19 Episode results for "George Raveling"

Coach George Raveling on This Unique Moment in Time, How to Practice Self-Leadership, Navigating Difficult Conversations, and Much More (#438)

The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

1:18:11 hr | 1 year ago

Coach George Raveling on This Unique Moment in Time, How to Practice Self-Leadership, Navigating Difficult Conversations, and Much More (#438)

"Optimal. Altitude I can run flat out. And start shaking. Question. Now it! Time. Organism living tissue metal skeleton. Hello Ladies and gentlemen. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show this powerful and unusual episode featuring coach George Raveling, who made his first appearance on the podcast in two thousand eighteen right now I'm looking at a tweet from a Listener Ryan, m who called it his favorite podcast of all time, that type of feedback came in again and again for personally he was one of the most impactful interviews I've ever done. And I came out of it walking on air effectively co traveling is really much more than a coach sports. He is a coach of life and has led many people through difficult decisions. Difficult periods difficult. Difficult transitions we covered a lot of ground in that first interview, including how coach Raveling came to own the original copy of Dr Martin Luther King Junior's I have a dream speech. How has practice team ended up beating the nineteen eighty-four US Olympic Dream Team basketball? How helped convince Michael Jordan to sign with Nike and much much more you can find it by going to teamed up log forward slash George Raveling Rav. E L I N G. I strongly encourage you to listen to that conversation. When you can about coaches, life, philosophies and lessons learned. I invited George back on the podcast to hear his thoughts on everything. That is happening right now. These are obviously very difficult and uncertain times for millions of people, and my heart goes out to each and every person navigating the depths of sadness, anger, fear and many other emotions right now as you'll hear in today's episode could traveling has great hope. He seen many changes in his lifetime, and we can all strive to be the positive change agents that he implores us to be before we get to today's conversation. Here's a very brief bio which barely scratches the surface coach George Raveling on twitter at George Raveling, an eighty two year, old living, Legend and Nike's former Director of international basketball coach Raveling was the first african-american head. Head basketball coach in the PAC eight now PAC twelve on August, twenty, eighth, nineteen, sixty, three at age, twenty six, while volunteering as security at the march on Washington raveling humbly became the guardian of what we now know. As Dr Martin Luther King Junior's I have a dream speech coach Raveling is held head coaching positions at Washington State University of Iowa and USC following a prolific basketball coaching career. He joined Nike at the request of Phil Knight where he played an integral role in signing a reluctant Michael Jordan. He's also been inducted into the night Smith. Memorial Basketball Hall of fame and the National Collegiate Basketball Hall of fame. Please enjoy this timely and timeless conversation with coach George Raveling. Coach I. Appreciate You taking time to record this. Follow up to our conversation. It is June seventh, twenty, twenty, following the death of George. Floyd a lot is happening. How or where would you like to start? I would like to start with a prayer. Please do do merciful God. We come before you on this day. To request you compassionately welcome. George Floyd. Into Your heavenly kingdom! Please restores breath. His heartbeat! He'll is wounds. Allow him to live the lives. He was denied on our. God. Showers, some of your richest gifts on the Floyd family. Give them the strength doing these challenging times. Their God. Answered George is dying requests for his mother. please. Fleas. Tonight, Then one more time. And finally dear Lord. We ask you. To Bring Comfort. And understanding. So the multitude of families. Who have suffered? The. Loss of their own loved ones. During these times of social change. We make this request in your name. Amen. Amen Thank you for that. Georgia I find myself. In a very different place than I normally would in these conversations I typically come in with a long list of questions have typically done a lot of homework on the personnel be speaking with, and we've already had one very very long conversation and covered lot, but this is really. A An afternoon where I would like do more listening than anything else and I just love to hear from you what you're. What you're observing or what you'd like to share about yourself as a way of entering into this conversation, one of the things that you might find intriguing Tim. Is that I have. Had what I call a stop strategy. And I've had this for years and years and years and I feel it so applicable to contemporary times and the things. We're dealing with now I. think each of us are given one life to live. And each was had fundamental responsibility. To protect that vice and protect ourselves from deaths, and when I have conversations with myself. I say to myself. I must never forget. This. Reality! I am black. Forever. And my number one goal. is to stay alive. You know I'm eighty eighty two year old black man. And I drive a a black Alexis as you week. and. Does I feel I have to have a stop strategy? What do I do? If I'm pulled over by police. I've got to turn off the motor. I'M GONNA. Turn on the PLO and I. Add some overt evidence. What took place? I'M GONNA roll the window down. I'M GONNA put my hands high up on the steering wheel so. It'll be obvious that I don't have anything in my hands. I'll be polite. I'll be overly polite. Now say yes, sir, no sir. Yes, ma'am, no ma'am! And there's a request made for my license I'll ask for permission to reach into my pocket and pull it out. I'll give them my dragush license and I'll also give them. An Old Faculty ID card that I had from when I was coaching at USA. And then I'll pray. And at that moment I always have one objective. And that is to stay alive. And Ten. Raleigh. It comes a time when you're. When you, you been a black person. Where we have to be. Funded with this reality in that reality is that? We're black forever. But you know what the burden of being black is something that I've wealth. And hopefully. It'll bring out the best in me. The very best in me, and and when all is said and done. The, only the only true. Validation I see. Is Myself Validation. I've grown to understand that I if it's just senseless for me to struggle for America's validation. If I do that Jim I'm always going to be chasing ghosts. And so that's why as an eighty two year old. Black male. I understand the importance and relevance of having what I call a stop strategy, and have you ever had to use that? Have you used it outside is? Do you have other stop strategies for outside of the automobile? How else what other strategies have you carried with yourself throughout life as a black male? Do any come to mind. As your relationship to be in stopped by a policeman I simple as as I've been pulled over I on Thomson, and and can be totally transparent if it was if I ran a light or I added speeding ticket. I clearly understand that, but I also recognize that there is a protocol that law Westwood has engage in, and so I'm not gonNA. Ever assume that that my life is not at at risk and so I I WANNA BE I WANNA be prepared when when I, if something like that. Happens. Sadly. I feel like. I'd reached a point in life. Where I have to live my life on defense I've gotta worry more about someone else's. deportment our behavior, then my own. and. I realized that as a said. Out Forever be black, so I have to expect that. There's going to be certain preconceived ideas about me as a black male. People's people saying they know me, Tim? But they don't. They don't really know me. and. I can honestly say you in my lifetime. that. Most people have never really tried to know me. They have a surface impression of May and may be one of our challenges is to try to better understand each other I. Don't put an indictment on people, but I feel guilty. That I think I. Need to know people. I need. I need to feel their paying ninety two to to understand that they're carrying somebody else's cross. And you've instant impressions, misconceptions I want to mention for people who perhaps didn't listen to part one because I imagine a lot of people will jump to this very timely as of recording conversation, we're having now, but you own probably more than a hundred thousand dollars worth of black collectibles, including figurines books postcards first addition of Uncle Tom's cabin, and some of these are very derogatory. Black person eating watermelon with a smile on his face on a postcard for instance and some of the notes themselves written on those postcards are very derogatory and I remember from our first conversation. You started to build this historic. That you could have a legacy for your children and their children. Why is that I? Say That one. This story. To. I need a constant reminder. Of of times gone by and how we shall. We arrived at where we are today. I, I I used to go to compose to postcard antique shows, and and now it go and search out the vendors who who sold postcards I. I have over a thousand dollars. And back to the point Tim when you have to put a stay on them. And the one common denominator album all. His derogatory itches on black folks. Eating order melon, big lips smiling like we're the subtle. References, are influences. By the they happy they're, NOT BEWILDERED Look Look, look we. We treat him. Good look, they smile. And then they remind me also. To tell a story of this long journey of inequity and injustice in so I, I collected the cards I mean if you if you were to to read some of the messages on their their abominable. But it show it remind me of the long road. We've travel and the long road that we still have to travel to become who we say. We are I say something to that. That's been a little bit surprising to me, Is And it's somewhat of a personal phenomena. But as addition moment. That we speak. I can I get a report to you that eighty five percent. Of My white friends associates. Five, not call me. And so I think begs some questions to do. I think you're obligated absolutely nuts. And my mad. I'm disappointed no! Do I think it would be helpful. Yes. So then the question is why I think it's another overt example in my opinion is because people don't know what to say. I get it. Most of us are not ready. And, we're not good. At having real conversations, we're not good. At having difficult conversations. because. Real conversations challenge us. Real conversations, and difficult. Conversations in my opinion. They make us stand in our own truth. And they teach us that we have to be to tellers. And we got. We got listened to learn. Not only that I think we, we have to learn check as. Intelligent questions. We. Are Two sided. We are the problem. And we OUGHTA solution. We, you and I have chatted recently, and you've mentioned the importance of honest conversations and one thing you've. You've mentioned to me that I'd love to hear you. Elaborate on as you said on his conversations with others and honest conversations with ourselves. What do you mean by that well? First of all Jim when someone says, Hey, a coach or Georgia. I wanted to meet with you. I WANNA. Can I have a I'd like to talk to you about some to. So immediately. I go. And start to have a conversation with myself and the first thing I say to myself. Is going to be a conversation, or is this GonNa? Be a debate? Because it is totally different. You know. Some people. That they frame it as a as. A conversation, but it really becomes a debate because it's a debate, it's about winning and losing. It's about right and wrong, and I surrender right from the beginning. I'll gladly say you're right. I'm not because I. You get into the conversation and the sole ten is the proved to you that they are right and you are raw. Hopefully they can get you to be who they they want you to be that they like. They want you to think I think. To have a real conversation. But first thing versions got to do. Is they've got the have have the willingness to stand in their own truth. and. They've got to be willing to to tell the truth. And I believe people have to listen to learn and to understand God knows that there is ever in time in our lives, and we need to listen to learn and understand it's. It's at this time right now. And another thing that I think to have a real conversation as That's govern. are talked to listen ratio and go back to put more clarity on the question that you asked. I think. Some of the most important conversations we can have each day or two conversations that we have with ourselves. There's basically two conversations way engage in conversations with others and the conversation with does selves and and I do believe that probably the most important conversations we'll have. It are the conversations we have with ourselves when we listen to our inner voice, and and we talk and many ways I believe right now to the most important words in the English language our way in us as a society. I would really like to see us have more conversations. About? Life and death and writing raw. I really think we do ourselves disturbance when we don't. Deal with the fundamentals in the fundamentals of life, and there's nothing more fundamental than allies. And what gives one woman being? The the Dash T to think that they have the right. It takes someone else's life. What is it? That would make one human being. Totally devalue. And, just respect the life of another human, being regardless of what. Color they are. It's just human arrogance that that one could be so disrespectful of the greatest gift of all the gift of life, and why don't we have conversations around the that fundamental aspect and why is it that we don't have meaningful discussions about? For Riding Long I didn't. As some ways, Tim I think each of us tend see them world to our own lenses. I don't know. Maybe maybe it'd be helpful if we would attempt to see the world through the Lens of others. I know one thing quiz shore. It would give us a balanced perspective of just going to say and I think it also making an attempt to do that. Can defuse some of the reactivity or emotion that can escalate things and caused greater problems and one thing you said to me in our last conversation. Was that an? I'm paraphrasing here, so please feel free to correct. It relates to what you just said you said. If you start white and black or white versus black, black versus white immediately, many people on both sides are going to be in the defensive, and it's going to become like you said earlier a debate, and would it not be more helpful to try to go to a higher level where you can find some? Shared experiences shared Important questions. To to to at least begin the conversation so that not everyone is. In debate form and and reactive so I just wanted to to echo that because it came to mind as you're speaking. A hard call reality is this. That many days we spend more time talking to screen than we do face to. Human being! And I've Kinda grown in the latter years of my life to understand. that. I'm a product of an educational system. That was based on. Telling me. What to do, and what the think? Instead of teaching me how to think. And so much of my time now. Is Meant. Fine to teach myself. How does thing? And There's so much time that I I have to make up. Because of the fact that. I didn't ever really understand the relevance or importance of being able to sing, because someone always told me what does. And in many ways you. As a black person growing up. And a variety of ways there's always someone telling you. We know what's best for you. I don't know what's best for me. Than how to help. Somebody else thinks they know what's best for me If you flashback to the Civil Rights Movement for people who may have. Jumped ahead and skipped. coversation you own the original copy of the what later became known as the I have a dream speech, Dr Martin Luther King Junior handed you this speech himself, as he came off of the Diet because you were, you ended up through an amazing story, which people listen to part one for you ended up working security as a volunteer and were handed this speech, so you've you've been in the thick of so many defining moments in. The history of this country, certainly as it relates to civil rights, what are some of the differences that you see or commonalities that you see when you look back at your experience in the civil rights movement and you look at what's happening right now. I. I think that. I. Keep going back every day and have these inner conversations with myself about. Life. And Death. and. That's one thing that hasn't changed his. For a lot of worse. It's still. Lives and desk. I? Remember watching a documentary on television and. It was about to the lunch counter demonstrations in Greensboro in years gone by. And the leader of the the demonstrators they were having a meeting in church. And at the. Of, the meeting. The leader said. Two demonstrators, he said. Before, you all leave. I need you to do something. I need you to. The HUG everybody. In this room. And tell them that you love him. He said. And I want every one of you. Can do it. No matter how long it takes! and. I want to tell them goodbye. He said. Because tomorrow night we'll be. Some y'all ain't going be here. and. It's goes back to that same thing. Our lives. And I. This day I'm so startled. At the courage those students had. I don't know. When I was eighteen or nineteen or twenty. And I was a student at will over. If I would have the courage. To put my life on the line. And No! Tomorrow night. I might not be bad. And Tim so much as We would like saying. It's about black and white it is. But, it's it's about life. It's about human life and. I I see. I don't know if I could have done it. I don't know if I. If I if I had to I'm sure I would martin, Luther King used to say if a man or woman hasn't found something in life. They're willing to die Ford. And maybe they're not fit to live, and there comes that seminal moment. Every one of our lives where we have to say to is so. I live. For? Do Are I. And so it it's tough. You know you something just popped into my mind. You're asking me about about the selections in that and. Something popped in my mind I just I think if we don't understand our past him in our president. Then, there'll be no future. And so there's symbolic. Evidence of the past. But, if I don't understand my pets and my president I have no future. When you think about building a future, and it's crafting a path towards a future that is better than today. One distinction that that you've drawn in our previous conversations is group leadership versus I think you put it a self leadership. Could you speak to what that means. If, you were to go into the vast room in my house right now him. In the middle of the the mirror in the mirror, not in in the main bathroom is is probably six well, maybe not sixty raving four four feet long, and that's a very rectangular. And in the middle of it I have signed up there. And I watch too. So I have to see every day every morning and every evening. In Times throughout the day in the signs simply says. Practice. And then the underneath it. It has to statements, south leadership. And Self. And I don't think that there's. Any more. Vulgar on court with time. In practice those. Would he say in rightfully so that we're lacking leadership? I've asked numerous in my friends over the last few months. Tim this question. Tell me who you think are the five grade is leaders on the globe right now and none of can be a corporate executive. And I have not had one single person who could get past three days. And, so I say that it's over evidence that. That are in the midst of leadership. Crisis de-emphasis. But I do know. That if one were to go to the Library Congress and look books on leadership, then we'd be over three thousand books written on leadership, but those both. All speak to group, leadership Three or four books on self leadership Robert Greenlees Focus, probably the most competent This is This is the forty eight laws of power by Robert Greene. Not Robbie greeting. This is a book of I certainly. And it's on self leadership. And so to me. If, you can't lead yourself. How in the world are you going to lead anybody else? And For many of us the only person wherever you're GONNA get the leaders ourself in so I can. Continue to say we have bad leadership. We lack leadership chat. But I have a responsibility to lead myself in these times of turmoil. and. Then the second part of that signs is to be self disciplined. And Show I think. If nothing else I have to serve as they. Over example I'm someone. Who? Recognize the need for leadership and recognize that I can control myself leadership and I can exercise myself. Discipline and so so much of my life as as never changed him. Most of my life. Has Been Governed by a simple form would. Survive. And Thrive. I mean if I could take him back. To, June, twenty seven. Nineteen thirty seven. And a little, a little black boy! Was Born in the basement of his segregated hospital. In Washington DC. and. The gave that baby the name George. And he was born in. The basement of the segregated. It'll. Call, Garfield and there was an in Florida adding it. Blacks were only could enter. The hospital from from the back and they had to go down to the basement. And so the first breath. As a human being that that breed. Was Air from the air. On segregation. And from that point on. I've had. Throughout. How do I? Survive when I was growing up in Washington DC. The city was seventy three percent black. Today, it's forty five percent black, the lowest it's. It's slipped under fifty percent for the first time in fifty years. When you hear of people used connotation chocolate city. Washington DC was a original. Chocolate city with seventy three percent of the population. And so, this black boy child Georgia Raveling lives over. A meat market and Auburn League market on the second floor. There was three apartments and none of Madda a bathroom. There was the bathroom at the end of the hallway. That had a commode. Sink. and. There's three. Families who lived in those apartments? We had to learn. To be so this glint. We had the practice of leadership. We had to figure out how three families could use one Komo one thing. And one bad. But we made it. We made it work. and. Then we we lived on the corner of Florida new in church yet no and You Walk. From from there to what is now the university? But at that time when I was young boy. Washington had a baseball team called the Washington. Senators and people were fond to say and I in war first in peace and last Sunday Merck and Lee. But they play their games in Griffin, stadium and I walk to Griffin Stadium from my where I live. And, so I used to walk up there. And I got a job selling scorecards. And the old days in baseball. He didn't have the technology and so forth, and so that the fans would have scorecard, and they would keep this data and the and the score on his scorecard, and so what you did. She stood outside the stadium us and US soul scorecards in pencils. And I also tried to deliver or did delivered newspapers to make. some little extra money. In those days tim? If. You were black. You didn't have the luxury jury something. When you're located, you dream every dream you're GONNA be coaches. So even for a black person in those days was the luxury. You got up every morning and you look out world and the toast stands, and you've tried to figure out. How can I survive? You had no dreams you had no owes. It was literally all about surviving from day to day. And here I am. At Age. Eighty two. and. I still. Grapple with the same thing. How. United Survive. And how? Can I drive? Here I am in the reality, is this. I'm an eighty two year old. Black male of former basketball coach. And so the challenge for me is. How can I remain relevant? Changing world. And what is it that I don't know? But I need to know. Stay relevant. is different times and different faces in different places, but. The. Fundamental has change. How do I survive? and. Thrive, and and you are A. Voracious reader I mean your your nickname. Which people might remember from the first conversation is the the human google you you have read. Thousands upon thousands of books, and just to just to clarify you mentioned the name Robert Greenleaf is that the books are just pulled it up here. Servant Leadership Subtitle A Journey Nature. And the House, a journey into the nature of legitimate power and greatness which. Has. Has Been a classic. It looks like for twenty five years at this point Are there any other books that have helped you in developing your own ability to self lead or to improve self? To any other. Resources or practices come to mind that you found particularly helpful. One of the books that I found helpful, and and when I say helpful is I. Read something in a book that causes me to change my behavior then I feel I really found something unique and special. I. Read a book many years ago by mark McCormick caught things. They don't teach at Harvard Business School. And? It's always been one of my my favorite The true believer by Eric Hoffer was another book. There's tons of books I could name I. Tell You this. Book on Reading Right now I would. As all of our listeners to divide this book. and it's called. Show me who you are. It should be mandatory reading for anyone who wants to understand why we are in the situation. We are today not from the pandemic. And all of the other areas of inequity in our social system. I don't want to come. Too much about the book written by two women. Physician. Extraordinary Book and and I thought I knew a lot about racial injustice I thought I understood a lot of things. About the least of God's choking. But when I read this book. It's very hard for me to read more three pages and I. Don't start to cheer up. But if you buy this book? Fight with the intent to learn and understand. Otherwise if you're just buying it for entertainment, don't buy it. It's a book that's going to cause you to have difficult conversations with yourself as a book. That's going to reveal what I call the other America. There's a actually was a book written that which was the the emphasis for the war on poverty was a book written called the other America by Michael, Harrington and So I borrowed that phrase the other America. There's ING America out there that we don't know. But we need to know about. I. Don't go to let young ladies. Who wrote the book I I I'm not trying to promote. or sell books. I'm just trying to tell you if you really really want to understand. And you want to learn. You gotTA. Read this book. and. You don't have to read it all at once. Cuts. It's GonNa, be hard to do because. The because you cry. You're. GonNa feel guilty. You'RE GONNA. You'RE GONNA. Say Wow, how one person shreen another person like this! The tell me who you are is spy WINONA. Chico and Preah Volta I'll certainly linked to that. In the show notes for this this conversation as well so people will be able to find that at tim dot blogs slash podcast and just search your name. The question I'd love to explore. Georgia's what you would say to people right now. Who are really angry? Because as you said you some of these first person accounts, certainly, many people have had personal experiences. That are just reflective of such gross injustice. Such mistreatment and you have a lot of people right now. Who are angry of of all different colors and creeds? Would you say to people who are feeling consume by anger at the moment I would want to. Ask questions and I WOULD WANNA listen. I would want to understand in greater depth. Why they're angry, because I don't want to assume the obvious, the obvious, never the obvious. The problem is that we think is never never thought once you attack the problem what you've got was. The real problem was never the real problem once you get going, discover the real problem so I. WanNa. Listen and I want to understand and not assume that I know why. This person is angry and. I think. In many ways. All of us date to be angry and we need to be befuddling that. because. I truly believe that. We live in the country. And we we live a lot. And what I mean by that is. Is You pick up our paper currency. It says United States of among. If you go back to the framer. The framers say we the people. But in many ways we're living a lie. Because we're not. Who We say we are. We're not united. And it's not about the people and. These lies Kim that. They're just going to hold, US hostage. But the truth. Will free us and to me. The system is built. To separate us. Not just by raise, the system is built. To marginalize us. We talk about red states and blue states and foreign Belton, rust, belt, and Democrats and Republicans, and Conservatives and tea parties, rich people and We're all. These boxes that someone wants to put us in an all these labels. America needs to world labels. Everything's gotta gotTa have a label on it. And so my fundamental question is this. Why Does there have to be vox. Boxes have, four wall. And at some point they solo with four walls limits my movement. So why? Do I have to operate from a box. The first thing intelligence tells me if I'm in a box, it impedes my ability to reach for my out or sissy human being. So if we allow people to keep us in boxes, how will one ever reached their outer limits? How will? Ever! Be Able to answer the question who am I? I don't get a chance to explore my out of limits. How do I know who I am? And why I'm honored. And what is it that I'm capable of being so in many ways? In this country. Where living a lie. We've gotta get back to a point where we are who we say, we are where either united or not united. It's either about we. The people are not about weed the people. Has in common language of America. became. Not an English but money. Art Language. Should not be the line with a money. And I just get. I! Say to myself that I. Do really believe this at eighty two years old. I'm finally got my. To do I want to give them when I wanted to do it and how I wanted to do it? I'm freed it. To try to. Discover my outer limits I'm to be. Cool. God meant for me. I honestly and truly believe. that. The last couple years in my life. I can honestly. Kind of CEO. What Martin Luther King. Said when he spoke at the steps of the. Lincoln Memorial. Free at last. Re as Thank God money I'm create lights. There's the first time. That in my existence on this planet that I could authentically believe. that. I'm afraid human being that I can pursue. My outer limits. What changed why? What was the catalyst or the realization realization was? That the system is bill to. Create average people. You go to school. You get an average education. You get an average You live in an average neighborhood. You live at average amount of time. and. And the world. Is populated. Way Average peak. and. I'm so glad that I live long enough. That I could feel. The necessity to be on calm. In some ways, maybe board. As one God the least of his children. But. I've been truly blessed beyond this planet. For eighteen years. and. I'll be able to die. Knowing? that. I didn't die. In the societal box. That was a free enough. Try to reach for my my outer limits, and to explore that phrase a bit exploring your outer limits. I it seems to imply to me both in awareness of the box that you've been put in or put yourself in a willingness to try to transcend that. What does that Look Lake? Does it look like broad reading? Does it look like uncommon action for you? Personally what has? Your outer limits looked like it's all. Built around. A fundamental question that I have to ask myself time and time again. What is it? That I don't know. But I need to know. What is it that I don't know? But need to know. When I was a student at zone over and and was on basketball. Scholarship are are closer to towards one time in. And they'd be left an indelible mark on my brain with this quote. First sign of intelligence is to admit that we don't know something. So I'm trying to find out. What it is that I don't know. But I need to know. Sorted I can have relevance on remaining time I'm here. On, the Globe and That's simple process. You've gotta take the fences down around you because as long as people can fences around you thinking. Keep you where they want and they want you to be average. And I don't WanNa. Be I. WANNA be uncommon. Is Part of. A leading question, but I'm curious. Is Part of. Keeping those fences down, not applying to many labels to yourself. I just think I'm thinking back to the list that you gave earlier liberal progressive this that a versus B. C. Versus de because I've never I don't think I've ever heard you use. Any of those labels applied to yourself. At least in our in our conversation that we've had. I don't know if that's just because of the nature of the conversations that we've had But. Are there other ways that you? Keep the, fences down. Yeah, because the first thing is to recognize, that is offense. people in Sam when when someone is quick to put a label on you and encourage you to live in this box. The first thing he's got a real start to do is start asking. You have a conversation with yourself and start asking. Questions. And so. To me. I'm aware of these fences and and I I. To allow US someone to build a fence around the. because. Intentionally or unintentionally I'm about to come to a standstill, because the more people that are in that box them the the less my mobility is. And I think. We also. What the thing that I've been telling myself about. What is it that I don't know? But I need to know how. I've come to recognize that. I need to. Develop, twenty first century skills. Strange, when you get to be eighty two and you start thinking about this, but once again when I asked that question. How can I stay relevant if I'm going to be relevant? I've got to be able to develop twenty first century skills and. Unanticipated you saying well coach! What our twenty first century skills are I think you have to develop the skills. That are transferable. and sustainable in the twenty first century there's there's so obviously leadership and communication, and just all communication, but written communication relationships. As long as we live, there's going to have to be leaner shifts. We're going to have to communicate. We're going to have to have relationships problem solving decision making information literacy critical big tests. Are we go on? The teamwork analytical thinking. What I try to do is take one of those. And for six months read as much as I can about what? Soda can better understand. How I can quit myself because I've. To take the vincents down, I gotTa have I. I gotTa Call Down or or our. And I. Looked down. I got to get rid of forever and so. One side, take those fences down I can't. Pop the Cork and they want. All of this is free of my ability of of movement. And so now I got an I've got a a quick myself with these twenty first century skills particularly. At eighty two years old. because. The last thing. I want to be as a relic. And and protect myself from becoming a relic. I, got I got to be able to compete. And ended twenty-first-century I gotta be able to compete with young people, not all. I need I need to compete with young people. I. Mean Understand Young People these young people. Are Huge. And I feel bad for our young people because. They're the ones that again inherited dismiss. And they're the ones that are going to have to. Fix It. And I I feel so bad for our our our grandchildren and children, and and generally these young people. were, leaving a mess on. And they and they're gonNA. They're gonNA. Have to excel these skills. because. They're the ones who are GONNA. Have to figure out. What to do this mess that we must on doors to. What one of the one of the things I enjoy about? Our interactions. Georgia's that you're you're a man of ideas and concepts, but you're also of action. You do a lot and it's. It's informed action. There are millions of people right now. I'm sure probably tens hundreds of millions who are unsure of what to do, and perhaps also afraid of doing the wrong thing and. I'd be curious to know. If you have any advice for people who are. Feeling a need to do something, but don't know what to do. Of course we see. We've seen a lot of statements that have been issued. If you have any thoughts on statements what form, they should take if any just love to hear your thoughts for those who feel like they should or need to do something, but are unsure of what to look two days one. What can one do just be simple? Just let it start with yourself. Start with you and and do your part. I want I'm going to. Come back to this public statement thing, but what what? I would like the as. And you this is is a partial energy. To what can we do? I would. Like the as each of those who are listening to. This Interview. Take a pledge. I would like you to write this down and take display if you WanNa know what you can do. Is this. And the pledges I encourage. I'm going to encourage each of our listeners to do this and the pledges I will fully commit. To being a positive change at. A positive difference maker. And in many lives as possible. Doesn't take money and it doesn't matter what race you are. Is just a simple pledge is got to start. Correcting the wrongs have to start with our behavior. And as say that again I got if you ever wanted to do something. For me, just take this pledge and live I will fully commit. To being a positive change agent. A positive difference maker, and then and as many lives as possible. He don't have to be rich you. It doesn't make any difference if your core doesn't make any difference if you're black or white. You can control. Nobody can take this away from this Nobody can take this commitment away from you to be a positive change agent to be a positive difference maker to be kind of people. It might not change the world. But if you say one might. That one life will have a rippling effect, and it'll save another license another life another life, and before you know, it will wake up one morning. And, we will have made significant change into into world. In this place. We call America. That's what I would not do as you say. What Can Persian Jew? That's my answer to that that the public statement thing honestly I'd kind of grown, were of corporate and organizational speed got enough. In my attended most of its insincere anyway and blacks and substance coming. These statements are really solution based. In a so called statements to me in many ways are very evidence of our. Inability to tell the truth What what do you? What do you mean by, is it? There's a there's a difference tim between his statement and the message see that's the thing everybody runs around. I can't believe how many corporate is executives organizational people feel like they have to make a statement I've had friends called and say hey. I gotTa make a statement. What should I say? And and the ones who ask you that I said the first thing is, don't make a statement. Give Up. Make a message. Message is color story that that data resignation with the listeners. Messages are a commitment. You know. all. When it's all said and done. Our words must be manifested with in our behave. Anything shorter that. And we live in a lot. And I just think. At some point. We can make all statements we want. But the reality is that we have to rise to a higher moral level. As corporations. Today. I don't know. Me Personally I I appreciate. Their their their paper occurs. But what I really think that society trimark Mark Corporations. is their intellectual. Currency I think history is. Replete with evidence that throwing money at the problem Israeli. GonNa, be. Dissolution one of the questions I have with with his money. Part is comma. Summit will be specifically used. To enrich the lives of our young people and their futures because we're leaving leaving them From a magic, the clean up. I think that. What I would like to to do is to tap into the intellectual. Currency. Of of Corporate Americans and and they they've got some of the most elite thinkers on the planet. incorporations and so. A group of corporations come together in a collaborative manner. and. Create. Programs. To help enrich the lives of our young people and help prepare our young people to successfully deal with this mess that we're lean. Can corporations create. Mentor program, so somebody's are raised their hand. Say We have one. Can they create intern programs. Can they utilize their intellectual currency to help young people develop these twenty first century skills Can they provide? Technology. And the technology tools. Such as laptops and computers for young people. Can we teach young people how to they? God knows if there's ever something that we could do. That would help young people is to teach him how to think stop teaching them. What thing teach him? How thing? We've got some of the greatest minds on the planet house in these corporations. and. I just think that they have. A moral obligation. To target the lease God's children. I think are young children out there. There are pregnant with possibilities for greatness. But we gotTA help discovery. Came in my in my lifetime in this is not an indictment on my parents. There was never a time in my life when my mom, my dad, my grandma and said to me shortage when you grow up. You're going to go to college. La Never finished school how they gonNa things that your son I mean their their child legitimate of going to college it was it they black. People couldn't dream like that in those days. But we, we H-. There's so many undiscovered. Young folks out there. They need somebody to say a simple phrase. I. Believe in you. You. Know, how many kids have never had, a human beings say to them. I believe in you. Corporate America can put together all these things. and. They don't just have to say. I believe in you, but they can put the programs together that allow that person to believe in themselves. I will. Never fully buy into throwing money at it. It's the answer. He just made me think George that if I. IF I try to canvass. Everyone I've interviewed on this podcast. Close to five hundred people now I would say the. One of the commonalities would have to be that at some point. Someone said I believe in you. Maybe it wasn't in childhood, but at some point some mentor some. father, figure, mother, figure or supporter said. I believe in you. Of raises a lot of a lot of questions and also brings to mind a lot of possible actions. for as you. and to it's not sufficient say. I believe that you. Don't don't let your your your and then you'd behavior. To to reflect what you just said I believe that there's definitely than mentioned of goodness in an intellect and all of us, but. I. Don To Villanova. I wasn't in charge. Nominate I found myself intellectually. How do they know who I was I didn't really understand how important it was to be. Go nowhere to be a student and learn I remember it so vividly. By Sophomore Year I? Because when I went to Donald, you had to wear shirt and tie that class and you and you had to sit by Alphabet, Saudi. Temporal Road and Graduated with a BS economics, but It wasn't until my sophomore year I started to find myself intellectually I. Hear You, you say. That guy's really smart man. He. He should get him to help you and. And there would be. A number people in my is that people would get. DINOVITE is being really smart, and so I would listen to them, and I would have served them and honestly. Tim and myself talk. There were a number of times when I said. So I think I'm as smart as him. And now is the beginning. of May trying to discover myself intellect showing. I didn't have a frame of reference. No one ever told me that I was smart. No one ever told me that I. only way I ended up in college was because the fastball on the scholarship? I didn't really understand it all. I if there if I had to do it all over, I honestly believe I could have been honest. I didn't understand it. I didn't know that I could get. Education could take me to place it and helped me. Learn how to be a better human being. He took a long time I. I, kind kinda been running from behind. Most of my life of Guy told me one time for man gets behind in a race. He must forever remain behind her run fasted in the man in front, and then I've been on the run for about the last forty years. It's an incredible life story. I mean I know how you have managed. To to Cram so much into your lifetime, which granted is eighty two years thus far, but it's still a blink blink of the eye in some respects it's. It's really just incredible and Info for those people who are. Listening who are say parents of kids in difficult circumstances. Maybe, they themselves don't have many resources aside from the I, believe in you and behavior to support that besides the the pledge. which you mentioned earlier about being a positive change agent and positive difference maker. would you have any advice for those for those parents for people who are trying to raise their kids and enable them in the greatest way possible so? They it's it's so difficult to be a talented today. Because at one time I used to think it was just black problem. But today I think it's a societal problem. We live in society of day. Where most? Of the young people. Are raised in a single parent House Fausto. My nine years at USC. I only coach two black players. Who came from a dual parent house saw. So? Diverse issue. Is. The, parent? And when we say is usually going to. The mother, because like judicial system, the court use the. Award child to the mother. And so does with mothers are true so-called American heroes. They were two and three jobs. Most parents will do things for their children. They would never do for themselves, and so it's essentially enormous challenge now. Can raise the child. And they that you just have to try as hard as you can should provide. the best for your children, and and teach them a sustainable value system of right and wrong. perseverance. I don't know I mean I. Don't know if I'm equipped to say because I trying to raise myself. What are your your hopes? For what could come of this turbulent time? These turbulent times I should say certainly that are really. Sort of exhibiting and showing US ruptures that have existed for a long time. What what are some of your hopes for what can come out of this? And what are some of your fears of what might come out of this if you have any? My Hope. Is that. We will be who we say we are. All of us that. We are the United States of America, then we. Can Start? To limit. And and not continue to live alive. That is my hope. as we, we proceed that. As I said earlier in the conversation. We're the problem and where to she and. We are the problem and we are the solution. WE'LL! George I wanna be respectful of your time. We've covered a lot I'm not in any rush. I can continue to go as long as you would like to go, but is. Is there anything else you would like to to say or Share at this point we. Touched a lot of the sensitive nerves and that when we conclude I would just like to include the the same way we started, but it maybe you. There's some things that that you. marriage some discussion. I'm open to it. I think we've covered a lot of ground I. Think we've both and by we I. Mean You you have offered. Some some direction, a lot of recommendation. You've offered resources like. Tell me who you are of. Course will link to all of these things. You mentioned Robert Greenleaf and leadership. As far as resources go many different. Takeaways that people can I think apply or at the very least think about? But as you mentioned if we put words into our heads or out into the world, what matters is the behavior that follows those and the practice like you have on your. On your. Bathroom Mirror of self, leadership and self discipline since you need to lead yourself. Before you can hope to lead. Any type of group and I I. Think we're at a good place where we could, we could end the way we started for now. Show. I would just like to the. Should conclude with. The way I started with the per and my prayer is their God. Please, help us united as a nation. Please I'll. BE Who We say we are. A United States of America Amen. Thank you so much for taking the time to to share your the breadth and richness of your life experience, also the insights that you've come to after eighty two years on this planet I really appreciate you taking the time George. I appreciate. The opportunity and more importantly I. I appreciate this Lynch. Thank you so much and you are such a positive. Change Agent and I think as as you said if you save one life that has ripple effects. I. Think your positive impact. On so many people. Has a a real. Incredible ripple effect so I would just say. Please keep doing what you're doing I I really appreciate you. Thank you and to everybody listening? We will have links to everything that we discussed in the show notes, and you can find that as always. Tim Log, Ford Slash podcast and simply search for Georgia's name, and in fact, what we'll do is create a short link, which will just be Tim d- Log forward slash George in that will take us all to the resources specifically for this episode and until next time. Thank you for tuning in behind. Be Safe and always strive to be the person you say you are. Thank you. This is tim again. Just a few more things before you take off number one this fiber at Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me? Every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the and five hundred Friday's very short email share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that have discovered. It could include Gizmos and gadgets, and all sorts of weird. Shit that I've somehow dug up. In the world of the Esoteric as I do, it could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends for instance, and it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. If you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to four hour workweek dot com. That's four hour workweek dot, com all spelled out and just drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. If you sign up, I hope you enjoy.

Tim America US George Georgia TA basketball Luther King George Raveling Washington Michael Jordan Robert Greenleaf Nike George Floyd Tim Ferriss USC Florida Dr Martin Luther Raveling
Roll On: America's Overdue (R)Evolution

The Rich Roll Podcast

1:32:02 hr | 1 year ago

Roll On: America's Overdue (R)Evolution

"The. Rich role podcast. Hey everybody, it's rich ear. Ritual your host. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How you guys doing? So. I think it's time to talk about what's going on. Don't you think it's time to talk about? SYSTEMIC RACISM? Police brutality civil rights. It's time to talk about. Black lives matter national upheaval call for change and also. This unprecedented opportunity that is unique moment. Percents right now for us to evolve to grow. And he'll as individuals and as a society so to do just that I've enlisted my friend Adam Skolnick to host or co host. What I anticipate will be an ongoing series of ask me. Anything themed conversations. Which is this new experiment in format change that I will be? To some extent, trading duties reversing roles from time to time swapping seats in order to share a little bit more of my own personal perspective on matters, audience interest. As for my friend, Adam longtime listeners will recall two thousand sixteen appearance on the PODCAST I was episode two eighteen and that conversation we talked about his life. We talked about his book. One breath which is. This really beautiful magnificent biography of America's greatest. Free Diver Nicholas Foley. But for those of you, who are unfamiliar Adam is an activist. He's a veteran journalist. Perhaps best known as the CO author of David Gones. Not Memoir can't hurt me. Guys read that book. Right Adam is written for the New York Times playboy outside ESPN BBC men's health and many other prominent publications, and you might have caught his series of really outstanding pieces on Colin o'brady and Collins Historic Solo Solo traverse of Antarctica in two thousand and eighteen that atom road up for the New York Times in any of that. Adam is a great conversationalist. Really perfect fit for this new series this experiment and you going GonNa soon. Find out but I must take care of some business. We are brought to you today. By Harry's and I got a public service announcement for you guys, you know those. Blue and orange razors mocked up like Formula One race cars on lockdown like there's some kind of rare diamonds behind bulletproof lucite. Cases at your local pharmacy. What a ludicrous ridiculous setup and a huge hassle, plus let's not forget. How insanely overpriced these razors are so cut it out. People stop it already Harry's ear to help. Harry's business model is simple. high-quality razors with an economic design sold directly to consumers at an honest price may with integrity, no gimmicks, no unnecessary markups, they offer premium blade refills as low as two dollars each delivered straight to your doorstep. Now I hear you. You might be thinking. thinking rich. What are you talking about right now? You've got this crazy beard happening at the moment, you're not shaving true and false. 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I think of Nevada's basically my one stop shop for super healthy snacks, things like go. Gee, berries or cow hemp owens, which are really awesome. All the great stuff I'd like to put in my daily smoothies to make them crazy, healthy and delicious stuff like Chia seeds hempseed ground. flaxseed Asai Camus Camus all kinds of super-duper superfoods. Anything you'RE LOOKING FOR EVITA HAS IT beyond their amazing product line also has this really beautiful laudable planetary mission in all facets of their business model, they are committed to regenerative farming. The only work was smallholder farmers who use sustainable organic farming methods to grow their goods, and they guarantee them fare wages, providing healthy working conditions and incredible example of how to use business. Business as a force for positive change supporting Evita's is kind of like this cool conscious consumerist way to help address the climate crisis promote social justice and agriculture and support person on human health along the way and right now you guys. My listeners can get thirty percent off an entire order of organic superfoods. All you gotTa do is visit Nevada's organic dot com slash. For thirty percent off with the Promo code ritual. That's Nevada's organic DOT COM AV it. A S organic dot com slash ritual. Okay, so before we launch in, just want to say up front that. This podcast. Is Not and has never been a news program or A political talk show. I don't go to my way to court controversy and I always endeavoured to unite people rather than divide, but this show also about what's important, and it's about fundamentally having conversations that matter and right now no conversation matters more than black lives matter. Of held off on hosting in episode like this, not just because of. The historically evergreen nature of the show and the kind of protracted production cycle. We've historically operated under, but also because. I didn't want to just. Simply react in the moment I really wanted to. Take a minute to listen before speaking to kind of process. What's going on to also participate in the protests with my family, and of course read? Because I think it's important to. Address, what's happening from informed and reflective point of view, rather than a reactive or kind of impulsive reflexive perspective so? That's what we're doing here today. Ready to talk about it, and this is the first of many conversations I'm going to be sharing over the coming weeks about race in America this particular conversation about privilege. And it's about our collective responsibility to act to speak up for what's right. To finally dismantle the systemic ills that have contributed to. Really unspeakable harm that that I think can no longer go on checked, and it's also about again this unprecedented opportunity in this brilliant unique moment, and what it presents to evolve into. He'll as individuals as a nation. And as global community. Finally it's also a discussion about the history and the mission of this podcast, how on actively seeking to better myself and to broaden the inclusivity of the program and my advocacy in general? Final note in the show notes you'll find many resources, readings, essays, books, other podcasts, documentaries, and links to black lives matter centered nonprofits, so encourage all of you guys to. Explore that list, check it out. Donate to the nonprofits there. If you can or find a way to support in other ways, I appreciate all you guys I. Don't take. The responsibility of this platform or the authority that have over this sphere lightly. It is a privilege and it's one that I intend to use to better myself and humanity as a whole, so without being said, let's do it. This is me. And Adam Skolnick. Welcome to the podcast today. We're going to do something a little bit difference. We're going to do a version of ask me anything. We're experimenting with the format a little bit here to try to be. Current, not only with audience interest, but also with the new cycle to some extent This is something that came up in my recent podcast with James Alter, who was encouraging me to share more of my voice, and my perspective and opinions on things that the audience is interested in and expressed to him in that conversation, my comfort with just speaking into a microphone alone so I then reached out to my friend Adam Skolnick to join me, so it could be more of a conversation and less of a monologue. You guys longtime listeners will remember at He was on the podcast. I can't remember what episode number it was, but it was quite a while ago. Is the author of a book called one breath about Nick Navoli the free diver. He's also a journalist and a writer frequent contributor to the new. York Times outside magazine anything else. All kinds of different outlets yeah. And you write about environmentalism right about sports and a number of other human rights whatever you know, stories under reported stories kind of right that terrain. Friends Adam has recently dipped his toe into the world of Swim, run out of the guy who wrote the article for the New York. Times about when I did the Otila World Championships, and then you participated in the the one the swim running Catalina. That's right. That's right I did the experience yeah, and and I haven't stopped running since. Right And you're looking superfit. Hey, thanks and I always enjoy my conversations with you and I just thought that you would be a great person to volley back and forth with this format, so we're giving it a go. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man I'm excited to be here, so I had to talk to you today, yeah. I think a good place to kind of kick. This off is to directly. Address this very unique and historic moment that were in right now. Black lives matter I've been. Not Struggling. That's the wrong word, but trying to figure out the best way to communicate around what is occurring in the moments. historically. This podcast has been. Constructed in a way. That! has prevented it from being nimble, enough and responsive enough to be of the moment like the conversations are typically. Evergreen right and I will record lots of conversations. And then we have a production cycle, and those conversations will be released some weeks later, sometimes four six eight weeks later, right in normal times. That's fine right now. That seems to be dysfunctional because everything is changing so quickly and I felt this urgent need to be. Communicating about what is happening more concurrently with this rapidly escalating and changing landscape that we find ourselves in so this is an effort to do just that and I. Think you know one thing I want to speak to directly upfront is. Is You know some criticism that's been hurled in my direction. My most recent podcast that went up this past weekend was with my friend Doug Evans, he wrote this book called the Sprout Book. We talked about sprouting. We did touch on food injustice, but predominantly we spoke about his book and nutritious power sprouting, and there were some people who were ruffled by that because it's so a synchronous with what is happening right now and. My immediate reaction is to be defensive, but in truth there's that's correct. Right like it. It does feel wrong to talk about anything. But what's occurring in the new cycle right now and I understand that and this is. What we're doing right now is is one way of rectifying that and I do want to say up front that I have. Scheduled numerous people of color to be coming on the podcast yesterday. I did in amazing episode with my friend. Byron Davis Former USA nationals from team member and his friend Phil Ellen Junior Pastor and poet and filmmaker. We had an incredible conversation. That's going to be going up late Sunday night. I've got knocked Robinson coming back on the show. I've got John Lewis the bad ass. Vegan I've reached out to a whole number of other people including showcasing Gore Reverend Michael Beckwith some women, of course, so that's all going to be coming, but this takes time. Production Cycle here so encouraged people to be a little bit patient, and also I just want to let people know that I hear you and I under I. Understand and I think that. As. I grapple with how to communicate about this I went through a period in which. I didn't WANNA be. Reactive in the moment like I wanted to. Say My piece which I did in an instagram post for the moment, but then I also expressed that I wanted to take the time to also learn and listen and I've done that. Our family went out and protested and I've just been paying attention to what's going on, so that I can when when the moment does arise to speak to this a little bit more. Informed and can respond intelligently as opposed to reacting impulsively, yeah. Makes Sense you know I was going through some of the listener questions and you're talking about the future guests Was it something that you ever tracked before? In terms of having a diversity of guests, or or is that something that you're just kind of your? You're noticing now and wanting to pivot to, or is that something that you've been as been on your mind for a while and and Yeah, it's been on my mind. I mean it's there has been criticism in the past. The podcast is not diverse enough. And that's come up again more recently. Like why is your podcast so white in S- in so male centric and again that's another instance in which I get defensive because I look at my list of guests that I've had over the years and I think about malaria and showcasing Gore George Raveling in David Carter and Bryant Terry. Knox Robinson and David Coggins, Dominic Thompson and Light Watkins and Shawn Stevenson Dr Robin Shut can and Silas Rayo and you know I can think of lots I can rattle off like a lot of African American guests that I've had yeah, but when you look at the Canon of work, five, hundred twenty plus episodes. It doesn't hold up and that's something that I have to own like. I think that the podcast. Has A lot of growth potential in terms of the diversity of voices that can bring to it and I will be the first to admit right now that I haven't done the best job with that, and that's part of my learning curve in this moment is being more sensitive to that truth in that reality, rather than just doubling down and saying look at all the people that. That I've had yeah, you know. Why are you saying that it's to actually reflect inward, and honestly and objectively and try to understand where that perspective is coming from, and when I do, look at it objectively. I see that point I think that there is improvement there that I need to commit to and I am committing to that right now. I've already taken action to. Rectify that to some regard and I think that it's important right now to. Open this up to a diversity of voices. You know this is not. A news podcast and I resist. Trying to be you know I've resisted politics in general and I don't court controversy, but without a doubt, this is an unprecedented historic moment and I. Think it's super important to be. Engaged in what's happening right now I very much want to be on the right side of history and I want to get this right, and despite the fact that this isn't a news podcast at the same time, it is a podcast about conversations that matter and right now nothing matters more than black lives, matter, and what we're seeing unfolding, not just nationally, but globally worldwide. Totally agree I, think and by the way that question came in from Stacey Alice Johnston. said on want to make sure that we acknowledge that but. You know when when you're. You're talking about that. A couple of things come to mind one is This is a moment where we all have to do an by we. All I mean white people have to do the inner work, and and examine our relationship to race. In this country I think that It's kind of this is the reconciliation moment you know? And I I started. To think about? Kind of the greater issues here and why it's taken so long and what this moment means you know in in after World War. Two I. Know This because as a Jew. I know I mean I'm like well steeped in Holocaust Info and after World War Two. There was a reconstruction Germany and around nineteen sixty. There was this resurgence of German nationalism, and around that same time Israel found out that Adolf Eichmann, who is the managing director of all things? Holocaust, he's got. He managed the trains. Trains and the schedules he was found in in Argentina, and they got him, and they put him on trial all over the world that could tune in and see him on trial, and in Israel, and after that moment Germany totally changed their education system towards reconciliation and to to educate so every year for years in school Germans have to devote a substantial amount of time to examine what happened how they slipped into nationalism, and and what happened in the Holocaust all the horst in great detail. And we don't do that We've never really done that. You know you gloss over Slavery Glossy Gloss over Jim. Crow stuff segregation. It's not taught every year. It's not taught in great detail, and it's taught through the lens of the victors. Something that came up in the podcast yesterday like the way that we were educated around. These issues is from a perspective that is rather myopic. That's the those are. The covers that are getting pulled right now, yeah! Exactly and so you can't. If you don't examine it, and it's all the th the thing. It's all about hard true. I mean what what your your your podcast is in the news podcast, but is A. How to live better podcast. It's not just a podcast of ideas. It's podcast of ideas that you can relate to and improve your own life if you if you take the information as as it is brain food, and decide to dedicate yourself to it, and these are hard truths that we have not dealt with in this country and and and so now people are you know it's very exciting to see like the top of the bestseller lists are these how to be anti-racists and white Gylfi. Some some books that are very recent. That did well enough, but now a really selling, and that's I think that's a great thing because people are now doing their own education but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be doing more systemically. Yeah, systemically is the key word, and it's this interesting juxtaposition on the one hand you have these massive protests that are very diverse in their socioeconomic and. Make Up. You know it's so interesting to take to the streets and see you know so many white people and Brown people people of color people of all shapes and forms uniting around these ideas and I found myself much more emotional than I expected, and which is so hopeful heartening. At the same time you go online and the vitriol and the. Resistance to these ideas is of equal force in measure at times. I think that that is going to you know. Lose out in the long run. But there is certain swath of the population. That's very. Threatened by this and I'm interested in why that's the case and my sense is that on some level there's a perception that it's a zero sum gain like if we're talking about black lives, matter that that somehow dismisses the value and importance of other lives, and right now you know on top of this uprising in awareness were also seeing the greater disenfranchisement of a lot of people do to unemployment, and you know the the served domino effect of Corona. Virus pandemic, and that's making people more afraid and more calcified around their identities, and their sense of you know protecting. What's there's yeah, and so there's an interesting turf war. That's going on right now, and I think so much of that. You know resistance to change or resistance to Embracing this idea that we need. Significant reformation is coming from that place of fear and disenfranchisement. Yeah. No, I think you're right, but if you and if you go back to the whole idea. Of, race. I mean it's obviously an allusion, right? It's an illusion created by white people and it was created by white people for two basic reasons, one is to give ourselves and ourselves meaning Europeans at the time license to travel abroad other other lands other cultures. Take the land. Take the stuff. Do whatever they want within subjugate the people, so why because we were superior in the eyes of God that was the idea of of race right and they? It was created by white people. Nobody knows nobody else created race. So that's one and the other reason was used to. Divide people. To divide people up. Mainly, poor white people for years have been fed this idea of race, saying no, you're you know you're better off than look at these black people over here in this country and look at these people over here you're better off your superior to them. And that's what a lot of people latched onto, and that is allowed the powers that be whether it be wealthy people whether it be Kings, Lords, which just wealthy Americans or the power structure to exploit them, and exploit all of us, and so it's basically a divide and conquer trick that was created, and that's all races, racism illusion, and to divide and conquer trick, and now it matters because it's been baked into the American way of life. It's like this weird neurosis that is that has been baked into all of us and we all have it. That's why we're doing this kind of inner inner work now because we grew up and live in a place where it has been baked into the sauce. Yeah, and it's a matter of of debugging. Yeah, ourselves like rebooting are operating system. System with you know some kind of antivirus software to cleanse us of that, and I think that process of looking inward and evaluating the extent to which race plays a factor in the conscious awareness of the average person is challenging, because most people would consider themselves not to be racist I. Don't think that I'm a racist person I don't you know combing or surround myself with racist people? But when the racism is systemic, there are institutions in place that function in a way irrespective of our own personal relationship with race that tipped the scales in the wrong direction and perpetrate these sorts of harms, an even deeper beneath that. Is that embedded system that operating system that on a very unconscious level there is that awareness of you know stratification around race is? And that's very uncomfortable like. What what what part of my own psyche is functioning? On that operating system, and how can I deconstruct ad, or how can I get honest with myself about that so that I can transcend that and I think a lot of people. To that because they think they're not racist and there is no work to be done, but I would challenge everybody to. That's what I'm trying to do right now I'm trying to be honest about that and a perfect example is like well. Just look at all the guests that I've had on the PODCAST. Mostly white people I mean so what's going on with me? I'm not a racist person, but but here's the manifestation of my life's work, and that tells a story right so What is that story? That's being told and what aspect of that has to do with race, and that's like that's the hill that I need to climb right now. Yeah, I mean you know we're. We're all grappling with our implicit bias. Biopsies in that happens like because we do have this weird overt. Awareness of race that that isn't serving any anybody, especially black people, and like Toni Morrison. I thought Tony Morrison Clip from the old Charlie rose show and. She was like you know, but you know she. She flipped it and she was like. No. What's that doing to you? White people 'cause I'm fine. Right we'll. Charlie asked her something like. Is Race still a thing for you? Because you're this Pulitzer Prize winning heralded poet laureate like you've transcended race. Yeah, and she said that's the wrong question. Yeah, the wrong. That's the wrong question. What's what what? How do you white people have to deal with race, and and it's almost like if you can only be taller than me, because I'm on my knees. What's that say about you? and your significance, and and so that NBA but if you if you look at the story of. Of America? That's really the story I was watching this Ken Burns documentary about Jack Johnson the boxer last night and to see. How the LA Times New, York Times were writing about him. The greatest athlete because of the heavyweight boxing was the pinnacle of. the greatest athlete in Sports you'd be surprised. How vitriolic it was how racist it was and these are you know I'm writing the New York Times, but you don't even know that, right. We don't know that as modern Americans. That's that's how overt it was right. There was straight up racist stuff in news. Stories you know we talk about fake news now because trump's always talking about fake news, and he's delivering reading fake news and we have actual fake news affect our election two thousand sixteen. Black Americans have been dealing with fake news for hundreds of years. Right stuff that they know it happened to them. Reported as false in the mainstream media for years and years You know this is nothing new, so you know where got on that tangent, but. They you know it goes back to. History is told by the victors. There was an interesting threat on twitter and I'm forgetting. WHO POSTED IT But it was a very long thread about Martin, Luther, King and The extent to which White America embraces him and pivots around his message of nonviolence, but this sort of broke down a different reality about what his message was about. Yes, nonviolence was part of it, but but what gets missed in that is that it was all about civil disobedience and with that we're talking you know you civil. Yes, but disobedient. Many people uncomfortable was a big part of it, not protesting where they tell you you can protest, but protesting where they tell you you can't right, and that gets lost in the conversation around mlk. I mean that's just one example, and I think another flare up that we're seeing. Right now is the conversation around defunding the police. Yeah, there's a lot of people are upset about that like Oh. You want to get rid of the police assault with defunding means defining could mean a lot of things but I think what it really is getting out. Is the CORDIS function in the systemic institution of policing to begin with which, in which is very much a community based thing about it goes back to what you were saying earlier about. Erecting mechanisms of control to solidify power structures yeah. I mean you see protect and serve, but really fundamentally. That's what it's about, and it's become. A highly dysfunctional in our current era, and defunding is a call to have a conversation about the fundamental purpose of policing and the allocation of resources to drive towards a more productive goal for everybody. Yeah, you know I was I was I. wrote something down here so I'm just kind of like. Sifting through, but like these big ideas are very exciting. They scare people I mean the the defunding police talked scare. Some people, especially more conservative people but these these. These. Big ideas are inspiring. We should stay open to them because I think what what defending the police, and really, we're just talking about cutting budgets you in very few cases is talking about abolishing a police. Nobody nobody's talking. It's talking about cutting budgets right and I think personally I mean. This is just my personal opinion that we've for a long time have had a a skewed budget towards militarization and the national level of always thought got. Why don't we take some of that military budget and put it into our under underfunded schools and pay teachers more yes Donald Services. Grams, and until and and the funny thing is I always thought about it as a national thing, but it's going to start now with at least because of the activists in the streets, because of black lives matter this is where it starts and I think we're gonNA. See if we can push this and continue, continue the protests and continue the lobbying efforts in having lawmakers. Get on board if we can see it at the at the local level. Moving some money from militarization and enforcement, and and basically let's call it what it is weapons and death. Yeah, and move it towards nurturing and and nurturing life, and giving people a better chance at a great life through education, and and through their I think we're GONNA. See a better country. Come out of it so I. It's funny. The thread of defending the police could be the trick. Th. That's what it is if you can. If the threat is white supremacy, and you can start pulling it. It through the defunding of police. What else what can happen to this country in a positive way and I? Think that's that's the big idea to think about. We're already seeing it. Minneapolis has already done that got basically said we're stripping this thing down to its to its you know to. It's studs, and we're going to rebuild this from the ground up and I believe Camden new. Jersey is a kind of a pilot program example that they've done something similar in that regard, and I guess that's. Something where you can call nine one one. You'd choose police or mental health responders, first responders yet super inspiring. Yeah, at the same time we're seeing this malignant narcissist in the White House is constructed a wall around his domicile. It's. Yeah, right? It's the people's Domicile Yeah Johnston. This building while he's you know basically pulled out every trick from the the you know, despots handbook. To activate his base and my sense is that it's backfiring right now. They're all there will always be. You know his people who are going to support what he's doing. But there are significant cracks in that firmament at the moment you know I don't think that the average person takes kindly to seeing the extent of. Militarization in the streets to police, it's own people and armies, battalions of of essentially soldiers. Who Won't tell you who they work for who they report to or Bob Barr out there pretending like he's patent or something, you know I. It's it's disturbing and I think most rational people are struggling with what that means, and what that says about America. I think so I mean. I think you were talking about The hardcore people that are resistant Look at Buffalo Police Department and how how I think they demonstrate this mass resignation from the riot squad, because two people pushed over seventy five year old man, instead of just dealing with them in a more peaceably way, it was like fifty seven of them. Yeah, they didn't. They didn't resign. They got reassigned. They'd quit variety or whatever, and then hundred people showed up for the arraignment of those two officers, and they cheered them, and it just shows you. There's a there's a sensitivity. Especially among cops. And police around the country, but this hardcore group. They're very sensitive. They don't want to talk about these things. They're resistant and I think even you know a lot of us. Don't want to be piled with a bunch of guilt. You know, and and it does feel. No one's talking about this to make anyone feel guilty About making us feel responsible. Guilt is a worthless emotion. Responsibility is where you WanNa, go and like. What can we do to make it better, and and you know channeling it into efforts like banning choke holds Def-. Cutting the police budget so that it can go to I think we should talk about not just defending police, but what are we funding with it right, and and and I think that's part of the equation. funding schools a more profound way. making sure people have enough to eat. Just making sure we have a a safer. Place for everybody to live. Yeah, we get to have that conversation. You know what I mean. we were talking yesterday about The work that Deray mckesson is doing with eight can't wait and campaign zero, and he's very much about data driven solutions to the police force, and and you know what's required to in a very tactical way to deconstruct some of these practices that are leading to the harms and the results that we're seeing right now and I think a broader conversation about. Where this money is going so that we can redress homelessness, and we can redress you know everything from college debt to mental health yeah. I mean if if if there was a social worker in that police car in Minneapolis. Also. To deal with the first car, the first car that showed up to deal with someone who is who was struggling and didn't want to get into that car because he was claustrophobic if there was someone in the same, is true all the way down the line if there's if there is a mental health first responder in a car with a policeman, what does that do who does that benefit? It's not gonna just benefit the these. These victims would be victims of of police violence. It's going to benefit the COP is well. It benefits everybody because now. You don't have that on your conscious on your sole so. These ideas of if incorporating mental health into policing or into the way we protect one another, because it's not just protecting, the neighborhood is protecting one another right, yeah, and just to be clear I'm not anti police now. There are plenty of amazing police officers and first responders in in all the all the kind of people that we need to. Keep Society on the right track. But I do resist the bad apple narrative like there's a lot of talk about bad apples, and certainly there are bad apples, but what we saw with with George Floyd was was, and I said this yesterday like it was so brazen right and the casualness with which that harm perpetrated that murder and you know the fact that there were the officers who were who were just standing by and doing nothing speaks to a greater systemic issue that needs to get redressed and I think that you know. I'm sure it's you know community based, but the bar to becoming a police officer I feel like needs to be raised like you don't become a navy seal until you go through buds right? You go through rigorous training to become somebody who's capable. Of handling high stress, situations that could potentially escalate and be violent. Yup, and I would like to see more rigorous standards around who who gets to become a police officer. These are people who are putting themselves in harm's way on the daily. Yeah, and with that comes anxiety and stress and post traumatic stress, and all these you know mental issues and we want those people to be. Mentally emotionally and spiritually fit to handle those situations to understand what's required to avoid excessive force or lethal force when at all possible and that you know it it. It's common sense that requires better training when we're seeing what's happening right now. It speaks to a lack of understanding and training around these skill sets. That are crucial. Yeah, I mean this the the idea of when crisis hits as your pulse rate, go up or does go down. You know we want people who pulse rates. Go down. Who can who can? Can stay on task in the midst of of of trying circumstances and aren't afraid of them and and if they are afraid, don't act. It's okay not to act sometimes. It's okay to pull back. you know the fact that we have lost someone because he spent a counterfeit. Twenty dollar bill is is repulsive. You know the fact that like that. He was even dealt with any physical way When you just write a ticket for something like that is ridiculous. Yeah, so it's like it's it's That that goes into the training of of exerting a physical will on another human being there should be limits on when we do that. That should be a last resort, not a first resort in my opinion, but you know I think that. If. We think about George Floyd and going back in the you're talking about the new cycle earlier I. Don't want to ask you a question about this. I, we have this long, really boring pre apocalypse moment with with everyone staying at home, right with the pandemic right and everyone's kind of at home, and it seems like wow, you know. We're looking at videos of dolphins coming in soured oprah making sour dough bread. It's like it's as long kind of kind of low key type, thing and then overnight. The. flips, but it started not with George, but it started with Ahmad Arboretum and and We want for me. You know I'm a runner like you not like you I'm not a runner like you. I'm a runner got a back injury. I'm sidelined from running. You're actually running more than I am, but but am I mean. Very personal like during during where I live in Santa, Monica the Beach Path was closed, so I start running into these neighborhoods and I'm running into. Tax. Brackets that I don't belong in and I never once felt unsafe doing it and or like that it wasn't that it wasn't okay. and we had on our brand. What what is I know you posted that great video on your Instagram, but I just wondered what you think of now because who would have thought then, and that leads to this, but it is part of the part of what's happened. I mean that was the first. Yeah things. Yeah, there. There is a domino effect. Erin it and and and this episode that we're seeing began with a maude and It's horrific in every regard and I think you know to the point of looking at my own around this. I feel like I didn't speak up around that. At that time. You know what I was late to the party on that in terms of. putting words together in the public conversation around it. And I should have done that. You know as a runner as somebody who could identify. With that aspect of WHO that human being was, it's unbelievably tragic. And in reflecting upon that. you know it's very clear. My privilege becomes very clear because I've run all over the world I've run. You know not just the trails around my house, but I've had the privilege of traveling to lots of different places and whatever hotel I'm staying in my favorite thing when I go to a new city is to put on my running shoes and run around it and never once did I ever think I'm putting myself in harm's way. No matter where I am you know. And when I posted that the other day, there were some snarky. Comments like well. That's be you know you're not running through Watson. You're not running through content. We have an apartment downtown because my daughter goes to a high school. right next to downtown, and that apartment is around the corner from skid row and I make a point. Of running through skid row on purpose because I wanna see what's going on there. And I've never felt threat in fact. People when I run through skid row for the most part, and I've said this before. The people are nicer to me than they are out on the trail like when I'm out on the trail and I waved to somebody, and they don't wave back, I'm like what the fuck. I run through skid row and I'm giving high fives to these people who live in tents. And you know that's. You know potentially dangerous neighborhood now. You know yeah, no, I'm not running through Compton every day or anything like that like I understand. That's a different thing, but the the point is that. I don't have to think about that or worry about that and I've been pulled over by the cops so many times in my lifetime when I was. You know a out of control. Alcoholic got pulled over for Dui. Nuns of times never once Not only was I not afraid of anything happening to me. By the COP. I got let off like tons of times when I should have gone to jail, then arrested. So many times. And I'VE RUN IN THE MIDDLE EAST I've run like I've I've run all over the place I've run through. I've run through Beirut Lebanon in Weird neighborhoods, and you know places where you know. I am the minority and never thought once about like my own personal safety. Because it's not the law enforcement officers in geared towards you that what aboutism is is kind of people again. Want to listen because it's hard to hear you know. I think you. You talked about David Gugans You know obviously I have I right? When we were giving your CV at the beginning I left out like the. Your. That, you, you are in cooperation. Partnership with David wrote his book can't hurt me, which is still like the number one book in the world? And you did the audio book. Narrated audiobook and I mean he's. He's such a masterful storyteller way. He tells his story, but one thing he is not afraid to do is look at himself with a micro with a microscope and. And Talk to himself in a way. That's real and you know the the the approach that you WanNa. Take when when people are telling you. Something isn't well. What about this? What about that is to listen and to look into yourself before you say what about what about like a great example of of systemic racism in this country is You know we remember when the gunman came around the Michigan State, House so the guys with the air. An people were talking about. You know if that was people of color if those were black men. It would have been national guard they would run arrested. It got me think of California gun laws because California is one of the best gun control measures in the United States and do you know who pass those gun laws? Who Reagan. In the nineteen sixties Reagan was governor and pass those gun laws with the full cooperation and support of the NRA because Black Panthers did try to come to the state capital with guns to do a demonstration. The guns were removed, and they still came, and they stormed the capital, and they were able to break into the actual floor of of the state. House while legislation was going on legislative session was going on, and then those people were arrested and then soon after that they actually. Passed gun control measures in in California wasn't Democrats pass those measures. It was Reagan. with the full cooperation of NRA. There's no real better episode from history to show you that we couldn't even pass gun control measures in this country after Sandy Hook so that just shows you kind of like how the system is played out and lean. As much as anything in my opinion, yeah, it shows you how it's up. How how it tilts another interesting wrinkle to the issue of guns. When you look at the Second Amendment and the intention behind that which was to empower the people. To Rise up against a corrupt government. Now. We're seeing the deployment by the government of. Basically, a private militarized police force, which is the very thing that the founding fathers had in mind in terms of ensuring that the people would be able to resist just such thing, but the people who are the most supportive and vocal about. Gun Rights and the NRA are the ones who are the most supportive of the despotic move by the government right now, and there's an inherent irony in that which is kind of amazing. It's so weird you know I was watching My wife is six months pregnant, so I've been very careful during quarantine, and not have not attended the the demonstrations not out of a lack of wanting to be there, but just out of being souvenir full And it's really exciting to see how many everyone is an activist. Now I've been in and around activism mostly in the environmental side for you know my most of my life and to see everyone become. An activist is very exciting to want to be there, but now I. I was watching it very intently as it started unfolding in Los Angeles, that first Saturday around Fairfax. And there was no looting in Los Angeles especially around Fairfax, and Melrose until the cops oriented all their attention around the peaceful protesters started hitting them with batons That's when the first glass started to break I mean. That's just the facts. And in Santa Monica, it was a very similar story. Right how it played out And when I was watching the looting. At first, it was hard to watch. You don't WanNa Watch that you know you feel really badly for business owners because of what they've had to endure with Gordon. And, so you feel terrible about that. Nobody wants to see that, but at the same time like twenty four hours later I, I started having a totally different view on the looting, and and that view is. That's what no justice. No peace means. It doesn't just mean one hundred thousand people marching down Hollywood boulevard piece peacefully doesn't mean just sitting in front of the mayor's House that's part of it, but it also means like if you if we can't create a more just society where everyone has a fair shot. Everyone has a fair shake then. We are going. That's what no justice. No peace means and it means that there is going to be times where it's going to blow up the frustrations going to boil over and allow other people, opportunists or not. To get involved in and loot, and so I think if we look at it again, the hard truths that is a hard truth we, we created that moment by allowing this frustration to build and build and build. That's not something that happened because of them. It's not a them them like. You have to back it up and look at the seed. Yeah, you know what this germinated out of these other events like you have to look at it from a global perspective and you know listen. There look that's certainly true. At the same time there are other people who are just opportunistically out there who don't give a shit about no justice, no peace there. Dislike of the cops are distracted I can go break in Nordstrom right now and totally so then why? Why or at least so focused on protesters? Let March and we're that whole situation was created because of the events that unfolded and strategy of orienting your peacekeeping around. The peaceful protesters around. Okay, let's just let them March, and just protect the buildings, and then nobody gets hurt and there's no nobody throwing bottles at anybody right? You know it's it's. It's choices that are made over and over again. If you go back to the Michael Brown incident in Ferguson when people were were really pissed off in the streets, and and even in Minneapolis, people were pissed off in the streets I thought. Let people be pissed off in the streets especially now during quarantine. No one's trying to get anywhere so like let people be pissed off in the streets. Start to try to control that it's going to blow up. doesn't take brain surgery. For some reason it's built in. People on the streets are a problem. We have to try to control problems as opposed to just let it run its course right, yeah! There was a sense when Ferguson happened that that was going to be a tipping moments. That was two thousand fourteen and it wasn't right and and. I will admit that when the protest began in Minneapolis that I couldn't have predicted that it would catch fire and sweep the nation in the way that it that it did no me. Neither I called my friend broken. Grandma, who lives in Minneapolis? after the first night of protests, check in with them. He lives right in the middle of all. That was going on and during that conversation we were just talking and he was telling me the experience of being essentially at Ground Zero for that. But never once during that conversation. Did I think that this was going that? These protests are going to start happening in essentially every city and community across America and now oversees. It's crazy. It's a it's. It's very. That's what's exciting about it, right? That's the excitement that everyone now is is keyed into this This real this this other virus that is white supremacy, and wanting to tackle it but at the same time look at Arab spring. Not to be a not to be down on this, but I can see anything happening from here on out. I could see trump losing fifty fifty states. There's nothing off the table. Table. You can go from trump losing fifty fifty to him to winning a landslide. Yeah I mean. Who knows I doubt a landslide, but he certainly squeak out a victory. Yeah, but but Arab spring like. Is, perfect Cautionary Tale Maybe there's maybe Tunisia came out of Arab, Spring Okay and did better but but of all of the countries I think every every single one regressed and look at Syria, so it's We have to continue. You know you're talking about eight can't wait you know. What would you suggest your listeners do like? What would you have? Advice on what to do, if you if you're not. If in addition to protesting or if you haven't protested things that you can do, did you guys discuss that yesterday? Yeah, a little bit and I've been doing a lot of thinking about this. I mean I think that that I'm sympathetic on some level to the predicament of. The white person. In figuring out. To how to how to put you know whatever they're feeling into. You know a productive channel right now and I think there's a lot of people who are hesitant to say anything because they're not sure what the right thing to say is and like myself. They don't WanNa say the wrong thing, and so there's a paralysis. Where you're like well, you know I don't really. You know this is this is I should take a back seat here and let you know. The black leaders lead the charge here, but you know there's a narrative that this. This problem is like going back to what Tony Morrison said like. This is a white problem, and it's incumbent upon the white people to fix it, and that's going to require all of us to look inward and take stock inventory of her own behavior. Change doesn't happen without Inter. Inter personal change, interpersonal change right? Yeah, so we have to be fearless. Our intercessional Shane Interpersonal Change, which starts with inner person exactly right like you've got, reflect inward, and do an honest and open and objective inventory on your own behavior, and that's what I'm attempting to do right now, and with that comes responsibility with how you interact with other human beings on the one on one, and then on public forums like twitter and facebook and the like And that means. Being open to new ideas being open to challenging your worldview about your own personal relationship with race and you know being. Courageous enough to. read the books like how to how to be an anti-racist or watching the documentaries and you know entertaining perspectives that might be different or uncomfortable for yourself. I think you know there's no other. There's no way around that like it has to begin with ourselves and our relationship to ourselves and our own. Mining our own. Consciousness. To try to peel back the layers on. On you know our interpersonal history with race. How do you do that, have you have you just isn't something that you just do like you? Meditate on it to you journal about it. Have you been just talking to Julie or other friends or how? How is that manifested for you I? Mean it's you know talking to a lot of friends I, I will admit also that you know I I was I was hesitant, and how I communicate publicly about this because I didn't want to get it wrong. And I had a sense of that paralysis and I did want to take a beat to learn and listen. and I think. My sense is that. There's a white fear about how the black community is going to respond to what a white person has to say about this especially in the public eye, the more. AFRICAN AMERICANS THAT I speak to their waiting for those white voices like they're they want. you know the white people to come forward and acknowledge what is happening right now and to And to give voice to their openness for intervening new solutions right now, so I'm trying to have those conversations. I am trying to listen, but I'm also trying to responsibly message around that to encourage everybody to find. Their way of being part of the solution and I think. That's going to depend on your own psychological makeup as well right like not everybody is the person who's going to take to. The streets were assign, but we all have you know people in our lives, and we have choices around how we communicate with them about these issues I think that that's interesting because I love how you said the interpersonal personal is an interpersonal the in this kind of thing. Yes you can journal you can. You can write it all out if that's your thing, but also interpersonal can can open the door to the interpersonal move. You have someone who you trust that you WANNA. Talk about these issues with it can be really valuable to get on the phone with someone and just talk him out and be completely honest. Be completely raw and and be unafraid of what comes from it. because that's how you purchase it. Right I mean yeah, it's interesting. Interesting I. Think it's you know for those that are on social media. It's also about you know seeking out the the people of Color in the the variety of voices that are available to you and making the choice to follow those and to pay attention to what those people are saying like. Break Out of your silo. Yeah, that's comfortable for you and you know, seek out the people that are giving voice to this in a different way, even if that challenges your own personal worldview. Hundred percent I remember A book that was that kind of. Politicized in deep deep way when I was twenty years old was the autobiography of Malcolm X.. which is the original kind of how to be an anti-racist at home, and it's a written by Alex Haley I think the best. Book ever credible. Probably the best memoir in American memoir ever I I think that's a good place to start. You know I haven't actually seen that on some of these reading lists that yeah, it's interesting. I've noticed that as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but to me that like. And at the same time I used to read a lot like when I was twenty twenty, one twenty two. This I was. I read about co Intel pro, which was this and you know CIA FBI local law enforcement apparatus that was set up to crush the civil rights movement specially the Black Power Movement I read all about that. I have not been reading about that. veraciously as I grow grew older I've gotten comfortable on knowing what I knew and. And feeling like I'm a pretty good person and you know, and that was good enough even even with Ferguson happening, even with all these horrible things happening I've not skewed. My life towards getting involved in police, brutality, issues or violence you know I haven't so You know that's that's my personal. Failing to so, and that's from somebody who I care about these issues a lot, you know I've I've been studying these issues for a long time So. We all have a lot of work to do. Because we don't want this to be Arab. Spring two point Oh right, you know we do want to end up with a fifty fifty kind of landslide, victory and most important. We don't want our brothers and sisters getting killed on the streets anymore. Hundred percent hundred percent well. The one thing we can all do is we can vote. And I have concerns about what's going to happen in November right if Pandemic and Corona vire virus you know, continue at their current rate, or we see a second wave like listen you know we were. We were joking about this before the podcast. and this speaks to our own, my own cognitive biases when I saw videos of people partying at Lake of the ozarks. What was that like ten days ago when those videos were going around, I remember feeling outrage. How could people do this? This is so irresponsible. They're just going to contribute to the spread of this virus. Fast forward to two days ago or three days ago or whatever it is, and you see this drone footage above Hollywood, boulevard and it's just you know packed with thousands and thousands of people and my heart was full. And I thought what a beautiful amazing thing and yet! In the context of Corona virus. That's perhaps the worst possible. That anybody can do. You know and it's like. Did we just decide that? The coronavirus isn't a thing anymore? I I think what it is is. There's a hierarchy of concerns in needs right when we're thinking about her own personal welfare. We want to sequester or wearing the masks were doing the social distancing, but when a problem so acute and so demanding of immediate redress invoice we will take to the streets, and there's something that makes that extra inspirational, but also worrisome in terms of the inevitable spike in corona virus cases that we will undoubtedly see unfolding over the next couple of weeks. And what is that? How does that? Bode in terms of what's going to happen. Come November. We have this huge election on the horizon. There's so much unrest right now. There are so many questions. that are being asked about what America means for the people, and in the eyes of the world, and we're going to cast a vote and decide, and if that if we're in a situation in which people can't access the ballot box, or there are certain measures in place that are. That provide a chilling effect on that that's going to lead to greater social unrest, and if whoever wins doesn't win by a significant margin. We're going to see potentially greater unrest around. you know. Campaign malfeasance that could literally lead to the undoing of our country like I. I'm deeply concerned about that on top of that. We have this. Problem of. Of weaponize social media and fake news. I would have hoped that in the wake of what we saw with the two thousand sixteen election that. was have figured out how to get a handle on this, but instead all we've seen is a an explosion mushroom cloud in the impact of. How the media functions on the psyche of the American voter And I- I despair. The more that I think about that because I don't see a solution to this problem I. See it only being fomented at an exponential rate. And I think that that means that it's incumbent upon all of us to Be as active as we possibly can, and to make sure that our voices are being heard and to be you know on that on that Internet that personal inward journey. To challenge the edifice of our own information diets to break out of those silos, and to make sure that we're empowering ourselves with the best most vetted education possible. Yeah I mean I think. Anything can happen just like you said. This is where we're at the crux of either. We're going to go into. is not going to be status quo, no matter what they're going to be perverted version of the last four years with trump even worse, or it's going to be some reimagining of America, which is a beautiful thing, but it might be messy at times, but it. It's very cool. Opportunity like I. Feel like we're at this opportunity we haven't been since. Since Robert F Kennedy Junior was running for president in nineteen, sixty eight and of course Martin Luther. King and he and him were killed very very close together, and everything went kind of the the now dear came in and the advancement that we're all hoping for them. Allow to the I mean we I wasn't alive yet. you know I studied in? America didn't get out of the war. They doubled down We didn't get better. We did slide back. And Now! You have this same moment, but the good thing about it is that people are so politicized that even pandemic. They're marching shoulder to show. That's the uplifting aspect, and so people will turn out. I don't think people are going to be afraid to vote. Because I think we're GONNA remember all those people marching in the streets I don't I. Don't think people will be afraid to vote. Vote I think we will vote. and trump's GONNA lie anyway. I mean no matter how he loses. He's GonNa live on. It whether whether if he loses fifty out of fifty, it's almost worse. Lalai might even be more believable to some people it'd be like. How could I lose? Fifty states rights all these red states. They love me in Texas. That kind of thing So. I think we can't be worried about that. That's just inevitable. That's like the sun coming up in the morning. He's going to lie. But what's interesting is in this reimagining of America that I think because another greed I haven't seen people talk about is the case reparations, which is a tiny pc. Coats essay from the Atlantic the kind of launched him in terms of being a public intellectual and we're seeing the first. We're seeing the first bits of reparations Kentucky. Governor has extended healthcare coverage to all black residents We're starting to see these little bits of what America could be coming out of this and so that's exciting very exciting, but you're right. There's work to do. This is just the beginning of something like you had said to me earlier today. The not the end. It's the just the barely the beginning. Yeah, and I think on top of that. You know the the. There's always this push with every election cycle like we've got to get the young people out to vote like you know it's all about like trying to. Marshall that sector of the population to get them to the ballot box, and they never do right like no matter what it's always. Whether. It's MTV whoever's pushing this like the young people still don't do it, but I feel like. Now they are. I've never seen young people more energized around anything in civic manner like they are right now and I think that that is super encouraging agreed I think that's. To this level of politicization and And knowledge of it and pop video, riot or videos from Whitefish Montana small towns in Mississippi That's why I think. The fifty to fifty thing is in play. Losing fifty is is in play for trump. Because I'm seeing stuff I've never seen before but it's going to take a concerted effort and people are doing you know there's there's all sorts of efforts to to see McConnell get. Kicked on his. Rear end out of town There's lots of stuff that are in play now that we would never would've thought before because of this incredible moment that we're in also interesting. Is The power of the moving image and how that plays into all of this you know the most. impactful filmmaking that's happening right now in the world is happening on the cellphone these moments that are getting captured whether it's. You know what we saw with George Floyd. Or what we saw with the Buffalo, you know police officer that knocked over the elderly man, or even with the White, the white kids that are looting. From or you know? Whatever it is like this is all playing into. How were grappling with how to think about these issues in such a powerful way because they just get shared, the the the the manner of distribution has become so democratized that it doesn't matter that the movie theaters are closed. You know what I mean like. We are being fed. these images. So in such a you know. Like this waterfall information and we're trying to figure out how to process all of this and then determine a path forward for this country at a very. You know interesting time like this is. We are living in a truly historic moment right now. I mean it's partly because the movie theaters are closed. It's because no one's going to work because of I mean I don't think the crowds would be this big. There would be some crowds occupy wall. Street happened when everyone was working, but like it wouldn't be to this level if there wasn't this. Many people available right So it's almost because of it in my opinion, but that's how that's. How history happens right? It's like multiple crazy things all happening in the confluence of one time and place, right. That's how that's. What makes history. Yeah, yeah, and. To think like think back to New Year's Eve. Right and we're all thinking about what's going to happen in two thousand and twenty. Nobody could have ever imagined that we would be in this. Position, it's quite remarkable it is it is i? Mean I'm going to have a? My wife's going to have our first kid in simplicity date of September ten. And You know. We've been having a fine time. We've been staying close to home and it's all good, but and she's handling this like a rockstar. She's not like poor. meeing at all and I'm built. I'm built to find the higher ground. I'm built to keep it simple like it's very easy for me to find the good in in any moment. And what I can do to make my life. Great on a daily basis. I'm just kind of done some work on in that area and I'm I'm built for that? But when this started to blow up with George Floyd at first when we first saw his video. It's very sad. You know you think about. Bringing somebody into the world, into this world the way we have it set up. It was very sad. You know we're both sad about it. and now like a week or two later I'm I'm excited. You know like I'm stoked to bringing another person into this because we could make it better like we can. Become like Scandinavia like an American version of this social democracy we can have like. affordable public school, a great I mean great public schools and affordable daycare and affordable preschools. Maybe even free preschools that set people up. We can democratize nutrition to the point where we have better food for more people. We can do all those things. and. It's so interesting, because even though I studied this before and I've heard it from friends who have been kind of had the have to deal with white pharmacy their whole lives. The key really is now i. mean the the threat is loose. And if we pull that thread. And we ARATU kate that one thread, but just been. Woven into everything Maybe that is the antidote like pulling that thread. Maybe that is what's going to take to become a better version of ourselves and I mean look at the NFL. Look at the Commissioner NFL now, right? A guy who was like anti-castro neck is now publicly saying he's with the players. Personally. You can read that in a number of ways, you can read that as a political move but but you have to. The whole point of activism is to Change People's minds to me. That's a win, and it's a small. It's a small win, but it was definitely a political political, but it but you. You know you do this for a reason, and you don't do it to get people to change their minds, and then shame them. You do change people minds. That's a key thing here like we have to allow. Allow people to grow and change, and we're in this. Cancel culture where we're holding people accountable for things that they said and they did very much. In the past. We have to provide people with a path to redemption, and we have to allow people to. We have to celebrate those wins right when people are able to make those shifts rather than continue to harp on the thing that they did in the past. I think that's a healthy way to to go forward right now. and it's so interesting to think about like. The hullaballoo over capper neck when that was happening in comparison to what we're seeing right now, and how relevant that remains to be the I mean what a here of that guy is crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's unbelievable. And then there was the videos going around which I didn't know like the guy who inspired him to take a knee in the first place. Yes, like a green beret. Beret guy who is like telling his version of that story and how it all came to be because he asked what would be a respectful way of doing it, and the Greenbrier said Neal Right. So he was trying to do it the right way, I know he wasn't even trying to be you. Yes, he was trying to make a point, but he knew I mean he's very smart, so he knew was gonNA cause of course. well one more thing. I want to tell you about before we. We round this down. You're talking about having a child and I've got four kids, and there was a question that came in about. You know how how my kids are doing through all of this. You know it's my. It's been a very interesting time in I've got a twelve year old daughter. My youngest turns thirteen today. It's birthday today. Birthday Happy Aja? and. You Know I. Look at her. And I, think about what what the world is going to be like for her when she's thirty forty years old what is the? Psychological. Imprint that's happening right now. And how is that going to be manifest in society? That exists when I'm long gone, right? Corona kids like what is. She hasn't been able to see any friends and we've been homeschooling her like she's gone through this period where she's been incredibly socially isolated like what is the impact of that? And on top of that. I can tell you. From. The perspective of my kids is turning thirteen math sixteen. Our boys are twenty three and twenty five. There so politically up to speed on everything by dint of social media, social music, a lot of problems, especially with young girls and that's a whole other podcast, but one thing one one thing that it is serving them well in is. Is is how informed they are about what's happening and how? Not only. Are they aware of what's going on like they? They are fully briefed on all the arguments about why things should be a certain way, and when I reflect back on what I was doing when I was thirteen or sixteen i. can tell you that the conversations that I was having with. My friends were not around civil rights and social justice. And the like, and that gives me great hope that doesn't mean that. This hasn't been a challenging time for them, but I think there is A. There's a There's a there's sort of this Christmas moment like they're being forged for. Lives of purpose. And the seeds of you know what is right and what is wrong, and what should the world look like are are being kind of like fertilized at the moment and I think that's happening all across the world Yeah, in this in. This doesn't have to be scary like this numerical. This new future were imagining right now together. it can be beneficial for everybody you know. I think that's. What what we WANNA, keep in. Mind is like I've seen some stuff online. Saying losing your privilege will feel like oppression. So, but don't be afraid and I. I don't feel like that's actually true. I feel like how I. Don't even understand that the the idea is right like the idea. Is that I think I've seen online as If you. If you freely give up your white privilege, it'll mean you get lasts or something, but I don't agree with that idea I think that. I think that what we want to do is create a place where everyone can have a better life and everyone will benefit so i. don't think There should be any fear of like you know losing your station in society or any of that Mall Shit. You know like you know there isn't. There is only us. It's a team. It's like we're we've. We haven't been behaving like a very good team in a fractured team. But we really actually are on a team and it'd nice if we had some leadership. If we had a coach, right, that could unify a little bit. Well, that's where that's where Joe comes in. Your. Good old Joe. Joe. Joe He's well we got. I hear you brother. Wouldn't it be funny if Bernie I mean it would be great. If Bernie was around here, he'd be He'd be screaming at the cameras saw my lower. Yeah, it's amazing that we don't actually talking about I know. Yeah, I, know, and you know there's all different. I think. I, think also, it's interesting. How relevant some of the things that Andrew Gang was talking about. It's like you be i. like the this is the moment he's ahead of the curve and bring that into public awareness. Absolutely, that's a real conversation that we should be having entered entertaining right and we got A. Check Yeah Yeah. He actually predicted it right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but we need to. I. Think we need to institutionalize that in a real way, not just this one check right and say we've dealt with it I mean certainly that that's not the case. No, no, no, no. There needs to be more effort, but COOMAN has. Sure if we if we asked you a lot of these. Is Yeah so here's the thing We started this with the idea of doing a an ask me anything. I went on the facebook group and said I'm going to be doing this, and they're like you know over one hundred comments and Adam dutifully went through all of them, and created a spreadsheet, and said you like there. I'm so long winded. We're only going to be able to answer like two or three of the, but the truth is. We have to talk about what's going on right now. So I understand and realize we didn't get to. we I, think we answered two questions. Yeah out of this, but. I think this went well. How do you feel Yeah, it was great man. This is I think we're going to be doing this. We're going to try to figure out a way to do this. On the regular and and that way we can sort of you know. Begin the process of of working through the questions that you that you want answered, and this is something that that I want to do. More of the podcast obviously has historically been about putting a spotlight on the guest and It's not about me but as I discussed in my my conversation with James Alter like he's. He's correct like there is a place on the show to have looser conversations where. I can share some of my insights, and there seems to be an interest in doing that so I wanna serve that and absolutely do this more and are the show notes, or are you going to direct people to different things? They can do reading or or I'll put some. I'll put some effort into the show and try to provide some some resources so that people can broaden their horizons and their perspectives. A friend of mine sent me a Google doc that had tons of amazing stuff on. It so I might just perfect. put a link so other people can access that same document, which is basically like a syllabus with all these links and books and. And I think that would probably do the trick for now perfect all right. Will you WANNA come back and do this again with me Hell Yeah. Do It all right. About sprouts awesome. Talk sprouts. It's funny because I did a podcast with an environmentalist. The other day, and just any talking about anything. Going on right now just feels awkward and it's tough. It's tough to get anything done, either you know. We're still in the midst of a global climate emergency. It's not like you know that went away. No, so it is important to also talk about other things, but you can't do that unless you're also engaged in what's happening right now? Agreed so and this. This is the moment that could unlock a lot of solutions if we if we let it, we follow if we walk through the door, together Well other than cooking new baby. Yeah, what else you got going on? Are you working on any? Or what are you writing right I? Am I've been working on have been wrestling with this novel that I've been wanting to write for a long long time and and so I'm I'm almost done with the very first raw draft of that, and then working on a nonfiction project kind of at the same time that can't announce anything about it yet, but so have been doing those two researching a little bit the nonfiction and doing this writing this novel, and then when stories come through, they come through the most recent thing I did. Journalism Wise was a story on surfing during the pandemic. For Near Time Sports, you also did a story on the wall. Yeah that was outside. That was in November late late. November, last year I think it came out and went down to Tucson and was there when they were building the first pieces of the wall through preserved in present National Park Land Rights. The Lens of the environmental impact of the environmental impact on cutting off wildlife corridors and the environmental impact to the wall. Because we basically what's been happening there, you know while this protests have been happening. He actually expanded these powers of the federal government to waive the endangered species act clean water act clean. Air Act twenty one I think it was environmental. Laws were waved with a stroke of trump's pen, and that became. became legal because of a very obscure law which which was passed during the w Bush. Years basically as a budget writer, and so that that was buried in as a budget writer in this bill that passed easily, and trump is the first to use it to sweeping sweep away. Environmental Laws to build any did it to build the wall just recently it to build anything so now you can. Those same laws have been waived. For construction projects in cities across the country, not infrastructure stuff, right, it's it's A. It's a bit of a slight of hand, because there's so much unrest right now, but behind the scenes there are measures being taken like this that are arranged from the news cycle that he is able to accomplish and get away with because we're. Our attention is placed elsewhere exactly so you always watch what that other hands doing luckily? Luckily there are lawyers that do watch that there are lawsuits. I mean obviously the walls being built. That's happening right now. but the more recent measure of I think it was last week. those will be challenged in court so no reason to panic just yet, but it just shows you where there where the mind of this administration is, and it's not an it's not for the benefit of everybody. Yeah. You Talk to Goggin Gan's lately. I haven't spoken with him lately. I speak with Jan. I spoke Jennifer more recently but I have not spoken with them lately but yeah, he He blew out his ears. Like, he blew out his. Stopping him. He's walking on his hands. I saw that I was like Oh my God I. Mean I think of you know? Obviously working with Goggin. It's been the highlight of my career. Think about the lessons. That he talks about all the time in my life and and and even now That's another thing to think about is is is is making sure you're honoring yourself and doing the hard work you need to do. no matter what's happening out in the world. The world's always going to be noisy in crazy. so takes time to do that too I would. would. I would tell all your listeners make sure you're doing what you need to do to. Sometimes it can feel like if me swimming in the ocean and doing some free diving and you know it seems like it's not fair, you know. Why am I doing that? When all this stuff's going on and I I just don't pay attention to that. You have to do also. Yourself. Yeah, you gotTa and and Know Goggin ines mantra is really. There are so many things in this world that you can't control. So stop being a victim. Take Control. You can control and you know. Take care of yourself right and and deal with the hard truths, yeah, or dealing with them. Yeah, and that's what we're dealing with right now. You know all right, my friend but We're going to be doing this again, so thank you if you want to If you want to find out more about Adam. Where's the best place to track you down? Adam. Skolnick Dot. com is my website and Adam twitter and answer no twitter instagram at Adam Skolnick at school. Adams vibe that says, La-. You really wanted to. Live in in the nineties when e mail I became a thing. It was Adams vibration? Adams VIBE AT YAHOO DOT COM. And then that became this thing but I i. I'm I think I'm going to fix that at some point. You know maybe because when you're seventy. Five! Okay. Awesome man, thank you so much. Appreciate it this superfund. Thanks again and I will link up everything in the show. Notes also link up Adam's stories that he was talking about and the good stuff, so go there. and. That's it for today I guess I'll just do. I can just do the altro now. Appreciate you guys listening to the show check shouts. All the links and resources find out more about Adam. I want to thank everybody. Help it on today's show Blake Curtis who video today show Jason Kam Yellow for doing the audio engineering Alli Rogers for portraits. My Boys Tyler trapper and hurry for the theme music for the podcast George Whaley for copyrighting. Who else was I forget? Jessica Miranda for her graphics of course awesome. we'll be back here in a couple of days with my conversation with Byron, Davis and Phil Allen Junior. It's a banger. You'RE GONNA love it can't. Be well. My friends piece bats.

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Mason and Ireland (Hr 2)

Mason & Ireland

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Mason and Ireland (Hr 2)

"ESPN? Okay. Mason on the air. You're on the right now. This is how Tony Romo. Split gronk like you are just a Romo. Hateful. All right. So Romo was asked by Richard J choosing media columnist. How is it that you're able to predict plays that happened before they happen? He says what would I do if I was right there at the quarterback position from their analysed, the possibilities, and you do permutations of what could possibly come about. The next thing. Are you're looking at the linemen on defense. The coverage based stuff who is covering who matchups whether things are manner zone. It's hard to give you one thing because on a specific place so much can happen. For instance, you might have chargers defensive end Melvin Ingram lined up inside. And they're trying to get a match up on a guard. So I might want to circle that or I see rob gronkowski a safety one on one. He's just playing quarterback. I think he's I think this is proof that he's getting that feed in Zere. You aren't he's not getting a feed is years thing. Jared Goff can't actually get here. The plays in Tony Romo is getting plays other game. So in the Super Bowl. This Goss helmet goes out, again, we're going to -ssume that somebody rerouted the audio to Romo from Gough Thiru Romo, but that's an interesting. Little tidbit that Gough or Sean Mannion's helmet. Yeah. That's your series. There should be some sort of investigation. Well, the interesting thing is that man's helmet. Worked and goff's didn't doesn't that automatically indicate Jaffa Taj. Somebody. Because the mood around with Jared goff's helmet. They cut the red wire the blue wire they cut by our blue Rier. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like when when people were talking about loud. So I obviously I was and they report for ten years. Dell does the job is to do different arenas have a different level of sound? Yes. So I carried with me several amps they're they're about the size of a quarter. And you could change how loud the sound was coming into your ears. So in like, Oakland or Oklahoma City or Sacramento when they were good. I would use the big amp the that would give me a tons of sound the other ones I'd use a regular what were the tough arenas Sacramento, and they were good very loud Oklahoma City every year because it's the only pro team they have there and right now the warriors because they're great, right? Those of the three where I use the the the louder amp did you ever have to use it with the Lakers? No. But but that's that has something to do with. A out of the building. Right. Yeah. And a lot of gets right. No. I never have to do it at Staples. Staples is never known for being exceptionally loud. It's also Staples is very cavernous yet. No, people are working too hard to be cool right loud. Well, the the way you can tell is when they put t shirts on the back of chairs in these arenas like every fan puts them on except at Laker games. Like you look around. And I'll say, oh, that's kind of a cool t-shirt. He goes. Yeah. You know, everybody has them everybody. How come no one's wearing them? They don't they're wearing it. Worrying hundred dollar, Ed harmony, t- Shami, Chung, shoes and stuff. Yeah. So so it's different. Tommy Cheung Shuzo Goff. They could have. I know the Rams equipment staff could have given Gough a louder amp. I think somebody cut the wire, I think they're sabotage here. I that's the only imagine. That's the only explanation with acne. That make up for the bad call at the end of the game. If somebody did that if somebody if if they went code red, we'll cut the wire mind goff's, remember when was it is jersey that somebody told after a stall after Brady won the Super Bowl, and they were able to go back and figure out who did it, right? There are cameras everywhere in this day and age Steve big brother is always watching if someone cut that why we're nine out about I want to know we're gonna find out about here's Patrick and chino. Hey, Patrick here on ESPN LA. Hi, hey, Steven, John. It's been a long time that you got down down south. But hey, let alone. Did I ever think my ranch would come back to Los Angeles Leno within three years make it to the Super Bowl again and tell you what couple of things that I that, you know, the excitement beam so big out here, John you remember when the targes made it a Super Bowl what happened right after they went to the after they beat the Steelers. Well, I not only remember Patrick. I called my boss. I was a TV reporter in San Diego. And I was doing the show with Mason. And I called my boss. I said you better have somebody ready when these guys get back to the airport because what happened you guys went on the air. Yup. Open day opened up the stadium all the bands way data. Dato the stadium again seventy thousand people in the stadium. Can you imagine they would have done that last night when they lewd that when they are trying to find, and they know but see the Rams aren't there yet, Patrick like I mentioned earlier that they're rating was lower than the national rating. More people in other states watched the ram game than we Sandra. So I don't think there would have been seventy thousand people at the airport. I don't think they win it. This is what they needed they needed a Super Bowl run if they win it. They'll have it from now, my friend Susan down in New Orleans says that being a saints fan is a religion in New Orleans that it is that and the fact that they were awful for so many years is one of the reasons why it became like religion. We've got three years under our belt along with a bunch of years. Well, but old guys who were there before. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. But here, but here's the thing. Now, the the FOX made a an inaccurate cooled on the bottom of the screen when they said about the the Ran's being the first NFC team to win and away game to go to the to go to the Super Bowl, and that's not accurate. The Rams did in nineteen seventy nine when they had to go to Tampa and B can't hone. Yeah. The Cowboys DeKalb boys. Did it in San Francisco? It's happened for. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know who gave you that. All right, Patrick. Thank you. Thank you. Call by the way, Michael Pearson who produces are afternoon show was at the Martin Luther King parade today. And he's commend wearing geeky. Looks very good which apparently. Download would you to the point of you couldn't finish your thought? Saying something that seen one before. I know I've seen one. Of course, I've seen one. I just I've never seen one on Michael Pearson and which trying to figure out today. Yes, it is a it is great, man. I just. Don't say it Mike Dino with a grand marshal the MLK brave. Let's this your Mace. I think I'm cheating. But I think it was Dave, rob. Yes seen him. And I said next year next year we're going to win it always said no this year. I saw that on your Instagram. Yes, man. So was at the Milquet parades. Where's the k per well, they have different ones Inglewood might have their own. I know maybe Compton might have their own different cities have their own. You go. I was at the L A one. Yes. That was mainly off of king boulevard between western and like Crenshaw boulevard. Okay. So over near the Coliseum Marte park and by cut about a calcium. Yep. Yeah. That's over by where your old theaters were. Yeah. Exactly. Now are telling me about the shaky. I just describe what her does she use to people. Comes from the African heritage and in mainly from African descent, and it's you know, that's pretty pretty much where it comes from. So. People who are nothing about African American culture. It's pretty much what everybody was wearing at the beginning. And the end of coming to America. Yes. Yes. There you go. There you go. Yeah. It's a good look into Sheikh ox wanna Rams color one in a USC color one. Because I like to do you have I have a couple. This is one I have that. I really liked them at other times rarely do. I really do I read, but I will wear Rams. I would wear Rams color when like like the say the dodger blue and gold that garnered bloom Graham gear. I would wear that game USC color once again, it's good looking good looking tribal baby. And you're still you're still rocking the AFC. Yeah. I would I wonder where all my Rams gear today. But I was like I have a lot of time. I'm just I'm really upset with these saints haters out there anybody that they just sounds like they really hate the Rams that they're vanishing. Well, no, they hate the fact that got screwed by the refs they got screw by the reps. But how long have we been in this and been around sports? Never let the refs decide your destiny. It should have been that close and guess what? At at overtime zero zero buddy at zero zero for All Saints got the ball for tennis at their house. Yup. We're playing when referee crew that we're Owen eight with a good thing. They let us play physical. Yes. Amen. I'm with Michael Pearson. Yeah. And by the way. Waiting this? With Michael the Martin Luther King. I have a dream speech greatest speech in American history. Is there better one? No, I throw it some I think there's some you can throw into the conversation. But at the end of the day, I think it's number one. I I actually through a couple of Reagan's out there. I think Reagan I've turned on this wall. We'll play it for you coming back. Yeah. And if you've never heard it, I think it's the best speech in American history. So we'll get we had that coming up. It is Martin Luther King day. So, you know, take Michael obviously took a moment at the at the parade. Remember what this day is about? It's not just a day off Mason and Ireland ESPN. Yeah. Michael pearson? Disappointed another aspect to then came Michael Thomas went off the first time, they played in this particular case, keep to leave made a huge difference on Michael Thomas and Kishan is wrong about that. I you know, I'd I'd want in the morning show during the week. I said key is their way to take Michael Thomas out of the game. And he said nice to good. They'll find ways to get him the ball. So I don't know not that not that Keyshawn has any routing in nephew. But but Michael Thomas can't catch the ball himself. Throw it to him. Yeah. So somewhere that process broke down. Either drew Brees thought he was too well covered or Sean Payton didn't throw him the ball. And that's another reason why the Rams won the game is they they bottled Michael Thomas up who had killed them in week nine. And it killed the eagles the week before. Yep. All right. So it is Martin Luther King day. And we try to do this every year. You know, the the great civil rights leader in America really did change the the world as we know it was part of the push for the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, all in the mid sixties and was tragically assassinated in nineteen sixty eight. But before that he delivered the most stirring speech in American history. Yeah, we were thinking about it. And we we think this is number one. If you were making the list of greatest speeches ever in American history. This is number one. Here is Dr Martin Luther King. One day. Name you will rise up. Live out the true, meaning of the pre. We hold is Jews to be self evident that all men are created. I agree. The label. Be able to sit down together at the papal of brotherhood. I have a dream. One of the names on the weather loved by map. Map again. But by come to that character. Hi. Every. Every mouth he'll be made. Would be made played and the criminal played will be made. That's portion of the IVA dream speech delivered in nineteen sixty three at the March on Washington at the Lincoln Memorial. Interesting story about that. So George Raveling kneeled USC basketball coach was a player in the Washington DC area and somebody came to his school. He's a college player, and it can't remember if he went to GW or American University camera which one, but so Raveling was at his school and somebody came by and said, hey, we need some for lack of a better term muscle. We need some big tall guys to stand behind Dr king. So if anyone gets a crazy idea of rushing, the podium, they know that there'd be big guys that they'd have to get through. So the coach of the basketball team said sure I got a couple of guys in one of them was Raveling. So if you watch that speech, you'll see a young George Raveling standing one of the people standing behind Dr king. So the speed. Ends. And Dr king says, you know, free at last free blasts got almighty free at last and walks away from the podium and Raveling notices that the text of the speech is still there. And he's he grabs it, and he says, Dr king, you forgot your speech. He goes go ahead and keep it George. I don't need it. And to this day. You're traveling has it. Well, now, the amazing thing is we have Ravin the show a lot. And he says that the text of the speech is not what you would think. It's not like today. Everybody would put that in a prompter. Right. It was guidelines nuts. I think George said that a lot of I have a dream on the note that he just, you know, took the notes that it was bullet points of what he wanted to mention, and he just winged it and George still hasn't. He's been the Smithsonian been after a lot of people have asked if he'd be willing to sell it. And he's always said, no, he's hanging onto it. And he says when he passes wail handed down to his family, which is kind of a cool that is backwards. Right. All right. So you're going to get into coming up. The ringer which I read every day. Has just written a story. Here's the headline Todd Gurley. The reigning offensive player of the year was out snapped. And outplayed by C J Anderson in Sunday's championship game. He says it wasn't his health. So what happened? We'll get into it next or some theories here that are interesting Mason and Ireland Rams on their win. Is. I hope so Super Bowl we're thirteen days away. I can tell you that. Although the station is not really. Divvying up any cash for me to go to the game. I'm find your way. Yeah. And one and I will be in that stadium for the Super Bowl. I'll do the show from Atlanta Monday after the game. And I think the morning show because they get all of the preferential treatment they will be at the Super Bowl. Really? So you're gonna send them they're going to send them and be there, and you pay your own way. Exactly. Okay. That's how it was. So righted girly Todd Gurley yesterday only get four carries. Yeah. Girlie told Lindsey theory who covers the Rams for us after the game that. It was not his health. Girly insists that he I want to get this exact, quote, he gave the Lindsay 'cause it's pretty good. He goes he said, I was sorry as hell today. I was sorry. So CJ did his thing the whole team did its thing. Now, I think most rampants don't want to believe that Sean McVay would ever bench Todd Gurley. Even if he was playing sorry. He's considered by some to be the best running back early. He has a captain see on his chest yet. He had twenty all purpose touchdowns this year. He did not play in the third quarter. And while C J Anderson was running the ball Gurley was on the sidelines on an exercise bike. So everyone is assuming that there's an injury that the Rams aren't talking about the girlies not talking about. But after the game Josina Anderson caught up with girly. And I think she got him in a moment where he was being completely honest. He's being very religious. She asked him. Directly about it. Here's girly, right? After the game. You got to put it into the where it's how does it feel to be going to the Super Bowl? God is good. God is good. I love my teammates. You know? We we saw you know, they all encourage me all game. You know, you know, when I had the mistakes that was all of my ear, and I really really loved his team. You know coaches everybody. It was unbelievable is unbelievable. It seems like you're almost two near tears. What is in your heart right now? Of the day. A lot of games so much of Madrid. It is all my life for us to be able to be in this position to mega to the Super Bowl. Oh, so it's such a great seven such good till you. Until now you didn't play in the third quarter. You came back into port where you heard what happened. No, I didn't play good in is there to be CJ within their. He did his thing. Everybody helped me down. We all helped each other. And we just we just got it done. We just got it done. Thank you, Lou. Thank you. Thank you. Lastly, what did the rand prove to the world which is going to the Super Bowl? We got one more thing to do. And that's just to win one more again. Thank you. All right. So it seems like he's being pretty honest there on the day rush for ten yards and a touchdown in four carries and caught one pass for three yards. His five touches from scrimmage where career low as whereas thirteen total yards the thirty two snaps girly played where the fewest in a game since his rookie year as well. As the fewest of any Rams offensive player that took the field Sunday. Yep. Steve you seen every ram game. What do you think happened with Todd Gurley? I know he acknowledged there that there was that he basically got benched he all but acknowledged that right, right? I still think there's an injury thing. I still think he's not right. I have a theory. Tell me if you think it holds water. Last year. Phero Cooper made an absolute critical turnover in the in the game loss against them. And that's why I'm going go McVeigh stuck with them. Right. Said. Hey, don't worry about it hanging there. Let's get them. Nick. Then Cooper did it again. Yup. And they lost the game and turnovers are just absolutely critical season. So girly early in the game had a pass go right through. I mean, all Sean Jeffrey right through his hand. Yes. I write that. And the saints ended up with an interception. Fortunately for the Rams their defense held the saints to a field goal then. Right after that on a critical third and six golf put a pass right in girlies hands. And he dropped it killed the drive is it possible that McVeigh looked at it and went oh God, he's checked out. Why we can't risk him? We can't risk him turn into nominate. Let me throw something back at you. So you weren't here last week when Sean. Mcvay was on the show. And I asked him what percentage healthy is Todd Gurley and Shaw McVeigh's answer was you'd have to ask tot. So in other words, he knew he was if he was one hundred zero healthy he would've said he would have said, he's good. He's good to go. Right. What percentage you'd have to ask tot? That's still suggests to me that something's not quite right. I mean, those who were there people that were on the sidelines at Gurley was applying heat to its knee. And he was riding the bike a lot especially in the second half. So I think you your theory that there is some type of an injury there might be right? And by the way, in the end, I mean, C J Anderson. You know, I think he had forty four yards Todd Gurley had twelve I mean, it was a day for Jared Goff is a great way or and and flip it to the saints. They didn't run the ball. Yeah. No. They just one of those days where you're going to win it through the air. Why pulled up who do you think the five according to pro football, focus? I've got the five most valuable defensive players yesterday the five most valuable shot. All right. Well, they know on a scale. On a scale, Lord or one of them has to be in dummy. Consumer Dhamma get sue is number three eighty graded out eighty three out of one hundred football focus, just because he always is there. I'll say Aaron Don Aaron Donald graded out at ninety five point two number one number one. Okay. Because Michael Thomas did nothing is a keep to leave on their keep Toledo's number five seventy seven point one out of one hundred just because he made the biggest play of the game is John Johnson on the Johnson's number. Are you really good at this game? John johnson. Number two, eighty four point two. You're missing one guy. He made a fantastic play at the end of the game. Okay. Well, it can't be Joyner because he screwed that thing up. Made a fantastic play at the end of the game at the very end of vents of player defensive player. Tasks won the game. It do they cancer line. It's a defensive Nicole Roby Coleman. Oh my gosh. Why wouldn't have got that? Right. It out at nine point one. But of course, he gets credit for past defense on that very last play. Right. So that that certainly helped him. But yeah, I thought it interesting that keep ta- leave is there and John Johnson the third is there. Those guys have a great gaze is definitely one of the reasons why Michael Thomas didn't have a great game yesterday. Let's do. Okay. Let's do offense the players since we're at five offensive players for the ranch yesterday. One has to be Goff. Jared Goff is number three seventy three point three on a scale of one hundred. I thought Brandin cooks was excellent. I'll I'll say he's in Brandin cooks is number four. Okay. Now do linemen count because the Rams line was great. Are there? Any linemen in the group. Yes, there are well, then take your pick put any of the linemen in there. All all say linemen, plural. Andrew Whitworth is their top graded offense played eighty one point five. And then I is there. Another skill position player on their two more scope position players, Gerald Everett had some huge Harold average sixty nine point four. On more and he's become one of Jared goff's favorite targets. Oh, tyler. He no not higby. The other the other favorite target. And what we'll watch Reynolds. Oh, yeah. Our Woodson do write it out at at a seventy. So those are at least cornering pro football, focus. I'm always amazed at this principle focus watches every single game in grades every single player in every single game. And release these numbers. It's a subscription thing that I subscribe to, but it's really valuable. It's a great way to know like who's playing really well and who's not playing really well. All right. So let me throw this into the mix and then we're going to do fast track. But we have a lot of ram Steph fasttrack. So we're not forgetting about the ramps on Peter King the great football writer. Yes, he's on social media right now doing in a campaign. He got a question here. It is. Is there a snowball's chance in hell that the NFL admits they were wrong in allowing the chargers to leave San Diego and gets them back down south. Here's kings answer. I don't see it. But it's hard to predict the future. They certainly aren't setting L A on fire, but dean Spanos tells me they're playing the long game will see entries of fact that this is even being discussed is fascinating to me because I think yesterday was checkmate in for the hearts and minds of LA a week after the chargers don't show up for a playoff game in New England. The Rams make it to the Super Bowl. If you're somebody looking for a team and your new NFL fan, or if you're a kid or jump just jumping on you know, much Rams merchandise is going to sell this week in LA and nobody's buying charger stuff. No. So. You know, I would like to think people say you don't make AFC wildcard shirts yet. I would like to say that, you know, people always say you can never go back. I've never believed that Phil Jackson got fired up by the Lakers came back and let them to two more titles. I really think you can always push Humpty Dumpty back together. The the new stadium in San Diego all would be forgiven. You totally agree with fasttrack coming up at first. Let me talk to you about my buddy, Matt Unger. You know him as the man from Lexus Santa Monica. Great dealership. Great people. Always there to help you. Now. Matt has added Toyota's Santa Monica, and he's the new GM there. So he has to dealerships. Now, he took all the Lexus skills and deals down the street to trae otas, Santa Monica, and he's running both places. First thing that did was add valley parking to make it easier to get in and out. Everybody knows how hard that can be in Santa Monica. Then Matt got his team busy to make the best guest experience for you customer service. This is where under makes the difference. He. He is the best car guy. No Mason, and I've been in business forever. We've seen a lot of car guides. Some are great summer a little sleazy. Matt is top of the list, but he's had a bad car buying experience. You just never get that. If you deal with Matt Unger goes zoo fleas now at two dealerships, Lexus, Santa Monica, and Toyota, Santa Monica pick up a card from both places. Toyota's Santa Monica and Lexa Santa Monica, proud members of the L A car guy family of dealerships fasttrack next ESPN, LA breaking news. All right time for fast brush by Rex Rex dedicated helping homeowners save using game changing technology a full service experience. No middleman, Rex cutting agent commissions by seventy percent to get started an unlock your savings. Visit Rex homes dot com. All right. John one side of the coin, let's let's put the Golden State Warriors on the other side of the coin. Let's put the injury ravaged Los Angeles Lakers tonight at Staples Center. Call it in the air. Well, of course, the Lakers beat him one twenty seven to one zero one at Golden State. They won't beat them by twenty six tonight, but they will win Lakers by three. We got the Lakers. You going to have to make a pilgrimage to a Saint for American for that. Now, the Rams are in the coverage. Workout right? All right mates. There are two hundred and twenty six former major league baseball players in the hall of fame, and they have one thing in common. Not a single one has arrived to Cooperstown as a unanimous selection. Babe Ruth, not Hank Aaron not Willie Mays not even Ted Williams or STAN Musial, Roberto Clementi. So Mark Townsend from Yahoo is asking this question will Mariano Rivera be the first ever unanimous choice. The closest we've come to a unanimous hall of Famer was Ken Griffey junior. In twenty sixteen junior was named on four hundred thirty seven of four hundred forty ballots that were cast hall of fame class gets announced. Tomorrow Rivera was named on one hundred percent of the one hundred and eighty five nomination ballots. So the nomination ballots. Everybody said, of course, he should be nominee will any of these ole school. Will baseball cranks? Keep Mariano Rivera from being unanimous. What do you think? Well. Let's say there's four hundred forty ballots, right? He's got to get all four forty even Kim by it's just in your top ten yet. If you just have to be named in the top ten on your Bali has to be the year right there. There are first of all I think the the voting body has gotten younger, right, right? So maybe there's so many other who like believes save should not be a thing. I want their name. I want to know who doesn't vote for Mario. I'm going to happen. You think it's gonna be unanimous? I mean, thanks because in this day and age to come out. Right. And I don't know who could possibly justify not voting. Yeah. For myron. We're I think this national travesty ends this year. I hope so Greg you say, no, I think no, I think one guy will do this just because it's like, you said names come out. So their name will be out they'll go. Yeah. Like Fred Hickman that one year didn't vote for shack for MVP. And he was the only one right? He they want their want to go on the radio show their fifteen minutes of fame. You might be right. All right. Let's see football's got a new threat. It's insurance new article by Steve fenra and Mark fan or Awada from the NFL directly facing stark new threat and evaluating insurance market that is fundamentally altering the economics of the sport squeezing and even killing off programs faced with higher costs. The NFL no longer has a general liability insurance covering a head trauma caused you to multiple surface. Sources just one carrier is willing to provide workers comp right now. Pop Warner little scholars which oversees two hundred and twenty five thousand youth players forced to switch insurers. John butler. Pop. Warner's executive director says quote, people say football will never go away. But if we can't get insurance it will will insurance be the end of football. No. Because insurance basically is a hedge fund game, you can get insured for. Almost anything at Lloyd's of London, David Lee. Roth the old lead singer van Halen had paternity insurance words, he paid Lloyd's of London. And if he got a girl pregnant, and she said, you're the father of my baby Lloyd's of London had to pay the paternal paid some outrageous some for like two million a year. So you could football can get out may cost them. Well, they could so much money that it becomes not cost fake could simply say, we're not ensuring against head Trump right and make wave and if you're a pop Warner league, how do you get insurance for kids ages have kids sign off their right? That's what they're going to have to do. They're going to sign a disclaimer that has nothing to do with my hand and being kids will ever say, no, I won't play football. Now. What's interesting about this is there? There becomes an bring this up on Martin Luther King day. They there becomes a racial component to this. Seventy percent of the NFL is black and. The inner city kids who are mostly being recruited by the Alabama's and the US the Florida's. So at some point is it morally conscionable to allow young black kids to sign away their rights, while young white kids played lacrosse and don't get hurt. So that's a national debate to. Yes, it is. But I can't see your questions. So I don't duck it. No. I don't think insurance will be the end of football because I think kids even fifty years from now we'll still sign away. The right. I think I do think pop Warner should stop playing tackle football that I think is made flag big issue is that when kids start young, you know, every one of those concussions and micro concussions are happening. I think there shouldn't be tackled football until kids get to high school. I don't I would support your plan. Their support the Mason plan there. You're listening to Caspian Los Angeles, all the all the Mason plants, by the way, or genius. That is not true. This is from Brady McCulloch at the L A times. Undescended first of this year for the first time since nineteen sixty eight when USC's men's basketball team, hosted Nevada. Yeah. There were no song girls at the Galen center on Saturday afternoon. When USC UCLA the song girls were not there all of this. Despite a persistent outcry by song alumni athletic donors, and parents of the current song girls who can't fathom why USC would take away opportunities for students to do something they love, but Lynn Swann has done. Just that in a press release swan is now telling anybody who asked that quote game management concerns time constraints and space issues are to blame and the song girls. Still don't think they've gotten an adequate explanation of why they've been told not to go to the basketball games part of me thinks that it's UNC basketball. And nobody goes to these games. Anyway. But another part of me thinks what event is not better by having the USC song girls, if it's anything if it's a swim. Meet so you understand what US's doing no cannot. And by the way, I think the US marching band plays the national anthem at at home games now in full disclosure. There is a USC dance team that plays to canned music, the song girls only to the band. Right. So the bands already there, but the song girls. The song girls are a great traditions. Mike just came tumbling to the to the growth. My the song girls are great tradition. I don't understand not having the song girls. Great. What am I missing here? White. What would be the reason to ban the song girls from USC basketball game? I can't think of one thing why it doesn't make any sense. They should be. They're always there UCLA has all their dance team. And in the song, and the USC son girls are famous for the brand. Yeah. I mean for the the skirts in the big USC across their chest. And they're all super good looking. Now, do you think it has anything to do with the me too era? I, you know, if you're not getting rid of them at the football games. Yeah. Why not have met vast line on the basketball game? So I think if it was something to do with. You know, women being treated ornamental, e or whatever then you don't want to celebrate that and you don't want to have the dance team. Right. But the other dance team and the song girls. They've if somebody knows let us know. Yeah. Twitter at Venice maze at LA Ireland. I cannot think of one reason why is doing this. Fouls. Chide comedy is in a period of extraordinary flux past two years of witness the reputations of revere comics such as Louis K as these Zaari implode in the metoo allegations. Stand up sir being held to account for problematic jokes. They've made online. Kevin Hart is nicks example that Michelle wolf did the White House correspondents dinner in two thousand eighteen it was received so badly that they this year. There will be no comedian right doing the correspondents' dinner. Is stand up comedy dead. Well, there's been a rise in political correctness that is hard to control. Here's my thought on this whole stand up comedy thing. There is no one putting a gun to your head to go. Listen to any particular comedian if you are offended by Louis C K, you don't have to follow them until she'll media. You don't have to watch performances the market will dictate whether or not his comedy will work or not. And I think that there is I thought the way that Kevin Hart was treated for something that happened ten years ago was a really bad warning sign for any comedian who accepts one of these gigs. Because now if you accept a gig to host, the Oscars host the Emmy's people are going to comb through your social media grants from ten years ago to see if you did anything offensive and times chain, but in furnace all Kevin Hart had to do was apologize right away. Great have been fun. He chose not to apologize. Yeah. But I thought he did after a while he did while. But you do it to me if we're laying at a no host Oscars. We we are nobody nobody wants to jump right because we've made it impossible. And you know, what here's the thing through the seventies. There were no host for the Oscars. Johnny Carson did some and a lot of them were no host Oscars. I don't think it's necessarily gonna make a difference in the show a little short ticket back to your original question. It's stand up comedy dead at least. And I went to a stand up night where it was anything offensive tons of stuff, but we're just not easily offended and the so we chose to go spend the night there. And listen to these guys some of the stuff, I laughed at some of this stuff. I didn't. But I'm I just don't understand. I think Louis C K. Should be able to do whatever he wants. And it's up to me whether or not I think, it's funny. And if I don't think it's funny. I don't have to pay is an extreme example because of sample because of your question because no. But he's not it's not because of what he said that he's in trouble. He is not what he's done. Well, and also he's not like he's getting now because apparently he told jokes about the power going parkland kids. I mean, I heard that routine. It's awfully which I can't imagine that anybody would find that funny. The punchline of that joke was people booed when he did the joke about the parkland kids, right? And he said don't Bumi my career's over anyway. Yeah. So I mean, he knows that he's down in flame. Right. My thought on that is let comedians do what they do. And then the market you, and I and everybody else will decide whether or not it works. Louis C K as already come to the conclusion that he's been phased out on the Mark. Well, here's the thing that comics are going to be. On right. We'll ever comics like smart comics, people like John appetite things. John Mullany made an appearance on Davidson, John Mullany is just more clever. He's smarter. Jerry Seinfeld is a frigging genius Dylan. I went to to Jerry Seinfeld concert in San Antonio a couple years ago. We watched him do ninety minutes without a bad word. You put it on the Disney channel just be really really good to be a comic nowadays. Yeah. And but I think that I'm in favor of leading comics push the limits, and then letting us decide whether or not it works. I don't want to put a muzzle on anybody. And I don't I don't either I don't either. But people have to realize that you've got to be better. You've got to be better. Probably. All right coming up next more fast track. We're back in two minutes. Mason and Ireland ESPN LA.

Rams Mason football Dr Martin Luther King Michael Thomas Jared Goff Todd Gurley USC Lakers basketball Josina Anderson LA Michael Pearson Steve fenra Tommy Cheung Shuzo Goff NFL Tony Romo George Raveling chargers
46. Len Elmore - NBA Player, Broadcaster, Professor

Big Fellas Basketball

31:50 min | 7 months ago

46. Len Elmore - NBA Player, Broadcaster, Professor

"Welcome to the big fellas podcast where we trap it up about all things past present and future about the game of basketball where facts. Stats and context reigns supreme blasphemous. Sometimes it gets crazy but we always keep it real. Always get ready to learn from players coaches and fans from all levels of the game and see the court and a brand new way and now fresh off the sidelines. Here's your host john. Hart oh phyllis what did you fellas and welcome to the big fellas basketball podcast. I'm your host. Jay h coming to you from new york city the mecca of basketball today. I'm excited to be joined by len. Elmore a new basketball legend. I spoke with land about what was like playing the nba and aba broadcasting one of the greatest college basketball games of all time and be a sports management professor at columbia university. We've got going in store for today. Fellas episode number forty six len elmore. Nba player broadcaster professor. Hi how are you good. John how are you doing. Great having a having a really good day hope you are as well and moving forward to this one. Yeah i am having a good day just to start off giving listeners kind of background and how you first got started as a kid we got. You introduced to the game. I i well you know. I was more of a baseball player growing up in in brooklyn projects in east new york and then moving to queens small little house in in a in a working class neighborhood and south queens Where they're more open spaces. But when i went to junior high school in woodside queens. I used to goof around with some of the kids My classmates as a little bit tall and most of them and You know one of the things that they were doing. We're playing half court basketball. You know being tall ball go up. I go both hands and tell people you know. I'd probably look like chief in cuckoo's nest all over my head and would move around but My head a Teacher who saw me recognize it has some athleticism plane. The other sports baseball football and asked if i'd be interested in playing against people my size of course that was Kind of taking advantage of my insecurity the intolerant and everyone else so he took me to this high school in manhattan plateful court. Little did i know it was tryout so half court i mean at half court they toss the ball up center gel a ticket and took off up still standing there. Because i don't know the rules. I didn't i'm curious. How do you guys know which way to run And that was my my baptism in basketball. Now of course Again without athleticism told what to do. Go get the ball off the rim. Don't let this guy score. Try to you know could shahandeh block the shot and i was able to do those things. And that's why my forte became more defense and rebounding to a great extent. I spent a couple of summers playing rucker and other places where i can hold my skills get embarrassed and ultimately learn from it and eventually by the time i was a junior a started a power as a sophomore but time of junior city and by the time i was a senior in high school. America it's crazy thinking about the transformation you made in high school and then in the pros ticket to the level while you're at high school a planet power moyal criminal jabbar only noticed cinder also wet. Obviously a great tradition of winning basketball. Bear was kind of like that. That high school scene like back then in in new york city when it was undoubtedly the making of basketball. Oh was highly competitive. There's no question about it. And one of the things that i enjoy was the fact that prior to our catholic school athletic association games. We got discriminate some of the public schools and we played the clinton we played voice. High really got into the mix of great public school basketball as well. We're a number of new york legends and stars with aaron. You learn a lot from played against those guys as well different styles but for most part we played Some summit a tougher schools in in our division. Obviously and play them well. My sophomore year was kind of learning experience my junior year nineteen and two lost malloy in the finals. Senior year were high school. National champions went undefeated got a chance to avenge her loss. Molloy but beating them you know by about twenty five in that in that final game but you know it was something power. Had a tradition and i. I didn't see myself as the next lew alcindor. Although a lot of people did i. I always joke that you know when i got there as a sophomore. Not having much basketball under my belt they would write articles and say the second coming in net all happened prior to the first day of practice after the second day of practice money sitting anything in so i recognize that we had a terrific team at two other guys on my team who are outstanding high school players at seriously in jap trimble seriously particularly was a legend. He jumped so high he named himself. Apollo eleven after the astronauts. But he had a you know a great reputation Jap trimble went with me to university of maryland seriously to duquesne and then transfer to saint jobs so a lot of people who know anything about new york basketball would recognize those names. Of course such a rich history there in terms of new york basketball standout high school career. You were looking at plan college. And you end up going to maryland. What was the college decision. Like few and obviously what a great career in maryland actress. Chris how that played out. The decision was relatively difficult because after my sophomore year going into my junior year letter started trickling but by the time i finished my junior year. Who's an avalanche of of offers. You know some of them. Too good to be true offers of money prestige and jobs. After i left i mean i it just about any under the table. Nonsense that you can think of. That's what i experienced from a lot of these coaches but you know staying on the straight narrow with a lot of help from my parents To recognize you know the folly. In many of those silly offers i cut a narrowed it down one of the state probably in the east even though i was contacted by the way in the south certainly contact but carolina duke midwest some of the other schools but once. I made it official. That was gonna stay in the east. I really wanted to go to saint. John's which is only a half half hour away from my house in queens but coach carnesecca left. After my junior year in high school he went to new york nets in the. Aba coach them. And that's when maryland swooped in the left zell and george raveling who became a pretty good college coach unto himself Coach allah washington state island in southern cal. Before going on to be a bigwig at nike. But i got a letter from them just about every day type of attention they gave you was tremendous and i wanted to go to a place where you could have some impact historically where you know my name would be remembered. As kind of reviving the schools basketball fortunes maryland was perfect for that because they had never really experienced a great deal of success and So when i made a decision to go there also remind people that was a catholic school. All boys catholic school student. And when i went to that idyllic campus between baltimore and washington. Dc So i could be close to some big cities. I also told myself. I'm gonna take a look at the. I ten young women on campus and if the majority were good luck in them going. So that's that's a boy going to a boys school combination of all. Those things really had had a great impact on my decision making it. My mother wanted me to go to princeton. Which i would've gone to you know i had seen. Acc vast long game. Many new york is going down south south carolina. So i i had somewhat of an affinity for these of course and to think about all the great stuff you would witness when you were there and being obviously want maryland's all time leading we difficult historic impact on that score as a whole and definitely remember there for generations to come as someone that really did change basketball for that for that school after graduating from there. Obviously you sell college career. We're looking at play professionally. Was that whole would that similar with the nba. There there about a month but had emerged yet and your decision and in going pro while we wanted to things that i was making sure of having heard the rumors that the listen to be potential merger and it might have happened prior to me getting there but certainly could happen after i got there. You know the indiana pacers of penetrated for my rights as first round pick in the nba and my agent and i did some research as far as their Solvency as an organization you know. Would they be one of the teams survivor. Merger or not and we felt that they would be Also drafted by the washington. Bullets now the wizards in the nba. In fact you know people think of the draft now of the pomp and circumstance all the pageantry being in In madison square garden or chicago and being on television guys waiting in that little green room area to be introduced and come up and shake hands with to commission. And we'll let it happen in our days. I happened to be visiting. My girlfriend was my wife over in the south of france. And we're in a bid and breakfasts and it's three o'clock in the morning and get an irate In owner innkeeper knocking on my door. French saying you got a telephone call. You woke up the whole family and the telephone call was that i was drafted by the washington bullets but we made a decision based on the offer which the bullets came in relatively low and cheap. Which is what the nba did at the time. They offered me a three year contract. Two of them guaranteed but the pacers offered five years. Guaranteed for more money and so obviously in recognizing the solvency and pay decided. Aba knowing that we ultimately be Be merged into the nba and it was a obviously a good decision because the three year deal only to guaranteed and my third year as a pro coming off a season where average almost fifteen eleven. I wound up hitting something in wreck in my knee that third year this just about all season except for about six games and you know i never was quite the same for a long time and i'd taken the bullets offer. I might not have played any further than three years in. Definitely a great decision on your part in both in hindsight and time with knowing that making a decision based on the tally career not just going straight to be able to realize that this team will at some point make it to the nba and and really play your cards right an respect. The aba is interesting because for some for someone my age unless you really really read up on it. You really won't know a lot of these details. They share with us. Thank you so much for for sharing that inside a baby an action wanted to bring up. I was looking up to prepare for this interview. I i saw some pictures of you. One of them was really interesting. Because you were setting up for charge. Dr j. was was going up a finger. I'm sure you've seen the picture before i have. So what was the what was the. What was the decision like in that moment to scrub to charge. I one of the highs flyers in league history. Well i was in position to do it. You know i don show wasn't going to block the shot so you might as well put your body on the line about sure what happened. He probably got the call. The call but A number great players. Obviously i played with you know one of the best. Aba players and really an nba player. Who won't talk about but you know so happy that several years ago. He made it to the knicks hall of fame. That's george mcginnis who i tell everyone. George mcginnis was lebron befall abroad with regard to body speed strength. You know touch all of those different things and billeted make plays off the bouts. Fine people he could post to shoot. The three georgia's was outstanding of a great players. Julius george gherman malone the light. I'm size settled trying to guard and it's difficult go. you know. I had my moments just so many great players. Unfortunately the merger came and cut a gain are do those guys particularly as people got a better chance to see them as nba players of a show daffy that much change my follow up question to the first one about the charge was. Was it a charger a block. What do you think. Did i have position you. You were set for a while. He was pretty if you that picture was taken. There's this space in between. So i feel like it's got to be a charming guy ever before it took off. I'm pretty sure well before. Definitely i mean we might have seen other if there any other pictures of different angles or opposite video would help a lot in some very good digging to find that. I'll send it to after we get off but definitely some great teammates and android begins to someone. That really doesn't get mentioned at all when it comes to all-time discussions but you always whether you're really digging it like let's say bill simmons's hall of fame pyramid. I i read that book over the summer. Wrote a bunch of pages on joining us. I'm like wow this guy like you hear about this guy. And he's not a any other lists. You need those bigger lists to see that and say wow if you will look into the sea but you can make a case to be a lot higher on a lot of these lessons especially when you watch for japan and you and you see the way play. Definitely a very good player. Well any anybody who really Celebrates themselves as aficionados the game would recognize The impact of george kinison his impact on the game itself. You know like. I said i was happy that he made it to the naismith hall of fame which was very fitting for the things that he was capable of doing. Obviously once you're playing career was over. You've transitioned into this into this very successful career whether it's teaching at columbia or your work as a lawyer. Once she retired. Were you interested in law kind of while you were playing in in college or something. That of really sparked an interest later on. Actually i wanted to be a lawyer. Since i was a kid growing up. I watched a lot of tv. When i wasn't playing sports or wasn't going to school. And you know. I was very moved by the lawyer shows. Perry mason the defenders and others who you know where the voice of the. Voiceless gave power to the powerless in at that time. The civil rights was was in full swing The warned vietnam protests against it were occurring in just overall change was was in the offing and i thought that law was a terrific vehicle where you could get involved in that change good. I kept with me throughout the whole time. Well no reasons. I went to maryland. Because i was given them advice. By that time. Senator joseph tidings lake senator joseph tidings about you know what he pursued before he went to law school using english major which i was and develop great writing skills and otherwise communicative skills. And that's something that i had always been interested in. Plus i had a hero that after reading books about him you know. I wanted to kind of emulate his life nose. Paul robeson who not only was a great athlete. But you know he was a human rights and civil rights advocate. He was all american. football player. Played baseball in the negro leagues. He was a lawyer. Graduated from columbia law school. The also was a classical singer. An actor as i said an advocate for human rights and civil rights and selena was kind of a renaissance man. And you know that really was really attracted to to people like that. I thought to myself you can do anything he wanted to. And that's kind of what i said to myself. So i can tell towards the end of my ninth year in the game that my knees were hurting. And you'd have much more time. Even though i had signed a two year contract with the knicks. So that's summer. I did my research and took the took the l. sets the the sat for law school. I gotta assume. I did reasonably well. And then i filled out. Applications was accepted pretty quickly to maryland. App applied to georgetown and some other schools. And my girlfriend. who's now my wife challenged needs. Said why don't you. Why don't you go for the best. Why don't you fill out a form of an application for harvard. And i looked at her. Said you're kidding. I'm not getting there. But i did it anyway. Kind of dare and here. It is coming into my tenth year. Playing we're playing the celtics nick and we're playing the celtics in boston in the playoffs and i get the letter of acceptance so i decided to go on an off day to go over to cambridge And walk around. Look at the library. Look at the common area the co-called student union and just get a feel for what life was like. Go sit and have a cup of coffee in harvard square. And i told myself okay. This is where you're going to be next year. Having been a little bit frustrated with the end of my career. And as i said i had another year left on my career but i just thought it was time to get started. And so that's when. I embarked on the pursuit of legal education. That's fantastic and my father about lemon. You and lived through a lot of those experiences and always whenever i talk about his decision to go into law always brings up a lot of the similar things that you did and it's interesting for me. Being so young to think about how different the world was back then and kind of the environment that he graduated college in compared to what. I'm about to graduate into right now. Definitely super entertained to think about those points and then when you brought up some of your mentors that can help you in that pursuit of the legal field. I it also proposed the question that i just thought of. What are the mentors did. You have maybe not just basketball. But obviously whether it's if there are other legal mentors if were mentors in life with your parents just was that for you to kind of show you the way to to be the best version yourself. Well i i would say it all begins. It began with my parents. You know my mother was from a little support town in louisiana but you know was a. She was a bright one second in her class in her high school class had actually gotten a scholarship to an abc you as southern university. But she couldn't accept it because the family was so poor she migrated to new york to be with my aunt her sister to clean buildings to be a part of the cleaning crew for buildings to be able to send money back home to louisiana. My father Left school at a tenth grade ultimately join. The army was a world. War two veteran Was over in japan during the with occupation forces. You know saw a little bit of action but in the end both recognize that In going nowhere without some semblance of education Since both of them have missed out on it and so when both of my parents let him getting city jobs in the city my father became sanitation man and my mother clerk and both impasse civil service test. They made sure that little house that we had and my siblings. And i had a place where we could do our homework. They called it the library but it was just a little corner of the basement that my father finished by hand at had a shelf. You know some book shelves in kind of a countertop and we could use as a desktop. And as i said we call it the library. We had a set of encyclopedias. At my family went into debt to get as well as a collection of bible stories that was the beginning and we kind of populated those shells with other books as time went on so they were extremely important emphasizing the strength and the need for education then. I think my high school coach jack cunard belajack unit. He and i spent a lot of time together because power play games at seven pm. I lived in queens which is an hour and a half so after school. I couldn't go home. So i stayed at the school. You know went out. Had a bite but would spend time with coach who lived in new jersey so he had to stick around as well and we had some great talks about life about Society particularly during those tumultuous times in the in the mid sixties late sixties sixty seven sixty eight particularly which you know sixty eight is reminiscent of today with the social upheaval. So he had a profound impact on me as well and would go for george raveling. The assistant coach at maryland taught me an awful lot about discipline. Also a lot about rebounding is pretty good. Rebounder himself at villanova. A couple years. That i spent came i learn. You know i can name a lot of people going forward but those are the people had the initial impact on me and then of course reading as as a young man i recognize the importance of of staying true to your discipline to be an activist for social justice to stand for what was right after. I read the autobiography of malcolm x and saw his transformational change and a young black men. During that time that was kind of a right of passage to read that book and understand who you are in the role that you play so as you can tell. China was awful. Lot that had influence on me during those times a. I'll carry them to to this day recognizing that i'm so much of of those people in those readings i found especially when you spoke about what you call. The library was a little corner in in your in your basement that your parents be a father built by hand thinking about how that duchess further major into the manual today in terms of in stone that skip hardware into you and then you now have the opportunity not to cash that onto students now when reteach at columbia. So what's kind of that role been like for you and now you're the mentor passing that information along and those teachings along to students. Today i've enjoyed it. Greatly been very fortunate to have students who really had a thirst for learning The way i got to columbia was You know kind of inbetween inbetween projects. If you will i. When i began once i got out of law school. I was a prosecutor in kings county. New york an assistant district attorney assessment. Almost four years. They're developing trial skills and learning the law and you know ultimately got an opportunity during that period of time to do television so i kind of two careers announcing as well as of legal profession and you know kinda went from public interests like the working for the government to private practice but all the while still do television. I got a point. Got to a point or i thought to do more and so i wanted to help other athletes in nineteen ninety-two immediately. After duke kentucky gables ruined look worse than i call the decided to step out become an agent and try to help the so many guys who've stories. I heard where defrauded otherwise aimless in for about five years agent. We were successful seven first round picks. Nba picks on a number of top football pixel olympic athletes. But you know the business of being an agent got to the point. Where if i was going to continue to be successful. I'd have to do things that would threaten my reputation and even my law licence as we know. That's the that's the problem with agents today competition to get get clients and so i decided to step away from that. Went back to law as well as ultimately You know regaining my ability to television so for thirty one years of tv announcer as well as an attorney. And so the reason i say that because in between and iran a couple of companies education technology company was also. Ceo of i- hoops was a joint venture of the nba. The ncaa trying to clean up youth basketball and establish a new paradigm. They're you know that didn't work very well. Because dr miles brand. Who was the president of the ncaa. At the time. This was his idea he passed away. The nba didn't seem nearly as interested in doing the right thing by this organization. I wound up leaving by all that to say that by the time i got to the idea of columbia. I thought to myself you know. I'm a masked all of this institution knowledge in so many different areas of leadership in in the business areas. Certainly in sports. You know what am i going to do with. I'm i quite honestly out sixty five years old at the time you know. I said i could retire. Go sit back and on my porch and watch the birdies fly in the sun. Come up but I decided you know there's more to do. And i've got this institutional knowledge. I'm not gonna be able to take it with me. Let me give it away and the thing that piqued my interest was athlete activism. Sing athletes step up chicken colin kaepernick and and try to do the right thing recognize responsibility that that he thought that he had. He believed that he had. And so with all of that. You know made my pitch columbia and it was accepted. And that's what i do right now. Teach number of courses that include athlete activism for social justice as well as leadership. So that's kind of the long way around to you. Know how i got to it. But as extremely fortunate that in the columbia sports management program that a lot of intelligence students who thirst for knowledge. Don't my working in It's been a pleasure great now going through there and columbia your broadcast career super interesting. Especially when considering. I mean chris shots of the most famous shots of all time i mean. Do you remember what your call was for. That or wasn't as michael. Since i was a color analyst and i know that we did analyze The fact that there are a couple of guys there. Leitner and jamal mashburn kentucky who would kinda define Our forward played the prototype the ability to step outside and shoot and put it on the floor of the athleticism jamal mashburn and both of them put on a show. We also talked about this season coaches mate. The most critical decision was rick. Pitino not putting a man on the ball trying to bother the view of the passing grant hill without a man on the ball grant hill saito ball perfectly from the baseline to the other free. Throw line where later caught. It was able to turn and face and knock down the shot and plenty of time The other thing that we looked at was the fact that when the balls in the air for that long players need to go after the ball. The ball's the you're entitled to the ball as much is offensive player so defense just stood there and watched late in a catch it. I'm sure a lot of it had to do with affected you know. They were Admonished in in the huddle prior to coming out don't file don't foul but that kind of freezes a defender and john pelfrey who's an assistant coach now somebody in on the college level aegis stood there and watch late in the catch the ball and didn't even really contest shot with fear pallet. I don't think that If they had played in my time. I don't think that passer made because we would've put a seven footer on the pastor or when the balls in the air was wanna get it remember my football days so but but those are the things that i thought. Were really interesting throughout the game. The pacing the play typically late news players perfect from the field perfect from the free throw line and then hits the winning shot. You know the the sudden is of all earnings would meet such a great gate. Patino kentucky could definitely use you. Lacing up that night have helped or on the sideline maybe with them instead of commentating to have been right. Next to him western. Maybe should put a big on the on the on the ball and might have been out of it all over coach. You might not listen to me. But i would've told him. Ironically rick pitino he. He was assistant coach with the knicks. When i played so we obviously had a history man in my mind. I was thinking ricky should have known better as you play you play. You knew what the game was like back. Then you want to put it on the bowler hat or played a little more physical have no question. There's no question about that. The place certainly the balls in the air you go get it and just to wrap up. I'm curious because you've experienced so much over the years in the basketball world. Academics with columbia. All that amazing stuff but what some advice. Now that you've had these experience that you would give back to a twenty year old. Elmore and kind of help him on his journey to make it a leisure for what somebody should give them I would say With regard to career go with your passion but you can't develop the passion unless you've experienced enough things to find out what it is that you're really good at and what it is that you really love so don't turn down opportunities unless you know there's just something that you don't want to do is you're interested in it and there is an opportunity to fulfil it go for it. I think again in the long run. I i. You know i'm doing well financially. But i think my riches if you will have come from the experiences that i've had you know i'm an older guy now and i can look back on all of those things and i don't think there are a lot of people who've had literally the same opportunities to experience the things that i didn't get back in many ways the way that i have and that's the other thing the recognize it. You know you have been given a if you have been given a great opportunity to do a lot of things and it's incumbent upon you to be able to give back kind of a continued at circle of karma and that's another area where up in reward so much emotionally Spiritually by being able to get back and help people in intern often. It will get an awful lot of health so you know those areas. I think extremely important you know and talk about anything material or anything like that. Those things will come or so important to keep that all in perspective realized that as great as the experiences of ban would also imagine. Makes you feel great. Looking back is knowing that you provided similar experience. Like that for the people around you and other people and those those you care about your family and all that you able to provide them with valuable experiences and new bless that's that's part of the karma continue of course and lamb. Thank you so much for coming today. And i learned so much from you and your your wisdom and your experiences both in the league in academics in all walks of life and i really appreciate you taking the time and can't wait to talk again soon. John pleasure his mind and look to listening to the big fellas. Podcast check us out on all major social media platforms at big fellows pod to join chapa. You can also listen to us on every podcast platform on the planet. Stay tuned for the next episode big fellas.

basketball nba maryland Aba new york george mcginnis george raveling Jay h len elmore queens small little house south queens shahandeh catholic school athletic assoc queens lew alcindor Jap trimble baseball carnesecca washington state island south south carolina
44 For Life

The Showtime Podcast with Lakers Legend Coop

46:31 min | 5 months ago

44 For Life

"The sometimes with coup podcast with my laker teammates and some nba legends. And in the house. Today is one legend. That i love mr bo kimble bo. You know what i don't know what was wrong with me but when i did my background on this start looking you up. I always thought you from los angeles. But you're not you from philly. Hey man i'm prowling from the city of brotherly love philadelphia. However i do associate la as my second home so we're talking to thirty five years of my tentacles there so la's definitely home as well. Well i'm gonna keep you here. I we don't get into a little bit of basketball and some other things what you're doing in the world today. I when i first contacted you. You told me you were comfortably retired. What is comfortably retired. Well brother cool when you work. Hard in the game that we love and And life after basketball take shape. You know i'm blessed to be able to get up every day for twenty five years and do a bo kimble wanna do and So Now i might have some extra lumps on my head Through that process. But i'm just blessed to just be living my dream coupe and you know i work hard and raising my family and keeping busy but probably retirement. I'm being into bose and that's and that's a blessing. Man has a bedroom. You wanna be to We don't get into years real quick. But i must say we definitely don't turn on this in nineteen eighty. We're playing philadelphia seventy sixers. Who were you rooting for the lakers. Or the sixers. During that time. I was rooting are always philly. I let me just say all sports everywhere. That's just the way it is. But i'm always rooting for la second. And so and that's just always been with the phillies with with With baseball same thing with the city's always with my childhood team but a special moment a coupe as you. I think you would recognize this during the loyola. Marymount time when you guys were when i was at loyola. You guys a win in two or three of your championships. So as a young player coming up and jessop myron a game loving and a game and seeing you guys just working it out. You re magic buyer yourself. I mean it was really a just a great time for me to be able to. You know to see a no you guys practicing and our gym everyday by the way love that and then see you guys had a level of success that you were doing and blessed to be able to play with you guys in the summer every year so that was really a blessing for me and was a great. It was highly inspiring to know that the work. I'm putting in when. I look your guys cars when i come out at the gym. Cna both you looking at my car and volkswagen. All i know is the legs with practice in. It was a lot of. It was either a bus out there or a lot of mercedes rolls royce and it was just a beautiful thing guys. I acted Expiration wanna be pro. Max them who was the coolest guy lakers. Then the coolest guy who was just the coolest. Actually i actually love the whole team. You imagine ev magic was man. Come on you gotta city but what is. It was really everything. Lakers was being the form going to the games. Rather you're active games or watching. It was it was the thing to do and it was that you get to. The forum club is a college kid absolutely. Oh oh i lived in the forum club. That was the second but again. It wasn't just that it was the winning. It was excitement. I mean it was the lakers. Were a big deal then just as they are right now about. We're going to jump back to philly and we're going get into your relationship and your friendship and the love you have with your your your your longtime friend who pass away. Hank gathers but take us back to philly. Tell us about dobbs tech high school. Yeah dobbins tech so so hang. Abbas and i played a dobbins together in high school in philadelphia we. I didn't realize coop until i was my senior year that we ended up. We only lost five games in three years The time being on the varsity. And i didn't realize that reading the program so but it was a great experience and actually when i left dobbins i was trying to go to a place. Where actually hank gathers wasn't you know just growing up sometimes when you had two great players sometimes it's not enough basketball so and so but hang. Gather sign to go to usc. I university of southern california. I and guessing about three weeks or months later i ended up going to usc. We were thoroughly recruited by a david spencer who came to eighteen games. Coop are seeing a year and so that was a big deal. You showing a lot of interest coming from la. You know eighteen times so eventually we ended up being there together. We go to usc Start all but three games at usc. Understand martian and David spencer. At hank i was on the all freshman team so my career is on the way and then hang out play significant minutes as a freshman and we we actually had the best. Whip the six best recruiting team that year. The nation okay. We'll get into that. But i want to stay in high school for men. Who who's the best player that you went up against growing up either on the street or at dobbins high school. Wow the best player. I played against There was a guy in my neighborhood. Woody your playground and his name was lee choice. He was a guard and he really reminds me. You know we we. All know. Growing up is a lot of playground legends. Well he was in legend to me choice. So i would sit down. I'll be sitting watching the game. And this guy's like a black version of larry bird not jumping ha not super fast. But i can tell you one thing. You can't stop giving you thirty five a night. And he was a nightmare other than him. It was a guy by the name of rico washington the late rico. Washington was a hang gathers type of player. Didn't shoot any jump shots but this guy won't get you forty and night and he's just dominate you but he had kinda karl malone type physique so we had a lot of great simmons growing up. Who richardson with pretty nice. But philly basketball man was like you know in my neighborhood. My neighborhood raise me a coup. I'm talking about from age ten to eighteen. I'm playing like twelve hours a day. And i'm going up against guys this ten fifteen years older than me and so during that twelve hours a day by time. I got fourteen fifteen. There was a new sheriff in town. Coup and i knew that. Look if i can hold my own against these guys are bigger better faster that i knew that at least when i got the ball at the end of the game i felt from eight fourteen. Nobody can stop me. And i love that power back and that's just how i felt how. How tall were you back in high school. I was probably six three six. Four height mega challenge shorter in high school. I i didn't start grotto. I got into junior college. I was always like that frail. Little skinny kid. Nobody our got picked last night. I had to get there early. Picking on team and pick up basketball. You were just force already Well you know. A matter of fact. I was around that six one six two but you know back in the day and the playground. Remember you lose a game. You're gonna sit for about four or five games and as being a younger guy. You know everybody's doing anything they can do to win cheating the elbow and you go and all of that stuff. Nobody wants to lose so that whole experience by going up against the best of every day you know eight years of that. By the time. I really got to college I just had a sense of a inner confidence that really. I had a mental advantage over people. And i never let me noted. They didn't know what how i was. Raise but growing up in philly if you can if you can make it out of north philly On the court and off the court you can. You can handle yourself in any environment anywhere in the world hours. Who are some of your mentors growing up whether it be Your mom and dad a schoolteacher. Gym teacher The who who some of your mentors. The nba season is back. Don't sit on the sidelines. Get in on the accident at exclusive partner bet online dot. Ag sign up today for a free account at bed online dot ag and use the promo code c. l. Ns fifty to get your fifty percents. Bonus that fifty percent extra cash at silent with cold c. l. ns fifty get incited to all the nba action across the season. Plus all sports professions collegiate as well as pop culture and even reality television wagering. Don't sit on the sideline anymore. Get in on the fun. In-season action at bev online. Don't forget to use my special. Michael cooper promo code a. c. l. Ns fifty to get a fifty percent sign up bonus with your first deposit that online today at bell online dot ag your online sportsbook expert. Who are some of your mentors growing up whether it be your mom and dad schoolteacher gym teacher. Who who some of your mentors. My greatest to while my greatest three influence in life in. I can live to be two hundred coupe and nobody could ever out last this three. My grandfather and grandmother was the mother and pastor of the church and so the first sixteen years of my life. I was front row doing all the services at a church. And the only way i can get out of going to church for sixteen years is if i was smart enough to hottest shoe right when it's time for everybody leave it. Everybody just be like. Hey we can't wait for this boy and every once in a while maybe once a month might pull that trick and my mom got smart and say. Hey you're going to church with no shoes but you go on with us today. So that didn't work with so much and then my mother would be the third greatest influence on my life and the reason is every it was. You know that movie so called soul food you now where it every sunday. You have the dinner together to family together when we did that. Every every sunday for sixteen years. And when you have loved you have family in and guarding life That makes me the person i am. Today i'm very nice. Open to prejudge. People of. They had the greatest influence on me. I'm blessed to have a david spencer who actually recruited me to go to usc. As i mentioned he's a zakar. My will as we speak. And i'm the executor of his so. I was blessed that the person that i trusted at age sixteen is still in my life now. Has down of the most influential person. Outside of my family is responsive. So i've had. I've been blessed to have so many mentors that saw something in me cool and eighteen when i was younger that whatever they saw in me they they would give me advice so imagine a thousand people giving you advice and no matter what comes out of their mouth. They will say. Make sure you get your education. Son gets go to schools and i hated school hated school with a passion but thank god. I woke up before it was too late at all. I feel like my neighborhood. And all the people that saw greatness and may allow me to be the person. I am the way i talked to address the way i conduct myself. That's an extension of all the people that had their hand on my life even a many of them have a guide is called on. But you know i i. I'm gonna reflection of them. Hey listen to this. Show time with. We got bo. Kimble in here and bo. You know what. That's what i always say about. Today's youth is that people are until the pandemic hit people were so engulfed into their everyday. Life is that they forgot about the church. And i never wanna push my religion on anyone. But i'm like you. I went to church bowl until they are born and only time. I did not go to church. When i went to college because i went to church three times a day. My family's very religious so as good to hear That side of you because a lot of people need to hear that. Because i think that's lost in our family values boat who talked to you the fundamentals of the game actually coup back to what your play. Graham it was. It was a calm first of all. What are your playground in the older people i was playing against i self taught myself because it was survival in the love of the game and just love playing basketball honey hill in philadelphia and it was sunny hill. Hilmi you have everyone from the suburbs all everybody in the city and you're plan against the d. Best in the city older. You know at the whole gamut so you gotta come up through that. Do that levels of break players i am. We're talking about tyrod legends. So both both before you keep going. Let let me already. You know who sunny hill is. Yeah for the name before okay. Seventy hill was a flamboyant guy big and love basketball and loved his players. Yeah sharper nell and nice suits and the hats and all that stuff but sunny really allow guys like myself. Not only the play in his lead locally but he had a traveling team and we will go to. Dc go to new york and so we were playing against other people outside the state in virginia. So that was a great experience to coming up through that. So that journey coupe. And as i've met your kids today and try to look back on. What was i thinking. When i was fourteen when i put on this new sheriff badge on the court. What how many hours was i- plane had enough. Stay away from you know how basketball me away from people. That was some of my friends. That wasn't doing there probably wasn't dedicated to school. Probably didn't wanna get a educate you know how do you navigate through forces basketball kana and going up against stronger bigger better faster. People every day is how. I got my skill set to be quite honest and self taught myself just by a plan on the court of a game called. It was called rough outs. And i don't know what they call it on the west coast but you're gone up as you against whatever amount of players ended on the court and you plan to thirty five so you know as to when you get to the two points to score and then you get three chances at the line you come off you play against everybody so scorn on two and three guys with pretty easy for me because many times when you got the more the higher you get thirty five you got four or five guys on you and i used to win the game like five ninety percent of the time i went in the game so you learn how to shoot with people hanging on you so all of those things was just me living on the court for twelve hours a day for eight years. We've talked about cambo. The philly phanom were beaten four or five players and the game so that both finish up at dobbins high school and now you're being recruited and you get recruited by usc. Okay you. You're part of that freshman four class. That was supposed to be this elite class with yourself. Hank gathers tom lewis from modern day. Tom the big big man and grits grinding yup. How does that all work out for you. Guys so Again you know that experience coming from north philadelphia come into the west coast Tom lewis was the big story. You know and and davis benson used to tell us. He's to tell a standards and all the time. I know you love tom. And thomas. great. We'll wait until you see the philly boys hakin bo. You know we just came with the more physical urban city type of play and as you know was very physical i would i had a finesse am physical game but mentally coming with a usc. We had a nice strong nucleus of four players. We had our freshman year. At usc we had dared dow. We had the late. Larry friend who are point guard so we had a success that year. If they didn't fire standards and david spencer. The ad denuded if you didn't get rid of them. Now we going to be a really really amazing team the next three or four years so unfortunately they fire stan morrison and david spencer and so there was a big to do about. Are we staying. Are we leaving so night before we get our letter. Though by the way is all over the paper. What are they gonna do already staying. Are they going so. This is like two weeks so one week before finals. So i i might look. I don't. I'm not making any decision on anything because of our past these finals. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not able to stay here. And i can't move on to go somewhere else so hank can. I have argument at a restaurant the night before and hanks didn't go to. We didn't go to usc together. Hank signed. i don't like. I said dr goes where else. But so we are with an argument. It was a really heated dinner and the bottom line is hank was really pissed because i had told him man. I'm outta here. When i met with joe when i met with george raveling he kept calling me bo. I mean he kept calling me hank so i knew i knew when he was meanwhile hank he kept calling hang boat. So i'm thinking like i'm a people person something like this is not gonna work. I've start like. I said i started all but three games on off right from the pack. You know the pac ten freshman you should know. Why am i. You know go on so so that just didn't sit well with me the next day hang says to me. Did you get your letter on my man. What you're talking about. So hank got a letter saying that. If we didn't decide immediately that are scholarships wasn't going to be renewed. Let let me interrupt for a second bowl. Because coach raveling came in and i was reading up on this and i thought he made a very insensitive comment because when he came in and this is something he said about you guys you can't let the indians run the reservation so when he said that. I may have some kind of a decision for you leaving. No actually the be quite honest. I really liked george raveling. I wasn't happy about the initial change. Obviously but i you know he was a black coach. He was from philadelphia. So i was kind of open to giving him the benefit of the doubt. But the thing kind of didn't sit well with me much and i understood it from a coaching standpoint. I mentioned the name the not not getting our names right but he also said it was a lot of talk in the press about him. Bring our guys out here. Not no i could hold my own but he said hey you know everybody's going to have to earn a position again but again as a young guy made off pat tenting. Hey well you gotta earn it again. Rather i'm getting it. I'm filling like hey that i didn't like that decision as well and then But more importantly even though i like georgia's a person it just as a people person he was sitting back in chairman like he albertino man. You know like it. It just it just and i'm sure he probably didn't mean to do that. But all the signals that i was looking for just wasn't lined up and so But again you know the best thing that ever could happen is for us to go to lola because we didn't want to leave you as we love. Usc oh my god we did but We just had to make that move. And so hanks looking like he losses his his goal. And he's all sad and stuff with the letter. And i'm like up man what we talking about when you get your letter. What letter so. But obviously we they were recommending that. We didn't make a decision immediately that they were going to not renew our scholarships and it didn't matter to me. Because i was mentally gone the night before i told him after i met with george i just wanted a change recruited by everybody man so i i had options and i was going you know explorer bo point of our show was called coupes. Lightning round. 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Visit blue dot com and get your first shipment free when you use our special promo code. Showtime just paid five dollars again that's b. l. u. e. chew dot com promo code showtime to try it. Free bluetooth is the better cheaper choice. And we thank our sponsor blue for this podcast and remember when you support our sponsors. You can help make this podcast possible. So please be sure to use our promo code showtime at blue dot com that showtime at blue dot com. And stay ready. Hey that's bo kimble. Who listened to showtime with coop podcast and we got vote in the house boat. We're at the point of our show was called coupes lightning round. I'm going to give you some names and you just give me a little bit about about that person. Okay okay. Rose person west. Leonard west leonard. Oh my god. West lennart was three centers. So as westland are you referring to me. Let's go to the next level. Okay stan morrison great person. Great coach great motivator and great excellent guy. Harriet tubman trailblazer Great leader to follow at impact on our society today at people need to read up on our history doors rattling great guy. Great coach innovator love the fact he's worked with nike and or one of the one of the sleeker teams and have a great respect for him as a coach. Paul westhead best coach ever best coaching. For me. ed players like hank gathers and hopefully one day. I get the chance to be a coach in division. Wanted and run the system The late great black activist medgar evers. Sorry i don't know who. That is i apologize. You gotta read up on him. Bow on now her name. But i do not know anything about apologize. Evers black activists got assassinated and last. But not least your friend. We're going to get more into him. The late great hank gathers oh my god determine a great guy comedian funniest guy you could ever imagine being around killer instinct smart witty at a icon and a leader. So you is leave. Usa and you find your way to loyola marymount. What was that like new environment and the run that you guys made through that while cook leaving. Usc most people give right arm to get in and we just thousand goto loyola but we saw the tape. That paul westhead showed us and it looked like it was edit but it wasn't and when he showed that tape coop. I can tell you that. I'm looking at the tape. And i'm saying coachella like edit and he said no it's not an edit and i'm thinking they ran up and down the court eleven times you ran in the system so you already know what that's like what he was encouraging us. They ran fifteen times up in court without a time out. And he's like this is the way you're gonna play when you come here now. Remember the mindset of the fifteen sixteen year old. Who knows that. He can't be stopped in offense like this. I'm thinking there's no place in the world that i'd rather be. Because i already knew that in that type of system. The sky's the limit for me and my chances are going to the nba Is is going you know. This is a great opportunity. Even though it was a smaller school we were blessed to put them on a map. And i know head was thinking like oh man you. These guys will be shooting a hundred times a game. What hanks coming down the court and four seconds getting Every shot we miss. he's rebounding against ours putting in loose change and but he also had the freedom to not only get a rebound if the garment wasn't available With his skills he was able to go coast to coast. We never had to worry about missing five or six shots in a row You know our host system was geared on all of our shooters. If i'm open twenty times in a row coup. The ball's going up twenty times in a row with no hesitation. Not just me. But all the shooters when hank got the ball in the paint it was up to hate two guys audit if he wanted to pass. That's on him. But wasn't encouraged the past. If you had a shot that you can make but for us for our skills that come from philly with the great role players that we had jeff. Fryer tom peabody chris. Night all of the guys that we we believed in what we were doing. We believed in the system and we felt that if as long as we run our system that we were capable of beating anybody and unfortunately went. Hank died our team. You know we missed about We paid about four or five games for about a month when hank fan at the first time and we were able to be oregon state up in oregon state. We had a close game against oklahoma. I score fifty points or more five games in a row would hate wasn't on the court but yeah because i got extra touches so but we felt that time early in the year that we would be able to lease hold on. We thought that we still can beat teams. What hank gathers not on a court. But i humbly fill that if we had hank hank was alive with us. Averaging one hundred twenty five points a game we would have been national champs and going up against. Unlv for the second time they wouldn't have been able to call a fake bomb threat in vegas like they did stop at twenty eight to four run and then when we if it was alive in the tournament you would have been down by twenty. 'cause they average one five and we average one twenty four now for our listeners gathers six seven six eight probably at that time while the most dominating college players in the game Hank could shoot the fifteen foot jumper but his forte was. He was a beast. Bonding boards man. And you know a bowl. I was watching the game. And i remember after i think it was a inbounds or the free throw but remember him stumbling across the court and he just fell and i mean that shocked so many people got you guys at home court. What was going through your mind when you saw that. Now that you mention that hit passed out a little bit before a couple of games before he gets back on the court the doctors clear him and it ended up him having an enlarged heart But when that happened what was running through your mind. Because that's a friend laying on the ground and then what was going through the team's mind. Yes so you know people that knew hank particularly our team you know handles like the strongest man in the world like just personality. Wise physique wise the main heck was a beast as you said like very tough in the paint. And i love sharing a story to just put it in perspective. Coming out of philadelphia so remember. We felt that it would planning as people bigger faster and better. We feel that we're still able to beat you. We still on out play but more important. We're going to hold our own against the best. Hank gathers on the court store share with people. We know how dominant shaquille o'neal turned out to be an nba but a younger shaquille and a younger hank gathers we played them at lsu shack had stanley robbers both to further. I mean seven footers at gathered six six going up against those two. Hey got the first seven shots against those two. He walked off the court in overtime with forty eight points and eighteen rebounds and stanley robbers sort of put it in perspective of every. Nba team was there to see that game because they wanted to see him him could play against older stronger players in the nba. Well that put that doubt to bed. And that's i love sharing that story because it just tells you the kind when you say beast it just lets. You know the level of determination and and drive that hank had knowing that everybody's there to see him play that we're not gonna quit to enter the game tom. So when hank fell the first time you know That was the first time being aware of any kind of heart situation at all. And and hindsight. When i look at the second time that he fell. I wish that i knew that they had a defibrillator on the team. Because i'm now cpr instructor. And i didn't even know we had a defibrillator. So is a is a perfect example of in a panic stressful situation. We had two doctors there. We had our trainer there. We had our coached there. You know people who knew at least three afford them new that there was a definitive but no one just in a panic situation we should have got the later revived them a set of like just doing everything but getting a defibrillator. Everybody loves hake. Our team loved hank. Hank was our our spiritual leader. We're both captains of the team And i was always a quiet leader. Lead by example head was our our spiritual leader. And when hank passed on you know we decided to go. Our whole team decided. We're gonna play an honor of. Hey and i tried to tell the team as the captain like no. We love hank rather we went one game in this tournament. Let's put our play our focus on not that because we love him. We wanna lose coop at eighty. Rt that when one and not the other because when that ball went up man everybody was playing for the love of hank and i really thought that we were going to be able to winning the entire tournament even without hang because a level of success. We had when he fainted diverse. But i can tell you. We had a stronger sense of purpose our entire team through the tournament. We thought like for the first off tournament. I felt like. I had the energy in a strip of two people with higher running faster but i know our team felt the same way but we hang and he inspired us to play but we inspired the nation and most humbling things. Thirty thirty one years later is people still remember. Hank gathers they still remember that fun. Running gun shoot every four seconds type of offense and they still remember the left hand free throw and Say yet say tribute to him was every time he shot her first free throw. You sounded left handed. And you're making them. Yeah at an. I can tell you. Every time. I see the. I've seen a over two hundred times or so and every time i see it now i can remember exactly how i felt that that moment and it was all about the free throw. Shooting was hank was so bad as a free throw shooter that he switched from his right hand to his left hand and elegance nucle- because you free throw. Yeah yeah so. I want as someone to play for eleven years. I admired that. He put the effort in to appoint senior year shooting with the opposite hand. He felt more comfortable down a little bit better so for me personally instead of doing with some of our teammates Writing his name on the sneakers and things like that. I said i'm gonna shoot the first free throw left handed from the moment i got filed in all three deterrment games. The only thing i was thinking about was hank gathers love you. Man miss you. Man i was. It was almost coop. Like i blocked the entire stadium and i'm literally by myself is just me and hey that's how i felt. I remember that moment. And for me. Personally i made sure i let everybody know. Hey man i'm right handed. This is the you know. It wasn't really about making the shot. I mean. I like to make it but no it wasn't gonna change my the the spirit of what i was. The reason i was shooting at the free throw is like i love you. Man i miss you man and attribute but like you said cool guy. Working mysterious ways and hank. I'm sure probably helped. The spirit was helped make the chicago. I was three for three in the tournament. Let me ask you this. Both hank passes on you go to the nba and then another tragic incident almost identical to hang with. Reggie lewis at the boston. I don't know if you saw that. I fortunate to see that one to what was going through your mind when you saw that. Here's another great player in the prime of their life. A young player that plan the game they love and be taken down a with sudden cardiac arrest. I'm it was. It was heartbreaking. And and reggie was you know had already really made his mark in the league. I mean as a young upcoming star. So unfortunately hank gathers didn't get that opportunity so when you see that you know you had other players who had that situation too and i felt that i always try to encourage people that you had that hyper char the behalf that a situation a large heart you know as you might wanna think twice about taking the risk because you know even if you even if you walk away from the game. There's no guarantee that you know you're going to get rid of the element or the disease. But at the same time you might have a longer life but you know guy works away. Works in the. But i was so sad to see that happened to reggie lewis because he really was a great player. Of course it reminded me hang gathers so bold. You guys make that fantastic wrong. You'd make it to the elite eight. You ended up getting beat. But i mean the seemed like the whole country behind you guys who that tournament there and now you find yourself being drafted by the los angeles clippers eight pick in that draft. What were your expectations coming to the while coop. I was super excited. Because i actually wanted to. To stay in l. a. And i knew the clippers had a pick and one of wanted to bad choices that we did make a lot of people didn't know is we told the other teams from one to seven if you draft me. I'm going to go to europe. That probably wasn't probably wasn't the folks you know. That probably wasn't a good choice. But you know with being in la having a following. We had with marketing. You know we just thought that. Was you know decision that we made at the time. Another thing that people didn't know who is that. I had a clause in my contract. That we i didn't want along. Hold out loud. Players get along holdout. So i signed the second day but we had a clause in the contract that had that had incentives that was so easy to get for example. Like if i averaged fifteen minutes of tom per game. I make three hundred grand on a five year contract. Well the clippers at that time with their mindset and of course the knicks follow suit. They did the same thing they they're looking at. Oh we're gonna save three hundred grand a year and we're gonna make sure that he don't play over fifteen minutes a game. Why and i only knew that about five years ago. When elgin baylor told me about it. And i couldn't believe it i'm like well. How come you didn't tell me this about twenty years ago. So i would've took that clause out and i probably would've had a chance to have a couple New contracts but i was very excited to be in la. I was excited to play for the clippers But i didn't get a chance to play because of that. That clause in the and plus. Here's another key point. Eight nine thousand. Nine hundred ninety was the first year of the collective bargaining agreement where the rookies accommodated making more than the vets. And believe me when i tell you. Nobody's happy to see that somebody who hadn't even touched the ball yet. And you come to the clippers. And i'm the second highest paid player on the team with the next. I was the third highest paid player on the team. So that wasn't well received. So i'm coming off the picchu and gary pant give me a gary grant is giving me nothing ankle passes because he know if he give me a good pass. You know you know it's up in so But it was that kind of stuff. Clippers were young team. We were very talented. We went to the playoffs above year. I was there. But i still overall just was very proud of my dream came true i was happy to be a clipper happy to be in. La with the following ahead in california a- both jim go ahead our jeanne delivers. Well my favorite screen galway's the lakers. But they didn't have these coupes. David i was a diehard laker fan. But i knew that the clinton and i was very happy to stay. I wanted to stay in la because of my father would In la so but it didn't couple if the clippers draft being most people's clippers draft be. I'll i'll go play your up so boneless you Indian career and you go overseas. What do you think of the nba. Today while yes so one of the things that the younger players versus the guys like magic you know all of the zeya you know the the older generations the way like for example larry bird would never want to be treated to the lakers to have some two two or three it would never happen as air will never even though as i was great wit with magic eight. You know that rivalry same. You get what i'm saying. So that old school thinking and anaesthetic i think dedication and approach to the game i give it to our generation at odor. The made generation of players just had a different approach to the game now the younger generation. They're blessed to be able to follow the footsteps. You guys laid out for you. Know the legends laid out with the big contracts. But they're so athletic. They're jumping out of the gym. A now have more distractions with social media and is all about the a lot of the stuff that's going on outside the game. That sometimes they. I think they get distracted but i still love the game. I know those guys love the game. But it's a lot more distractions decor and a lot more things that they gotta worry about is a lot more things that could lot more pitfalls because they are so open with everything you do is so much more magnified because the social media. And you're a walking target. If bo kimble with planning the nba. Today we're kind of money. would you command man. I'd be about two hundred million bucks right now. Third contract that. So when i came out out blessed to have a a ten million dollar contract as a pick these guys now i believe as pick is around sixty million. I mean you know. I would love to be fifteen twenty years younger. You know. i'll love to be twenty years younger with the mindset in the dna. That i have the day but you know again. you know. We're blessed coop to follow our dream to have one day in the lead. In your case you played many many years and had a long career with some championship rings. I might add with the real coup. So again i just. I'm proud that i was able to be inspired by people like magic people. Dr j. coming up. Dr j. was my biggest role model. And so you know. He was just so incredible on and off the court. Classy guy dress. Well speak well. And i always say that if i wasn't a sociable guy which i turned out to be so they got good there but if i wasn't i was going to convert to being dr j. because i met him In tenth grade at a tuxedo place coop. I talked his ear off for twenty minutes. It was only him. And i in tuxedo place and he answered every nervous question that i could think of and that experience that he gave me is one of the experiences that i enjoy with people. Come up to me thirty year later. Talking about loyola is loyola that just a people person. I just love being able to inspire people but able to share my stories with the game of basketball has done to change my life and blessed my life today. we'll bow. Listen if you talked to dr j. game you ask them why. Fuck you dunk on coop like that to your credit you put it got the hell out the way you listen. Still time with coop cast. We have both kimball in the house. Thank you so much Before we let you out of here no you gotta foundation talk to about it. Yeah forty four for life. Foundation started honor gathers but also by the name. Robert carter about fifteen years ago. He got on a basketball court. I didn't know cpr. And so i started the foundation. Honor those two hang. Robert carter and as a cpr instructor. We donate fibula. We sell defibrillators. Gonna cpr instructor. I also do. My one of my dreams is to be a division one head coach cool but other than the stuff that i'm doing. Today i do business consulting helping individuals and companies have access to private capital and so i've been very blessed to be living my dream on and off the court both thank you man. Thank you thank you. So much are anything. You're welcome pod. Yeah you're you're you're prepared for interview wants. yes yesterday. Questions also had to do my homework. Like data rice on. You know what i wanna thank you guys for thinking of me and like i said much respect. I watched through the years man. What you do what you do. Best and congratulations on what you're doing now anything i can do to help you guys and by the way a coup. I'm a big. Tom golfers so when i get to. La hopefully we can play a few rows together one day. Who may i don't play ben. Okay all right okay. I know byron plays. So i wanna get together byron and i'll get you a james worthy to be placed but a quick little story about the boat eighteen when i was texting him i detected and said this is cool. You know. there's a duane cooper. That went to usc and he goes with coop is this i said man you better championship. He's he no. This is the real cool you say. After the first time you should say. Championship coup lakers demand. Thank you so much. My brother have a wonderful day and make your family man to take care of eighteen rt.

hank david spencer basketball lakers nba Hank philadelphia dobbins dobbins high school george raveling stan morrison la sixers loyola mr bo kimble bo jessop myron paul westhead dobbs tech high school David spencer tom lewis
Hour 2 - 5/11/20

The Paul Finebaum Show

36:33 min | 1 year ago

Hour 2 - 5/11/20

"Is your money not sure what to do with itself right now at ally. They'll help it save for the future with their smart savings tools. Bucket your money for the things that matter most analyze your spending and save automatically all on top of a competitive rate for all things money you deserve an ally visit a L. Y. dot com slash savings for more INFO ally. Do it right ally bank member. Fdic BUT PRIDE PASSION THAN PATTERNS. Really of college. Football lives here. This is the Paul Finebaum. Show our podcast. We welcome you back. the second hour has arrived on a Monday. Hope all is well. Let's continue with more of your phone calls at eight five five two four to seven to eight five. The Athletic Director the University of Kentucky later on Mitch Barnhart Jay Bilas on what Mark Imbert had to say. Oh the other day and his thoughts on a couple of other important issues and Sonny Vaccaro who really started the name image likeness debate. Many many years ago will join us as well here in just a couple of minutes. So let's check in with Roger in California. Hey Roger People how you do it today. We're doing great. Thank you out here in California. Where about fifty four days under locking key in the mid? I haven't watched the show as much as I got other things to do around the house. You're never miss it. I just want to compliment you on. Lived around the country from New Jersey's yours points Pittsburgh Minnesota California and spent time and Rinku campus soon and I've never heard of bitter well-prepared just a nice guy attitude the guy like what was it. Have a beer with and You're right on the money in so many things. You're not fair to the people that that's the first part of my conversation. Do Thank you sure. The second one is bowling raised in Notre Dame fan but Christie to the south particularly the SEC. Over the years and one thing that. I've never heard that often on your show and maybe it's age You don't hear anything when they him talk about the two great Georgia running backs Frankie sink. Which Charlie trip nicer member used to buy this street and Smith? Oh yeah -CATIONS for your cold. Wave back before all. Hey by the way for a young people strange Smith was the only I mean you bought it because it was the only preseason magazine out game town here right and in those years to record there'd be not youth is that the the College all stars but always play the pro stores that would play the pro championship team every year in Chicago. And that's where of course already Davis say that year for a take get seeking quarterback into college team. And that's when you heard about any was put frankie sake which the covering forty one or forty two and. I've always followed the south terrific player as generally trippy said over the years. I followed him. And then you go into North Carolina and core. I continue used to be a big fan going to rally to see Stapley hoops and whatnot. But you don't pull it to give you a little idea in my life is not about me but I just maybe interested but I personally could. It would be at the The sudden death cook pro game between the giants coach and Yankee one of the greatest ever maybe the greatest hushed Robertson. We need sixty six points. You get sick. Go Gordon Visa. Just before I was in the seven game series in Pittsburgh Killed Maserati. Sixty two see. What was the Pittsburgh Fifty six sixty okay? There I go rushing rushing time. Yeah kills children. Yeah she's here which you know. I've just been seen Lou. Gehrig take a lineup. When carry retired July fourth? He stayed on most of the year and he would come out to capture the and bring the lineup out. I remember anyways since she was born in thirty one. Hundred thirty nine right and everybody said we're GonNa Yankee Stadium taking see my favorite players to Maggio then. Besides the clipper so hold on you ride. You're you're a because my parents were at Lou Gehrig Day when he was that was that that same season when he gave the famous speech. Yet your season. I don't want this region I I didn't go. I heard decade. I've heard about that my entire life because My Dad was a yankees fan growing up in. Naturally I became one go. Yeah but you know it's like you said over the years I think your your show comes across so well and just love hearing then put Chili like you say. Assume that her name number one all. I love that. I have a conference every SEC. I like the I love. The South mean people could be your child is. I don't know my mom and dad but Yeah I love it. The people at the best years I did in record A lot of lights on your. I love the sports fans courtesy. Just don't want to lose that. That tremendous southern influence. Great and the football of Chris is next to God near some people. Get Jewish but I just have adopted the SEC. In I still have alerted but first of all you're going to make it far more difficult for me to ever criticize Notre Dame again my producer. Marquee be Notre Dame Fan. And His dad went to school there. So I have to deal with that. So now I'll tone down the notre dame rhetoric and And I can't thank you enough. This has been a fantastic call. I I sincerely hope you'll call again just one quick. Say to it okay. Real Quick Nineteen thirty nine thirty new rocky movie came out played in my hometown paper with New Jersey. My Mother's let me take a day off from school. It was easier goodness and I went over and it went to the kiss here. My dime down. She said I'm the Guy Thirty eight years old navy night when I went up to the counter. I believe ten cents for tickets. She should you're supposed to be in school. I should say distillery I'll close with one story. My mom it was in the mid sixties. I was just starting school. She let me stay home to watch the first game of the world series. We had We had very similar MOMS. I ride or you take care of yourself. You be well my friend and can't wait to talk again. I man is up next. What a fascinating call. It was great. I mean he said something about being locked down fifty four days and it made me think instantly. What if all these people been doing for fifty six days you know what Paul? They've been a lot of them. Have been calling you not not talking about you ask caller but a lot of them have been calling you asking you win. Who what when where how how come why not. I mean they've asked you all kind of you could have learned to play the Blues Song on again. A Brown insensitive. Didn't I know you did? I'm talking about your callers. That have been lost and in their shut up and Miss Sports Sports. You Watch anything they put on. Tv May paypal. If you are that dedicated. Don't ask Paul. What will they do it? What were they show us? Those people will watch anything anything. Rest in peace little Richard. Paul do Richard Influence your life and your taste in music and art L. U. I there's yeah I mean. He did not influence me directly but through about five or six people that would be on the front row of the hall of fame in Cleveland. I would say he did yes absolutely he did. He touched a lot of things. And it's funny that I kind of heard a lot of music prior to the sixties but right there's the sixties he was coming in battles and so forth and and here we are today. You Know Paulus back up and take a breath for men you know. We've kind of been. I been on Jim about an apology. I think we need to steer some of this conversation is towards D. Had she not come in and made that call you put his foot in his mouth? Can off governor heads. Do what may be. The gym is a super human. Being because just as I'm was about to take a shot at Jim I kid you not. His phone went out. We will Sure get an opportunity to rectify that situation. At some point in the near future we will take a break when we come back. We look forward to talking to Sonny Vaccaro listening to the Paul Finebaum show podcast. Most of you don't need an introduction to our next guest. He is Sonny Vaccaro. One of the most influential in the history of intercollegiate athletics Five years ago thirty for thirty entitled Soul Man told the inner workings of his extraordinary career and it is a great pleasure to welcome him back to our program. Sunny great to have you on and certainly hope you're well we are welcome. Pam and I and I'm grateful for you allowing me to spend some time with you Paul. Well well I I always look forward to it in Certainly I mean there's there's so many things to talk about. Let's let's get it out of the way because people are talking about Michael Jordan. He if he played last night which she did on television. But it was twenty years in the rear but I and I don't know if this documentary and I may be censored considering for. Espn hasn't really done much of a fair job of portraying your role and all that but What what have you thought about these last couple of weeks as someone that you really helped introduce to the world at least from the from a sneaker standpoint has been portrayed in such an extraordinary way. I want to say to your audience. Day they take me for two and a half hours about a year or so ago here in Palm Springs paying. I live and we went under the assumption. It was going to be an open conversation. They could ask anything they want. I never put a restriction on any question ever given to me and I asked them to make sure that I go once a serious run. Its course the tape or whatever I said I do know for the audience I spent half is under their questioning I do know for the audience. Okay I can say this. I'm not going to watch it until the last two games next week is over but to say what I've heard and read throughout the country over where they're going. I can only refer to in my lifetime because a man is nuts. Ready great things. Ken Burns saying for the life of whom he can't understand. How documentary can work if it's owned by the subject to documented about. I am disappointed in what I've heard but they have two more days to say whatever they want to say. Then I would be open to talk but I I can say this hurt disappointed because the documentaries and the first time the day and I'll say the people with Nike and you can only go to fuel a night when you start it because he owns the company who I worked for for a good many years a man who was my best man. George Raveling I guess he's my best man forever and he's certainly not through this in my life now but then the person that you know. I like to think I had a life before Michael Jordan. Although I'm sort of the individual that you can portray his like how you do that because there was never any background for anything I ever did Paul and two by the time I got to Jordan. I've done some pretty significant things in the world sports and the first thing. I think other than my the first all-star game ever done was in Pittsburgh and I was twenty four years old and the kids were eighteen. Be Thirteen years before McDonald's then. I introduced Nike. Who has a fledgling company that time to owning college basketball and they can't do that because we basically owned every college team in America in five years and at four them and final four in one year that was never done before and including Ucla your because they were always initatives in Congress? That were so Paul. I'll say this and I'm two minutes into your show and I feel bad but I just feel bad that eventually in the world we live in although it's a very contradictory world and lived in socially religiously however you want to paint it now. I don't think the world of truth has ever been so upside on and went hurts. People all kinds of people that that there's no hurt to me eight years old and I've done okay. My life has been good and I feel comfortable but my point to you is what isn't comfortable for me and I don't WanNa get extreme on your show but I haven't talked to a vast audience year you know what the only thing I can relate to as I grew up what's Nazi Germany. And burning the books I always remember. That wasn't a good situation for the whole world not really understanding and Franken. I don't WanNa get too deep right now but what is happening in the society. We live in because it's become popularized by the president is staged and this is not a political thing. Okay I'm talking of demeaning the press I dealt with the press my whole life by. Don't life the only thing I can understand and pray for whatever the public gets out of the words of that in sern would be truthful right now. I can say to you. It's a disappointment. But the biggest disappointment is going to be fuel night or George. Raveling joy insignificant person in the whole scope because he was never ever around ever ever ever. Is We print point data. Okay if he saw Michael Jordan five times in ten years that I was running. Data's I'm probably over exaggerating. So let's put that to rest and you're probably can dwell on that tonight. Okay fuel nights at multi-billionaire I don't give it. I'm happy for him and I know he's doing good things money now with universities and that's what people should do however gets money if they share it with the rest of the world and save this virus and other things that's good he'll forget forget to send. Us Katie Elders Children Right my point here is show night we knew. What did Michael Jordan? What more do you need in life? He's line is an idolized because he's a significant athlete and two significant goes beyond when you just used the word athlete. 'cause there's significant athletes. Every sport played from badminton. Tomorrow's anything that they q score on Michael was certainly a supreme. You know athlete. What he didn't ever have to do was exaggerate or lie or deceive or hurt people that were in his life. So the hurt you know on a personal level. The can you do to me. I'm eighty years old. What can you do for history? Tell the truth. They'll never do it now? 'cause they're too deep and whenever at the time told. I will present one thing in front of your audience to listen to God willingly if I ever get a chance to speak of it and I've been saying I've been doing it for thousand years. Though the truth will be told me this underlies to scientific Carol Liu and would never be anything in anything I writer say that I can confirm I had a great statement about when I was investigated by the way for one hundred years starting with our taint okay and I said shut down. I'll say on your program and then ask question. I'm sorry about is they. Ask Me all the Connecticut's the Jerry or other coaches with that time would have been involved in and they came to my house in Pittsburgh and they interviewed me. They did all kinds of stuff. Okay and I said I can't talk about Jerry. Arcane people have ideas but I've never witnessed anything that ever happened and I can say this on your program that probably the of me and that's why it's not the strength of the Nike Story. That's for damn sure is. If I didn't see it I wasn't there. I can't verify my own is. I can't comment. I can only tell you what I saw. What I'm hearing and not seeing right now you know is the false pretense of a great athlete. Unbelievable company unbelievable wealthy human being. And someone like I can't. I don't want to do more routing but all they had to do was tell the truth he would still on Mount Rushmore. But what he tried to do and he singled out. This is the truth against everything. This is the truth and singled out. Sign up for Carol. I'm like that kid rural town in Pittsburgh a long time ago Paul. You know I don't know what the hell it is I did. I didn't do but I didn't do anything to hurt somebody intentionally. This hurts so we'll let it play out next week and they will let them defend whatever they think they're telling the truth about but I can bet your dime to a donut. There's not one credence of Evelyn evidence that I had nothing to do when the world knows. I traveled the world with Michael Jordan. I was at every important meeting ever held by Michael Jordan. David Falk hoped David Fox and agent and he did well and I have no personal things David Falk but what happens along the way is sometimes you make something really really important that no one else can call you out on well. David would really really important. And he come up with the term aired you by accident in effect when Rob Strauss. Her asked him. What are we going to name? He said Michael Jordan. Then he said you've got to have Jordan and Rob Strasser said to him. I know this could rob told me. Story Rob was my mentor and well that time. Go back in your history books. Nike shoe called Air. It wasn't a big success air. They made to hear. Maxi your later and Peter Moore who created the first three George who was the designer of the shoe he basically said we're GONNA make the disguised and fly like an airplane and you saw the famous. You know jump man. The only thing I know that Air Jordan came from a mixture of David Fox News last night this client. It could have been air your name and air which was issue of Nike. I've gone a couple of ways born I probably when you're taking me you've got a couple more miss but that's how it all began. That's easy sunny. Don't go anywhere where you'd have to take a break There's more to come as we continue here on Monday. You're listening to the Paul Finebaum. Show podcast off. We walk back. We are going to continue for a few more minutes with our very special guests. Vaccaro Sunny Certainly so much has happened Lately with the in the NFL. Something that you really help get going many many years ago. Just just your thoughts on on where we are. I know you've been an advocate for this for so long What about where are we now? The way it came Come to sense as do somebody athletes. Then the first thing we did was get a delay of game penalty for the ends up they pushed into you know January than it delayed again for a new committee. Paul what we have and people listening are group of people that all they do is push things backwards because a new regime will take over and and profit by the money. They are the biggest employers in in America. We're talking about jobs lost. They employ thousands thousands of young people to work for them. Pay Them and these guys. They should have gone on strike a long time ago. We're we're we're still a point where all they did was make a statement not do facts. What what what else can be done? there's so many conversations about change but the vanguard of that the one thing they could do was just finish up with abandoned said. I. I noticed they ask for antitrust exemption. Well that's what Oban in one till nine year court case and all the other court cases that have come up. Here's been either a settlement or you know they pay athletes again. What has to happen. There are group of well people throughout the country politically involved and not political involved That are asking for them to just get rid of the word amateurism and make an equitable fair. Chance to the the the men and women no bring women into this pay situation now are endorsing because the women athletes are GonNa make money off their images to Paul. There has to come a logical conclusion to this and I think the only way it might happen if you intervention which is not always the greatest thing in the world but these people won't listen to different groups. They'll just delay the game and so you know I'm happy that they made a statement I guess you know that's good but it is good if it doesn't happen for another year or two and then delayed again for those who believe in change and then believe what we're being told from. Indianapolis to what? Why has the under this president and others for that matter so resistant? What are they protecting their own money in their own wealth their own satisfaction of owning the thing. I think the smartest people in College Sports Are The the athletic directors who guidance of way and the the five or six presidents are supposed to be the mediator between the athletes and universities to Paul? It's a it's a one sided thing there. I'd like to say some your program. Because the one thing that sticks out a name region likeness. I honestly believe that everyone in your audience understand what I'm saying name. Here's a likeness were stolen from. The athlete by a piece of paper put into scholarship years ago. That this kiss these kids all signed and years ago. One was thinking about a lot of reimbursement and when they were signing their contract they didn't have signing day on on. Espn and all the other things. He was a contract that you would've thing and the kids signed everything. Mom and dad were as happy as health. He's got a scholarship to whatever university in. That's all they. They put a piece of paper. That said they own your name. You like this and that's the paper we're talking about. They Stolt Paul. There's one thing I do know that no one can deny okay. Not Knowing your name and your image came from your parents they gave it to. Your blood came from your parents if they had two children. One looks like the mother maybe and the other one looks like the father. But there's no question the word. Dna is significant thing in fact DNA is takes us back to the caveman days. Hopefully whatever I don't know but they stole that. The only one that I know that owns ad is God that you believe in who gave us this power as human beings to transfer our genes into an individual. They stowed their name image likeness with no nothing stolen for personal greed. They're talking about an image that they're going to sell or in Indian they're gonNA rent out to a corporate entity and they take in the money. This is something that inherently the thing we own is our name he was just. That's all we own you guys. You ought to listening to your program. there's still a lot. Paul and you're the best. One of the best question here is in the country. What I'm saying to you is this is the most obscene thing. It should never have been brought to the table because y they felt so uncomfortable. They hid the whole paper. And then they say we own you into perpetuating my God however you believe in whatever you believe in afterlife that means they got you and they might have you your casket. I don't know what the hell that means. So that's the problem right there. They felt then and today still exist that they own this athlete forever. You Know Paul. I don't WanNa get into ten thousand six. I get away from things. I hope you have for one more question for your audience. But this is a sacrilege in religion. I do. That's the biggest thing you can have sunny before you go and I know looking into a crystal ball is difficult for all of those but knowing what you know and knowing what the NCW has said what happens next government. I don't think I don't think another lawsuit goes anymore. I don't think you can just keep bringing the kitchen and taking up five six seven years because it won't be there anymore. I've gone through Paul. I'm the only person alive. I think I started from Walter. Byers just they. They investigated me underwater. I mean let's use director for those who don't know right so everyone's through him and you want only one guy. Cedric Dempsey ever came to my camp to see what the hell the campus because the root of all evil one time Paul. The only thinking happened here is got willingly if these people in Congress can't agree on a lot of things and I know that. Why don't they just get together? Get a bipartisan group. Get a separate entity to be the boss of the NGO blamed all they do schedule Games. Incredible conversation and hope. You'll come back sometime soon. I really do. There's too many too many too many subjects that we haven't mind yet. Sunnyvale Karl. Thank you very much for your time. Be well thank you and I appreciate it. I bless you bye bye. Thank you. What a pleasure. What an amazing who got a little bit over the years and he speaks his mind without any filters and we will take a break and get your reaction to all of you and listening to Paul Finebaum show podcast. We're back and appreciate your being here on a pretty dramatic so far. Hope you enjoyed Sonny Vaccaro now if we played that when backwards from what we might get the real code meeting to What the NCW is all about? Let's continue Shannon is up next in Georgia. Hey Shannon Tabei you doing great. Thank you quick question. I've heard emerge statement about all campuses. Aren't open that we can't have college athletics in the fall or something to that effect. Here's my question if he makes that decree and let's say the SEC and the big ten decide to go ahead and play and just do a straight conference schedule. What type of ramifications would they face from NC double leg? Do they have any sort of painful punishment? Ability that that we don't know about Shannon Mark Hammered has no over college football zero What he said the other day was was perfectly fine. He's he's entitled to say whatever He wants and he couched it by saying he had talked to presidents and eighties and conference commissioners. And I'm glad to have. That's what he should be doing for a couple of million dollars a year but he has no authority college. Football is run by the College Football playoff and they dictate the postseason and the commissioners dictate their own schedules now the NCW insurance diction overrules violations over eligibility but they have no jurisdiction whatsoever over the actual playing of the game. So your next question. Then because we know that they've bungled the the eligibility issue on several occasions. I feel like with the eligibility hearing and things of that nature. Will this be the straw that breaks the camel's back and forces school? Compasses like the big ten and see maybe the ACC who? I think we're probably the three largest money. Earning competence to go ahead and break away from the NC Double A. And Their Oversight College football well on one level they have already done this It goes back nearly thirty five years but the NCAA lost a court battle to the University of Oregon. Excuse Me University of Oklahoma in Georgia. And that's when they lost the jurisdiction. Now let me let me make sure this is a little confusing the NCAA runs The other Divisions Division Two Division. Three they all have playoffs one double or whatever they call these things now but you know the college football if if Greg Sankey and baubles in John Wofford and Kevin warn and Larry Scott decide those are the commissioners are the five power five conferences to to have a college football season and started on September fifth. We will have a college football season whether mark. Amer agrees or disagrees. But think unfortunately I heard on the news the other day. The Oregon Governor said no no fans any sport events or sporting events through through September. I think is what she said and obviously California's really behind In terms of opening up. Yeah that's that has created issues and I and I think you'll see a possible change even for the The Alabama opener. Maybe some other games at first weekend if you're involving a California School. Hey thank you very much for the call. Jimmy is up next. Hey Jimmy Ball again. I'd show back in early by your lame now. Oh my goodness I you know I launch out with Tommy gallion the other day and he and d'alene were they handled some cases together. D'alene was a very prominent lawyer in Tuscaloosa. If I remember correctly yeah China's trying of mind. Well he's Tommy Tommy. I had long jetty other day for the first time in a while. He's got. He's working on a book and it will either be a best seller or get him killed unless you're witch it can be because what are you. What are you start putting the truth? Now I've Read I've read. I've read a couple of chapters and The NC Double A. Does NOT WANT? They do not want to read this book to a number of other government officials. Yeah he had a lot big lawsuit against big operation years ago. A friend is a friend of mine. Told him said always does is about off? He didn't believe it back and said you were right. They all off but anyway what I want to tell you this Ronald is is the is real. But it's somewhat and that they falsified the death and they write any type of death just about as Gerona vowers. I took a friend of mine to a urgent care yesterday. And after you got through my friend I asked him what he thought was the top. That mask off. He's and he said devices really. I'm just like I said but he said his doctors and hospitals at some point in time. We're going to get in trouble for Fox find this. It's because all these people are not dying their own about viruses that is on the line. Call Yeah and I don't want to be I'm a talk show host. I don't know anything about medicine But I do but I have read a lot and like you and everyone else in It sometimes it is fairly difficult. in terms of Being accurate especially in crisis situations but I hope they can get to the bottom of that. Jimmy because A lot of people a lot of people have died. But unfortunately and you and I both know this The numbers are part of the political tableau. So we need. We need we need. We need a little more honesty. Hey thank you for the call. Great to have you on. And let's talk to Dan in Jacksonville. Exactly then from Jacksonville Ben. I'm sorry Benza. Great Name. Thank you for calling. Yeah How's it going man? I wanted to talk about a ten TS. Twenty twenty one recruiting and I want to talk about what that depth chart is going to like as the other schools. Kinda shook right now and Kind of wondering graphic but he got together but We're we're we're getting really worried or well. Let me let me make it clear. We couldn't put one up anyway because these are commits and you know and I know a national letter of Pants But I do believe I. I believe very strongly that This class is going to continue to get better because Tennessee is as hotter program right now in the country as there is and I don't think I've been able to say that for a long time. What do you think about Twenty twenty if we do play football how I feel pretty good about it. I think Tennessee. Has Oklahoma Florida Alabama? Georgia I think those are always the games that will cause them the most trouble I think they they're going to need to win at least one of those To have it what I would consider to be a really good season and and quite frankly I think that Florida Game. Losing is is is in play at kneeland. Georgia's a win as well. Well it may be if Tennessee can be Florida than we but right now. It's hard for me to consider having seen these guys It's hard to look at the is right now between Georgia and Tennessee and and make an argument without Tennessee can do this year. Yeah I would agree That was certainly an outlier but Georgia. Georgia was very good at times. They were also extremely vulnerable at times and we saw it against against Carolina am had a shot at them. Auburn certainly was in a position. Hey thanks for the call up against the break Mitch Barnhart the Athletic Director at the University of Kentucky will join us in a couple of minutes as well as Jay Bilas.

Paul Finebaum Pittsburgh Michael Jordan football Sonny Vaccaro Georgia SEC George Raveling Nike California president New Jersey North Carolina Notre Dame Fan Roger People University of Kentucky Espn Fdic Jimmy Ball Jim
The Sedano Show (HR 1): PJ Carlesimo shares a Barkley poker story

Afternoons with Marcellus & Kelvin

49:22 min | 1 year ago

The Sedano Show (HR 1): PJ Carlesimo shares a Barkley poker story

"What's up Sodano with you here on? Espn presented by Progressive Insurance. All our guests appear via the Shell Pennzoil performance. Line busy guest list for you today at ten fifteen. Pj CARLESIMO will stop by ESPN NBA analyst longtime coach coach in the final four in college. And obviously as I mentioned NBA coach for many years and was part of Chuck Daly Staff on the Dream Team. So we're going to talk to about the Jordan era. Coaching Against Jordan coaching with Jordan. Right coaching Jordan. On that Dream Team he was part of that. Chuck Daly Original Dream Team Staff and then at ten forty Michael Cooper will stop by. We'll do a little story time with Coop and eleven thirty Charles Barkley. So we've got an action packed show for you today. And of course it's brought to you by straight talk wireless where they don't play any games man. Get The unlimited plan with twenty five gigs of high speed data and two G. for forty five bucks a month. Half the cost of big carriers no contracts compromise savings may vary see terms and conditions at straighttalk dot com. So I found myself and I'm sure a lot of you felt the same way as I watched the last Dan's yesterday with a bit of mixed emotions it was cool to see Kobe at the beginning of it and they did it in honor of Kobe Bryant at the beginning and just the interaction between him and Jordan as a young player but just watching Kobe on camera and Greg. I'M GONNA come right to you today. Watching Kobe on camera I would imagine had just a bunch of feelings and emotions running through because it did for me and you grew up a lifelong laker fan so I grew up in La. Like I would imagine. I'm just someone who loves basketball and appreciated him for who he is and and really understands what he meant to the city specifically after he passed away it was just incredible the outpouring it was hard to to not really notice it when you were around especially where we work but for you. I would imagine if it was weird and tough for me and also kind of cool all wrapped into one I would imagine for you was a little odd to it was tough. It was a lot harder than I knew. It was going to be hard for me but then when it actually started happening I was like man. This is because you saw young. Kobe like going up against Jordan in the All Star game and then you saw old Kobe or not even old. Just Colby that you know him as now kind of and so you've got y this it was just hard to see him like that in both ways. It was just tough. I didn't. It was hard for those few minutes that he was on. Yeah it was pretty awesome though what he was saying. They're talking about how what Michael Meant to him talking about how there's no five championships here as in La. If it wasn't for the way basically Michael took him under his wing stuff was really cool. No champ no five without him and then I really liked when they were in the locker room and Jordan was was calling him that little Laker boy and then and grant hill on the bench. Like I'm not getting his way I'm not GonNa let him put me on a poster. That stuff was all that stuff was pretty cool to see. Yeah I mean it was pretty wild. You know what I'm saying like I just some of things he talked about right like like the quotes about where it was a rough couple years for me coming into the League because at the time the League was so much older I was a kid that shot a bunch of airballs and that at that point Michael provided a lot of guidance for me and it is incredible because in this day and age and we talked about this a little bit during the memorial. Which is you know. We were kind of surprised right by their relationship. And I think that knowing now from both sides because now we've now heard it from both sides what that relationship was like and how Michael Guided Him. I almost feel like it was strange that we didn't know beforehand right that that never really got out that. Kobe never really talked about and clearly. Michael didn't talk about it. And just how important those two were to each other yeah. It was interesting that they would not let that be known. I mean you would think that they wanted to keep it secret. For whatever reason I just really liked it he was talking. Cody was sitting there talking about how how much he meant to him was that he would ask him during an all star game like how. He does his turnaround jumper the correct way so he can work on that in one thousand nine hundred it was. It's pretty intense. How much how close they actually work. Yeah and Kobe talked about that. Specific All Star game says I grew up watching Michael on TV. And I got a chance to go face to face with him. You get that chance to really see and touch and feel the strength speed and quickness it was. It was fun to be out there. I mean it just was an incredible thing to watch. You know what I'm saying like and as you mentioned. He said he was like my big brother. I don't get the five championships here without him because he guided me so much and gave me so much great advice. It is awesome to see that. And didn't you get the sense that later in Kobe's career? He kind of did some of that to where he was he he did talk. It was tough for him at first because it was so much younger than everyone else but as he got older he kind of really embrace being one of the elder statesman of the league. Yeah he really did. He was over and over again. He would have you know he would work out with Jaanus. After we're at during the during the off season he would work out with whoever wanted him. Kyle Kuzma somebody that worked out. So he really actually put himself out there to be with people and it really could have switched. I mean Jordan didn't actually do that for him he may never have done it for anybody else. Because Look Jordan. Didn't do it for me. I gotTa do it all on my own. You guys got to do it on your own. And he didn't do that he so it's great that actually see. Yeah and I think a lot of us in any walk of life can relate to that in some way shape or form. You don't have to be a professional basketball player. There's someone in your industry. Whatever it is you do write whatever you do for a living. Whatever you do as a hobby that you know in your life or that you were able to cross paths with in your life that was able to impart wisdom to you because they went through. Whatever you're going through. I and I think that all those things right because you know neither Guy Jordan or Kobe had an easy go of any of it right whether it was on the floor off the floor like there were a lot of things that happened in their lives that they had to manage and they were able to get out of the other side of it right regardless of whether it was on or off the court and I think that in life we've all I would hope that most of us at least have that person in our life whether it's a family member a friend a neighbor a cousin uncle a grandmother. You know a friend of a fan of the family someone or someone at work that you've come across or growing up playing sports or at school like someone that has been able to impart wisdom. I think everybody's got someone like that and I think that it's really relatable. It's honestly what I think makes Kobe. Even more fascinating than Jordan is that we talked about this at the time when he passed about how the Mamba Mentality is not just a thing for Kobe and athletes. They get clearly is but I feel like here in. La People embrace that as kind of their own mantra kind of attacking the day an attacking their own lives in a similar way. The Mama mentality is a real thing that most people here in La try and live by it to some sort of way one way or another. And I know I have and you know like I'm sure you you're talking a lot about how Having the mentor. I'm sure you've been in this business for. I don't know how long Longtime Years Twenty one twenty years now more than twenty years. But I'm sure when you were first coming up there was somebody that you got some wisdom from that. You still may be still talk through today. I mean I know that I did when I first got into the business. I've eighteen years old started early. And I got wisdom right off the bat from people and led me to where I am today. It's everybody needs that. Yes for sure. Laura how did you feel when you saw Kobe on the screen was it was something that was emotional? One hundred percent. Mike cars name is Kobe so I broke down one saw him. It was it was a rap and then I had I was kinda drinking. So that's not a good. I lost my mom's like what happened and she's like Oh Kobe's on the screen time. Yeah Yeah that's tough I get it. I totally get and I would imagine. A lot of people felt that way. I'd be curious to hear from the audience at Eight. Seven seven seven ten. Espn eight seven seven. Seven ten three seven seven six and kind of get their thoughts on what it was like for them watching Kobe on that screen. You Know I. It's only been a few months and I think just dealing with all of that certainly had had to be emotional for everyone so I'd love to hear from you and we can just kind of share together here. In the interim Michael Wilbon was on Sportscenter last night with Scott Van Pelt and shared a story about talking to Kobe specifically about Michael. Let's hear Michael Wilbon. Kobe Call Tim all the time. Each one of those guys. They were worried that people outside looking in take it the wrong way just going after each other a little bit. I remember a night when I was waiting outside. The laker locker room and Kobe had some great game. We had like forty five and nine rebounds and whatever and as he walked in the Locker Room. I got an elbow and Kobe. What would you have done tonight? And he would laugh and I said well. Let me write about this. You know nobody. Nobody's going to understand it and it was such joy that this was going to give back to Michael and that relationship was closer than anybody understood until at the memorial when Michael had the reaction he did and I'm told the story about Kobe. Being a nuisance to appoint as a little brother there was such fineness on a daily basis. There four years. You know what's cool about? That story is that he told that story here a month ago that that was the story when I asked Michael about their relationship that he told on this particular story so that I thought it'd be cool to Kinda resurface here. Because he's right like he. Kobe was still competitive with Michael. Even though Michael wasn't even playing at that time which is pretty awesome when you think about yeah I mean. He had huge respect for Michael Jordan and it was. It was really cool. Then know that he. He wanted that sixth rings so he could tie Michael or even get to seven at some point. Everything was always to be and he talked about it a ton about how without Jordan. There's no me and I learned so much from everything that you see on the floor. That's Jordan that's through Jordan. Yeah for sure now. The Great Jackie macmullan was also on with Michael Wilbon and Scott Van Pelt on sportscenter and talk about the relationship between Jordan and a young Kobe. Bryant let's Jackie Real Quick. So he was going to try to coby and try to beat him but afterwards what does he say? Hey kid call me anytime and Kobe did. In fact during the lockout shortened season the ninety eight ninety nine season when they were playing he called and spent an hour on the phone talking to George. About how the body up against bigger defenders a bigger stronger guards. He was having trouble with that. And that's started almost two decade long correspondence because all Kobe wanted to be was Michael and Michael didn't mind. He saw a lot of himself in coping. Yeah I could totally see that if the listen. It's like we were just talking about. Somebody opens the door for you. You're going right in especially if it's someone that you looked up to like. You're doing that a million times over absolutely excellent dropping greg. Let's say you're the best in the business I mean for the love of God tell you got no that was. I was doing multiple things at go ahead. Tell us what you were doing. I want the audience. What you're doing. Go ahead okay if you want to know everything that was going on. I'm listening but I'm also trying to do writing the rundown in the way that is supposed to be written now because it has to be rigged separate differently than it was before Talking to Amanda about idea that we have the for for the station and listening. I mean you literally just said you paused for like three seconds and then it absolutely. That's all you gave me there. I was hoping you were just GonNa keep going. Oh for the love of God anyway. Real quick one last thing. We'll get. We'll get to more on Kobe and Michael's relationship but episode five was by far. My favorite was my favorite and the other thing was and this is what I want to talk to. Pj Carlesimo about in the next couple of minutes because I always love just talking to PJ anyway. Because he's got some of the best stories because been around for so long that the Dream Team what they didn't show in that movie yesterday which they showed in the Dream Team documentary which is a separate documentary. Was THE DREAM. Team played a game before that infamous game. That magic was talking about yesterday in the in the Jordan dock and it was a game against the college kids where the college kids beat them. Bobby Hurley and those guys and Chris Webber came in and beat them because the guys were out there partying and Monte Carlo and they weren't taking the game all that serious and all of a sudden Chuck Daly was calling the game tight on purpose to give the kids a little bit of an edge and they ended up beating them and beating them And it Kinda grab their attention so there's just a lot of those stories that weren't even in the documentary that we could talk about because the Dream Team is really what made basketball explode right. Larry and Michael put the game on the map because we were talking about the finals. Being on tape delay would come on after the local news. Back Larry and magic and then Michael took it to a different stratosphere. Obviously it became more global by the Dream Team. They took beyond two different the the galaxy basically they covered the gamut. There was no inch of the world. Were those guys weren't known particularly Michael. Because of the way the Dream Team represented basketball at those Olympics. So there's gotta be a million stories to talk about obviously. Pj coached against Michael. Too and that that era so we'll talk to our friend. Pj CARLESIMO ESPN NBA analysts. Calls Games with me and the crew on ESPN television and ESPN radio. We'll talk to him in just a second. Pj CARLESIMO coming up in four minutes. Michael Cooper at ten forty Charles Barkley at eleven thirty. Sodano seven ten pm here on seven ten. Espn presented by Progressive Insurance. Progressives homequote explorer. Changing the way you buy home insurance now you can get an online quote. Get a custom quotes. They've both time and money. Learn more at progresive DOT com. Pj CARLESIMO will join us here in just a second Charles Barkley at eleven thirty Michael Cooper in between ten forties. We got a busy show for you today. A lot of guests. Some great guests will talk Dream Team and facing Jordan with. Pj In a second. He'll give us the straight talk. Brought to you by straight talk wireless everything for less and of course no contract. No compromise the aforementioned. Pj CARLESIMO friend of the program joining us here. I want to talk Jordan with him. Talk Dream Team with him and just kind of catch up. Pj how you feel a man. Everybody good excellent George. Things have Quieted a little bit up here in Seattle we. Kinda started a week ahead. Everybody in We're used to it whether that's good or bad. I don't know but it's things are good families. Good appreciate your family's well all good here brother. Good to hear from you to obviously so. Pj obviously the entire world is focused in on this Jordan documentary. The last dads and look you know plenty about this you you played against those excuse me you coached against those teams with the Blazers and you know when you were with the warriors. What was it like competing against that group was no fun? The problem Somebody made the point last night. I think it was Steve. Kerr I'm not sure Made the point they were under kind of like the Lakers this year and hopefully When they get back to it Underrated defensively You know everybody talks about the Lakers. I we've played all year and I think the probably the thing that Franken team have done the best They're so good defensively. Which a lot of people I think don't appreciate The Bulls I mean start with they had arguably the two best perimeter defenders in the League and Scotty Pippin and Michael And you know. Fill an excellent defensive coach. They really really defended well tied to run offense against them and that kind of got them out and run and if so many clips. You're watching even in these first. Six segments are fast-break clips. Michael and Scott. He like you know going down. Open Floor Dunkin Twenty Cuco Chetta Beautiful. Like kind of left behind the back. Pass the other day It was hard to run offense against him particularly. Because you couldn't enter the ball in wing when those two guys Scotty was always engaged. Our say Michael Picton Joe's but like if you had a really good player Michael would just try and take him out of the game And it was unbelievable so like before you even could worry about defending the triangle offense. I mean they were really good half-court execution team but the biggest problem was the transition defense. That'd be running down your throat. All the time because they force turnovers and they were so good in transition. If somehow you know you got that or you scored and made him take the ball out of bounds. There half court execution was excellent because the drive. They ran the triangle. Very very well and team was. You know well-constructed To give Jane you know kind of balanced it a little bit. Jerry crosses taken so many hits in his thing but he did have a lot to do with their success But then you know that was kind of the second part of the defensive challenge and the worst part was it got down to five or six seconds you know everybody in the League when clocks running down yellow rat or there's some code usually read from the bench and you normally do is put the ball in the best guy's hands and get out of his way. We'll guess what that was the hardest thing that defense I mean you know you're always trying to say you teams on defense in the NBA. Saying hey we gotta defend for twenty four seconds guys. It's not that hard. You know let. Let's play it was almost a double edged sword if you did a good job if you happen to. They didn't score in transition. You did a good job. Defending the triangle. Well guess what it's wrote a ball of Michael and you were remember the I think it was the first segment. Sydney Moncrieff Michael. Talking about his third game interleague against the the Bulls. Excuse me against the box. Microwave is one of the best defenders in the League and he talked about. When you went Adam late in the clock he would split a trap or get to the RIM or split into the middle and then kick kick it out and would get a shot so it was almost like a threefold defensive challenge take about fast-break defending trying and then when the clocks on your back they give the ball the best player in the world and try and defend him. And he's unselfish. I'm on top of being the best player he's unselfish so if you double them or if you did get him in kind of a little bit of a bind it find the open guy so no it was. It was not fun at all Playing against it wasn't an accident when you win It's hard to do but I always felt that as great as they were offensively and certainly they were. And you've got you know Steve and packs and guys like that when they gotta open shots forget about it they were really really good defensively and that was a problem. I mean you couldn't you couldn't run offense against them and you knew you had to score a lot of points to begin with so good offensively so They really were a complete team and they were extremely well coached. Pj CARLESIMO joining us here. Of course and be longtime NBA coach. Great College coach took Seton Hall to the final four and our colleague here at ESPN so PJ. Let's talk about the Dream Team because there was clearly the match ups there. We lost him I. We will try to get him back. Hopefully it goes back so Laura let me know. And he's back in the interim i WanNa talk to him about because Greg. You said you didn't know about that. College Game No. I had no idea that that accident happened when you mentioned what what is why wasn't in the duck so in the original. Dream Team Documentary. Pj thoughts on that when we can get him back on the phone. They lost to a team with Bobby Hurley and Chris Webber and a bunch of the best college players and that wasn't in the documentary yesterday but it wasn't the Dream Team Documentary and I feel like that's what really grabbed their attention whereas look I think in this documentary that we're just focusing on the guys that were playing in the NBA. So I think that that was just kind of the deal but but that to me is an untold story. That needed to probably should have been told. Maybe Michael didn't want to give those guys any love but it felt like that was something that I wanted to discuss so. Pj's back PJ. I wasn't ask you about the Dream Team. So they talked about the matchup between magic and Michael. Kind of go at it that one time. I want to get to that in a second but the one thing they left out of this documentary that was in the Dream Team Documentary and you were on the dream. Team staff was when the college kids came in and beat the NBA guys. What was that scenario like? What's funny my cane? I like Mike Mike. Probably the dinosaurs might k. And Jim Boeheim or two of my closest friends and Mike and I like to disagree and that that's something that we felt that Chuck Daly Plan the whole thing and and we disagreed. I agree with him Let's set it up. We were we were practising in San Diego actually La Hoya. We stayed in hotel. It sits right Torrey Pines play practices at UCSD That was the first time team came together and chuck had a meeting. The first night talked about what expectations were and and I can honestly say George. You know we've had other teams other. Usa Basketball teams it. Didn't you know I don't say mail it in? But they weren't always there every time and they they knew good they were and they didn't Have the attention to detail and sometimes it BITs You know we lost some Competitions along the way that team with the exception of maybe that one practice in La Hoya They brought it every night it was it was a good time. People forget it was a good time. We had lost an eighty eight. We didn't win the gold medal in Seoul it was the first time the NBA played represented NBA players were allowed to represent. You had a lot of guys who had never been part of the Olympic experience in really wanted it and tragedy but that practices that you're talking about the first time we scrimmage. There was a now they call it a select team and it's usually the best young players in the NBA calm and play on select team so that the you know the national team Olympic Team Mike. Pops team will have next summer when they practice. They'll have they'll bring in ten or twelve of the best young players in the league. Guys that are not on the big team And that Kinda gets them Jerry. Colangelo uses the term gets them in the pipeline. Well in those days it was a college team. It was Bobby Hurley. Penny Hardaway Chris. Webber Grant Hill. I'm forgetting guys. I mean most of them went on to be NBA all stars. If it was a really good team coach by George Raveling and Roy Williams. And when we would scrimmage at the end the practice like we'd have our drills and everything and we put offensive or defense in Chuck would and then at the end. We'd bring the College Guys. In and we'd scrimmage against them so that's what we scrimmaged against for all the practices in San Diego and I think it was if it wasn't for I think it was the first one we're scrimmaging into college. Guys are amped out of their minds like really playing hard. I didn't win You know they're up a couple of whatever it is late in the thing and you know they're kind of going in our guys. Maybe did you know rather I don't WANNA say cooled it. But they were trying to win but it wasn't the same but more importantly and this is where. Mike and I sometimes disagree. Chuck didn't like take time out and put like Michael put. I don't know who the best five would be. And this was the first day but chuck didn't play it like it was a you know an NBA game and it really mattered. Who He kind of. Let it play out the guys that were on the he let them play and even if they were getting out play by the college guys in College. Guys one scrimmage And it was an interesting message in chuck just kind of quietly after it was over. I don't think he ever referenced. The thing that I always remembered was the was the miracle on ice like as much as good as that team was always kind had. Hey you still got to go out there and play and that was maybe the only time the entire year. Excuse me entire summer. Which accent guys you know. It's not enough to just show up. We gotta come to play and then I think the next day when we scrimmaged the college guys it was like Shutout for a while. It might have been like twenty two or something like that and you know. Lesson learned message taken and they dominated him The rest of the week but it was Clearly we did lose the scrimmage. I think it was the first one and chuck I think was complicit in the losing but I don't think he knew thought before because I don't know whether he would imagine they were good enough to beat us but clearly as it evolved in college guys were like going crazy really playing well and they were all siping and it's hard to go back in time. 'cause you say these names and he said well. These guys are great players. They were young kids. I mean if you watch that scrimmage. Now that's what they were. They were young kids and it was like it was unbelievable for them to be even on the floor with some of our players so they were like just really jacked playing really well and Chuck clearly let it evolved away did and and I think it was a great teaching point and it. Was you know Kinda Typical Chuck Daly? He was At times unconventional. But he knew how to motivate players. He knew how to handle great players. Like not a Lotta people can coach That level of player. I mean everybody's still team was going to win anyhow. We probably were. I mean. That team was so talented but I don't know that there's too. Many guys would have done as good a job as chuck. Daly did with that roster. Pj Carlesimo with this year longtime NBA coach. And of course colleague here at ESPN was part of that Dream Team Staff. Yeah look I mean. He clearly caught their attention by letting that happen is pretty awesome and it was awesome for those young guys get one against them but my understanding is the next time they play. Jordan and those guys kick their ass beyond beyond that. It was a massacre. It was guys just so you know. Here's the deal Boom and just you know literally with what we talked about. Before about The Bulls defense. They couldn't get the ball inbounds. They couldn't get it up to court. You know the other thing. That was reminiscent of Georgie Woods. First Time we played Croatia over in Barcelona and Michael and Scotty were frothing at the mouth to Deny Toni. Kukoc ball inlet. Tony Catch it. They didn't let him bounce it. They didn't let him get off a good shot and I think he had four points the first time we played it now to his credit second time we played them in the gold medal game. Tony played well get sixteen or seventeen points. And he's you know but he had no idea what was going to happen that first time and these guys were again. It was all related to Jerry. Krause but I mean they were and they they got the other guys riled up. They were like going. Hey don't let him score. I mean it was like unbelievable even before the game started. But you had that same kind of intensity In the second time we scrimmaged The college players and I think order was restored. Let's put it that way From the second scrimmage on PJ four magic considering he hadn't played in a little over a year whatever it was at that particular time. What was it like for him to just kind of I guess. Reassert himself in that basketball world. How did you observe that he loved it and Magic was a player that I didn't know it was funny like the dynamics on the team. I knew some of the guys very well. You had a couple big east players. You had guys that. Were playing in college. When I was in coaching in college. I was a college coach at that time and played against guys. I knew well from the Nike Experience. Because we'd go onto Nike coaches trip and Someone's elite players would would go with. This child always run with this David. Michael you know we go on a trip and we'd go off and play poker and You know have a good time for four five days Some of them. I didn't know at all. I didn't know Birdie very well. He didn't know Urban didn't know Karl in John got to come alone. John Stockton got to know them. Magic was like some other guys and again people forget it when they look back because they used to what we have now the best players Olympic team. You know every four years sometimes guys repeat you know. You had Lebron K. D. and guys like that playing from one or two Olympics or World Cups. It wasn't like that in those days you got one chance to play normally and Mike. Oh and Patrick and Chris. Mullin played in eighty four for body night in Los Angeles In the eighty four Olympics in David had played in eighty eight in Seoul when we didn't win but the other guys hadn't had the opportunity and the story went that I don't know if it was true. One of eighty eight trials. I was involved as a floor. Coach in Colorado Springs before they pick the team but they said in eighty four John Stockton and Charles Barkley. We're like among the last cut so they didn't get a chance to play. And then you guys like magic and bird that Had never had the Olympic experience and it was really meaningful to them so you had magic back playing which was special playing on Dream Team with these other great great players and and you know having basketball taken away from them for a while it was really meaningful to come back but he was like the elder stay he and Birdie where the elder statesman and Michael clearly deferred to them When chuck talking about naming a captain I think Michael Along with Chuck said. Hey these two guys should be the captain magic. Enjoy the experience tremendously. But it's hard to you kind of get an insight into it now DC. All the hubbub about is a and not being selected is a big deal for these guys to be on a US Olympic team and competing Olympics and there was only four guys that had had that experience and these other great players even though they were MVP's and NBA champions had never been in Olympic. So it was. It was a really special experience so magic enjoyed it on a lot of different levels. The friendship I think it was the first two shows you kind of had him talking about getting to know Michael. 'cause you know you know with George as much as these guys know each other you know play if they're in the same conference four times a year twice a year if they're in the some of them really don't know each other And when you spend you know a good part of I don't know what I think I think. It was about seven weeks together and particularly in monte-carlo in Barcelona had two families involved. You guys wives and children girlfriends with them. They really get to know each other. Well so magic really was looking forward to that and really treasured that and It it was funny. I that I show you got Birdie say and it wasn't Michael Jordan. He played in that series in Boston which Boston won. But it was. God came down and drag it. Does I would fit. And then you had urban saying what was no question. Who the best player in the League was it was Michael Jordan Larry Bird and Ervin Johnson. Saying he's the best player in the world and saying you know he plays on another level. I mean it was. It was spectacular and I think he enjoyed it so much Urban and and so many different levels and it was really good to see the way Michael deferred. If you will in terms of you know that those are the guys Larry in You know an urban are the you know the the captains are the guys who speak up but there was still no question. Who's the best player? Wasn't that kind of came out in those scrimmages. We've talked about in In Monte Carlo when when teams played against each other because we had no college is to go against their right. It's funny because we scrimmaged against the college guys in San Diego in Portland which everybody forgets to qualify. It was a different qualification process. In those days we had one in eighty eight which used to get you automatically to the next one. We hadn't won the gold medal in eighty eight so we had to qualify so in Portland. We never practiced. We had like six Games in eight days so all we had with games and shoot arounds so we never practiced so it wasn't until we got to Monte Carlo and we had a week of practice to get ready for Barcelona. Guess what. Guess when we scrimmage guess WHO's GonNa Scrimmage it's you know off five or five guys in blue against our five guys in white. That was the first time they had really gone against each other. And that was the best basketball and that was Kinda when Michael. Yeah no question. He deferred to those guys and everything like that. But blind up. Let's keep score and see It came right away. You knew. Hey this guy is the best player and he was letting every even as other. You know unbelievable talents letting them know. Hey I'm I'm the I'm the best one. Kevin love had a good quote last night. I don't know what it was. You know attuned. I am to social media. I don't know whatever the hell. It was one of those things but it was like the Alpha of all. Alpha's was Michael or something like that. It was kind of an interesting quote but it's true When it came time to play and keep score and play against each other it was always Michael's team against Magic's because John Stockton was dinged up couldn't go every day. We really only had two point guards on the team. John Stockton and urban and the third one was was MJ. So when we scrimmaged every day was Michael's team against Magic steam the match ups Patrick Versus David Karl Malone versus Charles. I mean allowing players were pip and Clyde Drexler and Chris Mullin Joe Right. Every match up was incredible. Pj I got a minute here. Give me the best card game story you got from that trip. Charles was talking about it last night and it was kind of funny On Sap he asked. Charles about when we used to play in Nike trip Charles we're trying by the POT. You chose had a bunch of coaches and we were doing okay but nobody was making the money that he was playing and Charles is is not bad. It's not a it's a terrible poker player but we know once once a game he would like put like was table stakes. You put it wherever you want it. Say Five thousand dollars. Try and buy the pot. He'd play Michael tried to do that with those guys all the time. 'cause they played literally every day. But the thing I learned in As a college coach which I didn't appreciate and saw many many times during my MBA years In the NBA when they play even on the plane. The money's in their hand it's cash in the hand. There's no chips there's no ham. Good for you WANNA make a bid. You put the cash on the table The cash they report nine to table had a lot more zeros and a lot more. It was unbelievable like when they were raised but I mean it was in their hand to be standing out in the money would be in their left hand and that was that was how the game was played that was pretty much the rule in the NBA. That's funny thing is chips or I'm good for it. Like put it in It was the green went on the table. Unfortunately I wasn't a part of those games. Well you know what Charles is coming on at eleven thirty in about an hour and I'm GonNa tell. Why did you try to steal all the coaches money? Charlestown bullied them coaches trip. He did the same thing that he accused. Michael Doing. On the on the Olympic I will bring that up on the Nike coaches drip. I'll bring that up to a PJ. You're the best. Thanks for joining us. Man Stay Safe. Stay Healthy George. Great Pete Wentz you take brother there. He is b.j Carlos Komo joining. We're GONNA ask Charles about that in an hour real quick Michael Cooper's coming up in four minutes so stick around for that. We'll talk to coupe about his days with magic and playing against those bulls teams in the finals. Here on seven ten. Espn presented by Progressive Insurance. All our guests appear via the Shell Pennzoil performance line in this segment brought to us by our friends as well at my computer career training for a better life. If you miss any one of our interviews like we just had with. Pj Carlesimo or with Michael Cooper. Who's coming up if you have to run for some reason or Charles Barkley. Maybe you're not going to be around eleven thirty. You can check out our interview on demand section on the. Sodano show podcast on the ESPN APP. Spotify apple podcasts or Google podcasts. Wherever you find your podcast is brought to you by capital one. Why SETTLE FOR AVERAGE WITH CAPITAL ONE? You can open a savings account with the rate five times higher than the national average. Welcome to banking reimagined. What's in your Wallet Capitol? Na member FDIC. I see so Michael Cooper joins us here now. Of course LAKER GREAT. Joining us here. Coupe is everyone. Okay healthy safe and sound willing. Good this way and how you doing George. Thank you for having me on absolutely we are good. We're glad to have you on. We were happy that you took the time to hang out with us and glad that everyone is healthy safe and sound with you so let me ask you this as you've been kind of observing everyone else right appointment. Viewing Michael Jordan Bulls documentary. What was it like for you and the Lakers kind of when you were facing him on the come up even before you guys face them in the finals you can you saying that like we were scared him. No we weren't scared Jordan. I think we were the team owner. I'm not saying that. Not at all. Not at all back. Buckle Jordan has the player but you gotta remember as we were going through those eighties and we were dealing with the Celtics and Pistons and the seventy sixers Jordan was building clean slowly as well as defining himself as a great player and once all those teams exhausted to fight and and got it out of us and then the ninety km. That's when he took off at their guilt. Your team around but you know. That's fantastic ball club. They had I think it was something a learning lesson that they took from from us in the Celtics and the other players take more than one player to win a championship. So they had to build that by Dennis Rodman and and and and the people that they eventually got To help build that Pink to where it is that dynasty type thing that you're seeing now it is interesting though that for the most part Whether it was him or the Pistons or your battles with the Celtics that you had to go through somebody right like somebody was always going to be in your way and you had to overcome that like even for you guys. Yes I mean magic one right away right as a rookie playing center. But you guys. It took a while to get Boston right. And that was a big deal to you guys to be able to get one of those wins against Boston. Pro for sure are and then. I'm Los Angeles through Los Angeles Person. I've watched over the years. How the Lakers was Jerry Western? Nelson could never get over that Hump but you know what before we got to Boston? We had to go through. You GotTa Remember in seventy nine. The late Great Benetton. Exactly the Jack Sick that that Seattle Supersonics thing that was a tough team and get open to you. Know really hard gang seven game series so that we can but you know eventually got replayed the seventy sixers. The first time was able to beat them and at that time. We really know we were doing. We were just trying to define ourselves as what type of team we were. GonNa be and it turned out to be show time but there was a way that showtime had to be played and we had to play at a fast break style. And that's what the choreograph of all that so. Yeah by the time we got to the beaten the seventy sixers and eventually the Boston Celtics. We have to do our work out west and it was a lotta great teams. Had We had to go through Michael Cooper joining us year Coop Hunt Showtime evolve for the young folks out there listening and need a little education on the showtime Lakers. Clearly pat took over but it was. It was because of magic I would imagine just the ability that you guys had yourself and all these different players on the wing to get up and down but how did that evolve into the way you guys played well first of all you know and then the spoke about magic. Were very instrumental in that. But you gotta go back to the head of it and that was the late great. Dr Bus our owner. He wanted to bring an entertaining type of bank. Los Angeles and with the Los Angeles Lakers and and the Laker girl. He wanted to start to you know they entertain us but we go to the movies then attain us when we go to musicals and things like that so he wanted Opportunity to entertain them that they can come and sit down to watch and relaxing and being attained so Dr Buses Vision for the Lakers was first significant. Steppingstone of showtime. And then before that happens you gotTa Jerry. West was the only thing I mean the head coach of the team. When I got with the Lakers and seventy seventy nine and then he took his rifle seeks and went into beat a GM GM had to pick the right players. And Obviously Jerry and Dr Bus Picking Back Jonathan so now you bring it from the The stands from the the building because it stands a general manager. Now you take it to the court and the Wright preacher tend to be put together. They're obviously magic. Was a perfect fit because you already had Kareem Myself. You had a norm. Nixon Damore will slow speakers at it so now Jerry West brings in a Bob Makhadov. He brings in and get the Byron Scott. He brings in James Worthy so the pieces were being put together to develop showtime what was so time so time with an entertaining style of basketball back east. She has a what they call the bat. The Blue Bruce Bruised battered and all that Work at the type of basketball that the self esteem blue-collar where they just play and they kinda slowly wore you down while we wanted to run you down that way so magic at the end was orchestrating that I have the flamboyancy and the salad plate and if he has green has a book and then Myself Byron Scott Ramp issue has a lot of expertise that went on to making showtime and once we got it into gear man we. We'd never let up. And we stayed on top of people. Yeah there's no question about that Michael Cooper joining us here before I get to the Bulls the team faced in the finals in the ninety one season. Let's finish off the Celtics. Just how would you best describe the hatred that there was between you and that group when you guys were facing off in all those finals for me it goes like I said way back to the sickly being born here and watching how. He's always beat them getting know that I would be an integral part in that old dynamic of Boston. Celtic Laker basketball and have an opportunity to play from my hometown. Which is a rarity for anybody and so we finally get to talk to again that that that that brewing or that animosity or that the rivalry we have right there. You remember goes back to college. When Larry Bird with at Indiana State Masiello Michigan State so it started their lead right over to the NBA was great. It was fantastic. The way the backup ball. God let this happen. Where magic on the West Coast and Larry's on the east and now you have and the fun part about that. Is You have to realize that. That rivalry never would have been fun. Only like you know you. Keep it on the Wesley. That's something has developed through the course of the season and you finally get the play the last and most significant and important basketball games. We'll see who's going to be a champion against those two players against our team so you know it took them hard works You Know Cook. Get there in nineteen eighty stickers and then beat and then we finally meet covering eighty four and It was always a thing where you know. I talk now with Federal Maxwell in they'll car some guys that I feel hate to this day guys I Hate Bill. There are and him waving the towel and step back swelled with his mouth rather running all the time but then you had the cornerstones of that team. And Larry Bird's Kevin McHale Paris Bruton. The big front line that you can never have and that will gorge in any any three people in the NBA convey no matter what air you play them. But to get past that we had to learn how to play basketball. The Celtics wake the beat us with the flow of down and in order for us to beat them. We had to speed the game up so there was a Failed Mate going on whoever initiated the first game and the way you play at home or away that was you're GonNa get an have a better chance to win so those fantastic basketball you know you hate the what's going on now the quarantine over in and we're hoping that everybody is being safe about this but it's giving us a good chance that. I've never really watched that much is the thieves NBA basketball and ESPN classic. We were good. Yeah you guys were pretty good cooped Mica Cooper Jordan this year you know real quick one last thing on that rivalry with you in the Celtics. Riley once told me a story about Shenanigans going on when you guys would play in Boston as far as the way they treat your locker room. Sometimes no heat sometimes hot water. What what was that like when they would play those Kinda Shenanigans with you. What careful but those are the change that I had heard before our way back in the day when you talked to former players I I was a team Lou Hudson Raul. How Boston was just terrible. And it through you know I remember. We playing them at eighty four It was boiling hot in Boston. We get there and our bus breakdown where we have to take cavs. Were under the under the tunnel and we finally get there and we get ready for the game. And it's it's like eighty five ninety degrees game day. We go into our locker room. All the windows closed and the heat is turned up to ninety degree. Were sweating profusely before we go out for shooter out Then we play them during the season. And it's a big game because again you. WanNa stab was bragging rights. You know we see them one time and they want to go in the season one home and one away we go there and if if if if twenty degrees in Boston We get to the game. We're going to locker room. All our windows are open and air conditioner. Turn up all the way high so things that they felt that they needed to get edgy and left. Iran are back play. But those were fun and you know what you think of it now and at the time. We were so boiling mad which actually worked for us. Because we went out with some kind of Vincent van up to play the game at the time we one more time we lost but those are the fun part. You Miss About basketball. But that's Boston's is getting everything they could to be because they knew if we turned our game to track me we were going to leave them in the dust. No doubt you certainly did that. When you face them. The second time Michael Cooper with this year coop. I heard you're doing a podcast. Called the showtime podcast. You just had Kareem on. What's that like our has been wonderful? You know through the tough times going through what better way to Michael Cooper can express themselves other than that trying to be that skinny guy to be a tough guy law. Get to use my mouth a little bit more. I was trying to date. But you know what I've Kinda turned into one now joe. But it's showtime with Coop podcasts. And what I like to call this called insightful. Bs by letting so. When I talked to my friends and I get it. Can't you know like you said I spent on how to interview? I was able to get some things out of captain. Nobody knew we know. A lot about our superstars and stuff like that but when you play with them and you Kinda like live with them like we did with magic and Scott Worthy and some of those guys are going to be my guest to the future You get the here a little bit more about that. Just the greatness that you saw on the court. I'm getting them to tell you some things off the court. There is Michael Cooper the showtime podcast with Coop. Make sure you downloaded subscribe to it. Just had Kareem on. Check it out coop. You're the best man. Stay healthy stay safe you and your family and thank you so much for coming on my pleasure and listen to us today. 'cause we got Lisa Leslie. One of the greatest female women ever play the game. I stand to play in the NBA. Probably locked centric maxwell up. We're dropping her. Say we'll check it out. Thank you I take. Care Areas Michael Cooper. Hey Don't forget chose Barclays coming up at eleven thirty but coming up next. We've got some news on the NBA and some sad news in the NFL world. We'll get to all that next.

Sydney Moncrieff Michael Michael Jordan NBA Pj CARLESIMO basketball Espn Michael Cooper Dream Team Chuck Daly Kobe Bryant College Guys Magic George Raveling Michael Jordan Larry Bird Olympics Los Angeles Lakers Charles Barkley Los Angeles Jerry Boston
This Is America: Byron Davis & Phil Allen, Jr.

The Rich Roll Podcast

2:07:11 hr | 1 year ago

This Is America: Byron Davis & Phil Allen, Jr.

"This time of courage, a time of intestinal fortitude where? White people also have to confront. Their ignorance. Ignorance is the beginning of enlightenment. It's learning. You can't learn until you confront and Russell through your ignorance, right? That's that's the foundation of fundamentals of learning. So adults have to embrace the fear and the risk of being vulnerable. What they may say out of just sheer ignorance. Is is proven to be untrue. So we definitely have to to take this opportunity to now do some some deep dive surgery into the systemic issues that allow this thing to exist. I don't know what else we can do I really. Don't if you look at literature, you look at music you look at. Movies, you look at marches. We've done it peacefully. We've done it angrily. We've knelt fist in the air. We've used our bodies. Yes, one of the primary resources we have our bodies. We've done everything we know to do, and we're still here, not just incidents but a culture. I think it takes. The white allies to be the voices advocating in solidarity to the white community because. They're not gonNA. Listen to us. Necessarily not all some will, but the masses won't listen to us. That's Byron Davis and Phil. Allen Junior. And this is the ritual podcast. Ritual podcast. Readings all season. Love Warriors. It is I rich. Roll your host. This is my transmission. Welcome to it. Okay so. As I record this mass demonstrations continue to spread across the nation and. Now the world for what I believe is something like the twentieth night in a row. And for many grappling with. Recognizing coming, to terms with The vast extent to which things like police abuse misuse of power. Racism both overt and covert. and. The toxic racial divide that persists and that is woven into the very fabric of our society has been. A wakeup call. But it's important to recognize and to confront that for black people for indigenous people people of Color. That this is just reality. That pain that violence that fear. is every day. I'm committed to better understanding this dynamic the history that led to it the systemic nature of it. Institutions that perpetuate it and the solutions for it's long overdue on doing and part of that commitment. is sharing increased diversity of voices here on the podcast hearing more from Black and African American and people of Color. Thought leaders. Right now in this current moment and moving forward. On that note today I reconnect with my friend and fellow swimmer Byron Davis along with his friend. My new friend Pastor Phil Allen Junior. Iran was one of my very first guests on this show dating all the way back to early two, thousand, thirteen or fourteen. I suggest you mind through the PODCAST Archive. Give that one a listen. Byron is just a wildly inspiring human being. He's overcome. Quite the obstacles to be this incredible individual, and in that episode we go deep into his personal story and his journey, aside from being a former USA national team member in American record holder, a Ucla, all American and an Ironman Byron. was just three tenths of a second shy. The very first African American. To Make USA, Olympic swimming team, he remains a role model for thousands of young athletes across the country. He's a sought after speaker and consultant and just one of those. Very special few with an innate penchant for helping other people unlock their inner potential. Phil Allen Junior is a pastor, a teacher poet and filmmaker behind the documentary open wounds which Dell's into the reality of intergenerational trauma through the story of his grandfather's murder and the polices. Subsequent refusal to investigate it. Fill is also the founding pastor of own your faith ministries in Santa Clarita California and a second year PhD student at Fuller, theological seminary where he studying Christian. And Theology and culture with a focus on Dr King's theology and ethics as well as the intersection of Race Theory and theology. I got a bunch more I want to say about these gentlemen and the conversation to calm, but I it's summer people and on some level. We're kind of starting to dip our toes back into the world were getting a little bit busier than we were a month or so ago, but let's not use this excuse to let our nutrition slipped through the cracks and an ideal way to do just that is. is by keeping. The fridge stocked with all kinds of goodness from daily harvest, daily harvest delivers clean, nutritious, really tasty and beautifully crafted meals right to your door. All their food is built on fruits and vegetables. No preservatives, no added sugar. 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So remember when you used only have like three color choices for your shoes, and they all involve some sort of terrible neon purple will not with on my friends. These kicks are sleek, and the gear feels like it's custom-tailored. It's time to exceed your performance expectations and turn heads while you're at it and right now on is offering my listeners incredible exclusive deal. You're not gonNA get anywhere else. Else or from any other shoe brand you could try any on shoes or gear for thirty days. Put them to the tasks that means actually running in them before you decide to keep them. If you're not convinced, you can send them back for a full refund, so no risk had on over to on Dash, running dot com for slash ritual. That's o n Dash, running dot com slash ritual. Okay! To put it bluntly, this is what think an important at times heavy conversation about what this historic moment represents, and what it means to be black in America. It's about the economic history of slavery in the United. States, it's about the extent to which racism is perpetuated systemically I way of policy, law, economics, politics, and generations of socialization. And the ways in which white supremacy is embedded and our religious, political educational, and basically every institution in this country, and it's about getting honest about the extent to which in the manner, in which he embedded nature of racism persists often completely unconsciously with ourselves. Myself included. This moment is an important crossroads. Sorry, it's an opportunity. A potential awakening. And a collective responsibility to. Gain, objective clarity on historical truth to define what our values truly are, and put them into action to dismantle. That which is broken and to rebuild from the ground up, not just our country and our institutions. But ourselves as well. I'm grateful to Byron and Phil for showing up for being open for being patient and vulnerable with me. For sharing their perspective on race, they're very personal encounters with racism and their stories of pain. And I'm well aware that this conversation might be uncomfortable for some. But I truly believe that conversations like this are crucial if we WANNA finally transcend our past. We want to learn if we WANNA. Grow we want to. Do Better and lead by example I, for one committed to being teachable to being challenged to leaning in. And being part positive change. Final show in the week. That has elapsed since we recorded this. Phil decided to make his documentary open wounds, which again is about the lynching of his grandfather and the subsequent police cover-up. Available on video on demand powerful forty one minutes I strongly suggest you check it out and you can find a link. To that film in the show notes or on fills website at Phil Allen Junior Phil Allen Jr dot com slash open wounds. DOC second fill is also an amazing poet and spoken word artist and I was remiss in not exploring this with him during the podcast. I sincerely regret not asking him to perform one of his pieces, so I also encourage you to check out his art on his youtube page, which also linked in the show notes, and you should start with his poem colorblind, but not colorless which I found particularly powerful. Finally and especially to those who may be feeling some resistance to this conversation I would encourage you to watch the documentary thirteenth on Netflix if you haven't already. Which I think does. An amazing job at contextualising and explaining the SYSTEMIC ASPECT OF RACISM I. RE washed it with my family, the other night and It's just unbelievably powerful and eliminating. To Echo Cornell West. What we don't need are lukewarm folk. We don't need summer soldiers what we need. Are All season love warriors. And it is in that spirit that I give you. Byron Davis and Phil Ellen Junior. Gentlemen welcome thank you for doing this. Thank you man. This is great. It's good to have you guys here. So why don't we start with? Just you guys briefly introducing yourselves kind of what you do, and then perhaps we can pivot into taking a ten thousand foot view out of where we're at right now. Well My name is Phil Allen I'm a founding pastor of on your faith ministries in Santa. Clarita California. I'm a second year student at Fuller Theological Seminary, studying Christian ethics, and the Energy and culture and my my focus Dr King's The algae and ethics as well as the intersection of race. Theory and theology says my. My Study of my research was dinner at I'm an author and filmmaker just produced a short film. Open wounds but my grandfather's murder. In nineteen fifty-three family never got justice, and it talks a lot about intergenerational trauma from racial tragedies. And systems and structures in in where do we go? What do we do now I try to find the film online. I watched the trailer, but yeah, it's not. It's not publicly available right now. Right? Yeah, soon soon. But I know that I know that produces I can get you a link all right now. and. What does that mean Christian ethics maybe explain that a little bit just. Ethics we have terms like social ethics Ethics in particular context, but it's just a biblically informed Scripture informing the ethics and how we right now. How do we respond to? A A murder that we see on. On camera for the world to see. How do we respond? Inability ability informed manner to this How do we respond to What's happening in politics has a Bible. informed that so yeah, it would seem that everything that's happening right now. Your your your whole life and everything that you've been studying has been preparing you for this moment. Yes, yeah. Yeah I. I wasn't going to release the film post trying to get a film festivals. And when this happened. People who've seen it club screened it a few times in La. Said you gotTa Show Phil You gotTa. show the film right. And thought about it this past week and I said you know what this is the time. and There are other projects I want to do, and so maybe this. Maybe this is what this is four because we did it in six months, right, we filmed edited. Produced. And Screened within six months and raise the funds and so maybe this. This is what that was for. Yeah. I support that I mean I think you could take it to a bunch of film festivals which now are all on hold or don't exist anymore for a couple small audiences, or you could release it publicly and attract a wide amount of attention. Yes, to the issue. I mean essentially the film is about your grandfather. who was you know without mincing words lynched right getting to the bottom of what happened in how that you know played out and was covered up? Yes, yes. In how it affected my grandmother. Sixty years later She's still the trauma was still there. She couldn't couldn't talk about it in it how it affected my father. when he found out. That his father was killed by a man that lived a few doors down from them. and It changes life. And so. That was the man who raised me. Or, who was my father right so therefore, there's GonNa. Be Some things going on in my life. that I'm dealing with because it was passed on to me. And I had no idea the root of it. Yeah, inside started do just research and I realized with a pain. My Grandmother's pain was like why she was the way she was right. Why my father was the way he was in. It actually led to having more compassion. My Dad when I found out. Because we didn't have a good relationship. And there was a Lotta forgiveness news needs to happen on my part because of the trauma that he experienced that got passed down and wasn't ever fully processed or communicated away. Were you could get past it? Yeah, my father. He, never he. You know. We had a conversation a few years ago where he was. Healing or grieving his mother and my uncle, his brother's death, which would like seven months apart. And I ask them. Do you think you are grieving your father's death to? He's I never knew my father. I was too. When asked to right, and that's my point. Because, you know. Domestic violence I grew up in domestic violence. They saw it for the first fifteen years of my life. My father had drug addiction, alcohol, addiction, anger, serious anger problems, and there was hate in my heart towards my dad. And so when I found this out. The nose like wait a minute. He was nine when he found out. He's still processing this. Like what would I do if I was nine years old and I found out that my father was killed. Yeah. So. It led me to to to forgive. The story was that he fell off a boat or something like that they say fell off the boat, but my grandmother I'm talking her father. went to the funeral home in until the funeral director. Don't doing to body until I get there. And he got there, and he saw the below in the back of his head or neck. because body came up couple days later. And so They know it was murder. and then I I recently found out the man who shot him. Confessed it before he passed away. someone knew him in. He was in his later years in any eight confess. I, guess. He felt he could trust that person right and he confessed it. But he's no longer here so right. Yeah, yes, so it's a justice that could never be redressed. And what does that do to? A young man at each nine when he finds out, and how does he carry that throughout his life and pass it along? Yeah! Well I WANNA. Get ended out a little bit more deeply but Byron. We go way back. Yeah, we go way back. I'll be quick Of course you rich you. You're at Stanford. I was UCLA swimming. And you know I'm a former athlete turned speaker consultant Phil Nigh became good friends and brothers when we were both on staff at a church. Called Shepherd Church John Puerto Ranch but we've been connected for close to fifteen years now thirteen fifteen years, and both both he and I you know didn't necessarily start out in this journey of of of becoming activists in this issue, but by by nature of you know how. He grew up how I grew up. It's an even when the climate that we're in now it it. It just makes sense and you know I think part of our our mission and our goal. Our heart is to elevate the conversation around race and around You know superiority around racism, and you know just around people groups of people in their silos, a constantly pointing out you know the wrong and other people and causing so much division that we don't get smart mines on all sides working together to actually. In deal. Ultimately, he'll the problem, right. He so humble man. You know what I mean. Listen like. For people that are watching or listening like Byron was Byron's legend like this guy was incredible athlete in. Were you the first African American to make the USA national team? actually I. Know there was one person might be formed now I'm blinking, which is terrible but yeah was it was one of the first right, and just three tenths of a second separated you from becoming the first African American to make a USA Olympic team in swimming. I was there trials. I watched that race. because Bark Henderson was my you know. Way Back. But I have, and we talked about this and Byron on the podcast, and the very early days, I think it was episode seventeen and we went through his whole life story so I encourage everybody to go back and listen to that to get a full. Picture of of your life, but you had to overcome incredible obstacles to you know not just become the athlete that you became, but to become the man, the father and the husband that you are today. and I got nothin', but you know mad. Respect for you know that journey that you went on, and you've always comported yourself with just tremendous Grace and and just composure through what I would imagine. You know was incredibly difficult at times and the fact that you're you kind of just you know didn't even mention any of those things I just WanNa make sure that people really understood like I remember you know we talked about this before, but I remember being swim meets and seeing Byron on the deck and he was just. The guy was like a Greek God. Watching this guy professor. And so I'm honored to be your friend and to have you guys here today so? Why don't we I want to get your perspective on on? What's going on right now? From like a ten thousand foot view? Like how are you perceiving? The current climate and Series of events that we're seeing unfold like rapidly like everything is accelerating very quickly. right now, but give me a sense of kind of where your head is at. I the first thing that comes to mind is. pain! Is manifesting itself. particularly from the black community. Because George. Floyd represents a lineage. Of Black bodies that die senselessly. It just so happens. There was a camera to capture it. And I don't know many African American men particularly. That don't have stories whether it's police officers or civilians where? It could turn ugly lead to something like that because you come across people that just. WanNa, FLEX authority on Superiority I've got those stories matter of fact this. This last incident. Impacted, ME HARDER than the others because. Well was interesting as I. I realize on Thursday just a few days ago. That my body responded when I saw the video. But. My mind did not understand why. This thing was so heavy until a few days ago. So. When I saw it. There's this response here. That does traumatic response to my body, and my mind knew that this was heavy him crying out the day. I can't right. I can't study and read. And in a few days ago, I realize this is why it took me back nineteen years to my personal experience. and New, York being pulled over profiled. and. It didn't lead to brutality or anything, but he was instigating me the COP. He told me what he could do is nothing I can do about it. And he stood in front of me and he stared at me. And I guarantee you. If he stood in front of me today I could ill views in a lineup. I could point them out nineteen years later, so I never forgot that look. So I saw the cops is that's what did it? It meaning meaning like I'm the one in control here and then this this this evilness hate. He was looking at me like he despised me. And it was, he was like he was in my face right here, maybe not even as far away, just staring at me and I wouldn't bow my head. I just stared back at him. And when I saw the COPS is. It reminded me took me back and that's why this is so heavy. Me There was something just so brazen about it and casual. And there was awareness, there was an awareness that they were being filmed and it didn't seem to matter. And I think that is really chilling. Yes, yes, and I just to add. One I I am grateful that it was finally that was finally captured. On video because events up until this point again, this isn't the first incident police abuse immortality that's been caught on video but what was caught. Was You had police officer? Who in his posture? Had full control over the situation. And intentionally decided to put his hand in his pocket. And stand in a position of dominance. Over this black man. Until the black man died. I capturing that with other officers other officers. And one officer. Timidly even suggesting hey, I think we got this under control and him like no. You know you're a rookie on the job you go over there. You know that all was captured. And I think for the first time in this age of social media. More people actually saw that. Not a black kid running away and being shot. or brutally being beat up and we come in halfway through the video think. Era Right. We were able to see that. I think that's in addition to pain I. Think it also evokes a lot of anger. Among the African American community. Because this is what we speak about behind closed doors all the way to the twenty first century I I'll never forget my son right before he went off to college as a freshman at USC, now he and I in Sophomore. Year had the talk. And, what what's the talk? It's the talk that black men have with their black sons and nephews about how to engage in an encounter interact with the police. If you're pulled over or anything of that nature I actually had to have the talk with my son. That's gone on for I. Mean We can't even count right? There is a palpable sense that this is an election point and what you know allowed this moment to you know, capture the the attention of the world in in such a huge way. I it seems to be unclear like is it, is it? It seems to be that it's the confluence of a bunch of these events happening in a serial fashion. All of a sudden compounded by you know people being. cloistered in their homes and jobs being stripped away like there's a rawness right now to everybody that I think has contributed to. This is being an extraordinary flashpoint for not just America, but the world and I'm interested in whether you think that. There is. The possibility that this is going to be different. We've here before we were here in Ferguson. In two thousand fourteen, and there was a sense that things were going to change and they didn't really change. The world was paying attention very closely for a short period of time, and then it moved on. I'm sure in nine hundred sixty eight. There was a sense that we were going to emerge into post. Race nation and we've made progress, but we fallen far short of that Mark So. Do, you feel like we're now in a position to make the changes that are necessary to make, and and what are those changes? I think we are I'm. I'm skeptical but I think we have the potential to make significant change. Like. You said we've been here multiple times before. That's why one reason why. I'm a little skeptical. But we if we don't make the mistake of just simply responding to the incident, the moment like that's the only that we're responding to, and then once dies down. We think everything's okay. Maybe justices served in Eagle to the cops. To prison family may get some money, and so justice is served so now move on i. think this is a moment. Where and I I say this all the time to white community to be baptized. To be immersed in a culture, a history per perspectives that are not your own. So I talked to I'll teach class or I'll. I'll preach or have a workshop in one of the things I hear when the most consistent things I hear is I never knew that. I usually will do a survey of history to walk us. Go back and bring us to this point. So people can get context. and. People are stunned. Because they never knew they never knew Emmett till they never knew about the mount of the extent of lynching. They never knew that veterans African American? Veterans from the war were to would come back and many of them were lynched because now there are threat. There have been empowered as soldiers in wanted equal, but they would be lynched or killed or beaten. Would have you and people just didn't know the extent of this For whatever reason they think is just. These particular is located incidents. Then the systemic structural, the institutional racism, the laws and policies from decades ago that we're living out the legacy of today that perpetuate disparities along racial lines. where it doesn't need to be an individual doing something, the laws and policies do them for you. The right of that is the definition of systemic guess, right? It doesn't Matt like the narrative that gets spun is there is no systemic racism I'm not racist I. Don't have racist friends, but the very definition of systemic means that you don't have to be individually racist. You can opt out of that completely if nobody's racist, the system is constructed in a manner that still leans towards favoring those that have against those that have not. We'll continue to repress the African American community until it's deconstructed and rebuilt with checks and balances that ensure. Proper, equality and freedom for all, and that's okay well when I think one thing that is different now is is not just black folks angry. Like when you go to the protests like you said you see everybody. They're not in my hope. Is that from this? The, Bat, that's why u-turn baptize now immerse yourself in understanding how we got here. Because if we don't, we will compound the issue. Trying to fix it especially trying to fix it really quick we'll just compound issue. 'cause we understand it fully. That's why as one reason it gives me a little bit hope. This is different because the people who I see are are angry and out there as multi, not just primarily black pedia. Yeah, that has been a big difference. Go ahead, write. History's always been told. From the perspective of the victorious right, right people who can control the narrative, and so when you, when you look at the the foundation in the history of the United. States of America. It was founded on the backs of slavery. Okay I mean even when you just go all the way back to when you had the Europeans coming over and in conquest and adventure, it was economically driven right. It was all that the foundation and when they tried to initially in. in indigenous people and Native Americans that didn't work out very well. Because Native Americans knew the lay of the land they could, you couldn't keep them captive. And they found an economic model that was actually going to work, and so from the very beginning of our history. All the way through up through today you see the the systemic scaffolding of white supremacy imbedded in the system and You know you you ask the question you know. Can there be changed their? There won't be changed until those who have a vested interest in keeping the status quo the way it is. Are Willing to challenge their own worldview and win. Their blind spots are actually pointed out had the courage to change Because then that's going to actually shift a lot of the power in a lot of the privilege that exists even today. People don't like to do that Alexander. Exactly Right right and that's where it's scary. Yeah, and and so when you when you get this this narrative, a good book is is because white for town fragility by Robin The Angelo Robin Dangelo. Thank you that actually speaks a puts a lot of good language in articulates this big fear that many white people have about confronting their own racism because you don't necessarily have to be a person that hates overtly hates another person's by because of their skin color to still perpetuate racism. You just have to recognize when you are asserting yourself and catch yourself. One has to catch themselves on. What is the benchmark in the gold standard or the norm by which they define and rate everything else you know, my daughter for instance you know when a white kid comes up to her, not meaning anything malicious. And tells her. You look cute for black girl. right right, it's it's it's. It's this idea of wait a minute. I'm comparing her beauty to a standard. That I'm not even aware I'm even comparing. Legitimate video clip that was going around with a the Australian News Caster who is interviewing the twin women who who? I think they were twins and they came from a mixed race mixed race parents in one look very white, one look very black, and and the newscaster was complimenting the the white looking twin, and saying you know good on you that you got the. Right! Yeah, it's that. That is prevalent and that's baked into. Every facet of our system. I can only speak to my own experience as a white privileged male, and you know I can tell you that that I've had to do my own soul searching to look for. You know where I've. I was going to say like Gone Awry, but I think that's the wrong phrase like more where my blind spots are in all of this you know I don inadequate job of ensuring that I have a diversity of voices on the podcast, and what are the things that I'm doing? You know throughout my daily life that I'm not consciously aware of, but yet are. Part of the problem right. And I think you know one of the things. That I've been been struggling with over the last couple of weeks. As somebody who has a platform is how do I communicate about this? And what I've what I've? Noticed in myself is a resistance to speaking because. I don't WanNa. Say The wrong thing. I framed that if I say this, it's GonNa. Be misinterpreted care about people being you know like the people the trolls. That doesn't bother me at but I. do want to get this right and I wanNA make sure that I'm affected. And my communication and I think that that, but that fear of. Of needing or wanting it to be as accurate as possible, has prevented me from speaking up, or as or as frequently as I could and should be doing and I. think that's something that's probably you know a common thing that a lot of white people have right now so. You know what are what are the questions like? What is the right question to ask right now like if you're speaking to a white person like what are the things that they should be thinking about? And how can they contribute and participate in this in the most effective way? I think a great question is should be asking. How did we get here? because I think I listened to a lot of people speak as if they have the answers again because of this. And recent events. In the anger that you see is not just because of these events. This is anger that stretches back four hundred years because when as an African American Community when we see something happen. It's never just about the thing that happened it's typically. About the history, this is another thing that's happening. So this is a natural thing We don't just look at our breeze situation. We don't just look at George. Floyd or Briana Taylor and We literally just like a filed that you just recall the faces and names like that or I could go back to Emmett till immediately. I, your personal experiences and personal experiences so. I think a good question to ask is. How did we get here? And I don't think enough people ask that question. I think for one one reason. Is going to force people particularly white folks to look at this country differently. Is going to force them to somewhat white agility. Deangelis talking about it. It forces them to look at themselves. because. To Be American subconsciously is to be white. right and everything else is measured against that. AM! I've had people have conversations where guy was say Yeltsin at this in this room and it was a bunch of people's defers. You know and I you know Americans were there and then he began to to list the African American of the Black Folks Hispanics. They weren't American I. Guess. Right, but he when he was in American, he was talking about the white folks over there and he did is he wasn't bad person who's a great guy? But subconsciously he just associated American with white men typically. What happens insult to look at how we got here? is to now have to open up yourself to seeing this country differently because I always asked a question when you say America is so great. Which your definition of greatness? And Win Because if you're talking about power, military might and prosperity certainly. If you're talking morally and being a just society you have to. You have to go back and help me. Understand win was that? Because, there's always been systemic a legalised oppression. In this country. There's never been a decade at a time. In history now, history wasn't the case. Challenged that notion of greatness. We have the potential to be absolutely. And so I think how did we get? Here is a great question to ask in addition to that also. I think people have to. This time of courage a time of Intestinal. Fortitude where white people also have to confront. their ignorance. when when we don't know and that's exposed. That's vulnerable and and it doesn't mean this this goes beyond race is just human nature human condition. If if we're not something, we don't know something. And and and our current idea or point of view, or or answer that we thought was true. is shown not to be by just based on evidence. That's a very vulnerable position to be in okay. No one likes their ignorance exposed, but if you look at that, even that term ignorance from just the sheer educational definition, ignorance is the beginning of of enlightenment. Its of its learning you have to, you can't learn until you confront and Russell through your ignorance, right? That's what that's the foundation or the fundamentals of learning, so adults have to embrace The. Fear and the risk of being vulnerable You know, win win they. What they may say out of just, sheer ignorance. is proven to be untrue. Will it requires a certain humility right Oh and I'm uplifted because I'm seeing a willingness to embrace this conversation in a way that that I can't recall in my lifetime, and that that gives me hope, but it's juxtaposed against a climate and a culture that is more deeply entrenched in there in being right and their silos, and the division that we're seeing right now. I it's it's sort of a war between those two things right now. No social media fomenting this division across America where people just want to yell at each other, and no one is taking a pause to actually listen and take stock and. Perform a little bit of you know forensic self analysis, but I think these events have led us to a point where we are seeing a certain portion of the population doing that I'm attempting to do that here today and I think that's really the only path to healing, and to and to really reconstructing society around more equitable lines. Ridge I. Think you're totally right. You hit the nail on the head. Is You have to be willing to have those kind of conversations when you can get? win intelligent people. Are are stuck in their silos and their echo chambers. and and and spend more energy trying to defend their position, then admit that this is a multifaceted complex problem that is going to take rigorous and consistent attention to in order to really right in order to really solve the problem until we're willing to to really embrace that then. It's it's GonNa be an uphill battle. It's GonNa be hard because we are. We feel more comfortable. Win We think we're right. Or when we had the upper hand, and so when you have people on all sides, digging in and you know having good points. On every side, but spending most of our energy, trying to point out where and why the other side is wrong as opposed to instead of being on opposite sides of the table. Coming together on one side, and actually pouring all of that energy into the problem. I think that's that's. That's the heavy lifting that has in conversations like this is a start. But I think what what message we want to continue to to really advocate is after the protesting after the new cycle you know has died down after you know the the shifting attention moves to something else will we have enough boots on the ground committed to to wrestling within the trenches to right the wrong that we clearly see right now. Yeah, that energy has to get channeled into some kind of productive change that that is. Know architect it around strategies and tactics to actually enact the changes that are necessary rather than just sort of outrage that. Dissipates into the atmosphere, which is again why you hear people really pointing the spotlight on the dysfunction within the the justice system. And you get a lot of people on one side saying you know that's just those are just bad apple cops. And deflecting the attention on no, this is just if we look at it in terms of virus, this is just a flare up. Of of of something that you know is still alive on the inside. And, what we're seeing is just a flare up a happening, but if we don't if we just deal with the the surface, you know issue and not deal with the root cause on the inside is just going to be a matter of time before this little thing heels, but in a months weeks years another flare-up happens, so we definitely have to to take this opportunity to now do some some deep dive surgery into the systemic issues that allow this thing to to exist. I think listening to you Byron. I think one of the. Things to look at it as the power dynamics. when you come to the table and we talk division. And each everyone wants to be right. when you come to the table, you have to relinquish power because it has to be a compromise well as an African American man I come to the table, I'm already lack I'm already behind already I'm at the I'm marginalize already I. Don't want to let go of power whatever power I do have to have that one to protect myself at this table to speak up for myself. Go have much. The white person comes to the table. They're used to having power, not even not individual necessarily, but representing the group that's in power, and they get to decide how much power everybody else has s uncomfortable if you have to relinquish that. To come to the table to have discussion right, so it's uncomfortable for both sides. It's a power, struggle, right and so I. Don't know how you. I don't know how you self police that I don't know how you hold each other accountable But that's. That's what I'm hearing. 'cause I know when I come to the table. I'm coming girded up. Because I don't know when I don't know when the next time going to be at the table. I don't know what decisions are going to be made. That's going to affect my life so I have to come with my power my. And my white brothers and sisters when it comes to the table, they're used to being. It's natural to be in that position. I've been in these meetings before even in the church where I see this. And I have to flex is to assert myself because I don't I will get crushed. And then it becomes this battle and I'm looked at as the person who's out of your being so good. Angry Black Man, right and I'm like no, just because you're composed. I'm passionate over here I'm frustrated because you have this power, and you're trying to assert that. Impose that upon me. I'm not letting you five to one out of control, the angry black guy and so that's where the struggle comes I just had a conversation. Would have pastor. recently and it didn't go well. I mean, it was bad. and. I didn't know I didn't really know the guy, but it was bad and I I saw the power Amex near right and I was one of relinquish mind because. I wasn't let him dictate for me. One how I should respond to this. George Floyd. Situation was to let him dictate to me. My understanding of racism like literally. This is all I do. Every day every wing. Other than. bald-faced racism and these systemic problems that have created these institutions. Create inequality. A huge. Obstacle or Opposing force to black lives matter is a huge swath of. Under privileged disenfranchised white Americans who have lost their jobs or are seeing you know declines in their. In their ability to make a living at Sarah, who are who are hurting and It seems to me that that's the most activated group of people who because they because they feel like. They're they're? They're not being heard right, so their natural inclination is to. Voice their anger in an unproductive way by opposing this movement. And I. Think you have to you on some level that like that? That has to be addressed in order for everybody to come to the table to compromise I suppose. How do you think about that shoe? Richard? One I. Think it's a great point. Bring up, but it goes back to a point that Phil you were making earlier. And this is where getting an accurate perspective of history is so important. When you look back on even. After in a slavery was over and and blacks were able to end especially different pockets go out and actually start making a living you know they got their own land started opening up. Their own businesses actually started thriving i. mean under underneath military. You know protection at that point support, but they were actually thriving and starting to grow well. One of the the sectors that really be began to feel the brunt of this shift in opportunity in power was the the lower class white community. Of which the Klu Klux Klan was boat was burned inborn, because even back then they started seeing and feeling in interpreting, their lack was coming from these these these black people who are taking their jobs right like a zero sum game, zero sum game, empowerment and advancement was you at the cost of their own empowerment, exactly XS and os or binary this whole binary relationship in that in that's not true. And you continue to see that throughout history, not just with the African American. Community weakened. We can talk about the Asian Community and in the railroad. Transatlantic Railroad does built and how there was a huge. You know skift on employing. Workers to build the railroad, and by the time the railroad met in the middle of America. you look at the picture of the two sides joining and the big picture of all these men? There were all white faces the Asian Community who actually built that from the Pacific all the way to the mid West. No. No, no sign that they were even involved in this whole process because all the way through you had disenfranchised whites attacking people who thought were taking their opportunity away. So you're definitely right. What's what's being felt? Now is again another symptom of a dysfunctional structure that has to be examined and looked at rigorously. It's not an easy answer And on top of that when you have not getting political with this but but when you have voices Recognizing the divide and then throwing fuel on on, or you know gasoline on the fuel to keep the division necessary it doesn't. It doesn't help the problem but but I hope that kind of speaks to to why it's so important for for us to again. Really take this you know. Take the long This is the long game that we have to be willing to to to Russell with and then look at you know. Why are a lot of a white? Traditionally white communities suffering white lower. Class communities suffering will. It's not because blacks or Latinos are taking their jobs. It's because the system that actually created economic opportunity may be in that environment or that local area has shifted so there's not coal any longer. It's not an industrialized support, system or infrastructure that's generating the revenue for that community. Things have shifted automation. A lot of things have changed. That has now taking dollars in cash flow out of that community and so we got look at that we we have to look at this problem in a very compound complex way, and then in the process of solving the problem together be willing to look at our blind spots when our blind spots are exposed yeah. We let's go back a little further sixteen hundreds. Rallying route sixteen eighty. This is one of the things that you understand. White supremacy is a very exclusive. Original very exclusive club. It was white and wealthy. So the lower class or the working class, the poor whites actually had more in common with the with indentured. Servants and slaves back in the sixteen hundreds, and then they did with the merchants, and there was an uprising I. Think Bacon's rebellion. There was uprising. This is when the term white became a legal term. And privileges became attached to it. And this is how they divided the the African Americans. African slaves, adding indentured servants and the whites, the white poor whites the. If you're white, you could have. Property, you could vote. You could be a citizen. You had privileges. So this is where we start with the white privileges, and so that divided because now the poor white saw themselves on the hierarchy here and blacks were here. We're not like them. We'll just a few weeks ago. We were this and so white supremacy actually crushes its own. But there's such an allegiance even from poor whites to whiteness. And it's privilege. Its superiority doesn't see that. They actually have more in common with other marginalized groups. Because white supremacy by nature is not just whiteness, but it's wealthy. And that. Is GonNA power struggle it'll. It'll crush anything. That's not in that group. Yeah, it'll turn each other. Because it's built on greed and avarice. And when you can have a person who remains nameless. Position himself as the blue-collar billionaire. and. Trump you know, it's when you have a person who's able to in his own narrative and his own campaign to the presidency hijack the the the the narrative and convince those who are marginalized. WHO had no nothing in common with this guy? You know today's vote in you know. Allow him to be the voice of their disenfranchisement if I if I can say that. What's brilliant from a marketing standpoint? It was brilliant because. was able to to do that and then point their angst in their anger toward again other marginalized groups I mean we saw we see this even back in the days of and I'm not comparing Hitler trump by any means, but we can see what. What was it that allowed Hitler. To create such a strong narrative that. Permeated outside of Germany to the rest of the European world and demonize You know the the Jewish community will it was a narrative of pointing the finger at all of these Jewish mertens and business owners, and saying they are the reason why you're poor. They are the reason why you don't have opportunity. It's them and and that message that narrative was allowed to go again echo and echo and echo, and pretty much before you know it, and even the the minister of propaganda you know of of of the the Nazi movement says if you tell a lie long enough. The masses will believe it. Yes. Certainly he's a master of of creating reality out of his own. You Know Delusional Narrative, an energizing his base by putting a face on what that enemy is without expressly saying it, but through every action and everything that comes out of his mouth, it is you know gasoline on this fire and. You know I think it's going to blow up in his face and I. Think we're seeing that right now, My hope is that this is going to energize young voters to turn out I. Mean just what we're seeing in the streets right now I've never seen public activism on this level, and so I'm hopeful that change will come in November but if we've learned anything. These. There's nothing off the table right now. in terms of what what could happen but. His ability to. leverage that. Anger and sense of disenfranchisement for his own personal gain, and do it under the rubric that he is. In their interest, and is one of the great snake oil hat tricks of all time, yeah! Definitely. Yeah I was with. Actually, having a conversation with a a good friend of mine who happens to be very right wing conservative Christian. He and I were on a conversation. A long conversation and I just share it. Was it was? A A thought experiment. You know I decided I I, asked him I, said Hey. Let's let's do a thought experiment really quickly. He and I were roommates at UCLA. Freshman year okay. And he came from Iowa and I'm from inner city, Cleveland okay, both coming together and having to room together and learn a lot about each other through this whole first year at at in college. And I share it with him I. Said Hey look. Let's put race aside, and and let's just look at this from an aspect of privilege. I, said you and I. Were athletes who were blessed at get scholarships to ucla correct and he's like yes, and I said well You know, be honest, would could you have gotten into UCLA on sheerly? Your sat scores and your GPA. And he was like no right and I was like well. Guess what is join a club metoo. We were both there right? Here's a white guy, saying the exact same thing and I guess you and I were beneficiaries of the privilege that was extended to us. in the form of an athletic scholarship. You know our our names were put higher on the list of admissions. Because of some perceived value that we were bringing to the university. That's privilege. That's the privilege that you nor I deserved. Yeah, we can both make the argument that we worked hard in the pool. We got faster and and we. We demonstrated that that we were good enough to compete at the college level. Sure that doesn't take away our effort at all, but. What we have to really recognize and be honest about is if there was not an infrastructure that valued swimming at the D. One level. Enough that they were willing to say we would love to give you. You know equivalent to your tuition and books. If you to swim with us if that construct if that infrastructure didn't exist, we probably wouldn't be able to get in But you might not have put so much. Energy into being a good swimmer had that opportunity not existed like in your horizon right? Yeah you. You might have channeled your energy in a different direction and I kept saying I should have been a basketball player. So That's interesting. Though this idea of how of how Christianity fits into all of this and another juxtaposition with how Christianity has been leveraged by the right it in a manner that contravenes the core principles of what this religion is founded upon and yourself as a pastor and barnes a former pastor Like, let's talk about that like I. Listen, you did a you did a sermon like a recent podcast? Okay, that I listened to where you kind of break all this down in you don't pull punches at all in that which I appreciated so. Where does faith play into this? Politically and also spiritually with respect to the movement that we're seeing at the moment. Well two things One I think we have to be honest. We've been deceiving ourselves. Into thinking that we are practicing the Christianity that that in scripture. American Christianity looks very differently, and it's intertwined with Americanism. It's individualism capitalism. I just wrote a paper. Turned into a book one day neoliberal. The Neoliberal Gospel. And it's IT'S A business? And we forget about where we get to factor in a people business actually. So I. Think I think the way we. We we live out. Christianity. We have to be honest at. We're far from. I'm pretty critical about the church. With far from as a as a group living out what we see in scripture, it's very Americanized. But as a pastor. What I'm seeing happening is I'm seeing trauma. I'm you said earlier, we witnessed. A lynching. A public lynching. I had a guy come up to me once I pre sermon in the last couple of years. Almost everywhere I go I. We've in justice into it. Sheer my Grandfather Story Odu I. Gentlemen Comes Up to me afterwards and says he's in tears, and he says. I have to confess you know my grandfather. WAS He has pictures in the house. A of him, standing in a crowd, proudly smiling in his lynched black body. Hanging behind him. When he was younger. Or maybe when he was adult on no, he said those pictures are all around. How we're around my grandfather's house growing up, they were just normal. As crazy yen. Yeah, he's in tears and he's apologized, but he doesn't know what to do with that. And what I'm seeing this man. I had to get past my offense to that. It wasn't hard. I was in past or pastor. Mobile man was genuinely tears broken. What does a child seeing that? What does that do like? Our souls aren't meant to see that in be normal. Or experienced it or engage it and be normal. What we saw was a public lynching two weeks ago. That's not normal to move past that and not address the pain. The wounded nece the trauma. That wouldn't be normal so for me. I think that we can I see too many people trying to fix the problem. They're trying to rush to fix the problem. Well. How many of us have ever been a relationship with someone who's wounded like deeply deeply wounded. And ended up, being toxic than had to be a romantic relationship, it could be a friendship there, just talks. Right well, they're. They're still dealing with some stuff that they've never addressed in their lives. They've never walked through the healing process and I think it is critical right now. That there be intent. We be intentional as the church if we say, we're about those core principles that we tend to the wounds. Of, those who witnessed? This this this lynching and I see too many people in the church. They say nothing about. The murder. Their focuses on the either the looting. And the violence there. Or their focus focuses on trying to. was the word for trying to. Debate against this idea of systemic racism and they waved at into politics. They politicize it. They spend more energy there and he's A. I'm. I'm detoxing my social media as we speak I'm saying cookie posting? People's since I'll know who earn friend. I don't want that in my you know. I'm detox in me I'm like. You're not even open. Okay? I'm on I. Don't want that in my feet. Yeah, right? Maybe I shouldn't unfamiliar on follow that they can still see my stuff. Out to deal with this right. Here's something to just to continue to add So, what what? WHAT DOES THE CHURCH DO Like feel I'm coming down pretty hard on the church, because if you if you just look at the life and teachings of Jesus. You can't be so. so gripped. Your ideological and political believes whether you're from the right or the left. To the point where you forget about. What scripture teaches you about how to engage in love your fellow man, your fellow, brother and sister. I mean that's I. Mean the the foundation you know in the the message of Jesus and his teachings is love. And if if you can't start there at all and I'm not just being like the Kumbaya type of you know this. We all get along. I love you. I don't see color I'm not even talking about that I. I hope you see color. I want you to see color I you to see the differences because that's I think we're the beauty is what what what I think is important is if you care more about your political posturing. And positioning more than you do about being an example, a model, a vessel of of the love that Jesus died for. Then your religion you know is is death. It's mute. It's dead because because that's not what he lived and ultimately died for. You know so that that's that's. That's the voice, or that's my My charge and encouragement to the Christian community is hey. We're supposed to have the playbook. To lead through this time right now. We're we're supposed to be the ones that people can actually look to to see. How do you bring to people who have different ideas? Totally different walks of life and come together in a way in a supernatural miraculous way I mean the church should be leading the charge. Yeah, what are the moral and ethical guidelines hosts? That are going to dictate how we navigate this. Land Field Right and I. I love example, the analogy of the wounded friend. It's like if you think of a friend who's deeply wounded or has suffered tremendous trauma and use that as a stand in for the African American community. How do you interact with that person? Do you come to them and say well I'm going to fix you with these three things and we can talk about. How we need to overhaul policing and police brutality, and there's you know several steps that we can take towards redressing that, but that's not going to heal that wound overnight. You come to a wounded friend with compassion and with understanding and with patients. Not with a motivation to change or to fix, but the understand. That to your point. I think about the story. Samaritan man. Man's left inside a role to be beaten. Not to king preaches on this A. Brilliant. The African American community. For, the sake of this conversation is the man left a debt to die on the on the road. The Samaritan Man. Will the church is the priest Levi. Who walked to the other side? Leave him leave him lane near the newly touch. I'm just whilst the. Samaritan man is supposedly like this person who's not connected to God like the recently, but this person comes and gets to gets to his knees. Intends to the wounds? He's taking a risk. Because there be some other robbers high now waiting for the next person to walk on that road, he's taking a risk by tending to this man's wounds. He takes this man and puts this man on his animal while he walks to the in. So he's now sharing resources and he's giving up. Access to those resources to a degree he gets to the in. He says here's here's for his stay to. He gets better and in whatever if he stays longer, charge it to me. I'll take care of it because he has the resources. Now here's we that that should be the church's response for the tending to the wounds part, but then here's the churches other response and King brings us out. We all should speak to the conditions that allow the road to be conducive for robbers to hide. And beat people up in the first place. Because if we don't address that tomorrow, Somebody's going to be back on that road. And robbers going behind now the road is conducive for that occurs and everything right. In Day would be something like we gotta put lighting up. On the road, so it's not as dark We gotTA have patrolman coming. So it scares the robbers what we have to do something to make the road safer for those who are traveling that road right otherwise. We're GONNA be back in this situation again. Yeah, an example of that that comes to mind is is what Deray mckesson is doing with. Eight can't wait to get familiar with like how he's got these steps and things that Are immediately actionable in terms of like changing how policing is done right and he seems to be at the forefront of addressing that ever since Ferguson which I. Think is a beautiful step in okay. Here are some some handles that you can actually implement, and we can hold you accountable and measures that are available to okay police departments. What do we do well? Here's here the eight that you can actually look at look at how you train your officers. Look at the current rules. And and things that are currently in place that contribute to this type of abuse in power Let's attack those things. Let's address those things you know we don't WanNA put policeman in harm's way. Any more than they are currently, that's not the intent of reconstructing this whole thing. It's to look at which of these things are not working. We're looking at a business right and a business decided to to launch a startup decides to launch. They create a software, and all would. What do they recognize inherently in the process? They have a minimum viable product that they know is not going to fly completely imperfectly when they released to market right. They they release it knowing full well that when the system begins to be in contact with reality, bugs are GONNA show up. But they also, in addition to that have a plan of rapid implementation rapid ideation to improve the system. That's the type of mindset we need to have when we're talking about our judicial system when we're talking about our policing system is recognized that. Hey, the what you have in place. Okay, it's a good start. You may have been well intended in these rules and regulations and structures, but we see that the real world is showing where the stuff is dysfunctional. Let's change that. Let's let's implement rapid You know tooling to improve. What's there and I think eight can't wait is a great suggestion in a great step in doing that. Because police departments already put that into effect. We're seeing positive benefits. We're seeing decrease and senseless police killings yet and I think what's great about. It is that it's not about rhetoric. It's data driven, so it's not just we need to define the police what? What does that even mean I understand that an emotional reaction to seeing a militarized police state that does nothing but instill fear exacerbate whatever violence you know is happening on the street, but but to actually look at the statistics and say what are the levers that we can pull? That will actually make a difference in some of them are counterintuitive. Heard him talking about it. On a podcast the other day where you would think like well. You know if you just hire more black police officers. That'll solve it, but they. That that isn't effective until they reach something like thirty four percent of the police department, being black, or you know instituting psychological ch-, psych training, or whatever like they found out that that's really not that like things that you think might work. Actually don't but looking at the data can. Show you like, but these simple things every police department can do actually could make a huge difference in in reducing fatality rates, and all of the abuse instances. Is there any part of eight can't wait that suggests. Those or empower those who are? have the power to. I don't know who would be but captains and commissioners because if they've already bought into the previous. Ideology. That actually has been passed on since eighteen hundreds. When policing was designed to patrol the slaves. And protect the property of the wealthy If that's been passed on, so if they've bought into that and that's who they are. We're asking them to to buy into something. That is foreign. Right it's it's checks and balances on individuals and systems, in which there is a systemic problem, right, it's it. These are good solutions, but you're speaking to the broader problem of dealing with the systemic aspect of it, and that goes to the psychology of the people that aren't administering these departments as well. I was talking to another a person a police officer. And we were just talking about this was actually a while back and We were just talking about the the the emotional health of police officers going into in having their their life every time they step out of the door. It's depending on their beat You know it isn't known whether or not they're gonNA come home right so that's the reality they live in. And he and I in our conversation. He was sharing. Here's some things that I think we need to improve. And I thought it was really interesting. He said number one some of the systemic issues for police officers number. One good cops have to actually be supported and protected enough to call out bad cops. A fraternity in a subculture within the precincts themselves where a good calm doesn't feel safe, and actually calling out holding accountable a bad cop. That's dysfunction in the system that needs to change. On top of that. You have to have a support system where again we're not even GONNA get into. you know the domestic violence of police officers the the drug and alcohol abuse that that's that. Can you see the divorce rate that you see from police officers? All of these things are again flare up conditions that are coming as a result of a dysfunctional system. So so we you know. I'm all for in and we support you know police officer, so this rhetoric of you know you gotta be for the blue. If you're if you're protesting than you're, you're not supporting our police officers. We gotta get past. Your, you know it's no. Let's look at the system. In which these guys and gals have to work, and let's be honest about. How can we go about helping them win in this? Then also, in addition to what I've just listed also includes you know there, since in their fear of African American males I mean there's a huge subconscious. I've experienced in my whole life, and and actually Phil now. We're talking about this and and if you look at. I've shared this before and that is there is a secret language that all African. American men women who work in you know the white collar sector. Have learned to speak and I'm not talking about being able to speak are you know, be proper and articulate I'm talking about there is a way that when we walk into a board room and we walk into an environment when we walk down the street and a white woman is approaching us. We've learned how to signal to them that. Hey, we're friendly. We're Sayyah. You know you're non you're you're non-threatening threat? You're not an angry black man, exactly you know. That is real. And and so those things have to be addressed and again the onus has to a lot of the onus has to fall on a white America and not being so fragile. In those in that context and be willing to step up and be willing to hey, if I'm passionate at Lee arguing my point across the boardroom table, don't dismiss it as an angry black man, no let's rigorously argue and deal with the points that I'm ringing up. Because if my counterpart who happens to be white is just as adamant just as as committed in expressing their point of view on this particular issue. They're going to get a pass on that This just they're going to. They're going to probably walk away from the meeting while he was, he was really really you know excited about you. Know his his his idea. He's passionate. Right, not angry. He of a double standard. It's exhausting. It's got to be exhausting. Right L.. Let's just. Say. Some days? I just don't care. When I'm walking running and I have to think about when I see that white woman. She doesn't realize she has more power. I'm more. I'm more nervous than she is. Because if she says anything. Going to get the benefit of the doubt. As sometimes. You're just tired you just. You know being when you were. GonNa make a church I'm not there now, but when you work in a mega church is like working in a big company. Instant same thing and it's. It's you have to think about it you have to. Consider it Is Mentally draining some days, you just don't care some days. I WANNA be really really passionate. And I. Don't care what you think you know. But then you, you can't be like that all the time, so you got a monitor that and this is his those microaggressions. That if we look at you, said ten thousand feet. Look at where we are going back to earlier. If! You look at everything the fatigue the anger is it is about all of this. What we're talking about is about the microaggressions is about being in the workplace, and my voice is muted by everyone. Else's voice is heard is about being in the in the grocery store or in a store and being surveilled having to surveillance We call called the White Gaze. is about what you're hyper vigilant you go. It's like walking into starbucks in the guy over there to sit and stare at you and you're like. Okay you know and you feel the is on you or the guy that almost hit me. Purposely come out a whole foods. A few months back purposely like he came within inches did not slow down. Didn't stay slow down. We didn't stop. Eighty tried to make it seem like he knew I'd already cleared, but I'm inches away. From your car. Right and just those daily occurrences, just getting put into the file cabinet, right? You know week after week after week I! Think that what's so special and unique about right now is we're seeing every flavor and color of that kind of experience writ large on social media, because the most impactful and your filmmaker, but the most impactful and. powerful film making that we're seeing right now is what's coming out of everybody's cell phone from the burder in central. Park with that woman in the account that they had from the cops that knocked over that elderly white man in Buffalo, and then all the police officers that you know resigned in their Omerta to those guys being fired. And everything in between from the police, the good police officers who? Took a knee or marched with the protesters, the bad behavior that good behavior and we're having conversations about it. That can't be a bad thing. This boil is being lanced. It's out in the open right now, and we have this extraordinary opportunity to leverage the energy around this to actually do some good with lasting change is interesting you. Both at a with the cops taken the knee. Knee goes back to the table and the relinquishing power where those who are protesting, you know it could be a young girl. It could be a small petite woman as fiery. She's holding onto whatever power she has, but that cop has to be willing to relinquish power, and he may get backlash that you're showing a sign of weakness, but you. You notice whenever they they do that. Is. Usually peaceful is usually some reckons is usually something that shifts. The tenor of the protests. But that was him, or whoever they are coming to the table at that moment, and the willingness to relinquish some power in humble themselves, and so you know what I get it. I'm still going to be a cop. I get it, but I'm gonNA deal with you. Miss Meeting them where they are, and they see now. They're no longer threatened by your power. And asked L. I think that's a perfect example of what I was talking about coming to if that can happen. Behind the scenes. When you come up with legislation or police, reform or institutional reform in companies corporations if that can happen, then you see some significant change right allowing change lasting chain, but that power dynamics are at play. And you also mentioned the example of elderly gentleman gentleman being pushed over by the police officers You know if you look at that tape I also I think it's a great snapshot of the systemic dysfunction as well because the one. Right, he was on duty in. He had his orders were to march forward. He in his humanity recognized that what just happened? And in his humanity wanted to stop to help him, but his, whoever was the commanding officer at that time or whoever literally? Physically said. No, you continue to march forward. that I think again. It tells US strong story of just how insidious! How complicated yet how urgent the problem we're facing is, and we have to be willing to Stop Looking at the status quo or looking at our job as as normal as as usual. And Start. Again, challenging, what is not working and taking the time to figure out? How can we do it better? My hope and and my encouragement is I believe we. Can you know I believe that we are intelligent? Enough? and we are compassionate enough. To, actually make. Inroads in and solve this thing I I do, but it's going to take a courageous voices and a staying power that that will allow us to eventually get escape velocity one get off the ground, and then to escape velocity he and fight through all of that natural resistance that we've been talking about this whole time. To the point where we get to an inflection point that then allows this thing to really take on a life of its own. We're nowhere near that yet, and so this gravitational pull is the area that we're in, and we have to just under stand that and recognize. We're in for a fight, so let's buckle up. Let's lock arms and let stay committed. Yeah, I think, it's GonNa require an appreciation of the incredible complexity of all of it to when you were speaking. I was thinking about the. The situation in Flint, where the the at the chief and the cops were marching with the protesters and a distinguishing factor there, at least according to my understanding is that the police officers live in the community there, whereas due to socioeconomic disparity, a lot of police officers can't afford to live in the communities in which they police creates a lack of connectivity to the people that are supposed to be protecting and serving right, so that's just another like layer or issue that needs to be unpacked and address then goes. Beyond like, how do we solve economic disparities so that? Police officers can live in the same area where the patrolling like these key. These problems are huge right huge. Huge and I like what feel has a program. I call them the four. L's and speak to that a little bit more and you talk about okay. What do we do now? You know you know. The eight can't wait I. Think is a is a great start. which is a subset of campaign zero camping, exactly exactly great website in there. Some other I can't think of it right now, but resources, but those are two great resources that I think people can go to and look at okay. What can I do now? Where I'm at 'cause, a lot of people feel defenseless. A lot of people feel hopeless and don't feel like their voice counts, or what they. They do would actually matter and that's not the case, and so hopefully in the show notes, we'll be able to you know. Give links to organizations that are bipartisan, and that are just there. They're boots on the ground. Really trying to figure this thing out. I think it'd be important, but but can you speak to just the the the the four L's that can help people walk through this process. Yeah, we, we've heard a couple of those els to listen in the learn here that all the time. DISLO back row. We'll watch a film in class for years ago. mlk class and they showed Emmett till, and that's when I realized. Wait a minute. Emmett till reminds me my grandfather. My grandfather's was body would have probably looked like that. and. We broke up into small groups and I shared with my class, my two classmates. I can't see Emmett till without seeing my grandfather. And the it kind of shocked them, so they'd be intently listening to me. They were in a context. They were learning from a Korean. mlk scholar junely. About an African American. Pastor scholar, the LOGIN mlk. So they were listening in learning. That was happening at the same time they were learning from my story, but they were learning theology and ethics. Christian theology ethics about Dr King from a Korean Maverick people color. But what was shocked me with never happened before I'd never seen. This was when they began to cry. I never seen a white person moved or feel. For, mine or my people's pain. As relates to racism. They were in tears, too. One Kid said as you see your grandfather until I, see my grandfather in the men who killed him. A huge huge. Share with the whole class, a whole class, not the whole class, but many people in class began to just be in tears. And so. I just wanted to document what I had experienced in that class that day. I said they were listening. They were learning. They lamented and for me in this journey. To what do we do? That's the sole work that needs to happen. That makes up the sole work, but the inner work because we can jump into fixing stuff and compound the issue because we don't understand the issue, we don't understand depth of the pain. We don't feel it which is in here trying to fix a problem that we think we can take care of real quick. Then is the Labor. And? The reason why the lament? Important I don't know anybody who sustains something that's. That causes change. Without passion without a burden without something in a gut that drives them. Right so now. The Labor the Labor is depending on context. The person's influence. Their relationships. who they you know, it depends on where they are in your life so like. Somebody could have a platform a huge platform, so they're labor could be as you said earlier. Bringing Megan, show diverse voices or black voices have a platform. She sharing your platform whenever a teacher I got my school. Some of them are now forced to. Relearn some of their theological positions perspective. They're they're being challenged by. People of color the perspectives of color so now they're having to diversify their reading list in your curriculums schools at now having to bring in change the dynamics with the administration, the board of trustees these are some things that need to happen, but those things won't be sustained without the Internet work the listening learning the lamenting. And so the Labor part, it depends on context where you are for somebody, it could mean joining a nation in your local community that is doing the work of social justice for somebody else. It could be funding. as well as how you? Handle your social, media platform. being responsible there I mean could mean a number of things. and I tell people in a church starts. Your Labor should start with prayer if I'm praying for this daily. Beauty to be praying for this daily to. And again on the Labor part is well. another high profile example is the CO founder of read it. You know deciding to that Yeah Alexa, so Hania. Says you know what okay I I recognize? My privilege I recognize the position that I'm in I'm going to you know again. He's more of head of cheer, role and things of that nature, but he's like I am going to use this as an opportunity to remove myself and then strongly wreck recommend that an African American person be put in this place, not in some affirmative action type way in all, but but recognizing that. Hey, look, this is something that I'm going to be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem through my complicit nece or my because I don't know what I can do, decide to remain frozen and do nothing. Like I'm going to try this. I'm GonNa do this and this is an example, but I'm also GONNA. Call out anyone else. Who is in a in a position where they can purposely and willfully. Render or give over to them. The power that's necessary to right the ship faster you know those moves have to continue to take place as well and again. This isn't about you know giving black people something that they don't deserve or unqualified for because you hear that argument to you hear that argument against affirmative action, you hear that argument, a lot of these different problems. Will you know these people aren't not really qualified to do this? So that's unfair that they would take spot. Someone who's more deserving. Not even getting into all of that will what what I'm what I? The point that I really want to highlight is no. There are enough qualified African Americans, and if you want even broaden it out, other minority groups who are just as capable. Of Excelling in that role, but if you're networks aren't healthy enough so that when you go through the hiring process, most of those jobs in influential positions are done through network. It's the buddy system right, and then they kick the tires through HR, but they've. The people have been hired. I mean I. I've had experience. We know that that's how it works until your network becomes diversified. And, I I would challenge US challenge executives and and and pastors this I said if you're in a hiring position, and there's a role that needs to be hired for, but it's an important role What do you normally do and they normally pick up the phone and they start calling their buddies. WHO's good? Who Do you got who you know and then I say well. You know the first five people you call think about it. Think about your first five people in your your Rolodex or your your context list. Now I to think about it, and then I say all right now. What color are they? If all five of those people who you'd pick up the phone and call the first five calls all of them look like you. Recognize that in that moment you're still now perpetuating the problem. Because you're only exhausting and exploring network that's going to continue to produce the same thing instead. Why not in this time actively begin to diversify your network? It could even start there Does this guy read it? I, don't know if you should. You should have done that. I don't know because if he removes himself. He's already an advocate. He removes himself and brings in this black guy. Is this black guy going to be at the table by himself? With no other voice advocating with him so rather than removing himself from the table. I think they should add more table. I think that because I don't WanNa come into a context where the guy that was advocating for me. He leaves and I find myself there now. You're the target and no one. No one else really feels the way. He feels now fighting a battle, but he's gone. With the argument that gets thrown around is that this is a performance of white guilt for the purpose of virtue signaling And that's where the the pensions can't swing the other way white guilt of of doing that. It's like, but here's where I extend a lot of grace. It's almost like you look at a kid who's just learning how to ride a bike. If they have a commitment and intent to learn a ride this bike right. The initial push off is gonNA look rocky. It's GonNa look shaky and it's not gonNA look pretty. They're gonNA. Make a lot of mistakes. They'RE GONNA fall. I see a lot of movements and gestures. Just like I, see that out of the gate. It's not gonNA be necessarily right in pretty, and it could err on the side of white guilt, but let's not demonize it. Let's not throw it away, but instead let's just again. Continue to solve for the problem so you know it's outcome thinking versus process thinking. If we just think about the process, we'll get overwhelmed and we'll get discouraged and we'll shut down, but if we. We think okay everything that we do everything that we test everything that we we apply. It always has to be laid against the outcome. The desired result we want and make informed decisions based upon how well we're moving in that direction. I think that is the that's the momentum. That's the posture. That's the flow I. Think we need to be able to be in and sustain, but but also think that if you if we don't rush. If. We don't move too quickly. We can avoid many of those mistakes. So, it was when we talk about. Listen learn lament. Part of that is to give the space of processing. So we're not out of the gate trying to. Swing the pendulum to the other side, and just right the ship. That's the whole point of that process and I shared that yes. Oh, my social media slowdown. Like we just experienced trauma of us. Experienced trauma. So they're going to be those decisions that are made to right the ship and they're going to and some WanNa compound the issue, but if we if we. Process this thing together. Slowdown. And I will say listen to the voices of color. Will make less mistakes. We won't come out of the gate Exacerbating the problem, but isn't the fear that we can't allow this energy and this momentum to dissipate. That is the fear about I. Don't think I don't think it will. I'm not saying we don't do anything I'm just saying. Let's not try to. Fix everything right away of course. In that processing. We'll make wiser decisions now. This is where as a pastor I share. You know this is where allowing God to lead me. This is why I'm allowing not just leave me, but us in community as we wrestle things even right now as we're talking, we're. We're processing. We have different, maybe different views and. Suggestions and stuff like that. But in this context, there can come, they can. Something can be. We can give birth to something right so the process. Then have to be long. It could be weeks. It could be a matter of weeks. It just like take your take time, and unless let's do this together rather than trying to fix it because we're not gonna fix it right away this I don't believe. that. This gets fixed in my generation. I'm a cynic. I believe we can make it better for the next generation, unless they generally maybe in my lifetime the next generation. Those fees. They have a better starting point. Everything I do is not for me or for US necessarily. Is for my niece. Is for my Godson? So when they're older, they don't have to have the same conversation. They may have some conversations, but not the same conversation, so that's why I'm thinking is critical that we don't. We don't try to fix it today I don't think we'll lose urgency I think. Because you know I'm not saying wait until next year or anything like that. I'm just saying let's just make sure we're. We're taking the right steps. I believe the healing part is critical man I think making certain decisions from a from a hurt, angry or traumatize space can actually make the problem worse. as I think really tending to that. because. The civil rights movement. The work that they put in. Even before it started the work that they put in behind the scenes, the women before king even came on board. The ship was already rolling. And then he comes on board and he's this dynamic personality. But even every step of the way. Every week every month they were strategy. They were meeting praying strategizing. And so if they can do that and and give us a motto then I think we can do the same thing. you know what I'm saying and I agree with you on that. I think what I would like to add at. least highlight is i. think it's an both I. Think the waiting the allows the healing because I think that's I mean that's that's the point we we all agree. That's importing lamenting part of the four hills. You've listened you've got learn. You've got lament you know which is morning many times you. You have people from different sides. They'll have to mourn the the power and the supreme, the white supremacy that they didn't know they were perpetuating. Okay, they how the world was the way they thought the is different, so definitely I think that is. That is a necessary part and process, but more I mean pragmatically I. Am both. That's. Right yeah, we don't want to rush things so that we make a lot. You know unforced errors and so to speak, but at the same time. I think we continue to move in ways, and in if things happen, and they make mistakes, let's not demonize. That's the point that I wanted to. Really highlight is okay if something happens and someone, I mean we see this in administrations all the time. you know you go into the foreseeable care, act right, and this thing rolls out, and it was far from perfect far from perfect. But instead of again, seeing it as a rollout and then identifying what works what doesn't and then changing. Political parties demonized and throw the baby out with the bathwater. We see that happening over and over again from the left to the right right to the left we see in social groups different dynamics. I just keep wanting to advocate. That can't be our approach because like you said rich. The problem is too too complex for us to have lazy logic in this and be stuck in silos so much that we spend more energy defending our point than solving the problem. Another switching gears a little bit another narrative. That's out. There is that this problem is not for black people to solve its for white people to solve. So, what is the role of white America and redressing this other than the you talked about the ells and we need to educate people. We need to appreciate the complexity of this. We need time to heal. We need you know. a longer conversation that isn't bifurcated around political lines. Like how do we? How does how does the white people listening to this? Wrap their heads around how they can be. A most productive member of this movement I think. I I go back and forth because I believe that is voices of color that need to lead. because we feel it. You know this idea. You can't lead me. Someplace, you've never been, or you can't give to me what you've never had a percent. It's preposterous otherwise, so so there's a learning from voices of color but I think. Taking the power and the privilege, and in being a part of helping to reach the white, the broader white community I think right now. That's that's with whether it's in government. Those Congressmen and women using their positions to reach. Them family members on the family level reaching them in corporate incorporations reaching them I think because we can't reach them. Our we can share. We can put pressure on. Can protests we can. We can do all these. We can write books. But they're not gonNA listen to US necessarily. So I think one way, does it? Just one is not the only way this is one one thing is I as you know, white friends. You have to be the voice to reach the people that we're not gonNA. Be Able to reach on all these levels wherever you're influences. That's s one way because. I don't know what else we can do. I I really don't. If you look at literature, you look at music you look at. Movies. You look at marches. We've done it peacefully with done it angrily. We've kneeled with knelt. We've fist in the air. We've used our bodies in ways that that's how we didn't. That's one of the primary resources. We have our bodies. We've done everything we know to do. And we're still here, not just. Incidents but a culture. Right. I think it takes. The white allies or whatever word you want to use for that? To be the voices advocating in solidarity to the white community because. Not GonNA listen to us. Necessarily, not all some will, but the masses won't listen to us. To add to that I. think that's a great point We talk about Dr. Martin Luther King during the civil rights. Movement and we forget about another voice that was even more demonized, but I think was was as equally an integral part in advancing was Malcolm X.. and. Even to this day, you know He. That name is still demonized and and a lot of people when they hear that name there immediately. Fearful because of what he stood for, but what people what is what is less known about him especially in the tail end of his of his movement. and his his his platform, was he. Saw and started to to to bring different nationalities and cultures together. And, he, he shared something that that I think is is important in speaks to your your question. About what do white people do in this in this moment in one thing he he recognized is right now. Of course, everybody's binging net flicks There is a Netflix I. Think it's on on on HBO but the defiant ones. It's It's a four part episode or series on the relationship between Dr Dre and Jimmy Ivine. two moguls in the hip hop were the the music industry and how they come together, and how you know, they're taking over the world with these an apple, not stuff right well interesting, the point that Malcolm X. really tried to highlight that I see illustrated in their relationship is at some point. The Jimmy Wien saw and recognized the talent and the the ability of Dr. Drey and it wasn't a posture of let me reach back and down and pull this guy up. It was never that what it was was. Wait a minute I see and identify in in in in Dr Drey, the same love and passion in raw talent and ability even better than my own. And and I'm going to actually use my mind I in. to nurture and cultivate this guy. That that whole relationship is powerful. We need more of that because here. You had Jimmy Wien. who was already on the in? who himself you know came from modest backgrounds, but then at the height of his power, recognizing someone else and saying let me mentor let me and it wasn't again this back and down. It wasn't charity. He saw how he could make. Money would doctor right I mean and saw that this guy is valuable but but this guy also needs a seat at the table immunity coach. Exactly right, not an in a partnership way, and in a way that's loving, too. Because not not like a spoiler despoiled, whoever wants to watch it, but you saw in the narrative of Dr Dre as life. Mini missteps. That that you know it's like. Wow. He could have blown it up here. He could appear here. He's still had a guy who was like look I'm all in with you because I I! I see the value. So extrapolating on that the message that you're trying to convey. Like distill that down to the point that relates to Malcolm, X., so though the the point, the thank you for actually helped me bring. The point is Malcolm X. recognize the importance of people white people in power. Aligning themselves with black people and sharing the power right, and and not doing it in a way that its charity not doing it in a way that it's. We're deeming as White Guilt But actually taking the time to recognize seeing the humanity, of of another person and In the backdrop of inequality, I'm GonNa ride with this person. Right come hill. Got It one of the Differentiating factors between what's happening now and the civil rights movement of the late nineteen sixties. Is that. There is no Malcolm X. or Martin Luther King. We don't have a singular voice to galvanize the movement around there, but but at the same time there's. A lot of interesting voices out there right now. They're just more dispersed. It's not as centralized as before and I've I've found myself wondering. Would it be better if there was one? person that we're kind of pivoting around I. Mean that doesn't seem to be the reality right now, but maybe one of the things we can kind of. Wine this conversation down with is who are those interesting voices out there people want to broaden their information silo to expose themselves to interesting people of Color. I think of tiny he coats. Listened to him on that on as clients podcasts the other day I was amazing. Yeah I, think I, think he he He's a voice that has to be seriously considered and listened to, but I I don't know if we're ever really go back to that model In our, community, we say every time we have a leader. They kill him. On some level your no, I'm. laughing. I still it's sad but true, but either physically kill them or their their character, their reputation. They'll find a way in that that kills the whole movement because we've put everything around this one central voice, two point, and so when you have multiple voices, and I think it's important you have multiple voices. You have someone who has an expertise in this area. They can bring that to the table. You have someone over here. WHO has an expertise in this area naked? Bring to the table I'm trying to think of My whole libraries is going through my head and everything's because you can't think of anybody now. If you've got maybe guys, email me and I'll put it in the show. Announce William Jennings. Is Phenomenal. He's at the alot June. He's phenomenal He has a book called the Christian imagination. He has a controversial lecture. Is Controversial. If you just look at the titles, call. Can White people be saved? And he's not talking about white people in terms, necessarily ethnicity based on ideology where we talk about white supremacy in people who subscribed to that you even subconsciously, but it breaks down whiteness, and its impact on the whole world from colonialism two now, and he does it the illogically. Jay Cameron? Carter is another theologian. That's brilliant. He was at Duke in is at Indiana University I. Believe so there are a number of voices and many of them. Don't get as much airplay as they should but these these these guys are brilliant I think of Who I think! I shared a name, a female woman. Angelo I love Angela rise. She she's. She's brilliant as well outspoken. I'll send you. Yeah, okay. Yeah, firearm is anyone. Come on, or you know actually. I actually agree with with Phil when you're saying that I think the model has to be slightly different. There needs to be a hybrid model moving forward I. Don't think there will be one person to galvanize and be that one voice, but in this is my my crazy creative side coming out I when. When I look at movements and Oregon and organisms, and how you see, systems operate autonomously but continue to thrive in exist. For example you look at. Let's say again I. if this is crazy, if pull me back in if I go too far, but you look at Paleo. You look at You know the raw you look at movements like you know. Plant strong plant based. There isn't just one person who everyone is following and keeping those movements alive. No, it's IT'S A it's a it's a concept is an ideal, not ideology, but it is a framework by which people in by themselves can take ownership of and then create a lifestyle around it and they in in in doing that they can augment that with resources from other voices so there any their their education or their thirst for knowledge mastery is what drives the movement. With them, and then you have that happening collectively among thousands and millions of people, and that's what allows a movement to exist, I. Truly believe that is what's going to have to take place in this. Is that at some point at the fundamental personal level? Everyone's going to have to say this is going to become a lifestyle for me. And then as I come up against blocks or roadblocks confusion. That's when I'm going to reach out and I'M GONNA. Listen to voices that I think are credible, and then I'm GonNa take like my old pastor used to say you know. He's taking advice like eating chicken. He's as you eat the meat. Throw the bones away. You know, and that's GonNa Funny, but but that's that's I think the mentality that we have to have. We have to say I'M GONNA. Take personal ownership of it and I'm GONNA. Live it out regardless of what other people think and say or do, and I'm going to purposely orient my life where I'm going to keep educating myself in this lifestyle in this way of life, so that I'm better at it, and then ultimately I'm blessing and impacting in a positive way. The lives around me beautifully put man. Put. Well! I think we should. Put a pin and I think we covered a lot of ground. I do want to point out that a good place for people to start especially, if you WANNA, learn more about is to read your your recent blog post. This is America I thought that was super powerful. And you and you basically you. Once again, not mincing words like you just break down this whole situation in a way that I think is is powerful, but also digestible for anybody to read so any final thoughts before we enter today. When I wanted to I. I love you rich year your brother from another mother we. Say! Part and for allowing us on the podcast in just again, having this conversation in just seeing you and your heart, and the the steadfastness of the mission. You're on with the platform. You've been given that you're blessed to cultivate Thank you, thank you because I think that this. These are the sorts of things that need to happen. I appreciate it consistently. Yeah, thanks, man I'm just you know. I'm doing. This is imperfectly as anybody and trying to learn as I go like I'm doing this for my own personal edification as much for for anything else in you know, it's incumbent upon me, just like it is for everybody else to try to be as open, minded to humble ourselves and and to And to you know, broaden our aperture on all of this. I. Really appreciate you guys coming here today and sharing openly and honestly from the heart, your experience and your perspective. Then I hope you guys come back and. Talk to me a little bit more. Appreciate being here, this was this was good. Good for me, you say What can white people do I? Think you're doing it. you sharing the at the table or sitting at an actual table but it feels like a partnership in this conversation. You know what I mean. I think that's important Yep thanks appreciate that. all right so if you're digging on these guys the best way to track them down and find them Phil Allen Junior on twitter and facebook and instagram and Phil, Phil Allen Junior Dot com well right and Byron Byron DOT CC Yeah Byron. Thanks. You guys. I appreciate it and I hope that you continue your advocacy. Thank you, thank you all right piece. So that happened, we did that. To go down for you I wasn't. Her you feel like. You let it sink in. You guys. Let it steep people. Please check out. The show notes on the episode page where I have a numerous. A large catalog of resources, articles, books, films and nonprofits related to today's discussion. Out Phil's documentary, open wounds, it's on video on demand and his spoken word poetry on Youtube and let these gentlemen know how this coversation landed for you. You can do that on the socials. You can find Byron at Byron. Davis one on INSTAGRAM AND FILL IS AT PHIL ALAN JR I. G on Instagram and at Phil Allen Jr on twitter. If you'd like to support the work, we. We do here on the show, then rate and comment on it on apple podcasts, spotify and Youtube subscribe on Youtube. You guys share the show or your favorite episodes with friends are on social media, and you can support us on Patriot at ritual dot com slash donate thanks to everybody who I'll put on today's show Jason. Cami Yellow for audio engineering production show notes an interstitial music. Curtis for videoing today show and creating all the clips we share on social media. Jessica Miranda Graphics Alli Rogers for portraits Georgia Whaley for copyrighting decay for advertise relationships in D. Music by tyler by Trapper Pyatt and hurry mathis by the way. Tyler is working on some new music. We might even have a new intro theme song. Oh. My God I know that makes people really scared, but I think it might be time to try something new tyler working on some cool stuff so I hope to share that with you in the coming weeks in the meantime. Thank you for the love you guys I. Appreciate You. I will see you back here in a couple of days. When is actually next week? This is the only episode this week, so. See back here next week with another amazing episode, and until then may the wisdom of today's conversation sink in. And may we all step into becoming our best? Version of an all season love warrior. Piece plants.

Byron Davis America Pastor Phil Allen Junior murder George Floyd Russell COPS USA Dr King Birch African American community consultant Ucla Phil Allen Santa Clarita California Phil You grappling Emmett Iran
Knox Robinson on The Divided States of America

The Rich Roll Podcast

2:13:38 hr | 1 year ago

Knox Robinson on The Divided States of America

"This is our chance to see beyond speeches. The politicians are making. This is her chance to to to think a little bit beyond what? Are mainstream media telling us, and what does it mean for us? And Strangely on this opportunity has been a recent on so many levels, but it's been a recent on like my mindfulness practice, and going back to the beginnings of that, and then just thinking about the ways in which. A mindfulness practice helps us. Just think of things more clearly. Taking? Pause and thinking how other people might feel. Is Not only one of the calls to action for this moment that hopefully will go forward, but I think that that's like the work we need to do now. So you know really think. How do I make space for people? How do I make other people feel comfortable. Like how do we create? A more just space in our communities. That's Knox Robinson. And this is the role podcast. Role podcast. What is a people ritual here? Welcome to the PODCAST. Okay so. As we find ourselves amidst a global pandemic and the most powerful civil rights movement of my lifetime. Despite our differences, which concerning really seemed to be expanding. I think we can nonetheless all agree that this moment how we respond to it how we navigate through it how we grow from it how we educate ourselves because of it. Will indelibly shaped the economic, the political and the social fabric of our country for many years to come? Hopefully for the better. And so to help us. Untangle the rhetoric behind the supercharge division. We are experiencing. Irish out to my friend Knox Robinson, who traveled all the way from? Mexico God bless him to. Share his perspective with me and all of you guys today, which is pretty, awesome? Returning for a second appearance on the show is I was two years ago. Episode, three, Ninety, four, one of my all time. Favorites I should mention I. urge all of you to check it out if you missed it. The first time around Knox is a writer. He's an athlete. He's accomplished, national caliber runner, an upon US curator of said, running culture and an astute student of black history art, literature, music, and poetry, and it's an education that formerly began for Knox with his tutelage under my Angelo at Wake Forest University. and has continued throughout the many chapters of his life as a spoken word artist as a music manager as editor in chief, a fader magazine, and recently as Co founder and captain of black roses, nyc, a diverse collective of running enthusiasts who routinely gathered a hammer out intervals across Brooklyn in downtown, Manhattan. A moving emblem. Of New York City's running street Culture Knox is among the most interesting and multifaceted humans I've ever met someone for whom urban culture is lifeblood, and I think an important voice in and perspective on this moment that America is currently experiencing as usual I've got a few more important things to mention about Knox and the conversation to come but I I am so delighted that today's episode is brought to you by company that both Knox and I are proud to represent Jaber the people behind the best audio experience wireless headphones for the active minded on the planet. Period, and I'm not sure what else there is to say, but I guess I'll say this if you're looking for ear buds that sound amazing that are durable, that can endure all your outdoor adventures with military grade rigor, then look no further than Jaybird, and in particular their latest release, the Vista Earth Proof Jaybird I true wireless headphone that meets Ip seven and M. I l.. eighty-one ten G standards I. Can't say I know what those letters and numbers stand for exactly other than that it sounds impressive and that these things hold up no matter what you throw at them, so if you find yourself in a desert, sandstorm or sinking into quicksand, you're running headfirst into a hurricane you. My friends can safely and confidently continue to listen to this very podcast in high quality stereo without interruption knocks night both been working with Jaybird for awhile at this point. In fact, the last time I saw Knox prior to this podcast was in Montana because Jaybird put together this amazing retreat in glacier. National Park for. A really cool interesting group of athletes as part of their Vista Earbud launch, and it was just a fun weekend of trail running rafting yoga meditation great food that Julie Helped. Put together. She created the menu conversation community, and it was all hosted emceed by knocks himself. And included a variety of friends and friends of the podcast like Sunday Wall to me Olsen Gwen Jorgensen. That's where I met her and recorded that podcast. Billy Yang who made a great video about the weekend called Montana the window seat which you can find on billy's youtube channels pretty cool anyway tangent. I guess my point is that I love this company and once I experienced their. Their headphones I, really just can't imagine using any other brand or just best to learn more about Jaybird why earth proof is the New Standard Visit Jaybird Sport Dot Com and use my code rich role twenty at checkout for twenty percent off Jaybird, Vista wireless ear buds. That's twenty percent off your new favourite. This headphones at Jaybird Sport Dot Com Promo Code ritual twenty at checkout. Russell brought to you today by Athletic Greens. We all have different goals. Diversity my friends. Maybe you're looking to PR marathon for others. 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Pick your favorite four styles and they'll send. Send your home. Try on Kit. Pick your faith at your prescription and send the kid back with the prepaid shipping label, and you're done right now. Rocca has a special offer for my listeners. Take twenty percent off your order. When you go to roka dot com slash recall. That's our okay. A DOT com slash rich role to get twenty percents off your order of killer, shades, prescription, eyewear, or something in between. Okay, we did it. Thanks for sticking with me. I'm super grateful to our sponsors. Makes this show possible so I appreciate it. Today's exchange is not only a check in with Knox. Who as I mentioned is currently residing in Mexico City. It's also an investigation into the culture shifts caused by the pandemic and protests alike it's about virtue, signaling and perform ally ship, and why reading white fragility simply isn't enough. It's a deep dive into Black America representation in athletics. But more than anything this is about. The poetics of running running as a metaphor running as an act of rebellion and the disturbing symbolism behind on at Arby's murder. I left this exchange better for having, had it? I really appreciate Knox's perspective. This one is special I think you guys are going to really dig it so without further ado. Knox Robinson everyone. Knocks delighted to have you here. Thank you for travelling many miles to be with. ME, today, sure of course so you've been holed up in Mexico. City, for what like nine weeks or something like that? Yeah it's it's felt like obviously considering everything that's felt like a lifetime so. Yeah, I've been out there for three months. Maybe a little over three months been wild. Yeah, I thought originally that you were down there. For some kind of you know event or professional reason, but that's not the case right like you went there when things started to get hairy in New York and kind of escaped. Yeah, purposefully, yeah, exactly I had been kind of watching the news since the end of last year. You're just kind of is A. Vague, conspiracy theories are always just kind of seeing you know or an engaged citizen. You're kind of just seeing the chatter and focus on things, and just started to spiral out, of control. I was just thinking about on a couple levels like. The practicalities of my own personal life I, have a small daughter, and if the school shut down my son, he's sixteen. What was that going to be like? And then you know? What would the social situation in New York on infrastructural level so I was thinking about that, and then also wants you just started matching up the lack of cohesion from the national state and local level in New York. The triumvirate of of a trump cuomo and and the BLASIO. It was gonNA. Fly is like why Mexico City. Though why not I mean Mexico City is such an incredible place. I've been spending so much time there more and more. And, in addition to being like empirically conditions, eight thousand feet, altitude or seventy, seven hundred feet, altitude, a rich culture and history. It just seemed livable. Right you know, and so. I went down there with with my partner and our daughter and and Have Stayed, right? She's like three right. Yeah! I've only been in Mexico City wants. It was for a runner's world event. It was it took place at. A college campus that's in that newer part of town I don't know what it's called where there's like lots of fancy skyscrapers and things like that and my only experience with the older part of the city was just touring. You know very quickly over the course of an afternoon, but that's kind of where you're living right like you're living right in the center. Yeah, well I'm living in in Clay Kahn, which is You know an an incredibly cultural rich neighborhood because that's where like Frida. Kahlo and Rivera had lived and had their studio It's interesting. There's a big though the Whitney Museum had a huge show about Mexican mural. ISTS right before the pandemic close things and. One of Rivera's contemporaries Jose Clemente Orozco was was also including in the show I'm staying at his place Oh. Wow, so you know. My daughter's sleeping on this bed underneath lake sketches and it's. Art And history except she's three. So yeah, but the Osmosis of that well. Yeah, but the result is. She's been like devastating the. Historic building with crayons like the table the other day and there's a whole under his mural sketches like a huge rural. Of with her cranium, ruining this historic building I haven't owner yet, but when I move out like the bill is going to be in respect like the young mind, though with no with no reverence for the legacy that precedes it. Yeah, gasoline! Her imprint sounds cool I mean. Was She could've been an accountant and just like with an abacus. They're doing something less impact when it comes to time to get the security deposit back rap on that. What is Mexico City's response to the pandemic Ben like? How does that compare it to what's going on in America? Yeah, I mean it's been. It's been obviously it's been called out in in major media as problematic but again our news sources are mainstream media is a new sources. Aren't necessarily trustworthy, and so the presidential spot, the the head of state response from from Anglo On down. Has Been a little sketchy, but I I was reading kind of some some information when I went down there for the first time, and he was just kind of saying and the response like we know that like humans aren't gonna be able to social distance like Ad Infinitum. There's going to be like a capacity and once-banned with his exceeded. People are just GONNA rebel against whatever stricture so. They were playing Matt Heavy Calculus of waiting for. Things to peak and crest, and then apply like heavy social distancing, whether whereas like another method be imposed social distancing early on up more prophylactically. Yeah, exactly, but again that comes with. You know in cultures where they may not even have the same concepts of social liberty. On what our civil liberties rather a in terms of Mexican of joy of living the social liberties. Are Pretty Chill so I think he was just saying like listen. This is Mexico we have a huge. Day Labor, force and Public Transport. Mass- popular moving around, but also people are chill, so they didn't really going for like social distancing strictures, and now's you see. Whether it's like New York or Arizona. Once people kind of like or over it. They're over it. I think that even today you. We may be on the wrong side history with this conversation, but even this moment the kind of like. You know understanding of those things has been. Has Been Shift I personally I've been in lockdown. My partner is definitely like by the book social distancing, so we haven't been kind of like flaunting any conventions and stuff right, definitely been tortured with a three year. Old I. Think I think we're not going to be able to really be able to evaluate properly. which protocol and strategy was was best. You know for another eighteen to twenty four months. This is just a huge experiment in progress, and we're seeing different cities. You know, apply different. now we're seeing the spikes as a result of the you know the all the protesting and all of that you know we're comparing that to the way, things are being done in Sweden and the goalpost is continued to move and the information that we're getting from supposedly you know vetted sources continues to change and I think it creates a lot of confusion, and you bought that up against people just getting fatigued of staying at home, and they're like fuck it you know and with the protests. It's sort of like the floodgates opened, and now it's very hard to go back. We're like well. We kind of did that. Yeah, like we're out in the world now you know I've noticed in my own behavior. Just you know. I picked you up at the hotel. We hugged. And did a an antibody test just before the podcast were both negative, but I wouldn't I probably wouldn't have done that like two weeks ago. Sitting here. And and who knows what's right or wrong like? We're all just figuring out as we go. This is just like a huge petri dish. You know motion at the moment. and. It's interesting that he shows Mexico's like I'm GonNa Leave New York and I'm going to go to the most population density in the world. Right for the pandemic. Interesting choice yeah. I mean I guess if anything that just shows you? How dire like my own break on a prescription for was going to be I mean I definitely, but I can't see you being able to exist anywhere for any long period of time without some significant urban culture, because that's your life blood, but yeah, you gotTA. You gotta carry it around with you so I'm definitely like. You know trapping out a little bit. I mean when I think about the things. That I wish I would have brought with me when I ran out with like a Duffel bag I did bring like the USB speaker, so it's just been if anything an incredible time to go back and dig into so much culture. Dig into so much music and. Go back to like all the things that. You know you weren't really able to to to unlock in the fast paced life that we're living up until very recently. Yeah, you know. This is this moment of forced repose where we're all being given an opportunity to take inventory of our lives. What's working? What's not and I? Myself have been trying to take advantage of that like the idea that we're just GonNa return to normal I think would be tragic like he has this moment where we can really think more deeply and more profoundly about what we want. Our lives in culture and society to look like layered on top of that with everything that we're going to get into. You makes this all the more exigent in terms of. Evaluating our systems and our individual behavior for sure, so let's get into it I. Mean I think you know as I was thinking about having you on? I thought man you know. Everything that's happening across America right now is so. you know relevant to Knox's vortex of interest must be. Weird for you to be in Mexico City and be more of an observer of what's happening rather than a participant. Because you've been talking about this stuff your whole life right now here we are in this unprecedented historic moment, and you're in a completely different country. Yeah I mean definitely. That that double consciousness of being a black American, that happens all the time as as you know. Michelle Obama said. Barack Obama can get killed going to the gas station so although I definitely been thinking about all these ideas and living through these ideas, my whole life and experiencing sort of these these. Kind of Cultural waves my whole life for the same time I was thinking about like what the actual social situation was going to be like in lockdown in New York a black man in America and that's when I was like. I I'm not here for that because I know me going down the street. That's just like. That's just too dicey. If you got caught out and there's a curfew, you being black man just puts you at a greater risk, and I'm just not just not like I'm not a I'm not a stay at home black man. A. Break that rule. Just saying you know that it's just not going to going to be going to be that so I was like. Let me take myself out of that situation before I. Find Myself in that situation. And again none of us knew that the world was going like spiral in this way but I. It's been amazing to see it from a distance, and then also you think about the interaction with. Mexican culture in Black American culture over five hundred years at super fascinating so for me. I mean I'm thinking about like John Carlos and Tommie Smith every day. I'm thinking about Mexico, city nineteen sixty Olympics every day. You know so if we're thinking about. Colin Kaepernick and thinking about Minneapolis. Then also thinking about you know the events of nineteen sixty eight in Mexico. Yeah, it is interesting how this is brought that into the forefront of consciousness again and we're seeing those images of those guys and we're having discussions about you know what happened to them in the wake of raising their fists on the podium shirt in sixty eight, and how their lives really were never the same after that sure, but it's also interesting. Though is how they got to that point, you know and I really been profoundly affected by this book called the revolt of the Black Athlete by Dr Harry Edwards. It's incredible, but he was. The architect that worked with students organizing and the early in the mid sixties. Around San Jose state I guess, and these are the athletes that. Ended up on the Olympic team. You know this is the guy who has been in Phoenix. Aaron, really kind of like. Given him a lot of a lot of the political support for his kneeling protests, and and also I guess it was the University of Minnesota football team that had a boycott of protest just several years ago. So this one individual has been kind of like. situating. Black American athletics and athletes in the context of political realities for since the mid sixties. When did he write that book? In the their sixties? In No, I think it might have been reflection on the events of of sixty eight, and then he's needed to update it to A new edition came out in the past year. So let super fascinating. It's kind of getting second buzz now, because if you saw that soderbergh film high flying bird dead. So that's the that's the the thing that's going through in the Manila envelope. It's that book that's the book is reading at the end the revolt of the black athletes. saw that film that was incredible. SODERBERGH film that all on a phone found on the whole thing he'd been out of the game he was not. He didn't get enough credit for that movie. That movie came out right now. Yeah, I mean yeah, and it just just came out, I mean so yeah. Everybody goes that film because it's super incredible, and then you had the book that is revealed at the end is the revolt of the black. Entree standards yet. Meanwhile how to be an anti-racist I is number one in the New York Times bestseller lists. The whole bestseller lists is like white fragility books. I know change right, or some other part by you know a genuine desire to learn and expand our awareness. I think and also fueled in part by White Guilt I. I'm glad you said. Certain things that you can say that. I can't because I. I read that and I was like man. Why people sure love to buy books that they don't ever read? Yeah, because I was like the whole list was like white fragility and I was like. It's funny like. Black folks like we we have. We see White folks right I may be invisible I may be the invisible man, but like black folks have always had. especially with that hair. Save those. No, but it's funny to like. Go onto. Not Message Boards those are scary, but even in the comments section on social media on instagram. NC White people talking to each other. It's like real comedy. Horn yeah and just to re like comments with each other are real crazy so. The amount of performance. going. White people when like a white person post the fragility book, the comments are like I got that book. I can't wait to start at this Saturday. Like wow, every white person is about to examine their fragility every future Saturday. It's a weird thing that I. Think is new for a lot of white people that you guys have been living in forever. There's a lot of performance virtue signaling out there for sure. But, also tremendous amount of of white fragility I. This is new to me. I posted, I did I did a podcast? Put up a couple days ago with my friend Adam Skolnick who's white Jewish guy, and it was more of just a discussion about what's going on right now. and I posted a clip from that on Instagram, and has like three hundred and ninety comments and scrolling through that was was an awakening. Awakening. All over the map. My friend. Dom Thompson. A black dude friend of mine was he chimed him. He's like man. There's so much white fragility in this comment section. And then he got like forty one comments underneath. Right off that and yet. On the site like man and everything. A lot of. Rage a lot of cheerleading like all over the place, and it was very disorienting for me as somebody who doesn't court controversy and somebody who feels like I'm I'm talking common sense to realize that we really are divided as a country and there's a there's a plethora of perspectives on this issue, and it's also supercharged at the moment that makes me afraid of our ability to move forward we can talk about. Them. You know as we get into this, but you know that's been an education for me and I think as a as a white dude like trying to figure out how to communicate around. This is tricky to. We were talking about this on the on the right over here like. Knowing like feeling strongly that I don't WanNa be silent and I want to be part of positive change also being sensitive that it's really not my place to to. Lead the charge at all. I WANNA participate, but also being very conscious that this is not my movement, but also conscious that that. This is a problem that whites need to solve like black people are fine. You know it's like it's the people that have to figure this shit out here and that was what the clip was about. It's like the white problem. Inflammatory for I like. How do you think about this like? Help me out here because? I still like laughing about the. I'm still laughing about the white fragility reading guests. Maybe. Maybe. It's just that like if you said like black people have always known it and I'm looking at all these others who are writing the book. That's why telling people about why fragility. That's the one thing we have on and it was. Like I don't know. But it's it's disorienting. All the way around in in this moment that's that's for sure. I mean on one hand. It's a white problem but it's all. It's our common culture. Shirl, if we all in our country, so you know whether we're thinking about. These divided states of America or overthinking Abou-. WHAT OUR CULTURE! Our culture means on a numeral way you in the course of human history over the past. Four hundred one years and then. then. Yeah, we all do have a stake in it. Yeah, and what's what's weird about the tension about or so divided? It's like. It's weird. How evenly divided even though there's all these subcultures in there may be minorities or whatever? It's really. Electorally split like fifty, three, forty, seven, fifty, one, forty, nine on Indian given day like on so many issues right, you know and that. kind of push me pull. You is is really what it feels like a battle for hearts and minds, and really I think what we're we're. We're seeing like play out in real time in the comments, section I mean it's funny right now. On social media's not even the content you post no offense to you. Contents great, but like it's really the the works in the comments. About where you break out the. Brands are like. That's going on. IS SPONSOR SPONSOR COMMENTS? Just to be clear, so so there's this false dichotomy. This this. Rift like people people say black lives matter, and then you have a contingent of people say all lives matter I think we're getting better at understanding. That you know. What. That's all about but to say. Is it, is it? Is it analogous or not to say? This is a white problem. Versus this is a human problem. Are Those two things like black lives matter? All lives matter white problem problem of humanity. Like how do those things lineup well? These are all like tags right? These are all like linguistic cues that kind of redirect the listener's attention, so their dog whistles right in their respective way. Yeah, right and not necessarily you know laden with the image, the energy of dog whistles that say the president, uses. But in terms of the frequency that certain people pick up. It's definitely a valid idea so when you're thinking about what might constitute a white problem I mean. You know! White people got a problem everybody. But it redirecting the attention to white people to own it or to have ownership of it. And to again work at solving at work on dismantling the problem. That's like an interesting redirect. That's a crucial redirect you know. Like in an empathetic, you obviously like black people's problems. Everybody's problem but. The way. The way it's set up you if you if you kind of like. A? Personalized that just a black folks. Then you're going to lose out on a lot of people feeling invested in or having any agency. I mean that's that's what's weird I mean. Whether like. Whether there's like Social Justice, warriors or people who are like recalcitrant and don't really like engage with these issues at all There has been like a real like neck snapping Lee Swift Realization feels like on on the part of a lot of white people to like. Jump into this head on you know what I mean, and it might be because that wrongheaded, or even if it's well intentioned or no, I mean no. I mean well intentioned like this point. We're taking it. You know what I mean but like. How are we challenging? Sure and channeling it in in a way that's kind of like. You know. Moving moving forward you know like. Everybody loves moon shots you know. But Moon shots don't really exist right. It's really the progress of incremental gains. Marginal Gains that really. Brings, US progress, but this situation right here might be one of those once in a lifetime moon shots. Yeah, you know where people really being accelerated through so much you know there is that sense that we have an opening now that we haven't seen in our lifetime. Yeah, and I think it would be tragic if we weren't able to figure out you know how to put that. into the right avenue to make those changes and I think part of it is. Is You know my learning curve here has been really trying to understand the systemic aspect of this. I went in. Re watched thirteenth the other night with my family, and just so powerful like it it really. CONCEPTUALIZES! Analyzes the systemic nature of this in a way that makes it. Impossible to avert your glance right when you look at Alex and the. And the way that the prison infrastructure is set up and the lobbying efforts and our whole political system being geared towards You know these tectonic plates moving such that black people are disproportionately incarcerated and penalized. It's impossible to not understand that we need. Ground up change like really fundamental systemic changes in how we're operating. And that has to. That has to be a conversation. I mean like there's you know it's great to have an electoral focus, but that process is fraught. As as the last presidential several presidential elections has has shown but also you know there needs to be community conversation you know rather than these things are hot button issues that are going to get resolved at a city council zoom meeting. You know there needs to be sort of like. A real simpatico energy where everybody is sort of conversant in these ideas for starters. You know but I feel like that's happening. Yeah Yeah. So then what's the next step? Like how do we? We're having the conversation? Yeah? Yeah I mean so. We're having the conversation and you know. It's wild. I mean it's already. Things are so accelerated that. Right now like downtown Seattle is like an autonomous. And you know people are on flat bottom boats on like Havasu just doing donuts right living their life so. The next step. Is remains to be seen, but I've really. Kind of surprisingly just going back to two older models and finding those are really resonating, so you know. It's interesting to think about by older. What do you mean by? Interesting to see what what people are saying in the sixties and seventies you know and we've Kinda glamorized these figures and made them into posters and t shirts and bio-pics, but going back, and what were the panthers talking about? Going back and really looking like. What was the social flux of the sixties and seventies trying to push forward and those things? How do they get lost in the late seventies and eighties? And what all those four? So you know there are some new models of of being right now, but I think that there's also a lot to kind of. Uncover and rediscover in what was kind of set down a couple generations ago. Yeah, that was the other thing about thirteen that made me made me realize that there's quite a bit of revisionist history when it comes to the Panthers and Angela Davis and Malcolm X. Even Martin Luther King Short. We're taught in school or led to believe and understand isn't quite. The reality of how that all went down? Yeah, I mean, and why not right I mean if if we were choosing between Barack Obama. And a guy who, in nineteen, eighty, two, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, three voted against. The establishment of Martin Luther King Junior as a holiday when he was senator of Arizona. That was just. A couple of decades ago and rest in peace John. John McCain but. it. It really is interesting that we don't even have a clear picture of king, and he's like got a statue in Stamps. I mean so definitely understanding King's legacy and Malcolm X's legacy and the legacy of the panthers I mean. It's amazing to see Angela, Davis active. Right I'm looking on instagram and she's like. Every other. Everywhere I was like insists hydrate. She's probably two thousand. Thirteenth when she comes into the courtroom, her big Afro like it's just it's so powerful. You know yeah I, mean really and you know. Maybe I'll keep redirecting the comma to talk about people's reading list, but you just have like a reading list of the women. Like. Women in the early seventies, black women in the early seventies who are coming out of the Panther Movement you know what I mean, so you know, we know, Angela, Davis but I mean Assata. Shakur's autobiography is essential reading. Elaine Brown. Erica Huggins like all these Kathleen cleaver all these. Incredibly storied women and had wildly rich lives whether you know they were. Political actors or militants or you know freedom fighters who who are still around today super fascinating, so we could just reset the whole. New, York Times list right now like Assad satisfy top. We'll give me a reading list. I'll put it in. The show notes okay for. When you were first on the podcast that was like a couple years ago two years ago. we went through your your whole story and people who are new to the show I encourage you to go back and listen to that I. thought that was a really great conversation, but one of the one of the seminal moments in your life was being a student under my Angelo and you told these beautiful stories about what that experience was like. I'm curious I would suspect that you know her words in her kind of. Mentorship is too strong a word, but her presence in your life must. Be percolating to the surface right now. Yeah Yeah. I think about it all the time. and she was such. A heavy presence that. Our I wish it was different. which like you came she enters. You can't choose your mentors, you know. You wish he'd show up for that dinner at her house Gosh I mean. I just you know it's interesting to think that. She gave the inaugural poem at the First Clinton inauguration, so like whatever feelings about the Clinton Presidency to think that Dr Angelo was. This presence on the National Mall that cold morning in January of I guess. Ninety three. I mean I remember reading that poem on the pulse of morning, as a high school student and I. Guess at that time I thought I was going to. Study at Wake Forest University I wasn't really putting the pieces together, and so now even that poem on the pulse of morning kind of gone back and started to unpack it, and it is very like these identity politics and diversity and bringing people together. And if you have any sort of like hand-wringing, ambivalence about that now, Maybe. It's just the result of how hardened we've become recently and how bitter and Sour we've been. We've we've been come. You know if we're kind of reading these things and you're like. What is she talking about? Maybe it's actually you know worthy of a second look. Because really Dr Answer, the was just. A vessel of so many experiences in so many voices you know I was reflecting recently talking to somebody about it. And they say John Milton was the last person to have ever read anything on the planet I mean we. have. Read everything. Yeah, everything that had been written and you know I'm like. You were in the libraries of Timbuktu you. But you know as far as a white guy he had read. What white people have put down. How big it? That's what Dr Angela was like though she was just like carried within her, I guess as the season goes multitudes, you know. As Wordsworth would say like you know, she really had that, and it was just like spilling out of her ideally. At a at every occasion, so yeah, I'm definitely thinking about her and her legacy. At this at this time, yeah! Who are the? Poets Right now that you think are speaking to culture in a profound way. Honestly, cortines an amazing time to to reflect on that and you know there's this poet. I'm a writer. You know so. You're envious of other writers. But but. Those are just my own appetites. There's this person Dane Smith who. Has Written this incredible book called Homey I. Been I as I was leaving the house from Brooklyn to go to Mexico City took. Four or five books with me, and this writer is not only putting down some really lacerating poetry early on in their career, but. There in Minneapolis like Minneapolis and so Dane Smith is like walking around Minneapolis Kinda like document on Day. One I was like. Wait my favorite poet like the most essential poet. You know working right now is on the ground with a mask on documenting and like getting resources out to people and so. That's the kind of. Responsibility that I think if artists and writers do have any responsibility at all I. think that's sort of what my vein is when you're kind of looking at. Riders kind of coming out of a Latin, American tradition or like a black American tradition. It's not just I'm graduating from MFA program, and I'm like reading my carefully sculpted versus over here and Mike Garrett Department at an artists colony, but you know I'm an Omnivore and I'm working on poetry and essays and book reviews and. I mean. We know Langston. Hughes is a poet, but if you think about the buddy flick of Langston, Hughes and Zora Neale, hurston driving around the American south. Writing Stories of regular people's lives and filing dispatches to gazettes back up in the north. That's kind of. You know that's that's a. that's the work of a writer and so to think that an incredible. Poet is there active on the ground kind of documenting the the the wildness in Minneapolis is. Yeah as a writer yourself. If you've been putting your thoughts down like, how are you approaching this as a creative person, yeah? It's it's. It's tough because you really want to open your aperture like. As wide as you can, and just record everything and remember everything you know I guess almost in the way that you think like the earliest cameras operated before before it was like a microchip thing, if you kind of just think about the actual crude mechanics of a light box, capturing an image in preserving on film or paper you know is is sort of like what the work of a writer is But? Especially in the wake of the moderate killing is. Is Rather poignantly reset for me my own relationship with writing my own responsibility with writing. And, so yeah, I really been. Doing personal work thinking about. the murder of a motto. Specifically as a runner that was. So impactful to to so many of us obviously in running culture, but obviously around the world but. The add something I can't shake, and so I've been doing a lot of writing. Poetry actually or just riding around that to think long term like what what what I have to share and contribute that would. Sort of. Connect with. That guy's life. Well? Let's talk about Ahmad I mean that one is of particular. You know pertinence because you're runner, right? I read this article that was in runner's world recently where you were quoted and you said in some ways I can't escape the sense that Ahmad Aubrey was killed because he was running, because he was that literal embodiment of our freedom. That's obviously still so threatening to many people in this country. Yeah, I mean. I love to be wrong. I'll love to. Meditate that idea way or like age that idea, way or right? Away by. I. I can't shake it and. You know. Sit Back and watch this trial these trials and see what happens over the course of due process, but. I just can't stop thinking about. The dramaturge or the the theatrical staging of? Of those last minutes. You know and I think what it was when the video first came out. Obviously. It's devastating to watch. But You know. The work is to expand your aperture. So like how much can you take in? How much can you hold? You know it's not just about Milton. Dr Angela arena bunch of books. But like how much can you actually hold? And I've been I've been black. My whole life right so and I. Well familiar with extrajudicial killings of black American men in the United States. I was a runner and. I can't I can't get over? The way, his body moved as a runner on that film. In the last moments that something that like I think. Every runner relates to right. If you have a body or a runner? And, so if you're a runner than you're relating to a model because. It just looked like. It just looked like he was trying to like. Continue running. You know we were going down the sidewalk and like someone's not paying attention with their Dotson, or you know or someone's veering, and you're Kinda like your phone. Doesn't like that. I just can't stop replaying that image of him just. At the those last moments, when he just goes to the right I just do away his hips, and the knees and I was like. Wow, that's my body, you know. and. I'm kind of been. Exploring, that and riding around that and then kind of thinking about. Starting there, and then moving out to to think about the messages that is his life, and his legacy kind of hold for us. Yeah. I've said this before, but you know as a runner myself I've run in. You know tons of cities all over the world never once. Has It ever occurred to me that I might be in jeopardy or that? My life by might be threatened by strapping a pair of running shoes, and leading whatever hotel I'm in to go explore a city. I've never been before but you know. As Black American and as a runner, also somebody who's incredibly well traveled. You've been all over the world you get to. You have this incredible life where you get to spread the culture of running wherever you go like I don't know how that works. Cool talking. You know. Obviously you have a different relationship to that. That is something you have to think about so. Help me. Understand the psychology of that like when you're going out to run like what goes through your mind, and you know what you have to do to make sure that you're safe. Like what is that experience? That's relatable to. You know every black American. Who wants to? Go Run, yeah I mean it's. It's actually it's. It's actually super complicated because you know we're in the running boom, so a lot of people are getting into running now, and so in addition to all the other challenges of getting into running your body rebelling against you. Where do you go like? How do you do it like the most simple thing that we have in the? The human toolkit, but like get started but I've been talking to like a lot of brothers, a lot of brothers and sisters who have been doing it. Our whole lives are like whoever school age athletes and I think. A lot of US actually have like a different relationship with it, then it's been reported in the media and I think that a lot of us. Are So proud to be runners or so proud to do it that it's such like An inviolable piece of our identity that. When we go out to run, it's it's like. It's like such a symbol of pride. You know, it feels. Like. An example like a physical example of black excellence. I mean the way you feel in, you know. The way you feel when you have a good run. Yeah I think for a lot of his actually tied to feel good to be black, or like kind of residing in in these bodies that we're blessed with so I don't i. don't have a fraught relationship with. Going out for a run I mean. Are there sort of? I mean obviously I can give you like a litany of racist experiences. I've. Read like well. If you're going to do that, then you should wear a t shirt with a university on it or something some some signal talk. A little running hard. Line up excuses, but if leg put on Ivy League to go for a run I might take up ceramics, or like some other kinds of about that. No, no, no, no, no, I mean I and you put the black roses stuff on. Yeah, yeah! I mean if I really got flash on it but I honestly think that That in recent years. As I've. Thought more about why it is Iran, or what it means, or what does the experience? I've come to understand. That like. You know honestly the the black body moving through space is such a wild image to people, and when you're a kid, try not to get from the track team. If you're trying to like not finished last in the two mile, you ain't thinking about. You're thinking about like you. Don't WanNA. Let Down Giancarlo Tommy Smith. On the two mile like I can't finish last, because then what would Edwin Moses Think But. Now I'm thinking about and I just see that like the reactions that people have when I run by whether I'm in Brooklyn in bed Stuy. If I'm in a black neighborhood or if I'm in. A white neighborhood or or in a different country. Just I feel that the image of like a black man. Running. Is. One of the most. Sudden and visually arresting images that people might be confronted with. That's not my idea. That's just what I'm seeing and experiencing you know and. Why is that triggering wire like people almost hitting their car I? Mean this is like if you run if you training. If you're a hundred miles a week. That's a lot of people you pass a lot of. People and so there's a constant sort of like stop and stare, and sometimes in your vanity, you know. Someone's checking you out then you feel and. Look like that around like. Okay take. I'm going to cross the street. Yeah, well. Yeah. I mean you know when you're fit? Faster than them. So what's weird? Sorry interrupted like what's weird. Is that you know look? Running is dominated by by blacks and African Americans across the board from the hundred meters all the way up. At the highest level at the level, and historically it's rooted in black culture and African culture, but in America it's sort of this white thing, right, which is a a strain. It's like you know we think of it. We don't think of it in terms of its in central routes. I mean it's elite level. Yeah, and I think that you know. Lately I've just found embarrassing like an old. Crotchety Marxist or something like that, but I think in terms of like a late capitalist critique of what happened in in the running boom, coming out of the seventies and eighties. You know it really was running popular. Down to this idea of like. This is something that rich white guys do and so. I. Have to keep resetting because a lot of is. Don't even think that like talked to brothers around the way and we're like this is like what I do. This is cool, so we joked. On our I kind of conversation together I just grew up that way. Not. Only do I think that quake, but also keep going back to bring something of that. Into the present day in, reckon and suggest that. Far from these articles about like running has always been wide or like. Jogging has always been a white sport, I. I don't really right grew up. Your Dad would go to the ten KS joke around with his buddies. Culture that you grew up end, but one of the things I love it. You do on Instagram is you'll find old ads from like the seventy s from running magazines and stuff like that and you'll, you'll show them and you. You see this sort of historical chronicle of like how running was portrayed to the public like the latest pair of shoes, running shorts and stuff like shit, super fascinating. How it's being depicted right well, of course like you know, America loves using black people and by cultures like marketing forces, so even in this the Michael Severino Book Inter Inter running right or beyond jogging, like super esoteric seventies, kind of cult book about jogging had brother on the cover, and so when I met my speed I was like. Yeah. I mean you're coming out of Esselin Institute. You put black dude on the cover of this mystical book about running. He's like that's John Carlos. He wasn't happy about that. So. John Carlos but. But yeah so I! My understanding of it is that. There's always been that kind of representation all the way along until. You know maybe eighties and nineties when I look back at my training logs, or when you look back at you, know the magazines of the day there. There wasn't really any representation diversity, but it was happening. You know the conversations were there again. It's weird to keep referring to but I follow some of these high school. Heroes are these guys that I would follow America's best in the nineties, Bob Kennedy Todd Williams and On instagram, and now it's kind of cool to see how your legends ended up. This dude Bob Kennedy's from Indiana. He's Indiana like born and bred. That was just like his thing. He posted this thing the other day. Talking about Steve Home and Steve Holman, was this black dude who was America's best miler more or less, the best miler in the mid nineties when I kinda coming up and whatever happened with the Olympic schedule of every four, he never never wanna gold or anything like that, but definitely was that guy cover runner's world. Whatever handsome? And man just as week Bob. Kennedy posted this anecdote about. Riding around with Steve Holman at a track meet in Los Angeles in the nineties. And like the discrimination that like Steve Holman was getting. Coming out of the hotel and people checking ID's and. It was so crazy to hear about a story of my heroes in one, thousand, nine, hundred four. Experiencing something that I was struggling with as a young runner at the same time, and to know that like Bob Holman and and You know these. These athletes were experiencing this, but that it was also that conversation Steve Home and Bob Candy we're having this conversation and home, and saying to Kennedy like you know the this is like my reality, and if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, and that's and your sense was that somebody like that must must must have transcended that like. He can't be having to deal with the stuff that I'm having to deal with well. You never even got that far. He's on the cover. The magazine and he's got like A. Winning smile and you're looking at his times. You know you're not kind of looking at. To him for lessons of perseverance, you know on a on a cultural level on a political level, so honestly kind of broke me a little bit to read the story of these guys who were young and pursuing their dreams, you know. And that's. What I'm personally sort of. With you know like when we're thinking about. Black Americans, representing the United States on an international level or just walking down the street and representing. America in Oh. What does that mean so? We know where it's easy to think about John Carlos and Tommie Smith on the podium in one thousand, nine, hundred eighty eight winning gold medals in the two hundred. But What did it mean for? Ted Corbitt to represent the United States in the marathon as a black mirror as a black man in America. At the nineteen fifty-six Games in Helsinki you know so, what was his life like? If if Brown versus board of ED was early fifties right and then Emmett till Emmett, till's ghastly murder and appearance on the cover of magazine was fifty, five, fifty, five and then. Ted Corbitt is like wearing the USA singlet in the marathon. You know in one, thousand, nine, hundred, six in Helsinki. What was his life like I? Mean Psa about Ted Corbet just really. It's tough to think about running being always a white man sport. If this guy was the founding president of New York roadrunners if this man was the architect behind. The the fiber New York City Marathon Course celebrating its fiftieth anniversary this year. I mean a superlative American Ted Corbitt. Yeah, but I really don't know. His story got story being told. We need that on the new. York Times bestseller list, but I mean this I had the longest streak of sub three hour performances at Boston. I mean guys like nine nine hundred just. Whatever and was active up into his eighties Just an incredible ambassador for the sport clean eating and you know like. Like he's he's one of those guys read about like An. You know sadly short black history month guy, in addition to all these other exploits also invented the course measurement system. That's used on bicycles to measure. USATF. Measure Course empirically so This is like a wild American interesting note about Ted Corbitt. He was also a member of the New York. Pioneer Club and the New York Pioneer Club was America's first integrated. Sports Club that yeah integrated in the decade before Jackie Robinson integrated. Major League baseball so this kind of legacy of. Of multicultural participation of black American representation in athletics is. Is something that is definitely for revision for sure One of your big mantras is and we talked about this last time is running as an act of rebellion right so now in light of current events. Like how do you conceptualize that statement? How does that apply? Towards. Your perspective and the role of advocacy around what we've seen unfold. Honestly no difficult way. In a quiet way about. Amore Arby's last day. Is Twenty Five. And, Here's a quarter life crisis. He's twenty five, you know. Think about what we were doing when we were twenty. Five or what people are doing figuring out your life like you're letting go of? The ideals you have who you were as a teenager in high school, and thinking about what it means to be an adult. and. Man instead of sitting around on the couch like smoking weed. You know what I mean being depressed like. The Dude, put on his. You know not to say. He was sitting around being depressed or whatever but I just think all of us. You hit that. Those stages in your life, we need to figure it out and we know that. You can figure it out through running, and I can't get over the sense that like like all of us like all runners. It's a vehicle for us to. See Goals in the future. It's a vehicle for us to to to see you know to imagine And so I keep thinking that. Well that's rebellion. Right because it's easier for us. If we're just going to be like a digit easy for us if our politicians going to want us to not show up to the polls if you know companies, take us for granted that we're going to consume whatever food they put in a package on the shelf. You know that we're not gonNA patient is our own establishment that have been on this corner for twenty or thirty years in a box store can come and replace it so. Anytime. We're not doing that anytime. We're reinvesting in the human community and our own communities, and were circulating dollars in our communities. That's rebellion in this kind of like late stage capitalist deathrow that we're. We're locked in right now. You know yeah, and Marbury was doing that and the idea that yeah black man triggering freedom triggering. But also that's just a symbol of freedom and that agency. Yeah, like I actually see. CanNot you know can't get my car out of shop. I can't change this school own bill today. I can't kind of like. A. Climate today, but like what can I do today you know Anna run might not even figure any of that stuff out, but a run might be literally and figuratively the first steps to figuring some of those things out. Yeah, well, there's running to something, and then there's running from something right so running from the cops. Form of rebellion I guess rights on fitness. Running to something implies you know sort of self investment positive change like I'm I'm looking for answers. I'm grappling with identity. I mean so when people say that running is like a a a y thing I mean the idea of running is so. Deeply bound up in the story of black Americans. That it's. It's such A. It's such a metaphor for us, which is why like preachers talk about it in the pulpit? Which is why you know. rappers kind of reach for it as a metaphor and their, versus so it's interesting to to kind of. Restore in situated to look at the ways in which it's a profound, the American, no. And I think interestingly. R- also. Seeing a moment in which we're realizing that things that. Again like you brought up revision, you know our own revisionist history, you know there are certain things that fell out side of the Canon of of. Euro American cultural values you know like the one of the things about white supremacy is that it's so predicated on this narrow idea I mean it's a totally concocted fabricated idea. Right like what's white person? that it also necessarily excluded. All other forms of supremacy, all other forms of culture and existence, and so from the very beginning of this culture of this country's. Birth. So many of these practices that. Black Americans were engaged in were excluded from the narrative, so fabric arts might be considered making close in on. An African hair art you know hair braiding that brought with us from from Africa. might just. Not only be considered hair braiding, but was so threatening on like the slave plantation system that even that was sort of forbidden. so the things that we were practising. During African enslavement, and then you know. In the decades since were, were sort of excluded from the narrative of what could be art, and what could be creativity, and what can the expression and so? This is a bit of a leap but I. Think we're at right now is like looking at running. As as expression, you know like Along lines of dance like. The. Movement as expression and movement as an art. You know it's it's it's. It's okay to call sport. It's okay to celebrated the Olympics. Put a label on it, but when you're calling it sport, it's able to Kinda. Push over to the side and be like that something that those folks to, but what if we're like looking at the movement? Arts next to the visual arts next to Sonic Arts, you know, and so I of am thinking about running now in the context of sculpture in the context of like. You Know Miles Davis work in the context of meditation practice rather than just kind of like. You know doing quarter Sean track so yeah I mean there's a there is a beauty and poetry to that and there are certainly. Performances that stand out as examples of that like whether it's Edwin Moses. Hurdling, or you saying bolt run in the hundred meter, dash or Kogi? Breaking the two hour mark like those those are pieces of performance art. Yeah, undoubtedly, and when you're kind of recounting these various art forms I can't help, but think about how. Music is distinct from that like when when certain art forms percolated up, that did resonate with white culture, they were immediately appropriated and and repackaged in a different way so anytime like something kind of. Like that actually, that might be something like. Let me grab that. I'll take that and I'll present it to the public in a kind of. Mainstream way that's digestible for them. Yeah I mean you kind of grow up knowing that as a black person white took every so the trope of Elvis. But but I'm seeing it like all over the place now You know not only in the work that you know. Maybe even I've been doing running culture for the past ten years. To see how you know. That along with the efforts of. A small group of people working urban running has shifted marketing campaigns of multinational corporations, yeah. It's your fault. It's my. Fault! So. Yeah, definitely apologize. The ancestors cool to have like a bridge runners team now Eddie and stuff like that i. mean like black roses. Like last time we did the pilot I thought like I'M GONNA ask him for a black roses. Jersey and I was like no I can't not, unless I'm part of the team because I, know you don't give those out right. You know like you got to be in the deal. Yeah, I'm trying to hold onto that you know and then. Jessica Simpson just like sell it and produce it in a sweatshop. Get Rich, or whatever, but for now it's. Is that kind of idea but Yeah for it's wild to have watched brands I. mean people just don't know like. You know nod to to the the articles about like running has been a white thing. There was just like no black people in the pages. Now you go through a page of or running ads, and it's just like you think it's only black people. If you. If you weren't a judge running, you know by its ads, you would think only black people do it. Because ed heavily marketed. They're using using black folks. Now you know, but. I I'm not even kind of like. Yeah, it's you gotta look outside of running for inspiration to kind of figure out your way for with running and in quarantine time it's been wild to just kind of. Again I'm on so many different like I. G lives like it's like going back to school. You know and so. I've been. Seeing really fascinating conversations with. Black ceramicist and looking at. The the connections between. Pottery and running or you know thought about. Coming in rapid to you about this, but even the the tradition of barbecue and black culture you know is super fascinating, and to look at the ways in which that's been gentrified, you know. I was watching this. There's a super fascinating barbecue expert named Howard conyers didn't think is his name, and he's from South Carolina lives in New Orleans now and I'm so impacted by. Listen to this guy. Guy Speak First of all he's literally a rocket scientist. He's gone works in a jet propulsion engine Labra, whatever, but he's also a master at Barbecue and the historical research that he's doing to show like Africans were introducing pit barbecue techniques in sixteenth century, Mexico, while like Mexicans are gonNA. Be Mad when I'm back in Mexico like you think black people invented Barbara Cole, and you know that's the. Pro Black. Not really pro black, but like you know you're pro black when you walk around Mexico like we invented them and Shadow to all my peoples in Mexico. Like yeah back to the cuisine, but I'm really looking at the ways in which. Even, our own practices that we've been doing here. in the Americas has just been kind of like subsumed by the dominant culture hair, braiding for instance, obviously just a symbol of of of black elegance and and communication that we brought with us from Africa Bo Derek is like classic example of Corn Rows. Right kind of going crazy, you connick! To Be Mad Derek you know what I mean like, you know if you WANNA like go rail against white people and Derek up there with raids on. It's gotta be of a certain. Movie Ten well I mean again though, but it's just wild to see the ways in which like in running the white women have appropriated African hairstyles or African American hairstyles And sometimes, not even understanding. I've seen folks. Call it race braiding. And I was like. Wow, you know not only. Are you kind of like really coopting at these kind of super rich cultural expressions from black women, in America who are paying the cost for that who are suffering from unfair and discriminatory hiring practices and pay practices You know not just because their hair, but because of who they are. But to kind of just like take wholesale, black hair styles, and then just like use that as like you're lucky hairdo. For your marathon is is. Is Offensive. You know and is is cultural appropriation, so even running, which is simple, just listen up and going down. The road is is is rife with cultural appropriation that. That is worthy of investigation. For sure we'll every art form. Every trend is built upon the legacy of some pre existing form right so. You know if you extrapolate that argument is appropriation, so at what point does the appropriation or the nod to the forebears become inappropriate, and like what is the responsible ethical way to? Basically, embrace multiculturalism. I think that's a that's like an area where a lot of people don't know where the ground is firm, yeah. Yeah I think man. It's not sexy, but it really is a question of attribution and respect, and so now in these days when people are talking about the phrase, you do the work. Knowing sort of you know you don't want to be a nerd like me. and kind of just like. Making all these connections, but you know you really do have understand you brought up the example of Elvis. I mean kind of taking in rhythm and Blues Music and stripping away all its labeling, and then repackaging it for something that you want to market in a different kind of way that's. Probably where the disconnect is, and you know so if we're understanding that Picasso and Braque. We're getting. We're getting so much influence from African sculpture. You know when they were working at that time then we're R- understanding. Picasso a little bit more and we're also. Problem Arising sense of of what geniuses rather than thinking. This is like the greatest artist of all time looking at Picasso, as as a link in the chain and someone who you might put his workup as museums are doing now his work up next to the work of faith, ringgold like how artists can not only be. Just contemporaries in the studio or at a moment in time, but also fanatic. In cultural contemporaries and cultural conversation instructs deposing those against the influences. Yeah, for sure so I. Think it's again. They always say it's A. It's a question of influences you know and so i. think that when we're respecting where we're when we're respecting our inspirations when we when we're acknowledging where inspirations. From from Wednesday came then I think that that's a huge step towards kind of like. Again dismantling some of these white supremacist practices like cultural appropriation, so in a very practical sense. If there's a woman who wants to you, know corn row her hair for her marathon. How is she supposed to? Provide that attribution in a respectful way. Well, you know I mean. Might, be economics right? You Might WanNa pay a black woman to do it. You know rather than say like. This is how black women in our communities make their living with hair braiding salons. Let's patronize those businesses and give credit to that like. The idea that like this is high braided my hair in high school. You know and so this is what I'm. GonNa do. that. That's not exactly the same thing now. It should be said that like women around the world have always braided their hair in intricate fashion. And so some breeding techniques coming out of Scandinavia culturally demonstrable so I'm not trying to take it in and legislate yeah. Of this, but you know and also I think that. Taking pause and thinking how other people might feel you know Is is not only one of the calls to action for this moment. That that hopefully, we'll go forward but I. think that that's like the work we need to do now, so you really think. How do I make space for other people? How do I make? Other people feel comfortable. You know again to to say running or something like that like. How do we create a more just space and in our in our communities, yeah. I'm interested in in kind of what unity and ally ship looks like to you like. You know just sitting here thinking. I'm a white dude. You know I'm privileged I come from a certain background We're in this moment and I really. Want to be as open as possible and as teachable as possible. I want to fully understand the breadth and the depth of what we're contending with right here. and I want to be an ally and I'm very. You know I find myself feeling cautious or somewhat paralytic, and what to say, and what to do for fear of Miss Stepping in culture, in which you know, a slight misstep on instagram or in public is met with. You know we were talking about before and not that I. Really you know care that much about any of that I. Really what I want. What I do care about is like getting this right. I'm interested in. In what that looks like from somebody of your perspective? That's that's an interesting thing and I think that's something that a lot of our thinking about And One of the things about double consciousnesses. Is that I? I wasn't really thinking about. That situation you just described. You know like I don't think. A lot of black. Americans that I've been in conversation with over over my life. I have been really talking about paralytic white guilt, right? Yeah, so. This, the wave of communications in the past several weeks has been really fascinating. Let me. Make it about me yeah right. Like here's a like is so funny. Because all the white dudes are freaking out right now, trying to figure out what to say, what not to say, and my black friends are like. Relax, man! Yeah, like we've been waiting for you. It's cool yeah job. How do I get? Rhino counting on you to get a right. Just chill out. Join in. Yeah the whole paralytic idea of getting a right so I didn't even know you know like when. After the the George, Floyd killing when you know black. When before we were really aware, it was happening daily right, you know like our experiences are understanding of the moment. Setting in so when there was like so much like white silence. I was like okay. Cool why? Why why people don't have anything to say okay cool and it was actually a real. Vacuum real deafening silence. It was actually really incredible because it was able to I was able to just. Think about. The life of a moderate brand Taylor George Floyd without. so much noise as able to reach out and connect to like other black people in that space, and just have these emotional connections. And what were those conversations like? You know that they were uncomfortable because. You, know you really have to like. Everybody has divestment that they need to consider. So you really have to kind of like go of mccheese Mo or you like these Kinda like chauvinistic ideas of our own vulnerability and fragility. And so I just reached out and just like. Honestly I think it was like the Tuesday after George Floyd I just. Called like texted. Like! A lot of black men in my life I wasn't like on Instagram I wasn't. Doing much except that and it wasn't. Just like saying that to my friends and my family, you know it was that I was doing it to people that I respect it from a distance I was reaching out to people that I know. Didn't really like me too much, and I just wanted to say, and it wasn't even cut and paste I was actually going through and I was like. Reaching out to someone saying like Hey. Just want to let you know. For these qualities. I JUST WANNA. Let you today that I love because I think that it was just like my instinct spiritually emotionally like black men needed to hear black women need to hear it every day, the lives, but black men you know. The day after. Watching or the day of watching video of this, this man getting killed, you know over the course of eight minutes and forty six seconds Needed to know they were loved, and so that was like a really emotionally exhausting. Process that I went through on that day. So that was. An took a few days recover from that, so then by the time the weekend rolled around and I. saw you know like white women. Yogis were like zoom. Chats, for people to examine fragility. Then it was cool. I was like Oh. People got this white people just to talk to each other. They're not going to bother me at all. So I'm good. I was like it went from like white silence to like white people talking to each other. It was great that Monday hit that. Bell rang on Wall Street. Every every black person's phone starts ringing docks. I didn't get on a plane and talk to me on the podcast I was like Oh. Why people white people are silent on this? That's terrible angry, but it's also like a nice little respite from white people thing being named they named the phone was hot from Monday admi. I needed, their materials reviewed. So, So. Or they need knocks to tell me that I'm okay and I'm like Dad, that's. Not. Bad of guy like I'm not I'm not. That's not me so. So that was like a process. That you know has kind of. Grudgingly negotiating. And then the third week, white people added figured out already, so I was like. Oh, now why people are like black score, Tuesday and companies like black people we've got it figured out here's. Ten K. here's. Forty Million Mike. Cool I, you know what I mean, so. It was really swift. The Way the fumblings of of people's responses brands responses to kind of. This tragedy. This an awkward fumble, though because you know, I found I'm. Finding myself doing the same thing like like I said like I'm grappling with how to communicate around this and also. Getting honest. About. Diversity on my own platform like I talked about this the other day like I like to think that I've had a wide variety of diverse voices on my podcast, but when I'm objective about it and I measure it up against the five hundred twenty plus podcasts that I've had. It's predominantly white, like I have a lot of growth there right? So what do I do well I get out my contact list and I scour twitter and I look for interesting voices, and then you know you're the one who gets the phone call among other people, and that's weird to like. Oh, now I'm going to call knocks, you know. I. It's cool and I'm glad that you're here and it's awesome. But does that feel like when you got that? Call for me. You feeling like Oh, this is this is somewhat opportunistic. You're like you know what I'm getting at Yeah I. Mean You can't. You can't overlook it. You know I mean like. As Richard Pryor. I'm talked to rich since we did that retreat. Now he's calling me. You know I mean we're we're cool. I feel like the bond that we have as as dudes in his as runners in an athletes and writers and kind of like engaged humans on the planet. Hey, you're taking that. Call you know but. But I was thinking like that's one idea to like. Reach out and like us to connect, but. There's this movie Putney swope. If you've ever seen but long time, yeah, right so everybody back and rewind this movie because I keep thinking about it all the time you remember. The opening scene is the kind of like Madison Avenue all White Board Room. Of the Advertising Agency and the Chairman of the Board has cardiac arrest dies like on the table. Yeah, and so they have to go around with the body on the table to go around and do a vote for who's going to be the next chair. There's one black guy the late sixties and they all do anonymous vote and when it comes. Time to read the votes. He wins unanimously to be the next chair. And all the white dudes are enraged like. How did he do it first of all? Each white dude voted for him, because none of them wanted another white due to become the chair, and then he voted for himself. So not only they mad. They all like hoodwinked each other. Than they say like you voted for yourself, and he's like of course as the best man for John. He gets up. He says the speech and he's like. I just want to let you know this. Just going to be a few small changes in the next scene is the boardroom. It's all brothers, Afroz. People doing hair braiding hair at the table and. Watch the film, and just because you swap out the room and all black people and doesn't make it great they still. Do Shady marketing campaigns for black people. Black people do marketing so there's a good a good lesson there but I was gonna say really. In the spirit of this moment. Another model is turning over your podcast to me. And I take over, so what is Knox Robinson's podcasts? That ritual? Look like? I started kind of like thinking about what that was gonna be as like. I would have to have a DJ. You know kind of play. It would have like music. Break and I was like. How would I what Knox Robinson? Do in the spirit of the revolution like what would I do to totally flip your podcast? So that's the other I like that. Proposition. Let you do that. Yeah, you have seen people do that with instagram. They're turning their instagram accounts over to diversity voices and I think that's really cool. Yeah, so you know. Anytime you want, come and do that. You might have to move out of Mexico City at some point. How long are you going to be there? You think I'm working on something special I. Mean I'm working on something? Special I'm bringing together. In a building a training camp with her silver. City Marathon winner and I'm. Working with one of the greatest architects Michelle Roach. Can who you know, also in Mexico City and so Michelle's going to kind of create this. Amazing Brutus architectural structure next to her mind. Silva's training camp and so we're working on that like. At home retreat center. So that should be. Ready, you know at the end of this year. Wow, so I'm really excited to to share. That obviously is going to be like a second home for you a second home, but I wanted to be like a second home for like a lot of people because I was thinking about you know as we were heading up to Tokyo Olympics and how some of our American elites. I! I'm thinking about it when I was a kid looking up and elites. Steve, Holman and Bobby Kennedy and they're like titans to me now. I'm older and I'm a dad. I'm thinking how these kids are living and I was like Oh. These kids are starving like these kids are like the best runners in America and they're broke. We deal with brands, so we know how bad these deals are you know? They're making like. Crazy little money and so I was like Oh, I kind of have a training center where I can just throw the keys to some of these great training groups that are out there. You know you see him on Instagram, and they're doing amazing work on road in Boulder, but you're like. Are these guys living like eight and a Condo in Boulder? Can I just like style flagstaff like you want to glamorize it? When we're stuck in our worlds, you know in our in our things, but I just want to throw the keys to like some folks that just have people come out and train for like six weeks like. You know. What it's like so yeah I just wanted to be a resource for. For for people kind of get their their goals in that. He I met Silva when I did that. Evatt Mexico City okay youthful humble, yeah, I really person and it's an he's still engaged and so it's it's funny to have kind of like ended up in this bizarre friendship with him over the past like eight or so years, so it's a kind of this project with him along with Michelle is really kind of coming together of of serendipitous energy, yeah! Have you seen this? Have you seen Emmanuel? UH, shows uncomfortable conversations with black man. No! This is like blowing up the Internet yeah, so he he played football at University of Texas, and was in the NFL and now he's doing this series like uncomfortable conversation with a black man, and he does I one with Matthew mcconaughey. Oh. Okay, just like exploded the Internet it's it's cool because. Matthew is the foil to him, and it's like, is it? Shall I say black or African American like it's very very basic and. Is So eloquent and like walking people through like. Let's just get a few things straight here, hardly you. Know because people. Couple listeners I know viewers who were seen. He's talking about me. Folks have been asking me like capital beer lower case B so yeah. Yeah I mean you know it's I was writing blog post the other day and I thought about that. I was black or African American. Like which one is it? You know there's a lot of stuff that like. You know the the learning curve is hi. Everybody because. As. A Google search right because it's like. Which newspapers in which media organizations in the twentieth century decided to say colored, Negro, but then black capital be. What, is capital be indicate versus lower case, so it's a question of syntax grammar that that editors can weigh in on, but also a question of identity. For A lot of folks too so. You know. Yeah language politics personal politics back on this thing about ally ship. Not sure we got to the user on that but I am interested in you know I want to explore that a little bit more and also kind of what the what the blind spots are that? You're seeing out there, yeah? I'm thinking about it a lot and like again. I'm not trying to be trying to like. Do People's working like think about what a white ally should? Respect to other brothers and sisters like ally coaches right now that that's valid, you know it's just not not my thing, but having had incredible relationships with with with white folks over the course of my life. I keep thinking about I keep thinking about this guy that I trained with when I left New York. City I moved up to the woods on the banks of the Hudson River, his name's Mike Linski. We talked about that a little bit last time. Yeah! He's never going to see this I can speak freely. Yeah, before he was on Instagram, I would write about him all the time. I called him the bus driver. He was driving a bus for for the local school district and I was just telling him all the writing about his incredible wildlife in his stories. His insight I mean this guy that changed my life. But. He was on Instagram, so it was like a gift for a right just writing about this dude, and he would never know right now. He's on instagram and I'm like. Man. Now? He's on Straw the. It's bad now he's on. Strada can't get away. It's bad. I was like and I'll travel. You know when travel it gives you the alerts when. You're course little segment. Is You lost the course record or what? That's like because I haven't held held any of those scared. I tell you. That's that's part of the. Athletic experience that I'm not familiar. Direct hits of that no I was living in the Hudson Valley. They barely get an internet so. I'll be travelling somewhere. And I woke up and I just lost a course record to this dude and I was like you know he's like what's that I was like well. You get an email notification. He's like what I was like. Yeah, you just never mind right, but this guy over the course of the time that I was living in this tiny town on the banks of the Hudson. was incredible. He was just the best training partner consistent focused, and you really have to work hard I mean if I've known this dude almost ten years the number of times. We've kind of like veered out of like. Non Training Tuck. have been few. And I'm talking about like when we were writing. Sometimes run into these towns in upstate. New York and We rented this town next to ours. Wapner falls and I was like. What vendor falls isn't this was the whole Tawana Brawley incident Tawana Brawley incident Al? Sharpton was up here and there was like protests and stuff. He's like yeah bad times in town and so You couldn't really pull this guy into kind of. Any identity politics conversations, but he would come around and run. He's always going to be there at the workout. He's always ready for that that Sunday long run. This guy would get up. Before our long run and he would go and like put water out. On the course. Over Twenty Mile Run and then come back and then meet us and then run for like three people. You know that that's kind of like. My understanding of like serving others and serving a friend and being an ally so. Even in running, you know you're. An ally in running doesn't necessarily have to be up on the New York Times bestseller lists, but a person who's respecting you as an athlete and respecting you another person and definitely making sure that you're afforded safe passage if you're like moving moving through through space, but Someone. Who has your back in that way But then I think on like a social level, the other thing that I can't get over as like as white folks are trying to tell each other what an ally looks like and as like. You know we're trying to out ally. Each Other and then like super, binary, black and white, and so like you know Asians are trying to figure out how they participate in, and they're trying to like settle scores, white people and They haven't necessarily been historically the best allies with black people so the whole thing is fraught and I just think that like. This isn't a an idea that's been vetted by the experts, but I think why allies gotta look at or like aspirational allies just got to. Take a seat, and like look at how black people interact with each other the mutuality, the exchange information exchange the love exchange that occurs. By people are hard on each other. You know for sure. But. The bedrock of love and respect. That has been key to the. Survival and the perseverance, but also like the Fleischmann of our culture is is key. So you know no book is is really going to tell you how to do that. It's going to provide some insight but one thing I. Don't understand about these lists like there's very little fiction. You know I mean for me a why ally? Has Read Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon. You know like if if black culture is. Part of the of our American culture and Tony Morrison won the Nobel Prize for Literature in one, thousand, nine, hundred, three, like everybody here on instagram talking about. Ally ship and all that if you don't have Tony Morris on your bookshelf, if you're not reading, are Nobel laureate. Fiction. Then like what are you doing with like all these self help books on the shelf. You know what I mean, so. I really think you know. I was like I. Need a short answer for a white ally looks like and like I like that just like Tony Morrison Song of Solomon on your bookshelf. Cool! That's like early early step. You know yeah. It is interesting that that may be a blind spot and yet black culture predominates pop culture. You know from music to film right like. I mean. Well I mean hip hop is so dominant in terms of its cultural influence right now. And yet that doesn't necessarily track to its antecedents. No. It does sadly right because. It does but the popular interest doesn't. Interest I was thinking like a more macab sense of the entire wealth of you know. The Americas was predicated on blackboard. Yeah. That's for us like seeing hip hop. And the legacy of black in America in the America's is an essential link. But Yeah for real by the time it becomes pop- popular you. Sort of lose. That original essence right or you think you right by the more Greek allies you put on top of foment. Yeah? So your sons in New York, right yeah! What are the conversations that you're having with him right now about what's going on? Yeah. He's tough. He's six. Sixteen. And everyone's like. Oh, it's terrible for him, but I can't underst- I I don't know if you've. It's like really hard to be sixteen in quarantine lockdown sixteen year old daughter Yeah. It's bad, but it's like it's roughly sixteen. No matter what you know, so I, if you're Barron, trump is roughly and Barron trump no matter who your parents. If that's his parents living. So. I can't tell. I can't tell if my son. How hard you can't you can't. You can't separate the angst of sixteen with the experience of a young black man growing up around a lot of chaos. Can also with me as his dad He's definitely more even tempered than I am to, so he's. He's telling me to Chilton you know what I mean, so he is on the precipice of like a huge time in his life thinking about. College. Then what does that, even GonNa look like I'm just like it's weird all the way around. He lives in Fort, Greene, and to think that folks were burning New York City Police Department. Police cruiser like a couple blocks from house like that. Was that block I I lived on that block when he was born, I mean. The day. I got home from the hospital where that policeman is a walked to right on that block with my cinema. Yeah and like watch. The sunrise had coffee and like. told him. My ancestors that I was going to be a better man that I had been to that point. We'll see how that turns out, but now I started running the next day so to see. That police van charred. Is. Is actually like a weird kind of touched on the my son still lives in the neighborhood with his mom, so she's been holding down and. It's. It's interesting to see when what he's going to do with it. What do you like? What are you want him to take away like? How does that from your perspective? Inform you know how he matures into a man. Like what are you want him to take away from this experience? As a young black man growing up in America, and in York yeah but I haven't really updated it since I thought about what I wanted for him. As he was coming into this world and I wanted. I expect I. Demand that he be a good citizen I. mean all these kind of like. Corny. Things that we came up with about like helping the elderly cross the street. Whether you believe in voting or not, but like civics know I think that the best examples of of our culture. No matter what your background is I think that that's what I hope. My son and my daughter embody you know I think i. Expect and demand that he's Has An engagement. In the whole world, and thinking about our global community, I expect and demand that He. You know cares about others and his compassionate and conscientious, but at the same time as a young man he's gotTa. Make his own way, and so if I've sort of. obfuscated or or or made fraught? I meander progression that in a way is you know kind of implying to him that it's? Incumbent on him as a young man to find his own way you know It's interesting to kind of think of. How you raise your kids. You know when we were living in Brooklyn. Taking him home from school. One time is four or five and. Somebody comes around the corner and like wanted to sell like a playstation under his Jackie Joe. And I was like. And in that moment like how do you explain that to your kid? Because my son's like Oh my God. We could have had a playstation dad and I was like well. D explain you assume that it was stolen. Do explain what what do you do and then at that moment he's four and I was like am I got to be? The kind of person who tells their four-year-old that there's good people in the world and bad people in the world, and that bad people steal and good people don't and just in that moment I was just like. I got to be truthful. You know and and kind of talk about. How complicated it is to live in Brooklyn, you know where? You know. Whatever you're doing to make. A living is on a spectrum of. Of. Of Morality Away and certainly. For instance someone selling we. In Brooklyn fifteen years ago. In California and twenty twenty could be you know living on. Crib an entrepreneur. You know what I mean so. Even our morality spectrum is so ill-informed by. Sort of arbitrary or self advantageous convenient, the morality spectrum has to be contextualised by the social. Forces that compel a restriction of opportunity. Yeah, so we have to. Change those social forces right right? We can't affect the spectrum. You can't can't even participate in the spectrum if the sources are suspect, right, we gotta really dismantle those forces that you're describing and that's the work we're doing when we're talking about you know. Dismantling white supremacy white supremacy. Is such a wild idea. It's such a wild phrase and I keep referring back to this a police van that was. Torched. In, Brooklyn and I saw the photo I'm in Mexico. City thousands of miles away and I. See these young two young black women fresh. Closed Style and they're posing in front of the police van and one of the sisters is holding up a sign this as fuck white supremacy. And I swear is like one of the most. Inspiring images. I've ever seen in my life. You know what I mean. Had A couple friends, black friends who are like at that's chasing cloud Oh kids these days. They'll say anything and I was like. No, it's crazy that these girls. These young women could have done anything they could like done. Any pose assistance got poses for days, and when it came time for them to like take a photo in front of this burning police car. They held up a sign that said white fuck white supremacy. That's crazy like. You couldn't say fuck white supremacy six months ago, people. Don't even. Know. What that means like white supremacy wasn't even like a disgust concept, and and so if if understanding supremacy as a concept is has entered our national dialogue, and we're able to work on that. That just wasn't even happening just a short time ago. I mean the fact that Miriam. Webster changes the definition of racism this week. They did aren't even know that crazy. How to change. It's too crazy. It was like a sister just woke up one day I. Guess You'd been emailing them. And I think the definition that they had was. The belief racism is the belief that. Characteristics and all this kind of stuff determine. Racer these concepts and she's like this definition is off. You know and she kept emailing them emailing them, and then after all the events that we've seen around the world recently, they emailed. They're back in there like we took a second look at this definition. And you know it's not just this arent belief in race based characteristics like even the the situating of that definition. Is problematic. Got To think about what the sister was doing. She must have just been sitting around with White Co workers. Like. Is Happening in every coffee? Break Room around the country. Why People? Are recent. Yeah, let me pull up the definition and read it to you. Remember that remember when people used to look it up in the dictionary. The belief that you know that that's me. So, they cheesed to too to how what was the change? The changes like it's. It's more complex like it's like brings in again. Sort of a we just talking about in terms of like the nuanced. The nuance forces that affect. A person's view of seeing race in that way rather than just like some eroneous view that if it didn't apply to you, you know it's almost like Someone's like Buddhism right? Like Buddhism doesn't care. If you believe in it or not, it's just the way the world is put together. You know a four noble truths, and all that kind of stuff, so I think updating the definition of racism and taken away from this idea that like. It's an idea that exists out there that a person can subscribe to or not, and if it doesn't if they think it doesn't apply to them, then they're absolved of being a racist. It's like recognizing that racism is a social force that is affecting people rather than a belief that your respective of your individual perspective on it just think about the practicalities of how this huge. Yeah, and it was just this one sister who was like to make. Info at Webster, like and yeah. It was crazy, so that's why could open the dictionary. Like? Then realized I was like Oh. That's what was going on. She was like sick of like working at Radio Not Radio Shack. Sick of These dudes was just like I'm not racist. LOOK IT UP, wow! The. Imagery and the film making that's going on right now is so extraordinary, and it's almost like a day doesn't go by where there's a new clip of this person doing that, but he whether it's behaving badly or behaving courageously and. You know it's so it's so impactful and powerful and indelible the power of of. you know these phones that we have in our pocket chronicle this moment so comprehensively and the impact of that on our national, an individual's psyche. and I'm interested in I. Think I already know the answer to this, but? You know how that. Leaves you like on some level this is this is not new like this has been going on for a long time, but for whatever reason. It's entered our consciousness because of the rapid fire nature of these recent. You know tragic events that. Were were depicted in a way. That made them your refutable like we. They demanded that we pay attention to what's happening. And when you hear about you know the done whether it's the definition of racism in the dictionary getting changed or people taking to the streets like changes happening and there is this sense that we are living in a very historic moment of promise and opportunity, and personally that gives me hope and I know there's people out there like Tana pc coats who are expressing hopefulness around this I listened to a podcast with him recently with Ezra Klein in which he expressed that I mean. Do you share that? Or how do you of project into the Near and far future about how this is going? GonNa Unfold. Well coach is an interesting example, because he actually sees his own work as a pivot from the Obama optimism where Obama says the Obama said that the the moral arc of the universe. Ben Towards just. The moral. Arc of the has long been towards justice or eventually or something like that. Yeah coats like it depends for its confusion. You know what I mean and and that's. That's a scary concept but I think that what we see in his work and what? I think we see in this moment is. a falling of the scales from our eyes I think that this is an opportunity for us to really see things as they are. And really grasp full to that and not what you know. Mainstream media's telling us by the time it gets that, but what we're actually like. What we know to be true and that's. That's that is a leap of faith. Right? You know, but I think that. This is our chance to see beyond. Speeches that politicians are making. This is our chance to to to think a little bit beyond what? Are mainstream media's telling us, and what does it mean for us and strangely This opportunity has been reset on so many levels, but it's been a recent on like my mindfulness practice, and going back to the beginnings of that, and then just thinking about the ways in which. A mindfulness practice helps us. Just think of things more clearly you know. It's interesting. You know you you kind of think that. Meditation is like about I. Come a guru on a mountain, top or something like that, but. I've been reading and hearing some things lately that it's like it's not even about. This nirvana state of an empty mind. It's actually about More practical than that in some ways, and is about like being able to navigate thoughts, and like see things clearly, and I think that that's a tremendous gift that that is at our disposal right now to to work through it, and I think that kind of work on a personal level is what's going to. Equip all of us to to kind of work our way through, and that's what we're seeing in the comments section right to take it from like a spiritual idea down to like a super. Absurd example but? Before you might see. All comments sort of unify BENEF-, you're seeing all these disparate voices. You're seeing like the fragmentation of people thinking their way through it in the past few weeks, you know. In Nineteen ninety-two riding was bad, or why would these people burn their own neighborhood well in Los Angeles? It was an update of ninety two. They weren't burning their own neighborhood, right. It was like a strategic move to burn non-life neighborhoods. The conversation that's happening with white people. About like? The difference between protesting peaceful, protesting looting and riding. That's an interesting conversation. Have instead of just kind of like watching your TV screen glow in like kind of like. Making assumptions right what you think it is. Understanding that that choices are being made about which images you're being presented, and they're being conceptualize in a certain way, and that that happened to me though you know like the day The day after Minneapolis, I started to burn got an Instagram, and I saw this really wild footage of someone just driving down the road, holding their phone out, and it was just like block after block of devastation. Like on a cultural level pop cultural of I couldn't. Couldn't couldn't it was just like blocks and blocks? And then it was posted with like no commentary. But it was posted by this amazing shot called Repair Lehrer I fought him interim. Because I think I must have read an article about him in outside magazine, and it was cool. Cool, young couple cool, young people who are. Have a business that repairs outdoors gear. You know what I mean, so there's a sustainability mission. There's an access mission and all that kind of stuff at the time. I wasn't really thinking about the providence. The handle so I was just like hey. Disappointment. Follow Fan of this account. I think it's problematic that you're posting this. You know I'm disappointed that you would post it without any context you know. because. Their followers were. Outdoors supporters, and so there was so much condemnation of why would these people burn their own stores? and Are you safe and I was like man. You're on the wrong side of history of this little judgment on my part, but reacting in the moment. And Man owner really like got at me on the comments you know like it was really antagonistic, and some of the other people and I don't engage in social media in terms of like going back and forth with just. One Cup of coffee. You know and kind of reacted. And so since then I've like open up a dialogue with owner with this woman in just trying to figure that out and. You know Thinking about how I could connect, or we could connect, and the outdoors world could connect with the rebuilding of urban devastation in Minneapolis. You know like where the destruction of her shop is is just a few blocks from where Brogan Graham lives. You know and so. How can we kind of think about supporting small businesses as we build back? Our cities and still continue our mission of like. Sustainability and access to the outdoors and all that kind of stuff, so I really think that you know important conversations. Bridging that gap and enriching across that impasse, you know not only me acknowledging that maybe I was kind of like a too much pressure to someone who is like fearful of losing their business, but also being able to double back outside the chatter, and make a connection, and then I'm just kind of like among a lot of other things I'm thinking about is how I can connect with this woman and her business has has a great mission you know. Yeah. That's interesting. I mean it's that second piece I think that's impactful that ties into the mindfulness. So you saw this, you got activated and despite your mindfulness practice, you've found yourself give. But at least you were able to. Understand that you were being reactive and realized that there was actually an opportunity here and to reach across, and to try to you know, develop a little bit of brotherhood or unity. Where can we see eye to eye here? Even though we may may be perceiving this situation completely differently. Sure yeah, I mean because like. You gotTa dance with the girl that Brung you. You know what I was thinking. How did I even get up there in the first half? Ended up on following I'm not. Like. And I only got pulled back in when she kind of kept talking at me and I had to come back to me like you still talking thought about it again. And pathetically and I was just calling Brogan House like Yo this businesses right around the corner from you. You're the founder of November project like let's has has. That's cool. I've been I've been talking a little bit too yeah. Just getting his boots on the ground perspective on what's happening. It's amazing because yeah. Again I'm not doing any anyway work for. Like I'll. Allies aren't created. All allies are equal, but some are more equal than others I am not. Is the title. This podcast is going to be I. Am not here to be your. Weight Ninety. Say later black, a black ally for a white guy differ from how white guy got to be allied to a black, sober broken. Is a little light I've been just kind of like hey. He said you those videos. Yeah, that's how he communicates. So you see when pop up got your. Video back. Yeah, you can't be around, you lady like. Weird love affair with this guy who's like wearing some wild close. but yeah, he was getting a little pressure. There is a a a real strong brother, real strong voice in New Orleans. Who's just like going hammer November project for coopting an our Ahmad run. Themselves in a little bit of crosshairs and I was like Hey Brogan like. I didn't even wait in over there. I didn't just kind of like. Yeah, up! Brother, like cool double back to I. Hey, be good. Kinda. Gradually there are like even if I'm not helping them listening or even just having him on the shoulder. That like. Hey, you're the founder you've moved on in your life and you raising the kid I'm raising a kid, but like this is. Just dig on this conversation. He's like cool and then. Three weeks later, his entire neighborhood is burning like. A wild kind of thing I was like. Hey, let's catch up sometime like talk about. Represent black representation in November project, yeah. Like three weeks later, he's like who should. So yeah, that's. Late never. Nothing but love for Brogan, yeah semi a t shirt. Made. Why I cajoled him into sending making me want and sending it to me because he was doing it on Instagram, but it says it's those hand spray painted t shirts that he make it says zoom call summer camp. Yes, a just painful as the November crash and I'm sure that's. That's crazy. I don't understand why people. Want to be in November project anyway like black people complain and I was like your arms were sore like why? If. It's not representative like that's cool I just. That's fine November. Project is hard. It is hard. I've only done one not. Saying. That's what I'm saying. I was like broken. Let's just be friends. 'cause I ain't never come into your thing so when black people are mad about it i? Want them to the side like let you don't want to do that anyway. Bigger fish. All right man well, let's. Let's land this plane How do we end this? I mean I think it would be good to just recap. Maybe just share some final parting thoughts about. you know how we move forward in the best way, and not not to harp on this ally ship thing but I I really do want to. Use this platform for good, and and and to you know be part of the solution to this problem and I. Just I want to explore every possible way that I can do that and having you here to speak to. That has been super helpful to me, so thank you for that and maybe just share a couple of quick quick thoughts to round it out. Mean I know wildly discursive all over the place, but I just I keep. I keep coming back to this idea of love. I. Know That's Super, obvious and basic and people have talked about it. From time but. Ahmad armories best friend say that it was weird. Every time he would like leave from hanging out. He would say I love you man and he wouldn't leave until they said it. And these like young brothers sitting around in rural Georgia at the car wash leave and work you know and like. That's like a really. Insane and rigorous practice to do. So. When I called up all these. Brothers and told him I love him. It was like. Rigorous from my end it was it was tough. You know To reach out and. For All the mistakes that I've made, and then I'm going to continue to make as soon as I walk out this door. I just want to keep thinking about. Love and I wish that. I would hope this would be a moment for people to. Reset and reflect on what that is you know and. For All the little microaggressions that we engage in all the Times that we. Take around Chitchat and anytime we just you know. As a detractor to someone else for no reason. All, these things are adding up to this. Giant. Feeling of Of psychic pain that you can just feel whether you're feeling it in America's cities or you're feeling it. In. Amman killers like how abject were these guys that they went into like? Seek and destroy mode. Mike. It's not too early to kind of think about. The spiritual poverty. The imaginative. Poverty that. Racists feel. Internet mean so. If we can kind of. At least consider what an ethic of love looks and feels like if we can just kind of like. Reset and referred to those basics civics that maybe we thought we were going to pursue as we got older. That's really what I'm thinking about. And I think that honestly and like a really Corny kind of social media way like it's okay to be. Like a white ally with you know. One thousand forty seven followers, and like here's the listen. You're like banging on white people, but if you're like going and getting in the DM's like detracting from someone else if you're the purveyor of suspicion or Innuendo or You know kind of things like you gotta think. If our own white supremacy is uninvestigated until very recently, and that's black people black people. Have a social sickness that we've inherited from four hundred years of experience in this country so everybody. Is is on the docket right now to investigate our own internal white supremacy Every time you dragon somebody in everyone engaged in a little bit of Chitchat every time you're sort of kind of like appropriating and every time you're doing all the little things you know. It's not just racist jokes that you kind of telling you know they're in the break room. It's like all the little small things that. Are Up for investigation. Like the world doesn't become any less boring, because you're not like the funny, person town racist jokes and your world doesn't become any less interesting when you kind of like fall back from in Dade engaging in gossip and Innuendo, you know so I, just think that for me. That's. What I've been trying to consider and that's individual work. You're not going to get a pat on the back for that. If you stop. that. No one's GonNa, know. Like if you stop being a racist. The only people who are GonNa know are racist friends, so I'm sorry to tell all the allies, the aspirational allies out there it ain't no medals. You know what I mean. It ain't no podium. kind of see even the white on there with the podium and. With John Carlos, and he just didn't even give glove when he's like. It's to gloves bright you. Every. Play thing about white people. Every time you post photo of John Carlos and Tommie Smith. There's always a white guy from New Zealand. Who got a jump in and be like? We forget. So. So, yeah I guess. I guess I. Kind of. Think about that like the Mazda type of of things. Well. That's beautiful appropriation yeah shutout. The browser. All those Hindus out there. Right I love you man, thank you so much I appreciate your openness and honesty and vulnerability today. It meant a lot to me that you came all the way out here to share with me so I. Appreciate you and. I look forward to spend more time with you man. To so thank you. Thank you very much for this opportunity to share in that the energy. Yeah, it was good man. There's good you feel alright. Feel excellent good. Yeah, if people are digging on Knox easiest best way to find out I run on Instagram is that where you want to direct people anything else going on? You want to let people know about no. No Man? It's just a big things are kind of coming up as you know kind of building, this place in Mexico Alston kind of move into some some new projects to share with folks to kind of participate in these ideas that we've shared two, so I've definitely been using this time to kind of go back to my own drawing ports. I'm rather conforto to. Things from here on out to to share your cool man. Thank you all right, thank you. These flats I'll stay. Batman is A. Love knocks probably one of the coolest people. I know hands down. Be sure to hit him up on instagram. You can find him at first run. Please check out the show notes for copious resources on all matters discussed today, and if you'd like to support our work, subscribe rate and comment on it on apple podcasts on spotify in on Youtube. If you'd like to support our work here on the show, subscribe rate and comment on it on apple podcast, spotify and Youtube. It's also very helpful when you share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media, and you can support us on Patriot. RITUAL DOT com slash donate I appreciate my team works. Works very hard every week to put on the show, Jason Kam Yellow for audio engineering production show notes, and Interstitial Music Blake Curtis for video videoing today's show Jessica Moran for Graphics Georgia Whaley for copyrighting Alli Rogers for portraits, decay for advertiser, relationships and theme music by Tyler Trapper Pyatt and Harry mathes. Thanks to love you guys you back in a couple of days with another. What's next? I think we're GONNA. Do An AMA. Ask Me Anything back with Adam mid week this week continuing in the series that we started. Just like two weeks ago. I think I'm excited about that so until then be well, piece plants.

America Mexico City New York City Knox US Athletic Greens Mexico instagram writer Knox Robinson Minneapolis John Carlos Jaybird Barack Obama Brooklyn partner Arizona Tommie Smith
John Lewis + John Salley Are Black In America

The Rich Roll Podcast

1:46:29 hr | 1 year ago

John Lewis + John Salley Are Black In America

"The. You have to understand that everybody has to speak up. When you hear something racist, you see something races. Speak up about it. I think people are too uncomfortable with being shunned. Like no, you're not going to be liked by everybody, but somebody's GonNa hate you. Let them hate you for doing the right thing. You know there's a lot of people like I. Notice wrong over there, but I'm not gonNA. Say anything because family and friends might not talk to me all right if those people don't want to talk to you for doing the right thing that's showing you. Their character is black. Folks need to say enough is enough and white. Folks need to say what you need. Data change being pro black, not anti way, hate white people, but with just one police. Brutality fixed. We just want cops. Stop killing us the thing that everybody is writing and protesting. Is Not I'm black you're white. What we're protesting is police brutality Is Tom the ended and only way to end? It is together. That's John Lewis and John Salley. This week. On the ritual podcast. Rich role podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to the PODCAST. Today's episode is brought to you by ten thousand, the makers of the best highest quality, most bad ass workout shorts in the known universe. I spend more time in running shorts than I do in normal clothes and basically what I found is that some of them look cool others perform. Most of them fall apart too quickly. A lot of them are ridiculous, or they lack certain features that are important to me like a decent pocket that fits my phone snugly or aligning. That doesn't shave my inner thigh ten thousand assault all these issues and just does what I need my shorts to do. They fit great. They look handsome. There super comfortable. They last forever. The fabrics are anti odor, and as a direct to consumer company. They cut out the retail middleman, so you get premium fabrics, trims and techniques that other brands simply can't afford. 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So if you're looking to be smarter about how you sleep, recover and train, so you can be at your best. You've gotta get whoop for my listeners. Whoop is now offering fifteen percent off when you use the code rich role at checkout go to whoop dot, com, that's W. H., o., p., DOT, com, and use the code ritual at checkout to save fifteen percents off your order. Unlock your best self today with. Okay, my guest today are good friends. John Lewis and John Salley. Mr Sally is a straight up legend, the first basketball player in NBA history to win four championships with three different teams, the Pistons the Bulls and the Lakers in three different decades. How about that? Since retiring in two thousand John, Benet consistent presence on television and radio, appearing on countless programs, and even creating many of his own shows over the years. He's also a longtime Vegan, a passionate animal wrightson, healthy nutrition advocate for many years something that we discussed at length in his first appearance on the podcast back in two thousand fifteen. That was episode one eighty. John is also an absolutely relentless entrepreneur. He's got his hands in more businesses than I can count from Vegan wind cannabis and his latest Venture Cafe Organics, which is a brand new plant based restaurant, which just opened last week I believe in San Bernardino, the intention being to put an end to the food deserts that play the black and brown communities that reside there. John Lewis Aka the Bass Vegan is public speaker is a personal trainer. He's also an entrepreneur, a longtime friend, just one of the friendliest most positive personalities in the Vegan movement who has taken a new career turn lately as a filmmaker partnering up with our Mutual Friend Keegan coon. You might know as the director behind CAL spiracy. What the health and running for good. On this powerful new documentary, they're collaborating on called. They're trying to kill us. which takes a look at the impact of food and health injustice on disenfranchised African American communities, which is also a subject I- I explored. With Mr Lewis in our first podcast together back in two thousand sixteen that was upset to sixty. We're going to break it all down today. Black lives matter the. US! Police misconduct the nature of systemic racism. The role religious institutions play in embedding white supremacy. The importance of black leadership and black entrepreneurship. Food and Justice of course, and what is required of all of us to make things right including what black and brown communities need from white allies so that we can grow change. Do better together. I should say that the conversation about the movie. They're trying to kill us. which takes place near the end of the podcast was a bit briefer than I would have preferred, but. I will definitely have John Lewis and Keegan coon back on the show to discuss the documentary in detail upon its completion, which is near and promises to be quite powerful in the meantime I encourage you to check out the incredibly compelling trailer for the documentary posted on Instagram Page on I. Believe June twenty fourth. And finally this one, which is a bit all over the place at times. Both. John's are prone to Tangents, Sally Sally. That's why we love him. Is First of all packed with expletives, so pop on the ear buds if you got kiddos in the backseat. And it's also provocative. I suspect might be uncomfortable for some navy for many at the same time. These guys are a total blast. Their fun I love them dearly. Both of them so strap in. And prepare for the testimony of John Lewis. And John Salley. So Why don't we just start with? What's going on like? Give me your take on where we're at right now I. Really Want to hear your perspective on what you think is going on. Right I just feels like. Feels like we're out of spite where people realize that they have to use your voice now. And I mean everybody like we're starting to see the team effort to. Battle racism like. We realized black people can't do it alone. And White people have to speak up and I'm starting to see this actually was happening. but I won't I. Every person out there does helping US thinking about helping. I want you to understand that there's probably not going to be in the awards. There's GonNa. Be any PAT on the back. There's not gonna be a five like you're doing it just because you know what's right. And I think as long as they understand that you know because I feel like well. I I went to this March. It's like yeah, that's great. But. There's a lot more going on. As far as everything that's going on I, think has been going on is just getting revealed. Yeah, this is not anything new a main. Not the, call him out but jobs the older than me, so he's seeing more than me men. Just from like I grew up in Ferguson. We talked about before. Yeah, I've seen. Worse almost you know, so it's just like. It's time to end ended and the only way to end together, yeah. Yeah I. Mean I think they're they're. Look those changes at the highest level politically Require certain level of will right and that will is a reflection of popular support, and I've never seen this level of support, so it's about figuring out how to harness that and channel it in the right direction so that it doesn't just dissipate, and then we're back to some version of of normal because. and I think like what we don't want to do is make the mistake of what happened with Ferguson like we talked about Ferguson. Last time growing up there and everything had happened there two thousand fourteen and I think there was a sense that after that. We're going to be some changes and we didn't really see that right. This does feel different to me I don't know if it does to, you know. I think there's an opportunity here. I! Tell me. On I know I'm sitting. I told I told John Before. I said I'm required most of the time I don't want you to be quiet. My pace is that. I'm fifty six years old. So in nineteen, sixty four, the Civil Rights Act with past so if you were born before nineteen sixty four. Black folks had no civil right. and. We still had to fight to the point where Martin Luther. King got killed four years later and then the riots then. Forty seven days after the riot, the Civil Rights Act. was enacted That's when it took effect it got gotta go literally the only way this country or most people have ever ever ever. Dealt with things is when it hurt them and they pocket. Though I think it's the right thing to do. Not I. Don't think anybody's stuff should be burned down. Anybody should be in this situation, but you know what. From what it seems like. It seems like it's a lot of talk. And it does not feel real. So the change doesn't have to come. A! John's have both sides the change. The reason what he means by the change gotta come from both sides is black folk need to say enough is enough and white. Folks need to say what do you need? That's change they can't help us. Why folks can't help us, boss selves and we got do it this way period like. As we money we we do. We got we got a now. Crowd Fund and Sauce to ourselves. We now have to build things That help us as community. We now have to separate like we. We gotta take a second step away. Integration was at this point. We'd love to allies, but we as black folk gust up way. Step away and figure out. Which one of US Candice Oh Owens. Which one of us like killing Mike? Yeah, that's the difference and this is the problem when you separate everybody stays sip, but we have to pick a side we have added say will go this way, or we're going to go that way and we have to make a decision that. Decide! Raise their ways and those on decide raised as before we try to mirror. We try to put it together. And what we got was a Vietnam War and drugs in our community. I was ten. So we gotta change that look. I think we gotta be. We got to act like Americans when we didn't when they no longer wanted to be subjects of Britain. And Malcolm said you know if you talk about a revolution. Does nothing nice about? It's nothing. Shoot about it and if it doesn't. If it doesn't. We're going to go back to the norm. Assey and the normalcy was wrong. And, that's why when years you know. Make America great game like when the fuck was a great I like you know like we had some moments. You know like put it this way. For people out there that are listed when they when you when your rebuttal is black people had. Had A good. They had Michael Jordan, or they had a brag about. If you can only think of five people as the barometer of we had a good, that's not good what I'm saying like and people that. Everyone knows it wasn't good the dealers. What we'RE GONNA DO? Like. We send money to the NCAA NCA in WCBS. To. Me Right. End of ACP, do we send the money to black lives matters what happens when you send them money there when they put this in, are we going to hit corruption? And this guy bought Bentley and three houses. What what what are we gonna hear what what is going to be the move? We send it to Minister, Farrakhan. Do We senator Al Sharpton? Do Senate to Dr. Omar Johnson like. We literally need leadership. One one thought process I would say And I don't know if it needs to be led by religious fraction. I was going to post something out of the day enrich. This is the deal I'm on. This show 'cause John asked me to be on. And I said I here reluctantly. No, no, no. Cost angry. Because I'm enraged, but you know me being a a Buddhist. You've ever react in anger, but. I got seventy daughter twenty three Oh. Daughter, who say to me, how'd you get this far? Like I was in charge right, but then I'm like. Yeah, how did that? Why did I? Post it on my post, it said. No you position. Make your choice. Now. And I was literally to as many black folks that because they knew what it was like. You're going to play a bag You're going, GonNa play the front, and you're going to sit in the house. You going to be in a field. All those different words came about. and. I was like we have to literally unlearn everything. If we don't unlearn it. WE'RE GONNA start acting like my boy Simon. What's that Salomon said he had a book called Black Privilege. And people like what are you talking about? And he was like he got to think about it. He was like sometime. We act in a certain way. As if we're on, this is looking at black people like what the hell do when we supposed to be looking at us like what the hell. So. I just said. Pick your pick pick exactly what position you WANNA be in history. Do you WANNA spark? That's why. I decided to open up my own stuff. We're GONNA things and I'm making everybody else money posting stuff when I was like I. Don't if I don't show these cats. Especially nowadays financial Freedom Literacy growth and invested into my own thought, and and this is why. No one else can do. Yeah, well, you're both guys are black business owners and you got a million businesses right? I mean I can't keep track to cheat to change a lot I. have to ask the caller John Sometimes. Is Really. You. Know what is called a seventy seventy two means of ince a diversified. Have like literally the seventy two names of God in Hebrew, so little of you can have seventy two streams of income. As we not only help yourself you helping everybody really societas so I have seven right now. Right. Pat. Your Vegan Smart Right Smart Vegan as a corporation to in the production company hungry for justice. And something we you know people don't realize like the black dollar. Black consumer spent one point two trillion dollars a year. How many black businesses are put up front? To make their money, is that you're spending is going all the way from your community or your people now is like. Oh, well, what if you invested that back into the community back into black corporations, and in other black corporations come about it just a trickle of failure. You know at one point two trillion and a lot of money. There's a lot of baby shoes. You know what I'm saying. It's not. Is Not going back to the black community. Though so spin is all going out is not coming back in. So. How do you catalyze? preneurs hip in your community. Why we open up planet, health and Compton. 5-for-6 Wisconsin your restaurant. Yeah, so it's a trip, 'cause it's a small restaurant par. But it was like a strip mall, and then it had like a empty lot next to it so I can touch a Guy Moses who was making generators to make make water out of the atmosphere and. hopefully GonNa talk to Ron Finlay again about putting a farmer's market there and then we so here. Coffee, there's a stage for people to talk and get the words out. Things Call Small Cafe, and then it's clothing store, but what all stuff made in la so literally we did that across the street from new body got to say that new era because we want to just take over Compton Avenue I just that mentality, and then opened up plant organics Cafe Au. In San Bernardino in a brow neighborhood, so wanted a black neighborhood and wanted to Brown neighborhood and health and wellness, so it still fits. Will what we do, yeah. But it's. I wanted to get rid of the. The I wanted to make choices I wanted to get rid of the the lack of food, lack of knowledge and health in the Black Community right. I want to get back to one thing. He said earlier about about leadership right now, you know what different about this moment versus sixty four mlk Malcolm X. is that there is no iconic leader at the moment for this. That leadership is distributed and. How does that impact this movement like both of you? Guys are amongst those leaders both have huge profiles. You people who really care what you think and I'm sure you take that responsibility seriously and think long and hard about how you message to your respective communities, but you know what does leadership mean in? This moment and block matter. It means everything I'll tell you because a way everybody is getting. The information is literally the same way it's it's it's not diverse, so all the information comes from television and Instagram, so you're not. You don't have a paper that had been. Are you have a couple of papers, but none debt? We don't go and pick up the paper now and read it the same way. Things can be blocked on on on facebook and Instagram, and and you too, and knows other sauces. We get information from it is no We have to. We have the paper in you know in Inglewood, but you know it's not that everybody's running out to see what the news is where used to turn it on CNN and believe in that used turn on Fox and believe that. So the problem with the leadership is who trust to be one hundred percent on this side, and Never GonNa Waiver and the only person that was like that was common cabinet. Of. Cabinet put his neck on a show like Muhammad Ali did. And But he's not saying hey. I want to be leader of this movement. Right so the problem is. We just have to find out where you know. Do you go after a celebrity? Do you listen to Dave? Chapelle the check like we don't know that Dick Gregory quit being a comedian to be Activism! So it's, but he's passed, so it's like. Trying to figure out who, and what side to move on because. We have been. Rich light for better word We have been literally massaged into. Believe in. It's going to be okay. we've. We've been It's GonNa. Be Okay. We got literally not. Feel that we got in and who I don't know who we we listen to. Some big trust factor with that. Big Trust me because this time we want to move away from. We WanNA get out of it. You know I know I do. Is it because you got to think about like? There are so many people with alterior motives. Is like so yeah. Maybe they might come in. They might WANNA help am I won't do something like but saltier motive and track records have shown like. It's not a big track regular. Good people right now. Say on both sides. So like who do we want to trust and who wants to take that because like maybe? Three or four years ago, cabinet had that energy. He wanted to do that now. He's like fuck y'all were listed. In like you know. Because, listen to. So is kind of like that like. And then who wants to be torn down by the side to right, because who ever is going to be that leader? They're gonNA IT'S GONNA be a mission for other people to go after them You know like the premise of black lives matter. There's another corrupt about. But there have been people out from day one. The money's going here leadership is. Did you know like right? The core of it is good. Of course you're going to get people that trick Alina aren't like a one hundred percent at the at the protest. They turned into looters and they. They do riots like okay. Do you really think that appeal? The black lives matter is out. They're the ones that are really starting. The fires are doing this and that like. You get people that with black lives matter so much. Why do black people kill each other like? Do you think the people in black lives matter are the ones killing other black people like? Do you think like I got to answer that too? And I have to tell people because I know I sounded very strong when I first came on, but being pro black as not anti way. I, you know well. There's a lot of moral confusion out there right now. I don't have that like literally. about the sound like a white guy. No, my wife is my wife is is is half Caucasian and. some of my best friends away. Area. Is that US out crazy the other way, right? But I. But I just want people to understand data. stikes this not the OJ trial. This is neither deriding you like the fact that we even go back to that or have people with so separate separate. The country was and how like black people that didn't even know. Who O. J. was was on his like kind of stuff. We gotta get away from. You know so. And I am glad that my daughter's age different than ours is they kind of see no color that's how are they doing with all this The angry my my daughter. GIOVINE US thirty two. She's she's losing. It and I had to tell Joe Chill, I had to say chill. I was like because you're transferring somewhere else into this like. Don't transfer it. You've got to be smart about how this gets done, but. The one thing. That I would say. That I. Love The allies that are on our side, but. But we just want police. Brutality fixed hundred arrested shit. We don't WanNa let. We just want cops stop killing US I want I literally drive. The house, of white cars in the world. I drive a Prius. I did I. Don't worry that thing. I drove a previous. I. Still got pulled though no. No I drive a Tesla and and I'm driving, and it's even white. It is why. would. I drive this car. And if I see a police officer, I still set. And is like what the hell of fifty-six still doing it and you do I still second. Look and I just want that part to start. Have you had gnarly encounters in the past that was playing for the Miami Heat Ninety two, thousand, nine, hundred and ninety, four, ninety five, so I'm hanging out with my brother. Michael and I'm working for Toyota so I get a land cruise every four thousand hours, but it's like big predicament Toyota was thrown it out so big, beautiful, white, one and getting on a causeway relieving club. I don't drink or smoke. So and we were driving and the cops bullets on a causeway. And tell me to cut the cough turned. Get dropped keys out of which. opened the door with my right hand. Get out and walk backwards. While the gun would. Then it got me turn around. Put My face Napa delays is John Salley. Dude we heard somebody you know stole the white truck like this on the beach. It's my brother was like taking the city. Come on, we'll cool radio. Man, Novi, my brothers I trip you me. If I would stumble backwards you would. You would have shot me. And it never clicked until my brother Tomita. Like Sally coup, right as I got in the car, we get. Twenty minutes house, you say Shit I still couldn't editing as I. But. I got about six hundred. But they become so I've become so numb to it until I saw George flew. It was amazing was like Like those girls calling in Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby Like I. Yes I have before something clicked man that was I had I been. It could've been me and the trip is I posted today a white dude through the same thing. So it wasn't just black, it was police brutality exam nats. What I keep saying to people they keep thinking. I'm making a black. No I'm making it police brutality, and my my cousins like chief was a top captain by the cousins chief of Police Department my brothers Correction Officer. Get it. But they still overstepped their bounds. So when you hear, de-fund the police, no. No I said fund the police so now we could know what they need to do if we got stitches in jail. We need stitches in the police department. Find out which ones. On Air believe that the Aryan race as strong, fine tagme, get them out. WHAT THEY'RE GONNA! Do Estado police force so now. You gotTa Watch it, so we watched black clansmen. Watched Mississippi burning. We saw all these. All these things are imitating life. We watched it knowing what it was about police brutality. Now we need to stop it Yeah. I think it's obvious that that we we need a healthy police force I don't know why anyone would be calling for the abolition of the police I'm certainly not anti-cop, but but I think we need to figure out how to allocate those funds appropriately, so they're going in the. Got To train these people better. They need to be able to manage their emotions under pressure. They need to be adequately trained with firearms. They need to know how to handle high conflict situations like it just if there's anything that comes out of all of these videos, it's that these people are ill-equipped for high stress situations they stand. Soon starting. Now, racist right, but even even even one a lot of need to know the law. We need to retrain police officers to know the law and know the right. That's the deal. They don't know the rights. They believe they're above the law exactly so when you don't know to rights at a citizen, you will violate them. Right, how is corrupting absolute power is absolutely corrupting, so if you think I got the gun and a badge and you know. Shit. Who you Nigga with a badge right I get the right to kick your ass whenever I feel like it well, that is a mentality. It wasn't just Eddie doing it in the movie. That's a mentality I said when we know that the thing that every buyers rioting and protesting is not I'm black. You're white, right? It sounds like it what we're protesting is police brutality period, and then they need to know this is consequences to their actions right now like you said with them thinking they're above the law. It will be as. There's nothing wrong with it. You know what I'm saying like Bass metality right now is like if I anybody. If they find out, they can do something, and then later on, they realize Oh, we'll. Nothing's going to happen to me. The morality is. The paradigm shift for them like I've noticed is wrong, but I get away with it every day and layer on top of that the fact that that opportunity is attractive for a certain person who gets into that field work because of whatever. Trauma or abuse? That person suffered in their life that that makes that Javi sounds appealing. ROBOCOP Was it Robocop Robocop. robocop about the man then everybody's up Shits Creek. I'm sure you've run. INS with the police to right. Yeah, one case that always sticks out to me, is that. I was I was in college. I played college ball. I was going to a classmate's house to meet up with her. and. They lived in a better neighborhood you know. I lived in Ferguson. They live in a better neighborhood. I'm writing over I got this Nine Eos Mobile, if anybody ever. Speed up its hooves. Whatever I'm driving and I know the cop behind me and my job. Still Looking for house, 'cause I'll never been. So I am driving a little slow. And he put lights on. I'm like automatically like you say like. Fear like I remember just Segue I. Remember I put out a post about three or four years ago in house. Like for everybody out here I want to answer if you get pulled over, what's the first is that goes in your mind most why people will like. Maybe, take this and that most black people like. Am I fucking die? So that's a big shift for people to understand like. Yeah, we might even die. I'm probably end up with some kind of injury like that's for ticket whatever? So he's pulling me over. But I waited till I got in front of her house. 'cause I always remember Rodney King, I won't witnesses like what happened to me this before cell phones that cameras it is like ninety. Ninety seven something like that so all right so I. Get there, but I I called on my side. The cops just pulled me over. I'm just letting you know in case something happens, so he comes up. He's got his e unflapped the done he's got. He's got his hand on the gun and he's like. What are you doing? That's that's the first question like I'm not allowed. To be of our. Classmate where. We're about to do our paper together. My book bags right here. Eight home of your arms by I'm just showing you book bags right here so now for the cops showed up about a time. We keep getting our conversation going and he's like. Why don't you start when I? Trying light on I was like well I was nervous. I WanNa make sure those witnesses. There's no you stop when you when the lights come on, I'm like well. I was in the middle of the street to so. Pull over. And he gets my license. Registration goes back to the car I'm telling like I'm so excited outside on the porch. Her father was like a a state official. Some kind of so he comes is a hey was going on like Oh. This guy. He meets the description of the guy him and the car. Meet the description of the. It just robbed a grocery store. Around the corner I'm like damn like in cutoff. T shirt. Because I can't play ball that like you know who robs a store. That's like so many stories. Though is so terribly right now, mind you. I am. Twenty year old guy I'm not even I'm nervous. He'll. And everybody's like Oh. You just comply, but my man when the fear kicks like Dude I might die right now like you don't know what you're you. So I'm sitting there waiting and everything to go through. Finally, they come back. Luckily they stayed on the porch and waited and I think that that literally made this whole story changed and so finally gave the papers back. No, he's not the guy with when they go. Come back to. My classmates father, he calls into the office or whatever. Because they just wanted to check like. was there a robbery like now? There hasn't been in any grocery store in that area in the last five years. Just made it out, so he goes made shit up, but I just didn't fit like I should have been and. Right now mind you. The classmate was black, too. But. She has like a Alexis. Ran Around the night. You know it was so. I was nervous like the whole time the whole time, but it was win a cutoff. T shirt like now. I I would like. To Crop Top, yeah, they've got pulled over for the Croat. Lime Green. We. Man No. It was like a basketball shirt, so eat of it. But it pisses you off afterwards like. Why would you even fuck with somebody like that? For no reason not saying is not bad people out there, so the guy does. He saw the car. He's like this. This is tweaked ride. This guy's got like it looks like he's black lights up. Yeah, yeah, he should be in. His neighbor is a beat up car. The car's beat the fuck up, so he's like not as cautious it'd be in this area was going on and I'm like, but if I'm going to do some shady, I wouldn't be going creeping I would be. So he was. But it's so many stories like that I. Mean I've I've had more runnings myself, but it's like. And that's the messed up. Part is 'cause you, you're you're kind of powerless. Because they have supposedly absolute power and absolute power corrupts you. It makes you believe that anything other than you is lesser white black purple if if we don't change the way that thought process like the other day. excuse me I forgot his name, but the brother got killed in a Wendy's parking lot in Atlanta right. Yeah, he's standing up having conversation Brooks. Yes, he's having a conversation. Yeah, he's tipsy. He doesn't know his right. He doesn't have to take the breathalyzer tests. Next you know he's wrestling and as I'm watching it, they go, we'll look. This is when he turned around and points to stun gun. while. He pointed a stun gun, and then the cop shot him with a real right, so y if if he threatening the back did he feel threatened by stun gun? Then he shoulda well. He stole my son guns. Only other gun I had to shoot them with was that. It it's it gets to a point where you gotta, stop giving excuses. It it cannot. We cannot have any more excuse, and we can't have George Floyd Incense Sense George Floyd. Seven other people get murdered. We murdered murder that we. Have the kid in Palmdale who they found hung. A suicide to come up. Well we have to. It's crazy. That's the problem with the world you know. Hang attention to this so closely and a spotlight on police behavior that these kinds of things would happen. You got protests for police brutality where police of be a brutal against the people that are protest. There's like nobody sees this shit. Like people. Out there. It gets confused because you have looting and like people like has nothing but was. Forty tension gets dispersed. They're doing it to people that aren't. Ludi is like all right. We all have the right to peacefully protest whether it's a Nina football game whether it's out on the street whatever it is, we all have that right. And looting in every single riot. Looting right every. That's why it has a name and have the people that are looting have shit to do with the actual calls. Yeah. There's a difference between looting and rioting. Writing is breaking some shit. Some shit up. Looting is walking out with Louis. Vuitton has nothing to do with. George Fluid. Walking with eight Nike Boxes. Got, this. David throwbacks. Nordstrom at the grow you. That has nothing to do with, and that's where. I gotta say the White Chick but I. Did you go see the one when the when the newscast is saying, maybe she. White Lady. Buddy is being about the white cheese. She was walking slow slow. You always see everybody else. Because? She was like this shit fits. Yeah! I love that kind of. Bring. I get see video of people walking down the street with bags, and then lines of cops across the street doing nothing because they were focused on. You know whatever else and just letting, go like yeah man. They can't do anything about it insurance. There's another video whereas I three cops talking to a white lady while she spray painting, the Building and Oh. You say you join for his name older like the COP tells it like. They're not doing a is a white lady. They're not doing nothing to like. They don't say anything wrong like. Those allies those police officers. Those allies we need them. Like people opportunities, there's another video of a lady like literally walking up. This guy's like trying to board of his store and he's got the drew as somebody caught the lady doing it. She runs up to the guy. To. Ask you take a picture with him. He hazard a drill. She's got the drill. Her husband takes a picture over. They get back in the car leaf. It was a band steer. Wait now is the most egregious one because it was so. Late and like she literally gets out of the Ben's walks up tomorrow. The guys Jewish hoses with it like she's helping. It's the picture desolate say. We Trust. Like who do we trust like what's what's the direct? What? Israel yes, really, I don't know. We have these incredibly powerful images and videos going. Were all consuming them? We're trying to make sense of what's happening. And that kind of butts up against this insane news cycle where we're not sure what's real, and what isn't. It's all very disorienting. Just define solid ground. Where are we standing and and you know to talk to to? Continue on that idea of of being an ally ally ship like. How how can like someone like myself? Be An effective ally. First thing I would ask you Richard to check yourself. You have to check. You have to check for your own because we all have prejudices right because we're America, we watch archie bunker. We Watch Jeffersons. We watch good times. We Watch San Fran. We Watch friends that had no black people to the second to last season. We watched Curves you? Watch these shows kind of. structure I'll pop culture so the first thing you gotta check yourself for your own. Your own inefficiencies all your own, like check who you are, and once you check a you are new. Check in you. Check your ego and you check where you believe you are. That's that's it. We wiped each person to be strong as that person can possibly be. And if that person really wants to be allied, they gotta make sure that they are okay with what they see to give an example out of friend. in Miami and he was cool. He was always with us and then this girl he liked started dating my brother, and he said she's ruined. I go! What do you mean like they've? He doesn't have a big penis. Don't don't believe high. She was like. This. You know. He's I know she's ruined like no other like who I know. Other guy's GonNa win after this. Show so I had to check him I said what do mean by that. Keating. He's still to this day. Probably doesn't well. Maybe now he does, but he didn't understand what he meant a what he was feeling. It's Muslim I. Say Check Yourself. I checked myself a thousand times before getting here on what not to say what to say and how to be As direct without anger, and with a thought as possible because I do have A. I grew up in anti Jewish neighborhood. My first friends were probably widened black, besides my brothers and Ronnie Rosen Bounds still my one of my best friends and. We check each other constantly. Constantly in you know we'll, we won't even make. Back in a day, we make jokes you know because of his, but now we figure out. Maybe those jokes that we make aren't so good for the psyche either so I. Constantly Check Myself. That's the first thing I think. And I think it also has to be a point where. As far as holding yourself accountable, that's huge in. You have to look back and say Damn. To like Ambien, okay with it, not beating yourself up as an ally, you have to understand like Dan. When he cracked a joke and every every white person on no I don't care how much they tried. Tonight has heard a family member a coworker. Friend whatever it is when they would know anything anybody who's looking. They slipped in inward and some joke, or or they would been dead series turn the parent like posted a a couple of weeks ago about this white. That was talking to her parents. and the parents were like well. No. Together, they don't WanNa. See you know that's that's best problem and the white girls I know that's not the problems. They yeah, but they're like animals and this and that like this is going on today. You see what I'm saying so. For people to see that. You have to understand that everybody has to speak up this little seven I think she's seventeen or something like that. Just seventeen year old girl can speak up. Everybody has speaker and you have to nip it in the bird you'd really have to. New? Here's something racist. You see something races. Speak up about it I think people are. We talked about earlier are too uncomfortable. I was talking to Greg Yeah there too uncomfortable with being. Shunned. Like no, you're not going to be liked by everybody, but at least be. Somebody's GonNa hate you. Let them hate you for doing the right thing. You know there's a lot of people like I. Notice wrong over there, but I'm not gonNA. Say Anything because my family and friends might not talk to me all right if those people don't WanNa, talk to you for doing the right thing. Fuck them like literally like that. That's showing you their character. I, think yeah. I get that I. Mean I think that's an example of agreed just. A racist I think the real the harder. Hill to climb in the more pernicious problems is kind of what you are speaking to John's Mike the idea that that? That there are a lot of people most people who. Who will tell you I'm not racist. I don't have a racist bone in my body and I don't see color and the blind spot for them, and for myself is is that? Is the systemic aspect of all of this like when you have watched all those television programs growing up like I grew up in white neighborhood I mean there. There's you know I went to school with some black people, but it's like I'm I'm not I didn't I wasn't reared in black culture right, and and so you were. Well I was culture pop culture. Yes, sure. Sports and all of that But This is brought up for me. The work that I need to do to like unravel that not and and to kind of identify those those blind spots that I have within myself because. I I would I would look you straight in the eye and say I've never done anything racist I. Don't Harbor Racist Thoughts and all of that, but because of the way I was raised, and the people I've surrounded myself my whole life. It's impossible that there isn't some kind. EP embedded imprint that I need to like look at and unravel. You said you said. I said this before guy, said raise boat on my body. I said nobody racist heart. Not You, not you know. What I mean, give you an example. I grew up in a white neighborhood. You said. So you knew. Right. Knew Yeah well. That's what I mean you grow in the neighborhood. That was why right that means. You grew up in a neighborhood that separated you from black people. That race. So from the beginning of your being, they separated you from us. Because of their thought and fear of us so when you only know this when you see this, you only when you see it, go, Mommy. What's that they give you? The cliffnote. Over there, right, so that starts then starch racism when they separated you and when they didn't include beginning. So that's where it starts to other part is visualization as a young young. We I said this I said what needs to be done. Nobody wants to do. Right? Everybody wants to be a Mata. But they get you gotta die. So. No one wants to do what needs to be done and when I say it. I lose so-called filoviruses I. Put myself in a position, but this is I'm GonNa. Say It on your show 'cause I love you. The only way to race racism. is to take the picture of white Jesus out of every church in the world. If you don't erase the thought of God being white. Going to constantly stay this way. Every. GonNa Post every statute taken down with confederate. They need to go on a black church and take the white Jesus off the wall and they won't do it. Because, the white, Jesus was established across. Do exactly what it's doing, but this is what got us to this point. In Brazil. I was in by Brazil. Three hundred sixty five churches in the city of by this is first place that they. The first place they did slaves. They bring slaves into by they they still they will show you. The dances COUPLA though they will show you the the the the cells when they bring you up from its is a whole talk. Three hundred sixty five churches so every day you can go to a different church and worship Jesus Christ in every pitcher in there is why. There's gold flaking on the wall. People living in the streets did it's always been this way so an audit. Stop Racism. You have to stop preaching it when it comes to faith and religion. If, that's not done. With oh stay here. Can be a little bit of resistance to that Yeah Oh. It's GonNa, be but yeah. We've Detroit thousand sixty eight. When they went in, they painted Madonna Black. So it was called the shrine a black Madonna this specialists no way. Jesus was White, I mean. He can't tell me that because I. I saw him. Today right. The whole life. He looked like he had. He had pretty Brown here and Robin Thicke before he's. He was the best looking. German guy without getting like we just not gonNA. You know black people will defend that like there's some black churches what Nasr this. Hey, the take the pitch away. Jesus down. They said No. Said No. It doesn't mean anything said it means everything it means everything because. It means that if the son of God is White, God is white. If the son John Salley Kmart White. We would blood tests. Right so if the son of God is White, God is white. That is establishing that that's the supreme right. So where do you get white supremacy? That's the beginning of white supremacy. Super Interesting. Yeah, so did you see Cornell West talking to Anderson Cooper on CNN the other day I love Ya. I mean what a what an incredible monologue or he is. So powerful wanted things he said was. the. You know the blow-back is common like make no mistake there. This is not going to go quietly into the night. And just you know manifest beautiful change without a lot of resistance to this. So. How do you think about that like? Where do you see that coming from? And how do we? Prepare for that, I think I think it's spot on like this. Is So interesting that people want. They want people to be peaceful protests. They don't mind the cops being aggressive in getting the protesters out of there. But when somebody's more like Dave Shapiro if he just put out. A forty San that was. Not to get too far. Would anybody can bring a story together like he cared like with so many different? Aspects that tie together, but it's just like. People have to be. Willing to understand how long we have been quite. Like you see the memes like what we try to protest peacefully by taking a knee, nothing happens China, protest on the street nother happens which approach SPCA online. Nothing happens. We burnt some shit. Everybody shows up. All right when you showing up right, okay? When I hear now, let's talk. I'm with I'm John. It's too late I mean I know people were awfully busy so I definitely don't want to see that happen, but I also know that sometimes in order to get the point across. Shits gotta go down. He's got to go now. I hate it that it does I hate it. I hate that I. Wish we could find. We can find another way to get him attention, but then we also got to look at the setup that comes along with this too late. Nobody would talk about it. They talked about the random bricks that show up all the time, right. But his anybody ever tripped off wiser always a random fucking cop car. For like the extra seen on streetfighter, memories beat the COP car, and you get all these extra points like this is always a empty cop car for everybody to burn up and spray paint. It'd beat the hell out of. Win On. Like a proper photo cross that we can say that this is out of control. Exactly win on a normal day. Have you ever seen a random cop car on the street with the windows? Now windows down no cop around. No, Hey. I tell you this. No one likes the truth. A, hard thing when you gotta go in yourself and check yourself and you know how many times I had to check myself if I wasn't being house. Negro off Field Negro. Check myself. I wasn't being house and they used the word Negro because it. It's a little different, but and you think that's why the the the the NFL players acted the way they did with the copper next thing they. They. Would they were and you've had? Owners telling you if you do you out, finding you just. What are you thinking about? What get eldest, said well I. I got a text Texan. Joe drew brees I. Text Drew Brees as soon as it happened. Did you try so? Let me help you through this the me, explain it to you. And he sent back a wonderful tech. Say Sorry and get back to you. Obviously I've been inundated, but you is is I had to recheck what I was saying what I meant nights at the wrong time, but I now know where I was wrong. I was like perfect. I love wicked. I Love I love. We said, and I think he should say we should do this now, and we should pay more attention I think he's stepping up and saying that great I'm glad he did talking my giving people the jobs back on all that all he can do is apologize mistakes, but right now Kyrie. Irving is telling guys when trying to get the NBA season to start back in a Landau. He's saying I. Don't think we should be playing basketball right now and then. If the ball play at the black ball plays back career irving. I'm telling you can eat at market pushed out marginalized. No, the ones who don't follow Kyrie Irving are the ones who are going to get pushed up. They GONNA get pushed off from our community. Because I'M GONNA. Make sure of it. Those who don't join the fight. If you ain't wit us, you'll get US George W Bush. Well the drew Bristol. Back to the breeze thing I mean that that whole situation kind of perfectly encapsulates so much right. Here's a guy who just said absolutely the worst possible thing. He could ever say in that moment, and it was just looking at that. I was just thinking. How could he like what was going through his mind that he thought that was the right thing to do grew up in a way. I will give him my point, yeah. I mean the whole world. Put Him on blasts. The Internet just went insane. I will give him credit that he did a pretty good job with his apology. Like you really and just walk it back and do kind of like that. You know the textbook that. You could tell he put a lot of thought into it and I do think it's important in this moment where there's a breakdown in civil discourse and we're finding more and more difficult to actually just have hard conversations where you John. Salley can say you can speak your mind. You could speak your truth. That's why we need to have. We need to have this like heartless of European. Or whether we disagree or or not like that is the path forward here and right now our culture is so fraught and everybody so terrified of saying the wrong thing that a lot of people are sitting on the sidelines and remaining quiet in a moment where I think we need to be conversing. In public out loud and when you see. Drew brees and what he did. We need to understand that when someone makes a mistake like that that we have to provide them the opportunity to redeem themselves. We can't just cancel them forever like if we want to grow and learn from this moment right now we have to be able to celebrate the winds and figure out how to fan the flames of positive change without just the you know shoving aside of people who follow the line with whatever talking points are deemed socially acceptable in the moment. That speaks to all aspects of this problem from all different I think. And I believe in canceled poultry is. US, too much, but I do believe sometimes it is needed like like I would say this if Breezes speech was one speech, but his interview if what he would say was straight hateful, and you knew it was a hateful tone. Then that was different. You know what I'm saying just just apologizing that she just doesn't work. You know I think we gotTA STOP DOING IT TO IS BLACK PEOPLE! Well he apologize, even he said. I hate fucking black people and he hides out. It's different. We got situation like that where people have been hateful, and then they start looking at their money, their dollar and they're like. Oh, I need to apologize. I, don't apologize because as the right thing to do because you probably wouldn't have said the first thing I yeah. Let me give you a little history. George Wallace was the governor of Alabama. When that? Walk Across Selma Bridge Happen, and he wanted a one at exactly what happened when they crossed the bridge? People getting beaten everything. To win. The president had to send the National Guard in to tell him not to kill these black folks. Eight and had a stroke when he got older and his nurse was black. And, literally saving his life every day, and he apologized, and all these black people put they had them. I got it in jet magazine. And my mom's May sausage you see some people you can you can. You can go back and realize it's GonNa. Come back the one day the that you heard GonNa come back into one you gonna you GonNa need, and I thought about it. I. Like all of these guys I love? Withdrew said I liked did they came back and I liked that when people you said, get a chance to redeem themselves. But. He would not have said that if he didn't grow up thinking the other way. That's why you have in us on this show. Me In particular, only my second time, but don't worry about it so. Come back anytime. We were joking before the talk. Ask for the first time you came in. You just got up in the middle and said pick up your daughter. You remember that Oh yeah man. See was Right down the street from your crib to. Having a rough time that. Oh you in trouble. Flipped out from fourteen to sixteen like. Tripped was like. Out Right now. Man I was like hormones and penises will do some crazy things. were. Just enjoying the ride don't wait to see. Start smelling guys distance. He Smells Cute Jesus Christ. What was going on I wanted to write a book. Just raise daughters can. HAVE BEEN TOUGH I stepped on your point. Yeah Man! You, we do. We can't do to cancel. Culture and people do make mistakes and black people always always give just remember that no ever think that they hate me to never going to get by people and the reason I tell you. The George Wallace thing is because he was the most hateful guy. He was so mad at the University of Alabama. Put the it was so funny as far as. When they talked about putting the football players bear Bryant was like I don't care what you're saying, you know. I'm putting them on field. He was so hateful, but when it came down to win, his life depended on it. It was only black people around him. There was no I folks around, and he apologized, and he apologized apologizing and I. Want you all to realize that when you make those apologies and their heartfelt black people will put their arm around you, and it can't be a one time of policy. fucking life, but be okay would ask his Mama House. Mama has remember that time, but what I'm saying. Because the thing is, you might put out a press release. You might have put out something saying you apologize now, but that don't mean everybody else. Heard it right then, so you know what I'm saying. But we'll circulate negativities, so it becomes unlike jubilees. Talking about you know disrespecting the flag. Are you put out the press release. You know basically say I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that, but that doesn't mean just because you got over it. The other person got over that you're talking about. So you might have is. There's like I mean if you scholarships a starting point. You Mess Up. You added apologize for the rest of their relationship, and if you don't have a relationship with black people. You might have to apologize over and over and over or make the living amends. It's about De. How is he going to change his behavior? I mean I hate to say this is not into putting everybody out there. It's not proof is in the pudding. Is Proof is in the put in, but people in America mess like some crazy bats speaking closed. Not Search Down every time you. Know. But. Approve is in the pudding. Is actually what you gotta go get my daughter. And as soon as you're talking too much. I'm. Like my mentor, my older brother for real anyway, so like last spin around him his almost mostly that. You guys knew each other I didn't know. How old were you when I was a camp counselor? Sounds like a story. How. I didn't say the boys. The Boys! I didn't. Know about senior person about ten years, I would say It's probably. I wore his Jersey number when I was a kid though. I was a fan. Yeah, I mean I didn't know he was fucking crazy. I. I saw I saw something I was. At Mount Sneaker right and I was like wanted to I got. Like of course, he did my brother. My brother was on it since it was called. Saga and we sold it. Does cause. We thought. Yeah, we. We only sell them for forty dollars, so people can afford that right. Yes, aim Marbury mentality. They don't cost that much to make. And And some I says he'll may have Pale sagas and I. Swear I. Don't know if it's because I started smoking weed twenty years ago. I was like what the Hell is. Say. Dan. Side. I don't even remember that one I was like Oh. I used to play basketball. That's right. I couldn't imagine jumping and hitting somebody and my knees right now. Just tweet even thinking of. All that self care. Guy I was playing this coup. Kid and this kid did a move, and he went around me. He went around me so fast. An my legs in move, which used to be just you know it's like instant. Heat went around me so fast this way I had to look this. Say I looked at my legs, I said that's that's. That's what we're. Is it. My legs, I work anymore. I was like how long ago it was ten years ago. I'm fifty, six, nine, forty, six. I knew that's why couldn't understand. Kareen played. He was forty two Robert Paris Kobe plan to its could not imagine play in twenty years i. mean it to me right now when I see people that when you still run. Yeah. I wish. I could. I got some back stuff though I'm working on your. Products, you got for me man. I got some unbelievable admitted. I would mention one company, but they didn't do the deal yet QUANTA. Question Yeah but definitely I wish my legs. Don't work to say there's another company to that safe. They elsewhere awesome with them did go through, but shit were so. They actually got me thinking about playing ball again. My knee. Surgery on both knees now. Say. They. Not. Like Hey I. can this go for a run, my wife. I don't want to hear you for five days. She goes to Peleton's over there. Like. Man. I said an eight eight. They came into the House and said guess what this works for your height and this we have another seven foot, and through no uses, and here's some fifteen I was like. I gotTA do. Yeah, but it's it's. I I try to women again. Yeah, it was great. That was great but in. Mother maybe. I. In the pool. Cue Shaquille. Yeah like. Yeah, man. Thing and act like a like a west. Back in the water, he's like a great swimmer and I was like I got to go swimming again. I should is hot is. small Alpine organic. The name is, but they. They gotTA CBD creamed like. Like, put his way I was like eight or ten with my knees pain and I'm easily at zero two now. Wow, anybody that's been through eighteen pain. We'll take zero to. Heartbeat now. Me WanNa go play ball again, but probably the first. The but he's GonNa. Be like now. This is not what this. I can't even shoot a hook shot. I I tried it. I one of my the other day and I say you know what I'm just GonNa. Do some I'm not gonna I'm not going to. Your House yeah. I'm not going to jump that much. I'm just going to man I took about six shots life. The bowl with my puppy. All right. Let's shift gears here I. WanNa talk about the dock. Can we talk about the doctor for sure for justice? Name! Yeah you'RE GONNA? We're building up to it. I WANNA. Hear what it is, but you partnered up with with our boy Keegan who's? The Guy Behind what the health and CAL spiracy. Tell us a little bit about this movie I, mean you guys are still in production? Well, we was going to be done shooting in Johm, but with the pandemic and everything. We had to put it back, so we're focused on releasing about a end of the year the film is about social, Justice and Food Justice through the Lens of hip hop our current You know seeing what the health this is like the official. Follow up to what health. And we've John's in the movie Neo My Styles P stick from day. Praise Rory walkup longer. We talked, but he didn't he didn't want to. Talk about it, but s cool like I know is not fair. Everybody like some because we go very in depth Dennis and we're calling out major brains major government all kinds of stuff. Wow, sometimes, it's just everybody. Don't want to talk about it so I get I. Don't hold a personal. Nobody doesn't want to be in the community or anything like that but it's like the idea is. It's addressing food injustice, and like nutritional poverty, and the in the short, also like how certain foods literally are detrimental to the health of people color. I mean just like science pro shown it. all these lab tests, everything and the government still allows it to be sold. And one one of the one of the greatest stories us all was A. we're looking at advertisement from either. One of the major. Baby formula companies, and. And? They showed him handing it to me in the movie. And he's handed to me and I'm reading it and it literally says Mother's breast milk is not sufficient for the growth of of babies. So you tell people which is targeted to people color. that. Thing that that that. You're creating humans since humans thing, that's not good. That's why you need this baby for our. Full of fucking cow's milk. That's detrimental to people. Come already. So seventy percent of all allergies are related to the ingestion of. Animal meal, lactose, lactose intolerance. So have you started off with that? You're not even giving them breast. Like people don't even know how much DNA is transferred to a baby from the mother's breast milk, not even from your mother's Pressman, yeah yeah yeah just another human humans and you and when you dial it back to the actual mother, the mother asks the breast milk actually will change. Is Formula Formula to fit what the baby needs? That's how crazy science if they're like. No, no, no. Don't do that. We gotTA figure now. I got this product here for your. We need to lessen. We need to lessen the male African. Is a reproduction. you can say. What you want to say, we ought to show the deal. Is He? Put Foods in the reason I got involved is the first. Title was they killing US literally spelled any botox. They killing us. Not they are now air. Not Maybe they are without saying that they killing us. Here's what I was like. Keep that title because it literally mean something more than just. It's. It's. Way I just said it is black American period. Yeah, but they change it. Hungry for Justice for justice, but now the official title of the film is they're trying to kill us. The official type, not that they are not is they're. They're trying to kill us. They are trying to kill which and that's what they're showing, and that's what we're showing like. This whole system is set up to where you're eating the certain food. And it's GONNA lead to these multiple different either ailments diseases. Whatever and then when that happens now you have to go get peel. It appeared on worked long enough, because not appeals say that they cure anything they say, help you deal with the with the symptoms, the symptoms of so as duct tape like if you notice, there's nothing out there any of these commercials. They'll give you eighty. Five side effects may cause anal leakage in all this other shit, but Hicks. So he's talking about all these different things, and if that doesn't work, guess what ninety two surgery. Now. The surgeries thirty thousand dollars and have surge. Guess what you gotTa. Do you gotta? Take some more pills to deal with the lack of whatever we cut out of you. Right because you can't produce it anymore yourself or Whether they don't talk, about is right over here. We got this food that you could just eat that site grown from now and we'll. Talk a little bit about how this impacts Black African American communities disproportionately from communities. Could you make that argument that that would be the case whoever the customer is? Yeah, you could say that that is the case, but we've noticed is a portly that. Grocery stores. Are Not. Spread around the country evenly. So you look at. Lower income communities. They'll have a bodega. Maybe they'll maybe have a gas station. And what we've noticed that people call it. Food Deserts, snarly food deserts is nutrition. Desert's is food there, but whereas attrition and You know you gotta pack. Peanuts has got eighteen ingredients in it without. He's just peanuts. What you see is that. These people in certain demographics are predominantly people of color. So yeah, you might have. People with. The outs, outlying factor like yeah. There are some why people that live in this community. But predominantly is people color. So that's what they're showing, and that's what we're showing is that? You're starting off in the negative. Plan right? You know they're already. Let's say you come to into mountain. We gave him a five hour headstart. And we gave them shoes. You know what I'm saying. Now you get around to catch. You know what I'm saying like. There's so many things across the board without giving a whole movie way but Know like for instance were Elliott right now if he wanNA, really see the the difference. I wanted to go to Beverly Hills and tell me to address of the McDonald's in Beverly Hills. And if somebody actually address McDonald's and Beverly Hills fucking lying because there's not, there's not one McDonald's Beverly Hills. You didn't even know I don't even know that. Beverly Hills four point four miles wide supposedly. You will find McDonald's Popeye's. You'll find an one one one One gasoline store in this the highest gasoline into world in the country. That fancy one with the fancy roof. Yeah, I know people still happen. So? That's where you get to see where. They know what they're doing. They're putting things in certain areas. To! Feed. The the White America and the people call in. And just because you. Try to say like that doesn't mean you racist that you've been a part of this. This matrix was so low as like. No, but once you realize that would not the systemic aspect. Sort of reinforces this this the disproportionate outcomes I mean when you look at. Black Americans and the incidence of diabetes and obesity and. You compare you line that up against white populations, and it's pretty shocking and is what we've been taught. We've been conditioned to believe that we have eating certain foods. We've been conditioned to believe that we will have certain ailments and he certain diseases. But nobody coming to tell us you know that's actually preventable over there. You'll have to get this shit. You know what I'm saying, but we think we gotta have a certain way to eat got and most of that stuff. If you trace it back, start off of slavery as well. So you were giving this food and one thing about black people. We will turn anything you give us into go. You give us a fucked up situation. We're GONNA. Make the best of it. The problem is that we're still holding on left of the situation. Every time we eat these certain foods and still keeping us in the system. The one thing is there's a loophole. Is a loophole like the good food available out there. Is available for everybody, but they make you see a dollar hamburger, and you think that that's a better value, but in reality you can get more fruits and vegetables for the week. Under a certain budget than you would, if you were to go bus stake in his process, though Part of the deal is is fast food. Our community. Usually parents worth more than one job. and. It has been a Lotta Times where it's been single parent home either single mom or single dad. mostly mom, so mom doesn't have the time. Or the wherewithal to go get those vegetables. Make it into a meal unless they eat the open. If the the opium they know what to do with the length does in him in you train that one, but in America, which rain hit. Take some money. Go get to you and your sister. Some eat and come back. We'll five dollars go, and whatever you can get for five dollars is going to be your food for the night and the food that you're getting is not food, so it doesn't digest, but it swells your stomach. And so, if you get no nutrients and you're getting no strength than you have no ability to fight. If you got no ability to fight, you would have no ability to reproduce. Billy to reproduce. They lessened your sperm count they add tons of. Obesity has gone to your self. Esteem has dropped and this on the street, so you can't leave your. So. This is constantly put into a situation to make us a monk's selves while being sick. And that's that's where it comes into is why like you said? I did it and why we had to put better restaurant, but I'm GONNA get an argument from somebody. No matter what right when they were like sad, I mean I was talking to shack and he was. So I shouldn't eat fried chicken. Right and I was like now you know the the. Eaten a skin to and there's oil and it's going to get into user Okay Asa. You tell people not to eat chicken. Yeah Yeah. Exactly what? But his film is GonNa hit like you said you didn't get sued a lot. Always sued but I. Know! How to stir it out sure right he's. got a collective effort here like we I. Mean it's funny. I talked to him. Every day like every day and we always coming up with like brainstorm ideas like ooh shit. Let's do this. Do this Oh because you know when they see this. They're gonNA be pissed perfect because we won't be. She's a part. Go His punk rock. Thing exactly exactly. Are. And this is the thing to. If everybody out there, I don't want people to think that Keegan is running this field. I don't know why people I have somebody if I were you I would let them think that because when they get sued, Let. Like Right. I had somebody to play. Disagree with one of my post like I was like you know like all these big corporations and organizations that are that reached out to me about like. Hey, we need to promote the black people, but now you're silent. I'm like fuck y'all like like I'm I'm being honest. I know fuck y'all and they're like. ooh! I hope he sees this, and he drops them from the film lake. I was like first of all. Keegan riposted. Yeah, he's. Young. He's totally about a and second about like. That plays into the whole mindset of like well. I'll go report to the White Guy. the the black. act. You know what I'm saying. The mentality that comes a dad is crazy. That's wild man is, but it's so are troublemaker I am I am, but but I'm only troublemaker because people don't want to hold onto the. Fake Shit. You're troublemaker like. Late I mean Vegan instagram's shit show truth. Hurt so much if you live in a lot. As John. If you live in a lot, the truth is GonNa fucking her. You know what I heard yesterday. Oh my God, it was the greatest greatest day there was a guy heckling. Say something, and he said don't worry about it because he goes, you know what if you throw a brick at a bunch of at a pack of dogs? Only to one that get hit by a brick house, so the only two people who get up exactly right are the ones who will going to say something about what you're doing. Exactly one that the brick hits one. It's them then. They have some big as to. How for like I say I I say. Look I. Don't I might put the shoe out there, but I won't name the name of the shoe. Size of the, but it's always so much for coming along and saying that shoe fits. The word like that's how would be but I was name, anybody odd name out the actions. And I'm like if you fit these actions. Says you, so we have no sponsors for. Retirement. Yeah he's. started. We, don't we do have the? We do have a do have a a crow going on for the film, and it's to to make sure that people are involved in the film, even than what they are given the name of it What is it the crowdfunding? He's going to be on our on our website. They're trying to kill dot com. They're trying to kill us. Up Right now, yeah, so it's IT'S A. Tiny Shoshana. We spell it. They, are they're? They're H. E. Y.. R., E.. There's apostrophe on websites and by the time this movie comes out. John's going to win this argument. I said. was like Oh, So funny. Has Anybody made. A nutrition focused documentary about. The Black and African communities people of Color Community. There was one. will be out on. I won't leave her out. It was on Amazon or otherwise just like healthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, nothing I think before her I don't think anybody else. Really May WANNA focus on people, color, and so shockers is just. I don't think anybody was in a position to make it at the same time. Just I've been fortunate to be able in a position where you know Keegan that we've been friends for a long time and he asked me he was like marijuana. Do a film man, which you. Because he's seen my work and other stuff I've done justice and always speaking up and doing speeches and he's like. Together I wanna I wanNA reach a different demographic. I was like well. You know like let's let's go for the color they need us. He's like yeah, but I don't know house like hip hop. Bye! My first idea was like hip hop. Hip Hop runs everything like. And! Whole Cultural Force in the universe. If you ever if you ever want to understand how strong hip hop is said. If you close your eyes, you can see a bunch of six foot. White guys on skates would Jay z plan in the background, and you just talked about the NHL. What I'm saying like that's how powerful it is the biggest party green. Green but you know look at the biggest Broadway show right now. Here views you know saying so. What about unhealthy Vegan so? We. We only talk about the black unhealthy vegans or Like when you say nutrition like what what are we? What are we? What point pointed? We get well. We are trying to get people to be healthy. That's the that's the thing like there's. There's a big confusion of light veganism and healthy. Begin isil. Like there. There are some products out there. That tastes like Burger tastes like cheese like that and sure in moderation, but we're trying to do is get people to. Begin for health. Is about healing in your movie. you know what is the path for like? What are the solutions that you're? You. Know providing people with best. That's one of the biggest things. I wanted to be solution based with the movie. As one big thing that Toe Keegan so one of them is a we're working on. Actual programs like more learning programs afterwards We're showing how to eat within the movie showing him where to get fruits and vegetables where to get. Nuts, legalzoom's and rice whatever it be, but how to put it together That's beneficial to them as well like. We also want them to feel like are we gave you this problem, but we didn't show you how to. showing him like. A lot of the different studies and everything showing how the reversal of all these diseases. Can Be Incorporated with plant based eating of Vegan eating whatever cases When big things too is that? We were working on a actual meal plan like actual product. Be Very affordable. Ally Vegan items are out of the price range for a lot of people. Actually has some talks with. A store brand whole foods. If you listen, let's keep it going, but we working on a having it to where people who watched the film they could get. These meal plans from whole foods. At an affordable rate! Also have them delivered. Since before pandemic delivery was still. Will hopeful and having delivered to them because when I had a meeting hopefully I told him I was like. You know you can build a whole foods in the hood. Right next door to a mom with six keys. As, she's still not coming. For Her to get all six keys in the car. Get him ready or even if it's a dad. Sound, railway, whoever parent a single parent with kids for them to get them in the car. Get them over giving Eboni we provide a solution. We're literally putting it on the doorstep for there's already made you gotTa, Do, is he the? Saying and I'm not. A busy making it easy as possible and expanding the perimeter, the delivery perimeter, also because those whole foods are far away and we're talking about Amazon. You know they have the capability to reach everybody already delivery like when I have the to where they give it to them. I. While as I have been in talks with other stores as well so if it does hope foods is going work out right well, whatever the solution is, it's gotta be convenient, convenient forcible. You know easy, and there has to be an education days to. Appease she showing. Hey, if you don't want us to make stuff, here's also stuff that you can do at home on your own get. The kids involved I. think that's a big thing to like. We don't evolve our kids in in the process of making our food so when the food is on the table. Like why don't you give me this? is so now. It's like involved in the whole family if they have time because we also know like you said you got single parents or whatever. Working two three jobs I was raised in a single family household. You know my mom was working our ass off because she was a manager for A. Bell south of Pacific Bell South Harrison Bay where we were and as a black person in the eighties as a managing role, a black lady at that she's putting in extra hours that the white guy that were under wasn't in. She had to show that she was cable this drive so. I chicken dinner every night because. It was frozen chicken from Sam's Club. Yeah it was easy I am plugged microwave. Told my daughters abroad. found. But. Then one day I just started putting Koya Web taught me. I just put a whole bunch of dishes in this when they went to use it regards. made the House on just put dishes. Used again. They had to learn how to Cook Analysis and glad you got teaching. It's. It's a trip. It's a thing that hasn't been around. My mother made me learn how to do everything. But yeah, it's I can't movie to come and it's exciting. It's exciting. I now like Cova does like push back a little bit. Yeah, you got some I want to retake. Muscles now. I've been able to work out. I'm framing my body back. I think I was really softened. About body was soft, my body stronger. The power that. A documented that whole it's to really shift. Culture is is super exciting new. Yeah, and it's where look you know the whole. Vegan thing Vegan movement. It's so super whitewashed dislike. Aspiration, of like the well-heeled and you know that needs to get that narrative needs to get shifted. And you know the fact you're doing that is, but you know what I found out When and I'M GONNA say it this way. White folks are Vegan and an to natural way of eating they a more empathetic and they understand. Slavery. What I mean by that they don't know it directly, but they don't want. The animals enslaved, and they understand the horrific treatment of animals, and that black folks at one time was submitted to the same level end still considered. that it's a better feeling when I'm around, vegans than I'm around a flesh eater. I'm around a flesh eater. You know they still think well. I can take my gun and go shoot a deer, and then I'm cool. And I go. Why don't you go hunting way to? Everybody got a gun. Right. Let's see how. Hunting sport is like a sport is when all parties involved part of the game like the animal doesn't have a phone glued. Give. When you think about it, the the overlap between you know how. I would like to think about myself. Approaching this situation and my you know how think about veganism and there's a huge overlap right? This is about like compassion. It's about you know being open to new ideas. It's about challenging your assumptions and. UNDOING! Some of that programming, none of us were born. Vegan we lived certain way in a certain way. We made a change and you know I would like to believe that. It's made me a more compassionate person but it has been interesting to kind of watch how the Vegan community is grappling with what's happening right now and you know some are doing it well, and some are not. And? That's disheartening to me because this is about compassion and and I would hope that everybody. Can you know think about that a little bit in terms of like how they're communicating and navigating? What's happening? Yeah I. Think I think also just that one thing that I saw it was Kinda like Kinda weird. Is that how you'll see? Vegans compare modern day, agriculture animal agriculture to slavery. They, will you? Speak that way then why wouldn't you speak up for the descendants of that same slavery like? They. That's the funny thing like they feel like. They can't speak up about it. Oh No, we only speak for animals like yeah, but if you are going to use slavery as you're, you're speaking note. The new, you can't be hypocritical by remember you know what I'm saying like an ICU that so many times across the board their use their so fast. It's like modern day slavery, okay, well, then his mind, and he slavery, You understand how powerful slavery was and how it trickled down. How do you fix can still be here, but you don't say anything. We enrich row now. They gotta say he's GonNa. Edit this shit. What about fifteen minutes sponsors Froyo? Trust let us. figure out how to put. A Barich, no bullshit I do and I was gonNA. Wrap this up. Now. That was my thing I'm GonNa just keep going until John? pull the plug. I'm. Empty Nester, my my kids away and it just me and my wife, and my puppy and I was like. Hey, what's your name? She goes my name. Is Data married you between? I. Wonder, who did read, it wasn't. Cool Man will thank you. Thank you appreciate it, man! I, really yeah. Yeah, thank you, try and man I gave it to you all right official. All the way to killing. Membership Card in the mail. Is You begin here? Fast. You Trust Me Lake. Is, stereotypes. By have a little bit of Barbecue, sauce! Going to disappear. Oh wait, I was we got about this. This is good, so anybody can do research, so I was found today that they when you talk about the trip down effective of racism, and how it's just been in place for so long, so you know the ice cream man, you know the truck when it comes around it. Has that song playing in the background? So there was a song that actually came from and in the lyrics like Niggers, watermelon in the song, so it is is opposed to right now and they actually it was recorded for Columbia records, and like nineteen, twenty six thirty six. One really. Maybe to anyway yeah, so they can find the song and the video that went along with. It is like this grey and white cartoon depiction of black face, and these they show them being excited about Eating watermelon excited about being. It's just so like those little things they turn at. Of course, they made it like instrumental out of, but ask shows you how? Long she'd has just been thrown into black people's phrases like now, I'll get over it. It's like no, you don't get over it like jingle bells to yeah jingle bells. Jingle bills the national anthem. Yeah. We only had to go into detail. Just people start googling the actual lyrics to the songs. and. He see what people get frustrated. It's like do this. She is right now face, but everybody like. Just over is okay. It's okay. It's not okay. This is going to be a great year twenty one. How about nine hundred twenty? Asian? Thing it was. The raid in twenties, it was like roaring. Wrongly Roy. So the covert twenties. But we gotta come up with this twenties something. Something I don't know what it is, but. I thinking is your vision. I think is just shown us some things. We weren't really looking for This show on a lot of Shit. Twenty show. We we we can do a lot. I'm saying it's like we can do a lot and I say that my my mother passed this year and then the day after buried Kobe died. And that was to Matt, and then we got locked down, and and then the economy happened. crashed and. president trump took over the Fed. And then what happened Lockdown Hillary's in court. for a crazy about the two like hours. He'll today I randomly just hit him up all the time like a just want. To see those up, and I don't know of the game you feeling and that's when I text. He was clean out his mom's apartment at the time. Told me the text some I has. fucking. Respond But he'll. He'll be back later though. But that's relationship. He'll hit me like hey, man. You need to watch this take care. It is like A. Big Brother Mentor kind of like being that. We got so anyway. He me back about his mom light to him. But some told me to hit him up and then right after that is funny because I was in La of the hey I'm in La. How come to La, I'll tell them even. Them. Is a problem if la and he found out later that I. saw. Say Hey I'm so lucky. Adult Chase broads anymore. So. I told them your like I'm in La. He's doing this. And then the next day was Kobe and I was like Shit, so I had to hit him back day, so I had hit him back after that I was like damn I heard about Kobe. Man Like I know. He was coast with Kobe, so a whole. You good man. You need anemia I'm here, but. I want people to like I don't. I hate hidden a people during like bad times because I already know. Eight thousand people hitting them up. It's always good to. People need to notice hit people up during the tough times. Good Times right when it when Shit is fly. Don't hit them. See I. See you. Hit Him with that. You know platform medicinal, but when it's tough times let people know. Hey if you need to call me back, I'm here. If not dude I totally understand I'm not wanting. People like well I called him, and they didn't call me back. It's like ego like let that person deal with the situation how they gotta do just let them know you're. Here if you need me, you probably don't need me, but if so I'm here, yeah, we should read the gift. Back. Good Life Lesson to put a pin in it. You GotTa get John Outta here. Man is getting Nancy Yeah. Right Steve thanks guys. Thanks! So that happened. I'm not quite sure what that was. But it was something right. It was definitely something. MUCH LOVE TO MR! Sally Ann Lewis for sharing their truth today. Please check out. The show notes on the Episode Page where I have enumerated a large catalog of resources, articles, books, films and nonprofits to today's discussion and current events at large. Check out the trailer for they're trying to kill us on my instagram page or on Youtube and let these gentlemen know how this one landed for you by doing it on the socials you can find sally at John Salley on Instagram, and at the John Sally on twitter and John, Lewis is of course at s Vegan on instagram and twitter. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe rate and comment on Apple, podcasts, spotify youtube places share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. I love that and. And, you could support us on Patriot at ritual dot com ford slash donate thanks to everybody who I'll put on today's show Jason. Kam Yellow for audio engineering production show notes and Interstitial Music Lake Curtis for videoing the show and creating all the clips. How do you guys like the new studio? Setups Pretty Bad Ass Jessica Miranda, graphics David Greenberg for today's portrait's decay for advertiser relationships and theme music by Tyler Pi Trapper Pyatt and hurry now. This appreciate you guys I love you see back here in a couple of days with another amazing episode until then. Be well. Treat your fellow brothers and sisters with gratitude. And kindness. Peace. Plans.

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63 | Kyle Kazan, CEO, Glass House Group

Kannaboomers | Cannabis for Wellness

31:18 min | 10 months ago

63 | Kyle Kazan, CEO, Glass House Group

"The Glass House group is a vertically integrated california-based cannabis company with seed the Shelf offerings. They grow process market and sell a variety of cannabis products under several different brands and even operate their own boundaries while some of the big-money players are still in. The sidelines glass else has had real success already and one of the things that makes them really different and interesting is their commitment to social justice that starts at the top with our guest today Kyle Kazan. He is co-founder CEO and chairman of the Glass House group early in his career. Kyle was a police officer in Southern California in one year. He even led the department in drug arrests what he saw and learned in this job. Led him to later get involved in leap law enforcement against prohibition. We discussed this and his path to launching glass house where he promotes diversity with an internship program and a commitment to hiring minorities extends all the way up to the c-suite if you're interested in what's really working in the Cannabis business right now from the chief Executives perspective. I think you'll really enjoy this episode. Also, please stop and see us at cannibal in with a k, We are focused on how cannabinoids is CBD can help you achieve better Wellness in importantly how to find CBD that's trusted and reliable. If you do like the podcast Please Subscribe and please leave a review. So other people can find the chef and here's my interview with Kyle Kazan cannabis is booming and Canada boom is on it. Welcome to the cannibal podcast where we interview experts on the changing story of humans health and Hound from San Diego. Here's your host Tom Stacy his Tom welcome back to the can boom podcast today. We have Kyle Kazan CEO of The Glass House group. Hey Kyle, how are you? I'm good, How are you doing? Really good. Thanks. Thought. It was interesting that early in your career you were in law enforcement and you came away with a perspective on the War on Drugs. I did and you got involved with sleep. I did page after my career law enforcement. I I became a million member but a speaker for four leaf. What compelled you what did you see in your law enforcement career that made you want to take a stand against the War on Drugs? I would tell you the characteristics I've had I was a college athlete. I I really try hard to to be the best at whatever I I do so when I became a police officer, you know, it was crazy to clear very quickly that the best police officers out. There are the ones that are hooking and booking and are you know Finding criminals and taken to jail. So you're looking for love I am trying to take guns off the street things like that and the low-hanging fruit were, you know people in possession of drugs mainly methamphetamine, but you know, if heroin powder cocaine things like that and so over to six month periods out of my five years. So one year out of my five years. I let the department in felony and misdemeanor arrests. And so primarily that was for drug usage and then I would I would raise it up to drug sales by, you know, getting them to you know, share with me who to wage. Go after and so I guess so heavy into it. At first. I felt really good about what I was doing. And then as I got to know the people because they were you know, basically repeat offenders. I got to know them and they became informants and I started learning about their lives and realized, you know, these people are hurting themselves really shouldn't be I mean, I I have a badge and a gun and I'm here to help help stop people getting victimized their property and their person not stopping you from hurting you because as long as I'm as I was doing it, and I've been a registered libertarian since I Was Eighteen, I'm sitting there going and and your listeners. Are you going wait, you didn't you didn't know that going in with your perspective and I would tell you I didn't put together and I would say during the course of my career. I became more and more disenchanted with that and then focused more on gang members and things like that, but and then dead You know I left in nineteen, ninety nine January ninety nine and I joined leap somewhere around 2008. So but by by the time I got to 2008 I literally was just asked by something. That's what do you think of the American Drug War and I said it is complete joke. It's awful. It does. It just does harm it's bad. And that's where they introduced me to leave them like wiped everything that they stood for and still do and still do some speaking on their behalf. Well in this whole topic has been in the headlines all this year as we know have more of appreciation for police officers and what they do and what they should be doing and a lot of times dealing with drugs is maybe a distraction from real crime. I think if you watch the there's a great T show you're probably wrong with it back in the early 2000s called The Wire it shows you what a I mean, look, it's just a stupid game and it's being played by good people on all sides and you may say Well, they're bad people because they're breaking the law. You know, it's just a game and and and I'll bring up some timely Brianna Taylor if if if we had a legal regulated market for drugs. And by the way, I know some religious like what the hell is this guy talking about? Why are you talking about cannabis? But I would tell you legalizing and regulating drugs is the least worst option. There's no great option here because you know drugs alcohol. There are some poor side effects that come with it actually almost take cannabis completely out of that, but when it comes to that off, you know the police officers if they weren't serving a search warrant into that unit. None of that. The officer would have been shot Brianna. Taylor would have been shot bullets wouldn't have gone into a neighboring apartment and we're doing this for drugs. Yeah, that's weird. And so on that level I'm hoping that we start shining a light right now. The light is going all different ways. But if we look at the core route dead Parts of that situation. It's the war on drugs and the core root cause of a mistrust of black and brown communities with law enforcement is the war on drugs. And I think it's the second worst policy the United States ever had second only to slavery eventually you came around to the Cannabis industry you were in real estate for a while and then brought your energy into the Cannabis industry. And I think you said something interesting in that cannabis itself is it's an herb. Some people don't even consider it a drug, right? It's it's hard not to consider. It. It depends how you define drug. I mean I use it as opposed to Advil. I use it for anti-inflammation and a lot of drugs are are are based. So but nobody there's not one recorded case of an overdose from that herb or drug. However, you want to call it but I'm a huge proponent of of the medicinal aspects and quite frankly if you want to use it down. To alter Consciousness. I'm good with that too. As long as you're not driving being in the business. How do we begin to dismantle? The War on Drugs banking is still an issue interstate commerce. It's a very complex Matrix had problems. Where do you think we start Tom? We we've already started and I'm I'm really excited. It's it's not where we need to go. We're going to both agree. I agree to that but we're better than we've ever been in but well since the War on Drugs began and since we made to cannabis illegal, people are still being arrested which needs to stop but to me that's my the the the first focusing let's start putting people in jail for this. Let's start expunging records. Let's do that and it's happening. It's just not happening at the pace that it should be but I think that's meant mm is picking up and I think that you're right. We don't have banking is a pain in the neck and there's all kinds of problems. I try and take the positive side of that page. To say again. We're it's good as it's ever been. It's getting better. We the more that this industry continues to grow exact and and took the money sign the money side matters because that's what flips both Democrats and Republicans to being in favor. Is there unions teachers firefighters police officer getting paid from the taxes. And once that happens, they look at Colorado. I know cart Cory Gardner personally, he has to be in favor of cannabis because if that money went away boy. What a what a faith school would be for the Colorado economy and government and so the more that happens, I think the more good things happen and you see we have ballot measures. I think that's Alabama or Kentucky one, whichever one is not legal as it's going to be on the mount. We're seeing it happen more and more. So but but as far as if you if you go down the list. He brought up safe banking that should happen. Eventually it will happen and what can we do? I think I think what you're doing is great. You're you're putting the word out back and do the same thing that that cannabis. There's far more positives than negatives far more and I think people misunderstand it's not a binary thing where you a state flips and then it's all great job in L. I'm in San Diego. We both know California has a lot of work to do the Legacy Market here still commands the majority of cannabis sales. I believe you talked about tax revenues. There's a lot that's still on the table. We haven't brought those people in yet. So it's an ongoing thing. It'll take some time. You know, I was I I get asked all the time, you know, what happened with California and why is it like an example from States looking to legalize to not be like California and and I say look, you know as a native Californian very proud of my state, you know, love my state. I love the fact that dead. Cannabis and California are pretty symbiotic more so than any other state or region in the world, but we you know, there has been a multi-generational illicit Market here and I don't think we've done a good job to try and make it accessible to the legal Market wage. And I think as you said it's going to take some time it's going to take some effort. Hopefully the taxes become a little bit more reasonable, but I'm actually just like, I'm sure after 1933 when prohibition of alcohol ended. I'm sure there were all kinds of issues but I don't know what they are, but I can't imagine it was just smooth wage and so bumps I think are are to be expected tell us about the Glass House group and what you guys are doing what I noticed from the website is how vertically integrated you are. Yeah, you know what the only reason wage Let's talk. Let's talk The Glass House group that it's better to be lucky than good. Because that's the only reason we're still standing here today. And so many of our you know, so many of the other companies out there with her for all. They you know, some went very asset lights that hey I'm going to go build a brand others said hey, we were able to raise some money. Let's really stretch it and and we'll we'll lease or will take some very hard money loans because of my previous successes real estate. I had a lot of investors ready to to come aboard and we bought our assets, you know, so the closest Spencer we have to you as bud and Bloom and and Santa Ana in Orange County and we bought the real estate too. So we don't have a landlord charge with exorbitant rates and off and then our grows up in Santa Barbara County. We have we have to grow strolling five hundred thousand square feet of greenhouse really high tech and we were lucky we we followed wage Farmers we bought everything for cash and fixed him up. And so we're not as big as we could but we vertically integrated and we did it to keep our costs low and and that has allowed Is to not only survive but you know, we are we're cash flow positive. And and by the way, we pay everybody fifteen dollars an hour. We are working very hard and we should have within a month or two to make sure that every full-time employee has a basic paid for health care. So we're trying to do things. We feel we have a responsibility being in the cage this industry given the history of cannabis and that we need to do things better and and we're working with a woman who you know, she has spent quite a bit of her time and money to help people that are in federal prison for violating the same crime that I violate every single day to get them out of prison. And so we're going to sponsor Somerville did technology try and get him out of prison, but once they're out to sponsor for at least a year with a job and and housing so we feel like we have a responsibility job. More and at the same time to produce the best possible candidates we can at the best possible pricing and so we're really proud of what we grow in our greenhouse and we're we're proud that it's fashion are from Santa Barbara beautiful sunlight. We recycle our water. We really try and do things the right way. It's you know, yes profit matters to you know, all of our team members and to our investors to you know, hopefully build an asset value but not at the cost of doing things the right way by the by our consumers or patients by our team member of our employees choir investors and by the planet there's a lot there and I want to congratulate you on being sort of the bridge between the Mom and Pops, you know, the hippy crowd and the corporations Coca-Cola is not going to get into this until the regulatory environment is a little more clear big businesses doesn't like uncertainty, but you had investors who trusted you enough. To say yeah, let's let's go for this that's a big step and the social Equity piece of it. I think has to be part of anyone going forward who wants to do this as you say in the in the right way sponsor of people may be giving people communities who have been underserved or or Worse an opportunity to prosper in this new market, you know, Tom one of the things that I'm going to be challenged Coca-Cola first of the cannabis companies out there because I think we have a big responsibility than Coca-Cola or Amazon, but I do think they also have and and I play for a church basketball and college for a now a Hall of Fame coach named George raveling and George raveling was on the Tim Ferriss show during the unrest and he said, you know, we need to commit to being an agent for change no matter who you are whether you're black white asian doesn't matter. You need to commit to being an agent for Change and one of the things that I would be challenged the other club. Is is for one, you know 1% of your Workforce. We're about three hundred people. So that would be three people to do a paid internship to walk. You know, the the most vulnerable the the weakest socio-economic area and go get and give some paid internships or easy you have to paid internships has off because those folks they're getting me a job to make money. And so they won't be able to accept an internship unless you do that and most importantly make sure that the c-suite is part of this is because this is this is how you take kids. You know, my son my two boys, they spend time with a CEO. They understand my thinking they understand how to interact with Executives name is the company come by the house. They come by the office and so two kids when I was an inner-city school teacher after college for four years in South Central the the life's the life that that my birth. This were living the life that my children live are two different and the big word that we hear today is privileged and that's and so the way to help bridge that Gap is to make sure that the next generation gets gets a ladder into the c-suite. So at least they see a world that they're not used to and I'll tell you time when I was a school teacher. I taught with the best and worst who was a Dumping Ground for teachers that were all burned out and it was also a place where the most motivated would go and we used to take our kids every two or three months several several classrooms, you know, like three or four other teachers, we would commit to a Saturday and we would take our kids out for a a day at the beach and what's amazing is in South Central Los Angeles or fifteen minutes twenty minutes away from the beach and I would say 70% of the kids had never even seen it. And so and so one of my students reached out to me and and basically said what a big impact those outings had on him. And so to me I thought how can we do this in a business so that you take such a high school kids and you say look come look at what a c-suite looks like come look and and set your goals. We all start doing crappy jobs. Hopefully I was I wash McDonald's I may have made your Big Macs some time ago, but at the end of the day, I always knew where I wanted to go. My dad start a company was a CEO of it and took a public on NASDAQ. So I had access and I was really privileged to that was where what I aspired to do. How do we bridge that? And I think those the communities that are in that are lower on the social working out economic pole. We need to make sure we extend that ladder to those people to go all the way to the top and I think if every company in America dead, Said I'm just going to we're going to do 1% Pay fifteen bucks an hour to these kids and make sure that they get some real time and real access to the c-suite as part of learning business office. I think I think you might find there's a wonderful generation of people that otherwise, you know wouldn't have dreamt as big well and you talk about the war on drugs and you know, again the wire back in communities finding that they don't have options and if you're you are showing them an option and nurturing them along the way, you know, that's internally but as you serve your customers, it seems that you're thinking along those lines too because you have several different brands right for different demographics. We do Glass House Farms is our staple brand that's we just came out with a Growers Choice a little bit of expensive but we have some limited runs that we get. We have some some people that are deep into the industry and have been kind of I would call them originals and they have access to some really cool strains wage. So some of those when they grow specially are Folks at the farm and we have some we have some Growers have been growing for twenty-five years. And so when they pick we pick some we're putting him specially in jars and I'll tell them I'm an active. I'm an active user myself really really proud of that. It's one of the I'm sure other brands would do the same but we'll give a full money-back guarantee. If you're not happy with your product number one want to know why but you will stand behind you and we really want you to have a good experience with our product and know that you know, all this doesn't just go for us. But as you as you know, Tom we in California and cannabis are faced with the highest testing standards of any egg product in any state. I mean, I I actually own some pecan orchards in southern, Georgia. We it's a joke compared to what we have to deal with in cannabis, but I look at that as a great Challenge and it's great for the consumer because when you buy for the legal Market, you know, you're getting the best job. It's not just me. There's you know, you know all the other brands out there too and when you and so I'm just super super excited. Another one is filled. I don't know if you do concentrates Tom, I wasn't home number, but I'll tell you what when you open up and and again field I really love there's also some other great concentrate Brands out there too. But when you really especially live rosin which is made without any solvents wage and I and I'm hoping that people learn more and more about distillate resin and rosin to find out you know about the differences of them. But when you smell the the the flower and it's been concentrated and you do a little dab man, I will tell you and I'm not sure typical dad profile, you know, a 53 year old guy, but I love dabbing field. I'm going to have to try that on. Yep. Be dabbing his scared me a little I mean anything with a blowtorch. I kind of don't want to get involved with but puff go has something that doesn't require a blowtorch. It's got a little wage. It's it's got a little porcelain cup. And so I have to I have to admit I have a 20 year old son who has a card. He hasn't been digital card. So I'm not buying a new law. He sort of my dad Butler. He's in college and we share it together. So he sort of teased it up but there's no flame involved when you were a law enforcement officer did not dream you would be doing dabs with your son has a law enforcement officer dabs were and I didn't have a son I had no children. So but then the fair wage is absolutely not and I'll admit some on your show that I have admitted publicly. I did, you know, I I was I always hate hypocrites that say, you know, whether the Republican birth Oh crap, you know like Nancy Pelosi and her hair that bothers me. It's like look, yor you make the law you enforce the law follow the law just you know, if other people don't they do that their Peril, but you shouldn't smoke and so when I was a police officer, the only time I smoked marijuana was when I was in Amsterdam on my on as part of my honeymoon with my wife, my wife called me out and I said look I play I play Blackjack in Las Vegas. It's not legal in California at the time. And so but but to answer your question straightforward, no, I didn't see myself ever getting in this industry. And in fact, even when I was pushing for legalization, like improv nineteen and the 2011 still and I was getting calls from people asking you invested. I just said that that's just for me only as the movement got forward. I met more people and then I and also I I was asked my police career started using cannabis more and wage. Just had learned a lot more through the process would lead and so it was a it was a progression. So it's a windy crazy life. I've lived so far and I feel extremely fortunate but but that was extremely long answer for no way. Well I'm with you. I mean, I didn't touch cannabis for a couple of decades until I read she realized it is legitimate medicine. My brother had epilepsy sadly he passed away because of I believe the Pharmaceuticals that were too hard on his body and last week. I talked with Kyle Turley place the NFL and he says cannabis saved his life. So I think as you say that we're continuing to see the stigma fall back and people realize that remember the old commercials is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Those were very effective at scaring Our Generation away. I'm sixty and there's more Boomers coming back now probably not dabbing yet, but maybe we'll give it a try. You know, you know, I like topicals. I like Edibles when I can't sleep. I take a five milligram edible and it works like a charm. I'm not you know, I don't know if a hangover I'm not risking anything the way you are with some Pharmaceuticals. So I think as more and more people find that out we're going to have broader acceptance and I believe it's on the ballot this fall in five five or six states. So I think that's I can I ask what? What do you what is what is your edible of choice? If you don't mind sharing I like Kana ke naha. They have a nice. In fact that comes in a 10 milligram gummy and I split one with my wife and we both sleep very well standing by the way. That's one of my favorite things to do with dabbing is if I go a little bit stronger I brush my teeth. You know, now we sound like two old guys talking brush my teeth, you know dental floss and then my son and I will dab and within fifteen wage Mister so I just drift to sleep. It's nice and it's not an ambient or something, right, you know, a lot of people who have been socially drinking for a couple of decades you start to get concerned about your liver or other things happened, you know, here's an herb that as you said has never killed anybody and it's proven safe. So I think more and more people are finding that out and Tom, you know you and I, you know being in that same sort of generation, you know, I live in I live in a city called or an area called Palos Verdes and it's it's affluent a lot of older folks like, you know, when I say older, you know forties fifties sixties seventies and I find that there's there's can of curiosity and what gets them over is when people start talking about pain and inflammation and even we talked about covid-19. But I believe that I mean I take we have a CBD tincture. I take it four times a day because I like my inflammation down and think maybe if it's just unfortunate I get coded it might give me a better outcome. And so far we've seen it with people in our company that have used it completely anecdotal but I point to either our project or Papa and Barkley or Mary's medicinals as a great starting place because you know face that as you get older, you know, you deal with paying a little bit more often and why take an Advil when that can damage your kidneys why take opioids when you could get addicted to it why take an and I'll share this with you. My wife has had both of her knees off partially replaced the second the first time she didn't want to take Norcos. So she took our our very strong CBD, which is low THC wage. Him, but low and she found great relief from it to the second time short to st. John's Hospital in Santa Monica. They were going to they told me they were going to hook up a an opioid pump for 15 days to just release opioid into her body. And she said no way I don't want it when she told the nurse that the anesthesiologist came in and said, you know, my wife's name with dinosaurs died. And this is major surgery. She has no I had it she was what are you going to take? And she said I'm going to take CBD and and the woman was saying, all right. I need to understand more why you would do this and that's all my wife took was was our Glass House wellness, which is the same as our mama super and but it was just tinctures and it and she found great relief. If you take a little bit, you know more on the dropper it will get you high and and you know, when you're in serious pain, it's not the worst thing and also to help you go to sleep. So I'm I'm immensely proud. And you know, very good friends with Adam Grossman who is the founder of Papa and Barkley his dad is on the box because that helped his dad, you know who was sadly fighting cancer and end up losing his life change it. So that's the best way I think for people that are kind of curious to to enter in and realize this is a wonderful wonderful or every fan of America has stories like this. Well, they will have once cannabis is more widespread, but I gave my father pop in Berkeley and he had metastatic prostate cancer wage the bones and he didn't complain about the pain at all. And I know it's a very painful condition. My wife is taking CBD every day. She broke her neck last year. We went through the whole opioid thing and yeah, I got away from those as fast as we could. You don't want to become friends with those their short-term acquaintances. She's not taking CBD and we ran out this week and she noticed so I ordered some very quickly well, You got my email address. I'd love to you know, put some in your hand and you know, if your wife and you and you know, boy, you've had a tough go with your your dad and your brother and and your wife's so I'm glad that you're friends with your boss because I I am I'm always handing it out to friends and family and just saying, you know, give this a try. Yeah, absolutely Kyle. Is there anything that we have income that we should you know, I know I know my team members that listen to your show are going to say hey, how come you didn't guide them to our store? So if you don't mind a Shameless plug we would certainly welcome any and all all visitors in Los Angeles. We have the pottery to dispensary up on desks and La Brea and Santa Barbara. We have one of the two legal dispensaries up there called the pharmacy with a gasket in Berkeley. We have the pharmacy with an f and like I mentioned the best entree in is the Glass House wellness or the mama Sue. They're both made from a a strain off. That's called jellyfish said it's really really good. And you know, I think it's just a you know, I add it to my healthy lifestyle will definitely look those up and for people who want to look you up online. Is there a place we should go? Yeah, they're going to start a Twitter account with me. But if they if they just go to The Glass House group.com, they'll they'll see me and my the spelling of my name and if there if they could not sleep and and CBD and dabbing didn't work or the edible didn't work and they Googled me there's so much out there and that will put him to sleep. It's great for insomnia. Well great. Thanks so much for taking time out of your busy day to chat about this really great to get your perspective. And I know our our listeners will enjoy this episode. You're welcome. Thank you for doing what you do because it's it's invaluable that you're spreading to see the other one that I thought. I was asleep l e a p. C c. It's that's worth, you know that social justice and that's from from retired police officers judges and DA's if if people are feeling change. That's a charity worth worth while and they're out there trying to fight the good fight to make Society better. Thank you so much Kyle. Thank you. Have a lovely day. You've been listening to the cannibal podcast with host Tom. If you like the show and want to know more, please check us out at cannibal with a K, And please leave us a review of the Apple podcasts or wherever you will listen. See you next week.

Cannabis cannabis Tom Stacy officer California Kyle Brianna Taylor San Diego Kyle Kazan CEO Coca-Cola Cannabis industry America Advil Santa Barbara Berkeley
Director Jason Hehir of The Last Dance

The Full 48

41:38 min | 1 year ago

Director Jason Hehir of The Last Dance

"For businesses around the world today isn't a restart it's a rethink that's why they're partnering with. Ibm to change how they work from. Supply chains to customer service. Let's put smart to work visit. Ibm DOT com slash. Think to learn more. What if the forty eight hour beck senior? Nba Writer for bleacher report. It is as sixty three of MBA. Locked down my guest today. I think might be the. Mvp of locked down He's given us the high quality basketball that we'd otherwise be missing and some high quality entertainment and in this Unprecedented sports drought. He gave us something we all really need. Which is content. We needed something to discuss debate. So now like to welcome and thank the director of the last dance. Jason Hare Jason. Welcome thank you for giving US content. Thank you for having me on to be here. I imagine you're getting more. Thanks and congratulations than anything else. Right now aside from some of the critiques to that come along with this but truly this thing came along and obviously you guys moved it up but at a time when we all need it so much We're eight episodes down and to to go this coming Sunday. How are you feeling just about everything? All of it. So far the way it's been received again the fact that you've been able to kind of say our sports appetites this this weird moments in in our sports and societal history are is it gratification. Is it just the the relief of having this thing out there in the world? What's been your feelings several weeks? There's a there's a cocktail of one is certainly relief because we're working quite literally day and night on this for the past two and a half years gratification. Certainly in that in that people Are Responding positively positively as they are and and that. I think the most pride that my team and I take in this is is the people who have reached out to us and said that this brought them together with their families for a couple of nights every Sunday. And it's been just kind of a source of escape for people for a couple of hours and that they look forward to it so that is enormously gratifying for us because we worked extra hard to get this thing out with the accelerated schedule. And so anytime I get a message from either someone I know or or a complete stranger saying you know my dad and I watched this Oregon charities with my daughter or whole family sits down and no one thinks about the virus known thinks about quarantine for two hours every Sunday night. That's that makes me Really happy because that's the essence of of why we do what we do absolutely up so when. Espn rolling this out the PR team was kind of to provide a lot of us with the screeners for episodes one through eight so I got to see a lot of that dance. I know a lot of my colleagues out in the media. World did as well so the only two that we haven't seen and I'm actually excited about this. I now get to experience in real time on Sunday with with everybody else but at the same time. I'm kinda feeling naked on this because I've been I've been planning podcasts around it of trying to anticipate and thematically who don't want to bring on and for which angles But I'm I'm glad not to have it. Is there a reason that they held those two back for any purposes other than just? Keep a little suspense out there or or or or are we gonNA have some grand revelation in the final two episodes As you alluded to maybe on Jayjay REX podcast. We're GONNA find out that Michael Jordan really isn't alien from outer space. I don't think there's any kind of Robert durst kill them all moment in these things we well know how the story ended in. Utah in June of Ninety Eight. You'd have to ask a ESPN and Netflix. Why they wanted to hold back. Screeners I can tell you from from my perspective is that we're still finishing these things so they weren't ready to go out in time and we were not completely done. We have not delivered episode ten yet to Netflixing. Espn so We're certainly you know at the one inch line with that right now but there's just so many little things that have to be done in order to to to make this thing in into what we want it to be so. I haven't been concerned with that same way that I wasn't concerned with. It was news to me when they said they were going to air this thing on bleeps on. Espn something. That I'd never would have even dreamed to ask for is that kind of That kind of rawness and unvarnished presentation but a lot of these things are made in pay grades way above my head and trying to tread water here and get these things out the door in time. I'm glad they went with the unbeaten route and that there have both options. If some people are sensitive to that that's fine. I understand it on this podcast as my listeners. Know we we can curse freely but I appreciated the fact that especially you look these guys are competitors and it's Michael Jordan. He's going to say things that are not always politik or Or kind and so. I like hearing the unvarnished version. I'm glad they made that call in terms of of so just actually real quick here so for the listeners. We're recording this up at four thirty eastern on on Wednesday so the fact that you still have not completely finished up every last detail of episode. Tennis is fascinating. I imagine that is probably not the norm for something like this and I know obviously this the accelerated nature of this force. You into this but Is it is it a little uncomfortable now. It certainly keeps the exciting No netflix normally likes to have things for months before in order to properly promoted in in in in rule. It out whether they want to so four days is Is Quite the aberration them? But no at this point. We've been living our to our on this thing. So four days to me feels like about four years right now terms of the amount of time. We would have to catch any kind of errors. And that's really what it is right now is just quality control Few members of our staff independently watching this thing to make sure there's no misspellings. There's no Graphic mistakes. There's not a seventy two when it should be a seventy three things like that. But by large the storytelling aspects of it in the aesthetic in creative aspects of it had been put too bad right now just quality control and making sure that that everything is the way it should be. You mentioned we already know how the story turns out. Michael Jordan hits one of the most iconic shots in history. One that he probably should have left well enough alone and just going out on so I if you can answer. I assume you can. Please tell me Brian. Russell is in the final episode. Talking about the push off and Carl Malone is in there talking about the steel. We do discuss both of those things. I can't tell you who discussing it but we do discuss. I'm looking forward to to those for sure arts where we're what four weeks in it's week five on on. Sundays is the final two episodes. Have you gotten any reaction for Michael himself along the way or through his people? Do you have any sense of of how? And I don't know if he got to see any of this in advance either if he's watched it or whatever but do you get any sense through channels or from him directly about how he's received this I don't we we don't have I certainly don't have that relationship directly with my goal. And then his his his team we we've been finishing these episodes as they've been airing so that's been juggling than spending a couple of plates so when these things were premiering episodes one and two we were still hard at work doing seven eight nine ten so my conversations with with all of the partners or more relevant to the episodes we are finishing of course every night when it airs. I'll be Sunday nights. Those of us on staff and those of us who were in contact with all the parties Espn Net flicks Jordan Brandon an MBA. Were all texting each other Often it's just like the memes that are popping up and it it just kind of a thrill and we get a real kick out of seeing what's resonating with people things that we may have forgotten week one the former Chicago resonant graphic was something that I had long forgotten how that was not meant to be cute or certainly not disrespectful but it was not meant to be cute or funny. I was just saying to to the viewer who may not know that he's from Chicago. This is why Barack Obama is is Authorized to talk about this as someone who is there to give a first hand account. Everyone knows he's a former president but I want to save the former Chicago resident. That's why he's telling you be affected. My Pat John. Michael Wozniak the security guard. I don't think anyone could predicted that. He would be on a T. Shirt if if I had to choose people who are beyond t shirts and fake wings posters and things like that John. Michael would have been weighed on the but it's it's All of us get a kick out of that because some of US got to know him a little bit during the making of this and he passed away in January and his family is so proud of him in the Jordan family considers him family of their own so all of us got a kick out of seeing John. Michael Levine in that way in a way that he would have loved to. Yeah he was insisted on keeping that hairdo and and And you know giving Michael Shit. He was one of the few guys. Those guys. The SNIP brothers were. Were a few of the people who are allowed to do that. And Michael loves that and that's why they were around him so that's the kind of interaction that we have. It's not autumn like this or I do like that. It's just that kind of stuff of of US enjoying people enjoying it. No all of that is has been great and the fact that is producing all these these I mean. Everything produces museum now. It's it's just kind of the time we live in. So it's you know you as a as a as a filmmaker can obviously think about that or anticipate that going in. I'm sure but it's That that that that can add another layer for viewers. I think it's kind of cool strange at times. There's been some funny stuff. The onion got you pretty good the other day to did you see the onion story did that. That's the most surreal one that's you really transcended if your name is in the young and a normally it's not good news at all But I know that people have been confused by the time line and I was Honored that the onion is the highest form of flattery. So if I could frame anything probably that one though and that one was good. They're they're great. What's the most interesting thing you think you personally learned about Michael along the process? You had all these hours in front of him. Not to mention the hours and hours you spent talking to other people who had worked with him been with him in various capacities. Everybody's taking their own impressions out of this about whether well it's just. This is what we already knew about Michael. We knew he could be. You know a bully with his teammates. Or there's all these different things that I think are maybe adding more layers to what we think we already knew. And maybe a little bit more vulnerability in in the in the present tense and seeing those interviews but for you as a basketball fan. Who's been immersed in this for the last four years when you walk away? What's the thing that that you feel like? You appreciate differently about him. There's a couple of things one is just how human he's become to me in the course of making this in the course of even watching it on seeing people react to it because my goal for any of these stories that we tell is to try and de icon is these people and make them into human being. So we're not for instance for a pass project. We're not telling the story of Andre. The giant telling the story of Andrei Rousselot will became that character. But I'm far more interested in in D. mythology these people and seeing how they're similar to US rather than how they're greater than us. We all know why Michael is greater than us. But I'm I'm way more interested in his relationship with his dad and his mom and seeing what kind of similarities there are there you know if I saw a video of my mom reading a letter from home to her When I was a freshman in college I probably would tear up to and an humanized me to see Michael. React the same way the other aspect of it is is when you look at it on a granular level. Just how difficult. It was year after year to do this. And that's not just Michael Book. That goes for the entire team to do what they did. Anyone any coach will tell you that. Repeating is the hardest thing to do on sports. It's not winning the title. It's it's it's winning. The second one Pat Riley called it the disease of more that everybody wants more credit adulation more money more playing time and to be able to strike that balance in and recreate that formula two years in a row is it. That's why back to back. Titles so rare to do with three years in a row you're talking about you know it's one of the million and to do it six times in eight years. I firmly believe will never see that especially in the NBA ever again. So seeing how difficult it was in ninety two ninety three when that scrutiny really started soon to come down on him and team as a result indirectly when scrutineers. Coming down on Michael and going down to against The Knicks and Michael. Not Talking to the press anymore. They easily could have gone off the rails. There and the Knicks easily could have gone to the finals that year. And now you're talking about two titles one and maybe Michael Leaves to go play baseball. When he comes back. Only one to so many times that this could have gone off the rails and it didn't so I think it opened my eyes to just how difficult it is to accomplish what he accomplished look at the players of today and how great they are. But you don't see anyone winning with the consistency at Michael. Those goals. No and I think you're right Jason. The idea of six championships in eight years and I know people often speculate about okay. Well maybe they left on the table because of the first retirement and going to baseball or the second retirement because they decided to break up the team and all this I. I'm kind of is lean towards Sam Smith's point of view. Which is that you know one way or another. It was going to be probably six Max no matter how you stack them up. Because of attrition and fatigue and all these other things but you're the modern era now with the amount of movement. I think it's it's absolutely impossible. We truly will not see just we. We thought we'd never see what the Celtics did again from the sixties and we haven't they're they're going to be the last true dynasty that dominated a decade like that Is it was a homegrown team by large. I mean you could say that. They signed dentists and they certainly made acquisitions where they didn't draft in and grow them within the franchise but by and large these are the core of it was spill Michael on Scotty and of course. Dennis came along to be that experts in the second three peat but they were there they were drafted by Jerry. Krause in well. Michael wasn't but but Scotty was in Phil was hired by him. And Jerry saw something infill. That no other coach. No other franchise saw because spill was last out of other offices coming in with his Panama Hat. Hawaiian shirt and and Jerry was not that kind of Guy Jerry's on a counterculture eccentric figure himself but he saw something in Philly. No one else did. He saw something in Scottie in Horace and he saw something in Bill Cartwright that he knew they needed and he was wanting to be criticized. Give Up Charles Oakley so there were decisions that were made that weren't akin to that the structure of the construction of a super team today. It wasn't like three of the biggest stars in the League decided. Hey let's let's try and play together and win a few in a row. They won six out of eight and it was not contrived Super Team. It was built from the ground up step by step by step. Yeah no it was very much. The traditional It was it was his krause said the organizations win championships like he literally was correct. The spirit of that may not have been intended or or or interpreted in the way that that was flattering but it does take an organization or at least it did at that time because a guy like you have to have a player of Scottie Pippen's caliber and to have identified him as krause did That was huge like that. That's that's the difference between being a dynasty and not most likely and that's that's a call he that he makes that pays off support for the full forty eight comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken loans. You Know Finding Your Dream. Home is awesome my family and I we found ours last fall. 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Because quicken loans is more than just a lender get started online at rocket mortgage dot com slash full forty eight equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states and MLS consumer access dot. Org Number thirty thirty eight mortgage by quicken loans push-button get mortgage address. This a little bit about you know. Obviously Krause was was not available. Unfortunately he passes before you get a chance to ever involve him in all of this so part of the critique that then comes behind it as well. This painted him in such a bad light. He can't speak for himself others. I think maybe spoke on his behalf a little bit. Is there anything that you would have liked to have been able to? Do you know short of being able to go back in time to win Jerry. Krause was still with us. Is there anything there that you've been sensitive to about the way that people have critique your the documentaries portrayal because it has been pretty hard on him and I think that's the lasting impression people got well? There's a couple of things about that and that we didn't make an effort to differentiate jerry the businessman in Jerry. The Front Office guy from Jerry. The Person Bill Wennington speaks about him in those terms. Steve Kerr speaks about having those terms. Steve is the one who says you know. Jerry was a good man. He just could not get out of his own way. And it's not painting him as villain showing Michael in the other guys giving him. She is not tantamount to painting him as a villain. My goal in showing those scenes from the fact that they're just behind the scenes gems. And it gives you a sense of what life was like behind the scenes for the bowls I would guess in what life is like behind the scene for a lot of pro teams is that there's a lot of egos. There's a lot of testosterone on. There's a lot of ships. Offing Inbal busting. That goes on. And if you're going to be a part of those environments you have to kind of harden yourself to that way I also wanted to expose people to Jerry went through on a regular basis and you know this was a guy who desperately wanted to be accepted and to be one of the dudes who was welcome on that bus in one of the guys that he he was never going to be that and it's almost tragic the that tragic flaw that he kept on trying and as we all know the hardy had tried to be accepted by a group like that the worst going to go. Sam. Smith's at best me said you know he now finally is a boss and he just wants to be accepted by the cool kids. The coolest isn't a world that Pointer Scotty Pippin and Michael Jordan so I I have an enormous amount of respect for him I. It's my one biggest wish with this. Doc is that he would have been alive for me to interview him and give his side of the story but it does pay me to hear people think that we intentionally painted him as a villain or that. We exaggerated his behavior in any way to paint him as Michael Spoiled. Because that's not the case I was trying to to present the most accurate depiction of what was causing the friction in that locker room. And that's what we did and you don't need me to defend you on this count Jason but I will anyway just briefly but that I wasn't covering NBA back. Then but I remember the coverage back then and I sorta covering the NBA in ninety seven. So I'm coming in to the. You know covering the Lakers at that time but I remember what that dynamic was what the coverage was and I you know to my eyes as as a reporter like you did what you had to do. Which was you gave the portrayal of exactly what happened. If people want to look at it as Michael the players bullying him will yeah. That's kind of what happened. And it's not taking their side. It's showing the accurate version of what was happening in real time back then and you know his track record speaks for itself and you had plenty people speaking to that as well so like his his his accurate in his skills a GM are unquestioned. And then you know. The personal foibles or the way people treated him. I mean I I think you just. You gave an accurate version of of what the history was. And we're krause wasn't that so I thought that was a little off base. Let me just throw the other one at you. That just keeps coming back up and I. I know you've addressed some of this too but I'm curious. How how you're taking the critiques of the well. You know this is not whether it was. Ken Burns talking about not being a true documentary. True journalism or other writers. I've seen critique the aspect of it where they say oh this is somebody said it was Jordan brand management and all these things because of his involvement in it. I know going look like the this could only be done with the footage that was available with the NBA and Jordan participating so to me. I just viewed as well. That's just part of the bargain. This if we if we all want to see this and if you wanted to make it like that was just baked in. But I'm sure you're sensitive to this too is a filmmaker and documentarian that that there is a balance there. So how have you were you? Were you prepared for that kind of backlash or that line of Critique and how comfortable are you yourself with just you know. I don't want to even assume that there were trade offs. Whatever trade off you believe maybe had to be made to create this I? I always assumed that there's going to be backlash when we get into any of these stories because you have governing bodies that that you have to report to who have the right to have editorial input. It doesn't mean that they have final say but they certainly have input. They'll give you their thoughts in their critiques and their suggestions and just part of the note process. So whether you're working with a network like that or you working with the League and oftentimes when you're telling a story of an athlete especially prominent one you're going to be working with the League. Because you're licensing the footage from them and you can only use it with their permission so it would be I. I would understand people Taking umbrage with the approach if we had said okay. We didn't approach the gambling. We didn't approach his His political reluctance political resident reticence. We didn't approach his dad's death. We didn't approach any of the conspiracy. Theories surrounding is leaving to play baseball for eighteen months or the conspiracy theory that he had something to do with his dad's we weren't approaching these things head on and getting a lot of perspectives including michaels on them. Then I would say that's a fair criticism but there were no trade offs and and so for someone to save just because you know Michael editorial input in this or the League editorial input or his tomb is brand was okay Ben. Show me the example of where we had to sacrifice story and I had to sacrifice my reputation as someone who makes these films and is trying to tell a comprehensive on a story. You can't find any of those because I can tell you the stories that we wanted to tell we told and we had the participation of the people that I wanted to tell them but at the end of the day I am a storyteller and there's elements of of journalism in project like the last dance. But what I try to do is render any story as fairly and accurately as I can with with the nuance and texture to present the most comprehensive full picture that I can and that's what we did here. I'm proud of it and Michael took clear this up because people I think assumption or they make this logical leap. Michael didn't have final cut. Not His camp didn't have final two who couldn't despite something and say no that that that piece is out or you can't pursue that line of of story. No because well would have been an ongoing passionate discussion if they tried to spike any story or any piece of footage or piece of of You know archival footage or or or or verite footage because you wouldn't have just had me Rebutting that you would have had netflixing. Espn who paid a lot of money to have this property and you need to look no further than than the Oscars from a few years ago to to to see whether or not espn is interested in telling full comprehensive responsible stories. These are not people who are willing to put their reputations on the line either so I felt very safe getting into this arrangement because I had the backing of net flicks. Espn and. Because I got to know Jordan and his people for a long time before we even roll cameras we had long discussions about what should be in the and we all agreed that if it's going to be considered a comprehensive telling of the story of the Bulls Dynasty through the Lens of the ninety seven ninety eight season. Then you have to tackle head on some of the issues that we tackled in this. There's been some people drill down further. There's been like okay well. Why wasn't you know? Craig Hodges interviewed about the politics part of their lives in Sonny Vaccaro part of the the Nike store. Whatever and I know there's only so many interviews and so many hours and everything else to and I don't know what was left on the cutting room floor. People have noted that Lebron who's who grew up idolizing Jordan. We haven't seen heard from him yet and I'm not sure if he would have made sense or not either but as those. Come out again curious if you're sensitive to any of that or if that if that matters at this point. I mean you've you've told a very comprehensive story and there's you know we all know again as a reporter myself. Obviously there's always another. There's he's another voice out there. There's always like five more perspectives. I could gotten but at some point you say you know what I've got a complete picture. Is that the way you you look at this when you hear some of those names thrown out as as being absent yeah I can. I can address a couple of those specifically was sunny. We did interview sunny and we interviewed George Raveling and I was interested at the outset and a lot of stories was interested in about three hours worth of stories. It could've made it into a thirty hour documentary but the origin story of how Michael got to Nike ships. Depending on if you ask David Falk George Raveling Carol deloris Jordan or Michael Himself. The one common denominator is that deloris Jordan and James Jordan compelled Michael to get on that plane and go up to Portland and have a meeting with night and I was much more interested in that fifty minute window that we have five. I have about five to eight minutes to tell that entire story of his Tom at Nike Emma Genesis of the Jordan brand. I was much more interested in what happened after he signed that piece of paper and how he came to sign that piece of paper. So Sonny can say it's all him Michael Savage George Raveling. Who got him there? And you know I'm sure. A million people have a million different versions of the story. That got Michael to sign the paper the truth. I don't care what I cared about was after signed the deal. What happened culturally. What they expected that shoe to do. And what actually did and how indicative that was of Michael's rive to pop cultural prominence. So that that's A. That's a choice that I made was not to go down that road and show you all the different versions will now I care about what did sign a deal? It doesn't matter who compelled him to do it. He did it. He put his his ink on that paper. And then we know what happened up until now billion dollar rent or multi doing belt and then with Craig. Hodges it was to me that we address the Republicans buy sneakers to try and be we express both sides of it and we allow Michael to weigh in on how he felt about it and how he now each of those boxes. I've just listened to you or checked for businesses around the world. Today isn't a restart that's why they're partnering with. Ibm retailers are keeping their systems up as millions of orders move online call centers are using IBM Watson to manage an influx of customer questions with AI and solutions built on the IBM cloud or helping doctors care for patients remotely. Today we're rethinking. How business moves forward. So let's get to it. Let's put smart to work visited. Ibm DOT com slash. Think to learn more the great thing about the documentary one of the great things about it in every every piece of things to me has been compelling and there's every piece of it you say wow you covered a lot of ground in those five minutes. I could have seen an entire hour just on that. Which is both a credit to you and a credit to the the just the vast tapestry that Michael and those bulls teams gave us. There's so much there so I'm curious. If there was one subplot that you would have loved to have gone deeper on. Just pull out and do an entire hour just on this one thing that you had to get through in five minutes. Which which of those many many subplots would it have been? I was fascinated at the outset of this. Read just about every book that has the words. Michael Jordan Chicago Bull in it and I was fascinated with particularly playing for keeps by David Halberstam and the section early on in that book will we talk about Michael. Transformation into a kid who was A. Jv player his sophomore year into the number one player in high school in a country and that took place over two years his emergence his growing five inches in the summer and then his emergence as a dominant player junior year hop pairing his his high school coach having to lie about his credentials to get him into five star basketball camp because he wasn't even invited to go there initially he was so off the radar the UNC. Coaches Dean Smith and Roy Williams recognizing that they had lightning in a bottle with this kid is diamond in the rough Roy Williams and Michael wanted to go to five to see how he measured up against National Competition. Dean Smith wanted to keep it a secret and did not want to go there. Michael of course being who he is even back when he was seventeen years old was dying to go and indeed wet and two weeks in a row was. Mvp against guys. Chris. Mullin letty bias. In and and Patrick Ewing and Chris Carter the receiver. Was there as as a as a basketball player. Michael wrote letters to Uva and UCLA asking them to come see him play and those letters went unanswered. It just gives you a sense of how off the radar. This kid was in. We had this epiphany in the edit room about a year ago that this is an underdog story not just Michael but of all of these guys that did not deserve Michael Scottie Pippen had no business believing that he would be in the NBA. Let alone one of the top fifty players ball time but his will got him there. He wasn't even on his his basketball team when he went to junior college. Noaa Junior College or and he somehow willed himself into scholarship willed himself into the NBA and is now in the Pantheon of the greatest players of all time. Dennis Rodman didn't pick up a basketball until after Highschool Phil Jackson. Was this close to leaving basketball altogether. Because he couldn't get a good meeting in the NBA. So Steve Kerr was barely. You'll you'll see an episode nine. Steve says that he got the same of attention from girls and college recruiters in high school and that was not a lot he barely. You sure I believe that. Well yourself abasing guy and I love but it really is this band of underdogs in. It's when you look at it from thirty five thousand feet. It's like yeah whatever. You're trying to dramatize this but when you look at it as I said before on a granular level. It's really these guys overcame so much so we didn't. There's so much business. We had to get out of the way in the opening two episodes of the story that we could really spend a lot of time on Mike and his high school career. But that's just one of many many stories that I wish we could have Drilled down on a deeper. What's the best thing that got left on the cutting room floor? Or maybe the best footage from ninety seven ninety eight that you just couldn't find a place to use the behind the scenes stuff because that was a lot of the lower here of course. There's really not a lot of I mean I mean. We really mind as much as we possibly could. Because you say five hundred hours okay. It's not like there was five hundred hours of these guys like giving each other shit on the bus and just like gold for five hundred hours. This is a lot of. Nfl films style. Slow-motion basketball's going through the air. No in a in a in a meaningless game against the Atlanta Hawks in February nineteen ninety eight. It was not stuff. It was a lot of press conferences. A lot of media scrums and it took a lot of time for them to get the kind of trust and access that you want to project like this so I don't I know the answer you want. I can't think of an instance of something that we left on the floor that deserve to be in there because we really try to pack as much as as awesome. Not Eating. Michael had with one of these things at at the top of episode six. I had this idea when I saw this piece of footage in Ironically. The piece of footage that inspired. It didn't make it into a dock. But I'll give you an example in November of of ninety seven the trip where Scotty asks for trade the game where Scotty asper drape the Bulls lost that game and they had a chance to win at the BUZZER and they missed the shot. It's a heartbreaking loss. The team is the wielded coming off because Scotty is just Amanda Trade there about the. They're playing five hundred ball at best. They're about to go to Indiana where I believe. They lost after that game as well and things are not looking good in the locker room. After that game there was a line of people waiting to see Michael so he comes in. He's exhausted. He's really pissed off and he's wondering why they even come back. George Karl comes in and shakes his hand and grabs him and says hey. I called you about that thing that charity. Then you're GONNA you'll give us these. It was like two thousand dollars apiece. Gay as I know you're good for it. You got enough money to pose for a picture with you pose for a picture and his some hat he had to take a picture with another guy comes in and George Karl brings his wife in and says you remember my wife and a say hello to each other. Michael could not be more gracious with everybody. He's coming off of a really tough loss. He's really pissed off for a month. He has now but he could not be more gracious. Then there's the trainer had a niece and nephew who lived in Seattle or Pacific northwest area and said Michael. These are my my niece and nephew and Michael's nice to them and George Collins with his son and Michael Says Oh yeah you jumper. Like did not have been nicer to him as he's walking out there's a table full of memorabilia and the clubhouse kid says can you sign this? This is for the players this is for I think it was debt leper or somebody like Mica. Said what is this like an autograph till the one moment he had of being exasperated and then they said it's for the players. I said okay so he has to take a few months and signed every Pete. This is from fellow players. Then he opens the door. And there's hundreds of people say lengths of people leading to the bus where there's media waiting at the bus more media waiting for him every single place. He went that season. That is what it was like. So I saw that piece of footage and I said some of our our editors brilliant editors all Abai softy. Is this guy's name and I said try and make me a that gives you an idea of a Dan. The life of Michael the amount of demands that were we had interviewed. Tim Hallen who's the PR guy about this? And He came up with that brilliant montage which which really encapsulated what I wanted it to be and you see that picture. I love that shot at Michael. Holding up the kid a toddler. The Stranger comes over and hands him his child. And you take a picture with my kid and the answer is going to be. Yes so the guy's already scrambling to take the picture and Michael Hiles and holds a kid and skipping nursery school and a one through three smile gives back then keeps on walking. That's what life was like for him. So that's a very long way of saying that we had tremendous access in these things. A lot of it was redundant but they play the sixers. Larry Brown wants to come in and bring his son in this. Everybody wanted a piece of Michael. After these games. Not just fans and media but players and coaches alight. No and I think that was one of the things you really conveyed well to is. Just how exhausting it was to be. Michael Jordan and to be those bulls teams and that people often don't have that kind of sympathy because Zale you're rich and famous and you've got it made and I would trade my life for yours in a second but you know you really feel it especially the senior in the hotel room early on. I think before the first retirement. I mean you re you feel Michael's exhaustion from being in that in that fishbowl and you can really understand why he would walk away when he did the first time and even the second time that just that this is. It's not easy. That's part of what's so curious to me. Is that some people and everyone has a right to feel. They WanNa feel about this in. There is no wrong opinion when it comes to watching something. Hits Bjork doesn't but when people say you know I still don't have enough from him. I still don't know why you would go to this. Like okay on top of all of this. Your father is your best friend and he was murdered and people are accusing you of having something to do with it. That right there is enough. I don't care if you're famous or not to leave your job and just have to reset for a while. So it's not a popular thing to say. Oh you have sympathy for Michael Jordan. Because he was beloved all over the world and rich and famous but nothing comes without a price man. He paid any price and does to this day. Yeah no absolutely and I also think that there have speaking of all the strings that we could pull out two full thing on a full review or an hour long documentary on how the media conducted itself in terms of all the conspiracy theorizing that was in mainstream papers at the time about all that episode is it was really. I cringed watching that part of it. I'm less than new. You've got to go the last thing I just wanted to throw at you real quick. Obviously Kobe and David Stern both pass before this comes out. You've got the opportunity interview both of them for this. And those among or potentially the last on camera interviews each either of them did did that influence in any way the way that you decided to use their interviews knowing that this is this is part of this among the last things that these guys were able to to tell us the public about themselves and their relationship to Michael. I felt an extra weight when I saw those scenes. Yeah and and so did I. And so that all of us who made it but in a way. I'm proud to say that we didn't change a frame based on On the events that happened afterwards because nothing was viewed through the prism of of two thousand. Twenty or two thousand eighteen is when we we interviewed commissioner. Stern interviewed him. The second day of shooting in June of two thousand eighteen is when we interviewed David Stern. And you know. They went from whatever they were these interviews. That were you know. Key pieces key cogs in the machine of this documentary to something much more. Poignant when you see them again through the lens of what happens but with Kobe. The only thing that we changed in that segment was to add the dedication to the episode. But that was always designed to be the beginning of episode five. Because the chronology of this thing the backbone is the season halfway through the season is the All Star game so we always knew the beginning of five or six was going to be that all star game and that. Kobe was going to be featured as the main kind of second character in the telling of that story with Michael. None of us could have foreseen and it still doesn't even make sense to me to this day that he's gone and that we're speaking of him in the past tense but now we didn't change anything at all and that's you know. I have full incredible respect for both of them but but We just chose to keep it as it was. Well it it did. I will say as somebody covered Kobe for seven years in L. A. And just the poignancy of that episode for me. That's one of the things that's GonNa stick with me long beyond this. It was that episode and that was the one where personally selfishly I wanted more like I give me more from ninety eight. GimMe more Michael and Kobe. Give me an hour on that. I didn't entire podcast with J. Adana in Ramona Shelburne. Talking about this the added poignancy because Kobe has gone did hit the floor. I just thought of it now. Is that when they played the clippers early in the season? In episode two. And they're looking for their first home win in the crowd. Is Kobe Bryant? So we show billy crystal and and I think Penny Marshall was there and a few other people and and we had to cut for time a lot of this because we had so much like I said earlier to cram into those first two episodes and we got a note that said that Kobe Bryant. You had to say why he was there an interview him about that and I was adamant no. I think it's just a really cool is Easter Egg. Show that and that's one of those things that just kind of like fell through the cracks. But how how indicative is it of Kobe's mindset that as a fan as a later he's going to the game and he was like in the eighth role behind the basket watching Michael studying him and then when they faced him later on in February pulling him aside and asking him Do certain moves out of defense or people it just it. It said so much about Kobe but It's little nuggets like that. It's not big scenes that we left out but there's little scenes here and there that I'm sure people would I mean I. I used to go into work on off days. And just you know. Grab a sandwich and put my feet up in wash- some of this stuff unfolds just naturally front me. It's a time capsule. It's really incredible to watch now. No it's fantastic I love. I love the Kobe. Brian Easter Egg. Sorry we didn't get to see that one Jason I've kept you long. I know you've got a bunch of other media Obligations to hit. So thank you for spending the time I really appreciate it. Congrats again and thank you again. for the documentary. I can't wait to see nine and ten on Sunday. Thank you so much for businesses around the world today isn't a restart it's a rethink. That's why they're partnering with. Ibm retailers are keeping their systems up as millions of orders move online call centers are using IBM Watson to manage an influx of customer questions with AI and solutions built on the IBM cloud or helping doctors care for patients remotely. Today we're rethinking. How business moves forward. So let's get to it. Let's put smart to work visit. Ibm DOT com slash. Think to learn more.

Michael Michael Jordan NBA Espn Jason Hare Jason Scotty Pippin US Ibm basketball Steve Kerr Kobe Bryant michaels Guy Jerry Michael Levine netflix Krause Michael Shit Knicks Michael Wozniak
Under Review

PTI

18:58 min | 1 year ago

Under Review

"The old man in the attic episode fifty one. We'll go into the glasses because I want to get this lead right the. Ncaa has alleged level one violations against Louisville for improper recruiting in the two thousand seventeen scandal that led to Rick. Pitino being fired the NCAA has alleged level to violations against Patino for failing. Essentially to monitor is program. I own in New York recently. Hired Rick Pitino. What should I do about Pitino Tony? I don't know about level two and level one. It didn't really matter when I own a decided to hire Rick Pitino. They just didn't decide to hire them. On Tuesday and in higher on Wednesday they had to do some due diligence they had to have investigators look into this because I owners officials would be completely irresponsible if they didn't people can alleged irresponsible for doing anyway fine but they did it so none of this can be a real surprise. People knew this was coming down. The Pike there would be some sort of finding and then punishment and here we are and it can't be a surprise to us so they made their decision already and I like are you going to be critical of them for making it. Would you say oh now they have to rescinded and get rid of Rick. Pitino because I would not. Oh no no. I'm certainly not going to do that. I if I understand this correctly there was a five game suspension laying over Patino headed Louisville. For the you know the stripper scandal. Which is before this scandal. Okay so that may still be out there and I own it if I wanna I say if you give them five we take five and that's fine and other than that. I'm going to wait for you. Give him more if you give him ten if you give him fifteen. I'm okay with that but I'm not gonNA do any more than this and I'll tell you why can people do know this. I'm in the tank for Patino and have been for a long period of time. He got fired. At Louisville he lost millions of dollars at Louisville. He not getting millions of dollars at. I and I think we discussed this. Just go over the bill just briefly on this. He started as a high school basketball player at a Catholic school on Long Island. He coached providence. Which is a Catholic school. He's coaching at Iona. Which is a Catholic school. I think there is contrition here and I think there is forgiveness here. He is a tainted hall of Fame Basketball Coach. I found my own. I'm not giving them any more or less. I'm told to give him more now. I agree with that Tony. Part of me wonders Mrs too cynical. But how long do you think is GonNa be that I own? Somebody's GONNA call right. Some big t one leaked so I don't know if he'll go anywhere from there. I mean this may be the place at his age that he wants to finish it out. I'm Jim Valvano coach. I own I WOULD. Just ask this in a general sense. How can bill self and Bruce Pearl and how were they coaching? How would they still coaching? How does it work his works? Somebody wants them. They can win a lot of games make their school. A lot of money. Still Coaching and go bestial coaching Tony. This next story. I know it's going to make your head explode to some degree in an interview with the New York Post. Charles Oakley says it was Patrick. Ewing's fault the Knicks lost to the Bulls in the nineteen ninety-three Eastern Conference finals. Oakley says too many fadeaways and did not have the drive to match Michael Jordan. Ouch Tony Fair or foul. I know this is a tough one for you because Oh 'cause you boy and Patrick Ewing boy so I almost want to stop talking just so you can answer this. Okay isn't fair or foul. Charles Oakley kills. Patrick Ewing says he has no heart. There's nothing worse than this. He says he has no heart. And then he says that playing against the Bulls the Bulls have Michael Jordan. And we have Patrick Ewing any says it's like golden beyond set concert to see beyond. There's someone else who thinks he's beyond say throwing kicked. It's probably foul. Because it feels like. He's waited twenty years on this to do this but he just destroys. Patrick Ewing you know covered. Patrick Ewing enjoys your sound. I think Patrick Ewing is a great great great great player and he was great in the League. I know he did not win. But there were some people born at the wrong time and didn't beat Michael Jordan and they're Great Stockton Malone Barkley Mullen Ewing. You guys are the Dream Team half of them Tony. This is tough. I'm going to read you one stat. That sort of speaks to a defensive Patrick Ewing and actually this Franken soul. I've talked about this this morning because we were like. Oh my God. We're discount from Tony in the one thousand nine Hundred Ninety Three Eastern Conference finals Michael Jordan had one more basket than Patrick Ewing one and he took forty more shots which speaks to how efficiently Patrick Ewing his speech. I know he's playing closer to the basket. But he's played against a great bulls defense. You know that had built writing Horace Grant and all these guys this is. This is hard to hear if you are a fan of Patrick and I know Charles. Oakley was a tough tough tough guy who both played with Michael Jordan and against Michael Jordan. So so he me. Charles Oakley knows but man I. I thought Patrick played valiantly they just weren't good enough. Neither were Stockton Malone. Neither were Charles. Either. I mean so many guys. Here's the thing. Patrick Ewing did not choke in those playoff. No I didn't think the numbers he gave you in the regular season. But what makes this foul is simply this? Nobody has ever said that. Patrick Ewing was the greatest basketball player. Ever which is what they routinely about Michael Jordan. They don't belong in the same sentence. Now if you think you think that he got killed in. Derek Harper apparently piled on a little bit too. I'm told in this but if you think that that Oakley is killing Patrick Ewing Jordan did the Clyde Drexler. We're looks in the camera. Says this guy. Are you kidding me? Just give me the ball. That's killing somebody. Let me stay lease. Just add this the add this at least they were opponents. Charles and we have Patrick teammates and they got so close they got and none of this talk about block strip block block which was not Patrick. Ewing's fault so all they know Oakley things that was his fault over to batch. Doing should've scored. I'm GonNa stay with Major Bulls in one thousand nine hundred ninety s for little while this Chicago Sun. Times is reporting the Jerry Krause and I know you know that I believe Jerry. Krause did a great job. I think he did his job very well that he wanted to break up the bulls before they went for the last dance before they went for their six championship and their second three peat. He wanted to Trade Scottie. Pippin to the Celtics for the right to draft high schooler Tracy McGrady now Jerry Reinsdorf and Michael Jordan apparently mixed this woman with trading pippen four McGrady. That point have been defensible in your opinion is defensible as you do in his strictly from the view of. I'm a general manager and I am trusted to look forward to the future of the franchise because Scotty was thirty. Two I mean look if you going to replay Scottie Pippen. My God didn't Tracy Mcgrady in terms of style. I knew he was more prolific. Did he play a lot like Scotty? Yes he did. You can see this. But here's why it's indefensible. And Look I say Jerry? Cross was graded building that team to and then Jerry Krause. Is the legitimate justifiable villain. Here's I know he's deceased. I know it's unseemly sometimes. Say How can you pile on Jerry? Krause 'cause they knew what he was doing he was a villain when he was alive to and he earned it. He wanted it. Jerry Krause was a guy who heard the booze and went so now he's getting them and so no it's not defensible because they were winning. Championships was Scotty Pippin. They were not gonNA probably win. It was GONNA be hard to win with a rookie. Don't you agree that Love Tracy Mcgrady? But I'm saying you got Scottie. Pipping he is the to me the most underrated player of his time. Elgin Baylor Scottie. Pippen in terms of underrated. You play with Scotty. Pippin my God. It's indefensible at that time. In the way that drafting Jordan love is indefensible. In this time because doesn't help you right now. Size school kid. You can't win you've got pippen and Jordan from one more year and you obviously ride that out. What is interesting to me is this is the the Tim Duncan is coming out and the Celtics hope that they're going to land. Tim Duncan they get the third pick and the pick in that draft so they get Chauncey billups and they get. Ron Mercer had gotten Scottie Pippen in a trade Rick Pitino might still be there. He might not even being older. Because Scottie Pippen would have helped the celtics in that moment tremendously. But no that's not defensible. Right then Krause's looking down the road when he does that by the way if the had gotten crazy and he kept sean big shot billups. He might not be at iona either. He might have stayed at the Celtics longer. Hetty realize he had a Great Hall of Fame Point Guard on his team. Then he got rid of like in a minute and a half. Yeah Yeah because he knew who wasn't walking in that door as you recall that's backseat. So he did on that on all right. You know people should know by now. The the last story in the block is often about boxing because we are not intimate people were. Boxing is a few days ago of video. In showing fifty-three-year-old Mike Tyson training in a boxing. Ring the main man training him Rafael Cordeiro told. Espn's Ariel Hello Alati. That Tyson has the same speed and power is guys in twenty stone. Cordeiro believes that within six months Tyson would make a comeback and so the question is very direct and simple. Do you want to see Mike Tyson? Back in the ring fighting okay. So full disclosure here. I love my Tyson Mike. Tyson will hold you many times. They single most charismatic athlete. I've ever seen when he walked into the ring in any heavyweight bout. This is insane. I saw this. I saw this clip. He looks like a giant bear. At this point I mean I don't know who's going to allow him to. He's fifty three years old. But if we get past exhibitions said he might WANNA fight. Exhibitions get past exhibitions to a real fight. You asked me what I want to see it. Well of course I wanna see it just like you. WanNa see it. Of course I want to see the. He did an interview on the Internet. And he's smoking a cigarette in the interview. So is he training really when I saw this film a couple of days ago? This video clip. The first thing I thought was how long until we get to the story of Mike. Tyson Comeback Tony. Things exciting in forty years of covering sports in person there are. There's nothing as exciting as having been at ringside for Mike Tyson. But do I want to see him? Yes but when you think about what could happen. We see the speed and the power hitting the midst. But that's not the same as getting in there against the Guy Tony. These heavyweights now. Seems so much bigger. They seem so much bigger and stronger. I don't what might don't WanNa see Mike Tyson hurt. I don't WanNa see that. I don't want to see that. But how old was foreman? At the end of his run wasn't forming in his fifties. When you buy same fifties yeah he he was. I just want to remind people that the last time that we saw Mike Tyson hit somebody. It was Zach Galifianakis hangover which is a great movie. And there's a ties are in the room and it's really nice you care. Let Mike Tyson back into real ring. I mean you. You don't think there if you do irresistible is let's say once again we say no. Yacky we have a peak. Geico has the insurance industry leading up and let you manage your policy anytime anywhere. Which means that Geico is always there for you. If only everyone was always. Therefore you like animal control when you're cornered in your garage by angry possum again you said you would be here about an hour ago and I think the positive is starting to get angry. I listened. I thought if I it it would go away. But now it is ripping holes in the drywall and making some sort of nest. Just coming back. Always there for you with savings on the industry leading mobile APP FOR THE GLASSES. Time for the legal pad time for the happy. Happy Forty Ninth Birthday Herald Minor. A native of Inglewood California minor came to prominence in high school whereas dunking prowess earned him. The nickname baby Jordan minor spent three years in. Us singing in his final news there. Sports illustrated named Him College Basketball Player of the year. Over Shaquille O'Neal Alonzo Mourning and Christian. Leitner who would later go one two three in the NBA draft mine was the number twelve. Pick all going to Miami where he did not get much playing time he won the dunk contest twice but only started forty seven games in his four year NBA career. We WOULD MIAMI ONE WITH CLEVELAND. Only average points a game. His college coach George Raveling. One said the worst thing to happen to Harrow. Was the baby Jordan Tag. Indeed minor has lived most of his post. Nba Life in some seclusion. Admitting a few years back than it took them a long time to quote accept what happened with my career that I wasn't able to live up to my own personal expectation. Tony One. I forgot he was left handed. I've just gotten to all the guys that got tagged with that. There was so much question. It was so difficult to to have on you to smothering you and the only guy who who survived it and went on to have his own Great Hall of fame. Career is Vince Carter. And I wonder it'd be great advocates some time it being North Carolina and maybe having being knowing Michael Jordan demystified because there's that similarity and he was around a lot. I wonder how much that helped Vince. When he was young. But Man Harold Minor. I mean he has some talent in their tone but the pressure was just it was just enormous. Don't be the next Jordan. Don't be the next tiger doesn't work out happy. Anniversary Larry Bird on this day thirty nine years ago and just his second year in the League look at this followed up his own miss capturing the ball in his right hand slapping to his left hand in scooping the shot in as he fell out of bounds this was in game one of the NBA Finals against Houston a seal. The Celtics would win for birds. First title read our back red. Our back called it. The greatest play he had ever seen in this particular game. Bird had eighteen points. Twenty one rebounds nine assists which is a stat line. You can live with. I don't know to tell you how great Larry Bird was. There is a moment in the Jordan documentary. We're bird Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan opposing for publicity pictures for the Dream Team and the camera captures them laughing and kidding each other about the photo shoot. The moment is completely captivating. I imagine this is what it would have been like if Willie mays Hank Aaron and Mickey Mantle. Wherever on the same baseball team Tony. That's why that team when people I know who are younger. Get angry hearing old. Say That's the greatest team ever assembled because it is that the Holy Basketball Trinity for people of a certain age in that photo. And so I you know bird. He doesn't get over he doesn't I mean bird is still in the conversation because you have clips like this and you have people like Michael and Irvin talk about Larry Bird and having to play against if that move mean. That Jordan switched hands this. This was in the finals that move because in motion and he thinks it's going to be defended as well. Maybe read our back right happy trails to the absence of baseball on ESPN. I feel like I'm doing a live. Read here the season opener. The Korean baseball organization was televised beginning at one. Am this morning. Eastern time with Carl ravage and Peres doing the call from their homes the NC dyno's beat the Samsung Lions for those of you in Korean. Fantasy Leagues The K. B O is a ten team league. Each team plays one hundred forty four games. The selling point in the League is offense a couple of years ago. The League wide batting average was two eighty six and then I mentioned there's a premium on theatrical backflips Tuesdays through Fridays. Espn will televise a game beginning at five thirty am eastern. Which is when I'm out walking the dog. It's a four. Am Start on Saturday people getting in late and a one am start on Sunday? In addition to rally. Eddie John Chambi and Jessica. Mendoza and Peterson will call games as of yet. They're no fans in the stands just cardboard cutouts of fancy UMPIRES and Onfield. Coaches must wear masks and if any member of the team any member test positive corona virus. The League will shut down for at least three weeks. That's a lot of pressure Tony. Look it's a trickle baseball in Asia. Here Golf in Florida there. It's something you know. I know it's just toes in the water. That's all this right now but I know you'll agree with me. This is good to see and I'm watching and I want some weird time. I'm three hours off of you and I'm still going to be watching so take that.

Michael Jordan Patrick Ewing Mike Tyson Charles Oakley Rick Pitino Jerry Krause Scottie Pippen Patrick Bulls basketball Tony Celtics Larry Bird Ewing Tyson Mike Jordan League Louisville NBA Jerry
Should The Texans Trade Deshaun for Trevor Lawrence?

PTI

22:49 min | 6 months ago

Should The Texans Trade Deshaun for Trevor Lawrence?

"The drug thrill and the excitement. Everybody's been waiting for is finally here in the world series of poker official app. Get ready to experience. Big hand make big plays and take down big pots. Get one million free chips when entering the promo code wwlp. Ny look for wap in your app store and play for free net and ten for those twenty one. Plus wwlp is not a real money gamete for entertainment purposes. Only all prize awarded game of virtual chips on which have no cash value. Pardon the interruption. But i'm michael. Barr no footfall this weekend. So what are you going to do to fill your days. Tony kornheiser anxiety. I'm going to be very anxious. I'm going to be particularly anxious. We're going to get a twelve inch. Snow snow in washington. No did not well. I mean the ball and you promised at twelve inch snowfalls for forty years. I've known you we've had to you promised to a month and you know she says i love to hear twelve losses when we're looking we're gonna. Pti boys and girls in today's episode to the texans trade to shawn watson for trevor lawrence. Is tom brady yet. The goat and to college basketball hansel conference tournaments but we begin today with ben rothlisberger offering to accommodate the steelers in every way financially. Just to play next season in pittsburgh roth. Asperger's said quote. I'm pretty sure. I wanna go one more year. I think i can do it and give us a real chance at winning unquote will bond. Is it a no brainer for the steelers to stick with ben. No tony is not a no brainer. Because i mean we're sorta end and i'm not one of those people to me ben. Rothlisberger has played all his career being underrated. Despite winning two super bowls and people just underestimate him and his career and i. I don't understand that so you know. I've been a big band. Fan a big ben right. But i can't say it's a no brainer at this point. If you can do this financially. So that the club doesn't suffer a paralyzing cap. It then yes. I'd like to see that done. I'd like to see. Ben roethlisberger finished have one more shot at it in pittsburgh if that's what the team wants. Is it a no brainer. No if there are other options they're going to explore them. That's what football teams do. But i hope it works out. Yeah look i think they owe him something i think. They owe him not to go out like that after he has done what he has done in pittsburgh but there are larger questions here. They've got a lot of free agents who are leaving by the end of the year. That looked like a team that was gasping. Rothlisberger himself was nothing compared to what he and cam. Newton dropped off the table this year. So what they've gotta do. They gotta say. Is dwayne haskins our quarterback of the future. Maybe but i don't know they have to ask themselves might do we go after matthew stafford to we go after the shawn watson and if they decide to do that then. What is ben's role next year. Does he become like eli. Manning was with the giants which just ends badly because he just standing here and not a part of it and and football teams have to consider all of this stove. because as i said dale. Look good right now no tony. All that's true. But football franchise also have personalities and no matter who's running them and it's still the same people essentially lineage. Running the pittsburgh steelers franchise getting some quarterback somewhere else is not what they do. I mean they got. They got some super bowls right. They got six of them and the two guys that produced those six super bowls. They drafted i mean they brought them in. They developed them. They became the face of the pittsburgh. Steelers terry bradshaw and ben rothlisberger. I'm not saying they should be slavishly. Devoted to that model. I'm just saying it seems like that's the personality through and through of the pittsburgh steelers. So i don't see them going out getting matthew stafford anybody else but but tony you're right. There's a lot of factors involved here and there's going to be a long offseason until they get this stuff figured out in pittsburgh i'm just wondering if they've reached the point where they have to sell off spare parts and be a real rebuilding situation in my real rea- might so don't tony. Romo is gushing over the matchup of this year's super bowl quarterbacks. He's like you on steroids. He likes the battle between tom. Brady and patrick mahomes to a fictional matchup michael jordan facing lebron or jack nicklaus taken on tiger romo says that brady winces seven super bowl. He'll seal up the goat discussion probably for forever but if mahomes wins again the door stays open. Is tony romo right okay. So let's review the last time we heard from tony romo. I believe chaired. Henny was under center on a fourth down play for kansas city. And tony romo said. They're not going to snap the ball. Don't worry about it okay. It's not a real. They snap the ball and in many through the past. And that's how kansas city one game now to romo's particular position here in this goat conversation which is a thoroughly manufactured absurd conversation if if mahomes wins a second. Is there still a conversation was here. Because if you're going to get to three or four or five or six. He got to win too. So yeah it's ongoing but you mentioned ben roethlisberger. A little while ago having to he got to when he was twenty six years old in two thousand eight. How many got now. He's got to anybody talk about him as the goat. No nobody saying anything like that to go to me by definition is all time. What are you talking about patrick. Mahomes all time at the door stays open for discussion. And i think romo's point is brilliant. I think it's brilliant. I think use the evolving of other sports and great athletes other goats is a great discussion. As opposed to the lame. Discussions was take enough into account when people have these usually romo's taken into account and by the way one match up there wasn't there wasn't fictional michael jordan's first. Nba finals was magic. Johnson's final nba. Final so i think that was his ninth and final one so we have seen that sort of. I don't wanna say passing of the torch but one guys on the escalator up in one is on. Es later down gulps all of them he mentioned in this discussion romo so i think he's on the something here. Yes i look. I pump the brakes when people start talking about kansas city. Winning five or six or seven of stupid. It was like miami heat. Went and five or six or seven and they'll stop but when you discuss it this way with a little trepidation i think tony romo is put the best conversation out there on this topic. Okay is a long way to go from two to ten. Brady's been in ten long way to go from two to six brady as one six. The guy with the second most appearances is elway. And it's only five i again. This is an all time conversation. Let's bring in nicholas okay. This is nicholas but it's not nichols against tiger yet. Nicholas against greg women. It's greg norman who nicklaus said. We're going to be great. It was going to be number one and one and he finished with two. I'm saying my grace of all time. I've talking about a twenty five year. Old pitchers came up with bad arms. Going to be the greatest pitchers and matt harvey. Yep doing the. Ncaa has a rule that every team going to the ncaa. Tournament has the test negative seven consecutive days before travelling to the tournaments site in indianapolis. This has led some coaches notably. Tom izzo chris mack louisville to wonder whether team should participate in their conference tournaments because if they get positive tests from their they're out of the. Ncaa is said quote as i look at teams that have a legitimate chance to get to the final. Four like gonzaga. Baylor vila-nova michigan iowa. Virginia why would you play the conference tournament. would you rather win the big ten the ncaa. So we'll bond should college basketball players conference tournaments. Yes of course they should your your different. Jim valvano how did he get to the final four won the championship. He went and won his conferences tournament. And the only way they were getting into the tournament was to win the conference tournament so no brady not much i. Love is oh we would just have to have a knock down drag out disagreement over pancakes on this one. So no you know. And he's conference tournaments produce money they produce teams that get to the final four. So you want to just say oh. Acc we'll just take. Virginia and i don't know who else is up there and everybody else can go home. No because one of those teams could win the conference tournament and therefore qualify ultimately for the. No there's a no brainer. I understand. It's hard to understand other things happen. I get all of that. You play the supposed teams just said. We're not playing in our conference tournament. The one of the teams in two three four five slots opposed to do. What are we talking about here. Plan or turn turn now maybe first of all is oh told the athletic this thing okay. Second of all. I think he's talking about teams that would just qualify anyway like these are really good teams. That are going to be invited. Anyway i think the easy solution is take the conference tournaments and kick them up a week or take the ncaa and kick it back a week. But if he can't do that. I understand this. It's sorta like college football players. Saying i'm not gonna play in a bowl game because i wanna play in the nfl in small conferences. Like we're is the america east. It'd be great to win something like that because you basically want in done. If you get to the ncaa's but in the larger conferences here's the problem. Might the longer you spend at a conference tournament the more you expose your players your coaches your stay up to the possibility of corona you test. If you test positive on wednesday and you can't go to the tournament you have no chance. I don't think this is crazy. Dogar day can keep you in a hotel with only the team and the staff and keep you out of the rest of the world. Okay which is just got virus everywhere. The better off. You are coaches now. If you can sequester your players and your staff you keep them away in the main from the virus. You can't do that on campuses or people are going home a hard. The storm incites huh tournament. i mean just. Don't think hotels rake the texan. Say they have no interest in trading to shawn watson not even trevor lawrence in the miami heat would just an nba finals. So how do they feel about a six twelve star. You're an addict you feel yourself in an addict. Have you gotten the virus. No i haven't gotten. I'm afraid to go to a conference tournament because that's where all get back there the drum through and the excitement everybody's been waiting for is finally here in the world series of poker official. Get ready to experience. Big hands make big plays and take down big pots. Get one million free chips when entering the promo code. Waso p. n. y. Look for wwlp in your app store and play for free and tim for those twenty one. Plus p is not a real money. Gambling game is for entertainment purposes. Only all price awarded and game of virtual chips on which no cash value why at once app s then once last back running with elite. Qb's russell the kenneth on clutch td's lacrosse overstep behind. Ain't no need to watch the clock because you know his at thirty thirty two finger. Push us bruce lee showing no mercy. Fat file got the crew on deck. Bono's no one knows goes deeper one step is the espn app download now. Another war of words. Let's get the first one producer over the loudspeaker that jaguars would be blank to offer the number one. Pick for deshaun watson how they would be impetuous now. Let's let's be clear on this houston is saying that they're not going to trade shawn watson but we're just going to put this in because this is a game that we play when you go back to people at clemson they all say the same thing. They say shawn watson was great. Trevor lawrence greater bigger stronger bigger arm. Even there's twenty five to twenty eight teams in this league. That would throw over their quarterback. Right now for watson and i am including seattle green bay tampa and baltimore in that but this guy. Trevor lawrence is alleged to be like the pick of the decade. There are very very few teams out there. That would not take to show on watsa. Kansas city is one of them. And then you get into maybes. Mike maybe arizona wouldn't nation heroes. Zona would balk game maybe buffalo. Wouldn't i mean there's maybe. The chargers wooden maybe cincinnati. Wouldn't if it's me. I'm gonna make the pick of trevor lawrence if jacksonville. I'm going to make that pick. He's gonna cost me less money in the short term and he's four years younger. The jags would be smarter than usual to make this trade smarter than usual now. They were pretty smart. As far as i'm concerned with the hiring urban meyer one of the few times like the college pro you know transition and so this is a time where the jaguars will get it wrong so often they got it right with the head coach. I would trade and take this shawn watson absolutely travelers jeff lawrence. I'm taking shawn watson. I know what the results are watching. I don't know what the results are going to be with. trevor lawrence. Yeah i'm yeah. I'm staying with trevor lawrence. What's next the miami heat should feel about where they are. They should feel sanguine now where they are bad. They're six and twelve. They've lost five and role in the east only ahead of detroit in washington which you really bad teams but they have been hit so hard by corona virus and by injuries at this point i want to get these facts straight jimmy butler as miss twelve out of their eighteen games. Avery bradley as miss ten tyler. Heroes ms seven. They've used thirteen. Different line of these are the people who started the fourth quarter for the miami heat last night. Gabe vincent max stroz. Casey opa paula and precious. A chewier and tyler herro. That's not an nba team is just not so. I think it's going to turn around. They were in the finals last year. I think it's going to get better is better but it. Maybe next year they should feel lottery bound. And that's what they could be tony. Only three teams have worse records. Detroit your washington basketball team and minnesota. That's can't this is hard to recover from by the way. No one should be criticized the turnaround and coming back into a new season and not having to have a not being able to have a healthy jimmy butler. This is sort of foreseeable if you didn't foresee nba six and twelve. You can foresee being seven and eleven. They weren't gonna be good. They weren't going to get off to a good start with the illness injury. You're right about that. But tony maybe you just take a elvis. And i know a pat riley. Run team would never do that. But if they took the l. and they wound up hiring the lottery. I don't even know who's gonna be the top of the lottery but miami has nothing to be ashamed of is now like they're tanking. I'm not suggesting they will take but just to work out in their favor. I'm just saying. I think they're gonna go up quick steep winning my words. This game is over. Let's take one last break but still to come. The eagles coach makes a bold statement about his quarterback options and jock peterson leaving the dodgers paradise. God five he's getting thousand liam and he's coming to the friendly confines baby time people have thirty six birthday. Marcus saw not palca gonzalez. Older brother wait. he's coming. Marcus always was drafted by the lakers. Never got to play for them because he was included in a big trade in two thousand and eight that sent him to memphis for among others. How the saul yes. Mark was traded for his own brother. How went onto win championships in los angeles with kobe. Bryant mark went on to become a three time all star in memphis. Nba defensive player of the year in two thousand thirteen first team all nba in two thousand fifteen. Nobody knows this because nobody knows an emphasis in the league. Oddly enough marcus. All went to high school in memphis in two thousand nineteen mark was traded to toronto where he was on the championship team. Now he's playing for the lakers finally having come as a free agent getting nineteen and a half minutes a game. Four points and close to five rebounds. Kalganov played with kobe. Mark assault place with a broad calamar played together for spain in the olympics and they won two silver medals. You'll tony instinctively. I think. I'd say how had the better career individually but how was never first team. All eight like mark was mark's. Got these two titles. One in canada was some part of like another national team his whole life. I mean they own believably great careers. I guess power little better six time all nba but but mark mark behind pretty well still playing at the anniversary. San francisco forty niners on this day. Twenty six years ago the niners blew out the chargers forty-nine twenty six at the super bowl in miami steve young had a super bowl record six touchdown passes. This was the forty niners fifth super bowl title their first in five years. The previous four were built by bill. Walsh around joe montana. This thing was also built by walls coach by george siefert and driven by young. After years of being in montana's shadow young stage. All to himself. Montana had moved on to kansas city. The most memorable video from this game actually occurs on the sideline not on the field young gleefully. Would somebody get this monkey off. My back and linebacker gary plummer obliges lifting it. Off in pantomime and saying it's gone forever. Indeed it was young was later elected to the hall of fame. More importantly though he's been a regular guest on this high quality program. The monkey really was joe. I mean steve. Young people have no idea. I have some ideals current. Nfl for the washington post in their locker. They were the team you know they were the warriors a football then and joe just was so bad to him and steve young so gracious the whole time. It is one of several reasons. I have always rooted real hard. For steve young a melancholy trails. John chainey the longtime head coach at temple and the winner of the division two national championship before that at cheney state died today at age eighty nine. John chainey was a force of nature during a basketball game. Prowling the sideline staring down referees with the evil eye when he felt he was wrong. Shady famously got into shouting matches with fellow atlantic. Ten coaches like john calipari when he was in massachusetts gerry. gimelstob george. washington. Chain was a giant in the big five. He put temple back on the basketball map. He coached the owls to five. Ncaa regional finals and to seventeen nca appearances. He won five hundred sixteen games at temple. Each one plane is match up zone. Defense you had the number one team in the country in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight in all cheney one seven hundred forty one games in his coaching career for all that and for the practices routinely held at the crack of dawn to instill discipline. Cheney was elected to the naismith hall of fame. Tony a lot of ways. John chainey reminded me reminds me of gregg popovich. There's this real growth public personality largely and people can just be. Oh my god. I don't want to be near that guy and then if you were around i was around and you've got to sit with them and know them. There was no better company than either one of them. Then then pop or the john chainey at the final four every year for more than a decade. I was one of the few people who was fortunate enough to be around john thompson. John chainey george raveling and we would sit and have started about ten o'clock on a sunday night. It will go until about four in the morning. There was nothing better. I can't believe we've lost johnnie today. And we go to the big finish lakers. Lost the pistons. We'll vanessa significant. Is it no the second. That of back to back in eighty in plano significant only to the pistons and people in detroit new eagles head coach nick theory on he says philly has to top notch. Quarterbacks you agree with that. No they have to quarterback us i'm not going hendrix junior. The especially the rob manfred with an emphasis on diversity at the amador rebels of the dunes out of the choice junior is top notch and this is a great hire to do exactly that jock peterson. Left dodgers signed a one year deal with my copies. You like the deal. Here's essentially the same players cost war who the washing. It's a good fit. I would think mass won the jazz. Go for their eleven straight tonight. They host the mavs again. We got donovan mitchell questionable. I'm going to stick with the with the jazz tony. I'm not going against them like you always do. I love them. Not only against a lot of time. We'll do better the next time. Sony corn on mike will have a great weekend knuckleheads. You can get the pti podcast on the espn app or apple podcasts. And now here. It's sports kylian grandson at the senior bowl. Shoutout cousins in the attic your.

shawn watson Trevor lawrence ben rothlisberger pittsburgh steelers romo Rothlisberger tony romo pittsburgh Ncaa tony nba football matthew stafford kansas city ben dwayne haskins miami super bowl patrick mahomes
Remembering Emmett Till | 7

American History Tellers

41:38 min | 2 years ago

Remembering Emmett Till | 7

"<music> imagine it's august twenty eighth nineteen sixty three and you are in the nation's capital. You are joined by two hundred fifty thousand people here on this day to be a part of history. You're used to crowd you happen to be a professional basketball player but this is something else you had no idea it would be this big of an event win on a whim you borrowed a car and drove to dc last night. When you arrive you got out and walked around picked out the perfect spot from which to view the event and organiz responded responded you sized you up and then asked if you'd volunteer to help with security the next day you said shore and he told you to return at nine a._m. And here it it is nine a._m. The next morning it's loud and hot dense crowds on every side the organizer from the night before shouts and waves you over your man here take this. This is your credential. Keep it on you at all times and put this on the event organizer hand a little white cap. We need all of our security people to where these okay this way and we need you by the podium. You joined the rest of the security team and look how upon the sea of faces that look just like yours. I surround the reflecting pool chines brilliantly in the sun. It is a site beyond anything. Your parents or grandparents could have ever imagined you have stepped into a dream you. You've stepped into history. Dr martin luther king approaches. The microphone were mere feet behind him. When he begins the speech he speaks of the path of racial justice and the fierce urgency of now suddenly in the crowd a woman shouts. Tell them about the dream. Martin king gazes forward the notes in his hand seemingly forgotten whenever he's about to say he didn't write it down now. He knows this part. He feels this part. He tells everyone all two hundred and fifty thousand of them that he has a dream. When the speech ends the response from the crowd overwhelmed wells you kings steps away from the microphone and a nearby man commends him on another great speech but something inside tells you that this is not just another great speech impulsively you walk forward. You barely even comprehend what you're doing but you know you must do it. He watches king accepts more congratulations. You see he's holding in the pages of the speeches script and his left hand the words tumble out of you dr king. Can i have that speak. King offers you a humble smile. He appears flattered that you would even ask without a word. He simply handed over three sheets of paper single space type. He's about to say something to you but in an instant and he's whisked away by another wellwisher you stare down at the speech doesn't have a title but you suspect it will soon you will hold onto these pages for the rest of your life in your heart. You know that today's words will never be forgotten that one day dr king's dream will be realized american history tellers is sponsored by chase well. The search is over. It's been a rough road. The two of you been looking for months getting a bit desperate with a baby on the way but now you found this could be your new home. Your family's new home. Your agent is lining things up on the phone with an offer you open empty cabinets and closet doors not really sure what you're looking for so much to think about inspectors paperwork title companies and a mortgage but that you have covered you've been smart art went with chase you know the last few years have been a seller's market and that it's important for buyers to be taken seriously chases. Closing guarantee is one way to stand out as a chase customer. You'll close quickly or you'll get one thousand dollars getting your first home. Even faster with chase were more a chase dot com slash tellers colors chase make more of what's yours all home. Lending products are subject to credit and property provoked rates. Program terms and conditions are subject to change without notice. Not all products are available in all states. Go for all amounts other restrictions and limitations apply home lending products offered by a._p. Morgan chase bank a an equal housing lender from wondering i'm lindsey graham and this is american history tellers our history your story <music> more than two hundred fifty thousand people attended the march on washington for jobs and freedom fifty six years ago today august twenty eighth nineteen sixty three. It was there that martin luther king delivered his a conic. I have a dream speech from the steps of the lincoln memorial auriol where he looked out on the crowd to proclaim the event the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation. One of the attendees that day was george raveling a former basketball player who by chance ended up working security at the march raveling was just a few feet away from dr king during his speech and after it was all over king handed raveling his original typewritten pages with a smile george raveling still owns those pages and he says he has no intention of letting them go king king speech is largely considered the marquee moment of the civil rights movement and will forever be an integral part of united states history but just eight years before that on the very same day another seminal moment in the civil rights movement occurred it was the murder of emmett till till was a fourteen year old boy from chicago who was kidnapped snapped tortured and murdered by two white men on august twenty eighth nineteen fifty five while visiting family in money mississippi. His killers were never brought to justice but but his death galvanized the nascent civil rights movement. Our guest today is davis. How he's a professor of rhetorical studies at florida state university this month he launched an app app called the emmett till memory project it uses g._p._s. historical documents and photos to illustrate a significant american tragedy a tragedy that occurred on a date change the course of history not once but twice. Here's our conversation davis. How thank thank you for joining me on american history tellers. Thanks for having me today now. You were i interested in the story of emmett till when you're undergraduate and you've spent a fair portion of your career career on it. It is obviously important story in a turning point in the civil rights movement but why is it important for you. Why have you dedicated so much of your time and career to to it. When i was teaching at florida state back in two thousand three i was teaching racing rhetoric course and we reading a book called local people by john dittmer and i made the mistake in the small seminar of asking my students if i could arrange a field trip to mississippi who would be interested in going and everybody put their hands up and at that the point i was sort of committed to doing this project and i won't go into great detail but we we went tennis and one of the stops that we were able all to negotiate with the folks doing the tour was the bryant grocery and meat market which was just <hes> just a shell of a building in money mississippi but it's still there and being that close to ground zero of civil rights history was was moving all of us that was two thousand three and and that point i was i was just curious to know more <hes> i had heard the big broad contour story of emmett till but i didn't know the particulars and so seeing that store up close elicited my curiosity and <hes> that began a pretty active investigation into the case <hes> where i spent a lot of time initially lindsay was that the mississippi department of archives and history. I was very interested to see how the mississippi press the white press mississippi reacted to the kidnapping and murder and so in jackson. There's a great archived there with all the <hes> newspaper coverage and that was the the jumping off point for my first major project on the till case called <hes> <hes> emmett till and the mississippi press when you mentioned the bryant store as a kind of nexus for your interest in this episode of course i think the store run by roy bryant who with his brother in law j w milem were the instigators of this event. Can you tell a little bit about them and their trial sure <hes> yeah so roy bryant and j w milem were initially arrested. Roy bryant was arrested august twenty eighth not long after they had murdered emmett till the body had not turned up yet in j. W milem was arrested the following day august twenty ninth. They were both initially arrested on kidnapping charges because like i said the body audie had not turned up on august thirty first they find a body in the tallahassee river in it's so decomposed and hideously deformed that the only way moses right emmett till's great uncle could identify the corpse was through a ring on his finger at that point. The body was shipped back to chicago. The charges were upgraded to murder order a grand jury <hes> issued indictments for murder on september sixth. <hes> shockingly has just does not work this way now. <hes> the trial was held on september nineteenth at lasted five days and on september twenty third and just a little over an hour of deliberations rations the jury acquitted milem bryant in terms of who testified <hes> for the prosecution moses right testified again emmett's great uncle and there's an iconic picture that was kind of the picture was not supposed to be taken but one of the black photographers in the courtroom snuck a picture in its where moses writes stands up and points at j w milem on his attorney asks him you know who had who had come to the to his house on the twenty eighth to to take him out of it. There were several people who testified for the prosecution including mamie till emmett mom who was able to identify the yes. This corpse was her son. <hes> <hes> the defense put on a very very brief <hes> defense the the two men never testified of course carolyn bryant did testify but her her testimony was not allowed to be heard by the jurors but one of the key people to testify on the defenses half was the tallahassee county sheriff by the name of <hes> clarence aren't strider and strider testified under oath that the body that had come out of tallahassee river had been in that river at least two weeks maybe longer and he couldn't even intel it was so decomposed that he couldn't even tell the race of the person of course if you go back to the newspaper accounts as i did <hes> the day the body body was discovered he was there on the riverbanks he claimed at that point that the body looked like it might have been in the river two or three days and so he he had changed his testimony dramatically mattingly over the course of those two weeks and he was testifying on the defense's behalf false accounts or perhaps the heart of the story because just after that trial bryant and my own story was reported in look magazine and that's pretty much the basis of america's understanding of the event the time but what was the fact and fiction in that account well this gets to the crux of the matter because <hes> william bradford huey who's very famous journalist at the time paid milem brian a little over three thousand dollars. The the attorneys also got some money to <hes> essentially confess. What really happened in order to do this story in my colleague. Dave tell has done a marvelous job on tracking the story down through the huey papers at ohio state. University huey was made trying to make sure look magazine himself. We're not going to get sued and so they were trying to get all parties involved in this case to sign releases essentially granting him permission to tell the story and they weren't going to sue him for liable or whatever and and it turns out he was only able to get a couple of releases <hes> roy brian and j w milem most notably and so what we ended up getting <hes> huey ends up telling this fabulous tale <hes> from from primarily g._w. Mile point of view of this incredibly boastful <hes> amatil who stands up to them is unafraid of them and up till the time the jada milem supposedly shoots in on the bank of tallahassee river. You know we have a boastful. Oh emmett till bragging about being with white women and sex with white women. It's all a bunch allies and we know it's a bunch of lives now <hes> but this hit the newsstands ends on in look magazine huge circulation magazine in january nineteen fifty six and immediately is is the most story talked about for weeks <hes> <hes> in our country and a lot of people in mississippi in particular a lot of white people in mississippi in particular grew up with this version of the story the version of the story that has emmett till being for all intents and purposes a rapist and was it simply that this was a mainstream publication with a large mostly white audience that this is the story persisted rather than perhaps the the true one exactly and there was a counter story and as we know now that that story was largely true told by james hicks and other other black journalists who had investigated the case more carefully and told a vastly different story but it was a story that weight america's simply didn't hear because james hicks was writing for black publications the baltimore afro american the cleveland colin post <hes> the famous postmortem of till is shown in jet magazine and so there was a small small contingent of black press in sumner mississippi gathered there for the trial and what's so interesting is right smack in the middle of the trial the black press largely <hes> in james hicks marvelous job telling the story <hes> they in the middle of the night go find five witnesses to the actual beating of emmett till and so the white preston touch the story they didn't really tell the story the huey supposed confession and because it was marketed confession so many people took it as the truth and again it simply wasn't <hes> it was a series of lies to protect j w roy brian's friends from further prosecution but the people who really got the story almost dead on wor was the black press well. Let's take a moment then and run through a condensed condensed version of the real story. What happened <hes> on that day. August twenty eighth on august twenty eighth <hes> emmett in his cousins with backup to the the twenty seventh which was a saturday they had gone into greenwood and had a night of fun <hes> as a group of cousins on summer break with do they drive back dak late saturday night going sunday morning back to the right residents which is about <hes> twelve miles north of greenwood in money and they get back due to the right residence <hes> go to bed and moses right testify is about two or two thirty he hears two men at the door asking the boy who had done the talking down at money and at that point the two men walk into the house right did not invite them into the house they just kind of burst into the house with their they're forty five handguns and flashlights <hes> and start going from room to room and eventually they find it and they pull him out of bed and he gets dressed and <hes> as they're leaving elizabeth right moses writes wife <hes> is begging them in if money will pay you money. Please don't take him they. They know what incredible danger is at this point and <hes> as they leave the house j._d. Milem turns to moses right and says <hes> something to the effect of preacher if <hes> if you want he asked him how old he is and preacher says <hes> sixty four and he says well if you want to see if you wanna make it to sixty five. You're not gonna tell anybody about what we're doing here off. They go they get into. We're not sure if it's a car or a truck and moses right testifies at the trial later that he heard somebody say is this the boy and moses right testifies and i think these are exactly his words in voice lighter than a man's <hes>. The person person says yes that's him. Is that carolyn bryant. That's the speculation because she could i._d. The boy she could i._d. She could identify amit and off. They went back towards money with the lights off and that's the last point at which moses right saw his great nephew what's interesting to me is a historian orient the case because we really just don't know i don't know that we ever will know this was about two thirty in the morning on sunday august twenty eighth the next i witnessed that we we have seen the men and emmett till is about six or six thirty in the morning forty miles away just outside the town of drew mississippi and we know this is good testimony tony because willie reed actually testified at the trial and would testify to his dying day that he had seen until on the back of a pickup truck with with two or three black men holding him in the back of this pickup truck <hes> several whiteman driving the pickup truck including j w mile roy bryant and they were going to they stirred up on the the plantation was called a stir on plantation owned by the sturt avante family and the reason they were out there was because they had a half brother by the name of leslie milem silom who managed that plantation and so they clearly wanted to beat and torture and eventually kill emmett till away from a crowd they didn't they didn't want to draw attention attention to themselves and willie reed just happened to be walking down the street that early that sunday morning <hes> when he saw this green and white chevy pickup truck with emmett till on the back of it and later he heard the beating the beating happened in a in a small seed barn on this plantation and he told some other people about it 'cause they a several people heard this awful beating happening in the shed later he saw a pickup truck back up to the shed in probably at that point put in emmett's body over tarp and this is probably about seven o'clock so the sun is up <hes> and they got to do something with this body and so again for me as a historian. I'm interested in okay from to thirty the time they took. 'em it for money until about six or six thirty up near drew what was happening in those three or four hours what was going on and the best we can guess is is that milem and bryant were getting together their people they were going to make something of an event of this and it took a while for that to unfold <hes> <hes> pre cell phone pre anything bryant's had a phone in the store so <hes> but it's it's one of the mystery still that we just don't know and and the awful fool terror that emmett no doubt experienced in those four hours 'cause <hes> he probably knew at that point that his life was engraved dangerous american history tellers sponsored by quip summer's over the vacation's done. The kids are back in school. 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Many many african american men had been murdered by white supremacists before but what what about murder push civil rights leaders to act whether it was a couple of things <hes> i think one is you know him. It was a child who's fourteen <hes> perhaps more importantly he he was from chicago and his mother had friends and family who were pretty well connected with the a._c._p. In chicago and it immediately it became a story in the chicago. Defender probably the nation's largest black newspaper and so the story unlike a lot of <hes> young mississippi black men who mysteriously go missing <hes> this one didn't happen quite that way because it was not a mississippi boy he was from chicago and his mom immediately <hes> <hes> activated her network of people and people began writing about this case so it went from a and you can see it happened in the mississippi press it goes from being this very local story <hes> told him the greenwood commonwealth and other newspapers to quite literally exploding within a week after his body is discovered one of the trip wires <hes> to make the story a national one occurred on september first so literally the day after the body is discovered roy wilkins. Who's the head of the end of lacey eighteen nationally comes out and all but accuses every mississippi in a being a child killer and just very inflammatory statement and he should in hindsight he shouldn't have set and of course the the white mississippi press took wilkins's comments and ran with them and in that case you you can see a pivot almost overnight in terms of how the press treated this case especially in mississippi. It went from being a case about. Can you believe what these two white men did too much more of a national focus us and let's watch and see how northern black people are coming to attack southern white people so it becomes this big big case about about race immediately and roy wilkins really was one of the people who ignited that case so emmett till's murder was the moment when the civil rights movement became the movement. We we know it gained its momentum. Why is that so. There's a couple of explanations for listen. They're really really interesting lindsay. The first is <hes> so the keep in mind when the until cases happening in august and september in november of nineteen fifty five on december first a seamstress over in montgomery alabama refuses to give up her bus seat in we know her of course as rosa parks and rosa parks many many years later not in nineteen fifty five and not a nineteen sixty five but really end of the nineteen nineties she came out very publicly and said when i stayed seated on a montgomery bus i was thinking of emmett till and so what this did immediately really was drew a pretty direct line from emmett till's kidnap and murder and the injustice from it directly to her act of resistance and we know from her active resistance we can draw a straight line to the montgomery boycott bus boycott and a really direct line for at that point to dr martin luther king and so you see what's happening here. We're we're we're were stitching together. Civil rights history were going directly from money mississippi to montgomery and the rise of dr king and so that's a that's a very powerful <hes> and compelling case that a lot of people are making about amatil being the catalyst for the movement. I would argue. There's two other things going on here that don't get a lot of airtime needs more airtime but in one thousand nine hundred sixty in february of nineteen sixty in greensboro north carolina we know that four freshman from north carolina a and t sat in at a woolworth's counter her <hes> and were arrested and shortly thereafter this movement of eighteen and nineteen and twenty year old black college kids across the deep south it just happened and overnight it it it was <hes> it was on college campuses and communities all over the deep south of the sit in movement and what we tend to forget add about this generation of eighteen and nineteen and twenty year olds as they were there emmett's generation they were fourteen and fifteen when emmett was murdered and and their parents subscribe to jet magazine and so what came out of this movement is the student on violent coordinating committee is formed literally in april of nineteen sixty by ella baker and a lot of snow kids would later say what got me into the movement was seeing those horrific images of emmett till there's a third sense in in which emmett till i think could be argued as a catalyst for the movement and it wasn't until recently that i heard this interview but the main organizer for the student a nonviolent coordinating committee in greenwood very close to money was a fellow by the name of sam block and <hes> josephson shurmur who was an undergraduate at duke when these interviews interviews were done back in the eighties interviewed block and block. Is this fascinating interview. Where for the first time i heard that the reason he was able to organize greenwood in sixty two and sixty three is people were still mad about the till case and snick moves its headquarters greenwood in the early sixties such as the the fervor there to organize and so i think <hes> from rosa parks <hes> from the snick generation which is really the emmett till generation and locals in greenwood wanting to organize because they're still angry about the till case. I think that's how emmett till matters. In terms of catalyzing what became the movement there was another moment that proved pivotal and that was till's mother's decision to hold an open casket funeral and then the photo that was published in jet magazine. What did this her decision do well it it it immediately. Media radicalized a generation of black parents and black children as what it did because it a lot of people think oh that that photo just circulated in jet magazine zine and while jet was kind of the premier publication of black america nineteen fifty five that also ran in black newspapers around the country. My colleagues and i have have collected a lot of these papers. Just kinda see where that photograph and there's a couple of photographs. There's not just one or did those gruesome photographs run and they ran all the way from from washington d._c. All the way out west to los angeles white america did not see those photographs <hes> to this day <hes> you can find him of course online but white america did not grow up with those images amatil <hes> after they fished him out of the river and so what happened was <hes> blacks in chicago lined up to bear witness this <hes> she she not only let the black press come in and photograph the corpse but she at that point said i'm going to have an open casket funeral and we're going to have two days two full days of showing this body to whoever wants to see it in so chicago turned out for it. <hes> the estimates are upwards of fifty to one hundred thousand people which is hard had to imagine but you see my point. Black chicago turned out to look at this monstrosity that had come back from mississippi so tell me about your app one of the places you highlight. What's what's the user experience the way the app works is it's based on a map in eighteen locations and so you oh using your your smartphone are going to see these eighteen sites and you can kind of customize the experience in in terms of where you want to start so let's say you wanna start at the bryant grocery store in in money. Where can you go from there. That's nearby well. The apps going to tell you the closest says place nearby is the right house which is about three miles away and then when you're at the right house <hes> the place that's gonna show up. Next is the church which is just down the street where they were going to goes right preached but also where they were going to bury. 'em it and so what you're going to see on your phone is you're gonna see some pictures <hes> some recent pictures of the site but you're also we're going to see some pictures from nineteen fifty five and then you're also if you wanna pull it up. You're going to get kind of narrative experience of why the site is significant and what we wanted to do was so each site has about five hundred to eight hundred word essay that that kind of complicates things that gives you the basic history but but will also we also didn't want to oversimplify. We wanted to kind of let viewers have their own experience and kind of say okay so <hes> historian say. They say they say you see. We don't know exactly how this all played out but the point is here. The different versions of history <hes> that we're going to support at this particular particular site in fact here are the archival documents that florida state university has in our emmett till archive that support these different interpretations here are some photographs of people involved in the case we were. We're trying to tell a complicated story. We're not we're not trying to make this real simple so i'm interested if you've heard from any users at the app on their pilgrimage through the emmett till story one is their emotional experience for why are they drawn to this event in history yeah lindsey we we really haven't had the feedback yet because the the app just went live not too long ago literally weeks ago <hes> so we really haven't had a lot of of user experience with the app yet but <hes> but i can tell you having been at these sites countless times over the years. It's just your when especially let's start again back at the bryant store arguably lee you are at ground zero of american civil rights history in this in this nowhere place in the middle of the delta and <hes> you are literally standing on the porch were emmett stood food and whistled at carolyn bryant and then you're standing in the cemetery where emmett's body was initially buried. We can talk about that later why he was going to be buried. There wasn't so it's it's just the proximity to history <hes> as my students have experienced it through the years. I took a class <hes> there. In two thousand seventeen most recently took ah eleven and my students to the delta and <hes> it's just a different experience. It's <hes> it's not reading a book. It's <hes> it's walking emmett's footsteps. It's walking in the killer's. Footsteps stops it seeing where the killers are buried. It's walking on a local plantation. It is wandering in the cemetery. It's <hes> that proximity just changes the experience employment american history tellers is sponsored by mail chimp. So you want want to grow your business. 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Today and mail chimp will be there to help as your business grows and needs new capabilities so if you want to grow your business you're wondering now what mail chimp that's what learn more at mail chimp dot com <music> so you mentioned that emmett was intended to be buried in a cemetery there in mississippi but that it was not what's the story there. The body was so awfully decomposed posed that the family wanted to get it in the ground. Immediately and preparations were made at the east money church of god in christ east to where we're again. Moses wright was a preacher up until nineteen forty nine. There was a little cemetery there and a grave had been dug. They were going to have the service in the afternoon afternoon of the thirty first the same day as body came out of the river and somehow some way mamie till got wind of this and again the communications were really really hard because so many people in mississippi simply didn't have a phone <hes> but crosby smith who was moses writes brother-in-law in lived up in sumner about twenty twenty miles away shows up with a deputy sheriff at kind of the last hour before the body's getting ready to be buried and says this body is not being buried here in money mississippi today. It's actually going north to chicago. It's going home and so maybe till was again. You know the many many of her heroic acts. This was kind of one of the first ones which is to say no no no. I wanna see that body. The bodies coming back and soak crosby smith who for me is one of the unspoken heroes of the case for what he did for the family and in an as soon as emmett was kidnapped <hes> at two thirty in the morning <hes> the first thing moses right in elizabeth a threat did was they drove up to sumner to figure out with crosby smith. What should they do. Should they go to the police because jay w mile already threaten britain moses rights life. What should we do our you know our kids now missing and so- crosby smith <hes> with is just kind of a heroic brave figuring all of this but he shows up with a deputy sheriff and says note the body's going back to chicago and in fact if i have to take the body myself back to chicago. I'm going to do it because that's what i promised mamie till so at that point the body <hes> it. It's it's eventually embalmed and <hes> is put on a train and arrives back back <hes> in chicago on the second and of course <hes> just not to find a point on it but with without that body coming north. We probably probably don't know this story emmett. Till's death was sixty four years ago but he's obviously still a potent symbol of african american civil rights today and unfortunately just last month <hes> in the news again when three white students from the university of mississippi pose with with guns next to a bullet riddled old sign honoring till this kind of animism has happened before what is the response in the community in mississippi and across the country that this still still goes on while the response has been a lot of outrage a lot of i can't believe the still happening in two thousand and nineteen nineteen but on the ole miss campus when jerry mitchell broke that story he later interviewed some ole miss students and <hes> they didn't know who emmett till was. They didn't know why the story matter. They didn't know why those three frat brothers posing in front of a sign with guns. John's was a big issue. I think having not interviewed a bunch of white people in mississippi who are hostile to emmett till i do this that having talked to do a lot of white. Mississippians is white mississippians and black mississippians. Do not share the same history of who emmett till was and what he did and so i think a lot of white mississippians or probably they feel pretty aggrieved that this chicago boys on their landscape forever and they don't like it and they think of him as has a would be rapist of white women and again. That's the william bradford huey narrative. The narrative is still there. <hes> part of what we're trying to do with the app is to change that narrative <hes> but it's gonna take some time and we're not naive about that is that perhaps the reason for the app and your interest in this event that that this story needs to be known even though it was a critical turning point for the civil rights movement. How do we forget the story and then remember it for for nearly thirty years <hes> than aim at emmett till oh was simply it it there was no circulation of the name at all <hes> especially in popular culture in film documentary <hes> the academics weren't talking thing about him at all and so for thirty years kind of there's this void and what begins to change is the <hes> the documentary eyes on the prize <hes> directed and produced by henry hampton. <hes> changes everything. This documentary is shown for the first time on p._b._s. In nineteen eighty seven and the in the first episode called awakenings in this is red readily available online. If your listeners wanna one of you it but very early on in awakenings awakenings <hes> we have about fifteen minutes segment on the till case using lots of archival footage using lots of interviews with moses right using interviews with james hicks so telling the black presses point of view on this and it's a fascinating fifteen minutes and this is one thousand nine hundred eighty seven and so this very prominent documentary starts to breathe some life back into the case a couple years later we get our one of our first books by stephen j whitfield at brandeis recently retired called a death in the delta and this takes us into the ninety s and <hes> some filmmakers get interested in the case. One of them is <hes> good friend. Keith beauchamp and keith had promised mamie till until her dying day that he would we get justice for helmet and he does a really terrific documentary that is so good and the interviewing is so powerful that the f._b._i. Gets interested the f. b. I. <hes> reopens its case in two thousand and four and dedicates a lot of resources to trying to get justice for him until <hes> in two thousand seven. There was a grand jury that was convened. They heard the evidence that dale kellinger and the f._b._i. Had collected and they did not issue an indictment statement we know from <hes> the reporting on the case that <hes> killing her in particular had his eyes on carolyn bryant who is one of the very few survivors still alive <hes> in a black man by the name of henry loggins who may have been in the truck that night <hes> but there was no indictment in two thousand seven and so that put the case <hes> the front page news <hes> george w bush signs the emmett till unsolved civil rights bill in two thousand and eight which gives resources of the federal government to <hes> <hes> investigating unsolved civil rights murders so <hes> yeah the groundswell of emmett till interest really really picks up in the nineties and then and really <hes> move forward in the two thousands and here we are today where it seems like whenever young black boys murdered <hes> especially if there's no justice <hes> <hes> emmett till's name starts to circulate right whether it's martin lee anderson here in florida or trayvon martin or jordan davis <hes>. It seems like whenever a young black male is murdered in there's suspicion about that murder in this country the the name emmett till comes up and so we've we need an accurate history of emmett till was in the first place we were. We're getting closer to that but we're still a long way away davis. How thank you for talking to me today lindsey. I appreciate you having me. That was my conversation with florida state university professor davis how you can find wind his app the emmett till memory project on the apple app store or google play. There's also linked to the project's website in the show notes and next on american history tellers long before for the island of manhattan became the dense and bustling metropolis. We know today it was part of a dutch colony with two principals at its core tolerance and capitalism. Those principles helped shape the city of new york but how the dutch came to settle the area and see those ideas is all the result of a massive blunder in our next series on dutch manhattan in hatton. We look back at how legendary explorer henry hudson discovered manhattan and how his decisions altered the course of history and spurred the development of one of the world's greatest cities from wondering this is american history tellers help. You enjoyed this episode. If you did subscribe now on apple podcasts uncast spotify google podcast one dot com or wherever you listen to this right now if you're listening on a smartphone tap or swipe over the cover art of this podcast you find the episode so not including some details you may have missed you'll also find some offers from our sponsors by supporting them. You help us offer this show too for free and if you do like the show we love you to give us a five star rating and leave review. I always love to know your thoughts and reviews are the best way for others to find the show. Tell your friends and family show them how to subscribe you can also find us and me on twitter and facebook follow the show at h. tellers. I'm at lindsey graham. Thank you american history tellers. This hosted edited and produced adduced by me lindsey graham for airship. This episode was produced by lea hernandez and adriaan a cargo jenny. Lower beckmann is editor and producer. Our executive producer is marshall louis. We created by hernan lopez for wondering.

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The Hamilton Effect and Mike Boynton Edition

Courtside with Seth Greenberg

52:16 min | 9 months ago

The Hamilton Effect and Mike Boynton Edition

"At the BUZZER. saw. Sometimes, they do. courtside with Greenberg and dockage the definitive college basketball podcast. World's greatest podcast notice courts I've agree burger docket we're going to have Mike hundred second the Oklahoma state head coach who has terrific basketball team by the way. These square. I got a text message from you to say that said basically I'm running hot. Give me some space. Floor is yours well I. I'm disgusted and I was thinking about this. Couple of years ago the NFL had a problem. They had a problem with concussions. They had a league wide prob. Lot of people thought the NFL was gonNA. Go Away what they do. They fix the problem internally no hits to the head different rules. College basketball has monster profit college basketball has a perception problem that everybody cheats and I'm GonNa tell you something seth I'm starting to believe everybody doesn't I'll tell you why there's absolutely no accountability. Is None, we'll wait has a job Shawn Miller has a job five violations. This isn't the first time, major violations nine total, and these guys have jobs as my wife who was a college softball coach and a great one. Said there no rules in college basketball? There's no accountability in college basketball where athletic drugs but more importantly set where the hell are the coaches we used to have guys stand up we used to have John John? L.. Dean Smith stood up. John Thompson stood up Bob. Knight's stood up where these guys worse K. where's anybody denouncing guys cheating you don't modern college basketball coaches do they count their damn money? They learn how to kiss players asses and they make sure that their little world their little empire is safe and I'm tired of, Hey, we've seen this. We've seen this in in football college football coaches. They police themselves a lot of ways behind the Scenes College Basketball Coaches Hail College basketball is going down the tubes college basketball's problem is perception the perception that only march madness counts the perception that everybody is cheating and I gotTa tell you Seth I find it hard to believe that they're not right. I mean we talked to coach is all the time and they talk about man and Blah Blah Blah Blah my ass, and then they all know they all know you can cheat they all know you should cheat. Two Thousand and two I get the West Virginia job some dumb ASS president there threatened me and my wife. So I say to hell with no working for some guy, I, go from five hundred, thousand back to one hundred, twenty, five, thousand back to the MAC and I get ripped still get rea-. Well, you know what I can live with myself I. Don't know how these college coaches live with themselves. I don't know how these guys make deals like they do. And then look at the camera like their frigging angels like they're just these poor saintly guys. It only want the best for their players they're buying and selling every day and I'm sick of it I'm serious. We need to save college basketball, not you and I, but the college coaches, the perception problem is horrible seth, we're a month away. From College basketball starting, and there is literally no buzz. Why because people first and foremost pay attention to the NFL because the NFL is smart enough to go year round cal Peres been saying go in August with college basketball forever and he's right hell yes he's right. The other thing is the perception of college basketball which has more inventory on television than any other sport is that guys bunch of bought and sold players I never believed that until Recently swear to God said ice to hear guys say that and I would fight tooth and nail no, you don't understand no. But when I see guys just blatantly get away with stuff when I see guys that just simply thumb their nose at any type rules and I don't see other coaches calling anybody out I don't see anything other than some whatever from the NABC I think it's garbage I do and I think it's got to be fixed. And I think there's got to be a come to Jesus where people just decided. I'm not talking about just coaches. I'm talking about school administrators. Is it really that important? The six thousand people that come to see fricken Lsu at a place is it really that important to tarnish your whole university get your five thousand people in your twelve thousand seat but is it really that important I mean? Your whole university when it comes to sports at least in basketball is looked at in a certain way. Is it really that important like nobody else in the world can win at Arizona like nobody can win at Arizona except a guy that continually is in the news for cheating. Can I understand due process great but this has been going on for two years. Is he the only guy in Arizona that can win a basketball game there so Arizona is it worth it? The have this every six months maybe. Maybe, it is man and I know there's more to it. I know there's contracts but Dan, we're supposed to be higher education I. We're supposed to be teaching life lessons I. If I'm a player there Zona you and I know man, my coach is slick holy cow he I want a man coast how do you keep escaping John Gotti and I? Think it's crap south. And I think we're at a pivotal moment here because college basketball we just saw isn't going to even have maybe the champions classic maybe not Jimmy V. Maybe not some of the marquee events. And Man Oh man when you start slipping. In a world dominated by football, it's going to be hard to climb back up that mountain set anyway. I am running hot. I I like I. Say this. I'm a guy and this is a fact I'm a guy didn't drink didn't small did was go on my court and play basketball and loved and revered coaches I used to go in between games in the Indiana high school associated to a place called the Coney King with my dad because all the great Gary Indiana coaches would come in their Brown Ron Heflin. Earl Smith these guys would. These guys would come in and I'd sit there and I just have eyes wide open just listening to coaches. There's a coach, my dad played Ford Iowa state maybe nobody ever heard of buzz connor but buzz connor came to my data mouth was Christmas and I sat there is a little fricken kidman buzz connor I didn't know what the hell he was but I knew a head coach at Idaho state that was big to me and so I revealed coaches set but this is making me crazy excuse my language because we gotta do something and you and I had this platform we can talk but said truthfully It's just a platform somebody's GONNA get their head on our ass out of there s quit cheat some admit the only guy that can win the Kansas bill sell. He's the only guy in the history of Kansas everywhere. I can look at Kansas Histories. Pretty Damn good lot of coaches WANNA can't. That's the only got to win only got. Zone is frigging showing only guy can fill twelve twelve hundred people new hope seats at Lsu. Is this guy way come up there you go. Iran as heard a years I, a couple things first of all in the one thing that I've always said is cheating is not a victimless crime. Guys cheating. It's GONNA cost another guy job I mean that just the way it is it's not a victimless crime, and in fact, when back conversation comes up, I get calls from guys that have been fired and say wait a second here I like here's the deal the residual effect of Jigme. The second thing is I think we've got a great opportunity right now for college, basketball. Compete against the NBA. So for the next month and a half, if we can get off the ground of we can get past the restrictions you know that we're losing some of the events that more Disney issue than than anything else because the coach. But but we will own the sport for about eight weeks. We need to seize that moment and you're right. We need to find a way to have some positive momentum and seize that opportunity because. I know Calipari is the evil empire right? Everybody. Put when I see it, and if somebody wants to tell me well, he's a cheater then prove. Right. Of all these guys and they were talking about cheating the SEC, know pat for yard call cows name wasn't there. If you look at positively coming out of a program, where do you see at first and foremost but nobody wants to pay attention to it it's not a Kentucky. Kids are going to the NBA and even more importantly, and this is something that I never gets in trouble no one gets in trouble but seth, they give back to their damn university. They were taught to respect where the hell they play and what they're doing and I think that is so freaking important. Look I'm we need positive? We need we need accountability. We. Need I. Don't know. We just need more people to say look it. Is it right? That a border region is GonNa let guys keep jobs. It isn't right that people can be on tape talking about a big ass offers or whatever. It's not right and you say that that's fine. We have a pretty good platform but man, would it be more powerful coming from other coaches publicly but everybody's afraid to do it and I don't understand why La Cosa Nostra. I think people are the mindset of Control Your controllables. What can you control it with with with your world? And, and that's just the way it is. Way This sport was grown. Way. Way Way Back David the guys who cheated they used to have a say auto amongst thieves. it is still exist I don't know but here's the deal. If nothing happens in the next six months nothing happens in next six months with these inter these outside of. Investigations that the NCW created that protocol. Right all hell's going to break loose. All has PRACTI- you. and. I know you read that article forty, two, million dollars for two million dollars the the coaches that are under investigation right now. Since the start of the southern district of new. York's investigation the FBI investigation. Those coaches are about forty, two, million dollars. The cheating doesn't pay college basketball. A lot of money and that, and that's US get your attention nothing. How how many guys have been fired because it? Those forty two, million dollar man. That they couldn't beat him to conference they. They didn't have enough players to handle them in a semi-final man one final would of you know anyway It's I, consider it like steroids in baseball. You know people know that they're doing. No one wants to call each other out and it's not victimless because that second baseman in Aa that did things right? He's selling insurance where that's second baseman back in the day did started doing royds and he's hitting twenty five home runs in the big leagues. It's not. You're exactly right this is not a victimless crime. And it but it you know it's not new. It's been around for a while. you know it unless the NC Double A. in this new protocol. Has. An impact. It's not going anywhere. And that's just the way it is you what there are guys that have stepped up and said it but I mean, they're not guys like John Thompson Coach Night Dean Smith I think people people become numb to it. I think people. To it because the reason people come to because is a third party that has gotten involved in this process I think back in the day, it was just a coach. Taking care of a prospect is parents someone now it's a money manager. Now it's an agent. Now it's a new program where muddle money is being laundered through at funneled through to take over. Now, it's a church where people are making contributions to church and finally my back at the prospect each become a very. Elaborate business with so many different entities opposite I've you mentioned shoe companies Like. You know you speak to some guys lottery talked to Kristen Roger Stuck with money man I, just talked to the doctor the you know to the agent that that supports you program. I just talked to this guy I just talked back in and that's the deal shoot companies zero does she companies who all face shoe companies have habit at something best let me ask you this if NFL Susan and ails GonNa Pass. Does it resolved the issues or just make cheating legal? Said I think there's only one thing that resolves the issues and I've said this and every coach agrees with me I've said this for ten years. Till, you make the punishment, the risks outweigh the reward you got enough. I mean you literally got nothing I mean. Countable the presence why would. Why wouldn't I'm disappointed in this? ADP's at one point we're starting to get fired I. saw it at Indiana with Greenspan I've seen it other places because it coaches cheated. Well. That seems like it stopped or a dis of said, you know what I know I'm GonNa get fired if I fire Shawn Miller. Whoever guess what I'm not doing we're not admitting it because I'm not going down with that ship. We're GONNA fight and it's just discussed. A looked set I get it I get it if this is the NBA. Overseas Professional Basketball I get it if this is the G. League, but we're sitting here and all these guys where a little suits and they talk about pride and university and what we do for these young men, my ass and I'm talking about the president's here and that's what I'm talking about. You know one thing I've always said this and I'm you know better than anybody that I am not a defender above night but I'll tell you this man. Did would go play places that do played on home courts of other people and that dude I'm I. If you cheated even one phone even made a mistake in terms of I call the other system called the guy the same week when it was one phone call, your ass was fired and you'd better find your way back on that staff and I have so much respect for that. Now is I look over? What's happening now because what you said is absolutely true at what you said, we deal with the money manager we deal with this guy we deal with this shoe company, we deal with this this I I give I give guy like night or guy like John Thompson. When he passed away the, you know the biggest drug dealer. In DC he called him in and said, you know messing with my players in the guy said yes. Sir, look. I feel like. Kind of what you said honor among these. But now it's gotten to the point where if you're and my point I guess is more than anything else if you really really study and Love College basketball, we are at a position of crisis I. Know We have a chance here to dominate the sport, but are people going to pay attention does anybody care when the sport is viewed as completely corrupt and I swear to God it would be so easy to fix again people thought the NFL was going away because of head injuries all you heard for two years. Head injuries, Bom, Bom Bom. Next thing you know man they got together they figured it out college basketball that old thing where you got a hand and you've got five fingers or forefingers in Thumb Gonen seven direction or got to. Trust, you Yeah I. Feel like football decided we're going to become a fist and I feel like college basketball's a hand that that is only and the best. The most. The most influential coaches, the richest coaches care about one single thing, their interests, their little mountain top and I think we gotta look at that seriously and we gotta at least talk about in that perspective, we get people involved in people in a fist. All right. Here's my before we get Mike Breaking on online i. I think the sentiment in the public. Is Different Than It was twenty years ago I think the sentiment in the public. Matinee profession not the guys that are getting fired but in the public is these kids you know we've got to the point where all woes me these kids being exploited they deserve to get paid. This is not your skirt. And I actually think sentiment in the public is live. There's nothing wrong with these guys. I. Really believe I I really believe that I don't know if I'm right but I think that there's so much set the. Publicly, that the these kids which is to me personally I I disagree with it. But I think that's Probably late. Because you don't, you got rich folks personal added. Nine percents guys in. Guys that get you to get coaching money no had no idea I never knew I'd never knew until I went to Virginia Tech I second contract I'm trying to get I never asked Last. I didn't have an agent. So I I I do think public settlement is such that that is is Hurting us a public sentiment that the mad at the Wilson we're going to find out with an eye on the players. I got feeling is they'll be one or two guys at something that's going to happen for guys will. Make money as influencers, but the money that people think dispute or out all over the place is what would people think it's going to be and I'm interested in the fall but we're gonna Mike White coming on the show from Oklahoma state who's got really really he's weathered. A little bit of a store and I got a pretty interesting game. All right. We want to welcome you guys into the world's we call it. The world's greatest podcasts. We don't know why but we really is. It. Basically, what we do is we try to make this like a bunch of coaches talk ball This is the anti Guru podcast the. Insider podcast where you know people think they know but they don't know what they don't know. So welcome and I just real quickly. I. Just. Start with the pandemic stuff and everything right last last year. we get word obviously that the season shutting down. What what is this time in between that? That moment and where we are in this moment in time good for you, your program, your staffed your family. First of all the guys I appreciate you having me I I, say this I think it was march twelfth that we left Kansas City from all conference tournament. We have won a game tonight before our team was playing really well at the end of the season last year and know we're GonNa play and Kansas City. So it's a it's GonNa be a tough game. But you know we're excited to be planned at that time of year and obviously just the sheer shop course of just the season being castle just almost like an instant if felt like and then I couldn't imagine at that time be perfectly honest I would be sitting here on October twenty seven. Still essentially with the ramifications of it all and it'd be honest I'm sitting here on October twenty seven to get ready for this season and I don't even have a schedule. For I guess I'm supposed to play game listen thirty days. So it's been it's been absolutely crazy What I've tried to do is be positive with a guy. Try to miss. There's always a lesson and everything that you go through and try to get our guys to see where the lessons are here. Opportunities could CA- show some resiliency? Some adaptability. And I think for the most part our kids have done that. So I'm very very appreciative him. Coach I just saw something on twitter Fran for Shell tweet tweeted, and you said never been more proud of a coacher young man talking about de Mitchell he's a walk-on but a starve, and this is so important to me on the list of people I want my son East look up to D Mitchell is number one can you talk about this walk on kid and give a little of the background of all this stuff this kids involved in Yeah it's a pretty incredible story. Subsidy mentions a kid from East Texas Jefferson Texas to be exact He came here. This is a regular student He's a junior now. So two years ago he had play basketball in high school, but he's from a small town and he'd never really got recruited at a at a at a serious level. So he just. Can't Oklahoma state to to be a student He actually came to my office during the fall semester of that year and asked about you know walking on and being around the team at that time we hadn't planned on adding any walk ons told, Hey, you know let's stay in touch man an email is follow up You never know how this turns out. That season in the middle of the year I have to dismiss six guys in in. January and we have open tryouts and D. Mitchell was one of the kids that came out to those open tryouts It just been a student here on campus heard about it and wanted to give a shot. So he ended up making the team as a walk on that and stay with us the end of the year funny story we go to Texas Tech team that year that went to I believe it was the finals they almost Gra national championship and he he makes a big shot in the second half of that game as a walk on Almost helpless win. And then he comes back last year he's continued to be with us. He's continued to work hard have a great attitude, but this obviously everybody's been affected by this pandemic and one way or the other one the effects of the pandemic is d Mitchell's mom lost her job and he came to me in August said he comes I'm not sure I can. I can stay with the team had to get a job to help my mom pay for me to go to school. I don't know what I'm GonNa Work I. Don't know what I'm GonNa do I have to do this about school? So I asked him, I said be wh. Tell me how many hours taking you said I'm in nineteen hours, which is basically six classes unheard of what not to be honest. And so I'm like being you sure you can work and do that 'cause I don't have a choice I said, well, listen if you're gonNA, commit yourself to be dedicated to doing things the right way you have a spot here I don't care if you can only sell the practice one day a week if you can show up three days a week. But whenever you could be here, we want you around we need de metals around our program. So he got a job at Walmart about a week. Later he's been working forty hours a week at Walmart these he showed up the practice probably three days a week outside of that. The always comes in left at six am before he goes to work a class with our strength coach. He always comes after his worship to shoot without managing G. A. I. Mean you're talking about a absolute superstar kid who won't take? His circumstances and let them define him that kids an absolute star and I've been everywhere said he's on the list of guys that I want my son to look up to be Mitchell's the more. That's great stuff now that that that's You Know Dan and I were we literally just talk about the state of college basketball and like you know how out maybe. As lost its sex PM, a story like that right everyone gets caught up in. When everyone gets caught up You know transfer way resent any gets caught up in. Getting off players are being exploited or this that whatever it is. Here's a guy that just. You know he appreciates he appreciates you appreciates a grim state appreciate the opportunity he's going to get as much out of it. As. You could possibly get out of it and I, mean, that's just an incredible incredible story and. I this could So suburb, every program has values, core values, standards, whatever you want different pulses called different things. We we call the four pillars of Oklahoma state basketball and they are respect appreciation, accountability and discipline, and I couldn't look dimensioned interface knowing that what he represents his all those things that Calvin that he could be a part of our team because he was going to have to work a little harder to make it happen and so I wanNA ever recruit that I've talked to understand metro story and the impact that that young man because of his attitude and approach. He's going to be a successful amount of what he decided to. Access that that that is. I'm sorry we'll have to beat this out, but that's good and. That's just I mean that. Stuff I mean, that's that's real stuff. I I think we do get. So caught up in the answer everything the things that sell you know articles, newspapers or get headlines that we forget the true mission of our our profession. is to to help the people ID metro successful, and the other young guys that everybody's past isn't the NBA we talked about pros way too much with that many pros and cons ask ball there's some really good college basketball players. But most of these guys are GonNa go do something else to make eleven. And more we could talk about that and get back to the essence of what profession is supposed to be about the sooner we'll get back to have been been pretty sexy professional be in pretty sexy I think for people to look into. I'll man that's one hundred percent I mean like. Bad that that. That is right on it. I mean, like here's the deal I mean. I always talk about what we we we devalued value of education devalued value of college experience. We devalue value of the networks than developed through. Athletic. Stability British forecast cross after they're done playing and you know everyone runs their own race in everyone's a different race and got some guys run the race it again babe. Quick one point zero percent. What the rest of the dudes big got to actually be up to integrated to rest of society and and and that's what college peaches you whether an athlete or not an athlete. So I mean that's just an awesome story. On on the other end, you got cade Cunningham. The CEO who who is that that? Point Zero Zero, zero, one percent. Just having a guy like that. In your program guy that could have after you. said that you guys would be eligible to participate in the incidentally Purdham, which took you guys are appealing So you know a coach. I'm with you. You gave him an opportunity. You told me you're GonNa make phone calls you told them that. Whatever you do and I'm going to support you what has been like having. That guy on your campus with your team is. A really good basketball date you you've got experience in the right places you've got gotTa Star Player. But what's that guy meant to you his loyalty to just wanting to be part of Oklahoma State? It's been remarkable and if I could just just just clearly we are telling the decision by the. Way And because of that and I wanNA kind of get the south because it's been this represented a little bit stand why If the NCAA tournament was played today Oklahoma State would be eligible for the tournament. So we are eligible until which time the feel finalized and they say it stands. So that's kind of putting projected. Say When? I understand why they're saying that but this is not technically true as of today we're appealing. So it's the penalty, the state So if the tournament was played before the state's finalize, which could you know crazy things that happen during pandemic we would be eligible for the tournament we have a teen could will make it. But no caution caves been tremendous to have here obviously because we feel like he helps our team from a talent standpoint, elevate the level of our program At the same time, we have an obligation to make sure we hold him to the same standards that we hold the metre too so that he can have the maximum amount of success that he's capable haven't, and so my job as find ways to challenge him, which is going to look very different than away challenge D- Metro, but it has the same purpose. How do we get him to be able to maximize his communist campus which you know all the expectations are won't be very long. The best thing about is he unbelievable team? He's extremely cultural and he wants to be really good. Which means he's got humility about him. He doesn't believe that he knows everything. He comes to watch as much as anybody does, which is very rare for a freshman. He calls and he asks questions after reviewing practice tape about things ways can get better. This'll because of those things that you really can't measure, you can't find out until you have a kid on campus how invested they are brutal. He's going to have a to really help our how success on the court also put himself in position where he can be able to make the next league. Coach how much do you have to balance? I coached a team for seven games at Indiana that. was extremely jealous of a one and done and Eric Gordon and there's a balance there. How is that going? I it's been my my experience beyond his probably looked different deals because it wasn't as widely accepted. Back then right it's so it's so on a normal, it almost would be. Borderline criminals. He wasn't a able to leave after this year somehow right that if you came back to school next year, it would be more of A. Criticism than would be praised So I think just dealing with a different circumstance, his teammates love them part what we got here is. He's from not far from here. Still was about a Flower Job Dallas weights from we've got several guys our team from Dallas who all grew up playing with him watching him play. So they respected ability they know he's good enough to help them be better and because he hasn't comported himself in a way that says I'm better than you right? He's just a regular guy he wants to be. Just. A regular guy in the locker room So his teammates don't really look at him different because he doesn't carry himself different, right? He doesn't ask for special order when we eat, he doesn't want a place to live He doesn't want to be the guy that has the bonus has every possession is so because he's he's had he has that humility he he's been widely accepted by teammates. Wanting that that that's that's a hecker statement because I always had this kind of mindset if you have one one and Don, your Dan does he? Heard me say before I move you saw what happened set Washington last year, which I should have had to. A LANKFORD. And most times just not the kids it's it's the players inappropriate. But the culture you're non-negotiables Your Corporation your program or a little different who is the WHO's had the greatest influence on you man I mean I I know you play coach. Who? But you work with some. Coaches. Coach that that's why that's why I have such a respect for this profession is because I know the impact that has had in my life. I'm talking back to High School Kenny Prologue back in Riverside Church early knowledge and. Bob Lucky Bisa blocking high school, and then I recruit about coach fogler play for him for a year I'll play for coach for three years. coast. George Raveling has been a tremendous influence and mentor in my life since I was about twelve years old. And so it's really been coach starts with my dad I was fortunate growing up in Brooklyn New York got a lot of friends who grew up without a dad I wasn't one of them. Both of my parents and home, and that really gave me that you know if we just being honest with the help me because I understood the value of having a male figure. In my life understood the sesame of. Game disciplined and doing what you're told and so the foundation was laid early. But as as it related profession, it's the book the mostly the guys that I played for but then I worked for some really good guys to coach work to my four year water before. Virginia Tech I worked for Bus Peterson at Coastal Carolina. I worked on at South Carolina and I worked for Frank for year when he came in and then worked for Brad for four years. Three Stephen F. Austin in a year here when you hear all mistake so I've been really. Really, fortunate I've been around so many good people and guys who have a great appreciation of the work that it takes to be successful the discipline the the commitment to the kids they'll people talk about frank all the time and how gruff and mean he may seem. He has nicest guy. I've ever met seriously away from the basketball court now he's extremely manning and rightfully. So these kids need discipline but off the court man, he will take the off his back and give to somebody. That's how percent I I was insistent Miami when when Franklin's the assistant coach Miami Hi my brother played for coach what was his first recruited Washington state and there's really no better bent avocado traveling of and he's you know he's an amazing guy. But you know what you just said you played for guys that that demanded our view now. You. You're not gonNA find much more demanding coach. High. School. You're not gonNA find you know I mean I before where does no both it would. You know it is what it is and the same thing with coach Alderman like all the guys who work for. Well, what advice would you give it? What you like our profession right now? just full disclosure. We opened up the show you know Dan really feels that excellent that. We hold other people accountable and so therefore, the perception of our profession is absolutely lowest point. You're we're keeping coaches like you know that you know are right now under major major investigation on, you know on audiotapes doing major violations five, six, seven major. We the people that are GONNA hold guys. That's because that's a sign of love. I've always felt the art I coach my guys hard. I did it because I love the Matt much that I wanted to see them get somewhere that could get themselves. Do you think playing for those types of coaches is helped you have perspective absolutely again, those guys shaped the way I view my job because I know the impact of the hat on me personally I wouldn't be here. At the had not been for the experiences and the challenges that will present it to me by the coaches I play for. The is it relates profession but I think there is a there's a lot of conflict around. There are a lot of guys making a lot of money. There's no question about it right so It's it's hard for people to to stand up and fight. The system. So to speak that helps them afforded the opportunity to learn. And so I it it certainly I saw from a profession when you wake up almost seemingly once a month at least. An article about how convoluted the businesses you're the shooter's both of you guys know. Everybody's not cheating. Bag with the. out there this probably three, hundred, twenty, five of been or not cheating in would not. Just their moral compass ethics wouldn't allow them to do that and and and put in jeopardy their reputation. If family's reputation the integrity of the university they work for but there's there's some bad apples out there. There's no question about it. What do we do about it? I don't know I don't have answers obviously, I'm cry I inherited situation. We both an investigations part of the reason we're having to deal NCWA. Now I was very forthright. I asked requested at every turn that was asked of me we participated fully we kinda got hammered a little bit on the back into that. We. We have to have a real discussion about what we want profession be like twenty five years we get so caught up now and you'll do good for us at the moment goes very much against what we teach our players every day. Don't get caught up in how much you play the freshman right? It's about developing. It's about getting better about walking out here would agree and putting yourself position to give successful husband father. person in your community but we don't hold ourselves those same standards. It's a bit frustrating. Coach, you said better than I sent I, sent it more of a rant. You said it with great deal of intelligence and insight, but let me ask you. It's the easy answer is man. I. Just control what I can control. That's the easiest answer, and if you do that then five. But when you do wake up and you see guys doing all these things and you see there's no accountability you know like today Sean Miller where their border region says, we're not do another. Is it frustrating? Yeah I mean I think it's always frustrating when you feel like. If you're doing your job and playing by the rules and you're maybe coming up short. but you you think you have suspicion or there's some evidence out there that the people you're competing against in some instances. Are Not only subverting the rules but getting away with it and then having the success and then getting rewarded for that success Absolutely it's frustrating is almost the. To a certain extent, right pizzas article this morning and it was an AB in coastal way obviously non Asli. Saying you know we're not even paying attention to it anymore, and what I try to do to be perfectly honest is I've tried to stay above the fray because there are certain recruiting situations that the moment I hear it may be going in this direction them I can't risk that there's too much for me. There's too many people that are not counting on me. To have success no, one's no one's getting rich because I'm a coach but I over to George Raveling and Eddie forward and Bob, lucky in in those guys and I work for to make sure that they don't have someone that's been associated with them to have their name caught up in something that was you know Baloney right off. So I I try to stay above it It's frustrating when you get into recruiting bottle and you feel like you've done all the right things. and. You know it doesn't go your way. You have suspicions that there's a reason why the problem is I. Think you guys both understand this. Some of this stuff is hard to really prove right at some of it is embellished to be perfectly honest. You know they guys who probably claim they. It never get or maybe promise things that they never really get and so that's where the challenge comes at what point can actually prove the transaction happen. And that's that's where because now everybody just lawyers because they got the money to I. Guess Probably Time where you wouldn't lawyer up because you couldn't afford to. I'm with you like literally like back in the day I mean I have enough money to fight something and I didn't want my parents to see their sunshine but hell coach cheating pays man I'm looking at forty two million dollars to some. Pete them was article. The one that you reference cheating pays in college hoops and I. Do think we've got to change that perception because I think that's what you just said earlier about, Hey, man I wake up once a month and Dan I mean the average fan you know if they see at once year they say, well, everybody's cheat and the perception I do think needs to change. That's what I'm hot about I. I WanNa See College basketball be great but man, Oh, man I talked to people it's like damn. By cheat know everybody's not cheating. And then they say, well, nobody's held accountable Ns. Well, it's hard to argue now when you read what you read the last few days, that is a hard argument to say that now people are held kind. Of An article, a an argument to try to make it is, here's the ban that don't you think. Just so many entities involved now like back in the day. When you when you were recruited Right, you know people recruited your family people recruited your high school coach people recruited maybe. Had A relationship with whoever was coaching yet for Riverside Now, there's money managers involved. There's Runners for agents above this, you know this, the shoe companies been so many different entities involved in that circle of influence. and the more people that are involved. If you just get one person nobody is pulling in the wrong direction it, it literally flips the whole. Recruiting, processes I. I called the Hamilton Affect in the room where it happens. If you've got one guy that has a a an agenda that is is against. The rules. and. That guy is the voice that people are listening to it changes the recruitment, right? No question I you know my expresses. Probably, because I wasn't good for anybody to try to get anything for me but my parents, we sat down and we did four home visits you know. If there wasn't an. You have enough respect from pass to come in and explain to them while Y'all. Costa. We send our kid wherever to go play for and. You didn't have a chance. So we sat down and we did home visits. I visited three school South Carolina. You Mass in Boston College I was being recruited by Hofstra Jay right is there at the time. So it's easier for me. I didn't have to take an official visit. Their went to visit Seton Hall and coach Anchors head coach there. So that was it. There really wasn't a whole lot and it was my parents 'cause lucky organized the Times that revisited. Go on any visit he didn't come home for the. He, just kind of want to know what I thought and. I my my recruitment was pretty cutting right I was going to make the decision with the with the advice for my parents and the guidance just through the process from coaches, and that's it wasn't any influence and so because of that it probably was a pretty. comfortable process for the coaches involved well, now you know. You never know is is an uncle out there. There's a cousin let us to train them. There's trainer and yeah there's a lot of entities involved in. It just makes the process more difficult because what gets lost mostly is what the kid wants a Lotta talk. And and I'll be honest I heard stories of this I've never really been involved in. kind of a a pro, a recruitment where there was someone trying to get something. But the ones that I've heard of, it's always been someone outside of the kid kids not benefiting from this most of the time if any, and so it's it's frustrating because at the end of day, go back to the first part of our conversation. What's the mission of this is to try to put the position of success in their lives and that 'til that goes totally counter. To events in that that process. This is good stuff coach. Before we let you go and under then you got your show everything. How like I look at your team and? Your team has the potential to be a now in its third of the but a team that can win games you have enough of a mixture of youth and experience you have enough athleticism. You've developed a little bit now how how how has practice been in a pandemic? With less exposure maybe to your team and less video work or maybe you're you're still able to have that. But how how have your guys adjusted? How where are you right now even though you don't know who you're. GonNa play maybe November twenty fifth. Yeah I. Say this you guys will understand I love my team. It's been three years. So when I took over I was the third coaching three years. You guys know the hardest thing to do. Build. Some continuity and stability your program if you always have turnover like that. So it's been a while just it's been a battle the NCAA. Decision back in June didn't help but our tape stay together for the most part we lost one kid the kid shot blocker your name with Assamese. but we brought everybody back because they believe in what we've been precinct for the last three years. What they are here to do together We don't have a great sense of urgency right now the deep rebounded thing because I've got who's pressing on the corner lot and they just don't have urgency convergency that blocking out matters but other than that I, really like where we are I think I have. As good of a collection of guards as there are anywhere, I'll put my back court of Isaac likely in Kate Cunningham I go play any body with those two guys leading the charge and we gotta post practice emerging capable who came on at the end of his freshman year last year you know the talented is. You, know you got to do this to you pick your your league, the order to finish league and I'm looking at. I'm I'm getting a headache just thinking about we have to play everybody twice because a league is so good. It's so deep. The team you pick night because you can't pick yourself could easily in a second or win the league. And it's very unique in our competence. That way we do play a true round, Robin and so we feel like we have the debt to really be competitive in our league and if we do. We feel like we'll be competitive against anybody in the country because we felt like we play in a conference in America. Great starts let's. Stop backup. This. This was I. I know, I, know the guy who played for. And I know how proud they are view I know all of them I mean I know you're ask coach. Agency ANA great respect for you know it's good to hear. Your commitment to wanting to do things the right way and your appreciation because you got the coach. To change lives and. Get Got to get into coaching today for the money and it's not about the money it's about having impact to do something. For someone else that. Mike what was done for you? I don't want to be a hypocrite. I. Tell my guys every day to get a process. Let the process to the results. I'll make enough money if I do things right away. So I don't worry about that. We're about out. Can I go to sleep at night knowing that I gave my best to the people who hire me to do this job into the kids who committed to play for me and their parents who decided to trust me with those kids. So that's that's literally what I think about ever sold. hateem this is producer Taylor shrink before we move on today I want to remind you that season two of the ESPN investigates podcast is now available. The running man tells the story of an obscure former Olympian an alleged serial sexual Predator and how a fourteen month ESPN investigation brought him out of the shadows more than fifty men were physically abused in mentally manipulated by their quote unquote coach for over forty years until they banded together decades later to find justice subscribe and listen to ESPN. Investigates Wherever. You get your podcasts. All right. Seth Greenberg ready we got. We got four news on this show. Junior got a job Dogo Mike shrugging at Alum Kotla. Society. So tweet today saw picture up. He's off the payroll. Own Insurance. It can you get the boy car and maybe I don't know if all get enough that that's not. A car I thought I thought he had crashed you got a new car I mean it's being your son. had been bad I ain't gonNA lie. They're big boy. Last thing before I let you go before we end this podcast you mentioned this early and if you could go quick on this. A. Lot of people asking me ESPN shutdown, the events that we're going to be in Orlando. What do you see next for them seth those events. I think they'll be events that will be off shoot from those events instead of eighteen events before keep events I think some of those events will go to other sites. So like say, maybe Gonzaga and Auburn could go to Fort Myers played at two other teams and play two games I mean because I. was, going to be in Orlando for fourteen days I mean they were basically going to play good portion scheduled. Now, the reason I got shot bounds Disney has protocol. Some of those schools had a different protocol, Their Leagues Different Protocol. So you know everyone had to get tested and if you tested positive, even though are you had any remnants of the virus and you'd have to be quarantined for fourteen days are few told me yesterday I'm GonNa fly. Cross Country Charter spent one hundred twenty thousand dollars I get one of my guys as positive work totally fraternity we can't afford to do that. So I think they're going to be tournaments that are off shoot from that I. Think the things that are going on in the heat and sun, which we're going to be televising will happen. I. Think a lot of the key matchups will exist but bill exist in different environments. And Different four-match. There you go. You asset. NBA told thanks for listening everybody. Great stuff today. Might what what are the press is he isn't impressed. You know him in high school. I didn't I didn't try to I try to recruit him his high school coaches far five star Guy After. Joe. He played for coach and coach Fogler Man I'm those two guys are as good as. Here's a guy. He's doing it the right way or not like lucky he's trying to teach his guys accountability and I think is messaging about. Look. You know like here's some guys are GonNa very guys are GonNa be protest K. Cunningham's going to be pro. He is responsible get his guys that are not going to be pros to enjoy the process enjoy the college experience to get him ready for the rest of their lives. If we all you know and I think most coaches take that approach. Unfortunately, the messaging in America across twitter and social media is that coaches don't care about that. I think coaches nearly care about the well being there guys making sure that they're getting a degree and being employed or have success after basketball. So I thought he was great stuff. Man I gotta run. Go make magic. Thank you for listening to courtside with Greenberg, and dockage. You can listen and subscribe to all ESPN podcast in the listen tab of the ESPN APP including the latest from the NBA in the WHO collective podcast available in the ESPN APP or apple podcast. This place look haunted. No I don't think. So what about those two creepy girls come stay with US Truly. Frightening. Fairly. Seri missing. Anna. Guy Goes Great Service with Geico you get twenty four, seven access to licensed agents. Thank you creepy girls to see her room. We're GONNA sleep in the car now the. Switch today for twenty, four, seven access to licensed agents.

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The Life of Legendary Georgetown Coach John Thompson Jr.

ESPN Daily

33:27 min | 5 months ago

The Life of Legendary Georgetown Coach John Thompson Jr.

"So jesse. I want at very quickly here. Just talk about the blurbs on the back of this book that you did with john thompson because it might be the most impressive collection of blurbs i've ever seen we have michael jordan president bill. Clinton patrick ewing phil knight from nike coach k. Allen iverson. what does that list of people say about the life of john thompson man. It doesn't say enough because he's got more like we only had so much real estate on the book. Jesse washington is a senior writer for the undefeated and the co author of the late. John thomson's autobiography. I came as shadow which he wrote in tandem with the legendary georgetown coach. What it says is that this is a man who grew up in segregation. The son of a mother who was not able to use her college teaching degree and had to scrub floors and cleaned toilets. White folks homes the son of a man who was not permitted to go to school as a child and had to go work in the fields and as a result could not read or write and grew up to affect hundreds of lives directly through his coaching thousands of lives to his example and met every president after gerald ford and was so humble about it. I mean we were working on the book one day. And he was looking for some sort of In providence yearbook for mention of something and a piece of paper flew out and fell on the ground. And i picked it up and it was a letter of appreciation from president george bush as an afterthought thought and i was like Coach he was like. Oh yeah put it over there. And then he forgot about thanks. John thompson was not just the patriarch of georgetown basketball. He wasn't educator and activist a towering figure who was as provocative as he was guarded and misunderstood today. As part of espn's black history always jesse washington co author. A belay. thompson's autobiography shares. The inside story one of the most rebellious and revered coaches. That america has ever seen. I'm pablo torre. Tuesday february sixteenth. This is espn daily. Jesse thanks so much for joining me. Man pablo really good to be here so you wrote with the late. Great john thompson. His autobiography i came as a shadow and thomson is the legendary georgetown basketball coach but he wanted people. It would seem to know something more a lot more about his life. What do you think that was. I think he wanted people to know his real views. He kept them to himself for so many years as outspoken has he was. He kept a lot of things personal just out of a sense of self preservation. These years i think he wanted to tell people. Hey this is why. I did the things i did. This is how i felt about those things. And don't let these other people define me. I'm going to define myself. He was famously deeply deeply private. And i want to dive into you pulling back the curtain on his life in that way in a second here but just for those who may be aren't so familiar with the towering literally and figuratively towering figure. That was coach. John thompson and his accomplishments. How do you begin to describe who. He was in college basketball. What significance was to america. An american sports. Oh man how much time you got an this podcast couple hours. John thompson came along and hit the public consciousness like a meteorite in the early eighties about yours. Cinderella team there under coach. John thompson got sick. Ten three hundred pounds. He was the coach at georgetown. Starting in nineteen seventy two. And when he arrived there was one of only maybe four or five black coaches at a predominantly white institution. It was just unheard of to have a black man in charge of your basketball team. And then he started winning and recruiting some of the best players in the country and then he got patrick ewing amazing and he played a very aggressive in your face. Unrelenting style of basketball well-deserved standing ovation but mvp all smiles with us. Code is teams. Were among the best in the country. They started a new league the big east in the early eighties which just took over college basketball and his team was predominantly. Black and johnson himself was very black. Literally figuratively you euphemistically. He was the biggest black est. Six foot ten to be exact black man that a lot of america had really had to deal with our feel that these kids parents are responsible for what they are. Not john thompson. And i'm not some kind of father running around guiding them out of trouble or out of the ghettos of washington dc. That's nothing but both he did not shy away from speaking his mind. And a lotta people. Were not ready to deal with that. They were not ready to deal with this black man. they didn't like it. They didn't think he belonged. They didn't think players belong despite all of that he was the first black coach to win a championship. A label which he said offended him because it implied that the previous black coaches didn't have the ability. I'm not interested in being the first or only black doing anything. Because it implies that in nineteen eighty-four a black man finally became intelligent enough to win. Ncaa title and that's a very misleading thing. He said there were plenty of black. Coach had the ability. I'm the first one who got an opportunity. So that sort of sums up. How john thompson came in america. Then coach for another twenty seven years part of the legend of john thompson. As anyone who's covered college basketball knows. I remember seeing john thompson. Sort of roaming. Nc aa tournament games appearing in the background of press conferences for georgetown games when his son john thompson the third was coaching there. But other people who covered george town more closely. I mean the word. Let's be honest here. They use jesse is terrifying. They found this man terrifying and it is a hard thing. It is insanely unfathomably. Hard for those reporters to imagine getting close enough to john thomson to gain his trust to actually write a book like this with him. So tell me about what it took on your end in terms of getting to know this man in getting that trust. How did you develop that relationship because he wanted to. I'm not going to give myself any great deal of credit. You know for cracking the code of john thompson. No sir because he my reached out for an afterlife and and tell me a few things you know. Coach thompson decided to to tell his story and he sort of had to figure out how he wanted to do it and he didn't have a particular idea of how it would work. And so what i had to do was show up and be prepared with avenues of exploration. You know he didn't want to talk about. Oh this is the strategy. I used to be houston and akeem olajuwon in the championship game or this is the zone trap that i used against per washington and chris mullin. He had no interest in that he wanted to talk about his educational philosophies social justice uplifting black people advocating for women and so really the way i earned. His trust was through diligence through not being lazy and i sort of felt like i was being coached. Yeah when i would put four some extra effort he would recognize that and he would praise that and then he would give me a look. And this is john thompson. He's one of the greatest coaches and inspirational figures and educators and black freedom fighters. We've ever seen so. I responded to that. And he had to figure out to reveal himself he had never done it to a stranger because we had never met before we worked on this book. He didn't even know who i was. He had no idea who i was. Funny story asked him why. He chose nike in the seventies with nike was. Nobody and the big shots were dita's and that was first class and his mentor. Dean smith was adidas and he said yeah you know i like to go with the underdog somebody who knew nobody knew jesse sort of like why chose you gotta love it so i want to walk down a couple of those avenues of exploration that you mentioned jesse i want to start with where john thompson came from the streets. He grew up on because he grew up in. Dc in the forties and fifties so this is pre civil rights movement this is segregation wear thomson came from his upbringing influence. That type of person any type of coach would become in later years. It was really everything if form the foundation. That number left him and he said it frequently in his book look. I told us to forgive. But he never told us to forget and so he never forgot going to the catholic church in southern rural maryland where his father grew up and being forced to sit in the back he never forgot that his high school team one of the greatest high school basketball teams of all time in washington. Dc which was one of the first integrated teams also. He was not allowed to play in certain tournaments in the summer because they didn't allow black players coach never forgot these formative. Experiences of of being in the nba experiencing racial quotas like it's laughable now to think about the nba with rachel quotas but when he played for red are back celtics in the midst of their dynastic championship run. There was a maximum amount a hidden number of the most black people. You could have on the team at one time. So this is the the background of coach thompson. And then he says it in his book. Hey people say oh. John is hung up on race. Everything's gonna be racial. Look what i lived through. Don't ask me to forget about that. I can forgive. You got plenty of white friends. I love y'all but i'm not going to forget. So continuing down the avenue. Now he goes from high school to providence. College played basketball for. Mary goes to the celtics in boston. He is playing behind bill russell and he wins along with russell and all those famous multiple mba titles. But he's mostly this figure in the background. Jesse he's not playing that much at all by the mid sixties. John thompson is nba. He's pro basketball. What did he do after his nba career ended. He went to fulfill his life's mission. He always wanted to be a teacher. He never intended to be a coach and he said okay. I've been an nba for a couple of years. They had an expansion draft. He's like man. i'm not going to chicago. I don't need basketball. The money's not great. I love working with young people. I love counseling. young folks. i had a great many teachers and youth counselors. When i grew up. Who got me where i am today. So he went back home to dc. Started working in a government program. Counseling troubled children helping them reintegrate back in society working with kids who came out of jail john thompson camping out overnight in the park roasting marshmallows and singing girl scout song. This was the life of john thompson before he was invited out of the blue to coach a high school team. That wasn't very good at saint anthony's catholic high school in washington so thompson. jesse was a guidance counselor. He was the head basketball coach. St anthony's high school for six years. But i wanna understand how he goes from this guy who's working with young people to this elite private university that ends up being at the very forefront of college basketball. That's a great question. Why georgetown black man in nineteen seventy-two well. Let's think about what was going on in america. At that time it was the original civil rights movement. We had just come through getting the vote for black people. In the late sixties there were riots that down cities including washington and the folks at georgetown. They looked out over washington and saw the smoke rising and saw a majority black city and they looked around their campus and saw very few if any black people especially in positions of authority and they had a crisis of conscience and said. We're not doing what we should be doing. We have lost our way and the way they chose to change. It was to hire a basketball coach now. Coach thompson says i'm going to give them credit for knowing that they were wrong but they didn't go trying to hire any black professors did the. Here's another factor the year before john thompson got their. Georgetown went three and twenty three so they wanted to win. They wanted to get black people in the school. And they brought him over there to save their institution from their racial transgressions which were much than they imagined at that time. Coming up john thompson and hoyas become the villains college basketball with no fees or minimum on checking and savings accounts banking with capital. One is like the easiest decision in the history of decisions. Kind of like choosing the listen to another episode of your favorite podcasts. And with our top rated up you can deposit checks and transfer money anytime anywhere making capital one even easier decision. That is banking reimagined. What's in your wallet. Terms apply capital one. Na member fdic so to be clear here. Georgetown jesuit university never had a black head. Coach had very few black players before thompson gets there. This is a guy. Also jesse i mean just give a little bit more clarity to his reputation at the time. This is a guy who's favorite word self-professed in the english language is. What can we say now on the. Espn air is this. Is this a disney company or what we are journalists jesse and we have an obligation to say when coach thompson was working with people coming out of jail as a youth counselor before we started coaching. He said hey man the only way to reach some of these kids is to speak their language. I can't say excuse me young man. Can you please remove yourself from that desk. That's not gonna work. Get off that desk mother. And that's his. Favorite word took root so when georgetown hired him yes he is a loud and profane black man and that was part of the charm and the genius and the double consciousness. And the code switching. That coach thompson was able to employ to great effect. But then he would get up in front of an audience of young people and he would not use his favorite word and he knew how to deploy strategically he was a genius. At relating to people from all walks of life took a while for him to become the face of the university he had to win. I and he knew that off the rip. He knew that. If i don't win and win fast i'll be outta here and the next black coach probably won't get an opportunity like so many people who are the first in anything and in this case it's a particularly acute fraught i to be. How did he carry that weight. Did he ever struggle. Under the burden of everything you described and the difficulty of trying to pull that kinda task off. He did struggle. Any human being would struggle the level of opposition and attacks and disrespects and racism that he experienced was at a jackie robinson level. I mean getting called at games on the road and the administrators from these catholic universities. Sitting there watching their students call the georgetown basketball team. These things throwing bananas on the court calling people apes baboon the constant insistence that his players were dumb and did not deserve to be jewish on and he says in his book and by extension. They didn't think that i belong there. Either a big part of what happens to georgetown is the big east. Conference is created in seventy nine patrick ewing. His star player. Comes in one thousand nine hundred eighty one and in the book thompson claims that after getting patrick ewing. Georgetown became the villains of college basketball. How did that villainous status manifest itself. Thank you for asking that because that was one of the major motivations of coach thompson writing this book to really address how that was and how it made him in his players feel and it's a short answer. How did they become the villains of college basketball. They were a great team. They played aggressively and they were all black and they had a big black coach. Who wouldn't shut up is a john. John walking law school instead the game. This was early. In the era of televised sports primarily. His rivals were little lou. Carnesecca saint john's feisty endearing little white man and rally mass amino and jim boeheim who look like a high school science teacher and it was a contrast people didn't like it and my primary concern is a coach is is to protect and to teach and to do the things that i have to do. A problem sometimes with the media. Is i think that they try to determine the things that i do. They're supposed to describe it not to direct it you know if thompson. Meanwhile he's graduating more players than any other school in the country and his team played very aggressively. Let's not mince any words there. They came after you they got in your face and if you step to them if you push them they push back to. This place is kinda do something. So many of these enjoy says evolved. I don't care how competitive they are or the opponent is. John has the control his team. I wanna be clear also about just how transformative. His georgetown program was and patrick ewing at that time. How huge deal. This was in the united states of america. Jesse how big. Georgetown get during that. Run in the mid eighties. Well for a minute. Let's just look at it at basketball terms. And you know coach really sort of struggled in his book with his depiction as quote unquote saint john and oh he helped so many of these poor disadvantaged black kids. He's like wait a minute. I could coach now too. I beat a lot of good coaches. And it all started with his dominance on the court and the biggest takeover of college basketball in the early eighties. This is a brand new conference in all of a sudden they got three of the four teams in the final four and john thompson took the hoyas to three out of four championship games in a four year span. His own way liked that red. Auerbach's the guy. I know championship for george staff. They said that the best team in the country was georgetown. In the second best team in the country was georgetown's bench coach said that he had to stop practice. Sometimes because as substitutes was whip in the start as butts. I mean that's how deep they were rolling and in a very uncompromising style during the reagan era at a time of deep deep racial polarization when black people still had not secured some of the wispy rights that we have today. That aren't enough another thing. That coach thompson says in this book. Jesse is that the best coaching advice he ever received came from his good friend. Dean smith coach at the university of north carolina. Smith said that seventy percent of coaching is not related to basketball at all. and so i'm wondering how thompson implemented that concept at georgetown. Oh man. I love that part of the book. Pablo and the way he implemented. It was in things like this. He didn't sit at the front of the bench during games. He sat in the middle and he had another coaching mentor. The great pioneering black coach john mcclendon. Who said if you sit in the middle of the bench. There is no end of the bench. So that's the way to draw the players closer to him another way that he implemented it was. He insisted that his players were jackets and ties in public. At all times at their most casual they might wear polo shirt with a collar to come down to a meal in a hotel. He wanted to project an image and send a psychological message number one to his players and number two to everyone else who encountered them. He had different ways of conducting practice. That had nothing to do with basketball. Several players said that he would stop practice. Blow his whistle and they think he was about to diagram play and he would say. Hey what happened in iran. Today they would talk for thirty minutes about current affairs. I mean you know michael jackson. His championship point guard. Said a martin luther king day one year. He gave them a two hour lecture. Comparing and contrasting malcolm x and martin luther king in basketball practice. They're wearing sneakers and sure so many different ways that he intermingled his counseling in his teaching with his coaching. That was the seventy percent for coach thompson. In addition to speaking up against all of the injustices that he saw being perpetrated against black athletes the most public example dressy of thompson speaking out against injustices facing black athletes. That was his protest against the college basketball rule change in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. That year was when the nc double a. Proposition forty two which was rule that required college athletes to have an sat score of at least seven. Hundred any gpa of at least two point zero. So what was john. Thompson's reaction to prop forty two outrage and immediate recognition that it would discriminate against poor students. Most of whom are black. I personally feel that. I have a moral obligation with what i believe in with what i coach for him with what i teach for protest proposition. Forty two we have a segment of our society that is misrepresented regardless of what the intent of proposes like he's up and he also knew that there but for the grace of god go i because coach john thompson one of the most brilliant thinkers one of the most intelligent people to come across the american landscape ever didn't have a seven hundred on his sat and if proposition forty two was around when he was going to college we never would have known who he was so he knew proposition. Forty two was unfair and would prevent many deserving student athletes coming from poor backgrounds from getting into college so he told everybody who is going to boycott a game against boston college in one thousand nine hundred nine televised game against boston college. He waited until the game was about to begin and then he exited the arena constant heading for the exit. John thompson has made his statement. Basketball game is underway. It made a huge statement. Who would ever do something like that and not get fired. Keep their job. And then he boycotted the game after that as well and he knew that. All these other coaches were ready to follow him off the floor and it was ready to snowball and that was putting the pressure on the nc double a. And he stood up for what was right and forced the nc double a. to resend proposition. Forty two Up next jesse reflects on the passing of coach john thompson. We are all doing more at home these days and thanks to the folks at carmax that includes car buying too so shop over fifty thousand carmax certified vehicles at carmax dot com. Check out three hundred sixty degree views schedule. A trade in appraisal apply for financing and buy online or in store with curbside pickup in home delivery in select markets. Check out all the details and get started today at carmax dot com carfax. The way it should be so jon. Thomsen would have all sorts of great players jesse over the remainder of his time at georgetown. Got alonzo mourning to commitment. Tumble alan iverson. But his teams would never win a national title and eventually thompson stepped away from coaching in nineteen ninety nine but all of the success he had and all the success of other black coaches around that time like the late. Great john chaney at temple. Why didn't all of that success lead to an influx of black coaches in college basketball. What did thompson make of that specific issue. While he was alive he saw that there was still a system in place that hindered and sometimes prevented black advancement black opportunity in black achievement at the coaching level. And he didn't put himself alone. That category there was four of them and they call themselves the final four and it didn't have anything to do with the nc double a. tournament. It was john chainey john thompson. George raveling an nolan richardson. And they were the final. Four black coaches with real authority and wait in the sport and that's no disrespect to any of the black coaches coaching now. They're doing their best or winning some games but the way opportunity is given or denied at the nc double a. level right now it's still not fair and the misperceptions of black intelligence is still exist are still keeping guys from opportunities and he really in his book wants to inspire other people to recognize these inequities and to continue to push back against them to continue to kick down the door. Because there's more work that needs to be done. Jesse coach thomson passed away at the age of seventy eight on august thirtieth two thousand and twenty which is shortly after. You both finished writing his autobiography. How did you find out. You know when cove hit coach. And i couldn't meet in person so we spent a lot of time on the phone and coach was always very respectful of my time as a father and as a you know someone who had a job he never imposed upon me in that respect but as we got closer to finishing the book and we were separated by covert and i could tell that he was. I could tell it. Meant a lot to him to get it right because this was in a sense his last will and testament of his life and i said to him one day coach. You've been really nice to me so far but whatever you need you wanna call me late at night. If you wanna talk on the phone for a couple hours. I got you whatever you need. Just let me know. And he said you're going to regret that. And then he kicked it into another gear and we spent hours and hours on the phone talking on almost nightly basis. Going over what we had written making sure it sounded exactly like he wanted to to sound and when we finished he said So i guess it's done now Jesse coach i think is what you wanna say. So when his son. John called me to say that his father had passed away. He also said that i helped his dad through that last period of his life and i just wanted to help him tell the story and get out of the way and to make sure that it came through in his voice and what he intended it to say so the fact that we were able to complete that before he died. I hope and i believe that that meant a lot to coach thompson and immolate to me too. The title of the book. Jesse i came as a shadow that comes from one of john. Thomson's favorite poems by a poet from the harlem renaissance named luis granderson alexander and the poem also is the final words that were chosen to end. The autobiography and the palm is as follows. I came as a shadow. I stand now. Alight the depth of my darkness transfigure. 's your night. How'd those words encapsulate the life of john thompson. well he identified with that shadow. He felt as if the shadow was him and to me when he came on the scene. He scared everybody and he was this big dark looming presence and then what we all realized belatedly after a lot of pain a lot of struggle that he had to go through was that what he really was was alight to show us the way to where we should have been going all the law jesse washington. Thank you for helping us. Shine a light on john thompson. Thank you and coach thomson would definitely want to say that. He appreciates the time that you've given to his life story here. I'm pablo torre. This has been espn daily. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

john thompson basketball georgetown John thompson thompson jesse patrick ewing jesse washington Coach thompson nba america Jesse washington president george bush pablo torre nike espn coach thompson akeem olajuwon
Hour 3: The Legacy of John Thompson

Mornings with Keyshawn, Jorge & LZ

42:38 min | 11 months ago

Hour 3: The Legacy of John Thompson

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His mannerisms sometimes when you do it, what was it shows the golf swing the golf swing was it was it was like a little flip of the wrist. In a small space, I can't. Give. The real swing well, we learn key might be picking up some golf after I mentioned. This week's winner of the tour championship is going to win home a cool fifteen million key. Event is that the biggest? The biggest he's be ten million it got so popular fifteen million it's going to be anything like the BMW was then I'm going to be strapped in all weekend for it. We're GONNA talk about the BMW championship and some of the great shock you making that was there in just a minute but speaking of million I mean like right now who's filling more like a million bucks Luca Danni pitch after. Getting eliminated but having that great playoff run or the Denver Nuggets Jamal, Murray whose playoff run is continuing Jay they force a game seven tomorrow night against the Jazz Murray scores fifty it seems like it was Yoka just team. Now it's Murray's team. But if you're Mike Malone take a listen to this, this is the nuggets head coach and he went there comparing Murray in a way to listen to this. What done. The Last Three Games is unbelievable. I've been blessed to have been around some great players in this Lebron a CPA steph Curry Klay Thompson but I've never seen a Guy Joe, fifty, forty, two, and fifty, and two of those games being elimination games. So talk about a young man during the team on his back, and that will to win to do whatever is necessary to find A. Way To get the win is tremendous and to do it after this, we hadn't played since Tuesday and to do with everything that's taken place in the last three or four days all the emotions, all the raw emotion makes it that much more impressive. So I, I'm running out of things and superlatives for Jemaah Murray I. Just WanNa say I'm proud of okay with that I'm okay with his. Around yeah. Because think about the elimination games everything is heavy Wang on the backs and he's going out there and he's still cooking in you think about those guys and those magical moments they always deliver the they're not. He's not saying championship. He just saying in those moments that this is the type of player that we see last NBA player to have three consecutive forty plus point games in the playoffs. Michael Jordan, wow Michael Jordan. So if that just puts it into perspective for you to what degree Jamal Mauri is playing. And somebody was asking this question before about you know is is set in stone that Jamal Murray is the the Robin to Nicola Yokich, our flip it around in today's league right? You have to have a League guard thing about people one championship Steph, Curry Kawhi Leonard Lebron James. We've talked about this not being a league that is conducive for traditional bigs. I'm not saying that Yokich. Is a traditional because he can pass shaken shoot great hands love the mobility around being on the blocks. But Tomorrow Murray is the one that's going to lead this team averaging forty seven points per game and he's last three playoff games. He is the Batman. He is the Superman on this team and you said traditional big. He's still a big though although he can do some things. On the perimeter allowed to do it. He still a big in this league J. ACN is is guard. It's it's got heavy. That's what it is and you get every now and then you get an d. type Dudek a knockdown threes but I'm sure the Lakers at times would prefer to have him down low because his game down near as wicked as well. Keyshawn Jay. Bilas even. presented. By Progressive Insurance Drivers who save with progressive. Save over seven hundred fifty dollars on average. This is just one point I wanted to make about the nuggets. This is a team that historically has had a really difficult time attracting free agents. It's just not a great destination point but think about for NBA players but think about this Tim Connolly General Manager has drafted Yokich he's drafted Jamal. J Michael Porter Jr. who I think is one of the breakout stars that people aren't talking about because you got to eat him in after the back injury they drafted bowl bowl could turn out to be a great player. He you know this everybody wants to play for every team and everybody wants to play in New York. But if you're an organization like Denver or Portland or. Utah it's just so apropos the Denver in Utah in this game seven, both of those organizations have done an amazing job. Now, can you keep spider? Mitchell we'll see but they WANNA keep Yokich Murray's been great. What do you make of the fact that this is an organization that they've got a draft and develop because the free agency route just isn't there for them? Well, I think. When you win and you winning you show promise you can attract free agent. It's not a small city I mean it has enough attraction to where people would look at it and say, okay. But traditionally when you're not winning nobody wants to come. But the fact that you're in the hunt you're in the playoffs, maybe make it to the semifinals or something along those lines now, people start to say. Okay I got this player there. I, got a jokers Air Murray's there or Mitchell's there may WanNa go to to Utah because of that you have to have something for to attract people you can't just be a city in that people just don't come there just because it's not the type of city. Well, there's only three four cities actually have that power right I mean New, York, La Shock. Maybe Miami. So everybody else has to do it through the draft look at what the Boston Celtics have done through the draft Jalen Brown Jason Tatum more trade or trays they stockpile I mean they actually have a lot of picks that they still stockpile it on. Let me go back to I. Think it was the two thousand. Sixteen draft right where Ben Simmons went number one to Philly Brandon Ingram with number two to the Lakers Jalen Brown what number three to Boston and drag him bender then Chris Dun than buddy hield and then Jamal Murray. Then Jamal Mayor Marty went seventh. Yea To. So think about the eye for talent saying that Oh. Okay. I wonder waiting for that pick and getting him out of Kentucky. I remember watching him in Kentucky he was a good player he had potential but you didn't know he was going to be doing stuff like this. So giving Denver credit where credit is due. So basketball draft is so different football draft because. You can draft for for position need in the NFL right you say well, I need a receiver, you can find one of those guys in basketball. There's only so many guards on the team. It's like we don't want to be guard heavy. So we don't we only carry five guards and then this is what we need. So you pass on you guys passed on a lot in basketball because the team may have three or four wings they don't need another wing. So therefore, they going to pass on that guy who turns out to be. An excellent wing player, and then all of a sudden they grab a point guard and people sit there and go like the Celtics. Variance substance the sixers took full Marquel folks at the beginning at the top of the draft number one did they really need another Gore when they already have been simmons in looking and then they get rid of him. So when I look at the NBA draft, like they seem like they miss a lot of players that turn out to be really good at the top of the draft they're always misses but. Also for the Denver team people at home, don't get a chance to watch him 'cause you're on late usually when they plan the West Coast, they've done it by volume right there. They're really deep when you think about all the guards on his team from Wilbur into Gary. He's been out to Michael, Porter, Jr. Montaigne Morris Jeremy Grant. They have a lot of guys, right so they were like, Hey, we're going to do it by committee instead of doing it by having a superstar. What we're watching right now is they found a gym in a rough in it find a guy that's becoming a superstar on the biggest stage one. Of their biggest problems though is that they're they're going to be in a west for a while ain't going nowhere right? They're GONNA be there. They are Lakers are going to be there to clippers going to be there the warriors are going to be back. We know we have no idea what they're going to do with that number two pick Houston's hanging arou-. Going to figure out what to do. So when you start to look at that, you gotta go. In I'm sure the Pelicans at some point, they're going to turn out to be something with Diane. Young Group that they have down there and the other young superstar in the West we gotta talk about last week. There was a big story about lead se yet Dallas right that's who we're GonNa talk about here right now twenty years ago Leeann L. Messi was growing up in Argentina Barcelona went down to look at him at the age of thirteen, and then when they saw him, they said. WHOA, they signed him to a contract key Jay on a Napkin twenty years ago, and now he's going to break apart after twenty years of Barcelona at the age of thirteen. Messy was alleged at the age of thirteen soldiers Luca Danni, Donnie Nelson, the guy that runs the Dallas Mavericks Nelson Son Came Down Great International Scout. They saw him and if scouting him just since he became a teenager just for purposes of context Lucas now twenty one years old and has been playing against men in Europe and now mend in the NBA. Rick Carlisle. Says despite a great year for Luca everything that he has done next year will be even better. He's one of the toughest players. That I've ever seen in this league and that goes back thirty, five, thirty, six years. He's A great young player that is getting better each year. He's rookie of the year last year and this year he's up for most improved I I like to know if that's ever happened. Before and. So I expect that. You know he'll come back next year. even better you know with some with some something new in his game, the same way that bird and magic and Jordan and all those great players. did every summer. It's a great question. We'll have to get the research department on will try to come up with an answer switching gears, Kishan Jabil Zubin brought to you by straight talk wireless no contract no compromise switching gears with regards to basketball but going from pro game to the college game. We are sad to report Jon Thomsen Junior. A Titan of college basketball has passed away at the age of seventy eight. He won five, hundred, ninety, six games, J. Coach Georgetown, who you have an affinity for we'll talk about that in just one moment from nineteen, seventy, two to nineteen, ninety, nine, and perhaps the most important thing he did he became the first African American head coach to win the men's basketball championship doing it in one thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four, he had Patrick Ewing as his best player. Ewing is now Georgetown's coach. He was eventually succeeded by Craig Shrek and then John Thompson to third John Thomsen. Junior son took over a giant has been lost John Thompson was seventy eight years old a barrier breaker for all African Americans Five, hundred, ninety, six wins. He would have turned seventy nine next month and Jay everybody forever and a day will associate you with Duke University, but there is a tiny Georgetown you were telling us this morning that I would love if you shared with the viewers and the listeners. Turn on my call for a second because I take a really deep breath just feels like it's one punch after another it really does. you know. My my dad is one of ten and I know he's listening right now we got a chance to spend some time together this weekend. It's been a long time to spend time with his granddaughter might my Child Melia? And you know my dad's comes from Fort Lauderdale and It's always been about how do you do more to empower the community and one of the examples that he's always spoken to me about since I've been a little boy. Growing new. Jersey biggies, basketball seeing biggies basketball was John Thompson. And if you would ask me when I was thirteen fourteen years old I was gonNA play. For Georgetown there was there was no question about it. into actually get recruited by Georgetown and have conversations with John Thompson and one of the things that you and I always talk about the car salesman strategy that sometimes coaches end up doing when he tried to procure you an athlete on their forget my dad I wonder phone with John Thompson and he said to my dad's name is David, which is my middle name. He's a David. I'm, not going to. Be. Georgetown. After this year. Craig s sure will be the next head coach by want you to know that. I kind of altered the path for me, but it was ultimately the candor of John, Thompson which at that moment I remember looking at my dad and saying I get it. I got respect for what he did for Kids Allen Iverson Alonzo. Mourning. Patrick Ewing. He fought for kids who didn't have the same opportunity to get them into established universities like Georgetown he it so much racism I mean some of the stories you hear about Zoe, Patrick having bananas thrown at them before and games being called all these different crazy names and prop forty eight and proposition forty two and boycotting game I. Think it was Pittsburgh back in the day. He stood for what was right in every coach spoke to coach K. Bill Self John. Calipari. They all just raved about. JT. It just it feels like it's one punch after another, you know having obviously been a football player in in out West but growing up. Georgetown was. In basketball wasn't ucla right that was our West Coast School for the for championship. But it was about Georgetown in when people talk about pop culture it was almost like pop culture was way back then with the Georgetown Hoyas I mean it was just. I could just remember I don't I remember the championship with they had Michael Graham remember the boy do Michael Grandma had they obviously Patrick? Williams was there. It was crazy reggie. Williams was day was crazy. I knowing that man, it was like Hoyer. So when I finally had the opportunity to meet coach Thompson. His just a whole voice is deep voice was was shattering, but it was serious. It was like I have to listen to what this man is saying and you know in just being around in understanding like Jay said, what if what he did not only for black coaches but the big east conference as a whole I mean he was one of the first coaches to have a basketball shoe under contract I. mean that was like now commonplace normal but his deal now it's normal his deal in the Big East conference I just remembered that conference as a West Coast guy where you had the syracuse is. Villanova Temple. Saint George and Saint Jaws Dole's coaches as a whole was just something crazy man and it will come on CBS and I will sit there and watch it and look at him and just like man he's Larger than life coach in to learn as time when on. What he stood for was even more special just said such deep credibility. There's this great story about a Guy Name Raeffel Edmund who was a new Torius DC drug dealer kingpin in DC and Era I. Think it was a story about Alonzo mourning was that some establishment back in the day I guess have been known for drug trafficking and was stairs hanging hanging around right and how John Thompson Literally Hunted Raeffel Edmund Down. and. Nobody knows what was said but essentially, it was like you know threatened him by if you continue because rifle come to all the Georgetown. Games I remember the story back in a day come to all the Georgetown Games I mean guys I would pass away and his gang who were buried them at Georgetown uniform things of that sort and jt was pretty said look I do not. Want you around my players. So it wasn't just the credibility for things like prop forty eight and for to, but he actually put his mouth to wear to knee was industries with these kids kids. It wasn't just you know, hey, me saying things to the public. It was him actually doing things behind closed doors and putting his life in jeopardy for the same kids he wanted to protect. Alan Iverson. A I four minute. A I had gotten into some trouble. Was Incarcerated John Thompson worked his butt off to get him out right to come and not only get him educated but also to play bad not just play basketball but also getting educated where a lot of coaches steered away from, it wouldn't even touch it. Huge bowling alley brawl average reputation could not have been worse at that moment John Thompson was there for him John Thompson the legendary Georgetown Basketball Coach has died at the age of seventy eight and he was the Hoyas head coach from nineteen seventy to nineteen, ninety nine he took him to three final fours in the nineteen eighties won the nineteen eighty-four Ncaa Championship the first african-american coach to win the men's basketball championship. His son eventually took over John Thomson, the third, and now his best player easily of all time Patrick Ewing is Georgetown's coach I want to mention this to you because I know this would affect both of you. Greatly, he spoke to Washingtonian magazine and they simply asked him what did it mean for him to become the first African American coach to win it now listen to this comments. This is John Thompson. Seminal achievement. The significance of knocking down the barrier were very important to me unfortunately, sometimes don't have the right to fail when you're an African American at that time. That's a right that should be awarded anybody who wants to reach a high level goal. But once we won that game, it was like giving the good housekeeping seal of approval to African American coaches of most of the guys were just assistant coaches. They were the guys that. Were there to bring the players into the schools, but they weren't allowed to run these teams to coach these teams they were always the number to you got to go get me players our coach that whole mantra he shattered all the key chatting the whole in he did he opened up a large number of doors and he's absolutely right in even to a degree. You still see both in college basketball and college football where. There's a a small number of college basketball here coaches that are African American as well as football coaches, but there's a ton of assistance that they're not allowing to get into the coordinating positions to be able to move up to hear coaches. That's why again we always about you gotTa have your people in place to be empowered and he was in place to empower those that came behind in the room right in the room. Talk. Say Guys. It's still too. I remember being a kid be saying. Oh I can go to Georgetown gear. I can go I can go to Georgetown. A prestigious academic university and they get it. They get culture goes the first time I've ever seen that. I'm sure there are probably maybe examples before that for me it'll be in thirty nine years old. I've seen like, okay. I can have swaggie. So go to this great university I can do both and play basketball for coach that that gets it and can help kids like I. Never I never thought that it was possible until I saw George H you know obviously, they tried to turn make Georgetown seemed like. It was a bad situation squire ally was thugs and try to create it that way but he wouldn't allow that to happen. He just continued to go out there recruit guys turn turn kids into men, and if you look back at some of his former players, I mean come a- whether it's Patrick Ewing, Zoa or Matombo or a some of the more famous ones but they all reach back to Georgetown you know. Some people go to schools for those three or four years and they never go back and associate themselves with university whatsoever. That's not the case with his guys grade-point key and every time he saw big John. Talk, he told you directly how was he? There was no sugar coating around it and he was saying to your face and you I if forced, you have a moment with yourself every time with voice key. I don't know if you guys have ever had a person around you says things directly to where it cuts through all the BS and you're forced to acknowledge it keyshawn. He's yes. Well I it forces you to address the issue with yourself. I think that's very important like you can't lollygag around and say, well, this had happened or that happened like with all these different excuses you're forced to address the issue with yourself and that's how big John Cut. Through. One of my conversations with him when I was young here in. New York playing football and we were. We were a semi van or something and. He would just having a conversation in one of the things that you say to me is don't allow he was talking about the media. New York to try and get me to be something that I wasn't stick to my guns be who I am don't just fall because they want you to in so that that is always you know Kinda stuck in your head when you have compensation deep conversations like that with people like John Thompson, it's like, okay, I get it whether it's like, George Raveling whether it's Cheney like all these old heads that was like great college. Basketball. Coaches that you have the opportunity to meet in in clash with and have conversations with you always want to try and take something away from that. It's a great point George Raveling USC, and in Iowa and obviously John Chaney at temple legendary career for a couple of other. African American coaches and all those guys paved the way for the next generation Keyshawn J. Zubin presented by progressive insurance with all of our guest appearing on the Shell Pennzoil performance line. We've got some breaking news from the NFL that we're going to get to next the. Jacksonville. Jaguars have released. Leonard for Nets what does it mean? Where could he be heading next much more on this breaking NFL news next it's ESPN radio on Sirius Xm channel eighty jeon. Jae Willin Subic the podcast. Ever wonder just how far an extra mile really goes drive a Mercedes Benz van and find out start with a network of over two hundred fifty authorized dealerships backed by a salesforce ready to help you with everything from customization to service on vans like the Mercedes Benz sprinter that's tailored to your lifestyle with options like blind spot assist, and NBA Voice Command for spoken directions weather and more the route is being calculated so whether you're enjoying life on the trail working hard on the job see how far an extra mile can really go by taking the. 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This is banking reimagined get started online anytime. What's in your Wallet Capitol NA member FDIC? Key for net and the JAGS. This seemed like this divorce was coming for quite some time. It's just a matter of when it was going to come apparently the answer is it this morning? It seems like to me to Jacksonville Jaguars. Trying to hit the reset button as a whole in the organization you know the lot would think that they're tanking for Trevor Lawrence or whatever the case may be but Linda for net hasn't really lived up to the billing in which they thought he would and it's not all his fault. Some is due to injury. Some is due to system and scheme whatever team he goes to next I'm sure he could be the dynamic runner that we saw in the past both in the NFL and Lsu. Because, I think he's a good football player you gotTa know how to use them in what he is in in. Jacksonville, can't get out of their own way whether it's whether it's Jahic whether it's Jalen Ramsey now for net I mean it just goes on and on and on they signed Nick foles so huge deal a year later part ways with him because Minhsiu decided to have a few good games I mean it's just Jacksonville just as we can you say the Jaguars that's all you can say we did a Boerum conversation with Jalen Ramsey and he got pretty intimate about he wanted to get the hell out of Jacksonville and I'm trying to he was. Like I was trying to get out of there. So we look for Leonard Fournette. Yeah. Sometimes you know blessings come in all different disguises you know what I mean. So I I think it's opportunity for him. Obviously leaving his team you look at the production over the last couple years three years thirty, six regular season games played score fewer than twenty td's like key alluded to allow that's due to coaching and scheme as well. You Go back to the AFC championship game in New England that that team is completely different. Now there's so many of those guys are gone and you. Would think that that was the young core nucleus of that team where you would say, okay, they're gonNA build. They're gonNA be around for a while Tom Coughlin's out I. Mean it just it? Yeah. They're. They're going to be one of those teams that may win three or four games this year, and that's pretty much unbelievable point by key because it's worth bringing up to the Jacksonville Jaguars were in Foxborough in the AFC title game with a double digit lead in the fourth quarter with a chance to go to the Super Bowl Gus Gary and they've never been canceled so tight. Care they got they got scared. They wouldn't let Blake, Bortles do anything. They wouldn't run the ball just got tight for whatever reason, and then they wind up what was it three years ago three years three years ago and then look at the organization question if you're Leonard Fournette if opportunity go to a team that you wanted to where would you go? A hold that thought after we speak to Jay Bilas because we'll revisit this conversation again question it's big NFL, breaking news and Jay Bilas here because there's big college basketball breaking news this morning the death of John Thompson Junior age of seventy eight, one, thousand, nine, hundred, four NCAA championship winner the first African. American. Coach to take team to the men's College Basketball Championship his best player is now Georgetown's coach his son John. Thompson the third eventually followed him as head coach as well with Craig there in the middle giant for what he did for Eric African Americans in a giant with what he did in the game. Jay joins us on the Shell Pennzoil performance line this morning Jay good morning for those that may be too young or don't understand the scope of what John Thompson Junior meant to college basketball. How would you sum it up? He was a giant in in basketball both literally and figuratively, and he did so much for the game not only on the x No side that you did a substantial amount there. You know his Georgetown Teams especially when you got nineteen, eighty, seventy, nine, eighty through the early nineties they were a force and the best defensive coaches in the history of the game, his teams were very disciplined. Very smart and very together and that that's why they were so great defensively, it wasn't just that they were athletic. they were smart and disciplined. And almost went to the final four in nineteen eighty when John lost a a one point game to Iowa and that was lute Olson's first final four and lute Olson passed away a little earlier last week But John, Thompson. was that he was also fought for social justice before it was it was cool if you will. Think. You'll remember back in the eighties there was legislation by the NC double called proposition forty two. That put in a entrance requirements and they were disproportionately affecting African Americans and John Thompson and a game I. Believe it was Boston College got up before the tip and walked off the floor and protest with a towel over his shoulder and and you know he took a stand and took a stand on on multiple issues He was not always popular because the things that he was saying that time was really uncomfortable for for people to hear. And you can imagine I mean are people are uncomfortable. Now think how it was back in the in the late Seventies. Early Eighties one John Thompson was was setting a standard and with standing up on social issues. He he was a, he was a a great great person a man of of really high character and You know you don't want it to get lost what a great coach was but he was also a great man. Jabe, we're watching some footage of right now with the white towel over the right shoulder I mean, that's how I remember jt walking around as he inspired so many kids. Amir the first time actually seeing Georgetown basketball me thinking like, Oh, a kate like me can go to a university like that and play in the culture like that. You know how important was it just a culture he built around the familiar aspect of the family he established at Georgetown players. Well. He certainly jaded sugarcoat anything with his players to eat taught them that the world's not just black and white it's green and I remember hearing a story. He used a deflated basketball in his office and we'll talk about you know when the air goes out to the ball what are you going to have left like what are you? GonNa do. And he would show his shoe contractors players and say, we're wearing this brand of shoes because they're paying me. And said, this is the way the system works and would you know alert his players to you know this is the way it is, and you have to learn how the system works if you want to change it. and you know back then you know that was my era when when Georgetown was dominant I came out of high school in Nineteen Eighty two win the year that Georgetown Law by a bucket to to north. Carolina and Michael. Jordan James Worthy. And that's when the Hoya Paranoia thing started and you know Thompson would keep his team separate and and wouldn't put him in an NC double A. Mandated hotel. They'd say out of town and you know they do they do their media obligations but nothing more you know wasn't the he wasn't looking to gain favor with the media and and he would John Thompson. If you can believe this was even accused back then. Of of being racist because they because Georgetown did not have a lot of white players and you know just absurdities like that. He had to deal deal with and he called them out and because he was he was big. Deep Voice and intimidating could be seen as intimidating He criticized a lot but without John Thompson, not only with Georgetown not be the the the name it his today in so many different ways. But I'm not sure the big East we would have been what it was without him. He was an extraordinary extraordinary figure and an extraordinary coach when you look at a J. Not. Just his basketball accomplishments but him as if you know larger than life father figure to many of the Great Georgetown hoyas players. But also making sure from an academic standpoint, the guys graduated and I think that that gets lost in these situations with a guy like him has who's been a trailblazer for so many African. American coaches bolt in football and in basketball and kicking up doors. What do you think the next steps for Georgetown? Basketball in the future is going to be. Well, you know they've got Patrick Ewing coaching there now and Patrick is an outstanding coach Another guy who's WHO's really smart and and you can't even argue with his fastball credentials his they're fantastic. So I think thousand really good hands I. I think it's just sort of the idea of going back to the future that oftentimes people look backward and say, well, you know Kinda like USC, football, frankly. Mike people my age would always talk about John McCain. When are we going to get back to that? You know that kind of thing when when jt three took over John Thompson son. So when Johnson retired his assistant Craig, s? Rick Job and they didn't they didn't do as well they went to and it's all AB workout and so John Stops third was hired and he jt three compared to his father success all the time and he won big east championships and went to a final four. So it's it's difficult to measure up to and that sort of the the challenge I think is, can you get? To a place where Georgetown fans believe they should be Ucla battled it for all these years and and you know data USC football you name but Alabama there was a long period time. We're Alabama was not the Alabama today where they were stuck in between bear Bryant Nick Sabin and you know dealing with fan speculations are difficult Georgetown's certainly had a difficult time since John Thompson Retired J.. B. You and I Work House Game Day for a long time I've always called you is are of sports on the collegiate level What are your thoughts on everything that's been happening football basketball and a whole I think it's been great I? It's did it's been called a reckoning which I think is fair I think a lot of not only a lot of college sports but a lot of America. If not, all of it needs to needs to look with open eyes and open minds open hearts not just as the way we wish things would be, but the way things are, and you know just going back to the John Thompson to make that point when when John Thompson and other coaches fought against proposition forty, two in the eighties One thing that was lost on people was that was probably fifteen years maybe maybe a little less maybe twenty years twenty years after College basketball was became integrated like in the nineteen sixties during my lifetime the ACC did not have any black players none it was completely segregated and closed off. And oddly enough the NC Double A. had no academic requirements for incoming athletes before college basketball was integrated none and he started coming in after and I don't think it takes a genius to figure out why? it was because there was a there was a feeling that the black athlete had to be limited. And people can deny that all they want. But that's where those restrictions came from and John Thompson knew it and he fought against it and got other coaches to to do the same and they were able to change that legislation but I think you can look to a lot of these restrictions and say, Hey, you know doesn't take a genius to figure out. You know if you look at a time line when these things came in why they came in. Well said Naismith Memorial Hall of Famer inducted in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, nine. So his spirit will live on in Springfield J. really appreciate the perspective this morning. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Jay Bilas on the Shell Pennzoil performance line brought to you by shelby power nitro plus premium gasoline real quick real quick. Marin. MEDCALF covers college basketball for ESPN. tweeting just a few minutes ago to talk about how John Thomsen even the last stages of his life was there to fight the battle. This is from irons twitter feed. I was told that Big John? which is affectionately known by just two weeks ago jumped onto a phone call with black college basketball coaches and told them to seize the moment. The legendary coach was still fighting for change at the end when it's in you, it's in you when it's in your DNA, it's woven throughout John. Thompson has died at the age of seventy eight. Will in Sylvan the podcast? Did you know GEICO's now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies? That's fifteen percent on top of what Gyco could already save you. So what are you waiting for your baby to let you sleep in? Sleep, in another half hour. Thanks Sweetheart. And you'll change yourself to. Never, been a better time to switch to geico save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh limitations apply visit Geico, dot com for details. Did you know GEICO's now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies? That's fifteen percent on top of what Geico could already save you. So what are you waiting for your teenager to help around the house? Okay mom I empty the dishwasher vacuum the basement, and folded the sheets out of the dryer. Oh and next I'm GonNa Cleans litterbox win some kind of prank show or something. That's a camera isn't it? There's never been a better time to switch to geico save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh limitations apply visit Geico Dot. com. For details. If he thought we were going to ease into a Monday morning. As Jay's been sort of echoing throughout the program man, you never know twenty twenty is going to throw out you. We got a couple of breaking news stories to discuss. One one is much more of a sober and serious note in that as the passing of Georgetown Legend John Thomson Junior at the age of seventy eight leading the hoyas to the nineteen eighty-four title the first African American man to win the men's basketball championship all he did for race relations when it was probably The most uncomfortable time to do it. We're easily talking about it. Now, people are being more open, but as Jay Bilas joined us just a few minutes ago to have the stances that he did when he did really says, something our thoughts and prayers to his family. He died at the age of seventy eight. He was old enough and he was able to see his son JT threes. They call the affectionately John Thompson, the third eventually coach the Hoyas just like his old man and Patrick Ewing his best all time player is now the hoyas. Head coach once again, our best to him another big breaking news story. This morning key is the Jacksonville. Jaguars have released. Leonard Fournette they will play the Indianapolis Colts in week one of the season and they will not have arguably their best player on offense there. So the question is two weeks to go. Plenty of teams have the opportunity to pick them up. He's been productive. He's been injured. He's clashed a little bit with their management. He's open he's available who should be pouncing. You know. Who should be and I would say a team that stands out to me would be the rams. The Rams. Even. They drafted a guy say New England. You Know New England's always looking for low hanging fruit and CAM can be different to get It'd be something backfield. Yes. Good. You know you always. Have a few other teams that are out there. You look it Seattle's hats some running back problems and issues to stay healthy they had to go get marshawn Lynch last year. So that's their style play defense run the ball keep keep it easy for Russell Wilson. He'll he'll have suitors. There's no question about it. Just a matter of whether or not he wants to play in certain towns and cities. Asked. What were some of the injuries that he had drawn a blank on that for a second had some lower leg injury injury really hurt and he's had some injuries. He also obviously is clash with Tom Coughlin whose the previous administration. But he's a guy that's got wondrous talent and you might remember during the college football season, you have to think back to his last year at Lsu he was at the time and you know the halfway heisman key he at the time was the runaway favourite for the Heisman who who's actually one another SEC Derrick Henry of Alabama, was obviously going under do a couple of good things in the NFL too. But this guy was pegged for stardom from day one great personal story new, Orleans recovering from Katrina playing for the big state school playing as well as he did. And we're watching some you on ESPN news is impressing key. But it's it's it's odd to have a guy available of this ilk this close to the start of the season training camps are essentially open world. You'd think about you think about the Jaguars Organization as a whole they haven't been the same since that second half of the New England. Patriots AFC championship game several years ago fourth pick in the two thousand, seventeen draft you can't get to a second contract with him so that all that does your organization's set you back. So forth, pick. Fourth pig not the two, hundred, ninety, four, th pick the fourth pick of the draft he didn't even get to his third year. Crc. So seventeen eighteen nineteen is fourth year twenty he couldn't get to his fourth year with the organization before they decided to cut bait you said before low hanging fruit this. Type of player that Bill Bill Chick. Hounds upon actually fit in system play with our will be shocked at all I wouldn't be shocked at all and and Obviously Bell Check Hassle Relationships with with the coaching staff as well as Tom Week to pick up the phone and find out exactly what that is too big breaking news stories the passing of. The releasing Leonard Fournette we'll talk about it next. Visa. Will. Vodka.

basketball Georgetown John Thompson football Jay Bilas Patrick Ewing John Thompson Keyshawn Jay NBA NFL Georgetown Hoyas Shell Pennzoil Jacksonville Jaguars Johnson Jay Williams Jacksonville Yokich Murray Espn J Michael Porter Jr. Benz mercedes-benz
Dan Patrick Show - Hour 2 - Tom Izzo (03-06-19)

The Dan Patrick Show

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Dan Patrick Show - Hour 2 - Tom Izzo (03-06-19)

"It's all about me. Dan, Patrick gas. There is more where that came from click back for new episodes all week, log, let's consider the secret life of the innermost nesting doll living, most of her life in the dock inside the other nesting Dole's. He has plenty of time to think if we could sadly, she has no brain, however, when an INA most nesting doll. Here's the Geico not only saves people money, but also has been providing great service for over seventy five years. She thinks it's obvious. You should switch because. Yes. Switching to Geico is a no brainer pity the innermost nesting Dollond her lot in life. Broadcasting from the Mercedes men, I really love this game and think he would be with the Lakers pace as Dan Patrick, welcome to the program already in progress. It's our two on this Wednesday. If you missed our interview with Lincoln Riley, the Oklahoma head coach who had a different opinion than Charley Casserly of the NFL network Casserly taking Cuyler Murray task through sources people said at the NFL combine he didn't interview. Well, didn't do well and drawing up plays on the whiteboard. And had basically one of the worst interviews that he's heard of any first-round quarterback. And he's been around the league longtime, but Lincoln Riley had some comments. If you missed an interview go to the Dan Patrick show app. We will bring back some of those comments here in a little bit Tom Izzo Michigan state head coach. He will join us in a little bit Doc Rivers, the clippers head coach a little bit later on as well say good morning to our three hundred sixty radio cities around America. Also, Sirius satellite radio channel to eleven and our TV affiliate. That's direct TV audience. Don't we're channel two thirty nine Celtics handed the warriors their worst home loss of the Steve Kerr air last night. One twenty eight ninety five can a team lose a game by thirty three points at home and still go on to win the NBA title. It's happened three times previously. You have the Celtics couple of times cabs. The warriors. Celtics again. But you and you start to look at these teams. I Golden State strikes me as we hate the regular Susan. I kind of we don't want to go through this. This game was great for the league, by the way. Because now all of a sudden, you go and the Celtics. All right, if they get it together, you know, they're not a finished product. Hey, you know, what maybe that's what they could be when they get to the playoffs here. Now, I'm not buying into that. This is what I would be curious about if I'm Steve Kerr in that loss happened last night. Let's say it's one in done in the NBA playoffs. So if you have one bad night you're out because that's what can happen to do. I don't think you can beat Duke for times in seven games if we reverse this. And now all of a sudden Golden State you're going to play a couple of tournament games, and you could be one in done with a bad night. Then it's really interesting. I still don't think. Golden State is going to lose four games in a series. They were the best offense last year statistically in the history of the NBA for one sees. And then you add boogie cousins, and the reaction was the rich richer. Well, here's the problem. You couldn't get any better offense eternally, but you could get a whole lot worse defensively. And that's the difference. Boogie cousins is not a good defender. You couple that with Steph curry, and now you have a little bit more of an issue. I think once you get to the postseason. I think boogie cousins minutes are going to be limited. I really do. And you usually shortened your bench when it comes to the playoffs. That's going to be a tough decision. Boogie cousins wants to play for a new contract and new team. And I'm sure the Lakers are gonna look at boogie cousins believe it or not in the off season. If they don't get any of these big time free agents, you know, maybe you're looking at boogie cousins, maybe Bradley Beal, you try to you know, trade for I don't think you're going to get these market guys. But I do think boogie cousins is not a great defender and get him in this pick and roll and they took advantage. But Boston played great last night and Gordon Hayward. So big win last night spring in the head coach of Michigan state. All he does is get to the tournament. I believe twenty one consecutive years in the NCAA tournament is that right coach Izzo. Yeah. I think it is twenty one dome. Don't act like you don't know. Come on. Okay. I'm going to start with you here. You were a division two. All American, right? Yeah. Really small college. Okay. But you played northern Michigan. Right. Right. Okay. Who plays the game in the NBA the way you played in college. The manager now. No warriors. And he's probably, you know, division one all American. But where you know. I was a pastor, man. I was pleaser. I kept other guys in touch. You know, I did the same thing in high school. I tried to feed mariuchi the ball. But he missed a lot of shots. So I didn't get any assistance high school so college he was playing football. And so have to worry about all those Mishaan he'd have. But you were division two. All american. Yeah. You know, they had those out if you no good stats, and you know, I, you know, I started my first start if you can believe this is my sophomore year against Michigan state at home. Gus connec gets Gregory kill sir came up to northern Michigan. You think that wasn't a an? The UP that was something big how how much you lose by twenty five. Okay. That's not bad. It wasn't too bad. You know, if I had a shooting contest between you coach K and Jim boeheim. I think I'd win it. I really do. I think I win it just because my usefulness. How? Coach K has a back problem. But he was a great score in highschool at the, you know, city of Chicago and score. I know what Mike getting old, and he's and he's and you know, he's got that back problem. So I don't think he Titian as as an as good. So you're not getting old. No, I'm I'm actually staying the same division who you gotta stay the same. You know, that doesn't change did you. It's just Eski were division. One guys. Did you recruit Zion? Williamson. No, sometimes, you know, you you look at certain players and. Excuse me. You know, you're probably not going to get them. So that was one of them. You know, I think Zion was destined for Duke or Kentucky who else did you say like, did you recruit Kobe did you recruit, Kevin Garnett? Lebron, you know, we didn't recruit Kevin Garnett and LeBron a little bit. We'd won the national championship when LeBron was a freshman in his high school coaches from the state of Michigan at that time keep damn broad who's now the coach at Duquesne. And so we were in there a little bit. And then I saw him that summer. And I realized that there is not a chance in the world that he's gonna call. Okay. Well, we begged out of that one. All right, where where are we headed with the one in done rule looks like it's changing. Yeah. I think it's definitely going. I think all these rules are going to change. I I just Dan. I mean, this is strongly as I can I I I know everybody's thinking we're giving the kids the most freedom, and that's best for them. But I don't know about you, Dan. But I I've made a lot of average decisions that eighteen nineteen years old. You know? And I I think a lot of these kids, you know, there's going to be saloon bronze. But there's going to be a lot more that aren't LeBron's. And then what are they gonna be like in a year or two, and they don't make it. So I I worry about it. I think it's going to cause a lot of kids to kinda beg school. And you know, I hear some guys talk. And then it's only going to be six or eight kids. There's gonna be a lot more net that think they're good enough. And there'll be a lot more agents and Bill men telling them they're good enough. And I I don't think it's gonna affect college that much. I don't I think it will. The toll a little bit more. But I think the biggest person it's gonna fact as the kids themselves, but you're not I mean, how many times are you recruiting a one in donor at Michigan state. You know, that's four of them and two of them didn't think they'd be one in done, and they ended up one and done. But I I'm not recruiting many kids that you know, you go into it that way. But I think once that rule comes out there'll be a lot more kids thinking, they're one and done. And yet, you know throughout most years, there's not as many that really can do that. But I think once the kids get set on it. It's gonna change, you know, and it's gonna make it a little more difficult for them. And for us. Issue. I'd take issue with what you're saying is we don't care about kids in other sports who you could have soccer players who could be signing. You know at ten twelve years of age tennis players. Do this baseball players hockey players do this. Golfers. Do this. I it feels like we're looking out for basketball players when it feels like that's more of we don't want to ruin our sport or are tournament. We want to have these stars. You know, I'll take somebody one in done just so I got to see Carmelo for one year. So I don't I don't know it feels like we're overprotective wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind taking a one and done. So we could have a year. But now that won't happen. It'll be none in done. And and as you say that look at the other side as it worked out so bad for football football players. Do you think the NBA players? Do you hear the Commissioner talking about, you know, are these young new millennials having any fun or the enjoying it or they appreciate an? It, you know, could you handle? You know, fifty million dollars. It's eighteen years old. I can't handle it a lot. I mean either. That's exactly what I'm saying. And so I don't think we see the studies on what it does. You know, if you look at Hollywood, you know, those those young stars that come out later on in life hasn't ended up very good for a lot of them. That started really young, you know. Yeah. And I I worry the same thing. So I listen, I I don't care. My Michigan state. It's going to be standing whether we're wanting done Dun done or foreign done, you know, but why not why not look in the other side of it. It's worked out pretty good for football. And, you know, those kids get a little more mature, and and they get a better opportunity, and maybe they can handle things a little better. He's Tom Izzo. Michigan state head basketball coach joining us continental tire coaches corner. What what's your best closing line? You ever had with a recruit like you ever walked out going? I killed it. Usually get on my hands in these. There. My wife and my children, please come. Have you ever have you ever cried when he lost to recruit? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Chris waiver. I mean, I'll remember it till the day. I'd I 'cause I recruited them for over four years and of Chris, and that was one of those I was kinda young then I was still an assistant. But you know, you do you do get emotionally involved with some of these kids, especially if you recruit them for a long time have you ever gone out? Have you ever waited or gone to recruits house and then gone outside? And then saw like coach K ready to come in or something Calipari. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, more and more. So at the schools, you know, when you go there, and everybody's lining up, and you get you know, different times. And yes, that's not always a good feeling. You know, those two guys seem to be able to last SU most of the guys they want, you know, they're to me they're more selections stage, and I'm gonna more in begging stage. Happens when you get to the tournament. Like, what changes with you and your team that we've seen these runs out of Michigan? We're not surprised anymore. So what well, you know? I do think for the most part, you know, if we can stay healthy, which we last couple of years haven't been as healthy. But if we can stay healthy, I think teams, you know, we've gotten better. And and I think there's a culture here where they believe they can win, you know, we've gone to a final four I think is a seven seat and we've not gone as a one seed. So sometimes it's a coin flip. You know, the one thing Dan about the tournament. Boy, it comes down to matchups comes down to, you know, middle Tennessee beat a couple years, you know, which go beat Duke do mean sometimes teams get hot the different soda. I tell my football buddies, you know, usually in football, the bigger stronger faster better team wins. But in basketball between the three point shot and referees, which could eliminate guys, you know, in football, you can get five holding penalties. But at least. Tackle is still in the game and basketball. He's out and that makes a difference for more upsets and and more problems, but we've kinda hung in there because I think we've got a pretty good culture where they believe that we can do well in March. Are you more apt to send a text to your one of your former players after a good game or a bad game? On their good game where my good game. No. They're good game. They're bad game. I I usually send more after bad games, you know, other girlfriends and family members are sending them after the game. You know, they'll be like chef they're bad game. So I sent a text to make a call after a tough game. Or maybe if a guy got injured or something, but that's the fun. It's been fun to follow your guys that are in the league. And and it's fun that they follow. You get some guys come back this weekend. I think they're going to try to sneak in. Nice. Nice. Is that Michigan game the Michigan game? Yeah. By the way, Weber did say when I asked him about, you know, paulie, do you have the Chris Webber? Yeah. Coach Bob four years ago. We had Weber on the show, and you ask to be at a mulligan. We go to Michigan or Michigan state and Christopher said, quote, don't do that. Don't do that don't do that. He's he's talking about the love had for you. Because the truth is I don't want to answer that right now. That's fair. You know, I I did have a I think a great relation with Christmas family, infect, his younger brother came here as a walk on. And and still a no Matini, Chris close, you know. And I have have a lotta respect for Chris every said recruiting when he was in eighth grade. I really did and head 'em up. Here. Fact, Scott skyline was playing then if you can believe that he might have been in seventh grade and we had him up for the last game of the year. And that's where the recruiting started. It just then played good enough for us. But I've remained a friend him. Can you confirm this story? Wisconsin. What is it? Okay. Michigan state is playing Georgetown. In Schuyler, his dribbling by the Georgetown bench and says to John Thompson, I need you to get a bleep and bleeper out here who can guard me. Well, if you want the truth, I don't know he said that and I would never say that the John Scott's cool crazier. In the first half of that game. I think he went one for eight. And if I recall it right in the second half, I think he was seven for eight. And when Scott got on a little roll, I was just a GE then. But when Scott got on a little roll, he had a tendency to be the Michael Jordan of his day. You know, he could talk with with anybody. So it wouldn't surprise me. But I'd never say that the John I know what you're step for Joe was one of my favorite players. He wasn't afraid of anybody. No. You know, I'll tell you a good story, Dan, it was Valentine's Day senior year, and we're playing Iowa and. Oh, I think it was God I'm trying to remember the player and the coach now player I think was from Michigan to take for the bulls very good player little guard. And and he goes running out there. BJ Armstong J Armstrong. Yep. You J, and he goes running out there with this big card and the he gives the cart as they shake hands. You know, that's the two teams would alternate. And they'd say cans at the middle. You know, they don't do that anymore. But he gave Scott a card got, you know, Barbara bench. Give it to me. You know, what the hell's this? You know? Well after the game, they asked the coach, you know, why did he give them a card? He said well, everybody else makes got mad and he scores thirty five. So I decided to be nice to him and he only got twenty five. So that was a true story and Dr Tom Davis. Oh, no. That was. Oh, God ended up going to USC. I'm. Mm. No, no, no. Oh, jeez. And you can't remember it's your guys job to figure those things out. All right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll wasn't lute Olson midnight lute. Now, it was named George George Raveling, George Raveling. It was yours. Great. You know, he was kind of guy to and and he had BJ give him that Gordon card, and it was a nice villain, tines Descartes. And he said, you know, and it's true. Scott's goes to this day was one of the few players that ever could play maddening -gree. You know, a lotta guys think they can. But it usually works and their detriment. He the matter he got and the more people got on them the Petteri play, you know? And so that's why jed got them all the time. Riled him up. Hey, good luck against the wolverines. And and we'll probably talk to you during the tournament. That is heavy great man, either you bail out earlier, you have your usual tournament run either way. We'll probably check in with you. I appreciate it. Dan. Thank you show. And thank you, man. That's a Izzo. Michigan state's head coach. Yeah. Scott scowls. Didn't Scott's gonna have the NBA record for most assists in a game. When he was with our landing like twenty four he had the record for awhile. Let me check. Okay. Continental tire coaches corner. Proud to be the exclusive Thai of the Dan Patrick show. No matter where you drive what you drive how you drive continental designs tires for. What you do? For more information. Visit continentaltire dot com. Continental tire for what you do. Yes. Billing according to basketball reference, Scotty sky still has the record at thirty assists in a game in nine hundred ninety John Stockton has number two or three number four. I thought Kevin porter was in there too. For some reason. Now thirty is the best John Stockton at twenty eight twenty seven twenty six Rondo had twenty five kids up there. A few times Rondos up there. A couple times is Magic's up there bunch. All right. We'll take a break. We'll bring back some of the comments Lincoln Riley had as he gave his side of the story to Charley Casserly subpoena in the former NFL GM who now works for the NFL network had some things to say about Kyla Murray. They were not complimentary of color Murray at the combine. So we'll bring back some of those comments Doc Rivers in the final hour of the show will look a little closer what happened with Golden State against the Celtics have that for you coming up right after this twenty one after the hour, Dan Patrick show. Okay. This is just a thirty second commercial. And I'm gonna throw a lot of numbers that you, please. Please stay with me in just fifteen minutes. You could save fifteen percent or more on car insurance. The company that has been offering great rates and great service for seventy five years. It's gyco. I'm using for a long time itself. And anytime you need help you could. Speak to one of their trains specialists, twenty four seven no recordings the company. Gyco. Go to Geico dot com today. Sorry for all the numbers, but I've been a fan and a customer guy go for a long time and in five four three two one. I'm out if you could live your most prosperous life. What would it look like would you maybe open your own business or buy new home? Go back to college, maybe pay off your loans and save for retirement. I know I'm man I could be three out of those four easy. But whatever your vision is into it can help you get closer to that future with financial tools that will help you. 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Proud makers of turbo tax QuickBooks and meant let me tell you without Pete who loved hockey and always wanted to play in the NHL Pete flayed since he was three and begged his mom to let them stay on the ice by some nights. He even slept in his hockey skates. P practiced and practiced onto one day when he was forty seven feet realized he just wasn't that good. So he threw his skates in the trash. But then he heard how Geico proud partner of the NHL good save money on car insurance. So he switched and saved a bunch. So it all worked out. Only. I don't know. What list you're looking at for most assists in a basketball game in the NBA all time. I got Scott skylines with thirty. Kevin porter had Twenty-nine Bob Cousy had twenty eight guy. Rodgers had twenty eight and then John Stockton had twenty. I have NBA reference in they're going back to the eighty three seasons. Maybe they didn't go back that far. Well, L check. ABA guys know, these are all NBA. Guy. Rodgers with San Francisco he played with wilt Cousy in their Kevin porter. Kevin Puertas with New Jersey in nineteen seventy eight and he had twenty nine assists. But skylines as the most assists in an NBA game with thirty we've told you about golden road brewing. And they got a really cool new product at told spike Agua Fresca. And fritzy, by the way, says do you know, I took Spanish and aqua- Fresca means fresh waters, man. Thank you. Paulie, took some home. What would Dana think of MRs paths is going through it? She loves it. I like it her and her friends are going to get loose on this stuff. I'm gonna kidding. Oh, they go up to Vermont. They go nuts. It's just what they took up to Vermont. Yes. They always gets broken when the girls go up to Vermont last year, the septic system available nationally, and you can look for golden roads spiked Agua Fresca available nationally in three fantastic flavors, mango, and he's a good man to strawberry pineapple and cucumber lime. So dive into something new golden road, spike. Agua fresco twist on tradition. Try to debt. Soul. This from Adam Schefter teams that have spoken to the Pittsburgh Steelers about a potential in Tonio Brown. Trade have been told a deal is expected to be in place by Friday league. Sources tell ESPN keep in mind any trade. That's agreed upon can't be officially announced until next Wednesday at four eastern when the twenty nineteen league year begins. So he's got three years left on his deal base salary of twelve point six eleven point three twelve point five, no guaranteed money left on that contract. As of Friday last Friday, three teams have shown the most interest. The raiders Redskins titans. There was word that AirAsia was not interested in Tonio Brown. I thought the jets might be interested in Antonio Brown. But I have these are the teams titans Redskins and the raiders for Antonio Brown. So something to keep an eye on here in the next forty eight hours, by the way, I mentioned that we had Lincoln Riley on the Oklahoma head coach, and he was talking about Cuyler Murray. Kyla murray? There was little character assassination with Charley Casserly from the NFL network. And I asked Lincoln Riley, his reaction to what Charley Casserly reported. Not surprising. I mean, that's just in the fact that it's at time of year, you know, people are going to say different things. I just hate that people go go out make these comments, and you know, you'd never even thought to the two people that have actually coached this kid. You've never you haven't talked to teammates. You know, he went on what one team. Said was that's probably smokescreen knowing of this draft deal works and all the different, you know, back and forth. But this kid's a tremendous tremendously for us a tremendous leader, very aggressive, very poor. They have all he cares about twenty. And that really I think our team took on personality without a doubt. So he's he you know, and as far as processing offense. I mean, they they just had the, you know, greatest single season in the history of college football. So I think he can process just thought. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if he's a quick study. I don't know if he's a bookworm. I don't know if he's a guy who loves getting in there and staying in there, you don't have to be chatty. You know, who had one of the more. Unbelievable interviews at the combine. All right. And he went he could have gone number one in the draft or he. He eventually went at the end of the first round. My source said the best interview that he's ever been around at the combine. Aaron rodgers. And he went last in the first row. Alex Smith went one. Aaron Rodgers went last Johnny Manziel blew people away at the combine Peter King wrote a column v real Johnny Manziel because we thought maybe that's who Johnny Manziel was. He was coached up to be great in the interviewing process at the combine. He would remember your name if you've ever been around somebody, and they will try to emphasize your name, though, they might talk to you. And they might give you an answer. And then they'll go, but you know, Dan, in athletes will do this. Sometimes, you know, they'll personalize it Alex Rodriguez would do that all the time. And you know, you personalize it in doesn't feel real. But you know, sometimes you have people do that Johnny Manziel was doing. He he blew away. He knew their names, he remembered their names, and what did that matter? I just wanna know do. Johnny Manziel didn't work hard at football. He was really good at football. He just didn't work hard. Michael Vick didn't. Work are jamarcus. Russell didn't work hard. It's really hard to have a great career. If you don't love being a football player in absorbing all of that information. Like Brady loves it. Like, he he he eats it up. It just can't absorb enough of it. Peyton Manning in the same way. It's hard to just go. With my talent. I'm able to cruise because it'll catch up to you. If Cuyler Murray doesn't love football in doesn't show at the respect that it deserves at that position. It'll catch up to him might be three years maybe five years down the road. But it'll catch up to you because the gain changes, and you must change with it. And you must study the reason why Brady can do this at forty two. And I told you the quote that he told somebody that had had related to me because I go do you think Brady continues to play? And you know, my friend said Brady said to me, why would I quit? It's so bleep and easy. But he he's actually he gets better in some ways. Because mentally he studies he goes to the line of scrimmage and processes, so he knows what you're doing. But you only get that do that. And are able to do that. If you put in the time in the effort, and that's what separates are you? You know, what would be a gym rat in basketball? Are you that kind of quarterback? And if you are coupled with your natural ability, you have a chance to be very successful. But you can't trust me you can mail it in and try to skate by on just natural talent. And you could end up being Michael Vick who says as talented as anybody who's been in that position. He just didn't put in the time Ryan leaf with was thought of on equal footing with Peyton Manning physically was better than Peyton Manning. He didn't put into time it'll catch up to you. Yeah. Going back to nailing the interview either. A bunch of stories here of two thousand thirteen EJ manual quarterback. Florida state love everyone is gushing about him at the interview. Remember, he came on our show and afterwards rock. Wow. That guy's awesome. He went right up the charts. He's out of football. He had a couple of couple of Cup of coffee in a league. I think he's still in the league. He may might be a third string quarterback. I think he's still. I mean, he we we liked him. Yes, personally. Yes. I thought that he was great. He was very personable. But just because Kyle Murray wasn't personable with me at the Super Bowl when he was making his rounds. Doesn't mean that he can't be won't be a good interview. He got bad advice there. But the fact that Lincoln Riley set, in fact, Seton we'll play this because I asked Lincoln Riley about if he saw the interview I did with Tyler Murray at the Super Bowl he told me about it. He told me about it after actually what did he say? Well, he was in a tough position, you know, 'cause he hadn't he hadn't made up his mind yet. And he's he's such a kid. I mean doesn't wanna lie doesn't wanna tell anything wrong? He's he's a and and so it was a tough position for him. And so I think that's, you know, part of the reason news ready to just get this decision made and get on with. It was the kind of constant back and forth. Not really being able to talk about one or the other. You know, put the kid understandably in a pretty tough position. Yeah. He wasn't a tough position. And then I tried to talk to his dad who was in the room just to 'cause I thought, you know, the dads pulling all the strings here. But he never should have been on tour with the product knowing. I have to ask you about these other things and these were really simple questions to deflect. Have you decided when will you decide what do you love more? What will this come down to you know, you you you can get around this? But if you put somebody in a room, and Sarah, here's the question. Because if I'm Gatorade or anybody or his agent, I say, okay, I want you to look great. I want people to say, man. He's awesome. Russell Wilson who we have enjoyed a relationship with him since college can come on and not say anything Derek Jeter, an entire career of not saying anything, but being available to not say anything Cuyler Murray should have been in the position to just you know, I can give you a sort of a little bit of an answer flirt with the a little bit here. But I can't I haven't made up my mind. What do you love, you know? I love them both you know, I was successful at football. And you know, I didn't know what people would think of my talents, and you know, my too short to play in the NFL, and there's part of me that wants to prove people wrong. But you know, the Oakland. As I'm the eighth pick and the baseball draft. So I really have a tough decision. What do you think it comes down to you know, I think I got away in everything from everybody. Here. What is my future? What position when do I make the majors with the Oakland A's in my first round talent? Could I start in the NFL like you could you could have him come off as he's giving thought to your questions without really giving you answers, and that's where people around him failed failing. Because when I had him on a November. He was a good interview. Now, he wasn't over the top great. But we were pleasantly surprised when we had him on. But there was no decision pending there. You know? It was like, hey, I'm going to go with the Oakland. A's? I got five million dollars waiting for me. But then all of a sudden, hey, you can make a couple of hundred grand promoting Gatorade. Yeah. I'll do it. You don't wanna pass up that cash, especially if you're giving back five million to the Oakland A's. Oh, and he says to me before we do the interview we're out throwing the football. And he said I hear you're a tough interview. And I thought oh boy like who said that. And so I talked to his dad a little bit there. And then I realize okay. So Cuyler Murray, then goes back. He's he talks to his coach about that interview in the front offices, the NFL front offices have that interview. That's being shared by these front offices because they're looking at that with Tyler marine those who may have the opportunity to draft him. Like, that's a big moment. You're on a big stage and you freeze up and you didn't look good at all. What happens if there is controversy? What happens if you have to get in front of the media? What happens? What do you say? Like, these are things that really matter. You're the face of the franchise if he goes to Zona, you're the face the French. Hey, lost three in a row. Okay. How are you going to handle that? Tom Brady, no matter. What happens? They can be blown out in Kansas City. And you're onto Cincinnati Brady has to stand there and take the, you know, the fire he's taken the bullets. What do you say? How do you say you're the face of the franchise and that is an important role. But as far as what he does on a whiteboard diagramming place. I don't know. I don't know that. I had know the former NFL scout. Who tweeted me text me this morning to say, here's a couple of things he goes down to easily, and he's got a ten step drop, which you can't do that and have protection in the NFL, but his arm is legit member. You had the scout. Who said they had questions about his arm, and I went I don't know who that scout is, but I could've had you standing next to me at the Super Bowl when he was wizened twenty orders to make love, and and there was giddy up in there like that was where you if you play baseball in somebody's throwing over ninety or ninety five and it just has that hop. He had that hop. He had that zip so arm strength. No question. The scout. That I talked to said, I'm not sure he's five ten. I'm really not. I want to see if he gets measured at his pro day. So there's going to be questions because he got he rose to quickly Patrick Mahomes. They couldn't take him down because he rose right at the end right before. The draft because you know, the label on him is he's farve like, but he thinks he's far like, but he can't play like far he takes he gambles too much risk taker, but you didn't have time to do that. Because you're thinking he's not going in the first round, he's talented. But you know, he's going to be a second third round pick to Shawn Watson, you know. He lost a Pittsburgh. He's not a great runner. He's not gonna hold up in the okay? This is what happens, but if you rise right before the draft. Nobody can carve you up, and that's what happened with Patrick Mahomes. Kansas City goes we'll take him. Wait. You got Alex Smith. We'll take him because they knew personality confidence not afraid, and I guess he is a little more like Brett Farr. Maybe better than Brett farve at this age. The kind words name. Thank you. Thank you. Patrick. All right. We'll come back your phone calls, and paulie has a new poll question. I didn't know we had a poll question. We'll find out what it is and numbers tobacco by claim the Golden State Warriors with and without boogie cousins. That's after this on the Dan Patrick show, vivid seats is an online event ticket marketplace dedicated to providing fans of live entertainment with experience that last a lifetime with vivid seats listeners can watch their favorite teams and artists perform in person vity helps fans find their seats to any of their favorite live events, including sports, concerts, theater and more. They offer great prices and an easy purchasing experience with the podcast code Deepak. 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Join any winning sportscasters Suzy Shuster with co host Aaron Larson as the all star team faces off against the LA clippers the Denver Nuggets. And the Boston Celtics play was phenomenal in forget about it. He he deserved a place in the all star game. But he he really showed what he could become the NBA. Download the official Lakers podcast every week on podcast point sports net. Wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Stay tuned for sixty seconds of AP news headlines right after this podcast sky, dining visits, amaze. Jeff, but you know, what else is amazing an iphone six s for just forty nine bucks at metro really imagine streaming all the way down with that amazing Cameron. I've. Switching that smart. You know, what else is smart parachutes? Switch to metro and get an amazing iphone six s for only forty nine bucks. Metro T mobile phone offer requires porting of number not currently active on T mobile network or active on metro and past ninety days. See store for details and terms and conditions. Email after I mentioned putting down my dog Louis yesterday this from Trish, Annella, DP, you touch my heart and you were talking about Lou this morning. Seventeen years is a good life, and it's obvious. He he brought you joy, great joy. Hope you're able to bring him home in bury him, or at least make sure you got his ashes or special dogs in beautiful boxes in our home is from Tyler. Emailed longtime listener first-time, Email or my condolences to you. And your family about Lou if you're anything like you are off the air than opposed on the arm. Sure, you had he had a wonderful life, many blessings to you and your family are J in Washington. Sorry about you saying goodbye to your dog when he talks about doing the same thing where you go and put them down. I told this story about you know, putting my dog down yesterday and he's seventeen and I didn't know at the time that you also have to let the other dog in the house say goodbye as well. So the vet said go get your other dogs. So it's a mile away went home and got the six year old brought him in sniffed Lou when he was on the floor. He had already passed away. And then the six year old peed on him. So my oldest brother just text me to say, by the way, I don't want you guys to get any ideas about what your dog did to Lou I'm going to have a closed casket when bear. My brother my all right. Okay. So close casket. All right. I get it. Yeah. I think everybody knows or they know somebody who's gone through it. But it's not easy. And I was asking Seton yesterday. Just you know, what I I didn't know what I was gonna feel what to do and how to make it any better. And then I just said, you know, what I went in there crying, and I left crime is like, you know, what he was worth it. The reason why it hurts so much as you love them so much, and they love you so much. So that that's really what it came down to and got to hang out. But I have so much respect for these vets. I did. Anyway, our dog was the third dog that he had to put down that day. So could you imagine going and knowing how important these animals are people and your families? And you gotta go in there. And ours was the third one you had to put down the well, we put our dog ruby down. I'm a cry for sure, and my wife is a crier. So we were sobbing when we did this and the the vet there's a vet and then like. A technician there, and they both started crying. And then the one whispered to the other Harry up to it. Because it was just like it was just an awful scene. And like, all right. We just have to get this over with now. But thank you for the emails in tweet. Thank you. We did go through all of those. And I I do appreciate your reach now. But that man that's a that's one of those raw moments, and we just went home and just kind of sit around, and I said to my wife, let's go get a couple of beers. So we went got a couple of beers. And then we just sat there and told stories about the dog were crying while we're tell. What are we doing? We should be at home drinking these beers. Because people are looking at us like what's wrong with the Patrick Finn? You know, their problems. They're crying. Yes. I can't believe you're dog pee on. No, I know. Wild scene. Well, you think it's going to be one of those great moments where the younger dog who was around the older dog for six years. And he's going to say goodbye, it's going to be emotional sniff him, you know, maybe he'll lick game or kissing him or something. And then all of a sudden he does one lap around the dog on the floor on a blanket. And then he listens legs and peas on him. And and it just broke the tension and even the vet needed. It is. Well, he goes, oh, those damn Sheba's and other known for this is such a no not dad when you look up the this. They're not peeing on type of dog. Frisky loves family owned a peon former. Yeah. But I it was where my then my wife goes, you know, we all grieve in our own special way in a just lighten the mood considerably because it was dread- and it hit me about halfway through yesterday show where you just start to think. Okay. I got I got to take him in a two thirty Easter. And so, you know, I I had time I still had to do that last. I'm like my head just wasn't in it. I was trying to stay in the in the moment in the show. And I just said, you know, I'm just going to say this. And you know, it was it was a good moment. Good moment. Was telling mclovin, mclovin came in. He said, you know, me and my wife were crying last night. And I didn't say exactly that. I was she was. But one of the things is we have young kids. And I kinda don't wanna get a dog because it seemed very emotional dumping. They give you so much. That's the I mean, they're always there even in pain even in old age. He was their tail wagon. You know, God. That's why to hurt so much, man. Yes. He and they hold no grudges. They held no grudges yet. Right. They forget, you could be a jerk. Forget to feed him or something or just whatever. And then it's like, okay. No problem. Where's my tennis ball? Let's go play knew where are you going to take me for a walk? Yeah. Hey, you want to go for a ride is that a treat butter? Yeah. But thank you. Thank you for the emails in the tweets, and hopefully, you never have to go through it. But if you do I hope it hurts because that'll mean that you really love that dog and vice versa. I mean, that's the way we took away our pain final hour coming up Doc Rivers to the clippers March is women's history month and this week the producers guide with Todd garner is highlighting past interviews with some of the most talented women in Hollywood like rebel Wilson Isla Fisher, and hunger games producer, Nina Jacobson. Once you've told somebody wanna do your project. You can never really say, you know. I really want to do. Somebody you don't like every night forever. Don't miss the producers guide with Todd Gerner this week on podcast one. Sky diving business amazed. Yep. But you know, what else is amazing an iphone six s for just forty nine bucks at metro really imagine streaming all the way down with that amazing Cameron. I've switching that smart. You know, what else is smart parachutes? Switch to metro and get an amazing iphone six s for only forty nine bucks. Metro by t mobile phone offer requires porting of number not currently active on T mobile network or active on metro and past ninety days. See store for details and terms and conditions guy covert since I witness interviews with inanimate objects. This is Brian Bruno live on the scene of a recent windstorm here to describe the event a chest of drawers storm howling outside. So I thought I'd stay in and watch a rom com. Five minutes into the flick, a tree branch slams through the window. Where are you hurt? I just gotta scratch on my chest. Your chest of drawers can't help you in a windstorm. But the geiko insurance agency can help you get covered for personal property damage. Co gyco to see how affordable homeowners insurance can be. I'm Rita Foley with an AP news minute everybody on board. A Virgin Atlantic. Charter flight to London from Barbados is in quarantine in London because of some sort of illness on board the plane possible. Chest infection says one passenger seat. Our Kelly insists he's not guilty of abusing underage girls. He cried talking to Gayle king on CBS this morning. Crazy passing what I've been through. Oh, right now just think I need to be lost in whole girls against a wheel chain them up in my basement. And and don't let them eat and don't let them out unless they need some shoes down the street from the ankle he was arrested in Chicago last month is now out on bail. He talked to CBS this morning. A lawyer for President Trump's former fix or Michael Cohen reportedly spoke to the Trump legal team last April about a possible pardon for Cohen Coen's going to prison for lying to congress and other offenses, but he's now cooperating with the Russian. I'm Rita Foley.

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