1 Episode results for "Gerald Era"

305: Shaka Senghor | Writing My Wrongs

The Jordan Harbinger Show

1:14:41 hr | 1 year ago

305: Shaka Senghor | Writing My Wrongs

"Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger as always. I'm here with producer. Jason Philo on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode the stories. Secrets and skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use the impact your own life and those around you want to help you see the the matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave and we want you to become a better thinker. If you're new to the show we've got episodes with spies and CEO's athletes and authors thinkers and performers as well as toolboxes for skills like negotiation public speaking body language persuasion. And more. So if you're smart and you like to learn and improve you'll be right at at home here with us today. On the show shock singer he was in the whole prison for seven years. Four point five of those consecutive while there he started to take action action to improve his life he did tons of reading to keep himself informed. Keep his mind right treated every day like it was a university get up on time spent an hour on each different subjects and when he got out. They said he'd be back in prison in six months but instead he wrote a bestselling book got interviewed by Oprah gave a Tedtalk and hung out with the president. Really Amazing Guy Prison activists here here for prison reform. I just thought he's a fascinating character and I'm glad to have a good sit down. Conversation here was shock. A singer if you WANNA know high managed to book all these amazing folks. Well it's it's all about my network. I'm teaching you how to network for free over at my course six minute networking. That's at Jordan harbinger dot com slash course by the way most of the guests guests on the show they subscribe to the course and the newsletter succumb join us and you'll be in great company now shocking singer. What was it like light growing up? I mean I assume we had vastly different childhoods given neighborhoods. We weren't leads. Right was really interesting so I originally grew up on the east side of Detroit. In Harper's Hamas area is famous rock. Venue Harpo style. Yeah I remember. When I was a kid I used to go over there and just like watch? All the punk rockers fascinated by like their hair and all the different stuff that they will wear but back in the day. When I grew up you know this was pre crack? You know so it was still a wholesome community In terms of dislike what. It looked like you know still diners on the corner. And you know your local Kinda like store where you can go your mom Casey you up there and they already kind of know. A her routine is what she wants so early on. It was interesting to says we would like the first black family on the block L. and we had the most incredible neighbors that we had a very diverse screwball. Neighbors like on one side is Irish woman who was really super dope sites to pick from our trees would make like pear preserves in on other side. We are like an Italian family and they were really a gracious because we share Kinda like a great vows like a lot of fruit trees over the back in the day you know just being able to share food you'd like cultural exchanges like that was always something that you know when I think back to my childhood. That's what I reflect on first before things kinda started changing with the the introduction of crack cocaine when I was around fourteen. So what year was that eighty six. Okay no we started seeing a dramatic shift in what the community was like. So you know. I grew up on the type of blog where every parent was apparent. It didn't really matter whether biologically European and it was just like you know if you're out there mischief they're going to be like. Hey get it together. You know. Here's what you gotta do. You gotta cut my grass not like what you're doing is your mom's so Those are like like the more fonder memories of growing but you know once crack cocaine in the equation. It was just a dramatic shift. You know you saw those same hair has now kind of walking around under your floors crack cocaine. And we didn't really know understand like the deep impacted they drop was having at the time so that was Kinda like early eighties eighties cultural Detroit's street culture back then just got so bad so fast like I think a lot of people now. I mean we're talking about it. Decades later. And you hear about Craig's not the drug thing that's more about opioids now but crack was devastating. It was like a plague that just came wiped out a whole neighborhood. You know and it really shifted things and so you had a bunch of young guys making more money than they've ever seen in their lives than their parents overseeing their light and a relatively short amount of time you know and we know one of the things I always reflect on his light you know household. I grew up in like my mother was abusive in my father was complicit in ad right and you know I eventually ran away but one of the things always reflect on when it comes to like thinking about that time of my life is how much of a kid I was in his very the adult world. Yeah and I remember first of all. You've made any significant amount of money. The first thing I wanted to do because I went to the grocery store and I literally bought every type of Serio that I want it like growing up. I couldn't have had six kids. So we may get one box of cereal. In the rest of cornflakes and Rice krispies. His win in the store and I bought every type of Syria. I can think of cabinet crowns in all. These different scenarios bought like strawberry milk and his like biggest. The kids can do right Captain Craig Favorite. Yeah I mean. I was sorting through all of them. Back combs let me just try all the things that I saw on TV. Yeah but it was one of those things that I think to me. Really signals the innocence of childhood being distorted by the realities of this drug being used to the community. This is good juxtaposition right because that can imagine you making. I don't know how much we're talking about like a few hundred bucks a day. I mean literally saw sure I mean it can go from anywhere from a few hundred bucks a day to thousands of dollars a day. It was loud crazy. You know how old are you like fourteen. Oh my God yeah so. I'd never even scene prime more than one hundred dollars at a time. By that age I remember like the first time I got paid. Some drugs are probably had like three hundred fifty four hundred dollars over the course of just like a few days now but it was like mostly in singles like hugh most ridiculous stack of money and at fourteen yoed. This is like all the money in the world. You just don't realize like it's really not that much money back then. It was probably considered a lot is is lily for kids but when you think about the cost paternity losing a life losing freedom is not even close to a comparison thinking about that captain crunch and Nintendo. Yeah absolutely yeah it right. Tari go visit until like you get a color. TV and illegal vision are in your light and your friends are just like yeah in the thing back then was like a motor. Scooter moped moped. It was like you might as well had a big bands ever. Yeah wow so of course the draws there because you're not no one thinks about dying when they're fourteen no not at all you know. I had a moment early on when when I thought my life was GONNA in it for team so within a few weeks of southern drugs like everything bad that can happen begin to happen. I was robbed gunpoint and I was in the building on east side of Detroit on East Traumas in Jefferson and I remember again innocence. The naievety right. I got lured out of the house while I was selling drugs into another house and once they were unable to pay I was like okay time for me to leave and it was like of course we will escort you And they had watched where I took the gun. Watch where I talked to drug and basically like two grown men one of them choke me up grabbed me from the back and other one grabbed. I'M GONNA put it through my head and was like get the money in the drug flow and I just remember like being on a stairwell and looking down to dislike cavernous basement in thinking. Like damn is suit me and kick me down the stairs and it's the end to end when they didn't do that kind of just pushed me out the house and was like get your ass out and I went to a Coney Island restaurant on the corner. I remember just walking in air in dislike people looking at me like you know in my mind. I'm like I just got rops ops maybe the Atkins understand that but in reality. I'm like I'm a kid. That should be in school right now and he are dressed in all of the drug dealers tire. I'm probably not even five feet tall but in my mind I feel like this big guy but reality kit with the fuck you doing out of school and I just remember like that moment of really just want somebody to say you know this knife is not for. You need to like go home and figure things out you know so I went on my way has got right back into the culture man. Yeah I can imagine getting robbed at that. Age doesn't really seem real but then you're just like shaking have shaking adrenaline response yet. I mean that's the the thing that I think about Interpretation of drug culture in America against the colts writing you know we see all the glorified parts everywhere it's like Oh this guy you know hardscrabble discover background he made it may happen and those things are true and nothing is one of the reasons that it emerges in hip-hop coaches so much because it is Kinda like the aspirants aspect of figuring out how Americans rain and it's the dream that was kind of born and hood. It was a way out. You know a lot of people and you know. We often hear the criticism. This isn't Murat. Well how do they glorifying this. Will you think about it. You know you're fourteen fifteen years old. You're able to help you. Mother pay rent able to help your mother get Outta the ghetto able to get transportation transportation feeding provide by. There is a hero like element to that. But what often isn't talked about is like the trauma that you experience in the nightmare that that culture is for kids you know for anybody in general but the kids specifically you know and reflected a lot back you know especially now as a mentor. While I'm talking to sixteen between seventeen year olds and I always had these moments of dislike thinking to myself like at their age. There was an adult giving me drugs. Yeah it was a vote sodomy God's dot women who were performing oral sex in. You know having sex with me at the age and I'm just like your like you have to be really fucked up in your own head to even think that that's okay. You know to expose the child to that and so the things that people don't talk about is the fear and the paranoia in and the trauma that we ended up experience as a result of that lifestyle. Yeah you don't think about it because you think okay. These kids are in this lifestyle. They think it's cool. That aware off its implant but oh you don't think there's grown pedophile taking advantage of you. Guys that are corrupting when I'm trying to think what was I doing when age fourteen and I don't even remember but I certainly only wasn't having sex with a thirty year old or twenty eight year old woman who is trying to crack from me. That I know was not not doing that. You know it's interesting like even that subject because I've written about extensively just you know it's navigating life as a man you know in having gone through those experiences and thinking about like. We don't talk about what happens to young boys as an update. One of the things that I'm saying with the OPIOID epidemic. Now is that people are really saying you know this is really happening to kids whereas when it was cracked and it was affecting Kim primarily black and brown kids. Nobody's really thinking it through that Lens. But it's one of the things that inspire me to ride my roth because I really wanted people understand how you go from the innocence. CISA childhood to being caught up in his very addictive culture is very destructive culture. You know and how that changes and transforms who you are as a him and being like when I got into the culture you know I was a smart nerdy kid who just happened to grow up in the hood which wasn't even really the hood then it wasn't hood until came you know l. but having gone through that and being able to go back and look at how I changed from the sweet innocent kid dreams of being a doctor to Nama Herdan some guy in the streets but I was hard because of the shit that happens to me when I was in culture. You know yeah it's GonNa be interesting to see how the OPIOID crisis which is happening happening all over not just a black and brown people. There's a lot of older. I would assume older white guys who are like. Oh well. It's because it's defective culture. They live in this like dumpy neighborhood of courses going to happen there now though it's happening in everywhere so you can't really say like oh well. They had bad parents defective healthier. And if so of course a happen. It's a failure society. It's like no. This is happening to your cousin who got a back injury at a wrestling match and got nearer to Oxycontin and your grandma and your wife Hyphen. You know your sons and all these things and I think those things were true for crack as well but in a different way where it was Kinda like people will come from the suburbs into intercity. Indians's Kinda slip back into the birds. Whereas now with opioids in such a different drug is almost paralyzing? You know when when you think about the effect that it has people physically dislike farm asleep in random places in off you know. I always think of these things through like what there's the moment me for us as a country. And how can we like. Not 'cause we can't go back and rewrite what happened in the crash came here we can go back and change the laws and policies which which opioids is actually helping us do so. It's Kinda like that thing to me is like what is the best possible story that comes out of this for us as a whole and if you can get people people to recognize that this has been happening the communities and we can have that conversation. I think there's an opportunity to heal from the race devised some of the class. Divide and things like the honest conversations. That is interesting. I hadn't really thought about that. But you're right. I think it's harder to look at one culture or one ethnic group as less than or more defective. Then you can see the same shit happening to your own Own Shade of of people in your own neighborhood. Because when I worked in Detroit I worked right down by. We were talking before the show I worked right down on Jefferson and Van Dyke. which as you said as a bad air it was bad then that now I think I don't even know and it was really eye opening for me? In all the cliche ways you could imagine going down there and being like Oh there are people my age that live in their own apartment. That are afraid to go out at night that have to carry a gun to like. Make sure they're not not gonNA get robbed or killed and even then obviously no guarantee they got a minimum wage job in their sixteen and this is their life now. Whereas I'm like this is some stuff I do on the weekends? I'm going to go to University of Michigan. I want to go to college and I'm never gonNA come back here again but then talking with them realizing they were really like pretty much the same as me that has had a lot more responsibility in a lot less opportunity. It scared me a little because it's easier to think of people as not doing something right or like having screwed up their life rather than just like not having won the lottery which he eventually realized that. You've done a white kid growing up in Troy Michigan. Yeah and I think that's one of the things that we assists in the country. Are I feel like sometimes. We're comfortable being dishonest. We are just to say. Hey I really get this now like. It's not a threat to privilege it's like it's just a reality of the world. We live in right like even now thinking about this. I'm raising my son. He's being raised very different. Denominations raise right. There's a certain level of privilege was that he has that other kids who don't have a father who's doing what I do. Have those are just the fact. She knows so their outcomes possibly going to be different unless there's some type of intervention listen to set them up in a way where they can actually succeed in thrive and I think the more we can be honest about that conversation and whether it's about you know class whether it's about economics with us about race where gender I think we'll always just have those kind of political trump's where people are like come rescue you or you know or you need to fix it and you need to figure it out in this way more. Our complex and see your family was pretty stable until it wasn't right that's what it sounds like in the book. I mean you know my parents and I'm thinking about this often now like even with things that I remember number from our childhood with my parents were in a healthy space in their relationship and what I think he is rely on normalcy in the sense of. There's a sense of safety and routine and always about you know. There was a point where my room was in the front. I can hear my father's car coming around the corner at exactly the same aimed every night and when I separate I was around eleven years old and I remember like nights of that. Not being the norman hear different sounds dead. Just didn't mirror that normally of my fathers routine of parking in front of the House getting the keys out in open the front door coming in checking you know. Stop it in the dining room. Maybe looking at home works to leave our home. We're going to table one in the kitchen grabbing a bite to eat or whatever the case may be and so when that when they first separated it disrupted corrupted that sense of like normalcy and safety. You know I think now as a father seated my son is used to and things changed dramatically. No we went from you know Oban household together to them being separated so it was like two door households and I think they did the best that they could in terms of like trying to be supportive co parents appearance but I think there was a Lotta animus between them and so it wasn't always like that fluidity of being able to go from household household and noted. It's still kind of some awesome perspective and you know they parented very different. You know my father when he and my mother decided to separate fathers lot more easy going pretty chill whereas my mother was more structured more strict and like that was confusing tabs and it was like oh I really wanted to be over. Here with daggers. Easy Breezy but then there's some things about the structure that my mother had now think back on. That was really helpful. You know what made me very independent very skilled at taking care of myself and learn how to manage a household because those were like the requirements. But you know the thing that I think probably impacted me. The most was when they separated the second can time and my mother she was like you gotta go live with your father and even though like I love like leaving my father like more it was something about feeling rejected. That really impacting this. I'm like why do I have to go live with him and Associates Still Stan here like this. Is My childhood home forever at this point but that created away whereas between Hana you know in our relate it was never the same excessive light mother son dynamic even when they got back together like I was mostly disconnected from her. And that way you know but I still yearn that validation that comes with you know having the love of a mother you know and unfortunately it just never happened and I mean we're we're good when it gets face now but it's different. My needs are different. Well Yeah I mean. Now you're forty seven eleven years old twelve years old. I mean you were on the honor roll. I think it's important to remember. Remember that this is like you were a good student. You weren't like getting in trouble all the time or anything like that right. It was just like you went from model kid to selling selling drugs on the street within a span of just like was it like three or four years short amount of time. You know one of the things I always think back to like whether it was with the abuse and also or or just a three things like you know physical abuse knee the verbal abuse. You know that changes children's like the way that they interact with the world and one of the things always reflect back. It's like you know teachers not recognizing the shift. You know not recognizing like you know become the school to no longer being interested in work whereas you know. I started off as like the kid who was excited in Narcan. Wait to turn in the paper and get a because I'm like I was a high performer. Early read I started reading when I was probably four years old. You know strikes me now looking back the teachers not noticing right that lack of answers you know where I was at one point a high performer super diligent in class. From the guy who's like running answer my work so fast but I think that. That's you know a real indicator where tildren lives began to derail when the adult stop paying attention to the changes. There was a major shift. You know and it wasn't like I was at a different school. The system so to go from like on rose students have barely even showing up in class. That was very key indicator that something was wrong and and unfortunately schools just aren't equipped to always deal with that you know whether it's class size or whether it's this lack of resources when it comes therapists social workers whatever the case may be but it was damatic sift during all the time. Yeah it's sad to think in it. Sounds like you're going to in your head looking back like they had a baseline they knew you were smart kid. They knew you were really nice. And then over a short period of time all that went down the drain and somebody must have noticed in just been like. I don't have the time to deal with this. which it sucks? Yeah or the time resource on. It's like even if you think about like athletics rights you've got a player who's performing at this level all the time and then all of a sudden there's this is like this Mark drop-off like some coach knows okay was going on back on drugs in your dating life in shambles was really going on because it's easy way to measure by a person is life. Yeah Yeah that that is super unfortunate. you're still a kid even when you ended up going to prison we'll get to that in a second but but it sounds like moving from your mom's house and then moving in with your dad that's when you started to build a little bit of a wall like all right if my own parents are going to hurt me then I'm just going to shut down a little bit. Yeah I mean I think the war began to build a little bit earlier than that like actually in childhood just with some of the things that was happening but I think it was kind of solidified solidified as I got into that space. Like they're just back and forth back and forth. And you know I'm kind of navigating life on my own at this point in trying to figure it out and even like when I was living with well my dad like I was basically on because he works so our schedule was Kinda like I get up and go to school. Sometimes he would get up. Eat Breakfast with me to go back to bed and then by the time I'm coming from school he's going to work at the time you come to work. I'm going to bid. He worked at night where he worked in it afternoon. Shifts like three to like you. I've been thirty so once I'm I'm out of school. I'm just like me. Run the streets and figuring it out and I'll even stay was like an innocent kid kid who just had a lot of freedom in a lot of responsibility you know how to cook through that process Hey you gotta take care of this. You know what I mean. It's a tough circumstance. Like when I think back on it now he was is in essence a single dad. You know raising a child with a full time job. And he's trying to figure that out and I'm a single dad now so I understand like the level level responsibility of trying to navigate all the things rice was like I still have to work. Got To get my son to school. Getting picked him up from school. Make sure he's attended attended to is still try to run a business in this knows. No easy undertaking now and I mean the difference between he and is that I'm actually entrepreneur and I have my own thing going on whereas he had to go punch a clock you know day in and day out and I don't even think in general. There was a lot of support for single fathers. Because there's just not a conversation that we have regularly like you know what support structures needed to support fathers. Who are panning or co-parenting you know? So Yeah uh-huh you're listening to the Jordan harbor show with our guest shock a singer. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Hydros. Hydros is a water bottle that filters your water but it's not like the usual suspects. It has fast flow technology that allows you to fill up five times faster than typical water filters this is really important because if you're sitting there holding his old school Britta up to the sink filling it really slowly. Then you've got to set it down for twenty minutes as it drips through. It's a huge pain. especially if you're about to jump into to a yoga class or something like that. Every hydros bottle works with the same type of filter so the one in your fridge uses the same filter type as the one that you have in your car. which is the same filter type hype? 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To Jordan harbinger dot com slash subscribe subscribing subscribing to. The show is absolutely free. It just means that you get all of the latest episodes downloaded automatically to your podcast player. So you don't miss a single thing and now back to our show with shock a singer we think a lot about single bonds not enough my opinion but nobody's really thinking about single dads. Almost it smells. It's like what are you complaining about. Yeah Yeah yes it's the wildest thing you know 'cause I even like dating is been like really difficult to date. Women ended understand that. I'm a father I like in that. There are nights. I just can't go out to dinner because unlike home son and even understand the relationship dynamic maguire his mother. And I which you know we have a great co-parenting relationship and we have to talk often. This is a child we're raising. It's not just somebody that we're dropping off and picking up. Like what is she wants to be informed about today. I want to be informed of things has happened in his world when he's not with me and when he's with her and those things are important you know parents share and and is one of the things that we chose do because our parents didn't have it like that it was just like okay when you're with them you with them but we try to keep some type of intergrated rated parenting relationship so that there's consistency you know that he understands consistency of love of routine of share responsibility and it's a a little complex and a little difficult at times. It must be hard to learn that without having had the example. I know when you ended up on the street you wrote in the book even the cops who arrested me asking me why I was wasting my life. They believed me more than I believed in myself. which is crazy to think that somebody who was arresting you is like hey what are you doing? You're not what are you. What are you doing? This is now who you are. And you're thinking like what are you know about me and the answer is more than you seem to know by yourself at that time and more than your parents seem to know because there are work all the time which is just crazy to me. Yeah I mean I. I've always reflect on those moments of you know having those types of interactions where people can see what seems to be so obvious one of the areas. I think that a lot of people fool Mr Mark on is like internal belief and how much more dominant that is an external validation and something that we don't believe in talk about especially like quid. Young boys like what are internal beliefs where we believe about ourselves and specifically as a mentor to a lot of young black boys as in like a lot of my work is convincing the shift their beliefs about themselves self esteem issues self worthy is in this runs across the spectrum. It doesn't matter Black Brown white. There's a struggle in our country with young boys to figure out what the identity is and to figure out how to say. I don't feel my best self. Were struggling struggling with these. Things is one of the reasons suicide rates. Among young boys are growing Dan Age. We live in where everything is social media. You know we hear about the young ladies ladies who grapple with body identity what they look like. But there's also the success factor or a tough factor or the athletic factor. That a lot of young boys are struggling with founding founded. Replace you know. I'll talk to a lot of young boys who are nerves is a smart kids and they wanna do nerdy stuff. Nobody celebrates honors that in society and so they had these inner turmoil where they're like. Oh well let me try to get validated through this aspect of like what it means to be a boy you know so. I think it's a conversation that actually will be held for me if you think about some of these young men. Who are you know doing mass shootings at schools right and you really start to dig into their background on A? You'll see that these issues are there and it's more than just you know. They're watching the video game writing some because that's the easy stuff right is easy to be like. Oh I was just racist or this person. Was this watching video games. Whatever but there's really something happening with young man in the country that we're just not talking about enlarge because there isn't a lot of space for men to just talking about what it even means to be mailed in this world is GonNa be a man what does it mean to be a boy and what are emotional needs because as we only talked to express our emotions anger or frustration? Yeah I mean that's very familiar. My Dad is a great guy but he is terrible communicator. It's like it comes comes out pretty binary not happy right. It's either there's not even a couple. There's just mad and man who wrote ad and happy and mad can be impatient. Tired hungry frustrated. Feeling bad about something and it's like I remember even when I would have something that happened to me. He would just get mad because he he couldn't be like. Oh I feel bad for you. Here's some sympathy. He would just be angry now and my mom would be like. Don't tell you he's just going to blow. Yeah I see that even in my I self. It's almost like I have to work hard to not get mad about random things because it's the wrong response it's not constructive but it's the example that they have is. Oh is this happening in your life. Just get angry about it and then my wife was like what are you doing yours. Being Your Dad and Mike and I know and I can't so hard to break the pattern and it really is you not. I mean the reality is there hasn't been any space to break the pattern and if we don't have examples of what healthy emotional expressions. Look like outside of anger. Sure how can you expect react any other way you know and so you know those things are what I try to pay attention to as a father's like what am I communicating my son when it comes to emotional wellness in emotional wholeness see your fourteen years old. You get recruited by this older drug dealer. How did that that even happened? Was He just say. Hey you WANNA make a lot of money. You WanNa get some cap'n crunch like what's the what's the sales pitch from. This fits like in even in a book when I say older. I mean he was like like nineteen Brownie right at four chain. It appears to be like you know miles. Apart down and sales pitch was he had the car would allow music. He had the pretty girls he had a way of taking care of yourself and providing and stat recognition. That in a lot of these Is the same way too. Young girls are recruited into human trafficking. Right is the validation is the hey I gotcha back. I'm GonNa Support Schulman help you live this magical life not gonNa tell you as you probably get killed in the process or you might get robbed. But I'll give you the tools to set you up to hopefully prevent those things but there's no guarantee and so young men are recruited in that same way and Aghanistan emotional need to be validated. You know these guys are not like going into school. Where kids would healthy loving nurturing family saying hey I think you should come sign up for this lifestyle? They're looking for the transient homeless. They're looking for the runaways looking for the kids who abused and who've been hurt and been broken because because oftentimes they are those kids and they know that just a hug from big home and you know cute girl in the Carson Halo Man so you are. Oh you're making his money like all that validation right like those are the things that set it up to where a young person will compromise freedom or their life just to have those things things. I can definitely see that being really tempting even looking back in my teenage years if somebody offered me a great opportunity or seemingly great opportunity the like that would be so hard to turn it down. Because you don't think I'm GonNa get shot tomorrow us. I'm not going to happen to me if you have no checks and balances like you're not going at home in your mom's like this is why this is the dumbest thing you've ever done. Then you just get sucked into it and the only competition is what like math homework. No thanks right so I totally understand that. So you're doing this for a few years but then eventually reality sets in you got robbed and then how did you end up getting shot so I guess when I was seventeen seventeen and it was over minor conflict in this guy we got into an argument over something meaningless and I thought it would just be one of them in Canada Fistfights come from a culture where he got a problem. You fight it out and keep it moving. But during this time period you know with crack cocaine Ayn came like high levels of gun violence amongst young people think Detroit is always had issues with gone by this general but there is something very different during a crack cocaine area where you had young is who had easy access to firearms like I bought my first gun like probably wouldn't a couple of weeks weeks of summoned crack. You know because you have people who are addicted coming in bringing guns you know goes through this whole thing I seven. TV's and microwaves and VCR's ars including VCR's anymore back then that was the thing and then it's like Oh some firearms in Houston car and things like that. So with the influx of of crack cocaine also came influx of firearms. And the way that you guys started to settle conflicts you know so this guy in March nineteen ninety you. No we get into this argument. He rose up. We say some words and I'm thinking he's going to get out the car on you. Know fight in steady pulls out a pistol suits me three times. My Dad add. Wow Yeah and so you know what happened after. That is one of the things that really shifted. I think the last similar to childhood our hood was definitely gone. At that. Point the sense of innocence. You know when I went to the hospital. They were very robotic very mechanical. This kind of like you know. Pull a bullets out will lead US bulletin. You'll probably be better off. Patch me up and within days I was back in the neighborhood. There was no. Hey how do you feel. What are you thinking was going on inside? Heidi you resist Kinda like Oh you lucky suit in the back or Susan head or you know you'll survive and get back out there you know Kinda like you know you've got injured on the football ballfields walk it off get back out there you know and when I got back to the neighborhood I remember the first day of standing outside like I got the first few days I had Kinda Hill up and I was on crutches and Kinda Hobble Lino Sudden. WanNa be out in the Bible once I was able to Kinda limp around the neighborhood I remember remember the first time to stand on the corner again and a car coming down. The street in like the level has felt level vulnerability and at that point. I was like you. Yeah no I'm carrying a gun every day no matter what you know no matter what the circumstances if I get into a conflict I'm shooting I like I'm not even taking a chance of being shot again and that became my dominant thinking like every morning and I mean I have been around like my friend who took me to the hospital. He got shot the year before an in an incident where his friend got killed. You know several guys throughout our crew had been shot and even now when I reflect on my family. That's like eight of us. I've been shot. She is you know what I mean. This is real my brother. My oldest brother was the first one in the family to get shot in. This was around. Nineteen eighty five. I shot in the neck by my other brother. Other brothers Somali brothers. Salman the neck he was paralyzes like right arm and shoulder. You know and always thought to myself like what he thought about that experience like what has he ever grapple with. PTSD then the brother who shot him actually been shot twice is the first time was in the superficial conflict and then a second time. He got shot Permanently paralyzed. And then I have like cousins and nephews were shot multiple times in various degrees of severity. And I'm when I came home so I got out of prison. June two thousand ten at September number two amount of us were shot. One of them was shot in the incident where his friend was kill and I remember going to see him at the hospital. I was like you know used to get therapy. And he was like like only theory. I'm good this happens all the time you know in the same thing with Used to get there. Both of them are in prison right now in Elsa cycle in the psych what. It just hasn't been disrupted and a lot of community so this is why you see the repetitive guidance. Because you know there's no interruption happening. Oh you know who Charlemagne to God is. Yes so I was talking with him and he was explaining like black people. Just don't really do therapy because it's looked on like Nah I mean everybody. First of Paul Rejects Therapy. It takes a while but especially for some reason. He's got theories on this but in black culture. It's like oh I don't need that do you. Like I'm too tough for that or I don't want to deal with that pluses expensive plus it's not necessarily easy to find like there's enough obstacle already. Yeah I think that's part of it. I think the other thing is trust colty. There's it's a distrust of like the idea of what therapy is right if you really went into the hood and it was like you know you should see their most reaction if you WanNa talk about white people the problem rights so there's that perception that only therapists are all white right and then there's also this the the reality that we don't deal with mental health in our community in a healthy way. Sean may not have actually talked about this a couple of times and you know one of the things that I was expressing to them especially dealing with guys in prison so I was in imprison Bunch of young guys in there was a consistent pattern of adverse childhood experiences high levels of gun violence high levels of abuse high levels of trauma. Nama in no therapeutic treatment and what. I was explaining to him as like you know. There's just this distrust in our community and rightly so like the history of what happens to black bodies black minds in America hasn't been one that leads you to believe that you should be trustful. People come from outside of your community but what happens does with that. Lack of trust is a high level of ignorance in the need for mental health care and other things like a lot of mental health facilities have been taken out of communities. He's my father actually worked in the twelve for a long time and I remember when they shut their clinic. Now you know. And so you have families who have adjusted to just stand out versus forces having a bad day at a ban disruptive edges tripping you know and even after extreme end right just in general people need to take care of themselves Mitzi in writing whatever that looks like whether it's meditation therapy reading whatever you need to do for yourself but I think what I love their Charlemagne's during the east actually creating space for the compensation that happened in real life you know and then big shot as well About rap big so. He did a mental the health panel like in Detroit not too long ago and it was powerful to see people be able to connect to language. That was familiar to them right so we were able to put it in the language that you can relate to the Not some sixty year. Old Jewish Troy Michigan. Didn't come and tell me about all your problems I listened to do Torius Tori Then other part of it too is like a lot of times with the taste of therapy is if the smutty by the tell you everything is wrong with your. You've probably already heard that. So I think breaking down those stigmas. Outnumbered excited dead Solomon is doing a big sign is creating platforms not do it in my. Aw but clearly they have these massive platforms. which is really important to remove the stigma as well treatment? Yeah you mentioned a lot of grownups adults. At the time. Women selling their bodies guys come in selling their possessions to you in exchange for drugs. What does that do to your psyche as a kid or just as a human right because you must have you start losing losing faith in humanity? I would imagine at some point when it looks like everyone around. You is like yeah. I'm GonNa Sleep with you for this or I'm GonNa give you my grandmother's ring because 'cause I need a hit of crack like there's gotta just be chipping away not really like your moral code but actress like your faith in what people are good for right. You know. I think a lot about about this especially in terms of hip hop rice early hip. I'm a big big hip hop fan. And you know having the privilege of growing up alongside hip hop right so lighters kids growing up now into a world of hip hop would I grew up in a world where hip hop didn't exist into those created and watching the music change from just like upbeat uplifting positive to like you know is hosing bitches in the hood and things like that right I begin kind of track it through what happened with the crack. Capitalistic right in what happened with a Lotta young boys growing up in a culture. And even if you weren't someone drugs you are around that like you had access to early. Childhood sexual experiences dances with adult women that often time were degrading demeaning and not loving caring nurturing so a lot of the objectification comes through that lens ends like at fourteen when we're in the house and it wasn't just the women were addicted to drugs. Also women were chasing the money and so at that as to have that type of the million over adult women was very unhealthy or not. See a play out with a lot of men growing up where they just had very dysfunctional relationships with women myself included as a young drug dealer like I had no interest in like you know love and in marriage in whatever it was a slight yo you too cutie for the day for the week or whatever you know what I had a couple of girlfriends that eventually develop some feelings. Whatever capacity at that time but a lot of Atlanta easy access you know in so oh you have that type of access? It diminishes experience but also the administers experience for you as a young man in terms of like being able to be mostly developing evolve and and as one of the things that I'm I'm actually writing about now because I was able to talk to a woman who had sex with when I was about fifteen she was is like in our thirties. Oh Wow yeah. We had a very interesting exchange that I'm writing about in my new book because I think it's super important to really understand Bassani really understand why. There's a lot of emotional dysfunction in young males. I felt it was important to share that part of my journey. You know the thing that missile was about that experience like he had some experience when he was like eight years old and he had to make the connection until he was talking that it impact how he evolved in terms of how women and for me is dislike talking to her in a missile early. She was very very defensive shirk issues a pedophile. But you don't see it it there. You don't see it from a grown female too young boy as much as you like. I'm thirty eighty nine. If I was walking around with a fifteen year old girl people would call the police at media league will hopefully they would whereas with me it was like Oh sees attractive so this is a metal this man now man right and so I asked her body no especially because I mentioned so many young boys and not see. What's happening with them? So I asked her about Bob it and initially she was like yeah. I'm GonNa talk to you about it. And then she went counter like radio silence and then she came back and she had a couple of things that weren't true through Here's what I understood about the dance. She got Super Defensive. MVP categorically denied like doing this with other young guys and then eventually she came came around and she was like you know I was wrong and I was ashamed and it was hard for me to talk about it and yes idea. Do this with other guys in the neighborhood and you were just wanted a mini young guys in in. Oc never quite got to what happened to all life which he you know. That's personal journey budgets. Having her come full circle go from like she said. Like wow fucked up said you know. She's like maybe you're just something happened to you in prison and there was this like blamed. You're hallucinating this humane lean without seems like it was true but maybe I'm asking these questions because something happened to me in prison or you know it was just. It's the mean is situated. Say when you're defensive and I remember even sharing this with like women my life and getting their reaction in their reaction was like initially like laugh and I was like I. Wow this is deep laugh like that was kinda crazy what she said and what I ended up doing. I said imagine imagine that this is a thirty something year. Old Man man. WHO's had sex with a fourteen fifteen year old girl? She comes around later on life. Say Hey you know. I realized that wasn't okay. Why did you do it in? This was the reaction he They were like Oh shit. It's weird when it's fled right. Yeah they were like Oh sit we get it now and I was like if you're raising boys you're a mentor. You have a son You should be thinking or if you're in a relationship with a man asked him what his real experience was not the glorified have my virginity broker. Thirteen with a grown woman. I don't like that wasn't healthy. Yeah no kidding yeah shows up in different ways. So you're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest. SHOCKER ACAS singer. We'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored in part by better help. I love better help. Online counseling better help offers. Licensed professional professional counselors who are specialized in issues like stressor anxiety relationships sleeping stuff trauma anger grief self esteem and more. So it's really up to you to find somebody here. 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We don't think about it when it's flipped around down and you don't think about it when it's different cultures to well. Actually I should speak for myself when you think pedophile you think white dude younger. That's like the stereotype right. But I have in my head but you don't think older African American woman younger African American guy in the city because then you're just like That's like there's some other things going on I don't know but it's the the same thing absolutely it's abusive and it's being on address and like you said even talk with other people and they're like Oh ella well and you know that that I was being abused by this woman. You're laughing about it because you don't know how to handle it like extrapolate that through the old culture. It's toxic absolutely all right so you're selling drugs for while you end up getting shot you start developing a habit of your own right. How did you end up going to prison so sixteen months after I got shot? We're actually within at sixteen much began to develop this very toxic narrative that you know I found myself in conflict. I was shoot I and in sixteen eighteen months later I found myself in that conflict in even as Wrote about this in the book but prior to the conflict I was at a party. I was actually DJ at a party and a guy got shot in from the party in so many shot get shot party shuts down. We're all on high alert because initially we don't even know so we just know somebody at the party in two people so we don't know who was who was happening rights. We're all on edge and then we walked back around to my place and Once I'm like a car pool KARFA gas. You know. We're all like gas ready pull out pistols and figuring out where they ended up being some guys we knew so when I get home another guy who I knew all of a sudden drugs to he pulls up with a car in this like him into other guys and two other guys. I don't know I have no clue. These guys are so so trying to make his transaction and it was a little different transaction. I mean he was considered like a pretty good spinner guy who will come to spend forty fifty dollars regularly Hourly every couple of hours. Whatever but he came you know? They had a significant amount of money in. I just felt like something wasn't right in his way. I didn't know these guys in. It's like two in the morning warning you know. And so he and I get into an argument because I wouldn't sell the drugs and so a guy who's driving impasse. Lucy David he joined to the argument. It became kind of like a back and forth between us and there was a moment where I turned and I was like you know I'm done with conversation. y'All to get off the block and turn Lily turned walking in her without thought was a car. Door open not turned and fired. Several shots tragically causing his death. Days de I was arrested and charged with open murder and eventually convicted of second degree murder sentenced to seventeen to forty years in prison and and I was like one month. Tonight's eighth birthday when I got arrested. Wow so you're like still a kid pretty much when you went to prison. Yes when aww got the prison I went to missed reformatory which I only missed. Probably about two and a half three hours from Detroit and it's called Grad School in this prisoner pretty much young is about fifteen hundred guys. There may be somewhere between two thousand fifteen hundred guys and young guys. Basically the prison was designed for guys from age fifteen like like twenty one and they were older gas sprinkled in but it was mostly young guys serving long presence I think the minimum residual was like fifteen years would accept Lagasse was screwed up at other joints and they come a lesser sentences. But basically I was there with a bunch of young guys who were all serving. You know anywhere from fifteen to license in a very involuntary environment yet as man where I was at nineteen. How did you feel when you shot that guy like were you? What was it like in the moment? We scared it at all. Were you surprised at what you were able to do. Or was it kind of exactly what you figured it would be. I had never figured what it would be Because I don't think it was really about about him was about what was going on inside of me and so in a moment it was just kind of like a fighter flight thing and like lily after the shooting the car pools off in everybody's Kinda scrambling and my brother was down the street and I remember just slight running down the street smaller brother and talking to him it was disliked is very childlike moment. Of like you know. I don't know what the extent of the damage is. But this is what I did and I know it's really terrible when something really bad. This happened and needing that you know consoling from like somebody who felt that part of who I was was very childlike response. What's you know? I didn't WanNa like face it you know. I wanted to run as far away from it as possible and ended up getting arrested. I two days later you know and I just remember sitting in in the police headquarters in being. NSL listening to their interpretation of it and just being like no. That wasn't what that was. You know that that point Eh. Got Multiple different statements. Like even a guy who brought him. Initially bottomley initially lied about what happened. I guess he was trying to stick to the street code and not snitching whatever whatever not getting implicated in any trouble because he was these were like guys from the suburbs. Who had everything to lose you know? And so his initial statement when was false and so that can lead to a lot of different interpretations of what happened. You know went from everything from carjacking so randomness but ah I just remember hearing it in like not even connecting that. I'm the person responsible for this man's death and so when I went to prison you know there was really no oh space like going into even pack that trauma of that part of experience. You know it was like you talk to a therapist in I would as lady. She basically very very matter of factly asked me what happened. And very matter of factly told up into the high felt about what I thought about others told her what happened and she cared derives me as being like a a sociopath chair you know I was like it wasn't until years later that I understood exactly what happened. Like she was to offer any help Souza's basically they're kind of label me and box me into some idea of who she thought I was you know and the reality is that when you have people in that position of authority to defying find somebody else that don't come from the Cultural Community. That's what you end up with is like a young sociopath or doesn't have any remorse in the slag. No I'm traumatize advertise is fucked like I've literally take somebody life. I've been shot up into all these religious experiences and this is just a combination of all those things that I don't know what what the hell to do with like. I don't know how to unpack this at the time. I don't know how to navigate the Mosa this you know in a moment and this lily dislike a very short amount of time steal navigating it and I just remember like for years trying to find the language to even say I feel horrible about just like this is a terrible feeling to know that I've devastated his family. You know and probably about five or six years. He and I remember getting a letter from this woman a nasty who's responsible for raising David. At least a letter. She sent to me and explain their relationship so basically the guy who shot his mom for lack of gothic she was like godmother or an aunt or something along those lines. Lots of came out after I got out and had conversations with his wife but when I got this letter from her she explain herself as the one who have raised him and I just remember. RENA lateran dislike WanNa bother letter up you know because it was just like hey. Hey here's who David was our family and she humanized him in such a way that I feel like a deep deep sense of shame on this like in the moment that it happens two o'clock in the morning they might as well have been faceless nameless because I couldn't even see in the car and so when I got that letter it was like okay. This is who this person is a human being. You know devastated his family but this woman is is just such an incredible age of my life lease you know in assisted suicide. Despite all this I forgive you. That's gotta be. I don't even know 'cause because you would expect her to be so mad at you that you resist it but he says she forgives you. Yeah I'll man. Yeah no it was. I wasn't even any mostly mature enough to even share process process that in a way that was just like Yo this is real but I kept that letter number rea de Often And I still have the letter you know and I was just read it over and over because because I knew that I need to get to a point where I could accept her forgiveness in order to really fully. Forgive myself but also to have the type of empathy but the the is necessary for healing and so I just read a letter over and over you know and it it really back then when I I read. I didn't even know the profound impact it it was having on my life. I wasn't until years later that I realized like the way I show up in the world now is largely connected to that letter. Wow Yeah that is intense. It's that must have been so hard for her to write and so hard for you to read. Yeah so this day. I'm just like this lady is like just an incredible example. What it means to be human woman in a sense that the way that a lot of us engage in life is to a spiritual religious lands in a cornerstone of that is redemption and forgiveness? And things like that. But it's rare for to actually manifest until like our real life practice Replace that life is tough. You know things happen that are harmful on foreign hurtful and it's not easy to arrive at a point where you like you know. I WANNA practice without preach in on a railway when it happens to me. Oh so it's not easy to do when she had a tremendous amount of courage today to do that. I know you wrote in the book. That prisoners are amazing entrepreneurs. This was no surprised but very interesting. Everything's so expensive in prison. So everything has huge margins to can you talk about that a little bit. Yeah I mean I think a lot of times when people think about about who's in prison is kind of like this blanket idea of just bad guy one bad girl. Whatever right there's never any real sense of like who these people who truly are and a lot of the men and women inside are exceptional ox preneurs exceptional artists exceptional musicians and all the things that make up the world that we live in? You can find in prison entrepreneurship though I think in particular is probably easier to find. 'cause you know we come from hustling we come from a culture of do you know how to survive in. So those are transferable skill sets. You know I remember. When I first started selling drugs so we procured this new space to sell online homerun a house on the east side of Detroit but it was like in a nice neighborhood still ready to be nice and I remember the first couple of days? We had lions of people outside the door. I was like this looks ridiculous right and it was instinct of light. How do you make this not so obviously? In so originally we had the first layer of protection which armagard adore on outside those those metal yard. Metal oradours right. Yeah okay so I was like what we moved that door in between the kitchen and basement allow the flow of people to come inside the basement then it prepares the neighbors from sand was going on and Desa entrepreneurial instinct rights figure out. How how do you sell things in a way the customer experience so you are? You're right yeah and so I mean but it was things like that. It was connecting with other guys in other neighborhoods networking figuring out how to profit share. You know hey if I couldn't do your neighborhood. Here's the benefit to you right source source all these different things. Even even you know a lot of drug trae was like you buy Super Low on you just sail high right and so you think about all. Although skill says any fortune five hundred company can use those you know in there are transferable you know the marketing the promotion coming up with ideas. Here's an even innovation. Which I think is very important part of any business venture right you gotta be able to innovate in can enumerate on ideas and figure out how to use simplify processes assesses right in in prison? We had to do that to survive. You know you can't survive in prison without being able to ITERA. You know you can't get tattoos if you can't no oh break down the tape player and guitar string in ink pen and turn them into a tattoo gone and even just the commerce in there you know like people don't have a ton of money you you know so they have to depend on family to send money and you know it had to depend on their pay period once a month so that creates a black market store. You know where you can house enough marchandise you know so if you buy something for fifty cent you owe me a dollar you know. One hundred percent Margaret And so people get into financial trouble relatively quickly in there because the markups so crazy so I mean loansharking air and it was a cycle so to sail blocks misery performance story. I block in Sabe Lot art and they received their money or offsetting weeks so I was able to circulate cast light consistently both ways because when I get his money alone that also J. blocking in you got to pay me back and then I was set up these stores in each unit and I was just how secure myself you know and then we also everything I worked in a recreation center. You wanted to come up and just get out of your cell like there was a cost of that. You know three hours a week I can get you out. Can be a referee. Even though you may not know nothing about sports or you can come clean up the wait period or whatever advocates may be. You need to come up and do your laundry cost you a dollar. So is everything was like hustling all those skills said she just developed like they're really beneficial when you get out. Entrepreneurship is probably the best path for people getting out of prison. Because it's hard to find employment. Yeah put on want to hire you. You have a felony. You go through everything you can think gov constant rejections people are just afraid. You notice the stereotype around people. Getting out of prison is really negative. And people. Don't think that there are people who just really WanNa come home and live with drug-free crown for life and get an opportunity and fortunately there's organizations that's helping with it now. I know that when you were in solitaire you decided to treat it like university university absolutely that makes sense but must have been kind of hard to do because it requires you thinking about okay. I'm in here now. I can't resist it anymore. I've gotta learn what to do and move Ford and then like you said paroled after nineteen years going into prison as a teenager and then coming out basically my age now. What were some of the biggest changes in society that everything right in the world has changed man like I came home in Greenwich like you know? I came home with an advantage that that a lot of people coming home don't have like highly literate. I'm super curious about life in the world. I'm well read. I love to read. I devour magazines. I was learning about all these things but hadn't not interfaced with him. It was just like the most mind blowing thing that come home like get in the car. The car like talks. I'm Camila when I went to the prison. Only car to talk kit from the night writer so I remember just sit in the car and the car just said some and I was like who who else is in here with us like what the hell is happening happening right navigation systems like you know. I remember like run of the slide. You WanNa get somewhere you like. Look make three less right. Here is the third house from the House with broken condone. Since you know and you're at the destination so coming out and technology was just mind brought to me I pay skype was the thing I got. Yeah and I remember the first time and people were like skype in and I'm like this on the jetsons you know and now it's such a part of life so that was crazy relationships. You know I was In a relationship with my son's mother before I got out of prison and when I came home like that relationship derail so quick and it was for a few reasons right okay. Part of it was just. I'm like a bull in China shop. At this point on the Free Kincannon navigate the world with other parties that had no relationship experience you know. And that's that's something that we didn't really account for like you know she was like Kylo I can is one lane of light. Man is home so she kind of riding the highway. Love so to speak. And I'm like six lanes and I'm trying to reconnect with family and China established release reconnect with my children. Find employment run a business. Cheese aren't technology Z.. Learn how to just be you know and like all those things were always at work in my mind is so you know. There's a lot to get out. You know it's a lot to re acclimate it yourself to life on outside being around groups of people you know you get out anybody wants to drag you everywhere. Check him over here and come meet this person in you missed grandbabies when he was gone on. You know when you when you were way and all this wonderful in his necessarily but it has to be pasted away to honor our experience you know. My experience was real like in crowds. The people people got stabbed or blends hidden head or strangled or whatever the case may be so it wasn't easy. Just go on and sitting somewhere around. A bunch of people are making choices. Like my first couple years I ate mostly like wing dings in hamburgers. 'cause stuff that I was millionaire I mean I would look at a menu and get overwhelmed like Jota too many things going on. What are these words yes? They'll do that when I look at what a wings at this runaways and fries cool because of how many choices it is to make we know. Is this like coming home. I got excited by like being able to buy my own sneakers and like being able to have a choice in what I worked at. I went so many years without a choice Gerald era so is this a lot man in. I mean I'm still unpacking. I'm coming up on Saint Years Zone. I'll be celebrating my Cynthia freedom and graduation. Thank you dislike. This dislike. A lot has changed in my life out here. I'm still learning a lot about life in learning about what already one of my life still unpacking that experience you know. Oh so I'm in the process of like finding the right therapists for me. So he's really unpack a lot of things and I mean I've done like cell therapy for so long to writing writing the medium of storytelling in you know journaling. Meditation has been Super Therapeutic but also realized point my life where. There's so many things I experienced in prison the most people that I didn't even talk about in the book because it was just like that. How run this and unloaded? I'll have to unpack all that. You know to be the full version of myself. Yeah I know in the book you'd said Ed prison reinforces everything negative that you know about yourself. Can you speak to that a little bit is that had to be. You know that when you got out right yeah I mean I had the rebooted before I got Out a very volatile environment. So hierarchy based on violence and hustling culture. And things like that. So reinforces all the negative things that you know. You grew up in the hood experiencing and recognized as having value. I Soon Hood Hustler the drug dealer shooter by all those guys have real value. Al You with her then. You're validated in the hood in ways. That people don't often time lights acknowledged. But there's a credibility to be like a hood celebrity in hood star it so wrestling thing translation. The prison like beauty prison yard balls all the things that come with that are celebrated in an environment so for me I had a kind of rewire my thinking in mm. It happened like when I got this letter from my son and his mother had told him I was in prison and reading that letter from his is through his lens as a little boy. It was GONNA grow up to look up to his father as prison yard gone. A convicted murderer dad was devastating into think. That's how my son was going to see me and I'm new at that pointed. I really had to change some things in my life and in order to do that I had to really examine my life an honest way so I begin to actually figure out. How did I go want you WANNA be a doctor to serving almost promise years in prison in that process of journals? Allow me to unpack all the things really stand in Maastricht as a person as a leader leader and so when I got out of solitary and I had turned my life's who are different productive outputs being able to talk to men who respect to me from the prior associations about where I was heading in life and they encouraged was like man is it takes a lot of courage to like walk a different path. You know but if if anybody can do it you can too this guy still write me from prison and tell me how proud of who I am today and how true to my word dog been you know which is equally credible in St. Coaching prison. Kosher is actually being a Mattia word and so out of all accomplishments. I think that's really important important. Some years no one that I stuck to what I said I was coming here to do shock and thank you so much man this from us for having me man. It's been great big. Thank thank you to shock. A singer links to him and his work will be in the show notes. Of course. There's a video of this interview on our Youtube Channel at Jordan harbinger dot com slash youtube. Also in the show notes is there are worksheets for each episode. So you can review what you've learned here from Shaka. We also have transcripts now for every episode and those can be found in the show notes as well a few folks have said they don't know how gotta get to the show notes. Those are on the website you can also if you want an abbreviated version of those tap. The album art on your phone screen should pop a little summary not the full notes but some rank right better than nothing right how to connect with great people like shock and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six minute networking course which is free OVER JORDAN HARBINGER DOT com slash. Course don't do a later do it. Now you gotta dig the well before you get thirsty if you want to procrastinate. Go ahead but you might stagnate when it comes to your personal no and business relationships. Look the drills take a few minutes per day. This is the stuff I wish I knew decades ago it is not fluff. It is crucial. Find it all for free at Jordan. Harbinger dot dot com slash course and by the way most of the guests on the show. They actually subscribed to the course and the newsletter. So come join us. You'LL BE SMART Company. In fact why not reach out to shock and tell him mm you enjoyed this episode of the show show guests love hearing from you. You never know what might shake out of that. Speaking of building relationships you can always reach out. And or follow me on social At Jordan Harbinger on both twitter and instagram. This show is created in association with podcast. One in this episode was produced by Gen Harbinger and Jason to Filipo engineered by Jay Sanderson Shepardson worksheets by Robert. Fogerty music by Evan Viola. And I'm your host Jordan Harbinger our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own. Yeah I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer. I'm sure as heck not a doctor or therapist so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show and remember we rise by lifting others the fever this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting I think for this one it would be somebody who is either been in prison or has a little bit of a preconceived Russian about the type of person that comes out or goes in so please share the show with those you love and even though you don't in the meantime do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.

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