7 Episode results for "George Tan"
Part One: The Woman Who Invented Adoption (By Stealing Thousands of Babies)
"Welcome. Welcome. Welcome back to the Bob left sets podcast. That's right. We're back with all new episodes with your favourite musicians, comedians promoters, and behind the scenes people just like my newsletter where I analyse the issues I'm gonna go deep with the guests. So if you want to know what's going on in the entertainment industry, you've got a tune into the Bob left sets podcast on the iheartradio app. Apple podcasts. Wherever you listen to your podcast. Let's hang in my over. I'm Robert Evans, host of behind the bastards podcast where Sophie shakes her head disappointedly at me. But it's accurate. I'm I'm hung over for this episode as well. We talk about bad people worse people all history. Everything you don't know about them. My guest for this episode is so FIU, Alexandra comedian, host of the private parts, unknown podcast and anything else. I should they should should toss on that. Just genius genius multi hyphen it hyphen it turning. Yeah. Yeah. I will notarize your it's excellent. I love having things notarized. I love pretending. Well, have you ever heard of a lady named Georgia Tann? Now, if you've ever heard of a thing called, adoption, no he pronounced Odier advancing dope shit dope. Doc, Georgia Tann, invented adoption. Oh, yeah. Seems like a great thing. Right. How can you invented option? Well, we'll be getting into that a little bit. But it's not always something that people have done. You know, you're telling me K people weren't like, oh, I'm going to raise this baby. Yeah. But they didn't like it wasn't like the process of adoption like, oh, you're saying you founded an agency she founded the she built the modern structure through children. Kind of it, isn't it isn't we'll get into a little bit. It used to be a thing that people didn't think was a good idea for some reasons which will discuss taking other people's baby. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't like that idea. They thought it was a bad idea, partly because he jenex because like they were like if you're if you're if your mom, you know, was dumb enough to die. Then you're going to grow into a stupid person. We don't we don't want. We want smart people reason stupid babies. That's just that's just bad bad stuff. Yeah. I mean, everybody was racist in the past and terrible to just in the past just in the past. Thank god. We got over that shift. What a beautiful world we live in what he wonderful place. Now. I do want to note up top that we're not in the habit of giving like trigger warnings and stuff on the show because it's show about the worst people in history. And we talk about like genocide every third episode. And like, you kinda know what you getting into the show called behind the bastards. But there's gonna be a lot of talk about child death and molestation in this one. So heads up everybody. It's I'm so glad this is that Pacific. Thanks. Thanks for coming on. So. It was like, my brand should get more edgy. This might be the darkest one. We do. I welcome the challenge. She's pretty I am the night. Yeah. We are all the night. Yeah. Now in eighteen forty eight Europe was convulsed by a series of violent revolutions, mini which threatened up into the centuries old order and rain in what the elites at least considered to be an era of unspeakable chaos. The United States did not experience this wave of revolutions, of course. But many of our richest assholes watch what was going on in Europe and got real scared. They didn't want that happening here saw Europe doing a lot of revolutions, and we're like we don't want. None of that. Socialism thing. Looks real scary. Let's make sure that doesn't happen. So one of these guys was a dude named Charles Loring brace Charles was a Protestant minister. And he founded the children's aid society of New York in eighteen fifty three and started the first American orphan trains veered to the orphan trains now. Neither had I before we started researching. This is pretty amazing. Disneyland ride it does. It sounds like a Disneyland ride, but it actually reads like a particularly dark, Charles Dickens. Doc. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So the purpose of these trains was to transport abandoned children from the cities, particularly New York into the end intake them into the newly colonized American west. So at the time Charles wrote, quote, there are thousands upon thousands in New York who have no assignable home and flirt from addict to addict in seller to seller. Moreover, the cultivators of our soil in America are the most solid and intelligent class. So Charles was concerned because most of these orphans were the children of immigrants. He wanted them exposed to what he called the civilizing influences of American life. So that they would not grow into socialist revolutionaries. So he saw all these kids hanging out in like, New York and stuff and was like these kids are gonna grow up to be like, scruffy, bearded, socialists, and they're gonna they're gonna overthrow like society. And it was just envisioning like, Williamsburg exactly, and he's like, no hamsters here. Let's bus them out to California, the least hip place. It was actually a lot more like Ohio at that point. Like like like, we weren't we weren't that far. Are west with most of our expansion. Yeah. I was just making a joke. Sorry. So. Podcast. No. I'm the best heard. You are. You're the main bastard that is like every bastard is the woman who's just trying to make a joke. I love that listeners can see because this is a an audio medium. But as soon as. When I said, I was the real bastard. Sophie started very enthusiastically pumping her fist. Like, it was the end of breakfast club. Yeah. I I am. I am the the monster at the end of the the series last episode is just going to be about me. It's a pretty great reveal. I mean, you've seen me throwing pens. Like, you know, how how terrible I can be with the Mike off Habla throwing share. Hey. Through another pin? Yeah. One pen left you better. Yeah. Better way for the most appropriate moment. There's other throw balls. I could throw those dog treats. Oh, no don't do that the dog shouldn't suffer. Sophie looks very angry. When I talk about faces faces one of do not joke about the treats not joke about the dog treats lesson learned. So Charles brace is concerned because there are a lot of orphans, and he thought they were going to grow up into scruffy, bearded, socialists. So he wanted to send him out to farms in order to get them civilized from eighteen fifty four to nineteen twenty nine roughly two hundred thousand children were sent west from New York to the countryside and on paper. It doesn't seem like it was necessarily a terrible thing. Right. You know, you got all these kids. They don't have parents send them out west that can live on an ice farm. Get that clean farm air. You know, could be could be good idea to be separated from the only stuff and will they've ever known. Well, yeah. That part's pretty dark. It actually gets a lot darker. So most Americans part. What made a dark is that most Americans at this point hated the shit out of foreign born immigrants, and like a lot of these kids were like Italian German. Thank God, we grow to that. Now, it's all just white. But at that point it wasn't. And so like a lot of these parents who would have been from like Anglo stock would look at like a German kid and be like, let's not a white kid like so I don't have to treat them like he's like my son or anything I can just use him as you know, like a mule like like the same thing you use like a draft horse for. So the a lot of the families were willing to take kids off the orphan train, but they weren't willing to raise them as their own. It was much more common to treat them as free labor. So the orphan train was not quite child slavery, but it wasn't super far from child slavery either. And it was basically child slavery. So I'm going to quote from Chicago Tribune article on the subject, quote, an eighteen eighty eight the New York juvenile asylum distributed fliers announcing that it was bringing a group of children ranging from seven to fifteen years old to Rockford on September sixth. They may be taken at first upon trial for four weeks and afterwards if all parties are satisfied under indenture girls until eighteen and boys until twenty one years of age. Age. Place to have a Jonah like once every thousand times in history off to be a farm slave as long if you're late like sure will be raped, but it ends at eighteen. Oh god. Yeah. You're right. They all got one hundred percent hundred percent. Yeah. The pad. He wanted me to come on the d'arno hundred percent writing it right up. Yeah. Marguerite Thompson was one of those little kids. She later recalled to to the tribunal seen that does seem early reminiscent of a slave auction, quote, they're skinny muscles being poked and squeezed on the station platforms before they were taken in by families who wanted to little more than farmhands and showed them little affection. So like they would literally train these kids over to like some town in the midwest. And like set up an off like like put them up on like a block. And like, this one's muscles. This'll kill push ho- real good. This kid be good at farming. Like pick up these kids. They're yours until they're eighteen or Twenty-one. Like, yeah. It was an indentured slave. But black people didn't even get out at eighteen or on. No, it certainly not that bad. Not nearly that bad, but it happened until nineteen twenty nine which was kind of shocking to me that like up until like when my grandpa was a kid. They were sending kids west on trains and making them injured servants until the age of eighteen it's gross. Thompson was taken in by Nebraska family at age six and made to wash dishes by foster mother who she said never gave her so much as a glass of milk. All she got for me was to work. I never got any love in that home. So it was like an indentured child labor trains. This is how kids were treated in up until the nineteen twenties in the dark, meaning to I choose you write the hall. Oh, yeah. You choose you to get kicked in the head by mule trying to trying to tell my farmland and buried in the Beckton, so sad. Yeah. That probably happened. A lot a little kids buried on a little farms out in the midwest. And the orphan trains weren't even the worst case scenario for parentless children in New York City most abandoned babies were just found dead by the cops the ones who survive we're taken to Bellevue hospital where according to Barbara Raymond quote. They were randomly assigned religions and names an infant found in an alley would be named. Charlie alley a girl found under a cherry tree near a hill would be. Become cherry hill. Infants whose discovery coincided with insatiable murder trial. We're named after the victims witnesses or perpetrators the abandoned children were cared for by prisoners, and they were named after perpetrator. That is so fucked up just because like there's a famous murder in the newspaper, and you find an abandoned it'd be little Charlie. Manson little little Charlie. Manson so bizarre weird to do love the you skipped over that. That wasn't the weirdest part on the whole thing randomly, assigning religions is pretty weird everybody Christian and that point or Protestant or Jewish people too. But like I like just the idea that like you randomly being like Protestant for you Catholic for you. Like, you look like you'd be more disturbed by the the I mean and also naming a girl cherry hill. It's like that's the earliest stripper name, right? Yeah. There's not a lot of not offer sessions after that. I really alley has a lot of options. Charlie Sherri hill. Not though. I'm sorry. Charlie alleys going to grow up to be a card, shark, and we Allie. Allie sounds like it could be anything. Honestly, he could be Charlie alley could be an actor. Charlie alley. Yeah. I mean, it does one thing I'm excited for when this drops is all the people on Twitter with last names that are hill and Allie realizing like what their family came from somebody somebody found your uncle in a ditch. Maybe or they just had that last name listener don't don't step off that ledge. They're good. That's minister hill, you're fine. Yeah. But Mr. Manson, yeah, bed news. Yeah. So children's asylums is where most of these kids who survived wound up, and they were not safe places the infant mortality rate at children's asylum averaged about fifty percent. Oh my God. Half the kids died in the good ones. Oh my God. The bad ones like New York's Randall island infant mortality rate was one hundred percent. You just send babies off to they who is working at this funding death Asya a lot of them are prisoners. So they don't give a shit. No. A lot of them are like violent criminals and stuff who are like. Well, you we gotta do something with you. Let's have you take care of babies what kind of the point of building to people didn't care about babies back. Like a lot of it's probably that like so many babies died like just because like you don't have seen. You don't have like antibiotics and stuff like so infant mortality is a lot higher. But like, but it's not one hundred percent one hundred percent unless you're at Randall's. I God, how do you tell a kid? They're going to Randall island, and I'm not flip the fuck out because they know everyone just dies there. These are infants older kids didn't have one hundred percent mortality rate. But if you're shipping baby, they're they're just not gonna make. Oh, man. That's just the baby death island. Oh, man. So if you live in Randall's island probably ought to baby ghosts hanging around there. That's crazy. It's pretty fucked up right now all ship a baby in a crate feel like they were just boxes. Yeah. Catapults maybe like who's taking care of a of a shipment of Abie's. I mean, it doesn't sound like anyone is. And then they're just probably dying on the way there. Yeah. I think a lot of them did die in transport. I think there probably wasn't a lot of feeding going on. On. I can't even picture a baby trained that would be appropriately suited. No. I every time. I would stop like the babies would just slide off the seats. There's no way there's no way this could work. That's probably where most of that mortality rate went. Honestly, I'm imagining one person minding a whole train full of babies because they don't care about them. And I'm imagining that person being very drunk because it's like trying baby. One hundred percent, you'll be drinking. They're not gonna be shitting themselves in crying. Yeah. I would be drinking too. Even if I wasn't going to kill the baby. Yeah. Yeah. We probably would to get some sleep. I was a monster. You you joke about that. But that's literally the next thing. We're about to talk. I'm not joking about that. There's a checkup short story where there's so, you know, Russian Russia, I'm Russians. Okay. Russians hadn't had serfs from really longtime, which is just like white people owning white people. Yup. And then there's a checkoff short story by this little girl who like taking care of a baby, and she's just is exhausted and wants to sleep because she's essentially, you know, a child slave. Yeah. She's like rocking the baby. And in the end, she just wants him sleep and she likes smothers the baby not on purpose because she's so like delirious and fucked up so yeah, definitely definitely children. Got murdered. Yes. So people could get sleep. And that's what we're about to talk about next so the baby farms, so there were baby farms back, then that's crazy because babies can breed. No, no. They cannot at milk them. Put a terrible farm. It's a terrible idea for farm. So what was actually going on is that like there? There would be houses in apartments where you know, since there were so many extra babies, and it was so terrible to send them to a silence. Sometimes the government would pay women to take care of these babies in. So like a woman wind up with like a houseful of babies now, some of the baby farmers received regular stipends from the government and just had in thus had an incentive to take care of the infants that the government was handing them, but many of them were given one payment in a single lump sum. So they had no reason to keep the babies alive. So they would take the money, and then let the baby starve or just straight up murder the baby in then get more babies. So that they could get more money. That's why they were called baby farms. So the baby is is what they were processing essentially for money. This was a legal to kill the babies because you weren't going to get any more money out of them. But it wasn't that illegal in eighteen ninety five one baby farmer was convicted of killing at least fifty three babies. Those are some serious numbers of babies putting up some stats on the board. Fifty three fifty three. That's like a basketball score. Yeah. Messed around and got a triple double. Yeah. You wanna guess what? Her sentence was for fifty three baby murders. Nothing three to seven years. Okay. Well, I guess I'm glad she got something. Expected them to just be like, Ed I get out of get outta here. You scam. Yeah. Another couple of babies on the way out air. Just we're complementary baby on the way out there the hallways. Nothing but babies grabbing them. Oh boy. This is the America that Balu LA George Tan was born into on July eighteenth 1891 names, kids, Balu, LA hula, Boola Boola keeps saying wanting to say beluga, but it's B E U L A H B LA Bola Boola. I think Beulah the Beulah seems right? It's one of those all of the versions. We've just said pretty good name pretty good names. But she went by Georgia. She was born in Philadelphia, Mississippi real different from the Philadelphia people know we knew that they were several Philadelphia's. Yeah. People really had a lot of hope for the concept of brotherly love back in the baby killing days. Take the hand of your brother, you take the hand of your sister. And then let's murder. Let's kill some fucking baby. It's the ninety s George's father was George Clark tan. He was a local judge. Her mother was also named to Boola Isabel tan, and Barbara Raymond the author of a book called the baby thief, visited hickory which is the town where Georgia grew up and talk to some of the older folks who'd known her family at the time. She was told quote, Georgia's mother was the most respected woman in hickory her daddy was a federal court judge the Tam home was the second one built in town. There are no streets than only pass through the woods. So this is kind of the world that Georgia Tann is grown into this is important for the baby murders. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The baby murders are important for this. Because it sets up sort of how babies were treated at the time in the woods, if you're a baby killer. Yeah. Yeah. It it. It would turn out to have been handed that she has the what I'm saying the woods or. The or the woods or a lake someplace to the quarry. Yeah. Yeah. Quarry will be released a crack creek. Georgia's mother was from a well off family in Philadelphia. Her father's family had old revolutionary war connections and connections to the confederacy. Judge tan was seen as the most educated man in hickory, which was not a super high bar in the eighteen nineties, but whatever he was infamously era Ghent domineering and a womanizer who cheated on his wife and broad daylight as the biggest man in town Neuner 's he look he loved after an insects. He was famous daylight. He would not he would not fuck it night. Couldn't get this guy to fuck this room up. He was famous for like at noon having his mistress's come by his judge offices in like for Neuner. Yeah. Which people were like, I don't know why his wife puts up with it. She was like, but we live in the oldest second oldest house in town. Yes. Second oldest house in town. Which is a good thing. Then. Yeah. Yeah. As the biggest man in town judge tan heading number of differ. Jobs in his portfolio. One of them was dealing with all the orphans in the area since this was the eighteen ninety s early nineteen hundreds and medicine was mostly mix of whiskey and uncut heroin. There were quite a few orphans to go around since the orphanages were constantly low on space judge tan often found himself sending abandoned children off to work houses and state insane asylums which were even worse than the orphanages of the period. Gotten saying the silence, there's no room for this baby in the in the in the baby house, let's just sin about crazy stand. Again. They didn't care that much about little kids at the point. So not a nice man himself. Even judge tan was kind of pissed off at the injustice of the system. So he wants some Georgia's earliest memories where her dad being like sucks that there's nothing to do with these babies, but send them off to the crazy house or a workhouse like. So yes, she grew up. You know, seeing that social problem is a central issue in her life. She also grew up quite wealthy. Her father wanted to make her into a high society woman. She later recalled, quote, I was glued on a piano stool at age five, and I didn't entirely get away from piano until it was grown. She hated playing the piano, but she was hungry for her father's affection and approval. This was partly for the same reason any child seeks parental approval, but she also had more mercenary ambitions as well. Young. Georgia's chief dream in life was to become a lawyer back in the early nineteen hundreds the way you did. This was by printing to an active attorney. That's Kim Kardashians. Doing right now. It is didn't she help get someone out of like, she something? Or something. Yeah. It seems like what apparently she had worked for months beforehand. I just read this VO guard at all. But they, but they were saying that actually that's how everybody used to become a lawyer you print it out for years. And then actually that's another way you can still do it now. But people choose to do it even though there's another way now because a lot of them feel like that's like a true way to learn. Yes system that seems like a better way to learn this idea almost any job other than like medicine. I mean, you'd still do that medicine college. You do your residency seems like that is how almost every career should be done. Agreed. Yeah. Apprentice stand up comedian getting other stand up comedians, liquor and. Yeah. Holden their whole gluing their broken dreams vaccine. Yeah. Yeah. Taping their drugs to the inside either side or in the drive over to the venue. I'm gonna apprentice comedian not allowed to joke yet. But two more years like, no, they're just letting me do setups right now. Right. Any punchline with the punch lights? Speaking of apprentice ships that's not a good way to Sieg into an ad of the also seed isn't the right way to say segway. This is a mess Sofia helped me out here. How do we would you do you like products? Let me tell you something one thing that everybody knows about me is I'm a product head product had happened product service head on top of that service hood product had on that. If your head is like sofi is in food products and services, here's some other. We're to. A Roth is are the everyday slats for life on the go there. Silence. Comfortable and go with everything from yoga pants to dresses and skirts. They've quickly become a most loved gotta have them brand. 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We're back. Good products, solid services products, better in the services, in my opinion. You know, it's different every time. It's actually who who knows about about. Another coke brothers ad. We've been getting a lot of those randomly. Yeah. What the hell who's screened in those? Nobody the ones that I read are screened and like we get to pick them. But like when it's random, it could be anything, you know, we could be could be Nordine defense systems Raytheon ads. I'll awkward would it be. If there's a baby farm commercial right after this. Kill some babies gets some Dallas. Yeah. Baby is more dollars in your pocket. Yeah. I mean, it's nice work. If you can get it. Bed be better than a factory. For who the baby or you. Yeah. You as the baby murderer the professional. No. Yeah. As the murderer. It's nice to not have a job. Other than the murdering which is more of a hobby. It's more of a hobby kind of a calling. More more of a mission. If you will that's a real symptom of how like dark life was in the eighteen nineties that there's some people like in a cramped apartment smothering babies like looking at it other people go into factories in like shit. We step not doing that. Couvert lining. Silver lining. Okay. So yeah. Georgia's cheap dream was to become a lawyer she apprenticed with her father. They called reading law and she passed the state bar exam as a young adult all in the hope that her dad would let her work as a lawyer. But as she later explained, quote, he wouldn't let me practice because it wasn't the usual thing for a woman, and I was the only girl in the family, so he'd let her learn to be a lawyer, but he wouldn't actually let her do it. So instead, how do you prevent a grown ask woman from doing something? Well, it's the nineteen. Losing her fortune, or whatever I think that was a lot of it. I think a lot of it would have just been like social shame that like that that wouldn't have gone over. Well, can you know, she's in rural Virginia in nineteen hundred s I'm just saying I would have been braver people. Yeah. Most most people weren't some people were, but yeah. So instead, Georgia majored in music at Martha Washington college in Abington, Virginia, she graduated in nineteen thirteen and wound up teaching school in Columbus, Mississippi, it became clear after a very short span that this was not her strong suit. And not the way she wanted to spend her life since lawyering was close to her. She gravitated towards the next most interesting career, social work. Now, Georgia was a lesbian and a stocky not traditionally feminine looking woman that could Loa why did we not start with the fact that she was allies Byan well because like the best. Semi as a queer person. I wish you had told me that. Okay. Okay. Very proud of her. I mean, it's pay lawyer alleged. This is very good, very impounding. Yeah. Murder mass murder three. Ended entrepreneur shits. I mean, she is like she's a she's a powerful woman in an era where that didn't happen. Very often. She's definitely like an impressive figure, but also not in not in the best way. But yeah. So she was. Yeah. She was she was a stocky. She was like a heavy build and such. And so she wasn't like traditionally feminine looking person, which was a difficult thing to deal with in nineteen oh, six in particular. So she did not fit in well with high-society. She didn't like doing the parties and galas wearing the dresses and stuff. And so Charlie work when she was like, a teenager was kind of she called it her refuge like during her adolescent years and it kept her out of parties and stuff. So like, well other girls would be doing like Attilio and stuff like that. You know, the old south sorta she would be working in poor houses, volunteering and stuff. What's sounds great in? I think was at the start like I think she'd came into this out of a place of wanting to hell. People the Genesis of Georgia's career came when she was an adolescent, her father got involved in the case of a single mother who had gotten heavily addicted to the morphine in her cough syrup at that point the penalty for drug addiction was to be sent to an insane asylum because again, it was nineteen oh six her children were institutionalized with her Georgia later recalled to a reporter, quote hours later, the mother cried out something about her baby is the effects of the dote begin to wear off ficials at the institution called my father about it. The whole family had retired, but we got up and drove into the country and they're under a pilot filthy rags in a corner of a shack, we found a pitiful baby which had evidently been given a little bit of dope. So they find this like a baby that had been abandoned by this woman who is addicted to the morphine in a cop syrup, and like pulled it out of the house after like the woman in the asylum realized that she'd left her baby behind so the tans took the baby back to their house in Georgia took care of it for a time it in the young mothers other kids were eventually sent to an orphanage. This event seems to have inspired much of Georgia's later career. A few years later when Georgia was fifteen her father plays to children and the protection of the Mississippi children's home society. These kids were not orphans though as Georgia later recalled, quote, the father was a man of intelligence, but of a mean disposition that was always getting him into trouble. The mother was from an ordinary poor family. The children were sweet attractive and appearance and Georgia was able to use their attractive appearance to basically market the kids to a wealthy family. In town this rich family adopted both children. This is the first adoption Georgia ranged again when she was fifteen years old speaking years later to a reporter, she considered it a huge success. The girl now has a degree in music. The boys finished his law degree and begun his practice. Each was given an opportunity and made the most of it. So there's some darkness in that story. These kids went out separated from their parents because their parents were abusive or so drugged up that they couldn't take care of them. The dad, you know, was in jail a lot for disorderly conduct. And the mother was poor. That's dad probably beat them. I mean. Yeah. But every I'm I'm gonna guess that was like every family and in town at that point. Sure. Yeah. But like she she didn't like specifically state that he was abusive to the kids. She just thought that they were too poor to have beautiful kids. And so sold the kids to a rich family. Tell me where she's wrong. Well, yeah, that's that that that would sort of prove to be her calling in life was finding ways to get poor kids into a wealthy families. And I'll say just have to be beautiful. Yeah. She likes. She liked the blonde kids those were the favourite kids to she couldn't sell a redhead. Well, I mean who could. Yeah. Exactly, right. Fron howard. Starting at around nineteen twenty Georgia Tann gave up teaching and began exploiting her dad's connections and powers judge to start placing children with other families. She worked with the Kate MC Willie powers receiving home for children in Jackson, Mississippi, initially. She did the important work of place in orphan children with foster homes, but according to the baby thief, quote, she became obsessed with finding adoptive homes for children who had already had homes. She would acquire these children through kidnapping or deceit. Save. If say. And if she saved them from anything it was poverty, Georgia considered poverty the worst possible condition. It was her upbringing. She was from very snobbish family that looked down on people in the shanty houses who got their hands dirty for a living. Andrew bond of Baloch. Z Mississippi told me Georgia felt she was taking children from trashy people in elevating the children now that book the baby thief, which is a chilling read. But an excellent piece of journalism goes into detail about one of Georgia's very first baby abductions quote, one spring morning. She drove from model t to a cabinet in Jasper county near her hickory hometown asleep. Inside was rose Harvey was young poor widowed and pregnant and suffering from diabetes who two year old son onyx played on the back porch, Georgia lured the sturdy black haired Brown eyed boy into her car. George's father, George C tan signed papers declaring rose Harvey, and unfit mother and young onyx and abandoned child onyx was placed with an adoptive family headed by a man named Rufus raspberry shortly after. Sorry was Rufus raspberry of fake person someone made up because. Yes, the answer to that is. Yes, he sounds like he belongs in like an old lake fable book from the south and Rufus raspberry K M more thinking of like, Charlie and the chocolate factory situation. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. You Rufus raspberries the, but that's a good reason. I would give them a child today. You need to have a child stolen versus raspberry junior. I'm going to I'm going to give your life. That's amazing. It could have been your life shortly afterwards she stole on Xs young brother of from their mother as well, the mom tried to get her children back in court. But Georgia's dad was the judge and. Did not happen. That's terrible. It was like, well, let's ask the opinion of this neutral judge daddy judge dad. Daddy. What do you think? Do you think I should get to steal these babies? That's so fucked up. But also, you said she liked blonde babies. Why did she steal this this dark haired child? Well, I mean, you know, you you're not going to start with the blonde babies. You work your way up. You know, you you you. That's just the way it goes, you know, Georgia's methods eventually got her kicked out of Mississippi, and then Texas, but she finally thank God is an I I don't think anybody cares about this. It's one of those things where like if you're getting kicked at a Texas and like nineteen fifteen for not treating children properly. You're probably pretty bad. Like, it's Texas man, a, yeah. Anyway, she finally found her forever home in Memphis, Tennessee, where she became the executive director of the Tennessee children's home society. She got right to work matching orphaned kids with new parents. But also abducting poor kids to sell to rich. Parents turn it turned out. There was a lot of money and selling the right kinds of babies to the right people. Now, I should note at this point that it convincing people to adopt babies at all. Something of a coup for Georgia. When I said, she basically invented modern American adoption. This is what I'm getting at in the early nineteen twenties. It was not a thing. People did thanks to then popular science of eugenics according to the adoption history project. Quote, Henry Herbert Goddard a national authority on feeble minded, children insisted that compassion for needy. Children was short sighted because adoption was a crime against those yet unborn the genyk threat adoption posed. According to Goddard was directly tied to illegitimacy unmarried mothers were likely to be feeble minded themselves and have feeble minded children whose adoptions would contaminate the gene pool by reproducing future generations of defective 's it advocated, segregating these children and adults in benevolent institutions where they're dangerous sexuality could be contained. Yeah. Dangerous sexuality. That's the name of my next album. That is a good album name. Yeah. That's a really good album. They should see the cover also baby farm. It's just nipples. Sniffles. The concerns even common people had about adoption are embodied by this nineteen twenty eight letter one couple sent to the US children's bureau when they were considering an adoption, quote, we are very anxious to adopt a baby, but would like to get one that we know about its parentage. Are there any homes or orphanages where a person can find out whether there is insanity fits or other hereditary diseases in its ancestors, we would like to have one from Christian parentage? So even people who are open to adopting this period of time a really concerned about it. And it it's not something that really happened very often. When George started her business in nineteen twenty four the Boston children's aid society, which is one of the largest such organizations in the US arranged roughly five adoptions a year in nineteen twenty eight Georgia Tann arranged two hundred six adoptions in Memphis alone. So according to the baby thief, quote, she developed both our business in the institution of adoption by doing something unprecedented making homeless children acceptable, even irresistible to childless couples. She combination cover them and sprinkles air is still a what does that he didn't mean? Well, she accomplished this. By insisting when most child placement workers apologize for the unworthiness of adoptable babies that they were neither children of sin or genetically flawed. They are she said repeatedly blank slates they are born tainted. And if you adopt them at an early age in surround them with beauty and culture, they will become anything you wish them to be. So it's kind of kind of a mixed bag because that's a good thing to convince people when they think that like, well, no if a baby's mom is dumb the baby's going. Well, she's saying that cool shit Shays like literally taking baby stealing putting it in her. She literally stole a baby with ice cream once by like luring it into her car with ice cream. Did I wasn't too far off? Sprinkles rate. It's kind of scary. How close you are insane. Yeah. Georgia's babies also came with a guarantee of satisfaction. Or you can return it within thirty days. Yeah. Actually, oh my God. She not only she not only invented adoption, but she invented the return policy ought a baby in saying, quote, one hundred percent of our children turn out on average better than one hundred children raised in their families at birth. The reason is that ours is a selective process. We select the child, and we select the home now Georgia's adoptions were approved by judges. Of course, it was not unheard of for some of these judges to approve more than a dozen per day. Georgia's business took off Georgia's favourite judge was Camille Kelley, a juvenile court judge in the guise of advising parents on how to deal with unimplemented divorce Kelly would in their parental rights and transfer custody of their kids over to Georgia fully twenty percent of the children, Georgia placed were given to her by Justice Kelly. Superior would come in being like we just lost their job, and like we need to get benefits or something like that. And she'd be like, okay, you gotta fill out this paperwork, and then surprise the paperwork was given up your rights to your kids. My god. That's like, you know in like. Sitcoms or something they have you sign a paper. And then they like take the top layer off often. They're like, ha ha you just sign the family farm away or whatever. But in this case, it was your baby. They didn't want your farm. She's smart. Yeah. Mary long was one of her victims when she was fifteen. She lived on a farm with three sisters, a brother and her mother who was dying of cancer. Their mother asked the state welfare department to take her children temporarily while she waited for her relatives to arrive in town and to take them instead the welfare worker took them to Kelly's juvenile courtroom. Kelly turned the kids over to Georgia Tann Mary later called meeting Georgia, quote, she had a tight lipped hatchet face. She was hateful looking mean. Judge Kelley promised to send them all to an orphanage for safekeeping. And she mostly did that but Georgia Tann wanted Mary's youngest sister five year old Christine when they arrived at the orphanage, Mary's young sister was abducted and pulled into Georgia tans waiting limousine Bessie Bessie Bessie Bessie, I can still hear her screams. I begged the nuns at Saint Peter's to tell me what had happened finally one said Georgia Tann had flown Christine out of the state to be adopted. So damn didn't want the older ones just took their young sister. And was like the only kid I need need stick the rest with the nuns g gives a fuck. Georgia was only a got say safe you're getting abducted into a limo kind of best-case scenario option. Let's people I mean objection mostly just put you in a van it is better than a van. You know, you're getting into that nice car. I'm just here for the silver lining. It's all about that silver lining. Speaking of silver linings, it's time for another ad break. Then the silver linings of these ads is that none of them will be about baby's getting stolen or murdered beautiful beautiful products. It's. Hello. It's been an Amery from WVU ours podcast, endless thread. Oh, you don't know us totally fair. We don't technically know yet either. But we do know you have excellent taste in podcasts. Humble suggestion continue your winning streak and add endless thread to your podcast rotation. It's hosted by yours truly and each episode dives into the vast ecosystem of online communities called read. It we tell stories that are ripping surprising funny. Sometimes all three like a sandwich made out of a firecracker a boa constrictor and a clown. Okay. Now who would eat a sandwich like that. I mean anyone after listening to our show. Okay, buddy subscribed. Endless thread wherever you get your podcast or listen via the computer chip, we just secretly installed in your cranium. What nothing by? We're back. Georgia was only able to get away with any of her crimes due to the shocking and total collusion of the local government in Memphis. Some of this was due to bribery of the traditional sort much of it was due to Georgia's ability to secure children for the wealthy and powerful people in town when one member of the Tennessee State legislatures. Grandchild was delivered stillborn Georgia Tann stole and procured a new infant for his daughter the very same day the baby was handed over to the legislators daughter while she was still anesthetized from giving birth. She never even knew her original baby had died. Holy five. Oh, you need a baby today. I get you a fucking baby. Like, I'll find you a damn baby. I mean, she she also invented that. Like, thirty minutes or less pizza guarantee has she kind of invented like Amazon's policy of same day delivery membership baby delivery, you know, Jeff Bezos. Now that we've said at our phones have sent him that. And he he's already he's already we've been working on this for months later ruin it. The problem is getting drones won't fall out of the sky with the baby. And we've lost a lot of. Babies that way? We have fun, but nineteen twenty nine Georgia had gotten so good at stealing babies that she just had to damn many of them more than she could place using her usual methods. I mean, that's such a classic baby abduction problem know after a while. You're just like there's team any baby I stole too many damn babies. Yeah. We we've we've all been there. Layaway gotta give some away someone one of the baby farms, just so you can get rid of the excess cinema Rhode Island in New York. The baby stuff. Oh, so many options so many options she brought up this surplus baby problem to her friend at a Gilkey a reporter with the Memphis press. Scimitar, the holiday season was approaching an Anna needed a bevy of space, filling heart warming Christmas content. The to hit upon the idea of solving both of their issues by using the space to advertise Georgia's babies, one of Georgia's ads was just a picture of several babies under the header won a real life Christmas present. Oh my God. It's getting a puppy yet. That's exactly how it sounds. I'm going to read you some of the copy from that real life Christmas present baby gothi, or what you would you. Guess. Okay. Do you wanna have a true Christmas experience? Do you want to experience? What Mary experienced when she had Jesus. Wow. I have some top notch a hundred percent blank slate. Beautiful babies that are going to turn out to be anything. You want them to be do you wanna? Have the happiest little bundle under your Christmas. Tree. Come to Georgia's babies. Baby spot you. Yeah. That's that's not super far off. I wasn't trying to be funny. I was just trying to nail it you. You nailed it. Yeah. So they add read wanna real-life Christmas present will. Here's your chance for twenty five. Children ranging in age from three months to seven years will be presented it to his many lucky families Christmas Eve, the press scimitar is making special arrangements with miss Georgia Tann to place these babies a December nineteen twenty nine ad featuring a picture of two adorable babies said this see if you can pick out the boy in the picture. No you missed. It's the other one the curly head on the right in his playmate on the left is the girl. She is eight months in the little boy is one year old. They have golden hair blue eyes and good dispositions. Applications should be sent to the press. Scimitar, adoption editor say, whether you want a boy or girl brunette blonde haired or redhead blondes, by the way are in the majority. Oh my gosh. Gotten better at in the blind babies by that point nineteen twenty nine she's like, I know the market need. I know what people want they want. They want blonde babies like she. Yeah. The ads were an instant staggering hit the news. Papers adoption editor which is not a thing that exist received dozens of calls that very date Georgia ran different ads with different babies. Every everyday that December. She called them Christmas babies living dolls and advised. Readers to put your orders in early. You want to get that baby before Christmas? Yeah. You don't want. Also, like be the one person who didn't get a baby yet. You don't let your friends they're gonna make fun of you. Oh, you didn't get the baby for Christmas. Loser. The hot Christmas gift. It's a literal baby. Yeah. The ads also took on a unsettling air like even more than sort of the commercializing of babies. There's one ad from November nineteen thirty the described a five year old girl this way, a solemn little trick with big Brown eyes. Magic five years old and awful lonesome. What why she I don't know? I my only hope is that it meant something less like risque in nineteen thirty. Yeah. Like, she. They're trying to be like she's ready to she's five. Why why I don't know? I don't know. I mean, although we'll be talking about Georgia's love of molesting babies later. So that might have been a part of it. It's fucked up. I said this was going to be like I now. A December nineteen thirty five ad for a five year old boy was titled yours for the asking in red. How would you like to have this handsome boy play catch with you? How would you like his chubby arms to slip around your neck and give you a bear like hug? His name is George in. He may be yours for the asking. She's. This is nineteen thirty five like we're not that far in the past like, they have planes that can go across continents World War Two. Yeah. It's crazy. The Christmas ads were so successful that Georgia usually sold out of babies this provided her with an ever-growing list that running that ad and then on top of it as that big sold out like stamp that they do no more baby. I'm going to go drive into the poor part of town and picks them up. But like, you know, you me like four hours to grab the NextWave. Fuck did the ads provided her with an ever growing list of future clients who she could abduct children for market to directly the Christmas? Baby stories were also a wild success from a content standpoint, it became the newspapers most popular articles in a rampant source of discussion for the people of Memphis, according to the baby thief, quote with the child dressed in lace or simply a diaper or as was master Paul advertised on December fourteenth of that first year, nothing at all our photographer cut, the young gentleman, Allah nude, but he wasn't the least bit perturb. He is seven months old and blonde like, oh my God elderly citizens, save their favourite pictures, young matrons bridge parties were enlivened by spirited. But friendly arguments over whether baby Bonnie was cuter than master Paul. Georgia's ads made adoption a household word in the region and adoptable children their faces. Eliminating the newspapers that shared table space with readers, coffee cups and jam pots began to seem part of their family. I really liked the jam pods were mentioned. We wanna make sure you knew people were having jam at the time. It was big. I mean, it's one of those things. So this is again part of like the complexity of it is because like back before Georgia Tann started her work. It was considered like shameful to consider adopting a kid. 'cause like, you know, it's going to come from your, you know, you're making your centrally like letting this lower class person infiltrated good family, and she ins that stigma by making everybody just kind of baby crazy, but she's also doing it by turning babies into a commodity. So do babies for the president Lon. Maybe it's for one meal throw in a redhead folk free redheads half off, you know, you take a blonde. Get a free redhead get some Kohl's cash future. Baby. You don't even have to keep the redheads alive. Smother me. This is the thirties. Eventually other newspapers started running Georgia tans baby adds to by nineteen thirty five Georgia Tann had placed children with parents in all forty eight United States along with four other countries. Thanks to the ads and the growing success of Georgia's business. She started to get a little bit famous. This brought more applicants to her for which she had to find more babies. It also made her rich in this is probably where she should. We should talk about just how Georgia Tann monetize adoption. So according to the baby thief, quote, she didn't openly fix price tags two children. But instead charged fees for transporting them to their new homes, Georgia directed perspective, adoptive parents to make their checks out to her not to the Tennessee children's home society, and it's in them to her private post office box in Memphis, these fees included travel expenses for a worker and the baby to be adopted in. We're doing three installments. She charged California residents one hundred sixty eight dollars for the first visit in New York City residents two hundred twenty eight dollars in eighty one cents adoptive parents and other areas which vs somewhat between these figures. The next installment of Georgia's fee was due upon delivery of the child Georgia enjoyed handing babies too. Excited couples and she often made this trip herself California residents, which are three hundred sixty dollars New Yorkers paid two hundred sixty eight dollars in eighty one cents. Now there were no call New Yorkers pay more for the first installment, but less for the second. I don't know. It's probably just because she wanted the money. It doesn't make sense. Yeah. It's that's the only thing that bothers me about this financial financials you up. Now, there were no qualifications for adopting a child Georgia Tam other than that, you know, you have access to money. A former children's bureau worker later told Barbara Raymond, quote, she placed with no regard to whether children will be happy in their adoptive homes. It was hit and miss. She was trying to place every child in Memphis. She wanted to get her hands on every child. She could since Georgia Tann didn't actually care about any of these kids. She regularly made parents wait more than a year between the second and third trips. This made it seem to the parents like Georgia related carefully scrutinize every placement before approving an adoption the reality is that this was all done to justify charging shitload of money on the third installment California residents could expect to spend a total of seven hundred and thirty one dollars forty four cents for a baby New Yorkers paid a total of a little over seven hundred sixty six dollars in modern terms, that's roughly eleven thousand dollars per Vevey. So these are a high dollar item. Georgia Tann sometimes so babies for several times that much ultra-wealthy couples could be expected to pay as much as ten thousand dollars in nineteen thirty dollars, which is roughly one hundred forty grand today normal guys surrogate like having a baby via surrogate that's about one hundred grand. Yeah. The that's very expensive. But adoption is not supposed to be that expensive. And at the time normal adoption agencies did not charge anything except for like fees to cover their basic operating costs in. So she was working through a state agency. But she was getting paid personally herself for Sharon, delivering the babies. She's a nice racket if you can make. Yeah, she's a fucking much of Georgia's profits came from bilking new couples for travel expenses this led to her increasingly selling her babies to out of state couples by the late forties. More than ninety percent of her stock was sent out of Tennessee, the more places, she sold babies in the more baby. She sold the more famous. She became in the more people reached out to her wanting to adopt babies of their own this led to an increasing series of what miss tan called roundups. Oh god. That's so dark. Yeah. Around ups roundups were conducted by groups of varying sizes that included her and or one or more for subordinates, they were accompanied by an ever changing assortment of Memphis, juvenile court employees. Social workers in deputy sheriff's armed with paper signed by judge Camille Kelley, the groups descended upon the apartments homes farms and even houseboats of poor parents rounding up their children looking them over in carrying off those Georgia deemed most marketable the reason most often cited in judge Kelly's authorization that their parents were providing a poor home environment. Georgia wasn't required to explain why she often seized only the youngest members of a sibling group, not all. Yeah. That's cool soup. Cool Georgia most of the children, she abducted were babies or toddlers usually the cutoff was around age five when she abducted older children including teens. It was because of specific requests she received from different clients as her business grew. Georgia begins stealing children in order to fulfil specific orders. One example of how this worked is the story of a thirty one year old widow and mother of six named gray scribble now grace had a social worker from the Memphis family welfare agency named Sarah Simms, Sarah visited regularly to check in on grace and her family, but Sarah was also working with Georgia tan. Dun, Dun, Dun, Dun, Dun and one day Sarah showed up with one of Tan's, other employees a woman named Helen rose Sarah told grace that she needed to sign six papers that would guarantee her children free medical care from the state. This was all a ruse, though, the papers were really forfeitures, parental rights. Once they were signed Helen told grace, I'll take the three youngest children now grace started sobbing while Sarah Helen took three for children and stuff them into the back of one of Georgia tans, limousines as grace begged them to. Stop Helen cold. The explain that we have an order for a boy if this age and type. Grace went to the local juvenile court. Order your baby or someone on your baby. I got I got this order like what do you want me to do not fulfill baby order so grace went to the local juvenile court trying get her children back. She found Georgia Tann there and asked where my baby's to. It's Georgia replied, they're on their way to a much better life than you could provide them. You should thank me for some reason race was not grateful. She continued to beg George tend to not abductor children Georgia advised. Her forget them. Now. Unlike most of Georgia's victims, grace was eventually able to find a lawyer it took her seven months to do this during this time her six year old was given to a family in Florida. Her three-year-old was adopted by a doctor in Memphis. But her four year old was rejected by the couple who bought him. They sent him back to Memphis on a train with a dollar in his pocket, but they had specifically requested habits requested him. I probably had a dent or something. You know, you wanna fresh baby. He spent seven years in foster homes before being adopted again this time by alcoholics Jesus. Hey, grace did eventually get a trial but courts being what they were in nineteen forty the issue that interested the court wasn't where this woman's children's stolen from her. It was does she have as much money as the new parents of children in the end. The judge ruled that the adoptions would be allowed to stand grace would not get her children back. The judge told her, quote, this is one of the sad tragedies of life that even a mother must endure for the best interest for children. Sorry. The other people have more money you understand. Your poor people can't raise maybe. Your report you can't have several little fours. Yeah. Not to give him away away. Georgia Tann was able to get away with so much in part because she had a tight relationship with a man who was basically the dictator Memphis at this point. He h boss Crump, according to the New York Post that is also a fake name. That is I mean with what was it? Russ Russell raspberries wrestle Rufus. That's that's the best thing to come out of this story is that a man named Rufus raspberry once existed. Yeah. And what is it boss Crump that sounds like video game boss that you have to beat the very end? Everything was ridiculous in the thirties. Like man is just a silly time. According to the New York Post, quote Crump also transplanted, Mississippi and was the sometime mirror and leader politics trumping is named after. Yes, I hope so he developed a cozy patronage with tan she paid him off and brought the fame of her society to Memphis. He in turn protected her from prying investigations, we'll city police ignored the complaints of families who lost children to tan, and sometimes even helped hand sees kids the cops guided on it if you need help stealing. Yeah. Not not a big shocker Georgia Tann seemed to see much of what she was doing a sort of class war. She believed the poor were unworthy parents in that their children were better off dead. If they couldn't grow wealthy this had the benefit for Georgia of making her look outwardly spotless to the world. Most of the coverage around here focused on either the adorable pictures of babies. Newspapers or her work adopting out babies to the rich and famous. She provided Joan Crawford with her twin daughters. God you Syria AM serious. She provided babies to lot of Turner and Pearl buck and Herbert Lehman the governor of New York a number of the children. She stole later grew up to be prominent themselves, including the wrestler. Ric flair flair was stolen as a baby by Georgia tan. Yeah. Joan crawford. Got her kids from should've led with this buried the lead on this long. Joan Crawford's babies came from hundred stolen. It's some poor fans. So we don't know where no one of Georgia's legacies. That actually persists to this day is like in most of the country started to change the records of like where the child came from are sealed. And like you like a lot of cases, you can't find out what your team is something. That's yeah. Now, you can figure it out of the certain point it used to be that it was just destroyed and like you had no access to them. They were basically sealed in most of the country, and that's something Georgia lobbied for specifically to make it harder for people to figure out where she was stealing babies from stuff. I can't believe that the legacies kinda stayed. That's what I mean. When I say, she kind of invented the modern way of Dopson in like a lot not all of it's bad. But it all started. Because like she was just trying to figure out a better way to steal in market babies. That's fucking not. It's fucking wild. In georgia. Tans business was even darker than it seems because for Georgia babies were just products like melons or bottles of beer, cartons of milk with any product, you're going to have some spoilage or breakage to deal with in the case of Georgia Tann that spoilage came in the form of a shitload of dead babies, but we're going to talk about all that and so much more when we come back on Thursday. This is a good note to end the episode on how you feel about George Tan. I mean, I I made up patch of her. And then I sewed it on my jacket and now I've torn it off. Yeah. Just feel like my previous love of her was just you know. Yeah. Not justified not justified. It was you get you get excited because the lawyer thing, and then it was like a lesbian was later. This is amazing. Baby sealer, oh, this is taking doctor and be a murderer even darker Oshii molested. Some of the baby's, okay. I'm pedal. I'm out sees. He went to plug your plug Ables share. I you can find me on Twitter and scream at the Sofia T H E S O F. I y in listened to my podcast private parts known. We talk about sex and sexuality, and we traveled around the world pretty cool that does sound pretty cool. If you want to find this podcast on Twitter Instagram twins degrom. It's at bastards pot is the is the is the handle for both. You can find us on the internet at behind the bastards dot com. Which is where we'll have these sources for this podcast listed, if you want to really get deep down into baby murder links for you bummed. The fuck out the baby is a fine piece of journalism on a super bummer of a topic. Ray? We have a shirts you can buy shirts. You can buy beer cosies. You can buy phone cases. You can buy a munitions all branded with behind the bastards babies. Yes. Yeah. We we do now sell babies I? Yeah. You know what? I am. Okay. Melissa this special brunettes for the price of a blonde. Oh my God. Yeah. Let me get in on this. Everybody should get get your baby. You don't want to be the only person on Easter new baby. And try to try to text ahead of time. Because I need to like have time to drive down to the poor part of town duct a couple of kids. Now, it goes a little bit of lead time, you'll little bit of lead time to steal some babies. You know, I only have so much room in the trunk of the car. I mean, I'll provide the limo. Oh, I'll rental. Oh. So that we can really steal in style. The old fashioned way, you'll fashioned way. Chuck him in the back of the limo and driving off sounds great. Well, oh, yeah. I have a podcast it's called it could happen here. It's not as depressing as this. But it's title sounds like it probably is it's pretty depressing. It is pretty depressing. We don't talk about jell molestation though. But it could happen here. I'm thinking or not thinking of like an ice cream party. It's like negative things about house ability. Nice cream party. And I'm saying no one's ever. Like it could happen here about something. Great like fast. Yeah. That could happen here. No. It's a bummer. That he committed the depression. You are fake. That's all I ever do is sad stuff. That's the end of the episode. Maybe it's who you woke up next to this morning. Maybe it's what you had for dinner last night. Oh, how you getting to work right now. It's invisible. But I is already making decisions for us on sleep walkers were speaking with the smartest people in the world and taking you inside the headquarters of Facebook, the NYPD and a secret lab at Google to find out what the revolution will mean for us. Listen and subscribe to sleep walkers that apple put costs on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Episode 110: Baby Snatcher
"Support for criminal comes from ABC's the fix premiering on Monday, March eighteenth, a double murder trial a media circus in a not guilty verdict. But what happens when there's a new murder eight years later with the same suspect. Did he do it again can the prosecutor prove it this time is it a second chance for Justice from the mind of executive producer? Marcia Clark comes a new murder mystery on ABC a ten episode event, the fix premiering Monday, March eighteenth, go outside the courtroom and beyond the TV cameras. Knowing can take you there better than Marcia Clark watch the fix beginning March eighteenth on ABC. This episode may not be suitable for everyone. Please use discretion. Elmo was new to Memphis. She was a single mother. She had two small children. But one was particularly young. She was ten months old very pretty child. Blond hair green eyes and alma took her for a walk. When she got back from the walk. There was a knack on her door and the person knocking was Georgia tan and Georgia tan said, I'm a social worker, and I noticed that your little baby is sick. And on a simple. She has called. And Georgia tan said, I know a lot about children. So she went over, and she examined the baby. And she kept shaking her head. And she said she sick. She needs to see a doctor. Alma simple, told Georgia Tann that you didn't have any money to take her baby to the doctor must specially for a little cold. This was nineteen forty six. We're hearing the story from Barbara Raymond Georgia tan said it was more serious than a cold, but told alma Sipple, not to worry, she explained the Chit connections. She worked with the Tennessee children's home society and could get the baby scene at the hospital for free. Alma simple, agreed that the two of them could take the baby to the hospital to be checked out by Dr but Georgia tan said that alma couldn't come. They need to pretend that the baby was an orphan in order to get the free care. So reluctantly. L Millette Georgia Tann walk off with their ten month old baby. A day later alma snuck into the hospital. She looked in the room where Georgia tans wards were. She saw her baby bouncing in her bed. Looking extremely healthy. She asked the nurse if she could hold her baby and the nurse replied, you don't have a baby in there. And the next day. She got a call from church at ten and she said, I'm so sorry, but your baby died and almost started screaming, and she said, I know she's not dead. She only had a cold, and she went to Georgia tins orphanage. But she was not allowed in a big man kept her out. She ran to the police station. And no one would listen to her she haunted graveyards. She tried to find death certificates. Nothing. Now Elma spent forty five years looking for her child, Barbara Raymond interviewed alma Sipple in nineteen ninety. I realized there was a much bigger story behind alma because alma was not the only person who had lost a child to Georgia Tann as one of Georgia Tan's colleagues once said she wanted to get her hands on every child. She could I'm Phoebe judge. This is criminal. Georgia Tann was born in Philadelphia Mississippi in eighteen ninety one her family was wealthy. Her father, George Tan was a lawyer. And then became a judge any did something unusual for the time. He let her read law at that had to have been extremely tantalizing. That is the way people became lawyers in those days. They read law with a lawyer. And she was the first woman in Mississippi to pass the Mississippi bar exam. But she told reporter in the nineteen forties. Her father wouldn't let her practice law because it wasn't the usual thing for a woman. I don't know why she did not defy him. Because she never listened to anyone else in her life. But she couldn't be a lawyer in her mind after passing the bar exam. Georgia Tann took a job as a social worker, the usual thing would be for a woman of Georgia's status since her father was a judge the Georgia would marry and have children and that she would. The power. She would have would be. Involved with the marriage and with the raising of children, and as far as I could tell George never wanted to get married and she never wanted to bear children. So that Mark tour is different. And a lot of the people who would describe Georgia ten to me would say things like well, I never knew how to take her. She reminded me of a man that kind of thing, and she was not, obviously, the typical southern w tante type. She never attended the usual parties that would have been given. Instead, she wore her long black skirts and her white shirt, and she would visit the local poor when she was fifteen years old Georgia Tan's father had a case in which two siblings had been orphaned. He didn't know what to do with them. Georgia took it upon herself to go around and talk with the wealthiest people in the community and try to convince a family to adopt them. And she did. Georgia felt that the world was divided into two very different types. Poor people were incapable of proper parenting other people people of middle or upper class were people of the higher type. And the children in Georgia's mind deserved better than being raised in poverty in the beginning of the twentieth century social workers, tried very hard to keep parents and children together, providing financial assistance to poor families to keep children from being sent to orphanages sometimes called home for friendless children. Georgia Tann did not try to keep families together. She rearranged them taking babies from poor families and giving them to rich ones. She stole a child off of a porch. There was a woman named rose Harvey, and she was very poor and sleeping in her house. Her young child was playing on the back porch. Georgia Tann lured him into her car with the biggest candy cane he had ever seen. And had him adopted by a local family later. She took his younger brother the same way. And the child was adopted into that same family now rose, the mother was incensed, and she was very upset. Obviously she challenged this in court. She did not win and most likely Georgia's father had influence over the decision. And but I was told by people in hickory that George Tan was quote, unquote, run out of town because of that she made her way to Memphis, or she became the director of the Tennessee children's home society, the city was still recovering from a deadly yellow fever outbreak more than half the city's population fled of the nineteen thousand people who stayed seventeen thousand got sick more than five thousand dollars. The city went bankrupt. A man named Edward hull Crump. Who was from Mississippi and whose own father had died in the low feeble plague? Came to Memphis. And he worked his way up to being mayor. And essentially controlled the town people were afraid of him. And how did this help Georgia Tann? What what was it about the new makeup of Memphis that was beneficial for her in her attempt to get children Georgia was able to forge a relationship with? Boss crump. And once she had his protection. She was really untouchable. How did she find her victims her children? So she took children who in the beginning were kind of already perhaps relinquished and adopted them out. But in those days children in orphanages were quite frequently. Not orphans. People would put their children in an orphanage for what they thought would be a short period of time while they got on their own feet, financially or recovered from an illness, and as so she took some of them, but as for business. Started booming. She couldn't. Satisfied the demand simply through children who were already relinquished or in orphanages. And that's when Barbara Raymond says, she just started stealing them. So she because she had so much clout in Memphis. She was able to take children right from delivery rooms. I I spoke with a doctor in the nineteen ninety s who by then was in his nineties, and he told me about when he was an intern at a Memphis hospital witnessing things like this. Women dressed up like, nurses, who worked for Georgia Tann standing outside the door of a delivery room and the minute they heard a baby cry. They would go in and take the baby. A young mother would be told. Oh, honey. I'm so sorry. But your baby was born dead. And the mother would say, but I heard a baby cry and the nurse or the pretend nurse would say, oh, no, no. That was another baby. And the mother would say I want to see my baby. And they'd say the state put the baby in the ground. Is if the baby had already been buried and they they got nowhere. These women. There were a lot of habeas corpus suits, people said Georgia Tann stole my child. Not one was resolved in favor of the father or mother who had lost a child, and that was because bus Crump had control of the town and Georgia Tann had an in with bus Crump, Georgia Tann was only interested in white children. She paid people to keep their eyes open for blonde hair and blue eyes, one of her best allies was a juvenile court judge named Camille Kelley if you were to be going through a divorce or if you were very poor. You were having trouble, you might be told to appear before a juvenile court judge Kelley, and she would. In the course of talking to you write down, the names and ages of your children and Georgia would be given this information and a few days later, you might get a knock on your on your door. She supplied Georgia Chan with twenty percent of the children. She placed one of the most complicated. Parts of Georgia. Tann story was that she was able to place children with new families at a time in the United States. When adoption wasn't popular kids in orphanages usually stayed there. Other children were sent to live with so called BB farmers baby farmers were usually uneducated middle aged women who took children in and we're supposed to care for them. Some of them accepted are wanted an upfront fee for caring for these children. And once. Some of them had the money. They felt no incentive to keep the children alive. So there were articles in the New York Times of. Baby farmers who killed children with scalding. Water by dashing, their heads against walls was absolutely unbelievable to me to read this some baby farmers even took out life insurance policies on the children and then killed them to collect the money. There was an editorial in the New York Times in the mid nineteen twenty s that decree that said that life insurance for children should be declared invalid because it was a temptation to inhuman crimes. Adoption had not been popular in part. Because of the thought that orphans came from unmarried women and a pregnant unmarried woman suffered from moral abnormalities, a nineteen eighteen report, titled the unmarried mother a study of five hundred cases describes them as repulsive misshapen depraved people worried that the children would inherit their mothers' week moral character. So these children were considered tainted goods and one interesting thing, I found was of course, there were always women who couldn't bear children who wanted children even in those days where nobody wanted to adopt children. There were women who did want to adopt children, but they could not get their husbands to sign onto this so faked pregnancies one woman. Even pretended to a born eleven children. And somehow the fathers believed this what they would do is. They would pretend to be pregnant, and then they would wait 'til maybe the husband was out of town or away somewhere. And they would pretend that the hit collapsed in front of coincidentally a baby farmers house, and they would be taken in. And then the father would be called. And he would find his wife in bed with a newborn baby which supposedly she had given just given birth to. So. I think Georgia's saw in her mind, all these. Lovely gorgeous, stereotypically blonde. Blue hide et cetera. Children on baby firms, many of whom were dying. And also the death rates in orphanages in those days on the whole for the first year of life where fifty percent, but I found one orphanage where in one year a hundred percent of those children died. So she found all these children just kind of. Vegetating or dying. And then on the other hand there were people who wanted children. So tell me how Georgia Tann change that idea of children being tainted. What did she say? She said that they were not children of sin. They were not genetically flawed. They were blank slates. They were born untainted. And if you surround them with beauty, and culture, they will become anything you want them to be. But she didn't believe that. So she went into the records and changed. Change them. So that people thought that they were adopting say a child who whose father was a composer whose mother was a debutante, and she also started placing children with very prominent people. So that locally at least adopting more or less became the thing to do. Georgia Tann bragged, the cheetah rigorous selection process that matched the perfect child with the perfect home. But she wanted her customers to be happy. So sometimes she'd send three children to the same family, and let them have a one year trial to decide which if any they'd like to key. In correspondence with her attorney children were referred to as merchandise quote in hand and in stock she marketed children as luxury items most notably by creating hundreds of actual advertisements for them. According to Georgia Tann, a baby was the perfect Christmas. Present her ads featured photographs of children dressed up with captions like living dolls for you and George wants to play catch. But he needs a daddy to complete the team. Then the ad said put your orders in early. We'll be right back. Support for criminal comes from Quim, but better electric toothbrush. Most of us are brushing evenly or for the full two minutes quip can help. It's one of the first electric toothbrushes accepted by the American dental association, and they're backed by over twenty thousand dental professionals there, no wires or bulky chargers. And I really love that it mounts drew bathroom mirror, and that it can run for three months on a single charge. What starts just twenty five dollars. And if you go to get quip dot com slash criminal right now. Get your first refill pack for free with quip electric toothbrush that your I refill pack free G E T Q U I, P dot com slash criminal. Do you think Georgia had reasons to do what she did beyond making money? She didn't want I think to bear children. But I think she must have wanted in some vicarious way to be involved in the birthing process because I was told of a man who strangely was told to pick up his. Adopted daughter baby at church tins residents, which is not the usual way. She distributed her children. And he he went to her house at night. And instead of a made answering the door Georgia Tann answered the door. Now, Georgia Tian unusually wore very tailored clothes, but she was wearing like the sort of negligee was frilly. He was taken aback and she led him up stairs and. The bed the bed covering was white. And there was a little mound in the corner. And she folded back the cover. And there was a baby girl. And Georgia tan said the space. He is perfect in every way. Now, this man who became the child adoptive father felt the Georgia Tann was kind of pretending that she had given birth to that child. Celebrities all over the country asked Georgia Tann to find the child Joan Crawford, June Allyson, dick Powell Pearl buck. Meanwhile, birth parents were desperately searching for their children begging the police and judges to help them one man searched for his little sister for thirty seven years rating, desperate letters to j Edgar Hoover finally in nineteen seventy nine he thought a letter from an employee of the department of vital statistics. That said I could lose my job like giving you this information. Your sister was adopted by Hollywood couple by nineteen thirty five George Tan had placed children in forty eight states along with Mexico, Panama, Canada and England sending kids to wealthy families outside. Side of the state of Tennessee, Georgia Tann increase fees by law. She made her money by overcharging. She was supposedly charging travel fees and hotel fee, but she was charging maybe five six adoptive families seven hundred fifty dollars. So of course. The plane fare cost that much and neither did the hotel room. I heard of people who paid five thousand dollars for a child. I think she she asked what she thought she could get now. If she had paraded legal. The fee would have been fifteen dollars. So overtime. You can see that she amassed an awful lot of money. She also extorted money from people who had already adopted children. Sometimes you're a two after the child had been placed, particularly if the child placed somewhere in her area, she would ask for thousand dollars. And they'd say will, you know, we don't have it. We're taking good care of little Suzy and all this, and she she would say that if she didn't get the money. She would take the baby back Georgia zone lifestyle. Got fancier. She bought another home back in hickory, Mississippi servants quarters imported palm trees, fountains and a room sized refrigerator. She took vacations in Cuba. There were big cars furs, it was important to her business. The embody a certain kind of wealth, and this was reflected in her orphanage on poplar avenue in Memphis. Her orphanage was an old kind of very nice looking mansion that had been donated to her by Fred Smith who founded greyhound bus lines and which later became Federal Express. He had adapted through Georgia. So it no longer exists, but it had polished beautiful floors. It had a lovely reception room. It had a room where Georgia Tann would meet with prospective adoptive. Parents. It had a nurse Reuss upstairs. For photo ops. There would be one baby crib? But in reality. There were often four or five baby's crib by the mid forties. Memphis, doctors started to speak out going on record about signs of physical abuse. And how they'd worn Georgia Tann not to remove infants from the hospitals care in nineteen forty five and one three month period. A doctor pediatrician named Dr CLYDE Crosswell later said that forty to fifty of her babies died in that one three month period. And they died of he called it infant dysentery, basically baby diarrhea, but babies are they waste so little that they can dehydrate very quickly and after not rehydrated saying a hospital or something they die. Now. Georgia Tann was very proud woman. And I was told by another doctor who worked Valentin services for her because he was desperately hoping to keep some of these kids alive. She felt she knew better than the doctors. He said one time I prescribed antibiotic for a baby, and she told the nurse not to give it to the baby. But to chart it is if she. The child had been given the antibiotic. So he said, she would not take she would not take the children to the hospital, and and would die. Tennessee lawmakers attempted to pass legislation requiring children's boarding homes to be inspected and licensed, but Georgia Tann somehow got an exemption from compliance. Her best political tool was babies themselves. She'd give them as gifts to lawmakers. She went relatively unchecked for decades. It wasn't as if the birth. Parents weren't speaking out against Georgia Tann, but it was like it didn't matter. They were always speaking out in anybody who lived in Memphis and read the newspaper and in those days everybody read the newspapers because they didn't have television. They weren't online the read the papers. One woman lost five children to Georgia tan and other women lost three children as your Japan, a German immigrant father lost his daughter to Georgia Tann. They would take them a long time. They would find because no nobody wanted to touch their cases. But they would finally find someone who would take their case. They never won. Barbara Raymond says she read case after case like this. But one woman grace Griddle has always stuck out. She was a widow with five children one day. A woman who worked for Georgia Tann showed up at her house with papers to sign about free medical care, Greece. I'm and. Workers started carrying off the three youngest children. And as they carried them off one who was carrying off a little boy named Kirby. He was four years old. He had red hair. Blue eyes said we have an order for a child of this age and type now grace ran to the courthouse and demanded to see her children to manage her children back and Georgia tan said you should thank me in grace kept calling for her children crying for her children and Georgia Tann just said go home in have some more. In September of nineteen fifty Tennessee. Governor Gordon Browning announced an investigation into Georgia tans operations, but the children's home society three days later, Georgia Tann died of cancer, but each fifty nine her death was reported alongside allegations that you ran a million dollar baby. Black-market governor Browning said he would sponsor whatever legislation was needed to quote prevent the sale of children. As investigation progressed adoptive parents had to decide whether they wanted to know if their children have been stolen by Georgia Tann, many chose not to Barbara Raymond says that even as the details of Georgia tans practices came out. Many still felt that the children were lucky to have been delivered into well. So the whole thing was just sort of allowed to fade away and after Georgia Tann died, then finally her home was closed. You say that Georgia Tann invented modern American adoption how she popularized it, and I guess an argument could be made that by making adoption acceptable. In some ways, she helped children, and I believe in some ways, she might have if a child truly had nowhere to go magin that's better than being raised in orphanage. The problem was that many many were adoptions were arranged than should ever have been arranged. My own daughter is adopted not through Georgia tan. And my my daughter should not have been adopted. I love her. She is amazing. I cannot imagine my life without her. But when we found her birth family, they're wonderful people, and they had been told, you know, you're not married. You're young you're going to have to relinquish this child. And the reason why they were told that was instigated by Georgia tan. After Georgia made adoption popular. Potential grandparents. Sawn out. You know, no one now will have to know that my child is pregnant I will send her off to aunt Bertha's in California. At least that would be the story. But in reality, the young pregnant woman would go to a home for unwed, mothers and. Relinquish the baby for adoption. And that was that so going back to my own daughters adoption. I. Kind of feel guilty. For profiting. From the pain of another woman. On the other hand, if I had not adopted my daughter had been relinquished someone else would have. But my daughter could easily her parents got married quickly. They raised three other boys. They're good people. They coulda phrase to and. She was their child. But Barbara Raymond's help her daughter now knows her birth parents and our younger three brothers. She spent time with her four grandparents aunts uncles and cousins. Ask for alma Sipple. The woman from the beginning of the story. It took more than forty five years for her to find her daughter with the help of a Memphis, volunteer agency, called Tennessee, right to know. She eventually got her daughter's new name and address she sent flowers her daughter called. They got to know each other alma Sipple said I feel whole. Raymond spent ten years researching Georgia Tann tracking down victims and interviewing them choose able to document five thousand children placed by Georgia Tann, she suspects. The number is closer to six thousand. Barbara Raymond's book about Georgia Tann is called the baby thief. We've got a link in the show notes. Criminal is created by Lawrence spore and me needy. Wilson is our senior producer audio mix by rob buyers. Julian Alexander makes a Richmond illustrations free episode of criminal. You can see them at this is criminal dot com or on Facebook and Twitter at criminal show. Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina public radio W UNC where proud member of radio topa from PR ex a collection of the best podcasts around. And if you don't know radio Topi has a very special feed called showcase where we feature original podcast series of all stripes from emerging leading producers around the world right now on showcase. There's an incredible four part series called space bridge, which tells a largely forgotten story from nearly forty years ago about technology. Citizen, diplomats and the Cold War. Do you deserve this? Experience. Have you earned this in some way? Are you separated out to be touched by God to have some special experience here? Other men cannot have. And, you know, the answer to that is no, you know, very well at that moment, and it comes through to you so powerfully. That you're the sensing element for man. And that's a. Humbling feeling. Goalless? I'm Phoebe judge the criminal. To x.
Part Two: The Woman Who Invented Adoption (By Stealing Thousands of Babies)
"Are you scared about the possibility of a second American civil war? I'm Robert Evans. I'm the host of the podcast behind the bastards. And I've worked as a conflict journalist in a couple of actual civil wars in Iraq and in Ukraine, and I'm here to tell you I am scared of that possibility. If you wanna know, what might be awaiting your friends and your family, listen to it could happen here. You can listen and subscribe at apple podcasts or on the iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts. What starting my podcasts that one wasn't good. So he's not proud of me. You know, they can't all be what's cracking my peppers? The can't even all be. What's boiling, my pig anus, which was another another hit? I'm Robert Evans is mind. The bastards podcasts we talk about terrible people. But you know, that if you're listening because this is part two of of the Georgia Tann story. And if why would you what would you just listening to part two, I get some kind of fucking maniac. Did you murder a baby? So FIA Alexandra. How are you doing you? Our guest today. Thank you so much for having host of the private parts, unknown podcast kickboxing third place. Finalist and actually I place kind of upset that you would not mention that. It's actually nude kickboxing. Actually, a lot harder than regular seems a lot. Maybe you've said that I wrote down all my credits for you. And you just kind of mess them up. But whatever sorry sorry. You mention like at least three other things that I've done. I am also America's favorite lasagna, America's favorite lasagna. That is right. That is right. Thank you. So much. In America's second, favourite, macaroni and cheese. Okay. Yes. I don't like to talk about second place. But I am also America. I mean, that's second favorite considering the amount of MAC and cheese in this country. Pretty good. Yeah. I I'm not trying to be falsely modest. Yeah. I am delicious delicious. Thank you. Well, we're talking about someone who's not delicious. Now, Georgia Tann actually is a baby thief and murderer yet. And that's what we're going to talk about today. all the murderer in. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So Georgia Tann had a reputation for being rather. Fearless. This was helpful because her habit of abducting thousands of children from poor people occasionally brought violent threats down upon her head. According to Nelly Cajun, occasionally, some people. I don't know. Like it wasn't right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. She had iron burglar-proof bars in the windows windows of her home and over the course for career three separate people tried to kill her. But all of them apparently chickened out either out of a reticence to take human life or because Georgia's scared them away. Yeah. She was supposed to be pretty terrifying. She was like a very large imposing presence in very mean in apparently at least one case like screamed at guy away who would come to her house to get revenge. Yeah. She's an imposing lady feel like it's like a challenge I'm being presented. But it's like wait too late in history. And like, yes Afia are you brave enough to kill her? Are you braving tanning? I am. But it's too late. Now, Georgia's behavior was not strictly legal there were actually laws in the US about how to adopt babies, and she was in violation of basically all of them in most cases, adoptive parents had to reside in the state. They were adopting from surrenders, a parental rights had to be confirmed in a court of law, Georgia Tann broke both of these rules flagrantly and regularly in some cases on a near daily basis. But also she had that judge in her pocket. She this was like judge daddy. And then the second one was that lady that was crazy yet. She says she likes did fuck with the legal system. Jesus lurk for her sometimes just stole babies. I mean, yeah. By the mid nineteen thirties show, social workers in Tennessee. Who weren't Georgia's pocket had started to complain about all of the laws that she was breaking in baby. She was stealing her connections to boss Crump were enough to protect your however in in nineteen thirty seven she's sorry. Bus Crump from protecting the castle in the print says I was gonna say he sounds like a guy from the dukes of hazzard. Oh, boss Crump is in a real message. Trouble again, his them, Duke, boys. Yeah. Just really a great fake name. Yeah. Is a great fake name. But in this case, it was a real guy who helped George Tan steal thousands of babies in nineteen thirty seven she succeeded in pushing through a new law which legalized adoption for out of state residents. This precedent would have a huge impact on the way. Adoptions are carried out nationwide moving forward, including today, the new law, however, did require adoptive parents to visit Tennessee before finalizing the adoption, but Georgia just ignored this part of it. And it was fine. Now, Georgia had started out as an employee of the Tennessee children's home society, which is based out of. Nashville. The director of the agency fanny Elrod was a rather soft person in Georgia basically bullied her into getting whatever she wanted. Fanny was scared of Georgia, and basically refused to do anything about the many complaints made against her employees since the children's home society did not have license from the state every adoption carried out by Georgia Tann in its name was technically illegal. But again, knowing that anything to stopper. So around up not mattering that it was a legal. Also once you're getting like amazing newspaper coverage with your Christmas babies like good like taking that lady down. Yeah. What are you gonna? Everyone's like, she's a sane. She's the Christmas baby kid, and she's the angel that gave people babies. Yeah. She's the knob angel of death. Not the angel of death. According to the book the baby thief, quote, Georgia frequently falsified the birth dates of many children, she placed for adoption in every case, which which I learned she reduced the children's age she did this to satisfy clients wishes for the youngest possible babies and to make the children appear bright even precocious well, Georgia reduced the ages of babies by only weeks or months, she frequently subtracted years from the ages of older children. So who not dumb? He's like, basically like Hollywood. Yeah. She's like. Going to be a little haggard at ten. So we're gonna go ahead gonna pull you down to a sieve seems better. Also, I something like just smart about being like, well, if I say this this seven year old is four then he seems smart like that. He's really advanced four year old and not just a normal seven year old, and I can sell them to a richer family. They're like stop saying this girl is seven she has a full seek up. I mean, he's definitely. It does make me wonder what RIC flair's real ages. Oh my God. I keep forgetting RIC flair's. It's the site. Baby. Poor RIC flair. It's gotta be traumatic now though. You know, how many babies she stolen placed like, so many Americans probably are not living with their families seventy. But we don't know that he's seventy seventy two could be seventy four probably aged them down. I made Rick flair seem like a super smart baby. Nothing. He wasn't Arctic's Spady. Yeah. I mean, nothing against RIC flair smart guy. Sar- sar-, you get stolen. Rick. Also, someone stole the cave. Don't make stickers or stay. Sorry. You got stolen. I don't even know what the spot. Why are you still totally I feel like that's merch wait fans fan. Art right now, if you had on this this the sorry, you were stolen RIC flair March. Georgia did not object all of her products. Of course, she trawled every orphanage in children's home in the state in search of fresh child flesh to sell, but what's her operation was up and running her most common source of children were worthy maternity wards of local Memphis hospitals. She hired a network of spotters who had hang out waiting for poor young women, particularly single mothers to go into labor, dude. It's like ambulance chasers. Like babies chasers. Use look at around for like a lady with a big baby bump who like she doesn't have much money. I'm just big fuck not even having a baby stopped following in the heavy set woman for couple of days waiting until she's like pleased up Dr George Lovejoy who delivered some of those babies later recalled sorry, Lovejoy Lovejoy. You are loving the last names here, the last names are kind of their own podcast. They're amazing ridiculous. Whatever's Lovejoy is a fake character on. This is a real person named Lovejoy. I think that is a pretty common name. I'm running into civil up choice. Are you serious? Yeah. I mean, it is a silly name. But it's a real one. Where are you from Texas? Oh, yeah. Probably more love joys out there. There's a lot of load Ottawa. Joycean Ukraine are California knows where I've not rainy in name. Yeah. Yeah. Ukraina -fornia is there like a Ukrainian neighborhood in town that we there to rain a cultural center, they should call the neighborhood Ukraina -fornia leaving money on the table. Yeah. Okay. Second piece of fan art. Crane in the shape of California. It just says Ukraina -fornia it is for three people. That's what we love doing. Here is jokes that that really appealed to know half a basketball team will will identify with. Okay. Dr George Lovejoy who delivered many of the babies later called quote, Georgia tans workers stood outside the door of the delivery room, waiting the minute. The baby was born. They would take the papers in and have the mother sign them in the baby would disappear now. Many of these mothers were still wasted from anesthesia when Georgia's people force them to sign a were presented as routine papers this extensively medical paperwork was of course, in reality surrender, parental rights. Babies were taken right from their drugged up mommy's and flown to new homes the same day part of Georgia was so successful in. This was the fact that she literally changed American cultures attitude towards single moms see being a single mom has always been difficult, obviously. But for most of American history, there was not a huge stigma attached to it husbands died after all was like, you know, fucking. There was no medicine back then but starting in Memphis, Georgia labored to convince courts in the public that single white women should not be allowed to raise their own babies. This is part of why on the few occasions. She was taken to court over at George nearly always won her cases. No judge was willing to take a baby from a rich or middle class. Two parent household and give it to a single. Poor woman. Damn. Yup. According to the baby, my mom would have for sure had me stolen, a single mom yet that happened up until very recently the seventies in case. According to the baby thief quote by the late nineteen thirties. Single mothers were not only being prevented from bonding with their babies, but often even from seeing them mothers were sometimes blindfolded during labor some social workers urged pregnant women to sign forms allowing doctors to circumcise their child if it turned out to be a boy so that the workers could keep mothers uninformed of even their babies gender by the time adoption became nationally popular in the mid nineteen forties. The reversal was complete for the first time in history. White single mothers were expected to surrender their babies for adoption that relinquishment was endorsed by leaders of such reputable organizations as the child welfare league of America, the American public welfare association, the Salvation Army Catholic charities and most psychiatrists and psychologists led dissenting. Social scientists Clark Vincent to predict a future in which newborns of all white single. Mothers would be seized by the state, but the nineteen fifties ninety percent of whites. Hold on. Let me go back to the fact that they were blindfolded when giving birth. So they couldn't see him. I must have been so terrifying. Yeah. Holy shit. It's already the worst experience your ally drugged up there's pain there. Gonna steal your baby. And then like, they blindfold you. Yeah. That is nuts. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty fucked. The only game of hide and seek you're gonna ever play with your baby who. So much sadder. Would you think about it that way? No. But there's no seek now. Just a game of hide. It's a one time peekaboo situation. Yeah. But the nineteen fifties ninety percent of white women in maternity homes, which is where poor single women tended to give birth surrendered their children for adoption. So damn y'all Georgia also trawled the various orphanages of Tennessee in search of new inventory, one worker a called, quote, I can still hear her steps down the hallway and see her funny, hats, she had big feet and more black lace up shoes. She always went upstairs to see the baby's. There would be masses of them one day, and they'd be gone the next down. So Georgia would take pictures of the best babies, which were usually blonde haired and blue eyed, and then send him off to prospective clients. These kids were the lucky ones, you know, the kids who are genuinely bad situations were often probably helped by Georgia's work, but not always while many of Georgia's kids wound up in the hands of wealthy loving family. She didn't actually do any kind of vetting it all to make sure of that. The only background check was whether or not the new mom and dad had dollars. Exactly. Georgia's kid. Didn't even all end up in families, nineteen twenty nine one of them wound up at the university of Tennessee. As a ward of the home economics department serving God award of school department serving as a flesh and blood textbook for students. The department changed his name from Richard house to Richard practice house. Also, dick house. Why practice how they were like just so you don't forget that your sense, essentially chattel like, yeah, let's fuck and change your name to practice guy. A lot of the stuff that went on. Then did definitely verge on child slavery. It's pretty dark. For years, Georgia Tann was seen as an authority on child welfare. She wasn't essence America's chief social worker. Eleanor Roosevelt Esther for advice on improving conditions for poor children. She was invited to collaborate. I know how to do it. Anyway, to do them all let me steal kill him. She was invited to collaborate on books about adoption and sought out by the likes of the New York Times for her commentary on stories of abuse in children's homes around the country. This was a dark irony because the reality is that Georgia Tann abused children on a scale with viciousness more suited for a concentration camp than an orphanage. Children who were objected by Georgia would spend weeks months or even years in a series of dreadfully crowded, boarding homes. These were often just small apartments two bedroom might be filled with as many as ten children on. At least one instance, six infants were found in single crib babies were fed spoil milk often. Because functional refrigerators were not always in the budget. Tens of children would be crammed into spaces condemned by thorns as fire hazards, Georgia refused to pay for medical treatment for kids with syphilis or other contagious diseases. That would have cut into her. Profit margin. Damn you know, what? Now's a good time for an ad pivot. Roffe is are the everyday slats for life on the go. They're stylish comfortable and go with everything from yoga pants to dresses and skirts. They've quickly become a most loved gotta have them brand. Thanks to their wide range of colors and patterns with new ones launching constantly, and there's zero break in period since Rossi's are crafted using three D knitting techniques and hand assembly there seamless design means right out of the box comfort. Best of all they're made from recycled plastic water bottles. That's right over twenty five million water bottles have been diverted from landfills to make these gorgeous and sustainable shoes. Another major bonus. They're fully machine washable. So your pair will be fresh and ready every laundry day, plus Rossi's, always come with free shipping and free returns and exchanges. There's no risk. And no reason not to try you'll quickly. Discover why BuzzFeed called them there. Forever shoes. Check out all the amazing styles available right now. Rossi's dot com slash iheart, comfort style and sustainability. These are the shoes you've been waiting for head to Roth these dot com. That's our OT H Y S dot com slash iheart today. We're back and know how to how to lead into that ad pet at a graceful way. Yeah. I don't know if you can grossly transition from baby murder into products and then back to baby murder, but we're doing it. And we're doing it because we're going to go right back to harder. Yeah. So we were talking about how she often would refuse to pay for medical treatment for kids with contagious diseases because of course, that shit's expensive and you're running a business here, according to the baby thief, quote, she refused to even acknowledge illness and her children and forbade her boarding mothers from summoning medical help face with desperately sick children. However, some boarding mothers panicked and sent them to the hospital. The trip was often made too late the deaths of most of these babies were presumably recorded and the children buried in the area of Elmwood cemetery used by her adoption agency, but Georgia disposed of the bodies of children whose death. She could conceal in less regular ways. A reporter for the press scimitar past Georgia's home one night in the nineteen forties and saw someone burying something in the backyard a child the reporter believed former in. Investigator. Robert Taylor told me that Georgia had had the local Thompson brother's funeral home cremate. Some of the children getting rid of the evidence Taylor said a grave is proof. Damn. Yeah. Pretty. Charles Carter, a pediatrician who volunteered at the children's home. Entreated many of mistakes inventory told Barbara Raymond that Georgia would even overrule his express medical guidance at times, quote, I had prescribed penicillin and learn later that she ordered her nurses to stop giving it to the baby, but continued to chart it as if they were Georgia Tann, simply would not listen, she would say, I'll take your words under advisement. But she never did. She did what she felt best regardless of what anyone said she felt she knew the babies and what the baby's needed. Yeah. Play death. So many of Georgia's children got sick that one hospital in Memphis, dedicated an entire ward to taking care of them. A Los Angeles hospital had to do the same thing for the river of sick and dying babies Georgia brought into the city to sell to Hollywood types by nineteen thirty to Memphis, Tennessee, had the highest infant death rate of any major American city, mostly Georgia Tann now, we don't know how many babies died and Georgia tans care. We do know that in one particularly brutal winter the winter of nineteen forty five as many as fifty babies died in the children's home alone babies died when they were left out in the sun unattended some died within days of arriving in their adoptive homes because no care had been taken to make sure they were fed or Medicaid in the days and weeks before transit, and at least one case Georgia Tann abducted, a set of premature twins and remove them from the hospital before they were stable both twins died in total. It's estimated that as many as five hundred babies died in Georgia tans care, the real death toll may be even higher perhaps much higher. Yeah. That's kind of what it seems five hundred doesn't seem race seems. Like, she might killed a couple of thousands. Yeah. Definitely. If I've hundred kind of the minimum. Doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't even make fun. And if you're seeing about someone they killed at least five hundred babies. I can't really imagine much worse. Like, the only other people you can say that about are usually like concentration camp guards. Like, yeah. Like, we talked about many dead babies. That's so many dead babies people that orchestrated like specifically genocide. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Georgia Tann in genocide. Commissioners. Its I mean, she's a death all star. Yeah. Definitely an achiever. Jeez. Overachiever people ask a lot. You know, you should cover more women bastards on the show which were doing but Georgia Tann she belongs on the list. She's she's right up there. She's right up there. She's one of the worst people have heard about question is she saying all yeah. Well, no, actually, she had a partner who was in. I think on paper her secretary because being held murder the baby's probably right. Yeah. We don't we not. I mean, not that I know of but probably humbly, right? Yeah. Wouldn't be aware of that. If your girlfriend's like. Yup. Heavy into murderer in the seeps into your relationship in from what little we know about it. It seems like it was pretty abusive relationship. Georgia was definitely the dominant one. Yeah. And it would be a shocker fewer like she was the abused one. Maybe like, oh my God. She's that's what she's taken out on the babies, but clearly something happened to her right or pretty domineering dick like wouldn't let her be a lawyer and stuff. Yeah. But then that doesn't lead to baby murder. I just do like do you think she was abused to have like a weird preoccupation with babies like that? I think she was abused. I think she got addicted to like the sense of setting these babies up with somebody. And I think I think some of it is just like, you know, she came from this period of time where you didn't really give that much of a shit about babies in like the eighteen nineties like, you know, I think people like thinking of themselves as a good person, even when they're terrible things. So she probably was like, I am saving these babies, and she really believed it and she thought the ones that died. Will they would have grown up poor? And that's worse than death. Right. Exactly. Or what does that or or like they were supposed to die? Yeah. I mean, you can say anything to yourself when you're trying to justify some fucked up shit. You really I say that shit when I'm like getting you know, like an extra fucking Taco Bell thing. It's like, you know, it's it's really close to baby murder, basically. Didn't need Taco Bell. Sponsored the show we will stop comparing your products to murdering babies, it's way better. It's Taco Bell better than killing a baby. That's a slogan right there. It's seldom fucking again March man, just coming up with all these merch ideas. And I feel like you should pay me. So thank you. We'll let you know if the Taco Bell people reach out. Yeah. They kind of have to I think they really gonna like this. Unbeatable you add campaign. Yeah. Yeah. Better than murdering a baby. So one of the babies the Georgia Tann murdered was the daughter of alma Sipple in the spring of nineteen forty six MS Sippel, moved to Memphis with her infant daughter in two year old son her boyfriend, Julius Talos was in the military and had just left for Panama. They planned to marry I'ma later recalled, quote, we were so crazy about each other. It didn't matter if we were married or not so six weeks after moving to Memphis alma was visited by a Representative of the children's home society named Georgia Tann Georgia's said, she was looking into allegations of child abuse against one of Almaz neighbors. So it I thought nothing was wrong. At least not with her the next day Georgia Tann returned in her large black limo this time she had questions about the child's father questions alma Sipple could not comfortably answer next. According to the New York Post, quote, the woman looked at Irma who had a runny nose and said, your baby sick isn't. She you should get her checkup. Simple explained that she had no money for a doctor. So the woman. Generously offered to take the. Well to the Memphis General Hospital looking back simple wonders at her own naievety. How I how did I mess up so bad? I guess she knew the dumb ones still she had been worried about her baby's health, and she'd assumed that she would go with them to the hospital. So she had signed a piece of paper when tan had told her it would be impossible for her to go along simple remembers. I had a weird feeling, but I thought well you've got to trust somebody the paper. Yeah. Paper was of course, surrender of parental rights. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Simples may be went along with Georgia tan, and that was the last alma ever saw her when she showed up at the children's ward of the hospital the next day to inquire as to her child status than nurse told her you don't have a baby in there. Those children belong to the children's home society for days alma simple, called the children's home in Georgia Tann, no one answered until weeks later, George picked up and told her that her daughter had died of pneumonia in the same sort of way, you might tell someone a carton of eggs had broken being a human alma said that she wanted to bury her child Georgia told her that would not be possible saying the state had put her daughter away after that almost says. I guess I went crazy. She left the other children in her mother's charge. And went to Memphis to find her baby's grave. She never located it. Because of course, Georgia Tann never bothered to give her baby a grave. Cool. Fun story. A. Joke to live on the set one up now. Well, I guess it's time for another ad pivot. Oh, I mean this baby murdering story was always could it be a rough one to. Two products with Bicester, but not not babies. No, no only thing you should not by his babies people. Yeah. Grownup or small just let's put want to don't buy people. Yeah. I'm not trying to be you know, all controversial naturally anti capitalist here. Maybe don't buy people. Probably a good rule of thumb. Maybe keep that light. Products. Louis v wife dead sitting Nancy dead, Kurt cobaine. Awesome. Did Courtney love insane. Johnny cash. Dick, did I turn abusive in XXX ten Pacione? Amy wine house completely off the rails. Disgrace land is a rock and roll true crime podcast about musicians getting away with murder and behaving very badly. This hosted by me Jake Brennan, I grew up in round rock and roll. In the one thing, I know to be absolutely true. Is that real Rockstars parking? Sane more like feral, narcissistic animals and functioning members of society in this is precisely what makes them so damn entertaining to pop biggie Marvin Gaye James Brown. John Lennon GTI on stones and the Hells Angels running security in a dead kid on the dance floor these stories and more are all waiting for you in disgrace. Like listen to disgrace Santa the iheartradio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. Good products, solid services. Let's get back to talking about horrible thing. No this point. I'll bet you might think something along the lines of Georgia Tann couldn't possibly get any worse. Well, strowman listener, you're dumb for thinking that of course, she can get worse. In addition to stealing thousands of babies killing hundreds of this is where the molestation comes in. Yup. Yeah. Yeah. She molested a bunch of babies one of her victims as a fifty four year old man from Memphis know, babies. Yup. Yeah. It seems like it. This is interesting. I think both genders sometimes people who molest molest really young not much of a difference much. The difference wants them to be probably like helpless. Yeah. I think that says dad bigger part of it. So one of her victims, you know, decades later is fifty four year old man claimed he and his twin brother were molested by Georgia when they were eight he told the daily pantograph, quote, we remember being in a big bed. Strip naked Georgia, tan, and some other people were there reaching for us and kissing and touching us where we shouldn't be touched. Sexual assault and physical assault sort of blended together for many of Georgia's victims, one of them a young girl named Mary Recalde, Georgia beating her with a wooden spoon in a bathroom. She squatted over me gouging me, she seemed like a giant. She was sadistic evil. I thought of her as the devil damn another add up to five years old at the time of the abuse recalled to Barbara Raymond that. Yes, sexually abuse at the hands of Georgia Tann was very true. And it was presented as your favor. She says the abuse occurred in a gorgeous room. I remember the shock of the room so overwhelming and beautiful. I remember being told to come sit in her lap. I keep trying to block it out. But it keeps coming it's caused me. A lot of problems you won't find a whole lot of healthy adults who went through there. Now over the course of this podcast, I've referred to Georgia's children as products in inventories. Several times this was not a joke on my part, Georgia Tan's own lawyer called them products. He wrote to one of her clients in nineteen forty four. It is not often. We have the good luck that we have in your case, namely having the merchandise in hand to stock and deliver to you immediately. Jesus a baby he was talking about on an occasion in which he couldn't fulfill an order. He told another client. This is one business in which we can never tell when we can fill in order. You know, just never to hold on a second until we steal another baby. Yeah. Human babies retreated very much commodities in this industry as the baby thief records, quote, blue eyes were decided advantage as was female gender. Baby girls are more feminine alluring. They are grand little self advisors than they know instinctively how to strut their stuff they stretch out their dimpled arms. Gurgle some secret. Baby joke blow air bubbles from moist. Cupid's bow bow mouths in women strongmen, grow mad become besotted with education and want to kidnap them on the spot. The author contended that males with the wrong haircut. Were at a distinct disadvantage, if a boy is red headed his chance of finding a new mama or Papa is practically zero nobody wants him at all. I mean, we were joking about that yet. That's fucked up. That's perfect up. Brandon a young child abducted by Georgia Tann later, recalled what it was like being abducted for sale, quote, we were herded into the car and brought back to Memphis when we got there. They dropped my two brothers off at another holding place, and they took me to the house on poplar. I remember the parties where they would dress up the children and take them downstairs for meet-and-greet. Some of the children would come back. Some wouldn't cool Virginia Simmons one of the baby. So by Georgia Tann later recalled that she felt like she was ordered like quote out of a Sears Roebuck catalog when she developed scoliosis. Her new mother rejected her saying, I spent a lot of money on you. And you're such a disappointment. If I knew you were going to develop that crooked back. I would never have picked you out. Cool. I'll told Georgia is suspected of of ranging at minimum five thousand adoptions in her career. She built the bones of the modern adoption system that persists nationally and worldwide today in the mid forties. She was diagnosed with uterine cancer, which would kill her in nineteen fifty this coincided with a gradual collapse for adoption empire for one thing. Boss Crump's influence, it started to crumble in this period. Crumbs political nemesis, Gordon Browning had been elected governor in nineteen forty eight. He'd gone after Georgia Tann as a way to attack enemy chrome, crumbled, boss, Crump crumbles. That has to have been a newspaper headline boss Crump crumbles. Yeah. One hundred percent hundred percent. I think it's crazy that she. Okay, obviously crazy that she molested those kids. But that one kid said there are other people in the room eliciting with her. So like she clearly arranged these like year sex parties where like her children could get abused like mass lights like, yeah, that's fucking crazy. And it was also one of the things that's the the the baby makes a good point of pointing this out is that in this period of time at orphanages and stuff an awful lot in p- perhaps most of the employee's in the thirties forties, fifties molested the kids. Like kind of like why you do a job that terrible like that. Because like nobody's for you guys. You're pedophile. This is one hundred percent like a like a lifetime series know, like they did that they did that one about that lady who would Munchausen syndrome. Oh, God, the yeah. Another one Utah. This is very much this like the definitely should be a multi part story because this is so crazy. It's one of those things it should be. But also like, I don't know how many people are going to be able to listen to all of this episode. Yeah. I don't like it's just so dark. Yeah. Like. Woo. Yeah. You would only want to watch that movie. There's like serious come up. Yeah. Yeah. You either in cancer is like kind of a weird ironic. Cancer is ironic situation. But I say that as a breast cancer survivor. My my cancer was not ironic. It was just eight up, but hers that's super ironic. Every now win then cancer gets it, right? Now as Georgia was in the later stages of her cancer governor Browning appointed a special investigator to look into her child, abduction work. The case was announced in September of nineteen fifty less than a month before her death. It was sort of Justice you can expect from politicians late enough to avoid any real conflict where controversy most of the allegations against Georgia had to do with improper allocation of the funds she had made through Dopp takeout children. They only care about the money. They only cared about the money not her mass kidnapping rape or all the dead babies after Tan's sounds like America right after Tan's death Justice, Kelly retired from the judgeship. She was protected from prosecution until her death in nineteen fifty five. Georgia's life has had in lumber of long standing impacts for one thing the concept of adoption was normalized on the national level. The shame around it was gone, which was an objectively good thing. However and other holdover from Georgia tans career is the fact that adoption records were sealed and adopted children were held back from knowing the identities of their birth. Parents in many parts of the United States. The law still works this way. A holdover from the era of Georgia Tann because it made it easier for her to sell in duct animus babies as any work been done in trying to locate all the kids. Yeah. A lot of that work has been done somebody like the kids themselves. There's a lot of people who've tracked on their own history. Barbara Raymond, the author of the baby thief did a lot of that work in like is is done. Very good journalism to try and put it together. It's one of those things it will never have a comprehensive list because there was no, of course, was criminal enterprise. Hid a lot of the things that you wouldn't be able to figure out, but I just feel like what what an crazy thing to grow up. And then find out that you were one of the babies that was abducted, whether you had a nice life with your parents or not it would still flip you out to find something like that out. And I didn't include a lot of the stories that she doesn't the baby thieves about what these people like these base stolen babies like like the trauma they dealt with his adults. But like a lot of them their lives were just fucked because they they were old enough that they remembered being ripped from their mom's arms with five or six minutes. Happened. And they spent the whole their whole lives trying to like find their parents again, it would turn up their mom at diet or whatever. Is it's just it's just terrible. The worst like I said, this might be the most depressing episode of the show we ever do. I have trouble imagining like obviously on recovering from this. Oh, yeah. I have trouble. Imagining a worse tail than the tale of Georgia tan what she did like there's even like, obviously like on an objective lake level of scale stuff. Like a concentration camp is worse in bigger and involved a lot more people, but unlike a level of human evil, there's something about Georgia Tann specifically that so wretched it's it's really hard. Well, I think lock about. Yeah. Murder obviously is terrible. But when you think about like chill like babies murdered who, you know, are the most innocent what we have than it is like a different level. Yeah. And then yeah, when you add the slavery in the molestation into it. And then you think about how many people it broke up. Families didn't exist them. Yeah. The children to broke the moms the dads. Yeah. You talking in their in their siblings. Like, yeah. Talking Matt mass mass generational trauma. The like. That's your legacy. Yeah. Intially tens of thousands of victims. You know, if you if you're about five thousand babies stolen, tens of thousands of victims. It's yeah. And I mean, probably those numbers are low to probably those numbers are very low. Yeah. That's just fest estimates. Yup. And I mean, I feel like there's kind of a weird interesting level of maybe sexism that plays into it where it's like women may be are given more leeway in things like this because they're like well, women are natural caretakers caregivers women are naturally maternal. Women naturally are drawn to children so feel like then when you have like a woman who's like heading and spearheading a campaign and his like, I'm doing this. And I'm helping babies I think people are more likely to believe her or something because of that level of like women are natural. Yeah. You're getting two sides of sexism there. Right. She's able to get away with it. Because of this idea like, you know, she's a woman doing this is what they should be doing. She knows what's best for these kids. But also they're getting taken from single mothers because single mothers who are seen as of raising. Like, it's it's this like double edged sword of sexism. I mean, it hurts everybody. And also when you think about the fact that like who knows what would have happened if she had been allowed to be a lawyer, right? That's just another to just been like fucking proc-. She just would have been terrible on a smaller scale without baby murder. But also like, you just you don't know. And the fact that like she has that abuse thing, and whatever it's a Kounose with her dad did to her now. It's like, yeah. He was he was domineering Domino's. There might have been like a level of chemo listed are fucked her up for the rest of her life, and I feel like yeah. Just like the amount of sexism and not trusting women also and letting people the signing away, parental rights, and then having women have no power to get them back. Like, yeah. It's all a weird. Sexism goes both ways, you know, really weird way in the story. It's pretty. Well, Sylvia, also sorry. But I think it's crazy that no one talks about this. I know right. How is this? The first time I and this is actually I should give some credit twos. I for a couple of different fans have independently suggested that I look into Georgia Tann for some time. That's incredible. I can't believe we didn't. I didn't. I never heard of this lady before I and it's fucking nuts. And she's like a big building block in our society. So not the modern system of adoption. Babies which adoption, I think is objectively one of the best things you can do, you know, having a kid of family, but not this way. Style. Yeah. Not like ordering them out of a catalog being like, oh, I'd like a blonde. Yeah. Yeah. Man. Yes. That's rough. Sorry. Rick flair. Oh my God. Also has Rick layover talked about this. I don't know. Oh my God. Can we please reach out to him? And be like, this is crazy. Ric flair. What do you think? I mean, part of me is like if if he's lucky enough to not remember, it probably wouldn't wanna like push on somebody to like look into that part of their past like, and it wasn't bad like frayed of upsetting. Ric flair. That's a tough thing to have in your background flares wrestler, but he's still a person. I'm not saying he's not a person. But I'm saying like maybe would also bring him peace to talk about if RIC flair wants to come on the show talk about because this is so crazy of -ducted as a baby. Like, yeah, we are loved to talk to you. Yeah. But I'm also on any listeners that have listened to this. They're like this was part of my family or something they should reach out. An insane thing suspect at least one person is going to be like oh shit, my grandma, or my my mom, whatever like. I'm sure like at a certain point when you find that out. You wanna find all the people that this has happened to because it's such a particular. Awful thing that you kind of want to have a sense of belonging to somewhere to talk to somebody about it. That knows what it's like one of the things that occurs to me. Now is that, you know, Georgia Tann, we're looking at her victim cannons around five thousand or so, but like she is the reason why for decades it was the norm to just take babies from single women when they give birth. Really? That's maybe even a couple of leeann victims, that's a whole I don't know how many women too. But it's insane. Like, I didn't know that was just the norm for until pretty recently. Like not when I was like, but when my parents were young adults like. They they might have given birth to me, you know, like, the doctor who delivered me might have delivered babies a few years earlier in handed them straight to an adoption agency, basically like that's fucking wild. That's crazy. Who have been everyone rate. All of this information. Now, you're ready to take on the rest of your day. Positive. I know a lot of people listened to their car on the way home driving to work, and you have a lot of dead. I people in work today. They could about all the babies, Georgia's stolen. We're all sorry about that. Sorry. You know, what podcast? I warned people upfront. You did I did you gave it trigger? Warning that this is the only time I've done that. I mean, I feel like I'm triggered. Yeah. A little bit feel a little sad feel like you should be after this do some after care. Listen to I still don't know what the show is. But the name come town makes me laugh and the combos. I'm just going to make myself come after this this the only way to recover is the better I wanted to go that postmaster Batori glow to envelop me, and to obscure any negativity from this wipe out the horror of Georgia tans existence. Yeah. And I've said that like I'm for sure going to remember her name. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be stuck in everybody's head just like that. No. But we gotta think about Rufus raspberry, Rufus raspberry. That's that's the way with that. Rufus raspberry, boss crumb. Yeah. We got us grow Rufus raspberry think about that. Yeah. Got it does sound like an old TV show. All right. So FIA you wanna plug them plug Ables. They're find me on Twitter and Instagram at the so FIA tweet setup. So f I y and I co host a podcast called private parts, unknown where we talk about love and sexuality around the world. So film, listen to that. See, I'm Robert Evans, probably in. I have a website behind the bastards dot com. You can find us on the twins to Graham at bastards pod. Doing that from now on Soviet calling on the twins degrom. It's the way it's gonna work. We sell shirts to public dot com. For behind the bastards by shirt, by stickers cups, hand-grenades by an it could happen here shirt. If you want people to know that that could happen here. That's a good thing to do. We'll probably have other shirts. Soon. Tweeted us with ideas podcasts. Good times. I love. Let's say ninety percent of you. I feel like I feel like we need that in light of progress. Consolidates by. Hi there. It's me Josh Clark. And if you love the beautiful musical score that point Lobo created for the end of the world with Josh Clark. Then you can rejoice. It's now available as the original soundtrack album sixteen tracks selected and remastered by point Lobo capture. The highs the imagination and the far out -ness of the series, and they all come together to make a really great album on its own. It's like the spirit of the series now in a convenient capsule. You can get the end of the world with Josh Clark original soundtrack album everywhere. You get music online apple music, I tunes iheartradio Spotify. Amazon everywhere. Could check it out today.
Orphan Victims Of A Black-Market Baby Business Share Their Stories
"Defied candidates using an online dashboard get started at indeed dot com slash. NPR podcast this message comes from on point sponsor indeed if you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your short list of legal of what she was doing she just had the mind of a mastermind criminal and she saw opportune Kennedy and there was some degree of of social to some degree what happened is a creature of its time there was some amount of social and began in the nineteen twenties when a woman named George Georgia Tann launched what essentially became a black market baby business in Tennessee right so Georgia Tann is in the mid twenties she is she's already in the social welfare business history this hour on point before and after the Tennessee Children's home society and you can join us is this your story do you nearing she could very publicly say things like well if you take these kids away from the the the cows and the breeders on the river and you put them in the hand landing in Memphis and in Memphis she sort of finds the perfect nest Memphis is already very corrupt underboss crump ends of surround them with beauty and culture and the advantage is that they can become anything okay so tell us that mothers so Lisa Wingate and her co author took the next step in their new book they tell the true stories of children who survived this dark mark in Tennessee but I wonder if we should start by by helping folks along who don't actually know this history can you can you tell us how US she's run out of another state for practices that they don't consider exactly kosher and so she ends up business in Tennessee five thousand children who were sold to wealthy couples often not orphans at all but stolen children from poor families and unwed facebook at on point radio well joining us today from Dallas Texas is Lisa wingate she is co author along with Judy Christie of the the story of five siblings who were stolen from their shanty boat home and thrown into Tennessee orphanage her novel was fiction but it was based on a true story and as the novel became a bestseller many readers discovered it was their story they were the real life victims of a decades long black market baby doc before and after the incredible real life stories of orphans who survived the Tennessee children's home you can find an excerpt of the book at one point thinks she needs to begin to perpetrate this for profit adoption network a boss crump being the mayor of Memphis yes boss current being the Mayor of Memphis US crump has memphis boss crump has the state of Tennessee Georgia Tann liens there gets in with boss crump and that gives her every radio dot Org Lisa wingate welcome to the program Hello Magna it's very good to be joining you today to talk in in more detail who were the families where did some of these children come from she had many different ways of getting children some of them of course really were orphans your these years encompass the depression for little bit about these children and families and what really happened to them and we want to talk to you in detail about that because their stories at the heart of this or a family member have a connection to this dark moment in Tennessee history between the mid nineteen twenty to nineteen fifty join us anytime on twitter okay for profit adoption though was that unusual at the time certainly it was it was not all the orders and where the rest of them are coming from is the dark side of this history and Georgia Tann develops all sorts of methods forgetting Ma'am she has spotters all over town in in welfare clinics in hospitals in orphanages among social instance you know when a lot of people just could not raise their children financially or otherwise so some of them are orphans but there are not enough orphans oh workers so there were all different kinds of ways she would get children they would tell new mothers in the hospital your baby died they would have welfare only to take the baby to the clinic and young mothers would let that happen and then be told the baby died and treatment some of the children were just rounded up whole groups workers go door to door in tenement buildings and whatnot and say you know I can I can get your baby needs medical treatment I can get the treatment free but siblings disappeared as they were walking down dusty dirt roads going home from school and Georgia tens limousine rolled by and they got in this about like she would just Georgia Tann just drive up in a black limo and opened the door and take children off the street she would take children off the street off front porches she would canvass poor parts of town Shat Shani Villes on the along the river I mean it's horrifying to hear all of those circumstances but the one that sort of almost defies the imagination is that last one that you're talking leave children out to sit in the yard or put a crib out on the porch children played outside it wasn't that was before the a day in time when you don't talk to strangers and you don't get in a car with anybody and so it was very easy for her to roller and she just you know if she saw availability she took advantage of it and it was a different time and there's no air conditioning people used did you hear you say that I've read about it but he you say that it just I mean it's out and out kidnapping is what she was doing to some of these children what would happen grandmotherly looking woman and in the children would go a I mean it's it it's jaw-dropping assassins who are getting paid some certain amount of money per week per child so there's no real incentive for them to actually to them then so she had a network of she did have a main orphanage which was babies and children on Poplar Avenue in a turn of the injury mentioned that had been donated so that's the main orphanage then you have all over Memphis boarding homes who are just owned they're just owned by private sitter up many children had never been in a car during those years and so it was very easy for her to roll up and say hey would you like a ride in my nice car and she's this with them so the conditions in these various boarding homes were notoriously awful the people who worked in those and in the main take care of the children because the less they spend on the children the more they profit and there's no there's no regulation of these there's no inspection there's no supervision uh on Oprah Winfrey's show two brothers who had been taken from their families and it in Georgia Tans Orphanage they spoke to Oprah this is James and Thomas White and they described the conditions and the abuse heart hearing the story over and over again Lisa I I WANNA play a little bit of tape here and I just wanted to give listeners a warning in it for the money so these these places were awful yeah well they were truly off we hear me struggling here because it just breaks me orphanage who do you get to work for a system like this people who are have substance abuse problems people who are pedophile 's people who are some of the details that you're going to hear in this piece of tape are graphic and may not be appropriate for everybody but Back in nineteen ninety one in dozens of children died within short periods of time you said the Georgia land on the floor with blankets I remember Kids with no clothes on I remember the screaming and hollering and I remember them telling us yes the official Tennessee Children's home society plot which was only identified a few years ago and the five to six hundred are estimated to have died in the care of the Tennessee Children's Home Society because it was it was a for profit industry so if persuade in one thousand nine hundred ninety one speaking to Oprah Winfrey Lisa we should also make it clear that children died epidemics swept through the main orphanage doctors were telling her to quit bringing in more babies she wouldn't listen and children her side a judge at least one judge as well so obviously there was knowledge amongst powerful people in the city that this was going on this message comes from on point sponsor indeed when it comes to hiring you don't have time to waste you need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates a child was sickly or had a birth defect or a health problem or was just to fussier not cute enough not marketable and other double real life stories of orphans who survived the Tennessee Children's Home Society will hear a lot more of this story when we come back this is on point of children now adults and their families who survived this horrific period in Memphis Tennessee history from the mid twenties to nineteen fifty accelerate your results with sponsored jobs new users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast terms conditions and mark there for the children buried there and all the other children who just vanished but there are nineteen babies buried in the plot but some the mother who came from a poor family that if she signed a piece of paper her mother wouldn't be responsible for Cheryl's medical bills and then their families and sold off to other wealthier families we want to hear from you if this happens to be your story as well now Lisa we actually spent where a black market baby adoption scheme was going on with the full knowledge of powerful politicians in Memphis where children were just taken from words she had people to send the child to the baby too and that person's job was to not bring the baby back use they suffered in this orphanage and again a note to folks the details you to hear our graphic I remember one of the victims of this black market adoption scheme in the first half of the Twentieth Century in Memphis Tennessee talk to both of those astronauts in space we have you loud and clear. NPR listen for that and subscribed a short way from NPR DOC just yesterday with a woman named Cheryl Marts She was adopted by a family through Georgia Tans Black Mark Lisa for tells you you met Sheryl or she came up to you in a book reading is that right she did I had gone down to Baton Rouge real life stories of orphans who survived the Tennessee Children's Home Society LISA HAS CO authored this book with Judy Christie and they they tell the story wheel the baby out in the sun or or whatever and in unleaded expire and so in she didn't there were times when kit scheme in the nineteen forties a New Jersey couple adopted Cheryl and when we spoke to Cheryl she said that Georgia Tann had explained to her here's what Cheryl said happened when she did that she gave the rights to me away this is how she explained it to me ten sorry Lisa you said that Georgia Tann had the Mayor of Memphis and when she went to leave she she had never laid eyes on me she was not allowed to take me and they had already taken me quality standards apply Maddie's Fi here host of a new daily science podcast from NPR cold shortwave this week the first all female space walk this is on point magnetising Bardy we're talking this hour with Lisa wingate she is co author of the new book before and after the incredible the library which where the book was their community read the last spring and as I was going in a woman kind of touched me and they told me to they sold me to a couple from New Jersey the Cheryl Marts metairie elmwood cemetery historic cemetery there in Memphis when they found out what that unmarked corner plot was They raised money to put they've they're happy and sad you know happy because these are these vibrant amazing people who went shut up now these not young men or young lady was L. Dot they was grown grown people that would actually abusing the children difficult story we WanNa do it the justice deserve so sleazy stand by here for just a second we are talking to Lisa wingate she's Co author of the new book before and after the increased and as I went in and she said I'm one of the Georgia Tann children and that has has gotten to be sort of a thing which is what led to this before and after this book that's out so how this ends is the politics finally change in Tennessee in the late forties Governor Browning is in crump is one of the things he appoints an investigator for he appoints Robert Taylor to investigate the Tennessee children's Home Society Taylor begins to dig in of course fast with indeed post a job in minutes set up screener questions then zero in on qualified candidates and when you need to hire fast and it was this between the event and the signing and everything on longtime so she was not able to stay until we could talk after and they are allowed to persist powerful people look the other way how did this end how did this come to an end in Tennessee went on for decades what stopped it yes they were touch us in hug and kiss us and they put us in the in ways that we're not good that's right let's James Friends into a lot of resistance because by now powerful people are not only involved power people have these children and have wrote Browning is kind of the opposite thing of crump's Oh browning goes to work wanting to dismantle the crump machine that has run the state for decades and dollars doing this on how she did it that she defrauded the state of the money et Cetera. They don't focus a lot now and I said to her as I was walking down the aisle I said wh- i WanNa hear your story either let's talk after or email me and so there's a lot of clamoring at the time Georgia Tann is at home dying from uterine cancer she dies had you know sometimes for decades and so there's a lot of resistance but Taylor goes through his process and digs into it and in September nineteen fifty but as you heard I had a difficult time getting the word is again it just horrible things happen that's absolutely true mostly the Browning report which you can get online and read focuses on the money end of things on that she made what today would be about ten million children who died not really No I you know I don't know how public Governor Browning delivers in a press conference what is called the Taylor the Browning report and Taylor's report and basically they get you will they be able to get their children back so there's a clamoring on both sides of this issue when this breaks and of course it's a big scandalous store and it was a couple of months before she sent me her story and and like all of the stories they're all unique there we've got you know what I'm going to just take a quick break here because I don't want to ask you a question then to have to cut you off in the middle of it because this is a very see this and went on and made lives for themselves and had families and you know in sad because what happened to them early in life is so wrong right well in a couple of minutes doc that knowledge was other than among people who had been close to it there was a a volunteer pediatrician at one time who was flies during this time period and so a little bit of a stink is raised there's an inquiry the PD the Georgia Tann goes before the at home in her own bed within three days of the press conference never knowing that she has been outed and what about was there an uproar about the wchs because the families who have these children of course they're in an uproar they're terrified will they lose their children the families who've lost children will on the you know whether children were still and there's a little bit of that in the report but the governor's press conferences focuses more on the money end of it going to hear from a family member of another one of these children who were who were taken from their original family but Lisa what I wanted to ask you before the break the show you how powerful she was the doctor is there with his list of babies who have disappeared the you know that he has cared for and he has told her the whole time the D. WHO's calling from Memphis Tennessee d you're on the air hi born bred raised in Memphis and the issue is the money the state didn't get not right what happened to these children yes the the there's a huge uproar when the spray because there are Hollywood celebrities Joan Crawford June allyson Dick Pal Smiley burnette their famous people have these children by now the the governing board and says you know no no only two babies have died in this three months and the doctor is there just this must present we'd love to be your Christmas present or Johnny wants a daddy to play ball with he's yours for the asking you know so there were a lot of people who looked cheering in the main orphanage and at the time that an epidemic went through and children were literally dropping babies and toddlers just dropping like it's at least forty five here are the pierce that you know here's my list and he's not even listened to that's the end of that that shows you the power she to be protected in her business it was she might a joke how much she used to pay people off the corruption and corruption in Memphis and she would tell me about Oh yes it's real corrupts used to complain about the money that okay that she would have to give people and maybe some new there were other things going on and just look the other way certainly a lot of people knew what Georgia Tann was doing talking more broadly about corruption in Memphis how many people do we know knew about what was happening regarding these children well it would've taken you mean was was it an open secret I mean how many people knew if if decent her mother was talking to her grandmother stop you gotta quit bringing in more babies you can't bring in more children as disease here she won't listen and so he's there with his list and he says to them no it's and she lovely lady but she said it was really she she made a joke and they'd Louisiana Look Amateur try we my grandmother years ago discussing this but I didn't honestly want to believe it but I'm GonNa go by the book a big box of Kleenex and a fairly extensive network for her to perpetrate this it and it wasn't done I mean a lot of people I think just choose to look the other way and oh grandma passed but she lived in downtown Memphis and rented a lot of property and she was very she owned restaurants and things a lovely lady and she said that she's the cockpit we had well in just a second we're going to hear from a family member of one of these children but of wanted just briefly go to the phones let's go NPR and WBZ Boston megaton already and this is on point Lisa wingate's two thousand seventeen novel before we were yours tells forward to seeing the cute babies like those ads for puppies they're trying to get somebody to adopt them from the shelter assume the best or or some combination of those things these kids were advertised in the newspaper there were weekly pictures of cute babies WanNa perfect one was in just think now God bless her for how she held on and what she went through and God bless her children and I'm so embarrassed about I mean you know people a Lotta people look forward to to seeing the ads and and you know and and maybe they just assumed the best that these were orphans who needed homes could mess up a room and read it and just cry and feel the shame of this happened you grandmother talk about she did no but it was because she had businesses and restaurants and things and she employed a lot of very different people the city and how they could have let it happen I no wonder they wanted to hide it. Well d thank you for your call and Lisa let me just briefly ask you new what she was about and either participated in it or just abstained from trying to do anything about it but right even when at times powerful people did there were judges who protested that that that multiple multiple multiple that yeah he's all our lives but didn't really know exactly what had happened until later on when we when before we were yours came out and we read that book and then started doing more research into what really did happen going in the limousine she told stories of of taking care of the babies in the orphanage and changing diapers feeding them Co author of the new book before and after the incredible real life stories of orphans who survived the Tennessee Children's home society and then being taken by train to Philadelphia to meet her new Mommy and daddy so we really heard the story to her and her siblings so can you tell us more about what happened her so my mother was one of seven siblings she lived with her Mommy folks so tell us how old were you first of all when you first found out what had happened to your mother five thousand orphans that were sold essentially on a black market adoption business in Memphis in the nineteen twenties about being taken from her parents separated from her siblings being taken to the orphanage we heard stories of her daddy in a little shack along the Mississippi River they were very poor and my mother was eight years old so they you know that's one of the ways someone decides to try to regulate her she goes to the legislature and lobbies Baiba her siblings in nineteen forty two Norma sue and her twin sister were then adopted by a couple in Philadelphia Peggy welcomed the regulation of boarding homes for children is passed with the exception for any boarding home that is hired by Georgia Tann my siblings and I heard stories from my mother all all our lives really from the time we were very young she used to talk Russian there were doctors who protested like the one you know we talked about a little bit earlier nothing happened if there was a time nineteen fifty now Lisa if you can hang on here for just a second we want to hear from a family member of one of these survivors tennissee children's home society that the kind of power she wielded in Memphis well we are talking this hour with Lisa wind gauge she's to the orphanage there they were separated from all their siblings and they were adopted out across the country one point thank you magna happy to be here and thank you I have to say that it makes me very sad hearing these stories all over again they were outside playing six of them and the limousine pulled up and somehow lured them into the car and and took them mm-hmm and it's not regulated there was a time when they tried to regulate boarding homes same thing happened she goes to the legislature she she lobbies and I want to say thank you for your patience I know you've been waiting for a while but I wanted to sort of really kind of slowly and carefully go through this story to be sure that we laid it all out and Lisa and her co-authored Judy Christie tell the story of what happened to many of the children out of the fire mother and her twin sister were taken to Philadelphia and adopted to a couple a very nice couple I'm when they tried to regulate out of state adoptions because that's where she made a lot of her money a lot of these kids were shipped to New York California other places and at the time when a limousine pulled up as least it was talking about earlier the children would play outside in Philadelphia and as soon as they got off the train they were told where your new mommy and daddy my mother being told no you're six years old and now you have a new mommy and daddy so my mother George Tan told their adoptive parents that they were six years old so just imagine being eight years old and then be never never got over the trauma of being taken from her parents of being separated from her siblings I know you're not I have a mommy and daddy my mother and her twin were eight years old at the time and they Sir someone you know very well so joining us now from Philadelphia is Peggy Koenig Georgia Tann kidnapped Peggy's mother norma sue and she never forgot thumb she always longed for her biological family she never accepted the fact that she was now a part of an mother family she lived a very sad life even though she had went on to her in the past decade saw a lot of changes in the way music is made life stories of orphans who survived the Tennessee Children's home society we'll be back this is on point the five children of her own she was a very unhappy person she could never get over the trauma of being taken from her parents and thrown into another situation which is not her choice at all shared an experienced social media blew up genres blurred together and beyond say dominated nearly everything I'm Robyn Hilton Join NPR music as we look back at the twin Bharti were talking this hour with Lisa wingate she's Co author of the new book before and after the incredible real life stories of orphans who survived the ten GEICO Netzer hang on here for just a moment and Lisa wingate ask you to stand by as well we have to take a quick break we are talking about the incredible my mother was very unstable and unhappy and she basically started having AC- children's Home Society Peggy Koenig are also joins us she's with us from Philadelphia her mother Norma Sue was one of the five thousand children who were put up for adoption on a black market adoption scheme in Memphis Tennessee between nineteen twenty three me tints its defining trends and moments listen to new episodes twice a week on all songs considered from NPR. This is on point I'm meg nature children at the age of fifteen and she had five children by the time she was twenty two and then a few years whenever trauma happens to someone right especially when they're young it doesn't just go away right there's a ripple effect through the generations years later got divorced from my father my mother really couldn't cope couldn't take care of her children we were always afraid of what was going to happen next we didn't really get between the mid one thousand nine hundred thousand nine hundred fifty and Peggy's here to tell us her mother's story Peggy I wonder and and she also drank a lot to cover up her unhappiness and so we were afraid of what what was going to happen next to us I we we moved around a lot the the love and the protection that children should get from their parents my mother was very impulsive our lives which was very scary and we didn't know when we were going home and when we finally love and attention from our mother that she just wasn't capable of providing we did go home it was there was a lot of chaos in our in our household growing up and we were always seeking Lisa wingate when you met Peggy and got to know her story and and her mother's story I mean that this isn't something that ends with the children those five thousand children this is something that travels through the generations in take care of us she then put us into an orphanage and we were in an orphanage for Mossy about a year and a half of two years later so you have families on both sides of this who've had this lasting generational effect Peggy you've taken it upon yourself do her siblings and her parents and since then my sisters and I have met adopted out across the country a few of them went to California one of them grew up in Hopewell New Jersey and I beginning started a search for my mother's biological family going on ancestry so what effect did what happened to your mother have on on you when you're on your siblings on the rest of the family so because many of our our first cousins which is very exciting we have found out what happened to all of her siblings five of which were and and she was not adopted out but she actually ran away from the orphanage when she was thirteen years old and uh I went to twelve different schools while I was growing up my mother when she got divorced and couldn't what did you learn what does it tell us well I think what what we learned from Peggy and her sisters and and the people of the next year ration- and the next generation even in cases where sometimes some of the adoptees are more kind of blase about it and and and then of course my mother and her twin sister in Philadelphia I just recently found a cousin living in California who aw so I was really happy to find out that that his mom vida survived the orphanage doing my DNA Going on facebook online wherever I could to find out what happened uh the next generation and the next and also the other side of this story is you have thousands of families out there who have these after WE WENT DOWN TO MEMPHIS June a year ago for gathering of adoptees and their families honoration it is a legacy that which I didn't really realize when I worked on the book until I started meeting next generation to generation down the line severed limbs in their family these birth families who have these shadow children who maybe were never found or maybe again were reunited with was the son of the oldest daughter Vida who was eleven years old when they were taken from their parents and ran away to Philadelphia ironically not knowing that her sisters were living in Philadelphia but she she survived the orphanage which was a which was really amazing because the fate of and it's really exciting to to meet my mother's siblings children are cousins the parents were looking for them to very glad that you mentioned that I'm going to just ask you to hang on here for a second because I want to go back to our phones devereaux is calling from Jekyll it didn't affect me I had a good adoption or whatever but you talk to the next generation and then in the next and they'll say oh that the adoption Jekyll island Georgia Devereaux you're on the air hello thank you for calling go ahead Devereaux oh eleven twelve thirteen year old girls that were taken to the orphanage in not adopted out was not good at that time a lot of times they were met second cousins and other family members who have told us that they never stopped searching ver- of her wicked regime of stealing babies my my birth mother found herself alone and what happened the way it was done it has informed every decision my parent or grandparent ever made and so it travels down through the into signing surrender papers so telling the telling her that Georgia Tann operation would because we have been focusing on the children but of course there's a there's a family behind with each of these children that
After the NBA Strike
"The following podcast contains explicit language, hide your children. Hi I'm Josh Levin Slates National Editor. This is hang up and listen for the week of August thirty first, two, thousand and twenty. This week show, we're going to discuss the fallout from the wildcat strike. Last week can pro basketball and the entire sports world also talk about the death of John Thompson, the legendary Georgetown Basketball Coach who turned that program into an unapologetically black powerhouse and finally athletics. Lindsay Jones will be here to assess what should be done about the Washington football team. After yet another report about the franchise's culture of sexual harassment. This one implicating owner Dan Snyder, I'm the author of the Queen host of slow-burn season four. I'm here in Washington DC Stephan fats is off this week but joining me as always from Beautiful Palo Alto slate staff writer, the host of slow-burn three. Joel Anderson what's up beautiful and smokey? Palo. Alto by the way, how are you doing with the smoke? Close. Our windows most days and it's dangerous to go outside and do physical activity but other than that. It's fine. Well. Thank you for telling us the truth and not. sugarcoat it everything's great. Beautiful Philly in this week, one of our favorite guests, New Yorker staff writer theater critic. Vincent Cunningham thanks for being here. Benson. Hey how's the air quality for you? Slightly better less than wildfire grade but you know I'm doing alright I went on a jog today that did not hurt Lou. Oh, we'll see I mean that's paradise as far as. We all know somebody from Boston. You know that certain someone who were in New England Jersey to Thanksgiving dinner, and they probably speak their mind loudly but even when they're double parking or picking a fight with the New York, Fan are Boston friends always have our backs? They're the kind of people you WanNa, share a beer with especially when it's their hometown brew a Sam Adams because there's nothing better than a crisp refreshing Boston lager. So grab your favorite drinking buddy and crack open a Sam Adams beer that brings together new Englanders and non doing lenders alike to stay away when they're watching sports the Boston. Beer company Boston Massachusetts Savor the flavor responsibly. As recently as five days ago, it seemed as the NBA was done for twenty twenty. The Milwaukee Bucks left the court minutes before game five of their first round playoff series against the Orlando Magic triggering league-wide Strike and the twenty four hours after the bucks is walk off the NBA much of the sports world came to a stop in reports emerged the Lakers and the clippers to the league's three title favorites along with Milwaukee we're ready to leave the bubble for good as you know that didn't happen President Obama called at the behest. Of Lebron James, reportedly advised the players to leverage their platform to get some guarantees from the owners before returning to the floor, and now they have returned with the owners promising among other things that the work with local officials to turned their arenas into voting locations for the November, Election Vinson you wrote Wednesday and the New Yorker that players seem to recognize that the most powerful thing they could do was not to work and that the most astounding use of their platform to step off of it. So now that the strike is over. How did it feel to see them step back on their platforms this weekend you know it was a strange kind of mixed things for me. I mean first of all as I wrote in in that piece I dislike watching basketball and the party that likes watching basketball has no ethics right? There's no politics in that part of my life. So I was watching Jamal Murray last night and just grateful that I could do that. Right. So there's always that Then there's the part of me that was raised when my mom's favorite things. When I would talk about celebrities and what they did was don't count somebody else's money. So there's a part of me. Also that says, you know day decided they wanted to come back and I can't tell somebody else to do with what to do with their their money, their prestige there quote unquote platform, which we word that's been banded about a lot recently. So there's that but then yeah, there is a part of me. That is slightly disappointed and intrigued by the way things seemed to play out I just I'm interested in what the way this sort of was very quickly resolved with a lot of promises that don't seem to have hard benchmarks and things up front. I'm just I'm interested in it but despite all of those feelings I think the objective reality is that the NBA players showed us something. Amazing Right. They showed us what their power was by the way you know one Kyrie Irving Julio Make Fun of a lot said, you know before they went into the bubble that actually the players don't need the owners we play our own lex pointing to some of the things that became apparent. You know. So just by showing that and by bringing certain distinctions to the four, you know the difference between these rich owners. And the communities in which they do their business, all these kinds of interesting issues, intentions of class and race just by showing some of those things that was an immensely powerful thing. But they also showed us I think some of the difficulties whether it's how their union works and who's really in charge of the players. When we say the players who who is that? Is it just Lebron Chris Paul is it a more democratic organism than that So some of those impediments were also shown as well. It was it was fascinating so they could have just come. Back. After missing that couple of days of games and have made their point and said like you know we stopped because we didn't feel like it was right to play and we showed our power and now you you paid attention to us then and you'll be paying attention to us now and I think would have been enough and a lot of ways. But instead, they chose a slightly different approach which was to say we came back because we got this particular set of things from ownership like we got this package and was the results of our leaving and. So win, that is the declaration that's made. Then you look at the package of things in your kind of inclined to think. All right. Well, what did they get enough and maybe that's maybe that's the wrong approach but I feel like that's kind of what they've left us with and when you look at the collection of things, it's a creation of social justice coalition among players, coaches, and front offices what you mentioned in the intro jal about transforming arenas zone by teams and appalling places, and then also just an increased number of public service announcements during playoff games. Like look I'm not I certainly don't mean to diminish. Any of that, all that stuff is important. But when you look at it compared to the possibilities that seemed ripe when the strike was announced, you know. Disappointment that the right word just doesn't seem like a huge transformation. All thing that's happened yet cannot cannot be honest So all of this combined with watching Jamal Murray good emotional after the post game. Post game interview last night made me uncomfortable and Does. Some of that is maybe because he was so emotional that he couldn't fully articulate himself in the moment and Mary was wearing the Briana Taylor George Floyd shes yeah, exactly. Yeah. He had images George Floyd and. Taylor she was exactly and I'm just. A couple things one, I'm just wary of black people repeatedly minding their pain in turmoil to make the case for their own humanity and like whether they deserve equal protection under the law like this is something about that that I've seen these interviews that are similar to that Doc rivers. A couple of nights before doing the same thing, and it just really made me a comfortable. But the other thing is that I can't even think in terms of this as disappointment or success or whatever. Because it's such a tremendous indictment of our society that were burdening NBA players with being moral authorities on this issue and that we're asking the do things that we would never ask other people to do like this is this is not a world of they're making and yet people are asking the asking them to be held accountable for solving its problems Republican congressman don't the questions about the stuff that jailbreak does in Jaylen? Brown I guess it was on satiety. After his playoff game and they asked him what he thought about the concessions. So to speak that the players had gotten from the League owners and League officials and he said this promises are may year after year we we've we've heard a lot of these terms and these words before we heard him in twenty fourteen reform and we start hearing them. Now you know a lot of these reshaped the same ideas and nothing is actually taking place and. He's right but that's not something that confined to the NBA. That is that is a societal problem like that is something that you hear A. Complain about electoral politics every year especially this year and the idea that you know the NBA is supposed to hold people accountable in ways that the electorate hasn't before just really makes me uncomfortable into the same silly to me but maybe maybe I'm diminishing their so called platform, right? Yeah. There these people that entertain us and it does seem strange for them to be tasked with leading the way especially when it comes to labor itself right there is. There's something that's always a contradiction when we watch sports, right is that like I mean as MBA fans we. All know we've been through lockout-shortened seasons, right? Labor has been at the forefront of this in one of the things I read really interestingly than the nation's Dave's Aaron wrote a thing about how this was a moment for the rest of the Labor movement to finally join this in a kind of unified and sort of in unison join with these players in and make labor itself as a force visible in this movement for social justice that's been going on for the past few weeks. So I don't know the structure of our society means that maybe it? Is the the players who have to galvanize. You know move other people towards this next phase of what this movement can be i. mean this morning, it was reported that the New York City teachers are preparing to strike over Kovic I. think that this in some ways could be a harbinger of labor being a more prominent voice and all this but also the interesting thing with Jaylen Brown. The weird thing about placing this sort of political meaning onto the players is that the players themselves just like you know if you want to continue the of them being a. Microcosm of the wider society players themselves on all agree on what progress means when you read closely a lot of these reports that have come out Chris Hands Yahu report among them the sort of tick tock of the the two days of the strike. It seems clear to me that there's at least and it's it's more than this but there is at least a very clear generational shift difference a generational difference among the players, right? Like it seems that the younger people Jalen Brown noted, and plus one reader among them and may be the leader of them. Has a more confrontational idea of what the players stance vis-a-vis the management and the owners should be. You know I think Lebron is maybe Lebron generation as maybe this sort of still kind of post Jordan in their idea that the players and the ownership are really in what amounts to a partnership you know and they are working together to propagate what you know the time. Mark Stein. Calls Hashtag this league you know we're all in it together and we're all kind of pushing this product forward and growing the game as they often say right and in ways that are you know sometimes good sometimes strange you know and the younger players because because they are post. Lebron and have, I, think a deeper sense of their own power these younger guys I think they kind of They see they're questioning this and so. It becomes easy because the players are largely black and largely young in the larger sense. Right? We're talking we're talking about a bunch of people who are under forty they're all young but within this model, this big, you know mostly black mostly young mass. There are other interesting things happening and therefore it's a problem for us to project our political wishes onto these four hundred and fifty guys it's not realistic. So so Brown said anything in. That same media availability that because of the reporting leaks that came out of that players only meeting that there's too much of a tendency to emphasize the differences between players and not enough of a focused on the unity between the now that sounds like something that you would say if you want to yourself to emphasize the unity between the players and not the differences and so not being in that room, I think it's hard to know but. I read the stuff the same way that you did Benson and just focusing in on what seems like a generational divide that is you can find parallels throughout our society. I mean, it's it seems like no coincidence that Jaylen Brown was one of the most visible players at protests for the bubble that like he was out there out front leading on the street before being forced into this environment where the only outlet that he has for activism is like talking to fans on social media. are talking to reporters on zoom. It's just like so constrained, and so you know separate from the rest of the world that no his peers are living in but then I also think about a guy like, George Hill who by all accounts was the one who started this whole movement by I don't think he necessarily was intending to do it but he said before the Bucks Magic Game I'm not gonNA play and then Sterling Brown heard Sterling Brown who is a victim of police brutality? His teammates said all right. I'm not GonNa play either and then Jaanus. Ultimately decides I'm not GonNa play and then when you honest decides it All team doesn't play a bookcase show. Reading, we are no longer plan when the whole team doesn't play. The whole league doesn't play but the fact that it was George Hill, a guy that we all know because he's been in the League for a long time he's not quite a journeyman but he who is not know star in the league the fact that I don't necessarily know what it signifies, but he's not Lebron James. He's not even Jalen Brown like he doesn't fit kind of neatly. into. That dichotomy and yet he was the one who started this he's the one who felt like he. He needed to do what he needed to do, and he had a voice in a ultimately got amplified when we recorded the so-called emergency podcast at the time like we sort of hinted at the idea. There, was hinting at the idea that this wasn't necessarily an organized labor strike right that it happened organically that a couple of players. I don't WanNa play and then everybody had to follow line in a show of solidarity which does say something about the relationship that the players have amongst themselves right that they at least have enough cohesiveness among themselves despite generational class differences whatever else they had enough solidarity to do that. But because it happened. So organically in that way and it was a response to what was a very. Emotional event and Kenosha the night before a with Rittenhouse kid you know went into went into. Kenosha. And shot a couple of protesters. So it was a very tense time and you can totally understand how the players may responded to that and been like what the hell are we doing here but I think we we've talked about, labor, I mean the reality is if the players had walked away there, we're going to be some severe financial implications right and that's sort of the the piece of this that we can't avoid talking about is that if they decided well, we want to stop playing to make a point. They would have been much much weaker bargaining position with their owners and the League officials or whatever. So they had to come back and some ways and I think that that seemed have been through line and all the cases to be planning you know Chris Paul and Look Lebron James reportedly said, Hey, look we've got to come back and we've got a play and not everybody was on the same page they fell in line that first day. But after that like you could see up. If, we don't do this man like, do we really want to do this and so even people that extensively have a lot of. Power influence or they work in a Labor situation where you think they have more power than they actually do like you. You can see that being a worker I mean it's very vulnerable. You know what I mean like all of us at some point had to show up and go to work if we can, and like it looked like that's kind of what happened here can we do a little counterfactual history here? So Lebron brings an Obama. And I feel like Obama advise them to do what you think. Obama would advise them to do go get back and play like find kind of way to move forward here and partner as you mentioned and get some concessions but get back in your platform like what what, if instead, the the call the politician would have been to a see or? or it's just like so like Lebron Chris Paul to like bring an Obama it's like. Is there like a version of this that like what have played lab at just funny to think about what might have happened? Yeah. Not to extend the counterfactual game too much but I mean you can think of. Again, because of the nature of the NBA and because of what we know what so many of us have spent lots of time complaining about in terms of the owners, he can imagine something that you know brought attention to the fact that the owners get money public funds to build stadiums right and what if someone did quick math on current ownership groups how much money and public funds have you gotten? to build your arenas and is there a some that is either equal to that or some serious percentage of that that you could then reinvest in certain ways are all of the vendors and subcontractors that work with these ownership groups provide healthcare in a living wage to all their workers preposterously, the owners get fifty percent of all the basketball related income that comes into the league. What if there was a percent of that had to go toward any number of things? What if this was a leagues? You know there's I am like getting myself there are. I mean we often when we talk about urban incomplete urban with black, that is a total inflation that means nothing in the NBA actually all teams are in areas that are affected by gun violence right like. Minnesota where George Floyd was just killed the obviously Milwaukee is forty miles from Kenosha. You could go on and on you could you know? What if that the players asked the the the owners to be anti gun right? What if this was a way to put forward, very serious urban issues, right? I think that's you know to your point. A different person might have given them some more ideas of what to ask for an how ardently to ask for. What they could have done to they could've asked the WNBA I mean the WPA already has a social in Racial Justice Coalition for instance, right? Like that's something they already had that the. Built up to in the WNBA, clearly has a very different relationship with its ownership group that the NBA does right just looking at the example of the Atlanta dream and and how they handle in one of their co owners right So, they could have done that as well. But yeah, I think that Lebron Chris Paul they see themselves not maybe not peers of Obama but they see themselves as They've they've roughly got some of the same interests and so of course, that's the person they call out to right? Yeah. But I do want to just say I don't want to overlook the idea that turning the arenas devoting centers like that's not an insignificant concession. It's a big deal and that's something that probably would not have happened. If they hit not push for you mentioned the Wnba Joel and a big moment for the players, not just on the dream. But throughout the entire league was wearing the shirts that said vote warnock for Kelly lofter's upon and the upcoming Senate race, it was very explicitly putting themselves in the middle of this election and one thing that NBA players having done. So. Far I've seen whether it's through Lebron with more than a vote initiative or anyone else is to say vote Biden or we need to get trump out of office is that surprising? I mean Lebron's called trump you bomb on social media it's not like that would be breaking the seal on anything, but it's just like everything else about this is so explicit about this movement and to leave that is kind of implicit like. Go to the polls like wink wink does it seem surprising to you or is just smart? I don't know I mean. If. You're you're scintillating conversation with Ethan Sherwood. Strauss's any indication. Some people might have thought that that would be some version of suicide philly that's beyond the Pale for the NBA too much. Put too much welcome too much. Whatever I do think that in the NBA as opposed to the WNBA there does even though they have this sort of progressive. Multicultural reputation. There is some vestige of not conservatism, but there is a sort of primer to the league as a as a whole as a parent as opposed to the players. They're gonNA let Lebron say. I'll say let quotes there they don't. They're not going to get mad at him if he says you bomber whatever. But Adam silver is going to try to tell you why you know in his heart is voting for Biden but without ever saying that right as opposed to you know they're gonNa let Popovich incur say that but part of this sort of Jujitsu that they've managed as we can create space for people to individual actors within our league to do that but we're gonNA maybe that's the water's edge for us. So I'm actually not surprise better. 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Now through September fourteenth with the Code Comfort that offer expires nine fourteen, twenty, twenty at eleven fifty, nine pm Pacific Time and excludes the element mattress bundles in sale items limit one offer per customer and order please see Casper Dot com slash terms for additional terms and conditions. John Thompson Junior was a very large man six, ten, the tallest coach. I can remember ever seeing on the sideline I'm became a basketball fan in the eighties but Thomson was even bigger than his stature. He transformed Georgetown where he was the head coach from nineteen seventy two to the nineteen ninety, eight, ninety, nine season into a college basketball powerhouse. He transformed big time, College Basketball Making the sport boulder and blacker than it had been before Thomson's Hoyas led by Patrick Ewing when the nineteen eighty-four national championship the first title ever won by a black coach in by a team with an all black roster. He also led the sports protest that I remember as a kid his walkout in nineteen eighty nine protesting a proposal known as proposition forty two, which would have banned freshmen who didn't meet academic standards from getting on scholarship. There's lots of talk about here including his contentious relationship with the press which inspired the phrase Hoya Paranoia and his connection with Alan Iverson who said repeatedly the Thompson saved his life. Joel, what's the first thing that comes to mind for you when you think of John Thompson unfortunately, the first thing that comes to mind for me as somebody who grew up in Houston as University of Houston Fan is that he won his first national championship at the expense of my University of Houston cougars. So that's probably one of the very first major sporting events that I can remember because I was. I. May Have Not even been six years old but I was right around that. And it's our member Georgetown winning and I remember my father not being too broken up about it because the head coach or the other team was black, which has. Rooting interest is in my family, a lot of the Times but beyond that. came to read more about him and learn more about him, and we talk a lot about those starter autobiographies and biographies, and I read one by John. Thompson when I was very young and so one of the things that came out of that as I thought a lot about the value of having like an unafraid intimidated black coach in the effect that that might have on their players because that can give you a lot of strength especially in a time when you're like particularly vulnerable and sort of reshaping your identity like when you're in college having that sort of influenced really pivotal and it's just quite a gift to have someone not think of. You in the way of it gift, it must be for someone to not think of you as a problem in need of solving or something broken Nita fixing, and that's the way I thought John Thompson thought of his players, and actually this more than we were doing research I came across and talking about Alan Iverson and back in the days when people were worrying about him, you know the People Agresson kept company with and all this other stuff and he said now why would Alan Iverson not have a policy? They love him around him they're comfortable with him they include him he doesn't have to score forty points to be included into their world. And like that's a really powerful way of looking at the world and that's not often what you hear from coaches, professors of people. In positions of authority at a certain point That's the perspective that you just don't. Even today, you don't hear it and it must have started especially radical thirty or so years ago when he said it so I mean, that's a lot of stuff. But like you know John Thompson was just one of those guys that I just remember thinking man that does not afraid and it must be awesome to learn from somebody like that. Yeah. I I I I'm pretty sure that my first time really knowing about him and having this. Reverence. For him which I think a lot of basketball fans did was around on Iverson this guy who I mean it's easy to forget how much trouble Allen Iverson was in before he got to Georgetown, how much already seen and how you know how precarious. So many parts of his life already were and the fact that he always cited this this man, this someone who acted as a you know had this sort of. Father figure thing to him. You know he was sort of without any of the negative associations. He was somebody out of the sort of world of like the huxtables or some this man who carried himself with this sort of forceful dignity also, though he makes me think batum, there is this kind of bygone era of especially in college basketball, but it was even sort of case in in professional basketball people like Phil Jackson now. This sort of that there was this sort of. Graceful Patriarchal figure who would be not only tactician but also kind of a father figure kind of this sort of patrician somebody to look after you, and now I I think this out with the way players come along now and that there's much more power they have their own relationships with, for example, shoe companies and things like that. But he kinda showed that a black man could fit that mold but that one that he could fit that mold. But then to that, there would be some costs with the paranoia and having to adjust that mode to fit somebody like Iverson, that there would be all kinds of different contortions to make that work. So it was yeah. He sort of filled in archetype. Then at the same time kind of switched it around kind of remixed it I mean the the sport that he came into he came to Georgetown in Nineteen, seventy, two, a school I mean it's almost like comical. How far off the like image Georgetown was from like you know what if you kind of looked at the world like higher education through the Lens of sports which I think probably all of us did grant kids like you know about these schools because they had good baller football teams and like you look at the image of of Georgetown the Thompson cultivated of this like. Black team you know there's even Michael Graham that first player who really liked shaved his had in in the early eighties Patrick Ewing is just like the kind of coolest blackest team in all of sports like how different that was from the image of Georgetown University where I think I had a friend who told me like he thought Georgetown was a historically black college growing up Oh, you hear that over and over again today it's the same thing I grew up thinking Georgetown was like if not a black college like it was over represented. In terms of black students or whatever right I mean. Can you imagine like how forceful personality and how impressive it is to take this institution and transform it in the way that he did in such a short period of time I? Mean it wasn't even a place where they were good at basketball much. Much less than a place that had a basketball team that looked like it did and played like a dead and to take it and become a national losing to Jordan on the shot and eighty two, and then beating jolts, cougars and eighty four losing to Villanova eighty-five. But just becoming this kind of cultural force that transcended the game really transforming the sport and the way The way that he did, it's just such an impressive. Accomplishment and then Joel. When you talked about the ways in which he related to players, I think you can also look at it and this is a testament how complex. You can spin it in the total opposite way. The the Hoya Paranoia thing was about how he wouldn't let the media talk to the players and he cultivated sort of you know it's us against the world sort of mentality, which you can totally understand given the racism that he and the team faced, and there's the story about Kim confronting the famed Druglord Rifle Edmund that you'll be reading about and all the stories about Thomson, this week and that was kind of approaching players like Alonzo, mourning and befriending them and Thomson. Like nobody in this sounds Apocryphal. Everybody says that it's true. It has the whiff of legend to it that he was the only one who ever stood up to Edmund and say, you have to said you have to stay away from from my players and so Joel like he wanted. He didn't see these guys problems and he didn't see them as things that needed. They needed to be fixed and yet he wanted to protect them and keep them. You know cosseted or whatever you WANNA call it an attribute that because if you read John Thomson's interviews or read his quotes, he actually has some very interesting views on race and racism because he talks a lot about how he's experienced a lot of racism from black people which I would say the main color is on freight because he talked about how he Was Big and black people growing up in his neighborhood would make fun of him and you know that he's faced a lot of scrutiny amongst people and I think the way that rough Wiley wrote about it is that black people that did not know John Thompson well tended to like him more than black people who did and that white people that knew him well liked him a lot more than white people that didn't know amid aw that's fascinating. which is sort of fascinating way to think about it right it. Just as he cut this like really unique figure, I would love to know more about the hiring process that Georgetown went through when brought in John Thompson because I believe he was a high school coach yet before they brought him in this the idea that this predominantly white school would hire a black coach, not just the black coach coach who looked like that a black coach talk like that and a black coach who was hey man I'm going to bring in. A bunch of black dudes and you guys just going to have to deal with it and I mean and to support him because he faced a lot of criticism for having these all black teams and eat that criticism even followed him into picking the nineteen eighty eight Olympic team where they were worried that he wasn't going to pick enough white players for that team Dan. Marley was on that team. was he the only other one was either one with everybody else likes if you got down on the team, you're covering your neat. Dan Let's get his twenty three and me before we make any. Okay. So? Yeah. That's what I always think of with John. Vincent early, they're not even really coaches like that today anymore I do does that sort of our type even exist I mean I think the last the last holdover and it's only because of his perch on Team USA is coach K.. N. Even even there you see all the time guys just being like Oh yeah. I hate that dude like he didn't put me on the team I. Mean There's that That sort of reverential status that would even cover up some of the ways in which people don't like the person like that's gone I, think, then what do you make of like looking back on it? Now the prop forty, two walkout and that's the thing I really remember and maybe not grasping what it was and what he was doing but it was a very effective form of protests in terms of getting attention. The fact that it wasn't like he said, I'm not going to go to the game he actually went to the game. As it was about to start, he walked out. Of the arena made to ensure that the cameras captured. But this was a protest against a rule that said essentially if you don't meet these. Academic standards were not gonNA. You can't get a scholarship, which is you know he thought was racist and he was not afraid to say it and he got the rule you know by the He people followed him in the the role wasn't enacted yet. It's a it's amazing. We've been talking about this in terms of the NBA The way that protest politics and the inevitable fact of like visibility in sports like come together and Mary one another like the way you just narrative that shows the savvy and we've talked about all the ways that he stands out. Six ten black man you know always you know everybody knows him and so we also mentioned that he won a couple of championships with the celtics he want to rent. Yeah. Yeah. So you know he's got all this history and in his case. On his body and knows that if he goes to the place and then makes a move, not only does it draw attention, but it serves as a metaphor for like. A certain kind of indispensability right and that that I think is speaks directly to the issue like you need these young kids and taking himself away becomes then like a way to. Show what could happen on the collegiate level and even at the professional levels if if there were more of that kind of refusal. So it's this interesting interplay between yes. Presence and using platform. But also saying, you know what if I'm not there it's interesting right? Like, yes. Georgetown this majority white sort of conservative seeming Catholic University but. There is a slight difference, right because even if you think about the Fab five or whatever you don't think about you know the the black communities of Ann Arbor. Right. But in Georgetown there is that middle slice that is the university that's largely wet but you're in DC and that that matters to that you're in this historically black city. If it's not a black identified institution, you know when I lived in DC this was after Thompson had already retired but I went to watch them play a couple of times and it was like you know these are the Greg Monroe years this is not the ewing. Georgetown but some of that grandeur and some of that identification between the players and the place if not, necessarily the institution, some of that you know that plus the sort of faded glory of the the big. East to like it's still Kinda to it felt like something and to be a coach and somehow still be the main attraction and then understand that power I. think that's that's really important. But you know after that those issues like that were not at all resolved after nine, hundred, eighty, nine, you read one of my favorite basketball books darcy his last shot. It's all about guys just trying to get their seven hundred on the sat so that they can be eligible. Eligible to play college ball. So all of this sort of unfairness of that have still managed to pertain, but that was a big move Joel. He was a believer in college as a transformational opportunity for the players he was bringing into the program and talked about you know the opportunity to use basketball and not just have basketball the goal and to get an education and I. Think we're all pretty cynical about college sports and about the NCAA. So do you feel like he was upholding this institution in a way that it may be shouldn't have been upheld or was he kind of looking at it from a advantage was appropriate for his era and was saying like maybe this? Obviously. As we talked about, he saw the flaws and the NCAA and attacked attacked when he thought appropriate but thought, yeah, there is still away that you can use the system for your benefit. Yeah I mean I think I'm definitely torn on that right he won his national championship in Nineteen eighty-four, which is like sort of the year this dividing line when college sort of fundamentally changes because you know the the TV money starts rolling in and it sort of fundamentally alters the relationship that athletes have their universities and universities have their conferences and the conferences with the NCAA, right but to your point. So, while I do believe, the player should be paid for their labor I would never dismiss the case being made that college is a transformative opportunity. In the reason I say that is because I played college football with guys who I know they would not have been able to get into college without the opportunity and as a result have you know moved on and have fairly middle-class lives like I've seen them grow just within those few years and then get placed in professional opportunities that might not have existed because they probably wouldn't have been able to afford. To go to school or they may not been able to get in otherwise right so I would never deny that John Thompson is right that it is transformative opportunity but that doesn't mean that you don't owe people with their owed. You'd I mean I don't mean that you can't pay people because those those athletes are also giving those universities opportunities as well. It's a transaction and so I think you know John Thompson talked often about wanting to be rich you know he said I want to be remembered as a teacher and I want to be rich and I think that is that is my goal to I don't care about being a teacher, I would like to be rich someday. I think you can balance both you can hold both of those ideas in your head right that college is important in. The. Development is an opportunity to develop as a person and as an athlete and that also that people should be paid for putting their bodies on the line and going through it because it's it's a fundamentally different experience is a college athlete then as opposed to just being a college student. So I wish I'm sure there's probably more literature out there on would John Thompson thinks about players being paid I don't know I. Haven't seen him way in the most recent fight over this stuff I bet it's out there and I'm probably just behind but don't you think I mean I would imagine why I don't i. don't want to guess what John Thompson would say about that. Now to be honest I, it could go anywhere right? Like no one who he is. Yeah. I can imagine him being not only to sort of attached to the idea of. Education, as a pathway, which is uncontroversial as far as I'm. Concerned but also to the more problematic thing of student athlete I think he did have an idea of that coming together and being a designated area which. Interestingly. I didn't know until recently that he had been, you know he was on the board of Nike. So he was this person that and all of the ways that that play is in college athletics. So somebody who definitely straddled a lot of these things you know the the university, the individual mandate, the athletic gear sponsor that sort of stood in the middle of all the contradictions of sport sort of maybe uniquely in that. Sort of intersection. So partial answer for you Joel is that I found a radio interview that he did I'm in two thousand and nineteen and talking about whether college athletes should be paid and kind of disappointingly he just got kind of as a lot of people do got caught up in the details of it like all right. You're saying that college athletes should be paid. Well, how would we implement at? What are the title nine? Implications. Would you pay the last guy on the bench as much as an it's like that's not really kind of the fundamentally important thing here but he was somebody who I guess you know had practical experience on the job and was concerned about the practical implications of what this what this would have done for his era in this era. Interesting makes sense. Yeah. Also suggests we said the John Thompson was a great basketball coach he lost to championship game was about total of three points. Was a gracious, very gracious loser on those occasions. But had he won those two games we may be talking about him in the same way that we talk about coach. Dean Smith would ever like he's still a legend, but I always feel like you get it. We talked so much about his activism in his teaching and not so much about what he did on the court but he was a great coach to just people just don't remember it as much at this point now. So we can adjudicate than eight, hundred, Eighty, eight, Olympic that another time we'll focus on, we'll focus on college success. Totally right and maybe he just wanted there to be a Dream Team and ninety two. So that's why that's why he led the US to a bronze-medal. Hey Russia was using pros prosed. Electric cars may seem a little different, but new technology always seems weird at first even podcast seemed weird when they first came out in the early two thousands, they were called audio blogs and downloaded onto MP three players. But now people all over the world listen to podcasts all the time just like podcasts electric cars are normal. Now they have longer ranges meeting. They're not just for work commutes. You can take an electric vehicle just about anywhere. You WanNa go with faster charging and plenty of charging stations along the way it's easy to charge up wherever you need to in lots of affordable models unless routine maintenance mean electric cars may actually help you save money electric cars they're normal now learn more and normal now dot com. On this week's bonus segment for slate plus members we're going to talk about the on court basketball side of the ENGA- playoffs Luca Danni pitches out. The Lakers have moved on and Jamal Murray and Donovan Mitchell. They're going back and forth and one of the most epic shootouts postseason history. If you WANNA hear our conversation about all that and you will want to you have to be a slate plus member is just thirty five dollars. For the first year you can sign up at slate, dot, com slash hangup plus. Last week the Washington Post published the latest in a series of pieces on the toxic male dominated workplace culture of the Washington football team. For that story, the Post collected accounts of twenty five women who said they'd been sexually harassed while working for the team this following a previous article that included seventeen such accounts. What's new this time is that owner Daniel Snyder was directly implicated with one woman a former cheerleader saying that snyder approached her at a two thousand four charity event and suggested she joined his close friend in a hotel room so they could get. To know each other better. Then there's the lead account in the story about how the teams then lead broadcaster. Larry Michael allegedly commission to video of outtakes from the teams two thousand eight cheerleader swimsuit calendar video asking for a collection of quote. The good parts that has moments when the women's Nipples were inadvertently exposed Michael said, the video was to be made for Snyder in the post has a copy of the video and a similar one made in two, thousand, ten, both Snyder and Michael denied having any knowledge of the videos after the post piece came out. Joining us now Lindsay Jones she's a senior writer for the athletic covering the NFL last week she wrote a piece headlined the NFL never had its metoo reckoning. Let Washington where it starts Lindsey. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. You've been covering the NFL for a long time. How much of what the Post reported about Washington is a reflection of that organization's culture and how much of it is a reflection of the culture of the NFL's a whole will win the first post story came out in late July. There was not a lot of surprise from women who work in around professional sports about the things that were in that story about the sort of toxic work environment for women who works there that story also included the accounts of two female reporters who had covered the team who were sexually harassed by team officials. None of that was surprising I think what we found through this Washington Post, reporting. And subsequent reporting is that the environment and the culture within the Washington football team is especially toxic, but it's hardly unique in that women who work across this industry whether they work in the business office in football are cheerleaders are reporters who cover the team who work in T. media. They all have similar experiences to this. I think what we've seen in Washington might be on the on the extreme side. Especially, what has happened for a very long time with cheerleading program there but I don't think you're gonNA find a lot of women who were shocked to hear these sort of allegations. Lindsey what are the odds that the teams were placed investigation of itself will actually produce a final report that credible right? Because they're invest essentially Dan Snyder hired somebody that's going to then hire you know that's going to investigate. Themselves and it doesn't seem like the way the investigations should be working eso. This is something that was kind of controversial in a little bit surprising. The fact that the NFL allow Daniel Snyder to hire an attorney to conduct this own investigation and this investigation began right after the post first story came out and that first story did not directly implicate Dan Snyder in any of these allegations. So that would be. At the time that was the explanation for why this was not an independent investigation that was commissioned by the NFL rather was one that Washington was able to call on its own the attorney who is running that investigation a woman Beth Wilkinson who is a very high power DC attorney former. Federal Prosecutor at she came recommended by the League Office Roger Goodell in his staff and she will report her findings to Roger Goodell on her and his staff. So if if there are people within the organization who are not complying, she will report that to Goodell and good will use whatever comes out of this report to potentially Levy discipline against whoever within the Washington organization I still do think it's a mistake that Goodell and the NFL League office did not make this a truly independent investigation. They called it an investigation in a statement that they released last week but that's not true I think. You could call it an outside investigation but the fact that Beth Wilkinson was by Dan Snyder in his being paid presumably by Dan Snyder doesn't make it an independent investigation. Have you heard anything Lindsey about other NFL. Teams either overtly or more quietly trying to kind of look into their histories into their closets. So to speak and and and and make sure that nothing like this has happened or is happening as they're sort of a or other people sort of taking stock at this moment or they just sort of glad that they're not the Washington team whose name is an expletive that we we can't even say. Like the totem for all things bad in the in the league may be I, mean, is this just another scapegoat member districts to them or others kind of trying to see what what's going on in their own houses? He I mean I think there probably is a little bit of that. There's nothing out there publicly at this point where not have you know officially begun investigations of those sorts of things but that was one of the things that I wanted to address last week when I was writing a column about this because you know owners are very very reticent to get involved with their peers business they. Don't get involved in their their financial business they certainly stay out of their personal business and the the way that they run their individual franchises. But this is hardly the only place where women are marginalized in the workplace where women are face sexual harassment in the workplace especially within sports. So these owners would be wise to examine what sort of culture is going on in the buildings and what the what the environment is like for the women that work for them whether that's how they're cheerleaders are treated. Comedy Women Work in the business office who has seats at the table whose voices are actually being heard. And and win there are allegations because we know I mean the women who work in and around the NFL especially in media we know a lot of incidents that happen to other reporters. We know that teams know about these things and a lot of times we feel like they're not taken seriously and it's probably time that across the NFL, these sort of allegations are taken seriously and addressed because. While like I mentioned Washington I think is is especially heinous and they're kind of the example around the NFL for the worst run franchise in the NFL. These. Sort of things are happening and you don't want to be the next one right. You don't want to be the next team that has this sort of this sort of scandal to hit and it could happen probably everywhere all thirty two teams across the NFL. So I think it would be better for the franchise for the League and for America if Snyder was forced to sell the team if you if you thought the. Bush, which is not going to happen. But if or if he was forced to sell the team Lindsey in your column, you said, you weren't expecting Snyder to sell and you weren't expecting other NFL owners to try to force him to do. So did you think this is an opinion piece? Did you think about calling on the league to force him out calling on owners to try to force him out and is there a risk in saying we don't expect this to happen in kind of giving them cover to The easy thing which is to just let this guy continued skate and be the one of the worst of the worst owners and professional sports. Yeah. Absolutely and it was it was something I. Thought About and when I wrote that column last week just gotten off a very long conference call fan call with fellow reporters and editors from around our company about what's going to happen in Washington and I think part of like you said I have covered the NFL. For a long time. This is my fourteenth year or my thirteen year excuse me covering the NFL and. I have a lot of skepticism and just kind of let a cynicism about way the way the League works and what it takes to actually force progress and for some sort of change in owners are the last ones to hold themselves accountable to hold each other accountable and to actually. Take. A giant step like that and we saw massive a massive change in the Washington football team this year when Dan Snyder finally agreed to to drop the team and change the team name but he didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart. He didn't do it because all of a sudden this light bulb went off where he thought a Ha, the team is racist. What everybody has been saying for all these years is true. He did it because his business partners forced him to it was fedex, it was Nike There was tremendous financial pressure and that ultimately forces change. That's what. Ultimately would force. Dan Snyder Tilton we sell this team is if the other owners realize that Washington has become an albatross that they're not making as much money as they should be an unfortunately for all of the losing that Washington has done on the field and for all the embarrassment mutation has brought off of the field they still are one of the highest valued. NFL. Franchises in the league and they're still bringing in a lot of money despite how many empty seats they always have at Fedex field despite how many people don't want to wear their merchandise anymore. So while they continue to make a lot of money, it's hard to see the other owners stepping up enforcing forcing the sale and also can kind of comes back to. The previous question I think the Vincent asked about you know what are the other owners saying are they looking within their other organizations? Is that? If they step up and they say you have to sell because of this or we're GONNA force you to sell because of this there every single their owners opening themselves up to all of the skeletons that are in their closets and you can you better believe that there's very powerful owners around the NFL who are probably terrified of what they would find if all. Of their history of what it's like for women working in their organizations and their own personal dealings with women to come out in the open will speaking a skepticism you mentioned in your column that you remain skeptical of of Daniel Snyder is motivation behind all of his major moves and twenty twenty. One of those was hiring the NFL's first black president, Jason Right and. I have a couple of questions off of that one is somebody who's covered the league. Do you have a sense for how dysfunctional the Washington team is paired everybody else because I mean, that's the thing that sort of occurs to me that the first black team president in history has to clean up this cake this mess right and he's not a very good position. To succeed and just generally would do you know of Jason his preparedness for this position I suppose he asked Jason Rain is extremely impressive when he was hired I guess knows about two weeks ago Wynn Washington made that announcement that he'd be the team President you don't kind of started scrambling to find out who is who is Jason Right you know some of us Remember covering him as a player. Remember it. We found scattering reports of kind of sort of running back. He was but really what you heard when you talk to people who knew him as a player in new him kind of in those farm at his ear formative years even get dating back to when he was a college student at northwestern and then through his. Career. which you know he was not a star player by any means I. mean he was a conflict a running back fullback slash slash special teams player. You know he was the third down back, which is you know ver- it's not a glamorous position because he was doing just a lot of blocking in the in the running game he was not getting birth mini Carey's. But in every locker room that he stepped into, he immediately became a leader. He immediately became one of the most respected voices in those locker rooms beat because he had this massive curiosity and interest in issues beyond just XS and Os and what happened on the football field and you know I spoke to him I guess right after he was hired and Asked her about his experience as a player how that led to his interest may be going into a front office and he said he'd never really when he was playing, he didn't envision himself becoming you know a team President or general manager or any of those sorts of things. But the time that he spent serving as an NFL PA rap really showed him how much he didn't know as a player about the business side of football and what's going on with the ownership level. What's going on in all of these businesses negotiations, and that really just solidified him to himself his decision that he wanted to go, but he's going to be done. Playing and that he was going to go to business school and he wanted to go CONV- start this new career for himself in business and he obviously he went got his MBA he worked for McKinsey and Company as a consultant, and then in that work, he did he he really made a name for himself in the diversity and inclusion space and anti-racism training and stuff that the NFL very clearly means right now. So there is no questioning Jason rates qualifications right now and I, we've already seen he's if he's been even technically in the job for two weeks I, think Monday may have been his a week ago Monday. Might have been his first starting day. We're already saying his impact in terms of the meetings that he's held. He was a driving voice when Washington was the first team to cancel a scrimmage last week following the NBA players decision not to play and he's been a really big part of all of that. He is going to be very highly involved in this investigation into the workplace culture and to the sexual harassment claims. So yeah, I think he is the right guy at the right time. I am skeptical remain skeptical about Daniel Centers motivations for all of the moves that he's made but at least now, maybe for the first time in a very. Long Time maybe maybe for the duration of Daniel Snyder ownership, which dates back to nineteen, ninety nine he actually has the right people advising him. Jason Ryan is going to be that voice and Ron Rivera is absolutely the right guy to try to fix this mess of a franchise But Joe you're exactly right that is he's walking into a really difficult situation and I hope that he is going to be given a lot of runway to really change that culture there, and you know if this is a team that they might be bad this year they have a lot of uncertainty at the quarterback position the roster top to bottom isn't that great. Be. The Ron. Rivera is going through cancer treatments right now I mean there's there's a lot that is there stacked up against so. I hope that these guys, Ron Rivera and Jason Right have a long time to really build this team and rebuild this team into something that the NFL can be proud of because it's in a really long time since anybody in the NFL has been proud of anything that Washington is done from a media angle I mean one of the sort of characteristics of the relationship between. The NFL and the media partially because of its enormous rights deals with certain media entities has been let's say a lack of transparency. Let's say struggle with transparency and whether with with the CD issues whether it was with all the drama surrounding con cabinet, there was a sort of a built in kind of things you won't. You won't get to know around the NFL is there Any reason to believe that this will be different. So for example, you know they'll be a a report produced and it goes to Roger Goodell will that be open to you that be something that the media will be able to look at serious way without millions of miles of reactions how confident are you that we will even know the real story with this once it's all Said and done. Yeah I. Mean That's GonNa. It's a really good question. That's one of my questions about the the way that this investigation is running. The fact that it was one that was you know commissioned by Daniel Snyder. If this had been an independent and MESSA NFL investigation, they do typically releases entire reports You know we saw the if the the the the original before. When Bob Mueller did the the big investigation into I believe that was the ray rice situation. You know we saw the documents that went along deflate gate I mean way too many documents probably. Hopefully. Yeah. The PSI levels and all of those things. So hopefully, they will turn all over the overall if that and. That's our job. Right as reporters now is to stay on them to keep telling these stories and I think it's been so impressive about what the Washington Post is done over the last six weeks. This is not a six week thing. I mean clearly this is something that they've been reporting for a very long time is it's it's really journalism WanNa one right is that the story doesn't end with the first story and they had you know fifteen or so women in the first story that number is now over fifty and you know that there are more and so two you just. Keep digging and you keep getting these stories and you keep trying to hold these these people accountable and there is new. Sally Jenkins the the Rockstar columnist from the Washington Post who has just been on top of she's so good. She had another holiday on Monday morning about kind of the next steps four and S and the lawyers of the women who made these claims against the Russian football team and against Daniel Snyder their lawyers meeting with Washington in the in the League investigator. So. It's going to continue to move forward and that's my job. It's my peers job to to hold them accountable here and not let this get swept under the rug not let this take a back seat because it's an issue that involves women I think typically that happens ally in the NFL. Where you know I guess it's my cynicism again of like will care you because I think a lot of times we we see that when it comes to issues involving women in. Any professional sports that they don't they just don't care as much about as about some other issues. So we've set to keep on them. We have to demand to see that result that report and all of the findings that come out of it Lindsey you. You wrote very well and movingly in your column about kind of the connection between the women who worked for the Washington football team and women who covered the sport and how you can relate to add some of the. Experiences that are described in the piece. I mean we sort of an and this is on me I guess I mean we went very quickly passed the you know the start of that post piece, which is that it's not just that there were that video of the quote good parts of that video. It's the fact that the video existed in the first place is that there is a cheerleader swimsuit calendar video made by the team and so even if there wasn't like horrifying. Intrusive video made it still like this is the water that were all swimming in in this league. So can you just speak a little bit to kind of the ways in which you relate to what was described in in the peace, and then like what are some of the met coping mechanisms that you know women you know you and your colleagues take on to work in this environment? Yeah I think it's why we related so much and I personally related to the very. Washington Post story that came out in late July which did include the house from two female porters including one of my colleagues here at the athletic beat writer who covers Washington? who was harassed by one of the personnel executive since been fired I think it's because you working in sports, any sort of area of sports, but you know obviously my lens is very narrow on sports media. You know this is a very male dominated space and the norms that exist in sports media departments that they're not what exists normal workplaces. I've told a lot of my stories is just like what my job is like from. You know every aspect of my job, the hours I work travel the work environments, all these sorts of things to you know, my friends who are lawyers doctors and Teachers and stuff, and just a lot of that stuff. It's just it's so different. The world's are so different but there is this expectation or this understanding that you know sports is fun. You know it's a dream job you you should do anything to work here and so you internalize okay this is the cost of working in this space I just have to deal with the the late night unsolicited text messages from players or from assistant coaches or when you're at the NFL, combine the senior bowl which a lot of men who are in the NFL they treat those events like the Bachelor Party and it's really disgusting a lot of times and it's people get very very drunk and you know. There's just up at our male colleagues just don't think about, but they're things that really intrinsically affect our ability to to do our job in the way that we connect with sources. The way that we developed sources the way that we condemn go back to these people that we need to be sources for our stories So yeah, you just you just kind of internalize it and you share it with your female peers. I don't know how many different group tax I have with other female reporters, women who work for teams in various roles where we just event we commiserate we warn each other about problematic men both within the media industry and then within teams if I know that there's an. Assistant coach who consistently acted inappropriately with women both within the franchise that he works for the reporters and he goes to another team you better believe that I'm going to call the women who cover that team and tell them to look out for this guy to be careful around him and that kind of stuff happens all the time and we just we just do that staff because we want to kind of exist in the space, we want to keep our jobs. We WanNa keep doing our jobs well, and we absolutely don't want to be part of the story and that's why it was so incredible to me that the to whip to reporters came forward because that's inclination. Right is journalists you. Never, WanNa be the story that's my nightmare scenarios that show up on one of these the blogs know the old deadspin or something like that. That's a nightmare scenario. So that's why we don't say anything and we kind of just keep keep internalizing it and you know I'm kind of sick of it. Now, an omelette older, a married mom I kind of feel like I'm the team mom for the other female reporters now who cover the NFL and I'm just sick of it and I want everybody shoots does now and and still scared sometimes to tell my own my own stuff. But if it's going to help other women feel comfortable coming forward and holding these men don't count and let's do it. Lindsey. Thank you so much for sharing that inferred the work that you do Lindy Jones senior writer for the athletic her piece is headlined. The NFL never had its me reckoning but Washington be it starts will link to it on our show page Lindsey. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Support for this podcast comes from state farm with surprisingly great rates. State farm is the real deal when it comes to home and car insurance state farm agents are always ready to help you personalize your insurance plan. So you can create a policy that fits your needs. You can manage your coverage, pay your bill or even file a claim right from your phone with the state farm mobile APP, and you can always call one of the state farm agents in neighborhoods across the country. Get a great rate without sacrificing great service when you want the real deal like a good neighbor state farm is there. Now, it is time for the balls and we didn't get a chance to talk about it in our John. Thomson, segment but I was looking up of George Tan putting can takeoff on Basketball Jerseys which is a big deal testament to the everything we were talking about before like how Johnson transformed this predominantly white institution at least on the basketball court. In this article that I found, which is an publication called. Sports Fan, Journal the writer just towards the end has a list of Georgetown, players. So I thought we could just kind of like let the lesser known Georgetown players of the top scenario just kind of wash over us for a minute. Thelma Harrington Germain Junkyard Dog Williams Heidi White Ticker page this. Kind of art era of George Tan I guess Joel You have other other Georgetown players that just pop into your head when you think Georgetown basketball. I'm the oldest person on the podcast. So like David David Wingate Reggie Williams what about Michael Jackson I do remember Michael Jackson I do remember Michael Jackson I think the victor page though was sort of the the dividing line between the the Great Georgetown days of your and sort of the decline towards the end and if I mean, have you all read about Victor Page you guys know half? Yeah I haven't actually. Just, we don't get into it here, but I won't do catch up on him. It's not didn't go so great after. So do you WanNa be doing David wingate stole victory pages, David Wingate Yeah David, wingate, we're thinking of you John Thompson rest in Peace Jal what's Your David? One get? My David Wingate is cliff Robinson. So in one of the saddest and most despairing weeks in recent memory, it's understandable if you missed hearing about the death of former NBA player cliff, Robinson Robinson died early Saturday after what his family said was a year long fight with. Lymphoma he was only fifty three Robinson became known as uncle cliff's later in his eighteen year NBA career which came to an end in two thousand, seven with the New Jersey. Nets it'd be hard to call Robinson Star though he did have a lots of success in the league. He was the sixth man of the year nineteen ninety-three, the NBA All star year later. And became a model for the players. We now know today a stretch fours those players a prize today for the versatility in ways that they weren't thin if only because we didn't have the math in analysis for it for his career, Robinson shot thirty six percent from three point range in guarded every one of the floor from the perimeter to the paint he. was so good at defense in fact that he was twice named to the NBA's all defensive second team in two thousand and two, thousand, two, an admirable career. I'd say Robinson was so much a part of the NBA landscape I grew up with that. It seemed as if he was always there joining the likes of one, thousand, nine hundred ask guys like kill, Cedric. Anthony Peeler and elden Campbell. Robinson was never going to be Jordan or dream or even his blazes teammate Clyde Drexler. But eighteen years in the league man that's as much of a fetus becoming an NBA All Star consider only twenty players. League history have ever played nineteen or more years. But Robinson wasn't always effet like all of us uncle cliff was once young and when he was young, he had the fortune or misfortune of playing on some very good. But snake bitten Portland Trail Blazer teams here, I'm thinking particularly of the one thousand nine hundred. Ninety one blazers. Let me give you the starting lineup for that team drexler shooting guard Terry Porter Point Guard Jerome Kersey, small Ford Buck Williams at power forward Kevin. Duckworth center the only one of those guys to never make an all star team Kersee who started over. Robinson. The season before the blazers loss the Detroit. Pistons. In the NBA finals. So it seemed like this would be their year. That's the way the NBA was supposed to work back. Then a succession of agonizing failure before the break through the Lakers had to go through the Celtics the Pistons had to go through the Celtics and then the Lakers and now was the blazes turn. The blazers lived up to expectations early, winning their first eleven games. They took three of five from the Lakers than division rival. They split two games with the Pistons they split to with the Celtics in notably they swept the young upstart Chicago. Bulls led by Michael Jordan the blazers went onto win an NBA leading sixty three games that year they were the title favorites entering the playoffs. Portland beat Seattle in Utah and the first two rounds setting up a Western Conference finals matchup against Magic Johnson and the Fading Lakers this is supposed to be the moment where the blazers finally defeated their longtime nemesis who'd beaten them in the last three playoff matchups. But as it turned out, the series was actually the last Hurrah, those old showtime Lakers and it came at the expense of Cliff Robinson facing elimination in game six in La the blazers trailed virtually all game before making a late run to make things tight with less than a minute to go the Lakers had the ball in a one point lead magic was backing down Buck Williams on the left wing and then. Left side double team matic batted. Away. Robertson. Water giral Kirsty. Paul. Had A chance the lead in case you missed what happened there Robinson minutes to deflect magic's pass tear reporters scooped it up on the break and he gave it up the Kersee Kersee saw Robinson streaking in the past that Robinson bobbled out of bounds it was agonizing to watch so I can only imagine how Roberson felt that pretty much did it the Lakers won the series but then got blown up Jordan and the Bulls in the finals that was Mj's I championship. If you follow the NBA, you know nobody else had a chance for the next few seasons including Portland who lost to the Bulls and six the next year just like that the blazers title window was over. But that ninety ninety, one team was Portland's best and maybe they could have beaten Jordan that year before he really got rolling only twelve teams in NBA history of one. So many games in not advanced to the NBA finals it was a historic disappointment. But. The death of Cliff Robinson reminded me that that Portland seem his also had a disproportionate share of heartbreak away from the court. Two years later draws petro. Vic. Who was traded to New Jersey a few months before that playoff run died in a car accident in Germany he was only twenty eight. And two, thousand, eight the year after Robinson retired Kevin Duckworth. died of heart failure he was forty four and two thousand fifteen jerome Kersee dot of a pulmonary embolism. He was fifty two. In Saturday it was uncle liffey. In many ways, cliff Robinson in the Portland Trailblazers are the unsung foot soldiers who make the NBA what it is the championship story Arcs of Michael and magic me nothing. There's no worthy foil somebody has to make them work hard for it. So those on-court celebrations in champaign locker room showers filled truly cathartic. You just hope Portland realizes would it had an uncle cliff in that team? There's no shame in losing. Let alone to those guys. That was great and Vincent You tweeted the other day about cliff Robinson what what are your memories of him yet to offer analysis much less than goals. I will always remember not only that blazers team, but cliff Robinson specifically because they taught me early on an alternate way of loving sports than just wins and losses. So I can actually remember the first time ever watched basketball on my own my my parents were not big. They were casual fans they whereas we're kind of up on things they they liked. Michael Jordan they liked you know they they liked basketball but it wasn't a big thing in my home in our member as a kid going into living room by myself and turning on a basketball game for the first time we lived in. CHICAGO. At this time, we had moved there because my dad a musician gotten a job there and turned on basketball and. It was a bulls home game and it was against who I later learned the blazers. I. Didn't know anything except they had these cool black away jerseys which still to me I belong in the annals of their journey Black Jersey. Ran White Stripe across the bottom big graphic font across the lower case to all lower case the blade. Yeah. Yeah. Right yeah yeah. That was yes. So they had that yes. Amazing. Just a Cool Jersey and it was the classic first time watching on your own experience. I quickly learned just by watching this Guy Clyde Drexler. He has to be the best guy on their team just the way in, but there was this other Guy Cliff Robinson who I noticed immediately because he had a headband. And it was a little flourish that actually harmonized really well with his game. As you mentioned, he was he could shoot. He could go in for a dunk but all with this sort of live grace really tall really slim and just had all the style in the world as a basketball player, a stylist both in dress with the headband and on the court. I later learned I'm during the ninety two finals. So you know I'm still I'm not even ten years. I learned that Cliff Robinson was my dad's favorite player why and I and I had no clue why he would be as favourite. He wasn't the best on his team or among the two teams he just Kinda liked his style. The musician like in the headband thing and. a person who had devoted his life to style of a kind through music just like the cut of this guy's gyp. That's an and you know for for many years after that that's tried to enjoy basketball. Yes. The greatest feats. Yes. The the most intense moments but just also like in the way somebody does something right and cliff Robinson was just cool. You know he had he never really saw him get too worked up in either direction he was cool and that's it for me. This is an archetype on a basketball team. There's just cool guy on on. On the Houston Rockets of today like Pj Tucker to me is just cool. He wears cool sneakers before the Games and during the Games, he to will go ahead and don a headband. If if call to begin you could you could do this in many other ways. So, here's to the cool guy, here's the cliff Robinson. Stop. That was great too and I really like cliff Robinson. I think there's like a secret society of Cliff Robinson fans and maybe it's because he wasn't the best guy on the team. It's fun. It's really cool combination of not being the best guy, but also being a guy who could do everything. On the court and like kind of what you want your. If you have a realistic view of your own athletic ability, you're like, I'm not going to be the star, but I would like to be able to do everything at every level of the game the Rasheed Wallace Corollary exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing that was most surprising to me in reading you know the rundown of his accomplishments including your rundown of his accomplishment stole as that he made it all defense team because I I would have never Just in my memory, I would have been like, okay. He probably wouldn't six man of the year. He's a good shooter all that I had no recollection of him being a good defensive player I would have thought he would have been kind of all offense no defense guy that's another testament to his his versatility. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he learned he came under Jim Calhoun man I'm like I. Don't think you could get onto floor unless you played defense Jim Calhoun. Clip Robinson we remember you. Does our show for today. Our producer is Melissa the Kaplan to listen to Pashas subscribe or just reach out. GO TO SLEEP DOT com slash hang up you can email us at hang up at sleep dot com visiting Cunningham thank you so much great having. Thank you. Always good to be here for Vincent and for Joel Anderson I'm Josh Levin Remembers Almost Eighty and thanks for listening.
AT#715 - Travel to Penang Malaysia
"Bags back on the road. And read it's. Real. Fast Board. Traveler seven hundred and fifteen today the mature traveler talks about food and temples and markets, hikes and beaches and more food as we go to. Penang. Malaysia. Welcome to the amateur traveler. I'm your host Chris Christensen. Let's talk about paying. I'd like to welcome the show ruth from Vancouver and that's not the one in Canada but the one in Washington and that's the state of Washington. DC. WHO's come to talk to us about Penang? Malaysia Ruth Welcome to the show. Thank you. Glad to be here and some of you met ruth. If you traveled a with me to Morocco ruth was one of the people on that trip and we're friends from long before that and you have spent the last. Three years up until the coronavirus down in southeast. Asia's that have I got. The timing writer was longer than Well, we had three years in Singapore. And then we were into our just pass our first year in Penang when the covert virus and I actually was here in the states and got stranded here as the movement control order went into effect inning and I wasn't able to get back into the country. So we're now home back in the state of Washington and Yeah. But Penang was our home for about a year. Will, and when we get to the point where we can, why should someone go to Penang? Penang is just a very interesting piece of as. You have three distinct people ethnicities who make up panning opening is one of the thirteen states of Malaysia. It's the second smallest. It's the only one that has a island plus mainland components, and the island is the part that we are familiar with. That's where we lived. We lived in Penang Island Penang. Island. Has Like I say three different distinct groups. There's the Chinese, which are about fifty percent, which is more than the most of Malaysia, your Chinese percentage, and then you have forty percent Malay- and about nine percent of the Indians who are mostly Tamil speakers so there from southern. Yup and then we have the expert groups and in particular, there's one large group of experts that now reside in Penang as a result of Malaysia's M. M.. Two H. Program, which is Malaysia my second home. So quite a few people have actually retired they've made it their permanent home. So it's a very eclectic group of different ethnicities and different cultures and they do not intermixed very much. So you really do have these distinct. And distinct foods and distinct ways of living and languages, and you can do it all in a very small space and people have been to Singapore Penang. It's about the third of the size of Singapore. And only has about fifteen percent of the population of Singapore's on the island about seven hundred thousand people that makes it much more spread out. You're not just in these big crowds of people and yet you're experiencing the same kind of cultural mixing and interaction that you might get in Singapore. I like to think of Penang sort of like Singapore before Lee Kuan Yew came in and modernized and sanitized. Everything, so Penang gives you that old feel I think of what Singapore would have been like. Before everything was cleaned up and so and not to say that it's dangerous or unhealthy to be there but you just get that kind of older. Feel you have people cook it on the streets for food and things like that. So the I highly recommend going just because it's different than a lot of other places you might go in Asia will in terms of Malaysia we're on or just off of the mainland portion of Malaysia in the. West Coast in the north. So we on cow before we're south of that which is way up by the border with Thailand and then we`re Two thirds the distance from Kuala Lumpur up to the type border. Yes yes. Like you say we're to the west of the mainland and very close actually up. I think there's only one one state may be two that are above pinning on the mainland before you get to. Thailand. So it is still pretty close to time. There is some influence of Thai Culture Thai food. In. What is in Penang Yeah I? Think you're forty miles from Thailand. yes. Yeah and what's interesting about pinning to is, and we'll talk about this a little bit more but you came and visited us when we were in Singapore and we went to the parental museum to remember that in singer. So Penang is one of three places in that Malaysian Singaporean area that has Parana Akin Chinese or also called the Straits Chinese also called the bubble Nokia's so they are located in Penang Malacca and in. Singapore. So I've actually been to all three places. I've been to the museums in each of those places and it's a fascinating culture. People from that culture came from China from mainland. China many years ago. treaters remember correctly yet and they came in and adopted many of the Malay Practices and cultures, and some of the foods and sort of turn them into their own. They were usually very very wealthy and their homes were extravagant and their furniture was lavish and carved, and they also incorporated some of the colonialism of the British. So they had fancy dinner ware and fancy glasses and mirrors and their homes were just beautiful and in Penang you can go onto Church Street, which is down in Georgetown and there is a Paranthan Museum there for Twenty Ringgit. which is almost nothing that's four ringgit to a dollar. So it's five dollars you can go in and get a tour of the product museum there, and it's fascinating. It was owned actually by a gangster. A Chinese gangster and his family I and It's now part of the state I believe as a museum and they do try to preserve this product can culture because it is only really in these three distinct places. So that's just kind of fun a fun little side piece if he wants to go explore more about the Perot nickens and the people that recalled the Babas where the men and the known where the women. So they had distinct dress and you can see some of that in this museum as well as their furniture and the highly beaded shoes that the women wore and it's just it's very interesting culture. Well I think we've already jumped into my next question is what should we do when we're in in? Pinning? We've started Church Street. Yes. So there's several different areas on Penang Island like I say, it's not really that big. It's only about a third of the sizes, Singaporean cover it in about a week I. think he would be able to see most of what's there at least what would be for most people interesting to see like I say the British were there a mentioned that just a little bit there in regard to the Parana can culture they came in the late seventeen hundreds and built a fort there's actually a fort called Fort Cornwallis it's on the. East I always have to get my east and West. Side of the. East side of the island. About right. About Georgetown. If you just go east to the water, it sits on an area called the esplanade. And, that's an interesting just old piece of history there. It's apparently the oldest fort that is in existence in Malaysia right now and it was never really used. kind of protection it was more part of the British east India Company and just a place where they kinda monitored trade that came in and out, and you can go visit that nearby that which is another little piece you can take in there is the Jubilee Clock Tower which was built to commemorate Queen. Victoria's jubilee year. And if I correctly it's sixty feet tall one foot for each of her jubilee year. And so that's That's something to kind of just walk past. Probably we should go back to maybe one step and talk about how to get around on the island because that will be important. When we talk about things to go see when you arrive in Penang, you'll fly into the airport, which is in the southern half of the island. It's out kind of in the industrial area and there are some old cam pons or farming areas out in that area as well but you'll fly into the airport once it gets open and allows people to come in. For International Travel and the best thing to do is just go to the taxi counter and get a taxi and that will take you to wherever your hotel will be at the time generally speaking I would not recommend taking taxis on the island because they're very expensive but from the airport, that's probably your best bet it's about forty four ringgit. To. Go to most places and that would be about eleven dollars us. So then you can get to your place but then outside of that, there's a great app you can download on your phone that's called Grab Taxi Art B. And US put grab on your phone and you can get a grab taxi from most places. If you're kind of remote Mitt would be a little harder. But if you're in anywhere in the area of Georgetown or Gurney drive, which is another big area we'll talk about you'll be able to definitely get a grab taxi to just about anywhere in L. Cost you about five to ten ringgit so it's going to be very inexpensive. And that's one way to get around other ways. If you're in Georgetown proper, you can walk just about anywhere pretty easily I would. Recommend a very good pair of walking shoes before you had to paying. It's always hot. It's always humid though sandals that work great in the United States to go to the beach and take your hike along the beach are not going to work in Penang you will get blisters you definitely will get. So just that humidity is very high in. Somebody who lived in Singapore for three years? Yes. Okay. So I had very few shoes that I brought from the that did not cause problems. I had one really nice pair of sandals that never got blistering and then the rest of the time I wore. A. Pair of Nike Tennis Shoes and Stock. The question of the best time of year to go to. It's always going to be warm. I assume it's going to be wetter in some time periods of others. Yes. Yes. You will see more rain as you get into what we would consider the cooler months here in the US. So Maybe. November December January you're going to get a bit more rain but generally speaking when it rains it rains really hard and then it lets up so you might have rain for about fifteen, twenty thirty minutes, and then it'll let up does that make it a better time of year to go with their some relief from the heat or or not? Not necessarily don't I think coming from a place where you don't have heat humidity, it's always gonNa feel terrible get through. My parents had asked us the same thing when we lived there, they said. What's a better cooler time to come I said there isn't one. There just isn't one we got quite used to the heat and the humidity to us. It didn't seem bad a lot of the times, but for most people are just going to come in arrive there, it's going to be very hot very humid. At, any time of the year. So again, really good pair of walking shoes that's going to serve you well to get around and I always recommend that people wear this kind of a little side note. Black shorts or dark colored. Because you're going to be sweating. and. If you. Sweat. and You got light colored pair of shorts on and people are going to. Notice that you're really sweating in some places you may not want them to see that you're sweating. So I always remind people wear something like dark black or something that doesn't change color if it gets wet from sweat so and you'll just be a little more comfortable wandering around. Back to getting around so walking and then there are some bicycle rental on the street type bike rental things that you can read about. When you look at, it tells you an APP you can get on your phone, and then you can check the bike in and out. Then there's one other way that we've used a couple of times when we lived in Penang and that was what they call. So Car S. O. and then C. A. R. Socar again, it's an APP. You can get on your phone and you can actually rent these cars that are placed around. The island in different places and it's kind of Nice. Especially, if you want to try and go across the island to the West Coast, that's a great way to do it or you can also hire a driver go online look up people in Penang that would hire themselves out as drivers, and you can get somebody to drive you around that way too, and that's not very expensive this well, and when you say across the island I'm looking at the map and it's something like fifteen miles tall and and ten miles across some somewhere in that range. So not just. Hours to get across. No. No, it would take you know maybe half an hour depending upon traffic. The problem is there isn't really a direct route from from across. You have to go either down South and backup or up north and back down. So it does take maybe half an hour. These are small. Often two lane roads that are taking you around. So you're not going to get there real quickly, but you can get a car driver whatever, and we'll talk about more why you might WanNa. Go to the West later, but we can get back to Georgetown a bit. So Georgetown was named a UNESCO World Heritage Site in two thousand eight. and. So as far as things to see, we talked about Fort Cornwallis and then the clock tower, and then if you continue to head, West, we should just say before we leave from Cornwallis. Yes. In answer to the question that some of the readers have that is that Cornwallis the Cornwallis who surrendered town George Washington at the end of the revolutionary war, we're talking about the same time period that this was built it was named after somebody who we don't name A. The. Same. Day. British must've been proud of him for some reason. So. So we'RE GONNA head over into Georgetown and it's pretty simple walk not very far. You'll get onto beach street right after you've been over in that area and Beach Street we'll take you into Georgetown. Now wherever you decide to stay, you could stay in the heart of Georgetown if you want or if you'd rather be a little less around people you can stay. Up North in an area called to Frankie which is right on the beach. There are some nice resorts up there. That's very ex-pat area the island but staying down in Georgetown is kind of Nice 'cause you can just leave from your hotel. Go Wander around Georgetown on Beach Street that's one of the main east to West streets through there you'll come across different little. Museums. Some of them are very funky. There's one called the wonder food museum food I wonder if that's food or now Penang and Singapore and areas in this area of the world are very much into food and their food culture it's huge. It's a giant piece of their lives and this museum has giant sized examples of the different foods. So one of the food. You might come across. Later we'll talk about food. Later, it'd be a giant bowl of Penang locks, and so it's literally five six feet across this bowl and about three or four feet high, and they've made these little replicas of these foods up inside this museum. You can wander round look at these things and take pictures with them and stuff like that because that's The answer, the question of who would want to do that take pictures of themselves with Jack Food is my wife and my daughter. Lots of people. Fun running thing on our trips and something we would have been able to do head. We visited you in Penang. It had this not a whole happen but. Yeah. And it's kind of a fun little thing and then there's other ones like the little backwards museum. There's a teddy bear museum. We there the backwards museum. I have not been into it. I've seen signs for it, and then there's the ones where you can go in and you take the picture where it looks like you're like standing on the cloud or those types of. while. That are sort of touristy kind of things but I have. Aimed at the instagram generation that are. Popular yes exactly. So you can have your fill of those kinds of things. The other thing that's very much a piece of Georgetown is the street art. And Whatever hotel or that you would be staying in or even maybe at the airport, you might find a little pamphlet. You can find these little maps that show you where all the street art is in Georgetown and I think there's about thirty different places you can go see it different street art, the one that's the most iconic and the most famous, and you see it on all kinds of t shirts and bags, etc. in Penang is to little kids that are on a bike and. The kids are painted on the wall of the building and the bicycle is real and set in front of it and up against the wall, and that is one of the most iconic pieces of street art like I say that that is impending. That's on Armenian street. Okay and again, you can get a map at any hotel that will have we're all the street artists and it was actually commissioned in I. Think Two thousand and ten after they got that two thousand and eight UNESCO World Heritage. Rating or whatever you call it they set out to kind of spruce up paying a little bit and make it like more of a place people want to come. And one of them was going out and getting a see he was a Lithuanian graffiti artists. Named Ernest I cannot pronounce his last name. It's like Zach correct Vic Zecharia back and he came in and painted most of these and it's very interesting kind of fun to go around and see it. So I would highly recommend you do that. Well. I. Should say that I did get a chance to look up you talked about Backwards Museum I. Think it's The, upside down museum the. Museum added. It's everything is this again for people who like to take their pictures on instagram everything is on the ceiling and get pictures of US standing on the ceiling basically because you put your camera upside down and everything else it looks like you're standing on the ceiling of these rooms and so it's For that crowd with me. So and there are there are a couple of others like that there to which like I have not actually gone to them myself but you can. Go see quite a bit of that kind of stuff. So after you've kind of looked around George Tan, you've poked your head in and out of some of the old Chinese shops you've looked at all the street art, maybe pick yourself up something to eat along the way. It's kind of fun to go into little India and that's also part of Georgetown. It's just sort of melted into that whole Georgetown type area on Penang. Island. And Little India has got some very interesting spice shops you can go into like I said the Indian population is about nine or ten percent of the island. The South Indians, they do not intermix really with people keep their their little group, their little ethnic groups they don't intermingle there's not much intermarriage So these are pretty distinct still. So little India you will get a taste of kind of being in India their spice shops or sorry shops. There's Indian temples which are interesting to go poke around in and there's lovely lovely restaurants and street food of Indian south Indian street food. There's one in particular called. Onda bow one. and S A. B. People refer to it as that is a great place to go get some good south Indian breakfast they have. Italy and Dosa and Chutney knees and just lovely food there, and they make it right out in front you can watch them making your Dosa, which is a very large kind of flat pancake and then they roll it up and you eat that with various knees and that's a great a great kind of breakfast to start your day. If you WANNA go trump around little India, little bitten taken the sights and the smells and and feel like you're in India for a morning. One of my favorite things to do oh I almost forgot Hugh told me. My husband Hugh who you know as well Chris. Knew Him before you knew me, there's a great place just turn think of Logistic Wise. It is to the south of Georgetown called the clan jetties Chinese clan jetties, and it's a bunch of jetties that stick out into the water Panetta being an island is obviously by water and these jetties stick out and they used to be owned by different clans. You need sure and you can wonder out on some of them and there's little shops and at the end, there's a little temple and you can just kind of look at the water it doesn't take a whole lot of time to go just wander through there, but it is something interesting to see. A little piece of the Chinese part of the island. Male with. Relatively, tourist friendly facing would that be accurate? Okay. Yes. Yes. It's very much for tourists to go wander through there. Yeah and across the street from that is a very nice food court to eat in food courts are all over the island of Penang, and like I said, we'll talk about food a little bit later because that's a big big piece of their culture but there is a nice food straight across the street from clan jetties. To eat at. In more of the Chinese part of the culture of the island there is a huge Chinese temple called Keck luck see. And that is kind of located on I would say really close to the middle of the island ferry large Chinese Buddhist temple largest in all of Malaysia apparently, they just keep building onto it. And? It's located in an area of the island called Ir Tom Ir means water in Malay-. And I'm not sure what Tom Means but that there's a big reservoir right near this temple as well and that is worth a half a day just to go kind of wander through this temple and look at the different areas that are in it. There's a little pagoda you can climb up to the top of and then you can take. A very short little kind of tram ride up to where they've built this new piece of it, which has this giant goddess statue. You get a very nice few of Penang Island in and the water and looking across to the mainland from up at that temple as well. So up in the temple, we moved to the islands were up in the hills. Yes sorry we have. We've moved to the middle of the island with the IRA Tom Dam and this cat clock temple and. Tom By the way means Blackwater Blackwater. Okay. Have known that Itam is black so. I. Out So. But yes, IRA TOM is up there. That's like I said an interesting piece to go see also see the rest of the island it seems like from the pictures I've seen. Even more even better view of the island. But. That is one place where you can see out across the island and it's a lovely view I should say. Talk, about the island in its connection to the mainland at this point because when you're up there looking out across the island, you're gonNA look out toward the mainland you're gonNA see two bridges for a long time. There was only one bridge and they call that bridge the first bridge. So when you refer to carry on Pinning Island, you refer by bridges the first bridge was there for many many years i. don't know exactly when it was first built I probably could've looked that up but I didn't And that is just always been known as the Penang Bridge the first bridge the second bridge has a full. Called the Sultan Abdul Halim. Design Shah Bridge. And was built I want to say maybe ten years ago. Okay. Maybe longer than that. Maybe fifteen years ago two, thousand eight. When they started so much when they finished. Okay. Yeah. So it's been a little while but they did finally get that second one put in very, very long bridge. You used to ride over that every day it's eighteen to twenty kilometers across. So but you will see those when you're standing up. Haya on a kick lock. See when you're up at the very top of that temple, you can look out and you'll see those two bridges and so when you hear people talking about the first bridge or the second bridge, kind of have a better idea of of what they're talking about them when you're standing up there from Ira Tom and the Catholic see temple I would encourage people to next go take in were kind of go back to George Town A. Little Bit, but not completely people on the island have these markets wet markets we call him reason they call him wet is because the floor is often wet when they clean up and so it's places you can go and purchase meats or seafood or vegetables, and sometimes some cooked food is there as well. Different little snacks and things like that, and you'll find these markets everywhere on the island we lived at Gurney drive area of the island, which is north of Georgetown's about a twenty minute walk North out of Georgetown. We had a very nice when they're called the Pulau Tikos market. Palau His island and I think tikos was mouse. So I think it was a mouse island and we had a really nice market that you can go wander around I talk about this just because it gives you a way to go in and see the regular just normal people doing their morning shopping or doing their morning breakfast getting their copay, which is coffee or getting a plate of noodles for breakfast or getting some little Indian you know flat breads or something like that. But just a great way to just go kinda see the regular population out doing their Morning routine and the food is great and it'll cost you less than two or three dollars to get your whole breakfast and it's it's really wonderful and so I would highly recommend that there's like I say the Pulau market. If you head down into Georgetown, there's market called the Chow Rasta market, and that is another really nice one in the to frank area, which is north of the on the island I talked about you could stay up there. If you wanted near the beaches, there's a huge night market up there and there are several daytime markets in that area as well, and all of these things you can readily Google for. We'll have loose of the in the show notes as well. Yeah. Where you know you can head to some of these markets and try out some of the different local foods or just kind of wander around and see what people are doing for their regular shopping. So I wanted to throw that in there before I forgot about it and I see them called markets and I sometimes also see them cold hawker stalls hucker centers as they would be in Singapore. Bit of difference a Hawker, centre would be dedicated particularly to food gotTa and you would go there to eat whereas a wet market would be things to eat. Yes. But more of you're going to buy your fresh chicken I mean they're literally butchering the chicken there that morning. Yeah he kinda see the chickens over in their cages and you're like, well here your day is not going to be a good one today. And they're squeezing coconut milk. You know I mean, it's just interesting but you can also buy food to eat in Pulau decrease market. There's an Indian gentleman who sells rotea Miam- I can't remember I'm losing the name of what it was but these little coconut like pancake things and they are so good and he's always there in the poetic use market in the morning selling that. So and then Chuck Cock which is a stir fry type rice cake thing you can get that in these markets in the morning and but there's just lots to see more than just a Hawker Centre or Hawker Centre will be more for just eating food. Then I think next after you've seen Georgetown, you've seen some markets you've gone to the kept Lexi Temple I would recommend taking a day because of the heat and the humidity you're going to be tired more so than you would be at home and you're GonNa WanNa do most of what you WanNa do in the morning try and get things done and then you probably want to go and hide From heat when it gets the worst, which is the afternoon, and then maybe go back out in the evening and do some stuff but you'll probably WANNA, go inputs feet up and just take a rest in the afternoon. So you'll be spreading a lot of this stuff out. You're not going to be doing it all in one day but I would recommend taking a day to go to Penang Hill. And Penang. Hill is the highest point on the island and it's very popular tourist place touristy just among the people in Penang and touristy among people in Malaysia the blazing population to go and see because it's a spectacular piece of Penang Island and it has a little train that goes up and down a food niculae train. So it's done by gravity and a cable kind of like when you go to Hong Kong and they have that funicular train that you can go up to the top Victoria. Help. So. This similar. This I the train was I put on Pinning Hill in the nineteen twenties. And recently, in can't remember it was like two thousand ten. Every okay. They've redid the train. The Hill is about eight hundred and eighty three meters high about twenty, seven, hundred feet. You can do several ways of getting up and down at Hugh and I like to hike. In fact when we lived there, I had several hiking groups that I would hike the hill with and very fun. It's about a five meter hike, but it is pretty much straight uphill straight up at eight, hundred, eighty years. So it's GonNa. Take you depending upon your physical conditioning and take into account. You're now in a really hot climate, it'll take you probably three hours. To go from the base to the top and the way that you would get there as you would get a grab a Gr- taxi and you would tell them, you want to be taken to the lower station Okay Penang, Hill lower station and they will take you there and if you want to hike there several different hikes you can do you can go up the heritage trail which is a eleven hundred steps I think I feel the Middle Station And then you go on some trails that get you all the way to the top, or there's a couple other ways to get up as well, and if you google, you can find a couple other trail routes to get up there. Most of the time if you just keep heading straight up, you're going to end up at the top. There is some hiking groups and sometimes you can see a group standing around and they're very friendly. You could just go up. To one and say, Hey, can I join you? Are you hiking up to the top and they're happy to have people come usually join them as you hike up to the top, you'll go past farms. So we've seen OKRA GROWING WE'VE Seen Passion Fruit Bananas, things like that. You'll just hike along and see these different things on the trails are all very well maintained their asphalted you just have to watch for motorbikes sutter reading up on down on them as well. And when you get to the top, so you can hike to the top and you can also take the train to the top the train to the top and back will cost you thirty ringgit. The train just one way half of that fifteen ringgit I recommend if you're going to hike to the top and you want to take the train down, which is definitely recommended because it is very steep coming back down. That you buy your ticket at the bottom before you head up. Then, you don't have to worry about doing it once you get to the top. So at that lower station where you're going to have the grab take you. There is a big ticket counter and you just go up to it and tell them I just want to one way back down or a hey, I want up and down. And you pay for your ticket there, and then you will do whatever when you want to do either hike up if you're going to hike up I recommend that you take plenty of water. A little bit of snacks. And a change of clothing. Okay you get to the top you are going to be drenched in sweat. You will be super super sweaty and coming back down on the train. It's kind of Nice to have fresh clothes on 'cause you're stuffed in the train with a whole bunch of other people. Feel more comfortable and it's air conditioned inside that. Train car you're going to be cold too. 'cause you're not going to dry out real fast. So take your water, take your extra set of clothes take a few snacks and Sunscreens, sunhats sunglasses, and you should be good to go to hike up. You're just going to ride the train up. Don't worry just go up when you do get to the top whichever way you decide to get there. There's some great views. There's a viewing platform you can go stand out on, and if the day is clear, you can really see all the way down all over Penang, island all the way across to the mainland. It's just beautiful. We spoke earlier about what time of year to go. There is one time of year I would recommend you go and you could you could check out to see although I don't know if you could predict enough in advance they often have what's called Hayes. And that's from the burden of. Yep the fields out in Indonesia and out in Sumatra and that area of Malaysia and when that's happening, you don't get any good views because it and it's not very healthy either the air is really bad. So that's usually like in the late summer early fall. Okay. When we were in Singapore, we never experienced any bad hayes but the first year we were in Penang it was terrible for about four or five weeks six maybe even eight weeks so. That is a time of year I would not recommend you go. You just won't get any views when you do some of these things in the air, it's just awful. People are staying inside they're not. Doing. Things really is bad for your health. Well, we didn't mention that were fairly near Sinatra, which we've also done shows on a you know you're only mountain hundred, two, hundred, fifty miles from Sumatra today. And that's where you're going to get some of that that haze and smoke from they're trying to work with the countries to stop that from shirt. It's hasn't happened. So now you said a couple of things in we're talking about going up to Penang Hill about talking to hiking groups and talking to the grab taxi person talking to the ticket person how much am I going to find? English, in use in Penang since my Malay- is non-existent. English is everywhere. If you've been to Singapore it's very similar. Okay. It's going to be very rare that you won't be able to communicate very well, and where you're gonna find that is going to be in some of your Hawker Centers. Some of the people who are manning those centers sometimes don't speak rogue. English or if you do go up and talk to some of these hiking groups, you may find some that don't speak English but I've never found. It to be a big problem at all I had a hiking group where a couple of the gals you could tell their English wasn't quite as good but several people had been. In the UK and lived there for a while and their English was perfect. Yeah you'RE GONNA have pretty easy access to people that speak English it was a British colony until nineteen fifty seven. So English was taught in the schools and still is so most people do have pretty good grasp of it. Road and the Hawker Centre point. Yeah wasn't that problem and I also do things like find a picture and put it on my phone and you can show them a picture of something you might want to eat and they can direct you to the right place to find that. So up at the top of Penang Hill. Now that we've gotten their whichever way we've decided if we've decided to hike or if we decided to take the the train up again, you can see these great views assuming you're on a day. That's clear. It'll be beautiful views, and then there's a lovely place you can go to get something to eat our favorite thing to do after we've hiked up the hill to give ourselves a little reward a little treat, and we'll start talking about some of the food. One of the things I like to get is what's called doll. and that's a sweet IC- dessert I suppose you might call it. It's ice with coconut milk on it with red beans and these green little strings of. Some kind of carbohydrate like rice flour that they've congealed and some palm sugar, which is also called got Laka. goulet sugar. Malacca is Milwaukee. Area and this is palm sugar and it's thick. It's. Kind of like if you took brown sugar and melted it. and. Poured it over it as well and so when you mix, then you take this bowl of this, you get this bowl with all this in it you mix it all up and then you eat it and it's really good. It sounds kind of strange. The first few times I saw it on my trick. Yeah. The first times I started I was like I'm not eating that, but it is really good and one of the best ones that. I think is on the island is up at the top of Pinning Hill. It costs about nine ringgit to get a big bowl of it, and so it's actually very economical is well, he'll always likes get what we call mango ice up at the top of the hill and that's ice with flavored with mango and it has mango chunks on it and some mango ice cream. It's very fancy has cost a little more. It's about thirteen ring it. So, but we Joy that. Those Green I beam like a worm like things on. Our Rice Flour Jelly, and those words don't seem to go together to me but that's what that is. Yes, okay and it's it's very good. I. Just I love the coconut with the sugar and the ice and it's so cooling and you're so hot there. So it's it's a lovely thing to eat the one thing about being at the top of Penang. Hill to is it is a few degrees cooler. You will actually notice that when you're at the top that it is a bit cooler than when you're down in the mainland or the flatlands I should say of the island it is kind of Nice to respite from the heat, which was part of why they put the train on originally was to allow people to get up there to be in that cooler weather. So the British, always liked to find places that were cooler to go in and hang our. That was part of why that all happened in the first place so So after you've seen Penang Hill that's going to kind of take a day for you to get up there you'll probably go back arrests and then go out and find something to eat. Later we'll talk a little bit about another pretty cool place to go on the island, which is now we're going to head north of Penang Hill. We're going to head up to that area of two Ranji where I said earlier you might want to stay if you wanted to be maybe near a beach, the problem with beaches on Penang, island is none of the water is very clean around the island there still sewage being put out into the water. So it's not necessarily a great place to ever go swimming. You will at times smell this smell not necessarily up there and about to Frankie but down longer drive in some of those areas you can smell the sewage some days out there. So it is like I say not necessarily good for swimming and such, but it is pretty along there and you can get a good view out to sunrises. There's just kind of even just north. Out to the ocean and it's quite pretty. And so those are areas to stay, but if you continue on. West of bought for you will come to an area of the island that has what is called the National Park. Area Island, and there's some great hiking up in that areas. Well, if you want to I, mean lot of times, people don't think about those kind of things being available in some of these areas of Asia but this is a beautiful area to be able to go hike. You hike through kind of a jungle and you get out to a beach and when you go to the National Park area again, you can get a grab car up there. The problem is sometimes it's hard to get a grabbed come back because you you have to find. A driver that's up in that area. So one thing you can do is you can either take like the. So car up there like talked about earlier or you can you talk to your driver and say, Hey, I, think we're going to be done about this time. Would you come back and get us or again hire car for the day but I have found a couple of times? I've actually used grab on the island and got stuck off in an area where there were crab cars around and I've had to go figure my way back. Home. But just to keep that in mind up in that area because you're getting a little more out of the touristy stuff. But it is a lovely place to go before you would head out on your hike. There are little booths around the entrance in the parking lot to the National Park area that are advertising boat rides, and you would definitely want to talk with one of those. If you WANNA, get this part of the trip you would want to talk to one of those guys and say, Hey, I'm going to hike out. Turtle Beach which. Is the the Nice beach to go to out there. It's a pretty easy walk and I'm going to be done I think about this time it's GonNa take you two to three hours probably maybe a little longer just you know set up about four hours out hey, we're going to be done and can you come pick us up from the beach at this time and they have these long boats and they'll come out and? They're Nice. They're covered. So you not sitting in the sun when you come back and I think it's about ten ringgit a person well, and they will yeah they'll pick you up out there at the beach and bring you back to the National Park Parking Lot. Now, you can hike back to it's not a problem to do that if you don't want to try and arrange this boat ride, but it is kind of fun. To to kind of get come back on the water afterwards I think it's about ten ringgit a person but you usually you'll have a group of several people. It might cost you a little bit more if it's just two or three of the on the boat, but it's not going to be very expensive to come back in the boat takes about fifteen twenty minutes to hike out there's can take you hour and a half. or or a little more even. Depending upon how fast you're going in the heat. But once you get out to turtle beach before you go I should say people don't probably wouldn't know this at the National Park Parking Lot. There is also a little like restaurants area a little counter area and you have to sign in there before you head out on the hike she just right in your name and and Tell Them You know what time your birthday and all the stuff and you head out I think they'd just trying to keep track of WHO's out there and who's But. They don't do anything when you come back. So I haven't figured out exactly ALF behind why we're signing into this book but we've done this hike several times and you hike out to Turtle Beach. There's little signs along the way it's pretty well. Warren Pat you kind of figure how to get there and if you feel like you're getting lost, there's lots of people usually you can kind of say, Hey, am I still in the right direction and once you get there there's this little like turtle conservation. It's kind of fun. They got a little baby little holes and some bigger turtles and you can look at that and there's a big sign that says, Turtle Beach on it and you can take your picture it back to the instagram crowd stuff take your picture by the sign you can sit on the beach is a. Beach the sand is very white. Me Can wait around the water a little bit. It's it's not like a safe for swimming and then the boat if you've arranged about, we'll come pick you up off the beach and take you back or if you want you just hike back. And we've done both ways. It's just sort of a fun thing to do that. You wouldn't normally expect you could do. Maybe, if you were in a country like this so. It's just a an extra fund piece we've found there's quite a lot of hiking and things to see like that on Penang Island another. Just came to me. I hadn't put this down to talk about but another place where it's really kind of fun to hike around and just walk if you want just to get a little exercise is the Botanic Gardens in Penang and those are not too far from Gurney drive you head inland from Gurney drive and we used to be able to bicycle to them because we lived on. Gurney drive and it was about a ten fifteen minute bike ride. Over to the Botanic Garden, a longer need drive their bicycles that you can rent. So you did decide you wanted to suck said before Greenie, drives about a twenty minute walk from. George town. And you could take a bike from there and head over to the Botanic Gardens. There's some hiking paths. There's very pretty. Doesn't cost anything and you could wander around for a little bit and just kind of taken some of the natural flora of the area. Some of the things are labeled. So you could see what type of tree is, but that's just a very another little pretty pretty way to get out and maybe move your feet a little bit. If you need that I called back to Gurney drive, that's a huge area of Penang, it's very touristy. It would be equated I think to Orchard Road in Singapore to big malls we actually when we lived there lived. Above. One of the balls on Gurney drive CRA lifting Gurney Paragon, and there's the Paragon Mall and there's the Plaza Gurney Plaza Mall this would be like stepping into the United States could be. McDonald's and starbucks and TGI Fridays and inside the mall your stores like Oh just I can't even think of any right now unfortunately. Some of your. Stores that you would come across in the United States like. Shoes shops, and. Nike and there's some big department stores in there that are not in the United States but there are big department stores. And there's what we call popular bookstore, which is a chain of bookstores in Malaysia and Singapore. So, you can see those in there there's movie theaters there's bookshops on the fifth floor in Gurney Paragon. Mall is a very nice food court that I recommend to people going to lots of different choices of food if you're looking for a way to get out of the heat and sitting in air conditioned food court to very nice when there and lots of more local options, not just the Saburo. This is all local the most are. Yeah. Yeah. So and and that's just a good segue going into food. There is like I said I have said a couple of times a huge food culture in this country very similar to Singapore. If you've been there except this is not all sanitized and beautiful and put into these fancy little hawker centers like Singapore has done this more spread out a little more lax but really good. By lax you're not saying unsafe now you're just saying less. It's not so regulated by the government. You won't be sitting in these really clean fancy. Centers necessarily, but it's not going to be bad either I have truly never gotten sick from eating the street food and I do eat street food both in Singapore or pinning I have not gotten sick ever. So and the water is very safe to drink out of the taps in your hotels and places like that. I have never had an issue. So you know unless you really really sensitive. To things like that. I think he'd be. Okay. So I'll talk a little bit about some of the foods that you must try while you're there because you won't get them in re probably any other place except maybe Singapore but even then the food in Penang is different to some extent than what you're going to see in Singapore similar. But different one of them is what we call Penang LACSA. And pinning locks is a soup. A noodle soup is the best way to describe the base of the soup is mackerel. Is Mackerel breath and little chunks of Mackerel, and then they put this soup with these big thick noodles in it. So they'll put the noodles in the bowl and they'll put some garnishes on top of the soup pieces of pineapple sometimes little slices of Lily Bud and and some other little herbs, and then they pour the broth and the macro over the top of it, and then give you a little spoonful of some sauce spicy sauce that you can dump into it if you want and the best place to get Penang Lacsa is going to be in that Ira Tom area that we talked about earlier near Catwalk OCCC. And that is known for having the Best Penang locks. On the island that whole area there is one particular place you can go to that's kind of alturas out I would go in just a little simple shop. Bernie were around and just ask if they have Pinang Luxa and get your opinion locks. So there, it'll be different from the LUXA that you might get in Singapore is Singapore's Coconut milk and there isn't coconut milk in a Tree Pinang. It's very good. It's a little bit Kinda Sour, wishy and fishy. If you don't like fish, she probably wouldn't like it but I think it's quite good and then there's the national dish of Malaysia, which is Nazi lamach Nasi means rice lamach fatty. So the reason they call it fatty rice is because it's rice cooked with coconut milk and that's doesn't sound very interesting in itself and it wouldn't be except that they add things to that. So you'll get your Nasi lamach, your fatty rice with different editions usually. Some symbol symbol is a fiery hot red colored accompaniment or SAAS. It's not really a Saas because it's usually pretty thick, but it's traditionally Malay- and it's fishy because there is a fish component to it and chilies and some sugar, their Ghulam Laka they add to it and some Tamarin. So it's got all those components together into this fiery sauce and so that always comes with your Nazila mock, and then usually you'll get some Friday anchovies and fried peanuts that come alongside this as well as fried. Egg. and. Some cucumber slices and that's a pretty good representation of Osceola mock and -cational. You'll get chicken served with it as well. But the best Nasi lamach on the island in my opinion and in a lot of people's opinion. Is Down On. Beach Street in Georgetown at Ali Nazi. Lamach. L. I.. And it's very cheap. You can get a little banana leaf to wrap packet of Nasi mock for one point eight ringgit. So almost nothing. Twenty cents or something like that. Twenty fives. Yeah. No more than that. About fifty cents fifty cents. Yeah and it's I usually get to because it's it's it's a pretty small kind of dial back version and NAS Lamach, but it had they have different ones you can order you can get. The rice with the sauce and a piece of egg or the rice and the sauce and some squid or the rice in the sauce and some little dried fish. So it's kind of not quite the plate that you might get at another place, but it's very inexpensive and it is really good and the piece that makes it so good is how they make their rice and how they make their sambhal sauce and so that's a very good example of what it should taste like. So if you WANNA, get a very authentic, very good very inexpensive. Bit of Nasi Lamar that's the place to go, and then we'll move on to a different type of food, which is what we call charcoal Tayo. And Chuck quit Tayo is fried noodles tossed in a very hot walk with different sauce ingredients usually some egg and maybe some shrimp or chicken will be thrown in there as well and they do it over the best. So to speak from people, there is done over a charcoal fire so like in the old days. So if you can find a place that does it over a charcoal fire, it's excellent. Answer is one that we used to go to on new lane. So it was called the new Lane Hawker area or new Lane Street food area, and that's down in the middle of George Town. It's very close to the Gen hotel, which is where HP to put this up. Can Walk. They're very quickly five, ten minute walk and the only thing to know about new lane street food is I. Believe they're closed on Wednesdays don't triangle there on Wednesday but a great place to go. There's all kinds of street food there but you'll have to wait in line to get your charge tail, but it is worth the wait to get it there. It's very good. It's very authentic nice hot noodle soup and that's GonNa cost you trying to think I think that was around eight or nine ringgit. To get the and it's different prices, how many eggs if lot to eggs one egg prices all change. If you want duck eggs versus chicken eggs, I would highly recommend the duck egg version. It's very good and be about nine ten ringgit for that. We already talked about the doll which I like at the top of the hill people will tell you about Tia Chow Chendrol in downtown Georgetown I would skip that that's always touted as the best friend on the island but it is not in my opinion and many locals feel the same way it's more kind of a touristy thing now. But the best all get it at the top of Penang Hill or down where we talked about where to get the Penang Lacson Ir Tom There's some good in that area to. Another place to go really good to try out while you're there you're gonNA have lots of time to eat is Nazi Kandahar. So Nazi Kandarr is, do you remember when you came to Singapore? We went to that place. We ordered the different foods you stood in line and you got your rice and then they put different stuff on the. So Nazi candor is very similar. Nazi, Candar is often run by the Indian population. You'll see them as the ones that are operating these stalls or stands. There's one place down in the George. Well, there's lots of places in the Georgetown area in that little India area of. Penang island of for Nasi Candar. Again, you can google it many people like place called line clear L. I n. e. and then clear there's also Hamadeh. There's Rafi Rafi is over right where we used to live longer need drive all these places you can go and for ten fifteen ring it and there's even a place up on that Gurney Paragon food court there's a place in their even you can get some Nasi Candar. And you'll get a plate of rice. When you first step up to the counter, they'll give you some rice on a plate and then you kinda point at these different curry dishes or pieces of fried chicken or whatever they want, and they added to your plate. And then they'll put extra sauce. If you say I want more more the curry sauce, they'll put it all over it, and then you go and you check out and the guy kind of looks at what you have and it gives you a price and I'm sure he gives tourists a higher price. Never. Worry about those sort of things that I figure. The prices are usually low enough that I don't tourist. It's not a problem but usually you'll talk to your friends and they'll back you had to pay that much. By Chinese friends will be like you pay all my. Thought they did. So in any case, it's not going to be very much money. It's going to be a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, ringgit it probably for what you get and that's going to be around three to four dollars. You're going to get a really big plate of food with lots of different things on it and it's worthwhile to just for the fun. Often you'll be picking things you might not even know what they are. This is going to be a place for the person may not be able to tell you much more than if you say what is it they might give chicken or what is that fish you know, but you don't like what kind of fish or how they cooked fish. Different things like that you will get kind of a surprise meal probably, but it will probably also be very good and tasty. One thing you might want to always check out to that. When you go to some of these places is what the heat level of some of the things are. Might be able to if it's not too crowded, which unfortunately, most of the time these places have quite a lot of people you could say, Hey, can I just try a little bit of that to see how spicy is, but you will find that model food true food is very spicy. Not The Chinese food. If you go to a Chinese restaurant in Malaysia that will not be spicy 'cause most of the Chinese population do not like extra spice. But if you go to any of these nasty khanlar Mandalay food restaurant, it will be spicy and as I recall a lot of the Chinese who are in Malaysia are from southern, China so more like. Cantonese than. Data which would make sense. There's a Han Chinese most of them or if they're from the high non area like Hainanese people. So yeah, and they tend to stick again to their own food and they were always very surprised how much I like the spicy food. My Chinese friend so But I love spicy food and for them most of them don't enjoy it very much so. So that's definitely a place to not miss are the Nasi Kandahar getting a at least one meal at a Nazi Candar place just try that out and enjoy that. So that's kind of sums up most of the food. Oh, one more piece of food I'm sorry. I almost forgot. A big another big piece of food in Malaysia and Singapore and some of that area there is what we call. Quay. And Quay it's K. U. E. H.. R. Little Bites or little snacks, very big and very popular the recipes for these date back years people have been making the same thing over and over for many many years, they're often coconut based rice based a slightly sweet. Some are not some are savory and you can find these at some of the wet markets. There'll be little stands have clay or you can go to certain restaurants on Burma road in the Gurney drive area of the island. There's a place called lie. So L. I. and then E R like. And they have very nice quay we have walked over there many times and gotten some way, and then there's some older places around town to I do not know how to pronounce this one. More like a dessert. It can be but can also be not sweet. Okay. Some of them are savory. Some of them are rolled in a banana leaf l. have like a little shrimp. They caught it PA rum. PA. Is the spice base. Too, much of the Malay- cooking. And they'll have a little room PA with shrimp inside. Rice. Most of them are sweet but some are not yeah and but most of them are and they'll have a coconut like say a coconut milk component with sugar. My favorite is two layers. Rice said is blue and white on the bottom layer, and that has green custard coconut custard layer on top. and. That's my favorite called Quiz Lot. But there's many many try part of this is also what they call Kaya Jam. Kaya Jam is made out of eggs and coconut milk and sugar, and they cook it down. And it's kind of like an apple better but it's a coconut egg butter and it's really good I use eat it out of the George is straight. It's fantastic to put on toasts. They will use it. They'll have their copy their coffee in the morning with a piece of toast with Cayenne butter on it. And It's it's kind of addictive. It's very good. So the the quay like I say you can find them in different markets. You can find them at lighter and then there's a very old quay place called Mo M. O. H. T., E. N. G. Tang. and. Then I. Don't know how they pronounce H. W.. Knowing. Quay pinning its on Tooley street down in. Georgetown. And I've been there a couple times. I'm very good quay and that place very small little place to go in you kind of walk through the back door and you're wondering my in the right place because you're walking through the kitchen. Go in and you're Kinda like, but it's kind of interesting 'cause you can kind of see how they're making them, and then you kinda come into the little reception area and you say you can either buy quay right out of the case there like they have a little display case or you can go sit down order some with some tea or coffee. And and just have a little snack but they're very nice to try I. always tell people at least try a few of them wire in Penang something different that you're not gonna find anywhere else. In fact I don't really think that we have a real equivalent in the US to what the are. We just don't I mean a cookie may be or Something like that, but we really don't have kind of an equivalent to what these are very highly crafted. I mean there's layers to them in different colors and different things they put together and so it's not just a single little like a cookie or something like that. So it's very, very nice to have just your afternoon tea with something like that anything else before we get to our wrap up questions. I don't think so I mean the one other little pieces there is shopping I. Think we've talked about a little bit with smalls, but you know you can do that anywhere so. Fancy about doing that there. So if you decide to go to the west side of the island. And you're there during the months of May. June or July. You will be there during during season. Okay and get the opportunity to try some of the best jury and in that area of the world which comes out of Penang. So. If you like. Or you think that you want to try it and see if you like it. There's no better place to do that than to get to the west side of the island in an area called Balik Pulau, and that's where there's many durian farms and you'd have the opportunity to try to in I have tried in. I do not want to ever try it again. But I did go with my Chinese friends once and we sat at a place over there while they all eight, Durian I eight mile and little snack that I brought with me. They kept trying to persuade me to eat it and I kept saying really really it's better that you enjoy it would just be wasted on me. So you guys keep keep your in an and they had a great time, but it was fun to go see the where they grow them. And it was interesting. So that is a little piece I forgot to throw in earlier but that is an opportunity. You could hire a driver or get a so car and take yourself over to the west side of the island and see that. Clip. Well I. Think you've probably already mentioned it but if I say you're standing at the prettiest spot in paying, were you standing on? What are you looking at? I would be standing at the top of Penang Hill. Day looking out over the whole island to the mainland and the bridges and all it's just beautiful. And one thing that makes you laugh and say only in Penang. All eating some of the things I've learned to eat their. eadie little fried anchovies with the heads and everything still on eating the with those little green strings and the beans only in Penang. Would I have learned to eat things like that? And if you had to summarize playing in just three words, what three words would use. Hot. hiking. and. Food. Excellent our guest again, it's been ruth and ruth. Thanks so much for coming on image traveler and sharing with us your love from Penang. I'm just sorry that I couldn't visit you when you were there. We just didn't get back together in time. Yeah I'm sorry it would have been really fun to have you guys come and I thank you for having me although since I know my wife doesn't like hot weather it perhaps was. Fortunate for her but yes. But we would have had fun having you guys there. So. We're going to keep the community section short because this is a longer episode. Thanks again to the patrons who support the show another way to support the show is through some of the affiliate links. For instance, if you're ordering something on Amazon and go to amateur traveled dot com slash Amazon before you do you pay no more money but amateur traveler gets the cut links for immature traveler amateur traveler, dot com slash affiliates. With that we're going to end this episode of amateur traveller. If you have any questions, send an email to hosted amateur traveler dot com or better yet leave a comment on this episode at Imaging Traveler Dot Com thanks so much for listening. See One Jam the. ME. Baby.
ACS (Part 1): Rick Fox and Jace Hall
"Thanks for listening to the Adam Corolla show on podcast. One. They buzzer booze ace man here. Got a good first-half plan for you. Think deep deep dive into. The James Dean mystery car with a very interesting story, which AJ arms that detective and everything else, I think you'll find it fascinating. I, I'll tell you about Dollar Shave Club quality. They've spent years developing crafting refining everything way more than just razors. Oh boy is so much better than just razors. I have all their stuff I was actually using their deodorant this morning. It's the stick kind. Very nice. Everything is good. Everything works. Everything comes to your home, and you don't have to wait in line for them to unlock the cartridges cartridges in the shark age or anything anymore. So discussing, I think it's LA thing. Anyway, everything you need in the shower and the shave, and the brushing of the teeth. I use to paste. 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How can at home test kit reveal my entire ancestry for the past millennium, but I can't see the price of a new car until at purchasing at Hyundai. We wondered those things too. So we're making all possible with our all new program called shopper assurance with flexible test drives that come to you transparent pricing for convenience streamlined purchase for efficiency and even three day, worry free exchange. The future of car buying is now available in the present. Car buying made easier. It's now possible. Introducing Hyundai shopper assurance. Visit Hyundai USA dot com to see how it works test drives subject to dealer, personnel vehicle villa -bility under the three day, worry free exchange customers who buy or lease a new vehicle from participating dealers exchange it for another new Hyundai within three days. Mild vehicle condition. Restrictions apply. There's a difference between doing yourself and do it for a living at the Home Depot. We get that. And we're hued help froze, get the job done with the products and brands you trust technology to keep your job on track job site, delivery, to save you time at bulk pricing on over four thousand items every day to save you money when you've got a job, we're on the job. The Home Depot. More saving. More doing. From Karol wanna studios in Glendale, California. This is the Adam Corolla show guest today from the g g podcast, Rick Fox and Jay's hall with Gina grad on news and ball Prien on sound vaccine. Now got passed over to beat from press secretary because the press corps, frowns upon multiple uses of the word. Adam Corolla the ad get it. All got to get it on a judgment. On this have the show brought to you by rocket mortgage shave club and simply safe and Castrol as well. Good day, Gina grant Hugh. Where how my phone? Rick Fox partner's coming in talking about all this gaming and all that's going on at a talk with max. Pat, basically, the Super Bowl of gaming was the second most watched program after the Super Bowl really worldwide that's make century start factoring in China and all that kind of stuff, but still nuts pretty soon, start calling the Super Bowl the football. Yes. I it really. I mean the notions gonna fall down the ladder. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, I mean that's I know it sounds like Pro Bowl gate right now. But it is the Super Bowl of the gaming things. Go to take over head Harrity has a these guys are going to get millions of dollars team owners like Rick Fox are going to be multi Jillian airs for owning gaming teams. It's, it's all there. It's all we're showing concussion fuzziness say. Free certainly a former football hotbeds, California. A lot of parents aren't letting their kids play just the town's going to dry up. Well, not only that, but the simulation of violence. So violence is such a strong part of our DNA. It's obviously not acceptable in our civilized, society. There's no jousting or dueling or you know, on guard or my second. So call your seconds at dawn, I swear to God, I think my biggest problem with dueling would be dawn. Yeah, I'd be like for me like we're both gonna take musket pistols, and we'll take ten paces. I'd be like yeah. Okay. And we go back to back and we take ten paces, and we turn, and we exchanged shots of musket balls. That'd be okay. And then they'd be like Scholl. Have my seconds. Visit you at dawn, and I'd go. Ooh, I'm on board on board. The more the all all of it. I like I like the like the knee high pants on the shoes with the buckles. I like the high socks this, this thing, first off, can we get a Cup of Mead and us coffee or whatever some grueling us on up sundown? I'm just I'm not a morning dealer. So. This is going to get you. We love violence, and it's not acceptable. But we shall simulate the violence, and this is how we shall simulate it. All right. I have some clips and some stuff I was thinking about something we haven't visited in a long time. I don't know. I just found this interesting talk into Nate over at the other shop about doing a series about cars and cars that were lost, and we're gonna do some series with the history channel the cars, and the stories and the baba blonde. That's interesting stuff, one of the first ones they wanna do is James, dean's five fifty spider. Porsche Spyder probably retails. I mean, not with his name on it just a five fifty spider in sort of that, trim that he got it in probably about a four million three point five to four million dollar car today. James Dean, bought it like nineteen fifty five. He went and drove it to button, willow, which is not near which is sort of little pass willow springs. I marvel at the two places in the entire San Fernando Valley, where I could buy European hinges and closers, and sliders when I was doing that kind of cabinet building at the time. One call one place with. And this is when it was specialty items stuff. You couldn't get it at Home Depot. One place was called sid Sajid. Places called sid Charney. He's and I was like this. Accumulation of the same name, then the only place you get the custom laminates where force plying far west by which, of course, is just going to be confusion. All the time if you think you're going to sit GNC nets Charney so far west. But it was forest, it's why it's crazy that they're two tracks in this entire area. And one is willow springs and others button willow. But when Ozzy said it was just say, willow then anyway, on the way to willow springs springs will go to button willow and famously James steam wanted to break in his five fifty that he bought out here and I think downtown back when it was real exotic have a Porsche in Los Angeles. And so in order to break in the motor, which is what you'd have to do back in the day and still a little bit in the race car world today, he opted with his mechanic, I think, to drive it to button button willow and down. The grapevine and on the way with the sun going down that cars about three feet off the ground convertible. I mean it comes up to your it's silver. I think the son was like setting and there's some guy driving a big Buick the other direction and they didn't see him and he turned, and he was instantly killed the dual the dawn, and there is I know at noon ish, and there is a. If you go there, it's like a big gas station, supermarket, whatever have cut out pictures of James Dean, whenever they're capitalizing on it anyway. That car when known of as little bastard, or little bastard, before there was a little Wayne, there's a little bastard, and and, and had a number one thirty on it. And he took that car to George barris, who is like the only game in town and car, customizing builder of the batmobile builder of the monkeys mobile builders of all those mobiles and custom paint shop, and blah. Blah, blah James Dean took it to George barris. He told him put a number on it. You know, custom paint a number and write little bastard on the on top of that. It was like on the trunk lid are on the back, so that car became a little bastard, and our little bastard, and it was one thirty and he painted up and then he. Took it, and he got he got killed in it, and also really. There's a crazy video that's weird haunting video where they were doing a PSA with James Dean God. No, I'll tell you what's haunting about it, and max paddock and probably find it is doing this stuff on the fly. So we'll give them a little time but there's a PSA video or James Dean, it's like he's clearly in his trailer. And somebody said, hey, can we just shoot the sing real quick for safe driving, and blah, blah, blah? And the script was watch out there because the person whose life you may save maybe your own and that was the little thing. He switched it up and said, maybe me. Wearily I probably weeks or months before he died. He the script and said drive safely, the life out there. You save maybe me spoken to exist, check. It means something to people. They don't wanna kill James Dean. And I think that was hayme just putting his own little twist on it. And I don't know when, but it couldn't have been twenty years, karma, GAAS did not like that. He was killed by someone you know, just driving Buick, and his a little bastard, and. Barris ended up purchasing the five fifty Porsche for twenty five hundred dollars. The mangled won the mangled one now that car. I mean, the engine and those cars are three hundred grand but that cars, I don't know. I don't know what price you'd put on the James Dean part of it. It'd be one of those ten million dollar vehicles now because, you know, the St. the five fifty has a price of three to four million bucks. Already that minus any James steam, the car from bullet is a Mustang that has a price that's worth nine thousand dollars. But it's four million dollars now because Steve McQueen in bullet so who knows what the four million dollar vehicle could be James? Dean on it. I don't know. He owned it. He he traveled around to two high schools for automotive safety whatever's, how they do that, to take that mangled car and they put it in the parking lot. And they wanted our right everyone. Come out and for me anything, but study anything to find good. There's gonna car. Oh boy. Right. So he did that. And then it was stolen and it was stolen and it was never seen again. Never seen again. And somebody, it's in somebody's underground, sort of bunker collection. No doubt in my mind. How would it even be stolen on a flatbed? I mean it certainly didn't run. I imagine it was getting shipped from. One port and the next port and Florida and I don't know if you know anything about Floridians or guys who work at ports to sometimes they can be compromised. You're going on turns out, blue collar guys who worked near water and Florida. If you would like to give them some walking around money they will do extra things for you. Oh my God. You're kidding. You know, the stacks, and stacks of shipping containers at Florida ports or really any port. What percentage of those stacked sky, high have no illegal connection whatsoever. Nothing illegal inside, no ill-gotten gains illegal money zero percent. Go connection I have no idea number in nineteen seventy four. If you wanted to Greece, some dockworkers palm, I am sure he'd be more than happy to take that thing and put it in another container that was heading for Dubai, and no better place than Florida and no better place than the dock and no better place than the seventies time than the seventy right. We have James Dean doing the PSA. Yeah. So this is the same year he died, right? One more question. Do you have any special vice for the young people who drive take it easy driving? Life might say, might being mind. Yeah. Supposed to be your own where anyway, prophetic don't ever do a PSA. Adema. We want you to do one for cervical cancer. Get the fuck out of my house. I'm clutching my groin yelling out. All right. So the car was never found. And it was taken from Florida and I now everyone is dead. One guy still alive, JJ arms detective that went looking for. We've talked about this guy is JJ arms. No hands. No hands are arms and an action figure made out of him and George barris, whose dad got JJ arms on the case. Course he did. I had this vague recollection as Nate and I were talking about beating out this, this episode of what happened is cars, like o j j arms. Oh, George barris own this car. And then I was like, I think I interviewed him and on car cast in two thousand and ten and he explained like what happens. I'll just play. The late great George barris real character. But again did not only did he do all of the cars that batmobile and the monkey will be on the munsters mobile tenders, the green hornet anytime. They need a car that comes in when you are celebrity, you brought your car to him if you're Lee majors, fair faucet, you brought them, and they made you a custom car for you to imagine. Nice. I know the deal, fine max van you can find some of those cars for later, but it's just crazy. Like every she'll ever just brought him their car. All right. A pilgrimage to barris place here. Sorry. Here is Barra son on car cast from almost ten years ago, the funny part about it. Hey, years after the car was stolen. I had JJ arms a famous international detective sure they made an action doll after the guy had interchangeable arm. Yeah. Conflict part about it is I told him stories, let me investigate. He came back a month. Later says, you know what George, he says that car was not stolen from the truck was stolen before the truck, because he checked away station, all the way cross the United States and never change weight. So that means the car had been stolen from the dock in Florida. So whoever took it, it must be a collector, because it's not hiding it first off, hold on them, reeling criminals, and Florida ever ever heard of such, they're all such upstanding, citizens, JJ arms, by the way, was a detective who was like missing his arms. And they made some kind of TV show out of the dude, and then they made an action figure out of the guy yet, like a grappling, hook and a bazooka. I don't know if he cut his arms off to sell the dolls or if he didn't Vietnam. What happened? It was arms when his young boy firecrackers brew both of his hands, and that's how he lost his hands was for the fire cracker nearly days. And then he became famous he found Marlon Brando's kid he was really very I did a surveillance. Of course. Same wasn't really arms was it? Well that's the name. I. Spell it differently. Now he's still alive. He's gotta be in Florida. Maybe texas. Guys are they're never. They're never in Seattle, there in Florida, Kansas. Right keys. Right. Is born in Texas there. Yeah. What's his loyal name? What's JJ arms, Israel, name, how old is a khanate interview before he dies. And do we have the commercial from his action figure? We have the commercial right here you wanna watch anything. This file this under one more thing. I wasn't going to get when I was nine but I've still intrigued. No, you can play world's greatest investigator with TJ arms, the action figure with interchangeable hands. What today's mission pretend to find my missing atomic warhead changing to such in cups, you can make England of end in chip using hooks JJ signs down hot on the trail now quickly switching to JJ's magnetic, hand, you recover of a missing warhead alert day arms comes with everything you see from ideal while she did. You know, when you watch that commercial that was a real person. I member go in like no. I thought it was like an action figure as. Yeah. Like I figure well what they did is they had evil can even ones but they ran short on hands just like got some show some closer shin Jackson repurpose it. But then I start seeing like, news stories and stuff. And then there was, I think even a TV show if I if I my brain is in two rotted like one of the seventies TV shows that lasted one episode. Owed, or like there was a TV show. And then the real guy was like evil knievel not. I mean evil can even that he he had the same. Here's the same stylist. You know what I mean? Like notion of transportation with taking a Lincoln continental and put inside pipes on it to tone paint, like putting their number and rainbow tape like on the hood like seventy a garish. Elvis, kind of seventy big cover. Investigators writer it's right. Yeah. Like the team when you went to slide under the radar, you get a cut. Try drive like a maniac up down residential streets on two wheels black guy of the mohawk driving governing, her chain was not the guy could have been one of many though. Yeah. Who else on the coal the sack of immediately been able to point to the MP's? Oh, the nine living at the end. Yeah. They're prove my son was almost killed five times by that van when he was walking high on the plane site. Yes. Who would do that if you're, you're something legal? All right. So is there commercial mix man. He was he played the villain in a Hawaii five o episode of star command. Yeah. His name is not JJ arms RJR herald arm. It's. Julian, Julian Armas. Not too shabby Jay and arms on that one too. I like barristers like he was holding firecrackers big ass firecrackers, but anyway. Well, if you have the Hawaii five o clip now he's how old now. He's, he's eighty six years. All right. So anything he's in Florida. We got interview. Well, he would know he would have some insights to that. Plus, I just like to see Dan. That's a guy who's, Dan, you wanna try pot, right? Assigned picture for Marlon Brando saying, thanks. Yeah. There's a there's a Twitter for JJ. I don't know if it's a fine. I'm checkmark, I'm going to bet that he has a sunken, Dan, I stepped down some real, shag real thick shag. Couple of steps down. And we step right into nineteen seventy seven that's what I preserved great colors. Yeah. I bet there's like some, some autograph. There's gotta be some pictures of like Joey heatherton on the wall. What number wife a Riyan for JJ hard to hard to tell? Interesting one. Joey heatherton was like one of these seventies fixtures hot chicks who wasn't really known from one place, but had like the song and the dance and would probably pop up on love boat, all the time, and the great name she oh, we had their ten that name Sam familiarizing, Terry type. Like, like, she's she's known how much question, what for ES, you know, for being blonde and, and being able to regurgitate, I know the navy lines of script, I don't know, find out where Joey, what whatever Joey haven't. All right. I'll tell you about this simply safe. I don't know shoot shoot JJ tweet, maybe maybe will bring us up. All right. Make it a favored one simply safe. Did you know most break ins happen between six and the AM and six PM? Yeah. The happened during the day the middle of the day. That's how I got busted on my motorcycle that time. So I got arrested the copter out patrolling the side streets because people were breaking into houses. They break in it. Four in the morning or in the middle of the night, or whatever know they break in when everyone's worm. Yeah. So only one in five homes has security, most companies don't make it easy expensive drilling. There's pulling wires a hassle. It is simply safe to I simply say protect your home, every window every room, every door twenty four seven monitoring at a fraction of the cost. Just fifteen bucks a month designed to blend riding with your home. You don't even see these things monitors are so small peel and stick batteries last up to ten years, and they've won a ton of a ward seen it New York Times, wire cutter. They've won it all. Visit SimpliSafe dot com slash Adam to for free shipping and sixty day free trial. Let's do it. Simply safe dot com slash Adam to try down six day, free trial free shipping. Right. Let's see him. See, we have that, that homeless article laughing about our do we have the homeless, the homeless clip that Gary was pulling over there? What was the setup for for that? Sorry. Well, you you saw the clip? You're talking to Nathan rich for take a knee, then rich former scientologist but he, he was homeless. He was homeless in Vegas, Arizona. Maybe New Mexico loss Angeles and Seattle or Portland. I do believe he traveled around as a homeless young man. Yes. Yes. Sorry and go ahead. Well anyway, so you're gonna this article from the Sacramento bee is written by Dan shirt, and it's the influencers opinion. Section about breaking down the root causes of California's homeless crisis to find solutions bright and some. Politician cited a number. Yeah. So state, Senator Scott Weiner. Democrat out of San Francisco has pushed to increase housing supply in urban areas, and for digital financial support, the Californians who can no longer pay sky, high rent and his quote is about seventy percent of homeless people have neither a mental health nor and addiction problems seventy percent. Don't know does just regular folk they simply can't afford housing. So it's just the lion share of the homeless people. The people who at night sleep like when you're going down, western and underpass there at silver lake and the person that decides to sleep. And that sort of half a shrub slash dirt. With a cardboard box. There is a person that is only getting thirteen dollars an hour working at Home Depot. And if that person was getting nineteen dollars an hour, then that person would not be sleeping on the ground. I had no idea is that it's a lion. Share of the people. Seventy percent are not involved with drugs or alcohol. Simply not don't make enough money to Ford an apartment. And by the way in this state in the states are pretty big state. I mean, they're places you can go out of Los Angeles, and that rent will drop pretty damn fast inland. It doesn't have to be Carmel, right? Fulton Z's free. All right. So this guy says get that from where she gives at number from, I'm sure he doesn't cite any sources. Now, they are in their in this predicament, because of California's failure to build enough housing at any income level, California, has systematically underfunded subsidized housing for our lowest income residents, those at the bottom of the economic ladder, or at significant risk of being pushed onto the streets. Well, here's the thing about building commercial property's housing of any kind or production of any kind. We. Will either do it here. Or we won't depending on how friendly you are to us doing it here. If you make it fairly easy to do it here, here's the thing about California. Everybody wants to do something in California, all production since everyone lives in the Palisades all the guys all the decision makers live in Malibu, Beverly Hills Bel Air and the Palisades and in Sinoe. They would love to sleep in their own bands every night. They do it here if you make it difficult financially from a regulatory standpoint to do it, then they will get on a plane, thus me driving. Bryan Cranston to Burbank airport so he can go to New Mexico. Bryan, Cranston lives in Sherman oaks, he likes it there. He doesn't want to go to New Mexico for long periods of time enjoys his house in Sherman oaks. But if that's where the money is that's where the money is, what have been nice to film in riverside like they were. Going to people who build commercial units and housing, low income housing or any kind of housing, who I'm sure would love to be in Los Angeles, and do it. But if you make it difficult for them, then they shall not do it. And that then you will have a shortage of production and a shortage of housing. So it's a weird thing to blame the builders just like blaming production, which they don't blame. Well, they do they did blame the production. And they're like, hey, come on. Do the right thing. And then they did that for awhile, and the productions aren't really anything, but a bunch of numbers, just count money, that goes out, and count money that comes in. And so you couldn't tug at their heart strings because they didn't care because they're just a machine that calculates numbers. So at a certain point, they went, okay? We're going to give you a bunch of breaks and they went we're back, right? Well, that's how they do it. So now that we know that's how it works, then go ahead and ease up on some of the regulations and make it a track. Active for the builders to build. Seventy percent. I don't know when this thing got so politicized. I imagine. Your plan. If you're running this shit house is to sort of blame the blame the man, and the man are commercial guys who build stuff. So it's like blame that guy. Don't blame us blame that guy. And if you say that everyone is flopped out in they're all strung out on drugs and booze. That's kind of, on you who runs the city who runs the state, if you blame it on bunch of rich guys who'd rather go to Texas and turn a profit than stay here and do the right thing then that isn't your fault. Also, that is your over regulated it and got them to go. So both roads lead to you. But for some reason, there's a fixation by the powers that be to turn homelessness into something other than what it is like you'll hear Gavin news and the face of homeless. That's not out of work. You know that's not a junkie felon. That's a mom. That's a mom who's refreshed newly divorced. Lost her job, who has to take her famous. It's like. I you could go find that example person exist. But in small numbers and having just freshly comeback from San Francisco, where we walked to and from a venue in a hotel twice every day. These are not down on their luck moms with, with a kid into these were people chasing us with shopping carts, screaming bottles of people. Anybody who knows labor town. You don't have to know you don't have to crunch numbers. You don't see anything when you see a guy slumped over, and it's one in the afternoon, and that guy's in a zone filth and he slumped over and he's leaning against the stucco wall of an underpass, and it sort of hap, one eye open, and one eye shut that's not out of work guy. That's severely impaired drug. Attic guy. By the way, also the reason I'm bitching about this is if you would like to solve a problem. This is not the way to go. 'bout solving a problem when you need to identify what the problem is. What's caused around, then we can solve the problem? This is not a way to solve a problem because there is a very specific way to help that person. And it's not giving him another six bucks. Yes. Who's this lying douchebag politician? Again, this is state Senator Scott Weiner, and the seventy percents thing that feels so oddly specific gift so vague at the same time. Yes, I'm sure means nothing either way. He's a liar. So thank you for helping run the city into the ground. I'll just play the clip of. I talked to Nathan wrench. Yeah that's like a minute half. But it's just meet just going who's anybody homeless who's not on something. What percentage of people in your experience who are homeless were not addicted to something or who has a dicta- to sometime trying to do the math? But if we're including alcohol than say virtually all of them are addicted. So it's like basically one hundred percent of the people are doing something extremely, rare to find somebody who is on the streets, who doesn't have a vice. That's hanging over their head. Did you find anybody in your travels pretty extensive travels and pretty extensive time who was? We have a big homeless situation population in Los Angeles. And there's this sort of this narrative of, like, well, the factory closed down, and the next thing you know, she's living out on the streets and our, he's living on the streets. And I'm like it doesn't feel like just your, you know, you lose your job on a Friday and you're living out on the streets on a Monday. It feels like a whole bunch of stuff now in the homeless world, that, at least that I saw all up and down the west coast. You've got different sort of factions of homeless people different sort of types. I was what they would call street kid. There's also what we call the St Kitts, call home, bums weirdly, which are what normal people call like bums. Okay, I would bunch of hair, and he's talking to self selling oranges or whatever, but there isn't a sect of like oh, here's the people that used to have a job and then the job, you know, the factory closed down, and now they're just homeless. Usually those people have a route through, and that they can go. And get social security. They can get temporary food stamps gas vouchers. They can get all the stuff and get back on their feet. Yeah. Well, also, again, I'd like a gas can be an expert at everything gas fascists. It's, it's my second hand smoke thing, where it's like rob Reiner says fifty thousand American type seconds you go. I've never heard of anyone. I don't know anybody's ever died. I've heard of million diagnoses, and I've heard about this celebrity, or Luke Perry died mislead or whatever, but who side of second, and if you don't if you can't come up with a person, and if you can't picture that homeless person just the GM factory in van Nuys closed down. And this guy worked there for thirty one years in Dow, he sleeps on the ground. Picture that like you're gonna win that guy have friends that he worked with their family car. Yes. I mean I'm not saying everyone is wildly gainfully employed. I'm saying anybody? We know who was not severely impaired, who was not schizophrenic and not taking their meds. Severe drug abuser. Anyone, we know under normal circumstances could go crash on anyone sofa could put up and flayed -able mattress. And someone's garage for a few weeks until they found a job there is that distance between you losing your job, or you being short on funds or the factory closing down. And you physically having a concrete pillow. There's a big gap there in a lot. That's gotta go wrong before you physically get to the straits. They painted as. Has WalMart laid the guy off and then following night. He slept on the sidewalks. I know there's, there's a some phone calls to make how many I know I know ton of people who went back home. I know men and women who've literally at age twenty four just went like I that a problem with drugs or booze or a life kind of was too fast, whatever. Yeah. And they literally just went back to their old room and got their shit together for eighteen months. Hated their parents. Every step of the way, which I love because I was like, well don't move back home, then old oldish person this door. That is open to you for some reason. I always love that when the twenty four year old moves home. Like my dad still thinks he can tell me what to do. It's like, well, the landlord said, take out the trash. You're eating food. And you should be employed in living on your own. But okay, we've all we've all seen that and heard of that. Okay. I've heard of that of her. Getting, I've had, you know, I had I mean look, you wanna get homeless. I mean my best buddy, Chris's dad was going to fucking prison and he, he got dumped out of his apartment like three weeks or month before prison. He calls early admission. Accepting. Yeah, he was treating it. He was out front of the prison like they're dropping the new apple iphone. Wars jealous. Cute up. Graham story now we show look at a one bedroom apartment Ida one bedroom apartment with three dudes and and, and Rick shows up with a box with cowboy boots in the box and Dinty Moore stew, and, and his water bottle any like plops down. And he's, he's sleeping on the sofa. They've slept on the sofa for a few weeks. He crashed at his son's not his son's house, not his son's apartment, his sons friends apartment is where he crashed. My dad got divorced. He went to inlaws out, I slept in Grandpa's office. There's a lotta options and also when the choice is or sleep on the street MO my grandparents. I'm sure hated my dad rightfully so nobody wanted that sack of shit on their sofa less than grandpa did in their one bedroom. One. Through m- eight hundred square foot pile of crap. In north Hollywood. Yeah. Dad, but they still went like, okay. Just flop on the sofa. How are they're still there? Yeah. The story goes that might dad doesn't have any dignity. So his thing is like a while, I'll stay on the sofa long, you'll times, let me stay on this show foot because it's free, but it is certain point at least here, my grandfather say, I think my grandfather I several months like my grandfather, just went like, hey. This is my office. Johnny Carson here at night, any work. Can you gotta get out? You got to find an apartment. I know that your family lacks conventional traditional dignity. Right. But I have wondered before would your mom like Papua for Sunday dinner and be like. Oh, hi. Because that was her family. You're here. She hated. She hated her fame. I guess she hated my dad's so she hated everybody stayed away from that house. She was lukewarm on the cat and other than that, she hated everybody cars, the house circle, don't go here. So, and then she couldn't really, she couldn't cast judgement because she was living in their other house, which was supposed to be a rental property. And she was flopping at for free. So she couldn't go over and cross her arms. And look at Jim and go, oh, what a loser, you're living because they go well, you took up the fucking house. At least I just took up the Dan. Yeah. Well, that's an argument. Yeah. A real couple of Trump's. That's how we grew up like the Trump family between the two of them. They had my grandfather's, Dan. And they had the other shitty house that they owned that being that my grandparents they're zero deeds property. Anyway, whether it was Rick Boehm or my parents, or whomever, they just call. All their pathetic relatives. And by the way, nobody liked anybody. It's not like they liked champs like, well after all Jim has done for us. The least do. Jack squad for anybody, but they're like, okay, just plop on the sofa. And we just told wreck you just bring your Dinty Moore plop on the so funny plopped on the sofa, like people are pretty. Especially it's weird. But the lower the income, and the harder, you have it and like the last bathrooms and all that weirdly the more, tolerant, you are that I think that's true. I got I got seven thousand square feet now and I wouldn't put up with it, but and multiple bathrooms. But back then had no square footage in one bathroom. Let them crash, a very this might as well happened. Today is also like it's already were floating educators, -i. Somebody already took a shit in it. And now this guy's pissing and it's like. With a turt-, and, like, okay. All right. So anyway, seventy percent of homeless turn out, don't have any addiction problems. So it's just that one thirty percent. I if that's the tick is true. Let me put this message out to the seventy percent. How about you ask? Why get your shift together? If you're totally sober, and you're able bodied, and you're just sleeping on a sidewalk use, and get up and see find a job and guy ahead head heading to the inland empire or go find or go to get a southwest ticket to Nebraska and get a job at a textile mill or something walk, and you got time, right? All right. We have JJ JJ arms from Hawaii five o is hook man to man, the play this is nineteen Seventy-three. TV dinner with. Stabbing. Officers accident repeat officers at Ceuta and Keever in car seven. Mike to one two contacts are cider on frequency. Being alone on the Matic. Guns rock of machine guns proudly displayed. Are there any flip story speaks Mexico? He's, he's not a talker show. Just uses hooks a ton. Per up with it with his hook. I guess he was an actor I and then started the physics. The silent film era. LA talkies a longest seen without dialogue. How long was the script nine pages this episode? I thought he would be opening. Laura talking. Don't walk through, gene. No matter with that grabbed scissors now going to cut his hair article. Well, he could have a business where he cut hair. This is all impressive. By the way, he's, he's sizzling. Here's the word. The I, I guess this is just a slow Caballo him in how how desk areas with his able body? All right. Well, anyway, max RAD, if he does say, anything, let us know the hour long episodes co-stars. Oh man. Wow. JJ arms still alive, isn't their credit? Does it very long arms? Yes. Him exclusively nothing but JJ arm just doing everyday household things with to not speaking thinking, considering during there was dating. There is an action figure. It's a crazy. You can't make this stuff up. And he was, it was just one of the run of the mill guest guest stars on a seventy show. Guys. I'm trying to think. We had in the seventies we had these things we first off. We have these sort of human interest, fascinations stories. We had like those incredible people. And those while this whatever's good people like you look at evil knievel evil knievel was probably the most famous person on the planet for maybe a decade. He was known everywhere to everyone on the planet. There was action figures. There was evil knievel, the movie starring George tan guy. Judge? So here's how famous evil can evil is in one stretch. There's evil knievel the movie with a young George Hamilton playing evil knievel. And then there's a movie called Viva knievel starring evil knievel as evil knievel. So imagine there's who movies out. Freddie. Mercury was still alive, and they had MO hime ramp the out. And then another one, he'll Freddie, Freddie, with him out at the same time like that. That's not him famous, so we have these, like personalities or think of Howard Cosell. You know what I mean these big personnels that everybody just knew. Sometimes they didn't even possess a skill like I mean, not a scale but what they weren't actors there were everyone knew Muhammad Ali, but that's a little something else. And then the richest these big personalities and Howard Cosell's Riva knievel's, and your things, and they did stuff, but we were char- house. Yeah, yeah, chara, we're always looking for the next who is this thing that we can all get excited about detective, who was missing his arms named JJ arms. And there were certain yardstick t measure, like, if you got an action figure after you that, that, that meant something if you're showing up on TV shows, and we had all these kind of Friday night shows where they're talking about those crazy, people are the most amazing people when we love these weird human interesting. So I don't know if we're so much that way. Now, maybe the internet is help that or hurt that or there's. Too many names or too many people. I mean saturated how, how many famous people, there was no such thing as a famous person that a whole group of people had heard of when I was a kid. Now, when you go the BT awards, and you start going through all the rappers go, this guy famous, this guy's multi-platinum blah, blah, blah, like, okay, I'll take your word for that. I do not know that name, even if you were foreign, you reach certain level of Palay, or Bjorn Borg, everyone knew who that was back in the day, who knew jussie, small let was before the thing. It's like oh, he's a big star is on empires. It's like nobody. No share of people people watched empire. Didn't know who he was. Right. Right. All right, Lynch, provided a response to me, making fun of him following the band fish which was pretty funny. He tweeted me back. It's. You can go fuck yourself with a P A an apt response. A respectable response. I liked it. I liked it a lot. Comey writer. Yeah. All right. Let's see. We got a clip from Denver comedy, works, what are we got in there? This is you talking about dick picks dick picks. Here we go. I've never taken a dick pic. The ass, you know why you welcome. You ever get a stanch grab? What's the snatch version? We need a name for that. Well, we got a label it something that, right? There's no reason to take a picture my day by took a picture my dick and I sent it to you guys. Go. There you go. Dick. I can't see him before. It's not big. It's novelty about it doesn't have like a dog leg or. Saying trap, or anything just, just dig, like no reason. Taking a picture of my dear it'd be like, if you and your buddy was, like walking down the street you're like. Is that a Camry? We got beige with a cloth interior get over here. By those. Do that shit. Eight thousand got less than ninety on it. Get a shot of this. Reason whatsoever to take a picture of my deck. Although you should wait a couple of beats before you reject my cock, and such a wholesale fashion. I go, I'm not gonna take pictures, you know, you're. Seri- about Dixie elements, a picture year dead. It's true. But let it breathe. Pretend you're thinking about. Picture. Corollas knock. Forget like that. Like you're digesting a little bit said your quick wholesale. Knacks. If my dick. My dick is so plain. Dick was a character in a sitcom. It would be potsy from happy days. Sweet kid in a card again. Do stand next, but we're not gonna spin off series. There were three like hot chick sitting in the front and the head to do that move that hot chicks. Do just like being hot you go. Well, there's a thing where you go, like I was gonna get naked and jump in the pool. But is pleased down thing where it's like okay. Do you have to pretend like first off? Maybe it'd be funny or whatever you don't have to, like, I, I think that I don't take picture my. Yeah. Thank you, like, okay, we get it. You're hot and you have to provide this commentary that lets us know that your hot rejecting my dick, I get it. Wow. But I mean you don't have to do that. But at the end of the day, I do that. There was a three top a hot chicks center front row. There were three hot chicks front row, who had too strenuously pretend like they didn't want to see a picture of my dick, but I knew what the truth pretending. They had to act. They are putting JJ arms level acting. Silent like JJ. Funny. There were checks, max Vanna. Oh, yeah. They're pretty hot. Yeah. He did not miss them. All right. Let's see what do we got here. The walking in our guests are walking. All right. So why don't we take our selves a break, and then we'll come back and chase Rick box who I think I saw at match game with the Alec Baldwin. I saw him. We'll talk to them right after this. The price tag on that. 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More doing. Corolla drains. Thanks, JBL and harming audio partnering with us on sound the girl a family barbecue. They let us use this bans gear. They're called ever ride. You can learn more at ever ride official dot com. Take a listen. Follow anchor Corolla drinks for pictures and video from the Corolla family barbecue, and thanks to JBL ambassador band ever. We appreciate it. Presents definitely. Two. On the role is shown. Saint Paul Minnesota of fifty nine year old mother and her twenty year old daughter were arrested at Domino's pizza for threatening staff with a handgun because they had not received their order hot way. Definitely not. Rick Fox in studio. Jas hall is partner in studio. The podcast, g g podcast new episodes on Wednesdays apple podcasts and podcast one. And we got the game or stuff to talk about how big good see you guys again. Who do you see all Jason seen in a million years? And then Rick, I saw nine months ago in New York gruesome little match game action. Yeah, it's a good. It's a good vibe over there. Isn't it have a little funny type of show you can do they hand you drinks at eight in the morning? Encourage you to get hammered. That's like this is me this, what happens is every commercial break. They just come out hand your new drink. And at the end of your third taping you have no idea where you are. You've been drinking. I said, what if you went to a bar and you ordered a MARTINI and you were just like watching hockey and sipping off the MARTINI? And you were going to sit there for five hours, but someone just kept refilling your MARTINI like how should face the end of that game? Only on one drink. Yeah. You've had one. It's bottomless bucket of drinks. So let's talk about just how big this gaming has gotten and the teams I know you guys are team owner and the notion. Or can we say owner Rick Rick is? Yeah. I'm on Eastport professionals organizational owner and my my dream and passion was at some point after I retired from official sports was to maybe find my way into ownership in a pro NBA team. But it it may be a reverse plan here because I got into sports ownership through east sports which is professional video game play at the highest level. Let's talk about how big it is internationally Christmas. Telling me, basically, the Super Bowl was second only to the Super Bowl of for bowl of e sports, can you explain that? Well, you know, every year we you'll come across the NBA finals or World Series Super Bowl. Major globally sports events rival, those none. Numbers in media, and, and the in China alone against the world championships legal legends. They sold out the whole Olympic stadium of a hundred thousand people. So you're getting the type of attendants type of viewership numbers that very quickly now have garnered the attention of sponsors and fans alike as this generation's desired choice of celebrating competition. Well, you know, I as you're as you're describing this, I'm saying, shocked faces on the other side of. Let me sort of put a theme around it. What's happening in why? Suddenly, you know, you're hearing so much more about this. Everyone's been playing video games for a long time. They've been around for since the arcades, right? But everything's always been focused on the video game as the point of interest. And what started to happen with streamers and all this stuff. Is it starts to matter who's playing the game? And when the minute you start focusing on the people who are in the activity that becomes far more interesting too far. More people are just, you know, and so that gives rise to e sports and, and, you know, people personalities like ninja who he had on Ellen or what have you. And so it's really exciting to be sort of part of that. And Rick actually was part of the catalyst, where you have a professional NBA accomplished player coming into this space and saying, hey, the activity over here is similar to what I did over there. And I remember when you went on the view and they just laughed at you. When when you took a very. Very controversial stance at the time that they were actually athletes. Well, can we anyone was allowed to say that it would be, you know, to anything anymore, like Brian says who knew LEGO the movie was going to be such so huge as a great movie such a great franchise lay goes? No. I am on its face may started off, you know, tank Abbott and he's fighting dumpster. Losing, and losing, he's losing to dumps there like it was, like, come on. And now the biggest thing ever, like we're not in a position to poo poo, any idea, any more, because it's all potentially good. I mean it doesn't guarantee anything but you can you can no longer go that will never work, you could be entertained that at the end of the day is I think why people are tuning in. They were entertained as players of the game, they grew up playing video games they've evolved, we've evolved to generation. Now that won't be told put down the controller and get out of the house because if they do that they just play on their phones. So the technology's advance the access to viewing this technology through streaming platforms advanced. And so, I think just as a whole. Evolution is taking us to a point now where in sport this generation that have played video games see that as their form of competition that they want to express themselves through that they want to chase a career in whether it's in competition or whether the coach journalist analysts the person covering it the physical therapy, you know, person that's working. Whoever it is all of those career paths really parallel any traditional sport, France, you know, experienced sorry, I will say that I came up in the Nintendo second Genesis EROs, beg in my life is young, you know, ten to twelve year old or whatever the air was. And of course, it was more fun to play the games. But there was something very cool. Even like you know, the Neo geo streetfighter era, like seeing the older kid in the neighborhood could just kick ass. And like you kind of watched an all like oh, you could do that he could do that. Like there was kind of a cool thing to watch courses more fun to play. But there was something cool about watching, what was real interesting about what you're saying is you go to an arcade. And you'd see people playing. There was actually a physical limitation of how many people could gather around the machine to see it. Never really got a sense of how many people might be interested in watching it just because of that limitation. But the minute people could start to stream their game play and anyone could watch it. Well, now you're actually seeing how many people in the world. Actually are interested in scenes that time affair. And to talk about this being new. I mean, the documentary king of Kong is something that we all have enjoyed this has been going on for a while the other thing I never really thought about, but you're when you're talking about playing in the Olympic stadium. I did, I think about all these big venues and all these big venues like Dallas stadium has a huge Jumbotron hanging from the middle the place and you do feel kinda stupid buying a ticket sitting down at the fifty yard line nine rose back and then staring up at the Jumbotron because there's a facsimile of that going on on the field. So it's kind of weird, whether it's a concert or whatever it's kind of weird. When you're you find yourself in a suite at the dodger game. And your back is turned to the field and you're staring at the screen above the bar. But this actually is made to be watched on a screen like you don't if you go to see one of these events you don't feel guilty for not looking down. I guess I'm picturing it as a as a. Sporting event, you know, that's a really good thought. I don't really think about that so much because I'm a pure video gamer. Right. So, so the idea of going watch sports is sort of a little more foreign to me in terms of, you know, it's natural for me to want to look at a screen, but I having been at these events. There is an added element of seeing the players sitting there sweating it out, the, the subtle interactions that go on between the two teams that are literally sitting side by side, there is more there. But yes, there's no guilt in, you know buying your ticket sitting in the seat staring at a giant Jumbotron, Rick every every weekend in support of our team. And it is grown on me. And really when I think back to what really I bit me. With excitement was an experience at Madison Square Garden in two thousand fifteen where I went to witness a North American championships legal legends. And I walked into an arena tonight played in for years in my life hundreds of times, and it was sold out. The energy was electric the fans were feverish the merchandise. Sessions every everything you get from experience of going into a sporting event, or a concert was there. And, and I watched for five hours and enjoyed myself and it was in that moment that I ran into to Adam silver, who was Commissioner of the NBA, they're experiencing it trying to digest what this was himself. And I asked him, I said, what is it about this event that you're here, you're the NBA Commissioner, and he said, Reckitt goes at the end of the day, they're filling arenas, I had thirty owners who own arenas, and so very shortly. After that he created the E sports division in the NBA just to explore and understand where this was going, and then a year later he started to k league and you have the NBA involved with two K E sports competitions where they draft players. NBA teams own sports, you know franchise within their organizations. And now you have the NHL looking at it. And if everyone is now you know, evolving to this place where they're actually incorporating that into revenue model of their their business. If you're Adam silver, you don't want to run into Rick Fox, I can tell you when I did dancing with the stars. And I had to stand in between Jason Williams. I think we'll see the and for. Taylor. By the way, you guys should have some sort of competition, Rick you thought you're pretty. I mean, we've have the over six six caramel division guys in the senior crew, or whatever division with their is I dunno. 'antonio Bandera step. I can't remember that guy section city. There was that guy. And there was looking. Between those guys like a fucking pig doorstop like there. No, that's accurate. Those guys were so got damned good looking, and there were so tall and they're so crazy that you don't normally feel that bad. You hang out with cousin, Sal mix and short. And they're dumping their ball and everything you stand in between us guys, you feel you want to kill yourself ever blind. And you know, Adam silver's, not easy on the eyes is what I'm saying. We would go run into a Rick. Kinda get a buffer in between you two. Jeff Ross Jeff arousal stand with green, Jeff tell. Tell Adam between that. No silver. No. Because he's without being without being fat. He's unattractive is, is you get. He's weird looking he's like eighteen next to Elliot. Right. All right. Who did I do that? The guy was like the guy was like, Toro delph way go or something who put pen Gillette in between you guys. You gotta find a good one. Of Jason's on the right. Got to find a good one of that guy. Didn't he should of Gucci one? Right. Oh. You're saying in the over six five caramel colored Chris vision. So you guys are on full like football, you know rock. To be real logs real tough to tell who's easier on the eyes. All right. So this thing is, what is a guy like. I think my son was telling me that ninja made like eleven million dollars or volunteers, nineteen million bucks right up with the top professional athletes in the world. This is good for you. And I'll tell you why. Because we grew up with our fucking moms, and grand-mom's going that guy gets ten million dollars. Take up ball and drop it through he hits a ball with a stick. We millions of dollars. Well, now they can shut the fuck up because this nineteen million bucks for playing joystick in front of a computer. We at least the guy with the basketball is burdensome calories. He's doing the thing. They stop doing. That's right. But those games down, there's no such thing of telling again, you can't say what won't work. No, I can't tell my son. That's a horrible idea when he says, I want to end the blind get scholarship for it. They're definitely doing that. Now, the other day mastery, you know, celebrating mastery or watching it or wanting to understand. It is actually interesting. What is I agree? I think we are perfectly capable of just going who's the best at anything it could be passed fishing. It doesn't it doesn't matter. We will champion what does a guy on your team like how do you pay your guys in some cases of money? You know, we've had players that we've had to let go that. If wanted, you know, seven figure contracts. So the, the average salary, I think, in a legal legends, one of one of our franchise games. Right now is I think the average is three fifty three hundred fifty thousand with the high end being one to one one point two million. Can you walk us in economics, because is it all prize money? You're taking. Short at this one. We're novices so walk through the how, how does eighteen make a lot of money and dust pay its players? Well, you know, depending on the game that's being played the economic shift a little bit. I'll talk about a special one in a second. But in something like league of legends the, the, it's all based on how many people are watching and cooking. So it's very similar model to, to normal sports in that, if you got a lot of a team that's got a lot of fans and a lot of people viewing it, they can make more money. So in so you have teams that will pay their players salary, certainly if the team wins, there's prize money that the publisher of the game might award to the league one second, hit with a lot of people watching to make money off that these are you running an ad or something in the bottom of the so similar to some really? We, there's merchandising, right? And but with publishing rights, you know the in game owners became owners can actually share revenue of in game items. Okay. So you're talking about not only you, are you selling merchandise out on the streets. You can wear a t shirt, you can buy, plus she or some type of doll, you can actually buy that same item in game. You can't have it in your locker in your account or whatever. Well revenue split with team owners because we as a team our have paid franchisees to be in this league and for that we're in agreement partnership with the publisher and we share revenue, what, what countries excel who are the top dogs, I don't know. I think of it sort of like soccer, there's just some countries taco other it depends on the game. But you'll definitely get a lot of high end players out of South Korea as an example, part of that, just relates to the culture that general culture of. South Korea in terms of how acceptable it is to play video games. So elebrate it's celebrated far more than in, you know, other countries are lagging behind, but they're getting there, so that encourages more participation, more money involved more. So you got a real lot of really, really good players coming out of South Korea. That's for sure. Yeah, you can get in the case of Doda prize pool. And dodo was I think twenty one million. Well, so I was gonna talk about that, so Toda which is the, the short version of defender of the arena defender of it's a game. It's very similar to legal ages. One of the things that the publisher does is they create a special item at leading up to a big event that you can purchase as a player of the game. It's an Ingraham item so it's like a special t-shirt, your character can wear as an example. Right. And they'll charge twenty dollars for that. Well, there's millions of players of this game and almost like the all wind up buying it that turns into forty fifty million. Dollars of sales of that item and a huge percentage of that of that revenue goes to the winner of the event. So that's why you can see particularly Doda very large prize pools. Right. In the crowdfunding kind of fashion. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess if you think in terms of sports, you think, well, God, I seems like football's kind of trailing off because none of the parents want their kids out there, making the contact and have the head trauma, and baba blah. So you look at a sort of, let's look at the twenty year chart go. We'll nobody's playing pee wee football. Like I, you know, when I was a kid, everybody played pop Warner peewee, whatever contact tackle football. And now in my neighborhood, none of the moms, and none of the kid, by the way, it's not. The mom's not letting the kids, the kids are full blown pussies. Do they're like, I'm not gonna do that my son, by the way, what are you going to do with your brain? Come on. I've seen your brain at work. It's nothing special. We work in a car wash, you know, but like I'm not doing that. So the kids aren't doing it. The parents don't want him do it. Nobody wants to do it. I don't know where the next, you know, NFL always going to be huge. But if you sort of, we're looking at twenty year prediction, if you're not having a bunch of guys, come up, if everyone knows neighborhoods, aren't putting on those helmets and running around. It's gonna fact the game I video gaming it's going the other direction in everybody plays something. Right. And a lot of people don't consider themselves gamers, but they sit there on their phone tapping away at whatever crush, or whatever. Right. And clash royale, so, you know, I think a lot of interesting opportunities, going revolve for players of all, kinds, and certainly, the, the youth that you have this thing where there's a whole social aspect to the games that you're playing participating in the community. You know, you have a parent who sit there and see their kid in the locked in a room for twelve hours a day and think. Things being antisocial when, when, in fact, he or she is actually talking to hundreds of people super socially more than their parents ever did. Right. And they just don't know that the that that's taking place. So I, I would I would definitely say that the future is bright because it beyond just a sports leads to other careers. Side note or something somewhat connected, but dry, I felt like drone racing was up in growing for while and I saw a lot of that on, like ESPN three and stuff. And I don't know where that's at the drones like the race in inside the Coliseum and stuff like that. Thing naked secure. You know you start to see it probably in the summer in the off season. You'll start to see more drone racing on TV again or somewhere, you'll you'll it'll pop up I went to the Olympic form in lasagna about a year ago. Now where they did their first ever e sports forum so that the Olympics and the sports community coming together and understand what the future of video games, and he sports might have in connection with the Olympic Games and, and in that we met all the different two hundred federation heads that were heads of federations for different sports. Whether it's sailing, whether it's, you know, basketball, it didn't matter what it was. They were all there, and they were sharing a ready their plans for their e sports expression as pertains to their, their vertical of sport. Under the pick umbrella right now. The Olympics will be having shoulder content around the gains that have an e sports, you know. Into it, and eventually, I'm sure decide whether or not to included in the games or to create their own e sport, global games, which is they have to use games or limbo. Right. So I think that's where they're probably thinking ahead to but to your point drone racing. I spoke to a lady. That's a head of the drone thing. You know, you know, I name is Joan every. I spoke to her. They have skiing have ever skiing sports, which is more virtual reality. They something that's kind of interesting is taken the Paralympics or some other the Olympic Olympics, where like people might not have the use of their legs or their function, you know, wheelchairs, and whatever, and connect that to some of this virtual stuff because obviously, you don't you can be confined to a wheelchair and still kick. Some ass out all the battle. Yeah. Most definitely. Yeah. The president of the Olympic mission Thomas Bach. His he's trying to wrap his mind around some to which you saying, how do I incorporate video east video games into the Olympics? When it's very it's not him yet physical enough event. Right. And then he put on the VR goggles and did the boxing simulator and took him off. It went, okay? I think this is the way in at some point where you have virtual reality playing a role in eastbound. Well, the other interesting point about this. Eastport stuff is, it's genderless men, women got goes, they all compete in the same thing. There's nothing there's that doesn't have to be the men's division is your. I mean, there's no wait division. There's no men's soc. It's really accepting. And it's also sort of controversy for a because now there's all these things were that the woman is transitioning, the man transitioning to woman and now she's taking. Record for the hundred yard dash, but then the women are pissed. Right. But then they can't get past because they're gonna call haters. You know, there's a weird it gets a little murky and, and there is none of that anymore. There's, there's just how good are your eyes and how good your brain are there any based on the results? Are there any differences between male and female competitors methods more just because men are more drawn to games boys are, but, like, are their results wise like the same percentage of women do wells as the percentage of men does that make sense? I would say it's hard to get that measurement for a couple of reasons. One is our overall culture, does not doesn't encourage a lot of female participation. Right. And so you get narrowed numbers that, that way. And also because there's a lot of anonymous sort of gameplay women will come into. Video game environment. You know, guys will be very, very harsh with each other, especially if they're anonymous very lock Quinton, very, very blocked room. And so a woman comes into that environment, it is not she subjects all of that, too. So a lot of people don't want to be in that. So it's getting there where, where there's, you know, better behavior and all that sort of stuff. But frankly, there's no reason at all that a woman can not be at the top of the video game food chain versus a man. There's, there's literally no reason at all other than whether they have the interest to do, so the we have a clip, of course. Rick three times three Peter with the with the Lakers. Famously Jay she must have played. Where'd you play? Okay. See, I'm I'm, I'm. I'm a favor. I look like I should. Seven or eight four two on the longest I'm not. I got about of the basketball court. I'm one hundred percent. Video game player from the let me to really cut you. When I'm Rick they call him five. I didn't even know who he was. I thought he was I knew him from the TV series is. He played Jacksonville you. I didn't know him about lake like none of that stuff. So. Right. But you faker but you understand if you are six eight how tall I'm six seven six eight something like that. And you Bill. Well, jas hall Chand's like if you're making up a movie where you have a blue chip looks to come up who's gonna get first crack at chase hall. Please high-near lay Cleese cast, Nick Nolte. He got to play with career. He had to play against cream Abdul Jabbar. She was it was it was awful. He just like, you know you in business. I'm in the video game business, I was running at the Time Warner brothers, interactive entertainment. We go over to someone's house. He's got a built in Lakers basketball court part of his house, and so were there and they're like, hey, that's all play basketball. They look at me like you guys go you obviously can play. So we start trying to play an N walks Kareem Abdul Jabbar in his friend or something. And they're like, hey cream. Why don't you play with us? And since I was the tallest time I had to guard Kareem. It was it was he the Ellen in like his elbow was permanently planted in the center chest. People story to have Jay, I've played for the Lakers, played NBA basketball fourteen years, I didn't get to play with or against cream job ever in my life. Then you didn't taste the sharp elbowed that was would be constantly pressing. You're saying to your chest. He I couldn't do anything. I'll be trashed octa called them Lou. I'm surpri- did. Did did. He was moving. It was good. This was this was just like maybe two thousand and seven someone on there is. But also, you can't hang around the Rick. Fox, the problem is seem like a team. Yes, I like a faker. I'm ugly friend. That's the faker. The we have a clip of the Commissioner talking about moving away from the term owner, it's ironic that Ricksen ownership. How we liked the term owner. But there is let's see what he has to say. This all just went down the other day. So I thought, well, good timing. Here we go. Moving away from that term owner I do. I don't want to overreact to the term, because as I said earlier, people end up with themselves into knots waiting for the word on we moved away from that term years ago. We, we call our team owners governor team alternate governors. But so I think it makes sense said, I, I don't want to overreact he'll find the word throughout memo's with over the past decade in the NBA, but I I'm sensitive to it. I think. Teas are moving away from the term. We'll stick with using governor. Did you feel governor Jerry boss, the owner, the Lakers, could you feel the tension, wreck back in the down, Dr bus was, I think the greatest owner I've ever known and, and potentially could have been in the NBA. He was just great. He feel like he owned you I felt I felt I felt like the Lakers owned me if you feel like. This is what I'm saying. I don't think he should call himself Commissioner that has overtones like Commissioner, Gordon and Batman police Commissioner. What about all the poor Brown and black, people that are incarcerated day stays is this guy should be calling Commissioner. I don't like it threatening also. Also, it has over Tigres that he should grand wizard. Adam silver, should call himself something other Commissioner to me, owner and Commissioner makes is much like if you're gonna make an argument for owner, then I'm gonna make an argument for a commission now. Governor. Okay, go, go. We're both governors. Are you govern the governor's governor governor governor governor governor governor? But there's also an English version of governor. Got. Whatever code for blow job is yes. Indeed, mary. Poppins. That's what that means. Then you may start sweeping caliph Reggie list chimney. All right. Let's see little piece of business here, and then we'll take a break, and we'll do some news. Castrol edge, you can tweet us at Adam Corolla show with your hashtag Castro challenge with your questions for cash real challenge brought to you by Castrol edge formulated with fluid titanium technology reduces friction engine performance and help center before it's times, three times stronger viscosity breakdown leading full synthetic. What are you got mex- better Aaron road. Hashtag casual challenge. She says, I don't have a Twitter account. But she emailed us asking them to explain why IMSA and llama racing is always prototype in GT cars racing. Samll tain. He's clearly the prototype. Cars are much faster and have to continually pass the GT cars. What's the point? Well, I don't think they wanna do to. Twenty four hours of Lamont. They don't want to be the forty eight hours Lama, so they let everyone go at once they've always done it that way, but they divide by class or no. They stink. They divide they divided by class, in terms of who wins GT class wins the prototype class, but when they're on the track everyone's just racing and the guys in the prototypes, are hauling aunts. And the guys in the GT's are going fast. Fully built corvette racecar fully built nine eleven Porsche fully built for our of three four eighty eight whatever. But you, you really get an appreciation for the prototype when they hit them all on straight, and the guy just flies past him in the prototype. And that guy's driving the fastest car in GT that you've ever seen. That's part of the challenge is like, how do you negotiate these slower guys out there? I think the biggest problem comes in when the two prototypes are racing. And the one prototype makes it past the GT, and then they start setting up for the corner and the other guy in the prototype doesn't want the slower guy in between them because he's going to take off if you've got now you gotta pass that slower guy. And so a lot of guys will push it to try to stay on the tail of the fast guy, the racing with and not let the slow guy who still going fast get in between them, and that's that's racing. Can I ask a question you mentioned the MAs classes, what, what? Oh, twenty four hour. Large class you go. Fair question. Once you get the twelve hours of Seib ring, you go see section. I did their gaming guys. All guys. The hand look through a screen. Oh. Oh, rain. Actually just beat a pro. Or now they've done. They're now doing a thing. That's right. I think at Loma and other versions of endurance racing where it's like a three man team, and they are taking one gaming guy and putting the gaming guy in the real car he's had so many countless hours on the simulator at Loma or Spar or or Daytona or whatever the track is few got five million hours going around a track. Virtually but everything, and I've talked I've talked to the I mean I've gotten into gotten into it with the forts guys before. I mean every pebble every tree every crack and the road when those guys they're detail. It's no longer. You know, stick figure Fred Flintstones. It's like you're in that the seats vibrating the cars, the wheels move, and so you get a guys a million laps at Loma. And then you get a you know, he has to get acquainted with the. Equipment, but you, you get the practice and those cars are video games. Now. I mean the steering wheels. And it's not what it used to be, then this guys could go out and do that. Yeah. I bet they could do the same thing in a fighter jet agree. Why do we have simulators for pilots? Into the whole thing, why have pilots and we're getting the well. If you're a drone shutdown down over. That's right. I was an automated, right with some piloting it automated. Well he lost that race. That's. Joan about that. I don't know. I just be nice for name is Joe droning Joan. All right. We'll take a. Yeah. Look into that max, Pat. Or what was it? Let's see. I think at Lamont. I think some team talk. Well, look where we go. And of course, we're going here. You don't have to. It's not daredevil shit anymore where you're not shifting and flying by the cedar pants. It's a space. You're in and whoever can operate the spaceship better, not the crop duster. But the, the spaceship future kind of guy sat in that cockpit for million hours going around that track. It's going to have an advantage. I mean. Back in the day, when Paul Newman showed up to do Lamont, and seventy nine. He add a few days to learn the track. Like he had to go learn track. I mean, he could look at a chalkboard with the drawing of the track on it, but he had to go learn the track. It takes a while. All right. Let's take ourselves our minds. Are we about to go to break? We'll take a break. We're going to get kicked out. No. Okay. Because I just wanted to to, you know promote our. Oh. Podcast. Oh, yeah. We'll pour about it. Okay. Because that's what we what we were talking about that video game stuff. They'll our whole idea for the podcast is to for the regular people out there who aren't super hardcore video games at the kinda wanna know about the space. And that's, that's all it is. That's, that's what we're talking about on our podcast. So it's great to, to be able to, you know, bring some of that here is really cool. Good questions. We'll be back. We're not going anywhere. G g podcasts. New app says Wednesdays on apple podcasts and podcasts one. All right. Quick break. Then we'll come back. We'll do the news with Rick and chase. The price tag on that. Hip new pair of jeans never says about forty dollars a box of mini marshmallow. Puffed cereal isn't starting at four ninety nine. So is the price of a new car such a guessing game at Hyundai? It's possible to know the price of the car, you want up front. We call it transparent pricing, and it's just one part of our all new shopper assurance program, designed to save you time hassle and headache. Because shouldn't find your new car enjoyable as driving home car buying eighties year. It's possible with Hyundai shopper assurance. Visit Hyundai USA dot com slash shopper shirts for program. Details. There's a difference between do it yourself and do it for a living at the Home Depot. We get that. And we're hued help froze, get the job done with the products and brands for us technology to keep your job on track job site delivery, to save you time at both pricing on over four thousand items every day to save you money when you've got a job, we're on the job. The Home Depot. More saving. More doing. Muller to testify. I'm Jacky Quin with an AP news minute, we're getting word special counsel, Robert Muller will testify publicly next month before house panels that are investigating President Trump and his associates, the houses poised to approve four point five billion dollars in humanitarian aid to care for migrants, especially children being detained at the border house speaker Nancy Pelosi addresses GOP, critics, who want more enforcement measure. It's not this fail. What Bill can provide aid to these children? President Trump was asked about detention conditions little food, water or supervision, very concerned, and that much better than they were under President Obama by far California, Republican congressman Duncan Hunter facing new charges of illegally using campaign funds. Prosecutors allege. He was financing at least five extra marital affairs. This is the tenth anniversary of Michael Jackson's death. I'm Jacky Quin.