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From Art to Robots
From art to robots NASA is very interested in seeing just how flexible the super ball bought can be. This is innovation now bringing you stories behind the ideas that shave our future building a system of rigid components connected by flexible joints and cables is not a new idea artist. Kenneth Snell began exploring ten segregate with his flexible sculptures in the late nineteen forties today, these structures show up and everything from baby toys to the Georgia Dome. But now NASA is looking at building a spin Lee sphere that could change the way robots work made up of a tangle of rods and Motors. The Super Bowl Bhatt is in the research phase in Nasr's innovative advanced concepts or Nyack program, although technologies still need to be developed for the body to function independently this flexible robot could roll around on treacherous surfaces with more speed than. Any wheeled robot? And since the most interesting scientific questions can only be answered in some of the most dangerous locations NASA. Researchers can't wait to find out. What happens when this shape shifting robot is rolled out for innovation? Now. I'm Jennifer pulley innovation now is produced by the National Institute of aerospace through collaboration with NASA and is distributed by w HR V. Visit us online at innovation now dot US.
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Triangulation 384: Tom W. Bell - Anarchy Ahead?
Hi, folks, Denise Hal here and next up on triangulation. I'm joined by Tom w bell. He's a professor of law at Chapman university Fowler school of law and the author of the book your next government from the nation state to stateless nations. We're going to talk about off the shelf government big tech companies stepping into roles traditionally occupied by government, see studying and the future of crypto currency all this and more next on triangulation. Casts. You love from people you trust. This is. This is triangulation episode three hundred eighty four recorded February eighth twenty nineteen anarchy ahead. This episode of triangulation is brought to you by ZipRecruiter higher qualified candidates. The smart way and take your business to the next level. Try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter dot com slash triangulation. I folks, I'm Denise Holly. In your joining us for training relation. Our guest today on triangulation is Tom w bell author of a book about your next government from the nation state to stateless nations. Tom is a professor at Chapman University School of law. The Fowler school of law there where he's currently teaching all of the first year common law, courses and electives in high tech and intellectual property law. So you're right up. Our alley here at twit. We're thrilled to have you here, Tom. He's been at Chapman since nineteen ninety eight before that he served as the policy director at the Cato Institute. And we're just thrilled to be able to have the opportunity to chat with you today. Tom, thanks for joining us. Denise glad to be here. So your book is a fascinating look at the future of government and posits that the government systems that we all love to hate will be forced to move to something more streamlined and more pri- privatized. Right. So could you give us kind of an overview of your thesis here? Sure. A book your next garment have a copy your to describes this revolution. As I talk about in the book, it's transforming government all over the globe from the inside out and the bottom up, and those aren't just hand gestures as actually correspond actual policies in the world. And it's fascinating lots of governments all over the planet had started setting aside little areas, sometimes big areas of their countries where they say different rules apply. Here we want to try something different. Usually it's in the line of. Lower taxes or lighter regulations. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But when it does work the rest of us outside of the borders of these own learn really useful lessons about public policy. And and you get things like Dubai international financial center, which has been a big success. And so I got on fascinated in this from a legal and policy point of view in this book is all about the things I discovered and the work I've done for clients in the field. I basically work in the real world on this stuff as well. As teaching have two jobs. Say you keeping quite busy. Which we're glad of it. Tell us about your research for the book did you travel the world and visit some places like Dubai didn't go to to buy, but I did go to hunters and French Polynesia, and I guess after the book came out and went to the Republic of Georgia. So yeah, those that's for client work, although my it's research to when I go out and our work for clients. I'm learning things which once I filter out the confidential stuff ends up in the book or will end up in a future paper. So yeah, it's happening all over the world. And it takes you interesting countries because it's not usually the countries that have governance totally nailed down. You're not gonna go to Sweden probably create a special economic zone there because they don't seem to need one end up going to places like Honduras, which has many virtues in charms, but good governance is perhaps not top of the list of the things in Honduras that attracted to the country. And so yeah, you end up going all over the world to some obscure corners. So first of all I. Guess for folks who don't pay attention to what he special economic zone might be in. Why it's new and interesting could you describe that for us? Sure. Actually, the idea goes way back of some kind of special jurisdictions all the way back to ancient Greece or on dealers. I believe it was they created a free port. But these days special economic zones are more traditionally associated with things like Freeport's foreign trade zones, which we have all throughout the United States. And then also places like Dubai international financial centre, Hong Kong in a way is kind of a special jurisdiction. It's called a special region and China, and as I said earlier, these are all areas where governments offer different rules, usually to foreign investors. Usually the goal is to draw in foreign investment and the rules are usually financial lower or no customs duties easier. Regulation. Particularly in labor if it's the kind of zone like Makila Dora where unfinished goods come in. They're finished and then shipped out again. And there's some other more radical experiments Dubai's international financial financial center goes farther Honduras, where I've done some work goes very far. It's fascinating what they're doing. It. Under is basically they've empowered outsiders to create with oversight, of course, completely private legal systems for the most part the idea being that this will attract a certain collection of foreign investors, and they'll come to Honduras and improve things create jobs opportunities and everybody Linda better off. Let let's go into that. For a moment. You talk about it in your book that notion of a private legal system. How does that work in practice? Most of us actually already. They're very familiar with the fundamental component. And that is private arbitration. Whether we realize it or not most of us are bound by lots of agreements that are not going to ever see the inside of a public court. If there is a dispute, they'll go straight to private arbitration, and that will kind of like settle the problem pretty quickly, and depending on who you talk to fairly in Honduras and other places though where they're opening up more areas for innovation. It's goes beyond courts. This too is not uncommon. But it's not as well known. They're plenty of industries were essentially the regulation comes from within their industry, codes and standards. They can even be enforced by private bodies. That's not uncommon. And if you think about it, really all those. Our ways of making a enforcing and judicata the law, and it all comes from private sources, we even have private sources for the sets of rules in the form of say. For example, the American law institute or the uniform law council which together those to put out things like a model acts and the ULC does uniform codes. Now, they're adopted by states in the United States by individual states and become binding law, but they issue from private bodies. So all these are examples of how the private sector is doing governance. It's it's providing government services essentially, and when I look at the bigger picture of of government. That's how I see it. It's a service industry we have monopoly public providers as we still have in some places Intel calm in air travel. And then we have the private sector, which competes often frankly, much better than the government in providing these services, they provide the services competitively because they have to when you don't have a monopoly you have to satisfy your. Customers. But so we see private and public governance services. That's what happening in the world. And I'm working on the private side in part because I hope the innovation competition on the private side of the governing services industry will inspire reforms on the public side. That's kind of my ultimate goal is to improve government that we can't change to easily by making it face up to competition. Make it step up its game. So people who can't get up and move to better government. We'll have better government where they live. So we talked about dispute resolution as as one form of privatized government function that we see in the world today in the United States and elsewhere, and as you point out, I mean, there there is some controversy about whether it functions certainly there are ways in which it's more streamlined than our public dispute resolution system. But there are a lot of complaints about the fairness of it, the expensive it the review process if you should be unsatisfied with your result. So I would characterize it as an area, you know, in development and trying to innovate and trying to move forward. And and perhaps more able to do that, then our public systems, which are fairly entrenched. So dispute resolutions just one part of what government does can you describe for? Some other aspects of government functions that you're seeing moved to the private sector. Sure. Well, I'll I won't use the present tense of being moved but also has been moved to the private sector that security. There are many more private security officers in the United States than there are public police officers and for many communities that's about as much security as they want and need, and it's suffices depends on the neighborhood, Iran and your situation, but you could easily live in a condominium, which a big one a big condominium, which is a city a big condominium affectively a private city. It's got its own fire protection system. It's got its own security system, you know, private guards and has an on its own transport system public transport in the form of elevators. And and everything is basically a city in building, and they have their own security malls. I don't need to go down the list, we all see the security guards. And and that's just the start of it. Of course, there's a lot of security provided. Through the private sector in a very advanced way that doesn't evolve humans cameras and sensors and all manner of things through which people to care their persons and property provided by the private sector is really what most people rely on the police end up basically getting called after things go really badly. And maybe they hunt down the bad guys and in jail, but actually providing security not cleanup service, but making sure abandoning doesn't happen that's already handled by the private sector for the most part in the United States. It's different in other countries. Other countries are not as friendly depends on the country but frequently they're not as friendly to having a private sector uniform people running around in and arresting people because the private sector can arrest within limits. There is a common law right of arrest even to the private sector. So there's one that's basically legal enforcement being done by the private sector. I don't see that trend stopping. I think it will continue. And I think it's probably a good thing. All ready mentioned too. So if you think. About the three branches of government. We covered judiciary the executive branch enforcement, and we might throw under the hat some regulations, I won't get into that. Then there's riding the legal rules. And again, we have private bodies. Like the American law institute in the uniform law commission that make can rules for everybody. You go to the you can get the the second restatement of contracts, and it tells you this is generic contract law due out all the common law jurisdictions or you can get much more specialized rules within a specific industries. So you know, suppose you worked in the pipeline business. I don't work in that field. But I'm assuming they have a number of standards and protocols and rules that to interface between networks pipeline network to have to satisfy actually I should stick to a network. I know better than that would be the internet, which is again is a it's a network, and there's a lot of interfacing going on. That's basically all ironed out armed out by people in usually like Marriott who. Tell rooms at conference guys and t shirts and women sneakers that in a very casual way, basically hammer out the infrastructure that we depend on that. We're probably using right now, the knees that's absolutely now. Let's private sector lawmaking. Yeah. And you know, what this is the second episode of this show that I've hosted triangulation where I felt compelled to bring up professor Lawrence Lessig book that I think is about twenty years old now code is law. And I think that that is a kind of what you're getting at here that the rules that we put into place just to streamline day to day functions of things like technology wind up being the rules that govern our lives. Even though they have not been handing down from a governmental body, you agree. No, you're okay. I have a history with him. I was actually in the first class he ever taught at the university of Chicago. Yeah. Grade class. Yeah. Has fun to see him stretches legs. Earning how to be professor. And he did he's done some great work. I've Myers working mentally. But I think actually he has things exactly backwards in that when he says, basically code is law. I think is wrong because it fails to make fundamental crucial distinction between the coercive power the state and the voluntary acceptance of rules in the private sector isn't a very common mistake. It's a sad one as a terrible ramifications and public policy, it's a very common throughout academian than commentary large to see a rule and assume all rules are the same. And I'm here to say, that's a big mistake. And the difference is when the rule comes from the traditional form of government, the state there's a gun behind it to enforce it. And that is simply not true of the rules. That are regulating, for example. Arc's change right now. No one says we have. To use these rules right now using ice TCP IP protocol. We choose it because it works. If we choose to use a conventional landline, and we don't use packet switching to have communication. No, one will come and shoot us. Now what Larry gets wrong his getting it reversed? He says code is law. That's wrong for reasons I just enumerated, but we can say in a way that law is code in the sense that laws in the sense of binding edicts that issue from thorns backed up by Coursey force. Those are algorithms. They are rules in the same way. That algorithms help us write programs in lists for C. Plus plus, and what you get from. That is a number of interesting things, including the notion that oh, there's nothing as 'specially exalted about rule that happens to issue from someone who's wearing a crown or has a badge, metaphorically speaking. They are all rules. And I think it helps take some of the wind out of the sales of people who want to say, there's something, you know. No more authoritative about this just because of the source there may be reasons to obey those rules much more stringently than the rules that comforted the private sector, but it's not just because automatically better or more powerful because it comes from the state. Does it change your analysis at all if we throw into the mix what you mentioned a moment ago that not only are the rules and the processes being privatized, but the enforcement that there's more private sector security. We of course, have private sector military subcontractors that get brought in to help wage war. Does that shift things at all? Raises questions and everyone should get worried. Whenever they see, you know, one person standing over another hitting them with a baton that could be justified. But when people are crying out in pain it deserves investigation. However, let's just observe if they're playing by the wool's to use an example from the United States private security guards are acting within the bounds of the law as I said earlier, if you're private security guard at a mall, you can't detain someone for shoplifting. If you overstep your bounds. Of course, you'll be charged with unlawful imprisonment, which is toward suffer lawsuit near might be criminal sanctions. But every one of us actually has the power to arrest malefactors, we have the power of citizen's arrest. That's okay. As long as we do it within the bounds established by what the ultimate authority in political system. Which is again, the people in power through the electoral process to wield guns to enforce the rules that in some way, we I'm gonna use scare quotes. It's because it's a system, but you know, the people choose. Beat master in IRC is watching live with us and mentions. Privatized prisons, another good area to discuss of of functions that are already traditionally government functions that are being more and more subcontract out said the contracting out to the private sector. If anyone's ever watched orange is the new black. You know, the various problems that they've highlighted there in the privatized prison system at what's your take on that aspect of privatized. Govern government time. We're getting a little far from the things I can talk about with much knowledge this. I'm a law guy, and I don't do criminal law in part because I find it a chore nearly distasteful I find most criminal law. Just badly run. A lot of things that are I shouldn't be and I'm just kind of turned on my nose to the whole thing. But I will say about private prisons. I don't think the the fact that their private should sort of prime affair. She make it any worse. It's not it's not better to have solitary confinement done by somebody with a bad. It's still hurts. The prisoner just as much as if it's done by a state authorities. So we should evaluate these different institutions on their merits. And honestly, I don't know the answer. I am convinced. There have been some abuses by private prison. Have no doubt about that horrible stories. But of course, that's true of the government prisons to one of the biggest things I worry about with private prisons. Is it creates an incentive structure, really by basically finding this industry that is now going to go and has gone to legislatures and said, hey, this, for example, this decriminalize decriminalization of marijuana thing. Not really what California's one is it really what they're thinking of is we won't have as many paying customers or clients if you don't bunch Busta bunch. Dope heads and throw him in jail. And that's terrible. We don't want people lobbying. For laws that will affect all of us just a line their pockets. But again the prison guards union, which gets money from the state of California also lobbies against things like decriminalization of marijuana. So I think I don't see an angel or devil attached to either these labels government or private in this zone. I will say a nice thing about having private prisons in the mix is it provides some competition. It provides us with choices. If we find out that in California sent some prisoners out of state because of complicated, bad reasons. But we might discover oh, they're sending them to private prisons and Aaron Nevada in different states. And we might be able to say this private prison is not as good. Let's not use them anymore. You can't really do that with California's prisons if your end up stocking to California Public prison. You can't easily say, you know, oh, I don't like this. Let's have you know, the populace can't say let's get rid of those prison guards who are brutal. It's very difficult with the private sector is easier. Just throw a switch throw him out. So you guys don't do a good job. We're going to find somebody who does it better. They might not do it better. But we can get rid of them to eventually through competition. I like to think we're more likely to get a better system, if the private sectors in the mix so one of the things that occurred to me a moment ago as we were talking about all of these various aspects in areas where government is becoming more function of the private sector is the role that artificial intelligence is bound to play in all of this. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on all that. I don't have a lot of big thoughts capital t with an S. But I'll offer you one thought again, not really my expertise. I do. Hi, tech law. But in the law, I don't think he is doing as much as as as people think it could. Or should probably will someday Tony how the idea is simply again to look at the structural feature. If a I has something to offer us in making government, better guess highly possible, they I already done service in a lot of kind of low key ways in ways that we don't notice then it will be better to have system where governments have to compete to ensure that these latest innovations serve the public interest suppose, for example, we're in the old Soviet Union. It's still survived. You know, it's still around. But or maybe it's like North Korea. Yeah, we'll use North Korea. It's basically another two Taliban communist state that lasts still survives. So is supposedly is really great at doing things like laying out roads. And I don't know detecting criminal activity things like that North Korea is going to be probably the last country in the world to use that a I in ways that help its population and might use it in ways to further her. Author population. But they're they're not going to be stimulated. And they're not gonna be forced to competition in North Korea to make their citizens lives better by using this latest technological tool, and I think it's much more likely to happen in areas where there's either private governance where the private governments have to compete or you have a public government that is competing with private governments. So go into your research and writing in the book and give us some examples of interesting ways. This is playing out. Sure, we'll talk about the Honduran case because Honduras takes us right to the forefront to the kind of frontier of lawmaking in this area. Hundreds is the country in Central America. It's rather skirted most Americans if they've heard of it's probably some very sad news unders for a long time had the dubious distinction of being the murder capital of the world highest murder rates were in Honduras and certain cities in Honduras. It's all because of the truck the drug trade for which we can blame United States policy. Basically, I won't get into that. I just wanna say go easy on the Hondurans. Their woes have largely been imported nonetheless. It's a not a happy place in many respects. However, they've had a lot of success. One of the few bright spots. Really in their recent history has been there ex. Sport processing zones. He's our special jurisdictions where they have had companies come into Honduras and Bill factories and hire locals to process, usually it's it's a garment parts that come in. And they'll say be so them together and then ship them out again finished to markets like the United States. And this the reassurance of a special structure in which to operate encouraged investors to come to Honduras, they have skilled labor at least at that level in plenty. And and it worked out great. And so I thought we still have a lot of problems in this country. Let's take this good idea. That's working for us and see how far we can take it. I've actually met the author of their their program, and he is a Honduran and a so Meyer him so much. He's a fellow who even when he was a young man started thinking about ways he could improve his country, and when he joined government service, I'm talking about octopi with Sanchez. He's talked about in the book, he looked at Hong Kong. And he said why can't we have a Hong Kong and Central America? And that's what he said out. He and some other reformers in the government there to create and they created I it was called the red program, and that was thrown out as constitutional and in most countries, you'd say, well, that's not gonna work, and they said that and under is, but they didn't give up they went back, and they amended the constitution as leisure to do that in Honduras, and it is in America. But still shows a really wanted this to happen. Now, they have they put into place the day program Z T, E, Z E, and that's in force now and on paper. Now, there's no officially opened Zadeh yet. It's been only a few years and these things take time. But when it is as at a star top rating, you will see their private, local and foreign investors who will be creating a system of governance with the idea that it will attract investment from and residents and workers from abroad. Skilled workers and teachers doctors and they'll come to the zone. This kind of nascent Hong Kong and Central America. And just as Hong Kong as at these wonderful effects and surrounding areas. Look Szechuan, right. That's all Shanzen. Sorry shanzen. And it's basically kind of spillover from Hong Kong. Wow. Thank you get that in Honduras, make things so much better. And so this is that a is going to have a basically thority under the amended constitution and the comprehensive statute the as any legislation to effectively pass its own laws in almost all areas except says easier to say here the things they can't legislate on. And it is to go through the long list of things they can do. I mean, they can't have their own financial regime. They do have to have some taxes at a certain level, but their taxes are also capped, and but they can do their own contract law their own tort law on regulations of industries their own labor code in the Senate. Now, there's oversight by Honduran officials. Well, actually, it's better than that. They created kind of. Trust to kind of create a buffer between the government and this in this private development. They've created kind of an intermediary body. It's called the camp. It's like a board of trustees. You might say which pursuant to the statute keeps an eye on the Zeti watches. It will watch it and look for human rights violations for violations of fundamental rights that are actionable under the constitution of Honduras, which remains in force and under international law. If are human rights violations in one of these Ed as the ultimate appeal is not even Honduras. It goes to an international court for the protection of human rights as better protection than most countries offer right in most countries, you up to the supreme court and you're done. And here's here the areas where you can't legislate in the Senate. You can't of course, have your own flag national anthem. You can't do your own treating negotiations with other countries. You don't get to act like full-blown sovereign because you're not and these are matters of of of national dignity, which even the Hondurans care about. And also, you can't have your own Krimmer. Final code. You can't for example, decide oh marijuana's legalized here. The hundreds actually for not dig fans of of decriminalizing drugs. However, I will say for them and certain if you do it right prostitution and gambling is is is is legal in certain ways in Honduras and a lot of ways it's more liberal than the United States in that regard. But the, but the point is because criminal on bodies moral values, which one hundreds of legislated on is that it can't change that. Well, actually, they can change it, but they have to get the approval of the national assembly if they pass their own criminal code, but and here's the crucial thing. Denise is that it can't enforce criminal laws itself. It has its own police force its own criminal courts its own prisons. And if you know anything about the Honduran criminal Justice system at this point you go. That's a relief lot books. Look awesome. The problem with hundreds is not that they've written bad laws in the problem is that unlike the code that runs computers code that run government that runs governments requires humans to implement it and in Honduras, some of those humans have not followed the rules that they themselves have written down. That's common a lot of countries, but hunters has had particular problems. Wow. That seems really interesting and will be fascinating to watch as these Zet as unfold because of course, Honduras has you've been there, I haven't. But from my understanding in just you know, surfing the web in being actually a somewhat enthusiastic scuba diver. I know that Hundres it could be zone already is his own where a lot of people from other countries wanna come just because of the beauty of its natural resources. And and the things that you can travel there to do and see so tourism could be you know, a huge boon to that country. If it could get over it's sort of reputational problems, and and people would feel safe and comfortable going there routinely, which it sounds like these as want to facilitate oh absolutely same time zone, Chicago. It's like having paired. In your backyard is what we're aiming for. And you mentioned tourism, you're ri-, by the way, I've been to some of the most beautiful spots Honduras, and they are among the most Beatles spots in the world, and I've been diving there, and it's just great wrote in his wonderful reefs and they've done a great job of protecting them too. They were one of the leading places to say get that sunscreen off our coral because they saw it was bad, and they really need to protect the coral. But you mentioned tourism. Let's though in there with his Eddie, you can do medical tourism. Because guess what you get to do your own medical regulations. No, this doesn't mean you're going to be grafting dogs heads on cats. Right. I mean, there's. Is this? Many people in the world, including the United States who would like to find quality medical care, though, cost less. Exactly. And that's what we hope is that can offer flight on air diving did not peration. You can't get thanks to the FDA. Do some more. Do some more diving come back home and be great. Well, I've never organized a dive trip around my surgical needs before. I'm not speaking your national, actually, I'm not sure that would work. Jungle. Yes. Maybe we're gazing into the future. Okay. So we've talked about Honduras where we're else have you gone in the world or looked at in the world. That's doing some interesting things. Oh, gosh. There's a lot of stories in the book about these sorts of things, and it's in a chapter called stories of the sort ordinarily recounted over drinks. Perfect 'cause it's the place in the book. Right. Getting you know, I get to kinda just tell these stories when you're asked and I read the book or it is again, it's the everybody's favorite chapter is that chapter, but I'll tell you some curious things that have happened French Polynesia actually, I'll update the book. So in the book, I talk about going to French Polynesia that island paradise smack dab in the middle of the Pacific Ocean is one of the most remote places on earth. And I went there with this east standing institute to talk with government officials about creating a cease dead in that in that island nation in a protected at toll and the idea was and I'm afraid here. Denise I have to use the past tense, but the idea was to create a season first thing the first time we've done this where we'd have a a land based small relatively small anchor zone and most of his own in these protected waters where the EastEnders would build a floating platforms. What's he studying all about where people could live and work because he stutters off. Definitely wanna create they want to create sovereign floating homes cities, really on the open ocean. That's a long way off that's the goal. But as an enemy mediary step. They reasoned in both for engineering and legal reasons, we need protected waters when he protected wires for engineering reasons because you know, it's just hard to build stuff on the open ocean. When you have a lot of waves. Let's get the technology ironed out in nice safe, warm waters, an atolls great. But there's also a lot of legal engineering questions. I'm kind of like a legal engineer. I think of myself, and I go in and tinker with code and fix things. And you know, someone comes to me and says, you know, we need a government for the open ocean. I'm like, okay. That's I can't be dominant. That's like asking coder build me an operating system from scratch. You say it's gonna take a while. And I can't promise the first run will be smooth. But if you do it through zone, the idea is you wouldn't have complete sovereignty. You wouldn't have to worry about you national defense and pirates at first things like that iron out the less crucial things like contract law. In dispute resolution, and so anyhow that was the pitch, and we made it and the good news is the happy news is we got what we wanted on that trip. That trip was I think two thousand sixteen if teen and we said, hey, can we get a memorandum of understanding with you French Polynesia to, you know, take steps towards this? And they said yes, and we did and it was great. We had a wonderful year working with them. But at the end of it, we were hoping it legislation and it never came. But let me follow up. So that's what the book ended at you know, we're waiting for the legislation, and I gotta say it never came. And there are some diehards who say or we still have some friends we have lots of friends in French Polynesia still wanna make it happen. But they gotta get the government on board and for complicated, local political, and international reasons because France's involved, basically, they're somewhat under the thumb of France, infringe, Polynesia, it's complicated. It's a complicated. Install is. I like to say that, you know, law coding, guys a complicated. Install you don't have to clean. Slate. You don't have a bare metal install, but there's some diehards area say, we're still working on it. But I'll tell you the action is now in Thailand, I've a friend Chad L warr hausky who runs now ocean, builders, Chad Ellwood hausky he runs ocean builders, and that guy my friend has built a cease dead. He does winded it it's floating off the shore of his new home. I believe he married. He's he's got a wonderful tie woman. His wife, I think a couple anyhow. And so he lives in Thailand and Ted's one of the many wonderful people. I've met a libertarian minded kind of irascible stubborn, wonderful brilliant people who made a lot of money and crypto currency bless, his heart. He's going to spend it on what he cares about what I care about two. And he built a cease that you can go to the ocean builders and see he's out there with his probably his spouse right now, and they just built it. They only put it in the water like I don't know a week ago. They only moved in. It's so exciting. So again, we're seeing the cutting edge people are actually. Cat has not come back to me and said, Tom when you the legal system because it just him and his loved one he's doing the engineering, but he's going to offer these he says at the price of kind of an average family home. So for that price. You get what is a small house floating on. It's an interesting structure is not a boat. It's like a long pipe that sits deep in the water. So the waves don't make it rock when you see this thing. It's it looks like it's set on land more or less moves a little, but you see waves under moving around. And it's sitting on this big piper pillar that goes deep underwater, exile, we go. Oh. If you're watching the video, we're showing the c stead site here ocean builders. So I just said he kind of flipped there. That's that's projected. But that's how it's going to happen. I think people are going to say I want to do it too. And they'll set up next to Chad. And who might say you're a little too close. And eventually, but they'll be communities, and and they're going to I tell you. I believe someday my friends are going to go back to me as a Tom. We got a dispute. We name air. Nice. When he came to the right guy. I'm here to help. So is the vision of this that it's going to be sort of like, a housing development or more like a country or both. I think it will start like a housing development that he went. He went a little bit out offshore from tied lands territorial claims. But it's complicated. There's a chapter in the book about this too. There's tapper belts. He's standing complicated issues. No matter where you are on the ocean with with vessels and sovereignty, and these will probably be classified as vessels under international law. And if he stays so if he he's gonna have he's going to have sovereigns impacting his behavior, no matter where he is Chad. And as soon as he gets other people involved eight will begin lack a homeowners association conflict. But as it grows, it'll become a much more generally issue in some point what we hope to have our self flagging ceased. The ideas will way we were. Do it. I don't actually know what Chad plans on the kind of legal political front. I don't think he cares. I think tad says I'm just gonna build it. I'm just going to build it and do it and worry about permission later. He did he look shipping channels and things before they decided where to build it. Yeah. Yeah. He's there. So he doesn't want like hard stuff to hit him. But as far as like filling out a bunch of paperwork. He I'm not I I don't think he's doing anything foolish. He chose a place where it's an obey. Basically, he often talks about how the waters never get above two meters. And he's got all this historical data in each currency and everything, but he, you know, I'm sure he also looked into whether or not there's a lot of piracy. I'm sure it's not an shipping lane. I've already seen some video. It looks peaceful. They had some dolphins actually off their back door not long ago. So it looks really great place both. Well, so far I'll say legally politically because he hasn't been arrested yet, I'm thinking. Anything is kind of out of the way in. It's wonderful and delightful, and it reminds me of shows that I've done in the past about space law, and how that will develop because it teams somewhat reminiscent of going to lunar Mars than building your little flock of domes and putting people in them and wondering what's going to happen. And now, they're all going to interact. We don't have to warn these. That's the beauty of these dating. We'll get to try out these rule systems social structures in an environment. Which is socially, you know, kind of like space these will be isolated artificial homes relatively isolated, and we're going to need rules out there, and there will be some kind of ties with, you know, they'll be flagged flying the flags of countries or may be studying flags so there'll be some interplay. But basically, we'll figure out there on the oceans first. And then I think what we'll see it'll just take those rules and slap on a spacecraft in own same on Mars. It'll be pretty much the same and on route to it'll be like the rules. Communities on the open ocean, except you'll be an open space. Right. I'm just curious because this this ocean builders thing is so fascinating. Do you know any details of how they're doing infrastructure? I'm sure they don't want to pollute the waters around them. I'm sure they probably have some sort of trash in sewage designed into their plans. Do you know anything about that? Because I'm not like a physical engineer just legal in junior a half looked into that. I agree. It is fascinating. I I know they have a, you know, water system on the C said because they have to and. Yeah, I'll just say interested readers should follow up and go to ocean builders. And Chad says there, I don't know if he has the blueprints. I just haven't looked at it yet. So new. I got two jobs. I'm busy. All right. Anything else from the stories? We tell over drinks that you wanna throw in before we move on to some other topics. I love to talk about that all day. So I'll just say here to other. I turned the two more areas that are happening. Oh, so one is after the book, and that's a Republic of Georgia. And I'll just say after the book came out. I went to the public Georgia and talked to some wonderful people there that a wonderful project called the anoxia anoxia A N K LA freeport, and if follow through on their plans, it will be like Zadeh grade independence, and that's a very exciting part of the country. It's on the China Belton road system. It's actually kind of on a by way. But with an awfully it it could become a big part of that. And they don't even need the Chinese belt. And and and and a road system for this to be a big success. So many anoxia look at that. And then also liberal Landers a little bit in that chapter about liberal land. Which is always worth a smile. I was gonna say laugh, but I don't want you to think as a joke, but I just a funny crazy. Thing. They're trying to do in between Croatia and Serbia to create a new country in this little swampy area down by the Danube. And there's some stories in the book about it, which are funny, and and and also kind of reveal some unpleasant things about the way governments work as if you need another story. Yeah. Who's the they who's trying to build liberal land the liberal Landers? Of course. The head of them is a wonderful guy. Vita jed linka who was a libertarian party Representative in Czechoslovakia the Czech Republic. Sorry, Czech Republic and veep discovered. There was this little portion of of country next to the Danube, which neither the two countries for complicated, Balkan reasons, one hundred to claim they both kind of turned up their noses at this little been in the river that had was inside kind of an ox bow because of its situation on the river. It had kind of it was unclear who owned it in both parties said not me, I'm either. So he'd said me he actually wasn't the first it's a complicated story of it. He's the most notorious of the parties who went there and planted flags and said, nobody else no nation state wants it. We'll take it and under international law. He's got a valid claim. I actually wrote up some stuff, which I think he's used about how you know. Here's Markham is v. Good arguments. But arguments for all their beauty on paper. The whole determined of what happens in international relations in Croatia has proven Serbia's is quite happy to have all this happened. There actually laughing at crowing show. I think but courageous somewhat flustered by this. They don't like it. They said they don't want that area. But they also really don't want feet and company there, and so they've done some things which I think are blatantly illegal, and we did litigation over it in. It's a mess. But anyhow, it's Vitas not given up. He just read news. So everyone should check in on deliver land. If you're interested in that there's some stuff happening there. They just bought some property. I think on the Serbian side of the river, and the running our hotel, the ideas, they doing something, they're they're they have not given up and someday there might actually be their flags sticking in the soil air and hotel and resort in Las Vegas slash Hong Kong Dubai, maybe. And again, so that the idea is if they actually can pull that off their this evolution in government that you've written about with an able them to sort of wholesale bring in governmental systems in structures in policies and procedures that they could sort of buy off the shelf. Yeah. Denise use two words. I really like one was ever Lucien. I think is a really useful metaphor here. And what we're seeing is rendering is kind of this kind of Cambrian exp-. Explosion era in governance, because we got all these little critters now running around there's like over on some counts ten thousand of these special jurisdictions in the world today, you'll get a map and you see like big country in a solid line around it. And it's just not the way the world is it's got all this stuff going on out of that. We're gonna see competition and evolution. And we're going to get we do it. Right. A lot better government. And the other thing you said was you kind of made this kind of I don't get what was word you something that you'll get download or, but, but the idea is that we're going to set up Easter stick Sion's, we're moving in government the way that we've moved in computers from big mainframes with customer S's to lots and lots and lots and lots of computers running operating systems that you can take from one to the other just like kind of common law countries that kinda run on the same o s you know, England and Canada, and Singapore, they all use the common law. I think we're gonna see more of that in a much more really, obviously, like windows or or or. Apple's OS kind of examples we're going to have his happening in unders-. We're going to have jurisdictions where they say we're going to download the best rules. And then how the jurisdiction is going to say. Those are really good rule. We want to download those two. And then Denise the really exciting thing will happen. Kind of this internet of governments. This is I talk about in the last chapter of the book, which is all about where we headed Saint place. Computers have taken us, but more slowly government's move more slowly than computers why because code is code there. Leszek was right in that formulation code is code. He kind of got it reversed. And the way you talk about that. But what we've done with computer code. We can and should do with government code. And that means we should have an operating system like you lex working on this which is open source and anyone can use. And it'll allow people to have really good rules. Everyone will have like a good interface with their government and will allow these jurisdictions running the same west interface, and that will create a network, and then you'll have like an arc. Go of jurisdictions all running the same open source legal system. And now, it'd be a really good thing. Golden swan as I call it everybody talks about black swans, I believe those exist, but we should also take note of golden swans. And I believe that's where this book ends up on golden swan for they the notion there too. If different governments are running sort of an off the shelf kind of legal system governmental policies than having laws apply. Cross jurisdictional it seems like that would be much easier. Yes, it was off the shelf. That was the Frazier youth. Good phrase here off the shelf. And when I created you lex kind of how I viewed it. You know, you likes his open source legal system created for special jurisdictions that is flagged free. It's all from private sources like the American law institute, the uniform law Council Commission, and I pictured myself with a basket walk into a library and say, oh, I need some need some contract laws from a private source. Oh, second restatement of contracts me. Perfect off the shelf. Just like you said to knees. And I, you know, I need I need tort law. We go restatements, and I just filled up my basket to do some organization. Did you end up with basically the kernel of the of of an operating system for governments? Just the Colonel like the links Colonel at the heart of the Android operating system. That's the most common in the world today. But we're talking about you. And you might have some of the things we got lots of things we can talk about blockchain talk about Facebook's online, governance, whatever you want to knees, we will. And we can we are going to and and right now, I think what we'll do before we get into. That is thank our sponsor for this episode of triangulation, which is ZipRecruiter. Thomas been talking about things that can be a big mess. You know, what's not a mess? And you know, what smart? 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And for ZipRecruiter by going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash triangulation. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash triangulation. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Thank you so much ZipRecruiter for your support of twit and triangulation, so Tom guess one follow up before we go into those next topics that you just tease, and that is you talked about you lex this open source government structure that you have developed and made available. You talked about it as a Colonel. And I guess my follow up question is the government structures that we see traditionally develop any Volve over time there tinkered with by legislatures and courts, how will that process work with? A EULEX type government. Okay. Happy to address that. And by the way, you're mentioned of your sponsor. Was sounds awesome. As precursors, but I want mentioned, I'm not speaking on behalf of any client here this clarified that this talking for myself. You lex basically provides a set of substantive rules for regulating conduct conduct people in a system and that includes rules for judicata disputes. But it won't give you things. Like, for example. It doesn't have a police code of conduct. It does say, you know. Hey, police you can't commit towards against people because we define towards we don't want you to do that. But to run a police system, you need all kinds of policies, for example. Also, it doesn't create an executive to run a jurisdiction. It doesn't have really away for judges to be nominated you need more. It's just a Colonel. It's the part of a governing system where you look at the law books, and you need something there. But there's much more to government. So how do you do that other stuff? You lex doesn't tell you that. Now, I, of course, have ideas. And some of those ideas are expressed in the book, I have a chapters where I talk about general principles of governance that I think if we go out in the field, and we kind of look around at what's going on. We can distill from those observations. Oh, this is the way people who run systems that work run things. And I also offer some very specific. And I used to do this. If you're running a government if I have anything to say about it. I'm gonna tell you do this. And one thing about the way Denise is speaking of cops and committing towards is getting rid of governmental, immunity, I'm very much against it. I have a tanker called against governmental, immunity, it's in the news. Now's pink court adjudicating. What to me is kind of a very easy. Minor call, and that is qualified immunity qualified. There's be immunity at all. But anyhow, I'll say in direct answer to your question. Good question, the billing the whole. Garments. I have ideas about that's moving to I've shared, but you likes doesn't answer that. That's why you go to the other coders, and you ask them to build that part of the system. Got it. Okay. Well, we've been discussing your premise that nation states are facing competition. They're facing competition, you write in your book from such entities as private cities self legislating special special economic zones that we've been discussing and other agile new institutions, and I guess I wanted to get into what some of those other institutions might be such as private tech companies two things I wanted to hit on here. Number one is this ongoing series. That cash hill has been doing about trying to extricate yourself from the technological systems that you might be using a specifically will put in the discussion points today a piece at WBZ. You are which I believe is a public radio station more than just blocking Facebook. It's called can we live without big tech in. They didn't inter. View with cash in and sort of went into her pieces on this point. How do you how do you disengage? And I guess the overarching point of this exercise is that these institutions have become such a part of our life, and we've become so reliant on them that they're undertaking some of the roles that traditionally we might have allocated to government, and I guess the the footnote to that is this notion that Facebook is going to start doing dispute resolution on its platform in what's been referred to as the supreme court of Facebook where it has a sort of non Facebook related entity that is going to be a judicata going disputes about say speech on the site. Whether something should stay up or down on the site and make that. Terminated in a way that sort of. Hopefully, we'll give the users some satisfaction that their claims have been adjudicated fairly and also will somewhat shield Facebook from this notion that they are in control of what is acceptable speech and not not acceptable speech on their platform. So I'm wondering, Tom what you think about private entities starting to fill more these roles. True. Sure, as I think you mentioned at the beginning, I have both in academic kind of professional part of my life. And so for the last several years outside entities have come to Chapman university and said, hey, guys, doing interesting work. Can you come work for us? And then I'm a little bit. Like an engineer. You know who specializes and bridges you might get hired to go build some special bridge in the university works it out basically had me worked for them part time. And then I still teach also so I say all this because in recent years, I've been working with these high tech firms. Creating communities on the internet will say, you know, virtual communities and have discovered is allowed to work with meat space governments it's a lot easier because you just have to write the code more or less and hit, you know, send upload so that's wonderful, and increasingly you can do. Well, I think I was gonna say you can do really important stuff online. That's really understanding it for many of us as your reference to cash is where indicates the most important parts of our lives are online. I have a new a book chapter coming out called the forecast for anarchy. I don't really like that word so much, but that's in the title of the book, and I've got to use it. But in that chapter I describe a scenario where -ffective -ly it's not to special jurisdictions in the real world that end up competing for governments and improving governments and basically giving us an option, but rather governments in the virtual world and increase increasing parts of our lives are going to be. Moved to that world, and they will be out of the reach of real space governments, and that's going to make real space governments and the long run. It's gonna make them to recur to an earlier theme rather like dinosaurs in a world where now there's mammals now. I know you're thinking, oh, the dinosaurs are going to go extinct, but that's not what happened to dinosaurs. Really they evolved to they've all been two birds. And if I have to live in world Donner's birds, I'm going for the birds birds are fun. They're charming. They're useful. They're harmless. They don't kill millions. Whereas dinosaurs ice governments do so this uploading of governance is great. I'm super happy to work in that field. And now, we'll talk about some of the issues you raised. Are you ready for that? Denise you were gone. Yeah. Doing talking about Facebook or Denise sorry. I mean, a you'd said her name is cash cash. Yes, cash her her piece was about trying to extricate yourself from the systems that have become so much a part of our lives, and she's had a difficult time doing that in his documented aren't also something about that that recurs special jurisdictions. So imagine I'm trying to do this here. I don't use. I could use the dry race board. But I'm wired in imagine. These are people in a society is people like you and me, and we use the internet these people in our society, our network society, and we're kind of under the aegis as it were of Amazon particular her stories are really kind of scary. I'm a tech guy. Read a lot of this stuff. But her her story about how getting Amazon out of your life is so difficult. Kind of alarmed me. So we're kind of under the aegis. That's the wrong word. You just means protective. We're we have we have a lot of Amazon our lives all of this. We're not really it's hard to get away from him on you got to if you leave this area, and you want to be outside Amazon you end up. Outside of the world where all your friends in the activity is and that's not good either. So maybe what we need to Kerr's me in our conversation today, I see special jurisdictions doing this, and this comes from my work in French Polynesia because when you're in French Polynesia, you can't help but note, how wonderful it is to set down your cell phone and dig your toes in the sand, and relax, and and it's not like I'm coming up with this idea right now because I was there with a lot of wonderful people who became close friends, and we just spoke about the world, we foresaw living in French Polynesia on us unassisted and a lot of it was very low tech. And so the idea I have here is maybe what we need is an institution like especially information zone. And we go inside it. And we're protected in the sense that we don't have to interface with Amazon there. We put down our cell phones. You can even have a rule no recording here. This is where people are just gonna live for awhile. Now, you're thinking, oh, yeah. That's a beautiful dream. But people can't live like day to day on the idea is if you you can't do that in our world for us. It's like vacation you go to Belize you go to Honduras, you've gotta Rotan Honduras. Wonderful place to vacation wonderful so safe. They even speak English. They're yes. But you go to rotate hundreds for two days two days, you can put down your phone, and you come back, and there's a ton of E mail, and you got to go back on Amazon and order, the groceries and everything else. No, I'm imagining we create an institution which interfaces for people and says, basically, you don't need an identity on Amazon. We got you covered. We know that you need these many eggs, and you like that kind of skirt and we're going to see to that. And all in Amazon, we'll see thanks to the buffet. We provide is that big unit over there again ordered. Two thousand eggs and Amazon won't know where it's going. They don't know that you like eggs in Idaho since just an idea for you, which the more I think about it the better it sounds. But that asked me tomorrow, right? So I think what you're sorta mapping out a lot of people have been thinking about ways in which there would be trusted third parties that you entrust with your data that then interact with larger entities like social media or e commerce sites. So you've got an aspect of that in there and also in aspect of a private government system that would be that may be would be that third party trusted entity, and that would house that data, and because it had, you know, a group of people that were all participating it would further. I don't know I suppose it would have bargaining power because of the volume of people that represented. Perhaps it would have better capability of anonymity and protecting data. I don't know. It's an interesting concept. I've I've definitely been paying attention over the years to people who want private trusted third parties to be the data interface. But I've never really thought about integrating that with a private government system as well. So that that's a really interesting concept that you just mapped out on your legal pad their Tom. And so what do you what do you think about Facebook as a Facebook against sort of offshoring and subcontracting out this dispute resolution system that would govern disputes that arise on the platform. Well, I'm not ashamed to say. I have a soundbite for you on that. And here, it is Facebook is not setting a precedent. They are finally following the precedence. When you think about how important Facebook is to some people some people's businesses how they have it integrated into their economic well-being, or if it's like an organization, a political organization religious organization activist organisation Facebook walks in shots these things down they are powerfully impacting people's lives. And not only do they know that at Facebook. They want it. They want people to integrate Facebook in their lives and rely on it. Okay. So so far so good. I got no problem with that. I use Facebook. I use a lot. I like it doesn't number good things for me. But when you have an interface with another party and other institution, and you have a dispute with it. He don't let either party settled the dispute if I have a contract with Hertz rent a car, and it has claws, and they try this. And this is clown lawyering. And they have a closet says if you have a dispute with her trainer or goes to private arbitration, I read that and I go, okay. And the dispute will be decided by a panel of of hurts as CEO CFO and see. Oh there Jackie of officers. That's a joke, and no other court would enforce that. If I go sue Hertz, by the way, nothing against Hertz rent, a car is I one of mine, I'm sure their cars are great. If I if I sue Hertz rent a car in a district court, and they tried to remove with at arbitration clause. Not only would they not get to remove the case. There's no way of a public court or no way incorporate say, oh, yeah. You guys go to settle the dispute against yourself by yourself. No way anybody would let they probably sanctioned up, or at least I'd say this whole this clauses unconscionable and do that exit out. So you see that's where the law is everywhere else except in two areas. One is Facebook and Facebook gonna fix that. And I salute them, and it's about time and the other place had two fingers up. I don't wanna flip off your friends place to play. Not gonna give the thumbs up on this. We can of the other places the government of the United States and the states of the United States, where if you have a dispute against your government, you go to a government court, and that's not right. And I have a chapter in the book your next government about citizen courts. And yeah, you street that tapper if you agree with me that if it's good for the goose is good for the gander if private parties don't get to settle disputes against themselves. Why does the government get to decide disputes against itself? Now, you might say well above we've gotta have court settle disputes. I'm a house we're going to do it. And I say, Hello private arbitration. So I propose if I have constitutional claim against the government of say, the United States government United States. You're infringing my first amendment rights. Stop it. I could be able to take it to a body formed in the same way that private parties formed fair panels for deciding their disputes. We just again we use. We take it off the shelf then to use your beautiful for aids and the way other institutions like, you know, big private corporations settle their disputes and private arbitration is we've got a French and a German company, and they have a fight. They don't use Germans or French to settle the dispute they tried that resulted in a couple of wars. No, they they do something. Like this. The German says the German company says I choose that arbitrator. She's trusted qualified to take an oath independence. And the French company's has what we choose that guy and those two arbitrators choose third arbitrator. We have a panel of three arbitrators in that nobody can say is unfair. And that's how we ought to do our fights with government, but back to Facebook active Facebook, I don't wanna get too far afield. It's the same problem and Facebook is going to fix it. And then and in a way, we're going to be able then those of us who are aware of this issue. The gotta say to the governments. Elsewhere. Hey, look, even Facebook got on board when you fight Facebook about Facebook, you shot me off what the heck you can't do that Facebook. Facebook doesn't get to make the call on their own oil. We decided to cut you off in your livelihood. That's our decision. That's crazy. You gotta have an outside party. I'm surprised that no clever. Attorney has started litigating this with Facebook already clever attorneys listening right now, I see an opportunity any money to be had you should go after that clause that mechanism whatever Facebook is doing where they are deciding the fate of the people they are harboring without any independent review. That's unconscionable. It's gotta stop. I'm glad they're fixing it. I'm saying about time, and if they drag their heels, you should sue them or something it's not good. They need to change it. Well, there certainly are plenty of lawyers that have bent had no reluctance to sue Facebook over the years. Your. Right. Right. Surprising. We'll we'll sees on this. Actually, more of a defense than an independent claim. But let's not get into the weeds somebody'll figure it out. Yeah. I mean, I guess. It goes back to the point that Facebook is a huge institution. That's in some ways acting like a government in people's lives. But it's not it's still a private party gets to make its own. It's to have its own ecosystem. It gets you enforce its rules. You know, that's what our system our capitalist system of government. Let let's do. So we'll be used to appoint. Right. Yeah. Facebook under law of the United States. And I think almost everywhere the other places reading less forgiving of private retracing United States Facebook. No private party is going to be able to enforce a clause that says in disputes between me private party and you private individual. I loaned gets to the settle those disputes no outside court will enforce that clause and allow Facebook, for example to remove the case from the public court. So there will always be over one. Thing the private institutions cannot do should not do. And that's why so shocking. Facebook is only now that one haven't been called on this and to they're only just now figuring out on their own. Oh, maybe we should have, you know, afford some independent review of our dispute resolution mechanisms. Absolutely. And I'm so fascinated with how that's all going to play out in how they implement it. So we will continue to take a look you mentioned the chapter that you've written is is the forthcoming book called the forecast for Anneke. Or is that the title of your chapter? It's a chapter in the book and the book is the Rutledge guide anarchy. I think sorry, I don't quite remember the title of the book, it's forthcoming. So it seems like this is a good opportunity. We've been talking about some things that are already existing in the world. Now, it seems like your chapter here sort of gays is more into the future and forecasts. What may come and as you say the title is rather provocative? But why why don't you explain why you think that anarchy is in our future? I said I don't really care for that word Montana. Arche means a lot of things to different people. So let's say instead stateless societies. If I into saying anarchy, we're talking about society's institutions that are stateless. And what is the state a state is? I'm using max Weber's definition, which is pretty standard. He was a sociologist it is to paraphrase. It's an institution that credibly claims a monopoly on the justified use, of course, if force within a territorial area K justifiably claims a monopoly. They don't always exercise it. They often say states often say you have a right to self defense. So you can't use Coursey force people in our jurisdiction, but they claimed monopoly, but that's our call. We can take it away as they've largely done in Britain, sports sheep. But anyhow, so that's a state, and we're talking about mechanism societies things that are stateless. And I'll say right now in that sense of anarchy. We most the time the best parts of our lives are anarchistic. Right. Thank you Vange giving dinner with you and your friends and family, and that's no there's no rules. There's nobody walking around with a badge. You get these things because you love each other that you care for each other. You have fun together at your workplace. You do the things you do because there's somebody with a bad over in the corner tapping at baton, no do it because you care about your job, and these the people you work with and you have exchanging obligations, whatever once in a great while though, the state suddenly becomes at the, you know, a very pointed issue and violate the law and they come to arresting. But most of the time our lives are artistic and the better for it. Now back to the forecast in this chapter actually venture forecast. I don't put any money down. But I actually wasn't sure I wanted to do this. And I did do it I make forecasts. And I say around the year twenty thirty. Around the year twenty thirty there's gonna be a lot of political turbulence, and we're gonna see basically a popping of the status bubbles. I view the the state now is kind of in a bubble economy. It's a remember earlier, we said that that I've you all this as we're talking about governing services and right now the governing services industry is provided in part by monopoly providers states, and then non monopoly providers, all these private jurisdictions and all kinds of institutions. Homeowners associations kind of run little governments and things like that online. We have governments to so. So the state is bubble is going to pop around twenty thirty. I'm just and I get this for financial forecast laid out in the chapter. I don't do this work myself. I just say because not news really to most people who are paying attention that there's unsustainable. Forecasts head unless we radically change the way government is financed. United States around twenty thirty the bad stuff is gonna hit the fan. And that's going to result in a number of big changes relatively quickly part of the goal of this chapter is to give us a heads up. It's a little bit like whitewater rafting if you've never seen what's around the bend. And it gets rough. You're in trouble. If you know the route for at least can see ahead. When you can maybe make it. Okay. And that's what I'm trying to do. Here is give us a lay of this turbulent stretch ahead. So twenty thirty around then and what we're going to see is basically the collapsing of the financing of governments that could manifest itself in a number of ways. I don't think it's going to be especially violent because I think instead of like one big pop what we're gonna see is kind of foam. It's like when you want you making nice, lather, your washing your hands at the sink. You got a lot of bubbles then you wince it off in the water and those bubbles are popping, but it's not disastrous. And that's the nice thing about all these many jurisdictions. You know, they're kind of like diffusing governance. So we're going to actually see them taking up a lot of the load off the shoulders of traditional governments. So that the effective scope of traditional states is going to shrink it's their roles in our lives, for example, if we move over transactions. I don't actually think it'll be bitcoin. That's another topic. I've been working on some legal attacks to bitcoin and other permission list networks, which have me terribly worried. But I. Can't deny they seem to be very plausible threats. I'm not advocating them into saying these are credible threats to bitcoin and other permission list networks, but I do think we'll be something like crypto currencies that will allow people to exit from traditional Fiat money, and I'll have huge ramifications on the financing of traditional governments around twenty thirty though. That's when it'll be like, you know, last call. And states will that'll be that'll be the k t boundary for states k t boundary marks the end of the dinosaurs. And the kind of rise of the mammals, and it's going to be for us around twenty thirty for governments. And dinosaurs didn't go away and states are not going to go away. But after this boundary, they're not going to be the big lumbering beasts that currently threaten our lives. There's still people mostly guys I almost said guys probably mostly guys with their fingers hovering over the buttons nuclear weapons. We gotta get rid of that. I could kill us all crazy, and we're going to fix that. If we make it to twenty thirty and how's it going to happen while the tap goes into that? I'll just stop there. I've given you a date and risks a prediction and giving you a metaphor of the popping of bubbles. So it's not it's more like in wash hands a government. That's how are going to pop and we'll be better for it. So do you feel like that will happen on a global scale? Basically. Yeah. Except I mean, it depends, of course, Globus huge, and we I care about because those people live under the big governments. But certainly western Europe United States. I believe China. Also the forecast, I looked at I believe they include China Japan. They all basically have the same pressures comes in different forms in different strengths. But all of them are over extended. And the reason the knees is in the very nature of state ISM for it to create these bubbles because it's a really crummy way to run an economy pushing people around is very inefficient. And to the extent we can use more efficient mechanisms for coordinating our behavior. That's what we're talking about. How do we all get along? How do we like not step in each other's toes? And giving one person a badge and baton turns out as a really crummy way to do it. And that's why they always collapse. Eventually, I could definitely see what you're describing. Evolve. The way you've described it. And and think your timing is probably, you know reasonable. But I'm wondering when this happens if we have all these private government zones. How does anything get done? I mean, not everything's gonna have the same off the shelf. Oh, s so if you know one municipality twenty miles away from another municipality has a totally different system of government, and the state has receded to such a point where it can't really mandate uniformity between the two I mean, you really are talking about anarchy. I think there is a risk of chaos entertaining. The form of chaos, and it's it's bad practice to lower your head in pretend that's not a risk there. And they're even black swans whenever you hit turbulent times. There's risks that we're not even you and me nobody is thinking about it's at some. The society is more vulnerable vulnerable in times of great change to those kinds of dread risks. So I'm not pretending. It's going to be easy. And it's a forecast. Right. It's not a it's not like train tracks. It's what you're gonna get there. It's pointing in that direction saying there's a pass over there. Good luck through the brush. But I think the best way to think about it is to recur to the analogy of computers. Remember, we talked about code is code, and and we can but let's take a little part of the computers. That's about telecommunication networks some ancestor of mine. Got this whole bell system thing started, and they used to be that was telecommunication network. Awesome. Things about that, which we gave up whatever I gotta say using packets which networks is is really a lot better for a lot of applications versus a circuit switched network. So your basic state is like a circuit switched network a circuit. Switch network is different from a packet switched network like the internet, and that there is one line that connects two points. If somebody steps in the researchers in snips, the salon, you lose the communication, or as a packet switched network is more robust and point is the analogy is the transition. We're seeing is rather like the transition from circuit switched, telecommunication networks to pack. It switched ones. That's what we're going to kinda see around twenty thirty that analogy suggests and by the way, and the algae does hold up because back in the world of say, we'll say nineteen fifty through like. Early nineties. There was like a in most of the world there were telecommications would basically don't circuit switching and they were connected. These systems only at the borders. If you wanna make a call to the Ukraine in nineteen seventy he didn't just pick up your phone, and do it just didn't work that way. And you could maybe call somebody in England it worked. Okay. But there is some stuff that had to happen at the borders. So that's a world we live in with states. Right. We kind of have exactly the same. So what we're going to see as a transition from as we saw from circus, which networks Pakis which at works. I'm sure there was some turbulence. Is no risk nuclear war there. So, you know, the risks of dire results were lower. But still we worked it out. And we ended up are in this world where we have packet switched systems of different flavors, which largely communicate through their borders. You know in pretty efficient ways it's not perfect once in a while. I want to read a Twitter, I'm not on Twitter not at signed up. I just want to mess with it. But once while there's something on I'm going to read I can't read it or you know, it's like a different protocol. I can't get access not the end of the world. And that's what the world would be like for us after twenty thirty. If we're lucky things work out. Like, I think they might basically each of us will have a contractual commitment to one or more governing systems, probably or more. I might have a contract with a region that provides national defense of a certain sword and natural disaster preparedness, and then I'm also a member of homeowners association, which regulates very finally my detail detailed way might behavior tells me when I. Can put on my garbage can when it can't. And but it's all contractual and once in a while, I get fed up with one arrangement, and I make it with some other party. And it's just a matter of like going online, and I probably use some kind of token is economy to choose the new option. That's not chaos. It's complicated. Doesn't always work Tanzania might be a little slow. They might be stocked with circuit switched networks for awhile for longtime, just like dinosaurs. Revived in the big clunky form for long while some of them. They're still going to be states around. It's going to be interesting. I recommend you read for a number of reasons. Recommending read Neil Stevenson is one of my favorite authors. And I signed him in this paper a whole section of this chapter is let's see what people who write really entertaining works of fiction say about a possible future of government. And it turns out you get fantastic stories. Neil. Stevenson, snow crash diamond age even crypto Nomo con has some of this stuff going on that man has a vision of the. Future which I borrowed from liberally. Yeah. Love you'll see Evenson as well. Okay. The final thing I wanna hit before we let you go today as you mentioned crypto currencies, and they're growing role in our society. But they to you talked about their train tracks, and you're gonna hit some brush along the way they've they've definitely been hitting the brush and partially in the form of things being put on the blockchain that folks don't expect to be there that can corrupt or Bruin the experience you mentioned to me in an E mail there story that just came out this week. Why didn't you tell us about that? Sure, it's not the first time it's happened. But it's a, you know, it was just the most recent example of people putting on publicly accessible permission lists networks in his case. It was a the SVG SBC chain. The is that what is Potosi SV? Yeah. A bitcoin SV bitcoin Tosi version money button runs an interface with it and somebody used that service to put on that blockchain some child porn. And any permission. Louis network is going to let people upload whatever they want. Upload and bitcoin itself, doesn't leave you much room to store images like, you know, child porn, but ethereal does give people a lot more room. People. Have likened these blockchain network's public bulletin boards, quite true and more than that. They're like like public bulletin boards. Where want to top there? You can't take it down which for freedom of speech is awesome in a way and for historical. Accuracy is crate and for course, for crypto Kurds for spending. You gotta have it. But it also means if some creep goes up there and slaps up a piece of child porn, you can't take down unless what unless you do a hard fork. So basically what we see here is. I don't like this myself. I got some money bitcoin, I will say and I wish. Could say, you know, it's going to be awesome. I'm going to be able to retire on that. But I got to admit this has me worried. There are solutions and the solutions and brief all involve governance, not governments governance, and what this means is for these networks to protect themselves from legal attacks premised on the unauthorized distribution of blockchain databases that include elicit data. Such as but not limited to child porn. You could also have copyright infringing data you could have trade secrets that oh belong there. You could have in some countries. Religiously prohibited images as lots of ways to make people upset with data. So. If these online permission lists systems don't figure out a way to deal with that. They're going to be hard fork. Or they're going to be having fights with every local government that can find what somebody hosting a full note if bitcoin. You know, if you're hosting a full note of bitcoin full bitcoin node, and you know, there's copyright infringing on their child porn you've received a notice, you know, that there's trade secrets on there. Somebody's going to be knocking in you're gonna have arguments. But I can't guarantee that you'll get out of it. And I actually at this moment think you're in deep trouble. If you do that. Do you think that this brush is that can hit could derail some of these networks or that they'll get through it? If they there's a number things can happen. I mean, I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong in a way a lot of my friends. Ted our task you just mentioned him earlier. I want him to succeed. That's one reason. I got worried about this. I started thinking about my friends in trouble. So I could be wrong. There's that there could be legal reforms that could be there's a chance lawmakers as well. This is up. This is methanol blockchain. We gotta fix copyright law and chop worn law and trade secret law and defamation law. Could happen. Maybe maybe this will somehow be tied up in that twenty thirty. You know, bubbles popping thing. It could be some complex interaction of state saying we can't stand this blockchain, and we have traditional legal tools to shut it down and people running blockchain saying alright now you're getting really annoying. We're throwing the switch. Maybe that's how it will happen or this is actually the last. Opportunity kind of out from this if I'm right in it's a problem and states actually act on their traditional laws, and they start lowering the booms the solution will be a couple things one. You have the Hartford tick rid of the garbage. That's on there. But it's still relatively early in, you know, the history of theory, and bitcoin and all these other blockchain so this is an early hard lesson. And it's just one more hard fork really for most of them hard work to do a fresh start. And when you do that fresh start. Well, you gotta have friends governance. You gotta have a system in place where if an authorized Representative of an authority with guns that can come and shoot the people running your full nodes comes up and knocks on the door and says, you're blockchain has some very bad stuff on it. You got to be able to say, we'll stop it rewind. We got rid of the junk. Are we good now status in the state of say, okay and walk away, and then you can start business again. You can't do that now because we don't have the systems of governance in place, if you create those systems, governance, you gotta shot you gotta shot you still got to have cooperative statists. But I think they're under existing law. We're very close to something like that with DMC title to the least you could do you could settle. I think. The worst problem is copyright. I am a copyright guy. Another one I books I have it. Here is is intellectual privilege. So if you like copyright, you should read about in my book, intellectual privilege, and it's available freely align. Yeah. Giddy full, so copyrights, the worst threat to block chains, but DMZ titled to the notice and takedown provisions of used by Google, YouTube, etc. To kind of not have copyright wreck. Their networks their their databases, we could easily extend that to I think theorem, bitcoin and other network time. Oh said permission list. But here's the thing. You could still make them mission lists, maybe, but you gotta have something to rewind. We gotta formalize the forecast process or you can institute, I think is actually where we're headed permission full systems systems that are not that are permission permission and there's different flavors of that. It doesn't mean we have to be like an iris scan in a fingerprint. You know, every time we get online. Maybe it'll just be robust pseudonyms. Maybe that's the way to do it. Just robust pseudonyms we can have virtual persona which act as buffers between our real selves and Amazon and everybody else online and those are robust over time and can have assets and reputations and things like that. And they will participate in this online, governance and that will keep the status from shutting down Blockchain's. So you're suggesting that there could be again, this would come from a traditional state legislature or maybe a new kind of privatize state rulemaking body where. Part of enabling a blockchain based currency to thrive would be noticed take down system like the DMCA if they're out there yet they have a safe harbor. They take it down. They, you know, police they're not work that way. But there they're somewhat shielded from personal liability. Yes, as we'll put Denise in the more think about the more. I like I'd only just got into this is like my latest project, and I like that analogy in part because there's really YouTube is kind of permission lose in own away. Basically, I can we can up load anything we want the kick it. They don't like it. So that's kind of nice. You know, open access was a good thing as long as you don't net span caused permanent damage. That's really something. You've got to think about especially with some of the stuff that is riskier. So it's complicated. It is an I for one I'm not entirely sure that I think that governments are gonna continue to permit. These currencies to thrive and expand and diversify in the way that they have in the last few years. I think, you know, they're plenty of governments around the world who view cryptocurrencies is a pretty big threat. I know that I say, you know, blockchain technologies in general. Probably more likely to thrive, but some of the crypto currencies. I think are you know, what are there? More than twenty five hundred of them. Now. I think that the SEC and other entities looking at initial quaint offerings in that kind of thing are probably going to put some controls in that. We're we're not seeing yet. So that things will be a bit constricted not as wild west as they have been. But you know, it is it is a fascinating ecosystem to pay attention to. And I'm glad that you are doing. So so any final thoughts about that before we sign off for the day. While I was getting not speaking for new client and only besides again, I'm not advocating these kinds of of of activities. I don't want people to put bad stuff on publicly accessible Blockchain's. And I for the most part don't wanna thirties messing with Blockchain's. Although I gotta say if they're being used to do it. Listen activities that could be justified. I'll just stop with that. Okay. Tom w bell. It has been so interesting to chat with you here today. Thank you so much for making the time to join us here on triangulation is there anything going on at Chapman or anything else that you would like to highlight for our listeners in yours today before we sign off always great things going on Chapman here in the heart of Orange County with inside of Disneyland today. Snowcapped mountains, I love it here. But I do want to say because you told me I could Denise I will be sending to you. And through you, your watchers some links if they want to see some videos, I have a short video on you, lex. I can send very digestible a long form video on that. He's gonna everything and your next government. And yeah, and I'll make those available in case you didn't see enough my face here. Yes. And just a reminder we've been talking about it a lot on the show today. But Tom w Bell's book your next government from the nation state to stateless nations is available. For your perusal at your convenience on your platform of choice. It doesn't have to be on. Please write reviews on Amazon. I got admits a huge market everyone have user. All right. Cool. Well will encourage people to do that. And it's been just so nice chatting with you here today. I'm glad we got to do this like wasn't us. Thank you. And thank you also to your listeners and viewers. Folks. Thank you so much for joining us here on triangulation. We wanna let you know that we record this show, of course, Fridays at eleven thirty AM Pacific time, two thirty PM eastern time, and you can watch live at twit dot TV slash live as we do that. We also want to remind you that we do an annual survey here at the twit network, and it is available for you now to please participate in let us know what you like what you don't like what you listen to cetera et cetera. It is at Twitter dot T O slash survey. Nineteen we would love to hear from you. We want to serve you better. 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