20 Episode results for "Gladwin"
Little Happier: I Love You as Much as the Salt in My Soup.
"This episode is brought to you by the new podcast go and see hosted by Malcolm. Glad well produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see as a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy of Janci Jen boot Sou- which means go and see for yourself and idea that stems from the belief that if you experience something yourself you have a better understanding of people and how to create something for them in the series. Lexus invites gladwin Japan discover their unconventional thinking and processes firsthand find out. How a Japanese tea ceremony influenced the engineering of a car window. How the sound of an engine is tune like a musical composition to elicit certain emotions. How Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation? Gladwin learned that no detail is left behind and that a car company can learn more about cars by studying people go inside lexuses headquarters in Japan right along on top secret test track with a master driver. Sit in the expertly designed seat that actually lowers to welcome you into the vehicle. Follow glad dwell on his journey wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these I'm Gretchen Rubin and this is a little happier. I love all teaching stories. And many folktales are also teaching stories. This is one of my favorites and I quoted often when I tell my daughters. I love you more than the sultan my soup. If you don't know the story here it is. There are many versions of the story from many different places. So here's my version. Once upon a time far away there was a kingdom ruled by a king who had three daughters. He knew that he must choose which daughter would rule after him and he decided he would give that honor to the daughter who loved him most so the king asked his eldest daughter. How Much Do you love me? She said I love you more than gold and silver and he was satisfied the next day he asked his middle daughter. How Much Do you love me? She said I love you more than diamonds. Rubies and he was satisfied the next day he asked his youngest daughter. How Much Do you love me? She said I love more than the sultan my soup. He was furious. He'll must not love me at all. He said to love me only as much assault. Cheapest and communist things available leave and never return so the king banished his daughter and cast her out into the world. She travelled to a neighbouring land where she met an old woman who said. Why are you traveling alone? Dear Child where are you going? The princess wept as she explained what had happened. The old woman said. Don't worry my dear. You're loving daughter and soon your father will understand be patient and she said the girl to work gathering flowers and soon the king and all his subjects noticed something strange begin to happen all the salt in the land vanished and try as they might not traders could bring new salt across the border. There was no salt anywhere. The people gathered around the castle to cry out to the King. Save us the king and his two daughters to began to waste away. Everywhere was the sound of people groaning salt salt far away. The old woman knew what was happening. Return home to your father. She ordered the princess now he understands so the princess traveled back to her home and she approached her father who lay listlessly in his bed. Now I understand my dear. He told her what is gold or silver diamonds. Rubies besides salt. Your love is the greatest. Forgive me father forgive you she said. I love you more than the salt in my soup and with that all the salt and the kingdom was restored. I love this story. It's such a good reminder that often it's the most ordinary and familiar things the things that we take for granted that are actually the most precious to us of. All I'm Gretchen Rubin and I hope this makes your week a little happier.
Introducing The Next Big Idea
"History of we've been so bombarded with new information where do you even start well you could start with one degrees new podcast the next big idea ideas are coming at you every day from different directions you're constantly being told think bigger create better lib smarter never inhuman hit he dabbles when he's in his teens he decides to spend more time on tennis although he still plays soccer and a few other sports his parents don't push them towards any particular sport spotify or wherever you're listening to this right now you can also find a link on the episode notes under his belt it makes sense that's how champions are made or are they five thousand miles away in amidst astounding Switzerland lives another he enjoys playing lots of different sports basketball handball soccer tennis he also skis wrestles and skateboards which next big idea is right. We're about to find out while you're listening to this preview be sure to subscribe to the next big idea on apple podcasts I dea curator's from business and science to health and culture each week they'll bring you one of their favourite new ideas ideas that can change Malcolm Gladwin popularized the rule in his best selling book outliers but since then David Epstein has challenged the notion in his bestselling Book Range Amateur Golf Championship and by twenty one he will become the youngest player ever to win the masters for Years Tiger Woods will be the most dominant Golfer in not to share this moment and things to everybody up two of the best if you're about to hear an exclusive clip from the next big idea that brings into question whether or not the ten thousand hour rule makes a champion a boy is born in a mid size town in northern California when he's seven months old another television talk show producer set up a putting green and
MBA1443 Must Read: Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell
"Welcome to the show business insight to can't afford to miss everyday with their daily business lessons for the real world. I'm your host your coach. Your teacher Omar's in-home I'm also the CO founder of the hundred dollar. NBA Business Training and community online and today's episode is a must read episode on our must read episodes. I share with you a book that I've read the has has influenced me as an entrepreneur. Share with you it's insights as takeaways. And why you should read it to Teddy's must read is talking to strangers by Malcolm. Gladwin Malcolm I'm glad was one of my favorite authors. He's the master at going deep at one topic in his books his a near Times bestselling author of tipping point. Outliers outliers blink. And so many more. This book is all about our relationships with people. We don't know people that we meet for the first time. Our assumptions are theories about them. The conclusions we make in her mind how we communicate with them and this is really relevant to entrepreneurs because we talked to strangers all the time caller customers our partners people that we need conferences or business meetings. Or even when you're meeting somebody while you're traveling for business and they ask you. Hey what do you do. The subtitle of this book is brilliant. It's what we should know about the people. We don't know that's what we get into the insights takeaways. He's from that book in today's episode. So let's get into it. Let's get down to business in today's episode of the one hundred dollars Show is supported by portia. Putting it helps thousands of creators earn money from their passion. It's an all in one digital storefront that you can sell courses memberships and digital downloads in one place. It's the most creator friendly platform on the market with zero transaction fees and a super friendly twenty twenty four seven life support team. No matter what plan you're on so they're going to take care of you if you're just getting started putting it eliminates all the technical headaches it takes care of every aspect of selling course or membership or digital download if you've got video courses they do the video hosting for you to charge your members on a reoccurring basis for a membership. PUTTY takes care of it. You want to secure way for people to download your products. When they pay for them they take care of that to the also offer? Free Migrations on their Shaker. Your plan best of all podium putzer money where their mouth is. They have a thirty day free trial with no credit card required. See if you don't love it you don't pay a penny if you're looking at a online course sell any kind of digital product or start a membership site. Check them out and support the show by GONNA PODIUM DOT COM slash. NBA That's Peo- Dia Dot com slash MBA in this book as Malcolm Lead while does so very well he challenges orange is what we think we know. We think we know them. We think we understand them. We shake their hand. We look them in the eye. And we kinda form an opinion about them and that opinion kind of stays with US pretty much forever. We make a conclusion so quickly about the people in front of us in a matter of seconds. Is this thinking faulty. What else should we? We'd be doing. This book really outlines the fact. That strangers are complex and he breaks all down in this book. The first thing he touches on this book is what's called the truth. Default factor as human beings by default. We think people are always telling the truth or at the very least as we think most of the time people don't lie to US but he shares several studies in this book. This show people ally more often than we think. In in fact on average fifty percent of the time people are lying about big and small things but even worse in these studies. They find out that we're really bad at detecting liars almost half the time we get it wrong. Which makes you think? Hey maybe my judgment of character is not as good as I think it was. So why don't we do this. Well it just has to do with the fact. This is what we've been conditioned in society an orphan society to work. We have to just take things for face value and believe people oh by their word. Otherwise you're gonNA live in an environment of distrust and nothing gets done if you don't trust anybody to do anything or don't trust what they say it becomes very a selfish society and you don't work together. In fact he reminds me of the country of Moldova. A study shows that Moldova's one of the most unhappy places in the world is a country that was part of the former Soviet Union. And the big reason why people are unhappy is because corruption bribery. Lying is so prevalent in society eighty and well known. No one trusts anybody. In fact people won't go to the doctor and Moldova unless the doctor is thirty five years or older because says they're worried that the young doctors bribed their teachers surpass medical school. Now for most of us. We don't live in mobile. We live in societies. Where most of us do what we say? Amy Kind of fulfill our end of the bargain. And that's why we just blanket Lee easily say. Hey everybody's kind of doing the right thing and saying the truth and we'll take everything for face value and you're you're taught this in schools for young age so we can have a functional society but the truth of the matter is is that many people are not as honest as we think they are. The book starts with this chapter. And it's really a slap in the face Kinda reminds you. Hey maybe I need to be my guard a little bit now. Melton Godoi also saying that everybody is alliance cheat and you're surrounded by a bunch of people that are going to seaview. Many of these lies are innocent and they're just ways to kind of make them feel better for themselves but he is saying they are strangers. Don't treat trangers like people you've known for decades. The other thing about strangers is transparency when you meet a new client when you meet a new customer if the first time you've spoken to them there's going to be a low level. Transparency is going to be a low level really understanding. Who Do they really are as a person their likes dislikes how they're really feeling? Most people don't wear their emotions on their sleeves. Most people are not open and transparent from the moment you meet them and this is really important to know as business owners because if you're looking for answers honest answers transparent feedback. It's best to get from customers. You've known for some time you spoken to them a few times so if you want to get the real juice about your products or services. If they're really enjoying them if they can be improved any way. It's better that you build upon those relationships early on so that you can have those conversations leader and they can be transparent strangers anymore but that first time you talked to them Cole Call. It's not natural for strangers to be transparent. They WanNa hold the cards close to their chest right. They don't know yet and they don't know what the ramifications of of their honesty will be so. If you want honest answers got the work for them. We're GONNA have to actually take some time and just get to know them a little bit. Have other chats ca cat you can help them in any way and not really ask for feedback in the beginning after a few conversations and some time has passed. People will be a lot more comfortable being transparent apparent another concept. That's fascinating book. It's called coupling often. We make assumptions. We draw conclusions about strangers. That are just not accurate. For example. If you never heard of Tony Robbins the personal development coach. You know anything about him. He's a stranger lot will make sumptious like this guy was just born with the gift of Gab Web. He probably came from a good family came from good schools. We make all these assumptions. We might even take one fact and couple with his success to save for example. His Mentor with Jim Ryan. Off Course Jim Rohn was his mentor. The Godfather of personal development. If I had Jim Rone's my mentor. I'd be just as successful sessile and that's why he's successful. Tony Robbins is successful because Jim Rohn was his mentor. We make this coupling effect and we just think that's the truth breath but it's not because we don't see the full picture we don't see the full environment he came from for those who do not Robbins. For a period of time. He was homeless. He lived out out of his car. He was a janitor. Totally broke. Came from very little. Meat actually struggled to scrape together enough money to go to that first. Jim Rohn conference conference to see him. Live yes Jim Ryan was part of his life in was his mentor. But there were so many other factors that you didn't consider because he didn't know him he was a a stranger if you did know them well I think he's successful because he's resilient because you're because he wanted to bad and that allowed him to have the opportunity to be mentored by Jim Ryan. Coupling is very dangerous. When you're making assumptions about strangers a lot of us we just get lazy? We just want to you know rationalize what we see in front of us and therefore we just make these conclusions. There's so many insights in this book but what I love about Malcolm. Glad wells style is that he explains his point of view explains what he's really dissecting through stories and these stories are often intertwined with research and therefore you're reading researcher reading great stories in. You're not even noticing it. You're just reading nice kind of written book giving you examples examples through storytelling and by the time you get to the end of the chapter even the end of the book. You're like a not only learned something new. I learned it in context. I learned in reality reality and see how it actually gets applied in the real world guys more on today's topic before that. Let me give love to today's sponsor. This week's episode is presented by personal capital offering financial tools and wolf management. Are you ready to purchase a home. Are you saving for college. Tuition talk with personal. Capitals registered. Sure did visors help you build a personalized plan or download the personal capital APP and user. Free money tools to three sixty degree view of all your finances. Such as credit card statements saving stocks four one K.. Located all in one place and because it's never too early to think about retiring personal capitals retirement planner can help you easily manage manage and build your retirement plan for more information go to personal capital dot com personal capital invest with logic plan with heart to rub up titties lesson. Malcolm Gladwin talks about a lot of different topics in his many books. This is one of the best books you could read from his Library Library of books as an entrepreneur talking to strangers I would say the tipping point is another one and I often don't make this distinction about books but it's really relevant to Malcolm glad type of writing. I actually recommend this book in written form and not in audio form not because as narrated poorly or anything anything like that but because the type of writing the type of information you're going to be absorbing in Malcolm glide wells kind of books or cards you sometimes to put the book down or your kindle down if you're reading it on a kindle and just absorbing what you just read to think about it to ponder to see how applies to your life. It's not so easy to do that with an audible guests. You can pause but often. They're onto the next thing already. So picking up on paperback or kindle. I highly recommend and talking to strangers by Malcolm. Glad well thank you so much for listening to the hundred dollar make sure you hit subscribe right now by hitting subscribe you you have access to or over fourteen hundred lessons. And it's the only way you have access by hitting subscribe so whatever. You are using podcasts. Whether it's Apple Apple podcasts or spotify stitcher radio overcast by hitting subscribe you have access who are episodes also. It makes sure that when the next episode we air air is available. It's available on your device and if you want to give any feedback leave us on items rating on review. Love to hear what you think of the show before. We're going to leave you with this. I I've said this so many times but I'm reminded of this by doing this book. Review books are one of the best investments you can make in your personal development in your professional development for five ten fifteen dollars. Are you kidding me. You gained so many insights so many ideas and a renewed perspective. What value value? That's incredible this is why I think all entrepreneurs should have a book budget and it should be pretty much unlimited. But don't buy them and don't read them by him and make sure you read them by the next one. Don't hold back when it comes to books. Thank you so much for listening. I'll check you tomorrow's episode. I'll see you then take care
AIDS is Solvable
"<music> i'm maeve higgins and this is solvable interviews with the world's most innovative thinkers who are working to solve the world's biggest problems now if this program were airing in the early one thousand nine hundred eighty s and i told you that the problem of how to treat those with h._i._v. could be solved you laugh in my my face. You might even call me quack now. That would be mean because i would be baby but remember back then h- h._i._v. and aids were terrifying terrifying epidemic on one of the worst things was that people didn't recognize anything familiar about this new communicable disease that was laying waste to so many different groups around the world but discovering the secrets of h._i._v. Aids and devising treatments for us did turn out to be thousand vote for this episode. Malcolm gladwin spoke to a man whose work was crucial to making that possible. He's one of the most influential figures in twentieth century science but my name is david baltimore. I am professor at the california institute of technology known fondly as caltech and i early on in my career figured out that viruses in their desire to grow florida have taken advantage adage of all sorts of molecular tricks and one of them was to copy our dna which violated the central dogma doc mov biology but set cancer research direction now he sounds pretty cool about it but it was for this discovery free the david baltimore was awarded the nobel prize in physiology and medicine along with renato del beco- howard commit now remember that name you hear hear a lot about howard to win the work they did independently of one another proved that what was known then as the central dogma that genetic information nation carried in the building blocks of life or n._a._n._d._a. only travelled one way from dna to are in a two protein they found out that was wrong and that knowledge enabled them to solve the mystery of how viruses cause cancer they discovered what are known as retroviruses and these viruses turned normal cells into cancer cells permanently by altering their d._n._a. David baltimore did this work decades before the aids epidemic but it was this research that made the discovery and treatment off hater v possible something he had no idea of at the time malcolm gladwin actually covered baltimore's work when he was a science journalist for the washington post in the early nineteen nineties during the race for h._i._v. and aids treatments that was really a matter of public desperation one question that stayed with malcolm from that time how were these scientists ready to mobilize so quickly around such a new and terrifying problem to answer that question. Let's go right back to the beginning to the nineteen sixties when baltimore and other scientists intas were getting their stars. They had no idea that their work would later help the world understand something it so desperately needed to they follow the scientific methods and their own curiosity wherever that lead and sometimes the results put them at odds with the dogma of their own fields so let's meet the twenty-three-year-old david baltimore who had become fascinated by animal viruses and took a course on them at cold spring harbor labs. Here's malcolm's conversation with david baltimore tomorr- i'm i had lots of questions and but i was pretty clear that those questions were things that were going to drive. My life that i understood stood them well enough to be ready to do that. When you go to cold spring to study animal viruses what viruses are studying and this is all mouse models. What what is what is <hes>. It's a lots mouse models or sells you could grow viruses in cells and so those were the objects that we worked polio or polio like viruses were one part. I ended up doing my thesis on polio lifers. There were classified viruses would would membranes around them that brought us into membrane biology in very different sorts of considerations very rich and so we worked with those newcastle disease virus was one of and then there were viruses that cause cancer in particular. The row are coming virus. You are kind kind of self assuredness. About what is you wanted to do. How much of that is you and how much of that is a function of the fact that the field is in its infancy and so a twenty three year olds guesses as good as anyone's right yeah. I suppose that's true. <hes> be different if you were entering an incredibly hedley mature if yeah right it probably would yeah because i i mean i can remember weeks months. When i was doing my my face is at rockefeller in which i would come in in the morning at i would work on an idea and set up experiments and read those out a couple a couple of days later and discover some brand new and you couldn't do that in a mature field of science because other people would have done it before you but nobody had done these sorts rows sarcoma virus enters back into our story some years into the future so i'm curious curious about this as a non scientist you encounter this virus early on in your career in retrospect you realize my my facing this correctly in retrospect that you realize you never really understood it or you only saw portion of it or how would you describe your primitive understanding of that virus in retrospect. I was not interested in as an experimental object. I hard virus to work with. Why was it hard. It didn't engro very well. It didn't you didn't get much material and i had not yet been captured by the problem of cancer. I just didn't think about it much and so as part of this course it was something that we focused a ten john but i never really thought about it then for another ten years almost yeah while i worked out the sort of basic molecular biology of a variety of other viruses and then i came back because at that point we knew the basic lifestyle most fires but now the cancer causing viruses stood out as different and hard to understand what was different arturas stand about them. Well the fundamental thing was that they had ed aren a as their genome and yet they were able to establish a permanent position inside the cell and run the cell so he turned it from enormous to cancer so there were dna viruses that could do that. He was an arnuhar's and that didn't make sense howard had been driven by that question for ten years. Previously he first formulated that question christian when he was a graduate during the time he's graduating from caltech. It was a a relatively easy jump for him mm to say the name must be copied into d._n._a. And then he spent about ten years at the university of wisconsin trying to find an experiment that would convince anybody else he couldn't so ten manhasset of ten years in the wilderness and he's not getting a lot of encouragement from the scientific community those ten years why because the papers he's publishing are not convincing so this is is. It's a tribute to his own innate severna simone zone <unk>. He convinced himself on some theoretical level. It must be something there because he was driven by that by his observation asian that the fire is controlled the behavior of the south's only genes control the behavior of cells and so the virus had to put it information. The form of genes and dna was the form of jeans. He sorta czar religiously believed that therefore the information they had to be read to d._n._a. And he wasn't much of a chemist. He didn't think like a biochemisty thought like a geneticist so the idea that are in a template dna made sense to him as words but he had never never actually done an experiment that looked at that i had spent those ten years doing that form of experiment with all sorts of the different biological materials and all sorts of different ways that was my bread and butter yeah so yeah. Let's let's talk about your entry into this so donkey. Howdy is up in wisconsin tilts gonna win. Mill and david baltimore decided to join in the windmill tilting <hes>. What point do you dispatch will attract you. I mean i know exactly what form because i had been working on on a virus called <unk> virus and we had discovered that it's the complement of the sense strand of our n._a. So it's a senseless strand that acts solely as a template to make sense strands and if you think about about that a virus like that can't just go into his cell and take over the cell because it has the copy it's aren a into into messenger ernie and the only way can do that as if either the cell has an enzyme to do that and we had looked for such enzyme could never find what or or if the enzyme was in the virus particle so i had looked for it in the virus particle and found that the virus particle article had an are dependent ornate bloom raise that copied to sit senseless stranded instrument and that's clearly how infection affection got started and suddenly i opened up oldfield of negative tran viruses so now it became trivial to say well. Maybe be howard has something. Let's have a look at the virus particles of ardy tumor vars. They might have an enzyme that copies are eighteen o c once you've made the insight that these viruses are carrying around rome photocopiers whatever right they have little illu title in-house xerox you'd like oh. Let's just look for the maybe these are everywhere machines of the minute you find the end the enzyme and the one you're working on. Is it instant that you think about what how it's doing or is it something you the pops into your head six months later. I'm just so curious about that kind. Of what is it inside me. I think doc it wasn't very long. We did one other thing i which is we wanted to extend it to other viruses that look the same the electron microscope and we found a number of other negatives transpires right away and then i said where else can we carry this idea to what i said well. How about our nature viruses. How hard was it to find. This particular. Enzyme said is true view a really. It's really the today's today's notion of two days of experiments two days so it's just the idea of knowing where to look and what to look for and what to look for naive and we're question. Do you know what you've done the time yeah. I knew what we had done in terms of cancer it was clear that we had broken over cancer research. I didn't know what else we done. H._i._v. hadn't been discovered. I didn't know we had set up the understanding of h._i._v. I didn't know that the genome of humans in all all organisms has lots of transcribed dna in it comes from various sources so it was much richer and more complex than i you could say with any assurance except for the implications for for cancer. We're talk a little bit of h._i._v. Promotion mm-hmm undo a kind of alternate history if h._i._v. arrives as a force ten years earlier in sixty seven not seventy seven what happens scientific medical disaster the worst thing that can happen and it was proved in the hey chevy epidemic is not to know what's causing a disease because that gives liberty to fantasy and one prisons since fantasies as good as anothers so you don't know who to believe. The public doesn't know what to believe it. Don't how it's spread. You don't know if it is infectious the early days of the of the h._i._v. epidemic there are all sorts of theories about homosexual sags poppers. Here's drugs people were taking until you knew it was a virus. It didn't know how to intervene. You didn't know what to do to protect yourself so h._i._v. is more than a virus a retrovirus and its operating by the very principles that you intended uncovered but absent that knowledge knowledge we could no it was infectious. Note was a virus but not be able to we couldn't find it couldn't fight. You can't find it a less. You know it's this particular class of it was the search for reverse transcriptase in the virus particles that opened up the knowledge that it was a virus. I was causing the disease yeah yeah and then secondarily. You can't even begin to design drugs against it. I am i the first wave of successful drugs. Are all those editor <unk> yeah yes yeah. They are attacking this very right <hes> of their nuclear data analogs so they they look like pieces of arna described in the mosinee. Yes describe the mechanism unisom of that first wave of successful anti-hiv drugs. The way that you copy aren't into d._n._a. Is by copying one nuclear tied at a time into its complement by the complementary rules that have been laid down by watson crick that apears a pair would t- in cheap pairs would say what these drugs for were analogues of the eight t g c that it fit into the slot where the copying went on but then couldn't be extended further so they terminated the the growth of the d._n._a. and they are that's what they're called chain terminators and the theoretical basis for that entire operation is z. understanding that this is a virus that is operating to the principles of trench right yeah right if you didn't know that if you didn't ask that question you wouldn't have found the virus and we would have been in the wilderness so if it had come about ten years earlier before we had the reverse first transcriptase. It wouldn't a lot longer before we understood that it was a virus saga. I don't know how long it would have been. I'm wondering whether once the dust settles on the discovery of res- transcriptase is there a moment when your mind wanders and you start to think about all of the long like i know he said immediately was clear. It was going to have an impact on cancer but did you ever for example. Do never out of the blue occurred to you that wow what if we we did have a consequential buyers came along that operated. That was a retrovirus now. We're in a much stronger. I mean i wonder did you ever gain out any of these scenarios in your mind not not a whole lot because 'cause we had enough to think about now. I then became passionately interested in how you copy arnaiz into a d._n._a. And when i say how there are all sorts of details of that process that are just fascinating molecular biology and so there was an area my lab which focused on that the other thing we focused on was was retroviruses and their ability to cause cancer because we had opened up a field and i wanted to be part of that that field and so i went out on a hunt for a mouse virus that was as good as raw sarcoma virus as a object of study but you could do in the context of mouse genetics and so you really could take advantage of of the whole history of of mouse biology and i found one and which was called abelson mary leukemia vars and it was the the secret to understanding chronic myelogenous leukemia in the end. I mean because turned out to be a virus that used an enzyme that was part word of the very serious human disease but i didn't know that time i mean it was just a model that fit what i wanna do a lab so i didn't. I think a whole lot about where where else there might be. Viruses like this and there were so many other people doing that right away combat. I teach i._v. For a moment when it comes time to construct these antivirals for h._i._v. Your honesty borrowing the central scientific insight here are they also though borrowing from all of this subsequent filling in all the gaps work. I mean if you were saying you then got really interested in how this process yeah they are they taking that work and using that to help construct construct drugs yes yeah yep for instance the integrase i mean we didn't discover integrase but working out the details of of versions <unk> ultimately you come to something which has to go into the nucleus and associated self with dna in the nucleus and that was an integrase so integrase inhibitors turn out to be the very best drugs and there were a number of others proteus is a protease is very important cutting up proteins into bite size pieces and if you inhibit that you can prevent the virus from growing and so they're protease inhibitors so yeah every aspect of the virus that we've ever studied eddie then lends itself to the development of drug at the time. You're doing all this work. How large is your lab. Oh it's about five or six people. It's you helpless students <hes> couple of post docs. It's tiny small. I i mean i had only just moved to m._i._t. In sixty eight yeah so i didn't yet have a pipeline of people coming the lab. I have looked grant so you have to have that moment. I have grants from h largely to do work on on mango virus poliovirus the virus. I don't think i got any grants. Certainly didn't get a grant to work on darnay to viruses and we did the negative tran- virus work without grants. We just use the money we had from other sources. How large those grants this is late sixties. Oh how they're probably a hundred thousand dollars was a lot of money in those <hes> i. I don't remember do you. When you said you made had an observation like oh maybe that is explains. What ten has been puzzling over. I love the way which is to the two of you contribute beautifully to this to the success of this new problem coming from different directions if tim and hasn't been puzzling over it with that thought silicon. I've been in the back of your mind. Perhaps not yeah if nobody had been thinking about it. Would i have come to it. I i don't know it's it's a very hard hypothetical to partly because i as i knew about howard's interest in work for that whole tenure period yeah. She asked what was going on in virology. That was one thing going on. I'm curious about what has that. That experience taught you about the way science ought to be structured. Well one of the most important things to me me is that young people often do things that are sort of off the beaten track and can produce real change in the way we think and so it's very important to give young people the opportunity and the way we've structured educational process in science. We don't give people nuff independence early enough near careers to take full advantage of the time when i think is her naturally have the most <unk> creative opportunities and so the fact that i was an i'm partly modeling that statement on my own life because ause i managed to get that kind of independence from very early on partly because the people i chose to work with partly because i i was i guess fairly aggressive about it and so i was making my own decisions in science from at the time i really started out. Most people don't get that opportunity and most people probably can't handle it but there are more people blue can handle it than thin are given the opportunity so i have as i've gone on and built institutions tried to build into that the opportunity for young people to get that kind of freedom as early as possible so that they can take advantage of the time when i think that most creative and and they're also least burdened by personal responsibility today when people get out of they're training their thirty five if they're lucky by which time they have families and they have also two other responsibilities and i think that that's a shame does it a young baltimore. Twenty nineteen have a harder or easier time of it than a david baltimore in nineteen fifty nine. I think it's it's harder order now but it's not impossible one thing i set up that a lot of places have emulated is a fellows program at the whitehead institute which i started which is a time that people can be independent and yet not have done a poster and only the very the best people are accepted and it's just turned out one after another great people. Thank you very much. There's something i should tell you. I don't think you know it and that's actually what happened. The day after i made the discovery oh nixon invaded baited cambodia and m._i._t. Went on strike and i was in the streets supporting my <unk> game out of jail leading groups marching down the streets of cambridge for <hes> about five days and then i came back the lab thought it all out and finished. I experiments strange world. We live in in this episode to me really highlights how scientists curiosity conviction and creativity can all combine to one monday help somebody face props most devastating diagnosis they ever have to face and also it made me think about how giving young scientists the chance to make their own choices and to be creative even when they're early on in their careers when expertise and experience seems to be extremely important that's good too and also of course it's david baltimore pointed. I had it takes more than one person's work to come up with actual treatments that end up saving lights the intellectual generosity china rosty. He's shown throughout his career and now into his teaching life is exciting to think about an gives me hope that many more problems we want saw aw as the end of the road are in fact solvable now if you're interested malcolm dodwell has actually dedicated an episode of his podcast revisionist history to the story of the search for retroviruses and it features david baltimore. It's called the obscure virus club. I hope you go into thing. Solvable is collaboration between pushkin industries and the rockefeller foundation with production by laura hyde. Hester can't laura caesar there and ruth barnes from chalk and blade pushkin's executive producer is nia lebel research by sheriff vincent engineering by jason gambro and the great folks folks at g._s._i. Studios original music composed by pasco wise and special. Thanks to maggie taylor heather fine dunia barton carly mcclary lori jacob weisberg and malcolm glad well you can learn more about solving today's biggest problems at rockefeller foundation dot org slash solvable. I'm maeve higgins now. Go salvos sir.
Amy Coney Barrett Joins the Supreme Court | Chelsea Handler
"You're listening to comedy. Central. This is fight night a new podcast from iheartradio. They thought he robbed a dead man in this country guys who would not hesitate to blow your air. This story from Atlanta Georgia has been reported for fifty years. But now for the first time you're going to hear what really happened. From people who lived it? Listen and follow fight night on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Dealing loss. And, we've got the PODCAST for you. Labute's I'm Christopher Robertson and I'm Amanda Knox I know what? It's like to be stuck to wind up in a life I never expected, but your maze might be a cruise ship or your mentor. Husband. So come on, get lost with us as we step into the personal habits of people like Andrew Yang Lavar Burton and Malcolm Gladwin. Listen to labyrinths and the iheartradio APP on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey what's going on everybody welcome to the Danish social distancing show. I'm Trevor Noah today is Tuesday the twenty seventh of Tober which means if you mail in your ballots oft today. There is a chance it won't arrive in time to be counted. So, if you don't WanNa, risk your vote not being counted, then you need to bring your mail in ballot to a polling, place a dropbox or go vote in person after all. You don't WanNa Miss. What could be the last election in American history do you anyway coming up tonight show America has a new top judge and Asks undecided voters what the Hell they're problem is. So, let's do this people. Welcome to the social distancing show. From Trevor's couch in New York. City to your couch somewhere in the world. This is the daily social distancing show with trivial. Pursuit. Let's kick things off with what's on everyone's mind right now. The US presidential election is just one week away one week people and passions are running high. In Florida a man went on a backhoe blitz stealing a bulldozer and adding his own curb appeal to homes Biden supporters James Blight drove around. Haines city digging out Biden. Harrison's from front yards according to authorities. He'd been drinking whisky all day and stole the bulldozer from a nearby Arby's construction site. This is truly. Such an amazing Florida story. The only question now is whether this guy is going to end up in jail all the governor's mentioned, but it also goes to show how everybody is too obsessed with politics right now. I mean this dude stole bulldozer. and. His first thought was to drive over campaign signs. He could have done so much more. He could have moved people's cause to another parking spot or stolen in ATM knocked over a fire hydrant to watch the water spray. Our guys life is so much bigger than just politics. Also this I thing that bulldozing those signs was going to make a difference in the election. What was the logic here? Like the owners of those houses, we're gonNA, walk outside like Oh, my. God How will I remember who to vote for now in fact if I was one of the people he did this to I wouldn't be mad I just by Moya signs and put them in my backyard and the shape of a pool. Yeah. Yeah. You missed the other one that's the end I put two there and look I hate to blame video, games for anything. But. Maybe this wouldn't have happened if grand theft auto would release a new game already, it's been seven years Rockstar the people are hungry for it's meanwhile president trump the Florida men and chief is holding corona virus giveaways all across the Midwest, and he clearly is getting tired of Joe Biden because now. Putting efforts into getting. A Harris fighting's running-mate. How about hurt come? Did you see your last night on television with the laugh. Hug She kept laughing I said is there something wrong with her to I said is there something wrong with her? She kept laughing? At very serious questions, she's considered America's by far most liberal senator. She's more liberal than crazy Bernie. Can you believe it? We're not GONNA have a socialist president especially Eddie Female Socialist present. We're not GONNA have it. WE'RE NOT GONNA put up with it. It's not GonNa Happen especially a female socialist president. Especially, a female. So what does that mean? If we're going to have socialism it better be a dude because I don't want some chick giving me free healthcare. What if she sticks if finger at my but I love the female socialist presidents is trump's worst nightmare because now I can just picture him waking up in a cold sweat and Milania just being like all. No honey. Was it the female socialist president again, I'm just kidding melania and trump don't share a bedroom and by the way who is Donald trump to anything about communist. Ready he's going to judge her loft like my man you look like you were built by the same company who made the Tower of Pisa I'm shocked people don't pose in front of you as well, but let's move on. Because if anyone needed a reminder about what's at stake in an election? Last night you it because last night's Republicans took full advantage of their hold on the white. House and the Senate by efficiently sealing the deal on their replacement for the late Supreme Court. Justice Ruth. GINSBURG from judge to. Justice. Barrett. Amy honeybear exactly. One month after being nominated by President trump amy cody Perritt now joins the nation's highest court concluding one of the quickest and most controversial Supreme Court confirmations in modern American history the late evening event punctuating the most partisan confirmation in more than one hundred, fifty years all. But one Senate Republican Maine's Susan Collins voting in favor of Barrett. Every Democrat voting against her president trump relishing in the made for TV photo op. It is highly fitting that Justice Barrett fills the seat of a true pioneer. For Women. Justice Ruth Bader. Ginsburg say what you want about the GOP man. This Shit Gangsta, they swapped out a supreme court seat in full weeks. This whole process toe process and four weeks was like watching a chop shop strip down your coffee pods like Yo I'll miss my Audi but you've gotta admire their technique and about you. But I was shocked to see the Senate move this quick I mean normally they take months to do anything but here they moved so fast it was disorienting. It was like when you call customer service and immediately speak to a human being this is Janet how can I help you? I wasn't ready I mean they just hustled Amy Coney Barrett straight from the confirmation to a midnight ceremony should look like the basic cable version of eyes, wide shut? And guys. You know that anytime you doing a daytime events nights. Something is wrong. Like if you're digging a hole during the day. Eighteen. But if you're digging that same hole at night. And you gotTa admit trump's comments about being the perfect replaceable. Our big is grade a showing he knows what he's doing. Because yes. Our BGN baritone both women. Barrett is GonNa dismantle all of our BG's good work. So. This would be like if the Lakers replaced the bronze with Ben Carson technically yes. Swapping one black man for another but good luck making the playoffs next season. Take. The shut as soon as A. But while Republicans are celebrating Senate Democrats had some ominous warnings for their colleagues who had finally crossed the line, our Republican colleagues are. Shattering the norms. And breaking the rules and breaking their word, and there will be consequences. I think there are now new rules in the Senate. Republicans are set them the next time. The American people give Democrats majority in this chamber you will have forfeited the right. To tell us how to run that majority if all of this rule breaking is taking place. What does the? Expect. What do they expect they? They expect that they're going to be able to break the rules with impunity and when the shoe may be on the other foot, nothing's going to happen who. Democrats not happy. This is the kind of warning. You hit the beginning of a horror movie. You'll rue the day you burned me alive for being a witch and I don't blame the Democrats for being so pissed. For. Them it has been a constant four year losing streak and every now, and again, they get a win at this point they basically the knicks politics but by the sounds of it, if Democrats take control of the Senate, the gloves are coming off except for you. Need to stay on so people can eat. and. These aren't just empty threats either. If the Poles can be trusted Democrats. Actually have a very good chance of taking control of the Senate and the presidency next year. So the question is, what are they gonNA. Do for revenge will according to Joe Biden. It's on. If elected, would you move to add more justices to the supreme? Court? If, elected, what I will do is put together a national commission of Bipartisan Commission of Scholars, Constitutional Scholars Democrats Republicans liberal conservative. and. I will Ask them do over a hundred and eighty days come back to me with recommendations as to how to reform the court system because it's getting out of whack, the way which is being handled finish not about court packing. There's a number of other things that are custom scholars have debated is looked to see what recommendations that commission my Mac Rarely Joe Biden. Democrats could have threatened to do. Anything. Expand the number of. Make the bathrooms and Congress gender fluid get drunk and bulldoze the Supreme Court. But instead they're like you just wait Mitch because in six months the Democrats are going to bring a bipartisan commission all up your rash restaurant patient we got you. I mean a six month commission. I don't know that you could filibuster yourself read the room. Joe. When everyone's like we're going to look club to shut shit down they've been banned. Or hear me out. WHO's ever heard of scrabble look here's the thing. The other day Mitch McConnell had a simple response to everyone who was concerned about how he got Barrett's onto the Supreme Court said. He said. Were them all elections have consequences and you know what? He's right. And there's another election coming up in a week and that's also going to have consequences too. But elections are only the beginning of the story. Republicans. Didn't take over the court just because they felt like they did it because the people who elected them made it clear that it was a priority. So. Whatever your priority is for the Supreme Court going forward. You bet a vote next week and then let the people you put an office. No what you expect from them. All right. When we come back, Desi line gets real with undecided voters. Support for this podcast comes from cdw and OBI. W, we get your organization can be demanding. The marketing teams assign my office, they want their adobe update now. With Adobe Value Incentive plan deployed by the experts at CDW, you can quickly and easily manage software subscriptions for the whole Thi Acrobat and create a cloud all included. Guys coming out don't hurt me. Satisfied digital workforce, you need adobe and it orchestration by CDW, people who get it find out more at cdw dot com slash adobe. What's up? This is Laura Kerensky and I'm Alexa Kristen we're the CO host of Atlantia, the advertising industry's most thought provoking podcast. We're back with our new partners iheartradio every other Tuesday to bring you more of the new and next marketing media and creativity. We introduce you to guess from in and outside of the Ad Industry to solve the biggest challenges and toughest questions facing marketers today island. Is, practitioners podcasts were critical thinking meets creativity and pitch points or the way it's been done before aren't allowed. We bring our listeners actionable perspectives to bring back to their brainstorms and boardrooms. Badland clubhouse reopens with Special Guest Malcolm Gladwin I'll be sure to follow us on twitter at added Atlanta podcast and listened to Atlanta on the iheartradio APP on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to daly social distancing show. With the election really underway polls show that fewer than five percent of voters are still undecided. But why is that even that high? Dizzy he finds, out. Every election season, we hear about that rarest most mysterious of demographics, the undecided voter few voters who may still be on the fence of people who matter more than anyone else in this election is voters are very important to harness in for either the Biden or trump campaigns. The undecided thirty percent of voters usually decide elections, and that's why politicians spend a lot of time trying to persuade them that how can anyone be undecided choosing between these guys this close to the election all of you are still undecided voters. Blessed. Completely undecided. For, not, so I'm. So when do you think you're going GONNA decide if you're undecided you know I. I don't know what I WANNA do. I. Feel like I'm stuck behind those people who every single flavor at Baskin Robbins and each of them have their own brand of indecision. There's biting curious Republicans. Straight ticket Republican until the already pretty much taken over by Donald Trump but I'm pro-life voted for trump in two thousand sixteen but I don't know all our country can can survive another four years of what feels like pure. They're also Democrats who are hiding from Biden something. I've seen with the with the Democratic Party Is. How A we'll take the African American of black vote. For granted and the independent WHO's pissed off with everybody what each candidate is offering is a luxurious. Someone. Can Go bankrupt because it emergency embarrassing. And I think that we lack maternity care for uninsured women Stephen Stop flirting with me. UNBEAR- eight. Okay. Don't get any ideas. Sorry. Go on. Okay Maybe picking a president is too big of a decision. How about we start with something smaller, right? Coke or Pepsi Pepsi. Coke chicken or fish. Chicken. Great. Shut up Stephen Shorter. So. They can make decisions. Then what's so hard about this one will election forecaster Rachel bid. OKAFOR has a provocative theory on whether the undecided are even real in the world of political science like we don't have all this mystery about undecided voters like if I was to talk to a group of undecided voters like the first thing I would ask them is Leeann to the Democrats or Republicans, and then if they told me that they did nine out of ten times, I can tell you who they're gonNA. Vote for sounds like a simple. Idea but it made Rachel's forecasts for the two thousand eighteen midterm elections. One of the most accurate thanks to a key theory winning elections isn't about persuading the undecided. It's about dating your team to show up, and the biggest motivator is how much you dislike the other side I knew like this this concept for political science research called negative partisanship, which is the fear and the hate that people feel towards the opposition party. It's like when I kept voting for dancing with the stars just to get Sean Spicer. That's exactly right. That's negative partisanship. Dancing with the stars when it comes to voting off d list celebrities, I'm more of a mass singer, Kinda girl. So if partisanship decides every election, why is anyone still pretending to be undecided? There's some sexiness to being undecided bright. I mean especially his presidential elections like you know you've got if you're in a swing state, get all these stump reporters wandering around. and. You know who's undecided who's onto You undecided you're saying that they just identify as undecided even when are not actually undecided like they're basically Rachel Bowling in decision you can tell they're fake is because they are you know they can't decide between Donald. Trump. And Joe Biden right there. FAKEST fakest. I'm GonNa, tell them to their face among the you guys. You're not actually undecided. You're just telling me that you're undecided to keep me on my toes for suspense. We'll guess what it's not working. Let's go around. which way are you leaning? I. Leading towards trump. Okay. Fine you're not. You do know who you're voting for. Can we still be friends? Let me think about it a little undecided. So Rachel as right most of these undecided were just making it for attention but I still had to ask her about the only thing that really matters this election I wonder who's going to win but don't tell me if it's bad news. On if it's good news. Don't say anything. Okay It is good news. I'm undecided about it. You know. Race. With me political science has a term for that fake. Making so much dizzy or when we come back I'll talk to the hilarious Chelsea handler you don't WanNa. Miss It. Why did wax replicas crowd in Italian church and what do wax organs tell us about the history of medicine? Why does the minicars still intrigue US and why would it's bovine mouth? Crave human flesh. Hi. I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick join us on the stuff to blow your mind podcast for the entire month of October as we take our annual descent into a host of bloody monstrous and terrifying topics from forest spirits that beckon you off the path to wax sculptors on a rampage will be looking at spooky subjects all this month to peel away the flesh and reveal the underlying science and history and leave you with an even richer understanding of a world. That's always weirder than we can imagine what sorts of scientific concepts can we glean from episodes of the outer limits or tales from the dark side, and what's the ghastly history and promising future of blood substitutes join us to find out new Halloween themed episodes published twice a week with older vault episodes reentering the world on Saturdays. To spread around some of last year's grizzly offerings. Listen to the stuff to your mind podcast on the iheartradio APP, apple podcasts or River Bichir podcasts. Thirteen days of Halloween. A remote hotels. His off along. The most unusual. They sound like someone you trust. Don't touch it. Don't look at it. Tour guide that can't be trusted what's it luck fates but place to. In Heaven. And the newest arrival. Is You. Can Call. Starring Keegan Michael Key as the caretaker, please make yourself at home. After all. This is it. Produced in three dimensional by neural audio to place you right in the center of the story in ways you'll have to hear to believe. For full exposure listen with headphones or air. PODS. One story each night starting October nineteenth and ending on. Halloween. For my heart radio and television listen to Aaron menkes thirteen days of Halloween on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the daily social distancing show earlier today I spoke with best selling author and comedian Chelsea Handler. Talked about her new standup, special the upcoming election and so much more Chelsea handler. Welcome to the daily social distancing show. Hi, Trevor How are you? I'm doing fantastic. Thank you very much. How are you doing, I? Feel like you have been on quite a journey over the years I know we spoke about some of the things you experienced in your book but your new standup special is out and it has been six years since you lost on the stage. So how are you and why now? I feel like I. wanted to bring some relief you know to this I'm that we're all stuck in between the pandemic NS administration. I really felt compelled to like figure out a way to shoot the standup special during covid and going home to new. Jersey just seemed kind of apropos of everything in the special I'm talking about and it was just for me a big reminder of humanity and the fact that we're all kind of struggling together and not to forget fat and to remind people like, Hey, there is laughter in pain and you know all of that good stuff. So it was meaningful to me to to shoot during. You know and to run the show during Cova, practice the sats and all of that staff and to give NC, bring everybody together for a night for many people who had not been out since covid started. So I've always loved how you put your special together. You know with its traveling to Africa and then coming back with a different perspective on life or doing all the drugs in the world and then doing a special about that experience. So the jobs are being. But but the why of this was really interesting to me because it has been six years since you lost on the stage doing a show like this and and I wanted to know why always intrigued by why someone comes back when they come back. I didn't really feel like I had anything to say in the stand ups like medium I think I was just exhausted by doing my shows and my books and my touring that I didn't feel like I was making a contribution. You know when I took a step back after leaving Netflix show a few years ago and really sat and thought and went to therapy and thought about my privilege in thought about the contribution I wanted to make rather than the taking and the taking and the cashing of checks and all of that and being allowed. Now you know just that it was like well, what? AM. I really, GonNa do what am I here say and who am I here to be an ally to all of those things started to you marinate in a different way for me and I stopped spinning eight plates at the same time was able to focus on one thing at a time. You know whether it'd be my book or my documentary or this special evolution, the integrity changes when you are focusing on one thing. So the more the deeper I can get the better off you know and the more I can impart in hopefully helping touch people you know in a way I hadn't before. What I love about the special is how you talk about therapy. What are some of the biggest things you learned about yourself in therapy that have now changed how Chelsea Handler approaches the world? Well first of all, I got the gift of south awareness which is invaluable to find out that I've been behaving like a bitch for so many years without even thinking about it. I was like, Oh, I'm just here to tell people the truth and it's like well, not everybody needs to hear it from me or is interested in hearing it from me so it was a big it. was. Very revelatory a to find that out about myself to find out that I had you know on delayed grief about something that happened as a little girl that I. had a trauma that you know moving to La. You live in this world where everyone wants to talk about trauma at triggers an manifestation and Kale, and eventually you know you fall into and you end up at a silent retreat. Sipping Kale juice with explosive diarrhea going how did I get here too but it's true. You know it helps to go to therapy and talk with somebody about your problems and it's the most humiliating experience. It's. That's why I had to share it because like you find out things about yourself that you're embarrassed to even say out. Loud. Right and you have to admit all of your shortcomings you know you have to admit your patients. The fact that you know I can't even stand in line at a Hudson booksellers at the airport because the slowness of the transaction and noise mate it's too slow. You know I mean going over all of these things with a therapist and then being. So what do you think I have add and they're like now it's a little bit more serious than that In my case, it was that I lacked empathy you know and for me, I was like a light bulb once that went off and I realized he was telling me the truth and I realized I did like. I was like, okay. Okay. I'm here to stay give me the information and you know go back and then once I realized you know everything's funny. You know if you're a comedian everything's funny, even death is funny. So you just need time to just kind of you know put it into your storytelling whatever your specialty is, and so I was really excited to share this with everybody and just kind of really show myself in a way that I hadn't been seen before either it was it wasn't scary. It was like it was new and exciting. It also felt a lot more vulnerable than we used to I mean it's a special when you talk about death in your family about you know your father dealing with your your brothers passing you talk about the pain that you experience. You share a lot in a way that is very vulnerable and it feels very different for us to see with you. Even you talking about not drinking as much. You know which is very funny. But also really honest in the way that you were telling the story Did you enjoy being that vulnerable because I mean like as a comedian, you always have the shield, but it felt like you had a few cracks in the shield and you allowed people to here in. Before was a little frightening for you you. Know it was hard. You know as a comedian, it's hard to be in on stage and not here laughter. So when I showed that show the special when I showed it to my agents and I said Hey I think I have I have special ready and they came to see you know my one agent was like you have to sit with serious moment longer and let it breathe and I'm like I can't I'm allergic to not having that. Know that instant gratification that comedians are used to you know that's what makes Japan also genius and he doesn't feel the need to go after for the last. He's provoking your thoughts and so it's really hard I mean it was hard for me in that sense to really stick to the moment and let the moment breathe when I talk about my brother because i. Know is emotional and you know you don't get emotional every time. But when you're really present with some things like it shows up in your work know and it was a great lesson and had a be diligent and be be focused you know be focused through the beginning of a set and then taking it all the way to filming the special and to be. Present and not be drunk or wasted. You know to be. You can be a little stoned now that's my thing. But but you know the other stuff is like Oh that's me. You know there's like a new thing happening. So it's fun to share it with people, but it's definitely no I like to walk through challenges I loved to be different you know I. Love to show something different when I'm feeling something different although you have always been someone who is crazy and loud and funny and just like doesn't take anything seriously you've always been really engaged in politics. One of the more interesting political discussions you've got an inch recently was between yourself and fifty cents. You guys have had an interesting relationship over the past few years and. The latest update that I've seen is fifty cent said he will be voting for trump because despite him not doing well with black people and not being grateful that people fifty doesn't want to pay as many taxes you then stepped in and said I'll pay your tax if you if you vote for Joe Biden and then you said and maybe I'll even have six I mean you alluded to it and then fifty came back and responded instead. All right. I'm voting for Biden. I mean this this seems like allies ship on the next level is what you've done here Chelsea handler. Well First, let me say something I spoke to fifty cent last night on the telephone and I'm GonNa tell you all about it but I wanted to apologize for having to say I was reminding him that he was a black man that's inappropriate and I think as an ally I need to set an example by always apologizing when I make a misstep and that was a misstep. That I'm a white woman saying that a black man that's not cool. So I apologize to everyone who was offended by that I will say that if any of my ex boyfriends come out and support of a white supremacist president that we have I am going to call them out on it. So he and I did have a conversation last night on the phone for about. I don't know twenty five minutes, thirty minutes. I just wanted to make sure I. wanted to talk to him about what he tweeted and to see if he was serious because sometimes they tweets things that aren't series as do I and he's not he's supporting buying it. So he was just kind of pissed about the taxes and he we were joking about that. But I, you know we talked about like taxes are you know when you make a lot of money you? Have a big responsibility that's what society is and the way. If you wanted to invade your taxes Republicans, have a whole book about how to do that, and there are many states you can live in to do just that. So it was a very healthy conversation. I did get the impression that he did ask me about taking a little spin as I paraphrased it I said I would be interested in taking another spin because you can't legally pay somebody to vote for someone so. I am open to figuring out another form of payment for him, but he's already invited supporters so I don't really even have to do go down that road. I can safely say that if More politics was engaged with in the way that you have engaged with its politics would not only be a lot healthier more interesting Chelsea. Thank you so much for joining the show. Congratulations on your new special and also I. Think you'll you new place in life? It's wonderful to see you. Thanks Trevor. It's always great to see here. Thank you. Thank you so much Chelsea don't forget Chelsea handler evolution is streaming now on HBO Max. Well, that's our show for tonight everybody. But before we go, remember, we're partnering with World Central Kitchen for their new chefs for the polls program, and what they're doing is really cool. They getting local food trucks, restaurants and caterers owned and operated primarily by people of color to serve food to people who are waiting in line to votes especially in communities where the voting lines are historically longer until tomorrow stay safe out there where mosque and remember don't tear out your neighbor's yard signs just take a pen and explain opposing views on the other side. Let's have a compensation people then we can fight. The. Daily show with criminal ears addition watch the show weeknights at eleven ten central on comedy central and the comedy central. Watch. Full episodes and videos at the daily show dot com follow us on facebook twitter and instagram and subscribe to the feeling show on Youtube for exclusive content and more. This has been a comedy central podcast.
Royce Da 5'9"I Am Bad
"Royster five nine is a brilliant. Mc with one of the sharpest pens in the game but his music and his life really changed when he finally got a handle on his drinking and now his sobriety is something he cherishes. I know when you when you're dealing with quitting in sobriety on and stuff you've got to look inside yourself at like who you are who you really. WanNa be one of the things. I've been thinking about a lot. Is that deep down inside? Most of us are either scared. Angry or sad What in that resonates most for you about yourself I think an anger. Maybe I know when I started going to therapy I started to be able to draw a correlation to a lot of traumatic. Things happen my childhood between my mom and my dad you know and it is the things that I didn't realize bother me as much as they did. You know what I mean so like growing up you. Don't you never get taught how to communicate especially in the black community? No therapy is ninety is not presented to us is any kind of mini or Option you know I mean the White Shit Ya so we we we suppress. We suppress all our failings. And that's our way of dealing with them and then you know like we. We become become masters at taken it and putting it somewhere you know. Whatever whatever their film this put it over there somewhere you know like skit out of the way so. I gotta deal with it so you know like and it it grows. It does as you grow and You know when I decided to start drinking my first drink with Dr Dre at Twenty. I was twenty one. What was IT Was IT. I think it was picardy. I think it was a shot of Bacardi and I say yes because I didn't want to say no you know and I started drinking. You know in it. Didn't I didn't start off super heavy. You know I just you know one day turned into another day. You know like once. I broke the ice with me. Drink it was just like it was easier for me to just be like yeah in the neck when the next situation presented so you know a year pass by two years pass by look up and I'm drinking every single day you know is fine. I'm telling myself is funds. Recreational is fine. We haven't find you know we haven't found. We can figure out a way to have fun. The day itself is based around drinking in the fine. We figured it out after we figure out. What we drink. You know what I mean you know in any gets to a point where it's not fun anymore and then that's when you talk to a therapist and Just like you know. I made so many mistakes I just you I. I'm just tired of making mistakes. I'm just tired tired. You know and then you know we just start asking questions about different things and different things. Start coming out and one thing leads to another. I'm talking about things to happen in my childhood next. You know that's one. I know it affected me more than I thought he did. You know so you yourself can not know things are traumatic to you. You know until you're able to express them and get them off of you and you know once I was able to get a lot of the stuff out. I felt I started to feel better about things I start to feel better about my dad and me and my dad's relationship throughout this whole time has been great. It's been great but I still feel like expressing some of these things in therapy. I'm forgiving him in some sort of way in my mind. I'm forgiving him. Even though he's not coming to me and saying look I apologize. You know what I mean. Because I'm forgiving him but also taken into consideration everything that was on his shoulders you know to the the the hand at cards he was dealt and How difficult it must have been so raise all of us you know like during that time you know what? I'm saying just my parents in general just everything. Being young parents twenty two years old twenty two year old kids you know what I'm saying High school education mom dropped out. My Dad had high school education. You know what I mean like. It's just growing up in the hood you know. He somehow managed to find a way to move us to park which is actually a suburb now. Like a rich suburb anything. We still poor but it puts US somewhere away from banks away from certain things you know what I mean like and I know for a fact that my dad could have definitely did some. He could've could've went the illegal route but he did. And just looking at things like that. In retrospect manages I grow fonder. You grow fonder of your parents you know you. You develop a way better understanding but you noted traumatic as just started traumatic names. Are you close your job with me and my day real close real close? I mean I I think a lot of the Most of the resentment comes from my oldest brother. What do you mean Just a lot of resentment from things. He seemed like when we were when we were younger. You know what I mean. Even him only two years apart He still drinking alcohol. Just like me and you know like East carrying around just a lot of the pain carrying around a lot of pain. You know he he spent and I think a lot of that came from. He got his first felony when he was a teenager and he was enabled to quite shake off to prison system. He was in and out all probably for the next twenty years. Wow you know what I mean. So a lot of he still carrying around a lot of the pain never got a really a chance to really express any of these so it all comes out drinking you know what I mean. It all comes out like funerals or like you know what I mean like any sort of situation where people drinking. That's when that's when it comes out. S when things come out or three four in the morning calling. Somebody's phone. He didn't do this. He didn't do that he was he. Did you know what I mean is I think that's Very familiar snowball effect. You know with two other black families you know what I'm saying. Where's is he now? Your brother your older brother he good. He's he's staying in the city. I talked to him this morning. I talked to him this morning. He's good he's good. He's good he's Still Crazy as hell but he good. He's good you just you just got out of prison. dish this year so Just came home from doing two years And he actually just got a job yet. Actually just got a job. So He's been working a job he seems like he's in pretty good spirits. He was looking at one at interviews. I did with You familiar with clip. Now he's Queens flippy. It's like a it's like a hood who circuit you know. My breath only pays attention to that. I think if you do Queens flips if you ever do Queens v I want you to let me know man because I'm comfortable with you. I WANNA I WANNA be there. So that's the of him for the full hour of me and voice to five nine talking about hip hop sobriety and much more could a patriot dot com slash. Toray show and subscribe and for just five dollars a month. You get eight episodes a month including my interviews with Yadi more stay Malcolm Gladwin Joy Bryant and more Friday patriotic exclusive. You can only get if you subscribe at Patriotair Dot com slash. Talk Show if you can support us at Patriot on it helps keep this show going. Thank you so much.
Introducing The Next Big Idea
"Shifter's is Catherine we are going full speed on season two and we can't wait for you to hear the trailer later this month but in the meantime while you're five thousand miles away in a mid size town in. Switzerland lives another. He enjoys playing lots of different sports basketball handball soccer tennis he not that ten thousand hour rule you may have heard about makes a champion. Malcolm Gladwin popularized the rule in his bestselling book outliers I don't push them towards any particular sport twelve years later at age twenty one he wins his first Grand Slam tennis tournament and then goes on to win but since then David Epstein has challenged the notion in his best selling book range it's a thought provoking discussion about excellence and success starting with come and featuring Malcolm glad well Adam Grant Dan pink and Susan Cain these legendary thought leaders will be your personal idea curator's from business and science over you're listening to this right now you can also find a link in the episode notes enjoy double shifter's will be back before you know it if we raise our kids while you're listening to this preview be sure to subscribe to the next big idea on apple podcasts spotify or sold picks up a club and tries to mimic a swing he's not old enough to understand concepts so his dad draws pictures to show him how to place his hands on the grip to health and culture each week they'll bring you one of their favorite new ideas idea can change the way you live work and think because the right idea skis wrestles and skateboards he dabbles when he's in his teens he decides to spend more time on tennis although he still plays soccer and a few other sports his at the right moment has the power to transform your life you're about to hear an exclusive clip from the next big idea that brings into question whether by fifteen he will win junior Amateur Golf Championship and by twenty one he will become the youngest player ever to win the masters for years regularly leads the boy at a local golf course in the morning to practice and picks him up at the end of the day by fourteen he's put thousands of hours learning how to drive. PUTT at slice two clubs almost as tall as he is packed inside to other guests on the show Bob Hope and Jimmy Stewart look on as the boy tease out and then sends a golf ball nineteen more so nice to share this moment and thanks to everybody woods will be the most dominant Golfer in the world but no one is surprised at such great players started playing so early or that he was laser focused on his California when he's seven months old his father buys the boy a small putter that he drags around in his little circular baby walker as he learns to walk at ten at age two and a half the boy appears on a popular television talk show producer set up a putting green and then the toddler comes out with a miniature golf bag draped over his shoulder two of the best athletes of their generation two very different paths to greatness tiger had an early start tens of thousands of hours of practice went from Tigers Roger had range in had far more than ten thousand hours of practice under his belt it makes sense that's how champions are made or are they a curator Malcolm glad well is going to speak about with David Epstein Epstein has written a fascinating new book on exactly what makes Roger Federer's journey idea with the power to change the way you see the world from one degree I'm Rufus Chris Kim and this is the next big idea I founded the next big idea club along with authors Malcolm glad well Susan Cain the uh-huh Pink Adam Grant to connect people to some of the boldest new thinking shaping our culture and our future each week on the podcast we bring you one uh a boy is born in a mid sized town in northern indicate training and singular focus everything a world class athlete is supposed to have but roger had something tiger didn't something that our next big success and whether successes assured more from focusing deeply on one thing or from having a range of experiences the story you heard at the top of the talking about I can't stop talking about it for two reasons first it says the future belongs to generalists not specialists if you didn't start swinging careening across the state tests with Mr Hope to fucking we'll let him first at age for his dad obvious book the Sports Gene was a New York Times bestseller since he was published in May range has become a pop psychology phenomenon the book every CEO was but seven months this is good news it's a message of hope for those of us who are improvisers samplers Dilettantes hacks apparently we've been onto something all along and second and this week we're taking a new look at the science it almost completely rejects the premise one of the most beloved pop psychology books of the last two decades Malcolm glad wells outliers for those who haven't read it that was from a book called range why generalist triumph in a specialized world the author is David Epstein he's a senior writer at sports illustrated and his pre widespread that Gladwin even gets name checked in rap songs like this one by Macklemore called ten thousand hours Outliers was the book that famously spread the idea that you need to put in ten thousand hours of practice to become great a specific discipline the idea has become the bowie meets with all the heat surrounding this debate we thought wouldn't it be great to get these guys in the same room and just have them talk it out so here they are live from the Ninety Second Street Y David Epstein the author of range and the author of outliers our own next big idea curator view of the next big idea to listen to the rest subscribe to the next big idea on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you're listening right now well known one unknown Yeltsin story we're in love with the tiger model if I pulled the audience would say tiger implicity is the model that leads Malcolm glad well so we have these two two of the greatest athletes of the last fifty years represent diametrically opposed models of development looking around for new podcast to keep you company while you wait I want to tell you about wondering new podcast the next big idea hosted by Rufus no that's true that is that is that is very true that ideas that you started became outrageous in other hands in many cases but but in terms of whereas I think to steal it's dramatic it's incredibly dramatic there's video on Youtube at age two it makes a ton of intuitive sense it's very easy for a prescription to tell people and I think as you said off though because it's also clear that Tiger pays an extraordinary price for his precautionary that was just greatness you're arguing no it's Roger Model why I wouldn't think I've never understood is why did we fall in love with a target model and not like the Roger Model best with precautionary right you said these child prodigy videos are human cat videos and I think that's true I'm mad I didn't think of that line for my book is that a is that a mm-hmm we need us fall in love with the tiger model don't blame me you're not write a book about. I just didn't want to find.
Malcolm Gladwell Explores the Overlooked and Misunderstood
"This is kick. ASS News. I'm Ben Mathis. Folks I'm very excited for today's podcast because my guest is someone I've been wanting to have on the show for quite some time. Now Malcolm glad well is one of the great thinkers of our time, a man with a remarkably wide range of interests than an inquisitive nature that have served him very well in his quest to dig for the hidden truths that often escape us the author of. Of six New, York Times bestseller. He has explored how ideas spread in his book. The tipping point decision making in blink the roots of success in outliers, the advantages of disadvantages in David and Goliath and why our interactions with people we don't know often go wrong in talking to strangers. He's also the host of one of my personal favorite podcasts, revisionist history, which examines the way the passage of. Of Time changes and enlightens our understanding of the world around us. Revisionist history goes back and reinterprets the events, people and ideas from the past to discover something overlooked or misunderstood, because as Malcolm gladwin likes to say sometimes the past deserves a second chance. Now. The new season of revisionist history explores everything from the true value of the objects. We collect to the controversial military tactics of the Pacific. Pacific theater during World War Two to how Malcolm glad well hires his assistance revisionist history season five premieres this Thursday June eighteenth, and I encourage you to subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts today. Malcolm glad well joins me on the show to talk about his childhood, growing up in a Mennonite community and Ontario Canada his briefly tation with conservatism in his youth and how his father's. Curiosity inspired him to always ask questions we delve into the black lives matter protests in the wake of the tragic George, Floyd murder, and a few surprising parallels between the COPS relationship with African Americans and Britons handed approach to Irish Catholics. During the three decade conflict known as the troubles, then Malcolm Discusses podcasts as the antidote to our modern quick hit news culture. He reveals how often he is surprised by what he discovers while making podcast or writing a book, and he shares some of his favourite episodes. Episodes of revisionist history including the time he confronted the law school. Admission Council about the effectiveness of the L. Sat as a predictor of who will make a good lawyer, and why he's now branding art museums as hoarders and challenging them to part with some of their treasures last Malcolm. Glad well on his obsession with a certain nineteen th century, Russian poet, and how quarantine has put a real monkey wrench in his writing routine, coming up with the brilliant and delightful. Malcolm glad well in just a moment. I'm glad well is journalists, speaker and the author of six. New York Times bestsellers the point blink outliers. What the dog saw David and Goliath and talking to strangers, he has also been a staff writer for the New Yorker since nineteen. ninety-six foreign policy has three times named him one of their top global thinkers, and he has been named one of Time's one hundred most influential people. He is also the CO founder and president of Pushkin Industries which produces a number of excellent podcasts, including Malcolm's own podcast revisionist history, which is about to come out with its fifth season. June, Eighteenth Malcolm! Glad, well welcome, thank you. Lied to to. Will, Malcolm I am such a huge fan of your work, and I have to tell you your books and your podcast have literally rewired my brain in a way that I now question my assumptions about so many things. It's made me really frankly annoying parties, because someone will always make statement or I'll make a statement and catch myself and then I I make everyone sit there while I, break it down to see if it holds up, and of course you know seventy eighty percent of those cases, the assumption ends up being correct in the end and I've just wasted everyone's time. Never wasted to. I have to ask. Has that always been an aspect of your personality that need to question things and not just take the accepted narrative or the quote, unquote common wisdom as fact. Well I guess a little bit, but I feel like all of us. When. We're young do that naturally. We ask why we want explanations. We want the expedition to make sense we don't understand. You know the. We don't, we're not docile in the face of new information. When we're young, it's only we only get Dawson when we're older and so I, just feel like I'm maybe I'm just perennially. The eleven year old at heart. I never I never left that stage. The more you do that, the more you become aware that the story banana below the surface is very often different. Richer or interesting and the story on the surface, and so that's why I kept doing because it struck me, they were real rewards. Keep asking questions and I know that your dad was I believe a math professor and your mother was a psychotherapist. Were they particularly encouraging of that questioning and sort of that contrarian streaking you? Yeah I mean they would just open minded. I think that's the better way it wasn't. They actively encouraged it, but their notion was that. Part of what it meant to be. A thoughtful person was to. Find out things. Keep your mind open to new My father was someone who. I was as a kid by just how reading a really profound way. His mind was open. You could. If you knew more than him about something, you could convince him. He was never going to. Put up barriers to some new bit of knowledge or some. You just thought the world was big, delightful mystery and his job was to use whatever means possible to. to crack this mystery. Yeah, I love that because it sounds like he, he didn't believe in such a thing as a dumb question, and he had no ego about probing and probing until he finally understood something in fact, I once heard. You say that. If your dad ever met Bernie Madoff, he would've asked so. Many questions that made off would have had to stop the conversation risk getting discovered that. He would've asked him enough questions. They would have gotten somewhere somewhere interesting and important I think. That was A. he was a very powerful role model for me, but you know it takes a certain amount of. An easy thing to do that's why I think. It was so important that I had that. person in my life who could show me? You have to set your own ego aside. You'd be willing to change your mind. Do all kinds of things that are? I think difficult for us. Yeah your mother was she a big influence on you as well. Oh Yeah my mother. So my father died. Musical mother is very much alive And she is. She's her great gift was the other half of my. My current job she's in some. WHOSE EXTRAORDINARY AS A beautiful writer! She's very well-spoken. A. Gift for. Pudding complicated ideas into the pros. You know she was a sig. Example of how to express myself so I had to curiosity on one side and the. And the expression. Of that curiosity on the other. What was your childhood like? I read that you grew up in a mennonite. Community and Ontario now. Are we talking about the horse and Buggies, churning butter, and all that I'll reserve more liberal version. All kinds. All kinds so was interesting was a group in a farming town in southern Ontario. which was one of the centers of? Waterloo county in Ontario is one of the centers of men community and it would be. Modern Mennonites who I would be friends of mine and go to school with WHO You know addressed indistinguishable from the way I did, and then they would be. Our neighbors had no electricity in a horse and buggy and. So. There was a all varieties of mennonites. Mennonites come in the same kind of these as Jews, too. You know there's a range from ultra orthodox to modern form and. That's what my that was the world that I of of Waterloo, county. That's interesting I. Don't think I realized that because I tend to closely associate mennonites with the Amish, but I guess well all Amish Mennonites not mennonites amish I don't think I realize that. There's such a diverse range of men nights out there because you know. The media likes to focus on the novelty of the old order and sort of portrays them as a very closed insular community, but it's nice to hear how welcoming they were outsiders like your family. Profoundly Open I. Remember the Kid. The bandmates would have barn raisings. If someone's barn burned down, they would all gather, and they would put up a new one and you know. Hundreds of them would gather someone's house and my father was. My father you know in his drove his Volvo wearing his father whereas tie, and so he hears his big bearded Englishman driving a Volvo with a tie on, and he just joined the barn raising, and they put him to work I mean no questions asked if. It was not a. it's a kind of it's over. There's a wonderfully open quality about. About about men I every level Are you know by? That was great friends with our older Mennonite neighbor spite the fact my father had hd in the neighbor probably didn't go beyond. Six grade they. They had a grand time. Yeah, so that was. That's a reflection both about my dad on and also about Mennonites. Sounds like an idyllic childhood and the kind of sense of community that's harder and harder to find these days I love your dad could just roll up his sleeves and pitch in on a barn, raising it must have been a wonderful place to grow up and actually I have no I had to least traumatic childhood imaginable. And I and I had I wonder if people whose teenage years were just a delight I I had a blast as a teenager I missed the whole. I missed the memo on teenage angst. didn't didn't didn't really hit me and Malcolm I tend to think of you as a fairly progressive guy but I was kind of amused to read that. I guess when you were fifteen. You Co edited a right wing pamphlet influenced by William F, Buckley to quote counter Canadian, left wing dominance. Conservative in your youth well that just you playing the contrary in there. No I was largely contrarian, but remember to be conservative in Canada in the nineteen seventies would put you. In America today we would call that liberal. Right the Canadian. The Times was so skewed to the left, and Canada was so skewed to the left that I. You know I may have called my Selfo Conservative, but today I'd be on the level, the left the left side of a left, leaning side of the Democratic Party if we were going to do a reanalysis, but yeah the only. If you wanted to rebel if you're a teenager, you want to rebel in Canada in Nineteen, seventy eight. You know choice but to become conservative. There was no room to rebel on the left. The, the prime minister was hanging out with Fidel Castro. To give you a sense of where you were. Even Bill Buckley wouldn't find much of a home in Donald Trump's Republican party today. No, he'd be horrified well I'm jumping around a little bit, but I definitely want to talk to you. About the recent protests in the wake of the George Floyd murder, you've addressed race and particularly the difficult relationship between law enforcement and African Americans in many of your writings, and on your podcast revisionist history in response to the. The murder of George Floyd and the protests you released an interesting podcast episode containing an Audio Chapter From Your Book David and Goliath and I say it's interesting because it focused on Britain's heavy handed approach to dealing with Irish Catholics in Belfast during the troubles, there was no racial component to that story at all. Would you feel could be applied to the current situation? Yeah, so I've written. You're right. I've written. In three of my books, three of my books have been at least partially. Or almost wholly. built around I episodes of police violence against African Americans. The climactic chapter blink was about the SH. The shooting of Amadeo Dal and African immigrant by the NYPD. David and Goliath del link with the civil. Rights Movement and With. The chapter you referring to chapter about the troubles in Northern Ireland and then talking to strangers was of course organized around. The Sandra Bland the black woman who stopped by a police officer in Texas so. I've done a lot of the question was when oldest started after the death of George Floyd, the question was. was there something that I felt I could? Put Out in the world that would make help. People make sense and I decided that I had written this chapter in David Glass about the origins of the troubles in Northern Ireland the battles between. The Protestant Catholics in Northern Ireland are consumed. Much of the end of the sixties and the seventies and early eighties and There was a chapter I had done about a riot. That had happened in an area of Belfast lower falls. That is considered to be the real beginning of the of fifteen years of. OF SOCIAL TURMOIL And it's all about how the police responded to. A member of Oppressed minority and overreacted used force and. And because they had not, they lacked legitimacy in the eyes of the people they were policing. It led to. A spiraling violence and protests, and and I thought that was. Even though it. You're right had nothing to do with race. I thought it was useful though just to remind people that. These questions of police legitimacy are things that many cultures have wrestled with. And many cultures have. Failed at. And there. Are you know sometimes I think? Americans tend to be a little insular. And to assume that all their own, all of our problems are unique to us. And while that's true. In some part there's also the question of how police ought to behave is something many people have wrestled with and we. You know we would be useful to kind of bring up. This example of it's eerily is funny. I was reading to the. Twitter comments afterwards after I posted. Funny how many people said You know I? It was odd to me, but I listen to that and I realized Oh my goodness. What a parallel! What a close parallel! What we're going through now I'm can be found in a story from the late sixties in. In Belfast. Yes, surprising parallels, but very apt I thought, and I appreciate your ability to get these larger Mecca nations at play, and the power dynamics behind situations like this. Because you know Malcolm in my heart of hearts I tend to believe that most police officers probably aren't genuine racist than don't go into this just to beat up innocent black kids. The majority of cops I imagine are pretty good people. Just the way that most people are generally decent. Things so if in spite of the bad apples you have not all, but a majority of cops who are pretty decent people and not racist, but the majority of African American see them as bad and sincerely feel targeted and discriminated against. How do we begin to account for that Nasim? Yes you know the that's that Chapter I posted. I was talking a little bit about this about. This notion of What it means to restore legitimacy and genesee comes from. Very, specific things in the. Legitimacy is drawn from. The the kind of Institutional and social arrangements of society so when I have a grievance do I think I can air it and be heard? If I don't think that. If I, don't think someone's listening. When I have a complaint, then all of a sudden, I believe in the system takes a massive step backwards. You know there's other. Go into all other components of that's probably the most important of it, so there are things like you know it takes a. It takes a while to restore it, but there are very. These are basic principles that I think we can all apply pretty. Easily and People don't communities do not react in anger for no reason. That's I. Think the most important thing that it's not you know the the knee-jerk reaction that I can't stand. To. protests or even riots is. The notion that the people who are upset they've generated that anger themselves all that anger was always there, and they're just letting up. Seem they're taking advantage of the situation now when people? Rise up against authority, there's generally a deep 'cause, and if you're in a position of authority, you need to pay attention to those deep causes. And that's I. Think what we were seeing in in the aftermath of up. George Floyd his. Anger that has been simmering for a very long time based on some very powerful things that are amiss with American democracy. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll return with more when we come back in just a moment. Imagine yourself with the doctorate at the top of your field. You could be teaching, researching or making a bigger impact in your community, a doctorate can be a big investment in time or in money, but did you know that you earn a degree from Capella City through a flexible program? From enrollment to graduation, and beyond you'll be guided every step of the way. Capella has over twenty five years of online education experience, supporting doctoral students, and they have five thousand dollars, ten thousand dollar and twenty thousand dollar Cappella progress reward scholarships for eligible new students enrolling in select doctoral degree programs, Capella also has financial aid counselors enrollment counselors in career counselors to help you get started. Learn more about the support and resources. You'll have from beginning to end start exploring available programs and scholarship opportunities at Capella dot edu slash doctorate. That's Cappella. Dot Edu slash doctorate. And in your most recent book talking to strangers, you get into that problematic relationship by doing a deep dive into the case of Sandra Bland. If anyone doesn't remember, bland was an African American woman who got pulled over by a white cop and taxes, and was arrested, and then ended up committing suicide in jail I. Think you say that what really happened? There was a case of an officer misreading her social cues, and interpreting it through the very narrow lens of his own experience, and more than that. You say that her suicide was a tragedy of coupling, which is a psychological term. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? Yeah, you know there's. This is one of a number of ideas that I play with talking to strangers in his his idea. That behavior is very often very tightly coupled to a situation. you know they observation for example that suicide use example of suicide and talk a lot about how suicides are very tightly coupled to places in circumstances Lots of people jump to their death off the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco very few people jump to their death off the Of the what's the other big bridge in San Francisco the one that runs across the bay. Bridge. Yes, the bay bridge, you can as easily commit to the bay bridge. Nobody does it. Suicide is coupled for whatever it is syncretic reasons it is associated with. Is enact associated with a a place, and that's why when you make difficult to. Jump off the Golden Gate Bridge the number of suicides, the barrier will fall. People will not just migrate to another bridge. That's a really hard concept for people to grasp, but and the same is true of. Crimes Comma side. Homicides are anchored to place. They take place in the same geographical places year after year after year after year. Knowing where a crime is committed is important in preventing another crime as knowing who committed it. Not. So I. Play that idea and I talk about you know that ought to ought to powerfully informed policing. It means a policing is appropriate in places that are associated with crime. Or kind of policing is appropriate there. That's not appropriate anywhere else. And what happened in America is that we have. used tactics of policing indiscriminately. We've taken stuff that's appropriate in the one percent of places where there's a crime problem and tried to use it in the ninety nine percent of places where there isn't and when you do that, you destroy your legitimacy as a police force a lot of. This miss this. These incidents between the African American community and the law enforcement is about that exact thing that law enforcement is harassing. Nine hundred ninety nine African Americans in order to find one bad apple. And you can't do that. They can just you cannot or do it in a civil society and expect things to go, you must use it your the the power of the state with more discretion, and I love what you're saying there you point out that in the case of Sandra Bland America paused and then moved onto the next thing, and you just weren't content to do that. You are a lover of doing that deep dive and a lot of ways. You run entirely counter to this trend of consuming information and smaller and smaller bites just skimming the surface of an issue regurgitating headlines we see in our feed, and moving from one story or issue before we, there's time to really explore the deeper mechanisms at play the feel, a little bit like a salmon swimming upstream today's culture of quick hit media and short attention spans. I I'm going to take issue with you. Okay because. Think about what we're having right now. We are having. A thoughtful extended conversation. About a complicated topic, where? We're not yelling at each other. You're not looking for some. Outrageous soundbite, which you will then repeat on twitter. Your listeners I don't is a lot of them they they're quite content. I'm sure most of them will listen to the end of this. Not Listen to two minutes and tuning out. You know your stats better than me, but I'm guessing and you're not alone. There are lots and lots and lots of people now. Doing podcasts and various other forms who are doing these thoughtful things I. Think the culture has shifted. I think there is an extraordinary appetite now for much more thoughtful examination. My revisions history episodes are there forty five minutes long they require. You gotTA concentrate, and people have no problem finding the time to count you know. Joe Rogan interviews. He's the popular guy in the podcast world. His interviews are two hours or more. So I feel Harry. Does something shifted? I think something shifted. What happened with there was an assumption. That people aren't willing to to have patience to delve into something in detail, and that something was wrong and shows like mine, and yours are proving their that wrong. Yeah and I really WANNA. Talk about this wonderful podcast that you have revisionist history, i. Am such a fan of your podcasts. I'm a huge podcast. Listener myself fact, that's how I got into this. Because I listened to a dozen or more podcasts a week. I cannot tell you how many times your podcast on General Leonard Chapman in the militarization of the border comes up any discussion about immigration. Just the fact that the US spent all of this money trying to prevent undocumented immigrants in their families from permanently settling here and in actually have the opposite effect. We essentially spent billions of dollars to tramp seasonal workers in the US, who otherwise would have been happy to go home to their families and their life in Mexico. The unintended consequences of that policy are startling and I honestly wish that every person in America who is against risk. Listen to that episode. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, no there I mean. It's an opportunity. I look on his episodes as opportunities to to explore the kinds of stories that don't normally get explored. You know here's this wonderful thing where? I get people have willing to give me forty five minutes of their time. and I can send. I can reach them almost effortlessly without any money. Being exchanged anywhere in the world. There on my, they're on their. I'm on their phone. and. It's like this never been. mean. TV's incredibly powerful meeting, but you have to have a TV. You gotta be in front of it. Right radio apart, but a radio. You can give you infinite choice and didn't let you go on. Everything else wasn't one vote well, Abobo. yeah, a book book is great, but because money. I could go on and on and on like this is. Pretty extraordinary form that we've been given, and so my whole idea was wow, I mean I would be a fool to pass up this opportunity to tell stories a different kind of story for people to. Learn from LEMme. Ask you this. Malcolm would you consider to be the guiding principle or the mission statement if you will behind revisionist history? Sings I'm interested in scarborough. Fair enough that's a good reason. Our stated goal is of the show is. You know it's a podcast about the overlooked in the misunderstood, so we're going back over something that had been. Decided and were. That had been put away and we're opening it backup. So in the season for example, I have four episodes about. Curtis Lemay one of the most famous of. The Air Force General's the Second World War and about a specific thing. He does in the summer of forty five And you know that's ancient history in a certain sense. That's seventy years ago. And I WANNA. Go back, and I want to take you back to nineteen forty five and I want you to put you put you in his shoes and I want you to. Think about the problem that he was faced. Years and years ago and decide whether you think he made the right decision. Right! That's very much. That's a quintessential religious history kind of thing. That's the sort of thing I wanNA do. is or another episode is about. I go back and I re interview all of my old assistance. Trying to figure out whether I'm a good. Good Hiring And, why what criteria used for hiring? That's another it's it's. That was a lot more fun now heavy, but again unlike China ask I'm trying to get. It's really important question which is. How much can you know about somebody through an interview? I happen to think not a lot, and but it's pretty fun where to get people thinking about something as a part of their life, and and I think that that touches on something that you talked about in talking to strangers as well which is we often judge applicants on the least important criteria for a job. No, I get. I have two shows in the season revisions history that get into this puzzle of. Why is it was so sure? Of Others based on these relatively. Trivial encounters with him. It was sort of eye opening experience for you to go back and sit down with all of your I. Think you say you change assistance every two years so this must be a pretty long list at a lot of them, and can get to the the reasons why you hired them. Whether those were necessarily all valid reasons for hiring someone willing was done in a very lighthearted and I liked them all. There are really fun so mostly. It was just hilarious to. Chat with them about things that happened years ago. And get their you know I'd never asked them systematically about experience of working for me, the experience of being hired by me so just like kind of like you learn all kinds of things about yourself that you wouldn't know. Otherwise is one of my. It's one of the most fun. Episodes of the season. We try to mix up. Serious ones would not so serious. That has one of the not so serious wins Yeah I listen to the first two episodes of season five, in which you tackle, the massive collections of objects owned by art museums, many of which will never see the light of day, and you actually call them art museums hoarders. You're really poking the beast with this one, or are you ready to be ostracized by the art world? I think the opposite will happen, which is really I? Suspect a lot of people in the world. agree with me Oh, yeah! The museum businesses spiraled out of Control, and so it will cause less. Less controversy than then one might imagine but Yeah, I was. I was just I'm just interested in the relationship. We have to objects. and. That's obviously an issue with individuals who are orders and were not. But it's also an an issue for institutions. They also become attached to things in ways. That may not be healthy. And so I thought it'd be really fun to kind of do. An investigation of the relationships that are museums have with their art. Yes, so many art institutions operate on a loss which is completely needless, because as you point out, they could easily sell a painting or two and be in the black. But if you dare suggest that a museum do that, they look at you as if you painted a mustache on the Mona Lisa something well, they get sanctioned. If you. Painting Museum and you sell raining and you don't use the proceeds to buy another painting. You to sell it for your general economic well-being, you'll be sanctioned by the American Association of Museums whatever it's called. So there's an active. Ethic in the business which tries to get people to? to look on the the ownership of art by museum as Permanent Thing Museum must hold that piece of art in perpetuity. Which I think is insane I mean completely insane. While I imagine that part of the problem is also the donors, because perhaps they have a painting or a sculpture that's been in their family for a long time, and maybe they have a sentimental attachment to it. And they don't want to donate it to an art institution only to find out that it was sold off to pay for janitorial services or employees to work in the gift shop. That sort of thing well, museums need to reorient themselves. You know right now very often. They are serving the interests of. Their powerful. Of the people who donate money and paintings to them, and that's not who they're they should be serving should be serving the public right. Their nonprofits right, whose job is to showcase culture, and when they start thinking that they're first, obligation is to please the. Rich Guy who just died and left them five COSCO's than they've lost their way, but I do think I've heard that it's beginning to change as museums feel the pinch from covid nineteen I wonder if that might be the thing that might make them part with some of their treasures now. Yeah, that's really I mean we're about to find out in a million different ways. How many of our rituals and practices do not stand up to scrutiny time of crisis? We're going to expose I. Feel like a lot of patterns and practices has being irrational. Yeah in dealing with so many of these institutional issues like art museums. For me, so many of the big questions in our society come down to two things. Does it in? Is it right and sometimes it works isn't right or vice versa, but then there are those issues like mass incarceration, and how our system of higher education operates where the system doesn't work, and it's immoral and I know higher. Education is of particular interest to you. You I always wonder. Why are these problems so fraught? When the solution to right in front of our eyes, it ought to be a no brainer. It would sink well except that the institutions who need to change have no incentive to do so by most of the the winners in the higher education game. have zero incentive to one a mess system there. You know. The Ivy Leagues and Stanford, and all those places. They they're. they're profiting from the the kerm. kind of pathology. Why would they want to fix it? And really hard by the way to fix that system without the cooperation of the strongest institutions in the system. Why? Why health such a mess! Because most to the most powerful players in healthcare system have zero incentive to change that goes to the. This time honored. Problem facing reformers which. The. Only way to reform is to get people who are outside the system. To join you and yet they're the ones who have the least cloud right the least ability to make a change sure speaking of reforming higher education I have to tell you I just loved your episode where you confronted the organization that administers the L. Sad. About how terrible time to test is as a predictor of who would make a good attorney. It's almost if they're selecting people who have the exact opposite of the qualities, you WanNa, know Voyeur, we have fun with. I me and my sister took took. took the LSAT and compared. Yes, and and then we went to see the people who organized a test that was. It was last things those were really fun. I always remember that with great fondness those. Episodes shivering outside at seven am in the morning outside the. Place Downtown Manhattan where I take my l. set now. Did you and your assistant really achieved the same score on the L. set? Yes, according what a coincidence according to the to the testing agency main. Yeah, we up at the same time and low behold. We'd exactly the same score, so that should tell you something. Is convinced she was going to destroy me. That was enormously gratified. Yeah! Much younger and smarter than I am so I was like I'm a dead, but. Somehow veteran savvy and they'd have percent of that difference. How do you approach a new season of revisionist history? Because in some ways? It seems like it's similar to your books in that. You use a series of small stories strung together to make a larger point. Yeah, that tends to come together I. Mean They don't all? Not Not all the shows are on the same theme. So. but they often lung this healthcare kind of a thread. Yeah, they often is a contract that runs through some of them many of them, but it's very done I. my mind tends to work that way. Pick up on a theme and then I elaborate on it and so. But it's not. One thing, that's very important to me. In the in the revisionist history seasons is, they should be all over the map they should be. It should be funny. One sad ones. This should be angry. Ones there should be, you should know. Before you begin a revisionist history episode. You should know what experience you're going to have. It should come as a surprise shouldn't be able to predict. How you feel at the end, yeah, that's my goal and Malcolm. I wonder if that sense of the unexpected applies to you and your own process as well when you write a book or start a podcast episode, d ever enter it with a certain ending or takeaway in mind, but when you start to peel away at those layers you find that your own assumptions don't. Or a story that you thought was about one thing leads you down an entirely different. And turns out to be about something that you hadn't even considered. Yeah, happens a lot back. That's I often. What draws me to ideas is the possibility that it will? Change my mind That's a big issue for me I so relish. Learning, I was wrong. I feel like that's when you've succeeded as a human being when you managed to prove yourself wrong and so I seek out those kinds of situations where I can. Disprove overturn previous. Yeah, yeah, I always say I'd rather be wrong than right because if I'm right. I haven't learned anything. For me, it does nothing couldn't agree more. Yeah, well. You have really jumped in with both feet into podcasting not only. Do you have your own podcast? But you co-founded with Jacob Weitzberg, and other previous guests of the show company that produces a number of podcast called Pushkin Industries. Why did you decide to name your company? After nineteen, th century Russian poet well shoot answer is. For, whatever reason I'm obsessed the push pin everything life is named after Pushkin right down to the first dog as a kid we had my family was called Pushkin. So I just I just think it's a lovely. I Love Pushkin the poet, but also I think the name sounds. Tasmania. It's one of those words that comes after tongue. In love away and so yeah and I don't know. He just seems like a great person to make as your travel, you could do worse assures. Yes, he is the patron saint of our credit presence before we go I have to ask how if you've been dealing with the quarantine because I've heard that you do most of your writing almost exclusively in public places like what starbucks? And stuff like that. You you like the dinner, no Moore's Asian Yeah. I've moved to I'm now I live upstate and they have a little guest house I just turned that into my office. Okay, and now I right now I. write in solitude with. That's music on the background and that substitutes for conversation in the background so I'm adapting but. Once things up I will return to my coffee houses. Or once more season five of Malcolm's fantastic podcast revisionist history debuts on June eighteenth Malcolm, where can people listen listening bobble PODCASTS spotify? Get your podcast terrific, anyway. Terrific well, folks while you're listening right now. Go into your podcast APP and subscribe. He will make you think promise. Malcolm glad well. Thanks for talking with me. Thank you so much. That was really fun. Throw pleasure. Thanks again to Malcolm glad well for coming on the show, subscribe to revisionist history on apple podcasts Google podcasts, spotify, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts or visit revisionist history dot com, you can also keep up with Malcolm at glad. Well Books Dot Com, and on twitter at at glad well. If you enjoyed today's podcast. Be Sure to subscribe to us on Apple podcasts and Raden. Review us while you're there. Five star ratings in detailed reviews are one of the best ways for new listeners to discover the show. You can also follow us on facebook or on twitter at at kick, ASS news pod and recommend us to your friends on your social media for more fun stuff, visit, kick, ASS news, Dot Com, and I welcome your comments, questions and suggestions at comments at kick ASS news dot com for now. I'm Ben Mathis and thanks for listening to kick ASS news.
Introducing The Next Big Idea
"We live in a fast paced rapidly changing world science technology and society are all on a march forward into the future and no one is sure what's coming but we got some good guesses wondering has a new podcast called the next big idea and it's all about thinking bigger creating better and living smarter hosted by Rufus any election American elections wicked game is out now subscribed today on Apple podcasts spotify or wherever you're listening right now also find a link in the episode notes next big idea is right while you're listening to this preview be sure to subscribe to the next big idea on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you're listening to this right now you can with a miniature golf bag draped over his shoulder to clubs almost as tall as he is packed inside to other guests on the show. Bob Hope and Jimmy Stewart makes a champion Malcolm Gladwin popularize the rule in his bestselling book outliers but since then David Epstein has challenged the notion in his bestselling book range so which often culture each week they'll bring you one of their favourite new ideas ideas that can change the way you live entirely open your mind and get ready for something big because the right at age for his dad regularly leads the boy at a local golf courses in the morning to practice and pick him up at the end of the day by fourteen he's put in Walker as he learns to walk at ten months old he picks up a club and tries to mimic a swing he's not old enough to understand concepts so his dad draws Dan Slam tennis tournament and then goes on to win nineteen more so nice to share this moment and things to everybody or are they five thousand miles away in a mid sized town in Switzerland lives another he enjoys playing lots of different a boy is born in a mid size town in northern California when he's seven months old his father buys the boy a small potter but he drags around in his little circular baby thousands of hours learning how to drive hot at slice by fifteen he will win the junior Amateur Golf Championship and by twenty one he will become the youngest player not at the right moment has the power to transform your life you're about to hear an exclusive clip from the next big idea that brings into question whether or not the ten thousand hour rule really still plays soccer and a few other sports his parents don't push them towards any particular sport twelve years later at age twenty one he wins his first two of the best athletes of their generation two very different paths to greatness tiger sure is to show him how to place his hands on the group at age two and a half the boy appears on a popular television talk show producer set up a putting green and then the toddler comes out early or that he was laser focused on his sport and had far more than ten thousand hours of practice under his belt it makes sense that's how champions are made or to win the masters for years Tiger Woods will be the most dominant Golfer in the world but no one is surprised that such a great player started playing so the tiger didn't something that our next big idea curator Malcolm glad well he's going to speak about with David Epstein Epstein has written a fascinating new book on exactly what makes Roger Federer's journey different from Tigers Roger had range I had an early start tens of thousands of hours of practice dedicated training and singular focus everything a world class athlete is supposed to have but roger had something awards basketball handball soccer tennis he also skis wrestles and skateboards he dabbles when he's in his teens he decides to spend more time on tennis although he on the boy tees up and then sends a golf ball careening across the stage cutting contests with Mr Hope Guinea to Oh yes okay we'll let him first from one degree I'm rufisque riskin and this is the next big idea I founded the next big idea clubs along with Authors Malcolm glad well Susan Cain Daniel Pink and Adam grant to connect people to some of the oldest new thinking shaping our culture and our future each week on the podcast we bring you one idea with the power to change the way you see the world this week we're taking a new look at the science of success and whether successes assured more from focusing deeply on one thing or from having a range of experiences the the store you heard at the top of the show is from a book called range wide generalists triumphant a specialize world the author is David Epstein and he's a senior writer at sports illustrated and his previous book the Sports Gene was a New York Times bestseller since it was published in May range has become a pop allergy phenomenon the book every was talking about I can't stop talking about it for two reasons first it says the future belongs to generalists I'm not specialists if you didn't start swinging a golf club at seven months this is good news it's a message of hope for those of us who are improvisers samplers dilettantes hacks atwells outliers for those who haven't read it out liars was the book that famously spread the idea that you need to put in ten thousand hours of practice to become apparently we've been onto something all along and second it almost completely rejects the premise one of the most beloved pop psychology books of the last two decades. Malcolm Ten thousand hours David Bowie meets grace with all the heat surrounding this debate we thought wouldn't it be great to get these. Ah Diametrically opposed models of development one well known one unknown Yeltsin story we're in love with the tiger model if I pulled the audience is in the same room and just have them talk it out so here they are live from the Ninety Second Street Y David Epstein the author of range and the author of rated a specific discipline the idea has become so widespread that glad well even gets name checked in rap songs like this one by Malcolm more calls days when political parties worked together politicians put country over party well it turns out those days never existed it's time to rethink what you thought fires and our own next big idea curator Malcolm glad well so we have these two two of the greatest athletes of the last fifty years represent in many cases but in terms of Tiger I think to steal dramatic it's incredibly dramatic there's video of him on Youtube at age two it makes a ton of intuitive sense it's very easy for awesome and featuring Malcolm glad well Adam Grant Dan Pink and Susan Cain these legendary thought leaders will be your personal idea curator's from business and science to how wherever you're listening right now in November of twenty twenty citizens of the United States will cast ballots his precautions that was just a preview of the next big idea to listen to the rest subscribe to the next big idea on apple podcasts spotify is to elect their president with feelings of political polarization at an all time high though many are dreading another year of outrage animosity can't we just go back to the good old description to tell people I think as you said we're obsessed with precautionary right you said these child prodigy videos or human cat videos and I think that's true and I'm mad I didn't think of that line for my book. Donald Trump surprise victory in two thousand sixteen each episode will feature the truth behind all fifty eight of America's elections in the fifty eight weeks we have leading up to the twenty fall in love with a target model and not like the Roger Model. We say you need US fall in love with the tiger model don't believe me I I I'd say tiger implicitly is is the model that leads to greatness your argument no it's the Roger Model why it doesn't I don't think I've ever understood why did what you knew about presidential politics with a new wondering podcast American elections wicked game from the unanimous election of George Washington in seventeen eighty nine write a book about that no no no that's true that is that is very true that ideas that you started became outrageous in other hand and is that an is that enough though because it's also clear that Tiger pays extraordinary price for his.
Against the Rules Presents: Michael Lewis in Conversation with Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg
"The hi everyone. It's michael lewis. I'm very proud and honored to present you. This bonus episode which is part of dell technologies. Small business podcasts. So we know how many small businesses are now grappling with the impact of these uncertain times and looking for resources but a lot of the conferences where people trade ideas. Those are cancelled right now. So dell technologies has organized something. They're calling a pot. Fritz for small business owners like a virtual conference to share advice and some inspiration dell technologies is here to help you through these times from keeping you connected and productive while working remotely with windows ten and microsoft teams to providing relevant content to help your business to find more participating. Podcasts search dell technologies. Small business podcast on radio dot com spotify or apple podcasts. At the end of this episode. I was asked to moderate a panel with two of my oldest friends. Malcolm gladwin jacob weisberg. We've known each other since the nineteen eighties when we were all young writers in the magazine. Business malcolm jacob for now the co founders of pushkin industries. The company that produces against the rules which is now underway by the way pushkin also makes a bunch of other great shows like malcolm zone revisionist history and the happiness lab with dr lori. Santos i've been watching on the sidelines over the past year as malcolm and jacob started the company so i was really happy to have an excuse to ask them all kinds of nosy questions about what they've learned about running a business together and the challenges they face and the challenges right now in our quarantine world will those are unique. You'll get to hear a little bit about that. Here's our conversation. 'cause i don't actually know the story so i would love to know how you decided to start pushing shake right. It was jacobs a star. Well i'd started one podcast company already. Which was panoply which came out of slate but as things evolve panoply turned into a technology company. I thought i was starting mainly a content company and one of the shows we'd started with revisionist history With malcolm that show was doing really well and there were some other shows. I was really interested in doing so was sort of when the earlier company under Ceo i'd hired. Who i thought was making a good decision. Wanted to make a pivot that i said. Hey maybe it's time that document. I started our own company and only do what we wanna do. I was on holiday with my family in. Can't remember where. I was somewhere in your italy in italy and jacob was in some. I think if i can tell that you truly horrible health live the villain said and he said he said that he he summoned. We do something crucial when you talk about says. I drove halfway across italy. Show up in this horrible house but road and then he likes sat outside a little chairs and had coffee and he said i wanna start a company. That's out began. What did you say yes right away. Yeah struck me as well. The backstory about this is that jacob has been. I've known jacob for thirty five years and through for some significant portion of this. I would always say jacob. I don't know why you wanted a journalist. You'd be a really great businessman. if you just. This is what you could make a huge amount of money. We could all get rich. Jacob forgotten but i would always worry that if i when i said that i was insulting him because what he really wanted to be was a writer which was saying was a bad writer and i thought better business fan so i i remember you saying this thirty years ago And so. Jake is a wonderful journalist but agreed it. He's they sort of a natural for this sort of thing. He's got the temperament for it. Unlike you your i but you know what we would surprise me the thing take you back even a little further. It surprised me that you to went off on this podcast jag. In the first place. You both had very happy successful careers in the print world. Why did you decide that you wanted to do something different. You know michael. I've gotten the bug really in the early days of podcasting at slate were sort of because of a random connection with an npr show. Slate had been working on. We started making some of the first podcast. Anybody listened to and everybody had slate. All the journalists love doing them and there was this little audience small at first but growing that just love them and the giveaway was that everybody at slade. Who didn't have a podcast wanted podcast. And they were just a joy to do. So you know. I'm a little evangelical about things. I get excited about and i tried to talk malcolm into doing one and i tried to talk you into doing what and i ultimately talk both view into doing it. I talked to at first. And then i think The fact that he was doing it may have helped to persuade you. It was worse than that. You got malcolm to lie to me and say it was easy. You lied but that's all right. We'll have i forgive you so you're too old friends. Go into business together. How's it working out. Like how do you find working with each other. You surprised by anything. You finding things out about each other that you didn't know that you wish you didn't know we'll i. I'm reminded of a Years ago i wrote a piece that was really about my friendship with jacob. It was about the idea that what's called Collective memory which is that. We outsource a lot of the things we know to. Our friends and family and i was reading about this. Because jacob jacob is someone who i respect trust so much that significant parts of my knowledge and cognition are simply outsource to jacob. I was saying i knew longer. Read anything about politics or try and figure out about politics. I simply ask jacob what he thinks and adopt those ideas as my own. That was my position. And i was sort of a joke. But it's actually true. It's just a way better way to live your life to make to point sued experts in your friendship circle and outsource everything to them. Do the same thing with my brother and wine and take a long so this is in business. I've just applied this principle. Which is just let him do all the things that i know. He's better at me. And since that's rattle longlist means my life is very easy so there is that true jacob is there. Are you basically running the business in malcolm's decoration. No i wouldn't say that. I mean i handle more of the day to day as they say but honestly at this point more. The ideas come from malcolm. And that's that's a bit of an adjustment. Because i've always thought of myself as the idea person but i'm like a good idea week person. Malcolm's like a five good idea. Day person and so big part of my job now is just like being. Malcolm's filtered try to talk him out of some of the ideas and then try to figure out how some of the others can can happen But these are ideas for shows. He's our ideas for shows. He's ideas for new businesses. Malcolm a lot of ideas and the typical day is you know about eleven. Am he'll call me and say this is so much fun. We really don't want to get too big too fast. Let's keep it just like it is and i say yes malcolm. I totally agree with that. This is the good part. Let's let's not grow too fast. And then after lunch he'll call me and he all right. I've got three ideas and each of them would involve like adding like ten new staff members. And so we did. If we pursued all of our ideas we'd have six hundred people right now instead of twenty five and That's kind of a tension. It's not attention in that. Malcolm i disagree about. I think we're both pulled in both directions liking having a small business. Where were we know everybody. And it's sort of close like a family and we control everything but then all this opportunity and all these good ideas we wanna to pursue. I'm in these conversations. Are you able to see the possibility of a really big business or do you think it's naturally better as a small business. You've hit on the the hard part you know. I think we see that we do see the opportunity to be big. I mean i don't know when you say really big. I mean it's not. I don't think it's i don't think it's google big. I don't think it's facebook. Big but in the world of podcasting. I think it has the potential to be really pay-setting and dominant But we also want to be really really choosy and have everything we make really represent what we're interested in and the quality level we we've set so far so you know. I think it's just kind of working out of those. Two things will result in the right size. I honestly don't know what the right size is. We're going to get bigger. It's just a question of how fast we're going to get bigger malcolm. Yeah i think what occurred to. I think all of us very quickly in this project experiment is that we're not really in the podcast business. We're you know it's a cliche. We're in the storytelling business. And we happen to want to tell stories to audio. But that means you can compete against all kinds of like we re is no reason why we can't behave like a book publisher in many respects Is just that our books are on our audio not on page once you realize that. Well look at book publishers. There really big. I mean they have thousands of employees have. So you know. Concede that way you won't you think of yourself as being into podcasts world. You you might think of yourself as being pretty small if you think of yourself as just as using a different medium to tell stories that there's no reason why you can't be really big so to all appearances. This thing has been an incredible success. And it's been really fun. Make a podcast for you. I'm curious what troubles you've had especially like Given the pandemic how you've had to adjust and respond and and how much difficulty is introduced in your business. Well we're we've all been improvising in various ways. I think we feel very lucky in that. What we make is is make a ball. Under these circumstances people set up recording studios at home and we have meetings virtually. I don't know that we could have done this. With the digital tools that existed ten or fifteen years ago i mean things like zoom and then slacked and google hangouts in cher drives Seem so essential to long distance. Collaboration in a way they've arrived just in time and it's sort of the moment for those tools we can make our shows and luckily we work with writers of caliber starting with you and malcolm who can use their writing to adapt what they're doing if there's an interview that you were gonna do for your season this year michael and you can't do it. You can write your way out of it That's not a position. A tv producer is usually. I mean if you have physical production that requires people to be in a group in a place. It's just gotta be suspended podcast. We can we can still make it. It's not all been easy but people have been incredibly flexible and nimble about how we're still going to get these shows done with this new challenge. So it's funny. I'm about to. I've got five of my seven episodes for this soon in the second season done. But i've got. I've got one that really did require me. I thought require me to go out onto the road. And i'm not able to do it and you said to me you know you can write your way around this and this weekend. I'm about to find out whether dad. And and i'm kind of wondering if you think that's really true i mean what do you think i what i'm thinking is just generally when you're thrown this kind of This kind of curve ball Look her ball and you hit it that you try to turn it into a strength And you see what you can do it given that given the constraint but but there's apartment thanks in my voice podcast producer saying we need scenes. We need scenes and now you can't really get those scenes D does it. Does it trouble that trouble at all. You think that maybe these could be better this way. Well i i tend to share your view that the constraint provokes creativity and you often end up with something that's better and more interesting than what you would have had otherwise but not always you know. Luckily i think for a number of our shows. We had a lot of the field reporting the interviews under our belt. And so we're more at risk of losing like twenty percent of what we wanted. If we hadn't done any then it's would be harder to make these shows. You'd have to conceive them in a different way of their dependent on vivid scenes. Where the where were you as. The journalist is physically present. Do you think it's going to change the way when this is over and you can go back to doing it the way you think you'll go back to doing it the way you actually learn things that you're gonna you're going to work into your into your routine with my my my big goal in at one of our earliest meetings. We had a retreat very early. On at pushkin we sat down to. What are the principles that we believe in his accompany. Sounds very pretentious. It actually wasn't and my the one. I was encouraging people to accept less and we did was that we should always remember. This should be above all else fun for not having fun. We shouldn't do it. It shouldn't be drudgery so i always think about my big worry when all the lockdown happened was will still be fun if we're all working from home and we can't hang out with this sort of wonderful collection of invest way misfits and weirdos that we have gathered many podcasts. I never myself among them. So i what. I can't hang out with these delightful weirdos anymore. This is not going to be fun. And so i think what's happened is that we've just discovered new ways to hang out. My sense is building a new muscle and that it or that were kind of a a resilience so that you know you can do it knowing you can do it. Another way is enormously freeing as i mentioned earlier. This episode is just one of many podcasts. Included in the small business pod florence presented by dell technologies a podcast conference to get inspiration on topics like fundraising building teams or managing a business in our current environment from top podcasts. Like against the rules with me. Michael lewis rise with rachel hollis and rhett and link from ear biscuits for the complete lineup of episodes visit. Dell technologies pod dot com. Welcome back here's more of my conversation with jacob. Weisberg malcolm glad well from pushing industries michael. I think they're too big impacts. I've been thinking about on. The company wants cultural and one is more sort of substantive around what we may but the cultural point is that a company like ours people are really close and they get very close making creative work together and we just moved into this new office in new york like literally a week before it was closed and we all had to work work from home and be socially isolated or physically isolated. And that was the bummer. I mean we were. This office is really great like everybody was really excited to be there. It's cleaned new. There is really good coffee like we couldn't wait to get to work and see each other in the morning. Those of us who are new york which is most of the staff and suddenly. That's denied to us. Everybody's worried about everybody. Everybody's got a whole new set of problems. People have to figure out how to take care of their kids home school. Their kids worry about their parents. Some people are feeling physical symptoms. Are people getting sick so you have suddenly instead of this. Kind of convening. You're you're separated and worried And the obser- cultural observation. Is that people. Then become really Habituated to and really enjoy in a way the forms of digital connection having zoom meeting once a week. Where everybody's on it. You just see where everybody is. And you see the backdrops and one of our employees sophie. Mckibben is up in up in new hampshire and she you know she calls in from car because that's where she gets the best phone connection you see her in her car and you see people in their apartments. Some of them have kids running in and out of the frame. And it's just. I look forward to that so much. Just seeing everybody. I think other people are having the same feeling and As you know ceo. I feel grateful to these people who've got all the stuff that they're having to deal with in their lives that they weren't expecting But they're doing their best work the same time and i think that's partly because workers refuge in is in a situation like this says you got jacob. I have a question for you. You spent most of your life sympathetic to and surrounded by and being one of them do journalists who never have to take any responsibility for anything and you. You've managed to become pretty naturally like an executive like a person who runs a thing and sounds like you just sounded and like like you could be secretary of the treasury I i'm wondering where you pick this up like are you reading on the sly like in the middle of the night reading these horrible corporate management books are are you. Do you have some little secret source of wisdom you go to. How'd you figure out how to do this. How to run a business You know i think was watching people. do it and i and i think i've learned a lot from people who weren't so good at it as well as from people who who are really good at it. But you know mike. I was always just really interested in this problem of how you could pay for high quality journalism or media We both came out of the magazine world and it was just this fundamental issue even before the internet and things got challenging. You know how do you. How do you make money on magazine journalism where someone spends months doing a story and i sort of went from being interested in that problem to kind of taking on the problem. When i was at slade as part of that we ended up selling slate and i ended up being responsible for it and it was an evolution. But i did go kind of in stages from being a fulltime writer editor to being the head of the business and i don't know i think you know. I think you've both reflected in this conversation that it's fun to try new stuff when you're in your fifty s a lot of people in their fifty. Don't get to do that. people just want them to keep doing the same thing they've been doing. So if you get an opportunity to try something new at this stage of life you can jump at it and you should jump at it and for me. That's the business stuff amalgam. I hope you feel this way. It's weirdly still fun. I feel a little guilty about it being fun now how not. The world is and businesses for for a lot of people. It just seeing how we we've heard incredible people and seeing their resilience and how they've adapted to it You know it's it's it's kind of joy and it's It would be very different story if it wasn't working but it feels like we're gonna get through it and i feel pretty good about it at the moment. All right so you guys to my is you guys have never had a spat or a disagreement. But maybe you have and you since you gone into business together Have you have there been any sources of disagreement. Well if anybody's thinking about doing this it is. It is riskier in slightly different ways. Starting a business with your best friend. There's there's there's a lot more upside because it's it's a delight to do it But you know it's who gets to decide. I mean you're you have dynamic that's not always a friend dynamic. I think it's been pretty seamless and easy for me and malcolm. He can tell you what he thinks. That i don't think we've had any any meaningful or significant conflicts. But the you know the one dynamic that i point to which is not my favorite. But it's the reality is that i've got to say no more than malcolm does he's. He can come up with with all these ideas. And i've got a little more of the responsibility for figuring out how we can get him donner which ones we can get done. And sometimes i've just got to say malcolm that's just like one idea too many. We can't do it. Give an example. Will you know malcolm like meet someone on a plane and land and send me an email about why they should have a podcast. And i've got it and say okay. Well let's you know. Let's love to talk to them. And let's hear what their voice sounds like and you know. Have they ever done any audio before and you. Now he's he he's got very good instincts. And the it's i guarantee you. Those people are interesting but whether they're going to be the right person to do a show for a whole bunch of reasons is something we kind of have to figure out But that's what i mean. Malcolm this is the president of pushkin. That's the role of the president of quicken is to be constantly pushing us to do more. Come up with ideas to be kind of the the creative lead. And then there's i've i've got to be the filter but i think that's working out okay. So far we do you know. I don't know. What percentage of malcolm's ideas bear fruit. But it's It's it's more than zero and less than all of them. I tried to get us to buy as opposed to rent an office. That was one of my ideas. We went safaris to actually look at some offices with to buy with real estate agents and then at the end jacob said you know i'm not sure we really want to be spending our time and attention. Managing real estate. It's going which is absolutely correct but again left my own devices. I would have been you know careening around new york real estate because i gotta get my head that why. Why wouldn't we own our own. You know. I get why. That'd be fun right. It's like we have a clubhouse. You know we can like we can. We can edit. Can be podcasts. Pushkin central and we can you know but was one. It was already starting to be. You know we'd spent a couple afternoons looking at real estate. Which was which we're afternoons. We weren't spending on making podcasts or other parts of the business and also sort of occurred to me. Well if you buy a place it really is going to limit your growth potential. I mean what if we do want double in size next year and the office only holds twenty percent more people than suddenly. We have the problem of subletting space. And we're in the real estate business. So yeah i think that was one of the cases where Maybe had to gently talk now down from a fun idea. If you if you had to go back and redo the first year of your existence. What would you do differently. I'd they wanted things. I've been pushing from. The beginning is to think of ourselves as more than a podcast company. And i still. I don't know whether it's a legit concern. But i still worry. I don't wanna have is a staff too many eggs in the podcast basket. Because i think of that world is it's too unstable for my tastes. I i've actually gotten dickinson. Been and even stronger proponent of this idea than me. I think this point but i wondered. I don't know if he were doing over the first year was would there have been a way to start more aggressively on that track from the beginning. Maybe maybe not when you say diversify out of pocket pet food. What are you gonna do on your like book books. Books events You know Producing things for people where you're not depend on advertising all those kinds of things Just diversifying where the money comes from right. So you're not. You're not slave to the ad market right. That was that's really but actually think i take it back. Actually think we've done a really good job doing that. Yeah i mean. I think we i think we bit off about as much as we could have chewed and in the first year in a bit. One thing i would have done is i would have got the nice office sooner. I mean we the nice office will be for me the fourth office and if you count my home office where i'm coming from right now. This is my fifth office in about a year and a half and you know. I thought he could save money. Someone gave us free space for a couple of months. The beginning we have that many people But it does take a little bit of a toll on your you know your mail never quite all gets forwarded to the right place so i think i would've Said you know we're gonna we're we're we're thinking big. We're going to need the nice office. Let's just get it now even if it's a little empty for a while are you in the nice office now. Well theoretically we are. We moved into it. We a week before covid head but with yes we are looking forward to getting back into it. You don't think there's any risk if you started in the nice office you wouldn't think of it as the nice office you think. This is the starting office. I i now need a better office in. I'd always been haunted by the phenomenon in the media world where the company goes goes to hell as soon as they get the nice office and i think is a real reason for it to which is that. Everyone gets distracted by the like the decorating. And the who's going sit where and suddenly nobody's doing what they're supposed to be doing instead. They're all thinking about the office. So i always thought don't make the office like the last thing you worry about. But you know what it's part of like providing great place for people to work and it affects the work. If you've got a place people want to come to in your. The coffee can't be too good. I mean you think about how good that coffee is. It affects how much you want to be in the space. And that's you know how much you wanna be in kind of cr- creative conversation with your colleagues. Do another example of this is. I never thought about the import until you are. Actually part of this is to anyone. Who's part of it this. So you're part of the business starting visist. You don't understand the importance of hiring and quite the same way as you You don't understand like one. How crucial one really good person. It can transform an entire aspect of your business or one. Bad person can be disastrous. Your i was always have been different to those questions i thought. Oh you know. 'cause i had. He's kind of arm's length. Dealings with editors are copy editors or whatever. You always get rid of if you didn't want our team has been so so strong that it's almost made us afraid to hire people. Because we haven't we haven't got a dud yet and the team worked so well together and i do have this kind of phobia. That were eventually eventually. We are going to get a bad apple. Not even a bad apple. Just someone who's not great and I just worry when that happens. It's going to change the dynamic and you know kind of raises the stakes on every person you hire because they you have to think they are going to be as good as all the people you've already hired and you're right you the you are. You maybe is this. This is what you see when you're when you're starting out in your small businesses that you may start to lose sight of when you're giant business and you've got tens of thousands of employees is just the effect of a single person. I finally understand after observing for years with some mystification. The obsession entrepreneurs had with hiring. I now understand it get it now. I don't know why this mysterious mystery. You never had to hire anybody right. He michael let me ask you a question. Yeah this season's about coaching and you've been talking to some of the best coaches in the world. You've been thinking a lot about what. How good coaches think. What do you think a really good coach would tell us about having a company like ours and what we should be doing or thinking about. I mean if there was like an entrepreneur coach could who role they probably all think fair is. I don't know if you've talked to that person yet. But i'm sure there are coaches for startups and entrepreneurs. But i haven't talked to any of them. I challenge you now to name any activity for which there isn't someone who calls themselves a coach roaming around selling their services. That's the thing that's been amazing to me that we we actually could start with. What's the activity when we want to write about or or talk about and go find the coach. Because you know they're they're what a see. What would a really good So the. I'm not persuaded that so it is true. I think that the best place to insert coaches is you're kind of situation where transitional states and I bet. I bet the the with the coach would a coach would do with. You is just ask you lots of really difficult questions that even i don't want to ask you And and take you Try to figure out where you might go wrong like. I bet if i was guessing what the what the risks you guys run our a. We run as i am party or business. is the depth of friendship is so deep that it's hard for me to imagine You choosing the success of the business over the success of your friendship and if there is ever a moment with those two things conflicted the friendship would survive but the business would take a hit which i love but i think that's true so that's how it should be. I think we. I think we both feel that way. Hopefully we won't face that conflict you know. I don't think you will. But i think when i think about i coach would come in and say you guys are doing great right. This is an awesome. it's awesome startup at all. Everything's going well. I think the coach would come in and say what's the risks. Let's see if we can analyze. What what what what we should be thinking about might come down the pike and and and sort of prepare you for them Do you have anybody like that in your life. Who's who's kind of coaching you on. The side is michael. Lynton doing it. You chill friend of all of ours. Mike michael lynton who was ceo. Sony has a lot of experience working in a lot of different kinds of businesses and He's both them very much available for for advice for me but also offers it unsolicited. It really good times including when this crisis head you know he he served called me up and said you know who wanted to make sure that we were kind of thinking about these questions about our cash position and our resiliency and also about you just want to ask me about how it was communicating with the staff and making sure people knew what was going on and there weren't rumors going around and it's It's great to have someone like that. I re- i rely on him a lot. Both above the advice. He gives me. And that i know he's thinking about the business and has experienced. I don't have with small businesses so michael's kind of your coach. Yes he is he is he is. He is definitely my Co coach. i'm curious. I meant to ask you when you went off on this retreat the retreated which malcolm introduced. The idea of fun is a founding principle. i totally agree with if we're not having fun that the audience is unlikely to have fun. Either is what were the other principals that were sort of your that you regard as your core principles and you remember fun. Which tells you lebel. Who's her executive producer and has been the executive producer of malcolm show since the beginning. She's someone who came with us. From from the old company Is very important person and establishing our culture but she talks a lot about kindness as a as a principle of the company and It's really it's really true. And i think she's been the kind of guardian of it but it's the way people think about working together and how they help each other and support each other and the ties into i think a bunch of other ethical principles not just about integrity journalistic integrity business integrity But you know Diversity the kind of workplace we want to create the kind of society. We wanna see bottled in the company. So people have a lot of feelings about it. And when you have a young workforce those getting that stuff right and having that all relevant meaningful people to people. is crucial in recruitment and retention. Because you've got not just be a place where people can do interesting work. I think you've got to be a place where people want to work. How do you get across your values to someone who's coming into thinking of working for you. I think they have to. I think that they don't hear from this. I'm hopefully they do hear it from the ceo. But i think people only believe when they hear it from peers and see that peers are having that kind of experience in the place they work and kind of. I can't hide. You can't hide who you are especially as a company. Right is a person so maybe a little bit but as a company you know word will spread and what it's like their values come they they do come through and i think it's especially true with start up companies because they grow up so quickly that they end up being kind of projections of the values and beliefs of the of the founders. And you know. I think that's trick facebook and one way uber another way but it's it's even more true at a smaller business. Everything that you you believe gets reflected in some way in the in the company. Thanks again to jacob weisberg and malcolm glad well of pushkin industries you can hear more of dell small business pod by searching dell technologies small business pot fronts on radio dot com spotify or apple podcasts special. Thanks to emily. Ross dhec carly migliori. Julia barton heather fain and jason gambro. I'm michael lewis.
Interview: Best-Selling Author Malcolm Gladwell On 'Talking To Strangers'
"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity. Some things are slow like a snail races other things are fast like Xfinity X. by get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply from NPR. I'm Sam Sanders. It's been a minute today on the show. We have got a treat for you. A very special live conversation with Malcolm glad well you probably know Malcolm for his five New York Times best-selling nonfiction in books the tipping point outliers what the dog saw David and Goliath and blink you may also know Malcolm is the host of the very popular podcast revisionist history. You may also know Malcolm as a New Yorker staff writer or his years writing for the Washington Post. He's been doing this for a long time but whether you read him or not or listened to him or not or know him or not I can guarantee you. Someone you know at some point in their lives has bought a Malcolm Gladwin book in an airport. I guarantee it. That's how I found him so Malcolm and I caught up on stage recently to talk about his newest book. It's called talking talking to strangers what we should know about the people we don't know this book is very much in his will house joined lots of different big ideas and theories and stories together to craft the capital t thesis but this one talking to strangers it is different is not as light as his earlier stuff. It's pretty heavy and the the book tackles some depressing topics in our chat. Malcolm tells me why he wanted to go in that direction. He also tells me why one of the constants in his reporting and for years has been policing and Malcolm wildwood explains his close connections to not just one but two democratic politicians currently running running for president all right here's me and Malcolm glad well live at Listener Auditorium at George Washington University in front of a packed house. Okay enjoy Oy in everything that I have all my interviews with my shoes off. It's a weird good luck charm. Should I take off my shoes. Stealing your shoes still WanNa aw cute okay now. We can begin began. This is to your tour but I saw on day one. Were you hanging hanging out. We're Charlemagne. The God was I had a yellow like friends don't well. That's too strong. I have a friend I wish I was. I'm not really cool enough. I have a friend who is cool enough and he soon Tommy and Tommy is my conduit to Charlemagne and Tommy actually I tweeted this Tommy how to dinner recently which I was not invited because I didn't make the cut but here's he was at the dinner such a Tommy thing King Charlemagne decent mirrow. PF commenter who's like a if you're a sports not you'll know who is a big and and Pete Buddha judge and all right well I three iconic figure is kind of black hip hop media and they repeat we await wait a wait kind of like hilarious sports guy and Pete and my first question of course was what did you guys talk about and then Tommy says fantasy football of course I was it was obvious that that's what they were GonNa talk about which point my my my respect for soared in a way that actually that embarrassed me something like it shouldn't sore upon learning that he's he he knows nine languages he reads Norwegian fiction action in the Norwegian on the idea that he also has follows fantasy football shouldn't raise the bar higher but it did well. This is the weird thing about people as soon as they run for president the only things we care about our all of the things that aren't actually what make them become a functional president. It's so weird that notion that we obsessed I have another relevant story on us and this is pure boasting Kamala Harris of course I follow her whereas someone who is who is of Jamaican heritage I follow her. I went to Grad school with her niece. She's very nice okay so I I did a little googling and I discovered that Kamala Harris his father grew up in a town in Jamaica brownstone which is where my mother went to high school really so I emailed pulled her dad and said you don't know me but you grew up in Brownstown. My mom went to high school and he emailed back the following. He's like okay. I know your mom went to a Saint Hilda's college in Brownstown. I used to watch all the brownstone girls go to church. He said more importantly when I was at the University of West indies doing my Undergrad I was encouraged to go into to study mathematics. Which is the reason I became an economist by a young professor named Dot Dot Dot Graham grabow rabble so my father is the one who encouraged Kamala Harris is dead to become an economist which is the reason he moved to Stanford? Which is the reason he married Kamala Kamala Harris his mom? which is the reason Kamala Harris so wait? Wait wait wait. If if she's elected she better have your the inauguration. I better be their DAD secretary of something. She saw what what role in the cabinet what you like. I think I should be the name in my position. I'm sorry president the creation is no Kamala Harris candidate. Let her know if we all know her. Tell her let's talk about the book. I want to start this conversation about your book on Uh this same way that you start your book on a very very heavy topic I'm talking about the case of Sandra Bland Twenty eight year old black woman who was stopped by Texas State Trooper in two thousand fifteen what began as a routine traffic that went very very very wrong we're gonNA play some of that interaction right. Now you're going to see you're going to hear it. Consider this a warning. It's heavy heavy stuff because now why am I being apprehended. You're trying to give me a failure. Why am I the apprehended? You just open my car door. You just open my car door so you you drag me out of my own car. You know the cool and then you wow now well what you're doing it right yeah. Let's take this video twenty times times in their it gets better. That's entre bland text officer named Brian Insignia three days after Sandra was arrested during that traffic stop she she was found dead in a jail cell and her death was ruled a suicide. You are not known for telling stories that hurt this much. I read your books. You cover lot but it's usually not this stark. You Open your book with this. Why this why now I was really early up so I've been writing about two things for a long time race and law enforcement everyone I books except for outliers has a big chapter on something to do with crime and police so these are topics near and dear to my heart and there was something about that wave of cases in starting with Ferguson through Sandra Bland and on and on that that that really got to me in a way that I hadn't I hadn't thought that I hadn't anticipated and then I read a book by Gun in Frank Zimring criminologist at Berkeley called when police kill which really upset me which was published in the middle of all all of this in which he asked first of all he asked the question how many American civilians died at the hands of law enforcement every year and the first third the book is trying to figure out what the number is because surprising that we don't know which chick is an a shocking factor and then second he figures out the number and then he asked the question is this number is thousand and he asked the questions that higher low so relative to other countries and the answer is it's way way way high and the third question he asks is why and he has whole long list of answers and the but the answer but it's it's deliberately? I think his answer unsatisfying because a death that comes at the hands of law enforcement is far more socially corrosive than a death that happens I think in other ways I mean the the the public trust. Yes I mean this is something that we all know but I don't think we spend enough time on which is that all are not equal. The death of a twenty five year old is not the same as the death of an eighty five year old and and the death of someone by something that we don't understand matters more than the death of something Bhai something we do understand well. This is why we're so freaked out by mass shootings because it's not the number of deaths. It's the fact that it makes you think that it could be you at anytime you and a death by the hands of law enforcement is socially corrosive in a way that is I mean completely out of proportion to almost the kind of death seem really matters and the there has been this kind of breakdown between law enforcement and civilians in general but communities of color in particular US words again. Chuck started breakdown right right. I mean from start struck me as being something that was deeply troubling so that was where the book begins. I want you to read a portion of the book that really lays out what I find to be the organizing thesis of it and then I found very powerful when I want this audience to hear why write a book about a traffic stop gone awry because debate spun by that string of cases was deeply unsatisfying that is fine one side made the discussion about racism looking down at the case from ten thousand feet. The side examined each detail of each case with a magnifying in glass. What was the police officer like what did he do? Precisely one side saw forest but no trees the other side saw trees in forest. I each side was right in its own way. Prejudice and incompetence go a long way towards explaining social dysfunction in the United States but what do you you do with either of these diagnoses aside from vowing in full earnestness to try harder next time there are bad cops. There are biased. COPS conservatives evidence preferred the former explanation liberals the ladder in the end the two sides cancelled each other out police officers still kill people in this country but those does does no longer command the news. I suspect that you may have had to pause for a moment to remember who Sandra Bland was. We put aside those controversies after after a decent enjoyable and moved on to other things. I don't want to move on to other things the I've covered these stories before as a journalist the shootings wins the police interactions the fraught relationship with black neighborhoods and the frame for addressing each of these things when they happen is always race. I you're the first person I've seen talk about. A story tied to the black lives matter movement in this way way that in which the conversation is not race I yeah what was the rationale behind that and were you scared that some people might say eh. You're ignoring the elephant. So why the frame I read a paper article an essay written by historian Chicago named Charles Pain and it was called the whole United States is southern and it is and remains one of the single most brilliant things I've ever read and pain is talking about the the kind of southern the white southern other project in the era of the civil rights movement in response to it was to shift the frame from from a discussion about institutions and practices and laws to a discussion about out people and the heart the heart personalized. Where's your racist bone yes to say that we can end racism? If only we we all got along and we're all if our our hearts were pure and we tried really hard that was that was their response to the kind a broader argument that was making pains essay is all about how that side one that they managed to transform the debate in this country about racism from one in which we were considering these larger structural issues too when we were just personalizing everything and there are so many examples of this and they drive me up the wall so like we got really upset because the governor of Virginia a middle aged white guy who went to a frat whatever it was you the in the seventies these were black face that really really got US upset but you know we don't we spent more time on voter suppression and Gerrymandering Gerrymandering snaps which matters more here right and I feel like with these some of these police shooting cases cases we are in danger of doing the same thing that we were endanger looking and saying the officer in the Sandra Blank is a racist shame on him and that that is a deeply deeply unsatisfying conclusion. I was determined when I wrote this book that I was not going to go down the road of going in depth into whether there was darkness in the harder Brian Incendiary. There doesn't maybe there was maybe there wasn't that incident could have happened in exactly exactly the same way if Brian Senio was the purest if he was a member of the NWPP and marital black woman right because because it's not it's not an ultimately about his particular attitudes towards black people is about philosophy of police fundamentally flawed philosophy of policing of which which he was the embodiment. That's the issue and I think a lot of us. Don't realize how the basic fundamental building blocks of policing as we know it came out of the shadows of slavery in the plantation in many of the things that we think that police do it was the same kind of tactics to keep them on the field. You know what I'm saying. We don't even unpack it that far sometimes how this has become a very black conversation and I love it but but I wonder and we kind of eluded this backstage. Are you black yeah well. I'm not as black as as you but I'm what are you. What are you if your mom's black I mean but mom's black but then my mom would say my mom wouldn't say she's my mom would say she's west Indian and now we're getting a whole nother which I don't want to go? I don't want some kind of feud breaking up between the West Indians in the audience and but I mean in Jamaicans are very very clear about the fact that they're Jamaicans. I yeah and Jamaican be Jamaican means like nineteen different things and like they have their own kind of like the superheroes of blackness. They're I'm so happy. Sweetest thing I've ever finally owning up to the kind of been here. Superiority of Western is is that what's going on here. Perhaps Hatta the she ego of Jamaicans about greatness everyone else like I I swear if you like talk privately to a wet to Jamaican. They have an implicit ranking. It's like Whoa Jamaica's one maybe Trinidad's to okay and then Barbados are Betas. Maybe three African American four probably like they suddenly put maybe Barbados second intruded happens like Jamaica clearly number one question they might slip they might have makes the Nigerians in because effectively Nigerian so there's no what kind of commonality there but like yeah there sheers kind of chauvinism of Jamaica's in it's an awesome thing but I ask because like you grew up in Canada. Nothing is more Jamaican than growing up in Canada to make a move like but like you can probably walk through the world old folks would know half of the folks would not know. There's probably a lot of folks that read your book if they haven't read the book where you talk about having a Jamaican mother. They don't know black people almost so it's by no sense why people don't know black people always now. Do you feel about that as a rare. How many of you now he's in this room? Raise your hand on US mind blown and then I've done. I do things to further like I had my. I had my DNA done and discovered that I'm like what is it eighteen percent Ibo so I tweet that out now Nigerian I get so much injury in love like I walk into like so oh yeah there's that but I I have noticed this. I periodically people come up to ministry and so I keep a tally of who is it who comes the ministry and it is overwhelmingly black people overwhelmingly black men which I find really really interesting interesting. The world of public intellectualism is so one kind of guy and I tell you when I found out that you were black ish I was like we got one in this but I kind of love. I guess I guess I'm black trademark team. No one is ever called me blackish before. It's a a great time for a break you're listening to my live conversation with journalist author and podcast host Malcolm glad well we talked last week at Listener Auditorium at George Washington University when we come back Malcolm and I are going to talk about something that is very sensitive some folks might WanNa skip hip ahead we discuss rape and sexual assault on college campuses might be hard for some listeners all right. We'll be right back. This message comes from NPR sponsor Tele Doc. Have you ever needed a doctor late at night or while traveling tell a doc offers twenty four seven access to to board certified doctors for nonemergency conditions like a sinus infection allergies flu rashes and more Docks Board certified doctors can diagnose treat and where authorized authorized to prescribe medication to be filled at the pharmacy of your choice download the APP today or visit Tele Doc dot com slash minute no matter where or when your day begins started with morning edition from NPR news on demand weekdays from seven to three just say Alexa play morning edition and the whole premise of this book is that we don't know how to talk to each other especially strangers but isn't that a problem. That's been with us since the beginning of time you loud examples throughout history. Do you think it's worse now than it's ever been. Yes so obviously is worse because for most of human history you you rarely encountered strangers rangers you lived entirely within the world Manley clan community and then it just sort of shift in the modern era where you're all of a sudden your world is opened up and you've confront for the first time people for whom you have no frame of reference and this is really the kind of crisis that I'm describing in the book which is that the strategies that we developed over the course of hundreds of thousands of years for dealing with people that we know really well. You don't work when we're dealing with here. We don't know so the classic example would be as human beings we use people's People's body language and facial expressions as a way to interpret their emotions and went on dealing with someone who I know very well that works because I have a whole body of experience. Yes I know all of the particular idiosyncrasies that make up your emotional presentation so there's a storyteller my book about my dad. Here's my mother scream scream. He's in the shower and he comes out of the shower naked he seventy five years old bushy beard and might someone has a young man as a knife to my mother's it's Rhode and my father naked seventy five years old points at the guy and says get out now. That'll do it and the guy leaves now. Oh the Oh there he leaves for number one it is it is unexpectedly terrifying to see naked seventy five year old Englishman but to look in Jamaica and could have been different than to the second is which was given to me by on the breakfast club by Angelilli who said her she was like Oh. Nobody wants to fight a naked man and I was like you know what that's so true. You don't WanNa find a naked man daddy next book I thought that was fantastic and tastic and so it's like wait a minute. So if I'm interning situation I should just take off my clothes. Just take people just going to back up. She's not worth it and the reason that's relevant to this is that my father was someone who emotion negative emotions did not show his face so the and so that was one of his peculiarities and if you know my father you would know that you would know that when he was terrified as he would have. I've been in that moment you they would be zero Tehran space but the dude with the knife doesn't know that what looks like a stone cold killer like pointing at him and say Jeez also nude runs right but if you don't know so if you don't know my father are you fundamentally misinterpret him in that moment right so there's a classic example I talk about this is what I call. The problem of transparency which is with strangers we are reduced is to to the assumption that facial expressions are a authentic and reliable representation of internal motions and the single powerful powerful facto human beings is that that is not true is in you know we all think that when we are angry our jaws drop remember when we're angry our our our brows brows furrow and arm when we're surprised our jaws dropping arise widen that is not the case like that is a fiction is perpetuated by actors on in Hollywood movies but in real life all of us have incredibly incredibly diverse array of ways representing emotion and when you don't meddlesome was that we can ask them very easily yes yes and so when you're dealing with strangers you're GonNa make mistakes unless you have some understanding of the context in which behavior is happening not just the immediate context but the historical context unless you've read your history books unless Suv some appreciation for the cultural nuances of America you cannot make sense of a stranger this description for this book. It's called quote a challenging and controversial excursion through history psychology and scandals. I found the controversial to be particularly true. There are some stories that you take a second look at in this book that I think a lot of folks would say maybe don't take a second look at that because we know exactly who's is right and wrong and this is bad and that was a bad man. I'm talking specifically about the rape cases you discuss in the book lay out the case and why you wanted to revisit that when it seemed like a thing when I saw it on the news I was like that's pretty simple and straightforward him lock them up. You know what I'm saying so I was interested in conversations that go awry between strangers and so I was thinking about what are all the kind of relevant categories and police stops will be one but I also thought that campus sexual assault cases clearly belong here because they they differ from if you so I began to read accounts of campus sexual assault cases and focus on for this book. It's the Stanford yes so I'm I was GONNA get to that in a moment but I began before that happened because many if you read these and there are there are tens of thousands thousands of documented campus sexual assaults every year so there's a voluminous body of these things and if you start reading accounts many of them begin the same way which is they are to a man and a woman at a party and they are engaged in some kind of thing that people are engaged parties getting to know someone who you don't know didn't ed over the course of the evening. Something goes badly wrong right so I want to say so I wanted to understand okay. Is there something here that we we can understand and make sense of so began to talk to people who study these cases and every one of them said the same thing to me which was weld old. You can't talk about these cases unless you're talking about alcohol and I heard that again and again and again and again and so I thought Oh okay so maybe I should do a chapter about drinking and its contribution to this which led me to the most famous recent sexual assault case which was the Stanford rape case and we're both parties are very very drunk to this is the case involving at Stanford a nineteen year freshman named Brock Turner is discovered essentially assaulting an unconscious woman outside a Frat House late one night and then is convicted and sent to jail and it makes a huge controversy over the length of his sentence trial is all about drinking the issue is how much they had to drink and with the consequences of their drinking because he was convicted of essentially under the clause in California law which is is that if you are engaged in sexual activity with someone who is too drunk to consent. You're guilty of a crime so the question that trial was how drunk was. Emily does the victim to the trial. I think correctly concluded that she was so drunk that she could not give consent and that's why Brock Turner was convicted. My the reason I wanted to write that chapter was that when you look at the way that not everyone but in particular younger people dikla people the on campus think and talk about sexual assault they leave alcohol out of it. They WanNA talk about it. As if alcohol was a stray a isolated fact but when you understand it precisely what on a physiological and cognitive level alcohol does to people particularly particularly extreme drunkenness does to people you understand you can't do that but you can't discuss events like that without acknowledging that the role that alcohol plays so particularly if you WANNA prevent sexual self from happening again by the way if there is one thing that we are extraordinarily blase laws Ahah about in this society it is the problem of sexual assault on campus the number of cases. We're talking about tens of thousands of documented cases every year. There are tens of thousands of violent assaults that are I mean this is a problem that is on a scale that is unimaginable and we are presuming to try and get a handle on this problem and reduce it without acknowledging the elephant which is alcohol and so much basically says we need to acknowledge that if you drink to excess you are radically increasing your chances of engaging in criminal behavior even though you may not while sober nobre be someone who is inclined to engage in criminal behavior and on the other side of the equation. If you drink to excess you're radically increasing your chances of being a victim of a sexual assault that is not victim blaming that is an acknowledgement of the fact that you are losing control and putting yourself at the mercy of a Predator editor and that is you can't discuss this without without acknowledging the fact that look if you are if you are three times the legal limit Emmett and your blackout drunk you're not in control of your of your body and yourself and your decisions and what other people are doing to you and if view believe that sexual is as big of a problem as it is then. It's crazy to do that when you look at the statistics on sexual so you realized that a a drunken frat party at midnight is not a safe place right and you cannot pretend it is benign. It is a place where crimes uh-huh occur with astonishing frequency and so if you if you are going to be present in a place where crimes occur with astonishing frequency do not lose control of your own ignition a and B you're on the other side of the more importantly on the other side. Don't get so blind drunk that you turn thrown into a criminal. It's not controversial right. Here's the thing though even you addressing this rape case in a book about aw miscommunication Are you worried that some people are GonNa say is Malcolm Bradwell. Sane rape is just a problem home of miscommunication Malcolm glad well like do like obviously the things that you're saying they make sense but do you anticipate the way you frame and get into the story about a rape to get pushback. No because I well well we'll get pushback probably am I concerned about it no because I think if you read the chapter carefully honestly you will. It is clear that I am that I have not crossed over. There is an argument which I one hundred percent. Reject is a victim blaming argument. I am not making a victim blaming argument. I making the victim preventing argument right. I am someone I'm coming at. This in the perspective of this is a problem that is out of control and we I do something to bring it on your control control and this is one of the things we ought to do which is moderate drinking behavior but I can hear critics saying well. It's a slippery slope. If now we're saying the beware of the FRAT party at midnight. What is it next? Don't walk around that campus ten. Don't take that class that it has more men than women like is it like does it like. Do you worry though that do you worry about that. Mission Creep sometimes and this idea of like like could someone use these arguments. Could someone use your framing gene to victim blame to tell a woman but you can't if you want to be honest and talk about difficult subjects you cannot be constrained by the fear that someone will misuse your arguments down the line that path to self censorship is more dangerous than the slippery slope. You have to have some faith in your to have faith in your readership and I do you that they will read what I say thoughtfully and intelligently and by the way I will also say that in that particular chapter I went to enormous pains to make sure that it came out right to the point where I must've written and rewritten at ten times I put together like a basically a panel Hannele of twenty two year old women who have lived those Frat Party and said read this and tell me what is your reaction and only when they were satisfied tied with what I had written. Did I say I'm done right so it's not I did not enter into this. I think that you run into trouble and you ought to run into trouble. When you deal with with complicated subjects in a cavalier fashion yes this is anything but cavalier I went in with into this with the utmost of care and caution to make what I think is a socially necessary argument about the fact that we are treating alcohol? It's coca-cola and in a coca-cola all right one more break. You're hearing my live conversation with author and podcast host Malcolm Gladwin about his newest book talking to strangers what we should know about the the people we don't know after the break twist on my favorite game who said that bobby support for NPR and the following message come from the the real real the leading reseller of authenticated luxury items shop luxury clothing accessories and fine art at unreal prices from your favorite designers designers like Louis Vuitton Gucci Cartier and hundreds more and the real real authenticates each item to ensure its guaranteed authentic shop in store. You're on the APP or at the real real dot Com and received twenty percent off select items with Promo code real what happens when Ronald Ronald McDonald's walks into a poor immigrant neighborhood in the south of France and sets off a super sized revolution the story of how company slogan slogan to sell off shakes and Burgers became a rallying cry for workers in France. NPR's rough translation the hard question now you are a publishing powerhouse and millions of people love your books and we'll buy them and have bought them five New York Times bestsellers but this weird thing has happened with your career where the bigger your books get and the more people want to actually buy them critics of the world take more and more issue with it and I was trying to put my finger on it and then I was like you know what you're like the Taylor Swift of the book world not in terms of what the critics are saying but in terms of like there is no mixed opinion on Taylor Swift you either love her or you hate her. That's IT and you've become that what makes a public public figure that we know a lot of options where Mike sure fine but when you when I was telling folks in the run-up to this interview at him talking to Malcolm Lad World I mean if you have any questions the majority but the ones who did not love you you. I'm not gonNa tell you what this there was the reviews you. Some of them are just like super bad. One of the New York Times like it felt like the review I had a stomach ache and was like a mid mountain global 'cause my tummy back and then as a kid I was always fascinated effected. When adults had stomach aches they were obsessed with the notion of identifying the cause of stomach ache like my dad would always have stomach aches? Come Home Mama say. Why do you have some who say it was the onions at work Geico like how do you know a thousand things have happened to your stomach over the last six hours and you're like sure it was the onions at work tomorrow the book she was like I am convinced he was talking to strangers the constant I mean I don't lose sleep on? This is obvious yeah. I don't think I mean so here's well. Let me say this Germany Jimmy give you the Malcolm grab will hire theory of knocking Cortana okay so over the years. I've noticed that there are two ways enrich which critics attack my books way number one is. He's stating the obvious he just dresses up. Commonsense in bootle number two is is he says outrageous unsupportable things and supports it by Cherry picking the data now. The first observation is that it can't be both both if I'm stating the obvious I don't need to cherry pick the data and if I'm cherry picking the data can't be stating the obvious but not really so that's observation one that there is a kind of puzzlingly large disparity between the two anti-global schools opposition to is that often in fact usually both arguments are made simultaneously so sometimes i read these things genuinely wanting to be a better writer. Let's sit down and learn from the critics Malcolm and then we get very puzzled because I think what is am I stating the obvious or my Cherry pick data that I'm kind of lost and then point number three is on Cherry picking in proof of Cherry picking. They'll say global often cherry picks data for example on page sixty five. He makes a claim about but always pay sixty five has seventeen seventeen footnotes homework. If in proof of the claim Global Cherry picks data unit come up with one example you pick data touche note note to self wanNA use the criticism Cherry pick come come up with more than one example otherwise you're cherry picking so that's puzzling to me so after that I sort of given up frankly frankly. Is there one story one part of a book. We're looking back. You're like well. The truth is I don't actually actually believed that. I am a target for a lot of criticism my feelings I get a lot a lot of love and it it's very criticism stands out another. Let me ask you a question in order for a book and do that in order for a book to be successful. What percentage of rears do you think have to like it if they bothered it? Don't matter you I'm asking serious question what percentage what is the threshold for a successful book in terms of percentage of leaders who are like a two-thirds okay trauma awesome so sixty six percent of you think book is successful of sixty percent sixty six percent of readers like yes okay so let's imagine that this book does really well beyond my wildest dreams and I sell a million copies and that means that six hundred sixty thousand people like it and three hundred certain thirty three thousand forty thousand people hate it three hundred I will make three hundred forty thousand enemies. If my book does is really really well beyond my wildest imaginable so one way to think about critics say criticizing me one another way to think about it is the more critics you have. It means more readers you have. Are you haters of your motivators. I love this so when I see these critics I think that just means I'm Ettelaat of people and probably to like I mean if I think my books are successful. So that means there are two people like everyone prisoner dozen. That's a I'll take got trade any day of the week like if I were to critique the work mark there was one thing that you've written about and brought into the consciousness that now everyone has changed changed their mind on this police seen in this idea of like broken window policing. Can you explain that to the audience and then tell them if you think that flip on it is a valid one well the person who's flipped on it as me yeah yeah so in my first book I have a chapter on broken windows policing the idea that by cracking cracking down on small crimes it sends a message to the would-be criminal population at large crimes will not be tolerated. Would I write that same chapter today a million times no that idea although there is some merit to it became a justification vacation for some very unfortunate kinds of policing that I have been waging war against I've been I've been backtracking and apologizing and correcting that original position in every book since except for allers so in blink in David and Goliath and in this book I'm implicitly critiquing myself by trying to come to a more sophisticated understanding about what effective policing looks like most particularly in what the forever aggressive action taken by a police officer there is a both a benefit in a cost cost and we have paid in the early stages of the successful war against crime in the nineties. We paid a lot of attention to the benefits recently appropriately. We've started to pay more attention to the costs and we started to weigh the I my my mistake and it was a grave one was this in the beginning I got caught up in that enthusiasm for the benefits and now I'm much more like in this book for example David and Goliath. I'm really zeroing. Bring in on what happens when with the false positives what happens with the people who you are swept up in this kind of aggressive policing who have done nothing wrong and is the kind of loss of credibility betrayal of trust that is that is the consequence of those false positives. What what is the what is the result of that what's the price of that and I think now that the price is enormous and that's why in this book I spent the last last quarter of the book talking about what a thoughtful and strategic and targeted police in looks like and how that idea is strongly supported boarded by recent research in criminology? I think that there's a really important lesson for me in that I think for all writers which is that if you are going to pick up a topic you have a moral obligation to revisit it because it is almost certainly the case that the kind of research research that you and understanding that you used in your original presentation will change that you must be willing to revisit and change injure mind when it's appropriate and you have to if you get criticized for your original incorrect position you got to man up and take it and and I think that's part of what it means to be a public figure all right. I WANNA play a little game that we play on my show every week. The game is called. WHO said that it's the most fun we enjoyed? Throw it every week with this clip from the real housewives of Atlanta saying who said that on the loop it works trestle anyway in this game usually with my journalist panelists I will read a quote from the news of the week and they have to guess who said that or guests the big news stories referring to so. I WANNA play this game with you but it's GonNa be a twist. It's GonNa be you against yourself. We're GONNA play you said that doc so I have a few quotes from my favorite articles of yours back in the day. I'm GonNa read them and you're going to have to remember number. What's laureate was from okay and tell us really quickly the conclusion you came to article? I quote ready. There's no buzzer. Just say it out first of all how many things in the supermarket run the sensory spectrum like this you a Oh article book about why Heinz Ketchup was the greatest ketchup in the world was that yes the summarized briefly your grand theory of ketchup mustard that I don't think I remember from that article was it involved volved a guy named Howard Moskowitz who had the most extraordinary quote which was an old Jewish expression to a worm in horseradish the whole world. What is horseradish which I'm not Italian shows? I know what that means but I love it. I think this article so good good he he he he lays out and make a plane. Why there's we own just one kind of catch up but like if the kinds of mustard read the article he explains all right next quote you will never hear Wilco and Jay Z on the same station? Even though lots of people listen to both Wilco and Jay z like me. I have no clue rarely. Will I put Wilco Jason. This was an article. This is an interview that you gave to the Guardian about a topic in one of your earlier books. It's music related Nokia Kenna. You remember right by Ken. Oh well yeah okay okay. This is one of my favorite things of Malcolm glad you wrote this really interesting. Take on why Kenna this musician musician Theo Paean Yutian who was somewhat new wave somewhat hip hop somewhat wrap why the industry let them in critics loved him but he can never take off because he didn't fit in one camera. It was so good. I remember that okay okay the last quote we're actually going to have you tell it to yourself you. You have to landscape bit mowing drench it in pesticides. Keep the sand traps perfect. You have to landscape it Mohit drench it in pesticides. Keep the sand traps perfect. Oh that's my thing about the golf courses of la Yes yes yes yes the two that was fun that data I earned the emnity of golfers forever this day day. People like scowl at me over that particular really take down the golf course well. It is by the way away since I have a little bit of soapbox here the most absurd thing in the world you drive through. La and there are these giant parks on the US. Oh not park mark. Can I tell you what's the most absurd thing in the world all of La Violent but yes it is it's crazy in the most beautiful weather in the country. It's hard to find the park this park space because they're all have big fences around them and but we know what he's playing golf on them. If you pure to the fence and look for golf and you can't find they're just fenced fenced-off beautiful grassy areas that theoretically could be played golf on and they're just trying to keep people out like I don't understand why and then they get Adama massive tax break to support this activity of keeping people out from a massive beautiful greenspace. Yes like there's no part of that. Make sense the I agree. It's a great episode season two episode one business history data you know what I wanted to do originally was once you realize that the value of the land that is occupied by the private golf courses of La is in many many billions of dollars and the reason they can continue to keep the golf courses open as they had the special tax. They basically don't pay property taxes because one year property taxes would put the golf course out of business so originally my idea was not to do a podcast episode so I was GonNa join an exclusive private golf course golf club in L. A. And then agitate become a public person agitating for an end the tax exemption which would cause the golf club to sell itself to a developer and they would divide up the value of the a course which is many many hundreds of millions of dollars equally among the members get a get rich scheme. I was so convinced this is like I was like canine like Oh my goodness I this is it. This is all I had to do is come up with the cash join. Get my way into are you and I ran this idea pass and people who were members of these exclusive clubs in the liquid yeah. That's that's genius. That's a really good idea so then I was like like mail. I'd watch that netflix movie. I worked it out actually if I did it. I did the math and worked at it. If I joined Ellie Country Club I think my end would have been like thirty million if I went through with the strategy. It's open to any of you the US all yours. I have no grand plan for the end of this conversation yeah but I know that they're going to drag us off stage. We don't end it. I would stay up here for hours and hours more. you have been a big part of my intellectual growth in more ways than you know because you didn't know me but I appreciate the way you continue to make ask questions about the things we think we already know. I value your mind and I thank you for being here. Thank you so thanks again to mountain glad yeah well for joining me live at Listener Auditorium at GW in DC it was a blast Malcolm's new book called talking to strangers what we should know about the people people we don't know what's in bookstores now many thanks to the team that made that show come alive senior creative producer Joanna Paulauskas for making this event happen an NPR's engineers Jay says and the Tasha branch also thanks to Brittany Kerr Foot and Liz Hoddle at politics and prose and thanks Dan is he Mike Michael J. C. At George Washington University's Listener Auditorium all right now. We're going to leave you with extra tidbit from one of Malcolm's producers. His name was just enrichment I used to work with him at NPR and he shared a very fun fact with me about Malcolm that I think y'all will also enjoy You'll hear it right now till next time back near feet Friday. I'm Sam Sanders talk soon so the quirkiest thing about Malcolm that I've observed is does do does not like a seaman we were in the car and it's it's record breaking heat and what is noisy associate for windows down. We're cruising around Detroit windows down down and he loves it. He's like a cat that way I suppose a week later we're having a little party for a Pushkin at his apartment in Manhattan and it's a record breaking breaking heat again. We're in triple digits and it's just windows open. That's IT NO A._C. I know he has easy
Sports Talk with Junior 10/27/20
"Have to do laundry when I get home. I have to like all my clothes over to the washing machine. Then I, get put them in the dryer. And Accident May Shrink Mike has. Mir Sweater again. Motorcycles make everything exciting and when gyco makes it easy to switch and save on motorcycle insurance it's even more exciting. I'm going to all all my socks into little off. GEICO motorcycle fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. This is fight night a new podcast from iheartradio. They thought he had robbed a dead Liz man in this country guys who would not hesitate to blow your air. This story from Atlanta Georgia has been reported for fifty years. But now for the first time, you're going to hear what really happened. From. The people who lived it. Listen, and follow fight night on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Junior is here guys with sports talk for today what you got junior well, you know surely we in the middle of the NFL season, you notice count women have a good week they put up three points loss to Washington didn't even having name of ain't nobody in Texas have a good week. We didn't have a good means. we didn't. We didn't have a good week either. Tom Brady Steel winning Tom Brady what. Probably try to second best quarterback in the League. Russell Wilson, got his first loss this week he lost he's number one quarterback. Yeah me. Man, but how do you feel right about now? We're leaving browns lost Odell Beckham junior man remain of the season with a torn ACL. Good. Good. Yeah. I love Odeal I hate that happen to meant he's a fan young man but. Working Cleveland like all, we have some bit of bad news during the season. Used to. This. Don't know. Gay We've been. You see you see a company already. Sit as why I'm riding high right now because I See the waiters work. The Texans. The brooms. End Up to Steve Day a record silver. Look. What's going to happen cleaning but I tell you what? It ain't going to be pretty because we in the wrong division, we got play Baltimore. Got Played, the steelers game. Sound faint season go faint. Idea, I hate that happen to them he said great player but just. A Nice Guy Great team. Tonight Love News though in sports. Game Six of the World Series A.. L. A. Win. Now you got the NBA Championship and the world series in the same exact city. So, this is a pretty good. Anybody Tom you predict you do you do well the predictions times because. I'm betting. Who had he beat? Go seven games. How about that is going strong. All seven game. Is it now three, two one. Three two. Three to Los Angeles. Yes Tom Go SAM. Komo. All we know is. Big, seven-game everybody put their money on the dodge. Anything. Junior. Thank. You coming up at the top of the hour more of the Steve Harvey Morning Show right after this you're listening. To morning show. What's up this occur and I'm Alexa Kristen we're the CO host of Adly India. The advertising industry's most thought provoking podcast. We bring our listeners actionable perspectives to bring back to their. And Boardrooms Atlantia clubhouse reopened with Special Guest Malcolm Gladwin I'll be sure to follow us on twitter at at Atlanta podcast and listen to Atlanta on the iheartradio APP on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fight night a new podcast from iheartradio. They thought he had robbed a dead Liz man in this country guys who would not hesitate to blow your air. This story from Atlanta. Georgia has been reported for fifty years. But now for the first time you're going to hear what really happened. From the people who lifted listen and follow fight night on the iheartradio. APP. Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
A presidents push for an unproven cure
"As the country continues to battle the spread of the novel Corona virus many are desperately in search of answers solutions and treatment options in search himself for something of a cure. President trump has repeatedly touted one particular drug as the likely savior for cove in nineteen patients. Hydroxy chloroquine at this point. Hydroxy chloroquine is an unproven treatment for cove in nineteen. It's still in the testing stages treatment for this particular virus it can have dangerous. Side effects for some and medical professionals are divided on its likelihood of success yet. None of those factors have stopped. The president from advocating that people infected with the novel Corona Virus considered taking this drug in consultation with their doctors and the other thing that we bought a tremendous amount of is the hydroxy chloroquine hydroxy chloroquine. Which I think is you know. It's great malaria drug. It's worked unbelievable. It's as powerful drug on malaria and there are signs at works on this some very strong signs. Many doctors and scientists advising trump have been advocating that he exercised more caution in talking about the drugs potential promise but others inside the White House and on Fox News have been influencing trump offering him anecdotal evidence of the drug success. Meanwhile clinical trials for the particular use of hydroxy chloroquine and clinical trials for other potential treatments for coverted are being expedited in a time of crisis. These trials would usually take quite a long time years even so who decides what kinds of trials and process youth can be expedited in an emergency. What are the risks when things move quickly and do the outweigh the potential rewards in a time when Americans are desperately search of a cure? What's the role of the President? This is Kenny. Do that a podcast. That explores the powers and limitations of the American presidency. I'm Alison Michaels. Before we get into the reasons why president trump has chosen this particular drug to put his faith in tout publicly. I wanted to understand how drug approval works and how hydroxy caloric fits into that picture. It turns out to no one's surprise. Clinical trials are complicated process. Dr Mark Gladwin is the chair of the Department of Medicine at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. He's also a pulmonary and critical care specialist. Dr Gladwin started by explaining the process for developing new drugs under normal circumstances so normally. There's a very long approval process for medications that that involves sort of the backbone science of whether a drug is likely to work off in the early process begins with models and how they drugs might work whether it's everything from computation in Salako modeling of a molecule protein interaction to a high throughput chemical screen of an action of medication and if those models pan out scientists bring their tests to life than these either small molecules are. Antibodies are taken to oftentimes animal models of disease a rodent models of disease typically NAS models success. There means the trials move on to safety untypically. There's two species of safety testing and this might be Dosing to a very high dose of a drug to make sure it's safe and then after going through extensive animal safety we go to what are called phase one trials where we look at whether it's safe typically paid normal volunteers and there again is a dose escalation to determine the maximum tolerated dose in humans after safety testing. Something called a phase. One to study where we're going to look at safety and patients may be with a particular disease and we might at that point. Look at preliminary advocacy. After that we go to larger phase two trials of efficacy in other does the drug work for a specific clinical endpoint. And there's one more face before a drug moves from clinical trial to review by the Food and Drug Administration. We go to phase three which are very large placebo controlled trials. Okay so you've laid out the process for trials of new drugs but what happens with drugs that already have. Fda approval for other uses the way that Hydroxy Clark Windows for example in this type of situation we can go right to a phase one two or phase three study where we immediately tasks whether the drug works for a new clinical indication. It's also important to note that for drug hydroxy Corcoran were allowed to use these drugs as clinicians were allowed to use these drugs off label. Meaning we can try them for a new indication. Even though they haven't been proven to work for that indication and that's what's happening internationally with hydroxy chloroquine for Kovac nineteen so then an emergency times like we're in now how do some of these processes change. We have support built into our system to expedite certain treatments. In Times of crisis there are two approaches in a time of crisis. And I know we're talking about hydroxy chloroquine or other experimental therapies for Kobe. Nineteen and physicians often have to extrapolate clinical information. Either from the use of a drug for another indication. Maybe there's very preliminary data that suggested. Drought might might work. Sometimes there's really only theoretical data that a drug may work and physicians than have to make an informed decision about whether to try that drug for a a new disease or a new indication and again. This process is called off label. Use The off label. Use of drugs is not something new. But it's something that's often done and I think in times of emergencies with emerging diseases. We tend to do that more so than as you said. There are two ways to expedite testing of drug for a new US. One way is by doctors just directly prescribing drugs to patients off label and then the other is by having patience formerly participate in a clinical trial where scientists can men draw conclusions about the results. Obviously for some patients time is of the essence. So how long does a clinical trial like this usually last so a traditional clinical trial can often last a long time? These trials may involve multiple countries hundreds if not thousands of patients and it take a long time to identify patients with the right inclusion and exclusion criteria seek out informed consent enroll patients and then analyze the data and complete the trial. That's that's actually wants to trial starts. You can imagine. The average. Clinical trial can take a year to seventeen months to even go through the regulatory process to start so a large phase two or phase. Three trial can often take as long as three years to start and complete. So then how during these times are we able to see much more? Expedited clinical trials in the case of Kobe. We are using drugs that have already been. Fda approved so it's quite easy to jump over the animals safety. Jump over the human phase one and go right to the clinical trial does drug work and so people are getting approval from local irbe's or multi-centre irbe's by the way the I. R. B. Is a review group that determines whether a clinical trial is a safe whether the monitoring's appropriate whether there's a scientific justification for the trial and the IRBE will monitor during the trial to make sure that we are safeguarding. The interests of our patients trial. We've found just a here. At the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center that are have turned all their attention in their priority to new research and treatment surrounding cove in nineteen. And we're seeing this really across the country and I think internationally there has been a priority placed on this so when we put in a proposal we have rapid approval. In fact one great example is if you want to try and new drug and you want to register the trial. The FDA provides something called A. N. D. which essentially is an investigational status for that drug or that treatment that you're trying and the FDA has has done something very innovative and very forward thinking for the case of convalescent plasma. This is a blood product. This would be the serum plasma from our blood and we would collect that plasma after we've been infected with SARS covy to. We've developed antibodies and now there's plasmas called convalescent. Plasma and our plasma now is loaded with antibodies that have the potential to bind to neutralize the virus and so the FDA provided across the board. I indeed for the use of convalescent plasma in clinical trials for patients with cove in nineteen. All right I wanNA pivot a little bit just to talk specifically about Hydroxy Clark. When can you just explain what this drug is? And what is typically used for so hydroxy? Chloroquine is an old medication. It has anti inflammatory properties. It has some anti parasitic properties targeting. The malaria parasite and it's thought to have some antiviral properties. It's used to suppress the immune system in the setting of patients with autoimmune diseases. It's chronically used and we know it has a very good safety profile so so that's sort of a little bit about what the drugs currently used for. So what's happened now is people have fought. Maybe this drug would work for SARS covy to infection and there's been use of it extensive use of it off label for that new indication and again there's very little data on the advocacy in other words. Where whether it works or not for infection with SARS covy to there have been a handful less than a handful of clinical trials that have many weaknesses for example either no control group or imbalances between the treatment and the Control Group and it leaves us very uncertain whether the drug actually works. Then why is it that during these times? We're hearing so much about this particular drug. I think hydroxy chloroquine. It's been rapidly embraced because there is a real hunger in need to offer something For patients with infection if you look at the very short history since December of cove in nineteen. We've already gone through two drugs that everyone was excited about and they didn't work the first one was a drug for. Hiv called Ritonavir Lapenne Aveer. There was a lot of people in China and Italy were given that treatment and then a trial showed that it didn't work the second one even more concerning was high dose steroids. These were used in China and also used in Italy and we now know that high dose steroids worsen the course of Kovic nineteen disease so already the first two drugs we pulled off. The shelf didn't work and now we've pulled a third drug hydroxy chloroquine and with only three very weak trials. To look at a people have been really desperate to receive something and because the drugs are FDA approved because it's relatively safe. There's a sense of it. You know why not try this medication but we just have to really back up and trust in the scientific process that a clinical trial allows people to have access to the drug and at the same time very rapidly in definitively and scientifically answer. The question does the drug really work and if the drug doesn't work we rapidly pivot to the next treatment if the drug works we rapidly provide that drug to everybody is so important with a disease as lethal as Cova nineteen that were on solid footing with our treatment recommendations as we move forward now. What are the risks when using a drug like this trump has notably that in reference to implementing more widespread use of this drug? He said what do you have to lose so to his point. What do patients with covert have to lose by taking this drug so first of all hydroxy? Chloroquine is a very safe medication. It's been around a long time. We know a lot about it. Having said that there are really some things we still do not know number one is. We don't know the dose that would be effective against SARS covy to. We don't know even whether it works in improving covered nineteen because the clinical data is very limited. There are also some potential adverse events of the drought that we have to think about the virus that Causes Cova nineteen SARS covy to can in fact the heart and it can cause cardiovascular problems and so we don't really know whether Hydroxy Corkman could interact in a bad way with the viral infection on the heart to cause more of an electrical problem. The other problems people with code nineteen are sick and their electrolytes can get abnormal. Can Get kidney injury. They can get low blood pressure and they can go to electrical disturbances and electrolyte. Disturbances like potasium for example or magnesium that also affect the propensity for us to develop arrhythmias. If we're on a drug like a hydroxy chloride I do want to. Mention One. More adverse event that that is theoretical. The we worry about and as you know we're seeing more and more Kobe. Nineteen cases among our African American population and African Americans are at higher risk in this country for Co morbidity such diseases like diabetes hypertension chronic kidney disease and these co morbidity he's appeared to make cove nineteen more severe. There's a very common genetic mutation among African Americans in an enzyme called six. Pd and hydroxy. Chloroquine can cause anemia in people. That have jeeze expedia deficiency and we just have very little safety data on the use of Roxie Clark when people Jesus expedia deficiency so. We really don't know whether Hydroxy Clark when is going to be safe in this population and what are some of the perhaps lesser considered effects when you have a president claiming that this drug can work to treat. Cova do people who need this drug for other conditions. It's already been approved for have a harder time getting the medicine they need. For EXAMPLE WE DO WORRY. There's a lot of patients with systemic. Lupus Erythematosus where the drugs proven to work for them and we do worry a little bit about the veil ability drug for these patients could be limited if so many people are using the drug off label now. The medical community is often cautious. This process takes a long time. Of course that's very important and but you've spoken to how in a moment like this it's been beneficial to sort of move more quickly through these processes to find remedies worked for people especially in drug using drugs that are already FDA approved. Are there any drawbacks? In this process being expedited are things being missed or left out or or any risks not being addressed so I think the main drawback is what we've seen so far which is rapidly. Deploying poorly designed trials. You know many of the trials that everyone's excited about F- involved thirty people sixty people the control group and the treatment group are imbalanced. One of the trial didn't even have a control group. You know we so what we're doing is we're looking at data that's inherently flawed. And we know for any drug. There's less than a ten percent chance. The drug actually works. So this idea that you're going to benefit from experimental therapy is really not stood the test of time if we look at human history most drugs that we try fail. It's really that rare drug that actually works so what we WANNA do is rapidly deploy well-designed trials. I don't think we need to make this tough choice that we face as physicians and our patients face this decision. Do I take drug this relatively safe? That's already FDA approved that may or may not work versus participating in a clinical trial where we actually test whether the drug works or not and we monitor you during the clinical trial for safety that that choice doesn't have to be a Faustian bargain. There are ways to do clinical trials. Today that are very rapid. We can make these drugs available for our patients in the context of the clinical trial. Where we're monitoring safety and work giving patients the opportunity to try that drug and by participating in this trial. Were not only having the potential to how to help ourselves but we're contributing to our our future patients who are infected with stars. Covy to and to your knowledge the speed you have witnessed now. Is that unprecedented or is this? In Times of crisis we expedite certain processes in order to get possible treatments to patients. I think over time. Our regulatory bodies and our research organizations have become much more nimble. I think a lot of this was driven by the AIDS epidemic. My career started as a med student. Intern I was very much brought up at the very beginning of the HIV AIDS epidemic. And at that time it took a long time for trials to be approved and executed in drugs to be approved and the federal government the FDA was very responsive and they created a number of pathways for rapid expedited review of clinical trials and approval based on positive results. And we're seeing the benefits of that here where the FDA our local IRBE's of the regulatory agencies are really prioritizing trials testing new therapies for code nineteen again. I just WanNa stay that everything we do in. Clinical Madison is based on the principles of science. And the scientific process and when we face a disease as severe as Kobe nineteen it becomes more important than ever that with every step. We advance our confidence in the treatment. Principles and that we know that if we're going to offer a drug to thousands of people even if it's a relatively safe drug we need to know that that treatment is going to make an effect that it's GonNa make a dent in the disease and if it doesn't we need to know that because we need to move quickly pivot and test the next thing that we have to rapidly evolve to beat these emerging pandemics and so the best way to do that is in the context of a rapidly. Activated Clinical Trials. We just don't have to make this choice between empiricism and science. I think that we can rapidly. Provide drugs for people in the context or in the setting of a carefully. Monitor clinical trial Despite the lack of strong empirical evidence thus far president trump has expressed a strong belief. That hydroxy chloroquine will be effective treatment for covert patients national political reporter. Robert Costa who reports on the White House. Talk to me about the reasons. Why trump embracing this drug and who the president is listening to about its effectiveness and safety. So president trump has repeatedly touted one potential treatment for covert. And that's hydroxy chloroquine. Where did trump learn about this drug? Can you sort of walk me through the evolution of trump learning about hydroxy Clark as a potential treatment for covet as he stares down this pandemic and an economic collapse a political crisis? President trump is looking for a silver bullet and according to his advisers who have spoken to the post he sees a silver bullet medically politically in hydroxy chloroquine. And he's been hearing about it not only from his task force and medical experts around him who have been reserved about its possibilities. But he's hearing it also from friends in New York including his longtime attorney Rudy Giuliani. He's heard about it from anecdotally. Who have been to New York hospitals and doctors who've been working with coverted nineteen patients? And so when you think about President trump he has this formal federal cabinet of people around him who are informing him medical issues but he also has this kitchen cabinet of informal advisers and that also includes Fox News hosts such as Laura Ingram who we reported a few days ago brought to doctors who regular on our guests on her program in what she does. Your medicine cabinet to the White House to brief the president about this anti-malaria drug now. What are these informal advisers telling trump about the effectiveness of this drug? It's important to note that. Hydroxy chloroquine is unproven treatment for Cova. Nineteen it's still in testing stages and it has had dangerous side effects for some medical professionals are certainly divided on its capability and the infectious disease expert. On the President's Task Force Anthony Fao G has actually privately pleaded with the president to be more cautious about this drug but there have been reports anecdotally that the drug is working to help people who are suffering from Kovic. Nineteen you hear about it from doctors. I've spoken to some of those doctors myself. And they say it has helped to lessen the symptoms to help people who are struggling on ventilators and the president who is impatient to say the least he wants to embrace its potential and offer it as something to the country that may be on the horizon as some kind of miracle drug. Can you explain why? The president is listening to advisers like Rudy Giuliani and Laura. Ingram who themselves aren't doctors. During a time. Like this he's hyped. Hydrochloric Queen as one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine and the whole episode here of his embrace to the drug really illustrates the degree to which the president prizes anecdotes and sometimes his own instincts and feelings over science. In fact and what's coming out of the Food and Drug Administration or what's coming out of any federal agency and it's been a division within the White House. About how much talent this drug you see the president's allies repeatedly touting it in conservative media outlets but you have scientists who are helping the president generally get along with the president being very wary of saying anything definitive about hydroxy chloroquine wallet still being studied for its effectiveness throughout the course of my reporting on President. Trump. I've often heard from people close to him that the most influential person in his orbit is the person who has spoken to him most recently. And so people who believe in hydroxy chloroquine this and they're trying to inform the president in their own way when Laura Ingram from Fox News came to the White House last Friday. She brought to guests from her program. Remain ask we washington-based cardiologists in Stephen Smith A NEW JERSEY BASED INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALISTS. And you also have the FDA Commissioner Steven Hahn in the Oval Office as well and they made a detailed presentation. Smith did Dr Smith about his views on treatment and he talked about the benefits of hydroxy chloroquine based on his own experiences and studies. And so you see in that Snapshot Allies of Hydroxy Chloroquine Believers and hydroxy chloroquine are telling the president of the United States who they know relies on anecdotes and his own gut to think about things and stories beyond what he's hearing formerly through the chain of command and they also know that the president is skeptical at times of the the reserved way the bureaucracy functions and so when he's confronted with this major crisis in his administration he is casting a very wide net in terms of information. Whether it's something. He picks up online region article. Or here's as an aside in a White House meeting. Do you have a sense from your reporting as to why trump is choosing to tout this drug versus some other possibly promising treatments particularly? There's been some hope around blood plasma treatments for covet patients. Why this drug and not one of these other paths. You see a clamor inside of the White House to find something pharmaceutically. That could be an answer here. Because they're dealing with the economic crisis health crisis and so beyond that of friends who are advocating for hydroxy chloroquine. You do have White House advisers like Peter. Navarro who's heavily involved in the corona virus response? He's been pushing hard for the drug inside. And the president has just been told a lot about hydroxy chloroquine and yes he. He's been told it has an effect on the heart's electrical system and it could affect how it resets between contractions but he he. He thinks that this is still the pathway to go. The problem here is for many health. Experts is that the president is fine to believe in the drug as a citizen as a person. Anyone can have a belief or optimism about a certain drug. But they worry that the president is giving too much of a boost to an unproven drug before the FDA makes its formal approval in the whether the president would search around for another possible drug. That could be helpful. He very well could. But at this point it's hydroxy chloroquine that captured his imagination. Now when we talk about that boost that the president has the power to give a treatment in this case. Is this something that comports with what we've seen in history president possibly pushing treatment publicly before it's been confirmed effective or when we consider the power of the president is this a reasonable tool for him to use exerting pressure to expedite momentum. It's highly unusual when you ask. Can he do that? He can do anything in terms of what he says. He's an American. He's the president he can have opinions. But it's highly unusual for any president to weigh in before the Food and Drug Administration especially in this kind of repetitive advocacy. Way that we see from President Trump and we've also reported in the Post that the president has not only said positive things about hydroxy chloroquine. He is pressured the FDA head Dr Han to make favorable sentiments and statements about hydroxy chloroquine. And he's regularly raised this with him. In behind the scenes discussions and the president has also voiced his own frustrations with doctors in the administration including Dr Houghton. Dr Chee and keeps repeating that there is anecdotal evidence and he's hoping they will say positive things at these news conferences. He has every day and now last question for you. This obviously isn't happening in a vacuum. How does the president's approach in this moment reflect his ongoing relationship with the scientific community and even with his own advisers you see president trump at every turn not listening to the formal chain of command in always trying to hear what others in his orbit or saying? And this is once again. An example of that. But we're seeing the president three years in to even more like himself up president post impeachment. Who is breaking away from the way American presidents usually act an almost every part of his government and he's leading the government but he's also almost isolated times from his own advisers picking up evidence and stories and pieces of data and building his own view of the world that he then presents at briefings that he shares on twitter and it doesn't follow what the federal government is doing because you have a federal government in the United States government. Still waiting to have any kind of conclusion on hydroxy chloroquine yet. The head of the government is is searching for something to help. But it's we see presidents in these kind of pandemics and crisis situations and world leaders do the sorts of thing not to the level of president trump but in France for example Emmanuel Macron has also expressed interest in seeing. What's going on with hydroxy? Chloroquine at is hope out there for it on many fronts. Both here and abroad. But it's the way president trump. Tout's it before approval that has raised alarm inside and outside of the government. All right thank you so so much for your time. Thank you this has been another episode of. Can he do that? The Washington Post has all the information you need to stay on. Top of the latest corona virus news sign up for our corona virus newsletter to get our latest reporting and. Faq's to keep yourself safe any article you click in. The newsletter is free to access to sign up go to Washington Post Dot com slash virus newsletter. The Post is also offering live coverage and stories with critical health information for free every day on our homepage and at washingtonpost dot com slash corona virus. And of course you can also use the Washington Post podcast. Sustain formed without being overwhelmed always free online or any podcast APP. Find them all at Washington Post DOT COM SLASH PODCASTS. All these links are available the exit description. Can he do? That is eighteen effort here. The Post it's produced by Carol Alderman. An area plotnik both of whom? I miss seeing regularly with design help from cat. Rebel Brooks Logo Art from Loretta. Bolio and theme music by Ted Muldoon.
Against the Rules Presents: Michael Lewis in Conversation with Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg
"Hi everyone it's Michael Lewis. I'm very proud and honored to present you. This bonus episode which is part of Dell Technology Small Business Pods so we know how many small businesses are now grappling with the impact of these uncertain times and looking for resources but a lot of the conferences where people trade ideas. Those are cancelled right now. So del. Technology has organized something. They're calling a pot. Fritz for small business owners like a virtual conference to share advice and some inspiration Dell technologies is here to help you through these times from keeping you connected and productive while working remotely with windows ten Microsoft teams to providing relevant content to help your business to find more participating. Podcasts search Dell Technologies Small Business Pot Frence on radio DOT COM spotify or apple podcasts. At the end of this episode I was asked to moderate a panel with two of my oldest friends. Malcolm Gladwin Jacob Weisberg. We've known each other since the nineteen eighties when we were all young writers in the magazine. Business Malcolm Jake or now. The CO founders of Pushkin Industries the company that produces against the rules which is now underway by the way Pushkin also makes a bunch of other great shows like Malcolm Zone revisionist history and the happiness lab with Dr Lori. Santos I've been watching on the sidelines over the past year as Malcolm and Jacob started the company so I was really happy to have an excuse to ask them all kinds of nosy questions about what they've learned about running a business together and the challenges they face and the challenges right now in our quarantine world will those are unique. You'll get to hear a little bit about that. Here's our conversation. 'cause I don't actually know the story so I would love to know how you decided to start Pushkin shake right it was Jacob's doing star. Well I'd started one podcast company already. Which was panoply which came out of slate But as things evolve panoply turned into a technology company. I thought I was starting mainly a content company and one of the shows we'd started was revisionist history With Malcolm that show was doing really well and there were some other shows. I was really interested in doing so was sort of when the earlier company under a CEO. I'd hired who I thought was making a good decision. Wanted to make a pivot that I said. Hey maybe it's time. That doc nice started our own company and only do what we WANNA do. I was on holiday with my family in. Can't remember where I was somewhere in your Italy. Admittedly and Jacob in some I think if I can tell the truth truly horrible live the villain said and he said he said on that he he summoned and instead we do something crucial need to talk about says I. You don't drove halfway across Italy. Show up in this horrible house but road and then he re like sat outside a little chairs and had coffee and he said I want to start a company that began. What did you say yes right away? Yeah struck me as well. The backstory about this is that Jacob has been. I've known Jacob for thirty five years and through for some significant portion of this. I would always say Jacob. I don't know why you want the journalist. You'd be a really great businessman. If you just became a business be you could make a huge amount of money. We could all get rich. Jamir forgotten. It's but I always worry that if I said that I was insulting him because what he really wanted to be was a writer which was doing a bad writer and I thought it'd be an even better business fan so I remember you saying this thirty years ago And so. Jake is a wonderful journalist but agreed it. He's they sort of a natural for this sort of thing. He's got the temperament for it. Unlike your do but you know what would surprise me. The thing that can take you back even a little further. It surprised me that you to went off on this podcast jagged first place you both had very happy successful careers in the world. Why did you decide that you wanted to do something different? You know Michael. I'd gotten the bug really in the early days of podcasting at slate were sort of because of a random connection with an NPR show. Slate had been working on. We started making some of the first podcast. Anybody listened to and everybody at slate all the journalists love doing them and there was this little audience small at first but growing that. Just love them and the giveaway was that everybody at slate who didn't have a podcast one of the podcast and they were just a joy to do. So you know. I'm a little evangelical about things I get excited about and I tried to talk Malcolm into doing one and I tried to talk you into doing what and Ultimately talk both of you into doing it. I talked to at first and then I think The fact that he was doing it may have helped to persuade you. It was worse than that. You Got Malcolm to lie to me and say it was easy. You lied but that's all right. We'll I forgive you so you're too old friends. Go into business together. How's it working out? Like how do you find working with each other? You surprised by anything. You finding things out about each other that you didn't know that you wish you didn't know we'll I I. I'm reminded of years ago. I wrote a piece. That was a really about my friendship with Jacob and it was about the idea that I'm what's called Collective memory which is that we outsource a lot of the things we know to our friends and family and I was reading about this. Because the Jacob Jacob who respect and trust so much that significant parts of my knowledge and cognition are simply outsource to Jacob. I was saying I knew longer. Read anything about politics or try and figure out simply ask Jacob what he thinks and adopt those ideas as my own. That was my position and I was sort of joke but it's actually true. It's just a way better way to live your life to make to appoint experts in your friendship circle and outsource everything to them. I do the same thing with my brother and wine and this so this is in business. I've just applied this principle. Which is just let him do all the things that I know. He's better at me. And since that's a rattle longlist means my life is very easy so this is that. True Jacob is there. Are you basically running the business in Malcolm's decoration? No I wouldn't say that I mean I handle more of the day to day. Say but Honestly at this point more the ideas come from Malcolm. And that's that's a bit of an adjustment because I've always thought of myself as the idea person but I'm like a good idea week person. Malcolm's like a five good idea. Day person and so big part of my job now is just like being. Malcolm's filtered try to talk him out of some of the ideas and then try to figure out how some of the others can can happen But these are ideas for shows these ideas for shows these are ideas for new businesses Malcolm. A lot of ideas and the typical day is you know at about eleven. Am He'll call me and say this is so much fun we really don't WanNa get too big too fast. Let's keep it just like it is and I say Malcolm I totally agree with that. This is the good parts. Let's not grow too fast. And then after lunch he'll call me and he said all right. I've got three ideas and each of them would involve like adding like ten new staff members and so if we if we pursued all ideas we'd have six hundred people right now instead of twenty five and that's kind of tension. There's not attention in that. Malcolm I disagree about. I think we're both pulled in both directions liking having a small business. Where were we know everybody? And it's sort of close like a family and we control everything but then all this opportunity and all these good ideas we want to pursue. I'm in these conversations that are you able to see the possibility of a really big business or everything is naturally better as a small business. You you've hit on the the hard part you know. I think we see that we do see the opportunity to be big. I mean I don't know you know when you say really big I mean now it's not. I don't think it's I don't think it's Google did. I don't think facebook big. But in the world of podcasting I think it has the potential to be really pay-setting and dominant But we also want to really really choosy and have everything we make really represent what we're interested in and the quality level. We've set so far so you know I think it's just kind of working out of those. Two things will result in the right size. I honestly don't know what the right size is. We're going to get bigger. It's just a question of how fast we'RE GONNA get bigger Malcolm. Yeah I think would occur to. I think all of us very quickly in this project is experiment. Is that We're not really in the PODCAST business. We're you know it's a cliche. We're in the storytelling business. And we happen to want us to tell stories to audio but that means you can compete against all kinds of like we re. There's no reason why we can't behave like a book publisher in many respects Is just that our books are on our audio not on page but once you realize that well look at book. Publishers there really big I mean. They have thousands of employees. They have so you know concede that way. If you think of yourself being into podcast world you you might think of yourself as being pretty small but if you think of yourself is just as using a different medium to tell stories that there's no reason why you can't be really big so to all appearances. This thing has been an incredible success. And it's been really fun to make a podcast for you I'm curious what troubles you've had especially like Given the pandemic how you had to adjust and respond and and How much difficulty is introduced into Your Business? Well we're we've all been improvising in various ways. I think we feel very lucky in that. What we make is is make a ball. Under these circumstances people set up recording studios at home and we have meetings virtually. I don't know that we could have done this with the digital tools that existed ten or fifteen years ago I mean things like zoom and then Slack and Google hangouts and shared drives Seem so essential to long distance. Collaboration in a way they've arrived just in time and it's sort of the moment for those tools we can make our shows and luckily we work with writers of caliber. Starting with you and Malcolm who can use their writing to adapt with what they're doing if there's an interview that you were going to do for your season this year Michael and you can't do it. You can write your way out of it That's not a position. A TV producer is usually in. I mean if you have physical production that requires people to be in a group and a place. It's just gotTa be suspended. Podcast we can. We can still make it. It's not Albanesi but people have been incredibly flexible and Nimble about how we're still going to get the show's done with this new challenge. So it's funny I'm about to. I've got five of my seven episodes for this sue. The the second season done. But I've got I've got one that really did require me. I thought require me to go out onto the road and I'm not able to do it and you said to me you know you can write your way around this and this weekend. I'm about to find out whether Dan and and I'm kind of wondering if you think that's really true. I mean what do you think? I what I'm thinking is just generally when you're thrown this kind of This kind of curve ball Look her ball and you hit it that you that you try to turn it into a strength and you see what you can do given that given the constraints but but there's apartment here in my voice. The podcast producer saying we need scenes. We need scenes and now you can't really get those scenes D does it for trouble that trouble you at all. You think. Maybe these could be better this way. Well I tend to share your view that the constraint provokes creativity and that you often end up with something that's better and more interesting than what you would have had otherwise but not always you know. Luckily I think for a number of our shows. We had a lot of the field reporting the interviews under our belt. And so we're more at risk of losing like twenty percent of what we wanted. If we hadn't done any then it's would be harder to make these shows you'd have to conceive them in a different way. They're dependent on vivid scenes. Where the where were you as? A journalist is physically present. Do you think it's going to change the way when this is over and you can go back to doing it. The all way you think you'll go back to doing the always think you actually learn things that you're gonna you're GonNa work into your into your routine with my my my big goal in it at one of our earliest meetings. We had a retreat very early. On at Pushkin. We have sat down. Tried to figure out. What are the principles that we believe in his accompany sounds very pretentious? That actually wasn't and I the one I was encouraging people to accept less and we did was that we should always remember that this should be above all else fund for not having fun. We shouldn't do it. It shouldn't be drudgery so I always think about my big worry when all the lockdown happened was will it still be fun if we're all working from home and we can't hang out with the sort of wonderful collection of invest way misfits and Weirdos that we have gathered maybe podcast. I never myself among them so I was like. I can't hang out with these weirdos anymore. This is not going to be fun and so I think what's happened is that we've just discovered new ways to hang out with my senses. We're building a new muscle and that or that. We're kind of a A resilience so that you kind of know you can do it knowing you can do it. Another way is enormously freeing. We'll be right back as I mentioned earlier. This episode is just one of many podcasts. Included in the small business pod ference presented by Dell Technologies podcast conference to get inspiration on topics like fundraising building teams or managing a business in our current environment. From Top podcast. Like against the rules with me. Michael Lewis Rise with Rachel Hollis Rhett and link from ear biscuits for the complete lineup of episodes visit Dell Technologies pod dot com. Welcome back. Here's more of my conversation with Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm glad well from Pushkin Industries. Michael I think there are too big impacts. I've been thinking about on. The company wants cultural and one is more sorta substantive around what we may but the cultural point is that a company like ours. People are really close and they get very close making creative work together and we just moved into this new office in in New York like literally a week before it was closed and we all had to work work from home. Be Socially isolated physically isolated. And that was the bummer. I mean we were. This office is really great like everybody was really excited to be there. It's cleaned knew there was really good coffee like we couldn't wait to get to work and see each other in the morning. Both of us who are New York which is most of the staff and suddenly. That's denied to us. Everybody's worried about everybody. Everybody's got a whole new set of problems. People have to figure out how to take care of their kids home school. Their kids worry about their parents. Some people are feeling physical symptoms. Are People getting sick so you have suddenly instead of this kind of convening? You're you're separated in worried. And the opposite of the cultural observation is the people then. Become Really Habituated to and really enjoy in a way the forms of digital connection having a zoom meeting once a week. Where everybody's on it. You just see where everybody is. And you see the backdrops. One of our employees Sophie. Mckibben is up in up in New Hampshire. And she you know. She calls in from her car because that's where she gets the best phone connection you see her in her car and you see people in their apartments. Some have kids running in and out of the frame and it's just I look forward to that so much just seeing everybody I think other people are having the same feeling and As you know CEO. I just feel so grateful to these people who've got all this stuff. They're having to deal with in their lives that they weren't expecting but they're you know they're doing their best work the same time and. I think that's partly because work is a refuge in a situation like this Jacob question for you you spent most your life sympathetic to and surrounded by and being one of them kind of journalists who never have to take any responsibility for anything and you've you've managed to become pretty naturally like an executive like a person who runs a thing and sounds like you to sounded And like like you could be secretary of the Treasury and I I. I'm wondering where you pick this up like are you reading on the sly like in the middle of the night reading these horrible corporate management books or are you do you have somewhat little secret source of wisdom you go to. How'd you figure out how to do this? How TO RUN? A business You know I was watching people Do it and I and I think I've learned a lot from people who weren't so good at it as well as from people who are who are really good at it but you know Michael. I was always really interested in the problem of how you could pay for. High Quality Journalism or media We both came out of the magazine world and it was just this fundamental issue even before the Internet and things got challenging. You know was how do you? How do you make money on magazine journalism where someone spends months doing a story and I sort of went from being interested in now problem to kind of taking on the problem when I was at slade and as part of that we ended up selling slate and I ended up being responsible for it and it was an evolution but I did go kind of in stages from being a fulltime writer editor to being the head? The business and I don't know I think you know. I think you've both reflected in this conversation that it's fun to try new stuff when you're in your fifty s a lot of people in their fifty S. Don't get to do that. People just want them to keep doing the same thing they've been doing. So if you get an opportunity to try something new at this stage of life you can jump at it and you should jump at it for me. That's the business stuff amalgam out. I hope you feel this way. It's weirdly still fun. I feel a little guilty about it being fun. Now how not fun? The world is and businesses for for a lot of people. But it just seeing how. We've we've heard incredible people and seeing their resilience and how they've adapted to it You know it's it's it's kind of joy and it's It would be very different story if it wasn't working but it feels like we're GonNa get through it and I feel pretty good about at the moment all right so you guys Temiz. You guys have never had a spat or a disagreement. But maybe you have and you've got since gone into business together Have you have there been any sources of disagreement? Well if anybody's thinking about doing this it is. It is riskier in a slightly different way. Starting a business with your best friend. There's there's a lot more upside because it's it's a delight to do it But you know it's who gets to decide I mean you're you have dynamic that's not always a friend dynamic. I think it's been pretty seamless and easy for me and Malcolm. He can tell you what he thinks. That I don't think we've had any any meaningful or significant conflicts. But the you know the one dynamic that I'd point to which is not my favorite but it's the reality is that I've got to say no more than Malcolm does he's. He can come up with with all these ideas and I've got a little more of the responsibility for figuring out how we can get them done or which ones we can get done. And sometimes I've just got to say Malcolm that's just like one idea too many. We can't do it. Give an example. Malcolm like meet someone on a plane and land in email about why they should have a podcast and I've got it and say okay. Well let's you know love to talk to them and let's hear what their voice sounds like and you know have they ever done in the audio before. And you know he's he he's very good instincts. And it's I guarantee those people are interesting but whether they're going to be the right person to do a show for a whole bunch of reasons is something we kind of have to figure out. But that's what I mean. Malcolm this is the president of Pushkin. That's the role of the president of quicken is to be constantly pushing us to do more. Come up with ideas to be kind of the the creative lead. And then there's I've I've got to be the filter but I think that's working out okay. So far we do you know. What percentage of Malcolm's ideas bear fruit? But it's It's it's more than zero and less than all of them. I tried to get us to buy as opposed to rent an office. That was one of my ideas. We went so far as to actually look at some offices with to buy with real estate agents and ended at the end. Jacob said you know not sure we really want to be spending our time and attention managing real estate which is absolutely correct but again left to my own devices I would have been you know careening around New York with real estate because I got it in my head that. Why wouldn't we own our own play and I get why? That'd be fun just like we have a clubhouse you can like we can we can own edit can be podcast. Pushkin Central. You know but it's was one it was already starting to be you know we'd spent a couple afternoons looking at real estate. Which wasn't which we're afternoons. We weren't spending on making podcasts or other parts the business and also it's sort of occurred to me. Well if you buy a place it really is can a limit your growth potential. I mean what if we do want to double in size next year and the office only holds twenty percent more people than suddenly we have the problem of subletting a space. And we're in the real estate business. So yeah I think that was one of the cases where maybe had to gently. Talk Malcolm down from a fun idea. If you if you had to go back and Redo the first year of your existence what would you do differently? I'd be one of these. I've been pushing from. The beginning is to think of ourselves as more than a podcast company and I still. I don't know still legit concern but I still worry. I don't want to have as a staff too many eggs in the podcast basket. Because I think of that world is It's too unstable from tastes. And I. I've actually Gotten Dickens. Been been uneven stronger proponent of this idea than me. I think this point But I wondered. I don't know if we were doing the first year was would there have been away to start more aggressively on that travel the beginning. Maybe maybe not when you say. Diversify out of podcasting pet food. What were you going to do on your book? Books Books Events you know Producing things for people where you're not depend on advertising all those kinds of things just diversifying where the money comes from right. So you're not you're not slaved the AD market right That was that's really but actually think I actually think we've done a really good job of doing that. Yeah I mean I think we. I think we bit off about as much as we could have chewed in the first year and a bit one thing I would have done is I would have got the nice office sooner. I mean we. The Nice Office will be for me. The fourth office. And if you count my Home Office where I'm coming from right now. This is my fifth office in about a year and a half and you know I thought he could save money. Someone gave us free space for a couple months the beginning we didn't have that many people but it does take a little bit of a toll on your you know your mail never quite all gets forwarded to the right place so. I think I would have said you know what we're GONNA we're we're we're thinking big. We're going to need the nice office. Let's just get it now even if it's a little empty for a while are you in the Nice Office now. Well theoretically we are. We moved into a we a week before. covet head but With yes it will we. We're looking forward to getting back into it. You don't think there's any risk if you started in the Nice Office you wouldn't think of it as the Nice Office you think. This is the starting office. I I now need a better office in Idaho. He's been haunted by the phenomenon in the media world where the company goes goes to hell as soon as they get the nice office and I think there's a real reason for it to which is that. Everyone gets distracted by the like the decorating. And the WHO's going to sit where and suddenly nobody's doing what they're supposed to be doing instead. They're all thinking about the office so I always thought don't make the office like the last thing you worry about. But you know what it's part of providing great place for people to work and it affects the work. If you've got a place. People want to come to the coffee. Can't be too good. I mean you think about how. Good the coffee as it affects. How much you want to be in the space. And that's you know how much you WanNa be in kind of creative conversation with your colleagues. Another example of this is I never thought about the import. You know until you are actually part of this old half to anyone. Who's part of this? So you're part of the business or starting a business. You don't understand the importance of hiring in quite the same way as you You don't understand one. How crucial a one really good person. It can transform an entire aspect of your business or one. Bad person can be disastrous. I was always that have been different to those questions. I thought. Oh you know because I had these kind of arm's length dealings with editors copy editors or whatever who you could always get rid of if you didn't want our team has been so so strong that it's almost made us afraid to hire people because we haven't we haven't got a dud yet and it. The team worked so well together and I do have this kind of Phobia. That were eventually eventually. We are going to get a bad apple or not even a bad apple just someone who's not great and I just worry when that happens it's going to change the dynamic and You know it kind of raises the stakes on every person you hire because they you have to think they are going to be as good as all the people you've already hired and you're right the you are you. Maybe is this. This is what you see when you're when you're starting out you're a small business that you might start to lose sight of when you're a giant business and you've got tens of thousands of employees is just the effect of a single person. I finally understand after observing for years with some mystification. The obsession entrepreneurs had with hiring. I now understand it. I'm like Oh get it now. I don't know why this was a mysterious mystery. You never had to hire anybody right. Hey Mike let me ask you a question. This the seasons about coaching. And you've been talking to some of the best coaches in the world. You've been thinking a lot about what? How good coaches think. What do you think a really good coach would tell us about having a company like ours and what we should be doing or thinking about. I mean if if those like an entrepreneur coach who could who role they probably office there is. I don't know if talked about person yet. But I'm sure there are coaches for startups and entrepreneurs. But I haven't talked to any of them. I challenge you now to name any activity for which there is someone who calls themselves a coach roaming around selling their services. That's the thing that's been amazing to me. Is that we we actually start with. What's the activity when we wanNA write about or talk about and go find the coach? Because you know they're they're now what would a what a really good So the I'm not persuaded that so it is true. I think that the best place to insert coaches is your kind of situation. Where Transitional States and I Bet I bet the the the key with the coach would a coach would do with. You is just ask you lots of really difficult questions that even I don't want to ask you And and take you try to figure out where you might go wrong like. I bet if I was guessing with the risks you guys run our or we run as I'm part of Your Business Is that the death of your friendship is so deep that it's hard to me for me to imagine You choosing the success of the business over the success of your friendship and if there is ever a moment with those two things conflicted the friendship would survive but the business would take a hit which I love but I think that's true so that's how it should be. I think we I think we all feel that way. Hopefully we won't face that conflict you know. I don't think you will but I think when I think about I think coach would come in and say you guys are doing great right. This is an awesome. It's awesome startup all. Everything's going. Well I think the coach would come in and say what's the risks. Let's see if we can analyze what what we should be thinking about. Might come down the pike and and and sort of prepare you for them Do you have anybody like that in your life. Who's WHO's kind of coaching you on the side is Michael Lynton it. I don't you chill friend of all of ours. Michael Michael Lynton who was CEO of Sony and has a lot of experience working in a lot of different kinds of businesses and He's both very much available for for advice for for me but also offers it unsolicited. It really good times including when this crisis head you know he. He served called me up and said you know. He wanted to make sure that we were kind of thinking about these questions about our cash position and our resiliency and also about you just want to ask me about how it was communicating with the staff and making sure people knew what was going on. There weren't rumors going around and it's a. It's great to have someone like that. I re- I rely on him a lot. Both both the advice he gives me and that I know he's thinking about the business and has experience. I don't have with small businesses so Michael's kind of your coach. Yes yes he is for me he is. He's definitely my Ceo Coach. I'm curious I meant to ask you when you went off on this retreat the retreat at which Malcolm introduced the idea of fun is a founding principle Which I totally agree with if we'RE NOT HAVING FUN. The audience is unlikely to have fun. Either is what were the other principals that were sort of your core that you regard as your core principles and you remember fun which tells you let me a. Lebel who's her executive producer and has been the executive producer of Malcolm. Show since the beginning she someone who came with us from from the old company is very important person in establishing our culture but she talks a lot about kindness as as a principal of the company. And it's really. It's really true and I think she's been the kind of guardian of it but it's the way people think about working together and how they help each other and support each other and then that ties into I think a bunch of other ethical principles not just about integrity journalistic integrity business integrity. But you know diversity to Kinda workplace. We want to create the kind of society. We WanNA see bottled in the company So people have a lot of feelings about it. And when you have a young workforce those getting that stuff and having that all be relevant meaningful people. People is crucial in recruitment and retention. Because you've got a not just be a place where people can do interesting work. I think you've got to be a place where people WANNA work. How do you get across your values to someone? Who's coming in and thinking of working for you. I think they have to. I think that They don't hear it from this. See I'm hopefully. They do hear it from the CEO. But I think people are only believe it when they hear it from peers and see that peers are having that kind of experience in the place. They work and kind of hide. You can't hide who you are especially as a company right is a person so maybe a little bit but as a company were just will spread and what it's like there the values come they they do come through and I think it's especially true with startup companies because they grow up so quickly that they end up being kind of projections of the values and beliefs of the of the founders. And you know I think that's true. Facebook AND ONE WAY UBER ANOTHER WAY. But it's even more true to at a smaller business. Everything that you you believe gets reflected in some way and the and the company thanks again to Jacob Weisberg and Malcolm glad while of Pushkin Industries you can hear more of Dell Small Business Pod France by searching Dell Technologies Small Business Pot on radio DOT com spotify or apple podcasts. Special thanks to Emily Roster Carly migliori. Julia Barton Heather Fain and Jason Gambro. I'm Michael Lewis.
Norah Jones Begins Again
"Can you see with your ears. What does exhilaration sound like? Can the weather predict Byu. Only Lexus asked questions actions like these because they believe the most amazing machines aren't inspired by machines. They're inspired by you drive a lexus. And you'll end end up wondering what amazing ideas will you inspired an expert discover. The answer. Is that lexus dot com slash curiosity collections. Experience Amazing feel This is wintertime song nor Jones album. That came up. This past. Spring begins again. Malcolm Gladwin Bruce Hallam absolutely fallen in love with his tomb. Wilko's Frontman Jeff. tweedy started writing it some time ago before. Discarding it somewhere along the way during the recording session with Nora Jones to them picked it back up and brush it off together to make this Through who is can can you case you. I don't remember nor Jones had a massive hit. Seventeen years ago with her debut. Single don't know lie. Just basically become a standard in American songbook thanks to minimalist performance after that. She did it run of Solo albums but also did a lot of collaborating. Solid Ray Charles's south Nelson whole albums with producer. Danger Mouse but recently nores discovered a new collaborating. She talks with Malcolm Bruce about why this new way feel so good just takes a seat at the piano and play some new songs on record and also talks about some of the way. She coped fame in two thousand and two. This is broken record season. Three liner notes for the digital age. I'm I'm Justin Richmond. He was Malcolm in Bruce's conversation nor Jones from bridge studio in Brooklyn. Bruce night are mildly obsessed with wintertime. And we thought we would start there. the sound not the season the song we wanna go as deep as you go on that song bird comes from and how you went about writing it and well I. I don't want to disappoint you too much on that one but I went to record with Jeff tweedy in Chicago and which was really amazing find. We wrote several songs together and this was one that he sort of had the scraps already. Yeah lying around. So we picked it up and set it off and tweaked it and put some clothes on it and changed it around. And then no SORTA came even their because it's when did you first meet Jeff tweedy. It must be at least ten or fifteen years ago no more because I think I met him for the first time on my first record when I do the tools Holland show so that must have been two thousand two. Gosh yeah it's been a long time and we'll go did it as well and I was already a fan 'cause that it was right when Yankee Hotel Foxtrot was out and Over the years. I've just sort of seen him around a lot. We work with a lot of the same people. And we've always been really friendly friendly WILCO. Had Me and my band plus boots come hang out with them. When they opened up for Neil they let us sit in on Jesus etc mm-hmm which is really vine Bush would? Yeah which you've done too. So yeah so we covered Jesus Etcetera in this band. Aman called listen boots. Sasha Josh Adopt Sitting Catherine Popper myself and We did the bridge school with them. When you're an cabins Osher brassy and cat goes up to tweety and says hey it did are you gonNa do Jesus Cetera in your set music? I don't know we might do that. And she's like well we're putting in an are set and we're going I so so we literally just like go ahead and play their song before they went on. We just enjoyed each other's like kinda rubbing each other after. No it is the so. There's two categories here. There are categories stories. The people that you're fans of categories of people that you want to work with are they the same or are they different. Well I think in making lists of collaborating collaborating with people because this is what I'm trying to do right now is just do these singles and work with different people and with low pressure stakes. You know like just one song is the only goal And I figured out that. Yes they are different. I can be a fan of someone and have no idea how to insert myself into their world or them into mine that that doesn't mean it can't happen once you get in the room it might be totally magical but unless I have some kind of a idea of something i WanNa try then. I'm not going to just recharge. Somebody's let's go get in a room and just stare at each other so easy. I can imagine hard for me to. I understand that you would listen to Wilco and meet Jeff tweedy and say oh that makes sense. Yeah I mean I think we should probably do record together at some point and it was so fun and you know we both play play enough of enough instruments to sort of just have the two of us with the drummer. His son Spencer tweety was playing drums. And we we did all the stuff with just the three of us and That kind of recording is really fun so you have this idea now that you want to do these kind of one offs with people at our. Where did that? How did you come to that? It's it's a really sounds like a really really but I'm surprised that more people don't do that but I'm I think a lot of people do to it but they don't call it what it is maybe was actually my husband's idea. He will he was saying. You have all these resources to do something easy like this. Why don't you do it? It's like Gosh. Why don't I that's a great idea? And what a fun way to just make music. I have little kids you know I don't want to mine. Japan is very short. Just like everybody's nowadays days but you know it's it's really fun to be musical and be doing things and have it come out quicker than if you do a full album you know. And why is he. What are the nature of the Internet and everything? It's it's it's good but a naive question. Why is it easier to to work with someone and who knows offended? Haven't actually worked before then. It is to work with someone who you've been writing songs with making music with for ten years. Well for me I mean. I don't like to take a long time to record music or write songs or I mean I think about a song. If it's not done you know it's not done and you want to tweak it but you you know some people going in. They take three years to make an album. That's not how I get bored and I want to move on to something else so for me. I mean it's fine in three days in a studio is someone as plenty to get one song And in in all these cases we've gotten three to seven songs each session which has been great and maybe not. All of them are amazing but It's really fun. It's just a fun way to work. It's low pressure to get somebody to commit to something somebody. Okay who. Maybe I don't know though that well or is very busy I for me. It's not scary so much as it is it. It has been a little bit stressful. Because there have been many of these sessions where have gone in. And I'm so underprepared I'm like okay. I don't really have a full song at all in case we can't come up with anything because I try to have something in case you know we're drawing blanks in there What is what is what is another day dumb question? What is something something I have all? These voice mails on my phone. You know that are making the bats. Because that's the only peace and quiet I get you know some are just like a small snippet of malady is Latina. Whatever it is and sometimes those little something stick in my head for months or years uncle back to them? And and that's like when I worked with Thomas Bartlett. That's all I had was ahead of few lyrics and I had a few melodies and we just turn them into songs in the studio and I guess my the point is like sometimes. I'm a little stressed and underprepared. When I'm going into these sessions but I know and I have faith in the process and that when I get into the studio and I can focus and like all the noise isn't surrounding me and I'm with somebody who inspires me and hopefully they are the same Then it happens and I don't know we haven't gotten nothing yet. I'll say that. How many how many ideas would you have on your phone right now? All right now. I'm pretty dry but I have a lot of old ideas. Yeah she can't change phones. Well yeah exactly. You're walked in and locked Dan. I miss my voice recorder sometimes with the longest time. That's elapsed between a stupid idea and song. It actually appeared album. There is a song I wrote with This Front Ilhan Ursa Henna used to be in a band called wax poetic when I moved to New York in nineteen ninety nine and we wrote the song together and Band didn't make another album. And it Kinda petered out and I it continued without me okay. I wasn't in it anymore but then I kinda dug up that song and I put it on my third out about. That's how many years later I have. You beat yes as I just did a podcast episode. That was inspired by our interview that I did in nineteen ninety two. Wow and I thought about it for that along for twenty five years and always wanted to do something and finally did it so I love my point. Is You know you could visit the stuff when you're Zion. Yep Yep these ideas don't really leave your sort of being until they become something but I think for a lot of people listening to old ideas. It would make them intensely uncomfortable because they would hear the mistakes the things that aren't so good. Are you like that at all can you. Could you turn off. Whatever critical the voice you have said? Yeah I'm not too critical of myself because I I learned when I when I first first record came out. I had just started writing songs because because that voice I could not turn off until then I wrote songs in high school and they were so horrible. I was so embarrassed and I never wanted to do it again. Did you perform well like I went to this performing arts high school which was amazing and so we were all very encouraged so like it ended up on the high school tape. So Yeah I you know it was out there I was like I wanna put it back in. I don't like it but Yeah when you're young. That stuff can be a little embarrassing and so I definitely shut down and then I got into songwriting and move to New York only had two two and a half songs on my first album because I was really new at it and then after after that after a couple of albums I got more into it and then it got really kind of down on myself frustrated and then I had this whole thing with songwriting and and I finally realized. I don't have to show anybody anything. Just finished the damn song do as much as you want to make it as cheesy as it is or whatever and then in in the end you can discard it. You don't have to show the world if you don't like it but see it through. Its lesson for a lot of things but yes songwriting songwriting. Because that's what kind of free you up to freight me up. Yeah because you did start writing after he became famous starting more. Yeah Yeah and you learned the guitar. Yeah after he became famous so that takes nerve. I mean for me. I was just trying to stay. Inspired the the fame in the Kinda crazy whirlwind. That was my first record It took a lot of took a lot away from like the point which was saying inspired in making music. I really loved you. Know MHM were you working with somebody. In pairings you describing now How often do they make you realize you may have? I've been wrong about something like talking about how you have. These things don't work. How often does the second voice in a room say? Wait a minute that does work. I love it when that happens. Everything does happen. Yeah it happens sometimes. You know when you get in a room with somebody you like. Well I have this idea. Groom abused Booder. Like it's your nature to be self mine anyway to be self deprecating not like check out this awesome. I you know like oh I don't know. Is this dumb. Check this out. No that's not dumb. That's like what you want here for. Sure their particular collaborators who are just good at that hearing things that you don't hear Brian Burton. I mean danger mouse is. He's really good at that. He's amazing at it and not only musically. He has hooks for days but also lyrically he's really good at it. He was someone I was really self conscious like. I wasn't nervous about the project but but when it came down to the lyrics sometimes I was sort of nervous to show him my lyric. Sometimes 'cause it was very it was all very personal. Lyrics are very different than showing a musical ICAL idea. They're they're way more exposed. I think in naked especially for someone. WHO's a little late to the lyric? You know so I was definitely more self of conscious showing him my lyrics and I don't know that he was but his lyrics are really great. The more we wrote together the more self righteous I got because I realize his lyrics six were so great but I was also very comfortable with him site that while he's like my my big brother let's Just do this. But he's really good at. That is wrong that that comes to mind from your collaboration with him. That you think is so the best example of the two of you. Can you get the whole album was super collaborative There wasn't a lot of like scraps that were brought to the table. As much as you know some other things but lyrically like I've been going back and I love playing songs from that album. Sometimes their songs from old albums that I just that is still like but I. I don't really connect with at at this moment in time doesn't mean I won't again it doesn't mean I never have but that's playing live. That's kind of how does make songs that you're connecting with in the moment and some of the songs when I throw them into the set from that record is wow. He's lyrics are so great. I'm so happy you know. Yeah we've been doing a song called Sega by Patrick Beverley got I think did you try and do it in the Than had such a great sound. It's it's his. Yeah A- and I don't mean that like he makes the same sound over and over like Brian Eno he sort of stuck. He's created a little universe somewhere that you kind of flowed into do try and I'm kind of reproduce that on stage or do in a different setting I did more when we toured that album and we had a great band who could do it without it being contrived you know like Willie had. It was a five piece band. It was me a keyboard organ player Guitar Bass and drums. It wasn't like it wasn't like we. We were obsessed with recreating the owls. But we did a good job of of doing it. now however I'm really into stripping it back a little bit and we're not trying to recreate it and I'm into rearranging some things and especially with album because the soundscape was so specific. Unless it's a natural thing for me to recreate you create live I'd rather not try to be married to the sounds and just serve the song because they're great songs even without all that and and that's the great thing about that album women come back Malcolm and Bruce. Pick back up with their obsession with the song wintertime. That Noah wrote with Wilko's Jeff tweedy broken record is presented by Lexus which asks what amazing ideas. Will you inspire next Ken. What you Dr help? Keep you alert. That's a question. Only Lexus would ask. Distraction and fatigue are the primary causes of road accidents. Lexus curious could away vehicle is engineered. Help make the person driving it. More alert to find out. They tested drivers over multiple multiple hours measuring how adrenaline levels decrease. They monitored the driver's head vibrations and youth cameras track their pie. Movements ultimately calculating that reducing fertile vibrations by only one to hurt can significantly reduce fatigue theft leads them to adjust everything everything from the suspension and seek construction to the steering and braking systems until they had a car capable of keeping. Its own driver presenting a vehicle. That stirring more ways than one Alexis. Yes discover what amazing ideas you'll inspire next at Alexis dot com slash curiosity. We're back with more from nor Jones. So Jeff tweedy do call them up so we do. Hey twee COM tweet. No kidding how did you how did you I want I want. I want the absolute details on this huge. This call him out of the blue and said Hey. Let's work together. Well Jeff tweedy. I used to have his phone number but he stopped returning my my text than I got. This text wants from him. Like I hadn't heard firmament firmament two years he's like hey I just got all your texts. I'm sorry I don't really check my phone which I was like dude. That's fine but that was a long time ago but so I didn't know if I had his info but Tom Schick is a great engineer. Who I used to work with a lot and he moved to Chicago to be Jeff's FS house engineer at a studio and he so Tom's an old friend of mine so I had just told Tom I said? Hey here's one trying to see if tweety into it. I would love to do this with you. And Him 'cause that that would be a dream to go to Chicago. Check out the studio finally work with Tom Again and work with Jeff. Let's keep going on this narrative. Show up you're you walk in do you. What do you have with you when you enter the studio to Record Jeff tweedy? I had a couple scraps very under prepared but I had A. I had a couple little tiny ideas. One of them was completely written spontaneously on the couch and not the version that's recorded pretty much inch with song was that It's called Song with no name and we were just sitting. I think that's the first thing we did the first day we were both Kinda shy. Even though we knew we shouldn't be I I think he was a little shy and I was a little shy about just jumping in and giving all our ideas you know were sensitive. People where artists right so We sitting on the couch. He has a collection insane collection of guitars. So I just picked one up and it was tuned really weird and so we both just started playing. I'm not a great guitar player. But like it's just a little acoustic part and he and I just go start. Playing this part together and Tom is such the amazing personal work with because he just had mike set up and you just press required and so we just started playing it and then I started like GonNa and then I started singing and I was just singing. gibberish words that were just coming to me and it was cool and then you know three days later we he went back to listen to that because we kind of moved on and started doing the the real stuff and then Tom was like check this off in the first day and it was awesome and we we both really loved it. We added a bunch of other instruments to it and we just kept exactly what we had done on the couch. There was one lyric. I remember thinking as Tom I. I wish I could change that where he's at well. You can't really change it unless it sounds really similar. And we double your vocal and you could kind of flood it but because it was just we were on the cash and we were on singing singing singing with the guitar everything so I just left it. But we'd how much when you first start with with. Everything made up in the room on the couch of that Song Yes Melody and lyrics in the the main guitar part. Yes when you start that process of improvisation the very first iteration how how much do you have to have like ten seconds to have twenty seconds like when you first comes to you. Well we started doing it. I mean I don't know how much he recorded before we sort of had the take but probably we flaying like five minutes. Maybe just planning planning part. And I was humming along and then He's a guy. Well let's just try with what you have and then and then it started what's He. What's Jeff Tweedy tweety doing? When you're you're humming and playing on the couch? He's playing on the catch to his way. Yeah Yeah He's a beautiful guitar player. Sarah well that's the thing out these collaborations like I might have nothing and be kind of panicked. What have we get nothing? But then you sit with somebody who's inspiring and it's spoonful review. I guess he so any so incredibly credibly prolific and has been so that way for so long that I guess there's no anxieties about him drawing a blank now and it was interesting interesting is I had this one idea because the way I work in this to you Lou worked with Bryan in the way of worked recently is is sort of just like let's write it all down John Okay. What about this idea? What about this and he had this idea when we started this other song again has not been released but He really wanted to take get home. He said I do my best lyrics tweaking. When I'm like at four in the morning I'll go to bed? And then he says he wakes up and he does it and then he goes back to bed and I was like okay but I'm dying do it now. I want to do it right. You know it was Kinda like I was super happy to have him do I. I didn't it wasn't that I needed to be part of it or control it. I was just impatient. You know show up the next day. The next having having done that I think it was on wintertime. He tweaked some stuff but yeah and then there was this other song where I actually did that because I think he kind of inspired me a little bit and so and then this other song I had done it you I didn't wake up at four. Am but I came from the noisy. Do you typically once. You've got a melody melody. Then words later not really no usually melody words come together at least some words and then those words are so cemented in the melody. It's impossible missile to remove them. It's like really hard to change the lyrics But sometimes there's a melody that has no words and sometimes more more recently and not in the past for me but more recently I've had a lot of words with no melodies but usually it's both and then they kinda you Kinda I don't know it's easier to Kinda Morph Morph from a lyric melody. That's already married Is it hard once. You've got the words to come come up with a melody. Then it's really fun to find a melody for like a Poem Realistic Because I've done that with other people's words before and it is very freeing. It seems more free But we have a melody and you're trying to fit lyrics into those nooks and crannies. That is definitely hard harder harder unless it's just already inspired with it. We Interview Linda. Perry who worked with Dolly PARTON. I know you've worked with Olli Parton. And and she told this amazing story they did. I guess six songs for the the dumping soundtrack and they worked all these songs than Dolly Parton the whole time so I know right much anymore anymore. It's really anyway. She went back. She wrote the lyrics to all six songs in Oneday. Who did lend it it? No no funded. She just went ahead all right on your hair. I'm Dolly this. And they were. They were Gray Grad and fabulous wires. She's an amazing songwriter. writing is a weird thing saying I used to get freaked out because it didn't have any ideas or wasn't inspired and have anything happening and I have a lot of really close friends who are songwriters songwriters and Sometimes I see them go this through the same thing but I've seen myself go in and out of it and it's like something always always happens. Eventually you go through phases you go through phases where you're not writing and then you go through phases where you're writing a lot and sometimes there's an in between but it is nice to not freak out when you're not 'cause you know it'll eventually come again. Did you listen to a lot of country music growing up. Yeah I mean my mom is from Oklahoma Glaucoma so my grandparents and my mom absolutely. I grew up on Willie Nelson. Bob Wilson Men Linda Ronstadt and a lot of great music. But it wasn't until I moved to New York when I was twenty that I kinda realized. Oh Yeah I love that. He's I didn't really think about myself as ever seen that kind of music. Nick and then I moved to New York. I'm from Texas people. Give me some. Give me some three words and then when I started writing songs I started writing on guitar because I lived in tiny shoebox in the East village and have a piano and all those jazz gourds that I learned in high school and college that that I love so much I ensured know how to play those on guitar. I knew like five quarts on guitar so the First Song I wrote when I moved to New York and I finally got out of my head and it was probably four in the morning and I wrote come away with me which is really just a few chords and it's really kind of a country song. I mean that's sort of what it is and I wrote it on guitar and it can barely play it so happened. If you'd moved to Nashville Not New York. You're all right. I don't know I probably would have gone full like anti country. I don't know or I would have gone full country. It we were born. I'm in New York. Yeah and then. Your mother moved to move to Dallas when I was four shoes from Oklahoma and her vocabulary sick. I don't know why we moved. Actually but I feel very from Texas but yeah I was born in New York and I moved back here with US twenty But she's something of a character shoes in the music business to just have a lot of records records that you would listen to. She was a music fan. I mean yes she did. I look I grew up listening to Ray Charles and aretha Franklin and old country music. Nick Judy Garland she and Brasilia music. She lived in Brazil when she was in her early twenty s and she had all these great Brazilian records. Hugh member I record or to that kind of from her would ever got you interested in being a musician. Well she She he was always playing aretha Franklin and at Christmas she would always play like Luciano Pavarotti and we went to church. We went when we moved to. I mean I don't remember number much about New York as I was three or four when we left but when we moved to Texas we started Gordon this Methodist Church and I joined the church choir and the the choir teacher was a former Catholic so we were singing all these Latin hymns which was very funny for this Texas Methodist Church but So that's kind of where I got my start and I think she she recognized my joy in music and she got a piano and got me piano lessons and stuff where we'll go back to Jeff tweedy wintertime with you. I'm I still want to know about so. You said something at the very beginning that he had a few discarded scraps and and you guys brushed them off So how much of a scrap did he have. You remember It was a pretty big one. I mean the song was definitely sort of a shell of itself and he played me a bunch of we got and got stuck one day like the second day. We were a little stuck and I was like you know I I showed you my now. Show me your scrap. Basically do you have anything and I mean. He is prolific and he records constantly early and he has his own studio so yes. He's got a lot of scraps and they're fully like some of them are recorded with a full band but They're not necessarily finished or or the way that they end up. Any play me bunch of stuff and it was all really cool. But there's this thing that's happened happened to me over the last ten years where it's it's become harder and harder for me to cover other people's songs because I I I'm enjoying making getting my own songs now and so for me. You know to connect with someone else's words and music at enough to sing them and it's not that I don't WanNa sing them but to to be able to own it. You have to own it to cover song. I have to basically sing it like it's mine so nothing was completely catching me in that way and then and then wintertime. I am came office. What was it in wintertime that you reacted you know? Was it the lyric or the feeling of like the feeling of it. The lyrics were Kinda half there and yeah I just it just felt good. I like the tempo. I liked the VIBE. It's funny when you write with somebody else. Everybody has has a chord structure that they tend towards and his is specific to him. And it sounds like Jeff you know what is that a lot OUGHTA minor twos instead of four courts and I liked it but I liked it had a real flavor who had a real him flavor. You know now when we come back nor joan sings she breaks down her song wintertime. And explains how the minor to court is part of the WILCO. Sound broken record is presented by Lexus. which asks what amazing ideas will you inspire next now? It's time for our mark of the maker segment presented by maker's mark at the maker's mark. distillery they tell you that if they could make their bourbon any faster Mr they would. That's because maker's mark has been handmade in its own beautifully inefficient ways since one thousand nine hundred ninety three. They still slow cook their unique mash bill using soft red winter wheat smoother taste and rotating the barrels is the age and the houses of greater consistency insistance tasting panel not a date on the calendar decides when the barrels are mature. All of that time and attention to each bottle is what it takes to create straight up Ruben with character and character machine algorithm broken record is devoted to artists who who care about their craft in the same way who have the mark of the maker like. You're you're listening to now. Norah Jones Bruce were interviewing her at a studio in Brooklyn. It's like a Tuesday mornings chatting away. Then she gets up to play and it's like time stopped nothing at stake. They weren't ten thousand screaming fans but she made the moment it just as the artists broken record have done with their music makers mark crafts their bourbon with care and they asked that you enjoyed joy. Same Way support for broken record comes from WICKS DOT COM wicks. You can create your very own professional websites. Choose as a template you love and customize it by adding text images videos with hundreds of intuitive design features. You can tell your story exactly the way you want want even more from your website you can easily start a blog launch an online store or traded events. Sure everything and a quick on social media drive even more traffic to your site. Seo Tools to get found fool flicks has all the tools you need exact website. He wants she can even create a beautiful website while listening to broken records. It's that easy over. One hundred and fifty million people choose twix grades our website. Great Yours today. You can get started right away but going to wigs dot com. That's W. I. X. Dot com slash broken record. Begin ten percent off. That's I W I x DOT COM slash record to get ten percent off. We're back with Noah Jones down the song she co wrote with. Jeff tweedy wintertime. The time Severi structures really different. It's where does he go after that too. What's the Oh? He's a minor six and then he goes kind of chromatic and then and then he's got this thing that sounds like a chorus but it's really not the chorus but it starts like the goriest it's like But it's really just the And then he goes. Oh that was the fake out chorus. But here's the real it's GonNa be a four lane Much Ano- yeah no victim. You are here and then minor to Allah make it through That's what he wanted US locally. So what's your so. That's our favorite stockman. Yo what's your favorite song. I really like I mean I like them all but I really like just a little bit. I really liked that one. Because we've been playing it live and it's really fun to play. Uh I also really like my heart is full because live. It's taken on a whole new life and that sort of like you know what I'm saying about these songs being alive. Yeah staying alive keeping them alive. It's other things changed when you're playing that one more well my heart is full. I did in the in the studio with Thomas Barton I and he's got all these cool electric's in it's amazing but live is just bass drums piano and organ and sonically we can take it to an intense. Its place but it's not the same exact sonics you know what I mean. Can you give us a taste of that. One He's open is Iowa man mind he's My hands at acking Atkins say people. Hurry people preaching people watching some listening. Burn some huge in many talking. Those were being We we will we will can. Oh it's like more primal then `electronic which is sort of how it is on the album. Anyway what's the relationship in your mind between the live version and the and the album version do do do you start to favor one over the other. Yeah I think I usually start to favor the live version because it becomes its own thing and it's hard to You know you can't go back in time and change it but but that doesn't mean that I always do when you're in the middle of a tour and you're starting to feel something differently. It's it's a funny thing songs morph and usually they start in the studio not playing them. Live a bunch before you go into record though I've done that before too. And that is a whole other thing you find an arrangement that will really works live and then you go in to try to capture it but it it never quite has the magic of singing a song for the first time Kinda and capturing it for the first time for me just depends so when you're sitting down with us that song. I don't think that have a lot of piano on the no. There's no piano on the Recorded version but on live. It's instead of you know instead of trying to get a delay delay and repeat my voice. I'm repeating it with piano. And I really dig it. And then we added an instrumental section intensity. That's not on the record. So it's fine. Don't stop. This is so much fun Give give me this youtube another one another one that you really love off the album which which is just a little bit just just a little bit. That's right. Yeah how did that one. WHO's how does that win? Come about my friend. Sarah Oda Had a song that she gave me 'cause I was going into the studio and I was completely unprepared again. This is your life except I was so prepared. We got seven songs longs in that three day session so actually was super inspired but more scattered. Maybe I had a Lotta snippets. I had some finished songs. 'cause I was going with Brian. blading Chris Thomas who is a little band I I had been playing with anyway. She gave me this song in case I needed some thing because I've recorded her songs dogs before and The song was cool. She had melody and everything. It wasn't unfinished really. It just didn't have any instruments on. It was just her singing the melody and the lyrics sheet and We were kind of going in a different direction that Song Kinda got pushed on the back burner and we were kind of in a a lull and so I went to the Oregon instead of the piano. And I just started sort of playing Like a pedal kind of a droning sound and then with the foot pedals. I think I was going uh and then Chris came in and played. It and Brian came up with this amazing groove over. It and I started singing her lyrics. 'cause they were just there or just because I've seen gibberish but then I just saw her lyrics started singing her lyrics over what we were playing. Just completely separate from the song she had written Uh and I took her lyrics and I accidentally put him into this new song and then we called it space jam and we never listened to it again and then the engineer sent it it to me the next month and was like this was kind of cool. Do you remember this and I asked her as a can I can I you know. Is it cool that I use the lyrics in this way instead. She's like. Yeah that's fine as long as I can record the song in either someday. I said that's fine but what I really liked about. It is that her rhyme. I am structure. Her original song was the. I'M NOT GONNA sing you the melody but it was like I'll send you the rhythm of the way her malady it was it was. I'm not the one you can't ignore. I'm not like those you've had before. That was like the rhythm of it and so I I I feel like the rhythm of the rhyme scheme got kind of flipped around and I don't know I I think that's kind of interesting because it was written with one intention but then flipped around. It's kind of backwards and an Koi. Can you give so so. Here's here's the song how it ended up. Oh love You can I'm not you have The I'm not well A. L. You can't dismiss Missile oh So you know I added things here and there and her basic lyric is just the it was kinda turned upside down rhythmically totally unintentionally. It was just sitting in front enemy. You know but does it happen a lot with visit. You get you the people things people give you. I don't often do that but I did write another song on this ep from poem from a friend called begin again and you know her lyric was I feel like the rhythm of the rhyme scheme was a little bit more true to what she wrote. But yeah like I said I don't do it a ton but I do you like the idea of lyrics music coming from two different brains and putting them together is completely not have probably the one one person would think you know that. You sound like artistically. You're you're growing more more open. Yeah for sure is that just that just come from increased self calm but it was the was the reason for that is at best. Because usually don't you think people usually go in the opposite direction as they get. You know I don't want to though I think I've become more and more open for sure and I like it. I've I've been more inspired fired by it. I learn new things and I'm better for you know I know what I'm good at. I know what people some some people think of me as what I do and that's fine but I like to open it up and sort of try different things. I don't think I ever you're go outside of myself in a way. That's not true to myself. Thanks to know Jones. We're talking playing us through some of the tracks on her album. Begin again if you couldn't tell Malcolm and bruce with throat can check out more of the album by visiting broken record podcast AH CAST DOT COM and subscribing to our place for this episode. You can also sign up for a behind the scenes newsletter. While you're there broken record is produced with Health Jason Gabriella Nilo La Belle. Our theme music is by the Great. Kenny beats stay tuned for next week's episode. Our very first live taping of the podcast. It's glad we'll in conversation with flea from the Red Hot Chili early peppers at the palace theater in Los Angeles so thanks for listening super next week. I'm just enrichment.
The rest of your life begins now.
"Were the money money extra, I'm Chris Hill. You're probably not familiar with Richard Nisbett and his work but Malcolm glad well is ms bit is a social psychology professor at the University of Michigan and Gladwin once called Nisbet the most influential thinker of his alike top. Few years ago I talked with professor and his bit about the principle of sunk costs. It's something that investors deal with, but it's also something encounters consumers. The idea that if you buy a ticket to something and you're not enjoying yourself, you stick with it because pay you pay good money for that ticket. It's understandable to think that way. But it's probably not the right decision I think. Hugh of walkout movies at all and Economists would say so much the worse for us economists I should say I've studied how economists actually. Make decisions and everyday life, and they are a different species from the rest of US I mean. They do walk out a movies they do leave expensive meals. UNEATEN. they abandoned projects that they spent a tremendous amount of time on. they cut bait and and let me give an example of what's. kind of some cost trap that most of us are going to be so likely to fall into. Suppose, you bought a ticket for a basketball game a month ago you paid one hundred bucks for. Tonight's night of the game. but the stars not playing nothing hangs on the upcoming game. And it started to rain cats and dogs, and you have to walk six blocks subway You'RE GONNA say, Gee, do I really WanNa do that but there's a compelling feeling you don't want to waste that hundred bucks. And economists has hook wrong. You can't waste that hundred bucks. You don't have it anymore you're framing the problem. you know and the economist motto which is very freeing I think is the rest of my life begins now I mean, you can't get that money back. You can pay twice. You can pay once for the ticket and wants for sitting there. Watching a board game. and that's why they walk away from. things they put a lot of time energy or money into and they're right about that. If, you want more insights from the good professor check out his book mindware tools for smart thinking. I'm Chris Hill. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
Malcolm GladwellI Am
"Malcom gladwin is a stone cold genius who loves A grade sports argument. I went onto bill. Simmons podcast and I had this totally ludicrous thing that I want to talk about. Which was I was like? Could a basketball team made up of Nigerians? An all time basketball team made up of Nigerians be the greatest basketball time and then I ended it. I amended until as I said all right I have to corollaries one is. I'm going to add west Indians because almost Indians not all mostly I'm Jamaican. Where am I what am I people from? We're from originally like I'm Ibo right most Jamaicans cable so I add the Caribbean and then I said and just refund. That's also add the rest of Southern Africa and then I construct the students. Tony Ridiculous Caribbean so busy. I say out can Africa and the Caribbean put together an all time team. It's better than an african-american team a euro team at a white American team. It's the third one. Maybe not. The answer is yes. We don't have time to do this but I will convince you. I can't convince you to Africa and the Caribbean in basketball. All Time team and also your co you qualify by or Nigeria. Will I started? I start with all of ethnic did not all? I'm only adding. I added Southern Africa. 'cause I WANNA have Steve Nash and Joel Embiid on my team. Wade Steve Nash. Born in Johannesburg. He's Canadian. No my rule is that you. Are you qualify? Virtue of your parents. Place a birth. So get all of Steve. Nash Who Play Thompson. Really? He's Bamyan are are are taking. Tim. Duncan Tim Duncan Hang Hau Kim Elijah Akeem Joel Embiid Yoenis Clay Andre iggy Dow Victor Depot Drink Igwe Dolla. Where's he from Nigeria okay? He's full on your deal and Steve. Nash I got a back court of Nash and Thomson. I got a frontcourt of Dunkin embiid. Jaanus Patrick Ewing forward a okay. Right right right right from the islands. This really is in the island. This team is insane when Patrick's coming off the bench. But how just doesn't matter but Kim Jaanus and but sure but but the other team has Lebron Kobe. Japan Michael I know. Just for starters and Steph curry just restarting Potanin Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell. Just just try go ahead. That's the African American teachers. Try Playing Lebron Jordan. Notice what we doing that thing ooh together. Thomas can't come in and Magic Johnson coming in. Can I read this out rushing your your appetite? Engineer Crushes Team Sport Play. You cannot Jordan Jordan and abroad and Kobe on the court at the same time out of your mind. You have all centers you have one forward you have you have guards and a bunch of centers. You got a problem with that because the modern game nobody in the known you already. Janis on Lebron an WHO's covering Jordan who's covering stats got covering step. I got clay and Andrea Diallo. Who in their day or two of the greatest lockdown defenders of the last twenty five years in the NBA? I got a clay and national or two of the pure as shooters and I have argued with the greatest defensive front court in the history of basketball. I Have Yoenis Hekim Akeem Patrick embiid. I mean I have wilt Bill Russell Shack. It's close by. Queen is not close if I had if I was restricted to white Americans. Then maybe may point so I do it as long ludicrous. It's ludicrous ludicrous. And you're right I'm wrong but so what is it that there are people took offense. How on Earth? What is they were like? Oh you know you Kim like first of all all the things to get worked up about in two thousand eighteen in America about race. This is the thing you have said about for more with Malcolm could a patriot dot com slash Taurus? Show and sign up for just five dollars a month. We get four patron exclusive episodes. Every month in your support helps are growing team. Continue getting great guests and making great episodes.
Wondery presents The Next Big Idea featuring Steven Johnson
"Never in human history. Have we been so bombarded with new information? Ideas are coming at US every day from different directions. Where do you even begin? You can start with wondering podcast the next big idea from business and science to health and culture each week. This show will bring you a fantastic new big idea. These are the sorts of world shaking ideas that can change the way you live work and think this week Malcolm Gladwin talks with American innovations. Innovations host and bestselling author Steven Johnson about long-term decision making and the ripple effects of our choices for anyone striving to make better choices in their life. This is must-listen. You're about to hear preview of the next big idea while you're listening. Subscribe to one the next big idea on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you're listening now and get ready to open your mind because the right idea at the right moment has the power to transform your life. It's a hot day in August, two thousand ten. A CIA asset is tailing a White Suzuki g better, the Peshawar valley, and into the parched hills of northeast Pakistan. Under normal circumstances, he would have given up a long time ago. But today he's under orders to follow this Zucchini to the end of the earth unless he runs out of gas I. The analyst back at headquarters are obsessed with this zukis driver ah Koi named Al Kuwaiti. They know he's got close ties to the terrorist network. al-Qaeda and they think he might eventually point them to the networks founder Osama bin Laden. Finally on the outskirts of the city of DISSUKI quits the main road and heads down a rutted dirt track. It comes to a stop at a compound surrounded by fifteen foot, high white concrete. Why Kuwaiti doing here. Could bin Laden inside. As it happens that reconnaissance mission is the first step in nine months journey that will lead to the famous raid by seal team six that ends in Bin Laden's death and much of that journey will take place in the imagination. Because to make the decisions they need to make. The analysts have to see things. They can't actually see both now and in the future. For months they gather information from experts from aerial photos from assets on the ground. They look at the smallest details to try to define what they mean. Why did the people in the compound trash instead of having collected? Why don't they have a land line or Internet? Who is the tall man who paces each day under a tarpaulin? Sure that the has been laws. They begin to plan how to capture. Kill him. They invite ideas from their team. No matter how outlandish they could throw, stink bombs over the wall to flush the occupants out. They could place a loudspeaker, nearby and broadcast as the Voice of Allah commanding, Bin, Laden, the come outside, they could get plans to fly over and bomb the compound. They could send in helicopters full of special forces. They try to predict every possible consequence of every possible action. A bomb made it impossible to identify bin. Laden a raid might provoke a counterattack. They also analyze failures of the past the Bay of Pigs invasion in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, one, the botched rescue of American hostages in Iran in one, thousand, nine, hundred ninety. Over the course of those nine months, the CIA in their military partners come up with thirty seven different plans to get into the compound. In the end they choose one. And it works on May second two thousand eleven. The Navy Seals launch surprise attack by helicopter and kill Osama bin, Laden. For the bestselling author, Steven, Johnson the Bin Laden raid isn't just an example of notch military intelligence. It's also a model for confronting the big decisions. We all need to make in our own lives. From wandering. I'm Rufus Chris, and this is the next big idea. I founded the next big idea club along with the authors, Malcolm glad well, Susan Cain Dan Pink and Adam grant to connect people to some of the boldest new thinking shaping our culture and our future each week on the podcast. We bring you one idea with the power to change the way you see the world. This week how to make lives biggest decisions? The store you heard up top about the bin Laden raid comes from a fantastic book by my old friend Steven. Johnson called farsighted how we make the decisions that matter the most. Stephen is the author of ten other books. including one called the ghost ma'am about a devastating nineteenth century cholera epidemic in London, which should be essential reading today. Stevens also the host of the podcast American innovations for today's episode of the next big idea. He sat down with next big idea club curator Malcolm glad well in front of a live audience at Beta work studios in New York. This is a book that talks about how to make a decision the process the right way to approach difficult problem, and you choose one of your central stories the way the Pentagon chose to go after not. Why that story I spoke about a particular kind of decision. Right, it's it's a complex kind of long-term decision. You know it's not about the passing choices that we make every day in our lives. It's when you hit a real crossroads in your life when you have an important career decision or you're trying to decide whether to move somewhere if you're. A business and you're trying to watch a big product with all those kind of decisions that really require a certain amount of time, and it's making the argument that the most of us don't have a process for making those kinds of decisions and it turns out there. Actually has been a significant kind of advance in our understanding of how we make these kinds of decisions, and particularly in our ability to make predictions, because so much of a longterm decision is about predicting the future and predicting the consequence for actions and things like that. And, so it occurred to me that there would be an interesting book that would to look at those kinds of choices, because those are the choices of end up kind of defining our life, and we look where I went to college. What kind of career I ended up having? You know where I decided to live. Those I think we go to college a defining event in your life. I think that you you end up. Maybe just because of the people you meet more than This is exactly where I would raise a little bit of an eyebrow. Not to fix it on the college thing, but the thing is super interesting. To College thing would be extract is exactly the kind of thing that this sort of thoughtful analysis doesn't apply to? Because the thing that would make a college experience either useful or not useful is almost entirely unpredictable, but look I. Think you're right. In the sense that there is there's a huge amount of uncertainty with the decision like that, and there's a huge amount of uncertainty in any kind of choice, it has long-term consequences right because the future is really unpredictable, so the question is not like. How can you have absolute certainty about the consequences of this choice? part of the question is. I think it's important to acknowledge uncertainty right? It's important to recognize the parts of your vision that are not clear. where it is unpredictable, and then look at the parts of the of the choice that are more predictable and separate, those two things out subscribe to degrees, the next big idea on apple podcasts, spotify or wherever you're listening now and get ready to open your mind, because the right idea at the right moment has the power to transform your life. 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Little Happier: Whats the Best Time to Plant a Tree?
"This episode is brought to you by the new podcast go and see hosted by Malcolm. Glad well produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see as a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy of Janci Jen boot Sou- which means go and see for yourself and idea that stems from the belief that if you experience something yourself you have a better understanding of people and how to create something for them in the series. Lexus invites Gladwin to discover their unconventional thinking and processes firsthand find out. How a Japanese tea ceremony influenced the engineering of a car window. How the sound of an engine is tune like a musical composition to elicit certain emotions. How Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation? Gladwin learned that no detail is left behind and that a car company can learn more about cars by studying people go inside lexuses headquarters in Japan right along on top secret test track with a master driver. Sit in the expertly designed seat that actually lowers to welcome you into the vehicle. Follow glad dwell on his journey wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories like these. Hey listeners I have a quick request for you listen. I are thrilled because the happier with Gretchen Ribbon. Podcast was nominated for Webbie's People's Voice Award which is determined by online voters. If you'd like to show and you're so inclined we'd so appreciate it if you'd take a second to vote for the show you can visit. Webby awards DOT COM or click. The link in the show knows our podcast. Category is health and wellness. Voting closes at midnight Pacific on Thursday may seventh. Thank you gold. I'm Gretchen Rubin and this is a little happier I love. Maxims Fables Cohen's and teaching stories of all kinds. I'm writing my own collection of APHORISMS and I'm gathering my favorite proverbs. The best proverbs say one line what it would take a page to write and explain in a single short powerful line. They sum up a huge idea. For instance I love the proverb a stumble may prevent a fall. I wrote a lot about that proverb in better than before. My book about haven't changed in the chapter on the strategy of Safeguards. It perfectly sums up the idea that sometimes a small error can save us from making a bigger worse error. Getting a bad grade on a paper in sixth grade can save us from getting bad grade on a paper in eleventh grade. I also love the proverb when the student is ready. The teacher appears I wrote about that proverb in my book. The happiness project it's UNCANNY. How often that once? I'm ready to learn about something. Someone turns up to help me and teach me lately. I've been thinking a lot about another proverb. I love the best time to plant. A tree was twenty years ago. The second best time is now. It's a great reminder that we shouldn't spend our time wishing we'd been wiser in the past or had more forethought. We can't do something twenty years ago but we can do something now now. Maybe the second best time to start. But it's the time that we can start and we can remember that in twenty years. We'll look back and wish we'd start the best time to plant. A tree was twenty years ago. The second best time is now I'm Gretchen. Rubin and I helped. This makes your week a little happier.
Little Happier: I Remember Feeling the Warm Relief of Knowing What My Future Was.
"This episode is brought to you by the new podcast go and see hosted by Malcolm. Glad well produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see as a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy of Janci Jen boot Sou- which means go and see for yourself and idea that stems from the belief that if you experience something yourself you have a better understanding of people and how to create something for them in the series. Lexus invites Gladwin to discover their unconventional thinking and processes firsthand find out. How a Japanese tea ceremony influenced the engineering of a car window. How the sound of an engine is tune like a musical composition to elicit certain emotions. How Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation? Gladwin learned that no detail is left behind and that a car company can learn more about cars by studying people go inside lexuses headquarters in Japan right along on top secret test track with a master driver. Sit in the expertly designed seat that actually lowers to welcome you into the vehicle. Follow glad well on his journey starting march fifth wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these I'm Gretchen Rubin and this is a little happier more than fifteen years ago. I read the fascinating memoir. Mary Wells Lawrence's a big life in advertising Mary. Wells Lawrence is alleged. She was the first woman to be President of an Advertising Agency. And the first woman to be. Ceo of a company on the New York Stock Exchange this memoir career starting as a fledgling copywriter to head of the advertising agency. That came up with ads. Like flick. Your bic and I love new. York and PLOP PLOP FIZZ is relief. It is one story from. That book has stuck in my mind for a very long time. She's describing a period of her career when she's working as the copy chief of the fashion division of macy's she's writing all the advertising copy and she's very happy in that role then. One day she recounts people were gathering around the first TV sets that appeared. Not because the programs were enthralling but because the pictures moved the first time I watch television I felt exactly as if something important had taken an elevator ride up to my head and gotten off and turned on the late in my mind. I knew that I was going to do something and television. It was in my cards. I remember feeling the warm relief of knowing what my future was. I didn't know anyone who is creating television programs or commercials nevertheless whatever got off in my mind. That day was very clear. I knew that one way or another. I had to get into television while it was still new before long. A headhunter called from an agency that was creating television advertising. It makes me so happy to read this account of someone coming into their work to discover the work that's right for us and to be able to pursue. It is one of the greatest sources of happiness that life can offer. I'm Gretchen. Am I hope this makes your week a little happier?