35 Burst results for "Hamza"

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

05:19 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"Week they gave us this book that was written by a longtime producer there. Jonathan kern, I think it's called sound reporting. I knew they'd given this book and I'd read it. 13 years ago or something. And I looked back at the part about impartiality and bias. And there's some line in there about like a charge of bias is like the worst possible charge that a reporter can ever be stung with, basically. Something pretty dramatic like that. I might be overstating it quite and I just remember reading that and being like, yeah, of course. I don't remember having a single thought about that. When I read that book, you know? And I remember looking back at it like doing this work with Hamza and just being like, I just slipped into this mode of doing things. Very unquestioningly. And that's kind of what I'm talking about there is how easy it was for me to slip into that, whereas in the show you here Hamza's reaction to one of the first interviews he's ever done as a journalist with Albert Bohr and how much feeling it stirred in him to sit through that interview. That just never happened to me. And that's by dint of who we are and what we're bringing to these stories and the way we see them. When we started talking, I know you said you feel sort of like numb and not sure what to do because you've had this punch list for months, but hearing you say all that. I mean, I feel like I have to ask, do you have any sense of how that change will impact the work you do going forward? Because you're in a pretty unique position in this industry. I mean, you can do whatever you want. Whatever I want. Awesome. That sounds great. Do you disagree with that? I don't know. I don't know. Sure. I mean, no, I don't feel like I could do whatever I want. But I feel like there are cool opportunities. This is a dumb thing for us to debate. But I'm also right. But the question is, whether you have some sense of how that change could impact the work you decide to do? What I'm most interested in right now is helping people I think what I could bring is I've done this a few times. I've worked in this field a long time. I've worked in this medium for more than a decade longer than it's kind of been in Vogue as a medium since after cereal, there's so many people interested in podcasting and saw some and a lot of people are trying to tell stories and audio. And along with some of my colleagues like we've just been doing it for a while since the public radio, this American life days and what's exciting to me is to find people who have a story to tell or that they want to report like Hamza, who haven't done it before. There was no long tradition of podcasting school, the way there was film school or something. You know, there just isn't there aren't those structures to train people in the medium itself. And I feel like kind of working with people who have a story that they're hungry to tell for whatever reason who have a personal connection to that story. In some way or another. And working with them to try and figure out how to tell it in this medium and push the medium in the process of doing that. That's what I would like to spend my time doing more than reporting my own story. That's what seems most exciting to me. How does I got two questions for you? And then we're done. I wonder how it strikes you to have part of your goal for the show to be to change people's mind and to hear your partner four and a half years and talk about how you changed his mind. He's been speaking this way for a number of years with me, you know what I mean? About the story and what is, et cetera, et cetera and I had ideas, but I always also knew that I am like, I'm so fresh to this that it's ridiculous for me to kind of like stand behind these ideas as if they're like principles that everyone should abide by because what the fuck do I know. You know what I mean? I'm doing this first story and this is just what I feel about it. But there was something about him reflecting some of these ideas back and him speaking to what this process is meant to him and what the way I regard him that for him to be taken in some of these ideas and feeling certain way about it. I had so much more, I don't know like faith in my own words, you know what I mean? And I was like, what if Brian read is thinking the stuff that's coming out of my mouth is reasonable. Then maybe I am talking sense. You know what I mean? And there's a process of just for a while as I was writing through this stuff, it was just like, you know, what is Brian make of it? Because that would mean something to me. So I met a lot, it meant a lot when he was taking these ideas and feeling a certain way about it. And questioning his own approach to journalism and stuff like this, it meant a lot. And it was settling. Yeah, it just felt kind of more with the reporting that we were doing because I knew the person next to me was also kind of starting to see what it was all about or why I was doing it. The show starts with you saying that this is your first and likely your last story. Is that how you feel sitting here right now? Is this your last one? I don't know. I don't know. I was asked this a couple of nights ago by someone. And I've had a bunch of a bunch of tweets about that. Don't give up, don't give up, you know? Et cetera, et cetera and I don't necessarily feel like giving up, but you have to understand that they are walked into that dressing room. What 2017 or whatever it was? I haven't had time to actually process what's happening. This whole thing has just been accidentally ignited and I've been kind of doing it doing.

Hamza Jonathan kern Albert Bohr Brian
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

05:36 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"I'm sorry. I didn't mean to I feel like I was lecturing you there. I didn't mean for it to come off that way. I'm really sorry. Listen, you got nothing too apologized for in this situation. I have fucked us both up. It's my fault and you're being surprisingly patient with me if I'm honest to flowers. Trust me, I would not be this diplomatic with you if that was you have done that. Man, whatever on those words, I will own those words. What do you mean, I own them? Do you believe them? Are they true? Well, okay, here's. Let me just be Frank here, okay? What's that list again? Who am I saying that I don't believe? You never believed in the official narrative regarding the Trojan horse. That seems fair. That's fine. I never believed the letter was authentic. Take that one. You never believed tahir alum was masterminding the sinister Islamic plot. I didn't. I never believed Birmingham City council. I don't. I still don't. I never believed Peter Clark. I don't. I never believed Michael gove. I don't. I never believed riz von adar. I don't. That's the tape I didn't hear until the edit. I refused to hear it. I've never read that letter again, because just the trauma of the moment. So the first time I heard it was when I'm building that episode for the edit and I can hear myself on the tape and very casually when you're causing back like yo, you know what I mean? I'm immediately in a different place mentally I can hear it. And it just created that kind of like the divide and conversation where I'm just like I'm full of guilt and I'm full of shame, but I'm also like, I'm not rowing those words back because it's true. And I'm kind of like, in some sense, like, I remember telling him afterwards when we were reporting when we continued to report that. So I felt liberated actually. I felt liberated by that moment. I felt like, oh, finally. I don't have to pretend like this is who I am. This is what I believe and that's the soul. I was relieved that every interview we go into now, there's an awareness that's been created by this letter of mine that I don't have to pretend to be some kind of transcendent reporter that who's now affected by this or who has no thoughts about this like, yeah, that's all my ideas, you know? And yeah, it was kind of like weirdly comforting as the process went on. Once I knew the story wasn't going to be killed, I was like, great. Brian, there's a moment, I think it's in that episode where you say, I was in the middle of a change in how I understand my work, there was a way I'd gone about my job for years that I'd begun to doubt without admitting it to myself. And I have some ideas. And I also may have missed it. But I'm not sure that I heard you say in the show exactly what that was. Is it something you can articulate? I could try. It has to do with like when I listen to that conversation I had with Hamza after that letter came out. I'm expecting him to do the work the same way I do it. And to approach the work of journalism the same way I have for a long time. And there's an expectation I have and he's hasn't met that expectation and I'm like upset about it, you know? And at the same time, like I'd always thought of myself as someone, you know, I work for, I don't work for some stodgy old newspaper. I work at a place of American life where there's a lot of room for creativity where personal perspective and takes on stories is encouraged. And I'd always thought that that was something I was open to and conversant in. You know, I felt like I'd worked on stories like that and worked with contributors like that and colleagues like that. But kind of as time went on working with Hamza and that experience as well, the summer of 2020, talking to colleagues more, talking to just people more. That's consumers of journalism. Like I still wasn't as open to it as I thought I was. I still had an idea of how this work was supposed to be done and these ideas that have really come into question in the last few years about objectivity and impartiality, quotes around these words about what they actually mean. And its role in journalism and its role in allowing a status quo to persist. And that's kind of what I'm talking about there. And what I kind of hope without having to spell it out is the existence of this story. And the series and the way we tell it. That when you get to the end, you kind of realize this is different in certain ways. And it would not have been told this way if not for Hamza and my perspectives clashing Hamza's perspective driving the question in the first place. Had I told this story alone, it would sound completely different. I have no idea how it would even sound. And to try and imagine that there's some kind of agreed upon point of view. That we're all supposed to take to stories and kind of inhabit within a realm of acceptability in our field like I just don't agree with that anymore. And I feel confused that I ever accepted it. That I did. Yeah. I mean, during this process, like I wrote about this, it got cut, but I went and looked at it I was like, what did I even learn this idea of like, you're not supposed to share your feelings in a certain way? This idea of objectivity and open minded, it's like, how did I even learn it? And because I'm working with this guy who is his first story. He just went to journalism school. I know where he learned it. Hamza wrote an essay and a partiality for school. I didn't go to journalism school. We're not even internalized this idea. And I went back to this book, my first real journalism job was at NPR through a fellowship there called the croc fellowship..

tahir alum riz von adar Hamza Peter Clark Birmingham City council Michael gove rowing Frank Brian NPR
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

03:05 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"Certainly something we talked about a lot of just like this is giving a name and a lot more experiences like being shared by reporters and journalists of color over decades who've had different types of struggles and experiences of having to suppress who they are or feel like they have to express who they are or betray who they are in some way or trying not to and running into friction and pushback from people within their own organizations from the industry. Just lots of stories coming out about this. And it just felt like, oh yeah, this is like what's been happening with us. So I think it actually feels like a different conversation now because of that summer, but a lot of the stuff that happened like happened before that summer as well. So that context gave you guys a different way to think and talk about the gap between how you were approaching the story. Somewhat somewhat yeah, definitely. I mean, we were talking about it. Like we were building the story around those moments at that point. And then that happened in the middle of it and it kind of made it feel more important and like a little stranger to pretend that that wasn't part of the process. And that wasn't something that had been an important part of us working together. I'd like to try and not talk about that felt very strange. It's like to save those discussions for a conversation like this, but not have it in the show itself. I don't know. This is a medium to try things different and let's try this here and see what happens. Hamza, how do you feel about how it played out? I thought I said this to Brian throughout that if I thought it was worthwhile, then I don't mind just portraying all that happened between us and the story and the way we reported it. If I felt it was worthwhile. And I reserve judgment for a while. We built episode three, we built episode four, is when we got to episode 6 where that moment happens with my letter, I remember thinking, no, I think this is it's a decent thing for me to kind of impel myself for. You know what I mean? I think it allows us to speak about things that I don't know if we would do without my mistakes and without having to be a part of this process. And so at that point I felt settled by up to that point, I just felt this was weird and self indulgent and naval gaze, and I was just kind of like what is going on here. But when we go to episode 6, I just felt that there was a purpose to it and this is felt okay to me for us to try. I don't know how other people feel about it, but for me, I got to a place where they were. I thought it was okay to try them. You know what? Can we take a second and just listen to you guys have this conversation on the phone? I think it's worthwhile. I mean, you know, we could have done this 15 different times in this interview, but this moment is so critical. And I just want people to hear it again. So here's a clip from the top of episode 6. You two are on the phone, talking about this letter. This is slightly edited down from what's actually in the show, but I just want to refresh people's memory for a second. Brian started reading a letter to me. That has been sent to the tribunal by the three Muslim TAs in response to his request. The main responsibility of a journalist is to report the news in a truthful, unbiased and apolitical way. And to educate the public about events and issues and how they affect their lives. I do not believe these matter will be reported in quote unquote, an unbiased and apolitical way..

Hamza Brian
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

06:54 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"Do that, but like my arms didn't move quite as clearly as him. So I just started doing this kind of weird kind of like dictator on those kind of banging on your desk. But that just helped me get a bit of a rhythm going, you know what I mean? I was just any trick like that. I was just like, you sat next to me, so whatever he was doing, I was just like, okay, that works. So this works and actually his posture, he set up now where he's sat back now like these are just watching him just like hoping it worked out. Brian you were saying earlier, it would have been like a very meta to have you guys talking about the ending at the ending of the show. But there is a lot of talk in the show a lot of thinking and questions and wrestling with the idea of journalism. And I'm interested in what point you guys decided to take those ideas and questions and make them text and not subtext and then how you find a way to talk about them and write about them felt as naturally as you did because I think that stuff is hard to make compelling and not arm's length and highbrow. So how did you guys think about the ideas of journalism coming into the show? It was really hard. I think that's actually what took so long. Was figuring out what we took to calling the journalism Mark. And it's just a testament to editing. I'd say. Like our editor is just saved us. And those parts of the show will have differing reactions, I think some people will say, why do I need to hear from you guys at all? I'm here to hear the reporting, you know? And that's valid. And I've seen some response. So far of people really appreciate it or certainly strikes them and makes them think about the story differently. And the perspectives like hams and I are bringing to the story. If it doesn't feel overwrought, it's because of editing. I would say it's because of Sarah Becky Neil. Us just writing and trying to get ideas out, but having to kind of put it in the most kind of overwritten crude over explaining way and then just over and over again, then trying to pair us back or hone an idea or force us to explain something a little better or to move something from text into subtext. Did it even feel like a choice to you guys? Or did it feel like you had to do that? It wasn't a choice. There had to be some level of it. There was a version of the first opening of the series where I opened the series. Like I had written a beginning. I think the idea was, people know who you are, Brian, you should start it. Like we're not going to start with this rando. Everybody's ever heard before and not mention that someone who's actually done a show before that people have listened to. Not even mentioned that you're involved until 6 minutes in or whatever. But I remember the reaction to that first read was kind of like Julie Snyder, particular was just like, I have no idea why you're telling the story. And there's a way you can just do reporting where you don't like the narrator doesn't have a personal connection to it. But there's something about the types of stories we're doing where the investment is so big in this medium, which has an intimacy to it, going on for episodes at a time where it's just easier and more relatable if you can understand why the person, the person's not some voice of God. The person is a person who's undertaken a project for a reason. Even if we didn't end up building big ruminations or diversions about journalism in the show. I think what we're figuring out as we do more of these shows kind of in our world is serial in the American life. It's like it just helps to have the reporter or narrator be able to explain what interested them at the very least or like why they're connected to the story. And once we switch that up the top work much better, once hansa began it and kind of just explained, I heard this happen. I was living in town when it happened. It was just like a much more human way to explain why this thing exists in the first place. Where are you at on and Hamza? I was very uncomfortable at the beginning. I remember when we were structuring the series like, I was at a man to be like, okay, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're going to keep the whole journalist spectacle to kind of like as minimum. I'd done stuff in the reporting process. That meant there was always going to be an element of it that we had to comment on and make part of the narrative because I'd placed the project in that situation through my own actions. So I was like, okay, I was well aware. You're talking about the letter. I'm talking about. Yeah, so once that moment happened, there was always like, okay, well, not the letter, but the other letter, your letter. But yeah, can you be more specific? We're making the assumption that people who are listening to this have probably listened to the show, but Hamza wrote a letter to a source. Basically saying, this is what I've always believed and this is where I'm coming from. Right. So once that moment happened, it was, you know, that's part of the narrative now. That's part of the experience as part of this project and it would be a very bizarre thing just to kind of dip your toe into it just be like, oh, suddenly he was like, here's one of the reporters going too far and it's a weird thing to set up without having some kind of thread that goes along with it. I remember those two things actually. One was that letter. And then a bore one, the interview that we did with our board, the first interview that we did. And I remember that was like first week of reporting I think is like the first big official we're interviewing and I think I'd known Brian for like a day or two by that point. And we went into this room and we're doing this interview and for about two hours with this guy. He was kind of like, you know, you speak and stuff that was pissing me off and I was very actively keeping my mouth shut because I'm like a reporter now you're reporting now you're reporting now you don't say anything. You don't say anything. You just kind of listen, you listen, you listen. So when we come out of council house where we met him for two hours, I'd just been suppressed and suppressant suppressants so like I didn't know initially I didn't know he was still recording and I just burst because it was like, you know, all the stuff that I didn't say in the room, which is like flowing at me. And so we kept walking and talking. So we had a bunch of tape that happened after I interview, which, again, if we weren't kind of like centering our story in any sense, that conversation would not have necessarily been a part of the process. So when we heard that tape and the editors liked it and stuff like this, those are things that had happened as part of the reporting process, which meant that there had to be an element of that storyline weave through. But it just kind of as we're building each episode. It was just bits that were just felt relevant and right and important to include as part of the commentary on what was happening and again, I don't think we specifically planned for it to be like that exhaustive of a storyline, but it just felt right. It just felt like a thing that was carrying us through the story. Both the things that Hamza just talked about those big moments, those happened in 2018, I believe. So then another thing that happened was the summer of 2020, like in the middle of reporting this project, where among the many things that were happening in society after the murder of George Floyd was a discussion in our industry in the industry of journalism about identity and personhood in reporting basically, like the question of being both a person and a journalist became very present..

Sarah Becky Neil Brian Julie Snyder Hamza wrestling Mark George Floyd
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

06:57 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"And we thought we were going to get absolute bollocking to just be like, okay, so clearly clearly you guys haven't prepared this episode. Just turn up with just didn't do any work. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But no, it was amazing. It was amazing. Like what I would say is just testament to all of them. You know what I mean? They have been so generous with me throughout this whole process. Blind faith, blind trust, you know what I mean? We're instruction talks. I'm throwing ideas out there based on what I don't know, but they seem to be taking it. The whole process just felt like I just felt in a space that I could say stuff and it had to be treated with respect even if I don't have any experience to call on. And I love that. Just eased me into the whole writing process. Yeah, that's remarkable. I understand the idea of feeling like you need evidence in order to change minds. But from an audience perspective, just from the story part of it, were you guys worried about not being able to answer that definitively after setting it up so clearly at the beginning or not? I mean, just to say, I never as Brian alluded to earlier. I never accepted it. I was even up to about a month ago when we're sending out like final replies to people. I was still like, maybe, maybe something was shake loose, maybe someone will break form, maybe I think it's just one thing got broadcast on Thursday I was like, all right, well, there we go. We're not going to be able to say something about that question. That's when the door closed for you. Yeah. I never had that moment where I pulled back and was just like, I don't think we know the answer to this. I think if I thought that halfway along the process, I probably would have just given up, I mean, I will forget it then. You know what I mean? There's nothing to share here. Yeah, Hamza and I were very much for a while kind of just like on our own in Birmingham. Just trying to answer this question and doing every lead we could think of to try and shake it loose. But it was when we started having editorial discussions that people started to be like, this is a compelling theory that you have. And a lot of our reporting actually, it became more about what did the government do in response to this letter? How do the people in charge act when faced with this piece of misinformation basically? And it became clear that we were going to dispense with the question of who wrote the letter by the end of episode two, kind of in the structuring people were kind of became less and less interested in that as we described more of our other reporting about how people the council responded to very obvious information in front of them, how they interacted with the national government with the national government didn't response. Those questions became more interesting to our editors and to us, too. And that was helpful to be reminded of this question is important. But really, it's only important in relation to the fact that nobody looked into it and in fact it was very like staring them in the face what they should have looked into. Not to lay it on too thick, but it's not like you haven't had shows that have questions at the beginning that are dispensed with after episode two either. As Brian's signature. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it felt like a familiar structure. I was like, is this like am I learning something about podcast structure? Because I feel like we don't have the history that TV does. I don't want to say formulaic. But these kind of accept instructors if that Hans has taught me about actually midpoint and I don't know whatever the accepted names for structural moments are. I don't know. In my experience, we don't have that in podcasting. We're at least in our shop. I don't know if you guys have it max. I think that's what makes this stuff so exciting is that there are so few rules by which people feel like they need to play. And you can approach it in a bunch of different ways. I mean, the thing to me that felt so distinct about the show was the way that you both hosted it together. And I don't think I've heard a two host show that worked in any way like this one has. That to me structurally was like the absolute magic trick of it. That's sweet. That's sweet. Oh, I appreciate that. That was one of the things we were playing with for sure. Because obviously there's plenty of shows that are hosted by more than one people. I mean, it's even done it before with a manual and Sarah. I remember talking about this pretty early on as we did the thing where we started recording everything. There'd be things that happened where I was starting to think like, oh, we have a choice here when we actually tell the story. When I called deliver Hamza news, for instance, about something that I've just received in my email that he doesn't know about yet. Is it more powerful and interesting for him to narrate that as the person being surprised? Or is it more powerful or interesting for me to narrate into that as the person who knows the news I'm delivering? And even if I didn't decide that at the moment, I was aware that there was moments where we would have an interesting choice that I had not played with before as a storyteller in this medium. And that felt exciting. So I'm glad it came through. Oh, totally. The thing that was so striking to me about it was that you were both somehow simultaneously interchangeable and totally distinct. You know what I mean? Like you were playing the same role in different places in the same episodes. Taking turns sort of narrating and leading and yet doing it from completely distinct vantage points. And also in a way didn't totally matter who was doing it. It's all incredibly hard. And yeah, there are some parts where it really doesn't matter who does it, and there are some parts where it does. And we're doing something with the choice of who's narrating which part. How many times did you guys track these episodes like going back and forth and back and forth getting that rhythm between the two of you right? How much time did that take? How much practice did that take for you guys? The tracking wasn't so bad as more than that. We just edited these things to death. We added to them so much that I think we learned like it would be better if you say this part or I'm getting tired of hearing you for a long time or hey man, give me a chance or it's through the edits, I would say that we really developed that and started to learn the aesthetic of the show and our roles in it. Hamza was it hard for you to sound spontaneous with words that you had found yourself saying hundreds of times? Yes. I remember going into the studio the first day we would like recording episode one and like with everything else and in this experience it was the first time I was in a studio recording a podcast, you know? And yeah, we just got going and the thing is Brian is just like he delivers words on magically that I'm sat next to this guy. His voice is doing all sorts of things with the narration. I'm like, fuck me, mate. Can you make any harder for me right now? And then I come in with this kind of like dull droning voice and just kind of like speaking away, but I just switched off. I was like, listen, this is how I speak. This is how I'm gonna say this stuff. I don't know if it's gonna be engaging, but I don't know what else to do with it. I used to watch him and when he's reading, I start copying him a little bit, but when he's reading his arms would be all over the place. He won't always be like conductor and orchestra, just kind of like moving his arms around. That's me copying Ira. Oh really. Okay. It's an heirloom that gets passed down. So I just saw him just kind of just like doing this to really kind of to each word..

Hamza national government Brian Birmingham Hans Sarah
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

02:59 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"Reporting almost all the interviews are in person as far as I can tell. Yeah. Luckily, we had pretty much finished. We did most of our reporting in 2019. And by the time of the pandemic Hamza had actually come over to New York and we were kind of shifting to a writing phase, basically. But there were some leads. We had our little to do list of other ten days, you know. Let's go check out this person. This person that, you know, who knows? What might have happened? We were pretty close, but pandemic and also just our bosses, just being like, you need to start writing. At this point. You've gone to Perth. Let's just get to it. Get into Google. I can start writing. Yeah, you hit what's known in podcasting is the Perth line. Exactly. Once you've crossed the international date line in your reporting and you're still coming up short then. All right, so you guys were in that phase pandemic comes your bosses are telling you you got to call it. And when you're driving away from that school and Perth where Mark is working and will come out of his office, did it feel to you then all right, this is our ending, or is that something that comes much later in the process? Later, I think. Yeah. But what I will say is I've heard some tape around that moment in Perth when we were just kind of like building the series and stuff. And as a conversation between Brian and I in the car parked outside of that school, when I moved to college, just walked in where he and I are talking to this at the end. This is, I remember having a conversation. It's recorded in the car. Yeah, you should get a pretty good tape. You guys didn't think about using that? I didn't know it existed. I forgot about it. I forgot about it. He starts the conversation from I remember now listening back to the tape. He starts a conversation by just reminding me that, hey, guess what's just happening? We've just sent a guy into the school with an envelope. He's going to walk into a reception room and he's going to place his envelope and making the connection between the beginning of the story. And just from that, we just branched to this is the final scene. This is the thing that we can work towards, et cetera, et cetera. I was half listening because I was still watching the school and hoping something to happen like, hey, of course, course course, but like shush because, you know, we've still got a lot of work to do. But he in that moment realized there was some symmetry that we can kind of explore as far as that ending is concerned. But I don't think we knew that that was going to be how the episode ends or the series ends too much later. But there was an awareness in the moment anyway. Yeah, episode 8 was actually part of episode 7 for a while until relatively late. The Australia trip. We didn't know if we would be able to get away with the whole episode, given how it ends. Like we knew that we'd had an experience with Ahmet dacosta, that he struck us as a pretty remarkable and interesting person and it was having him with us on that trip and his personal connection to mark and the story that allowed it to be. What it was. I mean, I think we actually joked at one point that without Ahmed there, that's probably one line in the script of we sought Mark Walters for comment. Right. Right..

Perth Hamza New York Google Brian Mark Ahmet dacosta Australia Ahmed Mark Walters
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

06:21 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"But I think at least what comes to mind now, the kind of toughest disagreements or debates we had was when we were getting to the point of like kind of around the time we're in Australia and stuff where it's like so many people weren't talking and combo was just like, we need to be figuring out a way to go harder. Basically, we just need to be like scarier. Essentially, like to try and scare people into talking to us. And he was just really getting sick with we're friendly. You can tell us anything like approach, which I'm used to when trying to approach sources who may not be eager to speak. You were getting pretty legitimately frustrated. With that stuff. Yeah, to a certain extent, I was feeling kind of like the purpose of the story kind of fading away. I was just sensing it. I was just sensing that, we're not going to get anywhere with this question. We're not going to get to the place that I wanted to store it to get to. And there was a sense of panic settling into just be like, I always wanted to take the story just 7 point. And that's because I had lost all faith in the reporting that already happened on the subject matter. Was that point of definitive answer to those questions? Yeah. Yeah. And that was my mentality with each source in each interviewer. I wanted the debate ended in the room because I didn't want commentary beyond it. I don't want any kind of interpretation beyond it. I wanted the situation to be resolved there and then. So I felt that I had some clarity about what I was saying and I felt the story had some clarity and without certain answers I thought we weren't going to be able to speak about this matter in a way that I wanted to speak about it. And around the time we're in Australia and stuff like this, literally like it was nobody left. There was nobody left we pulled out every string, everyone had the shut the door ran away or called the police on us or whatever they tried to do. So it was just, you know, I was just realizing that we're not going to get there. We're not going to get there. And then I had next to me, Brian, who just seemed pretty content with that. I'm not saying content, but more accommodating. You know what I mean? More hopeful that it's okay, it's okay. And I didn't want to hear that. It's okay. But what I will say about him is that he's annoyingly generous. You know what I mean? It's so hard to get into an argument with Brian Reid. I tried I tried my best because sometimes it's just nice to just kind of like just vent and get it out and sometimes it's nice just to have an opponent's opposite. Where you can just kind of go toe to toe with and just feel good about yourself afterwards or at least I find some thrill in it. And he is just he's a ninja. He will just erase your kind of approaches and give you the most reasonable generous kind of responses and kind of back down and be hard. It makes you feel like an idiot for trying to keep going, you know, I mean, I have to forget I love this guy. You know? So it was very hard to kind of get him to engage in an argument in a way that I think is extremely healthy for him and extremely unhealthy. I think it comes out of I appreciate that. But I think it comes out of our expectations, like something that I came to realize over the course of working on this with you is we say this in the last episode, like in that room when you came up to pitch me the story. I said to you. It's gonna be really hard to find out who wrote it. It's probably impossible, but there's still value in the story. I can see that this story will take you places that are important and you'll find things that are important. And that's my understanding of journalism and storytelling in my experience is if we only did stories where we could get the definitive answer to the question. I'm not sure what we'd be doing, you know? Will we be left doing? And so I desperately wanted to know the answer who wrote the letter, but kind of understood that we probably weren't going to get it beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I thought that I had transmitted that to Hamza and that he understood that. But as time went on, I realized that he had not accepted that as the likely outcome. And this is what was actually so energizing to work with you, Hamza, because you never let your hope and desire and hunger to get that answer ever get dimmed. Like ever. And it's remarkable. It's a pretty remarkable thing to be next to somebody who's just like till the end. We need to do whatever it takes to get the truth of this. Because the thing about it is, again, I speak from a place of only haven't done one story, so take everything I say with a skepticism of like you would with any novice, but I always just thought that if we produced a compelling narrative if we explored a theory and gathered evidence to speak to it, but couldn't say anything definitively about the Trojan horse affair. I thought the people who would be convinced by the people who would be receptive to it. Would already the people who would be open to these ideas who would already be people who could understand and take it in and the ones who don't necessarily need to be convinced. And what I was kind of going for is the people who otherwise would be difficult to kind of get them to engage with the story, get them to believe a certain thing about the Trojan horse get them to roll back what the voters said about it or change their mind about what this I thought in order to change someone's mind, not to speak to those people. We need it just proof proof. Because that takes away the possibility of like, well, I don't believe in I don't like you and actually I don't like these people or whatever. Like for me, the purpose was compelling narrative sure, but in order to kind of unpick the Trojan horse, you would need to convince a whole swath of people who aren't kind of allied with you guys. And in order to do that, you need to proof. That's why I've kept going. Has that changed? Do you feel that way now? It's early days. In principle, I do, in principle, I do. I still think that the people who believe the original narrative or are more likely to believe something like that about Muslims. I don't imagine they're listening to this and think like shit. Maybe there was something else at play. You know what I mean? I think they'll still listen to and go. Yeah, I mean, decent story, but we don't know. They didn't speak to everyone in Birmingham, you know what I mean? So for all we know, there's like a whole other narrative that wasn't explored, and I think that was my issue, trying to get them to change their mind. And given that gap, how do you guys find an ending both, how do you decide when to call it with reporting? And then how do you land on an ending that feels satisfying because I don't know if you guys have heard this before, but sometimes podcasts are criticized for being unsatisfying. For not nailing the end. I mean, the pandemic kind of called it for us. I'd say. That was another question. That's true..

Brian Reid Australia Hamza Brian Birmingham
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

05:30 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"You guys start doing this project together, you're an ocean apart, Brian's coming and showing up, and I assume you guys are having sort of like reporting sprints and then keeping in touch from New York to Birmingham. And but how did you guys develop your reporting partnership? There's this like buddy cop aspect of the show, which I feel like I've already encountered. This conversation, too. How did that happen? How did you guys figure out how to work together? I feel like you should lead on this one. I've never worked with anyone else. It was fun. You know, my background is as a producer at this American life. And that's what the job is. You're basically working with someone who probably hasn't done a radio or podcast story before. In many cases, very experienced accomplished great reporters who just haven't done our medium before coming from print or filmmaker or the job is you're reporting the story alongside them. You're doing the interviews with them. You're helping to produce the interviews, which is not just a technical thing. It's structuring the interviews in a way that allows the tape to work the best it can for audio. So that wasn't abnormal to me. And it was actually nice like an S town I'd been doing everything alone. I had an editor, but I was on the ground alone. And it was really fun to be kind of doing that again with Hamza. It was the first time he was doing everything, but he also had a clear knack for it. You know, just kind of the best feeling like it felt like we both brought something to it. And it was like a true collaboration in the best sense. We worked on it for so long that we were both kind of like changing and adapting as it happened at the story through us each for legit loops. Through the process. But yeah, it was fun working with somebody who had never done this before, it was actually it was refreshing. And exciting and also it felt like anything could happen. At certain points as well. Which is scary, but also something I was looking for in a long-term project. I mean, the thing about living on add to that is that obviously when he first came, I was petrified. I was like, okay, so how do I best stay out of his way? You know what I mean? Here is someone who's going to be much better. All of this than me. And I have few mistakes can I make in this process? It turns out I could still make many even when I'm consciously thinking about it. But the thing which I think really at first I was really put off by it, but I think ultimately helped a lot in terms of us and the way we report the stories that Brian decided from day one. He was going to record everything, right? So I remember we went to my apartment, and he just started setting up these microphones and I was like, what are you doing? We're not interviewing anybody here. Like in my head, I was like, we will basically have the microphones running when we're interviewing people, and then otherwise you and I can just kind of chill and build a bit of a relationship together and I'll get to know you, you get to know me in private and then we'll be doing our work in the meantime. He was recording everything. So it just kind of forced us to basically like even in our downtime, like sometimes we'd be having dinner in here at the record on. You know what I mean? Like sometimes we'll just be driving around AMD so you could have the recorder on. And that just meant that we just had to basically speak to each other the way we normally would, because all day long, the recorder was running. And I felt like that helped in the sense that the kind of story that you're hearing because there was no dissociation between us to hanging out and chatting about things and us to working. Like in my mind, I was just basically constantly just hanging out with Brian on this journey together. But they're legitimately what didn't feel like this is our private time and this our work time. It just cool thing was just being documented. And part of that, Brian is practical like you never know what's going to happen. You never know what you're going to use. But is part of the idea what hamster is talking about that if you're just recording everything all the time, then you're never really performing, you're never really on. I haven't thought about it exactly in those terms. I mean, this was new for me too. All those other times I've talked about where I am producing other people. I did not record us kind of talking through the story. A lot of that was for tighter episodes of this American life or something. But because I had the sense that this might be a long-term project that could be multiple episodes and because I liked the fact that Hamza was doing this story. Like what drew me to the story was Hamza having this question. Hamza being from Birmingham, Hamza doing a story for the first time. His clear hunger from the very first moments that he told me this story to just find out the answer to this question who wrote the Trojan horse letter and why? I just like the fact that it bothered him so much. And that it happened right down the road from him that he wanted to make this his first story. That was what sold the story for me. I don't know that had my BBC friend pitched me this story I would have done it. In the show, you guys have some of the most likeable fights I've ever heard in my life. It sounds as though, and even talking to you now. It sounds like you guys just such a kick out of each other. But it's a lot of time together and then all of these storage decisions and I wonder how you guys navigated it. At least from my vantage point. So easily. I mean, you go. No, go on, go on. Overall, I was surprised at how little we got sick of each other, at least from my end, like I would have expected more. Feel free to say otherwise, Hamza I don't mean to step on any truth that you might have to share here. But this is why I wanted to go first max in front of the discussion. How to go hard, say all the things to Brian never said..

Hamza Brian Birmingham New York AMD BBC Brian never
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

03:22 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"To this specific school and basically paint a picture of this like this courtroom with a bunch of characters and a judge saying that led to like it came from someone here or someone associated with people here. And I thought that would kind of make it like a different kind of patient and hopefully the BBC dude were kind of back off because he wasn't quite sure. I was talking about and Brian would just kind of engage with what I'm saying. So as I do this as my new kind of approach to set up this, like, who do I speak to question? Brian jumps in and goes, that's a really good story. I might want to look into this with you. Now, my mind is like, what the fuck did you say? You might want to look into this with you. For a second, I was just like, that was strange. So immediately, my expectation shoots up dramatically now, because I'm like, oh, okay, hang on. Do you want to look into this with me? So again, I'm painting all cool. What's it called? Yeah, just give me a remote address and we'll be in touch and blah, blah, blah, you know, just trying to be a chill about things, but inside, I'm like screaming. What the fuck did you just say? And Brian's like, give me my backpack, I'll give you my business card and he's like shuffling around. He doesn't have a business card, right? So I was like, just give me your email I'll write in my phone. It's all good. We can do this this way. It's pretty straightforward. And his road manager Johnson. Oh my God. I thought we were. No, no, no, no, no, no, max needs to know this. Max needs to hear. Resisted like 7 road manager jokes in the last 5 minutes. I'm so glad you brought that up. Trust me. If there's a road janitor in the first act of a story, you know what happens by the last act. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally totally. Anyway, this dude jumps in and he's like, I will connect you to. And I was like, well, he's right here. I'll just take his email. You don't need to be involved in this. It's all good. And he was like, I will connect you to you email me and I'll see Brian. Anyway, Brian gets all confused. I get all confused. Next thing I know I'm being escorted out of the building without his email address. And I'm like, what the fuck was that? What was the point of that? And the funny thing was, as he was leading me out, this road managed dude. I hope he's not listening to this. Explain was, as he was leading me out, he was like, yeah, so fascinating story that you just told me and I was just like, yeah, yeah, it's a good story. I agree with you. Can I just go back and get his details anyway? He pushes me out the door. I'm gone. And then I'm like, okay, maybe so I emailed this road manager dude, and I'm like, can you hook me up with Brian? No response. It's just silence. Silence for a couple of weeks. I'm like, I don't understand this guy's game. And then eventually I just go on the this American life website and I just figure out like, oh, they're email structure has pretty clear pattern to it. I can figure out what Brian's email is. So I just drop in an email just like a suit, and this is email. It lands in his inbox. And yeah, I get a phone call a few days later and here we are. I was meaning to reach out to you, by the way. Oh wait. Yeah, you know how? I don't know, I would have figured it out. Your road manager? Yeah, exactly. No, 'cause yeah, I was waiting to hear from you. I was actually waiting to hear from you. It wasn't a casual thing. Yeah. That's nice. Hey, I want to pause things here for a word from our sponsor audible. Artists have used their voices to create social change in America for decades from Sam Cooke becoming one of the first African American artists to have their own record label to Jay-Z, crafting a multi-billion dollar partnership to help inner city youth receive much needed resources. Activism and artistry have long gone hand in hand. Now, audible wants you to hear more of their.

Brian BBC Johnson max Max Sam Cooke America Jay
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

06:10 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"Particularly after how much time you guys spent on it. And I think there's probably an argument that it takes that much time to tell the story in the way that you guys did, which no one has before. But I'll push back on that a little bit. We're also just a little slow. We're slow. Well, I want to understand that because I know how long you've been working on it, but I'm not sure other people do. And it's slightly elliptical in the show. Yeah. Exactly how long you were working on it. And so we're embarrassed of it. Yeah, well, how slow we are. How long were you working on it? It's a reference for people listening. We call people prime minister and the name changes several times in that story. Theresa May's reference at prime minister David Cameron is referenced a prime minister Boris Johnson is referenced. That gives you a little reference for how long we've been working. We were not working on it on camera, was prime minister. I don't think. Right. But anyway, I hope not. Yeah, no, I met Hamza in either September, October, I think it was of 2017. And a little bit of the preliminary reporting was kind of happening. We stayed in touch up without fall. But I had a full-time job. I was senior producer at this American life. So I was running a radio show. So I'd kind of like stay in touch with him, you know, he was in school. I'd be like, here's a recorder. Can you go do this? Or go pull this record, go to this event. I think I took my first reporting trip there with him for a week in early 2018. And then over that year, we were kind of working on it like part time. Was there a point Brian where you went from like I'm helping this kid I met backstage out with this project to this is the thing I'm going to do next? I actually felt pretty bullish on it being the thing I was going to do next pretty early. It was more like as things were really hard, like a little later where I was like, wait, should this be the thing I'm doing next? Because it was just like nobody was talking. This is like, you know, this is radio or podcasting. It's helpful to have people talk in order to tell a story. It's a lot of documents. Hamza was being such a pain in the ass. Absolutely. Yeah, Hamza was like fucking up here and there. It was just like relentlessly. At the beginning I was very bullish and hopeful and then there were like moments where I questioned that as time went on. You must have felt a lot of pressure. In how you were going to follow up as town. I actually, I mean, maybe subconsciously, but I really tried not to tap into that. I'd like to tap into it for just a second. Because it seems really hard to me, man, you made like that. The best podcast ever. It must have been a little stop it. I'm not going to stop it. It must have been a little freaky to think about how you follow that up. And I know you well enough to know that you actually can compartmentalize like that and just decide not to think about it. But I'm interested in just from a story perspective, like the kind of thing you wanted to do next, why did this feel right? Why did this feel big enough and ambitious enough to satisfy that? I mean, it was definitely after S town, I wasn't in a position where I had to find a story to report, like I had this job that was fulfilling where I was mostly editing other people's stories and putting together a radio show. And that was actually very good because it meant that I never had to do another story of my own again if I didn't want to. You know, it put me in a position of like, if something catches my attention or interests like maybe then I'll consider it. But I didn't feel like this burning pressure to write a second book or something the way that an author might, which was a helpful position to be in. But then some months after S town came out, I got wind of a story in Alaska. That was about this fight they were having in this remote town over whether to pass a nonbinding resolution to simply state the town is welcoming to immigrants or not. And the town was driven apart about this, even though there were essentially no immigrants in the town. And I went there to report on this debate and it was pretty remarkable that there was a real strain of the residents of this town literally at the end of the road in America. Who were Tapping in a news about Europe in particular and about migrant communities in Europe kind of right-wing representations and misrepresentations of what was happening in these places. So you'd be in this field overlooking catch a Mac bay in Alaska and someone's like, well yeah, have you heard about what's happening in cologne, Germany? We don't want that to happen here. In Homer. And it was just so dislocating and very strange and the power of that. Really struck me. And I started talking to people back at this American life about. Like you just had this desire to take somebody I was talking to. And bring them to one of these places. And actually we talked about, is that a story? Should we take somebody on a trip somewhere, you know? And that was kind of the discussions I was having. Like, take someone from Homer to cologne. Yeah, I think I actually pitched this. Like if not formally informally. So that was kind of where my head was at. And I knew Birmingham was kind of on that list of these towns. There had been like a very kind of infamous Fox News segment where a commentator claimed that the entirety of Birmingham was taken over by Muslim immigrants who had turned it into a no go zone where white people couldn't go in. And he set this on Fox News. I think it's one of the few times is this ray Hamza were like Fox News actually apologized for getting something wrong. As I understand it, because I think the prime minister of Britain at the time was just like what is this and it kind of escalated. That's like a media solar eclipse, Fox News apologizing. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah. I mean, it was even a different time then. I guess when this was said. But Birmingham is kind of famously one of these cities that was used to paint this false and scary and fear mongering picture of European cities. So when I was there in Hamza mentioned this to me, kind of was in the world of stuff that I had been thinking about as a possible next story anyway, except it was like an actual mystery that felt like clue or Sherlock Holmes. I was like, oh, this is like a story. I don't need a gimmick to fly like a Homer resident. Maybe we don't need a gimmick here. This is like an actual thing that happened that is unsolved and that seems to have done damage, you know? That's so interesting. I didn't realize that you were that primed for it..

Hamza Theresa May Boris Johnson David Cameron Fox News Alaska Brian cologne Europe Birmingham ray Hamza Homer Germany America Britain Sherlock Holmes
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

06:50 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"Welcome to long form podcast. Thank you guys for doing this. Thanks, max. Oh, max. Thanks for having us. Brian, I feel like we are approaching tradition. Two makes a tradition, I hope. I think so. I think so. A couple days after S town came out, you came and we talked for a while and I asked you a bunch of questions about how you were feeling and you sort of evaded them. And now you're back, you two have a new show out. And it's been out for a couple of days and I wonder how you're feeling. I can't speak for Hamza, but I feel when it comes to feeling questions you are supposed to be thinking. I'd draw the feelings out of you. That's my job. I feel numb and not really sure what to do with myself. That's kind of how I feel. We've just been going so hard at this for so long. And to be waking up and there's not some line we could fiddle with or some fact checking thing we could check or I don't know, like some pickups to do. Like in the last month or just like it was just like this never ending constantly trying to make it a little better every day. And to not have that to do and just have it be out there is strange. And slightly empty feeling. That sounds great. Empty feeling. Sounds dark. Not dark. I just don't know what to do with myself. I just don't know. Go for a walk. Yeah. The weather was lovely. Hamza bran's been through this before and still has no idea what to do with himself. Where are you at? You know what? The best time I've had since has come out was on Friday. I went to the taping of the John Stuart show with a friend of mine. And they seal your phone, you know, it's like a live show that the filming so they sealed the phone in one of those pouches for about four hours. And that was bliss. That was the best time I've had since it's come out. And I was talking to Brian about it afterwards on the Saturday, and we were both legitimately like if we could just do that every day to seal the phone away for like four hours in a pouch, we can not get to it. I think I'll sleep genuinely. So that's where I am. I just want to be away from a phone. Did you have expectations of what this time would feel like? No. I mean, I talked to Brian about it. I was just like, tell me what happened, you know, when S town came out. But he just keeps telling me about going for a walk. Like he said, I left the studio for a walk. I went to a bar. I had some shellfish or something. I don't know. Just keep telling me the same story. So I was like okay, I'm always working relate with this for sure. Yes, I was all right. So yeah, I had zero expectations of what was going to happen. I knew it was going to do something. I just didn't know what that something was going to be. I mean, one of the conversations you guys are having in the show is how different your orientation to what the reaction to the show will be. On some level, I feel like Brian that changes more for you over the course of it than for Hamza but it's interesting that part of the reason, I guess hamster that you were doing it was for a reaction for an impact. And I wonder how you guys have felt that so far. What is the reaction been in Birmingham and in the UK? In Birmingham we're still getting a read on things. It's a little unclear. I feel like it's a long series. It's like we dropped an encyclopedia into the world or react. But I feel like people are listening, you know, take some time, take some thought, the weekend just ended. So I feel like more people have listened. And so more reactions starting to come in. In Birmingham it's a little unclear like exactly what's happening, at least in terms of the local government and stuff like that. There's been a bit of coverage about Michael gove and some other reporting and revelations that the podcast has about his involvement with this and what he knew about the letter, the Trojan horse letter before. And so that's gotten some national press, which has been gratifying because I feel like that is some of the kind of news he is stuff that we were able to uncover about this. So I'm glad that people recognize that. And I feel like there's a conversation starting to begin again about this story that people tried to say is old. But then I know there's also been response from east Birmingham and just a lot of the people we interviewed there who I just think nobody really us included to some extent, like could envision exactly what this project was. Like we've been hanging around there for so long. Like just like bothering people and interviewing people so many times and just a whole pandemic has happened, my wife and I have had a child. During that time, so much has happened. And people are just like, is this ever coming out? What is this that you're making? And why is it taking so long? And what is it going to be like? And so I think even after all that people are kind of surprised and I think kind of finding it weirdly cathartic. You think that's fair Hamza from the people you've heard from to listen to? Yeah. Yeah. In general, I'm still waiting for Britain to kind of I don't know, like, make sense of it. You know what I mean? I'm still waiting for Britain to kind of come to terms with it and decide what they're going to do about this podcast. I still think it's early. I thought the weekend is when people really started listening to it. So it's still kind of early days and I'm not sure. I don't really have a good read on what's going to happen. But in terms of just from people that I know or even just like other people on Twitter and stuff like the reaction has been really cool, people are really feeling it and the stuff that they're kind of speaking about and the stuff that I reach out to me about are all themes and the story that I was hoping people would really resonate with. So I'm hopeful. What are those themes? What are people talking about that you feel sort of validated and graduated? As soon as I said that, I knew you were going to ask me that question, max, and I was like, why did I set him up for that? I thought this was the case in which there could be a certain understanding that develops about when there's a breaking news or breaking scandal that involves Muslims. I feel like those stories are treated in a very specific kind of way where a lot of his internalized and believed pretty quickly. And I always wanted to just create a bit of a pause for the evidence to catch up to what the allegations were. And that's kind of what my intention was with this story was just like it would be nice to have a gap. It'd be nice for some space to be made where there is a claim that comes out in the papers and there is a pause from people who are reading now or receive it to be like, let's wait for the evidence. And the people who have heard the series seem to be a conversation that's happening. You know what I mean about how this case was reported on what they understood about the Trojan horse from 2014 and what they're learning from this podcast now about the stuff that wasn't covered. So there's that. And then I don't know, which is like, it's just like a snapshot of just like a reporting journey that has common during a few things, including Britain that people are Tapping into and taken forward. And that's.

Hamza Brian Hamza bran Birmingham John Stuart east Birmingham max Michael gove Britain UK Twitter
"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

Longform Podcast

03:06 min | 6 months ago

"hamza" Discussed on Longform Podcast

"I just finished the interview. It was long. It was enjoyable. I talked to Brian Reed and Hamza said you guys will know Brian, he was the host of S town. He came on the show a couple of days after S town came out, and went on huge hit, Brian went and toured the world doing talks and Q&A's and all kinds of things. And he was in a town in England, Birmingham, giving a talk. And this kid came up to him after the show, a student journalist who was working on a story, and Brian decided that he was so compelled by this pitch that he was going to join him and partner on it and do it together. The show is called the Trojan horse affair. It came out on Thursday. It is very hard to describe. And so I'm going to do a thing that I don't think we've ever done before, which is that I'm just going to ask Brian to describe it. Here you go. Here's Brian Reed. Explaining what the show is about. The show's about an unsigned, very strange bizarre letter that turned up at the Birmingham City council in 2013. That looked to be plans for an Islamist plot where these conspirators were trying to take over the city's schools and possibly radicalize kids. And the letter leaked to the press, it became a huge national scandal went all the way up to the prime minister, a former counter terror chief was sent in to investigate no plot was ever found, but at the end, like there's still remain stink of basically wrongdoing and terror against this whole community and counter extremism laws were changed. Schools were revamped, but through all that, nobody ever investigated who wrote the letter or why. Nobody ever like kind of looked at it with this basic question. And that's what hansa wanted to do. That was helpful. Now you guys can see why I didn't want to do it myself. It's very, very hard. But the one other thing I will say is it's a very complicated story. It's a pretty complicated show. And we really got into the weeds of how they told it and there's spoilers everywhere. Including the ending. So if you have not listened to the Trojan horse affair, do not listen to this interview, press pause, go listen to the show, come back. It'll make a lot more sense that way. I haven't listened to the show yet. I am going to queue this podcast in my queue until I've listened to it. As S town unabashedly, my favorite podcast ever. I don't want to have the follow-up spoiled by max linsky discussing it. So do like me give it a few days. I know that this is a hard show to describe because my wife is listening to it and just has been giving me updates and I thought it was set in Birmingham, Alabama the whole time. So clearly a confusion as possible. Let's get everything lined up properly. Very different show, very different show in Alabama than in the UK. We are brought to you in partnership with vox media who help us produce this show. Thank you to them. And now here's max with Brian Reed and Hamza Saad. Hamza,.

Brian Reed Brian Hamza Birmingham City council Birmingham England hansa max linsky Alabama vox media confusion UK Hamza Saad
Jordan's Former Prince Says He Will Not Obey House Arrest Restrictions

NEWS 88.7 Programming

00:58 sec | 1 year ago

Jordan's Former Prince Says He Will Not Obey House Arrest Restrictions

"Says he will not obey conditions of his house arrest. It's linked to allegations of conspiracy. The Jordanian government says it is detained up to 16 people in an alleged plot threatening the country's security. Outta Holmes. Reports Prince Honda denies being part of a foreign backed conspiracy but says that he has been targeted for criticizing the Jordanian government. Prince Hamzah, former heir to the throne and half brother to the King has released another communication in defiance of his house arrest. Reuters reports. It comes in the form of a voice recording disseminated by the country's opposition. In the note, he says he will not obey orders by the army to refrain from communicating with the outside world. He also said he would escalate his moves despite being barred from any actions that could be used to target Jordan's security. The government has accused Hamza of involvement in a quote, malicious plot to destabilize the kingdom's security for NPR news. I'm not a home see

Jordanian Government Outta Holmes Prince Honda Prince Hamzah Reuters King Army Hamza Jordan Npr News
Jordan's Government Foils Plot To Destabilize The Country

Dailycast News

00:27 sec | 1 year ago

Jordan's Government Foils Plot To Destabilize The Country

"Half brother and former hair of jordan's king abdullah prince hamzah collaborated with foreign parties over a plot to destabilize the country and has been under investigation for some time. The deputy prime minister said on sunday on saturday the military had issued a warning to the prince over actions targeting security and stability in the key. Us ally prince hamza later said he was under house arrest. Several high profile figures were also detained.

King Abdullah Prince Hamzah Jordan Prince Hamza United States
Senior Jordanian official: 'Malicious plot' was foiled by security

NPR News Now

00:50 sec | 1 year ago

Senior Jordanian official: 'Malicious plot' was foiled by security

"People have been arrested in a security sweep including several high profile figures not a helmsey reports. Deputy prime minister says authorities foiled a malicious plot. Deputy prime minister amen suffered he said former crown prince hamza hussein colluded with foreign parties to execute a quote malicious plot. Prince hamzah mobilized an extra opposition for acts. That would harm jordan's national security stuff. He said in a statement carried by jordan's state news agency. Prince hamza was placed under house arrest on saturday. While jordanian security officials arrested several high profile figures linked to the alleged plot. Those arrested include best. Amal dull former head of the royal court and hasn't been zayd a member of the royal family such crackdowns on royal and high ranking. Figures are highly unusual in the arab kingdom for npr

Prince Hamza Hussein Prince Hamzah Prince Hamza Amen Amal Dull Jordan Royal Court Zayd Arab Kingdom NPR
Jordan Says Plot Involving High-Profile Figures Is 'Totally Contained'

TED Radio Hour

00:57 sec | 1 year ago

Jordan Says Plot Involving High-Profile Figures Is 'Totally Contained'

"Deputy prime minister says a coup plot has been foiled and accuses former Crown Prince Hamza bin Hussein of working with foreign parties to destabilize the country. Several high profile figures have been arrested and are in custody and Amman based journalist Rana Sway, says Hamza, who was King Abdullah's half brother. Has released a video saying he's under house arrest. He said that all communication was cut off the Internet was cut off and that he his security was Revoked his security and his family's security as well. He talked about corruption in the country on the failure off reform on the deterioration of institutions and Jordan as well. The Biden administration has expressed support for King Abdullah Jordan is considered a rare spot of stability in the Middle East.

Crown Prince Hamza Bin Hussein Rana Sway Hamza Amman King Abdullah Biden Administration King Abdullah Jordan Jordan Middle East
Jordan king's half-brother accused in plot to 'destabilise' kingdom

TED Radio Hour

00:49 sec | 1 year ago

Jordan king's half-brother accused in plot to 'destabilise' kingdom

"From NPR news. I'm Barbara Klein, Jordan's deputy prime minister says a coup plot has been foiled and accuses former Crown Prince homes have been Hussein King Abdullah's half brother. Of working with foreign parties to destabilize the country. Journalist Rennes weighs in Amman says Hamza's released a video saying he's under house arrest, he said that all communication Was cut off the Internet tow us cut off and that he his security was revoked his security and his family's security as well. He talked about corruption in the country on the failure off reform on the deterioration of institutions and Jordan as well. Several

Npr News Barbara Klein Hussein King Abdullah Crown Prince Jordan Rennes Hamza Amman
Nearly 20 arrested in alleged plot against Jordan?s King

BTV Simulcast

00:30 sec | 1 year ago

Nearly 20 arrested in alleged plot against Jordan?s King

"Was on alert today after a serious of arrests were made following what may have been an attempt to destabilize the government of King Abdullah, the second Hassan Bin Zaid, a member of the royal family was held on security grounds along with several others, according to the state run Petra news agency. The army also asked former Crown Prince Hamza bin Hussein to cease quote, movements and activities that might be used to target Gordon Security and Stability in a video of the former Crown prince says he has been silenced.

Hassan Bin Zaid King Abdullah Crown Prince Hamza Bin Hussein Army Gordon Crown Prince
High-Profile Figures In Jordan Arrested For 'Security Reasons'

Radio Specials

00:53 sec | 1 year ago

High-Profile Figures In Jordan Arrested For 'Security Reasons'

"Figures in Jordan have been arrested for security reasons in the country's former Crown Prince says he's also under house arrest. There's not a home see reporting the half brother of Jordan's found. Douglas says he's under house arrest by Jordanian authorities in a video sent by satellite Internet to the BBC former Crown Prince Hamzah Benaissa and said he had been confined to his quarters and instructed not to communicate with anyone. Criticized Jordan's governance in the video side and corruption and incompetence. The army chief of staff denied reports that friends Hamza was under arrest in a statement carried by Jordanian state news. State News also reported a number of high profile arrests, including best Ahmadullah Close, confident to Jordan's King and shut It hasn't been Zaid, a member of the royal family. Such high profile arrests are unusual for the normally stable country for NPR news. I'm not a home, see in bay dudes and you're

Jordan Crown Prince Hamzah Benaissa Crown Prince Douglas BBC Hamza State News Army Zaid Npr News
14 on trial in 2015 Paris attacks that sparked terror wave

BBC World Service

00:51 sec | 2 years ago

14 on trial in 2015 Paris attacks that sparked terror wave

"Charlie Hebdo on a Jewish supermarket in Paris in 2015 3. Islamist gunmen killed 17 people in the two attacks from Paris his Lucy Williamson. Among those on trial today a men like Ali Hamza polder, accused of supplying weapons and equipment to both the Kouachi brothers on DH Ahmadi Coulibaly. If convicted of complicity, he faces a maximum sentence of life in prison. His co defendants are facing charges of terrorist financing handling, weapons and criminal terrorist association. Many of the key suspects died along with the perpetrators in police operations at the time of the attacks and others like Amedy Coulibaly is partner will be tried in absentia after slipping out of France to Iraq or Syria before the attacks took place. Australia has officially fallen into recession for the first time in 30 years.

Ahmadi Coulibaly Paris Ali Hamza Polder Terrorist Financing Lucy Williamson Charlie Hebdo Amedy Coulibaly Syria Partner Iraq Australia France
Loving-Kindness Breathing

The Daily Meditation Podcast

04:23 min | 2 years ago

Loving-Kindness Breathing

"I wanNA share with you as we continue with the journey of loving kindness. That I. received some questions in our private facebook group, which by the way is another way you can connect with other meditators. It's a free private facebook group called the daily Meditation Podcast Facebook Group. Will there I noticed recently too messages from people in the group who were saying that Meditation just doesn't work for them. They sometimes even feel worse from meditating. And these are people who are new to meditation and I remember experiencing the same situation. You might be new and wondering what's going on with meditation because you might not feel that great every time you sit down to meditate. This has to do with our theme this week of the Yomise. WIT You. Sit Down Meditate. Whatever you've been experiencing or feeling is why you bring to your cushion or your chair wherever you meditate. So, just as I mentioned that I like to share something uplifting with you before I guide you. In a technique. That's to help focus your thoughts in an uplifting way. If you're sitting down to meditate and you're frustrated. You've been tense you're feeling depressed or. Worried. Without releasing that energy or at least calming down these thoughts, I Hamza these negative thoughts? This is what you'll take with you. So you can even deepen that experience of negativity when you meditate if you don't release it I at least if you don't soften. So. That's why the meditation techniques are so valuable and I share a different one every day. Tuesdays it's always a breathing technique. So that's what you'll be guided through today. So, when you think about Your time meditating. Maybe think about. How you can. Get yourself primed. Can Begin to play soft music maybe an hour or so before you know you're going to sit down. Can you begin to calm down not have upsetting conversations or check the news or even messages? Can you begin to do some yoga and stretching that's yoga was created for Yoga was created. For Meditation It was created to calm your body. So that, your mind. Could also become as you meditate in stillness. So. Think about how you want to feel when you meditate and cultivate that feeling and don't think of it as I'm sitting here. Nothing's happening because if that is what you expect, that's likely not what you're going to get. Meditation is about giving. And one of the best ways to cultivate. Loving kindness. And to release the qualities of. Nonviolence. Not Harming others of the first Yama. is to Gif. That's why you're challenge. This week is loving kindness to share it in three ways. With yourself. Think right now for one. Loving. Kindness thought you can give yourself right now. Feel, yourself begin to soften. Now, think of someone to send loving kindness to it to that person right now.

Facebook Hamza Yomise
America readies for Iranian retaliation

Snap Judgment

00:44 sec | 2 years ago

America readies for Iranian retaliation

"The body of a runs military commander arrived in Iran Sunday general Qassem Soleimani was killed Friday in Iraq by U. S. drone strike a provincial commander of Iran's revolutionary guards says his country will punish Americans and American targets whenever they are in reach of the Islamic Republic NPR's D. hoodie reports general hello my level Hamza said Iran would talk Americans in retaliation for the killing of military commander Qassem Soleimani I will homes that the commander of the gods in the southern province of Kerr mon raise the prospect of possible attacks on ships in the Gulf he also said Iran has identified thirty five American targets in the region that are within their reach in addition to the Israeli city of Tel

Commander Iran Qassem Soleimani Iraq Hamza Kerr Mon Gulf U. S.
"hamza" Discussed on 106.1 FM WTKK

106.1 FM WTKK

01:31 min | 2 years ago

"hamza" Discussed on 106.1 FM WTKK

"Story starts July twelfth twenty year old Ali Hamza Maldonado Hernandez was arrested after a street race crash that killed in our again woman and severely injured her husband Mr Maldonado Hernandez was jailed on charges of felony manslaughter in the second degree felony assault in the third degree misdemeanor reckless driving added on Ali hung grow Maldonado Hernandez is in a legal immigrant on July sixteenth United States immigration and customs enforcement issued a detainer at the Washington County jail in Oregon so that if Maldonado Hernandez was granted bail he would immediately be taken into federal custody on August eighth Mister Hernandez was granted bail but the detainer issued by ice was ignored the Washington County sheriff's department says that federal ice detainer is are not lawful or enforceable in Oregon so this past Tuesday ice announced that investigators have learned it I'll come from Maldonado Hernandez fled to Mexico to avoid prosecution meaning that the felony manslaughter assault and reckless driving charges lodged against him are now on enforceable liberals in Washington County Oregon I've got to be very pleased they have raised the middle finger at their enemies the American people want immigration law enforced death and injury of American citizens yeah basically meaningless and liberals world these statements have not been.

Ali Hamza Maldonado Hernandez Oregon Mexico assault United States Washington County twenty year
Hamza Bin Laden: Trump confirms al-Qaeda leader's son is dead

Red Eye Radio

00:23 sec | 3 years ago

Hamza Bin Laden: Trump confirms al-Qaeda leader's son is dead

"One of Osama bin laden's sons is dead a White House statement saying that Osama bin laden's son Hamza died in a U. S. counterterrorism strike along the Afghan Pakistan border really says losing Hamzah bin laden deprives el Qaida of an important leader and the connection to his dead father U. S. navy seals killed the nine eleven attack leader Osama bin laden in his home during the Obama

Osama Bin Laden Hamza Barack Obama White House El Qaida U. S. Navy
Osama bin Laden's son Hamza is dead: White House

Under the Hood

00:50 sec | 3 years ago

Osama bin Laden's son Hamza is dead: White House

"The son of Osama bin laden the man behind the September eleventh terror attacks has been killed the White House is confirming the death of Haas Hamza's bin laden in a U. S. counterterrorism operation CBS as Charlie d'agata with more Hamza bey laden the younger bin laden had was already on his US state department's terror suspect list FOR calling it on attacks against the United States there is a one million dollar price on his head the even called him the crown prince of jihad that was after he released these messages calling for attacks on the U. S. U. S. interests and U. S. allies targets and that was in revenge of his father's death Israel's prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu is congratulating president trump via Twitter for the death of Hamzah bin laden Mr trump says the two leaders spoke today about a possible mutual defense

White House Haas Hamza CBS Charlie D'agata Hamza Bey Laden United States Israel Benjamin Netanyahu Twitter Mr Trump S. U. S. Prime Minister President Trump One Million Dollar
Trump confirms death of Osama bin Laden's son

Investing Sense

00:23 sec | 3 years ago

Trump confirms death of Osama bin Laden's son

"McCue the White House is confirming that the son of Osama bin laden is dead Hamza bin laden was killed in the counter terrorism strike carried out by US forces in the Afghanistan Pakistan border region the administration releasing a statement that reads in part Hamza bin laden's death quote undermines important operational activities of al Qaeda Osama bin laden was killed in the strike by navy seals back in

Mccue White House Hamza Bin Laden Osama Bin Laden United States
Osama Bin Laden, Pakistan And Hamza Bin Laden discussed on PBS NewsHour

PBS NewsHour

00:24 sec | 3 years ago

Osama Bin Laden, Pakistan And Hamza Bin Laden discussed on PBS NewsHour

"As an also declined again to address news reports that Osama bin laden's son Hamza bin laden is dead the reports say that he was killed within the last two years possibly in a U. S. air strike he was the apparent heir to his father's work with al Qaeda and was about thirty years old Osama bin laden was killed in a US raid in Pakistan in twenty

Osama Bin Laden Pakistan Hamza Bin Laden Thirty Years Two Years
Jared Kushner, New York Post And Hamza Bin Laden discussed on Mark Simone

Mark Simone

00:39 sec | 3 years ago

Jared Kushner, New York Post And Hamza Bin Laden discussed on Mark Simone

"Hey our condolences on what's his name Hamza bin laden yeah the son of a some of the homes of bin laden was what do we know what happened just that he's dead he's dead they say he could have risen up to be the next all kind of leader I I don't know anything about this I have a feeling Hamzah bin laden was like the Jared Kushner of this I have a feeling comes the problems it was going to rise up you would risen up already well I mean he has the name that's it on the New York Post had a a great headline on the star is said to say hello to your dad in hell yeah I would love to wipe them all out there in the movie that's nice to see them

Jared Kushner New York Post Hamza Bin Laden
Osama Bin Laden's son believed to be dead

KC O'Dea Show

00:33 sec | 3 years ago

Osama Bin Laden's son believed to be dead

"We don't have much detail what is believed one of Osama bin laden's sons is dead fox's Simon Ellen has more live day five months after the US announced a one million dollar reward for help finding hams that bin laden a US official tells fox news Hamza is believed to be dead and that the US had a hand in his desk but as to when and where and how he still to have died to get it now at this stage president trump has declined to comment the U. S. as previously described times a bin laden as an emerging leader in al Qaeda seeking to avenge his

Osama Bin Laden FOX Simon Ellen United States Official Hamza Donald Trump President Trump One Million Dollar Five Months
Osama Bin Laden's son killed

Charlie Parker

00:21 sec | 3 years ago

Osama Bin Laden's son killed

"Osama bin laden's son Hamza bin laden is reportedly dead but the circumstances surrounding his death are not known he was thought to be the possible successor to lead al queda after Osama bin laden was killed in a two thousand eleven U. S. navy seal rate in Pakistan earlier this year the state department put out a one million dollar reward for information about Hamzah bin laden's

Osama Bin Laden Hamza Bin Laden Al Queda Pakistan U. S. Navy One Million Dollar
"hamza" Discussed on Radio Free Nashville

Radio Free Nashville

01:55 min | 3 years ago

"hamza" Discussed on Radio Free Nashville

"I keep filming this union because me reason to be here getting this every day none of us had any idea hello doctor Hamza our old lives would be changed forever comes on I'm pregnant someone someone changes made this film for you and I need you to understand that and we were fighting for I love you so much for even more than the snow there's lots of air strikes right some I know you understand what's happening initial questions using your eyes you never cry like a normal day that's what breaks my heart hospital has been my daughters and some some will you ever forgive me that's the trailer.

Hamza
"hamza" Discussed on Radio Free Nashville

Radio Free Nashville

01:54 min | 3 years ago

"hamza" Discussed on Radio Free Nashville

"I keep filming this union because me reason to be here as for getting this every day none of us had any idea hello doctor Hamza our old lives would be changed forever comes I'm pregnant someone someone changes made this film for you and I need you to understand that and we were fighting for I love you so much for even more than the snow there's lots of air strikes right some I know you understand what's happening additional questions using your eyes you never cry like a normal day that's what breaks my heart hospital has been my daughters and some will you ever forgive me that's the trailer of the.

Hamza
"hamza" Discussed on WLS-AM 890

WLS-AM 890

01:53 min | 3 years ago

"hamza" Discussed on WLS-AM 890

"Hamza's mulling over another. Sanction. I guess against China. Thanks. When it comes to some tariffs that would be news next. First your Weather Channel, forecast showers and a front to our north west going to try to get here. We get into the afternoon Brian going to make it into the mid sixty sixty five sixty six temperatures actually follow the fifties later today. We'll shower threat, maybe a thunderstorm tonight. Occasional rain, showers, forty four cloudy on Tuesday with a high near fifty four north east breeze. So we may stay little cooler on the lakefront Chacha showers Wednesday with maybe some severe thunderstorms on Thursday. The Weather Channel urologist rates WLS seeming ninety with another update in thirty minutes. Six partly sunny skies at O'Hare. It's fifty downtown along the lakefront this hour sponsored by express services Inc. You work hard. You know, what it takes to succeed? Now, it's time to put your experience to work and launch your business. For a limited time express employment professionals. We'll give you twenty five thousand dollars to open your franchise. Get to know express. Visit express franchising dot com today. Stocks fell sharply here this morning following a sell off in Europe and Asia after President Trump threaten to ask you a trade war between the world's two largest economies and vassals avenue expecting the US and China to resolve their damaging trade dispute with the two sides set to meet this week in Washington hopes for an accord have contributed to the big run up in stock prices in the US and China so far this year right now. On Wall Street, the Dow is currently down two hundred twenty one points twenty six to eighty three the NASDAQ down seventy five SNP down twenty five tech sector taking a hit. Here. Apple down about two percent now Google down about. A third of a percent Microsoft down one percent. Former lawyer to President Trump Michael Cohen begins a three year sentence today for crimes including campaign finance violations, leaving his New York home this morning. He took another veiled swipe at the president and telling reporters, she had hopes for the nation beyond the next few years and.

President Trump Michael Cohen China president Weather Channel express services Inc Hamza US Apple Microsoft Google Brian New York Europe SNP Washington Asia twenty five thousand dollars
Search for Osama Bin Laden's son intensifies

Red Eye Radio

00:27 sec | 3 years ago

Search for Osama Bin Laden's son intensifies

"The US State Department says a one million dollar award is now being offered for information leading to the capture of Hamza bin Laden, the son of the late Al Qaeda leader officials say HAMAs influence has grown in recent years making him the most probable successor to lead a new version of Al Qaeda since the rise of ISIS international. Attention has generally moved away from al-qaeda, but American officials still see bin Laden's terror organization as determined adaptable and very

Hamza Bin Laden Bin Laden Us State Department Isis International Hamas Al-Qaeda One Million Dollar
"hamza" Discussed on Bloomberg Radio New York

Bloomberg Radio New York

07:04 min | 3 years ago

"hamza" Discussed on Bloomberg Radio New York

"In announcement from MCI that it's boosting the weighting of Chinese Stokes in its benchmarks. Speaking of which the MCI Asia Pacific index than higher by about two tenths of one percent. The Nikkei two to five index has been leading the way higher among the major indices as the Japanese yen is weakening the Nikkei shutting up shop run about two percentage point higher this morning futures for both the US and Europe are heading higher as well as impeach huges. Putting on most half of one percent at this point after what was a zero point three percent decline on Wall Street for this index last night. Note that global stocks they've largely been treading water while we also saw the ten year treasury yield trade within its Titus range since the nineteen seventy s last month. Something that will be talking about later on this morning this morning the ten year treasury yield traits. Little changed at two point seven one six percent. Elsewhere oil is poised to eke out a third weekly gain as evidence of OPEC counts and strengthening economic trends in the US signal tightening supplies. We're looking at WTI price this morning higher by about eight tenths of one percent at fifty seven dollars and sixty five cents. That's a Bloomberg radio. Business flash. Here is leeann guarantee with more on what's going on around the world. Thank you, Marcus. The US is offering a reward of up to one billion dollars for information about the son of the late Al Qaida leader Asama bin Laden, Hamza bin Laden is emerging as a key leader of the Islamic state. Militant group US special forces killed. Some of bin Laden in Pakistan in two thousand eleven he approved the nine eleven terrorist attacks in two thousand and one in which Nettie three thousand people were killed Shamima Begum and a newborn baby or thought to have been moved from his Syrian refugee camp after they with threatened Lewis as a teenager an infant son had left the camp in the north of the country to to safety consents Begum who fled from east London to to an Islamic state is a fifteen year old recently said she regretted speaking to the media and finding that is way less national assembly. President one guy dough is preparing to return to Caracas in the next few days despite threats from the government of nNcholas material. He's currently in Brazil trying to Trump support global news twenty four hours a day on Aaron it takes on Twitter powered by more than twenty seven hundred journalists listenable one hundred twenty countries, I'm young guarantees. This is Bloomberg Matt's. Leeann thank you so much for. That now let's get to tesla shares fell in late trading after he said he doesn't expect a profit in the current quarter. And he's got shutdown stores and probably fire his sales staff in order to get the price tag of his model. Three down to the target of thirty five thousand dollars for more. We're joined by Bloomberg editor, Dave mccombs. So Dave the model three price cut, and it has to be also said performance cut and likely reduction in interior, creature comforts and less technology at the same time. What's the significance of this? There's kind of two ways to look at it. You know, one is this is an example of Moscow, filling a promise big part of the Tesla's value. In one reason, it's traded where it does is that he's been able over the years to create this sort of reality distortion field, you know, the same tag that was given to Steve Jobs in that. He can present these targets and say, yes, we're going. To hit it. So this is a target that that had been missed for quite some time years of complaints that they would never be able to produce this car at thirty five thousand dollars and sell it for that much. And so now he's saying they are so he pays that off. But as you noted the performance is suffering, and there are questions as to whether they can manufacture the car at this price profitably now another way to look at it is that, you know, it also raises a question about demand and other thing that tesla has benefited from is this idea that they can sell cars as fast as they can make them. In fact, they can't make them fast enough to sell them. So that raises the question of, you know, why would you bringing the price down when you have overabundance of demand. Dave sorry to interrupt. But I'm just gonna wondering how investors are likely to take this news. Also of of musk protecting a quarterly loss hours that fitting into all of this. Well, it was a slight dip in the stock. But in after hours trading, it wasn't it wasn't huge. You know Alice had already been calling for a loss. If you look at what what was projected for that quarter. Even though musket been saying, yeah, we're we're going to make a profit. He wasn't wasn't able to convince a lot of the analysts. So it's not a huge shock. You know, at the same time that that sort of an admission also shows that, you know, a lot of the projections set that come out of must mouth are still not that reliable. Well, we should also point out. I like to look at the comp function to to see how shares compete with. Others in the space and with the index over the last five years. Tesla has underperformed. The Russell one thousand index and the consumer discretionary sub sub section of that. It's even underperformed General Motors, if you can believe it over the last five years, although handily beaten Ford. We'll cutting the dealerships out make a difference. I mean, clearly he's going to save costs if he stopped paying people that work there and stopped having to pay the lease. But won't it hurt sales as well in the long run. Sure. There's an expectation that it actually would and not not necessarily because they lacked for places to sell the cars themselves. There's always been a big online presence. It's always been the kind of brand and the kind of vehicle with the kind of buyers who are willing to shop around online before they actually go and look and try the car question about service. You know, if you if you do buy a tesla, the service package comes with it, of course, and the, you know, the maintenance dimension is less important than it would be for an internal combustion vehicle. But at the same time, it's if you're going to pay this kind of money for vehicle, you want to know that you can you can bring it tomorrow and have it serviced conveniently right is one of the big reasons that conventional car makers have a lot of dealerships. You know, they need that service. They actually make money on the service as well. Not necessarily the case for tesla. But it is important to have that presence. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the conventional comic is moving forward their positions. We're going to see a lot of electric vehicles being unveiled at the Geneva motor show next week, Bloomberg at it said, Dave mccombs. Thanks so much for joining us this morning to talk through the tesla story if only there were a place to plug all those electric vehicles in certainly in Germany, this serious shortage.

tesla Bloomberg Dave mccombs US Asama bin Laden Nikkei MCI Asia Pacific MCI Shamima Begum Hamza bin Laden OPEC Europe leeann Steve Jobs Caracas Germany late trading Marcus Twitter