2 Episode results for "Guantanamo Court"
Intercepted Bonus: Inside the Secretive Court at Guantanamo Bay as CIA Torture Architect Testifies
"This is intercepted. Jeremy scahill coming from the offices of the intercept in New York City and this is a special bonus episode of intercepted buried deep under headlines about Donald Trump's impeachment quote unquote acquittal. The Democratic primaries peop- Bernie Bloomberg was news out of Camp Justice in Guantanamo Bay Cuba. Last month the two masterminds of the CIS torture program were called as witnesses in a pretrial hearing for the men accused of plotting the nine eleven attacks. Dr James Mitchell was in the courtroom for pre trial hearing for five nine eleven suspects who had been subject to torture euphemistically called enhanced interrogation techniques when the capital trial at Guantanamo War. Court finally happens next year in twenty twenty one. It will have been two decades since the crime took place. Here are some of the truths that have long been forgotten the prison one time. Oh is still open. The people who engineered torture were never held accountable and the men who may have been involved with the September. Eleventh attacks have not yet been convicted. The problem of Guantanamo Bay has only been mentioned in one democratic debate wiping the Obama administration close to close Guantanamo Bay. But you have to have congressional already to do it. They've kept it open. The fact is that we in fact think it's the greatest is an advertisement for trade tear. Look what we have done wrong. When trump took office he canceled transfers for men who were cleared to leave Guantanamo prison. He also campaigned to fill that prison. Back up this morning I watched President Obama talking about Guantanamo Bay. Which by the way which by the way we are keeping open which we are up and we're going to load it up with some bad dudes polygamy we'll get a loaded up of those forty men who remain today at Guantanamo Bay prison. Five of them are now involved in. What's known as the nine eleven trial for almost eight years? This infuriating and Kafka esque case has dragged on. There have been at least forty pretrial hearings the case is completely marred by CIA torture at black sites now. New questions about the F. B. I.'s involvement have made a path to conviction even more clouded. The government's obsession with keeping every detail. Classified continues to add fuel to an already out of control fire. Arguments abound over. What can even be said in court. Most of what happened to these men where they were how they retreated. It's classified we've reported on intercepted in the past that some of these men like College Muhammad known as Kfi am the alleged mastermind of the nine eleven attacks. I went through secret. Cia operated outposts known as black sites. We heard reporter Carol Rosenberg Talk. About how the currency I director Gina Hassle may have run a black site at Guantanamo Bay itself. And I look at the words on the page and I'm like Gina. Hospital ran a black site at Guantanamo. It's been widely reported. The she certainly ran a black site in Thailand and the Guantanamo episode continues to be. You know really mysterious. And then I'd be I go on a mission to try and figure out the truthfulness of this and as you would know Jeremy those who know for sure can't say but those who know the program have a context where they can talk about it. I'm not saying it's a fact. I'm saying this piece of information was declassified. The CIA won't confirm it won't deny it. One of the reasons it makes perfect sense. Is that what they have? Acknowledged is that she had a number of covert short term assignments that they will not describe throughout her career and that would fit perfectly within it. Defense lawyers over these years of pretrial hearings have argued that because of CIA torture and even hassles past involvement a fair trial for these men is impossible. Here are defense attorneys alka Prod Hon and James Connell. In a recent documentary called the trial describing issues that they faced as part of the legal team for our Al Baluchi. This is a death penalty trial. And we're supposed to be entitled to every scrap of evidence that could be the case everywhere we go. We're looking for information that we have not gotten from. Us government like where they may have been held on which the government has said absolutely flat out. They consider to be classified. And we'll never tell us that's sort of crucial to the case for years. Everything that Amar said was classified into you. Know a he said Excuse me can I go to the restroom that was classified that was exceptionally complicated? One of the few things that we've sort of one in the case is having that system rolled back and so now he's ordinary day to day. Communications are not classified but even now anything that he wants to say about his time. In black sites we have to have reviewed for classification. All that's just one example of self inflicted wounds that the United States government imposes on itself and the people who work for the make things super complicated. We're going to hear more from Prod on in a moment but first in January the intercepts Margot Williams went down to Camp Justice at Guantanamo to cover an extraordinary moment at the war court where Dr James Mitchell was brought in for questioning. Mitchell of course is the CIA contractor. Who with no previous experience in interogations designed the so called enhanced interrogation techniques program which amounted to nothing but torture and produced zero results? Mitchell over the decades has not been quiet. He's written a book called enhanced interrogation. He's been the subject of a documentary in a one at a room. Or is that I? I don't remember which journalists it was started about me was somehow walked to the front gate of the agency paying them. The door said you know the torture. And they'll be don let me in. And he's given many interviews over the years. The core problem lies at the way that the current versions of the Koran and the had decent. The violence that are in that are accepted as being the true word of Allah passed down unerringly and our PC culture prevents us from challenging that in a civil case in two thousand Seventeen Mitchell and his partner and torture. Bruce Jessen were questioned in a videotaped. Deposition we were soldiers doing what we were instructed to do. This is Bruce. Jessen a former military psychologist who became a CIA contractor and his colleague. James Mitchell Any expertise in the art of interview. My God I'm a clinical psychologist interviews or what we do. They've been described as the architects of the extremely harsh interrogation program used at secret. Cia prisons after nine eleven. But that case against the two psychologists was settled Mitchell and Jessen have never faced criminal prosecution. Mitchell appeared for the first time in open court last month. He's previously admitted to personally waterboarding college Muhammad in the Guantanamo court. He sat just yards away from that. Very prisoner Margot Williams. Was there for all of it. And while there she brought her audio recorder and attended some press briefings from defense lawyers. Dr Mitchell in particular. His book talks about how he knows. Some of the requirements came from dialectic right and given the volume of requirements that came directly from the the. I you know our guests would be that he had some knowledge. Both of them had some knowledge that these were going from the FBI and there were FBI agents involved in Washington in Palm. Who were coming up with these questions for with the nine eleven investigation And that's what we want to find out is it is. How much did they know? While they were torturing these men that was attorney Alka Prod Han these briefings from the defense teams were. The only audio Margot was allowed to record to explain more about this hearing and what she sought. Camp Justice. Here is Margot Williams. I was at Guantanamo in January of this year to watch the fortieth pretrial hearing session in the trial against the nine eleven defendants who are detainees in Guantanamo from the countryside. Jarve middle this report when the media and the non governmental observers and the family members of victims of the nine eleven attacks. Come down to Guantanamo to watch these hearings in person we sit behind a glass in a kind of gallery and there's four rows of chairs we can see what's going on in the courtroom but what we hear is on a forty second delay and we see that forty second delay video on screens above us so we can at the same time. See what's going on. Live and watch it and hear it on a forty second delay. The reason for the forty second delay is that if any classified information gets mentioned. And we're not. We don't have clearances to hear this classified information. They turn off the sound. They put white noise on and the screen goes to white. This is probably what most consequential hearings we have had yet in the branding on the eight year of pre trial hearings the nine eleven case and of course during these two weeks we will be taken the testimony of Dr Mitchell and Jessen who were involved in session of thirty eight hundred gram. This is the second time these five defendants in the nine eleven attacks have been what before the military court? It's a military court. It's not like a regular court and it was originally with the Bush administration brought them before the court and then when President Obama became president. And if you remember the first day of his administration he said he was going to close Guantanamo. I've said repeatedly that I to close Guantanamo and I will follow through on that I've said repeatedly that America doesn't torture and I'm GonNa make sure that we don't torture Those are Those are part and parcel of an effort to regain America's moral stature in the world. The idea was they were going to bring those charged to the US and charge them with crimes under the Federal Judiciary Southern District of New York and then Congress voted to not allow the Guantanamo detainees to come to the United States. They could not come to trial in the United States. So the trial had to start over again under the military commissions in Guantanamo since two thousand twelve this case which the case against the nine eleven defendants. It's a capital case. They are being charged with crimes that can result in the death penalty and pretrial hearings have been continuing in this case since two thousand twelve. This hearing was the fortieth pretrial hearing. We're GONNA hear a lot of different things from Dr Mitchell and Jessen during these a couple of weeks we're going to talk about the FBI. Steve involvement in what has been called up till now the program. But in fact is shaping up to have been a full government program of torture for these detainees that turned into a full government. Cover up for the purpose of the current prosecution and eventual execution of astrology over the past couple of years. What the defense attorneys have been able to discover and put forward is that the FBI was also involved all along in the providing questions to the detainees while they were in the black sites so the F. B. I. did not have clean hands. They were not at arm's length from the whole process while the defendants are being tortured. That's kind of what the issue is right now. Should those interviews at the FBI did after two thousand six? Should those be thrown out as well and then? What do they have to pursue for the case Dr James Mitchell and Dr Bruce Jessen? They are psychologists and they were asked by the CIA to help come up with some techniques with which they could interrogate these top prisoners that were NCAA custody. After their captures. I disagree with the suggestion that we were architects. Because we want breaking new ground. You know in the sense that that architects do. This is the first time they've appeared in open court and more significantly. I believe one one of the reasons that lot of press went down to Guantanamo to watch this was it was of course the first time they had seen these five men that they knew from having interrogated them in the past so the defendants were for the first time facing the men who had interrogated them. Ncaa black sites. Are you able to see how your art watching no today? He yes Mr Rees told us that when he asked Mr how Sally about what he thought of Mitchell. He kind of shrugged and said arrogant. One word to use was so he's also described in this angry when When he had had the the running with him in two thousand and three when the disorder? But this has made reaction really was not so much to Tim Mitchell but was He was actually very appreciative. what do you mean by that appreciative? That somebody he had seen when he was first brought here has actually been brought on to explain what he was doing. No he was. He was appreciative of our effort. Someone's behalf and In a in a way there was smoking. Ruis was quite outspoken in his questioning of Dr Mitchell. He confronted Dr Mitchell repeatedly with incidents that he characterizes torture at the end of the day he played a clip in which Dr Mitchell himself kind of made a joke about us. The use of the word torture. You know Y- extremely use the word torture. Torture is a crime. Well Yeah I mean I I mean locally and he used the word torture although he didn't say torture tortures I mean to me. It's fucking semantics. But at any rate I turn and said after objections to the word torture by the prosecution. I know tortures word. I'll tell you what judge I'm not gonNA sanitize this for their concerns in. This hearing a lot of psychological terminology was used to to make it sound like there is a academic and scientific logic and method to the kind of techniques. I'm saying techniques that kind of torture that was used on these prisoners. Some of the phrases used were intelligence requirements abusive drift countermeasures to Resistance Pavlovian response learned helplessness negative reinforcement a conditioning strategy. They showed a chart of moral disengagement one of the techniques is something called walling in which the guy is thrown against a wall and the wall is safe because it's made of plywood and it's constructed so that it bounces it's not solid when walling is used the term walling. They use a beach towel to wrap around the prisoners next so he won't be harmed and then later when even when they're in a Non Coercive Situation. They take the towel. These doctors took the towel and put it just so the the prisoner could see them so they would know that if they did not behave or answer the questions that they might have to have towel around their neck and be thrown against a wall again they called it a Pedalo Vian tool and so these same guys were in the room being reminded of the what they didn't endured as prisoners in the black sites by the site of the the people who had used these methods on them. It's not as if I'm overwhelmed by it because I've spent eighteen years reading testimony and reports about torture. It was striking in this proceeding at these hearings with with Dr Mitchell who actually conducted these interrogations and debriefings and used used these what he calls techniques and I'm using that word too but the preponderance of euphemism in these proceedings. Did kind of overwhelm me. Margot. Williams is the research editor for investigations at the intercept years before names were publicly. Released Margot compiled. The first list of the Guantanamo detainees and assembled a comprehensive Gitmo database for the New York Times. Her latest article for the intercept is titled at Guantanamo Bay. Torture apologised take refuge in empty. Code words and euphemisms more of Margot's reporting on pretrial hearing of James Mitchell can be found at the intercept dot COM. Margot Williams spoke with intercepted associate producer. Elise Swain and that does it for this special bonus episode of intercepted until next week. I'm Jeremy Scahill.
2260 - The Third Way is the Past, Socialism is the Future w/ Paul Heideman
"You are listening to a Free Berge of majority report with Sam Cedar to support this show and get another fifty minutes daily program go to Jordi he dot. FM Please John Ready. It's Thursday Eh. January Twenty Third Twenty Twenty Michael Brooks. This is the five time award winning majority report but broadcasting live steps industrially ravaged go honest canal in the heartland of America downtown Brooklyn USA on today's program. Paul Heidtmann author of a new piece in the Jakobsen. The third way is the past. Socialism is the future what really represents the future of our politics the death of the third way but also it's history in the nineties and how we actually reverse global far-right authoritarianism. And speaking of which Bernie Sanders is surging folks. Wbu Our poll shows Bernie. Yeah with a twelve point. Lead in New Hampshire twenty nine points to seventeen points for Mayo peop- fourteen points for Joe Biden even as a new Newsweek poll shows Bernie Sanders with the largest head to head lead over Donald Donald Trump of anybody in the democratic field. In fact most Democrats are leading Donald Trump with a couple of big exceptions like The New York Times loved Amy Klobuchar. She's trailing trump by five points polling indicates that trump and Biden may come to regret convincing. America that Bernie Sanders is honest and uninterruptible and most of the people will regret the fact that that's apparently what he is. Sanders wins the California. The California's wins in the endorsement of a major California Union. opping his lead among Union endorsers. Another day of the impeachment. The trial as Democrats continue to assemble a convincing case and Zoe lofgren aspirin has to explain that keeping a document classified cannot just be to avoid embarrassment Camaro majority of Americans now support removing Donald Trump from office San Francisco. DHS Boden ends cash bail for all criminal cases in a significant in victory for Justice Texas thousands of kids are losing Medicaid coverage each month donald trump opens the door for cuts in Medicare and social security because guess what he's a Republican and because he's also Republican. The trump administration moves to get rid of restrictions and controls on strength to protect streams and wetlands in a boon to developers. I following the lead of Maryland's environment destroying Republican governor. CIA said colleges this defense torture before a Guantanamo court and Chinese cities canceled New Year's celebrations in an effort to stop a virus outbreak the UK. Tory government and parliament have voted against a measure. Protecting Children Ref Child. Refugees barbarism is global and the Germany urges Bolivia's next leader to revive a lithium appeal which was in doubt before the coup that removed Evo Morales one dead and seven injured in downtown Seattle after a shooting incident. All that and much much more on today's majority report so the polls are looking really good and I would end this. Poll this is the get to this later but this poll that was just put out by. Wb You are which is the the Basically southern New England boston-based NPR regional station. This is significant This is putting Bernie with a twelve point lead and by and falling to third By a couple points behind Buddha judge And then then obviously and then we have worn at thirteen. We've closed short six. We've Gabbard at five Yang at five star at to Bloomberg one and former a two term neighbouring governor deval Patrick at one And this is interesting because I would say here. Not only Bernie opening it up but if gabbing Yang don't stay at five percent and those votes go and those voters vote. I'm assuming those would probably go to Bernie if there's one or two percent of Warren voters that are committed to some type of actual sort of progressive agenda and they see the tea leaves they'll break for Bernie to So this is very encouraging and it comes on the heels of this argument that they're having about social security which is incredibly important. Now we and Sam Outline this very well yesterday for decades. Joe Biden has advocated for cutting social security Medicare. He flirted with a balanced budget amendment. As well he has been somebody who has along with building his political brandon nineteen eighteen eighties by assembling the prison. Industrial being a major assembler the prison industrial complex architect of the war on drugs and other class asked and racist Prison policing policies. He was somebody who really wanted to prove his bona fetus by cutting social by being being a Democrat who was willing to a misery American seniors and assault the legacy of the new deal and again Obama and Biden put vicious cuts. That's on the table. which the only reason they didn't go through was because Republicans didn't WANNA deal? That was seventy five percent on their terms. They wanted one hundred percent. And you know. Ideally an apology for Obama being African American right like this was the Republican Party that they were dealing with. And obviously we're still dealing with. These are some Google search terms which they've stayed steady spiked. What is this January? Eighteenth starting January eighteenth but the story very state alive Biden social security and. What's also interesting? If you look at the subregion trends district Columbia's number one obviously then Vermont Iowa number three three Oregon Delaware. Then go to the next page. Number six is New Hampshire so these are great and look. I mean it's great because of course I think heading into the last couple of weeks here and Sanders and Biden arguing about Biden's history of advocating cuts to social security when Biden strongest demo is older voters great Secondly it matters. It's important policy. We need to not only not cut it. We need to expanded like Bernie Sanders advocates and third. This is going to be a big problem. The general election. But maybe a little bit less of a problem than I thought a couple of weeks ago or even a couple of days ago and of course another usually opportunity if we're wise enough to nominate Bernie Sanders and twenty sixteen. Donald Trump had had the sense to lie his ass off about Medicare and social security. We're not GONNA cut it. You can't cut it now. Anybody who knew anything new of course a he's lying fine and of course. Donald Trump is fundamentally untrustworthy on everything besides racism and personal enrichment but also Paul Ryan himself. Paul Ryan who was the you know his whole purpose in public life was give money to rich people a misery middle class poor and working king people and he said in twenty sixteen. Don't worry about what this guy says on the campaign trail we're going to have the same congressional agenda and of course they did with the massive wealth giveaway in two thousand thousand seventeen to the rich which trump still brags about on. They have been trying. They tried to gut The achievements of Obamacare and of course Medicare and social obscurity have steadily been on the chopping block as well as you know vicious policies towards food stamps. which the trump administration has also pushed so this is an enemy of working people because Donald Trump is a republican and it seems now and will listen to some of the you know the gibberish and nonsense nonsense mumbling here from trump in this clip on CNN CNBC but the major takeaway of this is that Donald Trump now sounds a lot more like Mitt Romney in Paul Ryan which is both more transparent? Should be obvious to everybody. And it's great electoral opportunity for some with a clear record on social security. This is can be a major political advantage if you nominate Joe Biden. You'RE GONNA muddle at the hell up because Donald trump will lie lion lion lion lion. Lie The press won't uncover Properly and Joe Biden's records compromised now Bernie Sanders with a clear record on social security. And yes I know. They dug up some quote from the mid nineties. Bernie said the program might need some adjustments. Bernie Sanders definitely almost a thousand percent talking about lifting the cap on wealthy people getting taxed to fund social security already. He's his name more generous inflation adjustments or generous inflation adjustments. He fought against chain. CPI when Obama proposed that he fought against every single deal L. to cut it and has been on record supporting expanding it so please but let's not do the bullshit. This could be a good Bernie campaign yet. I dare one last question. Entitlements ever be on your plate at some point they will be. We have tremendous growth. We're going to have tremendous growth this next here. It'll be toward the end of the year. The growth is going to be incredible and at the right time. We will take a look at that. You know that's actually the easiest of all things if you look because it's such a willing to do some of the things that you said you wouldn't do in the past. Though in terms of the winter we also have assets that we've never had. I mean we never had growth like this. We never had a consumer that was taken in through different means over ten thousand dollars a family we never had a kind of The kind of things that we have our country is the hottest in the world to the hottest Takada me and we have the best unemployment numbers. We've ever had African American Asian American Hispanics doing so incredibly best. They've ever done a black best. They've ever done African American. The numbers are incredible. The poverty numbers the unemployment. The employment I don't know if he does he think African the American and blacker different things as he. I don't know that's his that we don't need to hear the rest of it. I mean. Obviously he's just going to go on and ramble on. But this is a good preview of the general election if you're Bernie Sanders you can seize on that and run circles around him because absolutely as it is always the case. Republicans Social Security's on the chopping block. But those security could definitely also be on the chopping block with Joe Biden. And then the second part when you start getting into a game about the economy it's GonNa take somebody like Bernie Sanders to say. Well let's get real here. Skyrocketing inequality millions of Americans working multiple jobs just to survive if a new economy which is downwardly mobile low paying health. Care more and more outta reach for people. This is the real all state of the economy and by the way this was the real state of the economy that you lied about doing something about in two thousand sixteen. If you're you know Biden again it gets more tricky. Because what are you gonNA do. You're going to say well you know. Look yes. Obama did he got us out of the recession. And so on. But those those the the bragging of the Obama Obama record is more analogous to what trump is bagging about right. which is that there is some there is conventional economic growth? There has been for several years now now of course we could go into recession and we could. Have you know there could be major economic problems on the horizon. But you need somebody with the credibility to talk about the real state of the economy for most people in this country and it ain't so rosy as most people know in their actual experience regardless of the number so I would love to instead of running against two thousand sixteen economic con Artists Donald Trump. Let's run against Republican Establishment Donald Trump. Let's run against Mitt Romney except except bloated and with weird skin odd comments about his daughter. I'm into it. I'm ready for that race. Let's run it the Laura. You're getting nervous. CALMED DOWN SO K.. The show version of Vic Burger capping off the closing arguments segment event on the before as we as we rocket towards Iowa New Hampshire here. Valentine's Day is special. But it's only one day. Luckily there's something that can help make date night all throughout the year. I'm talking about hunt killer an activity activity that you can experience with a loved one every month. Roll up your sleeves and work together to solve a realistic murder mystery. Hunter killer thrust you and your your friends and family into an ongoing murder mystery investigation. The game brings people together but challenging them to code to decode ciphers examining clues and solve puzzles. It's like an escape room delivered right to your door. Hunter killer has two thousand five star reviews on trust pilot fast and fast company named them as one of the most innovative of entertainment companies of two thousand nineteen plus part of the proceeds of every box goes to the cold-case foundation. Sam raves leaves about this on a daily basis. I have an opportunity to play it yet but I definitely plan to Sam raves about it. He talks about how it's bringing him and he's got a teenage daughter. She's out doing her life. She wants you know she doesn't necessarily want to hang out with Sam but this game is so enticing and so fun and such a great activity that it's an awesome bonding exercise. And they're having a great time literally brings the guy like clear. Joy Talks about it off air. It's awesome right now just for our listeners. You can go to hunter killer dot com slash last majority and use Promo Code majority at checkout for twenty percent off your first box hunting killer dot com slash majority for twenty percent off to show support for our podcast. That's hunter-killer dot com slash majority. We will be right back with Paul Hyman Welcome back that's the majority report joining us. Now is Paul Heidtmann. He's a PhD candidate and sociology at New York University. And he's also the author of the Third Way is the past socialism. Is the future future. A new column for Jackson magazine Read It online. Check out the link on the homepage. Paul how you doing and doing great. Thanks for having me on. It's my pleasure so Paul Paul this For those of us who are not a nineties kids on define the third way for us so the third way was a political project that really began the kosher in the nineteen eighty s most notably in the United States in the United Kingdom and I think it's important to be clear that the third way is a kind of centrism of certain centrist political project. But all all centrists are not the third way so so the PSI The piece was kind of charting. The rise and fall of a very specific centrist political whole project in the nineteen in the nineteen eighties came to Germany in the nineteen nineties in those two countries in the US and the UK Both country is the third way was a project. centrist in the Democratic Party and the on the Labor Party That saw aw the the kind of their test of modernizing those parties both parties were thought to be kind of clinging to pass it dogmas about the welfare-state things like that about you know -regulation And the partisans of Third Way argued that this this was not appropriate for a world under link globalization Things like that You know they're they're really obsessed with kind of Thomas Friedman ask vision of this kind of exploding globalization modernization. Changing everything we have to rethink everything All of that kind of stuff. So and this is the again I I mean the most prominent leaders representing this would be bill. Clinton and Tony Blair but just to be clear I mean. Would you say if we wanted to broaden it out I know. I know that it isn't just the center. It is a particular project but would it be fair to say. Obviously the other other prominent leaders in the nineties that would kind benefit would be everybody from you know Tableau Mbeki Gerhard Schroeder and Ricky Cardozo maybe Massimo D'Alema but then then moving forward even though they use a very different rhetoric. Would it be fair to kind of also Slot Justin Trudeau mccrone Barack Obama. Joe Biden Hillary Clinton in this as well so that's that's a staggering array of political history. Right there I think I I think I would tend to kind of limit. The Third Way to be attempt to chart out a new path for party is that had you know some kind of attachment to social democracy so like You know I mean obviously it's the US the Democrats that's a complicated question but Both of you take the UK and the US kind of paradigmatic examples. The rise of like third way politics. It's all about our parties. Used to meet about this now. They need to be about something different now. They need to be about opening up markets. They need to be about modernizing the need to be about competition right like these need to be the watchwords of our party news and so I think someone like Schroder Germany. You know that that definitely apply to but I'm a little more hesitant especially if there's someone like mccrone the WHO You know kind of the sweet generis bigger That is not gonNA leave the kind of institution behind when he was finally kicked off. Does you know And so so I think I think it's most helpful with you. The Third Way as an attempt to reorient these political parties away from any kind attachment to the labor movement to institutions of the welfare state. Things like that and then the US UK example that was also attached to a quite muscular stewart. Foreign Policy of Rob Right. So yeah you can you just to really nail this down can give a few examples of maybe one each each either from the UK and the US kind of but just are emblematic of domestic and foreign policy and the Third Way. Yeah so so. The United States the third way is really institutionalizing. The Democratic Leadership Council which is built kind of formed in the nineteen eighty s As a as a conscious attempt to move Democratic Party to the right After a Reagan's success after Nixon Success Reagan success Toil all successions in particular Whole series of conditions in the Democratic Party attempting to move it to the right and the DLC was formed in that in the eighties Really kind of oriented on a generation of conservative southern Democratic Governors Bill Clinton of course the The the most important and he would go on to share our president of the in the early nineties shortly before being elected president and and for for Clinton kind of T. policy is probably welfare reform. Take right So before Clinton Welfare was a categorical grant program which the Federal Government gave money me to the states. Instead your how you have to spend it right you have to spend that money for On on on welfare expenditure right. Clinton Welfare Bill Nineteen Ninety six. Sheen's welfare to a block grant which meant that. The governor of the federal government now giving money to the states for purposes purpose the poverty reduction but it saying you know you have wide latitude over how to spend. It's actually huge amounts of welfare spending now is spent on things like conservative of marriage promotion policies. You know things like that right because the State say oh well if we can get people get married you know that will reduce poverty until they're allowed you know they're not just giving money to four people anymore. They're spending it on kind of boondoggle programs in punitive workfare measures things like that all visiting like modernizing the old welfare. Our system is attached to kind of an old economy that doesn't exist anymore in the new economy. We need this new lean evaded welfare system right that that would allergy the third way in the United States in the U K. I think Via Iraq war is kind of the keys on the key moments of of me Blair's premiership and and in the UK. It's important to see that in. The context of the Labor Party's on Aleutian. So in the early Nineteen Eighty S. The Labor Party's leadership was for unilateral nuclear denuclearization with leaving NATO right like a very left wing foreign policy. It's the way it was not like at all Unusual among kind of left of Center parties outside of the United States like even the Liberal Party and Canada. ITTA that thought Trudeau's how part of very suspicious of NATO thinks. Oh by but this this political heritage and the Labor Party was totally totally jettison by Blair over the course of his premiership attached to attach the British kind of morning more firmly To the United States in this partnership which you know started in in the wars in in in in Yugoslavia on in particular with flash and the words and and then When the Blair government emerged as the most important junior partner to the United States invasion of Iraq in two thousand three it It was an attempt to both kind of reassert Britain's Interior role in the world. Right ever since the British empire decisively falling apart in the nineteen sixties. There'd been this kind of post imperial Malays in the UK and this kind of noon muscular internationalism almost attempt to beat that back And An assertion that like that Britain was not going to be An enemy or rather arrival of of the of the US on the world stage but was going to be. Totally linked to the United States is broader global political project. You know a certain vision of capital school boys and all of that so you bring this into conversation with an and some of this will be new people some of this probably I mean certainly the general. Ah outlines of this aren't just the idea if you wanted to really simplify it of social democratic parties. Moving to the right. But it wasn't as simple as that because there was this for you know first of all what's the relationship between the genuine ideological convictions of obviously right wing politicians in an objective. Sense like Tony Blair. Bill Clinton marketeer politicians versus other politicians caught in this who may have not had the same may have been more along the lines of well. We don't really want to do this this but this is the only thing that's possible in the eighties and nineties which is much more justifiable view than some people might realize about that. We would agree with it and then this but then this idea. You mentioned Thomas Freeman as embarrassing. It is he says it is he would be the patron saint of these people the emphasis on innovation on being with what's new and on radical change and this and all of this type of thing and in a weird way. And you make this connection that is sort of oddly the most Marxist part of it in a very bastardized than dumbed down sense and we can go this and the you know the management training manuals of this time where you know like some you know some silly management Guru who's advising companies on Dan downsizing or you you know tacky branding campaigns you know if you look at those books from like the late nineties early odds like definitely. Let's you know. Let's let's throw in a Mao quote you battle and and so and certainly in the UK where there was more of an actual left some of the most kind of Arnhem Blairites had had you know trotskyite roots in the eighties and they sort of brought along with them. This certain understanding which you do you know you say is found in Marx and Lenin Lennon of of that Marxism is about a future known established for the past. No ideas taken from premodernity. It's about you know hyper hyper modernization. But for justice instead of her capitalism so is there a through line there In terms of a certain way of looking at Marxism awesome and how Third Way discourse developed. Oh Yeah I definitely think. It's particularly strong in case of the UK where where in the nineteen eighties. The magazine Marxism today. which was associated with the Communist Party was one of the leading apostles of new times right that capitalism it wasn't was changing and that the old politics of labor weren't going to be sufficient And on people from that you definitely ended up around a around Blair Then yeah you know you read some of this stuff and it sounds like the first dozen or so pages of the Communist Manifesto. All that is solid Nelson Air Right. All that is holiest profane all the traditional relationships between people are offended And you know you. Yeah you read these kind of like Thomas Friedman. I'm sounds kind of like that and so there was a sense in which They were able to draw on what I think has historically been one of the the strength strength from right to left the historic kind of appeal of the left was You know the Bourgeoisie Revolution. and and they gave us capitalism and outside for workers to lead our revolution. We're GONNA have socials right. Where the where the net stuff in history and of course the? The course of the Twentieth Century A lot of confidence in that that particular history of socialism is kind of the logical next step And in some ways I think the third way was was cashing in on that. Lack of confidence in the last You know in the nineteen eighties and the nineties in particular but at the same time the theme the piece when you really dig into their vision of ceaseless change that ends up being visit than which nothing is really going to change right so so this is when Francis Fukuyama rights and history write an essay about how a liberal capitalist democracy is kind of Final Resting Place of history right like the final form of human society And so it was. The idea was kind of like there. There's a world fearful exchange but in which nothing fundamental Philip GonNa Change right all the changes ultimately this level definitely getting cellphone right. I remember the cellphones now. If the world sort of change but the social relations that make makeup for society the forms of Hierarchy Organizer Society all of that is GonNa stay the same forever now right and I think that was also really a real a real weakness of the Third Way One one one reason for failure and so explain that failure and then the kind of way in which ironically socialism reemerges is an even just as personified by Bernie Sanders. Right is like no. Actually maybe and maybe even you know in this is maybe where Marx and Lenin were missing the point to we actually do need to retrieve something that's older and and and And and has been like a loss tradition. That's worth rediscovering. Put those two things at the relationship. Yeah I just love the kind of the settlement with which the pundits like tree the appeal of Bernie too young. You know young voters voters under thirty five or so. They just can't wrap their heads around. Drives them crazy. Why are they voting the late seventies? It doesn't make any sense But you know when you anything it actually makes perfect. Something and Burns appeal smoked. I think directly from the the foundation of the third way on so. Yeah if you if you wish it. The nineteen ninety late nineteen ninety s The third way seems like a Juggernaut. Right right like Tony Blair as prime minister of the UK. This moving forward with all kinds of plans is in the. US very high approval rating has pushed through welfare reform. The economy is booming It really seems like The the third way prescription was was right. That these politics are Kinda didn't think with the Times Don't think the next decade and a half or so things change and in the UK. It's really Iraq. War that on does the project Lisa's such a massive scale of opposition inside the UK That it completely satyrs the the the Blairite Political Project So that the you know. The the Labor Party's popularity is driven way down And well player and then his successor author Gordon Brown are able to kind of through until two thousand ten. What's really notable that? Since then the Blairite it's really been unable to constitute a kind of coherence. Hegemonic Force and the Labor Party you know you had no abandons a leader who is a representative hundred of them the soft launch not the tradition right The Blairite tradition is further to the right. And and you know I think the last week or so just phillips who's kind the the most prominent defender of that tradition in the party today announced she was stepping down from from Contending for leadership so there's been or real exhaustion. Yeah and just and Rebecca Long Bailey obviously is the person in our corner In terms of continuing continuing the defense of of really trying to fight for a socialist position but STARMER cure starmer. Who's sort of you know the the the candidate of the center I mean he's he's making I mean he's Blair writing the Blairites? He's he's saying you know. We need a party. That embraces. Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair which is of course. You know I mean it's you know it's questionable but it certainly rebuke to Blair because blares out saying we need up route. Everything's do the Corbin root and branch. Yeah totally it's they're they're just completely unable to kind of seize the high ground in the debates. I'm we know you know I'm sure they'll end up backing star. But he is not of them right in the sense. Tara Phillips was So so in the UK. The Iraq Iraq war is really. What look at the end of of the third way into hegemony force in the Labor Party in the United States? It's not nearly so dramatic partially Chirac. The Rock war is carried out by the Republicans right. I mean if the disaster the Iraq war been on the Democrats neck. It's very possible it would have come earlier in the United States. It wasn't it was on Bush and so the Democrats were able to come in in two thousand six congressional elections and then in two thousand eight the presidential elections the Party of the review if you could be Iraq war and then you know in particular. They got lucky with the timing in two thousand eight where they were able to become as the party. That's GONNA clean up the financial crisis and yet it was that very very way. That cleanup was conducted that I think led to the kind of flow disillusionment and I think it is affairs. Paul Obama a politician of the third way in the sense right I think that You know even he was running against Hillary Clinton in two thousand eight the the facts and the leadership contest in two thousand eight was between Clinton and Obama to just how thoroughly Bill Clinton's kind of DLC L. C. vision of the party had one right That that entire debate with between two politicians if you very very closely to the third way line And so you know the recovery kind of preceded and we just had this incredibly unequal recovery rates you know the Spiel of the losses to homeowners number of people you know people who lost their homes. slow ticking up that's the despair right All of this I think was Slowly Ptolemy now the edifice of of third way politics inside the Democratic Party and so this slow collapse of the Democratic Party in so many states under Obama right up the the persistent loss of the party on the state level And and all that when two thousand sixteen king around The Party as an institution was it's totally blindsided by trump and unable to respond in any kind of effective way right and then sanders run exposed. Just how big an audience. There was college inside the Democratic Party for fundamentally different political position for different political orientation. And so so these So you know in the UK The Iraq war is kind of detonation of Blairism in. US you'll Bama presidency was kind of a slow will power. We now of their politics. I think you know to this day. We're seeing Very little capacity for For Third Way type of politicians organized on their own terms. They're actually being forced to tail anchors right and as you point out I mean whether or not I I understand and the more kind of precision way of defining third way but I do think there's there is a much more elastic way of defining it as this sort of like I mean frankly especially at this point as it's really come to a complete intellectual standstill as just sort of you know socially moderate market market politics essentially right. And that's why Biden is the carrier of that tradition right now and he's running basically entirely tirelessly on you know things. Were you know better under Obama. Let's just get to that so in contrast you know if you asked me with my agendas it's change change. You know you asked me what my agenda is. It's you know Obama not I trump Obama not trump there in this new like and and you know it's it's actually funny because you you know I don't WanNa say he's like Don Don Quixote because Tony Blair's making an obscene amount of money in private equity dictatorships and you know they're actually. I just saw new project. He's GonNa he's GonNa be the I believe it's the Saudis or the Murad. He's the head of Softbank the Guy who helped propel rework. And and Tony Blair have been contracted by the Indonesian government to help them design their new capital. That was the dystopia story of the week. So all being is Ed Tony Blair but Tony Blair when he intervenes in British politics. Is this very don quixote feeling about him because he still has. It looks a a lot more tired and everything but he still has the presentation he still has the style he still has the the communicative capacity. And he's just saying exactly. I mean gene. And now he's reacting against Corbin but his basic you know. We need to be innovative. We need to change oriented. And you're like like I don't even know what you're talking about right like you know. We all at least knew generally what this meant in the nineties. And now it's just you know purely at the level of cliche that being said before we wrap it up I mean core. Is this dent in the narrative and I think of course we have to acknowledge brexit. We have to acknowledge an unprecedented and vicious propaganda campaign against him which I have no doubt would also if we really got into it implicat- different intelligence services and I I mean and and has a lot of stories to say about media monopolies and by the way these raw material things are also something that we in the left have to consider. There is an enormous amount of obviously power wealth and ideological hegemony amongst the ruling classes globally. So these are big challenges. I mean that's that's in a main story about Corbin but it's still whether you know even with all of those caveats. It's a failure of our models. So what's the. How does this affect our narrative about this sort of rees a surgeon of socialism? Especially when somebody with such clarity and integrity could be torn apart by buffoon like Boris Johnson. Yeah I mean I think it means up there fall isn't necessarily arise right. You know That the the end of the third way doesn't mean an automatic victory for socialism. May you know it might mean like muddling around until some new. Tony Blair layer comes around with a couple of different of buzzwords. That'll sound new for a while. You know Um there's not there's nothing to notable of about social fries and you should never mistake the weakness of our enemies our strength and I think the the Corden loss was a devastating reminder of that And I think it you you know I think it's also a testament to The way that that Third Way politics in particular Howard out the the Labor Party. Did you know that the Labor Party institution had become totally disconnected from traditional Labour voters. It's huge parts of the country and the Corden was able to brace an influx in particular Like urban youth basically awesome awesome awesome educated urban youth into the party who came in and massive numbers but were unable to make up for that hollowing out And in that sense and and I think that's that's something that we're probably based on the Democratic Party to you know The fifth With Bernie manages to winning primaries all of a sudden the weakness of the Democrats In many states community comes of like one of the less number one problem you know that somebody Crumley becomes our problem conversely another reason why I mean it's not GonNa make up for organization but thank you Hillary Clinton because I mean your the general election to have democratic standard bearer B.. Someone Hillary Clinton hates will be incredibly helpful pivotal places to mobilize mobilize people. That will be a trust builder for him. In a place like Wisconsin. Yeah you wonder if her and Blair are like comparing notes behind the scenes of like well. I think there's going to be really successful so I'm GonNa give you know. They managed to both hit the wrong. You know it's just so persistently that Pretty impressive level of coordination in you say just as a final note you say Old Fashioned Socialism. It turns out is the good old thing best suited for combating the bad new do things of modern capitalism. So make that case in the last minute here. Yeah I think you know. We're we're seeing the world and what's the problem problem of monitoring capitalism. I've been dramatize of never before and I think also in the United States right now and we thought we before the to an extent. I think we're seeing even more right now. The the power of a basic socialist vision of the working class needs to stand together against the people at the top of society You know every day you're just reading about San within the podcast about Sanders supporters. Things like that. You're seeing the way that that very basic old socialist vision can animate people and unprovided a sense of purpose really lacking elsewhere in politics right now. Let's get the very powerful thing. In inciting thing Paul Heidtmann the pieces third third ways the past socialism of the future read in Jackman link on the show website. Paul really appreciate your time. I think Michael Thank you. All right folks Let me say this first. Today's show is brought to you in part by hunter killer and activity that allows you to work as a team and investigate crime in the comfort of your home the bad ass murder. It's the bad ass murder investigation where you decode ciphers examined clues and solve puzzles. Go to hunter killer dot com slash. Majority use Promo Code Majority of the checkout for twenty percent off your first box. That's hunter killer dot com slash majority Promo Code majority become a member of the majority report today majority dot fm slash become a member. That's how this whole thing happens if you haven't already click subscribe in the Bell Button on Youtube Youtube and checkout just coffee dot dot co dot co up sorry fair trade tea coffee chocolate chocolate by yourself. The majority report blend. It's a win for everyone. Workers Ecology the CO-OP economy the majority report independent unbought. DOC on Boston media. Go over to the Michael Brown show. Youtube page incredibly proud that the first half of our interview with former President Lula led the Silva's up former Brazilian president political prisoner Some great new information on the go with Iran but a crash course in southern solidarity. US imperialism. It's you know obviously really proud of it if you haven't yet over there and watch it and while you're over there click subscribe had been the Bell Button on the Michael Brook show on Youtube. Were at well over. One hundred thousand subs now and continue to grow. We're very excited about it. And we're excited to see you at the Bell House February seventh seventh with a loan of Minkowski Matt Bender Brandon Sutton Harvey Kaye. And Ben Burgess. It's going to be really really fun. Go Bri your tickets and you can get all information for all things. ESPN BS DOT FM. And of course the best thing to do and other will find out you get early ticket. Sales April third. Were doing a live show in Austin Texas with Anna Cass. Burian and patriotic members got the early bird discounts of patriotic dot com slash. TM MVS. See Soon Matt folks check out the Literary Hangover Youtube page as well right now. It's basically the wave form of the PODCAST. It's another way to listen to the podcast but GONNA be expanding into some historical documentary stuff with my partner. Alex so You WanNa get on the ground floor that so go over and subscribe to Literary Hangover Youtube Channel. Sweet see guys in the fun. Half Jamie and I may have a disagreement. Yeah you can't say whatever you want about people just because you're rich have an absolute right. Mark them on Youtube up there buggy wedding. I am not your employer negatively. I'm sorry I didn't mean to upset. you nervous. A little bit upset roundup. Yeah maybe you should rethink your defensive that you've walking idiots. We're just going to get rid of you. All right dude do do do. Do you want to smoke his joint. Yes do you feel like you are a dinosaur. The Shit exactly happy now to win Win Win Win Win. Hell Yeah now listen to me the two three four five times eight four seven six five. Oh one four five seven eight six twenty seven one five eight three point nine McLeod. Why don't you get a real job? Patrolling Dietrich A left-wing limbaugh everybody's taking their dumb juice dance dance dance Paul. I host quayle hoping that more moves to my repertoire. All I have a diplomat the swirl buy yes this is a perfect moment no wait. What do you make a million dollars? And you're not paying US me. Fuck you you fucking belong jail saying that south fickle quick break. Take the moment to talk to some Libertarians. Out there whatever vehicle you want to drive to the library what you're talking buddies Jabirjabir thick feeling more chill already. Donald Trump can kiss all of our asses. Hey Sam Hey Andy. Such an the death to America yes. Wow that's unbelievable guy's got a really good at what Ooh no worries. I wanted to flesh this out a little bit. I mean look. It's a free speech issue as you if you don't like me. Thank you for calling into the majority report damn will be with you shortly.