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Pump and Trump
(With Andrea Bernstein and Meg Cramer, WNYC, and Peter Elkind, ProPublica) Since Donald Trump’s fortunes came surging back with the success of “The Apprentice” 14 years ago, his deals have often been scrutinized for the large number of his partners who have ventured to the very edges of the law, and sometimes beyond. Those associates have included accused money launderers, alleged funders of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard and a felon who slashed someone in the face with a broken margarita glass. Trump and his company have typically countered by saying they were merely licensing his name on these real estate projects in exchange for a fee. They weren’t the developers or in any way responsible. But an eight-month investigation by ProPublica and WNYC reveals that the post-millennium Trump business model is different from what has been previously reported. The Trumps were typically way more than mere licensors or bystanders in their often-troubled deals. They were deeply involved in these projects. They helped mislead investors and buyers — and they profited handsomely from it. Patterns of deceptive practices occurred in a dozen deals across the globe, as the business expanded into international projects, and the Trumps often participated. One common pattern, visible in more than half of those transactions, was a tendency to misstate key sales numbers. In interviews and press conferences, Ivanka Trump gave false sales figures for projects in Mexico’s Baja California ; Panama City, Panama ; Toronto and New York’s SoHo neighborhood . These statements weren’t just the legendary Trump hype; they misled potential buyers about the viability of the developments. Another pattern: Donald Trump repeatedly misled buyers about the amount (or existence) of his ownership in projects in Tampa, Florida; Panama; Baja and elsewhere. For a tower planned in Tampa, for example, Trump told a local paper in 2005 that his ownership would be less than 50 percent: “But it’s a substantial stake. I recently said I’d like to increase my stake but when they’re selling that well they don’t let you do that.” In reality, Trump had no ownership stake in the project. The Trumps often made money even when projects failed. And when they tanked, the Trumps simply ignored their prior claims of close involvement, denied any responsibility and walked away. (Projects Where A Trump Family Member Overstated Numbers and Projects Where the Trumps Suggested They Were Developers, Partners or Equity Owners - They Weren't) The cycle is exemplified in Panama City, where the Trumps were involved in a project to build a massive tower and complex known as the Trump Ocean Club . The project’s unfortunate turns included bankruptcy, then, years later, the forcible ejection of the Trump Organization from managing the hotel. There, as elsewhere, the Trump Organization disclaimed responsibility. It emphasized that it had merely licensed the Trump name to developers who handled everything from construction to marketing. “The Trump Organization was not the owner, developer or seller of the Trump Ocean Club Panama project,” it said in a statement last year. “Because of its limited role, the company was not responsible for the financing of the project and had no involvement in the sale of units.” That was false. For starters, Trump arranged financing — his promised commission: $2.2 million or more — by bringing in investment bank Bear Stearns , which issued the bonds that paid for the Panama project’s construction. Trump touted himself as a “partner” of the developer. His daughter Ivanka briefly boasted that she had personally sold 40 units. (A broker on the project said he couldn’t remember her selling even one.) Meanwhile, Ivanka told a journalist at the time that “over 90 percent” of the Panama units had sold — and at prices five times as high as comparable buildings. Both statements were untrue. Not only were the Panama sales figures inflated, but many “purchases” turned out to be an illusion. That was no coincidence. The building’s financing depended on obtaining advance commitments from buyers, often before concrete had started pouring. But in between the sale of the bonds in 2007 and 2013, the year the building went bankrupt, buyers of 458 units in the 1,000-unit building abandoned their purchase contracts. Those buyers forfeited more than $50 million in deposits, and they never took possession of finished units. Given that the “buyers” were often shadowy shell companies or other paper entities, it was nearly impossible to discern who the actual purchasers were, let alone why they backed out. Trump licensed his name for an initial fee of $1 million. But that was just the beginning of the revenue streams, a lengthy and varied assortment that granted him a piece of everything from sales of apartment units to a cut of minibar sales, and was notable for the myriad ways in which both success and failure triggered payments to him. Consider the final accounting: In the wake of the project’s bankruptcy, a 50 percent default rate and his company’s expulsion from managing the hotel, Donald Trump walked away with between $30 million and $55 million. The Trump Organization did not respond to a long list of questions about its transactions. The White House didn’t have a comment. Trump’s licensing strategy originated with his early-2000s comeback, as “The Apprentice” propelled him to international TV stardom and restored luster to a reputation tarnished by multiple bankruptcies. As Trump put it in one promotional video during that period, “When the first season of ‘The Apprentice’ finally finished shooting, I was able to get back to my core business, real estate, and I’ve made some really incredible deals.” That strategy is still playing out today. The Trump Organization, which pledged not to launch new projects during the Trump presidency, is aggressively pursuing existing ones, including in the Dominican Republic, Indonesia and India. Some long-assumed beliefs about Trump are being re-investigated, with surprising results. This month, The New York Times published a 13,000-word examination of how Donald’s father, the late Fred Trump, and his estate, funneled millions of dollars to his children, in possible violation of tax rules and criminal laws. With copious documentation showing that Fred directed $413 million in today’s dollars to Donald — not the single loan for $1 million, with interest, that Donald has always claimed — it exploded Trump’s long-propagated claim that he is a self-made man. This article examines another Trump claim: that his post-millennium comeback and global expansion rested on the brilliant purity of a licensing strategy that paid him millions simply for the use of his name. That, it turns out, is no truer than the notion that Donald Trump is self-made. “Development Wasn’t Our Big Forte” A Lebanese importer-exporter with expertise in the apparel industry seemed an unlikely choice as a partner for one of Donald Trump’s first international forays. Yet that’s precisely who Trump would team with to embark on a wildly ambitious construction project in a distant Central American location. Roger Khafif divided his time between Panama, where he had become a citizen, and South Florida. He was a slick dresser who made big promises and exuded an intensity that could be viewed either as determination or stubbornness, according to people who did business with him. He had worked in the Panama Canal free-trade zone as an importer-exporter of clothing and had recently begun dabbling in real estate, documents show, via ownership interests in two Panamanian beach resorts. “Development wasn’t our big forte,” Khafif acknowledged in an interview with ProPublica. If Khafif seemed an implausible partner, Panama seemed an odd location for a project that would become a template of sorts for Trump’s international licensing deals. The country was better known as a cog in the Latin American drug trade than as a tourist destination. It was a place to turn illegal profits into useable cash. Money laundering helped fuel the proliferation of high-rises that gave Panama City its sleek, ultramodern skyline . The deal came together fast, according to Khafif. To get to Trump, he said, an associate put him in touch with a business partner of Marvin Traub, the Trump friend and former Bloomingdale’s CEO who had also brokered Trump Vodka. Traub’s consultancy got Khafif on Trump’s schedule. (Traub’s firm later sought almost $1.3 million for matchmaking, court documents show.) “We had a quick meeting,” Khafif recalled of his first encounter with Trump in New York in 2005. “Then I left. I went down to Miami, got a call the next day from Donald Trump saying they were interested in the project.” Khafif was so surprised he didn’t at first believe he was talking to Trump. Trump signed on to Khafif’s plan and decided to bestow the leading role in the project, at least as far as the Trump Organization went, on his daughter Ivanka, Khafif told Reuters. Just entering her mid-20s, she was leading a major deal for the first time. Ivanka traveled to Panama shortly after, and the agreement coalesced quickly. Khafif’s dream was audacious and grandiose. The planned complex, Ivanka claimed in a promotional video, would amass the largest square footage of any construction in all of the Americas. Fully Trumpian in its luxury and excess, the plan would call for a 69-story sail-shaped building with 1,000 condos and hotel-condo units, offices, a casino, spa, private beach, pool deck and yacht club. (When viewed from Panama Bay, the resulting edifice would look less like a sail and more like a giant lemon wedge perched on a square base.) One Monday in April 2006 in the marble atrium at Trump Tower in Manhattan, Khafif stood in a well-cut dark suit and pale pink tie beside Trump, Ivanka and Donald Jr. to announce plans for the Trump Ocean Club’s birth. “I really think the time for Panama has come,” Trump proclaimed. Trump left multiple observers with the impression that he had an equity stake in the deal. “He said the Trump does have a financial interest in the project but he would not disclose the amount,” reported a newsletter circulated to clients and associates, alerting them to news and investment opportunities, by the Panamanian law firm Mossack Fonseca, which would later become publicly known for sheltering wealth in offshore accounts. Marketing materials for the Panama project also implied that Trump was functioning as a developer. “I am honored to develop this extraordinary high rise with my partner Roger Khafif of the K Group,” Trump was quoted as saying in one promotional statement. Buyers believed the Trumps and their company were functioning as the project’s developers, in partnership with Khafif, according to a lawsuit later filed by dozens of buyers. But Trump did not have a penny of equity in the development, according to records of the bond sale and bankruptcy. Nor was he the actual developer, as the Trump Organization’s own statement confirmed. In Panama and elsewhere, Trump’s projects depended on outsiders’ willingness to invest. Trump claimed at the time that banks were “fighting to put up money” for the building. But there’s no evidence that was the case. His five casino and hotel bankruptcies meant financial institutions tended to shy away, and Khafif’s lack of building experience made him a risky financing prospect. (Khafif ultimately brought on the principals of a Colombian construction and design firm to deliver the necessary know-how.) Still, Trump had a card to play without which the tower would likely never have been built: his two-decade relationship with Bear Stearns. The investment bank agreed to underwrite a $220 million bond issue. Bear Stearns and Trump had worked together on a variety of endeavors. For example, two years earlier he and a Bear Stearns executive, Trump’s investment banking adviser, had launched Trump University , a non-accredited business education program that purported to teach his real estate strategies. (It later collapsed among accusations of fraud. Trump paid $25 million to settle a suit but denied wrongdoing.) And as far back as 1988, Trump paid a $750,000 civil judgment to the U.S. Department of Justice for having Bear Stearns make purchases of casino stocks in the bank’s name rather than in his. (Trump was looking to buy casinos at the time, and the Justice Department asserted that the concealed purchases violated antitrust laws.) As the bond underwriter in the Panama project, Bear Stearns played a dual role: It raised money for construction and also vouched for the soundness of the bonds it would sell. The bank was supposed to be checking that information disclosed to investors was accurate and provided a complete picture of the investment’s strengths and weaknesses. In reality, however, “the bank had significant lapses in exercising due diligence over their bond offerings” during that period, according to Gary Aguirre, an attorney and former SEC senior counsel who advocated for more accountability of Bear Stearns and other Wall Street banks involved in the financial crisis and said he researched Bear Stearns as part of that process. The bank, including a member of its Latin America group (which was involved in the Panama deal), faced multiple investigations by regulators into whether its employees in Miami and New York had improperly valued financial instruments, though they did not lead to charges, SEC records and media reports show. The bond sale barely squeaked through in November 2007. Tremors of what would become a global financial earthquake were already destabilizing markets. At the last minute, Bear Stearns postponed the offering only to reverse course a few days later. “I remember walking up Fifth Avenue and I put my arm around Roger [Khafif],” said Jack Studnicky, a lead real estate agent for the project, “and I said, ‘You are the luckiest SOB I ever met.’” This project, branded with the name of a longtime Bear Stearns client, was the only bond issue among eight at Bear Stearns at that moment that moved forward. Many investors turned up their noses at the bonds, even though Bear Stearns representatives had traveled to New York City, Miami and London to talk up the deal. Part of what drove some blue-chip corporate investors away was obvious: The bonds for the Panama project were rated “speculative” — “junk” in Wall Street parlance — reflecting what rating agencies viewed as an elevated chance of default. More risk-tolerant, and more anonymous, hedge funds and money managers proliferated among the bond buyers, making up 80 percent of initial investors. Within months of the offering, it became clear that the Trump Ocean Club would outlive its financial backer. Bear Stearns crumpled suddenly in March 2008 as creditors pounced on the heavily indebted institution. Less than six months after it delivered the money to construct the tower, Bear Stearns disappeared into the belly of J.P. Morgan. “We Needed Those Extra Sales” Trump’s connections landed financing for the Panama project, but they could take the deal only so far. The $220 million in bond proceeds wouldn’t have started flowing if Khafif’s team hadn’t satisfied a key prerequisite: Racking up “presales,” the term for purchase contracts signed while the building was under construction (and in many cases, before construction had even begun). Buyers promised to make a down payment of 30 percent, spread over four installments, and to eventually pay in full. These binding pledges served as collateral for the bond, a crucial source of value that bondholders could seize if the developers failed to pay back what they owed. Khafif and a cadre of brokers set out to move units, with what appeared to be dramatic success at first. The year Trump joined the project, 2006, the developers reported signing a whopping 585 presales contracts with prospective buyers (nearly 60 percent of the units in the building). The Moody’s credit-rating service cited the project’s rapid sales as a “positive credit characteristic.” But the project scrambled to nail enough contracts to fulfill the bank’s requirements, according to Studnicky, who worked for the project’s master brokers, International Sales Group (ISG). Over a meal in a Spanish restaurant in New York City, Khafif told Studnicky he needed “another 100 sales to make it valid” — scribbling numbers on the paper tablecloth, according to Studnicky. “It wasn’t fully collateralized, and we needed those extra sales,” he said. ISG leaned on its agents. “We knew there was a presale requirement in order to trigger the bond issue,” said Jeff Barton, another broker who worked at ISG at the time. “So there was definitely pressure.” In dealing with potential buyers, the ISG brokers communicated urgency of a much different sort: They acted as if the building were running out of units. The prices were in constant flux, keeping potential buyers off-balance. “You could never really get a straight answer in terms of what was actually available, what had actually sold and what the real price was,” said Kent Davis, who began looking to sell Ocean Club inventory soon after opening his own real estate company in Panama City in 2007. (One buyer echoed Davis’ comments. “When I invested it was ‘Oh wow, it’s almost sold out!’” said Al Monstavicius, a retired doctor who bought into the Panama tower. “I was told the units were selling real well. Well, they weren’t selling real well.”) ISG did not return messages seeking comment. Davis said he sold a few units, splitting the commission with ISG. “I think some of their projections were exaggerated. I think the way they described how the project would ultimately be built did not come to fruition,” he said. “I think they were overpromising and, to be honest, at times I was complacent.” Just as Trump took millions upfront, financial incentives in the project were stacked to reward brokers for quick presales — rather than slow and steady contracts perhaps more likely to close once construction finished. Commissions were front-loaded to an unusual degree, Davis said. Agents making the earliest sales would receive 90 percent of their expected commissions by the time construction started, according to Barton. Only the final 10 percent was held back until closing, when the buyer had paid in full and the unit was ready to be occupied. (Davis said that brokers typically get commissions in increments in line with the percentage their clients have put in.) Even as brokers were taking cash out quickly, buyers were given time to put their money in. They anted up just 10 percent upon signing a purchase contract, according to the bond prospectus. They paid the remaining 20 percent in increments over the year after that. Khafif complained of soaring construction costs and raised prices even as brokers hustled for contracts, Studnicky said. “I kept saying I understand the problem, but if you keep pushing the prices up, people are never going to be able to close on these things,” he said. The higher prices climbed, the more the Trumps stood to pocket. Their licensing agreement gave them a base fee of 4 percent of gross sales when units closed. (This was on top of the $1 million Trump was given in advance for the use of his name.) They also received an “incentive fee”: the higher the price rose above benchmarks, the greater a proportion the Trumps earned, records show. A hotel-condominium unit that sold for $385,000, for example, would produce a payment of $20,650 — just over 5 percent — to Trump’s company. That was just the beginning. Along with the cut of sales, Trump’s 2006 licensing agreement provided the family other cash streams from the Panama project. The Trumps could take a 20 percent commission on construction costs if money was saved through Trump dealmaking, for instance. Once the hotel opened , they would pocket 17.5 percent of what hotel guests paid for their rooms, including what they spent on minibar items, internet service and even bathrobes; 4 percent for parking unit sales; and 12 percent of commercial space rentals. The Trump Organization would also receive 4 percent of the hotel’s gross revenue for managing it, plus an incentive fee equal to a fifth of the hotel’s net operating income. If everything went smoothly, according to the bond prospectus, Trump’s take would be $74 million by 2010. That sum was equivalent to about a third of the entire financing for the project. Of course, things would go less than perfectly. But Trump was protected if that happened, too. His contract created a safety net for him if prices rose so high that buyers failed to close. One provision required that two years after the first closing, developers would pay the Trumps fees for unsold units — basing the amount on the average sales prices of the units that had closed. In theory, avoiding such payments provided an incentive to sell more units; in reality, it meant that Trump would get paid whether or not units actually sold. The contract required that monthly sales and marketing reports be provided to the Trumps. It was a stipulation the Trump Organization appeared to value: In an email related to another project, Trump’s son Eric chastised business partners in the Dominican Republic for delays in making such reports. “I am getting weekly emails from my team who requests this info on all projects for basic monitoring purposes,” Eric wrote. His sister, meanwhile, asserted her engagement with the company’s endeavors. “I’m involved in every aspect of our new construction projects,” Ivanka said in a 2008 interview. “[A] lot of what I do is get involved in the acquisition process, from sourcing the potential opportunities and then the initial due-diligence process, but then, of course, I follow the deals through to predevelopment planning, design, interior design, architectural design, sales and marketing, and, ultimately, through operations.” “Our biggest problem is not having enough inventory” Construction on the Trump Ocean Club had begun in May 2007, with customer deposits, investor money and a bridge loan tiding the developers over until the sale of bonds in November 2007. To hear the Trumps tell it, the project was a raging and immediate success, even in the face of a historic global financial and real estate crisis that erupted in 2008 and continued into 2009 and beyond. At times, the hyperbole crossed over into misrepresentation. In a November 2008 interview, Ivanka Trump bragged that she had “sold 40 units in Panama last month.” She added that “it’s a 1,000-unit building, we’ve sold over 90 percent of it.” The units, she said, had been going at a “500 percent premium to anything the luxury market has ever experienced prior to our entry.” All of that was exaggerated or outright false. When pressed by her interviewer about what she meant by “I sold 40 units,” Ivanka backed off, saying, “We did, our project,” a transcript of the interview shows. Studnicky, who was deeply involved with Ocean Club sales at the time and generally praised the Trumps, said Ivanka didn’t sell any units that he knew of. Three months after Ivanka’s comments were published, Moody’s reported that 79 percent of the building’s units were under purchase contracts. The Trump name did carry a premium, according to data filed with Panamanian securities officials. But even at its high point, it amounted to about 130 percent of what similar luxury properties fetched, not the 500 percent Ivanka claimed. Meanwhile, the Trumps used some of their glamour to encourage sales. Donald Trump himself hosted a gala for the Panama project at Mar-a-Lago where celebrity Regis Philbin dropped in. But difficulties were mounting and cash was tight. By 2009, some buyers were offered hefty discounts if they agreed to pay the full purchase price up front. (Monstavicius says he accepted such an offer, shaving $100,000 off his nearly half-million-dollar penthouse suite.) Ratings for the Ocean Club’s bonds were lowered in February 2009, but you wouldn’t have known that by listening to the Trumps. A few weeks after the downgrade, Ivanka gushed about Panama in an interview with a publication called the Latin Business Chronicle. “Given the global downturn, the fact that sales remain so robust is a testament to the product, the brand and Panama,” she said. “Our biggest problem is not having enough inventory. We only have a small percent of the building left.” The following year brought more trouble. There was another bond downgrade. One of the services that reduced its rating, Fitch, expressed concerns about the market and buyers’ “willingness and ability to close on units upon delivery.” The developers faced a $27 million construction shortfall and delays by subcontractors performing services such as millwork. Khafif and his team trimmed back some of their plans, which only irked buyers who had already committed their money. For example, buyers said square footage for some units was reduced. The location for a planned beach club was moved to a more distant spot with less cachet. And plans to have Trump manage the casino were abandoned. The issuing of the bonds hadn’t relieved pressure on the Ocean Club to move units. The developers needed to keep sales commitments and cash high or they risked defaulting on the bonds. By 2010, 25 contracts appeared in jeopardy as buyers missed payments toward their deposits. Facing pressure from multiple sides, the developers sought bondholders’ permission to make key changes to their agreement. They proposed relaxing the requirements for collateral and reducing the amount of cash they had to keep in a deposit account. In a company statement quoted in the press at the time, Newland International Properties (the entity formed by Khafif and the outside developers he partnered with) was blunt about its need: “The company believes that the proposed amendments are necessary to allow the company to continue construction.” “Nobody Ever Asked Where These Sales Were Coming From” From the beginning, the plan at the Trump Ocean Club was to draw a luxury-seeking international clientele with disposable income. With some 1,000 units to sell, brokers tapped networks of upper-crust buyers across the globe. In doing so, they netted purchasers with problematic pasts, including some with ties to organized crime and money laundering operations. ISG representatives and independent brokers fanned out to Russia, Spain, Switzerland, Dubai, China and South Africa, as well as other Latin American countries. As of mid-2007, roughly 60 percent of buyers came from outside the United States, bond documents show. (Much has been made of Trump’s buyers of Russian nationality or extraction, but the Panama sales were not tracked by nationality. Still, some were found in Moscow and, Khafif said, in Trump developments in ) Several aspects of the Panama sales raised red flags, according to experts. For example, some buyers bought blocks of units. Purchases were typically made anonymously through shell corporations registered in Panama. That allowed some buyers to change the ownership of the unit in secret, simply by changing the ownership of the company. They often used so-called bearer shares, allowing a stake in a company to be transferred simply by passing a piece of paper. “Nobody ever asked where these sales were coming from, where the money was coming from,” said Studnicky, adding that this wasn’t unusual for such a building at the time. The purchase of multiple units and the use of bearer shares or shell companies are not illegal in themselves. But they can be hallmarks of money laundering, according to experts. “We have no idea of the people behind those companies,” said Eryn Schornick, a policy adviser for Global Witness, an international anti-corruption organization. The Panama deal, she said, bore signs of “classic money laundering.” Meanwhile, multiple buyers claimed they were promised quick profits through flips arranged by the developers, promises they say were not fulfilled. Some of those allegations began emerging in litigation even before the Trump Ocean Club opened. In late 2010, a group of buyers accused Trump, the Trump Organization, Khafif and Newland, Khafif’s development operation, of misleading them, according to a previously unreported lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Florida. There were 37 plaintiffs, led by an independent broker, Greg Landau. The group — including South Florida residents, a family in Brooklyn, a Massachusetts psychiatrist, a New York fashion mogul and several Russians — had bought 42 Ocean Club condominiums between 2006 and 2009. The group alleged that Khafif had offered them a sweet enticement: If they put 30 percent down, either the developer or the Trump Organization would finance the rest. Khafif, plaintiffs claimed, said Newland or the Trump Organization would manage the investment — finding new buyers so they could flip it for a big profit before construction was finished and they had to close on the property. The deal soured after some of the Ocean Club plans were trimmed (including, as noted, reducing the size of units). Buyers discovered there was no developer financing, and no buyers lined up to flip to. They went to court. Trump had “stood by silently as Khafif made the misrepresentations” in a meeting at Mar-a-Lago in 2007 aimed at attracting investors and encouraging current investors to increase their deposits, the lawsuit claimed. It also cited the marketing materials in which Trump called Khafif his “partner.” “The Trump Organization knew these representations were being made by Khafif to Landau and of the fact that Landau was expected to repeat them to other potential investors,” it alleged. “Defendants Khafif, Donald Trump, and the Trump Organization were culpable participants in the fraudulent scheme.” In an interview with ProPublica, one of those buyers described what he had expected to happen. “There was an agreement that when the hotel is built, when the building is ready, we’ll sell our apartments, our shares, and quit the project,” said Victor Masaltsev, an internet entrepreneur who lives in Moscow and invested in the Ocean Club through a Panamanian shell company that became a plaintiff in the Landau suit against Trump. Masaltsev said he was invited to visit Mar-a-Lago for an event with Trump celebrating the project, but he couldn’t make the trip. “I’ve been doing business for a long time and, you know, there’s never a 100 percent guarantee,” he said through a translator. “But I was expecting to make no less than 50 percent profit on my money.” Instead, he said, he lost his deposit. In their legal papers, the Trump Organization and Newland asserted that the complaint was “completely devoid of facts sufficient to show that Donald Trump and The Trump Organization were conducting the affairs of a ‘fraudulent scheme.’” Khafif called the lawsuit a case of “buyers’ remorse, of course.” There were “a million” such lawsuits when the financial crisis came, he added. “They tried to invent anything in order to get their money back. It wasn’t our fault.” A U.S. judge ordered the case be moved to Panamanian courts, but the parties reached a confidential settlement before that happened. Other plaintiffs, reached by ProPublica, have a surprising take on the dispute today. Three of them echoed Khafif and said the project was simply a bad investment. “It’s nothing to do with Trump,” said David Feldman, speaking outside his Brooklyn duplex. He said he did not receive any money in the settlement and added that he thought Trump was hurt by the deal, too, before declining to talk further. Landau did not respond to requests for comment, nor did Roderick Coleman, the attorney named on the lawsuit pleadings. Landau’s group wasn’t the only one to claim it was sold on an unfulfilled promise of easy flipping. One buyer from Dubai made similar claims, according to emails in the Panama Papers, a collection of documents leaked from Mossack Fonseca and shared by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists. “The concept was pay the deposit and they would get it resold before completion,” a representative for the buyer wrote to a lawyer in Panama. “[T]he apartment was going to be resold for them by the agents that came from Panama to Dubai for Marketing the project.” Khafif called it another case of buyer’s remorse. “Our project was the cleanest one of them all” Unfulfilled promises weren’t the only questionable behavior alleged at the Trump Ocean Club. For example, one high-selling broker, Alexandre Ventura Nogueira , was linked to money laundering by Global Witness and a joint Reuters-NBC investigation. Nogueira confirmed in that article that some of his partners and investors on the Trump Panama project had connections to the Russian mafia. (He asserted that he had discovered those connections only after the fact.) Among the buyers Nogueira landed was a Colombian businessman who was subsequently convicted in the United States of conspiring to launder drug money. Khafif told ProPublica that he hired Nogueira because he was one of the highest-profile brokers in Panama City at the time. “That guy was very famous,” Khafif said. “We ended up suing him because he swindled the clients.” Nogueira, who was also accused of selling the same units to more than one buyer at the same time, fled Panama and described himself in the Reuters article as a “fugitive.” (He denied in that story, but could not be reached for comment for this article.) The Trump Organization denied the family knew Nogueira. But photos were published of Ivanka and her father smiling with an arm around Nogueira at events at Trump Tower and Mar-a-Lago. Project developers also seem to have made dubious presales themselves — and profitable ones at that — according to emails between bondholders and Newland obtained by ProPublica. Newland shareholders purchased some of the building’s units at below-market prices with down payments of just 5 percent. “I have never seen 8-10 percent of a 996 unit project reserved by the developers at prices as much as 70 percent less than list price (with just a 5% deposit),” asserted one email from Gary Lundgren, who now owns a sizable part of the building, to others in the project. The purchases were “not disclosed in the Bear Stearns’s bond offering circular, not disclosed in the quarterly financial disclosure, not disclosed in the annual audited financial statements,” he complained. Newland acquired some of the units by taking over ones that were in danger of default, Lundgren stated in the email, with the developers kicking in the 5 percent needed for the units to continue being counted as collateral under the bond terms. The developers resold some of the properties at higher prices, Lundgren’s email asserted, and they pocketed the difference. These resales effectively cut out bondholders from their share of the proceeds. His emails to Newland did not mention the Trumps. (In 2016, Lundgren was barred by the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority from acting as a broker after he failed to respond to an information request. His filings asserted that the complaint against him, filed by someone who was not his customer, was without merit, and that Panamanian law prevented him from disclosing the records.) The insider purchases potentially violated the terms of the project’s financing. The bond prospectus required down payments of at least 30 percent, which would “protect the economics of our project.” Since sweetheart deals generated less cash — which meant less collateral for the bonds — a provision of the bond agreement restricted sales made to affiliates of the developers. And if buyers stopped making payments, they were supposed to go through a default process rather than have Newland take over their purchase. “The developers made bad judgment calls, and they justified it by their support for the project,” said Alfredo “Dino” de Angelis, of Gapstone, which advised Newland in the bankruptcy. Ultimately, he said, the developers added money to stabilize the project, enough to equal or exceed what they appear to have made by re-selling units. Khafif said that bondholders looked into the questions and “found everything was 100 percent by the book.” He said developers didn’t need to buy units and followed the rules in the bond indenture. Khafif insisted that he conducted business the right way. “Our project was the cleanest one of them all,” he said. “We had to watch out for Trump, we had to watch out for bondholders. We had to work within the indenture, or else we’d be screwed.” “Replete with misrepresentations” Ivanka Trump ’s exaggerations about the Ocean Club reflected a tactic she and her father employed repeatedly in other cases, ProPublica and WNYC found. Their statements, typically made in the midst of sales drives, tended to overstate the number of units under contract or the Trump Organization’s equity stake in projects scattered around the globe. The Trumps’ propensity to overstate sales led them, as ProPublica, WNYC and the New Yorker reported last year, to be investigated on potential felony fraud charges in one case. Ivanka had announced in June 2008 that 60 percent of the units at the SoHo tower had been bought when in fact 15 percent had, according to an affidavit filed by a Trump partner. The Manhattan district attorney’s office considered charging the Trumps but backed off after a visit from a donor — Trump’s attorney Marc Kasowitz . (The DA, Cyrus Vance , denied he was influenced by the donation but later changed his policy and now refuses donations from lawyers with cases before him.) Similar deceptions occurred elsewhere. In a marketing video for a project in Baja, Mexico, Ivanka referred to Trump International Hotel in Toronto as one of several “sold out” properties. The Toronto tower never did sell out. It was still three-quarters empty late last year, a few months after Trump’s name was removed from the building. Trump himself also made misrepresentations. In 2006, he said the Trump Organization would be a significant equity investor in the $200 million Baja project and repeatedly portrayed himself as the project’s developer. Yet in 2008, the company admitted it was neither a developer nor an investor. In Tampa, as noted, Trump told the press he had a significant ownership stake when he had none. Moreover, his licensing agreement contained a confidentiality provision barring “under any circumstances” that anyone reveal the agreement existed, and hence that Trump was only licensing his name. The deal never got financing and ultimately fell apart. Panama also wasn’t the only project where questions emerged about insider deals. In Tampa, Donald Trump Jr. and three executives associated with the Trump Organization arranged to buy a unit under unusually attractive terms, according to emails between the executives and the developer. As early sales on the project surged, the Trump group — which formed a company called Busy Boys Investments to handle the purchase — bargained both for a discount price and a smaller deposit than other buyers paid. “Can you confirm the deal?” asked Russell Flicker, a former Trump Organization executive vice president, in a late-2004 email to one of the Tampa developers. “(We had discussed 5% down payment, discounted price and flip rights prior to closing — are all of these on the table?) You’re the man.” The developer replied, “The deal is as you state!” The Trump group also discussed backdating documents to reduce their tax liability, according to the emails. They excitedly anticipated a quick flip that would yield a $200,000 profit — $50,000 apiece, a handsome return on the $8,604 deposit each paid. (The emails were revealed in a court case filed by unhappy buyers; their suit ultimately settled, with the buyers receiving limited refunds of their deposits.) In January 2005, Flicker forwarded an email conveying the prospect of such a windfall to his partners in the side deal: Donald Jr. and Trump Organization executive vice presidents Bernie Diamond and Jason Greenblatt, with the message: “!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” In a July 2005 email, Diamond, an attorney, explained to the others that the developer told him he would prepare a unit purchase contract “for Busy Boys to sign dated in 2004,” as well as an assignment of their contract to the proposed buyer, also “dated one year earlier.” Diamond noted, “This is good, as it will give us the best shot at capital gains treatment.” (The Tampa tower was never constructed, so the Busy Boys entity did not ultimately cash in. On behalf of Greenblatt, who is now a special representative for international negotiations in the Trump administration, a White House official said “Mr. Greenblatt complied with all applicable laws in connection with condominium purchase agreements.”) In Baja, Ivanka tried to leverage her own unit purchase to pull in other buyers. “I personally am very excited about it, I actually chose to purchase a unit in the first tower,” she said in a promotional video as she flashed a smile. She did not mention that the deposit she paid was less than half of the 30 percent other investors put in for their units, according to Univision. Univision also reported that the developers overstated the percentage of units sold and had assigned 34 units to their own executives and other related parties. Written materials became a matter of contention, as well; multiple buyers contended they were misleading. Trump had some say over such materials: Projects including Baja, Tampa, the Dominican Republic, Israel and Panama all required developers and other partners to obtain prior approval from Trump’s company before posting press releases. In some cases, the company had veto power over promotional materials in general, as well. There were other deceptions. In marketing materials featuring a grinning image of the New York developer, potential buyers in a Trump-branded project in Toronto were shown investment projections that proved wildly optimistic, according to interviews and records from the extensive litigation that ensued. A Canadian appeals court, ruling after the Toronto deal went sour, unanimously found that estimates of profitability provided to purchasers “bore no relation to financial reality.” The panel quoted a trial judge’s findings that the projections were “deceptive” and “replete with misrepresentations of commission, of omission, and of half-truth.” (The case is still pending.) In Chicago , Trump promised discounts — some with down payments of as little as 5 percent — to friends and colleagues, only to rescind those arrangements when sales in the building picked up. Trump justified the broken promises, saying “we’re entitled” to the higher prices. Buyers who sued Trump have had mixed success. Most suits settled before trial, but Trump prevailed in cases in Las Vegas and Florida in which buyers accused his company of deception. The “Stormy Jack Daniels” The Trump Ocean Club in Panama was officially inaugurated on July 6, 2011. It was nearly a year behind schedule after cost overruns and construction delays. The Trumps had been more visible again during the final stages. Ivanka picked out design finishes, including helping deck out the “sky lobby” on the 15th floor with wood paneling, pillars and marble that echoed the ground floor entrance hall. The lobby’s “tropical color palette” was “reminiscent of indigenous flowers,” Ivanka said in one promotional video. July falls during Panama’s rainy season and a downpour swamped the city’s already-overwhelmed infrastructure on the day of the opening, turning the cramped roads near the tower into waterways. Trump had angered many Panamanians by declaring that the U.S. had “stupidly” turned over the Panama Canal “in exchange for nothing.” But the country’s then-president, Ricardo Martinelli , turned up for the ceremony nonetheless. He joined Trump, his two adult sons, Khafif, and other dignitaries to cut a ribbon to mark the opening. Ivanka, days away from giving birth to her first child, did not attend. (In June 2018, Martinelli was extradited on corruption charges, unrelated to the Trump project, from the U.S., where he had fled in search of sanctuary. He has denied wrongdoing.) Trump was upbeat. “I think this hotel is truly magnificent,” he said, according to press reports. “You look at Panama’s skyline and you see how this one truly stands out.” The time had come for the hundreds of sales contracts that brokers had amassed over the previous five years — eventually covering about 85 percent of the building — to convert to actual sales. In the months that followed, however, it became increasingly clear that buyers were walking away in droves. Ultimately, only about half the sales contracts closed, leaving the building largely empty and developers struggling to make bond-related payments. One-bedroom units that once sold for $350,000 could be scooped up for $180,000. In November 2011, developers defaulted on a critical bond payment. The volume of people who abandoned their deposits far exceeded the ratings agencies’ worst-case predictions. Those predictions rested on the forbidding combination of tight post-crisis financing standards and the high prices that many buyers had agreed to pay. That strongly suggests that many of the remaining people who paid deposits and then vanished may not have intended to do anything more than put down enough cash to trigger the $220 million bond issuance. Newland declared bankruptcy in April 2013 in federal court in New York City, where it kept much of its cash. The Trumps agreed to reduce their fees, making concessions that bankruptcy records said would amount to $20 million over a period of years. Even after those concessions, Khafif’s company continued to run in the red in 2014 and 2015, with net losses nearing $28 million in 2014 alone, financial reports show. It missed another payment in 2015.So Trump didn’t make the $74 million he had hoped for. He appears to have walked away with between $30 million and $55 million, based on fragmentary information in his government disclosure forms, financial statements filed in Panama and estimates by observers. Khafif seems philosophical about it. At 63, he’s semiretired and travels to the U.S. and Europe often. These days, he said, his main business is laundering linens. The company, Perfect Cleaners, which Khafif called the largest industrial laundry plant in Central America, has served the Trump Ocean Club. (He did not respond to a question about his own financial outcome on the Trump project.) Khafif said his relationship with the family remains good. “I was in New York a couple months ago. I went to visit Eric Trump,” he said. “We’re fine.” The Ocean Club proved a disappointment in many respects, he said, “but life goes on. … It’s the best building in town.” As much as $120 million of the original bond was never paid back, according to one investor. Asked about that, Khafif pointed out that many investors sold their bonds — albeit at a discount — after receiving interest payments for years, allowing some to recoup much of their investment at a time when lots of people were hemorrhaging money. “It depends on how you look at it,” Khafif said. “You’re grateful at getting your money back, or you’re greedy and you want to make money when everybody lost their shirt.” Ocean Club buyers filed a host of lawsuits in Panama, complaining of the delays and changes in the building plans. The beach club was never built. A non-Trump company took over the casino. Some rooms were smaller than planned. By 2015, a new revolt was brewing, this time by Ocean Club unit owners fed up with the way the Trumps were managing the property — or more particularly, with how they were spending the building association’s money. Led by Lundgren, the owners alleged that Trump employees overspent budgets, taking excessive bonuses for themselves, and mishandled building finances, leading them to propose a steep increase in fees to owners. Trump responded by suing the condo owners, demanding up to $75 million for wrongful termination. (The litigation was settled confidentially in 2016.) In 2017, Ithaca Capital Partners, led by Orestes Fintiklis, bought 202 of the hotel’s 369 hotel-condo units. In October of last year, his group sought to remove the Trump Organization as hotel managers — alleging in a legal action that it had mismanaged the hotel, leading to drastic drop-offs in occupancy and profits. The Trump Organization countersued, accusing Fintiklis of a “fraudulent scheme” that breached its 20-year management contract. The dispute reached a head early this year, when Fintiklis’ representatives, with a court order behind them, sought to take physical control of the building. Trump Organization employees and a group of security personnel tried to block the effort, leading to confrontations and shoving matches. Fintiklis’ group ultimately gained entry but discovered walls had been hastily erected in inconvenient places — in the middle of a hallway, in front of an elevator bank — to impede access to the building’s inner offices. Reports circulated of Trump employees shredding documents. In March of this year, the Trumps suffered the ignominy of seeing their name crowbarred off the stone wall in front of the tower . It was rebranded the Bahia Grand Panama. In late spring, the hotel, once touted as boasting stratospheric levels of luxury, was quiet, with rooms renting for the decidedly terrestrial rate of $169 a night. At the hotel bar, you could order drinks with a sardonic twist that reflected Fintiklis’ sense of humor, including the “Fire and Fury” and the “Stormy Jack Daniels.” In June, Fintiklis announced the hotel would have a new manager. “We are thrilled that our hotel will operate as a JW Marriott ,” he said in a statement, “and we believe this partnership, together with a talented team and spectacular hotel amenities, will be a success.” ### Additional reporting by Micah Hauser, Ian MacDougall, Gabriel Sandoval, Katherine Sullivan and Madeleine Varner.
Aired 3 d ago 131:38
131 - Disappearances, Hidden Cities, Murders and More: National Park Mysteries
The origin of the tuba Cobb related you Afo sidings and you'll seventy a giant lost Egyptian city in the Grand Canyon. Another underground city supposedly inhabited by mystical the marines and mount Shasta mysterious murders unexplained disappearances haunted camp, lodges curse land, the birth of a cult that exists and to this day, miss monsters aliens ghosts and more in today's cornucopia of strange national park mysteries edition of time. Suck. Having Monday meet sacks. Welcome to the cult of the curious. It's time so time, I'm Dan. Komen heave so many nicknames. And you're listening to time suck he'll Nimrod begun slash halo Safina praise. Triple m Ambuhl jingles long suck big thanks to our space lizards for supporting the show via patriot. And for leading this Donut. Eighteen hundred dollars this month to Baca bikers against child abuse. Keep hearing more and more good stories about that organization. Lincoln the episode description. If you want to donate more or just learn about this fantastic people and how much they do for the victims of child, physical and sexual abuse. Thank you again for the recent ratings and reviews another spreads the suck more than word of mouth. And the suck is spreading ratings reviews telling people it's spreads it so much the cold curious now, roughly one hundred fifty thousand strong, according to a recent analytics, and we do use the strictest measuring system of any podcast analytic platform out there. So I hope I can trust those numbers. Met some great time suckers on the mediocre time with Tom and Dan podcast cruise. I was blast. I didn't even get sick. I did sleep so much like probably ten hours or more today. And then still felt sick when I got home. Remember, my crazy voice last week finally went to the doctor pesky sinus infection, I used to get those so often thought it was good last few years. I mean, those things can linger. I think the warm Bahamian weather of the crews and some new powerful antibiotics. I'm on have me on the men's now, I'm not I'm not currently sounding like Christian bills. Batman, I have blow my nose about seventy five hundred times today, but hopefully not gonna have to stop recording twenty times during this podcast to to keep going ahead and Florida again soon for some more tour dates going to beat the off the hook comedy club in Naples on Thursday night, March twenty eight first time in Naples, let's make a fun. And then the Miami improv Saturday March thirtieth then I'll be at the Queen to suck Lindy's hometown. Cleveland, Ohio, April four through six another live heal kid suck in Cleveland, April six, Linda. Is going to be there and access apparel. I forgot to mention is going to be in Cleveland for the live suck only. They're going to be printing. In exclusive shirt, you can only get at that particular recording of the of the live time stuff, and he'll kids or the or the live performance gives me they had the brain summer. More remote printing. Apparatus trying it out just for fun. Little bit of experiments sesame pretty cool, Des Moines. Iowa one night only on April eleventh, Kansas City, Missouri Homa Johnny dare two nights April twelfth and thirteenth back to Nashville going to be part of the Nashville comedy festival on the fourteenth doing a live and he'll kids time. So could zanies I think right before small town murder. Do this one show only can't wait. Then onto the Texas theater in Dallas, April twenty six the place they John Wilkes booth hit out right after she supposedly shooting. JFK the secret group in Houston on the twenty seventh. San Francisco Boston Spokane Jacksonville and so much more coming up right around the corner. Ticket info for the entire. Two thousand nineteen happy murder. Stand up tour at Dan. Komen dot TV new danger brain black white classic hoodie at the time. So store been awhile since we had a new hoodie. I know we sold out of most of the sizes of the blue zip up hoodie and some of the sizes of the previous black zip up now. Now, we got we got a non zipper knows zipper crew neck pullover hoodie and in the ever evolving. Access apparel. Run time suck store the new dodge are made from the same next level. Fifty fifty cotton poly, fabric planned as the last zip up. Black Cody will fit the same. However, th- this hoodie is made up of ground up elderly, golden, retriever penis, meet you heard right. It's made up ground up. Retriever Weiner, mate. Why? Because we got a good deal on it so cheap. They were practically given that stuff way capitalism. Baby capitalism. Held him. Now, let's have some fun. Let's have a lot of fun. Let's get weird a little bit of murder in today's tale. But not but not too much. No, we've had a lot recently. This is a very different suck than the recent sucks. And. I love it. A lot of different stories little vignettes wandering around to the world of true crime the paranormal crypto zoology folklore and some good old fashioned wackadoo. Let's get silly. With today's national park mysteries. Okay. Time for a little bit of trivia before I focused on mysteries in four different sites within our national park system. We're going to dive deep into mysteries from the Grand Canyon Yosemite. Mount Shasta, which is a national natural landmark and will you gain national park in Puerto Rico, the only tropical rainforest protected by the US department of interior. So how about you know, about the US national parks in general, do you know, how many there are? I didn't before I looked up that info for this week's research, according to Wikipedia there are sixty one according to a variety of travel websites. There are anywhere from fifty eight to sixty according to our furry one eyed three legged pit bull and time suck mascot bojangles. The whole nation is one big national park for him to piss and shit on as he sees fit for him fences. And no trespassing signs are barriers. They are invitations their challenges, according to national parks dot org. The website for the national park found. Dacian? There are currently sixty national parks. But even that number is misleading. The United States national park system encompasses a total of four hundred and eighteen different sites. That span across eighty four million acres, which is more land than than a lot of entire nations possess. The system includes parks and territories such as Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands American Samoa Guam, just one of America's parks. Alaska's Rangel, Saint Elliot's national park and preserve encompasses thirteen point two million acres bigger than Yellowstone Yosemite and the entire country of Switzerland combined. The US national park system is is in total over ten million acres bigger than the entire nation of Italy within the number of four hundred eighteen sites. Only sixty actually include national park is part of their proper name like Acadia national park on Maine's Atlantic coast Everglades national park on the southern tip of Florida Grand Canyon National park in Arizona Yellowstone National. Oh park primarily located in north west Wyoming but bleed into parts of Montana, and I'd Aho in addition to these national parks there are eleven different national battlefields. Four national battlefield parks. Won national battlefield site, nine national, military parks. Fifty one national historic parks, seventy eight national historic sites. And then there are national memorials national monuments national reserves, preserves recreation areas fee, shores, lake shores and more. So how did all these parks get here? Well, some people don't think they are here. Some people think they're just lies pushed on us via the moon matrix manipulated reality being projected down onto earth facilitated by courts deposits and alien technology taking the positive reality programming coming from the sun's photons twisting them into negative reality. Projectors pushing us towards war and famine and discord whatever turmoil faves the nudity those damn ancient Babylonian brotherhood, reptilian motherfucker. Cres that have been slaved humanity from Linnea, but those people are considered by most academics. And scientists to be utter maniacs. So let's nor that perspective. We're gonna have some fun with wacky doodles who do believe in shit equally crazy to what I just said here and there throughout today suck. And if that gibberish did make a little bit of sense to you, thanks for paying attention to the David stuff. I've been talking about from time to time people who live in the real world where history has not been grossly rewritten where we're not be manipulated by aliens understand that the origin of our national parks can be traced back to eighteen seventy two on March. I eighteen seventy two then president Ulysses s grant signed the Yellowstone National Park Protection Act. The congress had just passed establishing Yellowstone National Park in the territories of Montana in Wyoming as a quote, public park or pleasure. Ground for the benefit and enjoyment of the people and placed it under exclusive control of the secretary of the interior the founding of Yellowstone National Park introduced a whole new concept and not just the people United States. But to the world at large, and that's the concept of preserving land for future generations to enjoy ensuring that no one will build on it outside the occasional guest lodge and gift shop, of course, the act began a worldwide national park movement today more than one hundred nations contain some twelve hundred national parks or Quillet preserves or as the access pleasure grounds. Which sounds a little perverse today? I picture people flocking Yellowstone do pleasure themselves around the geysers and hot springs. How was your trip? Yellowstone? Ulysses most excellent I was able to timeout Jackie Latian into the delightful, spray, hold faithful exquisitely magical moment, I was also able to toss my seed into a few hot springs and majestic groves of massive pines as well. And Julia was able to barely digital herself. I'll gaze into the grand prize medic spring few buffalo stopped in admired who beauty. It was quite an experience highly recommend three out of five stars in the years following the establishment of Yellowstone United States began to authorize additional national parks and monuments many of them carved from federal lands in the west. These sites were also ministered by the department of interior while other monuments and national historic areas would ministered by the war department and the forest service of the department of agriculture. No single agency provided unified management of the varied federal park lands. Quite yet. On August, twenty fifth nineteen sixteen president Woodrow Wilson signed the act in the National Park Service. A new Federal Bureau in the department of the interior responsible for protecting the thirty five national parks and monuments then managed by the department and knows yet to be established the act says that these services thus establish shell promote and regulate the use of the federal areas known as national parks, monuments and reservations by such means and measures as conform to the fundamental purpose of the said parks, monuments and reservations, which purpose is to conserve the scenery and the national historic objects and the wildlife therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner. And by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations to pleasure themselves with and that is exactly what it says minus the to pledge themselves with at the end. There was no more pleasure talk. Unfortunately, unfortunately, president Wilson wasn't Saint stuff. Like this this stomping of the herds of buffaloes. The the many beautiful songs of the foul of a new. Variety. The roar of the mighty grizzly the howled of the majestic wolf all make for such a sweet soundtrack for the stroking and did lean of American genitalia. Do Jackie late in front of a rare protected fern or upon the face of an endangered in beloved tree. Frog are seldom seen crane that will be the God given inalienable right of every American citizen from this day forward have him have him hooray. Was that moment had happened? Maybe maybe didn't some other parallel universes. Hey almost two decades later on July tenth nineteen thirty three. New president Franklin D Roosevelt D is in dick Franken dick Roseville now still on signed executive order six one six six into law allowing the president to reorganize departments that fall under the executive branch of government using his act. He transferred fifty-six, national monuments and military sites from the forest service from the war department to the National Park Service an action it was. A major step in the development of today's truly national system of parks. Assistant includes areas of historical as well as scenic and scientific importance all the sides now managed by the same agency. Then in nineteen seventy congress reaffirmed the legality of the national park system in the general authorities act of nineteen seventy saying that the national park system was began with the establishment of Yellowstone National Park in eighteen seventy two has since grown to include superlative natural historic recreation areas and every region, and that it is the purpose of this act to include in such areas in the system now additions to the national park system are generally made through acts of congress and national parks can be created only through such acts, but the president does have the authority under the entities act of nineteen o six to proclaim national monuments on lands that are already under federal jurisdiction. So the president can't add to the national park system in that way. The secretary of the interior is is usually asked by congress for recommendations on proposed dishes at the system. The secretary is council by the national park system. Advisory board composed of private citizens which advises on possible additions to the system and policies for its management camp. Nelson national monument in Nicholasville Kentucky Dogville. Yeah. Yeah. Became the newest addition to the national park system on October twenty seventh two thousand eighteen it's twenty miles south of Lexington. And it tells a story of the African American military service in the union army during the civil war over ten thousand African American troops mustered at camp Nelson, which also offered refuge for their enslaved wives and children camp Nelson was the first national monument designated by President Trump little bit positive local news who knew that was possible political news has become so pervasively negative. You would think that no politician ever did anything worthwhile ever at all anymore today? More than twenty thousand National Park Service employees care for America's four hundred plus national parks and work with communities across the nation to help preserve local history and create close to home recreational opportunities. Now, it's a random trivia about a few specific parks before Wade out into the strange sometimes scary waters of today's national park mysteries. I swear we're gonna get into the greatest shit here soon. The already mentioned wrangled Saint allies national park and preserves America's largest park. That's the one that's thirteen point two million acres larger than the entire country of Estonia dwarfs any of the other national parks in the continental US death valley. National park is the largest national park outside of Alaska. Three point four million acres, the Appalachian, national scenic trail cuts to more states than any other land maintained by the national park system, traveled to fourteen states, a two thousand one hundred eighty mile footpath that seems to be a pretty high up on the list of a lot of hiking enthusiasts as far as their bucket lists go now me I'll take a little bit to see it to see a nice vista. But you know, maybe make it to a cool campsite may make it to a little a little fishing area. But walking two thousand miles just to fucking walk. No, I can think of so many other ways to enjoy long sabbatical. None of them involve walking, very far almost all of them involve planes automobiles quite beaches in a nice bed. The Appalachian national. Scenic trail was completed in nineteen thirty seven runs from Georgia to Maine. The smallest and arguably dumbest US national park is the Thaddeus Kosciusko national memorial. It's only point zero zero two acres in size and making it worse that he was polish in a frustrates me that we've chosen to devalue our entire national park system by giving any land to some fucking idiot. You know, it's terrible. Why not dedicate a park to a rat. Or maybe just an actual pile of shit. You know, welcome to the hang Jackson national park in one thousand nine to hang shit. That was verified it over eight pounds and it came out in one pace. And I know that's not a great reason started park, but hey, at least it's not fucking polish right now, new listener, please. No, I only make jokes like that. Because Torralba post wife in reality. I do have a love for polls. They know how to make a sexy lady hilas Safina, but that that is cashew SCO part Israel in it actually is only point zero two acres in size. The park is just a small home in acquaint location in Philly, and it is where the revolutionary polish hero lived. And the park story encompasses his role in the revolution. How his legacy lives on Poland. And in the US and his story is pretty bad ass. I feel like I should we take a quick detour. Right. Let me make amends for on my constant Poche lender. This guy is a bad ass. Thaddeus, Kosciusko was born in the polish. Lithuanian Commonwealth in seventeen forty six the manner. He was born in now sits in a Bill Roose because of shifting national boundaries of Poland Lithuania Belarus net. They all claim him to be a national hero. Hit a gifted military mind went to military, kademi and Poland. But later was unable to enlist as an officer when violence broke out in his homeland because he couldn't afford to pay the officer's commission back then you had to buy your way into being an officer in war that he has had the education, but not the do the then he then tried to fight in France as young man, but after auditing various military classes, he he actually wanted to enroll, but they didn't accept him because he was a foreigner. And he was not able to fight as an officer because of his foreign status there as well. And then he heard about the American revolutionary war. And he set sail across the Atlantic. Seventeen seventy six just for the chance to fight for the chance to prove his valor in battle, not his war. But but he liked what they were doing when he landed. He submitted an application to the second continental congress accepted in assigned to the continental army the very next day on August, thirty first first thing he did was to help build fortifications at fort billion sport and Paul's borough, New Jersey to the Bank to the Delaware river prevent a possible. British advance up the river to Philly, and he's a hell of a job. He was originally listed as an office era is a volunteer. But within a month had risen to the rank of Colonel of engineers, he was put in charge of planning the defensive strategy for his army at Saratoga who's defeated the British forces on October seventeen seventy seven would prove to be turning point the revolutionary war in seventeen seventy eight. He was commissioned to build the military fortifications at West Point in important defensive position on the Hudson river considered impenetrable after he was done the site eventually became the site of the US military academy by the war's end. Thaddeus was made a Brigadier General received US citizenship. Along with a medal for his service of the continental army. And then went back to fight some more. He went back to Poland to fight for his homeland now now let him fight. Now. He had some dough he fought against the Russian armies of Catherine the great on behalf of Poland quickly rose to commander in chief of the entire polish army before being captured by Russian forces after Catherine's death. Her son respected him so much. The execute him. He actually freed him released him gave him amnesty on the condition that he just don't return to Poland. That's in respect. Right. Gonna let you live, but don't ever live in Poland again because I don't wanna fucking fight you anymore. Thaddeus, set sail for America received a hero's. Welcome became a close friend of Thomas Jefferson, and now he has his own piece of the US national park system. So that's a little overview of the national park system was some side knowledge about one of the best post people every with I can only I can only hope that my wife, Lindsey queens this. Here's that story. And just you know, just decides for wants to do something to do with her life. So that's that's really why put that in there. The US national park system covers a lot of different land. In a lot of different parts of the country employs roughly twenty thousand people an additional three hundred and fifteen thousand people volunteer annually to keep the various monuments battlefields wildlife, refuges and more pristine, and you know, a pleasurable and teeny bit more trivia, roughly, a third of America's national park lands of monuments were closed down during our recent government shutdown which is crazy because furloughing federal park workers caused the parks to lose roughly four hundred thousand dollars a day an entrance fee revenue laying off workers and costing the taxpayers taxpayers. More money, a lose lose. But enough tangents. Let's get to the good shit. The weird shit the strange sometimes spooky happenings that have gone on over the years and four of our national parks too many stories in too many park to expand beyond that strange. Shit happens everywhere. You know? So some of it is bound to happen in these parks, and it sure did sure has we're gonna be talking about some juicy craziness today. Let's start with the first of four locations the Grand Canyon. Yeah. Yeah. Are the Grand Canyon? I famous park I ever went to a kid turned two hundred last month. Have you birthday Grand Canyon? It became a national park on February twenty six one thousand nine hundred nine the canyon is two hundred and seventy seven river miles long. It's almost five hundred kilometers up to eight hundred mile or eight up to eighteen miles excuse me wide twenty nine kilometers and a mile one point six kilometers deep, and it was the fifteenth site in the US to have been named national park and just like with many frequently visited large patches of land people have died there. Any large high traffic areas going to have a shared death? Do you actually know that roughly a hundred people die every year in Disneyland? Roughly two a week. Almost fifty percent of the deaths have occurred on splash mountain. Do you know that sometimes I lie about south? And sometimes they make up things actually actually at least nine people have actually died at Disneyland. This is true September fifth two thousand three I notice had nothing to do today story. But I had once I throw that line there. I had to look for the truth found out that real fact and then found out this on September fifth two thousand three twenty two year old man Marquel? Torres or more settled Torres of Gardena California died and several other guests were injured when a locomotive separate from the train along a tunnel section of big thunder mountain road. I'd not kidding Torres. Bled to death after suffering blunt force trauma. The chest fac what terrible place to die right to die on a ride at a place to bills itself as the happiest place on earth. But I am not here to try to make you scared to go to Disneyland. I'm here to try to make you scared to go to national parks or something like that. According to Grand Canyon park. Spokes. A spokeswoman Kirby Lynn Schakowsky another police person roughly twelve deaths occur each year at the Grand Canyon, including those from national causes medical problems. Suicide heat drowning in traffic crashes on average two to three deaths per year from actual falls over the rim. That's what she says. But Tom Myers author of over the edge deaths in the Grand Canyon. He thinks that number is way too low. He reports that around eight hundred people have died in the park since it opened February twenty six nine thousand nine hundred nineteen which would be roughly eighty Desi year as a as a little bit more than twelve while there's quite a disagreement over how many people die each year in the park. Everyone agrees that people do die and not all of them die from natural causes or from a fall over the edge when trying to get that perfect selfie, which does happen. Some Darwin awards going out of Grand Canyon a variety of murders have occurred at the park over the years. Now, let's talk about Robert Spangler nineteen Seventy-eight Robert Spangler shot. His wife Nancy and their two children to death in their suburban Denver home. And he didn't staged the scene to make it look as if Nancy killed their children in a murder suicide despite his hands testing positive for gun residue and despite detectives being suspicious of Robert from the very start the police just didn't have enough evidence to build a case against this widower. Now, what does that murder have to do with the Grand Canyon as nice late incident? Nothing it's his next murder that involves the park while we're bringing him up today. Robert Wood Mary and kill again fifteen years later while they at the Grand Canyon in nineteen Ninety-three who subtle bitch. Threw his third wife Donna over the edge. Just fucking through down the canyon she plunged over two hundred feet to her death. Detectives again were suspicious, but they didn't have enough evidence to prove anything they could not prove that she didn't accidentally slip and lose her balance, and he got away with murder again, then in two thousand he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and an investigator Paul Goodman, a guy who'd never. Forgot about Robert went his doorstep in the hope that he just might be ready to confess what he actually did before he died in this. This investigator was correct and Spangler confessed to all four murders. Mostly because he wanted FBI profiles to tell him. Why he was so good at killing not because he fucking shit about murdering his own children and two of his wife's he was sent to life in prison in marshy dolls in one. And then he died of cancer five months later, and how does this extra weird detail related the Grand Canyon? His second wife. The only one of the three he didn't murder wrote a book on the Grand Canyon on foot in the Grand Canyon, hiking trails of the south room before he killed his third wife, and I just wonder if he used his ex-wife guide to find a good spot to throw his current wife off a fucking cliff. My god. There have been numerous other Grand Canyon murders over the years. Many of them unsolved in January of nineteen seventy seven the bodies of Michael Charlotte. Sherman were discovered after having been shot execution style in two thousand six swimmers. Discover the body of a thirty four year old Japanese tourist blow waterfall she'd been stabbed twenty nine times. And she and her body was reminiscent of a nother murder of Japanese tourists who was stabbed to death the south rim of the canyon several years earlier, actually, how hard to say how many murders have been committed in the Grand Canyon because they're oftentimes isn't a weapon involved. The park is the weapon when somebody's bodies found at the bottom of a cliff hard to say if they slipped jumped or pushed or thrown over. Recently on October first two thousand eighteen to hikers traverse to cliff about one hundred feet below the south from the Grand Canyon. They were almost as the social trail, which is a trail not recognized by the National Park Service, but created overtime lots of visitors. This particular social social trail runs under the trail view are trail to overlook one of the parks most popular destinations on a clear day. You can see the full expanse the canyon from his overlook as the two hikers made their way around the base to cliff. They came across the bodies of a couple in what park spokesman person carry Cobb calls close proximity to one another neither of the deceased carried any identification with them, nor was there any evidence. They brought a backpack water or other supplies not clear. How long they've been dead or how they died. Their bodies were eventually identified as Garrett bonkowski twenty-five Jessica bar twenty two both from pure area. Arizona suburb of Phoenix they've been recorded entering the park at approximately three thirty PM on September eighteenth presumably as part of an extended road trip they were taking as relocated to Iowa. Oh. Everything else about what Bunkowsky embarks, you know, how they died on the trail of what they did remains a mystery that will probably never be solved did one push the other over the edge then overcome with guilt throw themselves down to their death as well did one fall to the other bravely trying to save them only to fall as well did a third party push both of them over the edge. Did they both voluntarily jump? Did. They will slip without witnesses or security Cam footage. You just don't know. There have also been a number of deaths that were clearly suicides at the Grand Canyon. The first one. I read about is probably the craziest suicide I have ever heard of after watching the film Thelma and Louise more than fifty times thirty six year old Patricia Adolpho attempted to drive her car off the rim and straight into the Grand Canyon. Just like in the movie except without the police cornering her and her being wanted for murder. She drove solo so parents she was not able to find a Louise to go with her Thelma. I wonder if she tried to recruit anybody, I doubt that would be a tough sell. That's a that's a tough one to find this. Oh, my God fell in Louise is your favorite movie to oh, we should totally watch together. And then we can just drive my car to the Grand Canyon. Yeah. Okay. We yeah. We should tell you that Patricia. Do you really want to? I'll I'll drive I'm free to drive us over the cliff next Monday. We are are you fucking serious. No. There was a movie Susan Sarandon and Gena Davis. Didn't actually drive off a cliff. You know that right? Okay. Stop at Kim. Just because you don't wanna drive off a cliff me doesn't mean Huckleberry room favorite movie. Patricia really did try this pedal to the metal. She drove straight to the edge. And then the car suspension got caught a little outcropping of rock unable to drive over the edge her car now fucked up she could have interpreted this as a sign she wasn't supposed to die that day. Nope. She gets out of the car walks over to the edge of the cliff and now throws herself off and still doesn't die. She lands twenty feet six meters below bloodied bruised but still alive. I think that Austin powers, but I'm still alive. I think was like will Ferrell falls in the trap door, I'm badly burned. But still alive the second time. It's just a few minutes. She has now tried to kill herself in the universe is intervened. Said hold up. I are you sure you don't have to do this. You don't have to make this decision. He doesn't have to be so permanent. But she does she tries a third time to kill herself. She crawls to the edge of the cliff. She had just jumped down to an and she's so beat up. She can't even like like jump off. She rolls off of the cliff and now dice. Man that is a suicide attempt that is not a cry for help that is a scream of IM fucking out of here. So sad to chances to stop and think I shouldn't do this. But you're listen, and she's not the only person to attempt suicide by driving your car off a cliff into the Grand Canyon in two thousand nine fifty seven year old George Chirac checks out of the L to Avar hotel. Then drives his car straight over the edge of the south rim proving once and for all that men really do drive better than women. And I know it's a terrible joke. It's tasteless. It's fucking tasteless. But come on it practically wrote itself. I know. It's sad. I know it's set, but those two back it's like it's like the ball was right there on the t. Back in two thousand and four man in his twenties committed a very unusual suicide when I know that so messed up. I might get some emails over that one. But back in two thousand four minutes twenty s committed a very unusual suicide we he jumped out of a helicopter while on a scenic tour the other passengers described him as seeming quiet and normal before. Leaping into the deepest part of the canyon four thousand feet below now. And I know this is also super dark, you guys know based on other episodes. I guess if you're a new listener, you know, we've donated his suicide prevention charities, I'm very against it. But there's already happened would have been pretty funny if the other passers of the helicopter would have described him as being like, very impatient. Right. Like, I don't know. He seemed pretty annotated right before the jump. I mean, he said he forgot he made some plans with some friends who hiked the bottom, and he said he was running late. He has the pilot to quickly take him to the bottom win the pilot refused. He just muttered like no fuck Athena's fucking do myself. And then he just jumped. All of these deaths. I know tragic and say have led to some alleged haunting 's located just twenty feet just six meters from the south rim, the El Tovar hotel are just mentioned was the height of luxury when it opened for business nine hundred five and it's been haunted pretty much from day. One. At least according to numerous guests with sworn to have seen strange dark figures wandering about the buildings rooms and hallways. Now, maybe some of the haunting that have occurred since nineteen thirty four have to do with a dude who was buried right in front of the fucking hotel is a true story. Just a few feet from the building's front doors. Lies a flat, inconspicuous. Gravestone with an epitaph that reads Pearl a ward eighteen seventy nine to nineteen thirty four. Why would you bear some Barry somebody right outside the front door ever since the mid thirties? Countless visitors employees have claimed to see a black caped figure walking from the stairway to the grave sites before wandering off and disappearing into the woods. The Cape is a weird touch. If I had to see a ghost walk into a grave. I think I prefer to have them not have a Cape. Kate makes them seem malicious. Sinister right. Who has a fucking Cape. Creeps and nuts. That's who came asking. If you showed up to a first date and your date was wearing a Cape, highly doubt, your reaction would be like fuck out finally found the one you're only thinking that. If you're also some silly goose who wears a Cape to places. Many other visitors over the years of claim to have witnessed at well-dressed elderly gentlemen on the third floor some guests of even reported being invited by that man to attend to hotels annual holiday celebration for the last several years, the TV in the hotel's lobby will suddenly turn a self on a play Thelma. And Louise if it's unplugged. Always plays the scene of the car going over the cliff, and that's not true. But that'll be scared at work, right? And now because of my bad jokes. I made I'm kind of worried that my TV's who do that it will it will for sure be the death of this podcast if that happens because I will I will literally die from fright. Okay. No, more Grand Canyon death. Let's get wackadoo ADL with my favorite Grand Canyon story. So far. This is great in April of ninety nine the Zona gazette published a lengthy story about an explorer from Idaho, Idaho, finding a gigantic hidden city in a Grand Canyon cave. I want to read you. I'm going to read you two articles about his explore in his discovery and remind you that these stories were printed in an actual newspaper, a reputable newspaper in Phoenix that would go on to become the Phoenix is in the Zona Republic. This paper has been published in some form all the way from eighteen ninety five nineteen Ninety-seven. This story was presented his actual news. The first article about the man who found a loss dejection sitting Arizona was printed on March twelfth nine thousand nine and it says, gee, can Kate of lewiston, Idaho. Arrived at Yuma after trip from green river lion down the entire course of the Colorado river, he is the second man to make this journey and came alone in a small skiff stopping at his pleasure that that's real as I didn't to investigate these surrounding country. He left green river in October having a small covered boat with ORs and carrying a fine camera with which he secured over seven hundred views of the river and canyons which were unsurpassed Michigan cage says that one of the most interesting features of the trip was passing through the sluice way. At Laguna dam. He made this perilous passage with only the loss of an or some interesting, archaeological discoveries were unearthed and altogether. The trip was of such interest that he will repeat it next winter in the company of friends, and they love to say pleasure reckoned in he stopped at his pleasure and joined the one touch of his own body is you floated down the cold, Colorado. Seriously, nothing to interesting so far. Right. We'll check out this next article, apparently, Mr. Kincaid could not wait until next winter to bring his friends down to Arizona because he had found the coolest thing ever this next article published a few weeks later in April fifth is fucking fantastic. This is a work of wackadoo art. I love that. It was printed. When you hear this? Try to imagine yourself reading this in Phoenix in one thousand nine it's a small sunbaked desert city only only about ten thousand people that time the town based in farming largely and being a stop along the railroad a new railroad made it a good spot to ship goods from the southwest back east. You know, imagine that you're used to reading articles about what's going. On back in Washington DC about the construction of some new dams in the area. They're gonna bring more water for more crops about railroad progress. The passing of some locals the bursts marriages locals some land going up for sale, maybe an article or two about the former sucks subject poncho via you know, involved in some shootouts, some some Tom foolery around the Mexican border. You're used to that kind of stuff and then one day in April you read this shit. The latest news of the progress of the explorations of what is now regarded by scientists is not only the oldest archaeological discovery in the United States, but one of the most valuable in the world, which was mentioned some time ago because it was brought to the city yesterday by GE can Cade the explorer who found the great underground citadel of the Grand Canyon during the trip from green river, Wyoming down the Colorado in a wooden boat to Yuma several months ago because with this several months ago because the article just came out the month before, but anyway, according to the story related to the zapped by Mr. Kincaid, the archaeologist. The Smithsonian institute, which is financing the expeditions have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove that the race which inhabited this mysterious cavern Hyun in solid rock by human hands was of oriental origin, possibly from Egypt tracing back to Ramsey's. If they're theories are born out by the translation of the tablets engraved with hieroglyphics the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America their engine arts who they were and Wednesday came we'll be solved Egypt in the Nile, the Zona and the Colorado. We'll be linked by historical chain running back through the ages, which staggers the wildest fence he of the fiction est in the next section says they thorough examination under the direction of professor s eight Jordan the Smithsonian institute is now proceeding with the most thorough explorations, which will be continued until the last link in the chain is forged nearly a mile underground about fourteen hundred feet below the surface. The long main passage has been delved into to find another mammoth chamber from which radiate scores of passageways like the spokes of a wheel. Several hundred rooms have been discovered reached by passageways running from the main passage one of them having been explored for eight hundred fifty four feet and another six hundred thirty four feet. The recent finds include articles which have never been known as native to this country and doubtless they had their origin in the orient war weapons. Copper instruments sharp edged in heart. A steel indicate the highest state of civilization reached by these strange people so interested have the scientists become that preparations are being made to a the camp for extensive studies and the force will be increased to thirty or forty persons key. Finding a measuring this some huge underground city has been discovered in the Grand Canyon, and is connected Egyptians and the writer keeps saying the orient, which is weird was Egypt, which is part of Africa considered part of the orient at some point. I guess I guess maybe by some people so wonder if you will weird. Okay. So he goes he goes on Mr. cage reported says, Mr. Kincaid was the first white child born, and I. Idaho, and has been an explorer and hunter all his life thirty years having been in the service of the Smithsonian institute, even briefly recounted his history sounds fabulous. Almost go task. I I would impress. This is Mr. Kincaid. Now, I I would impress the cavern is nearly inaccessible. The entrance is fourteen. Eighty six feet down the sheer canyon wall. It is located on government land novato will be allowed there. Under penalty of trespass. The scientists wished to work on molested without fear of archaeological discoveries being disturbed by Curiel. Or really counters a trip. There would be fruitless and the visit would be sent on his way the story of how I found the covered has been related but in a paragraph. I was journeying down the Colorado river, a boat alone. Looking for mineral some forty two miles up the river from the L two of our crystal canyon. I saw on the east wall stains in the sedimentary formation about two thousand feet above the riverbed. There was no trail at this point. But I finally reached it with great difficulty about two shelf, which hit it from view from the river was the mouth of the cave above show. Excuse me. There are steps leading from this entrance. Some thirty odds to what was at the time. The cavern was inhabited the level of the river. When I saw the chisel marks on the wall inside the entrance. I became interested. Securing my gun, and I went in during the trip. I went back several hundred feet along the main passage till I came to the krypton which I discovered the mummies one of these I stood up in photograph by flashlight gathered a number of relics, which I carry down the Colorado to Yuma from whence. I ship them to Washington with details of the discovery following this the explorations were undertaken if this article was written in the past two decades. I would swear some fucking looney toon watched Indiana Jones movies. They watched him way too, many times, maybe tomb raider. Didn't just went crazy. Like, I love the whole. I found the coolest thing ever, but he'll buy they're looking at because the police will arrest you, they'll send you on your way trespassing, so don't don't come. Check out the coolest thing anyone's ever found not fishy at all. And again, imagine imagine you're sitting in some dusty saloon in Phoenix drinking some shitty coffee, but a little whiskey so can your own sweat from the devilish heat. And then you read that, you know, this is some home nego Salem. I wanna feel like a real he'll this just some groups gripped, and it continues says the the passages. The main passageway is about twelve feet wide, narrowing to nine feet toward the father end about fifty seven feet from the entrance. The first side passages branch off to the right and left along which on both sides or a number of rooms about the size of an ordinary living room of today, though, some are thirty by forty feet square. These are entered by oval shape, doors, and are ventilated by round airspaces through the walls into passages. The. The walls are about three feet six inches in thickness. The passages are chiseled or Hyun straight is could be laid out by an engineer. The ceilings of the many of the rue many of the rooms converge to a center the side pastures near the entrance. Rented a sharp angle from the main hall but toward the rear. They gradually reached right angle and direction the shrine over one hundred feet from the entrance is the cross all several hundred feet long in which are found the idol or image of the people's God sitting cross legged with a Lotus flower or Lillian each hand, the cast of the faces oriental and the carving this cavern the idol almost resembles Buddha, though, the scientists are not certain as to what religious worship it represents taking into consideration. Everything found us far it's possible to this worship most resembles the ancient people of time pet. Okay. So it's not a gypsum. Maybe some ancient culture this spawned. The Egyptians, man. It's probably Atlantis. Probably probably it surrounding this idler smaller images, some very beautiful inform others crooked, Nick and distorted shape. Symbolical probably of good and evil. There are two large cactus with. Protruding arms one on each side of the dice on which the gods squats. So it's a weird cat has God that is also Tibetan. And is also a chip, you know, what it almost seems like he's making all this shit up. All this is carved out of hard rock, resembling marble. Oh, get fucking marble now in the grain in the opposite corner of this cross. All we're found tools of all descriptions made of carpet. These people undoubtedly knew the lost art of hard in this metal which has been sought by chemicals for centuries without result on a bench running around the workroom with some charcoal. Another material probably used in the process, there is also slag and stuff similar to Matt showing that these ancient smelted ores. But so far no trace of way, or how this was done or has been discovered nor the origin Dior among the other fines or vases, urns cups of copper and gold made very artistic and design. The pottery work includes enameled ware, and glazed vessels, another passageway leads to granaries such as those that are found in the oriented temples. They contain seeds of various kind bullshit seats. One very large storehouse has not yet been entered as it is twelve feet high and can be reached only from above to copper hooks extend on the edge, which indicate that some sort of ladder was attached. These granaries are rounded as the materials of which they are constructed. I think is a very hard cement a gray. Metal is also found in this cavern which puzzles the scientists for its identity has not been established symbols platinum strewn promiscuously over the floor everywhere. What people call cats is a Yellowstone of no great value. Each one is in grave with the head of malay- type the hieroglyphics on all the earns a Wald's over doorways the tablets of stone which were found by the image of the mysterious hieroglyphics the key to which the Smithsonian institute hopes yet to discover the engraving on the tables probably has something to do. With the religion of the people similar hieroglyphics have been found in southern Arizona. Among the pictorial writings only to animals are found one is of prehistoric type the crypt the tomb of krypton, which the mummies were found is one of the largest. The chambers. The wall slanting back at an angle of about thirty five degrees on these are tears of mummies each one occupany occupied a separate Hyun shelf at the head of each is a small bench on which is found. Copper cups and pieces of broken source. Some of the mummies are covered with clay all wrapped in bark fabric, the earns of cups on the lower tiers are crude while is the higher shelves are reached the earned the final design showing a later stage of civilization is worthy of note that all the mummies examined so far do Email. No children are females being buried this leads to the belief the exterior section was the warriors barracks. Among the discoveries. No bones of animals have been found. No skins, no clothing bedding. Many of the rooms are bad. But for the water vessels one room about forty seven hundred feet was probably the main dining hall for cooking utensils have been found. What these people lived on his a problem, though, it is presumed that is a problem and your fucking make LSU up though, it is presumed that they came south in the winter and formed in the valley's going back north in the summer. Upwards of fifty thousand people could have lived in the caverns comfortably won theory is that the present Indian drives found in Arizona are descendants of the slaves of the people who inhabited the cave undoubtedly a good many thousand of years bef- thousands of years before the Christian era. A people lived here who reached a high stage of civilization the chronicle the chronology of human history is full of gaps. Professor Jordan is much enthused over the discoveries and believes that the will find will prove of incalculable value in archaeological work, so let me get this shit straight, very advanced civilization capable of carving out the space for a giant city in the rock of the Grand Canyon a civilization reliant on agriculture. Why wouldn't they build their civilization? I don't know maybe fucking closer to the fields where where people actually grow shit. Why would you build it way in the bottom of a canyon cave? Like why Bill in place that is the biggest pain in the ass to get to a place where you don't have room to farm. There's no livestock to graze down there. A place. Where if you hunt for food if to fuck in drag your kills down to the bottom of the goddamn Grand Canyon seems a tad bit party plant that that to me is the main problem with the folklore concerning underground cities. How are you gonna eat? Right. What is people eating store and all the meat or like these caves that he's don't make sense to me? Why are these people's living on fucking mushrooms and worms L the allegation do that? By the way. I don't think you probably should that. You probably shouldn't live on mushrooms worms. Probably also not too good to live in a cave where you're reading it. Now getting a lot of vitamin d you you look like shit. If you lived in a cave and ate mushrooms and wharfs does dude your skin man is falling off in fucking patches. Dude, what even living on mushrooms and worms. This. He's adly. Correct. Please excuse me what I out for mount attrition. One thing. Jesus Christ us, right? Forgot this article goes a little bit more thought we were done. He says one thing I've not spoken of which may be of interest. There is one chamber of the passageway, which is not ventilated. And when we approached a deadly snaky, smell struck us are light would not penetrate the gloom until stronger ones are available. We will not know what the chamber contains some say snakes. But others boohooed is I o the boohooed is ideal and think it may contain a deadly gas or chemicals used by the ancients. No sounds are heard, but it smells snaky just the same. The whole underground insulation. Gives one of shaking the creeps. The gloom is a way to one shoulders and our flashlights and candles only make the darkness blacker imagination can revel in conjectures ungodly daydreams back to the ages that will have elapsed till the mind reels dizzily in space, what are you reading fucking poetry? Smelling snaky, how per yeah. This whole story smells, pretty sneaky. Next action is an Indian legend in connection with his story. It is notable that among the Hopi Indians. That tradition is told that their ancestors once lived in an underworld in the Grand Canyon, tell dissension arose between the good in the bed the people of one heart and the people of two hearts, which Eto who was the chief counsel them to leave the underworld. But there was no way out the chief in caused a tree to grow up in pierced, the roof of the underworld and the people of one heart climbed out they Terry by the Red River, which is the Colorado and grew grain and corn. They sent out a message to the temple of the sun asking the blessing of peace. Goodwill and rain for the people of one heart that messenger, never return. But today at the Hopi villages at sundown can be seen the old man of the tribe out on their house tops gauging towards the sun looking for the messenger. When he returns their lands in ancient dwelling place, we'll be restored to them that is the in among the engravings of animals in the cave was seeing the image of a heart over the. Spot. Where is located the legend was learned by w Rollins the artists during a year spent with Hopi Indians. Man. Fuck it's all coming together. Man Egyptians Indians. It's all part of the same. Ancient advanced culture. I get why kept saying or it. Now, man, you know, they make sense this. Now, the story is you as you can imagine caused a huge sensation when it was published, and as you can imagine it was almost immediately discredited the Smithsonian has no record of either of these scientists nor their discoveries and firmly quells any claim that addition artifacts have been found anywhere in north or South America. Also, no one was able to find the giant caves there were in about no evidence of a civilization described in this area and outside of the story. There is no proof of anyone named GE Kate. There's no Idaho born explore name net. There is no professor essay, Jordan. This Massoni has no record of someone of either name everyone fucking anything for them considering the lack of evidence in a pure off the wall sensation of the report, it seems like there's a very good chance that this was just a hoax perpetrated by the newspaper to sell. More copies of the paper which did happen from time to time with old paper. They would just write insane stories to sell papers despite this being an obvious hoax. There are a lot of people who still believe this tale today. This story has woven into the fabric of wacky doodles. Other fringy authors explores have claimed to find the same cave conspiracy. Theorist John Rhodes, he claims to know the secret of the cave. Although, of course, he won't say where it is. He says it's constantly guarded by armed security ad that has become the base of operations for a shadowy secret luminosity type society, of course, it has and my favorite wacky doodle. David Ike the man behind the lizard illuminate conspiracy. The man behind the conspiracy about alien lizards ruling the earth he believes in this city. I believe that the Kincaid cave system. Not only exists, but is one of the villains. Most important underground cities right up there with the Denver airport in his nine hundred ninety nine masterpiece. The biggest secret a copy rest here in the sucked. Engine Ike writes in one thousand nine subterranean city, which was built with the precision of the great. Pyramid was found by GE Kincaid near the Grand Canyon in Arizona. It was big enough to accommodate fifty thousand people and the mummified bodies found were of oriental or possibly a gypsy origin. According to the experts expedition leader, professor essay, Jordan, my own research suggests that it is from another dimension the lower fourth dimension where the ripped Ilian control and manipulation is primarily orchestrated. Right another. Well, researched fact, spread to the masses by truth seeker by truth. Spreader David Ike. No, let's see what the mass is think about this lost city in today's idiots of the internet. The internet. Okay. I today I found a video titled GE can Cade Egyptian artifacts in the grand. Canyon is published on July fifth two thousand seventeen by ancient mystery, the videos descriptions, pretty sweet, it says the Egyptians Grand Canyon the Egyptian artifacts and the real history of the mighty unforgiving grand. Canyon all start by bringing this to your attention, prime minister, new bar Pasha of Egypt was first prime minister of Egypt was the first is supposed to and served. His first term from January eighteen four eight eighty four to June eighteen eighty eight he contacted the US department of state and requested that all of the artifacts found in the Grand Canyon to be returned to Egypt. He also requested that no more information about a shins ever being in the Grand Canyon be published by this Massoni institution. So it seems this Massoni has also been silenced at around the same time giant discoveries. We're increasing GE can Cade served in the Marine Corps. After retiring he worked for essay, Jordan as an archaeologist Jordan was. Into the Grand Canyon by the Smithsonian to to investigate the information. That was reported by John Wesley Powell the tunnel is presently on cliff wall three hundred ninety five feet above the present flow of the Colorado river in the Grand Canyon archaeologists estimate that meant that the man made cavern is around three thousand years old watch video for more information on the in the Grand Canyon found by GE Kincaid mythology explored by ancient mystery on YouTube. Okay. The only true parts of that description is that there really was an explorer named John Wesley Powell who did it for the Grand Canyon in eighteen sixty nine, but he did not find gypsum anything. Fucking nothing. Also, new Pasha was the first prime minister of Egypt. But he never demanded that this Massoni return ancient Egyptian artifacts found in the Grand Canyon to Egypt because it never happened any any. Of course, never demanded that the Smithsonian to be silent. And even if he did who gives a fuck what Egypt thinks like that's such a ridiculous thing. Like, I mean, no offense. If we like a. Option listeners, but Egypt has never been even close to a military threat to the United States like Egypt could ask us or demand. Whatever it wants. We would never listen right each. Really, hey Smithsonian. I want you talking about Egypt. We'd like we fucking give a shit. What you want? We'll take over your country. If you don't let us do more archeology digs. All right. What do you have like seventeen people in your army? So so this is this is all nonsense. This is the Mehta fairytale repeated over and over again on Janke s website to try to sell you shit like mono, Tom golden or miss. Okay. So here's the comments, Lou Hernandez posts, another amazing video. Thank you. After the report and the Phoenix newspaper in early nineteen hundreds this Smithsonian covered up, the discovery what a crime, this would completely change our history and raise many more questions, particularly with the Aztecs and Mayans the gypsies really were technologically advanced how are they able to cut these underground cities so smoothly while I'll tell you how they were able to do it loo-. They didn't do it. That's how they never did it. So it's you're able to do a lot of things when you don't actually have to do anything you when you get to make up whatever, you know fact, supposedly happened also wind God's name with the Smithsonian want to cover this up. Why would they want to cover up the single greatest greatest? Are he'll Hodge ical discovery in all of North America. If not the entire. That makes zero sense. Like, why would a museum that makes money charging people to see cool shit? Hide the coolest shit they've ever found especially when they found it in their own country on land of the government owns is the easiest fucking be the best thing that ever happened. This Massoni that's like saying an oil company has covered up the discovery of a massive amount of previously undiscovered oil discovered on land that the oil company already owns and has the right to mind. Like, there's no motive this is what kills me about so many conspiracy theorists. They have no fucking clue how to understand motive like like when there is zero motive for the conspiracy. There is no conspiracy say that over and over again, there's no conspiracy. When there's no motive Nathaniel baron posts a little time suck reference, even though I'm strongly guessing, he's not a time sucker. He says, great info. There are those that theorized that the whole canyon was man made the rock formations. Look a lot like. Like those found in the area of Sodom and Gomorrah along nimrods castle along with nimrods castle. Also, just the name a few. So I'm inclined their grammar so terrible. It's actually hard understand what they're fucking trying to say some types just an elk too. Okay. Anyway, he says I'm inclined to agree with him. I had no idea that Nimroz was building amazing cities halio Nimrod. Now, I by Nimrod bills a city in a bottle of the Grand Canyon for the cult of the curious to live in when Armageddon hits it makes sense. That's when we go full coat. That's when we start having so much sex with each other. And we wait for the end of the world because I do think that at some point if you're a Colt, right? I think you have to go to a compound in you have to fuck it to their whole bunch and wait for the end of the world. I'm pretty sure that's in one of the first five rules of how to start a cult, which is a book. I'm sure someone who's probably in summer there actually are those who theorize that the that. The canyon was manmade. They're called maniacs in wackadoo hills. Den bow post never heard of this before. Of course, you haven't it's nonsense. That's the reason you haven't heard of it. It's gobbly Gook user tan min eleven o seven post them gibberish that prompts. Ancient mystery the channel to respond with a comment proven he or she is even more insane than I initially thought ten men posts. Do you believe the earth is flat? Have you heard the theory of mountains being gigantic trees that were cut down like devils tower, for instance, for fuck sake. Apparently, there are people who believe that the earth is flat. And that mountains are just a giant tree stumps. And then ancient mysteries responded with. I don't trust NASA. If they say, we live on a globe. I don't believe them credibility LOL. Credibility nasa. The rocks do appear to be stops. This is a real belief. There's actually belief among some flatter authors. That what we call forests are just tiny remnants of ancient of ancient vibrant world one that featured trees with trunks as big as mountains trees that reached the heavens some people believe that the things we call forests are in reality, just low lying bushes at the impoverished remains of an ecologically rich world that held forty mile high trees with trunks two miles across and how do we know this happened that they they left her there? Trump's tree stumps. Use me behind flattop mountains are actually remnants of behaving just giant trees cut down by large machines. Right. Those those same machines Doug all the canyons like the great canes like the Grand Canyon river valleys. They're just old quarry mines. They're cliffs have been, you know, by machines volcanoes are actually just heaps of industrial waste left behind from big big machines that ravaged the earth, toxic chemicals inside them. React, you know, generating heat and fire. That's what makes explosions why does certain people think this because it's how the world looks to them. Seriously, the earth appears flats so therefore it must be flat. They stand on a beach look out the ocean. It's flat world, not flat. These same people will look at devils tower in Wyoming and be like that are a giant tree stump. So therefore must be giant tree stump. You know, it's just that that logic of if something looks like something it must be that thing. It's fucking idiotic de people have no understanding of math known understanding of geology. Just a believe what I see that looks like something must be the thing. Robert Shrewsbury is apparently also an explorer, and he too is found evidence of ancient Egyptian life beneath the Arizona desert, of course. Yes, he posts from my work. I found several AGIP tunnels like can Cates cave. However, they would need to be handled with care, my machinery can detect a void or tunnel. Up to several hundred feet deep. These tunnels are about two thousand feet long and close to the little Colorado, connecting the larger Grand Canyon. I also get good readings on medals down deep with machinery, you gotta you gotta love post. It starts off with from my work immediately. You know, you're listening to a maniac from my work. I two of concluded that not all aliens. Do mean us harm from my work. I have determined that the city of Atlanta's is in fact, still inhabited by Moore people from my work. I have this is that my mother will begin to start letting me stale past ten pm on the weekends. Once I turn thirty five. She'll let me use my machinery. This guy didn't have any replies under this fantastic comment. So I thought about Addy one I actually typed out from my work. I was able to determine that you have no idea what you're fucking talking about. And the only tunnel you've ever found was discovered the day you were born, and that's your mother's vagina. But I didn't post it because it felt cruel Filipina Bali fellow just writing something that wasn't gonna convince Robert Shrewsbury or probably anybody else to no longer be in idiot of the internet. Injured. Okay. So now for one final quick Grand Canyon legend before we move onto another park. One of the tribes that inhabited the canyon long before European settlers showed up was the Hopi. And hope he believed in the God Masada the supposed keeper of death. And if you see strange lights coming towards you from within the canyon at night or you hear a faint tapping of rocks. Must saw is coming for you. Many canyon explores have allegedly experienced nausea anxiety short after hearing these rocks. Clanking large number of accidents have allegedly occurred following the sound of Masada. Excuse me. So maybe missiles tossing people off cliffs here and there, maybe he built the hidden AGIP city. Maybe he's fucking tired of people driving cars and do his canyon and literate up who knows time now for our next park in our next set of mysteries. Yosemite national park while Yellowstone became America's first national park in eighteen seventy two you'll seventy national park is actually the first wilderness site that the US government decided to protect in eighteen sixty four win conservationists convinced. Abraham mother fucking Lincoln to declare Yosemite valley and the Mariposa grove of giant soco's a public trust of California. This marked the first time the US government protected land for public enjoyment. And laid the foundation for the establishment of the national and state park systems on October first eighteen ninety congress set aside over fifteen hundred square miles about the size of Rhode Island for America's third a national park Yosemite. Located in the Sierra Nevada mountain range, just over one hundred fifty miles due east San Francisco home of El capitan, giant granite cliff that stands tall above Yosemite valley, one of the most popular rock climbing destinations in the world. There are ancient groves of sequoias, and so many waterfalls, but who gives us shit about nature day where we get weird. Right. We're let's let's talk about who's visiting the park. Let's talk about visitors who don't pay park entrance deuce because they're not from this planet, and they feel like they're above the law. Let's talk about some cheap ass UFO's on the evening September nineteenth two thousand to a strange disk appeared in the sky over Yosemite. National park a number of people captured the supposedly alien craft on video it is now recognized as one of some of the best UFO footage ever taken moments after the strange object was seen in the sky air force jets arrived and circled the area, but the pilots were unable to find anything. What did those people see in two thousand two and this incident is just one of many alleged UFO encounters that have occurred in Yosemite national park with numerous visitors claiming to have seen strange, lights and sky. Now, some of dismissed the sightings meteors or just optical illusions. But what is the truth? Now, I've watched this video to me, it looks like it's some sort of rocket to me, it looks like something probably from this world. But that's just me. And I'm just looking at one of many sightings. Who knows? I mean, Fresno, California less than sixty miles from the park. There have been so many sightings of similar looking pale long legged bipedal entities between Fresno and Yosemite. That people have actually started calling these creatures Fresno nightcrawlers, and they don't scare me one bit. I'm not even fucking scared. You guys 'cause it's a light outside right now and not alone. And I'm a long way from Fresno. I was you'll very differently if I was camping out in the dark Yosemite and saw some weird lights. In addition aliens Yosemite may also be cursed. Have we ever talked about a curse on this up before? Yes, the Mothman suck in that suck reference a curse on the land around point pleasant West Virginia where chief corn stock was murdered in seventeen seventy seven by some dirty dealing commander of fort Randolph for crimes he never committed. And it was believed by some to the land was put under a curse for one hundred years. And now have another curse that has to do with American Indians being dealt dirty hand by some white settlers come on white settlers stopped doing curse worthy shit. When white settlers I arrive in Yosemite valley, they encountered a tribe of American Indians called the Awani who are a peaceful people, but also prone to occasionally post a little bit of livestock from their new neighbors an eighteen fifties. A new sellers decided they'd had enough of sharing the land with the locals who kept taking their shit, which I do understand. But also kind of hypocritical. Right. There's a little bit of an additive. Hey, win come over here and steal your land. Just to have you steal the shit that we put on the land we still for you. Where's your integrity? And I know I know I know it's more complicated than that the sellers weren't stealing land. They were legally settling land at their government had taken. But if you're a member of the Wani from their perspective, these motherfuckers still your land. And now, they won't even share their livestock with you, not cool. The settlers sought to relocate you wanted to a reservation near Fresno. The normally peaceful Awani led by chief tonight. You did not feel like moving understandable. I of new folks show up when you land without asking. And now, they think the land is theirs. And now they want you off. That land the Wani refused to leave to the settlers. Call for the army contingent of our men led by captain, John bowling show, up to forcibly remove the tribe and things go anything but smoothly instead of fleeing in fear when the troops show up the Awami fight back during the ensuing gunfight chief tonight, his son is killed and he invokes a curse on the valley and a curse against the white man legend has it the chief blared out this curse as he was confronted by an armed captain during the battle. He's supposedly said kill me, captain. Yes. Kill me. As you killed my son as you would kill my people if they were to come to you. You would kill all my race. If you had the power, you have made me sorrowful, my life dark you kill the child of my heart. Why not kill the father? You may kill me. So captain, but you shall not live in peace. I will follow in your footsteps. I will not leave my home, but be with the spirits among the rocks. The waterfalls in the rivers and in the wind wherever you go. I will be with you. You will not see me, but you will fear. Or the spirit of the old chief in grow cold. That's a fucking intense shit as doesn't good curse I've ever heard one since that fateful day tonight canyon, and by some accounts, the whole Yosemite valley has been plagued by all sorts of freak accidents strange deaths mishaps unexplained phenomena such as unexplained noises such a shadowy apparitions fucking shadow people. Of course, they're part of that curse. That the scariest things in existence. There are supposedly far more incidents of rock climbing and hiking accidents and fatalities tonigh- in that area than other places in the park. So many people have gone missing that that the area has earned itself. The ominous nickname of the Bermuda triangle of Yosemite, even the legendary naturalist and extremely experienced mountaineer John where was not immune to the supposed curse he had a near fatal accident while exploring the canyon in eighteen seventy three he wrote about it later nine thousand eighteen in his book steep trails writing, I was ascending precipitous rock front smooth by glacial action. When I suddenly fell for the first time, I touched foot to see our rocks after several somersaults, I became insensible from the shock, and when consciousness returned found myself wedged among short stiff bushes. I cannot remember what made me fall or where I'd fallen from. But I saw that if I had rolled a little further my mountain climbing would have been finished for just beyond the bushes. The canyon wall Stephen, and I might have fallen to the bottom. Also, the official park trail guide map marks a hike through the cursed land in stark red with a disclaimer that says hiking in tonight canyon is dangerous or excuse me as dangerous and is strongly discouraged are now talking about some huntings. We've talked about you a foes talked about curse land. What else has happened in Yosemite? Ghosts the majestic Yosemite hotel, formerly known as the Awani hotel named after the previously mentioned doom tribe is supposedly full of all kinds of spirits and spooky creepy shit. Open in nineteen twenty seven the Awani hotel. Immediately became one of America's premier vacation destinations. It was a large luxurious hotel built in an area known for mostly camping small lodges. It's elegant yet rustic organic feel and the majestic grandeur of its scenic surroundings committed a very popular spot. And now, it's popular with ghost hunters one spirit said to inhabit the hotel is the ghost of Mary Currie transmitter Mary was part of the hotel's design. She was part of the hotel's opening. She lived in a hotel for most of her life died in her private apartment inside the hotel nineteen seventy and her spirit supposedly lingers on the sixth floor where her room was located sightings of ever. Ghost are frequently reported by both staff and guests Mary has been reported to tuck and visitors as a sleep folder, close misplace items around rooms, and even occasionally call out to guess sounds like a pretty friendly ghost. Really how weird would it be tucked in by ghost like like, I think that'd be super scared at first to see the covers move, maybe even paralyzed with fear. But then maybe less scared if the ghost gently, tucked me, gently being the keyword in aggressive tuck in that doesn't make me feel safe makes you feel like you try and Chuck me out. Maybe suffocate me, no one likes to aggressive tuck, but a gentle tuck, and then fold, you know, my clothes that's a nice touch to a hotel. Stay that's not a bad haunting that's a sweet haunting I like sweet ghosts. And what if the goes happen to look like loose? Athena. Like sexiest lists FINA. Oh, man. All tattered up sexy. Fish nets black leather boots. Maybe maybe a black leather corset. Maybe some kind of garter belt situation. Some kind of black see-through through top. Maybe, you know, long thick kind of wavy black hair pulled into a ponytail of some kind. Maybe the hair shaved down to the skin on one side of the heads. Now. We're talking about a good hunting. That's that's kind of haunting. I'm into you know, I I don't I don't even mind an aggressive talk in that situation. I don't I don't mind an aggressive untucked. I don't mind a ripping off of the boxer briefs by the ghost. Maybe some other go stuff, maybe some spectral six maybe a little bit of warm goes for John doing some stuff. You know? Maybe that's okay. Maybe I should stop turning this episode and system creepy goes porn, maybe get back into national parks. Maybe I've just made this real weird for people listening with their kids. You know, I just want to say go sex if I'm going to be haunted. That's what I want. Now, another spirit said to inhabit, the Awami hotel is connected to a rocking chair. Air kept in the room that former suck subject and US president John F Kennedy the efforts for fuck John Kennedy. He stayed into that'd be so great. That was true. What is it's fuck actually, John Kennedy. It's john. Fuck fighter. Kill Kennedy is his name. He said he stayed there. During a visit nineteen sixty two a year before he become infamously assassinated at the at the time that shared been putting the room in the president's request because he had back pain. If you remember from that, south is back was hurting a lot. He reportedly spent a long time in the chair, call me rocking way, the chair was removed from the room when he left, but oddly since his death, a spectral rocking chair as often reported moving on its own in rooms and halls throughout the hotel's third floor, which is where his room was an especially these has been reported in the actual room itself. And the chair always seems to rock back and to the left back into the left could not help myself against ghost rocking chair. That's that's the scary to me if it's rocking gently and again, gently being key here, if it's an aggressive sparked like rocking back and forth. Like super unnaturally fast. Fuck that I grabbed my bags. I think goes for folding on my clothes. I think. The sex ghost for the sex. And I go home while the rocking chair and the goes to Mary Currie trumpeter are the most often cited spirits, they're not the only ones strange noises disembodied footsteps other apparitions haven't witnessed they actually helped inspire. The look in his or excuse me. The look of this hotel actually helped inspire the overlook hotel from Stanley Kubrick's classic horror film the shining. So this is like a known creepy hotel and the Yosemite. Awani hotel isn't the only haunted hotel in Yosemite national park. The Sierra sky ranch hotel is also allegedly haunted and has even scarier guests originally built in eighteen seventy seven the Sierra sky ranch start his life is a sanitarium for housing and quarantine victims of tuberculosis already getting creepy victims who lived mostly in squalor people forgotten by society, many of them died there. Many of them are kids who died there in later years. The premises became a home for veterans of World War One. And then it went on to become. Modest twenty nine room hotel. And that's what it is today. We're guest constantly report is strange excuse me, strange sightings and other paranormal activity one of the most common types of goes the occurrence at the Sierra sky ranch is that a phantom children. No, thank you. Spooky goes kids said to run up and down the stairs run up and down the halls. They can be heard doing a little creepy giggles. Doing weird whispers talking with no one's around whispers and giggles coming from the walls themselves. Fuck. No, no. Thank you gentle or not. I don't know. Why like ghost kids scare me? The most out rather if I had to pick between like a large scary ghost monster thingy or a little whispery giggly ghost kid thing. I'm gonna actually pick the monster. Goes kids man, Crete me out. These spectra children are reportedly most often cited in the media room in the main leaving room of the hotel blame for some of the poltergeist activity reported such as lights, faucets and appliances turning on and off doors opening or slamming shut guests close being tugged, what guess close being tugged by unseen hands. Oh, my that's when I die. That's my fall over dead of a heart attack. Other goes said to inhabit the Sierra sky ranch or a woman who supposedly lurks about the main house and library who smells perfume. Okay. I like that there's a ghostly bar patron who kisses bar visitors and bartenders on the cheek. All right. Okay. That's okay. And then there's the more sinister entity of a scowling angry looking man who paces around the hotel veranda and violently knocks over furniture. No. You sir can take goes kids, and you can go in the woods and violently knock around some brush, what we're known has the fucking here you there are so many tales of Huntington spirits in Yosemite national park dude entire time. Suck unjust these tales a couple we're not going to get to all of them today. But here's the last one Yosemite is most famous waterfall. Bridal veil fall cascades, six hundred seventeen feet down a sheer granite cliff. Also, maybe haunted the Awani tribe. We've spoken of believe that the the falls are haunted by an evil spirit called Bahonar Bahonar known to try and lure unsuspecting victims over the edge to their deaths. Sometimes Bahonar uses hypnotic rainbows in the midst to draw people closer, and in other cases, the spirit cries out to lure the curious to step one step too far out into the water. Sometimes Bahonar even appears as an apparition to beckon people close enough to the edge for a strong gust of wind to flip them over the false. And there are actually been a few recorded deaths over the years of people falling slipping over the fall being smashed into the rocks far below the wind super unpredictable the top of the false campers in the area. Have also reported hearing strange voices or sounds coming from the direction of the falls at night, and I actually found an audio recording. Supposedly of this of this entity recorded lab. Summer on June eleventh two thousand eighteen let me play it for you. Now have campers. Cool. Drink Chow and Domus tinian them build a gun. He has heard no spiritual. No is important anybody off no share. He just wants to hold your hand over and just feel the refers you first team more stab jars. He's trying to hear me talking to China. Tear me. On. Chow? So there's that recording. Waterfall spirit sounded sound like a drunk Woody fighting with Charles Guzman. So, you know, make it out what you wish Yosemite is also had its share of disappearance over the years are the Fresno nightcrawlers taken people is it the curse of the Awani. Is he goes maybe the most mysterious vanishing to have ever occurred at Yosemite. National park is the disappearance of fourteen year old Stacey and heiress in nine hundred eighty one. He stories always weird me out on the afternoon of July. Seventeenth nineteen Eighty-one. Aris was on a camping trip with her father and six others. At the sunrise here camp small cluster of cabins for people pass into an hikes along the popular mountain chalet. Loop airs expressed interest in taking some photos of a nearby lake. And since it was close by her dad says she was fine to go alone. Another member of the group a seventy two year old man named Gerald Stewart did decide to go with her as the to approach to lake the older man reportedly sat down to take a rest. They little break is heiress went on ahead. In the meantime, other members of the group were able to look down and see the whole thing from origi-. And they watched as eras disappeared into some trees when she didn't come back out of the trees within a reasonable length of time. The group goes and looks for her can only find the lens of a camera. No other trace of the girl whatsoever. An extensive official search of the area using helicopters and tracker dogs would have no luck finding her either. Even though they saw exactly where she disappeared. Eventually the search is called off because no one could find any evidence at all regarding what happened her park superintendent Robert Binny's would say at the time she just seems to have disappeared since she was wearing braces on her teeth or skeleton would be somewhat easy to identify. But no sign of her has ever been found. What happened or nobody knows something? She was abducted by aliens, something many people have been abducted by Elliot's Yosemite the National Park Service. They don't know because they actually also they don't keep track of missing persons in the park the National Park Service. Doesn't know how many individuals have disappeared in. Park over the years or as parks. So it makes me think about the Grand Canyon disappearances earlier who knows how many people are disappearing in the parks. David PO police or polite s- something David what David doesn't matter famous Ostra mysterious vanishing who has written numerous books on the matter in particular on those which have occurred within US national parks thinks the parks try to cover up the disappearances. He claims that during his investigation of the case park officials were vases and reticent to release any info on it when faced with a request under the freedom of information act, even going as far as to allegedly deliberately withhold and flat out hide facts relating to it. He repeatedly accused national park officials as being corrupt and suspiciously. Secretive on such mysterious disappearances is or something's going on more recently strange disappearances include the two thousand and five vanishing. A fifty one year old Michael Allen fishery who was an avid experienced hiker and backpacker on June fifteenth two thousand and five. Michael headed out to on hike along the northern end of the hetch hetchy reservoir, but at some point changes mind when of the Pacific crest trail that'd be the last time. Anyone saw him when he did not return for his wilderness permanent. Spire a search was carried out, but all that can be found was a backpack containing a topographical map a camera in a bottle of water massive search involving personnel from five counties utilizing aircraft and tracker dogs were unable to find any trace of the missing hiker and his case remains utterly unsolved in June of two thousand eleven there was the case of thirty year old George penka who was out hiking at the upper Yosemite falls with his church group during the hike fell behind the group proceeded to completely vanish off the face of the earth, despite extensive searches. No sign of him was ever found an strangely with him you seventy national park officials took down his missing persons page. Just a few weeks after he vanished. Damn you Fresno nightcrawlers Demi to hell so you meet sacks ready to book those those campus spots yet. A weird shit going on. Let's pick a different park. Now. Let's head east way east. Let's go crypto zoological. Let's go all the way to Puerto Rico and talk about the legend of the tuba Kabre right after today's sponsor. Time suck is brought to you today by hymns. I've been loving their morning blow vitamin c serum. And they're good night wrinkle cream in and I think, you know, I'm going to add their anti-aging prescription cream to my repertoire here soon sounds weird. But I like the way their stuff smells. I like. Having a nice citrusy start to my day in the morning makes you feel tropical makes me feel sunny, and then I like the chocolate coffee type smell of the good night wrinkle cream at night. And I love focus. So that smell makes me feel fancy, but it's not expensive. And that's my favorite kind of fancy. I like I prefer cheap fancy and if my Wayne ever loses its lean for him. You can help me there too. They put some stiff pride Beck into some soft. Shame Cox sexual performance issues pretty common but thanks to science erectile dysfunction. It's optional with forums dot com. Hymns connects you with real doctors and medical grade solutions to treat erectile dysfunction. They provide well known generic equivalents. Name brand prescriptions. They're not selling gas station counter supplements. So try hymns for a month today. Get started for just five bucks five bucks while supplies last see website for full details. This will cost you hundreds. If you went to the doctor or a pharmacy. Go to forums dot com slash time. Suck E D. That's F. O R H I M S dot com slash time. Suck e d forums com slash time. So easy link in the episode description now time for a UK. All right. So we now visit L UK national forest Twenty-eight thousand acres of rainforests was initially set aside in eighteen seventy six by king Alphonso the twelfth of Spain as one of the oldest nature preserves in the western hemisphere. And it became a national forest in one thousand nine hundred six located twenty minute drive. East of San Juan the rainforest is the largest block of public land on the island of Puerto Rico and also Puerto Rico's most visited natural attraction. There are over two hundred and forty species of plants and trees, no UK Tanno petroglyphs, there still may be some rare parrots none of unseen actually Sally sincere not alive. Anyway. Since the recent hurricanes Irma and Maria lots of frogs, lots of hiking trails and possibly some 'chupacabras. What is you Kara the great Nimrod? He's parts you cover Nimrod our times. God if you'll remember the giants space sasquatch the size of an entire galaxy with the head of a tuba Kavre. Who is a black unicorn with flaming stones fries. Hail nimrod. The regular old shoe macabre is a little blood drinking monster that especially likes the blood of goats, physical descriptions vary. Some report it to be heavy creature size of a small bear with a row spines reaching from the neck the base of the tail some describe it to be a reptile like creature said to have a leathery or scaly greenish grey skin and sharp spines or quills running down. His back often reported to be three to four feet tall and stands and hops in fashion similar to that of a kangaroo. Still others describe as looking like some strange Brita wild dog generally described as being mostly hairless with the pronounce spinal ridge. Unusually pronounced Izhak. Its fangs and claws, and is reported to drain all of his victims blood, and sometimes organs through three holes in the shape of a downwards pointing triangle still others describe it as a shifty eyed guy named Todd who works the cash. Register at these seven eleven on Friday and Saturday nights and never asked ID for six or beer and always wears shirts bit to unbutton to to tighten smells like cabbage. And of course, that lasted scripture is not true. This is this is not you cover. That's that's a creepy Todd, which is different creature. The Chiba cover is a strange strange beasts may come from a unique tales of macabre first emerged in Puerto Rico in the late nineteen ninety s actually specifically in nineteen ninety-five. This piece was thought to be responsible for killing and draining. The blood of livestock, which earned his nickname chip macabre Spanish for goatsucker and the first person to. Ever see this monster? We know the first sighting is Madeline Tolentino a woman from Canavan Venice, a small town east Puerto Rico, east of San Juan in Puerto Rico nineteen ninety-five she claims to a spotted a scary alien like creature out of a window. And this this little town. She lives is only about two miles from K and the legend quickly became the beast came from the park her story traveled fast, many reported sightings soon, followed soon reports of livestock were found drained of blood accompanied the sidings the legend quickly spread around the island, then the rest of Latin America into the southern US. And then it blew up online spread by UFO enthusiasts and conspiracy theories to the rest of the world, then in the early two thousands, a different Shuba Kabre arrived on the scene, the folklore evolved. This one shared some of the traits of the earlier sightings, but was a little less alien. And look this time it was described as a hairless dog like animal walking on four legs. And unlike most monsters, this type is not based exclusively on sidings Chiba cover bodies were supposedly found and then. Benjamin Radford a research fellow with the committee for skeptical inquiry began to investigate the reports of these bodies he would explain when you have a body. Everything changes, you have DNA samples you have bone samples you have more allergy. And as with all his missions Radford approach, the chew macabre with an open mind employing. Would he calls investigative skepticism? And he conducted fieldwork collected evidence and interviewed witnesses. He says I was of course, initially skeptical of the creature's existence at the same time. I was mindful that new animals have yet to be discovered. I didn't want to bunker dismiss it. If the macabre was real I wanted to find it and the obvious place for him to start looking was these chew become bodies. They'd mostly turned up in Texas and other south western US states and Radford, you know, investigated about a dozen hairless gone creatures with burnt looking skin DNA tests that he took furthered the mystery all of the DNA tests came back with the same result, humanoid of unknown origin. Very unsettling results that usually comes back on on a corrupted sample less than twenty different sets of unidentified biological remains have ever produced the result of humanoid of unknown origin. Even more troubling, a high level of radioactivity was detected on these remains more radioactive radioactivity was on these remains than remains of creatures found near tra- noble less than two years after the infamous meltdown. Also microscopic inspection revealed an alarming amount of orbital only rearranged mono atomic elements, it appears that these creatures wherever they were were living on basically nothing, but or miss even more disturbing a lot of the corpses began to reanimate during examinations. Most troubling some of these creatures begin to dance possibly even more troubling. They did the mock arena, and they seem to enjoy it. So lot of fucking weird shit that I just made up. No, the DNA tests came back and said that the the bodies of these Shuba coppers, we're actually the bodies of coyotes or coyotes, depending on where you live dogs racoons in one case in actual fish. So why now where people recording reporting coyotes raccoons as Shuba covers what got two words mind control dam, U, M K ultra. No, I have two different words. Cer- Coptic mange, the reason he's animals. Get dented Sheba covers is because they've lost their hair do to sarcastic main explains. Radford Cirkovic is caused by itchy inducing mites. Called sarcophagus scabby that burrow into the upper layer of the skin. It's a common thing can make ordinary creatures. Look like monsters, you can give a dog a raccoon or Coyote, a very sparsely haired nearly bald coat with red or hyper pigmented pigmented black thickened skin. And then you add self inflicted wounds to the creature because they've been scratching their hairless body, and you have a tuba copra. But what about the blood drained victims of the cheap macabre? The main doesn't explain that. Well, apparently, this is also easily explained the animals the Chiba commerce have attacked are most likely the victims of ordinary predators as not uncommon for various predators to bite an animal sometimes in the neck have the prey then still get away. And then eventually this prey the prey will die from internal hemorrhaging with no other injuries apart from the puncture marks. So why don't they appear to have any blood? Well, Radford explains when an animal dies, the heart and blood pressure. Stop the blood seeps to the lowest part of the body, and it coagulates thickens, it's called liberty, and it gives the illusion that they've been drained of blood. Okay. So of all this stuff is so is so explainable why does the legend live on well, basically because people like to believe in weird shit makes life exciting. The story of tuba Kabre may also be tied to a lack of trust in the American government fell by a lot of people in Puerto Rico, the Chiba cabraha, you know, could be like just another example of American expe. Tation meddling possibly the result of top secret US scientific experiments taking place in the UK rainforest. This is actually the most common explanation for for where this comes from Radford classifies the creature as the first internet monster as well. Saint at the first sighting had been in hundred eighty five instead of ninety five a couple of people would have heard of it. But but it wouldn't have gone viral and spread across the world. So as dig into this initial citing what inspired Tolentino to come up with her story in the first place, and I love this very possibly the nineteen ninety-five movie species the movie species, which I loved we had just been released in Puerto Rico and the first Shuba car witnessed. Yeah, there's Tolentino. She watched it just before claiming to see Chiba cabraha will this film revolves around top secret US scientific experiments, and it was partly filmed in Puerto Rico, right like experiments with like making weird creatures Radford says it's all there. She sees the movie the later, she sees. Something she mistakes for a monster species. Man, it may have been panned by critics, but it was actually a box office mash hundred and thirteen million bucks off his whole versus a thirty five million dollar budget and quite possibly gave the world Shuba copra, which is way cooler to me than any awarded could win. It's like, oh your film on Oscar. All right who gives a shit this film made a fucking monster. This film scares people who haven't even seen it. So there you go. So that's what L incase giving us Shuba Kabre possibly inspired by the movie species. Now under our last part. Now, I saved the best for last. Let's head back to California. Let's head back west home of mount Shasta and home of some super strange mysteries. We'll talk about after our final sponsor time. Suck is brought to you today by a new cartoon debut in on the cartoon channel Saturday mornings this spring pootie jujubes camp time wonder stories joined beloved comic cares. Put in you. As they run a cafeteria in a summer camp in yellow canyon mountain national monument park called Shirley's lunchbox here, your favorite classic catchphrases tier to dip pity zip juju, and and here's some new phrases written. Just for the cartoon dare yourself in the Kenyan if you don't like pootie, don't go chasing, waterfalls Jews you and even better meet the newest pootie and juju character, the duo's pet mangy. Bloodsucking raccoons creature thing to p no goats, no throats, cheapie, keep draining campers, and we'll have to close the lunchbox. So watch new episodes every Saturday morning at nine AM, the Mirian standard time the show is rated in our for not real now. Back to regularly scheduled interlude. Sock about mount Shasta. Mount Shasta is a potentially active volcano sits at the southern end of the cascade mountain range that cascades actually that starts in British Columbia Canada cuts down to Washington, Oregon into northern California at fourteen thousand one hundred seventy nine feet. It's the second highest peak in the cascades, just a few hundred feet shorter than Washington's mount Ranier clocking in at fourteen thousand four hundred and eleven feet. Located roughly sixty miles north of Redding, California, mount Shasta, sits in the Shasta trinity national forest a federally designated for us that is not technically part of the national park system. But the mountain itself is because nineteen seventy six mount Shasta was declared a national natural landmark, the landmark covers seven thousand nine hundred eighteen acres and mount Shasta is one of the world's largest and most impressive strata volcanoes a conical. Volcano built up by many layers of hardened lava. Teffera pufus and ash. Mount Shasta also contains five separate glaciers, and it's very pretty in a lot of people like to hike and climb on it and yada, yada, yada. Let's get some weird shit. Mount Shasta has long been an important natural national excuse me, important natural landmark in various kind of new agey, crunchy, Christly movements. People have believed and still do believe to the mountain is an active wormhole two hundred dimension people believed to frequent UFO hot bit of activity that you oppose live inside or around the mountain. That's a great place to to feel all kinds of positive natural energy. Get your shockers reliant for Madrid circle of some sage surround yourself with crystals drink juice infused with positive intentions. Not wear. Deodorant? Lather yourself and Pachulia never shave your legs. Listen to fish, bootlegs, not work very much smoke a ton of we'd all that kind of stuff. It's great for all that. But in the nineteen thirties. One eccentric took his new. Agents a little bit farther than most and started a Colt based on a trip to mount Shasta cold that exists still today guy w Ballard a mining engineer claimed that during the nineteen thirty visit to mount Shasta when he was fifty two years old. He was contacted by a being known as Saint Germain one of the ascended masters of the great white brotherhood. Now what the fuck is the great white brotherhood. You may think it's a good question. Surprisingly, it's actually not some type of white power movement. It's even where to the net. The white brotherhood are perfected beings of great power who spread spiritual teachings through selected humans. That's what some people believe. Most people think they don't exist who first alerted humanity to their existence one Helena, Petrovna Petrova Levinsky, aka Madame Levinsky, one of the founders of the THEO Sophal society. Now, do you remember that name we met Helena way back in the lost city of atlan? Suck. And she is if you'll remember a character. Holy shit issue character metal Levinsky claimed to have met the ancient masters the white brotherhood in the mountains of Tibet during this big spiritual journey of hers that she I'm sure never took claims. We'll take it and they shared long lost secrets with her including what happened to the lost city of Atlantis. This is the lady who thinks that Atlantis sank as the result of actual battles between basically fucking wizards, magicians and dragons and ancient atomic bombs. It is way too much to get into here. If you want to hear this crazy tail realistic to the Atlanta's suck. Madam Levesque David Eick level of crazy decades after Madame last death and h ninety one guy w Ballard guessing ws for wacky doodle decides to expand upon her teachings writing under the name of Godfrey Ray, king Ballard publishes, a book in one thousand nine hundred ninety four called unveiled mysteries sharing knowledge. He gathered at mount Shasta from Saint Germain. He claims to have received regular messages termed discourses from Saint Germain and other masters after his initial encounter one of the masters who talked him was none other than Jesus Christ. Yup. Because of this members of Ballard's new I m movement would consider themselves to be Christian guy and his wife EDNA w Ballard also w for lack of noodle claim to have received more than three thousand master messages during their lifetimes, which formed the body of the movements teachings and still forms. The the the the body of work today. The name I am is also Christian in origin. It's a reference to the bible. Verse in which God replies to Moses. I am who I am exodus three fourteen the Ballard's Inc. Movement in nineteen thirty two following guy. Ballard's death in nineteen thirty five excuse me. Nineteen thirty nine EDNA Ballard would become the movement's leader, and she would reveal messages she would receive from Saint Germain and other masters until her death in nineteen seventy one the board of directors which had been established at the movement's Inc. Nineteen thirty two would then take control of the movements. They still control today since nineteen seventy-one. No further messages from masters have been received because no new messenger has been appointed to succeed the balance. So if you are looking to take over a new Colt, right or I guess, we know the cold if you want to become a new cult leader. I think you should probably study up on Saint Germain stations go under around mount Shasta for a while. Then claim to be the new conduit for Saint Germain's messages. Right. If you also have a few million dollars to pour into their cold. I would bet they would love to have you. I would bet you get to lead them. That's pretty fun. So what info did Saint Germain and other masters share with the ballots? Well, the teachings emphasized ways for individuals to become aware of their IM or God presence which flows from God. The mighty creative fired center of the universe. Ultimately, each person hopes to ascend into the divine realm as the ballots are believed to have done at the end of their lives. Here's the message in their words, all should understand that when one has made his ascension he becomes a wholly perfect being of such beauty radiance that all who contact him realize that he is superior in every way to all other beans, he is no longer subject to any of the limitations of the outer world for he has the full use of the power of precipitation can take his body anywhere, he desires instantly, transcend time and space, and is such an outpouring of light love, and peace that all who contact him know instantly that he is a God being manifesting marvellous perfection in every way where the physical body has read. Blood in the veins at the movement of ascension. It becomes a liquid golden light pouring his radiance through the flesh until the rays of golden light fill the aura. That's pretty fucked sweet become your own immortal. God that is the best religious sales pitch. You can offer your religion offers heaven. Oh, that's cute. We can build our own heaven why enjoy someone else's paradise. When you can just run it. You can customize it you can add more palm trees littlest harp. More titties, less robes, more high heels. Lest sandals be your own. God the reciting of decrease invocations of the divine that call for the manifestation of the invisible in the visible world of desire condition or the removal of an undesirable. One is the primary devotional activity of members of the movement. So basically, these people show up at these temples, and they just fucking listen to messages recorded by the ballots. The I moving also promotes American patriotism the messages received by Ballard suggests that the United States had a special role in the masters world plan and members of the movement. Believed that Ballard was a reincarnation of George Washington is all this making sense. I feel like I'm either not describing it very well or describing it perfectly and it's just insane. As a result of some legal trouble nineteen fifties. The movement lost a few members quite a few members almost out, but as of just a few years ago, there was still apparently more than three hundred chartered IM sanctuaries in the US alone. No, I'm sorry in the US world combined. The most prominent group inspired by the I am movement is the church universal triumphant. They're believed to have between thirty and fifty thousand members. My God there is still an IM temple just a few miles from our Shasta eleven if you wanna visit. I'm not making eleven thirty seven MacLeod f mount Shasta, California and stop by also mount Shasta the town such a weird place. You can also go visit the mount Shasta goddess temple skied, enter center for female mysticism. That's a mouthful you can take a woman's mysteries workshop, you could enroll in the woman shaman priestess training program. If you have the required genitalia. There's also a place in mount Shasta called the dolphin star temple mystery school, I shit. You not this is this. Town sounds the town is only about three thousand people and it has an IM temple. It has skied dancer center for female mysticism. It has the dolphin star temple mystery school and that and that's just the few. I could find quickly on the internet. At the dolphin hippy school, by the way, you can learn universal teachings of the ancient mystery schools of the Maria, Atlantis and Egypt. I wanted to be honest. The more I read about mount Shasta. The more won't have a vacation. There actually have pulled over in that town on a few different road trips. And I remember being like a funky RT little new agey talents and Kukoc shops. I had no idea. How weird it truly was if you don't want to visit a temple you can also stop by the amount Shasta crystal room, where a according to their website, you will find beautiful crystals and minerals from all over the world from the Mirian seed crystals to magical gemstone jewellery, you will find tools for healing and museum quality specimens for your home or workplace. Are you getting a good feel for how fucking crazies places because I'm going to close out this suck with the weirdest? National park mystery of them all at least to me. Let's talk about the Miriam's. I've hit that word a few times. Now Arlen Muren's alive on mount Shasta. There are many Christly types who believe that. Mount Shasta is the home right now of the Mirian's. They believe that the Mirren's are living inside the mountain right now, the Mirren's being the survivors of the sinking of the lost continent of the Maria over twelve thousand years ago, which never happened. People are alive right now. People living in California people who probably own a crystals, and you do who believed that he race of creatures called the myriads are living in a subterranean city called T Laos inside of mount Shasta now who are the Mirren's in a word fake. They're made up. They're not real the notion of the Mirian of the myriad comes from eighteen sixty four we know exactly where it comes from that year zoologist and bio geographer, Philip s- clatter published the mammals of Madagascar he proposed that Madagascar and India had once been part of a larger continent that he called the Maria. This is what he wrote the anomalies of the mammal fauna of Madagascar. Be best explained by supposing that a large continent occupied parts of the Atlantic. And Indian oceans that this continent was broken up into islands of which some have be come amalgamated with Africa some with what is now Asia, and that in Madagascar and the mass islands we have existing relics of this great continent for which I propose the name the Miriam, and he was right about Madagascar. India being part of another con, and it was a supercontinent called Panja after his publication wackadoo deals like Madam Levesque's connected, la- myriad to Atlantis and just made up a new race of people out of thin air, and these people were assigned magical powers and a whole lot of other nonsense believing in Lumiere, Ian is the intellectual equivalent of believing in lizard, people zero evidence zero legitimate academics. Or scientists believe in the shit. Here is the story though of how the marines arrived in mount Shasta taken from very respected incredible. And. Status website called la- Mirian connection dot com. Run by people who totally believe in these creatures prior to the sinking of their content fully aware of the eventual destiny of their beloved constant the ancient Mirian's using their mastery of energy crystals. Sound and vibrations hollowed out a vast underground city with the intention of preserving their culture their treasures and the records of ancient history history that has been lost since the sinking of Atlantis about twenty five thousand marines. We're able to migrate into the interior of mount Shasta the most important of their various administrations centers prior to the sinking of their motherland fucking farm out. She asked his by the way from where this concert continent would have even been like why if they were by like Madagascar, India, why the fuck would one of their administration centers be literally clear across the world in mount Shasta. Anyway, they say they are still here in physical immortal bodies, totally unlimited living ally. Of pure heaven on earth wondrous little people often referred to as the little people of mount Shasta are very often seen visually around the mountain. They are third dimensional beams like humans, but they live on a slightly higher level of the third dimension such as third and one half level, and they will have and they have the ability to make themselves visible and invisible. At will the reason they are not showing themselves physically too, many people is because they have a collective fear of humans at one time when they were as physical as we are and could not make themselves invisible at will humans living at the time viciously maligned them, they became so fearful of humans that they collectively asked the spiritual hierarchy of this planet for the dispensation to be elevated in their frequency what in the fuck people talking about. So that they could make themselves invisible at will in order to be able to continue their evolution unharmed and in peace. All right. Well, there you go. That's why you can't see me is there operating. They're operating on the third and one half level you Jack asses that's probably the level Bigfoot operates on as probably the level that flat earthers operate on. That's why they get it. There is no curve to be seen when you're operating on that level. What a great way to rationalize. Just whatever you want heya. Where's your proof of these la- Mirren's proof? You have you want proof? Good luck with that their operating on the thirty one half level mother fucker they will be seen win. And if they want to be seen, do you not know how dimensions and levels work. You fucking idiot. Gotta wish they really got that angry when you confront them on according to feels good to have a little bit of power back in my voice by him. Not gonna lie. I love it. When I can yell stuff like that. According to the la- Mirian connection website. There are also reports of the big, of course, is big Foot's in this too. There are also reports of the big foot race of people being seen on some remote areas of mount Shasta, along with many other mysterious beans, the big foot people are now very few numbers around the world around mount Shasta, they are of average intelligence and possess a peaceful heart. They have also tamed the dispensation to be able to make themselves invisible at will to be able to avoid confrontation with us and thus like the little people avoid being harmed mutilated and used as a slave race. What the fuck I'm sorry. Why Bigfoot hiding because he doesn't want to be part of the slave race jackass. It's obvious. I people see sasquatch is then they put him in twos. Then they realized there good lifting shit and digging stuff thin there and slaved and building a car home shit. Wake up. What a strange explanation for why we can't find Bigfoot. But enough about sat scores, we'll talk more about the Liberians. There's talking about their city inside mount Shasta where they live deep inside the mountain. Did they live in round houses, and they enjoy unlimited health and wealth. It says these lyrics are allegedly graceful and tall seven feet and up with long flowing if they're seven and up. Why are they called the little people? I guess that's like ironic like when you call a person tiny. They dressed in white robes and sandals. But they've also been seen in very colorful clothing. No, they haven't they are said to have long slender necks and bodies, which they adorned with beautiful decorative, collars, made of beads and precious stones they have evolved, their six cents, which enables them to communicate amongst themselves by extrasensory perception, they can turn invisible or teleport at will and speak the Muren language called solo Solaro Maru. They also speak impeccable English with a slight British accent. I swear to God that's what they wrote that's their actual description this English, but like with a slight British accent the details. Unreal it feels like this mythology was created by somebody who read nothing, but the Lord of the rings and various dungeons and dragons fantasy books while also dropping acid and eating shrooms and smoking the most potent Weeden existence on a daily basis for about a decade. And then we're asked to quit the write down everything they thought to be true about the world. A man named Dr m Dorrell who was not a real doctor formed an offshoot of the I am movement called the brotherhood of the white temple. He claimed that he visited the look the the marines inside their mound in the early nineteen forties. He said he came to a space about two miles in height about twenty miles long, fifty miles wide. He wrote that the light inside the mount was his bright as a summer day because the spended almost in the center of the mountain is a giant sun thing another mid twentieth. Century mistake reported that he fell asleep on mount Shasta. And there was a woke or awakened by the Mirian who let him inside the mountain to a cave, which is paved with gold, then the marine told a man there was a series of tunnels left by volcanoes that were under the earth like freeways a world within a world the la- supposedly have mastered, atomic energy, telepathic clairvoyant, skills electronics and science. They matched all that stuff. At least eighteen thousand years ago. They have technology that makes us service to others. Look like toddlers compared to them they control most of their technology with their minds. They have boats planes spaceships have hopefully this bishops called a silver fleet. They come in and out of the mountain at will go out in the space and do space stuff. And and we don't see him because they have the ability to make their vehicles invisible whenever they feel like and they do that. Because they don't wanna be detected by the military, which makes no sense. Like, I love that. They have all the super advanced technology lay more Vance and hours they can teleport they can turn invisible. At will. They have all these other powers, but they're worried about us. But they're worried about our military get the fuck outta here. If they had a lot of stuff, they can just do whatever they wanted to us a man named JC Brown employed by the Lord cowdray mining company of London England to prospect for precious metals around mount Shasta, he claims to have found the la- Miriam's back in ninety four. Apparently stumbled upon a tunnel which carved downward into the mountain equipment, lanterns and miners paraphernalia. He set out to explore in later wrote three miles from the mouth of the tunnel is struck across a cross section containing gold-bearing or and farther on I struck another cross Anchin. We're an ancient race apparently mind cover he walked roughly eleven miles inside the mound to where he found many rooms and chambers. The rooms are full of various plates all inscribed. Neatly the walls were lined with tempered copper and hung with shields and wall pieces made of gold some of the golden plates. He found were in grade with certain drawings and hieroglyphics rooms opened into other chambers. One of which appeared to have been a place of worship. In addition. There were thirteen statues made of copper and gold and a large sun designed from which protruded golden streamers the way the objects were strewn about he had the feeling the occupants of the underground village had left on the spur of the moment in one chamber. He counted twenty-seven skeletons. The smallest of which was six six the largest stretch. Now more than ten feet two of the bodies were mummified each clad in colorful ornate. Robes Brown spent many days exploring studying the hieroglyphics, and in dot and printing them in his mind. But I bet there was a tunnel. The connected the city to the the Grand Canyon city. And I'm guessing must have brought some food and water must've found some bathrooms, you know, to to explore this for so long. He was so excited about this. Great archeological find he decided to leave the tunnel and his contents. Exactly as he found him a comeback later, but he concealed the entrance to the tunnel. So well, he forgot where it was dead. Nabet Dag nab it. I forgot where the magic tunnel was to the place that doesn't exist and after thirty years he decided that the glory of these marines and the golden artifacts still hanging. Untouched in this cavern must be shared with others in one thousand nine hundred four seventy nine years old he appears in Stockton, California. He organizes a group of people to accompany him to explore mount Shasta legend has it. He got eighty people, including a newspaper editor a museum curator a retired printer. Several scientists other citizens to former group to investigate the tunnel. And apparently they met. Nightly for six weeks to plan, the expedition and also listened to his constant tales of lost continents. Hieroglyphics treasure, blah, blah, blah, and in the morning they were supposed to leave. He's a fucking no-show and they never saw him. Again. Gotta hope that story is true that some looney. Tune making tons of crazy claims gathered people and lured them on for six weeks and the day they're supposed to leave. You just bounces. I was surprised you don't hear about more doomsday cult leaders to in that like tell everybody the day is going to be like April. First two thousand thirty get everyone in the compound have sex with all the hot women for couple years. Make other people do all the work convince everyone that you know, you're God's favorite profits take all their money. And then I'm like March thirty first you just bounce leave a little note behind the says, April Fools, motherfuckers made it all up. There's no spaceship nonsense. Best luck some cult member. Damn it may make I'm good. He he's so good trick me into giving me my giving him my wife for a couple of years trick me into castrated myself and giving him money. The April Fools king. Come it's. Okay. So that's it that is it for today's mysteries. Weird tales. Right. Who knew there was so much going on our national parks, and I know many of you wrote in suggesting like other mysteries this mystery or that their way too many for one suck that is why the travel channel did an eight part series on on the subject back in two thousand fifteen a series. I haven't watched by the way. So I don't know how much overlap there is I'm sure they left out a lot of stories as well. I hope you enjoyed the ones I chose to vote. I'm just amazed by what people choose to believe. And there was a lot of like legitimately interesting just mysteries. So let's go over some quick highlights. Learn a wee bit more with today's top five takeaways. Takeaway. Number one on March. I eighteen seventy two then president Ulysses s grant signed the Yellowstone National Park Protection Act establishing Yellowstone park as America's first federally protected land number to the United States national park system encompasses a total of four hundred eighteen different. Scientists span across eighty four million acres the US national park system in total is over ten million acres bigger than all of Italy. Number three. There is not a lost city hidden in the Grand Canyon. David doesn't know what he's talking about. The whole story was a hoax likely told to sell more newspapers in one thousand nine number four. It is very likely that the legend of the crypto zoological creature. Shuba copra can't be traced directly back to one woman watching the movie species in Puerto Rico in nineteen ninety-five. I love that so much. I wish that the legend of Bigfoot could be traced back to somebody watching Harry and Henderson's. Five new info. I'm always intrigued by tales that people who vanished without a trace with no evidence left behind it. So spooky nobody giant search party forms. They find absolutely nothing. Always makes me wonder about you, and like wormholes other dimensions. We could possibly slip into. They haven't been proven to exist. Yet, we covered several disappearances like that today. They happen in all kinds of parks like the great smoky mountains national park this park sits along the Tennessee North Carolina border covers over one hundred eighty seven thousand acres of land. And that's what he's been home to so many disappearances over the years like the case of Dennis Martin in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine at that time Dennis a six year old boy and his family on a hiking trip in the smoky mountains Dennis and his three brothers designed to jump out at their parents when they walk past the three brothers. You know, the the race up ahead or the four brothers, actually. Sorry. The race up ahead three go one way. Dennis goes in another direction because he has a bright red top, which is gonna make you more likely to be saying he wants to hide a little better. When the time comes for everybody to jump dentists. Three brothers jump out. Dennis does not they assume that he just missed his cue. They called his name. They're waiting for him to come out. Nothing. His family looks for Dennis for hours to can't find a trace of him. They be such a nightmare. They call for search and rescue unit and a search party is formed. They look for Dennis for weeks fourteen hundred searchers comb, a fifty six square mile area. They find a few people who reported seeing a small boy wanted to woods others reported a very small items of clothing, but Dennis himself. No real trace of him as ever found many think he was kidnapped or dragged off by some animal, but it's all speculation. He vanished without a trace to this day. No one knows exactly what happened to Dennis. And he just one of many people to disappear forever. Inside of our national parks. Just more national park mysteries. Takeaway. All right. So that is that is it national park. Mysteries has been sucked. Hail nimrod. May he protect the rest of us from invisible in various forces. Maybe la- Mirren's are taken people. I don't know. Thank you the time. So team thank you to Queen of the suck. Lindsey Cummins high priestesses Cellcom Revilla camp. Jesse guardian of grammar donor, Reverend Dr Joe mother, fuck and paisley time suck high priest Alex Dugan. The guys have been elixir danger brain and access apparel next week. We're going back to a Colt haven't done that in a bit touched on a coal today. Digging deep run a Colt next week the order of the Solar Temple on October fourth and fifth nine seventy four fifty three members of the Solar Temple in Canada. And Switzerland were murdered or committed suicide the buildings in which they died were set on fire a year later, another sixteen members killed themselves and five more died in similar ways in March of nineteen Ninety-seven. This cult was based in Switzerland, and they saw themselves as following the teachings of the knights Templar longtime, suckers know, all about the knights Templar the followers of cult leader Joseph dimambro, we're brainwashed to believe that he was a member of the fourteenth century Christian order of the knights. In a previous life, and that his daughter Emmanuel was the cosmic child, and they would be led to planet which orbits the star. Sirius after this are you in. I hope you're in because it sounds fucking insane. I love a suck. There is no limit to what some people can be convinced to believe we learned that today again time now to hear from you to hear from very own Colt. Members the cult curious with today's time sucker updates. Times updates. I up date is a fun story in a shoutout requests coming in from Adrian riddle. Sorry, I can't get to all the shadow request. By the way, we get quite a few. And we're very grateful that we do sometimes the one that gets running the show. It's just the one that happens to come in. When I'm putting the updates together and curate knit. It's never personal. If you do not get in Adrian writes, dear master sucker. First of all. Thank you for. All you do with time suck podcast and your stand up comedy your legend, sir. I'm writing today to tell you a little bit about my incredible husband, Keith he introduced me to time suck a couple of months ago, when I was hooked instantly Keith, and I are both recovering addicts who met at the lowest point in both of our lives. We were at rehab both freshly out of toxic relationships. Both have no idea how we were going to move forward their lives. Everyone told us our relationship would never work. We were just the same old run of the mill rehab romance. And it was probably best that we go our separate ways as soon as we get out or got out. But we didn't we stayed together. We went to meetings together and figured out how to have a healthy life together. Fast forward six years, and we now have to be. Beautiful daughters together, and he is all but officially adopted my older daughter as his own all that. I love your nets beautiful. Our careers are thriving, and we are closing on our first house in a few short weeks keys work so hard to be the best ad. He can't to our little little girls. He loves them in me with everything he has he gets up and goes to work at five AM. So he can be often time to get them all from school and daycare. He's at every dance recital choir concert event cheer every event cheering them on with stars in his eyes. I love him. He's a beautiful meat sack. And I couldn't ask for a better partner to go through life with his birthday was last week. And I surprised him with tickets to your stand up show in Dallas where from Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we can't wait to come. See you live. Thanks again for all you do. We are constantly making time so jokes at each other with his big deal, and your podcast is brought us even closer than we already were. If you could could you please give him a shout-out from me. I would be so happy looking forward to seeing you in Dallas hail Nimrod agent will. We'll hail Nimrod agent, man. See when sweet case, okay. I'll give you shutout sweet Kaethe, your sweet low Mexi meets Accu. Yeah. I'm looking forward to senior in Dallas. Love your story. Love the defied. The odds a love and underdog store, you know, I love it underdogs tour. Good on YouTube for being kick ass meet sack. Parents world needs more that world can never get enough of that good on you. Both got a lot of messages regarding the pedophile island suck. You know? We still getting still getting a lot of those. I mean, it just speaks to how how big the problem of sexual abuse really is and it's not just mannequins child. Sometimes, you know, women are the perpetrators that. Sometimes he's lost in the talk about pedophilia. And so in regards to that I'm reading this message made sent in by an anonymous sucker who writes, dearest master sucker. I have never ever fucking once told anyone about this. If you do happen to read this, please keep me anonymous done, I am an adult male. And when I was six I was molested by two of my female babysitters. I had no clue how to react. I still don't really know how to feel. It was so hard to keep. It from my family who still don't know until my mom that I didn't want them to babysit me anymore. I made up lies. My mother could tell that I was a little uncomfortable and never hired them. Again. I couldn't tell friends ever you try to tell any young boy that you had to naked seventeen year old girls on top of you, and touch and you like you've never been touched before. It sounds like every boy's dream. But not at six not when I just wanted to fuck plane intendo, I haven't seen either of them in well over a decade, and that's cool. There are still times where my best living thing in the world wife says something that they said during the act and it still gets to me almost an immediate soft. Shame. Cock. I tell her I have ups, but I cannot bring it to myself to tell her it hurts to think about but listening to everybody right to you about their instances is finally giving me the courage to tell someone or thousands. Ha ha a love you guys. And all that you do you make us laugh you teach us and so much more hoping. No that fuck that. I know you do I know the telling his story these days doesn't do much about them doing it in the first place. But it does bring. Little bit of relief to me to type these words for the first time HALE Nimrod praised bojangles and triple m and praise loose, Nusa FINA. She would have a field day with those two pieces of shit. Sorry. If I rambled what you didn't ramble nothing. New apologize about Lucifer would have a field day with those two pieces shit because she loves sexuality healthy sexuality hate those who file which would always be such a beautiful and pleasurable act. And I hope you are able to tell your wife someday. I really do. I bet she would understand. I bet telling her would be weight off your chest. You're not a missed. But you know, you know, that I've met you. And and I don't think someone is amazing as you would marry someone who is also amazing. So thanks for sharing that I hope you feel a little better never ever feel at fault you or anybody else listening when you're the victim of sexual abuse. Not ever. It's the shame should never be felt by anyone other than the abuser. You are kid. You did fuck an absolutely nothing wrong. Okay. Apparently, I got time sucker Kyle clear. Thank you for through pronunciation guide. You. I would have fucking called you Pru hair. With the case, Casey, Anthony lie. So glad my voice is backed by the way, when everything that Casey Anthony thing kind of rights or sorry added Cuyler because my son Kyle rights longtime Cuyler first time listener, you Astle. I pride myself on outsmarting your made up ranson the show. I even wrote an earlier claiming how I figured out you're making a sponsor, even before you get to the sponsor, but you son of a bitch. You got me when you said Casey mother of the year. Anthony was running a daycare ice cream. I screamed out loud to nobody. Are you fucking kidding me? And I got so mad that almost through my phone at the window. Followed immediately by me, also yelling at no one in particular. You son of a bitch. When you corrected yourself. You're done cap wearing spaces or Kyle earlier, a love Akal and no done can't few. No one is more gullible than I am. I would I would fall for every single one of my life. If I wasn't the one telling him, I I'm ridiculously gullible Hillman. Rod do and now a funny message sent in from time sucker Kelly Daniels. Kelly says I fucking love you until I stumbled upon your podcast, which I listen to religiously. I wanted to jab myself in the eye with a pen on the other hand, you're unhealthy admiration with Michael motherfucker McDonald is concerning. Why why are you so obsessed with him? Becky, it's weird. It is weird. Which is why obsessive him a forgetting he has a best force in to re. Okay. Forgetting that he sings it has marbles in his mouth, and she says in fuck the haters who get mad when you mispronounced words names. I love it because it makes me feel superior to your dumb ass gave on sucking Kelly. Kelly. I'm glad you feel superior. I really am. It's good to be humble and accept your shortcomings instead of you know, being embarrassed. Yeah. I don't speak very well. Which is super ironic considering what I do. And I feel like I I hope it's inspirational honestly, I feel like if I can make a living as a comic in podcast when I barely speak one language, then all of you meet sacks should be able to kick ass doing whatever you do do whenever you're passionate about love you guys. And last last update, I believe I'm making sure it is the last one. Yes. Last update regarding Casey Anthony coming in from sucker Michaela Perkins. Mckenna writes, dear Reverend Dr masters, suck master hail Nimrod. I love your podcast, first and foremost loved so much. I got my husband into it. Now, we suck on these wonderful delicious times that kept us together. I have some quick updates. I'll let you share with you. I just listened to your Casey Anthony suck and thought you would find this interesting. Apparently, she is advocating for those who are wrongfully convicted at her first case Scott Peterson. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I read about that. If that's now fucked up, I don't know it is. Another sucked another sucker update. I half us about the Unabomber. I'm curly. Listen to a podcast called monster and season two is all about zodiac killer. I heard on a podcast that there is a group of amateur sleuths who've dedicated their lives into finding out who the real zodiac killer is on this podcast. They interviewed several of these people in many of them think that the Unabomber was indeed the zodiac killer. Good old. Ted Kaczynski the finest. I thought you would find his interesting and wanted to hear your thoughts. Wilma kill. I did look into the Unabomber zodiac killer connection. And while it's interesting. It's highly unlikely Kozinski did live in the bay area from nineteen sixty seven to nine hundred sixty nine or you know, he lived for a little while in that period in the same period that Zodiac's confirmed killers killings occurred because Inskeep did oncein a high school yearbook with a symbol similar to the zodiacs. However witness descriptions of Ponti zodiac like a little thicker zodiac do not match the very lanky at the time because Inskeep also bloody print from one of Zodiac's from one of the zodiac slain scenes that was recovered does not match Ted Kaczynski's prince and wants Ted became the Unabomber. None of his writings matched these writings in any way. Very very highly unlikely for a sudden personality in handwriting shift. And obviously his MO of bombing was different than the zodiac. As for the Casey Anthony Scott Peterson connection. She also talked about how she feels similar to OJ Simpson. I don't know if you saw that she feels you know, she's she's one of these wrongly accused Scott Peterson OJ Simpson, blah, blah, blah. Of course, she's attracted to these cases. She's a manipulator who who wants to sell people around her on stories that make her look better and being falsely accused is the story that makes her look the best right now, she loves to play the victim truly disgust me. And then Michaela finishes with again love the podcast. My husband, and I are hoping and waiting for you to come to Boise to get a chance to meet you. We are fellow Idahoans like you and love this wonderful beautiful state. Take care of that voice. Ped- bojangles on the head. Give the Queen of the sucks and pretty flowers is nice and him run your spaces are Michaela Perkins. Thank you. I would love to get to Boise. I'm out I'm gonna try hopefully this next year. I do think it's crazy. I don't I don't play the biggest city in my own state. But for whatever reason is just never worked out. Never Mabel to find the right? Kind of. You there hope that that changes in two thousand twenty keep spreading the suck. And it will I go generally where the analytic say I have the most fans, and I would love to see those tick up in Boise and and get down to a show. This is where my sister lives, it'd be great. And thank you for the updates everybody. Thanks time. Suck this nine. We all did. Thanks again. Everyone for listening and supporting time suck love you. Meet sacks. Please don't disappear in a national park or anywhere else. This week. I don't wanna lose listeners and also keep away from the Mirren's. I don't trust anybody who can teleport intern, visible and most importantly, keep on smoking. Ready to move to. Really quick. Oh, yeah. Okay. Tell the now. Yeah. Think about it.
Timesuck with Dan Cummins
Aired 4 d ago 59:37
This podcast contains adult content in language. The call before this force cheap poultry. Yes. Thank you. Most difficult decision. A defendant in a criminal case faces is whether or not to testify in one's own defense is a decision fraught with potentially disastrous pitfalls. Defendant is not required to testify. And the judge tells every jury in every case the not testifying should not be considered any kind of an admission of guilt. But it is still a dilemma the natural. Instinct is to explain yourself to save face to face the jurors, I didn't do this. But in choosing to do. So a defendant opens themselves up to the prosecution and anything can happen old convictions prior bad acts all that stuff can be dragged out of the shadows. And you can be confronted with it by taking the stand the defendant also submits their demeanor and character the way they talk all aspects of their personality to the jury for inspection and consideration. The opposite tack is to remain mute and unreadable at the defense table, and that has risks of its own. It doesn't matter that the rule of law is that you don't have to testify and that it is not sign of guilt. If you choose not to. People still want to hear the accused say they are innocent and anything short of that can breed suspicion. You know, why doesn't he take the stand speak in his own defense questions like that? I don't know when it was decided appear remain elected to take the stand in this case and testify. I would say the chips were down for the defense at that point defense. Attorney McKesson had not been able to get his third party culpability case in front of the jury. The defense really needed to change things up in aided to get things going in a positive way, and it fell to peer and do it himself. This is chapter eight and it's time to hear from the accused, I'm Michael Conley. And this is murder. I always had my feelings about where defense might join this case. But I never suspected that. Call. And giving latest. Thanks, the stamps dot com. Give a special offer that includes a four week trial plus free posted in the digital scale. Go to stamps dot com. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in murder book hall, one word murder. Book is brought to you today by Grand Central publishing and the scorching new thriller from Harlan Coburn run away. This is the point in the trial that if it were Coker game one player would push all his chips into the center of the table and say I'm all in and he would win or lose on that hand in this case that player was Piero main. He was going all in by testifying into further put into perspective the gravity of this decision and the risks involved. I went to see my own criminal defense attorney. And that doesn't mean I need a criminal defense attorney because I've committed crimes I need a criminal defense attorney to write my books, and in this case, it's Dan Dailey who has helped me write all the Mickey Haller Lincoln lawyer books. He doesn't look much like Matthew, mcconaughey. Hey who played the role in the movie, but he's got a great legal mind. And in most of the writing I do when it cuts across the legal system. I always go to Dan, whereas partner Roger mills for advice. So I went to see Dan this time and talk to him about this case. Hey, Dan, I'm doing a podcast on this case. I know you have nothing to do with the case, but I respect your legal mind, helping right more than a few books. So let me start by asking you. What is the strategy, or what are the circumstances where you went allow your client to testify or not testify when your client is the accused? Well, let's be real clear about this though right to testify is solely the clients. The client assaults whether he will testify or not testify in the lawyer can use all his influence to help make that decision. But ultimately while a defendant gets on the witness stand is solely the defendant's decision and very often. In a lot. Of course, the job will engage in a dial with the defendant to make sure that the defendant has made a decision knowingly and voluntarily after advice counsel, whether tesa witnessed or does of tech the witness stand. What? The decision to go to trial or plead. The decision to testify is the defendant's. Will you mentioned that the attorney can use all skills to influence or hopefully push him in right direction. And even in cases, where judge will say, you sure, you want to do this to to the accuse that point that is pretty risky. So what are the what what makes us a risky what's at risk here? Well, ultimately wanna defendant gets on the witness stand? His testimony will be judged by the juror. Just like any other windows. He will be subject to cross examination. He has an opportunity to sit in almost were hearse his direct testimony with his own lawyer, but anything can happen on cross examination. And unlike other witnesses in the case. If a defendant laws that. Fact alone can be used by the jury as evidence of gift. So there is a penalty. Associated with testify as a defendant, you can give evidence of your own Gill. If the jury just doesn't believe you. Okay. Why also I know this is neither case. So I'm not trying to get you to intrude into some of the lawyers case. But this the it's an interesting case to Mealey's than that this the accused now in his fifties has had a lighted included admitted gang membership. But he's also been a military police officer and up into the point of his arrests have been a police officer on a military base for I think seven or eight years. So in other words, he this is cops is that that raises stock is somebody who could handle himself when to stand. Well that always exists except that now that you're talking about a log force officer. They go to classes to learn testify that's part of their job get on the witness stand and tell the jury what their cases against the defendant. So you have a person trained test testify in this, particular instance, of the defense lawyer would probably feel that he is a leg up. He has a better witness than he ordinarily would have had. Warrior prefers to keep us client off the witness stand. Because he wants to focus the jury's attention. On. Whether the government or state has proven its case beyond to the exclusion of a reasonable doubt. The only time you want to put your client on the witness stand is if your client has soap, saying, add not go back and forth. The government says she did. Well, it didn't. But if he has a fact unique to himself, the only he can testify to that puts in controversy, something that the government or state has lodged then you have to put client on the witness day. Relevant to this case that would be. All those tapes. And how did hear DNA get there? Those are two issues that if they're not addressed. The maybe the defendant has testimony to place those things and issue. So finally, it was time for what I would consider the main event Pierro main on the stand under oath telling his side of things it seemed like everything about this case have been heading towards this point. There were some people including Jade Clark's mother, you'll Onda sitting in the front row of the courtroom every day of the trial who had been waiting thirty years to hear what he had to say about the early hours of June twenty nine nineteen eighty seven. I'm myself had only heard Pierre remains voice on wiretap recordings. So I was really interested in see how he handled himself and how he's going to speak to the charges against him. Testimony before this. Let me say something here about a recording of the trial. It was a challenge. The courthouse was built almost fifty years ago. It is old to courtrooms are big and cavernous a lot of marble and a lot of wood. There's ambient noise everywhere and any noise whisper, cough or shuffle of papers picked up and bounce around the room. Added to that. I think the sound system was probably knew when the place was built in nineteen seventy-two. So most of the people who took the witness stand. We're not accustomed to speaking into a microphone so there is often reverb or a sound drop off depending on whether the witness was too close or far away from the microphone. I should also mention that in granting us access to record the trial. Just fiddler as-as not to be too obvious or intrusive. He did not want our presence to affect the proceedings. So we recorded under these conditions, and then we attempted to enhance the sound as best as we could. If you want to hear the original unenhanced recordings than they are available on the website murder book, podcast dot com. Now, let's get back to the case. Awful. Are. On a oh ph. Esi? More. Are. In. At tech Shen. Awesome for Los Angeles. How? To unite place. Nineteen. Sixth grade. In the. School. Elementary school pay forty. On. Upgrade whose Greg attended all across the school. The nature graders. Two days senior high school, okay? Watch. What is? Let time. Was the neighborhood? The young your age. The. Ehlers? Rose. Hi, rose. What? Jewelry. Is. Chechens? How would you? Pressure on you as in June rose attention. Christians. Fool. Some of the also. General response after pressure was put out. This is so. Prussian? Early on drives. Skid. School. Warm. You were people harassed by members. Job. The man on the witness stand in the neatly press suit and speaking in a calm and clear voice sounded nothing like the man on the wiretap recordings from two thousand and three for that matter the man described as a cold blooded killer. The one who spoke about taking care of business up close and personal. I was taken aback, and I think the joy may have been as well. It was almost like romaine was two different people Kesse walked him through his early life the private schools, he attended before graduating from high school and joining the air force and his subsequent assignment as a military. Police officer. Onto mice. Rose. As you've already heard we'll continue to hear throughout this trial. There's a lot of discussion and questioning and testimony about whether romaine was a gang member. And when he was a gang member, and how long he was a gang member, and seemingly every possible permutation of gang affiliation. And the whole time. I'm wondering why why does it matter isn't the point of the trial to determine if remain fired the shots kill j Clarke back in nineteen eighty seven. What does it matter? Whether he was again member at the time of the shooting or anytime after I ask detective Rick jets, and what was so important about establishing Pierre remains history as a gang member. Okay. One thing that I think it'd be explained to me if not our listeners is there's so much going on in this trial about whether romaine was a gang member or not on the night that Jade Clarke was murdered. And I don't get it. I mean, why is it so important to prove he? A gang member has nothing to do with the charges. He's charged at first reading worder with the use of a firearm, and that would be the same. Whether he's a gang member or use a priest. So why is there so much expanded by the prosecution on proving gang member? Why is it the defense attorney McKesson in his opening arguments that yelling, it's not a gang case. This is not a gang crime. What's what's the deal there? I would say two things first of all it goes to motive gang members. Do carjackings matter of fact, when I was a young officer, probably even a young detective, there was even a criminal penal code section for carjacking was just part of being a robbery to eleven P C eventually they came so prevalent, especially because of gang members that were doing these type of things in the city that in California specific penal code section was added specifically for carjacking. So it goes to. Mode of gang members, did these type of things priest use it on have a great desire to steal a car at gunpoint to to get a ride. So this is a gang member kind of symbolic type of thing. And secondly. This trial was going to be from a defense standpoint painting is positive picture of romaine as this possibly troubled youth a little bit that totally turned his life. Ran and became a police officer and was going to really focus on the positives of what he had done with his life post, killing Jade Clarke. So if they're going to put that out there, you can't just accept it without painting other side of the picture that it's his long history of being a pretty notorious gang member that was involved in violent crime. And actually what we found out that he was still playing that role in his moments when he least expected to have anybody listening to them, you know, he was talking to a fellow gang member or fellow gang members on the phone and talking the talk and. Acting the act of being still a gang member all the while posing by day as a, you know, a successful police officer. So the prosecutor MCI off was trying to balance the books in anticipation of the defense putting on this. Glowing portrait like how could just got me a murder when he's been a police officer, and he's made cases and so forth. Right. And that was the that was the the great take from those wiretaps was what we heard on those wiretaps is the way he talked that the subject matter of the drive bys vs walkup shootings and taking care of business. I mean, this is powerful stuff and it's going on. Why he allegedly wonderful police officer had glowing reviews by his supervisor. So you act one way maybe in public and when other. People are around. But this was probably the greatest test of what kind of character. This guy really was because these like, I think you mentioned unguarded moments when he's on the phone to a friend and talking the way he talked about the things he talked about. So you don't want to allow them the put on Dr Jekyll if you don't get to show, Mr Hyde. Correct. Just sitting here. I just realized that I think I'm drawn to this case, it must have been a subconscious thing I'm drawn to this case because I can trace back my own ultimate desire to be a writer of crime fiction to a carjacking involving shooting. When I when I was sixteen years old. I was in my car late at night. And I saw a guy running and I saw him hide a gun. And I was so curious about it. I after he ran away. I I pulled over and went to this hedge where I'd seen him hide something and I pulled out. This gun and pretty soon a lot of police cars descended in the area. And I told them what I saw and so forth, and it turned out that a little bit up the street a couple of blocks up the street. They're just been at carjacking and also back then the carjacking was not a term. It was an attempted robbery of some man in a car and he too was shot in the driver's seat. And I spent a night with detectives and police station. I did a description of the guy I saw and so forth, and I got really fascinated with detectives after that. And I started read I I started reading a newspaper to see if they ever caught the guy. I I know the guy was a victim was alive on that night. And then I have watching the paper to see if he passed away or anything like that. And they never caught the guy's never called into being a trial or anything like that. But that fascination with detective let me to reading detective novels and then eventually led. Me to wanting to write detective novels, and now here I am talking about a a case in Los Angeles about a carjacking gone bad. And you know, I guess I should have seen that the that two things adding up, but I it just occurred to me that this is why fascinated with this case. So back to the mode of in the Pierre romaine trial while it is not required that the prosecution prove motivation in order for joy to convict in. Nonetheless is vital to provide the joy of all aspects of a case to Mana case here that says this man killed this other man, but we don't know why that is a really risky move. It's all about reasonable doubt in trial. And if you can't provide the motive for Klein, then that leaves a hole in the case that could easily be filled with doubt. So establishing romaine is a gang member goes to motive again is a criminal enterprise its members commit crimes, including carjacking and murder. So if you can establish the romaine was gang member when this crime occurred, then you're stabbing mode of the flip side to this is the defense if they can prove or even suggests that remain was not a gang member on the night of the murder, the new undercut the motive in this case. So this is why there was so much focus placed doing this trial in Romains gang history. And so much dispute about it. Now, let's get back to the testimony upon being discharged from the air. Force. Pierro remain returned home got a job at a car washes, head of security and applies. Both LAPD in LA county sheriff's department for a job he said, he. Wanted to be a law enforcement officer. He had taken the LAPD's written tests and physical exam and was waiting to be called in for an interview on the Nightshade Clark was shot with all these preliminaries out of the way McKesson got down to attacking the evidence against his client. I where the scar on pier remains right forearm scars from the wounds left in the summer of nineteen eighty seven. Jewish see those injuries as a result of. No sorry. Kill anybody. Is you see the injuries as a result of action? Recall when you see of is. Does your. Are Z's in these are just far his birthday June. Twenty four was probably twenty seven hundred twenty. Where were you see? Where were you all the certain stances around? You have you received? Is. Insurance. Rally. How those injuries a few days before on earth under a drug. Sustains? What happened? Sees me through stricken. Juries disregard it remained under wrecking. You listen to the questions directly that nobody's gonna take a recess ten or fifteen minutes. John keep in mind. Just like in the courtroom. We're going to take a recess year. We'll be back after these words from our sponsor from number one bestselling author Harlan Cogan runaway is a masterpiece of domestic suspense. You've lost your daughter. She's a dicta- to drugs into an abusive boyfriend, and she's made it clear that she doesn't want to be found by chance you see her in central park. But she's not the girl you remember. This woman is living on the edge frightened. And clearly in trouble. You don't stop to think beggar to come home? She runs and you're pulled into a dark dangerous world, you never knew existed. Sometimes it's the people closest to you keep the darkest secrets and runaway dares to ask. How far would you go to save someone you love with over seventy million books in print worldwide Harlan Coburn is the perennial number one New York Times bestselling author of thirty novels. He's also creator and executive producer for several television shows. Including the Netflix drama safe. Visit Grand Central publishing dot com for more information. So before we go back to the case, I just went to announce something we're working on for at least one of the upcoming episodes. And I could use your help a lot of you have been sending in questions and comments about the investigation the trial. So we meaning myself in our police consultants are going to put together a roundtable discussion at the end of the season. Where will read your questions on the podcasts and answer as many as we can? So if you have questions you want to ask us where you have any theories share, please E mail them to podcast, Michael Conley dot com. Okay. Now back to the trial. All right back on the record now. And Pierre romaine is about to tell a story nobody involved in this case had heard in the previous thirty years. -cation Kerber from. Now. Recei? Your objection. You're saying it's relevant. Section has before. Describe that. But not the words. Which is. Patient. Four. Visible. Yes. What you do for onerous? As the Jackson off occasion itself in injuries from it. Testify to the word soak the research of the art not conducive. Approximate? What is all the? From time. House. Say did you speak Andre four young. UC four hit other who fall first person. He's. Were you of set will you vote on? Respond to you or this all. Vacation. On what he responded that. It seemed like others. How long you guys respond? Law have set for the physical Cajun. How long? Jimmy, what happened in visible? Well, refining, bro. On. While we fight. Blocks. How are you? In. Believe you. How? Regarding. Hey savage. We. Goes. Mckesson Incapital means explanation for the wounds on his arms by having his client stand and demonstrate to the jury how he as a former military police officer nineteen eighty seven would point a weapon romaine adopted the standard combat pose feet spread to shoulder with slight crouch, both hands holding extending the weapon, his arms and shoulders forming a triangle. Approach this year. Call. In the. Addiction. One objection sustained for the same reason. If you run your. How objection? Roster. Basically straight taking it off. It's going to hand combat repor. It was clear that McKesson was trying to show the joy that remains two handed grip created a shelter for the inside of his right forearm making shot that left. The through and free wounds on his inside forearm impossible to me. It was kind of a weird demonstration doing the prosecution. We had heard from witnesses who said there was a tug award that the Salen was trying to pull j Clarke out of the car with one hand. So just seemed to think that whoever had fatally shot j Clarke had done it from a combat stance. But the demonstration was allowed and the jury saw, but it almost seemed to me like the defense was going down a checklist. DNA check. We have an explanation wounds to the arm check. We have an explanation now, what about gang affiliation is so far denied that. He was in a gang all through his high school years and then through four years in the air force, but the LAPD had him solidly and again and had photographic and wiretap evidence seems to support. Got it pretty overwhelmingly remember this. Will operate like the get up call from the? So have you deny your him again after that? Well, I guess the answer is you don't. Some point be new become an active member of a rodent sixties. Yes, sir. And when did you first come active? Rolling sixty. In the county jail timber nineteen. You told you arrays in the area with Roland sixties? Claims correct. Now. How were you able to navigate not being gay? Little. Street program. I wasn't. St. wasn't about travel route. Watches. She she where we work, basically. Hi suit. You know, members of roads. Yes. Were you? Active member of the role of trips. I was even sell. How were you able to come back to the NATO leave schooling ones? So leave student watch you go back home at the end of the day. Correct. And how you navigated where you weren't. Getting back to the. Can contact. Travels. Anybody tells the distance worth resigned when ties? Several buses count vision. All the time. You want to June? Rolling sixties. Not at all. Newer guy who? Shear forces an MP. Has an application in Los Angeles. Police. And you become a rolling sixties? How that? When I was arrested in. County jail. Societas tach basically to wind Dixon who was around sixty. At that time. I was placed into the gang Haji along with him. Now, let me ask you something. If there difference in living in a gang neighborhood as young African American male as opposed to being placed in a gang much. Nation. Testified of that. So he wasn't custody. Vast? Wall Street line being in a gang. Free in that environment. In the game in Los Angeles County jail at that time. Extremely hard. Phil do. Explain to me. So I understand why is it difficult. You house in a month? Not to be. To rise assaults is a city. We've been city. Culture surrounded by. Gangs. Inundated. Gay rights. Tell me how. Variety curves. You are in your house in game March. What are the? Whatever altercations. That are currently. Defense for a long members six. Let's say you're house. Let's say you're housed in the game on the road and six. All the fresh. -sition has basically. She. Jefferson's time. What was your understand? What would have? While you were out. Roland sixties. My. If beak broke out to roller sixties another game you fail to participate. What leaner too? Would be. Inherently danjus to your insistence barring. It was either too. Go along with being involved in the. People were always people get so fired. Does you people? When long? Could you have? Say just sat in this. Rolling sixty script module. You. Radio bible yet say. Involve is Margot to get out of here. Jackson, formative and the tax. Did you? I. Rested on twenty eight. I was really. Thank you. And when we re. Part of August nineteen. More than release it. December nineteen. Cases. Stricken. Is regarded remain. Again. Nation right now. At this point in Romains testimony. I was drawn into thinking about the larger picture about society. If his story was true. Then this case was about more than a murder who is about what we have wrought in our cities you have this kid. His father leaves at age five mother works put him and his two brothers through private school. So maybe they have a shot at being insulated from the gangs that infest the neighborhood. I mean, he's not even allowed to go out and play in his own neighborhood for fear of the pressure to join the gang then right after school. He joins the air force. And for four years. He's away from all this posting in places like Montana and Texas in Guam seen some of the world outside of south central LA. Then he comes back applies to the LAPD guess a fulltime job while waiting to hear and then ends up being arrested by the LAPD from murder. He's putting the crypts module at the county jail because guy he's arrested with is a bona fide crypt. And then according to him. He's got no choice Joyner be set on fire Joyner be raped assaulted or worse. Join or die. That was how romaine told it, and if it was all true or perceived by the jury members as true, the maybe he would draw under sympathy or maybe they would see it as a cynical attempt to play on their sympathies. And they would reject it. I remember when I was a newspaper reporter going to some of these neighborhoods in south central L A, and this would have been in the late eighties. Just around the time. The j Clarke murder projects like Jordan downs Nickerson gardens drugs and murder were rampant. The graffiti was everywhere there were the drive through drug alleys where they use little kids as look outs. The guys hanging out staring down the cards as crews pie. It really scared me to have to go down there. And most of the time I wouldn't go unless I had a toggle for with me where I was there because of a police action. I remember being down there on the projects on a story once a cop or somebody told me about this old lady who is standing up to the gangs shooing them away when the. Drug dealers would hide their stuff in the bushes outside her door. She would turn the hose on them do stuff like that. I was thinking about writing a story about her as an example of somebody fighting the good fight, and I remember knocking under screen door. She had no air conditioning. It was like ninety degrees out. It was the security door steel bars. Backed by the screening she spoke to me through the door. And I could barely see her face. I guess I was just not you've back. Then she told me if I did a story on her major look like some kind of neighborhood hero. It would probably get killed. So she ended up shooting me away like she shoot away the drug dealers when I got back to my car there was this crippling on the driver's door. I mean, he was wearing blue. So I assumed he was a crypt. It wasn't like I was going to ask him. What is -ffiliated were? Anyway, he charged me a five dollar tariff to get into my car. I paid it got to hell out of their tail between my legs. But I thought about that remembered that when Pierre romaine was testifying about the gang members when he was a little kid stealing his lunch money kind of felt the same way. I think. Anyway, I just can't imagine what it was like growing up in that situation and trying to stay clear. I know the are choices. There are always choices and many many of the kids in situations. Similar to remains do not fall into the gang life. So I'm not giving him a pass. I'm just saying I think his testimony was pretty effective in explaining his gang history. Whether the wire task presented earlier by the prosecution counterbalanced overrode is explanation was a question for the joy to the side. And speaking of those wiretaps which were recorded supposedly years after Romain testified he had left the gang. This is how the defense handled it romaine testified. He was simply talking the way people. He was talking to spoke speaking their language to get along. Each of the conversation. We were receiving streamlines urban the next to us why you were using. No. Wjr news. We'll get back to remains testimony. After these words from our sponsor. As someone who lives in LA is not always easy for me to get to the post office. There's traffic parking. It's a real hassle, but stamps dot com makes the mailing process. Simple and easy. You can eliminate trips to the post office and save money with this counts that you don't get at the post office stamps com brings all the amazing services of the US postal service right to your computer. Whether you're a small office, sending invoices online sour shipping out products were a warehouse, sending thousands of packages a day stamps dot com can handle it all with these use your computer to print official US postage twenty four seven for any letter any package any class of male anywhere. You want to send once your mail is ready just handed to your mail carrier or drop it in the mailbox with stamps. Calm. You get five cents off every first class stamp and up to forty percent off priority mail, not to mention it's a fraction of the cost of those expensive postage meters. Give. Special offer when you go to stamps com, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage type in murder book. All one word you can get a four week trial, plus free postage and digital scale without any long term commitment that stamps dot com. Enter murder book. And now back to the trial. Pierre romaine concluded his direct testimony by claiming under questioning by McKesson that he had left the rowing sixties Crips gang in nineteen ninety four when he decided to start walking straight line in his life. He said he moved from Los Angeles to the town of reality show in San Bernardino county. It was now the prosecution's turn to ask questions. Antennas MCI off was not going to be as sympathetic and understanding his Romains attorney had been. Mci I drilled down on the ice pick story attempting to elicit the details of this opposed attacked by Andre Romain. Pierre remain seemed unable to remember much of the assault other than that it was an eight inch ice pick. And that he was stabbed with it while he was standing and fighting his brother. Down for it. Your room for the ladies and gentlemen, Jerry, tell us the I go in from the Orissa disciples to Europe. When I. Why did I was fighting? The Kyle foster took a sharp aim. When remains claimed that he quit the gang life in nineteen ninety four to pursue a career in law enforcement. He had also testified about photos of gangsters and himself and people throwing down gang signs seemingly celebrating gang life. That ended up on his Facebook page many years after nineteen ninety four. I mean, there wasn't even Facebook back in nineteen ninety four. But according to remain he had more altruistic motives for posting these photos, and Mikhail seem to have her doubts. Vision, man. A Mark people that long. One. Very one thirty. Thank you. We've already shown this sign this picture, except I didn't show it with the comments. We call this picture that you posted on pay. So you're Castellini you posted that game signed as gang intervention. Correct. Has all the gang things on your posts or for being invention? Right. Oh, but not gang intervention. So. Let's look. Sorry. Go ahead. Trust some of shoes into over gay Russian. Some of the alley. To show. Okay. So let's look at the reality of your life. Mr. romaine, look at the very comment right here. Very next to the last comment there. Nothing. But jeez off the nine night media, right? Is that invention or just being transparent? Romaine was a cool customer during cross examination MCI with sarcastic and pointed in her questions, but she never seemed to get under his skin at one point. She went city by city through the list of police departments. Where remain had applied for jobs over the years getting none of them. And this was like more than a dozen police departments across southern California all the way up to San Francisco. I don't know if this was any reflection on his guilt or innocence, but romaine barely shoulda pulse. While answering these questions the prosecutor couldn't get to them if she was hoping to draw out an outburst or an answer to conflicted with previous testimony, then she was disappointed because of the fan never flinched after Romain returned to his seat at the defense table McKesson. Call a few other witnesses. But to me, it was all anti-climatic after hearing romaine testify, one of those witnesses was a retired military surgeon who said he had treated more than a thousand bullet wounds. I'm talking about combo. Bulletins in his career. And he didn't think the wounds on Romains arm as photographs way back in nineteen eighty seven looked like gunshot wounds. This was of course, to bolster Romains claim in his testimony that he had received wounds on his arm during a fight with his ice pick. Wheeling brother Andrei McKesson, tried to further support the claim when detective Rick Jackson was recalled to the stand Jackson had earlier testified. There remain had told him in the very first interview back in nineteen eighty seven that he had suffered the wounds on his arm in a car accident. The defense attorney asked where the audio tape of that interview was Jackson had to acknowledged that because of technical difficulties the admission about the arm wounds was never recorded. Are you where romaine question? Was on anywhere where he tells you then you're seeing these injury. No, we should. Is it anywhere on their rain tells you hear see that Ingrid in ours? Wiretaps? Yes. Wire ever hear visceral as saying either see that injury. The prosecutor then drew an explanation from Jackson. Or which is unfortunate battery-operated we. Someone on this flip over tape which later. Glady and had died and so reported so use it a plug in the wall and other manner in part of the. Was that? The first half was not on tape. But. Second. Okay. Mckesson didn't waste any time jumping on that answer. So if I'm testimony detective. Ask him how he received that. You told you car accident? But then takes the first twenty thirty minutes of eight with working record the first twenty or thirty minutes and Kim grand the same way after. So I wondered number court out of her. As final witness McKesson brought his own client back to the stand. This was so Pierre romaine could finish the defense phase with a strong denial of the charges against him. Moving. Say shot to no, sir. And he. That. Case was now coming to an end each side closing arguments to present to the jury. The question was what could the defense argue McKesson had been unsuccessful in getting third party culpability case in front of the jury. The judge kept deflecting that because he had not built the case that Andre was the shooter. So what was left could you say to the jury? We'll find out in the next episode. Thanks for listening to chapter eight of murder book. I want to thank our police consultants and judge Larry fiddler of the Los Angeles Superior court for allowing us set setup. Our records department one oh six this podcast is produced by Tara Lee Langford, Grace Kelly provides the music, including our theme song by the grave additional music from pond five and premium beep post production aditorial services provided by Fenwick and additional editing by Jason king. Subscribe at apple podcasts dot com slash murder book. So you can be the first to listen to our next episode, please share the show with someone who loves true crime as much as you do and be sure to leave us a rating and redo so we know how much you are enjoying the show. More information about murder book photos from the crime scene and transcripts from each episode can be found at murder podcast dot com. We'll be back next week with chapter nine.