20 Episode results for "Hari Sreenivasan"

The Civil Token Sale is Live

ZigZag

27:57 min | 3 years ago

The Civil Token Sale is Live

"This zigzag the podcast about changing the course of capitalism, journalism and women's lives. I'm Newsom Roti and our second season officially kicks off on October eleventh. But we are very glad you're here because we have a special episode this week, why? Well, because the blockchain experiment that we have been part of that we've been documenting all through season. One civil is actually hoping for business. The civil tokens finally went on sale. With that. The civil token sales open. We're going to go behind the scenes at this attempt to use crypto currency to save journalism Ross gonna talk about all the PR that this show has gotten recently and what that means for our business. Is it all good and Jen? And I are also going to talk about men men in public radio in particular, attempting to come back from banishment. After the metoo movement. Jim point, my co-founder and I will be back in a sec. Hades Manezh will be back to zigzag in a sack, but I wanna tell you about another podcast that I'm co hosting medium playback on each episode. We invite a great writer into the studio to perform a recent story that they wrote for medium, then I break it down with them. We talk about their big ideas from the story. So here from future as baritone day, Thurston on tracking down his online data Roxie enga- on choosing to have weight loss surgery this week. Mike Montero explains why he thinks designers should need a license. Check out the show at medium dot com slash playback or search for it. On your favorite podcast app. Happy token day, John happy token day minutiae. Okay. So let's be in not the wherever not transparent, but in that spirit today is Tuesday, September eighteenth twenty eighteen, and this is the day that the cryptocurrency called civil has gone on sale. And if you have no idea what we're talking about, that's okay. PBS NewsHour weekend did a really great feature on civil. It only took us twelve episodes to explain than they did in eight minutes free. Well, I think I mean, granted without the tears and the but they did a great job. So let's play a clip from the host Hari Sreenivasan describing like what's happening with the token sale because I think it's it's pretty clear this week. Civil is offering thirty four million tokens of its crypto currency to the public, which will eventually be traded on exchanges just like bitcoin. The price of each civil will fluctuate depending on. On demand, the company is aiming to raise at least eight million dollars and civilised setting an upper limit at twenty four million dollars to discourage people from speculating. The money will be used by the civil foundation to fund grants to journalism projects. In addition to raising cash, the goal is for the civil token to tie together a community of people creating and supporting journalism in the civil network, we encourage. Yeah, I think I have to tell you, Dan, I got was diving into our in mailbox this morning, and we got an Email from Hillary written in all caps saying, I love you to being transparent kick ass women entrepreneurs who seek to deliver reliable journalism, but because I don't know or care much about civil or tokens, kind of wish that the amount of detail that you've been delivering was a little less and Hillary. I hear you. I feel like I hear you. 'cause you wrote me in all caps, but thank you for writing us. And it's weird done because for every Email that Hillary says, we get twenty emails that say, like, asking about all the gnarly details of this token sale. So Hillary standby, we're going to get to other female kick ass journalism entrepreneurship stuff. But we gotta talk token sell because there are a lot of zigzag listeners who are extremely invested pun intended in the details of this. So Jen, we're gonna turn to you to the civil token news desk manned by woman'd by gen plant chief crypto correspondent, what's the latest John. So there are some announcements that came out over the past few days leading up to the sale that I think are important for listeners to know. Particularly if you're involved in the actual sale and buying tokens civil is extending the sale to October fifteenth, which is two weeks longer than they had originally announced. And that's presumably to allow more people to get in. Involved so that they can ensure that they're going to reach that eight million dollar soft cap or like the lowest amount that they're willing to operate with and sell these tokens for. So that does give them more time. Give await Jan, explain why they've extended the token sale by two weeks. This is going to piss off some of our listeners or a lot of listeners in aren't. Yes. Go ahead. So civil has found a way to accept direct wire transfers with the US dollars to buy civil tokens directly, meaning that you don't have to register with token founder. You don't have to buy e. You still have to register with civil, right, but which a lot of people are going to go. They just went through a bunch of hoops to try it out. We've actually already got feedback, Brian, rotas, an Email that said, glad to see the civil added this option. I only wish it had been there six weeks ago before I went through this whole process, opening a coin, basic count and getting a meta mask account to buy the tokens. My east purchases already declined in value. And then he just basically says, please be consistent and timely. I think that is very fair. I do too. However, however, here we go. Remember you guys back at the beginning of season one. When we talked about this idea of using the podcast as a lab for experimentation, experimentation, one of the reason and yes, one of the reasons why civil has come up with this like work around or why they decided to put so many resources behind getting their idea engineers to figure out different ways to. Make it easier for people to join. The experiment is because of your feedback zigzag listeners. So actually, I think we achieved in many ways. Exactly what we set out to do, which was to test new technology to get regular people out in the world, trying it giving real-time feedback, and then the engineers were listening in. They built it back in, right, I do cool. And I think they zigzag listeners. It's ad venture to say, you know, they really are pushing this as a consumer token zigzag listeners are the consumers here a lot of the consumers. I think a good percentage of the people that are trying this out that just turned my stomach when you said that because then it makes me feel like, wow, we have a responsibility, we do. Absolutely, absolutely. But I, I would say this, I completely understand Brian's perspective, and I also would say, can also see the other perspectives that you know these guys have been working really hard night and day to launch a new thing? Yes, nobody has tried before and. And they're trying to make it easier, and that's kind of part of the process of being an early adopter. Yeah, I think I think that's exactly right. So back to the other news, the other announcement this week, that one hundred percent of the proceeds of this token sale are going to go straight to the civil foundation, the nonprofit entity that writes grants for the civil news room. So the newsroom's will write grants, correct? Yeah, allegedly. Okay. So this is going to inferior, allow the civil foundation to get more good newsrooms onto the platform faster. So what do you think Jen, if the deal is the token sale ends if they hit twenty four million dollars like that's that an as of this moment Tuesday's September eighteenth from the afternoon, we have ninety thousand dollars worth of civil tokens have been purchased. Got any predictions for me will if we're going at that rate, it's going to take a long time. Judging by the last token sale on token foundry that we can have watch slowly roll out. It's called foam was a geo location token. Yeah, that didn't. It didn't have like a massive spike like the day of or the day after. So they did well, they did well and they, they reached their soft cap, but they didn't reach their heart cap. No, they didn't. So they needed the full time. So if that's the case, you're saying that it's going to go all the way to. I think it's October fifteenth. Is the last day? Yes, and that's that is my prediction. I think it will go all the way. I don't think they're going to reach the hard cap. That's my prediction. Okay. Okay. One more thing before we take a quick break. We got a voice memo from our listener, a man named Tom Hawkins just to put this on perspective. Gen being listened to zigzag really enjoying it. Hype, you succeed in fixing journalism. It is broken. I've got one question which is that I have done all of the things which I think unnecessary forgetting civil tokens, including sunny out to meta musk, Gemini tug confined re pledging. An all of that and not really know at she supposed to do on Tuesday from Tuesday. I guess it will become clear, but I have some theory him and presumably have to buy some civil tokens on cheese day. Can you just explain exactly what has to happen from that point? Thanks. Bye. Tom, thank you, first of all for recording voice memo. And I think that you are a reminder that you can get people to register for things to take quizzes to even by cryptocurrency. But at the end of the day, if you don't tell them where to go to actually by the tokens, that's on the civil, really? Yes, it is. And I mean, technically, they would say they definitely have and that they've provided webinars and it's on the website and there's a link, but you really have to look, I gotta say you still have to really kind of like dig around to find the right step by step process to finally get there and like what happens? How many quizzes you have to take. It's it's it's not an easy process. It's not an easy process and Tom, we salute you for your fortitude. All right. We'll Jen and I are going to be back in a sec. We're gonna talk about, well, some things that makes you feel comfortable. We'll be back in a sec. Hiring used to be hard, multiple job sites, stacks of resumes, confusing review process. 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Zigzag is supported by care of a monthly subscription vitamin service that delivers completely personalized vitamin and supplement packs right here door. He start with the fun five minute online quiz by diet health goals, lifestyle choices, and you find out which vitamins would be best for you. Then you get all the research that supports care of recommendations backed by a scientific advisory board. A portion of every sale goes to the good plus foundation, which gets important prenatal vitamins to expectant mothers in need, go to take care of dot com. Use the promo code zigzag for twenty five percent off your first month of personalized care of vitamins. That's take care of dot com promo code zigzag. Zigzag is supported by first Republic Bank. At first Republic, your personal banker is like a friend. That's why they're title is personal banker because they genuinely care about you and your financial future. When you open a new checking account, buy your first home and start planning for retirement. Your first Republic personal banker will be there helping you through it all to connect with a banker, who cares about you and your finances? Like a friend visit first Republic dot com. Today member FDIC equal housing lender. You're listening to zigzag. It's me and Jen in David studio. Hello, John, though, before we talk about things that make us supremely uncomfortable, let's talk about something really quite extraordinary. That happened to us, which is we are journalists reporting on a platform for journalists, and we've been covered by other journalists quite a bit this week hashtag. Meta hashtag fricken meta New York Times and PBS your times PBS NewsHour coin base. Hello approval. Right. Which actually got a lot of play on Twitter, which is interesting. What was the response to us being featured in the New York Times like in your life? In my life, my friends and family and community. Everyone was extremely supportive and look like like lots of like flurry of emails with lots of exclamation text messages, lots of Instagram messages and DM's, and Twitter responses. You know the most important is when your family of course excited. And did you did it feel like it was like legitimate, like legitimizing what you've been up to, and they're were like, oh, Jen. Like we're a little worried about her, but then the New York Times going to put the seal on a of approval on it and you're like, see, I'm not. I haven't lost my mind. I feel like it should not be that way, but yes, it does feel that way. Yeah. I mean, I think they are still one of the most respected and important media organizations in the world. The failing New York Times. Yes, the failing new, your come. I think it's funny how as much as my Email inbox blew up. My parents in boxes blew up from their friends because if we think the New York Times matters people our age right boy, does it matter to people sixty plus? And I think it was validating for them. Yeah, can I say one last thing about press coverage of us? The one that makes me a little bit nervous is. Coin base. So I had a wonderful conversation with a reporter so I should explain what coin bases, right? So it's a, it's the place where you can buy crypto. They also have some articles where they do features on people who are doing things. They called the one with me, the marriage between crypto and community journalism conversation with Mnuchin. Rhody host of the podcast zigzag a crypto and blockchain explainer, and I had this wonderful conversation and they did a beautiful right up and it looks great, but I guess it's going to attract a different type of person writing. It's gonna be people who are into already really into crypto and who are going to. I don't know. It's like the crypto Bros. that we talked about in season one that we were really nervous. We're going to, you know, there's a, there's a chaos element to the crypto community, and I feel like I need to gird myself against some of the things that we've mentioned that we were nervous about during season one, but didn't really have. Happen just like nastiness like you're concerned that the trolls will come out because of this. Yeah, you know, women in intact generally bring out trolls MRs. Oh, that's what I'm a little worried about. But Mosey. Onto another fun topic, Jen. I know. I'm sorry. So there were two men in public radio who wrote articles explaining what's happened to them in the months since they were let go from there are public radio jobs. So Junge Massey, whose with the CBC and Canada, lots of extremely criminal allegations against him for sexual assault. Among other things sort of wrote an article which I admit I have not read. I couldn't bring myself to do it. And then the other one is John hawkenberry who was a host at WNYC we're Jenin I worked and actually you worked on the show that he hosted the takeaway for many years. Yes, six years. And so he wrote an article that Harper printed that made me cringe because he sort of compared himself to Lalita. And like literally, he literally compared himself to lowly to like not just the book, the actual character rights. You know what? You and I have struggled about bringing this up because on the one hand, we're like, why give him more air brain's base, etcetera. I never had any dealings with him, but like whatever we're doing our own thing. Why bother talking about this? However, I do think it is. It marks a moment which is that the metoo movement has clearly opened a new chapter, which is the idea of the perpetrators coming back and trying to find their place in society. You know, we talked a little bit on the show about how the metoo movement and our experience at WNYC inspired us to make this decision. And it was in a much bigger kind of philosophical decision. But you know, I did work with him for six years, so him coming out with this. This piece is brings up a lot. Can I ask you what it brings up? It's a long. Meandering strange essay, and it brings up the process of working as a young. I was a young producer when I first started working with him, and then I kinda winded my way up the ranks of the show over the years to become a senior producer on that show and worked with him very closely. And it brings up, you know, the experience of being a female producer working with a with a male host who was considered, you know, kind of a genius to be protected, and and the piece is deeply upsetting to read because so clearly not a genius in the know it's bad writing GIO. I, I will give so much credit and I just wanna thank g Tolentino of the New Yorker for for just noting how bad the writing is in this piece at also Mike Pesca of slate. They both wrote wrote really strong essays and really took the time. First of all, it takes a long time to write to read his essay, but as a flame, seven thousand words or some. Yeah, as a former producer who worked with him for a long time. Ah, really grappled with how much time I should even dedicate to both reading it to thinking about all of the the women that have spoken out against him to to what my own experiences were on. That show is a producer trying to make a show every day and be a serious journalists and be taken seriously. So it's it brings up a lot. Do you believe in redemption? Well, not after reading that essay for him. No. Well, because there's no me, there's no apology. There's no taking responsibility. There's none of that. It's the opposite of that. Yeah. And can I just say like for anybody listening who thinks like, oh, this is like it's not just people in media or women in media. I, the other thing that we get a ton of in our Email inbox is women talking about either some specific metoo instances that they had or again, the same booth thing that we talked about, which is this idea of wanting to own your work that you have to prove every choice that you make or that. You I, I don't know how to put it. It's not just not just proved, but not be excoriated for it every day. Yeah, we get a lot of stories in our Email inbox from women of all industries, talking about this idea of having had enough for many reasons and doing their thing. And so that's makes me happy. Can I just give an anecdote we can we can choose to cut this out or not yet. Sometimes I like to tell the story of how I worked on that show for so long and thought that that was just normal, that people would act like that. Yeah. And I, especially as like an experience for a young woman as a journalist, I thought it was normal. I thought you had to put up with it with depart constantly questioning my choices, editorial choices, authority as I moved up the ranks. Yeah, at WNYC in at the takeaway. And then when I finally decided I needed to get off of that show. Yeah, and I did have the support to do that and to move on. A different show. I went to work with Brian Lehrer who's a local host here in New York City who's also a one man or so wonderful, white man, and he couldn't full white man. And I was serving as acting executive producer for another woman that was on maternity leave, and I'd never had that experience with him and remember thinking, wow, this is not normal this. It was not normal. Yeah, I spent the first six years of my professional career thinking it was. Can you tell the other story though that really, I? I was really funny what you said, how you met someone who works at another median situation here in New York City, a dude who was like after you told them like your career story. He was like. I just kept getting promotions. I didn't really do anything, not exceptional. I just knew in this guy's great. He he's super sweet guide. He. He basically said, oh, no, I know it's because I'm a white man. That's like six feet tall, and and they said, what can we do? What can we do to help you keep advancing? He literally said I was failing up and that's crazy to me that guy down. I never had to deal with this stuff that never would have occurred to me see from my perspective, I'm like, I'm going to work as hard as the next man, but actually I wasn't working as I was working for murder by some of the night. I mean not to say that, like all that that's not fair. But no, of course, lots of like men work very hard at work as well. It's not for me, the experience that I'm talking about wasn't about working harder now working hard. It was about having to deal with a person that bullied so consistently and also harass people on the show which took away from our ability to do a good job. Day and feel proud of the work that we're doing fully proud like without have. It's so distracting. And then to see him not take responsibility for how talented that is over many years. It's just exhausting. But here's the thing. He thought it was normal to Jen. Do you know what I mean? Well, if you read that say, why you're right? You're is. It did. We did not. He did not think it was more like he, he thinks he's a genius, anything he can do anything he wants? Yeah, it's a little bit. Okay. You gotta read my favorite couple lines from Mike Pesca piece in slate. We will link to this by the way on our website and our newsletter Pesca writes about hawkenberry piece. It is logorrhoea as apologia. It is the most embarrassing work. I have ever read written by someone whose work I once respected, and I've read late Seymour Hersh. Tykes say that and I've read Seymour Hersh let me tell you. I know from stupid. So good. Right? So season two, it starts Tober. Eleventh with a special double episode bringing you exclusive information? No, it's a report about something really interesting that we're going to tell you about on October. Fourth, that's in two weeks. We will have a sneak peek of season two available to listeners. You know, I've been talking about this though. I've been saying like, if you haven't heard zag go back and binge the first twelve episodes, and you made a very good point the other day. I just thought that's a lot to ask. Really, why don't we just ask people to listen to the first tune if they're really into it and share it with someone that they know is would be into it? Yeah. And then if there, if those people are really into the first two, then then, yeah, sure go for and bitch. But I, I think the ask should be to to get people to listen to the first two because that way they get to know us. They get to know what we're doing and what what the blockchain is, and then then they can dive into the other episodes if they want. But I just felt like the ask of binging twelve episode series is a little can't. So when you're running your own business, those are the types of things that you have to think of. You have to think about messaging. You have to think about the call to action time to go. Episode sort of produced by me, ten points on TV. Herman is our audio engineer and just such a lovely guy and composer zigzag comes from stable genius productions in partnership with civil. We are very proud members of radio topiary from Rx. I'm new summer ODI and thank you so much for listening. Wait. I should have told them to subscribe to the newsletter zigzag pod dot com. You just did there. I want you guys to feel like you can talk openly, so I'm going to turn off my recorder, but do you mind just giving me like a hoot and a holler. So I have that. Thank you. Labor Day honors the American labor movement. So it's the perfect time for us to reflect on some of the happiness that we get from our work life leading up to this Labor Day. Three panoply shows happier with Gretchen. Rubin signed hustle school with Chris Gelo and happier in Hollywood dive into how could all be working more efficiently, learning a new skill, launching a side hustle, contemplating a career, change networking and saving more. If you haven't listened to happier with Gretchen Rubin, it gets personal as Gretchen brings her practical manageable advice about happiness and good habits to a lively thought provoking podcast, joined Gretchen Rubin and her co host and sister Elizabeth craft this summer and beyond to learn about how you can have a happier Labor Day and more fulfilling work life long, share your own experience using the hashtag happier Labor Day, new episodes available, weekly on apple podcasts, Google podcast, or wherever you like to listen. Radio too. Ex-.

Jen John hawkenberry New York Times civil foundation Brian Lehrer Mike Pesca Gretchen Rubin WNYC Twitter Hillary producer Hari Sreenivasan ZipRecruiter Tom Hawkins PBS NewsHour Mike Montero Ross writer Jim point
Amanpour: Atul Gawande, Julie Andrews, Emma Walton Hamilton and Guillaume Long

Amanpour

56:48 min | 1 year ago

Amanpour: Atul Gawande, Julie Andrews, Emma Walton Hamilton and Guillaume Long

"We expect a lot from our homes. They're more than a place to hang your hat there where you try your hand at Gardening and new recipes where you rest and recharge where you work and play and that's why at homeadvisor or committed to keeping your home up and running whether you need to repair and overloaded appliance or you're looking to create a backyard. Retreat worthy of a summer station used the homeadvisor APP day or night and we'll find a local pro to get the job done right whatever you need. We'll do everything to fix your well. Everything download the homeadvisor APP to get started and welcome to employ. Here's what's coming up. We must treat this virus with respect and attention. It deserves as blame. Games and CORONA VIRUS CONSPIRACIES RULE. The day calls for an independent investigation into the outbreak. This and a lot more with the eminent surgeon and author of being mortal. Dr Oz told. Go One day then. Each story will take us on a grand adventure. Family bonding in lockdown the inimitable Julie Andrews and her daughter on their new podcast bringing our favorite children's books to live plus as Kobe fixed. Deep Wounds on Latin America Hari Sreenivasan jobs to Ecuador's former foreign minister. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour working from home in London amid an ongoing uproar about the global response to the coronavirus pandemic the. Who is holding? Its annual meeting in Switzerland by teleconference of and the director. General says the world has been humbled by a very small microbe and he's renewing his call for unity to defeat it but more than one hundred countries are calling for an independent investigation into the outbreak and it spread put in the United States which has the most debts and infections in the spotlight and China as well where Beijing has faced intense scrutiny. Ever since cove erupted their first but President Zhang Ping down is accused insisting the system acted with openness and transparency in this read an exclusive interview with China's leading medical expert correspondent. David Kaba finds an unusual admission of the authorities initial findings. The answer is no and in the. Us Many have turned to Dr. Anthony Found Shield. The Nation's top infectious disease expert as that medical voice of reason couldn't in China. It's Dr John. Non Sean the well-known respiratory experts speaking exclusively with CNN at compare with foggy always the adviser of the president always always been spending in beside the president. Perhaps he does not physically stand next to president. Xi Jinping but John has the trust of China's central government his advice sparks immediate action take for example. Wuhan's unprecedented lockdown on January eighteenth. Five days before the city was shutdown. Jong traveled to the original epicenter of the outbreak. He questioned the local health officials and the verb beginning. The Silent Jong gained international praise for his work on SARS seventeen years ago. Believed this rapidly spreading novel. Coronavirus was far more devastating than being portrayed by health officials. I suppose they are very reluctant to answer my question. The local authorities didn't like to tell the truth and that time publicly will hunt health officials as late as January. Nineteenth labeled the virus has preventable and controllable join pressed harder for the actual numbers and when he got them. He headed to Beijing on January twentieth. He briefed the central government and within hours he was addressing the nation in his live interview on state run. Cctv UN-USA JOAN. Reveal that human to human transmission was likely and as proof of that he said. The virus had already infected multiple medical personnel. That's very dangerous bill. Showing these kind of disease is very contagious. So I suppose at that time. Central GOVERNMENT LISTENED TO COM- common subjection wise within three days. Wuhan went into a harsh lockdown that lasted seventy six days yet even with China's Central Government. Now taking the lead. There is still skepticism. Over the official numbers Jong believes it's partly political and says the Chinese government would not benefit from under-reporting. The government have got the lesson probe that outbreak of Saas. Seventeen years ago they had announced one number the stack or the cities or the department. Report the true number of diseases. So if you do not do that you will be punished. What do you believe to be the origin of this virus in particular? I think the origin nece avert difficult to draw any conclusion at the moment. But I believe this kind of disease is originate from animals. Mike you spent. Us President Donald Trump and secretary of state. Mike Pompeo have said they have evidence that it leaked from a lab named the Wuhan Institute of Raji and origin theory many international medical experts and even US intelligence say is highly unlikely now it seems more and more medical experts. Do not believe that it originated there. Do you feel that was certain? Taping soul took up two weeks the very crews and be checkup. Prove nothing about it. No I don't think so. And Dr Jones main focus now is preventing a second way in Washington. The White House has repeatedly tried to deflect blame but many say the numbers speak for themselves one and a half million Americans have been infected and nearly nine hundred thousand are dead dog to go one. Day is a surgeon at Brigham and women's Hospital in Boston and is a staff writer at the New Yorker. His powerful book being mortal about aging and death has never been more precision as corona virus causes all of us to engage with mortality in a way. Perhaps we never did before and Octagon is joining me now from Boston. Welcome back to a program. I just wanted to ask you whether you think at this stage it's useful to try to figure out where this virus came from in terms of. Is it a? Is it a Wuhan lab is it. Not What do you think of this call for an investigation and independent investigation into the? Who and and the rest of it. The investigation into the response I think could be useful. I think the lesson over and over again when it at the moment win and started to the response over the first few weeks to response today. Is that when you suppress truth? When you said press the facts of what's happening with spread it ends up harming life it ends up making matters worse and we keep seeing have to relearn that over and over again so the secretary of Health Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex as are said to the assembly in an apparent attempt to conceal this outbreak at least one member state made a mockery of their transparency obligations with tremendous cost for the entire world. China was not named as a target of this investigation but it's already fired back and said it's premature to immediately begin an investigation again. What do you think when you look at this when you've obviously done a huge amount of observation and research and you're now in the mitigation phase in the hospital there? What do you think about its origin? Where do you think it started? Well I don't think we have enough information about the origin. It's it's it's clear. It came from animals. I think the evidence is that it started in animal species transferred to humans. There's a lot of inconsistencies about whether it emerged in a wet market or somewhere else in the very very beginning And understanding that and understand where we went wrong and detection and how we can fix that S- important and then in the response as it spread then the refusal of of The Chinese government in the in the beginning and the WHO to recognize human to human transmission was occurring really understanding. Why that happened. And then even today we still are in a phase where we are not always willing to bring the truth four and allow public health authorities and clinicians to speak about what they see so this is critical. When when you say we you mean the United States because obviously there's been firings as being demotions and even the CDC is being sidelined. Many many. Say I mean this is the world's preeminent global sort of medical and scientific location for precisely these situations in pandemics and yet it's kind of nowhere to be seen now now we're in the United States. Now I'll say that we hear is us. We are the epicenter of a disease in the world and we are still behind on being able to Make testing happen. Acknowledged that we're short and then create a national strategy to make push testing forward to have consistent Said a messaging about what it takes to reopen effectively. You know we're we're in this. We're we are struggling in a strategy that is not effective when you shift from saying okay. We're in lockdown in contain. The Disease Sang. Can now. We're GONNA live with the disease but then Then you have the White House saying to the. Cdc You cannot release your sixty three. Page blueprint for averting harm and instead of water down to six vague flowcharts. That are that are laid out. Let me ask you because you are obviously at Brigham and women's Hospital in Boston in relation to you know trying to contain it. How is it going in in Boston in Massachusetts and what are your fears with the exiting plan? Have you seen any deep? I Dunno spies as anything that worries you about the current plan in your state well so we're in Massachusetts which has been a hot spot and I think actually I'm quite optimistic about our potential to be able to reopen gradually ineffectively. The critical part of the reason for optimism is. I'm in a hospital system where we have. Seventy five thousand workforce we have been at work through the pandemic where larger than seventy five percent of the population of US counties and we have managed to keep our hospital setting and a workforce safe. It is not. It's not that it's perfect. But we've kept the hospital from being a source of transmission. How do we do that? There's a basic combination therapy. You kind of drug cocktail of four things that we've implemented and when you put them together each of them are flawed but when you put them together we're finding it works and those are social distancing at work Being able to make sure you have proper hygiene third is screening for symptoms where you haven't been consistent about doing that in the broader population. But we've every day I come to work here I am asked. Do I have any of the key? Symptoms including just the sniffles. And if I do than I need to stay out of work and get a test Before I can come back and then the fourth element is masks and we all wear masks now work. I've got mine here somewhere and And where expected to the You know when we're out and about that's what we're doing and that has worked when we think about translating that into the Public. You're now seeing that rollout. You meant you know on CNN. Just mentioned apple is rolling out exactly these four pillars distancing masks screening hygiene and. I have reasons to be very optimistic. Work we need We need leadership at at State Federal and International Levels. That that start saying do however we all looking out for one another in making culture because the fifth component is we have a culture here where we are backing each other and supporting each other to make sure these things happen? So that's really important. I'm you've laid out essentially a game plan for how to mow safely live with this thing until there's a vaccine until this kind of therapeutic when you look around the wider United States I mean. What do you think might happen if others? Don't do this because you can see that. There are other states other areas of coming out of lockdown but not with the kind of rigorous five point. Plan that you've just outlined. Yeah worrying to me that people have not as we come out. Discuss coming out of lockdown number. One that we're doing in in many cases prematurely but even in the places where we are doing it in a fashion than waiting for the numbers of cases and hospitalizations. To come down. We are not talking enough about the idea that you have to know how to do each of these things. Well for example Handwashing it is far more effective. That when you have handwashing at least ten times a day every time you go into a space with a group of people you should sanitize your hands going in should sanitize going out in every couple of hours while you're amongst people in a workplace or elsewhere or to take another example masks it is a huge flash point The value of masks. Is They protect you from me? Because the way we now know. The virus spreads primarily sees. Cough Talk Grease the small respiratory droplets that get sent out can carry virus and we are infectious even before we know we have symptoms so masks have been a flashpoint that said the evidence so far suggests that if if most of us wear masks so it sixty percent of us or more wear masks that are at least sixty percent effective which a double layer cloth masks that fits well is that will shut down the virus and so we will yelling screaming There will be people who will not follow along. We don't need perfection. We just need to put these pieces together enough that we're able to shut it down. Well here's a question all we you in the United States in a position to not just not have perfection but to have enough to create a shutting down mechanism and you talked about leadership and international cooperation. I just WANNA play a snippet of a speech that that President Obama gave to graduates over the weekend. I mean most of it was for the graduates but he did acknowledge and talk about the lack of leadership in the United States. Let's just play it more than anything. This pandemic is fully finally torn back the curtain on the idea that so many of the folks in charge know what they're doing a lot of them aren't even pretending to be in charge. I mean Dr Going Day that that is a pretty harsh indictment from a former president obviously didn't name names but is it a problem when you talk about mosques and the fact that the top leaders are not modeling that President Trump is not modeling that and other and other issues. Is that a problem in a situation. Which could actually as. You've just pointed out by massive percentages. Get this thing under control. It is a problem. First of all you need a president who is not actively encouraging people to flout guidelines to take off their masks to To to get out into settings when we we still have hundreds of thousands of active infections in currently in Going on in the United States and so it it. It works against the principle that we're moving to phase where we're trying to say we know how to avert harm. We need our leaders to back that capability. You can't be embarrassed about wearing a mask. You can't suppress Detailed guidance that helps people know what to do while at the same time implementing in the White House. The very rules that everybody should now That said what I've been impressed by throughout this whole process is that in many countries where you haven't had adequate leadership. The public is learning at an incredible speed. They locked down before. Many places had shelter in place orders. Florida lockdown just as effectively as Massachusetts. And you saw the curve Come down the Qurban deaths the Kurds hospitalizations. And you're seeing those Ben and I think the public response to whether the virus is Actually dangerous still whether it's out there or not and people are going to be cautious coming out and they are actively learning. I see out on the streets and in many many communities. People are wearing masks that learning how to pay attention right when you have a sniffle that is an indication that you could have corona virus needs. Stay home what we were. We haven't gotten good at doing recognizing there is more and more testing capacity. Go get a test before you go out in public or into the workplace. Where mass until you have that if you have any kind of mild symptoms can I? Can I get back to the to the work that I named at the beginning being mortal your book and the rest of the work you've done on that and you examine what it means? And how your you know? Theories of Khair particularly terminal situations have evolved over the years. So I just want to ask you because clearly you know everybody is in this situation right now. Just give us. What is the heart of your kind of revelations to yourself and what you want us to know about it? Here's the thing that you would have thought it wouldn't take a whole book of interviews to to find and that is that people have goals and priorities for their life besides just surviving. Those goals and priorities differ between people and differ over time and if And we need to ask people what those goals and priorities are in order to ensure that our care that we're providing is not out of line with what actually matters to them we around the world ask. People who are facing serious illnesses chronic illness or terminal illness that we asked those questions less than a quarter of the time and as a result care is often out of out of line with people's goals. And then you get suffering so here. We are in the middle of terrible pandemic. It is most dangerous to people who have a serious illness. My mother is eighty three years old than has a medical shoes of her own. And we have to have that. We've had that conversation. What really matters to you what are you. What are you willing to go through what you not willing to go through as you consider treatment? What's the minimum quality of life? You consider important and the result of that is that it's not about quantity of life versus quality of life when you are able to say. I know what matters to me about my colleague light and I want to protect that. The evidence is you don't end up living shorter when the treatment aligns with what you care about your quality of life you live at least as long and often longer and that matters in this pandemic because as you face the possibility of being infected yourself anyone of us we need to ask. What do we care about if we have kids? Who who who? Who would? Who would take care of the kids? If both parents are your solo parents would become ill. And you're incapacitated what really matters. These things are things. We're all starting to and dignity. Obviously is a big part of this but I wanna ask you finally because I don't know whether you've noticed. It is quite alarming to see every aspect of this politicized I mean tribal politicisation including the death figures. Somma saying they're higher than others are saying. They're lower they should be. What is your commentary on that? And what do you think? The actual death numbers are going to be revealed as higher or lower than nearly nine hundred thousand. That exist right now. Officially yeah so first of all this goes back to the very beginning of our conversation. Our our resistance to hearing bad news is Can Be Dangerous and the reality. Is that the death. Numbers are Are GonNA turn out to be much higher than we understand Partly because so few people have been tested and as we understand you know so that means some people are dying from a Corona Virus. That aren't ending up in the in the county numbers. And we're GONNA find that. Those numbers are even higher and that is not the end of the world. It just means that we double down on doing what we're learning works and being honest with ourselves. What's working what's not working. How bad is it getting Hope is not about denying that there is bad news. Hope is about being able to say I can. I can wake up every day. Look at the cards I'm dealt and no I'm going to be able to make the best of it and I think we have the ways to do them. Well that's a good note to end on. Doctor will go on day. Thank you so much for joining US tonight. And some of those methods exiting must be implemented. Of course some states now operate a slow return to normal. The National Association for Stock Car AUTO RACING NASCAR was officially back on Sunday. After a two-month hiatus called the real heroes four hundred the comeback race on frontline health workers and it is part of a collaborative initiative among a dozen sports leagues called the Real Heroes Project that pays tribute to medical professionals fighting covid. Nineteen the heroes today of course and now around the world. In lockdown many are also enjoying some mandated family time and many attorney into books for solace every child's favorite nanny. The loved by families for generations. Judy Andrews wants to help families bond during these exceptional times and famous and comforting voice has now come to Julie's library a new podcast where she reads children's books along with her daughter. Emma Walton Hamilton. Who's a children's author and also producer and they're both joining me now from their respective homes in New York. Judy Andrews Emma Walton Hamilton. Welcome to the program can I? Can I start by asking you on? It's good to talk to you again. We spoke a little while back when your latest memoir that you did with your daughter. Emma homework came out. And we're following the conversation now. Who knew that would be talking in this situation? So tell me Jimmy. I made you go to this library. Sorry well in fact Christiane this was something that Emma and I had been planning. We were going to do a podcast. For Children's entertainment and hopeful harsh education. Enjoy quite a while ago but because of the bars and was ruled four lead and escalated a little bit and It's up and running and and and hopefully helping families have some entertainment time with it over and maybe grandparents adjoining in I don't know but it's not just children's stories is everything to do with bringing children into the podcast Amaral. Let you explain a little bit about that. If you want to take it from there I just WanNa put it out there that you know. There are a lot of prime ministers and leaders who've actually specifically address children. You know the Prime Minister of New Zealand the Prime Minister of Norway. They've actually held news conference for them. They've talked about the tooth fairy. The Easter Bunny being essential workers. So it's it's really relevant and I wonder whether you can expand on that and the kind of work that's gone into this podcast absolutely thank you. It is really relevant at children are as as we all know are experiencing the effects of this extraordinary time as much as as adults perhaps even more so and what we're hoping to do. In addition to providing his mom said some some entertainment and some joy is to provide an opportunity for some social emotional conversation and learning and so the books that we choose and that we read we also have conversations about and we have guests who we invite into the library to speak with us about the social emotional themes in the book and we invite children to call in as well and share their ideas and favorite words and so forth so our hope is that the impact of the podcast is sort of multi direction and Judy you. We talked about. You know hoping to help people bond. I mean this is a time when kids and parents and grandparents of all sort of generations suddenly got locked down together in many cases. Not Everybody I know you. Youtube separated but it's kind of a wonderful time for families of gift of time to be able to bond. I wonder if that's part of what drives you in this helping families bond being the facilitator. Well I'm wondering actually if we're getting back to basics again that maybe we lost at for a while because it is making us think can rethink. What family bonding all about? And I'm sure it's it's at times I know Land Autism Net children. It's stressful with young ones particularly having home and keeping them in tank. But but I do think it's wonderful that getting back to sharing in things you can talk about. After his and discussed adducing gets lovely Those kind of things are the moment in full force. It seems and I'm so happy it's being picked up the people enjoy it. I think I would enjoy. I'm looking for product myself blue and television and you and I wonder because obviously because of the situation that you grew up in your parents separated in divorce and there was a period of time when you actually were separated from coast to coast and now you're separate it as well. Just talk to me a little bit about because you remained incredibly. Close you collaborate professionally. You're obviously very close as mother and daughter perhaps drawer on some of your experiences. A kid being separated from your mom for for a while the Mike Comfort kids today. Well it's interesting Christiane when I was a child and my parents were newly separated One of the things that my mom did was. She came up with the idea that she and I would write a story together and I would then bring it to my father during the holidays when I went to visit him for him to illustrate. And after which mom would bind it together for me as sort of a cherished family memento that suggested that we were still family. Even though we weren't together anymore and many years later that book became one of the Books. That we revisited and publish together and so. I think it's probably no accident that we continue to be creative together and I think to the extent that families and look for opportunities to have created time together whether it's writing a story or drawing pictures or listening to a podcast or cooking together gardening together just general creative together time. I think it's so so important now more than ever. I mean talk about creativity. You probably know the great relationships expert Esther Parral and I had her on the program a few weeks ago and she actually addressed the kids role in today's crisis. Let me just play a little bit? And we'll talk about it. She's been on. Our guiding is moment day able to continue to understand that freedom in confinement comes to our imagination. They're talking to dragons. They're talking to Kings. They're talking to imaginary people or the time we need to access our imagination is. That's the one place where we are. Currently not confined. It's an amazing way to put it. And Judy Andrews you've been you know creatively and imaginatively this inspiration for kids for generations and families and I wonder what what what kind of stories you're telling what you think of step rail saying kids and that kind of imagination you know hopefully a guiding families right now. Well we're sticking mostly in particular cost to picture books at sounds unusual but very fairly recently lost ten years picture books. It's a complicated because of cost so much about picture. Books are the designs in the beautiful illustrations but we search for books that we can capture locally and then with south VACs or music and discussion afterwards hopefully bring those books life and then maybe children will be interested enough to go out and try to find a book and they are available. We always make sure that it's an absolutely fascinating process to go through the books and find that we feel do make a contribution the whether it's through reading or even walking in your garden with your children and discovering what color lying under the bushes growing or nosing. Things is all part of what that wonderful woman's just said the the imagination is your freedom and I'm really thrilled to be a part of and I know ever is to rip astronaut about children's books of words and the magic they bring. We've been doing it now for about twenty years. Christiane said this is just an offshoot of a lot of the things that we've been doing for quite a while before I get back to 'em I just WanNa ask you about this. The tech quality of what you're doing I mean. Did you know how to settle this stuff up? We've got a great picture of. I think a closet or something where I think your grandson helped. You just stopped doing these. Podcasts in isolation how did that? How did that work? I'm in my office. In fact my grandson has for recording purposes. A we were recording an nearby. Very wonderful sound studio because of the virus and everything shutting down and being careful we decided to try and do from home will. There's all kinds of things you will know like bounce back and and all the things that matter in terms of sound as semi wonderful grandson. Amas some Sam built me a little recording studio in one of my closets and it's going to be surrounded by everything from frozen blankets and and the closet is stuffed with lows in a desk and the and the microphone and I go income swaddled myself so this no sound problems works absolutely fine and I think Emma's in assimilate closet in ups but we let ourselves out once in awhile and love about it but it works leaving the things you can find when you really have to make do is amazing and thank God exactly you. Have you have to make do with a little help from your grandson? That's great and you co wrote with your mother her autobiographies memoirs home and Homework and obviously there are a lot of stories about I mean this people are portraying a war this battle against this virus. But your mom was nine. I think when World War Two ended from you perspective as a kid when you were growing up. What stories did she tell you about that previous dramatic battle that either resonate now or how did you think of them when you were a kid growing up? Well they were very much part of the fabric of my child. And both my parents grew up during the blitz and at very specific stories of air raid shelters and and You know doodlebug flying overhead and of course the the story that Mepham tells in her in her memoir about being appointed that the person in her little town to sit atop of her era shelter. Shelter the whistle and blow it as soon as she could hear the doodlebug approaching so those those were at stories of my childhood absolutely and what I what I took away and understood. Most from those stories was the resilience that having lived through those times gave to my parents and both of them today. Talk about how similar. This time is living with the the unexpected. The idea that you never know what is going to happen and Living in that kind of fear of the unknown and I I hope that one thing that mom has talked a great deal about is that when the war ended there was this phenomenal celebration where people just poured out into the streets and lights were turned on and it was it was you could make sound express joy and I very much look forward to like that in our current situation. I hope it happens and Christiane may be great. Whatever is saying is that I think actually said to me that by helping the first memoir especially you learn so much more about the war that you re hadn't heard for me but you haven't really heard about a the other things that happened. I think it was a bit of the revelation slowly. Wasn't it well? It certainly was made it that much more. Personal course yeah. I'm really glad that you're talking across me. Bruce is is really and I wish we could go on. It's good. It's good so similar to the bonding during those days on the war. And it's wonderful that we do come together like that. Yeah a great lesson. Thank you so much Julie Andrews an Emma Walton Hamilton. Thank you very much for joining us. We expect a lot from our homes. They're more than a place to hang your hat. Your home is where you try your handed gardening and new recipes rest and recharge work and play. And that's why at home advisor we're committed to keeping your home up and running no matter what from the projects that creep up on you like appliance repairs. Gutter cleanings and Fox at fixes to the ones you look forward to like creating your very own backyard retreat worthy of summer vacation. We'll find local pros to help you get the job. Done right. Used homeadvisor APP day or night to get matched with the best pros for your projects. You can book and pay for more than one hundred projects with just a few taps plus see the tasks trending in your neighborhood whether you need a last minute. Fix routine home maintenance or an exciting new upgrade. Homeadvisor is standing by ready to do everything to fix your everything. Download the home advisor APP. Today to get started. And we're going to turn now to a country. Battling one of the worst corona virus outbreaks in Latin America bodies being dumped in the streets in Ecuador healthcare system faces near collapse and funeral. Home Struggle to Cope geom- long Ecuador's Foreign Minister and he was also ambassador to the United Nations. He's currently a senior analyst at the Center for Economic and Policy Research and he's speaking to a Hari Sreenivasan about Ecuador's unfolding crisis and the challenges facing Latin America as Corona virus grips that region. Thanks Christiane Long. Thanks for joining us. I get an update. Where is Ecuador in this pandemic? Now or Ecuador's think is one of the worst Cases of Kogo Nineteen Net in America. It has certainly the highest rates of infection capita all to see it's a small country in Latin America than other giants so in absolute terms of has less amount cases but in relative terms. It's huge and in fact even the Ecuadorian government is starting to recognize an indirect ways that you know it's official figures away Under revolted and. We're probably talking of five or six times more deaths from covid nineteen than The actual figures that are older. You can look at that into more detail is by looking. At the average you would average of the death. Toll would have no many had for these months so essentially margin April and comparing it with the national death-toll that having right now and you're having you know five six times even seven times more deaths than you would normally have in a normal year so it's a real tragedy. It's not just a sanitary is but a mortuary Christ was actual system collapsed now little bit Mondo Control. But it's been a major tragedy digging Jackie the situated in Ecuador which was the epicenter of this phenomenon. The images that we saw several weeks ago from key. We're just so stunning to anybody on the planet that started to watch them. It seemed that there was such an intense fear that people had even a funeral parlor had of dealing with the bodies where people were literally left on the side of the road has to do with a number of factors I think. Certainly the government was late at implementing. The right kind of measures and there was a lot of flip flopping but then are more long-term factors as well so it's Touche's have been collapsing over the last couple of years of major budget cuts in the Health System. With you know we don't exactly know the exact number but probably around ten thousand health workers laid off in the last couple of years major cuts in the health budget sexy being accompanied by an. Im Structural Adjustment Programme reformer. So you know a questions to be raised there and a general lack of leadership and then as you said. Fear kicked in Fixed and particularly in the funeral politics. A lot of close down those top attending people with with with the deceased member of the sees the family members and so You know this created a snowball effect. The state did intervene issue nor policy. Didn't act on time. And before long you had people with bodies in their homes and then all these on the streets then buddies the entrances of hospitals in molds and so on and so forth eventually the government created this forced to deal with this phenomenon but it was too little too late and you know. Hundreds of bodies were abandoned on the streets away which is a terrible tragedy and being a tropical city with often temperature in the high nineties or low hunt. Run hundred five nights you know honesty forty degrees Celsius it made the problem west the IMF close to six hundred fifty million dollars for Ecuador. How do you make sure that money gets to the people who need it? So the original plan of the was over four billion and over the last two months. Ecuador's not been able to deliver the kinds of reforms that I was asking for. You may recall the huge historic protests in October last year against the IMF program so the program has been very unpopular in Ecuador. This meant the Ecuadoran governors enabled to deliver the kind of reforms that I mef was expecting and so Money has been slow tricking in drake widow. Now there's this new off of a few hundred million in order to deal with the price itself was a really awkward right now you know promised. Imf reform hasn't been able to deliver it and it's kind of been abandoned by The people because it's the most unfiltered government since probably since democratization of Ecuador nineteen seventy-nine with the government probably has an. We'll have to see what the latest figures are depending on the pulse of between ten and fifteen percent approval ratings seven percent fruit credibility ratings. So you know abandoned by the people from below if you like but also abandoned from big capital from above so Lenders the IMF nobody really trust this government anymore and this is the worst case scenario for a government facing this kind of stuff. Well this pandemic in this crisis here economy. I think maybe point two percent. Gdp growth last year. The IMF is expecting possibly a six point three percent drop this year. How does Ecuador get through this a with already such a weak economy with essentially two months of decreased productivity? Yeah I mean. It has to be extremely creative. It has to go for Major non-surgical Policies Scott Free liquidity from the Central Bank to break a few taboos unfortunately You know it hasn't been late in paying state workers public civil servants But it's been very quick paying Bond Hall right and this is something that goes beyond Ecuador you know there have been several calls from Latin America from the region for moratorium on debt repayment for the issuance of SDR special drawing rights the IMF to be say that that would mean several billion for the region six billion record opera be twenty billion for for Argentina without these things. It's going to be a disaster inequitable and in Latin America. Let's talk a little bit about the politics here too. I mean former. President Correa was recently convicted on bribery charges. He's in Belgium. He denies these charges. But he's also prohibited from coming back into the country. He's going to be arrested if he returns. So on. Top of a pandemic. You still have some political uncertainty here. What has to be done to try to move the country forward so I think The main goal of the Marine administration has been to try and avoid a career comeback right. So they've done this through essentially The judicialisation of politics And trying to nail him for what I WOULD. I think. Most serious jurists Bogus charges and try to speed the process up because September is the deadline for the presentation of candidates for February twenty twenty one elections and if corre manages to present his candidacy. He can't run for the presidency because has already managed to change the constitution barring him from doing that but he could run for vice president. He could run for Congress and if he manages to enroll for the twenty two if every twenty twenty one elections. Then you're going to have a an emboldened political party caress political party with him on the ticket somehow and this is more modern or wants to wants to avoid so before September. They have to make sure that he's has a a guilty verdict which you know beyond appeal because right now correct and still appeal And that would definitely in from running would take. It would take away his political rights for twenty five years. So it's a race against time They really speeding up the whole process. You know the the judiciary in Ecuador's on the lockdown right now because of covid nineteen and yet the Korea trial is going forward. I should point out for audience. You worked with the railroad administration. Do you feel any sense of responsibility for any of these. Long term problems at Ecuador's had go past the administration that's in power now mean show. I mean I'm I'm I feel that. We made a great mistake in Choosing CARD president Let Him as success. Because at the end of the day he comes from author so yeah there's a great sense of responsibility there but you know in terms of the policies themselves it's been a u-turn one hundred and eighty degree you to health budgets being slashed Everything we were kind of doing is being reversed so I don't think we have that responsibility per se. I mean the new government came in. And they they they they should do. And unfortunately it's been it's been pretty disastrous now. President Merano in another departure from its predecessor has tried to make nice with President trump. He met him in. Washington is in talks with a trade deal is a working and I think it's working because President trump has little to offer Ecuador. Right now. There's been no significant increase in aid and cooperation administrational. Say Hey we just sent down a bunch of ventilators That was asked for. Yeah I think that's You know sort of very meagre help compared to Ecuador was was expecting from cozying up to president trump right so I don't think this is a really significant help. I think the United States is facing a difficult situation itself right now And I think you Ecuadoran governed could be asking Other things for example could be asking for a suspension of Flights Right now. There have been a number of people in fights to Ecuador. But Joe you know it would be risking the off the trump administration. Right now I don't think the United States is is playing a key role in supporting Latin American countries through the pandemic on the contrary it's actually exploded cove nine nineteen through these the is F flights To more than two hundred sixty ice eh lights in the last three months or so during the pandemic with a lot of Deported Latin Americans being affected with covid nineteen being deported. Back to to the whole country's just which is terrible situation. So has the United States deported. Cova positive People back to Ecuador so inequitable. We don't have any concrete information because the government is not been testing The PEOPLE DO DAKOTA derived in. Ecuador doesn't seem to be tested. So we don't really have Information that but we know that elsewhere in Latin America Deportees coming from the same detention centers where Ecuadorians have been held have tested positive. So the best example. Ramallo were Bolted Guatemalans have been testing Tested upon arrivals up to sixty four percent of them tested positives in to Successive flights landing in Guatemala. A huge amount of Guatemalans. A saying that up to twenty percents of Marlins infected with covid nineteen came from the United States as deportees. This is a huge amount. So there's no reason to think that this is not a trend. Throughout Latin America these detainees come from is detention center across the United States. Where we know because as being also a number of samples that have been taken as roughly a fifty percent ratio of these people that are in ice at dimension centers infected with covid nineteen living in largely cramped In close proximity with each other in clamps condition cramped conditions Which means that spread of the virus has been a big problem. It's been it's been widely reported in the United States is a big problem in the tension facility you in bathroom to the UN for awhile. What does the funding or lack thereof from the US due to an agency like the World Health Organization? Yeah so it's a terrible blow to the WHO Us funding to the WHO is around four hundred million a year. So you know w job budget is around two billion so four. Hundred million is a huge amount. No IT'S A. It's a fifth of its of several budget on. It's the worst time to do it because if the W. H. O. has a role to bathe. It's now that it has the play but certainly I think it's rather cynical on behalf of the trump administration doing this right now. The tickly saying the. Who with slow in responding when EVA even after the WHO had declared a public health emergency you know the trump administration was saying you know this is not a big problem when actually the trump administration was still kind of engaging with this kind of negationist approach to the to the problem and even after the wgn declared as a pandemic you saw The trump administration tried to minimize the risk. So I think secretly I run and particularly cynical on behalf of the trump administration to attack. Who in eastern to cut budget right now and I think is fundamentally for domestic electrical gains. The trump administration is going to use covid nineteen on denic to attack foreign agents and try to make this a foreign problem focusing on China and also on. Who I think this is. This is campaign mode and this is the reason why does the US administration have a legitimate concern over the WHO is kind of soft gloved to China? When it did matter early on again I think it could have. It could have more legitimate criticism of the W joe the US heated what the WHO said from the beginning right. So it's hard to say you were to slow when when they actually did say something the. Us ignored it. So this is a great deal of cynicism cynicism that now there's a debate as to whether. Who was too soft on China? Or not I mean we can have this debate w does not a perfect organization on quite well. I was as you said an ambassador. Un But right now the W chose paying a crucial role particularly in the developing world for Latin America. W Joe Role is very important. And it's now that it needs the most amount of funding if it needs to be reformed. Let's reform it but if we want it to be more successful we're going to need more or less funding. Sorry for the. Who WE'RE GONNA need much more funding the WHO because bid in a year? It's really nothing In context of the kinds of threats that we're seeing the WHO is going to be facing increasing the future when you look across the region. Does the pandemic threaten. I guess democracies overall. Yeah I think that's the major risk Last year was punctuated throughout the region by widespread protests against You know what I would call right wing governments but some of them very right wing governments right the ball so natto government. You know I would argue the Modano. Government inequitable the AMAS government in Bolivia. And and so on and so for Nash the MOE's Government and they were a series of unprecedented protests in Latin America Certainly the biggest protest in my generation inequitable huge protests in Chile. That were ongoing for months. This was unprecedented in decades. And so a lot of these governments have felt threatened and I think a several of them have wobbly maximize the possibility opportunity. That's been afforded to them by the lockdown. The different types of states of emergency that have been decreed curfews and other countries about curfews. Right in Ecuador has been a curfew from two PM onwards. Nobody can be out on the streets and that certainly demobilizes people Countries delaying elections in Ecuador. You elections are planned in February. Government is already trying to say. Well maybe febreeze too soon. You know this is highly suspicious right so I think a number women's a trying to maximize prices for political gains as well on cracking down on the opposition. Seventy game long. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me on your show. That's very worrying and also in Latin America. Brazil has the worst outbreak in the region with more than two hundred and forty thousand cases last week. We had the ousted health minister on the program to talk about accusations of incompetence against the Bolsonaro government's handling of this crisis. Now we learned that his successor has resigned as cases continue to spiral upwards and finally today is International Museum Day. It's time to celebrate the importance of the odds so many cultural sites closed of course because of the pandemic but are starting to reopen their doors from Saint Peter's basilica and Vatican City to the Acropolis in Athens to art hubs in Berlin and Paris. Meanwhile Amsterdam's rights museum is bringing a rembrandt masterpiece commonly known as the Nightwatch to our homes this digital images the largest and most detailed photograph ever taken of the nearly four hundred year old painting which shows a local militia group and is considered one of Rembrandt's most famous works. That is it for now. You can always catch US online on our podcast and across social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London. We expect a lot from our homes. They're more than a place to hang your hat there. Were you. Try Your handed gardening and new recipes where you rest and recharge where you work and play. And that's why at homeadvisor were committed to keeping your home up and running whether you need to repair overloaded appliance. Or you're looking to create a backyard. Retreat worthy of a summer vacation used the homeadvisor APP day or night. And we'll find a local bro to get the job done right. 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United States Ecuador Central Government Latin America president China President Trump Julie Andrews Christiane Brigham and women's Hospital Wuhan Boston CNN Chinese government Massachusetts Emma Walton Hamilton President Zhang Ping London Christiane Amanpour Hari Sreenivasan
Amanpour: Jim Sciutto, Gloria Steinem, Dr. David Eisenberg and Raj Kumar

Amanpour

58:50 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Jim Sciutto, Gloria Steinem, Dr. David Eisenberg and Raj Kumar

"Next year. Someone is going to challenge. Donald Trump for the White House, the primary right home is a new podcast that helps you figure out who that candidate or candidates might be the primary ride home is a daily podcast dropping every day at five pm. With the latest news from the campaign trail, who's up who's down, which issues are gaining traction. What is the best path to victory? The primary ride home is only fifteen to twenty minutes long. So it's the perfect way to catch up on what you missed on your way home. Search your podcast app now for primary ride home. Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Xeni offers thousands of forcible eyewear styles starting at just six ninety five no ridiculous markups. No hassles. Just quality affordable. I wear delivered right to you visits any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. Hello, and welcome to I'm on for his what's coming up. President Trump takes his fight squarely to China, barring its telecoms giant away from doing business with America, I'll speak with Jim Shuto, author of the shadow war, a new book about the dangerous conflict between east and west plus. Alabama's governor signs the most restrictive abortion law in the country, speak to the doctor on the front lines and the feminist warrior, Gloria, Steinem, and as President Trump unveils, his immigration plan. Hari Sreenivasan learned, how America's foreign aid impacts migration with Raj Kumar, author of the business of changing the world. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London, America's trade war with China. Just got hotter. President Trump has now signed an executive order, barring US companies from buying telecoms from sources deemed a national security threat target number one. While way, the Chinese giant, it leads the world in five g mobile technology, but the United States and some other western allies, fear that Beijing could be using the company to spy on them. It is something Weiwei's ways leadership vows never to allow, and they say, America's move will do significant harm to American companies. It comes of course, just days after President Trump high tariffs on thousands of Chinese imports. It's increasing the cost for American consumers, but many say it's a necessary battle to rein in China's worst trade practices. Jim Shuto served under President Obama's ambassador to Beijing, and he is the author. Of a new book, the shadow war inside Russias and Chinas secret operations to defeat. America is also anchor, and chief national security correspondent for CNN, and he's joining me now to talk about all of this from New York. Jim welcome to the program. Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate so you book really is timely. And we're gonna get into the nitty gritty of it. But I wonder when it comes to the shadow war is President Trump's move against wow way. A good counterpunch at this moment. Well, it may very well be necessary. It's an example of where the national security issue dovetails with the economic issue here. Right. Because the trade war principally economic here, but while way is a genuine national security concern. It's the view of US intelligence agencies. The concern at least the China has installed back doors as it were in the technology in a manufacturer that that makes much of this acknowledgee that makes the internet until it communications work, so that so that concern would be you install that equipment. And China has the ability to listen to phone conversations Hoover up information that's going through the web, that's a genuine concern, and that hits China then in two ways now the president this president has not hesitated to blur national security and economic issues here and connect them. Of course, the question is, is the president, imposing this now as a possible bargaining chip in the broader trade negotiations? I mean he's brought that up before regarding the hallway senior executive who is being who's been extra arrived to the US as well. That's something that Betty of his own administration, officials aren't comfortable with to blur those two things, but the two things are connected. And this president is confronting China on these issues in a way that previous presidents, democrat and Republican have not, so let's just get to the heart of this. I mean, a telecoms giant that, as you point out is not a privately owned company. It is owned by the Chinese state, and it is it has all the wherewithal to be a national security threat, if that's how China chooses to use it right? So there's no, there's no doubt about the possibilities of its nefarious possibilities, milk question. I mean, and here's one thing there is no firewall between the public and private sector in China for companies like this, whether they're called state owned enterprises are not. They have deep connections to the government deep ownership and, and the. Speculation from the Chinese government that they will is that they will operate by China's rules. And with China's national interests at heart and, and listen, US intelligence agencies make these assessments based on intelligence, the fact that they have concerns about back doors with technology, manufactured by hallway doesn't come from nowhere. So it is a genuine concern. Now, of course, the question question is, is the president going to hold the line on the national security side in the midst of this larger larger trade war trade negotiation is offering up the possibility? Well, that maybe we could let this go if we make a deal here, you'll remember, a few months ago was the Chinese mobile phone maker that the president affect through a lifeline to that company as something of an olive branch in trying to prove relations improve rather relations between the two countries. And when he did that there are loads of folks, that US intelligence agencies who were not very happy with that. So we'd have to see. How much the president holds the line both on trade and on national security here. Indeed. Let me just quick. Yes, you, you, you referred to the fact that while ways chief financial officer has been detained and she continues to be detained in Canada. The United States want sir because they say that she violated the sanctions policy of by selling to Iran components or other such things to Iran connect the dots if you like on this whole China while way, Iran national security issue. So this was this was a big push for the US to get China on board with sanctions against Iran to pressure. Boy, this back during the Obama administration to lead them to negotiating table, then low and behold, you have the nuclear agreement that you and I both covered for many months and years leading up to it. So, so the issues are connected you to get China on board now, now, the allegation here is that China was seeking to skirt continuing US sanctions, which have continued under this administrate. Because the Trump administration pulled out pull it pulled out of the deal. But it's interesting again issue we were talking about just a couple of moments ago. The president has again brought up the possibility that this legal proceeding here. There were US laws, which which the US says this Chinese executive has violated brought up the possibility of saying, well, listen again, if we could negotiate and make progress on these other economic issues, perhaps I could let that go. And I'll tell you I speak to people in the US Justice department who pursued this case, under US law, very aggressively certainly not comfortable with that possibility there. But again, they are connected. So this quickly talk about the Iran ratcheting up the US against Iran and people are basically saying that they've never seen such a rapid rise in pressure intentions from the United States is over the last week, or so it's gone from zero to one thousand if you like to put it that way. I wonder what you think is the strategy, but first and foremost, let me play you a sound bite from the Iranian. Foreign minister who's in Japan meeting with the prime minister there today. Escalation of tension, Indonesia and is not Indians just of anybody, but hit on will not be the party beginning escalation, but we, we certainly defend ourselves in response to any threat against our national security. So what are the people who you're talking to in the national security establishment in the in the US in Washington saying about America's strategy? It's not clear that there is a strategy, frankly and they, they are certainly not articulating it. And this is another case where we have within the administration, you have very public disagreements as to what both both the strategy and even the tactics are because oddly enough. It is President Trump who is who has. Now emerged. I don't know if you wanna say peacemaker, but the one who is seeking reconciliation here. He's speaking to the Swiss president today has has asked the Swiss to deliver a phone number in effect to the Iranian sort of a call me may be say, perhaps, we could talk on the phone and, and settle this while another faction of the administration led by John Bolton the national security adviser certainly you and I have no been no stranger to him and his aspirations for Iran, through the years has it is seen as been the one pushing for a more aggressive stance here, even to the point of presenting the president with hard military options for Iran. You've seen the reports of up to one hundred twenty thousand US troops sent to the region. In a remarkable thing to be presented for US president who has shown interest, only in reducing the US troop presence there. But it seems and some of this is coming out more publicly that President Trump is not comfortable with all this talk of war. All these discussions and is looking for an offramp here that said while in the administration, you have very hard steps being taken or presented that might lead down that path, including what we've already seen in the last couple of weeks, which is at additional aircraft carrier group going to the Persian Gulf, etc. It's not clear what the strategy is because you have two factions in the administration. One, the president one is national security advisor offering. Policy options, apparently in contradiction of each other now I wonder very briefly, whether you feel that there are similarities, you feel you know, the atmosphere is, is a little bit similar to the lead up to the Iraq war. Absolutely. In the United speaking to Senator Bob Menendez today about this very issue because what you have is evidence of the politicizing of intelligence here. We're well versed in what happened in the lead up to the Iraq war, and imperfect intelligence treated as very certain intelligence have helped leave the US towards that invasion here, and this comes down to this intelligence about missiles, photographs of missiles small ones, but missiles, nonetheless spotted on Iranian small boats in the Persian Gulf being installed on those boats. And you have to reeds of that intelligence in the same admitted in the Trump administration, one side, saying this is an offensive step that these missiles are being installed to attack US shipping in the Persian Gulf ULA. Another view of it saying that, well, this is a defensive response to the to the increased deployment of US forces there, of course, how you see that might very well affect how what decision you say is the next decision for the US. Are you more aggressive or less aggressive and based on the public statements about it? It's, it's possible at least that, that intelligence is being colored to suit the competing agendas of two factions at affect within the administration. It's a real concern. So let's get back to the meat and potatoes of your book the shadow war, and Russias and Chinas essential efforts to defeat the United States of America. Now, you write that all these countries no, that they cannot win a shooting war with the United States. However, they may see other parts to victory. And you pointed out, the for want of a better word asymmetrical warfare that China and Russia have been conducting for years now. Let's start. With china. What is trying to be doing to, to make to, to do what you've said in the in your title? It's a whole host of fronts, some of which Americans and folks around the world are aware of another that, they're just not one being the ongoing theft of trade in government secrets, I have a whole chapter in their focusing on one case, we're China over the course of four years, stole the plans for the F thirty five the twenty two and the C seventeen today or flying planes that look very similar to those with similar capabilities. They do this with great success. They done it for more than two decades, now that's a way to level the playing field with the US and in the event of war, which neither side wants, but in the event of war being able to, to compete China like Russia has deployed weapons in space, kamikaze satellites able to take out destroy disable US satellites in orbit. China has even tested and deployed what the US calls a kidnapper satellite. It has a grappling arm that could grab other satellites out of orbit to disable the US disable, the US military, the US civilian. Ian world China as well has created entirely new territory in the South China Sea. It's a land grab in the midst of as you well know, territory, claimed by half a dozen other countries including US allies there. And their broader strategy is the Chinese call. This winning without fighting is to make this progress below the threshold of a shooting war, and they've been very accurate in their calculations as to how far they can go without provoking a definitive US response. Yes. Usa's protested, the building of those islands in the South China Sea. But China built them they have them. They're not going away. Clearly the penalties imposed have not worked. And with a whole host of other things China's been stealing US technology for twenty years loads of US presidents have complained but China keeps on doing it. It's a remarkably effective strategy. Right. And we just saw some video of you flying over you exclusively able to fly over and see those manmade islands not so long ago. But I'm fascinated by what you what you call the Americans. Call the kidnapper and chemicals, e satellites tell us why that's so important. In other words, and President Trump has made space new frontier all veasley that's necessary. Right. Because so much of American and western daily life depends on the technologies enabled by satellites. Absolutely. People say the president's kind of kooky does talk about a space force. Whatever you call it there already is a US base force. It's the US air force base command, and they're working, they're struggling to defend these assets that the issue is, is that the US. Is more advanced than any country in the world. When it comes to space technology, and that's a vulnerability are US forces, there's a reason are smart bombs are smarter. There's a reason why US drone technology is used with with great effect around the world. There's a reason why when I've been embedded with US troops. You'll, you'll be sitting there they'll have a laptop with them, and they will see a red dot identifying an attacker, on the other side of a wall. That, that takes advantage of US satellite technology because the US has that advantage. Both China and Russia. No, that's something that they can disable in the event of a war, even short of a war to disadvantage US forces. We're more dependent. We're more advanced, but therefore more dependent on it, and therefore more vulnerable, and the same goes for civilian technology. There's a whole host of things that you and I use every day dependent on satellites. I mean, we know GPS the so we don't get lost, but financial transactions in the new York Stock Exchange here in New York. They use. Timestamps that come from GPS satellites, China and Russian no you disabled, those satellites US financial markets can come to a stop. So the advancement is vulnerability, and it's one that China and Russia have become very wise about exploiting. So let me ask you, because obviously many previous presidents believed that China was just waiting to become part of the international world. Order led by America happy to be part of, of that order. But in fact, you point out that there quietly and quickly trying to surpass the United States Russia is yes. Go ahead. I just wanted to persistent delusion of the US of the west you mean. Yeah, exactly is Russia different. If has interfered in democracies in the United States and elsewhere. It has perfected the art of the little green men in other words, asymmetrical warfare. You know, the whole idea of, of sending in troops with non recognizable insignia or anything like that. And then denying the troops. There's we saw in Ukraine, and etc. Who is doing a better job of, of incursions against the United States and US dominance. They're both doing pretty darn. Well, they both deployed the space weapons created vulnerabilities there, they both acquired territory while breaking international law, the Russia and Ukraine, China in the South China Sea with other aspirations as well. They both interfered elections Chinese. Do a lot better on stealing state secrets. But Russia's pretty good at spying as well. When I asked intelligence officials, and I'm grateful in this book, as I speak to a whole host of current and former intelligence military officials commanders it's cetera. And they've been very honest, even in their in their self criticism here. When I asked them to say okay who's the bigger threat Russia or China generally, they'll say in the short term Russia be because it's just being more openly aggressive in a number of ways, but long, medium, and long-term. It's China because China is enormously. More powerful. It's got economy on par with the United States. It's got a larger population. It has had enormous advancement in a short period of time Russia. A declining power with its own. Dangerous to present. But China a rising power with enormous capability. And I should note enormous ambition here because and this is explicit in their speeches, and their national security documents their goal is to surpass the United States and take what they've, you is their rightful position as the world's. Superpower. I wanna yes. Oh, no. Onset does the United States get that. Belatedly. Yes, but hasn't quite come on struck upon the strategy to respond and wit got it Tim Shuzo. It's fascinating. The shadow war. Thank you so much. Indeed. Thank you. And now we're turning to the state of Alabama, which has the most restrictive abortion law in America that was signed in this week. Governor Kay Ivey has signed the so-called human life Protection Act, which will bar abortions, even in the cases of rape, and incest, it also means that any doctor who performs an abortion could face life in prison. Here's part of the passionate debate. In Alabama's Senate. Do you know what it's like to be raped? No, ma'am. I don't do you know what it's like to have a relative commit incest, on you own me. No, ma'am. My consistency. Is that human life has rights? And when someone takes those rights, that's what we as government have to step in now you end my wound. I won't you out. You don't control this. You don't own this. This law has created huge waves overseas as well. And governor Ivy noted that the no may be unenforceable given the nineteen Seventy-three Rovers is Wade supreme court decision to allow all women the right to choose. But the backers of this law and similar ones, and other states want the cause to take up these cases and partially or completely overturn Roe versus Wade, few people know this issue, Gloria Steinem. She's been on the leading edge of feminism, ever since the nineteen sixties, she's devoted her life to women's rights, and she's joining me now from New York. Gloria, welcome back to the program. Thank you. You know, you have been fighting this fight and all fights for women's rights for so many is did you see this coming in other words, this, this gradual state by state infringement on Rovers is Wade. Yes. Because we now have majority support for the simple idea that women have control over our own bodies. And a combination of profound sexism, which doesn't recognize that a woman's life is a humans human life and racism and concern over the fact that white women are having fewer births than women of color in general has brought this forward. It is very much an exercise of the white nationalist here go. I'm actually fascinated to hear you put it in that political context, because what most of those people who will say, who defend those, those is that we believe in the sanctity of life, no matter how what aware it starts even in cases of rape, or incest. But you saying it's a much more patriarchal and you've just said, racist demographic. Political power tool. Yes. I mean historically two things have happened that is abortion has been restricted and for women of color sterilization, has been encouraged. I mean, I remember very well, going to interview Fannie Lou Hamer, a great civil rights worker, who had been sterilized in southern hospital where she went for other procedures without her knowledge. So this is patriotic in the sense that the only thing that mend cannot control is birth because they don't have wombs. So it is fundamentally patriarchal, and profoundly racist. I just do want to put up a picture because I think it, it, it sort of hammered home what you're saying about the patriarchy the makeup of the Senate in Alabama, as you can see is practically all men, and it is, you know, it's something that many, many people have commented on in the wake of this new law. Again. You heard the governor herself said that she doubted, this would be enforceable and I would like to play you a sound by the surprise me from Pat Robertson famous Christian, the head of the Christian broadcasting network, who also believes that this may be a step too far. Let's just play the sound bite. I think that will Bama has gone too far. They've passed the law that would give a ninety nine year prison sentence to people who commit abortion, there's no exception for rape, or incest. It's an extreme all, and they wanted to challenge over swayed. But my humble view is that this is not the case. We want to bring to the supreme court because I think this one lose. So he's also being political you assume think you'd lose in the supreme court as well. But, but talk us through it. What do you think the political and legal steps will be off to this? And there are others. You know, I mean, obviously, you know, in other states they've also recently enacted much tougher anti-abortion laws. Yes. Well, obviously, there has been a challenge to Roe v. Wade brewing for a very long time. And I think what he is saying is that this is not the right challenge from his point of view, which is to do away with Roe v. Wade. And I think he's right. Because this is so profoundly profoundly extremist, but the point is that prohibiting abortion has never ever reduced the number of abortions, it has only increased the number of injuries and deaths among women before Robie Wade when abortion here was illegal one in three American women. Had had an abortion, at some time in their life after Roe v Wade. It was one in four. Why was it lessened not because of Roe v? Wade. But because of the increase of availability of birth control. That is really interesting because people always say those who are against Roe v. Wade says it it's an invitation to step up abortions, but you're saying that the numbers tell the different story. Yes. No. I mean, you know, there's no way that. The question is, do should women's bodies being nationalized by the government who should be in control of women's bodies. It seems to me that the very basis of democracy is that women and men control our own physical, selves, and our own voices. The reason that this is a challenge from women is because the impulse of every single authoritarian government in the world that I have ever studied the first impulse is to control reproduction, because that is the single thing women's bodies that they can't imitate reproduce or take onto themselves as, as a power, and this has always been true. I mean, the most famous example is, is that Hitler himself did as is among his very first act. Act. He padlocked the family planning clinics and declared abortion against the state and sentenced, the only difference was he sentenced the doctors to death and put women in prison because he realized that he could then force women to have children while they were in prison. Is all very chilling. Can I just ask you is really sort of a personal question an observation when you see the elderly female governor of Alabama signing this law, and not using her veto Pala? And yet not thinking that this is enforceable. What do you think is going through her personal and political head? You know, I can't. No. But I assume that she thinks that the supreme court will strike it down. And that her own political future in Alabama depends on doing what she did. I think it will haunt her the rest of her life, and I'm very, very sad that she did it. And from what, you know about when these kinds of restrictions go into effect, what happens across state borders. But what happens to women who can no longer in cases of rape, or incest, or whatever be able to talk to him? And it's, it's, it's it's happened in. I mean many of the. The clinics in Texas, for instance have been closed down. And that means that women have to drive hundreds of miles, which they can ill-afford or stay overnight, or to find services. So it has been getting progressively more difficult in of conservative right-wing states because women have had to travel and that will simply increase, but the point is the big point is that our bodies belong to us women and men, you cannot have a democracy in which the state nationalizes women's bodies, and people who are against abortion, should think twice about national because they could also enforced sterilization of which also has happened the, the bottom line. Is that in a democracy, men and women our bodies belong to ourselves and the government has no right to make those decisions? And you fought for that, right? For all your career. How do you feel right now today? Well, I, I mean, I feel angry and amazed. But I mean it's, you know, we have a situation here in which the all the social Justice movements in this country, the gay and lesbian movement. The environmental movement, the women's women have won the majority opinion, look at the public opinion polls, and so the people who believe in the old racial gender. Class hierarchies are feeling threatened it in very short order, this country will no longer be a majority white country, for instance, in one thousand nine in twenty years. I think the first generation that is the majority babies of color have already been born that seems to me to be great. Why not? I mean you know, we'll have better relations with other countries. We'll have more interesting culture better food, but they because they feel their thority depends on race and class and gender are in backlash. That's how we got Trump. Trump is lost by six million votes. He is not the president of the United States, by any measure of popular vote only because of the electoral college, which itself was a function of the slave states. That's how we got it in the first place, we have to get rid of the electoral college. So we have a profound backlash here. From about a third to forty percent of the country that feels abroad of the old hierarchy in which they were secure, and they are fighting, but they are not the majority is really, really interesting and important, and was so happy to have your voice on today, Gloria Steinem. Thank you for being with us. Thank you. Hi, I'm Bill Kristol feeling confused about politics, who isn't. That's why I host my podcast conversations with Bill Kristol have thoughtful conversations with leading figures in politics and public policy we reflect on where we are. And we consider where we're going subscribing itunes or wherever you get your podcast and check out our archive for conversations with guests like Mike Murphy David Axelrod. Ron brownstein and Paul Begala. No spin no soundbites just thoughtful real conversations. Please do subscribe today to conversations with Bill Kristol tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses, our friends at Xeni optical offer a huge variety of high quality stylish frames state of the art optics starting at just six ninety five you can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home at any dot com with the latest trends in eyewear available in hundreds of frame, styles and materials. There isn't a better way to. Change it up for every season. Plus, is any offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit Xeni today eggs, any dot com slash ready. That's Z. E N N. I dot com slash ready. The case is, we gotta find who wrote this. No. We do that. We find the killer this science defined out. Police used Luminol a chemical, which glows when it comes into contact with the iron component in blood that drama, but where was the rifles, and which man was telling the truth for Renwick files, the legendary true crime show is now a podcast. Join investigators as they take on the toughest cases with cutting edge scientific tools. Subscribe now with apple podcasts with new episodes, every Monday and Thursday, you'll never miss out on getting your forensic fix. And as we said, Allah Bama, doctors could face life in prison for performing an abortion, doctor. David, Eisenberg knows what it's like to work under that kind of pressure, he Oprah the last clinic in Missouri that still performs abortions and just today, that state Senate has passed its own restrictive abortion, Bill Eisenberg is also a medical director of Planned Parenthood in his region. And he's joining me now from Saint Louis. Welcome to the program. It's nice to see you. Nice to see you very much really happy. I'm happy to be here on so many levels, including the fact that I actually went to medical school at the university of Alabama school of medicine. And I, I know in love Alabama. Well, and I feel like there's so many things that we can do better to improve the health and wellbeing of people in this country and limiting access to basic reproductive health care is just not the way to do it. So tell me that what you would say to the people in Alabama to those who put this vote over the top that was a majority in the Senate to the governor, to the health practitioners. They're. Well, first and foremost, I would say to the people of Alabama and same to the people of Missouri, where our state legislature, just passed a Bill about three forty five this morning. Local time, basically outlawing abortion after eight weeks of station is that number one, the Bill is not an effect. The law has not gone into effect, and that clinics all over the state of Alabama that are providing abortion services will continue to do, so until that law is enforceable, and hopefully, it never will be. And here in Missouri is the last free standing clinic are Planned Parenthood is open, and we will be taking care of patients who need us. We will be there to care for them no matter what and we will do what we can to fight these laws in the legal. Ways that we can in terms of challenges in the courts, but we know the courts have been stacked against us, and I'm a healthcare provider. I'm public health expert. I am a scientist. I'm an educator at medical schools, and I will tell you that it's not about the, the law for me when it comes to the patient. That's in front of me. My patient doesn't care what the law says what she knows is. She doesn't want to be pregnant, and she's looking for care more than one in four women will need that in this country in their lifetime. And I'm here to take care of them. And as Steinem just said that number one in four is less than it was before Rovers is weighed, so the numbers all going down. What, what is it like for you to get up every morning as the last practitioner and actually help these women who needed particularly women who have been violently made pregnant through rape incest, and the other terrible things that happened to so many women? Today. The women, I take care of whether they are pregnant and want to be pregnant, and are told they have a tragically affected fetus, that has something wrong or they've developed a medical problem that they can't continue the pregnancy without potentially losing their own life or the women who find themselves pregnant when they don't wanna be are all, you know, crises of their in their world, and I say this to the medical students, the residents, and the nurses that I teach in the doctors and other folks, that I worked with I do a lot of crisis management. We take care of people when they need us under the circumstances in which they need us. And sometimes I take care of women who are asking whether they can continue a pregnancy and asking my input on that. And the truth is with I started in medical school twenty years ago. I'm a board certified attrition gynecologist. I'm an expert in reproductive and sexual health care, and I'm gonna abortion provider, but I would never tell a woman what to do with her body or what to do with her pregnancy. The fact is that decision belongs. To the person who is pregnant and people in this country wanna make it about some point pregnancy or some pregnancies, where abortion is okay versus they're not. Okay, whatever the reason, is that that person doesn't want to continue the pregnancy. That's valid for me. And the fact of the matter is about privacy. It's about agency and self determination. That's what matters here, the head of the Alabama pro-life coalition said the following about the fact that there are no exemptions. He said, regardless of how the conception takes place. I rape or incest, the product is a child. And so we're saying that unborn child is a person entitled to protection of low. What's your response to them? You know, it's really hard to have this conversation with people who don't believe in science who don't believe in evidence based practice of medicine because they, they approached the world with a religious faith that despite all evidence to the contrary. They continue to believe their worldview. It doesn't matter what that state legislator, thinks what matters is what the person who's pregnant thinks about their pregnancy and my job when I take care of my patients is to provide them -education about the risks and the benefits and the alternatives to the treatment, they're asking for whether it's management of really difficult menstrual periods and heavy flow or painful periods or whether it's the management of a pregnancy that they weren't wanting right now or the management of a pregnancy, that's gone horribly wrong. The fact of the matter is my patient deserves the opportunity to get the care, she needs under the circumstances that are right for her and her family without the interference of a legislator. I mean in this country, the most regulated thing in this country is a woman's uterus. It's really remarkable to me twenty years later after having started at the medical school in Alabama and having been a patient escort at the Planned Parenthood of Alabama, in Birmingham. I never thought we'd be where we are now where it is really, really challenging to take care of the women. I take care of and their families. Not because the healthcare is difficult in truth abortion care is some of the safest medicine, that's practiced. It's safer than having nearly any other procedure in medicine, but it's not about the medicine. This is about misogyny, this is about politics. This is about the status of people who can become pregnant, mostly women in this country. And as MS Stein made the point, this is not a new concept. This has been a long standing issue. But what's come to a head is the understanding that women in this country? No longer can expect. The ability to choose when and if to end a pregnancy, if they find themselves pregnant as a result of these state laws and the makeup of the supreme court. So I wanna play you a little bit of a comment from a woman from outta Bama, who did find herself pregnant, and she she'd been right. This is what she said. I suffered from PTSD afterwards, I suffered major depressive disorder lots of traumatic things happen. And I honestly, do not believe that I would be able to go through with it. My rapist, I know would try to use that child that. That child to control me and to get to me because that's what he tried to do after I had my version. I mean you know, as you point out the women have their own very, very particular stories, and you just mentioned, I wonder what somebody like her Sam, what can she expect now from not only her own state, but the supreme court and you've just talked about the makeup of this pretty cool. Well, first and foremost, I think it's really telling that in this country, many states, the sentence that her attacker would suffer if found guilty for the sexual assault that they perpetrated on her would be shorter than the sentence. That's embedded within this new law in Alabama. It's really remarkable to me. It has so much comment on the status of women and their place in our country, as far as what I would tell this woman, I've taken care of patients, like her. I you know, the, the woman who comes to mind right now is woman. I took care of just a few months ago who found herself pregnant under violent circumstances, as the victim of rape, who really just having a pelvic exam in the colleges office with someone like me or nurse. Practitioner was really traumatic for her after that, because of that experience, she really wanted to have a pill abortion, a pill abortion, is literally one of the safest things we do in medicine, but in the state of Alabama. I'm sorry in the state of Missouri. I'm required to be an ambulatory surgical center like facility or hospital to hand her that pill in the state of Missouri. I'm required to do a pelvic exam on her despite not medically needing a pelvic exam to be done. So I'm forced to add insult. Insult to that already horrible. Experience that she's gone through because she happens to be in a state that does not value her capacity her agency or her ability to make a private healthcare decision after suffering such a horrible experience. It's really difficult. And I'll tell you, we do the best we can providing not only that physical care, but the emotional and psychosocial support that these, these people need Doug is vote. Thank you so much for joining us from Missouri. And of course, the prison sentence, he was talking about was the one outta Bama has said which could be life in prison for the doctors who perform abortions, President Trump is unveiling his new immigration plans today amid a humanitarian crisis on the southern border ju to dramatic increase in asylum seekers Trump has repeatedly threatened to cut aid to Central American countries. Those the permit the caravans to move north, but global development, specialist, Raj Kumar argues that this will dry. Dr more migrants to the border. Not fewer, he lays it out in his new book, the business of changing the world. He told restrain of us and what works and what doesn't in the world of foreign aid? Just tell us for perspective. How big is foreign aid around the world? If you add up all the money from governments. So USA ID in the US if it in the UK you add in the World Bank, the philanthropies, it's about two hundred billion dollars a year. So it's a pretty big industry. I think we often think of it as small because we think of our local charity, or local institutions, but overall, it's sizeable about two hundred billion dollars a year, just to also remind people, what fraction of the US budget is going to foreign aid. It's only around one percent of our federal budget, that's used for foreign aid. So it's pretty pretty small part of what we do is country is cynicism, with general population of what is working, what isn't working, I think, so I think there's been a long-term sense among the American public that too much is spent on foreign aid, or that we don't know what happens to it and some of it's wasted. There's the late Senator Jesse Helms talked about foreign rat holes, the money would go down. I think most of that skepticism comes from ignorance, not from really knowing how the sector works when I go and travel around the world and talk to the organization's doing the work. Mostly, we're talking about really well organized officiant, professional groups, trying, their best under very tough circumstances. Is it still something that we're using almost as statecraft? I mean vote this way, with me on the UN and you might get a few extra bags of rice. I'm going to write you a check. It'll just be in the form of aid. So we were doing that, and the Cold War. Yeah, we stopped doing that by and large after the Cold War. We have just started again with the Trump administration. There is now the president quite regularly talks about two Central American countries. For example, you know, vote with us or change your policies on immigration or sending people out of your country, or we will cut aid that had largely gone away in a couple of decades, after the Cold War, ended, and has started to come back in a big way. What's, what's different than or what's wrong with the president saying, listen? We have been spending so much money in the countries in Central America, and we are not seeing results, well, a couple of big things around with one is counterproductive. Right. So by cutting off -unding to those countries, we're very likely hurting the p. People themselves that we're trying to support and driving more of them to leave and try to come to our southern border in the end. The projects, the US government funds giving money to the governments of alad org. Malla we're going there and funding. Our own projects that directly help people. So it's really counterproductive. Even it sounds logical in a way counterproductive to do that second thing is these countries are so far below us in terms of their economic situation is not going to be corrected in a year or ten years, just through normal business activity, and economic growth, the gaps are far too wide. We're going to need to be there. Supporting the work of local communities local governments were need to be there for generations put a perspective are. Goals on border security and building a wall in dollar terms, relative to what we spend, in foreign aid in those countries, or really even GDP those countries, I'm going to guess the exact figures, but it's ten twenty x what would spend on four to security versus what we would use in these countries. I mean, these are very small countries low low population numbers, the total aid budgets there in the hundreds of millions of dollars. We can and should be spending much more than that to address the root causes of the problem. I think if you don't address problems, and a lot of these countries, they will come back to bite us in terms or in security terms. I mean many of these are fragile states, and that's where extremism grows and that's where we end up with terrorism problems. So their direct kind of national security arguments around aid budget, but there's also a basic moral and humanitarian and values based argument that I think most Americans find appealing to say, we are leading country in the world where the richest country in the world, we have an obligation to do our very best to help. The people who are in absolute worst straits. It's twenty nineteen very soon. We might be going around and driverless cars in this country. We have so much advanced technology. It's incredible within ten percent of people on this earth. Still live in extreme poverty less than two dollars a day. Many of them are down at fifty cents a day. And the idea that we would simply look at that and say, well, that's someone else's issue and not ours. I think is not American in terms of the way we've, you are our values as a country. You also write in the book about how these kinds of decisions have kind of political costs as well, which lead to inefficiencies you point out what we did, for example to Haiti and we I mean, the intent was to help people and feed them with our bags of rice. It was, you know Haiti is a country where rice is a staple. Crop people eat a lot of rice there. And most of it was grown domestically. They're Haitian farmers growing rice. And then when they went through some real problems, the US, we're gonna help we're gonna send rice grown by American farmers. Essentially, we've decimated, the Haitian rice industry, you know, when you're getting it for free, how can you afford to grow it and, and build a business doing that? And so it was good intentions, but it really failed. And it's good example of where the aid industry hasn't had the kind of accountability that it needs to have. And then I'm calling for going forward. One way to think about this. We'll look there's this entire industry trying to fix problems. Why can't we figure out ways to solve those problems in the first place, instead of them getting to a point of such equity, where we need international agencies that are trying this. Well, mostly inequities. We're looking at in the world today at the global level started in the colonial era. I mean, this is this has been around for hundreds of years. It's not a coincidence, that the poorest countries in the world were mostly colonies that the richest and the world. We're the colonizers or some of the more imperial economies in the world. So these are very long-term historic trends that were that were addressing and it will take a long time, maybe generations to fully address them, and there isn't really an opportunity in my mind to just sort of step back and let the problems fix themselves. It would be nice to think that, that revolutions will happen in the poorest countries. When poor governments aren't. Addressing the needs of their people, but realistically their lives at stake today. So we need a robust industry that gets the poorest kids fed their kids, literally still in this twenty nine thousand nine that are just not getting basic food or very basic medicine. We can address it. We ought to you, you lay out on the book, how one of the big changes here is that there's a decentralisation of power, then it's not necessarily just five six agencies around the world that are doing all of this, but there are new forces at play. There are gates foundation's is a great example. Right. So they came on the scene. In a huge way. There now funding five six billion dollars a year which puts them at the level of countries in terms of the country's foreign aid budgets. And so they're coming in saying, we care about evidence. We care about data their funding organizations that gather evidence about what's happening in health, for example, or an agriculture and that starts to move the whole industry in a certain direction, because it's a lot harder to justify your foreign aid budget. If there's organisms out there showing what you can get with the dollar and your foreign aid agency, maybe isn't so we started to have more competition in the space gates. Just one example. There are many, many behind them and other countries are getting in the space in a big way countries like China now, major foreign aid donor said this competition around, what do we do with the aid budget is actually driving some innovation and a better focus on? We ought to do on what the results out of be from every dollar. We spend are we relying too much on billionaires to solve these problems? Well, it would be great to not have to rely on billionaires to say, set the agenda in our sector. I'm thinking we can rely on their money. I think we're there is danger in relying on billionaires is they're setting the agenda around philanthropy are setting the agenda around what we ought to fund that doesn't have to be the case it can be science. It can be very basic evidence around what works that sets the agenda for our industry. And as I said, the UN has a set of goals that have been agreed to buy one hundred ninety three countries. They're seventeen of them. So it's actually quite an array of issues around health and education environment. So my argument to anyone who's new to the scene of philanthropy is look at that road map, and you can still pick the area you want to focus on, but do it within a fr-. Framework, that is globally accepted that one hundred ninety three countries have signed up to just about every NGO and non profit institution. The world is working with do it within that framework is lots of room for innovation. But let's align our efforts in that way, the two hundred billion dollars us a lot of money, and it is enormous. But he's there a possibility here that the billionaire class could end up becoming bigger than that, when it comes to giving because not all of them are in this space. I mean you point out the Gates's and a few other ones that are, but most billionaires are not planning on giving everything away. That's right. Yeah. Only about ten percent of the billionaires in the world have signed the giving pledge, which is this pledge Warren Buffett and Bill Gates came up with now. Others might be giving outside of that. But it's hard to give large sums anonymously without people noticing. So most billionaires probably ninety percent or so are really not significant donors at any level, I would hope that all of them will move into the space. They hold about ten trillion dollars in wealth. So there's enormous. Potential. If that money gets dedicated to the highest priority issues. If it spent in transparent ways we can scrutinize as a public and if it actually goes to things that we know work. So I think there's huge potential, but we'd rules for the road. It might even require legislation, we might even need to have given the sums of money going into philanthropy, a new a new legislative approach to transparency, for example. You also mentioned that aid is shifting from kind of a wholesale model to a retail model partly because of this explain what does that mean? For a long time, we would cook up good ideas in places like Washington, DC, and Brussels and London. And we would think of serving whole populations that we're going to launch a big project to feed kids in school or a big project around delivering medicines. And part of the rationale was we can't actually go and talk to people effect, too many of them new to spread out there disconnected. That is no longer. Really an excuse. You can go to almost any country in the world. Now, any place, even pretty rural places and find. There's internet connections people have phones often smartphones incr-. People are connected to mobile money system. So it's a lot easier to just get directly to the person you're trying to help and increasingly projects are doing that. Now, there are examples like Uber for tractors. Hello tractor in Nigeria, how does that work where basically they said, you know, the tracker was invented over two hundred years ago, and yet, mo- small-scale, farmers don't have access to one. So they can't afford their own. But if you can share your track, your among many farmers, they can work. So this is a simple technology works. It's very much like Uber. You own attract or you, share it. Other farmers pay you for access to it, and they're now seventy five percent of the new tractors coming into Nigeria use this. Hello, attractors sharing technology in five countries across the continent of Africa. It's a great opportunity where you say who's the key to solving rural poverty? It's the farmer, it's not the aid agency. It's not the nonprofit executive. It's the farmer and increasingly retail eight is about going to the people who are going to really solve the problem, which is poor people themselves figuring out what they need and helping them with it. What about ideas like crowd? Funding or I remember my sort of holiday donation. Sometimes it go to microlending through kiva, or through a other startups that were trying to get money more quickly to the people who actually need it and could benefit from it instead of going through a giant charity, and then having their decision process, hopefully get to that person. Yeah, there's a lot of that. So kiva has grown over a billion dollars in loans have been made through the kiva platform with individuals often just twenty five dollars a time making those kind of nations or donors choose here in the United States, states. That's right. And now there's a group called give directly where you can literally provide cash to a person who needs it who's living in extreme poverty. The way they do it is, they use satellite imagery, to look at rural communities in Kenya, and Tanzania and Uganda and other places like that. And they say which of these households doesn't even have the money to afford a tin roof, and instead has a thatched roof sign, they're like, very poor and they directly sent them about a thousand dollars to their cell phone, and they study exactly what that. Does that dollars and how it lifts up their family gives them opportunities for new employment, and they found ways now, and these are increasingly kind of a competitive market for your donation around the holiday time to say where can I give I can give to traditional charities that work with for a long time who themselves are getting more innovative more rigorous I can give to loan through loans like kiva platform. I can give directly to the poorest people in the world through give directly. So there's a lot of new opportunities and this competition for dollars dollars in wealthy countries. For ordinary givers, I think, is really healthy. There's also seems to be kind of social enterprises Inc. Starting to shift a little bit and thinking about not just the triple bottom line, but saying, hey, this is going to be part of my mission. Yeah. And I think the big opportunity isn't necessarily the small social enterprise decks, where small social enterprise. It's the big corporations and increasingly their employees, their consumers their investors, or saying, you know, you might be a big corporate billions of dollars. We expect you to have a social mission. In addition. To your business mission, and that's hard. But increasingly that's where business could head if we push it, and big opportunities, and we saw the walkouts at Google over discrimination, thousands of employees walking out, right employees have a lot of power and consumers have a lot of power. We use it, we might be able to shake business so that social entrepreneurship is kind of the standard approach to doing business, which is critical. I think if we want to have any shot of achieving the sustainable development goals addressing climate change. It can't just be there's some do gooders over on the side, and then the main thrust of what we do in the world is contributing to pollution or inequality. It's kind of all has to work together for decades. There's also been this perception. Oh, here comes the American here comes the European to solve all our problems. They're just going to wave a lot of money around. How do we keep that from perpetuating? It's getting better. It's still an issue, but it's getting better. Increasingly organizations are saying we'll actually fund a local group instead of bringing in a US or European group to do this work, many of the big international. Organizations themselves are becoming more locally oriented. They're hiring people in these countries are setting up offices locally. So it's starting to really improve. There's a lot further to go on this a lot further. If local communities local experts local businesses are part of the solution. You're much more likely to actually solve the problem. So not just a question representation. So how individual users, I guess, not users, but just citizens normal people impact such this this enormous two hundred billion dollar global aid industry. I think one way is to just get educated about it like this is our industry as citizens. We're, we're paying for it through your tax dollars. You're paying for it through the donations that you make pay attention to it. And learn about it and start asking tough questions, even of the organizations that you may have known for many years, and trust find out what they're doing with that money that you're donating, and I think also as a tax payer push our government to actually take some more risks to be a little more innovative, not to say what we just better be careful not a dime of taxpayer money gets stolen and to do that. We might have to spend huge amounts on. Bureaucracy. Let's get out of that risk game and get more into results and get more impact. I think we as citizens can push that if we change the way we think of this industry, I think, for too long, the aid industry has been seen as owned by someone else. It's owned by the nonprofits, or it's owned by aid workers, or owned by certain agencies at the UN, this is our industry. This is the public's Rajkumar, thanks so much. Thank you for having me. And Raj KamAz book, the business of changing the world which reveals the transformation of the industry is out now. But that's it for now. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London. Hi, I'm Bill Kristol ever wonder what the godfather films breaking bad can tell us what the health of the American dream or what it was like to be in the Pentagon nine eleven or house cream court justices talk to each other, when they get together at a conference. These are the kinds of questions I ask and topics I discussed with guests on my podcast conversations with Bill, Kristol, subscribe at, I tunes, wherever you get your podcast and check out our archive with guests like general David, portrays David Axelrod, ion on her CLE, Ron brownstein and Justice Samuel. Alito subscribe today to conversations with Bill Kristol.

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Amanpour: Ellie Singer, Anna McNeil, David Spiegelhalter and Jonathan Metzl

Amanpour

57:52 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Ellie Singer, Anna McNeil, David Spiegelhalter and Jonathan Metzl

"The bad. This is here NCW March madness. Takes the courses the big, Dan. So miss a moment of the action on TBS CBS TNT and true TV and download the March madness live up to watch every game anywhere at anytime. Live Hello podcast listeners. Just wrapped up the show. And we've got to really compelling conversations. I I talked to to Yale students about one of America's most pervasive problems that sexual harassment on college campuses. They're suing their university and nine of its frats make them go co Ed they tell me then ever thought is to Tissot on a campaign poster look too good to be true, a renowned statistician tells me, it just might be and we actually have three conversations because our Hari Sreenivasan talks to physician and author Jonathan mezzo about the physical side effects of racial politics. Enjoy the show and have a great weekend. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. It's been called an epidemic affecting universities across America. Sexual harassment and assault on college campuses and three young women are determined to do something about it. Now, animate Neil Ellie singer and ri- Walker or all students at Yale University, and they say they were groped at fraternity parties. Now, the suicide Yale and nine of its fraternities over a culture that they describe as enabling harassment. They argue that the frat system hosts drunken parties that often result in sexual assault and causes women to be viewed as sexual objects their demand make frats coed allow women to join fraternities and their so called Greek system date back to America's founding, but they've come under increasing scrutiny in recent years. The organizations are technically separate from the universities. But these students argue that they are still Yale's responsibility animated Neil and leasing join me from New York to discuss the lawsuit and why they're taking a stand Elian, Anna, welcome to the program. Thank you. I think for having us. So can I ask you what exactly some of what you're trying to achieve with your lawsuit? Why are you bringing this lawsuit and thanks so much for having us a really happy to be here with this lawsuit. We're really trying to bring about an end of inequality and sexual harassment on yells campus. What's going on at Yale of fraternity culture rampant sexual harassment and yells hands off approach to fraternities is really a microcosm of what's going on across the country at many different fraternities. We brought this problem I to our peers than T L administrators, and because we were rejected by our peers and dismissed by our administrators we decided to file this lawsuit to hopefully, help put a stop to the inequality in sexual harassment that we and countless other female students have faced at the hands of fraternities, and it is a class. Action lawsuit. L E lemme ask you to respond to this basically in two thousand seven the study by researchers of the college of William, and Mary which is in Virginia found the fraternity men with three times more likely to commit rape than other men on college campuses. And that is a very very concerning figure, and it also confirmed, according to this study that fraternities provide the culture of male peers support for violence against women the permits Bada choose to become treacherous behavior on comment on that. And how that is manifested suppose you can say how you came across this. What what happened to you guys that you have brought this class action lawsuit? So it's our belief that as it stands when fraternity members are male, and they only have to live and interact with that males. They see their peers as male and women functionally just become sexual objects who they have at parties. And that's what we believe. Leads that culture of sexual harassment and sexual assault. We believe that if women are to join fraternities, then they become peers and no longer objects. So the experiences that we had were we as many I do want to fraternity parties early in our Gail career and experienced leering sexual harassment and even sexual assault. I myself was out a fraternity party when I was a freshman dancing with some girls and a man had never met before decided he could describe me from behind when I said, no he didn't do anything the first time when I said, no the second time, he finally left. That's the experience that opened my eyes. I think to the culture fraternities and Anna what we'll sort of experience. Do you have a similarly to Elliott my first semester at Yale? I had many experiences of being groped without my consent at fraternity parties, sometimes many experiences even over the course of one night where similarly someone I didn't know and someone I couldn't see approach me from behind and groped me grope my breasts group my but without my consent. And it wasn't until I was able to physically separate myself from them, which is difficult in such a crowded space that that the that the assault stopped and that happened to me many times over the course of my first semester. I mean, I think fraternities and the whole culture has been, you know, fairly controversial for many many years. I mean fraternities have been around since practically the door and of the United States since the seventeen hundred and sororities, which of course, or girl units about one hundred years later now we are asked the administration for a response, but they didn't refer specifically to your lawsuit. They didn't give us a specific response. But they gave us and sent us to a letter that was sent by the dean to students last February of two year long review of campus culture, including the fraternity culture, this several enemies to this. And I want to start with this one. I condemn the culture described in these accounts it runs counter twelve communities values. Of making everyone feel welcomed respected and safe. I also offer some plain advice about events like these do not go to them. You know, it is a question that many will ask don't go to them. It's fairly well known that this kind of people like to say boys will be boys. Frat boys will be frat boys. Why do you go to them? So I personally no longer go to fraternity parties. But I recognize that this is a problem bigger than myself, countless women, and countless non binary people and even young men go to fraternity parties all the time, especially when they're early in their college careers, and they don't know where else to party, we think that it's important to make that culture safer for them. Because even if we don't go other people are vulnerable, but it goes beyond just the sexual violence as well. Because fraternity brothers have access to eight vast network of powerful people powerful careers that sororities don't have the same access to. So we think just saying don't go ignores a huge problem that a lot of people are still going to face both with in the parties and outside of them. And also just add to that and say that, you know, Mark. Chun's advice? Not to go to parties is difficult for a lot of students to dimplomat in their lives because there are very few alternative party spaces, especially for younger students, Yale college has not taken any meaningful steps to to help sustain or themselves provide those alternative party spaces and Yale sustains a mutually dependent relationship with the fraternities where you'll college has scaled back a lot of its its own social programming for students because they know that fraternities will fill that void, and he'll college depends on the fraternities to keep up that to meet that social demand because they themselves are not meeting it. So I'd say Marvin Chun's words are a lot of talk. But it unfortunately doesn't match the action that you'll college has taken in the past decade, while I'm going to delve into that in a moment because the whole notion that Yale basically says correct me if I'm wrong that these fraternities are not actually formerly part of Yale that off campus, and they don't evolve themselves in in organizing them or in being responsible for them. But I'll read. Again, more from the response. But I I want to read what the lawyer for the fraternities who are named in the lawsuit says, and they say that the accusations that you've wrote all quote baseless, and unfounded, and that the fraternities, and then national organizations would vigorously defend themselves against the claims. I mean, clearly, you can imagine that that is what they would say, what do you say to that? And how powerful the case can you bring in response to the response to the fraternities lawyers claim that the accusations are baseless fraternities are discriminatory at their core. We have written correspondence with fraternity directors and from fraternity members at Yale saying that you know, by definition men are only eligible for membership. So that fact is indisputable that their Dacian fraternities discriminate against women. And that's kind of what we're challenging such an accepted normalized part of college culture in America. And then also in the response to the other accusations that they say are baseless. I mean, Elliot I have both experienced sexual assaulter porter. Unity's we've circulated a petition among other students that has over one hundred signatures that people have either experienced the fraternity the violence at fraternities themselves or witnessed it happened to others. So that those accusations are not baseless because countless other women and men can attest to to the rest of the of those statements that fraternities are hotbeds of sexual misconduct, and that they promote and sustain discrimination in their everyday activities. So in response to those that's what I'd say. So other universities have decided to change the system for example, back in twenty sixteen members of what Harvard's administration calls on recognized single gender social organizations a no longer eligible for campus leadership positions or scholarships in the life. So have it has taken steps in the direction that you seem to be a wanting to take your university in the frats that so just again explained you'll case is a sort of if I might put it this way kind of title. Nine case, right. It's about gender discrimination in terms of membership. Rather than rather than a case against abuse. Is that correct? Right. Well, what makes this case the first of its kind is that we're challenging fraternities on the basis of gender discrimination that we were not accepted to them. That's what makes it a novel case and one that has no precedent. But there's also a claim that the paternity is promote these sexually hostile environments. And then also a claim that yell has awareness of this and has chosen not chosen not to take action. So there's a title nine component that's about gender discrimination. But there's also this hostile environment claim that they do promote sexual misconduct and endanger female and non binary students. But but correct the gender discrimination claimed that we're making is is new and that's under title nine and one other thing I will say is it's a shame that Gail so far behind Harvard. The Harvard Yale rivalry is historic and Gale's falling behind. It's failing its students in a way that Harvard refused to do do you. You both feel or have you felt any backlash here. You are speaking very publicly and loudly on many many platforms about this case. And you know, you've just said it's a shame. That Yale is is lagging behind Harvard as you put it are. You facing any backlash from fellow students from faculty from the administration since the lawsuit has been filed. There hasn't really been any new reactions on campus. Elian I are both members of engender a student organization that I helped co found in the fall thousand sixteen and we've been advocating for the gender integration of social spaces at Yale for for two years now. So that argument was really not new to our peers, although initially face some backlash for that. The filing of the lawsuit didn't really inside any new backlash among students because it had been known for a while. But this was our platform and just before I move onto a more general question. I just wanted to finish reading the dean statement on this goes to the heart of this issue. Although yale. Makes it self available in Foley to fraternities and sororities it plays. No formal role in the operations of organizations not affiliated with the university, including Greek organizations. That's the I guess the formal name for fraternities nonetheless. He goes on to say, I owed all yell college students who belong to them to take advantage of the training and resources available to the entire student body. I fully support the proposal that fraternities and sororities promote and share best practices among themselves. And of course, all students are encouraged to raise any issues or concerns with my office. What is the response when you do raise those concerns without office? Well, we had numerous meetings with administrators in the two thousand sixteen two thousand seventeen academic year and the following year as well, we brought this concern to many members of the L college dean's office, including the assistant dean who is appointed to oversee Greek life. So I mean right there there's a contradiction that they do have someone who corresponds semi regularly with fraternity president. So this idea that they're unrecognized is completely false. And when we met with number a number of these minister's telling them our own experiences of sexual harassment, kind of telling them things they already knew because they've commissioned a number of reports in the last decade, which have given them similar findings that fraternities or sexually hostile environments and have to be regulated in. We brought this information to them. They said things like our hands are tied. We can't help you we acknowledge that it's discrimination. But unfortunately, it's permitted under our college policy, basically they repeatedly failed to. To uphold their promise of equal opportunity and anti-discrimination they in many meetings with us kind of made it clear that those were were promises they did not intend to keep obviously you're both Yale. And you oversee be in a way on how have you reacted to this? These these charges and allegations and indictments because of the bribery scandals to get kids into school in ways that are not legal and they did happen. At Yale Yale was involved in that. And if I it just rescinded the admission of student connected to that scam. What what is your view on that? I mean, did you know, these kinds of things do you know, any of the kids? I mean, it must be very difficult for the kids, particularly if they didn't know that their parents up to this kind of alleged behavior. Well, I think the issue is if children didn't know their parents were up to this kind of behavior, that's incredibly unfortunate. But at the end of the day people getting in by. Gaming the system still takes away the spot from somebody who perhaps was more deserving, and I think that's still really unfair. Even if those children weren't aware, which we're not always sure of I think the reaction yields been very interesting because some people reacted with outrage. A lot of people have laughed it off and shared memes about it. But at the end of the day, I think nobody is surprised that getting into gale isn't exactly equal because there are other forms of while legal different ways that you get admitted on fairly, and I think that is a broader conversation about inequality at Yale that needs to happen and it exists in a bunch of different spheres. Let me ask you about. Whether anything has changed on your campus in your experience in the wake of the metoo movement. I mean, it's being over a year now that this is really being very dominant and a huge amount of attention has come belatedly. But nonetheless, welcome attention to the abuse of girls and women and young men if they're abused as well. Well off things changing. I mean, do you see a different atmosphere in your in your everyday life? I think to an extent I do every semester the number of reported instances of sexual misconduct rises at Yale. So I'd say that there definitely has been in the past two and a half years at I've been at Yale an increased awareness of the problem and survivors are much more. Have have been more vocal in those years and are given more platforms to make their stories heard up -solutely. I mean, it's interesting also to ask you this in the wake of you may have seen this new story, but a high school in Maryland, it turns out that the some girls figured out that they will on a list that apparently boys was circulating, and they were named and rated according to numbers with decimal points in terms of their appearance. And and they decided not just to take it quietly and to to name it and outed and talk about it. And even talk to the boys who may have been circulating these petitions. I wonder what you make of that. And whether you know, it says they took it to the school administrators and to their classmates demanding not just disciplinary action, but also sort of a school wide awareness, an accounting for fatty, toxic habits and behavior. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I stand with those girls, I support them. I think it's really important to point out that behavior like this. If it's if it's not checked in middle school or high school. It definitely goes on in college things like this have happened. At Yale continue to happen at Yale. And every day administrators decide to say, you know, this is in our issue. It allows that behavior to persist and to continue even into adulthood. So I think it's important that we recognize that this is kind of a pipeline fraternities are part of the same boys will be boys argument that applies to middle schoolers somehow applies also to adult men doing similarly hurtful and an unacceptable things. So I think it's it's definitely an interesting story to point out the similarities to that kind of behavior that can thrive in high school. And then also in environments like yell with these similar kind of boys club atmospheres, where the behavior of male students goes unchecked up -solutely, Betty singer, an animate Neil. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thanks for having us and just to know that we have the Neue representing the fraternities named in the middle of soon for further comment, and we will report that a soon. As we get it. Would you agree that the world could use a little more kindness? If so then you're going to love butterfly coins. They're real coins that feature a beautiful butterfly on the front and attracting number on the bag. You do something. Nice for someone then give them the coin and tell them to pay the kindness and the coin forward. Each coin includes a story page at butterfly coins dot org, which shows its journey on a map along with notes pictures and videos, so here's the coolest part. The smallest of kind acts done today can lead to amazing life changing events in the future. You can literally watch the ripple effects of your kindness spread through the world forever. It's simple. It's fun and insen credibly rewarding. You'll be starting. A lifelong legacy of kindness with each coin. Join the movement today and help us change the world at butterfly coins dot org. Remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash. I'm Biagio Messina. And I'm joke seen we're the producers behind HSEN television documentary series unmasking killer. Join us as we explore the identification capture and arrest of Joseph James, the Angelo the alleged Golden State killer in a special ten part podcast series unmasking killer, all new episodes premiering Tuesday. February twelfth subscribed today at apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Now, it's often said that there are three kinds of lies lies damn lies and statistics. But that's slogan is roundly rejected by my next guest and renounce status Titian, so David Spiegelhalter in his latest book, the art of statistics taking aim at dodgy data in the age of alternative fives has never been more important, and while statistics could be baffling and even misleading the Cambridge University. Professor tells me that it's all about the context and the quantity in this masterclass in math. So David Spiegelhalter, welcome to the program. So your new book the art of statistics. What is it for is it for geeks isn't the lay laypeople the novices when it comes to start and maths and the like, I guess it's record wide audience for people who want to understand better all the numbers in the news, everything they read and who wants to essentially teach them, so. Selves, the principles of statistical analysis, and that's signs to be almost a bit. Dull and many people will have done some fairly tedious stacks cool sits in their education. I think this tries to be a lot more interesting buying gauging it engaging people with with solving problems. Everything I do about solving problems using data to solve problems and using that to illustrate statistical crystals why a stat so important, and why do people not know enough about them? And that's coupled with this kind of a sold on the nature of facts and evidence in the famous people have had enough of experts. We're we live in each of data from the traditional dates of officials statistics and scientific research. We've got this massive explosion data science machine learning terific citing time and in this age of data. It's important to realize that the data doesn't speak for itself. You don't just stick the three comes on. So it requires skill and understand. Funding and cat to to ring out the meaning from the data to draw the correct conclusions with the appropriate caution and humility, so let's just blowback just assert that data and doing what you're saying. It should do put it in context ring out the meaning affects just about every aspect of daily life political life scientific life, right everything everything from the decisions we make about a health finance families are future. And of course, how we vote. It all depends on people giving us information. And a lot of that information is in terms of numbers big something is this numbers on it. Just tell you big something is is it small is it big. Should we worry about it shouldn't we worry about? And again, I think people are desperate in this age of fake news and everybody competing to be the expert and peddling whatever sometimes rubbish people want to know where they can get the best and how they can actually trust the data and the stats. Exactly. It's all to do with trustworthiness of. Of numbers. And usually when I hear a number. I'm very suspicious because I think that person's trying to persuade me something they trying to change my mind, usually, they're trying to make you frightened about something might you anxious to to influence your opinion. Then all actually just informing me. And so I think it's essential skill in order to be able to understand how numbers can be used and misused and be able to question them. Well, you go through a whole set of a framework for how to read and address and how you've come to your conclusions. And we have as a guide several pages of some of your points. And we're going to start at the beginning with algorithms, and we're going to look up there and see the first picture, and this, of course, is called doll who you call the luckiest person to survive, the Titanic disaster. Tell us why. And how you'll stat look made that conclusion. Okay, the Titanic. You may not know. But within the data science community is a lot of interest in the Titanic because there's a very nice messy data set of the passengers showing how old they would that class. They were traveling how much they pay for the ticket. They name and etcetera etcetera, even some of them that cap it on just become a sort of a big competition to try to build the best outgrow that can predict who survived and who didn't. And we know that's going to be influenced by males tend to Noah survival rate. Whether you're the second will cost, but one other features might help. And this been there's been a competition running online, which fifty nine thousand entries into it. And so I thought oh a lot of this. So I got the right to set and built this algorithm. Quite a simple one to predict who's going to survive you keep a chunk of data to test on. And what I found is that I tried all sorts of algorithms from simple little statistical regressions than known to really complex neural networks. Try them all and and then look at if you. Over all of those which survive got the lowest probability of survival. Who was the most surprising survive? It was this guy called Dow why? Well, he was trumping third class as a single man he only paid eight pans for his ticket all the indicators, which suggested he should not survive. And in fact, it turns out he did he just jumped into the sea. No one survived who did that? But then he got onto a lifeboat, and they the people that elected try to push him back in but he managed to climb back climb onto that life. But I think he actually just fought his white on the knife boat. So and he survived. So maybe he shouldn't be the luckiest, man. Maybe he was just just fought his way into slow so and let's just point out. He was a single, man. So he could do that without having to worry about looking after his wet this lady who he married much late any live happily ever off. So that's a bit of fun using. A serious point, though, serious point. There are also algorithms you can use to make predictions, and the best thing is they produce a probability that don't say what's going to happen. They produce a probability of what might have so fossil wood to this thing called predict about healthcare and survivor been teammates. What is that about in terms of in terms? If you've got cancel any other diseases predict predict for breast cancer. It's for women who've got breast cancer and trying to decide about what treatment have they can have surgery, but will also have chemotherapy or tycoon therapy or Saxon trust trustees them out, and it depends on L survival benefit would be you put in your risk factors, and this type of tumor. We'll give you a probability of surviving. Ten fifteen years with these different treatments, and it presents that to to women for for how long is that being effect? It's been some time. It said a million uses around the world. Well, it's not right to wrong. Remember, this narrow it gives the probability and has it on. It's it's. It's. Reliable when it says seventy percent shots living ten years. Seventy percent of women will live ten years. So it's it's it's got reliable numbers. But doesn't say what's going to happen to you? But it's been proven to be very useful. And just last week of for men with prostate cancer came. Is there a sort of a potential downside that patients might rely too much on these algorithms the idea within? Ova trust. Because when an algorithm comes out with a probability or prediction of what might happen Heilong, the possibilities of survival and people who put them to reliance on you're absolutely right. And it is only. Now, it only uses certain pieces of information that may be other bits of information that are important dunk go into the algorithm. So let's look at this other bit of information so exaggeration of proportions. Let's take the World Health Organization stats. They have said fifty grams of process me today increases your relative risk of developing bowel cancer by eighteen percent. Okay. That's the W H O twenty fifteen. And then of course, the newspapers got hold of it. You've got bang out of all those puns. What is the problem with this? I mean, was it. Correct. The WHO was it was it red cut correctly by the public the number. So that puts out seem to be fairly reliable. But how it was interpreted by the public by some of the newspapers was terrible because it was saying that. But you can just as dangerous as cigarettes things like that which is complete nonsense and those numbers though of very difficult to interpret personally, which is an eighteen percent increase. But what does that mean is that important should I worry give Bankin should? I'm not what we do in. What I do in. The book is is to put that into a framework, which makes it much easier to understand what should people do faced with those statistics. And then those headlines what they should do is certainly demand better communication from the journalist, but they should say well eighteen percent waltz. And it turns out the night of a hundred people ran about six we'll get bow count set south during their lifetime. So what that means is if all those one hundred people at a bright big greasy bacon sandwich every single day of their life. That risk would eighteen percent. Which means that six would go up to essentially seven so one hundred people eating that stuff everyday the knives at one extra case about cancer. And that's kind of puts. Mm perspective. So that puts the exaggeration and the proportion thing into perspective. And then you've got this other thing what you call data quantity, the quality of the data. There is a graph. Here. We have a study of the average sexual partners for British men and women over three decades. And as you can see on the left. The men seem to say they have a significantly higher level of sexual partners than the women. What is wrong with that picture? It is mathematically impossible that own that men on act up an average of Ripon is greater than the women's average number because it takes two to be punished. These are up just opposite sex partnerships. In other words, there's only a finite number of people on the sign of men and women's says, the partnership is to people the average in terms of the main average must be the same in both groups so something's wrong that and there's been a lot of research trying to work. What is wrong? The conclusion is that there's a number of factors women when they report the number of pop ships. They've had some sort of what school social desirability buys. They may not be willing to own up. Tons of. They they do tend to under report. The men do they over men do tend to over report. And that might be a boastful nece and things, but not I think the conclusion is that a lot of is just to do with the way that people remember, and why women will be working remembering individuals names and faces and occasions men, we lead ten twenty fifty. And if you look at the actual in the book, I've got down to graph it shows that great big peaks on twenty thirty forty fifty people want canting, they just making a vague guess. So I mean, that's kind of amusing how important is it? And by the way, what other things could fall into that catching on think. Anyway, where you ask someone to the Yukon touchy got pretty we kind of prove that you cannot find out the truth that by any of this stuff. This is a very reputable survey, this is one of the best I know surveys of sexual behavior that there is. Meticulously done, and the gap has got small life, you know, over time and getting better and better at listing these responses from people, but in anything where people are asking about what crimes people might have committed with the taking drugs or not, and those are tricky questions, and you have to live for the fact that people might not be telling the complete truth sometimes because they just can't remember can I get into the really sort of tricky kind of poisonous toxic issue these days, and that's politics, and and counterclaims potus and ship. First and foremost do stats in the way, you investigate them play a role in pole. Stuff's pollsters. For instance, polling who's going to win what I mean. So many pollsters have been discredited over the NAS several election cycles because the person predicted didn't actually win and somebody else has anything to do with stats because I keep thinking like Nate Silva, for instance, is everything to do with stops. Because it's definitely to do with the. Quality of the data. And when you're doing telephone poles you might get a response rate of about just ten percent. Maybe you're not necessarily getting a Representative sample, but the other point to the huge Admira nights. It was work is that is not a matter of getting it, right or wrong. He's always portrayed the pus new cold election result. Well, the loss of the Trump. He just the last man he's giving twenty nine percent probability that Trump will win, you know, roughly one out of three and be was oh, he was wrong. You can think of it in three imaginary elections Hillary would have two to trim one. We happened to get the one that he was. So he wasn't wrong. He wasn't as Ryan disease being in the past. But it's not matter of varietal wrong when giving probabilities and Natan is extremely good only giving probability Nevis what will happen. So what should people think? Then when they go to vote when they're reading about the neck Shen, given the fact that. You know, the sort of impression is that all the pollsters a wrong. The post, you know, the not too bad. They're trying to get the act together bets by using tonight of using data sources and recently has been developing some fancy statistical methods so they go into a bit in the book, which actually seem to be getting things really quite close. So the, but just phoning people up and saying how you're gonna vote actually is seen as pretty unwind these unreliable white to defined. So the next thing I want to talk about his positive and negative framing of numbers one of the huge big numbers in red on that bus was that three hundred and fifty million a week. This was Boris Johnson. And the Brexit is who promised that the NHS was going to get that every single week once Britain was out of the EU. What is wrong with that picture? First of all the numbers wrong. We don't send three hundred fifty million people who've parents to the. The and they were really criticized for that musing that number by multiple bodies official buddies, but writing that just saying you cannot use that claim. But even if it were more program, which was one hundred and seventeen hundred and eighteen million. The point is is you have to ask is this really such a big number sounds like a massive number three hundred fifty million pounds we but by changing the framing we've learned from people. I Don econom- that the framing the number makes an enormous difference. Twits emotional impact, I can make that number. Look look small so many that number three hundred fifty million pounds a week. Let's let's take that. So the sixty million people in the UK. So so that's the back section. So was six pounds a week each and that sort of eighteen Pence a day about a packet of crisps chips chips that was that's what it is. Also find it that as a as a fraction of total GDP like a tiny fraction and yet it played a huge. Hewison droll vary. Very clever. If they'd send said said seventeen billion a year, people don't signed billions too many. But the three hundred fifty is very cleverly for the brilliant bit of work. And so that was the Brexit position. By contrast, the government, which was remain and the the chance to the exchequer otherwise known as the Treasury Secretary came out with a bunch of counting numbers that didn't really. He was equally frame to try to sign impressive. Equally dubious because he said every family will be four thousand pounds a year will solve if we leave the EU, and he got that by dividing some projection of change in GDP, which is purely judgment, not an accurate figure divided by the number of families in the country and got this four thousand times, I'm put that on a big boards and. Exactly. And I think people felt that was even more devious than this was dubious number. So and it didn't have the impact elves that they that they desired so for myself and viewers, what should they think then in an election campaigns where they may see a lot of these. Oh, I think every time she a number being used in the election campaign is treated with deep skepticism the sort of questions dwells getting to why am I being told us? How does this? Prominent people have said, how does it make me feel and be aware of the feelings that are being generated by that number and realized that the the sort of the framing and the games and the tricks that the peasant communicating to is trying to play. And then we've got this other thing this is one of the NAS areas. We'll talk about and that is correlation versus causation. So in other words, just because the economy does well under one president or by the under another president, it doesn't necessarily mean that president is responsible is that right? Yes. I mean, it's a standard problem. The two things go together. And it doesn't mean the one causes the other. And this so many good examples without not that. Well. Good example, the one that you found we've found so this is a graphic which shows a near perfect correlation between the age of Miss America and murders by steam or hot vapors and objects. I mean, crazy. Website, which is wonderful. It become very well known as generating all these idiotic associations with correlations of Ninety-seven percent thought. So what is the lesson then from this, oh to be very cautious about when people make a claim that one thing is causing another one of my favorite examples was a study in the US that says, you know, sodas cools violence, and will they did the interviewed a whole lot of teenagers. You know, how many sodas do you have a week and violence on you? And the the kids who have more side is way more history of violence and they soda must be causing the violence. And I think why why why is it? I. To make a joke about you could be the other way after hob as violence. It makes you very thirsty. Dean, maybe you feel like a soda again. No, this this is this could be an issue. What are the most serious ways? They can't come up that confused the public perception. Oh. Back scenes and autism. If to get on the subject that of course, it's not the tool contested. There is people get the vaccine the vaccine to bite the same time that no kids might be diagnosed with autism. But you know, they can say that they actually this week we've been discussing in Neil, stay of the easels aren't Greg banned from public spaces because they don't have the herd immunity because they haven't been vaccinated. So there's an association between the age of getting vaccine and the age of which people get diagnosed with autism. And. Then turned into a courtroom. And the president of the United States has sought of lent his support to this idea. So how dangerous is it? When a leader of the of the world, does you know correlation and causation on not someone to lecture the leader of the world. But some it is an important issue. And again, just something you should try to recognize when it's being dumb when an association in time just like those crazy figures just an association over so many years. That doesn't mean that one thing is causing another. It's been puffy lodge perky sensible, people are not nothing, but a cool that feelings can be really manipulated by people using data said, David Spiegelhalter. Thank you for joining us very much and next week turned from uncertainty about numbers to downright resistance to cold hard facts in his new book, dying of whiteness physician. Jonathan mezzo details. The dia consequences of some right wing policies for the populations. They claim to help from gun control to healthcare mezzo finds that some white Americans would rather die than betray the politics of their identity. He spoke with Harry, strain of awesome, what is dying of whiteness, dying of whiteness as a story about the politics that claim to make white America. Great again, if you're a working class white American and making your own life harder, sicker and shorter. I spent seven or eight years. Over the course of my research looking at the everyday effect of what happens if you're a working class white American, and you live in a state that had policies like cutting away healthcare and blocking the Affordable Care Act. Allowing the easy flow of guns massive tax cuts that defended roads, bridges and schools. And what I found was that those policies that were supposed to make your life. Great ended up from a health perspective making your own life as dangerous as risky as did secondhand smoke or as best as our car crashes, these policies themselves really functioned as risks to your own health. So what is whiteness in the context of this book or what I look at is really what I call racial resentment linked to whiteness. And so what I'm tracking is a story of the ways that politics that are anti immigrant anti-government progun kind of about what are called backlash politics that are couched in a kind of racial resentment. This resentment that basically minorities or immigrants are taking away. Villages that are due to white Americans. What I track is the ways that those things I work their way into state level policies and then into national level policies. You're separating out that this is not because people are racist. But that the policies have racist component. I interviewed many people over seven or eight years for this book, I certainly encountered many examples of overtly racist sentiments, no, no doubt about that. But ultimately what I found is that the health risk to working class Americans came not from their individual racism or intentions. I didn't really try to assess what's in somebody's heart. I didn't know. And I think that's very complicated. What I found was that the risk came. If you lived in a county city or state that had these kind of racially anxious or racial backlash policies that dictate your health in a way these backlash policies. I mean, this is a long time coming this is not just from the election of Donald Trump or a specific event. What we're seeing? Right now is that these these tensions that have been brewing for quite some time. These concerns again about immigration about about taking away people's firearms about the overspread of government ABC. You're absolutely right. They've been brewing since the forties fifties and sixties. But right now, I think is a particularly urgent issue because these policies that have been localized just to either the extreme, right or two particular states now are impacting national policy. And so the implications are much broader before we get into the case studies somebody's gonna look at this and say, look he is open and say he comes from a family of Democrats, even though he interviewed all of these people's how do we separate your own biases coming into these interviews. I try to be very open about my up my own background and not just in the book, and I write about that quite a bit. But also in the people I spoke with and part of my intention is that I'm trying to find some kind of middle ground. In other words, here are urgent issues of life and death. And it wasn't like I. Any kind of a sumptuous that I'm on the I'm on the side for wanting longer life. And they wanted sort of life part of what I was studying was the frameworks of whiteness. Why is it hard to talk about whiteness? And so in a way that I didn't want to create this category of us and them, but it was also an education for me because I learned the full extent to which people identify with these politics. So this liberal idea that people are just going to get talked out of their support for Trump when they see particular effects. I hope my book puts that to rest. Yeah. Let's go to about Missouri. This is a state where you grew up in Kansas City. You got your medical degree there? But yet you say that it's really gun policy. There is worth taking a very close. Look at why Missouri is a very interesting example of this particular dynamic, the Missouri. That I grew up in the Kansas City that I grew up in had some what I what I felt at the time and everybody felt at the time to be some quite commonsense gun laws. In other words, before two thousand seven two thousand eight you could carry a gun in Kansas or Missouri. There were long histories of hunting. Traditions of gun ownership, but you had to go to the sheriff's office or go through a process in order to get a particular permit, and what starts happening in two thousand and eight is a steady erosion of the kind of laws and regulations that govern how people buy guns where they can carry guns, and what you see are dramatic expansions in in just rates of gun ownership in the state, and that goes hand in hand with increasing rates of gun, trauma, gun gun shooting factors like that. My found some pretty shocking trends on one hand many of the people I spoke with within African American communities. Ironically, felt that having a bunch of people around with guns was a form of intimidation. One man, I spoke with outside of Kansas City told me that he an African American a Vietnam vet he told me that he didn't go to Sam's Club anymore because there were all these white guys walking down the aisles with guns as if they were in the wild west, and he felt like they were trying to intimidate him. And I heard that again and again on the flip side. Side. I spoke with many white Americans on I went to very quite pro gun areas, and I talked to them and really gained an understanding of how they saw guns as part of their part of their identity in a way part of their political identity part of their racial identity. You even went to well groups were parents of or loved ones of people who've died by suicide or talking basically group therapy sessions. And the data that you find correlates between the rates at which white non Hispanics dine wizardry compared to anywhere else. Startling that said the group I went to and Missouri was in a way support group for for families who had lost children parents cousins friends boyfriends to gun suicide. I wasn't there to be pro or antigun? I really wanted to ask people how do you balance being pro gun in the way that you are and also pro safety, and this has seemed like an urgent moment to ask them. And what I found. I thought was pretty interesting which was that. It didn't really change people's ideas about gun politics. In other words, if I had an idea that somebody at that moment was going to change their idea about about guns that that was that was not the case people were just as devoted to their guns. At that time, even though they had lost a loved one to a death by gun suicide their beliefs were still steadfast. Well, what I'm saying is that it actually mattered how I asked the question. Right. And so if I asked them did this change your view about guns. They would always answer me. We're pro gun or this is gun country. So because that question implied that I was making a judgment or that I was down there with an agenda. If I said, what can we do? What can we do to create better safety and in our communities? What can we do to have safer societies? Even if we have a lot of guns. I felt like people were much more willing to talk to me about ideas that they had in Missouri the minute that guns became easier to obtain. This was a great thing for some people. They felt like it was much more. Freedom much more authority. They could carry guns at public. It was their constitutional mandate. But if you just track healthcare, Missouri starts to inch up in terms of particular silent risk factor, which is white male suicide. So all of a sudden, Missouri starts to set the graph on these kind of deaths of despair often rural white man, I'm who take their own lives by suicide. And so what I found a tracking Missouri is that there were there was a loss of hundreds of thousands of what I call lost white male life years and a dramatic dramatic cost to the to the state itself because the cost of not having white men working cost the state about three hundred million dollars just in the first couple of years, alone shift to Tennessee where you work now, and you live some of the time and you're talking about tennesseans making decisions against their own better, health and. Interests spy, refusing for Medicaid expansion, right? I did focus groups along with some of my colleagues with white and black men who were middle and low income in Tennessee was the profound ways in which people's political ideology push them into positions where they were rejecting healthcare reform, even if that healthcare reform would have met their own needs and quite dramatic ways. I met a man named Trevor who was quite medically L. He had a series of chronic medical conditions and came to the focus group with an oxygen mask. He was having a hard time breathing. He was having problems with his liver. He was somebody who very badly needed health, health and support. He was also living in a low income housing facility that was partially funded by by the government. And when I asked him gosh, what's your feeling about the potential of healthcare reform? He said, look, I know I'm dying. I know. I know that I have a very unhealthy lifestyle. I know that I could benefit from from treatments. But I want to tell you that I'm not going to support the Affordable Care Act because it means that my tax tax dollars are going to go too lazy minorities and immigrants. And so in a way, what he was saying was that his idea of this particular ideology was so profound that even even on death's doorstep. He was unwilling to think about a government program that might benefit everyone. And for me with this spoke to was this bigger bigger ideology about this concern this concern about somebody taking away. What's mine if you live in Tennessee, and you are white American and your state as Tennessee was basically effectively blocked the expansion of the Affordable Care Act? You're gonna live about a two to three weeks shorter lifespan. And so the question is are your politics worth three weeks of life? That's probably an open debate. Is there an identity their that? They're bonding into is there a. Resistance that they feel part of the issues themselves become racial identities. The minute we're talking about ObamaCare or guns or tax cuts the minute they become caught up in the American political system right now, they become racial identities. And so it's absolutely the case that people's racial identity. In other words, this is what we means to be Republican. This is what it means to be right depended on them taking up a position in this case in Tennessee that was against the against the Affordable Care Act. You took a look at Kansas, and Kansas famously rolled back taxes and infrastructure funding significantly, and it was a big test really for the rest of the country that we're watching that. What happened Kansas Kansas was the testing ground for what became the GOP tax Bill that was passed in two thousand sixteen Kansas, basically, how to govern a governor Sam Brownback who enacted massive tax cuts. The state and cut away funding for roads bridges schools, including the schools that many of his supporters children attend it. The the promise at the time was that this was going to create a renaissance of prosperity. It was a renaissance of prosperity for many upper income people, but lower income people in middle income people saw steadily steady decay of the support systems of their lives. And so they saw their their infrastructure fail. Roads got less. Attention bridges started to fall apart. And probably the most shocking part was that the school system. Kansas had this fantastic school system. It used to be in the top ten in the country, and it fell to the mid forties in terms of reading and math proficiency. And also what you saw was that people started to drop out of high school, and because these were affecting many people actually across the board. What what I show in the book is that dropping out of high school correlates with about a seven to nine years shorter life expectancy. See when you aggregate that. How does that how does that work? Well, basically, if you drop out of high school, you have fewer career opportunities fewer opportunities to access healthcare. You probably, you know, you might not have health insurance that might lead you into different kinds of decisions. And so it was actually relatively straightforward math. And that the the nine year life expectancy has been reproduced in other studies, and I just applied that to Kansas, and what I saw was that this was leading to a dramatic decrease in potential to potential white life years seems to conservatives what a scapegoat the poor well, liberals on a scapegoat, the rich. What I did find powerful in talking to many conservative voters was I think you're exactly right that their concern was always directed downward. In other words, people who were suffering ill health in in these focus groups in Tennessee. Their concerns were the people below them who were nipping at their heels potentially immigrants are minorities, but they never looked up. Right. They never thought gosh, maybe a corporation is benefiting from my from my bad state, maybe wealthy people who received the benefits of these particular tax cuts. And so in a way there was there was very a quite a shortage of looking upwards. Whereas I think you're exactly right. The dynamic is exactly exactly opposite potentially for some of the liberal politics that we're seeing right up you point out that. Whites in specific are voting against their health interests or the biological interests. But it's pretty bipartisan cross racial right of Democrats. Do it minorities. Do it. We do it all the time. Right. And so again, I want to be quite clear about that that it's this is not just a Republican thing. We make decisions that are bad for our health all the time. And I mean, give it credit these policies if you wanna be on on the winning team. I mean, probably people in many of the areas that I talked to said, well, hey, buddy, we're winning election. So don't try to talk me out. Don't try to talk me out of my politics. There's a long history of democratic initiatives from urban policies two policies about HIV two issues that led up to the opioid epidemic and others that are not just linked to one particular party. So I'm not trying to say that everybody should become a democrat in this book part of what I'm saying is that these ideologies of race and inability to talk about whiteness in this country leads. S two polarizing positions that make it hard for us to work back from a Republican White male that you might have interviewed in this book for this book would say, you know, what the reason that I'm not taking this. I'm part of this resistance. I really firmly believe philosophically that my opposition to this matters because it will be better for the country. If the Affordable Care Act doesn't work or if that there are there's greater access to weapons or guns. This book is an object lesson in the lesson that I think that liberals were very slow to respond to which was the depth of commitment that many working class white Americans had to particular positions. Even if those positions were bad to them people were quite literally willing to lay down on the tracks put their own lives. I mean in Kansas people were willing to support tax cuts that affected their own kids schools, and I think liberals really miss that. They missed the depth of that particular kind of commitment, and certainly for people who care about particular, social issues, like the courts and abortion in factors like that. They that felt like an fair tradeoff for them. Again. I think that's an important point. This is a book about the depth of that commitment to those positions. The book is called dying of whiteness Jonathan muscle. Thanks so much. Thank you so much, sweetie. Tricky that one, but that is it for us for now. Remember, you can always listen to podcasts. See us online at dot com and follow me on Instagram and Twitter. Thanks for joining. And goodbye from London. Are you interested in learning how great companies grow? Download the Marceca podcast tech podcast tells the stories of real world marketers who use technology to generate growth and a chief business and career success from advertising to software as service to data getting brands authentically integrated the content performs better the TV advertising. Typical life span of an article about twenty four to thirty six hours where reaching out to the right person with the right message and clear. Call an action that it's just a matter of timing ready to learn the secrets of technology driven marketing download the Martin podcast just search Martin A R T C H wherever you download your podcasts.

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Peter Navaroo, Husain Haqqani, Julia Loffe, Jehane Noujaim, Karim Amer

Amanpour

58:23 min | 2 years ago

Peter Navaroo, Husain Haqqani, Julia Loffe, Jehane Noujaim, Karim Amer

"Thanks for listening to this show and you can let us know what you think about it. At pod thoughts dot com that's pod thoughts dot com and thanks again for listening and welcomed among four. Here's what's coming up if I had a two percent chance of losing the election I think China would probably say let's wait. Let's wait maybe trump will lose. We can deal with another dope another round of U.. S. China trade tools as Washington hands out out billions to help its farmers at the sharp end. What's the game plan a rare conversation with the president's Trade Guru Senior Adviser Peter Navarro Plus Police Detain more than a thousand protesters in Moscow OSCO and in Afghanistan is the Taliban's smelling blood is the U._S.? Too Eager to withdraw I speak with top foreign policy experts about the weekends worrying developments and who has seen an advertisement that has convinced you that your microphone is listening to your conversations. When big tech knows you better than you know yourself? What does that mean for our democracies are Hari? SREENIVASAN speaks with the dredges of the new documentary treat the Great Hack phone welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London American and Chinese negotiators head to Shanghai trying to end the year long escalating trade war. That's biting at both their economies president trump began the standoff last last year slapping tariffs on some Chinese imports in an attempt to force Beijing to end what they call unfair trade practices but few expected to end anytime soon and the doubter in chief is the president himself now. I think that China will probably say let's wait. It's fourteen fifteen months of the election. Let's see if one of these people that give the United States away. Let's see one of them could possibly get elected and I'll tell you what when I win like almost immediately. They're all going to sign deals that they're going to be phenomenal deals for the country but <HES> so. I don't know that they have I don't. I don't know if they're gonNA make etc.. Maybe they will. Maybe they want. I don't care because we're taking in tens of billions of dollars. Worth of tariffs and the farmers are happy because I gave them sixteen billion dollars out of the tariffs. He's referring to a sixteen ecksteen billion dollar federal aid package which was announced on Thursday intended to help those farmers who produce things like soybeans and pork and who are hurt by China's retaliatory tariffs the farmer's though not all happy the president of the American Farm Bureau Federation said last week the quote America's farmers ultimately want trade more than a so. What can they expect Peter? Navarro is a senior advisor to the president focusing on trade policy and he joins me now from Washington for kind of a rare conversation Jim Welcome to the program Mr Navarro Christiane. I'm so let's first take what the president himself says that he's already pouring cold water on these talks which due to open tomorrow in Shanghai doesn't necessarily think there there will be a deal do agree that it's not gonNA happen. Here's what I can tell you. We have the best United States Trade Representative in our history Robert Lighthizer on a plane with Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin on their way to Shanghai to negotiate for what I think will be at least the twelfth meeting on this issue. My strong preference here is to let these negotiations take place behind closed doors doors and if you WANNA deals reached there will be full transparency. The only thing I can tell you Christiane is this is not a trade deal in the traditional sense where one country lowers tariffs and the other country entry lowers tariffs the problem we have with China is structural China engages in various forms of economic aggression and let me just check off the list and see if we agree that this is happening first of all it's it's well known that China hacks our business computers to extract our trade secrets China engages in what's called force technology transfer an exchange for market access into China. That's wrong China steals. Those are intellectual property the tune of several hundred billion dollars a year China dumps products into our markets for steel aluminum robotics autos. Whatever it is well below cost that's outside the bounds of international trade? The state owned enterprises of China unlike the capitalist enterprises of much of the rest of the world engage in various unfair subsidised practices China has a history of currency manipulation and finally and and seriously China's major source of Fenton all in the United States which is killing over fifty thousand Americans year so these are the things that will be discussed behind closed doors. I'm optimistic that we can continue to move forward on this but that is all I will say about that so that's interesting because you do list along along series of disputes you how many people would agree with you on the intellectual property and and the other such things that you've mentioned so. Do you believe that there's a possibility acidity for some wins even if it's not a whole trade deal. That's that struck one the other thing I'll say is that there what president trump has done in two and a half years. He's truly truly remarkable in that. He's brought together a consensus on the issue that we must deal with the China Issue <hes> if you look at polling on this eight out of ten Republicans support the China tariffs and over over half of Americans support the tariffs in a rare show of unanimity on Capitol Hill both Democrats and Republicans are strongly behind the president. I think it's important and I've been to this rodeo before <hes> after the the meeting aries. It's really important now that there'd be little discussion in the press about this because most of it will be inaccurate and that we simply let the negotiators do their job if we're able to do do that then we we may have deal and if we don't we'll have terrorists and as the president said we're taking in <hes> tens of billions of dollars of tariffs and in the process and this is the important thing those tariffs defend American farmers ranchers manufacturing workers against the structural problems we face with China silts. Let's be optimistic. I think I mean the stock market's very bullish. The economy's very bullish. I think there's a lot of other things going on in the economic worlds such as the United States Mexico candidate agreement that are important to US administration and I'd be happy to talk about that but let's let's move on from China if we can well no let me ask you a couple of things because I'm you've raised a huge number of of issues so I I want to ask you about this. Look the president basically said trade was a good and they're easy to win but this has been going on for more than a year now and it's not one and you I heard what the farmers said they would much rather have trade deals than aid and some of them have bitterly complaining about how expensive things are becoming an how they're being heard by retaliatory tariffs so I guess do you think it changed of tactical strategy is required. I think that on the issue of trade while we have in this country is a world where numerous countries not just is China Japan the European Union engage in systematically unfair practices and one of the problems we face Christiane is under the rules of the World Trade Organization. It's perfectly legal if not fair for other countries to charge us much higher tariffs in engage in non tariff barriers so our our philosophy in the administration <hes> with President Trump taking the lead on this is fair balanced and reciprocal trade and this is what defines the president's mission and I think that it's important to look and see just how strong the economy is under his leadership and under this move basically to get this trading regime in a better place and then we've created over six million jobs we got seven million people off food stamps. We see historically historically low unemployment rates Blacks Hispanics women the disabled veterans one of the things that I think is particularly interesting. Is that real wages arising disproportionately for. For those blue collar manufacturing workers in one of my favorite statistics is the fact that we've created over five hundred thousand manufacturing jobs compared to a loss of two hundred thousand manufacturing jobs and can't you bomb a Biden administration say this is what we're focused on and my point here is that China is a small part of the bigger economic puzzle and we shouldn't get fixated and I'm not GonNa do that in this interview right but you've just talked about the American economy and you know you say don't get fixated but you guys picked this fight with China and I'm trying to figure out whether you have an endgame the trade tariffs were I mean just the tariff you started the tariffs and that is actually actually a tax which is urging both Chinese and Americans all the economists say that but I'd like to pick you up on ost you the bigger picture as you want and that is about the economy so yes the economy has been doing really well and many in the corporate and and and I guess high income group have praised the tax cuts and the corporate sort of issues that have come forth but we've seen on Friday the Commerce Department reporting the economy grew two point five percent last year which is down. I'm from the estimate of three percent and people are saying that look yes. It's bubbling along well but a lot like Obama's. was you know sort of good moderate steady growth so I'm wondering whether you whether you concern concerned that you might have a whole different aim with China which is more of a defeated as a strategic rival than just take on these these these in your view legitimate economic issues and trade issues. So what are they give you <hes> some context here. I was on the campaign with the president. I'm one of the few Kellyanne Conway calls the unbroken threads and during the campaign of president ran on four points the policy compass on the economy was was tax cuts to stimulate investment deregulation to lower the costs of business so they could compete globally it was unleashing our energy sector and today we are incredibly are the number one oil producer in the world and it was bringing about fair trade in all of those things have allowed us to grow significantly faster than we saw in the Obama Biden era they were at at around two or two percent <hes> or below <hes> we hit three percent in two thousand eighteen. We hit three point one percent in q one to your question. Are we worried about this latest number. I think the biggest problem that we had that's reflected in that data is the Federal Reserve which foolishly began back in March two thousand eighteen to raise interest rates <hes> what would be a total of one hundred basis points and what higher interest traits do Christiane is they depress investment and they depress our exports and if you look at this two point one percent growth rate that we hit in Q. Two it was above expectations. That's good news but where did we lose it. We lost a full point because of lower private sector investment and we also lost two thirds of a point to lower exports and on top of that we lost a point four of a point to the Boeing seven thirty-seven Max problems though we could have been north of four percent if the Fed hadn't raised interest rates and if Boeing and had not had that problem <hes> that's good news because this week it's widely expected that the Fed will lower interest rates. I hope they lower fifty basis points and a full hundred by lease June of twenty twenty if they do that hat and if we pass the U._S. Mexico candidate agreement I can guarantee you will will fly well past Dow thirty thousand. We'll be over three percent growth rate okay so let me just stay in this economy. Let me just jump in a little bit because I I just want to ask you about reports on. You're talking about exports and trying to make us exports more attractive and try to boost the economy etc so those reports as you know because you focus on them over the weekend that you would recommend did last Tuesday that the president weaken the U._S. dollar by about ten percent in order to make exports more attractive to foreign buyers one person in the room according to Politico said that you were had barely begun your presentation and unquote before getting slaughtered by the president now is that true did you recommend is the president against devaluing the dollar. What happens in the oval stays in the oval and I'm not going to be talking about what happened in the oval that hi day right? Let me ask you this. Do you accept are well. Do you think the president wants to devalue the dollar and do you agree with most economists who say it's critical that the world's reserve currency agency which is the dollar does not get devalued because that adds a whole nother level of economic burden that being the reserve currency you have so many benefits and if you devalue you lose those benefits so this discussion is basically fruit of the poison tree that discussion in the oval never should've went public and I really going to talk about currency. I do that in private with our trade team mm-hmm and currency publicly as the province of the President Treasurer. I guess I just want to ask your opinion on whether a strong dollar is important if you want to continue to have the benefits of being the world's reserve currency. I think that <hes> the terminology of a strong versus weak dollar is counterproductive to understanding the macro forces that shape the U._S. economy in the world economy. It's not a question of strong long as a week is a pejorative term in most people's minds. The issue is whether the dollar is overvalued and I think it's fair to say that most economists believe that to be true overvalued dollar will lead to fewer exports more imports higher trade deficit and slower growth the question then becomes what do you do about that if anything and that discussion will happen when it involves me behind closed doors publicly so I I'm glad we have you here because you are quite a controversial fellow. I mean you do draw a lot of slings and arrows from presidential the advisers and economists and the media and stuff so let me just run through a few of them for you and you can respond so the New York Times described you as being so far outside the mainstream that you endorse few of the key tenets of the economic profession from the New Yorker says your views on trade and China ah so radical that even with your assistance. This writer was unable to find another economist who fully agrees with them. Do How do you react to that. You ever stop to consider acidic. What such a big section of the economic landscape thinks of you so? Can I ask you a question if you like but this is really you on questions. I'm interviewing you just one question do you do you agree with the with the premise now that that China and its economic model provides a negative effect on the global economy would could we at least agree on that well. You know what I'm not an economist I certainly do you understand the problems with with intellectual property and all the other issues that you guys are dealing with. I'm just looking at the facts that are that are happening right now and I just wanted to know just your reactions and for instance when Gary Cohen of former colleagues Ed you know when you're just making now out saying up yeah yeah yeah so so here's the thing the Great Wayne Gretzky hockey player said that he always tried to skate to where the puck was going to be a I think right now is conventional wisdom in Washington that China has basically adopted in economic model which harms the United States after they joined the W._T._o.. We lost over seventy thousand factories over five million manufacturing jobs. That's the conventional wisdom today in two thousand nineteen. I wrote a book about that in two thousand six which basically away today reads like any government report on the Chinese economy so at the time I was widely ridiculed in newspapers like the Financial Times and was accused of hyperbole a in today that book is quaint in terms of describing the problem so you I worry about <hes> people who criticize me for not seeing the chessboard correctly. No I don't how accurate for example by macro forecaster by profession before I got into Washington D._C.. I- I-. I forecast the housing bubble forecast the stock market crash in two thousand seven and so no I I don't mind being ahead of the curve. Donald trump was ahead of the curve on trade back in the eighties and now here we are all right well. Let's hope that we have a resolution to this trade war. I want to ask you to wrap up something. That's very very important you know being ahead of the curve and and seeing these existential crises back in two thousand seven avenue certainty of your time and maybe even ahead of the curve on global warming you said that it's a very significant problem and carbon dioxide emissions of the principal cause of global warming you also said economists correctly and perennially argue that the most efficient and direct pass to American energy independence and clean skies would simply be to tax oil imports gasoline as well as carbon and you actually supported President Obama's adoption of wind energy and carbon taxes to combat climate change. I mean now you work for a president who thinks the opposite and is busy rolling back all sorts of regulations and empowering the fossil fuel industry. I just want to know what you think of that. Does that keep you up at night. You still feel the same person on climate that you were in two thousand seven or if you changed one of the things I think the president did that was absolutely correct was getting out of the Paris climate accord and the reason why I believe that was the correct thing to do is is that was basically a free pass to other countries like India and China to pollute. If we had gone into that agreement the American economy would have suffered mightily. This is not my lane gene. The government official. I don't work on climate. Change haven't worked on that for a minute. Since I've been here my mission Christiana take it very seriously is to create good jobs at good wages for the men and women limit of America who work with their hands and whether it's a shipyard in Marinette Wisconsin or combat vehicle plant in Lima Ohio or an F sixteen production line in Greenville <hes> these are the kind of jobs that editor reviving this country and helping people who wear blue collar is not white ones take pride in what they do and be able to have a strong families and once again enjoy boy the American dream here and that's that's what my mission is so that's that's what I focus on every day seven days a week sixty hours a week and a modern privileged to serve this president all right Peter Navarro Sara. Thank you so much for joining us today. Guys are terrible taking care of their health. Whether it's a knee injury bad back or something worse guys usually more comfortable rub some dirt on it than seeing a doctor. I'm guilty guilty of myself. 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GET ROMAN DOT com slash Amanpour. The newsworthy gives you all the day's news in less than ten minutes each weekday and there are stories about politics tech trends business and entertainment but it's more convenient and less depressing than your typical news. I call it fast fair and fund so it's fast it's less than ten minutes. It's fair and unbiased. I pulled from a collection of news sources as you can many different perspectives in one place. It's also fun high energy casual and upbeat quickly get informed and get on with your day with the newsworthy search for the newsworthy or go to that newsworthy dot com the cases. We gotta find who wrote this. No we do that. We find the killer. This science defined out police used Luminol a chemical which glows when it comes into contact with the iron component in blood that drama but where was the rifle and Richmond was telling the truth for Renwick files the legendary true crime show is now a podcast join investigators as they take on the toughest cases with cutting edge scientific scientific tools subscribe now with apple podcasts with new episodes every Monday and Thursday. You'll never miss out on getting your forensic fix turning now to some big developments concerning the United States with regards Russia and Afghanistan I Moscow where police returned opposition leader Alexei Navalny to jail today after he was hospitalized but lies with a mysterious illness. His lawyer said that he was poisoned. Navan was detained before this weekend's big protests to demand fair election of violent police crackdown on Saturday led to the detention of a thousand and seventy four people and lessen the headlines but much more deadly the war in Afghanistan more than twenty dead and at least fifty wounded after this weekend's attack on the office of President Ghani's running mate in upcoming elections at the same time the former CIA director writer Michael Morale poured cold water all over the U._S.. Peace talks with the Taliban calling them quote a charade for more now. I'm joined by Judy Yaffe who's long covered Russia and is now a correspondent for G.. Q. Magazine and by Hussein Connie the former Pakistani ambassador to the United States whose immersed in Afghanistan policy welcome both of you to the program. Can I just turn to you first Julian ask you about these protests. These are the most significant gonNA protest in a long time. Some are saying you know since President Putin's twenty twelve victory. Where do you think these are headed and how serious is it? The NAVALI may or may not have been hurt perhaps with chemicals according to his <hes> his own lawyers in in prison. You know that's a great question Christiane. <hes> these are certainly the biggest protests in Moscow. We've seen in a while but Novon there has been a really good at basically getting people out into the streets. He's done this a few times including across all of Russian march twenty seventeen again when over thousand people were detained the Putin's ratings are at their lowest point since they've you've been since those big protests in two thousand eleven twenty twelve Russia's wealth gap is now the largest in the world. <hes> the mood is certainly shifting people are getting tired of all the corruption but the question is what happens <hes> these these are still. This is still a tiny proportion of not just the Russian population but the Moscow population. They're not out there for economic reasons for kind of abstract political principles. They WANNA be represented on a very small largely insignificant body the Moscow City Council. They're not even allowed to be on the ballot. <hes> let alone you know <hes> run the city or their country but isn't that Julia the point. I mean you just raised that the million dollar question if it's such an insignificant I'm in a city council in Moscow. Why the massive crackdown by the police while it's it goes with Putin zero tolerance tolerance approach to these things you know you don't give these people an inch because if they're seen as is in any way legitimate in any way a real threat to him then it kind of undermines the whole basis of his power at this point he has been in charge for almost two decades and the whole the his popularity such as it is rests on the idea that there are no alternatives to him that there is nobody that can can take over for him therefore he has to continue ruling the country so he cannot allow he doesn't even say Novon is his basically biggest most organized threat he his name isn't even been pronounced on T._v.? You know these these protests got no coverage on state TV or almost no coverage so a lot of Russians. Don't even know they happened and that's that's on purpose. Let me look very isolated marginal movement Hussein Hassani. Let me just turn to you because I mean in sort of the election lane so to speak elections are underway or at least the campaign in Afghanistan. We had this massive attack on one of the candidates over the weekend he he survived but some twenty people were killed at the same time a Hussein. The United States is involved in talks with the toddler bomb which are not peace talks. Tell me that this needs to be a counter intuitive narrative going on who's saying what what what you read in the U._S.. Aims in Afghanistan right now to stand it seems that president trump has decided that he wants to keep his promise to the American public that he is going to withdraw from Afghanistan and. Talks are essentially withdrawal talks purposes to try and give the impression that there was some kind of settlement before America left instead of leaving arbitrarily <hes> the <hes> American negotiating team has not been paying attention to the Afghan government which is America's ally and with which America has a bilateral security agreement and the Taliban continue to mount attacks making it very clear that they haven't changed so all that these talks are intended for is to be able able to provide a fig leaf for withdrawal and Hussein that is similar to what the former C._I._A.. Director Michael Morell has said calling them a charade a face saving way for the United States to pull out of Afghanistan so I mean that that is pretty intense when the former CIA director says that he's not the only one the former American ambassador to Afghanistan and Pakistan Ryan Crocker has said the same thing that are several of us who have this opinion and and we base our opinion on history. Let's be very clear. The Taliban arend totalitarian ideological movement. They have a particular world view. We know how they're treated the people of Afghanistan when they will they got into power with the support of Pakistan astounded still have that support even now the negotiating process essentially has been facilitated with by Pakistan for which the Pakistani prime minister was rewarded with a visit to Washington D._C.. But the Taliban have just simply not changed changed so all they're doing is they are negotiating with the Americans so that the Americans can leave without looking like they are cutting and running even though they are cutting and running and just briefly again before I turn back to Julia you you said that essentially the Taliban is smelling blood and you you actually raise a something that donald trump himself wrote in the odds of the deal back in one thousand nine hundred seven. He says the worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it that makes the other guy I smell blood and then you're dead but I mean it looks like that's what you're saying. The administration the president is doing well. Look Christiane all of us want peace and if these were genuine peace talks we would really all support them. I still think that negotiated settlement is needed. The negotiated settlement should essentially be based on the premise that Pakistan will no longer support the Taliban that the Taliban will not attack civilians and will give up some of the good elements of the ideology with does not recognize contemporary concepts of human rights that should be the basis of peace and then the Afghan government which exists and which is a reality should be an integral part of the process rather than and just be a marginal actor as it has been reduced to unless all of those conditions are met these will not be seen as peace talks the Taliban are already saying and their own media that we have one and we are about to be victorious and we must not forget that as recently as me I kinda counted the Taliban among its allies so essentially these are just false premises on which America plans to withdraw from Afghanistan instead of a genuine peace deal and and that is why the Taliban Senate that desparation and I'm pointing out that you should not negotiate with a sense of desperation hanging over you and actually taught about spokespeople have listed all the conditions you just mentioned as fantasies so so let us move over to you Julia again because you also have if it's not going well for the U._S.. There it's not necessarily going well for the U._S.. In Russia either what is I mean what can the United States do if anything at this point to encourage President Putin into the democratic space is that just I mean I see you shaking your head. It's completely unlikely in the current dynamic. Well you had a secretary of state. Mike pompeo being asked about these protests and he basically shrugged it off which is such a departure from precedent on the U._S.. Precedent on these things and honestly it's not surprising we are now headed by president. Donald trump who openly admires man like Vladimir Putin like Kim Jong where he said you know when Kim Jong UN talks his people sit up and listen and that's what I want he has asked Vladimir Putin for advice on how to deal with Pesky journalists and the fake news as he called them <hes> <hes>. I should add that this weekend the independent TV station the basically one of the only ones left in Russia TV rain had police show show up at its headquarters at station and the editor in chief of WHO's a friend of mine was called in for hours hours and hours of questioning. The whole newsroom is on edge. More journalists are going to be called in for questioning potentially as <hes> either as witnesses or as participants in a criminal case so you know again we've it it comes from the very top in the United States and this is a we're led by a president who openly admires authoritarians and clearly wants to be like one so I think until this president is out of office. We're not gonNA see any kind of coaxing as you said of Russia Russia or any other kind of authoritarian country into the Democratic column but but the very very real impact of Russia on America's institutions continue so like Putin or not the American institutions are at risk as Robert Muller pointed out in his testimony before Congress last week about election interferes. I just WANNA play a little bit of soundbite and actually get both of you to weigh in on this important factor I our investigation found that the Russian government interfered in our election in sweeping and systematic fashion we are doing is we sit here and they expect to do it during the next campaign so Julia I mean yes I mean it looks like is happening. It's underway it's going to happen any light at the end of that tunnel in terms of U._S.. Efforts to protect against that well you also had the Senate report that said that Russia which we did not know about this before that Russia probed the election infrastructure all fifty states in two thousand sixteen and from Russia's point of view if you do it you succeed and you don't really get punished why not keep doing it if it works <hes> you had the Senate Republicans like Mitch McConnell Block any laws that would strengthen <hes> election infrastructure donald trump just basically pushed out damn coats a very good director of national intelligence and his nominating <hes> basically a political operator of a congressman who has decried the Muller investigation instigation all these election security efforts to be the director of National Intelligence I think in part because the Russians helped him and as he admitted to George Stephanopoulos from the Oval Office if a foreign country wants to help him win he take that help again this comes from the very top unfortunately in the United States and we have a president who doesn't seem to you know who's willing to win at all costs even if a foreign adversary helps him so he is not interested in strengthening our Election Infrastructure Berkshire so Hussein to go back to what you said <hes> sort of pick up this thread about elections about winning president trump as you pointed out promise to bring the troops home and you know we've got billions of dollars spent we've got you know hundreds as of aircraft and thousands of rounds of ammunition multiple hundreds of thousands. Nobody really to set up the proper Afghan security forces so why shouldn't the president and the American people say okay enough already. We've been there since nine eleven. I think the president is right in saying enough already <hes> the question is does that basically mean cutting down costs and Alana Stanford which the American government should be talking to the Afghan government <hes> should it be about reducing the expenses of the American forces in Afghanistan. You must remember that everything from chewing gum to guns go from America rather than anything being procured locally so if those costs can be cut and a smaller presence can actually really do the job. Why not my point of course is that a lot of this has to do with how American domestic politics is played? The president just wants to announce victory without having victory and I don't think that that is fair to the American people and it certainly is not fair to the Afghan people who will be left at the mercy of the Taliban even though the government signed a bilateral security agreement with the United States <hes> under which the Americans were to provide assistance and support in building sink America <hes> of land forces look. Let's not get the strong the guns for the Taliban long before the American showed up in Afghanistan. The Americans came after nine eleven. There was a small group of Afghans fighting the Taliban even then without any support from outside site. The Afghan people will fight for their country. The question is does the United States want to be seen as the country that came in big and left without really protecting the gains of the last seventeen years massively important issues Hussein who Connie and Julia Yaffe thank you so much indeed and as we've discussed Russia poses a particular conundrum for the trump administration given its election meddling last week as we said the former special counsel said. At the Moscow still at it ramping up for the election twenty twenty it's weapon of course is the Internet a sometimes lawless space where citizens data is increasingly being collected without their knowledge or permission and for often alarming reasons the new netflix film the Great Hag takes a hard look at the ethics of big data and how it's been used to drive wedges of fear and hate to win elections and to undermine our democracies Co Directors Kareem Amer and John James A._M.. Who Made Control Room and the square raise the red flag with our Hari Sreenivasan? Thanks for joining us. I A quick refresher. Course you know in a way your whole movie does this but for people who might not have been paying attention to every news headline about facebook and Cambridge Analytica what did Cambridge analytic could do Cambridge analytic realized that your phone is not listing on you but that that feeling that you're listening on you is evidence that you're a lot more predictable persuadable than you might think how because you're giving all of these digital footprints of yourself constantly into the system of surveillance capitalism. There's a Voodoo doll basically of you that is very predictable and it is guessing what you WanNa do next and Cambridge analytica being a behavior change agency <hes> US the most powerful Behavior Change Agency facebook to Geico collect five thousand data points on every American voter and use those data points to find the key persuadable audience in swing states and target them with customized advertisement all right. Let's take a look at had a clipper your trailer all of Your interactions. Your credit card swipes web searches locations likes. They're all collected in real time into a trillion dollar. A year industry real change was Cambridge only the trump campaign and the brexit campaign they started using information Cambridge analytica claim to have five thousand data points on every American voter. I thought tracking down all these Cambridge SCA employees someone else that you should be calling the committee's Britney Kaiser Kaiser is up once a key player inside Cambridge analytica casting herself as a whistle blower reason why Google fees are powerful companies in the world is because last year data surpassed oil in value it is the most valuable asset on earth John what makes us different than how campaigns have worked forever. They've had ways to target people. They've had negative ads against the opponent's houses different well in following Brittany. She talked a lot about working in the Obama campaign where this was kind of it was the very beginnings of using data and the Obama campaign used data but in a very sort of remedial way at that point in time this is different in that because of the Technological Michael Advances people can be targeted so people are no longer voting for issues. They are listening to ads that are targeted based on what the Algorithm knows about you. Let's take a look at a clip of <hes> Britain describing how it worked remember. Those facebook quizzes that we used to form personality models for all voters in the U._S.. The truth is we didn't target every American voter wondering equally the bulk of our resources went into targeting those minds we thought we could change. We call them the persuadable everywhere in the country but the persuade balls that were the ones in swing states like Michigan Wisconsin Pennsylvania and Florida. Now each of these states were broken down by precinct doc so you can see there are twenty two thousand persuadable voters in this precinct targeted enough persuadable people in the right precincts the no states would turn red instead of Blue <music> the same firm Cambridge Analytical was also working on the League campaign. What were they doing so through the testimonies of Brittany Kaiser who's one of the central characters in the film and you know when we meet Brittany Kaiser heiser she's kind of in Thailand and she has fled from her former life as a key member of this company came genetic which had worked on both brexit and the trump campaign as well as many other elections around the world she finds evidence in her files that Cambridge worked on Brexit and she has evidence to prove that you provided that evidence to parliament <hes> under parliamentary privilege in her testimony and she also <hes> in that testimony explain gene that the Information System the information technologies that we use by Cambridge were classified by the British government as weapons-grade information systems that were export controlled that that that is what we're talking we're here? We're not talking about just oh well. Everybody could just send an ad or to know what we're talking about taking military great technologies and applying them on a domestic population without the domestic population having consent during an election cycle <hes> upsets basically the kinds of tools and and weapons grade tools that were used abroad whether to try to change the minds of potential kids joining isis or or oh change populations instead those same tools where used on the British population and the the American population did they cheat. Is this cheating to use these technological tools today to get your side to win a campaign pain well if you when you watch the film you'll see that that question has asked in parliament and Christopher Wiley answers that yes this is cheating <hes> and he says that well the next question that's asked of him as well. Did it really work. Did it really caused brexit. Did it really did it really a help. Believe campaign did it really <hes> affect trump being elected <hes> and <hes> his answer was well. You know when you have doping you. ooh You don't say well with the guy you know with. The guy have come in first place anyway he cheated and so he should be eliminated so yes according to the people that we followed this was cheating yeah. I think it's about understanding that you know it's about deciding what's for sale. What's happened in the advent of this new? <hes> surveillance capitalism system that we live in which is the term that extra Sean Zubov was the thought leader in the space has coined <hes> is that we have become the commodity as David Carroll says in the film and we as commodities we accept we allowed for all of our recordable behavior to be bought and sold and commodities now what's happened when it goes into an election cycle is that you have allowed commoditisation of the democratic process because you can buy and sell comp- nodes of people's personalities and behavior and influence it quite effectively and the problem with all of that is that it's it's happening in darkness. There's no transparency we have no ability to know where the ads what ads people saw where who paid for them <hes> and we've had no understanding of that now facebook has the answers but under the way in which our Arteta's currently regulated in this country we have no rights to our data right like we live in a country where we've allowed for all of our emails to be read by technology platforms. We live in a country where miners data can be transacted. We've to start asking these these questions about how much of ourselves for sale and what happens the integrity of the democratic process when so much of it becomes commodities the U._K.. Government said the parliament said they're election. System is not fit for purpose this. What does that mean? It means that the election laws are not able to withstand the technological advances that have led to the tools that have been used by Cambridge Analytica and other companies to come in in in the elections. I think that what we've what we're witnessing is a moment where the balance of power has shifted when you look at facebook for example facebook has over two billion constituents <hes> that it has access to so much of the detailed information yet facebook is not a democratic institution. Facebook doesn't have any responsibility necessary to all of us the users <hes> and facebook has not taken any credit <hes> or responsibility ability more importantly for any of the wreckage sites that we're seeing both in the United States and abroad whether it's the rowing crisis <hes> whether it's with information being used in weaponized and other locations around the world what's wreckage site when you talk about it that way. It's a term we kind of made up because we when we started making this film it was invisible it was how do you make the invisible visible. This is something that's happening in your brain and on the computer but it wasn't the makings of a visual. Visual movie while we started to look for wreckage sites and by wreckage sites we meant this is what happened because of what's happening with micro targeting and we felt like the two thousand sixteen was the wreckage site and Brexit Beca was the wreckage site and and the records the purpose of the wreckage sites were to show this vulnerability which is what a hack is a hack is the exploitation of vulnerability. I think the hack that we found to be interesting was the exploit the vulnerability any of our own minds and how are as moral creatures increasingly being shaped by these amoral algorithms how it would affect ourselves in our societies <hes> and as leave us with the question of who who dictates the ethics of these algorithms. I don't believe that anybody wakes up in Silicon Valley and says hey. How am I gonNA Wreck Democracy Today I? I don't think that's an active conversation just like I don't think any oil executive wakes up and says hey how am I going to pollute today but but the reality is is that as we saw in the industrial age where oil was the main commodity there was externalities and spillover effects that had a major have had major seidel costs the same time we are <unk> witnessing right now the extra analyses that have been caused by this love affair. We've had with technology where we assume that move fast and break things can always lead to just growth and innovation and and now the the reckoning point there's a lot of people who watch the film and Say Brittany what's going on with Britney issue more contrite off camera because as someone who knows how campaigns work how messaging messaging works it's also possible to see the film and say you know what she's playing these filmmakers and by extension us that this is really just part of a slick redemption tour at the very end I kind of see her having regrets but you guys spent a lot of time with her what what was going through her mind why she wanted to speak to you and how that evolution happened even while you were filming because you're filming during an active story we didn't know what to think of her. When we met her similar I think to an audience watching <hes> and our goal was to follow her and see how this journey unfolded? <hes> it's incredible when you meet somebody who has been in the Obama campaign and then wrote the first contract for the trump campaign trump pitched trump <hes> worked on brexit <hes> was had certain ties to Julian assange. <hes> was investigated by Mueller so in that way we we had a human being in this invisible story we had this human being that was going to take us into rooms that we would never otherwise get access to <hes> and so our job as filmmakers was to follow that journey and she was she allowed us to there was never a moment when she shut us out or asked us to turn off the camera and that was you know that's such a gift as a filmmaker <hes> but it's <hes> you know she's let let a complicated life <hes> and we <hes> we were excited to jump off a cliff with her but she's been in complicated situations and made complicated decisions. They think that it's never been more important than in these times these polarized times that we have stories that allow us to see how redemption is possible and what redemption looks like is is is not is is in our context with this film is about how people from different walks of life get together to tackle the problem like this here we have in the film a David Carroll a professor who decides to say you know I'm not GonNa wait for the Muller report to figure out what did or didn't happen. I'm going to start asking questions. <hes> and I'm going to ask a very simple question of can do have the right to have my own data. Do have the right to know what you know about me and how I was or wasn't targeted targeted and goes on this quest where he decides to hold power accountable and ends up suing came Gianluca. Let's take a look at a clip of the other characters and David Carroll. I was teaching digital media developing APPs so I knew that the data from our online activity wasn't just evaporating and as I dug deeper I realized these digital traces of ourselves are being mined into a trillion dollar a year industry. We are now the commodity but we were so in love with the gift and mystery connectivity activity that no one bothered to read the terms and conditions so what you might call surveillance capitalism silicon valley much. This is just the cost of innovation. What is the danger? What is the threat in that bigger picture when our data is transacted? It's a bad deal. We've made a bad deal right. I mean we think that this stuff is free but yet and we've never we've never paid anything to facebook or or Google but at the same time they're the most <hes> successful companies it exists today <hes> but it goes back to the question of what is for sale and it goes back to the question of consent <hes> and what are we consenting to. We're just ticking those user agreements right without even reading bring them. We would never do that with a written contract <hes> but we do this. You know many times a day in order to just make our lives a little bit easier so in a way we're all complicit but in that we are becoming the commodity and we have to ask ask ourselves. How much of ourselves is should be for sale? I think the there's two things that <hes> that <hes> to me how understand this conversation we is one is the word consent I which has never been more debated Beta and redefine than in today's society than now right and currently the relationship with Silicon Valley whereby you know you give up all your privacy as the admission feats that connects and were world is a nonconsensual in short relationship. It is not a relationship where the user fully understand what is happening to them. It is an exploitation of relationship and the sooner we understand that the better the engineers of the future would not have the Valley Ali without the open society and we have to ask them are they committed to building a world that allows for ethics and innovation to work hand in hand or do we just say that you know we have to only have technology and forget ethics ethics. The problem with that in my opinion is that as important as technology has been to innovate and expand our capacity. We've always needed ethics to preserve our humanity. You're taking a look at this specific use case because it's been publicized and we I know about it. What about all the other companies that are trafficking in our data? What about the next election and the companies that are probably selling to campaigns right now? Absolutely twenty twenty s around the corner and both sides of the aisle will be using this technology. I think the movie is really about whether we can have a free and fair election ever again. which I think is important? I think why that's particularly important to us and and maybe why the urgency in the film feels quite sharp is because because we have we come from Egypt we seen that democracy is not some God given right as some people may think in this country democracy is fragile and democracy can be taken just as easily as it's available and and when it when the when the core of the democratic process is under assault it should not be a partisan issue. This should be a rallying cry for people from all sides of the alley and proof of that actually is that privacy is not a partisan issue privacy time and time again has support from both Republican and Democrat lawmakers so I think we are in a moment of new awareness where people are asking more difficult questions as you and there's beginning to a- An accountability movement and I think we as citizens have to now take the opportunity to demand a new social contract but I think that social contract is not going to be between us and the government as it used to be in this era that we live it will be between us the government and the tech platforms creamer John New game. Thanks so much for joining. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you for having us an incredible warning and perhaps the idea for data rights as human rights couldn't come at a more more important time. That's it for us now. Remember you can listen to our podcast at anytime and see us online Allen Poe dot com and you can follow me on instagram and twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London <music>. Are you interested in learning how enterprise scale companies drive organic traffic to increase their online visibility than download the voices of search podcast from the heart of Silicon Valley here research metrics INC's CEO George Cooney does he delivers actionable insights into how to use data to navigate the ever changing landscape of Google Apple Amazon the voices of search podcast arm search engine marketers and business analysts with the latest news.

president United States President Trump China Taliban Afghanistan President Obama America Russia Mr Navarro Christiane facebook President Putin Moscow Washington Christiane Amanpour Julia Yaffe Hussein Hari Sreenivasan Shanghai
Amanpour: John Bruton, Nancy McEldowney and Alastair Mactaggart

Amanpour

57:21 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: John Bruton, Nancy McEldowney and Alastair Mactaggart

"In Turkey charges ahead in northern Syria against US allies president trump's decision to remove troops has caused a revolt in his own base just hello everyone and welcome to almond for. Here's what's coming up is privacy law anything other than the fact that this is a betrayal of our Kurdish allies who have helped us in this very important fight against Isis but it has larger impact vision will allow Isis to rise again the uproar in Washington and among key sectors of trump's base is splintering his own party just as he faces welcome to the program everyone I'm Christiane Amanpour in London smoke is billowing over north have to say I think the decision that trump took in this case is both shocking and shameful this is not how one treats his biggest domestic battle yet impeachment for three decades in the Foreign Service Nancy Michael Downey Sir Republican and Democratic administrations get reveals a disturbing chat he had with Google Engineer Hari Sreenivasan digs into digital privacy with the real estate agent who spearheaded America's toughest awesome for his decision to remove troops from that area to effectively clear the way for Turkey's incursion against those isis fighting Kurds in Syria as Turkey's offensive against American allies enters its second day the death toll is climbing and back in Washington president trump faces a barrage of three Yovany Vich who's expected to testify in the impeachment probe this week Nancy mcelderry Michael Danny Welcome to the program From Washington and going on at least until the presidency of George H W Bush today the Kurds say they feel completely abandoned and top. US military officials worried that trump's is to come to an agreement to have a treaty. The clock is ticking on Brexit with three weeks to go Boris Johnson's last ditch attempt to make who says that he likes the Kurds but he down played the help even though the decisive role and fighting and dying for the allies against Isis is well documented Haitians as well it shows that Americano trump's leadership is an untrustworthy ally the implications throughout the coalition against Isis as well allies people who have fought and died with us in a common mission and I it really you it's nothing you cannot say any thank you very much Christine so let us ask you the key question obviously there's just get your take on what does seem to be just an extraordinary move by the president. The sad story of the Kurdish people is one of repeated betrayal by the United States starting all the way back in the nineteen seventies when Henry Kissinger was secretary of state according to Bulgaria and also as a policy advisor on Europe during the Clinton administration she was a colleague of the ousted US envoy to Ukraine at least eleven thousand Isis fighters in captivity what does it mean practically the implications are horrific with that wide swath of territory that the Turks are now trying to clear out civilians will be displaced there I expect there will be a great deal of loss of life to allow American allies to essentially be at the mercy of their enemies in Turkey I think it's more than extraordinary I other destabilizing the region and potentially opening up Israel to pressure from both Iran and Russia and she basically handing Syria to to Iran Russia and and Assad when you see what the Turkish government is saying and how much they told us last night detained how are they going to be managed and not be enabled to present a threat again this whole situation is extreme it is alarming you know they're clearing a I believe four hundred long sector of the border and twenty kilometers four hundred kilometers long and twenty kilometers deep I do strategy and we shouldn't be doing foreign policy by tweet and this is what you get when you have a single phone call between world leaders occurring and with of civilians as well as of the Kurdish forces but there's a large even more significant threat that this poses their ten thousand isis detainees l. with Ireland we hear from a former Irish Prime Minister John Bruton and said you'd be terrified if you knew about everybody I listen McTaggart around the world are going to be very significant but it's also going to set back our fight against Isis and it has I think a real significant possibility of that means in practical terms for people that they must be millions of people in that area anyway tens of thousands of Isis dependence of different now is that president trump behaves in an radic and impulsive manner taking decisions off the cuff he is all meetings there is no deliberative process and then often what happens we see it now we've seen it many times in the past when he is in discussion with an facilities throughout that region the US has already moved two of the most threatening but that leaves many thousands more how are those people can continue to be is throwing down the gold alert to Europe and the United States he basically said you know Hey European Union come to your senses often almost consistently rejects any deliberative process where people with expertise can come forward and talk about the risks talk about the challenges and retired four-star General Marine General John Allen who used to command our forces in Afghanistan has called the situation complete chaos autocratic strongman leader he finds that irresistible and often ends up agreeing to whatever they ask for this is really scan explain the background of something so that he can take an informed decision he rejects solve that frequently gives it the back of his hand there are no inter agency able to advise the president about what what he might say what you might think presidents have always had conversations with their counterparts around the world what is say that it was chaos and he went on to explain we're just gonNA play the sound bite suggest chaos Christiaan we don't what are the dangers of this leader to leader discussion as as General Allen says with no no system to be he is undermining our national security as well as regional stability oh you mentioned would General John Allen said he said it on on our show he yes no when the put the phone down no further coordination within the US government. I mean you have seen an ambassador you've been a policy advisor you're a career diplomat Dave and I asked him but what were the Turks meant to think in the face of president trump's phone call the tweets the counter tweets and he did of the Air Force that also didn't happen because we've seen the airstrikes led this incursion now on on the back of that also president Ozan is he is also trying to get a foothold trying to strengthen his position in the region overall it as I said at the outset this is both shocking and refugees to you 'cause he's referring to the fact that Turkey does house the biggest number of Syrian refugees and of course is being paid by the Seles this decision that he's taken and then of course you know he did try to walk it back a little bit by threatening to destroy Turkey's economy we my father was a marine my husband sat nuclear alert my brother-in-law was special forces in Vietnam and for military officers and indeed for career ear very significant loss of life as well as diminishment of American national security and that of our of our allies throughout the region and frankly ashamed for the first time in my career it does indeed and I and I have worked with the US military throughout the course of my career in fact I'm from a military family his time in my career I mean that's hard that that's that it takes it takes something bad for an American service person to say two Special Forces on the ground fighting alongside who've been moved out of the way and and this one says to her I am ashamed for the Europe as I mentioned the United States has not had a distinguished relationship with the Kurds over decades and decades at all important would and will likely carry through on because he does not want to be criticized for this move but it is obvious to the world what has happened here trump gave me and doing things like that but clearly it had no impact and in fact the United States said it was going to close the space over that region to deny Turks We saw the ambassador was bought by the White House from testifying last week I certainly hope she is given the opportunity to testify she around there and we're hearing that many officers many commanders are very angry about this move and I quote I very rarely quote special forces have been fighting alongside the wipe the Kurdish forces in this joint effort to to destroy and defeat ICES for the last five years on the due to do that currently but but what about that threat the threat is something that I think actually aired on Sirius Wchs News but I do it because it's a strong media on and media ally of the president that a contributor on Fox News by the name of Jennifer Griffin spokes posted testify but the thing that has rankled so many people about what has happened in this circumstance is that ambassador Ianovich is one of the most scheduled to do so tomorrow we'll have to wait and see whether the White House decides to block her in the same way that it blocked the EU ambassador just moments before he was walk she's received awards ironically on award for promoting anti-corruption after a flawed presidential election in our meeting cold yet another phone call between president trump and yet another leader the president of Ukraine and I want to ask you the bit that you're involved in and that is defending your colleague the former US ambassador now to Ukraine Marie Yovany village who was fired by the president and who was named the the situation at home and of course this Syria decision on the back Hav the controversy the scandal impeachment inquiry now into a from her position but also publicly condemned by the president and his cronies is a real disgrace in terms of how this president tree the green light to go in aired on is going in and cleaning up against the Kurds which he has a long standing animosity toward there are many hundreds of American troops still left in Syria so that continues the policy ended that but I want to ask you about federal service about all of our diplomats who now are operating in an environment of extreme fear inside the State Department fear of retribution but -perienced and respected ambassadors serving in our diplomatic corps today she is someone who is known as being a straight Arrow always worked by the he's in these endless wars and they want to bring the troops back absolutely right but only several have several babs a couple of dozen it'd be moved out of the way in this area the career Federal Service the public servants who have worked so hard for our country but it also says terrible things about the rest of the this is that he was on the phone trying to insist on anti corruption combating corruption in Ukraine and some of them I've covered the Kurds have been betrayed and sold down the river by the United States by the president's by the secretaries of state and now American forces in this transcript in the coal with a President Zilenski she's meant to be testifying first and foremost do you think she will testify happening there at home where you are and also just to point out that the president obviously says what many Americans believe and that is American forces have been engaged for far too long over and I think that there's a certain irony there but also perhaps not a mistake the fact that you'll von Vich has been both removed love but what it looked very clearly like to me is that he was setting up on exchange you look into the Biden's you look Terry a.d and meet with you at the White House for many years the United States agenda in Ukraine has been anti-corruption and that diplomats to talk about a shameful decision from the US president indicates the extent to which we have entered into new I even heard that there's talk about some American ambassador questioning whether they should pursue anticorruption efforts in their countries because they don't know a political novice who used to be a comedian looks to the United States for guidance and advice and this is what he encounters countries professional foreign service officers who swear an oath to uphold the constitution never suffer retaliation for political reasons have you had scandalous and this is not one of those flaps that is going to end in a matter of a few days or a few weeks there will be long standing repercussions and I fee shoe about undermining the political and nonpartisan nature of our diplomatic corps and of our Federal Service across the board I to come onto their agenda and you know when you think about the circumstance of Ukraine it's an occupied country the president is newly elected here's to be have been run by Rudy Giuliani and others to do something I don't know exactly what but to convince the Ukrainians to try due to the Secretary of state well we've certainly not had a reply from Secretary Pompeo or from anyone else in the administration but this letter that was signed early after her return but I have not discussed the situation or any of the details with her you did join with other foreign service professionals in writing I think Secretary Pompeo owes it to all of the people who work in the State Department to address this issue publicly but also to talk about what end to this particular company as well as what happened in the twentieth sixteen election and then I will agree to do other things to include release me and very dangerous territory in terms of our foreign policy our global diplomacy and frankly what's happening here at home what I want to get to undermines the professional ethos and the institutional integrity of this very important place you know in the lobby of the US state well when What I saw and I have no inside knowledge I've only read the transcript as you have we are a non-partisan a political service that works for both Democrat and Republican presidents and suggesting otherwise by over fifty former ambassadors has also been joined by others statements from the American Academy of Diplomacy the American Foreign Service Association and when you when you resign you wrote a essential advice to members of your profession diplomats are in the United States who serve around the world funds from the Secretary of state are you concerned I mean you believe that she's had she's been fired for political reasons do you think that your message now is getting through look I will say this once again if you try to label our current operation as an occupation our job becomes easier we'll just open the doors and send the three point six million league letter in in support to the sector State Mike Bump said we call upon you to follow the procedures and standards of the US Department of State and to ensure that if they'll run afoul of yet another dirty schemes that's being run in their country can we just hit that nail on the head because President Trump's defense my understanding is exactly what you was doing in the course of her duties as ambassador what she ran afoul of was the scheme that out we have a professional ethos which calls upon us to identify and call out illicit immoral or illegal activity GonNa find that this is something that will accrue not only very much to the the destruction of the integrity of the State Department but it will all I and with the laws which prohibit partisan activity you know every federal employee ploy takes an oath to uphold the constitution but also you wrote a letter with you've met with Ambassador von since she's come back have you talked about late I met with her I'm very sad to see now that I was not wrong I besieged my colleagues who remained inside the government to continue to do the no formal grievances and complaints and to become a whistle blower instead of attacking the whistleblower and trying to undercut on on cloak the identity that's the career of an individual politician if Mike Pompeo and Donald trump or suggesting that's what American diplomacy is about now I think they're gone work the essential work not just in the State Department but throughout our federal agencies but to do it in a way that was integral that was consistent with their oath of all and if we cannot get the traction that we need within our agency structures we are then to go to the inspector generals to five there's a plaque of names of people who have died in the line of duty there are hundreds of names on that plaque and not one of them died to advance did the president mean when he said to the Ukrainian president that you von rich was going to go through some things when she came back what kind of reprisal did he have in mind who is governed by statute which says they cannot be involved in any type of partisan activity so yes they do need to speak applies to State Department officials as well so you wrote that in in two thousand seventeen do you still hold by given all the stuff that's happening I told by it and I'll tell you I wrote that in two thousand seventeen after I resigned on principle because I was worried about what might happen I hoped I was wrong at the so undermine the very foundation of what we're doing as a federal service and our democracy so let me ask you then back in two thousand seventeen you you you entitled this article how to work with the president who knows the civil service and your tips included this is very important right now to ensure the safety of this person Nancy Michael Downey former career civil servant and diplomat for the United States thank you very much for joining me and what assurances do we have now when Pompeo is on the record asserting that the phone call was completely appropriate saying this is guys are terrible taking care of their health whether it's a knee injury bad back or something worse guys usually more Dr Erectile dysfunction can be tough to tackle but it's really important to get checked out with Roman it's easy to connect with a doctor just go to get Roman dot com slash what we do in the State Department I can assure you in my thirty years of of professional experience that is not what American diplomats do a of this individual what what people throughout our government should be doing is talking about how courageous that person was and working hard mm trouble Robinson dirt on it than seeing Dr I'm guilty of it myself the same is true for erectile dysfunction studies show seventy percent of guys who experience eighty don't get treated but today a possible chink of light in that darkness the British and Irish Prime Ministers Boris Johnson and Leo Vodka met behind closed doors in Shen all of them speaking out both because they know what a consummate professional ianovich is but also it speaks to a larger tolbert so now we go from that kind of institutional assault in Washington hold the high ground speak up and out don't leak but do blow the whistle I mean there is a whistle blower law and it it two very similar overseas the hard deadline for Brexit is just three weeks away and how that split will actually work is still not settled home you can handle everything online and convenient discreet manner getting started as simple just go to get Roman dot com slash Amanpour and complete an online visit it thankfully Roman created an easy way to chat with a doctor online with Roman you can get medical care for ed if appropriate from the comfort and privacy of your own some kind of movement? I think the big area where there has to be movement is in regards to Customs Boris Johnson was a member of remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash CNN the MLB postseason one pitch what if your doctor decides the treatment would be appropriate they can prescribe genuine medication that can be delivered in discreet packaging right to your door with free shipping guys go talk to the Russian welcome to the program thank you you've heard Leo Vodka and you've heard what he said that there's a possible breakthrough even the opposition parliament the government which agreed in December of two thousand seventeen to negotiating with European Union which said there would be no customs control poor to get a free online visit and free shipping that's get Roman dot com slash I'm on board for a free visit to get started get Roman dot com slash on poor John Bruton is the former t shocked of Ireland which is the prime minister and the former ambassador to the United States and he's joining me now from Dublin doors we don't really know what what they've discussed today but put your experienced hat on where you think there could be seeing dissident IRA having done all sorts of opportunistic violence Over the last several months and what is your fear and being the major sticking point is because of that as we've been talking the boarder idea the border issue that has been resolved since Nineteen Good Friday Agreement that ended the war essentially between between Republicans IRA and the British government what is the threat we already unstitched attempt to make an agreement and the Irish leader then walked away more optimistic than he sounded in the past I think it is possible for us to and deliberately in fact to diverge from a U. standards presumably to gain some sorts of competitive advantage but if that happens the would have to a week ago Boris Johnson came forward with a week ago don't comply with the with Dash really in respect particularly of the costumes controls there's a real problem not enforceable I don't believe I don't believe the European Union we willing to accept that value added tax would be collected properly under the arrangements proposing are and defendants interest by imposing tariffs of the arrangements that are Johnson proposed for the collection of those types so sloppy as to be one swing of the bat and turn to ties told TBS is the home of the two thousand Nineteen National League postseason this on Willoughby tariffs if Britain leaves e you will be tariffs to be imposed on imports from the UK into the European Union If Britain leaves the the terms of peace on your island island if this doesn't work out it's important to say that the Good Friday Agreement was the step between company and lots of things are not in my control the Irish border has of course being the main sticking point for the last three years of the struggle for this divorce Josh and the tariffs would be connected either Jon Gruden did one of the things that I think much of the world can understand about Ireland twenty needs them to fight impeachment I talk to veteran. US Foreign Service officer retired diplomat Nancy Michael Downing plus I think it is possible for US party in your country who said they happy to hear that this megaphone diplomacy is now being replaced by a in-depth discussions behind closed the foundation and that foundation consisted of Britain and Ireland being into single European democracies and there being a common customs code which was agreed also be worried because the integrity of the single marcus dash the proposers as table a couple of weeks ago would be open season for smuggling and peace agreement but without the costumes called being placed and Britain being in a single market there would never have been a good Friday Agreement there would never have been that prospect of peace the larger no-fly zone for smugglers in the northern half of Ireland and those smugglers frequently are involved in of Peace Now of course there are criminal organizations that are active in the border some of them marginally more criminal than terrorists some of the marginally more I am criminal but both of them highly undesirable and the worry about the British proposals is that they would allow much the the you there would be different standards of goods applying in the UK to those that apply in the European Union and Boris Johnson has said that he onto and agreements to have a treaty agreed to the UK to leave the EU inordinately fashion Adopt Upton by the end of October but there's news on the border in Ireland at the Good Friday Agreement which is about convergence rather than divergence would be respected now the proposals that he came forward with one thousand nine hundred seven Good Friday Agreement which you had done so much work in the lead up for that before it was actually signed by successive with Prime Minister Blair the this creation and that's why we've got to preserve the open marcus that is at the part of the foundation of the Good Friday Agreement on part of the foundation L. in political terrorism and indeed they use the receipts from smuggling to finance terrorism and we don't want to create Adam we're worried I think the in one thousand nine hundred ninety two nine hundred ninety two of the Good Friday Agreement Nine thousand nine hundred three single market nine thousand nine hundred ninety eight to nine thousand nine hundred eighty we had the it is have been saying that yes we're just going to cut loose and have a great deal with the United States great trade deal with the United States but I spoke to the speaker of the House also worries both of the issues you've talked about now connected obviously that worries the United States because as as we all know Prime Minister Boris Johnson and all the hardline breaks they are saying because because the Brexit is keep saying that Oh the EU will definitely need to compromise because they don't want a note which people presume came from Boris Johnson's key advisor in Downing Street Dominic Cummings and they seem to be a deliberately targeting Ireland among other other European nations said or this is what this said we will make clear privately and publicly that countries which opposed delay we'll go to the its biggest customer the European Union Mr. Bruton I don't know whether you paid a huge amount of attention but it was a big scandal here these leaks to the spectator it to me it's very hard to pass a trade agreement in Congress very very hard and at one a US UK trade agreement take two Britons disadvantage dot cooperation is has worked very well we'll be disrupted by brexit remember brexit would mean that the European arrest warrant will terms of a new trade deal that's right and obviously trade with the United States is important to the UK but trade with the European Union Oh but if there was to be further vengeance driven lack of cooperation dot would assist the IRA I don't think that's something that with the European Union and if it has not actors in an appropriate fashion in regard to preserving the Good Friday Agreement and keeping an open border in Ireland having the front of the queue for future cooperation cooperation on things both within and outside the EU competence those who support delay will go to the bottom of the a hard border there don't think that you're going to get to the front of the queue I mean that's something that the UK has to reckon with right Northern Ireland part of the customs territory if you care has not actors in good faith in that regard it would find it much much more difficult to make a trade agreement would be a reward for weakening of the Good Friday accords is just not a possibility I mean she's sending Brexit is very very clear message that breath there would cease to be cooperation between the police services north of the border and the police services south of the border in Ireland now that would be great Dan is far more important to the UK then trade with the United States and United Kingdom is going to need to guess an agreement eventually anybody would want to do I mean sometimes I wonder whether you view I mean you I speak to you as not just a former Irish prime minister but also as a former threatened to go to the back of the queue well they understand the Northern Ireland secretary in the UK government was very concerned about that you buy delay he means asking for yet another extension if there's not a proper agreement to non profit deal and you know do did Ireland feel like it was being bleed in the U. Speaking on behalf for the same kind of sentiments that the rest of the e would be saying he'll even worse than we don't want to know deal but we've seen a lot of reporting and I wonder if you can confirm that the U. of actually now that pretty fed up Turkey these are all issues that the European Union needs to get on with and it is being distracted by the continuing in they have factored in Britain will leave they think that even if they if there's another referendum they'll be sort of a rump rex and indeed issued a statement himself saying that that would not happen because he was very worried that what the gentleman that was speaking behalf the minister was suggesting was that and then after that a number of other European countries Belgium and the Netherlands and France I think will suffer a little but most of the European Union a hard a hard brexit or no deal brexit comes into effect the biggest loser loser by a substantial distance will be Britain came prime minister suggests that is what the British people want to vote again but that political system isn't able to give them that choice what the last three years to to prepare themselves for this I guess what I'm trying to ask is is it who's it going to be worse aw this this game of chicken who's going to suffer the most where there have been economic studies that have been done that if when you think that Ireland is banking on a second referendum that will reverse the vote reverse the view of the I know vision in Westminster it's indecision in Westminster government with a majority in Westminster made a deal and it couldn't get it through now I would hope that somehow be either another election or different political situation that would lead to a second referendum and if you're gene union which has been the secrets of our economic success in Europe and ironically something to which Britain contributors intellectually more than any other European Union member the Prime Minister Leo Vodka said amongst other statements today that on no account is a hard border acceptable for Ireland John Bruton thank you. Seven countries will will not be particularly affected by the departure of Britain under is I think as you're suggesting a lot of impatience in the European Union with all the did you know sort of troublemakers for for a long time within the E. U. Brush if Britain does stay their businesses are ramping up and have been working the leave but that's not what we are making our plans on the basis we're making our plans on the basis of the capacity of the UK political system T- Shock Leo Radka said last week the Britain should vote again he basically suggested that on a visit to Sweden he says all the polls since Johnson to make a deal and keeps and to make a deal that protects the interests of the European Union and protects the single markers of the just into action Alison McTaggart a real estate developer in San Francisco spearheaded an initiative which saw California adopt the toughest digital privacy against the tech giant's he sat down with a Hari Sreenivasan to discuss how and why he's fighting for peoples privacy you were behind very much indeed now have you ever stopped to think about how much Google might know about you well this was a question Galvin the galvanize on next are continuing with the process of leaving and a very small number of don't knows and between the two which suggests that if there were referendum remained mice win rather than time that's being taken up with Briggs or when we are so many other problems facing the European Union the completion of the single currency dealing with refugee stir without a majority is coming for the new proposal and

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Amanpour: Ronen Bergman, Dan Meridor, Susan Neiman and Xiuhtezcatl Martinez

Amanpour

58:39 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Ronen Bergman, Dan Meridor, Susan Neiman and Xiuhtezcatl Martinez

"Hello everyone and welcome to I'm on for. Here's what's coming up. They call name king bb but two days after another election. Netanyahu still doesn't have a crown amid rising tensions with Iran. I'm joined by veteran Likud politician in Dan Meridor and the investigative journalist Ronen Bergman then the moral philosopher Susan Neiman on what America can learn from Germany in facing. It's original sin slavery and it's not like we're pretending like we know everything because we were telling politicians to listen to the scientists teenage. Climate activism is shaking. The World World showtimes caught Martinez tells a Hari Sreenivasan what led him to help organize. Tomorrow's Global Climate Strike Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York. The longest serving leader in Israel's history Benjamin Netanyahu is staring into the abyss dubbed dubbed Israel's groundhog day voters went to the polls again this week for the second time in five months and again neither b nor his main rival. Benny Ganz has an outright outright majority indeed Ganz the former military chief and is centrist blue and white party are ahead by just one seat in the Knesset and today President Reuven Rivlin warned of a possible third election urging Netanyahu and Gansta work on forming a government quote as quickly as possible but for the time being both men say hey they should lead the charge something kosher. That's why I'm calling on you Benny. Let's meet today at any time to move this process fold which is more relevant than ever. We have no rights to go with the election. I'm against it the agenda abroad unity government today but I do not therefore blue and white headed by me won the election blue and white is as the largest party according to the data of the Central Elections Committee up until until this time we have thirty three seats and Netanyahu could not and did not succeed in getting a blocking political alliance that he aspired to. I'm I'm for which he dragged all of us to elections so how this is going to shake out. Dan Meridor is a former deputy prime minister and longtime member of Netanyahu's now who's Likud party but he voted blue and white in this election and he's joining me now from Tel Aviv and Ronen Bergman is an investigative journalist who focuses on Iran and other security the issues that have been central to this campaign and he's joining me here in New York. Gentlemen both welcome. If I might start with you Dan Meridor there in Tel Aviv right in the center of where all discounting and and guessing is going on what happens next does in fact be managed to cobble together a coalition or in fact does Benny Ganz. Do they go in together. What is what is next to you think Grieving Christian. I believe two stories. You want you speak of how you form a government. None of these guys have majority it would struggle to have it but the real story the other story which is the most important story for is attempt to stop the criminal investigation against him by using parliamentary immunity he needed the majority in parliament and to give him immunity so that the charges against him which are quite heavy of bribe of corruption will not be pursued this to be was totally illegitimate intimate and in fact these election left him with less support for immunity. So what I think is happening is not the issue of national unity. We all wanted. Most people want it. The question where the man that may go to criminal trial in in a few weeks or so can be part of that agreement or he should I would say I'm defending myself in a court of law and will not stop the process because I know about this issue which people don't speak of but this sued the motivating force behind the tunnels actions well done Meridor. You have been a justice minister. You know very well what all this is about `bout and as you rightly said Prime Minister Faces potential indictment on a variety of corruption charges. So so what are you saying. I mean is see looking into the political abyss. Do you think that that's what is going to come to. When I can't tell the prophet we had to elections since one after the other very never happened in our history to have a third one really is totally unacceptable and I think that it is difficult ebony out to decide I I lost. I cannot continue you. Try to have a plea bargain or something and go home or it just for the wrestling so bill could members in the Knesset who will see that they may lose everything if they don't a go for a national unity government which they can have maybe even maybe maybe even rotation with the blue and white but in Tanya as long as there is a criminal charge. If there is one there's still hearing and attorney general may be convinced but if not not there will be a criminal charge of bribe and and other corruption charges and this is a situation that bb needs is not to be in. I hope we'll have it on his own. It's not the Likud members have to make a choice choice moral choice to defend the prime minister whatever the thing against even against the criminal justice system and is it good for Israel to drag us to another chaotic situation and is it good for the Likud that may be part out of the of the coalition and we left out because of this. This is a major issue. We'll have to see how things play out in the coming weeks. Let me turn to Ronen Bergman with me here in the studio. I wasn't actually expecting damage to bring that up. I as the main issue with this stalemate. That's going on right now. Your your investigative correspondent and you've done a lot of this kind of work. Do you think that that's a do agree with myrtos analysis that that is the one thing. Netanyahu is trying to stave stave off rather than his national security credentials and all the things he normally talks about well most of his career one goal which is which was to stay the prime minister and and now he has two goals to stay the prime minister in order to evade prosecution and we have seen everything that he has done in the last two or three years. I ah again encoding elections few months ago. This was all in order to have the immunity changed alot of immunity or have the the parliament immunity in order to make sure that he's not going to face the charges. We are going to have the hearings not just next week next in two weeks time and these expected resulted up to the attorney general will decide to prosecute him on at least three main charges of corruption bribe in other charges so Netanyahu from his point of view. This was the result of the last election which are a defeat for him. There's no one main victor but he lost. He wanted to enlarge his majority. The coalition the right wing coalition in one or two mandate and he lost five he was not an he's not able to form a government. He's dependent now on. Ben Against his main rival able to form a coalition. He's calling as you show the your audience is calling for unity but what he's trying to do is put the blame on Bennigan's gaunt's for not allowing him to be his partner for boycotting him and calling for a third the election from his point of view. The results are just a mistake and he will go for more and more Komo elections until what he believes the Israeli voter will come to the decision well. Obviously we have to say that. The prime minister firmly denies any of these accusations cassation court however it says it's like a sort of prosecution a left wing conspiracy but to your point go ahead down. Okay let me say the man is innocent until proven guilty no doubt but you can't say this in one minute and the other minute not allow the process to continue and not allow these really positive low but it's true that he took bribes or not it can't be left open it decided and then let me ask you something you are a. Likud Nik you being in that party for a career and yet you withheld your vote this time from bb Netanyahu and you voted for the blue and white centrist party of Benny Ganz and Gary Lapierre. Is this the main reason reason why this is one reason and there's more than this really cool historically the party by its name. It's it's called the National Liberal Movement. This balance of the national caused Jewish national calls which is very important than rebuilding. Our country is very are important in my life in our life but to be only national nationalistic without the human side. Democratic liberal side is very dangerous. The Likud the Party the defended the Supreme Court defended Human Rights Democracy and proud to say that I was missed of justice has initiated the legislation of Human Rights Basie. She close conserve illusion. It's in the spirit of Menachem Begin the great defender of the court we could change. It's not anymore. National Liberal Party's nationalistic unlisted our country would it the Jewish National Causes Michael all my life but democracy human approach others equality is to me very important important and this changed so I could not support it could on top of it on trying to fade the perimeter pulses. There's a constant attack on the in by the Prime Minister and these people on the police on the state attorney. Tell on the court system for being left is being traders. This is very dangerous and is a joke support Likud's. Stop being what it used to be but became sort of right-wing in the best sense of the word right not balanced it used to be done is absolutely right but the pattern not disconnected the Likud is going right extreme-right right because Netanyahu is signing yet not a written contract with the extreme ultra right for some sort over body'll he will annexed he will annex the occupied territories. He will take an extreme right-wing position and policy in return. They will vote for his immunity. This is what he's trying to do. This is why the Likud is taking such extreme lime in the last few years. You know it's really interesting what Dan Meridor you've just been saying because it sounds very very much like what many any in the conservative party the Tory party in Britain of said that Boris Johnson and the levers taking it to a very extreme position against institutions. It's like what many in the the Republican Party here say that under president trump the Republican party is going to a much more extreme wing say against all the sort of institutions that we that we've grown to to understand no conservative positions but let me just put this because I just WanNa get this from Yale appeared who is the coalition Alicia partner in the blue and white party and this is what he said again like you said the Neon who refuses to accept the results of this election trying to drag the country country back into another election which you've just said just listen to what he said. Zillow Tova One person is preventing the formation of a liberal unity government movement faced with the choice between what's important for the country. What's important for one person. The country comes first okay so that's what he's saying. Saying is sort of backing up what you all are saying but listen. I just wanted to get to this because Dan Andro. We are in not just any old moment. This is moment where the whole idea of another war in the Middle East in that region the whole idea of Iran Saudi Arabia the United States Israel. All of this is at stake and I wonder whether you have done so much work on uncovering so much of of this trajectory. What you feel is at stake right now on on that issue so in two thousand twelve as Mark Mazzetti Myself wrote The New York Times magazine last week he was Meta. Benjamin Netanyahu is very close else to order a strike on Iran in an interview he gave us. He said I was just about to do that but I did not have the majority in the government because he needed aided the government approval for to go to war then he changed the law and so only the cabinet need to give him approval to go for an all WHOA CO two him. Any kind of villager offensive can evolve into war that law that was change in two thousand thirteen last week. Apparently is we now learn just before the elections he was about to go to an all out offensive against Hamas the Gaza Strip something that can evolve into according according to his decision only the attorney general stopped him what we learned from that is that his continuous policy not to risk himself for going for offensive against Hamas in Gaza because it's bad for elections because bad against his against pro is not good for his popularity. Maybe change and I think now maybe Netanyahu believed absolutely not to be reelected. He needs a war which puts us in a very risky position right now he might know us any kind of friction in the border to call for some military offensive and I think the military should be very very cautious in what is happening the coming few weeks and then he put it to both of you. Dan Meridor and Ronen Bergman because as I say this is not being spoken about in the abstract the United States is trying to figure out. Should it do anything in response to what they believe was the Iranian missile missile attack on Saudi oil facilities last week. This is what president trump has said latest on this issue of retaliation. We'll see what happens. I mean you may have some very strong hit. Where the strongest military in the world by far a lot of things could happen if we can have a peaceful solution. That's good. It's possible that that won't happen but there's never been a stronger country militarily not even close Dan Meridor in Tel Aviv. What do you make of that. What so you think sitting there is going to transpire in terms of any kind of military reaction to what happened in Saudi Arabia well not in a position to give advice to president trump and he doesn't listen to me on advices and America America will or will not go to war as the president decides not me but I think that the Iran issue is of great importance because you're on these destabilizing the region try to be nuclear and uses proxies against most Arab countries and Israel of course and uses. This legitimacy of Israel is should not exist repeatedly so of course they are sworn enemy but what do you do with that on one hand will needs to be very tough with Iran Iran but on the other hand from a position of strength the need to find solutions. Iran is a strong country four thousand years realization. Could there can be the way out by talking is a good question president trump showed his decision by running out walking artem the agreement. I agreement wasn't that good but was dead. What did your trinity. It's not clear to me see. The trump wants to meet through honey. I'm not seeing being the Iranians allowing it so far so I'm not clear about the president's ideas of what he does with Iran but in the Middle East is is eh many countries in mainly Arab countries who look at the United States and asked them says we'll America stand against Iran. If you're on Texas or not good question. I don't want to answer it but going back for a minute. Netanyahu Ronin said rightly Natanyahu saying head no majority see for striking Iran. Maybe one of those people in that small group in the cabinet who were involved this was me who was of course against this and and I hope that even now nobody will think of going to war election. I think this is far fish. I don't think we'll do that. I very much hope this is not the case as on on the racial. It's a long term issue and the positional strength will need to reach in the end in agreement and by which you run will really stop. It's a race for nuclear capability worrying agreement. It was changing the way or or walk away from that. You run stops. The stabilizing the region can be an agreement. I would if I were to advise the president alongside being toughened. Maybe using force needs to go. Oh for some sort of negotiations it not end the different way. Okay negotiation. Ronin seems further away than ever the president has said I want to meet with the president of your no conditions but then this all started and said no we're not going to meet on they want sanctions lifted playing hard to get yes and seeming to be in a position to play hard to get. Do you agree or are they playing with file seems it seems that the US president is very keen to strike he is. I understand he wants to be re-elected as Prime Minister Netanyahu and he believes maybe unlike Prime Minister Netanyahu that war is bad for elections and the situation makes aches this project on what is happening in Israel in two thousand and twelve there was an American President Barack Obama who pressured Benjamin Netanyahu heart not to strike nowadays nowadays it seems that the president trump might endorse quietly an Israeli strike over Iran and out of your reporting. I thought was fascinating eighteen was he you said part of the motivation for the Obama Administration to get this nuclear deal was to prevent was to preempt any notion that Israel would strike you on the way Benjamin Netanyahu reached exactly the opposite of what he was trying to be pressured he said I'm going to strike. Iran if you President Obama would not do that and instead President Obama started negotiation for the reaching the deal that Prime Minister Netanyahu object so much but nowadays is very different president at the Oval Level Office and if Prime Minister Netanyahu finds right decision of Ri- ri- reason to strike around. I'm not sure that he's there to stop in a word and I think I know what Dan Meridor things because he just said it but in a word do you believe pulling out of the JCP. Oh the Iran nuclear deal has made America's position less clear more dangerous. I I don't understand what is the American position on one hand. You have the twelve points off secretary of State Pompeo which is basically the end of the Iranian Revolution in and on the other you have a president trump who's extremely keen to have a meeting with Ruhani and have a deal so I don't understand what America is going to think. Prime Prime Minister Netanyahu has in that the leverage to act and this is very very dangerous place. Can I switch gears back to the kingmaking politics in Israel. Dan Meridor. I'm so much has been talked about obviously Avocado Lieberman and his seats and where he might place them he has broken with Benjamin. Netanyahu was once his sort of mental What do you think is going to happen because I believe him and there's no sort of bleeding heart liberal and yet he is secular and many of his positions appeal to liberals although in the past he's positions very anti-palestinian very hard line have been very divisive. Where where do you see every door Lieberman coming down now were to tell you the truth. I never could guess he would do what he has done and I can tell tell you what he will do the future so it's quite surprised. I have to say but it was the successor surprised for him. He grew numbers the Knesset. He seems to be a clear about not long. Tony'll to return to power so it looks but we'll see when as pass. I don't think he is he will let you go back to his perennial alliance. The question is what is it that he wants on the Palestinian issue in the Iranian issue through on the peace with the Arabs and the Israeli Arabs is a good question he was very adamant and using very harsh language against he's really Arab citizens which I hated and I said publicly and the was very skeptical about the peace attempts. He might have changed their to maybe with age. Some wisdom got into him. I can't tell you he's now a major player but in the end there's only one one person called Netanyahu who will have to make a choice quite soon because the clock is ticking on the criminal thing will you will you step down with some way a respectable way or not and if not means the Likud numbers not deliver people will have to decide whether they go with him all the way to more election one or two or three free or do they tell him. Thank you serve you serve as well but now it's over. This is the main question to me now. Rana laws which you but of course well you know. Netanyahu came out as the voting was going on begging people to vote. I served you well now. Please come out and put me back into power right and when you you see the actual results you see that his voters came to vote followed his advice and yet Arabs came more herbs came to vote and he changed the balance and other the things happen. I think that his party is not going to fire him. They are not going to rebel against him and I don't think that Benjamin Netanyahu would follow dance advice and Dan you know sign some sort of a deal with attorney general saying I'm going to step down off the stage of politics in return for full immunity from prosecution. The only thing that could happen in our two of two scenarios one is that Lieberman decided he will go for a coalition with the air parties that will re this will make sure that Netanyahu GNO cannot form a coalition Bennigan's the prime minister but this this needs to have a new Lieberman and by the way that's a big deal because the parties have up until now not been and significant players never never been out of the coalition. Maybe and I hope that they will do or we're going for the election. which is a disaster for Israel? There is so much more to talk about including Netanyahu's you know having threatened to annex parts of the West Bank. We'll see what you can before his base in order to get the same immunity that we have discussed we will keep an eye on this and hopefully have you back. Ronen Bergman here New York with me Dan Meridor in Tel Aviv. Thank you so much for joining me this. The guys are terrible taking care of their health. 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Dr Just go to get Roman dot com slash on on poor to get a free online visit and free shipping. That's get Roman dot com slash Amman poor for a free visit to get started. GET ROMAN DOT com slash on poor. Martha Stewart wants to give you three free meals for your own in-home taste test. That's right Martha's meal Kit Delivery Service. Martha and Marley spoon is giving away three full assize meals to be part of Martha's free atom taste test visit Marley spoon dot com slash. CNN forget about awful frozen food and unhealthy fast food. Martha Martha wants you to enjoy three of her best thirty minute meals for free go to Marley spoon dot com slash. CNN that's Marley spoon dot com slash C. N. N. gene. Finding a new job is a lot of work. What if you had your own personal recruiter to help you find a better job now. ZIPRECRUITER's technology can do that for you just download VIP recruiter APP. Let us know what kind of job you're interested in and it put your profile in front of employers if an employer likes your profile Ziprecruiter. Let's you know so if you're interested in the job you can apply listeners should download the free number one rated ziprecruiter job search app today and let the power of technology work for you so much of Israel's identity is of course tied to the Holocaust perpetuated by Nazi Germany an even as the fall right there once again rears its head as does antisemitism. It is remarkable to take stock of how far Germany has come in atoning for sins ends. It's a lesson that my next guest says could and should be learned right here. In America this year marks four centuries since sixteen thousand nine hundred when the first Africans came as slaves to these shores and despite a civil war this country has never had a serious truth and reconciliation effort Susan Susan Newman is a moral philosopher and author of learning from the Germans race and the memory of evil and she's joining me now from Berlin Susan Neiman German. Welcome to the program and you know it's really interesting to have you on the program today particularly in view of the conversation we've just had about the stakes in Israel you actually spent a long in in Tel Aviv just before we go to the heart of your book. Tell me what sort of connection what connective tissues is there in terms of your thesis on reparations and restitution and what's happening in Israel right now. Oh Lord that's such a large question. I I mean a very short version would be that aw I think Israel the politics would be much better if the Holocaust weren't used in the center of so many political arguments mints on the other hand. I do use the Israeli case when I talk about the paying of reparations for the Holocaust as a model for what other countries to to do so. Let's talk about that model because you detail it extraordinarily in in your new book. What is it that you think the United States AIDS specifically not in big picture but in small step by step picture that leads to a conclusion can learn from Germany in the Post Post Nazi age. I mean I guess the world things that Germany after the defeat suddenly became reconciled and suddenly you know no outlawed all of this you know awful awful politics that that led to Nazism that's exactly right and I think the three basic things we can learn from the Germans and the first one perhaps most important is how very hard ages to confront your nations crimes. There will always be pushed back. There were always be people who come up with arguments like well. Other people were just does bad Let's look to the future and not dig up these old bones and as you rightly said the Nazi period it has come to serve for much of the rest of the world as such a symbol of absolute evil. It's kind of a black hole because we tend to look the Nazi period from the very end. We don't look at the beginning you know there were six and a half years in which the Nazis were in power before they even started the war much less started with genocide but because it serves us now we only focus on this end point we tend to assume the minute the war was over. They got on their knees and begged pardon and tried to atone and the really shocking looking thing is that they didn't when I first came to Berlin in one thousand nine hundred eighty two. I had friends who would tell me with a great deal of shame that their parents were Nazis. They wouldn't say my parents were Nazis and they thought they were the world's worst victims but that is very much what the view was in West Germany. Each east Germany was somewhat different and I think there's a little bit of hope in there for those people lund you're absolutely right the way the four hundredth anniversary of slavery is being commemorated in the states is very much an example of a fairly broad sweep of Americans trying to come to terms with slavery and the Neo Slavery aretha followed it not simply as an unfortunate little blip on our history but quite a central part of it and of course there's been gigantic pushback. Newt Gingrich criticized the New York Times for this sixteen nineteen project and plenty of less prominent people find it appalling. I think once we you realize that even the Nazis or the former Nazis founded appalling that other the Germans would attempt to face the guilt attempt to atone for it pay reparations. I think once we realize there's going to be that pushback back. We're much better able to deal with it Susan. let's just talk about the things you will. Let's it's in a second but I just want to break it up with a few questions in that you know you said. Oh I think I think you either recall what your friends in Germany and he said I mean basically there are no to the question where the monuments to Nazism there are no monuments to Nazism. There was no such thing whatever was there it was razed to the ground and in fact there are monuments to the victims which we see in many many places in Germany and you've pointed out the contrast trust to the United States. There are still these monuments and memorials for instance to the confederacy. Give us talk us through that point absolutely and let me just clarify when I say there are no it's correct to say no monuments to the Nazis some Nazis what's his sites have been turned into what the Germans Call Dank Ma which is not quite monument I mean can you translate as monument but it's a place where people will need to think so there are such exhibits at something. Nazi sites but with one one very strange exception which I only found out about quite late last year and it's very abstract. It's just it's in a in a quite distant place. as very abstract is just to the war dead there would be inconceivable to you know the plantations that we have with women in. Hoop skirts I tried to imagine Agean you know somehow there being something comparable with women in dirndls and long pigtails and it really is unimaginable. Even Vinh are of far right party which is unfortunate wouldn't propose that what we have instead is a variety of monuments from concentration some training camps with museums that have been very carefully and thoughtfully prepared to various kinds of statues remembering the victims uh-huh remembering the few resistance heroes that there were and particularly interesting monument which is all over Germany there. It's called the stumbling stones and they're these little brass plaques about four inches square which an artist Damn Nick has is placed in front of houses in which Jews lived and from which they were deported and murdered and each stone has the name of a single single-person and the date of their deportation and death. If it's known Bryan Stevenson the creator of the wonderful lynching memorial in Montgomery Gumri told me that he was deeply influenced by those stumbling stones in particular and the way in which they change change the iconography of well of the city and indeed of the country and he hopes that his lynching memorial will not just stay stay in Montgomery but that different counties where people were murdered will common take pieces of the memorial so so instead of a south that is simply full of you know every two miles you see another plaque to some confederate battle or another that we will also side by side. Remember what else happened. I I should just say to interject this for a second I I. I spent half a year when I was researching this book in Mississippi in the deep south. This is not to say that I believe American. Racism is confined to the deep mm south it's simply by any means whatsoever. It's simply that because the south is conscious of its history of often very full Paul sway it serves as a magnifying glass by which you can look at American history more closely. Susan I want to play this sound bite from an interview I did with then with the Mayor of New Orleans Mitch Landrieu and he was talking after he had taken down four confederate hedrick statues in that particular era at that time we can talk right but let's just play this sound bite and what he the reasons he did this. Another friend asked me to consider these four monuments from the perspective of an African American mother a father trying to explain to their fifth grade daughter. Why Robert Liberty League sat on top of our city can you can you you can you look into the eyes of this young girl and convince her that Robert e Lee is to encourage her. Do you think that she feels. Dell's inspired and hopeful by that story. Do these monuments help Percy her future with limitless potential. Have you ever thought have you you ever thought that if her potential is limited yours and my potential limitless potential as well well. I did interview about it but that clearly was from a press conference. He was talking about that in abroad in abroad arena but look you have kind of personal connection to the struggles in the south. You were raised. I believe we live for a long time in Atlanta. Your mother was campaigning for the desegregation of public schools. Tell me just reflect act on what Landry you did in New Orleans what's happening or not happening and what should precisely America learn from the reparations and the the and the and the outlawing of hate crimes in the like in in Germany what should happen to you know the African Americans the descendants of slaves who came here now how four hundred years ago so let me say a word about the clip with Mayor Landreau admired the speech that he made when the statues were removed and I even quoted in my book the argument that he was just quoted using using is I think an important argument but by no means the strongest one people often say we need to take down confederate statues is because they cause pain to African Americans and that's certainly true but I think even more important is the things that we choose to memorialize in stone or brass reflect our values. We don't simply memorialize every single piece of of our history. you know we choose particular men and women who represent ideals that we we would like as a nation to have in that we'd like our children to have so in that sense. I think it's not only important for African American girl to not not have to walk by a statue of Robert E Lee. I think it's just as important for a white American boy not to think that's the paradigm so so to your next question. Yes I was born in Atlanta Georgia shortly. After the Supreme Court decided round versus board of Ed my parents were from Chicago and we were Jewish which really did kind of make us outsiders. you know certainly lien was a different kind of childhood than I would have had in New York but I'm not sorry about it. although at the time I certainly felt like an outsider and I suppose the thing that I'm most grateful for is that I did grow up in the middle of the civil rights movement. My mother took a a stand which the rabbi of the reform synagogue also took but unfortunately not very many people Jewish community or other white people took a quick was to openly campaign and work for peaceful desegregation of the schools for which we occasionally got threats from the Ku Klux Klan on but again I grew up thinking at quite a young age we're on the right side of history and moreover. It's unfortunately become a somewhat old fashioned view in the Jewish community but it is what I was brought up with. because Jews were a minority community who are often oppressed. We ought to show solidarity with other oppressed communities and you know if we read from the. H- gotTa every year that we were slaves in the land of Egypt then we ought to be on the side of people who were slaves in the land of Georgia and not just simply how I grew up. I'm Susan finally and we just have a short time left but I just want to ask you because you know despite right what Germany has achieved. There is a resurgence of the far-right. The alternative for Deutschland has made big gains in parliament. There antisemitism is on the arise. Even in the United States antisemitism is on the rise. We've talked about racism or that's continue continues you know. Is there a moment now that you see e where there's a real concern about how this is going to play out in the future that lessons haven't been learned or is that also silver lining and so many people responding and reacting to this resurgence of these hate hate filled ideologies. Thank you for bringing that up because because so many people don't pay attention to that part of the story I had a friend from Los Angeles right to me frantically hundred no a couple of months wants ago the story about a an Israeli wearing keep on Berlin being attacked by Arab got a lot of press and he wrote to me. Are you in the the children all right and I had to say you know. I'm sorry in what country were Jews murdered this past year unfortunately it was the United States of America that is there is a rise in anti-semitism all over the world. I think it's a concern concern. There's a rise in racism all over the world but in Germany what gets far less international play is how quick the reaction is. I mean the funny thing is not only did three thousand berliners immediately demonstrate. The Not terribly left leaning. It's it's more center. Rightish newspaper. A had a huge headline Berlin wears a key PA and they had a little keep that that you can cut out of the newspaper where it we do worry about the rise of our right wing party but I think that the the process Germany has gone through in the last thirty five to forty years has made us less less vulnerable and more aware of the dangers of that kind of radical right position than any of our neighbors in Europe and that is the good news I wish we I'm so sorry I wish we had so much longer because this is really important but thank you so much for this insight and it is important to actually focus focus on what you just said that there is a resistance to this kind of hate Susan Neiman. Thank you very much indeed when we turn now to the global climate Emmett crisis Friday is shaping up to be the biggest day of protests ever inspired by the Swedish schoolgirl Greta Thunberg millions of young people across the world. I plan to come out on strike from school. Shoot Tests Got Martinez is one of the young organizers of Friday strike and he's joining fun verb and other youth activists in Washington Washington. DC for the demonstrations. He's been protesting since he was six years old and coming from indigenous. Mexican descent shoot has cut believes protecting NIA is his spiritual duty. Hari Sreenivasan asked him why people are finally getting up and taking action shoot. Just tell me I what is the climate strike. When are these strikes happening. What's planned so September. Twentieth is going to be a combination where eh we're going to see millions of young people in the streets organizing from hundreds if not thousands of cities around the globe. I think this represents a moment a history everywhere. The climate crisis is more present than it has ever been both in many political spheres in the global conversation in the consciousness of the people and I think the younger generation is very reflective of this dire sense of urgency and the climate strikes were sparked by this brilliant ongoing. They got somebody from Sweden. She's been striking outside of parliament Sweden for you know almost a year now I believe so she headed down and kind of started that initiative on her own out in Sweden and now his mobile momentum for millions of people worldwide to join her in these efforts March fifteenth was the first global climate strike to happen APP in where there was one point six million people that walked out of school into the streets to demand boulder climate action to demand participation their parts keep fossil fuels in the ground to meaningfully implement just transitions away from fossil fuels reverse the climate crisis and so now every single day this issue is getting more and more important more and more urgent we have less and less time time is so I think this momentum that we are seeing especially now that the public schools has excused absences on that day for students we are going to see a massive grounds while on like we've ever seen before four of youth mobilizing industries using our voices to really show the world that this is the most important issue of our time. How you GonNa make the grownups take you seriously christly. I understand the the visuals the action itself all of these young people out on the streets. How do you translate that into action by the people who hold the levers offers of power. Who haven't done enough for decades? Definitely I think public pressure is an absolutely critical piece of pushing the political. Hello worldwide you see increase in in governments in politicians really understanding that this is one of the most it's the defining issue truly my generation represents you know the the younger generation from eighteen to thirty we represent the largest voting block in the United States you know so so we have pressure that we can put on politicians where we're not gonNA vote anybody that doesn't have a solid planet platform at the worldwide as well with these strikes there symbolic uh of this shift that our culture needs to be making swords holding politicians accountable and holding elected officials accountable for us. It's not like we're pretending like we know everything because we were Italian. Politicians listen to the scientists to listen to the scientists that have been telling us for decades that this is something that we need to be paying attention to immediately and acting upon immediately and I've been doing this since I was six years old in the game for like twelve years I came to talk to you today about how sacred the earth is so so for us to be stepping into not only the streets but also taking action on our courts so in the federal government and the United States address in the United Nations taking this into schools a building independent action in communities worldwide like this strike again. This is one I think landmark event that symbolizes the global momentum of young people's will to overcome overcome the stagnant energy that political power has failed to create the change. We know it's possible difference between this climate strike is we are calling on the adults worldwide to strike with us. The energy and the call and ask is for adults to stand up with their youth. It's a walk out of their jobs to walk out of their work into join us in the streets and put that pressure on government and then we got to follow that up with the actions in our communities with the way that we're voting and so on so does there is there kind of a voter registration drive arrive component to this as you head into twenty twenty if you want to back candidates that are that prioritizes climate. Yes Fars ars voting goes. That's definitely on the agenda of myself and the organization I represent her. Guardians and no variety of various different groups within the climate space are also going to putting it as an energy and said that that's not so much a specific ask because it's such a global movement. These strikes are such a global movement so it's not just US centric since honestly the largest turnout that we're seeing any ways is a Europe but I think there's New York flagship event because it's his like come out to the states because there's is going to be so much momentum and energy and performing artists people pulling up is going to be a thing having much more serious implications than than just asking people to vote I think a a global with space of across the planet people unifying in this leg concerted call. Is there a specific list of sort of demands that you'd like like to see resolved. In having these actions for us is like the first step is putting pressure on politicians is putting the pressure on on people that are going to be making the decisions on our behalf in really showing on the streets in making this cry like we are not going to stand idly by while future is is kind of determined by people who are brave enough to take the steps that are absolutely necessary for us to determine the future in a positive light because things are really terrifying right now. We're seeing projections of everything. From six trillion trillion dollars of damages from climate disruption in the next years to a billion people being displaced to completely changing the global political landscape. Things are going to shift a lot. It's like it is very foolish to think that the world is going to look like it is in ten years similar to how it does today and it's all to us like this. All hanging in the balance is all on the accident that we'd say the way we live our lives policies that we push and if we can do it quick enough because there are people that are already suffering every day that are losing their homes and island nations in the South Pacific with homes and burning in the Amazon from Fascist governments down there. We are seeing massive amounts of destruction in pain already so we look at our selves as this generation who has a lot of power. We have technology. You know we have the right to vote. many of these young people do in like what are we. GonNa do about it these politicians in office. What are you gonNA do about it. You you know this is about more than just what your platform is built off the talking points in your script but this is about the action the we are demanding to be demonstrated otherwise it. It'll be too late you. You said you started this when you were six. You're fighting fracking at eleven at fourteen. You're already addressing the UN. How did you get into this. How did did you maintain this kind of enthusiasm and why was. Why were you so passionate about this at a young age so my says my people are the the Michigan people of Michigan posted land? What's his Mexico today for us. As an intern this people was to protect our land. Our water to firefox future for our community are people with that is like inherent within our existence. We say like our existence is resistance you know and so it is second can natured to defend what we love to fill we care about it is our responsibility to our ancestors of that fought to defy defend those same things it has a responsibility to the next generations so for me. Gwen up in my Culture Sam ony with these teachings at a very young age beginning to learn about the climate crisis became very apparent that this is the fight of my lifetime time and it is there's no choice about it's not about being an activist. It's about fulfilling. Responsibility is the generation that is alive on Earth today and how about your parents were were. They involved in this too yeah. Momma Momma started Earth Guardians which is the organization that works with hundreds of thousands of youth worldwide working with them so engaging community action various levels. She started that in one thousand nine hundred way before I was born in definitely grew up in an movement in the streets you know my older siblings involved. My Dad was traveling speaking at the United Nations representing Mickey Cohen Environment Spotty and cultures as my blood pressure. I asked that partly because one of the critiques Has Been Look Look. These children are being manipulated by the adults. They don't understand these topics that they're they're being used as puppets in this large game right but from what you're talking about to me. This is something that you feel passionately about on. Your own is pretty full. This dollars going to say Oh this kid on what they talking about and immune related by the parents then listening then I listened to us. We have personal investment of this. We have stories of how you've already been affected. We have a burning passion within the same way that a K. wants sees injustice at any level whether it's in our community or bullying being in our scores and we know that's not right. It doesn't take a degree or or any amount of years on earth. No what is right what is wrong and for us like we we see the future is in danger. We see that our president is in danger. We'd see that our planet is in danger and we see this interconnectedness that we have with with all life on earth for much. The generation like this is terrifying. This is depressing this creates apathy in stress and disconnection and like US numbing ourselves from all these problems albums. I it is not easy to be alive in the world today to be young person in the world today 'cause we carry a lot of weight and we're holding that you know in so for parents and not only in adults to not only create responsible largely for creating this crisis but also telling us that our investment in building solutions that generation was too afraid to do is coming from a place of manipulation from our parents. That's just like if they get like either. Get on our side and get out of the way as this come with costs. I mean as you become more vocal. Oh cool as you've grown in this movement. He made enemies. Yeah I mean I was getting death. Threats from the fossil fuel industry when I was like eleven years old eleven autozone and my little brother who is like nine ten in death threats from the fossil fuel industry people trying to set up shady meetings lots of things have happened in my life where it's been very apparent that being this vocal and standing out and sang stuff that many people are afraid to say many adult afraid to say let alone other kids. We are building more power our so that we're not alone in this and there's so many leaders but there's definitely been times in my life. I've been afraid because of the target. This work is putting back. How do you know it was from the fossil fuel industry. I I was doing a bunch of work. In Two thousand ten eleven twelve specifically around natural gas extraction resisting that in our community doing a lot of education in a lot of conservative communities in schools where there was a lot of parents and people that worked in industry in going pretty much teaching them in in giving them the truth about this like horribly extractive industry that was destroying our communities health our air water around that time there was all kinds of different things that we're coming. Indirectly from people within the industry people disguise themselves as like people to work for my school trying to meet up with me and like as yeah it was. There's all kinds of stuff. That happened like my my mom was like you know a lot of it but yeah it was definitely an intense time because we were making a lot of noise in that space specifically getting a lot of like yeah really really shaken up in Colorado for water. You are part of the lawsuit against the US government tells about that yeah so myself and twenty youth filed a lawsuit two thousand the fifteen against the federal government demanding action sue directly adjust to climate crisis our claim was the the federal the government has has violated our constitutional rights to life liberty and property for their failure to address the climate crisis adequately for knowing about this crisis for the last fifty plus years and not only doing nothing but working directly with the industries that are perpetuating this crisis so this try this case on his way to trial has gone on through many obstacles in ill leaps and bounds and initially filed against the Obama Administration pass on out of the trump administration we have seen gene massive. I guess waves in ways. People never thought was possible with this case everything from legal and political analysts looking at thinking that it was a domed. We're here for four five years later. and we're still going through the court. System and various judges have ruled in our favor instead of these young people have standing and have the have the actual constitutional right to unlivable climate the sustains human life so different the different rulings have really been Dan Revolutionary ways that we haven't seen before hundred thing young people not just taken to the streets but really using the justice system leveraging political power in in these spaces is what gives generation edge that is different than different approaches to you know environmentalism in the past and is a very exciting place to Warren and now we're kind of a little bit in the waiting period on trial in the Ninth Circuit Court and excited excited to see where this goes it has a lot of potential will wear demanding demanding is for comprehensive prescription for a comprehensive clamor recovery plan to be implemented across the nation to reverse the climate crisis and and get us back down to a safe level of greenhouse gas emissions in the atmosphere and his big in this revolutionary and it's sweeping and that's the kind of work there's going to be needed. Environmental movements have been fueled by youth for decades. Why do you think this moment is different. I think Galati these ideologies of where environmentalism lies and how it's defined has actually separated in the people and has been very narrow Arrow I think in its in its approach and its tactics and hasn't really reached a mainstream audience and the way that needs to because place at the planet is that there's just never been been in greater urgency to act at every level from politicians to corporations to individuals listen now I think as the crisis has gotten bigger and bigger these walls that separate these different movements in this different work begins following and we realize that it's not just about activists and politicians and people that work in the UN. It's this is about entrepreneurs and visionaries. Artists Design is teachers parents. You know workers like we all have a place within this. This movement movement generation gets that more than other people and with a lot I believe with the last generation that's really going to have the opportunity to sway the future in a positive light shootout. Martinez good luck to you. Thank you and we must all hope he's right and that this generation does have a lasting impact when it comes to climate a change but that's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from Neil.

Prime Minister Netanyahu Israel United States prime minister Dan Meridor Likud party Iran president Ronen Bergman America Germany Tel Aviv Knesset Deutschland attorney Benny Ganz New York Susan Susan Newman Christiane Amanpour Hari Sreenivasan
Amanpour: Karen Armstrong, Brendan Simms and Sukhinder Singh Cassidy

Amanpour

56:48 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Karen Armstrong, Brendan Simms and Sukhinder Singh Cassidy

"Once you've made your big discovery next you have to prove it works in our second episode of Engineering now title. Reading scripture is very light reading the Libretto of an opera you'll missing scripture then so it's a trauma him on that's what drives his quest era of nationalism I speak with your Brendan Simms and Hari Sreenivasan sits down with the president of Stubhub Shchukin to sink cassidy welcome to the program. Everyone estimates that the number of Americans who identify as Christians has declined by twelve percentage Yvonne Jellicoe movement and its role in politics to the rise of militant groups like eleven when she was able to do what few others would or could that is explain about her amazing life story and how she's traveled from religious none to secular after nine eleven because you were there to interpret essentially Islam was the only person really that the wall sort of gravitated towards to understand it was scholars Galore the problem with some scholars is that they can't make things and they weren't able to say just people grassroot woman explaining a religion that is highly patriarchal for a start on a Christian I what made you sit up and take notice of that religion festival of my visit to the my met both Judaism and Islam and I began to explore those religions my own traditions differently so and then at the time of the Rushdie crush it was also worried about the fact that the greater the good here in this country novelist in the nineteen thirty s we can't afford this and so I wrote because many of them are Westernized so they have the same kind of questions because I find it fascinating that you came to Islam with your visit to the middle being the way it's distorted religion in the way it's used religion as a tool who's the tradition to counter that but all our traditions are floored because we are violence issues and our scriptures reflect us we are the only the mass and so the scriptures reflect us then in your new book the lost the Lost Art of scripture and this comes after two thousand nine all the major religions for instance one of the quotes from from the book you write militant atheists terrorism religious scientists quote proof tech's to assert their claim to the holy over the text for whatever I guess political gains but then there are also those it quoted so often by by Islamist but also by critics of do these these verses like slay them where wherever you find them for example these it didn't bother they did they said they are not worth considering they are no longer relevant they of Christ and the Mongols from the East who took it's obviously not the same and we always have to say this you can't create a moral or factual oh really appalling issues so jeff sessions who was then Attorney General Jeff You to the Apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans processes are good in themselves consistent fair the time but you got a lot of Christians upset actually because in United States what do you think when when all religions use these he's a very much almost an anarchist he does not believe in government Christ is coming back very very soon so just stay quiet for why what is lost and what's the art well it is telling you something very profound about the human condition and helping us to live in formative art it was always sung or recited the Koran means recitation using a lot of it secondly scripture was not attempting developed modern archaeology and developed our knowledge of ancient family or Catholic obviously that you wanted to become a nun and you write oh but for them religion meant Sunday morning mass and a decent morality they explain to your parents and why do you think you chose that raw it's a complicated thing you're he has been prescribed by modern patriarchy rather than the book and this Catholic with it and in a sense I wanted to extricate myself from that because all the women that I could league for but I expected it to make me because I wouldn't be here today it's put me on a certain part it certainly Sion's in Buddhism but now you write that they've been taken all the scriptures say is that you must lose self I actually I had to let my ego anybody any harm but when the Buddha devised this for his monks the whole uh-huh through your heart and mind in the course of a single minute and you should let exercise so but we don't want to let our egos go we want up getting into heaven and avoiding hell or polishing it's not about ensuring its survival in heaven in optimum conditions forever James how to the ground it's a sign of to you talk about how television presenters often presenting some of the most maybe distressing giving them the chance to close their eyes or switch to another channel less wound existence. Well obviously I find that very relevant and I don't like warning people that they not just about me they all tell you again Chinese Eco Justice the Prophets of Israel had no time for people who said after the poor visited those sacred imprison the Koran is simply a cry for we see such inequity in our world at the moment in London here twenty Super Canterbury crying out against this injustice now in the homes and wonderful riches now we advertise the everybody and the Chinese and the Indian particularly from the very beginning insisted unease people who now call themselves the new confusions philosophers have studied change so it's really interesting because that's just finished back in the United States where you say you have. Denial has come from the religious right from the evangelist calls now yes they've done this puts it pretty much above everything else not to mention the moral issues that comfort they're central heating their oil there caused their airplane and similarly there's also but also worrying there was dancing in the street and now there's cheer was cheering at the forty eight percent and again the scriptures speak out against this this is not a popular message and I think it may be a sign facts that are staring us in the face of the scriptures do speak to us and they do every multifarious to cocoon us in our little work in thank you once you've zip mouse dot com slash empowering innovation to watch the episode now versus Chris Jericho for the ad w world championship we turn now to a historian of Dhaka period of our PAS no less into a thorough Teheran leaders the question is not academic Brendan Simms of Leader Professors Welcome to the program Hello so wars and some awareness because you are writing about this dastardly figure in history why did you think now is the time to revisit this figure well is central to his thinking and I think that international capitalism is a worldview which was something exercised by the fact that the German Rice German empire couldn't feed his population world war and I quote an incident which has not been spotted by any of his biographies before Edmonds Germany the German immigrants or the sons of German emigrants and so these people we've exported have we won't need to export our population so you're of Anglo American capitalism even more than what history is generally assigned but he saw communism as an instrument that international capitalism us the powers of international top by which meant both Jews and non Jews so people like the German Reich and therefore you know subjugation in the first world war have distorted worldview very paranoid that the whole sort of victim there are salient as they were when he set out to provide his peculiarly destructive and demented onces nine twenty or thirty years it promote the notion that the Jews ago was much less current or the idea that faceless international topless against international capitalism is rhetoric can find today everywhere what we're let's just go we saw this past Sunday an election in which yet again the AFDC the FAW calls of CD you and he'd the leader Hawker Beyond Hawker give us the significance of him AFDC continued presence in a significant national powers. The Germany is not free that Germany is run by outside from construe as anti war for instance the Holocaust memorial in Berlin as here's said is absolutely so that's that's that's way out there at that is completely coming as part of the of General World View which is embedded within a part of an interview that I had with Angela Merkel when I spoke to her about the threat to Germany see Mites amongst US unfortunately is to this day not a single synagogue as we have not been able to deal with satisfactorily that we can do without this raped and you know you've said Hitler's long shadow is therefore still with us and we'll have this effort has not just directed to people like those in further to the rise who anti Semitic that they've you know they they find other phrases for example means that a lot of intellectual work has to take to combat and to show its roots allowed him to become so successful in perpetrating his message and his evil deeds vindication was testifying lately on Capitol Hill he is the army colonel the process of cast aspersions on vinnie credibility by saying Nick Antisemitic tropes right does that concern you that this is even happening you ah but also of course in this country particularly on the side of the Labor Party where you have find it right and left and what Jose together is this sense of hostility the book of a colleague or fellow writer Peter Long rich both of you have written these new longbridge it can also be simply that a person has the ability to use years of this rise of nationalism within Western democracies as well as elsewhere because we've kept people you know uncovered and unprotected while a small elite is to lead them out of that tell me how Hitler did that and then we'll get onto today's well it's an her amazing of a small party German Workers Party and then he takes over is to keep all the different wings of the party more or less in line with what some difficult consensually that's the reaction to the defeat of one thousand nine hundred and that everything that's gone wrong in to vote for him on that basis but he never gets beyond the antechamber of power calculation of conservative elites around President Hindenburg who think they can use her cabinets which initially doesn't dominate but which then takes over on the PRISMA for good or for bad and they use technology incredibly carefully like radio it was there you go and it was specifically designed to not sense so for instance he used airplane to move between eighty didn't succeed and the folks are certainly had a strong propaganda British and American people have radios just like they should have cars so I think the propoganda around us right now do you see a parallel or a you he's there are parallels but but I think they're more superficial that's what you would expect to find ooh pattern but very potent patterns of thought of conspiracy in person would use these facts on the ground these historical moments to benefit but don't have evil intentions and don't panda just to people's that Hitler would come to power and be this effective November nineteen thirty two he lost few million votes in the two Reichstag Elections when he could have done it it's possible had there been another election free and election under free circumstances he might well have lost even more votes and then we wouldn't be having this conversation in wall you see these former Soviet states Warsaw Chrissy as the vehicle in fact yes I think a real opportunity all political union of mainland Europe because what we now have is L. nationalist fears very often on issues of migration where the European Union has to have some kind of mechanism to redistribute them but

Brendan Simms Germany Hari Sreenivasan president Hawker Beyond Hawker Chris Jericho Yvonne Jellicoe Teheran cassidy United States Prophets of Israel Dhaka Edmonds FAW London Berlin forty eight percent thirty years
Amanpour: David Wallace-Wells, James Spader, and Jason Rezaian

Amanpour

56:39 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: David Wallace-Wells, James Spader, and Jason Rezaian

"Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Xeni offers thousands of affordable. Eyewear styles starting at just six ninety five. No ridiculous markups. No hassles. Just quality affordable. I wear delivered right to you visits. Any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. Hello, everyone and welcome to import. He is what's coming up. Terrifying. Wildfires catastrophic flooding polluted air the science of climate change is beyond refute, but is fear. Now. The only thing that can save us journalist. David Wallace wells on why it is time to panic then shouldn't judges at least pretend to be impartial star of hit crime drama the blacklist Hollywood actor James spader talks to off. Hurry Srinivasa and more than five hundred days in one of the most notorious prisons in the world. Journalists Jason resign on his brutal detention in Tehran. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Most of the world has signed onto this fact climate change is an existential threat to us civilization on earth and humankind is responsible for it. The science is irrefutable. The average temperature on earth keeps on rising towards two degrees celsius above pre industrial levels. And that is what scientists and policymakers say is the upper limit of what livable but already natural disasters amounting and intensifying in its first ever study of the plants animals and micro organisms. The sustain our food supply. The United Nations is warning that this crucial biodiversity is declining due to our activity and our pollution public awareness and acceptance of the science is shifting even in the United States. That's the good news. The bad news is that it's not happening fast enough. Nations are not enacting their climate pledges rigorously enough and crucially in this age of communication, the need to make haste and change is not being heard loudly enough. Young people though seem to get it. They are organizing school walkouts Parlamento from citizens and they're making public demands to the powerful their message. It is time now to panic. I don't want you to be hopeful. I want you to panic. I wanted to feel the fear. I feel every day. And then I want you to act I want you to act as you would in a crisis. I wanted to act as the house was on fire. Now, Greta Thunberg is the young Swedish activist whose launched this global youth movement. And my next guest agrees. We should behave as if the house is on fire. David WADA's wells is a journalist and the author of the uninhabitable earth. He told me that as the planet gets warmer in catastrophic ways harnessing fear, maybe the only way now to save ourselves. David Wallace wells, welcome to the program. Thanks. It's great to be here. So look. Panicked seems to be the operating motivational system of the day. We've just had Greta ton Burg. We've heard what she said. And now, you are essentially saying the same thing in a much larger and bigger more scientific way. Is it time to be terrified isn't time to embrace the nightmare and fix it. I think the science says that the future is going to be quite terrifying. Even if we move very aggressively on climate, and so I almost don't think it's a rhetorical question is just a matter of responding to the science as it comes out where at one about one point one degrees of warming right now. It's almost certain that we will be unable to avoid two degrees of warming at that point many of the ice sheets of the world will begin irreversible melt, and we'll see as many as two hundred million climate refugees. That's the UN estimate. Not mine. Two hundred million. We're on track to hit four degrees of warming by the end of the century. And if we get there we're talking about six hundred trillion dollars in global climate. Images. That's double all the wealth that exists in the world today twice as much war impacts on agriculture on the economy, which could be twenty percent smaller than it would be without climate change or possibly even smaller than that. So we're heading into some unprecedented climate an unprecedented climate, and we have not really begun to think about the way that that will affect how we live on this planet. Okay. So you've just given us these figures and for many people, it's quite sort of. They don't understand what does one point five degrees me. Well, does two degrees mean nobody quite understands the scope of that. So currently where are we at one point five? A little below the one point one about and it's going to get considerably worse from year. If we end up at four degrees by the end of the century, California. Wildfires will burn sixty four times as much land as they did this past year when they build more than burn more than a million acres. That's just one figure, but everywhere you look every aspect of life will be touched by this forced well, David in a way, it's already happening. We've seen the twenty th century be the century of these massive wildfires. The talking about these massive and intensifying, natural disasters storms, flooding and the others. And we're already seeing climate migration as well. As other conflicts and refugees. We're already seeing politics changing what we're not seeing is a tipping point of politics, and the political will to deal with this issue. And I wonder whether we can talk about that. And I I'm going to play a little bit of a sound bite from an interview I did with the UN chief negotiator. Just after this great achievement that they believe they they'd scored at the Paris climate conference. The agreement is not perfect, but what is in life. But I think that what is really really important is that the direction has been set loud and clear, we're not going just for two degrees. We're actually moving in the direction of one point five and that will take several decades to get us onto that path. But a long time we are going to be measuring ourselves. We are going to be having verification moments in time where we will be able to transparently no for cells in for the world, whether we're actually moving in the right direction, the very very powerful signal, however to capital markets, and to and to research into -nology to all the technology company that technology world is this is a new era of renewable energy. And that is what is going to get us to the safe return. Temperatures. So what are you say that first of all that was in the in the in the height of the foreign moment of all the countries of the world signing onto the climate Paris accords in the interim we understand that despite their pledges. They have not all by any stretch of the imagination implemented their their promises and their pledges. So is that optimism outdated or can we still achieve what she's talking about? I don't think that there's any practical path to staying below two degrees celsius through what's called conventional decarbonisation that means replacing dirty energy with clean energy. I think the are you in. I would say to do that we need some significant use of what's called negative emissions technologies, which are ways of sucking carbon out of the atmosphere rather than just reducing how much we're putting into the atmosphere, and there are promising. There has been promising progress on this technologies. But unfortunately, there it's been tested only, very small scale and a kind of laboratory setting and we have. Haven't done any of the large scale testing to know, whether we could really deploy this technology in a in a way that would allow us to get underneath to degrees. Now, two degrees. Keep in mind is what most of the world's climate scientists call at the threshold of catastrophe, many of the world's island nations have described it as genocide, and I think it's almost certain that we get to there. There is a paper that sticks in my mind very vividly from about a year and a half ago that suggested the impact on public health from air pollution alone, just between the one point five degree threshold and a two threshold would be a total of one hundred fifty three million additional deaths. That's the scale of suffering of twenty five holocausts, and we're almost certain to get there when we talk about this coming century and the way the climate change will transform it. These are the scale of transformations that I'm talking about. It's it's it's completely catastrophic and I would say unprecedented in all of human history. That said I think we will figure out a way to live in this world. And it's impor-. For everyone to keep in mind that hang on a second. What does that mean? We'll figure out a way to live in this world. If it's as catastrophic. As we all believe the science to tell us we live in a world today that has an enormous amount of suffering nine million people die annually already from air pollution, and that's a horror. It's immoral abomination. But you, and I still live the way that we do with that knowledge. And I think there will be forms of compartmentalization denial that take hold down the road. But I also think that more action and engagement on this issue will lead to policy changes that can help us avert many of the worst-case scenarios that are possible. And I do see encouraging movement on that front. I mean, there's the movement in green energy, and how much more Ford -able that's become over the last decade or so happening much faster than even its advocates predicted. But the movement in public opinion has been really dramatic too. In the US now over seventy percent of Americans believe climate change is real and happening over seventy percent of us believe it's concerning. Those numbers are up fifteen percents since just two thousand fifteen and they're up eight percents since March. And when you look at the green new deal you. See the impact that that's having on our politics in the US when you look at what's happening in Europe with Greta Tonsberg and the climate strike extinction rebellion in the UK. I do think that our politics are beginning to move in this direction. But I think the thing that will really exceleron that movement is a batch of new economic research just from the last few years it used to be the case that economic convention conventional wisdom held that action on climate was really expensive. It would mean forgoing some significant amount of economic growth, but the turns out that that logic is actually reversed that taking fast action on decarbonisation will save us enormous amounts of money. In fact, create a lot of wealth. One major study from last year said that fast decarbonisation could add twenty six trillion dollars to the economy, the global cone by just twenty thirty those those payoffs are very very fast, and I think once that information sort of filters up into the world view of our policymakers globally. I do think there'll be a significant reorientation in their perspective. On this issue because I do think that the perceived cost of action on climate has been one reason why the world has been right. So slow down. And as you say, we have really failed those Paris commitments. And I do think policy action will come. The question is just how much and how fast I spoke to the American while she's Canadian she's worked for the United States. The American climate scientists Doke to Catherine. Hey, hope she's a committed Christian. She was part of drafting the recent US climate report, which was catastrophic actually talking about the economic impact and all the other impacts to the US if we didn't get to grips with this. And she was very interesting in how she views the subject, and how she thinks it should be communicated to people just take a listen when we talk about climate action, we're presented with two opposing apocalyptic, visions one where climate change continues unchecked which could mean the end of civilization as we know it not the end of the planet. The planet will be fine. But the end of civilization because our civilization is built on the assumption of a stable climate. And then on the other side, we have this apocalyptic vision of well, we have to throw away everything that makes our current lives, so comfortable, no electricity. No water. No cars nothing. So we're faced with these two opposing visions of the future. And no wonder people are more afraid of of the one where we throw away all our modern technology versus the one where climate impacts affect us. But the reality is neither of those has to happen. We need a positive vision of the future where we do continue to have abundant energy for all not just us here in developed countries, but people in every country around the world, but that energy comes from clean sources that don't pollute our air or water and will never run out on us. So I mean, she really raises some interesting points. And I mean, just as an example when we talk about poll numbers and public opinion. I think it's the state of Washington where they are convinced. Of humans responsibility for this climate disaster. The we're living through, but they did not vote for a carbon tax. They voted it down. Know, I think there are problems with the carbon tax approach in general, most of the economists who study at now say that those taxes would have to be so high that they approached an effective ban. The UN report from last October suggested that a functional carbon tax would have to be as high as fifty five hundred dollars a tonne in order to really help us get below two degrees. I don't think there's an existing carbon tax in the world. That's above twenty dollars, a tonne and all of the places where it's in place. Those countries have their emissions still growing. So I see much more reason for hope in the kind of investments that are detailed. Why shouldn't say detailed, but it proposed in say the green new deal and we've seen those kinds of investments pay off very quickly. Green energy is now much much cheaper. As I mentioned earlier than even its proponents would have predicted ten years ago, and in many parts of the world cheaper than any dirty energy sources, which gets to appoint the doctor Heyhoe just made we can now hope that as China continues to develop as India developed, a sub Saharan Africa develops that those. Paths of development will be much much greener than the pass that were taken in previous decades in previous centuries by nations in their economic position. And that's really really key. I think as Americans even as British citizens members of the EU people sort of expected this story is really really driven by the lifestyle and behavior of the modern west, and while countries like the US, and the UK are responsible for the lion's share of historical emissions. The going forward. The story will be written almost entirely by China to a lesser extent. India and to third degree how sub Saharan Africa develops and the how those countries developed whether their diets Admiral meet whether they continue to burn more coal, whether they invest more aggressively in green energy, these are the major questions of of the next few decades. American emissions are already falling. They're up last year. But generally speaking, they're heading down same with the countries of the EU. And while those countries have kind of Marla. Obligation to be climate leaders going forward from a practical perspective, the fate of the planet will be written by the energy trajectories of the developing world. What does the current administration's? Lack of awareness of humankind's polluting activities mean, well, I think it's a horrible stumble. It's an embarrassment, and it's apartment from a position of moral leadership on this issue. And I wish that we had an administration that was pushing things more strongly, and I hope that shortly. We will. I think that in the big picture on the role that America and the rest of Europe can play is by signaling that prosperity is possible while still being green that we don't need to sacrifice the comforts of modern affluent life in order to have a more responsible relationship to the planet. And I think actually in much of the EU. This is already the case if the average American was confined to just the carbon footprint of the average European American emissions would fall by something like a third, and I don't think we think of say the average citizen of Spain or Italy as being crippled by economic limitations that are put in place by by carbon restrictions. I do think China's already at about twenty nine percent of global emissions and that doesn't account for all of the infrastructure. They're building across Africa and Asia, which is quite possibly add up to even more than what they're doing in China itself. And I think going forward that share is only going to grow. And so I think Donald Trump is a much less important figure then Xi Jinping. The US isn't about fifteen percent of global emissions and is like lit a fog going forward. So when we're thinking about the future of the planet in a weird way a lot of it hangs on this one man, the leader of China. His authoritarian opportunities to take action on this. And we'll see how that shakes out again. It's it's certainly not a perfect record. There are many reasons to be skeptical of that rhetoric, but China is certainly positioned itself. Over the last few years much more aggressively than they had been in the years prior made much bigger green investments and actually taking a real focus on air pollution, which was killing into dozen thirteen as many as a million Chinese died from air pollution alone. They focused on that very clearly one of the interesting, and I think frustrating perhaps to the scientific community, and all of us factors is how over the decades has been this small band of deniers that has seemed to have dominated the sphere to the extent that the scientists James Hansen who was. One of the first to raise the alarm has written himself about scientific reticence. And you write about that a lot in the book. Tell me how you discovered that scientists themselves climate scientists even sort of censored themselves yet for a long time. They believed that the public would respond to more measured cautious rhetoric, and so they were reluctant to share their more the scarier side of their research with the public that's been revised bit in the past few years or anything major change in the approach of scientists to this issue came last October with it IPCC report, which really signaled this is the time to act urgently if we don't take action aggressively the world will be utterly transformed. And what I try to write about in. My book is exactly what that will mean for the way that you and I go about our lives going forward. I do think that there has been a kind of a change in the perspective on this issue. Not just among scientists. But among the public, and I'm I'm somebody who thinks. That's progress. Well, I like that you've ended on that optimistic note. I'm not being scientific reticent here. You've been raising the alarm, we're all raising the alarm, David Wallace wells also of the uninhabitable. Thank you very much. Indeed. Thank you. Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Our friends at Zanny optical offer, a huge variety of high quality stylish frames and state of the art optics starting at just six ninety five. You can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home at Xeni dot com. With the latest trends in eyewear available in hundreds of frame styles and materials there isn't a better way to change it up for every season. Plus, there's any offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit Xeni today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. That's Z E N N, I dot com slash CNN. I'm Biagio Messina. And I'm joke VIN soon. We are the producers behind HSEN television documentary series unmasking killer. Join us as we explore the identification capture and arrest of Joseph James, Di Angelo the alleged Golden State killer in a special ten part podcast series unmasking killer, all new episodes premiering Tuesday. February twelfth subscribed today at apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash CNN. Now, we're going to turn to an actor who's played some eccentric characters in his time. James spader revels in the offbeat like the award winning cult hit of its time. Sex lies and videotape and also mainstream blockbusters like the avengers. He currently stars in. A political thriller called the blacklist as one of the FBI's most wanted fugitives turned informant. This series has bagged him to Golden Globe nominations, and the show has gathered a huge global following a hurry screen of us and spoke to the Hollywood star just recently. So for our viewers who have not watched the show. What's the blacklist about in the first episode a man who was on the FBI's most wanted list gives himself up to a director of the FBI? They take him into custody. He's been wanted in many different countries, and so forth and considered armed and dangerous. And he said that he was. Wants to make a deal with the FBI informant of sorts. He is steering them towards people that they've never heard of. And that they aren't even aware are out there in this season. There's a pretty significant plot twist and that his kind of immunity is compromised. He brought to Justice or in the process of being brought to Justice. We have a clip let's take a look officer Baldwin through some identification, and I gave him a false. I d so magnificent, even I started to believe my name is George Murphy. He said, I looked around nervously the truth is I made fun of the man, I refuse to give him the respect. He somehow believed. He deserved. It happens. I get impatient. I make a comment I might regret. It's one of my biggest issues in therapy along with some residual anxiety from childhood on a sexual fascination. I'd prefer to discuss in chambers. That's sorta quintessentially him. I mean, there's a certain reverence to everything he does. It doesn't matter that this sort of life is on the line in this case, he's still jokes. He's very confident is that easier to play over five season six seasons that you get to know a character a little bit better. I was looking for something that was very fluid in terms of town. So I was successful. I think in finding that in that this is a show that is at in at different by turns very very emotional. Very funny. Very intense. Sometimes. Disturbing startling. End. Sometimes a lot of those things all at the same time. And I wanted to character who I would still after a period of time if the show continued to run a character that was enigmatic enough to me that I would still be surprised by him over time. And I'd still be curious about him over time. I remember when I first read. The very first episode. The pilots. By the end of the story by the end of the story, you knew less about him than you knew the beginning, really anything. You learn about him just poses more questions. And so I knew that this is a character that would have a certain amount of staying power for me at least in terms of curiosity. Are you surprised that it's doing so? Well, I mean, everybody hopes that the project that they're working on succeeds. Here you are average of seven million plus people watching six seasons into it. I responded to the material and responded to this character and. That's all I have as a gauge really is what my opinion of it is. And I was intrigued by this sort of marriage between a sort of mythology sort of serialized. Sort of mythology to the show a married with the procedural. But I have no idea. I mean, I really have never been very good at that part of this business. I I'm pretty selfish in terms of my reasons for taking things, and they really it rarely has anything to do with what a what a response by maybe from a from for others our from others. But what does it have to do with it really has to do with my interest in in the material in the world that that the story lives in if it's something that I'm interested in exploring then I'll do it this year. You've also in episodes had storylines that have talked about what is the meaning of truth internet is influencing so many things conspiracy theories. I mean, these are topics that America is challenged with right now, I'm assuming this is an intentional act. From the writer yourself. I mean, listen, there's no question that you know, one's life seeps in and the world around us in a show is a sponge to a certain degree in terms of that. But it's interesting that there's a big storyline. That's going on right now. And on the show that. Riders were working on long before it became a news item. And the same thing would happen on a another show that I worked with for a long time. Boston legal where we really weren't ripping from the headlines and yet again, and again, I'd get a script and we'd be working on something. And it became by the time it aired. It was timely. Given the worked at the practice. Boston legal do shows with multiple hit seasons. Do they get better over time? Because I've heard from some people that the first couple of seasons are really where everybody's just got their nose to the grindstone third season's fourth. Now. The money starting to roll in changes the dynamic a little bit. There are a lot of things that can be deciding factors in terms of how something changes and develops over time. Now, for instance, the practice I came in on the last season. I think it was the eighth season of that show. And I was brought in because six cast members had been let go and what had happened was the the show had been on. It was in its eight season. The ratings. I don't think the ratings were as strong as they might have been in the past and the shogun picked up by the network for another season, and they had had their licensing fee cut in half. So David Kelly felt he couldn't make the show the quality. So he had a choice. You could either continue with the show at a much reduced licensing fee in which case he'd have to fire people or he could end the show and by that time by an eight season. The amount of people who are making their living on television show is enormous and he decided to keep those people employed for another year. And so he fired six actors and by met with him. And he said I'd like to have you come in and be on the show, and he basically was burning this house down that he'd belt. And that's what that character was doing little sinister then halfway through the season, the network came and said wow about another series with this same character in. Oh. And you got to spin off. Yeah. So all of a sudden I did Boston legal. But here you had I was brought in as a destructive force on the practice. Now, how do you construct a series around a just a around the cat in the hat, which is what David conceived? Ebony thought of that character. Even the slightest idea of lamb. Supposed to recount home points in my life leading up to this moment. And just hope that it's concurrent that it makes sense to you against sense to me. I was there. I don't know the slightest idea of why I'm supposed to be able to explain it to you. And why not you tell me? Why? Why do I explain myself to you? When I look back at these characters. Clearly, it's someone who doesn't like himself in some ways at least, according to some of the other characters in this show blacklist recently, there has been a shrink that kind of looks at your deepest darkest corners and says, you know, your fear is that you're an impostor you go all the way back to Steph a horrible character back in pretty in pink. And the other characters are telling you that it's really your yourself loathing is some of the stuff that's driving. You. Getting this conversation going, you know, if you want your little piece of low grade, fine, take it. But if you do you're not going to have a friend that right? Yeah. That's right. Are you drawn to this sort of thing? I don't believe that to be the case, you're good at it. I just don't know if that's really what it is. That's driving. I don't know. Whether that really what was what was driving Alan shore. And I'm not convinced. That's would dry is driving reading too. I don't know how much merit. I give to that. Okay. You look for conflict in characters because I do. Yeah. I do is they're they're more fun to play. Yes. It is that that is still the most compelling aspect of the character and blacklist is that is the dichotomy that I find in the conflict that I find in him all the time. And by the way, I was very spoiled. And that you know, and I listen to a certain creates design. I mean, that's all. Also, what I found most compelling about that kind of other kinds that we're talking about Alan shore is it is the dichotomy and and this man, Raymond reading ten who is so ruthless and brutal at times who is incredibly vulnerable, and thoughtful and has such an understanding for the quality of life and the beauty of life and the value of life, and what would be the thing that would teach him that and give him such an incredible appreciation for life. Is that he's so familiar with the loss of life? All those years spent. Worrying about you. Fancy myself. Your guardian angel. She was taking on Monday. You known you'd be fine. And he's so familiar with the taking of life. And I think that has given him a very keen sensibility for the cost of a loss of life. You know, that's a strange thing to play. But somebody who has completely come to terms with the end of his life at some point. And yet Philly present fully present and fearless. In a way. I think is comfort with his own mortality is probably gives them. Great confidence. No matter what the hell's on the other side of a door that he might be walking through. So I've read that your detail oriented to a point of obsessive compulsive is that accurate. I think I'm in a job that is that's conducive to that disorder. If wanted for lack of a better term, it's oh, I've only had it been helpful for me as an actor having. Compulsion towards attention to detail or a compulsive attention to detail. Are you still learning as an actor? Yeah. What are you learning? Now that you maybe didn't figure out the same crap. I was learning at the very beginning. Sometimes it's as simple as to slow down a little bit. And sometimes it's as simple is speeding up a little bit. Sometimes the best direction in the world is do it quicker or do it slower, or you know, what I mean, this is where you came to find your future in acting you what did you drop out of high school? I did. Not future and acting. I really have to find a future. New York has always Representative very very very important part of my life. It was a place that I left home to move to you opted into this. This is what I wanted. I I loved the city, and I still do I still I'm really one of those people who I don't really need to leave New York. Like I love to travel, right? I do love to travel, and I know there are people that oh, well, you know, the city's only bearable if you can get the hell out of it. I don't agree with that. I love the city to live in. I'm one I really truly believe that New York is the most wonderful place on earth to live a terrible place to visit. It's actually much better for living. You can actually live very calm and relaxed life year because you don't feel like you have to fit everything in you come here and visit and it's like you're exhausted by it, and therefore people perceive the city as an exhausting place to be. And I don't find it that way, I find a calm in the center of this gay ause James spader. Thanks so much. Thank you from that Hollywood fiction to a real life story of prison, psychological. Torture life and death that all began one summer morning in two thousand fourteen for an American journalist in Tehran Jason resign and his wife was swept up in a police raid. They had no idea why resign had been working as the city bureau chief for the Washington Post when suddenly he found himself hold from his home and jailed on trumped up charges of espionage. And he was built to way for five hundred forty four days one and a half years in the country's infamous avian prison. But perhaps he was lucky as his freedom was in pod to the extrordinary diplomatic efforts around the Iran nuclear deal, and he was released in two thousand sixteen there are still Americans and other jewel nationals held hostage in Iran. But relate. Between the United States and Iran much worse now and Jason is recounting his grim experience in his book prisoner. He told me some of the chilling details of life as a captive in Tehran. There is resign. Welcome to the program. Christiaan? Thanks so much for having me on. So, you know, your book has a dramatic title prisoner. How difficult wasn't too right? Well, it went in spurts. I wrote the the outcome of what happened to us and the first months of freedom, which is at the end of the book. I because it was so hard for me to kind of get myself back into that mindset of of being in prison. Not that it wasn't accessible for me. But that it was pretty painful and triggering set off all sorts of nightmares. So it was it was a hard process. It took me a while to do. But I would get myself into into. Frame of mind where I myself back into those experiences for several weeks at a time. And then I need a break. And that's that's how I did it. So let us sort of take your take our cue from you. Then and start a little bit. At the beginning. The poignancy of this many many levels of poignancy, but one that this book is an Anthony bourdain imprint our late friend, our late colleague and the person who use sort of guided around Iran when he came to do a program parts on Nome, and he interviewed you and Yagan your wife in that program. And at the time, you sort of only just recently been there and you quite optimistic and it was just before you arrest. I believe he was some six weeks before you were arrested. Here's a little clip from that documentary. I love I hate it. But it's it's become home. Are you optimistic about? The future. Yeah. Especially if this nuclear do, finally happens view. Very much. Actually, I mean, I wonder how you feel seeing that that that's so long ago now and so much water has gone onto the bridge including five hundred and forty four days of yourself being imprisoned. Can you remember that moment when you up to mystic about a future living in Iran? I can and sadly it was violently stripped from from Yogi, and I very quickly several weeks after we taped that, but I have been living there in Iran and working for several years, and I had seen the lows of two thousand nine two thousand ten the effects of sanctions on the people of that country. And also that that spring of hope that happened in two thousand and thirteen in the feeling that that a nuclear deal with with the rest of the world and a lifting of American and international sanctions would lead to a better day for Iranians. It's something that was ingrained in my mind, and my heart at the time, I could I could feel it was palpable. But it's as you say very much in the past now, and actually, you know, you do describe yourself a little bit, and we'll get into it later as a little bit of a pawn in the political game around the Iran nuclear deal, but we'll get to that in the second. You described the traumas of what you went through as a prisoner. And you also say that you tried to hide that from your family. Tell me how what we going through the you didn't want them to know about look when you are thrust into such an isolated situation. Your mind goes to very dark places. I was scared. I was depressed. I was very angry. But when my my mother, and my wife were given intermittent access to visit with me, I could not. In good conscience. Make them feel any worse than they already did while I did push them to do whatever they could to raise the awareness around my plight. Raise the awareness around my case at the same time. I tried to infuse a little bit of laughter and and gentle sensitivity into each one of those meetings. Because I I was doing everything I could to hold onto my dignity and to my humanity. And not bring my family any further down than than everybody already. Was can. I just ask you what kind of humor you able to bring to this process even on visiting hours. Well, look Christiane you've spent a lot of time in Iran over the years, and you've dealt with with Iran authorities, and you know, that that they don't have the most developed sense of how the rest of the world works. So there was a lot of absurdity in the questions that they that they asked me and the accusations that they were making against me, it was deadly serious in the sense that they controlled my destiny, but there were funny moments, and I latched onto those. With as much kind of grip as I could because you know, laughing through a situation is is sometimes the only way to survive it. And I I I don't think it's weird. It's just how I've always operated. Well, I'm gonna get some of those details in a moment. But I you know, you talked about your mom and your wife coming to visit. You your mother Mary an American. You'll father's Iranian. You are Iranian American and you in American citizen living in the United States. Now, you'll mom came on this show, and she pleaded for your release. She looked directly into the camera unspoken therapies in Tehran about you. This is what she said Jason not ten hop has Saturday as he's a man has bellied, pigs Saturday Iran has. Could Madari me to make a book on keg? Passat ish Zendani Basha. Has Sarah moon, raw Asad Khan. I mean, it's actually quite emotional watching it back. It's it's making me emotional right now. I'm so proud of how my mom handle that situation. My big brother, obviously. And my wife is well each one of them went through so many struggles around trying to free me, and my mom, not only did she, you know, come on your show and many others to express those concerns and demand my release. She came to Tehran. You know, she's married into an Iranian family. She'd spent a lot of time in Iran over the years, but in this very tumultuous and scary situation. She came and still stuck or foot down and said, I'm not leaving until until my boy comes out, and I'll be forever grateful for them. Yeah. And there was no messing with your mom. No messing with Mary. And she she tried to get into the court. And I mean, it was really painful for her because she was kept in the dog for a long long time. And of course, they charge you with espionage. But we all know that those trumped-up charges. What was it like describe? You know, you having to defend yourself on the hours and hours of interrogation and your prison cell in these endless trips to the kangaroo court. If I could say that he was subjected to you, you'll you interrogators threatened to dismember you. I mean, they were really very violent in their words in initial days and weeks the succeed in breaking you down in a way that you feel nothing more than as if you're scared animal awaiting another beating. It's it's the humanizing in every way, but as time dragged on and the case and the awareness around my case kind of picked up momentum. I begin to feel bit of strengthened confidence. Not only in the fact that I knew that I was innocent. But also that the that the assertions that they were making about me, we're not ones that the rest of the world was going to really buy into. So it made it very much easier for me to stand up for myself, especially when I was outside of the prison walls. I mean, you talk about that kangaroo court. It's the revolutionary court of these logic Republicans Iran, it's going to very serious name, and the consequences are often very serious, but the process that takes place in there can't be taken seriously. It's so farcical and ridiculous. There's no evidence you're not able to defend yourself. You know, you're you're being taped for the purpose probably of of propaganda state media propaganda purposes, that I just thought to myself here, I am I I've been I've been going through this for so long the the wind in some ways. Although there are four big very towering walls around me. The wind is at my back because the world is with me. How did you know that because they kept telling you that the world had forgotten about you didn't care about you? And you talk about the absurdity of the charges this I want you to tell me the so-called avocado story. So in the in the opening weeks and months, they were very adamant about the fact that nobody cared, and nobody was lifting a finger. Nobody was making any noise about me and in the confines of solitary confinement. You have no way of knowing whether or not that's true. Obviously was not true one of the first accusations. They made against me was that a a failed Kickstarter project. The, you know, the crowd funding website that I had put up in two thousand ten with aspiration of bringing the avocado plant to Iran a country where you can grow almost anything. But oddly enough didn't have the avocado is give the people to write to their glauca moly. This became the biggest charge against me. This was definitive proof that I had a secret spy mission. They wasn't. They weren't sure what it was. But it was code for something. And it was nefarious. It was one of the many things that they accuse me of the obviously didn't hold any water, but as time dragged on and and I was taken out of solitary. I had access to Iranian state television for a large part of the the final months of my my my detention. I could see the case that they were trying to make me against me in the Iranian public's eye. And I understood that that was just a response to all of the support that I was getting outside in the rest of the world. So we talked about Anthony bourdain we talked about my my family, but there were other people too. I mean Muhammad Ali one of the last things that he did in life was was was put out a statement calling from my relief. Well, let me read it. Let me read it Jason. Because I must say I was just amazed to see this in two thousand fifteen he said, I'm sorry that I cannot be physically present to lend my support in person. But I pray that my words will provide relief to the essence to secure the release of Jason resign in Shah. It is my great hope that the government and judiciary of Iran will end the prolonged detention of journalists Jason resigned. I mean, it is extraordinarily and that must have carried some weight. He's a famous Muslim. Exactly, I mean in America, we think of him. As an American hero in Iran and other Muslim countries, he's a Muslim hero. And you know, he matters. And his words matter I I was treated differently. I was looked at differently by my guards and the authorities in Iran were very angry about that. They wrote articles in some of the, you know, the the most hardline newspapers that, you know, this great hero had been duped into supporting this spy, and you know, they were losing a battle of public opinion at every turn. And how could I? With the little knowledge about what was going on. Not have my my shoulders lifted just a little bit higher knowing that that Mohammed Ali and many other prominent people were publicly demanding that I'd be simple. Yes. I mean, I think that is an amazing moment. But but how did your relationship with your interrogators change first of all did they physically abuse? You fortunately Christiane I was I was able to avoid being physically harmed. I think that I talk about torture, and psychological, torture is a very real thing that I experienced in the my wife experienced, and it's a legacy that will live with us forever. But we were spared from being physically attacked over time. I took that to mean that that I had some value. And that they knew that they would let me go someday. But I didn't know that early on. I didn't I couldn't wrap my head around that five hundred and forty four days is a long time. And when you are in such 'isolation with so few characters around you I had one cellmate for a time. And then another and there was a revolving cast of guards who are, you know, they're basically to make sure that. That you're in your cell, and that, you know, your your fed when you're supposed to be fed and taken to interrogation when you're supposed to be taken. And then you have the interrogators it's a very few number of people that I came in contact with for a year and a half. So obviously, you're going to build some relationships. And I think if you've not been in that sort of situation, it would be hard to to grasp the notion that that you're getting to know somebody these are not people that I would actively choose to get to know, but I was forced to and and in that process, I could find out some of their weaknesses some of their likes ways that I could try and ingratiate myself to them. And and I hope when people read the book they understand that. I was in a weird situation that no one hopes to find themselves in and I did my best to cope with it. And use the people skills that I've been able to develop over a life. Time to to my advantage to the extent that you develop such report with some of them that you ended up hugging them when you left I one of them because he was my main adversary. He was the guy that was breaking me down from day one. And it's a it's a tormented relationship. But at the end of the day, my feeling was. You know, we've gone through this incredible ordeal. That in some ways is a very public. Occurrence, you know, it's a historical moment. There was a year and a half that was talked about in the world press. And we're the two people that were on the front lines of this behind these closed doors, not that I feel any sort of loss or or or missing of him. But it was the end of a very intense chapter in my life. It's really interesting to hear what you say in this case because one always wonders how one would behave in the same situation. But I want to ask you because you know, you talk about the avacado treat now as crazy as it sounds to you know, that they have people in prison in Iran right now for less. Yeah. Well, and and full climate environmental woods and they accuse them of being spies. And there are a number of Iranian Americans in prison in Iran, right now, you know. You happen to hit the sweet spot. If I might say that that they were real negotiations going on with Iran and the United States, and you able to be released at the end of that negotiation. What are you feelings for those Iranian Americans who are in jail right now at a time when President Trump's administration is very hostile to Iran to say, the least my heart breaks for them and their families on a daily basis. You know, you're right. I am the happy ending and it took five hundred forty four days for me to be sprung from that situation. At this moment. We don't see anything happening between the US and Iran that would indicate that there are negotiations going on for the people that are currently being held Americans and also British and Canadian nationals as well. And I think that that you know, whatever, you think about engaging with Iran, and you know, what the Obama administration did in terms of negotiating with Iran without an open channel to discuss these cases, and I would call them all hostage cases. Some people would say to me that you know, you don't know if these people are that are being held in Iranian prisons are innocent or not well based on total evidence that I experienced myself. I'm going to say that these people are innocent until proven guilty and not one of them has been proven guilty of any cry. Time. So until there is a process of negotiation setup to bring these people home. I don't see any way that they're they're gonna come home. And I believe that they're all being held as leverage for some future concession, maybe just play as I was indeed let me just go back to when you were released you came back to the Washington Post in in Washington. And you know, you will welcome. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Members of your colleagues there. Here's a little clip. Hardly a week or so after chase me got back. He came to the post he walked in the building. And it was a hero's. Welcome. I think everyone was just on the verge of tears and Jason stood up. My Iran interrogators told me that the Washington Post did not exist. But no one knew of my plight. And United States government would not lift a finger for my release. Today. I'm here in this room with the very people who helped prove the Iranians wrong. Well, it is again, very emotional and very relevant to what we were just talking about. You saw secretary of state Kerry prominent in that clip. And of course, he spent as much time as he could with his counterpart Java. Zarif trying to negotiate your release which did happen in conjunction with the end of the conclusion of this Iran nuclear deal. So let me ask you how you feel. Now, you say that you've been changed that you indicated at the beginning that you still have nightmares. How have you changed? I think physically I'm different of the shape of my body is not exactly what it was. When I went in. I went through a rapid weight loss in a very. Harsh set of circumstances. I've got aches and pains that probably won't go away respiratory issues that that have persisted in the three years since I've been out, but more than that it's different in in my my brain functions. My my sensitivity to light and sound my my anxiety in confined spaces, Mike confusion in crowds. These are all things that are are very normal for somebody who has experienced a along sustained period of trauma, but not normal for me and the inner workings of my own brain that existed before all of this. So, you know, it's it's a constant process of re-getting to know myself. But I think I'm doing pretty good at it at this point. Well, and by the looks of your book, you are doing pretty good. Well, we send you all us support. And thanks your colleague. And we're very very pleased to see that you are free, and you are writing and you're telling the world your story Jason resign. And thank you. Thank you Christiane. Thank you for your support, a press, freedom and me. A remarkable story of triumph over adversity from Jason resign who by the way is suing the Iranian government in US courts. But that's it for now. Remember, you can listen to a podcast at anytime. See us online at I'm on dot com and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank you for watching. And goodbye from London.

Iran United States Jason resign UN James spader Tehran America David Wallace wells China CNN Paris Boston Washington Washington Post Xeni dot Christiane Amanpour Srinivasa President Trump
Amanpour: James Melville, David Kirkpatrick and Eric Idle

Amanpour

57:47 min | 3 years ago

Amanpour: James Melville, David Kirkpatrick and Eric Idle

"They take one last ride around the world, the EMMY award winning Anthony, bourdain parts, unknown the final episodes chairs, Sundays at nine on CNN. Hello, everyone and welcome to Amman poor. Here's what's coming up. The sudden resignation of UN ambassador. Nikki Haley puts the unconventional Trump foreign policy squarely in the spotlight. We hear from veteran American diplomat who says he had no choice but to quit because he could no longer defend that policy. Mike exclusive interview with the former US ambassador to Estonia James Melville. Then as new details emerge and fears mount that Saudi journalist, Jamal kashogi has been murdered. Critics wonder, has Trump's foreign policy emboldened regimes to act with impunity plus Hari Sreenivasan looks on the bright side with comedy, great, Eric idle founding member of Monty python's flying circus. Welcome to the program. Everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London UN ambassador. Nikki Haley sudden departure throws a bright light on what may be the major foreign policy challenge facing the Trump administration. The persistent concern over President Trump's tendency to denigrate America's allies while praising adversaries or thorough -tarian leaders that very issue compelled veteran diplomat Jim Melville who was serving as ambassador to Estonia to quit his post and walk away from more than thirty years as a career. Foreign service officer Melville says, the president's admiration Vladimir Putin and Russia's quote, corrupt, authoritarian government, put him in an untenable position when he was asked to explain America's intentions last week, Mark, Jim Melville's formal departure from the US forest service. Now as a private set as citizen, he is free to speak his mind and he's joining me for his first. And exclusive interview from Neil. So ambassador Melville welcome to the program. Thank you, Christiane. It's a pleasure to be with you. I mean, they couldn't be a more opportune time to be speaking to you, and we're very grateful to have you because as I laid out there is so much to talk about right now, I in context of your own resignation and your own professional reasons for doing so, what do you make of an even more senior diplomatic cabinet member? Nikki Haley US UN ambassador sudden resignation sudden departure. Of course it's affected at the end of this year, right. Well, let me say first of all that as ambassador in Tallin when the Trump administration took office last January for diplomats words are like our fuel and the fact that secretary of state Tillerson chose not to engage with the press and went many, many weeks without doing. The press briefings or talking to journalists it. It was like being deprived of oxygen. And in those days I was very grateful that investor Haley spoke eloquently and frequently about the best interests of the United States and stood up for our institutions and values. I think she, she did a very credible job as you an ambassador. And so I think it's a, it's a shame that somebody who is so talented and really has the president's confidence has left the administration. But I, I'm sure that she hasn't left the public stage and perhaps she'll be able to engage a little bit more freely as a private citizen about her opinions and sticking up for our institutions. That's interesting. I sit a sort of a maybe a coded message that you think like many of the UN in five that she was always eyeing public run for public of. His in the United States, and this was an important vehicle that told by all accounts, she acquitted herself well doing this job. What impact on foreign policy do you think it will have given your immediate concerns about? You know, the denigration as you put it of allies and alliances the praise and sort of the praise of authoritarian regimes? Well, it's it's kind of a strange thing that most of the institutions are are our secretary of Defense, Secretary state, the intelligence community. The the law enforcement community still speaks for institutions and our interests. And I think for the most part, the message is consistent with what have been our policies for many, many decades. What I. Came to really have a hard time with was the historical rhetoric of the president himself and the disconnect between his words and what other leaders were saying became more and more difficult for me to explain and understand just quickey fit fit in those blinds. What did you mean the disconnect between his words and what other leaders were saying? Just filling that those blanks for me. Well, it started for me. I remember I was the US ambassador in 'Estonia. Estonia in less three hundred years. Estonia has been two hundred and fifty of them occupied by Russia. So there's there is a great sensitivity to their neighbor to the east and the solution to that geographic challenge that they face throughout their history was to embed themselves in the institutions of the west. These are the institutions that the United States built and led for many decades and primarily that means NATO during the campaign when candidate Trump was saying that NATO is obviously lead. And in fact, one of his advisers, the former speaker of the house of representatives was on television saying that, you know, perhaps Estonia wasn't worth defending because it's a suburb of Saint Petersburg. It put me in a very difficult position when they took office. So I was looking right from the start for. The administration to reassure our allies and return to the traditional rhetoric and language of American leadership regarding our field t to NATO and the institutions that we belong to and lead and the our allies. We're looking for that when when so that that was really important. And there were many, many leaders of the US institutions in government in the legislative branch in the the executive branch who came to tell them with messages of reassurance, and it was very important part of my my job to bring that message to the Estonians that the United States was true to our institutions that article five was our commitment. We would continue to live by the promises that we'd made to our our allies. I'm saying, you know, you mentioned what President Trump or is always or is campaign advisers said during the campaign actually the president himself around the NATO summit this year. Ear made similar comments about Montenegro, why should I send my son or anybody's to fight to defend Montenegro? We're going to get that to that in a moment, but I want to also ask you, would you think should be the appropriate use response to the disappearance of journalists, Jamal? Kashogi who obviously is a Saudi, and as we all know, Saudi Arabia and the current crown prince is a foam ally of President. Trump's President Trump made his first visit as president to Saudi Arabia. We are just getting word that the president has said that he is speaking and has spoken to the highest levels of the Saudi government, but we don't know anymore details. What should the United States do in this case with an ally. So close. Well, first of all, we should insist on knowing the truth. Mr. kashogi was a prominent journalist and spoke for many in Saudi Arabia and his opinions mattered and for any government to. Assassinate as has been alleged a leading journalist is a tragedy and a serious threat to international order. And we need to know what the truth is and the Saudis OS that truth. Of course, we have to say that in each occasion, when we ask for the Saudis to comment publicly, they haven't come on television, but they send us statements in the latest is that they continue to categorically. And I use that word because it's there's deny any involvement in this and say that they're trying to work it out themselves. Do you? Well, what I said at the beginning of the program was, do you believe having said what you just said that is up to the US to speak out? Very, very vociferously to demand the truth to demand accountability. Do you think given what you think about this president and his tendency towards these strongmen rulers? Is there a sense of of permission to act with impunity? You know, they might subliminally take from their relationship with the president and from what he says in public. Well, one of the things that I find most horrifying is the idea that the press and the media or the enemy of the people for those of us who speak Russian and have served in that part of the world. Those are particularly loaded terms. And I, I believe that the role of journalists such as yourself is so important in defending our institutions and preserving our democratic order. So Mr. kashogi being journalist and a member of the profession, his fate is is tied to why it is so important that we have freedom of the press and we and we do. Value that that promise in our constitution and I do not understand why. Facts and good journalism are perceived as being against the interests of the United States for the institution. So so let me put this to you. There is a group now amounting group of American foreign policy experts, former ambassadors and others who are beginning to write major books and scholarly works trying to figure out America's global role right now, and they're coming down sort of conclusion that America is abandoning its leadership role, particularly in the alliances and the moral imperative. Human rights that you've been speaking about. Bob Kagan is one of those. He's a more of a conservative think up, but about this issue on kashogi. He said, he said, sometimes a particular event, the fate of a particular individual becomes a symbol of a global historical trend reported mode of the Saudi journalist. Jamal show via post contributor is in a concert in his bone is one of those moments. It symbolizes the departure of the United States as a restraining. Force against evil actors in the world. So there is no US ambassador to Saudi Arabia right now. That's one big issue that s- seems to be a gaping hole, but do you agree with what cadence says that symbolizes the departure of the United States as a restraining force against evil actors in the world. Christina. Bob is an old friend and very wise observer. I absolutely do agree with what he said. And it's it's very important for those of us who have a platform to repeatedly stress the importance of our commitment to our values, human rights, free journalism. These are the things that should drive how the United States engages with the rest of the world, including Saudi labor leadership. So to hold them to account for what happens in that consulate in Istanbul isn't keeping with the best interests of the United States. So again, all these things you're saying an old, these recommended recommendations that you're saying for this administration. Presumably add up to the reason why you quit while you resign. Not just your post, but from the foreign service. Well, I had a long career. I had my most lights have a successful career. In fact, the administration had nominated sometime before I left someone to replace me, his nomination was withdrawn at the end of may, and I was given the option to stay on, but I had I had managed to get through the six months that Estonia had the presidency of the EU which was very important to our ally, and they did a wonderful job with those responsibilities. And it was also a platform that I could use to. Engage with Washington at a little bit higher attention level because of Stony is role. And then in February, Estonia celebrated its one hundred anniversary of independence. And there was a Baltic summit with the presidents of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia in the White House on on April third. So I had I had had almost three years in Tallin when I I was facing that decision of whether I should stay or go. But it was increasingly difficult as I said in my my op-ed and and in my Facebook post in June to explain or understand the difference between the president's language and the language that was coming out of the rest of the US government. So so let me so I decided to leave. I did not. I did not plan originally to be quite so public, but it was when the president went on the attack against NATO directly and the EU that I felt the better choice for me was to leave so that I could have conversations with people like you about how we can do better and how I want the president to succeed. I, you know, it's in every American's interest that we have a successful, it administration and a president who can do the job well, and I'm gonna get to that. I'm gonna get to that in a moment. But first I want to ask you this because again. Is being raised by some more conservative thinkers and activists in the United States in the wake of Nikki Haley as resignation that needs to be a robust America first candidate who gets the job of the next UN ambassador. But you have written that in this op-ed that you described that America I is a sham, so you and you, and you talked about what you've just been talking about the rhetoric that's coming out of of of the White House on NATO and other such alliances. When you say America, I is a sham and the president is busy. Saying that he's racking up all sorts of victories that make America first. And as you heard Nikki Haley said in the two years that I've been here the two years and the Trump administration, the world may not like us so much, but they certainly respect us. Why do you say it's a sham. Well, first of all, I'd I'd say that the United States is and has always been respected by our allies and adversaries, and that does not change from one administration to the other. I have spent better than thirty years as a nonpartisan apolitical diplomat and when it comes to relations in the world international affairs, how we face the global challenges. It seems to me that I as as Senator Vandenberg said a long time ago, politics stop at the water's edge and whether you're a democrat or Republican when it comes to the rest of the world, you're, you're not adversaries your teammates and your your your rhetoric should reflect a commitment to our constitution. Our institutions are values and I just I, I just think that we have a president who, for some reason has an agenda that is in at least in terms of the language that's in opposition to. The role of a president of the United States as I have understood to be, you know, it's really model for my model for the I mean in my thirty three years, I think you could make a very strong argument for George H W Bush as being the model leader in terms of how to engage with our allies and our adversaries and the global community. You want people who lead the list. We're all human beings every political leader in every country as a human being. And when they are disrespected and their role is denigrated, it makes it harder for them in their own political world to stand by our side. And you wanna make it easy for them to say, yes, you're right. The United States has a point. I'm happy to stand with my ally. But when you throw candy at the chancellor of Germany or use hostile rhetoric against good Lord, the prime minister of Canada. It's very hard to understand and explain what about what about when you when you make up? We'll make nice with the leader of North Korea which was busy testing, nuclear weapons, and and intercontinental ballistic missiles. I mean, what about that? He claims that the whole tone and the temperature has been dramatically reduced because of his style and his efforts. Well, I think it's absolutely true that the hostility and the temperature has been turned down. And so in that regard, you know, I, I can't argue with president that his personal engagement with the North Korean leader has brought about good results and it's it. But you know, that's that's an example of what I'm talking about. You know he in regard the president's rhetoric tracks more traditionally with the approach that that I think a successful president should have regarding leaders of other countries and and much better for them to be talking then for him to be calling him little rocket man. Just a very final question you came. You talked about the Tillerson of Iran, of course. Now it's the pump peyot era. At the State Department. There have been a lot of high profile departures on matters of policy in principle, and there are still a lot of embassador ships and other key positions on filled. They're being filled more rapidly. Now, do you see a change for the better in terms of pursuing American global leadership around the world in the pump peyot State Department. Yes, Christine, I do. I think secretary of state pump peyot is is is doing a good job. And I think by returning to a more traditional approach to the vacancies and our responsibilities, it's it's very much tracking with what our best interests are. And I, I wish my colleagues are still in the State Department, all the best their their success is important for America. Well, we are very much appreciative of your insides. Thank you very much for giving us this. Your first interview on a really important day. We try to really sink our teeth into all these foreign policy challenges. I'm Busta James Melville. Thanks for joining us. Hello, everyone I'm unleash malaria and the host of the film struck podcast. A show for love is of great cinema on the latest episode. Oscar nominated screenwriter and director Timur Jenkins tells me about her film private life, which is partly based on her own struggles with facility and how it took her some time to see the entertainment value in the story. I had a friend who when I would tell her my stories about what was happening from, you know, like girlfriend confident. She said, you should write this stuff down and she said, because it would be good material for movie. And I said, I never talked to. That's never gonna happen. Of course, I did hear him make sure to subscribe and listen on apple podcasts, Spotify, stick jar or wherever else you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Howard Beck, and I've got your who's Chris Mannix on Bleacher reports, the full forty eight l. as what they differently. Do they believe that playmakers around the Braun is going to work because the weight of on. You're going to have known abroad James, a lot of time, longtime in LeBron's. I'm not exactly sure other coun- forty eight is now available on Spotify and of course you can always listen, subscribe on the beach report app, apple podcasts over ever. You listen to podcasts. I'm eighty cats and UCLA Chris Wilkes is on March vannice three sixty five. And hopefully you'll though some of those pens where everybody coming onto the Brian come check out some UCLA games right after that. You see the see the up and coming subtract March madness. Three sixty five now at apple podcasts and spot upon. So now we're going to do more on the troubling disappearance of Saudi journalists, Jamal kashogi. So you know that after a visit to Yvonne bul concert more than a week ago, he has not been since seen since. And today we learned than US intelligence is monitoring communications into sets trying to determine whether it happened under the direction or with the knowledge of the highest levels of the Saudi government, including crown prince. Mohammad bin Salman kashogi is a well-known journalist and a Washington Post columnist. He was once an adviser to Saudi officials. He has become a prominent critic of the Saudi government and an advocate for reform with Turkish security and intelligence officials telling journalists on background to cou- Shoghi is dead and the Saudis categorically denying any involvement still claiming he left the concert through a back entrance. All we know for for sure is that he hasn't been seen since he entered the building on October. Second, we have. Asked both Turkish and Saudi officials to come on our program every day since this story broke and they have yet to agree. And we've had direct word from kashogi fiance had TJ Chang geeze who tells us that she's had no news of him and that she has yet to be contacted by Saudi authorities chain geeze told us that she is in a state of deep confusion and sadness, and she added that. I had this strange feeling like a failed to look after something. So dear speaking in the holes of congress today Senator Lindsey, Graham who sits on the Armed Services Committee said that this could be a game changer. Listen to what he said. Never been more disturbing them right now. If this did in fact happen at this man was murdered in Saudi constantly. Just a Bill that would cross every line of normality in the international community. If it did happen that would be held the pay. Now international correspondent David Cote, Patrick has been reporting on the story for the New York Times, and he's joining me now from Ankara. David, welcome back to our program. We laid out some of the broad brush strokes that we know is some of the new developments. Just tell us, what is your latest reporting. Well, it's it's not for the squeamish Turkish. Government sources. Government officials have concluded that Mr. Cogan Jamal kashogi we both knew was killed in the conflict not only killed in the consulate. He was killed within two hours after arriving in the consulate by a team of fifteen Saudi agents who arrived on two different airplanes that day for the purpose of killing him, the Turks believe they know the crew arrived for the purpose of killing him in part because it happened so fast. But also because they brought with them an autopsies expert and a bone saw to dismember the body so dramatic kashogi. It was not only killed in the conflict according to the Turkish government and its intelligence sources. His body was also dismembered in order to remove it from the conflict. So it's it's horrific. And in many respects, David, it is horrific. And I had not heard that detail. L. about a bone saw and an autopsy expert. I mean, who is telling you this stuff? I obviously don't want you to give me names of your soul sickles. I'd love them, but why haven't the Turks come out and publicly made a conclusion? And how are you getting this level of detail to president of Turkey was briefed on these conclusions on Saturday, and that is when the league first began to appear in the western press and also in the New York Times. So the Turkish government at the highest level has known. This has had this picture for several days. Now, what the people in the government are telling me is that this information was collected through intelligence sources and like every intelligence agency in the world, they are reluctant to disclose information in a way that will expose their sources. So I'm guessing that we're talking here about a combination of human informants. And also signals intelligence that leads them to this conclusion, but they're certainly sticking by it and there's sticking by at a in a case where there's no upside for them right. Turkey really does not need a rupture with Saudi Arabia, unimportant trading partner and another regional power. That's the last thing that Turkey, especially with its economy and its current state needs right now. So they have no reason to be try trying to make up lurid stories like this in order to inflame the tensions. So what do you think is the reason for if they have this amount of detail? Where is the surveillance video that presumably every concert and official embassy has and what will it take for the Turkish authorities to make their conclusions public or well, so now we know that there is of surveillance video there. A security camera footage of of dramatic show going into the consulate. None has surfaced yet of him. Coming out. Your question is a good one. Why are the Turks leaking in so many directions and letting more and more details damning details come out, including the names and the identity of the alleged assassins. And yet on the record in public aired wine and those around him have not yet publicly made this accusation of Saudi Arabia. I have to believe on told that they're still hoping for some kind of a face-saving resolution for both sides at the same time, both of these two men crown prince Mohammad bin Salman on the one hand and president went on the other have very robust egos. And as as the Saudis go further and further to say, we don't know what happened here. We have no idea what's happening, Jamal? Where's concern of everyone at the same time, the Turks, keep leaking more and more damning details about the alleged assassination. It becomes much harder for each side to back down. I mean, I hear speculation about a scenario where the Saudis. Might say, oh, he was killed, but it was by rogue actors or some third party. And the Turks would perhaps accept that and everyone could move on. But as I say, as each side digs into its respective and totally contradictory position, it's very, very hard to see how that would be worked out right now. So David, I want to play you. The natives we've heard from President Trump who today has given his most detailed comments yet, and we have reported that he has spoken to the highest levels of the Saudi government and that this is what he said. Win demanding everything. We want to see what's going on here. That's a bad situation. And frankly, the fact that it's a reporter. You could say in many respects at makes it, it brings it to a level it's versus relation for us. And for this way, we do not like seeing what's going on now is, you know they're saying we had nothing to do with it, but so far everyone saying they had nothing to do with penance inside of Turkey and the Turkish government is working verse strongly so far. So we'll see what happens. Well, David, you just saw what the president said. I don't know how much you can add to that that has been reporting from the from the Washington Post that the United States intercepted communications that suggested that the Saudis were in fact worm. Find to discussing a plan to capture kashogi. You heard what Senator Lindsey, Graham said that if indeed the worst is discovered it would be for him. He said, a game changer regarding Saudi Arabia. At this point, I also have to read out what the Saudi Arabians have said to us, ambassador prince hotted bin Salman, who is the embassador in in the United States and the brother of the crown prince. We have seen over the last few days, various militias leaks and grim rumors flying around about Jamal's. Whereabouts and fate. I show you that the reposes suggests that Jamaica Shoghi went missing in the consulate in his tumble. All the kingdoms. Authorities have detained him or killed him are absolutely false, and baseless. This is what they've been saying. Now every day and and and again today, as you come out with more of this kind of reporting, are you getting through to any Saudi sources? David? What are they saying? We're hearing the same blanket denials that you are right now. And as I say, as each side digs in, it becomes harder and harder to see how this gets resolved. The Turkish government is hoping that President Trump will step in. I don't think they're hoping that Trump will in some way punish or Austria, Cise Saudi Arabia. That's not in the cards, but to try to work out some kind of face-saving compromise. I think they were the Turkish your moon very much like to be standing behind their American ally. As they try to work this out, you get you get the feeling that the the Turkish government would accept some kind of compromise. But as yet, it's very hard to see how President Trump would would would accomplish that or given his substantial commitment to Saudi Arabia and to crown prince Mohammad bin. Someone personally who he's often praised and expressed his confidence in, it's very hard to see his motivation to try to weigh heavily here will, yes, and the idea of coming up with a face-saving compromise and to try to get the United States to play into that would be incredibly controversial for the leader of the free world. Not to mention, you know, human rights and I went and freedom and safety of the press and all the rest of it. I, it is actually quite extraordinary the situation, the way it's developing and I wanna play. We've all talked to Jamal over the years. He's been a good source for all of us and before when he was a visor working with the Saudi officials in embassies and in also Saudi Arabia itself. And even afterwards when he came out and started two-leg against what he considered an overbearing crackdown on political activity at home. He said several times that there was fear about what could happen to people who spoke out, let him this is what he said to CNN. In just a year ago. You received a phone call or the ordering me to go silent with no coat decree with just a someone from wwl court and official from the Royal corps who was close to the leadership and ordered me to be silent that offended me and that what every other throaty can go through. I know minister route is before they were rested. They had to go to the security and signed pledges not to contradict the government. So that we are David. I mean, he, he lays out what he was told them while others were told. And you know, because he's told us before that he himself was told to be silent. He was silent on Twitter for about six months, and then he decided he needed to leave because you couldn't be silent anymore. Describe for us a little bit. The man, the reporter, you know the reformist who you knew. Well, so the thing about g. Shoghi is he's not your classic dissident. I mean, he was for a long period of time, the consummate insider in Saudi Arabia, right. He had been a journalist for Saudi Arabia. He had been enough ghanistan and interviewed. Osama bin Laden is capacity is journalists, but he had also worked inside the Saudi embassy in Washington inside the Saudi embassy in London and was an advisor to the Royal family. So he was someone who western diplomats as well as western journalists would turn to for a long time for the Royal family's perspective. He was someone who could lay out in cogent, intelligent, reasonable terms, how the Royal family saw things. And so this turn over the last three years where he is felt there is no room for him in Saudi Arabia and has gone abroad is really remarkable. And even during the period when he left and become a columnist for the Washington Post and a critic of the current Saudi government, he would often say, you know, I'm not against the monarchy. You know he was. He was a Saudi pay. It and by no means a radical, his differences. We're only with the specific Saudi leadership and its policies of the moment, but if I can go back to it again, I can't emphasize enough how widely known and really well liked. He was among western diplomats and journalists because he was a reliable. He was intelligent. He was lucid, and he was impossible not to like really. So David. Why do you think this is an if this has happened, it would be an unprecedented reach by Saudi Arabia. It has had problems with dissidents and others before, but there's been nothing that we've heard up about the comes close to this allegation. What is going on inside the kingdom? You write a lot about that part of the world. You've written a whole new book about the Arab spring and looking back at at the political dynamics in that part of the world. What's happening there right now. Well, if you're talking about the region, there's Arabian a turn back towards of authoritarianism since jails, thirteen. In Saudi Arabia, you have to look at the personality of crown prince. Mohammad bin Salman here is a thirty three year old prince who has amassed an a degree of power that is unprecedented in more than half a century in Saudi Arabia. It's a system where power was distributed among different branches of the Royal family in part in the interest ability. He's changed all that in a big rush and really brought it all into his own hands and having done that. He's made a number of previous steps which have shocked the west and even alarm the west. I'm talking about detaining two hundred of the kingdom's richest businessmen and even members of his own family. And the Ritz Carlton hotel without any judicial process leading the three year old war in Yemen, that many in the west call like humanitarian catastrophe and for for a few. As appearing to kidnap, the prime minister of Lebanon and detain him against his will. So those are three things that you would think would have lost him the confidence of the west. And yet until now he's appear to be in good standing. He had a tour of the us. He met with many prominent executives. He's welcome to the White House. So perhaps I don't know what's going through his head. Perhaps he feels that nothing can stop him that he can get away with it. Okay. So we have. We had other hand, he feels that all of the criticism is sticking him and he needs to silence Mr. kashogi for that reason, we have thirty seconds left. Might this change the perception because everybody was looking there were even columnists in the United States writing about a new Saudi Arabia reform Saudi Arabia. He's got his twenty twenty reform plan that all sorts of internationals were engaged with. Could this flip that switch. You know, it's very hard to know whether it will the argument that he was making for reform of the Saudi economy, I think, remains a valid one. And so it's too soon. I think to tell what the final conclusion of international public opinion will be about what happened to Jamaica show. All right. And also what it'll mean for perceptions of Mohammed bin Salman it's a really dramatic story, not least because it involves out colleague and friend, and we still want to know the truth about what happened to him. David Kirkpatrick. Thank you so much indeed for joining us from Ankara in Turkey. So we're gonna switch tone a little bit. Nonetheless, freedom of speech has long, been a topic of debate even within the world of comedy for that time. Few faced more controversy over this then British comedians Monty, python, Eric idle was a founding python. He has been clapping his coconuts for five decades reminding us to always look on the bright side of life in his new sorta biography. Eric, finds his voice. In the sixties cultural revolution and recounts the famous faces and the knights of me that he met along the way. Eric idle took our Hari Sreenivasan on a laugh down memory lane. You've decided on a memoir. Why? Well, our fiftieth anniversary Monty python is coming up next year, and I thought we're going to have to answer questions. So let me see what I can remember and write it down before I forget someone else who's gonna ride it if you don't go. That's the other thing. Yes. I mean that was Winston Churchill said history will be kind to me because I intend to write it. Why do you think Monty python's lasted fifty years at six or at least that it's still funny that is to me a kind of wonderful mystery. And I think partly to do with the fact that it's not rooted in time like the comedies genetic, generic, the their characters, but then not like this particular president or like something the live. When you look at old Wong's, oh, you think, oh, yeah, Gerald fold fell over a lot. So you have to remember all that to to be into love. Whereas pythons off to Centaur and the the characters are just so silly or generic people interested in. Two girls. Let me folk to gross. Hey, y'all, Steve, knowingly. Yes, that's not snap. Snap, being wink, wink. Sign him. Oh. You know, you're known for being a funny man, but when you as you start out in the book, you talk about kind of a difficult childhood at least at least the boarding school, if as and even before that, losing your father at an early age, but that all of that helped you become the funny man that you are now, how is that? Well, I think that. People who are comedians. Very weird people maybe damaged early because they have to fish sanctions to do to stand on stage and ask people to laugh at you, you know, and then they become addicted to that Bach that humans make the laugh and and that becomes a kind of thing you seek out as you if you pursue it professionally. I remember going to my daughter's school and going into pre k. and knowing exactly who the funny kids would, then they're right there the the funny right from that time. Well, how do you tell how can you tell this? Just a Massachusetts. On a lot of it is attitude because comedy is a sort of. I think is a way of thinking. So when you look at a news event, you in Megyn interpreted as funny. I'm looking for what what is is interesting or around about it. And that's I think that's a way of thinking that that makes comedy or comedy, writers that have into it. Did this early boarding school period kind of teach you a healthy disrespect for thority. My son, yes, because you could only have fun by disobeying the school rules. So it's like me and being in the military or on the Parisian you're on the surface, you behaving property right wears, but I really going over the wall to meet goals. We'll get bear on get cigarettes and things like that. So I think that was one of the things. And the other thing is you're a seriously mocking some of the things they say to you, although you don't ever tell them that, you know, because we will beaten with canes, and then they will say which fear own good. Well, if it's for my own good, why don't I beat you really nice for you to, you know. Showy, yes. There's an underlying text subtext, which is the truth am. I think that was true. Say in communist societies where people weren't allowed to say anything, but underneath there was his underground Huma going all the time. Well, one of your first bits that you talk about that actually got the attention of that was actually written by John Cleese, but you were in college at the time. This is a biblical weather forecast. Yes. It was started as a big little news caused BBC BBC good. Even in the first chapter of the news. And they were kind of very call kind of jokes, but then the weather forecast came on these talking about in the play. He's locus followed by some flies on Tuesday, frogs. And you. That I did that in my college view, and it was written by John Cleese. So this is my second term an off the show. He came up and I met him this. He's like February nineteen, sixty three. And you guys decided to be friends ever since no. He said he wants me to join the footlights which is a club in Cambridge, just comedy, and I hadn't heard of it and then she, we'll all come along anyway. And I, we have to addition to get in and I got in and then my life changed because that sort of became my college. Yeah, they gave lunches. We had a ball that would open at ten thirty nights. It was fantastic. The pumps closed in England at ten, so it was. It was a really nice and then I met all these really funny people and learned about comedy, which is anyway, you can buy actually getting up on stage and doing it. You had an amazing opportunity at the BBC to run with this with this group of friends and right this material. The thing that they're stand, what they were buying? No, because we didn't know what we would doing and we didn't know what we will going to do. We are in the pitch meeting and you don't know what's going on. We had no idea, and we just said, made them now. Yeah, we have banned. Now we went about film here, let you will have film and the point once they and they should just go away and make thirteen. Extraordinary, and but what they knew us we'd written for frost, we, we're all professionals. We done children's shows. John Cleese was already star because he'd been on the frost report so they trusted him and they really didn't want to know because it was a new slot. They were opening up after ten thirty at night on a Sunday when the Queen came on on the horse and then television close down. So they didn't really mind that would just exploring that territory. Well, what happens if we put on a show on a Sunday night after the pumps of closed and they had no idea who would be watching and they had a lot of complaints, but they were very good. They just ignored them and they let us do what we wanted, and they never even read the scripts. They just know that thing just do that thing when you guys are in the room writing Monty, python sketches, you weren't not necessarily looking at this actors. No, we're not actors. We writers so that that was one of the original things about it that the whole show was written by the six of us and we acted everything. And so you know, even the women's roles, we would do them because we wanted more par, six role, six people together around. You know what I mean? And so we played everything and and that was that was kind of also gave it a cer- madness quality to it. But the rights as the charge, always the name of the book always look on the bright side of life is named after the song that you wrote, and it is one of the most iconic scenes in the history of Monty python there you are on crucifixes. Always look on the bright side of life. And apparently it is now still the number one song being played at funerals. If the UK. If the UK. Well for sought, he's that's pretty heavily ironic. When you being crucified to say, look on the bright side, you know, along on to go. But but what happens? It started to be sung by in the Falklands war, Sheffield was hit by an extra set and the sailors sat on the deck for three hours singing that song wash there waiting to be rescued. And then when they would doing the the, the Gulf war, they are f-bomb suited their sieve low level things shooting up to go. They would seeing always on the bright side of life, so became an assault. You know when things are really bad and bleak, it became a way to sing and cheer up. Yeah. Do you want us at your funeral? I know I told my wife, I want shit on my face and tell me that you love me, but. I've, I've left a bribe for her to say something really awful extra money if she know that something else, if you say that I've left a little extra bonus money if she comes up with the memorial, a win that movie came out a life of Brian. There were protests in the United States. There were protests in the UK there were protests all over. You had rabbis, you had Christians, all kinds of people could not deal with what you were trying to do at the time. No, no. We were supposed to come here and do promotion, and they said, forget it. It's on the news. You know, people are protesting. They, they were picketing Warner Brothers in LA and said, worn umbrellas, are the agents of the devil. So they they, they didn't need us because at all, once you're on the news, you got free publicity every night. You couldn't. You couldn't possibly beat that. Yeah. And so it was a blockbuster success. Yeah, yeah. And then you also have other major films that every twelve year old boy remembers. Holy grail also wonder, what is it about these movies that goes beyond the twelve year old boy, I think it's very funny. I think grails got a lot of laughs and you know, it's it's not taking seriously in filmmaking terms a low, just look like a real film and they're behaving childish ways and told teams. Suddenly having Pinson cows thrown. That's what what's not like about that. Bring out. We were actually filming it in nasty mud and horrible situations. So it did, you know you were miserable when you were there? The misery was real, and that that's always funny if it's really unpleasant, you can be fairly sure. It's funny. This is one function of your life of being part of Monty python since then you've gone on to write music, right plays a play that is familiar to a lot of people in the United States is spam a lot that did critically end at the box office quite well. Well, I was trying to write a musical. We want about cricket. She was clearly not going to work in America. Okay. And then I. So actually the grail is perfect because it's a bit like a parody evolvement in low in grins. All about. And also you could do it on stage. She didn't need horses, and it's really funny and it seems to be always about to be a song. I mean, surely I'm not dead yet was always in the holiday, but it wasn't. So we got to adapt it for the stage and we had to change it a lot because there's ninety eight characters in the film. It has no shape whatsoever and is stopped by the police. Just stopping it. So, but I had, you know, I had Mike Nicholls to to work with, although I think I think I done it by them, but so that was great, fun, adapting it for the it was just really fun and that twenty five million people have watched that play. And we're about to do it as as a movie. This is also a forwarded you a fairly fantastic life. As you write in the book, you have gotten to sort of hobnob with royalty, whether it's rock and roll, or the actual prince or some amazing people that you talk about in the book that that's not what the kid that was growing up in that town was destined to do or be right, that sort of in a way because we were part of this generation who all the sixties who invented everything because there was nothing. There was a bomb sites and rationing, and it was really awful. There wasn't a comedy show there three years before that we are now on. And that what happened was an all the rock and roll this loved what we were doing because they'd love comedy. And so they sought us out. We didn't go looking to looking for them. You became really good friends at George Harrison. What did he teach you over time? He was amazing. I mean, he I, I was thinking now is my closest I've had to guru because he was very good. I was very depressed at the time. My marriage was breaking up and he was just also positive and always so generous to everybody. And he didn't have to do with the fact that he was so successful or because they mean the most successful things in the world. And he realized they were going to die and very early on. You can't take it with you on the best examples you know. So watch you were there, you're still going to die. So he began preparing himself for his own death. When I was around for and he, he really had, no, he really had no regrets show fear. Yeah, and that was great. You also write a lot about Robin Williams? Yes, yes. Shared a long friendship. I mean you you guys have vacation with your family's. Yeah. No, Robin was a very good friend and just a wonderful man. A really, really generous, lovely genius. And that was just so hot, rending. It was the last thing I wrote for the book. I finished the book and I thought you've avoided Robin, and I thought, well, I've got to write about him and because people like to know what he was like, they didn't know his comedy, but what would you really like? And so I felt I had to write a chapter about him and that was hard because I think I've been pretending yet she wasn't really gone. There's a streak of. Kind of tragedies of some of your friends and colleagues as you go buy some to alcoholism or take their own lives, do you feel? I don't know if it's survivor's guilt or what could I have done? How is it possible that these people made these choices. I think you know spoiler alert we all die. And when you get to my age, you a lot of people probably know more people who are dead, the neural live and. Some just I mean, in the last few years, I mean, you know, Mike Nichols and and Carrie Fisher. And lots of really funny people whom I relied on in my life have just suddenly went and left. Has your relationship with the Monty python gang changed over time now now that you see them with the benefit of hindsight and age and what's worked and what hasn't and how their lives have changed. Sure. Because you're all going, you know, you're going through the same process and. And this. Raft of the Medusa euro sliding off the life off into the shock. So waiting. So. Python is really good fun to be with all really great fun. When we're together the, it's still just as funny. I mean, it's really funny and and I like that. So we do get together now and again, but now we have much more time for each other. Yeah, yeah, much more because we don't have to do anything together. I mean, we did to say goodbye. That was twenty fourteen and a now, you know, it's beyond implausibility of doing anything. Have you gotten funnier? I think a little bit. Yeah, I think I think we're still very funny certainly with each other. Yeah, I think so, yes. But I think we always were. She was a very strange group. It was self selected. Yeah, and it was all and it worked. So we just kept it going, you know, there's a section near the end of the book. I'm just going to quote it says laughter is still the best revenge. One day the sun will die. One day the galaxy will die. One day the entire universal die. I'm not feeling to good myself. So what have I learned over my long and weird life? Well, firstly, that there are two kinds of people and I don't much care for either of them. Secondly, when faced with a difficult choice, either ways, often best. Thirdly, always leave a party. When people begin to play the Bongos. Tip. Advice leave out. I think that pretty much covers lifetime advice. Thanks so much. Eric idle along and weird life, perhaps, but a great and funny legacy. And how important on this day to hear him. Describe the importance of freely speaking and even getting under people's skin, particularly the skin of the powerful now for something completely different tomorrow. I'll talk to historian Michael Beschloss about his new book presidents of war, an alarming account of how certain American presidents pushed the country into cost k wars to serve their own political ends. But for now that is it for a program. Thanks for watching. And remember, you can always listen to a podcast see us online at Amazon dot com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter, goodbye from London. It's here to tell you about weekend warriors. It's my new foreign policy podcast which dares to ask what else is going on at the end of each week. I'll speak to a rotating cast of experts to get their unfiltered takes on the most pressing global issues facing America from the humanitarian crisis in Syria to the latest updates on North Korea's nuclear weapons program. 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Amanpour: Gretchen Carlson, Adel Ahmed Al-Jubeir and David Miliband

Amanpour

57:26 min | 3 years ago

Amanpour: Gretchen Carlson, Adel Ahmed Al-Jubeir and David Miliband

"By the new book, how the internet happened from Netscape to the iphone, the first single volume history of the technology industry since the dawn of the World Wide Web. It's about Mark Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs. It's about why Facebook beat my space. It's about how Napster net flicks revolutionized media. It's about whatever happened to AOL and it's about how the internet happened to us by the book how the internet happened from Netscape to the iphone by Brian McCullough. Take one last ride around the world, the EMMY award winning Anthony, bourdain parts, unknown the final episodes chairs, Sundays at nine on CNN. Hello, everyone and welcome to. I'm on poor his what's coming up. From Bill Cosby to allegations against the supreme court. Nominee the metoo movement faces its biggest test yet with me to discuss this watershed moment is Gretchen Carlson the form of Fox News anchor who started the ball rolling on sexual harassment, and one also ahead. My exclusive interview with the Saudi foreign minister on Trump's OPEC oil attack women's rights in the kingdom and Saudis war in Yemen. It's turned into a humanitarian catastrophe and the president of the International Rescue Committee. David Miller band has just returned from that country and he shed his, I witnessed report with our Hari Sreenivasan. Welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York Bill Cosby woke up in jail today. He was once America's favorite TV, dad, but he was led out of the courtroom in handcuffs and in disgrace. Having been sentenced to three to ten years at a maximum security prison for drugging and sexually assaulting Andrea Constand fourteen years ago, at least sixty other women have accused the comedian. But Constance was the only case that fell within the statute of limitations. This is the first major conviction since the emergence of the metoo movement, a defining moment the reckoning around sexual abuse and consent continues as so many levels of society including the supreme court and the allegations against President Trump's nominee, Brad Kavanagh. A third witness has made you allegations of sexual misconduct and Capitol Hill is preparing for what will be among the most watched hearing. Anita hill to conserve prem- court. Nominee Clarence Thomas back in one thousand nine hundred ninety. One with me to discuss this is Gretchen Carlson who's no stranger to taking on the powerful. She blew the whistle on sexual harassment at Fox News, and she sued her former boss the late, but once mighty Roger Ailes and she shared her own experience in her book be fears, stop harassment, and take your power back and Gretchen is joining me here right now. Welcome to the program right back. Thanks for having me just to say as these new allegations come out in the last few seconds. President Trump has called them lies and judge Cavanaugh has publicly denied them, but it does seem to be mounting pattern of these allegations. So I just want to ask you given all that we said leading in given this moment. Now, where do you think the reckoning is and all we had a very dangerous precarious moment? Or do you think this could be a moment to push it over the top? So I think this example with cash. China is different than some of the other metoo examples we've seen over the last two years because we have so much politics involved in it. Both sides have probably made mistakes with the way in which they handled information and the way they politicized it. So if you take politics out of it, I think it's not surprising to see that once you have one accusation, you tend to have another and another. We've seen that pattern play out over the last two years. I do think it'll be a mistake to try and rush this vote before we can actually hear from more of these women and more witnesses for that matter. Because unfortunately, Christiane we're still in this. He said she said, and without actual evidence it remains. He said, she said you amongst those who tend to believe the first. The first accused of the first witness, Christine, blazey Ford. Well, I think here's what's changed since my story broke more than two years ago, women are actually believed or at least they're given a second thought, right? It's not just immediate. Some people immediately say they don't believe them, but I think that that's changed dramatically. I think that that in the past when a woman would come forward and this is why women didn't come forward in the past, it was because you're automatically maligned. You're a liar. You're just doing this for fame. I think that's changed dramatically. But as I said before, usually where you have one person, you tend to see that they're developed some sort of pattern. I just wanna bring up a Neil times full page ad. That was in the newspaper today, and it is almost a replica of an ad that came out in one thousand nine hundred one and it's sixteen hundred names. Remembering the sixteen hundred African American women who said that they believed in need to hill back when she was making these accusations against Clarence Thomas. And of course he has a supreme court. Nominee was then confirmed. And he sits on the supreme court date. But now this latest one mirrors the number sixteen hundred names, but then men who believe Christine blazey Ford, along with the women who've signed petitions, how much of a dramatic move is that to see men standing up and having their names in print to be counted, huge. You know, my first television job was actually covering the Anita hill hearings really? Yes. And I was promptly sexually harassed thereafter on the job by your own bible inside your where I was working. Yes. So my initial inclination as a young woman in her early twenties at that time was well, of course, I believe her. I mean, why would a woman put herself up to something like that? Unless she was telling the truth? I'm so I was horrified at the way that she was denounced the idea that sixteen hundred men. Now in two thousand eighteen with sign their names to say that I'm standing up for these women is huge because to me Christiane the final. Of this tipping point in this cultural revolution that we've been experiencing over the last few years is men and that is so important because at the same time you've got very powerful men, the president of the United States. You know, at first he said, you know, she should have her say, but now since it's got more more close to a vote and maybe Kavanagh's confirmation hangs in the balance. He is joining the the bandwagon against these accuses that's a very powerful man. And then you have the specter, a very powerful man, an all male Republican majority on the Senate Judiciary committee, and they've had to be dealing with this. Do you agree with what they've done, which is to call in a female prosecutor mind you a sex crimes prosecutor to interrogate both Christine blazey Ford, and presumably to ask questions of judge Cavanaugh and this is what I was saying earlier about politics. Listen those same senators who were there. They're twenty some years ago for Anita hill. They saw what happened to the way in which they were protrayed after that. Right. And even more so now all of these years later, they don't want to be in that same situation. So I understand politically why they wanna bring in a prosecutor and especially a woman, but it's very transparent to me in that sense. I mean, I, my one hope would be that in the sense that it's a prosecutor who specializes in this that she would be able to understand exactly how to ask the questions and maybe we won't be listening to members of congress go on and on about themselves, and we might actually get to the facts. It's interesting because you're not lawyer. I'm not a lawyer, but I did speak to a prominent defender this morning of of women who have have made these allegations, and she's one cases in court you. She said, look, this isn't a trial to bring a prosecutor has all sorts of risks, and it does allow the men on the Senate Judiciary committee to sort of dodge their responsibility. Apparently the. Democrats will get to actually ask their own quests. They're choosing to do that, right? So I mean, it will be interesting to me to see how that plays out. You're going to. It's going to be criticized, no matter who does what. But again, I think that this case is so different from other cases that we've looked at in the metoo era because it is so heavily politicize. I wanna bring up your former folks news and kill. You know, all about the power of the interview, the power, public relations. I wanna play a little bit of what judge Cavanaugh and his wife while they were sitting together and folks news interview earlier this week, tears and the whole. The whole thing I want to play you Judge Kevin, oh said, and then I'll your opinion of whether this was the right PR move. I've always treated women with dignity and respect. I went to all Catholic high school, a Jesuit high school, whereas focused on academics, athletics going to church every Sunday at little flower. Working on my service projects, I did not have sexual intercourse or anything close to sexual intercourse in high school or for many years thereafter. I mean, that's what he says. And what do you think? Was it a smart move to take to television? I can see why his adviser suggested that he do that. I mean, it is unprecedented in the history of modern history of supreme court nominees, right? There's never been the public statement or a public interview that I can understand why has PR people may have recommended that, but I do think that there's a difference between whether or not you're celebrate or you haven't had any sexual encounters as young person and whether or not the the accusations could still be true. Those two things aren't necessarily the same, but I understand from his PR perspective, why he wanted to get out that messaging and if presumably you wash the interview, would you think, how did you do? Well, I think that he repeated a lot of the same answers over and over again. So you could tell that that's exactly the message that that he wanted to get out, but listen, if he has not done any of these allegations, then that's how he would continue to answer it. No matter what the question was, what about so many, and it's not just a, you know, the men on the Senate Judiciary committee bit sort of this quite a wide debate going on about should indiscretions. I'm saying indiscretions now not serious allegations, but indiscretions when you're a high school student. Be considered so many years later, you know, fifty odd years later or should what goes on in high school as judge Kavanagh's alleged stay in high school. I guess it depends on what the accusation is. I mean, so you don't buy, it's drinking too much, you know? Well, I'll just share that. I mean, I did that too. So I mean, I'm not sure that that is something that should keep you from becoming a supreme court Justice. I mean, obviously, if it's sexual harassment or salt, it's a completely different conversation. I want to play what President Trump said about one of the witnesses who's come through Ramirez, Deborah Ramirez, who talked about she alleged that the judge will at the time at Yale exposed himself to, and this is what President Trump has said about it. There were gaps, and she said she was totally neabry. Eight was all messed up and she doesn't know him, but admired him, oh, gee, let's not make him as a free for judge. Again, you know, there's a lot of of of this going on in in public trying to discredit these witnesses. Now, of course, if they're lying, of course, the judge needs to have his day on Capitol Hill and his testimony, but they to need to as everybody has said, again, you know, the politics of all this much better than I do. How do you think this will play out in the Senate Judiciary committee in the widest Senate, which has to actually vote on whether the sent Senate Judiciary committee recommends at this time, the at this time is really important this time of me, and here's what I think about seeing the president to that or any other member of congress or anyone for that matter is it harms the entire movement and women in general, feeling the confidence and the courage to come forward when you automatically say to somebody, I don't believe you know what I mean? We have members of congress who have said, I'm voting certain weight, no matter what. Well, that harms everything that we've worked so hard for over the last couple of years. And before that time, harassment is a political. You can't choose who you want to believe based on your politics. So statements that are so black and white on both sides, harm the entire movement. Because how does President Trump know what the truth is? He doesn't know. I don't know. You don't know. But to automatically come right out and say from the outset, I absolutely don't believe anyone. It's not fair to the process. I mean, the obvious question is, will this process be one that gets us to the truth? Or is it going to be a continued sort of each side will get this safe for a certain number of minutes or hours? And just to before I ask you to respond to that because the senior most leaders in the Senate saying the following the weapons, I shouldn't of unsubstantiated smears have here. Now, weaponisation of unsubstantiated smears. Well, dissuade competent and good people of all political persuasions. From service. I mean, you know, it's kind of sort of tortured logic because the whole idea is to see you know whether each side can have their say, do you think we're going to get to the truth. If it's just one witness, then one witness probably not. Because it'll go back to the. He said she said, which is why advocate in my book and everywhere that I go across the world, please try and get evidence. I know it's difficult and certainly we're talking about thirty six years ago. So there probably was no evidence, but because we're still in this culture where it is, he said, she said, having another witness would certainly help in this process. Well, I mean, they just said, no, we're not going to have that apparently that all those and bits and bobs of notes and various other parents. There's a polygraph test result that has not been admitted or or will not be allowed and the and the the Senator said, this is not the FBI job to do this kind of stuff. This is what we meant to do. You working on a particular bipartisan effort on by to address some of these issues. Tell us about it. Yes. So it's a taking away arbitration Bill that we introduced back in December and bipartisan. Imagine that wouldn't it be great if we actually did something for women together, it was introduced in the house. Senate on the same day. So it's the ending arbitration act of sexual harassment. Arbitration is a clause that has been added to millions of employment contracts in America and all around the world. And basically what happens is if you're being sexually harassed or discriminated against you have no choice, but to have your case go to arbitration. And why is that a problem with this issue? Because it's a secret chamber. So you give up your seventh amendment right here in the United States to have an open jury process. And instead you go to this land of secrecy where no one ever knows about your story. So imagine how that changes. If suddenly a woman in the workplace has voice and the perpetrator there on equal footing now, maybe the Rasmus doesn't happen to begin with or at least this person has a voice and others within the workplace. Also understand that that person has a voice and they may to come forward again because of your work on this, your experience, the fact that you took on the powerful at your own network and essentially started this whole bowl rolling. I wonder what you make of some of the men. Who being accused who are now coming forward, testing the waters to see if they can get back that reputations, their employment, their jobs, and obviously that ought to an extent certain grey areas, not everything is a an attempted rape and not everything is just a sloppy, kiss that stuff in the middle. There have been two comedians who've come out Louis c. k. and as he's sorry, and they came and did the routines and they were very open, but they didn't start by knowledge ING, the massive elephant in the room, and that's been criticized by some by by many of that, then the two others, a professor, and indeed a former radio reporter who had more serious allegations against them, and they've also come out and they've written long thousand word articles. But the criticism is being that they've just focused on themselves and the pain that they've gone through and the jobs that they've lost in the prestige that they have lost without at any point doing a massive mayor, COPA, what's what's not. I mean, the denial is still there. That's very strong. It's very strong. And my answer to that is that these men may be able to be rehabbed. I don't know, but the the discussion shouldn't automatically believe be from the beginning. Where are these men. Going to end up next. In other words, how are they going to have their careers brought back to life because you know what the focus should be. The focus should be the thousands of women and maybe millions across this world who have lost their professions because they simply had the courage to come forward and say that they were treated wrongly right now. Why aren't we giving those people back their jobs, all of those women to me, that's what the focus should be on. I've talked to thousands of these women ninety nine point, nine percent of them lost the career that they loved and the profession that they work so hard to achieve simply for having the courage to stand up and say, this happened to me and they never work again. And that is outrageous. So just remind our audience, it's in your book, you've being very public about it, and you just mentioned that right off to covering or amidst covering the hill hearings. You was sexually molested harassed. Can you tell me what happened then? And just remind us how bad it was you and the courage it took to stand up. So. When I was in my early twenties and I was with my cameraman and we were out on a sinement in a rural part of the state. And when we got back into the car, he asked me how I had liked it when he had put on my microphone and touched my breasts, and it went downhill from there. I actually envisioned myself rolling out of the car door in the passenger side just to get away like I had seen done in the movies and the the absent panic that a woman goes through when you're going through something like that, and you have no escape, but I didn't want to come forward. And so I understand completely why women don't. I didn't tell that story to anyone until I wrote my first book twenty five years later, and other assaults that had also happened to me in my twenty s so for people to say, well, women are part of the problem because they don't come forward well, why would they look what happens to women when they do? It's improved. But look what happened to me when I came forward just to. Years ago, maligned liar, just doing it to be famous and of your career potentially. So I think we need to take a long hard look about why women don't come forward and why they wait so long. Do you have any thoughts about your former boss, Bill shine being President Trump's main communications director, an adviser at this particular time, particularly since we've seen the folks news interview, I mean, maybe that was his idea could've been, you know, unfortunately, because I settlement, I can't comment on any of the employee's that used to work there. What do you think then of of what will radically change? Not just individuals situations, but just change the society. Is it what we seeing right now this sort of backlash movement of women in their hundreds unprecedented numbers in the United States running for office. For instance, in these upcoming elections, that's part of it. I think watching the Cosby verdict. For me and his sentencing, that's emotional for me. That's emotional for any woman who's ever gone through this because wow to think that that actually happened, we could've never ever predicted that, but fixing harassment in our nation and around the world is a tangled web. I wish it was just one easy solution, but it's changing laws. It's changing the way we raise our young boys. It's changing the way in which we handle it inside the workplace, making it safer for victims to want to come forward. It's changing the way we train our employees. It's changing the way the person at the top sets the tone in the company. It's changing the way that women are promoted and paid fairly and women are put in positions of power. Because guess what happens when you have more women in power? You don't have as much asthma. So it's a tangled web of all coming together to decide that we're going to fix this. And I'll finally say, men, as I said earlier, we need them. We need them to help us in every single area, and we're seeing that start, but we have a long way to go Gretchen Carlson. Thank you so much, indeed. Thank you. My name is Paul Shirley, and I've gone on a lot of dates. I've noticed something on these dates. I often find myself telling the same stories stories about my mother teaching sex Ed stories about playing college basketball stories about playing NBA basketball and almost dying in the process. We all do this. We tell stories on dates because dates or when we get to explain where we've been and what we've seen in why we think like we do my name is Paul Shirley, and I hope you'll check out my new narrative podcast stories I tell on dates, you can subscribe for free on apple podcasts or wherever you find your favorite shows. How many cats in providence head coach Ed Cooley is on March madness. Three sixty five. I'm excited about the group nervous in one fence because of our inexperience in the back court. But like our athleticism are length and toughness. Subscribe at watchman is three sixty five now at apple podcasts and Spotify. Hayes, Howard Beck, and I've got Ben Gulliver of Sports Illustrated on Bleacher reports, the full forty, eight light yu-gi-oh close police. So you really like pro violent, but what I look at what kind of a tree hugger from Oregon, right? But when I look at Lakers trading hip, it feels like the post likely place in the league that fits by. We'll break out at some point. So check out the full forty eight. Now on Bleacher report, podcasts and Spotify. Turning now to the UN general assembly here in New York, but President Trump met with these Rayleigh Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and publicly came out for a two state solution for the Palestinians and the Israelis. State solution. That's what I think. That's what I think works fast. I don't even have to speak teddy, but that's my feeling now you may have a different feeling. I don't think so. But I think two state solution works best. And with mister Netanyahu firmly in his corner, President Trump then turned on Iran warning even his allies to boycott trade with Iran or face severe consequences from the United States, Iran is still reeling from last weekend's attack of the military prayed in the city of Avaz which killed at least twenty five people and injured fifty three others, I'll Avaz yet an ethnic Arab separatist group which Tout's its links to Saudi Arabia claimed responsibility for the attack after listening to Mr.. Trump's opening speech at the UN, the Saudi Foreign Minister Abdel algebra came here to the studio to talk about that in an exclusive interview. We also talked about this strong support for President Trump's Iran policy, chances of a two state solution in the Middle East, and those rising oil prices for a minister, welcome to the program. Thank you. Don't Trump knows to broadside at OPEC countries. He called them. We'll obviously Saudi Arabia is the biggest OPEC. Country, and we're going to play a sound bite of what he said regarding high oil prices at the moment. OPEC and OPEC nations are as usual, ripping off the rest of the world. And I don't like it. Nobody should like it. We defend many of these nations for nothing. And then they take advantage of us by giving us high oil prices, not good. We want them to stop raising prices. We want them to start lowering prices and they must contribute substantially to military protection from now on. We are not going to put up with it. These horrible prices much longer. Well, I mean, Saudi Arabia's I said, is the biggest and most powerful OPEC nation. We use apprised by that. I mean, we're not gonna put up with these horrible prices any longer and accusing OPEC of being responsible for these high prices. It wasn't surprising because the president has are typically to this position before hundred is committed to balancing the markets will committed to ensuring that prices are at module level so that consumers are not hurt and producers not hurt. We have seen an increase in the demand for oil, and we're going to see a reduction in the supply of oil by Iran, and I think the markets are putting pressure on the price of oil. We have increased our oil production. We continue to increase oil production to bring more oil to the market so that we have moderate prices. See production increases in the United States. You see, production increases elsewhere. There's a commitment to stabilize markets at prices that do not harm consumers or producers. This has. Been on a policy for the last for decades, and we continue to explain this to our friends in the US and isn't it true? You just actually alluded to it that it is your friends in the US who potentially may have been responsible for this spike in prices by taking off more than a million barrels of Iran or from the market, right with the sanctions and therefore lowering the supply. I think the price of oil began to increase when the world economy began to recover the price of oil began to increase when American show production came down as a consequence of lower prices. Now, American supply is increasing and will providing more supply to the market with regards to the union sanctions. We are fully supportive of the president's policy on Iran, we believe it's the right policy, whether it involves withdrawing from the way or whether it involves imposing more sanctions on Iran to make your on comply with international laws and international behavior. So we're fully on board with that policy. That's true. Saudi Arabia has been along with Israel, the government of Benjamin Netanyahu very, very pro. Getting out of the Iran nuclear deal, which leads me to ask you because the Iranians have alluded to it and almost accused you of it somehow being behind the terrorist attack on the military parade and civilians in our vase over the weekend where dozens of people were killed, including kids. What do you make of that? It's a ridiculous charge and it's laughable charge. The Romanian regime has consistently lied about things. The Iranian regime has had very difficult. The situation internally, they have responded usually with force and brutally against their own people. Every time they have a domestic problem. They tight point the finger at others. They accused us of being responsible for their economic misery when it was mismanagement by the leadership, they accused outsiders of the the revolts that happened in two thousand nine after the Iranian regime rigged election to allow Medina giant to have a second term, they accuse others for all the problems when in fact, it is the Iranians who are interfering in their fares of other countries and Iran is the world's largest sponsor of terrorism. What about this? I was, yeah, it's an ethnic Arab separatist group with links to Saudi Arabia. They claimed responsibility. And a lot of the claims came through Saudi linked channels. I think the this is I want to say again that this is the Ron charges preposterous and outrageous. The was in on our people who have their rights tonight, they cannot learn language. They cannot practice their faith and so there there's massive discrimination against him, and there has been a opposition by the was against the regime in Iran for decades. You mentioned Yemen and the nefarious activity in Yemen. The problem is that now the Saudi campaign backed by the United States is coming under quite a lot of pressure from congress from even the president today talked about it and it sort of roundabout way, but there is a backlash against against your campaign in Yemen because CNN many other journalists everybody can see what a terrible civilian catastrophe exists there right now. It seems you call work your way out of how to stop this. Is there a plan to stop with the war and try to figure out some kind of diplomatic end to this humanitarian? Catastrophe Cousteau and this is a war that we didn't want was awarded. We didn't see it was that was imposed on us. We worked on the transition from solid who temporary government. We worked with Liam Neeson, establishing a national dialogue way. They came up with a vision for the future. They appointed a group to write a constitution, and then the who's he struck and took over the country and wanted to. Now we have a situation where a radical militia, and I'd was has been letting around is in charge of a critically important country that is enabled. Solution to the end. We have said from the beginning that this is a political that the solution has to be a political solution based on the three points of reference, the GTC initiative, the outcomes of the national dialogue Yemen, and you insecurity comes from resolution to a two one six. There have been more than seventy agreements made every single one of them who have rejected there have been peace talks held the who's who's agree, and then they could go back and remake. They have launched one hundred ninety seven ballistic missiles at Saudi Arabia, randomly at cities, terrorizing people. They have hijacked Yemen. They have laid siege on Townsend villages and let starvation. They have prevented the World Health Organization from vaccinating people for cholera, and then the world CNN included name Saudi Arabia. Something that's not fair about this Neil may not be Feb at the facts. Saudi Arabia is the big power backed by the biggest power which is the United States, and it doesn't seem to be working. You're not winning this not true, we'll be who's is used to control eighty percent of the country. Now they control us than twenty percent. Do you still feel that peace in the Middle East, the greater Middle East Gulf region wherever is very, very much tied to the Israeli Palestinian situation? Do you still believe that or is it new relevance? Now, it's everything helps the Israeli Palestinian conflict is one that permeates about the Muslim world. Every time you have radicals emerging, they claim to be doing it in order to to liberate Palestine. We have a formula for political settlement there. We just need the political will to implement it. Jared, Kushner is meant to be the guarantor the guardian of this new US peace plan. Jared, Kushner is also saying at the same time, it's kind of playing hard ball in these last couple of weeks. We've seen the United. States increase its pressure on Palestinian civilians, frankly, withdrawing money from unravel withdrawing money from sort of NGOs and little sort of Israeli Palestinians that have civilian organizations that might be able to promote a little peace and tolerance and understanding of closing down the office here in Washington, and etc, etc. Not to mention moving the embassy from from from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. They believe because they've said it that this increases the odds, this pressure of punishing. The civilians increases the odds of the Palestinians coming to the negotiating table in serious way. Is that the Saudi position, our position is that the Palestinians are the ones who have to make the decision in terms of what they accept, what they don't accept our positions that we support. The two state solution was supposed to do state within sixty seven borders with minor mutually agree to adjustments with Easter solicits capital, and we believe that be putting pressure, doesn't work that it has to be of caught cooperative approach, and we're hoping that we can turn around the situation of mistrust that now exists between the US independent authority so that they can focus on building towards peace. See there's a, there's a thought that's running around Washington, which is that at this moment. Now with President Trump with your global attempt twice late and whatever we can Iran that Saudi Arabia's interest is in moving closer to the Israeli government Benjamin Netanyahu further away from the Palestinian cause even the Israeli ambassador to Washington, Ron, Ron Dermot says he sends his a change among Arab countries towards Israel saying that you all quote no longer dancing reflexively to the Palestinian Choon. Is that correct? I think that may be an exaggeration. We have no relations with Israel. Our position on the peace process is clear. The position our position on Iran is very clear and the fact that these release see it in similar term does not mean that allies. What is it means that we will. Work at the expense of the Palestinian cost for us. We have said time and time. Again, the number one issue is Palestine. His badge, it's taking some lung disease named the last hour summit the Jerusalem summit. We tripled our support with the Palestinian Authority be gave one hundred fifty million dollars to Islamic institutions in Jerusalem of trusts. We are. We provided fifty million dollars to unravel in order to make up the gap in deficit. We continued to what the person would you say, GIO friends, the United States, who are your friends, then the Trump administration supports you and you are supporting them even though by the way Chas Freeman a former US ambassador to Syria, who said recently to Newsweek that as a result of the joint combined Obama Trump sort of withdrawal from activity in the Middle East. That Saudi Arabia does not. The United States as reliable protect anymore. We're going to be that no ups with to not that I don't believe that the Trump administration is disengaged from the Middle East, quite the contrary wants you to pay more the you. So the sound we have. I don't believe that this was directed at us. We have been always paid our fair share since the beginning of our relationship with the US when we have we believe in burden-sharing and we believe in making sure that we care, we pay on Wayne, we carry on cost. Two state solution is closer or further away. Now we have to always be hopeful that everything is possible. This is the longest running conflict to them, at least and resolving it on a fair and equitable basis is going to help stay place region and help remove an issue that has been taken advantage of by radicals. Every coup d'etat that was staged in the world was staged in the name of liberating Palestine. All the terrorist organizations. Many of them that emerged emerge under the pretext of wanting to support Palestine, nets. Eliminate this problem. Understand that does President Trump really get it. Do you think solution involves moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? For instance, these these tactics and the way I see it as they moved to embassy to west Jerusalem extent that the boundaries of Jerusalem might be determined in final status talks. And they said that the status of the holy sites remains as is which basically means they don't recognize this really sovereignty over east Jerusalem. The recognize it of restaurants, west through system is not occupied territory that me then move onto something that the world is really watching and that is. You and I go back a long time to the first Gulf war. When the US I came to defend Saudi Arabia against Saddam Hussein. And at that time, there were in fact demonstrations by women, very tame inside parking, lots at supermarkets, not even outside to drive, and now the crown prince has allowed it and it's happening. How far is this going to go? We've got cinemas it open for the first time in thirty five years. We've got. Local elections that women can stand for, but how far will you go? Because women are also really upset about the guardianship nor, for instance, they can't basically go to a shop without the male relatives, permission pink this, the changes that are happening as hundred, amazing the ideas to proclaim lives to introduce a culture of innovation and progress, and you can't do that if your company country is not part of it. So women have to have their rights and women have to be put Spence in our society. We now have a women hosts, he of some of our largest banks and companies. We have increased quite cessation of women in the workforce, and we continue to push to add to that the cinemas in the entertainment and the and the driving our our secondary issues, but they're important signals this society is moving forward. The guidance chip system, I think, has been exaggerated. Women can now go get jobs, they consume. A coordinate view respect. He well, let's go take a look at south human, ask them and see when you say they can't go to the shop without their Milton Bishen. That's not true. You know what I'm saying? They can't go to leave the country. They can't do important things drive take a trip across the border. I mean, they can't do a lot of things without that husband or if they don't have a husband. The guardianship system would have the perception of zigzag rated. There are certain some restrictions, and I believe it's a matter of time, but I think the way people describe it today is busting exaggerated to that point. It does seem a little bit one step forward. One step back because even just as the driving band was being lifted quite a lot of female activists were in fact arrested. And in fact, one of them she's well. She's a sheer activist and she potentially faces the death penalty for protests related charges. These may not be about driving, but other kind of political protests. The world meant to make of that. Christian. I think the the, the notion that these activists and they were arrested in because they're activists is not correct. The public prosecutor said that the charges are ready to to national security that charges every day to to working with foreign governments, trying to relate to working with people who seek to undermine the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. There charges were related to trying to recruit people in sensitive positions in order to extract information from the then pass pass on the hostile powers and those charges are being investigated. Some of them have been released. Others will face trial when they go to trial, the world will know what the charges are in the world. We'll see the evidence. So the idea that these were activists that were arrested because their support lem driving this ridiculous did say they probably necessarily weren't. These these, but previous ones were protesting for more for more freedoms around the driving band, and they were arrested and put in, but not for that reason this not about human rights or or seeking writes, this wrestled about national security. On that note, I did algebra. Thank you very much for joining me. Well, it was a pleasure. So going back now to the issue that we discussed their US-backed war in Yemen and Saudi Arabia's widely criticised role in the ongoing human suffering that our next guest gives us a look at the cost of Yemen's bloody conflict. David Miller band was the British Foreign Secretary. But for the past five years, he's been head of the International Rescue Committee and he told our Hari Sreenivasan what he learned from his own trip to Yemen and how the world is failing its refugees. David Midland, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. You were just in Yemen. Impressions is the world's worst humanitarian crisis according to the statistics, and it's heartbreaking when you see it with your own eyes. I mean, this is a country which was always poor. It's got real stress from climate change, but three and a half years of war eighteen thousand bombing. Raids have left a country where eighty percent of the population depend on humanitarian aid where half the population have no access to clean drinking water, where we're three million kids are out school and where the world saw the the largest ever cholera epidemic. Last year, a million people affected and I got this terrible sense that things are more likely to get worse than better fighting. Looks like it's going to intensify in this critical port city of Hodeida. I got within fifty kilometers of it, and that is the port, it's in the north west of the country seventy to eighty percent of all humanity. Terriers supplies and commercial supplies go through the and that is the center of the fighting at the moment between the Saudi led coalition to reestablish control for the heavy government and the who the rebels who took power in two thousand fifteen, and there's been a challenge getting humanitarian aid. There's an folks that there's a choke the and we have good stuck in port. We have the the UN calculates a fraction of the food of the medicines that need to get through are getting through a despite the fact that the port of her Deidra still open Saana airport, which is key for commercial operations is closed, and this war is a stalemate, frankly, because neither side is advancing its position. The only people thriving in the kale saw extremist groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS and the victims all the supports villains of Yemen, seven and a half thousand of them directly killed in the fighting you. You reported last month of this appalling. Bombing or missile attack on the coach of forty plus kids, and then you the wider ramifications for society that frankly, on the edge of meltdown, how can it be a stalemate? It seems like on the one side, the Saudi side, which the US supports his lopsidedly better armed what's lopsidedly strong. It's total monopoly of AB power, but as any conflict asymmetric conflict, the the rebel group, the who 'this who took power on Doug in that dug into the cities, the dug into Sunol the dug into data, and you can't bomb your way to victory against an occupying force on the ground and the Saudi led coalition for obvious reasons. Don't want to fight street by street through data, the port in the city and the who know that. And the terrible thing is that the pain is being felt by the civilians as a u n envoy that extremely experienced British. Diplomat mounting, Griffith. He needs a ceasefire. The allows the humanitarian aid to go through the allows the commercial traffic to be reestablished. And that gives him space to try to broker an enduring peace. D do the Yemenis know that. The world is watching to. They feel like the world is not watch that they won't the world's wake up, but they do know that there's American bombs dropping on them as we drove from Saana to Hodeida. The checkpoints manned sometimes by child soldiers, but sometimes bows one of the kids Johnson as we went through in the UN landcruiser death to America because they say America's bringing death to us, and that is of gives light the idea that what starts into Yemen stays in Yemen. This is how Yemen becomes a center of radicalization that can go further. And this war is making no progress. That's this. I'm not coming on this program to say it's you the costs of a war too high because of the humanitarian cause I'm telling you the coastal to high in humanitarian terms. The was Ladas humanitarian crisis and in geopolitical terms because this is not a war that anyone is winning is a. Oh, lose no-win war, and it's going to take bold leadership to say, we need a ceasefire. We create the space for a political settlement. What is the responsibility of the US in getting to that settlement? I think it's high. I mean, the US is a permanent member of the US announced it's the most most powerful member of the UN Security Council. It's the leading backer of the Saudi led coalition the above. This isn't just about the Trump administration either is important that people understand in two thousand fifteen, the UN pasta resolution which frankly was a cop 'blanche for war, not a road map to peace. It was unbalanced resolution and it came at the time when the Obama administration wanted to reassure the Saudis that they had that back when they were doing the Iran nuclear deal was a pale for the Iran nuclear deal. In some ways we need to start again because it's not the basis for the kind of political settlement. The comp. Flex society like Yemen needs. There are some that you, you've got Syria. You've got the row hinge you've got people migrating out of Venezuela, right? I mean, there are there are my gracious happening all over the world refugees being created by different causes, but it seems the world is on the move in certain way that different. 'cause I mean, the causes conflict. I mean, the biggest driver of extreme poverty today is conflict and some of that scene in the internal displacement. Some of it in refugee flows. The world is on the move for economic reasons which is a different to do with immigration, but it's on the move because of a failure of peacemaking. You've got fragile states that con- contain the ethnic political religious differences that exist within the Mehan. Mom would be a good example of that. That's where the Hinga seven hundred thousand fled across the border into Bangladesh. You've got chew malt inside the Islamic inside significant policy limit world Afghanistan. Syria, big flows of refugees, and you've got a weak and divided into national political system in which the US I'm sorry to say is in retreat the western pounds or in retreat. The POWs of traditionally, at least in word upheld human rights alongside state's rights as the foundation of the international system. Those powers are in retreat and into the vacuum. You've got all sorts of acts as moving Russia moves in to the Syria theater Al Qaeda and ISIS move in in parts of Yemen that I was talking about earlier and this retreat from global engagement under the excuse quote, unquote. All politics is local is dangerous in a world that's more connected than ever before because what starts in Syria doesn't stop in Syria. What start starts in Yemen doesn't stop in part of the Trump. Administration's rationale is listen. Let the rest of the world start picking up some of the slack. We've done our more than our fair share. Maybe we need to focus on our own problems. What does nothing to stop you fixing the bridges and epaulets of New York because you're also doing active diplomacy around the world. Walking and chewing gum at the same time is meant to be started here, and the truth is European countries together. Now spend more on humanitarian aid in America. That's a big change. And the danger is that what Richard Haass the president of the council on foreign relations hit Kohl's the abdication est foreign policy. The retreat from global leadership. The retreat from a rules based international. The great danger is that far from serving America's interests that retreat actually compromises those interests did it makes us more at risk amazing of honorable and also exposes your allies. I put it this way. You can't have the blessings of globalization unless you willing to bad the responsibilities, the burdens of globalization. And so what I would like to see President Trump and his administration, recognizing that find America first. But America I is not served by American retreat. There seems to be an anti refugee movement that's happening, not just in the US but across Europe as well, much more talk of walls, much more talk of borders than bridges. That's a good point. And there's a lesson in the country that are actually hosting refugees. I mean where the most refuge. One percent in the wolves refugees in America, six or eight percent in Europe. AT six percent of the wolves refugees are in developing countries. So Bangladesh when those seven hundred thousand Ringo would driven out minima Bangladesh didn't say, we'll build a wall. They said, well, we're, we're going to look off these people, Kenya. When a million people came from south Sudan, Sudan over the laws often build a wool. They said it could have been us will look after these people. So you'll right to say the in the countries that created the UN refugee convention in nineteen fifty. One US UK off to the second mode will there's a retreat from the values that led to that long period of peace and prosperity, but that doesn't make it right. And I would say one other thing that's going to be careful on this. It's true that the administration here is reducing drastically. The number of refugees were allowed to come in the last week. There was a secretary pump is that it was what the cap is going to be. Thirty thousand the lowest since the refugee act went into effect exempt. What nineteen eighty? Exactly. So the historic average was nineteen. Thousand refugees are arriving to the US. I mean, a small proportion of the twenty five million refugees around the world. They've slashed it to thirty thousand. In fact, this year there's any Twenty-one thousand refugees being not so America retreating from its global responsibility, but we as well as being an international humanitarian aid agency. We resettle refugees the small number of refugees who are allowed to come and the American spirit when a refugee arrives next door is to go out and help them. It's not actually to be fearful, and America has a proud tradition of being a home for a few days. My organization, the International Rescue Committee was founded here in New York by Albert Einstein who was a refugee, he was stuck in America. When Hitler came to power in Germany, couldn't go back. He was Jewish delay, chill, and so that proud bipartisan tradition is under threat. And that doesn't serve America's interests. You're a child of refugees, Charles, right with my parents were lucky because they were allowed into the UK. My dad was allowed in the UK and nine hundred fourteen my mom in nineteen forty six. So I, I know refugee myself, but I was a child refugees and I think that's as it changed the way you look at this work well, I think it I suddenly feel that when I have someone say I fled my country when it was invaded, I think of my dad when I hit people say, I mean hiding, I think of my mom, so I don't want to put myself on a pedestal in any way, but it's maybe a different religion that these people have got these days. They don't Jewish like me. They might be Muslim Amal. They might be actually the number of Christians who being allowed minority Christmas will being allowed into the US salsa being slashed, so it's not just the Muslim populations being talked. So the religion may be different than mine the region of the world maybe different. But the sense of fellow feeling is strong. One of the things that you're working on along with the sesame. To me workshop is creating an education infrastructure. You were both ward at one hundred million dollar grant from the MacArthur foundation. What are you working on? What are you doing wit what? King to address something really telling a child who is traumatized by war and forced to flee the country suffers. What's cool, toxic stress that's affecting the the damage to the brain that comes from being exposed to traumatic experiences. And we're working with sesame workshop because we've shown between the two of us that we can reverse that toxic stress. If you get to those kids early enough, you can help them. So for children between the ages of zero and eight in the Middle East in Jordan and Lebanon in Iraq, and actually inside Syria itself a with setting up a program to reverse the effects of that toxic stress to help at one point, four million children in by visiting them in that tents in there. Inao homes and they're. Well, with the with, yes. Yeah. But with with educational material that includes a sesame guards includes a special new version of Sesame Street that will reach far more than the one point, four million about seven point, nine million. It's a five year program, so it's not the short termism that you went up present quick fix, but with promising that evidence based systematic engagement can actually rescue generation rather than leave them on their own. As we looked across the world. This is a generation of young people when they're in these refugee situations, education stops. Yeah, his isn't that a scandal, the cough, the world's refugees, a kids and two percent of the world's humanitarian budget goes on education. What a stupid thing to do, not just in an immoral thing to do, is there a refugee crisis that we are not paying attention to? That's not gathering the headlines in a way. All of them are not gathering that. Now you mentioned the Ringo which then right? You know about Syria. You've mentioned Yemen. I would mention a couple. Places that are more poor people extremely poor people in Nigeria than in India. Today that's a transformation in the situation. The world, the world has set these sustainable development goals to a radical extreme poverty by twenty thirty, the places where it's not being radicalized that the places affected by violence. I'm by conflict in northeast Nigeria on the border with Cameroon and nesia around the Lake Chad basin. That's a massive displacement. Crisis caused by group called book-aholic him, which he'll know about. So that doesn't get much attention goes to the heart of this question. The geography of poverty is being changed around the world. I'm not going to meet the sustainable development goal of a radical global poverty of extreme poverty unless we get to grips with the failure of diplomacy that is leading to more people fleeing conflicts than ever before David Miller band of the IRC. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you very much. And really fascinating to hear these two juuling and diverging views of what's happening in Yemen and also about US leadership. I from the Saudi foreign minister and now from the former British Foreign minister is David Miller band really interesting. And just a final note tomorrow I'll show will end later on CNN as the network covers the live hearings of Christine, blazey Ford and Brad Kavanagh on Capitol Hill. We'll have all those developments and we'll also have my interview with the president of Colombia where a peace process hangs in the balance and cocaine production is soaring, but that's it for our program. Now, thanks for watching. Remember you could always listen to a podcast and see us online at Amman dot com. And of course you can follow me on Facebook incident, goodbye, Neil.

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Amanpour: Keith Scholey, Sophie Lanfear, Michael Holmes and Priscilla Chan

Amanpour

1:00:10 hr | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Keith Scholey, Sophie Lanfear, Michael Holmes and Priscilla Chan

"This CNN podcast is brought to you by American Express, my credit guide a free credit score. And report and other tools to help you take charge of your credit. Your credit score is greater than a number. It's your story. Hi podcast listeners today. Climate protests are happening just outside our office here in London and actually around the world, and we have correspondent Michael Holmes out on the streets for us talking to the activists and the leaders about their cause I'm also joined by producer and director of the new Netflix series our planet. It is voiced by the legendary naturalist David Attenborough. We talk about why we need to act now for climate and our planet. Then how did we get to this point the author? Nathaniel ridge takes us back through the politics of climate change denial in the United States. And Harry's in San Diego token to present a Chon one half of the Chans Aqaba initiative with her husband monks, Kabar about education reform, and Facebook's taxes. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour. In London wished today has been clogged up by a movement gaining critical. Momentum is called extinction rebellion thousands of people in eighty eight cities across the globe blocking roads and slowing down traffic in order to speed up government action to stop climate change. Their rebellion is against the extinction of our species. It's motivated by the science which says that we have until twenty thirty just eleven years to save ourselves from a catastrophic rise in global temperatures due to untrammelled carbon emissions perhaps the most famous leader of these new wave climate protesters is the sixteen year old Swedish schoolgirl, Greta Thon, who's eating hundreds of thousands of students in cities around the world on Friday, school strikes and rallies together. These protests a paying off pushing climate change up the political agenda and making politicians talk about green policies. In ways, they haven't done before from the grassroots up now while the young putting their parents and grandparents generations on notice an elder statesman is also fighting this good fight the world renowned ninety two year old naturalist, David Attenborough. He's brought us the world's beauty for decades. But now his new Netflix series. Our planet is a rallying cry for urgent action. Take a look at this trailer. This is the story. The car changing. And what we can do to help it thrive. Tired? Beautiful, isn't it? And highly endangered joining me now two of the people who made this wake up call a reality Keith Scully as a series producer for our planet. And so few Lanphier directed some of the episodes, welcome to the program. Thanks for being here. I guess just want to ask you first sort of describing your words your mission. We're sort of putting words in your mouth, but this is a different series. It's got a point of view. It takes a stand. You're definitely I think we've all been in the wildlife filmmaking business for a long time. And we've seen that things are increasingly becoming more urgent to do something about it. So this series. We definitely wanted to show people the wonders of our world because we've still got them, but they are going very very fast. And it's yet to wake up call. Let's we have to do something. Now, if we're going to keep it, and after you've got to keep the whole buzz fair functioning as we've had from for millennia, and you've been doing this in various different platforms and ways for for for many years. And worked with David at Bremen, just before I go to one of the clips, what is it? So few for you that so important about his voice and him putting all his experience behind this. I think David I mean, like no one else in the industry. He's a trusted voice with no agenda, actually. And I think that's what makes them more powerful on his genuine passion. David theme. Passion, passionate personal the planet when it comes to natural world, and he inspired all of us. Inspire me to get into mattress g filmmaking. So having him kind of wasted series is a stamp of authority on it. Right. So I'm going to play a clip, and we don't often give you as warnings about clips on the natural world. But we do have to in this case because it is a really tragic demonstration of what the current environment is doing to wall russes going to play it takes place on the Arctic circle around Russia's that. Right. Okay. So we'll play it. And then we'll talk to you. And you're you are also visible in this. Behind the scenes that will show you. On right on the edge. Two or three hundred ten. Off mall such pitcher that resulted from three hundred miles now to get to food then coming back here to see any place asleep east stayed on the ice dive down eight foods, even the is easy. I mean, so you're the director you were talking there with the cameraman. I guess how was it to see the had you ever seen that kind of situation before? No. I mean, even now watching it every time it gets me. We went to that location expecting to maybe a bit of tumbling down some shallower verges, and maybe some polar bears -tracting, I never I mean. I was totally shocked. I didn't realize they could climb eighty meter cliffs, and then we watched them many hours on the top. And we're just pretty shell shocked when we saw the first ones deciding to go back to the sea and Mukhin off there in a cord, and it was I mean, it was devastating. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to witness just expanded you, call them Arctic refugees. Just explain why they they climbed up and why they fell down they live on the CIA normally so they they feed on these continental shelves off Alaskan and Russian coasts and sea ice as a platform. So they can rest on the ice. And then they dive down feet and the bottom, and then they rest. Akl now is in between dives. But in recent years, the optics undergone rapid sea ice loss in the summer months. And what that meant is it's retreat too far north now so the closest pace to rest rather than the ice is the land. So what you're seeing these haul out sites that call where they come to rest on shore becoming much more overcrowded, and there's a lot less space, and in this particular site, we filmed at that meant that they went up these cliffs, and then when they want to return to the see they fell so it really really is tragic. I mean, this this episode actually went viral the scenes went viral. We've had some viewer response. One. One viewer said episode two of our planet is one of the most upsetting things I've ever seen. If you get through the last ten minutes without committing to real change to tackle climate change, your inhuman is that the response that you want is that what you're looking for here. It absolutely is almost see we thought deeply about showing these image. Ages because they are obsessing. But so I'm in a wave, I we just felt the world needs to know. This is what's happening people talk about climate change. If it's something of the future. It's not it's happening in the all tickets big time now and animals are suffering, and we have to show it we do about response. I want to play this little bit of an issue. I did with David Attenborough during the last climate conference, not so many months ago, but to your point that people don't know what's going on in a lot of the what they think they do. But they don't know. This is what he addressed. I think that the condition of the what the earth is facing has never been visible to a large proportion of the world's population. And it's the responsibility of people who do the sort of what could I do to make sure that one is happening is visible to people mind, they know, but is also visible to the people who have their fingers on power, both political power and fiscal power monetary power to do something about this situation. It is quite dramatic to hear him say that because for a long time he was a naturalist. He didn't really weigh in on the on the climate change aspect of it, certainly not on the political aspect of it. Tell you tell me what this means to have somebody this important actually weigh in on this aspect of it not just on the beauty of our world Beardsley important. And I mean, David he carries the burden that anything he says is truth. And he's very aware of that that if David Attenborough says something the world takes it as the truth. So he's always have to be very careful to make sure news needs to be sure of his facts. But I think he's come to the point now where he is very very sure what's happening. And he's being very outspoken about it and is having a huge impact. I mean loss just last week. We were the IMF talking to Bank we were at the World Bank. And David was talking about these things to the most important bind cousin. Finance people in the world that has impact. And when you're out there so fee, and you realize that people like David Attenborough, and you all kind of have to convince many world leaders that they have to actually do something. I mean, you're doing something now in order to try to push the needle to significant change in action by governments when you out there. How do you feel about those people in that ivory towers, maybe not believing it and thinking is all a host? We have some worldly to say. It's hard to it's hard to fathom that when you're in the field feeling it and you'll connected with it. And you know, we'll very passionate about they're not true Weldon about what we're seeing. When you come across the story, not worse. I mean, it's so the empirical evidence is just so far waited I didn't think you know, ninety five percent of the academic community. Now in agreement the IP IPCC report, it says that comet change is happening. The sea ice is losing rapidly in the Arctic and so. Yeah. I I don't understand how we should be setting about putting efforts into how do we change is? What can we do rather than contesting? Whether is happening is happening. That's just get almost solving it. I'm gonna play you talked about the you're in Greenland, I think and and these massive glaciers or by Spurs were busy cracking up and play a little bit of this. And there's a huge noise. And we'll talk about it. The last twenty years Greenland has been losing. Nice. And the rate of loss is excelling Latam. Mm-hmm. So it's obviously a hugely impressive sight and sound how long did it take you to to to to find that episode? What did it feel and sound like for you who are actually there? It was like a ball. It was a tragic casualties. But it it sounded like gunshots. Cannon fi was so loud. When that piece broke off seven climate of front of gossiping imagine seven inches long. And when it breaks off half Clemente is underneath the water. So in that tilts back and flips up, and it's all about water and all the ice is breaking up. And it's you can't. I mean, you can't convey Scott bigger than skyscrapers coming to the surface and just bouncing around and new feel so small and in significant, and then you realize the power of the planet the power of this ice and changes going on a huge. You know, it's funny. You say is not as tragic in terms of casualties, but it will be if the seas rise and all the low lying cities, and many many even the US military very very concerned about that. I just wonder what you think about. Net. Flicks going through all the series and actually tweeting out posting warnings to viewers particularly to animal lovers that. If you feel that you can't watch certain scenes at this point. And this point this point turn away. What is the point of that does that sort of defeat the purpose? I think that natural history firms are there for everyone. So that therefore families for young children. And I think it's only right that that people should know that there are some places where we have decided to show distressing images about what's happening to the natural. This is a deviation. Probably from they've previously been used to. So I think they they probably made the right coal. But interestingly, I I don't know. I was just really stunned to see all these young kids on marches, Greta Thon, burgers. We mentioned the sixteen year old kids even younger who are being taken by their parents to these marches now in various cities, it's. Seems like it's the young ones who are going to push the older generation to some kind of action or lab -solutely. And and they are going to we we're only looking at a time scale over twenty years before things get ready ready, very difficult, and this is in bad lifetimes. And it's it's strange moment. Where all that this generation knows everything about the problem, and is the only generation that can fix it. Could you stand by for a second? I'll reporter Michael Holmes is out there in the streets with all these people who've come into the streets, and I'm gonna ask him to just walk us through four. Just settle this young generation Michael you're there in the streets of London. There's been quite a few protesters, and they're trying to blow grows. What are you hearing from the young people and from the organizes? You know, the city well and see Oxford circus one of the busiest intersections in all of London blocked off for what seven hours now completely blocked off and not just Oxford circus, mob lodge, parliament square, Waterloo bridge and the ordinary turn out. It's being remarkably plays in terms of the atmosphere here, very relaxed, and that includes the police as well who staying well back making no moves on this protest. Let's give you a bit more of an idea of what's behind this. And what the I want to bring in dump the Rupert read from the university of East Anglia a spokesman for extinction rebellion and doctor first of all tell me, do you think this protest or protests like this could be a tipping point for action on climate? You've got about ten thousand people today. This isn't just a much known by direct action permission to be we just blocking shutting down big areas of central London. I'm going to be back tomorrow and the day office Maura and they offer that this rebellion. We actually mean it stinks. She rebellion. We are saying that the government is no longer legitimate. They are sending a sound power, which will lead to the collapse of our society. If that isn't righted within the Nazi this teacher. So yeah, I think it can work. It's before in other countries brought down the radical regimes. This may not get radical regime. That's commuting the destruction. That right. Tell me the thing that struck me about the protest today is the use these young people here there are other people as well, then mainly Boston's already young people to the role of used in this movement, just not fed up with the older people. Of course, the us. The youth are the ones who are absolutely in the firing line yet. Gene. So hugely inspired by the climate's strikes all around the world, and what they say the young striker's on those demonstrations face eight save our world's save our world. Well, that's what we're trying to step up and say, yeah, we're going to try to work together to stay this world bad than anyone. I'm kate. I'm worried about this. I'm worried about my own to I'm worried about your future about all of us unless you get our act together like eight eighteen months than the UN sexy. General tells us we're not gonna make those targets the UN say we have to make by twenty thirty. And if you don't do that, we're all on the roads addition, Dr Rupert read from the university of East Anglia joining us to give you a sense of the importance how they see this unfolding Christiane. The police has said Thang way back. They say they want to be here for days even say they want to be here. A couple of weeks. It's hard to imagine a place like Oxford circus shut down for that long. As I say, absolutely no move by police so far on these demonstrators, Michael and you guessed Rupert. Thank you so much. It's definitely sending a strong signal. Thank you for joining us from the streets of London, of course, bad to you Keith. And Sophie, this has been going on around the world and actually millions of becoming out over the last month of these school protests in various in the United States. Well, interestingly the series talks about humans, right? I mean, it's Omni present, but they're the invisible villain in your series. And I say that because you really focus on humans. But what happens when humans are no longer around. So I wanna play this clip, which is about Chenobyl, which famously in the eighties. There was a massive meltdown of the nuclear plant there, and the whole thing was irradiated people couldn't live and live couldn't live, etc. Etc. Cut today. Unprotected human being constructed here for long without a risk. But in driving us out the radiation has created space for wildlife to reach. The dramatic recolonisation of Chernobyl in the space of thirty years is proof of forests extraordinary resilience. So that is really dramatic. I mean, I remember as a young news person reporting on that meltdown. The scientists say that it's uninhabitable by humans for the next twenty thousand years, and yet here you have these resilient forest growing. It's not a very happy hopeful sign about us. Humans is it. Now, it's snow, but it is it. It is a great lesson that nature is very resilient. And if you leave nature line it'll bounce back. And I think the message we want to give all planet is that we still have a loss of nature. It's under remorse assault, and it's not helping us all nature. If you just leave it alone, though, it'll come back, and that you novel story basically had to leave the line because we had to get out. We cannot withstand the radiation. But most of nature can and. And say bounces by just how did you film that? I mean, it looks like it's drones from above. Right. Did you get down and dirty? You can put crews in for a few days the cruise most of it was. Yeah. Not going to. Most most of it, though, we we put these remote cameras that are triggered by movement. And we put them all age novel. And then when a wolf for presents he's holes, or what have you went policy triggered the camera? We got the shot. And so that's how we revealed the natural world that with the camera crews in the field. I mean, what what toll does it have on all of you and on the cruise? I mean, you really do have to go to these places in extremists stay for a long time to capture it happening. It doesn't just happen on Q like a Hollywood movie, and there's so much of asleep beauty, but also massive trauma in seeing the destruction. Well, we really I mean, we work with the world's best. And I think we will have the same ambition with our planet that we've always wanted to make conservation series. You know, that's something. I had have conservation, it's heart. And I think when you get teams like that together, and you would explaining how these ecosystems. Function and how they work. And then the main problem is, and then how we can solve that everyone was really behind that. So I think you know, when you come across something like wars in the field. It's not in vain, you feel that the series like this on Netflix global that we can these thing and everyone was really revved up by that. And you did shoot quite a load of behind the scenes one of the things that sort of distinguishes the the series and David numbers other series. Is you get the last few minutes talking to the crews, and that's not just a vanity project for them. It really does tell the world how and why and the and the feelings how'd you get all of that from them. I think we try to shoot it. So that it's genuine and into the moment. I mean, we don't wanna have contrived kind of scenes, but I think what you don't get from the main series is you don't get the links you go to in the cruise Goto. And you know, the the Siberian Tigers the pro cameraman was stuck in the heightened guessing shot, but the camera traps did and so. I think if you don't show the pine the scenes people might not have the true Chretien of what it takes to get these. And finally, we haven't been able to show bits from every episode, obviously. But the fact that this is on Netflix in the United States, of course. But around the world. Is a big deal. Right. It's a kind of a game changer. It's extrordinary because we've gone to label instantly. But the great thing is the shows of there all the time, and we have a really big website called all planet dot com, which can talk to the series. And so if the viewer wants to know more about a particular episode, they can go on the website find out more, but that might stimulate and then to go back to the series. So we hope that we will start a conversation with the audience about the most important thing on nature and a notion conversation, indeed Kice goalie and Sophie Lanphier, thank you so much indeed for being here. Your credit score is greater than a number. It's your story. Whether you're buying that classic convertible you've always dreamed of getting a loan to finally launch your cat translating or plying for your first place without roommates American Express. My credit guide is more than just a free credit score. It's a tool to help you write your next chapter with a detailed credit report alerts to help detect identity theft and other information to help you take charge of your credit. American Express, my credit guide provides the vantage score three point. Oh by trans union. Go to American Express dot com slash Mike credit guide to enroll today. Your credit score is greater than a number. It's your story in two thousand fourteen my then fiance, and I we're feeling a little restless, and we really wanted an adventure. So after our wedding we set out on a cross country honeymoon pretty good credit score. We've bought this. Awesome. Are the on earth? RV? Life was the life for us today with credit score of seven fifty seven. We're able to prepare for the next phase of our lives. And our biggest adventure is just around the corner. American Express, my credit guide is more than just a free credit score. It's a tool to help you write your next chapter with a detailed credit report alerts to help detect identity theft and other information to help you take charge of your credit. American Express, my credit guide provides the vantage score three point. Oh by trans union. Go to American Express dot com slash Mike credit guide to enroll today. Your credit score is greater than a number. It's your story. So me and my wife took over her dad's grocery store, we turned it into a cafe, but it flocked we have three ice cream machines at home. So why not make nice green? We can make flavors spire by culture. And with the score of seven thirty two. We knew that this was a perfect time to open our Caribbean creamery. American Express, my credit guide is more than just a free credit score. It's a tool to help you write your next chapter with a detailed credit report alerts to help detect identity theft and other information to help you take charge of your credit. American Express, my credit guide provides the vantage score three point. Oh by trans union Votto, American Express dot com slash Mike credit guide to enroll today. So just a note dramatic, please from politicians about the dangers of time it change, and nothing you you might remember the world's first underwater cabinet meeting way back in two thousand nine held by the Maldives President to highlight the threat of rising sea levels to islands like his now, the president of the Seychelles another low-lying archipelago has taken a leaf out of that book, delivering an impassioned plea to protect the beating blue heart of our planet from inside a submersible four hundred feet below the surface of the Indian Ocean, amazing amazing peaches that but here's a question few as one of the world's biggest polluters. Why does the United States also embrace a policy of climate denial ISM, or at least the Republican party does President Trump pulled the United States out of the Paris climate accords. And he's high to form a goat cold obvious to head up is Environmental Protection Agency. My next guest says this is nothing new in American politics in his. Bestselling book losing earth off in Faneuil. Rich has been tracking the process of climate change climate change denial over the past forty years. And he's joining me now from Louisiana Nathaniel rich, welcome to the program. Thanks for you heard all the conversations you've seen how the the youth and the and those who claim to be rebels now are taking to the streets. Take us now back to the beginning of this. Why is the United States sort of an outlier when it comes to this almost official policy in in the Republican party of climate denial ISM? Yeah. It's remarkable. Especially given the fact that as early as nineteen seventy nine we had total scientific consensus on the fundamental science of climate change, not just within the scientific community, but at the highest levels of the US government, the intelligence agencies, and of course, the oil and gas industry, and you're the first efforts on this the story of of losing earth of a handful of people scientists and activists a few political bureaucrats who tried to move from the sort of scientific are can of theory to action and over the course of the decade seventy nine to eighty nine. It was not a partisan issue. There were setbacks. But by the end of the decade, they'd moved it to the threshold of a of a solution. Or as what they thought was a solution a binding treaty to reduce emissions that would have been signed by every country in the world. But at the very last minute the US dropped out. Out. And in retrospect, that's about the closest we've gotten since then. But that that is also the moment at which the oil and gas industry started to work on this propaganda and influence campaign that we are still in the grips of forty years later. To to to sort of explain this because there's also forms the heart of your book, you've just talked about the industry and indeed in the late eighties. The American Petroleum Institute started actually paying certain scientists to write up heads that that question global warming. So how did that work and how did that gain traction then in the mainstream? Yeah. It's it's a remarkable story. And and, you know, the the director of environmental unit at API told me all of this. When I was as doing my research that in eighty nine as it seemed that there was there was short to be some kind of regulatory policy and some kind of global treaty the industry started to figure out what it's public stance should be. And they put together a working group and the conclusions at first were essentially, you know, we should talk about the uncertainty in the science where where it exists. They weren't yet saying that the whole science wasn't certain, and we should make sure that no policy we endorse no policy that affects the bottom line. That's the beginning of it. And they start to find a few scientists, and it's a very small few. It's about three or four people originally who are close to the industry and can be trusted to right at Oriels often for a fee two thousand. Pop at the time and start to speak to reporters. And all of a sudden in issue that at that point was gaining a huge amount of attention nationally, and was not there weren't two sides to it. Everyone was just concerned and trying to figure out what to do about it in nineteen ninety start to see pieces that are articles in national publications that question whether the sciences so established, and that's the very beginning of it. But then the industry almost seemed surprised by how successful this effort is. And they keep pushing it and over the course of the ninety s they go farther and farther and more and more brazen until you get to this this sort of delirium now where yes in entire political party questions the fundamental science of climate change, which the fundamental science which goes back long before nineteen seventy nine into the nineteen th century. I mean, you know, you talk about even now even now the oil companies aunt as far into climate denial. As the Republican party is. But interestingly in in the audible, you wrote about this led to your book 'Europe juuling those years. In other words, the ones you're talking about seventies, etc. Conditions for success could not have been more favorable the obstacles, we blamed for current in action had yet to emerge almost nothing stood in our way, except our selves. So I again, how did this little handful of people who okay, they were being pushed it'd been paid couple of thousand for these pets. How did they get such a momentum and such a tipping point that journalists were able began to treat on the one hand on the other hand? Yeah. Well, they moved incrementally. And I should say that the treaty itself fell apart the framework for the treaty which will later be the Rio summit nineteen Eighty-nine independently of industry efforts that that had to do with chief of staff of George H W Bush, John sununu who sort of the the the original skeptic became skeptic of the science skeptic of the politics, and he won out political dogfight within the White House about whether to accept a binding treaty. And so that's the beginning of it. But then soon thereafter industries start spending a fortune t- tried to block anything approaching regulatory policy. So they're two things. We're talking about one is our failure before nine hundred eighty nine to generate the kind of public support an urgency necessary to force the issue politically. But then from. Eighty nine to the present. You have this vice grip of industry on the Republican party and to to a much lesser extent on uncertainty. Democrats who are have spent untold, you know, tens of hundreds of millions of dollars in lobbying to block any kind of meaningful effort to address the problem. I wanted to go back to the late eighties. When when you know, it was possible to have done something. And there was a bipartisan consensus suddenly amongst the public because you mentioned George W Bush calls as he was running for president. He basically said the following. He he wanted to be sort of Mr. climate president. This is what he said. I want to lead this country and the other nations of the world to to a greater understanding of the threats facing our planet and to a greater commitment to meeting and resolving them. But if we don't see the need act clearly future generations will not only see dramatically in retrospect, they'll have to live with the consequences of our inaction. I mean, what he said, then we could hear on the streets of these protests right now and to be fair the very end of his presidency was the first UN climate conference, which was the Rio summit. You just talk about in nineteen Ninety-two how much of the science and the opportunity was was wasted. Then. All of it. And you know, the the Bush is fascinating figure in this regard. Because certainly when he was running for office and eighty eight and when he first got into office, he was saying all of the right things. And yes, things that you might here in a climate protests today, he said, you know, those who are think we can't solve the greenhouse effect as the problem is called then haven't heard about the White House effect. And when I'm in the White House. I'll do it for my research. What I gathered was that. He really didn't have a very strong understanding of the issue, and when push came to shove he deferred making some of the big decisions to his deputy who was who was sununu chief of staff and that led to the failure. And you can imagine in a in a sort of parallel universe. If you had someone like Bush saying those things and pushing and putting the weight of his presidency behind them we'd be in a different world right now. But the the key thing understand is that the scientific question was settled already. At the end of the eighties. Not only did we have this global treaty in the works. But there were thirty two climate bills introduced in in congress in nineteen thousand eight alone, many of them by partisan and in some in some crucial aspects some of them were more ambitious than than what you see in the green new deal today. These bipartisan bills at the time. So there is yes, there's a cruel irony to the whole thing. So this false food today. First of all we have this. This proposal of the green you deal. We've had the sunrise movement. Protesters camping outside house speaker Nancy Pelosi's office to make that point. And we've had AO see she's no congressman o'casey coaches saying the following about executive why this green new deal should be tossed and implemented. We should do it because we should lead. We should do it. Because that is what this nation is about. We should do it because we are a country founded on my deals of a culture that is innovative that that cares for our brothers and sisters across this country. We should do it because we are an example to the world. So do you think in short in the annual that is a new tide of public opinion that we could go back to that sort of era where most people now think that something has to be done. Yeah. Look, she gets it. This is a profound shift in conversation. When you listen to her say, those things she's she's making a very different argument. And this is true of Greta third Bergh, you had on show, and and and the students and the sunrise movement, they're not making the same argument that activists have been making forever, which is to say it's crazy that we don't act. We know what to do. It's foolish. They're saying that of course, too. But the emphasis is on our failure to act is undermining the basic values that we uphold as the pillars of our society, and that's a moral claim. And I think it's the only honest way of looking at it, and it represents dramatic break in the conversation. And it's it's the kind of argument that until now you only saw from people in the island nations, you saw it from from the pope and his encyclical, but this is a profound shift, and I think it's shaking the whole conversation. Both. In the US and internet with what I find fascinating is how some on these sort of Christian and Republican conservative side, a really weighing in now, while Mitch McConnell, Mike, say, you know, the radical left wing of the Democratic Party is unveiled that green new deal the socialists fans fantasy you've got others the climate scientists Catherine Heo who talks about convincing people from from the heart this door. She said. Just about all the objections that I've heard the genuine objections to to climate have everything to do with solution aversion. The fact that we fear the solutions more than we fear the impacts. We think the solutions will destroy our way of life and lead to much lower quality of life than we enjoy today. Whereas we've view the impacts very distant far off. They don't really matter to us. So to address this. I have to do two things that are very uncomfortable for a scientist to do. The first thing is rather than engaging with people from the head as we often do with data and facts and charts and figures, I have to engage with people from the heart. So we've literally only got ten seconds the annual, but to get conservatives like that on board at her husband's a pasta must be a good thing for people like you and the others who watching this. Absolutely. I think it's a sensual. And I think it's it's crazy to think of this as a partisan issue, and the sooner we make this moral claim, I think the more people on all sides of the political spectrum will understand what we're up against and the need to act right now, the Faneuil ridge also of losing a thank you so much and now we turn to a different kind of science delta Priscilla Chan is a pediatrician by traits. She's risen to prominence though, is the wife of Facebook, founder, Mark Zuckerberg and together, they run the Chan Zuckerberg initiative which aims to advance human potential and promoted quantity. Hari Sreenivasan spoke to John in a rare interview in San Diego where he also boss to about her latest project education reform and try to get into toll about whether Facebook should be paying more tax. What are you announcing today really excited to announce a new program at university of California, San Diego and UC Berkeley a program that we're barring from the university of Maryland Baltimore County, where we really are building in mentorship and practical advice and cohorts for under served underrepresented minority students to be able to pursue careers in the stem field. How does this fit with the initiatives that you're Asian works in see I we're a big believer that we need to have diverse talent to be part of building a better future for everyone. And so we apply many tactics to ensure that we are recruiting a strong robust into verse workforce. That's easy. I we're more than fifty percent women across the organization were a quarter underrepresented minorities. And that's not a nice to have we have to have this in order to be building solutions that really meet the needs of all we also have a science program that allows. Us to really think about how to cure prevented Minhaj all disease in the next century. And having diversity of opinions ideas and backgrounds is incredibly important because we need to bring fresh ideas bring fresh perspectives and skill sets into doing that. Because if we just use the same set of tools and solutions, we're not going to be able to see those breakthroughs. We also have an education program. We're really take an equity lens at how we really make sure that we are educating an opening up opportunities for all an individual at the stem degree makes twenty six percent more than individual without a stem degree. And so we really see this as a pathway to opportunity. You're not the first tackle education for this is a tough problem to crack. Mhm? So how do you think you're going to be able to do it? Where in a specific way were others have been daunted by this challenge. We don't think we're going to be the only ones to solve this challenge. And we don't want to be we really think about how can we enhance what's already great in happening in the field and spread that to more. And so what I'm really talking about is like my experience of having mentors. I kind of think of them as heroes who needed heroes to be able to unlock opportunity when you are in a minority group or you don't know what's possible. And we can't rely on heroes. We can't rely on luck. So how can we actually like look at these shining examples of what's happening of great education? Great mentorship and Bill tool so that others can do it in a high quality sustainable way. So that. We're not really relying on luck. But we're actually building systems for others to access opportunity. So what is the summit learning platform? Summit learning platform is a software and professional development program that we've developed in partnership with the summit public schools. It really is the three pergram project base learning teaching kids lifelong, learning, skills, and also mentorship. And what we've been able to do is take this excessive some public schools and build a software that empowers teachers to better do those things and share them with other schools, freely example of how it works. A school would have their students be able to have a year in review and say these are the topics in English science math that you need to cover an a year in here. The habits of success you need to be able to lay out a project plan track your parts against it. How to ask? For help. So it's got to dimensions. Both the academic in the cognitive skills of learning. And then they take those skill the those skills and those learnings and apply the projects how does Europe project. How does your learning actually live in the world? And so someone might do journalism project or visit an understanding of local zoo into really bring that learn to life give students the standing why something is important one of the concerns when larger nations try to tackle is. Hey, this might be an experiment for you. But this is my kid's education that you're playing with right. What you might take a key learning from this. But did my sixth grader fifth grader fall behind or not meeting certain expectations that they should have gotten by the end of this program. Right. We partner with summit to make sure that the curriculum provided is standards aligned in vetted by academics across the field. And so we. Of course, that's something. We believe in. And we wanna make sure that we deliver not just what is expected but outside results in Pasadena, Texas, the students who are furthest behind actually had a seventeen percentage gain in their reading in twenty percentage gain in math. That's incredible. We want to be able to see that type of outcome from strong implementations for students nationwide. How much of this is informed by your own background is in Asian American child of immigrants. I'm a child of Chinese Vietnamese refugees who came to this country with very little English in very little assets. And what my family was able to do is actually take advantage of the public school systems that we had a Massachusetts, and I had to incredible mentors that told me about college told me that I would be someone who would do great in college. But I needed that mentorship. Because as a first generation to college, my family wasn't able to. To provide that for me. But having someone told me about what the practical steps were take a tease take this class. But also the inspiration of you can do this you belong here is what made it possible for me to reach Harvard as a first generation student in for so many more students when I looked to the right of me and the left of me in high school, they should have been there too. But we often miss the opportunity to unlock potential when we don't give students the right amount of access mentorship opportunity. Let's talk about science. What's the cell? Atlas? What are you hoping to do with it? What is it in? What what kind of Scott, are you hoping that no leads to and so excited about the cell atlas? So believe it or not no one actually knows how many cells are in your body what they are doing what they look like when they're healthy or sick. And so by understanding that we can actually understand how your. Works. How what happens when you're sick? And how to take care of it. When things go wrong, and I'll give you two really exciting examples, I'm a pediatrician of taking care of lots of kids with cystic fibrosis. We always thought that they were these two cell types involved in it was a certain channel in the lung that caused cystic fibrosis what scientists working on the cell outlets and single cell sequencing figured out. There's a new cell type that no one knew before and it's involved in cystic fibrosis. So we they're still lots to be worked out about the mechanism. And if we can take advantage of it to actually treat kids with cystic fibrosis, but that's really another exciting example of how you'd apply the science of human cell. Atlas is in chemotherapies or any drug actually right now, there are many cuma therapies have horrible side effects because they're nonspecific. But what? A researcher at the bile hub realized is that for certain pancreatic cancer. It was a certain receptor on the cancer cells CD forty four that was what we needed to target in the drugs. Previously treated that cancer had horrible side effects. You would lose all of your skin. We need to redesign those chemotherapies to just target that receptor to significantly reduce the side effects. So this human cell atlas. It's going to be really exciting because it's going to be an open resource for scientists to build upon the knowledge of others for biotechnologies to actually build useful tools for pharmaceuticals to build medications that better treat human disease in your interest in criminal Justice reform that isn't inherently political process meaning. We collectively decide. What's good? What's bad? What is reform? What's our debt to society? So does that mean you end up lobbying or advocating on behalf of legislation? So is a political organization. We are excited about criminal Justice because they're folks on both sides of the aisle that are excited about improving the criminal Justice system the way we actually engaged is through to punch strategy one. We work with prosecutors right now prosecutors holding norms amount of power in the criminal Justice system. It is a decentralized system that allows prosecutors many of whom are elected to apply the law at their discretion. And the thing that is disappointing is that there's actually no feedback loop. Prosecutors often don't know when they make a certain decision if it actually improves the outcome for an individual, and if it makes the community safer, so we're working with prosecutors to better understand how they can improve their decision making process and the other side of this is really giving people a second chance we were part of the clean. Effort. How do we allow individuals who have served their time to actually have an opportunity at redemption afterwards right now records, stay on indefinitely affects housing opportunities affects job opportunities educational opportunities. But how can we as a system really allow people to have these records cleared automatically to open doors to them that they deserve. And this is incredibly important to us because one into Americans have a family member that's been incarcerated that means one in two individuals in this country are affected by these decisions that are being made by prosecutors and the opportunities that are available to people after they serve their time. How tied to the success of Facebook is meaning what happens if Facebook doesn't work out does the money in the push behind all the initiatives that CD is making those stop to at. Is funded by our families assets Facebook, but they belong to seize the eye. And so it we are managing the funds. So that sees the I can continue on for as long as we have the resources. You've CI continues your best case scenario is that change the world etcetera. Facebook doesn't do. Well, then these things would be hampered. You're saying they're completely separate CI's work would continue. We're managing the funds that CGI to protect our work going forward. We are always making sure that we have enough oppor. We understand how much runway we have. And we're very comfortable with the runway. We have right now. One of the concerns is that I know that you don't run Facebook. And this is not I know that you're not in the operations of Facebook. But since has been capitalized with the success from Facebook, the concern is that, you know, Facebook sometimes is making money from communities that it's working in in a way that. Might be normal for corporations, but doesn't seem almost moral. Meaning y park yourself in kind of tax havens, wouldn't it be better for communities that you're working in if Facebook just paid more taxes, it would be less work for Seattle? Do if schools were better funded. So I don't think for those who can afford it that higher taxes are a bad thing. I we would be supportive of that. And we do believe in making sure that community schools are well-funded. And so I think it's really about making sure that both the governments advocating to make sure that government's systems are well-funded because those are so much larger than any single philanthropy. And that's why we really think about how we engage on the advocacy level to ensure that those things are true while looking at the incredible opportunity that we have to fill in a specific niche in these space. So what I'm saying is Facebook paid let's say six billion dollars more in taxes wouldn't that eventually come into school districts and fire departments and so forth? And so that would actually be better for communities. It'd be less work for Seattle have to pick up and do right. That's not the way schools in California funded aren't don't actually work that way. And so in theory that all right, but that's not expertly how schools get their funding. So we need to make sure that we are really ensuring that the organ institutions that we care about the NIH school districts are getting the right funding. They need to do the important work. So, you know, one of our previous guests on get it us. I remember him. He had a book out for while and one of his premises is that world, it'd be better off. This is centrally if if you and your husband or other billionaires had less not more and even more specifically had less sane in whether it's health or an education. What do you say to that? I think that we as a society should really think about making sure that we are taxing those who can afford it. And I think that is a great opportunity to insure that are public systems are well-funded. But for those who want to give back, and it should we should be really thoughtful about ensuring that we aren't a single voice that as a foundation as a philanthropies. He's the I should be listening to the voices of scientists of teachers of advocates on the front lines in saying, what do you need what you need to actually build a better system, do better work and actually supporting that work is something that we're incredibly part of doing a mom how much digital technologies in your house like how much how comfortable are you with your kids and screen time screen time is a fascinating question. Because right now, we lumped it as like screen anyone minute is bad or quivalent. But I think it's we need to be. More thoughtful about how we think about it. Like, we have the girls videoconference video call with their grandparents all time, I think that's a fantastic thing. I think very few people would argue that little kids connecting with their grandparents across the country's a bad use of their time. But we don't park them in front of the TV for hours at a time. We think that's bad screen time. And so we are very thoughtful about when we introduce technology, and why to make sure that the kids are getting a balance of different inputs and access to learning that the otherwise wouldn't have had Facebook accounts. And if so what age thirteen in. Yes, did having children change. How you in work thought about the platform and your responsibilities? I built my career around service before I met Mark before I went to college. I knew that I had had had access to incredible opportune. Easy. It was my job to give back. I never knew that. I would have an opportunity this large to go back. And so it was always in our in our conversations that we were going to do this. But it always felt like we should do it in the future. But when we were pregnant with MAC's, we realized oh my goodness. The futures coming any minute. And if we wanted to our children to be a part of a future better than what we lived we needed to make sure we were doing our part. And so that's what gave us the kick in the bottom to actually do it. When we were when we had a newborn, and we're glad we were cloud. We're doing it because there's so much to learn we've already come so far in the past three years, and this is going to be a lifelong effort of making sure that we're giving back with incredible opportunity. We've had. I gotta ask. This is are your parents more proud of the CGI work, you're doing or that your doctor, my mom is. So are you a real doctor like when I graduated medical school does? This mean, your doctor when I was in residency does this mean, your doctor, and then when I started tending are you doctor now, and so I would say they are incredibly proud of the work. We're doing CI. But I think they are just so happy that my sisters, and I have been able to build our careers and lives here. Thank you. That is it for now. But join us tomorrow when I sit down with the speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi in Dublin remember, you can listen to a podcast at anytime. See us online at dot com and photo me on Instagram Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London. Are you interested in learning how great companies grow? Download the Mark podcast. Amar tech podcast tells the stories of real world marketers who use technology to generate growth in a chief business and career success from advertising to software as the service to data getting brands authentically integrated the content performs better the TV advertising. Typical life span of an article about twenty four to thirty six hours where reaching out to the right person with the right message and clear. Call an action that it's just a matter of timing ready to learn the secrets of technology driven marketing than download the Marta podcast. Just search Martin M A R T C H wherever you download your podcasts. Are you interested in learning how enterprise Gail companies drive organic traffic to increase their online visibility than download the voices of search podcast from the heart of Silicon Valley here? Search metrics Inc. CEO Jordan Kuni delivers actionable insights to how data to navigate the ever changing landscape of Google apple pin, the voices of search podcast arm. Search engine marketers and business analysts with the latest news and insights, they need to nephew the ever changing landscape of search engine optimization and content. Are you ready to learn to use surged data defined strategic insights about your competition and your industry as a whole than search for voices of search wherever you download your casts? That's three simple words voices of search to learn the secrets of search engine and content marketing.

United States Facebook David Attenborough scientist London Michael Holmes Sophie Lanphier Netflix Greta Thon director American Express UN Republican party David Christiane Amanpour American Express trans union Oxford circus San Diego
Fraser Nelson, Carl Bildt, Andrew Yang, David Miliband

Amanpour

58:08 min | 2 years ago

Fraser Nelson, Carl Bildt, Andrew Yang, David Miliband

"Every year over six hundred thousand people enter prison gates in America. Go behind the numbers of mass incarceration. In America, with me van Jones on my new podcast incarceration, Inc. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcast, this, Jimmy Butler, see himself as a belief, the saquon Barkley thing he can be the greatest running back of all time. Well on my new show, take it there with Taylor rooks out. Get all those answers from your favorite athletes. Tune in on the be our app for new episodes every week. Hello, everyone and welcome to on poor. Here's what's coming up. It is and will always remain a matter of deep regret to me that I have not been able to deliver Brexit Prime Minister Theresa may done in by Brexit hardliners says she will step down. Does this mean Britain will crash out of the EU plus? America's politics, no less volatile. An Andrew Young says that he's running the nerdy, est presidential campaign is street can the format tech exact stand out in a crowded field, and all of my instincts, and all of the facts, I was able to gather on a trip recently all that the situation is getting worse. Not better. The deadly disease voter is stalking Africa. Again, David ban head of the International Rescue Committee, calls for new approach to stop the epidemic. Spiraling out of control. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Theresa May became prime minister, because of Brexit and Brexit has now become her undoing nearly three years after the UK voted to leave the European Union. It has still not done so may negotiated a deal with the EU but failed three separate times to get parliament to agree. So on this warm sunny morning, may took to the podium, outside Downing Street to announce that she is finally surrendering, to the fierce opposition from the Brexit hardliners within her own conservative party. I believe it was right to persevere, even when the odds against success seemed high, but it is now clear to me that is it, it is in the best interest of the country for new prime minister to lead that effort. So I am today announcing the title resign, as leader of the conservative and Unionist Party on Friday, the seventh of June. So the successor can be chosen I will shortly leave the job that it is being the owner of my life to hold. The second female prime minister, but certainly not the lost. I do so with no ill-will, but with enormous and enduring gratitude to have had the opportunity to serve the country. I love. An emotional exit. Indeed reminiscent of Margaret Thatcher's twenty nine years ago, just to remind you the UK has had his Treasa may said, only two female prime ministers. Both have been done in by their own party may will stay in place through President Donald Trump state visit in early June an offer that the conservative party launches its contest to select a new leader who will succeed her also as prime minister, President Trump addressed her resignation as he left for Japan. Here's what he had to say. I feel badly for Therese. I like very much. She's a good woman. She worked very hard, she's very strong. She decided to do something that some people were surprised that. Some people weren't, it's for the good of our country. But I like very much. In fact, I'll be seeing her in two weeks. And just reminded the President Trump invited trees may as the first leader to the White House shortly after his inauguration. Now Fraser Nelson is editor of the conservative leaning. Spectator magazine. He's here outside parliament joining me from Abingdon green, and call built is the former prime minister of Sweden, and a keen observer of the battle of Brexit and how it Lafayette Europe and he's joining me from Stockholm, so Fraser Nelson, I guess, I to you to try to put into context describe what you think this means for this country right now for the Brexit negotiations. And in Donald Trump's words you agree that she stepped down for the good of her country. Or yes. Of course, and the good of a party, the government, she she'd given everything trying to get, as you with from the EU the parliament, would find acceptable and other than anybody can say she didn't try enough. She tried to vote three times and still those two ends quite close in the end, but didn't quite meet. So there is therefore, no option. If you make any more concessions to try to come up to get letting somebody else, try with the union union, go see, perhaps, even with the new European Commission because let's remember era points the pulls yesterday. The results of this will eventually be a new European Commission and perhaps one, which is a little bit more conciliatary with the member stays. So there's going to be a change of governments all around London, and in Brussels, and I guess, we'll have to see what the next few months will bring golly called Bill JIRA. Former prime minister and foreign minister of your country Sweden. So that is an interesting prospect that the EU elections could cause a completely different landscape. In brussels. And that could cause a different level tenor of negotiations between Europe and Britain, what do you do? You think that's that's possible. No, I don't think that is likely to happen, because the very extensive work that went into withdrawal agreement is essentially work down between the UK government and the twenty-seven other governments or that has been in the goes eight appointed by by by the commission. So it is something that's endorsed by all of the twenty seven governments, and the prime ministers, and that will not change with UPN parliament election. The appeal parliament road in the Brexit process is somewhat more limited. They have to prove their agreement at the end of the day. But otherwise, it is with the governments that that goes have been held, and the number one government that is taken to disclose the Irish government, and I doubt very much going to change in that respect. So do you think to phrase, phrases point, though, that, that new party leader, a new British Prime minister could get? I mean, it's a little bit of the same question, but could get more concessions from Europe. But I mean I we have to we have to wait and see. No one knows who's going to be the next prime minister, say, for the sake of augment that it's say boys Jones on ios to pick one of the pulse of the names, the possibility or the likelihood that he will be seen as a character that you must have give good gifts to from Brussels. I think that is somewhat unlikely to put my life. I think that we'll be and the has been a willingness to do Shane, his aid, the so called political declaration of have been different interpretation of the resort agreement. But what has to be negotiated? I think is extremely unlikely that, that would be changed so Fraser, I'm going to put you this idea of a new leader, obviously in Britain. The polls show that the front runner is Boris Johnson? You just heard what call Bill said about it. This is what Treasa may said about essentially what her successor will face as well. This will be for my successor to seek a way forward that honors the result of the referendum to succeed. He or she would have to find consensus in parliament where I have not such a consensus can only be reached if those on all sides of the debate are willing to compromise. Fraser boris. John sorry. Yeah. Boris Johnson is a hardliner. He's a Brexit of fierce Brexit here. He led the Brexit campaign, he was the face of Brexit. I mean is he going to get a compromise with all sides? Is it going to be easier to come to an agreement that parliament will accept? I'm not sure it's called him a hardliner. I mean, sure he backed Briggs is. But it's an opinion poll last week. Showed this half of the country still backs Briggs. It's part of the reason, but to resume going is because there's a new Brexit party of it didn't exist. Two weeks ago, we gather as about a third of the votes in the European parliament election. So if you want Briggs, it doesn't make you a hard liner. It just means you want to leave the European Union, and you're not prepared to, to wait indefinitely as it seemed we were going to do under Theresa May. But it's not just Boris Johnson who will say that, by the way, if we can't get used compromise that we leave without the deal he will say that the suit will any other likely challenger dominant, grab Sasha, Javid, Eubanks remain, Jeremy hung, the foreign secretary, he would be endorsing, a new DO Brexit, as an alternative, if the EU and compromise. So this is going to be the mainstream position. I think from anybody who will be serious contenders series, me that the EU. Won't compromise in the way the Carl Bilt suggests. I'm not sure agree with in there. I think they will be a bit more flexible. But if they weren't compromise, then we will have to leave without the deal on the thirty first of all, Tober and not just Boras Johnson. Several and leadership contenders are going to be saying this so phrase, I don't want to be torture logical, but the idea that are no deal Brexit will become mainstream does not negate the fact that, that is the hard line position. And this is what call Bill has tweeted today, so call I'm gonna ask you the Brexit hotline membership of the conservative party would choose a new leader with a mandate to crash out of the EU as soon as possible. I fear that's the brutal reality of the situation Brexit means breakdown will Europe allow Britain to crash out. Call Bill does it have any option to prevent that? Well, it doesn't wish it, it has been spending a lot of energy into doing it withdrew what agreement negotiating that of a months and months, negotiating, you put it there to even put it a declaration on the future relationship, so enormous efforts have gone into this from the European Union side, but it has been hampered by their certainties in the divisions and divides in the UK, and by the inability of the UK, but it consists to come up with a coherent position. But, but, but it's worth stressing that, of course, you've been unit has been negotiated not as I'm as a person, but with the United Kingdom as a nation, and as with UK government and the position of the union is not dependent upon the one or the other individual big sort of leader of the conservative party leader of the UK government. But it's depending on the facts of the matters. And, and I happen to believe that with all of the problems associated with it than the different compromises, they withdrew agreement that too. May negotiate. It was other honorable one which sought solutions to the tweak issues of the immediate withdrawal issues included Irish issue. And I doubt very much it can be done differently. And I think that will be reluctant open up that, that we lose to be a very short period of time. And I think boy chosen is no sad that he notes. Seek an extension yield has a couple of weeks that everything can be redundant a couple of weeks of votes shortly unlikely, I think, unfortunately, of future tely, it is likely that we're heading for a crash, and I it must be said that there are quite a few members of European governments who have spoken today? Spain, Germany France, Ireland have all expressed concern expressed worry that this could be even a more dangerous situation than than we already have had. But I want to turn to you phrase it, because you've written quite extensively on Boris Johnson. You said you've basically said, two things in your latest writing he is the best candidate to present conservatives of as force for change. In fact, he might be the only candidate able to do so. And then you say so that was the case for him. But the case against him is just as easily made that he's a showman, exposed to such when he lost to be prime minister, etc. I want you to expand on that tell me about how he could be his own worst enemy, and vice versa. Well, he's a deeply divisive character. I think it's safe to say, but as long as nobody in that parliament behind me, who divides opinion as much as Boris Johnson, a one level he's got huge numbers of fans. He's a sort of politicians who can serve change the mood of a shopping center, just by giving into it, and he's got to the Trump characteristics, which, you know, a lot of people like a lot of people really hate, but he's also got that sort of Trump ability to hog, the oxygen of busy to kind of make sort of universe bends towards them in a funny kind of way now and that's can be an advantage. If you're a politician, especially if you're trying to get over Nigel Farraj, a few months ago, the conservatives would never have thought of Boris Johnson because they dislike him, the end, it's like, in Brit, exactly that reason they think he's more of an entertainer of an apoliticial and he doesn't spend much time. Trying to make friends with alliances with other politicians. He seems to use his public appeal as a shortcut for doing lots of hard political work, so. These and many other reasons why you leadership failed last time around. But then again, you can't deny that he is a winner an election winner. He twice was elected mayor of London, which is a labor, left-wing city. You'll also when he joins the leaf campaign. Nobody thought that campaign was going to win. Nobody thought Briggs it would be approved by referendum, and it was Boris Johnson's energy. He's kind of optimism and flair, which gave that edge. So if the conservative party is worried that faces an exit central threat because that's what it does right now. I know some Tories you think there's going to be a single conservative MEP left in the European parliament when the votes are counted the Monday if they think they're about to lose their jobs. They'll take a desperate, measure and Boras Johnson. Is that desperate measure? Oh. Boy, it doesn't fill me with great confidence to know that he's a desperate measure. Let me let me just read what some of the British UK and Scottish politicians saying because Boris, of course, sent out a tweet saying. How very dignified. It was the statement from trees may. Thank you, Stoeckel service. Obviously, he's being one of those putting the knife in her bag ever since she took the prime ministership and Nichola sturgeon senior first minister of Scotland, acknowledged that by saying what a hypocrite when she retweeted his tweet, but she's also said, Nichola sturgeon, and this is very important. The prospect of an even more hard line Brexit here now becoming prime minister and threatening a no deal exit is deeply concerning added to the experience of the past three. Is this makes it all the more important that Scotland is given the choice of becoming an independent country. So Fraser could we now be seeing the dissolution of the United Kingdom, the dish United Kingdom whether its independence in Scotland or eventual reunification of the Republic of Ireland with Northern Ireland? No, I really don't think so for fundamental measure, what nNcholas Georgian will never tell you is that too, in five scouts voted for Brexit. If you look at the opinion polls in Scotland for the European parliament module for Brexit party is in second place ahead of labor. Head of Liberal Democrats and the conservatives. So I mean sure Scott's not asking on breaks in England behalf of English people wanted to Briggs it's two of did. But there's not that night and day difference that would lead Scotland to succeed if Britain does walks down this path, and the opinion poll since the Brexit referendum of shown that nNcholas surgeon doesn't have anywhere near for support, she would need to have another tilt at independence. I mean, she might try it again in the way that incubate they had the second referendum, but she news if you lose the second referendum as incubate is difficult to have the third. Let me just turn to you call because you have the international perspective of Boris Johnson. He was obviously foreign minister, and there are many, many leaders who've told many of us off the record of their true feelings about the intellectual capabilities in terms of actual administrating and his often lack of preparedness for the actual job. How do you think he is going to be viewed? I know you said, it's not with a person is with government, the EU negotiates with, but there will be a face, and there will be a voice to that government. It wasn't because we're all the day move by Theresa May to make bosoms for executive days. She did, and I belong to those that thought that might have been small because it might have been the possibility for him to start to build bridges with other UB leaders and sort of create the goodwill that by Vanessa say for the UK as he was heading fatty rough time in these particular negotiations. But I think fair to say that he didn't spend any time, building confidence with the building bridges with the rest of Europe. And that impression is the left their port from all of the other factors that to that indicated is that possibility that he will do a Nixon China that he would be completed different that everything would be turned upside down, nothing can be excluded in this kind of world that we're living in these days, but time is extremely short and therefore, we're main fairly sort of pessimistic. I'm sorry to say highly. Regrettable, from the European Union point of view everything that we're seeing happening now. So could I also say because it's somewhat highly regrettable from a global economic perspective to according to the IMF the International Monetary fan fund, which says a no deal. Brexit could push the UK economy into a two year recession while also posing one of the greatest risk to the global economic growth to this end. I know Tracy. You don't believe it. I know you don't. But that's what the experts on the economy say, and I want to play what, what the president of the European Union has said to, to us at CNN this is this is a John Claude young recently this week. In fact. Because we are going from one extension to next tension to we imagining the next tension after the the next extension. People are losing patients, we have to stop this process, because it's harming you general Abbas fear in Europe is harming the grove perspectives worldwide after say because we have two problems when it comes to the national economy, the tweet dispute between the US and China and we have this exit issue. This is not helping the economic growth. So very worried president of the European Commission Alaska to phrase that has to be quite sure, why are you shaking your head? Why don't you believe what the experts are saying on the global economy? Because you have to look at what they said, after the last time after the Brexit referendum. The same people were saying the even vote for Brexit were tip Britain into recession half. A million job losses were predicted by the votes. Let live Brexit Theresa May's stands down today after presiding over a million jobs created and the three years that she was there. And Brexit has not had the effect which they predicted last time, which makes me bit less inclined to believe the same people making the same forecasts this time. All right, Fraser Nelson. Call Bill, thank you both so much. Hi, I'm Bill Kristol feeling confused about politics, who isn't. That's why host my podcast conversations with Bill Kristol. They have thoughtful conversations with leading figures, and politics and public policy, we reflect on where we are. And we consider where we're going subscribe at I tunes, or wherever you get your podcast and check out our archive for conversations with guests like Mike Murphy, David Axelrod. Ron brownstein and Paul Begala. No spin no soundbites just thoughtful real conversations. Please do subscribe today to conversations with Bill Kristol tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Our friends Xeni optical offer. A huge variety of high quality stylish frames state of the art optics starting just six ninety five you can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home at Xeni dot com. With the latest trends in eyewear available in hundreds of frame, styles and materials. There isn't a better way to. Change it up for every season. Plus, is any offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit Xeni today at Zanny dot com slash ready. That's Z. E N N. I dot com slash ready. The case is, we gotta find who wrote this. No. We do that. We find the killer this science defined out. Police used Luminol a chemical which close when it comes into contact with the iron component in blood that drama. But where was the rifle and which man was telling the truth forensic files, the legendary true crime show is now a podcast join investigators. They take on the toughest cases with cutting edge scientific tools. Subscribe now with apple podcasts with new episodes, every Monday and Thursday, you'll never miss out on getting your renchik fix. And we turn now to the United States, which, of course, is gearing up for its own chaotic political race. While Donald Trump was his Maga hat, democratic presidential candidate, Andrew Young whereas a hat that says math. The former tech exec is an unabashed numbers lover who calls, his campaign, the nuttiest in history, born in New York to Taiwanese parents Yang story is unique in a crowded democratic field but canny pull away from that pack. Hari Sreenivasan tries to find out. While you're running for president. I'm running for president to try and solve the problems that got Donald Trump elected in two thousand sixteen and the most direct cause of his victory was that we'd automated away for a million manufacturing jobs in Michigan. Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Missouri and Iowa. And if that list of state, sounds familiar, those are all the swing states needed to win. And now my friends and technology know that what we did to the manufacturing workers. We will now due to the retail workers the call center workers fast food, workers truck drivers and on and on through the economy, when the midst of the greatest economic transformation in the history of the country would experts are calling the fourth industrial revolution. And I'm running for president to wake America up to the fact that it does not immigrants that are causing dislocations around the country. It is technology in an evolving economy, and then enacting meaningful solutions that will help America transition through this time somebody's going to say, why not start it mayor work, your way up. Well, unfortunately, we're, we're way behind the curve, we don't have that much time. If you look at the numbers now thirty percent of malls and stores are closing in the next four years, because Amazon soaking up twenty billion dollars business every year and being a retail cashiers the number one job in the economy, being a trucker is most common job in twenty nine states and robot trucks, oh, five to ten years away. So if I bided my time and ran for mayor all many of these challenges would get far far ahead of us, if they are already had of us already former vice president Biden was recent making a speech the other day, which is the first priority has to be to be Donald Trump. And you have said multiple times I'm the candidate to beat Donald Trump because I am laser focus on the problems that got him elected in the first place, but I'm his opposite. What I'm saying is that the opposite of Donald Trump is an Asian man who likes math that really that's simple. It may well be that simple. But I'm already drawing, thousands of Trump's supporters independence, libertarians conservatives someone in Iowa came up to me and said, you're what I hope for when I voted for Donald Trump think about that for a second, and, of course, I'm drawing many Democrats, and progressives who are excited about the fact that we can put resources into the hands of families and children and start recognizing the work that women in particular, do in our families and communities every day. So I'm getting Americans from every point in the political spectrum, including the twenty five percent who are politically disengaged and because of this, I can build a much bigger broader coalition to be Donald Trump and twenty twenty did you take some inspiration from the idea that an outsider could do this. Well, certainly, I would never be running for president, if Donald Trump had not won in two thousand sixteen. To me, his election was a giant red flag to the progress of our country where you have to take a step back and say tens of millions of Americans were desperate enough to take a bet on narcissist reality TV star as our president, so that to me should be a stop sign for Americans in many walks of life. It was for me. And I said, okay, how did this happen? We'd automated away millions of manufacturing jobs in the swing states, scapegoated immigrants. What are we going to do about it? This was not a conversation. I was seeing being had in our political circles. And so I said, this is why a run for president. So in a way, Trump definitely inspired me to run. You know. In some ways, you're also stacking certain lobbies against you. When you look at some of these policy proposal, you want to create a department of attention, economy to help us study technology like smartphones, how they might be harming us. And regulate companies apps game, social media, you want to create on cabinet level, secretary of the department of technology, you want to regulate a and emerging technology, you got the VAT tax, those seem like government overreach to attack industry. That's largely gone on regulated, you want everyone to be automatically able to file their taxes, sort of rehearsing it right out. Seriously better things to do than. Yeah. And tax experts and I can see into it in our block lining up against you, there, you wanna make economic crimes punishable. So you want to hold the financial companies to account. I can see bankers and CEO's at one of fund your opponents, just based on that single policy. Right. All of these different smaller constituencies, have become very powerful lobbying groups. You bet a DC. Unfortunately, that's, that's kind of part of the reason that we have this sclerosis that we have is. How do you change that kind of a system that keeps people who are speaking your truth from actually getting the votes necessary? Well, I've raise millions of dollars from everyday Americans around the country and increments, only nineteen dollars each, so my fans are even cheaper than Bernie's. So if you're get the people on your side than you can win. An election in democracy, but it is not as dry as saying, oh, these people are going to be formula against me. They're over one hundred technologists and C E O's who've come out and endorsed my candidacy, because you sit with them and say, hey, you concern about the future. A lot of them are like a lot of them are not bad people and they're not even solely. Economically motivated their parents. They're Americans they grew up in the mid west. And if you say we need to come together and create a system that works well for everyone. There are a lot of CEOs that will embrace that, you know, the biggest policy that you are arguing for universal basic income, which would put a thousand bucks into the hands of every citizen, every month pretty much no questions asked. You're calling it the freedom dividend, because it pulls better with Republicans that way. Now, Republicans might just come back and say, this is just another socialist redistribution plan. How do you think it's gonna work and how do we pay for it? Well, I'll start with how to pay for it. So even conservatives do not like the fact that Amazon trillion dollar tech company paid zero in federal taxes last year. They know that's not the way our system should be designed. And so the way we pay for freedom, dividend, for every American is we follow every other advanced economy in the world and have a value added tax. And because America's economy is up to a record twenty trillion plus up five million in the last twelve years, even a mild value, added tax would generate eight hundred billion in new revenue that plus economic growth having all this consumer buying power in Americans hands lower direct costs on things like incarceration and homelessness services and emergency room healthcare. And then the value gains from having a stronger healthier, better, educated population would be enough to pay for a dividend of a thousand dollars a month. This is the trickle up Konami from people families and communities up in terms of conservatives in there. Other excitement or lack thereof for this proposal. There's one state in the US that has a dividend right now. And that's eight is Alaska and it was passed by Republican governor, deep, red state, and it's wildly popular. Many conservatives in the -tarian independence, really liked the idea of a dividend. Because it puts more decision making into their hands as opposed to the government value, added tax. There's going to be people right now. Anytime you hear a word of tax conservatives or Republicans fiscal inserted will come out and say this is a job killer. Right. And if you say you want tax companies like Amazon, their shareholders, that penalize those companies. So how do you get over those two big hurdles? Well, I addressed seventy CEO's at a conference recently here in New York. And I asked how many of them are looking at using AI to displace like thousands of back office workers every single hand went up. So then when you ask them, hey, do you think it's reasonable to have some sort of measure, so that the American people have a path? Ford. It's not unanimous. But it's about fifty fifty like many reasonable CEOs look up and say, you know what my incentives in my position are to maximize profitability on a quarterly basis, which means if someone has this solution that enables me to get rid of workers, I have to take it so they see their own incentives. And they see that it's going to be disastrous, for many American workers. They many of them are very open to different sorts of solutions for the broader population so twelve thousand bucks a year. That's still below the poverty line. That's not enough to survive on, so does that mean that people, let's say they're pursuing the things that do make them happy versus slogging through some horrible job does that mean that they pick up more part time work that are kind of economic overall productivity decreases or that perhaps, wages, decrease considering the market says, well, maybe I don't need to pay everybody so much because they have two thousand coming in or prices, increase a little bit saying that bag of chips can go up another couple of cents because everybody has this and there. Well, the first thing it, does it just puts more money into the economy. It would grow the consumer economy by about twelve percent would create at least two million new jobs, right in main street communities, where people can actually meet the jobs, instead of thinking someone's going to move to Seattle or something. So there's just more work to be done. When people have more buying power, and it would also help recognize a lot of the work that's done in families, and homes and communities, every day, most of it's done by women people like my wife, who's at home with our two boys. One of whom is autistic right now. The market values are working zero GDP would value her work at zero, but we know that's the opposite of the of the truth that her work is as important and challenging as any other work that's being done. So this would actually make us more productive in many ways, because it would free people up to do the kind of work that they want to do much of which might not be showing up in GDP, which in my view a very flawed. Incomplete measurement. You've got a bunch of different proposals on your site besides universal basic income. So I want to get to a couple of those you, you call one hundred prosperity dollars every American. They can donate to nonprofits, you've got one hundred democracy dollars for every American that they can put towards election. So instead of waiting for citizens United to be rolled over or turnover, you want to add more money into the system that would cost you twenty three billion, you got an American exchange program. You wanna take high school seniors have them traveled to different parts of the country for six weeks, free marriage counseling for everyone you want to increase teacher salaries, and this sort of specifics, you say you're going to work with the states on that you wanna create American journalism fellows. Good for us. Good for me, but that's gonna cost six billion dollar fund to help that. And you want to attract people as you were talking about the dying malls, and rethink how they abuse. How does all this get paid for? And this is one thing that I have to say, like I get very passionate about is it's, it's incredible. How successfully we've been brainwashed into thinking that we don't have the resources again, our economies up. To record twenty trillion dollars. We're the richest most advanced economy in the history of the world we can easily afford these things. What's happening right now? Is that to the extent money is getting spent it's getting caught up in various systems, and bureaucracies that are not really delivering the benefits that the American people expect and that's one reason why we're getting so frustrated abortions been in the news, a lot recently as states are. Opting into restricted until court challenges all on your site. You say the basically, if men were getting pregnant, we wouldn't have restrictions on reproductive rights. You also say requirements place by individual states on access should be subject to oversight by a board of doctors, not the whims of legislators. So how do you get to that vision of yours from where we are today? Well, as you can tell I'm very pro women's reproductive rights, as a male legislator. I don't think it should be up to me. What women do I would leave it? I would leave the room and women design. I've a feeling. I know how women would come out, but the best way we can protect women's rights to make sure that Roe v. Wade remains the law of the land and the best way to make that happen would be to have the supreme court reflect in my mind, the views of the American people. And right now the supreme court's been politicized in a disastrous way. So there are a couple changes that would make number one is, we should move away from lifetime appointments eighteen year terms, which would help de-politicize it and make it less of a firestorm Mateen. Well, that would, if you had nine justices, and that would mean that you get an appointment every two years, it's fairly predictable, each president gets too, but it's ridiculous that we're hyperventilating over whether in eighty six year old woman gets a cold, you know, that's not a way modern country should oppa. Rate. And then the second thing is that there's nothing in the constitution about the number of justices on this court. It's been lower than nine seven higher than nine and other countries have had higher numbers in part, so that when someone steps down, it's not as big a deal on climate change. You say the federal government should support local efforts through funding and market based incentives. Meaning what? Well, right now, if there's a big company that emits a lot of carbon into the into the air, they're not really internalizing that cost economic terms. So the way we helped monetize it is, we have a carbon fee and dividend. Not attacks. Well, I mean you could call the tax you'd call it a fee. I mean it has the same effect. But the point is that polluters should be internalizing the cost their emissions which then provides an incentive for them to reduce those emissions, and they can even innovate get their emissions down, and then sell those credits to another company. Those are the market mechanisms that would help us get emissions under control much more quickly. Okay. Immigrations and other hot topic that we're thinking about and talking about a lot right now. You'd support the dream act, you'd increase funding for border security, and create a pathway to citizenship. That would mean a new category of permanent resident who have to wait eighteen years for citizenship, about the age when we could vote, right? Why do you think congress agrees to this versus the impact that they've had for the last twenty years when they've tried to make different steps at a comprehensive immigration reform? Well, if you remember there was a time when Marco Rubio was leading a bipartisan effort, that looked very much like the proposal that I'm championing, and then he lost a bit of courage. You've figured out that it would be bad for him politically. And then you know then we never heard from it again. But most Americans agree that this is a common sense approach that we need to pursue. If you have over twelve million undocumented immigrants in the US, which we do, it's completely ridiculous to suggest somehow that we're going to deport twelve million people it's practically impossible. Would collapse regional economies. It would be inhumane in separate families. So we need to own the fact that they're these people are in our country, and we need to figure out a path forward for them. And again, Republicans before this before they started scapegoating immigrants these don't they have recently regarding China. You have talked repeatedly about figuring out a better relationship forward with them about not seeing their gains are losses. And at the same time, you also mentioned that their advantage in artificial intelligence is massive the amount of data that they have access to, and the if we had a lead, they're catching up on that. If not gonna pass us on that they're also increasing right now, they're global influence with dozens of countries through their boat road initiative at a time when the United States seems to be pulling back and in how we engage with the world. And you've got estimates books by some estimates right now that on the western side of their country, you've got a million we or are in reeducation camps in twenty nineteen. So what are you willing to compromise to keep our T shirts? Cheap. I wouldn't have certainly wouldn't simplify it to that extent. I mean there's a much more complex relationship, then cheap t shirts. But to me, the temptation is to view any rise and China's wealth and influence as somehow detrimental to American interests. That would be something that America's kind of have had a natural tendency in the past. And so if we had down that road that we're going to wind up with certainly a trade war, as we're seeing now and potentially a Cold War, and maybe even worse over time. We have to see that China. China's development is historic in nature and does not necessarily mean that are standard. Standard of living or our stature in the world necessarily going to decline and absolute way. So the goal is to try and find the win win where US China relationships are concerned, and I talked about talked about a fair amount, we need to maintain a leadership positions that we can more effectively, frankly, like be at the table so that China feels like they need to work with us. And so there is an element of focusing on our own competitiveness of. There's also an element in trying to avoid the zero-some game that would lead us to a Cold War with China. There's this weird factor American voters have, which is do I want to have a beer with the guy or do I want to sit down and vitamin at home here, you are traveling around the country? Now, what's your elevator pitch to them? How do you introduce yourself? You know it's one I mean I sit with Americans all over the country. And I'm not sure where I rate on the have a beer factor, but they're crowds of thousands of Americans coming out to our events, and rallies considering there's twenty other candidates. How do you break through? Obviously. There's a policy proposal. That's pretty exciting right now. But how do you introduce yourself as a person that they can connect with all that's one of the fun parts of this process? Introducing myself to more American values drive you where did you come from? You know what I mean? What, what's the kind of thing? That's okay. I trust this guy looked them in the I shook his hands got it. You know what's fun is? I actually think I'm introducing myself through the policies and through the problem solving approach is in Americans at this point have lost patience with a political narrative of symbols, and anger and culture personality. Like they're more interested in how to solve the problems of the day. And when they see someone focused on solving those problems, too many. Americans that's breath of fresh air. Andrea. Thanks so much. Thanks, great to be here with you. And there certainly is no shortage of problems to be solved for instance, it bolo which is striking again in Africa, the horrors of that sickness were in plain sight, of course, back in two thousand fourteen when a massive outbreak ravaged west Africa kidding more than ten thousand people, the heroes of that story. Those who risked their lives to stop the spread what time magazine's person of the year in twenty fourteen. But now we bowl is coming back in the hearts of the continent in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where more two thousand already dead. And this time those heroes, the healthcare workers, all themselves being attacked, and the outbreak is occurring in a conflict zone. The president of the International Rescue Committee. David Miliband is just back from the DRC where he saw the crisis close up. Miller band is the former UK for a secretary and he's not only focused on this issue. But also on other crises, for instance, the treatment of asylum seekers of the southern border of the United States, and I ask. About all of this, when he joined me from New York earlier, just before this crisis developed in British politics. David Minna band. Welcome to the program. Thanks christiane. Good to be with you. It is extraordinarily that we seem to be seeing on the verge of maybe yet another a bowler epidemic. This time obviously in Congo, how did it get? So big so fast. Well, there's one thing that is unique about this Ebola outbreak is the first bowler outbreaks take place in a conflict zone, the epicenter of the outbreak. Tembo is an area in the far east of the Democratic Republic of Congo, where they're at least twenty different armed groups, just in that narrow area and probably sixty in the wider province. And this is something which poses special challenges when you're trying to build public trust which is the foundation of an effective Ebola response. It must seem incredible GIO, viewers that health centers are being burned down. But ten months into the outbreak that is the case because the Ebola treatments and. His are seen as agents of central government against which the local people have a high degree of animus. So this is why it's uniquely challenging. It's now ten month into the outbreak and all of my instincts, and all of the facts, I was able to gather on a trip recently all that the situation is getting worse. Not better. And do you think because everybody oversee remembers in west Africa, how awful it was there? And then how terrified everybody was that it was going to spread beyond Africa into America Europe, etc. Does this have the same potential? Well, I think this stage is important not to engender, a global panic. But it is right to cool for a global reset on the response. Let me explain what I mean. At the moment, there are about a thousand people just over just under eleven hundred that been about eighteen hundred cases, that compares with the west Africa outbreak of two thousand fourteen when over ten thousand people died. So in terms of order of magnitude. This is the second largest outbreak. But it's only one tenth of the scale of the worst outbreak, having said that there's a real concern that the number of cases is being mosques by the shutdown of services. That's resulted from the attacks on the health centers, and this does become an international problem, if or when the outbreak spreads from Timbo, the current epicenter, to go on the Rwanda, Uganda border, that's the heart of the cross border trade. And obviously, if the outbreak wolves to spread to Goma that would pose enormous regional concerns. Our concern International Rescue Committee, is that community. Trust is marked by its absence. There is a real fear of that the treatment of a bowler is something that seen as an alien on outside force, the association of international agencies with a national government, which is disliked. Remember, this is an area where the national. Government cancelled the elections in December. It's hot land of the opposition, and that trust gap is the biggest danger at the moment. Was it lies at the core of the risk the Ebola spreads and spreads widely? You know, when you say trust gab, it just reminds me to put it into context. Maybe Americans this outbreak of measles in New York, for instance, as trust gab. This is misinformation. That's delivered. That is causing or at least exacerbating these outbreaks and I wonder what you make of the director, general of the W, H O, the World, Health Organization, says, when we cannot reach people they do not get the chance to be vaccinated owed to receive treatments, if they fall ill. The tragedy is that we have the technical means to stop a bowler but until all policies hold attacks on the response. It would be very difficult to end this outbreak. And now you've talked about attacks and the WHO of logged about one hundred and twenty on this stuff alone. How does one? Get beyond this one of a better word trust deficit will the quote that you. Made from Dr Ted the head of the World Health organizations. Absolutely right. It's been notable and hugely, welcome the way he's devoted himself to visiting the area talking to local people. And I think he's now identified a core problem. This is not just a public health problem. It's a political problem because that's what the absence of trust monks, and all of our experience is that you have to hire local people, you have to train, local, people, you need community outreach that is led by local people, and you need the spokespeople for the response to be local trusted people when they're from civil society, the church or elsewhere. Because if this is seen as an international opposition, it won't come on the confidence necessary. The good news is in contrast to west Africa, one hundred thousand people have been vaccinated. That's a tribute to the WHO, but I'm afraid we need to go much much further and winning local trust, if we're to ensure that the local population does a scape. A million people live in Bhutan Bo. This epicenter of the outbreak. I'm whether it be the health system or the security system needs to be run on the basis of local consent. And that is, what is lacking at the moment with very conscious as an international, non governmental organization that we need to employ local people if we win that confidence in his outbreak. We'd also say that the international agencies need to listen to the NGOs, the non governmental organizations, because they are locally rooted. And as far as we can see the actual number of cases is probably higher than that, which is recorded the interruption of services means that there's a real danger that the contact tracing every time there is a someone identified with a bowl, you need to make sure you reach the ten twenty thirty people who they've been in contact with. It's also important finally to remember you made the parallel with measles and. The determination of some people in the west not to have those magazines. There's a big difference bowler is actually quite Hong to spread his it spread not orally, it spread by the exchange of bodily fluids. The most dangerous moment is if someone touches a dead body, and so we've got to make sure that there isn't a panic, but there is a reset in the way the responses organized, because remember, it's ten months now since this first case was seen, and we have to recognize it needs to be a change of approach, if this epidemic is to be prevented it does sound pretty scary and interesting, though, that you are on the ground there and you're not a medical organization. You are the International Rescue Committee. And also you at the southern border of the United States, and it's incredible to read into digest the for the second straight month, one hundred thousand or more people have not just crossed but being put into detention. What is the state of the humanitarian crisis at the southern border, as far as your perso-? Mel in your organization is concerned. So the International Rescue Committee is concerned with people whose lives are shattered by conflicts disastrous persecution, and that explains why we are fighting Ebola in war-torn part of the eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. It also explains why we've had to deploy to the southern United States where there are people coming from what's cool, the northern triangle, dole Guatemala Honduras these places consumed by gang related a conflicts and they're fleeing to seek safety. I'd say two things about what's happening at the southern border. First of all, I was in El Salvador lost the month before last. And it's evident there that, that country and its new government needs support to stabilize the situation at source of the Trump administration. President Trump talked about cutting aid twelve Salvador, that seems like the opposite of what would be an appropriate response because we know that international aid to countries like, El Salvador, actually, makes a difference to stabilize. Secondly. At the southern border, you'll right to point out that it's tragic really that we've had to deploy some stuff in in one case actually away from the Ebola situation towards the situation that southern border. And the reason that we do so is the proper planning and preparation has not been done to process, the asylum cases we've got a hundred asylum seekers being dumped a. Bus station on a weekend and we've had to put shelters together to help them register to help them find their relatives in many cases, they've got relatives in other parts of the US so they can go and stay with them. And so the second part of this is obviously that the US system for processing asylum. Came claims is not a working in a fair or efficient way. And from our point of view, you need to tackle this problem, both at source in the northern triangle, but also make sure that you uphold the basic systems for asylum processing that a rich country should be able to engineer, and she certainly by the actions, they, you can see that they can't deal with all these people apparently, according to the New York Times, the government is flying, tens of thousands of these migrants who crossing from Texas to holding areas in California. The president himself has just told congress that the number of unaccompanied minors is dramatically increasing. Thing. And he's asked for about one and a half billion dollars in extra aid for housing. Do you think the president by making that request is recognizing the humanitarian nature now of this crisis, because obviously publicly he portrays it as a dangerous sort of criminal enterprise, and a gateway to, to only criminals will, I think, is rights to recognize that in a situation where the processing of asylum claims in the US is taking three or four years. But in Germany is taking eight to ten weeks. There's a real responsibility on the US administration to process cases properly. It's also important to say that in the backlog of cases, that exists, you've got a wide range of situations. You've unaccompanied children. But you've also got grandmothers who've been living here for fifteen or twenty years and have been picked up in a range of raids on those who lack documentation. And I think it's really important to learn from common sense as well as. Tells you that you have to separate out of the cases, between the serious and the simple you have the complex in the simple. You've also go to make sure that you resorts, the system properly. Because as a humanitarian organization with the first to say that those who do have good grounds for claiming asylum, should be allowed to remain in the US or in another country where they claim a solemn if they don't have good grounds. Then obviously they shouldn't be allowed to stay, but that requires administration of the system and a fair and officiant way, if the president's new requests speaks to that, then all for the good, where on the verge of European elections. It is Nigel Faraj and his Brexit party that a leading in the polls again, is that something that's going to be a lasting impact on the landscape. And how does a big win for Nigel garage in Europe affect the Brexit negotiations and the final shape of Brexit. I think that the, the nightmare of. Brexit, isn't just about the results of the referendum three years ago, which, obviously, I'd been Mon, but the three sins have meant that no one's satisfied. Neither those who voted for leave nor those who voted for remain. I always say that, if the government had proceeded in a different way off the 2016 referendum, tried to recognize the full nature, the result, and the Goshi departure from the European Union, the respected the different points of view that I don't think we would be in a situation where you've got the polarization between those who say, we need a no deal Brexit, which anyone with an element of economic. Commonsense realizes is a hugely risky, and Tabriz. There's no single country that works solely on WTO terms, which is what they know. Deal advocates say is the Navonna on the other hand, you've got people announcing look, there's no middle way, we need to have a proper national referendum on the proposals the detailed proposals. Full brexit. And I think Britain faces because of the way both conservative and labour have handled the Brexit issue over the last three as you face a period of distinct polarization, what I think, is impossible for Nigel garage, or anyone on the Brexit signed to claim is that their victory will mean the end of the Brexit nightmare, because the truth is, whether you have a may Theresa May style Brexit or no deal Brexit. There are many of negotiations ahead in order to fashion, some kind of relationship between the UK and the rest of the EU in the future. And so from, from the point of view of someone like me, who's British who's concerned about the fate of the country and its inability to address some of it's more pressing issues. I think that there is a real concern that we are facing a never ending nightmare rather than a one that's coming to a close and added into that mix. What Russia's intentions may be because the general analysis is that Russia looks to see the divisions wherever they. Might be and to profit from them. What do you think Russia's end game is now? What would it be agitating, for in Europe and Britain and elsewhere, was interesting that you say that I went back to the UK during the referendum campaign made the foreign policy argument about the dangers of Brexit, I called the unilateral political disarmament, because it was pulling Britain out of an alliance of democratic a nations, and it was weakening liberal democracy. And of course, if you're sitting in the Kremlin, the moment, you want to see the unity of the liberal, Democrat, liberal, democratic nations, a weakened, the insidious assault was going on inside democratic western democratic nations with Russian funding that was notable in the French situation. Alligators of in the UK, obviously mean that disunity is in the interests of the Russian states at the moment is that European disunity? They've always feared. A more you not unified European Union more unified European continent. And I'm afraid there are both external as well as internal forces that are leading to the fracturing and the fragmentation of the European continent. And that's I think very dangerous global terms, not just in local European terms and not to think about David mid abound. Thank you so much indeed for joining me. Thanks very much indeed. And of course, we'll know a lot more about the fragmented European landscape. If it comes to that off to the results of these e you elections are finally released at the end of the weekend. But that isn't for now. Remember, you can always this to a podcast. You can see us online at Amazon dot com, and you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London. Hi, I'm Bill Kristol ever wonder what the godfather films breaking bad can tell us about the health of the American dream or what it was like to be in the Pentagon nine eleven or how supreme court justices talk to each other, when they get together at a conference. These are the kinds of questions I ask and topics I discussed with guests on my podcast conversations with Bill Kristol, subscribe at, I tunes, wherever you get your podcast. Check out our archive with guests like general David portrays, David Axelrod, ion her CLE, Ron brownstein and Justice Samuel Alito subscribed today to conversations with Bill Kristol.

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Amanpour: Ted Deutch, David Blight and Mark Bertolini

Amanpour

58:22 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Ted Deutch, David Blight and Mark Bertolini

"Every year over six hundred thousand people enter prison gates in America. Go behind the numbers of mass incarceration. In America, with me van Jones on my new podcast incarceration, Inc. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcast, does Jimmy Butler, see himself as a belief to saquon Barkley thing he can be the greatest running back of all time. Well on my new show, take it there with Taylor rooks out. Get all those answers from your favorite athletes. Tune in on the be our app for new episodes every week. Hello, everyone and welcome to one for his what's coming up. The problem is, we don't have any time to waste is bipartisanship, the answer to our climate crisis. Democratic congressman Ted Deutch short think so he tells me the world count wait for a new president to take action. Then the life and times of Frederick Douglass Pulitzer prize winning David blight digs into the world of the former slave who some call the greatest figure America has ever produced plus the CEO who death in the face and was inspired to improve the lives of his employees. Hari Sreenivasan speaks to mock virtually any. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Proustian on poor in London time is ticking away for the United States to act on climate change. While people are now regularly taking to the streets, begging for action to combat the impending disaster politicians paralyzed government hasn't been taking the steps necessary to hit a deadline from the United Nations, which says that we must Hof emissions by twenty thirty to prevent a catastrophic one point five degree rise in temperatures amid the inaction Democrats is spitting over what to do. Push sweeping reforms, the green new deal or focus on moderate bills, that are more likely to Ghana bipartisan support. It's a divide that's only set to grow as the twenty twenty election approaches and climate rises up the list of voters concerns, Florida. Congressman Ted Deutch says there is no time to wait and his Bill to increase a carbon tax has received by partisan support. He join. Me from Washington to talk about this new environmental Bill as what has gun control and the recent Russian hacking of his own state, congressman Deutsche, welcome to the program. Thank you. It's great to be with you. So are you getting really serious now about this issue of climate change, and tell me how you proposed carbon tax is going to work and change anything? Well, I'm getting serious were, there's now serious attention in a bipartisan way in congress to focus on this, because Christiane we have to given the urgency of, of this issue. Look, we've introduced a bipartisan carbon fee Bill that we're confident. We'll change behavior will dramatically reduce carbon emissions, and will finally help to show that America is committed to being a leader on combating climate change. We're going to do it by imposing a carbon fee at the place of the emission. So we're going to start at fifteen dollars a metric. Ton. We're going go ten dollars per year, and it's going to be at the coal mine at the oil refinery at the natural gas processing plant all of the money that comes in through this carbon fee is then going to re be rebates to American families. That's the difference here between this and other attempts, both in America and around the world. All of the money is going to go back to the American people, so that the majority of, of Americans lower income, and middle income Americans will actually see more coming back to them than the amount that their energy costs will rise. And all that's in the short term until behavior changes and we see change in the way, the energy industry is structured. I know that you have correct me if I'm wrong at least one or two Republicans signed up. But on the other hand, you a meant to join me today with your Republican cosponsor Francis, Rooney, also a Florida. He. Whatever reason has not been able to turn up. And I wonder whether you know, of course, there's scheduling conflicts and all the rest of it, but I wonder whether it's difficult still for Republicans to put the head above the parapet. Well, first of all, let's be clear about one thing in the United States climate change is only a partisan issue in Washington. I come from south Florida where every business leader in local government official, whether they're Democrats or Republicans understand the impact of climate change, because we see sea level rise affecting our community, and our economy, already my, my colleague, Mr. Rooney couldn't join us, but I can safely say he has not been bashful in his advocacy for this legislation and the need for us to act in a bipartisan way, we just have to break through in Washington. It's, it's frustrating that, that it's been so difficult when this is an issue that impacts literally every. Part of our country. But we're starting to see more people ask questions engage in figure out how they can be helpful to do this with us. Well, congressman, there is a new poll, which suggests that the majority vast majority of American people put this issue way at the top of their list of election time concerns. But it is Washington, that's going to have to agree to get this thing moving, and so far, the head of the Senate majority leader Senator, Mitch McConnell said that there is no way, quote than it will pass the Senate, and it won't pasta Senate after we retain our majority in twenty twenty so how do you overcome this? Well, first of all, I don't know I can't speak to Mitch McConnell's experiences in Kentucky. But I can assure you that he's got constituents and business leaders and others in his state and certainly there are significant business leaders from the largest. Operations in the world who understand that we cannot continue to put our heads in the sand on this issue. So the way to do it is to simply plow through push through him. There's going to be the first presidential debates on, on the democratic side will take place in south Florida in Miami this July, and I have every reason to believe in certainly, I'm going to push his hard as I can to make sure the climate change is right at the top of the agenda where as you rightly point out, Christiane is where the American people believe in understand that it needs to be if we're going to take advantage of this last opportunity, we have to help re-chart the direction of our planet. I mean, if beggars belief that in a country of such innovation and capitalist and manufacturing expertise, why it hasn't been put to the top of the agenda of some really major new economic. Nick sort of powerhouse. It's, it's bizarre to me, the fact that congress hasn't acted doesn't mean that American business isn't aware of this issue recognizes the opportunities, not just to address climate change. But in so doing to bring about a, a real economic revolution. There are, there are entrepreneurs, small entrepreneurs large companies as I said, local business leaders, all of whom are facing this head on. We have a tendency to look at congress and think that if, if Mitch McConnell decides that he doesn't like something that therefore, we're not going to see change our country is full of examples where Washington was slow to the game, but around the country, others took the leadership roles and helped drag Washington, along with them. We're trying to be. Be their allies. We're trying to work with those who recognize the economic opportunities as you point out to really make America on this issue, especially at an economic juggernaut in leading the world to a cleaner and more vibrant, both both economy and by doing that by tackling climate change having a greener planet and one that's more sustainable. The left wing of your party believes that this doesn't go far enough that, that you'll fee you'll you'll you'll coven fee proposal is essentially toki about reduction of thirty three percent of emissions by twenty thirty. People say that's not foster off. The UN says that no, that's not fast enough, and particularly in a particularly bobbed assault on on your idea. The food and water watch group has said this carbon tax Bill amounts to climate denial not climate action, emissions pricing schemes like this one actually supported by the world's largest oil and gas corporation. Because they do nothing more than trench, the status quo an economy dependent on polluting fossil fuels of what is to that. Well, I, I reject that out of hand. Look, the fact is, it's also true that some of the world's largest, environmental groups are also supportive of what we're trying to do that. The, the fact is, if we can reduce if we can reduce our carbon emissions by forty five percent over the next ten years by ninety percent by twenty fifty hopefully faster than that. If we do it by having the by having the largest the largest carbon fee, fifteen dollars, and then increasing dramatically at ten dollars per year to see behavior change with a progressive system to return, the money to American families, and a system that will give the EPA the opportunity to, to, to come back in and ensure that these goals are being met. I guess the question that I. I have is when will when will we actually be willing to take meaningful action, this represents a significant step forward, and the last I checked in Washington, we haven't done anything on climate change. This is as the analysis shows a drew. This would be a dramatic step forward in reducing carbon emissions. That's why there is bipartisan support for it. That's why so many groups from across the political spectrum, and, and rank and file environmentals from around the country who have reached out in droves to encourage members to sign on, we've got to move forward. This is a significant this would be a significant step forward. That's it's one piece, but it's a vital piece toward changing behavior, reducing carbon emissions, and ultimately, making sure that we start to do all of the things necessary for us to tackle. Climate change and start to, to address it in a way that will keep our planet in our economy, and our kids and future generations safe. Well, and you really do have the wind in you'll back because most people around the world believe that and certainly I young people adjust their wit's end trying to get people of our generation to get serious about this. Can I also ask you about another thing that unites voters, especially millennials all over the world, Cetinje certainly in the countries where where it's appropriate? That's the issue of gun control. You have just introduced a piece of legislation last week called the Jake that act, of course, Florida has seen. It's terrible. Share of school shootings. The park land and other such terrible disasters. What will the Jake led do? The Jake Laird act is an employee will provide important tools to law enforcement to be able to take guns out. Out of the hands of people who pose a risk to others or to themselves. This is something that's been done in a number of states throughout the country. We want every state to be able to do it. We wanna make sure that, that the dangerous people in our country can't have access to dangerous weapons. But Christiaan I would just say, since this is very much like climate change the I represent Marjory, stoneman Douglas, high school and parkland, I was with the families just last night. And for my community that will never be the same a community like so many others in our country, who feel the regular whether it's regular daily gun violence or these mass shootings that occur far too often, the Jake Laird act is an important step forward. But we've already passed universal background checks in the US house. That's sitting in the Senate waiting for Mitch McConnell to bring it up for a vote. When? There is something that has over ninety percent of, of support from the American people. It's certainly in a politicians interest to move forward on it. The Senate autumn afford to help save lives. Young people across our country were enter have been energized over the issue of taking action to save the lives of their friends that they've seen be gunned down in their schools, and it's time that the politicians listened to them. I appreciate your asking about that. This is an issue that we also need to talk about and it needs to be front and center. It is extremely that it's politics in the Senate that stops this, and the reason I pointed that out is because I wanted to ask you to react to obviously, the spate of so-called religious shootings shootings, designed to go viral, whether it's an American synagogues churches, whether it's in mosques around the world like we saw in Christ's church New Zealand. I just had the opportunity to interview GIS into oughta and the prime minister of New Zealand who within. Within twenty six days of that, massacre, got bipartisan support to change the gun laws and to reform them. And this is what we spoke about impera sloughs week on this issue. I have to acknowledge New Zealand. Head pretty permissive gun legislation will actually some of the some of your people said, you know, we feed off the world we're hunters. And we and we are, and we will continue to be food producing nation that deals with animal welfare shoes, and so on and has a practical purpose and use for full guns, but you can draw a line and say that does not mean that you need X military style semi automatic weapons and assault rifles. You do not. And you Zealand us by and large absolutely agreed with that position. Australia, experience domestic and change. They lose New Zealand headed experience and changes lose to be honest with you. I do not understand the United States. I mean that, that statement of got a lot of pickup. But. I mean do you understand your own country? Well, I don't I do understand. I, I understand what I hear every day Christiaan, which is parents and young people who who literally beg for action on gun safety. I have enormous respect for the prime minister, I've not had the privilege of meeting her. But what, what happened in New Zealand? And the way that they took that moment and stood up and said, there is just no reason that weapons of war belong in our communities should be a model and in America, we know, the same thing, we know that, that throughout our country courts have held up bans on on these weapons of war. We know that there is strong support for taking action. Whether we go forward with a ban, which is necessary. Whether we amend the national firearms act, two treaties. Weapons of war, the same way we treat machine guns. The fact is we have to take action. She is not wrong when she looks at what happens in America, and the regular onslaught of gun, violence, and says she doesn't understand. I don't understand either most people in our country don't understand, and as we head into this presidential campaign. I certainly hope that every one of the candidates is forced to confront where they stand on this issue. Do they stand with the kids who have seen their classmates die? The families who are afraid to send their kids to school not knowing whether they're going to come home, the, the those who suffer violence every week. Or do they stand on the side of the lobbyists for the gun companies whose sole focus is on raising the revenue of those gun manufacturers weapons of war, don't belong on our streets? New Zealand got it right. American needs to act, as well on the issue of Russian hacking, it was discovered that two fly. Forida districts will hacked into twenty sixteen elections. But we only discovered it off to the Malo report was made public, or at least the unredacted pause were made public. Can you tell me about that? And do you feel that this is potentially a threat for the next round of elections in your states and, and in the United States? Well, I can't tell you as much as I would like to, frankly, we had a briefing classified briefing with the FBI last week, and I urge them to go back and reconsider their decision to keep this information at a classified level to prevent the American people from knowing all of the details of what happened in the last election. The reason that's so important is because we face the same threat going into the next election. The Muller report made clear the all of the ways not even all of the ways they made clear in great detail how the Russians worked to interfere. With our election. Our last presidential election. We know that they've gone to great lengths to interfere with elections throughout Europe and other parts of the world. So it's imperative that we fully understand what they tried to do where they were successful and what everyone needs to do to prevent it from happening again. That's the biggest frustration on the way the Muller report discussion has played out is that the attorney general has tried so hard to spin the conclusions of the mullahs report that it's frankly prevented us from focusing on the most significant piece of this, which is the attempts by the Russian government to interfere with our election. And the very real concerns that we have the Ville continue this and will attempt to do the same thing in even more ways in the next election. Congressman Ted Deutch. Thank you very much for joining me. Thanks for having me. Christiane. Hi, I'm Bill Kristol feeling confused about politics, who isn't. That's why I host my podcast conversations with Bill Kristol. I have thoughtful conversations with leading figures, and politics and public policy, we reflect on where we are. And we consider where we're going subscribe at, I tunes, wherever you get your podcast and check out our archive for conversations with guests like Mike Murphy, David Axelrod. Ron brownstein and Paul Begala. No spin no soundbites just thoughtful real conversations. Please do. Subscribe today to conversations with Bill Kristol tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses, our friends at Zanny optical offer a huge variety of high quality stylish frames state of the art optics starting at just six ninety five you can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home at Xeni dot com. With the latest trends in wear available and hundreds of frames styles and materials. There isn't a better way. To change it up for every season. Plus, is any offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit Xeni today at Xeni dot com slash ready that Z E N N I dot com slash ready. Remember to create an ad like this one, visit pure winning dot com slash CNN. Now, we cost our is back to America's past, as we take a deep dive into the extraordinarily life of Frederick, Douglass, born into slavery. He rose to become the most prominent abolitionist of the nineteenth century using his eloquent, and powerful voice to argue for both racial and gender equality author and Yale University professor, David blight, expanse his Mazda work on that period of American history, slavery, the civil war, and the Douglas affect he has fascinating new insights into his life in his Pulitzer prize winning biography Frederick, Douglass, prophet of freedom. David blight. Welcome to the program. Thank you. It's good to be with you. So this book is causing huge waves. You've got the Pulitzer prize. But tell me what it is about this period in American history because it's not the first book of this, period. You've done the civil war. Several times you've even written about federal Douglas before. Yes. Well, the civil war period is the pivot of American history. It's the it's the central event of the nineteenth century, it's when the United States toward self to pieces. And then had to find a way to put itself back together, we reinvented a second Republic out of that war and Frederick. Douglass is as good a spokesman as good a commentator on that entire epoch, as we ever had his origin story, though, is what really I think, everything centers around in other words, his escape and what he did with that escape and how he escaped so so take us back to that beginning. Sure. He was born in a backwater of the American slave society on the eastern shore of Maryland, in ever knew who is father was although his father was probably one of his white owners, and he knew the name of his mother, but barely knew her. He grows up twenty years, his first twenty years as a slave on the eastern shore of Maryland. And then nine of those years in Baltimore and the fact that he became an urban slave living in Baltimore which had a large free black population and a and a distinct and very active community as everything to do with why he escaped his literacy, also had everything to do with why he escaped he did finally plot his escape at age twenty in eighteen thirty eight by a pretty clever scheme of writing three trains, and three boats ferry boats. From Baltimore to New York City crossing the Hudson river into lower Manhattan after about thirty six hours on the road. Obviously, you know he didn't go to school. He didn't have full training and from your book. It's obvious. Obviously transpire is that the wife of his white ONA decided to teach him literacy, tell me about that. Her name was the feel he's about seven eight years old living in Baltimore, he sent there to be an effect, the playmate of the nephew of his owner. But while there's feel teaches them his letters alphabet and reads aloud with him for more than a year and particularly reads the bible with him. And once he sees the pawn, his literacy, once he sees depan, the ability to read, and eventually to right? That's gonna take a lot longer. Nothing seems to have been more important to this. Slave child. And then later teenager, then his mastery of words, he also then had the tutoring, so to speak. Of a black minister, preacher named Charles Lawson, who was a kind of a storefront, informal preacher who loved to read the bible out loud. And once he found this teenager who could read, so well at age, twelve thirteen and fourteen Douglas than Frederick Bailey, sat with all Lawson day in and day out whenever they had time and read the bible out loud thing, I guess, you would say then in today's pollens Frederick, Douglass was really fortunate to have been embraced by so many important mental that's unusual. Isn't it for young black slave? It is it is. It's his greatest. Good fortune, while the slave to encounter language and to encounter people who aided him in gaining that language. But then he also had to seize upon it because he is sent back to the eastern shore, when he's seventeen and eighteen years old, and he's been. Entire year being savagely beaten by an overseer name Edward covy. That though was one of the fomative moments of his life, not the beating but the way he stood up to it. And you write about that saying that it also laid to serve the full mislaid story is the establishment of his manhood by ritualized violence. I was nothing before he wrote I was a man now. Yes, he writes about that experience, of course, in retrospect, as an auto biographer, he claims that his fight when he stands up to covy blasted two hours and so forth. I doubt it ever lasted that long, but Douglas as the writer transforms that into the metaphor of kind of resurrection. He's a he's an eighteen year old kid who has been beaten into submission week after week after week by this deranged overseer this beside. Good man who apparently enjoyed beating his slaves. Douglas tells us by standing up in this ritual of male violence. He then forced covy to never touch him again, in the last few months, he lived with covy according to Douglas, telling Doug covy never touched him Douglas makes that a pivot in his autobiography he says, I have shown, you the ways a man was made a sleigh. Let me now show you the way a slave became a man, we can we can make too much out of that. But Douglas did show us there that in his own memory, at least some kind of ritualized violence was the way that he saw himself resurrecting himself. I actually really glommed onto that because I think that it's stands to reason that, that he made so much of it because maybe it wasn't the violence, but it was his resistance and his bravery to stand up, which then shaped him for. The rest of his life and grid. Because as you right. Even the famous mental that he found in Massachusetts. The, the abolitionist William Lloyd garrison. They were very close. But ultimately, there was a break between them over politics and, and how to move forward about the constitution about what America really stood for. And he also had the temerity to stand up to the great ABRAHAM LINCOLN didn't he on some of Lincoln's proposals to, to send black slaves off to colonize central Africa, Central America or Africa? We did he get that bravery from maybe from beating covy and telling him to quit it. That's possible. Indeed through the eighteen fifties. Douglas gains the confidence of an extraordinary order who could go into any hall, any church or any park in, in an Italian or city and just wow, an audience. But by then he had also written two very important. Autobiographies hundreds and hundreds of the short form political editorials he had written one novella and some of the greatest speeches in American rhetorical history, especially his fourth of July speech of eighteen fifty two such the by the time, he means ABRAHAM LINCOLN in the middle of the civil war. He was a bit odd by Lincoln. That's make no mistake. But he stood up to Lincoln. He had a very serious conversation with Lincoln in their first meeting, and especially in their second meeting. He went to Lincoln with protests against the discriminations being experienced. By black soldiers. Two of them were Douglas's own sons in eighteen sixty three and eighteen sixty four you mentioned the fantastic independence day speech of eighteen fifty two. So allow me to quote a little from that dramatic speech. This is what he said the existence of slavery. In this country brands you'll republicanism sham you'll humanity as a base pretense and you'll Christianity as ally. It destroys your moral power abroad, it corrupts your politicians at home. It saps the foundation of religion. It makes you a name a hissing and a byword to a mocking us. I mean that is just, you know, or inspiring. It is that speech is what I like to call the rhetorical masterpiece of American abolition isn't. But it's hard as it is a classic Jeremiah. That's the rhetorical form named after the prophet Jeremiah, which is the prophet taking his people or his congregation. If you like to the altar calling them to the altar and chastising them for their declenchant for their sins for how they poisoned their society and warning them that if they do not change their ways their world is about to be destroyed. But the fourth of July speech is much more than that. It's a beautiful use of language it's almost like a symphony in three movements. He draws in his audience by telling them that the founding fathers would geniuses he calls, the declaration of independence, the ring, bolt of American liberty, but then about one third. Third of the way. And he says pardon me, why have you invited me here a former slave on your fourth of July and then he uses that that word you, your, you your over and over and over. And then he takes his audience through the whole middle of the speech through the litany of evils and horrors of everything from the slave ships, to slave auctions to slavery itself all over the United States. And then he ends by tell ins that section by telling them, you have a reptile coil that your heart break away break away break away. It's like Jonathan Edwards. And the fact that does Jonathan Edwards one better. And then the ending of the speeches simply Douglas, gently letting them up and saying, but your country is still young. Your country is still maleable. You may have time to repent reform and recreates yourselves, but that's speech is in the in the great tradition of the jazz. Ramaya add the delivery of the warning about the hypocrisy of the people. But if they don't rise up and change their ways they are probably going to be destroyed. And that is in part, of course, what the civil war brought about sit even obviously Frederick. Douglass strove, all his life for suffrage for for for his black Americans. But he also was one of the earliest to join the birth of American feminism. He was one of the first to be there at Seneca falls in eighteen forty eight but he seems to have had a pretty rocky relationship with the idea of who should get this offering who deserved it, most, when and what for and just to read these two quotes on the positive, he, I said the history of the world has given us many sublime onto takings, but non more sublime than this. He said about American Suffragettes, but then later, he said with them. I women it's. Desirable matter with us. It is important a question of life and death, and he came to rhetorical blows at least with some of the great figures of the early feminist movement. Like Susan B Anthony. Yes. Well, those are two very different context and both are true. Douglas was one of the only males speakers at the Seneca falls convention of eighteen forty eight the great women's suffrage convention that Susan Anthony, Elizabeth, Katie Stanton and Lucy stone and others planned, but when it came to the fifteenth amendment in eighteen sixty nine eighteen seventy the voting rights amendment, which was, of course, a whole package of compromises and everybody. With one eye open understood that if you put women's suffrage into that amendment, it never passes, it just simply never would have come out of the congress, and certainly never would have been ratified by three quarters of the states. Now Douglas knew that everybody knew that, but the leaders of the w-. Women's suffrage movement. We're no longer patient. They had put off their movement during the civil war saying it was the black man's our. But now they wanted equal suffrage rightly so how ever they fought back with a lot of racist language. They fought back with all kinds of racial, racial epithets. They said things very publicly, like if an ignorant black man can can stumble to the polls and vote. Why can't a sophisticated educated white woman like me vote, and it got uglier? They use the Rhett, they used the N were Susan Anthony Elizabeth, Katie Stanton. And the even used it undug Lous himself. Now Douglas handle that. The with largely with grace, but not always, he did say things like you just quoted, he also said, at one point, unfortunately, that. But women still have their husbands devote their interest now. Right. Right. When you thought our men was very modern, you think. Oh, god. How can you say that? And, you know, phospholipid couple of centuries. And here we are at a very difficult time of race relations in the United States. You know what would you have thought of these reform? His his appeals to the vet angels and the feast -ness of his rhetoric when he sees the deep divisions of the deep racism that is still evident in the United States, despite the fact that we already had one black president. Right. It was never easy to know what Stoorikhel figure would think today, but Douglas, no doubt be a profoundly frustrated profoundly disappointed that all of those elements of white supremacy of racism that he encountered throughout his lifetime. And he was Jim crowed more times than he could ever count all over the United States. It became almost a routine. He would be profoundly disappointed that all of those elements that somehow the experience of the civil war, and reconstruction had had had put on the run had put on the other side of history, lo and behold, of course, we're reviving in his own lifetime. He lives all the way to eighteen ninety five to witness the betrayal of reconstruction, and then the creation of the Jim crow system and even to the age of lynching in the eighteen ninety, but if he were here today, he would wonder whether we know any of our history to be perfectly Frank. But of course, by the eighteen eighties eighteen nineties, he's fighting against the emergence of this loss caused tradition that will plant, so many of those confederate monuments all over our landscape and indeed plant a version. One of the meaning and the story of the civil war indoor culture that is still, they're telling us, somehow, the war wasn't about slavery. And that the south foot fought his nobly as did the north in everyone should be honored in some equal way. Douglas would be deeply troubled that we don't seem to know our history and act upon it really is an extraordinary extraordinary story. You said I that peril Americans don't know that history. Well, I you know, hopefully, they'll notice a bit more because the Obamas have signed a deal with net flicks to actually produce a series based on your book. So this is going to give a whole new knife to Frederick Douglass and to your book David, thank you so much indeed for joining me. Thank you, Cristiana enjoyed it very much. It's a story bound to leave you wanting more next Magdeburg cellini used to be known for his band knuckle leadership. But now the former CEO of the health insurance giant. Aetna has swapped dollars and markets for the public good. His new book, mission driven leadership. My journey is a radical capitalist chronicles the wakeup call. He needed to change his capitalist ways. So what did change his tune? He told a Hari Sreenivasan should health care be a basic human, right? Yes. That was an easy answer. I'm saying we have somewhere around twenty eight ish million people uninsured. We've got our private sector that spends three times as much as comparable countries governments in other countries than half as much as we do. Why, why do we have these outcomes? Why I think we have a confusion between the investment decision and the financing decision. So if you look at the CD nations, the United States is thirty four out of thirty four of the nations in value for quality rendered in healthcare. When you look at the overall spend of healthcare and social costs, and you add the two together, we are twelfth and the CD nations. And when you look at the split between healthcare and social, we are the only country that spends more than forty two percent and healthcare, everybody else spends less, and they spend the rest on social programs. We spent sixty two percent and healthcare. So what you're seeing is the collision. Of a social experiment failing into the healthcare system and things like the opioid epidemic. Right now, political season is continuing, you've got presidential candidates talking a lot, several of them propose on the democratic side, a Medicare for all type of system will that fix the challenges that you're talking about if not, why not it won't in. Here's why I let's define what Medicare for all is or a single payer. And when asked that question most people can't answer it. When I asked people will tell me a country that has it, they usually offer the UK or Canada, neither, of those countries is a single payer system through socialized medicine. It includes not only the financing of health care about the provision of health care, if that's what we want, then we have a much bigger left, but we should be talking to people about what matters to them about their healthcare. What is it about my health? That gets in the way of the life, I want to lead. And that would introduce this notion that the opposite of health, poverty, and the opposite of poverty is health. It's not wealth. It's I can live a life in a way that is comfortable to me and what we're finding now is that ten percent of people's life. Expectancy is related to the clinical care. They got thirty percent is related to the genetic code. They have and sixty percents related to where they live. So your zip code is now more, determined of your health and longevity in life than your genetic code, or the healthcare system itself. I know by the way in that ten percent were spending three point two trillion dollars because we're catching all of the stuff coming out of lifestyle. So until we fix that social determinate model, we're going to continue to have sicker, and sicker, people, and the system will fail because it'll be overburdened with things that can't deal with when the Affordable Care Act came around, and you were running at now you were in. I want to say fifteen seventeen seventeen marketplace's by the time you left, you'd left almost all of them. You call these marketplaces, death spirals why what was happening was the whole model of insurance is to manage large populations of risk. And when you price the product, and particularly in the Affordable Care Act, we had a price eighteen months before the period actually began by the way by virtue of the way the government built the program. I remember sitting with President Obama, having the conversation give us time to stabilize the markets. Look at this as a three year investment, and we did, and we had a set of metrics that we were monitoring, and what it would take. And what kept happening is because of the political dialogue in the Senate and the house over what quote unquote, ObamaCare meant nothing got solved politically, which it needed to be. We need legislation to change the things that would stabilize the markets. They could playing with the risk pools, and the risk adjustment and the and the payment systems in a way that didn't allow us to stabilize the market. And so, for us, it was when you get the market and shape, and you're ready to play by rules and rules of law. Then we will be willing to come back in a little bit about the business side of healthcare. The merger acquisition of CVS and Aetna. You've got the Cigna Express Scripts deal that also happened. You've got other ones kind of in the pipeline and these merger seemed good for shareholders, but how are they going for consumers if we're going to solve this social determinate problem? We need to get into the home. We now have sixty percent of the American public who are four hundred dollars away from a financial disaster. That's less than most of the deductibles, the next twenty percent were within four to five thousand dollars of a financial sender and the current system is so costly, by the virtue of the way, it's constructed operated the healthcare system that we have to get closer to the home in the community. And so our strategy was to be part of the CBS organization to generate a local presence in every community so that we can arbitrage the high cost healthcare system by offering more in the home and more in the community. It's place making that mean a CVS becomes a little bit more of an urgent care center or that I'm getting not just my drugs there. But some of my medical services there, so I don't have to go to a hospital. I think of it as a community center and every community is different. So I would argue in low income neighborhoods where people are on the edge, poverty, and always have that fear free falling into poverty in a very significant way. What can we do to help create a stronger safety net for them? If you have a significant event that throws you into poverty try and figure out how to get childcare transportation's schooling all those things. And so couldn't we create a store that does that couldn't we create a store that has a concierge service. It says let me help you figure out what the next steps ought to be, so that you don't fall through the hole, and lose everything you have you personally have experienced with rare disease. Your son had one. What are they teaching about the health care system? It's not a system. It's not a system. It's a bunch of rifle shots by people who are really talented marksman, but aren't necessarily looking at the whole person. Tell us about what your son has always on had t cell gamma delta, vulne only forty seven people have been diagnosed all men. All between the ages of seventeen and thirty five he was sixteen. So he was the youngest ever got the disease. They told me at six months left, my wife and I took him around to see doctors found a doctor in Boston said you know what the T cells are cancerous. And those are the cells that live under your skin. If we can chase the T cells away, we could cure the cancer, but that means we need to do a bad bone marrow transplant, which is going to create graphics Associes, which will kill the T cells. And if we solve the problem of him surviving graphics associated, CS. He'll live. Wow. Right. Six months or graphics Associes. So we chose the graphics Associes route. I moved into his hospital room with them, because it wasn't just the medical care. It was the food on his plate. He was allergic to legumes. They kept showing up on his plate. You know, he wasn't getting he wasn't getting good information. The residents would show up at two o'clock in the morning. I'd look over their shoulder to see, you know, are you doing the renal dosing math right at two o'clock in the morning after you've been out for twenty four hours. Most people do not have an advocate like you living in their hospital room. Right. But we need to allow for that. So one of the things we did it is. We created a PTO Bank. All of us could donate our excess PTO to a Bank, where employees who needed to be with their family, when they are sick or in crisis. Do it without losing to. He was gonna get a secondary disease from the treatment. Yes. And that's what this straight his kidneys, which then I gave them my left kidney in two thousand seven five years later because the that, that cure, when after his kidneys, now, he's thirty three years old. He's got a beautiful daughter and another one on the way and I couldn't be happier for him. How much do you think that medical care cost him? Oh, I know what it was. It was over two million dollars. In the end analysis some of which we had to pay out of pocket. How good was his insurance? It was good. It was good. Very good. Yeah. I you personally also have had an experience with the healthcare system that or the rifle shots as you call it that most people wouldn't tell us about what happened. I, I was skiing with my daughter, I went to check on her. I was going to a high rate of speed. I caught my lot jet. Ski in the tree hit me in the crux of my neck and my left shoulder. I snapped my schedule in half a mass. Rated my breakout plexus, I pulled the nerve root for my left arm outta my spinal cord. And then immediately unconscious, I slip headfirst backwards down into water, where the water ran behind my neck for two hours while they tried to figure out how to get me out of there, and that saved my life because I broke c two c three c five c six t one so the cold water was, what freezing, you funding, the spinal cord from rupturing? I mean I have what you would call a quadriplegic injury. That should have either resulted in death or quadriplegic result. And here I am. I'm walking around with a lot of pain in my left arm all the time. It hurts all the time. It's hurting now never stops on payments. No. Yoga meditation. Chanting. I'm assuming that yoga meditation is not what the doctor ordered. What did they restrict you on? They've tried to payment. So I was on seven different narcotics. For the first year, I was neurotic and kept bra vica, Dan Oxycontin, feno, patches, and allotted for breakthrough pain. Yeah. And never stop the pain. I just didn't care so high all the time. Now lucky for me and give them my experiences in high school and college. I never really had an addictive personality. So I never got hooked on drugs. So I just found it to be, you know, it was like. It was like Charlie Brown's mother and the cartoons when she talked was like while everything was just really weird. Right. And, and so, you know it was recommended to me by. But my wife should get cranial psychotherapy, and so we look for creating a psychotherapist, fine one and going, how does this help and, and? I went for the first visit it was okay taught me something about breathing and managing neuropathy pain fourth. Visit I was like, oh my gosh. This is amazing. I started coming out by drugs and over a period of six months, I was off all metrics. What does that tell you when on the one hand your day job is talking about figuring out the prices all the very drugs that you were prescribed? And here are here's a completely different way to think about your health, that's working for you. The boss of one of the largest healthcare companies in the country. That's why I brought it to work. I said, oh, my gosh. That's amazing. I was doing the cranial psychotherapy, and then I started doing yoga because I couldn't run every morning, and then I got into yoga the spiritual side of it. Whether you punish odds Wagner for Gita all this stuff and sorta got really deep into it and said, you know, we should do this for everybody in the company. And so I came to work. One day, I was the president of the company that times it, let's do yoga meditation for everybody. And they're like, you know he's really hit his head pretty hard. Yup. The CMO that she medical officer comes to me about an hour later and goes, you know this medicine. Right. Everything's crazy. I said, well, Lonnie lending responses name. What do you think line? He I mean what would it take? And he said, well, we have to do a double blind study. So we did a double blind study, heart rate, variability pre imposed looking at, you know, we categorize people I stress quintile, and the highest quintile stress and our company and people are spending fifteen hundred dollars. More your than on healthcare than anybody else in the more stressed? You are the more likely you are to spend on healthcare, and now it's dollars and cents. And so I said, well, let's see what happens. So we did this whole study and, and twelve week program mindfulness and yoga. And. We had a huge drop in heart rate variability of all the employees, but even more. So the people in the top quintile and it paid for itself. So if you're a guy that can do this for his company, and you see the benefits why not lay this out for all of the people who are on your insurance plans. We offered it to all of the people so people will have to want to pay for it, if they buy it, they have to understand the, the trade offs, which we offered it to everybody the biggest problem with the program for a lot of our employers where they didn't have the room or they didn't want to the people at the time off. I even the time during the day to do the hour of their. It was well worth it. Because a paid back our health care costs, dropped seven percent the next year. Which for drop seven percent reduction trend. They dropped seven percent the next year. That's what fifty thousand people. Yeah. You're a guy who has means and we can talk about that. But how has this process taught you from your own life? Your son's life running a company, but all these people that don't have the means to afford this kind of care. I mean getting back to that first question should healthcare, be a basic. Right. How can I afford this? Here's the issue. We have two academies in the United States. Not not Anaconda me, we have a wage economy, and we have a wealth economy. And when you look at basic wages, since nineteen seventy they've been pretty much flat on a real basis. And, and if you're in the wage economy, you haven't gained anything you actually have lost right. Because cost the goods have gone up everything else, and for those in the wealth economy, been able to invest in the market, and best in money market funds, or you know. School funds forever for the kids. They've done really well. And we had this one group of people that we full from nine hundred seventy two two thousand eight. It was called the middle class because they thought they had an ask that, that was a wealth asset. What's called their home? And they use it like a wealth asset, and it wasn't. And when it went away of vast swath of our population fell into that class of just a wage economy. Look, if people are going to say, listen, clearly, you know, that you're part of the wealth economy, right. Since in those past forty years. The average raises has been about eleven percent for the average line worker average, CEO compensations gone up roughly nine hundred percent right. Your exit package out of Aetna's rumored to be around a half a billion dollars. How, how do we reconcile this? I mean, yes, the stock of your company's four times as big when you walked in, and you've increase performance for shareholders, etc. But where do we come to a point where we say, hey guess what, more of my staff need to be paid better? Perhaps it's taking something out of our C level executive pockets and investing back door companies. And that's what we did with our implies when we raise the minimum wage from twelve to sixteen dollars an hour and wiped out healthcare costs for seven thousand employees. We said you know what we've? Got a transfer and we're gonna pay more. So I paid sixty two percent of all my healthcare costs who might premium. We're going to not take raises my senior team to getting raises for four years, and whenever the budget doesn't balance. We'll take it out of the incentive comp. Look for the senior team versus taking out of merit comp for the for the front line. So we did that we made that trade off. Does that help become a more profitable company, because and look at this and say, I don't know about all this all, I want is my shares to go up every quarter generous seconds, two thousand fifteen I announced the roll out of this program was in front of the J P Morgan conference, where two hundred and fifty million of our three hundred seventy million shares were there. And I said, you know, we're doing this. I didn't get one pushback or my shareholders, I got guy got applause from people. And, and it was the beginning of a whole lot more things like the PTO Bank. We now we pay student loans as a company we now, doubled our tuition assistance. We did a lot of things like that to improve the quality of life because we gave the organization permission to take care of one another, and so of the rumored more than half a billion dollars. I got it was all stock that I never sold, so I never trade in the stock my compensation base salary didn't increase. This until the last year. So it was flat the whole time, although it was very Harrison. Yeah. Right. But my stock that I got priced into what my compensation was sat in the company offers and never moved until the deal closed, and more than half of it is now sitting in a foundation, that's focused on education environment and community sustainability is very model of moving away from relying on the federal government to try and triangulate and social and economic uses ecosystems that are so big that they can't do it. They can't move. They just argue with one another and get back to local community and make investments there. Microlending. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Good to see, that's it for our program tonight, but join us tomorrow for an exclusive interview with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin, so wide ranging discussion with the most powerful woman in the world. And it's the first time she sat down with an American news organization but that's it for now. Remember, you can always. This putt. 'cause see us online at I one dot com and follow me on Instagram and Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London. Are you interested in learning? How great companies grow. Download the Martin podcast. The Bartok podcast tells the stories of real world marketers who use technology to generate growth in chief, business and career success from advertising to software as a service to data getting brands authentically integrated, the content performs better than TV advertising. Typical life span of an article is about twenty four to thirty six hours before reaching out to the right person with the right message and a clear. Call an action that it's just a matter of timing. Ready to learn the secrets of technology driven marketing than download the Martin podcast. Just search Martin. M. A. R. T. E C H wherever you download your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bill Kristol ever wonder what the godfather films breaking bad can tell us about the health of the American dream or what it was like to be in the Pentagon nine eleven or how supreme court justices talk to each other, when they get together at a conference. These are the kinds of questions I ask and topics I discussed with guests on my podcast conversations with Bill Kristol subscribe at itunes, wherever you get your podcast. Check out our archive with guests like general David, portrays, David Axelrod, I on her CLE, Ron brownstein and Justice Samuel Alito subscribed today to conversations with Bill Kristol.

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Amanpour: Andrew McCabe, Alex Gibney, Yoruba Richen, and Jay Shetty

Amanpour

56:49 min | 1 year ago

Amanpour: Andrew McCabe, Alex Gibney, Yoruba Richen, and Jay Shetty

"Hello everyone, and welcome to I'm on board. Here's what's coming up. In two thousand, sixteen or sovereignty was violated by a foreign power which found a way to fear in our democratic process. Pulling back the curtain on Russia's agents of chaos that has the US learn anything from interference in the two thousand, sixteen election I asked Oscar winning filmmaker Alex Gibney and former FBI deputy director. Andrew McCabe then. On on. This sitton remembers a groundbreaking week for America when civil rights, activists and trail-blazing Star. Harry Belafonte took over the tonight show bringing black lives into American homes director, your ruble rich and joins me, and if we're looking for a Kinda, more compassionate, more loving world. Then undestanding practices are great cases stone think like among hurry strain of US talks to viral wellness sensation and form among J. Shetty as he says, his peace with the world. Welcome. To the program everyone I'm Christiane Amanpour working. flexi. Friday, from home here in London, it is now just forty six days until the United States holds its election and American voters are increasingly presented with two very different visions for their future and of course, the choice should be up to the American voter. But since two thousand, sixteen, a pernicious and hostile foreign power has also had a hand on the lever of American democracy Russia's. Intelligence campaign against the United States, which is also known colloquially as interference in elections. Last time the FBI and intelligence concluded that Russia favored trump against Clinton, and now the FBI chief says Russia is very actively interfering to denigrate Joe Biden in this one, thousand, nine, hundred thousand election president trump's former intelligence chief Dan Coats warns that this means quote voters also faced the question of whether the American Democratic experiment will. Survive. A new documentary agents have chaos digs deep into this. Here's some of the trailer. The Russians hacked democracy. I've been trying for years to figure out what happened. The US. System depends on trust in democratic institutions benefits if Americans lose that trust. Herb, we do everything we can to make sure that Americans will decide who is running. Two thousand. Sixteen. was three ring circus of election meddling. Russians had been busy making Mr on the Internet. Using fake accounts, fake organizations, and finally they local media. So what is the plan to stop it happening this time round I'm joined now by the film's Director Emmy and Oscar winner Alex Gibney from Summit New Jersey and by former FBI deputy director Andrew McCabe. who features prominently in the film and he's joining us from Quincy Massachusetts Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. It is for quite harrowing hours and meticulously documenting what happened in two thousand sixteen the troll femmes the IRA. so-called in Russia and that campaign can I just I ask you Alex, you called it agents of chaos of the the Russians. A seat is sowing chaos. You also say president trump's brand is chaos. Tell me how you came to that. I mean, ultimately, that was my conclusion in terms of looking at this whole story I think it'd been framed by some people with trump is sort of Manchurian candidate. Captured. By Putin in some unholy arrangement that involved a red phone I, don't think it was anything like that. But I do think that trump was an agent of chaos. In, lot of ways of both in terms of working in a kind of call and response manner with Putin. But also because he knew that his best way to power and fame was too so care. It's part of his brand and and that that you know became away for trying to understand what happened here between trump and Putin. So I said Ira I think that's the International Research Agency of the Russians, which is about the trolling and the hacking. So let you talk about to sort of two lines. One is the trolling and the other is the hacking. They're not exactly the same, but they achieve the same. I would say there's actually three one is the trolling which is. Kind of off the books operation by Putin's chef amended of Guinea promotion through the Internet research agency, and that was using social media to essentially. So discord in the United States where they would literally take both sides with fake accounts of issue to try to so anger and ultimately discussed as part of the process. In fact, in one case document, they literally sent people on both sides of issue to the same street corner to demonstrate against each other the other. Prong number two was the hacking of the various email accounts in specifically the DNC email and also the The John Podesta email accounts that they then released through goose a for two point Oh a a website, which then gave it to Julian assange at wikileaks, and then it was dropped at certain key moments in the campaign. The third which should be of particular concern for us. Today is an attempt to actually infiltrate. Items and we believe that that was done not to switch votes but to so doubt about the outcome and because everyone is soon, pillar is GonNa win in two thousand sixteen. The idea was to amplify those claims by trump which you made in two sixteen and it's still making it two thousand twenty that if he didn't win election would be rigged and so the plan was and the Russians had gotten in all fifty states. The plan was to So enough doubt after the fact by corrupting data that people would be convinced that the election. Had Been Re. So Andrew McCabe you figure prominently in this documentary 'cause being in the FBI being around this whole affair trying to look into it. Can I just I ask you because I think everybody wants to know what I mean. Do you think that there's any inauguration today? How worried are you that what they did then is going to happen again this time and maybe even. More sophisticated. Well, Christine I'm very concerned as I'm sure our intelligence and law enforcement professionals here in the United States are concerned as well I. Think there is some value to the so-called inoculation effect and that is simply the fact that we've been talking about this that investigative efforts like those at the FBI and the Internet and the the intelligence community assessment that talked about this activity, and then of course, the special counsels work. Those things have at least raised this in the minds of many Americans that this is possible but I think there are a number of really bad signs that we've already heard our intelligence professionals talk about in this election cycle, we know in two thousand sixteen. The Russians. Had three goals. It was too. So chaos and to and to further divide us, their second goal was to hurt the campaign of Hillary Clinton, who they saw as being more adverse to Russian interests in the third goal is to help the campaign of Donald Trump so far according to what we've heard from intelligence officials as recently as yesterday when Directorate testified, we've got those first two goals already checked off we know that the Russians from what the director said are engaged in a massive disinformation campaign on social media. So that sounds very similar to the activity in two thousand sixteen. The directory also indicated that their intent is to damage the candidacy of Joseph Biden. So I think that's two out of three and we still have over a month to go I think there's a lot of reason to be concerned about what the Russians have in store for us between now and the election. I WANNA play a little soundbite from a little bit clip from the from the documentary is essentially I'm David Hickson. Now talking he's a US attorney. He's a cyber security expert who you interview and he's talking about how Russia was able to harmonize its attacks with the trump campaign taken listen. He's laying down the STORY SHOULD HE LOSE WHY There's always the plan B. is this a pattern Mr Trump? If he starts losing, he starts lashing out and calling the system rigged. There was even a time when he didn't get an EMMY FOR HIS TV program three years in a row and he started tweeting the emmys were rigged a sugar this. This is a mindset. The system is totally rigged. And Broken I the issue of voter fraud. On social media. Rushing trolls harmonized with trump chorus voter fraud. Rigged Election They were amping up their game. And deciding that they couldn't lose no matter who won the election. If, they discredited the process. So let's just take a minute. Russia could not lose no matter who want. Andrew First. How'd you any idea when you were starting to look into this? You know in the last election cycle that it was this sophisticated. I mean what surprises you I guess in what Alex is uncovered how it actually worked. Well what surprised me the most I think in reviewing the film how much Alex and his colleagues have uncovered it's incredibly detailed particularly on the lead up to the election, all of the activity that we saw in. Russia, as early as the end of twenty fourteen and then through twenty fifteen. So to answer your question, we did see Russian maligned cyber activity activity that we thought was focused at. Institutions political institutions, academic institutions, doing the sorts of things that Russian intelligence cyber actors typically do probing systems looking for data sometimes getting into cybersystems actually exfiltrated. was what they were going to do with that data and we didn't see that will they weaponized the information they had stolen from the DNC clearly to undermine the prospects of one of the candidates in the campaign being Hillary Clinton that was something that surprised us. And I think the rest of the world. Incredibly we've never seen such an active shot right at our democracy in an actual attempt to influence the results of the election with material that had been stolen from a cyber attack that was brand new house. And Attics. I thought it was really remarkable how you sort of laid out the Russians were not attacking Hillary Clinton's policies because they could see that they were broadly popular with a broad majority of mainstream America. They went after this email thing that the press was focused on. How how did that work mean? How did they just decide oh? My goodness we can't go against her that, but we can. We can sure as hell keep this thing in the spotlight. Well, I think it goes back to what Andrew and what we were talking about before. I mean it was effectively to sow chaos. You're not looking to advance a particular policy you're looking to smear somebody and. Hillary's greatest weakness in two thousand sixteen was the word email. She was just associated with people have done studies about that. Hillary and email were connected as concepts and so what better thing than through release emails? Discredit Hillary Clinton, which not only show her in a bad light I mean you know the DNC. Did reflect you know real problems in in our democratic process in the sense that the DNC was putting its finger on the scale against Hillary and against Bernie Sanders and for Hillary. But, also, you know leaking the John Podesta emails. This reverberates because Hillary Clinton is involved herself in an email investigation and then donald trump goes one step further. Calling for Russia itself to. Hack into Hillary's email account. To find some missing emails, which by the way, Russia tries to do you know only four hours after trump asked them to. So so it was really a it's like a Cheshire cat operation. I. Mean They were having Putin I think and and those in Russia must have been having a ball. It wasn't really attacking sears policy issues is an attempt to smear the Clinton campaign. Can I ask you because I hadn't realized it's not working in the united. States is not being on a presidential campaign that one of her key advisers Jake Sullivan interview him did actually in two thousand sixteen make the rounds of the major news organizations to tell them what they had discovered. About interference and and about you know about what was happening and tell me what you what was the what was the reaction from news organizations to this warning from inside the Hillary Clinton campaign. Extremely skeptical. They. Thought it was a kind of special pleading. Kinda. Way Of excusing mistakes that they may have been making or or trying to deflect from You know relationships that have been brought up by by these emails. I think that reflects a broader problem in terms of what happened in two thousand sixteen, which is that the administration the Obama Administration was extremely reluctant to make public what it knew about Russian interference I think in part. In. Large part because they assume it Hillary Clinton was going to win which is deeply ironic in retrospect. You. Know people have asked over and over again why President Obama you've just said part of it are Alex y President Obama didn't confront the Russians and didn't make it public in much much much more serious way andrew do you think there was a failure of leadership then I mean Surely this is something so vital that you have to put aside politics and talk about the security on the national security of your country. Well Do. Unfortunately like most of these issues, it's much easier in hindsight to go to look back and say, well, we should have decided otherwise you know a month earlier or six weeks earlier or something like that. The fact is we talked a lot at the National Security Council and the principles and deputies meetings about whether or not. The government should go forward publicly and make a statement about what we saw was happening. And we discussed whether or not. That would have the sort of inoculation effect that we discussed earlier but the problem was. The feeling the opposition going forward was the feeling that if the president went forward and talked about the fact that we that he felt that candidate Clinton was being targeted, it would look. It would look as if he were trying to influence the political outcome of the election rather than just letting the two candidates, fight it out. So it's It's A. It's an impossible conundrum to sort through at the moment plus you of course, you have all the challenges of how much of what you know. Can you actually say without exposing how you know what you know that's the the. Challenge with talking about intelligence. Highly classified very sensitively collected intelligence in any circumstance. So it was an incredibly. Fraught series of meetings and conversations. Ultimately, they decided to go forward to notify Congress and make a public statement I. Think by the time they decided to do that the opportunity to have it positively impact what was happening had been lost weeks and weeks earlier. Mantovani up on not just. Very briefly. So two things on that, what is I must say does as a member of the press rather member of the intelligence community. It always drives me crazy this whole issue of sources methods I understand the need to protect sources and methods very often. I wonder like what is the point of intelligence? It's at some point you can't disclose in broad form, the American public number one, number two, the other culprit in this affair is really the the Republican leadership because there was a point at which the administration went to Mitch McConnell and Ryan. And try to get them to release a bipartisan statement with need to say that, you know we are concerned that we're under attack or the elections being interfered with by foreign power has nothing to do with our alternate goals. But McConnell decided not to go along because Russia was doing behalf. His candidate, which is terrible advocation principally, and so that really did. Feather into this. Well I I want to play another clip because it goes again to the question I started out. You know is this country your country doing as much as it can to make sure this doesn't happen again. So here is Andrew Weisman, who interviewed he's the lead prosecutor for the Muller, Investigation Now report has one. She, finding. Clear. UNEQUIPPED call. Efforts by the Russian government change fear with their election. The issue that goes to the core democracy is. Are We. Doing everything we can to make sure that Americans will decide. Who is running this country? Loss where to you, Andrew McCabe all we doing are you doing is America doing everything? It can to make sure that Americans are in charge of their own destiny. Well, I certainly hope. So I think that our intelligence and law enforcement agencies have learned a lot from the experience in two thousand, sixteen, I'm sure they're bringing that knowledge to their efforts in twenty twenty but the Russians learned a lot in two thousand sixteen as well and the gap is always do we know what they know? Do we know where they are we know what they're going to try to do. And I think that any intelligence professional would tell you. We probably don't have a lot of confidence that we know what's coming in the next few weeks and it also add that on the legislative side we absolutely have not done enough. There is no question that this is a problem larger than the intelligence agencies larger than the FBI. It is one that we need. Congress to get behind. US and give us. And do with authorities do regulations to the campaigns and the electoral process, and they have very clearly not done that in the last four years. Is. Really Sobering Viewing Andrew McCabe filmmaker Alice gibney thank you so much agents of chaos. The documentary is airing on Hbo Max it Starts September Twenty third and twenty fourth. You have big plans for you eating well, losing weight and living a healthy lifestyle. That's the goal. But this stuff is tough and it's easy to feel like you don't have what it takes to change. Here's the secret though it's all in your head in Neum can help you how to unlock it based in psychology neum empowers you with the wisdom to understand the why behind your decisions so you can make healthier ones here is how it works I. GO TO NEUM DOT COM slash CNN news an answer a few easy questions about your health and weight loss goals, and then start naming neum will help change your relationship with food and it conveniently fits into your life. So you can look up recipes, read an article and log your meal anytime anywhere sign up for your trial today by visiting Neum n o o m COM slash CNN news change your thinking, Change Your Habits and change for good with neum. Now the closest America came to the partisan political and racial turmoil of today was back in one, thousand, nine, six, eight, the Vietnam War was raging unrest gripped American cities and there was a divisive election campaign amid all of this though came one transformative week when civil rights activist and superstar Harry Belafonte took over the tonight show sitting in for the legendary. Johnny Carson, for five nights he brought the beauty and the brilliance of black America into Middle America's living rooms. It was the very first time that happened it might be the greatest story never told until now because most of the footage was destroyed a documentary team, the thrilling story here's a clip from the trailer. Harry Belafonte takes an existing white institution and he turns it into something that represents his word. There are many sides to parallel frontier singer actor activist Harry had legend, and he had the people back in. This. Field. In. AM The mist of the most critical gary down. Nation You see how? This week. What's? That was be most revolutionary. That mainstream television could've done at. The. City in. Ponte host. The tonight show's is directed by Uruba rich and and she joins me now from New York, it is incredible just to see that Clip Uruba. Of of just what was going on and nobody really knew about it it's extraordinary that that footage was destroyed. Just tell me about what that means. It was such a highly rated week of programming to. Thank you Christiane it's great to be on? Yeah it's pretty incredible that only. An Hour. That we exist the half hour with Martin Luther King, Reverend Martin Luther King and with Robert Kennedy and you know what it means in terms of how it's remembered as that a lot of people don't remember it because the footage was taped over and so it's a real loss of You know all the amazing guests that were on that week everybody from Lena Horne Diane Carol. Warwick aretha Franklin I mean how amazing would it have been to see these superstars who are also activists sitting down with their friend Harry Belafonte in one of the most. Decisive years both politically and culturally. So we're so grateful what we do have, but it certainly a loss and he really tried to recreate what that week was as much as possible with the other archive footage and with Harry. And some of the other guests you're so the guests are so with us I'm telling us about it. Yeah. It is amazing story as unfolds in the documentary really amazing and I want to start slightly at the beginning because it's Johnny Carson that had the idea. Here's Johnny Carson. This incredibly successful middle, America TV late-night host and he also realizes that something is going on in the country but he feels that he can't do it. Himself just fill that inference speaks volumes about Johnny, Carson as well. Absolutely. You know it's. How could anybody not are realize that something was happening in this country that was very big and consequential and Johnny had the foresight to know that you know that he wasn't the person that could. Bring this bring all these issues to light. In a way that was both informative entertaining and So kudos to Johnny for recognizing that and she felt that Harry was the only person who could do it. Harry was at that time and for many years a huge. Star, he was a star on stage as an actor and singer. He was a star on screening as an actor and singer as well. Really the first one of the first like Multi Hyphen it entertainers of of the twentieth century. So Johnny recognized that and recognize that Harry was the one who could do it bring these big issues to a mainstream audience both black and white, and could also be entertaining. Yeah because it wasn't just politics as you said, it was art as well, but all led to. This massive moment that was going on, and of course of the great political names, he was able to secure Martin Luther King he was his friend he was fellow activist. We're GONNA play a clip minute in a minute but I just want you to the story of how when he told you know he told the Bras that he had secured Dr King what their response to that was. Yes. So Harry was able to create his own guest list and had who wanted to have on when he told the higher ups that. Dr King is GonNa be on they said, they reportedly said. He's not GonNa talk about that civil rights stuff is he? And Harrison well. What him. To. Do Singer Song. So. Yeah. There was obviously some fear from the higher ups about what they were going to get into that night. I mean it's just hilarious to to hear that I'm going to play a little clip because this is a that part of what survives. Harry's talking to Dr Martin Luther King. Unlike the coverage papers and on TV too. This is a different side of. Dr Chief He's relaxed. He was smiling. Here hauer and apparently one of the reasons I'm so happy to be here. I grew out of Washington is afternoon and. As soon, as we started out, they notified us at the plane. Had Mechanical difficulties and I don't want to give you impression that as a baptist preacher. Don't have faith in God in the is simply that I've had more experience with him on the ground. I was kind of news that he knew how to get laughed at something that you don't see in his speeches because so serious I was like. Oh You can tell a good you. HAVE IN STORE SUMMIT? Failed A. Mist of most critical care in our nation. And the economic problem. Is probably the most serious from Confronting Negro community and for people in general is new project that very weak was the poor people's campaign. Of the Civil Rights Movement itself will have to give way to something much more profound economic rights but bringing people together in a much more fundamental way or on issues that affected everybody. Just. Is extraordinary that clip for the laughter. that he got out, of Dr King and then. Serious again about just gentle probing to get you know. The depth of of the need regarding confronting poverty. Yeah absolutely I mean which so fascinating to me is that when he had Dr King on Dr, King was in the middle of. Launching his oracles campaign, which was really a different direction than he had You know traditionally been going at it the traditional. Early sixties mid sixties movement was going in and Dr. King was really trying to bring all groups together of low income. Folks or a black white. Asian? Native Americans. And he was getting a lot of criticism for it. He's been a lot of criticism for it. I'm he was also getting criticism from the more militant side of the civil rights movement, the Stokely, Carmichael, and snick. So he was in a real a real You know interesting place that Dr King was in when he appeared on the show but I also see that you see him telling that joke and smiling and. Chatting it up with Paul Newman next to him the relaxed nature that he had when he was with Harry because they were so close. I was going to ask you about that and just remark on that because that whole lineup on the couch, they were all African American. There was one white guy there and that was Paul Newman mega simple stuff. You never see that usually it's one African American and a whole load of white people that died itself must have been just. An amazing vision. For for the public to see, absolutely, I mean one one, one of our commentators says in the film, we forget how segregated television was at the time and and you know to have exactly as you said, the couch bill with African American. You know entertainers and celebrities, and then Paul Newman be the one you know the one white guy is pretty pretty incredible and you know a Paul Newman. Now we will bump Paul Newman to be the one guy on the couch with us. Yeah, his heart, and his art were all in the right place Let me just say something you this fifteen to twenty five guests that we were African American and Harry Belafonte managed to get control of the of the guests. He was his own booker. He was able to put who you wanted on that programme and in the film and I'm going to quote here Whoopi Goldberg says. The impact of that. We're here we're Americans part of this. We're not going anywhere. You all brought us. Now we're now we're here. So get into your bed. Let Belafonte be the last thing you see before you go to sleep. How did people before they went to sleep take this what was the ratings? What was the commentary around it? Christiane that's my favorite line in film. So happy you read that. that. Is So. Good. So. We know that it was very high ratings. So obviously people watch and they watch you know throughout the week. He was daddy said, Harry was was a big star that. So that's GonNa be a big draw and he was a star in all kinds of communities. All kinds of racial communities because that's how Harry was not just black and white indigenous. Agent Latino, etc.. And internationally. So. Also remember that there were only three channels at that time. So you know you you you only have three choices and the ratings were so high and obviously a lot of people chose to watch that week but there's also some criticism as well. People felt that. They didn't WANNA be preached to there some scathing TV reviews. And some letters. Show that what he was doing was pretty radical and people some people weren't ready for it. Let's play a little bit of the clip, which is where he's being interviewed by Johnny Carson after his week and they're doing a little sort of recap. Just a month after Harry's hosting gig Johnny. Carson had him back on the tonight show to talk about it you'd be. A couple of nights a time. World. reconized. We ended the Brady's lodge was open. And the open the largest in the history of the show. Say. Each and every member of. The world of making come to Keep. So couch full page and variety thanking the entire staff and all the guests that were on the show and it did say I enjoyed might sit in on the. Have a great week which you lay back and have fun. Too, long you never know that in the beginning no. I also got a number of letters testing. They didn't want to be preached to people came there to be entertained. We consciously. Put before the public. Or the issues they saw during the past week. With an Array Harry. They would never heard. And Uruba, he also said in a statement, all of this was consciously arranged by me to give you all a taste of what's being said in rooms that many of you may not know or enter. Thank you for listening. So that was a pretty amazing postscript as well. Can I just ask you all because you're also involved in the film about the documentary along with mean group Mini Kelly Marci about about Brianna Taylor and her killing tell me about you know about that film about what it says and how you think that is being resolved what all this says. The Harry's week, you know fifty odd years later we we still having this. Terrible. Racism going on on the streets. Yeah it's really incredible that the homes came out within a week of each other. I, mean the Harry film I'd been working on We've been working on that for for eight months the Briana Taylor film, the killing of retailer, which is on streaming on Hulu and fx on demand that came about this summer obviously and I directed the film I worked with Rick. meany do sir and the reporter and we. Knew that we wanted to get out the film as as soon as possible because there are so many questions around her death around her killing why no one was being held responsible and for sure I mean one of the things that we see in Harry's comb and he talks about this at the end he says, I've been in this game for ninety some odd years and what is it? Why is still happening and you kind of looked to be on on what what has happened what happened to her her killing by by police that we are in many ways have not. Solved these issues around racism around police brutality. One of the things that I think is interesting that they've talked about this year of uprise is some uprising that mlk's a Martin Washington speech he talks about police brutality they never play that art though you know he talks about you said, he's he says, we will never be free until we are free from retaliation from the police. So this has been a long time issue. We know this Now there's you know footage sometime case there wasn't footage and you know we have reached hopefully a boiling point. Where this stuff has to stop. And Briana 's case. was just going to say Brianna, its case they've recently. Earlier this week they came to a settlement with the city but the officers you know the result of the investigation we are still waiting for So you know it's still ongoing. Thank you so much indeed for joining us really a great film. Hi I'm Christian homes I've covered campaigns, Capitol Hill, the White House and everything Washington for CNN but nothing tops the importance of this upcoming election and my job is to help you make sense of it. All welcome to election one. Oh one we'll figure out the electoral process together. All Talk to experts, historians and some of you. Yes, this election year is different and this is a different kind of podcast you can listen to election one. Oh, one starting September sixteenth on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, picture having just graduated from college and turning down job offers to become a monk. This is exactly what our next guest did Jay Shetty is now a self help coach and host of the health and wellness podcast on purpose drawing on his experience living and studying in an Ashram in India, and he wants you to think like among to in a new book about training your mind for this modern world and he tells a Hari Sreenivasan. We all hold the key to living better. Thanks, Christiane J. Shatti. Thanks for joining us. Now this is A. Going to be a little strange people because if they google you, they're gonNa say this guy is all over social media on facebook on instagram he's all over the place. Got A podcast. And why is he talking about thinking like this is actually if they don't know your history, this is stuff that you picked up when you actually were living as a monk for three years. Absolutely. So I was born and raised in London. But the three years that I spent living as a monk I almost see them as school and then the last seven years I left I've been trying to practice an experiment test, the principles and lessons that I learned among school and everything that I shared this book offerings that I've experimented with things tested things that have tried out and have supported in served me and many others that I've worked within the law seven years. And so I really wanted to share a step by step guide to some of these incredible teachings in the wisdom I came across because when I first learned about them, I was fascinated that we didn't have access to these. We don't have a class call mind class. We don't have a closet school could understand your emotions and this is what I was. So fascinated by an wanted to share in a way that was relevant and accessible and practical, and hopefully site entertaining to. And you said in the book that it's not just possible to think like a monk, but it's necessary. Why is it necessary? I think we live in a world today where we're overwhelmed with noise Ri- We know that whether it's notifications whether it's emails whether it's messages whether it's invites whatever it may be we all get. Inundated overwhelmed with requests and so we're living in a high paced high energy environment and the monks minds not only from my experience in really it's beyond the three years I spend their. Intriguing completely in all of monk's brains that have been scanned and showed the highest form of gamma waves which linked to happiness, joy and attention. So for me if we're looking for a kinder more compassionate, more loving world than undestanding monks, practices are a great place to start because they're dedicated their lives to cultivating this mindset. You you talk about the monk mind versus the monkey mind and. When I look down that list few things disciplined. That would be the monk mind distracted. That would be the monkey mind breaks down negatives. The Monk Mind amplifies negatives that would be the monkey mind looks for meaning versus looks for pleasure single tasking versus multitasking. I am firmly living in a monkey mind world I mean all of the rewards. Are Given to people who can do more things with less time. And it seems like. Society around US doesn't. Our ability to just stay single minded focus our ability to stay not distracted. Yes I would say that the monkey mind rewards us in a short term and unsustainable way, and that's really somehow why we see the D-. Governor, that way that sometimes we know that we do this, we'll get instant gratification or an instant result instant pleasure. But then we long-term Bernau we see long-term stress we see the long-term. Fragmentation of relationships and families, and so for me, it's really rewiring ourselves up for long term joy and long term success, and that requires this transition from the monkey mind as as you really well explained to the Monkey Mind and that journey is an easy but it's so important if we want to hold onto identing as anyone in the world who wants to reach somewhere and not be able to keep it, not savor it not accept it and and truly allow it to be a part of their lives. So studies have shown us that. very few people in the world can multitask and we think multitasking with doing more. But research shows that single tasking makes us more productive, effective and creative. So almost we've created the wrong representations of what we think something's going to achieve as well. When statistically into research, which very much the opposite. So let's talk a little bit about the practice. You go out of your way in the book to say listen you're you. You don't have to shave your head and go live in an Ostrom for years to figure this out. What is something that we can do? I guess what? Starting tonight either were today what were your wake-up behaviors? You're good night behaviors. What is the way that you can start to rewire your brain I? Think one of the biggest things for me is how we wake up in the morning and I read a study that said around eighty percent of US look at our phones first thing in the morning before we see all partners and lasting at the night after we see our partners and so for me, that's a really big challenge because we're saying. No one wakes up and says, I want a negative day or no one wakes up and says I really hope I start my day in the negative. Now, what happens is, let's say you start your day at zero. Let's first arguments said you started at neutral and you wake up and you look at your phone and your bombarded by news notifications, media, all of this you now starting your day in the negative you're at like a minus five you spend the whole day just trying to get back tomato minus two zero. Let's say you switch those habits and there are four key habits that are recommended. The book that can be done just for five minutes a day to begin with and then expand as you gain some confidence and courage they come in the form of the acronym time T. I n. e., these four habits are not only monk hobbits, but scientifically proven to have a positive impact on minds embodies. So the T. Stanford thankfulness when we take a moment when we wake up in the morning to be thankful to one person. Not. Just a feeling of gratitude but also to express that gratitude one that gratitude is expressed in a personalized specific way not only does the receiver gauge joy but we also get a deep sense of joy as well. So finding time to be thankful is such an important trait and not just feeling it now journaling but it sharing it and saying the ice dance inspiration or insight. One of the reasons why we feel stuck in life or we feel like we haven't moved is because we don't for growing and learning. Now, if someone's listening to a podcast reading a book or getting an insightful reading their favorite quote or paragraph prey when they wake up first thing in the morning that's great. Grounding habit to make us feel like we're starting our day already moving forward. The third one is an for meditation. Now, meditation is all out there and people hear about it and tried it maybe don't know if it's for them for me at the core level of it meditation at its essence is just being. Present with your body and mind. So awesome how time do you take a week just to spend with yourself and even if that is five minutes a day or ten minutes a day, just allowing by buddy and mind communicate with you and understand it DEEPA and e probably the most obvious ones exercise and whether the exercise for us the gym treadmill or whether it's a sport or Don's party, the movement part of our lives. So important of course, for US Yoga was the biggest bedrock. But even if it's not yoga, any form of movement is powerful for you. So those will be full focal habits that I would start trying to implement in your day. Just ask yourself every day have I may time thankfulness in ration- Meditation Exercise. And you also talk a lot about just. Practice with your breath. Why is that important and what is? So. I'm a big believer in when I went to among school it was one of the first lessons that we were taught that ah breath is something that stays with us from the moment we're born to the moment we leave and a- breath is off. So deeply interconnected to every emotion we experience in our life. So even if it's a positive emotion, we say things like that's breathtaking or that took my breath away and if something's a negative emotion or wearing, and Ziobro nervous or late. Let me catch my breath. Let me take a breath and so breath is interconnected whether we feel sad or happy. What changes our breathing pattern which means breath is interconnected to our emotional state and so when we learned to really understand and navigate gate breath, we start being able to truly guide ourselves through the multiple emotions that we feel in a day. So that's breath is so. Important and it's crazy. The athletes musicians are all trained in their breath and their practice to use their breast effectively. But in our own ways we're we're all athletes in our own lives in different areas, and therefore we need that training as well. You talk about a situation when if you're if you get angry and a lot of people do lots of little things in life that. It only takes a breath to bring you back. Yeah I. Feel a lot of us try and manage anger when we feel angry and that's not always habit. It's like it's like being on the pitch for the court on the weekend at the playoffs. It's like being on the court and trying to learn the this the skill on the court. It's very difficult and so what I do recommend is that we try and trap and deeply understand anger offline anger actually is a great signal for some deep pain we have. So we can unpack that, but if we are an angry state we are. About to have you know and this is the crazy thing about anger, we say things we don't mean to people we deeply love. It's really important at that point to breathe in for account to four and breathe out for more than four. This will slow you write down and bring you back into alignment, and that's what really emotions are emotions a win win out of alignment, and so bringing ourselves back into alignment with our breath allows us to come from a more centered space you walked into this monkhood voluntarily you were drawn to it. You're interested in it. You say you fell in love with. In a way why did you leave? The biggest reason I left was I through all that self awareness training came to the realization that my path was not to be a monk and that sometimes the hottest thing, and you may not have that from becoming a monk but maybe you worked your whole life to become a lawyer and then after ten years Loiseau. So you know what noise isn't for me or maybe works in the corporate world and he said you know finances and for. Me and so we will get to places my life and I was like I learned so much through my monk life but realism not meant to be a Monka I, want to be someone who's out in the world sharing these insights connected to society, and still trying to keep that balance I enjoy the challenge of trying to stay true to my monk foods in a noisy world and that's something that helps me want to go deeper and. Deeper and so that was a deep realization and at the same time, my teaches obviously also saw that in May because at the time day recommended that I leave so I could share what I learned. So it was almost like a break up. And at the time, it definitely wasn't. Full. Of Hope, I didn't have this grand vision or idea or or anything would go I was stuck and lost and confused. But that's when all of my monk wisdom came to the rescue and and that's what I'm trying to share an awful with to everyone today. I wonder right now A lot of people are anxious for so many different things you've got fires in one part of the United. States. You've got floods in another. Just. Fears whether it's the pandemic whether it's not coming election result And really even. Collective. Selfishness that we might be witnessing. When so many of those? Big problems that we don't have any individual control over are around us. How does among find a center a steadiness? That's a really beautiful questionnaire in also. I think you're so right and my love and compassion goes out to everyone who's Deeply, pain or any challenge there in right now you know everyone's lost something in some people lost someone and so it's really important that we come from a place of kindness and compassion and don't devalue anyone's law. So belittle anyone's pain because I think that be really tough right now when you feel guilty because you feel someone's struggling more than you but you also have to honor the pain and accept it and understand it, and that's an important starting place. But monks find said Cynthia nonsense and Times through service when we Extend ourselves to serve help support someone else. This doesn't mean with fixing their problems. It doesn't mean that we can solve their problems. It doesn't mean that we're going to eventually just remove everyone's problems. The being an ear that people can talk to being a supportive of their children and their education being someone who delivers groceries to their door. There are countless ways in which when we extend ourselves for others who may be on the front line, who may have less than we have right now who may be elderly and more. There are so many opportunities to serve when we choose to serve and extend ourselves, and by the way serve in the way we can, and the way you serve may not solve everything. The way I served may not solve everything, but it's going to help someone and what's important about it when we take on service we get perspective. Receive gratitude and it starts to fill US up and it makes us feel a pot of making a difference even if it doesn't solve everything whether it's capitalism or whether it's systematic kind of structural racism that exists I, mean the United States and really part of the world are now facing this reckoning that is bringing to light some of the gross inequities that we're just seeing play out in front of our eyes How How do we tackle that in a monk mindset? I mean, what is the thing that Americans need to get to? Two. In themselves see that they are part of either the problem or the solution. When it comes to these systemic forces, I think it begins with a deep sense of stillness and space for introspection election. One of the biggest challenges we have right now is that people don't have the time and the space or don't Feo. Enthusiastic to make the time in this space in their life to really introspective reflects because all of this is deep work and it's not going to be solved by a tweet it's not going to be solved by a post. It's it's requires us to really go deep within ourselves and ask ourselves are we a part of the problem? Are we a part of the solution? Where do we fit what is our perspective and that's game just by reading lots of articles? or or just consuming information it's by research by deep dives into studies and books and looking at history, and then going away and having time and space to make on mind up and I do believe that it's important as as parents as partners. CEO's whatever role we plan society to take time and space true for long our perspective on these important themes and topics because otherwise all perspective is just made up of noise and that's why we feel distracted or. We don't feel we have much to add in these conversations and so I really feel the monk mindset in there is to hear to listen from from opposing sides and ideas, and then go away with that and sit with that and we may. Have time to our time to do everything else in life. And that very well may be true and I completely empathize with the lack of time. But at the same time I, think we have to do it for future generations. If we'RE NOT GONNA do it for ourselves, we have to do it for our children. We have to fraud children's children because if they don't see us doing that and they're going to repeat all of our mistakes, all of our challenges, and so I think it's really important that even if we can't do it for ourselves, families or friends that we extend ourselves to think about. In the world that they're going to be raised in and they're going to try and influence and J shanty. The book is called think like a monk on the New York Times bestseller lists now thanks unless you're joining us. Thank you so much such a pleasure and so grateful for your questions. Thank you. Dare I say food for thought then and finally tonight from the mind of a monk to the heart of a machine corona virus cases in India surge past five million this week making it the second worst hit country in the world after the United States. Now, an unlikely ally is joining the front lines of this pandemic in the city of Noida her name is metro, which means friend in Hindi Prowling Hospital wards with her inquisitive stare. She uses facial recognition technology to remember her patients while tablet of fixed to her chest opens a window for the sick to see their loved ones as they recover in the same way Mitri the robot even helps doctor's monitor patients from a safe distance. And that is it for us finale, you can always catch US online on our podcast and across social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

Harry Belafonte United States Hillary Clinton Russia Donald Trump Johnny Carson FBI America Alex Gibney Reverend Martin Luther King trump Andrew McCabe DNC Putin London Joe Biden president Congress
Amanpour: Rear Admiral David Titley (Ret.), Julianne Moore, John Turturro and Amy Webb

Amanpour

56:55 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Rear Admiral David Titley (Ret.), Julianne Moore, John Turturro and Amy Webb

"This CNN podcast is brought to you by American Express, my credit guide a free credit score. And report and other tools to help you take charge of your credit. Your credit score is greater than a number. It's your story. Hello everyone. And welcome to I'm on poor. His what's coming up? Don't he'd know the ministry on climate change, Mr President, so say dozens of foam security officials in a letter to the White House we hear from one of the signatories retired. We Admiral David Titley then yet. Hollywood stars Julianne Moore and John Turturro as the dating DeVos as looking for love in Gloria bell, plus all the titans of artificial intelligence shortchanging future. Futurist Amy Webb talks about this with our Hari, strain of arson. Awesome. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. It's clear that some of the Trump administration's more maverick ideas and actions, sparking significant counter reactions more than fifty full military and intelligence officials have written to the president criticizing plan to counter the government's own findings on climate change the signatories which include rear admirals and major generals admonish the White House about his plan to establish at hog group to scrutinize federal reports, including the recent climate report which warned that global warming will hammer the US economy and kill thousands of American citizens by the end of the century. The open letter also says US national security will be rooted if government scientists are subject to politics retired Rear Admiral, David Titley was once a climate change sceptic, but he signed the letter he. He was chief Oceana graphic OC inaugura for the navy and ran its taskforce on climate change. And is now a board member of the center for climate and security and he's joining me from Richmond Virginia Rear Admiral Titley, welcome to the program. Thank you very much Christiane to be. So look this is quite a significant step. I mean, normally the ministry and security officials stay in lockstep. They you know, they serve their country, and they don't come out in dozens and dozens like you have to criticize warn the administration. What was it that that forced your hand? So to speak will really you're exactly right. This is really a partisan issue. And what concerns so many of us who signed the letter is this is a blatant attempt by the national Security Council to to politicize the security aspect of climate change. And if they are successful it really puts a chill, no pun intended into the department of defense. The intelligence community are you US science agencies into even trying to talk. I would say speak truth to power about the risks of climate change to our security. What do you mean specifically, I mean, we've all read, but maybe we need to be reminded of the latest climate report that was done by the federal agencies, and it was the government's own report. And this is to push back from the administration was specific issues. Are you concerned that you say being you know, sort of influenced by political whims and ideology? So this has been an evolving stories. I'm sure many of your viewers know originally about three weeks ago, the administration specifically the national Security Council wanted to basically revisit and frankly in their memo's said in an adversarial sense the link between climate change and security, which is being very well established things of evolved since then. And now, it looks like the national Security Council wants to in fact, open up really all of the period viewed science one hundred and fifty years of peer reviewed science. And that's just frankly, it's it's kind of kind of crazy that we think that three guys in two beers are going to overturn a over a century of peer reviewed science care reviewed by thousands of individuals by eighty countries national academies of science. So that's that's sort of just wrong on the facts the risks of climate change. I really think of them. In three ways, we are changing the very operating environments in which our forces are going to have to have to be successful. In fact, the commander of all US forces in the European theater? General Scotty was just testifying before congress about how the changes to climate in the Arctic or changing what Russia is able to do. And that in turn is changing what his command has to plan the threats to our basis and to our training ranges to our infrastructure. Not only from rising seas and storm surge, but also freshwater too many hot and humid days that impair training, wildfires and droughts. And finally, there's a geostrategic impact on climate change where a climate impact when combined with bad governance or poor governance or insufficient governance can tip an already unstable or fragile situation. And frankly, make it a catastrophe a humanitarian catastrophe in security catastophe. And I would argue that. Syria is kind of a poster child for that. Well, I'm gonna dig down some into some of that in a moment because whether it's Syria or Central America where you see people fleeing and this conflict and from Central America oversee coming to the United States and causing a huge Fussell with the border, but just to be clear. The latest latest climate report was finding some thirteen departments energy defends NASA State Department excetera, you re Admiral talk directly to the threats to the navy's, you know, give us some specifics of what you most concerned about. I know you talked about Russia and its ability to take advantage of melting is we've seen the leaders at the US naval base Norfolk Virginia very concerned about what will happen to their base if the seas rise, but from from your perspective having been in the navy and have you been around the world, what are some of the other risks? Not taking the seriously. Well, the overall risk Christiane is is the very operating environment in which we we all work in which we live is changing. It's changing rapidly. It's changing before our eyes. So the very sort of the highest level of concern that we have here for the Pentagon is this is really about being ready. It's about being ready for the future. Whether that's for an opening Arctic with it. That's to make sure that our bases. And our training ranges can still be affective. Whether that's for preparing for future conflicts that we might not have had otherwise had climate change not being not being sort of that that forcing function that tipping point. So we need to be ready for the intelligence community. It's identifying risks. That's really what they try to do is they try to get ahead, and they try to identify risks and threats so that we can manage them. We have options we have we have maneuver room if you will. And if we cannot ident-. The threats, and if the Pentagon is hamstrung politically from being ready for a changing environment that impairs our security that imperils our security, and this is why we had so many distinguished both civilians and retired military officers signed the letter mentioned so again, I'm going to get into the war in Syria, and what some people also say extremists can be recruited because of climate change. When there's not enough water when agriculture and villages lose their crops and their livestock. Well, then they are very vulnerable to being recruited for bit of money by the extremists. And we understand that. That's is a lot of what happened in Syria and Iraq, but I wanna get back to why is it then here in the United States America. This government's own dia warning which talked about the great impact of the US economy and to use lives within the next foreseeable future is being so deliberately. Attacked by the administration to the point that, you know, you have this White House adviser William happe-, you know, he is possibly going to play a key role. Amid this hasn't actually fully been green lit yet. I don't I don't think this challenge. But he for instance, founded the CO two coalition which says carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is good for the planet. I just wanna play a little a little it's kind of like a PSA. For this movement. Let's just play. What if there was something that could make plants group Baker and something that can make the whole world greener all those pre aids can feed the world. What is it was invisible? We would never run out of. Wow. Look at that see to THEO to Puno. CO two mazing CO. Two is essential. See for yourself at CO, two coalition dot org. I mean, you could be forgiven for thinking living in a parallel universe when you see that. But that is out there, and it's meant to be helping educate children as you saw. Clearly, what is your reaction to that? And. You know, I don't know what to ask you, really, exactly. I mean, it's like where to start. So I guess the first thing I would say is. Of course, we need some amount of carbon dioxide, it's absolutely true that plants use carbon dioxide, and we need some amount of greenhouse gases to keep this planet. Habitable. Nobody argues that everybody understands that. But just like you can have too much of a good thing we need water for survival. But too much water is fatal. And it kills us. We need warmth for survival. But too much heat is fatal. And it kills us. We do need some degree a stable amount of greenhouse gases, but ever increasing amounts by the billions of tons each year, fundamentally alter our planet, it alters the very ecosystems. And when we have eight nine nearly ten billion people on this planet life, if we do not control this will be fundamentally different. And we do not know. No, how that will will evolve over the coming decades and centuries. So while yes, of course, you need some degree of CO two. I think your your words of this is a parallel universe are. Correct. This is why I've I've stated that the doctor happier is is really a fringe figure even within the climate denial community, and you know, that's that's a tough accolade to earn. But I think he's had it, and, you know, Patty, well, as I said, he founded this co two coalition, but it's received over a million dollars in funding from the energy industry and from conservative lobbyists. So there's all that to on Pinkas. Well, let's just talk about your own ever Lucien, you were a skeptic about all of this and you've come on board. And you know, there's a lot of skepticism mostly in the conservative community, whether it's in the political community or the religious community or whatever. How do you think that the what do you say to them from your own position of having been a skeptic? And you think that people are going to put up with this? The government's own dire warnings on national security, which usually held very dear to consoled is very strong on national security. Can they be convinced to? So I found Christiane that that, you know, unfortunately, every person is somewhat different. And if there was just one easy easy solution. You know, we would we would snap our fingers or wave one and we would be done, but just individuals. You really have to listen to a person and find out what are their concerns many times? Sometimes people do have they just don't understand the science, and that's actually pretty easy to to explain to people. I tell tell folks that the basics of climate science has been known for well over a century. It was actually all figured out in the nineteenth century and. What we have done in the intervening time simply refined and an increased greatly our confidence that the knowledge of people like four and Tyndall into rain. Who's wasn't fact? Correct. But oftentimes it's not really about the science. This issue has unfortunately being seen as a proxy issue for for sciences. The proxy, the real issues are ideology, there are some people who do not want the government to tell them what to do or how to do things people are concerned about the price of energy. And some people believe that if the United States takes action on this issue, but if other countries don't then they're going to lose their jobs, and let's see if you're some forty something year old guy, you know, it's tough to go and start again in midlife and get a job. And I found many times the issues there's not the science, but the people are concerned afraid, frankly about what the implications are. So I tell people the climate scientists. Are not going to solve this. This is really the social scientist and leadership which will which will help people understand that we do have to attack this issue because the greater good of society is going to be be imperilled and just to not put to find a point on it. But really it a straight your journey. You describe yourself as a bit of a bit like a reformed smoker on this that you've developed zeal for this position right now. Because of what happened to you back in two thousand and five adjoining Hurricane Katrina. We've got pictures of your house before and after so why don't you narrate for us? What happened to you? Okay. So I'm not sure if you have the before picture, but I was in one of my jobs in the navy when I was in command of the navy's weather and ocean. Prediction capabilities were down on the on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi right on the Mississippi Louisiana border, and my wife, and I were able to buy a fairly modest house about three houses up from the Mississippi. And if you go to the after picture, this is what happens I tell people if you ever wonder what a ten meter storm surge or twenty five to thirty foot. Storm surge does coming up your street. And when I say, we lost our house. We actually did quite literally lose our house and to the state we still haven't really founded either went into the railway tracks or got sucked out into the ocean. And we were we were absolutely for a whole variety of reasons. Some of the most fortunate people on the Mississippi coast for for just a number of personal reasons. But what concerns me about this is as the cease come up and as hurricanes when they form typhoons or cyclones when they form the evidence is increasing that they will be bigger and wetter and slower and stronger and all of that leads to more destruction by water by wind, but by the water, and the and that will cause security issues if we can not handle that. Okay. So on the flip side of that. That's too much too little water because of climate change in places like Syria and others. Whether massive droughts has been blamed impart full, sparking the Syria war. I know you've looked at that, quite Catholic. Explain how that might have sparked the wool. So just just very briefly this. This is a decades long story. It really starts with a sod coming into power wanting to be self sufficient in in some staple grains, like barley he chiefs that and he achieved that in the nineties, but at the expense of of draining aquifers draining surface water. Of course, the Iraqi war comes along. It's a non climate event. But it does put a million Iraqi refugees into the city's pressurize is as as your viewers know, so well, the the existing tensions, and it's not like a sods really taking care of his people fast forward to a decade ago. And we have one of the worst all time droughts in Syria. And of course, it's already a dry region. But this was an exceptional drought and the science community can with very high confidence and tribute the severity of that drought to the change in our climate. Then you have three quarters of a million of Syrian farmers who have nothing they just have nothing because their crops. Totally failed and they to come into the cities, and as you mentioned earlier on in the program you now have these millions and billions of both Syrian farmers. Iraqi refugees in the cities the government is not taking care of them. In fact, they're formenting tensions ethnique treds, and it becomes a breeding ground for extremists. And it becomes very easy to recruit for varying extreme ideologies because people are desperate. They want some shelter. They want safety. They want water. They want food, and this is really the poster child if you will for how climate was one of the X in a chain of events that leads to this catastrophe. All right. Well, you've really laid it out in dramatic technicolor that Rear Admiral Titley, thank you for joining us. Credit score is greater than a number. It's your story. Whether you're saying goodbye to public transit and getting a car train out of service. 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I mean, sometimes she names Gloria. Gloria bell is an English language remake of the Spanish romantic drama, Gloria by the same Chilean director, Sebastian Lelio actor Jon to touro plays Julianne. Moore's shambling boyfriend. And I go to speak to both of these Hollywood supernova when they join me from Neil. Julianne Moore, and John Tucker. A welcome to the program. Thank you for having. What it's really a great pleasure. This is a mega heavyweight bit of star power. We have on our program. And I wanna ask you about this amazing film, Gloria bell. What made you Judy? I think you were the sort of engine behind getting it remade. It was a film that was done in Chile and the director you persuaded him to do it again, why what about it attracted you? Well, I saw I mean, I saw his original film in film and loved it was was so so moved in so struck by the humanity of Sebastian's work, and we share manager. And so I really wanted to to meet him. But there was sort of misunderstanding. We he was living in Berlin met him in Paris. And he had heard that I had no interest in remaking the film. And so we had this this long meeting at the very end. Of it. He said, well, thank you so much. You know, I know that you're not interested in making this. I said, oh, no, no, no. I said, I would only do it if you'd erected it. And he said, oh, well, then I would only directed if you were in it. And then suddenly we kind of ourselves doing it. But that that being said, it's so unusual to actually have a meeting and then have something come out of a meeting. Right. You know? So the fact that it happened was really extraordinary, and before we get into the story the story line John about it made you want to join these two who is so passionate about doing it. What what was it that attracted you to this role in the film? I actually saw the original film, and I loved it. You don't see that many films about a woman of a certain age, you know, trying to rediscover herself. And no one's paying attention to her. I just thought it was a beautiful film. And then I know Julianne a long time, but we've never actually acted together. I thought the bashing was he's terrific. Actor and sometimes it's really the company that you keep not always the role and was a tremendously creative experience. So actually really interesting wanting to work with certain people, and I guess, you know, you both at a certain stage in your career where you can actually make these decisions how empowering and liberating is that especially for you, Judy. I'm because I mean, women of a certain age all around the same age three of us. It's not so obvious in Hollywood, why say certain age, I mean, I actually I have to say I take I want to come in on that. Because like why why why would you say that? 'cause you wouldn't say that about men, you know, and I don't think there's anything pejorative about about any age. And that's what's kind of great about Gloria, Gloria bell to is this character could be anywhere or anyone. You know? So so what what really is unique about it is that kind of intimate observation of of of of a person throughout their life with nothing ordinary happens. When it's just like, you know, you get up you go to work at your friends. You go dancing, you meet a guy all that kind of stuff that kind of observation of someone's life. That's what was really fascinating about it. And it could have been it could have been a man, you know, it could have been a younger woman to whatever. But, but but I do think that and also she someone the trick that Sebastian has to that. She someone who sometimes secondary character in the scene that she's play. So that we have of their lunch date with Rita Wilson. And and I actually only have one line in it. And so everybody else's talking and Gloria is is listening. But the camera stays on her in a way. That's that's the trick is like how do you this person who might be ordinarily secondary character? Even in a scene is the one who's a primary character in the film. Look, it's complex. And it subtle, and it's really interesting. I personally beg to differ. I don't think it's would be as interesting if it was young people young. I think what's really really interesting is that you. Middle-aged in the film, John you're middle-age the film you both gone through marital disruptions you'd be divorced for a longtime and you you'll carry Giuliani. Gloria you go through you, do this you go out and you Don on your own and maybe get hit up. And and there's nothing pejorative or sleazy or weird about it. And that I think is interesting because it's not easy to do that at any age, frankly. No, no. I mean, she's remarkably brave. I think just the way that what really struck me about this character is that she the way she engages in her life when her relationships with her family members with their friends, whether friend with the world in the fact, she's always willing to try new things, and she's and sometimes sometimes try a little more than you'd recommend right? You know, sometimes you're like as an audience, you're like, oh, no don't do that. And then she does it the way that we all kind of do sometimes so. Yeah. So let me just play the first that we have. And it's when John you'll character meets her character at the ball. No. Are you asking me laugh? That's all. Some days. Somedays? I'm not. Everyone. Like everyone. You know, watching that clip again, John I really given what you've all just been saying. I realized how old me the dialogue is I mean that seems to be very ordinary dialogue. It's not. It's not highly stylized. No, no, something kind of track. Oh, vian about Sebastian's approach because he's really into the behavior and actually what occurs in the space between people and doesn't occurred. And I think that was what was the fascinating part of the experience. Yeah. I mean, he asked us to do certain things. I think both of us can be strong willed. And we just tried it whenever he did. Sensitive and smart an intelligence and so interested in nuance. You know, he would ask another take simply because he wanted to see like what else would happen. What if you've dug a little bit deeper on something that seemed really really simple, and it it was interesting because you you I would get lost sometimes thinking like, well, I don't know what I'm going for. But in a way, what happens is that you end up reverting to just being just being present. Which is what you wanna accomplish the film like this. She sounds like a lot of fun in the real sort of professional craft way of fun. It sounds like you really had the luxury of an amazing threesome, really. I mean, you two and Sebastian who you both of respect so much. No so much Gloria is divorced for more than ten years. And she seems to be at ease you you're busy belting out hits from the eighties. As you driving. I wonder how how revealing that was to be singing in front of the whole world. Was that kind of most of or did you you grades Vancouver. Now. I mean, you know, it's. I think what the dancing was the hardest for me, John really a dancer. You know, he's he he loves it dance and he takes lessons regularly. I am not at answer. So for me that was that was heart. I really had to try to free myself. We really had a good time. But actually, I was to have a partner like John every day to go to work to look forward to being with an actor of his caliber and someone who is also interesting and fun to be with and that oh my God that makes such a tremendous difference. So and so to be able to dance with him. And really try to communicate physically, you know, that that was that was something new and really I was fighting right? It was personal. Because you know. She puts her attention on the on our partner, and that's just a wonderful thing. Because once you do that, you're no longer thinking about yourself. You think about the other person and interesting things occur says he did throughout the film, as I say glorious character is much freer has much more Bandon is much more open to experiences and kind of knows what she wants. You'll carry two on old. You know, it's funny because. I don't know how you drive him. But. To be missed. No oil a lot of ladies on the set. In informed me that there were lots of men like aren't. Trip that reveals Ona-led in old his glorious complexity so you taking him as Gloria to meet your family. And this is what happens how could you be so root for what I was. Introducing you to my family. I brought you to my son's birthday party. And you nerve thing wasn't an easy situationally. I searched your is again, and again exist we were in love. Were in love. You didn't. Say that it made me sick. Threw up. I don't know how you could do something like that to me. And the girls cooled. So. Grow hair. Ooh, that is a pretty big put down grow a pets. So obviously that comes off to take an him to dinner. Your ex husband is there with his new wife, and he's busy telling how much you're in love and all this new Ona-led, get all bent out of shape and run away. So you get kind of cowardly. So many. But it's true. He does in the field, humiliated because her kids are there. And they're like who is this guy. Mom, and you know, it's a yeah. So what is the message? Then in the end. What is the message of the film? I I don't know. You know, I think that Sebastian's wonderful thing other day where he said he goes to films and wants to feel inspired to live. And I think that that's what this movie does because it really is a movie about people and their relationships to one another and what they care about what they love and how they feel. And so you watch it, and you have all of these big feelings of of, you know, of of of kind of grief and then enjoy which is what we have, you know? I mean, that's what that's what life is. And so you leave thinking. Yeah. This is what I care about. I care about you know, what I do care about the people that I love, and I'm going to I'm going to engage in it goes on. Does you know you fail? That's try again again fail better. And I think that's in the movie, you know, it's it really is amazing because it does connect on so many visceral levels, and it's very very acceptable. So it's an amazing story. Look, you mystically said a moment ago women of a certain age, I'm very proud of being of a certain age and having a new chapter. I just want to as as a woman, and I will ask John as well from his perspective Julianne the more accomplished. You get the awards that you get you get the more critical acclaim that you get do you? Also, get more equal pay. Do you get more power over deciding what you can what you want to star in what you want to. Well, have directed tra- projects. Those are separate issue guest there. There are separate issues because it's like I do have a lot of creative. Troll in in terms of the the choices that I make. But you know, with the movie like Gloria bell that's movies made from very little money. So it's not. So so what you're paid is kind of is mood. I mean, it really doesn't amount to much at the end of the day in terms of in terms of economic power that that's equal to to to. Men my age, probably not, you know, they don't. So I don't do a lot of studio movies. So it's it's very it's very very challenging. But I think that won't we talk about salary parody. This is something that's not endemic just to Hollywood. We're talking about the parody across all businesses just in terms of of opportunity and and pay so. Yeah. It's it's obviously it's still in process. But I do think that there has been great progress made in the last year, and you support of Jennifer Lawrence his campaign on this and the other women yet and who campaigned on his show where do you come down star? Yeah. I think if you're in a movie and you have same size roles. You should get the same amount of money. And I think it's it's interesting for also for men to be films that the focus is not on the man, you know, it's on on the woman, and I think that's an interesting experience. And I think it's good for young men to see because it's you need to be introduced to the other world. From a young age, you know, and I remember watching so many films, which would say women films with my mom in. Whether they were Bette Davis of bummer Stanwick, and I always found those films just as interesting as a film with Burt, Lancaster or somebody. That's really an important. It's really interesting observation. I hadn't heard of the male actors say that. But I think that's really interesting, and you've course of I mean, you have this amazing career of all these character. Pas that you've played in so many landmark films. I mean, you know, spike, Lee's films and endless others. I guess I just went onto his well since we're talking about these issues. So there was a lot of recognition for black movies this year. Whether it was the Oscars the BAFTA, the Golden Globes that was good. It wasn't Oskar so white anymore. Spike, Lee, finally got an Oscar, but not for director off the best film. I just wanted to. What you will were as you. As you watch that John having having been directed by him. Well, spike is a dear friend, I known for over thirty years. So I was very pleased that he was knowledged because he certainly hasn't been in the past. And once again, it's like when you open the doors to something you have to keep building on it. When the doors opened up for a while, you thought it was going to be more opportunities in the early nineties, and there wasn't. And he also took a lot of flack, you know. He he likes to talk. But he took a lot of flack from white critics. I'm just glad to see him had success and the embraced because you wanna be able to continue. That's what we do. What we do is. We want to be able to go on and not just being knowledged, but be able to do more things because I think sometimes in our business people can actually improve. Actually better. Why? No using that transmits should've won best picture. Do. I. Should've won fly. Certainly I would say I preferred it to the film that did. So I'll say I know it's hard to about. I I think awards very strange because I mean Julianne, you know, got an Oscar, but she also was great and a lot of other movies. And when she was in far from heaven. That's something that's like, you know, embedded in my mind, her performance in that film. So do I think the film she got an Oscar for was better than I can't. It's not. It's exactly that's yeah. It's it's Judy opinion. Interestingly you what we might call an army. Brad, you grew up in Europe. You'll father was believe military judge. Your mother was a psychiatric social worker, and you've being in France, and Germany and many other countries. How did that inform your not just you upbringing, but your aesthetic? When it came to fill in in France, surrounded by the great great directors there. It was interesting because I first of all I think is an actor. You learn by moving around, you you learn that that behavior is not concrete that it's mutable, you know, so so this idea that you are how you behave which can which I think people feel sometimes in the same place. This is how we are. You know, you learned that that's just that doesn't that doesn't matter. But then I think being exposed to different cultures and foam and aesthetics. It was a that. Actually, I happened in a movie theater when I lived in Lasca when I was ten years old, and they got different movie in every week. And because we have nothing to do in the wintertime. I saw whatever was there. Immersing Cassidy's film called million Moskowitz. And I saw a day in the life of Ivan Denisovich at ten I didn't know what was happening just. Yeah. It was a crazy movie into that. I didn't understand I saw it. And then I think in with European film to. Yes. Suddenly, you see these different world views. And so you you the first movie actually that I saw that made me realize that there was a director present. And that things could be different was was Robert minoshe three women. And I was like, wow. Who was that? Who is that person? What are they saying? You know, why why is it different? And that was the first time I thought, well, that's why I wanted to I wanna work with somebody who makes movies like that. And then both of you. I'd like you to come in actually on something you said Judy 'em. But it's really interesting as a personal and professional sort of maxim you quoted Flaubert and you do this regularly. You save be regular and orderly in your life. So that you may be violent and original in your work. Yeah. That works for me. I wholeheartedly. I really do. I think that people were grounded sometimes can be really really free because. They need to do that what people who are crazy in their personal life. Sometimes they they monitor their behavior. So I've seen that a lot. Thank you know. I think that you know, your nation can't hurt you feelings can't hurt. You what we're doing on a set? We are. We are pretending we are creating an imaginary world. And so if you if you know who you are, and you know, and and you know, what the boundaries are and your real life than than in your life. You really able to do almost anything. And when you're with another actor who knows that. I think there's a that you can accomplish a lot because you, you know, what's there? And that's love I read honestly, it really does come down to doing a lot of pretending right? But so just finally then what keeps each of you grounded? Joan what keeps you grounded? Is it your marriage is that your family is it? Certainly my my wife keeps me grounded. And my kids, and my friends and just being a citizen and part of the world, you know? And that's that's what you are. And to keep and to keep learning. I think Judy on what's your secret of remaining grounded. I think I think John I are very similar. We have similar lives. I've been you know, I've been married for a long time. I have a two wonderful children, a great family life and great friends and interested in my community, and activism, and and yeah, just being just being a person, I feel unfortunate that I have this this regular if I can rely on and this imaginary life that I can tend to, you know, sit some. Yeah. It's it's been a bit a great life. It really has got some really amazing original performances out of you both. So it's phenomenal. Thank you for everything that you've given us Julianne Moore, John. Thank you give off. God. Thank you. Such generous path and we now turn back to the future. Where oughta fischel intelligence is re weaving the fabric of our society. And our next guest says that we need to change patterns, Amy Webb is the founder of the future today institute. Her new book, the big nine how the tech titans, and they're thinking machines could walk humanity warns of a world with little choice and no control where wars are Ford by computer code. She sat down without Hari Sreenivasan. You say in the book, the big nine, this is nine companies that are pretty much in charge of most of the that's interacting with us today in the United States, you call it the the G mafia an acronym for Google Microsoft, apple Facebook, IBM, Amazon, right? Those companies here, and you say that really the concern that you have is that they're all operating with market pressures and commercial realities. Why's that a problem the challenge with AI? Is that you have a relatively small group of people in a handful of companies in the United States building out these systems. And unfortunately, they don't have the luxury of taking time to do risk modelling and assessment to think about guardrails to sandbox and test things to make sure that they are safe or that they're not going to evolve in ways that we haven't yet seen rhyming their business models been actually rewarded for the opposite. That's right right to go ahead was a run fast break things fast and break things. But in the case of you're saying, this is much more dangerous than just the internet stuff that we're talking about. Now, I would say so and they're publicly held companies. So they have a responsibility to their shareholders. And unfortunately, our shareholders have less and less patients a couple of weeks ago. Google had as part of its earnings call. Had to disclose its r&d spend, which was high like, the it was it was very big, and it meant that some of the margins and other places we're going to be smaller investors freaked out. We'll it's not like the United States government has a giant pool of money funding, basic science and technology research we did years ago, but we don't have that now which means that in the United States the entire future of AI is being built by essentially six companies who have a responsibility to their shareholders who don't have the luxury to say, let us keep our heads down and work on this without the expectation that there's going to be a product at the end of it and on top of all of that there's been no strategic direction in our under our current administration on. I we have no national strategy. We have no point of view and AI is not a tech trend is the next era of computing into which everything else is tied. So. So we have a situation in which there's an antagonistic relationship between our congress people in regulators, and what's happening in the valley with Wall Street for the most part calling the shots. It's a dangerous situation during a time in which in China, the three predominant AI companies. They're the bat by do Alibaba and tencent. Are pretty much operating as public companies in lockstep with Beijing. And let's not the venue have to connect all of the other dots. Well, sheeting ping because of some changed regulations in China is affecting now president for life. And he is a smart guy. A smart guy who was good at aligning other leaders around him the companies that are working in China right now are they part of a larger geopolitical strategy that China has. That's a good question. Nothing on paper would affirm that however from my vantage point on that that is exactly what's happening. So by do all ten cent each focus on different aspects of AI. Alibaba is similar to Amazon. By do is similar to Google. And what is all of this have to do with people? That's why should anybody care outside of China. There's the Belton road initiative. This is a diplomatic effort China's trading debt for infrastructure. So it's going in and building roads and building bridges. So that's interesting, and there's about sixty countries now that are part of this this this initiative. But it's also a deeply funded digital initiative. So in addition to bridges and roads, China's also laying fiber it's putting small cells all over the place to to build five G networks, and it's also exporting some of its AI and some of its data collection techniques. But it's China, which means that you are very much playing by the rules of the government must be playing by the rules. There's really almost a large-scale experiment going on with Social Credit system. What is it? Sure. So the Social Credit score system is a way of collecting data to track. How people are performing in society. So as easy example, there's a couple of provinces where the technology's been tested. If you Jay walk when the light is red across the street on their smart cameras that line the streets everywhere, you are automatically recognized your faces thrown up on a digital billboard. So everybody else can see that you've just broken the Bank shaming public shaming. So that's a piece of it. You're asked to report to a local police precinct. Usually this could be a fine levied and social networks are used to tell your employer your family members that you have gone against the grain of society, and you've broken the law. This is happening now that's happening. Now, this is like a FICO score that we wouldn't understand when we get a mortgage, but this is much more related to every other part of your life. That's right. So if you've bad credit score, you know, you're going gonna have a hard time getting car, you're going to have a hard time getting a mortgage people may pass judgement on you. Right. You may have a hard time getting certain kinds of jobs. This is like that for every aspect of your life. So if you have a low score your kids aren't getting into the right schools now again, you may ask yourself. That's fascinating. I don't live in China. So why do I care about is this technology, and this concept is already being exported? If you're an authoritarian. Ian ruler into want to keep people in line. You want to keep people in line. This is a pretty nifty way of making that happen. So you create the incentives and disincentives to figure out how you want to steer the population. That's right. And if it's the case that eventually all of these people in all of these countries have some kind of Social Credit score. Isn't it also plausible that the companies where they work will be granted some type of corporate credit score for the purpose of determining trade values. And. Taxes and tariffs and things like that. So if that's what's happening, and we are not a part of that process as China creates a new world order using artificial intelligence. Isn't it plausible that as Americans? We won't have Social Credit score the companies that we own our work for won't have a corporate credit score. It may be impossible for us to do business in any of those countries unless we opt into that. We done. You seem less concerned about the Terminator scenario about robots coming around and deciding the were inefficient than you are about essentially erosion of humanity because as you start talking about a I'm making choices sort of what are the values that those choices are based on when their machines. So I'm a pragmatist. This is this is not mean that I'm not concerned a little bit about. A weaponized version of AI, but the pragmatist in me is much more concerned about what's happening now. And what's happening now is that we are surrounded by systems that make millions of decisions on our behalf every day all day long. And the point of this is to optimize our lives the challenge with a optimizing our lives is that the people who built the systems to make those people may determinations about what is and the people working on these systems. You know, quite frankly, don't really look like or represent everybody. And if you're if you don't share the same worldview as as a critical mass of people if you don't have the same experiences, if if how can these systems that are? Designed to make optimal decisions for us all possibly reflect our own individualistic values. They can't think of all of the different things in our lives that we are losing the ability to have any modem of control over all of us now are being nudged. Every time we sent an Email or text message. You see at the bottom of your phone suggested response suggested responses, my husband is a perfect example. So couple of days ago. I texted my husband something, and he texted me something back, and it was like a set phrase that I've literally we've been married for ten years. Never once heard him say this, and it irritated me. Because I felt like he wasn't communicating with me in a personal way. You weren't even worth an actual response. Right. It was just a button because it was so easy. It's totally right. So when he came home what's have dinner that night. And I was like, hey like remember that text message from earlier Roebuck. Exactly. And I said did you did you type the response or did you just click the button, and he was like, well, I click the button, it meant the same thing. But the problem is that doesn't mean literally mean the same thing. But it doesn't mean the same thing. And and I think we don't recognize just how much of our lives. Are already being optimized by a handful of people working in Silicon Valley. In ways that over time these may seem insignificant now, but over time, I think they have the potential to change the fabric of society, and how we relate to each other. You say in the book, you have one optimistic one the best case scenario, you have a pragmatic one. And you have kind of a not so great one. Considering where we're at today. What is the more likely one that's going to happen? What I think is likely is similar between the pragmatic and the catastrophic scenarios in which we slowly lose control over the ability to make decisions we see more and more consolidation. We have less choice. Ironically, we find that we are being nudged continuously and being nudged by our technology continuously not only makes us miserable. But we also start to forget that that we have some agency, and how do things it sort of encourages a mental laziness that spills over into other areas of life and slowly. But surely China builds an arsenal of code as it deploys. This new kind of diplomacy, and we find that the world is divided in new and quite uncomfortable ways. You know, and we're looking at future wars fought and code rather than combat, and we know when the first shots have been fired when our lights start flickering intermittently. We get locked out of our smart microwaves. And we find that our lives are difficult because somebody has decided to restrict them. I mean, you know, I think what people have in their heads is some kind of vent horizon where the machines wake up, and then they come to kill us. All that would certainly be horrible. But so would living in a world where where in a country like America, which is built on individual freedoms. We find that. We are. We are banned by restrictions and all of these different ways and systems are making decisions about us. And for us in ways that are completely unintelligible that to me would be a way worse a single event horizon, a single bomb that drops that that destroys that obviously that's bad. But isn't it almost worse to live through generations of transition away from freedom where we are right now to resolute control to me. That's worse. I know I know, but, but but there my my point with all of this. I know the catastrophic scenario is bleak. And I know that it has scared a lot of people who read early versions of it. But my purpose for doing this is to change our developmental path. So there is a we have agency now that we could do something about it to get off that track. That's right. So if we stop thinking about artificial intelligence as a great way to make money fast, right or some kind of morpheus way to ensure our human longevity far into the or Sifi or whatever it is. If we can get down to brass tacks. And. Again, like start making smarter decisions in a collaborative way. I think we have a real opportunity to make good on some of those promises. But the way to do that is to treat artificial intelligence as a public good. It's something we all have a stake in the air. Right. And for some to be something that we all we reap the rewards and benefits from but we also protect Amy Webb. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Final note of Missouri there from Amy Webb and that is it for now. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

United States Gloria bell John Julianne Moore Amy Webb Hollywood China AI Sebastian Lelio Judy Christiane Amanpour Syria navy director London White House Admiral Titley congress
Amanpour: Robin Wright, Hatice Cengiz, Radhika Jones and Rachel Lears

Amanpour

57:25 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Robin Wright, Hatice Cengiz, Radhika Jones and Rachel Lears

"Every year over six hundred thousand people enter prison gates in America. Go behind the numbers of mass incarceration. In America, with me van Jones on my new podcast incarceration, Inc. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcast tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Xeni offers thousands of affordable. Eyewear styles starting at just six ninety five no ridiculous markups. No hassles. Just quality affordable. I wear delivered right to you visits any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. Hello, everyone and welcome to on poor his what's coming up. The rhetorical roller coaster between Trump and the Ayatollah zoom ratchets up, and then down again, what is the US strategy here loss seven months, after his brutal murder Jamal kashogi, fiance tells me about the tall it's taken on her and why she's now ready to meet with President Trump. Then from the jazz age to the twenty twenty presidential race. As Vanity Fair opens up its archives to the public, I speak with the magazine's editor-in-chief Reggie cajones, and small and young inexperienced. Knock down the house. A hurry screen of us and sits down with the director of that blockbuster documentary about the women who dead to challenge, the establishment in the midterms. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. President Trump ran for office promising to put America first and not to get involved in foreign wars, but two years into his administration. America is in the midst of a brutal trade war with China and edging ever closer to a shooting war with Iran members of the administration have ratcheted up anti Iranian pressure and rhetoric at an unprecedented pace. But is this web President Trump wants to be signing off on yet? Another Middle East war, while still fighting Iraq, Syria, and Afghanstan, Iran says it won't be provoked into a first strike, and taking a page out of Trump's book of nicknames blames the so-called B-team for the current tensions Bolton BB Netanyahu bin Zeid of the UAE and bin Salman of Saudi Arabia. Of course, the Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman still hasn't faced any rebuke. From President Trump for the assassination of the journalist Jamal kashogi in October last year. So what is the strategy around these clouds of war? I asked rub Reid correspondent for the New Yorker whose latest piece is titled is Trump? Yet another US, president provoking a war, probably right. Welcome to the program. Great to be with you. I wanna you have such deep and long knowledge of the region and the wars in the region. Do you feel in your God, a sort of similarity, at least in the rhetoric that's coming from the Trump White House as did from the George W Bush White House, as they prepared and pave the ground for war with Iraq? Well, certainly there's a sense in Washington, that there are similarities between these two very dangerous Middle East confrontations. With two leaders with whom we have very long histories of hostility, but there are differences, of course in. In that you saw the confrontation with Saddam Hussein Platt over many, many years. The recent tensions with Iran, given that they've just engaged in a nuclear agreement of few years ago has escalated dramatically within the last week. And arguably. Since the president withdrew from there on nuclear deal and more specifically decided to designate the entire revolutionary guard corps as a terrorist group, which is the first time the US has done that with any army anywhere in the world, not to find a point on it. But there are many legislators who very worried Senator Menendez, the ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations committee has said we don't need another Iraq weapons of mass destruction moment where we're engaged in a conflict without understanding testing the veracity of the intelligence that might lead us to set actions. Number two, you can't make foreign policy and national security decisions in the blind. And that's what we're being asked to do with the lack of information. What's the end game as far as you can gather? Well, I think you've asked to be the big question, and I think there's a difference within the administration even over. What is the endgame, I think you see different goals represented by President Trump is national security adviser, John Bolton and the secretary. Of state Mon Mike Pompeo, the president has actually reached out to the Iranians and said he would be willing to talk to the supreme leader. So there is that diplomatic overture the national security adviser on the other hand has long called for regime change. He wrote an op Ed in the New York Times talking about bombing Iran. This was before he took office as the only way to prevent the Tehran from getting a nuclear weapon, and Mike Pompeo was talked about regime change. But with twelve demands that are so sweeping that it kind of sounds like either an overhaul and who's in power or regime change. So I think they're all in unity when it comes to we don't want to see Iran become more aggressive. We don't want to see it threaten either American interests are allies in the Middle East. But then I think, after that, there is a severe difference. I think that's beginning to be illustrated, but I do think that over the last ten days we've seen an escalation and a sense in wash. Shington that something's going on the big question, of course, is are the Rainiers responding to what the United States has done in terms of saying, you will not be able to ship any oil anywhere in the world, therefore, we're going to starve you comically? And designating the Revolutionary Guards, a terrorist group is it responding by deploying its forces. In case there is some kind of action is it defensive or is this an initiative to try to channel is the United States and say, you're on our borders. You're on on the Gulf waters just off our borders. We're going to show you that this is our turf. And so it's very unclear what the Iranians are doing. And I think the United States is at a stage where others beginning to be a lot of very serious debate about what's going on. And what's going to happen next? I mean, just very briefly, though, just to pick up on something, you said, do you believe the reports that President Trump is quote unquote irritated frustrated with the direction, which is national security advisor seems to be pushing him. Donald Trump believes national security stops at our borders. He does not want to see foreign engagement. He resisted requests from the Pentagon to remain in Syria. He has wanted. To withdraw forces from Afghanistan. He really does not want another war, but I think he does want to stand up to Iran. And that's where, you know, the divide is so standing up to Iran trying to get that other nefarious behavior tamp down. The Iranians of said, you've seen us for the last forty years. We don't need go. She ate under pressure. We don't cave even onto sanctions, but they are also saying the foreign minister, the supreme leader that we do not want war, we are practicing in the face of your maximum pressure. Maximum restraint, and that we feel you trying to entrap us as a as a pretext or a precursor for war against us. Just give me the benefit of your analysis of the Iranians. Well, I saw the Iranian Foreign Minister four times when he was in New York for the United Nations last month. And the message was repeatedly. We do not want war, and we do not think Donald Trump wants a war. I think the Iranians are very nervous. I think they're feeling vulnerable because of their economic circumstances with renewed sanctions. I think they feel that the United States is surrounds them, whether it's an Afghanistan or Iraq or in the Persian Gulf. And I think that, that this as you know, better than anybody Christiane. This is very proud nation with a long history and feels that it's going to take whatever action it needs to survive. This is also revolution forty years in with the revolutionaries in their elderly years, and it is the fate of Iran, as a nation as well as a revolution that has redefined politics across the Middle East. There's a lot at stake here. I must say having covered this region for so long. My head is actually spinning at the speed with which these tensions have been ratcheted. Up. So we'll wait to see what happens over the next days and weeks. But let's, let's continue your theme in this case, we have US allies in the region. Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and they are saying that it's Ron, the sabotaged tankers in the in the Persian Gulf in the straits of HMOs, how dangerous or how closely should the United States watch what is being told by Saudi Arabia and the UAE who obviously challenging Iran in that region. Well, these tensions predate this tanker episode, there has been growing tension in the Persian Gulf between the Gulf shake them Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates particularly and Iran going back decades. But particularly since the takeover of crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, and so, I think that, that we were on an escalatory path, what happened with the tankers, I think, as, as soared this into the stratosphere when it comes to something going from rhetorical tensions to actual physical dangers of some kind of showdown, and. The United States has long taken a position that Saudi Arabia's one of its most important allies, not just in the Middle East, but in the world and it has stood by the kingdom, whoever's in power now, there has been this undercurrent. Because of the, the murder of Jamal kashogi, the administration has been under enormous pressure to try to distance itself at the same time it's trying to push Middle East peace plan that will depend largely on whether it gets Saudi Arabia's approval. So that relationship is not going to change in any way by what happens. In the Gulf when next going to hear from Jamaica, Chaudhry's fiance. There's a lot of commentary about how, you know, seven months after his murder, there is still no real transparency, accountability effort by the United States or indeed. More importantly, Saudi Arabia. Absolutely Jamal kashogi was a friend of mine for thirty years. And I am stunned that the administration has done nothing to hold the man accountable when the intelligence communities all believe that crown prince the crown prince had some kind of role directly or indirectly in orchestrating, this very grizzly murder. The fact is we still do not know where his body is. And that's reprehensible, we'll see whether not changing Giza's presence in Washington might move that a little bit. We don't know. But rub. And right. Thank you so much for all your expertise, as usual, thank you, Christine. And as I said that my next guest is Jamal Shoghi fiance's, had teach aging geeze on October second Twenty-eight team. She waited outside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, while the Washington Post journalist went inside to collect the papers, he needed for them to get married. She waited for hours, but he never reappeared. Now, seven months. Later there is still no Justice for Jamal. But her Tice is working tirelessly to make sure those responsible for his brutal murder and dismemberment face Justice. The Trump administration has questioned the as conclusion that Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman authorized the operation and has avoided imposing any substantial penalty on the longstanding Middle East ally Tice has been testifying before congress and I spoke to her about her message and why she is now ready to meet with President Trump. Hi tice. Welcome to the program. I'm going to start by asking you a couple of questions in English. I want you to respond in English, and then we'll go off into Turkish when it becomes more technical. So obviously I we all want to know how are you doing? What is the last seven months being like for you? Since Jomaa was so brutally murdered and his body still has not been discovered. I'm feeling Whitey buds myself and. I don't understand what's going on right now. But. I'm here in Washington DC today. Want to understand? And I'm funding or seeking about justic for Jamal and why they are. Locked making anything for this case. How do you feel personally? How is it affecting you personally? I'm feeling alone. And. I went to speak to cash police, okay because I can explain by my language bother. Go ahead. You feel very much alone about this. God feel have been deserted. A journalist has been voted fullest as the hasn't been proper investigation. Everything has his in suspense, starting at the United States, European countries states leaders, have not proper pressure. They have not taken any steps with to getting answers real answers to this horrendous crime. I'm questioning humanity. I feel a moral responsibility to ask these questions, and I feel complete disappointment at the response to his, killing sir. Just let me ask you then because recently, the United States last month publicly, designated sixteen people from Saudi Arabia for the roles that they allegedly played in Jamal's murder. The US says that they and their immediate families are not allowed to travel to the United States. Is that a good? First step for you young. I would like to think that way, I'd like to hope that it's a first step in the right direction. But in itself is not really that meaningful took entered Issan murder, the murders on have not been captured the whole humanity curious. I am wondering why no significant real steps are being taken so far. What happened to his body? For example. No one has given any ounces. No one has given any clear cut straightforward straightforward answers to that question Saudi Arabia, who's put some people on trial. And they say for the murder of Jamal kashogi, what do you want Saudi Arabia, the United States, and the European Union to do? Also. This'll an international investigation bold. Some kind of a team can be formed the United States should lead could lead such an investigation. I did not choose this, but I found myself right in the middle of it. I am living victim of this crime Jamal, and I came together we wanted to. Lied alive. Together is wanted to start their life, happy life, but he was seventhly brutally killed. That's hopes and my hopes for interrupted tell me a little bit about what you remember what life was like with him to keep him. Are smile relationship with Jamal was very strong? It was a love story from the moment you met each other. It's, it's like this. It's just a marriage. Friendship on a journey together, maybe a teacher student relationship. Very joyful. We were having a good time to get. Entertaining each other sharing values bit Masud losing. When I lost him more than losing a husband partner. I I've lost my friend. That I thought I would have the rest of my life. So I feel that pain. History in eight months, since I lost him, but it's in my for me. The feelings are exacted same. They haven't diminished. They still affect me in the same as they had on day one. You paint a very beautiful portrait and drama was also a friend and colleague, too many of us, and many of us miss him and value him. And also as journalists want this murder to be sold. So, so let me just ask you a final question in October shortly after Jamal's death. President Trump invited you to the White House, you rejected it. Then, do you think that it would be a good thing for you to go and meet the president of the United States and put your very forceful case to him? Personally took. Yes, this is a very good question. I'd like to thank you for this question. Juncture. Now I do think about this. I do have hopes. But before I can't go and visit him Trump needs to renew his invitation. I am in the United States, I am going to speak to the congress. Testify to congress. That's why I'm here. Couple of Tim died. Communication has been sense to the White House stating that I have accepted the invitation by the president. So I am ready to. Zhu pumps in that myself if. And I believe that I might be able to say things take steps to -posedly effect the prompt process. The euro. Candidate so's to, to meet the president himself. I'd like to meet him. I'd like to tell him what my relationship with jemele was like. At this time. Such as good not have proven, an accurate one. The political situation internet, everything else that was going on. But right now, I feel ready to meet, Mr President. And so I'm here to make these steps stately steps and continue my life, subsequent to that. Well, we hope that he heard you had Tice. And obviously, on behalf of all journalists we want to see a proper investigation and accountability for the murder of one of our own colleagues, and obviously, your fiance, had Tice geeze, thank you so much for joining us, took the Durham to thank you. I would like to thank you. Hi, I'm Bill Kristol feeling confused about politics, who isn't. That's why I host my podcast conversations with Bill Kristol. They have thoughtful conversations with leading figures, and politics and public policy, we reflect on where we are. And we consider where we're going subscribe at I tunes, or wherever you get your podcast and check out our archive for conversations with guests like Mike Murphy, David Axelrod. Ron brownstein and Paul Begala. No spin no soundbites just thoughtful real conversations. Please do. Subscribe today to conversations with Bill Kristol tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses, our friends at Zanny optical offer a huge variety of high quality stylish frames and state of the art optics starting at just six ninety five you can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home at Xeni dot com. With the latest trends in eyewear available in hundreds of frame, styles and materials. There isn't a better way. To change it up for every season. Plus, is any offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit Xeni today at Xeni dot com slash ready that Z E N N I dot com slash ready. Remember to create an ad like this one, visit pure winning dot com slash CNN. Across the world publishers editors and reporters are increasingly finding that they must take a stand for values and for truth. My next guest is the editor-in-chief of Vanity Fair, Rodica Jones, and she's no exception. Just over a year into her tenure. She's put her own imprint on the magazine after following in the footsteps of two titans. Tina Brown and Graydon Carter Jones has made diversity her rallying cry. And for the first time she's opened up the Vanity Fair archives online for the public to see free of charge at least for the beginning. All good scoops are better with a bit of controversy and Rodica learned that as well with her major coup when her April cover was time to know better or rox campaign for the presidency something. He now regrets. I asked ready cajones about all of this, and much more. When she joined me here in our London studio. Ridiculous. Welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me. I it's a year in now you editor in chief of Vanity Fair. How are you finding your feet? How scary was it? In fact, to take this massive job on. It was exciting more than anything else. It, it came a little bit out of the blue for me. I hadn't really expected it to be. It wasn't something that I was necessarily aiming for, but it was so exciting that the opportunity, even came up. So I kind of threw myself in. With a lot of energy. And it was a very exciting first year. Well, you have done something quite remarkable right now. I mean, vanity fez archives all available people are going to be able to go back will, and look at the cover from nineteen thirty and all of the ones that they want to. That's the very first one. Yes. Dress and Vanity Fair and it was published by the original Conde nast, the man, and it was a men's magazine, it was sort of a meme magazine. Yes. Yes. So, you know, despite the picture on the cover, and it kind of became it sorta volved into a magazine for sophisticated class a little more broadly, which, which one did you particularly focus on of Tina Brown? I mean, there's the phenomenal Reagan dancing that we have, you know, she, she basically had to fly down to the White House and convince them after the shoot convince. The Reagan's press secretaries to go for it, and she was incredibly persuasive, and she put this photo on the cover, and it kind of showed them in this different light from the way that people had seen them the lightness that they have the spirit that they have, you know, it's very different time now. And we might look back on that era differently. But at the at that moment, it drove so much coverage and it really was the way she frames it in her memoir, and her diary, it really was the beginning of her era, Vanity Fair. But I just love the, the I love that. She went down there, personally with those pictures, and convinced them to do it, because that is, she was a very hands on editor. She knew what she wanted, and it's very inspiring. And I guess everybody now knows the pregnant Demi Moore and that's become even other photographers. Other actresses of sort of, you know, take taken that idea. But also unbelievable. When it came out, this was not calm when it came out, and I remember I was eighteen years old. I think. When this magazine came out, and it was. It raised a lot of eyebrows. That got a lot of people talking. It really moves the culture. But what I love about it, and what still speaks to me, as an editor is she has this expression throughout and you see it on the cover. She's so calm. She so confident she's confident her body. She really is owning the her pregnancy. And, and her look and I love to see a woman looked like that. And I still do I still look for that in a cover here. Hero covers some of them. I mean, they're not all of them, but I believe Lena. Wait, was your first right? She was, yes. She was my first what made you choose the weight. Well, Lena was a to me, very obvious and natural choice. She had won a historic. Emmy she had made this amazing speech that really resonated with people should for those Senator. She said when she got up on stage and accepted her ward. She said, our differences are our superpower and it, and it spoke to a lot of people and still does, and she really, you know, she lives that in her life and in her work and again diversity in color. It's quite dramatic the way. So many of your covers have shown people of color was that something very deliberate. I mean it's, it's something that. When I look around at the culture, and what's happening in the culture, it's something that simply feels appropriate to me, it feels like these are the people who are on our screens. Now, this is, you know, this is the world of, of Black Panther of get out. You know, these are the these are the rising talents who have roles that maybe they wouldn't have had fifteen or twenty years ago because of the way that Hollywood is changing, because there are so many more opportunities in television on streaming platforms on movie screens. And so we want to show that, and if we can lead the way that's even better, the fact of the matter is that whether it's vanity federal Vogel. These big glossy magazines now sales are going down. I mean, Vanity Fair I think they went down about thirty seven percent of the twenty eighteen and I just wonder how you, you keep the profile in this era. Well, a few things one just to be clear circulation is not only. Stable, but rising, and so that's another important barometer of reader engagement and loyalty. And so we're feeling good about that. There are simply fewer newsstands than there used to be so we grapple with that problem for sure. But I'm very bullish on the print magazine for a number of reasons. One of them is that covers as we're seeing still hold a lot of power and that the thing is that they hold power precisely because of the in digital the because of the digital environment. Because when we release a cover now, we do it digitally. We do it on Instagram. We do it on our own site. We do it on Twitter, and we're finding engagement with readers who maybe hadn't come across Vanity Fair before, but they're seeing it now because it turns up in there feeds. And so, and so, when we make choices about who goes on our cover, we're reaching more people, and that's exciting. So that's one thing. The other thing is that prince still matters even as a conversation driver. And certainly, we saw that with Lena wave. We saw that without better over cover that really has created. Huge amount of interest. It was so obviously timed to come out as he declared his run for presidency, but he then go to bit embarrassed. I think about the tagline the I was born to be in it. I'm just going to play what he said about it. And then we can talk about it. You go for it and probably fairly because the whole quote was a little bit different. Right. But it seemed a little cheeky. Right. As though I were born when you saw did you think that? Yeah, I was I was I was frustrated to be honest with you, that, that was the welcome to the NBA man that, that was a quote that they chose to use. What do you make of that? I mean I'm glad to be in the NBA two. No. I think it's funny to remember, but two months ago that, oh, work had not been profiled by a major national media outlet. It seems crazy now considering how much people know about him, but he had obviously come hit risen up through his Senate race against Ted Cruz. He was a figure of total. Fascination I was hearing about him on the east coast on the west coast. He was interesting to donors. He was interesting to our readers. And so, of course, we pursued this profile, and it was a very competitive story to be the first outlet to be able to tell his story nationally. And so I'm really proud of it. I'm proud that we got it, and I'm proud that it is still driving conversation. But what do you make? If I might just say this, I mean, he did sort of say they took that quote is if putting it on you, you know, the press, they go twisty my woods again. What what's your answer to that? I mean he did say it. And, and I have felt actually that it is clear, what he meant, and I would also say that a lot of people have interpreted this cover differently. I mean, that's always the case with covers. I presided over a lot of magazine covers in my day and the truth is that you can never exactly game out how something is going to go over. But I do think that what, what they talked about, and what we also thought about when we were working on the piece and have thought about in all of our coverage of this campaign is, there are big themes that are rising up in the twenty twenty election, and some of them do have to do with privilege and accessibility and precedent. And if we are driving part of that conversation, I think that's exactly what our job is taking a stand. That's such a good question. I came up through newsrooms where you've held your personal opinions back a little bit. I don't know how it's been for you over your ear that said the political environment has changed is more divisive. It feels like the stakes are a little bit different. A lot of a lot of the aspects of twenty twenty that interest me in other areas are at play things like identity politics and exit experience and expertise. So my personal jury is still out on that. You know, magazine covers themselves tend not to be endorsements and certainly that has been our protocol, thus far, but it is a long election cycle, and we will be covering it as much as we possibly can, as many angles as we possibly can this money of the candidates as we can? And so, I think I think we'll see I spoke to Anna winter earlier this year. And she actually said that she vogue, it's different. It's not politics, but she gets into the politics. And she said, actually, it is time for me anyway, of my magazine to take a stab. Just live back doesn't think it's a moment, not to take a stand. I think you can't be everything to everybody, and I think it is a time when a time that we live in a world is humid. Well, no, a fake news and stretching to be kind. Let me say stretching the truth. I believe, as, as I think those of us. Who Conde nast believe that you have to stand up for what you believe in? I mean, it is an evolving editorial stance that she's grabbing and running with. Right. Right. And I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I think there are varying degrees of it. There are probably people who would say that I've been taking a stand in terms of what I believe in since my first cover, and they would be right. Whether it follows that I would endorse a particular candidate or particular platform. I think that, that's sort of what remains to be seen it open than do you because you have editors lesser. We're gonna talk about this month in a moment. The mother's day letter, but you could see yourself Vanity Fair endorsing a candidate. It's on my mind. It's on my mind. I mean we've we're talking as the Alabama state legislature has just passed a draconian abortion, Bill with no exceptions, even incest or rape. And I wonder is that the kind of case or would politician, who vowed to keep choice alive for women. Is that the kind of how do you feel about that? I mean that affects so many women's lives, and then I mean, I, I feel like it's a travesty and I. And I think that one thing that I've noticed, again, working in newsrooms over the last. Let's say five years, is that there are certain things that have become politicized that should not be politicized things like racism, things, like sexism, are not political issues. There is a certain level at which that's just the difference between right and wrong. So, yes, I mean, I think there are issues that I feel comfortable taking a stand on there are attitudes and kind of approaches that I feel comfortable, taking a stand on, and that is a great use of the editor's letter which is something that every editor handles differently. And if I may one of the exciting things about taking this role has been a little bit experimenting with certain things, and finding my voice on that particular platform, you'll system. I Zine of antifa, Mexico had Melania Trump on cover and go to lot of Gulf ridge in the words of David exe. Ray is that fair what why shouldn't Vanity Fair Malania Trump on the cover? I think Vanity Fair should I think that I think that. Again, I think people often interpret magazine covers as endorsements and. Know I can understand why that happens. But I think as you well know, in your career, sometimes getting the interview and broadcasting, it certainly doesn't mean that you are endorsing that person's point of view or what they stand for it means that there's something newsworthy at stake. And that is the attitude that I would take toward a cover like that. What about your own personal life? I mean, you know, you your mother is Indian, your dad American. He was a jazz musician. He was a Rhody. I think right manager, if he was under the gray was a folk musician. And then he was a Rhody for jazz musicians. Yeah. I mean juge Ellington, really big big name. Sarah vaughan. Yeah. But how did growing up as Rodica in Cincinnati Cincinnati? How did that go down? I wrote in, I think it was in my first letter that I always wanted to be named Jennifer. No, not Jennifer Elizabeth. We had a lot of Jennifer's in my class, you can imagine. And you know, I had a lovely childhood. It was just not a time when people were really. Aware of things like multiculturalism in their outlook, and perhaps contributed to my being maybe a little bit shy. But. I think one thing that I got from growing up with parents, like I had one my father who was very involved in the arts and culture. But in this very particular kind. You know, in the context of music and also music festivals. I got used to being around people who are very creative, and people who really right thrown ticket and, and don't necessarily conform to what else is going on. And then my mother who never expected to raise three American kids. But did so in the in the midwest and who really? Was as helpful as she could possibly be in terms of navigating American culture, but also really stuck to her roots on certain things. I wrote in my may letter. That I was, I was quite old before it dawned on me that I had never seen her where address, or skirt, she only ever wore saris, or solar Camis when she dressed up, and it was, you know, and so I would see her get dressed up when she would put a sorry on and they're so elegant. And she always just looked like herself. And I love that about her. And I think it had a profound effect on me that I only came to realize later on and just motherhood is must be somebody that you oversee Rapple with motherhood working motherhood. You're married. You have a child. I was speaking to Tina Brown of before, and she also married to children putting out Vanity Fair. And she, she said this to me about the pressures that I guess, all women face, you know, I think it's a constant agony really for any mother who is wildly busy. Am I am? I keeping faith with my children. And in fact, when Nicole Kidman got haram me. And she said, this is the times when I wasn't there to say. Say night, I want you to know I didn't say it actually I thought it was very poignant. Because I thought, you know, women always feel that way. I'm are there enough. You know, another times when I probably wasn't can you relate to that? I think maybe I have it a little easier. And I and I, I had knowledge that this is this is that I feel very privileged to be able to say this. Maybe it's because I am an older mother. And so I had a lot of my living under my belt before. I had my child, there are advantages and disadvantages to being an older mother. But I would say that's one of the advantages and also, my husband is a lead parent, and, and that makes a huge impact, I would say, I'm happy to have the opportunity to say this actually, that, that is, is part of what enables me to do my work, and we didn't plan for that. It just worked out that way. I'm very, very lucky that it did finally, when you sit here, you only one year in what is the Vanity Fair of the Rodica Jones era. Well, it's, it's, so it's something I'm thinking about a lot because of the archive launch. So the archive contains seven hundred thirty six issues a lot to go through. And I hope everyone will it'll be free for the first month. And then we want you to subscribe, but one of the things that, that I love about it is that with the benefit of hindsight. You really can start to get a feel for what I think of the narrative arc of a particular era. And when we as editors and journalists are in the middle of that, era, it can be hard to tease out. What are the stories of our time? What, what when we look back twenty years from now fifty years from now, what will we say about this moment, what I want to be able to say is that we found some of those narrative arcs we found a new generation of creators, and a new generation of talent, and we put them on our covers, and we raised issues that are important to talk about in the culture. Whether they have to do with equal pay or with male privilege or, or even just with, you know how we how we make entertainment or what we do with our technology, and how it affects our lives. So, so without wanting to be too grandiose, although at the just committed that sin. You know, my hope is that we will capture the spirit of our age as it's developing. It's always been a zeitgeist magazine, and that word is very important to us ridicule. Joe's thank you so much for joining me in queue from female editor in chief to a female director, making waves Rachel. Liz, spent a year documenting the highs and lows of campaigning against the establishment and challenging the status quo as so many would be freshman did in November's midterm elections. No down the house on the festival favourite award at Sundance, and it became the biggest documentary sale ever brokered when Netflix paid ten million dollars to show it to the world on its platform. It's an intimate. Look at history. In the making following four female insurgents, including Alexandria Okaz, yo, Cortez, all taking on the system. And as Lear's told our hurry, Sreenivasan. It is a very personal piece of work. What's the story you were trying? Tell well, I was really interested in telling a big story that was national in scope about people coming together from different parts of the country from different backgrounds, to really work together and find common ground, and unexpected ways. So I knew that this organization's brand new congress and Justice. Democrats were going to be recruiting candidates of among ordinary working people to to run together on a unified slate. And they would all be grassroots campaigns took no corporate Packer lobbyist funds. So I was very interested in what that would look like both on the human level of what does it take to believe, in yourself as an individual, you know, to, to put yourself out there in this way? And then also what does what does power look like on in institutional level around the country different political machines? And what does it look like to challenge that power from a grassroots perspective, seemed to be kind of different through lines here, want one about represe-? What about money and then really how they converge in politics? Yeah. Absolutely. That is very much, what I hope. The takeaway will be is that I think there's an intrinsic connection between money and politics and representation in politics, when we have a campaign finance system in which it's assumed that it's going to cost millions of dollars to run a campaign, a congressional campaign, for example, and that you have to have access to that, in your personal, Rolodex, to be considered viable, only certain kinds of people are going to run for congress and run for office in general. So, so really the only way to challenge that is to is to build a new pathway so that so that people from historically. Marginalized groups or underrepresented groups can have an an alternate path to building power in the community and getting to office that way. No, you fall. Four different women in the film. We've got a. Clip where they're kind of almost trying out a stump speech, just really getting confident, and they're all kind of in the room watching each of those take a look. You know, I grew up in poverty, I was raised by a single mother. And so, I learned how to fight early on. Now, the my eyes are open. I cannot, and I will not close them again the person running against it's complacent. But I'm not I'm my self can de-escalate a person with a gun and I'm not a police officer. So I wonder how come they can't do it? I'm running because of Corey Bush, I'm running because apology and swearing Jin I'm running because every day Americans deserve to be represented by everyday Americans and this time for ordinary people to do extrordinary things with rice, some hail intake, our last back. Thank you. A lot of people are going to be introduced to the idea that there is this infrastructure in place, that had had been working in the previous congress and it still exists. Now, what is it? What is it about? I mean, the new the new congress a brand new congress and the Justice Democrats. What were they trying to do? Right. So, so those groups were actually founded in two thousand sixteen and those by organizers that had come out of the distributed organizing wing of the Bernie Sanders campaign. So they had a lot of experience, connecting just thousands of volunteers around the country to do voter contact peer to peer voter contact through phone calls text messages at cetera. And so their idea was to, to really find candidates around the country, who would come from the communities. They sought to represent and really to have those twin goals of getting big money out of congress, while increasing representation in it. And, and the whole concept was that it being national slate these candidates would support one another through the process because it's very difficult. Many of them were first time candidates, but also that they'd be able to activate national networks volunteers to do some of the phone banking and text messaging, and as well as the small dollar donations. Is there anything similar happening on the Republican side? Well, brand new congress is actually a bipartisan organization. They were recruiting and still are recruiting candidates to be on the sleep from the Republican side as well when you look at this space. All of these people came with their own very personal reasons for why they decided to do this to themselves. Right. Tell us about the four candidates that you've profiled and why they came into this. Yeah. So each of the candidates, we profiled has a very personal high stakes reason for getting involved with politics and for running for office in the first place. And so the film follows Alexandria Cossio Cortez, who is motivated, really by the experience of growing up between two worlds in the Bronx and Westchester New York really seeing firsthand the facts of economic inequality, and the differential opportunities that you have based on zip code where you grew up, and in particular her family suffered a great deal during the financial crisis of two thousand eight she lost her father who was the main breadwinner at the time. And that's when she herself became involved in hospitality industry, just to keep the family of float, and to keep their home. So she really understands and that. Firsthand level. The economic inequality feels like, and then we also follow Paula Jean swear engine in West Virginia who comes from a family of coal miners, just about every man in her family has been a coal miner father's, ankles, grandfathers, and many of them have suffered and died from illnesses related to the fossil fuel industry black lung cancer. So she sees those facts, the health effects, and as well as environmental degradation, that's happening, and she's really motivated by the desire to challenge the false choice between a clean environment clean water to drink, and good jobs. She would argue that west Virginians and all Americans deserve both. We also worked with Corey Bush who is a nurse and a pastor near Ferguson in Saint Louis, Missouri. And she became a frontline Ferguson activist in twenty fourteen. Around the death of Michael Brown, who was shot by police officer and through that community organizing. She began to feel that the elected officials in her community were not as responsive as they could be to the communities needs. So she really stepped out to, to try to be an alternative there. And finally, we followed Amy Villela, who ran in Las Vegas, Nevada. And she had not been involved in politics at all in her life until in two thousand fifteen her twenty two year old daughter was unable to receive treatment at a hospital, Amy believes due to the fact that she wasn't able to present proof of insurance. So the insurance system got in the way of her care, and as a result, she suffered a pulmonary embolism or blood clot was not diagnosed, and she died at the age of twenty two in the richest country in the world. So Amy became politicised around the issue of universal healthcare, and single payer healthcare, in particular, clip of Amyot just want to take a look at two. My name's Amy. And I am not a career politician was someone who should not be able to run for congress single mom, I was a Medicaid, wick food stamps is running worked, my way through college, somehow and became a chief financial officer. Thanks a lot. This is not a game to me. This is not an opportunistic move for me got a good grip. I turn my back on an executive level job. I sold my house. I've gone in to dead. In the beginning. It was a tough decision, but I would do it again in a heartbeat. Now. She put everything on the line, and three out of four of the people that you profiled did not win their elections where you as a filmmaker ready for all four of them to lose. Because Alexandra Cosio Cortez pulled off an amazing upset. She was not expected to win that day. That's right. We were very prepared for all four of these candidates to lose. That was part of the reason that we chose people who had very strong personalities and a charismatic on screen presence, and they're very personal stories that we're motivating them. We knew that we needed those things to really carry the film forward with an uncertain outcome. But we were also very interested in looking at races that would allow us to explore the nature of power in this country really looking at what political machines look like in different parts of the country were thrilled. Of course it, it includes this historic victory. But I think that a lot of the substance of the film was consistent throughout. That, you know, the process from development through to execution. And I think we made sure to include the races in which the candidates don't win as part of that conversation. So we want to offer audiences a bit of hope but also. Realistic expectations about how hard it is to do this kind of thing to have a really nuanced conversation about. What these types of grassroots campaigns look like it was an interesting bit where Amy the character who just watched after she loses. She gets a support of phone call from Alexander Rakoczy, Cortez said. Might have to take one hundred of us for one of us to make it through one hundred of us half. Some of us have got to get. It's about the whole movement. Hundred of. There's the inverse of that is also you show that political power and machine and the interconnectedness of the money when you realize that Joe Crowley, Alexandra Okaz you Cortez's opponent. Here is making donations to races in different places around the country. Sure. I mean established politicians often donate to if they raise more money than they need for their own race. They frequently support one another and so certainly when you have an open seat like the seat Nevada's fourth district. Amy was actually running against the incumbent, and then he dropped out because of me do me to allegations, and it became an open seat. A lot of other folks jumped into the ring at that point. But most of the networks of power, both locally and nationally got behind one opponents Stephen Horford. And so Joseph Crowley, who was. He's was known in the party as a big fundraiser. He didn't run as noted in the film, you hadn't had a primary challenger in fourteen years, and never had a serious challenge. It's an eighty eight percent democratic district. So, so the money he raised generally around three million dollars a cycle, he, he dispersed to other races around the country. And in this case, Stephen Horford was one of the reasons he chose to support because AB below was race was almost a little bit of a bellwether of this, if we can kind of suppress or tamp down the opposition, it fares, better for this race in New York. It may have been that was the interpretation of her staff at the time, I have, of course. No idea what exactly the strategy was, it was also a swing dissed. Correct. And so, I think Crowley was also supporting. The D triple C endorsed candidates. Swing district sued anything come and sit down or agreed to an interview did not. We did try hard to get all of them. And none of them was willing to speak with us. This is not just a film for Democrats. Absolutely not. It's very much. There's no democrat versus Republican race that we cover in the film, and all four are democratic primary contests. And so the film's really about the relationship among money, party, politics, and social movements and money and politics is a nonpartisan issue. The issue of representation of regular working people in congress is a non partisan issue. We've had some great responses from conservatives who have seen the film at Sundance or voice, their opinions on Twitter, for example, just that even if they don't agree with the political positions. That the candidates take they respect the hustle, and the work and, and the goal of increasing representation in our democracy. So we hope that people can engage with it no matter where they are on the spectrum, regardless of whether they're democrat or Republican. What, what do you hope? A potential candidate watching this film walks away with well, I hope people who watched the film feel compelled to engage whatever their capacity is whether it's voting. I've seen a lot of people tweeting like oh, wow. I'm really I'm gonna make sure I vote now after this, and, you know, and if someone feels called to run for office, we've also seen a lot of people feeling inspired, after the film to do that. I hope it gives people, the sense that it's worth trying it's going to be hard. But that building networks of support in your community and among other candidates is really going to be a crucial part of that process. If you're a first time candidate most of American knows what happened now is Andrew Cossio Kartez after the election night, the other three women, you've stayed in touch with them where are they now, what are their plans? Yes. So I've stayed in touch with all four subjects of the film, Corey Bush is has already declared that she's running again, and Missouri's first district, her volunteers, actually never stopped campaigning for her. She took a bit of a break after last year's election, but they continued organizing. So she's throwing her hat in the ring, again, apology, and swearing gin and West Virginia has said that she's running again, but she's still weighing our options around a few different races. And Amy Villela is writing a book about her life experience. There's, there's a lot of details. Even that didn't make it into the film of all of the stories. But, but I think a lot of ways Amy's in particular. And so she. Is writing a broader story of her life as well as she's considering running again. But aiming right now towards twenty twenty two grand she might be spending this cycle supporting other candidates. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, so much, really appreciate it. And you can watch a documentary knock down the house on Netflix right now. But that's it for now. Remember, you can always listen to podcasts. See us online at I'm dot com and you can follow me on Instagram and on Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London. Hi, I'm Bill Kristol ever wonder what the godfather films breaking bad can tell us about the health of the American dream or what it was like to be in the Pentagon nine eleven or how supreme court justices talk to each other, when they get together at a conference. These are the kinds of questions I ask and topics I discussed with guests on my podcast conversations with Bill, Kristol, subscribe at, I tunes, wherever you get your podcast and check out our archive with guests like general David, portrays David Axelrod, ion her CLE, Ron brownstein and Justice Samuel Alito subscribed today to conversations with Bill Kristol.

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Amanpour: David Beasley, Mary Schiavo, Dave Eggers, Todd Douglas Miller.

Amanpour

58:02 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: David Beasley, Mary Schiavo, Dave Eggers, Todd Douglas Miller.

"This CNN podcast is brought to you by American Express, my credit guide a free credit score. And report and other tools to help you take charge of your credit. Your credit score is greater than a number. It's your story. Everyone and welcome to employ. Here's what's coming up. A devastating crash in Ethiopia kills all on board among the more than twenty United Nations workers. David Beasley head of the U N World Food Program joins us from the capital out. His Alba thus is the second Boeing crash in five months. Should passengers be nervous and the complicated. Morality of international development in war-torn countries. I speak with the novelist. Dave Eggers about his new book the parade. Plus, I'm town for Tyler eleven now. Five minutes, fifty two seconds and counting. This isn't Hollywood CGI director of the stunning new documentary. Apollo eleven Todd Douglas Miller sits down with our Hari Sreenivasan. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Chris John on poor in London. Just six minutes after takeoff. Ethiopian Airlines flight three oh, two crashed into the ground and killed all one hundred fifty seven people on board bound for Nairobi Kenya. It's passengers hail from at least thirty five different countries. Investigators now have the black box and they're looking into similarities with an Indonesian plane crash last October that was the same Boeing model as this airliner, and we'll have more on that in a moment. But first among those killed in Sunday's crash with twenty one employees of the United Nations the root is so frequented by them that has been dubbed the US shuttle and some of them were headed to an environmental summit in Nairobi. Where colleagues today held this moment of silence in their honor seven of the dead worked for the World Food Program. The UN agency tasked with feeding the world's most desperate people. It's chief is David Beasley. He's the former governor of South Carolina, and he flew to Addis Ababa, the European capital and moments before we spoke he'd received a phone call from vice President Mike Pence expressing his condolences on behalf of President Trump and the American people. Governor B's the welcome to the program. And we just want to offer us sincere condolences the UN is all so many people. What is it like for you as as one of the UN chiefs to be out, there processing and probably repatriating victims Christianise is devastating. This heartbreaking. You know? We lose people out on the field of battlefields natural disasters almost every single day. But we don't expect something like this. And on the UN system. We've lost over twenty people at the World Food Program. We lost seven is just devastating. But I'm here down in Ethiopia and ATI SABA meeting with our staff in this. It is really just so so sad. How are they dealing with it because it is just a catastrophe for all of you to have lost? So many people doing such hard work in so many difficult places in the how are you staff dealing with it? Well, you know, our staff there tough all over the world. They're dealing with war and tragedies, and devastation and hunger, and poverty, but this this hits home in such a way that you just can't imagine when seven of your your friends, your brothers your sisters, your colleagues, go down in a crash like this this an irony because we don't expect this to happen in today as I was meeting with our staff hundreds together here in ATI Sobotta. There wasn't a dry there were tear-drops and weeping and hugging, and it's just it's just hard to believe. And so are people putting their lives on the line everyday for others? But today they were coming together to really try to comfort one another. And I'll tell you the support that we've been receiving from all over the world is truly been remarkable. Even from the prime minister here in Ethiopia, I met with him today and president and other leaders that are calling in. It's it's been remarkable the amount of comfort that we're getting from from leaders all over the world. Gonna be easy. You you tweeted that in Addis Ababa today in solidarity with the Pri prime minister mourning the lives lost yesterday and pledging our full support together for the families are hard to broken the loss. What can you do have you flown from headquarters in Rome that what what what what's the best? You can do under the circumstances right now, you know, yesterday when I've got this this first phone call you can imagine probably one of the darkest days of my life. And then the secretary general of the United Nations called another started calling it immediately. We said what can we do words can only go so far? And so we jumped on a plane and headed down to Ethiopia to be here where where the accident took place where the death sucked place to comfort those, and I think, you know, words can only do so much. But I think just being here with the friends being here with the team and our teams in Rome as well because we lost colleagues that operate out of the Rome headquarters, but. But Christiane, I'm I want to say this because the World Food Program, we we were just one of the many organizations that loss some brave brave individuals and somebody asked me earlier said we're what were these people like, and I said, you know. The way they were just average people truly truly trying to make a world a better place. But on the other side there my superheroes. They lay their lives down every day. And so to come down here to just be with them to hug with them. I I don't know what else we can do of. And let them know we love them. And and and honestly, I think everyone of those brave souls that died on that plane. They would want every one of our people to to continue on because we're on we're on a campaign to in hung around the world, we're on a campaign to help people all over the world. And I don't think they want us to stop doing that. And so we want to continue that spirit that kindred spirit of loving our neighbor taking care of one another being brothers and sisters to one another. So it's a tough time. But we'll get through it. Governing. You you rightly said that their UN workers from other agencies there, there's there's yours the World Food Program who are really helping feed the starving around the world and the hungry around the world in war zones that people who are associated with the high commission for refugees. There are people who were in the migration department of the UN. And as you said, I just want to spotlight. One of them was Mick Ryan who is the global deputy chief engineer for World Food Programme skis, a an Irish citizen, and we have some video of him when he was in Bangladesh. Trying to set up the refugee count for the desperately needed row. Hinges kind of prime minister of Ireland has tweeted today, I'll thought so with families of those lost in the airlines crash, including the Irish engineer, Michael Ryan, Michael was doing life changing work in Africa with the World Food, Programme deepest sympathies to family colleagues and friends. So this really. Touches every every nation can do do you? Remember, michael? What would you remember about Michael's work? Well, you know, make as we call. He he was an engineer we had legit logisticians. And and counts, and you you name in every walk of life and make was was amazing. And I can honestly say because I've been at Cox's Bazar, which has been some of the most difficult place places in the world in the most. I mean, people literally would be dead right now if it weren't for our people like Mick who go there and take their expertise and put their lives on the line like like he did and others like Maria an exit. I can go on and on make represented the best of the best. But in my opinion, he he is the World Food Programme men and women like like make every day putting their lives literally on the line. And this is this is what not. Just a World Food Program, but UNHCR and and other agencies. They're out there doing this every single day in and we lose almost a person every single day out there. Whether it's a war zone or conflict or natural disaster or kidnappings or whatever the case may be and so we're used to tragedy. But this comes an ironic Irani this comes in a way, this a little bit irony through it as we would say what how do you think the work of the organization as a whole the UN will be impacted by the sudden loss of these people, I think the mood of the World Food Program. The United Nations is solidarity. It brings everybody together. What this tragedy has done is brought us together with a spirit that I think will rekindle our fire to go out there and continue to fight for people all over the world to do. What's right? Do us. Good. No matter the circumstances. No matter where no matter how far that's the World Food Program, and that's to commit. Of the humanitarian. So I don't think it'll dampen our spirit. I think in fact, you'll bring us together in such a way that it will rekindle our our spirit to do even more Governor, David Beasley, thank you for being with us head of the World Food Program on this very very difficult day. Thank you Christian. It's a real tragedy for the UN workers and the families of one hundred fifty seven people who were killed when Ethiopian Airlines flight three or two went down. It was a new plane a Boeing model known as the seven three seven max eight and that's important because it's the same model as an Indonesian plane, the crash in October also just minutes after takeoff. So should passengers on. These jets be worried Mary Schiavo is former inspector general of the department of transportation in the United States. And she's joining me now from South Carolina. She's also a lawyer who represents crash victims and has current litigating pending against Boeing Mary Schiavo, welcome to the program. Thank you. So you can imagine everybody around the world is focused on this because of not only the tragedy. But because it has so many similarities to what happened in Indonesia five months ago. What went through your mind when you heard that this model went down in Ethiopia? L? No, not again. And I think that's what's going through the mind passengers around the world and airlines around the world, and it's the uncertainty, that's so problematic. And that's why passengers are worried and the internet's literally lighting up with people saying how can I find out if I'm booked on this model of airplane? So the worry is real and it will not subside until they download the data from the black boxes which they got today. And I think they will have answers very soon, obviously, you know, experts and professionals have to get the evidence before you can start speculating, but we did have and we have a sound bite of an eyewitness from the ground who actually saw what happened as the plane came down. Let's just listen to this and see if it matches with some of the some of the thoughts, we may have about the crash. You'll have Otago in second. If he win it was hovering fire was coming from its tail then it tried to lift it to nose. But when it couldn't it was leaning side to side. Finally, when it passed over our house the nose pointed down in the tail raised up it went straight into the ground with its nose. Then exploded. I mean, it's quite descriptive. He's quite canceled. This gentleman about what he's saying. And I don't know Mary whether whether you found this important, but he said when it was hovering file woods with coming out of its tail. That's extremely important. Now aircrash investigators often are are, you know, suspect of eyewitness ear witness reports because sometimes there are problems with what they what they report and what happened. But here this is inconsistent with a problem with the flight controls or problem with the for example, like in Lyon air, it was the angle of tack indicator. Here the initial thoughts were the airspeed indicator. If in fact, there were flames coming from the aircraft, and if in fact there was smoke, and it was experiencing this problem because of smoking flame incident, then that doesn't at all sound like lion air, but up until the point of this. It did sound like Lionair same point in flight. Same airspeed? Same part of the flight on takeoff. Pilot reports of problem in his heading back to the airport. Those are also very similar to lion air. But if this I witnesses, correct? This is hugely important. It changes the way people will look at this. If it's borne out on the black boxes in the cockpit voice recording. Again, what you've just said is very significant we have to wait for the actual voice recordings on the other data on those black boxes. But. Is this model based on what's just happened with these two crashes isn't particularly susceptible to malfunction? Well, I think two instances of malfunction on a brand new plane at takes it past the the thought of this the susceptible. It's been shown because in new model aircraft ordinarily what newer models do is. They bring better safety statistics to have two fatal whole losses in less than six months means that you've got a problem. Maybe it's not the same problem on each flight. But absolutely Boeing we'll have to go back. They will have to go back to engineering. Not just correcting the flight manuals, not just saying pilots need additional training. If this is yet another problem on this model, they're going to have to go back and ask engineers and the literally take it back to when they decided to make these changes on the plane because the changes stemmed from changing the engines the seven thirty sevens been around since nineteen sixty seven and it's a workhorse. But something if this is now a second and different problem yet to boot that only. I think raises more concerns about what they need to do. And they need to go back to engineering. So let me just ask you about Boeing, and what it said in the immediate aftermath of this that they are not issuing new guidance. Does that surprise you? Here's the statement that they're saying safety is our number one priority. The investigation is is in its early stages. But at this point based on the information available, we do not have any basis to issue new guidance to operators is that I mean is that right or should they be more cautious? Even now. Well to me that suggest two things first and foremost, they don't know. So whatever information they have so far be it messages from the planes. You know, if the eight car systems were functional whatever information, they have it doesn't seem to fit with something that they already know about the airplane. So they can't issue new guidance? I I really don't doubt that if Boeing had an idea that oh my gosh lion. Air has happened again in these pilots are not they haven't had the training or this hasn't fixed. The problem. I can't believe that they would not issue immediate guidance. But to me that suggests that they know since not the same something else is wrong here. And we have to figure out what this is. And that's very disconcerting. But obviously, they wouldn't want to issue the wrong guidance and have them do something that causes even more difficulties. Maybe even another loss of of a plane again you saying it may not be the same. And you said that after you heard this I witnessed talking about the flames. Yes. And there was one mention yesterday of someone who said smoke, so this would be the second mentioned. But this makes it very different from lion air if that's correct. And I go back to TWA eight hundred that happened way back in nineteen ninety six and their dozen scores of witnesses swore that they saw a missile strike the plane a missile did not strike the plane the center fuel tank exploded, so I- witnesses can sometimes see things that look differently. And perhaps it could have been fire and smoke from the explosion. I don't know. No one knows at this point. But if this is true, and it was on fire in the sky. This is a totally different scenario than Lionair. So let's just Paul that for moment. And wait till we know much more evidence. However, given the five that this has now happened twice for whatever. Reasons. Do you think those in charge whatever authorities they are with their is the FAA in the United States, whether it's the Europeans counterpart over. Here on should they be grounding the planes. I know we've already said Boeing is not issuing new guidance, but should authors because as we know China, Indonesia Ethiopia, and I think the Cayman Islands all grounded these planes, right? Well, I think they should because there's just too much on known here until they know what happened, obviously, this is terribly alarming for passengers for pilots for operators until you know, what has happened. This is just this very scary situation where you have two planes that have fallen from the sky and their brand new planes. It just doesn't happen statistically speaking. So I think that a grounding is in order the way that it often works, for example with the Federal Aviation Administration in the United States of America. They don't do it until they have more evidence, for example, on the seven eighty seven that had the lithium ion battery problem they had several instances before they took action on the grounding of the Douglas aircraft ten way back in the seventies. It took many weeks before that was grounded in a really a public outcry. So the US Federal Aviation Administration really is reticent to do that. And they require a lot of evidence. And in this case, they're following the rest of the world, which is unfortunate. But. I do think until they figure out what happened here, they should be grounded. But that doesn't that doesn't mean that the FAA will do that without more evidence. They usually don't I mean, China has a lot of these planes. I mean, that's a lot of planes to ground and clearly that would have a big business impact on Boeing. And that's what's so interesting about who has grounded the planes, for example, Lionair that lost one in October. They have I think twenty five of these is a large part of their fleet, but they're grounded there and for an airline like southwest, which has a great number south west has a huge number of seven forty or seven thirty sevens. You knew would think that that wouldn't be such a big impact on their schedule. So for some of the countries in airlines that have grounded them that is a huge part of their fleet. And they have made a huge commitment. Which to me says they are concerned and rightly so I think so yes, I mean, I think on Boeing this is this is has a tremendous impact. Which is why I have just got to believe that they don't think it is the same thing. Because if it was I would have thought they would issued immediate guidance and said, get those pilots trained, and you know, let's get this under control, and they haven't done that. So that to me says they don't know yet. So Mary scandal. What does that mean, get those pilots trained? I mean. What is so different about this pain? I realized that there are differences, but on the other hand, well, just on the other hand four thousand five hundred or so have been purchased. They're the biggest and best selling of the Boeing models. I think in Boeing's history, they have a fuel-efficiency capacity. You have hit it exactly on the head. I think this is a watershed event. I think this is one of those seachange in aviation because now we have an aircraft. That says you pilot. We're not even going to tell you about this before lion air, they weren't told. We're going to program this plane. So it overrides the pilot. We're not talking about a drone aircraft here. We're talking about a seven thirty seven, and we put our trust in the hands of the pilots, and we expect them to be able to fly the plane. I mean, take it off of autopilot take off the commands and put your hands on the yoke or the stick and the rudder and do it in an emergency. And this model now says now we we didn't think it was necessary before lion air, even to tell you and the plane will override you. We've entered a new era of aviation where the pilot at least this is what this is saying to me might be secondary in the future in this is probably the crossroads will. This is a really important moment in that case because everybody is you say, yes, has it faith in the pilot's ability to override the automation unnecessary. Mary schiavo. Thank you very much. Indeed. We're not going to be hearing a lot more of the about this in the coming days. Your credit score is greater than a number. It's your story. Whether you're buying that classic convertible you've always dreamed of getting a loan to finally launch your cat translating app or applying for your first place without roommates American Express. 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That's Z E N N, I dot com slash CNN. Now all Ed travel remains the safest way to go. It is remarkably safe and an extraordinary feat of engineering, and in a moment, we get a look at what might be humankind's most impressive engineering marvel which was landing on the moon. It is the subject of an incredible new documentary, but I the novelist. Dave Eggers has gained a reputation for chronicling. The most important societal upheavals of our time. Whether the rise of Silicon Valley or the power of Middle East oil states, all Hurricane Katrina, his latest book takes on a different moral ambiguity. What happens when foreigners drop in to work and help in developing countries, which ravaged by war this novel set in just such an unnamed country is the parade. And of course, it comes as our conversation comes right in the wake of this crash. Eggers tells me that it was inspired by some real world personal experiences. Dave eggers. Welcome to the program. Thank you. Thanks for having this talk about your latest book. And it's actually a continuation almost of some of the books you've written which real like sort of expiration around the world. This one is really interesting short. But it's about to contractors who are building a road to connect a rural south to an urban north after war, and there's meant to be a parade to celebrate the completion of this road. But it doesn't all go to plan. Give us give us the sort of bones of the story without being spoiler. Well, these are two workers. They're just pavers their contractors that are doing the work as the same way they would anywhere in the world, they drop in without passports without knowing identities. And they're there to do a job, but they take drastically different. Views on their work and they approach it differently. One just wants to do the work and go home and get the job done. And he's a veteran of this kind of work, and the other sees it as an adventure, an invitation to engage deeply in the local culture, but both approaches are fraud and have their own complications. Well, interestingly, you know, you don't name them seventy you don't name what country they come from. The you don't actually give them names that called nine and four. Well, I, you know, I wanted them to be nameless and country list because I think at least here in the US we assume that characters like this are Representative of American adventures our interventions abroad, and this kind of work is not at all exclusive to the US in particular right now all over the world and in particular in in Africa. The Chinese are doing all kinds of road-building port building. Rail way building. And and so and you know years ago in south Sudan, I saw Swedish team building a road in rural south Sudan. And I thought it's I was interested in what the sweetest team. Parachuted into rural south Sudan was thinking. And what what was what did they gather or ruminate on terms of the implications of their work, and sort of where they were did they know the history today know, the impact and the possible consequences of that work. And so I wanted them to be kinda nameless because you could insert any sort of industrialized country into sort of the the work of these two guys. Let me just let me dig down into that. Because I do find it interesting that you are posing that question about what is the the ethics. What is the morality of intervention? Even when it looks like intervew. Mention to help. And you know, the one of the reviews said that Eggers Abeille weaves in a host of ethical questions over one man's responsibility to the other what makes help transactional versus simply kind and whether the road in this case, it self will truly bring safety and progress to the provinces at seventy miles an hour and Eggers is determined to counter the notion that social and economic improvement work hand in hand do agree with that. Yeah. I that's well said I hadn't seen that. I. Yeah. You know? I don't think that I wanna make it clear that neither one of these men is at fault. There isn't a villain at least immediately apparent here. And really they are such small players in a game. That's just that. They are. Again. Replaceable in they are just tools used by a machine that you know, is far far larger than just their work and just their job. But within that, you see these two different approaches where the one man says it's not for us to intervene to to help to aid in any way with the people along the roadside that might need our help. We are there to do one job and leave. So he who's called four has just actually not even looking left and right is looking straight down to the the finish line. The the end of their work and nine sees it as a way, you know, we have things that these people might need. I have a duty to intervene where there where I might be able to help and he's incredibly naive, but it comes from an inherent sort of openness and goodness almost but. Both approaches have some deleterious consequences. Right. And of course, their work in the end collectively has consequences far beyond what they saw. Yes. I can see you struggling over not wanting to do on your own. I know the last book you wrote was about a coffee grower caught up in the civil war the terrible war in in Yemen. Which actually is not so much civil war as one of outside intervention by big powers. And I just keep thinking about the previous one you wrote the circle which was such a huge bestseller, which was a head of its time warning about a sort of a Google like campus and the whole sort of intrusion into people's privacy. And and how this technology and AI can starts to control the environment and control human behavior. Explain what you're seeing. And and where you where you try to examine the interface between humans and and their environment. Will I'm also interested in. In the workers who individually think that they might be doing good who are unaware of the larger design, and that was definitely the case in the circle individually, each one of those people working at this, you know. Presumably idealistic tech campus think that they are improving humanity and connecting people, but they don't realize that the larger design is. Surveillance capitalism, and sort of a an effort to you know. Create a monopoly to aggregate power and wealth through one narrow technological conduit. And so in all of those cases. Yeah, I'm interested in the people that are part of the machinery, and and and really feel like day to day that they are helping, but sometimes they don't they aren't aware of either the unintended consequences of the consequences that have been preordained or planned, but without their knowledge. I wonder whether you even imagine that after you've written the circle and after it, you know, with such bestseller. All this has come out about all the tech companies, and whatever Facebook, Google, all of the the sort of mackinac that are going on and the and the. You know, people have really worried about what this is going to do to the species to addiction to as you say, monopolies and and control. I wonder whether you imagine that it would come true. And I guess as a corollary to that. Would you support, you know, democratic presidential candidate Senator Elizabeth Warren who said she would wanna break up these big tech monopolies? I'm I support what she's saying. Absolutely. I think it's they are monopolies, and they're acting in monopolistic way. And so we have laws that are meant antitrust laws that are meant to combat that because it's not good for a democratic society. It's not good for a capitalist society. And so I do support her. And then I thought it was very bold of her to propose it has to be part of the twenty twenty conversation. And you know, I I had a dim view of this. When I wrote the book five years ago, I thought. Things were trending one way they've gotten far worse. But the one thing I'm gratified by encouraged by that when I wrote it most people were still trusting I think of the motivations and the business practices of a lot of these the larger tech companies and right now, I think most people are highly suspicious and highly wary and very open and more regulation and examination that's at least gratifying. Well and last year you came back to this topic. You did a lecture in which you called the digital human rights. And you've said, you know, spoken a lot about it. Here. You said talk about the complicity he had digital tools generally degrade us specifically they make us into needy maniacs. And the tech companies that we distrust act. No better. No worse than we ourselves act with these tools, I'll complicity in the rise of these companies and their increasing power is impossible to avoid or denied every bit of power. These companies have is power that we have. Given them. So basically you they're saying that is not the smartphone or apple or Osaka. That's fold. It's us who's of fold is that what you're saying. Well, the odd thing is that we don't have to use Facebook. There are no laws that require us to use a platform that we inherently distrust and has been proven again and again to abuse and have disdain for the privacy of all of its users. And so there are so many ways to connect with each other online and share photos, and all these other things that we want to do these wonderful things that we can do without having to empower a very bad actor, and so it's funny to you know, and frustrating, I guess is that all this power. All this wealthy aggregation of so much, you know data. It's all data that we've given them for the most part. And so we do have choices and consumers really have power. And I feel like if collectively we said, well, this company Facebook, I think is the worst actor of all of them. If we said we no longer trust you we're not going to participate. In your plan. We're opting out and we're going to a platform like knee. We which is a nonprofit version of Facebook. I mean, it strikes me as pretty Golding when I've read now in retrospect that a lot of the great geniuses, the great innovators of these tech. And of these devices, we're told didn't even have their own children to use them until a certain age and here now we're talking about the responsibility of citizens, but citizens who become addicted. I mean, this is like being on a drug. How do you get off it? Yeah. I can't count the number of tech inventors and innovators and very powerful people who send their kids to Waldorf schools, which ban all technology at school and in the home. And so they know something that a lot of users don't know, which is the highly addictive, and you know, deleterious sort of consequences of these tools, especially in the hands of very young kids. It's. They know best. And I think that so many parents feel like they have to give their kids devices at a young age to keep them up with societal expectations or educational demands. And and this just isn't the case, they sometimes he's tools are way too powerful to be given to very young kids. And and I think that we just have to examine that as parents as educators schools everybody really has to slow down a bit and say, really what's best for the development of young minds. And can we just sort of not channel all of our kids education through screen, one of the most adept uses of social media and all this is the president of the United States. I mean, he is a real Mazda of this ought you followed him for a while. I mean, you've been to rallies in Texas and the rest, and you've come about come away with some really interesting observations, notably perhaps that. The donor. Trump could win again, you right? We in the media have long seen Trump is a racist buffoon and the threat, but his supporters see him as a man who gets things done who speaks candidly, who's engineered an economic boom, the envy of the world, etc. Etc. Etc. Just give me some, you know eyewitness accounts of your reporting to what makes you lied to your conclusion, I'm here in San Francisco, we're in a bubble and. We make certain sumptious including that he's very vulnerable and will be relatively easy to beat in twenty twenty. Then I went to the rally in Paso, where he rallied on one side of the street and Baidoa work was on the other. And I was shocked to see over the course of the day about seventeen thousand people line up to go to his rally across the street, maybe three or four thousand people that go to beta works rally and the people at the Trump rally were a very diverse audience L passes, very diverse city about eighty percent of the Tino. And and it was reflected in the audience, and I interviewed so many people who are so just a rational in in their support and why they supported him, and they ignore so much of the tweeting and so much of the madness that we see in the president's behavior because the. Economic results of the last few years, they value and they see their 4._0._1._K going up. They see employment opportunities available. They see relatives who are in the military coming home. They see all these sort of practical effects of the president's policies, and they're they're giving him a a real these make some formidable for twenty twenty. So I came away thinking all right? It's important to go out and actually interviewed people and not make assumptions or not get your information third hand from couch and San Francisco exactly well, well, well, be hard to beat. Well, put Dave Eggers. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. Now where were you? When man I stepped on the moon. Everybody who was has their own searing memory and their own story. Neil Armstrong setting foot out there and declaring one small step for man. One giant leap for mankind is the stuff movies and dreams of made up. But this very real heroic feat is the subject of a new documentary showing us that moment fifty years ago, this July in a whole new light. And here's a clip from the trailer. Whole program is designed to get to American food alone in backing in Barra safely, the enormity of this event is something that only itchy. We'll be able to judge. Todd. Douglas Miller is the director of Apollo eleven. He's been speaking with our hurry strain of us in about it. You never before seen footage is often used as a marketing gimmick. But in this case, it completely changed the composition of your film. Yeah. I mean initially on. This was a tail end of two thousand sixteen we cast a very wide net within the spiderweb network of NASA facilities and also the national archives and three or four months into the project. We get this Email from the national archives are contact their archivist who said that they had had this collection of large format material that was previously, you know, on cataloged. They didn't really know exactly what was on it. They did have written on some of the reels Apollo eleven some of the dates in and around the launch, which was July sixteenth nineteen sixty nine. So that begin the process of discovering exactly what these were how much footage are we talking about? So hundreds of reels, and it just wasn't a national archives. We also had. Access to another hundred reels of engineering seventy millimeter footage. So that's all the great slow motion. You know, rocket of the rocket taken off we had a ton of that stuff to go through. And then if that wasn't enough we were also alerted to over eleven thousand hours of mission control audio that was uncovered by eleven thousand hours. What is what are they recording for that long? So it was really unique. It was one inch tape if you can imagine if you're sitting Mitch control you have thirty flight controllers each one of those guys that's on a headset is recorded on a track in the back and every word that was uttered in mission control had been recorded and sitting gathering dust. Yeah. And not only that the back room each flight controller had an entire back room full of other flight controllers, so they were all on loop. So it was really an essence about sixty tracks at all needed to be sinked up. Why take this on? I mean at this point. We've probably. Have a a memory of seeing that black and white footage. Why why do this as a film, you know, it really started as an editing exercise, you know, with my archive producer, Steven Slater? Who's based in the UK? He had been sinking up a lot of Michigan troll footage with audio because when they regionally shot it didn't have any sound on it. So, you know, it gets addictive, you know, to try to figure out what these guys are saying at what time because they really shot it with no regard for if there was going to be in the audio. They were just kind of getting beauty shots of these guys working documented for historical purposes. Once the large format stuff came into our purview. It felt like we were all, you know, wanting to work on something like this when we're kind of it was a perfect team for this to land on. So you find all this video film, and you find all this audio. What are you learn about this? We learned a lot. I mean, probably the greatest part of working on the project was working very closely with NASA chief story Bill Berry and his team obviously the national archives as well. And then the families in Buzz Aldrin, and Michael Collins, Neil, Armstrong, sons, Rick amok. They were one of the first people that we showed this footage to before. We even started the process of anything. I mean, they were floored like everyone else, you know, just when you thought you'd seen it all and particularly for them. I mean, they they were so gracious with their time and helping us out, you know, really get the accuracy of not only the mission. But also just the spirit of who their fathers were in people that that worked with them. What is it about this moment? I mean, which might not happen ever again. Maybe until we set foot on Mars or aliens, come down and talk to us. It almost seemed to unite the entire planet. Yeah. It was not lost on us at any time can speak for the entire team. It was just such a unique experience to to witness the sheer scope of this. You know, you put yourself back in the sixties with JFK, and this charge to the country to try to drum up support for the space program, which is very expensive to send someone to another planet or another world, and all the political strife that was going on, you know, JFK himself a year after his his speech in in Texas is assassinated in Texas, his brothers is assassinated, Dr Martin Luther King is assassinated, the background of the Vietnam war. But throughout all of that, you have hundreds of thousands of people that are spread across tens of thousands of companies that all came together to accomplish this one goal. Of putting a human on another world. And it was it's just miraculous. You've got a clip of that that I wanna show as well. It starts with just kind of a long shot of how many people dizzying even to think about it as the six minute Mark downtown for eleven now, five minutes, fifty two seconds and counting those deployed verify. Go on CBS verified, go along the mongo. Butcher flavor. Over-long? You miss are over my go launch their over over Llano or my milk launch. No. Channel. We have some seven point six million pounds of thrust pushing the vehicle upward vehicle live ways, close to six and a half million pounds is a lot of people. And that's just a clip from the film to illustrate your point. You know, one of the things that I remembered, and I think most people nowadays if when they go to your film, they'll see is one of the first shots you had emission control. It was almost like it was a uniform. It was all white shirts half sleeve with a tie. And almost all men. There was one woman in the room. But really I was like, wait a minute. What's her story? Yeah. I mean, that's the beauty of of really doing the research and going deep into the archive with with the entire Apollo program. There is one woman. Her name is JoAnne. Morgan Paulo eleven was the first time that she actually was in the firing room which was the launch control center, which was Jason. To the pad down in Florida with what was called Cape Kennedy at the time now today keep Canaveral and before the Saturn five rocket launched. She was just an amazing engineer. She was there on her own credentials. Didn't matter that, you know, she was a female, and she ended up having a very long history with NASA work there for forty three years retired and still alive today. And it just wasn't her. We had unfortunately, hopefully, this ends up on a Blu Ray or DVD. There was a twenty five year old whip smart Texan that was in the back room emission control. Her name was poppy north cut. She actually on Apollo thirteen was in the front room. But there's a moment after lunar liftoff when they're arguing the flight controllers in the front room arguing over flight trajectories. So they consult with the backroom poppy comes on and basically just schools these guys and while their numbers are off and she's trying to articulate why they're wrong and it takes about five minutes. As for her to finally get through to these guys. But it just highlights the great effort, you know, of all just not, you know, male female minorities across all. Races to put this thing together. One thing that surprised me was relatively speaking. How advanced technology in some way was they were getting near real time heartbeats of these astronauts, and I had no idea that in nineteen sixty nine we had the tech. And then afterwards, I was stunned by how low and how cool they are. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I have a tough time, you know, calling my sister back in Ohio. So it's it's just a testament to. The technological advances that the Apollo program did certainly, you know, if you listen to the air to ground transmissions it scratchy most of the time it's tough stuff to get through. But they did it and they developed ways to communicate. And and that was just one of dozens of new technologies that were invented to put someone on the surface of the moon. He at one point at the take off. I think buzz Aldrin's heartbeat is around eighty eight and then on the other end of the spectrum. Neil Armstrong's heartbeat when he's about to land. The thing is what one hundred and fifty five that is me on a treadmill run. Right. I mean, that's really exerting ourselves. And here he is that the stress of that moment, you could see was in his heart right there. Yeah. But when you listen to Neil Armstrong's canes, they're landing in never wavers. So he might have. Been stressing on the inside, but on the outside, and it goes for all of the Michigan trollers during that moment, Charlie Duke, famously says copy eagle, you know, you got a bunch of guys ready to turn blue here. We're breathing again. And it just goes to show of the nerves of steel, and you have to remember buzz and Neil both were Korean war veterans. They flew missions dozens and dozens of combat missions and in in Korea Bose himself shot down a MiG, and then pull out a camera and photographed the pilot ejecting these guys had been, you know, hardened veterans of not only war, but they were test pilots and unlike some of the predecessors of the space program, they were educated Neo had a degree in aeronautics buzz went to MIT and his his nickname was docked at rendezvous Michael Collins was at graduate West Point and ended up in the air force. So these. Guys have been around the block. And it's no, you know, now, you know, why they were chosen to go about this extraordinarily. And it was flying required back. Then. I mean, the we kind of take it for granted now. But to get these things to connect and disconnect and really ultimately the landing of where the module landed was by hand. Yeah. I mean, Neil Armstrong, certainly, they had you know, I mean, very archaic computers compared to now, but to get them to a certain altitude, and then Neil actually, Neil Armstrong himself guided the the lunar Lander down to the surface of the moon going through all this footage. What surprised you? I think if you see the suiting up shots that was the most surprising for me. I'd seen those images a lot over the decades. But I never seen him like that and juxtaposed with a real that came shortly after we had that real which was from the day of the launch the morning the launch they're getting suited up to go on this amazing thing journey there was they were doing the same thing if you days before on a dry run, and they were kind of slapping themselves on the back, but jovial they did the same thing. They went into the Astro van drove out to the pag on the elevator. Went sat on top of the rocket came back down and went home. But on the day of the launch. You just see this look on their faces. There was no joking. And you could just see the the weight of what they were about to do written all over it. And it just really snapped in the focus I think for all of us their responsibility that they had to do that. And also a very small way. Our responsibility to the imagery that you know, we were lucky enough to be granted to work with. I didn't realize one of the first things that happened on the moon was to set up a camera. I mean, he just like, well there's scientific era actually sets up the camera, and you can see all these shots at Buzz Aldrin coming down. I mean, it was there certainly forethought put into what they should do. And how it should be documented for the entire world to see. Yeah. The training was immense. They you know, they were Hearst down to the second. Exactly all the moves choreographed. One of the kind of humorous things was when they landed. They were actually supposed to sleep. There were supposed to have a sleep period. But of course, you land on the moon anybody who's to anybody's going to go to bed. So they requested if they could, you know, perform their lunar excursion activities, the VA, I they were granted that and some of that imagery that we saw. At first, quite frankly, the engineers that Goldstone California weren't ready for it. So that's why the flipped upside down. There wasn't. You know, originally, it was supposed to go to Australia and just the way that the signal was sent to the earth. And ended up at California. So, you know, luckily, we do have the imagery and lucky for me as a filmmaker Buzz Aldrin documented with a sixteen millimeter camera looking right down the barrel. The ladder Neal's for steps juxtaposed that capsule with what just happened a little while ago. Spacex ending a capsule up. I mean, you look around in every shot of Buzz Aldrin, Neil Armstrong. There's just switches in gear and buttons and lights everywhere. And now, it's this clean white wall to LED screens. I mean, it's amazing that these three humans had to know how to work all of that manually what we've accomplished and fifty years on the on the technology front. I think is is truly amazing, and I'm actually encouraged that companies like SpaceX working with NASA and all the great. Space programs all around the world. It's a very exciting time for the future of of space travel because we're going to have to get out there. You know, at some point why doesn't the government undertake anything like this could it should it. Is it going to be replaced by private companies? And is that the right way to get going in space? I can speak to the historical context, which is John F. Kennedy made a charge to the country and went out and actually sold us. So there was a political will that was established to make this happen. Our legacy of Apollo I think should be followed up. It's inevitable. We're as we grow as a population worldwide where we need new places to go. Whether it happens, you know hundred years from now thousand million it's going to happen and Apollo eleven serves as a the entire program serves as as a primer for us to to get back out. There is that what you want people to take away from. The film. I think so but also just to be reminded that, you know, over the decades, and as time has evolved, you know, we kind of get into our boxes if you will and events like this bring us together and unites, and they certainly did back then and they certainly can't do again. Thanks so much joining us. Thanks for having me. Well, I for one Connecticut enough of Paulo eleven and I'm going to be running not walking to go see this film. And this Harry said in a sign of just how much private industry is taken over the space program space eggs, just fully tested. It's driving cabs. She'll sending into the international space station and then back to earth, the company hopes the Cavs. She will soon carry human, astronauts, which would indeed be a landmark achievement for private enterprise. And that is it for now. Remember, you can always listen to a podcast. You can see us online at Amazon dot com, and you can follow me on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London. Are you interested in learning how great companies grow? The download the Martin podcast. The mar- tech podcast tells the stories of real world marketers who use technology to generate growth in a chief business and career success from advertising to software as a service to data getting brands authentically integrated into content performs better than TV advertising. Typical life span of an article about twenty four to thirty six hours before reaching out to the right person with the right message and a clear call an action that it's just a matter of timing ready to learn the secrets of technology driven marketing than download the Martin podcast. Just search Martin M A R T E C H wherever you download your podcasts.

United States United Nations Dave Eggers Neil Armstrong Boeing Mary Schiavo Ethiopia engineer Buzz Aldrin NASA Boeing David Beasley Ethiopian Airlines Facebook president South Carolina prime minister Todd Douglas Miller Rome
Amanpour: Dee Margo, Mary Bauer, Ed Lavandera and Michael Chertoff

Amanpour

58:08 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Dee Margo, Mary Bauer, Ed Lavandera and Michael Chertoff

"This podcast is brought to you by book dotcom in partnership with the cantata row tourism board, book dot com. The number one site for all inclusive beach vacations tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Zanny offers thousands of affordable. I wear styles starting at just six ninety five visits any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. Hello, everyone and welcome to on four. Here's what's coming up. Say tremendous numbers of lives. We stand against. The president and a potential twenty twenty rival take to Texas thousands of miles away. Congress appears to compromise on keeping the government open. We get the board a story from the Republican mayor of El Paso and the humanitarian face of immigration from those closest to it plus fears about big brother, the former secretary of homeland security on the dangers of government surveillance from China to America. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. President Trump says that he's not satisfied with a potential congressional breakthrough to keep the government. Open house and Senate leaders from both parties had emerged last night with a tentative agreement giving the president some funds for the border barriers, but not the five point seven billion that he's demanding speaking in the cabinet room today. The president said he didn't expect another shutdown. But he also said this. So I can tell you that am I happy I land. So I just got to see it. The answer is no, I'm not I'm not happy. But am I happy with where we're going thrill because we're supplementing things and moving things around and doing things that phantasm and taking from far less really from far less important areas. So on the Goshi, we're working on the deal in Washington. The president was in El Paso, Texas last night on the border rallying his wall loving base. But he also had one eye on the democrat Beddoe overall who was holding his own rally less than a mile away over. Of course, ran for Senate in two thousand eighteen any might also run for president in twenty twenty as a congressman he represented, El Paso. President. Describes Mexican immigrants as rapists and criminals. We had the chance to tell him in the country immigrants commit crimes, including violent crimes at a lower rate than do Americans who were born in this country. Breath. So has been the safest city in the United States of America. Not in spite of the fact that we're a city of immigrants, but because we are a city of immigrants. L Paso has become a touchstone of wall politics, the city is more than fifty miles of fencing along the border. So what is the reality de Margaux is the Republican mayor of El Paso, and he joins me now Mamu go welcome back to the program. Thank you. I don't know who would have thought that El Paso would have become such an important touchtone as I said in this whole political drama before we get to that though. Can I just ask you about the news? What you think of the compromise deal that's being mooted on border security to try to keep the government open and the float? I haven't really seen anything other than here in the headlines on the news about it. So I don't know any specifics probably not qualified to comment, but from my time in the Texas legislature. I would say that incremental. Moving up incrementally is a way to do it for negotiations. And frankly that remind perspective and from the perspective there were no winners on our shutdown. I don't care how the pundits portrayed it is who won. And who lost? There were no winners. I mean, you have your right? We spent many of those thirty five days of government closure talking to so many people furrowed federal workers. I mean, just so many people who had such a hard time getting through each day and surviving during this this shutdown. But I guess, you know, you all sitting there at the sort of nexus of the great political drama of of time. So when you had the president and a potential twenty twenty rival that rallying last night. What did you hear what did you take away from everything that was said? I'm not sure there was any revelation any revelations from the comments of either from to or from the president. I was trying to personally meet with the president beforehand to visit with him because I've said for months at if you wanna understand the border, and how we work with Mexico you need to come to the largest city on the Mexican border. That's been intertwined with Mexico for almost four hundred years, we understand it better or one region that exceeds two and a half million people, and we're the we're the place you ought to become into talk about it. And yet did you actually manage to say that to him? Did you meet him? I got a handshake. But that was the extent of it. We we thought we would get a little bit more time than that. But that was the that was truly the extent of it. Did you feel like he was trying not meet you that he knows that you disagree? He knows that you have different FOX at your disposal than he talks about. I mean, did you feel it was deliberate that he didn't want to make time for you? Because of what you say, actually, let's just play. What what he's actually said about you. There's no place better to talk about border security, whether they like it or not because I've been hearing a lot of things all the wall didn't make that much of a difference. You know, where it made a big difference right here in El Paso. I don't care whether a mayor's Republican or democrat. They're full of crap where they say it has made a big. How do you feel hearing that? And what would you on to be to that? I love to hear that over and over. Bottom line is I've never been against a physical barrier on the on the on the border. I think that's part and parcel to an entire process from a strategy standpoint for control of the borders, and we are sovereign nation. I've never disagreed with the with the president on any of that. All I've tried to do clarify his comments related to the fact that we were not a lawless community with high crime rates before the fence went up under the Bush Bush presidency when in two thousand eight. Certainly it is a contributing factor towards to our safety here. But it is it was not the sole panacea prior to and that's all I've tried to say, I've not I've not spoken against physical barriers of any type. I think that's part of that whole process. There's you mentioned earlier there really is about seventy eight miles of of fence in the El Paso sector for the border patrol. It's not continuous the the fencing that went up under the Bush administration in two thousand eight was primarily a replacement of about ten miles of of chain link that that had holes in it and was porous. So. To my knowledge. It wasn't expanding the the fencing it was merely improving it, and you know, to your point, and I do want to dig down because it is worth constantly putting the facts out there on the crime figures on what wall did and didn't do and have you respond to them. But it was interesting better or roll talks about. The pass being one of the safest cities in the in the in the US right now. But so a mcallen, Texas and San Diego, California, which is cities along the border sort of making a point that actually many of the cities along the border a safer than those further inland. Would you agree with that? Well from our standpoint, yes, I know firsthand El Paso is is rank as the safest city in the United States for a population greater than five hundred thousand. That's according to the uniform crime statistics reported by the FBI or to the FBI. So we've been say, but a lot of that has to do with our police force in our community policing and the things we've been doing for many years, and but the issues related to violence when it came to our region had to do with WADA's and the drug cartels when they were fighting it out a few years ago, but never came over to El Paso. We have a significant law enforcement presence here. We have a large military presence here with Fort Bliss. I just want to put up a gruff right now. Just to make people understand what you've been saying in terms of the the spikes in in crime and the troughs in crime. So we see that it was very very high crime rate in the early nineties, then it started to. Dramatically or did dramatically drop off in two thousand six and it stayed pretty low. And then the wall was built around two thousand eight and it's went up a bit the crime, but it pretty much stayed pretty though. So basically what you're saying, and what the graphs show and the FOX and the numbers show is that El Paso was getting safer and safer and less and less crime ridden, even before a war went up. That is true in our population's been growing. I will say that the fence, and I prefer to use the nomenclature Fendt. In certain neighborhoods from an anecdote standpoint, the the residents feel very safe because of that, and it did it the the most dramatic drop in our crime rate had to Kerr with automobile theft. Starring that timeframe, which is which is not you don't have that has broken out at the number broken out. But I've seen because we had because the poorest holes in the chain link fence people were were coming over and stealing vehicles and driving them back across to what is and that fence had a significant impact on that. So I've said that from day one it had an impact on crime. It had an impact on the feelings of of safe and security in certain neighborhoods. But overall the crime rate was not dramatically dropped. I mean, I feel like it's my job is America. Explain to people outside that we weren't this lawless crime ridden city before the Finch game in El Paso, a viable community. The six largest community city in the state of Texas in the nineteenth largest city in the in the in the United States where a major player, and and the rest of the world needs to understand that. So you've just said that I don't know whether you just petty crime or non drug related crime and non sort of violent crime beef talked about the how it stops some auto theft and pop some property crimes as well. So that was that positive aspect to the fence, but on the issues of the president talks about whether it's illegal immigration, whether it's drugs, whether it's you know, he's conjured up, you know, hordes of rapists and murderous coming over. It hasn't had an effect the ball. I mean is it even is there that crisis? I guess I'm trying to say. At L Paso, the border. Well, let me stated that the physical barriers according to customs and border protection. And the police do channel people and drugs into certain areas. Most of the drugs that are picked up on illegally come through our ports of interest. Their physical barriers do channel people in certain ways. But they're not that the total resolution to border security, which nobody seems to fully define anyway out of Washington. But if you look at if you look at the geography of Texas from El Paso to Brownsville, it's almost a physical impossibility to put a fence from El Paso to Brownsville you can put it in certain spots. But the majority of Texas is owned is private land. So that won't work. So you need more manpower, you need technology. You need a kind of a combination of all of the above. And I would rely on the experts at borderlands at homeland security to tell us what they really need and do. You sort of intimated the Pabst those in Washington and not quite clear about the parameters of what they seem to be talking about. Well, you surprised when the president we understand via d- off script and ad-libbed. About loving and wanting more legal immigration into the United States when he said that when you're listening to the speech, what did you think? Well, I do think that is something that needs to be done. I think that lottery system is not functioning at all. My former firm was trying to bring in an underwriter from Lloyd's of London for several years in the lottery system, they lost out every every year for three years and gave up but wh when we're at below four percent unemployment we've got to do something more on on legal immigration. And I've also said though, if if you're DACA or a dreamer, and you serve in the military. It ought to be axiomatic that you get US citizenship. If if you so desire, and for the others as well, if you're already here, and that that ten to twelve million group that that's here under false social security numbers. But earning a living and raising their family and not involved in any criminal activity, you vet those people, and you give them green cards so that they can have legal ways of paying tax. And not just Bogo security numbers and anybody that doesn't pass a criminal background check ought to be deported. But that's the only we're going to deal with that. And I know we've got folks who say, oh, they're here illegally can't deal with my my comment is the has already broken deal with the egg is already broken. So what President Trump said ad-libbed tring state of the union. Do you feel that that that was part of breaking the egg part of the g-? In other words, moving along the road of of accepting what you're just talking about that there needs to be more, legal immigration and proper immigration reform. President Trump is unique personality within the Republican party. He's a president that. We've never seen before like him. I'm not sure we'll see after him. But he is in a position to be able to do some things that I think others may not have been able to. So I would hope that he would move forward with that. He's intimated about immigration reform and our nation needs it. Well, you politician mayor and you've accurately described the president he's a unique apparition in the political firmament, but one that might be able to get certain things done. Do you see that happening and the possibility of that happening by his actions by his politicking on immigration, for instance, as we've just been discussing do think he can deliver as you think that as you've described? I think if he wants to can deliver. Yes. So it's up to him to determine that. And I would be hopeful that he would right. So let's us you again to talk about the the real tragedy that we see which is a human tragedy of all this conflict of illegal, and legal and asylum, and I'd know what and these children and families being separated at the border. And this this horrendous situation does not seem to be getting any better, in fact, potentially even worse. I would like to please play for you. What you told me about this situation of detentions when we spoke actually back in June. Christiane we've been given no information regarding the children where they are while we know is being distributed throughout the United States, which was surprised to some of us. We heard about him being placed in Michigan. We heard about me in place to New York Rhode Island. Elsewhere. That's the reason we came together as a group of mayors say enough's enough, this is ridiculous. This is not what we're about is a nation. So may that was in June. Have things better near where you of because their reports that are very very upsetting to read. I just want to know in your location have things got better. The numbers are increasing. We're getting somewhere between three and four hundred day. These are families that are not being separated the tornado shelter that was that was set up for accompanied minors visited last summer was disbanded in January, and they went off to their sponsors as I said, we get the word I have for days about three to four hundred they're processed through is they come into El Paso wants to discharge from eyes and our NGO. The Annunciation house has a has a approximately twenty shelters coordinates, and they are here families together parents are are given ankle bracelets, and processed and then they're they go off to their sponsors. The bus fare, airfare, whatever it is that does that whatever they need. They're here. Are usually twenty four to a maximum of forty eight hours some as long as as ninety six hours, but I don't know that your viewers fully understood when CB P B is a law enforcement agency. And the way it was structured is that that HHS would be the the entity that would be equipped to to take care of those that were were held in detention and they've quit doing that. I think there was a nicer court decision as I'm told that said you can't hold any immigrants that are seeking asylum longer than twenty days. So they're they're processing them and releasing them to their sponsors. So you just mentioned the border patrol protection unit, and you also mentioned the health and human services. What does it feel like as I let you go as mayor of El Paso that your city is being really a punching bag as what of in the middle of all of this very very heated politics into an extent fake. News for a long time. Well, doing my best to try to articulate the correct story where we are as well as explaining that we are in favor of a safe border, and that is a sovereign nation. We need to control our borders, but that El Paso is a bible community contributing community, and as a close relationship by culturally and binationally families on both side commerce on both sides with Mexico. I mean, we have six bridges that that have twenty three thousand legal pedestrians coming north every day. I've got twenty one million private pasture vehicles that come north on an annual basis. Got eighty two billion dollars trade imports and exports that go through here. I mean, we're a major player, and we're we're very much intertwined with Mexico. And this is if you really wanna know the board you come Paso. All right may Dima go of El Paso. Thank you very much. Indeed for being with us. Hiring is challenging, but there's one place. You can go were hiring is simple fast. 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N for a free hair analysis and free haircare kid hair club dot com slash TBN. Experience your hair and your life at its best only with hair club. I'm certain you'll love the club. So with all this politicking real flesh and blood people who are affected on a daily basis. The most controversial Trump immigration policy has not been the wall. But as I mentioned the child separation deliberately removing migrant children from their parents who then detained a new inspector. General report reveals thousands more children with separated from their parents last year, then had previously been knowledge the department of health and human services had to house the children and testifying on Capitol Hill recently camman Jonathan white said that he believed the policy had catastrophic implications. So this problem is not over even after they unify the child with the family, right? The consequences of separation for many children will be lifelong. Let's be clear is there a nullification of retraumatize, or is this an additional trauma the adds additional stress and additional harm to child after they experienced the difficulties that they experienced in their home country going through the long trek. Did we add additional retraumatize ation to that child for many children that is able consequence? Yes. So within a dig down now into the humanity of that five, and of course, into the law around immigration, Ed La Kandara has reported extensively along the border and on child separations, and he's joining us from El Paso, and Mary Bauer is the deputy legal director for the southern poverty Law Center, which represents immigrants in detention and she travels often to the border, and she's joining us from Charlottesville Virginia. Welcome to you both. I just want to ask you Ed start off with some stories actually from both of you. But you're there in L posso. You just heard the mayor tell me what you've seen what you've reported on the human story. That's behind all these politics. I think the important thing to understand is just how fluid and how quickly things changed here on the border. So that the reason why some people might try to migrate into the United States in two thousand nineteen or two thousand eighteen is very different from what we saw maybe three or four years ago. And that has really been the challenge that we've seen here alone, the US southern border over the course of the last month where really we have seen the arrival of family units parents arriving with children, and that is a relatively new phenomenon that you're seeing here on the southern border, and because of that scene in there have been some lawmakers criticized the Trump administration for not adapting quick enough to dealing with the specific type of of people who were arriving here at the US southern border. So that's why it's led to this dramatic increase in children's separated from their parents. It was a plan that the administration as sensually. Admitted to over the course of the last few months that they hope two zero tolerance policy and separating children from their parents that would serve as a deterrent to migrants who are mostly coming from Central American countries to deter them from coming to the United States that simply hasn't been the case. And even though the administration said that that policy has been stopped. We heard the story over here, of course, last month and a half of a young girl who was separated from her father at the end of December in it took almost a month for that young girl to be reunited with her family. So these stories kind of really raised questions as to what extent these child separation cases are still unfolding. So maybe tend to you many by because you deal also with this from your legal perspective. But there's also say humanitarian perspective described the extent of what you're seeing in particular, the case of child separations, and as I said, a new inspector general report says that thousands more have been separated than than ever been. Acknowledged. So in other words, the problem is worse than we thought. It was. It absolutely is worse than we thought. It was. And what we see is that family separation. Never ended family separation has evolved family separation has taken slightly different forms, but kids and parents are separated every day. There are more than ten thousand kids who are detained now across the United States because of a deliberate Trump administration policy, and it's not as the previous the previous speaker indicated a failure to adapt. It is a deliberate and the various -ality where the administration decided that they were going to take actions that would result and kids being detained longer and in parents than sponsors being turned over to deportation. And and that's what we're seeing. We're seeing more than ten thousand kids locked up most of home who don't need to be locked up and just to just photo up on that now that we know more, and this has been a case of great contention and anger in the United States and. She around the world, are you able to to deal with these you able to highlight these cases is the law responding foster enough. I mean, can you get them reunited with with their families? What what is the situation on that level, Mary, but we we have brought a class action lawsuit on behalf of all kids who are detained across the United States. But we know that any child who is locked up and separated from family is experiencing trauma. We know that we know that these kids are going to experience long-term trauma because they are separated from their parents. And so we're working to reunite them just as quickly as possible. But this does not have to be. This is the result of calculated deliberate intentional acts to separate children from their parents and to use the children essentially as bait to lure their parents into the deportation system. And that's what we're seeing play out. I'm going to get back to the legal remedies to this. But I just wanna photo out with Ed on. You know that you're seeing everyday these stories and you've been seeing them to on a regular basis you've been reporting on them. Just give me a sense of what you see the kids the families how they're being affected the traumas. I think a lot of people who arrive at our spent a lot of time in shelters on the Mexican side of the border. These families who have made the long journey of from Central American country homes and to get there and many times when I speak to them. They're kind of they seem a blitz not aware as to the extent of how much this is being debated here in the United States, the amount of misinformation that they're giving in their home countries, and essentially lured by criminal criminal organized gangs that bring them through Central America in into Mexico and try to get into the United States is huge business for a lot of these smugglers that get them here to the doorstep of the United States and then essentially wash their hands of them. And then it becomes a dangerous situation for them. So you see a lot of a lot of confusion and by and large. I can't. I can't I've spoken to hundreds dozens of these people over the course of reporting here on the US southern border for for years and all of them to to to teed repeatedly tell you. They they come here simply looking for some sort of better opportunity, and in the case recently of the Central American migrants, many of them trying to escape violence. They've been directly threatened by gangs in their hometowns. And they feel like the only course of action that they have is to drop everything and run north marry from a legal point of view and the perspective on the big picture. The president is often going to the border going to El Paso as we've been highlighting this evening and talking about the rapists, and the criminals and the murderers, and and the gangs, thirteen etc. Sort of invoking young men bid Leitch men, I'd lessons first and foremost who are the majority of people coming over all they that demographic. And where a most of the. Illegals sort of base they come in through the border or the southern border from the I mean, where is the center of gravity on this issue? Yeah. They're not the people that Donald Trump describes they're not, rapists and murderers. The the people who are fleeing to the United States. Now that we are seeing the border are desperate people who are terrified and who are fleeing violence. They're coming to the United States, in many cases, they would like to apply for asylum. They would like to present a port of entry, and they cannot because of administration policies we see that in terms of the numbers of undocumented people, the majority of undocumented people in the United States now are actually coming in through airports there people who are overstaying visas, so all of the rhetoric from Trump about who immigrants are and why they're coming and what they're seeking. It's just wrong. It's just a monstrously wrong. And we know that we know about immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes than US citizens. We know all of that. Well, yes. And we bay to a rogue said that we heard the mayor of El Paso, Texas talk about his own. You know, practically crime-free location there in L Paso. But can you just separate for us? This what appears to be consistent conflicten of the issues as legal than as illegal as asylum-seekers merry. Just tell us who each group is. And how each needs to be dealt with. Well, I think we have to I that that Trump's rhetoric about how he wants people to do things legally is also demonstrably wrong, right? Because he's not allowing people to apply at the ports of entry. He is putting up huge obstacles to allow people who have the legal right to apply for asylum to be able to do that. He has taken a basically a million people who are here and documented and tried to make them legal by trying to terminate DACA TPS, he has undergone policy after policy after policy that is designed to attack people who are here both lawfully and unlawfully and to attack the system of immigration and the Silom at its roots to make that unavailable to people. So we know that that rhetoric about how people need to stand in line or how they need to do it legally that is belied by the actions of administration this administration. They don't want. People to do that. They don't want immigrants at all. They have made that clear through their policies. Yes. We need to have an immigration reform that deals with the eleven million or so people who are here in the United States out of status. We need to have that kind of reform. We have needed that for well over a decade or two, but that doesn't mean that we put up a wall and deny the ability to apply to asylum to people who are desperate and on our doorstep. We enacted the asylum law in the wake of World War, Two, exactly. So that this would not happen again because the west was ashamed that it had turned away Jews during the holocaust. And we said never again, we don't want to turn our back on desperate terrified people at our doorstep. We don't want to do that. Again. That's why we have asylum laws in the first place, and we are shamefully shamefully of wading, our moral, and legal responsibility. Here will let me ask you to expand on that. Because again, you see standing right there. You see it? You report. On the people, and there's this policy that the president implemented coal, metering which limits, the number of Silom seekers who are allowed to enter the United States each day, and they are held in detention centers or centers on the other side of the border. Meaning that they have to wait for months and months before their claims of process. What is that doing the border? The president claims a crisis at the border is this part of the crisis. I mean, is it manufacturing crisis? If you like. Mary brings up important point here, and you guys are hitting on. And that's really the newest angle of what we're seeing in our reporting along the southern border. So right now, you mentioned this metering system. So that people understand what it's like. So imagine a group of five hundred seen very large group showing up in various sections of the US other border. So it's not uncommon to see a group of two hundred three hundred migrants show up in a border town in a remote area. Let's say, and then they come to what is for example. And they're the port of entry the US might have a system in place. I think varies between Puerto venture you're coming into. But they say today we're going to take fifteen asylum seekers the next day. They might take twelve the day before they might take nine. So obviously got everybody being let in and that's forcing people to wait on the Mexican side of the border. And the Trump administration is also flirting with the idea. And I think there's a program that's been initially put in place in Tijuana, Mexico. On the Puerto with California where essentially forcing family units to start waiting out there Silom claims on the Mexican side of the border. And I think there's some talk of expanding that program throughout various points of the southern border. And this to critics of the administration has been a what they see as very detrimental issue that will continue to put these families in these children in harm's way. You're essentially asking people who are coming here and asking for something that is a legal process requesting asylum, and then forcing them to wait in these communities along the southern border where they're much more. Much more dangerous situations being taken advantage vantage of threatened, and that sort of thing and that is the concern for a lot of organizations that are trying to help these migrants arriving here in these border regions. Can I just ask you marry all if either of you know, there have been reports recently of these two kids who died in one of these centers in Mexico is this is this factually, correct? You know, how that happened? Are you worried about this happening mole, it is factually, correct? We know that three children were kidnapped in Tijuana. They had been staying at a youth shelter because they were not able to apply for asylum and come to the United States as they wanted to do two of them were murdered one of them was allowed to escape and to bring back a message. Basically that that children are in danger and children are in danger. Parents aren't danger families are in danger. This is a dangerous way to conduct a policy. This means that people are trapped in border cities where abusers and gangs. And the folks that people are fleeing no people are trapped, and so people are in grave danger people have died because of this policy more people will die unless this policy is changed. We know that that is on our hands on this side of the let me just play another little clip from from from come onto the commodity who we heard Jonathan white from h h s we heard in the lead in Tokyo about the troll for the kids. He's also told the house that this policy of housing separated children he had to enforce it. But he never would have supported this policy himself. Just just listen to this. The concerns which I expressed were to I that this would be inconsistent with our legal requirement to act in the best interest of the child, and would expose children to unnecessary risk of harm second that it would exceed the capacity of the program. Issues of bed capacity are very important or are because it constitutes our ability to provide a safe and appropriate environment to every child. We've only got thirty seconds of Ed legendary and your reporting have you heard similar misgivings from officials who have to enforce some of this policy. To me. That was the first time. I've heard. People in an official capacity say that that was that's what made that statement there in that congressional setting. I think so striking. And Mary do also find it extraordinary o of you heard it before. No. That was that was the first time. I had heard that that is the congressional statement of intent for in the creation of art. They are supposed to be acting in the best interests of children. And what we see is that that has not been happening. In fact, just the opposite has been happening. Mary Bauer at eleven Dera. Thank you so much for joining me this evening, and now we dig into America's complicated relationship with data and surveillance. Michael Chertoff was President George W Bush's homeland security secretary. But before that he made a name for himself co-authoring, the USA Patriot Act in the wake of the nine eleven attacks, the famously and massively expanded government surveillance. It allowed the indefinite detention of immigrants something which the supreme court later struck down. Now church off is discussing the growing threats to privacy. And he sat down with a hurry street of us. And yes, they did also touch on that border wall. Let's start with some things that are in the news now, and then kind of abstract up, I immigration, you were the second head of homeland security served under President Bush, how important is physical barrier. That's at the center of all this. It's a very small piece of what you want when we were in office. We built about six hundred and fifty miles of barriers along certain areas where distance between the border, and let's say it made your town or highly who's very short, and therefore you wouldn't be able to intercept people if they cross the border, you could probably build another fifty or so miles and find some useful places for it. But it's only very small part of what you want where you really need is technology border patrol personnel detention facilities for people who are going to be deported, and it has to be integrated into a system. So the idea that you want a wall. Is a mischaracterization of what their real requirement is is a worth and the government over could down over it certainly not worth shutting the government over. And and that since the disappointing thing is that if you actually got the professionals together, they could map out pretty clearly given what they know exactly where you want physical barriers where you want technology where you want drones, and that would be an intelligent way to spend the money ironically, when there's complaining about drugs coming into the country, the vast majority of that comes through the ports of entry. So if you had a quick -ment at the ports of entry that would allow you better visibility into what is concealed in an automobile or truck that would you much more to reduce the importation of drugs than barriers in the middle of the desert barriers really discourage a certain kind of casual crosser. It doesn't discourage someone who's investing large amounts of money to move very valuable drugs, and they have they won volume and they're going to basically try to use existing transportation systems to come through ports of entry. Is it a national emergency? I wouldn't say to national emergency. I mean, obviously border control important federal objective. But actually the rate of crossing fluctuated over time has generally gone down. What's really driving? It now is largely conditions in parts of Central America where you have not only economic issues, but you have gang violence, you have lack of rule of law and people are fleeing because they're afraid for their lives. The best way to stop that is to work with Central American governments to reinstitute the rule of law to build the economy, and then people will be happy to stay in their homes. Another topic. That's been in the news recently. The department of Justice just laid out indictments against the Chinese telecom company, and the United States has also been trying to pressure or leverage countries around the world to not use equipment from this telecom company as basically the world upgrades to five G. What is it about? Why's it important visited actually not new the issue of Chinese technology as potentially creating an opportunity for the China used to commit acts of espionage, or even acts of sabotage has been discussed among security people for the last ten years, or so what we saw just earlier this year was an indictment of wow way for stealing technological secrets from T mobile. That's happened in the past continue to happen. But beyond that, I think there's a concern that you are potentially putting the next generation of critical technology in the hands of a country, which may be an adversary in certain respects. And I'm chairman of the board of freedom as we published a report a couple of months ago freedom on the net. And in the report, we have Chinese are using the exports of IT technology to embed themselves around the world in Asia and Africa, and they're actually teaching some of the local governments there how to use technology to better control the populace and to suppress free speech. So we're in a situation now where if you have Chinese companies that are in critical nodes around the world, you're essentially, perhaps enabling the export of -tarian ISM two parts of the world that are. So how does the west counter that? I mean is there a way that you can get the world to agree on the rules of the road? Why I do think there are things we can do even using Multistakeholder approach underway right now. For example. I think many of the western countries have more or less common set of values. And could reasonably easily reach agreements on some of the things we're talking about. And because of the fact that these countries are still collectively by far the most powerful economic actors on the globe in the end, if we do have agreed set of values and agreed approach I think that can drive the Chinese to accommodate to that as well. And I'm on a global commission for stability cyberspace now, which is drawn people from all over the world who are focused on cyber issues to try to come up with some norms that could be globally accepted to have an opening to net a free internet and an engineer that is not fragmented, but rather is truly global in its activity. You put out a book recently talking about the data explosion. And you have kind of a simple idea in their data one point two point. Oh, three point. Oh break that down for audience. I wrote the book because I thought people didn't really understand that matter which data is being. Elected and how it is being used now and how it can be had it. It will transform the way we live. So I look back historically if you look at most of human history that it was basically what you said what you heard what was written down. Maybe what was published and we were mainly concerned about protecting our privacy in the sense of our property. It was the expression, you know, every man's home castle. I know it's an acronym. But it goes back a few hundred years and the idea was your privacy is about your property. No one can enter your house without a warrant when you got photography and telephony all of a sudden property was not the issue anymore. It was confidentiality. Could I keep my conversations private credit keep my image private? And if the loss started change to recognize we have to move away from focus on property. And now we have to focus on confidentiality. My point now is given the amount of data that is being Geno. Not only what we voluntarily generate. But what is generated about us? And the fact that it is now stored indefinitely. It can be published all over the world simply trying to keep things hidden or secret that ship has sailed. Now, we talk about who controls the data. What is your right? Even when you data is collected to be able to say, yes or no to how it's being used. So really positioning it as a townie exactly it's about freedom and going back to China and China, they're now working on what they call the social Credit's where everything that you do would be compiled, and you essentially get a rating to whether you're a quote, good citizen or abets it. And if you're good, you get preference in all kinds of things like jobs and education. And if not you could be shut out of things now imagine that in a western society and might even be the private sector where you're -bility to get a job or get insurance or find a place to live. Live would be affected by whether an algorithm looks at everything you do that's recorded in some form or fashion as data and makes judgment about whether you're desirable or undesirable purse. Isn't that starting to happen? All ready if a health insurer had access to my grocery shopping list, they could change my rates. He's being really healthy. And maybe input equals output and looks like he's got a gym membership. He's been logging in five times a week. Okay. Oh, you know, he's not gonna die right away versus bags M's. Lots of Netflix binging. I don't know. And that's happening. Now, I mean, even in the time since I published a book about six months ago. And now there are more stories about insurance companies saying we wanna see your fit bit. How much exercise you're getting? And they're also looking at things like exactly what mood you eat go to a restaurant. What did you get at the restaurant? How is your sleep pattern? Imagine all of this being. Collected and pretty soon your freedom to decide what you wanna do would always be subject to a nagging fear that you're going to be punished. There was a BBC show black mirror that on that actually took this. I'd like you say to an extreme. But not that extreme about a world in which literally everybody is being raided up and down minute by minute. And at it makes nineteen Eighty-four George Orwell's just Topi novel. Look like like a kindergarten dream someone's gonna watch this conversation say this is the guy who helped write the Patriot Act at the time you were not in that data climate that we're in today. Right. There wasn't Amazon nearly as powerful and all knowing that is what is the balance between giving the government the opportunity to chase down bad guys get as much information, prevent attack cetera, and that sense of Tani that you're talking about where I still feel like. I have some level of control over what I choose to share with especially the body governing me we we're right to be concerned about the government is rouse, the private sector. What's interesting is that the government operates under much more constraint than the private sector? The government doesn't even dream of collecting the vibe move information that is collected in the private sector and before the government uses it, they're all kinds of gates. They have to go through at least in the United States and other countries may are obviously different. So for example, to collect content of information that's being emailed or being discussed over telephone. You need a warrant. And now, there's a move afoot. I think correctly to require a warrant even for older emails and not just for current emails to use the information, you have to various kinds of hoops to get permission. So I do think that the government over you can always argue about what the borders were to be does operate. To resume where they are controlled been so many examples where even if those permission systems have existed there's been such a lack of transparency that it shakes are foundational trust in the government saying, hey, if the NSA has this program, whether they were authorized to do it or not it seems pretty shady, and it's just one more thing I have to worry about. Well, I agree with you. I mean, transparency would be important and and one of the mistakes the government made was for a period of time. For example, the court opinions of the court that supervisors surveillance where kept classified after Snowden did his release of qualified information. If the government started the fire, the pinions, I think what was put out a was not particularly damaging to national security, but for the first time people could see wow, judges are really digging into this. And they could see the reasoning of the court. And frankly, I think the government would have been better serve. Served had they put that out before any of this node in business happened in. So I agree. I think a lesson for the government is there is a cost involved in secrecy. And you always have to ask yourself is this secrecy really necessary. Or would we actually get more value by at least? Generalized way making public what we're doing with the rules are at core question here is the fourth amendment, right? What is unreasonable search and seizure in this new era that we're going into is my heart rate information, and my sleep habits sitting in the servers of third party? Do I have control of that information, and who should be able to transact that I think that's exactly the issue? We're facing. Now, we're creating show many different kinds of data. We need to understand who governs it. And what are the rules that apply to the issue of access, and that's ready beginning to change an example years ago, many years ago, adopt one of border searches was promulgated by this court when you cross the US border and come into the US, the border officials are able to search anything you're carrying with you because you have a limit to what you can import into the US. And that was applied to laptops, and other repositories of data because you bring it into the country. Now, very recently. The issue is original what do you do for a smartphone, which is connected to the cloud? So if you are able to open up the phone in church phone, you're not only getting which on the phone. It's being brought into the country. You're getting what may already be sitting in Amazon servers somewhere in the United States? It would be as if I searched you when you came into the country took your house key. And then went your house. Search your ass. I think the rule has to be different there. And the supreme court has already begun to signal that they're revisiting the rules, for example, about searches to take account of the sheer volume of material that is now available out of phone or laptop wanna ask also about upcoming elections are on there's kind of two levels. Our state systems in the United States secure enough to division is that there's the infrastructure that is the voting machines voter registration rolls of the tabulation. I think it's very uneven congress trying to get more money to states. The department of homeland security is working with some of the states to upgrade their she cured of the infrastructure. And there are some things that I've been involved with the commission on election integrity, where we're trying to promote that the larger issue is what they call information Parisian's. It's the use by foreign governments like the Russians or even frankly by people in our own country of tools that are designed to manipulate public opinion and create disunity and even suppressed voting by propagating false stories or magnifying exaggerating. Disturbing stories all in order to play with with emotions. There are. Are something you can do to mitigate that, particularly when you have a foreign government involved. But again, some of this is going to require the hard work of educating people about how to be critical thinkers, and this is about to get more challenging because we're now on the verge of what they call deep fakes which is the ability to create audio and video completely fabricated. But that makes it seem like a real person is saying something, and if that starts to get used against candidates, for example, you're going to really have stress on the notion of determine what the truth is what happens to our profession. A big piece of this is actually going to put an ownersh on journalism. How do you measure and detect whether something is false? How do you make sure you don't get caught up in the agenda the competition for clicks, which actually drives the behavior that you're trying to fight against and reinjecting an element of professionalism and judgment. In way at a tour of decisions are made. I think is a really important part of preserving our democracy. Michael chertoff? Thanks so much to be on. An important challenge ahead now before we go remember to tune in tomorrow when we'll have a special program on what? Consensus called humanities biggest trial that is climate change. I'll speak with the Washington. Governor Jay Inslee. He's making climate the center of possible presidential campaign and to the photographer James bailed, who's devoted his life to capturing us or some power, and he's got a new filled the human element, and that's all tomorrow on the program. In the meantime, remember, you can always this into a podcast and see us online. I'm on dot com. You can follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching. And goodbye from London. Hey, Sekou humidity from the hang time podcast. Join me, and my main man, John humid every week as we break down, the latest, NBA, news and storylines with. Yes. From around the league, we should've subscribe to NBA hang time on apple podcasts by an NBA dot com slash podcast for new episodes every Monday and Thursday. Seats.

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Amanpour: Brett McGurk, Rashad Robinson and Reniqua Allen

Amanpour

58:13 min | 2 years ago

Amanpour: Brett McGurk, Rashad Robinson and Reniqua Allen

"Tired of spending hundreds of dollars prescription glasses. Xeni offers thousands of affordable eyewear styles starting at just six ninety five visits any today at Zanny dot com slash CNN. Hello, everyone and welcome to almond for. Here's what's coming up. Unacceptable and a non starter. That's Democrats on President Trump's idea of compromise to end the government shutdown and amid the president's controversial plan to withdraw troops from Syria. Former envoy Brett mcgurk says Trump's new policy will give ice is a new lease on life. Then a Martin Luther King day, the president of color for change. Rashad Robinson tells a hurry suite of us and how the internet can help achieve racial equality and Justice, plus the journalist and writer Renisha Allen tells me why the American dream is dead at least for black millennials. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour in London as the longest US government shutdown in history enters its fifth week now. Hundreds of thousands of federal employees remain without work and pay including nearly a quarter of a million veterans who worked for the government one union says the former service personnel are among the hardest hit by this furlough. So morale-sapping news at home and also abroad in the field after four Americans were killed in a suicide blast in Syria last week at the very time. The president is rallying to withdraw all US troops from the country. The decision sparked several high profile resignations from his administration. I there was the Defense Secretary James Mattis, then Brett mcgurk who was the presidential envoy for the global coalition to defeat. Isis mcgurk work had spanned three administrations. And now he's written an op-ed. Trump said he beat ISIS. Instead, he's giving it new life. I've been speaking to Brett mcgurk who tells me the president Syria policy is a total Vercel of everything the administration had been trying to achieve and worse that it strips the United States have any leverage with its partners and adversaries. Brett mcgurk. Welcome back to our program. Christiane? Thanks so much for having me. So we talked to a lot over the years when you were all sorts of different iterations of envoy presidential envoy, basically ISIS point man over the dos. Many many years, you have resigned, it was very public letter and public moment. But I want to ask you first, the consequences of the US pull out, and we hear today that the Turkish president has decided and has offered to be, you know, the security force for man bitch that famous town in northern Syria. What what does that mean is that a good thing should the US be happy that the Turks are gonna take over when we formed the coalition really in late summer early. Fall of two thousand fourteen we started with twelve countries it's grown to seventy five countries. American leadership was really critical to that. And of course, was a was a key partner in this. And in our our initia-. Plan plan A if you want to say that. Was to work with Turkey to get a handle on this problem. And I probably spend most of my time in the first year of my job, including when I was working with general Allen. Most of our time was spent inaugura because most of the material coming to to fuel the ISIS war machine. Frankly was coming across the border from Turkey into Syria. So we we clearly identified that one of the things we wanted to do was to work with the Turks NATO ally to control their border, and quite frankly, it was very frustrating because Turkey did not take much action on the border. So we have worked very hard with Turkey on in various ways and nothing's really worked out. And there's a number of reasons for that, quite frankly, I think our interest in Syria in fundamental ways really diverge, and when when president Erawan puts on the table proposals. That might look look good in concept. Every time we send our best people or best planners to really dig into. What can actually we do together? It never really pans out. I'll just give you an example. The opposition groups that Turkey supports that it would send for example into a safe zone. Are simply not groups that the United States of really work with. I mean, they are very closely tied with tied with with with extremist groups, and if you just run if you just look at the northern tier of Syria and just run across what is now that the Turkey border in it live province that's an area that we don't outbreak in. It is a really Inari influence for Turkey. It is really dominated now entirely by groups with ties to al-qaeda all the border crossings with Turkey are controlled by kite, very serious problems. Very serious problem. I it is I sort of see what you're saying. I'm you saying that that is not the solution to replace US troops who are leaving. So let me wind back a little bit this tape to when you first heard that the president was going to be removing US troops from Syria after all the hard won gains that you describe. Well, I. We knew that the prisoner to want to speak with President Trump and president Erdo wine was sabre-rattling about sending the Turkish backed opposition forces and Turkish military forces into areas of Turkey where US forces are operating, and we've been dealing with this for a couple of months or message to Turkey was just but do not send your military forces in because that's going to create a very serious situation. And frankly, put American lives at risk. So that was the policy when president it'll on called President Trump. This was really upended. Instead, President Trump did not say that. And he basically said look we plan to leave Syria fairly soon, and then basically a green light. So that just totally reversed everything we have been doing for a very long time. I was in Iraq working with the new Iraqi government on on making sure we sustain the very significant gains against ISIS when I was informed of the call. I had a phone call with. -tary Pompeo, and I came home to Washington to try to manage the fallout from this and immediately got on the phone with my coalition partners in capitals around the world and tried to explain what was happening, and it was just a total reversal of what we had been telling them for a number of months, and you did resign to be fair. You we're going to plan to leave mid February. But you brought that up to the end of December. And in your letter to your colleagues, you said the recent decision by the president came as a shock and was a complete reversal of policy that was articulated to us it left, our coalition partners confused, and I'll fighting partners bewildered you've expanded a little bit about that. But when you say, what was your foot, what came out of your mouth? What what was the first thing? You said when you got the call that this was going to happen. Well, there were two Eissa look at at one was okay. The president has asked us to leave Syria. Let's try to figure out a way to orchestrate this in a way that can still achieve all of our objectives. Syria, and all of our objectives and Syrian clued. And again, this these are the instructions from from the White House. So this is not a policy is just cooked up in the State Department our policy in Syria articulated by the White House national Security, John Bolton and others was that we would stay in Syria until number one the enduring defeat of ISIS that was the primary mission that was my mission. Number two will stay in Syria until all Ronnie's are out of Syria, whether or not that was real realistic. That was the stated policy or ticketed again from the White House and number three. We'd stay in Syria. And there was a euro versatile mental was the phraseology to the UN back political process in Geneva, which dealt with the Assad regime in the civil war. I frankly believe that if we are leaving serious, the president has now very clearly instructed, those objectives simply are totally unachievable. Another thing that really concerned me Christiane is that asking a military force to withdraw under pressure or from a combat environment. As one of the most difficult things you can ask a military force to do. So if the orders are, and these are the orders from the president to withdraw that has to be the mission, the mission cannot be withdraw and do a number of other things complete ISIS campaign, which of course, we want to do keep the Russians and the regime out of the territory, we continue we now influence try to do some sort of engineering to allow Turkey to come in to replace us in a number of other things that's impossible to ask the few Americans on the ground to do. So is really mission impossible. Well, I mean, it just does sound absolutely awful. And I wanted before I get into most Pacifics about the particular fallout that you would just referring to how does it make you feel? I mean as a person as the ISIS point man now seeing four Americans killed this past week in the days after President Trump made his announcement. Where look anyone who works on these issues where professional worked across three administrations. Republicans and Democrats I've worked on policies I fully supported I worked on policies. I might have thought of been. Unwise, but you always your voices at the table, and you try to influence things based upon the facts and the analysis, and and you do the best you can so in Syria, for example, we are not doing the fighting on the ground for over three years in this campaign until just last week. Two Americans had been killed in action. And then tragically last week. We lost four additional Americans that pales in comparison to the democratic forces that have lost thousands of casualties in this campaign. American taxpayers are not spending money on civilian reconstruction. And other types of those tests as coming from the coalition that we built so it is a very sustainable low cost high impact mission of mission. Let me interrupt you the kind of mission presumably, the President Trump would love you just out of the magic woods low cost the people of paying the bulk of the money that it takes his you've just described begun to to help design a campaign plan that was succeeding, and it was reaching a really critical. As and we were talking about the longer term transition and to have it all ended in a phone call with a foreign leader without any serious consultation with the national security team with sector defense and others. That's just not the way to run foreign policy effectively. So this was a complete reversal. And I'm concerned about the the fallout one can say that the president has a fairly unusual relationship with Russian President Putin. And maybe he doesn't castle much if the Russians fill the void that US is leaving. But he doesn't have a cozy relationship with the Iranians. And you just said one of the principal aims was to degrade Iranian influence as much as possible. And the stated aim of the White House was to stay until Iran was no longer a viable player that, but you're on staying not only that the president himself said Iran can have it. You know, we don't want it. It's just sand and death. I don't understand that policy. Do Booker, Sean. You hit on a good point. And this is there's a bit of, you know, I'll be careful with my words, but there's a there's a bit of incoherence between the views of the president and the views of some of the most senior members of the national security team, particularly in the White House the views of the president. Clearly, he's been very consistent. He does not want to be overly invested in the Middle East, particularly with with the US military power, the views of the national security visor seem to be quite different. And so that is a divergence that makes our foreign policy. There's lens element of incoherence to it that we hear about this from partners all around the world. And and that's something that ultimately, I think they're going to have to address it still really weird because everything the president has done speaks to wanting to isolate Iran where the pulling out of the Iran nuclear deal with a being so cozy with Saudi Arabia despite everything including the kashogi Moda just because they partly see it as a bull walk against Iran. And then to say that it can. Have if it wants we don't want Syria. It's just sand and death. But you just mentioned being presidential envoy Europe presidential envoy for President Trump. Did you have a meet him? Well, every ministrations different. So with President Bush in the White House. If I if I was overseas every morning we were in the Oval Office, President Obama a very regular exchanges. President Trump just runs the operation differently. So most of my most of my interactions than Trump administration's were at the sector defense, the secretary of state and our military commanders. I was obviously involved in every major decision of the ISIS campaign, but turns of direct interactions with President Trump pretty much interacts with his cabinet secretaries. No, basically, the president did not meet the presidential envoy to Syria. Yeah. That's right. All you concerned as one writer has said senior fellow at Brookings. The advent of a more unified and predictable US foreign policy is likely to weaken American influence and destabilize the international order a deeply divided. Trump administration was the best case for those who believe in the United States postal strategy defined by strong alliances, an open global economy and broad support for democracy. The rule of law human rights, all the rest of it. Again. Just go back to my earlier point. There is a there is a disconnect and just my own personal experience instructions from the White House from very senior levels of the White House to tell our partners are allies, the Russians or adversaries that we are staying in Syria until these very these these objectives are met, for example, until Ron is leaving Syria that those are instructions that we were carrying from the White House and that was completely reversed by the president. Therefore, I think we have to be. Very realistic about the situation in Syria and number one. I think we have to be realistic that President Assad is staying in place this objective that somehow we were going to work through UN process to to remove sharla Saad, I think at this point is unrealistic. And if we if we continue to reach for unrealistic objectives US credibility will continue to be further diminished in other words side wins. And he gets it back. He wins, and he gets pretty much all of Syria back. Well, that's the consequence of our of our leaving Syria and announcing to the world, we're leaving Syria. You know, Christiane I also did a lot of negotiations with the Russians on Syria. So I kind of understand exactly where they come from those negotiations are very tough. What gave us leverage at the table. Was the fact that we are present on the ground, and that we have influence over significant portion of Syria, and we actually drew lines on the map to make clear the Russians you do not cross this line, or you're going to have a very bad day that gives you that gives you leverage with the Russians and we getting to the point where with the defeat. Physical caliphate. We'd be able to sit down with the Russians, but very serious conversation about the future of Syria announcing to the world that we were just leaving basically all of that leverage completely evaporates and just not to put too fine. A point on it. The main reason that you stated at the beginning for the US presence and the US campaign and the coalition campaign was to defeat ISIS and the president described ISIS as defeated that's a quote, an absolutely obliterated in terms of territory. But of course, you know, many reports released late last year, including the Pentagon inspector general, the UN's and strategic, and it's national studies estimates that ISIS has twenty to thirty thousand members in Iraq and Syria is era is ISIS defeated can the president leave Syria knowing that they'll be no more threat from ISIS. Crescendo? Look, it's a great question. And in early December secretary, Madison I met with all the military contributors of our coalition, including many countries they've been attacked from ISIS out of. Syria, and the unanimous view was that is not defeated. This mission is not over. I do not think there would be a single expert. They would walk in the Oval Office until the president that this is over. And that is why we always said that the mission was the enduring defeat devices not just taking physical caliphate. But getting the arrangements in place to ensure that vacuum out open in its wake. And that's why we were setting up the conditions that have this very serious intense negotiations with the Russians which I think was setting up in a pretty good spot. Until again, we we we throw away all of our leverage by announcing we're leaving on. There's also very serious risk to Iraq. This is of course, one third of Syria in which thousands of foreign fighters and suicide bombers poured from Syria into Iraq that we are. Now, a announcing to the world that we are going to leave without having any plan for who is going to take our place. So again, I think the consequences are quite serious. That's why I would recommend to the president to halt these orders reassess the situation but short of that. Think we just have to face very hard reality. I mean, you couldn't make it up. Really it just does sound very perplexing. Indeed. For all the reasons that you state, can I ask you to give me your personal analysis opinion of what role secretary Mattis played? And I don't just mean as a foam Kamanda a secretary of defense. But a somebody who it has to be said the rest of the world look to as a salutary influence on a president who is not versed in military affairs, or foreign affairs secretary Mattis is one of our greatest Americans, I the honor to work very closely with him over these last two years, but also many times previously really over the last decade combat veteran spent a lot of time in war-zones that is actually very important experience. You wanna have people have actually know what it's like on the ground. What this is like, no we're talking about. So his voice in the room was just a critical. Kind of stabilizing factor as the national security team deliberated and made decisions when President Trump came in. You know, we did we did a strategic review of the Conroy campaign. And we looked at elements in which we could exceleron the campaign, and we put a number of decisions to the president and the president made those decisions and those were good decisions. That was a that was a strategic review that was really run by my office together with secretary Mattis in sector, Tillerson at the time. And I think it was actually done quite professionally and thoroughly and have you heard from America's allies in this, particularly the ones you've been talking to in the wake of this decision. There is concern about where this is heading. And I think particularly are our allies in Europe that were prime targets for ISIS, and you're the attacks and the attacks in Paris, one hundred thirty civilians dead in the streets of Paris, those attacks came directly from Syria, they were planned in Raka. They were organized in Maharaj, they terrace combat team out through Syria. To infiltrate into Paris of the same thing with the Brussels airport attack. So these are very serious threats emanating from Syria, and these countries and capitals, all of whom have put their blood and treasure on the line as part of our coalition under the umbrella of American leadership are extremely concerned about the decision that was just made. And the fact that again, we don't have a plan for what's coming. It's one thing to say, look, we should leave serious think of plants note that thing to announce we're leaving Syria, and then to try to think of the plan later, and that's what's going on now. And I think it is it's increasing the risk to our forces on the ground. It's increasing the risks to our partners who under threat from from ISIS. You know, you've laid it out very succinctly. And you've sort of touched on the fact that yes, of course, if we want to withdraw troops, but we should have a plan. Not do it vice versa. But what do you say to the American people to the president who ran on a promise of bringing back forces? These wars have been going on since. Two thousand and one after nine eleven, you know, the forever wars people in America fed up with them against the great question. That was those a drive that was it's obviously a driving influence within the Trump presidency and President Obama also, of course, had that view in that comes from the American people in the the experience of our country over the last decade that is why how ever we design the counter ISIS campaign to address that. And again, this this element of a very low cost very high impact campaign Americans are not fighting in the streets of Syrian Syrian cities and towns series are doing the fighting rocko, which was the capital ISIS through its under which all these threats were being these plots were these plots being hatched and launched ISIS was taken down by series without the loss of a single American life. So we designed this campaign actually to address that. And again, my head is spinning because I recall, very, very very very clearly so many in the national security. Of field and also Trump when he was running as campaigning with very very critical of President Obama precipitously pulling out of Iraq. And what did that lead to ISIS the rise of ISIS? And then what that lead to reinserting tens of thousands, if not more US troops. I mean, we've seen this movie before in the Middle East to two things presence matters and credibil- credibility matters. So an American handshake has to matter and your presence on the ground matters. And that does not mean again that we were planning or we should have planned to stay in Syria forever for twenty years. It does mean that we should have presence on the ground to help us in a negotiation with adversaries like Russia than our presence on the ground helps at the table and having been a diplomat at the table. You wanna have that on your back number one, the consistency of American foreign policy in the leadership behind you and presence on the ground. That is what it diplomat really needs to get things done. And we just pull the plug on that. It's really very perplexing with very very potentially dramatic consequences. Brett mcgurk former presidential envoy for Syria and ISIS. Thank you very much. Indeed. Thank you, Sean. Sean. You don't want not smart job boards that overwhelmed with tons of the wrong resumes. Luckily, there's a smarter way to hire at ZipRecruiter. Ziprecruiter's powerful matching technology finds the right people for you. And actively invites them to apply. It's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US this rating comes from hiring sites on trust pilot with over one thousand reviews and right now listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter dot com slash on poor. If you love this show show, your support to it ends up recruiter by going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash AM. A N P O you are tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Our friends at Xeni optical offer, a huge variety of high quality stylish frames and state of the art optics starting at just six ninety five. You can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home, eggs, any dot com. With the latest trends in eyewear available and hundreds of. Frame styles and materials there isn't a better way to change it up for every season. Plus Xeni offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit Xeni today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. That's Z E N. I dot com slash CNN. Remember to create an ad like this one visit pure winning dot com slash CNN. Turning to a day of reflection because America's mocking Martin Luther King day. But no public holiday for congress because of this continued shutdown, however, congress can claim an important markup for the first time in history African Americans hold the same proportion of congressional seats twelve percent as their proportion of the population at large and yet while more than half a century is passed since Martin Luther King spoke about his American dream today, racial inequality. Stubbornly persists in a moment. How it affects black Manelli millennials when we talked to the author Renita Allen, but I those fighting for racial Justice. Give us a reality. Check. Rashad Robinson is the president of the leading nonprofit color change. And he tells a hurry screen of awesome that we need to confront the calls. Instead of the symptom. For those familiar with the organs. Asian what is color of change? Do what's it's mission color of change in next generation, racial Justice organization, and we were founded after Kane, Katrina, and that moment where black people were literally on their roofs begging for the government to do something. And we're left to die and the feary behind the start of color of change was that the movement needed a new type of infrastructure to capture the energy and aspirations and demands of black folks in their allies if every race folks were giving to the Red Cross when they could be working for systemic change. How could we pay our technology and media and organizing together to build the type of momentum in power that did the thing that was really at the heart of Katrina where no one was nervous about disappointing black people government corporations and media. And so the idea behind color of change is how do we translate these wide Ray? Range of moments that are happening every single day, and our society and give people the ability to collectively take action, and then translate that action into strategic, cultural and political change. How do you do that? Is it public pressure is private pressure? It's a mix of both, you know, private pressure for us only really works. If there is this idea that public pressure as possible. And so sometimes we have to hold out the idea that public pressure is coming sometimes we can work behind the scenes to push our demands sometimes this about reward. Sometimes it's about a shame. But all of that is about creating a sense that those who are empower need to know that there are consequences for racism there consequences for behaviors that put our community imperil one of I remember guys coming on the field, so to speak even post Katrina was. When you were able to exert pressure on Glenn Beck and looking back now, I mean that was because of some of the comments that he was making the divisive rhetoric looking now, and that was two thousand nine and here we are nine years after and we have nine term members of congress who are just starting to face consequences for things that they've been saying that episode. Glenn Beck relatively speaking seems tain today in some ways, it does seem tame I do think. That some of this is is Evan flow. And I do think that while it's important in the media culture to think about rhetoric because media oftentimes about rhetoric when we look at what's happening in our congress with someone like Steve king. I think it's it's it's important that folks are calling out his rhetoric now though, I think more journalists to ask why now and why not just Steve king? But the larger question is not about folks in power and policymakers rhetoric, but actually their policy what are the impact of the policies that they are putting forth voting rights civil rights. Like, these are all things from criminal Justice immigration that Steve king had a say over he was able to implement and move racist policies policies that have deep impact on people's lives. And so I. Really hope that as we move this discussion forward than we talk about sort of the words that were able to not just kind of have outrage about those, but actually go much deeper and be more clear that it's the policies that have the real deep impact on people every single day. There's sometimes this conception that racism is a generational issue that it will die out over time that it will move towards equality. We have those images and Charlottesville, these young men that just maybe out of college or little after that. And with their faces in full Tiki torch light. You know? The voted ever since Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act in the Voting Rights Act. No democrat that needed black votes has gotten a majority of the white vote. We do live in a very deeply divided country along race. And I don't think we get around that by refusing to talk about it or thinking that it will just change overnight far too often people think about any quality as unfortunate almost like a car accident. And I don't just mean people who don't always agree with us on the issue. I mean, lots of people and so instead of seeing inequality as unjust. And when you see inequality is unfortunate, so many of the solutions that people think about our charitable solutions. Let's in water bottles to Flint and said of working to actually deal with the pipes. Let's clean up inner city school instead of dealing with public education making public education equal, let's deal with reentry. Sense versus versus the cause. And so part of the challenge that we've had over many decades we've worked to deal with a lot of symptoms and not a lot of causes and change has actually happened. And in in that sort of where we haven't done all of the work to bring people along at the same time. They're powerful forces in the White House on their powerful forces in the media, their powerful force in our culture that have a lot at stake at keeping the status quo in place at keeping the rules rigged and keeping us divided to in order to do that. And and for people of good faith who are watching this for people who are on the sidelines. The, you know, the fight to ensure that our democracy allows all of our voices to be counted is not just the fight for black people. Not just the. Fight for people of color the attacks that have happened. Via racism on our education system on our health system on our environment. The way that racism has been used as a wedge has hurt all of society and the question will be is keeping racist status quo policies in place. So been official to folks that people are willing to risk their own health their own environment their own education, and all the other things that have really the gun to fall apart because racism has been used as a wedge to break down the structures of our society. The ways that we ensure that Justice is actually served in our systems, one of yours focusing on social platforms. What are you asking of them? What's happening there like many institutions that grow very quickly? There have to be rules of the road. And as we started to deal with. Platforms like Facebook and watched how they dealt with low enforcement without any rules or regulations oftentimes, bypassing kind of warrants in civil rights law by providing information to to law enforcement, really violating the the pack that people thought they had about privacy with those platforms the way that algorithms could be used to violate the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act. Like you could put an ad on Facebook. That said I only wanna market this house to white people. And and the way that race was weaponized during the twenty sixteen election, really breaking down. A whole set of trust about how we think about our elections, and how we think about voting and democracy, while we have been engaged with Facebook really pushing them to do a civil rights audit and look at all their policies put into real structures about how they think about policies and practices. We found out via the New York Times that while they were telling us sort of really great things about what they were gonna be doing and talking to us about this audit and hiring the people to do it. They had hired a PR firm to attack us at the same time employing, this firm to sort of move these narrows about who was funding us, and that we didn't have our own ideas, which were deeply racists in this idea that black people don't control their own ideas of many of the ways that the student nonviolent coordinating committee, and Dr king, we're sort of tact in the sixties by saying that they were puppets of some larger. Entity as if they didn't have their own ideas for fighting for their for Justice, and one of the things that we really need from both. Our regulators members of congress those that invest in Facebook is to hold the largest communications platform that the world has ever seen one of the largest corporations out there accountable for basic practices around privacy around data sharing around civil rights, and that is going to be incredibly important because they have so much access to so much of our information. There was a now famous litter from a former employee of theirs Mark lucky as he left the company. He had great statistics on how much more engaged African Americans are on Facebook all the metrics Facebook wishes that had about other communities as well. But that it was also not a positive experience for so many of them. Because when they would post something either the algorithm or other people were able to essentially create ways for that content to be censored. Well, I mean, that's one of the things that we've seen in. And it's not just that. It's organizations having their content blocked. You know? You know? Many kind of forces inside of Facebook conservative force inside of Facebook have put this idea of conservative bias at the same level as civil rights. We oftentimes talk about is there's left in there's right. And there's right and there's wrong, and so civil rights somehow a left issue now. And so Facebook will do a training for their folks that are monitoring around the election monitoring the platform around the election and the same day, they do a training on voter suppression. They did a training on voter fraud. Which is basically this. Donald Trump conspiracy theory on that's been advanced by the right? It's like why don't you do training on is the world flat? And the and the idea that they they've put the politicized civil rights to such a point where ad for a pride parade in a pride celebration becomes a political ad and not just like an ad for people coming together is an example of many of the ways that Facebook has to sort of recognize and all these platforms have to recognize that they've gotta have a moral Rutter one of the big or challenges that they've had. And this is really a challenge that they're trying to fight because of what's happening in Europe is that these companies are trying to avoid any type of regulation all cost. These companies will have to think very clearly about how they engage in his upcoming twenty twenty election back in twenty sixteen. We've. Forced many companies to divest from the RNC convention because of the rhetoric of Donald Trump in the lead up to the election all of the platforms, like Google and Facebook, and we got on the phone with them and urged him to divest from the RNC convention. They told us that they were media platforms that they had to be at both conventions for both sides. Now, we've seen Mark Zuckerberg go to congress and say that they're not a media platform. So now what will their excuse be for enabling racism? There's also the power of traditional media. Whether it's the news industry or really the entertainment industry. There's a relatively small group of people in Hollywood create and manufacture the perception of how life is or how life should be. So how does an organization like yours tackle that? We really think a lot about this. We a couple of years ago opened an office in Hollywood and put real energy behind focusing on these images with the larger. Idea that we do have to change culture culture, oftentimes precedes policy shift, and and one of the couple of things that we really focus on we've worked with UCLA USC on a number of reports to really look at both diversity and writers rooms, the writers rooms that create this shows and look at how these shows are created who's in the room who's writing the stories that reach America and as a result. What what are we missing as a result and seeing? A whole set of challenges in terms of access that black folks if people of color and women have had to being able to create and write Intel authentic stories, they're going to reach folks, we're releasing a report that looks at crime on TV and all the crime shows, and how they not only portray black people on those shows, but how they portray a criminal Justice system that is deeply unfair that we've had folks on the left and the right say is deeply unfair. But our Justice system is oftentimes portrayed on TV is just a set of individuals moving forward the law that the heroes are the folks working inside the system everyone on the outside is a criminal. You see oftentimes these cases that start with the crime, and in with a verdict within an hour when people when what we really know is that people are oftentimes lacking behind bars for months and months and years and years way. Waiting trials. And oftentimes they're not because they are guilty. But because they are poor because they are black because they're not powerful. Here. We are more than fifty years after the I have a dream speech, and you talk about civil rights, and you talk about voter rights where are we in that longer arc of not even achieving the dream? But in the process toward it. You know, I think that we're in a deep struggle right now. I I look at many of the rollbacks on many of the ways that voting rights were under attack doing this past election in places like Georgia, and Florida and elsewhere, I think about the work that we have to do to not just be on the defensive so much of the work in previous decades was about defending and protecting the things that were one doing the sixties and as a next generation racial Justice organization. I really do believe that so much of our work. Has to be about what what are the next generation campaigns the next generation policies that we are putting forth that will allow us to move forward in a more multiracial, democracy, more multiracial society. And so not just thinking about how do we protect things like the Voting Rights Act, but what is the new Voting Rights Act? What are the policies in states around the country and federally that we need to push to ensure that not just that we protect the vote, but that we make every vote or cat not just every vote count. And for us at color of change constantly sort of thinking about that. And thinking about when we asked people to take an action on something that they're outraged on something that they're worried about how do we translate that into a policy fight? And you know, the politics are not always going to be there. And so some of that right now has to be about. Tilling the soil about putting forward big demands. Even know we may not yet have the policy, but recognizing that will never get there. If we refuse to actually be aspirated if we fuse to actually put forward what we really want. Sean Robinson color of change. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. So daring to know what you want. It is perhaps not surprising to hear about him next gen approach to civil rights when so many young black people in the United States feel frustrated and disillusioned by the current state of play author unequal Allen talked to dozens of black millennials from all over the United States for her new book. It was all dream. It's called a new generation confronts. The broken promise to black America. And I've been speaking to her about those broken promises and the significance in front of her books title. Renisha Allen, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me here cushy on. So you've risen this book. And it's getting a lot of buzz, and you particularly have sort of the millennial experience. What is the significance of the title? It was all dream. So it was all dream is a lyric from rob song from the notorious via gee, when I was growing up as a young person in the nineties, and it was about this rapper from bedside a very poor neighborhood in New York City, having his dreams become realized he was making it he had money all of a sudden. And for me, I realized that something that didn't quite feel so possible anymore is I inter my thirties. And as I saw a lot of my millennials. Peter's really struggling to have their dreams realized. So I was wondering is it all it dream? It was all dream. It felt like, you know, Barack Obama his presidency was ending and people were still really struggling. And while millennials. I think overall struggle black moon. Were having a specific and unique time and in a hard time kind of just dealing with growing up. So let me let me just get straight though, you sort of on the cutting edge in that you're one of the original sort of older generation of millennials right now. So are you saying that when you heard this song and his experience Dettori is about this other Rapa things were looking like they were better, and you feel now than not so good? Absolutely, absolutely. I came of age like like, you mentioned I'm an older millennial and when I came of age things felt possible. Jesse Jackson was running for president. That was a big deal are parented endured. Affirmative action had benefited from -firmative action. Argentina parents like the first people that really were in corporate America. They were African Americans who were by all means kind of succeeding, even though a lot of them grew up with with segregation. But our parents were doing well by by many. Accounts in all of a sudden when we came of age, it didn't seem like that necessarily was the case, you know, Barack Obama was such a high moment for a lot of young black millennials. But at that same time, we had a proclaim to the world that black lives matter that our lives matter. There was a humanity that I think we've still were fighting for and it felt exhausting. We have cell phone technology now. Right. So you can see a lot of our pain and struggle every day. We saw Mike Brown laying out we see these videos of young black bodies getting attack constantly over and over people getting shot in the street, and that's a hard place to be. So so let me ask you because I want to you've done a huge amount of research you've written this book. And I wonder whether you have synthesized why this is happening. I just read one of your quotes you write today. I laugh at my early nineties. Notion of making it yet out his cool. It never really changed. My American dream was not to mess up. My dream was to defy expectations to be unpredictable to do something better. And something more than my ancestors. So I mean, you had those hopes what you think went wrong so to speak who I'm in student debt college. What went wrong, I think America, his always been hard for young black people? I think it's hard for millennials in general. You know, there was a piece just this week about millennial burnout from BuzzFeed. So I think it's hard for this generation. I think there's a lot of uncertainty. We don't have the jobs that are parents that we have to get degrees. If we wanted just make it ahead a little bit those factory jobs. Right. The you could go to high school, and you know, have an have a job on a factory line in in B. Okay. And have a home on. That's the -bility has gone. Right. So many of my peers are freelancers, there's uncertainty. We have a lot of student debt those jobs. I don't know anybody who's been on a job for ten years. And I definitely don't know anyone who's had a pinch in. So I. Think that it's really difficult. There's a lot of uncertainty in that's being passed down to this generation. And I think that is the difference. And then I should say I think the other difference is having Barack Obama become president. Right. The idea possibility realize Obama was such a tremendous figure whether you like him or not or disagree with his politics. It was the site of. Yes, we can't achieve but then I'm looking at the world after and I'm looking at black America after I'm looking at how people of color in this country being treated, I'm looking at what happened in Charlottesville enough to all that after all the excitement of having someone like the rock Obama in the White House where we are today. We feel more divided than ever feels like we have to still fight and fight and fight for humanity. And we saw Barack Obama and Michelle Obama in their kids have to do that. And that's a hard hard place to be. I mean, I don't wanna say that many of us bought into this kind of idea that we were. Becoming a post racial society. But even the young men and women that I talked to some of them actually believe that they thought that we were going to be in a better place and to see that America's not if we're actually in a worse place than ever. And that's that's a tough thing. I think to deal with what it is tough. It's tough to hear you say as well to you said to be in a worse place than ever. It's really hard to hear you say that. And of course, you do highlight the difference the actual factual difference and difference of opportunity between black and white millennials which presumably mirrors the difference between blacks and whites in America, period. But let me ask you this. Because you quote in your book, the current President Donald Trump who once said a well educated black has a tremendous advantage over well educated white in terms of the job market. Now, I believe he said that in one thousand nine hundred nine and he may or may not still think that but do programs like affirmative action help. I mean, I will what do you make of that statement? I think it's misguided. I think it was misguided in the eighties. Misguided? Today's though, I mean, we know that this thing that is white privilege is like it's not made up lake being white in America does provide you with like a boost in society. Whether you see it or not, it is a thing by virtue people just giving you the benefit of the doubt when you walk into a room not saying, I grew up with a lot of privilege, right? I grew up in the black middle class. I did not actually I did not come from many slums or poverty, but I will say that programs. Like affirmative action. I think actually did benefit people like myself, my mom, just because we don't have the networks. Right. You might have had if it Donald Trump's father. I mean that gave him a huge boost in while a lot of Americans don't have that they may have a friend or no friend of a friend. Let me just give you some statistics. Go to what you're saying. The National Academy of sciences lost year said hiring discrimination against. Hasn't changed in the last twenty five years, if you're black Latino you have to work harder just to get an interview. Even if you as well qualified as white candidates. I spoke with William John Doe who has you know, was working in the Obama White House in the my brother's keeper program, and he said to me even a year ago similar to what you're saying. Let's just play it been ninety nine percent of American communities, if you're black boy, you're going to have a consistent and persistent income gap from your white male peer, even if you were born with the same economic circumstances. So if you're a millionaire black boy your chances of being incarcerated or the same as a white boy from the household that has thirty six thousand you're just as likely to fall out of the top income brackets as you are to stay. If you're an African American boy. So just just stunning data. Is that consistent with what you're finding? Oh, absolute