20 Episode results for "Hamas"
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"Joe Seasonal behind the best. So you stuck with trees. All Sticky Abet Cyclic. Probably be more with the post taxes so we didn't know Hamas I saw the whole Damn Day without play.
Hummus: Dirt Helper, Repeat
"Hi I'm calling your host for the good news podcast and I'm neil the other host. The good news podcast is your source for good news. Fun Stories, auditory delight and Sonic Joy. We're bringing you all of this goodness from beautiful downtown Chicago Collie and do you like Hamas. I like. Red Flavor. Pepper Hamas, garlic Hamas you the original Hamad all? Unless. Yes I feel like and I call Hummus Hamas some Moose Basil like you can do kind of a Bazeley Pesto. Really good to. Try that we are Hamas lovers here at the good news. Bad. Yeah, you got to be I. Eat it all the time. Actually. I mean yeah, due to my wife. My lovely beautiful incredible wife makes fresh Hamas chat APP. Yeah, it's easy to make need to come live with you. Guys Tahini olive oil garlic. Next Chick is smashed together of just give you the whole recipe. Anyway Hamas is made from. Say it together. One two three Gar bonds Oh, being chickpeas, same thing at Garbanzo so much more fun to say. Though Garbanzo, so chickpeas are part of a family of craps called pulses, so that includes lentils, dry peas and some other beans. goons yeah, yeah, legumes, all legumes, legumes, legumes, coupons, coupons pulses are great, and this is new information to me so I'm sharing it with the colleen. Shang you listener, they grab nitrogen from the air around them and can store some of it back in the soil. Oh, yeah, so traditionally, when and this is again a very basic understanding of farming when you're planning something like wheat, you planted in the ground, and you need to potentially fertilize it in some way to add in some nitrogen, because the wheat has a harder time getting it on its own so. If you're cycling through, and you're planting chick peas or other pulses. The next thing you plant news cycle through to the next thing we'll have a much easier time, so you are helping to massage the soil back into a more ready state for the next crop. Our addiction to chickpea has meant that farmers are planning way more chickpeas than they previously have good, which is great for the soil, so we are eating Hamas planning more chickpeas, improving soil health across the entire country. It's the first time I are at. My consumption is actually helping there. I, think that might legitimately be true because I imagine on. My other consumption doesn't really help the earth. No, we'd probably do a lot more taking. Yeah, but it does seem like planning more chickpeas is in some ways. You know what I call this guilt. Free Summer, chick, PEA CHICKPEA winner. Said I'm calling it if you could create a brand new flavor of Hamas right here right now. What would you put in it and it would be good. No matter what you don't have to like it's. It's a mystical Hamas. Oh, I mean I was thinking like a meant a mental. Oh, that'd be great. Jelly. You could put on lamb chops can mix that in there. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. That's great. Yeah. I think that would work Bachchan. What are you thinking? I was imagining like you put some lemon in us. Sure Yep, so what if there were other kinds of citrus in there like a lemon lime lemon lime sprite? SPRITE? I was imagining oranges. Yeah, you could do oranges for sure. I'm not sure that they would taste good. I'm I think it might actually tastes bad. WHAT ABOUT PAMELA? Moose ooh free. Thanks for listening. Do you have good news incredible or maybe you WanNa? Tell us a joke or idea. Excellent. Email us at hello at the good news PODCASTS DOT FM. Or leave us a voicemail at seven, seven, three, two, one, seven, zero, one, five six. You can also tweet us at the Good News Pot and follow us on Instagram to, and if you love the good news, podcasts think about supporting us on our patriotic page. Most of our music is by putting bear.
Hummus: Where the Heart Is
"Hi, I'm Daniel and I'm more and we're here to tell you all about our brand new podcast. Daniel and Jorges explained the universe in this podcast. Gonna talk about a lot of things, mostly my physics and the universe in all those big mysteries scientists. A lot of things left to figure out even pretty basic stuff like what is space? What is time? What is stuff made out of which movie gets time travel. Right. That's an important question scientist. Are we alone in the universe? What is a black hole anyway, with inside a black hole, that's bad. It's mostly me and hor horrific on stuff. We find fun and fascinating and hilarious. Look for Daniela more, hey, explained the universe. We'll try to cover just about everything in the universe, everything every dollar shebang. The whole shebang from cats do planets to black holes and tiny parties. Hello and welcome to save her. I've and I'm Laurin. Polka palm. And today we're talking about HAMAs. Yes, how miss I love some HAMAs. Do you like, oh, I love HAMAs. It has ruined many by many. I mean to I, what did you do? Because I carry with me always a many toothbrush and a mini toothpaste. Okay. But I always lose it like it's on my person now and I guarantee you try to find it. I wouldn't be able to find it until it was too late. All right. So I'd had some HAMAs and as embarrassed to admit because it's first date. I got really bad breath friend and I kind of want to be away from you. Don't wanna kiss you or like the up on you and it turned into a whole argument one time. Well, turned into Olsen. I'm sorry this. Okay. I think that's a clear sign wasn't meant to be. Yeah. No. If you can't get over the HAMAs breath, then. Yeah. And then once I was at a fancy restaurant on a date and I was leaping from the restaurant going straight to the airport, going out of the country or something, and I had in my purse some helmets at gone bad at a whole mold thing happening, and I wanted to throw it away in a public garbage can and not in my home and it turns out I couldn't find a public guards can't anywhere. So you were trying to board a plane with a gyro. The valet peace only looking around trying to find a trash can and it became a scene. Everyone came out wanted to know what HAMAs was. Why? What was I just carrying it around? Where was I going. But eventually one of the waiters came and he found a place that they're away from me. All. That's very good. I can't say that I've ever had such a exciting moment in my life that was having spaced. But while we were in Asheville recently, a bunch of the people that we were talking to mentioned, there's a very large and successful HAMAs brand, yes, called Reuss. And one of the most Astro things we heard, there's this homeless brand has, hey tesla at they drive around. That's painted decorated in, yeah, as one of their jars of HAMAs. So big, yellow tesla HAMAs vehicle, which right is about the most ashville thing. We could possibly imagine. It was and we thought we would include a quote from food critic Asha food critic, Ken Zealand's verd- about this, this tesla and the people behind roots summit guy. You started making. Homicides route Thomas in a closet and in the course of twelve years, gone from two hundred square feet to twenty seven thousand square feet warehouse with like this is so ashville, but they're building an observation deck so you can walk and watch them make the HAMAs you know, yeah, three million dollar facility, you know, they're starting to build their shipping line there. You know, they have the tesla, it's painted yellow, and they drive to solar Expos and give away little bits of HAMAs. That's pretty cool. Success story. Absolutely. And coming off of that, not necessarily off of your personal tragedies. We wanna do this episode on HAMAs which brings us to question. What is well? How is a spread or dip that's made from cooked period? Chickpeas also called Carbonneau beans. Plus a number of seasonings lemon juice, fresh garlic, salt and tahini are the basics. Yeah. And the word HAMAs comes from the air bec- word meaning chickpea, which makes sense for that reason though, in the Middle East, it's called Humby tahini which is chickpea with tahini because you're not just going to say chickpea. Right? Not the same thing. No, and we will have to do a whole episode on chickpeas someday. But in the meanwhile to Heaney tahini is a seed butter, sorta like almond butter but made with sesame seeds, usually, which have been holed and toasted before being ground into a smooth saucer paste. And so the basic result when you combine those chickpeas tahini in the lemon, garlic and salt is a spread that's a savory a little bit Tang you with a sort of sweet earthy kind of undertone and when is made well, it is just dreamy smooth and light on the tongue. So dreamy of sounds like how in my diary described my crush. Food light on the time. But who strangely enough, you wouldn't want to have tried to kiss exacerbating hones- paradox the paradox it's addition made throughout the Middle East and the southern in western areas of the Mediterranean. And there are as many recipes for HAMAs as there are folks who make it, which is basically everyone Israelis often at cumin and like a lot of tahini the Lebanese may use paprika and maybe a little bit of olive oil, or, you know, at least a drizzled upon serving Palestinians often eat it for breakfast alongside the earthy fresh urban spice mix as tar and as it spread to other cultures around the world folks made HAMAs with all sorts of ingredients from other legumes, like Fava beans and Egypt, or even in the west with Alec winter squash, like pumpkin or sweet potatoes, and then all sorts of additions and flavorings from olives to Sabi, to Guatemala to pizza pizza flavorings. He's flavorings pizza like. I haven't seen it personally. I wouldn't be surprised if someone put on a pizza somewhere. I wouldn't either. Probably definitely that's happened. This is bringing back memories for me of, I think it was a fad anyway. It was really popular a couple years ago to make sweet HAMAs like he would use chick peas and put chips in it. And it was like a healthy chocolate chip dip, and I made it and it was good. But that was a really popular thing for a while anyway. I try not to, oh, who am? I kidding? I don't try not to judge that hard, but I had try it sure is pretty good. I'm going to say it's pretty good. And the reason this was a fad is because of do Trish in it was perceived as a healthier dessert, which is what we're talking about now, HAMAs who Tricia at its root. It's pretty healthy. It's a good source of protein fiber and folic acid. Britain's national health service recommends it for pregnant women. Once you start adding in stuff though, like maybe a slice of pizza, and then I. If you what you using the dip with it, maybe as lies of pizza, then your mileage may vary depending on how you make it. It's probably either low in fat or rich in good fats. It's got some late vitamins, k and c. plus zinc iron. Magnesium, it's a pretty good substitute for heavier more processed snacks and great for adding flavor to sandwiches and wraps without adding a lot of calories. A study published in the journal of nutrition and food sciences found the people who eat chick peas and or HAMAs have better overall diet quality and lower rates of obesity and lower rates of elevated glucose homicides are healthier. You're here folks that being said, like, donate a whole tub. I mean, you know, pay attention to your serving sizes, always friends, bats, pretty good for you, especially if you serve it with some fresh veg-. Maybe some pickles, a crackers, breads that are baked instead of fried it shows up frequently at our DND session. Oh yeah. Oh, yes. It is believed to be by some. Afridis. Surprise surprise some even say it's the Queen of aphrodisiac, wow, the Queen. It also can allegedly be convincing coffee substitute. I have my doubts, but I would try it. I would HAMAs HAMAs I think, well, some type of like roasted be situation. The face is making his not good, but I, I read that it can be passable as coffee and that I should try it. Oh insight shell, but not currently because we're podcasting, yes, HAMAs numbers. Okay. So homies has experienced quite a bit of growth in the US in twenty sixteen the US HAMAs market was valued at seven hundred twenty five million that's up from five million in nineteen ninety-five. According to estimates twenty five percent of Americans had HAMAs in their fridges that year. But and these numbers are also from 2016. Another quarter of Americans had no idea what HAMAs was really. Yeah, had never heard of it. I guess I can see that. I hadn't heard of it until a couple of years ago. A couple of years, meaning college, I heard of it in college. Yeah, I don't think that I knew what it was until I was in college. Yeah, because I was from a small town and that town is a college town, and it has grown. Lot. But when I was there like it was news, the WalMart opened, I remember, oh my gosh, we want to drive forty five minutes to get to a store what news. So there was no homeless. What I'm saying. I do not grow up with either the big brand of HAMAs Sabra in the business in the food industry business it seen as an incredible success story. Yeah, over the space of eight years Sabra went from less than ten percent of the market to over sixty percent, which is just remarkable growth. And part of the driver behind this growth was the way the company went about marketing because the average American didn't know much about HAMAs. So Sabah's set out to change that they kind of had to because otherwise who's gonna buy their product. One of their first commercials featured a well to do husband and wife watching the sunset, drinking wine, eating HAMAs laughing about how they don't have to go to the metric and because they had all the makings right, and then crash something flies the window behind them in Linz and their HAMAs. They look around. And they storm inside and there's a big what looks to be high school party happening, and their son appears with something like a lampshade. I know some kind of stereotypical party thing. I've Ning and he said, your parents in the Mediterranean. Well, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. And then in the two thousand, they launched a taste intervention. And this was like, you could enter a friend online who needs an intervention because they don't know what food is. And it was pretty popular and it became the official dip of the NFL and the two, thousands and I imagined I didn't find anything saying this anywhere, but I imagined the popularity of the Mediterranean diet helped boost sales of HAMAs labral homeless as well short. Sure. Let's more emphasis on high-protein kind of diets happening around that time from two thousand two thousand ten. The United States switched from exporting ninety percent of chickpeas to just forty percent because of this increased interest in HAMAs. Wow. And there is a HAMAs rap. There's a rep Ray every food. These. There is indeed this one is from two thousand eight and it currently has about three million views on YouTube. It's called HAMAs colon, the rep straight to the point. Yeah, it's by one. A Remmy moon is safety. Who is a Virginia songwriter who performs as Habib Abdul, Habib and restricting our head wordlessly because it's a thing of beauty. It is. He plays to chickpea cans like Bongos. The down so much brand you think has been good luck. The next pick checking the bench about some breadsticks pumice is really popular in Britain to in twenty eleven. They were going through twelve thousand tons of HAMAs year. Forty percent. British folks have it in their fridge, which is double the amount of the rest of Europe by the way, and this is pretty impressive. Since grocery stores didn't start stocking HAMAs until the nineteen eighties were coming to an end. There's a lot of pieces about why it's so popular in Britain there really are. And nowadays people are big fans of HAMAs. There's a movie appropriately called HAMAs exclamation point, the movie they are. There are podcast. We are one of them. The flavor variety now includes chocolate and peanut butter, and this is not just people making it at home. This is like, Sarah, has you know? Yeah. Yeah. These are grocery store mass produced brands in twenty fifteen Sabir recalled thirty thousand cases of HAMAs due to possible. The stereo contamination, but really didn't flow down the HAMAs strain too much now. And of course, HAMAs has broken a world record. Of course, the Guinness world record for largest dish of HAMAs was awarded in twenty ten. The dish made by three hundred cooks in Lebanon weighed twenty three thousand pounds that comes out to eight tons of chick peas. One hundred fifty, five pounds of all oil, two tons. Each of lemon juice and heating, and that's actually kind of an important historical event that we're going to return to. Oh yeah, that one comes back. But if you don't have access to massive dish of HAMAs, you can make your own so easily and cheaply at home. Yeah. All you've really gotta do is get the stuff in blended together. One of my favorite recipe tinkerers one j. Kenji Lopez. Alt- over at serious eats, recommends processing the lemon juice and garlic together I though 'cause the acid of the lemon will prevent the garlic from producing so much. Of the hot pungent compound Allison, which is that kind of Bernie flavor. That Bernie flavor is a compound that's only created in garlic when it is crushed or chopped and it cell walls are disrupted. So the acid in the lemon stops that enzyme responsible for making it happen anyway. Beyond that, there are a lot of tips and tricks for HAMAs making dried chick peas versus canned how to remove some of the chick pea skins for up to m- smoothness. And yeah, lots of recipes online, different styles, Google around find what you like. Yeah, that's so fun about it is you can customize it and it is one of my go-to. It is typically eaten more as a snack or an appetizer in the United States. But in places like the Middle East or in the Mediterranean, it is much more than that, and it has been for some time and we'll get into the history. But first we're gonna pause for quick break for from our sponsor. Today's show is brought to you by left-field farms, left field farms as refreshingly new dairy brand founded on a left field, but just let the cow do. It's thing. Let field farms goes the extra mile to care for the cows before cows can do cow things like make delicious milk and Creamer. They need to be comfortable with shade, plenty of water and an environment where they're free to just be cows that the kindness doesn't stop there. You think you're at a cow spa getting line for goat massage, left-field farms, partners with family farms for high quality milk, so they can trace their milk back to every farm. Left-field farms really knows how to pamper their cows and offer a simpler diet with only non GMO meals on their menu. If that is a concern for you, all this makes for delicious milk and coffee Creamer left-field farms, wonderful things come out of left field. And we're back. Thank you sponsor. Yes, thank you. HAMAs has probably been around a long time. Yeah, and probably was invented in several different places independently. It's the source of much modern day tension, but we do know a bit more about chickpeas, even if we don't know about when the first human to enjoy some HAMAs briefly chickpeas, probably originated in Asia and cultivated as far back as seven thousand years ago, they were especially popular in India and the Mediterranean. The first recorded recipe for this, maybe depending on your definition appeared in cookbooks, out of Egypt and Syria from the thirteenth century. However, the recipe out of Syria didn't clued to Heaney. So some historians dismiss it as not HAMAs. However, the first recorded recipe Ford to Heaney does also come out of thirteenth century cookbooks. Maybe they were combined. Maybe they weren't. Maybe still some historians say that without the limiting garlic, the Egyptian recipe doesn't count either potentially. HAMAs was mentioned earlier in the book of Ruth, which is the final section of the Hebrew bible quote, come hither and eat of the bread and dip Di morsel in the hunts. However, these are modern times the Hebrew word humming means vinegar, which would not be as tasty or particularly hospitable, which is like the point of the passage. So there's still some doubt, still some doubt. Greece also likes to lay claim to HAMAs. They had a pretty close treating relationship with Egypt. So it's likely they're traitors HAMAs back from Egypt and they started making it in their own country. If our definition of HAMAs does call for those four ingredients, chickpeas lemon garlic into Heaney. Then the first written record doesn't come along until the eighteenth century out of Damascus Syria. However, since they were so close. To if you define it as needing all of these things in those thirteenth century, recipe's ingredients were all around for well, over a thousand years, someone probably came up with the idea to combine all of those things before this. Yeah, maybe maybe they just didn't read it down. Yeah, maybe it was so con- please. Even considered ever like, yeah, that's just what you do. That's obvious. We don't need to write that down. We're too busy eating it to talk about it, whatever the case by nineteen fifties. Israel HAMAs was an everyday food item doing part to the fact that the is really army served it in their mess halls. It would go on become this sort of hip sort of masculine food in that country entire subculture developed around it. Also in the nineteen fifties. We got the first known written mentions of HAMAs in English by Elizabeth David, a British cookery writer cookery just meaning food writer, but in the most British way possible. Oh yes. She talked about it in her nineteen fifty five book Mediterranean food and HAMAs is kind of associated with hippies, but I can't find strong evidence that it was kicking around in the United States until like the late seventies. I think it certainly would have been accepted by those counterculture vegetarian communities. But I think it came to the English speaking world a little bit later than things like tofu and perhaps through like increased tourism. To the Mediterranean in the nineteen seventies. Yeah, I wonder hippie connotation has more to do with now. It's seen as a very vegetarian vegan thing that you can eat instead of animal protein, right? Which fits in with the whole movement of the time, but right, right. Interesting. Rabbi Yehuda hurl launched Sabra in nineteen eighty six Pepsi Co. would purchase half of it in two thousand six to co, run it with Strauss, and they had purchased Stacy's pita chips and they saw the combo of Sabra with these pita chips as the premium Chippendale-type situation. I had never really considered as chip and dip, but I suppose yeah, and especially by like I think the early two thousands were peak ship and dip few Tiffen dip. Oh, man. I have a very strong every of watching school. Watching. I know what you did last summer and eating it entire tub of French onion, did with lease chips, and I really had no concerns about my health back then you were just living the life. Also, I love so much that you can trace every horror movie or track every horror movie to what you're eating at the time. I do have very strong or movie and food memories. I could do entire series on it. I remember what I ate this when I was watching biz movie anyway, we should make plug. Oh, can we? We're going to look into that later. But now we have about arrived at the source of tension in the Middle East that HAMAs kind of causes or as a part of that we mentioned at the top. Yes, all all this modern history of HAMAs. But first we're going to take one more quick break for word from our sponsor. Today's show is brought to you by left-field farms, left field farms as refreshingly new dairy brand founded on a left field, but just let the cow do its thing. The field farms goes the extra mile to care for the cows before cows can do cow things like make delicious milk and Creamer. They need to be comfortable with shade, plenty of water and an environment where they're free to just be cows that the kindness doesn't stop there. You think you're at a cow spa getting line for goat massage, left-field farms, partners with family farms for high quality milk, so they can trace their milk back to every farm. Left-field farms really knows how to pamper their cows and offer a simpler diet with only non GMO meals on their menu. If that is a concern for you, all this makes for delicious milk and coffee Creamer left-field farms, wonderful things come out of left field. And we're back. Thank you sponsor. Thank you. This brings us to two thousand eight in the beginning of the humming wars. The two main players in this war are Lebanon and Israel and the fight is over which country can lay claim to inventing HAMAs. Lebanon believes that HAMAs is their invention and their cultural heritage, and they blame Israel for profiting off of HAMAs monetarily. But also culturally when it comes to world exposure. And this is because of how HAMAs is marketed throughout most of the west as an Israeli food. So Lebanon went to the EU the European Union demanding that they formally recognize HAMAs as Lebanese giving it protected status Imler to champagne France. The EU turned their petition down. This whole campaign was called hands off our dishes by the way, enter. Lebanon's first record breaking giant plate of HAMAs into thousand nine. It was about forty four hundred pounds. That's about two thousand kilograms of HAMAs. It was a HAMAs and the idea was the brainchild of Lebanon's minister of tourism fuddy Abboud he said, I thought the best way to tell the world that the HAMAs is Lebanese is to break the Guinness Book of records. So yes, this was a strategic move in the HAMAs wars. And yes, I said, I I record breaking giant plate of HAMAs because Israel countered with their own record, breaking HAMAs served not just in a dish, but a satellite dish. And this was eight thousand nine hundred ninety three pounds of HAMAs or about four thousand seventy nine kilograms down, but not out Lebanon fired back in twenty ten with the current record holder. The event was called HAMAs and Bouli are one hundred percent Lebanese. I like it straight to the point in Israel. Food journalists called HAMAs a symbol of all the tension in the Middle East who Palestine got into the fray to claiming that humming is their tradition when visiting Palestine has been compared to getting pizza in Rome. So that's one of the first things you do. Find good HAMAs restaurant, and Palestine is a tradition to make it early in have with your family on Fridays. One restaurant owner in Palestine says the key ingredient that makes the difference in types of HAMAs is noth- the Arabic word for soul. Food is story and Charles period thinks that bay ru is a solid second when it comes to the question of who invented Thomas. But first he thinks goes to Damascus, Syria, and the reason has to do with the red clay bowl that HAMAs is traditionally served in as it's raised edge to facilitate the whipping of chickpeas in HAMAs. And to him, this means that HAMAs was a more recent invention. Action and one invented in a city. Damascus was the biggest city in the region. If he's right, this means we would have to revise up HAMAs invention to the eighteenth century, which was way later than that first recipe that was pretty close that we mentioned Orrin Rosenfield director of HAMAs. The movie thinks we need to call an end to the HAMAs war quote HAMAs is a Middle Eastern food claimed by all owned by none as of twenty thirteen Israeli dancer choreographer hill Cogan debuted this highly sardonic and farcical play about modern dance and Israel, Palestine relations and HAMAs, and it's called, we love Arabs, who I I had a chance to see it at Emory's exposed festival back in two thousand sixteen it's two men show about the ignorant and egotistical. Israeli director hiring Palestinian dancer and choreographing. This piece that the director thinks is like all like edgy and it's diversity in. Inclusion, but it is such a mess. And the show ends spoiler alert with these two men bonding over HAMAs like kind of despite themselves and they like literally spread HAMAs on each other's faces. It's it's held up as the possible glue between their cultures. Oh. That's so sweet. It really was very hopeful. Very, an NPR article. I read kind of touches on a similar thing. It describes the tension surrounding HAMAs in the Middle East and one person they interviewed from Israel said eating Palestinian HAMAS was political because its knowledge ING. It's existed, and the article goes on to describe the fraught journey to a refugee camp in Israel, one hundred thirty thousand people using the same road traffic is awful. There's a real fear that you might be shot or that a bomb will go off, but along the road food benders pop up and some of them sell HAMAs. Another person interviewed in this article said of the journey. Suddenly you're not a human being. The kitchen of the checkpoint is really crucial to connect people together as human beings. And another person said, HAMAs and philophical food is maybe the only thing that gets people to sit together and one thing that everyone does seem to agree on is. Is that fresh made HAMAs best and that the ingredients that supermarket brands add are not ideal? Nope. Blasphemous even in a BBC article, Isreaeli tour guide gnome. Yes. Steve said that's not HAMAs. There should be a sign on that HAMAs the way there's a sign on kosher shrimp. It should be labeled fake HAMAs. There should be an international law. Opinions. I love it still. It will take more than HAMAs to work through this tension in the Middle East. But the shared experience history and inheritance of food is a lovely place to start. Yeah, I wasn't expecting HAMAs to to to take you there to get so political. But it did. It's beautiful fraught with tension very much and to Heaney and he ne- engine into Uni, be a play as well. It writes it self. So this is our HAMAs episode and it brings us to listen male. Sa- firework. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we won't have a listener mail in every episode now, but, but all of these studio episodes we're going to, you know, because you guys send us lovely things about your lives and stuff, and we wanna read them. Yes. And Michaela does a very lovely thing about our lives and stuff Shiro. I grew up just forty five minutes from Austin, Minnesota and frequented. The spam museum often, we had to expose my out of state brothers in law to the whacking that is span much like the town of Hershey, Pennsylvania, which ironically, I in hell live forty, five minutes room is to the Hershey chocolate plant. Awesome. And a soda is to all things spam. It also pays a nod to battle creek Michigan and the Amasi they pay to Kellogg's. The museum is a delightfully playful place where you can find all the history of spam and how it aided the war efforts, which you highlighted in your episode. You can hear and see accounts and pictures of the soldiers experience. And to an extent their frustration with only having spam to eat at various times as well as play a game where you dress up, like a factory worker and try to package played cans of spam. Placing a beanbag into plastic spam can Dhabi and putting a stretchy fabrics leave around the goodness, and then comparing how many cans of spam the factory was able to fill in the time that it took you to fill label six of your play cats. You can also find yourself in the lobby where there is an entire wall Kansas fan to give you a visual of how many cans are produced in a given amount of time. The museum holds fond memories for me and I strongly encourage anyone to visit it. If that is the kind of sightseeing you like to do. I also under eight to you about an experience I had with a McDonald's when my husband and I traveled to Norway last may we had a four hour drive from the airport to our destination, and it was evening before we had left the states. We had printed Google map instructions on how. To get to our destination because we're not sure if our GPS on our phones would work how we want it. Before we left for Norway, we made the decision then order to fully experience the culture. We didn't wanna eat any fast food restaurants or chains. We were hoping to be able to find something along our route to stop for supper. Boy, were we in Italy getting while we had our Google map instructions. We didn't have any other way to know how to get back to our route. If we were destroyed from our instructions being somewhat naive, American tours, we were, we didn't realise that Norway would not be like the US and that there would be places to turn off just off the highway. We had gone about three hours which is about APM at this point and we still had not found a place to eat. We were so hungry. Finally said that the next thing we saw that would possibly have food, even if it was a gas station, we would stop and get something about ten minutes later, we saw the shining lights of those gold and arts. We started laughing. Thought of traveling, nine hours across the ocean just to have her first meal be McDonald. We went in, I was termined to get anything that wasn't something I could get at an American McDonald's. As I knew previously, that menu items would change depending on the country in which it was located. I saw chicken sandwich that was not described as it in the states and decided that that was what I would order. I was pleasantly surprised to find out. It was nothing like the chicken sandwiches here in the states is very flavorful and the sauce they had on it actually made it taste more like a Taco Bell taco than a chicken sandwich. It was certainly not what we expected from our trip to Norway, but it sure provided a great memory cautionary to everyone can't just turn up. Nope. Nope, that's a American thing. Actually, I don't know. Have you seen that in other places? Usually you can, but it is maybe not as close right off the road. The starkest experience I have this was in Australia where I remember seeing a sign that said next Doney which is toil. It eight hundred kilometers. Oh, oh, heck I was out in the middle of nowhere though. Yeah, it's always worth investigating. But this is a very funny story. Definitely something I would have done. Oh, yeah. No, no, no, not necessarily. Milton wrote, I'm from Honduras where pregnant women are known to crave green unripe. Mangoes was salt cumin, black pepper a little lime juice and sometimes hot sauce. This is a pretty typical craving for Latin American countries. There are countless stories of husbands being woken up at midnight because of this craving. I love specific. That is. Yeah. Yeah, because we just did our pickles episode and mentioned in that that we wanted to hear the stereotype of what pregnant women craven other countries because in the US it's pickles and ice cream. Right. That combination specifically? Yes. It's the source of many jokes. I've seen it all kinds of movies. I love this one because it is so specific. Yeah, hope cumin. Up for. I mean, but green mangoes with hot sauce. I mean, that's ounce delicious. It does. I wanna try it. Yeah, I absolutely want to try it. If there are any other pregnant food cravings from around the world police in those in, please keep telling us about the span museum because it sounds awesome. Oh yeah. Yeah, we've gotten to postcards from so far and owed is always so delightful. Thank you. Get spammed chapstick. Oh, yeah. Does not spam flavored? No, just span labeled. It's bright. I think it's vanilla. I haven't put mine on yet. I have literally. Okay. I'm a big chapstick aficionado. But we would love to hear about any of those things or anything else, especially where we should go to and you can send those emails to Hello at saver pod dot com. We are also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at saver pod. We hope to hear from you. Thank you as always to super producer, Dylan, Fagin, thank you for listening and we hope that lots more things are coming your way. Hi, I'm Daniel and I'm more and we're here to tell you all about our brand new podcast. Daniel and Horry explained the universe in this podcast. Gonna talk about a lot of things mostly about physics and the universe, and all those big mysteries scientists. A lot of things left to figure out even pretty basic stuff like what is space? What is time? What is stuff made out of which movie gets time travel. Right? That's an important question. Scientists. Are we alone in the universe? What is a black hole anyway with inside a black hole. That's what about it's mostly me for, hey, riffing on stuff. We find fun and fascinating and hilarious. Look for Daniel and more, hey, explained the universe. We'll try to cover just about everything in the universe. Everything every the whole shebang from cats do planets do black holes and tiny parties.
Hummus: Tasty and Nutritious (For Dirt Too!)
"Hi I'm calling your host for the good news podcast. I'm neil the other host the good news podcast is your source for Good News Fun Stories Auditory Delight and Sonic Joy. We're bringing. We knew all of this goodness from beautiful downtown Chicago Colleen. Do you like Hamas. Do I like Rodney Brit Flavor Pepper Hamas garlic comments just you the original Hamad I like all militias I feel like and I call it Hummus Hamas some Moose Basil like you can do like kind of a Basil Pesto and that's really good to try that we are. Hamas lovers here at the good news back yeah you got to be. I eat it all the time. Actually I mean yeah due to my wife. My lovely beautiful incredible wife Makes Fresh M._S.. Yeah it's easy to make I need to come and live with you. Guys Tahini <hes> olive oil garlic next chick is smashed together. I'll just give you the whole recipe anyway. Hamas is made from say together. One two three garbanzo beans chickpeas same thing okay Ed Garbanzo so much more fun to say though Garbanzo so chickpeas are part of a family of craps called pulses so that includes lentils dry peas and some other beans pulses. goons yeah yes legumes all lagoons legumes legumes coupons coupons pulses are great and this is new information to me so I'm sharing it with you. Colleen Shang with you listener they grab abn nitrogen from the air around them and can store some of it back in the soil so traditionally when and this is again a very basic understanding of <hes> farming when you're planning something like wheat you planted in the ground and you need to potentially fertilize it in some way to add in some nitrogen because the wheat has a harder time getting it on its own if you're cycling through and. You're planting chickpeas or other pulses. The next thing you plant cycle through to the next thing we'll have a much easier time so you are helping to massage the soil back into a more ready state for the next crop. Our addiction to chickpea has meant that farmers are planning way more chickpeas than they previously have good which is great for the soil so we are eating Hamas planning more chick peas improving soil health off across the entire country. It's the first time are my consumption is actually helping there. I think that might legitimately be true because I imagine all my other consumption doesn't really help the earth. No We'd probably do a lot more taking yeah. Yeah but it does seem like planning chickpeas is in some ways. You know what I call this guilt free summer chick PEA CHICKPEA winner. That's what I'm calling it. If you could create a brand new flavor of Hamas right here right now now what would you put in it and it would be good no matter what you don't have to like. It's it's a mystical on us. Oh I mean I was thinking like I meant. I meant ooh that'd be great. Yeah that Mint Jelly the <hes> you could put on lamb chops. What could mix that in there yeah? That's what I was thinking. That's great yeah. I think that would work basis. What are you thinking? I was imagining like you put some lemon in Hamas Sherry. So what if there were other kinds of citrus. In there like a lime lemon lime lemon lime sprite sprite. I was imagining oranges. Yeah you could do oranges for sure. I'm not sure that I would taste good. I think it might actually taste bad what about hampel Moose ooh grip free. Thanks for listening. Do you have good news incredible or maybe WanNa tell us a joke or idea excellent email us at hello at the good news podcasts dot <hes> f._m.. Or leaves voicemail at seven seven three two one seven zero one five six you can also tweet us at the Good News Pot and follow us on instagram too and if you love the good news podcasts think about supporting us on our.
Enflamme S#2 ep#2 Odes de Magali
"The. Tape. took. Control. took. A. took. was. Flu Revia. Putting put guests for letting Mortgaga most Don. Cubano podcast phone. You Ski is rule whom Seville feel has draw-. Now made does Shawn Sale? Through the Hamas dispels on a disguise. Oh, senior prom. Coupon. Take. phys combat eighteen have. Given it. Was At. The. Queued shows me say kid. Geldenhuys could twist. To Nicklaus. SUV on it. That zones the new suggests it off. Want. To. EARN. ooh. Career. I guess thought I, said. City of. God took. took. took.
Like It or Spike It Takes Over Jerry's Update
"New Year's resolutions are hard but the exciting new year. New GIG sale is easy waking up the kids after a long winter break heart but getting gig speed Internet so you can stream surfing game all at wants easy committing to a twenty years diet hard but finding your favorites on Xfinity X. One the easiest on one entertainment experience just by speaking into the voice remote easy. It's the infinity New Year new gig sale and it simple easy awesome to learn more go to insperity dot com. Call one eight hundred xfinity or visit a store today. Restrictions apply not available in all areas. Laura go on the fan across the country on CBS sports network. I somehow in the break totally forgot how to put the ear buds in my ears you got them on. Upside down goes around the year. Yeah I understand. It's easier to fit right in your ear perfectly. Go upside down like that with the left ear left here in the right here in the writer. That's that's guy. Got It now. You know often the the Sabra Hamas commercial for the super right right. Yes yes yes yes I. I couldn't so yesterday they put out a whole social media thing around my portion of it and I'm in the In my portion and with Charlie Demilio I think her name is who is a tick tock sensation and I this this whole thing this whole okay. boomer I guess insult towards my generation is actually working for me. Yeah official says in a commercial to me as I'm dipping my Pretzels into my homies. That's right I didn't even realize pretzels and Hamas went together until I sat there normally. I'm a salary and Hamas guy but let's give it a shot so I only ate about twenty of them and you know and she she he looks at me and goes okay boomer. It's amazing because basically okay boomer is F- awful man take Hamas awesome. You know he called me wherever you want. What did you tell me about your thirteen year? Old Niece by thirteen year old niece who has no interest. Obviously in this show is now wants to meet you because Hugh met the Tick Tock. Yeah Gal Commercial Jar because you did she take forever to get ready or something. I wasn't heard wasn't it was so there's a number of like influencing celebrities that are in this commercial and it's like one after the next and There was one ti- pains in it. I think and okay and then there was one gal that was in it and she came with like an offensive line of bodyguards. That no and I'm like what is this and that took a while to swipe a sit there for five hours to do my five seconds on air because you know she had to get done in the way they had. The whole studio setup was amazing because each of us sit in a monochromatic color room so my room happens to be read. So I'm wearing red in a red room. I think this guy was wearing yellow yellow. Okay so I guess yellow and red. I guess it's harder to get yellow to look. I don't know were you one take boomer or did you drive them. Nuts always one take but maybe do twenty eight climbing CBS sport. That's that's early in the morning. Then right shut up we've got fifteen to Tonga of Lilo. Yeah you you try to do that at five fifteen in the morning. Sure I'll take all right Jerry's got an update for us. What's going on Jerry and we brought to you by the XFL Guardians get your tickets today at XFL Dot com o'clock? He's going to get the start with next week. Right yes ask I know after the Super Bowl nerves. A big moment for mccloughan. Now do they open at home mortgage or where is the The Game Yeah. They open next week. Yeah at home. Those were the take it away. Mark McLaughlin McLaughlin. That was at five fifteen. Be Fair at a couple of things zero more than a couple NBA wise. You've got the Lakers playing the blazers tonight. This'll be the Lakers. First game obviously says the passing Kobe Bryant last night the clippers did play a They had this big tribute before the game. which is very well done a big video and I thought they did a really nice job of of referencing? All of the people that were aboard the helicopter. Copter wasn't just about Kobe and his daughter didn't Philadelphia to you. Know they had the nine spotlights to reflect the nine souls that were lost in that helicopter crash. I thought that that was amazing. So I didn't see last night but I can't even imagine what the staple center is going to be like tonight for the Lakers. Last night the clippers went out and played and they did not do well. Here's Fox with a screen from deadman. Open seventeen footer left angle. He knocks down. The deuce and the kids are putting on a scoring clinic in the second quarter. They now have a twenty point lead at sixty four forty four. They clobbered them one twenty four one three Darren Fox had thirty four points. I after the game as you can imagine there were those that were commenting and referencing. Kobe here was king's head coach. Luke Walton those. Lots of memories you know is the street where we bought at our buses when we WanNa Championship and drove through the city Having the time of lies and You know you think you're doing on that and then you pull them the staple center and all of a sudden you're not doing better. Here was mantras Harrell. Who says cannot use this as an excuse? Play terribly actually I. I can't really you know we can't really keep using has excuse me We're GONNA feel that. Sure much to calm. I mean everybody in this war zone of feel that from West Com and so the clippers. Obviously were postponed with the Lakers. The other night they get on the floor last night the Lakers will indeed play tonight against Portland. Here's their head coach. Frank Vogel as they're trying to get through this. I'm around The people closest to Kobe throughout his time. Here and It's been a deeply saddening time for all of us. He continues to say. If there's I mean there's no positives to this but at least for the team maybe it's got got them. Moore's it together unit. This group in particular has really grown to love each other Very rapidly and You know we understand the importance horns any opportunity we have this year and You know this is just brought us closer together elsewhere in the NBA Raptors beat the cavaliers. One fifteen one nine nine nine straight for Toronto Celtics the Warriors One and a one nineteen at one. Oh four the wizards beat the Hornets. I believe Bradley Beal had another big game. Did Not make the All Star Star team and he was pissed about it. I believe he's the first player in the history of the NBA All Star game to average twenty eight points per game and not make it so he was pretty outspoken about that afterwards. You got the nets home for the Bulls tonight. Elfriede Payton was suspended for his part in that Knicks Grizzlies scuffle a couple of nights ago. Jaren Jackson mortgages left the bench. They got suspended as well. And the comments played for Marcus. Morris cost thirty five thousand dollars. Yeah Post Game I I knew of course that was going to be pretty bad for him and he had a Lotta WNBA players commenting on it. I saw Diana to Roc- talk about it and how disappointing it was and stuff like that's gotTa stop. We'll have that next hour for you. I I mean it's one of those things. Where he's he saying this stuff and he just doesn't? He's trying to insult a guy and he teased what he's doing his instead of insulting him he ends up insulting thousands upon thousands of people so just really really bad look for him all right time for like it or spike it like it or like it can be involved respects and we come up with different words for yes or no sports radio. I gotta be sure if that's AH shot at this point. It was like a sports. Talk Radio Monster all right. Have you seen the changes to the NBA. All Star Game No J. Well yesterday talking art. So here's what they're going to do now used to be a game. Yes now they're going to do is they're going to play three recorders each quarter. The winning team wins money for charity. Okay okay then they reset for the final game. The it's so stupid. The the teams that won the quarters. You add up their points for the final quarter and then a first team that gets to that number plus twenty four as a tribute to Kobe. Bryant wins the Game Lakers Spike it out. Because I'm confused. It's very confusing. Spike Spike two teams are there more than two teams. There's two teams there's team Lebron teeny honest. And there's no nick on either Tom. He spikes it you ambivalent okay ambivalent. It wasn't like it's spike in our ambulance. All right listen. I love the Kobe. Just great. You knew that they would do something there. But I've got a spike this one because they are no Sir Games. You'd be the All Star game that some sort of exhibition. God knows what's going on in this all right. Got It all star Game Spike in college basketball boomers like it is terrapins. Number Fifteen Maryland Beats Iowa Iowa Eighty to seventy two and Illinois beat Minnesota fifty nine fifty one. The airline have won seven straight into Adam down here at all. I saw him on. How how could you not eat? He's not as tall as that wall. There is this the walls three and a half feet Sunday evening. Chief Niners as we know in the super bowl here so Jennifer Lopez doing halftime with Shakira. Okay so here's she was. I guess she did her Super Bowl. Press Conference She's getting ready for this Monday night. Appearance at I don't know but she's talking about a rod and this goes to Kobe's passing how he's dealing with at this pretty terribly. Alex came to me with tears in his eyes and he's going to believe what happened and he was devastated. He knew Kobe very well. They kind of came up together entered sports around the same time. And so this continues to crossover and be a major topic. We have any idea on arrangements. I'm just curious as to how long there was a off the air we we talked about maybe Thursday of next week NOCI so but that's not confirmed right right right. I've seen anything. Did she say she was a jets fan yesterday. Did you see this did not see that but we will effort that often span. She's from. She's frogs deer. I could see her being a jet fan right jets Yankees make sense in any way in terms of the game. Are you look that up here. Is Patrick Mahomes. He's already trying to talk himself into winning. You have to visualize it if you want to go out there and do it and so for me. It's about going out there just executing a game plan at a high level trust in the process trust in my teammates and not trying to do too much by the way you were talking about Jerry Jones. The other day he cruised into Miami yesterday did he really. Yes and his three hundred and fifty foot yacht. I knew it you knew he was doing that. Come Mon did it in style. Arthur blank's got his yacht here too by the way Arthur blank. Those Falcon's owner but that looks like a dinghy compared to Jerry Jones's is Ja. Jones is pretty impressive. Joan Jot is like in the Freedom Tower on its side. It's three hundred and fifty seven feet right jeeze Mason. Goyal that'd be an jackass like in comparison. Your boat is how long twenty one out for real twenty one feet. Yes basically put three hundred fifty seven feet twenty five of your bow and then another another thing you saw the cruise ship in Italy. What happened they kept all six thousand people on board? Yes I'm telling you talking about cruise ships and yachts not good not good boomer boomer corona virus. I think you now well not the first one that that brought it up and started the panic. I was the first early wasn't was in a panic. Like guys wake up. This thing is serious. Yeah no it's I I don't even it's just there goes the joy as a segment are. Are you liking bradshaw. Show coming up news and of course and entertaining football actually think. He's underrated tabs on television as you saw Sunday. Do I really need to see Terry Bradshaw. Megan English escape escape family burnings. The Nuggets Bratcher needs family. He must use a lot of throat-coating after every show. I do that. Person Nation I called Spike. Ah Panthers in Greg. Olson agree to part ways although apparently he still wants to play and a and apparently these guys had the scoop yesterday and they held it. They knew they knew there was news. Nothing sucking down. Pina coladas lovers. They look through. roadhouse slimy pastor L. Slime by doing right uh-huh two guys on on their own. My God tremendous one of run out of time here predators there's beat the devils in a shootout six five years so from that news cafe that we were at any signing goes. May I pay for this and I said sure you don't go ahead so he looks at the bill and he's like and then he ends up leaving very generous tip to our server. Who seem like she was very distressed and Eddie was there to make her day better right so he leaves this very sizable tip? So she's she sees goes. Oh my God thank thank you. Thank you so much for this and I said well how much did you leave. He's just twenty five percent and then Al goes you realize there was a service built yes. That's an additional gratuity percent on that no wonder she was ready to marry if they gave a they put a twenty percent on it. Yeah Yeah Yeah. That's what I'm saying. They do that. All around yes. Yeah what's funny though is if you ask the server who did the other night just what is this service charge. It's for the bar staff. Mike Oh not for you know and then I will it yet is for them versus shares. So she lied. She lied so she got crappy. Extra ZIP although I did leave or more right right right. Not as much as I wasn't twenty five percent. That's for sure I don't why I don't like it don't either. It's confusing I. I don't like the way the whole thing is run down here. I would normally give somebody the some thirty. Th they're great I'll give fifty percent tip care costs to ahead. Eight Ninety Percents Service George because I think they charge us for rent for using the space And the Rangers take on the Red Wings Later tonight there. You go all right. Thank Jerry by the way Jennifer Lopez was a jets fan of watching the jets with their parents every Sunday from their home in the Bronx Jennifer low makes sense Big Jets Fan.
Israel Daily News Podcast, Wed., Sept. 2, 2020
"Good Morning. Hope Witness Diaz Sabela Leifer. This is China fold here from Texas. With the. Daily News podcast the only English Daily News podcast coming out of Israel I'm here to give you the headlines. So you can get caught up quickly. Today is Wednesday September second twenty twenty. Let's get to the news. Hamas Israel has two months to comply with the projects arranged during the ceasefire agreement. The official hamas-run TV station aired senior official Khalil Alhambra. Saying our demand is for the occupation to follow all of our prior agreements without procrastination or delay. This was last night. The ceasefire was brokered by Qatari envoy who worked hard between Israeli officials Gazans to come up with an agreement that would create some peace at the border that was earlier this week in the last couple of months. Hamas been sending balloons strapped with explosives to them over the border. Those balloons caused dozens of fires, damaged properties and caused residents at the border to repeatedly. Run for shelter Qatar is planning to send around thirty million dollars to pay civil servants and support families. In Gaza Hamas asking for the completion of quote, a number of projects that serve our people in the Gaza Strip and would help them cope with the outbreak of the corona virus. Those are the demands they have for Israel. Arabic media has reported at the ceasefire talks ended with a pledge to finish infrastructure projects. Reopen border crossings that were closed as a punishment for the fire balloons a rule requiring Israel to allow medical supplies into the Strip and expansion of the fishing zone plus an increase in fuel supply for power plants. A very comfortable video is surfacing throughout is really an Arabic media highlighting an Israeli soldier kneeling on a Palestinian protesters neck to stop him from moving so that the officer could arrest him. The demonstrator is sixty five years old and the cuffs. The officer was trying to pull out of his vest were actually simple pair of ZIP ties looped together. Career Hanoun. A frequent protester told Palestinian media. He was protesting against Israeli settlers for living on land near the Palestinian village, of Shefa. The video shows how new in pushing the soldier after the soldier pointed his gun at peaceful protesters he was demonstrating with the idea of says, the video is selective and partial. They also made a statement saying Hanin pushed the force commander several times in an attempt to create a provocation, the commander showed restraint and was forced to arrest the suspects after he continued attacking the forces and violating orders after his arrest. The suspect was given medical treatment huntoon says he was just bruised up but what the officer did was the height of criminality and that he didn't care about his advanced age. The idea of says they are reviewing this circumstance. An Arab Israeli schoolteacher is dead after she was shot by a stray bullet while hanging laundry outside her home. Thirty year old. Sharifa. Abu Had. Finished, preparing individually wrapped gifts for her incoming students on their first day of school when she was shot and killed. Just two hours before she had sent out a note to her colleagues in a WHATSAPP group of educators saying she loved an appreciated them. The bullet is believed to have been shot by twenty six year old who's part of a crime family in the area. An ongoing dispute between rival crime families has been ongoing in calmly essential city of Israel where the shooting took place, the twenty-six rolled was arrested along with a twenty five year olds and thirty year old. Police believe helped shooter get away the twenty six year old was arrested along with a twenty, five year old and thirty year old police believe those to help the shooter getaway. Officers are investigating whether or not the men participated in a triple murder that took place a few months ago in a nearby city called Lloyd. Violence, in Arab cities around Israel is very high Abu Mama is the fifty sixth victim. This year Arab lawmakers say not enough governmental resources are being allocated to these. To help, stop the crimes counselors are being provided to Abu Mars eleventh grade students to help them cope with the tragedy. The teacher had been an educator for seven years teaching at risk young people from poor families she focused on creating social involvement at school and facilitated meetings between Jews and Arabs living in the same areas. She leaves behind a husband and three young children ages four two and a half and six months. I have a question what's the number one change you want to see in the world? Me a message with your answer and also sign up for the Israel weekly news rap using the link in the show notes I'll put the details of the responses from this week into the newsletter. So up and print out before Chabad if you observe at, are going to be turning off your electronics for a restful twenty five hours. Following the UAE Abraham Accords visit senior White House adviser jared. Kushner made his way over to Saudi Arabia and buck rain to try his best at getting a peace agreement between the nations and Israel this follows a trip from US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo who returned to the US without any news on that front Kushner spoke with Bahraini officials who said the king would be waiting on Saudi Arabia to make a decision before moving ahead Saudi Arabian officials say they will not make peace until Israel agrees on the establishment of a Palestinian state. Now get this too friendly, yet rival Jewish communities from the United Arab. Emirates, came together this week and Abu Dhabi to welcome the delegation from the US and Israel the combat Lubavitcher group and the Modern Orthodox community of Dubai made a special trip to the capital to help make a million or a prayer service that can only be completed with ten Jewish men Israel's national security adviser Ben. Chebet joins the quick service and even read out section of the week's Torah portion that spoke about peace in two, thousand, nineteen the UAE's president Khalifa bin Zayid declared it the year of tolerance for the UAE and then announced a new interfaith compound to be built in Abu Dhabi. It would include a synagogue. The Abraham Family House as it's being called is expected to open in twenty twenty. All right. Well, that's it. For today's news. Today is Wednesday September second twenty twenty we've got a low of twenty six and a high of thirty one degrees Celsius in Tel Aviv. That's seventy eight degrees Fahrenheit for the low going up to eighty eight degrees in the central city. Thanks for getting caught up with me and don't forget subscribe to the Israel Daily News podcast on spotify or apple podcasts or wherever you're hearing it from I. AM everywhere please send in your answer to this week's question, which is what change do you most? Want to see in the world today. Thanks for getting caught up with me and don't forget subscribe to Israel Daily News podcast on spotify or apple podcasts or wherever you're hearing it from I. AM everywhere please send in your answer to this question, which is, what do you want to change the most in the world today? I'll send you off into this Glorious Day with a song called to meet Kadima or always foreword by subliminal and trip L. I love to run to the song have a great and productive day of all new. Malone. Yeah I guess they're the. Future because I luckily. Obi. By Tire move on. To my knowledge whole. Goal. Lover. Nats. He. Back. lost. The My phone. cavs. Malone. Teach. Microphone to by. Others. Called and maths. Okay. May. Not. Guilty W may customs and also Ben. Zaken. Janet Loman. And my landlord. As shown the. Resolve. Out. Malone. He?
125 Making it onto the grocery list with Chris Kirby, Founder and President of Ithaca Hummus
"You're listening to well-made podcast from Lemme about the people and ideas that are shaping patterns of consumption for the better I'm your host, Stephanie? Chris Kirby. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. You are the founder of Ithaca Hamas the the the name speaks for itself but you know if people haven't seen or tried your products, how do you them? Well we make Hamas that tastes like it just came out your blender at home, which if you like Hamas and you've tried a lot of Hamas you'll know that there is a remarkable difference between. What you would find at a restaurant or what you would make yourself at home and traditionally what you find on the shelves at the Grocery Store and So we may comments that you can buy the grocery store that that tastes fresh restaurant or homemade. Now. On this show, we've probably talked to a hundred direct to consumer ECOMMERCE entrepreneurs and some of them have gone into retail or or had a large retail presence, but you started there. I know that you started. In farmers, markets in that kind of environment but you're building a brand in the retail environment. Why start there today? Too Good Question First of all fresh Hamas needs to be refrigerated. So that's a barrier for us to shipping direct to consumer. We have tried it in the past but I think none of us on the team at Ithaca Hamas were really excited about growing that segment of the business simply because of all the packaging bad it required and and you know we didn't want to invest in to putting more of that out into the world. So. We actually have completely stopped doing any kind of direct to consumer business at all and you know in our category refrigerated distance spreads Hamas they're really for the most part bought and sold. At brick and mortar retail that hasn't changed a whole lot since I started the company and. So, in the simplest terms, you know that's that's really where the opportunity is for us today and so as a small under resource company, as you know, focuses is critical. So that's where we focus all of our sales efforts. And that makes a ton of sense to me, and I think that also even if you could perhaps get some traffic to your website and get some shoppers that way the multiplication of different retail stores like online ecommerce stores that I would need to go to. If I'm buying my home from this place and you know buying my water and milk and butter each from a different store would be pretty inconvenient and so Hamas probably fits into that category of things that you know if I'm in a retail store I, see it on the shelf reminds me I want to buy that or if I see it in one of the online grocers, it makes sense to buy with other items. In we're seeing I think at the moment a pretty. Big. Explosion I. I've seen especially in the beverage industry lots of new brands that are coming online. What makes this time period now different than say ten or fifteen years ago to start a retail focus brand. I think a lot of retailers are evolving. I would say that's the biggest change I've seen. You know retailers have seen what Amazon's been able to do with a purely direct to consumer online model. and. So whether it's through instant cart partnerships or shift or some of the other kind of. Digitally, native channels out there you're starting to see a merge of retail and online, and so that is a very exciting space for us. Specifically, because you know you're really starting to see. Individual retail locations turning into these pick and pack and ship and deliver buildings That are that are located right in a zip code, and they can really service a very targeted geography of consumers. So I would say that's probably the most exciting thing. that's developed over the last few years with regards to to retail. But you know the biggest challenge for consumer brands starting out trying to sell and traditional brick and mortar retail is that unlike online there's constrained space required space that's available on the shelf. So that's always going to be the biggest challenge for for any emerging brand wants to sell. At retail is how do you get your product on the shelf and once it's there how do you make sure that it performs well enough to stay they`re Going back to last year, pre covid and and so on. What did you have a sense for what the split was if your customers who were going in person to the store versus the ones who were using? Amazon because I know you're in whole foods, target Safeway lots of also lots of smaller, maybe more specialized or gourmet grocery stores. But do you have a sense of where your customers are or like what their shopping habits are? Yeah how how purchasing typically I mean we don't we don't measure that directly across the entire business but. I would say if I had to guess, you know ninety five percent of the time when people are buying Ithaca they are in a store putting it into a physical card and going and checking out and taking it home with that being said I mean. We do get really good great data from Insta- card, and just in the last three months, we've seen almost two million dollars in incremental sales just on on INSTA- cart from new new consumers. Wow. That's what makes it so exciting. But I I, wish I had a split on the entire business would be really fascinating to track over time especially right now but but we don't. Yeah I'm really fascinated to to think about what the evolution towards delivery is going to do to all kinds of things, and in the US we've been pretty far behind other countries on that front. I think in the UK last year it was something like Thirty five percent of people bought groceries, online and I. Think part of it is because the distribution mechanisms there just a much denser country than we have here. So it makes sense logistically but I think especially now with with cove were seeing that increase in and if you look at some of those charts, it's basically doubled over the course of a few months what has been if you can give like a summary of the, we're we're recording this mid August. What's what's it been like over the past six months or so? Yeah. It's been crazy I think we are very lucky to to be A. A very flexible company that can change with the times and and just Kinda just the way we go to market very quickly. So really as as soon as we started seeing early signs of Covid and you know what that Could potentially turn into. We very quickly changed our overall marketing strategy from trying to trial and raise awareness with new users. and instead started focusing more on how do we take light to medium users that are already a part of our customer base. And convert them into. Users. I think that's the best probably been the biggest. Piece of insight that we have. Operated on since it is that this is. You know certainly compared to the way that it was before this is less of a time. Where consumers are. Willing to take risk on something new People are just just don't have the patience or the risk tolerance to go to the grocery store and buy a new product or a new brand that they've never tried before and bring it home just to find out that their family doesn't as Mike It. So new customer acquisition has gotten more expensive but you know trying to invest in in the value of of of existing customers has has become more of a focus for us. Yeah and I'm curious from a discovery standpoint how things change as you see more and more customers using delivery as a way that they buy groceries because you know in the in the real world. Packaging has such an important factor to play where your thing is positioned on a shelf has an important place in the decision. Making process is someone GonNa pick that thing up look at the ingredients try to figure it out versus when they're shopping online. Discoveries a little harder. You're. You're not seeing as many products at the same time. Does that affect? Your ability to get new customers. I it does. It does for sure packaging design for brick and mortar CPG companies is without question the number one most important marketing tool that you have. One thing that we've seen specifically in our category is just less shoppers in the store less shoppers in our area. Hamas is Typically merchandise in Madelli section of grocery stores and there have been some studies that have come out. That show consumers associate the Deli. Section specifically with more. Handling of food. So just think of like sliced Deli meats and sliced cheeses. You know there are people that are physically handling that stuff so. The Delhi area of grocery stores has actually seen a decline in choppers that come through that area. So it has been incredibly important as I said to to figure out. Some other ways to to to raise awareness about the brand and almost send consumers to a store with our brand already on their shopping list. and. So yeah. So we've we've done all sorts of like I mentioned instant cart. We've got some really interesting projects that we're working on with AIBA. Right now, we've got all the traditional shopper marketing. Companies out there like in Marin Catalina, about those I this is a world I don't know anything about what are all those companies yeah. So I'll I'll kinda group in Marin Catalina together they buy all of the UPC scan data from retailers. So any time you buy something at a at a retailer if you have a loyalty card, what you're purchasing goes into a database that's linked to you as a consumer and in even if you don't have a loyalty card We're still tracking all that data and so catalina in mar take that purchasing behavior data. And then they put together programs for CPG companies who want to target consumers based on that purchasing behavior with things like coupons. So for example, with Catalina were able to segment heavy users in the Hamas category and deliver high value coupons to those consumers. So that were. Were investing in trial with the consumers that really are our shopping the category on a regular basis. and Are you able to track customers that way at like all the way to say like instagram or do the those kinds of re targeting campaigns as well. No unfortunately not we're not able to. We are able to see re purchasing behavior. So after after a consumer is Giving a coupon for for our product were able to see how many times they purchase after they use their coupon but there is no kind of translation can what's happening on social or other? Digital platforms unfortunately that I'm aware of. Bridging that gap seems like a really big challenges. That's something that you've tried in other ways do. More digital advertising or digital outreach campaigns that And is there a way to attribute those back? Yeah we have. oftentimes will run coupon campaigns on our social platforms. So just imagine like an ad that you're scrolling and you see for our brand and typically will use content that is a consumer review, and then have you click through to a landing page on our website where you enter your information and then we we physically ship you. A mailer coupon that way. So buy one, get one free coupon, and what that does for us is is it gives us a lot of information about the people who are who are downloading that coupon or or sign up for that coupon specifically zip codes because then we can take take those zip codes overlay that with the retailers in the region that were working in and then you know Kinda used that to be very targeted with things like email marketing. I WANNA. Come back to the first question I. Asked you can from a different perspective, which is that, for Hamas, I think it's obvious that it makes sense as a retail category. But if I'm an entrepreneur thinking about starting a brand right now and I'm not as anchored on a specific product but more like where's the world going? It's it does seem like there's a lot of opportunity in the physical retail products along the lines of homicide can be reinvented today and that maybe it's Maybe recently, it's gotten some attention, but I feel like it's under disgust. Maybe, just the circles that I travel in compared to the direct to consumer and e-commerce. Market D do You feel that way or do you think that there's a? It's a good time now to start a company in the retail world especially grocery. I really do I. Do I know for myself like under quarantine like I I actually enjoy and look forward to getting out and going to the store, and maybe personally spend a little bit more time there than I than I. What otherwise. But I think in general retail is slowly turning into more of it of of an experiential. Place where people can go and and pick products off and and look at them firsthand. So I, think that's something to be considered. If you're if you're looking at starting a a brand that's going to be sold in retail today, how do you align your brand with the experiences that retailers right now want to give their consumers the customers that shop in their store? How do you? How do you make it? Experience. How do you play into the trends that that retailer want to build in to that to their stores feud opportunity there I think now's as good a time as ever to to start a retail business and do you find it challenging at all to you know work with buyers and have to fit you know what you're trying to do as a company into what is purchaseable by a retail buyer. It. Definitely, I've gotten better and better at that It's it's a big challenge buyers and category managers have a an incredible amount of power They are really truly gatekeepers. I think over time you you learn. How to Motivate them. You learn what they WANNA see. and. Also you just become more of more of an expert on your your specific operating category and category managers like that. They like to have a vendor that they're working with it. They can come in and educate them on what's happening in the category elsewhere, and if you can show performance of your brand that's driving category growth at other retailers. That's really the golden ticket. We've had Matt Alexander from neighborhood goods on the show. We've had emily, Schill from pop up grocer on the show. In. Now, with Amazon having acquired whole foods I'm wondering if you think there's a possible evolution towards a grocery and retail as a platform where it becomes a little bit less dependent on the buyer and a little bit more. Like channel that everyone can access but that has the benefits of you know th the physical logistics around grocery especially in a world where delivery because more important you see that emerging in any way. Absolutely I I I remember as soon as Amazon acquired wholefood as soon as I learned that that happened my very first thought was you know Amazon just acquired? Four hundred physical retail locations that are in densely populated areas that they're basically gonNA turn into mini distribution centres. which goes back to the experiential. Component that I was talking about an an an I guess at the time. I was envisioning kind of this. You know a whole foods that is a third of the size of the whole foods that we know today. With. Less. Inventory. Physically available in the shopping area, but then the other two-thirds really being used a designed as a pick and pack and ship area. So I think there's a lot coming down the pipe in terms of just. Retailer innovation was that is what that how that actually shakes out I have no idea. But if I was calling the shots, it would probably be something similar to what I what I just described. It makes a lot of sense to me. It's amazing to me how how INSTA- cart even works. Just the fact that we have people roaming through aisles to pick up all of these different products I it just I. Mean. It's amazing to me that it can be as efficient as it is. Given how inefficient it sounds well. I it's it's honestly it's not very efficient. And I think a lot of retailers like hold on a second. This store is designed for consumers consumer discovery, consumer. And Yeah, to try to throw INSTA- card employees into the mix and you know I mean probably better than anyone like how efficient you can design a space or a warehouse right who just simply pick and pack orders, and that's not what grocery stores are designed for. So you're starting to see even retailers that are launching new stores and opening new stores. That's becoming a big part of the conversation for them. We'll retailers have this footprint that is so valuable because it's it's right there in the middle of cities where there's a lot of density and that super valuable but it's like all these different approaches to shopping are competing for that same space I. You do. Now you see certain retail stores have set up. The special checkout lines just for delivery. But then on the other hand, you've got Amazon doing its own stores. I haven't been to any of them the completely digital. Checkout. Where you're, you're just picking things off the shelf then walking out. Those seem like very. I guess they're compatible with each other, but neither of them is optimized for. Either the the shopper versus the delivery person or pick up person in that. That seems like a real challenge that they have to deal with. No doubt no doubt it's it's it's really gonNA take a while what it's GonNa take I personally believe specifically when it comes to the fresh grocery challenge and opportunity. that Amazon is is obviously, you know really well positioned to capitalize on that I. Just think it's a matter of. Maybe opportunity costs for them right now like is that is that really the next best thing that they can be working on at this moment I don't know we haven't seen a very much innovation are change in that in the last couple of years from Amazon but I would expect that to be coming soon at some point. You founded. The company in two thousand, thirteen in twenty eighteen you were part of Giannis incubator. People who are listening to this know about The incubator. What attracted you to it? Can you just describe what it's all about? Absolutely Yeah. So I started in twenty thirteen in upstate New York maybe. An hour and a half away from shoney's plant. and. So they have always been a source of inspiration and you know the story of of how Shabani was founded and came to be and had all sorts of success very quickly as you know, is legendary in CPG and so having a company like that. So close geographically to us at Ithaca yeah, it was a lot of inspiration from the early days I remember writing like handwritten letters to Hamady look I as the founder of Vanni like when I was just getting started just just to try to get. Ten minutes of his time on the phone. So fast forward a few years I think it was probably twenty, sixteen, twenty, seventeen Giovanni announced that they were starting an incubator and. As I learned more about it I mean. Big CPG companies starting incubators is is kind of like in vogue right now. But comparing Giovanni incubator to the others that were out there. It just felt completely on brand and in line with the values of of Giovanni, which was really about it was about giving back to them. It was about paying it forward and giving other brands and opportunity to. To to experience what it was like to be inside of a one of the biggest CPG companies in the country and and that's really you know throughout the experience exactly how it felt. You know we never felt like were putting on a show and trying to gain some investment or you know we never felt like we were being probed about like what's next and what's new? So that could somehow take that I mean just. Those are the things that I think you. You fear as an entrepreneur with a start off is you know you have certain things that you're doing that were really well and and you don't want to. Necessarily let the let the secrets out sometimes and it was just a it was fully one-sided. You know opportunity I would say for the brands that were involved. It was all about for Cho- Bonnie how do they? How do they help emerging brands? Can you describe just the mechanics of how it works? How long is it? Would you would you doing what? What is your goal throughout that process? Absolutely so so we there were five brands. We are one of five brands and the program lasted four months. and. Every month for a week we would go and meet as as a cohort for full week typically that happened at Cabanas so office, but we also did things like going to their plan and doing plant tours and you know going and seeing different retailers and I remember we took a trip to to freshdirect office in in that's in Queens, and then you know while we were in the office at Shabani, we would just meet with with different. Heads of different departments. So you know we really got to sit down and and ask burn questions that we had about sales or or about marketing or RND operations and the incubator team set up time one on one time with people from different departments at Giovanni to answer some specific questions that that the that the brands that were involved had, and so's very immersive experience from your perspective. What what is it about? Shabani that like what's the special sauce about that company? Or you know why was it? Know I know that in the in the retail industry like people really look up to it but from your perspective, why was it that you were? Sending letters to harm d like what got you attracted to that company in the first place show Bonnie has such a just can do you know we're going to make it happen kind of Aura or? Just just way about about them and that's I sense that just from reading about before I knew much about many people who work at Giovanni but then that was just completely reinforced as I met the people who who worked there and I love that I think CPG. Especially, if you look at, it historically has really been dominated by. A handful of. Multinational conglomerate. Companies Yeah. You know that's Kinda the way it was until maybe fifteen years ago. and. That's really started to change very quickly and I think since then Giovanni has probably one of the best examples of an independently owned. Company started by a guy, you know a person, not not some big brand that has really been able to come out and and compete with the big brands and and out compete those those major brands, a lot of a lot of ways. And That's what makes them so inspirational they started from the very bottom started at nothing. And Built a yogurt brand that. Really dominates that category in a very, very short period of time with. And they were under-resourced and you know you're not talking about a bunch of MBA's sitting around planning strategy for for how you're to accomplish something like that. They just they just did it with passion and a great product that I think that's what I hope to achieve every day and and that's what makes Mitt will make some really great inspiration for me. I think for a lot of brands I WANNA get Soochow bunnies branding in because I. think that was really kind of like. Asteroid hitting the earth kind of like moment when that the the new branding that they had came out a few years ago but they were already successful before that and I think the Greek yogurt as a category was something new to the American market and there are these kind of moments in time where a new category emerges becomes really popular and being the that figures that out. I is a really powerful thing. I don't know for you Hamas that category obviously. But. Is there. Is there a science to that? Is that what the big kraft foods Unilever companies are constantly trying to do like how do you? How can a? An individual entrepreneur like aspire to find that thing is going to become the next big thing or is that even something that someone should aspire to? Know I think that's the way you you really should think about it is how how do I create a product that consumers have to have in our life? I think generally a really important thing to consider with consumers is that they're very, very aspirational. People have vision of the way they want their life to be. The type of person that they wanna be and that is constantly being. By by the media and by their friends and their network and. I think one of the most powerful drivers of of consumer behavior especially when it comes to food is is health and wellness. people want the indulgent. Product tastes good and makes them. You know create an and his credible, but they also want to have a beach body you know and and be really fit and active, and so they're looking for for for consumables in products that fit into that aspiration. And the way Bonny did that was With a product that had less sugar and and more protein than the rest of the category that was that was their secret sauce and a great tasting product. But those two product attributes were what I what I would consider the secret sauce for show body because it's it's easy. It's digestible people understand that I can tell you about this new yogurt brand that has more protein and less sugar an instantly as a consumer. You understand what it is and how it benefits you and how it serves your needs or your aspiration as a consumer. So Ah. Trying to think about it that way, how do you fit into the lives that your consumer aspire aspires to have how? How's your products fit into? That is really critical in understanding how you talk about how you brandon, how you place it in promoted and all all that good stuff. Yeah in a little while ago we had magic spoon. On the show that they created this serial that is a higher product protein lower sugar cereal it uses monk fruit as a sweetener in monk fruit is just coming online right now as a as an ingredient that can be used for that purpose and we see that with. For example, like there are these. Almost. Like technological shifts or regulation shifts that enable a new category to come online but with Hamas or Greek yogurt people been making that. Thousands of years, and why is it that just now like we're all figuring out that this is something we all want to eat. Yeah I. Think it's it's really just fueled. A. Lot of times by just popular culture and and the media and the dieting fads that come in and out right now as you mentioned, monk fruit sugar is like public enemy number one so. Huge opportunity for sweetener you know alternatives and and lower low sugar products That's really been the case for. For a while now, but I think as you see these these diet trends make it big and and and really become part of the mainstream. oftentimes you'll see a lot of brands follow that up with products that that conform to to whatever the Diet of the the flavor of Taya the of the of the year is or whatever yeah I've definitely seen that. Companies align themselves around Paleo or Tito or in the mentioned that on the packaging itself, it trying to figure out what the next I guess. There will always be a fad diet I. IT feels like somehow we would arrive at like diminishing returns on that but maybe were were not there yet. Yeah. It's it's a lot like kind of thinking about. This might be a little bit of a long way around here, but you know thinking about the direct to consumer. As a as a brand new company I. Think it's great to get a lot of awareness to learn a lot about your consumers. It's higher margin typically, there's a lot of benefits of going direct to consumer to launch but I think in order to have a big sustainable brand that's going to continue to grow you need to be in you know you need to be Omni channel I think it's the same way with how you position your products at the beginning if you can align. A brand new product completely new brand that no one's ever heard of with a diet that's popular at the time. Then all of a sudden you're gaining all sorts of awareness just because you fit in with that diet coke with Kito let's just say you can explode very quickly that way but I think in order to have a long term sustainable brand. there has to be more, they're like Giovanni. For example, you know they had their protein and sugar claims that really helped put them on the map but then they followed that up with a lot of very substantive kind of work that they did with their community and they continue to be a company that gives back in a major way and very vocal on a lot of important issues and so just like a direct to consumer rand eventually needs to figure out how to pivot into an Omni channel strategy. You know event a at a at some point you need to figure out how to make your brand about more than just your product at that. Makes sense totally. I think of that in terms of surfing on waves and how many different waves can you be surfing on that are about to crest in the big companies like Unilever and and kraft foods, and so on. Are probably less going to be able to take a chance on the early days of Kito. Let's say because they need to for whatever new categories or products they're selling they WANNA be able to sell millions or tens of millions of units in, and they're just not going to be able to do that for a new diet but the super fans of that thing are going to be very excited about whatever brands show up that fit their. Their need, and if you can, if you can be surfing the Kito wave and then at the same time, be surfing something completely orthogonal like. Co vid increasing delivery of grocery or something like that or having been positioned in such a way that your product is GonNa do well in that particular context that those are things that you can. Stack on each other and and help your company. I'm just constantly amazed how much those diets keep evolving and we keep changing her mind about what's actually like the right thing to eat and how much innovations feels like. It still still exists in the world of new ingredients and foods. and ways to eat. It's insane and I and I think. That's one of the things at the Hamas that we we don't have a high protein low sugar claim. or or quantifiable point of difference with our product compared to the rest of the category, and that absolutely presents a challenge because people need to know what's different about your product when they see it without tasting it if you're going to grow very quickly. So that's made you know packaging and look and feel, and what we what we say as Brandon and the tone and all that good stuff what we're doing on social even more important. But I will say that the Diet that we are that I kind of ascribed to which kind of trickles down to the brand is that people people want food that tastes good food that tastes good that they're familiar with. that. Their family is GonNa love and so I think that's number one and number two I think the trend that will never go away at real food is really the best thing for you to eat as minimally processed processed as possible real food. Whole food ingredients made the same way that you would make it at home I. think that's A macro trend that's qualitative and. Just very difficult to quantify but something that's that's there. That's been there that's not going anywhere, and so it's a challenge because you know you're not talking about protein and sugar but it's more of of ascribing the same ideals and lifestyles of the consumer that you're that you're looking to serve. I totally agree with you. Personally that's how I like to eat I cook a lot. I, like to eat. Real foods with simple ingredients. But at the same time, if I were to play devil's advocate, I could totally see us going into a another like space age type of food movement in the next ten to twenty years that you know akin to what we saw in the fifties and sixties where people were inventing all these. Crazy like wonder bread type of things where in some ways like. Impossible foods are beyond meat. That kind of thing is sort of like a sci-fi food or you have the. Lab grown meats, or the things like soil, and I could totally see a whole movement of stuff that is completely artificially made and it's all about you know we can do this better through science and or something like that I could see that coming coming online soon, it very well May, and I can tell that the last time that that happened it was a it was a macro environmental. Shift that caused that which was which was World War Two, you know we had to figure out. How to feed soldiers and people at home and and you know had to be shelf stable tastes good had to meet a certain dietary requirement and so who knows you know that could happen at any second could be could be coded. Are something else that kind of drives that climate change is probably the biggest one where people are really thinking about you know vegetarian diets and Vegan diets because for for reasons that are that have to do with not just the ethics of the animal cruelty part of things. But also the the idea of how much methane is going into the air, how inefficient is to? Grow an entire cow. You know how much water that represents that kind of thing. So I could, I, could see that becoming something that that becomes more and more popular or. Iram. Actually the the founder of magic spoon previously started a cricket based company where they were making cricket flour based protein bars and I think. Eating more insects. I think is going to become a thing in the US over the next thirty years We'll figure out how to make that palatable to the American Palate. That's the part that's so fascinating to be that. There are still. Waves that could happen in the future like even though we've been. Eating for tens of thousands of years or whatever I mean we've been eating animals have been eating. Forever, but it's just keep coming back to that idea that I feel like we would have figured it out by now but there's still so much innovation the show. Bonnie incubator come back to that for a second. What were some of the other big lessons that you you got out of that I would say? Two things. Number one is that you know it doesn't matter how big. You get as a company. You can always. Maintain. That scrappy startup mentality Cho- Bonnie is living. Proof of that it it still feels like a startup. and. That's really cool I think. For anyone out there who has been inside of The headquarters of a brand that they. You know they buy all the time or that they that they look to or whatever you. You have a certain expectation that kind of lines up with what you see from that brand everywhere else but in their office. And then once you once you actually see you know what is like in the office what the company is actually like a lot of times it's very surprising. It's much different than you would expect but with Giovanni it just all kind of lines up and and they've been able to maintain that entrepreneurial startup kind of environment and that's really A cool thing and and very inspiring in an I. Think happen by accident you've gotTa make a lot of the right choices along the way to end up there but that was a big lesson the the other one was that. It's never too early. To start giving back as a brand some brands kind of start that way like like like a war be parker type model or BHAMAS. Five hair give a pair. And some don't you know we we started out for the first four or five years. It was just like brute force trying to just survive. but we did you know eventually Kinda got to the point where we Got Out of that survival mode stage and. Using, Vanni again is inspiration We've been very authentic I would say about the ways that we've chosen to to give back and support communities and and things like that and and that was that was a great lesson that I learned from from incubators as. We're there. Changes to the company or opportunities came out. Of being being in the incubator like in the months coming afterwards. A Yeah I mean. I think it was a opportunity to expand my network and expand the network of of the brand. and. Through that conversation and keeping up relationships and you know all sorts, all sorts of stuff that we've been able to to do as a company that we wouldn't have been able to Had it not been for the incubator? Even just just just the other brands that we were in the incubator with and the relationship that I have with a lot of those brand owners and and the brands themselves at this point is you know wouldn't have wouldn't have happened without. Without Giovanni, and I still have a lot of contacts at Giovanni's specifically so. If there's ever anything that that I have a question about her I, want to get on a call to talk about something that we're dealing with or maybe you know across promotion here there type stuff like that. It's just yeah does. The incubator was a great foundation for the relationship that we have now. Not. Only with Giovanni. But also with the other brands that were in our and I, think that's probably the most. Valuable thing that that came out of that that that we still see today on on an ongoing basis. I think it was in two thousand seventeen. Show. Bonnie launched their their new branding, and since then there's been so many articles and things are written about all the companies have like taken elements from that I was comparing earlier to an asteroid. because. It was so simple and I, think appealing to a lot of people who were looking for a way to explain. Their brand has been especially in the direct to consumer area. There's been a lot of companies that have taken that look and feel and apply to whatever they're doing I do think like it has a very I mean there's a familiar feeling to it with the the branding of the packaging. What did you take out of the kind of what what show has done over the past handful of years here in terms of reinventing themselves visually in how did that inspire you? Yes site, the creative director actually I think he's I don't WanNa mess up his title, but Leland Mash, Meyer is. Chief creative officer, actual Bonnie, and he and his team were responsible for the show Bonnie rebrand, and so during the incubator, we were very fortunate to have him. Walk us through that and talk about that experience and what they were going for and. The the biggest takeaway. From that was that they're trying, they have this very magical. Brand Story and product. And and they wanted to convey that visually and I think when you look at the logo and the website and the way that they treat the photography that they use on on. At has this kind of like magic sense to it but also at the same time with with the font they've used and we have a very similar font had a Goania has a very similar fond a lot of a lot of brands you mentioned. are started to kind of change the look and feel and resembles Giovanni someway it's a it's a popular. Font choices of popular look right now because it's it's got that association with. With natural, you know with with a brand that you want associate yourself with and get behind because I think a lot of brands have chosen as similar look kind of have those have some shared values I guess you could say it was incredible to hear. Leland's speak about about the brand refresh that Trebinje went through and I obviously am a huge fan of that look. As well, yeah. I I I think it looks great for sure. I think the question that some journalists were wondering was like everything everything starts to look the same like it almost seems like branding has become. So commoditised that it's very easy for companies to well, it seems very easy for companies to kind of change the look and feel and go towards these streamlined aesthetic said. There's a someone I know likes to call it snap to grid type of thing. That makes sense but it's just like you're you might be like a step away from being able to do that and so you just like tweak your brand just a little bit so that it fits within that trend and in some way it's it's good because like you said it creates a familiarity to the consumer they can just by looking at the the branding the font choices and the imagery choices. It sets up an expectation and I think about this all the time in you wide design. If you go too far out of what the patterns are that people are used to it you you put your buttons and all kinds of random places like even if maybe those would make sense. conceptually, if they don't fit into the expectations it, there's a user experience problem that that emerges and maybe it's kind of like that it's like a user experience thing. But then are you differentiated enough at finding that right sweet spot where you're familiar enough. But also differentiated enough becomes hard if everyone in the industry is moving together towards these like archetypal brand looks. Is Not. A really a question. It's just a feeling that. If you know what I'm talking about I exactly what you're talking about I. Think. It's cattle it. Does depend on your category. So you WANNA YOU WANNA stand out from the from your competitive set for sure I think that's probably one of the most important things but there are examples of of both you know you look at look at brand like only. Yeah. Just you completely off the wall broke a lot of the traditional norms that you would. That you would think about with packaging design and have had had an incredible amount of success and they own that space. You know when you think of in centric brand with crazy packaging I mean it's that's a great point you know but but then there's also kind of the other avenue of like okay. We don't need to be we. We can take aspiration from other brands in other categories because were doing something similar in our categories that that brand did in their category and I think that's maybe closer to to to the way that that I went about it. Yeah. with with our branding that we have now but both can work I think I. Think there's there's the risk profile. Associated with with these with both that that are different. It's a little different but I, think both can work well but you bring up an interesting point like do we wanna live in a world war all brands just kind of snap to grid and and and and and start looking a little bit too close to one another at some point that now become not a good thing as well. Nobody is anyone who's doing the Benjamin Ben and Jerry's look I feel like they've got a thing to. Question with like cartoony colors and art were hand drawn stuff. I'm trying to think there's gotta be I'm trying to think of who that would Bozo Bar Bo Bo's oat bars I think is what they they are like a it's like a Bar I don't know about that one. Let's go there a little bit more on the cartoony kind of fun side but yeah, there's gotta be. GotTa. Be some brands. Where could we send people to if they're interested in in the guy like is it your instagram your website go to your grocery store. Where where should they look you up? Yeah at Ithaca Hamas on Instagram or or is it Bahamas dot com those good places to learn more what's your favorite flavor? What do you? What is your go to because you've got quite a few different options now? I like our Kalamata. Olives at the moment. Is Our newest flavor your knowledge fan got to try it lemon garlic is our original flavor is You know the first flavor that I showed up at the at the farmer's market with than still are bestseller. So those two are great. We've also got some new flavors at were. Working on. So excited to talk more about those, sometime soon. Thank you so much Chris. This was really insightful I. I feel like I learned a lot I, hope people did too. I was great. Great Chat with you Steffan. Thank you for Thanks for having me and thanks for putting on the PODCASTS. Great episode to listen to. Thanks. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the show, she got something useful out of it. I'd love to hear what that was consider writing. A short review could be just a sentence long by going to itunes and searching for well-made I wanNA. Hear it all I wanNA hear good bad on a here your constructive criticisms I am just trying to make this show as useful as possible for you. So, tell us what you think. That is the very best way that you can support the show. Thanks and CNN. Time.
Trivecta - Mitis presents Born Livestream (August 21, 2020)
"And those goal I say. To Hamas move his holy. Cancer. People say. begin. To rain. So how'd you? Stopped. Wasteland. Is. Without you Laugh. Now. When you? Do. Kim To. Trust award is calm. Me To wear. Don't you? took. An. Who? burned. Thanks. Do. Competing. report. Way. At that was. Food. Can No? In soon. Darkness. Can Be. Can Be. Week. Your. ATLANTA. He. Soon. Sympathy. took. Own. Like. And I fell hey. In two year old. Days. Wish we know. What blow away. This needs. Way. All. took. Doc. Swear known. WHO was like. Is. Thanks. Ray. Brandt. Sure A I always do almond of our wasted. Maybe, I never had enough to last her. I've waited long enough. Our waited long enough every time I would try to keep it all together. Show started to fe. Our soon as you're sitting. Myself Off. So. Go. into. Off. God. A. and. He says, he's. He's with. New. You. His of his Seagram my he's of his. Big. His. WAS G. What are you GONNA do? Oh. Don. Leave it be. I was John. The. Wrong trees and I feel strong. Do this season his mom this? Is. So. What do you go? Obviously. Awesome. A. Beautiful. Shout out you guys shout out MIDAS. INSOMNIAC everybody. Everybody else on this damn bill man I got a lot of friends here that I'm really happy to see I. Got I. Wasn't planning on pulling up the microphone right now however. virk here it's been a long time since I've gone to be able to do this and you know little return to normalcy is nice. So I'm very grateful to be sharing this with you. My Name's Sam Tribeca. I'm not to play one more song. Thank you all so much. Here we go. No. So much say. So much we only. Have we done for God God? God. CARE. Feeling. In the. Grabs. During. Onery. Can, be on. Recall. All. Gone, gone away I, was this. The slide is. Now Leaking. See. A. Safe.
Risky Business #540 -- In depth: Hamas cyber unit destroyed in air strike
"The. Pay everyone and welcome to risky business. Your weekly nation Security News and current affairs showing my name's Patrick gray. And it has been a big week for Infosec news. And we'll be talking about all the big events of the last week without con- host Adam boiler in just a moment. And then we'll get right on into this week sponsor interview with Joe securities advisory Ceasar, Richard OSH deacon we'll be talking about zero trust networks. Richard isn't so worried about every vendor under the sun claiming two zero trust technology company. He's not so wide that's going to derail the movement towards zero. Trust is a model, which he says is on like Donkey Kong, particularly in cloud environments. So that sponsored view is coming up light of first up. Of course, it is time to look back on the weeks Security News without him boiler. And Adam, obviously, the big story of the week is the idea of strike against the HAMAs cyber unit in the Gaza Strip. They took out the building unclear as to whether anyone was in the building at the time. They may have been some advance warning given there, but there has been an awful lot of hand wringing and bad tixx flying around Twitter after that after that event. Yeah. Everyone's really looking for an example, all Connecticut response to a cyber attack. We've been talking about it for a number of years as cyber has entered the military Demane and has become a demented warfare runs. Wondering when you're going to place in place, I the war games and and win classical Connectik war prizes. And this people were talking about this like that's what happened here. And as some of the analysis sort of developed, it really does seem not actually this isn't the example that people were looking for. I mean, this did not happen in isolation. It wasn't like everything was very calm between Israel and HAMAs at the time. There were hundreds of rockets flying from Gaza into Israel and Israel. Turn launching hundreds of air strikes against targets on the ground in Gaza. So look I did reach out to a couple of people for comment on this. One of them is Bobby Chesney who is a director of the Robert S Strauss, NFL international Lawrence security. He's a law professor at UT Austin and the founder of the law fair blog. The other is clone kitchen who is a former US intelligence community guy who now works at the Heritage Foundation. And you know, you're gonna hear from them in a moment. The first voice, you're here will be Bobby in the second voice is clone. But I wanted to stop this package off with some audio from Israel and the Gaza Strip as always clips you here where recorded there are over this weekend. And let's just let's just have a listen to this package and simple spectators from the experts. Militants in Gaza have launched hundreds of rockets into Israel in the last twenty four hours and Israel has responded with airstrikes. The sky above Gaza City modest with smoke as this latest exchange of violence leaves. It's trace. Our house because Moraga. Israel says it's launched more than two hundred twenty s strikes on militants in Gaza. This weekend. In response to over four hundred Palestinian rockets. Below. A ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian groups is into its second hour off the days of cross-border airstrikes and rocket attacks. Some are saying that this episode gives us our first real example of something that's long been the subject of speculation that is by two state one day. Dare to use lethal military force in Connecticut response to some unfriendly or harmful action taking place in the cyber domain. That's an important question because unfriendly and harmful cyber operations occur all the time, and they normally aren't treated as armed attacks triggering the right to national or collective self-defence under the UN charter. But everyone appreciates this could happen one day. And so a ton of ink has been spilled trying to map out when a cyber activity might truly cross that line to a point that permits a military response. So it's natural to try to get this episode with Israel and HAMAs as a real life test case, but it doesn't work because here is real moss already were in the middle of a full-fledged armed conflict about a thousand total missile ordering airstrikes between them over the weekend. All the legal questions about resorting to military force clearly were already on the table well before the strike on the HAMAs cyber operations facility occurred. So this just isn't our long awaited test case there are of course, some very interesting international questions presented here the law of armed conflict. Applies to this strike just like all the other strikes engaged in by Israel, Ahmaz and Islam jihad this weekend, there are two questions that stand out. I was this building or the equipment or people in it proper military target. So that's the rule of distinction or the principal distinction. The answer's yes. If the building or quit constitute a military objective, which means that by their nature, purpose or use or location. The objects make an effective contribution to military action, cyber capability controlled by us in the midst of an armed conflict certainly could satisfy that test and probably did. So here even if a must hadn't yet put it to use here. Of course, we're told they had put it to use albeit unsuccess-. Now, if the idea was instead to target only people in the building that does get trickier because there's a fierce ongoing debate about exactly who counts as a combatant who counts as a civilian who can be targeted because they're directly participating in hostilities and so forth. We'd need more information about who. If anyone was in the building when it was hit. If we're going to go down that path in the analysis, but you don't necessarily have to get on that path in the analysis. If you're able to show the military objective status was satisfied for the building or the equipment in it. Now, there's a second question. That's whether the attack was proportionate might have any harm to civilians. It may have caused again, we need more information about who was heard whether they counted as civilians, combatants or civilians who were directly participating in hostilities. And again that debate makes that hard to answer even if there was some such harm. It doesn't constitute a violation of the rule of proportionality only fights the rule if the harm to. Civilians and civilian objects exceeds the military vantage to gain from the strike are expected to be gained from the strike and needless to say that sort of amorphous balancing of interests leads to lots of disagreement. So we'd need a lot more information here, and we're probably not going to get a lot of clarity about that information. Since two thousand eighteen July. I think it was there was public reporting about how the Maas was using a couple of different apps one that was like a World Cup at one that was up sometime social network at to collect information on idea of soldiers, some reports even said that they were able to collect location data on soldiers who jogged in around, or at least around Gaza, and between that and HAMAs reported hacking of Israel and Sumer activities. I suspect that idea is going to have a fairly strong case to say that this was a force protection response. And I think that that's a plausible explanation. I think that the comparisons that summer making about what the US did with you know, ISIS Haggar Junaid Hussain is is stretching a little bit. U S spy drones followed and track notorious British-born ice has hacker Junaid Hussain for days in the middle of heavily populated ruckus, Syria before finally launching the hellfire missile off a drone to kill him. As he stood in the street. Monday CNN has learned Junaid was ultimately targeted because he was actively trying to recruit and facilitate operatives in the west to conduct terrorist attacks in the west, and and that's kind of the line that people like on a lucky crossed and a couple of other folks who ultimately got themselves killed, and so, you know, it's not unfair to point to US direct action against unite Hussein who was a hacker. But I think it's a better understanding to think of Geneva as being. A terrorist operative and facilitator who also did some hacking he wasn't killed primarily because of his dachshund. So there you go. I mean, it seems like the consensus. He is that it was enough that the building kinda had HAMAs written on a given. What was going on at the time? Yeah. It does sound like as a legitimate kind of target for for an existing ongoing conflict right at that. The that's the kind of the difference that people haven't really made when they're talking about some of the other examples where there wasn't state of war or where it's outside of a regular conflict. And yeah, I mean, if you if you're off cyber operata, you probably be expecting bad things to happen to your even without the Asian on over the weekend. And yet once the things are already flying. I'm sure Israel, keeps pretty close tab on people who operating capacities new cyber otherwise in Moscow and other organizations, and you know, I've got a list, and as they as they work in through the targeting, you know, for the military strikes, then maybe this just kind of came out into the car relation between Vam attacking site drunk, Monica. High could see that kind of tweak in the nose of of the idea enough the move it up targeting list, but I'm sure they will the ready yet. Well, exactly. And you know, imagine if Israel and Egypt went to war. You would imagine that Israel's unit eighty two hundred would be Valla targeting that case lock in time of war all of the military become targets. I mean, that's just you're gonna blow up what's going to help you win. And this is what you get for making cyber Demane Awo failed of a sudden people who operate in a military capacity are kinda combatant some of the finer points of international law that Bobby often located than than we would. But yeah, that's something to think about if you're operating in that failed. But the idea that this means that, you know, the Americans are going to throw a Tomahawk through the window of the research agency, and some paint is book facing with elections or something. Yeah. That right like and he's not. And that's what's kind of given me the air. It's watching some of these tixx like I've been lucky enough in my career to have a couple of people who worked in senior legal roles in military, sit me down, and I'm talking like ten plus years ago. Me down and very wouldn't be ten years ago. It would have been around the time of Stuxnet actually to sit down and very patiently explained the facts of life to me on this stuff. Right. And you know, most people haven't had that luxury. But it's. You see something like this? And you lock. Well, maybe it's not quite the president said some people are saying it is. Yeah, I guess a lot of people don't have much exposure to the kind of the nitty gritty of international relationships conflict, and all of the, you know, the legal aspects that, you know, the motivation military's of the world to take into account, and yeah, that's an experience. It is. Fortunately, you know, beyond most be we we don't have to worry about a lot of the specifics in today. Life in the straighter Zealand, for example. So yeah, it's a it's the fact someone took the time to explain it to your in Philly has helped ways that probably they didn't expect. I was interesting, right. Because like, I did not know anything about this. When I started having conversations, and you know, what I thought I did. Right. Sorry. This. That it was humbling, right? It was really humbling going on. Okay. Right. There are rules here. And they actually kind of make sense because that's the thing. Right. Just because cyber is new doesn't mean you can take a lot of these a lot of these existing sort of rules norms and actually map them out to a situation like this. That's just not the case. And indeed the situation straits why it's so important to understand that those existing kind of rules about communicable absolutely apply to cyber because cyber hackers in the real world. You've got to building full computers and laptops in dealing modems. Whatever else using and you can get blown up. Right. It's not. Can I have not seen any report suggesting that anyone was killed in that strike, and you head Bobby side that it was like when you actually wanna blow up the people in the building can build it with different located? So I'm wondering if they might be gave him a bit a warning. Or did it not, Tom? Yeah. We have seen that in the possibly or Israel has given specific warning that, you know, something bad is going to happen in this particular place. Maybe you wanna bug out just to show that they've got the reach but without necessarily and storing the material involved, but without actually having to cross that line of killing people. Well, the the United States design thing in Syria, not sign a long ago when they launch Tomahawk struck against ISIS and Airbus guy heads up, right? We wanna blow your planes people and damage Ron y sire is that now look we've got some interesting research out of semantic that's kind of being butchered in New York Times right up walk us through this one. Because this is just this is really quite crappy reporting on behalf of the New York Times. Yes. So the story that semantic published was about some research they'd been doing into state of exploits used by Krugel Buckeye Shum is also is one of the Chinese crowds gothic panda, or there was one of the other names Hussein them referred to as and they were found or. Found some evidence of them using tools related to and derived from some of the equation group things that dropped by shadow burqas, and they've been working to timelines. And there's about a year before shallow burqas that semantic scenes evidence of this group using some bits of double pulsar, which one of the NSA tools that was was dropped. And some of these tolls were derived from the same shared, the same origin story, but would not necessarily exactly the same been a work on them and little off it as having described it. And so, yeah, they were asking the question legitimately offering a how this particular Chinese crew got hold of the tooling speculated about a few ways that might have happened. And then, you know, this is the kind of retroactive analysis that we get to do. And we ate Tomlin shadow Burke is draw. It'd be really interesting to see who else was using it who's been using it where it's being targeted and what's going on. That's kind of what semantic walked for this. And then you have any hope times caught hold of it. And it it came out rather differently. Yeah. The United States. Lost control of cyber awesome. All right. And they sort of ran that whole law, and sort of might look like the Chinese had somehow obtained the the exploits from NSA when faily plausible scenario is that picked it up when it was being used against them from a crash down on the wire or whatever. And then said, hey, that's a pretty sweet split. We're gonna use that. I mean, this is something that happens. I mean, you look at high security networks in the US high security government networks, they do they grab their own crush reports. Looking for this stuff? This is this is not a new idea that you're actually monitoring things crash reports and interesting activity on the why to see if you can grab your advisories exploits. You know, you might wanna poss off that information to the software mica, so that can fix it. You might want to repurpose that exploit use it at different talk. I mean, there's a lot of stuff you can do with it. But the idea that this somehow indicates that the shadow brokers tools were in possession of China beforehand. I mean, there's nothing he support that. I mean, it's a dud report. Yeah. It is. I think a lot of the reporting kind comes from this. This idea that we can treat cyber tooling as a quivalent to normal military weapons that you can kinda stock pilot, and the algae just doesn't really work because you know, using gun battle using Mishal using technology about it, doesn't expose really important information. You may have some capabilities with a particular sonic with that that demonstrate a new capability, but I think the, you know, the difference with with the cyber is often knowing that something is possible is the key piece of information knowing that there is a windows about in the B that works of like this is. Is really what you need to know to then garments find it, and it's possible to parallel construct the bugs, you know, as you say from Nick traces from crash dumps all maybe they did compromise. Some intermediate hosts that was being used to stage tools or or whatever else was going on. We don't really know about the link between shattered, burgers, the the state of tooling. That was dumped Emma crew that did that. And the Chinese crew doesn't doesn't seem to be anything lines up. And certainly those examples in the semantic ride up of in things where I didn't use some of the things that dropped in brokers. And for example, the fuzzball framework a few bits that they didn't have or they use like in a way that kind kinda makes it not clear that there is a link. Yeah. Yeah. Bit of a bit of a bump stay there for for the New York Times. Andy Greenberg over at wide has written up a bit of a fate CIA. It's like a roundup talking about the career behind the cleaner and ISIS attacks, which of course, the ISIS. Report was initially broken by Kim Zeta. Now, Andy's got a bit of a rod up looking looking at this through more wide lens. Yeah. It's a nice piece to explain if you if you need to communicate this to people kinda further up your management China like it's quite a good right up that kind of explains how it's to together. I'm not sure that the conclusions that we seen actually not just anti a couple other reports also get to about the impact is going to have on making us. Distrust software updates and how that's a bad thing for the. I'm not sure that that's another them. Trust updates for their crap way. Right. I don't think it's gonna make them distrust, the RS opt-outs but auto ironman because I think about this from the perspective of of an ordinary consumer. No. And I think we're moving it's automated, it's anyway that people don't really think about it. I think all really I'm not sure I buy that by the angle, and it's funny though, because you remember an auto updates I popped up as an issue will like, well what happens if someone infiltrates the supply? China starts fiddling with the updates. I mean that was the conversation in like the early two thousands, and it sort of didn't really happen. And now it is in. It's just funny that those concerns kind of dismissed at the time back big trouble on the dock web. Deep dot web has been taken down by the FBI and funneling. We spoke about I think last week or the week before that Wall Street market where exit scamming looks like got out a little bit too light. Because they've have been some arrests over that one as well. Yeah. It looks like a bunch of people gonna take out for that. There was another kind of Mina market. The go busted by the Finns. I think Valhalla the name of the marketplace. But yeah, the Wall Street ones we mentioned a couple of weeks ago, we talked about it that one of the moderators was kind of like trying to extort money from people by saying give me your address. Yeah. We've got your address as though any apparent. He just dropped his cribs on a message board somewhere for the back end and be a pretty soon after that Lauren Foresman role. So not sure if I already rolling. And they onto it or whether that was the, you know, the kind of in that got, but either way pretty, you know, put a full from Greis ball to the extent of the dock market head guys and first place. Now, there's a lot of confusion about the cold ten K blaze exploits, these are offending sap production systems. There's a company named naps which is hyping this up. But the researchers who actually did the work sighing that the news reports are mostly bunk. What what's going on here? Yeah. So it'd be awesome exports for sap dropped after a conference in Dubai the CD conference. The researchers did a talk about if he security dropped a couple of tools that can be used to exploit the frontier in route guy way message in defies thing for SAP apparently some people put on the intimate which terrible idea, and then yeah, it's been kinda hyped up obviously bogs in this kata enterprise software. You know, Dow's have the potential to be pretty pretty much of a big deal. And there's quite a lot of it on the internet. But on the other hand the exploits are little bit fiddly. Like, you do have to have some understanding of the product said it's not really gonna script kit a whim, very well. So in that respect, you know, the the reporting which is like, oh, my God was a million people on the internet, and they're all going to earn tomorrow which failed probably about if I do it won't be by crypto minors something now maj Kat has been giving the operators of. Online stores I- terrible time, and it has until now and to recently being largely confined to magenta installations, it looks like some attack is who, you know, talk. It online stores they've really broadened out. They offerings shall we? Speak. Yes. If you've got a technique that works in clear, the major Kat stall of attacks where your inject Java scrip- into the checkout pages steal the Craig's time of entry clearly at works. Well, don't surprising that we seeing we're seeing it being adapted to a bunch of other some apparently the actual some of the actual hours. Get implementations starting to get kind of generic. So you can use them with one of the one of the forms was saying, you know, fifty seven different types of cod with one set of jobs script, which is pretty I guess a natural evolution of tooling. Apparently. Now, it's affecting Arpan Kat comas comas shop affi- on. And so on that right up courtesy of Catalan Campano another one from in here, which is a miniature, I guess on some mysterious person or persons or group of persons who are selling windows day till like groups and financial crime groups and whatnot. This is based on some research out of Kaspersky. Yeah. This tracks this guy a lawyer. Oh group Velayo. According to whiskey might be Ukrainian guy or group that's been selling bogs for a few years now like having the some resets going back to two thousand sixteen where this guy was selling windows bugs on the exploited in which is, you know, fairly open for my asking quote quad, originally, I'm on eventually someone bought one of his winters exports for eighty ninety thousand US dollars has since gone on to celebrate your bogs to, you know, also crews ABC and financial crime. And yet go show that there are people, you know, selling this kind of thing, you know, on the underground in the Mcgann marketplaces, and that's pretty good money, especially if you want God and Ukraine, sending two hundred thousand US dolla exploits, you know, I probably live pretty well in that this is the sort of thing that people inaccurately said was happening ten years ago, but it is happening now. The thing that I found interesting about this right is for a long time, high quality exploits of sort of being out of reach of some of these financial crime gangs. But they've sort of reached a scale now where dropping a couple hundred grand on an exploit kind of gets them a decent return. Right. So I wonder where this leaves us. Yeah. New someone's more maturity in the kind of monetization side of of crime. These days, you know, ATM cash out's big invoicing stuff, and and, you know, obviously grip their concert mining, and I guess gives them more options to turn particular bog into a bunch of money in a more reliable predictable. Why which makes it of an investment you can manage so? Yeah, I I think that's the difference. Right. I mean, we've always had people with good bugs. But supporting a marketplace, you're gonna have some criminals, at least you got to have some way to cash out the other side, and we are seeing them getting better that now the type nightmare on folding in China just is in hyper drive, they are installing the Chinese government in the in Yang province. They are installing these guides right that do facial recognition and also it's a biometric measurement the idea here bang to just track. Absolutely. Everybody's movement. It's in an area where I reported to have something like one million people in reeducation camps. This is just. Stuns me that this does not get more attention. There is real genuine Destop excite upon surveillance future going on going on in China. And one of the things that's really interesting about this particular safe of guides Dole's alot, they look like normal security scanners, and it's not just that you have to go through and have your identity validated. And that gives them a chance to collect biometric data to correlate against your identity. Cosmo things it's also collecting data files from your fund. So the eye of your phone hob where the max of wall bluetooth devices on your parents and storing those as well, so they can then use that the lighter Carlisle online activity with real world identities. And that's really, you know, where this is heading for them as Gordon app for the local police to be able to query the database integrates all of invasion from various places like elected of Viking, Dan, very quickly, you know, act on and correlate all these different in defies to give and just ensure that they have complete. It could optic on over the the the groups that they tried to oppress, which just tops. What is say it is man Wegas having a hard time and look link through. Also, there is a writer yard program. I listened to on the comes from ABC radio national here in a stra. And there's a program. I listen to cold reevy. And it's a it's a great concept for what they do is. They take a topic. That's painting the news. And then they give you like a thirty minutes sort of. History lesson on it essentially, and I did one about this province in April that I listened to and found very interesting. So I have link through to that in the show notes. So you can have a listen to that if you want to but what is happening? There is just so troubling on so many levels and not just the surveillance pen optic and just type nightmare stuff, but like separating families. It's horrible. It's really bad and the extent to which they've ramped up the tech Saudis. Just it's insane. Okay. Something a little bit on the flip side here. The CIA has set up an onion service. I guess so that people can send them anonymous tips. I mean, my joy on Twitter was well, they got a long history and nocco trafficking. So I guess it makes sense. Offer onion service, and I also wonder how many how many goats they've had now like what is the official goats? He counts for the tip, FOX for the onion service. Get ceiling has been trying to get kinda hip lately, you know, getting the tumbler or getting on Twitter and making jokes, and yeah, I guess have onion side, perhaps, the some value, I suppose, if you want to apply for a job with what what communications you'd want to have the CIA that required you to use them and maybe tip jar, I suppose, but yeah, I suspected as just goes e so not exactly high quality actual intelligence right there guy. See I very hip agency. Apparently, we've got another China one here apparently China is making rapid progress on the potency of its cyber operations internet reap according to the Pentagon. Yeah. During a briefing, they were saying that China is at the point where they can degrade coal US operation technological advances using the cyber which kind of makes sense China is pretty good at the cyber ring and the. Therefore, you know, US preservative things or something like that. I wasn't quite sure what the what the aim of this particular briefing walls. But yeah, it also sounds like that information might be about five to ten years out of date. Right. Well, you know, the wheels government move slowly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess at least they now I interesting development in Japan. The Japanese government is apparently I'll offer this creating what it is calling defensive Mel way, which I think is a is a wonderful more on there. But it kind of makes sense when you keep in mind that they have a pacifist constitution, of course, being a result of Japanese involvement in World War Two. But yes, Japan has announced that it is creating this so called defensive Melwood. Apparently it's going to be the first ever cyber weapon. What's good for the guess, we have seen sort of a train of countries kinda coming out and saying that they do have this capability in that kind of thing. But yeah, it sort of a funny way to the phrase it kinda plays into the the thing. I was mentioning earlier of treating cyber like, it's regular military. The you know, you can develop the weapon and put it in the also keep it there in readiness for the Terrence multiple what it really really works. Like that one thing that did make me off those apparently a that. Maybe I live weapons first time they've tried apparently back in twenty two by contracted the Fujitsu to create quote, search and destroy malware, apparently just deliver that or something. I don't know. Maybe this time Japan. Yeah. When I think high tech sophisticated weaponry, I think Fujitsu. That's a very strong association. I have about you. I slightly disturbing report from the US government accountability office reveals that aren't we six TSA staffers and t- us is the is the agency responsible for oil and gas pipeline security in the United States from a government perspective are only six stuff is from that agency have been tasked with overseeing the whole shooting match, and that's just wow. And this includes like physical controls not just cyber cyber controls while he's after worry about actual physical security of the pipelines as well as presumably security of all the control systems that regulate pressure in safety, and all of the bits that you required. Operate hype ratio willing gas pipelines. The same does seem a little short staffed the report actually has a table showing the number of quivalent fulltime staff involved in during this pipeline security, it peaks, fourteen and twenty thirteen. But then in two thousand fourteen it's goes down to one. So I guess they had some staff retention problems during that period six is kind of an improvement. I bet God. It's amazing to that structure. It really is that with knowledge of some fairly hideous stuff that happens with serial eight-minute connections on various sensitive equipment finding their way onto the internet. But anyway, I can't really talk too much about that one. So I the scoop is reporting the clog is the Dutch warning of escalating Russian and Chinese attacks in the Netherlands, of course, the Netherlands got Russia offside through the throughout the seventeen thing. That's also what gave Australia a few Russia problems because we led the charge in the UN through to get access to the crash sought and all of that sort of stuff back when it happened. But yeah, things are heating up in the Netherlands. The Dutch have been pretty active in countering Russians things we've seen the number of investigations into like those that group that had acquired. Tools on car in the car. That was the bunch of thoughts intelligence. I think involved in that. So we have seen them kind of poking the bear little bit. So I'm not surprised that seeing particular activity there and they're concerned about it. But yeah, that's been doing better than better than many encountering it. So good for them. How great is living in vice leaving countries that are basically zero strategic importance to Russia, and it's wonderful. Unfortunately, the Fraga is cursed because we do live in an area, which is very strategically important to China. So you can't have it. All there was that. Yes old. But at least, you know, Russia just probably went on a huge priority for them, which is which is wonderful. Welcome to two thousand and three WordPress. Wordpress is now getting updates. Yes. Less has upon features that kind of security relevant the big one. Of course, being that the update process now has some sort of allegation that all so if you'd like to charge them, the would press up in excess of now you have to also steals crazy packages son will find signing. Versus course. Rather than just earning the updates, which you know pump show now. Huma huma. I got I got it done. Worry Verizon T mobile. Sprint an AT and T have been hit with class action lawsuits are selling customer location. Donna real surprise there. Because when a story Joe Cox's story about bounty hunters getting access to everyone's location information. When a story like that breaks, you can bet your us a class action. We'll follow and it has landed gave Donna surprise at all hopefully show gets like Kat of the of the money when they settle or something because he's been pretty involved in forcing this up into the Bubba guy. Some funny stuff with five bucks. Let's kick them too hot over this happens. But this is pretty funny. So FOX had well a little certificate expiration problem. Some sued expired annals sudden a whole bunch of folks at would sable because it's the difficult had expired five in rushing around trying to fix it and people can tune. They add owns back on over. Let's vice browser add ons or a terrible idea. No, use them for exactly supplies. Jen reasons? Bows, it all there were a lot of there were a lot of infighting people complaining about noise script tanning off. So that was kind of funny. Maybe that's the point. Yeah. On the plus side. It does main that they thing checks literally of which is good. I mean, give them we would just a actor. Hey, hey, I love his new boss half-full sunny metal. That's great. Put a positive spin on something in a while. Look, we are in the middle of an election campaign in a stride. Call don't ask. But this interesting stuff happening. I think I mentioned on the show a couple of weeks ago that a lot of strident politicians are using chat. Because a lot of Chinese speaking people in strata both immigrants, and what we call ABC's, which Australian-born Chinese and God, there's a lot of disinflation flying around on way chat. It's it's bad. Right. Like a lot of stuff, and it's gotten so bad that the ustralian lie party, which I guess is the astride equivalent of the Democrats have actually written to ten cents to complain. Well, good luck. With that. I'm not sure it's gonna go particularly tickly fought ten say into K's too, deeply about strategy and election fake news. Yet has been certainly some of the stories some news you've seen repeated across that particular medium has been pretty bottom of the barrel stuff. Yeah. I saw a few Chinese speaking people having a big laugh about this like saying there's bad information on chat. Getting the hell out of town. Welcome. Welcome to our world seems to be the idea there and tell us about evil clip e which has been reported on over at bleeping, computer. Yeah. This is a toll the put together a bunch of techniques for modifying marks office documents. When you're trying to stick, malware where in them such they'll still be rendered correctly executed correctly by your target application would or excel or wherever else about probably won't random, very, well or won't be processed. Very well by gateway controls falls and Email filtering in that kind of thing, you know, just kinda through leveraging the we had vagaries of office of the office foul pases over the is underpinning, what vision office you. It'll let you generate macro that for example, in would Macara's you can deliver the actual macro component as kind of bite code instead of source code and saw the some tricks. You can do to kind of make it look like there isn't a macro in. They're actually really is. It's kind of a round up of a bunch of those sorts of things. So yeah, if you're in the business of two littering docks around the price. Definitely check it out. If you're in a business defending then well, you're already having a bad time. So, you know, it's probably worse. Dell having. Had time harsh very much. I mean we've seen God. What was it? There was another vendor that had something very similar to this was last year the before. But anyway, it's the horrible that they bundle with computers surprise surprise is riddled with awful bucks. This particular one was the if you're on the local network, and you can spoof DNS then you can kinda inject content by claiming to be from dildo. Calm into an I frame. That's got the Dell protocal hand thing. He raised in your browser and onwards to Kurt exotic found which yes seem pretty no move into crap where I did like Alex Esco on Twitter saying like, I'm amazed L to fix this. Like that's great great hobby into which the saddened by on the site of way. Really now I saw brought up doing the rounds on Twitter that looked pretty interesting. It looks at AWS. I am exploitation and miss configuration. AWS miss. Is a good rod up. Yeah. This is a really good ride up. There's nothing new in here. But it's one of these ones that kind of concisely explains a bunch of what is quite complicated, Amazon privilege, Amazon privilege stuff that really everyone who's involved with AWS cloud things does need to understand absolutely with the read. If you host things in the cloud, or if you are going to hack things in the crabs different tricks in there, and yeah, it would behoove you on the stand him. Now. That's actually it for the wakes news. But before we gar- I just want to clarify something from last week last week. We spoke about how African banks telcos had worked together to lodge Lee solve these seem swap fraud problem. I spiked very much about my awareness of that coming from my trips to South Africa. But it turns out these solution to these problems that are having it looks like that was an initiative spearheaded by group of people in Mozambique, one of whom reached out to me. Hey, what are you? What are you doing talking about South Africa is a lot of people in Mozambique worked very hard on this? So I just want to apologize to the fun people in Mozambique who worked very hard on that solution. Obviously was just talking about my my my personal awareness coming from from travels in South Africa. Yeah. Big shout out to the Mozambique soot from risky business. Hey quotas, and thanks for writing and telling us what we were doing wrong. That's it. That's it. And that's actually it for this week's news, Adam it's been a pleasure to chat to you, my friend, and we'll do it all again next week. Yeah. Thanks for much Patna look for to win the next week. That was Adam boiler there with look at the week's Security News as regular listeners risky business is is sponsored podcast h week. One of us gets to come onto the show to have a chat about topics near and dear to their hearts and this week which heading with Joe security advisory. See so Richard arch deacon about zero trust networks as you here. There are a lot of security companies out there that a slapping zero trust networks stickers on this solutions. Even though they have nothing to do with the philosophy that underpins zero trust, but Richards, not so worried about that the drive towards zero trust as a model is too strong for it to be derailed by T marketing is what he had to say. I think yes, there's a lot of people who are jumping on the bandwagon. As one see so said to me the other day, you can pick up a product now from Venda with zero trust solution on it you peel back the sticker, and it's GDP solution you peel back the sticker, and it's go PTI compliance ticket. So yes, I think. There is going to be a little bit of caution about that about people picking up on this as a new tagline. I think the second strand we have dole. So bring into account is the awareness within the market of a security people as to what zero trust is. And what didn't tales we did some very interesting. Whip costs the just before Christmas. We had about five hundred people in those what costs that's nice samples this type people and about two-thirds at heard zero trust a third of them hadn't even heard of zero trust yet. So I think this quite a way to go in the security profession to understand what it means. And the implications going forward, it's such a what I would call a broad church. These dyes are going to be honest as someone who's being in the spice for a long time. I still find it a little bit surprising. When people say things like that that in a webinar of five hundred people joining do I women I thought of them Dino zero trustees, I do find that surprising. But look, I think a lot of people try to define zero trust in these complex terms. But for me, the definition has always been rather simple, which is really love to get your thoughts on this. But to me, it's always Bain. Hey, why don't we just trade out land? Like, it's the internet and ACTA Cordingley. I mean that seems to be the. Simplest definition that can fund zero trust. I think that's a really good overview. I think came a lot out of the beyond coop. Work some years. Go by Google. I think the simplest definition. I've heard of security is securities quite easy. It's just making the right people. Get hold of the right data on stopping the wrong people getting hold of the right data. And if you break it down as simple as that. That's almost what trust is saying we're going to make sure that we have the right people who are going to be getting access to the right data. I'm going to stop everybody who's not allowed to get the data by verifying who they see. I almost feel like that is too broad a definition. And that's why we've got some of these vendors creeping in trying to say, well, look, you know, out thing does access controls are therefore with zero trust Harare. I think you're right. But we have to go back to one of the first cool principles, which is trust and verify. So it's about verification of the trust of the user against a set series of if you won't parameters which are applicable to the action that they're going to undertake. So it's. Looking at what I would situational awareness. And then a it to what the users going to be doing. So what you're doing? I think is probably on the best expressions. I've heard of it is you're looking at the organization from inside out not outside in in the past. We had said we have a perimeter. That's the outside. That's where we'll control people coming in. Now, we have to take a foam on nuance. Look what they going to do when they get within the organization. So let's see what apllications to what will roll require. Now. Let's test them against that and verify the level of trust that we want. So it's adding in that level of subtlety and complexity it's not just about us as though it. He's also about getting a by sly and sort of understanding of the devices that they using. I mean, how indepth is you're going with that. Because I know you're that Dior labs has done some really interesting research, but like to what degree is Joe's tech, actually peering at the doing health checks on end points that are authenticating through its tick. Well, I think you brought up a really good point speaking to see so the major UK Bank the other day, and he said, I want to know three things my basics. I want to know is my active directory other right people getting in what is my inventory, and what is the status of my inventory in terms of patching and so forth. And if I got those right? That's my eighty twenty. I can then go and look the more complicated stuff once the cool basics. Right. So knowing the user knowing the state of your and points, knowing what end points, you've got is a key driver. A sound simple. When you put it like that. Right. But you go into any major enterprise that was today their inventory that was the gag right? Say if we look at how we're protein it from the point to be I think the first and most important factors. The test is done at the time that the user makes the access so that inventory is not dependent on access upon a period extent. So it continually checking on what devices coming in. So we get a very up-to-date real time picture of devices on the device inventory. And then looking at the state of the device looking at the level of patching that it's got up looking at the punching of for example, a browser that enables one to get a really good. Snapshot of what is going on within the end point scenario the picture of the organization, but it's also it's looking at the end point that it gets used for them for verification, and validation if somebody's using a push full of on their phone is the phone in the right state hasn't been jail broke. How's it? Go by metrics on it. So you can put some standard checks in. Round that device as well to enhance your endpoint. Now, look that's an easy sell. Right. Because vice off is a thing that many organizations use. But I mean, you actually pushing agents out to like windows workstations through that integrity. Checking. It's agent less. And that's one of the great things about it. It doesn't need deployment presumptive, an MD agent out to the point that gain becomes very significant in some markets where people are country versed having the devices checked with an agent on it, especially in MDM type advice, which can give full control and might even wipe the device should aust-. So you're doing Java script sorcery, I'm guessing to basically elicit the browser which is a fairly proxy for the patch level of the system yet. I'm in looking at the level of the patching of the system. So that's that's how. Yeah, I mean that doesn't help you in in the sort of malware. Subversion case, right. And that's why back in the day when people were trying to solve similar types of problems with neck. That's when av companies started tying antivirus sort of health chicks two neck controls. I mean temptation there by. Oh to try to get more information off the end points. Look at things like Colonel integrity things like that. Because as I say, I mean, that's the sort of research that the do our labs done. But I'd imagine implementing that I mean, you can't do that unless right now, I mean, this is an Golding approach to the market. And I'm sure that the solution will have an Hans over time. But at the moment nothing just sticking with what we got. I think that this provides a huge benefit to the and enables them to reduce risk enormously and very rapidly. I think just having the authentication the picture of the point in state, it's in the control policy driven controllers to access to applicastions is such a big win. I and we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the very good and useful. Absolutely. Especially when we're talking about these these basics that as we were both chuckling about earlier are actually very hard to do. Now, you've actually got behind a bridge or wall just worn listeners right now, but you've got this zero trust valuation. God that do is put together we involved in that one. This was put together by product team. And they've done a really good job in putting together a briefing on some of the factors. You might want to look at when you want to think about putting in a zero trust solution based on the kind of approach that ju- half. So it'll take you through how to stop issues trust look at devices policies, and then looking at how you would roll that out through the workforce. So I think it's a really good started guide to how you might implement the solution. I wonder just how quickly this is picking up steam, right? Because when I when I talked to see soy's there are some come. It seems like the ones who come from the more technical backgrounds like the pen test atone, see. So they're the ones who are in love with this approach. Right. And the whole thing is like, okay. Moving to to be on Corp style approach to zero trust all approach, and we're trying to stem, the bleeding as best. We can from all the legacy crap. Right. Because they see this is like God, I'm gonna choke on these words, but they see this as being relatively future-proof approach. It seems like a mutually agreed. Like, this is the right way to do things. But then, you know, you speak to other c- sows, and they just say all look what, you know, zero trust that science fiction, you know, way it we're just too busy just running around trying to trying to get the basics done. We don't have time for this these fancy shenanigans. Like how you selling the concept to those who just think it's all a bit too hard. I think you have to look at what the overall driving benefits are the surprise him. One is simplification. You can have a very simple solution, which I think this is important as well. It involves the the user it invest the users part of the solution rather than being part of the problem. So I think it's a really useful approach in terms of bringing the rest of the organization side, you can say to the us a year now part of of making the organization more secure. So I think that that's one very important fact of cici's who are always battling about how do we get people inside? So I just trained authentication action. You know, like an assertion of a degree of trust in and end point. I mean that that works, right? Absolutely. And in you can say to the people in the organization, well know, you're part of our solution. You're making our organization let's say by by carrying out this simple task. So I think that's a very important point to put across. But we've also found that it's the simplification of. The the delivery of the solution through the use of a SaaS based delivery model, and that makes it a lot easier and that she don't have to then go and stop putting huge amounts of change control and an issues like that. So it just makes it easy. So making it easy for the user and making it easier to deploy is I think one of the most track to features to ceases looking at zero trust from his identity driven point too. There's a long discussions going on about network segmentation, data segmentation and so forth. I think those longer term projects they have value. But they take a lot longer than the ease and simplified simplified implementation of solution such as this one zero trust cops against that hall idea to write like the idea is forget about forget about network architecture. You can't trust networks just treat everything like it's on a house in a hostile place. I think it also cuts across where the applications sit as well. Because don't forget many of the organizations today are now dot in cloud solutions with that that own up location the cod or a completely cloud based SaaS solution. He says he's a much easier sell when you're talking about cloud deployments. Isn't it? Absolutely. And to be able to give the coverage of secure access or trusted access to all of those hyper environments. I think becomes a lot clearer for ceases to see as a very great simplification of security. Now, look, I just want to end this interview by tying it back to one of the earlier questions, which is we got this situation where people are all jumping on board as I call it Eliot the zero trust hype train, do you think there's some this climate to claim zero trust could actually dilute the value or dilute the perceived value of the approach right because I would hate to see that happening because I'm actually a big fan of deep Rimma terrorize ation as we used to call it before it was called zero trust. Yes. I definitely remember the deeper matere is Asian days of the Jericho forum. I think that you have to remember thinking is being going into this say from the early T thousands. We've been thinking about how to adopt this approach to security will get derailed. No. I don't think it will. I think that there's a momentum behind it. Now where more and more Caesar's, I talked to are thinking of this basic issue because they're always going to get in nowadays that breaking just look it. How do we minimize the risk rapidly to the organization in a way that is simple for the user and simple to implement? They will be looking at that in order to reduce the risk of the organization and bring about the Jila jilting and flexibility. That's being demanded of them. So do I think that it'll be no I think the momentum is there. I think see says will be adopting this over the next eighteen to twenty four months as being almost astounded. Coach. Yeah. I do get that feeling as well. And you know, you look at the authentication market and not just you're right. Like everyone. There are some smart companies positioning themselves as like cloud authentication brokers and the doing, you know, doing cool stuff, right? Like, it's just really weird as someone who's been reporting on info sick like eighteen years or something. And you know, you start off your career, just, you know, every vendor is horrible. Nothing has ever been built by a practitioner, it's all just hideous stuff. And now here we are in twenty nine hundred and you see a product release, and you think cool I'm not used to that still. Yes. I think if you're a line against various principles, which is make it simple like simple and easy to the user democratize securities. We say then you will get a lot of buying from the security professionals. All right, Richard archdeacon. I am relieved to hear that the juggernaut. That is euro trust networks, we'll not be derailed by some of the oh God I've seen some. Pretty wacky climbs. And I really hope that the market gets educated enough quickly enough to be able to call people out for that that sort of stuff because it drives me nuts as you can tell, but which can thank you very much for joining us on risky business to have a bit of a chat about zero trust and what's happening in the world zero trust. It's been a lot of fun. Thanks. That was Richard archdeacon of duo security big thanks to him for that. And big, thanks to joy security for its sponsorship of the risky business podcast. The last few years they make really good stuff too. So yeah, you can check them out at duo dot com. If you're looking for an easy way to roll out to. I'm going to say it day, the best choice straight up and that he's for this week's show. I do hope you enjoyed it until next week Patrick. Thanks for listening.
Does Middle East Peace Require a Two-State Solution or a Palestinian Defeat? A Debate
"Welcome to the reason podcast. I'm Todd krainin does Middle East peace require a two state solution or a defeat of the Palestinian movement. That was the question posed at a recent public debate hosted by the SoHo forum for the affirmative Alon giorno, a fellow and director of policy research at the iron rand institute argued that the Palestinian movement is irredeemably corrupt and must be defeated as a necessary condition to achieve peace. Danny Shearson, a US army strategist and former history instructor at West Point argue that most Palestinian organizations, including HAMAs are more willing than ever to make reasonable compromises for peace except a two-state solution, and at least tacitly recognize Israel's right to exist. It was an Oxford style debate in which the audience votes on the resolution at the beginning and the end of the event and the side that gains the most ground is victorious the debate was held on March eighteenth twenty nineteen at the subculture theater in New York City, gene. Epstein moderated. For the affirmative Alon giorno Alon, please come to the stage. Arguing for the negative Danny surgeon. Danny please come to the stage. Jane, please close the voting. Good evening. Thank you, gene for inviting me. Thank you Donnie for joining the debate. And thank you to the sponsors of times event. Tonight's resolution presupposes a detailed analysis of a hugely complicated conflict. That's the analysis. I offer in my book what Justice demands and here. Let me indicate one crucial point to start with so much of the debate. And the discussion about the is ready Palestinian conflict is bound up in religious, ethnic, nationalist and tribal premises. And these get us nowhere. Instead, I suggest we need to adopt a different approach we need to adopt. A secular individualist pro freedom perspective, that's the framework that I offered my book, and that's what I'll be arguing from tonight. And the reason for this is I believe, and I think you can demonstrate objectively that individual liberty is an objective moral ideal. It is true for all people in all places at all times. And I believe that freedom is the standard by which we should evaluate the adversaries in this conflict. So this individual's perspective that I'm arguing for leads us to discard collectivist and tribal premises and that whole way of thinking and one of the major steps in this way of thinking is we need to recognize a major distinction that I think it's blurred and completely ignored by many people. There's a crucial difference between the Palestinian community and the Palestinian movement. We have to keep these separate and distinct the community is a group of individuals who recognize themselves as part of the Palestinian identity, and they have features of a culture and the Palestinian movement is an ideological political enterprise. It has specific goals and on an ideology and it claims to speak for the Palestinian community. There is overlap between the two that's definitely true. But they can't be treated as interchangeable. They're not they're distinct, and we have to keep them distinguished when we think about this issue. This debate hinges on a moral evaluation of the adversaries. So let's us does the Palestinian movement. Seek freedom. Is it pro human progress is it concerned with writing wrongs done to Palestinian community? No, no. And no. I argued that the Palestinian movement is hostile to individual liberty including and especially the liberty of Palestinians themselves and by contrast. I argue Israel is the region's only free society, it has flaws and moral failings, really serious ones, and these need to be addressed and reformed, but none of these warrant the Palestinian movements aggression against it. If you want to understand this conflict. I think it's crucial to see that the Palestinian movement is an obstacle to peace. It's fundamental barrier to progress in this region, let me stress this debate does not hinge on the question of whether individual Palestinians have grievances. They do some of them are legitimate grievances. And they need to be redressed. I argue this in my book, for example, there are cases of Isreaeli land expropriation cases way, there's really police failed to protect landowners who are Palestinians from Jewish religious fundamentals. To attack them that is wrong. It's violation of the rule of law, and it has to be stopped. But even when you take all of these flaws and failings into account. They do not and particularly the grievances, which I regard as legitimate. They do not justify the militant goal of the Palestinian and move them. Which is to liquidate Israel. That's been true since the founding of the major factions of this movement the Palestinian movement in a word has exploited. The people that claims to be serving and protecting and writing wrongs full in reality. The Palestinian movement. Is hostile to freedom and does not care about writing wrongs done to the people it claims to serve if you look at what is the Palestinian movement. What is it? Composed of there are two major wings, the Palestinian Liberation Organization or the PLO and HAMAs Islamist wing both were founded with a shared goal of bringing an end to Israel's a society both are hostile to Bright's and individual freedom, and they try they actively now in the present day, not in some future state that they are claiming to seek right now, they're trampling the rights of their own people. The PLO runs the Palestinian Authority, which is an interim quasi state was supposed to be a step toward full sovereignty. And this is mostly in the parts of the West Bank. It is addicted to'real thar Teheran regime. The president of this organization. This entity is Mahmoud Abbas, he his four year term as president ended about ten years ago. And he is still in power and he's not leaving. He's going to appoint the next prime minister. It seems. If you try to live there, you'll realize quickly there is no freedom of speech. There's no freedom of association. If you criticise boss who is the dictator in place. You may well be thrown in jail and God help you if you're a Christian, or if you're gay under the Palestinian Authority, you'll be hounded out if you make it out alive. And the Palestinian Authority moreover incites its own people to commit atrocities attacks against Israelis knife-attacks, car ramming and other kinds of violent actions. And they celebrate the perpetrators of these attacks as martyrs to the cause and the Palestinian Authority led by the PLO should be. We should note. This is what is considered by many people as the moderate wing of the Palestinian movement. So let's look at what people regard as beyond the pale HAMAs. This is the Islamist faction which runs Gaza, and it took over in a bloody coup in twenty seven it has injected Islam ideas into the area where rules, and it's conducted summary executions in the street, HAMAs rocket wars against Israel numerous times in two thousand eight two thousand twelve two thousand fourteen and there have been small skirmishes in between there. And of course, the rocket to rockets fired for. Gaza last week toward Tel Aviv. And HAMAs notorious for inciting people to commit suicide bombings and to celebrate their acts of destruction of other people this not only through the mainstream press HAMAs controls, but through children's programming magazines. It is inculcating really perverse ideas. So when you look at the Palestinian movement, you realize that this is a movement that is hostile to freedom that does not care about the lives of the people that governs, and this is a movement committed to liquidating a free society of basically free society in the region's only free society in the Middle East. That's what I'll I'll suggest what I argue in depth in my book. Now, let me stress I've argued that the Palestinian move is hostile free. And let me argue indicate some reasons to think that it is not concerned with writing wrongs actual wrongs done to Palestinians. In fact, you can see by the way, it's governing to the extent that has controlled extended house self-government in Gaza and parts of the West Bank. The Palestinian movement has inflicted its own forms of injustice, which I've mentioned there is no freedom of speech under its control minorities are persecuted horribly, religious and other minorities. But worse than this to the extent they have control over these people of the Palestinian community. The Palestinian movement is not really opposed to the kinds of crimes that it accuses Israel off such as arbitrary arrests censorship expropriation because it self is committing these these crimes against its own people in my book, I mentioned one notable example, which is a Qatari businessman who came to the Palestinian territories to open a Bank and help build out the. What was beginning to be a new state the Palestinian Authority, his Bank and his personal property were expropriated from him by the Palestinian Authority in broad daylight? And there are many other examples of this. Now, one of the thing to note about the Palestinian Authority, which again is the is the wing within the Palestinian movement that many people regard as deal with and the one would have bosses sort of is one of the people that is invited in visits the White House. He has that kind of diplomatic status under the Palestinian Authority. It is a crime to sell land to Jews. So this is defined by people's race their ethnicity, and it's the kind of punishment. You can get and people actually face. This punishment is hard labor for life and the maximum penalty is death. Just keep that in mind. So let me turn now to look at Israel briefly. What I want to argue here is that if you take seriously, the value human life, the value of human progress and freedom it's crucial to recognize a stark moral difference immoral inequality between Israel and the Palestinian movement Israel stands out as as as a basically free society one with many, flaws and moral failings. And yet it has freedom of speech at has religious, freedom intellectual freedom all citizens regardless of race or creed. Have the right to vote and be part of government. Now, there are going to be objections to Israel's moral standing and. On -ticipant some of them here, which is that is an ethnic national state in that it's an apartheid state. I oppose the ethnic national elements of Israel regard, Israel as a combination of individualist elements that are good. And that's what leads it to protect individual rights and national ethnic elements and religious elements, which I got as a problem in a source of its failings. We can talk about the apartheid claim which deserves more attention in the question period. I invite you to ask me about that. I want to make the case for why think the main Barry here reaching moon, four towards pieces the Palestinian movement. To the extent that the current approach is being tried the two state solution. It's led to empowering the Palestinian movement is giving them mini state in effect in the West, Bank and Gaza, which is a militant regime that is hostile to the lives of the people that controls and retrying the peace process that leads to Tuesday's solution, which is the entrenched approach is going to lead to the same kind of outcome. It's not going to change until the the ideas that are animating, the Palestinian movement are changed or it gives up its goal, which is what I advocate. So the approach is being tried so far has only made the conflict. It's more people have died in violence since the signing of the famous peace process deal under Bill Clinton in two thousand in one thousand nine hundred ninety three then did in the twenty five years before that. So this is a bad attempt to to solve the problems. And I think it evades the character of the adversaries and particularly the Palestinian movement. What I'm advocating for. Instead what I'm suggesting is that it's a necessary condition to reach peace that the Palestinian movement be defeated. And this is because I think what's happening is it's a protracted war between two sides and wars typically, and if you look at history when one side gives up its goals when it puts down its arms as hopeless and its goal is an achievable, and that's what I'm suggesting needs to happen with the Palestinian movement. It needs to lose heart and needs to give up its so-called armed struggle. And it's jihad and through a combination of economic political and military pressure. The infrastructure Palestinian movement in the West Bank and the Palestinian in the Gaza Strip needs to be uprooted. This is a long term process. It's not going to happen overnight, and the crucial thing that has to happen is psychological or a mind shift people need to followers of the Palestinian movement, the leaders of the Palestinian need to abandon their goal of liquidating Israel, and creating a society that is an authoritarian one, which is what they've been acting on all this time. And a major thing that can be done from outside the conflict is that all of us in this room all of us who have influenced and particularly the governments that here in the US and in Canada and Europe need to with withdraw their moral endorsement of the idea that the Palestinian state is a goal to be achieved. Because what we've seen when it's materialized even to a small degree is that it is hostile to freedom, and it's a militant regime that is that seeks to undermine Israel withdrawing that moral sanction and financial support that makes it possible. I think is critical to reaching the point at which the Palestinian movement feels defeated and gives up its goal. Thank you very much. Janney Susan for the negative. Thank you. My opponent has undoubtedly laid out a passionate detailed defense of his rarely policy over the last half century. He's also highlighted the very worst aspects of what he dubs the Palestinian movement were his remarks merely an unopposed introduction to this rather complex topic. The very simplicity of the model would likely be persuasive. Unfortunately, as a veteran of two wars in the greater Middle East and budding scholar of Israel Palestine, I found matters in this region, far more nuanced and thorny than all that it is for this reason that I must oppose this resolution tonight along with the black and white thinking that informs it's very framework. I cannot promise you any meat models, nor any simple reassuring solutions this intractable conflicts, rather, I hope to present a middling approach to conflict resolution that accepts as genuine the fears for Israel security, but does not dismiss the plight of the Palestinians outright. Mine is a path of empathy. And then. Attempt at even handedness for one side it solutions, such as my Ponant is crafted here tonight will never bring peace to the holy land. That said the Israeli Palestinian crisis. As many of us know is a veritable third rail in American political discourse. So it may be necessary for me to start with a few disclaimers. I speak as someone who is not anti semitic who opposes antisemitism in all the ugly forms of takes and who believes the Israeli state has a right to exist. Now that that's out of the way I have to address the controversial caveat Palestinians for both moral and strategic reasons also deserve state sovereignty and quivalent civil rights, and that should be the stated position of libertarians all real small c conservatives and my debate opponents night, Israel is neither Saint nor Satan. Neither is Palestine. These are two fluids societies that shift with domestic and international win. Nds the two sides. Do not operate in manichean world of good evil. Duality? No matter how much some of us would like them to in that vein. I shall oppose sites resolution on the basis of three major arguments. I I reject as the sept- of the very term Palestinian movement, especially as Mr. giorno has pejoratively defined it this movement is no single thing. And it certainly not nearly as simple or as evil Islamist jihadi as the labels that my opponent prefers second. I shall demonstrate that the vast majority of Palestinian organizations even us can and should be dealt with as potential partners in negotiations. Indeed. Despite all the blood spilt in recent years, both and HAMAs are more willing than ever before to make peace along the pre nineteen sixty seven borders, accept the two state solution, and at least tacitly recognized Israel's right to exist. Further indicate that it's often been Israel, especially under its contemporary, right wing. That has provoked moss broken truces and otherwise sought to undermine the very existence of a popular democratically elected Palestinian movement. And Finally, I argue that peace necessitates, not a fantastical notion of quote, defeat of the Palestinian movement, which is neither plausible nor grounded in fairness, rather, what peace does require is the isolation and calm and condemnation of most terroristic elements of Palestinian resistance, but it's a man's that we recognize and condemn is rarely policies that also hinder conflict resolution indeed in some cases making impossible. And that's what's missing from my opponent's opening remarks, the notion that Israel has a role to play in reforming in the way. It's been laid out the Palestinians are evil their movement. At least they're leaders are all evil they can't be dealt with. And I reject that. So finally, I'll argue that peace necessitates. That any solution. The holy land will not be forthcoming unless the Israeli government or hopefully successor administration, reverses course in its militarization and esscalation of the occupation regime and opens its mind and heart authentic negotiation with all components of the multifaceted Palestinian movement. So let us begin my first assertion the resolutions problematic definition of the Palestinian movement. I mean, take a moment to read to actually read the resolution tonight that staggering sentence that my opponent has affirmed I'm gonna break down three main parts of it first off it's clear from the resolution, and for my opponents remarks that he places Israel and Israel as at the center of this model to him Israel represents everything. Good in the world jocks deposed with all the evil Arab states of the region. Israel, and Israel is can do no wrong. This is problematic. Not only because there are good people and good faith movements in the Middle East. I've met many of them, but because he lets Israel off the hook for its own flawed policies human rights abuses, and sometimes on democratic tendencies in the territories educated Isreaeli should seek to improve their own society. Just as Americans should it doesn't make you unamerican unpatriotic to critique American foreign policy. I will say the same applies to Israel. But you'll hear very little of that tonight. This is a one-sided tale that my opponent is telling of good Israelis and bad Palestinian's or good. It's really movements and bad Palestinian movements and deal quite you'll hear quite little of the somehow absent Palestinians from opponents night. The Palestinians are almost the elephant in the room. No one there speak of then there's the term defeat. I must say that as a combat soldier and officer having conducted fruitless counterinsurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is remarkably similar to duty in the West Bank. And god. In fact, we study at the very term, quote defeat has come to seem rather absurd. Highly unrealistic, how can one people how can defeat a people's movement can one even win a true counterinsurgency? I'm quite doubtful and sewer most military historians, but that's precisely the assumption of this resolution that Israel can and should defeat the Palestinians. This ladies and gentlemen is fantasy. It's wishful thinking at best. Lastly, we return to the problematic phrase Palestinian movement. My opponent believes today's Palestinian movement is the enemy an entity worthy only of destruction. I think that when he looks at Palestine Palestinians, and their organizations what he sees ISIS that Palestinian equals Islamo-fascism Jihadism, but Palestinians, okay are little more than terrorists in this telling and that's just not accurate beyond being wildly inaccurate. It's very very dangerous. Conception it leads to a lack of. Pathy for lack of concern with civilian lives. A demonstrable fact is this the vast majority of Palestinians, like the vast majority of Muslims are not civilian slaughtering. Terrorists Palestinians are a manifold diverse people. In fact, they're the most highly educated Arab people on the planet. Yes. There are monsters among them, but this is a small fraction of vigorous and beautiful hole. So the crux of this first argument is that the very framework the very language and construction of the resolution is poorly defined factually inaccurate, unachievable and one-sided so much. So that on this point alone. One should vote down the resolution, nevertheless, let's turn my second major argument that the vast majority of Palestinian organizations, even HAMAs can and should be dealt with as potential partners in negotiation. Service in America's never ending post nine eleven wars has taught me that. Sometimes oftentimes one must work with talk to and compromise with certain various actors the US military tried quote, defeating Suni Islam, oh, nationalism in western Iraq for four full years with little or no success to the tune of two thousand dead soldiers only when forward thinking colonels and a willing general David portray S began talking to the Sunni tribesmen and dividing them from the most extreme elements of the insurgency did the US army achieve a drop in violence. This mind, you was very hard pill for us the swallow. In fact, many of our new partners in the Sunni tribes had literal American blood on their hands still. There was no alternative course with any hope to lower violence, ultimately protect US soldiers and bring a semblance of peace then to work with the Muslims of the region work with the SUNY Islamists in much the same way Israel must deal. With any Palestinian individual organization that is ready to accept a long term truce and two-state solution. Why because there is no other path to peace. None isolating Fata or even HAMAs will alienate perhaps three quarters of the Palestinian people the notion that upon the defeat of HAMAs leadership or leadership the Palestinians are just going to lay down. Okay, and give up and form some sort of new version of themselves one that looks like an Israeli zipped up inside of them is fantasy. To keep on. This path will freeze any movement towards peace increase violence and birth. And I promise you birth generation far more radical than the past Palestinian generation, even HAMAs the unit dimensional villain of Mr. giorno movement is a far more complex and evolving movement than it gives them credit for though, it form doesn't Islamist response to twenty years of Israel occupation. In nineteen eighty-seven though at times after nineteen Ninety-four engaged in suicide attacks on his Rayleigh civilians, and though it's early charter denied the right of Israel to exist. Even HAMAs has changed and has come a long way in reality. The Masa twenty nine thousand nine is not the HAMAs nine hundred eighty seven and the organization can be dealt with rather than quote defeated. Indeed, it has often been Israel that broke truces and provoked him us such as in the two thousand four Israeli assassination of HAMAs founder Shaykh Ahmed Yassin a quadriplegic in a wheelchair this targeted killing. Came on the heels of Jassem having stated listen to this HAMAs could accept a Palestinian state in the West, Bank and Gaza Strip. Furthermore, that leader had also offered a term truce in exchange for an Israeli withdrawal from the occupied. Territories. This was significant shift in policy that should have been capitalized on instead Israel turned violence, refusing then as a refuses now to deal with and compromise with him us. What's more in two thousand six moss? Published a manifesto that lacked any reference to the old goal of eliminating Israel, another positive change in the direction of negotiation. Instead, both the US and Israel punish Tomasz and by extension. The majority of Palestinian people who voted for them in the Gaza Strip both and post-sanctions withheld much-needed funding, the New York Times, certainly not known for any anti-israeli bias concluded that this was all part of the plan quote to destabilize the Palestinian government. So that newly elected HAMAs officials will fail. Elections will be called again. The sounds a lot like a coup except the coup rather than being HAMAs taking over appears to be Israel in the United States, overturning democratically sanctioned election. The bottom line is that by associating the Palestinian movement with the dicta to'real nature of secular, Arab states and the violence of his Llamas extremism. My opponent denies the legitimacy of the Palestinian struggle. I. Reject the simplicity and the factuality of that assumption. I'll now turn to my third and final argument that Israel has its own flawed policies. I'm gonna flip the resolution here and assert that aspects not everything about Israel. But aspects of the Israeli movement must be reversed before true peace is possible. Among others. These are one a perennial military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza to an illegal settlements regime, which is a colonization of the West Bank. Three a brutal blockade of the Gaza Strip and four an unacceptably disproportionate lack of concern for Palestinian civilian casualties. Now. There's no time for history lesson. I have maybe three four minutes left, but let me briefly address these grievances. I it is an indisputable fact that the founding of Israel in nineteen forty eight and the expansion of Israel after the nineteen sixty seven war created millions of this place Palestinian refugees. Now, my saying this does not mean that Israel must give it all back, that's unrealistic or cease to exist. That would be. Genocide. But rather it recognizes the genuine suffering and grievance of the Palestinian people that there are two sides in this argument. Mine is the side that says there are guilty parties on both sides. But there are those we can work with on both sides. But you don't have to take my word for it considering nineteen sixty nine interview with the Israeli defense minister and national hero mush on where he admitted we came to this country, which was already populated by Arabs. And we are establishing a Hebrew. That is a Jewish state here Jewish villages were built in place of Arab villages. You do not even know the name of these villages, and I do not blame you because the geography looks no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist. But the Arab villages are not there either. This is the one place there is not one place built in this country that did not have a former era population. Then there's the settlements, gene. The bottom line is this until Israel dismantles it settlements and returns that's land to the rightful Palestinian ownership than it is in violation of. International law and impeding the peace the idea that the Palestinians are going to lay down and accept any sort of solution. While massive massive numbers was rarely citizens upwards of five hundred thousand or living in these settlements is it's fantasy I can tell you. These people are not going to quit. That's not. How insurgencies ends historically. The brutal blockade of Gaza is is enormously cruel in fact to demonstrate the cruelty and premeditation of this blockade. Let us consider that. A prominent is rarely governing official actually took to literally calculating the number of calories. A person in Gaza needed less. They're being outright famine. Someone one of the aides to Prime Minister Ariel. Sharon, reportedly joked that because they voted the wrong way for HAMAs Palestinians would undergo something like an appointment with the doctor. They will get a lot thinner, but they won't die. Let me conclude. My opening remarks in a rather sullen way. I would be remiss if I did not recognize the historic crimes perpetrated against Jews and of the worst prime world history. The holocaust for those reasons. Among those reasons, I believe Israel has the right to exist and to be secure. But here's what I also believe there is a second side of this conflict. There are Palestinians with genuine grievances with leaders who can be negotiated with and should be negoti with they can not be defeated, nor should they be. If there's any sense of equity and fairness, thank you. For the rebuttal. The Palestinian movement. I said just needs to be distinguished from the Palestinian people, and I didn't really sink until amplify that point. There's no question that they're Palestinians who have suffered wrongs. And I think they need to have those wrongs redressed, but let me focus on the claim that the Palestinian leadership in the movement. Because that seems to be the crux of your argument Palestinian movement is not one Olympic. I did not say that it was uniform. I said, they're two major wings and. Correct to quoted with his Llamas movement. But it's not the same as ISIS. There's Llamas movement is rather large. It includes both Saudi Arabia and Durant which are conflicted, countries and ISIS which both of them dislike. The Palestinian movement originated, primarily as an ethnic nationalist movement. And then it morphed over many years into what is now primarily religious Islam est movement, and you can see that this is documented in the rise of Josse within the territories. And it's reflected in the rising fortunes of HAMAs. Now, it is important to recognize what HAMAs goals are and what they remain. So it is certainly true that HAMAs issued member documents manifestos and the most recent one was not twenty six twenty six was actually twenty seventeen I believe where it issued a policy statement. And this was read as HAMAs moderating. Now, I will. I will concede HAMAs has changed. It's changed in tactical ways, for example at joined the elections in twenty six which won by a landslide. These are the tactic. Maneuvers that it is done and the most recent one in two thousand seventeen was to insulate itself from the stench of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was very ill, repute and Egypt. Egypt being on the border of Gaza and from cutter which does not like the Muslim Brotherhood, and once and that HAMAs wants to be funded by HAMAs. I think retains its goal it has not disavowed its goal of liquidating Israel. None of those documents do that when you read them closely. What it does it presents itself in terms that are meant to how shall I put it to goal and full people into thinking that HAMAs somehow deal with? I don't think that's true. And I think the principle that you can deal with anyone. This is a very common principle in diplomacy. It's false. You cannot. It's not true that you can make a deal with anyone. And that there are factions within HAMAs that are better to the point where you can deal with them. That's just not valid. And you can see the evidence for that. When the p because we had the same argument about the Palestinian Liberation Organization changing its position and accepting Israel, and it went through on number of hoops to do that and prove itself nine hundred ninety eight actually when exactly as you. How one would expect it was a lie and the same thing happened in nineteen Ninety-three when ARA fats stood on the stage with Bill Clinton and Robin. Not gain was ally. It didn't the Palestinian movement did not then and has not since repudiated its goal. Even if in tactical ways, it is moderated its positions to seem more appealing and. And to lure people back to the negotiating table. What happened when this was taken on faith is that the Palestinian movement was given a quasi state in the Palestinian Authority which enabled it with money and arms to carry out. What was then called the second intifada rather war against Israel by suicide bombers and other kinds of attacks. That was one of the most lethal outbreaks of violence there has been in this conflict. Let me mention you raise some of the historical points, which I invite people in the audience raise the question period, where we can have more discussion of it. I think it's important to recognize that in fact. The grievances are treated as well. They're obviously wrong Ryo there his real wrong here. I think it's I favor of nuance. And that's why I took me a book to argue my point. I think you're missing some of those including with the settlement, which is think cannot be treated as a uniform phenomenon and I'm certainly not in favor of Israeli policy. I'm not here to defend it. I'm arguing for Israel's position as a free society to the extent it's free and for as long as it's free info long as it's. Carrying out policies are constant with that. I do not support it. I don't support all the policies that is knocking and I oppose many of them as you'll find in my book. Thank you. Thank you. So I have about five minutes through dress some of the rebuttals from the last two statements from my opponent. Who is very well informed and has written excellent book on the topic. I have one question why is it and this is really hypothetical? Israel's state to give to the Palestinians, the whole framing seems problematic. It seems that if Israel has a right to exist. There's a right and equivalent right for Palestine to exist yet in this telling it is Israel that somehow has the ability the right even to grant what's been called a quasi state to the Palestinians, which is little more than an open air prison in many ways, which is little more than a collaborationist regime in many ways. My Ponant spoken as early remarks about a fr- appro, freedom perspective, and I agree that that should be the framework, but what about the life and situation of actual living. Breathing Palestinians in Gaza today who lacks civil rights. Who lack the basic freedoms of even Arabs within Israel who already don't have the same rights as Jews within Israel. But who live under military occupation fifty years after the nineteen sixty seven war in defiance of every single ruling of any international court or national organization now perhaps one hundred eighty countries in the world are all just anti semitic and only Israel in the United States. Correct. Or maybe there's something to these grievances for not just throw people, but for their movement, which represents them I agree with my opponent that this should hinge on the moral interpretation. But immoral interpretation would again make one wonder why there are no civil and political rights and no Palestinian state sovereignty. My opponent also says that the Palestinian movement is an obstacle to peace. But what about Isreaeli obstacles except for just a vague notion of Israel's not perfect for my opponent. There's no list of what the Israeli obstacles to peace. Are. Why is there? Nothing about this. I'd argue the silence. On this issue is more telling than anything. My opponent says I think it's a fallacy that the Palestinian movement is dedicated to the destruction of Israel in nineteen Ninety-three actually before then the PLO did accept the right of Israel. Exist did accept the Tuesday solution even HAMAs while didn't change its full original document has made it clear that it's willing to accept the two states solution from its highest leadership levels. And that it will accept the longterm truce. The truth of the matter is Israel never made steps towards the final settlement that nineteen ninety three's. Oslo was supposed to create if the Palestinian movement is so harmful to Palestinians. Why did they voted in? Why did so many of them turned to him OSs? Could it be that part of it was frustration with the lack of progress towards a Palestinian state? Could it be the intransigence of Israel in many cases, not every time? Not every Palestinian leader is a Saint not every Israeli leader as villain. But the reality is there are two sides to this story. There are two sides to the situation. The question for me is what if Palestinians vote the wrong way, it appears either have to believe in democracy or not democracy appears okay for his rallies because we can we're happy with the way they vote. But what about when the Palestinians democratically elect moss into government who then has the right to determine that HAMAs cannot be dealt with. Like, I said in Iraq and Afghanistan, we've dealt with people who literally had the blood of our soldiers on our hands and it worked and we didn't like it one bit. I still don't. But what I knew is that we're never going to defeat the Iraqi nationalist movement in Iraq. We're never going to defeat militarily the Taliban Afghanistan. Good luck the Soviets tried. We've been trying folks spoiler does not. It's not going to happen. They're not going to just give up and roll over. This is not going to happen. It is a historical from a military history. Sampling. Putting down their arms is not how movements and compromise and politicization of movements is how they end. So these steps of him off towards negotiation are the signs of possibility for peace take the Irish Republican Army after thirty years of being told that the IRA will never ever settle for peace. They didn't just lay down their arms. They were brought into the movement so much. So that today members of parliament in Britain used to be IRA brigade commanders in Northern Ireland, but the British swallowed their pride and realized they had to deal with people who had blood on their hands. Otherwise, they would fight this war for another eleven hundred years. And that's the reality. Do the Palestinians have some sort of biological predilection for evil. I think not perhaps there is a historic injustice and some role the Israelis are playing in this. I think that the silence on the issue of Isreaeli perpetuation of violence, and you've been rights abuses is instructive. Thank you. Thanks to you. Both we go to a part of the question apart of the evening. I'm take moderators prerogative to ask a couple of questions. I two Danny Sirs because you can come in as well either. You you've affirmed your own support of Israel's right to exist. And was saying that most recently HAMAs seems to be in bigamous about that you say that in there. Moss's Basit document. They still do they deny is right exists. My particular question. Shop is what is your best evidence? That Maas has affirmatively stated as you have stated that Israel has a right to exist. No, no. We want to this recording for study. Okay. That's a great question. Well for positive evidence. I like evidence almost guy there have been three wars in Gaza. Since two thousand eight operation cast lead was two thousand eight. There was another war in two thousand twelve and other in two thousand fourteen the US State Department actually recognized as well as an international terrorists analysis organization in Israel that the the HAMAs fighters actually showed. A fair amount of acceptance of the long truce, and it was actually Israel that broke the truce each of those cases. So in all three cases, Israel, actually conducted raisins Gaza broke the truce at which point rockets were then fired very inaccurately into Israel. And then of course, the response was overwhelming Palestinian casualties. Thirteen hundred seventy-one in operation cast lead of which seven hundred seventy two civilians and some three hundred twenty civilians were children. So I think what we can do is look at how a mosque acts rather than what's in their founding document HAMAs dealing with radicals in their own ranks, they're dealing with moderates ranks, and they're dealing with the folks who want to work with Israel who want to work with the Palestinian Authority. So when I think we're seeing is HAMAs waging battle because it's a fluid organization to maintain the truce, and what we know is HAMAs is capable of maintaining a long-term truce. It is as capable of holding a longterm truce as Israel which. At this point is enough. From my perspective to negotiate with doesn't mean we have to fall in love with moss. We have to deal with the reality that the win elections, and they're going to have to be dealt with on some level come into Ulan to that answer. Okay question. Do you eland? And then I'm gonna give it over to either you to the audience, you said a couple of times that they are a legitimate Palestinian grievances. That should be re dressed on could you elaborate on those grievances? That should be specifically re dressed. Sure. Can I be heard? Yes. I mean, I mentioned to when I think they're important because they speak to the moral framework that I'm bringing. One of the worst things that's happening in Israel right now is that Jewish fundamentalists are trying to illegally subtle land in. I think that is wrong it, violates Lloyd Israel violation of the rule of law and one of the ways they do this is basically squat in English law. Squatting is when you just take over someone's property, and you sit there until they exclude them they do this. And then they expect the government to come protect them, and they have accomplices within the within various levels of government. I think this is wrong it essentially steals land that does not belong to belong to the Palestinians and Israeli government has removed. Many of these illegal outposts and settlements and undis- mantle them by force. And I think that's one of where this real wrongs done to Palestinians right now, not an industry. Living breathing people now are suffering. Another kind of that happens is not only. Those kinds of squatting situations, but attacks on Palestinian orchards that are carried out a gain often by religious fundamentalist Jews, and the point of that is you destroy someone's all have grove whether orchards, and you basically ruined their farm, and that's destroying their property, and they should be the perpetrators of those crimes have to be stopped and put in jail and punish full extent of the law. I think there are so one of the things I would say about grievances is that. Danny mentioned the refugee problem. I think the refugee problem is probably the -fornia one. And that's one where I think it's really complicated tangle because pot of problem, which Danny hasn't really brought out in his historical. Snapshot is that what led to that? Wall was initiation of war by neighboring Arab states nine hundred forty eight and the couple -bility for that has been invaded over time and that the temps to resettle those refugees in attempt to reduce the number to compensate them. There will all pushed aside and refugees that are settled in Lebanon, for example, are in a situation that is worse than Gaza. If you wanna place with a wall around it and the com- bring in cement and the become citizens go to look at Lebanon. That's that is a real crime. And I've heard nothing about the crimes against the Palestinians done by the Arab regimes that refused to give them any kind of sucker or. Citizenship or even get a job. If you're in Lebanon. So I think they're real grievances. Some of them are one of the problems with refugee. Grievances that it's been inflated there. There are seven times more effigies now off seventy plus years than there were at the time of this war, and one reason for that is a politicized way in which is defined. You could be about you can be a citizen of Jordan who's fully resettled in Jordan, and yet becomes a refugee, and you can be a refugee who's in refugees camps. There's something really wrong with the way that's counted full. And so I think the politicize ation of that grievance makes it really hard to untangle and was part of the Palestinian movement. This is uniform, including the supposed moderates, they hold it. It's an absolute wholesale right of return. So so basically six million people have to come back into Israel. That is something really fishy about that. I think you have to agree, and that's not a grievance that I think you can easily remedy because you have to rethink about what happened in the history and figure out the culpability of all parties, not just Israel, which is usually the one who's painted as the villain. Join come in. Keep. I think it's important that we note that largely the reason there are so many more Palestinian seven times as many refugees mostly towards a natural high birth rate. And what's what's not mentioned is that there were plans in place by the Israeli military or the nascent Isreaeli military to conduct the cleansing in Palestine in nineteen forty eight the most esteemed Isreaeli historians like Benny Morris admitted this David Ben Gurion has admitted to it. He's been on the record. I can read quotes this was a historical crime. It pales in comparison to the holocaust and anytime that people try to acquaint them, I think they're wrong. But it doesn't deny that there was truly agreeance there. And also, yes, many of them may have become out of necessity citizens of Jordan. But I would imagine that people who left Poland in response to World War Two though, they quickly became citizens in the United States, if they could would still consider themselves refugees from Poland. Now as for rights of return. I think it's very interesting. First of all, I don't think that six million people can actually come into Israel. That's going to have to be arbitrated with a symbolic right of return and compensation. It's just it's not possible for Jewish to remain both democratic and Jewish while leading six million Palestinians. I recognize that. But you know, who does have a right of return based on religion, Israel, a right of return for any Jew worldwide. So what I'm interested in is. Why does that right? Which is based purely on religion, ethnicity, why does that exist? But the right for Palestinians, whose grandparents were kicked out of the villages should be so easily dismissed I think it's a it's a fascinating dichotomy, and it's problematic come into. I'm glad you raised that. Because the right of return is Israel's immigration law that permits as you said instant or almost instant citizenship to Jews. I think that's a real problem. I don't think we can treat that as the principle by which to to hold both sides countable to a lot of countries have kind of rule, but I think it's a problem. I think it reflects the motivations for a stylish ING Israel. But I think. Just a couple of corrections on some of the things you said. Benny Mars does not think as far as I read him that there's a premeditated plan to cleanse the land. I think he's ridden on the country that that's the opposite. And in fact, the evidence, and I think it's worth reading other historians to that part of what happened. There was a lot of people who laughed as a consequence of the war. And it was military contingencies led to them being to fleeing. Now, the high number of refugees is not exclusively birth rate related. It is the fact that unique among refugees in history that we know of their defined as you can be a refugee through your father's bloodline. So if you're born to sewn refugee, even if you're not born present in that place where the war happened your refugee, and so are your children through the male line. That's not the same standard that the UN high commission for FUD's for other conflicts hole. So part of the issue is it's a politicized definition of refugees. Now, I wanna just knowledge that. They are refugees who were invited to come back and resettled. And that's definitely a fact, but I don't think either side should be held to this idea that. It's is real has a right of return. And that's what we should hold it. I think it's a problematic rule, and I don't think it's easy to say what Israel's immigration rules should be. But I think those are very different things in understanding issue. Okay. And then also, I know we have people in the audience to ask questions. Do you guys want to wait forty questions? What do you have any questions? You want to ask you other? Do you? Because. Question Janik, Danny what what do you take to be the basis for Israel's right to? List? Well, that's an interesting point. Because one could argue that it's a problematic framing for any state have the right to exist. I think that the the historical wrong against the Jewish people which is unique to a certain degree, especially in the aftermath of the holocaust meant that. There was a global need an understanding among the states of the post World War Two world that there was a special situation, and thus Israel should have a right to a sovereign Jewish state. Which is why there was a UN commission, which is why there was a partition which even though ours were still the majority gay fifty five percent of the land of Israel. This was problematic for a number of reasons since his rallies or Jews only seven percent of the property of that time. But I do think that the special circumstances of the Jewish people made it a global norm and accepted global norm. By most states that later form the UN to have an Israeli state. Now, I will admit that. There are intellectual arguments against any state. Having the right to exist. I choose on my own to accept the Israeli right to exist because of the historic wrongs done to the Jewish people. You're the question asked. Do you want to? The microphone microphone, please. So. Would you please define what you mean by the quote, defeat of the Palestinian movement? How do you see this proceeding and how long will it take show? So I think it's a multi generation process. It doesn't happen overnight. It requires the kind of shift that happened. After World War Two with the Nazi regime in Germany and Japan. And essentially what it requires? I don't think it requires necessarily a large-scale conflict that's armed and violent. But I think it requires a psychological shift. The abandonment of goal that is animating the hostilities on one side in mine Alice's, the Palestinian movement is animated by goal of making the whole of the territory that is now Israel ruled by Palestinians, and that means from the river Jordan to the Mediterranean. That's the phrasing. That's commonly used. And I think the achievement of that requires. Sustained pressure and communicating that. Violence is not going to pay which is the way in which negotiations, which you're you seem to advocate for really encourage. So the peace process model was we talked with anybody we make pretended the Palestinian movement was deal with and that they were moderating and we sat down with numerous times, we meaning those ratings and then led and sponsored by the US on the premise that you should speak to anyone. And I think that is empirically false. What that led to is. They were given the encouragement to think that while we spent decades talking his wral didn't get as far as we wanted. But hey, we just got invited to the diplomatic negotiations. Look at the the way which we've elevated and given a dignity we've never earned Arafat was a pioneer of international terrorism and violence. I mean that I think it cannot be disputed and here he was celebrated as somebody who you know, he's given that up. What has he has? He really. So I think that was a misconception and. In fact, with those kinds of negotiations led to was no is a rewarding of that kind of behavior and a continuation and funding of it over time. So I think what you wanna do is reverse that so defeat means not rewarding that behavior, but showing that the more you do that kind of thing more you attack the less likely ever to reach your goal and it's a lost goal. So it's a long term process. It requires shifting the understanding of what's chief -able and that requires significant pressure over time. So. So you do you believe that they can be militarily defeated the Palestinian movement, and let me just say quickly because it seems like you're saying Palestinians have to wait more multi generations. I mean, it's been three or four generations. So now, we're saying it's gonna be multigenerational to defeat them. So now, a Palestinian refugee might have to wait seven or eight generations, but Japan as you mentioned got it sovereignty back in nineteen fifty two despite attacking Pearl Harbor and west Germany got it sovereignty back in nineteen fifty four and was armed and was given tanks and was put into NATO by nineteen fifty four. So it only had to go through nine years of occupation prior to regaining sovereignty. So I I'm wondering if you really believe that there is a military solution to the Palestinian resistance. I think that can be I don't think it has be military. But I think that the premise of your questions what I think is essential to challenge. And I want to raise that which is you seem to be operating on the premise of the Palestinians are entitled to state and your child. Jing me for saying, they don't, and you're that's part of your argument that I'm being one-sided. Well, let me make it explicit. I don't think the right to self-determination can mean that you are entitled to create your own tyranny and sell yourself, and the people that you regard as part of your group into slavery or into domination and authoritarianism there's no such right? And so long as that is what's animating the Palestinian movement. They should not be pursuing should not be permitted to pursue a state. Now, if there's a point at which in the future that is no longer the kind of state that they're working to build then fine. I'm I to favor the standard is you in order to to be justified in pursuing that the momentous step of creating a state, which means you have a monopoly on the use of force within the geographical area. That's momentus step. The only my view the only basis for that is you're actually going to create a state that protects freedom and or you're leaving. A situation which you don't have freedom you moving towards the situation with greater freedom, which is my view of sort of this central premise for Israel's basis, basically free society. If Palestinians really wanted that. And there was evidence for that. Then I would be in favor of it. I would say yes, go ahead. Build yourself a state created support it I'm not opposed to that what I'm opposed to the Palestinians demanding and idea the democracy is the all purpose solvent for making everything. Good because people enough people voted for it, which is completely wrong. If that's the principal then. Yeah, they should have a state, but that's not the principle. It has to be that. You're the only way that you can make sense of self determination for a group of people is they're trying to reach freedom. And that's not what the Palestinian movement has been pursuing. Now, we can talk about the situation which they live in today, which is really powerless in difficult. But I don't think there's evidence to think there's really no evidence that they've given us that what they're trying to do is move towards greater freedom. And that's that's the basis of my generation. And so the issue of how long do they have to wait, they have to wait until they change their mind about what kind of society, they wanna build Japan abandoned, its goals after World War Two with great deal pressure, as you know from probably from studying this and Germany was defeated both of those would defeat in. I think those are outstanding examples in history because it was so rapid, and the fact that the military defeat came first and what happened in Iraq, which I believe so first hand, I don't believe the surge, and that whole thing of handing out money really is solution. Yeah. So so that did not work. And I think we saw that with the rise of ISIS, which is I think of fruit of that attempt to solve Iraq by dealing with everybody. So the the issue is not how long they have to wait. It's what is the goal? And what does the stand by which you judge it? No comment and then. Well, I do have a comment about that. Which again, it feels like the Palestinians are being held to a different state than the Israelis who is to determine what the people want except for the people themselves through democracy. I agree that democracy is flawed. But turtles said it's the worst solution except for all the others potentially. In your books. Are you said that you believe that Palestinian grievances? Quote, cannot explain let alone justify the armed struggle of the Palestinians. But article fifty one of the UN charter recognizes quote, the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense and the protocol one addition to the Geneva conventions explicitly recognizes armed conflicts in which people are fighting against alien occupation. So I mean, one could argue that because the Palestinians are still in a state of resistance still in a state of insurgency that you know, we've never really seen. What a Palestinian state would look like we've only seen the state lit of collaborationist regime that really looks like Swiss cheese because though the Israelis have pulled settlements out of Gaza, which minimal to begin with and pulled the furthest outpost out of the West Bank. Nothing has been done about the five hundred thousand Jewish Israeli settlers in the West Bank, which have turned if you've seen a map of the West Bank. It looks like a piece of cheese rather, delicious, quite frankly. I mean, it's a problem. One may come into two questions. Comment. So I I have a real objection to the idea that there's two different standards. I think there's one standard not is. Are you living up to you trying to achieve a free society? And I think the moxie is not a standard democracy is a tool as is a subordinate part of what makes society free. It's an essential part of it. But is not what makes something good or? Right. Just because people vote for it. Now, the issue is. The issue that you'll raising here, which is you're invoking international treaties and laws, and this whole regime of armed resistance and so forth. I question that I'm not entirely convinced that that into kind of hundred and eighty countries be wrong. Yeah. They can be wrong question is this moral principle, and I I would go further than that. Because I'm I should make put a cause on the table. I'm not a fan of the UN. I'm I think there are serious problems with the customary so-called laws of war, including the moral premises that govern the conduct of war. I think moralities essential in conduct of Warren having standards for what you do in the battlefield. But I think they're real problems with the standards that are in post because they disadvantage those who obey them and they empower those who disobeyed him. So this clear problem with that. And the idea that we treat you N bodies or international laws, essentially, like a papal pronouncement that it's unquestionable. I think that's a mistake. You have to rethink about. Is this right or not? And you you can make an argument that the Palestinians are trying to resist occupation. And I'm sure they hate being on the under occupation. Lot of them being told that this is all Israel's full the question. However is what is their life being like during key patient? I I'm sure none nobody in this room would choose to live under occupation. But did you know, and this is relevant. And I'm sure this is coming up in your reading of this is that have a bad, you might think or the occupation actually has been the material measurements of life. For Palestinians are better twenty years into the nation than they were before into the life expectancy infant mortality, the hookups drellich city were like that eight percent there were ninety percent within fifteen years. Now, you might say, yes, screw it. I still hate the Israelis that's fine. But if you're talking about individual human beings in the the welfare that they need to live. Then you can't argue that the they're not materially better off under patient. Even if they still dream of a Palestinian state. So the question is are they seeking freedom and a better life, and that to me is the standard by which we have to evaluate these things. You're gonna Chaz you guys respond, but you might wanna fit in your much too. Because the first question please face, it you question as a question, if you could the fact the major Danny for service, and hopefully he'll on. Dual citizenship is work. Well for you. It's hard to believe I'm over enough to beat both of your grandfathers you have. But I I I. I was brought up with with the fact that was all was a Bank is was bankers was and at the same time. I was always taught to follow the money. And so it's not a steak that Arafat Yasser Arafat. He'll he'll left how many years over over ten years ago. He was killed on a special circumstances. But family has visions. And how what you question how do you expect to end a conflagration exist right now, especially when the the IRA who are really the Palestinians. I don't know where Palestine came from. It's not mentioned anywhere. What is your question? My question is how how you going to end the conflict that exists right now. If what's behind the behind the conflict is something that really is that we we could put off his. One thing that's relevant. If the question is about the. Economic conditions that the Palestinian leadership have enjoyed there is a difference. If she's worth noting that the the PLO of which I was the leader. And then hold a boss. They're much more in the model of the kind of secular Arab dictator who not only dominates people, but also exploited them economically. So there's definitely a great deal of documented graft and racketeering onto the Palestinian Authority. What the difference is though that HAMAs, and this is the speaks ideological character. One of the ways in which gained support and credibility is that it's seen as uncorruptible precisely because it's religious. I mean the way it gets funding from outside regimes according to its propaganda. It gets its money from cod, which is a kind of tie religious tied. Now, the reality is HAMAs does get outside funding. But essential issue is that the PLO is much more than a model of exploiting people economically as well. And the HAMAs. Definitely it makes a point of not doing that explicitly because that's part of its prestige do to come. But absolutely. I don't think that the conflict will and. Anytime soon. I don't think there will be a military defeat. My opponent keeps talking about how the only time you have a right to a state is if it's in favor of freedom in the word, freedom and freedom. And I think it's an excellent word. But what we don't have for the Palestinians any freedom to form own sovereign state. They've never had that at any point. Jordan is not same as Palestinians as you me. You want to ask the question just question to civil route. And you know at the intellectual ask for the economy. It is true that the economy of the occupied. Territories grew very rapidly specific in the nineteen seventies. But this was only tying the Palestinian to Israel's whims. And it was never accompanied by you know, any major internal development as its own society. So one major economic report noted, quote, the growth witness than the territories is fundamentally not not sustainable and ending. The occupation is the prerequisite for transforming the territory's economic attention into reality. You wouldn't make another comment just two brief comments. So. In my book. What I argue is that the Palestinians have not had the full expression of a state with full sovereignty. That's certainly true. I agree with that. But what you can measure is to the extent that they have achieved some measure of self rule some degree of govern self-governance. You can see that in several places the Palestinian Authority. The most recent nine hundred ninety four to the present the Gaza Strip from which Israel withdrew every laws person and left it to the Palestinians. So there's no patient left there, and you can see it as well in when the PLO set up bases on the border with Jordan and later set up bases under within the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, and all those cases commonalities in terms of the way, they governed which was authoritarian, and they had the practice of full control and arbitrary courts and just the kind of things that you don't want to see this got full expression to the fuller expression under the pal. Thority which is a step towards full state. So look if I get what you're saying, Donna that you want the Palestinians to have the room to create the kind of state that you think they should have. But I'd love to know, what is the evidence for thinking that it would be anything better than and in fact, not worse than what we see in the Palestinian Authority today and in Gaza because. Where do you see evidence for that? Do you to mention, of course, you know, what's really important is? We don't have the evidence for that. Because there has been no sovereignty for the Palestinians in anything, except the statelet that looks like Swiss cheese that is essentially a collaboration as the regime with the Israeli Palestinian have as much sovereignty as their masters. Give them and their masters are the ones with the American weapons and with the American money. The reality is they cannot militarily defeat Israel, but Israel cannot military defeat them. We don't know what real Palestinian sovereignty would look like because it has not existed since nineteen forty eight. Okay. Please say one thing of the plane. A bit later. We have questions questions from the go ahead. Please ask a question. Hello, my questions three long. You bays. A lot of yard amend about defeating movement in defect. How MAs wants to eliminate is Israel says but American law if someone wants to kill me doesn't give me the right person. So why do think Americans should support that defeat? The question. I get what we're dealing with a situation. That's not governed by American law and the principle is not. You have a right to kill the person. Tacking? You have a right to defend yourself. That's the principal. Now what I'm arguing for? And are you for it in more detail in the book than I do here is that understand what HAMAs about where the Palestinian movement has been doing since it came to the fore is it's a sustained campaign over time with that animating goal. Now, are they militarily position to destroy Israel? I don't think they are. But they would like to be and they've they've shown with their numerous attacks that that's what they're after into two essentially, psychologically, destroy Israel by terrorizing. And that's the goal. Myron isn't the right to self-defence now because this is a longstanding War, I think the way out of this conflict. I think it is solvable is if you give them to believe through action that their goals on a chief -able, and you can do that wars have ended because one side has given up its Goldens being led to believe that this is hopeless. I think that the idea that that's. Fantasy is ignoring the fact that we've seen this in the context, I mean World War Two ended not because we negotiated with an defeated them will were and we defeated the Japanese. Now, there's certainly a great deal of reluctant to fight and defeat people. I mean, Obama said he doesn't like to use the word victory, and Danny semi doesn't think that's a chief -able, and I agree. Iraq was a no win war. But it is not because we fought to win because we didn't fight to win. And I think many things to say about that. And I'm sorry that you had to suffer some of the consequences of that. Now. That's what I said. I mean, I've been arguing about the failure of American foreign policy in the Middle East for a long time. And I think it's a misconception to think you con- and wars through defeat I can assure you that I fought to win the reality. The reality is there was no victory over the Iraqi people so long as we tried to create a country in our own image. The reality was we violated Iraqi sovereignty and so long as we did. So there would be forever insurgency, correct World War Two ended. But it was a conventional war declared between powers, but every one of those countries involved in World War Two that held colonies every one of them lost those colonies too much less technologically advanced militaries because national movements to not easily die. Question next question. I I don't have time to. I challenge your your understandings who's you who you who whose gestion to Alon to challenge your understanding of the Palestinian Authority. I've been there a lot. And I've studied a lot end it's not like the Nazis, and it's not like the Japanese, and and it doesn't have to be defeated in the same way. But my bigger question is about the two states solution beyond without a two-state solution. You have two choices you have basically what's close to apartheid stateless people or you have a single entity. Which would mean there would be no Jewish stage. And and so there's really no other solution. That is all says factory to people you'll either believe in idea of a Jewish state want one or who believe in democracy and do not want a revival of of the evils that we've already seen with in South Africa and other play. Okay. Get your question. That's question. I guess challenge. Challenge. You you. I think it's relevant to think about what it means for there to be an end to this conflict. And I don't think it's you start with. Well, what does the configuration of the society of look like I think you have to start with. What is the what is driving the conflict? And how'd you end it? And then they're going to be questions about what happens then what kind of society should there. Be once the Palestinian movement is no longer seeking to liquidate its opponent Israel, and I think they're real hard questions. And I agree recently. Don't wanna hold population that is denied citizenship. I think there's raise certainly won't accept being a minority. I think they're fearful of that. And I think for a number of good historical reasons, they're fearful of being a minority in their own country. I don't think that's an easy problem to solve. But I think what you what I think it's a mistake to turn that around and say, well, the obvious solution is they gotta have to be two states. I don't think that's obvious. And I don't think it's the way to begin the way to begin to say why is this being going? On for so long and why what's driving it? And what what are the ideas going on here? And then what is the principle that should govern it count? We I mean. I want to say what can we expect from a Palestinian state? And I don't think it's true that we don't know. I think we have a lot of empirical evidence of what the ideas of the Palestinian movement mean in practice, and I think it's also telling if you look at the scholarship of Arashi Khalidi, who's a Palestinian scholar. He he's Columbia. He wrote a book about why the Palestinian movement has failed in its attempts to state building. And one of the things that struck me in reading this is that he says he doesn't take it as seriously as I do what he says in passing look they have given. So little thought what it would look like achieve estate that is a law remain. And to me that is well, it's not only alarming suspicious because few spent decades yearning for sovereignty, wouldn't you give it a lot more thought about what it would actually look like, wouldn't you promulgate what that actually looks like? And I think the absence of doing that speaks to this is not a sincere effort. At writing wrongs or serving a Palestinian people who some of whom suffered severely. So I think there's a lot of things the solve once you get past moving the obstacle in the road. And some of those are really hard things to solve. And I think you've hit on one of those. Okay. All right. We have. Unfortunately, we have time for one final question before we go to the summations. So please ask a question. This is a more philosophical question. Both to both groups here I'm unclear whether the arguments are detail consequentialist as far as lawn is considered. You've you made a moral presumption. And maybe I'm asking this being a different kind of Rotarians that freedom is somehow tied to democracy, individuality and secularism and therefore have rigged the debate for the side of Israel and on the side of Danny? It's unclear to me whether you're arguing for the feasability or the desireability because your arguments have been for the desire ability of of collaborating with with the movement to Palestinian movement. But you haven't really demonstrated the physicality because the question is what if it is impossible to both have Jewish state and to collaborate with them, would you then take into logical position say, no we still have to collaborate or consequentialist one and say, well, maybe we have to do something else. And if so what would it be when you go first on this one? I think that a Palestinian state. Is desirable. It is not currently feasible so long as there are Jewish. Only roads Jewish only settlements five hundred thousand Israel. He's in the West Bank Gaza shut off from both the sea and the land that's the most heavily densely populated place on the earth half, the people get their goods from United Nations organization. So I think yes, it is as it stands relatively infeasible for there to be a Palestinian state. But largely I would argue that is due to the entrance of his Rayleigh policy and self-defeating violence on the behalf of terrorist elements within the Palestinians, and I agree for she'd Khalidi, and it's interesting you brought him up because he does. Critique rightfully aspects of the PLO aspects of the Palestinian Authority, but what must be remembered is he is one of the preeminent historians in favor of Palestinian nationalism in favor of Palestinian sovereign entity. So I think that in its current state is not feasible. But through honest negotiations a removal of the military occupation and a removal of the settlements. It is possible extra minute on you, so mation. And so we've got a while. Go to the summations, and you can ask that question and take the podium. Okay. So I'll try to give you my summation address that question that you raise loss. I'm an atheist. Individualist advocate of liberty. And I believe that liberty the principle of freedom has to be the framework by which tend to stand the claims in this conflict and the character of the adversaries. I don't accept that. We have no basis for thinking that what a Palestinian state would look like I think we have a great deal of evidence to know what to expect. And I think it's the responsibility of anyone who's advocating for that as an outcome. Anyone who's in favor of a Palestinian state in the present to make the case that it would be a moral state. Meaning it would be it would protect the lives and freedom of Palestinians and do so more. So than ever in the past in the meeting that Senate, I don't think anyone is put full with that basis that evidence, and I think it's it's a dodge. And unfortunately, I think there's a great deal of evidence that that's dodging to say, we don't know what it would look like it's a problem that we don't know what it would look like. And been enough development in political thought over the last two hundred years for people to pick up say the federalist papers to pick up use constitutional. Learn something from it and say, look, this is the sort of thing where thinking of doing what do you think of that does that make sense to you? We can make a case that this is what we're doing. But just to say, we're a group we deserve a state. And you're you're not letting us have it, and we're going to rage against that. That is not an argument that deserves credibility. And let me add that there many more historical issues that have been raised that we didn't get a chance to answer and claims that my opponent has raised that I haven't had a chance some of them are dressed in the book. And I encourage you to look at that. The issue that I want to stress is that. The Palestinian movement does exist. It's a real thing. They think of themselves as a movement, even if the opponent tonight says that I'm I'm simplifying. There is a progression that you can track over time. And what may maybe it's difficult to conceptualize. But what would brings it together? What coheres in this movement? It's the goal of state in place of Israel. And that state is what defines that state is some sort of a far -tarian off the critic type model of we see plenty of in the Middle East. And that's the unity of this movement. Even if the justifications for it over time went from Arab nationalism Palestinian nationalism. And now it's more framed in Islam, est terms, but that's the unifying threads through time. I haven't made the case I'm sorry. You've been led to believe this. I haven't made the case that Israel is blameless that is somehow Saint that is certainly not the view I opened with and assume not my view and the view you'll find in my book, I cast gate Israel for many of its flaws, and they're more that we can talk about. I think it's a mistake to present the the major obstacle being Israel, even if it's made even if it's not being entirely. Fair here and has committed wrongs the overtime the pattern is that Israel's our spawning to aggression that is this significant reason to believe is. Seeking to do significant damage to life and property and in response to that. I think it's being justified in retaliating against them. If it's going beyond that, then it's wrong, and that's the standard that I apply here. And I think what's missing is. I think the silence I glad it was partially broken tonight. But not completely is. You have a judge move not only by its ideas. And it's charter, and it's it's founding documents, but also by its actions, and I agree with that. And I think that the the issue here tonight is the Palestinian movement has been true to its ideas. And we have to take seriously what those ideas are and pretending that they're not there or trying to whitewash them or say, well, let's just bite our tongue and we have to talk to anybody. I think that misses the point and. It is significant that the Palestinian issue has become not only as Lama size in the sense that the leading faction from us is it's acting on the idea of ideas of his law MC society. That's what it seeks to do. But that it is aligned with other forces in the region, principally, Iran and cutter they're supporting this idea, and I suggest that in this sense, the conflict is now really it starts in terms of the ideas. Do you believe that it's better to have a free society? What you believe in tyranny, whether it's nationalist theocratic. And that to me is the question. Thank you. Why am I here tonight taking the position in favor of a Palestinian state by any logical measure with Islam est organizations in both Iraq and Afghanistan taking the lives of so many of those who I loved one would think that I would take the position of many of my less educated soldiers, which was to hate islam-, okay to hate Arabs in the case of Iraq. But I came to a place of respect for the vast majority of the people in the Middle East, and I realized that there were both strategic and ethical reasons to care for both sides in this conflict. And Thus I applaud it to the Israel Palestine conflict, I've hoped to illustrate not appropriate stinian position tonight, but a middle road one that recognizes the strengths of Isreaeli democracy at times and also recognizes the plight of the Palestinians. I do think you've heard another process rather biased that lambaste very notion that Palestinian has a movement have. Any meaningful grievances? All right to self-defense. There's something else, and it's rather personal matter. But it's essential one on the less it applies to my third assertion that Isreaeli policy. Must carry some blame for the intractability of the conflict. Israel is not alone in carrying some of that blame. Additionally, the United States must recognize its own complicity and hindering peace. Vera Lynn hatred for the US for his for Israel and his law Mystere plots in the west will not meaningfully decrease until Washington, at least begins to address the roots of the problem and rebalance it's one sided relationship with Israel first off it's the right thing to do second. It's a pivot away from these more on hinged policies will actually make American soldiers is rarely soldiers and civilians in both societies is really nice dates safer to it. This army officer who's interpreter from Iraq Akil from solder city is here tonight. We heard earful 's about Israel policy about America's support for Israel from angry, moderates, moderates mind, you around the middle of the road in Iraqi society in both Iraq and Afghanistan decorating dingy Baghdad apartments and Canda har- hobbles with pictures of the dome of the rock in Jerusalem was quite common. These people. Cared about average Palestinians, even former CIA director and general betray us. Not exactly a liberal snowflake recognize this way back in two thousand ten when he said that US favouritism towards Israel endangers his troops. He was predictably lambasted by certain lobbying groups, but that didn't make him wrong. If you want to genuinely protect the homeland and the troops and the Israeli troops from his Llamas inspired violence, then insists that both Washington and Israel, demonstrate some sense of equity and Justice in Israel Palestine. That's what's missing from the other arguments, and compromise is the only way to peace. It was the case in Northern Ireland. It was the case in almost every anti colonial movement framing one side Israel in. This case is the protagonist will gain us nothing. Besides the further alien ization and radicalization of new generation of grief Palestinians. For compromise requires personal humility and self awareness from both sides, the Palestinian movement must swear off counterproductive and despicable terror attacks on civilians and Israel must measure its own violent attacks with the degree required degree of proportionality and care for its usual victims, which not Israeli civilians, but Palestinian combatants, statistically, all serious, Arab groups moss included, must accept the existence of Israel and two-state solution. This may sound like a tall order. But notice how unlike my opponents affirmation of the resolution it recognizes the guilt and responsibilities of both sides. It recognizes the notion of sovereignty four-goal sides. My opponent loves the state of Israel, it honestly bleeds through as an admirable quality and his every word, but he's missing the fact that just liking Israel's democracy more than the secular Arab regimes or the Islamist hours resumes. Does not make it any more likely. They'll be. Militia military or political victory coming in the territories me on through with such fanciful. Make believe it died with eight of my own soldiers in Baghdad and Canada har- Israel can no more defeat the narrowly defined Palestinian movement and the massive American military machine could win any sort of military victory in Iraq or Afghanistan. Now is the time for realism not fantasy Israel must engage Palestinian groups and the Goshi eight whatever your personal beliefs loyalties or inclinations I asked that you show, the rationality and intellectual honestly to vote in the negative and reject this resolution to do. So does not reject Israel its people its existence or it's right to security. It merely recognizes. There are two sides in this tale of woe that there may just maybe still a middle path to peace involves a two-state solution reject this resolution because you have heads and hearts, and you know, there's no other rational way. Thank you. Thank thank you to you. Both. And we are now going to do the final voting. Yvonne is going to be signing books afterwards. He'll be at that table, and it can show with you. And Danny you please stick around as well. Because a lot of people will want to chat next. Next month. We're going to be debating the issue of climate change. Hope you can make it in. In august. We're going to be debating bitcoin. Once again that event has had the previous debate on bitcoin had four hundred fifty thousand views on YouTube and was sold out weeks in advance. You may want about by tickets to that event in August. I'm going to be once again, debating socialism in November against a this time somebody who is sort of my own size and on America's professor name, Richard wolf from university of Massachusetts debating, the broad issue of socialism that will probably not be at this all because we usually get hopefully a lot of socials to show up, and we had we sold nearly five hundred tickets to the last social debate I held with Basco Kara who gathers gracing the pages of New York magazine to not listen to me when I told him you could start the socialist resume revolution right now. Just put some of the money together. It could happen. He's preferred to go the intellectual route. And I'm not surprised that he did that. Jane, what do we stand on the voting? One woman it on on the voting. I want to thank my wife, who's catered this affair and thank C span C span is film this and so you will be on C span. And it will also be. Shown on video by reason, and it will be available on our website in in may, we're going to be debating vegetarianism the and so a real food fight in may versus the rather Chaim debate. We had this evening. And and again, I do want to we were a little bit nervous about the the import of this debate. And I want to commend you. All commend our speakers debaters, especially on the civility that they felt twenty. Yeah. Well, they will they will. And in fact, usually usually this hugging. But if you guys wanted just wanna shake it. We have no hugging. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. The okay. The the voting went this way, the the yes vote for the resolution was twenty seven point two percent. And the yes vote picked up nine points went to thirty six percent. So that nine points was the figure to beat the no vote went from thirty three percent to fifteen fifty percent picked up fourteen points. So the no vote wins the Tootsie roll a congratulations to you. Both.
Madrid on alert after Mbappe fall out, victory over Espanyol and goal 34 for 2019 for Benzema plus transfer latest.
"And welcome back to the Rail Madrid podcast. After the weekend we had victory over Espanol keeps Real Madrid neck and neck. It's all Ligo with Bassolino now. After Veran gave Madrid the lead he was by the way the fifteenth player to school for Real Madrid. This season it was a long wait until the seventieth minute before. Who else counting? Benza finally put the game beyond their Spaniels. Reach sneaks back on the else again with this finish is very good with the setup but basically blue sky this one. That's fine but it's an emphatic. Finish by corrine wonderful strike. Is this ball pops towards him onto a and sets Saddam stocks. This and then he gets on the other end of the rainbow again. We've seen it all all season long. This is a player who never takes shift off so many prayers after their setup and win that bowl all plaster streak in his position not him. What a season Benz is having? That's nine goals for him in the last eleven eleven games. He's played thirty four in total four. twenty-nine teen in all the Games. He has played nine clean sheets. Navarette Madrid this season. This upturn and the consistency of performance is bringing back support as well to Ben about just under sixty five thousand isn't in attendance this weekend. Impressive considering the kickoff time good days well for Venecia's who after a difficult season so far left a significant -nificant impression with his performance. And that underlines why Really Rally Trudeau Peres in particular has no interest in allowing game to move anywhere on loan in January or indeed next summer at even his boss tzu-dan where he was happy as well. He said the important thing today is his work. Great what he did well. He did at both ends of the field on his lack of goals. He said I didn't ask anybody to garden school goals. They will come as a consequence sequence of good team. Play wasn't all good news though today. Mendis Red card and of course mark sellers injury means that's row Madrid are missing a left back for the trip to Valencia next weekend. Also APP media off feasting on anything that points to a souring relations between MBAPPE and PS G. Say Plenty of Glee on saying about Pie. Walk off against Montpellier looking very displeased despite the the game was one and it being the ninetieth minute irresistible irradiating. The French media called birth name. Oh and by generally that that was support for the PS g coach. Now remaining with Emba- pay we mentioned last week. There was an offer in the making of cash plus Venecia's for combat pay That is being dismissed with pse. Believing Venecia's is simply not good enough the view basically if he's good enough to be in your first team and he's just just a bit part player for Real Madrid. Why would we consider paying nine hundred million four last week he might recall those Gareth? Bale and his agents reiterated the facts. See you play has never asked for move. And is relatively happy to stay for the duration of his contract fast forward three days of the weekend and he was set to be part of a package. Deal with. Hamas Rodriguez Z.. Dan Looks to drive. Push through a deal in January to sign pauper from Manchester and Chester United. Bail though it is reported as told Ram Madrid. He has no interest in returning to frame yet. Lee Hamas Rodriguez is on the other hand is keen to move to Manchester United reinforcements to have Karen Benza. Already far from a headline on after the failure of Yovich to show any signs of breaking through youth it says is being temporarily jettisoned as the club turned to more experienced plas- as looking ahead to next season but let dos key now committed to stay by Munich. Maria working very hot. On keeping Harry Kate happy at Tottenham. Thanks again moves to PMS Obama young at Oslo now. He will be thirty one in June. He has though just one year left off this season on his current contract. Act scored twenty eight goals. So far in all matches played in twenty nine team which is less than county Ben Zimmer with the player and likely to commit further awesome if they may well have to cash in risk losing him for nothing. I'd remaining on that subjects there is work being done on the potential of putting a bit together for Kane next summer. Especially if the Spurs do not qualify for Champions League next season which despite the recent upturn in fortunes is still going to take a great deal of work for Marina to secure at present to embarrass a looking at the possibility of a deal between two hundred to two hundred in two thousand five million euro for next summer it is though far from a self funding deal so a list of flares which many of the names as we've seen all year Mariana de Ath Brahim Death Hannah's Rodriguez iskoe vascular Asensio potentially odaguard Yovich all available able as a Real Madrid will need certain balancing of the books before such a significant outlay can be made while imply that Peres is now not not as keen on as he was is Jaden Sancho is the. Dan has made his feelings about the flare. Very clear indeed. He voted for him in the best youth player of of the year. Category ahead over Felix and Vinicius pet. Ed View now is with the nieces and Rodriguez. There's little pointing pointing buying one to sideline the other so in the subway that tzu-dan had a fight on his hands. Convincing Peres about pallbearer bachelor still hasn't want a similar situation is now evolving with Jaden Sancho as well The progression of Akim. Ian Odaguard is being well documented but also gathering positive. Headlines is Oscar Rodriguez who is in his second season of alone with the GANASSI's two goals the three two victory over. Celta Vigo weekend took his. Season's total to four Valencia severe. Betty's all keeping tabs on his situation with a potential move in the offing for next summer and that just about wraps it up for today's news. Roundup Champions League record through terms this week with a trip to Berga before the weekend and that big game gains Valencia ahead of course of the classic. Oh on Tuesday week we will. I'll be back on Thursday to look ahead to significant weekend. In the meantime dead. Forget you can catch up with all of the season's new so far over to the website or www www dot Ramadorai podcast dot com or you can go to I tunes Google stitcher or spotify. We'll look forward to joining you gain on Thursday Thursday until that. Enjoy the Champions League fixture from me Tim capable bye-bye.
Episode 322: Seitan Burgers, Caramelized Fennel, and Food Videos
"Hi, I'm Maria, clelland Creator, food jars, and I am joy manning a freelance writer focused on food and health welcomed local mouthful. We're here to talk shop with Obsessive Home Cooks everywhere this week were talking about Satan, beat Burgers caramelized fennel and food videos up, but first. Let's compare notes on something we read this week. I found this piece in the Washington Post. It's called farm to parking lot to table. The pandemic is inspiring creative efforts to get locally sourced food. And I? I, don't know I thought it was. I was sat in Palo Alto. California so different demographic than we have here in Philadelphia. They also had some different mechanics. A lot of it has to do with like. Neighbors and community members organizing ways to connect shoppers with the farmer like a lot of it has to do with cars pulling up. You know which I think they're doing in South Jersey. But that's not the way we have been finding farm food. No Yeah, I feel like I mean. Certainly this is how suburbs doing it I've heard like places like. I'm Lawrence Kansas and Out in the Portland area where I grew up, I know the Beaverton farmers market, which is a really great farmers market out that way. I've done some demos there they have switched to a preorder drive thru situation. One, thing about this article that made me think about you specifically. Is that most of they? They profiled this one organization, which now has a name called giving fruits, and they were really doing a lot of bulk stuff, lattes, and you know big quantities of fruits, which is usually something that you do in the summer, isn't it? It's true and I have to a certain degree already this year last weekend or last week Friday so right before the fourth of July. We drove out to moods. Farm Market in south, Jersey, which is one of my favorite. You pick farms. The boys don't have. The bandwidth for you pick at this point, but I picked up a twenty pound that next year next year. Exactly I got twenty pounds of Blueberries Wow, that's a lot. That's more than I. Even thought that you are. The price just keeps going down. The more you buy, so twenty pounds mentioned in his yeah. Well twenty pounds, blueberries was forty dollars. Ten pounds of blueberries was twenty five dollars and so just. Felt like a bargain to buy twenty pounds, and I packed twelve pounds up in four pound increments and put them in the Freezer I. Am I've made some jam the. My babies have eaten a bunch of them. At least declan. He seems to be very afraid. Sammy's not quite as fruit focused, but declan can put away. A lot of blueberries pretty quickly. It just seems like a lot for your freezer. Well. Hopefully very very soon. I'll have a second freezer because I'll have a second kitchen a second apartment so knocking on wood that you know we close at the end of the month, but. Many had a talk show my, do you WanNa say in a nutshell is basically buying the studio apartment next door to our apartment. And we'll be cutting a hole in the wall and putting a door and just expanding short-term Yeah, and then hopefully in the next couple of years, we'll be able to Do a bigger remodel and create a one nice big kitchen, but for now for the next. Two for years probably will just have to kitchens. We've really all our money buying it, so we can't do any I'm renovations at this point, but it'll be nice to have the space and another freezer and yes, and another freezers that on the list of things that you're going to do. In terms of like filling up that freezer, or in terms of like you're going to get the get the space, and then will you make a freezer purchase like the first week deal? I mean it has a refrigerator. I mean right now. I'm just. The second fridge and free and there and then probably price out a small freezer, some point before the end of the season. You know what arrived at our house yesterday. Tell me a third freezer. Regular Freezer with our Frisian upstairs, and then we have our chest freezer, and now we have a a third freezer which. It's really it's really gotten crazy with the amount of bulk staff. We've been by like twenty five pounds. Worth of peanuts is like on dance wishlist. Because now he's making peanut butter from scratch. We have an enormous amount of bulk. Whole Grains uh-huh. Nuts, of course I go through tons of cashews around here. Yeah, And it is great by of Humboldt, but you can't keep it at room. Temperature goes bad yeah. So. Anyway I'm impressed, so that's how they're doing it in Palo Alto and here you know. I'm still using Philly. Food works mostly to access my local groceries. have you know. There's some farmers markets that I feel okay about going to and Have you been connecting? I know you usually get like flats and seconds and stuff. Have you done any of that not a lot yet. I reached out. I've often gotten a lot of my seconds from beechwood orchards they. A lot of their fruit got hit really hard by the late freeze. We had this year so like they don't have any April cots. which normally normally my apricot source but hopefully they'll have plums and peaches. And and. That's really about it. I hope to get more Three springs fruit farm is another one that I've gotten seconds, and like discounted flats and things like that from, but I'm trying to temper myself this year because I don't. Have the capacity to spend all day and all night canning jockeying I know right you guys I you know, wait till you're kids are old enough, or they can pitch in, and you can have like a little factory going with some extra hands. That'll be great i. mean right now any it I'm trying to do one project week so I have something to put on the blog, and that's that seems reasonable. You know kind of the extent of my aspiration right now. Well, we'll share this story on The show notes for today's episode and Let's keep this conversation going about how we're connecting with and supporting our farmers and getting our hands on all the local. Yeah, good throws So I mentioned this on a previous episode that I was going to experiment with a satanic beat Berger for Fourth of July. Yeah, and I did. Good news it turned out. Great I was a little nervous. Because the blog that I got this from. It's called It doesn't take. It doesn't taste like chicken. It's a Vegan food blog from Canada and like side note why there's so many like successful Bloggers from Canada I. Think he has to do with them having access to national healthcare. she I've had recipes of hers. That I've loved and I've had recipes from her. That I've had to throw in the trash, so I didn't want to talk about it until I did it and I could vouch for it and I can't. It was so good it was so simple, and it was also sort of like an Aha moment for me with Veggie burgers on lines. Like what are the problems with Veggie? Burgers in your opinion. Trying to take integrity, they are holding up. Yeah I also think they're often very mushy. Right? Yes, so. I still by Commercial Veggie Burgers even though you know how much I like to make things from scratch, and that's been a frustration for me and this sort of was like an a Ha moment. Where if you WANNA get a burger more like the kind that you buy in the store. You need to use the type of ingredients that they use and one of the ingredients is vital wheat. Gluten makes you know if you're gluten sensitive, not for you, but if gluten is okay for you, it can, it provides everything you need Nevada Burger structure. It makes it firm and not mushy could these burgers were so sturdy? You throw them on the grill. And they did there. There is not any other unusual ingredients. The beats gave it a very like earthy delicious flavors. They were lentils in there as well It was pretty simple. The only part that was a little annoying was like you have to steam them in a single layer. They can't overlap or they'll end up misshapen knowing how to do it like in two. To Fema steamer rapidly in the pot, and then I can only fit three. Having them lay perfectly flat, so I had to do it twice, which not a big deal I have my eye on another burger like this in neo goes handmade homemade. Be Panting. where she bakes them so like I'll talk about that after I give that a try her book still great I know you have if you lent it to me at one time, but I bought it and well So of course I'll post the link to these ten beat Burgers. I think that you would like them Vegan or not. If you like Veggie Burgers feel like a store bought veggie Burger. This is definitely for you especially. If you've struggled to get something that will hold on the grill or not fall apart or not be mushy, yeah. So give it a try. They sound great. So what's going on in your kitchen? I, so I made Hamas bowls. For dinner couple of nights ago, which are always delicious Hamas bowls are my life although I don't call him that, though, but yeah, I mean it really is. It's like you put a big smear of Hamas in the bottom of your bowl. You put stuff onto opping. See Yeah, and so the toppings I made this time were particularly good, and there was one a definitely wanted to shout out, which is caramelized fennel, which Larry phrase is making my mouth and my stomach Rommel. Got So I had three things that I put on top of these helmets bowls I did beats that I then just roasted beets then peeled cubed, and I just baked them arose to them a little bit of olive oil and salt. That was IT I. Sauteed the Beet Greens and I added a pinch of sugar and a splash of red wine vinegar, so they had that kind of agriculture say sweet and sour situation. Those were both great, but the caramelized fennel was so good. Hold on. Can we pause the second before we move onto the out? You've said the beat and the beat Greens. Were these really food works beats and be Greens from rambling routes? Okay, farm from the Greens were gorgeous, gorgeous I usually compost them. But I recently got them, and they were so beautiful, I had to eat them, and I figured that's what happened were Beautiful Beautiful Beet Greens? Anyway yeah sorry. Realists into a conversation about be grants, but no I mean sometimes. I ended up composting the Beet Greens, too, if they're a little limp or if they've gotten yellowy, but these were. These were beautiful too beautiful to throw exactly. Yeah, at but. The CARMELA fennel so super simple I did use I also included half of an onion, because I had it so sliced it into half moons, and then I sliced fennel and a half moons, and then I did it in cast iron skillet with a generous amount of olive oil, not like crazy amounts, but I feel like when you're working with when you know that you're making a meal. That's Vegetarian, it's I feel a little bit more free to use a tiny bit more oil than might otherwise because I know that it's going to need that satiated in. Hamas has plenty of healthy fat But so they caramelized, and then because I had used oil. I mean my Hamas with the wheel. No, I made the Hamas from I made your Hamas I made Hamas from resolution recipes That's the only Hamas that make these days so good. It's good stuff and then I, but so it's like they caramelized. They've really developed that sweetness, but then they also kind of Frizzell the tiniest bill because they had. At least extra bit of oil in there, so the combination of the car and I think the trick. Here's what I did. I started them with very little oil and I did it low and slow, and then towards the end I, added a little, an extra little drizzle of olive oil and turned up the heat a small amount so that you've got that frizzell action on top of the car molestation. It was not hard I did it in between sort of feeding babies dinner, and getting them to bed. I had to stop at one point, and then turned the heat back on and finish, and they were still so good. The towns incredible. I. Don't know why I have never caramelized fennel. Before, it's such a great idea. It feels like the only way I wanNA eat fennel now. Because then it became very sweet as well. It was so sweet and it really it different. It definitely brought out that kind of fennel flavor, so if you can't stand that kind of liquorice anise flavor, this might not be the treatment for you, but if you like it, and you want to sort of bring it to its. Highest possibility than that's then. This is the thing to do it's funny to that would also have been great. Oh, my Veggie, Burger in totally would have I mean it would be great on anything, and it made me think that what I'd really like to do is make a big batch of it, and then have it just put on things over the course of the week. I could see putting it on a sandwich. I you know and it could be any kind of sandwich, but like just putting it on kind of toasted. Artisan bread known still good The I could see eating with ricotta or Tofu ricotta like. Doing toasts with it it was just. It's just magical and they're really. Sounds like something I gotta make yeah, absolutely and I got the fennel from rambling route two, and it had this like extravagant Franz like so much fennel frond that I saved it I haven't figured out I, think I'm GonNa make some Fennel Syrup with it? Just because Franz? They don't have a lot of flavor, but they can impart something and so. I don't want to throw them away because they're just so kind of. Over the top, they make a very pretty garnish. Yeah, but I mean there's a certain point how much garnish I know. How much fennel garnish can you do? It can lead us, so did you serve the homeless bulls with pita or something? I didn't have any PD, but I had gotten a loaf of really great sour dough, and so we just toasted it and use that as the bread vehicle, and then had all these veggies on top it. It was so good I think people don't appreciate Hamas as like the basis of a meal They remind me of mashed potatoes in a way like I know, it's cold, but it's still like it's got that comforting. Creamy starchy quality were then start adding stuff onto it. It can be really like filling in. Oh. Yeah, and Hamas can do a lot and I always you know one of the things I've learned. I've learned many things from you joy about. A bit particularly that Hamas one of the tricks is that you never wanna eat it right from the refrigerator so like I would put it in my bowls, and then I would microwave it for just like fifteen seconds just to take the chill off I. Do that, too, and it makes it so much creamier like instantly it ups the cream minus there is nothing that I like more in life than Hamas. Right out of the food processor. Right when you move especially, if you're using freshly cooked chickpeas and it's warm, it's just like. Read it's so good. You know what on thing is. I'm thinking of doing I I. Think I've talked about or maybe I only talked about this with our members on our Coffee Mita, but I'm getting ready to release a Vegan cookbook on gum road, which is a platform where you can buy off, it's going to be cheap. It's going to be a dollar ninety nine or pay what you want, And but they also let you do videos that you can deliver comrades so I was thinking about maybe doing as my next project Hamas, masterclass I think that would be amazing where I would just like 'cause, I do think there's a lot like everything in life. There's are everything in the kitchen. It helps so much when you can see it. Yeah, absolutely one of the things I love about that and I don't mean to devolve into my favorite topic of Hamas here buckle brief one of my favorite things about cooking the chickpeas and the instant hot as you can get the what are in my opinion, the necessarily overcooked chick peas. Starting to fall apart, that is what you want for Hamas absolutely I mean that that is one of the things I learned from you is that when I cook chick peas for Hamas in the instant pot I do them for an hour, and a half when I come them, and I wanna like eat them or turn them into super something. I only cook them for like fifty five minute right? Yeah, it makes a big difference well. I'm sure this will not be the last time we discussed on us on this show. Really like the takeaway is make caramelized fill and added on a Hamas Bowl yes, and put it on a Hamas bowl or told anything. Yeah, that sounds good I got what I you know I love. Food Works I. My are. Constrained I haven't seen them. Oh, yeah, for example I've really got to get out more to the farmer's markets. Side No! We've corn yet. I was just I just looked at it. Email and corn is coming to Millie's to my market this weekend. Okay, residing near farms family farm, my eye on this corn soup recipe. That I really WANNA. Try, but I need. I WANNA do with fresh corn I think if you got up to head house this weekend, they'd probably have corn. I heard that there are really long lines there, but. That anyway, we live in a new world. There are lions everywhere you just kind of have to. Buckle up and be patient. Your your mask, etc, yeah true. Well, let's move onto the exciting topic of food video. Yeah, I was weird chatting on text before this, and I was like Oh. Let's talk about what we're watching instead of bone apetit. Definitely happening to me, I. Is Not producing new content for the video channel right now, and even when they start to I, don't know if I. Will be able to watch it perfectly honest. You know it's funny. I never able to enjoy it. Yeah, I never was real into the Bona, petite. Youtube channel like it just didn't do it for me. Like but I know people loved it. I love it which is allowed for me a lot of my favorite's. Food video these days comes from instagram from just people. I've randomly discovered but it's I mean before we even digging in this I just want to. Say. It's amazing. How much food video has changed in the last? Ten plus years I'd also in the last like ten plus weeks. That is also true, but go on. You know when I remember when I first really started seriously watching food. Video, like food TV It was like eighteen years ago. I had just moved Philadelphia and it was on television watching Rachel raise thirty minute meals or the original nine Jello Ball, show, and those you know. And I love that stuff. And slowly it has evolved and change, and for such a long time it was my sort of aspiration to have a a cooking show and then back in like two, thousand, five, thousand, six, two, thousand, seven Scott and I made an online cooking show called fork. You We were a little too early to the food video. World like it was before youtube existed, which seems crazy. seem like we never had a world without youtube, but you know and so we stopped right when Youtube Arrived because we were working on different stuff and never really found our way back to it, but. Now. It's like you don't aspire to a cooking show. You aspire to a really great following on instagram or youtube like it's. It's funny how much it's changed. Yeah, that's true I mean I would still watch Rachel raised thirty minute meals like today Yeah, I just I don't have regular TV anymore so like. Watches on the Internet, even things that I I love to love America's test kitchen and I. Watch it on the Internet. You know yeah. And so without one of t to watch I have been sort of casting around for other things to watch like a new discovery for me is I. of course you and I are both familiar with the. Prolific Burke of food, writer and Cookbook Author Kenji Lopez all well. He has his crazy show now on the. He's got a camera attached to his head. It's like as Minimal is minimal can be you're like? Like fighting seasickness, watching him, make staff like seeing his kitchen floor, and his bare feet, and his dogs and stuff on my. Love it like I don't know I'm really into the low Polish of at all. Yeah, so that's one that I have been enjoying Do you WanNa tell about what there's a food writer? In the UK whose instagram handle is five o'clock apron. Her name is Claire Thomson. Since the lockdown has occurred since the pandemic started. She's been making Instagram TV. Video with her kids her three daughters every day, and so they make really interesting things together. It's just one kid helping but she also. She's doing really kind of advanced things. like what she does really interesting like Piaf's, and she bakes with them, and they might ask for kids. You mean well like some of the skills that she's showing. Urges advanced for anybody like I watched her. Do a really interesting Pilaf which she cooked under fig leaves Oh Just like. I I, that hadn't occurred to me that what a fascinating thing! And now when I walk by Fig Tree I look at those leaves and I think. Those they do have a kind of a spicy scent. I can imagine how they would impart a really delicious flavor She'd walk around big little pruning shears in your like half a few I might write some time but I just really enjoy what she what she does. She made yogurt with one of those crazy insulated bags where he'd everything off and put it. Put Your Pot in the bag and let it sit overnight and it turns into yogurt. I just enjoy sort of seeing her food perspective and the videos are. Well enough done that there are a pleasure to watch without being too polished, so that's one that I really enjoy and another place where you can get videos these days in addition to Instagram facebook. Yeah, you know who had an hour long cooking show on the topic of Tofu and Tempe GS, yesterday or two days ago. MIOKO! Company goes creamery with the Great Vegan. Cheeses and author of the homemade begin pantry which I mentioned earlier. Yeah, so that's fun to watch. Yeah, it's like there's all. This is because I'm over forty, maybe younger people like. Just know where to find the stuff or whatever, but like for me, I have to be motivated to go out and hunted down if I want to watch it. Yeah, another one I really love. alley Alexander's Kitchen. She has She always does really great instagram stories where she is she. The bulb read lady. Yeah Okay Yeah She doesn't just do bread. She does a really good job of like featuring other people's cookbooks. take a cookbook. She likes she'll make a recipe from it. Show you how easy and delicious it could be, and then posts the recipe on her blog, so it's all very integrated C. can watch it on the stories. You can see the picture on her main feed, and then You can go to her blog and get a step-by-step recipe. That's cool I. They love her over on the dinner. Sisters they really are. Do you remember the name of that book it's like. Batter breadcrumbs or something read toast crumbs spread toast, crump's yeah, do you have it i? Do I I've made her I've made her bread many times. I've never made it but people. It's pretty easy you know. It's a yeast bread, so it's quick, which is appreciated some class. Maybe I should give it a try. It's just like the oven. I don't like having the on a lot in the summer. You know like heavy into Vegan ice cream right now i. don't know oven required. next week we have to do. You have to report it on no I actually. I it's it's fun I. Really this is like the Vegan. This is the dessert for me could know baking even when I was eating everything. Baking is like not really my favorite. But ice cream is really my favorite. I have to say well. I'm glad you found a way to make ice cream accessible. It's awesome. I feel like there was one other video thing I wanted to say, but not for food for food. Yes, which emily? -Til told me about a long time ago? another Canadian food. Blogger. I might add And I just such great ideas her her site She also vegan food blogger. She does a lot of comfort food and You know sometimes fried stuff, which is fun to watch, but I'm probably not gonNA make ideas it's It's just fun to watch. Yeah, no, I mean. As someone WHO's made a lot of food video, I know how much work it is and so I. I do watch these things. I appreciate the amount of energy and work that people put into them. She's really. Polish hot for food. She used to be like a Canadian VGA on Canadian wanders. Really knows what she's doing. Awesome. Yeah, but it is important to me like. It's like sentimental. Almost one Dan and I first moved in together on weekend mornings always watched out and Brown so now like I. Don't know I just like to have something like that. So if you all have something that you like to watch please tell us in. The show notes here because we're trying to expand our horizons beyond Bon Apetite, which I guess was never a problem for Maurice around trying to get over it. Anyway, we found the suggestions are our way my way, you probably time to watch as much TV as I. Do with your eyes on your kids. You, know I can watch it on my phone. true and you know I. Think Kids really like food TV. They do they absolutely do so might become something. You can do together before we go I. Want to tell you about the thing that I'm loving that you're backed. TRISCUITS! Joy I love Triscuit. Triscuits are the best crack. There so crunchy. They have such a wonderful wheat flavor lying I don't know how they're so good for something that is so cheap. Mass marketed like and the other thing that I'm just now appreciating about them is they go sweet or savory. Yeah, that is true like if you put a chocolate, the soom chocolate Tahini on top of it is like a cookie almost. Yeah there and there's nothing quite like a fresh box of triscuits like that moment when you first open them, they are so crunchy. They are so like perfect I'm buying a family sized box and eating it basically myself I love Triscuit. How mister terrific with Hamas or like any kind of dip even like I make this like thick ranch, dressing and That's great honor, Triscuit It's all. Right out of the box. They don't really need anything else they're like. Very elegant I think it'd Triscuit is underrated although I. Did posted an Instagram story about this and people were like oh I got triscuits I to have them. Yeah, now they're great but I have been popping over to the acme, sometimes like there's not a lot of artisan crackers available at the acme so. An allegiance to different woven wheat cracker. Yes, I did, and it's like almost too painful to talk about. It's like my favorite cracker that Jeff bezos stole from me. Took over whole foods and ended the three sixty five rand woven wheat. But you know what I think, the triscuits you're better. I really do. And Saltier, you know. Yeah, so now they are. They are an excellent cracker. I I was eating some recently, and the babies were both like standing there watching me eat them I'm like you're too little for for triscuits. You need more. Yeah, they have you know they have four teeth piece, but it's not. It's not enough for I think you need molars for Triscuit. It's just one of the many delightful things in their future. That is right. They have something to look forward to so. Well that's about it for this episode of local mouthful. Our. Thanks go out to Dan call for editing the show to solve Rosenbaum designing our logo and arena arose for providing the music and thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, make sure to subscribe the I tunes or your favorite podcast. APP please follow us on Facebook, twitter and instagram local mouth full sign up for our newsletter. Catch up on past episodes and check out. Our show notes at local multiple DOT COM until next time. Happy eating.
James Rodriguez's Everton Rebirth
"The. Six years ago Colombian star Hamas Rodriguez exploded onto the global soccer scene. But after one outstanding year at Real Madrid, he spent much of the past five years on the bench. Since to walk in two thousand fourteen, we'll see the shadow. Years Today the greg key on what Hamas surprising signing with. Everton means for him and the club. It's not your. Imagination, it's captured the imagination league football farms. Of course you're an Evan wants to save. You can get up to the end the golden boy. From wondering and the Fleck I'm under skelter and I'm the Davidson. It's Wednesday September sixteenth, and this is the lead. It felt like something was. There is something about the emotion. For. The past don't because. Assistant. Story. The. F.. It stays with you. Thing, about home security companies is that most of them will trap with high prices, tricky contracts and lousy customer support. 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After all this time at home I am dying to get away a quiet beach just about anywhere enter for a chance to win a trip to the beautiful destination of your choice at coors light dot com slash outside no purchase necessary sweepstakes begins August twenty, seven, two, thousand, twenty and ends on October First Two thousand twenty open only to legal residents of the fifty states and You have to be twenty one years of age or older travel must be to the destination indicated in the entry and must be completed by June thirtieth two, thousand, twenty two for official rules including how to enter prize details and restrictions. visit www dot coors light dot com slash outside void where prohibited message and data rates may apply remember to celebrate responsibly course brewing company Golden Colorado. So Greg. Let's start this story back in the summer of twenty four teen. Could you just remind us what Hamas Rodriguez was like in the two thousand fourteen World Cup Yeah he was a superstar. Every big tournament is one players come. On seems best onto the scene with the excitement that OWL's. Factor me or? Electric four kids in this school playgrounds oaken about him. He got the golden boots scored. Goals and everyone was talking about. And can you talk about just how big of a global star became particularly in South America in the UK here, maybe the equivalent will be a David Beckham but I actually think speaking to the journalists and the coaches that we spoke to in Bognar the pods Columbia, it's even bigger than NAS because I think football is obviously national obsession that and there was a perception that Columbia a time suffered reputations nationally for all the wrong reasons associated with the drug trade and. That what they said that James, did was this was quite genuine was the eat poku mirror on the map for some of the reasons this middle class kid who came to the academy system then moving to Argentina on suddenly go in and play in. Europe simply pieces staticky is. Said hockey phillies border mutual annuals. But it really did get people's Colombian Colombian football for the right reasons. So I think that was source of extreme national pride. Really he begun growing his own personal brands such an extent you know if you fast forward it now his social media following starring Gina, can you Dodo? I get have the area but. These got mole photos on social media than Liverpool football. Club. For example, Manchester United even and he is one of the most followed players in the world. So after the World Cup, he was this huge hot commodity and he went to Rail Madrid. What did you make of his first year? They're sensational. Defection. Obvious what Rigas scores around Madrid, the golden boy four Columbia in the World Cup. It was a very fast step around Madrid. They paid time I think it was the full highest fate ever for football and it's not just that. When you go to the banner by forget you go into the team deluxe goes the team expected to win titles. It's expected to win European corpse with the absolutely massless demands of the Spanish me dealt with it took an Dr. Leaves it? Actors. Seventeen goals he looked every inch, the play, that realm of they'd sign. Is Makes. A think Madrid funds and the Colombian Bio, and this is just a stall and you know he is going to go on to become an Cristiano Renaldo and tell us about his relationship with then Rail Madrid head coach Carlo Ancelotti. How do those two work together at rail when speaking to people that came time gay gets the best from Hamas. Thirty is the module. Bahamas Hamas always wants to play frontal in. So ask the question they best friends and it's like it's not so much your friendship it's more of a deep mutual. Expect to show is quality that has. A lot of quality I'm sure that there's going to show is quality competition. How is despite appearances on the fact that such a a superstar football? He's quite a shy introverted whereas some place going dressing room and they'll go chintzy chimney the monitor if they need to he's pumps quite like the off but. He was very laid back very killer very much players. Monisha. Think he found the perfect coach. He's a manager gives all these plays a huge amount of confidence. He knows how to get the best of each of his squad as well each of his players. So when did Turn South. For Hamas. The decision to suck. Of Two weeks of speculation, Rafael Benitez has been appointed as Real Madrid's manage three contract the fifty year old who left Napoli think nothing is very similar minded manager and he came in and he lives practically didn't really see irregular regular in place full Hamas thing from then Compton. Suffered his second season and the Bene- by was nowhere near as productive, and then subsequently it's been occasions dwindling with Sandra. Coincided with Zindedine Sadan who made it quite clear that he wasn't his mind effectively frozen out so much. So you only made eight appearances last season I mean you've been through many appointments for himself but also for the to the hasn't around the world and since the work in two thousand fourteen, I mean I we only see the shadow of I miss relievers. That get into a player's heads induced reduce that all important self belief and their ability to recapture the heights. were. Well I. Think a lot of people were surprised when Hamas signed with. Everton. Before the news over the weekend they signed Alan last night how measured Rigas also expecting Abdulah to Corey to move to Goodison Park in the coming days maybe even coming hours. So how exactly did that come about? Your is people were surprised many way lose an implausible transfer echo people's attention when I was in the truck caught on Chelsea manager he's always made it clear that he wants to play A. The. Who could cause inside preferably left-footed unequal make things up and create assists in school goals. I think he got wind through his mutual connections and his relationship with Hamas and Hamas people that was a deal that could be done here. He wants the owner on to his credit union and made it happen. What's really remarkable actually is that they made it happen for a fee. The in many ways is crazy. The initial thoughts where they're GonNa get twenty, twenty, five, million pounds, which even not sounded relatively cheap for a player of a Hamas Rodriguez. Quality, but I understand that in the end they managed to get him for less than ten million pounds because effectively or they ended up doing was ray on the JD left on his contract with the Jade's pay Damalf Baltimore amounts of and never paid it does so it could be between eighty nine million. What is Carlo Ancelotti said about signing Hamas and how successful does he think that Hamas can be in the premier league he's thrilled he knows that he signed an elite level player somebody who can come in and make a difference from the He has a lot more a lot of quality until we have to to use him to show his quality can't come inside and outside and there is. Between licensed, very dangerous Dazs been speculation English media on C. Football talk shows on the radio about whether or not he's got it physically. It's not the one worry with him not on today's evidence, but just getting used to the. Pace and physicality of the premise. Not. Worry about the physicality grossly fan water about this, I could sign who is involved not Hamas. What impressed me on Sunday was. Launched, shy put in some hogs pressing and some hard challenges and he just wrote them and got on with it and shooting determination seems. Out Tonight, a corey forever. Ace. Trucking back. He was winning the bull he would prevent shift for the team and Greg. What impact have you seen Hamas have on the club since his arrival it's hugely morale-boosting signing I. think every class be talked about some Mike's to make headlines, rides and particularly. So in the Premier League when the so much competition for big was such wide support Georgia's as in Ketone INS nation it's it's got people talking about the globe it's capture the wiser. The Premier League, full funds across your an Evan wants to see if he can get back to the golden boy that we spoke about and I think that if it's an a very ambitious growing the club as well you know looking at markets like North America so that they look at someone like how measured guys and they know about the Hispanic population of the US say they did all sorts of interesting marketing Both. Sailing along in. Miami when South Beach in you know how this huge picture of Hamas and everything kit. At Times Square New York they have huge billboards with housing shirts they're looking at Columbia directly they're looking at Brazil Argentina they're open twitter accounts in Spanish and Portuguese across the board he's lifted the club supporters is teammates and he's lifted everything's profile and I think the proof will be in the pudding excitements is obsolete high. So Greg Stepping back looking at the arc of Hamas career what do you think this chapter of his career represents for him? I think this represents a chance to improve a lot of people wrong twenty nine is got sign now to get back to that level on have two or three seasons whereby proved to everybody. That was worth the hype back in the World Cup in two thousand, fourteen, I'm not. Level player game. So for him it saying, yes, I, am with the hype I'm not just associates I'm not just opposed to Columbia beyond all. To should be regular and I'm vicious. Somebody should be playing football weekend we how scoring lots of goals and created goals and putting smiles on the faces of supporters. least this I didn't in. Phnom. Really really happy of how this great. Club. Club so much history. With the manager and coach who knows me really really well. Happy to be here I'm looking forward to achieving great things here and winning stove. Greg thanks for coming on the show. Thank you very much goes. You can follow Greg Keeps Everton coverage and check out his podcast. Glad tidings at the athletic dot com. From wondering the athletic I'm under Scelzo, see you tomorrow. All American Tiger Woods is a new documentary podcast from stitcher. Few athletes in the world are as big as tiger and we've all heard his story and amazing right to success his ugly fall from grace and an epic comeback I mean how exhilarating was it to watch the twenty nineteen masters in Sea Tiger Tacoma's fifth title from Augusta but they're still so much more to tigers story than most of. US know all American takes a deep look at what is iconic status means in American culture and how we define our sports heroes and what better time to revisit tiger story as the rest of the country's treatment of race identity and so much more has changed tremendously. You don't WanNa. Miss this story check out. All American Tiger Woods now in your favorite podcast APP and make sure to like and subscribe.
"Merriam Webster's of the day for May Twenty Six. Today's word is homonym is spelled H. M. O. N. Y. M. O. U. S. homonym is adjective that means ambiguous. It can also mean having the same designation or of relating to or being homonym. Here's the word used in a sentence from the capital gazette of Annapolis by Catherine phonic like the bird anonymous with his name crow operates like he's under the cover of night. The ambiguous sense of the word homonym refers mainly to words that have two or more meanings logisticians and scientists who wanted to refer to or complain about such equivocal. Words chose a name for them based on Latin and Greek from the Greek home meaning same and on Ima meaning name. In Time English speakers came up with another sense of anonymous referring to two things. Having the same name Hawaii the state and Hawaii the island for example next came the use of Hamanaka's to refer to Hominem such as C. Spelled S. E. and see spelled S. E. A. There's also zoological sense sheep and goats. Who's right horn spirals to the right and left horn spirals to the left are said to be Hamas with your word of the day I'm Peter Sokolow's visit Webster Dot com today for definitions wordplay and trending word look ups.
NPR News: 08-28-2019 11AM ET
"Live from n._p._r. News in washington. I'm korva coleman tropical storm dorian approaching puerto rico and the u._s. virgin islands its top sustained winds are currently at seventy miles per hour. It's expected to rake the islands later today. Forecasters warned dory is going to get stronger and maybe a hurricane by by the time it begins to threaten the u._s. Eastern seaboard national hurricane specialist dave roberts says the forecast track for dory and is so uncertain meteorologist a urologist don't know where it will strike it encompasses dr florida peninsula <hes> from the big band area or tallahassee and in north up to portions of georgia and south carolina forecasters are warning that the big concern today is the amount of rain. That's going to fall. I'm in puerto rico and the u._s. Virgin islands the department of homeland security will transfer millions of dollars of emergency funding to support president trump's border enforcement horseman efforts n._p._r.'s claudia zalis reports. The move comes at the peak of hurricane season. The says it will move two hundred seventy one million dollars alerts emergency money to support the trump administration's border efforts that includes one hundred and fifty five million dollars in fema funds that will be used for new you detention beds and facilities for core cases instead d._h._s. Gave congress thirty days notice and says it can now divert the money house democrats slam lamb. The move senate minority leader chuck schumer said diverting money at the start of hurricane season for the border was backwards in cruel congresswoman lucille roybal allard chair of a house appropriations subcommittee told d h s it was overstepping its authority. Claudia solis n._p._r. News washington two three hamas police officers in gaza have been killed in a rare attack believed to be carried out by islamic activists targeting hamas. N._p._r.'s ars daniel estrin reports from jerusalem. The islamist group hamas that controls gaza says explosion struck to police checkpoints late tuesday killing three police officers. There's no group claimed responsibility but hamas police officials speaking on condition of anonymity claims a palestinian attacker detonated a bomb near one checkpoint then blew himself up at the second checkpoint. If so it would be the first palestinian suicide bombing targeting hamas gaza in recent years though there have been bloody confrontations -tations between hamas and more fundamentalist islamist groups who challenge hamas rule in gaza and accused of being too lax in imposing religious rules on society eddie daniel estrin n._p._r. News jerusalem stocks are higher on wall street. The dow jones industrial average is up one hundred three points at twenty five thousand eight hundred hundred eighty one. The nasdaq is up a single point at seventy eight hundred twenty eight. The s&p five hundred is up seven. This is n._p._r. The pharmaceutical maker purdue pharma says it's actively working with state attorneys general and other plaintiffs. This come after a judge ruled that pharmaceutical maker johnson johnson and johnson is liable in a civil lawsuit filed by the state of oklahoma. The judge ruled at johnson and johnson contributed to the opioid epidemic by deceptively marketing painkillers. The government of zimbabwe is dismissing an amnesty international report accusing it of serious human rights abuses uses the report assesses president in angola's first year in office. Issue mundi coop has more from harare the report catalogs attorney of abuses including the killing of an armed demonstrators by the army violent clampdown of demonstrations and is paid off abductions and torture of government critics basis -pected government agents zimbabwe government spokesperson nick mangano denies the allegations nations government does much <unk> presents. If anybody suspected of having committed a crime governments will throw it institutions. Police arrests put people before trial and if convicted they will save their penalty. Hunguana says investigations into the abductions are ongoing for n._p._r. N._p._r. news. I'm ismay inari. Today is the day in nineteen sixty three when dr martin luther king addressed the march on washington from the steps of at the lincoln memorial well over two hundred thousand people were there to hear him delivered his. I have a dream speech. I'm korva coleman n._p._r. News this message passage comes from n._p._r. Sponsor comcast business gig fueled network solutions that help businesses go beyond the expected to do the extraordinary comcast business beyond fast learn more at comcast business dot com.
The latest Israel Gaza flare-up
"Two weeks ago? Israel air defenses. Intercepted two rockets over Tel Aviv. They'd been fired by militants in the Gaza Strip. And since then there's been retaliatory Israeli airstrikes, more rocketfire. It's one of the biggest military escalation between Israel and gossip's militants since they went to war in two thousand fourteen today on worldly, part of the bucks me podcast network. We're gonna break all this down for you. I'm Beecham here with Jen. Millions and outward. Hey, Lou, let's get a sense of perspective here, right, Jen. What is what has happened since the war in two thousand fourteen? So you've had a lot of low level flare ups and Beilin, right, especially on the border between Israel and the Gaza Strip. People have kind of not really been paying that much attention to the conflict in terms of like a full out war, but that'll change two weeks ago when two rockets were fired from Gaza toward Tel-Aviv. Now, that's a really big deal because the rockets are fired. This happens pretty regular. Early. Actually, they tend to hit way further south in Israel, and they should to land in areas that are kind of like open areas and don't injure people, usually or do much destruction. They're scary. But they don't tend to have a huge effect. Now, Tel Aviv is a huge major city in Israel. It's a major population center. And so this is a really big deal. The first time you've seen this in years when these rockets are incoming there's this air raid siren that goes off and people have to scramble to find their nearest bomb shelters. It's really terrified. So people, of course, expected esscalation. Sadly, that's what happened these really military claims that it hit around one hundred targets related to the group HAMAs, which has controlled Gaza for over a decade now, and if all the typical playbook for Israel where they hit these targets, but try to hit the ones where there aren't really people inside. So they hit empty buildings that relate to, you know, Joan development centers TV stations, those kinds of things and claim that no one really has died. But that's a pretty big jump to go from a couple of rockets or Vive towards hitting a hundred targets inside a very small piece of land in against an enemy that really cannot fight back against Israel airpower. Now at one point we thought that would be the end of it. But then another rocket was fired that when pretty far north in Israel, in fact, north of Tel Aviv hitting town central's are on and hit someone's house. They hit someone not only the hit someone's house the injured seven people inside, including several young very young children. It was it was a family and that in Israel. Well, is the kind of thing that will demand a significant military response now HAMAs the militant group that controls the Gaza Strip denied responsibility for this rocket fire, but Israel was furious. So we had more retaliatory airstrikes. And then it went a little bit further. So Israel, even called up its reservists in the idea and the Israel defense forces that made a lot of people think, oh, maybe we're gonna have like a full war. You know, it actual ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, which would be a huge terrifying. Escalation of war Benjamin Netanyahu was in the United States meet with President Trump when this second attack happens he immediately cut his trip. Short says, I gotta go right back. I gotta have emergency meetings with my security officials. We gotta figure out what to do. So it was this really terrifying. Escalation there's been this tentative ceasefire that isn't releasing to be holding that great. It's really tense right now is working behind the. To try to bro. Her some kind of agreement between the two sides. Absolutely. So why is all of this happening? Now, we should be up front. It's actually not really clear. What sparked the original rocket fire? A to be clear the first two rockets intercepted over Tel Aviv. According to these really newspaper, are it's the is really intelligence and military people think that those rockets were accidents like that's this isn't just an excuse that the militants are saying, this is what he's really military things and the other aspect here is that they're just political calculations on both sides that has led to the esscalation that we've seen just start with Israel their side of this. The political calculation in Israel. There's an election coming up on April, ninth big giant national election. Benjamin Netanyahu is once again as prime minister up again for election. He's the right wing candidate heat typically benefits and politicians on the right in general in Israel benefit from big security crises right before elections there. Very hawkish. They're very much more. We need to have a tougher position toward the Palestinians toward Gaza particular. And so in previous years, if there was a big security flare up end Benjamin Netanyahu and his party responded, very forcefully that tends to boost numbers and and help them. So on that side, there is some incentive to respond really forcefully by like Alex said hitting one hundred HAMAs military targets, but it's a little bit different this year. Right. It's tricky. So this time the this isn't like a straight right left election in Israel. There's a divide between the right, and the mainstream competition the centrist competition a new party led by a former chief of staff of the USO top Israel, General, right? And the skies names. Benny counts, he is a serious competitor. He's pulling ahead of Netanyahu right now. And so he, you know, as a former top general has really strong security, bona fides, right? And so. So Netanyahu could be concerned that any serious risk to his security or threat from Gaza might make us really voters flocked to the general not him. So in order to navigate that. He can't be seen as being weak or tough or slow, right? The political incentives point him to an overreaction not an under reaction to anything that continues to happen. Right. Which helps explain why he immediately cut his trip short. It was like I have to go back and be in my country because imagine this going down and our leaders not even here. He's over in America, derelict of duty, you gotta you gotta come home. That's reasonable a non-political grounds for exactly. To go who you also have to add in the fact that Netanyahu is currently under pending indictment for a series of corruption charges, including primary and fraud. So we have all of that next to this guy who's running against him as a centrist who's the strongest Isreaeli military general so on the Israeli side. Again, you have this incentive to escalate to respond forcefully. I should say I've heard from from experts about this that many who of course, incentive was to respond. But the the usual refrain was within reason as bad as it seems that it will bet as it is that Israel just sends, you know, a hundred or so airstrikes like that. In a weird way is a within reason response of this kind of like that's where we're at. And so the incentive for him to do a full blown war that we are worried about and it's still a possibility like that is something that he also wants to avoid right? It's worth saying neither side wants correct? A full blown war. Right. And that that actually does bring us to the Palestinian side, which is a lot murkier. Right because one of these really side, you have political incentives, but desire for a war Palestinian side. You have multiple different factions yet, but you also still have political incentives while also a desire to avoid a full-blown war. It's just a lot more complicated. Tomasz like we said has denied involvement in any of these rocket launches the first one there like it was an accident. We were cleaning the rockets machinery went off, which sure fine. Maybe the first time around that's fine. Excuse you try to second time. We'll see who among us has not been clearing a rocket accidentally fired one over television. It happened. Just shame on you. Exactly, but more seriously. How most does have some reason why it could be the ones actually doing this Tomasz again is in charge of the Gaza Strip was elected fairly democratic election. They've been in charge of running Gaza for a very long time and things aren't going great in the Gaza Strip not just because of HAMAs terrible management of the economy. But also in part because they're under Israeli blockade and have very difficult time getting basic goods food and medicine, but people in Gaza are not super thrilled with mosses leadership, and there have been protests and bit of an uprising against Maas. So if you're Maas, and you have all these people in your territory protesting, your leadership, and the lack of basic services starting esscalation toward war with Israel is a really good way to divert attention from the fact that you suck it running the territory under your control the problems that Gaza's home to a bunch of different milita. Fashions, right. One of them is Palestinian Islamic Jihad. There is some belief that this particular militant group which against independent nominally of a moss did fire. The rockets now must weird game with these groups often where it gives them tacit permission to fire. The rockets of it then says, oh, we didn't do it. It's no, we're not responsible, and that can engineer a security crisis to their benefit, right? But they avoid actual blame directly for it. Right. As a plausible deniability. The question is the extent which they are exerting control over the groups in this case, if it is in fact, one of these groups, which we don't know great difficult to figure out to make it even more complicated. Because why not there's some reporting out there, and it seems fairly credible. Although again, we haven't verified this ourselves that Iran with actually going over the heads of HAMAs directly to PJ to Palestine Islamic Jihad and telling them to fire. These rockets now why they would be doing that is a really complicated question. Bottom line, probably has to do something with elections if they were doing that. Right. Try to disrupt the election, maybe see if we can get Benjamin Netanyahu out of power bottom line is we don't really know who is behind this. But at the end of the day, Israel is still going to blame HAMAs because HAMAs is the organization in charge of this territory. So Israel has said in the past and again, look, even if it was PJ, right? This is your territory. This is your job you're in charge of security. And if there are rockets coming from your territory, we are going to blame you regardless of whether you pulled the trigger. Exactly, this is why you see these military very quickly after these rockets of shot to say HAMAs responsible now, obviously Israel has more intelligence than FOX dot com. Does. So maybe they actually know something that we don't affect. They definitely know something that we don't. But at the end of the day is also comes down to that. As Jim said, right? Like, regardless of if it is. Of course than blame them. If it's PI or Ron working with J O run by itself. Whatever may be at the end of the day. They're gonna go HAMAS's owned the Gaza Strip like, you know, the buck stops with you. But all of this chaos, not knowing who's behind it could be a rod could it be could it be HAMAs? Who do we talk to about this, right? If we need to sit down and talk about de-escalation, where do we go really highlights the crux of this crisis. Which is that that the really tense kind of stalemate that has been going on between Israel, and HAMAs and the Gaza Strip for years is never really stable. It's just not active at any given time. And then there are these flare ups, but even small things like this could have been an accident. Right. It could have been two accidents. But it causes this huge flare up because the situation underlying, right? There's no peace agreement. These people are actively still at war because that's not settled any little flair. Can lead to potentially massive escalation and another onset of a full blown conflict. There's another problem, which is that it is. More difficult to negotiate with moss than other Palestinian factions for an understanding of sort of why the international dynamics here. It's worth listening to US. Vice President Mike Pence at the American Israel Public affairs committees big conference on this Monday. Apec fees can only be to go shoot it with partners who are committed to tease. Today's rocket attack by HAMAs Crees that HAMAs is not a partner for peace. A Moscow is a terrorist organization that seeks the destruction of Israel and the United States will never negotiate with terrorists. That makes things a little tricky because the US could play a role in brokering peace. It doesn't want to do that in these situations because has idiological view that HAMAs cannot be negotiated with but how on earth or you're going to bring the situation in Gaza to at least more stable equilibrium without talking to one of the two major parties involved. Exactly. And he's right in the sense that Maas is a terrorist organization. That is true. It's also as a close friend of mine has done a lot of really amazing research on it's a hybrid organization, which is it's also a political body that again has legislators has people who run bureaucracies. And if you are going to ever make peace between, Israel and the Palestinians, you have this entire chunk of land the Gaza Strip that is governed by terrorist organization. So if you want to make peace they're going to have to be involved somehow or you're going to have to figure. Out a way to get them not to be in power anymore. And that's why we have still to this day ended up in this really awful stalemate. And let's not forget about how important it is to solve this hard. As it is. Because we've just we've just seen is that two plus rockets could up in an election lead to many people dead and Royal and already horrible situation. I mean that is almost the definition of like the knife edge. Right. It just constantly teetering on this brink. And if you're going to autumn medically not negotiate with one side that could push it one way or the other than you're just gonna let it fall. So we're gonna take a break right now. And when we come back, we're gonna talk about a much less. Heavy story about clocks. This episode is brought to you by Doha debates a debate series exploring collaborative solutions to global challenges the rise of robots and artificial intelligence isn't on the way, it's already here, but do the benefits outweigh the risks. On April third debates invites experts to discuss solutions to critical issues involving artificial intelligence don't settle for divided world. Tune into Doha debates live event on Twitter on April third at noon eastern time and join the conversation with Doha debates on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube. I'm musicologists. Nate Sloan songwriter. Charlie harding. We're the hosts of switched on pop the podcast where Charlie and I breakdown pop hits to reveal how the music works. And why it matters. It's our job to help you find those hob moments within the music, whether you're a pop fanatic or skeptic, a teenager or an octogenarian non musician or professional composer every music lover. Will discover something you're opening in swift on pop. Yeah. And we think you'll have a lot of fun with us because you're going to get to hear from amazing guests musicians songwriters producers journalists listen to switch on pop every week starting in March on the apple podcast app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week that you voted to scrap daylight savings time, which is interesting in and of itself because I really deeply despise time changes. But it's also interesting as part of our larger Brexit series. It gives you a little window into what exactly you know, the anti e u people in Britain and the rest of Europe think about the EU as an institutional body, but let's start with the sort of basic stuff. Right. So you leaders got together, and they voted to rid of daylight saving funds the times just different now. Yeah. So they got together and voted to abolish daylight saving time. This'll be starting in twenty twenty one and the basic reasons are one it's just down to constantly caused this disruption. There are plenty of scientific studies out there that it's like disruptive for health. They cited issues with disease because throws off people's circadian rhythms. Right. It's it throws off your sleep cycle or is off your schedule. Oil just cruise y'all up. I think. Yeah. This is something that my family in Spain has been complaining about forever. My especially believes that like the fact that the time changes makes her sicker. And it's just because she's generally always sick. But but it's mostly it just mostly has to do with like so one thing about Spain, particularly is that like prime time TV is late. So when the time changes like everyone's time is off. And so like her favorite show on come on until like eleven pm instead of ten pm, which has already stupid late for for a boy. Me, isn't it? Don't of Willis also in Spain eat dinner at like, ten PM, or whatever dinner is usually pretty late lunch is around three in the dinners around ten or eleven. So like, that's why prime time there's a whole bunch of reasons I'm always upset about Europe and time I've got other Spain related time things if you want me to go into so you can see why this was a big deal, you're based on personal testimony. When Lia made this decision, they cited like polls, this is widely popular widely supported to this change. But it doesn't mean that everyone support this change. Right. It's disruptive to businesses. They have been doing this for decades, and it's a big disruption to suddenly change. Okay. I think this is a really useful kind of microcosm of the issue. That people have like Brexit IRS with the EU. So you have this body, right? This the EU parliament that comes together, you have all these representatives from all these different, you know, twenty plus you countries getting together voting and making this decision that imp-. Pact's you in the UK or in Spain or wherever and it's like, I didn't vote for all of those parliamentarians. Right. I don't want, you know, maybe my Representative voted against this. But because it passed now I had to do with this random body way out. In Brussels told me I have to do. Now, I have to not change my clocks or do change my clocks, and it's the kind of decision that while this is pretty minor. Right. Imagine this is a vote on immigration policy or something, and you can see why people are like, screw you. I'm not going to do what you told me. I'm going to do what I wanna do in my own country. This is the common complaint about the you that there's a democratic deficit, and that the fact that there is super national body in Brussels taking decisions out of sovereign hands. Do this is what you hear furthest. Restitution here this everywhere that said, I'm I'm okay with this decision one because again, Europe time times bad and to actually European countries have used time as a way to make like political moves. Here's just another example from Spain. Because I've got thoughts. Before World War Two Spain actually chained spent like Barcelona by the way is like right on like directly south of London. And yet it moved its time one hour forward in order to be in line with Germany so that during World War Two like Spanish and German forces could better coordinate. Spain was not involved in World War Two although Hitler, did some stuff and Spain. But point being that like this is the kind of stuff that like actually countries can use time to their advantage to make political moves. And so like if we can take that nonsense out of European countries. Like, I'm fine with that too. I see that as the case for the EU. Right. Like, that's why you need something like this. When you want to coordinate more tightly across the continent. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Have like a broader set of rules that govern these things, and you could make the same democratic deficit argument if you wanted to about say, the US congress, right? If you're from Maryland and both of your Maryland representatives vote against in the Senate vote against a particular law and is still passes. Will you say Marylanders didn't want this rate? So the difference in Europe is that there isn't that shared sense of Gandhi. But not all European see the EU as the fundamental level of sovereignty. In fact, they believe it to be their country that should have the final say, that's where this anger seems to. And that's why you heard in the arguments for Brexit leading up to the original Brexit referendum a lot of calls for take back our sovereignty, right? And again, a lot of it was related to things like trade policy things like immigration policy, and we should probably note speaking of Brexit because the U K is well, Brexit and pulling out of the EU it did announce when this time change announcement was made that oh, yeah. We're totally. Gonna keep our own time daylight savings decision once out of the U because we don't have to do what you say anymore. Of course, they did. Of course, they look all right Burnley be as their I wanna thank our producer bird Pinkerton for all the great work that she does. And if you want to learn more about things that are happening Israel right now, specifically, the very interesting dynamic with the Golan Heights and US recognition Disraeli control there. You should listen to today. Explain a great episode on this check it out. And if you also want to even bigger favor, please we're giving audience survey. It's at vox media dot com slash pod survey. It really helps us out just takes a couple of. Hi, Martha Brooks and I'm back with the new season. The Arthur Brooks show this season is all about love on the show. I'm talking to social scientists about why we need love and how to get more of it. That's the earth abroad show. Subscribe now and apple podcasts or wherever you're listening to this.
"Hi I'm calling your host for the good news podcast and I'm neil the other host the good news. Podcast is your source for Good News Fun Stories Auditory Delight and Sonic Joy. We're bringing you all of this goodness from beautiful downtown Chicago Katie. Neither of US drink a lot of beer nami more known. There's some history there I you know I used to really get down Miller lights in my twenty s okay. What a choice. Well it was cheap and I didn't know any better but the problem was that you know just like in flight of the conchords. It really did make me have to toilet so also often slurp Yulia right through Ya. Nowadays Craft Beers are the rage. Oh everywhere there's a brewery everyone's throw will stick without a brewery. Everyone is talking about their local craft brewery. The hops the barley story. The row story ever brewery. But I find myself wishing more people would talk about their. Let's say it together and the kind of three one two three wastewater treatment plant. Yes you said her story and I said wastewater treatment plant. Yeah Yeah you're so I bring up local breweries and I bring up wastewater treatment because I heard great story. Npr Levin and they were telling me about a wastewater treatment plant in Bozeman Montana. Okay where they are feeding their bacteria the waste from their local brewery. What so okay. I'm just going to clarify that in my mind. I thought you were GonNa say that the brewery waste of like the mushed up barley. Just GonNa be fed to some cows. I thought that's what you were going to say. Sure you didn't. I realized I had no idea what well trade out. Cows for bacteria whose bacteria the bacteria in the wastewater treatment press. Oh okay so. The Kaka from leftover barley goes into the big filters in town that get make our water. Safe yes cool. Yeah so I love of creative reuse of something. That would otherwise be garbage. Oh you love that and I particularly love this because it reminds me of. I think a magic school bus book slash episode of the TV show where they go through the wastewater treatment process. Remember that one and it made the entire process seem like really fun and I remember that. There's a part where are dirty water goes in it. Settles and it's just a big pool. You've probably seen him off the highway. Issur and I feel like there's a big spinning rake that sort of agitating stuff and in their bacteria is doing the hard work breaking down solids eating up all the all the Pupo and if you feed that bacteria some barley from the process the waste. It kicks it up. And that's a really really good is Michael. And the bacteria eats the nitrogen and the phosphorus which is a particularly nasty part of the wastewater and it helps to really cut that down laugh. Incredible the idea of giving your bacteria a little bit of a snack to help it. Better digest wastewater. Just tickles me. Oh well tickles me raw okay. That's an image. I think we should go. Have a beer at a local brewery to encourage. Yes my question for you. Katie if your garbage could be reused to help the community what would what piece of garbage. And how would you like to be like all of my single use plastic Which we have done a very good job of minimizing we're trying to make my own Hamas now so there's that I'd like my single use plastic to fuel a fire to feed people. You know fuel a kitchen. Whoa food to feed people who need food. Yeah that's a great idea. I like the very tight circle. If drawn between your trash and feeding someone else. Well you know that I collect jars do know that. I just know that I can make them into something interesting. I know you can't but you haven't but I haven't. I remember that we watched an episode of grand designs. Live for where someone was building their own home and they were. It had kind of like an earthen vibe to it and for one of the walls he put all the old beer bottles into the wall that they became. Kinda like this beautiful stained glass display. So I'd like all of the jars that I've been keeping to be used to create some kind of sculptural years. Israel mine was like. Thanks for listening. Do you have good news? Incredible or maybe. WanNa tell us a joke or idea. Excellent email us at. Hello at the good news podcasts. Dot FM or. Leave us a voicemail. Seven three two one seven zero one five six. You can also tweet us at the Good News Pot and follow us on instagram. And if you love the good news podcast think about supporting us on our patriotic page. Most of our music by putting bear.
El Chapo trial starts, Paradise wildfire survivor, 7-Eleven and ICE
"I'm Marco werman before we get to the show. We have some news when you make a gift to PR is the world. Now your contribution will be matched dollar for dollar. Visit the world dot ORG slash match to make a gift and thanks for your support the trial of a criminal kingpin today on the world. I'm Marco werman, the Mexican drug Lord, El Chapo, went on trial in Brooklyn today. Security is a huge concern. Especially for the jury, for example, a Michael Jackson and personality was dismissed because they said he could be easily identified in trying to keep the jury anonymous for their safety. L job could be looking at life in prison, but his drug and human trafficking cartel is still going strong that's still huge in cocaine heroin and has been a huge boom for them because of the opioid epidemic in the United States. And then they also added fennel to their portfolio how the sin alot cartel works with or without El Chapo, that's today right here on the world. I'm Marco werman and you're with the world for a drug cartel kingpin. The nickname shorty is a striking contrast to the crimes he's charged with and now he's on trial while Keane L Chapo Guzman entered court today in New York City, he was once Mexico's most feared cartel leader. Repeatedly escaped the grasp of Mexican authorities and famously broke out of jail twice in Mexico. Remember the meticulously dug tunnel with its own rail system. This is the closest that we've been allowed to get to El Chapo whose tunnel the tunnel. He used in his brazen escape on Saturday night. It is by all accounts and magnificent feat of engineering because let's come on L Joppa was nabbed again in two thousand sixteen and extradited to the US last year. He's no answering to a long list of crimes, including his Sinoloa drug cartels, deep reach into this country. The BBC's net towel fee is at the courthouse in Brooklyn. So just tell us what the scene was today as the trial got underway. Well, this try. L took place under heavy security. I'll Chapo Guzman is being held in solitary confinement in lower Manhattan into every time that he's transferred here to the courthouse. The Brooklyn Bridge is shut down a heavily armed motorcade brings him across the bridge. There is international media here. Because of course, he is the world's most powerful drug Lord who ran an international operation. And so this case has gotten a lot of attention. So just reminded what charges is facing in wise. He being tried in the US after escaping from a Mexican jail. Well, he is facing a seventeen criminal count indictment. The charges range from trafficking fourteen billion dollars worth of cocaine heroin and other drugs in the United States as well as money laundering charges and weapon. Offenses his indictment is really a consolidation of charges from across six different federal districts in the country. Sorry, including New York, Chicago, Miami, all places that have been greatly affected. A by the drug trade ya. I heard none of the jury selection was pretty difficult for this trial. Can explain why? Yeah. Absolutely. I think underscoring just how complex this is. They had questionnaire sent two thousand people and they interviewed close to a hundred people in person. Now, several of the juries expressed fear to serve others were too easily identifiable, for example, a Michael Jackson impersonator was dismissed because they said he could be easily identified in. They're trying to keep the jury anonymous for their safety. Another person said he was a fan of El Chapo and ask for an autograph. So he was promptly dismissed. And today we had opening statements delayed because one woman who cried last week when she found out. She was chosen had a doctor's note saying that she suffered several medical issues. Because she had been selected. And so the judge did decide to dismiss her saying, you know, he was a phrase that she could suffer a breakdown out of the anxiety. She was feeling so so far the jurors have heard nothing. That's right. You know, this is going to be a four month on trial and hanged. So this certainly underscores how lengthy this all could be, but we know that prosecutors, for example, have hundreds of pages of documents audio recordings from El Chapo discussing certain drug transactions. They say they have physical evidence like drug ledgers from Colombian cartel bosses where they detail their deals with El Chapo, and we know that you're they also have cooperating witnesses, including one of El Chapo, former lieutenants, did you catch a glance of L troppo today. What is his demeanor? We'll El Chapo came into court, wearing a suit and tie. He briefly wave to his wife, and you know, he is really kind of an opposing figure in person, his nickname, El Chapo. Shorty because he is five six he is known to be very charismatic in person. That's one of the things that several of the defense attorneys and prosecutors mentioned the BBC's Netafim outside the federal courthouse in Brooklyn where L chop trial got underway today. Let's shift focus to his drug trafficking empire. It's still doing brisk business. Apparently, my interviews and investigations suggests that business is still booming for the Senate cartel. Deborah Brunello is a journalist based in Mexico City. She specializes in organized crime in the Americas and has been looking at the sin alot cartels operations since El Chapo was extradited to the US heroin has been a huge boom for them because of the opioid epidemic in the United States. And the fact that you have so many people switching from prescription painkillers to Mexican heroin methamphetamine is still a huge business for them. And then they also add. Fenton to that folio. It seems like part of the reason why the Sinoloa cartel has been able to thrive even without El Chapo is geography. So some people say, I know there are a lot of advantages to operating out of the state of Sinoloa and just tell us about cinema. Where exactly is it and what are the advantages? Well, Sinoloa is it's a northern state that Hsieh's boulder with the United States. It's southern pot foams Paul of the golden triangle, which is the kind of the ripest cultivation in Mexico. So the climate lends itself to heroin and marijuana cultivation pots of cinema Olso very rural. So it's easier to nurture drug clunk cultivation in those owns, you know, this legend about chapel and Cinna Noah is no law. You know, you speak to people and for for very many people. He is a kind of growth in hood character. Not so much stealing from the state, but providing jobs and. Buying the product of thousands of small-scale farmers who a producing marijuana and poppy plants. So that's the seved as benefactors, and when there of floods, and that's real disasters aid often turns up carrying ga-. No goes and initials connected to a chapel and that mile and and other other important people in the organization, so they have a very important social status as well. As the fact that Paul of Mexico lends itself to cultivation, and of course, to transportation because it has that shed Bodo with the US you also in their mentioned elmira reminded who he is is my at miles on bad. I mean, he is another legendary drug king kingpin to my understanding. He is the only powerful person with innocent ELO cartel who hasn't Cindy inside of a jail. So he is now sharing power with a temple was brother as well. As his. To his his sons. So you have a lot of different power factions now in what is an increasingly fragmented organization, but my understanding is that at mile is kind of sitting on top of that and rhetoric in a way and making sure that things carry on running smooth. Then I know that in the past L troppo had been able to kind of run the cartel. Even from prison got a via remote control is that the case today. One of the points of his extradition is the it takes away any influence. He could have now being in a maximum security prison in the United States is very different from being in one in Mexico. So taking him to the United States in itself would have kind of shut that down. I think, but, but but are you certain that he's not pulling strings from his prison Bill? I mean, he's a widely character El Chapo, he is. But I also think the big threats that we're seeing to the future of this. Nilo cartel. All not do you to the arrests an extradition of chapel? You know, I think you know, law enforcement would say I'm sure that he had to pay for what he did. And that's great. But it has not had the organizational impact they were looking for. I think more of a threat now to Sinoloa of the rising criminal powers that you're seeing a Mexico. And I think a lot of the violence that we've seen which is at an all time high now in Mexico is to do with conflict between oganizations over leadership territory roots, and those kinds of things so Debra from your perch in Mexico City, what would an El Chapo conviction actually due to the drug trade in violence. I I hate to say it, but but very little I think it will set an important example to other people in the criminal underworld of where they may end up, but in terms of the day today, I don't think in our chapel conviction is going to have very much impact on. On what's happening in Mexico right now, the Bonello journalists and researcher based in Mexico City. Thank you very much. Deborah great talking to you, Monaco. If you were with us three years ago today, you would have heard this Francis. In a state of emergency right now after multiple attacks in Paris this evening, we've been following this breaking news all this hour. Police in Paris say there are several people dead. But it's too early to say how many and a hostage situation in a concert hall in the French capital is ongoing. My colleague Jeb sharp there with our coverage on the night of November thirteenth twenty fifteen. Isis militants had attacked multiple targets in Paris, killing one hundred thirty people most of the victims were inside that concert hall. The buttock lawn for DeVille was there that night watching a concert by the eagles of death metal. He first described his experience in an illustrative memoir called my buttocks. Mom now, he has a second book it details. His recovery. Emma Jacobs has his story. In the opening pages of Fred DeVille latest graphic memoir. He arrives in the French countryside with his wife and children really a wish to be quiet for free week. We've no Paris, no radio. No computers. It was the summer of two thousand sixteen and his family's first real vacation since the attack at the bottom Klein detailed managed to survive that night by pretending to be dead on holiday he and his family walked in the woods. Played cards went on picnics all recorded in detailed black and white trying. Then a few days into their stay are just switch on the radio in the call to plug in his phone to play music earned on heard friends is in wall on the bike. The night before an ISIS supporter had driven a truck through a crowd in niece gathered to watch Basile day fireworks, killing eighty six people after its shock such big choke. His memories came crashing back to fields new book is called l'amour sewer, which translates as the buffet the native about a client attack in November twenty fifteen. He says was like being bitten by a snake for me in my mind, and in by Houghton my body for him that snake represents fear and hate that linger throughout his graphic memoir. A black stain expands and contracts on his arm with the darkness of his mood after niece, the Blackstone grows and threatens to overwhelm him. When he spends time with his children it recedes, but is always present divide compares life. Since he survived about a clown to living in an elevator. Booze really fine one days. Oh for one night is crazy. And we don't sleep one night is absolutely marvelous seemingly small things can trigger his fear and anxiety with Tim, boo. Something I saw on the TV an emergency. Call bussing treats, it can be playing that. I in kitchen DeVille who has fifty wine worked as a medical illustrator for more than twenty years. But he is now spent three years on and off creating panels about the backline line and his life since then if you want to forget something you have to will commit Pugh to take distance this bacteria, two years to complete and even now he's still has violent nightmares old whiz rifle attack, but the nightmares. Don't come as often as they used to drawing me. And the only way to me explain the Finn, you are fatal. If you want to forget it. He says his children have continued to help to his youngest is six v don't show, but in what would you all you don't want it? But daddy, I want to go playing to the park. Okay. Let's go to the park, and then growing to the bow Hugh illegal build singing, and oh just life is outside. So he still has bad days. But the mode now are Gooden, and they are, but he has also started work on a third book for the world. I'm jacobs. You can see some of the nation's from Fred DeVille memoir. That's at the world dot ORG and still ahead. She barely made it out of paradise California with her baby. How they're doing today. That's coming up here on the world. Support for this podcast comes from Babbel, people around the world are learning new languages with the Babbel language learning app. And you can to learn Spanish French Italian German Russian Swedish and more with Babbel's ten to fifteen minute lessons. Babble users say that they're amazed at how fast they learned. And that they're confident in speaking their new language start learning a new language today. Just go to babble dot com and use the offer code world to get fifty percent off your first three months, that's Babbel, B A B B E L dot com. Offer code world. For fifty percent off your first three months. Go to Omaha Steaks dot com and enter the code world into the search bar to get seventy four percent off Omaha Steaks family gift package now only forty nine ninety nine order now and you'll get four hand-cut age to tenderness top sirloin steaks to savory premium pork chops. For chicken fried steaks for Omaha Steaks burgers for snappy, kill basa sausages, all beef meatballs for perfectly Brown potatoes. Au gratin for made from scratch caramel, apple tartlets. Plus get four more burgers for free again. Just go to Omaha Steaks dot com. Type world into the search bar and add the family gift package to your cart. Don't wait order today. I'm Marco werman. You're with the world Germany has a reputation as a clean energy leader, the country's use of renewable power that is a big part of its effort to fight climate change. But there's another side that Germany's energy story the country. Still burns a lot of coal for years. It's put off a decision on when it should stop. Now. The battle over Colin Germany is heating up and the flash point is a forest. Valerie Hamilton has a story a few weeks ago. I got a voice message from a former colleague of mine who was out in the humble her forest in western Germany. His name is to be us. And he was spending the night in the woods with some climate activists. They had been occupying the forest for years and things were finally coming to ahead. Okay. Pecking at night, people fighting back not that barricade. Doesn't have enough applied. The activists had been fighting for weeks with police trying to clear them out it sounded intents. I asked him to make recordings. The protesters were there to try to keep the forest from being cut down on Bacher forest sits on the edge of a huge open pit coal mine. The energy company are w e owns the mine and the forest and over decades. It's been cutting it down to dig out the coal underneath a few years back climate activists built dozens of tree houses and moved in to try to protect what's left. Finally, this fall are w e called in the police to victim. Police used chainsaws to break through barricades and put activists from the trees on cherry pickers, the tree houses were destroyed. Some activists went to jail and in all the chaos a journalist fell from a tree and died. It was ugly, and many said unnecessary because the thing is Germany has already decided Kohl's days are numbered. Everyone knows that we have to exit co and the question is not only how fast Patrick Bracken leads Agra energy Venda, a climate think tank in Berlin that studies the energy Venda Germany's transition to cleaner energy sources in some ways. The transition has been really successful Germany now gets more than a third of its electricity from renewables, but roughly another third still comes from burning coal in Germany has struggled to kick that habit. That's why it was a big deal when the government decided this year to come up with a deadline for coal exit. And that's why when our W E said it was going ahead with plans to cut down humble her forest. Anyway, Bracken says a lot of people were surprised that contradiction of Germany being a front runner on the energy Venda, plus having established a commission on the phase out of coal. All and then at the same time that keep on lugging trees to get to the call florist in Germany is something that routes very deep in people's hearts, Gaydos. Stephan grew up around Humboldt or forest and used to ride his bike there as a child even he told me it's a pity to cut down the forest, and he's a spokesman for the energy company are w e we know there is a coal exit RWE is changing to renewables too. But Stephan says Germany still needs Cole. He says renewables aren't reliable enough yet? Plus humble her forest and the coal underneath it are are W E property. I mean, we have permits we have court cases that also stated humble mine is alright are w e made a big mistake. That's Patrick Bracken again thought at the same time while the co commission was debating about the future of coal. They could go on doing business as usual. And of course. That was the key trigger to mobilize the environmental movement in Germany, it started slowly local people like to be as in his family. Joining activists for a walk in the woods. But then it snowballed hundreds came then tens of thousands. By accident. Humble her forest became the poster child for Germany's choice about coal. This is now a highly political topic. It's on top of the news Graham says the whole country is watching and expecting a solution. Failing would be a disaster for German politics. The commission is supposed to come up with a final date for coal exit by early December leaks to German media have talked about shutting down coal plants in twenty years or less that's about a decade sooner than the coal industry wants, but not soon enough for environmental groups, whatever the commission decides for now. Humble her forest is safe last month in an unexpected twist. A state court ruled that are w we can't cut anymore trees there until twenty twenty at the earliest. In the meantime, the standoff is back on last month twenty thousand coal workers marched in support of the mine days later, six thousand activists, blah. Act coal train. A recent sunny Sunday hundreds of people road bikes twenty five miles out to the forest carrying flags that said, stop coal and save the trees. Since Germany's plans for coal exit. Put humble for forest in the spotlight in some ways. Everything has changed. But you can also say nothing has activists are back pitching tents and hanging protest banners. Just a few hundred yards away. Our W A is still mining coal and here in the shade of oak trees, three guys or hammering away at a new tree house for the world. Valerie Hamilton humble for forest. Germany. The fight over coal and Germany comes down in part to how quickly we move to fight climate change for tens of thousands of people in California. We can't move quickly enough. You heard here yesterday. How climate change is playing a big role in the fires. That are devastating parts of that state. Again, we also heard yesterday from a distraught Ellen Vandenberg as she fled the fire in paradise, California with her baby, son. We wanted to see how she's doing today. I'm staying with my husband's mother more about an hour and a half south near the Sacramento area and your five-month-old-son. How's he doing? He know he's handles everything. Pretty well. When I was driving down when everything was really crazy. He just sort of got really calm and put a little arms around me. And you know, he kinda turned his head sideways and put it on my chest. And he just hung out. You know, you do you have any idea what happened to your family's house? I don't I mean. I don't have any real hope that houses there. It's hard to be upset about my little house and all my little things that I've collected over my lifetime. When everybody lost everything, you know. It's almost like the scale of it is so big that it's hard to say, you know, oh, I really loved that thing ever though to to kind of have to kind of find yourself in. That mindset it is it is what happened to me was a lot from me. You know, I feel guilty about not being able to have done more. You know, why didn't I grab how many input them in my car? There were people that didn't make it. There were people that were running on the side of the road. You know, it's like I, you know, it's kinda hard to wrap my head around. I know there's a lot of relief efforts going on a go fund may campaigns. Have you been benefiting from any of this? I have yes, a friend. Did a gofundme page for us. And I am just Florida at how much the port has been pouring in. I mean, and then the other thing is when I went down to Chico. We went down. Into the WalMart parking lot. And there were just hundreds of people helping. The people in food, trucks, and clothing and bags of people approaching a saying hair you from paradise. What do you need? I feel you know, honor that people are so willing to do anything to help us Ellen Vandenberg resident of paradise California. Thank you very much. It's good to speak with you. Thank you so much ticker before we get back to the show. We have some exciting news. Pierre is the world is participating in news match a campaign to raise money for high quality independent journalism when you make a gift to the world. Now, your gift will be matched dollar for dollar listener donations help fund our staff of reporters and producers international reporting assignments and the equipment here in our studio that makes this show happen every day. Visit the world dot ORG slash match to make her gift and thanks very much for your support. I'm Marco werman. A new recording doesn't directly implicates Saudi Arabia's crown prince in the murder of democracy Shoghi. But it comes close a Saudi dissident tells us what that means for her. I feel safe are now because I guess whether comington men would like to have another scandal on a global scale that story still ahead here on the world. I'm Marco werman. And you're with the world where co production of the BBC World Service PRI and WG be h here in Boston. There is potentially significant news out of the Middle East today. A possible ceasefire between Israel and the Palestinian militant group HAMAs HAMAs controls the Gaza Strip and over the last few days to size looked like they were heading toward another all out war. It's still not clear if a new ceasefire would hold the world's Matthew bell reports. There's pressure on both sides to take a hard line up until Sunday. Things were going relatively well in the Gaza Strip. Egypt had helped broker a deal over the past year. That was starting to bear fruit. Tens of millions of dollars from Qatar was flowing into Gaza to provide months of back pay for civil servants and for desperately needed electricity. Life for many Gazans was looking up until Sunday evening. When a special is what really unit infiltrated into the Gaza stead and lashed out with Qassam. Brigades? The military will HAMAs timer Abu Saadeh teaches political science at all us our university in Gaza in the shooting that followed seven Palestinians were killed, including a HAMAs military commander the Israeli officer in command of that unit was killed as well. Besides says things only escalated from there. The Knicks day amass decided to retaliate against this way to infancy shin by to coordinate, I'm KAI tank missile againist on his boss. That's sound from a YouTube video released by HAMAs showing the attack on the Israeli bus on Monday. One Isreaeli soldier was injured in that explosion since then Isreaeli jets have bombed more than one hundred fifty targets in the Gaza Strip and Palestinian militants have fired more than four hundred fifty rockets and mortars into Israel, Israel, and HAMAs have gone to war three times since some aas took control of Gaza in two thousand seven, but obviously says despite the events of recent days, the leaders on both sides seem to want to avoid another war. Even though the situation is has been escalated, and this is the worst is commission between us and Israel since the Israeli offensive into some of twenty fourteen. I still believe that the situation has gotten out of control. And there is a lot of room for Egypt and the UN to intervene. And local a new ceasefire between have later on Tuesday. There was talk of just that HAMAs said it was possible to return to a ceasefire if Israel aggression stopped and in Israel official confirmed that a ceasefire agreement had been reached. But soon after that is Rayleigh ministers started lining up against the idea of stopping the air strikes against HAMAs. Just yet it's of the HAMAs picture. What's up commercial? That's up position leader a year played accused Israel, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of surrendering to HAMAs. He mentioned the residents of southern Israel who've been targeted by Palestinian rockets and suggested that the bombing in Gaza should continue over Salzburg is an analyst based in Jerusalem with the International Crisis Group. He says it's clear that both HAMAs and the Netanyahu government want to avoid another war. But they both. Faye? Strong political opposition at home public opinions on both sides of any hostile to the very notion of cooperation there is also a lot of massage and continuing military activities by Israel against HAMAs both in terms of intelligence collection and other things, and they'll go within Gaza who still would like to act militarily against this makes the corporation much more difficult instead of hard to cooperate and fights simultaneously Salzburg says cooperation is only going to get more difficult as time goes on. Because the ceasefire is one part of a larger process of negotiations. Hamas has signaled a willingness to ease tensions with Israel in return for the lifting of the blockade of the Gaza Strip. But it faces pressure from rival Palestinian factions and Israel is looking at a national election coming up in two thousand nineteen and political leaders there will be tempted to talk tough on. Gaza for the world. I'm Matthew bell last month. Just minutes after Saudi journalist Jamal kashogi was murdered inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. One of the men involved in his assassination made a call to a superior. The man told the official to tell your boss that the mission had been carried out that account by the New York Times comes from people who've heard a recording of the aftermath of the killing obtained by Turkish intelligence Saudi scholar Madawi our she teaches at the London School of economics. She says there's little doubt what the speaker meant by tell your boss that is no point in thinking that somebody else, and then television services or other princes had ordered this operation simply because for the last two years old powers in Saudi Arabia across attracted in the hand of the crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, and he has his team prepared for. The kind of operations. I know you've been announced Bokan opponent of the Saudi regime, you're now in London. But are you worried for your own safety, or do, you know, if you're on a list, I have no idea if I'm on Venice? But most probably I have been put on some kind of list, except I have been threatened before a a long time ago when I started writing and at one point the Saudi ambassador in Paris conveyed, a message to my father at the time to say that if I continue to call Bush, and it was a book that I was planning to publish entitled the history of Saudi Arabia, and if I continue with the project, and publish it. They would take the splitter the action, however, at the moment, I think Gemma hush abuse paid with his life, and I feel safer now because I doubt whether how had been said man would like to have another scandal on a global scale. In fact, I think this crisis after. Murder of hustle made. Quite a lot of Saudi dissidents abroad asylum seekers in the US in Canada and here in London safer, however, in the Arab world, it is possible that he would be able to reach the ones he put on the blacklist. So your sense that this goes all the way to the top is supported by something else that we learned this week that top Saudi intelligence officials close the crown prince Mohammad bin Salman talked with a group of businessmen last year about using private companies to assassinate their enemies in Iran. It's kind of extraordinary. What do we know about this discussions plans that had been discussed, but they were delayed as Hamad bin Salman told that it is better to wait for the American elections of a President Donald Trump and later reveal what his plans are and perhaps discuss them with a US administration. And I wouldn't be surprised if bin Salman wanted to talk. Get at certain individuals in Iran, but that is difficult diff- different situation from targeting your own citizens abroad such as your mouth hush obedient. So what do you think is the way forward? Do you think? Mohammed. Bin someone's wings have been clipped by the aftermath of the assassination will Washington and Riyadh. Go back to business as usual in the aftermath of this. I do not envisage that business as usual will be at the right option for the US administration. This sort of unconditional support for 'em BS has to stop. And I think that congress could perhaps stop this in terms of making a difficult for the president to order ourselves to Saudi Arabia without those being checked and without conditions attached. So a CIA director Gina hospital heard an audio tape of Kashoggi's killing in on CRE. She apparently briefed the president on this. Will there be any space? Left for anybody to deny what happened a lot of people at this stage. No exactly what happened. They are. Just hold the onto the information. Whether it is Turkey or they US Britain and Canada. And the reason why they're holding on to them is perhaps trying to find a face-saving policy that would not directly condemn an had been mad. But I think these countries who have audiotapes have immoral responsibility to the world to the journalists who the family of hush ability to make this public so one last thing if Jamal Kashoggi's body is missing which a lot of evidencing support to that. I mean, what does that mean for his family for for Saudis? It is devastating for his children for his fiancee to to dissolve that body as. As an edge as reported in the media is at her to act, and in Islam culture. It is very very difficult to keep a gem. Oh, hush Ajay in Limbaugh. He's disappeared. He's mad, but there is no body. And no, no real funeral can take place to just simply put an enter the grief of his family who do not know where is body is at the moment. Madawi al-rasheed teaches at the London School of economics. Thank you for being with us. Thank you Mohammed bin Salman, and the other royals and Saudi Arabia have long been the target of Saudi activists. The activists used to rely heavily on Twitter to express their opposition to the monarchs policies. One of Saudi Arabia's leading activists. Now says that strategy has run its course Manal I'll show reviews Twitter to help spark or campaign to win Saudi women the right to drive now. She says she's done with Twitter. I drove a car and for my actions. Authorities in the secret police to my house in the middle of the night today, m when driving for women was bent cod. I posted that on YouTube between vital and that sorts. You didn't like that? They should the police have seen in the middle of the night. Someone new I lived when if the neighbors he also had Twitter account he came and he was tweeting law minute by minute. What happened? The other is is just countries. Just go missing quietly. No one knows about you. So I do have a personal to Twitter at that time, and to your friend, Omar who was so brave to live tweet. What was going on what happened to Omar? He asked me to the link to his Twitter account because the troll started following him now and harassing him. Now, seven years later, and that tells you something that tells you that we needed lost at battle when it comes to Twitter to push for social, change and human voice in my country. So social media platforms. They were big help for Saudi activists. At least initially I know Saudi Arabia took to Twitter with more enthusiasm than anywhere else in the Arab world. But the government to Saudi Arabia. They kind of got wise to you. What did they start to do when they always fictive, ladies, they just took over Kazakhs holiday conduct that convenience connected. Formation about people the state phone debt. They can many police or they can die millions of tweets of compensation Twitter. So that made it very. Klay to the state that they can play with that the hashtags they can play with creating a lot of fake and malicious accounts. So it sounds like the more civilians in Saudi Arabia's started using social media and Twitter, specifically, the more the government pushback and shaped and molded Twitter in their own vision. If you look at the week Jamaa should gate was so the week kashogi disappeared find second back into Tober when they find any consistent of Tober sixteen. If you look at the trending hashtags that exact week. It was I am at up an image on monitor presents me that was telling me that we lost. It those trends that I see in Schmidt being controlled by such job government chose and adults and onto the week that I just like I'm not part of this anymore. This perhaps shouldn't be a surprise to us because I know your own experience on Twitter changed dramatically last year with the arrival of something known as the electron. Flies. What happened there? Those people pay. They pay them to run hundreds of calms under one person one individual and those accounts, harass intimidate and spread foles news. And also pro government knows and Saudi Arabia now, I have to ask you one more thing. Manal you recently deleted your Twitter account, it meant disconnecting from your nearly three hundred thousand followers though, and that means your voices, no loss to hundreds of thousands of Saudi Arabians. Why not stay in the conversation and fight the propaganda your safely out of the country. Just in question. I stated a conversation for seven years using Twitter is not affected because you are not into conversation. Yeah. Flushed out of the conversation, you'd intimated if a day you to see districts of today, you wanna keep your mental health. So they used it to play a psychology games on activists by TIMMY, dating spreading theater, and that's why. I to want to be part of that I open now a manning how to v logging. So I I d- opened by YouTube channel, and I'm going to start using that to speak up. They should be afraid not us. So you found that Twitter's downsides actually have overtaken its upsides. Unfortunately. Yes, mono, I'll show reface Saudi women's rights activists speaking with us from New York, very good to meet you. And thank you for your time. Thank you same here. Seven eleven is the convenience store for many people countless locations, many of them open round the clock. But there's a secret war behind the scenes, the seven eleven company versus seven eleven franchise owners, the company's been accused of using underhand tactics in this war. One example turning franchises into targets and President Trump's immigration crackdown less January ninety eight stores across the country were raided by immigration and customs enforcement on the same day. I say giants demand a workers documentation and made several arrests. Michael Smith of Bloomberg BusinessWeek says raids of seven eleven stores have continued on a smaller scale since then I asked him how ice got involved. Well, it's hard to say. But what we do know is that as far back as twenty ten ice and the US attorney's office in New York in this case launched a major investigation into the company, which by the way, seven eleven is a franchise company means every store is independently oppa. Rated and they found a grievous violations of human trafficking laws and also immigration law. So that kind of put the company in the federal admit spotlight too big to re because the information the feds guide or in their investigation. Seven eight years ago at that time seven eleven Inc apparent company turned over payroll records for almost all its stores to the federal government. And we have sources close to the company that say that the government is probably been mining that data ever since. So it's relatively easy for them to target specific stores with these kind of operations what you just described. There does seem like as part of the tension between the seven eleven company and its franchises. It goes back a ways history what what is the conflict, and how long has this been going on for? For the large part of less decade. There's been intense conflict like you say between a corporation seven eleven which is owned by Japanese company and its stores, which are basically it's customers and the tension revolves around the corporations intent basically to get a larger and larger share of the revenue that each store delivers. So there's been all kinds of pushback from the store owners. They've sued company multiple times, the company has sued them multiple times. And there's just been this really dirty campaign by the operation intended to sort of get rid of the outspoken critics of the corporation to really nasty fight an immigration has sort of been at the center of it. Yeah. I mean, there've been some pretty aggressive tactics at corporate has used against franchises in the past. Right. Yeah. That's correct. Some of the lawsuits franchisees have filed read like spinal hope a company that has created increasing -nificant private force of private investigators to investigate wrongdoing in stores and they use tactics. Like surveillance fans disguised as plumber's truck. Mobile GPS units that they used attract people and just surveillance teams that targeted specific store owners that they felt shouldn't be a part of the seven eleven franchise in one case a franchisee sued the company, you know, one of the investigators was trailing him. And he claims that the guy tried to run him down and suit was settled by seven eleven it's just almost unbelievable. Some of the tactics you can read about in this litigation and is the overall aim here by corporate to extract more profit from the franchisees. Well, it's hard to say what their aim really is. But their strategy has effectively done that there are multiple things that store owners have to comply with and if they don't comply with those. They can be cited. And if you get enough citations for seemingly minor things in some cases, the company can actually take your store away. And they don't have to pay you any money in compensation. So it's it's serious business for the store operators and for the corporation. There's just this really antagonist relationship where you have some pretty independent minded and independently operated store. Owners that are pushing back and opposing some of these measures and trying to negotiate a better deal. And a lot of those same store owners have had their stores taken away. And there's a battle going on the courts in Chicago where seven eleven basically sees all eight stores of probably one of the most vocal franchisees in the country and had been highly critical of the company and its policies, and they went in and sees them and in their argument for sees stores. They cited rates on this particular store owner stores by ice. So it's a central part of their legal argument to get those stores back Michael in your research for Bloomberg you found personnel shifts over the years at seven eleven they had a CEO, James keys, and he seemed to defend the immigrant owners of seven eleven then this new CEO steps in Joe Pinto, and he seems to be more rigorous on immigration and seizing franchises where the owners are not following the rules is this personality shift at seven eleven crucial to kind of understanding why these rates are happening. Well, that's what a lot of the franchisees say the previous. CEO celebrated the sort of immigrant legacy of the company. You gotta understand seven eleven really is seen as the way to realize the American dream by many of the store owners and thousands and thousands of them off into the franchise in the seventies eighties and nineties believing that this was their way to really make it in America. I mean, you hear that time and time again and the company celebrated that they held one of their birthday celebrations for the corporation at Ellis Island, just to bring that home. And you're right. Let's see yo that took over in the mid two thousand Joe depend to- he's an army vet, and he's you know, he he likes military precision. According to people that have worked with him, and that has sort of come down the wrong way for some of the franchisees, and they feel like seven eleven from sort of helping rat out store owners to Gratien answer the government to try to get rid of them seven eleven of course, denies this. As you say seven eleven is this kind of totem of the American dream. It's also one of the most recognized American brands on the planet. I mean, you find them in Indonesia Iceland. I gathered there sixty seven thousand plus. Seven elevens around the world now, but with the anti immigrant tone at seven eleven what's going to do to its reputation and bottom line. What are you hearing the franchisees say that it's really really difficult to make a decent living running one of these stores, and I had many who had franchises for ten twenty years saying if I could do it again, if I were getting into the business now, I would never buy one of these franchises because you just cannot make money if you comply with the rules like you should they economics don't work. So it's unclear what impact that's having right now. The company is requiring everyone to sign a new agreement that that the store owners say will take even more of their money and make it even harder to turn a profit to make a living. There's huge numbers of stores that are up for sale people are just trying to get out what that means in the future for the company. I don't really know. But it's clearly a difficult business model these days that was Bloomberg BusinessWeek reporter Michael Smith before we go today. A few words from Stanley the brains behind the spirit of mar. Comics left us yesterday at the age of ninety five right after the news broke of video of Lee started making the rounds online here recorded it just over a year ago in the wake of the white supremacist violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, here's a moment from that video where Lee reminds us what made his superhero story special those stories of room for everyone regardless of race, gender, religion or color of this gin. The only things we don't have room for or hatred in tollerance and bigotry that man next you he's your brother that woman over there. She's your sister and that kid walking by hey who knows he may have the proportionate strength of a spider. We're all part of one big family the Uman family. You don't even need a cave to be a part of that family malate Stanley. They're speaking in a video he put out last year. Great to hear his voice again today. Many day really from the nanna Bill Harris studios at WG be h here in Boston. I'm Marco werman back with you tomorrow. He our public radio international.
Skimm Special, Part 2: COVID, Women, and Their Wallets
"In. Today's episode is brought to you by northwestern mutual. No matter what your situation is their financial advisers can guide you through it get matched at. Dot Com slash the skin. A Welcome to skim this. We're doing something a little bit different today. Last week, we started talking about how the coronavirus pandemic is affecting all personal finances but women's bank accounts are taking more of a hit than men's former US president John F. Kennedy once said that the Chinese word for crisis is made up of two characters, one representing danger and the other opportunity. So today we wanted to look at a difficult situation and see if we could find opportunity to. After all figuring out your finances is tricky at the best of times. That's why today we're bringing you the second of three special episodes where we're talking personal finance the pandemic. I really want to honestly run my own company at one day and I'm very entrepreneurial and that hasn't changed I think that the timing though in terms of everything has changed. We know that thoughts like how to progressive career or whether to go back to school might be crossing your mind as well. We'll be talking through these topics and more with Nicole, stokes a financial advisor with northwestern mutual. All that coming up. A. How vets imagine that thirty would look pretty different than what she's dealing with right now. And I was like. Crap I, don't have an income of a sudden hovel is one of millions of Americans laid off the pandemic. She'd grown up watching her parents work hard her mom graduated from Community College while have it was in pre k. plus my died was doing his masters and his doctorate while also holding two jobs so or three. Some points in time, and so he would work all the time just to make sure that we have the you know the lives that they provided for us. No surprise work has pretty much always been a part of Hamas identity to they had this need to have independent and financial stability at the age of twelve which sounds nuts. So when I was twelve, I started a babysitting business. Technically not legal work ray but and then when I was fourteen, I, got a job as a camp counselor and then also at the same time with doing Nanning and babysitting and throughout high school I always had. Two jobs, Hamas work ethic carried her through college, and then into jobs right away, and in March this year she had just started a brand new job and moved into a brand new apartment. It was more expensive than any worship ever rented before but she was excited except three months into the pandemic Hamas new job became one of many that disappeared as the US economy slid into a recession by June, haver found herself three months into a lease and without a stable income. Oh Man. It was surreal I. Felt like it was like an out of body experience. First of all I've never I've never lost a job before never been leadoff. Luckily, she had a network, she could count on to support her I had been seeing some of my best friends get laid off actually earlier today I had three of my closest friends in three completely different industries they were laid off in May, and I had been there for them and you know unfortunately, I lost my job at the end of June. Seeing her friends go through layoffs meant Hubba felt more prepared when she lost her own job but like anyone who's lost a job before Tell you can still feel really difficult to keep going you kind of have to go through grief in ways. I think they're moments in time losing your job. You have to go through the faces of grief I might wake up on a random Wednesday morning. And be like, wow, this sucks I don't have a job. But I'm not alone this is happening to everybody knowing that you're not alone knowing that. So many other people are going through this. Kind of gives you a level of comfort what I really needed was to breathe and take a step back for a couple of weeks to like let things settle. Let the dust settle. Like a lot of other skimmers of is ambitious, she's been work shopping her resume with former colleagues, bouncing cover letters for friends and attending virtual networking events like I can't even tell you. It's been fantastic networking the people that I've met all over the world. Actually I'm due to speak with someone in Dubai. So that has been really awesome and. I'm not really sure if this would have happened or you would've been forced into kind of learning these new methods without the pandemic. Maybe have thought there really were some opportunities she could pursue and maybe she could get proactive now about making changes to keep her goals for the future on track one thing, there's really important to me as I didn't want to just take any job I didn't want to jump into a job because I was unemployed. Totta what's on your mind I? Think I have a lot of questions around entrepreneurship in general and being like a sole proprietor in like starting my own business if you're thinking about entrepreneurship in particular. Starting to business when you don't have a job in the middle of a pandemic during during an economic crisis. Like questions, right of like timing access to money where should you be looking to really want to be taking on a loan What can you be doing bootstrapped? These are hard questions to answer. So this is where return to someone who knows better than we do now not some distant family member or a friend of a friend of a friend who happens to be an accountant somebody who helps people with these questions every day that's coming up after the break. We're all feeling a financial squeeze these days, and we're all wondering what's my next step? Good news northwestern mutual financial advisers can show you. They'll actually listen to what's important to you answer your questions in a non jargon anyway and work with you to make a financial plan. So you can get to where you want to be today and tomorrow don't wait get matched with an adviser at northwestern mutual dot com slash the skin today. Nicole. Stoke. Says progress toward your goals is always possible. Nicole is a financial advisor with northwestern mutual. She was listening patiently on video chat while we were talking. To. The Awkward Zillow's. You have a history of like working your tail off woman holy cow. Nicole did anything stand out for you about Hamas story that she g just shared with us? What I'm hearing is again, what I'm hearing from a lot of my clients, the fear of uncertainty like how long is this going to go on? Did I do the correct planning to set myself up for something like this? What should do next? I think there's always ways to improve budgeting. Where do you start? They're revisiting your budget just to see. Are there things that you could trim away from the budget that are just not necessary I always like to tie like money and financial into your value what brings you joy partisans, writing lists down to spend money, and then literally going line by line. Like how do they feel after I spent that dollar what personal value emotional by you did it brings me and if it didn't bring any value whatsoever and you're like Gosh I, wish I hadn't spent that money there highlight in big red bold and that's items I get cut I have a few questions from Skim listeners that might be somewhat similar to have a situation. So one is that Hamas had. She's still trying to save money each month even though you know the paycheck isn't exactly stable right now. So Nicole does it even matter if you can only put aside ten dollars or one dollars a month in terms of savings And good for you woman for just attempting to do that because even the act of saving something small while it may not feel meaningful right here. Now, there's tons of examples that show by putting aside money like over time hunting savings makes a big difference too. So yes, any amount matters it truly does and then hop also told us that she's considering starting her own business to Nicole. Is this something that you're hearing a lot from other people who are dealing with their financial situation during this pandemic? How would you advise someone to plan for being entrepreneurial especially in a business environment that we're dealing with right now? I M hearing a lot more of this maybe because again, the employment opportunities are less right now but also because I think it's given a lot of people time to reflect about what they truly enjoy doing and what they're good at and they're like They're sweet spot in hey, could I should just be doing that for myself And so couple things I really encourage you to look at before they set the launch into their own businesses. Do you have enough cash on hand to sustain starting a business but also I look at things like. Are you strategic like? Is there a need for what you think you're going to do right now is the right time like, is this the right time to launch a business given the environment? Could you actually find clients virtually 'cause if you can't maybe you should wait and hold off on that business plan to so maybe starting a business isn't exactly the right move right now. But what about going back to school? Good that'd be a way to pivot your career when we look at. Key on either student at or going back to school I. Always look at this is more like an investment in yourself. It's really hard for a financial adviser truly to take on more debt when you're not employed So one would either bring you more value to your life or a faction or two with the income that you earned from this crear justify the mount that you're spending. So I would look into things like could you work while you're going to school? There is tons of. Aid Resources there ta or teacher responsibilities you could take on that would allow you to pay for school or they actually pay for your classes. Grants private scholarships. I would say look into all those resources first before taking on debt and or grow a little bit more slowly with the actual school so that you can work your way through it and pay for it out of pocket. Alright. So whether or not you make big investments into things like more education right now probably depends on future payoff finally have is there anything else you wanted to ask Nicole or just anything on your mind? The biggest piece of advice for me with like the idea of just sparking joy like I love that idea I'm I'm definitely taking that. Just thinking through things like that. It's it's always really helpful for someone to kind of remind you about things like that. So that has been really helpful unappreciated. Have I'm really excited about you evaluating some of the things that are really important to you. And taking some actions to get you one step closer to those goals. Thank you Nicole. It was such a pleasure to talk with you. This was awesome. I Have A. A quick reminder, all the financial challenges that we're facing right now or a little bit different. Even if the root causes look similar, make sure you get financial advice that's tailored to your specific situation before you make any big decisions. We have one more episode like this next week, we'll be talking to Nicole and another skimmer about running a business providing for a family and still planning for the future during a crisis. And looking at pretty much whatever I can do virtual and it would give me the ability to be mobile. This has been a special episode of skin this brought to you by northwestern mutual. For more on how to manage your money during cove in. No matter your situation head to the skin dot com slash money. You can also get in touch with northwestern mutual financial advisers and northwestern mutual. Dot. com.