20 Episode results for "H Jones"

'Valentine's Views' podcast: Training camp changing for fans

Big Blue View

26:29 min | 1 year ago

'Valentine's Views' podcast: Training camp changing for fans

"Hello, giants anti welcome to fission of the Valentine's views podcast, here on big blue view radio. I'm your host at Valentine of big blue view. Today's topic as we roll through the off season and wait for your New York Giants to open training camp, late in July is going to be the dwindling public access to training camps going to be joined momentarily by Lindsay Jones of the athletes who wrote about that topic recently for that fine subscription only publication, which, by the way, I do encourage you to, to get a subscription to the athletes. It's it's worth the investment, not, not necessarily, not simply for giants coverage. But if you're a sports fan, and you like reading things that aren't simply related to game, results and box scores. The ethnic is a place where you can read that kind of material. Anyway, back to discussing training camp asked on Sunday at big blue view for readers to send stories and photos from past training camps that they had visited in places like Albany, pace university back in the really older days. Fairfield university got some really interesting stories and photos in response posted those on Tuesday morning at big blue view. If you haven't had a chance to, to look at those, please. Do. So it's a really nice sort of stroll down memory lane, and really points out the differences in what the NFL used to be. And what training camp used to be versus what it is now. So I think it's a post, you'll enjoy it's one that I really enjoyed I liked going through some of the stories from people and it really was a stark reminder for me of how different things are today. All right with that said. Giants fans, let me bring in Lindsay Jones of the athletes, and we'll talk a little bit more about this topic. Hey, I'm Spencer hall. I'm Holly Anderson. I'm Ryan nanny. I'm Jason Kirk. And we're the host of the shutdown full cast your avengers of college football podcast. It says in the script onto riff on what that means and basically what I mean is all spoiled. Every tuesday. We talk about everything from cooking disasters to pro wrestling, too unfashionable pants Warren, middle school. We also do talk about college football every now and then, like mascot fights announcers, fleeing the early and unfashionable pants that coaches where now if you want to take college football, exactly as seriously as it should be taken subscribe for free on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast app. Hi, I'm Avery truffle men and I'm hosting curbs new podcast. Nice. Try it stories about how people have tried to design a better world. And what happens when those designs don't go according to plan season. One is called utopian. And it's about the perpetual search for the perfect place. It includes cannibalism fascist architecture. Poly-amorous hermetically, sealed domes and Courtney Kardashians dining room chairs, but not necessarily in that order, new episodes of nice, try come out every Thursday. Subscribe for free on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast app. Okay, giant spans on joined now by Lindsay Jones of the athletic to talk about the dwindling training camp access for the public. Lindsey. Thank you very much for, for joining me today. And no problem. Thanks happened. The ad Lindsey before we get started before we dive into it just for folks who aren't really familiar with your work one or two. You give give folks the quick synopsis of, of what you do for the athletes, and your background. Yeah, for sure. So yes, I like you mentioned I worked for the F lettuce on our national and fell desk, which means that kind of cover the league at large league issues trends, features news, all sorts of stuff, but I'm not tied to any one particular team. I'm based in Denver. I've covered the NFL since two thousand eight about a half of that time spent covering the Denver Broncos for the death. Post. And then I was at USA today for about six years before I left for the ethic last summer. So in my role at USA today, traveled, a lot, I was kind of a national NFL reporter but being based in Denver. I've spent a lot of my time out west and midwest. You know, my training camp tours that I've done in recent years. I've done a lot of California Ohio Indianapolis that kind of that part of the country. The south at done all of the Florida teams a bunch. So yes, I've kind of been covering the NFL along time and it's kind of been a fun new adventure at the flag. Trying to cover it in, in a different way than I was used to doing before. All right. So let's get into this topic, let's get into talking about NFL training camps. And I wanted to ask you, do you know, offhand, or at least roughly what the split is these days between teams that stay in their own facilities or teams. Adl travel, it's the majority now that are have moved back to their home Pacific the number of teams that that go away for camp is dwindling in several of the teams that still go away. The Cowboys the chiefs, for example. They have expiring contracts with those places the chiefs, go to Oxnard California, which is kind of, at the very northern end of what you could kind of consider the L A metro area. Penn Amir Ventura in the chiefs. Go to Saint Joseph, Missouri, where which is about an hour issue, north. Of Kansas City. The expectation is they won't have those agreements that much longer and they'll be going back to their home facilities. I believe that the Panthers still go to Spartanburg that the Steelers obviously, go to go to Latrobe the bills go to go to college Rochester. So there are a number of teams that still do it, but the vast majority have moved back to their home facilities for a lot of reasons financially is a big part of it that it's a lot cheaper, obviously to stay at home. And then they, they kind of have the comforts and the luxuries at home. So even though they might be they might be at their home facility. They'll still put the guys up in hotels, the kind of this, you know, quote unquote camp feeling but they're still trade, you know, in their in their home, locker room, they have their trading room. They have their training table where they have their cafeteria in their chefs and all of the catered stuff that they need to have their, you know, they have their super state of the art weight rooms and the, the merge. Massage tables. And there, they have all of the things that they wanna have at home. That's so hard to have when you go on the road. So that's kind of why it's happened. And I and I get it from from football standpoint. I certainly get it. I don't know if it's necessarily the best thing for fans, which is kind of what I wrote about last week, guessing, what we're gonna talk about here today. It is basically in lake you. I get it, you know, I think we were talking before we started. We're you know, I'm a little bit older than you are. And, and it just feels like it feels like you know, it's certainly understandable. But it feels like you know, part of an era, maybe the charm of what used to be the NFL or the charm of the beginning of the season. You know is is going away as these teams, you know, stay home more and more. I know the giants, for example, you know, they still have I think this year they've scheduled ten free public practices, but these facilities aren't built to be fan friendly, so it's not it's not the charm of going to a college or or going some place like it used to be where guys would stay for a couple of weeks. Yeah, it definitely has changed, and, you know, and it's really it's interesting. You look around the, you know, the entire NFL landscape. And every team does it a little bit differently in there. Some places that are still very, very fan friendly a team. The Baltimore Ravens are an example of this where they, they train at home at their home facility, but they in recent years, they've actually gone out and bought up land adjacent to the facility to build extra practice fields for parking for fans to have area specifically for training camp to make fan friendly. The Minnesota Vikings. They are now back at home that used to train up at Saint Olaf college that used to be. Very recently, believe it was even last year was the first year that they moved back down to Eden prairie where they opened this gorgeous new training facility where they actually have kind of small stadium onsite, but they have made a pretty fan friendly where there's tons of seating. It's kind of Bleacher style seating, but they also basically kinda make like a mini state fair. You know, they bring in rides and food trucks. And, you know, if you've ever been to Minnesota state fair, I've never actually been, but it's looks phenomenal. I mean at the food and games and stuff. So they've really catered it now towards families. So there's some places in here in Denver wireless. They have nineteen open practices this year, which is pretty incredible. They did a lot of renovations, and new construction over, probably the last five seven years to make it more fan friendly. They've expanded the seating for training camp, and they also do the bringing food trucks, and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, there's some places that are still doing it really well. And then there's some places that are, you know, keep keep it down more and more and more and more where in the eagles are. The very extreme example of that, where you know now that they're back at their training facility in Philadelphia. It's, it's, it's, it's a pretty small facility. There's no extra seating area around their field at the novacare complex. And now they only have one practice that fans can attend and they're charging for it. And, yes, the money is going to charity, which that certainly commendable it's going to autism. An autism charity that is something that's very, very important to the Laurie family. But it's making it extremely exclusive. When you go to a practice at stadium like you're going into center. Sorry, the link CenturyLink field Seattle if you're going into Lincoln, financial field, it just it's not intimate. You don't get that kind of special training camp feeling that you get, when you're, you know, when you're standing out on the side of the practice fields rocking the giants practice. You're sitting in this big grassy berm in Denver, watching the Broncos or kind of lined up against a fence in Oxnard watching the watching the Cowboys. It just it's. Completely different feeling and it's really too bad. That eagles, who are, you know, have one of the most rabid fan, bases in the NFL haven't found a better way to make their camp a little bit more accessible to people who couldn't regularly go attend for their games. Well, I have to say this from a site that covers the giants, you're getting no sympathy for eagles fan. The airheads that's not happening. So let me ask you this Lindsey, I kind of trace this to the lack of full two days to the new CBA. I mean, do you is that more or less when you think this as a trend, you know really, really came about? I mean I certainly understand it. But I think that's really the to me the main Genesis of it. Yeah, that's actually really interesting. I've been talking to my editors in one of our other kind of national and a fall reporters about this little bit of something to kind of report out a little bit further. But if you look back to win the last or the currency via that was two thousand eleven and that was all happening the negotiations were happening during training camp time. And it was really inflexible. We didn't know when when camp was going to start if camp was going to happen off season was a mess. So, you know, I think that was kind of a turning point in just logistically bigger. Being out what training camps are gonna look like. And now is a really big a substantial change in what the function of training, what training camp actually looks like you know, for years and years and years training camp had two full practices a day. I mean, it was four or five hours of on field, you know, in pads full-contact kind of practices and, you know, now there's a lot of like walk, throughs. And they don't have as much full-contact time and the time that they're actually able to do kind of nine on seven gels or the goal line. You know, the really the stuff that the fans really kind of the real football stuff that has dwindled a lot. So I think teams don't want to open up to walk throughs, those sorts of things they, you know, and then I think the other part of it is that teams are just getting more and more kind of like insular and don't want to be transparent about things and just are very wanting to keep everything so in house, and maybe give access to your own broadcast to your own broad. Caster specifically to your VIP season ticket holder or sponsored groups that you feel like you can kind of contain a little bit better where, you know about that time, two thousand eleven in the new CBS like I said, the, the logistics trying to organize camp when you didn't know when exactly the season was going to be happening because players were locked out. I think that was part of it the change in actual structure of camp. And then that was about the time that, like social media was really taking off. And I just remember having battles from the reporter side, having battles with PR staff from not just the Broncos when I was covering the Broncos. But around the league these questions of well, there's five thousand fans sitting here, and you're telling me that I can't refuse. That I can't take a picture. We've been I didn't mean. But you know, we've I've been I've been going to giants camp since two thousand and seven and we get the same thing, you know, hey, there's, there's two thousand people out there. Putting these pictures on social media, and you're telling us we can't take a picture from the sideline. Right. And they would argue back and say, well, they don't have, you know, Joe schmo, who's sitting there from really Colorado. What he doesn't have the reach that I have. And that's fair. You know, you know, how many ever tens of thousands, people would follow my Twitter as opposed to like, you know, his family, that's following his fifteen. But still if something crazy happens stuff goes viral. So it's been this very kind of give and take this evolving nature of, like what's allowed. What's not allowed. I mean, I remember cash now I'm trying to think which specific player was it was something happened with the patriots. And somebody one of their marquee players kinda got hurt. And but the patriot supporters kind of all pinned up kind of often corner. They didn't have a good angle on it. And there was some dude who was like sitting in the end. You know, the bleachers the hind the end zone and had this perfect video took off and I can see why t some teams would get scared of having that sort of stuff out there, but look, there's, there's so few secrets in the NFL this time during training camp. They're not doing a tennis scheme stuff. You know, you can do your walk your installs and stuff during those closed walk-throughs, I still think it's better to open it up to everybody, but it is it is something that the teams are concerned about in terms of how much information is getting out there. It's kind of an aside, but, you know, having having been to a number of giants training camps. There is. Is sort of a state secret field to to being around the NFL. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's they get a little worried that, you know, the reporters, you know, the, the credential journals are saying, you know, we might report something on, we're not supposed to. But, you know if fan is like, oh, this, oh, Philip Daniel Jones. Six extra first team reps today. That's going to be out there. You know, like, I, I don't know what this whole state secret kind of stuff, but because most of the people there that are watching it, you really care about the team you want. What's best and you're really excited about what's happening. And yeah, I think that I think teams are worrying about like their trick plays getting out there because they have ten open practices. That's really kind of losing the big picture of what can be gained by letting their fans have access to camp. Let's talk about Phoenix's. You know, you've been two camps with a number for a number of different teams just quickly, you have a couple of, of favorite, maybe sort of Finn memories things that you've seen in terms of interactions as you've been going around the league. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of places that still do a really good job. One of my favorite stops is always Brown's camp. And they, they practice at their home facility in Berea. Hieaux but they do they just do a really good job of kind of making fans owns the fans have really, like good seating, and, you know, and maybe it's starting to change a little bit as the Browns their fortunes are changing a little bit. But what's so fun about going to Brown's camp? Is that for most of the year football is very miserable? In Cleveland, you know, it's, but this is just this most die hard. They just they just love the Browns so much. And when you're there in August, they can still have this glimmer of we might be good. You know, and they do a really good job of kind of clinging onto some of that optimism, and they do a lot of good stuff, like a lot of really good outreach for kids. And this kind of stuff and then they have my favorite promotion anywhere around the league during training camp. And that they have a partnership with one of the Hugh, some, the humane societies locally, you know, that their, their mascot is the big swagger the big kind of massive dogs, so there, the dog pound this whole thing. So they actually have adoptable puppies and dogs everyday at training camp and they keep a tally and hundreds. Of dogs have been adopted rescue dogs through the Browns training camp. So, so I love that Oxnard is a really cool experience where the Cowboys train, I've been there a number of times been there just for Brown for raiders. Excuse had been there just for Cowboys camp. But I've also been there when they've had joint practices where the raiders have come down, and that's really fun. Because you get Kennedy's really die hard raiders fans. A lot of whom still live in the Los Angeles area who come up you've got Cowboys fans from all over and they're really close. I mean I was there a couple years ago when during a joint practice between the Cowboys and raiders win a fight broke out on the field like these skirmishes at these discriminates happen during these joint practices all the time where you're just so excited to finally hit somebody who's not your teammate, and there was a fan standing right on the other side of a chain link fence. I mean a good three to four feet maybe away from the sideline in the squirmishes like. Kind of pushed sway out from the field onto the sidelines and basically up against the fence. And there was a fan there waiting. He was a raiders fan. I might be getting strong now. But, like they bring all these, you know, stuff that you wanna get signed because the player the players go around after right after practice in science revenues waiting against the fence and a guy brought a helmet to get signed. And there's a player cornerback from the raiders got his helmet ripped off and the fan or getting I think it was a Cowboys player ripped off the raiders fan holding the helmet to get signed swung. His helmet into the square mesh and it was like, oh my God like. This is insane ever really was crazy. I mean, this might not be the best story for advocating for fan access because fan got in the middle of this training camp fight, but it was just like it was it was really cool. I mean it was crazy. And you know, tempers kind of settled down. Nobody got injured. But it's the Cowboys camp is really cool. You know, obviously the I haven't actually been there to see it in person, and I would love to do it sometime but the Packers do a really good job of involving children. You know, they do the bikes like the, the kids from the Green Bay air kind of bring their bikes out and then the players get to ride them in to Cam. I just love any of these times where they just really make it acceptable to the kids, because this is we talk so much about kind of like the future of the NFL, and how the NFL's outreach, and they, they wanna go overseas and go to London and, you know, all this kind of stuff, but they really need to be consistently reaching out to young fans and these are the next Jenner. Ration- NFL fans and this is such an important time that they can be kind of capturing these, these kids in these teenagers, and making the players relatable and making them more than just kind of fantasy football stat lines. You know, the guys that you draft on your apple on your phone. And so I love I love it when they do kind of the. Autograph sessions that are just for kids, or when they bring in, you know, kids from boys and Girls Club and all of those kind of things. So I think those are the teams that do best when they really really make family and kid-friendly. Let's hope that NFL teams continued to try to do that. Lindsey before I let you go. I have one sort of bone to pick with you a little bit. Okay. You know, mailbag recently you actually said that you think the jets will win a Super Bowl before the giants. I saw that in not gonna let you off the hook without without explaining yourself. Well, you know, I think I just have questions about what the long term plan is for the giants. What their vision is here. I think it's going to become a little bit more clear when we figure out if Daniel Jones is, is the guy and has got to be the guy for a long time. You know, I just this offseason has been so confusing from the outside, when you look at what the giants have done in terms of, you know, you wanna ship off some veterans, you know, you, you trade off some big salaries trade off some good, you know, from Livia Vernon to obviously Beckham, but then you sign golden Tate. And it's like what are you are you rebuilding? Are you do you think you can win with the rest or you have now it's just been kind of confusing. So you know, I think with the jets I don't think that they're very good team right now. I think they're still you're a couple years away from even contending for a wildcard spot. But I think with the jets, at least, you know, for sure, okay? This is the quarterback is gonna be a now. They know I think I think they made some pretty good. Hi pretty good higher for, which Douglas's, our new GM. So it's not to say that I think the jets are going to win a Super Bowl anytime soon. I think it's just a kind of a statement about the current snapshot of some giants or overall organizational dysfunction. Right. But it'd be the way to the matting we certainly we certainly get that we understand it. There's a lot of a lot of giants fans that would agree with you. But, but having having come across that Lindsey, I couldn't let you go without without without making plant. All right. I hope they hope they know Jones, the right guy. I mean, after all the crap that's said about him leading up to the draft and incense. I'd I'd love to see him succeed. I mean, I think that would be a tremendous story. So guys say they turn around quickly. There you go. I would like to actually cover some good football for a change for sure. You guys deserve it. So before let you go, why don't you go ahead until people where they can find you on Twitter. Make the make this subscribe to the athlete pitch. If you wanna do that seems like every time I have from the F, let it gone get. I get the subscribe pitch so, so great ahead. Yeah. I mean, yes, described to be flooded. That's where all of my, my writing do kind of a lot of feature reporting. I'll be doing a lot of stuff during training camp obviously. But, you know, mailbags live chats and all that kind of stuff. And Dan, who covers the giants is he's really, really good. So hopefully you guys are already falling him but you can follow me on Twitter. It's violence age Jones, which is basically just my byline. It's Lindsey with a so yeah. Bide Lindsey h Jones and yet hopefully we'll have good subscriber deals, headed a training camp as well. Which I'm pretty sure that will happen where you can get, you know, it's basically, it's like three bucks a month, so no ads podcast. You get all that. Good stuff. So, yes, a rita's follow us. And hopefully yeah, I mean most of my training camp tours that I've done in the past have all been kind of mid west and west or south, and I am planning east coast trip. So, hopefully I will make it out to East Rutherford during training camp. It's you guys. Is lindsay. Thank you very much for, for spending a little bit of time with me today. Thanks for having me, take care. All right. Thanks to Lynn Lindsay Jones, for spending some time with us as always giants fans, we ask you to please subscribe to big blue view, radio and all of your favorite podcast applications. I think all of the giants fans who sent their stories and photos to the big blue view at g mail dot com in box all of those that were used in the training camp. Memories post that we did. All right. Thank you very much for listening. And we'll talk to you again soon. Bye bye.

giants NFL Lindsey h Jones football Cowboys Lindsay Jones Denver apple Twitter Cowboys camp raiders jets New York Giants Daniel Jones eagles Oxnard Fairfield university
Jerry, Ryan and Sam McGee Deliver Laughs, Tears and More in Sidelines & Bloodlines: A Father, His Sons and Our Life in College Football

Charlotte Readers Podcast

1:19:24 hr | Last month

Jerry, Ryan and Sam McGee Deliver Laughs, Tears and More in Sidelines & Bloodlines: A Father, His Sons and Our Life in College Football

"Support for charlotte readers. Podcast is provided by park road. Books the oldest and only independent bookstore in charlotte and by charlotte mecklenburg library a connector of readers leaders and learners with twenty locations and a twenty four hour online presence. Support is also provided by members like you and for that we offer our gratitude along with some awesome number only content. You can find out more about these member benefits. It's charlotte readers. Podcasts dot com. Welcome to charlotte readers podcast authors. Give voice to the written words. This is the show remained local and regional authors and sometimes even farther afield with the magic of remote podcasting and we hear them read their work. We are a proud member of the queen. City podcast network a collection of charlotte podcast produced in and centering around the queen city and also a proud number of authors only air global radio network broadcasting radio shows podcasts about offers to a worldwide audience homeland. Dissuade the producer and host of this podcast. I'm recovering trial lawyer. I'm the author of a trilogy of books. Were lawyers save christmas kind of a cross between my cousin. Vinny and miracle on thirty fourth street. And i write stories and i love books and love dogs and love beaches mountains and flos fishing sports in reading and more and i'm excited about today's episode. So let's get two days up soon. This jerry mcgee ryan mcgee and sandy co-authors of satellites and bloodlines. Father his son in our life in college football reappears ron mcgee begin attorney sandy. Football is a lifelong passion phone from going up Jerry mckie strike for decades is one of the most highly decorated officials in college football history. Silence of loans rival team up with their father. Jerry show lessons learned between the white lines. Featuring a cast of characters runs from no-name small college athletes and coaches to one name legend such as hopes paternity boat of gays provider rare and often larry's clips inside sound of college officials detailing her love for the game commences accomplished professionals from all walks alive to voluntarily dir sisley insults public criticism and express goal of doing one's job on a very public stage in a way that will hopefully not draw any attention l. That job is from stories. Brawling hassle referees offer small talk george lucas fighter rosebowl heart tugging story. Young signs in the stands will saturday as a stream of profanity. Lateness salts director father drowns out the marching bands. Some delivers last tears. The deeper understanding of the sport we go football. We start the show. Jeremy rating from section early in the book about. Wha in how they do it they do it because they love it. I've learned two things about officials over the years. The first isn't they orleanians mistakes. It's like a player. Turns the ball over or coach calls wrong. Play at the wrong time. The second is truly officiate. For the love of the game they have to especially now youth in high school. Officials have to deal with crazy parents and they're making no money. Most college official aren't making much money. Either they all have full-time jobs. These days their names are out there on social media not once had an officials say they are doing it for the fame or the money. There's not much money and the best you can hope for. Is they do it because they love it. Someone else who loved it. I introduced them to to do this job. You have to learn detachment every game. You work is the most important game. You ever worked. Whether it's michigan at notre dame a rockingham at hamlet. When i first started working high school games in eastern north carolina at least the third of the teams officiated were being coached by guys. I just going to college with but holding is still holding. No matter who who the people involved are so. I learned very quickly to check that at the door relationships teams. You might have read for us a kid. They must names. You can't be objective if you don't and two thousand and two. I worked a houston. Bill between southern miss. An oklahoma state had an incredible wide receiver. A loud watch that kid play early in the game. You had a sixty yard catch but we call it back. Because i got him offensive pass interference. I wasn't alone. Virgil valez longtime great official. Had it to less. Miles was oklahoma state's coach at the and he said word all the way across the field to me. Tell the phil judge this rashad woods. He's a first team. All american and i sent word back to miles. You tell coach that today's eighty two. Hey listeners before we dive into the interview. I'd like to thank you for taking some your valuable time to listen to this episode today. We really appreciate it. I'd also like to let you know about a couple of benefits available will to our listeners. Including what you can find website. Show notes that this episode with images links and information about the authors are available at charlotte readers. Podcasts dot com. Also if you'd like to support your favourite local independent bookstore and get audio books at the same time you can join libro dot. Fm it's lobby ara dot fm and if you use the promo code charlotte reader as all one word may not be from charlotte but you can still be charlotte reader to get this benefit. When you use that promo code you're gonna get To looks for the price of one when you join it Rose fourteen ninety. Nine monthly membership. Will this great way to support your local independent bookstore and get great audio books At the same time. Oh and speaking of audiobooks and now christmas around the corner. I'd like to let you know that my free books the the christmas courtroom trilogy or now on audio books and you can find all three wherever you like to get your audio books and also that libro dot fm. I'm really excited about the fact that i connected Lift an actor in la who is the narrator for this series. His name is bill h jones. He's best known for his role as rod remington from fox. Tv's glee but he's also appeared in a number other shows days of our lives. The king of queens the drew carey show and much much more really funny guy. He does justice to the series. This across between my cousin. Vinny miracle thirty four straight. If you like to read better than you like to listen to audio books you can now get the first book Free as an e book. It's permanent free on all major online platforms including amazon's kindle and we also send you a free copy of that I book if you sign up for the charlotte podcast newsletter. What you can do with the website. We don't Spam you if you do that. That takes too much time. We do provide a biweekly newsletter with the information better authors readings with video links and other information at the craft business riding and what our authors ripped through so. It's great way to keep up with what's going on the show and engage with our author community but enough about books audiobooks and newsletters. It's time to get to this very interesting episode about a family that loved football. You're gonna make Dr jerry mcgee. He's a star. The book sidelines and blood is a father. His sons in our life in college football and he is the father to co-authors ryan sambergen jira fish cows low for many years and was selected. Do so in a number of high profile games remember eight halls of fame including the north carolina sports hall of fame. We're not calling games on the gridiron. Jerry served a senior level or four private colleges and universities in the carolinas twenty. Three years is present wing university. He served two terms in the president's council chair to football issues. Committees represented college football on the board of directors of the national sports official organization for six years. Ron mcgee is espn senior writer in york times bestseller our with gac who offering dale earnhardt junior racing to the finish in two thousand eighteen. You start with. Espn staff of the show rpm two night during which time he began contributing to espn the magazine and espn dot com. Just totally nascar fox. Sports net three seasons and for five years served as editor in chief. It nascar media group for turning to espn. Full-time rod is a five-time sports. Emmy winner six time national mortar. Sports press association of the year and pen the script for the documentary film. Dale near about. Paul newman covered all forms of motorsports in college sports as well as major league baseball. Nfl and everything from space jumping to snowmobile racing. He co host. Marty mcgee on espn radio and sec. Network with marty smith. Sam mcgee is an author trial lawyer and fishermen and the young brother to ride He met his wife marcy while he's an integrator. Wake forest university mirror meknes. After graduating you'll law school and later mr political ten gerry spence. His trial lawyers college salmon. Marcy the proud parents of two children both him speak mandarin. Love sports travel. There's is a household of four people completely adore one another spend most of their limited time supporting each other's pursuits. Spite sam being busy trial. Swim meets and baseball tournaments. His family does allow them to write and fish to an addition to co authoring sidelines. Some blood loss father and brother his debut novel carlos creek is forthcoming from fire ship. Press in two thousand and twenty one. It's a book inspired by families. True civil war store jerem gay walking like you arrive you welcome. Hey how you doing welcome. Glad to be here. Yes so congratulations. Author of the book before we dive into the store to this book Let's talk about the journey putting this together When did you side As the three geese to write this book into this process will say to say that we. We began writing the book Twenty years ago. When i started speaking at the sportsman's clubs a different Rotary clubs around north and south carolina. When i finished speaking someone would say gosh. You need to write a book about this football stores and we just kind of laughed and took a note here and there whatever we kept saying. We're going to write the book. But but obviously i had a pretty demanding job and Ron have demanding jobs. It was really hard to find the time and we finally committed to one another to do it and Sort of more time together and looking at old films and here we have a book. So ryan you kinda took the lead in this you use your narrator voice in the book and then i we trump. The boxes in were salmon. Jour's voice come together from your perspective right. This spoke ron obvious what dad said. I mean it's it's You can't do my job. And i learned in writing this book that that there's a huge part of officiating at work this way. In the sam's job this is just what we do every day. And for sam salmon our kids most of the conversation that we have with our friends when it came to sports which is most of the conversations you have when you're a young boy is Senator dad had done on saturday or where we had been on saturday with that. And so we had all these stories stockpiled. And i was real fortunate that i was able to write a book couple of years ago with heart junior and a book edge came to me and she said you got a little bit of momentum right now i think we could whatever you wanna do. If there's a project you've always wanted to work on. This might be the time to do it. And i was like. I got the one and And called dead. Sam's i think i think we've been telling about it. We should write a book. Well i think we can actually write a book and so we were very fortunate that we were given the opportunity and and I think it turned out. It turned out is great as i was hoping that it was going to cry and picked it up and read it very quickly i was. I don't know if we were facebook Whatever saying we got to get this next question. You sam You get. Your father was accounts president ryan. He's espn writer commentator. You're a lawyer. You're in the trenches court. So headed a father in two sons over successful different professions figuring out how to do anything together much less. Well you know you mentioned dad's one that refereed four hundred football games at ryan's sports so you could have asked me. What's the law. You're doing here well. One of the best things about this land is is that it. We all live within three or four miles of each other But ron are busy running around and and have teenage children and have all their activities disorder forced us to get together and do this and it's real easy for me to say i don't have time for this. I don't have time for that. Or or for ryan to say. Hey i'm covering this game this race. Got this article right But this of this kind of made us get together and a lot of times. It was over launcher eating pizza. Watching game films ron's basement but it really made us get together and do what we really enjoyed. Do which is around and talk about these about the story of I'm glad we did the book. So that the books out there but for no other reason it really made us get together. Reminisce of some stories to their listeners Sometimes i listened to hear about how riders work in early come together in this really probably a division responsibility in iran. You said that you wrote a book. The delaware our junior giradi net yourself researching yourself. This is a book that requires more Together and talk about the division responsibility in how you actually called us off. Well i kinda basically. It was sitting down with sam like you said at lunch or sitting down data at lunch and i thought i had lantis a pretty good view of what all the best stories were but the most pleasant surprise in whole process was the very first launch. I how would sam a over by park road shopping center. He told me five stories. I had never heard inside. I thought i knew all the stories. That's just you know egocentric sportswriter guy thaw. I remember them. All i was there and within five minutes. Sama toby to three stories in mad at dad. 'cause book came out a while ago and still a radio interview here. He tells another store. And i'm like am probably should have been in the book so it's added that i i. I really believed that. I knew more than i knew. And i think that was the best part as far as the riding responsible and it just was a matter of you know. I kinda knew what the time line was and dad had talked about. I knew the points that he wanted to make about officiating but also knew what the highlight stories were for for sam myself and so it just was a matter of putting a time line together in a way. And and then we had all these amazing crossover stories with the likes of bobby bowden and mike leach. And ray ray lewis in these guys in trying to figure out way to we those and we just kind of gave them their own sections. We use those as the chapter breaks which i was a good way to not have to shoehorn those stories in in between our story. Let us have the chapters. And then we'll let you know the the celebrities. Let them have their own deals in between so once these guys kind of agreed to the format. It just was a matter of me. Making sure that i had all of the best stories from them and dropping that into account the outline that we put together as as a very readable book and personal reflections in it to get good reception. His inscription right option came on larry stories. About the strange place. Referees powder sporting world found myself Into a tail family fathers and sons. Now we never forget the way dot com that sort of property question for me star with jerry. You got this family of you and your children the in college football talk for just a moment jerry. About what that meant to you to have your son's in your life while you're going through this experience as a college official We've always done things as a family you know. We've made decisions as a family. We traveled as a family. And and it's been maybe a little closer than than some families. But i had a job Our primarily a fundraiser for universities. Before i became president of course after your president. You still still fundraiser. But i saw. I had to travel lot and a lot of times i'd leave on on tuesday. Get home on thursday and pacman football bag and leave. Wait wait on friday. And get home saturday night or sunday morning. So if we're going to have family time you know. I had to somehow figure out a way to involve them with me and so occasionally the limit on tobacco road you know how to game at carolina duke or wake forest even virginia. The family could go. But so many times i was going to florida. State was going to clemson house going to new jersey. Some and they couldn't go. But but i'll try to run with me occasionally but just the two of us not take slam occasionally just the two of us encounter involved in what we're doing. Let them set in on the officials meeting and have dinner with the officials. And maybe have a chance to make the head coaches and and so kind of let them understand what. I was doing no saturdays when they weren't a rail so but was about as on to get them involved as much cut. And that's nice as saying you're the youngest of here. The two brothers show you accidental storing book by a ficials. Everyone take it off as a kid we kinda off-balance probably trump From your perspective as youngest and tag along with your dad. What made you to be a part of this experiences. Her father's mitt. Everything me you know when you're the youngest and Near a small kid like i. Was you a lot of times where you feel like you're having to fight your way in. Make sure you're getting the attention that you might walk and This it always made me feel like i was a part of it and you know like after game when the when the crew is in a hotel conference room eating pizza talking about this player that play or or you know whether it's to maybe there's some criticism but more often it's to say. Hey good job on this player you really had that Downfield play nailed. You know. I'm in the room you know and even get to contribute to that conversation as as a pretty young kid and that really made me feel part of it or if getting into the stadium early in a walk in the tarp the orange bowl or the rosebowl the day before the game at the orange bowl when they're trying to figure out how to run the buffalo across the field from colorado Or being a ball boy at scrimmages at nc state. When i was a kid it did it. Did a lot of things made me feel like i was part of the game but also made me feel like i was part of my dad's world world of adults out there and that's that was kinda my best glimpse behind the curtain when i was a young kid. And i think that was part of the thing. The referees hatemi dad traveled a ton. But you know he was there. He was coaching my baseball teams. He was involved in our lives. And i'm not sure. I realize how hard he was working to be present for us even when he had a job that made him traveling a hobby that made travel I got addicted to that hat. And i mean it. My teacher couldn't get me to take it all and literally fussing trying to get me to take it off for school picture and i'm absolutely you're refusing and other kids chime in some of our yell and take it off and smoke keeping and and as the hatch state oh my head Mom would have to fight me to get the hat off for me to take back. Your is continuing doubt. It was training to one day deal with the latest. Wade's of the world. Exactly so you are also very proud of your dad. And i think having read the book your colleagues. Espn you may. You may comment. Did you see that official do that. So we know there's a controversial so talk about that. A little bit being able to be present involve as you're pursuing this career in sports That's would sam's talking about about getting to the stadium early. That's addicting like once you get a taste of that like you know. I've never been drugs. But that's walking into that stadium and that feeling that you get in your spine you gotta get that hit again and a. Yeah i get that feeling again. And so i the first time that sound. I've one house hotline credential. Were i was thirteen. He was ten. i remember looking around distinctly and thinking. I got to figure out how to do this. All of these people here today on the sideline photographers and the washington. Post in the press box. They're getting paid to be here and their feeding them lunch. How do you. How do you get to do this for a living. He's are all grown adults in so awesome my whole life. I remember the second time. I had credentials Photography rentals was duke maryland. Game at duke and at halftime the photographers real. Like come on. Come with me and we walked up through. The grandstands went into the press box and they gave us a box with a barbecue sandwich and some fried chicken and a chocolate chip cookie a bag of potato chips and miss north carolina. Walt bought and said hey guys how are you today. And then mike while i. Hey guys what's going on. I was like and then we walk back down to watch second half. I was like i have to do this. And so my goal goal at that point was to figure out how to be able to do that for a living and and that was You knock on wood covid notwithstanding that's what i do. Yeah my colleagues they are. I think jealous of the perspective. I have on the game and osama both have owned the game. That other people don't but you taught the kids coaches or former players and they learned the game differently and so salmon. I learned the game different. But even this past january of twenty twenty back when everything was normal in the press box the superdome jumped up during the tv timeout with ficials arguing. And all my colleagues like okay. I got no no watch him. I said there s in the back. Judge is really mad. I said because the guy all the way across a field just threw a flag. That was nowhere near where he was. And i said look at them. They're having an argument. The white hat was was officiating. An argument between these guys. And they're all ok ryan whatever. It affected the crew. The next couple drives. That's that's the way. I watch football and You know sam tells a great story in a book about sitting on the top row of orange bowl and screaming because louisville had twelve men on the field on defense. sure enough. that was the flag. Does starting this guy. I mean one hundred miles fulfill this guy was like. Do you always count the players on defense. Sounds like yeah. don't you didn't everybody. That's kind of how we learned a game. I love how tag along the part of the experience. What are the reasons. Do this Same reading this book is when i was younger. A high school official. He comes from a lot of officials fishing without officials. Who went on to the nfl. He was selected Of the white house travel was probably fourteen or so. I have my little eight millimeter at passes and now he gave it up. Come watch me play football because you can figure out friday night watchman. Fridays to that whole experience. I mean i can relate directly to awesome some of the stories that they told so and also We're gonna put this out in december two thought. Really enjoy this of your weather today. So report out too close adversary his death cup years ago. Just for be about this topic knowing how important west ham. Though i am a france he made as official. I guess jerry. That is one of the things that comes out of this. You know some people have mission buddy. Some people have buddies they watch or are they play cards with you. Had a group of france that you wet and officiated football games with needed hold on doing it In hospital you sometimes gotta run out four. That's exactly right and literally a my best friend. The worl- guys officiated college football with and That was a hard thing about retired from officiating. Was you know you don't bump into those guys. They laid little from boston to miami. So you know you probably never gonna see them again and now. That was really hard part. Because for nearly four decades had been a- vital par part of my life. one thing. I will a mission. You're dead fish hostile. That's where the fun is you know when you get to work. You know when he work in the rose bowl is a great experience but not a lot of fun because it kind of becomes work. But i always. I was so appreciative of the men. Who helped me move along in hospital. Officiate you've got me started. I used to always go see them. If i had the orange bowl or rosebowl always by hat or shirt or something down rocking out. Have lunch with a. We had her shirt. appreciated them. Helping me get or was. And i got my last year. The national championship game last game took a bunch of rockingham l'herbe and handed out to people that i loved and enjoyed working with over the years. Now let's talk about the book time before we jump in store near its sidelines. Bloodlines and is father is signs in her life and college football on the sidelines. Think i where songs come from jerry. You're positions was asylum. Yeah again to college Salon because we didn't have fill judges. We only have five officials but when they added the position. I moved down field basically. You've you're twenty yards downfield with the plank coming right at you and you got a lot of long run you got past interferences. Golan plays in line place. I love plays. He got illegal blocks on kicks. And that sort of thing but it's It required a great deal of running much more than most of the position so but now that's enough to be the question. I guess i did. That was fast enough to keep. I knew it could keep up with a running backwards. You know our neighbors Particularly back in the shelby days back in early or late seventies early eighties and they'd see dad run. Wind sprints in the backyard is running backwards and In the reasonable. Because that's you know if you watch the officials that's an infected one time that i've ever officiated anything i the. Sec network South carolina scrimmage and. They put me a dad's position and the next day. My calves were just screaming and a reasonable because running backwards on those turf shoes for from three and a half hours and so yeah good and plus you get a head start in the beginning. They didn't give him a headstart end of his career. They give them a head start so you know if he wouldn't they got beat to the goal line would give him a hard time at the same conference book where you can call us. Oh yeah now. I thought i nailed it but it was stunning. You talk about the sideline. It was stunning. Having stood on the sideline for all those years. From when i was sam our ten thirteen years old. You don't think there's that much of a difference when you walk five feet on the other side of that white line is that day. I walked out there when by studying this. Whatever man i got this. I was behind the whole game and now say this. The guy on my sideline a i had to help him because he just had like knee surgeries a former. Nfl players how to run down the field with every play. Got behind me and the one play i thought on nailed was right at the goal line. And if you read the book you know the only couple of plays of dad's career that he's still you know still sex. Were all these kind of corner. Pylon you know End zone plays. And i have one of those thoughts. I just nailed that man and then we had an evatt time with evaluate repressed box. He chewed me out. He's i think he's got words. Were your father was never out of position in however many years he officiated in you were not in position all day today. Running back thousands of acres of back and colleagues always ran back. It's always felt like you'd better go back because the running fast achy. Just one sam of it. The other part of time was bloodlines. And i can see lines. Sorta go in family when each Sometimes get kind of You know body else. I last fake with all the yelling screaming and everything else is coming on. Where did that talk. But i think it's primarily from the from the family aspect. Although i'll tell you haven't been on the sidelines for some games particularly when i got the ball boy scrimmages at nc state and ballboy firm. That does a lot of actual bleeding goes on satellite but But really it was. You know the fact that it's not just football but it's what it meant our family to all of us. Obviously we've already talked about you. Know how How ryan and app came along getting to go to games as a kid and how it made us you know see that adult world and and have a close relationship with our father but but really you know mom i mean you can tell that reading the book you know. Nobody enjoyed those weekend trips. And the travel to different places More than mom did i. Don't think anybody enjoyed the bowl game trips. More than mom did for some reason. When i think back on it now the game was it is important to her. As it was us. Actual game But for some reason the one example it always comes back to my mind is when we went to the rose bowl. The first time dad had when it was arizona state ohio state and it was going to determine the national championship. And the part of it. That mom loved the best was we got to go to the big warehouse where they were assembling the floats and had those millions flower petals and they were attaching them to those A floats for the for the term roses parade. And i mean she was on cloud nine never left that warehouse away. That ran and i didn't want to leave the football field but we got to get in their early to walk around the field but but she loved all that she loved all that as much as any of us. But that would just kind of close. When we talked about bloodlines. It was all of us as a family Enjoying college football and everything that went with your book covering in china it's It's three stadium. Sad lands your father's in the middle smiles on your faces. It just looks like you're join this experience. Which was the that was the first acc championship game. It was played at the gator bowl in jacksonville florida. State and virginia tech. We thought that would be my last game. We'll have planned to retire that year. And the picture. I plan to retire but actually Decided to stay clean warriors out both high tailed at the jacksonville. We were going to see dad's the last game. So yeah no we love. We left home with little babies hoping. And we we got down there and listen but that day. It's funny because salmon. I as we got older and had kids that we weren't able to go to games like we used to and that day was one of my favorite memories of all time because salmon that you look at that picture stadiums completely empty. So that's what we're talking about. We got there early in salmon. I went out to the fan zone. Try to kick some field goals and drank some free dr pepper or whatever was going on out there and then we sat in the state. I was telling my daughter story yesterday about a about samina. Sit in the grandstands at that game and watching martin man's and so it just that was one of the best days and then they made us leave. We were mad. 'cause we wanna leave the game tight game. Sit in a van and that runs off. The field gets van. We're like congratulations on great career. And police escort out to the highway holland. Buback hotel daggers. I think i'll do one more year. Did three more years. I we're gonna come back listening diamonds. Some stores have. You're gonna find out the answer. The question access more excitement You can officiate. Sigma maneuvers rose. Also stay with us that quick. Shout out here to the team that helps me promote The podcast and the authors impair on the podcast starting with the social grip marketing as a crater. I love collaborating with other creative people especially kind social. Greta know craft and i appreciate they've done with the look and reach of schaller's podcasts facebook and instagram pages. Waiter been easy and fun to work with their efforts show they generally want the podcast seed even have kind of a nice bedside manner for those off the wall ideas. I throw at them from time to time. Offer either clever tweak or better the instead it has a podcast mission to help authors. Tell their stories. I didn't realize until way explain it to me. it's social media's whole best storytelling and they work hard to digest that. Oh and did. I say they have a sense of humor. Definitely a plus in the world of social media and then when it comes to Publicity and engaging with events And also helping to authors. I really love working with spellbound public relations. Particular hannah turner. Who is the chief guest literary cook bar wash through there. She brings so much energy incitement to the table that even the most self conscious introverted. I don't own horn. Kind of client will find himself excited about marketing provided smart creative and tommy marketing ideas and actions for this podcast not mention furring talented authors to the show. She's an initiator who is responsible created easy to talk with and makes marketing fun. What else could you want in a publicist. So if you're like his first name social media hell for some publicity helped You know whether you're an author business. Whatever checkout social marketing and spellbound public relations and hate just one more thing. Since it's christmas here. I thought i would share just a little clip from the third book and the christmas trilogy sam. Who's on the show. Appreciate this being a lawyer. This is a sane end the book where one of the protagonist has to deal with the somewhat of an unruly lawyer on the other side. The first few months of the reindeer hubbard lawsuit. Todd raker three things about torino winter. The president of tiptop toy company his new client. She was headstrong mysterious an uncompromising her behavior today in her deposition was no exception. The court reporter. I'd tarinah ready to take down. Exactly what she said. But torino was silent in response to the last question. The reporter glanced at raker. But he could only shrug. Did you understand my question. Robert greenback was the lawyer for the plaintiffs victims. He liked to call them. I understood it. Renew replied well. Greenback was impatient is the answer. Yes or no. It's not that simple. And why not because answering. Your question does not answer why. The hover board didn't work. Greenback was a big man when he stood up to get water from the credential. It was all effort with a bit of wheezing. He poured a glass. Took a swallow and turn to the court reporter. Read back the last question. The court reporter complied was top toy company. The manufacturer of the computer chip that caused the reindeer malfunction torino. Winter still. Didn't speak greenback setback down. I will break it down for you was tiptop toy company. The manufacturer of the computer chip. Yes and did. The computer chip control the flying abilities of the reindeer hover board. Yes and did. The reindeer hover board the most sought after christmas present in the last fifty years. Turn out to be a complete disaster objection. Baker said argumentative. Rebecca puppies chest. Mr acre this is cross examination. of course it's argumentative. your client is the one being difficult. Mr greenback this is not closing argument. The objection is to the form of your question in particular. The words complete disaster. Please rephrase your question. You don't think it was a complete disaster. Just a disaster. I'm not the one testifying. Breakers said i couldn't agree. More greenback said record. Didn't enjoy this part of the legal process. Defending deposition was like having a cavity filled with up novacaine. All he do is grunt object when the dentist liked. Lawyer struck his nerve torino. Winter appeared unmoved by the bickering among the lawyers. Her facial expression could best be described as confident but in different she looked to be in her sixties tall fit well shaped woman with porcelain skin complemented by silver gray hair. She brushed a fallen. Strand of that hair. From in front of is is and stared at greenback. I am fully prepared to answer your question. Even though it is ill-conceived presumptuous end sarcastic. Robert greenback became more aggressive. And salting me is not a good idea. I'm sworn to tell the truth mr greenback. That's the way you wanna play it. I'm not here to play with you sir. I can see you or not. A very playful person. Raker made a note on his legal pad that said remind climbed to be respectful and then circled it. Greenback tossed a notepad. We'll come back to this topic later. Tell me about your company. It will come in handy when i got the judgement that put you out of business torino. Winter ignored the jab. What do you want to know. She asked for starters who owns it. I have a fifty fifty partner is name next question to rena said one that has something to do with this lawsuit. Greenback slammed his fist on the table. Causing rakers papers to scatter and the water and his glassed swirled he shouted at raker. Do we have to go to the judge about this behavior. Raker remained calm picked up his glass and took a sip of water. Perhaps we should i. Can the judge know you lost your temper and tried to break my table on the other hand it would be quicker if you just laid a foundation for your question. Fine greenback said ms winter was your partner involved in overseeing. The manufacturer of the computer chip. No you're not going to tell me his name. No and it's not a he. Honestly what makes men think that women can't own a successful business. Greenback didn't apologize. Let's focus on the business itself headquarters. Greenland manufacturing plants. Us uk italy and argentina. Where was the computer chip made greenland. Who designed the chip. You're looking at her now. We're getting somewhere. Greenback said torino. Winter brush some lint former sweater. It took you long enough listeners. Back with the gerry. Ryan is sam mcgee comic book sad bloodlines of our life in college football. And we're gonna talk and stories now from the bucket. One of the stories is about the interaction that takes place between officials coaches have in their house what they call the wall of screaming and ranch concern the rave During the sam the so you ready. This is about the middle of perry picking up the space. That always grabs the attention. Visitors is what. I have always called the wall screaming. It's a series of framed photos. Purchaser newspaper photographers around the nation images. We spotted on sunday mornings airport. Newsstands while we were waiting to fly back from games or in the later years on university websites. Many of them are big months. Standing at the goal. Line at penn's penn state's cartagena's halls and a touchdown against usc in the kickoff classic the meadowlands in nineteen ninety-six up with frank howard at clemson in nineteen eighty-six standing with the florida state captains moments before marching to midfield for the coin. Toss it inaugural. Acc championship game in two thousand five eyeballing a catch by george detects. James johnson versus archrival georgia. In the game. They call clean old fashioned hate however the best photos are the angry coaches. There's joe marcin. The man who built south carolina into something other than also ran the introduce the gamecocks black jerseys and their two thousand one space. Odyssey stadium on the sideline during the clemson game in nineteen eighty. Four old dependable is screaming his jaw unhinged and he appears to be pointing directly at dad. Who appears to be totally ignoring the coach. Caption that accompanied the photo in that sunday morning. Paper read coach joe. Marson explains his point of view to a less than interested official. The most notable photo on the wall screaming was taken in tuscaloosa alabama on october. Six two thousand six. When duke visit alabama crimson tide head coach. Mike shula is standing at most two feet off. The back of dad's head is mouth wide open in his hand extended to underline the point he so angrily exclaiming once again dad sued to be purposely ignoring looking toward the scoreboard clock as he fills out his penalty. Car the details of the foul shula. So unhappy about alabama won that game thirty two fourteen. The third from last win of shoeless. Four your tuscaloosa. Ten six weeks later he was far. They replaced him with some guy named nick sabin. What when. I look at that picture of what i think about as amount of pressure. These coaches are under. When mike shula was unload normally me that night. he probably already knew he was finished. It's a reminder that you never truly know what's going on with a coach behind closed doors. The reality is that over. Four hundred and four games of college football officiating. Almost all of it on the sideline our member a few towns. When a coach trilogies flipped out on me and looking back like shula that night throws almost always something else behind it. I think football fans assume and officials out there looking for a reason to throw his penalty flag but the good ones have the complete opposite approach. Typically if a player draws unsportsmanlike penalty or even something like a holding is a really good chance at an official has already warned about it at least once. Keep that up and we're going to have to flag anyone who doesn't believe that needs to do what we have always done it really watch. How good sideline official reacts to coach misfit. A ridiculous amount of time in the game screaming. Yelling and complaints official will walk away from a coach like that. They were warned him directly they will even go to other people on the sideline and say hey. Someone needs to calm him down before he draws sportsmanlike keeps up after that is going to be a penalty or if he breaks to go rule. The clock is ticking. Down to the end of the first half and he's just getting louder and louder. I'm watching the clock thinking okay. We're going to be saved by the bell here. Then with about thirty eight seconds remaining coach young lane. Right into my ear and screamed. You guys were just a bunch of goddamn son of a bitches. Aren't you through my flag personal foul fifteen yards. I went into the white hat. Bob cooper and he said what the hell if you're done that's probably the nicest head coach in america. I said well. I just flagged bob said why what did he say he called me a goddamn son of a bitch. Oh bob said well you are a goddamn son of a bitch. And i told bob well he said you a goddamn some of its to bob said jimmy that damn football. They marked off a fifteen yard story of well. I think i think you did that. Just you can make the president of a former madman sheet averts it it's like picking that section. Yeah appreciate that efforts ask you talked before the break about the early chapters and vote if you can fish night segment of the pikes. You can work rose bowl and talk about that jerry. I come chapters. The puck from Else pasco with college all liver cows landscape of talk a little bit twang which you did initially in urals. Why you can make the statement that you can do that. I guess you can. You can eventually vicious russell. Well i was always broke when i was in college. I could make just enough money in the summer to to pay my bills. And i got back to school but i never had any spending money so i had to have a part time. Job hours outta. I was out playing football game. And i was bored out of my mind when officials said was that you replace the footballs at your to come out and help us fish and so i said well. Maybe i'll try that. So i went out and started -ficiating. Some games may two dollars a game and pretty soon. I found myself recruiting other officials and out training and officials eventually becoming head of the program but usually the the sigma new patient game was played this right after a keg party and usually when we knew we were in trouble when went out for the coin toss nobody could understand us and so there was a little pushing and shoving and and Just a just a smidge profanity and and and you know those kind of the two top social fraternities and so they were a little testosterone and bother to. They were trying to prove who the best fraternity on campus. And at least when you do the michigan notre dame it's an old there we do have rules and we are. There's a coach's controlling them you know. The use of the coach of the new team was the most raucous guy layer so it was a little different than what we dealt with later. Jerry talked about fishing football football. Something you really joy. I take it that there's a lot of camaraderie that occurred after the game with ficials. Remember one story from the book you talked about officiating perha restaurant where everybody always went after the game except tell us what happened after one game. You fish When you went to ed emery was was the coach there. He had went on his the head coach at carolinas he. He was quite a football and He was coaching high and he would always. After the game we go to beaumont's they'd have a little private room for for officials and we go back and we'd have a stake and all compliments coach emrick and we go up there one night to fish a game and three of the four officials were east. Carolina guys of course added played at east carolina and one of his former teammates. Jason brooks was was one of the fficials in the game and so he had laughed. Hasn't got made tonight three east carolina gals here. I'm good late in the game. When a young man for riseborough broke long run apparently win the game. His former college teammate had called holding and so the play got called back and ways. Borough lost the game so in the locker room. The i said guys. We're not going to get a steak tonight out. All of us like that is. It's too nice ago. So we got dressed and we walked into bowman's and and scott like ron said it's kinda like the old west where the slayer walks into barn about it. Stops turns looks at it the way they looked at us and and the manager said what the hell are you know there. We said we didn't then coach. Him recall is yeah. He called and said if y'all came in here to have your wrist state on that day but it was really funny because they had remained friends forever. When i when i was president william he actually had a he had a president's. Pass the come in a game. You could come to come. Sit with me in the press box. Because i loved him as a friend a new more about football than anybody scrape society been younger. You have a family story but you ought to tell swelled for some reason. This always ends up coming back to that. Virginia north carolina game when i was ten years old and it was just a big day for both ryan in me Because like he said he's down there with his camera that santa claus body Standing beside two guys with a giant lenses in the expensive cameras and he probably got the best picture of the day of berry word score scoring a winning touchdown of course. He got clobbered by a unc defensive. Back which might have been only clean edited by unc. Had all day news only about fourteen. Yeah yeah and weighed. Probably you know nanny six pounds and a but apparently at that game Or so i have been told I walked out onto the field Dirt a time out tug don't dad's jersey and And standing at the fifth yard line. And i wanna tell you you guys. Are you guys doing a great job diet. Never i've never confessed to this crime. But dad swears that's the way it went down. I don't know what the the less the least credible part of that story is that i went out of the field that i told them they were doing story. Enron you saying that As a child watching your father In your career theus satellites new lots of stories here about officials with the site to. I'm sorry the coaches with the officials about how they feel. I think there's one where that catches running field holding the card up tonight card calling you be. He's going to go back to high school. And there's a certain industrially. Gerry ford says this fucking catava perspective watching on the sidelines. Did you sometimes feel like Protective of unani feel protective officials general. Now as you watch games. What is your perspective. 'cause you're there to cover what people wanna watch which is the actual sporting contests. They don't necessarily care about officials. But you've got this history. Yeah well and i think i've been labelled officials apologised. Sometimes but the reality is that i have always seen it as part of my job. Just because i'm fortunate enough to have the platform with college football to humanize officials you know and this is what we talked about in the book. Dad set it off the top of the show. Which is you know. Officials are human beings first and foremost and i'm not naive. And i've learned the hard way that i knew that when we wrote this book you know. Hopefully thousands of people aren't Illegal read the book. But i don't expect any of them. The man i love referees books over with but but i think that they're going to respect them a little bit and so that's always been. My goal is on to explain. This is how this happened even when they get it wrong you are. This is how this went down and Years ago for espn the magazine. I used to do a column. That was an official scouting report. And so there's five big games coming up. That weekend i would talk to officials a lot of. I've known since i was a kid and i would say all right. Would you expect to see this weekend from west virginia in texas. And i would say i know this is what it's like on the sideline and this is what this author of what i was trying to illustrate. Underline was how smart officials were and they've done their work and they scouted the teams and they know the teams just like the opposing teams. And just like the the listed and a lot of cases no more than most cases no more than a lot of my television colleagues. Do but i got in trouble with that deal because i started talking to officials anonymously and i got a little too specific. Let's say what. I wouldn't give a name but i'd say a big east umpire said someone's up and it was. It was west virginia dana. Holson houston now. He head coach west virginia At the end of that season those stories. I did got a lot of traffic and and i think it helped a kind of illustrate while trying to say which is officials. Really no football way better than you think they don't just show up and do the game lead and they're not out during a evil are trying to take them down but they understand the teams in the tendencies that they're going to see all saturdays and i got a call from doug rhodes who at the time was the coordinator of football officiating. Jc and as you know from the book was one of das- longest tenured sideline colleagues and doug colleagues. Hey man he says. Will noah just left our end of season officiating meeting with all the coordinators around the country. I said yeah because yeah you gotta stop writing this column at your rights. He said he said we all agree that you make officials look great. He gives me manny is. We've had so. They had to implement a rule that stands to this day. It's been ten years. Which is officials aren't allowed to talk to the media directly and a lot of the officials on the ryan gero because they know they they're the ones that's talked to me the gave me the information and put it out there and now i've ruined it for everyone so this another's a designated person or you just go through the coordinator if you have efficient in question but yeah that's a really long way of saying yes I like to try to educate the public with the platform. Been given on officials and to the point to a lot of my colleagues are like. Yeah yeah ryan. We heard your dad. Was ref thanks for bringing that up again. Jerry we're talking about Evaluations you got the anyway by staff looked after the officials you also gotta valuated about people coming out at church restaurant one of people who kill fan at one time said in a game that you officiated drive out an exception that we've made a difference. Some lady said she said. I wanna ask you. Bet your temperamental because you have people screaming ear critical of the after the fact too that can be wearing when you set headed you separate that sort of because you're part of a community was dealing with it and you sort of had people lean on or how did you deal with that. Because you're you're a best you're used to being in charge and telling people are being worth staying there. You're taking a bronco and you can't really stand up and fend yourself because that's not true position to do it right a deer. The game's only once or twice in four hundred games. I kind of lose it on the field when it comes just went all in all only the and but but usually i i. I wasn't aware it was there. I just i just just built in disag- nor it on a one of my high school. Teammates asked me a couple of years ago as i have the world of you concentrated officiate. Eighty five thousand people screaming at you. And i said you know i never knew there. Will there a. you're doing your job. You're focused on twenty two players and six other officials in two head coaches net. Nobody else is in the stadium. But but During you know when i lived in raleigh. Especially if a game at maryland or virginia. Florida state and clemson. I never heard a word. But if i had a game will the four north carolina schools. When i went to church on sunday morning. Get follow to the car by. Somebody suggested what we could have done are asking me a question. What happened or whatever and i just kinda went with it and smiled and laughed. It would just it would just part of it. I think that anytime in my life or those president wing it or officiating My wife took the criticisms a lot more seriously than i did. It would hurt her feelings and our discount rush off. Because if you think this guy's mad way do you see the guy next week. He's going to be matter. You know just cry stories to and as you look back because around us down from book barry switzer take remarked Don't send booker mckee back next. Time sent jesse. James cam because at least i know that's exactly right. That's how the coaches field i think. Sometimes they when they see us walk in. We slept bridge night before none of us had jobs. And we you know all these apparent only close. We had what we were the game on. Saturday had but you know there were shocked to find out. We were fairly highly educated and and then reasonable people talk shifted. Samsung is this book. Samba's as much about Family as it is anything else some. There's friendships family. You talk a little bit of metro. Mother This is not just you and your brother and your father. It was a family. Yeah yet absolutely was that. I even remember the first college football games i went to before we started traveling. At dad's games mom would take us over the gardner webb seat gardner webb game. Because that's where. Dave is working time and then we ended up living in the triangle. You know from ballboy Nc state to go into a ton of games. By the time. I was looking at where i want to go to college. I had been all these places ten times but with us always was a family trips. Most of the time it was all four of a school in somewhere like dad was saying earlier. There were also times. Where he you know he he would take just ryan or just me As you know. Landis i've done a lot of cases that involve wrongful death and a lot of times what you hear people talking about. Is that time my dad or my mom or whoever the person is that that's died at time that just two of us went to the beach and that time just the two of us did this or that and With us a lot of those memories are at that time. Dad took me to. Uva that time datuk round clumps And it's really it was. It was always the four of us and most of the time was four. I was really enjoying these trips together. Spending time together. And when i look back on it that's what i see i see us as a family and interestingly you know as our our as we all got busy and ram working for the football team at tennessee and dad was Officiating still and taking mom on most of the weekends with him and was at wake forest or later later on in the northeast. So we you know what we ended up talking. Dad's like well. I had boston college west. virginia day. Let me tell you about that ryan's like let me tell you about tennessee. Auburn game and And mom would be like Let me tell you how. Cool the Shopping around boston college. But or i might say. I have to go post from the but but hopers and either we worked together. It was such an integral part of us as a family. We would sort of catch back up at the end of saturday's or maybe on sunday afternoon and say what was what was your life and football today yet. Your mother has passed on a nesovic. Proud of the suffered all three together. Rally thanks. she'd had about to this collection that the three of us put it's Every day is about so and so but there are some days that are much more impactful when it comes to that question and others and the day that book came and i'd they sent three boxes books to the house and mmediately drove. Dad's house said who you go and have a daughter women. We got to watch him. Open it up in a winning brothers houses said who you go and right there in their brand new house in the kitchen. I got to watch them open house. Best part so yeah. What i've always wondered is how would have been you know head. She'd been able to experience that but she listened from the time i was. I can remember elementary school in shelby north carolina and I was very fortunate very early on have teacher in the second grade was l it was like you know she would keep after class and we would talk about writing and she would help me. Do the old construction paper stapled in the middle and turn it into a book is now. I want you to write a book about this. I want to write a about that. And i would come home and talk them all about it. Malls are one day. You're going to write a book real book like one of these books in here and so that's that's Yeah i think about that. Yes so Before we have our reading here we do. We do this on the showers. Podcasts ryan discussion necessarily come good transition to that run of. Let me start jerry. Did you ever thank god. I know you mentioned before the paper saying that. Write this down. jared thank. You would help breidenbach eventually like sports. Also how gratifying. Now have this. Well it is very gratifying. it's And not only did we get to spend a lot of time together but The reminiscent brought us back into the company of a lot of people that we loved and cared about over the years. And i'll a quite a few of the officials who help me get started in college football and the ones who helped me move to the acc along with us but it was really fun. Just to reminisce about them and remind ourselves of the we would not have had this great experience had not been some other people mucinous along the way and sometimes they were very. They were very critical and they were just trying to help you get better and back with them was for a special and no. I never thought we'd we'd ever get the book put together. I thought we'd just like most officials we talk about it till the end of time and never get it done but it. It is very special to the book of remembrance of a almost forty years atlanta's also to you know i'm a big believer in you. Know you need to get their names on the record you know Alan gatty normal. Nave and hannah mcgee and Can rank in you know emory and these people that everybody knows who bobby bowden is and everyone knows you know who ray lewis is and and you know all the big names are in the book but to me is important to get the names of those people there in the library of congress. Now right i mean. They're they're out there. They're the library. You check out a book and you can read about these people to me. It's important that these people had such an impact on dazzling life is such an impact on our lives Now now they're on the record you know. Now they're out there. And and i think they deserve that in their lives and so i i felt that i always take very seriously working on any project or particular project like this that you know i won't i won't some also guy you're who's i'm never going to meet to read this book and know about mom all right and to know about sam and to know about You know these people. They've never heard of and That if it wasn't for them my dad wouldn't have done what he did and result salmon. I would not have ever done what we did. And the people at work so hard behind the scenes these these officials Acc big e small college high school. Whatever i people know you have supported me to get their names imprint. And get them on the record for for forever. Well because terms hackers turn out. The samsung is dead. Who rule enforcement. Snow's lawyer yell at right before same with this question. When i asked you you running ride of peon. You also disallowed Book for this one. How is this project of writing. Different advice would you give to other families who have stories like this. I wanna tell to collaborate on this. Well i would say that even if you don't believe there's any chance that you could write a book you need to get those conversations recorded you know and you need to get them transcribed and you need to have handed down. You know. I have one tape of me sitting in front porch talking to my grandmother when i was a teenager about our family history Man i wouldn't. I'll fight you to the ground. You try to take that thing away from me and so to me. It's just important even if it's just put in a folder in your own home or to put on a zip drive in your own home is to get those things down. But what always tell her by the of written other books But i never felt pressure like this one because number one. I wanted to get story right number two. I wanted you look to cover. This book said all the time Three gentlemen on the cover that book we share six college degrees and i barely got one of them will make sure that i do that. Make sure i did those guys right so tip tip the hall. The listeners wanna be writers in take a college degree to route. you take. It might take one but you don't have to be great say you. I'm your lawyer of rice books. You're actually work novel now. That's a whole nother topic about lawyers turned authors. Go there but what attracted you to riding and mean you're in the courtroom fight me to fight on the other side of cases together a pretty intense environment sometimes. What what's the always said Recovering lawyer challenges that. I enjoyed writing that conflict that joy experiencing what what attracts. You will always say landis about you. Know being litigator like like. You've been a long time. Like i've been it would be as if you're a surgeon and you're working on somebody in someone else's paid very well to smack your hands away or pulled a scalpel out of your hands. You we have one of the few careers where someone else is always paid every day to try to stop us from doing our job I've you know and and we do a lot of his lawyers but it's just a completely different kind of writing. It's very adversarial style writing. I've always loved to write dislike. Ron will say and i had a. I had a third grade teacher who got me interested in running. A seventh grade. Teacher had another added steam lady joanne clinton for english in the ninth and the eleventh grade when my novel comes out next year her. Name's school being the acknowledged that she convinced that not only did. She showed me that. I could love writing but she convinced me. I might be okay at But yeah it's to make it. It's a creative process. That's fun it's something that you're like rancid putting something down putting it on the record having it out there like the novel working own about our family story from the nineteenth century But there definitely is that aspect of it of this. It's a heck of a lot more peaceful than what. I do Sixty hours a week. You know so I it's something that is also like a hobby for me. That is a that's relaxing in a way not quite as relaxing standing in a river with a fly rod. But i think those two go hand in an how many times you spent some nice time outdoors. My brain immediately goes to something. I want to ride or a story. I want to tell But yeah there's definitely a a search for peace aspect for it for me compared to my daily adversary ally. We've had been lawyers. A turned authors of showers kissed trying to sign his quoted. We only so many months of but it is a ramp up here with the ratings of the Added human housing officials. Start with ryan reading section or Followed by sam. We're gonna finish with the reading. Your father the starts chapters abra america's with also that check the morning after das- last game. I made the ultimate sports writer. I opened. Espn dot com clicked on my story a day with the bcs rafts and scroll down to the comments section. This was the first sentence that i read. Of course this idiot would write something. Nice about these referee idiots. His last name is the same as the field judge. It's his damn dad. Refs suck in the years since the last game. I have written about him often. I have talked about it. maybe more. i've done it so much. it has become a running joke with. Espn college football co workers. Hey ron your dabbles aref. Wow you never mentioned that. But why wouldn't i now have the opportunity to cover college. Football the very dream. That was ignited on the sideline of virginia ninety three and my perspective on the game. Which i believe to be. Unique comes directly from officiating. Bloodline as result. It will always be my ongoing mission to humanize officials to try and help. Sports fans develop a better understanding of that third team on the field. People don't have to like officials. Most number will and i know that however honestly believed that can be smarter football fans if they have a better understanding of the men and women who blow their whistles not just on autumn weekends but in every sport at every level heck. That's why the book you currently hold in your hands exists. I've seen firsthand that watching the officials at addition to the teams make the game more interesting. I've seen that happen with. My friends. Started watching dad because i made them. I know probably drove him crazy with it in the beginning but then one of the might say man. Your dad was all over that pass downfield and that feels like a win. But we aren't naive here. We know there will always be way. More people boo initials are making fun of them and paid attention to them or respecting them. Especially now down eclipse one day. I was running off the field with dr ernie benson the groundbreaking hcc educator another official. Who was an attorney between us. We had nine college degrees this. Oh boy and a blue ribbon hat. Who had about three teeth shook a beard austin yale. Y'alls the three dumbest some bitches. I've been down here. We're probably never gonna convince that guy that officials are actually pretty good pretty smart people who love football even the he does. And that's okay but that doesn't mean we stop try great jerry's we wrap this not like so give you the last word year. You've had this first of all you're holding your hand on your yes run. I lift weights. We always said that That prostitutes football referees wore the goddess. Go this jewelry. And i've the most obscene rings that this is not the worst one but it's a but we always usually if we had game of any kind of importance they would give us a ring or watch or something which you know. We all appreciate having this memento but but that's that one's pretty special. That was the second time to the rose bowl and it was a southern callum in michigan is great game. It was nice having memento of it just sort of found worse injury of with his career at the beginning to fish rose bowl national championship games. A lot of this happened over that time of you've had a great experience yourself tag along wife with As well it's time now you're you're young boys to demand. Who were you help you tell the story. What does that mean to you as you reflect on. This is a thicker. I it makes me feel like i've done my job. You know my my dad made it. My my biological dad died when i was in Had a wonderful father and he used to say to me all the time the most support job he would ever have was was given direction to mom brother myself. Help us become in. And i kind of feel locked job. That's kind of where i am in life. Now when i when. I look and see sam and his family healthy and happy successful has run. His family healthy happy and successful. I feel like well. It's up most important job oil window that bits. And that's a great way to end it on a on a thank sam. Thanks for being showed absolutely rod. Thanks for being here but yeah most is great. Usually when i talked to say his lawyer friends islah boring and get sound. Have you on the show. You bring your your young boys. Neil turn into action. Well that's it for today. Another found author giving voice to the written word next tuesday. We'll have another in-depth episode with readings and conversations about the written word and the writing life of a local or regional author who before then be on the lookout for another under the covers episode where we do much the same thing we do here but quicker and sometimes away from the studio because there are just too many good authors. Not enough town if you like what we're doing. Please consider leaving short written review on apple podcasts or the podcast platform of your choice. Because when you do our authors voices travel much further and wider in podcast land. And if you're inclined to help us help authors give voice to the written words and you'd like some member content cultivated by authors and me as our thanks. Please consider becoming a member support. You can find out how to become a member supporter and more about today's show and all previous episodes at charlotte readers. Podcast dot com. You can keep up with news about the show. Join our email list and engaging with us on social media we promise not to spain me because that takes too much time and if you do join our email list we'll give you a free e book written. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate until next week. I'm landis wave for charlotte readers pockets charlotte readers. Podcast is a member of the twin city. Podcast network powered by ortho carolina now offering video visits. So you can take control of your orthopedic care from the comfort of your home schedule online at ortho carolina dot com ortho carolina you improved.

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Lindsay Jones & Katherine Terrell talk AFC

The Bill Barnwell Show

1:10:25 hr | 2 years ago

Lindsay Jones & Katherine Terrell talk AFC

"The Bill Barnwell show is presented by ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Barnwell show. Bill Barnwell ESPN. We are here on Thursday, November fifteenth two thousand eighteen a little later, we're going to talk with Catherine trail about the AFC north including the chances of Marvin Lewis, and John harbach keeping their jobs in Cincinnati and Baltimore respectively, but first we're gonna talk some AFC west and joining us do that as frequent contributor to the show. It is the athletes Lindsay Jones Lindsay. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing bell? I am good. I am very intrigued by the game. It is coming up on Monday night. And granted not just saying that because an ESPN employees and this is a good game on Monday night football, which you might say has not always been the case this season. You may have had a pretty mediocre game last week. But this week things are a lot better chiefs. And Rams it was supposed to be in Mexico City. It is going to be instead in Los Angeles, California. Which is why Lindsey you find yourself in Colorado this week your hometown or your home, I should say with the Rams. Yes, I'm done Colorado Springs. The the Rams came out here on Monday thinking that they would spend a week training altitude and then fly to Mexico City, which is at about eight thousand feet elevation and the air force academy here in Colorado Springs is about seventy five hundred feet, so even higher elevation than Denver is actually. But instead they thought their game was moving back to Los Angeles. But the Rams decided to stay here. They're just in there still so much upheaval back in may. And specifically the part of Los Angeles where the Rams train up in Thousand Oaks where they still have people from the organization or still displaced from their homes a lot they had already mid range mints players families to come out here in Colorado. So they're just bending the entire week here at in Colorado Springs practicing at the air force academy. And then they're going to go back to LA for what hopefully could be the game of the year. Very very, very excited should be awesome. I mean, the first time in footballs and back in LA since like nineteen eighty five. So yeah, the should be really fun. I mean, it's a weird going. Like the week long vacation that you were expecting or not expecting at the same time for the Rams. But I mean, this is a team that will get to the chiefs element of this in a second. But a team that you know, certainly, of course with the Cooper Cup injury is dealing with some adversity some changes on the offense of side of the football. Do you think they're going to be able to sort of weather that you think it's going to be a situation where maybe we're we're not appreciating how much coober Cup really adds to the Rams offense. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the important things about Hooper. It's not just that he's a very good receiver on third down. And I think it's just the the relationship has Jared Goff that they've built together over the last couple years. I mean almost immediately started twenty seventeen I mean Cooper became Jared Goff guy. I mean, he was that security blanket printing, they're very close friends away from the field. So he's just that guy that you know, when everything else if everything else breaks down, and that doesn't happen that often Sean McVay offense. But he was just the guy that. Gough is just so comfortable with. But I think the good news. If you're the Rams and the situation, and there's there's no good news losing Cooper cop, obviously. But this is the first time that they'll have to play without him this year. They lost him for a few weeks after he suffered the injury back in early October. So they they know what their offense will look like without him. So it's not like they're going into the game of the year. All of a sudden, you know, removing most important piece for the first time. So and I think you know, I said most important piece I think the most important pieces Todd Gurley. No, I think they have a lot of mechanisms to make up for the loss of Cooper Cup. But you know, I don't I don't want to minimize it. But I think if there's any team that is set up to lose your favorite favorite wide receiver. There's probably a team like the Rams who has Brandin cooks who has you know, cause some emerging tight ends. I think we might see them do more to tight ends now. And then obviously of tug early who is going to be able to catch a lot of passes could be you know, really good weapon in the passing game as well. And a lot of other offenses are not equipped the way the Rams are to. Up for that sort of loss. You know, I'm happy you brought that up Lindsey 'cause I was going to ask you about Todd Gurley in about this Rams game plan against the chiefs. Now, we know when teams are playing the Rams typically or they're playing the chiefs the most logical game plan, and we saw this with the Seahawks last week against the Rams was you wanna run the football. You want to chew much clock as possible wanna keep your defense and your pass rush fresh and wanna keep a possibly dominant passing attack on the sidelines. So that would be a logical thing for either of these teams to do in this game where the total in Vegas is sixty three and a half points, which I believe is the. Largest total in at least modern recorded history. There might be a line in the past that was higher, but I have not seen any line that was higher than that that anyone has any evidence of. So let's say sixty three and a half is the highest total in recent football history. Do you think either of these teams are going to change their strategy and triumph play more conservatively in trying on the ball more to try and keep the other teams offense on the sidelines? And if you do which of these two teams, do you think it's more likely to sort of go after that strategy? Yeah. Well, Fisher thing because we talk about how both of these teams are passing game. It's a quarterback. But the a of both of these teams really good running teams and. A lot of times they are they can be very much built around their running backs and cream hunt. Let the NFL rushing last year and the games when sometimes the chiefs are at their best. It's the game. So they can keep feeding Kareem hunt, and he can have those wild games. And what's so fun? I think about this matchup is that both teams can beat you so twice. They can beat running the ball. They can beat you with your running game gets eliminated and they have to pass. So you know, I think both teams are going to be very committed to running the ball. I mean, it's just so much critical piece of their identities. And these are the best pass catching running backs in the in the league as well. So I think it's it's gonna I think both teams are going to want to run the ball. Really? Well, and I think the the other interesting thing neither of these defenses are particularly good at renting the run. So. You know, both teams could be effective at doing it. And what's so crazy when you watch how teams try to defend the rounds or tied to defend the chiefs, isn't it? Do you wanna try to? I remember watching the Broncos against the Rams a couple of weeks ago month and. The Broncos defense played about the best anybody has played against the Rams, and they did so saying we're gonna shut down the passing game. And we're gonna make Todd Gurley beat us. Well, that's not a not a great gamble. I mean, it's not like you're asking, you know, Chris ivory, you know, very average mediocre running back. I'm sorry. Because I really, but I don't know why just picked him out. But look this girly. I mean, this is a guy who is legitimately an MVP candidate to beat you. And I think the the Rams offense or the Rams defense if they say, okay, we're gonna try to really, you know, focus on stopping stopping tyreek hill and Travis Kelsey. And we'll dare rain hunts at us. Well, that's not really a great proposition either. Absolutely. And I mean, it's it's really fascinating to me because I think you know, you'll get that total sixty three and a half points. I'm inclined to say it's going to go under just because it's such a huge total because it would make sense for both. These teams of trion slow down the game or trained. Slid on the game, but like the sort on the plays and not play aggressively, and and sort of use the the running game they have to give you the team's offense off the field. But like the same time and also like they could score twenty eight points in in a matter of three or four minutes. What's interesting to me? Is that for the season? We were looking at the chiefs. I think we would have said, hey, this defense is not going to be very good bye told you that Barry was not going to be playing come. We ten headed play the snap all year because of heel injury. You'd be like, oh that she's defense is going to be a mess. We kind of figured the Rams defense was going to be good this defense that last year. It was good. It was I think in the top six if I'm not mistaken on the field up now in Devia way. At by the end of the year, there were sixty s in DVD way this year, and that's category. They are twentieth. In DVD. This defense has not been very effective. And so, of course, you covered Wade Phillips for your around we pump certainly in the Denver days. And I'm are you, sir? Surprised that he hasn't figured out how to make this defense work, or is it just a thing where because they made so many changes, you kind of have to hope it just you know, coalesce incomes together during the second half of the season. Yeah. Anything part of it is personnel. I think they miss a key. But to leave a lot. I mean, we I think the markets peers edition got a lot more headlines back when it happened in the in the spring, just because I'm honestly, I'm not even sure why because maybe his age or the number pick sixties had recently. But in kind of the baggage that came with him in terms of his interactions with the coaching stuff that he played for dating back in time college, but keep Toledo was really the the more important piece there in terms of on a play to play basis. I mean, the thing about Marcus Peters is that he will he will make some spectacular stops. And he will but he doing so he gambled a lot and he can be beaten a lot more easily than to leave does to lead as like a true shutdown corner on every single play. And they really really missed. That presence and Marcus Peters play has suffered because of it and recently and he's coming off really rough couple really restrictive games. And so they're going to need more from him. But I think one of the things we've seen this from Wade Phillips defensive before where you know, the the most amazing thing about over. The course of his career is defensive coordinator is that his track record with the first year that he comes into place is really impressive the way he's able to turn around and defense in a single season is really really incredible. But then the second season there tends to be a drop off. It's certainly happened in Denver. They they won the Super Bowl his first years of quarterback and that and then the defense kind of a step back, then I'm here. I don't know if that means that, you know, posing offenses are kind of catching up to it. But his greatest impact tends to happen into his first year. He comes in and gets to kind of install his defensive rush. And you know, I honestly wish I knew exactly why that was so there was kind of a step back. But yeah, I mean, I it's been surprised. That they haven't been as good. But like, I I think the Peter's Peter's playing without Leib has been a really big part of that. And then the fact that they have not had consistent edge pressure. And those are really the two most important pieces to await Philip's defense is the outside pressure. And then a pair of quarterbacks that can really play on coverage. And we just haven't seen that consistently enough from them. So I think that's really really where it comes down to because Aaron Donald is gonna wreck just about every game. He plays then. But if you're not getting the help on the edges and then on the back end. That's there's only there's kind of a limit house after that can be absolutely when you think about the chiefs respective in this game if you were like like I'm thinking of independence day, and like the the weak spot in the what the ship I guess the ship that Randy Quaid flew into if there's a weak spot in this chiefs offense, unfortunately for them happens to be directly across from where. Aaron Donald the dumb consume lineup which is defensive tackle. You look at this chiefs offense Austin reader is playing center, and you widely is playing right guard. Their information Morris who's been out with a cousin and Lawrence divinatory. The doctor who is on injured reserve, Cowan Irving has played very well. They're left guard former Browns cast off, but the interior of this offensive line. You would have to figure is sort of the the part that way has to be salivating over attacking in this game plan come Monday night now. Oh, I'm -solutely. And you know, I think we've seen from around. He's he's very mobile. He doesn't give himself enough credit. You know, I don't I don't think anybody's gonna compare his like forty time to you know, my Jackson's this point. But he if we actually had a forty time for the more Jackson, totally different story. Sorry for handed, then but he is remarkably mobile and very adept to getting out of the pocket throwing on the run, but he has not faced interior. Line like this. And I think we have seen a little bit. But he can't get flustered. If you're chasing him a lot and hitting him a lot especially early in games. You know? He hasn't handled the pressure. Look what this has twelve start gonna make. I mean, so that's that's to be expected for quarterback of his kind of age and experience. So yeah, I mean, I think they're going to get to him and disrupt that offensive game plan that Andy Reid is creating right now. Yeah, really really starts with you know, Aaron Donald and hitting him. And you know, what he's shown what Patrick Mahomes a show, and you know, a little bit about Russell where he's able to get out. He's able to continue making plays even while he's under pressure. But he might have to do that a lot given what the Rams are going to present on that defensive line. Even if it's not coming necessarily from the edges, right? The tangent unit hoop houses for tencent's here on the show. I will say that much. So I'm going to ask you about a totally different tangent. Patrick Mahomes today. Stories have come out number one Patrick Mahomes enjoys catch up on his stake. And then perhaps even worse, Patrick Mahomes enjoys ketchup. On his MAC and cheese. Now, you are you are the mother of a small child. So I'm assuming you've seen some you've seen some food some food combinations. That may adults may not find quite as thrilling. But this is change the way you view, Patrick Mahomes. I mean entirely I mean, he's. No. Doesn't make me wanna go out to dinner with them necessarily tend to pick the restaurants. But I wouldn't like slam by you know, my knocking down in storm out of the restaurant. I was having dinner with them any ordered. He or put that catch on his MAC and cheese. I would probably ask him what the heck was going on. But, you know, look, she's very young. I think a lot of us. You know, when we were in college, probably eight didn't have the eight some weird stuff didn't have specific aided a pallet. So, you know, look, he's gonna have already has a lot of money. He's going to have a lot of money pretty soon. Hopefully can be exposed to some better dining biz. I mean, hopefully, he's not like dousing has, you know, Jack, stack are Oklahoma. Joe's barbecue and catch up there in the city. Hopefully, there's some people who are showing him the right way to you know, to eat his barbecue in Kansas City. I'm sure Andy Reid could give him give him some pointers but questionable. But I love shown from other magazine. He unearth those type of. Cool. Details all the time and the whole steak on catch up on his stake. Thing was just one of those crazy details that it seems like Seth is only able to find you to be clear here when you say you would not run out of the restaurant. Have you had an experience in your life where someone has made a condom choice, and you have run out of restaurants. I know I I haven't. Although I will say I mean, my husband, and I have completely different tastes in like condiments, and you know, like frozen yogurt toppings and flavors. So I'm used to like having you know, the person who I'm dining with I have opposing views to their choices. But you know, it is odd. But I look he's he can make choices, and you know, hopefully, he'll grow to appreciate, you know, just a great like medium, rare steak that doesn't need anything else on it. There was one time. I was living in Boston in college. And seeking college pilots. We got like a like a pizza. Men you on our door. We'd never heard of before. And had like a frozen yogurt section with a list of a hundred toppings and one of the toppings listed was Meatball. It was like twits tricks knickers Meatball. Milky way. And it was like what meet like, and so he calls, and we were like, hey, can we get like a pizza and one Meatball frozen yogurt and the gas? Sure when people frozen yogurt, no problem. And so we were fascinated we had no idea it was going to come and then showed up, and it was like one hundred grand frozen yogurt. Like really like there was like some kind of miscommunication. But I it was so confusing and so distressing to me the Meatball frozen yogurt. So it just came on this. I it was like frozen yogurt and then like maple and a Cup. No. There was no people to be found. It was like I never it. And no Meatball to be spoken of it was very confusing in very very very distressing. But I think we need to get on the case if we could get them to investigate that would be great. I think bathroom should be allowed to eat whatever he likes someone who's been bullied for his dementia or lack thereof online. All right. We'll get back to the rest of the AFC west with Lindsay here in a moment. But I. Wanted to talk about Dollar Shave Club. And I'm a lazy guy talked about this a little bit in the past tunnel. Wanna go out to the store? Wait online, walk around in the cold in the snow in the muck of Manhattan. It's not from me. I'm lazy. I wanna get my food delivered to me. I want to get try cleaning delivered to me. I know it sounds like maybe this is a joke. This is all things I do in a regular basis, and I wanna get my toiletries delivered to me as well. And the good news is I can do just that with Dollar Shave Club. Because daughter of his everything you need to get ready. No matter what you are getting ready for whether it's you hair. Can I don't need that? But I'm sure other people out there do for your skin. I got some of that your face. I don't one of those. It's all right. It could be better. I'm not gonna lie. But it looks it's best with dollarshaveclub. No matter what I'm using including for example, face ball. Whether it's the toothpaste, it's easy to set up and it's easy to use. Because you just order it. Once you. Say, hey, I want to get this once every few weeks guess where it comes right to your door. They don't deliver it like down the street. That would be dumb. That'd be stupid. You shouldn't do that to deliver it right to your door on the schedule. You are hoping for and with a handsome discount, the more you buy the more, you shave and right now, they've got a bunch of starter sets. You can try for just five dollars like that oral care kit after that three stocks ships regularly sized products at regular price. So what are you waiting for? Don't be someone who likes waiting waiting. The worst. Get your starter set for just five dollars right now at dollarshaveclub dot com slash Barnwell. My last name be a r n W E L, L, that's dollarshaveclub dot com slash Barnwell. Now back to the show. I think there's another interesting game happening for different reasons in the AFC west. And that is of course, the Denver Broncos playing the Los Angeles chargers and two teams, obviously. Heading that seems like in different directions. The chargers are seven and to look to be really prime for a playoff spot in the AFC. The Broncos clearly not the case for them. Both these teams sort of need to win this game for different reasons is there who do you think would be more upset about a loss here in this game. I think the chargers because I think they're starting to figure out who they really are. I mean, they went on this epic road trip in terms of you know, they went to Ohio, and then they went to London. And then they went to what Seattle and they went to Oakland. I mean, they have been gone for so long that LA probably forgot that they actually had a second team. If they even remember that they had a second team in the first place they've been gone so long that you know. If they come back and lose to Broncos team that they have really dominated over the last three years. I think I think that would just be a real, you know, a big setback towards the team that they're really becoming. And you know, I it's hard to imagine them touching the chief in that division. Although they are they do get to play one more time. I mean, let's if the row at the chiefs somehow lose this week and the chargers win I mean, they're gonna game. And that makes that December thirteen game. It's thirteen game at our hood, even more important, right? I mean, but they're really playing for, you know, certainly, certainly wildcard spot him, and you look around the rest of the AFC, and you know, they're not just like leading kind of that wild card race. I mean, they are like in control of that first mile carts about right now. So you know, I just I think it would be a setback for the chargers if they were to lose to this Broncos team. And I know I've been reading this stuff that's coming out of Denver this week. They had their Byerly classic. And they're talking about how you know. They can. You know show that they're improving and that they need to see a lot of stuff out of their young players, and you know, advance Josephus Thirdly coaching for his job. But. You know, at this point at already feels kind of like, it's a loss. It's a loss season in Denver. And, you know, getting to what you think it's seven and nine or something what does that what does that really do that actually force them to keep Joseph longer? I don't know. I just think I think we're gonna learn a lot more about the chargers and much more excited about the charges at this point on the Broncos actually skipped ahead to my next question. I was gonna ask you from the Broncos perspective thinking about they're three and six record. I mean is there you think a a level of play or a final record or some evidence of something showing over the final seven games that you think would lead them to keep Vance Joseph. I just no matter. What happens they are pretty much going to make a move this off season the matter. What? Yeah. I mean, I guess they, you know, if they pulled together, and they you know, they can go on some sort of Ryan, and, you know, get to get the eight or get into the wild card positioned somehow. I mean, the biggest problem I think that you know, I say from how the Broncos. That they keep making the same mistakes mauve and over and over. They don't look like they're low coach team. They're one of the more penalized teams in the NFL. They have the things that were issues last year that they thought they were gonna fix by you know, out in case keenum into the mix or, you know, making smart changes on the offensive line hasn't really been any better. I mean, they still commit a lot of turnovers. They're they're defense is still regrets. So make bad decisions over and over again. So, you know, I think that's what should be most troubling. If you're John Elway and Joe Ellis. And all the folks that are running the Broncos right now, it's kind of the repeated ineptitude that we're staying out of the Broncos, you luck. If they can if they can make a run, and they show that they fixed everything here after the bye week, and they were kind of talking about that this week. But oh, we got to really, you know, sell scout. And they've got to spend a lotta time focusing on ourselves and refresh and we're healthy. They're getting a rice Raymond supposed to be back. I think they're Stewart or starting safety should be back. They're going to be getting some pieces, but. This isn't a team that over the last couple of years, and certainly not under Vance Joseph that his are actually played well coming out of one of these by week type situations, they certainly have been last year. They were hot going into their by week and twenty seventeen and then came out the next week and just got their butts completely kicked by the giants who are bad team here, and they came out of their mini by earlier this year after that they went against the cardinals on Thursday night and played really poorly the next week. So yeah, I mean, maybe I'm more pessimistic than most people about the Broncos right now. But I just think that they think they really need to be kind of in full on. Let's focus on next year. See what we can get other young guys. Let's learn a lot about all of these guys. And you know, there's a risk they. Yeah. I mean, if they get two seven and nine I mean, that's going to be probably bad enough that it gets Joseph fired but her but not not enough to actually get themselves position for a really high drastic. Yeah. Which at this point, isn't that what you really want? You know? You know, what do you think is the best possible outcome for the the Broncos? Would it be if they just go three and thirteen and lose out and fiery one and just start, you know, realize okay, we have to start a fresher. Like, would it be better if they showed signs of life, and when you know five and five and two over the final seven games and went I mean is it like what's the most appealing outcome for this team? Yeah. And it's tough because you know, you always talk about painting, and, you know, players ever wanna take and their their careers are way too short time, really take, but organizationally you can kind of pink. So, you know, I think maybe best case for the long term, the long term view of the Broncos is that they are there. They end up being bad enough that they decide okay? We have to kind of start over finding new coaching finding new head coach new coaching staff possibly new quarterback. If your draft pick is high enough that you can actually find one that you like in the draft. Although it's not like John LA has shown a lot of giving anybody a lot of confidence that he's gonna drop the right one even raise the chance. Again. But I think we don't think maybe the best case long-term scenarios that they finish. Yeah. I mean six and ten maybe five and eleven again. But that you're also getting a lot of play out of your young guys. I think they finally have a rookie class with actually producing, and, you know, like get Portland Sutton and day, Sean Hamilton a lot of reps. Now that now that Maria's Thomas has gone let those guys kind of really grow into their roles that are going to be their future their number one. And number two receivers, you know, see what you can do with Bradley Chubb, you know, experiment with all sorts of different packages and ways that you can let him go and chase the rookie sack record. You know, get see if you can get more growth out of Philip Lindsay and rice Freeman because those are the guys that you're going to be building around long. It's not, you know, as as much as I enjoyed covering some of these guys it's not dome atop Petco, and Chris Harris, and Derek the guys who kind of bring here for the super. Bowl year. Some of those guys were here for the Super Bowl years, but are now thirty an older right in going back to the chargers briefly in terms of how they perform this year, of course, seven to like you said in great shape to make the postseason. Is it fair to stop waiting for them to turn into the chargers who seem to blow every positive opportunity they get they haven't had a game. Like that this year? They're seven to their losses are to the chiefs into the Rams were maybe the two best teams to the three best teams in the league alongside the saints. If they haven't had that game where they blow it with a Utah lead or integrate opportunity and the that raiders game last week. I mean, we'll Brinson was tweeting about it. I felt the same way they looked absolutely flat in the first quarter. They were down three nothing raiders are moving the ball in kind of like it was one of those games. The chargers do lose to to a mediocre team in a situation where they should win. And they didn't they came back and won the game quite comfortably in the long run. But do you still feel that way like they're kind of like waiting to slip on the banana peel, and if you do what do you think it would take to stop worrying about the chargers in that way? Yeah. I think we always going to be waiting. So that just because that's what we've seen for. It's not it hasn't been two or three years. I mean, it's been a very long time that this is what happens with the chargers. And there's always going to be a game that, you know, Philip rivers of going to have that big clunker over game where he's gonna throw four picks, and they're trying to do that's going to happen. It's been I I suppose encouraging that even as their kicker issues persisted through September October. They didn't lose a game. Because of that they where we're last year there were they would have been playoff last year. They had had a more competent kicking situation through or the first half of the season. And that's not going to keep them out of the postseason this year. Knock on everything Bagley Bagley kid badgley. Phase all same things to be the guy that they're going to be able to stick with. They did it a game too late. I think there's you see some little things in their teen and Allen has thrown a fit here. They're they seem to have gotten at rectified. But yeah, I mean, I think the thing that I'm just holding out to see with the chargers. Is it's not this week. It's not even necessarily next week. It's what's going to happen when they play the chiefs because that's really been the the hurdle that they haven't been able to get over. And you know, it's been years. I mean, I think I mentioned that the chargers have owned the Broncos for the last three or four years, but the same exact thing has happened. The chiefs just beat the chargers over and over and over again, and it's happened in LA. It's happened in San Diego. And it certainly has happened at aero had stadium in Kansas City, which is where that that next game is going to be so until the chargers can put together a really good game against the chiefs. I'm gonna still not be not not be pencilling them in for a long playoff run. I'm certainly gonna. I would be shocked if they don't make the playoffs at this point especially looking at kind of but mediocrity of a lot of the rest of the AFC at this point. But I'm not going to get to. I'm not gonna look too far ahead. But in that they can win a big road game in January until I see them go into Arrowhead and went into Semper. Yeah. I mean, there are three road games. After even in December are Steelers chiefs and Broncos. So the breath ac- might not be is pressing it's week seven team. But Steelers and chiefs two teams that they might see in the postseason. I don't know if they have Joey Bosa back I wouldn't count on them winning. But they've been really good purpose for interceptions all season. So like he hasn't had that. I it it still I still think worried about having every single week. But I don't know. I don't know what's gonna take for me to stop being worried. And I still like every week. I'm kind of expecting through the week where they they do collapse in the could happen in this Broncos game. Who knows the Broncos have impressive performances against the Rams on defense. Could sudenly force that against the chargers, we should finish up talking about the Oakland Raiders who again are not. The specially good this year to might holiday. No, they're one eight very under reported story here. The writers are not doing well. In terms of the rest of their sees gonna pay with the guards to the Broncos is the best case scenario that they continue to be terrible. They finish one fifteen two and fourteen and they do end up just finishing with the first overall pick in the draft, or do you think it would be good? If Jon Gruden actually showed some ability to coach some of these younger players into competent performers, and they went for and twelve ended up at the fourth myth. Go for the rest of the way, just burn the whole thing down. I mean, it's so clear that Gruden is focused on twenty nineteen and then especially twenty twenty. But you know, if you if so many of your moves were all about acquiring draft capital first round picks. Make those the best picks that you can get at this point. Because they what are you gonna try to do? It's not like you're trying to you know, save some sort of business opportunity. You know, save face in your home market and get your fans excited, you know, building towards building towards Las Vegas is all about whatever your team is going to be in twenty twenty. And there is very little about this team in twenty teen that's going to be applicable to twenty twenty. So it's not like, you know, their fans sitting there in Las Vegas going over there bad right now. No if you're a Las Vegas raiders fan. It's those people exist if you are hitting me up, I would like to meet you if those people exist, they don't they don't care what the twenty eight teen raiders look like they care about. Who are Joe who are those draft picks going to be? Yeah. A lot of the number one overall pick and how many other high picks that they could possibly get. So. Yeah, I mean, it's just a mess there. So clearly moving beyond this season. And I guess it's just figure out what their cars feature is. That's the other. That's the other big question. Right. There is do you want him to play well show bore signs of life and show that he's a better fit for whatever. Jon Gruden is trying to do on offense. I guess maybe wanna see a little bit of that just to get some clarity about what their quarterback future is. But yeah, I just think this is a, you know, if you're a raider fan, I'm sorry. So rob, you're losing your. I mean, the just just don't even try to win any more games. That's what I was going to finish basking you. I mean, do you think Derek Carr is playing for his job his future with the raiders twenty nineteen over the final seven weeks of the season? Yeah. I think so I mean when you look at the how they could get out from his contract. I he asked to be when he looks around. And sees the the really the guys that he kind of came in with and grew up with that were similar dodger is he was being gone, you know, because of contract reasons or. Lack of a relationship with John or whatever the case might be. I mean, I guess the best thing going for him right now that his agent isn't Joel Siegal. Did you see that interview that Mark Davis gave no last week where he basically he talked to poems? Cheers of ESPN the raiders beat reporter. And he basically said that you know, they knew that since March super the same agent as Khalil now in right? Well, they knew what was coming. So let's just deal now, and it's just really setting up a really bad precedent for any teams that wanna play hardball. With the raiders in the future. But yeah, I mean, I think he has certainly playing for his job. And I would not for no matter how many assurances or you know. Gruden and Mark Davis or regimen Kendy gives about Jarrett car being there guy, if your air car, you cannot feel you should not feel comfortable, and you know, he might wanna have a realtor handy. Just in case. Yeah. Not really for people to lose their job. But it just seems like it's they're bringing the whole thing down. Derek Carr is not going to be in the building as Derek Carr. Play you play for your job. Maybe we're going to be the guy that they're gonna move to Las Vegas with. And they'll finally replace those billboards that we've talked about and put your face on him instead of John gruden's. But look if their car gets cut next season there are going to be four or five teams at least that are backing up attractive signed him. I mean, he's not going to be unemployed very long. There's he's definitely well respected off around the league that if if the raiders do decide to move on he will end up, I think probably a probably a better long-term situation than a complete rebuild and moving cities. So I'm gonna I'm gonna pose the same question to Catherine at the end of the next segment when it comes to the most prominent free agent from the AFC north which is living on bell. What about the what if Dr Carr does leave the Oakland Raiders in twenty? Eighteen which which team do you think their car is lining up for in week one of twenty nineteen? Ooh, that's a good. I mean, there's there's several who clearly need a quarterback in the Jacksonville Jaguars. Definitely need a new starting quarterback. I think the Denver Broncos are going to need a new starting quarterback. And that would be a really fun way to revive the Broncos raiders rivalry that has kind of gone kind of a passive over the last several years, and that would be as far the storyline. That would be incredible. And I think we all know that John woo much rather sign a free agent quarterback and actually dropping. So that would be a storyline storytelling perspective. That would be fantastic. It's not out of the question. Totally possible. Totally plausible. Well Jones, I was a pleasure to have you on the show people want to check out more of your work. Where can they go ahead and do so? Yeah. The athletic dot com and on Twitter at by Lindsey h Jones and thank you for having ladies night your podcast this week. I really appreciate it Levi's afternoon. We're not recording this in the evening. We're never night. Recording this at some random Pinero bread recording this in a studio. Well, I appreciate you reaching out to female NFL reporters and diversifying the media landscape here as well as as the whitest of white men is nice other people on the show who do not look exactly like me once in a while, I try vest, but Lizzy is a pleasure to have you on. We're gonna go break. Your back with more barn will show here in a moment. You know, what's not smart? The way hiring used to be job sites that overwhelming with tons of wrong resumes. Now, there's a smarter way at ZipRecruiter dot com slash Barnwell. And right now, you can try ZipRecruiter for free. That's right free. Just text burn. Well, the two four six eight ten that's be a R N W E L L two two four six eight ten to try ZipRecruiter for free today. Text Barnwell two four six eight ten texting privacy policy in terms and conditions are posted the WWW dot rules dot US. Message and data rates may apply. All right back here on the Bill Barnwell show. I'm Bill Barnwell, the SPN joy. Joining me now, second half of the show here. We're gonna talk some AFC north with Katherine, Terrell ESPN Katherine. How are you? I'm doing good. How are you? I'm good. Now, you are someone who covers the Cincinnati Bengals primarily for us. You cover horse racing as well. Of course, the AFC north as a whole that last time you were on the show. We were sitting here talking about Bengals team that was doing quite well we stewards game was coming up. We were talking about that game. And saying basically that they needed to win that game to be taken seriously since then things have not gone great for the Cincinnati Bengals. So what has happened to closely Bengals to lose their last four games, including that lost Steelers. I guess I wasn't wrong. I said they needed to beat the feelers. And of course, they have one eighteen left, and they blow it so typical big will feelers. It's unbelievable since then it's just been one bad thing after another. I think the defense just took a no side after that game. And they did have a lot of injuries. But injury an excuse for the atrocious defense that followed. I mean, I they I'm trying to remember the order of things I think it was dolphins and Steelers and then chiefs trying to remember who they played next chiefs next book. That's why I don't remember. 'cause it was such a bad game. So you know, they allow five hundred yards to the cheese. They almost blow a big lead to the bus. They get blowed out by the same. I mean, not only blown out us look at that box for what that's awful, you could not believe how awful was they couldn't stop the same at all. It's the same one or score seventy points. They would have so yeah, I'm trying to sum up with happened. But I think really maybe they just the message wasn't getting through from defensive coordinator often to the players. I don't know. But I do know that they've always had at least in training camp. Their weakness has been linebackers and not only earlier linebackers injured. They have forgotten high tackle. So I mean, really if you throw out of problem, they probably have it on that side of the ball right now and Terrel Austin patriots problems with his job this week in the after the fifty one fourteen loss to the saints. Like, you said it. Game or the saints took out drew Brees rest of their guys. Thirty five seven at halftime. Drew Brees forty five seven at the end of the third quarter. After the drew Brees rushing touchdown really the ultimate insult seeing. Drew Brees run a score in even on a snake? Do the Austin firing was deserved. You think it's actually going to improve things with how the Bengals are playing on the defensive side of the ball. I yes. Because the defense was so that is not only just bad. I mean there store Klay bad. I've had the pleasure of covering several historically bad defense is this is actually number three. The two thousand twelve New Orleans Saints who gave up seven thousand forty two yards and NFL record that the Bengals are on pace to break. Then of course, the two thousand fourteen saints who I think a loud a record for half a rating against them resulted. Rob Reiner getting fired every one of those instances the deepens. According coordinator, got fired. Just if if you're looking at it, and you're realizing there's no way to fix this. As we currently are did you have to make change. And I think that they just don't that. There was no way to fix the road. They were going down. I it's a shame. I really like tear often as a person I think the players liked him out the person, he's a hard guy. Now like you feel for him. But the Biggles are in a position where they can still salvage the season. And they're by no means out of it. If they beat the ravens they're doing. Okay. They haven't easy second half schedule. They can make the playoffs, but they had to stop. Leading. So I think that in that sense. It is it is warranted. But I'm wondering how it's gonna look with Marvin Lewis going place now. Well, Marvin Lewis is calling the plays, and he has a friend along the right someone that we talked about earlier this year as someone who might end up making his way to Cincinnati. And that is you Jackson who was fired by the Browns and sparkman brought in by the Bengals based on something. I don't think it's his track record in Cleveland. So why do you think Jackson ended up in Cincinnati again after coaching there? Previously in what role? Do you think? He's actually going to play over there manger of the twenty eighteen season for Cincinnati. Well, almost literally the mid he got fired all the writers and Cincinnati were asking when Hugh Jackson gonna be back. It's actually kind of funny mowing Twitter. I think three of us both the same joke as I want like get ready for Hugh Jackson. I mean, it was just obvious. He and Marvin. Louis are very close. They talk almost every week that's more than I talk to my friends, and I'm what twenty or thirty years thirty years. We're gonna Marvin Lewis age myself. So they're incredibly close they call each other. They say they're like brothers. So it's not surprising that Lewis bring back if you trust the guy more than he trusts, really anybody. And they thing is now that he's calling the defense plays. If he's addressing the deepens. He's a completely missing what's going on offense. And he said that happened to the game against the saints. He had to have his backed her and trying to talk to the defense. He didn't know what was going on the field. So basically Jackson can be down the sideline in kind of help with that. And Lewis made it clear that Jackson was not helping with the offense. Nicki wanted us to know he's not here to meddle and Bill. Lasers offense, which that's a big deal the old that current coordinators there the old ones hovering over shoulder you wanna create. Staps engine. So Lewis said he'd be doing analytics you'd be helping with the defense from an office hop into perspective, and then another voice on the sideline. But you know, really we'll see how it plays out. Because Jackson was like, of course, all the office, whatever you want. So it's kind of seems like no one really knows. What's actually going to be doing? Yeah. I mean when you tell me you Jackson is going to do analytics based on what he did with the Browns. Yeah. A tough sell for me. I don't think pump. Sure you Jackson. Learn some stuff all he was in Cleveland. Yeah. I don't think he's not a smart person. I think you have to be a smart person to get this far in the NFL, not not the first person, I would look towards in terms of analytics in terms of improving my team, but we will see certainly still plenty of the season to go in Cincinnati. The team the Bengals are playing this week in usually important game for their their chances in the playoff race in the AFC or is both ravens at Baltimore this week and their team that is also in some sort of flex with Joe flacco possibly having a hip injury after the Steelers loss and reef nine there were reports even before the game. Actually, there were reports that John Harbaugh his job could be in jeopardy. Heading into the by Ricky has not been fired. He's still there. Joe flacco may not be playing because of that hip injury. So do you think at this point John Harbaugh is coaching for his job over the second half of the season? Given what you're hearing giving the tea leaves about the reports that are leaking out into the media. I would have to think so because the ravens don't operate like that does that no one thinks Marvin Melissa's cooking for his job two different teams. I would think so because right now I see a team that's regressing. They've lost three strata. They should be more. I mean, they should be better team than their record says they are actually at one point at the beginning of the season people were saying the ravens were better than the bagels. Even though the Bengals beat them. I mean there was like a two weeks period. They looked really good. And then I I don't know what happened. But yeah, I definitely think it's kinda maker break game for both teams because the raven flus they're out. I think I mean, I think they would have to be the Bengals lose. They're not out. But it would. I mean, they'd be walking incredibly thin line. They've really need to win this game. So Harbaugh maybe coaching job. Flacco maybe on the verge of losing his job. But in Cincinnati. It doesn't really appear that way except for of course. Austin? Yeah. I mean, do you think with Joe flacco, you know, this is a guy who played through a twenty c l look like not only did he play through tornado seal that it was more. Like he had like a fly on his knee. When he got injured in that game a couple years ago. He's sort it was like, oh, it's a nuisance. But it didn't seem like he had a twenty Yellen the way that other players tear their ACO. It just seemed like he do he wasn't really aware of the injury. So I mean, you do he can play through most injuries at a hip injuries, not necessarily going to bother him in the way that other players might be bothered by hip injury. But just in terms of his performance. I mean, don't you think it's time or maybe I'm being aggressive. But do you think it's time for them to just try Lamar Jackson just out of a sense of? Hey were four and five or playing for our season. We have to try something different just to spark this offense. That hasn't been very effective for Jesus. A few years now. Yeah. Mostly that's about ACL's. There's so weird. It's so weird up players can just walk off. And look totally fine. I think they don't always. Some of them say they feel it right away. But I think some of them don't, you know, when Karkare Lawson the Bengals store, his ACL and Adam Schefter reported that and I saw him the locker room and two days later, and I look at someone I said without wrong. This is walk into the locker room like totally normal. Everything was fine. But me Lawson works out like a fiend and like take takes care of his body. So like in a nominally, but Bucko is is tough. I mean tougher than anyone gives them credit for it. Just like you said he plays through that. However, I think it's do or die for the ravens. I think they have this first round pick who is expected to succeed Block O one day. Right. So I mean, yeah. Why don't you try clearly nothing else? It's been working. I I mean, I think it you have maybe I think it's a better deal to try him then to put Griffin and if you're not going to play flacco. So I mean, you gotta see what you've got right. So yeah, I would definitely play him. And honestly the. Bagels. Haven't had a great track. Record was rookie quarterback's the lately. So I don't think it's so cut and dry. That's rookie plays and the Bengals win. I think considering they can't tackle right now. He could give them some trouble. He plays. Yeah. And I mean, you mentioned the Bengals defense starting the show Terrell Austin. Of course was just fired. This is a pretty friendly matchup for Lamar Jackson and doesn't get a lot tougher. It's the Bengals this week. It's the raiders at home next week in the raiders are, of course, a mess of a totally different enterprise. When it comes to John gruden's defense there he's at the falcons, the defense has been a message not likely to win that game necessarily, but a really ugly defense in the same thing in Kansas City. The following we great team, but a pretty mediocre defense. And then the bucks we thought it might be even worse than than the Bengals on defense so far this year. And that's how bad it's been. So I mean, it's five defenses that you would figure if you're ever going to integrate the young quarterback have you ever gonna give him the opportunity to succeed with? Eight veteran team you're gonna have to bring him in at some point. Why not this friendly stretch of games? Right. Because what I mean, people might just agree with me here. But what you have to lose. You've the last three you have to win this game. And if you don't like I said, you might be out. So throwing try everything try this young quarterback. And see if you get a shot watching live performance from him. I, yeah, I just you know, coke is probably don't think this way. But I I'm thinking this way, I'm thinking they should see what they got. And hey, if they beat the Bengals and suddenly. It's like all right. Maybe maybe this guy can lead our team. And honestly teams don't have a lot of film on him right now to have another advantage. They have by playing him. I think. Yeah. The whole by week sort of integrate some new concepts take stuff that maybe you've been using play by play basis here for maybe the series era receivers they're red zone. Snap your red zone snap there and making it a more focal point if your offense, and I think from John harbach perfect. If you mentioned having nothing to lose, I think that's true not only in the context of this season. But also in the context of his career with the ravens because this would be if they missed the plows and they're four and five right now. This would be the fourth season in a row what they have missed the playoffs. That's not happen since the first four years of the franchise from ninety six to ninety nine. Now. I would assume John harbor is coaching for his job over the remainder of the season. I mean, he let's say he. They are eight or nine and seven they just miss out on the playoffs. Like, they did a year ago where they're nine and seven and missed out in weeks teen, do you think this is the point where maybe they should consider making a change or do you think it's if he makes the playoffs he stays and he should stay. I think it would depend or what the team will look like at that point. And I think if like I said Jackson is the guy and he he beat the Bengals or whatnot. And the team looks in through even if they ultimately make I mean, don't make the playoffs or acts in the first round. Then you might think. All right. Maybe we should give another year. But if they went dead or back in they just don't look like they're going anywhere. And that's when you should make a change. I think the bagels kind of felt that way. Like they felt right at the team's not getting any better. Maybe we'll make a change regarding Lewis. I don't know how much they thought that. We all know how they feel about Louis. But yeah, you just wanna see your team going forward. You don't want to be sale. I mean, and you're right. They have it. How I mean? Gosh. Do you think ravens based on you know, their history and thing they have had some success? They won the Super Bowl in two thousand twelve. But before that, I mean since two thousand eight that's their only good postseason. I mean, it's kinda crazy, right? Like, it is I realize numbers were that bad. Yeah. I mean, first half of Harbaugh's rain. He's been eleven years, and I believe in the job five playoff appearances two conference championships won a Super Bowl the last six years, including twenty team as a year here one playoff appearance. They made they wanna one playoff game. They beat the Steelers. I believe in two thousand fourteen in lost the patriots on that game where they were up in the patriots then decided to invents a new offense with the unbalanced line and came back to win that game thirty five thirty one. But I mean, this is a it's been a pretty rare pretty a pretty ugly performances for the ravens a team where again, even though they've been eight nine seven. Ten and six eight eight and four of those years only one playoff appearance info season. So I mean, it's it's it's maybe you're spoiled. Maybe if you're a ravens fan, you're just you're kind of spoiled by all the success you've had. But I mean, that's still the reality that you're into it. And it might be a situation where with John Harbaugh could kind of be like Andy Reid and Philadelphia where even though he's a good coach, it might just be time to make the change because you're listening to the same voice gear after year after year and John harbor Mico somewhere else and be a great coach over comes in might even be a someone who can sort of revitalize the franchise with a fresh foist. And I say that of course, knowing that I'm talking to you covering the Bengals with Louis. I wrote a column today about the ten most sort of exciting coaching opportunities that might come up over the next year. And I didn't include the Bengals because I don't think Marvin Lewis is going to lose his job. Do you think there is a scenario where at the end of the season Marvin Lewis does move on from that head coaching spot in Cincinnati? I don't because I they he they gave him a two year contract. And I gave all this is the two year contract. Right. And I would be very surprised if they're gonna pay all those coaches not to coach I mean, honestly that is the reality of how they operate. I just would be very surprised and honestly bagels band wart super doozy. Asks about Hugh Jackson returning because they think that if Marvin Lewis steps down Hugh Jackson could become the next coach, right? There nightmare at this point. You know, it was more of the same like, how could you? How could the fans get behind that? You know, you replace Marvin Lewis with a guy that wants three games in Cleveland, but they're actually legitimately worried about that. And it's not a crazy scenario considering he was one maybe that head coach and waiting behind Louis. Absolutely. I mean, do you think the Bengals organization is aware of that? Or cares about that in terms of the fan perception about the Jackson plausible succession plan. I don't know. I think the bangles always thought why no not thought that Mike Brown used to say even the summary said if you if you win the fans will come back. Well, dangles have been waiting in the fans haven't come back. Then Dedi them against the saints was. Really empty, and can you blame them? Nobody knew they weren't going to beat the saints. They they didn't want to go because they don't wanna see their team get blown out it. That's actually weird thing where the team has a winning record. But I think in their minds they're trying to send a message to Mike Brown that they would like to see the organization change and to give the organization credit in many ways they have before last year they've never fired coordinator in in the middle seasons ever. So you know, they are making steps forward. Ben as long as Marvin Lewis there. It's hard for fans to to really get behind. It. Just you know, they're ready to see some sort of change. I mean, it's it's a weirdly frustrating thing where where I think this is a fan base. And I could be wrong that I sort of been anticipating Marvin Lewis movie on for years now and been excited about what the future might look like after Marvin Lewis, and this kind of feels like well, we're just sort of getting more Marvin Lewis with the Jackson replacement. Is there a is there either a coach or a sort of coachwork a style of coach or a certain level of skill set? You think bingles fans would would sort of be the most excited for Sean McVeigh? Which is not available. The you wanna see the next Sean McVeigh. I think after all of these years having having some sort of offense of minded coach would just be such a release to fans because the baby was played very conservative for the most part. I think a lot of people would say sometimes they play not to lose this year. They had it looks good in the second half. Now, they're a ton of reasons for that. But playing not to lose could be one of them. And it's hard as a fan. I assume when you watch a team like the saints come in, and they don't play not to Luther actually probably too aggressive sometimes, but Payton lives and dies by that owns that in its pure football fan. It's fun to watch knowing if it's like four and four he's gonna go for it. But the bangles aren't gonna do that. Because they don't think the odds favorites, it's two different styles. So. Ten is ramble. I guess I think that the fans would love to have a young offense of minded coach come in. Even though the division is so defense oriented, I just I think that that would be the kind of thing they would want about in comeback for. Yes. So the top of the division now six two and one Pittsburgh Steelers. We were having of course, as we seem to do every year that conversation at the beginning of the season. They're in trouble. They haven't figured it out. They started one two and one honestly should've lost the Browns and the opener newly lost the Becca nearest and week. Three could have been Owen for to start the year. But they were not informed since then forty one seventeen over the falcons twenty eight twenty one over the Bengals as we talked about earlier three three teen over the Browns twenty sixteen over the ravens and then fifty two twenty one absolute will being of the Carolina Panthers last Thursday night. I mean is there any reason to think the Steelers are not going to finish? Atop this division, and as the either possibly even the number one. But my the number two or number three seed in the AFC. It would be hard to believe that would be the case. I don't think I'm looking at their second half schedule. I mean, they do have. Well, actually, I mean, they do have a couple of tough game. They still have to play the patriots saints and charge or however, they also had the Jaguars aren't playing. Well, it's the Broncos, and they have the Bengals last and by that point it could be locked up. So we know it's not a lot because those are some tough games. But the bingles hasn't been able to showers them. I don't know what's going on with the ravens. I don't. I don't know if they can come back from the downside. And you know, they're going to take care of the Browns. Actually, they're done playing the Browns. And and so yeah, I mean at this point. Yeah. You would assume the Steelers are the winners of the AFC north. There's a lot of football left to be played. I'm not trying to be like diplomatic here. I I I'm just looking at those particular three games and thinking, oh, there's actually are. Kinda tough much tougher than the big second half schedule. We talked about the Steelers or nothing ravens I should say and sort of the heightened expectations for success there in how missing the playoffs even with good records might cost John Harbaugh his job there. I don't think Mike Tomlin is going to get fired. I can't imagine a scenario where he would he would lose his job with the students. This is a team that it's fair to say their their fan base is expectations are to win the Super Bowl every single season. And he looked back since they lost in the Super Bowl for the Packers twenty ten so eight years ago at this point twenty eleven they lose to the Broncos in the Tim Tibo game, which seems like it was a lifetime ago, but seven really does feel like that band. It's a ways away twenty twelve twenty thirteen they missed the playoffs. Twenty fourteen. They lose to the ravens at home twenty fifteen. They beat the Bengals in one of the craziest playoff games have ever seen. And then lose to the Broncos without Antonio Brown. Twenty sixteen they get to the AFC championship game in lose to the patriots. Handley 2017 lose at home to the Jaguars. This is a team that I mean, they have not been to Super Bowl aviators. They have not been really close in eight years of one game against the patriots where they got blown out by by nineteen points. I mean, do you think it's fair for St Francis. Look at that, and sort of have that expectation of okay, if we don't make it to the Super Bowl, it's a bummer season that we need to think about making changes or I mean, is it just sort of the reality of fans at this point. I think considering all the talent they've had on the team the last few years it's fair to ask why they didn't do more. And it's there's two ways to look at it that team has big personality. Yes, you can either say common does a great job rating them in or you can say common. Let them go too far because as someone who covered them in the playoffs last year. I felt like it was all about remastered the patriots when we play the patriots just all that nonsense. And it's like, hey, you're playing the Jaguars, and they already beat you. So then they go out and just lay it egg. And you start to think. All right. What did they prepare for this game? What what happened? Why do they look so bad and this band? I would be pretty frustrated considering all the talent dot team had. However, it's kind of a built in excuse to say we lost our. Linebacker, and he's not really he's not easily replaceable. Right. And that's still kind of continues to this day. And you also don't have one of your best off into players. So I think you can make excuses. I just know last year was probably pretty frustrating that it just didn't appear to take seriously a team that had already beaten them and the way they lost is probably frustrating. But yeah, I mean, it's it's like clockwork every regular season. They look fantastic, or at least towards the end of it. And then lose at some point in the playoffs and with this team in particular. I'm not sure how far they'll go kinda kinda hard to say. I mean, I don't know. Do you think that defense to to take them there? That's the tough part is is that it's hard to believe that their defense is going to hold up, you know against the chiefs for a game night. Granted they beat the chiefs pretty much in every meaningful game. They've had. But we saw what happened earlier this year. The chiefs blew them out. It was the final score being closed. But the the the chiefs were way ahead for a good chunk of the contest. And this was only got close within the final two minutes of the contest. I I'm I'm certainly skeptical that their defense can hold up for three. I don't know if anyone's defenses though, at this point, I think it might just be the best possible offense. And we saw what happened with no the students against the Panthers on Thursday. Like, they were absolutely terrifying. For for that game finish appear in terms of the Levy on bell situation, obviously has been talked about ad nauseam. I feel about it. I wanna know how you feel about it. Are you surprised it ended up the way ended up? I mean, I guess for me like I always kind of figured we'll figure it out like he'll come back. Even if it doesn't come back for the beginning of the season. We'll come back and like week to week three. And if not then I'll come back and return Rica Levin like he'll just he'll be on the roster. Come the December income the postseason and he's not he's not coming back. It's not happening. I mean, are you are you shocked eating something that other players are. To do in their situations in the future. I am surprised. I even drafted him. Overall. What am I? Well, actually as soon as I heard the news. I think I picked up Connor. But I did that. Because in my mind, I was thinking hold outs never last. They always come joking collusion covered NFL's two thousand two which isn't that long? But long enough that you've seen the threat of hold out and it just never happened. So I mean, you can Meyer him for sticking to his gun. But personally to me it just feels like he's getting bad advice. I just don't know how this is a spy nationally good solution to what he wants to accomplish. I understand not wanting to get hurt. Totally get that part. I mean, I understand feeling like maybe the team used too much, and I he has a chance of getting hurt. And then having nothing that's fourteen and a half million dollars not getting backs. You have get some megadeal from another team. I mean, maybe maybe he will maybe they're under the table talks. And they Artie have a place in mine. Mind. And that's why this all happened. The wait did. But I still just keep thinking you're never gonna get the fourteen and a half million back, and how much could you get guaranteed after a year off football make up for that. I mean, I don't know what you think I might be totally wrong. It just doesn't seem like the most financially savvy decision to me. But you know, it will play out in a few months, and I'm actually like really intrigued to see what the market is like and what happens. Okay. So finish appear trill week one of the twenty nineteen and I fell season Levy, I'm bell is about to get his first carry of the campaign which teams uniform is he wearing. Montana the most likely contenders. I'm assuming that yet. I I was gonna I think we can rule out the Cincinnati Bengals Deirdre. Yeah. You can rule that out. I don't think they would pay him what he wants. But the Jin position I think that's been tossed around as a contender. I don't know exactly. How much cap space? They have I can tire. It's a lot of camps. They can certainly afford to bring him in. And they would I think they've made slashes before. I I was ruled out the dangle before you they already have Joe mixing, and I don't think mixing bell like each other very much anyway. So I think you're happy with what have there, but? Yeah. I mean, the same already had their guy the same type of type of team that would definitely do that. But they don't need to who needs a running back really badly. I mean, there's not that many teams the raiders you would figure takes one takes one. Yeah. They're raiders. That's intriguing possibility. I mean, no there in total we build now. But are you going to invest if you're in rebuild note or get invest all that money in a running back doesn't seem? He doesn't seem them lies to raise haven't done much. Why this year? That's anyway. Thanks. I wouldn't count on them doing the smart thing the Niners. Maybe if they cut your McCain and could be in the discussion, the bucks, we'll have a lot of cap space and could certainly use a running back with paid-in Barbara struggling there. Ronald Jones sort of not launching so far in his pro career. It'll be really fascinating dolphins doesn't have necessarily. But they do a lot of things like this. I could see them going after a star player. It's gonna be really interesting. I think it's going really fast any market. And like you said it's only gonna take one team to sort of think he is the guy that's going to really help them. Get over the top make the postseason or help take some of the pressure off their young quarterback. Somebody is doing to talk themselves into Levy on bell. We just don't think it's going to be Cincinnati Bengals Catherine please tell people they can check out more of the stuff you do for us. You can follow me on Twitter at cat underscore, Terrel or. On ESPN dot com. Mendes, catherine. Oh is a pleasure. I'm sorry that we sent the Bengals into a tailspin last time, we talked hopefully say spur them into a winning streak this time around. Thanks much coming on the show. Thanks as always having me. All right. Thanks much to my guest today. Lindsay tunes of the. Katherine Tyrrell ESPN audio coming next week here on the Bill. Geico presents eyewitness interviews with inanimate objects. This is Belinda Collins live on the scene of a recent lightning storm here to describe the event TV tray. I was watching football and holding a plate of Meatloaf, win come a bolt of lightning slams into the apartment blowing out the TV around sound anything. You could have done to help my. I'm a foldable table, not an electric TV. Trae can't help you in a lightning storm. But the co insurance agency can help you get covered for personal property damage. Go to Geico dot com to see how a forcible renter's insurance can be.

chiefs Rams Broncos AFC chargers NFL Los Angeles Hugh Jackson Bengals Cincinnati Denver Steelers Derek Carr Bill Barnwell Denver Broncos Marvin Lewis raiders Todd Gurley Lindsey h Jones Lindsay Jones Lindsay
Wierd Washington

The Truth Is Somewhere: A Conspiracy Theory Podcast

35:26 min | 2 years ago

Wierd Washington

"Uh-huh. Hey there. Welcome back to the truth is somewhere dudes. Did you watch ninja turtles recently? No. I just wanted to mix it up. So I decided I'd try some different. What would you guys think it's been mixed up? It's been mixed. Meghan. What are we radically talking about today? We're going to radically talk about some of. Hunted and conspiracy type places right here at our home state or Washington right here in Washington, Washington DC. No, no, no in DC. So I actually actually I was going to talk about this one place. But then as I was researching it I was afraid that I wouldn't have enough information for us to talk about Nicole episode. So that I started looking for more places and the best part of all of this is that most of these places are within fairly easy driving distance for us. So we are going to go visit them, and we're probably going to make some cool video stuff for our patron. Sounds like a patron contents after visiting those. So keep an eye on social media because we will alert you when we go to visit the places. Without further ado, the first place we're gonna talk about for the one that I was initially looking at a it's called the afterglow vista. And it's in Roche harbor on San Juan island just a fairy right away. In eighteen eighty six Yoahan's Stafford McMillan acquired controlling interest in the rich lime deposits nearby Roche harbor, and he started Roche harbor lime and cement company, which became the largest producer of calcium lime in the west and the largest employer in San Juan county. So then he built rose harbor the town as a company town, including cottages for married, employees, general store and company offices. Okay. And in eighteen ninety two Methodist church was built and also served as a schoolhouse for the children of the companies, please. Okay. It wouldn't be the eighteen hundreds and the United States that a little racism. Yeah. We're all trying to get to something really quick. Right. So there was also a Japan town harbor and on the south end of the cove that served as a living place from Japanese who worked for the company as cooks waiters, domestic servants and gardeners. Oh, okay. Yeah. So. It's funny that we can have Chinatown still. But as soon as you call Japan town, it's racist. No. I think that at that point in time, it was kind of a racist thing because it was like, oh, we're gonna put them over the I think the context of it is what is actually actually racist. Not not the fact that there is a separation because sometimes that's Parisian is warranted. Like, I think Chinatown is a wanted thing. It's kind of tourist attraction. Sure. But I think that initially probably wasn't probably wasn't wasn't. It was. No, no. You guys. Go over there. Yeah. Yeah. I I. Can't apologize for our four. We'd be forefathers. But you know, what? I mean. Well, I guess that term still does go. Yeah. Just normally it's talking we're talking specific forefathers. Some sad thing is those workers the Japanese workers were buried in the Roche harbor cemetery. But they were marked with wooden MERCOSUR's. Also, those are gone and they've long since rotted away. So they don't even know how many graves are actually not cemetery. A while there. How many unmarked graves I'm willing to bet they could take some sort of echo location or radar out there now and figure out how many bodies they have their. I'm sure it would take some time. Yeah. But I'm willing to bet that if someone was very interested in wealthy they could figure it out. Sure. Okay. So that's that's the sad thing. Mcmillan built a twenty two room three storey hotel, named hotel to Harrow after an early Spanish explorer. Okay. The hotel was used as a place to stay for customers of the Roche harbor lime and cement company or other guests of MacMillan, and he attributed his success to his religion Methodist, obviously, there's trivia his family and the fraternal organizations to which he belonged he and his brother were brother were both members of sigma think it's Chee, but it might be by fraternity at university. And he and his son were both thirty second degree, Masons. Mcmillan also became involved in politics and was the chair of the San Juan. Republican party and counted Theodore Roosevelt among his friends fun. Yeah. President Roosevelt even stayed in the hotel. It was room to a the hotels now known as Roach harbor hotel and room to a is known as the presidential suite. Now is it kind of. Silly trivial facts that we hold onto as people. Oh, the presence hidden tomb to a MU. Cares. Like, sometimes sometimes when we go over these conspiracies or you read about a ghost story or something like that. And you're like, oh, well, the person stayed in this room. I'm like great. Interesting to history. And that's all I know. I'm not saying that it's not, and I'm not saying that often times in those ghost stories that the room number isn't important to the story or to the circumstances rather. Isn't it interesting that people are willing to go like dig through log books and things like that to determine that information? And I can understand if you have some sort of stake in it, or maybe you're just genuine genuinely very interested. It's just otherwise, very trivial. Yeah. When there's lots of information that's lost for a long time that we didn't hold onto that wasn't as trivial. So in nineteen thirty six MacMillan built of mausoleum for his family. He do in nineteen thirty six at cost thirty thousand dollars and not seems like a lot of money for Muslim the outset. But when you actually compare that to how much it would be now, it's like nuts to five hundred forty thousand dollars in two thousand eighteen dollars for a mausoleum for his family five hundred forty thousand dollars in two thousand eighteen dollars. Yeah. Right. Doesn't eighteen dollars. Yeah. So just the inflation. Okay. Like the way you were saying was like two thousand eighteen dollars. No, no, no. Yeah. It would cost five hundred forty thousand dollars into day. Okay. But it was thirty thousand dollars then the mausoleum has called afterglow vista, and it's named so because of the way the light plays off the beach at sunset afterglow vista is not a normal Muslim because like normally you think of a mausoleum, and it's like. In Buffy, where they're like little enclosed like sheds, basically. But they're like concrete sounds like angels on them or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. More like a crypt? Yes, crept. So this is very open big an open. It's it's actually it's beautiful McMillan had it designed to incorporate elements drawn from the philosophies of the Masons the knights Templar. So the African vista sits upon a raised platform and visitors climbed three flights of stairs to get to that platform. And the first set contains three steps symbolizing the three ages of man, childhood adulthood, and old age. Okay. The second flight contains five steps symbolizing the five orders of classical architecture Tuscan Doric, Ionic Carinthian and composite and the third flight of stairs has seven steps. Representing the seven liberal arts and sciences grammar rhetoric. Dialectic, arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. I didn't know a lot of those things rispler it up the way they were. At the top of the stairs is the platform that contains seven thirty foot high Tuscan columns that are put in a circle to represent Solomon's. Temple columns are connected by a ring with flirt ille- worked in seven times into the design. What's clearly? It's a fancy French. Floor life, flourish. Okay. It's a shame the French shape. Okay. And those were put in the arches, you said are put into okay, okay? One of the columns on the west side is intentionally broken symbolize, the work left unfinished upon our deaths, and the mausoleum was initially supposed to be topped with a twenty thousand dollar bronze dome bearing a multi cross murmurs that MacMillan fraternity the dome was either scrapped to save money. Or was scrapped to leave the mausoleum opened a nature, there's not a general consensus on that. Maybe he decided that he didn't wanna almost double with just the top. I mean, it sounds like there's a lot of attention to detail a lot into this. Like, there was a lot of thought and a lot of. I don't know about. I'm sure care was implemented as well. That's that's a lot. That is a lot that that is that just like half a page. You got written there about finished on that yet? More. There's more. So in the middle of the platforms. That's large limestone table surrounded by six limestone chairs this represents the traditional gathering place of a family and as a symbol for reunion after death and each chairs inscribed with the name of MacMillan family member who's cremated ashes are interred in the seats of the chairs or they had themselves. Put in the chairs. Yes, it's a Muslim. Okay. Sure. People can sit on their grave. Yes. So visitors report something the president's of spirits near the table. And those who sit in the chairs feel uneasy. Here's my ass. Deal about people sitting in the chairs and feeling uneasy because I was thinking about it like, oh, man. I want to go here so bad. We absolutely are gonna go there because I think it looks cool as help what I was like I don't know that I would wanna sit in one of those chairs because I feel like it's mad disrespectful. Like, maybe you feel uneasy because you put your ass on someone's. Because it's being hunted. But like you had the audacity to come put your fucking. But. On somebody's final Russ low. I mean, how many times do people lean especially movies and stuff? But how how how awkward it be? If you were to say see someone in cemetery leaning up against a gravestone. Go do that as a tourist attraction and sit on some of attraction but like teenagers hanging on cemetery. No, that's true. That's true on. I think it's I I just think that the reason you feel uneasy as because you know, that you're putting your gun on someone's final resting. I don't know. I think the reason someone might feel uneasy as because maybe you're you're suddenly aware of the fact that you're surrounded and sitting on top of death made. And maybe you become more self aware of yourself for a moment. And for most people have you become a little bit more self aware of yourself. You become a little bit more uneasy. Sure. So jury's out on whether or not I will sit in a chair when we go visit this place. I really I feel like it's disrespectful. But I also like. I don't know taken take an extra an extra as if I take it in the first place beano that day. Yeah. Making sure I got some of that or not, you know, maybe I'm maybe I'm trying to guess out the spirits to get them to communicate. Maybe sure let's go with that. Well, I mean, this seems a little ridiculous. I'm going ridiculous, Cheryl. That's fine. Those who have sat upon the table who felt hands push them off. And I li- I giggled to myself. I was I was writing this part of the notes because I remember my mother telling me tables glasses not for little girls asses. All I can think. All I can think is there's like some like awesome mom like pushing someone off the table like your fair share for God's sake, sit on my dead son for God's sake. Sit at the dinner table. Some visitors have reported seeing members of the McMillan family seated around the table in laughing much, happier thing than getting pushed off the table. And supposedly if you visit afterglow vista on a rainy day. No rain will fall on you. If you sit in one of the chairs looks like we live in Washington, we'll have to for a rainy day, right? Just to sit in the chair and get rained on unfortunately. So I don't know what it's gonna look like when we get there. Because a couple of the articles. I read said that there's been some vandalism lately. And let one of the chairs has been completely destroyed in the sue other like missing their backs. So I don't know if they have gone and replaced those things Corentin it off. I don't know. So we're going to go check it out and see what we can find. And that was afterglow vista. And I was right. I could not get enough out of that for a whole episode. So I'm glad I researched other things like guess. Yeah. I mean, maybe next time start looking at poltergeists and what they mean. I don't know. Well, moving on. And we're going just outside of Olympia. Where there are hundreds of grass covered mounds peppering several hundred acres. They are called the Meema mounts. And though there have been decades of research into what caused them each hypothesis has either but proven wrong or is not like super strong. Okay. So scientists know that the type of soil found in the mount developed after the ice age glaciers begin to retreat, some sixteen thousand years ago, the first known documentation of the mountains in eighteen forty one when captured captain captain Charles Wilkes pretty much just stumbled upon them. They're all about six feet tall and thirty feet wide. So they're pretty pretty big Wilkes assumes that they were berry amounts, which makes sense and dug into a few will need to find nothing, but dirt and rocks. The upper sheila's tribe has a folk tale regarding how the mountain came to be actually really like this. So a tribal member named Thrush refuse to bathe or cleanse her face for fear that something bad would happen to earth and people essentially how. Her until she finally gave in washed her face. And after this it rained so hard that the world flooded, and when the water receded the prairie land had taken on the shape of waves. So that's their that's their little legend about why these mounts came to be. But like the people were like, oh, they must be native American period grounds. And like all of the tribes around that area were like. This is what we were told. It is like this is our like Mudgene legend about it. And the most generally accepted hypothesis is that the mounds were created by pocket gophers and the mountains do contain vast networks of rodent tunnels, but the creation of the mounts by gophers has not been definitively proven. And no one is even sure if the mound came for store, the gophers came I like, the gophers were just like, oh, what a convenient place to make a home. Yeah. That would make sense. So today you can visit the mountains national natural end work. This is what it looks like, oh, it's looks like. Goosebumps. It's a lot. So there's an interpretive trail, and you can go on a like a tour. So you're saying each one of those mount yeah. Thirty feet wide that that makes about sensing the houses that are whether those are those are pretty big that's bigger than I was thinking with the trees. But when you put the house that house right over there next to it. And by the way, for our listeners, we're going to put these images in our show notes. So make sure to take a look at those. If you're interested or give a quick search and you'll probably find we're talking about who actually looks like someone owns property with a couple of those mounds. Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of it a lot of it is owned by the government and sure. I would think if I owned property with those mounds. I mean, they've got a good ten fifteen maybe mounts right there dig one of those suckers up. I mean, they've several of them have excavated and they've never found anything. But dirt. Yeah. You know, what it's probably just some crazy by chance natural phenomenon that caused the earth to to do that. Maybe there's some tectonic shifting somewhere around caused the dirt on shop. That is I didn't wanna get too much into this of it. But one of the other theory is is that like when during the ice age one place where shifting it pushed ice up like I was underneath the ground is up which caused the the ground to split. So you'd have these big splits and then when the ice melted the ground settled back down informed mounts from where the ice used to be the theories, but none of that has been proven. And everybody's kinda like. I don't know. So obviously when you go on, I don't know, there's aliens. Well, unlike most. Liquids transitioning into a solid water actually expands. So I think it would make sense that I don't know how dense these mounds are. And I don't know if you touch on that at all how dense these mounds are compared to the rest of the land. And I would imagine over, you know, sixteen thousand years or however long these mounds of been here, they are probably about the same densities everything else, you'd think you'd think right because over time gravity is gonna pull those suckers back in but with some irregular freezing. And with the ice age retreating. Well, yeah, I guess retreating okay form for that. With glaciers retreating north. I can't imagine that maybe there is some freezing and thawing and freezing and thawing that could cause some some points to expand. And maybe there's just something particular about the soil in this location that isn't in most other areas, maybe there is. Other occurrences of these mounds, but they're in forests, and we just aren't ever. Nobody's upon them. Yet. An even if we do stumble upon them. We're not going to realize that even there because it's covered in trees and bushes. That's true. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's not. But what's the what makes this? Are there ghosts involved to know? It's obviously aliens, obviously when you get stuff like this. It's not obviously an Indian burial ground. Right. Like, if you're not going to go with that trope because the native American tribes are like, oh, yeah. That's us. Just isn't them. And no one can really tell you to finish. Really? Where they came from or how they came to be. People automatically assume any LIAM's aliens. Yeah. Absolutely. So that's why this isn't including one I think is kind of interesting. But also because people are like, oh, it must be made Bailey. There's no other possible. Shen because there was not yet a. A definitive this is what caused it people. Go wild and go. Okay. Well lands. Well, you know, maybe there's some alien ship and some dad teaching his son how to how to drive and use the tractor beam. And he's out in the middle of the field, and he's like being up like point year up. No, okay pointed here, not no point here. They're raising the earth from down below to stop just enough. You know that the dirt gets lifted up right there creates amount. And he's just like all right? We're gonna do this one hundred times until we don't have to till I feel comfortable that you can do this without me sitting next to you're gonna operate that tractor beam. And I don't want you to practice on any cows because those are precious, and we need to make sure that when you pick up a cow. You don't pick up half a cow. Yeah. Fair. Okay. I like your theory. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Okay. So that other place we can go. Visit. That's that's a little bit further for us. We'd have to probably probably wouldn't be a day trip. But it's doable. It's doable. We're gonna go back north because I've parenting. I don't know how to stay in the same juggle geographic region because north for this south against the next one. Do you do Washington Washington? It's now nineteen twelve. The northern state asylum in hospital was opened on six hundred acres and Cedra Willie Washington into this. We have been to them we're going to go back to it though. In the early days. The hospital is known to provide excellent care and therapeutic work programs, including farming. But in nineteen fifty Dr Charles H Jones took over the asylum and everything changed. Dr Jones was a big believer and techniques being perfected by one. Dr Walter Freeman the inventor of the trans orbital lobotomy. Oh, the bottom are great. The real good for you. So Jones learned from a master so to speak and lobotomies and electroshock therapy things. We now know today are are Barrick were performed at northern state hospital and make no mistake. Like, this isn't something that was unique to northern state hospital. Like this happen it if you're going to talk about asylums in the nineteen fifties era in the United States. You're going to find the bottom using you're going to find electroshock therapy done. Just that's what we did. Then and it sucks in it's awful. But there won't be you can't talk about an asylum from that era and not your things talked about that whole. That's a that's John rope its own now. Right. It'd be asylum's. That's thing. Yeah. That's one of my favorite like book Shahnawaz reading about like creepy. Creepy asylums making make video games around them. Yeah. Orders in them. And it's crazy in their locked in the figure how to get out. Yeah. Similar hospital was closed in nineteen seventy six. That's a long time. That was around for awhile. It must have been successful. Yeah. So we aren't sure how many patients died while at the hospital. But we are pretty sure there are on fifteen hundred unmarked graves in the hospital cemetery. Asylums unmarked graves are practically synonymous with haunting at make sense. Most of the hospitals buildings are now used as a drug rehab center for the job corps, which is why when we went we couldn't get to the hospital because if you actually if you do the research, and you're reading about it before like, I don't know the last three four years, you could get to all the main hospital building. And they were like decrepit they were abandoned, and you could get in there, and you could see like they literally just like left shit there the lights that people like they pulled down to do surgeries and stuff still in the building and like take in the building. And this is all these crazy pictures like people going in the building graffiti everywhere in the trash everywhere, which is fucking cool. Which is why originally wanted to go there. But they've sense the job corps since bought those buildings and remodeled all of them are using them as drug we had the willing would agree. Turn around for the Bill. No. But seriously, it's like, it's it's excellent that that could be used for this purpose. So now, that's all blocked off. And you can't get to it anymore. That's fine. But what is still there is the old farm buildings which we've been there. And we've seen a big thing about the asylums in Washington state. And I don't know if this is true for other places, they were like, oh work thing. So you would go to an asylum, and they would have like a farm attached to those asylum, and they would farm their own food. So they were entirely sustained like they had their own food. They would milk their own cows. They Carter their own vegetables. And then it gave patients sense of purpose, and like a sense of calm because they had this routine, and they were doing something for themselves in for other patients. So what you can now go visit is the cemetery at all of heart buildings and they've been preserved as northern state rep. Creation areas of their state park. Like, I said we've been there before last time. We didn't go to the cemetery though. 'cause I didn't know where it was. No. And it was pretty rainy and it was raining cold. It was Tober because I was doing this whole Halloween. Can't get it was it wasn't. It wasn't the best time to go there. But my they're I mean, they're covered in graffiti, just like, just like hospitals. I imagine it's fairly similar experience. Maybe some of the hospital stuff isn't there, which would make it creepy. But my my favorite piece of graffiti was in the the grain silo number. What what was it Shrek has low? That's right, Shaq as rep is love life. So anyway, I was gonna talk about huntings favor. Look that up online video with it. You should like I said most of the hospitals buildings are now used as a drug rehab center, but paranormal investigators who have been allowed into the buildings have documented the apparition of a nurse personal pushing pushing wheelchair and some visitors have reported seeing shadowy figures in hearing screams. I would love to just go into a crazy abandoned building. And just start saying stuff when I come out of it like, oh, I saw this. Oh, yeah. I saw leprechaun. People believe me, people might someone will someone someone. We'll damn sure someone believe you. So that is northern state hospital also known as northern state recreation area, and we're gonna go back out there, and we'll do videos and stuff. Okay. So now, we're going to rewind back in time and go move back south. We're going to an even older asylum now another asylum another asylum, so forth style of whom served as a military post from eighteen forty nine to eighteen sixty eight and the federal government pretty much abandoned it. Okay. So the Washington territory purchased it with the intentive turning it into an asylum and the insane asylum of Washington territory was opened in eighteen seventy one at it at that time was home to fifteen men and six women patients when Washington officially became a state in eighteen eighty nine. The name was changed to western state hospital care. They ran the usual gamut of crappy psych Africare practices, including hydroelectric therapies lobotomies and all about they typical Silom. Sure, the original building is still in use as western state hospital. They're just hopefully updated there. They've just updated their practice will. We'll get into that. But they were building still in use as a mental health facility asylums anymore. No. But there were other buildings that were abandoned and one of those buildings was called hill ward, and they make the circuits and paranormal websites, and it used to be again, like I'm just a few years past when they decided to tear all the shit down or like renovate stuff, which just bums me out. 'cause I like. If you were gonna do something really big and cool for my birthday. Find me an old asylum building that we wander around I'm coolest only be able to get you an old abandoned hospital. To what I can. So. It used to be that the ruins of these buildings were still standing in. You can find videos on YouTube, and some pretty awesome pictures of the abandoned buildings like really cool, but fort style Coon park, put in a bunch of work to clean up the area, which is great. It was attracting a lot of like. Yeah, it will not even homeless. It was attracting unseemly things gangs. We're going out there and using tagging practice makes sense. And the there's claims that there were like devil worshippers going out there. Those are my favorite the devil worshipping. They tend to be everywhere and nowhere this time. There was there were concerns about safety too. Because these buildings had been literally abandoned does like they they just walked away from them and didn't up keep them anymore. So like things were crumbling, and they were concrete buildings that were like falling apart. And so there's a lot of safety concerns. So the park puts in all this work. And they dismantled whole ward and left only the base of a chimney a retaining wall and a few pieces of rubble they chose to keep for an interpretive trail. Yes. Just like, interpretive dance. You have to dance while you walk down the trail. But I'm disappointed because I'd love to see like the actual volume down building. But we can still go see like the the items that they've chosen to keep ochre. And it's now part of this this park experience. It's really cool because what they've done with the park because it was a four originally as they've like run avait all the fort buildings, and they do on weekends. I think it was looking at it 'cause we should go do this sometime they have like. Like war reenactor like simple Oreo after holy kind of thing. Okay. Do lobotomies. No don't do. But it looks like they've put in a lot of work into. And I think that's really cool that actually doesn't pretty cool. Yes. Like in the Tacoma area. Okay. Oh, yeah. I was going to get into. It's really it's really hard to find historical information beyond that because western state hospital is still in operation. It's still located in Lakewood, and it has had a pretty negative run the last couple years so in June of last year they failed to pass muster for federal certification in fifty three billion dollars in funding. What that is tone of mullets Hon money. The state had to like it was either it was going to close or the state had a pony up. Fifty three billion dollars funding in the state. Did they ponied it up because like there the state? What were we going to do without western state hospital? Yeah. Because it's it's involuntary commitment for the criminally insane pretty much. Okay. So why quote where we can do without it? And the reason that it was like they've been having issues since two thousand fifteen and struggling to come in compliance with federal regulation and they've had three years to try to come into compliance with it. And basically the feds were like you're not there yet. And I don't think there's anything you can fix fast enough for you to be there. Wow. Yeah. With fifty three billion dollars. I think you could maybe take a billion of that off to fix your problem. Right. I guess. I guess a lot of the problem was they they're having trouble staffing. It. Why? I don't know. Maybe you need specially qualified people. Maybe they're having a lot of trouble staffing. It. There's not enough. Staff to patient ratio is not very good. They're currently facing lawsuits from four her patients who allege that they were not properly cared for even faced a salt from staff. Another patient like there's there's this article I found secure there in a couple of different places were like this one woman literally said that going to western state hospital is going to hell, and this is this is a mental hospital, and it's not just for criminally insane. I I know I said that, but it's not just there is a ward for criminally insane. And then there's it's it is a mental health acidity for people who need help. Okay. And this woman literally was like this did not help me. It was going to hell, and she that woman. I think was claiming anything her son's helping her bring the lawsuit, but like she was raped by orderly. And and that's something you hear a lot about Blake mental health facilities is. Them taking advantage of of patients who are not mentally there, which just just the fucking shittiest esus gusting Sony. They're facing facing lawsuits because they're just not taking care of their patients. It kinda like it's still sounds like an old school asylum. Fucking shit. I can take you there. There you go. Yeah. I wanna go what you just banned places. Oh, not sure. It's like, hey, you know, what it is federally abandoned abandoned. It's true. He goes. So that is not as western state hospital. Okay. I mean that sounds like a real five star hotel. Well, the reason that I put western state hospital on the list, again, asylums and everything synonymous with huntings. Embiid people before all the buildings got torn down and everything people talk about like being creepy in the devil worshippers there, and like so the devil worshippers were there. That's like adding an extra little bit of a Colt beyond as being like this miserable place where a lot of people were mistreated than died where if you're going to believe in ghosts that makes sense for people to remain in. Like, I fear is to be trapped in a place like that that kind of is logical. So there you have it. There were two asylums weird alien thing and creepy mausoleum. In a Partridge in a pear tree. And it's all in Washington. So we can go see all of that. We can't. Can't happen at once it'll roll out slowly the easiest one is going to be northern state hospital. I mean, cool. Maybe we'll get some information about it turned it into a real a documentary. You'll maybe we'll see what happens. That's what I got for you. So you can find us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at TI podcast, if you like what we're doing. You can jump on over to I tunes. Leave us a review their elbow them sucks helps other people find us. Oh, I guess they color himselves apple podcast now on over. I don't know. I'm really annoyed with apple for a lot of reasons. Right now. If you listen to it on ova podcasts. That's okay. We still love you. Anyway, really like what we're doing? You can come on over to patriot where you get maybe ios and you'll get to see the upcoming field trips that we are going to take to these cool places in Washington you can buy merchandise the somewhere dot threatless dot com. You can find our show notes, all the pictures and everything at the truth is somewhere dot com. If you have questions comments concerns, you can Email as the truth is somewhere podcast at g mail dot com. And that is absolutely everything. I have for you. The truth is somewhere guys. Keep looking. Truthful stuff about swear.

Washington western state hospital Stafford McMillan northern state hospital MacMillan Washington United States MacMillan Roche harbor Japan gophers Roche harbor cemetery Meghan apple Nicole Methodist church MERCOSUR Dr Charles H Jones
Jonah Mutono Drops Kidepo Pseudonym On New Album

World Cafe

23:18 min | 11 months ago

Jonah Mutono Drops Kidepo Pseudonym On New Album

"You're listening to World Cafe. I'm rain address today. Our guest is Joan Antonio. He spoke with World Cafe contributing host Kaleo. Joan Amato's debut album features songs about the foremost common last names in America sharing a moment with this stranger on a long train. Ride and imagining what it would be like to get married. Just after World War Two now this is disparate subject matter. It helps know that Joan is worldview is pretty wide. He was born in London and lived in the United States until his family moved to Uganda. When John was just eight years old he attended a boarding school in Kenya and moved to London for High School and College. Before returning to Uganda. It was there. He found a lot of musical attention for his recordings under the alias. Caputo since then Jona has shed a pseudonym and moved to New York City to make music under his own name. His debut album is called Burg and will be released soon today. We're getting a sneak preview of some of his new songs. Let's get started with circulation. H Jones Mattel now on World Cafe Ma friends they always and say mom blinds Lord knows how gossip spread hiding banned Asthma and nights can be so I'm giving but they dream. We are closer than we've been. We I love the crew. Why don't we want fall off? Where the John Well Abidi's pretend nine this trapped in between nervy skin every rap so tight that as a bid and that wherever we ought to launch you. We used cruel. Shot a Wow that is that's absolutely beautiful John Amato hear how my Gosh? The debut album is called. Gerg was Circulation welcome to the cafe. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah so you've lived in a lot of different places but one of the things that I saw on your bio that I found interesting. Is We tape this show here in Philadelphia so in your many travels a round the world you've lived in Philly? How old were you? And how long did you live here? We moved here when I was seven months old and we left when I was eight. Okay so you don't have very much to remember about Philadelphia. No I remember going to the playground and I was home schooled so I remember being at home and walking around on the street and going to the corner store to buy lucky charms but you kind of lose when you leave America interesting. So what happened at eight Take me take me from there from eight. Where where do you move next? We moved back to you. Got To my parents are Ugandan and we went back there Because my dad wanted to start a charity interesting okay so eight you just so that's really where I would imagine you`re. Adolescence begins obviously as in Uganda. Because most people don't remember from zero to eight very little yes. Yeah definitely But I think I was there for two years and went to boarding school when I was ten in Kenya. Okay so we so. We're now up to three countries here in ten years of your life. Yes Sir so from Kenya to. How do you end up in London? Because I know that London was part of a huge part of your story yes So my parents were working out in the middle of nowhere where my dad grew up and there was nowhere to go to school and a couple that had been sponsoring. My parents charity. Took me in and let me live at their house? While I went to school in England when I was twelve years old. Well can you at ten to England at Twelfth. Yes okay well and then I pretty much was in England until the end of college. But I'd go back to Uganda really frequently. Okay so so how'd you end up in America? Here okay well after I. I'm doing so many things but I just. It's such a fascinating heartbreaking. After Uni I end up going back to Uganda to live. My parents hadn't really lived with properly for a really long time. And that's where I started making music. Just you know it's done logic and I made my first couple of songs. Put them out on soundcloud. And they got picked up by blogs. And this I guess my parents gave me some money and to go to New York to see if like I don't know I could make anything of it. That's incredible that's that's what you hope for your parents over really exactly most people when you think of your parents and it's like Hey. I want to do something music related. They're like you know. Oh yeah real bad. Thank my dad. Who grew up in a mud? Had He didn't have his first parachute so he's fourteen years old Sorry to out him like that if he listened to this He was he was he said. Oh I'm just I feel like I've done well enough that you feel privileged enough to be an artist here on the World Cafe Geno the debut album is called Gerg and The next one we're going to hear is called shoulders and I. I love the sentiment of the song because it's something that I think. We can all identify with being tired and being that shoulder that someone rests their hat on or was that one out of a real life experience for you as really I was living in New York time and I feel like city. Life is very isolating. I mean you can have your friends but at the same time. Everyone's working all the time and one evening I was on on the train and a lady put her head on my shoulder and I thought oh well this is a this is what we should be doing for each other so I kind of wanted to on that interesting. Do you remember what line it was? It was on Jay Leno New York. Subway lines have some people who don't realize their lines and they have personalities sort of like certain behaviors is acceptable on one. Oh for real. Yeah there would. You couldn't pull that on. Maybe another stop. No not on the train for shirt so so did you. How did the did you? Did you waking her when you had to get up. What got off before? I did. Thank goodness because I was really scared at the moment. We're to be like excuse me go so well. That's a really really sweet sentiment and the idea that city life is i. It can be very very arduous and having a moment of respite is it was such a beautiful sentiment so thanks. You're setting up for us. Everyone should lean in and listen now. It's shoulders on the world. Cafe is the sixth of Now. Vam just another Tuesday night with no phone calls now. Dan Plans to speed. And I've been the seed Filler Abidi repair but that doesn't mad my st you. Does you know to me like in Seattle. Really know but engine no and Cottam. No you could be anyone code will lose a knock. Combo so you could be anyone anywa anyway you I show you how minds a bay by a killer still trying to make me just I don't really know engine Anna Salvador Qatar. No you could be adding a hugh. How so kids Don't Ya hum only show you how you sleeping. So you could almost Company name here on the World Cafe absolutely beautiful Jimmy Toner with shoulders from the debut album. Gird I'm my name's Kallio I'm the host of or one of the hosts of World Cafe and someone who works in entertainment right so for many years. I did not go by my last name. Which is Kalaheo And I can appreciate a musician that has stage name so for several years. People knew your music but they didn't know your name and that was by design correct. Yes tell me a little bit about a kid up. Oh and why it was chosen not a stage name but actually more sort of like a barrier to Jonah over for Sir. I think it was always music's always such a great outlet to me that it didn't seem I think at one point never seemed like I'd really be able to do it professionally and and at the same time. A lot of my friends did no I was doing it and it was just something so personal. I didn't really grow up having a lot of creative friends You know all my friends growing up. Or they're all accountants. Now they work in development and that sort of thing so as always quite a secret thing and so being out in public Putting out music kind of felt maybe embarrassing. I had a couple of friends that played instruments and I sang a lot of opera secondary school. Which is you know what it is. But it's also quite an elite level of this a niche thing and actually a couple of my friends who I grew up with. Ended up doing that. But you're seeing someone else's music and it's quite a small little bubble to like actually write your own music. Wow Is One of those things I feel like. I played a couple of my own songs and secondary school to a couple of people and it was always. It always felt like as far as quite an impostor. What are you doing writing songs into you? Know Wow so it was being you not being an impostor at all but you end but at a certain point you decided you're okay with putting this music out but you're going to do it under a different name. Yes I said. This is the obvious question what what was the what was the watershed moment where you decided that you know. The songs are not coming from Connecticut. But they're coming from Jonah and they and you need to know they're gonNA come Jona. I feel like at a certain point when enough music it come on. I was kind of use yet to the idea of it. I thought you know it is it is it is coming from me and I want people to know who I am because it would provide some context and I think what I love most about the the artists I love and grew up with is that they have the name out there. When you really WANNA find out about us on you kind of find out about it through the context of their life and what they're going through and I wanted there to be a person behind the music you're listening to World Cafe. We're here with John McDonough. Be Debut. Album IS GREG so debut album Gerg Gerg. You think that it's just it's a sound but for me. It reminds me of my childhood because one of my good friends. His nickname was Gert Because Gerg is greg backwards exactly So who's Greg who's Greg who's who's Gerke then WHO's Greg? Greg is somebody that I dated who? I didn't want anybody to know about no way. Yeah so I saved them in my phone as Gerke so that anybody who picked up my phone because pretty loose with my phone like anyone can really look into if they want to. So if they ever looked in the Gerber and they'd be like Oh this is like who could this possibly be like. It's probably just a friend or whatever this like not and it and it worked for the most part so it was because you didn't want them to know you had a partner or yeah I guess so I guess so. I think it's like one of those things where I grew up. Very religiously and A lot of my friends are still in that community and so when I went back to England in two thousand seventeen just went straight back into the community and that was It was kind of I was I was exploring was exploring and I kind of wanted to do it without the the eyes of all the people that have known me since childhood or whatever you're listening to the World Cafe we're here with Joe Montana on on what is really interesting session and I really appreciate your honesty and your candor. Nineteen forty nine. That's an interesting title for a song. It was a very good year. I don't know I wasn't I wasn't there so I set us up. Set THIS UP FOR US. Would you please? Nineteen forty nine is a year. That was a a big baby. Boom era lots of babies are being born on the minute. Come home from war and I feel like if you see pictures of couples from nineteen forty nine. It's all very like a very traditional love. You GET MARRIED. You have kids very traditionally speaking and I wrote this song for my friend's wedding very Sarcastically I feel in terms of dislike. I want I want to write them on that. I can play the wedding but I make sure if feels like it feels like me and then I feel like after written it for this wedding and then I fell in love myself I was like Oh actually I feel like this is accurate and I hit the nail on that cool. Let's hear it. Could you be the though at nineteen forty nine? Could you be this? We say the Mediterranean he love calm the just grab. Won't you need somebody somebody to be a? That sounds bad so settled me. Could you be mom for nearly third day? That almost fake forty nine a loss strayed into. I think Ma stint time. Describe the keys. You need somebody to be be that sound bad. So settled a affects. You crave waited way baby in half the effects you've been craving weighed way. You just pick look. You need some somebody. He cake seeing Back so if you're ready to settle Wow on the world cafe nineteen forty-nine Cinema Tonio. You have a piano player sitting next to you. Would you introduce him? This is Kevin Bernstein. A Kevin how you doing man fantastic and GIG number. How many times have you guys played together this second together? You're getting applause from me. That is beautiful and and you carried it off flawlessly today guys. It was an absolute pleasure. Congratulations on the album. I get the feeling we're going to be hearing a lot more from you in the future. Please come back and see us again so much. Thanks for having US. We got it. This is the world cafe.

World Cafe Uganda Gerg Gerg America United States New York City London Kenya England World Cafe Ma Jonah Greg who Joan Amato High School and College Joan Antonio Joan John Well Abidi Philadelphia Burg
Mother Jones (Entry 675.MK0333)

Omnibus! With Ken Jennings and John Roderick

1:09:54 hr | 1 year ago

Mother Jones (Entry 675.MK0333)

"This sir we are Jennings and John Rodrick we speak to you from our present which we can only assume as your distant past the turbulent time that was the early twenty I singer during the great cataclysm that will surely befall our civilization we began this monumental reference of strange obscure human knowledge. These recordings represent our attempt to compile and preserve wonders esoterica. That would otherwise be lost. So whether you're listening from an advanced civilization or have just reinvented the technology to decrypt our transmissions leg to you. This is our time capsule this is the you have access entry. Six seven five dot M. Zero three three three certificate number one two nine five to mother Jones. Have you ever considered unionizing this show I'm kind of afraid that there's a unions GonNa form and you and I as the bosses are going to be left holding the bag. I thought we would be unionizing against the bosses. But we're we're we're the bosses. Now we are. That's true we almost almost struck against our corporate overlords. That's true but we were too invested in in providing the future links with this information we didn't want to risk it and also we didn't want to call up a bunch of other podcasters and see if if they would hold up piece of paper that says Union. Can you imagine they'd do it. Union of podcasters won a multi headed hydra that that would be. Yeah Good luck trying to have a march 'cause you'd have to get them out of the house but we We are generally pro labor. Given you and I are both on the What would be described traditionally as the left end the political spectrum? I think so and I'm not. Even one of these unions were great in their time. But boy they sure messed everything up like I kind of feel like the weakening of the Labor movement. America's actually done a lot of harm. So you're you remain pro-union yeah wow I'm not traverse stance. I feel like you don't want to be one of those guys who was like X.. was good but it went too far because the civil rights movement I also remain pro union. My Dad was union labor organizer Labor activists did he did he travel around. tweet just traveled around America. Trying to know he was. He worked primarily as an arbitrator here in Washington. Like big companies like Boeing or No it was the waterfront. He was a an arbitrator for the Longshoremen's Union Stevedores and whatnot so waterfront reasons reasons to things that are never mobbed up like. Is there any crime issues. y'All there's always crime. Ken Think about all the crime that happens. I think you're going to overturn the milk cow. Because of one cup of now we all make a little. We can all make a nice profit. Here that's my my motto. We can. We can figure this out here me. That enveloped the that's targeted jacket. Well you know. The story of the Labor a Union in the United States is Is a kind of a a tremendous story tremendous tail all and a an elaborate and and multi various cross generational. It's an happening happening. Both simultaneously and alongside. What's happening in Europe at the same time? And the rise of kind of collective theory and and the right socially but also happening in a very distinctive American way. It's kind of funny that ever happened. You know when you look at the State of American now how you really don't feel like it's the kind of culture where a workers movement would take root. Well it's funny because the you know we're living in an era now that we recognize as kind of a time when capital has has has kind of coalesced. In among a very few and Capitalism has become very concentrated and corporate corporate as calcified calcified sees the means of production. Now like four guys. What are the odds? You're going to meet one of them but good luck season the means of production. We're not going to get off his plane. This this that we're seeing now has happened. Multiple Times in the pin just the short period of the American couple of centuries and at the very height of the sort of robber. Baron era of the late nineteenth century capital was consolidated ended at about the same level as it is now. Is that true. Yeah like by by measures of income inequality or controlled percentage of GNP or whatever. Yeah the one percent sent then control the you know the same amount of the same proportion of the capital as the one percent now they just owned more Mongols they own more. Monaco's they own more railroads and coal mines and more mutton chops per capita the The rich now own comparatively few railroads and and coalmines although although the friend of the show. Warren Buffett is a listener. That worn is is consolidating pollinating his His Rolling Stock Right He. He decided he was going to get into the railroad business. Dance all virtually realized people. Just get into the digital railroad. ooh That is Facebook it's always railroad series of tubes. It's like except we're the Cadillac. Getting loaded onto the car is now although Alon. Musk really into that that he he wants to that cost overrun plagued to just wants a single to. He doesn't want a series of tubes. He things I just want one to one fast too long tube like like fast too but when you put the cylinder in the thing at the bank and it goes pneumatic tube. It's like a pneumatic tube. But he's like what if that between Vancouver and in San Francisco pneumatic tubes on my list of Nova Stop. It's it's GonNa be by the time you hear this. We have done the pneumatic tubes. Show a huge hit. There's photos of pneumatic tubes on the facebook as booker. Everybody's going into their old office buildings and finding little defunct pneumatic tube. Because you often see them right by you go to a hotel. That's old enough and there will be one right by the elevator to send to send room service requests down to the kitchen. Please don't send us these photos now. But a lot of the the unions in America evolved out of the industrial revolution and the and the fact that at that point in meantime early on in the industrial revolution there had not yet consolidated all that capital into the hands of very few. It was still sort of well literally literally a wild west but also land rush sometimes literally One of the first and most powerful unions in the United States was the glassblowing even really early because glass blowers were considered a very refined class of worker that had had a high. I set of skills. So even if you're like I don't agree with you. It's but you know who needs special protection is our fighting men and women in the glassblowing mines. When there was a there was a sense so of of glass blower unity That That that owners because glass blowers did all all the the bottles for medicaments and patent medicine. Winston poultices all the all the lab. Glass I mean. Let's Alcohol Alcoholic Alcoholic. We can't I'm sure that's the biggest use case and so there was a lot of There was a lot of pressure on on manufacturers because the glass blowers were the this high paid cast. And it's it's a really skilled job so a lot of power and so the owners continually tried to to flood the market with lesser qualified. Glass blowers and so- glass blowers had to had to resist. At a certain point. There was a there was an apprentice program of Glasgow Blower Apprentice Program. But it was run by the owners of the companies and they tried to run as many apprentices. This is through as they could to dilute the workforce right and the glass blowers part of their unionization was to try and take over the apprenticeship program so that they could choke took off the supply. You just show the apprentice cross-border some really sub-standard glassblowing technique. Just make him well. And so I taught you everything you know. But that doesn't mean I taught you everything I I know. Greg Greenglass was was considered sort of a lesser glass compared to like crystal glass. And they're two different right. Glass Explores Coca. Cola is not going to sponsor this podcast anymore. They use white glass me. Glass in their bottle coke used to have green bottles and now they don't yeah well for those were the days were But but then You know as as organized labor started to grow grow in popularity really it was like miners ironworkers wrought iron was very popular DC. See My dangerous jobs is that is that is that kind of what drives it. Well they're all widows and orphans all jobs in the past eighteen yes uh-huh every job was equally. There are very few bar. Toby scrivener's in this story and a lot of people that are out on twitter. SCRIVENER's trying to unionize is and it'll be like good job. Good news unionized buzzfeed. And then it'll be like Oh. We failed to unionized. Feed buds choir has fallen but wired has not the scrivener still struggling. Yeah and it's a I mean. Now we think of unions being the province of kind of auto workers but But in the nineteenth century of course there was like manufacturing thing was not. Were there was just. There was so much labor involved in In the expansion of the railroads because it involved I mean what what made the steel industry. What it was was that the railroads were were expanding West so there was all this mining that had to happen? All this refining all this production in of steel all the mining of coal that would power the plants that were producing the steel to push the railroads. It was a huge. You know national enterprise and Did it feel like it was maybe patriotic to protect these workers. Like this is what the the West needs. This is for the frontier. Well no because organized labor has always been a threat to to sovereignty. You know it's I'm just wondering how public opinion shakes out on something like that. Well it sort of depends on where you live right. And for instance in it wasn't until till eighteen eighty six that that the AFL the American Federation of Labor was founded And it was a competition between two ideas of labor organizing the AFL. It was organized around the idea. It was it was a style of union called a Craft Union which which understood organizing. Is it Labor to be something that you did based on the particular skill set that you had as a worker so a craft union Now you would have. You'd have a union of could be bricklayers but it'd be across ten industries instead of everybody. Who worked in the one plant right an often? A limited amount of limited number of workers. If you could find a specialization that made sense like you know the green glass blowers hours and the white glass blowers would end up being separate unions. I guess they could use some power if you can if you control everybody's access to Labor of that kind. You're in a much better bargaining position. That's right if they shut down one key element in a manufacturing process they could shut the whole operation down in so it gave these craft unions a lot of power but what it produced induced was a situation where labour was often pitted against itself because The the the white glass blowers would strike but the truck truck drivers would have to cross the picket line in order to perform their job and they didn't feel any particular. There wasn't a the the sense that came later. That unions all respected one another strikes. There'd be a very clear hierarchy right like if if it's hard to find and train skilled glass blowers that's a union. That has a a lot of power in Poland leverage whereas if it's very easy to train somebody to drive the truck then those guys have no pull at all. Also the result of a glass blower strike would be improved proved conditions for glass blowers but the truckers are on strike and losing wage is. That's true and they don't benefit from the strike plus none of your medicaments come in bottles anymore. You have to buy like a Gourd of Thailand to get just get it just comes in Gordon. Behold your hat out they fill it with Thailand and the reason awesome there became a cio which we think of the AFL CIO as a single organization union but that was a merger it wasn't merger and and the CIO originally split off from the AFL as A. Because they they wanted to organize according to what was called an industrial union Indian model. which was as you said earlier across across unions but but a the top to bottom unites a workplace? That's right okay. So if a factory went on strike everybody would go on strike there and they shut the factory down down the idea. Being the longer the picket line the shorter the the strike had to be and and then all of all of the laborers would sort of mutually Utah benefit from improved conditions. Are you would you would strike as a group solidarity. Start to build a lacrosse solidarity. Exactly right and there were a lot of things at stake. I mean there were working conditions at stake. There were there were The long hours there was no forty. There was no eight hour eight hour day. There was child labor Women were paid not just sort of the the The the fairly significant amount less than men that they're paid now like they would be dreaming of seventy two cents on the dollar. They would love that option for that. They were paid children's wages You know they were. They were worked in conditions of complete servitude. Also in a lot of these coal mines and other industrial situations that happened closer to the frontier up in the mountains of West Virginia or way out in Pennsylvania Lavinia the the mind and the environment around. The mine was completely isolated from anywhere else any town or any any Stores are commerce of any kind. So you've got this company store model where the town owned the housing the town the store the town paid their workers in non negotiable company. Scrip your boss just owns you. This is the same as today with email but and they go to Amazon. They'd give you like Advances on your pay at which point here now in debt to the company. So you're basically working to pay off your own and they continue extend you credit and pretty soon. Yeah you're totally. This is what happened with John when the workers don't Organiz this is what happens. That's right and and there were there. There were lots of strikes. During this period. There was There was a big railroad strike in eighteen. Seventy seven that kind of shut down the railroads. The railroad strike produced a lot of violence. There was there was often a mandy. Strikes were often characterized used by violence and that violence came because This was during a period when it was much more overt than it is now that the owners here's who controlled the political power that would that would that gave them the power to ask Governor to call in the National National Garden and in in situations where the local law enforcement wouldn't support the owners. They had the power to call in their own private police forces verses and what we would call like Blackwater now but they were domestic They were just big Irish guys right. But but that's what that's blackwater used to be called big big Irish Irish guys but you know kind of thuggish share of that would come in and and and often opened fire. The the the violence around the railroad strike in eighteen. Seventy seven is part of why you see. So many armories built in the centers of Metropolitan Colin areas. Those big brick armories. That you know those several in Brooklyn there used to be one here in Seattle that overlooked the waterfront. Is the one like run into space. Neil that's now a food court and an art center that also of that time. That was a later armory That that happened during World War One. Because we're one was a time when those armories were re purposed but the earlier armories that were built in the nineteenth century. Were built at partly to You know as sort of readouts readouts and National Guard stockpiles against the people's uprising. For before the Kaiser our real enemy was coal miners coal miners and a And glass blowers and textile workers One of the big original labor unions was The Knights of Labor there nights like that really gets you on their side. It's very romantic. Well and the original name of the Knights of Labor was the noble and Holy Order of Labor. kind of tying into these what do you call on fraternal organizations that do good in the community the knights of Columbus or whatever and very much very much noted kind of May Sonic order. It was a secret society but the model of labor union. The Knights of Labor practiced was across all work. So anyone that was a worker was what's eligible to join the Knights of labor past a certain point past the point that they decided to open themselves up and become like a general union of all working people and one there. You know one of the big things they wanted to do was passed the eight hour work week or I'm sorry eight hour work day. Wouldn't it be nice. I WanNa pass basically you and I have worked. Yeah that's the podcasters. I demand when it comes to meet. Quality makes a huge difference in texture and taste and even though it might be better for you any environment a lot of higher quality you find in. The grocery store is just too expensive for most people's budget thankfully. There's butcher butcher box but your box believes everyone deserves. Access to high-quality humanely source meet at an affordable price. That's why each month but your box ships a curated curated selection of the finest cuts right to your home. Choose from one. Hundred percent grass-fed unfinished beef. Free range organic chicken heritage pork wild caught Alaskan salmon and sugar and Nitrate Free Bacon. No antibiotics no added hormones. Just meet the way meet should be this black Friday. You can get butcher boxes. His Alderman Steak sampler. That's a total of eight free stakes. Plus Twenty dollars off your first box. Just go to butcher box dot com slash iheart or use Promo Code Iheart at a checkout. That's butcher box dot com slash iheart or use Promo Code iheart check out. That brings us to the topic of today's show at long last as long last. It's almost twenty minutes in a style style. At the time we get notes either way we get complaints either way in eighteen thirty seven in your Ireland. Oh we're we're hopping back before the American labor movement and we have referenced Ireland Roland already several times in this show lovingly because because of her deep affection for it and it feels it feels like Ireland played a play a big role in the Labor movement or Irish immigrants rather because the The big immigration from Ireland happened sort of coincident with the rise of the industrial era. I'm mostly interested the role of the Irish Bulgarians Bulgaria. Making all this happen. I I have a lot of firsthand experience with Irish Bulgarians that we'll get to later or no we've gotten to already. Yes a young woman by the name of Mary Harris what doth was born I I guess she was very young woman when she was born. Maybe the for briefly she might have been the youngest person on the planet of for for a few seconds she was. She was born onto a to a large family in Ireland and in the in the eighteen forties during the the disastrous potato famine. There they immigrated as as a family to the to North America they. They came to Canada I. She was raised went to teacher's College. You know Kinda raised to be a A she that's right. She was a smart smart gallon. Raised to be a teacher eventually. She sort of emigrated out of Canada following the work down Chicago and then eventually to Memphis where she met and married a man by the majority of Jones. I'm not the country star stand. I'm by your man. Mary Harris and he was already a member of the international moulders and Founders Union which was founded in eight hundred fifty nine because this moulders and found ray were okay founders ran a foundry moldy moulders Mo- moulders from Moldovya. You know they're working with wrought iron there they are are different. Parts of the ironworkers industry. Some people mold some people found got it and and she and he you know built a happy life together he was making a good enough living as a as a molder and founder that she she sort of left her teaching life and devoted herself to the domestic arts. I feel like you need to combine the founders into one union and just call it the efforts that what happened later. I'm sure they members than they. FM Evers and they they had built a pretty you know middle-class life there middle middle class working people's life in Memphis but in eighteen sixty seven when she was when our heroine Mary Mary Harris now Jones Mary Harris Jones when she was thirty years old. A yellow fever epidemic struck the the Memphis area. This is a little bit of a cautionary tale for any anti vaccine. That might be listening or or or a super intelligent -squitoes super intelligent mosquitoes super intelligent agent yellow fever virus might be sitting on the edge of their chairs. Yes this was your big moment. This is like the moment in the planet of the apes prequels where the apes takeover coming ten is more. What did we do? What did we do? You all confronted them on the Golden Gate Bridge and you got him. Well what you did. In this instance sent in yellow fever. Is You killed George George Jones and all four of their children. Oh Wow so. She lost her entire family to one month. Long Yellow. Fever epidemic epidemic. And that was just not unexpected. At the time that you were living with the knowledge that could happen any month but just happened to be the month. We all get cholera. Yellow fever is one of for those viral infections. That has no I mean you can be inoculated against it but once you can track the virus year just on the course here he write it out and even now yellow fever if it gets to the level of of infection kills about half the people that get it. Wow I just didn't realized it was I think of it as a tropical disease. Not a memphis disease. Well it had. Yellow Fever was introduced to the Americas during the slave trade and then once it was in Central America South America follows the mosquitoes and the mosquitoes Memphis is a pretty boggy part of the United States. No offense to memphis the INS meant fights. SINS MEMPHIS IN MEMPHIS EMA I'm pretty sure that the fights fights you don't forget you can't possibly be men fife if we're going to get so many emails. I'm already happy about all the things. We have to read a demo of Memphis so it got it got hot and Muggy that year and the mosquitoes came up the river and And killed her family so she left Memphis she went up to. She went back to Chicago and she started. A dress is making business she. She was now in labor. You know she her association with her husband who was part of a labor union. And this is you know pretty mid nineteenth century right. It's this I mean. This all happened during the period of the civil war right she they they met and married in eighteen sixty one and her family died in eighteen sixty seven so you know. Labor is happening in the context of civil war during this period. I guess if she was in Memphis like she's in a border. Stay confederacy right. Yeah that would have been a confederate port until it was lost. So he's in a battle of Memphis. He's making iron for the confederate munitions railroads like to think that he was just making wrought iron for the for the riverboat. gambler's the balconies on the river. I think he was making iron from his. He was working out of his love of iron. That's right she was just like molding and founding he doesn't even follow the greater events of state it was a craft union. WHO's probably making roulette tables? I heard but she the She went to Chicago where she'd passed through on her on her migration and settled there and opened a dress shop which in eighteen seventy one a mere four years later was completely destroyed in the Chicago. Fire my Gosh. Mother can't catch a break. No No mother Jones now thirty four years old having lost everything ex mother again. Well she wasn't known as Mother Jones at this point she was still Mary Harris Jones and h during this period. All it seems like all men who are engaged in union work or industrial work or on both besides Labor side in owner side are referred to by their first two initials J. D. Rockefeller. JP Morgan would you say that in person because you always see it on sign painting. You know it's our w Kerr wins haberdashery right but would you really see him and go are W it's been a while I believe you would I mean do you know what J. P. Morgan's it's John. Peer Porn Point Morgan. But you wouldn't have all done John. I guess J. P. Morgan. So W that's just so many syllables. W pierpoint your point. That's a case. where the W it probably takes longer to save in war or whatever the William or whatever? The name is standing in for. So my uncle's name was he was known as C.. Calvert Knutson people call him see cal but his real name was you know Calvert Calvert wasn't he was not the protagonist of mid century novel know his real name. Was I think like Kookaburra because that's Tocchet but I don't even know it was my uncle's name. It was Charles. No I D I s R. I mean he went with Calvert which is worse than Calvert I. I think it was Cornwallis. Cuthbert you might have been Cuthbert we'll just say it was cut Alvarado idea what my uncle's name was your a replicant. We did it. We figured it out seeking Z.. Cam Newton but it was always seek calvert and and it made me think for a while of going by J Morgan Roderick honestly. That's something that initials didn't actually die-off until like the counterculture of the sixties like US presidents. Were always Harry Truman. Dwight D Eisenhower. Men were traditionally only first name middle initial that was kind of the last fortification. The last stand of the initials did you ever call him. William Jefferson Clinton. No No. It's left. Who the last one Lyndon B Johnson all? We did George W because we believed him from. Nobody was saying Ronald W Reagan. James e Carter harder like Richard M Nixon was the last of that and he was a throwback to being Eisenhower's Vice President Gerald R Ford. We did say I guess that was it was so Carter Carter ruined at Carter killed initials Carter killed it. Well it was. It was part of his fifty five mile an hour speed. America's just having too good a time initial uh-huh sweaters and there's no better definition of Malays than not being able to use your but it was during the aftermath of the Chicago fire and the reconstruction of the Chicago. Fire that that Mary Harris or Naggus now Mary Jones Jones Mary H H Jones. She got involved. She watched the you know the the The work that went on to rebuild Chicago and became active in the the noble and Holy Order of the Knights of Labor or the Knights of Labor. She became a kind of construction guys rebuilding building the city. Where we're all unionized? And Right. So she's hanging out with union men. She's hanging out with them and and And you know she's lost everything but this is is this is a community that she that she felt welcomed by and she felt a certain sort of she had a she was tone as a as a great or raider. She had shed a melodious voice. She had an ability to kind of captivate captivate a room. She's got a teacher's background classroom management. One of the first things you learn but she became she became radicalized and gradually radicalized. And I think like a lot of people. She was radicalized by in in one thousand nine hundred eighty six what what was referred to as the haymarket affair and are you familiar with the haymarket affair. Everybody cares about the history of labor to this day. Kids learn about Haymarket Haymarket Square. I mean you're not so well. We said Haymarket square riot when I was a kid and I think that is gone away. Because it's insufficiently pro Labor to claim that the the people were rioting right. Markets massacre is to anti to anti capital. So what what happened in and we'll let the future leagues decide decide for themselves whether it was a riot or a massacre of but in in May of eighteen eighty six there was a a peaceful workers demonstration a gathering of all the workers hers there in Chicago and they were agitating which again immediately throws into question whether or not it was a peaceful. How do you agitate and it's also peaceful? I I guess you can. My washing machine can agitate and I'm not like opened fire on. It doesn't sound peaceful digit. I feel like it's doing. Its thing everything's GonNa be okay. And that was true of these workers they were. They were advocating for an eight hour workday and some uh-huh where during the protest someone threw a bomb. And this is going to depend on whether you call it a riot or a massacre because the police had had arrived. And we're trying to disburse the gathering there on big horses and dispersing the gathering is intrinsically a sort of anti lay labor movement or an anti Labor There's a constitutional right to assembly. I've been there sort of doing it as you say. Sort of you know just riding their horses through and saying like alright everybody. Let's break it up. Someone throws a bomb now. This was also during an era of of of anarchism ascendant. The fear that European bomb checking Weirdos are going to come over dark shores. That's right throwing throwing their bombs and and ruining America. The Black Cyrus spy coupons with long hissing hissing fuses. So the bomb blew up You know among the police their guns were brandished on. Both sides gunfight ensued and seven. Cops were dead seven coppers. Let's call them what they were for like the was multiple multiple miners were injured. Four died I think but what happened was a group of the protesters are the or labor organizers. Were scapegoated as that. They never found who who threw the bomb but they were the ringleader. Yeah and it was a gender adjudged to have constituted conspiracy and Several of them were sent to the gallows and this galvanized the American labor movement and it radicalized. Mary Mary Jones she's in the training camp on. Chicago's lower east side. That's out there. Is there a no go zone learning the Jihad of this and she had the innovative idea that if you were going to organize workers what you needed to do or or an effective active method would be to organize their wives so it wasn't sufficient to just send or in. Some cases wasn't effect to reorganize their cupboards cupboards no no to to join protests or to protest themselves both because they were sympathetic but also because they had tremendous holdover their husbands and what their husbands were going to do or say during the day. So it was one thing for the men in a factory to haul stand there and you know huddle and rattle their broad iron out at the at the the detectives the Pinkerton detectives that were arrayed against them but there was another thing for all the wives and children in town to effectively go on strike not let their husbands go to work or they they often would stand out. What an and Bang brooms on trash can lids and say strike? Strike Strike in a lot of this guy up and fire can't open fire but also the the the what was happening here was has labor. Unions were trying to unionize industries and towns and so it wasn't just that the that these protests were against the corporate corporate fathers are the masters it was also that the protests were meant to galvanize nonunion families to join the Union. At at which point you know they would then develop a majority and have negotiating power. Read an so enlisting the wives and the children in this process Mary Jones became a kind of a power in the labor force are in the in the union force because nobody had not occurred to anyone to do it it. It doubles the turnout at your rally. Yeah that's right and this was happening against somewhat contemporaneous. Rainy Asli with the Women's suffrage movement. Do I get to do my impression of the women's suffrage lady from Republicans. Let's hear it merely soldiers and petty coats. I feel like I do this on the shell on. This crusade is for women's votes. It's good yeah I think I think that links rock-solid solid run out and watch. Mary poppins right now to get understand. Kenza impression Mary Jones was rand somewhat a foul of the suffragettes because she did not advocate for a women earning the franchise. She did not want women to vote. She was submit that generation that school of thought that said Women don't need the vote. They already kind of control the household and and as long as they control how the men vote. Why why? Why bother with all the shenanigans? It's interesting that someone who has realized what a powerful force women can be in the Labor movement meant doesn't also want to leverage that in the political arena. Her quote was. You don't need the vote to raise hell. Does she feel like Nick. So she was a hard bitten. Cigar chomping labor organizer. I just wonder what her response would be to. What if you could raise more hell with the voter? Keep keep continue to raise occurred amount of hell but could amp that hell up with the franchise. Yeah and I think they thinking culturally at the time the idea of I I mean really just strikes. You is wrong from where you come from. And then you're just inventing reasons but also on things I think people at the time were arguing whether or not populism and the extending the vote to uneducated miners was a good idea. You know hadn't been that long before that. The vote was much more restricted. That you think her working class middle you would would would fight against that you would. She's not somebody who thinks that it's dangerous for poor factory workers to vote and when she was accused accused of being anti women's votes she pushed back and said anything that uplift the the class the lower class. I'm in favor above. I just don't currently see how the women's vote. It could be one of these like yeah. This is not our battle thing you know all the LGBT activists that were not not pro gay marriage because they thought it was not the next battle. It was counterproductive. There were other things you could win and surprised at how fast it happened and I think that's I think that's true and I think maybe it also fell to her like something that was never going to happen so why get distracted is traction yet But she became a a well known person in the United States. Always turning up at at union events I'm building union membership and during this period she adopted this persona of Mother Jones she would arise. Is you think character work. She she she really did. She would kind of arrive in town and she had she had this sort of tone way where she you know. Almost Infanta L- is the man by calling them her boys. She's squeezing Keith. Since she put herself up in in the very powerful powerful position of of a loving mother that made both the Union members feel like a lot of affection for her but also made her somewhat unimpeachable on the national stage. She wasn't there wearing dungarees. And you know being a masculine figure that could have divided public opinion she. She's a nice older lady. She was and she started dressing in a very matron leeway because he's not that old he's choose not that old but she starts in a four rating her age. A very unusual thing. I think for anyone to do at any time. But he's a special forties to start describing herself as being in her sixties in order to create this personage of Mother Jones. That's great that she's working on some new sketch characters. It's pretty hot stuff right. I'm imagining looking like Dana. Carvey maybe with the WIG on or something. She's a church radio type. When was the last time you watched your home movies if you're like most there's a box in your closet of videotapes film reels and photos? That don't get watched worse. They're degrading. Hi I'm nick and I'm Adam. Ten years ago we started legacy box to help families convert their aging media to digital title. Here's how it works. Phil Legacy box with your camcorder tapes film roles and photos we've professionally digitize and send them back on. DVD's thumb drives or the cloud ready to watch and share. Legacy box is the world's largest most trusted home movie and photo digitize earlier over four hundred and fifty thousand families of US legacy box and we've been featured on Good Morning America Caracal Ray and the today show dust off those recorded moments and preserve your family's history so it can be easily passed down for generations experienced peace of mind and enjoy reliving reliving the glory days order your legacy box today visit legacybox dot com slash forty and for a limited time. Get forty percents off your order. That's legacybox dot COM mm slash forty for forty percent off legacybox dot com slash forty. She had a big effect on on on the Mining Union. She showed up at a lot of those But a lot of those coal mine protests that I mean there was a in West Virginia in particular in Pennsylvania there there was a whole period where like in northern West Virginia. Most of the coal mines had were unionized but in southern West Virginia down around the Kentucky border very mountainous terrain very rural very isolated. And the the mines down there were far enough away that they hadn't been unionized yet. So miners in the north coal doing coal mining. We're getting paid read a lot more and working under better conditions than miners in the south because the the southern coal mines had a company store they had been able to keep out the rabble rouser dad and so when when labor unions tried to get in there it was the owner class sort of sought. What is a last stand kind of situation you know? It was the last redoubt and to to organize those areas would have been you know. It's the same argument argument that owners make always and they make it today. They made it here in Seattle about the fifteen dollars. An hour minimum wage that we enacted a couple years ago so the argument is always the same. What's bad for business bad for America and if we do this if we pay people two dollars an hour more if we cut working working hours to eight hours a day we will no longer be profitable and we'll have to close and everyone will lose their jobs? How do you like it now? And nowadays you can say some other place. Well you know it just means that all the business go to China and China and it's always been thus right. This is always the argument of management. It is the ball and go home. We cannot give you these these a concession. We'd love to we would but we'll have to close and you'll all be out of work and your children were we'll start your crappy job or no job and I think the history of work demonstrates that when Labour exact some of these concessions businesses generally stay open so many people even on the sensible select one at Seattle's fifteen dollars minimum wage to fail terribly. Well Yeah because there was. You know the the sensible left set well to and they're going to end up making less because they lose their tips and all this stuff and you know it was six months of people trying to figure out whether it be give tips or not. They're all those restaurant owners were like. We now include tips in the cost of the meal because blow and then then the waiters and bartenders were saying the owners are taking thirty. percent of dentists is now just like so so sometimes they would just add a surcharge. After so it wouldn't even be in the cost on the menu. You know it would be there'd be a thing of the bottom said and we add such twenty percent to every meal. It's not your choice. Yeah no tipping. But also we're not gonNA actually raise our prices because that would look bad by the turn of the century nine thousand nine hundred one mother Jones had started to crusade crusade on behalf of female workers and children in the factories. There was There were still a lot of children as part. Part of the workforce in fact something on the order of one sixth of all kids in America had a job. Wow in one thousand nine hundred one. I wish my kids had a job. Jellison has got a couple of jobs. Wade my daughter could do around here like emptying the dishwasher. Once in a while kill him. You know she knows how to do it. I taught her how to make coffee. which was my i? Think my signature move so because she she likes it because it feels like an adult thing so I can say go make coffee. And she'll make pretty halfway halfway decent cup on your neighbor on your cup. No G. Like Jim every every every cup in this house has my picture stenciled but there were you know. This was also an era of textiles and textile mill. And a lot of that work was done in by teenage girls children. The their hands could get in to the machine there little hands. It's no piercer. Uh that's right and so so. She attempted mother. Jones attempted to make this a caused CELEB- lab but she discovered that in trying to publicize it and popularized. The notion. That children shouldn't have jobs. She realized that by this point in time the capitalist intertwined network of the owner owner class meant that most millowners also were stockholders in newspapers and so none of the newspapers would cover during this period a lot of the labor agitation because it was a because it really was a sort of a backroom deal there reporters wanted to cover up at the editor's would put her on the front page. Some of the child labor stuff must be a hard sell for the working class as well. Because what you're really saying is you know maybe three of the incomes in your household should not be should not be there right. It'd be better for America if your kids were at school but it's GonNa cut your income and a half to take the kids out of the factories and the women out of the factories does has sort of paternal is work But this was also during an era of education reform so the idea the American notion the meritocratic idea that education will lift you out of pot. Kids will have a better life if I can get them out of the factory that a school right and so so there were public schools and that was that was a social movement and the idea that these children were working in factories essentially really dooming themselves to a lifetime of you know severed fingers and what mercury poisoning. While Kitwe Affluent Kids were going to school Colin and bettering their lives rushing hooper. The stick that became. That's right using their roller skate key. That became a part of the part of the language which of the organization or of the or the organizing movement. I guess once the kids are out of the factories wages. Go Up for laughed and and you know work becomes skilled work become skilled. Now this is also happening during a period when the the industrialization and the mechanization Asian of work is happening pace. A lot of these jobs are getting are obligated coming automated right. But her mother Jones's this is a when she realized that she was not getting any traction in her protests organized a march a children's crusade to to March from Philadelphia to Theodore Roosevelt's home in Oyster. Sure Bay New York President Time. It's kind of a long walk pretty long walk across New Jersey. It's no hands across America but it ends across New Jersey. It is is a long walk and during the whole and so then of course the newspapers had to cover this this giant march of of children and young girls who were marching to. Tr's house he's president. At the time she tried to get his attention and And never did get a satisfying response from him but it did now make the newspapers and and And started to stoke public opinion to To the degree that that laws began to change the eight hour workday had been instituted by this point but excuse me the to the movement to end child labor then really took hold as a result of her agitation and it was then during this sort of pre war period. We've talked about this. A lot in recent omnibuses omnibus by the I'm going to get so many letters saying hang onto by nineteen twelve nineteen. Thirteen was a time. When the into the national consensus labor unions had had if effectively become a political force in the United States? But there were still these holdouts and and this was in the cold. War's were still going on. But there was a there was an extremely galvanizing. Fight called the the the paint Creek Cabin Creek Coal Strike and Mary Era Mother Jones was a national figure so much so that she he had been denounced on the Senate floor as the most dangerous woman in America and she would bounce from protests to protest kind of like a Al Sharpton. You'd call you call her Erin. Yeah and the Pink Creek Cabin Creek. This was a situation where the miners had come down to this granular level. The minors that worked on Paint Creek AAC. We're being paid two and a half cents more than the miners on Cabin Creek. Because one group was unionized and the other one is Pennsylvania West Virginia and And you know the Baldwin Fettes Detective Agency was in there shooting people and it was a big Hullabaloo and mother Jones arrives and is arrested but the governor had declared martial law so she was arrested by the military military. POW and subjected to a court martial weight. And I'd never I didn't realize that a civilian could be court martial right now. I have a new goal like I've never thought I was eligible for court martial. Now I kind of want to do it. Well you need military law. I you need to go somewhere. Where Martial Law's declared Claire? Let them get in trouble. Getting a major city during a Godzilla movie. And I don't think I don't think there's enough to be burglar burglar something you have to do something. That that warrants a military very tribunal officer with a hat or something but she was sent to. She was sentenced to twenty years in prison. WHOA now she only? It was very symbolic right because she went. She was kind of held in in the house. Arrest Status this huge movement loves this the just loved it it and it actually resulted in some reforms. She was released after a couple of months three months. Maybe as as the Senate started to to Roman everyone recognized and I think the owners the owners recognized that they were on the losing end of this battle you know history St the arc of history bent toward justice in this instance and she you know she was released and and reform started to happen. Within the coal workday they took the money and spread of that equals just like the Bible and prophets suggests not cool. I in fact later on Not that long afterwards The coal strikes and the coal the energy of the Labor movement in the mining industry. The shifted shifted focus to Colorado. Where a lot of the the more active in the bigger minds and the and the nonunionized minds were sure? We're all in that sort of the rocky mountain states now and often. What would happen is strikers in in company towns scenarios the response from the owners would-be to fire them and kick them out? And so you have. You have a whole class of strikers who are living way out on the frontier the frontier and and all of a sudden they're fired and detectives arrive and expel them from their homes because their homes are owned by the company and then their script they don't get paid. Their script is no longer valid. Aladin the company stores that are in the middle of nowhere middle. They don't have options so in the case of a there's an incident in Ludlow Colorado where there were four thousand or more families minor families living in a tent city as part of their strike and the the The mine owners RESP- like drove through the tent city on a train. I guess it was on either side of the train tracks. You don't build your tent city on a real on the trains tracks on either side. And they they drove this armored train through there with machine guns shooting into the tents and it was you know it was mother Jones that called attention to it and actually actually John D. Rockefeller travelled out Johnny Rockfeller. who had been consistently one of the villains in all of these stories actually went out to ludlow Colorado investigated or software of firsthand? What had happened? And then he began to reform his own. His own conglomerates to incorporate new labor policies. That's interesting that the media attention. Might you know convinced ten thousand people back East but what you really need is to for. John D. Rockefeller they get on the train. Yeah and I think that was a personal response to mother Jones's entreaties and her extremely she was such a great aurait or she was by now of course a national figure and had been for decades. We don't know he was just embarrassed. Earth is harder three sizes Sunday. Maybe maybe both things right. Maybe his little dog pulled that sleigh full of presence up from WHOVILLE custody. No one's trying to convince Mark Zuckerberg the he's he's doing something wrong. Really the best you can do is embarrass. Yeah Elon Musk you know. Make Basil's look bad by showing the awful thing that Amazon delivery delivery people people have and no longer works right but I feel like once you reach at it ruined Jewish tipping point where rockefellers already sitting in his office going is is this worth it is machine gunning workers worth it or should we just pay them two cents an hour more. They're like well Morgan. Machine getting workers. Yeah you gotta you gotTa keep up with the Joneses. Keep up with the mother Joneses. So yeah that's right In one thousand nine hundred thirty and mother other Jones did not keep a Entirely abreast of the changes in the Labor movement. You know we talked today about the Socialists. The so the rise of the socialist now in in early two thousand twenty book. You know what there's a there's a lot of of of of energy at least vocal energy directed toward the idea of socialism now as a political means and that was true of this era to American Socialists have long been sort of split into two factions. There the Social Democrats and then there are the Democratic Socialists. That seems confusing the well. They need better names they do. But but they've they've really galvanized around these two terms so we have to endure it and we have to and I'm often confused fine. The Social Democrats are the ones that are socialists. But ultimately they're Democrats this European style anti-capitalism. No they want to reform capitalism awesome. They want to they want to change the wealth inequality they want to restrict the the the concentration of capital in a in and one percent. They WANNA THEY WANNA have a more distributive than collective kind of policy not with. That's not centralization or nationalization is eight of industry you raise taxes or improve safety nets or whatever whereas Democratic Socialists. Rose Emoji want a Wants to transform the whole system they are anti-capitalist and they want to bring a kind of centralized economy economy as you said like a like a governed economy this is me and my Marxist. Dad's we get together and talk about Trotskyite ideology you and your Marxist. We're talking about the dialectic during halftime and then you you pull out your phone you check your bank account. That's right. And so this is the this the schism and Pearl for a lot of the time. There's a I think. Democratic Socialists than and Social Democrats combined enforces in to become the democratic socialist. Democrats it's an unholy alliance right and and because the names are so confusing. And and because I think even within the membership there's a lot of confusion and there's definitely more internal squabbling within a movement than a rounded because because often although democratic socialist have a much more a much pure ideology they often in America have have to make concessions that really go against the purity of their of their beliefs. It's something I did not know until twitter taught me there. You know if there's one thing that leftists dislike more than conservativism liberals anyway so so you know mother. Jones didn't navigate all of all of that to carefully and she as she got older. She made some mistakes. You always got. You've always got the old guy from the you know. The first wave wait feminists showing up or the the you know the the grandfather of Some LGBT rights movement or the Civil Rights Guy who has not kept up up and said something to Mike that she shouldn't have like this. This happens in all kinds of activists move what's mother Jones's well in nineteen thirteen officially focused in one thousand nine hundred eighty. She celebrated her one hundredth birthday. That's so unusual. Even today with nineteenth century genetics. It was especially really unusual given that she was only eighty seven years old. I never took off the church lady ways you never did and she was oh she was roundly celebrated for hundred birthday. It was a big. You know sort of national alert flip. Wilson's Geraldine turned one hundred or something. Like Geraldine there just wasn't as much in there weren't as many true thor's there wasn't as much birtherism as there. And so but she had you know she'd been sort of somewhat sidelined by the by the direction the Labor movement took you know after after some of these schisms between the Democratic Socialists in the Social Democrats. This was during the era of the rise of the American Communist Party that we saw That we saw in bold relief after World War. Two when you know when there were a list of eighty nine communists in the State Department people were actually worried about four hundred communists or however many McCarthy found what was it some number of CO number. There's different every time he said it. That's what I learned from entering Canada but W- when she died she was not a figure she wasn't into figure in scandal but she was a She she you know she had been bypassed by the time but because the labor movement continue need to evolve as as time went on her reputation post mortem. started to be re rehabilitated and She started to be recognized as a hero of the Labor movement and at some point a group of of unions got together and built her a a big sort of pink marble obelisk where she'd been buried kind of under a humble headstone take and now Kamari K.. Woman you know. She was against the she was against the vote. She was always you know but you know she has this obelisk that's flanked on either side by a By statues of Minors in mining reposes Chicago and and then her reputation continued to grow There is A. There's a holiday devoted to her now. There is yeah the to celebrate Mother Jones Day when you don't you didn't give me a card. You didn't get any flowers. Her quote celebrate. Mother's Day is that what you're talking about. Is this more mothers. Take them through it is. It's it started with mother. Mother Jones no mother's Day or it's it's what is it. It's not international. Women's Day is is that also mother Jones Day. Maybe oh no. It's it's an October it's A. It's a miners day. Okay minors which is also called Mother Jones Day because she's the center of that movement it became. It became the the the slogan of the of minors everywhere which was Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living but I think her greatest legacy was in the nineteen seventies Mother Jones magazine named themselves after her and became probably the preeminence radical magazine of at least our formative years and still around still online we periodically. I don't WanNa say going strong. Because that's what the magazine closes. It's nobody's going strong but mother Jones is still important influential. fluential voice in the left. No doubt they pray for the dead but I bet they do fight like hell for the living and that concludes kids mother. Jones entry. Seven five dot M. K.. Zero three three three certificate number one two nine five two in the omnibus. Now before we leave you we want to remind you. The people of our era could follow John on twitter. Instagram John Roderick I was at Ken Jennings collectively actively we were at omnibus project listeners. A appreciative listeners of the show Congress on facebook as the Future Orleans and some kind of similarly named forum on Reddit as well We welcomed communication digital communication from our listeners. Owners at the omnibus project gmail.com physical items could be sent to the omnibus project. Po Box I five seven four four shoreline Washington. Nine eight one five five. Our correspondent sparky sent us this from his usually road tripping around the United States is a trucker. I think but this is from a cave in believes Oh sure I know him sparks ter- he wanted to go there because of these scuba diving and jungle adventures puns. He got a keychain that says you better believe lease it looks like a great cave but it's not a great. That's why you went to believes I. I have serious doubts. Feel like you could just get the keychain without during plane heard very nice things about belise I am I'm going you better release it. I'm going in February. Oh I think I want to very cave and my wife does not right. It's you have to swim through things and squeeze through things. I don't like that she doesn't she's I don't like that. It's a sin. Not of some kind. I'm guessing are you. I think the the Mayans believed it was the entrance to the underworld. Are you CLAUSTROPHOBIC. Yes I do not like going through small spaces to get into space. I can't get out of without going back through a small space and yet you were born once never happen again. First words ever again So you can send us physical items there there. If you wish to send US financial support we are so grateful that the show of now in its independent state appears to be a going concern and that's because of the generosity and affection shown by our contemporaneous listeners if you would like to make a donation and avail L. yourself of some of the perks that come with it a monthly addenda addendum. Show show Dente than it's eight or nine months. Not Enough you first of all congratulations on your eight hour. Workday don't work but if you crave more content that's one of the perks that comes with donation at patron dot com slash omnibus project. Is that everything I have to just get longer every time. It's like one of those players Campfire songs that gets longer every retirement. I've always hated them. Ninety nine bottles omnibus most omnibus listeners. I think are are dissecting in crawdads or they're installing like plates on a satellite or something. They're working they're. They're in their craft union. While they listen yeah they're able to listen to the show and also do. They're extremely complicated. Technical Science job. You know why you can do that. Mother Jones Union negotiated rights to listen to. I'm not on the job. Future links from our vantage point in your distant past from within our eight hour workweek we have no idea how long our civilization survive. We work a lot harder than eight hours a week. I'll tell you that much. I don't want to depress donations. By by bragging about our leisurely lifestyle. We work hard for a living. And you'd better treat that's right. We hope and pray that the catastrophe we fear may never come but if the worst comes soon this recording like all recordings may have been a final providence allows. We hope to be back with you soon for another entry in Yup.

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Wealth Academy Podcast - Episode #70 - Wendy H Jones Shares Extraordinary Book Writing and Marketing Expertise

Wealth Academy Podcast - Wealth Is More Than Just Moneyhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/paullawrencevann

27:04 min | 20 hrs ago

Wealth Academy Podcast - Episode #70 - Wendy H Jones Shares Extraordinary Book Writing and Marketing Expertise

"Welcome to the wealth academy podcast. This podcast helps you discover. Wealth is more than just money. It consists of several empowering components that make up wealth and your personal and business life. Now here's your host hall. Everyone this is your host. Paul lawrence van host of wealth academy podcast. Glad to have everyone in the community here today and what we're going to talk about as writing books and marketing bucks and we have no one else better to do this to share this with us. Then wendy aged jones. Good morning wendy. How you doing today. i am very well. thank you. I feel privileged to be here to be joining you in maryland. Even though i'm here in scotland the honor is all mine. And and wendy is from scotland's fourth largest city dundee and. We're going to talk a little bit about her bio and then we're going to get started into the interview and wendy is the president of the scottish association of writers and runs to writing groups and scotland the writers city riders dundee and history writers online. She is also a renowned international public speaker and available for speaking engagements and to run workshops. She is the host of the writing and marketing show podcast and as a writing and marketing coach. Her first online course get started marketing. Your book released an october twenty twenty and she has the c o of author preneurs accelerate academy an online membership to help. Riders develop their craft and learn the business of writing. And that's not all. She's also a prolific author writer speaker and a great leader on top of that. So we're gonna get started in this interview right now. Wendy are you ready to go ready tastic. So wendy welcome to wealth academy podcast. Please share your backstory. As to how at an early age she would provide it with an adult library card from your local library. In the scottish city of dundee. This story is going to excite me more than anyone on the planet stories. We're very feisty. In scotland we don't take things lying down you know especially the women. Were you know we. We got away. Well obser- natalie leader. And i could read by the time i was three and my mother wanted to get a library card on. You allowed a library card when you were three when i was young you can. You can help it when you're born but you couldn't then you have to wait till your five and at school but my mother got her own way and took me with it and i got a cart and by the time i was ten i'd moved on from all the children's books onto the adult books and library art which is also something else again that he was sixteen great. I tell you that that has to. That story really warms my heart because it talks about the importance of reading. Yeah and valuable and i want the young people who listening to really learn from the experience that wendy jones hat that it would take you to places. You've never been before and thank you for sharing that story. Wendy no worry. I mean i love reading and i'm passionate by begun healthy and tastic beautiful now. Please share how being adventurous result in joining the raw navy training to be a nurse and then joined the army and being assigned to places such as hong kong and israel which provided great opportunities to travel in the far and middle east which is an education to itself and it played a role. And you become an arthur so if you can share about how adventurism is really a part of who you are adventure. I mean when i was about fifteen i showed a farm in and said the dia wanted to be a nurse in the royal navy. I just filled it in after the careers. But i didn't tell anybody. I was doing it and then i got into few much to my mother. Surprise gospel which is near portsmouth in england and she said why are you going to go there. I said have gotten into joined the royal navy walter nasty when what celebrate about it and i was only sixteen anyway but that wasn't even quite sixteen and so i got an interview and i was accepted on joined oil navy. Then i am. I was lucky. I got to germany. Gibraltar than i laughed and got my first paycheck outside the military though. I don't think much to this. And i joined the army as an officer and i got to go all over the world. I was really fortunate. I got to go to hong kong to germany. I go to israel. I got strikers and gibraltar. Where did i never got to go. And all of those twenty years was to war. I got to travel extensively. And i mean extensively when i was in hong kong went on thirty two different holidays and a lot of the more adventurous and i can tell you to by being an jungle and tropical storm tigers and things like that goodness podcast about you but during that time i was telling everyone about my ventures. I was writing them down and i wrote all the time as to what i was doing in. Why was doing it and this is what i've always been a storyteller and i've always wanted to tell the stories and to make the more adventurous than perhaps they may be may have been kind of lies us for sure but i tell a story and you always embellish things to make the story better so i'd never turned away from a bit of adventure and if somebody says do you want to do x. i'll go yes i'll do it and then you think oh my goodness well i agree to. We'll tell you that is really exciting because again you. Eleven your passion. You love to travel onto bear exotic locations a lot of times If if we're not in the military we otherwise would not get to visit knows location and then stay for an extended period of time so to me. That really speaks to your passion for life. And it's just wonderful wonderful. So let's a dev into your writing. Novels specifically centered around. When i want to start with the five series of the inspector shona mackenzie mysteries. That sounds so exciting and at alliance with you read it adult crime novels in your youth. What procedures are your stories toll from. And what are the names of some of your books if you will please. Yeah well the detective inspector showing mckenzie mysteries of police procedural but they're unusual because you get to see them from the point of view about the police on the killer. Now you don't know who the killer is what you know what they're doing why they're doing it so you get to see their story as well as police story on serial killers all of them not novels my head which is what hang because there's a law dead bodies and they say by what i would just like to say. I've never killed anybody in my life that someplace solve some crimes three can't anyway It takes you to be honest to be in the mind of a serial killer as quite dark place to be. Said he'd get to be our unique in that you're getting to see both sides of the stories on because of the the first war journal titles killers just started by accident. The first to have called chillers can't dine and killers collapsed. I was doing talk to liability on one of the people that was there said. Oh so what's your next to be cold. And i said killers will ever. It wasn't the went but that doesn't begin with a c. It's not meant to note is meant to the second. What's up to start with seafood. But basically you're you're examining how the police work on. How the killer. Words killer works on the killer caught killers Killers cross killers taught killers. Chillers kept seven is going to be killers curse sin so it's really a psychological. Thrillers are similar to what we see in the states. We have the public broadcast service. They have a lot of the -tective inspector movies. That television shows that. Come on here which is really exciting. And of course you know. I watched them all me. Just one of my favorite programs essentially ncis. Yes yes i like those shows and because it's just is trying to unfold the mystery what really happened and as you stated going inside the police head in terms of how they're trying to figure it and the killers head in terms of what he leaves for you to solve in the long run so i i find it to be very exciting. So what you're saying is with your seventh book. Is this the one that you release in february. Twenty twenty one. The title of that one is again. Chandler's curse curse satan dundee a new orleans or new orleans medica to exciting places. Been to new orleans. Many times i went for the food. I went for the festival. Oh very good very good. I'm really enjoying this. So let's now move on to cass. Clay more investigates share with listeners to essence of this series. And what does it entail. Cast claimed moore is completely completely different from the detective. Inspector shauna mckenzie completely. First of all it's humorous crime if anybody's ever read john. Ivanovich is stephanie plum series. While the americans are saying that casts claim or is a scottish. Stephanie plum which. I'm glad they're saying not because that was what i say to do. Estimates soon now cast clay more a right motorbike writing expert who've been hard headed to private detective agency an accident way. Hires an ex con dwarf in octogenarian is just a lot of fun she has no clue what she's doing. The ex con dwarf knows motivated than she does. Because he's been there at knows what's happening but it's just a lotta k- i really a lotta fun. And some other. She manages to solve the mystery. Very nice but i can see that i can actually see the characters as you explain in them. Read head I live closer to holly ship. So i can have seen that before. So that's that's really excited as well and can when we look at how you coming up with this type of creativity. What does that come from me to write a novel in of itself. I've written some books too. But i haven't tried that novel. How where does that inspiration. Come from well. Inspiration comes from everywhere really. You might read something at some point and somehow or other it stuck in your brain and to be honest my first book in the detective inspector. Shauna mckenzie miss. Today's just one hundred seven dream to be honest. And i thought oh that would make a really good book and i went from there. So you're starting point is to come up with a concept and then you just take it from there and just let the brick right itself really in the characters takeover. Some to be creative. You'd i need to be you. Need to be nausea. Really unique needs to read widely. You need to watch everything that's going on around you you know. I was on a train. Once in i was in first class but for some reason i must have got cheap deal because i don't need normally travel awesome the train but i was in first class and some women was upset about something. I'm not entirely. Not when i say upset. She was angry about something. I don't know what he was getting. A boat was known to do me. But and i thought i wonder what could happen. Eventually if she is angry about this and suddenly she disappears and she disappears off the train and nobody knows where she's gone because the train hadn't stopped when she disappeared and things like your brain just goes rage. Strange ways vity love it. It's really amazing. I'm really like really enjoying this. So i don't get to speak to experts like yourself about this novels about these type of things now. I also want to pass onto our listeners. that Really focused with your family. And your two nieces. Who was so proud of you. For ben and arthur great joy well in. I hope unfair. That gorgeous notable older now one of them's nineteen and the other one's going to be seventeen in april. You know. the they challenge the fred's oh my autism my idea right spooks who series and things you know which is great and come to my book signings. But but that's florida mysteries. Which young adults through about them because obviously one's a boy one's a girl but i cheat aspects of them to shape teenagers. You know because being around teenagers you think oh well that would make a good thing for book. Cannot a my. Niece's i love later. delightful sign. Yeah i have a daughter seventeen. My son is fourteen. So i get a chance to be in that world for which is a lot of fun. But thanks for sharing that with cheeses and please provide a synopsis of fergus. And flora series sheer what the essence of this series is about well in florida at a couple of seventeen year olds. Who scotland Things that you'd want to do but you never lent to. Because it's dangerous. Settings accepted so basically in the first book which is called the targets carpet is being rebranded in new covers and going with a new publisher. And it's going to be called Dagger but basically what happens is is it did i get on an ancient egyptian doctor is a museum in dundee and it gets stolen Dundee so the only people that can find this dog at and break the curse at a couple of teenagers coke fed sent flora on their dates as a say they do everything that not meant to do running around on quad bikes old enough to be on court by on the rights. But yesterday things just getting into everything and the the causing mischief but they're not causing mischief. Sounds like a lot of fun. Isn't like scooby doo very fun. A lot of fun. I love it and a windy. Let's take a look at the children and children. Readers please provide a synopsis of your book. Berty the buffalo for listeners. Sheryl the buffalo is basically a scottish water. Buffalo not doesn't mean it scottish because there's no such thing as a sculptor but he was born on. What in real life. He was born on a buffalo farm firemen into scotland scotland and he ran away in real life and was runner. I'm scotland donis on foot two weeks which i'm the bbc which is the british broadcasting station at picked up on this. And what's called colbert and pick kids all over the world. Where saying has he been founder. Has he been fanget. Then somebody said you should write a book about her and someone talked me on facebook instead of wendy jones. We'll do it so i thought little of it then. I was asked to write the book. And i got a publisher on. The book. came out bertie. The buffalo his basically the story of what bad The baby water buffalo doing running around scotland on his own and take some beams up because children's picture job was a theme theme of there's theme of not feeling belong is a theme of looking out for each other unanswered theme of actually. You're better home because everybody loves you. They're really That's great but i tell you. Pbs does put out some really great quality programming. And i always watch it. I've watched it for decades great program their shows. It's just unbelievable. Young people were not saying it. They're missing out. That's all i can tell them. So let's Just a bit into your books. Writing matters that what's included in this series. Seen a couple of your covers on those as well i. I'm also writing in marketing coach. And i do speaking on writing in marketing. I speak at conferences. All over the world. In fact i was meant to be on a twelve week to the states last year butts. It didn't happen over it and soon when i was doing speaking this. You've got books to go with it. So i brought on a marketing which has been rebranded as marketing maters on. It's to help people market more effectively and then i'm also an nlp coach. Which is noodles ristic programming. So many pe- trained on ion but also a book called motivation martyrs which is to motivate people to write every day on. Its three hundred sixty six exercises based on out p help you right every day one should be able to write at three and a couple of both this barrosa in there. Yeah i know. I've written a three solo books three co authored and people. Ask me well Do you ever get a block. I says the exact opposite. I can't stop once. I start writing. I can't stop love right. Yes i love to write. So let's move a bit into a some of the things that you're doing. I wanna talk about your podcast just a bit in terms of what it entails. You have writing marketing show. Let's talk about that a bit. In what what your listeners community receive. Listen to the podcast there. Yeah well. I was doing a radio. Show wendy's bus and it was local radio and i basically interviewed authors about their books and it was into. It was a bit desert island. Discs meets books really on people with less than they were talking about the fi- music choices and they talk about the books but then for various reasons it was taking me quite a long time to go up to the. It's taken me over another to get up there. It was taking me marriage. And i thought well am. I a podcast. I can do it from home. But i wanted something. That would actually help writers on with help people to land into right so i decided to do the right thing. In market in short it covers all aspects of the business of right tank so every week. There's a different speaker Who i interview on. They can be writers or the money. Experts are podcast Most of them do write books as well on they talk about different aspects of writing so basically takes you through everything that you could need about the business of writing a marketing on publishing books absolutely a lot of people very inquisitive about it For me for example at kept saying why was in the air force. I want to write a book to write a book. And then once i wrote the book i wrote two books in one month. I just went crazy right aid. Wake up at three in the morning. One chapter per day and everything worked out jess great but have a source. Such as yours is just invaluable. Because it takes the guesswork out. What do i do next. How do i do it. What resources to call on so that that works out really great now you also have an online course titled get started in marketing your buck. Let's talk about that just a bit. Wendy well again. People i'm a writing martin coach and people were paying me for one to ones on all of this and i well i could give this in a course and people can access it at one time that can access it forever more when you buy the course than you got it for. Whatever yet a not way they don't have to think. Oh what did they say can't remember. You know it's there. And i thought that would be useful so i i mean i'm i'm into i'm a geek anyway. I love computers. I loved anything online. I love anything electronic. Commonality a doctor. And i i was. I worked in education when i was in the services. I was the head of pre registration education. So i'm used to doing stuff online at what teacher training shoes to do stuff online and combined the two. I did all that that is outstanding. Because i i again. It gives someone that opportunity and they can do it at their own pace. Absolutely yes evergreen. So they can always go back to it. Refer to and bill from there. It is a great way to learn as well really yeah. I've written a couple of online courses as well and it shocked me when i wrote it. So let's talk a bit about the fact that you would. A ceo of other preneurs accelerate academy. Let's talk about that. So alex skill learn even more about you again not went back to the coaching. I was doing because people were asking. The same questions. Wanted the same input then. I realized that what people that wanted to let them how to write a book. There were people who wanted to learn more about During online who wanted to learn more about the business of rights anglo wanted to take their rights and further unwanted. Nobody while you know again. I could do this as a a monthly membership. So people pay a monthly membership and for that they got access to all my courses so that are more courses now and that they can get access to it through that they can get one they get they get every week. There's an online master class or face creek live or coaching call group coaching. So they get once a week input. And it's just the one monthly membership so it saves money really because otherwise the pay me x. amount of dollars per hour. This wave access to everything china across the board. Yes yes that's fantastic and having that opportunity to go in there and they have pure accountability having won some strategy sessions etc absolutely. Yes that is invaluable. Priceless is really the word for that. So wendy our time is coming to a close. Is there anything else you would like to share at this time and first of all i want to let you know. I am thrilled beyond measure to be able to interview you. I mean i'm really really just so proud to be able to do this. Well i was my honor. It really was. I was delighted when you invited me. Because you know being on a podcast like this. I hope i give value what i want to say is if people want to take anything away from this and they think oh. I want to write a book yet. The first step in writing a book everybody goes. I don't know where to start litter late. The first step is to pick up a piece of paper and a pencil and start writing. That's how you start writing even if you start with once upon a time you know. Just start because it's as easy as not now. Obviously it's a lot more complex in the long run but you can start writing normal. Anybody tell you you're not a writer because people think they can't right because their teachers told them so. It's school what do they know. Exactly 'cause features. I'm not getting it. Teachers teachers a phenomenal. Absolutely just a lot of things. They have no right to tell anybody. They can't write a totally agree. And course the meaning is. You're not writing the way. I want you to write for this exam correct. That's and that's what they should be saying. No you can't write because everybody gets sixty activity uptown. Took them on. If you want to write stott writes on thoughts that way to you know that oh quote. Everyone has a book inside of them. That's very true. It is absolutely to everybody has now. I've had somebody say another bit to that. And i don't agree with either. Some of the books should stay there. That's another point. Everybody has a book to in them now. Every book should be published this difference. You're absolutely needs to be published. So everybody has a buchen site them and they can write it on. Its even if the only write it themselves to write that book absolutely. I totally agree. And thank you so much for sharing that because again it can inspire and motivate a lot of people in empower people to become authors and in addition to speakers as well so i thank you so much for that. So wendy jumps thank you so much for being a wonderful guest. The wealth academy podcasts community. Honest your presence. Our friend have a wonderful new year. And may it be your very best. -joyed interviewing her and real quick. I want to just go of her background. Just a bit here. She's from the beautiful city of dundee. Which it's the fourth largest city in scotland. And she is the arthur art of several books novels such as diy shona mackenzie mysteries. And cass claymore investigates fergus and flora mysteries birdie. The buffalo writing matters and much much more and so she's not only an author writer and speaker but i look at her as a great leader in her industry as well so Wendy h jones. Thank you so much. And i really look forward to following you even more and recommend the new to the people in the wealth academy podcasts community. And thank you all right and this is going to end. Today's episode and exciting one with wendy. H jones helling from dundee scotland beautiful country of scotland. And i want to thank all of you recommend this your friends if family your colleagues and have them tuned into this episode. Seventy of wealth academy podcast. My name is paul van. Go out to apple podcasts. And rate and review this particular episode. Give windy as jones of five star rating. Why out there and we really appreciate it. My time is up. And i thank you for yours again. My name is paul. On's van host of wealth academy podcasts. Have a great day everyone else. You've never signed the to everything that was mentioned. You will find the show notes on my landing. Page subscribe to the wealth academy podcast rate overview. The podcast on itunes.

wendy scotland wendy jones preneurs accelerate academy dundee Paul lawrence van scottish association of writer hong kong royal navy Wendy buffalo shona mackenzie gibraltar new orleans shauna mckenzie Ivanovich navy Shauna mckenzie germany army
#109: ENCORE  Breakthroughs in Cancer Research with Dr. David Hong

Health Care Rounds

52:39 min | 6 months ago

#109: ENCORE Breakthroughs in Cancer Research with Dr. David Hong

"This is an encore presentation of healthcare rounds. Today, we are rebroadcasting episodes forty four and forty six with Dr David Hong Associate Vice President of Clinical Research at MD Anderson Cancer. Center. This episode was originally uploaded on April eleventh two, thousand and nineteen. Welcome to healthcare rounds the podcast serving you the INS and outs of health policy and business topics as well as our take on the rapidly evolving healthcare delivery ecosystem. I'm your host John Marceca Co Darmon Research Group and faculty associate at the W. T. Carey School of business and the College of Health Solutions at Arizona State University. This week I'm speaking with Dr David S Hong Deputy Chair of Investigational Cancer Therapeutics at the University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center. Where he also serves as associate vice president for clinical research and clinical medical director of the clinical. Center for therapy. Dr Hong received a bachelor's degree in biology, from Yale University and a medical degree from Albert Einstein, college, of medicine, he completed an internship in residency at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital, and a medical oncology fellowship at MD Anderson during which time he was appointed chief medical. Oncology fellow. In two thousand and five, he joined. MD Anderson's faculty. Dr Hong is the recipient of many awards including the two thousand four young investigator award from the American Society of Clinical Oncology he has published more than two hundred and seventy articles in peer reviewed journals. So To kick US off. Tell me a little bit about your role. Within MD Anderson Oh I am the deputy director of what's called the Department of Investigational Cancer Therapeutics. It's a specific unit within MD Anderson dedicated to doing early drug development studies in cancer, and these studies are really the first in human studies oftentimes phase ones that they have evolved in some sense. over the last several years. but the steps after animal testing. That goes into cancer patients, and so we run that unit or department within the institution and I'm also the associate vice president trump research. And in that role I, I've played a number of different roles Do a number of things. One is one of the important things. I think one of the challenges I. Think Academic Medicine is. You know we have large bureaucratic structures have been trying to get some of these trials up and running as quickly as possible and I'll talk a little bit about that in context of how changing. But also some of these emerging challenges overall in oncology drug development it's it's been a challenge for us here to get trials of growing fast but we we have just recently. Relate implemented some. Key changes as that has. A. Lot to shrink our timelines. And I. Called in a number of things in that role, I help with managing grants, the internal grants that are being distributed to junior investigators and involved in kind of going through our clinical trials process. Here we have a huge number studies. You have close to three thousand files at Anderson Different Trials with our survey or treatment trials in. So a lot of details have to go through. In trying to help manage the infrastructure here at Anderson, which is one of the probably I would argue probably one of the largest in the world. So anybody WHO's watching the pharmaceutical industry has noticed a surge in cancer drug approvals in recent years, and some of these drugs are showing remarkable results and that's one of the reasons that I wanted to speak with you. was to get your insight from a research perspective how and why things have changed and can you talk about what's new in the last five to ten years and why the research landscape is so different today. Good question one you're absolutely right There's been really a record number of. Kinda new molecular entities, orphan drugs, both new and also generics by similar two, thousand eighteen. There was a total of. Oracle seventy six new indications for new drugs in cancer over the last five years and right now There is close to a thousand. Of Thousand Two hundred different agents or new molecular entities in clinical trials as of two thousand eighteen. But that's been that's been growing over the last. Decade. In two, thousand, eight, there was about seven hundred fifty but has been slowly climbing. Now it's close to twelve hundred and why is that? While part of that is too large extent is because we are reaping the harvest of molecular science and investment that has been in discoveries that have been. Implemented, over the last several decades, right At the Hanna Hanna Dot. Weinberg are scientists in college who wrote this a seminal review called the hallmarks of cancer in their first time occasion was in two thousand time they had listed the classic hallmarks, six hallmarks of cancer. But they republished the publication again in two thousand eleven. In the added, an additional four hallmarks cancer. tickly avoiding immune destruction that was one of their emerging hallmarks since then the discovery under pinning of the understanding of how cancer is so destructive has led to ways to target it. So you know I'm in Texas. So we talk about oil a lot, right? Right and We had we had a fracking event in two thousand eleven and that fracking event on that new technology was immunotherapy that was the first time when bloom Mab was approved in. Melanoma. And soon, afterwards, we had a number of. new immunotherapy agents, particular PD one inhibitors that augmented the Anti Taylor for bloom APP that led to obviously even more activity. And also then has emerged other things such as car t-cells, etc.. These numbers are probably out day but as of March of two thousand seventeen, there was close to a thousand one, hundred, twenty, two cancer immunotherapy combination trials while again, this is the individual agents I talked about the twelve hundred agents in two, thousand eighteen. So, there's been really an explosion of new trials new agents. In particular therapy, it's really transformed landscape for cancers that we never. Ever thought were GONNA be amenable immunotherapy such as long such as bladder I. Mean we we had some indication that melanoma was responsive to immunotherapy such as I'll to high-dose too but. those are oftentimes limited in really patients who can tolerate that drug, but these drugs are now. Have some side effects have relatively well tolerated. Third thing beyond the new molecules on immunotherapy in number three as rolling been in parallel to immunotherapy has been just the refinement and the ability to cut have molecular phenotype tumors. and. That's all the way from things like Brca mutations which we knew for a long time. But until just recently had been able to target patients with Bracken ARP inhibitors. And also other mutations that are relatively rare but are truly transformative such as entrance fusions. I was involved in the phase one, but also the New England journal Phase to and kind of. Paper. That was pivotal nor the studies that were pivotal in the approval of colour threatening, which is the first intrigue fusion inhibitor. And what's unique about this approval was that it was approved across all tumor types. irregardless of the type of cancer you had as long as you had entered fusion and so this was really the second type of that was approved What's call independent of histology or tumor type? The I was actually was called. pendulism have won the immunotherapy checkpoint inhibitors in a subset of tumors call MSI high. I'm coining this phrase but I I'm sure if you talk with other experts would say it truly is kind of this golden era of oncology drug development that we haven't seen for a while. So that that personalization that you're talking about I had a I was at a conference in their two doctors one that was. Really strong on clinical pathway development and the other one that was speaking about more the precision medicine, and it was really interesting to see these two different perspectives that they're mutually exclusive. But seeing these these two physicians talk about the advantages of. Ver- either standardization or personalization what are your thoughts on that I agree with you they're not mutually exclusive and I'm both of them are valuable in in many ways I think they will intersect as we become more personalized. So imprecise therapy I think one of the the reason that this is happening more and more is because actually know profiling molecular profiling tumors have become much much cheaper I remember when I was in resident in I think it was Around two thousand, two Francis Collins? Think Bill. Clinton and. Craig venter made an announcement that they was on national. TV. That they had done some Then this incredible, a- profiling of a human, a whole Xm sequencing or whole genomic sequencing of a person's whole genome right and I remember the reporter saying that it was a mere two billion dollars to to make this happen right? In what what they didn't really full tell it was they hadn't done i. think it was only the Exxon's I I may be in criteria, but they hadn't really fully profiled everything. It was they had profiled the vast majority of the genome. In and that technology has gotten increasingly better and cheaper than even silicon chips. You know there's that Moore's law. And you can get online now and you can get your whole xm sequence or a whole genome sequence for like under a thousand bucks. and. So that technology has just incredibly evolved to the point where we are. You know routinely getting that and all of our patients here in the Anderson. Recently made that announcement that they would pay for the mutational profile in there have been some incredible examples like the Lehrer tracking. Of example, that I mentioned to you that truly has shown that the advantages of kind of profiling tumors etcetera. The are still skeptics a the skeptics would argue that only a percentage of the patients were maybe even a small percentage of those patients actually benefit from personalize therapy, but that's an assumption that that's assuming the current technology and. The current drugs will stay the same and obviously that in my opinion is short-sighted, we will develop new drugs and they're all V more knowledge imitations that personalized therapy approach. I suspect will be much more a approach that we can follow, and this is being or out particular lung cancer or lung cancer for example, is really been being sliced into smaller pies as suit targeted therapy. So it's important to note that that that trend in technology impresses will continue and I suspect that. You know five years from now there will be many more targeted therapies, many more patients who may benefit from personalized therapy than than they are right now the vast majority of patients are still Kinda using standard you know chemotherapy in for example, the NC, guidelines are a very good guideline as to how we treat patients all the way from early stage later stage. So they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. I helped develop a something called a pourquoi protocol green tea constitutes member home that's actually a combination targeted therapy plus chemotherapy. Regimen that we we identified high activity and benefit in patients would be Rafi six, hundred, eighty colorectal cancer that has been now incorporated into the guidelines for colorectal cancer, and that is a pathway which on colleges used to make determinations as to how to treat patients. So these aren't mutually exclusive pathways. I suspect though that you know not just five years from now ten years or even further down line there may be even more nuance ways more complex ways in which we. Live pathways, personalized pathways. Whether it's using a guy right and use it utilizing things like whole genome profiling identified drugs that may cause too much Choksi or may Ashley and also benefit. The data that we use in the context of profiling tumors or using a profiling patients is really determine which patients may actually. Benefit rather than which patients may Ashley Gain Toxicity. So all of that is going to be incorporated in the future to make maybe even personalized pathways. So there may be really a convergence of the both of those. Processes. Interesting. I. Noticed. You're actually published MD Anderson actually publishes all of your pathways on on the website. Why find that's remarkable is as part of our research into different institutions I often run into people who I don't know if the word is proprietary, maybe it's third they're secretive about their pathways within their organization which I don't understand. Why that would be the case when certainly MD Anderson is. As I said publishing them for the world. So ahead, a an a recent conversation with another academic institution where many of their docks their careers advancing through research publishing and sometimes. At least according to this person, they struggle to get them to spend time with patients. Obviously MD Anderson is known for world class care as well as being renowned research institution. Do you find it difficult to do both wealthy face the same kind of challenges with your researchers. Yeah, I think I think that's that's an increasing challenge given the current reimbursement environment. But you know if you look at the vast majority of revenue and what you need to kind of cover operating costs think eighty five to ninety percent of that. Still comes from clinical revenue. Don't don't quote me on I. Don't think I know the exact number, but it's around there. Right. So the other like seven percent I think is like is research NCI. I'd sponsors, it's address the other three percent is philanthropy. We know the most academic centers recognize. Where their bread is being buttered Sir they you know continuing push academic. Departments and chairs ensure that they meet their clinical revenues targets, but as a academic institution and in order to attract people are interested in research. US Chair, need to kind of balance. All of that ensure that you know you have some time to do research but I will tell you that it is becoming increasingly more difficult. I mean, I you know if you don't have a grant in some of our departments, you're you know you're seeing patients four days a week, and that's essentially the same same amount of. Clinical effort you put in usually in private practice, you do four days a week in the day off to try to catch up and follow patients in order sets, orders, and stuff like that. Right the challenge though is for an academic senators they can't pay them pay these colleges for pay the physicians as much as they as they will get in private practice, right? So, if you increasingly make it equivalent, you know time that you're spending son doing clinical care as you would do a group practice or outpatient practice without giving them time to research than what incentive is there to stay in an academic institution I've seen that happen with a number of my colleagues who actually graduated from the inner cells which I did went off to academia. Brilliant people who were you know had really promising early careers got lasko CDA's etcetera or ask a young investigator awards but their respective institutions would require them to see a lot more clinical care than they initially signed up for. Eventually, they just said you know what's the point you know and they leave and usually they leave for two areas. One is private practice or industry. I'm seeing more and more colleagues of mine leaving for industry that has pharmaceutical companies etcetera who need on colleges need that these experts that help them develop their molecules. So I don't I don't know the answer. What is the right answer to? How do you make this balance? I think it's a very it's a big challenge for chairs and administrators to try to ensure that academics have some time because you know you can't do research with like. One day a week off I. Really. It's really hard because you know you're spending some of that time already on clinical care follow up with patients at. CETERA. into try to actually write papers, write protocols beyond teleconferences or run a lab it's almost impossible and so you have to give some margin of time to for these researchers but understandably, if these researchers not bringing grants or Rian protocols or funding. Institutions are losing money on every single one of them right? Not entirely sure which direction this is gonNA. End Up going for academic year in the United States, I think there are different challenges particularly if you're outside the United States but I'm seeing more and more trials actually moving outside the United States for a number of reasons one. It's cheaper for drug companies to actually do trials outside the united. States. And to there are more investigators or clinical trial has to know how to run a clinical trial or even even early clinical trials. In Asia in Europe in eastern Europe particularly and so companies are moving towards their so. some of these new novel ages may not become available for patients here in the United States in the future. So finally, just to wrap things up before I got on the call, I saw a New York Times propublica article about a another cancer center where they've had some issues with conflicts of interest in. To comment on on that, you may be aware of it but but rather, how do you partner with industry in? What's Pharma's role as a partner in research in caring for patients? Yeah. That's a really good question. Former is I would argue instrumental at least in the in the clinical aspect of research I think the NIH in the has a very obviously central strong role in preclinical research. and. and to some extent Pharma is having increasingly there. There are needs for affirmative also have increasing role or by TechNet forming biotech role in also preclinical research. Most of the drugs. That are currently approved in the United States was not developed by the government. It was developed by the pharmaceutical industry, the vast majority of new drugs whether it's an oncology. Those seventy-three indications came from drug companies who invested in poured out, argue billions of dollars into research. Now, one can argue I'm not gonNA argue about drug pricing, which is I think complicated her and nuanced here. But part of the reason that they're able to do research is the money that they've poured into this area. We do have collaborations the NCI in doing clinical trials with them but the vast majority of clinical trials are done in this country in the world are conducted by pharmaceutical companies in what what I think Propublica, some of the other ten of venues that are trying to that out this conflict of interest they may or may not realize this is that this research probably would not be conducted if it wasn't for Pharma trying to, you know get drugs approved and investing the money in order to try to get these drugs improved. Clinical trials isn't incredibly expensive endeavor and that's also very complicated reason as to why but you know the numbers ranged from phase ones from twenty to fifty million dollars of phase one, and then you get into large phase randomized phase two can run up to one, hundred million, and then doing an international phase three study can be up to three hundred million. There's debate as to how much this whole process costs. But if you look at the institude Joe, democracy has been working in this area for decades. And their data suggests that capitalized cost that means the cost incurred to get one drug approved, which is usually a a ten percent. Likelihood of a drug, one drug that only one drug out of ten that gets into the clinic gets approved that capitalized cost is probably three billion or more Again, one can debate as to why these drug costs are so high, but without Pharma, the United States government does not have. That kinda cash. To invest in research and getting new drugs out there. So fortunately or unfortunately, that's just the nature of the reality of drug development at this well and Pharma wouldn't be able to implement those trials unless they were in partnership with the the Anderson's of the world right I mean, yes and no increasingly Pharma is moving outside of academia. There's a one of the largest conch proud units in the world or in the United States at least is something called Sarah Cannon Cancer Center and they're not necessarily affiliated with the university. they're part of a C-, a dedicated oncology practice that is really kind of focused on clinical trials in oncology. And they are Juggernaut in oncology trials, but they're not affiliated with any university of any sort and so that that allows them to have low lower overhead costs and also them to have faster implementation clinical trials, which which always leads to decrease research costs. Right. So to date, we know on average from drug getting into the clinic in getting approved still takes about eight years before FDA. approval. Things have gotten faster in the last couple of years but. You know the last paper I read on this still the average was like eight to nine years. and. So if you're for example small biotech. You are burning through incredible amounts of cash to pay for your staff, the clinical trials, etc.. into the faster, you get that up and running and completed the better and so. The Anderson's and Danafarber Casey see they're still very important in the KHL trial infrastructure. But there are other alternatives that drug companies farm are looking at not including Sarah. Cannon. But also outside of the United States. There are other entities now outside the United States that are also doing these kinds of clinical trials. Now, you know the FDA singer their mandate is is that you know long as the data's good right and it's it's been audited and vetted appears good. They're not going to necessarily disapprove a drug because it's not done it in the Enersen caring right? They just WanNa, make sure that the right protocols have been followed in all the essentials of running clinical trial is done properly is essentially. So you're all in competition with each other for those those clinical trials. Right I mean ideally, we should. We shouldn't be in competition, right ideally, we should all be working together towards You know getting these trials up and running and completed for cancer patients but there is some level of competition I would really academic competition but also trying to get slots for patients who are at your institution. I wanted to pick up where we left off on our discussion of Pharma and the cost to bring a drug to market I think you throw to figure something like two billion dollars. That's the number that I've seen something around that, and we're talking offline about the decisions that Pharma companies need to make whether to even enter clinical trials or move from phase one to two. To, three bringing drug markets on every stage of the every step of the way in stages decision needs to be made it go no go decision what are your thoughts on that process and the the issues that people think about when making those decisions? Yeah. That's a really excellent question. So I had that same question to my colleagues in Pharma, and so I actually pitched A. A Educational Session on this very topic and we titled at the art and Science of go no go decisions in oncology drug development. And the reason we titled that is, is because I, it's not a science scientific process, right? There are many different factors that make a decision about whether a drug will move into not only into the clinic but from each step in the process and there were three kind of industry veterans who are part of that educational session. If some of your audience were at a CR, they can log onto the website and actually it was recorded. Nancy Cole, who is was kind of the head biologist or head she scientific officer blueprint biology. She's now consulted for a number of companies institutions. The second person was David fell quite who is the head of early drug development at ems the last person was Sandra Horning who's chief medical officer at Genentech. And so I posed this question to all three of them who how do you make these decisions in each step from the preclinical to the early and late? Nancy. Obviously shared there are a number of key decisions. Is there activity in certain models? Can you actually create a molecule that will have the right stability and characteristics in a clear environment that we can? Can you scale it? Right? Can you make enough drugs so that you can get this into the clinic and what in the context of all of this you know what are your competitors out there? What drugs already in that space Dave had a really interesting perspective. He's a huge fan of economists. Named diversity, who was a behavioral economists? Who won the Nobel Prize in the and and really believed that in complex decision processes you really need clear try to make as much objective decisions as possible outside of your own personal kind of agenda has I think we're all whether it since to some extent in science, but also in complex decision process such as drug development in your all we all have biases right for and Dave has tried at least in his processes still eliminate that by looking at certain. He's actually got an algorithm where he looks at the characteristics of that molecule in clinic. So I in early trials. So does this is their activity is there does inhibit what we think it does in biomarkers a both what's called proximal biomarkers and distant biomarkers, and what level of activity are we seeing is safe for less toxic and human beings all these criteria he kinda posed and he uses somewhat of an algorithm to make to help their team make decisions. Sandra was much more broad and she posed a number of challenges. I think that the industry is facing and that is you know we have gone from this period of scarcity where we had very few drugs and entries can into a clinic now with a huge abundance of new trials and new molecules what's challenging for somebody like Santa? Horning is there is a lot of competition out there. Right? There are at least there's already five approved pd one or Pedia one inhibitors. There's another ten in the in in the space. Where do you go right? There are multiple agents in every single class. How do you proceed? and. So She just post a lot of questions and for them I think how do you navigate the process? In the context of the larger challenges such as patient enrollment research cost. How much is this GONNA cost us to eventually get an approval. I would argue the regulatory framework she brought up the regulatory framework which has has really changed over the last several years and I I give credit to. Our colleagues at the FDA, they've really tried to look at alternative ways to get approved in a way that we hadn't seen before the breakthrough indication histology, agnostic trials, real world data et CETERA. And so I think a lot of what Sandra in one of a large Pharma and so forth are doing is how do you navigate that? How do you best execute your go? No go decisions in that in that environment. So. Yeah. So it is truly I would argue more of an art right now there's not a sign if it was a science and it was easy enough that you you did this and add this and mixed up this and you'd get an approved drug. We'd have a lot more drugs approved, but that's not the case at this time follow up question and this is going to really show my lack of drug knowledge. But in the in the simple what I would call the simple space rather than in the biologics during the cancer space. Let's say blood pressure drugs. In that space, you have your calcium channel blockers. Ace inhibitors are some Alpha blockers. Are Trying to think I'm probably forgetting a few diabetics. and. It's always been my sense that physicians view. The category is the drugs in the category being relatively interchangeable and how this relates to go decisions. As you know, once you hit the fifth ace inhibitor, do we really need a sixth or seven or eight days? And especially in in these days when formularies are tightening up and putting products and preferential position. So my question is, is it different in the world of oncology? Do you view products in a given category as being relatively interchangeable or does it go to our last conversation about? Precision medicine and maybe one particular drug is better than another. That's a really good question. I mean today to most of these drugs are oftentimes approved any specific indication. For example, you know like I said, there's like five different PD, one inhibitors out their PD L. One inhibitors, but each of them have taken different niches, right so for example, value MAB which is PD L. One inhibitor I think AstraZeneca owns at is approved in from a large say which was called the Pacific trial, which was in the context of Ashvin therapy after Chemo Experti- Chemo, radiation radiation in in lung, cancer patients. I'm pretty sure I'm sure that there are other drug companies now like Merck and B. M. S. looking to use that space. But at this point, I don't think you can just ask. Your Insurance Company to add Nivo in that context of that setting. Because these drugs are so expensive right satellite. Change out one ace inhibitor for another right right and some of these drugs have only indications in certain specific disease states. So I think one of the reasons that there's not kind of interchangeability is that these drugs were so expensive and specialty pharmacies are becoming much much more strict about what indications who can use did what setting etcetera etcetera off label use in this country is legal, right? In fact, I think the formation, the FDA, their their intent was never to tell doctors exactly how to use this drug they were initially. Commission to really say drugs are safe right? But but because of the expense of these drugs specialty pharmacies, sherm plans, reckon very strict about how these drugs can be used in not used. And what indications and so I see that being different than just standard other drugs like ace inhibitors. CETERA. What implication. Application does that have for biosimilars? Well so biosimilars will I. Think we'll be increasingly be used I. Think they they will I mean I mean you know the it'll be a while before I think anybody can develop a bio similar to some of these PD one inhibitors but there's now by similars now rolling out for like Redux mad which has come off I think patent and there's other biosimilars for, for example, the GMC F. and Jesus analogs. So in those settings are pretty straightforward I. I don't think anybody's done large scale studies comparing you know the boss similars as to whether they're any lesson essay in fear to like Rotunda Mab or whatever. Theoretically, they should be very almost exactly. The same right because these molecules are are the all by complex you know the they're very precise. So I'm assuming that they will have a role because the cost will go down They're not going down as much as like you know if you had a generic of in ace inhibitor partly because they're just much more difficult to make a more complex to make. I I do think that biosimilars will and they are beginning they are taking off I mean we The institution here at the Anderson I think oftentimes uses biosimilars. or by Bison wish because they are cheaper than than the other standards. I think that that has been a good change for overall drug costs, but remember the patent life or at least the the drug exclusivity rights of a drug right give it a forget exactly what the time point is. But give give it a exclusively for a long period of time. So I. Try to or Nivo we'll have drug exclusivity for many more years and they're gonNA charge what the market will bear. Right right. Right as talked about last time the drug pricing is a very complicated. Very trying to explain somebody how drugs are paid for in the US is and why they're priced the way that they are. Is a challenge it is complicated. You know I think that this is one of the things I posed in that that that educational session as you are I I do think that Pharma is coming upon their kind of tobacco moment right from suitable companies used to be an if they ever. But they you know they weren't necessarily seen like the bad guys like tobacco companies, right? But. Then you have the whole March skelly story. You have this whole stories about the EPI pen. You now have the whole stories of the purdue family, and then you know just recently the CEOS of the Pharma companies were all brought forward the in front of Congress right if you look at Gosh any survey looking at particularly Medicare and Medicaid drug pricing in negotiations. Despite the fact that we as a country are divided almost every major issue. The only thing that we're actually united about is drug pricing right Republicans and Democrats Liberals, and Progressives, and conservatives they are and I think that what's going to end up happening whether it's trump next year in two thousand twenty or whoever there's GonNa be a push towards somehow you know. Allowing Medicare to negotiate prices. And I think if that happens, you know the other the shoe falls, which is insurers will fall on that. Also, I mean, there is already. Drug pricing negotiation going on particularly with a church companies. But I think that Medicare pricing comes into the plays GONNA drive down costs even more. So drug companies are going to have to figure out how do they you know given the increasing research costs and maybe likely drug reimbursement is going downwards. You know, how do they make decisions based upon that right and they you know? As much as we'd like to think that drug companies purely make decisions on science alone and efficacy of drugs they don't they have to be fiduciaries to their stockholders and they have to make decisions based at that will make revenue, right? Yeah and I think today it's It's an even bigger issue but the the example that I used to use is Zithromax saw three mice now. Granted. We're talking a much much lower scale in terms of dollars. But I always just to say Pharma has a hard time selling value. You know here you have you can take for your sinusitis you can take. A Salon for mock cicilline three times a day for ten days not sure if that's exactly accurate, but if you look at the Z pack. You know you load up on the first day and then you take something for four more days than you're just much more convenient. You're much more likely to be compliant. But when you go to the pharmacy and you see this, it's off pat now that you see this, you say, well, wait a minute I'm going to pay seventy dollars or this cost a hundred dollars for six pills and people just think and it's the same kind of thing with the Gilead drug or suite of drugs for Hep say. People look at that and they say their the value can't be there for what I'm getting and I. Just I don't disagree at all by the way that they're having their tobacco. Moments here with a string of these kinds of things hitting the news and I also think that they just haven't done as an industry a good job explaining the value of of what it is that they bring to the table. I agree. You know I mean it's it's a it's a part of the larger story of healthcare here in the United States right? I don't know what the right answer is. I definitely envy some aspects of like kind of centralized. Manage systems like Canada or in Europe but at the same time like I, tell you the number of clinical trials number amount of research says being done here in the United States number of drugs that are available. Are Not available to cancer patients in Canada or the UK? UK. has something called the Nice System Right which is a committee that makes decisions based upon the value of life year right? Whether or not that drug is going to be of value to a cancer patient. You know how do you put a price on that? I it's hard to put a price in my opinion it's hard if it's especially if it's your if your wife or your son or whoever right? The committee, a government committee says, we know that this drug can extend possibly extend the life of a somebody by six months, but we don't think that is enough for us as government to pay. Well, that's a curve right? That's that's a curve. Some of those patients who may benefit six months may also benefit five years right? It's it's it's the tail end, but there's still that chance I, I don't know. If Americans are GONNA want to to make those kinds of decisions or want somebody in a central government to make that kind of decision right and there are number of health economists? Is You we all know who argued there are three things in healthcare and it's it's different than most other economic kind of markets. One is quality availability and then cost in most health economists would argue you cannot have all three. It is very hard to have all. Even, in socialized systems like the UK or Canada, their costs are skyrocketing. And so it's a balance and I it's it's one of those things where I. It'd be hard for me to see. Consumers Union, the United States Oh, you know what I'll. I'll wait I'll wait three months for my hip replacement right or or you know what? I'm not going to get the latest drug because you know it's too costly the government's as to but now you can have it two tier system where those who could pay into that system. You know have a private insurance which does occur in like Canada to some extent in other countries. But at the same time, also I could see just an uproar about the inequality of something like that inevitably would draw inequalities because no matter how much. Money, you pour into a system like healthcare which were pouring tons of money into they're still going to be inequality. So I don't know the right answer to you. John I don't know the answer either I certainly have my my opinions. I mean the reality is using the Canada Canadian example in the UK. I would imagine that the people that you see. Down, MD Anderson who come from those countries are wealthy right I mean. They have the ability to to come to you know top medical institution have their care and no matter what direction we go in its I, don't see that changing yes. Yes and I you know I can't speak to the full population patients that come to the tonight. We definitely do of kind of indigent care here in the Houston community because it's a Texas mandate but you're correct in the sense that a lot of patients who do come here from. Outside of Houston have the resources to come right especially if you're from another country, we're seeing a whole lot of patients actually coming from China you know it's a socialist system in China. There says, says a kind of a videography essay on Chinese healthcare. It is abysmal about what's going on there and there's there is going to there likely is probably already two-tiered system. But the system. Currently of those who get socialized healthcare there is is abysmal I mean it's just it's just really sad. On that article. But we are seeing yes we are seeing lots of plenty of patients from other countries coming here is because. A lot of them are from socialized countries. Right? We have the the best potentially the best care here in in the US but then there's the question about why is it that we're not at the top of the list in outcomes in just about Agree that you look at why is that well show? So in cancer care, we actually are better than like social systems like UK and so forth. If you look at life expectancy and so forth I think it's far more complex than just Oh, you know our healthcare system I mean you'd think about health health is the human bodies. Health is a very complex system right? I mean like we Americans eat crap. and. If you're seriously, if you were to bring the full Japanese population here to our healthcare system, I bet our life expenses would be a lot better right because Japanese eat much healthier than us they way lot less than us. Probably Habits they're better than us, but we Americans eat a lot of fatty fried food and we were overweight. And we overwork by the way. I think a lot of people like to compare healthcare systems by those outcome saying, APP, apples, oranges, but apples, apples but that's not true because our populations are entirely different. You know a lot of the socialized systems exist in very smaller countries Sweden. Whatever they have populations. I think is Norway has has north. Finland has a population of Houston. Right right. I didn't bring you still how do you? How do you come in? You say while you know they're they're they're they're such higher life expectancies. Well, that's hard to compare three, hundred, million to five, million population you know and and much more headed much more homogeneous population relative to heterogeneous, population. And so you know I kind of oftentimes take those kind of comparisons with somewhat grain of salt because I don't think that you can just throw the United States population say well, you know therefore the healthcare system is failing them. I totally agree that there are definite aspects in Christie's of the current modern are American, modern healthcare system that is failing the American populace but there's also many aspects of American healthcare that is truly benefiting us as a nation particularly innovation if he talked with people in Pharma. To large extent and I'm not saying that this is the the major reason. But you know a lot of the research costs are borne by the fact that we have higher drug prices here in the United States right now people don't want to say it. And but that's the truth right? You know a few say, okay we're GONNA now not allowed drumbeats to make profits or whatever will the money flowing into research decline I bet it will. I'm just making my best assumption that probably likely will will they make it up by increasing prices in Canada and the UK and other places? I doubt it because those governments will just say, no, we're not paying more her night they've already those agreements I'm not sure what the right answer is. We haven't cured cancer for and we still need new drugs and we as many new drugs are out there we need to you know every day I you know I see patients were dying, right? I mean most of my patients. Despite these new drugs die on me and And it's easy to say I think if you're a critic when you don't have a a mother or a father or a life or a child who is suffering from cancer, say you know what it costs too much and it will make sure that the drug companies don't make any profits or just reasonable prophets. But when you have somebody who has cancer, it's not that easy to say, no, I lost both parents to cancer different types, cancer and watch them. In the last days of of their their lives and it was horrible. In a needs to tell you, you see it every day. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is an enlightening. Yet. Again I'm sure we could talk for another half an hour but I think I be wearing out my welcome Dr Hong Thank you. You know this obviously our opinion piece. Obviously, this is my opinion that the opinions Anderson Suppress. Pathetic. But yeah, it's it's fun. It's fun talking about this. This is stuff that have a passion for you know alternately, you know why do what I do is because I really want to help our patients and ultimately I really believe that clinical research particularly new innovations will transform not only cancer but you know health in general in the world, and so I'm you know I'm I'm I'm passionate about that. Thanks for interviewing me a happy to do this again sometime. At some point leader in. Whenever you have this and so happy to talk about other topics. That sounds great. Thanks again, Dr Hong Terrific. That's all for this week from all of US Darwin Research Group. Thanks for listening. If you haven't yet done. So please rate and review healthcare rounds wherever you listen to podcasts. Healthcare rounds is produced by Deanna Nicolaj and engineered by Andrew Roja. The music by John Murcillo. Darn Research Group provides advanced market intelligence and in-depth customer insights to healthcare executives. Are Strategic Focus is on healthcare delivery systems and the global shift towards value based care. To learn more about us, go to Darwin Research DOT COM or send an email to insights at. Darwin. Research Dot Com. Or. If you'd like to get right to it, cost eight, four, zero, two, three, four, six, five, see an extra round.

US Pharma cancer MD Anderson Canada FDA MD Anderson UK Dr David Hong Associate Vice P ace inhibitor Dr Hong Anderson Anderson Cancer Sandra Horning American Society of Clinical O Hong Deputy Chair of Investiga MD Anderson Department of Investigational
The Falklands War

Brief History Podcast

1:13:42 hr | 1 year ago

The Falklands War

"If you want to live CD medic target your pain at its source it's fast acting relief with active OTC ingredients plus the added benefits of THC free hemp oil. It's cutting into your exercise time it stabbing you in the back nine and it's attacking your peace of mind it's pain and it's getting in between you winans territorial dependency which is south Georgia and South Sandwich Islands the conflict got on the second of April when Argentine forces invaded and occupied the Falkland Islands this was followed by an invasion of south Georgia ah they would have some news later on in the year about those watch this space if anybody is a writer or sound editor than welcome this is Android I'm your host of the brief history podcast podcasts if you could relieve five stoller gee that'd be excellent these type of things really help with finding so while we have done and there's more to be released shortly so the wait is over in the meantime working on some other special projects on the United Kingdom in nineteen eighty two over two different territories in the South Atlantic the focus the next day in an attempt to stop the sovereignty claim them over on the fifth of April the British government dispatched a naval task. You can listen to a back catalog of get subscribed point all your favorite hookup listening places if he subscribed the next episode so if you'd like to be involved then find this on social media where facebook brief history podcast twitter and instagram all of the okay won't and so we get straight into the Falklands war was a ten week undeclared war between Argentina new promotions or finding new appetizers which allow us to do this podcast in the future it also allows us to bigger batteries were Argentine territory an Argentine government that's characterizes military action as the recommendation of its territory the British governor also to engage with the Argentine navy and Air Force before making them amphibious assault from the island this conflict lasted seventy four days nineteenth century with predominantly descendants of British settlers and strongly favored Britches sovereignty leave estate officially declared war although both governments declared the islands a war zone hostilities was almost exclusively limited to the territories UNDIS- disputes and the area talk military personnel and two fifty five purchase personnel and three Falkland Islanders died during the hostilities it drops well download for you sort of one place I missing to the back Catalogue in the meantime just to let you know this episode is on the inflict was a major episode in the protracted dispute over the territory's sovereignty Argentina asserted maintains that they all social media marketer Eddie any jobs lined up to offsettable for podcast please reach out to us because we're higher not as we speak for future projects diplomatic relations between the United Kingdom and Argentina were restored in nineteen eighty nine following a meeting in Madrid which the two handle says find this there and we can we can talk if you haven't already done so please like share tell your friends my regard the action as an invasion of territory in Crime Colin leases eighteen forty the folkman islanders who had inhabited the island since the early allow so at Eagle help like if I saw so we review will be very much appreciated so please and if your new welcome and ended with the Argentine surrender on the fourteenth of June we're turning the islands to British control in total six hundred forty nine calculating that the United Kingdom would never respond militarily by opted for military action the gala tear recover films on songs patriotic sentiment ran high in Argentina outcome prompted large protests against the ruling military government. Hazy listen it's downfall in the United Kingdom the conservative government boasted by the successful outcome was reelected with an increased majority to follow in full Argentines claim to territory was added to its constitution in the period leading up to the wall in particular form the transfer of power between the military dictators General Jorge Raphael General Roberto Eduardo Viola late I marines raised the Argentine flag at South Georgia island a knocked that would like to be seen as the first offensive action in the war government issued a joint statement no change in either country's position regarding the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands Made Explicit in Nineteen Ninety the Royal Navy patrol vessel hates must endure it was dispatched from Stanley to South Georgia on the twenty fifth in response March nine thousand nine hundred what Argentina have been in the midst of a devastating economic stagnation and large scale civil unrest against the Military Gentler Dosa and Admiral George Weah was the main architect unsupportive of a military solution for the longstanding claim over the islands back by popular demand. Thank you for our loyal subscribers our listeners everybody's reached out on social media as recordable on the regime's ongoing human rights violations of the dirty such actions would also boast a dwindling legitimacy see the new space last press speculated on the step by step plan beginning with cutting off supplies to the island and fool with to the second bankroll the UK was initially taken by surprise by the Argentine attack on the South Atlantic Islands Orlands increased on nineteen March where a Military Group of Argentine scrap metal merchants they actually infiltrated by audience the empirical fact of the conflict has been less than the UK done in Argentina where remains a common topic for discussion something Operation Cobra Commander of the Task Force was John Fieldhouse operations lasted from first of all April Nineteen Solarge oftentimes fleet and Argentine forces had taken control of the island richest military operations in the fulcrum were given the indirect actions late in one thousand nine hundred eighty two if the UN tokes free ongoing tension between the couteau countries go to mobilize the wrong standard patriotic feelings of Argentines towards the islands there started the public attention from the country's economic problems surrender at Government House worthy invasion first reached UK from Argentine sources administered defense operative in the audience time miniature Genta suspect in the UK would reinforce Atlantic pulses altered the invasion of the fulcrum islands to people later that day BBC journalists lorrimore Golez spoke with an Oil Linda at goose green via amateur radio who confirmed the bring into office in New Jersey headed by General Leopoldo Galtieri acting president an average Adele but the Llama had sent a signal to the Argentines that the UK was unwilling would soon be unable to defend his territories and subjects in the Falkland the ship Royal Fleet Accelerate our effect for Austin was dispatched from the western Mediterranean h messengers. There's group the attack on barracks the engagement between troops of Hugo Suntan bill trip at Stanley on the final gauge moments the following dight join a crisis meeting headed by Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher the chief of Naval Staff at Henry Leach Advice London on the show tally tax conversation with governor. Hunt's telex operation it confirmed that Argentines on the island and in control silence on the second April nineteen eighty two the oftentimes forces mounted amphibious London's known as Operation Rosario on the take to the twentieth of June nineteen eighty two the British undertook a series of military operations as a means of recapturing for campaign that she did not know opposition without concern of however once a decision was reached she did not look back despite repeated warnings boil naval captain Nicholas Barker it commanded their endurance anivers- Balk at believed the defense side on the six April the British government set up a war cabinet to provide day-to-day political oversight the campaign Allante with a law. The conflict had a strong effect in both countries and has been the subject of various books articles NATO force China exercises in the Mediterranean to provide south-south invasion on the second of April after emergency from the island was adopted by the council the following day as United Nations who's not council resolution five to which possibly ten votes insulin in speculation the effect of these reports were panic the Argentine genta into invading the Falkland Islands before nuclear powered submarines could be deployed wins from Argentine occupation though the British royalty taken prior in that second April invasion in response to the events on salary swath of August although Margaret Thatcher is described as dominating the wool cabinet Lawrence Friedman notes in the official history of the Falkland Islands South Atlantic and to report as necessary to Defense Overseas Policy Committee the war camping matter at least daily until it was dissolved the governor approval was given to foam task force to retake the islands this was backed in an emergency session of the House of Commons the next day end quote on the evening of April United Kingdom's nations on Buster possible let's go support from members catches the Commonwealth of Nations and the European Economic Community Australia Canada and New Zealand withdrew that diplomats that been governing the country since nineteen seventy six in December nine thousand nine hundred there was a change in the auditorium military regime. This was the critical instrument crisis management to the British with his remittance the end to keep under review political or military development relating to the St John Not one thousand nine hundred one review in which knots described plans to redraw the George the Yolk case only naval presence in the in the South Atlantic all currency had wished to send a third submarine with his decision with deferred due to concerns about the impact on operational commitments coincidentally on the in the House of Commons afterwards Margaret Thatcher said quote the New Zealand government and people have absolutely magnificent in their support for this country itself was politically backed by majority countries in Latin America of crucially not chilly and also some members on Aligned Movement will grow cap on a in an opinion piece published in science he said quote the military rulers of Argentina must not be appeased newseum will back Lena intelligence also cooperated with Britain to prevent Argentina from an exit missiles on the international market the New Zealand government expelled the Argentine ambassador following the invasion Prime Minister Robert Muldoon was in London when in Senegal and France provided this minimum aircraft training so the Harrier pilots could be trained against the French aircraft used by Argentine in order wide end quote will cost it on BBC World Service he told the Falkland Islanders quote this World Mood doc quote recent could and should send a task force skip the islands were invaded and quote on the first April Lynch sent orders to second March two separate left Gibraltar and it was just seemed it was in the press to be headed south that has been since we'll when against which Panama enfor up stations China the Soviet Union potent the UK received Fervor Loyd assault and ordine Argentina remained death throughout the world despite presidential decree the team had provided material support on on the Royal Marines the events the invasion included on of left commander Admiral Sanchez supply. Thomas I'm Fabius Command could the invasion was met with nominal defense organized by Fulcrum Islands Governor surrendered hunt giving command to major might normal the Sierra Leone government allowed task for ships to refueling preterm BBC ten transport aircraft landed enjoy in the Gambia and fly between the UK and Ascension Islands. The United States was concerned a protracted conflict which will the Soviet order the submarines h Miss Splendid and H- H Mess Fox was ordered to South to south on twenty four March whereas the the Union of Argentina's side an initially tried to meet yet then to the conflict through shuttle diplomats however when Argentina refused the US provided United Kingdom with Sidewinder missiles for use by the Harrier jets President Ronald Reagan approved Royal Navy's require pulled richest operations of houses the US Congress passed resolutions supporting US action sided with the United Kingdom from bodice Ariz the EEC also provided economic support imposed economic sanctions on Argentina oughtn't missile systems in two thousand twelve declassified falls from the Regan Library show that the US Secretary of state I examined the hey wanted in a two thousand two interview on in reference to the support you're not the Dan Defense Secretary at disquiet France at Britain's and for a draft resolution to the United Nations Security Council resolution which condemned the hostilities and demanded the immediate Argentine ritual unquote greatest ally in quote in two thousand twelve. He came to light that we've while this was taking place a fridge technical team the United States navy develop a plan to help the richest man that Shit with American military contractors likely retired sailors with knowledge of a g that s concentrate elite class frigate available to use when the British could fit to release Romeny vessels from the Falcons in contrast than French intelligence officer maintained he knew the team was that it was in intelligence gathering capacity Joel Nope should we support to the U K in the form of intelligence about the Argentine military they also gave him according to the Book Operation Israel advisors from Israel Aerospace Industries were already in Argentina and continued that work on the conflict the US peace overtures US Secretary of State Alexander Hey announced that the United States would prohibit sale arms to Argentina implied materials wolf thankful the ship left port soon after westbound for ascension island through the Panama Canal on stopping Karaka unreach- early warning intelligence on Ami's moments throughout the war Argentina was afraid of Chilean military intervention in Patagonia and kept has to borrow the sea hurry capable I'm physicist assault ship. US Awad Jima if the British lost aircraft carrier some of its best mounted regiments away from the focus arguments near the Chilean border as a precaution the Chilean government also allowed to United Kingdom and we all thinking of you and we will give full support total to the British government is in his endeavors to rectify the situation get rid of the the way Latin Guatemala offered to send paratroopers to the Falkland Violence though Libya Under Memorial Qaddafi Argentina received twenty requisition the refuting vessel are a toy poodle or Chile had recently purchased which arrived there are Erica on chilly in the were mounted by the Soviet Union the British government had no contingency plan for the invasion of the island and the taskforce which Rapley put together the seven vital the ocean s Cabrera was requisitions sal two days later with three commanded grade aboard ocean liner the book also claims that Israel so weapons and drop tanks in a secret operation Peru also openly sent Mirages them to side with Argentina over the Falklands Peru attempted to purchase twelve missiles for Argentina in a failed see her operation asked if he regretted his earlier praised the French said he stole the French were quote duplicitous and always have been enclosed convince Boyd Hermes in the company of escort vehicles left Portsmouth only a day later on its return to Southampton from rural cruise look not of any of important and advised that French government denied any knowledge at the time that the tech teams that and of the A. F. refueled in ricky with knowledge and consent of the Brazilian government some of these candle Stein operations retaken the fulcrum items was considered extremely difficult the child Britches County Beijing succeeded where says on the focus on this for the rule of liberty and of law and quote the French President Francois Mitterrand declared embargo to the Argentines identify fixing faults in exit missile launchers. John Not said the unknown the French team was there but said it's what was thought role L. Force a setup the airbase of Rex Ascension Islands Co located with wideawake airfield on mid a set sail in April nineteen ninety-two Nick van divert records that after time the feet up use green his pilots have missiles to Argentina joining purdue at earlier transferred ten Hercules transport planes to Argentina soon after the British task McQueen lists with the second was also requisition fountain on the twelfth with the Fifth Infantry Grade Onboard the whole Taskforce Eventually Hadley Major Victor K N que too few aircraft McDonnell Douglas Phantom at Mach Two fighter get back to your life with CBD medic available online and that CBS these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA this product is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease old French arms sales assistant to Argentina in addition from cloud you can act grafenwohr ships used is poor and I feel facilities that car for the US Navy according to historian of Herman as quote a military impossibility in quote I ate breakfast people invaded your country and quote on the swim team from Maine Nine thousand nine hundred eighty two in announced that New Zealand would make h. m. n. Lorge and sixty seven missiles as why as machine guns mortars a minds all in all the load of four trips of two Boeing seven four seven back to south Georgia encounters began in April the British Task Force was shuttered by Boeing seven Oh seven aircraft of the Argentine check them meanwhile the main British naval task force arrived at Ascension to prepare for active service the small force had already been sent factory astles joined that travel to south several of these flights were except by sea Harriers outside the British impose exclusions on she's like airborne early warning controls at Craft Planet also considered the Argentine surface fleet on the threat posed constrained by their deposited in deployable act cover the British had forty two aircraft twenty-eight heroism fourteen harriers justifiable fact combat operations against approximately one hundred twenty two for service jetfighters which fifty we used alantic British overseas territory of Ascension Islands including the cease fools of Apres Volkan B. and K. two bombers acid `priority fighters remained as strike aircraft in Argentina's at four Jordan will crucially from whatever vehicles were available nuclear powered submarine conqueror set sail from France on the full faith boss to act craft carriers is by exit quit all taught too tight to nine resemblance mid April comp applies one hundred twenty seven ships forty-three Royal Naval vessels and twenty two royal fleet citizenships and safety to merchant rid of April of resilient commercial Douglas DC six tad and for big airlines on route two South Africa were intercepted by bridges harbors there are no sevens were not attacked because diplomatic moves was still in progress and the UK not yet decided to commit itself to on false on the twenty of a series of five on the airfield at Stanley of Oklahoma from a sanction flew eight thousand North Dakota Miles Round Trip God save the Queen end quote the Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher broke the news to Mejet Tattenham to quote just rejoice in the news and congratulate offer light spring being withdrawn to deeper wall to avoid inception on the twenty fourth of April the British forces regrouped in headed into attack on a naval bombardment demonstrated to will maybe vessels the Antrim Plymouth the Argentine full surrendered without resistance the messy on the twenty fifth of April after resupplying the Argentine Garrison in south Georgia to separate a are a Santa Fe was spotted on the surface sources are marines on the first of May British operations on the Falklands Open with black buck one attack as consumed crashes tanker resources from essential also prevented Argentine jets from being stationed on the island get missiles at the submarine scoring several hits Santa Fe was damaged badly enough to prevent her from the Krill abundance some rain fly Westland Wessex Hey mark three helicopter from h myth and trump which attacked the Argentine submarine with depth charges dropping conventional bombs cost related Stanley back to ascension the mission required repeated refuted required several victims Ketu AH Jesse of King Edward Point on south Georgia with ties for now far to say the Argentine forces augmented by the summary IT Guy Sheridan were marines consisted of Roman reigns on the forty two commander of the Special Air Service SAS ESPEC- NFL tied spring first to revive was the Churchill class submarine h mess conqueror on the nineteenth of April and the island was overflowing boy boat service SBA troops who intended around as reconnaissance forces for an invasion by the Royal Marines all embarked on our thank aircraft operating concert included tankage tanker review it the fact that the rates on the war is difficult to determine and the seven hemisphere autumn Sakhlin the weather was so bad that a London in orders made next day will join after two helicopters crashed in fog links to torpedo instruct the submarine with his Pinto mounted general purchase which in Wessex also fired on the Santa Fe each set from the naval forces in south Georgia London was pleased to inform Her Majesty the what ends implies alongside the Union Jack in south Georgia late to compel to overfly British forces in an attempt to attack the island's first major strong force comprised thirty six aircraft took Argentine sources confirmed the vocal rates influence Argentina to which will summers street from South Argentina to bonus. Ra's Must Plymouth launch a Westland Wasp hate smart one helicopter and H- H Mertz brilliant loyalty Westland Lynx H- H A s and mark on on the twenty survey pro a submarine alert sounded and operations were hoped it the vent some this dissuasive effect was watered down when British officials made clear that there would be be starts from advices onto Tina Congress and only paved runway was in the capital Stanley and even that was to show support class jets although in arresting gear was fitted in Naples the ships returned safely this greatly boosted morale of Argentine pilots They would survive attack against modern airships expected did which is the capacity of the runway to operate fast just goes the Argentine apples to march three to defend the historian Lawrence Friedman who was also given access to official sources comments the significant of the boat vocal rates remains controversial although taking pressure on the small see higher force the rates were costly a news a great deal resources the single hit in the center of the Roadway was probably the best that could Serbian happily page Victor on the twentieth of April the first London's of SAS troops took place on twenty first April but with the anti radar missions usage strike anti radiation missiles the full clint's only have three F a four skyhawks a diagnose English Electronic Barris on the Mirage three schools mayland antics playmate for stunningly where it fell victim to friendly talk from the Argentine defenders as Mirage three fighters repeal eight low size refuse to fight at the best altitude until two mergers finding descended to so the Argenta apple staff deployed decided to employees hey four skyhawks doug is only straight units to combat combat broke out between the Sea Harriers F R s mom one flights as of number eight hundred and one naval escort this Creek Major Sheridan decides to have the seventy six man he had made a direct assault the day after short for smart for the British troops folks Daf`Al the Argentines were forced to launch that major strikes from the mainland severely hampering efforts forward stages combat air patrols enclosed s over the islands the effectively to time of income in Argentine aircraft was love Ashcroft Condoms Lockheed hurt lights Berkeley's transplant one flight supplies weapons vehicles fuel an elected out the wounded no fast jets were stationed F at defense overnight shelley by type ships it was never action entirely Stanley was defended the partic- Harriers the decoy and would be later extended with the formation of as queudrue fanatics a squadron of civilian jets flying twenty four age when was shut down by an aim nine sidewinder air-to-air missile while the scape was damaged without enough fuel to return to its Stanley was using tiny strong point throughout the conflict despite the Black Buck and Harry awaits on stunned the aircraft cuttings twelve nautical mile territorial limit by early wounds bomb rates on bushiest tassels we agree on that was examined discounted operation mccarter subsequently Fargo Navy submarines lined up submerged on the edge of the AAC shot down killing squadron commander Vice Commodore though Folk de la Colina the highest ranking origin time offsets died in the world percents on the first of May in the belief that the precipitation was in a minute on the London said already taking place only section of the grid the post sixth floor in a tiger aircraft ships which would fire an audience on defenses near the island the Doug is managed to the rates were late to dismiss US propaganda by Falklands veteran commanded Nigel world of the five blackbutt rates three were against Stanley airfield there's a date simulate strike aircraft to attack the fleet on one of these flights on the seven and a half learjet thirty five to point the highest operating from patroness invincible dugout compare shutdown which is fleet that that pincer movement presented however set controversy in two thousand and three the ship's Captain Hector Bonzo confirm the end of the conflict the only Argentine here shop down but it British was lost I when TC sixty three appeasal powered submarine A. R. A. San Luis returned to Paul did not leave again joined the fighting the to escort in destroyers tactic by Eric Grade Grand Clutter from the islands employ using the lake kept a profile meanwhile of Argentine aircraft was into in the full Clinton's come on the loss of the ship hard in the scouts of the Argentine government regardless of controversies over the sink in the General Belgrano had actually been news not saying away from the stadiums of just to sink any ship he could find forever and the battle group centered on aircraft carrier a alright and TNT so the mayor of which from the air and in the direct threat the savage of man was rescued from the open ocean despite code sees than slowly weather the losses totaled nearly half of the time flecked the first naval loss was the Second World War vintage on the time like cruising a are a General Belgrano the Nikkei pat summary Image to a surface to air missile systems franco-german Roland Britches tight cap on Swish bill or Lincoln five male twins two High Net Junji to add attrition various options to attack the home base of the five Argentine eighteen odds British T. p. m. p. the wasp from hatred Plymouth as whereas album Watson Jorrin's five S. twelve asm t the rules of war in a separate instant length that riches forces engaged time patrol Gumbo the IRA tax collector Sheffield had been ordered forward with two other type forty two's to provide long range radar a medium pie chapter one would would was a full mcmullen officer Sheffield destruction of Sheffield I will navy ship sunk in action since is to pick it fall from the British carriers she was struck amidships with devastating effect ultimately getting twenty crew members on severely injured twenty intercepted by Sea Harrier in daylight when he was searching for the British fleet northeast the island arbiter navy tried his luck as p Tape Purchase Naval Task Force One of surface vessels on one of rains and Argentine fleet will operate in neighborhood of the Falcons soon came into the call arrests abroad that research that critic the Argentine Air Force could bear light bombers shot down the first two Royal Navy Lynx helicopter offers the ship was abandoned several hours later gutted under formed by the fires that continued to serve six more days she finally sank oh two days later the combat crew would never find on the full from May two days after the sinking in general but Guardia which is lost the tide forty to destroy Hazmat Sheffield to fire according to follow an accident missile Argentine second date or rejected by the Argentines the fight of British negotiation position was presented to Argentina. UN Secretary General Press Dick she had a crucial strategic effect eliminations Argentine naval front after her loss entire time fleet with the exception concluding this agreement about the exact nature demerge tiny inclusions and wherever the General Belgrano AC been returning to port the time to sink it arrest only joined the ninth threes without afew hostility or any incapable am as decoys to lower which was Congress General background on the second day three hundred twenty three members of general quote died in the incident outside the exclusions on the tenth of May Jordan sinking of the ship and subsequent evacuation crew sang Monty Python's always the representative in situations of the islands included Argentinians will they'll know Argentinians lived there reference to south the on the bright side of life poplar English comedy soul the incident is described in detail by Sandy Wood in his book one hundred days war had a profound impact on the British public bringing home the fact that the focus on crisis as the BBC news puts it was now an actual shooting on the withdrawal of Argentine forces I supported by United Nations Shoot Council Resolution Fido to instead vote composed a UN administrative should supervise the mutual ritual both Argentinian and British forces then Governor Islands in consultation toil an essay reconnaissance team was dispatched to carry a preparations received infiltration Westland Sea King Heavy after Banzer state any suggestion HMS Complex actions were trying to us the wrong rather the submarine carrying out is duties according to the let full cease the missiles after badly damaged invite Creek debt of France agrout managed to return to Pareto dishonor meanwhile the team cross the border and penetrated into Argentina because their mission of the Argentine suspected of we'll sit around fifty miles from its target and the mission was aborted pilot freights chimney landed south of Porto Arenas FM a fifty eight per Nakahara guard aircraft a beechcraft t they known as early British forces was the scene of repeated attacks by low-flying Argentine jets four thousand men Lila on the eighteenth of May one thousand nine hundred eighty two in it the British binded their previous red line that purchase administration island would be restored traded seed Kei after interrogation discovery the burnt-out handicapped a trade attracted considerable international attention nick deployed more than two thousand trips to search for them the SIS was later able to return to Chile and took a civilian fights new give them the threat to the British fleet post by entered tax the compensation plans we made you see one three to fly I'm wolf the tempo operation increase throughout the first hop tonight at the United Nations attempted to mediate a peace okay on the Fourteenth Kamei SAS carrier raid on pebble island on the Falklands Argentine navy attend the grass ashtrays the mental which resulted in the destruction of several Akra during the nights commander brigade put show as follow second battalion the Parachute Regiment to power from that Haro Ro Ferry Norlin and forty Brigadier Julian thompsons plan was captured Dalwin and clean the full stunning now with the British troops the operation was later scrapped after knowledge there is chance success is limited replaced with a plan to breed hatred on x to drop SAS minded were marines from the amphibious ship H- h mess fearless when ended at San Carlos Beach Battalion Parachute Regiment three power from the I made the Sound Fabius task group under the command to Commodore Michael Truck Mounted Operation Sutton their fabius landed on the beaches around craters several miles offshore not them to take their way to the coast rebbe inflatables and proceed to destroy Argentina's main extras SAS troops to attack the defied anti-aids at Rio Grande Tiara diff lock up the operation was code named the Cauda Ajax Bay beach notably the waves of AFC L. C. VP's will let major new in celebrates halo the ship patroness intrepid was landed on call screen beach unfortified commander from our FAA Stolnis was landed talked of the SAS team they had to call his crew three than destroyed the aircraft surrendered to police on the twenty fifth of Maine and what replied slum loads of sea kings for rapid deployment by put on the next day it's published a secure beachhead from which to conduct future operations join. SS CAMERA WAS Tactical Reserve Units from Roy Artillery War engineer reconnaissance vehicles because this water psychologists water was on the northwest coast of East Falkland Facing Overfull Clint Sound The nation's they items and the British proposed at future negotiations over the for sovereignty of the islands should be conducted by the UN necessarily release point Argentine forces solve the problem by fitting improvised retarding devices allowing the pilots effectively employees she is earlier meant that many never exploded as there was insufficient time the after them to arm themselves simple free fall bomb heads that bomb fuzes did not have sufficient time to arm before impact low release it the retarded bombs some which Britches have sold to the Argentine connected to avoid the highest concentration of British air defences Argentine pilots auden's from out too partially or APP that allows them to reduce the speed the bomb to produce ascites horizontal separation between the bomb on the aircraft the look at the fool Clinton n. p. eight nine one from March nineteen seventy eight seventy nine forty take command on the ocean the Atlantic convoy was a severe blow for logistical perspective also lost on this day which has messed common trait assistantship H. Miss Antelope on the twenty and MVP Atlantic conveyor struck by two I am thirty six sits on the twenty fifth of May the Ground The Argentine Apples begotten not bombing campaigns against us can compare on planes until the last day of the war the full thirteen Eh World Service the disclosing information that led the Argentines to chain the retarded the voice from the bombs the World Service report to destinations after receiving a briefing on the matter from the Ministry of Defence Official describes the BBC as being more concerned with being aware of this but due to the high concentration required to avoid Sam's anti-aircraft Pussy Harris many failed to climb to the HMS Ogle h most brilliant were badly damage however many British ships scaping some because of weaknesses of the Argentine pilots lasted all night and into the day the British when the battle in all seventeen British and forty-seven Argentine soldiers were killed in total EH bombing attacks on eight June in his old spoil cuckoo account of the Falklands War Admiral would blind the show with the London round table class an S. L. A. Mexi float barges rapier missile launches were carried as the audience points he lost twenty two craft any attack from early on the twenty seven from May until the twenty eight from the to power approximately five hundred men with naval gunfire support from hate him as IRA et cetera support from the command the battery Royal Okay lost advise despite the failure bombs to explode fuses were function correctly and the bombs were simply released from to altitude quote Phyllis seekers after truth and quote and the lives of the British servicemen Colonel H- h Jones level similar accusations Dr Harrington assigned team took off from Patriots invincible on the ninth of the seventeen for Matt but bad weights never wherever tittering approached an attack Dalwin undo screen which was helped by the Argentine Twelfth Infantry regiments after strong struggled the BBC announced a taken goose green on the BBC World Service before uses retarded bomb requires that the retarded be open a minimum time to ensure safe separation pilots would have been on engines sixty one Argentine troops include into engine to Argentina at force personnel of the Condor aircraft will take him prisoner visually identify disciplinary in pains the South Georgia false operation parakeet under command of major the BBC after disclose the impending purchase tackle Bruce Green by two Kara Thirteen British ships without detonating actually happened it was Jordan's attack that left talent colonel h Jones commanding officer to park was killed at the head of his battalion while Charging Law Craig the retired marshal via force is said to have remarked six petted fuses and we would have lost although auden an antelope the low altitude release impacts directly below the aircraft which is then the explosion of a retarded bomb has you see British ships anti aircraft defenses with demonstrates in the sinking of heightened audit on the twenty-first made along with avoids will call go had called his room like belted equipment on tax law civil but went on helicopters being Sheffield Watson companies hate to Miss World soared after beat auditoriums as a decoy to draw away Argentine aircraft from of ships assigned call L. Pretend Argentine positions he was later awarded the Victoria Cross with this is oftentimes foles goose green out of the way British forces were now able to break out the sun call beachhead on the twenty seventh of May Metaphor Five commando three power started into special forces of the skirmish talked Mallow House a thirteen strong Argentine army commanded touch Captain Joseph Processes Self determination initiative but the next week the ESA mounted an automatic warfare cordray second in command twenty second mounted Infantry Regiment trout thirtieth may will apple's careers and Harriers the entire navy used that last am thirty-nine exit missile attempt to attack henchmen invincible thirty when invincible returned to the UK after war she showed no signs of missile damage on the thirty first May M. A. W. C. defeated Zengin second commanded company on the shelf mounted spotted by Fort to command they were engaged with our sixteen eighty to a male Muesli decorated for bravery over five Argentines were left than skate as the British Talk Mile House Lieutenant Frank move by heading Unknown to senior riches officers auditing generals were determined to tie down the British troops area First Section six nine commanded company found itself is trucking's Shepherd's House on top miler the Argentine Marines under Captain Rob Boleslaw for forty five minutes until with that amunition almost exhausted they elected to surrender three Cadre Commander Portrayed wage-intensive patrol battles with patrols off the volunteers the six Oh nine commanded company Major Aldo use of helicopter support to positions on extract patrols six oh I combat aviation battalion also seven casualties minded come in the six hundred first National Gender Special Forces Squadron to Stanley this operation was known as Alterman Pastor come on those five from windows and doorways than took refuge in a stream bed to Jimmy twos from the burning house completely surrounded they fought nineteen I gene with the arrival of have a five thousand British troops of the Fifth Infantry Brigade the new pushy from D squadron attacked mountains eastern lowest lows but led to his loss really small arms fire who subsequently ordered the distinguished flying cross active overnight Kent won them hurries accents nine six three boys cordial need to Jerry in responding to co two Suharto's patrol came down from Malik Hail from the Lodge Union slack when wounded Argentine soldier Nethon hurry who else would killed and eight more wounded in the crash as Brigadier Thompson commented it was fortunate that I will the news express by on the twenty seven twenty eight they said transport aircraft low to blow point surface to air missiles and commandos the six nine badly wounded on the Argentine side that were to that included left in Esto Espinosa and saw Matteo's Shiva he will should come untenable and after confirmed we've had officers ordered a withdrawal the type operation also sold extensively Camonte twos thing up at surface to missile some bought by the acid in the vicinity amount six Argentine National Gender Special Divisional Commander Major General Germany more are a sufficient forces to stop planning offensive against Stanley Jordan this buildup the auditing mortars and forced to withdraw to two sisters mountain leader the six to combine the company established mountain realize his business I will oftentimes claims missile struck however the wishes have denied this some sites h Mess Avenger show it down I would hate that reconnaissance amount for insertion of Food Manda was super-fitness had these not being that the oftentimes special after eleven am on the thirty meg arrow spot so assays three three Puma helicopter was brought down by shoulder lodge political the commander before deplane and in the darkness and confusion on the strain on his own inflicted heavy casualties o-man an copters end quote in a number of army western scout headquarters telephone ahead fitzroy they discovered the air was clear oftentimes seed in that authority showed the CTO for months today skate we would have taken them for those position six hundred I mando tried to move forward to rescue the burns and injuries of which some kind include invitingly Simon West than the the FAA says Tristram on June the code into surge commander Rick Jolly of the full Clinton Field Hospital more than one hundred fifty men so on the British naval forces continued killing fifty six of the dead thirty two with whilst God's on Face Galahad uncoordinated box coats great difficulties upon commanders combined operation they found themselves within thirty miles of indefensible position strong long they're seven flying support could not be sent by the APP as a single remain will be sent but not suit beaches to land on intrepid landing craft would need to accompany them to unload complicated operation for several Kim was already being over subscribed the soldiers could watch for that quipping heavy supplies with needs to be ferried by say tons withdrawn by commandeered Remain RAF check helicopter to frontally furry contingently second power ahead to fix short on buff coat house with Along the seven approach to Stanley on the second the June small plots of paramount to swim in house the intrepid in assists the ship feeless saying the halfway spots that cruise divide the attempted over unshipped disticts London platform dock intrepid on the night to the fifty two intrepid was stay one day a half the Welsh guards to march on the night of the second

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Eu Tava L #102 - CA NUM GOLPE DE 1 ANO E MEIO (com Rodrigo Cosma)

Eu tava l�

36:07 min | 11 months ago

Eu Tava L #102 - CA NUM GOLPE DE 1 ANO E MEIO (com Rodrigo Cosma)

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165 - Charlie

Welcome to Night Vale

26:04 min | 10 months ago

165 - Charlie

"How'd Y'all Jeffrey Craner here? Four quick things we have managed to reschedule for September. Most of our postponed March April tour dates checkout welcome tonight. Ville dot com slash live for new and rescheduled shows also. Because of temporary shutdowns of nonessential businesses. In Massachusetts are Knightdale Merck seller to paddock had to pause fulfillment of merchandise orders. But listen. They're still able to take orders if you want to support independent artists and businesses. We encourage you to go get cool stuff at two paddock. Oh Dot Com. They have all the night. Ville Merch plus Merch for dozens of other amazing artists like the adventures zone. Kate left Matt Loop Shanansky and Flash Forward. Think of the joy you'll have in a few weeks went to paddock reopens and you get a sweet package of good. Good things in the mail. That's two paddock. O. T. O. P. A. T. O. C. O. DOT COM or. Just go to walk them tonight. Ville DOT COM and Click on store. That'll take you there too. If you'RE A KNIGHTDALE PATRIOT. We have been doing these weekly. Quarantine variety shows for weird scout level and higher. These shows are there to entertain you with story songs poems and laughs. If you're not a night. Ville patron please consider joining GOTO PATRIOT DOT com slash. Welcome to Night Vale and finally our new Knightdale novel the faceless woman who secretly lives in your home is out now you can get it wherever you get books. Were so proud of this novel. It's such a fun horror adventure with a really really cool ending. We're so proud of this book. So get it wherever you could books or if you WANNA list of independent stores selling it go to welcome tonight. Ville DOT com slash books? And Hey thanks. There are more things in heaven and Earth Horatio than are written about on Wikipedia. Welcome to Night Vale. Charles Rayner grew up in becket Massachusetts nestled in the rolling small hills of the berkshires fiery fall leaves Pristine Winter Snowfall lush spring flowers and sparkling summer lakes belied the average life of young Charles. He went to school past his classes. He spent time with friends seeing popular movies and playing Popular Games. His family ate food together and generally got along when he wanted to be alone. He went to a small pond hidden in the woods to fish. He studied sociology at Amherst College and graduated in the top fifty percent of his class. Nothing about his unremarkable upbringing indicated. He would one day be standing in the middle of a desert behind a road block holding a rifle and a flashlight and searching for fugitives from his own asylum. Last month a dozen inmates of the Night Vale asylum escaped during a production of play as an attendee of that play. I would say that while the escape was clearly not part of the original draft of the script it made for an exciting resolution. I mean about thirty minutes in Carlos and I were like. Is there going to be a car chase or a shootout or something? I mean that play was Boho hoarding and then suddenly there was both but the warden Charles Rayner from becket Massachusetts did not like the last minute edits to the plot as he and the sheriff's secret police have yet to round up any of the inmates now on the run somewhere. In our vast desert they feel citizens have expressed deep concerns about their safety. A ski thing op Ed. In yesterday's Daily Journal by Leonhard Red Ward. Rainer should never have been in charge of such an important institution. He's unchecked irresponsibility will lead us all to be killed by psychopaths who surely hide now inside. It's our ethics our laundry hampers. Perhaps inside our own pants pockets. The editorial continued they wield knives ropes wrenches candlesticks or pipes. And when we least expect it these crazed killers will leap out at US screaming about eating faces or feeding us to rodents or whatever other evil actions. Those two very funny women are always describing on my favorite marriage. Air Charles Rayner. Cold hearts claims neuro typical. Able ISM saying that we become too biased from movies and TV shows that play up harmful tropes about mental illnesses. He added that none of the people inside. Were of immediate danger. To any individual in Knight fail the Night Vale. Chapter of the ACLU than responded calling for an investigation into a public facility that would imprison people who had committed. No criminal acts and were of no harm to society. Charles Rayner replied. I said they wouldn't hurt any individual. I didn't say they were of no harm to society. But who were the people in the asylum Carlos and I attended the production of the play one eight. Seven one three backslash. Ntsb partially to have a nice date night. Just the two of us but also because I was curious if I would see Amelia and a Faro there. The air traffic controller has not been seen since two thousand twelve after hearing voices from the missing Flight Delta. One eight seven one three. There were rumors. She was checked into the asylum other rumors that she had gone off to find the missing plane and other other rumors that she was disappeared by a vague yet. Menacing government agency. Amelia was not inside the asylum. The night of the breakout but Doug Biondi was there. He played the pilot of the missing plane. In the play we saw doug was the impetus for this entire story really because he was doug who according to Sheriff Sam had real information about the missing plane members of the National Transportation and Safety Board had also come tonight failed to talk to doug about what he knew. And Sheriff Sam obliged by sending those agents from Washington DC on an undercover investigation into the asylum yet like Doug and the dozens of other inmates in that fearful place they did not return according to Doug Beyond these journal which Carlos and I found inside the asylum after the play warden Charles Rayner developed a paradoxical logic for dealing with his inmates he encouraged to talk openly about their feelings under the guise of healing them. But the more. They expressed their thoughts and emotions the more the warden used this information as proof of their insanity and by extension in eligibility for release but as Doug collaborates. If inmates refused to talk they were deemed uncooperative and of course in eligible for release reading further into Doug's journal. I realized it's just like that novel catch twenty two in that. There's a bunch of talk about airplanes. What stood out most to me. Though was the fact that every other inmate Doug mentions also talked about the missing Delta flight every single person in there either heard voices of the passengers or had theories about what happened or were in the case the ESPN agents. Just hoping to find survivors of missing plane. Doug availed against the collusion between the warden and the sheriff to imprison people simply because they knew something anything about flight one. Eight seven one. Three this is the last thing Doug wrote the day he escaped this nefarious conspiracy runs deep deeper than we can imagine. There are innocent people on a missing plane and our government wants to destroy us for seeking the truth. Oh well in other news they fixed the TV in the REC room. So I'm hoping to finally watch cheer on Net flicks. Everyone says it's super good. Doug makes a compelling claim here but he is wrong about the conspiracy thing not about cheer. That show is super good so back in two thousand fifteen. My devoted husband and devoted scientists Carlos was heading a research project into a desert other world. A place very similar to our own. We spent almost a year apart while cornelisz was in this alternate dimension performing experiments and drawing charts and pouring bubbling liquids. Back and forth between flasks. It was hard. We had only been dating a year when he left. But we kept in touch talking almost every day sending each other text messages at night. Like a a kissy-faced Emoji with a big Red Heart Emoji or sometimes we sent racier messages like these safety goggles. Emoji with the Police Siren Emoji and the first place Ribbon Emoji. Oh sorry if that's a little too graphic anyway. Cordless made friends during his many months out of town and so when he finally decided to return to Night Vale some of those he met followed him. They came through a portal Carlos discovered in the desert other world. He one sided door. It was difficult to find in a never ending sand scape but it is still there and as Carlos said once you know the way you'd never forget it one of the people who came with Carlos through the portal in two thousand fifteen was Charles Rayner of becket Massachusetts. It was not easy for most of these new arrivals to find comfort or employment in Knightdale but in just a few months. Charles had become friends with our new sheriff and secured himself a job at the Night Vale asylum. Few people looked deeply at the asylum nor at Charles. Raynor's quick appointment as warden. Few people in fact looked closely at anything to do with mental disorders. It is almost as if we prefer not to see mental illness at all. It is almost exactly like that. Well below the radar of public attention Charles settled into his new position and because there were no accounts of what went on in the asylum and thus no stories of failure. It was inferred that he did a good job but Carla's discovered something this week in reading. Doug Beyond these journal Doug makes passing mention of Warden. Rainer cautioning his inmates against listening to the Voice of the pilot. The warden warns them that the pilot can control other beings with his mind. It is odd that the head of a mental health institution would patronize patients with their own. Inner Demons Carlos at I thought the war was manipulating the mental stability of his charges to stir up there. Fear and confusion in order to keep them there. We don't know if the board in profited from retaining inmates or if he just felt an evil thrill from playing these games but in Doug's notes the warden apparently said it is possible to escape the allure of the pilot the power of his voice. Some have but it is rare and it is dangerous that you can hear him at all. Carlos remembered when he first met Charles Rayner. Five years ago in the desert of world. Charles was so enthralled with Carlos is stories of Knight Fail. Charles Rayner could not wait to see this fantastic town and more importantly to leave the terrible place in which he lived. He told Carlos that he escaped some frightening people there. Turtles Rayner said he'd lived in a commune for a couple of years. It began okay. They forged hunted their food. They helped each other and shared shelter inside the fuselage of an old plane. Everything was fine. They were alive but soon the group became cult like and aggressive fashioning weapons and manufacturing enemies the constant threat of violence toward others towards themselves shackled. Charles's every move. But he could not leave. Every time he tried. He heard a voice that called him back so he trained himself to block out the voices. It took him weeks of determined practice but finally he broke free. Carlos said to me. See sel sweetie. My hypothesis is Charles. Rayner was flying home from Detroit to Albany on June Fifteenth Twenty twelve. And I said what are you saying? Honey pop and Carlin said Bape. His plane blipped out of the sky and into the desert other world. And I said are you saying Kitty cake that Charles was passenger on Delta one eight seven one three but then Carlo said you know Little Piggy Pie Hole? This work talk is exhausting. Let's have a glass of wine. Sit Out on the deck and enjoy the nice weather. Even take your time All too much today. You Scott Donate H Jones Brie. Brie take some days you WANNA RECOVERS TODAY TO BE SPRAYED. Take breathing take do Brie Brie cute listeners. I called Charles Raider and I told him what core listen I talked about and he confirmed what we discovered. He was indeed a passenger on one. Eight seven one three. They landed roughly but safely in the desert of the world in June. Twenty twelve the few food items and drink their water stores in two days and soon they began spreading out to find civilization but the desert was vast and seemingly uninhabited. They were too afraid to venture far from the plane. The only symbol of recognizable society. The pilot led expeditions to find plant. Life and sources of water. Heater exuded calmness and clarity and the passengers followed his example occasionally finding peace in this unpleasant frightening desert within a few months they had developed a rhythm. They were finding food to eat water to drink. The pilots seemed to know exactly where to hunt exactly what to say exactly how to behave. Every passenger fell in line. They all had jobs to do roles to fill in this little commune. The fuselage kept them sheltered from the searing white days and the ICY black nights. Sometimes they sing together. Walked together taught each other how to so how to cook how to make tools. The passengers fear became rotary which became unity which became family which eventually became religiosity. One day they were making salves from CACTI and the next they were crafting. Weapons Charles had realized the debt I but every person on that plane could communicate telepathically. They could speak without talking without learning. They were becoming a single organism separated into dozens of bodies the loudest voice in their heads. The pilot they had grown too complacent and the pilot began. Fill them once again with fear. Fear of outsiders the rest of the world it began to make barbaric expeditions. Hooping defined people or things to destroy. I tried to escape Charles said to me I tried to escape over and over but the voice was too strong it was only when I thought about a little fishing hole down near Stockbridge that I would go to in summers by myself to get away to be alone. Charles said he began to pantomine fishing. Casting is imaginary lure on imaginary line into an imaginary pawned on hot desert sand when he did this the voices quite his mind. He could free himself from the pilot's voice from the pilots controlled. I asked Charles why he sheriff sambor locking away people just for knowing about the plane he said see so. I locked up. Doug biondi before anyone else. He's from that other world and he goes to get back and defeating knows how to get back. He'll join the one eight seven one three and lead them into knight fail. Charles said he was protecting our little town from the threat of the passengers of Delta flight. One eight seven one three the pilot enlists Doug and gets into Night Vale. He'll recruit who he can and destroy the rest indicate only through Doug I mean why not. Carlos Ordina Cardinal Law. Sheriff Sam Themself. Why not recruit everyone? Who knows the way in tonight fail? I don't know seasonal Charles. Snap back. We'll it into existence by capping about it either so drop it listeners. Doug biondi is about six foot tall within unsettling long. Smile and dark nightmarish is few Siham. Contact the sheriff's Office immediately. If you do not see Doug Biondi than close your windows. Hold your family close and repeat a mantra that will clear your head of all outside thoughts. Stay tuned next for a meditative own a single oh for one full hour uninterrupted by breath and commercial free could Knight Knight Fail. Good night this. Podcast is brought to you by another podcast. Dust the premium sci-fi brand. That brought you the hit. Podcast horizons is back with their second season flight. Zero zero eight flight. Zero Zero Eight is written by eleven of the biggest writers in science fiction and is brought to life by an all-star cast including Danny trae. Oh Dan Stevens. Callisto flockhart Keith. David Reed Scott and Alfred Molina the first season of the dust. Podcast horizons was named stitchers best in fiction. Twenty nineteen and I cannot imagine anything less for the second season season. Two of dust follows flight zero zero eight from Tokyo to San Francisco as it passes through a wrinkle in Space Time and touches down twenty years in the future. Listeners can find dust on apple spotify. Stitcher and everywhere. Podcasts are found. New EPISODES DROP EVERY WEDNESDAY. More information on this season of dust can be found at flight. Zero zero eight DOT COM. Welcome to night. Vale is a production of Knightdale presents. It is written by Joseph. Think and Jeffrey Craner and produced by disparition the Voice of Night Vale see so Baldwin Original Music by disparition all if it can be found at disparition dot info or at disparition Dot van Camp Dot Com. This episodes weather was breathed by Tanya Dab find out more at Tanya Dab dot band Camp Dot Com. That's T. A. N. J. A. D. A. U. B. comments questions. Email us at info at welcome to night mail DOT COM or. Follow us on twitter at night. Vel Radio or live your most medium life. Today's proverb the greatest trick. The devil ever played was Designing Hotel Lotion. Dispensers to look exactly like hand. Soap dispensers high above Peres near the top of the Eiffel Tower here and all adventure featuring this janitor. I can come these stagehands Jack and this drunken out of control diva flattery. Okay you know where my dressing room the orbiting human circus in Naughty New Year listen now from wnyc studios in Knightdale presents.

Charles Rayner Doug Biondi Charles Carlos Night Vale Knightdale Massachusetts disparition Dot van Camp Dot C Jeffrey Craner Rainer Knightdale Merck Camp Dot Com Night Vale Charles Raider US Kate O. T. O. P. A. T. O. C. David Reed Scott Amherst College Ntsb
Business Disruption Insurance Talk with Bill Eiland

Cheers To Business

22:10 min | 9 months ago

Business Disruption Insurance Talk with Bill Eiland

"Welcome to the show today. We're GONNA talk about business interruption if it does or doesn't exclude viruses. What are your choices. What can you do and to help? Answer those questions. We had Bill Island Attorney from Alan and Richie on today new. He not been friends a long time and they've got some good information that's going to help give us some direction on what we needed to get ahead of the game. Hey I'm Karen I'm a former. Cpa entrepreneur business consultant with big ideas on the mom. Katie I'm a payroll specialist business owner and detail oriented person that makes things happen and on the daughter. Welcome to tears to business. Feel welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. I down each other for a really long time. Haven't we just a couple of years about twenty years now back when this when we were fifteen years old when we first met so that makes us thirty five years old walking turning thirty nine about now about twelve times now so good so today you know everything we've been doing for the past four or five weeks we've had an employment attorney on? Yar wiggins has been on twice young entrepreneurs. I think the next front we're GONNA see with this thing is business interruption. Insurance in some most policies are being denied. And can you tell us about that? Businesses can do it. This is still kind of uncharted territory. We are looking at any business Out there that has business interruption insurance and and most companies You know even if it's a small business typically these companies have this coverage even though they may not even know they have. I've talked to many employers and and business owners that you know when I asked them if they have been business interruption insurance they say well you know. I don't think so or I don't know only to find out that they do. And what that insurance is for is exactly what it sounds like. If there's something that happens typically with a hurricane or storm or something of that nature that interrupts that business where you cannot operate like you typically can it is. It is the crucial bit of insurance. But as you just mentioned in what we're seeing right now and I'll explain the reasons the second most insurance companies were saying. No no no no. It doesn't cover something like this. The San it might it might now. We have looked at many and I do not want to give people false hope. We have looked at many insurance policies. That sure enough. After looking at it and having our experts and complicated language that you see in every insurance policy we've got the people involved at letting them kind of peruse through these policies. We looked at one last weight of one hundred pages. Now a Lotta these policies they have what's called a virus and even some of them have a hand democ exclusion You Know I. I don't know if I'd ever heard the word pandemic before all this but it apparently was on the Dolphin. Minds of some of these companies Years ago and so they have a specific exclusion that says that if your businesses interrupted because of a virus or a pandemic the coverage does not apply. And and really. There's there's not much they can be done right now and I emphasized right now because there may be something that can happen but so there's a lot of policies that do exclude and more more policies than not that. These businesses have that exclude coverage however we came across the other day. It absolutely applies. Because there's no exclusion I'd sell had business policies forever and multiple looseness policies and it is hard spun head to look at them. They're fully legally. They're hundred pages. Hey you cannot get to look at my policies any lower again not not pat myself promote myself my firm but we looking at these and any business can get their policy to me. Just make a copy of it and it is confidential. We don't disseminate it to anybody. We will take a look at it. Have our experts take a look at it and we will make a determination free of charge as to whether we believe that they have a potential claim. And if they do so they can if they choose to hire us and to allow us to try to prosecute the case and try to get them the coverage that they deserve then. We'll do it but there is no obligation free of charge. Look at For us or for us to look at the pulse let them. Yeah for Marine exhausted. I am now I want you to look at that. So how do I get that to you? You can email it to either me my secretary my my paralegal and then we will immediately get it to the expert that That we're using and they are again. They user these experts. And like you said you know these are complicated policies. These are you know as you mentioned while ago. You have one hundred page policy. And they'll be one page of what they cover and then ninety nine pages of exclusions and so you know these. These companies are are not stupid. That's why insurance companies make as much money as they do They love taking premiums Zan. But they do not look like pay claims a drug commercial. It's the this That's Oh yeah no. Yeah it'll say a decrease your blood pressure but you know you may die in your sleep. You know the first night you take it so I would encourage everybody. There's nothing to lose. Sabine until all your friends anybody that you know. That owns a business. Now if you cut grass and landscape on the side and you're not incorporated and you do not have general liability insurance than you're not gonNA be qualifying for this but if you own a restaurant if you on a tax accounting company award ever see a car dealership it can be anything if you only business and if you have insurance policy get it to us. We'll take a look at it and see if we can try to guide you through it. Okay you said e mail it newgate three people. But what's an address? What's the best email address to send these thing? I'll give you a couple of my email addresses bay for bill and then it's E. I l. a. n. d. at E. R. Law Firm. And that's all one word e R. Law firm DOT COM so it's be island at E. R. Law firm DOT COM. And then the the other email I would give you as my sister. Holly Jones and her email is h Jones at the same email address. E R LAWFIRM DOT COM and. I would send it to both of us because we are as everybody. You know. We're in different times right now. We are. I'm working from the house a good bit as I am right now but if you email you can you can. I think you. May you know people out. There may just want to shoot me an email and say. Hey Bill outcast. I've liked for you. Look at my policy. And then we'll make arrangements to get that policy either by email or they can make a copy mail through me copy and drop it off at the office but we will take a look at it and again there's no obligation and it's one hundred percent free of charge fantastic. I said next as this thing is gonNA escalate at sea in the future. I did a little research myself and what I saw. Was that the the proof of the interruptions going to be a lot of financial reporting how it was and how it is now and it reminded me here on the Gulf coast of going through for the big money reminded me and out another takeaway. I think for this show is too is if you do have a case and or your insurance saying no when you do start as saints about this minute state possibly mandating the business interruption insurance own encourage everybody to go ahead and give their financials in order. You don't know how as one reason I have the master classes that teach people how to get their financial information in order. Because you can't go somebody to somebody inside. Hey my business was interrupted. Give me some mind. You prove it numbers. No absolutely no what I would encourage. People is to get get ahead of this. Because like you mentioned I do believe the states. And maybe even the federal government or the mandate and force insurance companies to some degree to to pay these claims perhaps even if there's an exclusion in the in this covered you know. There's politicians out there right now. Trying to save their behinds On both sides of the aisle and so who who knows what's left the com- you know I do believe we're going to see several more stimulus packages. Some of this may be rolled into these. And but so it's it's it's best right now the jump on this and again. Good God I. I know that you know I wouldn't know the first thing about. I mean even you know. I'm a lawyer. May Allen Richie on our own firm. I don't know anything about this stuff is far as you know you could ask me a month and a half ago if I had a business interruption policy now that said I'm not sure because that's just not what I did. That's not my Kinda Forte. So to speak is is is not the nuts and bolts of the business side and a lot of people that own businesses restaurants or whatever it is. They're creative people that are there to to do whatever their craft is that they do and they let somebody else typically handle all the minutia of the business stuff and so just get somebody get. Get it to somebody. Let them take a look at it. We can walk it for just like Your Business. Everybody's were all protective well. The insurance companies are going to be protective over there. We sources a narrow reserves as well seven. This thing is now. We can't pay a claim. That's why we have insurance adjusters. You're right and you mentioned and I've I've been using that same example that you mentioned a little while ago been telling everybody is very similar to the BP oil spill however of course this is even bigger I believe is ours that financial just destruction that this thing is done. But unlike the there's no target defendant that you can. You can't sue the virus you know unlike you could be in. You can't sue the virus. There's been talk about you know. Well maybe we can China one day with that. You have a better chance of snow. Snowing in August and Alabama. How we've got things people can do is run once you are someone else like you I highly recommend new job. Been with the guys and I will good In the beginning of the arm Enjoyed Lacalle with you over the years and I really think a lot of UN Alan. And so I am going to send you mine exhaust policy so you can look that ever yet. Your Policy Tucson and bill's GonNa give his all his website contact Info in little bit and number to get ahead of the game and get on. Your financials financials. In order with Egypt may reach out reach out to your CPI sad ours. Reach out to get yourself in order in but number three. What can people do to get ready to go to the next phase of this thing that keeps changing you well? I don't know if it's a member three but it kind of goes back to number one. The business that we looked at their policy last week and we found that there was no virus exclusion and we are now at Because the insurance company had already denied liability. They said now. This is something different. Even though there is no virus exclusion they already denied so since we have the denial and and then we call the adjuster. I did and said Hey. You WanNa reconsider this. They said No. It's not covered on something like this. I didn't argue that do anything. But we're about to file class action lawsuit now against that particular insurance company on behalf of every business that they cover and it could be could be just local. It can be nationwide because they've they've already stepped in it and they we gave them a chance and they know very well that they should be covering on this situation but the reason they say no and again getting back to number one. If you're if you've been denied by your adjuster which you are going to be. Don't just take their word for just like in a car wreck or slip all or whatever just because they say well you don't have a case there. Unfortunately too many people go well. I guess I don't have a case. And then they just get it in a situation like this. You're going to get denied. You might as well look at it or get someone an expert to take a look at it to see if you do have a case because we're going to be a lot of people out there that don't think they have cases that are going to eventually have have any questions. I follow up on this. Because it's not gonna go anywhere is going to evolve is gonNA people are GonNa need more information so you know if you will likely to come you know. Come back on our listeners to either email main questions to Ascii or go to our website cheers the business dot com cheers on facebook. The questions and what's really get on this thing to make sure people are prepared that I think that's the biggest thing is people. Were not prepared for this said now we know about it. You're not in a row a Hannah Tom. So tell tell listeners. And Allan Allan Rich's contact information Yes thank you for that and and I will tell Say One more thing if the people that are like if you're listening right now you're not a business owner and you may say well this doesn't apply to me but if you have family members or friends our next door neighbors or whoever it is if you think this might apply to them please reach out the Bam and let them know because they may not know this and they they may not be listening to this podcast or seeing me on all so absolutely just reach out to anybody and everybody that you know this might apply to again. My name is Bill Island. It's EI land. My office number is two five one. Six six six to one two and again. My email address is be island at E. R. Law Firm DOT COM. And then you can also go to our website which is E. R. Law firm DOT COM and. I believe we facebook page as well. But you know anytime you need and then. I would encourage people to watch law call on on. Wb WE BEEN COMING on since two thousand six. We haven't missed a Sunday since two thousand six. We come on at ten thirty at night on Sunday right after the knees and as you can imagine the last four five weeks this is basically talking about all things Barris related not only business interruption. But also how it's affected the courthouse system and cases and child support orders than it's really done a number on a lot of different. Thanks so if you had any questions you can always call us We we Kinda know. The sounds Kinda hokey but we gotta eat the voice of reason in the legal voice in here no bill not screaming and shout and and jumping up and down and talking about how much money we got our class. We want people to in a because people are scared right now. We want to see if there's anything we can do for people we're dry. I think it's about being fair. Never I duNno that. Getting greedy never got anybody anywhere. We didn't already pay for it if I pay insurance in. And now it won't pay you not exclusion. I think I like late. Deserve to be paid. Absolutely you know I mean I hear this a lot people say you know. I had a woman come into my office last month. Who has been paying for twenty five years been paying for uninsured motorist coverage and she was hit by a person that had no insurance and so I told her said well. The bad news is person has no insurance. The good news is you have uninsured motorist coverage which will take care of this claim and she said Oh no no no no. I can't do that and I said why she said. Well I've been you know I I don't blame you to my insurance company. Didn't do anything wrong. So I'm not gonNA make a claiming we'll ma'am you've been paying for this insurance for over twenty five years and it's just for this particular occasion if the other side didn't have insurance and here you go and she said No. I don't think it's the right thing to do and I just I. I'm just amazed and she. She refuses to make a clean and but she's been paying for that insurance. So the point is like you said you WanNa get what you pay for? And if he's been paying premiums or something that applies then you should be able to be reimbursed under the terms of policy. We're not asking for companies to do anything other than what they're required today my campfire you know when I had the CPA firm on and file for BP had opened a petite thousand ten. But I didn't follow it because money off of it to me. That was wrong. That was unethically. I was not hurt by. I was helped by. So why should I benefit from it? Because I already was. I'm all about that. Would make preach class action ever ever ever and but this is a different ball game in this people's Livelihood. Being children were at a time but bill. Thank you so much for coming on the Xiao any last takeaways for people again. There's no reason to not reach out somebody on this again. It is not going to cost you a dime. Don't think that there's some kind of the bait and switch situation going on where you know you bring in the policy. And they were like we're like how we've got you now we're GonNa make much money off of this. That's not what is you. Give us the policy. We'll take a look at it. If we think you've got a potential playing we'll let you know and then we'll let you know what we think that she should do from that point. You may very well not have a claim but he may have again. You may have a claim in the future. What's the government gets involved and starts mandating some of these insurance companies to pay so. Go ahead get your ducks in a row. Now let me or someone take a look at your policy. And then we'll give you an assessment as to what you need to do in the future Glad you said that because I did think this is going to evolve with the state mandating and you know. I have Monday pages to see a consulting services and I've been putting. Sba P P. E. L. information out inside life to include this kind of information. If you can keep you posted an just forget listener. That'd be great. I we never show with cheers to. What are you say cheers to right now? This weird time years too long standing friendships business and regular. That's right exactly cheers the my family. We haven't killed each other yet. My wife and is a daughter lives in Chicago. And we were actually in Chicago in mid March For the Saint Patrick's Day parade. 'cause he finally had an off week and that's when all hell broke loose this thing and so we came back and then we brought her back with us because they've been completely shut down up there so it's been nice to have we've got daughter back. She she leaves probably at the end of this month and then ar signed. They shut down South Alabama. So he's he's at home so we're kind of the big happy family again and and we've made the most of it is bad. Obviously but there's some good takeaways you can have from this. Yes at the beginning if we chased. Look at it from the left or the right Dear it's all and I think there's some opportunities for people on here in the way you've been businesses. I decided to be right now. Also one thing about the families us all a joke online. That guy said he said of sitting on the looked over and I saw this pretty blind and come to find out. We've been married for twenty five years. She's not so bad after all so many more people are starting to get to know each other a little bit better. Maybe some not for the good you know. They say that the the soup professions that are going to do well on this or talks a lawyer unfortunately bankruptcy orders but also divorce lawyer so we'll We'll see what happens with this. That's right that's right. Thank you for coming on a sweetheart letty. When when when you come back please be sure to subscribe to cheers business. Podcast on itunes or anywhere else that you get your podcast visit our facebook and be sure to give us a like and if you have any questions or topics you'd like us to discuss shoot us. An email from the website cheers to business dot com.

DOT COM business owner facebook Allen Richie Bill Island Chicago Karen I Yar wiggins Holly Jones Katie I consultant attorney San Bill Gulf
'Valentine's Views' podcast: Amidst unrest, NFL players find their voices

Big Blue View

26:02 min | 8 months ago

'Valentine's Views' podcast: Amidst unrest, NFL players find their voices

"Podcast listeners. We are amazing avenue the espy nation new. York mets site. I'm Chris McShane and every week. Brian, Salvator and I discussed the current state of the mets Automated Avenue audio the show we try to look at the mets from a somewhat logical point of view, and not get too deep into panic city. We also answer your emails. Give weekly music recommendations and try not to get too frustrated with the team. You can find the show on apple podcasts on stitcher. By wherever you get your podcasts and let's go mets. Hello giants fans welcome to a new edition of the Valentine's views podcast here on big Louie radio part of your SP nation family of podcasts I'm your host Ed Valentine of big, Blue View. You Know Big Blue View is a football site. Big Blue Radio is a football podcast. We try very hard to to keep the focus on football to stay away from from politics to stay away from social issues to keep the conversation on your new. York giants, unfortunately with the way. Things are in this country right now. It is very difficult to do that. That, it is pretty much necessary to talk about the social issues that are going on in this country, the racial injustice, the policing situation in the wake of of the killing of George Floyd we pretty much have to do that especially, since so many athletes right now, including some members of your New York, giants like saquon Barkley have been so outspoken in. In, reference to to the floyd situation have been so active on social media in speaking out. You know for police, reform and things of that nature, so we pretty much have to address that topic and we are going to do that today via an interview that I did with Lindsey Jones of the athletic who has been covering a lot of the athletes reactions to to the this situation, a lot of of what's going on with NFL players and players in other sports, so let's get to that right now. Here is an interview. That I did with Lindsey Jones. Right giants fans I am joined now by Lindsay Jones of the athletes. As we talk about. Some of the the protests and some of what's been going on in the NFL, and Lindsey has been doing some really good work at the at the athletic talking to. Pro Athletes about about what's going on so Lindsey. Thank you very very much for coming on to talk about this. Really important topic share had thanks for having me. Hey, so let's let's get right to it. I mean the big. The first thing I want to ask. You is through all of the the the things that you've that you've heard from. NFL players other professional players. As you've talked about this in and written about this, what? What has surprised you really about the reaction, or what really have you learned? That you really might not have known before you started all of this. I think there's there's a lot of layers to it. You know I think we're really going back. About two weeks now I believe George Floyd was killed. I think exactly two weeks ago. Actually in the video came out a day later, so we're just about at the two week. Mark here. And almost immediately after that video was was leaked, was published there was more backlash or more respond, not backlash backlash towards the police for sure, but more just more response across sports than we've really seen to two other incidents, and you know the it came on the heels of Ahmad Armory. Where we saw some player, activism and post messages there so it's just like been building. I think over. These last couple months. It's a really specific moment in time where there are no sports happening, so there's the the impulse to say. Oh, stick to sports or you know we want. We don't want this to be a distraction from our games or practices or whatever. There's none of that right now, so. I think there's a multitude of factors that we have to consider one is just how heinous the video was that there's no way that you could watch that video and hear what you heard on that video and see what you saw that video and not believe that it was wrong and I. Think just the fact that there was that video made it easier for a lot of athletes to speak up that maybe haven't in the past. It kind of became. A good entry point to people who have maybe not waded into this conversation before but in terms of like things that are new and surprising. I think initially especially within that first week it was the number of white athletes and especially white football players who were? Engaging in this conversation that you know it was. It was Carson Winston Zakar with the eagles. It was Derek Carr with the Raiders Jj, Watt were the for the Texans these some of the first guys who were who were speaking up Tom Brady. Signed off on the players, coalition initiatives and their call to action on in these are things that we largely have not seen before. It's been very few, and far between that we've seen white athletes can participate in this space. You know standing up side by side with their with their black peers. So that was really notable, obviously drew brees waded into the conversation last week, which was an interesting move that maybe we'll discuss as well and now it's kind of different conversation but you know I think just wanted the. You know it's it's been bigger than the NFL. It's been bigger than the group of athletes who have always been talking about this because they're a bunch of guys in the League whether it's. Guys were active when the players coalition you know, Malcolm Jenkins and Mario Davis and the mccourty brothers in New England. And then Kenny Stills Eric. Reed, who are not members of the Players Coalition Michael Thomas who you guys know well with with the giants who obviously just left, but he was. He's been involved in these conversations in this space for a very long time. So it's. It's more than just those guys, and it's a cross sports. Talk to us for story last week, I talked to WNBA athletes. I talked to professional tennis players. We're seeing collegiate athletes speak out numbers like we've never seen before where they are holding marches and rallies on their campuses and posting on twitter. So I think that it's really seems like. kind of a watershed moment in terms of player activism, and the thing that I'm most curious about and really want to know, and I've been trying to do reporting, but it's it's. It's evolving rapidly. Is What is this to look like? When sports come comes back and I. Think we've moved further. You know we're. We're further into that conversation here today on I guess. What is this June? Eighth than we were five days ago in my story published just in terms of how many athletes we think will actually engage in some sort of peaceful protests. What Roger Goodell has said. But yeah, it's it's kind of been evolving and I. Don't think this story is anywhere close to being over. You Lindsay. You touched on it a little bit, but that's kind of where I wanted to go. You mentioned the idea that right now. There are no sports except for except for for Nascar I mean the guys who make left turns only pretty much, but. But. What from your conversations, and just you know from from your your gut feeling having talked to people. Does this. We've seen protests before. We've seen some athletes speak out before, but this feels different. Does. This does this when we start to get sports back. Does this start to fade into the background, or does this have in your mind in? Does this have staying power terms of athletes really being involved out at the forefront of this and he I mean that is that is the million dollar question here and I really think it's you know. It's really gonNA. Be largely up to the athletes themselves. I think there's going to be a lot of onus. On the League's. That has now said a lot and put out a lot of statements to make sure that they don't disappear as well It's going to be about. Their resources financial. And their power resources behind. The things that they've talked about now. Where But yeah. I mean. I know that there's a group of players, the ones who've been the loudest and already the most active. They're not GonNa let this go day are going to keep talking about it. My big question is. The folks who've merely posted on social media. A you know especially a lot of white athletes. Where are they going to be in September and you know we might get a head. Start on this with the NBA. The NFL might NFL players might be able to take q a little bit from what NBA players doing. You know if they're engaging in some sort of protest store conversations while they're coming back and everybody's really paying attention to the NBA coming back We don't know if Major League baseball ever GONNA come back at this point. Actually how involved baseball will be in that conversation, you know we've actually heard from a lot of hockey players who can? This is a totally different space for hockey players. Which hockey obviously is. Very White and also very international sport, so the fact that hockey players have been speaking out and talking about racism within their sports and learning about racism in their communities and What's happening in America? I think there's opportunity there. I would expect that NBA players will not stop talking about this. I mean they have been among among the most socially progressive and active athletes across sports WNBA whenever WNBA comes back expect there'll be a leader in the space as well. And I think you know the leaders in the NFL space. I think they're going to keep pushing for this and the fact that we have seen so many players including star players are now involved in this movement. The NFL you know it was Patrick. mahomes was in that players video. Shawn Watson was in that players video. Ezekiel Elliott saquon Barkley. Michael Thomas the receiver from the Saints Who Organizer Tyrone Matthew. Mean these are some of the biggest names and stars in the NFL and they're not gonNA. Let it go and if they don't let it go, then that's going to hold the League accountable. You know that's the that's the other question. Obviously change. Begins with conversation, but when we talk purely about the NFL in about athletes, I mean you know it's it's not for us to decide you know what happens with policing in this country and all of that, but the NFL has its own issues with hiring of minorities. The Colin Kaepernick situation you. That sort of started the whole. The whole protest movement of a few years ago. You know obviously we talk about. Will players remain active, but in terms of the NFL do we have any idea at this point what it is that players are actually going to want from their league. We saw Roger Goodell's video. But again, and those were great words, but they're still words. Yeah, do do we know what the players are actually asking their leagues for yet or do they even know? Yeah I'm not sure if they one hundred percent now and we do have to be careful not to just like lump all players and together because you know, there's two thousand during the regular season, there's about two thousand players in the NFL, and so that's a lot of different interests will very much learn that. That during the negotiations back which feels like eighteen years ago, it was actually only march when the only pass really by a handful of votes you know I think one thing though that we hear from a lot of players, I think we're going to continue airing from a lot of players as they would like a more specific apology to Colin Kaepernick directly from the League It was the one part of the video that Roger Goodell didn't repeat line by line. The players in their video. They said that they request a they. They wanted an apology for silencing players. Roger Goodell rewrote that to say to apologize for not listening to players concerns on this issue sooner, so you know I think. A lot of players and I think there's a lot of people outside of players to. Human people who work within the League office of just something that we learned in the reporting of a story over the weekend. There's a lot of people who want acknowledgement of what happened to Colin Kaepernick and the League's role in keeping him out of the league since the end of the twenty sixteen season capper nickname has really been a taboo subject within league offices, and within most teams allow a lot of League officials team were subpoenaed and had to give depositions during their court case I mean. Net, but now it does feel like. Maybe there's a little movement that. You know on one end of the spectrum would be con- cabinet, getting signed and getting the chance to come back in the league and. Just show that he can play or wants to play or even be a backup quarterback You know I think another face that would just be some sort of actual acknowledgment that the league was wrong in the way that handled twenty seventeen and the player protest. I think there's a lot of players who would like more specific in explicitly written policy that says they are encouraged to speak their minds and peacefully protest You know I think. Especially in light of what trump has tweeted lately. It's important to just remember exactly what the policy is in place and in two thousand eighteen, so this was kind of a year, may of two thousand eighteen, so off season, after the two thousand seventeen season, which saw all sorts of rollercoaster with this where there was the one week that there were two hundred players doing some foreign protests. To other weekends where they're only handful and just much debate trump waiting in all the time, so that thousand eighteen off-season owners did pass a policy in which they said that players would be required to stand during the anthem if they were on the sideline, they have the option to stay in the locker room if they chose to and then teams who had players that did not comply. Or. That chose to kneel. Those teams could be fined, and they're in. It did leave open the window for player punishment. that was a policy that was passed without the NFL. PA and by that summer, so you know before the regular season kind of throughout training camp, they effectively tabled it. Added! Yes, policy passed. We're not going to enforce it neat. We need to have more discussion. We need to have the players involved in this conversation, and that really ended it. Nothing has changed in those years. So you know nose. Sort of policy has been enforced. No players have been formerly punished or fined. Multiple players have continued to kneel over the last couple of years so while. It has it. I WANNA make it hasn't been prohibited at also hasn't been encouraged and I. DO think there's you know a significant portion of the NFL player population right now that would like. Some sort of formal acknowledgement that takes should be encouraged to to protest if they want. The challenge there is that while Roger, Goodell has come out now and said that he encourages pet players to peacefully protest. He didn't explicitly say kneeling. The problem is that there's probably a lot of or the challenges that there's probably not a lot of owners, or at least some owners who might be in line with that sort of statement you know we know what Jerry Jones has been on the record saying multiple times of the last few years. you know I? Think there are some owners who would certainly support what what Roger Goodell did and follow mine with or online with what the players have been asking for. You know Jeffrey Lurie's a prime example of that Jed York in San Francisco But until we kind of hear that from ownership. It's you know it it, doesn't it? Roger Goodell's words are hollow by any means. It was really important for the commissioner to stay what he did, but the owners have so much power the owners Roger. Goodell's boss, so the one of these outstanding questions is how are the owners going to respond? Are they going to side with their players that have spoken in mass numbers, and so loudly recently or Will they do what they did? In two, thousand, sixteen, in two, twenty, seventeen and Ten of side with the president. You know the interesting thing and I was I was going to ask you in in, and I just don't think we know yet because we're. We're still three months away. Obviously when when Colin, Kaepernick, when other players Neil obviously. People. See that differently you know when they kneel during the anthem. Some people see the message that these players are trying to deliver other people only see. Disrespect for the flag. And so I guess the question is do we have any idea? Is it or is it far too early to know like you talked about ownership? Is there another way that these players are talking about or do? We have any idea? What this voice might look like in September. He and that's. Good I don't know there's a definitive answer there yet i. mean we did I think it was Stephen yesterday or over the weekend? I think it's my day. I don't even know what day or time it is right now. Eight Adrian. Peterson said that he was going to kneel You know. He's a veteran kind of respected player that he would kneel, and there's growing expectation that there will be a larger form of protests. Would that be something that just happens in week one. Is that something that would happen during the preseason? I'm not sure about of that I. Do know from talking to players over the last ten days, or so that there are a number of guys who are sensitive to the fact that the the kneeling and the anthem specifically is very. It's very easy to have that message distorted like you mentioned, and it very quickly takes away from what they're trying to talk about. But at the same time it is the ultimate form of peaceful silent protests, and you know over the last. Ten Days! How many times have we heard? From. Politicians, and pendants and everything saying well, if only they could protest peacefully. Isn't there a peaceful way to do this and look happen? Again was kind of the ultimate peaceful form of protest. It was uncomfortable for sure, and it made a lot of people uncomfortable. But. That is the point of of a protest. I know there are a lot of athletes who feel like they keep getting told well. Yes, you can protest, but not like that, and then you actually actually take to the streets while it will not like that, and then you. Know not like that or you wear a tee shirt. No, not like that so. I think there's going to be a lot of discussion and allow debate about what form that'll take you know. I wouldn't be surprised if we see players wearing t shirts that say I can't breathe or black lives matter and considering what Roger Goodell, said on Friday. You'd think he would have. They would have to be supported in that and whether that's that's pre-game type of stuff players are. Very strictly a regimented on what they can wear during games on what sort of like markings and how tucked in their uniforms have to be in how high their socks have to all that kind of stuff but yeah I mean I think you know I think they just want to make sure that the message of their protest is heard and. I do think that the conversation around it in the reason why? Is Much more understood now than it was a few months ago and certainly a few years ago well as you said I think that that any sort of change. Comes with conversation, and it comes probably with conversation. That's uncomfortable for for all of us and. You know what I've learned from your reporting, and and I think from from other things that that I've seen is. We've seen athletes in the past to have been a little bit hesitant to. To speak out to have their voices heard and I think that the overall message at least from you know from the NFL side is I think we've reached a point where players and athletes understand the platform that they have and that it's important to use it for more than lining their own pockets with money and I think that's a really good. At this point in time. Yeah one hundred percent, and it's really interesting to see You know a lot of these guys have spoken up recently. Especially, the guys who were in that video in the players video they were. Some of them were not even in the League at wouldn't com Cabernet started taking a knee for the first time in Patrick Mahomes in Colin Kaepernick have never actually been active NFL players at the same time same Shawn Watson from the twenty seventeen draft class so we're kind of seeing a new generation of players. saquon Barkley was not in the League at the same time as conquer nick. Nick at you came in after even after the two thousand seventeen season, which was such a pivotal moment, so we're seeing a new generation of players who have been on social media, almost their entire lives, I mean these are guys who probably got their first twitter and instagram and snapchat and everything when they were in middle school, and they're comfortable living their lives online and sharing themselves Sharing themselves directly with football fans and I think that's a good thing. You know as a reporter. Obviously you know I want to be able to tell the stories and talk to them directly, but we are in a position now where we can hear from them Instantaneously and I think that's better. That's that's. We're all better because of it. I think you're right. Lindsay and I think that's probably a good place for us to to call it a day here. Appreciate your your spending some time with US folks, please. You know if you don't have a subscription to the athletic. Get One so that you can You can follow the reporting that they're doing as. Athletes have their voices heard throughout the country, and and on these important issues Lindsey. Go ahead. Let people know you know where they can find your work on social media and all of that share. Yeah, you can follow me on twitter. It's by Lindsey. H Jones Lindsay with an a a Y.. Lindsey h Joe Biden's each downs. Excuse me on twitter, and then yeah, you can follow all of our coverage of the NFL and college sports on any of the sports that might be coming back at the athletic and. You know maybe connect following me. Can you know talk about Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley and company talk about talk about football real football. Football. What we will get back to that conversation eventually, but it is important that we use whatever platform we have to discuss. These things so appreciate your coming on. Shore I. Appreciate You inviting me on. Thank you so much. Have a good one thanks Lindsey or a giant spoons. That's our show for today. Thank you as always for listening. Please remember to subscribe to big blue. Radio on all of your favorite podcast applications check out our work on instagram at big underscore, Blu underscore view checkout work on facebook follow big blue at big blue view on twitter, and of course joined the website at Biglou Dot Com to participate in the discussion with other New York. Giants fans all right giants fans. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you soon. Bye, bye! Hi I'm Brian and I'm one of the hosts of the Amazing Avenue Network of podcasts each week day. We bring you a different podcast that covers the New York mets from a different perspective, every Monday. You could hear me Steve along with Kenan Lucas on from complex cleans will discuss the mets minor league system every Tuesday on fermentable. Join me rubble. Looked back on the career of a less heralded Mitt. Hi I'm Alison and along with Maggie and Linda Pot of their own each week. 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Tuskegee Syphilis Study - First, Do No Harm | 1

American Scandal

43:39 min | 1 year ago

Tuskegee Syphilis Study - First, Do No Harm | 1

"July nineteen seventy two San Francisco, California. It's a pleasant summary evening at a pleasant dinner party and pleasant apartment filled with chitchat and shop, talk and international affairs reporter with the Associated Press named Edith letter breaks away from her conversation to refill her wine glass letter scans living room. Everyone appears to be having fun. Everyone except the low man by the window staring out of the city lights after a minute. She recognizes him an acquaintance, Peter Buxton. She walks over Peter nice view, right? Yeah. I guess there's a long awkward pause Edith. Do you know how I came to this country? I thought you grew up in Oregon. I did. I was born in Czechoslovakia and thirty seven my father was Jewish. So we ran bring this up because I think you should know that something very similar to Nazi sciences being practice here in America today. Muderer swallows hard. No more casual sits from her wine glass. She's all ears. What, what are you talking about? Mr. random morning. I was in the coffee room. This was back when I tracked the Neal disease for the US public health service. Couple of colleagues were chatting, one mentioned a patient in Alabama. This man had terrible sentence. He said he was plainly insane. Family was scared. So they took him to a doctor. They knew and after a brief examination, the diagnosis was made syphilis tertiary stage, the doctor gave him a shot of penicillin sent him home. But when the higher ups at the PHS found out about the treatment they were angry angry why. Because the doctor treated a man who was not supposed to be treated not suppose now. Wait. I don't understand the CDC a surgeon general, the state of health. They're all in on it. Peter in on what the experiments for forty years, PHS has been experimenting on black men and making county. Alabama in the beginning there over six hundred tests. Now, there's less than one hundred rest are dead, or on accounted for none of them. No, they have syphilis. Doctors running the study, they didn't tell them. They just let them die. They want to see what happens when syphilis goes untreated in a man's body right up until the moment kills him. They even pay for burial costs. Peter. That can't be true. No one, no one would do that. He doesn't possible. I can prove it have all the charts all reports. They're not even trying to hide it. They don't think they're doing anything wrong. The test subjects are all black people all every last one. The study will continue until every last one dies. Musonda does something, and I've tried I've tried, but need your help? This has to be exposed letters head spinning. She finds the nearest coffee table. Such class down. Peter everything you have on this tonight right now. Lederer in Buxton depart that night for Buxton's home once their letter release through interoffice letters round up reports x Ray descriptions, autopsy photos, her eyes, widen at phrases like we are keeping the known positive patients from getting treatment and arranged for autopsy those who die in the future. She takes everything she can carry and starts making copies. The experiment is called the Tuskegee study of untreated syphilis in the negro male. It's the longest running non therapeutic experiment on human beings in the history of medicine, relatively few people in the medical community are aware of it, even fewer have questioned until now most people have had no idea, it's happening, especially not the test subject, but the doctor slowly killing them are thrilled with their results. American scandal is brought to you by chase. So you're thinking about buying a new home at chase? They know you whether it's vacation home condo in the city or new place. Closer to the grand kids. You're not slowing down anytime soon. So you need a lender who can keep up chase will save you money over time by showing you how you can pay off your mortgage faster. That's money, you can spend on a new sports car or on a second home in Scottsdale or taking up goat yoga chase customer. Save more. Learn more at chase dot com slash A S chase, make more of what yours all home lending products are subject to credit in property approval rates program. Terms and conditions are subject to change without notice, not all products, are available in all states or for all amounts. Other restrictions and limitations apply. Owning products offered by AP Morgan. Chase Bank NA an equal housing lender. From wondering, I'm Lindsey Graham. And this is America scandal. Informed consent. Truthful disclosure of diagnosis and test results. These are things we come to expect from our doctors and today in the United States, it's illegal to conduct a medical study involving human participants and less. These conditions are met the rules were signed into law in nineteen seventy four in response to the Tuskegee experiments. Syphilis is a sexually transmitted disease that if left untreated can cause blindness stroke, heart trouble and sanity and death in the early twentieth century, it was a massive public health concern poorly. Understood and until nineteen Forty-five largely incurable beginning in nineteen thirty two more than four hundred black men were recruited to participate in a study on the effects of syphilis and the coming years. Another two hundred men were recruited as controls the issue was, none of the patients knew that they were part of study the infected ones didn't even know. They had syphilis instead. The sick men were told that they had bad blood and would need regular testing and treatment no more specific diagnosis was ever given. And the promise treatment never arrived. Many were allowed to die when they could easily have been cured. The question is why this episode one, first do no harm. It's April nineteen twenty nine when Michael Davis steps briskly into the well appointed office of the United States, public, health service or PHS the white-haired nearly fifty years old Davis still has the drive and focus of young visionary. The start of his career today, he's got a big vision. He's here to see Hugh s coming the ph s surgeon, general not long ago. Davis joined the Rosen, Walt fund a private charitable organization started by Sears co owner Julius Rosenthal for the being of mankind. The son of Jewish immigrants. Rosenthal had poured millions into schools, museums and charities and taking a special interest in helping America's black communities. Davis is the fund's new director of medical services charged with collaborating with PHS to develop black health programs. This is what he plans to discuss with coming settling into a plush office chair Davis, outlines his agenda. Segregation is still very. Very much the long land. But you tells coming a lot has changed in the old days. The philosophy was that since blacks live sinful, lifestyles, they got illnesses, venereal disease and deserved what came next discomfort physical figuring even death. Luckily, he continues such medieval thinking is a thing of the past enlightened doctors now understand that improving black public health will improve health for everyone. So and now Davis is excited. It's time to get more black people into medicine train these workers to treat the citizens of their community gesturing, as he speaks Davis calls for the hiring of black, nurses, physicians and sanitary. Inspectors? He tells coming, he wants money invested in the construction of black medical facilities. The establishment of scholarships that will promote black public health training. He concludes by saying they'll focus on rural blacks in the south and partnering with the to ski institute, Annella Bama. A black university co founded by Booker T Washington. With his pitch concluded Davis sits back satisfied after minute coming nods says he likes what he's heard. He tells Davis get started right away. thousand miles away in bolivar county Mississippi, Dr Oliver Clarence winger smiles to himself as another long day at his health clinic, draws to a close. It's early September nineteen twenty nine and even though it's a Saturday. There's no place he'd rather be. He helps one of the doctor sort of many vials of blood samples collected this afternoon, even more than the day before, and that's good. Looks like you'll be able to complete testing ahead of schedule when you're came to Mississippi following his success as director of the PHS venereal disease clinic in hot springs, Arkansas his clinics cater to local black communities and wingers, proud of that as a white doctor in the south. He sees himself as something of a shepherd. His patients are like children. He explains to friends all need a little guidance, and it's he's happy to give he spends his days. Improving their health drawing their blood for analysis and administering. Injections knowing wants to help them feel better, it satisfying. Plus, these people really are a hoot loading, the blood into a truck Wang, or chuckles to himself recalling what just happened to Dr Vard to negroes approach provide and said they felt week after having their blood drawn the previous day. Specifically they felt that their sexual powers had been impaired. Dr provide nodded stroked his chin, then propose a solution with the negroes, like their blood back. There is lit up. Yes. They would provide excuse himself, then returned with a one ounce bag of red colored, placebo. He solemnly advised Negros to take the mixture and teaspoonful doses, they promised they would and party with no further complaint. Amazing harmless jokes, aside, though, for years, Wenger's believed that medicine is letting black people down, and he wants to do his part to end the neglect. So he was thrilled when the US public health service sent him here to Mississippi his mission is to oversee syphilis testing for two thousand black locals working for the delta and pine land company, so far he's found that nearly a quarter of the company's black employees carried the disease that revelation has led to what Wang or considers another leap forward, a syphilis treatment program funded by the PHS if it works, you could be replicated in other towns across the country Wang has been running this program to, but he's only a month in and it's hard work the days are brutally hut and the medical facilities are hastily constructed and barely adequate. The infected men can't be cured right now there is no, you're wingers confident, there's one right around the corner. But for now that research processes to expensive and time consuming, so Wayne. During his partner do the best they can with drugs that render the men non infectious. They can at least keep other people from getting disease and Justice, they'd hoped. The program is a success. The PHS does decide to expand so Dr winger heavily heads to Alabama launching another large scale anti-surface effort for the benefit of rural blacks, and they need his help even after years of this work. When you're can't believe how poor they really are lack. Sharecroppers ragged still coated in dirt from the fields roomie is missing teeth, but still smiling way how could anyone live like this? It's a mild winter afternoon in February nineteen thirty the rough and dirty manner lined up at the possum hollow school in making county Alabama. And by the looks of them, they're lucky to have someone like Wang, or to save them from themselves. They even have one of their own a black doctor named CLYDE frost. From the Rosen wolf fund, tending to the men in line. Dr frost, hands of file of recently collected blood to a nurse. Sees winger, watching him, a non when you're walks over his frost sends a patient on his way. Take care of herself. And don't forget, you know, anyone who has been seen by us, yet, be sure to tell them to come by looks like the testing is going smoothly, Dr frost. I'm impressed. Many of these men have never seen a doctor. They're happy to see any medical attention grateful to receive treatment for the first time in their lives. And you're keeping them in the dark. Right. We're here to prove to this country's doctors that the disease can be controlled among rural blacks, what we're sure as hell not here to give these people in education and venereal disease in the facts of life. Yes, sir. It's important, we don't confuse these people with words, they don't know, don't need to know words like syphilis. No one here has said that word myself included. We're sticking to the approved terminology. We just tell them that they have bad blood need medicine, which we provide. Excellent trying to keep us all running smoothly as possible. The fewer needless conversations better frost, can I ask you something, of course, Dr winger? These negroes are extremely trusting almost anything. We ask no whining questions now this seems to be a common trait, amongst negroes. Can you explain it frost takes his time winger can see that he seems to be struggling to find the words? Well, I think that the people here are, are naturally kind and they seem very trusting whites considering how whites treat them down here. That's the prising. Well, Dr Wehner, they've learned to obey authority figures fascinating. Well, I'll let you get back to Dr frost. Keep up the good work. When you're walks away, thinking about that, last exchange, the people here believe in doing what white people tell them to do that has very few questions. He's here to test syphilis and in more ways than one he's found the ideal test subjects looks towards the door as more and more. Black men, enter their this open to suggestion, perhaps, there, other purposes, they might serve, perhaps, they can be driven to make great sacrifices in the name science without even knowing it. American scandal is sponsored by mail chimp. So you wanna grow your business. Now, what growth means new customers and new customers means new marketing male chimps, new, all in one marketing platform is the best way to manage more of your marketing activities from one place, so you can market smarter and grow faster. You don't need separate Email automation, CRM, scheduling, listening, tools, male, chimps all in one marketing platform, gives you everything you need to create publish manage, and measure, multichannel campaigns, and then collect organize understand, and act on all your audience, data, you'll know who to talk to what to say when to say it, and the best channel to deliver the message, the complete marketing platform has everything you need to start marketing your business today, and they'll be there to help as your business grows and needs new capabilities. So if you wanna grow your business, and you're wondering now what mail chimp that's. What learn more and mail Tim dot com. You're about to hear a trailer for American hysteria upon cast about moral, panics urban legends and conspiracy theories that explores our history through the lens of the false, things we fear, and the outrageous, things, we sometimes believe on this podcast. You can expect forgotten oddities of American history, as well as breakdowns of controversial pop culture, events like Tinky Winky outing, when Elvis join Nixon, and the war on drugs, or house, spirit communication, was once full of intersectional, politics, and crossword, puzzles threaten to topple the social order through exhaustive research, and dark, humor American hysteria tries to explain where are weirdest beliefs began how they grew and how much of our past we can find in the present you can bend all of season one right now and season two starts June. Third check out the trailer. And then subscribe, wherever you're listening, now on American hysteria. We cover moral panics stranger danger and satanic ritual, abuse urban legends like poison. Halloween candy and phantom clowns conspiracy theories, like the gay agenda and the aluminum join me Chelsea ever Smith. A former fantastical thinker for a sometimes heartfelt, sometimes Larry sometimes horrified. Look at how these American freak outs shape, our psychology and culture and make us all into believers one way or another subscribed to American hysteria. Now wherever you get your podcasts. It's March nineteen thirty Dr Wagner's testing and making county has come to an end Nana chilly day in the nation's capital. The newly hire PHS advisor to the Rosenthal fund pores over wingers results at his desk, he makes urgent notes in the margins. His name is Dr taller Clark and his family roots date back, all the way to colonial Virginia, which is why I was a true southerner. He doesn't find the six for making county. All that shocking thirty six percents of the blacks have syphilis us nearly eight thousand people he double checks. The data see that it must be accurate. He's fascinated by the numbers, energized and intrigued by them, some ideas of his own about how to proceed, which is why he's invited the Rosen walled funds. Michael Davis to his office to discuss. The findings Davis is aware of the data coming out of Obama and worrisome. Clark knows that Davis has taken issue with aspects of Wayne's treatment from him. Not with. Methods or its conclusions. But, but something else Clark consensus, certain sentimentality Damus. It's not a sentimentality shares, and he knows you'll have to set the director straight place come in. Afternoon. Dr clark. Dr davis. Thank you, coming to see me. Please we said, thank you. If I may Dr Clark get right into it. Yes. The findings concern me concern me too. That's, that's a lot of sicne goes down there. That's not exactly what I mean. Obviously, there's an ongoing health crisis and making county but a few, we need to be careful with how reveal this data to the public Clark players on the most patient grin, he can muster here comes please. Go on, sir. The impression would be given that syphilis in the south is a negro problem rather than one of both races. I fear this really unfortunate emphasis on the negro specifically could rouse resentment among regroups in both northern and southern communities thirty six percent of negroes in one impoverished county in Alabama. Not reflective the country's negro population as a whole. I have no doubt, the is accurate, but we both know that syphilis isn't just a black disease. The Rosen wall fund wants no part of lending credence to that, stereotype. Sure. Certainly, certainly and don't think I haven't thought of this now I know how concern you in the fun. Dr with nego progress in. It's very forward thinking forward thinking, but. Let me tell you Dr northern Negros. The vast majority of them will not give this mattress I can and as far as the southern black concern. Well, they all love the program. I appreciate that Dr Clark, but still man you're bound ask. Why negroes only why not test southern whites as well. We know they have the disease to if we don't test them, we could be accused of bias biased. I sure you buy has got nothing to do with it. I personally would have loved Weiss being -cluded in the testing tree. But I'll tell you, Dr Davis, I know thing or two about southern whites take it for me. They would not be easy to deal with. Whereas Dr Wang assures me, the negroes down south are most quantitive. Do you take my meaning it's a matter of Quat peration and not of discrimination, that the work is limited in Negros. We'll just learn more this way. And that's the truth. Dr corn that is the truth fact. I've lied. Should give serious consideration to expanding the program. We've got a good thing going. Why slow down? All right. Then I won't keep you Dr Clark Clark smiles, stands, and shakes Davis's hand. Thank you. Dr so appreciate you coming in. Once Davis has gone Clark turns back to the data starts foreing plans for the next stage of the program. He wanted to expand and figures everything will be fine, as long as Davis and his Rosenwasser fund, don't get in the way. The following year Clarkson, his office when he learned that the rose fund has gotten in the way for months, he lobbied, the fun to expand the negro syphilis treatment program. But today he's received a letter from Dr Davis the fund has balked too expensive. Specially during the depression, Kark slams, his fist on the desk and paces takes every ounce of restraint he has not to rip Davis's letter to pieces. He reads, it over and over again, and it's more irritating each time in his mind, here's the words in snivelling voice, the fund has regarded it as a privilege to be able to assist during this preliminary period of study an attack upon this great problem in southern rural areas. That's hogwash, Clark things, the fun could find the money if they really wanted to, but would rather back efforts to educate the negro. They're not really concerned with his health. But Clark is he thinks that the P H S should be building health clinics for black people rather than wasting money on schools? Clark has his own pet name for what? These schools might produce, white collar negroes world doesn't need white collar negroes. It needs negroes who aren't contagious bitterly Clark realizes. It's time to write his final report on the making county syphilis treatment efforts, he sets Davis led her side his side. He's never going to look at it again. He closes the office door to shut out the noise of the hallway those sheet of paper into his typewriter sits down against a rapidly punch the keys, but after about an hour writing he abruptly stops. How did he not think of this before it was staring him in the face the whole time, right here in the data Macon county has the highest prevalence of syphilis in the south any of those infected received treatment, but many did not because the Rosen wall, thudding dried up before anyone could tend to them. Clark wonders what would happen if the ph decided to focus on the ones who weren't treated, what if they stayed that way could they be useful to understanding more about the disease Clark? Feeling they could now he's not a monster. Would he prefer to treat the CITIC blacks, of course he would? But if the Rosenbaum fund won't pay for it, that means there's no money to treat those people. So it doesn't matter what he'd prefer, if he can't treat them he can do something almost as good he can learn from them, what Clark's imagining is a sweeping experiment unprecedented in its scope. Doctors know that many black people suffer from syphilis. But do they really know the effects of the disease on blacks, specifically, many of theorized that syphilis affects blacks differently than it does whites, but no one's ever actually proved it Clark feels that someone really should conduct that study? Not someone should be him. That's where he'll make his Mark on medical science. Throughout nineteen thirty two Clark makes plans. This is to be a serious study, a disciplined, an absolute commitment to the scientific method will be required. The subject is untreated syphilis in Negros Clark, is pleased to discover that the work is not without precedent just three years earlier in Oslo, Norway, Dr Bruce guard observed hundreds of local test subjects with primary and secondary. Syphilis examination only no treatment, Bruce guard wanted to study the nature of syphilis induced, cardiovascular and neurologic damage has Clark reviews. The details in German scientific journal he nods and satisfaction smile on his face. Obviously, the study was whites, only it was conducted in Oslo Norway, for God's sake. Does it serves the ideal template for Clark's? Counterpoint a colored only rendition Clark wants to do the Oslo scientists one better. They base their conclusions off case histories the didn't conduct ongoing examinations. So Clark will collect his data in real time with his pitcher, Semel cork starts lobbying colleagues at the. HS. He invites them to meet him in his office at his home, in the local restaurants, most popular during lunch hour, he shares his ideas and encouraged by the response all agree that the studies worth will, yes, there are risks to the infected with those risks pale in comparison to the potential, medical insights, one colleague who is fully on board with Clark's plans. Dr Oliver see winger. He happily agrees to collaborate with clock once again with Wang, or support secured Clark knows it's time to get on a train for Alabama upon their arrival. He tells winger he must see the state health officer, Dr J and Baker immediately. It's a pleasant September day. Montgomery went Baker opens, his office door to admit Clark, Rominger Baker, sits down, then gestures for the men to proceed. He's aware that they have ambitious plans to study the negroes in his state when he needs to be certain. These men know what they're talking about the H doctors described their intentions Baker takes it in nods has for clarification, the seemed like intelligent men Clark promises to iron out certain details. Even admits there are still many questions of procedure to be worked out when Clark has done with his pitch Baker waits. A long while before speaking drumming his fingers on the desk, he realizes he's thought of a couple of things they haven't when he finally speaks he agrees but with some conditions. Yes. Clark into his study, but observing blacks without offering any treatment whatsoever isn't going to work to be perfectly clear. Baker explains. It's not that he has a problem with the potential impact on the. Subjects. He's more concerned with their white employers. They may not be happy to learn of a program that isn't doing everything can to keep their workers as healthy and productive as possible. Banker says at the very least clarken operation must take steps to render some of the blacks non infectious and this is non-negotiable. He asked Clark if they have a deal and Clark says they do when the study starts minimal treatment will be provided with that Baker nods and shakes their hands. The visiting doctors move as though they're about to leave, but Baker stops them. He has one more condition. He tells them that if they're going to study untreated syphilis, and making county blacks, they better, find some local sponsors. He can't have the PHS running about Alabama and experimenting on the locals without the support of a trusted, medical institution, preferably, one that already employs, a number of black doctors, nurses Clark, nods rapidly agreement Baker can see the man filling in the blanks. There's really only one place in the country that meets those conditions and luckily for Clark and winger it happens to be just fifteen minutes away from the heart of making county. From Gumri clarken winger hit the road on their way to the illustrious to ski institute co founded by Booker T Washington. The institute has stood since eighteen eighty one, one of the most significant bastions of black education in the country. A place where blacks can truly receive a world class education, both medical and industrial arts. They're planning to meet with Dr Eugene h dill to skis medical director and they're nervous. They're about to tell this black doctor that the intend to oversee an experiment on local syphilitic blacks. They will not tell the black test subjects that they have syphilis and will observe the disease as it runs. Its course almost totally unimpeded by medical intervention. The experiment will be presented to test subjects as an extension of the Rosenwasser fund treatment program, but it isn't conversations minefield. They'll have to be cautious nuance. And how they go about securing Dr Dibble support because to ski is the only place there. Perriman can be carried out. Dr Eugene, doodle, make sure he's standing straight, when Clark and Wang, your pull up. He hopes he'll be suitably impressed with John a Andrew Memorial Hospital. And with him the hospital is a beautiful brick building with white trim and four magnificent columns at center Dillsworth hard, these past seven years to ensure that it stands monument to black chievements and prosperity, every aspect of the institute, reinforces that serious and legitimate work is done here. Demel recognizes that he must do all he can to propel ski into the future. It's nearly nineteen thirty three and black people to progress in this country must not nicely. He's anticipating this meeting as much, if not more than the white doctors from the us just now stepping out of their core. Low doctor Clark, Dr winger I'm Eugene Dibble notices Clark shoots Wenger, quick look before taking the lead, whether it is certainly an honor to meet you. Dr Phil, we have much. Discussing preferably in private. Can you show us your office? Of course. Once the three doctors sit down. Dr Clark does most of the talking Dibble is contented to most of the listening, he can tell Clark is leading details out, perhaps intentionally perhaps, not this is all to be expected. However, Dibble reminds himself to maintain focus on one thing, the good of the institute. This is a wonderful facility, you have here. We want help you make the most nothing will do that, like you committing to help your government facilitate scientific progress Wang jumps in bat, that in Washington, they'll never forget your valuable service to your country, and your people, Dr till the word we'll do here with your help. If you let us will truly improve public health on a national scale for generations Dibble remain silent for several moments processing, the information he sees Clark and winger. Look at each other almost nervously he realizes that they need him, just as much as he needs them. Dibble is not used to this kind of power, but he likes it. Of course, he was always going to say, yes, the prestige and association with a PHS will bring to ski is immeasurable, but they don't need to know that Dibble puts on his best thoughtful expression, and breaks the silence. I believe I understand you want the institute to provide you with the interns, nurses, you'd like to use our offices and examination rooms, and you will be providing some measure of treatment to making county blacks with syphilis though, some, the details are still being worked up the program will ask the better part of the year, and he'd made sign off on all of this, or the program will not be able to go forward. Yes. That is correct. Well, you have my support. I think the study will be wonderful for the ski institute, our young nurses struggle to secure meaningful employment after we train them out in the world. Why people will rarely agreed a higher black nurse. So if you're telling me, you'll employed by nurses. And black physicians for your study. And I think that's a good thing. That's, that's the most important thing deal notice Clark, suppressive grin. Oh, I agree. Dr and you won't regret this. Now, if you Dr winger is time to work out the protocol, for our study turn with plans together. Propel this finance itution of yours to a level of respect of prestige. It's never seen. Following a brief tour to skis hospital. Dibble's clarken Wang, or to their car smiling waves. Goodbyes drive off cloud of dust and their weight as it settles. He pictures the years ahead all the success to come great new chapter in the history of the institute is about to begin and Dibble is proud of his role in it. It is at this instant, however that who smile fades, if he's being honest with himself. He's not so sure that Booker T Washington, where he's still alive would be so proud divulge shakes the feeling off returns to his office Booker T Washington, isn't here. This is a different time. American scandal is sponsored by calm yesterday with no warning. The sky, collapsed, Dallas rain hail, and Howard's or wins thrashed the city, cutting our power and flooding the living room. So I didn't sleep too. Well, in humid, hot box with no AC. Wondering how much all the food, I'm going to have a throwaway cost. And hoping I can dry out the rug before Milou sets in, but you don't need a minor disaster to keep you up at night. The stress of everyday life is enough, except sleep deficiency does damage to both your brain and your body. But with calm, you'll discover a whole library of programs designed to help you get the sleep your brain and body needs, like sounds gapes and over one hundred sleep stories, narrated by soothing voices like Jerome Flynn from game of thrones and Stephen Fry. So if you want to seize the day, sleep the night with health of calm right now. American scandal listeners can get twenty five percent off a calm premium. Mm subscription at calm dot com slash a s that C A L M dot com slash A. S forty million people have downloaded com. Find out why calm dot com slash A s. It's timber nineteen thirty two. Dr taller Clark is in Baltimore, Maryland. John Hopkins University. He senators speak with Dr Joseph Earl more Dr Albert KAI del venereal disease clinic. He's feeling somewhat desperate for their expertise. Clark knows he wants to study untreated syphilis in Alabama blacks, he's got all the official by and he needs. But when it comes down to the finer points of actual scientific protocol, he still has a lot to sort out, which syphilis blacks will be observed he obviously can include all of making counties infected thirty six percent. How many tests subjects does he need in which one should they be? He's hoping more and kinda will contribute suggestions to flesh out the ticky study so we can begin in earnest as the doctors walked across the schools expansive campus on a Chris fall after noon Clark. It's all the suggestions. He could hope for and more of the two Johns Hopkins. Doctors Moore's the more talkative, he warns Clark pitfalls to avoid, I the study can't be. About black people at doesn't mean examine people by the racist. He says it means examined black men, only Clark writes down a wants to know wine more replies that since female genitals are primarily inside the body. It's much harder to get reliable information as to the date of the syphilis infection for woman early syphilis symptoms can easily be mistaken for something else that make sense to Clark. He asked if there's anything else and more says there is ideally, no men under thirty the younger, the test subject, the more difficult, it will be to observe the late stage manifestations of the illness, next more suggests that the men be brought in batches to the ski clinic and asked to provide a full and accurate, medical history only men who can identify exactly when they're infection took place should be allowed to participate in the study as this will make Clark's job much easier. Additionally Clarke should seek total two hundred to three hundred patients given making counties, infection rates it shouldn't be hard to find. Enough men who meet these criteria. Finally more reminds Clark is something very important. Something Clark already feels. He knows but to him, it's worth remembering more tells him not to forget that syphilis in the negro is in many respects almost different disease from syphilis in the white by Clark Moore's eager to see how the data derived from the blacks and making compare with data obtained from the whites and Oslin Clark and more believe that whites blacks are simply fundamentally biologically different like many American doctors. They cling to the theory that syphilis is likely to damage the neural systems, more and whites. The cardiovascular system more and blacks far copes that his study with it's real time examination of subjects will prove this once and for all. For the past eight months, Eunice rivers has been the supervisor of nightnurses in Andhra hospital at the ski institute as usual, she's feeling beat. It will probably take another eight months before she's used to working all night, not able to head home until sunrise. But you'll get used to it for as long as she can remember, she strive to make her father, proud Albert rivers was a man, so alliterate he could barely write his own name. Eunice can never forget, how determined he was for his eldest daughter, not to be like him. He pushed her to pursue a rigorous education, sent her to a different town, where his sister live near decent school where children could really. Learn something Eunice came to appreciate the fact that her father would always quiz, her on what she'd learned the second, she returned home after a full day of class when she was college age. He enrolled, her at the Skegness toot with what little money had. She took handicrafts, but her father put a stop to that he told her she had potential and could be. Great nurse Eunice proved father. Right. She excelled which is why Dr Dibble promoted her tonight manager. But when doctor Dibble requested a meeting with her today. She got nervous. She's tired all the time. Now. She walks down the long stretch of hallway that ends at Dibble's office and wonders. I make mistake they mix up the x Ray charts something else. She knows she should have double checked, now she's probably about to get fired and right in the middle of what people are calling a great depression. Man. You want to see me, Dr till, yes, nurse rigors, please sit down. Dr Dibble seems happy, so nurse rivers relaxes. Maybe she was wrong. She relaxes more stable begins to talk. He says he's always been admirers hers respects her work ethic, her medical background, her way, with patients, he mentions a doctor Clark, with the public health service, then he comes to the point. So all that said, I have good news nurseries. The P is going to study and his picked to ski to facilitate. That's so exciting doctor, I'm happy to hear that. And I want you to help with the study rivers taken aback for how can I help while the study's going to examine men in our local community? Black men, specifically studies examine the effects of untreated syphilis in the negro male, you've solid background in public health project. So I'd like you to be the special scientific assistant for the study doing well. Yes, of course. But, but what? Well, I don't think I know civil Allah g in enough detail to be useful. It's really not enough to be anyone special scientific assistant. You can do whatever they want done. I don't have to worry about that river smiles, if the medical director believes in her, she completed herself, she allows herself laugh. Well, now what's Finers rivers? Well aft to be honest with you. Dr I would have done almost anything to be off nights has I can assure you this is much better than night duty. I can't wait for you to meet Dr Clark. He's a good man. I think we can trust him. At that moment in nineteen thirty two Dr tala for Clark is in his office, quite pleased. With the latest developments his diligent work has helped him secure the backing of the Alabama state or have health, the Macon county board of health and the to ski institute with all its black personnel, and disposal, the to ski study of untreated syphilis in the negro male will last around six to eight months, and beginning October, which is just a few short weeks away Clark source through his mail, and his Glancy a letter from his colleague, Dr winger he opens the letter up and beams as he reads in, when you're expresses his eagerness to begin an eagerness Clark shares winger. Ends his letter with I'm confident the results of this study. If anywhere near our expectation will attract worldwide attention you will either cover us with mud or glory, when completed. Couldn't agree more. Next on American scandal, the to ski study of untreated syphilis in the negro male officially begins and quickly becomes something darker far from Borys after the selection of the test subject. Dr Clark reveals what he's truly after but the black medical professionals to ski find their into deep to turn back from wondering this American scandal. I hope you enjoyed this episode if you did. Subscribe now on apple podcasts Spotify, Google podcast wondering dot com or wherever you're listening to this right now. If you're listening on a smartphone swipe over the cover on gas fund the episode notes, including some details may miss, you also find some offers from our sponsors, supporting them you help us offer this show to you for free. And if you do like the show, we'd love you to give us a five star rating and leave a review I always love to know your thoughts and reviews are the best way for others to find the show. Tell your friends and family showed them, how to subscribe, you. Can also find us and me on Twitter. Search for hashtag American scandal or follow me at Lindsey Graham, we use many sources when researching are stories but we highly recommend the books bad blood, the to ski syphilis experiment by James, h Jones and the to ski syphilis study, my Fred Degray, just a quick note about our reenactments. We can't always know exactly what was said. But everything in our show is based on historical research. American scandal is hosted edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for airship. Sounds I by Derek Barents. This episode is written by Hannibal DS, editing by Casey minor, an EMMY Cortlandt executive producers are Stephanie jen's Jenny lower Beckmann and her non Lopez for wondering.

Syphilis Dr taller Clark Clark Moore PHS Alabama syphilis Michael Davis clarken Wang Dr winger United States doctor Dibble Oslin Clark America Peter Buxton Julius Rosenthal Booker T Washington Rosen Lindsey Graham Dr Wagner
BONUS: Too Much To Say with Kalie Shorr: Random Tweets of Kindess

The Bobby Bones Show

31:37 min | Last month

BONUS: Too Much To Say with Kalie Shorr: Random Tweets of Kindess

"Hey guys and this is too much to say do you. This past week has been so busy. And i'm really have just forgotten how to be busy. Which is interesting because you know. I just took like seven eight months to just sit around my house. And now i'm gearing up for a new album release and releasing a single this friday that i'm really really excited about but i was like so tired and i used to have days like that twenty four seven and that was just my work week and now i'm like have to get out of bed before at ten. Am and i'm like. Oh my god. My life is so hard. So i'm hoping you guys can really feeling like what it's like coming back to work and whatnot I also do this really cool. Livestream for c. Which is a festival. I've always wanted to play over in the uk. Unfortunately i had to play it from the states. But it's okay. It's all right. I was supposed to go on my first ever. Uk tour and actually my first time ever out of north america back in april with song. Suffer jets it was going to be so fun. We'd already like sold out our first night. And i was just ecstatic. I was going to go with my best friend candy carpenter and we had this trip planned to paris after it was like unreal dream. Life kind of stuff did not happen. But i think it will. They're working on reschedules. It's just hard because we don't know when we can reschedule for. I've already had. My reschedule. shows get rescheduled which obviously is not supposed to open for reo. Speedwagon until lead this past weekend. Which would have been really really fun. And a little random. But i i love. Reo speedwagon also my roommates per day. And i worked really really hard making her this cake. And it's just aggressively meticulous. And i take things like that very very seriously. And i've decorated several cakes over the past few years for people. I don't know when i got into it. I'm sure i just went down a pinterest rabbit hole and couldn't come back out but for my twenty fifth birthday party. Last year i had sex in the city themed party and it was really fun. Like basically pre made a giant carafe to call it a giant vessel that holds liquid of cosmos and how these little plastic martini glasses and it was just ridiculous. I dressed up like rajai. Everybody dressed up as their favorite characters. And i made this cake and it was like hot. Pink and black because those are like the signature colors of sex in the city. And i cut out the new york skyline in fondant and like stuck at around the side of the cake and it was so. But i am the kind of person who wants to make their birthday cake. Birthdays or weird for me. Like i want it to be very particular and i have a lot of fun doing that for myself. So when people try to step in and they're like oh. God i can take care of this. I'm like yes but like this is my present to myself is getting to be really intense about this stuff. Like i'm a big fan of the gift bag. So i always like if people gifts on my birthday i don't know i'm sure the love languages test would have something to say about that but it was a really good birthday. This year was pretty fun as well. I had a party in my backyard and My boyfriend made these masks. That said keighley's covert conscious birthday party and it was so cute and he put my astrological sign on it. And i was like okay. Maybe sometimes we can. We can let other people do small things for my birthday but actually plan most of it so that was very very fun. So i'm trying to find a groove with segments for the show like i wanna do some things where we come back to them every week and there's like you know this thing from this week and whatnot and i'm trying to find my groove so we're basically throw a bunch of spaghetti at the wall this episode and see what sticks. Let me know which ones you guys like. Let me know which ones you guys hate But this segment is going to be the funniest tweet of the week. I literally cracked up. When i read this okay. This one comes from amanda mccarthy and she's actually a country songwriter. she's from new england as well and i've actually known her for a while but she said whenever life sucks. I need to remember that. It could always be worse. I could be kaley shores x. Not only having half an album released about me but then released and then if that wasn't enough podcast as the cherry on top poor guy not really sucks to suck so. That was pretty funny. Yeah i mean. I kind of i kind of feel a little bad sometimes. But it's also like if you're going to date a songwriter. You need to know that this is on the table. And i think when he met me i was writing songs about my high school ex-boyfriend like it was definitely not a new personality trait. So if you didn't see this coming when he cheated on me with all my friends That's kind of you know. I don't know but my favorite twitter moment of the week was just the most heartwarming. Wholesome pure thing. I have seen in so long and it just brought me so much joy. This twitter user edmund o'leary at emerald nineteen ten tweeted a very vulnerable tweet. Let me read you. His twitter bio. I proud dad of twin sons strong interest in mental health issues. Trustee of epsom base mental health charity. Love me love my mind. I love aviation an olive. This man's tweets are like him tweeting about good experiences. He had an and hospital ity from like hotels restaurants. And you know it's like the reverse karen like he's just go only goes on twitter to lake complement people and put nice things out into the world. And i'm i think this might be just the sweetest man. And he tweeted something a few days ago and he said i'm not okay feeling rock-bottom please take a few seconds to say. Hello if you see this tweet. Thank you and three hundred thousand people said hello and some of the responses came from famous people. Like there's jake tapper who cnn correspondent and. He sent a picture of the kittens that he bought his mother after her cat of nineteen years passed away and he's on of video of one name blue plane which is so cute and then sophia bush from one tree hill. Said hello edmund. We don't know each other. But i know that so so many people are feeling heavy right now. The toll of this year is immense. Just remember that. It's a relay. We can all share the baton. You're not alone better. Days are coming and you deserve to see them sending love and so if you have. Bush has always been like a really big for mental health. So i thought that was really cool for her to reach out and she was one of the first people i feel like to say something and you know the editor in chief of huffpost posted the forty t mobile like people with millions of followers. And it was all people saying hey edmund. I know what you're going through. It gets better and then people responding to people like that being like wow. I really needed to read that. I hope it's okay. That i read that like it was for me and i mean it just was like so many people who like you know they were sending pictures of babies and and q. Dogs and i posted this red on my twitter account. So i would highly recommend going and checking it out. It'll just like fill your heart with so much warmth One of my personal favorites was sending eleven strength. This is from for a lump twitter handles hilarious and they have a very smelly pumpkin as their user photo but they said my sister who passed away sends me butterflies to let me know. She's still with me. This particular one showed up on my birthday and proceeded decline but my arm onto my face where it stayed for a long time while i cried just so sweet. I'm getting. I'm getting choked up. I'm a softy like my relationship with crying is kind of weird because like when something bad happens to me. And i need to cry. I literally can't but when i'm like looking at pictures of animals or like people being nice to each other. That's when i cry but i just want to send my love to edmund. He just seems like just we hurt and that one vulnerable moment that he had helped so many people and i think it made a lot of people feel less alone and i think that the beautiful thing about that was it was just people coming together and right now. Social media is so full of of anger and hatred. Some of the anger is is warranted. Some of it's just excessive and this had nothing to do with what country he was from or politics or anything and it was just like this. You know reminder that people can care about each other and they can care about strangers and it was just. It really really made my week so this week. I've been reading a book called. Maybe you should talk to someone a therapist therapist and our lives revealed and it's by lori gottlieb. I pronounced that correctly and it is so fascinating so the book is nonfiction. But it's written about her patience which is definitely like you need to tread carefully in the waters like i e. You're not supposed to talk about your patients at all. But she got written permission from several of our patients to share their stories in her novel. And it's so so good so she's going through a break up and some revelations of her own while she's still being a therapist for other people and so she makes the choice to go. See somebody and i think one of the funniest part so far just how she goes into therapy like. It's something you can get an a plus in and she has all these notes and she's like trying to prove to her therapist like well like i really know all my problems so I really just here. Just a precaution. And and she. And i really related to that. Even though i'm not a therapist but when i started therapy m there's like this weird thing that happens to some people myself included. Were you like of your therapists favorite client and be like the one who's like the most put together but like you're still bidding. You need help. And i think a lot of that comes down to using awareness as a crutch for me. I absolutely do that. Where like i say the negative thing about myself i. It hurts a lot less when somebody else doesn't and you know it's like oh yeah. I'm fully aware that i should be passed this break up. And then maybe. I'm holding onto too much resentment but I'm definitely cognizant of that and likes. Just say things like that and it's like okay but you're not doing anything about it so self-awareness really only works if you use it to change your behaviors and she really calls herself out on that in this book which i think is amazing but her therapist is like the exact opposite of her and he's like this older man named wendell and his approach to her is so funny like there's this one scene where he literally walks over and he liked kicks her and it's like well. You seem to like hurting yourself. It's a really really great book and she has a fascinating back story. She's to work on. The tv shows er and friends and then she realized that the film industry was slowly sucking the life out of her and then decide to med school and then after that realized that she had a really big passion for writing. 'cause she'd been writing a lotta articles while she was a med school about medicine. And it's just a fascinating story of somebody transforming. And i'm only about half way through but i'm very very into that book this week. Okay now i'm going to give something a negative review. But i watched this movie on net flicks the other night and it's called the devil all the time it has tom holland and robert pattinson in it and a bunch of really other actors so you would think like it would be good right. Good actors do good movies. No i cannot tell you. How much disliked this movie. And i'm just gonna. I'm gonna go full care on this movie right now because i just hated it so much. It's not branded as a horror movie. But i think that when you show a dismembered person and by dismembered. I mean like everything got dismembered using your imagination or don't on that one. Maybe it's a horror movie. I don't know it was. It started off with these two kids. Who just like had these terrible things happen to them. And that's a rough way to start off movie to begin with. Because i'm already just like my heart is hurting and then it just kept getting worse and kept getting worse and there was like no redeeming moments there only two characters that you didn't hate and they had terrible things happen to them anyway and it was just like all darkness and all evil and just there was nothing good about the movie. I mean i would argue that. Even some horror movies have happy endings. Like this was so weird. And i could not even finish it so yeah take this other. I'm giving a review to a movie that i didn't even finish but what i typically do with movies like that like there. Was that one on netflix. 'cause it was like called the platform or Something like that. It was like the one where like these prisoners all had to fight for food on pop form that grows up all the levels and i was like ooh that looks like an interesting storyline. I don't really want to watch all the lake. Gory stuff that happens. So i'm just going to go to wikipedia. And i'm gonna read the plotline so that's my typical approach door movies where i'm like interested but i don't want to spend an hour and a half of my life watching people get murdered so this movie as soon as i like there was just this one scene with one of the people you rooting for and i was just like no. I'm done i'm done. This is this is not worth anymore. Time so i just like when to bed and like read the rest of it on wikipedia and felt very confident about my decision to not finish the movie but i am going to have to say that may be my least favorite movie i've ever watched. Yeah honestly but this is coming from a girl who watched. Raise your voice. Hilary duff every single night. Before i went to bed the summer before eighth grade. So maybe you know. I'm not a film critic for the new york times but these were my opinions and you guys are here to listen to a i. Send out a tweet a few days ago. Asking some questions. Because as lacunas edmund on this episode. And i got some really really good ones. And i'm very excited about. Let's just dive right in so megs whose handle is at short good time which we love to see it. We love a good pun. We love a good pun about my name. That's very cute She said what book slash songs have changed my outlook on life. I would say two of the biggest books. I've read that really kind of felt like hitting a reset button for my soul. Which sounds dramatic. But i really do mean that. Are the alchemist by paul colo. And that book is so so cool. It's ver- it's written kind of like a parable like i don't know if any of you guys have read. Pilgrim's progress which is christian allegorical novel about the hero's journey and going through these trials and tribulations and the alchemist and it talks kind of about your journey to realising your dreams and what they refer to that as in the book is called your personal legend which is really cool. So it's talking all about this thing that we're given which is a passion which is our job to both find and pursue and there's a lot of people in the novel who give up kind of saddle into something else and they still have happy lives but they never feel that like deep deep deep fulfilment and it specifically talked a lot about how rape before you achieve your purpose and start to really find that deep fulfilment you're going to face challenges because god in the universe is going to be like well. How bad do you want it. Because what makes you different from all these other people. Why do you deserve this this fulfillment and it's just about putting in the work and perseverance and not giving up and it's written really beautifully. It's translated from another language so it's actually pretty easy to read. I mean i would say that. I probably could have read that when i was like twelve or thirteen and understood most of it but that book is amazing and then the other one that probably changed. My outlook was jitterbug perfume by tom. Robbins which is very whimsical book. That talks a lot about immortality and spirituality. But it's like really funny and the author goes off on these really long tangents about ridiculous things in the middle of the books that makes it really fun to read. Because you're you're reading about these heady concepts but who also have these random diatribes about ridiculous things and that book has aligned in my life with a lot of different things. It takes place in paris and seattle new orleans and via and so my family is from ancient bohemia like my dad's a german immigrant. And before that we go all the way. Back to the beginning of ancient bohemia and then i had to really cool experiences with you know soul-searching in finding myself in both seattle new orleans so the book is like just kind of been so relevant to my life and all of this was before even read it so vow. One is one of my favorites as well. it's a little bit longer Took me a minute to get through. But i would highly recommend that. Because that i read it during quarantine and it really Really brought some peace and love and light into my life as for songs that changed my perspective on life. I am a huge demographic and live like you were dying red ragtop. I mean they're also incredible but live like you were dying has such an important message and it just always stuck with me. I think i probably heard that. For the first time. When i was like seven or eight and as i got older understood it more and more but i love that song tim mcgraw cut some of the most incredible. Incredible songs in nashville. And i just adore him. I also really love the song in the rough by an-and alec. It's abou someone not loving you because you're flawed and not treating you the way you deserve to be treated and it's very hopeful song about finding someone who will love you like a diamond in the rough and i just adore that song. It's always the first to after a break-up when you're in the like questioning your words phase. Which is kind of necessary part of the break-up. But i have this playlist that i made for an outlet called the boot and it's called kelly. Shorts platelets august twentieth twenty eighteen. And if you search that on spotify all songs will come up. But they're all the songs. That are the reasons i write music and i'm sure i'm going to think of a million more songs that oh wait. I thought of one more cold day in july by the chicks off of their album. Fly that song. I heard it when i was seven years old and my grandfather just passed away in july. And i know the songs about a break-up but at that time in my life i really interpreted it to be about that. And that's what i think. The beauty of a song is is you. Take it what you need to. Even if it's not what the artist meant when they put on paper. And i just love that sentiment so that was another really lovely song that or the long answer. The rest will be shorter. But you're gonna ask me about books and songs. I'm going to go off on a rant. Okay be are infinity k. e. brook said. What's your craziest meet-and-greet experience. Who boy i mean. Obviously there's like the fun ones where you get like a crazy gift or like somebody's singing or like whatever. Those are fun. But i was playing a show at a casino. I didn't have as much security as i would have preferred and you wouldn't think security is necessary unless you're like taylor swift or somebody but like people get pretty weird and i changed the way i do meet and greets after this because of what happened but this man walks up to me and he is wearing a pinstripe suit and white sneakers which should have been a red flag to begin with because like that is a non non sequitur between your shoe choice and your alpha choice correct okay. You can't judge a book by its cover but like come on. How many of you guys have worn sneakers with a suit unless it was like you know in a in a brand carlisle cool and ryan and so he comes up to me and we're taking the picture and as we're taking the picture i swear to god. This man kisses me right on the mouth rate on the mountain and i was like so in shock and i think that the security guard or whoever is watching didn't really notice either and it really just was awful inside like we'll scrubbed my mouth out with my toothbrush after that but it was so weird after that my management and i set up a creeper cam as we call it which is a gopro that we keep on during the meeting line. So that if somebody does something like that we have a picture of them and we know that like they're not welcome in a meet and greet and a couple of weeks later. I believe this was. When i was touring with sara evans and rate lynn on this emt x. Country tour but after that a couple of weeks later there was two moments in the same meet-and-greet and i do not know what was in the water. Wherever i was but the creeps are out to play that night and one man went to take a picture. We went to take a picture and he put his arm around me and he like totally grabbed my boob and i was just like who and you just don't know what to do in those situations like you. Just freeze up. And that's what happens when it comes to sexual assault groping excetera. It's just like wait. People do that in like in the moment. You just don't believe it happened because it's like so out of left field and just crazy and very rude and then like literally twenty minutes later. This man like put his hand on my but when we're taking a picture and i scooted it up and he was like. Oh i'm sorry i thought that was okay and i'm like what low stranger i thought it would be. Okay if i grabbed her without asking permission like so weird so those are probably my craziest ingred experiences But the guy who kissed me on the frequent mouth probably takes the cake with that. What celebrity have i met. That has left me. The most starstruck was asked by at tiny ballerini and her. Her name is spooky. Sam happy spooky seeing everybody. Oh definitely definitely taylor swift. So i've met her a few times now. But the first time i met her i was sixteen and i was hurt Standing in the music video for her song mine off speak now. She shot at my hometown. When i booked the the the role i was also an extra. I didn't know what artists it was. Four but i had a feeling it was taylor swift and the whole drive up. I listened to fearless on repeat knowing that it was probably her. Even though no one had given me any information to confirm that and like why would dealers shoot a music video in maine. But i was like. I'm going to manifest. I'm gonna and when i got there. I went to this like holding room with a bunch of the other extras shooting like a house in cape elizabeth maine and someone goes. Oh yeah taylor is going to be in a second me taylor swift. And they're like yeah. And i was like oh cool like whatever so i like run to the bathroom and i'm like crying and i'm just like trying to get it all out so that i can only be normal and like oh. I don't know professional considering i was like working and i'm just trying to get it together and i'm like hyperventilating and so i like splash some water on my face and i was like okay. You got this walkout and taylor's right there and she's like oh my god you must be kaley and i was. It is a miracle. Did not pass our in that moment. So that was that one was pretty intense. I also met dolly parton that definitely I got to interview her. And i managed to form complete sentences which i'm very very proud of that. I also met william h as he aka frank from shameless He's played obviously so many different roles. But i got to like cheers him. We were linked drinking wine at this like fancy networking thing and talked to him for a second and that was very cool so okay brandy. H jones said. What are your favorite songs asking for a friend. Okay vibe i love my on. Repeat playlist on spotify okay. I'm like the biggest my chemical romance fan. And i've been manifesting them getting back together for the past like five years. And if you go to my twitter. I have been tweeting about wanting them to get back together for that long and when finally happened beginning of this year i lost my mind and obviously i will not see them on tour this year. But i'd like to think that they'll be able to stick it out and stay together until they can go back on tour. I love halina. But i think i'm not okay. I promise is probably my favorite. I have a pair of jeans that i wrote the lyrics on And that sounds like something. I would have done a middle school but no. It's something i did last year. I also really love swing. Swing by can rejects and cute without the by taking back sunday. Just a big fan. I think reliant k would count Be my escape. That was really cool. Because they're technically a christian man. So i was allowed to listen to them and didn't have to like hide them in another cd case. My family was strict. But look how i turned out. You never know someone said would like to know how you met. Sam and rediscovered trump. That comes from craig able three That's so sweet I met my boyfriend four times before i remembered him which is absolutely on me. We have a bunch of mutual friends. I think the first time we officially met with an a bar. So i don't i don't blame myself for not remembering because i'm sure there were things involved that make you forget things I think one of the moments that really stuck with me. When i actually remember meeting him was i was with candy carpenter and he came up to satis show and you know setting how much he liked our music news. Really nice about it and one of my closest friends will stone. Who wrote lullaby with me on my album. He produces dam. And so i went to see sam show he. We just kept running into each other and he jokes that this is like some pablo vian like reinforcement thing. But every time. I'd buy me a tequila shot. So he started to be like the guy who tequila shots. Whenever i team. I'd be like oh my god damn i'm gonna and all of this was like sub-conscious but maybe i don't know it worked. But i went and saw him play a show and he sang a cover of dear maria. Count me in by all time. Low with pedal steel on it. And i would like you. Won't that one and my roommate texas was like. Hey what are you doing. And i was like. Oh actively trying not to fall in love with san varga. Let's see how this goes. And then the next day. I was like did a terrible job at not falling in love his work so it was. It was love at first imo cover but definitely not love at first sight. Because i don't really remember the first time. But i would say like. We really became friends after we started writing songs together and then it all came out of that at its taylor. Underscore execs does said if you could do a duet with anyone dead or alive. Who would it be. And why would it be taylor swift. Okay that's very fair. I used to play these shows in a hotel Like a hotel bar. And i'd take requests all the time and people will be like okay cooling. I can play any dealers or something in there. Like what do you mean. I'm like i can like like literally play any taylor swift song including several unreleased ones that i somehow acquired the demos for when i was in high school. And i just love taylor swift. And i think probably knowing her entire catalog would be You know a good inkling as i would love to collaborate with her. But i also think somebody i would really really really like to do with is alanis morissette. I think she's just incredible. She's influenced by writing so much without jagged. Little pill open book would not exist. She's brought me so much comfort during the really tough times from breakup to the music industry. Right through you. As one of my go-to songs. When i'm starting to feel really shitty and letting it get to me and one of my biggest goals in addition to playing snl and winning a grammy are doing as the md crossroads of morissette. Okay at ck. Golding said what does it any graham number. You'd at least want to date. Okay so i am not trying to offend anybody. I just know myself and not. Everybody can be compatible with everybody. Okay that's just fair. This is no shade. And it's going to be a one verschoor i- ones are really hard. I would also say fives would be difficult as well because they're so introverted. And it's really important to me that the person i'm with is willing to be surrounded by several dozen random people at all times that's kind of But the funniest thing about that though is that seven's integrate to ones when they're unhealthy. The integrate defies when they are healthy. So maybe the reason. I don't wanna date those numbers. Because i notice things about myself in them So there's a lot to unpack there But that's the point of the grim. Also i've loved seeing what y'all's results have been seeing that you've been able to do some self reflection based on the new crime episode so that's really really cool anyway. This week's episode was very random. Thank you for bearing with me. I just wanted to try a bunch of different things. I think right now in the podcast or at the point where i'm just trying to see what works. What guys like and just be kind of adventurous with it. So if you like this episode let me know if you didn't like this episode also let me know and i'll never do it again So really exciting news. I have a song coming out on friday. It's called my voice and it is the first single off of my release of my album. Open book called open book unabridged. It's the most aggressive song i've ever released. It really calls out a lot of bullshit. And i'm really excited about it. I never thought this would see the light of day. And i am so excited so i can't wait to hear what you guys think that the song let me know anything of episode you can always tweet me at keighley shore k. l. e. s. h. o. r. And thanks for tuning into this. Too much. To say with. Short inquest do you.

twitter candy carpenter rajai amanda mccarthy Trustee of epsom base mental h hello edmund edmund lori gottlieb taylor swift Reo speedwagon uk lacunas edmund keighley sophia bush paul colo jake tapper paris huffpost bohemia tom holland
Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Controlled Genocide | 3

American Scandal

41:03 min | 1 year ago

Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Controlled Genocide | 3

"There's one thing Peter Buxton hopes everyone. Today's meeting understands he's no bleeding, heart liberal, he's been Republican all his life, and that's not gonna change. So if they think this is a matter of some naive starry-eyed idealist from San Francisco sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong while they couldn't be more wrong. Boxing looks down at his watch a ceiling fan words overhead he shakes his head. The tardiness is typical of what he's been dealing with since arrival in Atlanta for the CDC syphilis research conference, the government invited him out paid for flights and accommodations. Then basically ignored him. The only reason anyone even agreed to this meeting is because Buxton's been making so much noise about the ski syphilis study to his bosses at the public health service. They said it was an opportunity for him to make his argument in person, the Buxton thinks it's just to keep them in line. Well, they can stonewall all they want because Buxton's prepared for fight he looks down at the documents. He's brought with him. Reports and charts neatly organized in a plain Manila envelope all the evidence. He needs that the study is a moral outrage. Finally hearing footsteps Buxton, double checks, his ties straight as the men start to file in Buxton rises. Hello, gentlemen. He's met with silence frowns outright, glares no-one shakes his hand. So he sits down again. The officials cluster around the opposite end of the conference table, the end, furthest from Buxton so Buxton, stands walks down to their end of the conference table and takes see. Well gentlemen, thank you for joining me today. I'm Peter Buxton venereal disease investigator out of the PHS, San Francisco bureau, Dr William Brown, head of the venereal disease section of the PHS non silently unfolds. His hands behind his head hangs the American flag. He's going for intimidating but Buxton. Thanks, Dr Brown. Looks nervous to his left. Assistant surgeon general, Dr John Cutler. He looks irritated Cutler roles as is in Buxton's direction. We know perfectly, well, who you are Mr. Buxton. So why don't you just get on with Buxton doesn't miss? Well, Dr Cutler, I'd be happy to get on with. The ski study is morally unjustifiable and must be ended immediately Cutler. Smirks shakes his head dismissively, you know, I read the report he sent to Dr Brown here. That's actually why came today. I decided I need to meet you in person. See for myself if you're some sort of alcoholic or lunatic, or something rambling on about a study, you know, nothing about people never met this is serious work. We're doing here, young man serious work. You're lying to these men to their families. Letting them die from something that's been curable since nineteen forty five. Let me remind you. It's nineteen sixty seven sir, you're talking about harm to the black sharecroppers. Are you serious? They have nowhere to go. But up do you hear yourself? The PHS has spent thirty five years using these men as Guinea, pigs more than six hundred men, Dr Cutler and hundreds of them have already died, Mr. Buxton. Everyone in this study's volunteer a vol. Interior, I suppose you think the Jews Auschwitz revolve, here's to that's completely uncalled for I will not be lectured by some era Ghent on fort here report, you wrote, Dr color, you wrote that the subject would have never agreed to study without the quote suasion of burial expenses. I did not write that. I didn't write that must have been written by one of my colleagues, which one, I'd like to speak with him. Let me tell you a story. Group of poor, totally uneducated, and unsophisticated met their government, observed them. Yes. But for the good of science. And meanwhile government, also fixed every other element these men suffered free of charge for the duration of their lives lives that lasted much longer than they would have without that care who else in America hasn't so good. Okay. Doctor cutler. Now. I'll tell you a story, imagine one morning, you wake up to this headline white doctors in decades long, conspiracy to experiment on black men. The article describes you and your colleague standing by as one by one. These men have come to blindness heart injury than sandy for years to black men, said doctor, what's happening to me, and the white doctors lied. And they're still lying to this day. Are you actually threatening us? You have no idea what you're talking about. I don't see what else we discuss here Buxton gathers his documents. No, I'm not threatening. You not yet. But gentlemen. You better hope the world is not out about. This turn on the team. Watch the news, one of these nights, race riots black power negroes are not sitting for this kind of thing if we allow this experiment to continue, we are everything they say, we are, and we'll deserve everything will get Buxton stands without another word exits the conference room leaving the door wide open behind. American scandal is brought to you by chase. So you're thinking about buying a new home and chase. They know you whether it's vacation home condo in the city or new place. Closer to the grand kids. You're not slowing down anytime soon. So you need a lender who can keep up chase will save you money over time by showing you how you can pay off your mortgage faster. That's money, you can spend on new sports car or on a second home in Scottsdale or taking up goat yoga chase customer. Save more. Learn more at chase dot com slash A S chase. Make more of what's yours. All home lending products, are subject to credit in property approval rates program. Terms and conditions are subject to change without notice, not all products, are available in all states or for all amounts other restrictions, and limitations apply honing product offered by AP Morgan Chase Bank NA an equal housing lender. From wondering, I'm Lindsey Graham. And this is America scandal. The to ski study was nearly four decades old before anyone seriously questioned it, but it was never a secret. The black test subjects didn't know what was going on? But as the years passed more and more people in the white medical community did journals published papers regarding the study doctors disgusted freely during conferences throughout the nineteen thirties forties, and fifties. The doctors knew of the study saw as worthwhile research, that wasn't hurting anyone beginning in the nineteen sixties others in the healthcare field, like Peter Buxton sauce, something else on mitigated racism. Buxton learned of the study in nineteen sixty five as an employee of the PHS he attempted to end the study through the proper channels writing letter after letter to people at the top of his organization, he wouldn't let it go. And this led directly to his confrontation with Cutler nineteen sixty seven but it wasn't until nineteen sixty nine that the CDC which now oversaw. The study finally decided to take bucks in subjection, seriously officials can be panel that February not to end the study, but to discuss, whether it should be this episode three control genocide. Dr David censor removes his glasses and rubs his eyes. The always thought being director of the would be a dream job. Not a nightmare, the holier than thou gadfly, Peter Buxton quit two years ago. But that has not stopped this to ski thing from following sensor around. He opens his eyes and watches the doctors file into the conference room and take their seats, the state health officer of Alabama three medical professors senior officer from a medical foundation. Plus doctor Sidney landscape who used to run the study in question. But now works at Emory University. And of course, Dr Brown from the PHS, but there are no medical ethicists, and no black people. Sensor doesn't eat them here stirring, the pot. He's gathered the best of the best, and he sure they can figure it out on their own once everyone seated censor get started. He doesn't see the point and dragging this out any further. He briefly describes the study, then tells the men there in this room to decide future when it started. There was no talk of. Discrimination, or bigotry and no one had a problem with keeping the test subjects away from treatment. But now, people are asking questions and things were getting political so censor throwing up his hands, where here to decide we let the study go on. Or do we kill before opening things up for discussion sensor as Dr Brown review, the numbers, Dr Brown begins talking shaky voice Cording to his data? The original study group from nineteen thirty two was comprised of four hundred twelve black males infected with syphilis and two hundred four blackmail controls, never got sick, according to recent figures just fifty six if lyrics and thirty two controls now remain three hundred seventy three men in both groups are dead Brown tells the panel that he certain very certain that syphilis was the primary cause of death in only seven of them the youngest survivors, fifty nine years old. The oldest is eighty-five sensor, then announces that the matter is open for discussion, who would like to speak next. Dr j Lawton Smith off the Ma. Professor at the university of Miami argues. The study must continue he's examined, the test subjects for signs of we can vision and blindness and taken photos. He wants to continue doing so twenty years from now when these patients are gone, we can show their pictures, you will never have another study like this. He declares take advantage of it. Censors encouraged by the Nazis. But one man isn't nodding clearly unhappy. Dr Jean stolen chairman of the department of medicine at the university of Tennessee in a low voice sensor says before we continue at one of you shut that door. Sensor, considers the many doctor seated around the conference table of the men here. Stolman is the only one who wasn't aware of the study prior to being asked to assess it. And if he has reservations. Well, disagreements medicine are nothing new stolen can make arguments sensors confident that he can counter them all Dr stolen you look like you have something to say, yes, Dr censor do. Now, I don't want it to bait anyone as to the scientific merit. The study L remind even be a few, but that is nothing to do with the morality. What's happening here, the morality? Yes, Dr sensor, it's time to think of these tests subjects, not as test subjects, but as unique patient suffering from an illness. I mean what happened to the Hippocratic of, you're not suggesting just a moment, please. I'm not finished by the standards of our profession. This is an unethical study. At least as it's presently being carried out not gonna sit here and say kill the study your else. I will say this. Let's examine. Each patient and determined on a case by case basis, if treatment would be beneficial at this point in their lives, but that would completely undermine the goals and intentions of the experiment. And frankly, I take issue with your ethical judgments here. I don't find the study on the tests, subjects are being treated just not for syphilis and I'm thankful for that. Dr censor believe me, as I'm sure these men are, but penicillin exists it didn't in nineteen thirty two. It does. Now nineteen sixty nine though it may be inconvenient for some people in this room. We have a moral obligation to cure these patients, if possible though, respectfully, I disagree understood. I know you disagree, but I'd like to add just one more thing, more and more people will find out about the study in the years to come. I don't wanna be here when they find out the repurpose flea withheld penicillin for men who could have been saved by there's only silence. Sensor scans the room for rebuttal. He's thankful to see it appears doctor Lansky may already have one allows you, please. Go ahead. Well, thank you. Dr sensor with regards to the penicillin question surely, must know that introducing drug this late the progression of the seas carries its own risks. I don't know that these risks are worth and frankly, of course, censor- thanks treatment at this point is dangerous. He's grateful when another doctor says that he assumes the group probably wouldn't even accept treatment if offered. So why even ask sensing momentum fully on aside censor puts it to vote. The results are nearly unanimous study will continue. With that settled censor asks, the panel to tackle second issue. How do we make sure the press? He's this our way. Everyone knows the most bulletproof way to protect themselves would be to get informed consent from every test subject, but censor tells the group that this isn't feasible. So what's the next best thing, he's disappointed when stolen speaks I why isn't it feasible to get consent from the men censor explains it, slowly as he would to someone who's not very bright? The test, subjects are mostly elderly sharecroppers, who didn't make it past grammar school, if they ever attended in the first place to get informed consent from them talkers, would I probably have to explain what consent even was then they need to break down the facts of the experiment. Those facts would certainly lie beyond the comprehension of these men, but some form of consent should be attained. So how do they do it? One of the other doctors present sensor with solution. It's called surrogate, informed. Consent. They'll go to the physicians of Macon county, medical society and get them to sign off on the study on behalf of the test subjects to win on all fronts for everyone involved censor germs, the panel, and thanks the physicians for their participation in the weeks to come censor spearheads efforts to secure the cooperation of the medical society by September nineteen seventy he has it. It's a fischel. The to ski study is in its fifth decade with nothing to stop it. Untreated syphilis will still be observed the subject still won't know about it. And each of them will be brought to autopsy in due time the CDC will learn a lot in the process, censoring, Tippett's future. Looks bright. As the fog rolls outside his -partment in San Francisco, Peter Buxton sits kitchen, table with the afternoons mail, he sorts through and stops when he gets a letter from Dr Brown, at least it says, it's from Dr Brown, Buxton wouldn't be shocked, if his boss sensor, actually wrote a forum Buxton tears open the envelope and reads, he hates moments like this when once complete cynicisms validated Brown confirms that the experiment to ski has been reviewed by group of extremely qualified doctors who've come to the conclusion that it shall continue with no treatment provided to the test subjects. Dr Brown stresses that the decision to forego treatment is a matter of medical judgment. Since the benefits of such therapy must be offset against the risks to the individual. The latter is more or less, what Buxton expected. But it's incredibly frustrating, he knows Dr Brown isn't at heart. A bad person, none of these doctors. Are they just cannot see this from any perspective outside of their own? You wonder what words he could use to help doc Brown? See the true nature of what's going on here. Why it's unacceptable and unethical these black men or not just test subjects. They're human beings. And despite the enticing scientific possibilities. There are just certain things that human beings, do not do to other human beings three as simple as that as he begins to type his reply. Boxing knows his words will fail to convince Brown, if even reach them, but Buxton rights anyway, it feels good he types and types. He chronicles the history of the study decade by decade, and declares that the subjects can no longer exercise choice of ending their days free from syphilis. He catalogs, the moral medical, and legal issues, and concludes with this. What is the ethical thing to do compensate, the survivors, compensate, the families of all the subjects were should the CDC away, the quiet, demise of the survivors, and hope that will end the matter, Buxton believes that medicine is supposed to be. Simple, not easy. But simple, if a person has a problem and you know how to fix it. You fix it that feeling you get when, you know you made. So in better is supposed to be the reason you do what you do rereading his painstaking chronicle of everything. He knows about the ski study he wonders when that changed reply to Brown in hand oxygen walks to the mailbox at the end of his block. He's surrounded by a murky gray gloom, as far as the I can see. Doc brown. Never writes back and for the next two years. Buxton obsesses over the experiment. He attends law school and brings it up at every opportunity talked fella students. He talked professors. Everyone tells him the same thing it's a terrible experiment. But there's little legal recourse, the statute of limitations has likely expired from most of the test subjects involved boxing, could try writing a C L U. Maybe they'll know what to do. What finally and July nineteen seventy-two he bumps into Edith letter of the Associated Press at a dinner party tells her the story. She decides that together, they'll tell the world. American scandal is sponsored by slanted. So you're in a band, you're young hopeful got the right mix of rebel and showman you get a bit of a following than a bigger following. Hey, this is going, well, you're going to need to get organized. You do the stuff Bank account manager DA LLC, then you register for trademark on the band's name. That's when you realize you also need a lawyer to fight the government. This is the story of Simon Tam and his band. 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The day after her conversation with, Pierre Buxton Edith letter rushes to her desk at the Associated Press and rummages through it for a number. There's another journalist who must take it from here. Gene Heller AB research bureau. Jean Yves, hey spout to head out to Miami for the DNC. But I've got a couple of minutes perfect. I won't keep you. I really need your help right listening. I need you to investigate the PHS in the CDC do it myself. But my boss says, I can't you want someone closer to the action since you're in DC thought of you what action, you ready for this forty years of experimentation on black men in Alabama. Excuse me. Yeah. That's right. Most of the subjects have syphilis and have had it since the nineteen twenties. But the doctors never told them never offered penicillin. They're intentionally letting them succumb to the complications of their disease. Simply so they can observe the effects going to do it until every single one of them dies. There's a long pause on the other end of line finally Heller response. That's messed up. Yeah. So you can help me. Yes. Where do I start together charts letters stats everything you'll need? I'm literally just gonna put it in a box and ship it to you and let you take it from there. I think that'll work outta work after Lederer hangs up. She immediately begins packing the documents to send to her friend in DC, gene is the perfect person to blow this wide open. She's the best investigative reporter lenders ever met. And she knows everyone in Washington Jeanne will go to the CDC interview everyone. She can she'll dig and dig won't stop until everything buried is uncovered. And by the end of the month. Hellers work is done when she calls letter to let her know she still sounds prize at how easy the CDC made things for her. Let our new they would though after all as they see it. They took the prudent step of securing informed consent for the test subjects ethically. They're not concerned and legally, they're in the clear, but maybe they're not prepared for what happens next. The story breaks on July twenty fifth nineteen seventy-two in the Washington star. Two days later. John or Heller, long retired is at home with his wife. They're just about to sit down to dinner when the phone rings, the man on the other end of the line apologize for calling this late. But he's with the New York Times, and he has some questions. Heller says he has no problem talking about his time at the PHS, as director of the division of venereal diseases. He sixty seven years old and has absolutely nothing to be shamed of Heller explains the reporter that he was expecting this call even looking forward to it like the other surviving doctors involved in the formative years of the ski study his conscience is clear. In fact, he feels he and his former colleagues have been treated somewhat unfairly current government officials to be doing a bit more to stick up for the study leaders when the reporter asked about the ethics of denying. The test subjects treatment Heller has to suppress snort test subject probably got treatment anyway, from private doctors. They saw on their own time reporter asked if there's a record. Of which test subjects visited private doctors for treatment. Hello, shrugs. No documentation on that was capped by these sure it happened. Next question. The reporter then asks if there's anything Heller would have done differently. If given the chance the answer that it's no Heller thinks about von Miller, Wehner Clark. They don't deserve to have their names dragged with mud in their defense and his own. He replies. There was nothing in the experiment, that was unethical or unsigned typic-, then hangs up phone. Meanwhile, to ski nurse rivers is in her living room, straightening up duster in hand. She's a lot of time to do that. These days ever since they made her retire sixty five on account of rain. She's not bitter, though, just grateful. She got to work for as long as you did people ask, if she's worrying about what the papers are saying about the experiment. She replies that she's not worrying to all people can right within like they weren't there. They don't know her. She truly cared for those men and help to make sure they got to their appointments on time even after she was no longer fishery part of the study, just a few months ago, a neighbor wanted to know why she still did it. Why bother with patients and the ski you program, which didn't even work there anymore. Rivers replied with God's honest truth. They're friends of mine. I'm trying to keep up with them. So the department can keep up with them. I love those people. She thinks about them now as she looks up at her living room wall frame, there is her vehicle hobby award certificate store. Upon her by the US department of health, education and welfare. She never gets tired of reading the words to Eunice rivers for notable service coming twenty five years during which through selfless devotion, and skillful human relations. She is sustained the interest and cooperation of the subjects of venereal disease control program in Macon county. Alabama the certificate hangs between a picture of Dr king plaque inscribed with the Florence Nightingale pledge with a smile. She walked forward to dust it off. The phone won't stop ringing, Dr Melvin k Duval's office. He's tempted to pull the cord right out of the wall. Divall is assistant secretary for health and scientific affairs for the US department of health education welfare is department oversees, the CDC, which oversees the PHS, so he barely had a chance to read yesterday's AP story on the ski study before the damn phone started blowing up physicians politicians the media. It's endless in a statement, Senator proc Meyer, Wisconsin just cleared the study, a moral and ethical nightmare. Divall grimaces. It's a nightmare. All right. There's a knock on the office door and divall. Shouts to come in. It's the secretary here to write down devolves official statement, which will later be delivered to the press. Vol takes moment to collect your thoughts then begins I am shocked by ski stunning. No. He should be more forceful. He starts again. I'm. Shocked and horrified by the ski study. Although the study was begun in nineteen thirty two and although the opportunity to bring treatment to the men has long since passed. I am today, launching a full investigation into the circumstances surrounding. We will make a special effort to determine why the study was permitted to continue pass the time when penicillin became the effective drug of choice against the disease. He asked the secretary to find his spokesman divall wants him to remind the public when the study began forty years ago treatment for syphilis carried fatal risks. That's probably why it was withheld at the time, and he hopes these statements quite everyone down while he figures out what to do. Weeks pass as divall crafts, the official government response to the uproar, obviously, it's important to do the right thing. But it's equally important to do the right thing in the right way. And they're already been bumps he announced he'd conduct an internal review, but the public outcry was immediate government doctors don't get to police themselves anymore. They said fine divall can compromise. So today August twenty fourth. He's on his way to the front of his office, building to address the reporters himself after asking them to quite down. So we can speak. He boldly faces their lights lenses microphones, and shares. The new plan he is here today to announce that a citizen's panel will investigate the ski experiments, it will be run by broadest, Nathaniel Butler, president of Dillard university in New Orleans, divall has charged the panel with answering three major questions. One was the study justified to should the study be continued at this point. Time three our existing policies to protect the rights of patients participating in health research, adequate. And if not, what improvements recommended then the reporters began asking questions and divall dutifully answers each one in turn naturally, the first one concerns Butler, what led Duval to select him to run the panel for the assistant secretary. That's an easy one. I selected Mr. Butler because he's accomplished esteemed. Repeatable naturally. Divall refrains from saying what's for him Butler's, most significant attribute. He's black divall wishes. He could point out the Butler is actually one of five blacks on the nine person panel. And they'll obviously represent the public point of view over the scientific one he can't think of what more they could possibly want and also what he doesn't mention and what luckily no one points out that Duval is still very much maintaining control over one key aspect of the investigation by restricting the panel to his three questions. He's taking the issue of racism off the table. There's no question. For asking why the study was limited to black people in April nineteen Seventy-three, the citizen's panel issues its first report in his office divall wishes. He had a tall bottle of scotch to go with it because it's just as damning as feared so much his argument that the experiment was possibly more permissible by nineteen thirty two standards, the panel says it was ethically unjustified, even then it also adds that penicillin should unquestionably been provided to the men finally the panelists that existing protection for human test subjects are ineffective and inadequate. It's time for congress to create a permanent body charged with regulating, all federally sponsored research on human subjects fall size. It's truly all out in the open. Now. He puts down the report takes off his glasses. Then he surprised to realize that for the first time he's curious about what the surviving test subjects make on this us a feeling. The government is about to find out. A pastor and his wife scamming addicts out of millions there. Degenerate, son, locking them up so we can steal it all and dangerous. Conman in a runaway is cream truck. 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Start your seven day free trial today and then only five ninety nine a month with epochs now affects have we got a story for you? Charlie? You just have bad blood. They told him that in nineteen thirty two when he was just twenty six they told him that in nineteen forty five when he was thirty nine they told him that again, just a few months ago shortly after his sixty six birthday, their faces change over the years, but they're lies did not the government. Doctors have been laughing at him for forty years beating him down in a street fight. He didn't even know he was in Charles Pollard is driving now, his eyes intense focused on the road focused on the future. The future that now is entirely in his hands. Bente late the never he suppose as Pollard accelerates towards his destination. He now has one goal on his mind pay. Pollard pulls up to the law offices of Gracie Langford in Montgomery, Alabama. He likes Fred gray. He's a solid lawyer sharp, but always friendly always ready to help a while back, he helped handle some routine paperwork for Pollard gray. So humble to meet him, you'd never know. He was the most powerful black lawyer in the state of Alabama. He's exactly what Pollard needs. And he'll know what to do when Pollard enders Gray's office. The lawyer immediately rises degree him offers a firm handshake, by the it, how the family is policies. No time to waste no interest in trying to remember all the details. The papers printed instead he tells the story plainly. Yes, gray, if he's read about the men who were involved in the test for bad blood gray. Nonce knows exactly what Pollard is talking about read everything. He can about it then Pollard tells gray what he came here to tell him, I'm one of those men, you says smile drops from grace face is, is narrow as greens. Lowered tell me everything he says, so Paul talks and Cray listens. All had been at a stockyard among Gumri, a woman from the newspaper walked up to amount of the blue and asked him if he'd been in the Tuskegee health program from the thirties confirmed that he had the woman if he knew Eunice rivers, of course, he knows nurse rivers, he watches gray takes it all in taking notes writing faster and faster and faster Pollard walks through it year by year doctor, visit by Dr Bizet over half his life as a lab rat, and their experiment. When the stories done gray looks just as mad as Pollard feels great promises on the spot to throw the full weight of his firm at the case on behalf Apollon, and all the other black men dead and alive, who were tested gray tells him that well-deserved money is about to come to him. And a lot of it that the government has been embarrassed who happily pay to get this disgrace off the front pages gray expects generous offer in the coming months. And if one is not forthcoming, you'll sue them for everything. They've got and he'll win Pollard nods that sound about right. Payback. In February nineteen Seventy-three Fred gray sits and Senator Edward m Kennedy's office on Capitol Hill. It's not the first time in DC on official business not by a long shot. He's only forty three. He's already argued civil rights cases before the US court before that he defended Dr king during the Montgomery bus boycott. And even before that he defended MRs Rosa Parks, when she wouldn't give up her seat, now he finds on behalf of Charlie pollen gray. Turns is the forty year old Senator charges in he seemed to protocal matter-of-fact filled with purpose gray likes them, immediately, graph new, Mr Gray. I am sorry for the wait. No need to apologize and candy. I appreciate your time. Kennedy sits down loses. Time takes a moment to collect his thoughts. Then he gets down to what happened into ski was inexcusable. I understand you're representing the survivors. That's good. Thank you. Senator I helped to secure for the men what this country. Oh, them nothing less nothing more while. I'm here to help. We're both lawyers. We both understand how important it is with cases like this to win notches in the courtroom. But in the court of public opinion, I couldn't agree more good. So that said, I wanna keep you in the man you represent the opportunity to tell their story to the American people, I'm Charing series of Senate subcommittee hearings on health and human experimentation talking about sterilization, shock therapy cetera. Unfortunately to ski fits right in gray nantz, if it's all right. The two ski was a program of control genocide. I'll be at the hearings, and I know I can get at least one or two the men to accompany me, that's terrific. Peer bucks will be there as well. And together all of us will put pressure on Washington to get the survivors, the compensation entitled to. Now, let's get to our. Kennedy rises, great as the same the shake hands gray leaves the office confident he's found a new friend and analysis in late February. He introduces Charles Pollard to Kennedy the next day, the subcommittee hearings begin. Gray fines hearings to be surprisingly emotional, certain days, he wants to weep other as he so angry wants to excuse themselves to walk it off. But there's no running from this, and there shouldn't be it's time the crimes of the ph in the CDC were exposed the got away with it for far too, long Braise, jaw clinches, and frustration as a here's Peter Buxton recall, how he valiantly tried to end the study from the inside. But with stonewall he nods agreement, Dr J cats and Yale says, peer review panels don't provide enough protection for human test subjects. He's moved when Pollard and another survivor lesser Scott recount, how they were systematically, taken advantage of betrayed by men and women. They were told the trust their poverty and lack of education used against them. When Senator Kennedy asph, Lester Scott how the government can make amends, Scott says simply they ought to give us compensation or something like that, where we can. See other doctors and continue our health when it's grace, turn to speak. He doesn't hold back. He tells those in attendance at these men are done forever, dealing with PHS. He says they have no faith trust or confidence that the public health service will properly examine them and give them proper treatment, and had all the PHS will do now is try to cover up their unlawful conduct during the past forty years later, grays encouraged to see the Kennedys range matches his own this powerful white Senator fully understand the gravity of the crimes, committed Kennedy describes study as outrageous intolerable situation which this government never should have been involved in. In April nineteen Seventy-three Charles Pollard is out on his farm amongst the crops. He pulls up weeds tend to the soil. He thinks about the past the friends he's lost. Why are they gone while he still here doesn't make sense to him? So much of this just doesn't make sense. The phone rings and with as much speed as he can muster. He walked back to the house. It's still ringing as he steps inside. He picks up the phone as glad to hear his lawyer Fred Grace's voice on the other end gray. Thanks again for testifying at the Senate hearing. He says, things will change. Now, the CDC's going to track down, all living survivors of the experiment. Even the ones who didn't have syphilis and tell them they've got free health care for the rest of their lives. Pollard can expect a visit from field Representative soon and gray ads. Pollard should go see a doctor any doctor. He chooses someone with no ties to ski or the government. Finally, he's going to get the care he needs. All of this is good gracious. Him. But he and Pollard both. No, it's not enough. This leads to graze one piece of bad news. The government has not offered a cash settlement and doesn't plan to Pollard can only shrug he didn't have his hopes up. So what's next he asks gray? Are we done? No says gray. What happens next is this? We sued the federal government for two billion dumps. Next on American scandal. The study may be over what it's not the end of the story for Fred, dre survivors or the African American community by hope you enjoyed this episode if you did subscribe, now on apple podcasts Spotify Google podcasts wondering dot com or wherever you're listening to this right now. If you're listening on a smartphone tapper, swipe over the cover art of this podcast, who find the episode notes, including some details, you may have missed also find some offers for more sponsors. My supporting them you help us offer this show to you for free. And if you'd like to hear more of American scandal, and other one ratios in addition to receiving extra content early access exclusive perks you can subscribe to wonder plus, go to wondering dot com slash plus that's wondering dot com slash p l u s you can also find us and me on Twitter. Search for the hashtag American scandal or follow me at Lynn. A Graham, we use many sources when researching are stories but we highly recommend the books back Ludd to ski syphilis experiment by James, h Jones and to ski syphilis study, Fred Degray, and just a quick note about reenactments we can't always know what exactly was said, but everything in our show is based on historical research. American scandal is hosted edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for airship sound design by Derek Barents. This episode is written by Hannibal DS, editing by Casey, minor executive producers are Stephanie jen's Jenny lower Backman and non Lopez for wondering.

Peter Buxton PHS Dr William Brown syphilis Charles Pollard penicillin Dr John Cutler CDC Alabama Pierre Buxton Edith CDC Dr David censor Gene Heller Boxing United States Buxton gray reporter San Francisco Lindsey Graham
Is the NFL becoming the NBA?

The Bill Barnwell Show

1:00:41 hr | 1 year ago

Is the NFL becoming the NBA?

"Go barnwell show. I'm Bill Barn while you're here. It's Friday September twenty thousand nineteen talk about the Thursday night game which I'm not gonNA lie. We're not gonNA talk a lot about that game. Because it was bad I talk more about the Jalen Ramsey situation. Get to a couple of game previews later on in the show joining me to do that. Ranch frequent attributed over to the show it is the athletics Jones Lindsay. How are you. I'm good del. How are you good. I am not excited. Talk about Thursday night game so very briefly before we move onto Jalen Ramsey discussion. was there anything to enjoy or take out of that game. I enjoyed Tom Brady's tweet. I would like I would like to live tweet more game. I would like to formerly requests that to make him available for basically any game. He's not playing and because look okay. He's he's just like the rest of us. The Games have been some of these games have been almost unwatchable because of penalties and they are up this year holding penalties especially are dramatically up i. I know you're calling Kevin. See for has very well documented this at ESPN but Y- Tom Brady's exactly right. I mean some of these Games are so difficult to watch because penalties are taking over so I I'm here for Tom. Brady's tweets and I agree with him and then Not GonNa lie I was actually I was speaking to a college class. yesterday evening during the first half of the game and nobody had our phones out and kind of at halftime or about halftime when the class wrapped up within some of the students pulled out their phones and said wait what and Tom Brady is tweeting. The game is really awful and then I certainly wasn't expecting seventeen to nothing there into the fourth quarter for for the job so look I'm all about I'm here for and here for Jalen Ramsey drama which we're going to get into here in a minute and I'm I'm ready for more Gardner Menchu Yeah. Let's make that make that happen. The Gardner Mixture Menchu era is fun which the Lake Bortles Arrow is not very fun even when he was doing well it was more like you know he was being dragged by his defense successful season the Gardner era still going to be about the defense but at least it's entertaining and I think it's so funny because you know the argument when Nick False got signed before the season when he got that big deal from the Jackson. It was really only the Jacksonville sheeting against themselves. The argument in some circles was oh well. They had to pay him so much because he it has to be a leader and so we have to pay him like a leader to give him the sort of credibility. Gardner minhsiu is not making a lot of money. He's a late round pick. He looks like a leader through through two weeks. I mean it looks like he's you know he's he looks like he fits naturally in that role in a way that late round pick typically does not fit in as a rookie yeah. I mean there are some guys who just have it. You know and yeah he's bounced around a little bit in college but I don't think there was any question that he was like the man and pullman last year and you know I think you have to kind of have an outsized personality to succeed while playing for Mike Leach and yeah I mean he just he just kind of have it and we'll see how sustainable sustainable his playing style. Is You know once teams that are maybe a little bit better equipped defensively. than the titans were last night once you know there's a little bit more film out there on him. You know if he comes down to Earth a little bit but yeah this is a fun story and and look it's making the jags interesting and there was literally nothing other than Jalen Ramsey fighting with Doug marrone that was interesting about this jags team until we got Gardner Menchu in his Jock strap and mustache and all of those sorts of things and now I just want to know if the good ed place can edit it and debut like next week so they gotta they gotta work that in because I'm going to be super disappointed if it's still more blake bortles jokes. I hope they haven't being able to replace a really sort of like over the top editing where it's like guys normal volume and then you know it's Gardner Menchu like like the volume is totally totally off relative to the rest of what he's saying I mean yeah like over the next six weeks Gardner Minhsiu and get these next week. It's a tough place to play for young quarterbacks back. Carolina's defense has been inconsistent and start the year the Saints Pass Defense has been inconsistent to start the year bengals just got ripped apart by the niners jets defense. I don't know who's going to be playing for the jets by week. Eight I mean it's not crazy to think that he could put together very reasonable stretch of games and ended up you know possibly competing for the AFC south which is still wide open here. I mean there's no great. AFC South and that's gonNA open up a really interesting question for Jacksonville because this is not a season ending injury for Nick foles. They expect that he's going to be back at some point later in the season and he's keeps playing like this. What do you what do you do well. I mean that's and and man pornog- Poles got a big contract and the chance to start again after everything he's been through and you know this. You know rookie with a mustache shoot wears. There's nothing but a jockstrap comes in in two weeks later takes his job. I mean that would be a hell of a story but Yeah God bless you Gardner and shoe for giving us a reason to watch the Jacksonville Jaguars like I might even I live in Denver. I might actually go to that game next week. There was no way that I was gonna go to Jags Broncos but now now am I go so I'll report back and let you guys know if I go and follow follow him around for a day yeah absolutely I mean I feel like this was. Maybe the perfect storm of of ugly football game where you had jags titans which is sort of like the punch line for Thursday night football which is maybe a little unfair unwarranted has been on Thursday night football a bunch but only one game per year in the rain so it's national game so everyone's watching Ching including Tom Brady as we saw and then Sean Hockey League's crew as Kevin Seaford pointed out. I think it's the most penalty friendly crew in the NFL so you AH as bad as it was and it certainly was not an especially watchable game. I do hope that that's sort of the peak whether it's driven by Tom Brady whether it's driven by just you know the league sort of naturally not pushing hard for holding penalties and it is clearly a point of contention and it's you know even even if they are valid penalties you can call holding pretty frequently and it still feels like you know it's not making the game better by having a ton of third and longs if you saw a lot of last no it just it just baffles me that the the NFL looks after to the most successful seasons they've had in terms of offense and ratings are back up and people are excited headed and there's all these new young quarterbacks that that the NFL looked and said you know what should we do to to to change this. Let's call holding every other plane because come on man like let's just give the people what they want and that's offense and this is just it's been really painful to watch so. I'm curious to see if this becomes like some of the other rule changes and points of emphasis that we've seen in other years where we get a ton of it the first month of the season and then they really kind of rain it back in as the season goes along. I I hope so because yes I know that they it's important to call penalties when they're the blatant penalties but like you said you can find holding every every play and some of these. Games have just I've been become very very difficult to watch and it changing the outcomes of games for things that are fairly ticky tacky at this point and I mean it's one thing if you have you know team sitting there and saying hey we're happy. These calls are being made. You have the best player possibly in the history of the sport saying you know I. I don't think this is good for the sport. You know I it's sort of the Eh when Lebron James tweets about stuff things happen you know like Tom. Brady as not use that that sort of platform really outside of making jokes and doing being the occasional bit on twitter or instagram but you know I can't remember Brady criticizing the league this way yes certainly not and not the official like this. I mean he's had plenty of things that he could gripe about with the NFL over the years I mean he wasn't even out there really complaining about trying to have any of the other rule changes. I mean I honestly this is the first real change. That's actually affected the offense. Everything else has been kind of to the benefit of quarterbacks in the past but yeah I mean it is it is Brian James. You're exactly right. That's probably the perfect comparison Lebron James speaking out about something and well. Let's see let's see if there's actually that has an impact in the league offices offensive having and if and if any other body any other quarterbacks follow his lead and high profile people because you know coaches are reluctant to speak out too much about penalties because they can get fined but if more guys like Tom Brady come out and talked about how this is really affecting the product on the field then you know maybe maybe you know by October the the competition committee or get on get on the phone with the the officiating crews and say hey. Let's say let's talk a little bit. Yeah that's going to happen you know whether it's this week or in the weeks to come talking about player power and talking about NBA NFL comparisons. Let's get to start with Jalen. Ramsey and I'll get to the Puerto Conversation about this but Jalen Allan Ramsay after last week's game requested a trade from the Jaguars he got into a disagreement certainly with head coach Doug marrone during the game he said it in the days afterwards that that kind of past like he wasn't that upset about that moment and what happened there but things that were said to him after the game by the the Jaguars Organization led him to request a trade which he says he did not leaked not WanNa get out. I I don't think I can you know decide what that happened in. I I don't know certainly wasn't linked to me but by whatever circumstance Jalen Ramsey now appears to be you know indiscretions and Jack Respiratory in discussions since for trading their star quarterback so do you think start with this. Do you think the Jaguars do end up trading Ramsey given what you know and give them sort of the tea leaves here. Yeah I mean I think it's really going to depend on what sort of offer they get. I think they're setting the bar very high and they have some kind of comparisons. Now I mean the dealers just gave up a first round draft. Pick for MINKA Fitzpatrick. Who is I think a very good young player. Even significantly younger than Jalen Ramsey is but not as good as doing doing Ramsey so I think you could that's kind of the baseline so you wouldn't accept anything less than what the the dolphins gotten exchanged from Patrick from the steelers first and then you look kind of on the flip side and you have seen a team get to first round draft picks for you know the best defensive player has position arguably with with the with the bears raiders trade last year for Khalil Mack so I think that's on the high side. I think it's unrealistic to expect that team is going to give up two first round draft picks right now at this point in the season but I think there are teams that are looking at Jalen Ramsey and saying yeah we want that guy on our team and if you're a team of Anita cornerback and you have some cap flexibility. I think he's worth it. I mean he's such a good player. It's just a matter of WHO's actually going to pull the trigger and give up A first-round pick and then maybe an additional no higher pick a first-round picking a player and if the Jaguars will actually go for that because you know if you're the jags like why why why do you move on from him right now. Competitive in your division looks like you I mean that division is going to be wide open. It's not a lost season at this point where you know. I get why the dolphins are doing it. The dolphins are completely rebuilding and moving on for the future and you're going to quite as much stock dropped capital as you can. If you're the JAGS trading away your best player and I don't think there's too much of argument that he is your best player. Sorry to all your gardener. Menchu fan club out there doing ramp is your best player. So what are you doing if you trade him away at this point. I mean waving white flag on the season I don't. I don't think that's the right message to send to the rest of your team by by trading him unless somebody calls and gives you I two. I two first round picks. Maybe you have to do it yeah. I don't WANNA run off them. In shoe stands to be clear if you're still listening thank you for not turning the podcast off in in terms of Jalen Ramsey to your point. This isn't the similar to the Judean cloudy situation because cloudy was holding out on a franchise tag and you know certainly could have then sat out the season the Texans would have had to franchise him at twenty percent of his previous rate next year and that would have been untenable wouldn't have wouldn't have created significant trade value so at some point the text said Hey. We're not resigning this guy. Let's just get the best offer weekend ended up being third round pick in a couple of linebackers Jalen Ramsey. He's still two years away from a franchise tag you mean he's making seventeen and a half million dollars over the next two years and then he gets franchise is that would be the point where he could really start holding out and it would actually have a significant impact so I mean the Jaguars hold a lot of the cards here. You know they have after the ability to sit there and say hey we don't we want to keep him. We want to compete for a playoff berth and we think that he's GonNa make us better and we don't have to make a trade yet. The only thing I can think of is the fear of maybe getting into the planning situation down the line where you say okay yeah. We're not signing this guy when extension he's not going to be a part of our team in the future. We just can't trust him to be that guy now. So if you do that then basically you're going to get the most value for him probably now as opposed to even next offseason or or or the offseason after that so I could see them. Maybe thinking about it from that perspective but to your point they have to get blown away trading him for a second round. Pick or a couple of second round picks. Six right. Now makes no sense there. There's absolutely no if you're the Jaguars wouldn't the thing that makes the most sense is figure out how to use him better defensively because I think that's what he's so angry about is the defensive scheme that he's in and coaching staff. That's not using him to the best of his abilities. So wouldn't that be a smarter organizational. Organizational move is to coach better to your best player strengths rather than continue to fight with him and then potentially trade him away for an unknown quantity. I just is what would make most sense to me but you know I'm not an NFL coach so married to my own defensive scheme that I won't adjust it interesting best player. I mean do you think bill check would be using Jalen. Ramsey has his own corner frequent amount of the time absolutely not go bell check. I don't think Wade Phillips. If would-be I mean I think there's a lot of really good defensive coaches who would look at Jane Jalen Ramsey and say your best and man coverage okay. Let's do coverage and not try to force one one of the best defensive players and football to do something that he's not the best at and not just as not good zone corner 'cause I think he can be a very good song corner but I think he sees how so he could make their defense better how he could play better individually and they're not doing it at this point so I think there is some middle ground here where decides should be able to come together and work this out and if these are strictly football reasons that he's unhappy but I don't have a ton of faith that the jags organizationally are going to be willing to you do that it. It does seem like you know. This is a battle between Jalen Ramsey. Tom Coughlin no yeah. I think so you know I think so. It's it's kind of coming out through Doug marrone. WHO's Kinda the middle man who have to be there to kind of be the the day-to-day. Guy Who's enforcing all of this stuff you know yeah I mean Tom. Tom Coughlin is the guy who's building the roster. Who's you know kind of setting this the tone for this team and all of the you know how they wanna play and all that stuff but yeah and Doug Marrone the bad guy here in the middle of it but at the same point like what you know from the top down. Why can't you make this work. I mean you drafted this guy into Dave Caldwell kind of crowning achievement here the draft pick. That's actually worked out suspending. Did this guy make it work. Yeah I mean it's the best first-round pick I should say Brian Bankok way might be his best pick but certainly best first Dr Jones. Is You know legitimately great football player and like unless you're getting an absolute salute premium to trade him you would figure that he you know you should do whatever it takes to get him back on the scientists and Antonio Brown situation where he's being disrupted from practice Akkas or he's doing you know obviously worse things being accused of sexual assault off the field like this is just a guy saying hey I wanna win and I think I can help us. I think an even better by using zing me in this role that I think I'm best fit for and I'm frustrated that on that being used in that role so yeah I I. I think absolutely this is a the Jaguars should resolve the situation internally internally but let's say the Jaguars do not resolve the situation internally. Where could you see Jalen Ramsey heading or what are some of the destinations that you think makes accents for Jalen Ramsey as far as that without getting to the compensation. Just in terms of you know a team that might might be looking at how the cornerback yeah I mean yeah I mean I think the first thing is you have to look and say okay one. Who's WHO's kind of in a win now mode and really need a quarterback and I think the most obvious answers right there right there are the chiefs the Eagles and the saints although the drew brees injury kind of throws the saints into question a little bit there because how much are you. Do you think you can win right now and a an elite cornerback and he can make you a super bowl contender there so you know. I think the chiefs for the team that's so intriguing is just a little unsure if if they would actually if they could actually pull it off given the investments that they've made elsewhere on the roster and what they would have to give up to get him but just in terms of like scheme team and fit and a team that is has legit super bowl aspirations. I would love to see him there. I'd love to see him the same secondary. Tire Matthew you know I I think they need him really bad but you know all the guys who are really plugged into the chiefs right now. Our our beat writer named Taylor you know the guys who are on the ground in Kansas City Day are kind of pump the brakes on on those connections right now just because I think of all these things that I just kind of mentioned they you know they're very heavily invested in Frank Clark. They've already paid tyreek hill and they're you're. GonNa have to bury in the not-too-distant future. give a insanely large record breaking contract. Patrick Mahomes so you know you can only play pay top of the market deal for so many guys and they're already there with several other guys so you know I think that makes a Lotta sense and I think the eagles also really intriguing you know they kind of one of their glaring and weaknesses on their roster right now where they don't have a lot of weaknesses on the roster at least before injuries became a factor last week. you know I'd love I'd love to see Jalen Ramsey in that a secondary there. I think they could really use him and I think that would make them the NFC favorite if they were to figure out a way to get him yeah. I think absolutely I mean the to make it makes total sense the chiefs there is that concern. I think you know maybe fans. Sometimes think about the the cap situation there's also the reality of just some some owners just don't have hundreds of millions of dollars to commit to straight up cops yeah and there's every team has a budget for not just you know refilling at your Austrian and finally the capital so just how much money you can spend on your roster in a given year so chiefs are obviously budgeting for Patrick mahomes extension. They know it's coming. It's going to come from this off season. It's going to be a extremely large number. They're not GonNa let Patrick Mahomes getaway obviously but it is another Joan. Ramsey's extension is going to be improbably forty million in guarantees you'd figure at the very least and that that's a lot of money for a achieved enough. Obviously you know the the franchises worth but just actually having that cash on the hand you know I. It's always something that teams have to think about it that way. So maybe forty million about the ravens as a potential landing I was I was going to bring up the Ravens to the eagles with taking over hosting your no. No no you're thinking on the same wavelength he goes quickly. The one thing I would say about the eagles is it makes total sense for them to make their the most active trade team in the league. They need help it cornerback Joan Ramsey as a franchise player. They love getting talent. The one thing I would say is they have not been an organization historically under high rise spent a lot of money at cornerback they they you know when you're deals typically draft picks. They really don't invest in that position. They sent a audits safety but not a cornerback so I wonder you know. Would they be willing to trade for Jalen Ramsey number one figure they're going to have to give me an extension or not. GonNa Trade for him and then let let him leave but do you trade for him and then change the way that you construct your roster. I it's a question. I'm not saying that. It's a bad idea. I just think it'd be different for the Eagles in terms of the Ravens though I I like the idea the ravens we'll talk about them a little bit after the break here. The Ravens have issues at cornerback they've already lost lost. Jimmy Smith for Awhile Haven Young. They're they're slot. Corner is out for the year there there are certainly questions and they're a team that has you know focused heavily on adding adding talented cornerback thirteen that historically you know whether it's first round picks whether it's free agency whether it's retaining their guys do love having valuable cornerback. Marlin Humphry radio most host star in this league not Jalen Ramsey level but maybe in that second tier very underrated guy and I wonder if you know this is the sort of trade the guy they want to go in for where they say okay. We have the possibility to get a hall of fame caliber cornerback for a decade. They love their draft capital under Kosta. We still haven't really seen a ton of how he's going to operate. You'd figure is going to be similar Ozzie newsome but this could be a trade where they say okay. We have a young quarterback in the Mark Jackson. We have a you you know a cheaper roster in some ways. We lost talent. During this off season. We bought Thomas but we lost a lot of players. were making good mining so maybe getting Jalen Ramsey is guy. We WanNA build around as sort of you know. The the next guy in that sort of hall of fame tier of Your Ray Lewis and your ed reads maybe Joe Ramsey could be the next guy a sort of in that procession for for the Ravens. Yeah I mean I just I love the fit and the potential and just kind of imagining this like New Legion of boom. No you pair Earl Thomas with a really really good corner and it's. It's so fun to think about and I wish I wish it could happen this week and happened before in an aero. Album Ravens are playing the chiefs this weekend. I think there were I would. I would most like to see him. I'd love to see him in Baltimore or Kansas the city those are my two ideal destinations but my my hesitation with the ravens is exactly what you said is that is how much they value their draft capital and it's just it's not and move that they were typically made giving up future first-round pick by the model that we're seeing working in the NFL right now when you've got that chief corner that chief quarterback quarterback and you achieve quarterback especially who think of good enough to get you to play out you do everything you can to build the rest of the roster around you. You make aggressive trades. You signed free reagents so I would love to see Arcot to do it. I'm just not sure if you've quite aggressive enough to to make it happen. I give you a team that has not been talked about a lot but I think makes in some sense at least to me. Yes what about the Dallas Cowboys this is eighteen passed on Jalen Ramsey to take zeke Elliott several years ago. They are very good to start together to another offense looks great. They are a team that is you know certainly would figure in Super Bowl contention attention to win and win a bunch of year. They have a decent secondary. You Know Anthony Brown Spain playing well. Byron Jones is obviously the top corner but a guy who's coming up for a contract this offseason and a guy who they have not signed to an extension yet. If I'm not mistaken yeah I'd rather have Jalen Ramsey than Byron Jones Tehran. That's my point so now not only do they have Byron Jones who they might not want sign them. I want to be the guy or they move on from. They make other deals obviously have a lot of contracts to handout. I'm less concerned about Jerry Jones paying out big money than just about any other any other owner in the league but if you're the Jaguars and your trading Jalen Ramsey well here's your chance to get Byron Jones who has the size to play in your scheme. They do prefer bigger stronger cornerback. Byron Jones's six one in one thousand nine nine. you know a guy who can play on the outside and your scheme who can take over Joan Ramsey where you're not telling your team hey were selling out and we're going to trade at our best player and get a couple of draft picks online. We have a guy who can make a difference for us now end. Maybe we pick I wonder if that could be a trade that might make sense for besides Gosh. It does make the way you lay it out right there. I do Meena kinds friend of your pod said the other day though like that story that show Jalen Ramsey last summer that he is still holding a pretty serious grudge against the Joneses for them not taking him in the draft when they took Zeki L. E. Instead and I dunno and I feel like a you know a contract with fifteen fifty million dollars of guarantees in it would probably make that grudge go away but I thought that'd be my one by one in concern there is that he would not want to play for them but that would probably be the first time in the history of the NFL who didn't want to go play for the cowboys. Guess money at least for me. I'm pretty petty I feel like thirty or forty million dollars in guaranteed money is something that makes me less petty one team the last Democrat we'll get to hear at least from my side the forty niners who'd makes some sense to me as well. They're there to know off to a great start on Richard Sherman's playing great on one side side of the field he he looks good this year as well their corners elsewhere not necessarily all that great and callow weatherspoon. Aucoin Williams struggled a bit just obviously we're all hoping he plays well well but you know. Injuries are ready giving him some trouble this year. you know. I wonder if they would sit there and say hey we have a shot at making in the playoffs here in the NFC west and we you know we we've gone through. The draft picks in years past we we. We've amassed the draft capital. We I've gone for guys you. You know what what if we can get a franchise difference maker at cornerback. What will that do to transform our defense yeah no. That's that's a really intriguing about two and we we know John Lynch's aggressive and I don't think he would be scared to make that sort of move and they're also not afraid to spend money so I don't think drop capital little or cash or cap considerations would be a huge huge concern there and as good as well as good as Richard Sherman has been playing so far this year he's a nearing nearing the end and they're doing it would be fantastic to kind of pair those guys together for the short term and then let Jalen Ramsey be your your your starter long-term there with a long term contract effort after Richard Sherman has done so sure I like. I like all of these options and I think what's so intriguing about this Jalen Ramsey speculation. Is that one if I had to bet right now. I bet they don't trade him that would be. I guess where my money would be if I were to gamble and that SORTA way but we have so many options. There's there's just that's what happens. When there's a player of his caliber who is who's kind of some all of a sudden available you you see how he could fit in so many different places which is why it's so maddening that the jags can't seem to make him that in their own scheme absolutely and we brought up. Richard Sherman and Richard Sherman is someone who's giving a quote about this. It's in recent weeks in recent days and talking about the sort of the new. How can I put it sort of the the the leverage players are exploiting in the NFL and and certainly no. There's you'd compare it to the NBA. You'd compare to sort of the the leverage top tier players have had moving around and and sort of creating opportunities for themselves and Richard Sherman is someone who has publicly spoken out many times about you know player having that ability to sort of create their own situations and create their own opportunities and it seems like it's becoming more of a conversation in the NFL fell now especially over the last couple months where you had Melvin Gordon Holding at Zeke Elliot Holding out so that got resolved the Antonio Brown situation where he forced his way out of Oakland and the Mega Fitzpatrick situation where he was frustrated in one and the trade ended up getting traded to Pittsburgh Do you think this is a more pressing issue issue now than it was in years past. What do you think the causes and do you think it's going to continue to keep happening. yes. I mean I think it is a real issue. I don't think it's just kind of a media created issue. I mean I think the fact that we all of the situations that you just rattled off. it used to be that you'd see just one of those type of situations where really the the only time you would ever see a player to exert any leverage was when they were franchise tag it was kind of that was their their holdout time and you know. I think I think owners concerned about it because it's happening a lot but I think this is also kind of a problem of their own creation and you know I've talked to a lot of did a lot of reporting this summer are about kind of some player issues and CD issues and for story that should be running soon at the athletic and the the rookie salary structure and the franchise tag doug the way that's used with multiple multiple chances use the franchise tag in the fifth year option and as part of that rookie salary structure. I mean it greatly reduces players his freedom of movement and especially for first picks and just about all these guys that we're talking about that are unhappy our first round picks and one there the really good players but two guys that they we know that there are ability to maximize their earning potential is is severely limited by the NFL rules and stuff. That's in that's ingrained in the and that teams can use the franchise tag on them not just once but they can use it twice in addition to that fifth year option so they're greatly restricted from actually hitting free agency and the only only kind of recourse that they have at this point is you know holding out demanding trades and I not I know I know fans. Don't let it you know fans. Always it seems almost it always seemed to side with ownership in these types of situations which always confuses me a little bit but you know. I understand Dan why they want to take some of this power back and tab a little bit more control over their prime years of their career and be able to capitalize and you know they they look at the NBA and they. Let's see how how guys are able to kind of dictate where they go. They're able to you know have more freedom of movement obviously they have guaranteed contracts which the NFL doesn't have have. I don't think that's a super realistic. That's going to become the norm at any point soon. It's not part of the CBA. Teams aren't giving guaranteed contracts. It's not something that the players are collectively bargaining in there and so I think that's really what the problem is so when when owners now are starting to see these stories coming out there. I think Dan Graziano wrote on on this week about you know how owners are going to consider some sort of penalties additional penalties for players that are holding out you know. I think what they've gotta do is in these next see being associations eliminate some of these things whether it's the fifth year option for these first round picks or the franchise tag. I can't see them actually getting rid of the franchise tag but it's all of these factors together that they've created the system where you know players are pushing back wanting to take a little bit more control of their careers now. Yeah I think absolutely the franchise tag. It'll be incredibly difficult to you. You know a get rid of that. I don't think that's about to happen anytime soon but you know that that reduces so much of the leverage players have at the top level and I think that's going to be what we see happening in the future. I think we may see more. You know sort of Julio Jones own style contracts from some teams where he got a sixty six million in his extension and sixty four million is guaranteed. you know I I I think you'll see more deals like that for the when you have a permissive owners the falcons are one of the more generous ownership groups in the league and top to your players where where where there's really no alternative where he would just say we have to have this guy on our roster and I think you'll see players at that tier continue to sort of exploiting their leverage whether it be a Jalen Ramsey requesting trade whether it be Oleo Jones spreading the holdout unless he gets a new deal two years away from free agency you know I think you'll see players to topple retire quicker because they make more money but I think it's going to influence at this point if the CBS is relatively similar just those top tier guys think something's going to have to change in the CBA for that the trickle down to sort of the more rank and file in the players Union yeah for sure and I think it would be interesting and I haven't seen this reporting done yet how be sort of hold outs are received by the NFL NFL membership at large the guys that are on minimum contracts and you know the guys that are bouncing from team to team and the fifty fifty third man on the roster. I A lot of those guys I think would probably be afraid to speak out about it but you know but I think it is one of those things that it kind of affects the entire the entire membership the entire League but but really it's the these top guys in the first round picks most affected and also have the most leverage to actually affect any change absolutely Let's I tend to break here. Let's talk about two of the week three games in a moment here on the bill Barnwell show. Can you feel it. Football season is upon us whether you're road tripping to the game or throwing around the Pigskin with your spouse you WanNa make the most of it so make the most of it with pennzoil synthetic motor oil. It's the first motor oil oil made from natural gas not crude oil. It gives you unbeatable engine protection. It's kind of like an offensive lineman for your engine. The proof is is in the pennzoil based on sequence for a test using. Sap Five W. Thirty all right back here on the barn while show I'm Bill Barnwell. ESPN joined again by the Athletics Lindsay Jones. Let's preview two of the more interesting games at least to me and we can review the NFL and and I think the big one obviously the one when people are most excited about is chiefs ravens to two teams we have the chiefs offense which continues look like a juggernaut going up against the Ravens who historically great defense look impressive the first two weeks of the year and have Lamar Jackson laying like an MVP candidate through two weeks so the most complete ravens team. Maybe we've seen in and while I have to admit though I have been wrong before I will be wrong again. I could be wrong here. I have kind of a hot. Take about this game before. It starts to have a hot day. Drop me needs planes coming out. I'm ready. Bring it. Bring on the hot take. I don't have enough enough of them. Typically I think to justify justify any drops in the heartache business but the thing I would say is this we're assuming the ravens defense is the Ravens defense we know from years past and at the very least. I'm skeptical that is the case. Evens lost a ton of talent during the fees. Cj Mostly Terrell suggs various myth Eric acquittal and granted they brought in Thomas. Thomas is a fantastic player. I love Roy Thomas but they've already lost haven young and brandon cart guard upbringing car. I mean Smith cornerback back young after the year Jimmy Smith out. I believe for this chiefs game as well and you look at how they've played this year weak one. They played the dolphins. I'm not sure the dolphins are legitimate. NFL team especially on the offensive side of the ball so I am very skeptical that that means very much in terms of evaluating the the Ravens Defense and then last week was twenty five or forty three forty nine. They moved the ball consistently up down the field and the ravens they just really struggled in the red zone own and I don't think the chiefs are going to have the same struggles in the red zone that Arizona did so to me. I see situation where I think we're heading into this game thinking. It's GonNa be greed offense versus defense on the Baltimore side. I don't know if that's going to be the case. Yeah I think that's I think those are legitimate concerns. I don't think that's super hot. Take I mean I think I think you gotta work on your hot takes rebel before before you're going to be a hot. Take master there but I I I think those are legitimate concerns and I think one thing that we can expect out of this game and expect out of the Ravens. Defense is at least stylistically what what they're gonNA do. I think they can take a lot from the success that they had against Patrick Mahomes last year. When both teams played in December went over time and you know. I think that I think we can we know what wink Martindale defensive coordinator what he wants to do and that's going to bring a lot of pressure. Try to hit Patrick Mahomes as much as possible just the the question is how effective than they can they be doing that and do they have. The personnel that here we here in week three is able to do what they were able to do. Last year when they had You you know the Darius Smith and Terrell suggs on the edges instead of new guys so you know I think I think stylistically we know what they're gonNA. Do I know I I know they know how to get after the cheese and how to attack Patra mccombs Patrick Mahomes. I'm just not sure like you said if they're going to be able to actually follow through with that and I thought it it was you know doing some reading this morning and Jesse back the Ravens beat writer for the I thought he went into the philosophy and he I thought he made a really good point where she said if this game was happening in January right now this was a playoff game like let's say that this is a divisional playoff game. He thinks that January the Ravens defense will probably be built and and ready to face the base the chiefs and to really get the chiefs a good game but here in week three. He's just not sure that they're together enough to do that yet and given given the injury situations that you mentioned so you know. I I would certainly pick the chiefs in this game but I am so excited to watch it. I mean I a lot of times. If I'm home on a Sunday I'll watch a lot on red zone own jump around but I think for those one o'clock games. It's GonNa be like strictly on that game and it's GonNa take a lot to prime away from Ravens chiefs and not early window. Yeah I think absolutely yeah. I think it's a really good point and last year they did a decent job against cheese which which it's all relative. It's a sliding scale. They have twenty ninety seven points. That game went to overtime that was actually the game where Robert Griffin came in for Lamar Jackson in overtime and then the Baltimore offense kind of stalled out once he got in in there but you know they were effective that she's had to score with fifty three seconds left to kind of tie the game and get the game into overtime to begin with. Ravens almost won the game without getting over time and I think it's just tough because I don't know what you do to stop this defense. If you don't have a great natural pass rush and you're not able to drop seven into coverage rush for the Ravens are one of the most blitz happy teams in the NFL there was second in the NFL blitz percentage last year second in the NFL and blitz percentage senators this year and Patrick Mahomes has the best QBR in the NFL since the start of twenty eighteen against the blitz. I mean it's you know you would figure that. It's GONNA A B him getting away from the blitz him finding a one on one option whether it's McCall harden whether it's to Marcus Robinson whether it is a Travis Kelsey whether it is Sammy Watkins Watkins and eventually there's going to be enough. Mitch Nashes that that he's GonNa make big plays and you know can the Ravens third and fourth and fifth if cornerbacks hold up in coverage against those guys if they're you know mashed up forty yards downfield with their speed I I I would be skeptical so I think it could be a game where it's it's you know a couple three more more three announcing you might expect from the chiefs but I think you're GonNa see the big place that we come to see as a hallmark the thing I wonder about on the flip side of this though and I I wonder what you think about this in terms of the Ravens sort of game plan on offense. You have more confidence. I think in Lamar Jackson than you had in years past after his start to the season but do you want to slow this game down and just try and hold on offense for as much as possible. Just run run run run run or do you trust that what if the game does turned into a shootout you have the weapons and he had the quarterback to keep up. Yeah I mean I. I think they'll feel confident. They have the quarterback. That's GONNA keep keep up. I still think that there's elements to the Ravens offense that we haven't seen yet. you know I think last week it was kind of really fun to you know week. One it was all about Lamar Jackson yes and as pastor we to got to kind of see him at in the ad back in the running the running elements. I still think that there's parts of this that we haven't seen yet parts of their evolution that maybe they've been saving for this game so I think that they have to be confident in him to kind of engage in a shootout. I don't know if that's misplaced confidence. I guess we'll find out but I think it's GonNa be a really good benchmark for where actually the ravens offenses where Lamar Jackson is in his development but I think they're going to score points you know I think they're gonna be able to take advantage of some. You know really big explosive plays I think Mark Brown is legit. I don't think this is kind of a flash. You know rookie flash. I think that they're just finding more more and more ways to use them and if there's any team that knows how deadly it is to have a really really fast wide receiver. It's the chiefs so you'd hope that they have been planning for that. Have some sort of defensive game plan for that but I'm I'm so excited. I hope it's a shootout. I I hope it goes over time you know with somebody who just fan of football and wants to see kind of the next the next generation of really good quarterbacks. I'M I. I hope it's a shootout and I hope Lamar Jackson can keep up yeah for sure the one thing about the chiefs offense. I did not get that I wanted to mention and I I wonder you think given that the chiefs are now. Downer fishers out four to six weeks. They have camera irving who was a bench to guard last year. Laying left tackle go for the time being their running game has been bad this year. Damian Williams twenty two carries for thirty four yards and he's injured shady McCoy Twenty one for one zero four looks good good but really mostly one or two big plays and he's been pretty inconsistent otherwise he's also one hundred percent at this point. Are you concerned about the chiefs running game. Do you think the Ravens may be just sort of play with six seven defensive backs and just dare chiefs to run the ball on them. I mean they play with six or even seven defensive backs isn't Patrick mahomes still just GonNa probably not sure if I'm just not sure if that would scare your him at all and if they find other ways to just whether it's using the running backs in the passing game a little bit more by another ways to exploit them but I'm not not overly concerned about the chiefs running game at this point. I mean I'd like to see them. Have the option of having a passing game I think or having a running game excuse me and you you know some of the points when they were when they were at their best last year and even when they're at their best with Alex Smith are it was when they had a kind of a functional running game and running back that you could rely on three downs and you know I think you know I- lots of people including myself have made the argument that the cream hunted not got himself into trouble and and not the chiefs cut him. I think would've won the super bowl last year. I think they were completely different team with a really good running back than they are right now so I do WanNa see them at least be functional well there but I'm not super worried about it right now and I think if there's any team in the league that can get by with a below below average mediocre running game. it's the chief. That's probably fair yeah. I think it's absolutely good point. Let's get to the OR DO WANNA. Make a pick in this game. I don't never ask two picks. I feel like I should do you feel like the chiefs are gonNA take it. I I do I think it's going to be high scoring. I'll go like thirty five twenty eight chief and hopefully coming down to the very end there absolutely. I hope it works out that way. I think is going to win but you know Mark Jackson. Surprise me this year. I didn't think he was capable of what we saw in week. One and I like Lamar Jackson so I I think there's I hope it's the game that you're that you are framing. It asks the think that'd be really fun. I think I think the arrowhead crowd is going to be yes really jacked up. This is their first home game since AFC championship game. You know good weather tailgating I think I think that the home the arrowhead crowd is going to give the she's just like an added out extra. Buddhist absolutely the other game I want to get to this week is a game between two teams. Seemingly seemingly heading in different directions we have San Francisco Forty niners off to a to winnow start finally looking like they're going to be delivering on the potential Angelique showing for years and the Pittsburgh steelers and I can't imagine there is a steelers fan could have expected this Owen to start Ben Rothlisberger out for the year Mason Rudolph making his first. NFL start against the niners this weekend so in watching Mason Rudolph play and I I think it's obviously too early to say anything about Mason Rudolph adjacent that first game you know he was fine. It wasn't like he was awful wasn't like he was fantastic. It was like wow there's there's there's Ben Rothlisberger part to this great the steelers but you know the interception was Dante increase fault which would certainly not not not Mason Rudolph all Dante Moncrieff creepiest not probably going to play this week might be done with the steelers after two weeks. He's been that bad but I I don't. I don't think that the steelers might drop off all that much was not playing better than sonnet better quarterback. Mason Rudolph but I think it seems like he has the infrastructure that a a young quarterback would need to succeed in you know fourteen expects to compete now. Yeah I mean I. I don't know you would think so so the way that's typically the if you looked at the steelers roster and the way that they're kind of strapped with their really good offensive line that got a decent running game. They've got a really good number. One wide receiver would think that'd be kind of the perfect situation for backup quarterback to to slide into but they've just been so dysfunctional and looks looks like they're not super. Well coached all of a sudden Their defense has been really bad surprisingly bad so yeah. I've got a lot of questions of how how they're gonNA do their special. You know having go to the West Coast and playing a nice defense. That's been really really really really good so it's certainly not an ideal situation for for Mason Rudolph to be making his I start so I don't know if they just looked so out of sorts and it's been really hard to watch. I think that the see this kind of decimation of uh-huh steelers team that I think we ought I don't know if anybody was saying oh they were super bowl contender going in this year but I think I think kind of those expectation that they should at least be an AFC north arthritis and potentially be a playoff team. Yeah I mean the thing that was strange about last. Week's game is that you saw what happened. They you know they were. I think pretty comfortably ahead of the seahawks and the first after that game I think they had to near defensive touchdowns. That nearly came back. I think was actually called back in the one came up short but they were out playing the seahawks in that game and then once Rudolf came in they did struggle more ended up losing the game. I don't know no if that was Mason Rudolph fault that was really the defensive side of the ball and the struggles hat in in terms of not being able to stop the the the seahawks and in third and long situations that they had thirteen sixteen and were about force upon they'll Russell Wilson scramble for fifteen yards and then the seahawks converting thirty four th and one and lock up the game. I mean you know maybe they got a field goal when the game maybe were sitting here saying. Mason Rudolph is Garner Minhsiu two point. Oh and he's you know Gaulish quarterbacks by the defense didn't stop. I mean they got an abort. They basically only got US toppling the Seahawks muffed snap and the loser recovered it so I I can't imagine the defense is going to be this battle season and part of it was that they played the Patriots in week one but they were the fifth worst defense. I believe by Ebay after two weeks and I you know there's just too much talent here for them to be this bad. No Yeah I mean absolutely and You you know I think they realized that and that's why we saw them. Go out and give up a first round draft pick to get makeup fitzpatrick. Who's going to kind of be allowed to just play safety for them interested to see how how integrated he hasn't to their game plan after having arrived there on Monday. I would expect that he should he should play a lot. I mean they need them to play a lot. You gave up a lot for him. so but yeah they they know this. There's this I found this today. from mark bully that they have eight former first round picks starting on their defense. That's incredible so you should be a lot better than they are and they need to start playing like they have eight. First draft picks on their defense yes and making his Patrick. You'd figure cure is gonNA fill in at free safety. Shun Davis is GONNA hit. ed hit injured reserve already. We're not going to but it'd be a straight swap. Their are you know Mika. Fitzpatrick played cornerback in time for the dolphins. Maybe his best role could be like a sort of you know tired matthew sort of hybrid role but it seems like the logical thing especially for a guy who doesn't necessarily know the fence yet is starting at free safety sort of play him in that role and then we'll see what the niners do in terms of its voiding its Patrick's inexperienced an experience because I mean watching that game last week against the the bengals when I saw more than anything is just eighteen that was so aggressive in terms of taking taking advantage of the Bengals over pursuit is the word I was thinking of received a lot of you know and and we know that with China what he wants to do an offense what what intrigues me about the niner's thing you brought up which is their defense which has been very good through two weeks and you know I. I wonder how much to them. Do you think you have to see before you start believing that they are. You know sort of a team sort of defense that they've been hoping they were going to become for years is is it. Are you good now. Does that be more weeks like I said a month like what is take for the niners to kind of be real in your eyes. Yeah I mean I. I think I already believe it. Yeah I saw them a couple of times in the preseason training camp both in Santa Clara and then when they were in Denver practicing in the Broncos and you just look at them and you're like okay. I I mean this is. I mean they're so up front. They're really athletic. my question about believing in that niners defense is. I just WanNa see if they can stay healthy yeah and you know. d- Ford has barely practiced at all. He's got this knee tendinitis but has kind of carried over from when he was in Kansas City and he didn't practice for much of the pre-season season. He's been kind of out of practice most of this week. They think he's going to be able to play but it's just gonNA constantly have to monitor and then you know Nick Bosa is just you know I think we're just always going to be talking about some sort of injury situation with him until he can prove that he can make it through entire games in weeks without coming out with some sort of injury so I think he made it through through the the bengals game. Okay has practice this week but you know I wanNA. I just WanNa see those guys healthy. Stay healthy for consecutive weeks. and that's that's really my only concern at this point before kind of like all in just especially with their front seven and their defensive line especially if you're defensive line is really good at can make up for some deficiencies agency elsewhere but they're just they're just so deep especially at tackle now the way they're able to rotate guys in and then they're just they're so tall and they're interest. They're just really fun to watch a friend so I'm there I just WanNa see them. Stay healthy on a week-to-week basis. Yeah I mean the athletes especially upfront or certainly there but to your point right I mean you look at at the snap counts for the Bengals game and granted you know they were blowing up the bengals. So maybe you set your guys little more but Nick Bosa played forty three percent of the defensive snaps. Defoe Lord Ward played thirty five percent of the defensive snaps and You wonder if that's GONNA rise. You know there are going to want to rotate their lineman. They're very deep front and you know the Eagles do this as a strange. They don't play their stars forty percent of the time they played them. Sixty sixty five percent of the time with the idea that when we get to January Fletcher Cox is GonNa play every snap like he's not GonNa play seventy ninety percent of the sanctuary waiting for the big moment to get him in there so I think absolutely nick is still playing through the high ankle sprain. Ford his knees a problem squad. What is a problem even if those guys play they. They're one of the rare teams. It seems like where I research on this. I haven't found any meaning behind behind when you have your bye week. Whether it's better to have it earlier late it makes no difference based on everything I've done but this is like a team where getting a bye week four which just by they're about to get might be good for them just to get those two guys you know sort of a week of rest and get them ready for. I was going to be a long. You know thirteen game stretch to end the season. Yeah I agree. Although I I just a high ankle and then knee tendinitis. I'm just afraid that those are things that they're just not going to ever be better. Take take months off and you know that's my. That's my fear for those two guys but hopefully they're young. They're healthy your resilient and they're able to you know get get back to the point that they can continue playing through it. That's my concern there and but I think the week four by is going to be good offensively as they are trying to adjust to life without Joe Staley really which I think that's it's been a really under reporter underrated injury this week just given all the other stuff. That's been going on in the league but you know you just don't replace a guy like Joe. Staley and they don't have a great kind of backup plan here. I think I'm not I'm not confident in what they're gonNA do their at left tackle. It's going to be just in school pronouncing his name I apologize but the rookies pronouncing school you're right okay good guests. I very rarely early to get my I guess right with Bronson players names but yeah rookie sex brand pick is going to be stepping in and then just alias just an institution. They're like you just don't replace. I like that with anybody and maybe they'll be active in the trade market. I don't think they're GONNA go out and get. Trent Williams from Washington given that Kyle Shanahan as the head coach of this team but you know certainly a big loss for a team that their offensive line finally looked like it was coming together. Western rich burke final expect the guy he was several years ago with the giants so you would hope that what they do find a solution there that either school or or were they end up playing a tackle and holding up but yeah. I mean this is going to be really interesting game. I think with the niners yes they cannot two or three you know start even given that the NFC west it's in good shape that certify that puts them in a really strong put in a really strong spot to end up with a wildcard down the line. Obviously it's only three games missed the playoffs starting three. You know it happens all the time but I mean just banking those three winds start. The year puts commits such good shape going forward yeah and I think this is an okay yeah. I mean I think the room where talk a lot about the steelers defense. I think the one that's GonNa do have the past Russians. There's GonNa be a big challenge for for Justin School in his first start but yeah you're right if they can get to three no that's huge and you know before we move on from that. I just one one more thing about Joe Staley as I went to the von Miller toss rush summit this summer and sat through like a several hours long film session where they were you know watching all these pass rushers going against offensive tackles around the league and I will say well a lot of the film session there. was you know kind of off the record in terms of the stuff that guys were saying about offensive tackle. I can say that the one guy hi who got the most kind of universal praise and respect from the guys in that room and those guys like Aaron Donald and Frank Clark von Miller was Joe Staley. I mean he was the guy who most guys talked about how they had so much trouble against them how much they respected him so this is a really significant loss here for the niners. This is not going from kind of just it's an average D- off an average offensive tackle to an undrafted rookie this is going from an all pro to a guy who who's even his college commission coach didn't have the best the best things to say about him this week. This is an historic from the athletic that I read this morning. that I just thought was really terrifying thing if you're a niner fan and this is from a Justin school specific position coach from from Vanderbilt and he said that school is quote not one hundred percent on his fundamental and he's not the greatest athlete in the world but he's going to give you everything. He's got to get the job done. He might get his tail kicked but it'll get his tail kick slowly to get the ball out. You know I don't it doesn't give me the best confidence that the best thing that your position coach has to say about you is that at least the the pain will happen slowly so he works already anything to be really interesting. His Dad is that his his father is the executive assistant director for intelligence with the FBI so yeah. That's super interesting so you know I think he's you know works. Really hard probably does a lot of research. has a father in high places who could probably get some really scary stuff done if you know if you needed to but probably not the best athlete to be facing Watt Pre for start yeah so let me ask you this. We'll finish up here. in terms of this game is more intriguing if the niners win and start three zero or is it more intriguing to you if the steelers win with Rudolph often kind of salvage. What's been a horrible start the year. Ooh you know I think the niners winning just because of the NFC west is so interesting right now where you have two other they're two and teams with the Rams and the seahawks so you know I think that race that division would be so interesting if all three of those teams or three and and what that's GonNa mean for the NFC. We but you know I wanna see a good showing for Mason Rudolph. I don't want this to be kind of a lopsided. Another team where quarterback is hurt and it takes their season. I think for the niners there's and you know and I know you. You've been on the niners bandwagon all off season. I think we talked about it back in June that you you were really high on their chances to make the playoffs so you know I imagine we wanna be proven right here. Well Lindsey some of the other teams. I said we're going to improve this year. Include the giants and the jets so I'm GonNa Take Doc I'M GONNA hope for a small victory where I can if I can get the niners lockdown and there'd be work on the giants jets in the months of common terms of teams that were expecting to improve that would be nice. I'll just say them thirty saying you think the niners are going to win this game. Oh Boy flipping the tables on you here. I think the steelers are GonNa win. This game all right other than ours are still. GonNa improve the steelers pulling up so they're six and a half point underdogs. I I don't know I. I just think that I think they absolutely need to win this game. I think the niners this is sort of like a house money game for them. I think before the year if he said hey you can start to start the year before you buy they would have been all in. They would have been super thrilled. sealers feels like this might be their season if they lose this game so. I think Mike Tomlin is going to have them ready and I think that they're gonNA be better. I think especially on the defensive side of the ball then they've been the first two weeks so I'm GonNa go the steelers steelers to cover but the niners to win that that's fine. We'll look we will not play the heartache. Drop that over the course the chauffeur offer this but Lindsay. If people check out what you write in also now also what you do in terms of podcasting work and they do that yes you can find find Oliver. Stuff are all of my stuff at the athletic you can find me on twitter at by Lindsey H Jones and yeah we've got a twice weekly podcast on the athletic where we you. Kinda go through our power rankings and then do some other rankings of fun things around the League and then I was on our new podcast called the lead this week talking all about the Antonio Brown situation an and kind of the league's with including the League League's history with dealing with players accused of violence against women in the personal conduct policy so yeah go download those check those without and yeah follow me on twitter by Lindsey H Jones Awesome Lizzie. Thank you so much. Thanks guys. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks so much to Lindsay. Jones and guys say be sure sure to check out the Adam Schefter. PODCAST WIKI talks with one of my favorite players former. NFL Receiver two time Superbowl Winner Torrey Smith on why deciding to retire now was the right decision. Torrey Smith one of the more thoughtful players in the NFL very smart guy definitely worth your time there and remember to subscribe to the Adam Schefter podcast and if you want slightly less a smart conversation also my show the barn will show wherever you get your podcast but thanks for listening more audio coming from US next week.

Jalen Ramsey NFL ravens chiefs Patrick Mahomes jags Jacksonville Jaguars Jane Jalen Ramsey football Doug marrone Tom Brady Mark Jackson Byron Jones Lamar Jackson Tom Baltimore Joan Ramsey Pittsburgh steelers Jacksonville
GE and the House That Jack Built

TechStuff

50:05 min | 1 year ago

GE and the House That Jack Built

"Today's episode is brought to you by IBM. SMART is open open is smart. IBM's combining their industry expertise with open source leadership of Red Hat. Let's unlocked the world's potential. Let's put smart to work learn more at IBM dot. COM SLASH RED HAT welcome to textile production of iheartradio's. How stuff works either in welcome to text up? I'm your host Jonathan Strickland executive producer with how stuff works and I heart radio and I love all things tech and we are continuing our journey through the history of General Electric or GE accompany the has encountered some pretty significant challenges over the last decade or so now in our first two episodes I went went through the founding of GE and made my way all the way up through World War Two and I talked about how some of the top level executives of the company were called upon by the US the government to serve in wartime government positions to help the US meet the needs of supplying the military with the equipment necessary to fight the war. I also talked about how GE continued. They need to grow as a company building on new departments and divisions and diversifying the company's businesses and I ended the last episode talking about a court case that determined GE was being anticompetitive by leveraging patents in order to act as an effective monopoly when it came to manufacturing light bulbs now we're almost up to nineteen fifty and it's time to get out of this world. The one thing I want to mention before we get into the nineteen fifties is that in nineteen forty six a scientist at GE lean named Vincent Schaefer developed the process of cloud seeding and the ideas pretty elegant but has long been a subject of scientific dispute so here's the process it involves distributing tiny particles into clouds in an effort to make it rain and the thought is that these particles will act as nucleic really excites for raindrops to form when the raindrops get large enough they have enough weight to fall to Earth and so that is is the general thought behind cloud seeding it's been practiced ever since but there have been many questions over whether or not cloud seeding actually works sometimes it would rain. Sometimes it wouldn't and if it did rain. Is there any way to be sure that it was the cloud seeding that actually made the difference. I mean you had to have a cloud there. In the first place he couldn't just manufacturer cloud experiments in labs suggested that it should work but the natural world is very different from the controlled conditions of a lab environment ornament. It didn't help that. Many of our measuring instruments lacked the precision to detect very small raindrops so you couldn't really monitor to see if it was actually doing what it was supposed supposed to do. An experiment in two thousand eighteen suggests that cloud seeding does in fact work at least to some extent but there's another question that still open which is does does cloud seeding make economic sense does the amount of water produced by rainfall justify the cost of flying aircraft up and distributing the particles articles in the first place because may very well work but it might not work well enough to make sense from a financial perspective. I just find it fascinating that we've essentially really been doing this for seventy years and we still don't know if we should be doing it now. I can certainly see why cloud seeding companies feel. We should be doing it. I mean I mean that's their business but the jury is still technically out over whether or not it makes sense and they're still a little bit debate on whether or not got it really truly works or if it works in enough conditions for it to be reasonable now in nineteen forty seven g e made the first two door refrigerator. Raider Freezer Combo and I only mention it here because I think it's cool. That's a pun now up to the nineteen fifties. He's so in one thousand nine hundred eighty one g built. A new jet engine called the j seven nine and here's an interesting historical note when engineers tested the J. Seven nine which had variable status the efficiency ratings were so high that the engineers thought their instruments were malfunctioning tioning. There's there's no way we're getting this level of energy efficiency out of this thing but then that raises a question for a lot of people what is a status was that actually mean will the name gives you a hint statr stationary that kind of thing <hes> so in jet engines you have fan blades that rotate those are rotors and you you had fan blades that holden places are called status and the purpose of this combination is to both draw air into the engine and to compress fresh air before it enters into the combustion chamber the adjustable status meant that the engine could be finely tuned to produce higher compressor pressures. Shire's and to produce more usable energy as opposed to waste heat when you're actually burning fuel in nineteen fifty four G. Research Laboratory scientists anticipate named Tracy Hall announced that his team had discovered a way to create synthetic diamonds in the lab halls team used a process involving high high pressure high temperature or hp ht they were successful in producing synthetic diamonds on December sixteenth nineteen fifty four. You're now other teams were using different methods to create diamonds of the in other companies as well but it was halls efforts that would receive the credit for design the first first reliable reproducible methodology to create commercially viable synthetic diamonds so a lot of qualifiers there because there were people who are working on in different methodologies and they were also producing diamonds but it wasn't considered to be as reliable nor as viable for commercial use and these were not diamonds meant to. Adorn engagement rings or other jewelry for one. They were Brownish in color so they weren't terribly attractive. They also were very very very tiny the largest diamond they produced in that early batch measured point one five millimeters across so these were not large stones more importantly this purpose would be put to commercial uses <hes> in fact it wouldn't be until the nineteen seventies that scientists would actually be able to create diamonds of sufficient quality unclarity that they could be used in the gym industry and even then the process was so labor intensive and so expensive it was not economically feasible feasible to create synthetic diamonds for decorative purposes. The cost of the synthetic diamond would be so high though would actually be cheaper for free to go out and buy a ring with a natural diamond on it also the whole topic of diamonds is one that I find particularly cularly upsetting <hes> but that's a that's a topic for a totally different podcast. So how did they make synthetic diamonds while I'm sure for most of you know. Diamonds are a form of carbon. It's a it's a crystalline form of carbon. You GotTa crystalline structure where you have a carbon atom that surrounded by four other carbon atoms and they're all connected to each other through strong vaillant bonds and diamonds are incredibly hard. They are the hardest natural substance we we found so far. They also have a lot of different industrial uses. They can operate at high temperatures where they can hold firm at high temperatures. They don't really <unk> operate at all. They're just minerals but they hold together well at high temperature so you put it on something like a high speed cutting tool and the hardness combined signed with the fact that it's not going to break down at high temperatures means you can run that very high rpm since start cutting through stuff pretty well in nature diamonds form as carbon and is compressed at very high temperatures over a very long time and if it weren't for stuff like volcanoes we probably never would have found the things because they tend to form in the Earth's mantle which is not easy to get to they they the zone where they form about one hundred miles beneath the surface of of the earth. That's far deeper than we've ever drilled holes. Lab used a belt press and this press could exert more than ten GIG PASCAL ASK SCOWLS of pressure. A Pascal is a unit of measurement for pressure and it equates to a Newton per square meter standard atmospheric pressure is about one hundred one one point three to five kilo pass Cowles so a Giga Pascal is one billion Pascal Tenga passed gals would be ten billion pass gals. Dell's so that's a lot of pressure g would actually put it another way for those of us who don't use scientific notation for everything. They said the press could exert one point five million pounds per square inch of pressure so in other words. It's just a whole lot of pressure and plus. It would operate eight at a very high temperature. It would be heated to a temperature of more than three thousand six hundred fifty degrees Fahrenheit or two thousand ten degrees Celsius. This press pushed against a mixture of graphite which is another form of carbon and graphite would be dissolved in a catalyst metal than catalyst metals finals could include stuff like nickel or iron catalyst in a chemical reaction as something that facilitates and speeds up the chemical reaction so in this case and then that we didn't have wait millions of years for synthetic diamonds to form instead took about twenty minutes the largest of those diamonds like I said was point one five millimeters across so created darned tiny the following year. Ge introduced hermetically sealed relays. These are electronic components that could be used in lots of different applications nations that otherwise might be sensitive to their environments particularly in stuff like high altitude airplanes and aerospace applications and variations of these components would be used throughout the next few decades in those particular applications who's just one early example of how GE would become an important part of the space race which was just heating up in the nineteen fifties between the United States and the then Soviet Union. Meanwhile the company continued to expand and it's consumer product line it introduced a toaster decades earlier but in one thousand nine hundred eighty six it introduced the toaster oven specifically typically it was one called the t ninety three toast are oven and it's adorable. Nisha look up a picture of it that same year. Ge built a a commercial jet engine based off the J seventy nine design which was intended for military aircraft that wasn't meant to be for commercial aircraft so this new engine region which had the designation CJ eight. Oh five would mark General Electric's injury into the commercial jet engine business so now they were building jet engines engines not just for the US military but also companies like Boeing and other companies are creating aircraft nineteen fifty seven would be a really big year for GE e the company secured a contract with United States air force to provide the engine for an experimental supersonic aircraft the XP Seventy Valkyrie now. The EX in aircraft names is a big tip off that that's an experimental prototype. You'll often see X. As part of the designation at the beginning of various aircraft usually means experimental the engine called. Dj Ninety three was capable of producing enough thrust to propel the experimental aircraft two three times the speed of sound owned and it would travel an altitude of seventy thousand feet or about twenty one thousand meters now the time the thing was that the greatest threat to bombers were intercept aircraft so if you could fly high enough and fast enough you wouldn't have to worry about that. No one would ever be able to get a bead on you. They wouldn't be able to to to track you and fire on you at that speed in that altitude so the valkyrie would be safe against typical defenses however the Soviet Union was developing surface has to air missile technology and that started to bring into question whether or not the valkyrie would be equally as effective against that sort of defense system system and one of the ways to get around that would be to fly the Valkyrie at lower altitudes where it could fly beneath radar but if you did that you you also had to fly slower you couldn't fly at the same mach three speed at lower altitudes that meant that the bomber would be flying lower and slower lower than it was designed to do and it would be no more effective than other bombers that were already in use at that time and it was more expensive so with all of those this consideration stacked against the Valkyrie the ultimate decision was not to go into production and build those out as a production model so it it just remained an experimental prototype but is super cool to look at if you ever want to look at a picture of XP seventy valkyrie pretty neat looking something else that happened in nineteen fifty eighty seven was the general electric constructed a nuclear power plant and Alameda County California and it was the first nuclear reactor to be connected to a commercial commercial electricity grid in other words. General Electric was able to produce electricity though would go to average citizens over him Alameda County and and I've talked a little bit about how nuclear power plants work. I'll just give a very very high level rundown so new have a nuclear material that undergoes nuclear nuclear decay and as part of that process a releases subatomic particles typically neutrons and those neutrons collide with other atoms of that same nuclear material Israel. This is your fuel and when they collide with those other atoms it initiates a chain reaction those atoms then go undergo radioactive decay and they release neutrons and so on and so forth so if there's enough fissile material that is material that can split apart in the fuel this reaction can be sustained until the amount of fuel dips below critical levels in which case you start to have fewer and fewer reactions and you've spent nuclear fuel doesn't mean that all the nuclear radiation stuff has gone far from it but it's no longer producing the reactions at the level. You need to sustain that reaction indefinitely. This is a nuclear power plant now. The concentration -centration of nuclear material is really high where that reaction starts to pick up speed over and over and over again and this happens in the blink of an eye then you can set off a much more explosive chain-reaction in that case. You have a nuclear bomb rather than a power plant then that that concentration is key there. That's why you'll hear stories about how how much <hes> uranium you would need for a nuclear power plant versus one for refined refined uranium for a nuclear bomb. Now this reaction produces a lot of heat and it's the heat that's the key for these nuclear power plants that he usually usually through a paired system of pipes transfers to a boiler and the water in the boiler boils into steam and that steam then turns turbines lines which generate electricity so nuclear power plant is if you think about it really just a way to boil water really fast and really efficiently only coal power plants also boil water but obviously they do it through combustion rather than through a nuclear reaction so the interesting thing to me the as that the the part that generates the heat is different but the end result is very much the same in the sense that you're boiling water or to create steam turbines to generate electricity now. I'll not go down the nuclear power rabbit hole because there's much more talk about just with General Electric but if you want to learn more about nuclear power plants do a quick search over at tech stuff podcast dot com as where we have an archive of all of our past episodes you can also learn the difference between vision nuclear reactors which are what we use today and fusion nuclear reactors which we hope we can make feasible in in the near future. We have done fusion reactions already but the question is can you make that sustainable. Can you make it economically feasible. That's that's a question that we have not yet answered but if we are able to do it it could transform the world anyway the G. E. Facility which was called the Vallis Saito's nuclear centered it still exists. It was only an active power plant until nineteen sixty three at that point the federal government told ged shut it down <hes> so the boiler reactor was shut down in nineteen sixty three but gee maintains the facility mainly for the purposes of testing and analysis particularly testing radiated radiated materials to see how long they remain <hes> at dangerous levels of radiation for example so if you have instruments or the suits things like that that would exist. Radi- radiation in <hes> filled area you want to know how long does that stuff going to be dangerous. <hes> that's just part of what they do now. A major part of that facility <hes> one of the largest of the reactors on that site got shut down in nineteen seventy seven it was still being used for research purposes says but not to generate electricity. Why was it shut down. Well discovered that it had the unfortunate distinction of sitting nearly directly on top of a fault line line. There was a legitimate concern over what might happen should an earthquake hit while the reactor was an operation. There is still a small reactor on the side operates in the one hundred kilowatt range but that's the only one as far as I can tell <hes> otherwise all the other reactors have been completely decommissioned at shutdown. We've got a lot more to say about General Electric but before I get into that. Let's take a quick break. Today's Today's episode is brought to you by IBM. Technology is becoming more open data more accessible and the world more innovative. IBM is combining their industry expertise with the open source leadership of Red Hat to bring you more freedom more security or flexibility. Let's unlock the world's potential. Let's put smart to work learn more at IBM DOT dot com slash red hat the work out of GE's research lab was pretty incredible in the nineteen fifties as you have the nuclear scientists building that I licensed power plant to provide electricity to a grid you add synthetic diamonds and you had Robert H win TORP DWARF WHO created the substance called Borozan in the lab or zone is a man made substance. You don't find it in nature but it's almost as hard as diamond demand and it can be used in temperatures much higher that even diamonds can be used in diamonds will break down once you get over a certain temperature boras on can hold together longer so so it would also become a very useful component in industrial cutting tools for example now around the same time a different group of engineers were building something perhaps a little bit less. Salafi in the grand scheme of things but that would be the humble electric can opener g introduced. The first consumer electric can opener in nineteen fifty eight and pet ownership has never been the same sense in Nineteen fifty-nine g introduced the halogen lamp these work in <hes> way very similar to incandescent lamps. There's a tungsten filament inside a very small bulb and encasing the filament is a quartz envelope envelope inside the envelope is a gas from the halogen group of gases so this is different from what the gas would find in your typical incandescent bulb. The benefit of a halogen gas is that it can combine with Tungsten Vapor so when the tungsten filament heats up and it starts to give off light it's also giving off. Tungsten Vapor you know tongue says essentially burning off of the filament that vapor combined with the halogen gas and then it gets deposited back back onto the tungsten filament at least some of it does so some of that vaporize tungsten gets returned that actually helps extend the useful life of the Halogen Lamp Lamp Halogen Lamps can produce a lot more light per unit of energy compared to an incandescent bulb. They also produce a lot more heat and someone who has sadly a few halogen lamp fixtures in his house. I can speak from experiences. Those things get real hot. Guys like you will burn your fingers. I know I have anyway in nineteen sixty a device built by GE became the first man made object to be recovered after going into orbit around the earth it was code named by the RV to a re entry vehicle those part of the discoverer thirteen satellite right the discover thirteen satellite kind of set the stage for space-based reconnaissance and spy missions now granted that was not the public facing part of the mission. Obviously letting everyone know hey. This is a spy satellite is not the best plan. If you WANNA use it for you know spice stuff so there was a cover story in the cover story was essentially that it was a science experiment but in reality it was a classified mission that was overseen by both the Air Force and the CIA he I a. g. would go on to open up a space center in Valley Forge Pennsylvania in one thousand nine hundred sixty one because they were getting more and more involved in and building components for the space race also in nineteen sixty there was a guy named Jack Welsh who joined Ge as a chemical engineer. He'll he'll be really important later so remember that name. Jack Welsh we'll get back to it nineteen sixty two scientists from GE would develop one of the first solid state lasers using semiconductors interestingly scientists at IBM and over at Mit were independently doing the exact same thing and all the parties pretty much crack the problem right around the same time this set off a bit of a patent rush with G. beating IBM to the punch by a little more than a week. I just find it fascinating that the solid state laser was one of those things that multiple parties invented at around the same time independently a of each other but to be fair the stage had already been set with early work in Mazars and lasers so he's not the first lasers they were the first solid state ones solid state lasers would then find their way into numerous technologies and applications early on scientists theorize that they could be incredibly useful in communications but they would become so commonplace that we'd rely on them to play our tunes for us because the laser and stuff like CD players. DVD PLAYERS BLU ray players. Those are all solid estate lasers so what was truly cutting edge technology in nineteen sixty. Two is now so commonplace that you can go out and buy one and use it to frustrate your pets. You know you can just go get a little key chain with a solid state laser on it <hes> but I'm pretty sure back in nineteen sixty two. No one thought that that was going to be a future possibility. De Scientists were also working with superconductors and magnetism now. A conductor is a material that allows electrons to pass through it conducts electricity. A superconductor is a material that does this with no resistance to the flow of electricity so under normal conditions conductors have a bit of resistance to electricity atrocity in the amount of resistance is dependent upon several factors like how what the actual material is. What is the conductive material also its thickness org gauge so a thin copper wire for example has higher resistance than a thick copper cable. They're both made of the same thing but the physical structure structure is different and that changes the resistance of the material. GE's superconducting magnet was the first to break through the one hundred thousand costs limit limit. The Gos- is a unit of measurement for magnetic flux density. I'll give you the technical definition of Gos- as laid out by the Encyclopedia Media Britannica so here we go one gos- quote corresponds to the magnetic flux density that will induce an electro motive force of one AB volt in each linear centimeter of a wire moving laterally at one centimeter per second at right angles to a magnetic flux into quote okay so that's a bit of a mouthful anyway we rate magnets in Gos- that's how we measure their strength so jeeze superconducting magnet was incredibly ably powerful it would also lay the foundation for practical applications of that type of a magnet particularly in the creation of magnetic resonance imaging Technologies Angie would play a very important role in developing that technology or the MRI as we would say <hes> very important part of GS business one of the fun VACs. I discovered while researching these episodes is that the footprints that the Apollo Eleven astronauts left on the moon are there in thanks to GE specifically specifically the boots worn by the astronauts had silicone rubber in them that had been manufactured by GE so that's G. E. footprint up there in a way but that it was just one of the contributions Ge made to the Apollo Program. I don't want to discount or dismiss any of the other ones that the company made they actually provided a lot of technology analogy to the space program. General Electric was involved in designing or manufacturing several systems related to the space race including the ship to satellite communications system that allowed the Apollo crew to send TV images from the capsule two satellites orbiting the Earth which in turn being those images down to terrestrial stations in nineteen seventy-three three another GE researcher Dr Ivar Giver. Would get a Nobel prize he had back in nineteen sixty discovered the truly odd behavior savior of superconducting tunneling so what the heck is tunneling well it all has to do with the weird world of quantum mechanics and quantum physics so oh when I was in school we learned that electrons orbit the nucleus of atoms in a certain energy state and electrons would quote unquote want to occupy by the lowest energy state available once that energy state was full of electrons then the next electrons would fill up the next available state further out from the nucleus and so on and so on until you had all the electrons that that particular Adam would have whether it was a base version of the atom or an ion or whatever this was a pretty big simplification of what is actually going on then in my books. I remember seeing the old illustrations we had newer ones too but I remember those old. All illustrations has made it look like an electron with sort of like a planet orbiting around a Sun like nucleus so in other words according to those illustrations it would appear that an electron electron has a specific position around the nucleus that you could measure detect and predict but as scientists would later learn we could really only determine partial information mation about a subatomic particles velocity and location the more we knew about one of those two things the less we would know about the other so the more you know about particle velocity. The less you know about its position. The more you know about S- position the less you know about blossomed so really we don't know whether electronic quote unquote is is an up in a specific place we see we know where it can be the various positions where the electron could possibly be found. C can think of it as kind of a zone of probability or field of probability. There's a chance the electron will be at any of those points within that field it has to be within the field unless you've poured more energy into the atom and thus pushed the electron out but it has to be somewhere in that field. You just don't know where it is so it's Kinda this amorphous fog that the electron could inhabit now if you have a situation in which this field this imaginary Mary field because we don't actually have a fog here but if this field spans a barrier that normally you would have to use energy to get across it means that the there's actually a possibility that the electron could appear on the other side of that barrier so imagine you have a hallway and there's a door closed at the end of the hallway and you have this electron field and the electron field actually overlaps the door to the point where part of the field extends to the other side of the closed door then you would expect the electron to be in the hallway. You didn't open the door. You saw the electron go into the hallway. You figure that's where it's got to be but because that field overlaps the door there is the possibility that the electron could be on the other side and because there's a possibility ability means that sometimes there will be an electron on the other side of that door and it's as if the electron has tunneled through or climbed over the door but at no no time. Did it ever have to expend energy to do that. It just appeared on the other side. This is tunneling and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to us because that's not how we observe things in our normal world. You don't go down a hallway and suddenly little Jimmy is just on the other side of the door because there was a chance little Jimmy was going to be there. That doesn't happen been in our real world but in quantum physics it's totes thing as one of the reasons why developing microchips was smaller and smaller components becomes a really. Lee huge challenge because electron tunneling is a problem if you're determined to channel electrons down specific pathways as is the case with a circuit then then you run into an issue if an electron can encounter a gate the gate is closed but because of electron tunneling there's the possibility of the electron appearing hearing on the other side of the gate. It means that you can create errors this way anyway. Let's get back to. GE's time line in Nineteen seventy eight GE's medical medical systems division developed an improved method for taking x Ray cross-section pictures which reduced the scanning time down to less than five seconds which was an enormous miss improvement. A huge leap forward in the patient's wouldn't have to sit still for as long to get a cross section x Ray done no. I'm reminded of a time when I had to get an x ray done. I was having a kidney stone and that was painful. It was so painful that just trying to stay still was a huge challenge for me and it was technology like this this breakthrough. I was just talking about that made. Those sort of x ray scans much faster much more efficient and reduce blurring learning so that if the patient were moving because the scanning took so so little time there was a better chance to get a nice clear picture otherwise obviously if the patient moves while the picture is being taken. You're going to get blur so I'm very thankful that GE was able to make xrays much more efficient and take less time. GE celebrated one Hundred Years of innovation in nineteen seventy eight which might be a little confusing at first because General Electric Company was founded in eighteen ninety a two not eighteen seventy eight however g also traces its historical roots back to an earlier company if you listen to the first episode you know about that Edison Edison Electric Light Company that one began in eighteen seventy eight according to time line on the GE website specifically timely that's on GE's website in India. Ah The company states that in nineteen seventy eight g became the first company to have received fifty thousand patents wow while the company continued to diversify versa Fai and work in various industries a big change was around the corner and that change happened in nineteen eighty one when Jack Welsh that chemical engineer I mentioned earlier would become on the company's youngest chairman and CEO he replaced the outgoing CEO which was a guy named Reginald h Jones welches tenure is an incredibly important one in the history of Ge so I figured it'd be good to get a little background on the man I he was born in peabody Massachusetts in nineteen thirty five. His father was a railroad conductor doctor. Jack Welsh would grow up in Salem Massachusetts and as a kid he loved playing sports he really loved winning and he despised losing that'd be a fundamental part of his character would carry over to his work at GE he received a bachelor's degree in chemistry from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and he received his Masters and his PhD the University of Illinois Champaign upon graduating in got a job at GE and he worked in their plastics division and he nearly quit his job. Bob After just a short while he felt that jeeze organization was too cumbersome. Those filled with middle management positions bloated any felt his own work wasn't being valued valued properly but an executive named Ruben got off convinced Welsh to stay with the company so he did then he would end up leading the plastic division after working there for a while then he moved onto other executive roles he oversaw the chemical and Metallurgical Division <hes> then he headed up. Ge Strategic Planning then he became a sector sector executive for the Consumer Products Division and despite all of that he wasn't first and foremost in the minds of the board of directors who are looking to fill bill that position of of CEO when we come back. I'll talk a little bit more about how he got his position and what he did with it but first. Let's take another quick break. Support for tech stuff comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken. Loans home is so much more than a house. It's your own little little slice of heaven. That's why when you find the perfect place for you and your family. Getting a mortgage shouldn't get in the way imagine how it feels to have an award winning team gene by your side through every step of the mortgage process. It's awesome and exactly what you get with rocket mortgage by quicken loans their team mortgage experts. It's is obsessed with finding a better way which means that their number one goal is to make the home buying process smoother for you in fact rocket mortgage gauges there with award winning client service and support every step of the way quicken loans has helped millions of Americans achieve their dream of home ownership and when when you're ready to purchase the home of your dreams they can help you to visit rocket mortgage dot com slash tech stuff and take the first step toward the home of your dreams equal housing lender licensed in L. S. consumer access dot Org number thirty thirty rocket mortgage by quicken loans push-button get mortgage. Let let me tell you about Pete who loved hockey and always wanted to play in the NHL Pete played since he was three and begged his mom to let him stay on the ice by some nights. What's he even slept in his hockey skates? Pete practiced and practiced until one day when he was forty-seven Pete realized he just wasn't that good so he threw his skates in the trash but then you heard how Gyco proud partner of the NHL good save money on car insurance so he switched and saved a bunch so it all worked out the Welsh was just one of seven people under consideration for the role of GE CEO in nineteen eighteen eighty one he didn't even have a formalized plan for where he wanted the company to go but he did have the determination to lead G to being the number one company in every every industry in which GE had presence this was enough to convince the Board to name him CEO and his first moves were really to streamline G. E. EH while he had risen through the ranks in his decades at General Electric. He still felt that the company was bloated that opinion had not changed even though he had gone from from being an engineer an executive at the time he assumed the position of CEO GE was a mega giant consisting of three hundred different different businesses and Welsh saw that as a problem because how could you focus and be the absolute best when your presence is spread so thin across so so many businesses and so began to consolidate departments he began to sell off divisions trimming the fat part of that meant laying off employees and Welsh did that too. He did that a lot by the mid nineteen eighty s just a few years after he had become CEO G had laid off around one hundred twenty thousand employees. This is hard for me to even imagine the town I grew up in has a population of around forty thousand people people today. Ge Laid off three times as many people as were in my home town. That's tough for me to even imagine the layoffs earned Welsh a nickname neutron jack because he was like a neutron bomb going off in the company he would eliminate employees while leaving the corporate assets intact the neutron bomb is thought of as the same thing so sort of bond that can kill living stuff and leave physical infrastructure untouched. Welsh hated did this nickname it was a pretty cut throat and brutal strategy but Welsh was pretty much demanding that approach he wanted to get l. of any business where g did not occupy the number one or number two spot in the industry. If G were further behind that he would rather ditch that part part of the business than to continue to just sort of muddle along made little sense he said to be in businesses were other companies could go to market selling stuff cheaper for them what it costs. Ge to manufacture those same things in the first place so he gave an example of this. He's talked about television sets in Schenectady New York. They were still making making television sets when Jack Welsh took over ge but Welsh said that Japanese companies were selling TV sets for less money to the final customer than it would cost ged manufacturer set so Japanese television set might sell for one hundred dollars and might cost one hundred ten dollars for GE to even make a TV set. There was no way to compete in that space and at all make a profit so it made no sense to keep the business he preferred focusing focusing the company's efforts on industries where they could outperform their competitors rather than remain in business just to have a foot in the door through eliminating divisions selling off businesses says an through laying off thousands of employees the company ended up saving a lot of money to the tune of billions of dollars and Welsh wasn't just it's going to sit on those savings he looked to reinvest in the company and as far that he was looking for a possible acquisition and decided upon an old familiar her name that name was RCA now if you listen to the earlier GE episodes or if you listen to my RCA episodes you'll remember that general all electric was one of the founding companies that created RCA in the first place G. E. was also the majority shareholder until it was compelled to sell off those tares of RCA along with the other founders this was because the United States government at the time had antitrust concerns about the radio industry will the merger of GE and RCA was a six point three billion dollar deal which was the largest in history at that point and Welsh took the same approach to RCA as he had to g e namely he began hacking away at businesses. He viewed as being distractions so within three years of this deal Welsh had reduced the number of RCA employees employees to half of what they once were he oversaw RCA selling off. Almost all of its businesses really only two remained. One was the defense it's business that RCA would do for the US military and also for NASA the other was the NBC television network so this was the time when GE would own NBC was the subject of the become a frequent plot point on the TV series thirty rock. It's also an RCA effectively just became name. It was no longer the company at once was so if you listen to the RCA episodes this is pretty much at the point where the RCA story ended working for a Welsh was really tough if you're really good at your job and your job was in a division that Welsh viewed as being central GE's mission. You had decent job job. Security Welsh had employees go through regular performance reviews and the employees who are in the top twenty percent would get bonuses. Those who are in the bottom ten percent were likely to get fired and holy cats did his strategy push. Ge To new heights the company became known as the House that Jack Built the stock price for GE rose four thousand percent meanwhile the company was still churning out innovations such as groundbreaking work and fiber optics and magnetic resonance imaging systems the company also launched the Consumer News and Business Channel or see NBC in nineteen eighty nine so it wasn't just a powerful company in industry. It was now also becoming a powerful media company one other area. Welsh pushed ge into to was financial services with GE capital. Welsh lead acquisition efforts to buy foreign banks and also would become a major insurance provider. These services were at the time remarkably profitable in fact. That's an understatement when Welsh took over Ge. The company's value was fourteen eighteen billion dollars by the time Welsh would retire in two thousand one. The company's value was in excess of four hundred ten billion dollars and a large part that was due to the profitability of the financial services during that time. Also we have to say that when this happened it was a brilliant move from a business perspective. I pushed G. E. new heights and it made Welsh a very wealthy man it would also end up being the major pain point for GE's several years later that I'm going to get to that in our next episode as it begins to play into the more recent allegations about GE and its accounting practices but before we get to those dark tidings let's finish up with some of the things that the company was doing under. Welch's command in Nineteen ninety-two. Ge through its RCA space division delivered the Mars Observer Server to NASA. It'd been seventeen years since NASA had sent a spacecraft to study Mars so the intent was to launch the Mars Observer and inserted into an orbit around the Red Planet. The Mars Observer had instruments meant to study the climate geophysics and geology of Mars. The launch went off beautifully on September Twenty Fifth Nineteen Ninety two the orbiter began its long journey to Mars that would take nearly a full year and on August Twenty First Nineteen Ninety three just a couple of days before the orbiter was meant to officially enter Mars orbit all communication was lost between the spacecraft and Earth Nasa Asa was unable to reestablish contact so the mission was ultimately a failure though NASA was at least able to learn some things through the process of sending the orbiter to Mars in the first place but none of the primary mission objectives were achieved in Nineteen ninety-six in another move to dominate media NBC and Microsoft Partner Partner to gather to launch the twenty four hour news channel Msnbc in Nineteen Ninety eight GE began to adhere to a quality control strategy called called six sigma which calls for fewer than three defects per million opportunities now to achieve that goal GE would spend millions of dollars on training winning and new production processes so it was a very expensive and time consuming effort but welches view was that it would ultimately benefit the company and resulted all in massive savings fewer defects would mean less waste the first product from GE to go through this process was a medical scanner called delight speed q x slash. I C T system in nineteen ninety nine G. E secured a contract with Boeing to build massive powerful jet engines for Boeing's seven seventy seven line of jets the company produced the GE Ninety family now. This is not the only type of engine used on a seventy seven. There's a whole bunch of different variations of the seven seventy seven and some of them use engines from other companies so it all depends upon the version of the seventy seven year looking at but it is the largest and most powerful jet engine produced to date in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine G. E opened a new research lab. This one is called. Ge Global Research. It's located in Bangalore India and this marked effort for gene do not just expand its overseas markets which it had been doing for the previous decades but also to attract new talent in the field of technology talent that wasn't just located in Europe or the United States in two thousand the company unveiled. DTM Twenty five hundred which is a power plant plant on wheels. It's a gas turbine. Generator that can supply twenty two point eight megawatts of electricity takes a couple of days to setup once it's on location and it's used for for lots of different purposes including a way to supply electricity to areas that have been affected by natural disasters gas turbines by the way work in a very similar way to jet engines. You've got a compressor that draws air into the engine the air gets compressed and that's what a compressor does and then enters into the combustion chamber where it combines with fuel from fuel injectors this mixture gets ignited and then it burns very high temperature generates high temperature high pressure gas the gas moves out of the combustion and chamber into a turbine section. That's where the guests can expand an escape and as it does though the force of that escaping expanding gas turns a turbine the Turbine Irvine does two things one that drives the compressor so it pulls in more air and thus keeps the process going as long as you have fuelled burn and it also spins a generator to create electricity atrocity. Jack Welsh plan to retire from GE in two thousand but one thing kept him around a little bit longer. That thing was a prize Welsh really really wanted for. Ge knows a company called Honeywell International now honeywell makes advanced electronics for the nation industry among other things and Welsh led a a forty billion dollar plus acquisition effort to get this company he knew that Honeywell had another suitor that of United Technologies Corporation and and he added a promise to honeywell that he would stay on with GE until this acquisition was complete he would delay his retirement until two thousand one so they decided they would pursue this acquisition deal and things were going pretty well. The United States seem fully on board but then you get to the summer of two thousand one and that's when European regulators realtors expressed concern that this merger would stifle competition in the industry Welsh reportedly reached out to US government officials to see if anything could be done to smooth things things out and get the deal approved this had the effect of royally ticking off those regulators and ultimately the European Union denied authorization for for this merger and the deal fell apart Welsh who hated losing lost this one the CEO Honeywell Michael Bonsignore was shown own the door not long after the deal was scrapped and Welsh would continue on toward his retirement. Jack Welsh stepped down as CEO of GE on September seven with two thousand one his replacement would be Jeffrey r immelt and just four days after immelt would take the helm of GE the terrorist terrorist attacks on the United States on September eleventh would change the company's course. We'll talk about how that happened in our next episode in the meantime meantime if you have a suggestion for future episode of text up whether it's a company technology just a concept in tech anything like that. Let me know you can send me an email. The addresses tech stuff at how stuff works DOT COM or pump over to tech stuff PODCASTS DOT com. That's we're GONNA find the archive of all of our past episodes all all one thousand one hundred sixty plus of them and you'll also find links to where we are on social media as well as a link to our online store where every purchase you make goes to help the show we greatly appreciate it and I'll tell you again. Releasing tech stuff is a production of iheartradio's house stuff ones for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite it shows the heart of fantasy football draft season and the fantasy football weekly weekly podcast is here to make sure you dominate your draft so thoroughly you leave your opponents reconsidering several their life choices particularly playing fantasy football against you fantasy that is football weekly as the world's longest running fantasy sports show and it's now the podcast that crushes your league with deep data dives and unique insights every weekend you can find fantasy football weekly on. Apple podcasts are on the iheartradio APP or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Thursdays Houston Matters: Why The Chinese Consulate Was Closed, And An American History Do-Over (July 23, 2020)

Houston Matters

53:39 min | 6 months ago

Thursdays Houston Matters: Why The Chinese Consulate Was Closed, And An American History Do-Over (July 23, 2020)

"Well Tis the season. Wet weather and the threat of flooding is headed our way this weekend. Courtesy of a tropical depression that may soon be confirmed as tropical storm Anna. I'm Craig. Cohen Today on Houston matters the latest word from the national. Weather Service on the potential for significant rainfall across greater Houston Friday and throughout the weekend also this hour we dig into why the trump administration suddenly ordered Houston's Chinese consulate closed and what it means for. For Houston in terms of security and trade a local international studies expert weighs in then in American History Oh. Ver- imagine no statues, no monuments history books in museums blank canvases, who are the figures from American history? You'd like to see featured more prominently. Let us know at talk. At Houston Matters Dot Org plus socializing a socially distant world through video games and planning a performing arts season when you can't guarantee the audience first this hours news. Good Morning. This is Houston matters I'm. Craig Cohen coming up the latest on the Chinese consulate closure and a storm headed our way also in American history, do over socializing socializing and a socially distant world through video games and planning a performing arts season, when you can't guarantee an audience, but I we say hello to news eighty, eight seven Eddie Robinson, who's here with the latest Covid, Nineteen News and other developments in Greater, Houston. Houston Good Morning. Eddie Good Morning Craig in new covid nineteen hospitalizations in the Houston area continue to slow down the Texas Medical Center had five percent fewer patients on Tuesday than they did at the same time last week, but even with that slight easing Caseload Craig the Medical Center is well in a face to search plan. TMZ officials report one thousand, one hundred fifty five deaths. Deal the virus here in the Houston area. Yesterday during oppressor, local health officials say they're hearing accounts from workers who think that they have covert nineteen, still being told to come into work until results come back that the test results positive cities leading health. Authority Dr David. Purse responded to those reports saying he doesn't recommend businesses. Take that route. Reminding employers that test results do have lag time in that. If someone thinks they're infected, it's best to just wait until those results turn up negative and that person isn't sick. Alright, statewide more and more patients. KRUEGER STARTING TO USE UP A. A lot of states hospital capacity eighty-one percent of Texas. Hospital beds are currently in use. Nineteen percent of beds are used by cove at thousand nine patients right now. Nearly ten thousand nine hundred Texans are in the hospital for Covid nineteen. Now let's talk about the death. Now. Over forty three hundred Texans have passed away due to the virus and just yesterday alone. State health officials added nearly two hundred deaths to that total, but health authorities are reporting that cross Texas nearly two hundred thousand patients have been recovering from the virus Greg. Thank you very much Ed. News Idiots Sevens Eddie Robinson. Let's dive further now. Into the sudden closure this week of the Chinese consulate here in Houston the trump administration's decision seemingly out of the blue order it close to. Protect American intellectual property in Americans private information coupled with video of documents, being burned in the consulate's courtyard, sparked renewed speculation about whether how and where the Chinese government might be spying in Houston and other questions why it's just the consulate here and not in, Say New York or La that's being closed. And what does this all mean for an already fractured and declining trade relationship Dr Hans? Stockton is an expert on Chinese relations and a professor and chair of International. Studies at the University of Saint Thomas Dr Stockton, Good Morning Welcome to the program. Good Morning. Thank you for having me on. Do we know anymore about why? The Chinese consulate was ordered closed this week here in Houston. Well in the last twenty four hours there have been some published reports indicating a more localized act well accusations of more localized espionage efforts. Related to the Texas medical, center. As well as an incident recently at Intercontinental Airport. obviously the this fits into the broader trump administration. Push back against China in so many different ways. And as I understand the Justice Department released an indictment on Tuesday against a pair of suspected Chinese hackers, alleging that they targeted American companies conducting covid nineteen research while we can't necessarily say that's a directly connected to this move here. We do have a a number of area hospitals. And health organizations that are conducting that kind of research Houston Methodist Baylor, College of Medicine Utm Galveston. They're all doing that work. But so do medical researchers all across the country so again a. why do you think maybe it's the focus is here in Houston? Well there there are a couple of factors that I don't think Most of us are all that privy to particular detail. one is more sensational in that is hard evidence that the consulate here in Houston in particular was serving as a hub for espionage and a influence operations So that's that's certainly would be one signal, but as well and and less sensational is the very orderly world of the see normally, and that is if you're going to send a diplomatic message like this, you don't want. Want to necessarily start with the New York office or the La Office you find consulate of of the different type of certain scale size to send the signal, because we should certainly expect to have very soon. The Chinese retaliation and we don't want them closing our Shanghai consulate or or some other You know particular consulate in so expecting that retaliation. Then we start at a lower level so to speak and we don't lose bigger pieces of our own in China have we heard anything from the Chinese government thus far? You know at this point I've yet to discover much. Although there is a great deal of speculation in China and Chinese media that the chump to American Consulate. Would be the most likely closure. Is it common for the Federal Government to order the closure of the consulate. Does this come up? Very often. Now this this is a very rare circumstance Obviously you've know we've all seen references to the old Cold War. Strategies, but I believe the last time the United States close to foreign consulate was the trump administration and twenty seventeen, closing the Russian consulate in San Francisco, so it's extremely rare I'd believe that is unprecedented and US China relations since the opening of relations in Nineteen, seventy nine. Is it typical to see a in such? A circumstance files burned like we saw a video of in the Chinese consulate. Well. Certainly, if you, if you only give someone seventy two hours to vacate the premises, you know the the the notion that this this is a particular Chinese tactic That's a bit overblown. consulates anywhere in the world that feel they cannot safely remove information from the physical space. would be burning those documents as well and. When the announcement comes about which American Consulate in China will be closed we certainly might see the same kind of response. I mentioned trade. China is still a huge trade partner with the United States billions of dollars. Worth of that trade goes through Houston in fact. China's the second largest trade partner sending goods and services in and out of Houston after Mexico. But these are amounts that we're talking about. That have been declining last couple of years. Could we see retaliation in the form of Reduced Trade Well certainly that that could that that is going. Do I believe Continue If we maintain the current tracks, but whether or not it's directly linked to this particular moment and incident or the broader landscape of US China. Rivalry might also be a little little difficult to to pick apart There will be call it indirect economic consequence because of the disruption, the closure of this consulate, symbol or manifest for the entire South and southeast of the United States all that paperwork. All those visas are not going to be processed right now. and we'll wait to see when those processes might continue, time is money, and and so there's going to be an economic consequence. talking about these accusations of spying being potentially connected to medical research, but Houston is home to A. Of, potentially sensitive targets for spying and hacking, not just medical research, but also energy companies aerospace other industries. Should all of them be on as much alert as ever about their respective efforts to provide security when it comes to potentially sensitive information. Well I think these days all all companies. All entities that have proprietary information should be on on guard constantly, not just against the you know for a particular foreign power, but domestic cyber hacking as well so You Know Medical Center NASA, but then again don't forget right. This consulate serves of you know eight states in the South and southeast region, so Atlanta is a major hub of a of interest From Houston to to Florida so again, we you know it's it's a standard practice. Corporations and entities should just be safe. You mentioned the the potential ripple effects here for folks that would typically need to. Conduct, some business do something received some approvals from the Chinese consulate. Chinese Americans that might want to visit family or friends or something like that. How much of an impact ultimately could this have not just on the Houston area? But as he said the entire South West. Well. That's the that's the sad and human part of this disruption that the closure represents You know folks that have friends family in China here in the US, travel back-and-forth, not just business for business, sake you know, and how and how quickly the Chinese government redirects the thousands of visa applications they receive is is to be seen whether it's through the embassy, or other consulates, and so we'll were we just have to wait to see that we have a question email from high in the height suit wanted to know whether this closure is temporary or permanent. Is that something we would know for sure? At this point in time we we simply don't know that obviously you know. We wanted to be optimistic about diplomatic relationship reopening that consulate would be an important signal at some point, but We're not going to see that anytime soon. given the pattern of of behavior from the trump administration. Dr Hans Stockton is a professor and chair of International. Studies at the University of Saint Thomas Dr Stockton thanks very much. Thank you. We're of course keeping a close eye on that tropical depression that could strengthen into a tropical storm as it heads are way in the coming days. What may become tropical storm Hanna is actually one of two tropical disturbances. The National Weather Service is tracking. To walk through really a little bit of both, but especially what may become Hannah? We're joined now by meteorologist lance would from the National Weather Service's Houston Galveston Office Lance Good Morning. Good Morning Craig, what's the latest word on this system? That's headed our way. Well. We've been watching a tropical depression eight pretty closely since yesterday, as began to get a little bit better organized, and we think that that trend will continue where it gradually. Gets a little bit more organized and a little bit more strength into a tropical storm probably tomorrow as it begins to approach the Texas coast. When and where will it make landfall? Right now it looks like the mid Texas coast Obviously, there's still uncertainty in that especially since it's not that well organized you. See if you kinda notice the watch, go from South Texas all the way to the upper coast, so we're still kind of watching that, but yeah, we think most likely that mid, Texas, coast, maybe just south Matagorda Bay, what speed is it moving at now? What are you anticipating as it closes in on the coastline? He speed probably won't change a lot. It could pick up a little bit. It's about nine miles per hour. So that's kind of a moderate moving tropical system, not particularly slow or fast, and we don't. We don't see this one slowing down or stalling, so should stay kind of in that range around ten miles an hour. How strong might it be when it reaches the Greater Houston area? Yeah well right now. The Houston area may may or may not see some weak tropical storm force winds. It would be more likely on you know the very southeast side towards the Bay near the water but you know the track stay well south of the city, because sort of on the fringe of some of the impacts, so we're still watching that, but as far as timing looks like landfall would most likely be on. Saturday and impacts would would start arriving and rain bands kind of late Friday. Are we likely to be on the dirty side of the storm? Yeah, we're definitely going to be on the east North East sides. The rain bands are very likely. It's just The winds may stay fairly small system, so the winds are Kinda questionable as to. If we'll actually you know, see tropical storm force winds as far north. So that's kind of lower watching right now. What sort of rainfall might we expect and when? Yeah Good Question I. Think for the Houston area. Probably one to three inches I you get as you get closer to the coast. No could see five or six inches long immediate coast, so it'll definitely taper off the further inland you get in south, east Texas and again those rain bands probably start impacting the coast Kinda late Friday Friday evening. Meantime, there's still a another system out there tropical storm Gonzalo. Where is it? Yeah, it's way out there, so it's it's well well to the east of the Windward Islands, and they just issued some hurricane watches, so it's about you know two days a day, and a half to two days out from Barbados, and some of those southern, when islands there in the kind of the extreme eastern Caribbean so nowhere near US and not likely to track anywhere near US, right. No I mean it's one to watch. the model guidance has having kind kind of all over the place in the Caribbean as far as down the road early next week you know, does it end up near Haiti and remain a hurricane, or does it just dissipate in the central Caribbean? which is the possibility so right now? The Hurricane Center's forecast is kind of between those possibilities as decreasing to a tropical storm, so an increase to hurricane, probably later today, and then a decrease to a tropical storm once in central Caribbean kind of is the forecast. Right so that's Gonzalo. Hannah's the one we're watching. It's headed our way. Is it unusual to already be up to our eighth tropical depression? Slash Storm. or at least storm to be in mid July. It is I believe it's the first time it's happened while we've been recording these things so yeah, that's significant. Fortunately, most of our tropical systems this year have been on the weaker side Let's hope that continues right, but. That's a lot out there. Does this. Tell us anything about if not the strength of this hurricane season so far the strength of the storms the just the quantity that we might be seeing the rest of the summer. Yeah I mean. We anticipate given the conditions that we've been monitoring overall for the Atlantic Basin which includes the Atlantic and the Gulf and the Caribbean It should be an active year so we we think it'll. Activity will will continue to. You know to be active so probably above normal numbers even august-september going Dr. Sounds like Hannah is maybe not going to be anything that we would characterize his devastating, but could could yield some flooding and more significant rainfall for south of Houston. It's worth reminding everyone sorta the basic precautions that we should be taking. Not just in preparation for Hannah, but just in general when when these storms find their way towards us. Yeah. It's a good reminder that we're. We're nearing the more active time of hurricane season and I do think you're right. What will likely be Hannah that the main impact is going to be heavy rainfall in? Houston is going to be kind of on the fringe of the northern fringe of that threat. Lahood is a meteorologist with the National Weather Service Houston Galveston Office Lance. Thanks very much. Thank you appreciate it. Up next an American history do over imagine. All statues and monuments are gone. The history books a blank canvas. You can start from scratch. Who Do you highlight I from us? History and Y who hasn't been recognized at all or enough for their contributions should be. Let us know talk at Houston Matters Dot Org or call seven, three, four, four, zero, eight seventy. Stay with US IS HOUSTON matters continues. This is Houston matters I'm Craig Cohen. Ever play kickball in school I remember when when my classmates was accused of throwing spinners, we'd all yell. Do overdo over well now. We're going to engage in a little. Do over exercise in American history, imagine for a moment that there were no statues. Anywhere all history books, all paintings photographs everything a blank canvas, waiting to be filled in the history is the same, but how we teach it remember it honor, it is entirely up to us with none of the baggage of the last two hundred years of how it's been taught. Who would you honor I who would get more attention than maybe typically has gotten. Who would you start with? With if you wanted to do a better job of reflecting the whole of American history put another way who are some figures who have made their mark in the history of the United States but haven't gotten the credit they deserve. Let us know now at seven, one, three, four, four, zero, eight, thousand, eight, hundred seventy, or you can email us at talk at Houston. Matters Dot Org. And just a few minutes we'll be joined by Dr Vita Robinson Director of the Center for Critical Race Studies at the University of Houston downtown. Joining us now is Dr Elizabeth Gregory Professor of English and director of Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies at the University of Houston Dr. Gregory Welcome back to Houston matters. Be here glad to have you with us. We asked you to come up with some names of historical figures from American history. You believe should be highlighted more. And I wanted to maybe walk through a few of them. Noting that you came up with some that are national figures in some that specifically you to highlight from Houston, but let's start with some of those national figures and I saw that you broke them down into some categories. In particular you wanted to highlight abolitionists and suffragettes. Can you tell us about a few of them? Well, the dynamic in. Recently has been one of bringing up a lot of questions about who has been honored. And standardly been people in power, so a lot of the current current discussion is about how to recognize all the people who have been pushed aside. And left out of those discussions and a lot of those people were activists right people who were trying to transform the situation so nationally. There's a lot of discussion of suffrage this year because it's the one hundredth anniversary of the nineteenth amendment. This twenty six, so there'd be a lot of celebration so that that long struggle for suffrage overlapped with the just struggle for abolition and a lot of. activists women were involved. Walk White women as well as men across the nineteenth century, so people like Sojourner, truth and The Katie Stanton. and. Susan the Anthony are the. Ones who are being? Currently worked on for a statue in Central Park so there's been this huge discussion as you know. In New York City about statues and they've actually had votes the city about who should be represented because there's been so much discussion of the misrepresentation in the rule that statues plays where they don't just represent. Historical figures, but they then reinforce a sense of who is important for the next generations, so. The question of what does that you do? Does it just represent a you know what's the past or is? It actually enacted force in the ball to the present, but the future is part of this wider discussion so. overlook that discussion in terms of you know. What do people want to represent a blank slate? The issue is so complicated because a lot of people have specifically not been allowed to participate in a way that would give them the public stature to be recognized, so there's room for recognition of people weren't recognized in not much individuals, but whole groups of people so just the way we think about history is something that we as a group are discussing, but in in the. Your context, you know they have statue of Harriet Tubman. Alderson's since two thousand and eight, and then they're putting in. Per those votes Six statues and be seven. AH people like Shirley. Chisholm Billie holiday big figures from the past I was active in trying to get a statue of a poet called for Moore. Who was a suffrage? Just and was kind of. figure. In your. Or stressing modernist poet. and mall interest in that dynamic was the CI herself wrote about the dynamics of what is popularity and what is. You know public stature. There was a lot of what she reflected on her work Parks worked in that dynamic, so there's so many parts to this Of Fascinating about this moment we're all sitting together. In recognizing that the we monuments function is inadequate and WanNa, think about it again, just coming up with figures from the past that are problematic and they're always because they represent that asked. either because they are like a very small. People who might have enabled to evade privilege people who might have been able to filter to the top in that context or just because there isn't a real representation. So it's a really fascinating moment as a discussion. Also joining us is Dr Vita Robertson Director of the Center for Critical Race Studies at the University of Houston downtown Dr. Robertson Welcome to the program. Thank you sir. And we were just talking a little bit about abolitionist and suffragettes like Sojourner, truth Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Katie Stanton. Couple of whom were some of the figures that you suggest. Are. Figures for American history that you think should be highlighted more among the list that you provided though also were some. A name or two that were maybe we know a little bit more from more recent history in particular I, noted that you suggested Sandra Day O'Connor the. Supreme Court justices someone who should get more consideration, maybe a little more attention than she has. Can you tell us a little bit as to why? Well I, think as my colleague beautifully pointed out that if we race the idea that our monuments memorials have an important role in our American society, because they become a me, a vehicle or mechanism for projecting onto future generations, the aspiration, the endeavors that we believe are most important to our American. Society being Sandra Day O'Connor as the first female Supreme Court justice I going to serve a very important role, because number one more than half of our population our our sisters are women, and and the fact that they have been systematically and historically. Historically left out of our record. And the contributions of our country ends up. Being an important ends up being an important discrepancy in the way that we understand ourselves as a nation and so the the the the the the intellectual gravity of Saint Day O'Connor her contribution of the questions that you raised in the Supreme Court and the advocacy that she would have for her. Her Sisters of the nation are is going to be really important in the way that we both understand our sales in the judicial system that governs us. Dr Robert San. You also suggested a couple of categories of people who should be remembered for their contributions during. The first and Second World Wars. Can you talk a little bit about the Harlem Hell fighters and the Navajo Code Talkers? Yes. That's an excellent question. Thank you for that In world, war one doctor W E.. Voice again. WHO's worth? Incredible renowned as American sociologist, a political activist, the founder of the N. Double ACP. He's going to be instrumental in helping organize African Americans during one of the most turbulent times, our nation's history as we are in. One in organizing African, Americans, to in the three, hundred and Sixty Ninth Regiment, and these Harlem, hell fighters often under equipped in World War One because many of their white colleagues didn't trust them to have arms during the war, are going to be utilized primarily by the French at first because the French needed help, and they're going to go into some of the most gallant most successful in most utilized forces that. that. It's the French who are going to say to we Americans. These men fight like men straight Outta hell, and it is because of their gallantry because of bravery, because of their incredible contribution that we as a nation as well as the allied forces are going to be successful in world. Two are native. American brothers and sisters are going you an incredible service to us as a nation that the Navajo code talkers. To allow us to encrypt our messages to organize our horses into implement the execution of our plans in such a way that the that our enemies would never be able to decipher the workings. Of Our military institution, and so it would put themselves in great danger they would place themselves and incredible peril for the nation for this beautiful nation that we call the United States and so when we think about again groups who have been historically left out of our American conversation, whose contributions have been diminished because of part of our racist past. It's going to be very important that that these marginalized Americans have their place not only in our history, but. A future where all of us are equal. This is Houston matters. I'm Craig Cohen and we're talking with Dr Vita Robertson from the Center for Critical Race Studies at uh, downtown and Dr Elizabeth Gregory from the Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies Program at the University of Houston about figures in US, history that they think should be honored, recognized or remembered more perhaps as that next generation of statues or monuments or more prominently in history books. We'd like to hear your suggestions. Get Short Shrift in American history, but shouldn't let us know at talk at Houston Matters Dot, org or seven, one, three, four, four, zero, Eighty, eight seventy Dr Gregory. We have a tweet from Ethan and. Ethan raises a name that you also wanted to bring up, Ethan asks. How do we not have a statue of Barbara Jordan here in Houston? Totally? That is One of the first in line I would think if Discussing local heroes and heroines to represent Barbara Jordan definitely deserves representation and There are a number of other people. If we're considering local statutes that would be an interesting conversation to have is the city In the in the third ward, my favorite poets is Pat Parker who has? Much too little renown here in Houston, she left to go to college in California. But she kept writing about Texas for the rest of her life and wonderful poems. very hard hitting as well as humorous poem. She has great poem called woman flutter the domestic violence killing her sister. Here in Texas that is just overwhelmingly wonderful, and it's insight. and. She is. Kind of representative of local scene. Who could honor I? mean the whole International Women's Year That was here. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety seven is represented in effect. so that's the start and we have lots of women politicians now who are wrong bakers Sylvia Garcia an east corker. Poppy, whitmire both people are still alive. You don't normally fake statues of them but you can think about them to future representation and and suffrage is going back to them. figures like many Fisher Cunningham. I'm upset again. Ellen ewing or Auto Sue Thompson got women the vote effectively before the suffrage men was passed in one thousand, nine hundred seventeen by getting them the ability to vote in the Palmer. So there's been a law of representation of women in. In roles moving things forward, holding white was the first. Woman African American of all the gender, the deal elected to public office in Texas here in Houston on the school board, so if you, if you WANNA represent. That's one role. To. Remind people that even if they didn't necessarily become president of the United States, they were major factors in making things work here, and pushing things for to where we are now, and we still have a lot of problems. Just representing is not the wig in solve all the problems it. It's It's one part of this bigger conversation about. How do we make sure that people actually? I'm going to dive in and take some calls here so what we're going to go ahead and take some calls and go to Nancy and Rosenberg Nancy. What's your suggestion? my personal heroes, Rachel Carson and Roberto Clemente. Okay interesting! Political but not politicians. Dr Robertson your thoughts. I think that That inclusion of I I love how my sister mentions her a personal heroes that the inclusion of those who change the body politic that the way in which we imagine ourselves Americans, and the way in which we engage with America are going to be incredible criteria for memorializing our colleagues and so yeah. I would I would strongly recommend them as well. All right. Allen is in memorial, Alan. What would you recommend? Who who? Have Gotten short shrift in history. Yesterday morning. I'm Alan Memorial and I support. Media and I think Rachel Carson has just mentioned by nasty should be one of the people on any list Rachel Carson singlehandedly in his book in Nineteen Sixty Four. Up The environmental disasters that we are still dealing with today, ironically, Rachel Carson died of cancer to your at least two years later, and was never really given any recognition. She deserves beside. You know there are some are some monuments in in this country to her some preserves, but that book silent Spring Open the eyes of people and change climate policy in a way that affects us today and unfortunately hasn't affected US enough. All right thanks very much for the call in for the thoughts We also have an email from Michael who? says. He's from new. Orleans now lives in Houston and suggests how about homer, Plessey plessey versus Ferguson fame. As a as a good example. Doctor odds anyone to weigh in on that. Of course of course, hunger bless, he as well as Linda. Brown the little rock nine These are going to be very important. Figures who are are going to stand up against the system. The DOT did not recognize their humanity or their equality, and in doing so they made a sacrifice for us all so that we wouldn't be able to truly create a more perfect union by holding to those lives that gave us the kind of liberty that allows us the pursuit of happiness that is grounded in our in our independence. We also have the suggestion here of from her mind. Ulysses s grant and Jesse Jones Jesse H. Jones I'm wondering the. With Liz Grant. There's an example of someone who I think has been noted in the history books, but maybe more as the general from the civil war and less for his presidency. Are there elements of some historical figures? Where maybe their pieces of their biography that we should know more about and others that we don't need to know so much about Dr Gregory? Thoughts on that. I'm sure there are dynamics I know a lot about the. Grant. so I can't speak exactly for his case. but certainly you know it's a dynamic of who gets represented is You know not just an issue of statues. That's part of the discussion, but there's also and. He gets represented I. Believe on some money, right and the. Documentation of money as a representation of who valued in a society is also a point of some contention. Nowadays there was Susan. B Anthony Dollar was A. Coin and very little views. I think except in gambling context and then there was a lot of debate about the very public twenty dollar bill scratched We simply after being. Set in motion so there, husband. Discussion about like who who? Think of not just in terms of going to the park, but in a daily life is represented as important in our culture, and another venue for that has been stamps historically where you did see a wider variety of representation, especially in the past thirty years where there was a big emphasis on different kinds of cultural representations champs before that it was just a few figures repeating so and then street names and then back to college curriculum. who gets read who gets canonized I? Mean these are all aspects of the same discussion of around. Who Do we? What do we emphasize? And who do we see his role models and put forward for this kind of discussion, so yeah I mean you can look at the private side of somebody's life, as well and see. Something may be very different from what they were known for. In, initial, becoming a public figure things so there's complexity to everybody. Let's next. Go to Jimmy in Houston Jimmy. Who would you recommend from? US history that you think should be honored or recognized maybe a bit more. Opinion thank you take him. Home can be tonight. Eight American population. Now History we briefly touch about like how you know the interactions, and like other traditions, but I believe we don't touch. Stay culture, and especially how they were able to use the euro can do the native land. The land, and like when the Lewis in cloud expedition happened, and like the suction real I think I'm not saying name right, but how she helped set up the alliances. The Lewis and Clark expedition throughout the West. So I think really talk to my mic Lewis and Clark as a heroes out there, but there was a female who helps all these alliances with the native American tribes, and I didn't hear anything in the history. Books deal I actually reading more about these expeditions that really digging. High school books. It just. There's no mention if that I just want to highlight that. Mainly the native American population in how welcoming and friendly they were the foreigners, and like continues to them to you let. All right thanks very much for the call Jim. We appreciate it and Dr Robertson. A Jimmy brings up sock away I. Guess if nothing else I'll. I'll point out that for whatever it's worth growing up in Saint Louis. We learned a lot about that expedition, and so she was a figure that we were taught quite a bit about, but maybe she deserves more credit. And maybe Lewis and Clark a little less. You included in your list of figures that you think maybe deserved more than they have gotten. Sitting bull tell us about sitting bull. Yeah but I. Can you You sitting bull chief John Ross. are going to be really important. contributions to our American experiments as as the caller wonderfully mention not only were these native Americans To the settlers who came in and through various attempts, tried to make a way for us to to to really bring to inexistent. The multicultural United States of America that we all aspire to now but it's. But it's really important that we recognize what they also stood up for eight of American peoples and tribes, and a moment in time, when we worked systematically trying to exterminate them, and move them off of the land that was rightfully theirs, and so You know we think about chief John Ross and the way in which helps us model our government and help us as a as a as a burgeoning nation to come. Come to grips with all of the the challenges before us and as mentioned before secretary we and sitting bull, a standing up, and making sure that we recognize native person hoods, and the right of native people to be on this land than those ended up, being important cornerstones and characteristics that we need to not only remember and memorialize today that we equally needs project onto the minds and lives of our citizens in the future. Let's go to Greg and Kingwood Greg. What's your thought on this? Hey very interesting. Don't forget the Pocahontas and the dogs and how they accepted the pilgrim's and. got them to have a foothold and chief Joseph, but the other thing is you know one common denominator of all the statues coming down, and they are all men. And maybe we should have an so you look at the Great sculpture of history, except for the biblical stuff like the. The David but You look at like the thinker and Rodin you know a calm posits that to. Incorporating all the strength of womanhood. From an education and terrain and fierceness and Rosie the riveter and behind every good man is a good one well, how about statues and that you know that are inspiring? That can go in any city any state and still be You know Revered, and but also that's part of our society. Is The true backbone I think of our society. and. For the comments. Dr Gregory. I think that speaks to the idea of. representing the concept sort of the everyday person, not just the hero figures in a lot of the dynamics of statues historically been about war and law so a lot of the reasons. that. They're largely male along with the fact that men were the politicians, so they represented there has to do with various war. Figures represented in the. The names of the phone soldiers. On statues. the other side of life of family life which. Includes women, but isn't. Only winning all would be an interesting kind of. Way To explore the idea of banning. Greg would do we want to. TRAE as the important part of our culture who was here and at Houston is such a diverse city the end lack in white and Latino history. We also have a wide in a national population here so we're representing, and I know the question is more you know general about sort of national representation, but it's interesting to think about it locally as well because people think locally and experience things locally and can also go to New York and Washington and see larger National figures like that, but it's interesting to see what the connections are between the local and all the national. Dr, Elizabeth Gregory Professor of English. Director of women's gender and sexuality stays at the University of Houston, my apologies Dr Gregory, for interrupting the you there, but we are out of time Dr Robertson's director of the Center for Critical Race Studies at the University of Houston downtown. Thank you both very much for talking with fascinating discussion. Thank you we'll place. Can you plan a performing arts season without confirming of performing arts season. That's what the Society for the performing arts is trying to pull off and local arts organizations also trying to commission some new work at the same time. Meg Booth is the CEO of. And joins us now good morning, Meg. Good morning, how do you go about developing a season of performances when you don't really know if those performances will ultimately occur, or if there will ultimately be an audience for them? And it is of course I just like I think. It. Looks like we're having a bit of a connection problem with Meg booth. We're going to put her on hold for a moment and see if we can get a little establish a little bit better connection there back booth is the CEO of the Society for the Performing Arts, which is developing its new season, the and also trying to develop a commission some new work at the same time. Let's see if we've got maybe a little bit better. Connection there, Meg. Still, with US I am. Can you hear me? Yes, that's much better so I was I was asking you how you develop a season performances when you don't really know if any of those performances will ultimately take place if an audience will be there, what contingency plans to you make? Well, we have done about seventy five different plans for the course of the season, and it is very difficult because society for the performing arts brings artists from all around the world on the nation and right now there are so many quarantine. And limits on traveling individual that you know. For many people in many states if you come to Houston if you come to Texas then you have to quarantine for fourteen days when you leave Texas, so it is difficult because many artists have said that they are not going to confirm touring until they know they are going to be able. Travel freely so although we have a few performances that we have been able to win out we're really pouring our energy and our excitement into a very positive project, which is commissioning local artists hearing Huston that can be presented here in Houston and We're focused on feeling that creative pipeline here for our local artists. Can. You give us a little sense of how this commissioning project works. Sure, we're so excited about it because it really fills a gap. creates opportunities for small and mid size, Houston groups and artists to be presented in the theater district. the events of last month. Certainly have caused us to reevaluate any balls this project in response to everything that's happening in the world. We also reached out to the local artists and ask them. What do you need? What would be helpful right now? Because Arts workers not only in Houston, but really across the world. are just decimated by Cova. They simply can't work. They can't get together and studios All of the performances have largely been been stopped. We also with the New York. City Guggenheim works. Process Co presented a few digital commission. about a month and a half ago and so it caused us to reevaluate. Our projects so we're going to fall digital commissions throughout the fall. And that will be available to artists to potentially our social distancing. Working alone, so it's one artist. Maybe two or three? Maybe they're cohabitating someone else. and that will be a three minute digital commission, and then later in the year applications will be doing. December where they will be able to work in the spring and summer, we'll do a much larger commission with the intention of having live performance. On the Jones, Hall stage, and where we're targeting the live performance in June or July, so that will hopefully happen. At a time, where larger groups of artists can collaborate gather in the studio together and so work safely. How much are you basing what your plans will ultimately or won't be in the coming year on on what other performing arts organizations are doing? Well there certainly as a lot of networking going at this time both locally there. The theatre district you know we have a group called team seven. We meet regularly and there are a lot of national service organizations that foster networking. Presenters on a national basis, and Various Art Group and everyone is a little bit different. The Society for the plumbing hires artist outside of Houston to come here, so we don't have artists on payroll and so truly everybody is doing something a little bit different The symphony they have all of their artists that live here and so they have been able to work with those artists to do virtual performances, and so we're all talking about. We're all doing something a little bit different based on our our unique individual organization. You've been leading SPA for about a year and a half now. Is there anything you can take away from that first year that you can apply twenty twenty, or has this year just been its own unique beast. Burnley I think Kobe was something that nobody in any industry anticipated, and so that is unusual, but one of the Nice things about society was forming art is that we have focused on all genres from Music Dance Theatre to spoken word We really have the ability to to look at a lot of variety and And and we have the potential to be able. If. There's anything that I took from the first year that we continue to create. We can continue to be Nimble and evolve with the Times. Is the CEO of the Society for the Performing Arts? Make thanks so much for talking with us. Thank you. And that'll do it for today's show. The Houston Matters Team includes Michael. Hagerty Joshua's in Brenda. Ruiz, and Val de David. Pittman is our technical director for member to join Ernie News for another Houston matters special edition today at three on news eighty, eight seven on tomorrow morning show will explore whether the concept of pod isolation, keeping all actions socially distanced or otherwise to a limited number of people actually works, plus it's opening day. Yes, really after a four month delay the Houston Astros and Major. League baseball returned to the field. Will preview the season with Jeff Baulky? I'm Craig Cohen. Joins US tomorrow for those and. Others Houston maps.

Houston United States Texas Craig Cohen University of Houston Times Dr Vita Robertson Chinese consulate Chinese government University of Saint Thomas Dr Dr Gregory New York professor and chair Houston Astros New York City Center for Critical Race Studi Hannah Houston Methodist Baylor China Gender and Sexuality Studies
Week 12 Was Crazy... To Say The Least

The Bill Barnwell Show

58:14 min | 2 months ago

Week 12 Was Crazy... To Say The Least

"Today giving tuesday a global they of and it's also first day of espn's view recall. Bi partisan thing big today. I supporting cancer research. Which is needed now more effort. You're able give now v dot org slash donate one hundred percent of what you give goes directly to cancer research so great 'cause of course something near and dear heart our hearts. Espn you can go. Donate you're able. That would be really appreciated against v dot org slash doni snake eyes on the bill. Arnold show presented by draftkings america's top retailer for gap. We're gonna talk to lindsay jones of the way about the broncos lasko of the last week what happens every went down The blow by blow details. What the playbook look like really lots of fascinating stuff. reagan's in which still have some not happen before it gets that. I wanted to quickly tell you guys about another houston podcast hosted by frank meeting times. 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So add ziprecruiter to your roster to help you win the hiring game. Try ziprecruiter for free go to ziprecruiter dot com slash barnwell. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash barnwell. My last name b. a. r. w. e. l. ziprecruiter dot com slash barnwell ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire all right now as promised here on the bill ball show when this bronco story broke. The first person i thought of was the athletics jones covered the barcus for years now covers the nfl as a whole the athletic. And fortunately for me not only was lindsay able to appear on the shell today but also wrote an article on this very topic breaking down what happens with denver broncos joining me to talk about that all things cruiser because the nfl which is a big topic. These days is our friend. Was johnson's harry. I'm good bell. Thanks for having me back on the show as you said when i asked you fun topic for the time talk when it comes to the nfl so let me ask you but when you start from the beginning air with this branca's story so when you i heard about what was going to happen. I believe on saturday afternoon. What were your initial thoughts would i. i was like. This can't actually be happening right. There's gotta be some sort of mistake. There's going to be some sort of contingency. That one of these guys is going to be cleared but i believe my first reaction was like all right. Let's let's be the snow quarterback offense but also a little bit like disbelief but the way the twenty twenty has gone the way that the nfl has been enforcing its protocols and sticking to the letter of their memos and all this sort of stuff like i'm not surprised that they made the broncos play this way But it was bizarre. And you know. I've i've been covering the nfl since two thousand eight nine live in denver most of that time. I've been covering the broncos light. You know every minute of the tim. Tebow era a lot of bizarre stuff has happened around this team. I'm not sure there was a crazy or twenty four hours. Then what happens last weekend. From the quarterback being ruled ineligible to kendall hinton's promotion through whatever that was that they put on the field on sunday against shane's i love at the broncos quarterbacks and the only thing you can think of or the most the most relatable thing you can think of when it comes to that is the t bar where there was a quarter not really a quarterback. That was. yeah. I mean i have. My initial thought was well. I do remember the broncos winning a game on time or the only completed two passes. So it's not like we haven't seen that before and this was houston hill. Was the other starting quarterback in this game. Who reminds me a lot of tim. Tebow and the the taste of hell experiment and the offense with putting together for him You know honestly the offense that shades brought out. They rolled out when they kind of. Leave your game plan knowing. That can probably weren't gonna have to score a lot of points. It reminded me. A lot of the broncos would do back in late. Two thousand ten and drought part of most of that two thousand eleven geez and it was very very familiar to me but yeah it was Yeah it was his are. It was very jarring. I was at the game at mile. High watching whatever that was. And i had sheep's bucks on my laptop pulled up on sunday ticket and it was it was like we were watching two completely different sports. I mean one of those games might as well been played on mars because it was completely different. Just watching patrick mahomes and tyreek hill. What they were doing in the first half compared to what. I was watching on the field where i think at one point. I think it's a two minute warning. There was negative nine net passing yards and not bronco saints. Game in a quarterback is hard. I think is all jazz with no practice in. I don't want to criticize him whatsoever. I don't know if anyone really is now not i. Everyone has been like everyone's on the same page. irreverence data. like you did good. You're not the problem. You're the best you good. All visitor did a reasonable job. It's just the circumstances in which beings should you are in our ridiculous crazy and so you wrote about this plane for the athletic. And i wanted to ask you. Can you just lay out. Sort of the timeline of events that led to saturday so from the beginning of the week what happens in denver to cause this. Yeah and i think there's a lot of lessons for around the league but can be you know that the other teams should take from what happened here because it wasn't a kind of stuff that was really out of the ordinary. it's you know it was kind of a normal. You know normal in air quotes because nothing is normal but On tuesday was the player off day. Drew lock the starting quarterback. You know kind of organize a Informal washing don't watch accession so that was with chapter school red ripping and blake bortles blake. Bortles was their quarterback is on the practice squad and they said all right. Let's all go. We'll go hang out in the quarterbacks room and watch film for a couple of hours So that's what they did and they would be prohibited from meeting off campus The nfl koga protocols very clearly As of late. September early. October very clearly state. That players are not allowed to gather facilities. So they they thought that they were in the clear you know. The broncos had been given permission to hold quarterback meetings and that's multipurpose room inside their field house bigger than a regular patron. But it's not a large room. It's like they were setting out on the turf field and fieldhouse tiny means but the during this some fashion According to people who saw the video their surveillance video from inside the room they were there for about two hours. They were pretty inconsistent with wearing their masks. During that time they were eating They also were not wearing their con connects on tracking devices. Those are those little like tags but all. Nfl players and team employees have to wear whenever they're inside the building that so the the nfl collects data for contact tracing. They figure out who has been in Who has been in contact and for how long they data's automatically uploaded all this stuff. They were not wearing 'cause devices this tuesday they. They'll come back to work on wednesday. They go through regular be you know. They go through regular practice on wednesday all for these guys together. Thursday morning jack driscoll who technically number three quarterback he learns that he tested positive for the coronavirus and they immediately ben started the contact tracing process. One they don't have the contact tracing data from the connect devices from tuesday because the guys weren't wearing them and the other quarterbacks were not forthright in their interactions with each other. You know if they were asked. Did you know how much time did you spend around jackson. Say oh not that much or you know where every time we were around him. Where you wearing your math. They said yes. of course. we wear masks well. There initially cleared. You know they they say okay. You're not high risk close contacts all those guys You know they're not ruled out. There determined to be close contact with michael high risk and the the distinguishing the difference. There is that if you're determined to be a high risk close contact and there's a mandatory five day isolation period there where your clock starts the day after your potential exposure. You five days you have to return a negative test each of those things and then he can be clear. We've seen talk all over the league right. I mean we tire week. Where the the entire Las vegas raiders offense line. We're determined to be higher close contacts A bunch of raiders defensive. Starters have gone through this. There's a whole bunch of guys on the reading list. Currently that are determined to be a high risk close contacts So that should have been the end of that right okay. They're not determined to be highest close contacts. Well at some point on thursday. The the broncos believe the nfl pa. Got a tip. Basically said somebody who i'll somebody else. Who's in the field house on tuesday that you probably need to look at the surveillance video There's reason to believe that what the video is going to show is not going to line up with the statements that you guys gave and So you know if the video it's a couple of hours worth of video they ought to the nfl for review And then they wait and sure enough. The video showed that there was inconsistent matthew but they were laxed on those protocols. And how closely were adhering to that and So broncos because their ability on friday abundance caution they did everything virtually they can actually practice But saturday they come back to fill it either. Going to walk through. The guys are out all out on the field when they're one of their complaints guys. Get the call from the league office. That call says you. Gotta pull all the quarterbacks off right now. They got to get out of the building. We're gonna we gotta keep looking into this. So lock boorda and ripping. I'll get pulled off the field. Megan back home at this point. Broncos coach is still think it's precautionary they still think it's just like they have to work through something so they go through the rest of the walk through Their last kind of walk through in preparation for sunday's game and without a quarterback but they kind of go through this just to walk day before game type stuff and then within a couple of hours. They get the official word that all the quarterbacks are yield out. So that's kind of how this time line goes but by now we're to saturday afternoon. We're middle saturday afternoon. You know three or four o'clock when they're officially ruled out and kick off sunday's game is that to fifteen or two oh five local time. So we're less than twenty four hours here and they're figuring out. What exactly is our quarterback situation gonna look like what a interesting turn of events because it sounds like if there had not in a whistleblower in the organization presumably call the nfl. Hey double check that video. The broncos probably would not have had this issue now that is my understanding of situation because they were initially cleared. They were initially determined to be just close contacts you know. Has most quarterbacks would be within a quarterback group But then the the video evidence not review and i believe the fact that there were inconsistencies. They're probably helped the nfl make their decision there as well but yeah i mean i it could. It's very easily could have ended their and it's definitely something to consider now or to think about with these other situations and how closely now they're looking at various evidence for Peter contact tracing aim. Your sodas totally say since two thousand eight. You're particular covered. All the fallon able from organizations are. Are you surprised that somebody within the broncos organization or someone who had access to this footage would contact the nfl. It almost seems like you know there are organizations where you actor a culture of saying. Hey if this happens don't tell the. Nfl these are the consequences would be and needed those people from the broncos organization. You'll like this was lowered the wrong thing ordinance to the nfl. It's a it's an interesting question. Because yeah i mean you put the team in a really bad place right. I mean they had to play a game but if they win the game now not having a chance and we found a way that the same offense played like they would have had a chance of drew lock with playing quarterback there so it you know it really is an interesting dynamic and interesting question but you know i think there are a lot of people within organizations across the league not just not just in denver but that are you know understanding that kind of everybody needs to be following the same sort of rules and this is not an organization that has been immune from kobe cases. I mean they had a number of players. A number of coaches. John elway thirty general manager. And joel who's the guy who basically is there one. Basically they're acting owner and part of the one of the trustees but he's the one that goes to the owners meeting for he also had kobe. their defensive coordinator at donatella was hospitalized kobe. So i think there's an understanding of how serious this is and what the case numbers look like in denver which has been very bad and it's just like they are in most places in the country right now so you know i- i- injuries to see what comes of this after but i hope that whoever was that you know said hey there was. There was something. Imagine you should check it out. But they are not They don't face any sort of retribution. In goes one of ninety six does his best is was not especially all that great but again no one. Christmas is not the problem here. Is it true. Broncos wanted to start a coach at quarterback. It's true that they asked if it would be possible. I don't think it's super realistic. That they actually would have been able to go through with it I don't think the joe have actually had that happen. But they did ask. They wanted to see if it would have been possible. So rob calabrese there Offensive quality control coach and he was a quarterback at university of central florida in the early two thousands. I believe two thousand twelve ash so look. He's played quarterback in the division one level. it's been quite a while She didn't necessarily have extensively more quarterback experience than kendall kendall hinton dead who played quarterback I think he had fourteen starts at wake forest a quarterback Earlier in his career he ended up converting to wide receiver his his final two seasons or so In wake forest. But look. I mean it was it just last year. That was four and matt patricia. Both like twitter achilles just like walking around practice. We can only imagine what would happen to me. You know. twenty eight thirty s or year. Old man trying to get chased by. If you save by cam jordan. Ray i think we all would probably die so I mean. I don't think he was ever a realistic option. But they didn't inquire about it. I mean rob calabrese Was at ucf with blake bortles. So you know there could have been some kind of synergy. There's owes a lot of dots to connect the dots to borders with there. Is the practice squad. Quarterback is like a whole separate issue. And why if you're going to have in there. He hasn't actually been quarantined. I can spend a lot. Time unpacking to blake bortles situation but But yeah well. I think it's a fair question though. I mean we've heard about teams. Think the bills jake farmer in example of teams who happiest. You've been quarantining a quarterback. That guy will not go into in person meetings more happened. He was just on zubaydah's or the other quarterbacks he doesn't practice with the team he shows factors gordon. Chris mortensen some drills with a a selected group of practice. Squad buyers is basically kept separate in case what to the broncos and obviously. I don't think the broncos expected all of their quarterbacks to be caught with amazon and half to quarantine but dean think the broncos should have at least consider this as a possibility and prepared by having one of their quarterbacks. Yeah anything they are. Everybody should have maybe more actively considered it. You know it was something. It was story line through the offseason. I think bruce arians was the first one he floated it as something that might be possible and we all kind of like a little chuckle about it. But you know it did end up mattering right. I mean no matter. Goodness game. I think other teams would be wise to do probably do the same I would. I believe there are more teams. That are not quenching a quarterback than actually are. There's only a handful of them The eagles were one. Who work weren't union quarterback in the most extreme way when they had josh mccown on their practice squad and he was living near houston and with participating in. There's meeting and a lot of questions about how they would actually the logistics of it. They needed him because he wasn't in the bills you know. He wasn't actively in their the testing protocol. Where you can't just bring a guy off the street like normally would in a normal year so this questions about the logistics of you know if you needed. Have saturday afternoon for example that would have actual well But look i mean now that it's a realistic issue. And i think other teams need to look at doing the same The us his plan was going to change if he would corner quarterback About monday afternoon and he. He said that they didn't have immediate plans to do. So and that. If everybody probably protocols they would be fine Later that afternoon they did. Fine kyle shurmur. Who is a former college quarterback vanderbilt You know he's been on practice squad in the nfl. Most recently with kansas city last year. And obviously he is pat shurmur broncos offensive coordinator son so they did sign him to the roster yesterday. He's gotta pass through all of the coated protocols before he can actively be either in their building or especially on there but So you know they in theory could quarantine him now like. It was a little bit more got contingency plan. Let's say lock rippin or bortles test positive or all three of them were test positive and they would need a quarterback next week against the chiefs. Who and they needed somebody other than kendall and so i you know it's interesting in kind of complicated situation. I mean i think the one thing that the nfl keeps kind of coming back to is that everything has been a mess this year. And i mean but as cases are rising and all of the there's been no documented cases onfield transmission You know between teams or something that has happened. Actually like on the fields. You know. there's not. We're not seeing offensive linemen. Give it to defensive lineman in the course of a practice or a game. Whenever we have seen spread within a team it's come from meetings Wait where sideline interactions and so there's a little bit the vic fangio's right that was like look hasn't been gathering together to have a meeting in person and not wearing masks whatever This when that happens pange i. I'm gonna be very curious if the next step for the nfl. you know they. They put all of the teams into these intense protocols after week. Eleven i i. I don't know we're in because we're it has finished. Yeah right like i guess. We're in week thirteen but we're still kind of week twelve But there have been allowances teams can submit proposals to say. Hey we want how i want to have. The broncos wanna have our quarterback in the in this multipurpose room years square footage and the ventilation and all that sort of stuff and i have been approved but the players getting together on their off day there to hang out and spend several hours together. That's completely against the spirit of these intensive protocols. So i would not be surprised if the next step from the nfl. To say under no circumstances will there be in person meetings own meetings whether those are players. Only staff coaches personnel. There will be no meetings. Even if you're the los angeles rams and you have a twenty thousand five twenty thousand square foot outdoor tent. That's like the rams. Do no more in person meetings to try to stop any future situations like this dan. I mean i think that's plausible. Certainly tough to enforce especially off of the visibility because don't have players are players in clear they're not wearing their player checking Devices outside of the facility are they know their jets for inside the bill. Way there were you know. And i i. I talked to Folks at the league office and people who are dealing with those devices early in the air when they first preseason about some of those questions and they couldn't legally have them wear them at all times. There were a lot of Kind of ethical questions about you know where you are at all times here in close contact with and they only work if you're around another person who's wearing line so they weren't going to make all of the family members or nannies or whoever it is where these devices also so the only work if you're in in the building and you're required to wear them when you're in the building and some of these other places that we've seen protocol breakdown so that's tennessee baltimore Watch vegas there have been issues with inconsistent use of these tracking devices. And that's something that is considered a violation of protocol teams will get punished for about the game itself And then i want to talk about sort of punishment issue in terms of what the brockers were actually doing on offense during this game. What did their playbook look like. On such short notice for kendall and the marcus offense. Yeah so they You know they started having these meetings. Saturday afternoon saturday evening. There thirteen hotel. And it's you know so it's kendall and it's Shula their quarterbacks coach. Pat shurmur And then if also phillip lindsay and royce freeman who you know two of their running backs. It's basically those guys figuring out okay. We're gonna run all we're going to do. They put in a couple of tapping passing packages. But they just figured we're gonna do wildcat as much as we can They started out the game really on this rotation of the lindsay taking breakfast. Roy freeman taking some naps. And then they would bring him kendall hidden in person third down but they got into like almost all third and long like they were like thirty eight thirty nine hundred twelve. And it's like you know but the broncos often ends up in third amongst a lot no matter who their quarterback is but it was a you know i would be a little bit better with chew lock third and eleven than i did with a guy who never played in the nfl before But yeah it was really this You know at. I was like confuse the saints. Can we just you know. Do enough to cycle different people in and out of the huddle They're really try to construct the edges a bit. You know we know how dynamic phillip lindsay is right. And they don't that i drive. I think he broke off like fourteen yard run and you had a moment there. You're like maybe they'll be able to get into field goal range or you know. Move the ball a little bit and then very quickly at all kinds of you know you realize just wasn't going to be a functional functional and they're also playing against one of the nfl's best defenses. I mean it would have been a lot easier for being a lot easier but it would have been a bit easier. Had this game been against like cincinnati bengals or dallas cowboys. But they're reminding up playing cam. Jordan markets import. And you know they weren't going to pass much. But i pass that Pendleton maturity through downtown Marshon lattimore which felt like maybe not the best. Maybe not the decision that i made or the guy with a guy with a targeted early. But yeah i mean it was. It was really an impossible situation. And this is not to solve kendall hinting at all because i mean key you imagine a situation not only had he never played in the nfl. He'd never taken shops quarterback. I mean he was. She was signed to the broncos. Practice squad on november four. So he hadn't even been here a month. You know practicing the team. And he was doing all of his work as a scout team receiver and doing a lot of special teams work and he was working on catching punts doing a lot of know. Special teams coverage and Either just last week actually. He texted a picture of himself catching puns in practice. He packs about picture to date crossing his coach. Way for us to say like hey coach like thanks for making me work on special teams because look what. I'm doing now here. The broncos and figured that would be a path to at some point getting on the active roster and so it was just it was really an impossible situation and Just a ton of respect for him the way that he handled. It employs His teammates you know really supported him a lot. You know i think around the league. He's getting a lotta respect. The saints guys were like tipping their taps to him and just understanding how difficult this is. Because i mean. I think you can make the argument. The playing quarterback in the nfl is probably the single most difficult position in all of professional sports and he was asked to do that on twenty four hours notice without any practice time not impossible and It's going to be a hell of a story that he's going to be able to tell the rest of his life and you know. Hopefully the the final score the final stats. Don't diminish just exactly what it was that he was asked to do and and you know he put. He put forth a good offer. It it just you know it was just way too difficult. I mean you know. He was not great for being honest but he was opened on the first half of one or two in the second. Half there are actual. Nfl quarterbacks who have been quarterbacks in college. Jackie quarterback with the number one eight know played as an actual nfl quarterback who have really bad games. It's not like he was so much worse than your maytham peterman's of the world or a really backing from jake degrom or even tibo. I mean like he was but against a very techy with one day notice. He was kind of a little bit. That's incredible. I think that's was impressive as we've seen all season that i hope that he gets opportunities whether it be the broncos this year or down line in the years to come act is a position now. Hyphen sieber were specialties. To happen career because this for him and obviously you know hey at started going to get. You're going to be some people are gonna remember twenty five years from now. I'll bet one gimmick in started but at the same time i think it's also you know hopefully humor recognition and adding show me did He'll get an opportunity to clay. Were meaningfully admission. Murray has perhaps the possibility of watching a long-term. Nfl career are. We'll get back to our show up here in a moment but first last week is in the books it's over now. It's time to review the tape. Check out the numbers and prepare for this upcoming week of football. 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My last name get gonna free shot up millions of dollars in prizes with your first deposit. That's code barnwell. Only at draftkings make it. Rain minimum. Five dollar deposit required eligibility restrictions apply. See dr king's dot com for details. Here's what i want. Because i i have the actual text here of the memo from roger. Goodell sent out this year. Mary's the quote. And then i'm going to ask you broncos situations name what unquote if a game is postponed due to one clubs inability to play because of covid cases. The burj of any competitive financial and consequences will fall fall. More heavily on that club ciccarelli. If the club is not adhered to the health and safety protocols has failed to cooperate contact tracing or other views in response to positive tests among clump players are stat and So we broncos reportedly wanting to pushes the back to monday. It was denied broncos. I was lost of competitive game broncos fans at least the ones i see ensured very. You're very rare happening. Denver broncos fans are upset. They're saying. Hey the ravens where he will get their game. Laid different times broncos route so given the terms laid out by roger. Goodell about this exact situation. Do you think the broncos treated unfairly by the nfl. i mean. I think it was an unfair game but i don't. I don't think that they were. They were treated unfairly I know there's a lot of people who believe that. I don't know if it's fair. If any of this affair none of us is right. Is there anything that's happening to season the fair but under the term but have been laid out the rules that have been established we hundreds of pages of memos that have been sent the words that have been spoken what they've talked about it owners meetings all of this stuff they operated under those will and it that's the broncos and wasn't the broncos it was going to be somebody at some point and i've seen you see this around the league and when you cover the league at large like you and i both do you kind of take a little bit more of like a thirty thousand view and look at what's happening and every team and the niners that they have been treated unfairly. They believed they were treated unfairly with about thursday night game and they play without all of their wide receivers and they got blown out the packers who were also missing. Almost an entire position group because of positive contact tracing. they didn't have their. They're running back the niners to have their wide receivers. Now the niners are having to go on the road for basically the rest of the season. I mean they're relocating to arizona for three weeks. I'm playing to home game At the cardinals home stadium. So you could argue the doc on their the steelers a case to say that they've been jerked around and treated unfairly. The raiders fans feel persecuted. I know the saints believe that they've been treated unfairly. you know. Those are the teams that have been fined from those that also have been docked. Josh pex so you know. I think there's a lot of things you can say berbie. We've we've been unduly burdened or we haven't been given a chance oliver versus thing. But i kind of look at it like this is very clearly lined out and if and if they had pushed this game back a couple of days based on strictly these roster issue they would have every single team now that had contact tracing issues and then guys that have been pulled out you know for the five days you know for the browns collins. They push arcane back myles. Garrett is on the kobe or you know you could argue that you myles. Garrett is just important to the browns and drew lock is so the broncos right So i just think it was would have been setting up really dangerous precedent for having to evaluate every single case. Now make you know teams will be able to make the case that they were being treated unfairly. I think you could make a different health and safety arguments. That how safe is it to go out and play with a quarterback who is not taking a single snap That maybe they could have and if they can push the game to monday. Those quarterbacks wouldn't have been eligible. They're not. They were cleared to return to the roster till tuesday so if they had and they did ask could you push it. Ideally they wanted crystal tuesday but if they pushed it from monday that would have allowed them to go through one. Practice with kendall. Taking some snaps from lloyd cushenberry. But the first time he wasn't handling snaps with during pre game. Warm up I think that's maybe a reasonable argument but Pushing the game for a couple of days just to let these other guys finish their isolation period and return all their negative tests. That really goes against all of the terms that have been laid out and agreed had been voted on by league ownership. All thirty two owners agreed to this. The nfl pa signed off on pretty much. All of this and yeah. It's i mean. I just think that everybody inch getting at some point every team. If you're going to get screwed for lack of a better term right can. I say that on podcast. I don't think you can guess now. Okay i agree. I think that's true but given that everybody who's a weird season and that teams would have to be flexible scheduling thinking about the ravens steelers team at one outstanding game charles. This was supposed to happen on thursday of last week the ravens as re and a half point underdogs escape or something. Let's say at three forty in the afternoon eastern classic but all the nfl showed cited for wednesday lunchtime football. It'd be lunchtime here in denver. I'm i'm excited for it. It's great. I'm really excited to. I'm afraid it's going to become a trip to encourage the nfl. Like having some afternoon is free. But what is off. Albie entertained by but rarely japan a week later. Almost they are ten point. Underdogs dies out dramatically. They have been hit by the providers so number one. If you believe this game is actually still being played this week and number two. Do you think the circumstances stranding this particular game. Her both are on the steelers. Go beyond those sort of expectations of everyone stating spur and there are some very real. Very real health and safety concern. Better going on with this game Certainly from the ravens side. And i understand i mean there have been reports over the last couple of days that ravens players have been concerned about one flying when they her spell. There's still made some be some question about who could potentially be infected and not a tested positive yet but then also just the fact that you're going to go out and play without really practicing like they were gonna hold. I think they were able to pull one walk through. And maybe kind of one kind of practice before getting on a plane and flying to pittsburgh on tuesday night and that's a pretty long layoff. I mean they were not able to practice they all last week. So you know you're going ten days. Plus really i mean. They haven't practiced since their last game. Which now feels so long ago. That can't even remember who went that. They played without mickley. The tighten up their life is the titans right. She tennessee tendency wasn't the patriots house. No it was. It was the titan game because we had har- by on her by migrations jawing at each other game betting i guess it was those two teams last play. But that's a really long time. So i do understand that there. You know why there are concerns there. There is of course precedent that this is what the titan basically have to do but you know when the titans their outbreak that you know they're building was closed. They had very little practice time. You they were. They were not able to really work back into football schade before they had to go to buffalo and play or i guess they hosted that game i before they had to play the bills. Which was tuesday night game. I was the choose again that we got right Feel so long ago. But so i you know i think there are. Some significant questions are about what this team is gonna look like you know the the league and the agree on on a rule different roster rules the practice squads were expanded to sixteen players they have basically unlimited number time variable to call players up off the practice squad to be just as cova replacements and they immediately revert back to the practice squad after the game. They're able to sign veteran guys to practice squad. Which is why i was like blake bortles and does bryant who've been on practice squad this year. I'm josh mccown. you know. Forty year old. Josh mccown was on a practice squad this year. So you know. This is the first time the biggest test of those rules because the ravens because of this long delay have been able to get a couple of the guys back Including mark ingram and jk dobbins were the first players and up. You know to test positive and end up on the list. It's been so long that they're actually going to be able to play in this game when they are going to be without a significant number of players including lamar jackson. Obviously the most important player. So yeah i mean it's totally it's going to be difficult And it doesn't make it a compact. Yeah i you know. I don't think it makes them competitive and game Maybe that's the one thing that the steelers can contain gotta vest when they certainly have been jerked around. You know they lost another kind of by week or would have been a mini by week. they are playing a greatly diminished team. For i mean it. It's been a really fascinating that does dealers because they're also undefeated now. It's not as if this week. Who said okay. Well that lack of rest finally dots that we've been able to overcome back. So i i treat ac- have as might benefit dealers and long long-term One press release set out wrestle. The nfl santana. The one to the game being moved to tuesday before it was moved again to stay in the press. Release the nfl said quote unquote. We are acting out of a abundance of caution. Do you think that is fair. Even how they acted Over the course of the last week with the steam well. I think for acting out of abundance of cova cautions i mean i think all of these decisions are being made based on who is positive right now is the virus. Still being chanted within a team have they isolated cases. i think it's just a very narrow. Look at what is caution and not a broader. Look at like well. Are we subjecting these guys tamar achilles injuries or you know what's going to happen because they haven't practice or the fact that we're going to be having you may have some offensive linemen who have never played in an nfl game lining up against j. What you those sorts of abundance of caution not sure. Those decisions are going into it. You know i guess my one just lingering question out there is why the league has widely. They've been filling locked to just either just trigger that week eighteen option. And just say okay. Let's do this or you know at some point. Just press pause for a week and you know. I thought there was caused that they could have done that. And maybe you should have done that back. in early october when the titans The titans outbreak was like really still ramping up and the patriots were going through their situations. Patriots traveled which you know. I think you want to criticize some of the move but the league has made claim that monday. Night game In kansas city the patriots chiefs game right after Cam newton tested positive. I think that was a mistake. Go more into the testing positive immediately after that game then they had to push the next week's game. I think that was mistake. I think they learned a lot From that game. I you know why have they. Just don't know why they're so reluctant us that we gave option because if they weren't gonna use it in this situation where this is the game that matter they they have talked about how it's so important that the games that are the impactful games and this game is going to impact the playoff because one the steelers they desperately want to keep that number one. They don't want that she stand up catching them. And having you know getting not one seed and the ravens are right. I well right now. The playoffs started today. They wouldn't be in it but they're going to be right in the middle of that. Afc wild or grace to the rest of the season so this game matters. It's not like this. is you know. I'm trying to think of a you know. Angles jess type of game. Right where while that would matter for draft pick rankings or whatever but it wouldn't matter for the overall outcome of this season. You could cancel that game. You could just postpone it. Put a tv on it This is impossible game and and matters to both teams that matters to the whole league. So you'd think you'd wanna put it in the best situation and then when they do keep doing all these other movement it's not happening in a vacuum there's so many other dominant the ball and now it's it's not just twelve problem. It's a week thirteen problem now. Where we're gonna have all these games on next monday night because the one thursday night game already got moved and then pittsburgh's next game. Their game against washington has gotten moved off sundays so it it's really hard. I don't envy the position. That schedule makers are in. But i just wonder at one point. They're just gonna say let's just go to eighteen. Let's give ourselves flexibility and not having to put so many teens through the wringer hair just to get some of these regular season games on happening within the next two questions actually Because people keep asking me. And i have my answer. Adot confident my answers akard. So don't think it makes much sense the idea that number one. Why is bush engaged back to eighteen and number two. If this wasn't a reason to do this what would it take to make a week. Eighteen gave happen and my stockins. Those they're basically does not want to move the date of the super bowl Yeah and they have. No flights to hotels look infrastructure. All this matter by number one because we're in an era of kobe. So you know. There's tons of conferences happening in tampa like you could move date week and it it be the end of the world in the to. You still have the week off between the conference championships. And the super bowl. You have to work with so we gave team. Isn't the issue that possibility of wheat. Nineteen that would really concerned the nfl or some to move back in the super bowl a week. But i just don't understand what it is doesn't it's not the super bowl mark. What else could it really be. Yeah you know. I think there is a bit of like messaging in it do like. They are so determined to like. We're going to do this. We can do this. We don't have to have. All these destructions are protocols. Are going to hold up You know that kind of that feeling that we can get this done even though they did. I mean the owners meeting. I guess i was november. All my dates and our getting jungle out there but at some point in november there was they earth. They voted on this and they gave they formerly gave himself that option to complete the two hundred and fifty six game schedule Or slate within eighteen weeks instead of seventeen weeks. So they're just so reluctant to paul. Because i think once. They know that they've done that then. They're not they're going to be out of all of their options and you know clearly. They would rather reschedule multiple games than one week. Then push anything that we gay teen and you know. I think there might be a bit of just concern but once they do it and they start filling up. You know once the steelers and ravens. How game put in two thousand eighteen if the ravens situation isn't resolved there's another outbreak or now the teach you how the steelers had their own outbreak or some. They need another game that you don't have any other options I don't know there's a bit of. It feels just stubborn afraid to do it. I just think they're kind of stubborn. Insight we can make the top and we can get this done within the framework and you know how why is that how is that. I'm not sure you know. But they're gonna they're they're determined to make it happen. Yeah this is almost takes pride in how little affected by the outside world. But you can't pretend that league is and impacted by cova and we saw a game where you know a guy who was not even a college quarterback very long was the quarterback for eighteen game. That could end up impacting the playoffs heating in the nfc. I mean. I don't think you can pretend that it's not being impacted the ray so this sort of arbitrators station up oh as long as we get to fifty six done by sunday night seventeen. We accomplished something like you can do that. In the process you weed compromising what we're seeing during some of these weeks especially this week as sort of the most significant example. I mean it was entertaining. But i think entertaining in a way. That was a little embarrassing to leave the same time. Yeah yeah. I i agree. Yeah i mean. I think it was. I think it was embarrassing on a lot of you know for a lot of reasons and you know it was ki- it was like a curiosity for a few minutes. And then at pro howard. How are they going to pull this off. But by the second half it was just sad. It was really difficult to watch and You just felt bad for all the guys out there. I think phillip lindsay was doing all these direct snapped and calling plays off his armband 'em he tweaked his knee and he has to come out of the game and they don't believe it's a long term injury given what the game looks like at you know. Basically by halftime there wasn't really much point in putting back in that game. But yeah i mean it's just. I wasn't a good product. It wasn't Highlighting the quality of play that the nfl. You know the standard that holds itself to and Yeah it just it was. It was just a rough week all around. I mean it was happening all the time where you know. The niners are going through this stuff and the ravens the ravens outbreak. And you know and then you look you turn on. Tv on thanksgiving and there's thirty thousand fans at gerry world where it's like the pandemic the at all but how voice for two nfc east teams but even a good game. Yeah i i. I feel like maybe should do some examining about decision making their if that was how you spent your thanksgiving. But that's the yeah. Yeah i don't. I don't need them. Having into my mentioned right now. So i i will leaving all that aside which is impossible but just for a second to finish up here. I've already tried to previous game once last night on the podcast brinson. It got delayed nor marco vitesse or markova bosses more close contacts with move from situation like you said. Jk dobbins came back marking also came back after testing being on the co visit. So we've had guys go through the process negatively back onto the active roster. The ravens are six and four. I don't know if they're playing for their lives rape four behind the steelers Pretty much playing i think. Or if their seasons something close to their season do they have any hope of winning the scene a yeah i mean. I think it's just been such a weird week. It's not like the steelers have had kind of a normal preparation. They also have had a number of players based on the list Which was kind of a reminder to me that during all the screaming and yelling from segments of the steelers fan base about how the ravens should have to work at this game and then with it like forty eight hours James conner and Onto it and i think there were a couple other guys replaced on the list was a reminder that nobody is immune from this but i was the steelers do tend to play down to competition sometimes but you know they. It's not like they've been the juggernaut weekend and week out. I i think they shown games where they can put up a lot of points. They've shown a lot of games or their defense. Looks really really good. I think they've got kind of really relying on the weekend and week out You know what it's not like you're going in with practice bible and receiver. They do have our three if their backup quarterback who just like they're gonna have to completely change their offense systems When they're going from. You know losing lamar jackson going to rg three. So you know. I i don't wanna say they don't have a chance i i. I wouldn't bet on them. That's for sure. But i don't think it's quite the same situation as the broncos where you knew going to die game. There was no chance they were going to win. If it just as robert griffin has not been good for several years now even given his spot appearances for the region houston bad. He was all the brands. Although to fairview jackson habit apple with the browns. Yes the problem You know i. I would like to believe they have shot. Certainly still some talent bear but it just seems awful tough. I mean if this is how reefa end up missing out on the postseason do you think they have a right to feel sort of hard done biking circumstances or do you think they asked hearing to say. Hey you know. Our coach has as a positive in cincinnati. And didn't tell anybody and this is sort of you know we are reaping what we so. Yeah i mean. I guess it kind of goes back to this thing where it's like. I think we have to throw out the idea of fairness and equity here. Because it's just not it's just not there's just not there it doesn't exist this year. I think every team at some point is going to have some sort of reason to grumble and you know. I would much rather this game in week. Eighteen when both teams or fully healthy. And you have lamar jackson and you have Kind of your full your full roster. But that's not gonna happen. That's not the reality. Unfortunately that we're living in and you know they're going to get to play this game without you know they might. They might have sixteen practice by players called up week. And they're not gonna. They're starting quarterback But this is the game that we're getting. We're getting it on wednesday afternoon. Which is going to be weird. But you know i hope. It doesn't cost them their season right. I hope you're able to you. Know rebound the titans. I didn't think the titans were gonna win when they after their outbreak and they had to. They didn't practice almost two weeks. I had to go to buffalo. And then they lose the doors off of the bills so it's certainly possible but It it's a talk break but also like you said. I mean they were at fault. Ray i mean this is my This is not like a blameless situation. Yeah i if it's complicated that this is something i keep coming down. It has years propagated. Your that's easy answers for anything when it comes to the nfl this year. But i feel like that's insight from one of the best in the business talking about the nfl. Hopefully next time you john's we'll have war But for ninety next to a fun show. We'll do like a coach draft or something which we believe is something you did on a recent podcast of yours. We the coach fight club. Okay on ours. In our podcast. Yeah where we yeah. We didn't we didn't necessarily dropped to we. You know. I know that stan ghazi on us. I don't wanna step on his. I don't step on his chirp there but you know. I'm sure i'm sure we simply give something planned for next time. You do football podcast and of course you other stuff with funny yes so yeah. You can follow me on twitter at by h jones. And you can you call all my contents is there and you can hear me on the athletic football show. Podcast robert mays on thursdays. So we'll be recording that. I believe during the ravens steelers game which will be Which will be kind of fun. So yeah catch that on. Thursday awesome lizzy always excellent coming on bell. Thanks so much to my friend and see joe the athletic the show. Hopefully i said we have more. Football remained topics less disease and contact tracing related conversation. But they really fascinating story. Denver's talk about added. I think ravens fan. I just wanted to happen this. I'm just like i've been preparing for for over a week now. Just ready for but we will see open tomorrow. I'll be guys doing all guys a healthy and happy thanksgiving. We have more audio coming next week. Socialists or on the way and now another edition of obvious news from geico. A study says that soft talkers. Do not make great radio personalities. We asked local librarian. Steve sage about this. And here's what he said. I don't buy the harry. Captivating radio also an obvious news geico makes it easy to save money and easy to manage your policy with the geico app so switching is a really smart decision. How steve feel about this. I love the guy co op. Use it all the time. That's all these news from geico.

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