20 Episode results for "George Herbert Walker"

Punchlines at Lunchtime: Political Comedian Will Durst

The Takeout

38:51 min | 2 years ago

Punchlines at Lunchtime: Political Comedian Will Durst

"This is the takeout. Not what your country can do for you with major Garrett, mister, Gorbachev tear down this wall. This defied. Change has come through America, and we will make America. Great again. Welcome to the very best part of my broadcast week. I major Garrett chief White House correspondent CBS news. Most of you already knew that also the host and creator this amazing program known as the takeout started. As a podcast grew into a digital television show, and is now a radio program on more than forty stations around the country. And boy do I have a chance to expand. That today. Why do I say that well because we're at an undisclosed location in midtown Manhattan with very Agust audience that would be in the position if so motivated to take the show and put it on more radio station. So if I do my job today. Well, it will be on more radio stations. If I don't do my job today. It'll just be on the ones it's on. Now. All on me. I love that pressure. Ladies and gentlemen. So you just heard a laugh there'll be more laughs during this program. Ladies and gentlemen, I promise you because here in New York. We are honored. And I'm extremely excited to be joined by what the New York Times the New York Times calls quite possibly the best political satirist working in the country to day. That's a direct quote. His name is will Durst. He is a well established super well established stand up comedian been doing it since the mid seventies. Which means he is not only done stand up. He is successfully performed stand up. You can't be in the business this long without doing it. Well, and making people laugh over and over and over across lots of time spans and presidencies and political situations in our country. We'll get up on that microphone CEO. And it's great to have you. Thank you for letting me play in the lovely little subterranean basement here. August is is the operating word right here. I would try not to get too many labs out because people are eating and laughter and eating involve the same orifice and can be complicated. Yeah. There's liability issues. For sure. So we'll is in New York because he has a show as you might imagine. Durst case scenario midterm displaying, the playroom theater, that's off Broadway. But that's close enough to Broadway from my taste, ladies and gentlemen that show runs through Sunday. How's that show working out for you? Will it it changes every day? The hard part is. This summer. I would switch between baseball and the news and stuff would happen between batters. I mean it happened. Tell me about. Yeah. So that's that's I had I had ten minutes. Anthony scare Mucci and that lasted for ten days that material right now, it's not just old. It's it's ancient. It's it's wearing a breastplate, right? Yes. Exactly. So I gotta keep up. That's the hard part. You gotta keep up and. In my audience. We have radio stations all around the country. We have people who tune into the program because they are willing to adjust to different voices. We have voices on the right? We have pro-trump supporters on my show with regularity. We have people the resistance either in congress or in the United States Senate, and they have to live in this continuum of conversation that goes from right to left with regularity. Does your comedy? It's hard to pick it up the Democrats these days because they're useless. No, they are there there. I have democratic jobs. The reason the Democrats are so intent on passing the stem cell bills are depending on the research generators spine. I have plenty. Oh, wrong crowd. Okay. Okay. Ripple at the end disclose the location. But you feel bad pick it on the Democrats days. They're they're as useless as ojection seat in a helicopter. Okay. We got that. Just sat there? That we get a better. This is real time. Comedic appraisal real time. Yeah. I'm doubling down right now. When you say, it's hard to make fun of Democrats. It's one I would assume one reasons because they're just not as newsworthy. No, they're not. They're not being covered is as much and they don't have a leader. They're kinda like hurting not just cats, but drunken cats on ice skates in are. They're all over the place. So and how does so I've heard you do this in your bits, and we had Samantha b on this program. Not so long ago, and she made this observation that would people would come up to her and say, this must be just gold and she said, yes. But not exactly I think you have the same perspective that there are opportunities. But they're also difficulties. We'll people's attention span is so short these days that they forget difference. Get member he the president had a tweet. About Kofi, despite the constant negative press Kofi and his obvious. What he was trying to say was trying to say negative press coverage because he says that all the time, and he probably tried to delete it in. He was betrayed by his undersize digits, and he hit send and and then he doubled down. He wouldn't even admit a mistake there. But people don't remember that. So I have to keep pushing and I try to find general themes about what's going on. And one of them is with everybody else, you could you could start doing material like Clinton, of course, Clinton in ninety eight everything was below the belt. And so that was. Yeah. Comedic -ly. Yeah. Every every to bed hack in America took his sex jokes made presidential sex joke. So everybody became a political comedian, and we were talking before the show, and as I mentioned your career spans, lots of different time periods in American history at least from the mid seventies forward, you said after nine eleven there was a space in time. When you simply couldn't make jokes about the president. It was it was too sensitive every everyone was too traumatized by nine eleven and that had to you had to forge a different kind of political satire spe head to toe by the respond. Jimmy Carter was the hardest. You feel bad picking. Jimmy Carter was a kick. It a puppy. You know, you couldn't Reagan though, had a great sense of humor. So he could he could make jokes, and he could take the jokes. You felt like you weren't you weren't using a baseball bat on a dead horse rate. I remember he was shot. And he didn't know he was shot. And my joke was I don't know about you. I'd like a president or the central nervous system. What is your she's much funnier than the response that I got for this audience. What's your best Obama joke? The fact that there was no scandal. There was no scandal. I remember people got upset for a week because he wore a beige suit. There was he was smooth. He no matter what you thought of its policies. You had to admire is ability to get involved in them to do consider him. Yeah, we go. I didn't know there listening. They were eating. We'll see hard to make fun of well. The subjects were so permanent. You know, they didn't waver at all was the whole birther thing. He was born in Kenya. No. He wasn't boarding. Kenny was born in Honolulu in a manger. We all know that. So. Yeah. So I was able to keep material for a long time with Obama and with George Herbert Walker Bush who who sucked for comedy. But then you had Dan Quayle. Dan, Quayle was a cornucopia of delights. His biggest fear was at George. Herbert Walker would die in office. And the next guy wouldn't keep him on his VP. See that's why I like working for adults. I do that joke at a comedy club. And they just stare at me. What's the difference in comedy clubs now when you first started your career audiences more or less the same as the difficulty factor? Always the same in a comedy club or come a comedic tastes and expectations change over time. Yeah. It's gotten the short attention span. You know, has it used to be when I started out. It was like verbal jazz people came the old rock and roll who came and showed up because they wanted to hear the lyrics. They got tired of not being able to hear the Lear and they would sit down and listen to a joke. You could take your time, and they would actually pay money to see comedy. And then somebody discovered the I mean, sometimes the joke was spinning a small yarn. It's like a store and a payoff, and they wait for the payoff and those kind of comics like Alan king could take his time and and go forever. And and then you had Carlin who changed changed the whole game Carl was responsible for switching. And we're gonna get to sort of a dissection of George Carlin changed the game is longtime audience members of this show, the takeout. No. He is my all time favorite comic great inspiration early in my life. I listened to his records all the time. I would say my earliest political observations were formed in part by the humor and satire of George Carlin. I major Garrett we're in midtown Manhattan had a very nice, but undisclosed location. We have a live audience of phenomenal people who own radio stations. And our hope we're liking what I've done so far. You're listening to the takeout from midtown Manhattan wilder back in a minute. You're listening to the takeout. Welcome back. I major Garrett you're on this new the take will Durst our special guests that murmuring you hear in the background is our live audience. We don't get a chance to have a live audience that often they're enjoying the laughs of our special guest will Durst or the great stand up comedians in American history. I'll just say that I mean. I mean, the New York Times says he's one of the greatest address working in comedy right now. So I think that's close enough. There's other guys and gals, but they don't write their own material. I write my own with you write your own fifteen writers. Yeah. Right. So we went to break talking about George Carlin. Just a couple of minutes. I don't want to do a whole deep dive on that. But you said he changed the game. How George Carlin change the comedic game? Well, Lenny Bruce started back in the fifties and mart saw they they changed the game and stop being mother-in-law jokes started actually being responsive to what was going on in the news. I think mort saw got the cover of time magazine in nineteen fifty nine and then the election of sixty but after the SAS nation of Kennedy, there weren't many jokes from sixty three comedy was kind of seniors to frivolous and rock and roll became a Senate and then in nineteen. The seventy two I think that's when everything started again, then you had Cheech and Chong and Carlin, Richard Pryor. And they brought it back to what was happening. Vietnam had allowed right with that. And how much did language meaning the challenge that underlie? One of carlin's seven words, you can't say on television. How much did that language leap from genteel to profane change commie well comedy, always the average age of a comedy club? Audience is eighteen to thirty five is now has been forever show me something happens and after thirty five people get kids and mortgages, and they leave the comedy were. So everybody wants those comics on that stage to reflect that generation that's going to the club. And now they're running out of envelopes to push the edge of right? So because everything's been taken a ready all the edginess is more or less been crossed over. Because as the sound edgy anymore. That's why my generation or spelt humor would now be edgy. Be ten keel. Yeah. It's it's it's hard because sex jokes, always work. You know because people are a little tittering nervous. And then it will make them laugh. And it's also something that everybody can relate to write as does all the evacuation humor with all the fluids. I won't go into people are eating lovely sauce on their asparagus. Bundle. But. They're so so now you go to a club, and you are I would feel kind of left out, but the kids relate to it because now to comedy club audiences reflect what we in our industry all the time. Belabor is those deep partisan divide in America. That is to say, our comedy club audience is based on your experience self selecting and generally of one particular point of view, and therefore like all your jokes or do you find sometimes half your audiences with you and half the audience is kind of shaking head a really believes really depends on geography. Yeah, it's all like real estate location location location. Exactly, I live in San Francisco, which is beyond blue. I mean, we're not blue were post blue. We're indigo were eggplant aubergine periwinkles Rulli, and yes, we know the difference. So so people come with politically incorrect material to San Francisco, and it doesn't go over. It's not that they're smarter than any other audience. It's they think they need to be smarter. There used to be a comedy club in Harvard square. It was one of the best clubs in the country. Was catch a rising star and people weren't smarter. But they thought that they should live up to the standards of being close to this major university that was right there in in in Cambridge and Ed so audiences would make the leap for you. You could is like a quarterback you could throw a deep pass, and they would run for it. Whereas sometimes audiences go. Hi, I don't run just let let it go. But that was the best club in the country. So tell our audience what is hardest about stand up comedy, which is working your material doing your bit and getting off to a very rough start and a feel as if you are dying. I've watched a couple of documentaries on this and comedians, all in those documentaries talk about that start. And when it gets off to a rough start you feel as if you're dying right there. And you've got to figure out a way out. I've been there. My brother. Yeah. Every when you start out doing stand up comedy, you have no idea what what your relationship to the audiences or the evening or the club. There are so many different fingerprints that smudge the lands before you get on stage that you have to figure it out. So you will die twenty times are the forty that you go on stage when you start out then. And then as you become a triple digit comic stage one hundred times that probably drop down to ten times. And even today Jay Leno will die one out of forty times onstage, and he may be the best pure stand that we've ever had Seinfeld is genius technician. If you ever seen the documentaries that he does he did that comedian where he went through his whole set, and you could see him craft a seven minute tonight show gig, and it took him forever. He got heckled at the comedy club. The comedy cellar here in New York. And he said I paraphrase, but it was only like I had the number one show on television for nine years. What do I need to do to get your respect? It was because it's a comedy club. They have no respect. Right. You mentioned. Heckling have you been heckled a lot constantly, my I was I was feeling agree prepare as a comedian methodologies to deal with hecklers. No live in the moment now because because that seems so inauthentic if you show up with a with a canned line, and my my thing on stage is a moth phthalic. And so I can't do a plastic joke. You know, and people can recognize the difference between the two voices. What I what I was forged in the crucible the central valley because I did a lot of one nighters Modesto and Stockton, and Tracy and and Bakersfield, so my timing is such that if the audience is in laughing, I'm talking so. So it's just a through line. So you got to be incredibly sober to get a line in. And then I'm willing to deal with what is funny as to you about the president. The fact a lot of the stuff is in congress. What he says he's going to bring back the coal industry, the coal industry. Yeah. And then eight track tapes, and we're gonna have lamps burn whale blubber again. So. Mostly it's the incongruity of what we know to be semi the future. And do you find your audiences are capable of laughing about this particular time in politics? A lot of people come up to me at airports and train stations and say they feel some level of anxiety. Some people are also very excited about it. But those who feel anxious or traumatize or exhausted by it. Can they not laugh, you know, I've been doing this little show, and obviously doing it in San Francisco, which is a little to the left of Fidel, but I've been doing and people have been coming to my show as a sense of community. I get people. I swear to God, I'm not making this up major. I get people come on the show and afterwards. I say, thank you. I never thought. I'd laugh again. It's almost like cathartic. Yeah. Yeah. Because people need to know that they're not alone. I'm have comedian half therapist. I'm like thera- median. Is that a new experience for you? I mean that kind of audience reaction Gympie, let yourself when you're crafting the jokes that you have a sort of larger obligation to not just make people laugh, but laughter is that just make money. No, I don't care anymore. I used to care used to wear a suit all the time. I used to cut my hair. I'm I'm wearing this is a possible. You know? Audition for the part of buffalo Bill in a community theater. Production of anti-gay your gun. So just just preparing because I I really no there's no business like show business. I've been practicing that. So I don't care at this point. I just wanna get stuff. I used to try to control myself and hit both sides equally. Now now, I'm just going to make stuff up. And does that give you a creative freedom that you're enjoying more than that more restricted approach? You took him the best part. The best part is when something happens that day, and you come up with a line about it and cash, right? Yeah. Because being the political comic if something happens, and I don't talk about it. That's kinda shaky in terms of trust. And and and so all I have to do is mention it. And that's why need the deadlines I write a column to some commentaries for mostly NPR stations. And but I need that. That deadline. I'm still in highschool of its due Monday morning. I don't start until Sunday night after sixty minutes. Eeking of deadlines. Will we have here on the show got to get to a break? Major Garrett word at undisclosed location and a mighty fancy one midtown Manhattan back in a second. You're listening to the takeout from CBS News Radio. I major Garrett. Welcome back to the takeout. Thanks very much for joining us this weekend every single week. We'll is our special guests where at a undisclosed, but very fancy location midtown Manhattan having lunch our audience live audience. We're happy to hear that they are stationed openers from around the radio industry in this great country. So if they're impressed, maybe the show will expand if they're impressed. Well, maybe it will contract either way it's all on me. And you by the way will so bring your game. I feel so bad. You coulda had a halfway decent guest. And these people have been really always got Henry Kissinger look at that. Oh, he obviously knows the right people. But then you end up with a comic. So what I spy or to be a satirist? But you say that people think you have goat legs. Okay. That was a test. Joe? The entrepreneurial joke, George W C that goes over. Well, that was that was a great thing. But George W was the golden age of political comedy. I didn't have to write material sorta got it was and read I had I was carry three by five cards at the end of Bush's. Second term. I had both sides full of Begum quotes. Remember, one was I think we can all agree. The past is over. More and more of our imports are coming from overseas. When in Rome, do is the Romanians do he actually said that my favorite was the problem with the French is they don't have a word for entrepreneurs. There we go. There we go tough crowd tough. So sometimes as you just said, the comedy writes, it self sometimes you've gotta take an event a situation and build a joke around how long does that take for you typically to put a ticket necessarily a full bit twenty minutes, or whatever how long has typical presentation my research, I constantly constantly try to find the buzzwords. So that you can include so much as much information as possible in the shortest economical way. And I listen to news talk all the time. So I can get a gave up on music in nineteen seventy four. I missed a tough time to give up on music. The eagles. I barely aware. The eagles. Buys their records. Anyway, you didn't miss just to the top three all-time selling records. But I listen to new struck. So I hear what people are talking about. And I could hear the buzz phrases, and I'll write them down. If I hear a great buzz rate, and then on try to include it in a joke later, I and I read a lot of papers papers newspapers, big flat, white dense, right? Comes off printing presses. Yeah. Delivered in bundles heard about their demise. They were all the rage about twenty five years ago when I. Yes. Exactly. I worked for I worked for morning afternoon. Newspapers back in the day. Usually. Houston post, Las Vegas review journal and emerald globe. News. Those are my first three newspapers so ever eat at the state statesman. Is that it oh, the sixty four no the big tech sake, tactic, Texan emerald. Yes. I have. I didn't I did not eat did not finish the state. I did not eat mega Don stake that they serve you that. If you eat it, you get it for free. And if you don't cost seven hundred dollars, I never did that is seven hundred dollars. It's pricey. It's. And just for those who are familiar with this Morello tradition. It's not just the steak you have to eat. You have to eat the salad. You have to eat potatoes. You have to eat the biscuits. You can't get away free unless you eat everything. It's the sides that kill you, not the state. Anyway, what did I g- Russian Admiral or for me in the audience? So you mentioned a moment ago. The Democrats don't have a quote, unquote leader. What do you anticipate comedic -ly now that we've got through the midterms and the twenty twenty campaign is coming? There's going to be a fight to be that nominee in this voice in this the representation of democratic part. I expect chaos. Good. Yeah. It's going to be good for me the rest of the country, not so much. But yeah, it'll be good. I mean, I live in San Francisco. The only tone the world were Nancy Pelosi gets protested from the left, right? Is she funny is there anything funny about Nancy Pelosi? Yeah. She's funny. Yeah. She's she got a sense of humor. Anyway, fun of her. Have you ever? Have you ever done Pelosi Joe? Yeah. What's the Pelosi joke? Soundly god. I can't remember. I know her daughter, I know Christine, so I had to stop make. Yeah. Yeah. You used to do a show in San Francisco with Willie Brown. Did you not? We did a morning radio show in San Francisco on station called the quake, which shook itself apart. Yeah. An hour three hour morning radio show for a year. We did it. And then, of course, ratings were going up. So we cancelled right and people here what understand about that. It happens. Even the best shows best shows get canned Willie's, funny Willie. He is also smooth man is he's naturally funny. Is he's the only politician, I know who can enter a revolving door behind you and come out, I yeah. Yes. That's the art of politics their fingers. Yeah. That one exactly do you find in your career. Have you found in your career? Politicians that you thought were better than average at the sort of Tele joke thing because some politicians have you mentioned Ronald Reagan, self deprecating. Humor was part of his appeal. It was part of his approach to political communication other any other politicians that you look at and say, they're not bad. I know Bama would like to be in that pantheon because I know he took his White House correspondent association dinner bits very seriously. So did Clinton guest. I mean, they rehearsed them they had writers. And I thought was George Bush was much funnier than people give him credit for it who has no sense of humor. Jerry, Brown, the California Mike God. He's got the sense of humor of an N table is is I was on a show with them. And it was when he was out of office. And we were it was one of those election shows where they do coverage coverage coverage, and then commentary, and they had me and Jackie spire and Jerry Brown and somebody else in other pundit. And they would I would just do the joke. You know, and everybody had five minutes and Jerry was upset because he couldn't get his his. And I said, dude, we're just dancing monkeys here. And he said, you're right. We are dancing monkeys and he got up and left. Jerry brown. Not intend to be dancing. Which probably good for politician. Probably. So probably so let me ask you this because George Carlin has a bit. You know, people come up to me. Did you always want to be a comedian? Well, not in the womb. No. But right after that. Yes. How soon did, you know people ask me all the time? When you want to be a journalist, I knew about age thirteen this thing. I wanted do see if I could make in Washington win did that idea come to you as something not just to enjoy. I like to laugh I like to hear people make me laugh, but I want to do that as a life's work. Well, my MAs says when I was six years old. I asked her where I could go to school to become a stand up comedian. I you said that I don't remember which is I went to you WM university. Wisconsin Milwaukee I had to leave because comedy is legal in Milwaukee. So that's why ended up in San Francisco true, right because of a bizarre licensing law when they when they wrote the entertainment licenses back in the nineteen fifties. And it's funny because you always have to say nineteen fifties. Instead of just the fifties. But. Comics were MC's for strippers. So they were written under the same license. So to this day in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, if you want to charge money for stand up comedy show, you have to buy a nude, dancing license and trust me. Nobody wants to see comics Newt. Did you ever carry a new dancing license along with your club? Would have to buy not the comic. The audition for that. The club have to buy it. Hundred bucks back in nineteen eighty. It was fifteen so today, I don't know. But you could you could pay fifty dollars class b joint loosens and get have Woody Herman in the thundering herd, which is another incredibly ancient reference. He was from Malaki. So I always try to promote its right? And the forty seconds before our next break was there ever time or dissected when you were doing up thing that you said, it's not working. I gotta do something. Or did you never waver from doing this work? I was too dim to give failure any recognition. I just kept moving on. Yeah. Because you know, you do anything long of you either get good at it. Or they tell you to stop or both. Well, talk is telling me we've got to get to another breaks. We'll stop briefly will special guest undisclosed location here in midtown. Matt live audience. You're listening to the takeout. We'll back. Minute. From CBS news. This is the takeout with major Garrett that me were in midtown Manhattan getting to travel a little bit for the takeout. Undisclosed location but alive audience, very appreciative, one radio station owners across the country. We're very happy to be here doing the show or their approval and possible. Something else, our guests will Durst great American stand up comedian satirist satirists, look it up folks not that orange thing satirist up in compared favorably. And you can't be any other way compared favorably to Mark Twain and mort Saul. That's good company will Durst. No, I beg compared not favorably to those. One thing. I want to mention we don't always do this one thing. I wanna mention as I wrote a book called Mr. Trump's wild ride those audience, CBS radio station and podcast. If you are curious about this time in American politics. What has happened? What is the what are the legacy making items already the Trump presidency? I highly recommend you purchase the book. Don't believe me believe with the Washington Post, which it is review said Mr. Trump's wild ride is excellent journalism a first draft of our current history. Available at all great internet booksellers and bookstores close to you a great holiday bye. That's my commercial for noble. It's my privilege to do that. Because I'm the host. Exactly. Barnes and noble. Will you know, the answer to that? We also have takeout podcast stickers signed by me, and for those of you who send in your self addressed stamped envelope. We'll send you a takeout podcast magnet new part of the swag material for the takeout. How do you do that? Well, your very own takeout podcast sticker and magnet signed by me, both send your request along with a self address stamped envelope. Remember, that's very seventies. Technology self address stand envelope to take out sticker care of CBS news at twenty twenty m street northwest, Washington DC two zero zero three six that's how I got my Dakota rings, well, self addressed stamped envelope. We don't take any. Text messages. No facebook. What you gotta do some work and spend a little money if he wasn't his viable product or way, make a makeup deal with captain crunch. Either way either way so will tell us a little bit because you're going to be running for this week, but it will probably run elsewhere. You're gonna take elsewhere going back to California with go back to California jersey case scenario, what is the show. What's the concept? What's the payoff? It's just jokes. There's no heavier content. It it's just me mocking and Scoffing and taunting hopefully would taste. A modicum and too much not too much taste now. I get to do it in San Francisco, which is a bizarre, Tom because I'm from Wisconsin. So I go back to scancen mckearney pinko or at bastard. But in San Francisco, the best ways all the best way. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a socialist to San Francisco, they are quite mad. They are that town. It's it's not a city. It's a it's a pageant San Francisco's a forty nine square mouth circus in search of tent. There you go. We're Halloween is redundant. I want to ask you something about we talked a little bit before about the taste of your audience comedic expectations. And I want to ask you about something. I've watched happened to comedy. And the reason I bring it up is it was part of a conversation set in motion by Donald Trump on the campaign trail. I watched this many times he would say. We become too politically. Correct people interpret that different with differently, and it means different things to different people. But it seems to me that there is less latitude for the kind of either ethnic humor or other kinds of humor that were much more common in the fifties. And sixties is that a bad thing? A good thing too sensitive or to sensitized about those things. Do you find areas of comedy sort of restricted or no access that used to be there before we lose anything in that process? Yeah. I think there's a joke that I do, and I got banned got me banned in Berkeley, I can't work Berkeley anymore and in Berkeley and in Berkeley that's going to be the title of my album. And and the the joke is about San Francisco, and you know, how we're so scared right now because we think there might be a civil war, and especially frightening because the other side has all the guns, but we have all the lesbian. So I think it evens out and I got took on bridge. At that joke, and I get banned from this club. And I don't care. I used to care. I don't care anymore is anything lost in that sense that certain humor is off limits ethic or otherwise read your audience, I belong to that journalistic credo where you afflict the comfortable and you comfort the afflicted. So you'll each punch up. You don't make fun of people who are less fortunate than you. And I think that's what the whole political correctness and it's a pendulum swings right now. It political correctness means that you don't make fun of people who have it worse than you. You know? Of course, it's advertise. Go we have militant people, you know, militant everybody, and and like militant vegans who will punch you right in the face doesn't hurt. But it doesn't hurt. Right. Exactly. See, and that's politically incorrect. I really looking forward to meeting my first militant visa. I haven't haven't quite yet. I think it's so funny in San Francisco there every four years they always propose that we hold the host the Olympics in the bay. You never have the Olympics in the bay area. There would be no winners. Just participants. You know, no ceremonies though, anthem. Dash that'd be given to the person equally weighted between the runners time and three page essay detailing man's inhumanity to this low right there, we go. So people ask me this at the end of a busy workday. Do you come home and watch more television news, my answer? No. I don't I need to take a break when you're done or when you're taking a respite from either touring or during your show. Do you watch other comedians or do you do something else completely separate from that life? Now, I'm all I'm all periodical, and magazines and cable news until I go on vacation. And then on my -cation. I sit by the pool have waitresses bring me, cold, beer and read mystery novels. That's my idea of occasion, you know, my wife, and I are low older, and we just relax. I'm not into the repelling down the inside of an act of volcano vacation. That's adventurous when it. -cation sit venture to me as is cable TV without HBO. That's roughing it to you watch other comedians. I don't I don't and one of the reasons is because I'm a sponge, I will I will see something on TV and months later it will bubble up. And I'm not sure if it's my line, or, you know, a bastardisation of somebody else's line. And also the rivers that sometimes because I'm ubiquitous on the internet. I'm all over the place, and some of the writers on these shows are sharks, and they don't care where they and I've seen I watched the show and I've seen my line on that show. And I know it was so specific about it was about Dick Cheney being so evil that he would detaches jaw and swallow George Bush whole, and that line was, and I know it was mind that that's not something to people. And so I would approach it differently onstage. Once I realized that someone might have seen it on that show. Oh, and they would have thought that I was ripping off even though I knew I wrote it I would approach it without the same confidence right sharks? In the comedic world. Not a revelation to me or audience Durst, our special guest liquors would. That's right. That concludes its out. We'll see next week undisclosed location midtown Manhattan the live audience. You can applaud you've had Wally sciences. Thank you. See next week for more from this week's conversation. Download the takeout outtake espec- out Tuesday morning. Wherever you listen to your podcasts. The takeout is produced by Arden Faren, Kateyana Janko and Jamie Benson CBS end production. By Alexander layer guile and Eric SU sonic, follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, at takeout podcast. That's at takeout podcast and for more, visit takeout podcast dot com. The takeout is a production of CBS News Radio.

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4 - Episode 4: Turn It Off

Bag Man

38:45 min | 2 years ago

4 - Episode 4: Turn It Off

"This is w Clements down saying. I feel healthy. I feel happy. I feel true Riddick w Clement stone wasn't eccentric self-made millionaire business tycoon who transforms himself from insurance salesman into a power of positive thinking self help. Guru. I love all my fellow men. I love everyone of you. And it's my sincere prayer. That you respond and learn how to help yourself by learning the art of motivation. W Clement stone, look sort of the way that he sounds. He had a pencil thin mustache. She was always immaculately dressed in a bow tie and vest. Sometimes a big cigar? He wasn't ostentatiously wealthy millionaire who wanted you to be a millionaire to and the way you could do it was by purchasing his motivational records. The sounds of success. The combined group of present the sound of success. W Clement stone's patented self help. You can be rich to mantra was p m a positive mental attitude. In the fall of nineteen Seventy-three. He came to the rescue of a man whose mental attitude at whose life in general had suddenly become something quite less than positive. Good evening for the first time in American history. A grand jury today began hearing evidence which could link a vice president to criminal charges. The federal prosecutor's office in Baltimore began in strict secrecy, the presentation of evidence concerning Spiro Agnew. Vice president Spiro Agnew was facing the prospect of a federal indictment on bribery, and extortion charges and what John chancellor said. There was right nothing like that had ever happened before in US history. And in that darkest hour the man who rode to the rescue of the vice president was w Clement stone that fall of nineteen Seventy-three with the possible indictment of the vice president looming stone set up the official Spiro t Agnew legal defense fund in a slightly over the top press release. He described how honored he was to start accepting donations from average Americans on behalf of the vice president he s. Baited that Agnew's defense bills could reach a half million dollars, and after setting up a nationwide phone Bank to start taking in those donations from across the country w Clement stone by the end of that first week at raked in all of about three hundred bucks. It didn't work. But Spiro Agnew did like having celebrity friends like w Clement stone. Frank Sinatra also came to his aid Sinatra hit up his friends to give money to add new one friend of Sinatra's reportedly told him in response. Look, we don't give a damn about Agnew. But if you want some money, Frank, we'll give it to you. The truth was Spiro Agnew. Really did need the money. He had hired this team of big name lawyers. Who were waging an aggressive battle in the courts to try to keep him out of jail. He also had his PR strategy at that point which was to throw the kitchen sink at his own Justice department to attack the prosecutors as biased that was the strategy that was happening out loud in public. So you could see it. But there was also his strategy that was hidden from public view hidden then and hidden for years after that was the one Spiro Agnew had been waging secretly from the very beginning. It was a coordinated effort to obstruct Justice to use the power of his position in the White House to block that investigation to shut it down before it closed in on him. And that story the story of that secret obstruction efforts it hasn't even been known to the prosecutors who were investigating Agnew at the time. They are about to hear it here for the first time. You're listening to back, man. I'm your host, Rachel. For the first time in the history of grand jury began hearing evidence which could link vice-president. HR? Here's a publication of this stuff that finish the that's the kind of classic crap that we feared might happen. Forty five years later. My blood still boils. Episode four turn it off. This is an actual transfers chase recorded conversation. Oh, oh my God. This is you've heard from Barney Skolnick before he was the senior prosecutor at the US attorney's office in Baltimore in the spring of nineteen Seventy-three what he's reacting to here is a transcript of a conversation that he has never seen before my producer Mike yard gave him a copy his investigation going on Maryland has Bob for helping turning it off. Okay. Well, these are fun more don't get my juices flowing. I mean to finish it. In the spring of nineteen Seventy-three this team of young federal prosecutors in Baltimore led by Barney Skolnick, they were hot on Spiro Agnew trail. Agnew had been the governor of Maryland before becoming vice president he'd been Baltimore County executive before that and what this team of prosecutors had just discovered is that throughout his time in government Spiro Agnew had been a crook. He was a shakedown artist. He had been extorting money from government contractors for years demanding payoffs, accepting envelopes, stuffed with cash it all started back when he was first elected in Maryland politics, but it continued right through his time as vice president. It was cash delivered to him usually through a bag man in exchange for government contracts that he controlled. And in early nineteen seventy three when Spiro Agnew. I learned that there was some investigation going on back in Maryland. He started taking actions almost immediately to try to make that investigation. Go away. What we know about this secret effort from within the White House to interfere with that ongoing investigation. We know about because there are tapes. Richard Nixon secret White House recording system famously led to his own demise as president, but the tapes from that recording system also picked up hours of conversations about this investigation in Maryland that was closing in on the vice president. In April nineteen Seventy-three vice president Agnew. I heard that one of his co conspirators man named Jerry Wolf was on the radar. Prosecutors ferry Wolff who's another one of these guys became sterile on his lawyer's office. We were later told and was screaming in the hall about you know, he's gonna take everybody down. You know, he was it was terrible pressure. Jerry Wolf had been a really big part of Agnew's bribery scheme. He got a cut of the payoffs himself. He knew all about what acne was doing. And when Agnew learn that Jerry Wolf was about to be questioned by prosecutors. He went to one of president Nixon's closest aides White House chief of staff h r Haldeman for help Wednesday tenth president got me in first thing this morning, what you're hearing right now is an audio diary that Bob Haldeman kept during his time as Nixon's White House chief of staff, here's what he recorded. That night about a conversation. He'd had with Agnew that day. Vice-president Komi over today and said he had a real problem because Jerry Wolf who used to work for him. Back in Maryland. And then he brought him to Washington with him about to be called by the US attorney up there, who's busting open campaign contribution cases and kickbacks to contractors. It seems that we'll verbatim records of meetings with vice president and others back over the years Agnew tells the White House chief of staff that this guy who's now under scrutiny by prosecutors. He kept verbatim notes of all his meetings. Adnew clearly knew that Jerry Wolf was a really dangerous witness if he squealed he could potentially unravel the whole thing what wanted h r Haldeman to do about. This threat was help him. Stop the prosecutors now in order to understand what you're about to hear on these tapes. There's one other character that you need to know about the US attorney in Maryland who is leading that investigation was someone we've talked about a lot Republican US attorney named George bell. He oversaw that team of federal prosecutors. He also came from a family that was basically Republican royalty in Maryland. Part of the reason that he was Republican loyalty was at the time that George bell was leading this investigation out of the. US attorney's office. His older brother was a sitting US Senator from Maryland. Republican Senator Glen bell United States is strongest free country on the face of the earth. And since we are that we are interested in promoting Spiro Agnew and the Nixon White House. They thought that Glen bell. The Senator would be there key to making this entire investigation. Go away the made the point that. George bell. Who's Glenn bells brother is the attorney there? And then if Clinton go talk to him he could straighten it out vice presidents tried to get him to. But apparently, not successfully. So he wanted me to talk, which of course, I won't do. In order to. Verify White House awareness concern. He. Feels publication of this stuff would finish the VP because was with him for so long. If you're ever trying to explain the concept of obstruction of Justice to a second grader. This would be a good case study. The vice president believes that what this witness will say could finish him. He tries to get the White House to stop the prosecutor from questioning that witness by pressuring the prosecutor through his family. It is an overt spelled out effort to use political power and political leverage to shut down. This potent criminal case. That said if it was just a failed effort if this had ended there at that conversation with h r Haldeman and held him and saying he wouldn't do it. Then you could maybe just chalk it up to the vice president blowing off steam having obstructionist inclinations, but it didn't stop at that conversation. Bob Haldeman didn't agree to pressure Senator Glen bell himself, but he did related that request from Agnew to another top. Nixon aide John airlock men, and then three days later Ehrlichman was discussing it with president Nixon in the Oval Office. Now, don't worry about picking up every word here. I will sum up the gist of what you're about to hear the first foist. You're going to hear is John Airlec Mun, and the voice you're gonna hear in the background is president, Richard Nixon. Your vice president has problems of his own Ehrlichman tells Nixon. What you're going to hear next is Nixon asking if this has something to do with Watergate Ehrlichman than has to correct him. Get him up to speed to let him know that. This is ABC News own totally separate scandal. There's an investigation going on in Maryland. And he asked Bob for help in turning it off. And again, if it just stopped right there, if Nixon Ehrlichman and Haldeman all said Agnew is trying to get us to interfere with this investigation. But we obviously can't do that. If it had stopped right there. Then maybe, but it didn't stop there days later Agnew himself was in the Oval Office putting a plan in place with the president himself to obstruct. This investigation to shut it down the tape. You're about to hear now is a little bit rough. Don't worry about picking up every word what you'll hear? I is Agnew venting to president Nixon in the Oval Office about that US attorney in Maryland, George bell who's been digging into the county where Agnew got his start. News complaining here about this US attorney, George bell. And what Nixon immediately moves to is. Who is this US attorney? And what can we do about it? Listen. Is he a good boy? That's what Nixon asks Agnew. Why the hell did we appoint him? What the two men then start putting together is a plan to start pressuring George bell to stop this investigation. What you'll hear in this next clip is Agnew. I talking about all the IRS agents who have been assigned to the case, and then Nixon and Agnew talk about getting to George bell getting to the prosecutor through his brother, Republican Senator Glen bell. What you heard Nixon say at the end. There is we helped Glen bell berry that in nineteen seventy. That was actually the key. Here. Senator Glen bell road, the Nixon White House because Nixon and helped him get elected the father of George bell Glen bell had previously held that US Senate seat in Maryland. But a democrat had beaten him and take in the seat in nineteen sixty four when that seat came up again in nineteen seventy Nixon and Agnew helped the bell family avenged that loss and take back that seat in the US Senate. I think we have. A candidate and Glen bell that we can be extremely proud of. And it worked the Republican party got that Senate seat in Maryland back, but so did the bell family. And now one of the bell sons was going to try to destroy Spiro Agnew with this investigation. No, Nixon Agnew decided. No now, it was time for Senator Glen bell to return the favor and shutdown. His little brother Agnew goes on in that conversation to bring up a potential witness who might tell prosecutors that he came to the White House to hand Agnew an envelope. Full of cash. Agnew says that claim would be totally ridiculous. But listen to how Nixon response to that to this idea of a witness who could incriminate Agnew inside the White House. Listen to the very end of this. Did you hear Nixon at the end there? He says about this witness. Can we destroy him? So what the president and the vice president are discussing in the Oval Office at this point is number one how they can get a US attorney to shutdown ongoing investigation of the vice president and number two how they might destroy any witnesses who might try to come forward with information on the vice president. But there's one more piece of this conversation. I wanna play what they're talking about. Here is instructing the US attorney George bell specifically to fire the main prosecutor working on the case Barney Skolnick. Brother realize? Get this thing over with and get this guy Skolnick who's a musky volunteer the hell out of his office. So and the investigation now and fire the lead investigator from the case Barney, skull, Nick, he's a democrat. That was June nineteen Seventy-three fast forward a little more than a year. Nixon resigns after the revelation of his role in obstructing the investigation into Watergate, the first article of impeachment drawn up against Nixon was obstruction of Justice for his role and trying to cover up that scandal. But what we can now hear on. These tapes is a robust obstruction effort by Nixon and Agnew, totally separate from Watergate. It's Richard Nixon hearing about an investigation into his vice president and saying how do we go about shutting this down? How do we use the power of the White House to force the prosecutors to drop the case, how do we destroy witnesses? That might come forward. And they weren't just musing about doing this. They did it. That's next. Hey, it's Chris as from MSNBC every day. I come to the office, and we make television show every day. I think to myself there's so much more. I want to talk about and so this is our podcast. It's called why is this happening in the whole idea behind it is to get to the root of the things that we see out every day. They're driven by being ideas. Each week. I sit down with a person uniquely suited to explain why this is happening. New episodes of why is this happening every Tuesday? Listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Monday, April thirtieth. Resignation day in April nineteen Seventy-three. Richard Nixon's White House chief of staff h r Haldeman suddenly resigned over his role in Watergate when he did the man Nixon named as his replacement. His new chief of staff was general al-hail press Secretary, Ron Ziegler said general, Hague's appointment isn't interim one, but he said, hey, already is on the job carrying out most of the duties h r Haldeman used to perform when L Hague took over that job. One of those duties that he inherited was a White House plan that was already inaction to obstruct. And try to shut down a criminal investigation of the Vice President Al Haig took the job and didn't miss a beat. Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew had come up with a plan to get to George bell. The US attorney leading that investigation, and they would get to him through his brother Republican US Senator named Glen bell. It was Hague's job to make that happen. And again, we know that because there are tapes like this one where you can hear Nixon and Hague in the Oval Office putting together a plan to have a White House advisor named Mel layered be the middleman now the tape. Here's a little rough. But you'll hear Nixon trying to figure out with. Hey, how to do this secretly how to do this in a way where Nixon's fingerprints weren't on? It Nixon starts here by saying. I think you better talk to Mel. Nixon says there I can't have it put out that. I was trying to fix the case. And Hage says no, no, you cannot do this. Al Haig, then lays out what exactly they want? This Senator Glen bell to do for them. If Glen bell can get his brother who's the US attorney who we appointed who's a Republican. But he's turned this thing over to to fanatical prosecutors if he just sits in on them and supervises this. In other words, what US attorney George bell needs to do is sit in on these fanatical prosecutors in his office who are taking this investigation to places. We don't want it to go Nixon and Haig are devising this plan in secret to interfere with this ongoing investigation. They then start putting this plan into action. But the middleman they end up using the guy who they drag into this obstruction scheme. Ultimately isn't Mel layered who they end up using for this obstruction effort is the chairman of the Republican National Committee at the time a man by the name of George Herbert Walker Bush. The future president of the United States. George Bush gets enlisted in this effort to reach out to Senator Glen bell to have him pressure. His brother to shut down this investigation. Listen to this phone call between Richard Nixon, and El Hage, the audio here is a little bit distorted, but the first voice here is Nixon and he's talking to. Hey, about enemies of the White House who are now going after everybody. But I don't be there. Very little. Here or. Through. I did it through George Bush on the first run. This didn't ever stick to George H W Bush, maybe because these audiotapes have just been collecting dust for the last four decades. But George Bush was brought in to a potentially criminal effort organized and directed by then president of the United States, Richard Nixon to obstruct an ongoing investigation into his vice president and George Bush. Did it? US attorney George bell ended up donating his papers to Frostburg state university in Maryland. And if you go to those archives, you can now see an official memo to file that US attorney George bell wrote that summer of nineteen Seventy-three. In that memo to file it is made quite clear that after the White House came up with this plan, George H W Bush did infact contact US Senator Glen bell. And he tried to have Senator Glen bell get word his little brother, the US attorney about this investigation. This is what he wrote in the file. With respect to conversations with my brother, Glenn, the discussions were most superficial and very guarded. He occasionally mentioned to me, the names of persons who had been to see him or who had called him with respect to this investigation names of persons that I remember him telling me about included vice president Agnew and George Bush. Now, there are a few amazing things here. I of course, is that a future US president participated in what was likely a criminal scheme to obstruct Justice. But there's also the fact that Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew would even attempt. This sort of thing in the climate of Watergate that they were in. This was the summer of nineteen Seventy-three the Senate Watergate hearings were on TV every day. The Watergate cover up was starting to unravel around Richard Nixon Nixon had just fired his chief of staff h r Haldeman his White House counsel. John dean, his attorney General Richard Kleindienst, his top domestic age on Airlec men. It was all supposedly to clean house from the Watergate mess, but right, then at the same time Nixon and Agnew decided to undertake a whole separate effort to interfere with a totally unrelated investigation into Agnew. And the final amazing thing here is that the Baltimore federal prosecutors were building this case against Agnew at the time, which Agnew Nixon were actively trying to shut down. They have never known. On about any of this forty five years later. This is all brand new to them. This is an actual transfers recorded conversation. Oh, that's Barney skull. Nick, the lead prosecutor on the team. Remember that audio diary from HR Haldeman vice-president Komi over today and said he had a real problem. Here's Barney school Nick learning about that recording for the first time. Oh, he had an audio diary Jesus. He made the point that George Bill whose Glenn bells brother is the attorney there. And that if Bo talked he could straighten it out if Glen bell would talk to George he could straighten it out. Yeah. Well, you you will reaction to this. I mean, you know, it's exactly what you would think. That's the kind of classic crap that we feared might happen is is, you know, somebody like Agnew going to somebody like old him into go to somebody like Glen bell. I mean, that's you know, that's the. What our president calls the swamp? I mean, that's you know, that's the swamp, you know, in operation, but you didn't know at the time that it wasn't ration-. No. Well, I mean, we knew we had some sense as the whole country did of what kind of administration Nixon with Haldeman and all Erlich men, and so on we're running, but we had no we had no knowledge that this was happening. Here's Ron Liebman. Another one of the Baltimore. Prosecutors seeing Nixon on tape here talking about destroying a potential witness in their case. Can we destroy him? Forty five years later in my blood still boils. Like that that conversation between Nixon and Agnew in the Oval Office. Also, included them strategizing about how to pressure Senator Glen bell. This is this is the Nixon White House. This is what they did. Across the board. I mean, what is your lawyer? What does that look like? Clearly structured adjusts tenth struck Justice. Clearly, if you had known about that at the time would obstruction have been something in your mind in terms of you bet you bet sure I think I think. I don't think it would have been very difficult at all to start investigating obstruction of Justice. If we had known about this. Here's Tim Baker. He was the third prosecutor on the team Tim Baker himself is referenced in one of those conversations as one of the fanatical prosecutors that's taking this investigation in a direction. They didn't want it to go. To fanatical processors. Funny. Well, we were I'm a fanatical. Boy, once once we thought he was guilty. Then we were. We were really focused on we were going to we were going to do this. We're going to get this guy out of there and more. Tim Baker wasn't the only one of the prosecutors referenced directly in these tapes, remember that conversation between Nixon and Agnew about getting the lead. Prosecutor Barney Skolnick thrown off the case Barney Skolnick himself never had any idea about that. Oh is my name. And I knew said my name. Oh, joy get this thing over with and get this guy's gone. Who's a musky volunteer the hell out of this office? Oh, man. You gotta give me a copy of this. Oh, wow. Makes my whole life. Oh, that's beautiful. Get him the hell out of this office. Oh, thank you. My man. This is so beautiful. Michael. You really have you really have. This. This doesn't just make my day. This makes my decade get this guy's Golic was Muskie volunteer the hell out of this office. These prosecutors who are now reading through these conversations for the very first time their emotions about this case what they're seeing forty five years later. It's all still very much on the surface for them. It makes you skin crawl doesn't. It really makes your skin crawl even forty five years later with all the stuff that we have come across in terms of public eruption. He's still makes your skin crawl. This is a centrally somebody under investigation going to thority in this case happens to be the president to say not just stop the investigation, but get a prosecutor fired for no apparent reason. Other than he's running the investigation. That's obviously a legal and obstruction of Justice and to have political pressure. Put on the lead prosecutor George to to stop the investigation. Again, for no discernible reason. I mean, you know, stop the investigation because statute of limitations has run or, you know, fill in the blank, some legitimate reason. But this is stop it because I wanted stop because I am exposed to possible criminal prosecution, obviously, that's obstruction of Justice. I mean, all of these conversations are if not literally illegal, they are certainly suggesting that illegal things be done. So it's remarkable for us to realize that the prosecutors have never known about any of this until now it's amazing to hear them reacting to it for the first time. But the reason they never knew about it until now is not just amazing in a sense, it sort of heroin think about what this says what this means about their boss, George bell. The Republican US attorney who was overseeing their investigation that coordinated obstruction effort launched by Spiro Agnew and carried out by Richard Nixon. And the whole machinery of the White House, and the Republican party that plan was actually carried out as intended people close to Richard Nixon, including George H W Bush did in fact, push this Senator who may have owed his seat to the White House. They pushed Senator Glen bell to try to influence this investigation Spiro Agnew himself. Personally, lobbied Senator Glen bell over and over again Agnew's records and papers are now held at the university of Maryland. What you find? When you go through those papers as we did our multiple face to face meetings that Agnew himself held in his office with Senator Glen bell. It's all right there in his notes and his daily calendars. This effort to get to that Senator to get them to help them shut down this investigation that his little brother was running plan was put into place, and the first part of it worked Senator Glen bell himself took all of that pressure that he was getting and he did in fact reach out his little brother, George about it in that same memo to file on his papers in the Frostburg. State archive. George says his older brother related to him expressions of concern from George Bush and Agnew and others. His Senator brother was contacting him telling him about all the powerful and important people in Washington who'd been in touch with him concerned about Georgia's investigation. The obstruction effort got to George belt, and George bell memorialize that pressure that he was getting for the record for history, but he stopped there. We now know he never wants passed a word of any of it along the his team of young federal prosecutors just quietly working that case. There wasn't any moment in which the George hesitated. At all Joyce, never to me as far as I know to my colleagues, never once said anything like, hey, you know, my brother called, and he says this is really causing a problem. Really sure about this. Do we really wanna do this nothing like that ever ever happened? It was never any that only. Was there never any specific information along those lines? But there was never any indirect indication from the way George spoke to us that any anything his brother had said to him had any effect. Wanted to George Dewey didn't do if that had happened. There would have been the new the mutinies on the part of Tim Barnea. They would have been a world-class mutant. But it wouldn't have happened because there's no way that our boss to expel would come near. Hundred percent. U S attorney George bell was all of thirty five years old at the time. He was a Republican on the rise in Maryland. He had his whole career in Republican politics ahead of him. But he refused to bow to that pressure. That was coming right at him from this Republican White House through his direct family this coordinated obstruction effort that involved vice president Agnew, president Nixon, h r Haldeman John Ehrlichman, Al Haig, George Bush this coordinated effort to shut down an investigation into the sitting vice president it failed and it failed because this Republican US attorney was in a position of responsibility. He had this investigation to pursue. And he never wants blinked. And so what happened next when that obstruction effort failed because of him? Richard Nixon had been actively trying to interfere with this investigation on behalf of his vice president. But when that effort failed Nixon was more than willing to turn on Adnew in order to save himself. And that is when things went totally off the rails to the point where Spiro Agnew actually believed that Richard Nixon might be plotting to have him killed. That you were actually fearful that if you're do not go along president Nixon might have ought to do assassinated. Could you explain that? That is a real live part of this story, and that is still to come. I'm Rachel Maddow. And this is back, man. Bag man is a production of MSNBC NBC universal. This series is executive produced by Mike yards. It was written by myself and Mike Yarbrough editorial and production support from Jonathan Hirsch and Marissa's Schneiderman from neon hung media. And by the way, if you wanna see that memo to file that George bell put in his archives at Frostburg state university. We have who sit at MSNBC dot com slash bagman along with whole bunch of other materials, you might wanna see from this episode.

Richard Nixon Nixon Spiro Agnew Spiro t Agnew George bell Glen bell Senator Glen bell vice president US attorney president Agnew prosecutor White House Nixon White House president Nixon George Herbert Walker Bush Maryland US White House Senator
Policy against indicting a president 'shaky' not 'at all solid': former OLC chief

MSNBC Rachel Maddow (audio)

46:41 min | 1 year ago

Policy against indicting a president 'shaky' not 'at all solid': former OLC chief

"The way matters show. We at nine eastern on MSNBC. It's been a tremendously busy day. A federal judge today has ruled that labor secretary Alex Kosta broke the law when he was US attorney and gave a secret non-prosecution agreement to a billionaire serial child sex offender, Alex Kosta is still serving as US labor secretary as of tonight, so far the White House has had no response to that federal judges ruling today also today in that botched election in North Carolina that has resulted in there being no member of congress seated from that district. We now know how we are going to get somebody seated from that district the state elections board today unanimously ordered that a new election must be run there from scratch also today lawyers for the president's longtime adviser Roger stone put Mr. stone on the stand to explain why he put a picture online this week targeting. The federal judge who. Who's overseeing his case that judge did not jail Roger stone today, which she might have done. She did issue a strict gag order. And she warned that if stone breaks the gag order by speaking publicly about his case in any way, he will go to jail ahead of his trial. The judge told him today specifically, quote, I will find it necessary to adjust your environment. So it's been a very busy busy news day. And of course, the weather system looming over everybody's environment right now is these reports from multiple news agencies that the molar investigation may soon be producing its report. Now as always the most important thing there is that nobody really knows other than Miller and his team and they don't leak, and they don't make public comments. So nobody really knows. But the expectation that Robert Mueller is about to produce his final report those expectations are more heightened now than they have ever been. And it is in context tonight that we are bringing you this Rachel maddow's show special report. This is something that we have been working on for a while now, and it's based on documents we have obtained most of which have previously never been seen by the public. So let me just give you a little little table of contents in terms of how this is going to go tonight. First of all there's a couple of sets of documents. I'm gonna show you that are. Things that have just never before seeing the light of day or certainly never widely seen the light of day. One of them adds a previously unknown element to our understanding of a recent president. Another set of these documents adds, a fairly explosive new set of facts to what we know about an important White House scandal. So couple of sets of documents one about a recent president one about a recent relatively recent White House scandal, but where we're going to land here is on some some documents and some revelations, including one very important interview, which have direct implications for some of the thorniest questions. We are facing right now when it comes to this presidency and the potential resolution of the existential scandal that has surrounded the Trump presidency and the Trump election from the very very beginning. Is that your table of context because you get comfortable deep breath. Here comes some stuff we have really never heard about before. All right, where we are going to start tonight is October nineteen Eighty-eight just a few weeks before the nineteen eighty eight presidential election, the nineteen eighty eight presidential election, of course, was between democratic nominee. Michael dukakis? Who is the sitting governor of? Of Massachusetts, and the Republican nominee who was sitting vice president of the United States, George Herbert Walker Bush. So it was just a few weeks before that election that October when those two nominees squared off in a presidential debate debate. That would become the stuff of political legend was the final debate that year it was held in Los Angeles on the campus of UCLA and the big moment that everybody still remembers from that debate. All these years later is actually a moment that came right out of the gate came right at the top of the debate the democratic nominee. Michael Dukakis was asked right at the start of the debate. What he would do if his wife kitty were raped and murdered. Sure, Michael Dukakis had long been opposed to the death penalty. But one of his wife kitty was raped and murdered would he still be against the death penalty? Then. Michael Dukakis got that question. It was the first question of the whole debate. And I don't know exactly how you would give a right answer to that question. But this at the time was seen as not the right answer. Governor if kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered. Would you favor and irrevocable death penalty for the killer? No, I don't Bernard. And I think you know, that I've opposed the death penalty during all of my life. I don't see any evidence that it's the deterrent. And I think there are better and more effective ways to deal with violent crime. I can't hard to know what the right way is to answer that particular question, but that dispassionate calm answer from governor Dukakis that was seen at the time sort of a political disaster that was seen as they. Oh my God. He just blew the whole election kind of moment. And in fact, the Dukakis campaign did not come back after that. Last debate Dukakis had had a huge lead over George H W Bush that summer of nine hundred eight I mean, vice President Bush was vice president, but he was essentially trying to run for a third term of the Ronald Reagan presidency. And it's always hard to ask voters to give the same party three. Presidential terms in a row. Papi. Bush was also a little hamstrung by choice of a running mate. He had picked him in named Dan Quayle. It was a fairly well respected handsome, young Republican Senator to be his his vice presidential running mate. But even those Dan Quayle was like well enough as a Senator as a potential vice president he was widely seen as not ready for prime times seen as not up to the task of being heartbeat away from the presidency and in the summer of nineteen eighty eight when George H W Bush was really on the ropes when it looked like he was not going to win. It was way down in the polls. Definitely look like Dukakis was going to beat him. Summer of eighty eight. He secretly reached out to an old friend for help in trying to figure out how to come back and win that election. That debate in Los Angeles was held on October thirteenth nine hundred eight two days before the debate on October eleventh vice president George H W Bush wrote this note, check it out Ted as I head for the coast. I want you to know I got your last two letters. I think the quail attacks have not hurt long run now off to the last debate best wishes. Now, the Ted that vice president gee was writing to there was the honorable Ted Agnew Spiro Agnew. He was writing to Spiro Agnew. The disgraced convicted former vice president of the United States who had been absent from public life at that point for fifteen years since Agnew, it had to plead detaxation charges and resigned, the vice presidency in nineteen seventy three in a way that only quite narrowly avoided him going to prison. I mean two days before that key last presidential debate in Los Angeles in one thousand nine hundred eight maybe the most important moment of George Bush's political life up until that point and Bush was secretly consulting. A convicted felon for political advice. Since we released our little podcast series bagman about the amazing and mostly forgotten scandal that led to the removal of vice president Spiro Agnew from office. One of the things that's happened since we launched that that podcast series. And we got such a great response to it is that we have been able to get a hold of some new documents related to Spiro Agnew documents that we didn't have before and that haven't been publicly seen before. And they turn out to be documents that shed some light on details of modern American history that really haven't been known before documents like these previously unknown personal correspondences between George H W Bush and Spiro Agnew during the summer and fall of the nine thousand nine hundred eighty eight presidential campaign Agnew was meeting with at least one advisor to then. Vice President Bush knew was offering hints on handling the Dan Quayle attacks against Spiro Agnew at. This point was a convicted felon. He was the first vice president to resign. His office in disgrace. Everybody else in public life would run a mile. L to keep their distance from Spiro Agnew. But I mean, look at this one here was George H W Bush sitting vice president and presidential candidate during that presidential campaign writing to convicted felons Spiro Agnew quote. I'd love to have a paper from you with any suggestions you'd care to make. I welcome such a paper. I really would. This was him. Asking for written advice from Abdu on how Bush could best plan his campaign to beat Dukakis. And it's not like George Bush was naive or ignorant about Spiro Agnew past. As we found in back men. Poppy Bush was the Republican party chairman at the time of the scandal. He was brought into what looks very much like a criminal obstruction of Justice scheme orchestrated by the Nixon White House to try to pressure. The federal prosecutors who are working on the Adnew case that they should drop the case. I mean, George H W Bush was personally in on that he was part of that scheme. He knew exactly what had gone down with Agnew. But thanks to these documents that we have now obtained we can now see that Bush kept up this. If you SUV secret back channel communication with Agnew for years after that, including right through his own thousand nine hundred eight presidential campaign. So that Bush Agnew correspondence. I think is is basically a new piece of presidential and presidential campaign history. Which is worth knowing about pappy Bush in the nineteen Eighty-eight campaign worth knowing about Agnew, especially in light of Agnew's disgracing the way he was removed from office. But I tell you that in part to lay the groundwork for some of the other stuff that we have obtained in the course of the bagman research and thereafter. We have also obtained some other materials that don't just give us an interesting new footnote in presidential history. These are materials that I think are just simply pretty explosive. So let me just show you what we got what you are looking at here is a telegram telex that was sent in one thousand nine hundred eighty and as you can see at the bottom of the telex telex telegram that was sent by Spiro Agnew, former vice president of the United States, and in terms of the timeline here, you'll recall Agnew resigned. The vice presidency in nineteen Seventy-three. So this is a telegram. He was sending seven years later in one thousand nine hundred eighty when he was a private citizen, and he sent this message to as you can see his excellently his cues me his excellency. Ahmad Abdul will hop chief of Royal protocol kingdom of Saudi Arabia. What Spiro Agnew was asking. For in this telegram. He wrote to the Saudi kingdom. Was something very specific. He wanted an audience with the Saudi Crown prince at the time Agnew wrote quote. It would be deeply appreciated if your excellency could if your excellency could arrange for me to have an audience with his Royal highness prince Fahd as soon as possible the matter to be discussed involves a personal emergency that is of critical importance to me. So this is former vice president Spiro Agnew writing to the chief of protocol of the Saudi Royal family in one thousand nine hundred saying I need to meet with the crown prince on something that is of critical importance personal emergency. Agnew says in this telex quote in the past his Royal highness has shirt me that he would be available. Should I need to see him? So this is a former vice president basically calling in a Chit of some kind. He once told me I could call on him if ever needed help them. Well, now, I need help what Agnew gets back in response to this telegram is this to his excellency Spiro Agnew read, your telex in which you have expressed your wish to have an audience with his Royal highness prince Fahd stop we can arrange for you to have an audience with his Royal highness on August, fifteenth regards. So then we get Agnew's response back to that telex back to the Saudi protocol. Chief, quote, I am very pleased to accept your kind offer to arrange an audience with his Royal highness prince Fahd on August fifteenth. So this is ABC News saying, okay, I'll be there, quote, please advise time and location when available so America's relationship with Saudi Arabia is complicated. Even in the best of times. Right. I mean think about what we're in right now as we speak the US Saudi relationship right now revolves around among other things a suspected illicit relationship between the Saudi Royal family and the National Enquirer, which is headed up by the president's longtime friend, David pecker questions about whether the National Enquirer might have been acting as an agent of the Saudi government when that publication went on the warpath against Amazon CEO in Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos, recently, the post has been critical of the Saudi government recently over the murder of Washington Post. Journalists mal kashogi inside a Saudi consulate Jeff Bezos has suggested that the Saudis may have retaliated against him for that coverage with an extortion and blackmail effort run out of the National Enquirer all this happening while the Trump administration continues to resist blaming the Saudi government for the murder at all. Just this week. It was announced that the Trump administration is also now being investigated by the oversight committee in congress over a secret plan to transfer highly sensitive nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia against the warnings of top national security officials and potentially against the law. This nuclear thing was a plan that several people associated with the president appear to have had a significant personal financial stake in. So the relationship between the us and Saudi Arabia has been complicated for a long time. It is still messy as all get out right now. But what we know from these documents, we've obtained is that the modern history of Saudi Arabia and presidencies in trouble might be even more complicated than we previously. Understood because what disgraced vice president Spiro Agnew wanted from that desperate plea. He was making to meet with the Saudi Crown prince that summer of nineteen eighty with this disgraced former US vice president was approaching Saudi Arabia about and asking for. Sort of breathtaking, but we're going to show you. Spiro Agnew was writing to the Saudi Royal family to solicit their help their financial support for him to lead a scorched earth propaganda campaign in the United States to expose the Jews to wage political war on Jews in America. No, really, the reason that Spiro Agnew sent that telegram asking for a meeting with the Saudi Crown prince is made clear in this draft of a letter that Agnew wrote to the crown prince just a few weeks later stated August twenty fifth nineteen eighty your highness at the request of Sheik Ahmed the protocol chief I am writing. This letter to explain the principal reasons for my urgent request to see you. Your highness is already familiar with the unremitting Zionist efforts to destroy me. During the time I was under attack from former attorney general Elliot Richardson in nineteen Seventy-three the reason for their need to drive me out with stated by Richardson several times he said that I could not be trusted to act properly in the Middle East. Therefore, I was framed and driven from office. The reason was that the Zionists in the United States knew that I would never agree to the continuance of the unfair and disastrous favoring of Israel, and they had to get me out of there. So I would not succeed Nixon since nineteen seventy four Zionists have orchestrated a well organized attack on me, the idea being to us lawsuits to bleed me of my resources to continue my effort to inform the American people of their control of the media and other influential sectors of American society. I'm sure that one of the lawsuits Agnew was then dealing with was encouraged by the banana breath. In conjunction with the publication of my book. I've taken every opportunity to speak out against the catastrophic US policies regarding Israel. This has spurred my Zionist enemy's onto greater efforts. I need desperately or financial support. So that I can continue to fight. Former vice president than asks the Saudi Crown prince to put two million dollars in a secret Swiss Bank account for him from which Agnew would live off the interest. And it would all be untraceable to Saudi Arabia. Coat if your Highness's willing to help me, but this method is not suitable. I would be grateful grateful for any other idea that would give me about two hundred thousand dollars a year for the next three years. I do so want to continue my fight against the Zionist enemies who are destroying my once great nation. And here's here's my favorite part. This is the way that Agnew signs off this letter to the Saudi Crown prince he says, quote, my congratulations to your highness on the clear and courageous call to jihad. Designers have me a most difficult position. And I need help urgently without delay with great respect and warm, personal regards. I am respectfully Spiro Agnew the jihad. Congratulations reference, there appears to be a reference to the fact that the Saudi Crown prince just days earlier had publicly called for a holy war against Israel. So congratulations on that. From the American vice president. I mean, just to be clear. This is a former American vice president writing to a foreign government asking for their help in fighting Jews in America because the Jews framed him, and it's the Jews who are destroying America. And he'll lead the fight against the Jews for the low low price of two hundred thousand dollars a year in secret funding from the Saudi Royal family. And on the one end. Okay. This is what became old Spiro Agnew after. He was forced out of office. He became mired in legal battles and lawsuits, and he was constantly looking to drum up money and support in all kinds of ways, including this. On the other hand. This is the former American vice president approaching the Saudi government behind the scenes and saying help me wage war on the Jews in America. Which is exactly as it. Sounds. But it gets worse because you should also know that the correspondence that we have obtained here suggest that the Saudi government appears to have done it. Again, Spiro Agnew was asking for a two million dollar loan to be parked in a Bank somewhere. And then he was gonna live off the interest. Or maybe there was some other way he could take in about two hundred grand grand a year. Well about a month after he sent that urgent requests for financial support to the Saudi Crown prince give me money to fight the Jews. Look about a month later look at this Agnew drafted. Another letter thanking the Saudi Crown prince apparently coming through for him with the funds, quote, it is difficult for me to find the right words to adequately express my gratitude for the prompt response from your highness to my urgent communication. I am now in a position to meet my obligations for about six months under the framework set forth in my letter to you. And to make clear that what he's talking about. There is money Agnew says he's also going to try to drum up some additional business in Saudi Arabia, which will quote, give me the resources to continue the battle against the scientist community here in the United States Agnew, then appears to have received a letter back from the Saudi Crown prince wishing him great success in his efforts. So okay, less than ten years out of office. A former American vice president orchestrated a secret financial deal with Saudi Arabia to fight Jews in this country. That seems like something that maybe should matter even today in what's going on between our country. And there's right. I mean is it. Okay. That the Saudis. Royal government for Royal family and government funding Agnew to do that. Back in the day. I mean, it tells you something about Agnew. But it also tells you something about the Royal family as well, which is the same family. That's in charge now. We came into possession of these documents after they were uncovered by a historical document collector named Greg Schneider. He then shared them with us after we obtained the documents from Mr. Schneider and did our own due diligence authenticating them, we then consulted the great Michael Beschloss NBC's. Presidential historian who told us he thinks that these letters? These documents have never been known about publicly before. So like, I said the reporting we did for bag men has yielded some unexpected stuff. But as promised there is something else, we turned up in reporting this story that has quite direct implications for today, maybe even for this week and specifically for the no quite pressing question of how exactly the investigation into the current president might end specifically the question of whether the president could be indicted, and that is still stay with us. Rudy Giuliani was feeling on top of the world. It was may of last year is a little less than a year ago. Rudy Giuliani just gotten some news that for him one of the lawyers for President Donald Trump for him. It was like winning the Super Bowl and the way, you know, he felt like he had just won the Super Bowl was because he went around and talked to every single news outlet. He could find about it. And he was characterized on message with every one of them. Here's how NBC news reported at that day Muller doesn't plan to indict Trump because of DOJ rules Giuliani says it was the CNN headline Giuliani Muller's team told Trump's lawyers. They can't indict a president. This was the New York Times Muller won't indict Trump. If he finds wrongdoing Giuliani says a hat, Trump can be cannot be indicted game set and match right and Giuliani. Just went out to scream it from the rooftops. This is what he told to great reporters. Halley Jackson and Kirsten Welker. We're here at NBC news. That quote, the special counsel's office acknowledges the fact that they cannot indict us Giuliani told them BBC news on Wednesday. They know they don't have that power. So their function is to write a report, we would like it to be the fairest report possible. But even if it isn't we're prepared to rebut it in great detail. So we'd like them to do it. He said, quote, it's as clear as can be that. They don't have the right to indict under Justice department rules, and I know they're not going to indict. Rudy Giuliani has had a lot of not good days being president Donald Trump's lawyer. He has careened from one damaging new development to another as we have all watched like this. But that day in may last year that was like the best media day over for Rudy Giuliani. He said that special counsel Robert Mueller's office told him they told President Trump's legal team that under Justice department rules. They know they cannot indict President Trump, even if they find that Trump has definitely committed serious crimes and the reference that Giuliani kept making it all of those interviews that day that phrase under Justice department rules that is a reference in fact to the standing internal Justice department policy that says a sitting president of the United States can't be indicted. It's not a law that says, the president can't be indicted. It's not written into Justice department regulations. It's just a department policy, and it is a policy that derives from a very specific place. And if Mr. Giuliani was on cloud nine that day back in may when he felt like that revelation about Justice department policy meant that his client is in the free and clear. No matter what he did. I hope for the sake of Mr. Giuliani's happiness level that he is maybe not watching right now. Because in reporting out the story for our podcast series bagman about Spiro Agnew. We hit upon something that I think is now important and definitely provocative in light of the news that all of these different news outlets are now reporting that we may be coming to the close of the Muller investigation, and in fact to some sort of report about Muller's findings. So this is the crux of our special report tonight. We're about to break some news here that has not been reported. Elsewhere do stay with us. This is Robert Dickson Robert Dickson in the fall of nineteen Seventy-three was the head of the Justice Department's office of legal counsel. The we'll see is the office inside the Justice department that essentially advises the attorney general on the legality of complex legal matters. The all see drafts legal opinions. They researched the constitutionality of certain issues that arise they give the attorney general official Wilsey guidance on legal stuff and in the fall of nineteen Seventy-three when Robert Dickson was the head of the oil. See there was one specific important matter that dropped on his desk like a load of bricks and it had to do with Spiro Agnew who was then the vice president of the United States. And also a crook a team of young federal prosecutors in Baltimore had discovered earlier that year in the spring and nineteen Seventy-three the vice president Agnew had been conducting a bribery and extortion scheme for the better part of a deck. Paid demanding cash kickbacks in exchange for government contracts that he controlled Agnew started running this criminal enterprise when he was the top elected official in Baltimore County. Maryland, he continued it when he became governor of Maryland and in nineteen seventy three right after Agnew had just been re elected to his second term as vice president. These federal prosecutors had discovered that he was running that same criminal scheme from inside the White House as vice president he was literally taking on voluptuous of cash bribes inside his vice presidential office. And because of what those prosecutors had turned up that fall of nineteen Seventy-three attorney general Elliot Richardson had a problem because he knew what Spiro Agnew had been up to. He knew that if Richard Nixon where to go down and Watergate an active criminal was next in line to replace him. But it was not entirely clear to the attorney general if he if the Justice department could actually bring charges against the vice president wasn't clear if it was legal to indict a sitting vice president of the United States Spiro Agnew defense lawyers. In fact, we're loudly proclaiming that you could not they were saying to anybody who would listen that Agnew was immune from prosecution simply because he was vice president. And that's where Robert Dickson came in. Because that full as head of the it was Dixon's job to figure out what exactly the Justice Department's policy on this what the Justice Department's position on this question should be. Can you indict a sitting vice president? I mean, this wasn't a theoretical concern at the time. There was a forty count felony indictment against the vice president simmering on the proverbial stove and a US attorney's office in Maryland ready to be served up at any time. Was he in fact, immune from such federal charges? Could that indictment be filed against him? I mean, legally they needed. To know also practically with Nixon teetering because of Watergate with the threat that the guy who would succeed Nixon was a known and active criminal who had been taking bribes inside the White House. The attorney general Elliot Richardson needed to know if he could use at least the threat of being able to indict Agnew in order to force Agnew out of office, thereby protecting the presidential line of succession. Now, Robert Robert Dickson had been a law professor before he was head of the it was respected legal voice, especially on voting rights and election law. But now he was being asked to figure out if it was constitutional to indict a sitting vice president, and what Robert Dickson ultimately concluded back in the fall of nineteen Seventy-three just ahead of Agnew resigning. His office in the midst of that crisis around that criminal vice president Dixon's answer when he was asked that question about Agnew for decades. Now, it has been used to support the position that he president can't be indicted. But what Robert Dickson went through that fall and trying to formulate that opinion, it turns out to be kind of stunning. One of the people who we interviewed for bagman was a former Justice department official at the time named j t Smith JT Smith served at the CIA served at the defense department, and that fall of nineteen Seventy-three he was serving in the Justice department. He was one of the closest advisors to the attorney general Elliot Richardson, he was Richardson's executive assistant and JT Smith was there was there. When Richardson asked the head of the Robert Dickson to come up with an official Justice department answer to this suddenly very pressing question about whether a sitting vice president could be indicted, and what JT Smith told us in an interview for bagman is that Robert Dickson that pressure packed fall of nineteen Seventy-three. Robert Dickson really wasn't. Sure. What the right answer was to that question. He was asked by the attorney general. As one should do to write an objective legal opinion on the amenability of the vice president. To criminal process and his office dug through two hundred years of constitutional deliberations. And opinions I think they ended up being instead of head head-scratching place where. The opinion could come out either pro or con criminal process for the vice president. And. At that stage. One evening. I took a phone call from the late Robert Dixon who said do you have any idea how the attorney general wants this to turn out? Jay, you have any idea how the once the stuttering out. And honestly who could blame Robert Dickson? It's it's not like, you can just pull out the constitution and find an answer to this question of whether the vice-president can be indicted. I mean, nobody had thoroughly grappled with this question before what J Smith says he told Robert Dickson on the phone that night is that attorney general Elliot Richardson, very much hoped that opinion would come out in favor of the position that you could indict a sitting vice president. Of course, we know that Richardson was looking for anything he could use to get Agnew out of office and out of the line of succession, Robert Dixon's opinion, ultimately did conclude as Richardson wanted that a vice president can be indicted, but listen to what J T Smith says here. Listen to what else got folded into the opinion in order for Robert Dickson to get to that desired position. He could have written it either. Yes, or no. And he wrote it. Yes. But in order to get to yes, he had to draw a distinction between the vice president and the president. So the opinion came down on the side that the president's constitutional duties or so important, but it is not acceptable for the president to be subject to criminal process while in office, but by distinction. The vice president whose duties are nowhere near as important can be subject to criminal process. And that's one of the memos now cited for the proposition. But when it was written. It was a very. Close question. And we. Professor in charge of the office of legal counsel wasn't clear. How to answer, but a got answered against the imperative of dealing with the the Agnew heartbeat away problem answer against the imperative dealing with the Agnew heartbeat away from the presidency problem and that sort of critical here right for them. And for now what the Dixon memo said in nineteen Seventy-three. What what that memo said was you couldn't device president? But incidentally, you couldn't indict a president. And the way that the history of it has been remembered since then is that that nineteen Seventy-three LLC memo was written specifically with the Richard Nixon Watergate problem in mind, and it was a definitive look at the issue of whether a president can be indicted, and even the context of Watergate, they believed that Nixon really it was about Agnew and specifically trying to get to an outcome where the answer would be. Yeah, you can bring charges against Agnew J T Smith is saying here. And again, he was there when it was written is that in the. Of expressing the view that vice president can be indicted, which was the imperative of the moment Robert Dickson upheld on the president's Amine ability to indictment, but that wasn't the intent of the memo in the first place it just asserted that about the president in order to make the relevant case about the vice president. Which is important about that history. It's also important in terms of how that memo became woven into what we currently understand is how the Justice department works because to some extent the Justice department position right now that the president can't be indicted it rests on the conclusions of that nineteen Seventy-three office of legal counsel opinion, by Robert Dixon. I mean, that's where it started. That's the foundation. The Justice department did take another look at the matter in two thousand during the Clinton administration, but the roots of this position, which is a position that stands as DOJ policy. Today. It starts with this nineteen Seventy-three DOJ opinion. We've spoken to j t Smith some more about this in recent weeks, and what he says about the drafting of that opinion in nineteen Seventy-three as somebody who was there. It's just striking given the role that that memo now plays in lending defacto immunity to the president from prosecution. Got remember he told us, quote, one prepared its purpose was to allow indictment and removal of Agnew and not to serve as the last word on Indika billet, excuse me. Indict ability of a president. He also says that we'll see opinion before concluding that a sitting president can't be indicted, it reviews, some important historical material that actually could support an opposite conclusions. And when you read that nineteen Seventy-three opinion in full what J T Smith is saying. There is true. I mean in terms of the historical record Dixon's a well, see opinion states right there in black and white that quote, there is no express provision in the constitution, which confers such immunity upon the president. And that's noteworthy because the constitution does expressly provide some limited forms of immunity from prosecution for other officials, including members of congress. But there's nothing in the constitution, providing immunity from prosecution to the president Dixon also notes in the opinion that when you go through the various writings of the founders the constitutional convention debates, quote, there are strong statements by others to the point that the convention did not wish to confer such privileges meaning immunity on the president later on. He says quote the. Historical evidence on the precise point is not conclusive. And yet he ultimately puts in at the end that even though you can't really make heads or tails of what the framers of the constitution intended quote during the past century, the duties of the presidency have become so onerous that president may not be able fully to discharge the powers and duties of his office if he had to defend a criminal prosecution. So this is where it all comes from. This was the original document, the full reasoning from the sea in this opinion about indicting the president is that there's nothing in the constitution about it. We don't know what the framers intended about it at all. But the job of being president has become so hard now that it would be really hard for a president to get his work done. If he was prosecuted. I mean, that's that's the thickness of it. That's laid out in this nineteen Seventy-three LLC memo. And again, the issue was revisited in the year two thousand, but this isn't part the foundation for the view today, which we've all basically come to accept that. A sitting president is immune from indictment. Except maybe we haven't all come to accept it. I mean, looking back at the thinness of these foundations and the contemporaneous commentary of people who were there and saw that stuff was written. It's interesting to see now, that's that common. Wisdom being challenged one of the things that has been fascinating to watch just over the last few weeks and months is high ranking Democrats in congress quietly but steadily starting to call the question on whether internal Justice department policy, which is in part based on that nineteen Seventy-three memo whether Justice department policy really does definitively preclude an indictment against a sitting president Democrats expressing doubt about that. Now include the chairman of the House Judiciary committee, Jerry Nadler, and the chairman of the house oversight committee Elijah Cummings and the chairman of the intelligence committee, Adam Schiff, it also includes the speaker of the house. Do you believe the special counsel should honor and observe the department of Justice guidance that states a sitting president cannot be indicted? My not saying that that is conclusive Noah do not I think that is an open discussion in terms of the law open discussion in terms of law. Democrats have been telegraphing for a few months now that they believe a sitting president can be indicted by the Justice department, despite whatever you might have heard about what current internal Justice department policy is on this matter. Earlier this week that was report at politico dot com that quote legal circles are buzzing over whether SDN y might buck Justice department guidance and seek to indict a sitting president. In other words, the talking about the prospect that federal prosecutors in the southern district of New York specifically, they might not necessarily feel beholden to that Justice department policy about a president being off limits from indictment. And now, we have someone who was there when the roots of that Justice department policy was first crafted saying in pretty blunt terms that the opinion formed back then was never meant to serve as the last word on the indict ability of president. And just to put a fine point on it. JT? Smith told us, quote, it would be timely appropriate for the Justice department and Robert Muller to reconsider these shaky policy regarding indict ability of a sitting president I formulated forty five years ago, in this opinion in one thousand nine hundred seventy three JT Smith told us, quote, the durability of this opinion is curious. We all believe that the president can't be indicted because that's Justice department policy that says you can that Justice department policy talking to people there at the outset of what made that policy say that the durability of that idea is curious, and this is shaky policy in his shaky policy that ought to be reconsidered by the Justice department. According to someone who was there at the creation. That's the policy that is supposedly preventing any potential indictment against a president even today. So what do we do with that? Now, especially right now, given what's going on with this president? We've got just the person you would wanna ask about it next. Joining us now is Walter Dellinger. He served our country as head of the office of legal counsel as well as acting solicitor general into President Clinton, fester Dellinger. Thank you so much for being here with us tonight. You are welcome. So it's accepted as as common wisdom in in the news business, and I think in general right now that the president cannot face indictment because of Justice department policy that precludes that as someone who used to run the office that creates that kind of policy at the Justice department. How solid do you see that policy as being, you know, I don't think it's all solid. I don't think you can make categorical judgment of that kind. And you've just added to the notion of how shaky that policy is you're terrific podcast bag, man. That's gift that keeps on giving the seventy three memo Robert Dickson was distinguished lawyer. But it's always I think Missy by me at least as a really shoddy piece of work of that doesn't explain why. When there's nothing in the constitution. You can have a categorical rule against even indicting a president middle. You gotta postpone the trial proceedings while he or she is serving but more to the point. Rachel that memo was essentially repudiated. Nine months later. It was a September Seventy-three memo was repudiated. When the United States filed in United States Supreme court in United States versus Nixon by leeann Joe Warsi, the special counsel, but acting on behalf of the department of Justice said that they did not accept the proposition did not accept the proposition that a president could not be indicted, and indeed a strongly believe that he could be an unindicted co conspirator and did that with regard to to Dixon, and I think the. The the Agnew saga that you if you tell so well in bagman tells us a lot to one of the reasons Agnew resigned was that he was facing criminal prosecution an indictment and knew that he had to give up the vice presidency as the bargaining chip. In terms of sorry. Go ahead, sir. Go ahead. We learned something very important from the anti semitic. Dances said Spiro Agnew did after he left the vice president. So you know, he was allowed by giving up the vice president he was allowed to plead guilty to one charge of a ten thousand dollar fine and unsupervised probation, and that slap on the wrist, which is you tell it was so hard to take on behalf of the the lion. Prosecutor in that case of his severe corruption that allowed him to lead a fairly distinguished life thereafter, and it makes me question. Whether that light a penalty for Agnew was was really worth playing. If it allowed him to to have the kind of role he had with US Saudi so jihad project, and of course, they all these things meshed together Agnew felt compelled to resign because he believed he was subject to indictment. The attorney general was able to bring that pressure to on him only because Nixon did excuse me because Agnew had no reason. Real reason to believe that he was going to be immune from prosecution, it is striking to me to see this top aide to attorney general Elliot Richardson at the time from the time, the Dixon memo was written saying that was never intended to be a definitive pronouncement on indicting president to the extent that that has laid some of the foundation for us believing as a country that that's completely off the question. That's curious. This shouldn't be seen as such something that should be so durable. Either. In the specifics of the Dixon memoir and anything that's grown since. Then. I mean, do you think I mean, absent the politics whether or not this is realistic? Do you think this is something that the Justice department should revisit should Muller or the office of legal counsel, go back out? This question about the indict ability of presidents and vice presidents. I do think they do they should especially. Especially if the if the president would not waive the statute of limitation of for any crimes, Tom might expire during his time of service if you won't do that. Then I think they should proceed to an indictment if the facts of the law warranted and then proceed to prosecution when he leaves office. Remember, no, one disputes that the president can be indicted once he leaves office, and that's only twenty two months out from this term Walter farmer, head of the office of legal counsel acting solicitor General, Sir. We're really really happy to be able to get you here to talk with us about this night. Thank you so much for making time. Thank you. You're welcome. All right. Up next something to watch for tomorrow in the special counsel case against the Trump campaign chairman tomorrow, we are about to get something that is going to be in my estimation, red hot at least something you are definitely going to want to read stay with us. That's next. Today. Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort got a new sentencing date in Virginia. He's going to be sentenced on Friday, March eighth that this is the jurisdiction where Manafort was convicted on eight felony counts of Bank fraud and tax fraud. Prosecutors say the sentencing guidelines suggest a nineteen to twenty four year sentence for Manafort just in Virginia. Now that March eighth sentencing date comes five days before his other sentencing date and the other jurisdictions where he's been charged that sentencing will be less than a week later on Wednesday, March thirteenth in Washington DC in that case judge recently ruled that Manafort broke his cooperation agreement when he deliberately lied to Muller's investigators about important stuff, including his contacts with a man who prosecutors say has active ties to Russian intelligence eek. I should tell you that tomorrow we're expecting to get a detailed sentencing submission from Muller's. Prosecutors in that case we've already seen that in Virginia. That's where we got the nineteen to twenty four year range were expecting the DC sentencing submission from Muller's prosecutors tomorrow now. It will be interesting. I mean, I don't have any inside knowledge. But given what we know about these types of documents. This filing will be narrative. It will be something. You will definitely want to follow the news about whether or not Robert Muller's report is imminent. The sentencing report on Manafort in Washington DC will be something you want to pay attention to. So that's my way of telling you that tomorrow night show is going to be a doozy. We'll see then that does it for us tonight. The legal meadow show, weeknights at nine eastern on MSNBC.

Ted Agnew Spiro Agnew vice president US Spiro Agnew Agnew J T Smith president Justice department Robert Dickson Robert Dickson Richard Nixon President Bush first vice president President Donald Trump Saudi Arabia Saudi Crown Robert Dixon George Herbert Walker Bush Bush Agnew Elliot Richardson kitty Dukakis congress
2248 - The Age of Illusions: How America Squandered Its Cold War Victory w/ Andrew Bacevich

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

1:15:44 hr | 11 months ago

2248 - The Age of Illusions: How America Squandered Its Cold War Victory w/ Andrew Bacevich

"You are listening to a Free Berge of majority report with Sam Cedar to support this show and get another fifty minutes daily program go to resort he dot. FM Please Rub. It is Monday January. Six Two thousand twenty. My Name is Sam Cedar this the Five Time Award. Winning Majority Report Broadcasting Live steps from the industrial ravage Ghana's canal in the heartland of America downtown Brooklyn Brooklyn USA on the program. Today Andrew Base a bitch author of the age of illusions. How America squandered its Cold War victory also on the program today? The Iraqi Prime Minister Claims Sumani was in Iraq for mediation between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Meanwhile the Iraqi parliament calls for the the US exit and Iran reduces its nuke deal commitments and threatens retaliation in Europe our European allies dump trump as he threatens war crimes on twitter. Sarah and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee wants Suma notice. Declassified and the House vote on new war powers Resolution Russian meanwhile the CBP custom's and border patrol now stopping and questioning Iranian-americans at the US border and and they returned tomorrow. Pelosi and the Democrats have made no decision on sending articles of impeachment all this in the wake of disclosure of their existing existing twenty on disclosed M B E. Mails the Ho- feller drives. Ads are live the GOP's Gerrymander granddaddy. Tell secrets from the grave. And Guido gets quiet out has d'oro oh backs a new parliamentary speaker. Trump's EPA rollback will destroy protections for eighty one percent of streams in the south west of this country entry and US manufacturing falls to its lowest level in a decade. The Fed blames trump's tariffs all this and more on today's program lays gentleman These Hof Feller. I don't WanNA forget about this. The whole feller drives of have mentioned these in the past wholesaler. was that Republican. Who came up with the among other things he's he was the sort of the the the founding father of the modern version of Gerrymandering the Republicans have embarked upon and he was the one who was pushing for the census to ask the question about citizenship and had run models showing that in Texas it would help Republican Party and white candidates immensely and we know that because he died and Apparently was estranged from his daughter who was cleaning up stuff and looked at one of the drives. And all the drives had all this information and so The Republicans have been trying to keep this information under wraps and she said Go. Screw yourself I mean. I don't know if she said those exact words she may have sworn I don't know and she She has now released released them. We will put the linked to these Drives in the PODCAST in Youtube. Descriptions Quyen what he absolutely what we I I closed the TAB on. But what was the name of what is the name of the site I don't think this file files DOT COM our Ho- feller And you can head over there and I WANNA WANNA encourage our listeners to go there and check them out if you see stuff that's interesting. Send us an email with this one here the the wholesaler files DOT COM or at least Stephanie's coffee yeah copy. Yeah now I guess And it takes you right to the drives and you might as well or just download that now that now that we're there I want details. Yes exactly here's some details folks go through those things and yeah we should get a like a hash. Take or something for people to find their own Ho filler files discoveries that can take them. Yeah I guess Ho Feller files would be a good hashtag but send us an email at majority reporters at gmail.com. If you find anything that you I think might be interesting. I mean people are going to be going over these with fine tooth comb because these are going to be the basis of lawsuits I I would imagine going forward. They certainly their existence certainly influence the decision by the Supreme Court. I think when it came to the census question it became very hard for them to argue that. This was not racially motivated when the guy was clearly running an analysis and coming up with the result of this is really going to help white candidates eight and disempower Latinos. So we should do this. I don't think that was the exact phrasing but I think it's pretty close. Actually actually so check that out. I wanted to make sure that everybody kept that sort of foreground and as it were we got a lot to talk about on the program today marched across the bridge In New York Mark extensively like a solidarity anti Semite Anti anti-semitism March. Although we will talk talk about Barry White sort of like you know I guess in some ways confusing that a little bit but we will get to that later We will also be talking talking about the new polls out showing Bernie Sanders now. I think the realclearpolitics average has him in lead in Iowa and New Hampshire. Hell Yeah and We will talk a little bit about what we anticipate. The implications of The fascination of of Sulamani will mean to the elections Julian Castro endorsed Elizabeth Warren. So his you know. Two percent support may go to warn but I don't think people were terribly early. Surprised about that particular based upon their almost identical salon already sharing a spokesperson. Yeah we talked about that on Friday. a tweet composer we and It's we were very fortunate to have just luckily had booked the Andrew Base of it we wanted to talk to him about depend the Not The Pentagon papers the Afghanistan papers and whatnot obviously There there is more recent developments with our potential for a war going forward. There's a lot of different reporting that. We're hearing about the Y.. Suliman was in Iraq at the time and of course what the fallout has been at this point right. Nobody is so far has really come up. With a cohesive argument that there was even a strategy nevermind a bad strategy that there was any strategy To this and the comment and this on Friday we had and let's we'll we got this clip from Fox and friends Fox and friends is still sort of like an overdrive. They're trying to catch up to this. Because on Friday Brian Kilmeade. Now remember why is Fox and friends important because Fox axon friends is basically their job is to tell the the casual REVANCHIST My saying that right revanchist The casual revanchist. You what to think but needs to be done in such a way that it's like it is spoon fed in pre predigested. A most understood understood. Non Verbally EXAC- exactly and Brian kilmeade on Friday was talking house for the non verbal. Yeah exactly Brian. Cumulative Oughta kilmeade on Friday you'll recall saying like Kesse. Solani was the evil like the number one terrorist in America's been fighting and we went back just to see if we could talk. See how much he's been talking about Sulamani over the years in. Apparently he mentioned him. Once in early twenty eighteen eighteen now remember kilmeade has a radio show me does like six hours of content a day and for him to Oh be ignoring the number one terrorist threat to Americans is really a disservice to all of us. I think we had no idea But aside from that of course you know Suleyman Sumani was the general in charge of In many respects are coordinating warning all these franchisees of proxy militias across the region Of fighting in Iran and probably more narrow interests as well and there has been an ongoing proxy war between A. Rod and Saudi Arabia. And we we have. We have engaged in it down the Saudi side But the they're working overdrive to try and sell this retro retroactively and I think at the very least and we'll talk a base of about this. It shows that this was like a very recent project is reporting that suggests Pompeii EOS been working on this for months trying to convince trump and they finally have enough enough lunatics in key positions is in the US government where they all just Sorta sign-off said yes. The obvious thing to do but here is Here's Fox and friends explaining the I guess that trump has has responded to the threats from the response from Iran. Well the President United States. Now that everybody's back concession they have the Senate impeachment trial wouldn't end supposedly ever decides to give up the impeachment articles Is he in fact doing this killing Sulejmani. Who's been on a terrorist of a for about ten years in the fours for longer than that? Was He actually doing this to distract from impeachment and Elizabeth Warren thought about offenses. Yeah I think so next week. The president of the United States could be facing an impeachment trial in the Senate Senate. We know he's deeply upset about that and I think people are reasonably asking why this moment. Why does he pick? Now take this highly inflammatory. Highly dangerous action that moves US closer to war. It was not suggest. Elizabeth Warren who by the way has fallen into fourth place in Iowa behind Buddha Gandhi and Biden but also budejovice itself he said yesterday this miscellany was a bad guy at blood on his hands but the administration has failed to demonstrate why they had to take this operation right. And it's so interesting that people are critical of the president's decisions ends of our intelligence communities. Decisions are general's decision detail. General Tate US said well they can't have it for one second. I mean what is. This is just Ainsley Earhardt is that her name again. She gets into like Escher painting painting qualities. Here first off the intelligence agencies and the generals did not make this decision the the the the White House itself said it was Donald Trump's decision there is reporting supposedly that they gave him this option and I I guess subordinates to the three who showed up and gave them the option which was palm peyot and Millie and asper. The Raytheon Executive. I've I'm sorry the I'm sorry. The Secretary of defense or the Raytheon executive really is it doesn't matter. They rolled up in one that Latte subordinates. Were like wow can't believe he's doing this. That's the reporting but there's no reporting that the general said we're doing. This wasn't a general's decision. It was the president's decision and then the irony is that she's making up the story about all the people who are supposedly part of the deep state out out to get trump and now they're the greatest defenders their their unquestionable again. Turn right and it's so interesting that people all are critical of the president's decisions of our intelligence communities decisions are general's decision DJ General. Tao's said well they can't have it. They can't everything can't be made public blake. We heard POMPEII over the weekend. Saying everything that we have the intelligence community has he said I ran the CIA at one point. We can't release everything. We can't release all of our intelligence information. Asian will release as much as we can but you just have to trust us. Basically and general `tatoes said it makes us more safe. He agreed with killing this general this evil terrorist. He says it goes to show how ridiculous our divide as that. They Support Sola Mani over the president's decision it counters everything that I learned as a soldier. Just keep in mind you take. They support Sulejmani over the president's decision. I think that's sort of Mrs. What's going on here but it also explains to you why you always heard everybody saying like had blood on his hands? Because I've gotTA prove that I don't support Sulejmani a guy who nobody heard of before three days ago. I mean obviously people who you want details details. You can't have them. You can't have them and there's a the New York Times reporter room on. I can't remember her name off the top of my head but she. She said that in her reporting she has found that the that just about everybody has said the idea idea that this Guy Sumani was about was even remotely close to sort of on the verge of plotting or planning for executing a an attack on. US military interests was read thin. They said and for those of you who do not play a wind instrument the read needs to be super thin so that way you blow it makes us out. We'll think of the. I mean the height of him being being in a proxy war against the United States where he quote unquote killed Americans. It's called being in a proxy war. I was none of us. Were doing any of these things. But it's like amazing childish. Older people are about this was was like after the invasion of Iraq which I mean Cheney and Bush didn't do this and they did everything here it is it's a rook many column Archie. I've had a chance to check with sources including two. US officials who had intelligence briefings after the strike on Sulamani. This is after the strike. Here's what I've learned according to them. Oh excuse me I misspoke. She wrote according to them. The evidence suggesting there was an imminent attack on American targets razor thin so not quite as thin as a read but was thinner but stronger thinner but strug in fact the evidence pointing to that came as three discrete facts. A pattern of travel showing Sumani was in Syria. Lebanon and Iraq Act was she a proxies known to have an offensive position to the US as one source said. That's just business. As usual for Sulamani more intriguing gene was be information. Indicating Sumani sought. The Supreme Leader's approval for an operation. He was told to come to Tehran for consultation for the guys in suggesting the operation action was a big deal but again that could be anything and the Iraqi prime minister has now at least publicly claimed that the reason why Sulamani was is coming from Tehran on a rally a commercial white was because he was bringing a response response to proposals that had come from Saudi Arabia to de-escalate so all of that is consistent with itself. Let's continue to listen here to Fox and friends. We're sort of doing this sort of high low road. Would they say guess over the President's decision it counters everything that I learned as a soldier. Just keep in mind if you go to be critical of the prison for not hitting Iran on after they killed took out our drone and not hitting Iran after they rocketed the Saudi oil basis. And not going. After Iran after they were trying to mining in the Gulf you can also be critical the president when he does take action in that area embassy. Yeah they go well. How could the president letter embassy get breached? Not Do anything we does something again. These same people going. Oh my God how could the president do suffer. And so why didn't it positive for one second first of all. I don't think it's the same people I think he's wrong about that. Secondly it's also not just do some do anything. It's not do anything. It's do something that's not going to create a war. Is I think what people are saying. And so why did the president notify Congress before he hit. Do you think he really trusts the Democrats who are impeaching him right now. The Mike Pompeo who heard the causes on one second. Listen one of the reasons why you consult Congress is not because you get along with members of the other party. It's not like I wanNA maintain our friendship. We're not talking to you. The best of terms right now. I don't like them and so the constitution off and let invited to their constitution. Override put in by John. Jay called if you're not getting log you don't you don't do it all right. Just continue. Mike Pompeo who heard the criticism from Democrats who essentially saying that the president did this thing over there in Iraq to like the movie wag the dog. Mike POMPEO's secretary of State says this about that watch. Do you think thank that as misguided as it may be that some of our enemies think that this president is more vulnerable because of the impeachment effort. You should ask Mr Sylla money not available for contact with one snap That actually doesn't address the question. Which of course is did he do? This to distract from impeachment I suspect we will get a better sense of that. Answer in the coming days it. NBC is now NBC. News now learned the John. Bolton is willing to testify in the Senate impeachment trial if he's subpoenaed. That's GONNA put a lot of pressure. I think on Mitch McConnell as far as I can tell us so we will see going further But before we get to base a bitch Folks if you know this about me but I have never been the most stylish person in fact Yes Michael Michael This. I think today though I said well I think if you have if you have noticed if you've paid attention you've been watching me on the Sami Cam back in the air. America days whereby Where my my my motto was I spend more time prepping. prepping primping and Do you justify my lack in style. Well you've seen upgrade over the past year or so part of that. Ah Frankly has been stitch fix so I mean look at yourself in the Mirror folks describe your style in one word. I can describe describe mine. It was basically none low key. I like to call it now. Low Key but however you dressed isla set stitch fix can help you find your new favourite piece sticks. It's an online personal. 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The code majority wrap at checkout. That's twenty five percent off anything you order and liquid. IV's website go to liquid. Id Dot Com enter through the Promo Code. Majority Rep our EP to save twenty five percent and get better hydration and energy. Don't wait. Start fuelling your adventures today. Hey all right quick break. And when we come back Andrew Base of each on the age of allusions UH Yeah we are back. Sam Cedar on the majority report on the phone. A pleasure to welcome back to the program Professor Emeritus of International Relations in History Boston University. The President of the Quincy Institute Andrew Bait Switch author of his latest the age of illusions. How America's squandered its Cold War victory professor? Welcome to the program. Thank you very much Let's let's let I mean. Obviously there's been a lot in the news that You would like to touch on. But let's start with the the the broad strokes of your book and I suspect that much of what has happened and not just in the last couple of days but frankly in the past like a month or two with the the release of the Afghanistan papers Further your your premise. You argue that in the in the fall all the the the the were I should say the end of the Cold War And in you credit George George Herbert Walker Bush. Having unimpressive understanding of how the world worked but an inability really articulate any type of vision going forward that American elites basically pushed a four major sort of I guess premises Global Globalized neoliberalism a militarized hegemony radical Michael Individual Autonomy and presidential command Let's just Talk about those and and and how we see those playing out I mean I think we we. We talk a lot about globalized neoliberalism on this program. But let's talk a little bit about the militarized Jammie yeah and I think I think it's appropriate appropriate. Given the moment that we're in in a nutshell American elites both civilians and military officers officers persuaded themselves after the Cold War that we had become militarily supreme the the only other superpower ahead collapsed and so from a military point of view. We were king of the hill and can do what we wanted that led to in my judgment a dramatic attic transformation in the ration health for American military power during the Cold War the idea was to prevent World War three to deter are to to make sure that the Soviets didn't take over Western Europe in the aftermath of the Cold War. The idea became to put American military power to work to fix problems And that line of thinking was very much in evidence in the wake of nine eleven. When the George W Bush administration Gratien launched this global war on terrorism with Enormously optimistic expert expectations of transforming much of the Islamic world. You know fast forward to January twenty twenty. We're still stuck in that war and we have a president who having promised to get us out seems to be getting us in that much deeper with the assassination over the past week as evidence of that. Let me just a question you a little bit on those. The I mean I understand the characterization of our military as being a bulwark against The you know within the Cold War but ultimately isn't there a consistency between what we aunt. We really looked for two to our military to do then as we do now which is to protect the financial interests of people who had the most amount of influence within this this country and and how they would maintain those interests abroad. I don't think I'd agree fully I mean it is. It is certainly the case that the system the way our our our system of governance is set up it it privileges the well to do it helps helps to make sure that the people who are rich stay rich and get richer and the the well being of the people who are are are not wealthy Who indeed in many respects are in need tends to get treated as an afterthought I don't know that that's that's central to Thinking talking about the use of military power but it does seem to be one of the overarching truths To our system and indeed again referring back to this this period after the Cold War ended that occurred in spades with all the enthusiasm about globalization. And how that was GONNA make everybody. Rich didn't make everybody rich and made some people very very very rich indeed but of course it exacerbated the the gap between between the rich and everybody nobody else so that that gap is larger today than I probably ever ban certainly did that. It's been since the latter part of the eighteen hundreds well. I guess what I'm thinking of and maybe I'm maybe I'm thinking about the military to broadly. Are things like The Kissinger was the thirteen. Or the You know Where we were projecting our power and the Central American Latin America because of of of corporate what interests or The you know our involvement in the Middle East to a certain extent was also about at least maintaining oil or or access to oil or preventing others from getting access to oil which I guess can be seen in a in a Cold War context but also maybe that was. This is what I'm asking is was the that was the impart pretext of the day. Well I mean yes and no I mean I would certainly agree that if you WanNa know how we we what why we ended up defining The Persian Gulf the Middle East as a vital. US national security interest. The one word answer to that question is oil so that trying to ensure the continued flow of oil from the Persian Gulf has been the over arching rationale. US policy military policy in the region. Going back to the Carter doctrine of of nineteen of nineteen eighteen seventy nine which really militarized. US policy in the region that said seems to me that the emphasis on ensuring access access to oil reflects not simply a determination of people in power to enrich their chums it also reflects the prevailing definition Phoenician freedom of how our fellow citizens define what it means to be free and that sadly the definition tends to take the form of material interests to be free we believe we collectively believe to be free is is to have a car that we can fill with cheap gas so that we can go wherever we go When we want to go there and that it seems to me also helps to explain why the United States has gotten itself involved in this misbegotten war In the Persian Gulf now the really interesting part is of course here in twenty twenty. Guess what. We don't need Persian Gulf Oil to maintain the American way of life but our policy elites haven't quite caught up to the fact that is to say they haven't caught up to the fact that that in a very concrete since the Persian Gulf really isn't and doesn't qualify as vital. US national security interest. We need to reevaluate How how important that part of the world is to us in substantive substantive terms and I think if we did so we'd find that the the rationale for maintaining the so called global war on terrorism would evaporate? I'm yeah what it is that simple. I mean I mean I. I was aware that we get a fraction of the domestic loyal or I should say oil that we used domestically from that region. We get most of it from from the United. Well we could get most of it from the United had states Canada Mexico. We could be. We could be the perfectly free from that area and obviously prices are fixed. I you know globally. But if we really were concerned about it we also just nationalize all our own resources and deal with it that way is that it or is is part of it. Also just a desire to control the spigot on some level so that our you know rivals China Say Don't have unfettered access to it. Well I think I think I would stop that sentence with the word control other words. Don't go to the spigot what I mean by that is there is a mindset within the foreign policy establishment in Washington dates back to World War Two certainly reinforced by the Cold War and by the end of the Cold War and added says we are the global leader we are we are somehow called upon to determine the future of global events and and that A containing a presence frequently military presence in many parts of the world is the way we exercise that that leadership And I think he can make a case that during the Cold War Despite many Arizona the way like like Vietnam the that that there was some merit in that notion of of or that definition of American global leadership. I think that rationale has collaborated Since the end of the Cold War and this notion that we need to control for example the notion that we need to control what goes on in the part the world inhabited by Saudi Arabia and Iraq Iran has simply caused us to make catastrophic mistakes costly to US costly to the people that we supposedly liberating And and there is an enormous stubbornness Among elites in Washington to acknowledge the extent to which our policies net part of the world have yielded a disaster president trump said said he understood that those policies had led to disaster. said he was going to get us out and of course he has not done that and indeed now I think it seems increasingly likely that he is going to replicate the errors in judgment of Obama. End of George W Bush and Bill Clinton and so I want to get into to that in a more but I just also want to touch on maybe the more general aspect of presidential command. You talk about the The Eleventh Commandment Emmett you call it. the decalogue plus one or D D plus one Explain that to us in and also explain to us whether that comes from the the the sort of just the quality of Congress just feeling Mentally Selena emotionally overwhelmed and they don't want to have to process a lot of the things we just talked about and so they just deferred to the president. Well I think that's true I mean I don't WanNa be too harsh but I think that really reflects cowardice on the part of Congress not not a Republican cover covered us or democratic cowardice cowardice that has created an inclination. I should say a disinclination on the part of the Congress to fulfill fill its duties under the constitution and of course the things related to the war powers are classic example of that So this this this deference to the commander in chief goes all the way back to World War Two and two the earliest days of the Cold War when we we. We persuaded ourselves that. We need to empower the president to blow up the world to push the button In order to keep ourselves safe we could have a long the argument about whether or not that made sense back in. Let's say nineteen forty nine or nineteen fifty-nine but it certainly doesn't make any sense today and therefore there's as an urgent need to curtail the authority of the of the president to make war and I think it's it's only with president trump In his You know sort of casual away of making decisions That that there is now a much livelier appreciation. Shen that this deference to the commander-in-chief really has been a mistake for a long long time. I mean what what do do you think that that accounts for that in this day and age and I agree with you. It's cowardice but it's also one that seems to be sort of almost distinct of of of self preservation. I'm thinking at least in terms of of the Democrats right and because I mean Republicans have not paid a price in supporting It seems to me now. I guess one could argue that Jeb Bush you know pay the price maybe in the last The last Republican primary on some level because of of of his brothers A war of choice but when I look Democrats I see And maybe this is just my you know. I'm not quite old enough to remember a time where it would different but you know maybe McGovern still sort of like rules in in the the the the heads of of Democrats but I think John Kerry and his failure to sort of like follow. What I think was his natural natural inclination to vote against the Iraq war? Wh what accounts for that cowardice is it is it. Is it alternately. The what accounts for that. Well you know if you take responsibility for something then you're going to be held accountable for what the consequences were So it's a lot easier To foist the responsibility for making war onto the president. And then if things don't go away you can go tut cut Tut Tut What a mistake that was but you don't really own it I wouldn't disagree with you on the fact that prices have been paid your remember. Remember back in the off your elections of two thousand and six The American people did hold George W Bush responsible elected the Democratic Congress And probably also explains one of the least one explanation for why Barack Obama won the presidency in two thousand. I was in an eight. If you're a member was denouncing stupid wars and promising to get out of them fair enough I mean I sort of think that the two thousand thousand six Thing in retrospect might have been as much about About Mark Foley and sort of the corruption amongst the Republicans. But I I I like to think part of it was at least antiwar but so where would we have now. Seen there are war powers new the war powers. Resolutions are acts. I guess. Resolutions based on the Act introduced in the Senate by Tim Kaine and in the house by a Barbour Lien. Ilhan Omar that Merah one that sanders in had introduced sometimes back. Where what? What is the need for these resolutions? I mean is it to just sort of like. I don't know spruce up the marker that theoretically is already there I don't know really I mean to some degree it. It looks like posturing You wonder if anything's GonNa Really Change You know if it seems to me that if the Congress genuinely believed that the president was exceeding is authority in making war somewhere that there is a solution Aleutian readily available. And that's cut off the funding I mean the the Congress does the power of the purse is very substantial But but the the thing to reflex reaction that the congress is to say. Oh my God. We don't WanNa be accused of not supporting the troops and therefore they continue to fund wars even when a majority of members have concluded that the war is a stupid one and therefore the authority of the commander in chief to do whatever he wants remains intact. And of course we have now a precedent of the president moving funds from go to to appropriating funds for the for the wall. I mean if he can I think it would be `institutional complicated and controversial virtual. I'm not trying to say that power. The purse equals. You know we can. We can shut off a war between now and next Thursday but it does seem to me that ultimately that's that that is that defines the authority of the Congress indeed The the the the framers of the Constitution and believed that our system of three Coequal branches of government that the nonetheless you know the first among equals in their judgment was the congress. That's article one of the of the Constitution described the role of the Congress. It's only article too. That gets to talking. About what the president can you cannot do. What do you make of? I wonder how much sort of there are more or culprits in this in this day and age when you know. I don't know three weeks ago. Four weeks ago we get all of this You know this trove of information on Afghanistan that basically says we as a country have been lied to by our leaders for fifteen years. Sixteen you know like like I'm I'm trying to be generous and not say the entire eighteen but I mean nobody's talking about it. I think I think I I must say one of the things that I most disappointed about it. There was a big flurry of interest When The Washington Post broke the story of the Afghanistan and papers I think that lasted about seventy two hours and already oh it quickly began to fade away. Because I think you're exactly right here That trove of documents indicts The entire National Security Apparatus US Democrats Republicans senior military officers There was a pattern. Probably continues to be a pattern of of the -ception and dishonesty we relied to How could that have happened? Well I mean again as I think there's a there's A short version of the story in the long version. I think the long version is more important. And that is that going back to World War Two and through the Cold War. The American people came to believe that that the experts Whether there are people working in the White House or they were generals working in the Pentagon that the experts had the best interests of the country at heart and they knew what they were doing that they were competent. You know I'm a sort of Vietnam era guy and if there's anything we should have learned from Vietnam is that the people who are supposedly smarter than the rest of us were smarter order. I mean the people who blundered into Vietnam the people who who insisted upon continuing that war long after it became apparent that that it was a a an an active folly. If they got away with it I mean we're talking about the McNamara's and the McGeorge Bundy's and the the William Westmoreland and on and on One might have thought that the Vietnam War would have created a sense of skepticism and the American public An an unwillingness to defer to trust to people claim to be experts but that if that if that skepticism existed faded needed away quickly. Where did I mean it seems to have faded away from every possible sector that it could have existed on some level? I would've imagined the skepticism awesome would have been most institutionalized within the context of the military on some level. Maybe I don't know I have no experience within that institution but at least there's like some type of of framework presumably where there's institutional memory But I just watch the clip today of of Mark Milley. Who is the as you know the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff saying I don't believe really any of this stuff often those Afghanistan papers because it would involve some type of like broad conspiracy when to me would just have to be that everybody agrees? We're just going to be cowardly sadly in. Do exactly what you just mentioned earlier. which is not be the thumb that sticks out and tell the truth I think the the military threes hierarchy and in any hierarchy their incentive to play along So that you can make your way up toward the top of the Greasy Pole. Military service does not encourage original thinking it can demand conformity And I think that you know. It's the younger officers who very interestingly are the ones who have the have the critical take on Afghanistan or rock It's a senior officer. Say who say Jeez. I didn't see anything wrong. We're a bunch of smart guys doing the best. We can. So that that part of the problem I think where do you think this. I mean we're on the verge of perhaps and I don't no I mean if you have an assessment that is you know I'd be curious to your assessment as to what what is actually going on with this assassination and I noticed you called it an assassination of Sulamani what is your assessment of it. I mean you you know. I've heard different differing theories that Just this has been a long term project for Pompeo and and having milly in there and and experts who is a Raytheon executive they. Were you know there was a sort of a unified front in pushing this or I've also heard theories that maybe this this was a mistake and they didn't realize that Sulamani was there and they were just going after Mohammadi's I think who is the the Iraqi militia leader who was part of the incursion to the US embassy. What is your assessment of of what's happening there and of the ability of of our I mean a of of what the agenda is of the white of the administration really here well first of all I mean I I oh I don't know But my my guess is that In these kind of matters the You know the Secretary of Defense the term DRENCH ISA staff they're gonNA go into the Oval Office there say Mr Mr President. We think we need to act. And here's here are the five options that we recommend you consider one two three three four five typically It's it's it's the middle one. It's the one that's not too hot or too cold That the bureaucracy doc. Bureaucracy wants the president to choose. I think in this case he surprised everybody by choosing the one that was way too hot Neither the president nor more his advisors had thought through about consequences. What happens next? Where does this? Where does this leave us? How does this somehow advanced the well being of our country so that killed this guy and and in doing so of course they surrendered the initiative to The Iranian government to decide. What's going to happen next and here? We are waiting with baited breath to find out how Iran is going to react. I mean they have reacted to some degree you Condemnation pulling out of what remained of the Iran nuclear deal. There was a broad expectation. There's going to be some kind of violent violent act I don't know if that's going to be the case my own guess would be that there will be but it won't be direct won't won't the Iranians are. I'm not stupid. They're not gonNA sort of directly attack the United States or even US forces they're going to launch an attack that is indirect or oblique or maybe an attack in which their own role will be somewhat disguised and therefore it'll be create complications For Bush in his advisors excuse me trump and his advisors in trying to figure out how to formulate a response. And they don't need to do tomorrow. I I mean they they the initiative is there is they can wait patiently. can calculate which President Bush does not do And and and come up with the answer that they think makes sense doesn't mean it's going to be a good answer of sensible answer But you know we're going to wait and see mode now. I think what what do you make of of of Mike Pence coming out and saying that Sulaiman helped ten of the men who would carry out the nine eleven attacks. I mean I I think I think there's no evidence to support that Just like there's no evidence to support his claim with with the Iraqi parliament having said they want. US forces out of the country pence goes on TBN. Says I know that the Iraqi people want us to stay I mean took. The arrogance is breathtaking. Well it seems to me that there's it's worse than there's no evidence of that there's a nine eleven report to the extent that we have evidence we have all the evidence points. It's in the other direction. I mean we one thing to say like I think the Iraqi people want Xyz and we haven't taken a poll but we had a dozen polls that said the Iraqi people want on a say they won't be it seems to me he's lying he's lying. I think that would have. I think it's an accurate characterization nation. Yeah let me let me just ask you one final question. Here they go in and they present Donald Trump would the you know. Here's the five options. Is there nobody what he in this process. Who is like? And here's the you know two paragraphs who's written on the implications of these choices or what we would do afterwards awards like is it. Just here's the way that we can react. Is there nobody who's presenting him with like. And incidentally this is what this is the logical sort of next next steps that happen if we act that way. Yeah nor- normally there would be Doesn't mean that the analysis would necessarily be sound but there would be analysis. That's what it's best. We can tell outsiders outside observers. It doesn't appear that that's the way this president Operate in other words. He's not interested in some subordinates. Ideas of how a particular action could play out he. He's a he's a gut level. Kinda Guy You know he operates on instinct and on impulse And that's his Mo And I think it's It's exceedingly dangerous but I don't know that anybody has found a way to Kurt curtail Eh inclination on his part Lastly this has been something. You've obviously been thinking about these questions for a long time and and been talking about and writing about them what what is what is there one element of society. That's going to have to sort of Lead this charges there. One that's uniquely weekly situated like how do we get out of this seemingly never ending I guess progression through this served never ending war. Let's got to beat the American people and that's not going to be the The Washington establishment. It's not going to be the military. It's going to say. Hey wait a second. We now realize we've been going in the wrong direction and we want change course radically and in many respects I believe my book. I argue Twenty sixteen election was in fact. A repudiation of those stupid ideas that shape policy during the post Cold War era remember particularly on the matter of war the candidate trump said yes our never ending being wars are stupid. Elect me I will end them And I think that was a major factor in why he got elected in the first place sadly he has has not been able to follow through on what he promised and I think he hasn't in large part because he doesn't know how I mean He. He's not capable of sophisticated analysis. Careful follow through and so we get decisions like this one to assassinate the the Iranian general and then we all sit around trying figure out what the consequences are. Is there a candidate today that That you see them maybe Running that is that that represents A similar opportunity but maybe one. That's not as devoid of any Capacity to execute you know. I don't think I'm in a position to evaluate all the democratic challenge with me. I'm just sort of amazed that so many of them that are still in the race that we haven't the Democrats haven't been able to reduce the field down to two or three where then we could kind of make that careful examination of of the individual's ability to think individuals temperament I don't think we're there yet and I say that with great regret you don't think Sanders represents that I'm just at the very least in the context of of of of This attack on Suleyman and Ben broadly speaking I mean To the extent that there has been a he's introduced He we have five senators running the racer. At one point we did and They all had the opportunity to introduce a war powers resolution. Sanders was the only one who did it A going back to two thousand sixteen when he was Challenging Hillary Clinton. It was clear that his approach to using military power was going to be far more prudent and reasoned then was Hillary Clinton's And and so in that sense yeah I think I think many of the things that Senator Senator Sanders says is they make sense to me But I frankly don't know collectible In that's not my call anyway so we'll see how that plays out. Indeed Andrew Base. The book is the age of illusions. How America's squandered wandered its Cold War? Victory thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Thank you bye bye bye bye we are you know and I think we we talked about this on Friday. We're we're just basically waiting to see what Iran decides to do and then we get a better notion of just how you you know what the intentions of the trump administration are And I I don't even know if there is a unified. I don't even know if like you. Can you can say hey that any more than you can say like. What are the intentions of a monkey? Honestly like there. There could be certain reactions in the moment but to to say that. There's a cohesive plan here seems unlikely and We're going to you hear from from some of the Iranian leadership. In a moment. We have some video. Play that in the fun half. That's here wants to do it. superfund stuff but you know the responsible reason leadership that a lot of you have been looking for well in many many respects. I mean it sounds facetious. But it's not and they are and if their actions are art consistent with their rhetoric. They understand what they're dealing with and who they're dealing with and they specifically they're dealing with the president president that there is no this is not two thousand and two there has not been a the country's not in a state of shock following a You know a a a a major terrorist attack There has not been a eighteen month program of demonizing Iran and justifying an attack on them and so they know that their their their competition is really just about a half a dozen people people in the White House. And it's quite possible they they understand that like if we hold off a couple of months to Saint GonNa help trump in in terms of impeachment and they must be aware. There's no reason why they can't if they had their own little majority report they'd be right now going like these probably doing this. Just a key you know. Get Impeachment Richmond Office back in Pompeii pushing it because he's a lunatic and experts is get the historic options have invested yet and Raytheon. I mean whatever I didn't keep track mcvay but I missed a there was a twitter thread. Where a guy said you know? I'm on an Acela to DC and there are literally guys in the cafe car. Doing their pitches pitches for defense contracts right like there. I mean people should not forget the very crude version of all the stuff that goes on with this. But I mean if I'm in Iran and I'm thinking like we're GonNa hit them but let's let's wait a month two months see when seve. Nancy Pelosi doesn't doesn't bring those holds off on those articles of impeachment because I mean really in many respects if you wanted to do damage trump and you knew that was basically what you were doing. That's that's what you would do and to be clear. Hit Them. I mean we'll see but With the in this case I would honestly one hundred percent. I believe the the the supreme leader which is like like a funny translation but the they are not when they hit us. They're not talking about you. Know this bill de blasios nonsense about New York is on high alert. You're talking about `Bout Straits Har- Mu. Well that's important to clarify to clarify the end. Just really quick going about two. Two thousand two There was an open doorway with Iran. They helped us in the initial stages because they loathe the Taliban and a lot of people today who make a living on freaking out about Donald Trump's twitter threat are precisely the people that smack them in the face with the axis of evil speech when we could have had a full rapproachment approach Mont with them There's an easier way of saying that David from David from well there are other people's sides trump to literally right that speech right. On General Sulejmani was also involved in the coordination Afghanistan and also been fighting Isis which apparently was up until a couple of days ago. Very big priority for. There's one of the reasons. He has some popularity in Iraq so considering what we know about Iran's relationship to trump impeachment etcetera do you think. I think that it's possible that say a truly anti imperialist candidate gets elected to president gets elected president and could reverse this or will it be too late. I think Weigel himself said I was very anti-war so this could help Bernier. I think it helps. That's that's the thing I think. It helps Biden and burning Because anybody who is interested in sort of like the The traditional take on a war. Luke says looks at Buda judge. Maybe there with maybe there with Warren or maybe a Buddha judge or whoever it is and they say well I'm going to go with the real deal deal and that is Joe Biden domain but punch you ran in the face but I imagine there are some people who support even Biden and Buddha Judge Warren Who are like wait? This is a total mess up. And there's a there's such a clear choice it seems to me between You know in terms the perspective on this and if you want one then I think you go to Biden if you want the other you go to Bernie so I think they're both gonNA benefit from this. Everybody else is now. I don't I'm not going to benefit equally. I don't know my question was would they be able to reverse it though if the war machine has already been started like. Would they a be able to get us out of a conflict with around. I'm an yes. Maybe it's such a long on the I mean and it's such a long period of time but like if they went in all things being equal as of the situation as it is now how yes they could because there's not really that many things that they would need to do to cool that situation and also a not convinced that this isn't the type of situation that there's plenty of really crazy people that wants but there's some people in that same establishment for lack of a better word that understand saying this is incredibly stupid. Oh and we should just add because this came up Jamie you brought this up the other day. On Friday that Bernie Sanders is received more money money from military personnel. That you know the actual soldiers or airmen marines or A UH see people. I guess you should call them now. Arab people And I was wondering if it was just within the context of the Democratic primary. Sorry and apparently it's not know. Charley was Bernie. Sanders comes in more than doubles his nearest nearest rivals people to judge and then Donald Trump who of course was did go to a military boarding school so that Hi Matt say unofficial CIA operation. All right quip totals. Yeah what about. CIA Contributions Asians Dijbouti Judge State aid contributions of folks just a reminder. It is your support that makes this show possible. We cannot do it without you. You can support the show by going to join the majority report dot Com when you do not only do we give you the free show free of commercials but we also give you extra content every day and you're helping us build things like The AM quickey which Thousands of you enjoy now we would love more of you to check it out so that we can start to pay for it but it's really in. Many respects are members who support that Experiment we're going to try it for another I Dunno extended period of time. See if it can catch fire fire and at the very least support. What we're doing here but you as a member make that possible? Also if you're watching on youtube subscribe I tb. That apparently is a good thing to do. You can also go to just coffee. Dot Co up fair trade coffee tea or chocolate. Use The coupon code majority get ten percent sent off and don't forget that am quickey. It's available on our APP you can go to majority APP DOT COM. Get the APP you can. I am the show via the APP. You can call the show via the APP APP and you have the am quickey at your fingertips. But I just clicking on that. Am Q. Tab in the APP you'll see it when when we get there you can just subscribe to. AM quickey through a quickie DOT com. Today is Monday tomorrow is Tuesday Michael. What is on the DAX docket dotted deck Drew Mikhail. Who is a fellow? At Queen's the university does a lot of work in conflict zones and particular amount of time in Lebanon is going to be talking about the escalation elation against Iran and then Following up the show. He did on Friday which focused on all of the dynamics arising out of the assassination specifically drew and I are going to look at how the spillover effect will impact the emerging social movements that we saw in the Middle East over the past several months particularly in Lebanon but also so Iraq and Iran. And maybe also talk about Turkey's deploying troops to Libya and they're going to be fighting an enhanced proxy war with Russia. So that's another one that will people a little bit of an Ion Matt. Crispin is also going to join us a whole bunch of other stuff I also just real quick WANNA the Ad February Seventh Bell House live. Show grab your tickets and Apropos of today's show. The last illicit history documentary we did for patrons was on the history of the Rand Corporation. which is sort of a good light on how the The types of intelligence establishment that base of its was talking about was formed after World War Two and the thinking that that went into it so patriots dot com slash. GS WERE TBS DOT FM to get everything Jamie this week on the Anti Fatah. I barely remember. What's in this episode? So it because we recorded it before the break in my mind's been raised but I do remember thinking that we did a good job. We didn't episode called. I love the twenty tens where where we recapped an entire decade for massive three parter with very funny Jake Florez Simone Norman as guests helping us out. I do recall corrective to a v H one show. Indeed I mean I don't love the twenty tenths. I think the title was meant to be a little bit ironic ironic on our part. It's just so much crap but there's some good stuff in there too. We talked about occupy Wall Street the Arab spring which house at sea pong long cultural cultural milestones. And the fattening. And somehow tie it altogether so check that out Patriot dot com slash the Antifa anti-fat Matt coming up on literary hangover. I'm going to be reading a poem tomorrow. I'm not going to be here actually. So the factor by ebenezer cooke seventeen eight poem about at how Americans are also like cheating tobacco farmers and illiterate judges and stuff like that. Let timeless lessons actually. So what you do on your day off you go home you re read poetry. I recited question among other things. So yeah that'll it'll be out. The the recording of the poem will be out this week and then new episode will be out on the weekend. I folks six six to five seven thirty nine twenty is the number. See You who in the fun half left. His vast Jamie and I may have habit disagreement. Yeah you can't just say whatever you want about people just because you're rich. I have an absolute right. Mark them on Youtube up there buggy whipping bought. I am not get your employer negatively. I'm sorry I didn't mean nervous. A little bit upset riled up. Yeah maybe you should rethink your defensive that you're walking idiots we're going to get rid of you all right dude dude dude dude dude dude you want to smoke his joint. Yes they feel like you are a dinosaur shit exactly. I'm happy now to win win. Win Win Win Hell Yeah now listen to me two three four five times eight four seven six five Oh one four five seven thirty eight fifty six twenty seven one five eight three point nine billion. Wow don't you see. Why don't you get a real job instead of doing only left-wing limbaugh everybody's taking their dumb juice dance? Dance the answer Paul at my first host coil. CPA between a woman and hoping that more moves to my repertoire. All I have to dip in this world buying yes. This is a perfect moment. No wait what do you make a million dollars com. You're not paying US me fuck you. You fucking liberal belong South Park take quick break. Take a moment to talk to some a libertarian. Dot they're whatever circle you want to drive to the library. What you're talking about his Jabirjabir thick feeling more chill already? Donald Trump can kiss all of our asses. Sam Hey Andy Ready to go to America. Yes yes wow. Wow that's unbelievable guy's got a Louis Murray's element to flesh out a little bit. I mean look. It's a free speech issue. If you don't like me thank you for calling into the majority report damn will be with you shortly.

president US Iran Donald Trump Iraq America Andrew Base George George Herbert Walker B Suleyman Sumani Congress Saudi Arabia trump Senate Senator Senator Sanders Sulamani Afghanistan Raytheon Sulamani
The ADA has disabled the disabled for 30 years  Ep 596

The Peter Schiff Show Podcast

1:13:07 hr | 4 months ago

The ADA has disabled the disabled for 30 years Ep 596

"Leadership. Thirty Years Ago Today on July Twenty Sixth Nineteen Ninety. George Herbert Walker, Bush. Signed the Americans with disabilities act otherwise known as the ADA into law. And like all bad laws. This law was conceived at least in theory with good intentions, and you know what they say about the road to hell. It's paved with good intentions, and there's probably no better example than paving a road to hell than the Americans with disability. ACT The motivation, supposedly for the act was to make it easier for people who had work limiting disabilities to get a job right after all, if people are not working because of a disability, but if there is some potential accommodation that employers could make that. That might enable these otherwise nonworking disabled individuals to get into the workforce. Then they can improve their lot in life they can get the benefits of employment, and the economy would get the benefits of of their efforts and their productivity, and of course you know there's always a movement on the left to grant special privileges to people under the guise of civil rights, and here is another group of entitled Americans. Right Americans with disabilities are now. They cannot be discriminated against they must be. Treated the same as everybody else, and therefore, we're going to require employers to accommodate disabled workers, so they too will have the ability to get a job, and so employers will have to accommodate their disabilities because they have a right. That's their civil right. Disabled people have a right to a job. Therefore, employers have a responsibility to make sure that they provide reasonable accommodations to allow the disabled to work. So that was the thinking, and if you go back to nineteen ninety. About fifty percent, maybe slightly more of the people who had worked limiting. Disabilities were in the workforce, so the other half were. Not Working. And the idea was. Let's get these guys. Into the labor force so they pass the American disabilities act which basically required employers to make these accommodations, and it also empowered. Individuals to file lawsuits against employers who fail to provide the accommodations as provided by law. So, what was the effect of this well intentioned law well as I, said in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, about fifty percent of the people, a little more who had these disabilities had jobs today that number has dropped to fewer than twenty percent, and in fact, almost immediately following the passage of the Americans with Disability Act. You saw a drop in employment among disabled individuals, and that decline has been steadily ongoing for the past thirty years. And it is not completely unrelated to the Americans with Disabilities Act. I mean it's not just a random coincidence. That congress passes the Americans with Disabilities Act, and then people with disabilities have a mass exodus from the workforce, and now they can't find jobs, yes. Labor Force. Participation has gone down in general for the entire population, so you might expect disabled people to be caught up in that trend, but not to this degree, the degree to which disabled workers have left the workforce is much faster than the overall population at it is a direct result of the Americans with disabilities act you see before the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed. You know people who had disabilities. They were able to get jobs because employers recognized that they may have needed. Some special accommodations and many employers were willingly providing those accommodations, not because they were required to by law, but because they just decided to do it either they fought. The worker with the disability was the best person for the job, and they knew would pay off if they made some upfront investments in whatever kind of adoptions were needed to allow this qualified person who just happens to have a disability to be able to. Do the job and I'm sure to a lot of people do feel bad for somebody who unfortunately is suffering from a disability I. Mean Human Beings are generally compassionate about other human beings, and the same goes for employers I mean. Employers are are humans, too. And when you see somebody with disability, you know there, but for the grace of God, a lot of people feel some kind of moral obligation, and they feel good about themselves to the extent that they can make some accommodations in the workplace to enable and otherwise disabled person who might not be able to work to work, so this was going on because people with these disabilities working well, what changed? Why did employers who were willing to accommodate? People with disabilities suddenly decided they didn't want to do it, and it was because of the Americans with disabilities, act. Because now you are required by law to make these accommodations whether or not. The end result is that the investment in the combinations payoff in terms of the the productivity of the worker, but the problem is not only are required to make what may be very expensive. Combinations having to alter things in your office or your business, but the employees were then empowered to sue you. If they didn't like the accommodations that you made if they didn't think they, they met the strict requirements of the law, they could sue you. In which case now you're defending yourself from a lawsuit. Your now obligated to pay legal bills fact you have to pay the legal bills of your employees. Who Sues you? And if you lose the suit, then you also may have to pay damages to the employees. You may have to make these expensive alterations of your. Business and so rather than subject themselves to that risk. Employers that otherwise may have hired disabled workers basically stopped doing it right. They just didn't want to take the risk, so the minute somebody in a wheelchair or some other. You know disability they. They rolled in for an interview whatever? You're like whoa suit. It's like they have a gigantic neon sign above their head. That's flashing lawsuit lawsuit lawsuit, and so you're not going to hire small businesses don't WanNa get sued. It's hard enough to operate a small business without having to defend yourself against the lawsuit. You know a lot of these small businesses. The owners don't necessarily make that much money. Maybe they make seventy, five, thousand, one, hundred, thousand, two, hundred, thousand, a year operating their business. Can they afford the spend fifty grand on legal bills to defend themselves in an ADA lawsuit? No, and in fact even if somebody continued to hire the disabled or hired somebody the minute they got sued the first time the minute they got their first eighty a lawsuit. It's like that's it I'll never hire somebody with a disability again because they learned their lesson because they can't afford to take the risk now. Major companies big employers. Okay, they can afford to do it. They can just chalk it up to the cost of doing business if they have to make these accommodations. If they have to pay legal fees, they can absorb it because they have the economies of scale, but these small employers. This isn't cost of doing business. Legal bills can put them out of business, and that's where a lot of the jobs are created. You Know I. Think more jobs in America are created by small businesses rather than by by fortune five hundred businesses. So the net effect of law that was designed to make it easier for people with disabilities to get jobs, actually had the opposite effect. It made it harder for those people to get jobs, and so the labor force participation plunged, and the reason that is harder is because you increase the cost of employing people with disabilities, not only the direct cost of having to. Make the accommodations. But the risk of additional litigation costs and the best way to avoid getting up in a lawsuit this don't hire people with disabilities now the first thing people are going to say as well you can't. You just get sued for that right? If you're not hiring people with disabilities, can't somebody sue you for discriminating and the answer is they can, but it's very difficult to prove right especially if you're a small business, I mean. How many disabled workers are you supposed to employ I? Mean if you don't have any disabled workers, so you have five people that work for you and none of them have disability I mean. That doesn't necessarily prove that you're discriminating against people with disabilities. It's very hard. To win a case. Against a small employer. Where you're, you've never been hired and a lot of these attorneys. Those are not the case that they want. They don't want to sue somebody who's never employed a person with people generally get sued and it doesn't just apply to the ADA. Employment things is when you do employ. Somebody is a current or former employees. Those are the ones that sue right. They either sue because you provide them with a a hostile work environment. There's something going on on the job that they feel has violated their rights, so if you employ a disabled person, and then there's something on the job that is not up to code to accommodate them, or if somebody gets fired right then they can sue and they can claim. You fired me because of. My race or my sexual orientation are by or my disability, so where employers take on the maximum risk of being sued is after they hire somebody so just refusing to hire somebody at all is a very low risk thing to do, and so that's what employers do. They just don't hire people with disabilities. They just can't afford it and they don't WanNa take the legal liability before the existed. They did it. And so a law. Produces exactly the opposite of what its intention was, so the obvious question that you may be thinking as well. Why hasn't it been repealed? Seen a steadily decline in. Employment Opportunities for the disabled. Clearly, this is hurting the disabled because we've limited their ability to get jobs. We've also hurt the economy because a lot of disabled workers who might otherwise be working who were working prior to the Ada and who could be working now, but for the Ada they're not working, so the economy has lost the benefit of their productivity right instead of contributing to society. They're not working at all. They're just drawing down benefit so clearly. You have a law that has done so much damage to the very people that it was. was supposed to help. Why is that law on the books for thirty years and in fact I'm sure there's GonNa be a lot of coverage of the thirty year anniversary of the eighty eight, and all of it is going to be good, right? This was a good thing i. mean we we now we disabled or no longer second class citizens. They have full rights right. There are going to be celebrating it. We're all going to be a patting ourselves on the back. HOW COMPASSIONATE WE ARE CARING! We are that we have the eighty eight. And of course, if anybody like me, tries to point out that the actual problems that are direct consequence of the will your heartless. You don't care. You're bad person, right you. You don't care about the disabled. And that really gets to the heart of the matter, the reason that they will never repeal the law is because this is how the left. This is how liberals feel good about themselves, and this is how they signal to the world how virtuous they are by showing their support for these kind of seemingly compassionate. Legislation, yes, how could you not care about people with disabilities? I mean come on. I. Mean They're already? You know it's unfortunate enough. They got dealt a bad hand in life. What whatever reason either by birth or by accident? You have somebody who's got a physical disability. How can you not care about a person like that? How can you not show some compassion and some empathy and the way you prove that is you support the Americans with Disabilities Act, but then you have to actually ignore the consequences of that act. You have to ignore the fact that the very people that you claim to care about have actually been hurt by the legislation. Legislation that you passed in the name of compassion, but they never really delve into that you see liberals don't care about consequences doesn't matter to them. They just care about intention and how they look by embracing the the program. Look, it happens all the time. Look at the minimum wage law in particular. Look at American Samoa. I've talked about this. In fact I wrote about it in what am I books? But this is another great example of well intentioned laws, and the opposite effect I was watching sixty minutes one day, and they were doing a story on American Samoa Football Right. There's some football players that were coming out of American Samoa. And as I'm watching it. They mentioned that. There's a depression in Samoa. How bad the economy is! They have very high unemployment and I'm like well why what's going on in American small? I hadn't even heard about it. And and the sixty minutes story just kind of glossed over the fact that there was this big depression in American Samoa, and so I wanted to know why, and so I read up on it, and I found out that a couple years earlier, and this was in two, thousand and seven. Congress passed the fair wage act. Oh, that sounds good. The fair wage act, and what the Fairway Jack did is it said that all of the US territories which would include American Samoa, also Puerto, Rico Riley but American Samoa. All these territories would have to bring their minimum wage up to the same level in the United States at seven, twenty, five an hour, regardless of the fact, that wages in general in American Samoa were on a much lower scale. Than, they were in the United States. This law demanded that they have the same minimum wage law in Samoa. Of course, the politicians who are behind it right. They all feel good about themselves Oh. We don't WANNA split people. We want to give everybody the same protection. We WanNA. Make sure that people in American Samoa also get seven dollars and twenty five cents an hour. Well the result of this well intentioned law was massive unemployment in Samoa. Now they didn't have to go up to seven twenty five right away whereas you know gradual increases, but the first couple of increases were enough that the two largest employers on the island started shutting down and laying people off, and that was starkist tuna and chicken to the see the biggest employer in American Samoa was canning tuna. And as soon as they required higher wages. They had to start firing workers because they couldn't afford to pay the higher wages now it's not like these tuna. Companies are mean people. They just don't want to pay higher wages. They couldn't because the customers didn't want to pay higher prices. If the tuna companies raised the prices of their tuna high enough to offset the higher minimum wage then. People would buy from our competitors because you can can tuna in other parts of the world and other islands that didn't have that minimum wage, and so they would have been at a competitive disadvantage, were they to remain in American Samoa paying an inflated wage, so they had to do what they only thing they could do to maintain their businesses and stay competitive. Is they had to? To fire, bunch of workers, and so that's why you had all this unemployment, but it actually had another impact. You see when boats would take the canned tuna from Samoa to the US now. You had this big ship in the US that needed to come back to Samoa to pick up more tuna so on the way back. There were products that the American Samoans were important. But the minute they were no longer sending tuna to the US. They didn't have the ships to come back so now the ships had to go one way with stuff and leave empty, and so the cost of importing goods into Samoa shot up dramatically, so not only did the minimum wage put all these samoans out of work, but it also dramatically increase the cost of living for even the people who didn't lose their jobs, so they decimated the entire simone economy, and of course that had a ripple effects, and then other people lost their jobs and the government of American Samoa. Want this minimum wage. They tried to stop it. They begged. With congressman not to do this, right? The people from Samoa did not want the higher minimum wage but American politicians. They didn't give a damn. What the people in Samoa wanted all they cared about was how they looked to their constituents, and they didn't WanNa look like they were bad. People by not favoring this fair wage act, and and the poor people in Samoa, so they were willing to sacrifice the poor people of Samoa so that they can look good, and they can feel good about themselves now they eventually amended the act I mean there was so much economic decimation in Samoa that by twenty, fifteen, they amended the fair wage act, and they extended the time period. Where Samoa would have to bring us minimum wage up to seven, twenty five, or of course if we ended up. Raising it to fifteen then they're gonNA. have to go to fifteen, but they have a longer time period to get there. So that's not as terrible, but what they should've done is repealed it completely because it's done tremendous damage, but but they don't care so again. One of the reasons that they will never repeal this law is because it. It would violate everything that the left believes the symbolism over substance, so they're willing to sacrifice the very people. They claim to care about so they can maintain that illusion a that they. They care and so the American disabilities act won't go away because nobody has the guts to oppose it, because it looks so bad politically the minute you try to talk against it, you're a horrible evil person. You're one of the bad guys, so you have to just congratulate yourself on the fact that you support it and that we have this law, but there's another reason that it will never get repealed. And that is the trial lawyers. The, main beneficiaries in fact, really the only beneficiaries of the American's Disabilities Act are lawyers. They have cleaned up. There is an entire cottage industry now of lawyers work with certain people with disabilities that routinely shakedown and extort money from small business owners all over the country. And since these lawyers are making so much money off the ADA. They donate a lot of their take to the politicians. Write in campaign contributions. And, so they're basically bribing these politicians to continue the because that's their their gravy, train their meal ticket. and. Where are these suits? Focus Right? It's not in the employment sector because again as I've said. A lot of businesses just don't hire people with disabilities, so it's rare that you get a lawsuit from A. Worker against the employer because the employers were smart enough not to hire them the only one I actually member reading about and this was a problem because. The the place of business it was a strip club, and so just going into the script club. You could see whether or not. The workplace accommodated the disabled because the workplace is the stage right, and so everybody can see that you don't have to be an employee to know whether or not. The company has complied with eighty eight I. Remember reading this lawsuit I. Remember laughing about it, so they filed lawsuit I. Forget the name of the Strip club. But. What they're deal. was there how they marketed themselves? Is the strippers stripped in showers right? So they had these big polls, and then the strippers stood on top of these polls, and there was a shower up there, and so they would pull the lever. Whatever in the water would come down. Maybe that was kind of inspired by flashdance or something. I remember when she. Drops the water on herself, but they were. They were stripped answer showers. And I. Read this Article That the Strip club got sued. Because this. That the strippers stood on in order to strip under a shower that those polls were not wheelchair accessible meaning. If there was a stripper in a wheelchair, that stripper could not get on the top of that poll to do a dance under a shower. And I'm just thinking how ridiculous this is because if you are in a wheelchair, you're not going to be a stripper. Let alone a stripper in a shower. I mean look. I feel bad for people that are in wheelchairs. I mean yeah, obviously, but when you're in wheelchairs. Obviously, there's going to be some limitations. On the things you can do and one of the things that you really can't do is be a striptease dancer. I mean maybe I mean. Maybe there's a there's a fetish of guys out there that Wanna see girls stripping in wheelchairs, but Most guys want their strippers to be able to stand up I mean most of the thing you're doing. When you're dancing strip tease. You gotta be standing up. You gotta you just be in a wheelchair trying to be a stripper. The lawsuit was filed by an actual stripper in a wheelchair. WHO wanted a job? I doubt there was a woman in a wheelchair who wanted to strip on that shower I think there was some lawyer that happened to go to that Strip club, and he saw an opportunity to shake down the owner by claiming. Hey, that poll isn't wheelchair accessible right? So that was one of the suits I read, but almost all of the legal actions that have stemmed from the ADA are not about employers, not accommodating their workers. It's about businesses, not accommodating their customers. The customers. And even if you know, the customers aren't paying right, even services that you're providing for free. This is where the real damage is being done to the US economy. Because the ADA is dramatically driving up the cost of operating a small business. Small businesses now have to spend a lot of money in order to. You have to spend a lot of money to make sure that you're completely compliant. In case you get some disabled customers, even if you never have any disabled customers, it doesn't matter right whether or not you're gonNA. Have them you have to make all these accommodations just in case, and so they're very expensive, and so the businesses would acts as a barrier to entry if you can't afford. To have a Ada compliant business then you can't start it, and of course once you have it now. You're going to get bombarded by lawsuits. You know even if you tried your best to be compliant, the rules are so precise that you can easily slip up and you do something wrong, and that's where the lawyers are out there preying on small business owners because they send. Their partners who have some type disability that they go out to all these restaurants and bars, and they're not going there because they want a meal. They're going there because they're looking for a lawsuit and they go there with a tape. Measure Right, and they WANNA make sure. Is the counter height exactly the right way or they go into the parking lot? Do they have the right number of handy cap spaces and they'll measure the size of the space because they have to be a certain size because they have to accommodate vans that people in wheelchairs might be. The whole thing is ridiculous. You Know I. Remember I used to go to this beach in. California. I used it was a dog beach in Malibu off a pch. and. The way you got down to the beach is you had scaled down a bunch of rocks? It was like a cliff. There were no stairs right. It didn't have to be. I guess wheelchair comply because there was nothing there it was you had to go down these rocks, and even I was a little scared, sometimes climbing down these rocks that I might slip. It was a steep grade, and it was a big drop, but would always use the piss me off. Is that when I got there? There was always like five different parking spaces handicap spaces that nobody ever parked in, and it wasn't a big lot to begin with so a lot of times. I would get there and I would have to park out on. A busy street because there was no space in the parking lot, except there was always these handicaps spaces that people were afraid to park in. It's a very expensive ticket, right? You ever get a ticket for going into a handicapped space. Those are expensive tickets, so nobody would park there, but all I was thinking. Is What a dump place for handicapped parking space, because nobody who's handicapped has a prayer of getting to that beach. If you're in a wheelchair, it is impossible for you to get to the beach yet, they. They had to provide handicapped parking spaces. Anyway, it doesn't matter if nobody with handicaps, are there you still have to set aside these days? So you've got these lawyers that are scouring the country looking for tiny violations of the ADA act, and then they file a lawsuit and a lot of times. The owners don't even fix the problem. They just pay off a lawyer and hope he goes away right I mean it's just blackmail just shakedown money right, and that's the main reason that the law is still on the books. I mean. A really funny example I mean it's funny, but it's not funny. It's sad. A good friend of mine owns a lot of commercial real estate. And One of his properties, he rents out to starbucks restaurant. And I forget if it's owned by the Franchisee or it's just a corporate starbucks, but anyway. He gets served suit. starbucks is being sued and he's being to, because he's the landlord, and it's from a person who went into the starbucks, and this person was hard of hearing. That's his disability as they came into starbucks and the starbucks. Play music. In the restaurant so while you're there ordering your coffee or drinking your coffee, you can hear music in the background, so this guy gets in there and he asks for. This special hearing aid that he can wear while he's in the starbucks so that he can hear this music while he's getting his coffee. Just like all the other people who don't have a hearing disability and the guys behind the counter said you know we don't have that I'm sorry. We don't have that that earpiece for you, and so they were sued for. For not having the earpiece apparently, if you're gonNA play music, you have to make sure that everybody can hear it even if you're not charging for the music, right, it's not like people, are they're they're getting coffee there? There are still able to sell the people with hearing disabilities coffee. They just can't hear the music in the background while they're ordering it. It and now there's a lawsuit, and of course you know. How inefficient is this to require every single restaurant to carry these hearing aids on the off chance that somebody who's hard of hearing comes in and wants to hear the music. How about if this guy takes responsibility from self? If you know that your hard of hearing and its that important that when? When you go into a starbucks that you hear the music by yourself, a hearing aid and carry it around. Don't expect every restaurant. You go to to stock one just because you have some special right to buy coffee, you don't these kids. These are not rights. These are about privileges that are being bestowed on people, which then put responsibilities on other people. I. Mean What about all the the elevators that have music I mean in theory, then any anybody with a hearing problem could just sue any building that has an elevator that has music in it. On the basis of the fact, they can hear it now. What actually happens with a lot of these? Suits. Is the way they the way they work is? If you provide a service to anybody, then you must provide it to everybody including people with disabilities, so if the starbucks just decides to have no music at all. Well, then that's okay right because now nobody can hear it. It's just that if you let anybody hear it. You have to allow deaf people I mean. What are the things that this is done has caused a lot of motels to. Fill in their swimming pools with cement. Because it was cheaper than making them wheelchair accessible right, because now all of these small motels all over the nation to the extent that they have a swimming pool. They need to make that swimming pool wheelchair accessible. and which is so ridiculous because I mean? How many times do you check into a motel? Do you actually use the swimming pool? I've stayed in a lot of motels over my life. Not once have I ever take a swim in the pool. I've never swam the pool. In fact, the only time I ever see anybody in a pool is their kids right? Kids are in the swimming pools. So, how many people in wheelchairs really wanted us? The the Motel Swimming Pool probably very few. But the cost of buying one of these expensive contraptions I think it's like ten thousand dollars navy to buy one of these things that can put a wheelchair into the swimming pool, or if you out of your wheelchair, but you know what I heard in talking to one of these. Owners one day is. Your insurance rates go up when you put these things in, and then what happens, is kids play on them? They use them as diving boards. They get hurt and so not only. Do you have to? Pay The cost of putting in this wheelchair accessible contraption, but now you have a higher insurance because people get injured on it, not the people in wheelchairs. They're not even using it. It's just the kids that treat it like a jungle gym or something. So what ends up happening? Is these motels just shut down the swimming pool? And now there's no swimming pool, and if there's no swimming pool, then people with wheelchairs can't complain right. They can't sue. So, We'd they don't accomplish making the swimming pools accessible to people in wheelchairs. They just make them unaccessible to everybody else. That is the result I. Mean. What the hell kind of victory is that? Look what people in wheelchairs should do? If swimming in a motel pool. Is that important to you right? If that's your main priority, it's not too bad. It's not to shower. You just WANNA. Make sure that you have consumed that pool. How if you go online and you find the motel? That has a wheelchair accessible swimming pool, and that's the one you stay in. How about that? How simple is that? You know there will be a market for people in wheelchairs. Right businessman know that there are some consumers that. That are in wheelchairs, and they will want that business look I went to school and UC Berkeley UC Berkeley was a very friendly place for people in wheelchairs, and there are people in wheelchairs all over the place. They were moving to Berkeley because they knew that all these stores and shot they were catering to people in wheelchairs. That's how the free market works. You don't have a right to stay in every motel. You know. Find the motel that works for you look. I. I have some friends who are a kosher. Jews right very religious Jews, and they keep kosher, and that means that the food has to be prepared a certain way and a lot of the people who are kosher I mean because their parents were coacher. That's the faith that's how they were raised, and so they're observing their religion right now. That means that they're not that. Many restaurants that people who are kosher can eat at. Now what if the Americans with disabilities act applied here or not just disabilities, or just said it was religious freedom, and they said Hey, every restaurant has to have a kosher kitchen. Why. It'd be ridiculous. How how many people are Kosher? Not that many, but what people who do who are kosher? They know which restaurants have kosher kitchens, and and that's where they go. It's no big deal. Right or think about people that have. Really big feet, right? Let's say you're a guy and you gotta size fourteen shoe. Big Guy with a big foot right now. Do you expect that every time you go into a shoe store? They're going to have every shoe in a size fourteen why I mean the shoes stores don't stock those sizes because they hardly ever sell them. What are they want all that inventory for just on the off chance. That bigfoot happens a walk into their store right so you can't expect every shoe store, so you know you. Do you go to the big and tall places? There are stores that specialize in large sizes or extra small sizes. People. Go there you can't. Can't say just because I have big feet. Every shoe store in America has stock size fourteen. Just in case I decided to come in. You don't have that right just because somebody opens up a store. Your have a right to go there. It's not your store. It's their store. They conserve whatever market they want. And yes, I feel badly if people are in wheelchairs, but that doesn't mean that every single business everywhere in the country has to spend all sorts of money, just in case, somebody with disability happens to walk in or role in to that store. That is nonsense. And of course, it's not just the business owners they get stuck with the bill of Being Ada compliant. It's all the customers because at the end of the day, the businesses have to charge their customers more money right most of whom have no disabilities, but now they're going to be financially disabled. Because all of the products, all of the goods and services that are now being sold are GonNa be sold at a higher price because the owner now has to recoup the cost of complying with Ada. Even if none of his customers are actually disabled in the example that I gave about bigfoot with the size fourteen shoe. I mean what if? That was considered a disability. If having a really big foot was a disability and all the shoes stores had to stock all these big sizes, right? Who Do you think would pay for that right? If there's not a lot of people that are actually buying the size fourteen shoe you know who's going to have to pay for it. The guy that's buying size nine or size tan because if you're GONNA force shoe stores to stack this big inventory of shoes that nobody is buying, but they have to buy shoes. Shoes anyway well. How do they make up for the cost? What they have to do is charge higher prices on the shoes that are being sold so at the end of the day. What happens is nobody is really buying these big shoes. They're just sitting there, but all the normal size shoes are having to sell at higher prices because they are the only way the guy who owns the shoe store can recoup the cost a being compliant with this law that requires them to sell shoes that nobody's buying. So all of these restaurants and bars and coffee shops and motels and miniature golf courses, if they haven't been shut down or any of these businesses that have to make all of these investments in order to be wheelchair compliant, and then who have to pay. Legal bills by frivolous lawsuits that are filed by lawyers whose only goal is a lawsuit. There's no actual legitimate a handicapped customer. There's just a lawyer utilizing a handicap individual to try to generate a lawsuit, so all of those costs the costs to. Build out the ADA compliant facility and to pay all the lawyers. The shakedown money the end of the day. It's the customers of those businesses who end up paying cost in the form of higher prices. I read another article about all these miniature golf courses around the country that are shutting down and the reason they're shutting down is because they couldn't make them. Will chair accessible and so because they couldn't make them wheelchair accessible. Eh, shut it down so again. They didn't accomplish allowing people in wheelchairs to play miniature golf. They just made sure that nobody played miniature golf. And that supposedly represents success right? It's an abject failure, but that success in the eyes of government you know one of the more recent examples of this is this lawsuit? Filed against I, think porn hub, or you porn by somebody who is deaf or hard of hearing, and they're suing because they can't hear what the porn actors are saying in the movies I mean obviously I mean a I mean really gives a damn what they're saying I. mean they don't really have scripts I don't think. and. A lot of is probably just moaning and stuff like that so I mean you can pretty much figure out what they're saying. But. The guy was suing because they didn't have closed caption right. He wanted to see and I guess if you had the closed caption, I mean most people would probably turn it off because it's probably getting in the way of what they wanna see. They don't want to see the rewriting. They WANNA see the the actor actress. But. Anyway they file a lawsuit. I mean look again. How many websites are out there? Do people who are hard of hearing have a constitutional right to go to any porn website. They want and expect it to be close captioned especially when they're not even charging, I mean a lot of these sites of free so basically what they're saying is. If you're going to provide somebody with free porn, you also have to provide them with free subtitles. Otherwise. We're going to get sued, but sued for what you're not even charging any money, but you know I'm sure. There are porn sites out there. That have closed caption. Just go to those. It's the same stuff. What difference does it make every single? Porn site doesn't have to have closed captions just find the ones that do and just watch those right. How simple as that, but no? Now there is a lawsuit. Nobody is being injured by the fact that every porn site doesn't have subtitles because there are some that do you know it also reminds me of the lawsuit. This ADA related this is. Because the sexual orientation, but the the case where this. religious man was sued because he didn't want to bake a gay wedding cake and the only reason he knew it was going to be a gay wedding cake was because the couple wanted him to put the two male figures on the cake right. Obviously they could've just put those figures on themselves after it was done, but they made a point of telling the guy that they you know. This was four gay wedding, and they wanted these gay figures on the top of the cake and this guy who was a religious baker, basically said you know. I'm very religious, I. Just don't think that this is right I think it's a sin, and I would prefer not to bake a cake, knowing that the cake is going to be part of a ceremony with which I oppose and so the guys immediately sued now the point is. Were the were the. Gay couple really inconvenienced at all by this. No, in fact, they probably called a hundred. Bakers maybe more to find a one acre. That wouldn't take them. The cake I mean after all. If you are a baker, you're in the business of baking cakes. A wedding cake like the holy grail of cakes. I mean you're like waiting for a wedding cake, right? That's like the Jackpot right I mean it's a big cake. I'm sure these things are very expensive. Right so like I got a wedding cake order. I'm sure that this Baker was very disappointed in having the turn down a wedding cake, but his religious convictions were so strong that he was willing to turn down the money because of his own beliefs, and which is fine. Fine because they coulda had any one of hundreds and hundreds of other bakers baking a cake. In fact, I'm sure that a lot of other religious bakers you know who objected to gay weddings didn't object to getting paid to bake the cake, and they would have done it anyway right, but most bakers a problem. They had to go out of their way to find a baker who wouldn't bake and then file a lawsuit. You know this whole thing is is is a shakedown. Just because somebody has a bakery, you'll have a right to force them to bake a cake. Right? Slavery was abolished. The Thirteenth Amendment Abolish Slavery. If you'RE GONNA, force somebody to bake you a cake against their will. Isn't that involuntary servitude? Force somebody to do something that they don't want to do. And that's really what the American disability act boils down to. Is You're you're trying to force businesses to do things against their will? You're forcing them to do things that they don't want to do. Look, you can decide if you want to open up a business and you want to cater to people with disabilities. Then that's what you do. If you don't want to cater to people with disabilities, then you don't have to. It is a free competitive marketplace. If you want to be the hotel. Hotel that has a wheelchair accessible swimming pool. Then you go after that market and you advertise online. You're in a wheelchair. You ought to swim. I got your pool right there on the Internet. You know if you WANNA YOU WANNA be a kosher restaurant. You advertise. You want to stock size fourteen shoes. You do it right. This is free market. Yes, is it a little bit inconvenient? If you're in a wheelchair and you can't go to every single restaurant. Yes, that's life. Right? Life isn't fair, right? You can't always get everything, but you have to accommodate. Because other people have rights to, and you can't force other people to just accommodate you like this guy with a hearing problem. Accommodate Yourself. You buy the hearing aid. Don't make every single bar and restaurant that you may want to go to by hearing aid just to accommodate you, who may or may never even come there and of course if you're the only. Only. person that wants it. Who knows how much this thing cost I mean they may never sell you enough coffee to recoup the cost, and especially, since the only reason that that guy went into the starbucks was to look for a lawsuit. There's no way he went in there for a cup of coffee. He went in there to stir up a lawsuit. Now I know a lot of people are going to be thinking. You Know Peter, but isn't it just like? Other civil rights. Disability isn't it like you know somebody who's black or somebody? WHO's homosexual or a woman? Isn't it all about equal rights, and isn't it? Isn't it the same and I would concede that it is. It is the same, but I think that. People have a constitutional right to discriminate for any reason so that would include. Race and sexual orientation and gender age, right and disabilities I think all these laws which make private discrimination illegal are wrong, and it's not because I'm in favor of racism or discrimination based on those type of characteristics that are irrelevant to the job. I'm not in favor of it. I'm just in favor of Freda right. There's a lot of things that people say that I am opposed to, but I don't oppose their right to say it. I believe in free speech and believing in free speech means that you allow people to say things that you don't agree with that. You Find Offensive Right? Anybody can defend free speech when. When the people who are speaking are saying what you agree with I. Mean that's no big deal to let. People say things that you agree with the test of whether or not you believe in free speech is whether or not you believe in the freedom of people say things that you disagree with things that offend you and the thing goes for conduct or association. If you believe that people are free than people are free to discriminate, you don't have a right not to be discriminated against, but you do have a right to discriminate, but is when the government comes in and passes all these laws making discrimination illegal. That we actually end up having a lot more of it like the case with the ADA, because they made it illegal to discriminate against the disabled by forcing employers to accommodate them now far fewer employers are willing to hire the disabled and we ended up destroying job opportunities for the disabled. The same thing happens with everybody that's protected right. A lot of African Americans are not getting hired, because employers are afraid of getting sued based on discrimination for race. This is happening across the board. Women now are not getting hired. I think because people don't WanNa get sued. And in fact, what's happening right now? With black lives matter I bet that this is going to have an even more chilling effect on the willingness of small businesses, especially if they're white owned businesses to hire African Americans, because the narrative now is that everybody's a racist right. Everybody believes that everybody in America is racist and all the problems that anybody has if they're black, are racism. So I bet today. The chances are that if you happen to have to fire an employee, who's black I? Bet The chances that you get sued for some racially based termination are much higher right now than they've ever been. Because everybody is now predisposed to assume. Oh, I got fired. It must be because I'm black because I've been told that everybody is a racist and I just got fired, and my boss must be a racist or I didn't get promoted. It must be because of racism or I'm not getting paid as much as this other guy. It must be because a racism so since the probability now of getting sued. By an African American is probably so much greater than the risks are so much greater that means the cost of employing african-americans has just gone way up, so fewer of them are going to be able to find jobs. It's not because people are racist is because they don't want to get sued. It's lawyers. They don't like not African Americans and they don't care what color the lawyer is. The problem is the color of the money that they're going to have to pay the lawyer. And that's green, and they can't afford it, so it's mitigating legal risks and minimising costs that resulted in discrimination, not racism, but again you know the main reason that I am opposed to these laws. Is Not because of the economic damage they do. I mean that's another reason that I am opposed. I am opposed these laws because they backfire and hurt the very people that they were supposed to help. But I'm opposed to them on the moral high ground. Of individual liberty and individual freedom right Americans. Don't have the right not to be discriminated against. You have a right to associate with who you want. You have. The right to employ. Who you want, you start a business. You take all the risks that your business. If you, you have the right to exclude people. If you want to based on whatever criteria all of this started with the civil, rights act of nineteen, sixty four, and that particular AC, did a lot of good, but it also did a lot of bad people forget that and a lot of people don't realize that the reason that the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty. Sixty four was passed. Is Because Republicans supported it? It was the Democrats that were against it because you had a lot of racist Democrats that wanted to keep the Jim crow laws on the books and you had a lot of Republicans who wanted to get rid of them, but not all the Republicans supported the Civil Rights Act. People like Barry. Goldwater were against it. Ronald Reagan? Rand Paul got into trouble when he first ran from Senate because they dug up some of his old writings were he was pointing out the problems he had with the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four. That act had good features and bad features. The best part about it was that it made it illegal for the governments to mandate discrimination right institutional discrimination was outlawed, and there was that was a great thing. It was long overdue. See what was happening is southern states were requiring racially based discrimination. They were forcing businesses to discriminate. The governments were the ones that were setting up White Drinking Fountains Black Drinking fountains. It was government that said blacks ride in the back of the box. It was governments telling restaurants owners. You have to have white bathrooms black bathrooms you have to separate. Black customers, from white customers. The restaurant owners most of them didn't want to do that. That's why the government had a pass laws. They had a force businesses to discriminate. Otherwise wouldn't have done it, and that's not right. The government should be able to force you to discriminate just like I said you. You have a right to discriminate, but you can't be told that you must discriminate if you don't want to. So those laws were struck down, and also they made it illegal for government to discriminate and they shouldn't be able to. Because government is not subjected to the free market forces that would otherwise punish people for discriminating because it's government, and of course everybody. Everybody is being taxed and so everybody has to be treated equally by government, but everybody doesn't have to be treated equally by a small business owner. That's small business owner can choose who he wants to do. Business with and who he doesn't, and who he wants to employ, and who he doesn't just like as a consumer, you can decide which businesses you want to go to, and which businesses you don't want to. As an employee, you can decide which businesses you want to work for. Businesses you don't the problem with the civil. Rights Act was that it also made it illegal for private citizens to discriminate private businesses to discriminate, and that not only did that open up a powder keg of lawsuits that backfired and caused people to discriminate that wouldn't and then you started to reward discrimination, because employers who discriminated had less lawsuits than those who didn't people who weren't discriminating got you know sued more often than people who avoided hiring the people who could sue them right so the government created a perverse financial incentive for people who otherwise would not discriminate to start discriminating. But it really just boils down to individual rights. If you're a free person, you are free to make whatever choices that you want. And you know it's interesting. Because when it comes to social relationships, everybody would agree with me right? Nobody believes that individuals should be forced to be equal opportunity with all of their interpersonal relationships. Take the example of a woman. Right women are out and they're you know. Women are generally pursued by men. Men men ask out women, and then the women decide a which invitations they want to accept right now. Nobody would believe that they have to be equal opportunity daters that they have to give all guys and equal opportunity to take them out on a date. Right that they can't discriminate among their suitors right. I mean who say that I mean what if they were going to pass a law that said look women. You can't discriminate. Based on you know on height, right? You gotta give guys a chance to date. You just can't date tall men, or what about fat guys? You just can't look for guys that are physically fit. You gotta give out of shape. Overweight guys a chance, or what about ugly guys? You can't discriminate based on physical characteristics. Don't just look for the handsome guy. You gotta give the ugly guys shot right, but then what about these other characteristics? What about age discrimination? If you're twenty five year, old woman and an eight year old guy? Guy Wants to go out with you. Can you turn him down I? Mean you have to give the old guy shot at going out with you? Can't you discriminate against people who are too old and you go on these dating sites? Look at how specific allow these women. Are you know with what their criteria is? They're discriminating against everybody I. Mean what if what if the woman is a Christian and she doesn't want to date Jews right? She just wants Maybe she's GonNa get married. She wants to have her kids raised. In a Christian home, sure she could discriminate based on. Religion I mean she could. She can discriminate I. Don't want to date and the unemployed guys right she certainly she could discriminate against guys with disabilities. Does she have to give people in wheelchairs, a chance to data or somebody WHO's blind or whatever disability? No, she could say look I. Don't want to date. Guys with disabilities I. Don't want to deal with that right I mean. That's another complication I don't watch. Say No guys with disabilities I mean. Does she have to? Give women a chance right? Could she? If some lesbian wanted, go out with her, does she have to do it? Could she discriminate based on sexual orientation based? On course she can write. She could do all this right. It's kind of. It'd be ridiculous for me to assume that she can't make these discriminations in her personal life well. If a woman has the right to be as picky as she wants. When it comes to selecting her dates, and she can discriminate based on any characteristics she wants, and nobody can sue her. Who is denied the opportunity to take her out on a date right then? Why does she lose those rights is she decides to start a business? It's the same concept. She doesn't lose her rice. If you open up a business, you retain your rights so if she wants to hire workers based on the same criteria that she's. Accepting dates, she can do it as she wants to. Now, will she probably not not if she wants to stay in business, if all she has doing his hiring the tall dark and handsome guys, because they're eye candy, you know. Maybe she's turning down a lot of very competent, older, less attractive, fat guys. Who maybe we do a better job and if she's not hiring, those guys heard. Competitor is hiring those and she's not going to stay in business. Her products won't be as good. Her prices are going to be higher, so she is going to hire those people anyway. Even if she'd prefer to have tall, dark and handsome guys, she's knows that they're not the best ones for the job. Maybe she's GonNa. Hire the best up. This same thing happens. You know if she wouldn't date an African American right. That doesn't mean she's not going to hire an African American if the African American is the best guy for the job, right, it's funny how the Left. Left. They think business owners. They know they're really greedy, but they also assume they're racists, but doesn't their greed trump their racism, and that's what happens, right? You're going to hire the best person for the job. Regardless of whether they have characteristics that you don't like because the most important characteristic is that they're gonNA. Help you make more money. And what does she you know wants to open? Open up a restaurant, right? What does she what does? She wants to discriminate against who her customers can be right? What does she wants to have the same criteria again for dating well, then she's GonNa. Limit her market right is she doesn't want any short guys. If you just want an old guys, she doesn't want any ugly guys is she doesn't want any people with disabilities covered A. A restaurant she is limiting her marketplace right. Most entrepreneurs want to cast a wide net possible if they can, even if they do harbor some prejudices, they don't care because they're more concerned about making money than their own prejudices, but a lot of people still think you know if it wasn't for the civil, Rights Act of one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty four. We would still have whites only. Restaurants no way. There's no way that would happen I. mean maybe it's possible in some real remote location, there might be enough racist and a community that you could support a business like that. But who cares I mean look. I'm Jewish and at one time in this country, there was a lot of overt antisemitism I mean there are a lot of places that Jews couldn't go. There were a lot of clubs that restricted people. You couldn't join a club in certain communities. You couldn't buy a house if were Jewish. I mean one of the reasons that you have all these Jewish banks right Solomon Brothers Leman brothers Goldman Sachs a lot of these firms. He's old guard. Firms wouldn't hire juice, so they had to go start their own firms. But you know eventually. A lot of those barriers broke down. But look. I've got no problem. If. There's an anti Semite out there. And he wants to. Put out a sign. In front of his restaurant. That says no Jews. I'm fine with that. I got no problem with that at his right to do that. And if somebody wants to eat in that restaurant, they can eat. There I don't care. And in fact, as far as I'm concerned if there's an anti Semite who hangs a sign out in front of his restaurant, that says no Jews allowed. He's done me a favor. Because if he didn't have that sign. I might actually eat in that restaurant. I would know that the owner was an anti Semite and I would be giving my business to somebody who doesn't like juice. What are want to do that? I like it if the anti-semites identified themselves, so I know where they are so I, can avoid eating in the restaurants, and if some people want to eat in those restaurants, if there's some other anti-semites that Wanna eat in that restaurant great then they're not. Not going to be eating in the restaurants I'm eating, and so I don't have to be around that. They all WANna. Congregate in one place. That's fine with me. Why do I care? There are plenty restaurants that will allow Jews and that's where I'm going to eat I. Don't have a right to eat it every restaurant. I want you know if somebody doesn't want me there. Why should I force him? And in fact you know? Why would I even want to eat in a restaurant? Owned by an Anti Semite and he knows I'm Jewish. What what if what if they spit in my food? What if they do I mean? Why would I wanNA take a chance I'm happy. That's why when these guys want to force somebody to bake you a cake. I would be scared to eat that cake. If I had a four somebody to bake it for me. Who knows what they might put in it right, so it doesn't matter to me. Look if somebody had a restaurant and it was like whites-only. Even though I'm white. I wouldn't eat at that restaurant either. Even though I'm allowed to eat there, why would I want to? If guy is such a racist that he only wants to serve whites than? Me! I'm going someplace else I. Don't like that, right? That's my choice. It's his choice to decide that he wants to limit his customers to white people, but it's my choice if I don't want to patronize a restaurant that's owned by Bigot, a racist mocking to eat there now. If there's some other races that like yeah, I'm going to eat at that restaurant. Let them do it. That's life you've got to be tolerant. That's the craziest thing about. About the left is they want to pretend? They're so tolerant, but they're completely intolerant, because they don't tolerate intolerance, you have to tolerate intolerance. If other people want to be discriminating or if they want to be racist, take can do it. Just live and let live. You just have to overcome those things and realize that the vast majority of people who are running businesses care more about money. Even if they are racist, they care about the bottom line. The. Customer is always right right I mean that's the beauty of capitalism is that the customer is in charge because everybody wants to customers money, so everybody has to cater to the customers need. Now one of the funny things, though is this whole. Stuff is going full circle now. Because now you have transgendered. Women or guys that were guys, but now they're women, and now they want to compete women's sports, and of course they're. They're kicking, but they're winning all the metals because the women can't compete with these guys, because even though they're saying they're women, their men, and so they still have a lot of strength advantages that men have over women so now they're kind of in a box. Because I. They have all these women's sports because women can't compete with men. That's why the have women's sports because women are GonNa make the men's basketball team. They're not gonNA make the men's track team. They're not going to be able to compete in men's tennis or men's golf. They just can't do so the only way they can have. Professional Sports is if they're segregated if you separate the men from the. The women and then you let the men compete against the men, and the women compete against women, but now if you allow the men to compete against the women, you destroy the whole concept of Women's sports, because now any guy could just claim his woman, and now he can compete with a women and have an unfair advantage, because physically men are just stronger and faster than women. I mean that's just. Biology Anatomy. W can do about it. That's life, but it's interesting now. They're starting to eat each other. Because now. Some women are are trying to turn on the LBJ. t community that is demanding. This type of a combination which defeats the whole purpose of what a lot of the women fought for in the first place. Now there are a lot of people though that kind of try to draw a distinction between private conduct like choose to date and. Your conduct once you decide to open up a business that somehow. People have a special right to work for somebody, but they don't have the same right to to date them right, and maybe it's because they say it's you know it's not as personal well. Look first of all. There are a lot of things. Where you're employing, people or people are employed. What if I'M A masseuse? And I don't want to massage men or I don't WanNA massage women. I know a lot of. Guys don't want to get massaged by other guys. They don't want to hire a male masseuse. They WANNA hire. A female masseuse narrows an employment and you're discriminating based on on gender. You know obviously to when I talk about dating. What about prostitution? Right? What about when people are selling their services? What if I am a male prostitute? And a guy wants to hire me, but what if I'm straight? What if I only want to accept female clients? Can some gay Guy Sue me because I'm not having sex with him to after all because I'm having sex for money. Therefore I'm in business. And how can I- discriminate against him? Just because he happens to be guy right, so you can see that sometimes businesses can involved personal interaction. The same way that dating can, but in theory right based on these laws if you are and of course, prostitution is illegal in most places, but there are some areas of the country where it's legal and so in theory. You could be sued if you refuse service. To somebody based on gender but I. Don't make a distinction. Between dating somebody and employing them I mean employing people are still personal relationships especially. If you're a small business and you know, it's a more intimate setting, you have a few people that work for you. Sometimes you're working long hours I mean sometimes. You have to travel for business I mean. There's a lot of things I mean. People should be able to decide who they want to work with and I. Don't you know whatever criteria they WANNA use? That's their decision. Decision that's their choice. It's it's their business, and you can't claim that you have a right. I know they're saying well, but you're denying somebody an opportunity. How can you deny them something that they never had? If you are starting a business, you are creating the opportunity right. The opportunity to work at a business didn't exist until you. Yourself created the business. So if you're going to create opportunities, you can decide for whom those opportunities are going to be available. Because you're the one that brought them into existence. They're not there in nature, and if you set up a business, you could decide. This is who my clients are going to be. Look, you know you've got all kinds of publications that cater to various genders and various ethnic groups Israeli wrong with that now because there's a market for that and they're trying to target their business to particular market. Everybody has a right to do that. You don't have the right to force somebody to comply with your will. People don't exist to serve you to benefit you. In the Declaration of independence, right, we have Americans have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It's the pursuit of happiness that you have a right to which is an amazing thing that America was really founded on the idea of happiness, and you're right to pursue happiness, but what the framers did not believe in was that you had a right to be happy. Happiness is up to you. You have to make your own happiness. The government can't deny you the pursuit of your happiness, but the government is not responsible for providing it, and nor can the power of government be used to force others. To help provide you with happiness. And that happiness would include employment opportunities or the opportunity to patronize a business, so you have to pursue your own happiness, and the irony of it all this is the unfortunate irony of it is by trying to turn. Privileges into rights, and by trying to empower so many. Victims to be able to sue people who are not providing them with the accommodations to which they believe they're entitled. All of this has backfired, which brings me back to the point of the PODCAST, which is the Americans with disabilities act thirty years of harm thirty years of damage were the people who have been hurt. The most are the disabled people who are very intended beneficiaries of the law. And like so many government laws it has backfired, and it has achieved the opposite of its intended purpose, and like all government laws, the real winners are the lawyers who are cleaning up who are making a fortune shaking down and harassing business owners all over the country of all races and creeds and sexual orientations. Lawyers are equal opportunity sewers. They will sue anybody if they think they can make buck. Anyway, that's it. Hopefully this podcast convince people who used to support the to now oppose it. Also want a little bit more in depth explanation of how these anti discrimination laws backfire and end up causing more discrimination. Than, the free market would would allow watch my youtube video. A capitalism punishes discrimination. Government rewards it if you're listening on Youtube. Make sure and subscribe, and then turn that notification on so that you never miss an episode, also be sure and hit the like button and leave a comment, too. I read the comments and I. Try to reply to as many as I can, but the important thing is that you tubes algorithm is far more likely to suggest my videos to other people when. When they see a lot of people liking it interacting in the comments section. Of course you can also listen to my podcast on shift radio DOT, com and all the popular podcast platforms like apple podcast. Google podcast spotify, so no matter where you listen, you can also help spread the word by rating and reviewing the Peter Shift show on apple podcasts. We now have close to five thousand reviews. They're mostly five stars, but some people that don't like me, you know. Throw in someone stars. Total combined rating right now is four point eight. So, maybe we can get it up to four point nine. If you like to show, make sure and like it and add a comment and put a five star review on there. By the way the podcast climbed up the charts recently. Thanks, obviously to Joe Rogan, I'm now up to number two in the categories of business, and in the subcategory of investments. The only guy who's beating me is Dave. Ramsey and Dave is going to be tough to be, but if you help me spread the word, and you raid in review, and you like and you comment, and you tell your friends then maybe I could beat Dave Anyway. Thanks for the help. Keep on listening. Bye for now.

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The Curse of American Traffic

Slate's The Gist

32:05 min | 3 months ago

The Curse of American Traffic

"In an unprecedented era of economic uncertainty amidst health crisis and national reckoning on race we're all asking what's the way out. But to answer that we need to know how we got here made to fail highlights the ways conservative policies and institutions have failed Americans across the country and this failure it wasn't an accident it was by design listen to made to fail wherever you get your podcasts, the expert journalism in Apple News plus is now easier than ever to. Enjoy, you can read and listen to leading newspapers and magazines anytime anywhere on your iphone with audio stories curated by top editors here the week's most thought provoking articles out loud from the La Times New York magazine, Time and more tune in on your run in the car at the park or wherever you go. Start Your free one-month trial of Apple News plus today inside the Apple News App new subscribers only terms apply the following program may contain explicit language. It's Thursday August Twenty, seven, twenty, twenty from slate. It's the gist and big surprise scenario Clinton Sydney in for Mike Pesca I covered the economy and cars for NPR business desk in planet money, and currently I'm hosting the podcast bringing back Bronco. Now, as we take this, we await the finale. Convention. But instead of comparing the Republican and Democratic convinced this year I thought we get into the way back machine and compared this convention to ones from the past. Now, here's the thing you realize after watching RNC after RNC, it's this Republicans give good convention as television events. That is there are some obvious set-pieces law and order and taxes of course, and are those who say that law and order is the code word for racism. There and here is the reply. Our goal is justice justice for every. American. If we are to have respect for law in America, we must have laws that deserve respect. Just as we cannot have progress without order, we cannot have ordered without progress and so as we come into order tonight, let us commit the progress. Congress will push me raise taxes and I'll say, no and they'll push also know and they'll push again enough say. To them. Read My Lips. Richard Nixon and George Herbert Walker Bush twenty years apart absolutely nailing it. There's the American flag Republicans seem to be preoccupied with the American flag. Now usually during convention, there's a pan of the audience, the lone black conventioneers, and of course, there's the vice presidential candidate slamming the head of the other ticket. Yes. As small town mayor is sort of like a community organizer except that you have actual responsibilities. But we can never let the fire go out or quit the fight. Because the battle is never over. Our freedom must be descended over and over again and then again. There's still a lot of brush to clear out at the ranch. Fences that need repair and horses to ride. But I want you to know that if the fires ever dim. Leave my phone number dressed behind just in case you need a foot soldier. Rhetorically speaking you cannot get much better than Sarah, Palin and Ronald Reagan. Now, this year, you can't get Ronald Reagan who played Notre Dame quarterback George Gipp, but we got the greatest football coach in the history of Notre Dame Lou Holtz and addition Larry Trump. Kimberley girl foil, and of course, Vice President Mike Pence too many heroes who died defending our freedom to see American strike each other down we will have law and order on the streets of this country for every. American of every race and creed and color. And with President Donald Trump in the White House for four more years. And with God's help. We will make America great again. Again. They want to enslave you to the week dependent liberal victim ideology to the point that you will not recognize this country or yourself. I wasn't born trump I'm from the south I was raised to Carolina girl. I went to public schools and worked my way through a state. University. Mississippi from my seventh grade. English class was right what I learned about our president is different than what you might have heard. They don't have pride nerd country there'd be. No longer ask what can I do for my country? Only, what the country should be doing for them someone should tell coach Lou, look up the NBA players and what they're doing today anyway. WHAT REPUBLICANS DO? Well, when they win is make us not just think of how great America has been in the past but what it can become make us proud of who we are. You know where we're going. George Bush called it the vision thing I've spoken of a thousand points, of light. Of all the community organizations that are spread like stars throughout the nation doing good. We will work hand in hand. Encouraging. Sometimes leading. Sometimes being led that moment that rhetorical moment one like that that's what we haven't seen yet, and the thing is only up to the candidates to explain. Now imagine it like a game of Bingo. Donald Trump after all this time can donald trump finally become presidential and do the thing that presidential candidates from Richard Nixon's Mitt Romney have done. At the center of my Bingo Card is the united. US chip normally Republican nominees at least try to land on that mark. Now, what's the chance of that happening tonight? On the show today I, spill about Los, Angeles traffic and race. But I, I talked to the Great Scotty reach the editor of a girl's guide to cars. Plus let you read hundreds of popular magazines leading newspapers all in one place, and now enjoying top stories is even easier introducing audio stories. Now, you can listen to the titles you love anywhere anytime on your iphone. New Stories are added weekly from publication like the Los Angeles Times Vanity. Fair people time and more each hand picked by expert editors from a wide range of. Topics with audio stories you can tune in and listen on your run in the car at the park or wherever you go explore audio stories plus hundreds of magazines leading newspapers to read all for a month at no cost. Start Your free trial of Apple News plus today inside the Apple News App because great journalism deserves to be seen and heard you subscribers only terms apply. With millions of Americans working from home people are rethinking their commutes. Social distancing also means that how we shop for things like cars is changing buying a car has always been one of the most miserable things that we could do but according to our guests Scotty Reese covid nineteen is forcing the auto industry the change she's the editor of the website a girl's guide to cars I've known her for most of my career. Welcome to the SCOTUS. Thank you scenario. It's really nice to be here. I of you know am generation car person I've spent my entire life somewhere adjacent to the auto industry and I always joke that because my mom was a car person that I could track. My life and the economy based on what my mom was doing. The car industry is usually really really cyclical. So if The economy seems to be doing fairly bad. Our jobs in the car industry doing right now, what is what is the industry like? Well, the industry is sort of like the rest of our country taking it moment by moment really high spots and has low points and the factories are getting back online. But supply chain is stressed. People are going back to work and sales are rising some places but other places sales are flat or down. It really has been a time of auto companies and the sales chain proving their metal if they were prepared for this and they had the backup plans emergency plans in place. They've done really well, if they were working day to day and not really thinking about the future, those are the companies that are suffering the most. Now you said highs and lows. Let's start with lowes whatever lows that you're seeing here we sales or is there something more existential going on who's who's got a low getting cars to places has been challenge delivery vehicles has been a challenge. There is a low inventory, probably the lowest inventory of cars on dealer's lots maybe ever and dealers are running out of cars, certain cars like the Kea telluride that you just can't get an. If you can get it. You have to pay a premium so much so that you might even look at instead of buying the high end Kia you might look at buying a starter mercedes-benz for the same amount of money. It's a crazy comparison that consumers never faced before we're also seeing some dealers that are not doing very well, not only do they not have the inventory, but in some markets, the sales are just not rebounding the used car market and the subprime market. There are a lot of people who are going to default on their car loans. There are A. Lot of people who need a car and can't afford it because they haven't had a paycheck in four or five months the parts of the auto industry that depended on those people they're having a tough time right now. Now, when you say that there's you know low inventory on dealer lots you know the economists to me says that ain't great for consumers because a lot of what someone might Bang Khan is the idea that Hey Chrysler or General Motors is going to build too many. Chevy. Bolts and they're gonNA be a premium for those cars I'm seeing projections for decreased demand. By a lot but that's still a lot more than what the industry is able to supply as you said. So help me understand what that means for consumers who are for the eleven or twelve million or so people who are actually going to be looking for cars and twenty twenty. So the problem with the reduced inventory on loans right now is really about manufacturing and supply chain. So the lot of the manufacturing assembly plants are just getting back up to speed. We're also having issues with anything that's built outside of North America making its way back into North America because of quarantine rules because of stoppage on shipping and things like that. So just as seeing that supply chain breakdown. With, toilet paper and flour in east were also starting to see the ramifications of that with automotive and so you know it's great. If the suddenly plants are up and running in Georgia and Alabama, they can't get the key pieces they need say engine that was built in Mexico or transmission that was built in Germany, their stalled their idol. So that means that there are not cars being delivered the new cars that are on the lots they're tending to sell cars that normally might have a longer time on the dealers lot. Maybe they would stay for sixty days or forty five days and they're selling under thirty, and then we're also seeing cars as I said before signed for premium. which is not typical typically all year long you're going to sell car for lower than Ms Rpm and now we're seeing certain cars going for over Ms. RPM. Some and many of them being sold at the asking price are admitted. There's nothing that drives me more nuts than going to a car dealership. Now, you're seem to be saying that a lot of the things that I hate about car shopping are changing finally in the age of Covid what are those things like what's changing? How is this better? The big irony is that the? Dealer process hasn't changed much in the last fifty years, and if you ask someone six months ago, what would it take to get dealers to change the answer probably would have been something like a global pandemic. Well now we have global pandemic and dealers are changing. So as we talked a little bit before about the high points in the low points in the market and who's doing well and who's still suffering and those dealers that invested in digital process and they probably didn't do it for the reason they're using it now but they did it because the marketing experts said, you need to protect your best customers you need to put video on youtube you need to do these things right you need to. Talk with your team over zoom things like that, while they begrudgingly learn to use some of these tools and then when the pandemic hit and the only way they could communicate with their customers was face timers zoom or text or email, or in a chat group or something like that. They were forced to do it. Many dealers realized that they were to have. To, do things in an electronic way that they were not going to be able to talk with people face to face well, customers loved that and customers because there's so much more of the power in the customers hands when you can get an email from three or four different dealers do some comparing of their offer and features that are on that car when? You have the Vin number and you can look up the number and see what all the details are on that car, and then compare the price that the dealer is offering you. You have the power to make an intelligent decision and previously those dealers with all those car sitting on their lots didn't want you to do that because if they can put pressure. On. You could get you to buy a car that they've already invested in rather than the car that you really want to buy. So a lot of things are changing right now and what they're finding is that customers loved buying a car this way they love the process being about the car and not being about spending time in the dealership and the dealers. Are Learning. This actually makes their job easier because they don't have to spend all that time selling the car. They can actually spend their time in a much more optimized way knowing what the customer wants getting that car on their lot getting all the paperwork done so that they're spending a lot less time with the customer. It's basically assigned and drive type of. Process, and it just is easier all around for everyone. What about used car? What is there any Any changes in the used car world? What's the top allying thing that for those of us who don't have cash on fire right now on fire because of the shortage of new cars used cars are flying off of lots and normally used cars stay on. Dealers Lot sixty, ninety days there settling in something like thirty eight days right now and at a premium the average price of a used car six months ago is fourteen thousand dollars. Now, it's over sixteen thousand dollars. The good news is if you're if you can find the new car you want and you're trading in your old car, US should be getting top. Dollar if you're buying a used car, you're probably GONNA pay more than you would have six months ago because there are a lot of people who need Carson. The pandemic has really encouraged a lot of people to move out of the cities into the suburbs and a lot of those people didn't have cars. So there's a big demand both new and used right now. I've been going to auto shows I've seen the industry and I haven't seen much change. It feels like since the nineties when it comes to diversity or women in the industry now you know it's the era of black lives matter tons of black folks in the auto industry, but they don't necessarily rise to the top right and the same thing with women in the industry where do you? See. The place of diversity in the auto industry right now. So it's better than it's ever been and right now there are more women in top leadership roles at car companies than ever and I think it's a bit of a surprise. Actually there's more women in the C. Suite I think GM than there are men joyful LODICO, the president of Lincoln and Chief Marketing Officer of Ford. Holds two very senior roles not company. There are women who lead the chief marketing officer role at six or eight car companies. It's a pretty big deal and their continual more and more women are taking those roles all the time. In fact, Hyundai just added a new chief marketing officer and a chief communications officer who are both female. So to additions to the C. Suite in the last year have been women. The secret to this and that will wear things will change really that pivot point is when we have chief executives with their male or female putting development plans and place within the organization to allow women to achieve the highest role, the C. Suite role. If you don't have a half in place for people to get to that to that role, it will never happen. So it's really easy to have them in the middle management, but it's harder to have the higher management, but we are seeing that start to happen to. Companies that are really good at that, and you can literally start on the line with nothing but a high school education and get into senior level management as a woman as a person of color as any sort of minority group, General. Motors and Toyota Toyota's long been the most diverse automaker in the United States. General Motors has over the last about thirty years made diversity an effort and it's something that is addressed in HR helping people to gain the skills that they need to have the career trajectory that they want. That seems like a good segue to think about the future of the auto industry, which is mobility. The car industry is like two trillion dollars. But the mobility industry is eight trillion, which is mass transit scooters, electric bikes, all the ways that we can get around autonomous vehicles, helicopters flying from Santa Monica to downtown a Los Angeles that that is part of Mobility, which is the company that you think is the furthest along towards. Becoming a true mobility company I would say Hyundai would be at the top of my list. A little bit of a surprise Hyundai is very technology focused, and right now you might see Hyundai is having a lot of great in Car Technology that connects your phone connects to Alexa and things that they're working on some great autonomous technology. They even having member Smart Park we can just press the button on the key FOB and move the car out of a parking spot, and then they're also focused on alternative fuel types especially in Europe, and Asia. So they're allowed to places where in five years, you're not going to be able to drive a gas car into the city limits and Hyundai is has been working on this for a number of years recognizing the minute that the all this legislation passed in Europe, the started working on alternative fuel systems, Ford Six or eight years ago, declared themselves as a mobility company. They made a lot of investments in Silicon Valley and they have done a lot of testing with things, scooters, and electric bikes and what they call last mile mobility solutions, and then General Motors says, well, they've all been experimenting with Shared Band Services Autonomous Driving, services things like that They're also thinking about how they deliver not just people but also packages also. How you? Decrease congestion in cities with like big trucks that are parked on the street to deliver an envelope. And how we changed that. So that, we maybe have an electric bike in that big truck in it's somewhere not congesting traffic but. That the delivery person can then officials efficiently deliver small packages or medium sized packages, things like that but. Every car company is thinking about this. The pandemic is going to disrupt that I think to a great degree because it will be a while before people are confident that they can get back on a train that they can ride the commuter rails, the subways and things like that. If they can work at home and they have their car for where they when they need to go into the city. If they have par for picking up those groceries at curbside pickup area, they're less likely to think about taking an uber taking a train. I've covered the auto industry for Wyle you keep. Hearing about the on coming autonomous vehicle does this pandemic which is global and the slowed salesman cut back. Do you think that will affect win? We'll see the rollout of driverless cars, cars that drive themselves, I don't think so I think we're gonNA, see autonomous cars and trucks especially trucks as soon if not sooner because of the pandemic. So think about the supply chain delivery and the issues that we've had and the things that we've seen disappearing from our store shelves if we have autonomous delivery trucks and think about the eighteen wheelers that are. Driven by a driver if those are autonomous, we can really smooth out a lot of the problems in our supply chain for consumer products, as well as industrial and business to business products. Take New York City, for example, what something like fifteen million people that live in the metro and so many of those people would take the train into the city. So now they're going to be sitting in a traffic jam because they're going to drive in maybe a drive that would normally take an hour might take too. Well, if the car does all the work that's two hours, they can make calls, they can do a video chat it can really do get their work done get in for their meeting, get out for their meeting, get out of the city and not spend all day actually driving the card is the. Driving for them. So I think the pandemic actually makes the case for autonomous vehicles even stronger Scotty reese is the editor of a girl's guide to cars. One of my websites you can check it out. There's all kinds of articles about any number of things from how to buy a car to get ahead in the car industry to stories about the history of the car world essentially everything you need to know. Thank you for joining us on the gist. Thank you. And now the SPIEL now I've been friends with Mike Pesca a long time and I'm GonNa tell you. Only someone like him gets a show where almost half of it is where he gets to rant about anything he wants I'm not usually afforded that luxury, but I will try our darnedest now it is hard to separate race from say the car industry or cars and traffic or just about anything. Now I spent a lot of my life in and around the car industry, my grandfather and my great uncle Bob both at General Motors. My mother was a manager at Ford Motor Company and my cousin Eric Works on the assembly line at. Chrysler, I've covered the auto industry and economists that NPR for many years now, host the podcast bring back. Bronco available where you listen to podcast. I've also been stopped dozens of times during my career by police officers. One of the perks of being in the car world is driving new cars. One of the dangers of being a black car reporter is testing fancy cars that you don't own. Now here's something you'd think of if you're black man driving a say a land rover that doesn't belong to you through Belair race cars and traffic. Yes traffic as much as this is Mike Pesca show it's also a very New York show as I've heard and I've learned when New Yorkers here Angelenos sock about traffic. This is actually what they hear. Get back on. Taken to the ten. Eighty four or five doors and let it onto. Mulholland we're. It's going to be John. And I talked to my New York friends or east coast friends. Their view of Los Angeles is just one big traffic jam. You know the second largest city in America where industry in Hollywood is all they think of traffic jam now does anyone ever wonder why there is actually so much traffic in Los Angeles I mean really wonder for most poorest box the movie who framed Roger Rabbit is all they know about L. A. Traffic if they know anything at all. The city council. Construction of epic proportions. Calling. Freeway. Freeway. But the hell's it freely. Nine Shimmering Cement running from here to Pasadena. Smoke safe. Traffic Jams will be a thing of the past. The idea goes that during the thirties big car companies conspired to get rid of the trolleys in order to make way for cars for the beloved freeway. Back in the day, the car companies were huge all powerful and to be honest pretty damn evil. I. Mean The least you can say about Henry Ford is that he was the son of a bitch that is the very least. You can say Christopher Lloyd who heard there along with dad but he coleman by the way are the two most underrated actors of the eighties and we'll hear more about Dabney Coleman tomorrow. Now when you land at lax and it takes you an hour to get to Santa Monica, it's easy to believe that the car companies formed and evil cabal to make. Los Angeles free from public transportation. Sadly. It is not the car companies that did it. Think about it Los Angeles went through a population explosion from eleven thousand people in Eighteen, eighty, two, nearly three, million in nineteen, eighty in that period. Oil was found three times. Movies came the defense industry came, and so did a lot of money and you know what else came to Los, Angeles at various points in that one hundred year history Asians and blacks the Latinos were already here. As Elliot grew the trolley system created amazing thoroughfares like Wilshire Boulevard that for many years, accommodated trolleys, horses, and cars traveling all down the same road angelenos though had a choice between writing and trolleys with their fellow man or being alone in the quiet racial Jimmy that is your own car. Can. You guess which one Los Angeles residents chose and to be clear angelenos have. Had a choice in the twenty s there was a ballot measure in Los. Angeles the choice for voters whether to construct a vast network of elevated trains. You know they call them L. or to build union station in downtown that would consolidate to existing train lines back in the twenties and thirties. It was a long time before dog whistles. So the racism was just right out there. In the open the Los Angeles Times editorial page was firmly against an elevated train system. They literally said that L.. Trains would block out the sun, but we could use some say these days. But if you look at the rhetoric, it's all about race. One of the new station proposals to the La Times was that union station would forever do away with China Town and its environs. Now before the chicagoans or New Yorkers jump on their high horses about how forward thinking they're cities are give me a break sadly, Los Angeles didn't have a Tammany Hall or Chicago Political Machine to ram through huge government expenditures over a largely illiterate populace. So if you're asking yourself why Los Angeles traffic is so bad even during a pandemic, well, you needn't blame Roger Jessica Rabbit in need to blame something as American as Apple, pie cars and cartoons. The economists, William Spriggs wrote an open letter to his fellow economists. SPRIGS works at Howard University. Now, he essentially says, we turn ourselves inside out to avoid seeing race as a factor especially in economics. He writes too far too many African American economists. It looks like economists are desperate for great white hope some variable that can be used to once and for all justify racial disparities. Now, instead of avoiding race, I say look for it. It's everywhere. It affects us all now. Yes. As a black man who drives too fast too often I'm way more likely to be stopped than the average white guy. But if you're stuck in traffic on the Long Island expressway or the beltway in DC or the dreaded four or five, and you're wondering why that is well blame Robert Moses or Richard Daily or any number of these builders I would add what I call the scenario Clinton corollary to the work of economists like William SPRAGUE's William Rogers origin L. Jones when a system in front of you makes absolutely no sense and you can't understand it say how L. A. With his expensive real estate and natural resources only is now building world-class transit system. When an economic policy makes no sense and it can't be explained in any other reasonable way. The answer my friends is not blowing in the wind. Is just plain old everyday racism. And that's it. For today's show the gist was produced by Daniel schrader and Margaret Kelly this has been the black his version of the just that you've heard I don't know ever and guess what guys tomorrow it gets even Gayer I'm scenario Clinton follow me on twitter at scenario. I'm Peru Peru do Peru and thank you for listening.

Los Angeles Apple La Times America General Motors Hyundai President Donald Trump Mike Pesca George Herbert Walker Bush New York City Richard Nixon Los
Lt. Colonel Oliver North 1-26-20

CATS Roundtable

10:30 min | 11 months ago

Lt. Colonel Oliver North 1-26-20

"Good Morning America. This is the cats roundtable TRONC. Cats McKee's here Sunday morning. What's going on in the world? What's going on in Washington again? Well we got one of the most knowledgeable guys. I know that knows Washington very well and also has a new book. We have lieutenant colonel. Oliver North Breath Oliver North. There's been political commentator and his been in Washington forever but most of all he is a loyal American citizen morning Colonel North. It's good to be with you. Thank you by the way we're in New York are you because I grew who up in upstate New York well we have a lot of businesses upstate New York but I am in New York City in Manhattan and offices our offices near Smith. He's so famous snake. How style by? You're absolutely so look at. I used to come down there when my dad was a it was my dad's an American hero is World War Two and When he retired from the army we moved to Columbia County and one of my favorite memories of life was getting on the New York Central Train and writing down to New York City? We take the what we now call the Metro. I guess but it was the subway. I was doing it over to a place called ebbets field where his favorite favorite baseball team. Now's Brooklyn Pittsfield. Well I'll tell you what hunt dodgers. Yes exactly exactly. In my life ended. They moved the team. New York Senator Los Angeles. Well a colonel. You're in the marine caught you in the National Security Council. You've done John A lot. You worked under President Reagan and he was a great president and I see some similarities between Reagan and the president. We have now a little less the Promessi these days but well you know what there's courage you know his his speech right after we kill Sulejmani Sola Noni right. He was a truly evil. Human being was was murderer of thousands of people to include over six hundred American military military personnel killed with these these very special i-i Dis that he was building and the world is a better place. Now that we're having the speech that Donald Trump gave in the aftermath of that was very reaganesque. He laid out what. Here's what I'm going to do. They're not GONNA be able to get. What nuclear weapons? We're going to deal with their ballistic missiles and they've got to stop the terrorism. You've kill another American. We're going to kill a bunch of you very calm very reaganesque and very straightforward people. Say Well we don't know what he wants. Most of my colleagues are our colleagues in the media seem to be saying that kind of thing very clear what he wants and very clear what the consequences of killing Americans who are going to be Ronald. Reagan did the same thing in the aftermath of a bombing attack in Berlin disco. Okay perpetrated by Moammar Gadhafi. I know 'cause I was there when he planned it. And and what I'm saying is that Donald Trump's never going to get credit for the things he does right. I said the other day on Hannity I said you know. Donald trump could walk across on the surface of the water across the Potomac River and Save David drowning man and walked back with them and the Washington compost would say donald trump can't swim. That's where we're headed. That's where we are. I I give you a prediction. I don't I don't have to give the prophecy but my prediction is at the end of this sad saga. That's being worked out in the. US Senate right now. Donald Trump simple be exonerated. That's number one number. Two Donald Trump will be reelected number three donald trump is going to bring about a transition in the US US House of Representatives because they're going to go republican and forth. The Iranians are going to change the shape of what their government is in his second term. Her that's my prediction. You can hold me. Hold my feet to the fire on that one buddy well. We're concerned about is the Chinese and the Iranians yes. We're listening for certain Democrats that were going and say wait for us. To take control life will be easier for you and maybe that's not. That's the reason. Isn't that the Iranians and the Chinese endured deal earlier Donald Trump right and and by the way I agree completely with what you just said that the the idea that they now have to reckon with this guy and I you know they can read the polls just as well as you or I. They realize they underestimated him. They did not understand what was really happening with is impeachment thing and at the end of the day. He's going to be exonerated. He is going to get a second term and suddenly I believe they're paying attention which is a good thing. I agree one hundred percent and it's just You know I I liked when Bill Clinton was was president. I like the guy the same. The bushes like the guy but this Democratic Party is crazy. It's gone gone off the rails and unfortunately Some of those who are leading it in in a direction I think of Disasters Direction is is the the the youngsters that they call the squad or whatever. They're calling it this week but the party is turned so far to the left. There were look at when Ronald Reagan was in the White House us. He did not get along with tip. O'Neill a lot of people pretend he did today but he did have. Some people could count on and the Democrat Party. who had common sense there? There were people who you could count on to do the right thing and so the reason. The Wall came down right after he left office. And George Herbert Walker Bush became became. President is the the things that Ronald Reagan convinced Europeans. They had to do and convince the rest of the United States. Hey I'm a Reagan Democrat and and it's a good thing to be. He reached out and broke the back of of a lot of bad stuff that was happening on our country and in the United States prospered Donald. Trump's doing the same thing Donald Trump's you know the amazing thing of it is the bombast certainly. I've known this man for ten years. He's been a generous donor to my foundation condition. He's when he stands up and says this is what I'm GonNa do pay attention because he's going to do it. Yeah that's a good thing for America. One hundred percent Tell us about you. Have a new book tells about it. Yeah well the book. Actually New York is in the book. Because it's a book. Look about a Virginian who is the very one of the very first commissioned officers in the Continental Army George Washington gets made by Congress. Congress makes him the commander in Chief of the continental army which he was the only member at the time and so he goes to Boston. Shortly after the battle of bunker and actually it was bunkers and breed's hill takes command and one of the very first people he communicates with is back here in Virginia felt with intimate Daniel. Morgan he and Morgan had gotten to know each other during the French and Indian war and he. He wants Daniel to come to Boston with a hundred Virginia rifles. Right okay. Any and he's out. Yeah and and by the way the guys to carry them it takes them twenty one days to walk from right where I am in Virginia all the way to Boston and shortly after he gets there they start picking off British generals senior officers colonels and they and they start backing down toward Boston and then they get more rifleman up there they get more rifle companies to come in Washington says I want you to go invade Canada because we take our continental army on the offensive. It's a stalemate here in Boston. And so in the middle of Winter Morgan leads. A force of about a thousand fifty starts out all the way to Quebec through the Maine Wilderness in the middle of winter. It's remarkable saga of endurance and courage and persistence and tenacity and leadership up and face and they finally get there. And I don't want to tell you the end of the story is the the end is not pretty. It's not pretty because because actually only about half the guys actually make it out. And it's a against Quebec and the enlistment of the American military all expire on the first of January and so the attack is launched on the night of the thirtieth thirty first and read on and by the the way the sequel is going to tell you more about New York Chris. The Battle of Saratoga is seminal to get in the French into the into the revolution on our side and then of course the final battle. He fights his down and cow. How pens in South Carolina all places where I've lived all places where I know all that will fields that I've walked over as as a youngster because my dad was insisted my brothers? Listen I know the history of our country and God bless him Each one of US served in a different branch enforces and also all the served served in combat so the book is written from a lot of experience and according to the reviewers. I've gotten it's a great book so I'm grateful. Well I look forward to have a hearing version audio version. Yes through an audio version fact. It just came out hold on. I think it's up on Amazon. John it is by the book or the Audio version on Amazon. The book is called the rifleman. And it's by Oliver North. And before we sign off. I want to congratulate you and thank you for all the things the good things you've done for our country and and continue to do for our country and You know you're GONNA go down as a great man well. I'm grateful because I got eighteen grandkids and I appreciate you saying saying that and I look forward to seeing you because you and I worked on a project together. Long ago that we can't talk about its right. We could talk about it. But now I look forward to seeing you when you're in New York and God bless and this is the catch roundtable. We'll be right back.

Donald Trump President Reagan New York City US Washington New York president Oliver North New York continental army Boston John Congress Colonel North American military McKee Quebec ebbets field Moammar Gadhafi
1980, Carter vs. Reagan: Lets Make America Great Again

American Elections: Wicked Game

44:38 min | 3 months ago

1980, Carter vs. Reagan: Lets Make America Great Again

"It summer nineteen thirty four at a radio station. In des Moines Iowa the young broadcaster suits in a small booth in front of a single microphone next to him a fellow named curly sits in front of a telegraph machine. Curly's typing a message onto a piece of paper. Rips out the page and hands it to the broadcaster reads it nearly word for word. Bill Jersey steps up to the plate for the comes. Broadcasters in the middle of calling a baseball game between the cubs and the cardinals, the come shortstop Billy Joel is the first batter up dizzy. Dean readies himself for the first pitch is season and been one for the record books folks. Though Wrigley Field is some three hundred miles away. The broadcaster helps give the radio listeners at home the illusion of a play by play experience he has plenty of help in a small booth at Wrigley Field in Chicago. Telegraph operators watched the game live and tap out the action coded messages that are then sent to operators of various regional radio stations like this one but this particular broadcaster has a knack for the job. He's only been Wrigley field once, but he still has an uncanny ability to convince his listeners. He's right there in the action watching every pitch taking in the sights and sounds of the ballpark just like they would be if they were there. As curly decoding types out the next message, the broadcaster tees up the action to come Dizzy Dean winds up, and let's go the first pitch. Curly slips him another piece of paper when the broadcast receives the message, his face goes white there's no outcome typed on the message simply reads the wire has gone dead. The broadcaster looks to curly for some further explanation but only receives a shrug communication between Wrigley. Field, and the booth and moines is down but the broadcaster has already told his listeners. There's a pitch heading to the plate at this second. So on his feet jirgas, fouls went off behind third base. Currently gives him a curious look this time the broadcaster shrugs he knows his station isn't the only one covering the game. If he doesn't keep talking his audience will tune in elsewhere. He's always said, radio is a theater of the mind an opportunity to use his imagination and create stories share with his listeners. This is his chance to prove it Andrew Bogusch, thousand other one off Dean Goes Rosberg. He's pitched a scoreless game so far and doesn't want to rush anything. He steps back onto the mound shakes off a sign from. His catcher shakes off another dean goes into a long wind up finalists. Go with another pitch journalists makes contact. It has a chance just fallon right field for nearly six minutes des Moines broadcaster improvises the events of the game without any real information. Finally, the wire comes back on curly slips another piece of paper the message res, Jirgas popped out on the first ball pitched curly looks worried the prog Yasser just miles. He's told a good story and he's kept his audience engaged as far as he's concerned he's done his job. Curly didn't know at then and neither did the many fans listening at home. But in the summer of nineteen, thirty, four that broadcast announcer took a small step towards becoming a national celebrity after his days calling ballgames in Des Moines. The broadcaster would go on to become a famous actor. You would rise to prominence inside his union and his time serving in a leadership role. In the screen actors guild with the stage for his entrance into the world of politics. After being elected the governor of California Ronald Dutch Reagan would set his sights on the White House. But to win the presidency just as he had done in his days as a baseball announcer, Reagan, would have to rely on his folksy charm and his natural ability to tell a good story. The people who drive industries entertainment and culture shape our world every day in bold and dramatic ways. But did you ever wonder how they got there? Behind the talent features in depth conversations with people who identify and develop talent, the people who find the people that shape our world guests include big league sports, Scouts Rockstar talent agents, and CIA officers, uncovering the skills and challenges that unite them. All is the job of host David. Mead. He's an expert speaker and educator, and he brings his own curiosity and insights to each interview to expand our understanding of what it means to be a recruiter. Today's world of work brought to you by indeed dot com behind the talent is a must listen for anyone interested in the secrets behind identifying talent and unlocking potential in individuals and organizations subscribe to behind the talent now wherever you get your podcasts. Graham and this American elections wicked game. Ronald Reagan love telling stories. Later in his life he gleefully recount his moments in the booth during that cubs cardinals game to biographers and members of the press occasionally changing in detail or to and suggesting had been a turning point in his career Dutch a childhood nickname stemming from his Dutch boy haircut and never been one to settle for something just because he was good at it, he enjoyed his work but calling games from hundreds of miles away wasn't enough. You wanted to tell stories on a larger scale and reach a bigger audience. This desire led him from a radio booth in. Iowa. To the film sets of Hollywood. Reagan worked in movies consistently in the late thirties while he was never considered one of the great actors of the era, he did become a household name he dated and eventually married. Jane Wyman, his Co. Star, in the nineteen thirty, eight film brother Rat, his notoriety grew as Reagan and Wyman became one of Hollywood's favorite celebrity couples in nineteen forty Reagan's notoriety and his love of sports and movies helped him secure what would prove to be his most famous film role Notre Dame football player George GIPP. Playing the gipper cemented Reagan's image and American pop culture, and eventually put him in a position to take on a leadership role in the screen actors guild during the sometimes violent strikes of the conference of Studio Unions and nineteen forty, six Ronald. Reagan. Proved to be such an effective communicator with both SAG leadership and rank and file members that he quickly rose from third VP to president of the screen actors guild. This was in many ways. Reagan's first foray into politics, navigating the egos and disparate agendas of union membership taught Reagan, a lot about compromise and the pressures of leadership perhaps more importantly, his time has SAG president put him directly at odds with the Labor movement Reagan had been subjected to what he called near constant bullying sometimes, even physical violence during labor dispute this may be more than anything started to shift his political views when he came to Los Angeles in the thirties, he'd been a staunch Democrat who idolize President Franklin Delano. Roosevelt when he left his position Sag, he removed to the right politically by the early sixties. He officially joined the Republican Party and became a leading voice of a movement that for decades had conservatives in both parties struggling to make their message more appealing. But by the nineteen seventies, conservatism was on the rise in the minds of many Americans. President Johnson's Great Society said of domestic policies aimed at eliminating poverty and racial inequality had been an abject failure. Many Americans were ready for change. Many Republicans hoped Reagan would lead the charge. With his second wife Nancy at his side Reagan gave voice to these sentiments and told the story of an America that was going in the wrong direction with wide support out West Reagan made his move into American politics and served two terms as governor of California from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen, seventy, five for many conservatives. Governor Reagan made the perfect presidential candidate is unique talents on the political stage would earn him the nickname the great communicator. For many moderate Republicans, Reagan's conservatism was too much for the American people to take the midst of a struggle between moderate and conservative Republicans Reagan. Would rise to power. In, might be said that Reagan's campaign for President in nineteen eighty began four years earlier at the nineteen seventy six Republican national convention though he failed to secure the nomination. Then Reagan used his oratorical skills to lay the groundwork for his political future and to take the Republican Party in a bold new direction. The episode forty nine nineteen eighty Carter versus Reagan. Let's make America great again. It's Thursday August nineteenth nineteen seventy six inside Kansas City Missouri's Kemper Arena Ronald. Reagan takes center stage at the Republican National Convention. He's just lost the nomination to Gerald four hotly contested convention. But now with a battle over Ford has asked Reagan to say if you conciliatory words in a show of Party unity as Reagan steps to the podium many GOP leaders in the crown wonder if Reagan will extend an olive branch or fan the flames of division, there are cynics. Who say that a party platform is something that no one bothered to read and it doesn't very often amount to much. Whether it is different. This time that it has ever been before I believe the Republican Party has a platform that is a banner of bold unmistakable color with no pay. Oh, Pastel shade. Many in the crowd leap to their feet, Reagan is not take shots Gerald Ford. Stand from the very beginning he praises the strength vision of the Republican Party. We have just heard a call to arms based on that platform. And a call to us. To really be successful in communicating and revealed the American people the difference between this platform and the platform of the opposing party, which is another. Revamp and a reissue and running late late show of the thing that we've been hearing from them for the last forty years. Reagan owns his moment in the spotlight without effort. He shifts topics, nasty convention crowd to imagine Americans. One Hundred Years in the future and Benny ask those in the Convention Hall that Night What Message They might send to those future Americans you're going to write for people one hundred years from now. Who Know all about us we nothing about them. We don't to what kind of a world they'll be living in. There is no teleprompter notes in his hand. Reagan prepared these remarks for an upcoming engagement in California. But as he uses them tonight appears he's speaking entirely off the cuff and suddenly. I thought to myself if I write of the problems be the domestic problems. which the president's spoke here tonight. The challenges, confronting us the erosion of freedom that has taken place under Democrat rule in this country. The invasion of private rights, the controls and restrictions on the vitality of the great free economy that we enjoy. These are challenges that we must meet. Reagan uses his future American Story to shed light on what he sees as the threats facing the United States. Today, he continues to push the idea that American freedom is under attack from both a failing Democratic Party at home and from the Soviet Union abroad he continues to whip up the crowd and calls on them to beat the defenders of America's freedom whether they have the freedoms that we have known up until now. Will depend on what we do here. Will they look back with appreciation and say, thank God for those people in Nineteen, seventy six who headed off the loss of freedom who kept us now one hundred years later free who kept our world from nuclear destruction. After Reagan speech one listener in the arena lamented, we've nominated the wrong man. Decades later, many historians will look at this speech as the moment Ronald Reagan and the Conservatives won the battle of ideas over the moderate wing of their party. At the time though many Reagan's lost afford as a victory for the moderates and the end of Ronald Reagan's political career. But Ronald Reagan was no stranger to losing his life. In Hollywood, often consisted of being beaten out for parts by other actors or simply being rejected by producers before having a chance to read for a role it was widely believed that Reagan had lost out to Humphrey Bogart for the lead in Casa Blanca despite the fact that Reagan was never even considered for the part it was a business that at times declared you a loser even when you weren't actually playing the game. Reagan's experience on Hollywood taught him to take losing in stride and focus on trying to get the next job. But many thought there wasn't one in politics for Reagan despite his rousing speech at the convention many in the country. Especially Democrats thought that this marked the end of the road for the former California Governor Reagan was not a young man. He would be sixty nine years old by the time of the nineteen eighty election. This would make him over a year older than the oldest president ever elected at the time William Henry Harrison who had served for thirty days in the White House before passing away too many retirement seem like the only logical option for Ronald Reagan. And for his own part, Reagan did little to change their minds the day after the Convention on. Friday August Twentieth Nineteen seventy sex before leaving Kansas City to return to California, Reagan gathered those who had worked tirelessly for his campaign. Several were seen crying as Reagan, thanked him profusely and said his goodbyes telling them we lost. But the cause goes on in those words many political pundits heard a final departure from politics. The conservative movement will survive Reagan seemed to say, but without him. However Reagan didn't end his goodbye to his adviser staff and volunteers on that note instead, the storyteller is said to have reached back to his youth recall a few lines from all ballot he knew about the Scottish Sailor Sir Andrew Barton. I'll lay me down and bleed awhile although I am wounded I am not slain I shall rise and fight again. Democrats in the media close the book on Reagan. All they wanted. But those who knew him best new Dutch was far from done wounded perhaps but not out of the fight. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, six Gerald Ford Lost Jimmy Carter in the presidential election which Reagan and many other Republicans saw as a call for the party to finally embrace the conservative movement. Make the shift to the right that Reagan had argued for throughout the nineteen seventy, six campaign. Over. The next three years Reagan Watch Carter Flounder both at home and abroad under Carter's watch inflation soared unemployment rose and the country moved into a recession Republicans and even significant number of Democrats came to view Carter as weak and helpless. They argued that another four years with him in the White House would diminish the United States standing on the world stage and weaken their fight against the Soviets for many these fears about Carter seemed justified when on November fourth nineteen seventy-nine Iranian militants protesting US support for the Shah of Iran sees the American. Embassy in Tehran and took fifty two Americans hostage. With a Believer Democrat in the White House the Republican Party saw an opportunity to take control as the nineteen eighty election season approached answering the call Ronald Reagan announced his candidacy for President on November thirteenth. Nineteen, seventy-nine in New York City, less than two weeks after the Americans were taken hostage for many. The staunch outspoken opponent of Communism was the clear choice to challenge President Carter supporters even. Pointed to his speech at the Nineteen, seventy, six convention has his claim to be the next Republican nominee for president, fully re-energize after his lost afford an eager to combat what he saw as true threats to the American way of life and Reagan chose a famous slogan. Let's make America. Great. Again, he strove to demonstrate how the country's former greatness could only be regained through the conservative movement. Not everyone agreed and Reagan soon found himself at odds once again with a moderate wing of his own party, many of these moderates argued that Reagan's rhetoric towards the Soviet Union served to push the United States closer to nuclear war others express fear that Reagan's brand conservatism wouldn't play to the general population that if Reagan was their nominee, the Republicans would find themselves on the losing end of yet another national election still others pointed to down ballot elections for the cause for concern suggested Reagan might polarize the Republican base and bring down Senate and House candidates with him. The longtime divide between moderates and conservatives in the Republican. Party lend to a crowded field and a range of obstacles for Reagan. Early in the race, he was faced with multiple challenges including Tennessee Senator Howard Baker former secretary of the Treasury John Conley House members from Illinois, Philip Crane, and John, Anderson, and Gerald Ford's running mate Bob Dole. Some moderates even push Gerald Ford to run again, a will-he-won`t-he narrative started to build around the former president journalist and biographer lou cannon would later write about those early days of the nineteen eighty primary for the Washington. Post. Saying the entire Republican establishment trying to prevent Reagan from becoming the party's presidential nominee. Despite, all the challenges. One man in particular would separate himself from the rest of the pack decorated World War Two veteran and former head of the CIA George Herbert Walker Bush would emerge his party's best chance to stop Reagan and to keep Republicans in a more moderate lane while Reagan held an image as a hero based on his roles in Hollywood movies George, h w Bush supporters were trying to show the American people that their candidate was the real thing. With his extensive military intelligence background Bush would be presented as a president we won't have to train and on the campaign trail, the two men would find themselves at odds. They would rarely find common ground on economic policy or the best way to deal with the Soviets additionally there vastly different personalities would create a sense that the two men simply didn't like each other when asked by campaign eight about his feelings towards Bush Reagan would simply say that Bush lacked spunk. Contest between Reagan and Bush then would come to symbolize the conflict within the party itself while Reagan would maintain his frontrunner status. Early on George H, w Bush would do everything in his power to deliver an upset victory in the country's first vote at the election sees. Bush believed that a surprise victory in Iowa could cast doubt on Reagan's campaign. Changed the face of the Republican primary. It's early January nineteen eighty. George H, W Bush takes the stage at the Des Moines Civic. Center for the first of its kind republican primary debate in Iowa. The last time to Republican candidates held anything close to a primary debate was in nineteen forty eight when New York governor Thomas Dewey and former Minnesota governor. Harold. Stassen. When head to hand over the issue of communism days before the Oregon primary. Bush spent much of the past year crisscrossing the state engaging what experts blindly called retail politics but the strategy had paid off and Bush has gone from being an asterisk in early polls to a rising favorite among voters and a winner of multiple Iowa Gop Straw polls. But on the advice from his campaign manager, John Sears Ronald Reagan has chosen to skip the debate. Reagan's advisers told him that as the front runner, the event is unnecessary. So Bush's this moment as his chance to steal the top spot from Reagan and sell himself to the American people as a moderate who will work across the aisle I support the multilateral efforts that the president is making in trying to mobilize the UN. The issue on the table not surprisingly is the ongoing hostage crisis in Iran while other Republicans on the stage stress President, Carter's failures, and the United States need to take unilateral action against Iran Bush remains pragmatic as the former ambassador to the UN he knows first-hand how difficult it can be for the UN to take action. Still he believes the United States can show strength without having to go it alone and he does not see attacking President Carter as the best way to secure the safe return of the hostages in Iran as president indicates a certain escalation in tightening of things in relation to the hostage situation I'll support him. In discussing Iran Bush manages to distinguish himself from the other men on the stage but Bush knows the candidate he has to beat is the one who isn't there. When the candidates are asked, how they differ from Ronald Reagan Bush seizes the opportunity to paint himself as the more experienced candidate and look at the experience I've had in foreign affairs being your ambassador in China your ambassador in the United Nations running the Central Intelligence Agency being headed this party on a full-time basis. Bush reiterates his central campaign message. He won't need training, he will be ready on day one while he's able to lean heavily on his foreign affairs experience. Bush highlights his expertise on domestic affairs to and the economy to further distance himself from Reagan who came to politics be Hollywood, and so I would emphasize an answer to the question. That, the breadth of experience I've had in the conviction I have in foreign affairs and domestic affairs and building business. I. Believe the only candidate here that did that met a payroll I believe those things are very important. Highlighting his experience proved to be the right move for George H. W Bush, his debate performance was viewed as a success. Many pundits declared him the clear winner of the night and so is growing reputation as the smart moderate choice and his Iowa Organization. Strong ground game brought him within striking distance of Ron Reagan when the polls opened on January twenty first nineteen. Eighty by the time, the results were in later that night George Bush had pulled off an upset in soundly beat Ronald Reagan and the rest of the field at the Iowa caucus with an early delegate lead he turned his eyes immediately to New Hampshire and looked for a way to make the next major debate an even bigger success than the one in Iowa. Sitting on his campaign plane as it headed from. Iowa, to new, Hampshire George Bush recounted world, war, two stories for the Press Pool Writer Walter Shapiro was on board, and he would later note that while telling war stories, Bush refrained from discussing personal heroics despite the fact that he'd been a decorated naval aviator. Instead Bush liked to regale listeners with dramatic tales of mishaps on aircraft carriers and lay out plane formations using salt and Pepper Shakers Schapira suggested the com- humble. Bush showed on the flight tuna. was indirect. To some of his past behaviors on the campaign trail. One of the more famous somewhat surprising moments had occurred at a Ymca in Des Moines George. Bush generally thought to be reserved by nature had gotten down on the ground and start doing pushups in an attempt to prove that he was in his words up for the eighties while Ronald Reagan thirteen years senior was not but winning the Iowa caucus seemed to restore Bush's concentration and he landed in New Hampshire, feeling upbeat, and determined to keep the momentum going to keep the big Mo as he called it. The New Hampshire primary debate was still weeks away but Bush was determined to get his message out to everyone who would listen he believed if he could follow up his success in Iowa with a win in the granite state, you would be seen nationwide as the Republican front runner. Ronald Reagan though was not wanNA panic remain calm under pressure had helped him call baseball games even when the wire went down and it had allowed him to maneuver the myriad of obstacles. Hollywood presented he'd been far worse positions early in the nineteen seventy six primary against Gerald Ford to and though Reagan ultimately lost afford he'd overcome a huge deficit polls and early primary votes to present a real challenge to the sitting president. So when people had counted Reagan out, he came roaring back forced an open convention when the votes were finally tallied in nineteen seventy six. Ronald. Reagan had come closer to unseating an incumbent Republican president than any Republican nominee since Teddy Roosevelt. William Howard Taft in one thousand, nine hundred. But it was true. The Iowa caucus was a disappointment rain. Still it was no cost to change his message messaging alter his strategy. He thought before Iowa internal numbers from his campaign showed Reagan, with a nineteen point lead Bush New Hampshire after Iowa internal campaign number showed him trailing Bush by six points. Still as far as anyone could see, Reagan wasn't panicking behind the scenes though his campaign manager John Sears was growing anxious still Reagan saw. As an opportunity to quickly right the ship. Despite trailing in the early delegate count, Reagan's can't firmly believe winning a New Hampshire could restore his front runner status in the Republican. Field and set up a clear and easy path to victory new. Hampshire debate would give Reagan. The perfect opportunity to separate himself from the new moderate rival George Bush. Much of Reagan's let's make great campaign focused on the United States international standing. He argued for more aggressive posture towards the Soviet. Union he promised that if elected the US would engage in a massive rearmament effort and revisit salt to a proposed arms treaty with the Soviets that Reagan vehemently disagreed with. He Bush differed in their approach to foreign policy. Reagan knew that wasn't the best way to attack his opponent Bush had served bravely in World War. Two he had worked as an ambassador headed the CIA, his foreign policy credentials were a strength, not a weakness. So instead, Reagan would highlight the domestic aspects of his plan for making America great again. Reagan believed the federal government itself played a major role in the decline of America's success. He painted Washington DC as a place run by entrenched crafts with far too much power and an inability to get anything done. Reagan suggested that along with political elites and DC powerbrokers Washington insiders had taken away the voice of the people. Reagan had been in politics for over a decade and worked in Hollywood for twenty years before that still he presented himself as. A. Folksy mid Westerner who deeply understood the plight of the average American Reagan. New George H W Bush could not say the same as the Science of Prescott Sheldon Bush a wealthy investment banker and former United States senator from Connecticut Bush was an elite as someone who had worked in and around government for the larger part of his career. George Herbert Walker Bush could be painted as an insider, a part of the broken system that needed to be fixed. As Reagan continued to push his attack on bureaucracy and big government leading up to the New Hampshire, debate some on the left and in the national media began to write them off. They accuse Reagan of making misleading statements regarding the economy and US foreign affairs. They noted how Reagan. Seem to never have thought out when he was going to say until we appear to stumble a times when speaking but not all on the left were convinced that Reagan was not a threat but former Democratic rival of Reagans and California told The New Yorker he's not a fool, the national media underestimate him. For those who truly understood rain they saw in him a brilliant performer who easily connected with rank and file Americans in covering Reagan on the campaign trail rider Elizabeth drew said, Reagan speaks to people's resentment as in nineteen seventy six. He is the candidate of indignation. Now, he's added the politics of Nostalgia Reagan does not disappoint his audiences nor they him. And it was exactly people's resentment and the politics of nostalgia that Reagan would use as weapons in New Hampshire to set himself apart from George Bush. The New Hampshire debate scheduled take place on February twenty third had already sparked controversy among Republicans Reagan had told his campaign manager John Sears. He would not sit in the Hampshire out has he done in Iowa wants this was made public the Bush camp's sought a one on one debate with Reagan believing this could be their chance to deliver a knockout blow to the rest of the field improved that. Iowa. Was Not a fluke Bush staffers and many among the Republican leadership saw New Hampshire as an opportunity to put an end to Reagan's chances for the presidency and to stifle the growing power of the conservative wing of the party having the two candidates alone onstage they thought gave Bush a much better chance to show why he was the right man to take on President Jimmy Carter in a national election. The NASHUA Telegraph was set to host the debate, but the Federal Elections Commission informed the newspaper that if they were the debate sponsor, all of the primary candidates would have to take part neither Bush nor the paper wanted this. So they approach Reagan with another option, the Reagan camp could pay for the one on one debate and it wouldn't be subject to the rules of the F. E. C.. If Reagan paid, they could leave the other candidates off the stage. Reagan's campaign agreed to pay thirty, five hundred dollars for the event and allow the telegraphed host Bush those at the paper thought they'd gotten everything they wanted but like many in the national media they had underestimated. Ronald. Reagan. As George Herbert. Walker Bush prepare for what he saw as the most important night of his political career. Ronald. Reagan. To set up an event that ensured the story out of New Hampshire would solely focus on him with the debate only a few days away. Reagan's set the stage for night that would come to be known as the turning point of the nineteen eighty campaign in the end it wouldn't be Reagan's views on the federal government or a stance on the Soviet Union that would change the course of the Republican primary. It would simply be his long-held ability to improvise. On Saturday February twenty third nineteen, a raucous crowd of New Hampshire voters piled into the National Senior High School Auditorium to hear from two leading Republican candidates, Ronald Reagan and George H W Bush. Both campaigns understood the result in New Hampshire could likely decide how the primary would play out if Bush could beat Reagan. Again, he can carve a wide path to the nomination and outcome that would have seemed impossible just months earlier if Reagan can right the ship in New Hampshire though he could write off Bush's Iowa performance as an aberration and reclaim his front runner status. John Breen editor of the Nashua Telegraph and moderator for the debate introduced the candidates and Reagan and Bush took the stage the crowd erupted. It wasn't the standard applause for favorite candidate. Something else was happening inside the auditorium and everyone knew it. Bush and bringing turn to see senators. Bob Dole and Howard Baker and Illinois representatives John Anderson and Phil Crane taking the stage unbeknownst to in the Bush camp or at the Nashua Telegraph Ronald. Reagan had invited the rest of the candidates to participate in the event. He didn't tell Bush or Breen in advance. Stunned and feeling as though, he'd been made to look like a fool the moderator bream attempted to shout down the crowd in order to make an announcement he accused Reagan of breaking the rules of the debate Reagan back and asked to make an announcement of his own as Reagan tried to speak John Breen call for the sound man to cut off Reagan's microphone. With us then please terms director. Is. Mr Green determine on my. For. Hey this microphone. Crowd, noise drown out brains reply. Reagan. Then demanded breen let the other candidates participate in the debate the crowd cheered even more. The improvised line I am paying for this microphone Mr. Green. Complete with a mispronunciation of John Breen's name became the only news that mattered from the New Hampshire debate exchanges on foreign and domestic policy were easily washed over many people's zeroed in on the fact that while Ronald Reagan took on the moderator and call for every candidate to be heard George H W Bush froze and looked down at his notes Reagan. Himself would later say his improvise line his performance. In new, Hampshire may have won him the nomination years later Bobby Molloy sound man who refused to cut Reagan's Mike gave an interview to a local New Hampshire TV station recounting the moment. George. W BUSH GETS UP ON STAGE AND WE'VE got some video. We can take a look at he goes up on the stage and goes up has a drink of water and you clearly trying to sort of take command of the situation and then Reagan goes up there. What is going on here? People confused at all about what's happening? Yes because. I would say they really didn't know what the program is because the playbill promoted the Bush Reagan, debate? and the other four came out with Reagan right right behind him and I kinda felt bad for them because they were like little sheet being you know they were standing behind George Bush and they didn't say anything they didn't do it. They would just kind of motionless and you looking at like four lamps standing behind guy. Take us back to that day in Nashua. What did you notice about Governor Reagan as he arrived? As he arrived his face was red. Over in the first thing he did was he grabbed the microphone and as you heard him, say assisting on. So he went up there and he wanted to explain to people what had actually transpired. And as he started to do it. John Rena, asked me to join the microphone off which I obviously wouldn't do and didn't do. Law then explains to another reporter why he wouldn't do. I wouldn't do it for two reasons. Number one I wouldn't be that route to a man who guest in your auditorium and secondly wasn't footing the bill for it in the end Malloy. Thanks Reagan probably got his money's worth. I was probably the best thirty, five, hundred bucks a restaurant in his life. Thanks in part to sound man Bob Malloy. Ronald Reagan went on to win New Hampshire easily and several of the men Malloy called little sheep quickly dropped out of the race George Bush kept fighting though he competed in thirty three more primary against Reagan. He lost twenty nine calls for Bush to drop out of the race came from the Reagan crown for months. But Bush believed the longer he stayed in the better chance he had for the vice presidency. With a nomination fairly in hand Reagan wasn't sure he wanted Bush vp the two men disagreed on a number of issues of policy they had very different personalities but Bush was a moderate many Republicans thought a moderate was exactly what Reagan needed on the ticket. When. It became clear that Reagan would be the nominee. Reagan's conservatism became a much bigger issue in the media and the idea of a Reagan presidency started to spark fear and many across the country while campaigning for Jimmy Carter Kereta Scott King wife of the late Dr Martin Luther. King Junior said I am scared that if Ronald Reagan gets into office, we are going to see more of the Ku Klux Klan and A. Resurgence of the Nazi party distrust of Reagan and the Conservative movement caused John Anderson recently, a Republican candidate to run for the president as an independent. So the GOP believe choosing a moderate running mate would ease some of the concerns among Republican and Democratic voters many suggested Reagan should call on his old rival former president Gerald Ford to run with him. They saw the Reagan Ford Combo as an unbeatable ticket, but there was Talk at Ford when only join Reagan if Henry Kissinger with brought on to be Secretary of State and Alan Greenspan was chosen to head up treasury those close to Reagan, and even Reagan himself were said to view those demands as Ludicrous Greenspan and Kissinger were exactly the type of Washington insiders Reagan was running against and then any further chance of a Reagan Ford ticket vanished when Ford sat down for an interview with Walter. CRONKITE cronkite brought up a rumor that Ford and Reagan were working on a deal for a CO presidency. Watching at home Reagan is said to have been appalled at four didn't deny the rumor outright. So on July Seventeenth nineteen eighty during the final day of the Republican National Convention Reagan officially announced that George Herbert Walker Bush would be his running mate and that together they would keep Jimmy Carter from winning a second term. President Jimmy Carter had gone through his own battle in the Democratic primary, ultimately fending off a challenge from Massachusetts, Senator, Ted Kennedy. The heated contest had caused a split among Democrats and many believed it further weakened Carter's chances of winning reelection still despite a fractured party economic troubles and the lingering Iran hostage crisis poll showed Carter and his running mate. Vice President Walter. Mondale in almost dead heat with Reagan and Bush in October national polls went back and forth as both sides trying to map out the clearest path to victory for Carter coalitions and the north and west that he'd form to win in seventy six would have to hold Reagan, would have to win over moderates rely on growing contingent of conservative Republicans in the East. During the fall campaign Reagan had also hoped to debate. Carter, but the president had passed because independent candidate John Anderson was taking part Carter didn't want to bolster Anderson Campaign in any way and he saw only a benefit and letting the two wings of the Republican Party badly other without a Democrat onstage as an added distraction Carter might have been prudent to avoid a debate because after his one on one debate with Reagan Anderson's poll numbers plummeted and his candidacy was all over. So with national poll shifting between Reagan and Carter almost continuously the American people seemed undecided this change Carter's calculus. It was now time to take on Reagan in a debate just one week before the election. So once again, with cameras rolling and the American people watching at home, Ronald Reagan would shine. It's October twenty eighth, Nineteen Eighty the public auditorium in Cleveland Ohio's packed for the first and only debate between President Jimmy Carter and former California governor Ronald Reagan. Carter and Reagan take their spots behind their podiums. It's clear early on the Carter hopes to paint Reagan as a trigger. Happy Arch Conservative itching for war with the Soviets and itching to take away any safety net for the American people both I. All my predecessors have had a deep commitment to controlling the proliferation of nuclear weapons in countries like Libya or Iraq. We have even agent is some of our closest trade partners because we've have insisted upon control of the spread of nuclear weapons to those potentially terrorist countries. When Governor Reagan has been asked about that. He makes it very disturbing comment that non-proliferation or the control of the spread of nuclear weapons is none of our business. But Reagan uses Carter's answer on terrorism to take a strong stand of his own and give the media clear. Sound Bite. They can take away from the debate I believe it is high time. That the civilized countries of the world made it plain that there is no room worldwide for terrorism there will be no negotiation with terrorist of any kind. Reagan goes on to deny Carter's accusation the non-proliferation was number business, but as often the case with Ronald, Reagan his most shiny moment comes in an off the cuff remark when Carter Attacks Reagan for opposing Medicare and aspects of national health insurance for poor Americans. Reagan doesn't get angry or loses cool. He smiles chuckles and others of phrase that would become part of political lore. Now you go again. But his most memorable words come in the final moments of the debate in his closing remarks, Reagan talks directly to the American people and draws in his audience with his gift of Gab. Next Tuesday's election. Next Tuesday all of you will go to the polls. Stand there in the polling place and make a decision. I think when you make that decision might be well if you would ask her. Are you better off. Than you were four years ago. The importance of the debate between Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan was reflected in the number of people tuning in to watch the almost eighty one, million television viewers may dis the most watched presidential debate in American history and that record would hold until the first debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump in two, thousand sixteen. The following day news highlights of the debate were dominated by going reviews of Reagan's performance and justice. He was able to New Hampshire against George H W Bush in his debate against Carter Reagan succeeded in making the news of the debate all about him. On November fourth as Americans made their way to the polls, both sides believe the election would be a nail biter happily faded within ninety minutes of election returns coming in. It was clear even early on that Ronald Reagan would be the next president of the United States and it wouldn't be close and all Reagan one, four, hundred, eighty, nine electoral votes. To Carter's forty, nine, Karner carried his home state of Georgia Mondale's home state of Minnesota Maryland Hawaii West Virginia Rhode Island and the District of Columbia John Anderson running as an independent secured under seven percent of the popular vote. But no electoral votes, Reagan's percentage of the electoral vote was the highest ever won by a first time president-elect other than George Washington. And riding on his coattails, Republicans reclaim control of the United States Senate this marked the first time. The Republican Party had controlled either chamber of Congress since one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four. In his victory speech from Los. Angeles Ronald Reagan. Thanked all of his supporters on behalf of himself and his wife Nancy. He thanked President Carter for his graciousness and then took a moment to give special thanks to the newly elected vice president and his wife saying that no one worked harder for the campaign than George and Barbara, Bush that he looked forward to having a true partnership and true friendship in. The. White House Reagan then spoke of his belief in the American people I am not frightened by what lies ahead he said together, we're going to do what has to be done. Reagan's election would prove to be a seismic shift in the Republican Party and the American political system. The roots of modern conservatism had perhaps begun back in the nineteen sixty four election with the nomination of failed Republican candidate Barry Goldwater. But goldwater started. Seeing determined to finish the sixth party system as it's called by historians was crystallized with Reagan's election with his inauguration in January nineteen eighty-one America. was in the throes of the Reagan Revolution. Next on American elections wicky gain the election of Nineteen eighty-four with a Republican controlled Senate and a clear mandate from the American people. Ronald Reagan sets out to show. American. Strength Abroad and to reduce the role of big government at home the idea that his political future will ever be unquestioned seemed impossible but a widening wealth gap and along gunman's bullet will threaten his first term and his prospects. For reelection don't miss a single week of our march from seventeen, eighty, nine to twenty twenty, hit the subscribe button on your podcast APP. Now, this show is supported by you our listeners please give us a rainy aleve review, but the single best way to help the show is to tell others share with your friends and family find on social media and wicked Game Pot and I'm at Lindsey Adrian. To support the show is to go to wicked game podcast DOT COM members there get early access to add free episodes as well as bonus content only available to members find out more at Waikiki game podcast, dot com about our reenactments. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, but everything our show is heavily researched and based on surviving historical. Documents wicked game isn't airship production created hosted and executive produced by me Lindsey Graham Audio Editing Molly Bach sound design by Derek Barron's CO executive produced by Stephen Walters in association with ritual productions. This episode written and researched by Michael Federico fact checking by Greg Jackson C. L. Salazar from the podcast history that doesn't suck music by Lindsey cramped distributed by wondering.

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Ep. 417  Jon Meacham

The Axe Files with David Axelrod

1:05:42 hr | Last month

Ep. 417 Jon Meacham

"The end now from university of chicago institute of politics and cnn audio the axe files with your host. David axelrod jon. Meacham has one of those resumes. That just makes you wanna shake your head a prodigy in journalism of pulitzer prize. Winning historian and biographer television commentator and part time professor of theology and he's still in the prime of life. I sat down with meacham. Yesterday's the hours ticked down on the campaign to talk about this moment in. Its meaning and much more. Here's that conversation jon meacham. It's great to see you at at an auspicious time for our country. I thought who better to sit down with than some than someone who chronicles history So welcome in. tell me Tell me tell me about the moment. Wherein it's i hope it's auspicious That is a more of a Optimistic and forward leaning in sales bishops. Because there is a certain majesty to the american people raising their voices and this this You know i see these I see these images of all these people waiting online sometimes for eight nine hours to make sure that their vote is counted and I i'm i'm you know i'm inspired by it as it was when i started my passion for this as a little boy. Yeah well. I was Six when i first went to a polling place. My grandfather was on the ballot in a municipal election in chattanooga tennessee in the spring of nineteen seventy five and my main memory of election. Night was they had these really nice square cupcakes. That were really good But i had the same reaction. I used to go to the fire hall At the foot of the part of missionary ridge where braxton bragg's headquarters had been on the top of the hill the general who got run out of there by grant and precisely i grew up eight hundred yards from the spot at which man was able to go into georgia and about three miles away from chief. John ross's house so to me. History was always quite tactile. It was right there There is a majesty to this And you you don't have to be hopelessly romantic as the two of us are to appreciate the remarkable and durable experiment of my. My slight caveat is. I like you believe this is an existential moment I think the character of our democratic lower case d. institutions is very much on on the ballot. And i wasn't and for whatever it's worth. I wasn't a doomsayer for years ago i understood At least intellectually. That enough people believed as it turned out. Forty six point one percent of them believed that the consensus that had run really from fdr through obama was not commensurate with what they wanted and they. It wasn't being in their view responsive to to their needs and they were willing to take a flyer on He wildly unconventional president. But the evidence of the last three years is that. I don't see how there's a rational pro trump case at this point If you're if you are a republican who believes in lower taxes believes in less regulation And isn't worried about judges. You're really voting against a caricature of biden. Seems to me more than you can. Rationally vote for the president. Now you don't need me to be a pundit what i think that means historic that's one of your sixteen hats so you might have but but what i think is to me. What's so fascinating is in. It's a two prong point and and and you assess the validity of these statements as we ask students to do One is trump is not an aberration. There are perennial forces in american life of populism racism. Xenophobia native ism extremism that and flow at various points of stress so in that sense. He's not unique he's simply the fullest manifestation and the most successful electorally such figure in american history. So that's one thing. The second thing though is this is where he's different. I think is i really do believe. And i've talked to your old boss about this. As well as clinton and bush forty three and they all agreed with it that from nineteen thirty three to twenty seventeen we lived in a country that was essentially governed by a figurative conversation between fdr and reagan and every american president was playing on a field marked by those two polls are buoy. Pick your pick your image. You debated whether to raise or lower the role the state in the marketplace. You debated the nature of projections of force against commonly agreed upon foes and rivals but it was a coherent recognizable conversation and said of responses to familiar challenges. This is not the last three and a half. Years is not a sequential chapter in that conversation. And i think what's what's so important. This week is the vices and the virtues of a restoration of that conversation may be what we're dealing with. If vice president biden wins he is a figure totally conversant and fluent in that consensus conversation. and that has many virtues but it also has some vices and he's going to have immense pressure from the left. He's going to have an organized machinery of conflict of opposition. That you know better than anybody will just start the moment. This is over. If if in fact it ends well An ins cleanly saying that. He is a pro socialist. Who is a kind of trojan horse. And it's going to be immensely hard. It seems to me. I don't envy i. I never thought. I would say this. But i don't envy. If he becomes the forty-six president he faces as difficult a task. I think as Anybody since fdr because we used to say that about barack obama in two thousand nine. And it's like those base by say like those baseball records you know in the steroid era. They don't last very long but he is. Clearly i think going to have a a diff- more difficult hand even than we did because the virus will still be with us. The economy is going to be Where where you know worn by it. Still and And there are so many scars from this last four years. But i i would just you know since you've threw it out there i would just say It's important to recognize. This isn't just an american phenomenon. It is is most It is most evident here because of who we are and how we think of ourselves because we are a dominant player in the world. But when you look at what's happening in europe for example We've seen the emergence of these same kinds of And i do think you know there are few things. John one is The We have we are changed. Driven by technologies coming at us at warp speed and with it has It comes at the same time as demographic change and so that has created economic conditions cultural conditions. That have given a that have made it easier to give rise to trump. The other thing is and we have to be candid about it You know trump Drew a good hand in two thousand and sixteen. Hillary clinton you know Partly because of things. She did and a lot because of what things things that were done to. Her was a very unpopular candidate by the end of that election. And maybe the only person he could have beaten on that particular day so But but i don't. I think the real question is does does capitalism does democracy respond to the pressures that people are feeling from this warp speed change. That's coming our way and you know one of the one of the mismatch is we have is between The the pace of change which comes faster and faster and the design of our government which is meant to move slowly when the country is divided. So you have a a government. That doesn't seem agile At a time when people are hungry for some sort of ballast You know in the storm. Yeah you're absolutely right. The last two moments where that point was made with conviction and Clarity was the turn of the twentieth century As the progressive era took shane as a response to industrialisation and really the period from nineteen twenty years so Through the new deal and morrow lindbergh wrote a book called the wave of the future. And is charles lindbergh's wife an interview. The wave of the future was not democratic capitalism but was european style strongman to talibanism because the world is moving so rapidly that eighteenth century structure was not commensurate with the challenges of Shifting economy nineteen twenty was the first period versus where more of us lived in cities than on farms The immigration was way up The ku klux klan had been refounded in nineteen. Fifteen as you remember. You aren't thank you were there. But in nineteen twenty four Fat your page may be the nineteen twenty. Four democratic convention went to a hundred and three ballots because there were three hundred and forty seven clan. delegates who wouldn't vote for al smith because he was an irish cow right. And what did we do. In twenty four we restricted immigration. We raise tariffs The other thing by the way the interruption tell you. My father was an immigrant from eastern europe. He got here. Nineteen twenty two if he had arrived if he had tried to come just a few years later like yet he wouldn't have been admitted to the country. I think about it all the time in these immigration debates because i'd like to think that our families contributed something sure and I think about all the other people like us and You know we very nearly didn't get that opportunity and twenty the nineteen twenty four Immigration caps are what was the prevailing law in the late nineteen thirties and that was what. Fdr cited in not allowing more refugees from hitler. Dry yes And it really wasn't undone. Until was a little bit. Under a in the truman years. But chiefly which was i would johnson that the emigrant immigration and nationality act of nineteen sixty five along with the civil rights act and the voting rights act really created modern america. That is that we debate sixteen. Nineteen in seventeen. Seventy six seventy seven. I think the america you're seeing with these early voting lines the america that is all around us. Right now is fifty five years old because my native region. We didn't have a presidential election in the american south until nineteen sixty eight. That didn't have some form of apartheid right. so in my lifetime. Right so You know this is. This is a very recent Experiment in in multi-ethnic felt one of the it is one of the forces that it you know we have to. We have to navigate Because the that change for frankly. The republican party At peration allies those divisions to their sure that that's how your region fell into the republican column was resistance to those changes and trump has gone farther than anyone probably since george wallace in exploiting them But it's one of the things you know. I think that you know. I'm of the view that this diversity is a great strength but But these are the forces. I gotta ask you something about this you And i know that you probably Heard some commentary on this but you're a commentator and historian and many other things but you are on television the night of the first presidential debate and You said of trump's performance. I think it was the first debate. I think trump did himself good with his base tonight. The question for america's how big that base is. There is a lizard brain in this country. Donald trump is the product of the white man of the white man's the anguish. Nervous white guys lizard brain and It had a little bit of an echo of of the deplorables of hillary's kind of comment pakistan. Or at least that's the way You know some folks mentioned it to me. I know would just explain explain yourself. We have delay. It was the second debate by the way and so second debate Which was here in. Nashville and i went to it Which i'd never done. I've never been in a general election debate in the hall and I don't think i'll ever go back because it was so different A it was interesting but not particularly useful So i i tell you what. It's better than it's better than being an advisor to the pacing wildly and dying with every word. That's spoken but that i that i am sure of. So here's what happened and my twelve year old. And i were there and frankly in the room. Donald trump won that debate. He owned the room. It was a alpha male performance The vice president appeared again in the room defensive and not particularly responsive to a series of if incoherent at least well launched attacks does that distinction make sense. Yeah and i was not trying to be clever. And that's the thing. I always check in with on myself Was i was going for a laugh. Was i going for you know. Oh he's cute. he's you know he's now. It wasn't that i genuinely believe that donald trump would not be president without the elemental concerns of a large number of largely white men. Who to go to your point a moment ago believe that history is slipping away from the loss of place and they t the diversity that is easy to celebrate if you're on the right side of the economic equation is less easy To confront and manage and decide what you think about it If you're on the other side and that's i'm not saying that's good but that's true. It's just accurate that that's that's what unfolds and i think it's elemental now if i had said This is an That that trump is because he is a product of it. It's it's not as though the establishment republican party of low taxes and less regulation got together in early sixteen and said hey i know let's have donald trump run. Yeah right yeah. He was not an invited guest he came out of the elemental part and then and we let them but just for context. You know he he. He knows how to exploit that He knows how to exploit that sense of loss in that sense of grievance in that sense of resentment he came out of wealth and privilege Yeah i don't think it's like the deplorables thing i think. Honestly it's more like The obama was at pennsylvania the dealings of their guns. That wasn't good either. Actually yeah this is so this. Is i want your council on this so i don't think you would have asked me that question. I don't think you were. You're probably on tv at that hour I got no. There was nothing about it so it was delivered at about say midnight eastern time. At ten o'clock the nothing happened and again. I wasn't trying to be clever. I've thought and if anybody thinks that donald trump does not benefit from grievance than they should turn. This wasn't the point it was just the lizard. Right so what i. So my regret is that i. I will provided fuel for the fox machine because this did not become noticed until laura ingraham the next night put tyrod on meacham calls trump supporters lizard brains which i did not do. Yeah but it went because there is this perpetual machinery of conflict that requires any kind of fuel. Doesn't matter what it is and i provided some fuel and so i regret that If i'd said that he was a product of elemental anxieties about economic place and culture and identity. It would have been predictably kind of unclear and nobody would have noticed so. I'm gonna go back to being predictably unclear. Well this is what happens when you when the historian dips toe into into this world. You know yeah. Let me ask you something about that. i do. I do john before you start. I do i have a sensitivity to this. Because i do believe that if we are going to if we are going to Move beyond this painful period. Then it's going to require a real effort to To understand each other and so avoiding making judge judgments e or sounding judgmental think is is is is part of that in one of the reasons biden if by wins on tuesday If he wins it's partly because He comes from a place that is culturally More familiar to To some of these trump voters some of whom are not going to vote for trump. I mean the reason trump said a million times here and elsewhere. The reason trump didn't want biden was because he's he was culturally inconvenient He he has a bridge to that group of voters. But so that's my only. I don't want to beat this thing to death nor do i nor am i. You know i didn't i didn't make the point to prosecute you for it but it's an interesting discussion. I'm prosecuting mice. Oral trying myself when we put. I'm not prosecuting myself. Because i do think this is important for exactly the reason you just said. My whole goal is to because the world doesn't need one more political commentator on the tweet of the hour. What i've tried very hard to do for a long time is discussed the present implicitly alluding to the fax and drama of the past because i think if you talk about things in historical terms you widen the aperture for possible by an folks on the right like the past folks on the left like data and the data we have and human experience is history and so. I've tried very hard to try to be a source of light and not heat and this is one where like mr magoo drove straight into the ladder And i love talking to you about it. Because i think it's important and I i made the conversation a little worse and my whole goal is to make a little better. And so i i regret that we're gonna take a short break and we'll be right back with more of the x. Files more than seventy five percent of identity theft victims who had accounts open. Their name did not find out that they had been victimized from their bank or their credit card company. What you can't see can hurt you. Don't be one of those seventy five percent who didn't check more places identity theft could be hiding. Get lifelock identity theft protection. Lifelock certain threats. You could miss if you're only monitoring your credit and bank statements and they alert you if you find something that could be suspicious plus if you become a victim of identity theft. Us based identity restoration specialist dedicated to your case will work to fix it. No one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses. But you can find out if your information has been found on the dark web. Get your free dark web scan at lifelock dot com slash scan. Then pick the plan. That's right for you and save up to twenty five percent off your first year with promo code x. files that's a free scan at lifelock dot com slash scan and twenty five percent off with the promo code x. files and now back to the show. We talked about race a little bit earlier. And i want wanna ask you about your perspective. You you you alluded to the fact that you come from The from chattanooga and the hills of a check chattanooga and you talked about the civil war history that drew in and so on You also you you were born just a little bit after. The civil rights movement was in its heyday but You know this is still a An open wound in our history and so on and i'm just wondering as a child You processed the issue of race. And i am i i wanna ask it. In the context of the book you just wrote about about john. Lewis who incidentally got his start in in tennessee His civil rights career began down there at lunch counter Sins so yeah he. He came here From troy in the fall of nineteen fifty seven to be a become a student at american baptist theological seminary Which is now american baptist. College right across the cumberland river. I'm actually teaching there. The semester says little Little school about sixty students now And one of the many biblical notes. John's life is. He went to a hill and received a new commission. Came down and and brought the truth to us I loved him And my first significant memory of what we would think of as race in america was the summer of nineteen eighty It was the third week of july. Thank and in april of nineteen eighty on april. Nineteenth nineteen eighty. Three ku klux klansmen had a shotgun and drove through the downtown section of of chattanooga and opened fire wounding ultimately four women Did not kill them. Miraculously and then an all white jury. In hamilton county court of tennessee. Let two of them off altogether and slapped the risks of the other kind of a workhouse sentence for a while that verdict came down. In the summer the city went into riots. And i remember being at home watching. Smoke coming up from downtown. Where in alton part neighborhood of chattanooga where people were in. Dr king's phrase a riot is the language of the unheard and they felt not only unheard but explicitly rebuked because the u the criminal justice system had said. This isn't a big enough deal to take seriously. And i remember that entirely greatly. President carter sent. Jesse jackson's were passed. That well there you go see so i was eleven years old And it's interesting again historically if you go back and look. There was a big uptick in explicit klan activity in the late seventies and i was sort of trying to out looked into this case recently and i was trying to think about it and i think that's because the affects of integration. Were becoming real. It was it was moving from the theoretical to the real. And so you had folks who felt that they were being somehow replaced. Lou chant remember from charlottesville. And so i. I don't know Where i would have been. I was born in sixty nine. I don't know where. I would have been on civil rights if i'd been born in thirty nine I'd like to think that i would have been with lewis and king and ct. Vivian but i don't know You know they're the reason this took so long here and the reason. Systemic racism persists is. Because it's really easy to be retrospectively virtuous and it's harder to be virtuous in real time and so one of the reasons. I i the endorsed biden. I spoke at the convention was because i think this is an inflection point and i don't know where i would have been then but i know where i wanna be now talk about race in history because you've written splendid biographies of to of well several presidents but well known books about Thomas jefferson and andrew jackson And you know their role On on the issue of race In different ways you know animates a lot of the discussion now. Absolutely they are vivid emblems of the best of us in the worst of us. And this is gonna sound like your old boss. A little bit My my view my whole view of history is because it's a it's kind of my view of human nature which sounds very grand but ask I know that. In the course of a day i have my better angels doing battle against my worst instincts and some days fifty one percent of the time. The better angels win. That's not very often. I don't have lots today's like that. I think the countries the same way because a republic is the sum of its parts. We are a human organism. we're not a clinical republic republic is human and in fact the constitution for all its failings is entirely designed to make change hard because they assumed in a calvinistic way that every time we try to do something you would probably be wrong more often than not it would be wrong and so I think that racism is in in the lives of jefferson and jackson is is like that. They were creatures of their time. But that's not to excuse them because there were contrary countervailing voices. I think you have to look at these figures. As part of not simply their era which again sounds kind of like a a cop out but yet to look at them as democratic lower case d. politicians and what does their action. What is their record. Tell us about where the country was because one of the things. I don't like about Blowing down all the monuments of every of every kind is because they were complicit in and defenders of white supremacy which they surely were. The problem is if you take down if if if you stop contemplating figures who had views that were reprehensible you actually let the rest of us off the hook right. They were democratic politicians are makers of manners and morals but they're also mirrors of maker matters morals and so if you were for instance to cancel andrew jackson. I think that makes it gives you a free song of virtue of virtuous conduct but it doesn't change the fact that huge swaths of this country are on land that we took from the native peoples so or in a way you wanna send one might wanna send jackson to the cross and think that that sacrifice a tones for everything. I don't think that's true. Same with jefferson and slavery slavery. Yeah i mean. I guess the answer is to try and reconcile with the legacy of all of that and try and make good on that. Which is the debate. The more constructive debate. Which is how do we fully confront that legacy. And what do we do about. I see my view again grand phrase but that the the moral utility of history is not mindless celebration or blanket condemnation. It's an engagement with human beings and if the best people if the most successful people of a given era could be so woefully wrong about such fundamental questions of identity. Then what are we missing. And can't we use history as a kind of exemplify that is a case. Study all right. Thomas jefferson wrote the most important sentence ever originally rendered in english right that all men were created equal. I am careful about that hyperbole. because you know the story about the taxes. governor candidate. Who's running who's against teaching spanish and the public schools and said if english was good enough our lord jesus christ is good enough for texas. So i'm careful about that but But he wrote that sentence it has changed more lives around the world continues to do so and yet He never he. He gave up because of political economic and cultural convenience on the issue of human enslavement. So what are we now not addressing because of political economic and cultural convenience. And i think that's. I think that's where history can help us. Yeah i just also think that there is a there is a an obvious and continuing wound that we haven't fully addressed and it is expressing itself in not just the policing issue but so many different aspects of our life in this in the form of systemic racism that you know we thought maybe we had confronted and in the sixties with the civil rights act and so on but It's more complicated than that. Don't you think. And i wanna hear you on this. Don't you think that a lot of people thought that november two thousand eight had fixed it. Yeah but not us. I don't think anyone agree with that. But for him For barack obama believed that. Somehow i mean we felt it was a step forward and i think it was a step forward. And all you have to do is is look in the eyes of young people who A young black americans who saw a him get elected president. And what that meant to them. yes it made a difference but but not not the notion that we were going to enter a post racial society. In fact. I think that it probably brought to the fore these reactionary four others that that trump has exploited. And we saw it before that election with a at those sarah palin rallies so we knew you know and i don't think any person of color in this country believe that their lives would be transformed overnight because this president elected it was a step forward and that is how we make progress. We make progress. You know in in in that in not all at once but I have to confess. John and i wrote a piece in the post about this. I thought i was pretty aware of these issues. Have been around them all my life. I spent a lot of my life trying to elect people of color to positions that had never been held by people of color before not just the presidency but governorships mayoralties and so on And i had to break. I had the bracing realization that I i never thought hard enough about what it was. Like to walk in someone else's shoes to understand What it was like to to know with some certainty that at some point you would get stopped by police into know that there'd be certain assumptions about you that You know and i think a lot of americans got wariness. The derive more awareness from what happened this summer. The question is then. what do we do with it too. Just do we congratulate ourselves for our heightened awareness or does it translate into action. And i think that has that remains to be seen. We're gonna take a short break and we'll be right back with more of the x. Files and now back to the show. We can't have this whole conversation without me asking you about your your your extraordinary journey because you started in journalism at the chattanooga times and then you had this meteoric rise. You became the editor of the washington monthly And at twenty nine years old you became The managing editor of newsweek And and then you started writing your books Tell me tell me about your transformation from a journalist historian and the link the end the kind of thread that runs through everything you do which is storytelling. It is narrative and And thank you I I did my first book Which was a portrait of the friendship between roosevelt and churchill. Yeah ripa. Thank you Because i was so consumed with how now a weekly deadline seems like you know a quarterly but but one of the things that fascinated me as i was in journalism which i loved Was the easiest suction that which which journalists tend to make that. The president was always unequal to the past. That is the the sense that you know this president or this speaker the governor. If only they could be like extra wide. We'd be better off right. There was a kind of reflexive hostility and it was to some extent. It was based on a nostalgic view of history. And so the explicit question that i wanted to answer When i started working on roosevelt and churchill was you know i bet if we had been sitting around at christmas nineteen forty one if we had been covering roosevelt and churchill. I great wartime summit. I bet we would be thinking. Gosh i wish they could be like wilson and lloyd george and damned if it wasn't true You know the key. Here's your favorite example. This the coverage of d day in june of nineteen forty four was not the liberation of a continent begins. It was. why didn't they know about the hedge. Rows right and so to me. That was kind of a revelation because it meant that we meant two things one is that nostalgia is a dangerous narcotic. Because if we lionize the past we foreclose it's possibility of teaching us because of they were so great if they were on rushmore if they were from olympus then that makes them more remote but if they were human beings who were Got some things right and some things wrong. Like franklin roosevelt franklin roosevelt managed nice -lationist country got us into a position to win and then issues executive order nine. Oh six six interning. Japanese americans of japanese descent. I don't even like calling japanese-americans they were americans who happen to be of japanese descent And i think that knowing. That story is not doesn't knock roosevelt down what it does. Is it recovers him as he was. And if a if if that's the best we can be then. We need to hold that up that we need to tell that story all the way to the book i just published on john lewis. That was not an original story. John himself told the story a lot. But i was standing with him. On the pettus bridge in march new would be his last time there and i was thinking literally lowered. There are so many millions of people who professing allegiance to religious principles and yet the gap between profession and practice is so vast. John lewis closed that gap more than anyone else. I've known in my own for twenty eight years. And i wanted to tell the story of a religiously inspired warrior for justice because and this is not an original insight because homer knew it and the writers of the bible. No hit story is the best way to reach people. And if you could hold. It seemed to me that if you could hold up john. Lewis hang a lantern on him. What particular pick your metaphor. It was a vitally important story to tell in this moment because it was about somebody who didn't just assume that the arc of moral universe with ben toward justice he insisted that it swerve and what president obama and reinhold niebuhr and others have articulated. Is this notion that if we work hard enough we get there and that's true but you got it because of the the nature of countervailing political and historical forces. You've got to have john lewis. You've got to have those folks and i think he was a saint by in a classical definition willing to die Suffered for the faith never sold out And so i What what what length. My work Which sounds horribly self-referential but it is this notion. I think that it is miraculous that we have as many moments of transcendence where both the leaders and the lead put the common good ahead of personal gain and perfection cannot be the expectation just doing as best we can and hoping we get it. Right is the more rational disposition. Yeah i'd say two things one is a had the great gift of doing my My x-files tv show with john lewis and it was one of the most moving experience as i've ever had he he he is. He was such a palpably. Good decent and optimistic person despite all that he had been through. It was really a tonic times to spend spent time with him. The second thing i'd say is about Roosevelt churchill eric. Larsen wrote a great book this year about the about nineteen forty london and and i thought was a very ground level profile of churchill as a human being And yeah these were imperfect people but they were great leaders and they were great leaders in part because they understood their duty and their responsibility and where they wanted to lead that's understood these processes of human beings are imperfect And as a result democracies are imperfect and both churchill and roosevelt among their gifts were that pragmatic sense of how to move things forward. Nah that a leader has to have i mean among the criticisms that have of this president is He doesn't have any goals beyond furtherance of his own power and interests in so at not to mention the wanton disregard for democratic institutions one of the other presidents that you wrote about woods a more contemporary president who you wrote about a george herbert walker bush and Such an interesting. I mean a president. Obama had huge Huge admiration of for him And the way he conducted himself a particularly on the global on the global scene. And you know. He served the country and so many different ways and Obviously had great reverence for the institutions of democracy And so there was that part of him he also got elected in maybe the most brutal campaign for president of our lifetimes Willy horton and all of that had the had those two things coexist the the statesman and and the guy who was a at the top of that apparatus that roger ailes and others ran fantastic question. And it's the it's the motive question of of the book. I wrote I did that book because President bush gave me his diaries He kept a presidential diary. Be dictated two or three times a week into a tape recorder He threw open the doors of the family and everything with no conditions so he didn't read the book beforehand I had the wild experience. Actually of reading parts of it to him once it was published Which was which was totally fascinating. The this president is a marvellous embodiment. An example of all the things. We've been talking about. Because as you say. He pursued power in a relentless and not always admirable way the test for me as a blog and ultimately for him. I believe as a man was less about the means than the ends. And what set. George h w bush apart from so many similar folks in in in similar context is that his end was not winning the election. His end was what did he use the power he had amassed four and that can sound justifying right or maybe like an excuse but think about the three decisions he made. That helped cost him reelection. He conducted a very limited war against saddam hussein. We forget that the invasion of kuwait was seen at the time as a possible domino into A fall of saudi arabia He did not believe he could trust Frankly the arab world to Check saddam so. He thought he had to do it. But he defined the mission he sent the troops. He did it. He came home And he knew that would cost him. He knew that it wasn't the that there wasn't a kind of battleship missouri. Moment but he knew it but he was the right thing to do so he did raising some taxes in the nineteen ninety budget deal. He knew at the time he said to his diary. I'll probably be did meet. But it's the right thing to do and he signed Incredibly far reaching legislation that drove the gingrich lead based crazy chiefly the american disabilities at. Can you imagine a republican president today signing a bill that would change every building in america and he knew that it was going to hurt him And so when you look at his life holistically. What you see is a ferociously ambitious man. But he knew why he was ambitious. He knew what he was ambitious. Four and i. I sometimes like to say about him. I didn't fall in love with him. But i came to love him. Apropos to our discussion in democracy is a is a messy imperfect kind of a process. But i i completely embrace what you're saying. I mean you can't get to the presidency. I don't excuse some of the things that they did not campaign but you can't get to the presidency without being ferociously ambitious And it is a question of what your ambitious four. We have an example. Now of what happens when your ambition. Either limited to your own personal aggrandizement. You raise the issue of of faith. And i know that this is you've written about it you've written books about it and you mentioned you're teaching at the same place where john lewis attended. Talk to me about that because there is a among elites and you are a figure who elites look to you are considered among the elite in this memory there is a kind of there is a kind of disdain for faith. No i i mean you you you shake your head but i i you know look at There is a kind of more secular nature to zip codes. Like where i'm sitting in here in new york or shirt and then and and talk to me about faith in your life and faith as you see it as part of the larger journey of a country and a society. what i think is vital I shook my head a little bit. Because i i think it's easy. I think it's easy to overstate that somehow. Another and no you're not saying this but but it probably is easy. And i probably just did it but but i think it's important to me. We have you in the presidential election this week. We have a devout practicing catholic. And he's the democrat right and So i i think that it's there are faith is ended a factor and the disposition of a lot of voters who have found president trump to be Appealing it is one of the great mysteries to me except his kind of not that much of a mystery. Would i really think it is. And elizabeth diaz wrote about this really well in the times. Not long ago is there is a streak of evangelical christianity that enjoys being persecuted. That is they find drama in the replaying the new testament tensions that they are an aggrieved minority in a country and a culture that is a raid against their beliefs. I do not share that View i think that I am a christian on a sacramento christian an episcopalian. They're six of left I say my prayers i With disappointed if my children were not to continue in in in the faith I do believe that faith and reason are the two wings that we need to to take flight to torture that metaphor a little bit. Well let me just stop you for second gas you for you personally for you personally. What does faith what does it provide. What what role does it plan your life. I believe in the faith of my fathers and it to me. It invests the earthly journey with divine origins and significance that there is an order beyond time and space that has found manifestation within time and space in acts of love and worship of a a greater. Good which is god of and it is takes human experience and is the single best tool i know against the besetting san of narcissism. That is if my view mike. Christianity is that we live in a world that has fallen and sinful and frail and fallible and that a series of events in time and space showed us a to move as close to a greater and empowering good as we can in a fallen world. But i also believe that faith requires action and that reaching out is a fundamental commandment there's a the commandment found in leviticus repeated by. Jesus is love your neighbor as yourself. Who the hell wants to do that. You know you're my friend. I wish you well you. I love your neighbor but yeah exactly do i love you. Do i love you as much as myself. No but but that's why it's so radical that's why it's so revolutionary and i've argued it in print and in the john. Lewis book in particular. Is that the religious tradition in which i was raised offers us. I think a marvelous road forward to a more inclusive and just add fairer country. Because i think if we spent a little more time focusing on the sermon on the mount then the supreme court we would begin to reorient and see our public policy choices differently. And that's why. I wanted to write about john because john was as religious. A person in american public life as we have ever known and yet there are millions and millions of people who are supporters of this president who i suspect. Don't see him that way. A a final point is it is a before you get to your point it. Is you know when you talk about faith as a as the antidote to narcissism and then you consider that peop- that The president such strong support among Evangelical 's despite his his narcissism and you know his ear religiosity It is a kind of stunning juxtaposition. It's one of the most amazing elements of this time. And we'll be writing about it and thinking about it forever and it's going to look if vice president biden becomes president biden as huge part of the opposition to him in a very organized. Public way is gonna come from that community. Starting tomorrow right. It's not gonna take this and get ready. The mo- spoken word of the last ten years has been trump. It is highly possible that the most spoken word of the next four years if biden wins is going to be socialism And and i and what. Socialism means in people's minds. Is it means their money's going out of their pockets and somehow another. The government is toppling statues of jesus. Right th there's there's a kind of socialism in secularization are to caricatures in people's minds. And that's gonna be a big fight. What i hope to do is present myself in whatever forum i happen to be and say look i believe that god created the heavens and the earth. I believe that jesus was crucified. Died and was buried and on the third day rose again in accordance with the scriptures and ascended into heaven as the death on the right hand of the father will come again with glory to judge the quicken debt. I believe what you believe. But i also believe that jesus taught us to love and not to hate and to think and not to reflexively react and i would argue this. Go to your point a few minutes ago. I would argue that. At least it gives me a chance to be heard. So i just i. I won a place at that table. And that's that's and that that's part of what my faith quite directly tells me to do. To whom much is given much as expected. So let's end with this You've done so many things in your life You're obviously mission driven You care a lot about this country Do you ever see yourself serving in public life. I two great question I have thought about it. I live in tennessee so it seems unlikely that might be neighbors. Were the country's changing. I know ido. I i believe in being Being open to all possibilities. I really do if i thought If i thought i would be good at it i would in that i could do. Good i would certainly consider it. what i have also found in middle age though. Is that knowing what you're good at is the beginning of wisdom and so for instance Because of the summer. Because of george floyd because of taylor because of jacob blake And the conversation that you were talking about about the realization of what it was like to be in in someone else's shoes. What i decided to do and i thought very hard i mean what is it what is what can i'm a. I'm a boring white. Male southern episcopalian. Things work out for me in this country. So what what. What have i got. That could help. And that's when i picked up the phone and ask john lewis's alma mater if they needed a teacher. Because that's what i do right. I talk to people about faith in history and politics I know how to do it. And i've i do feel to. Whom much is given much is expected. And i've been given so much that you know. I do want to act as well as speak It just so happens that in my case talking and teaching is the way action takes place if public you know. Look if if if there were an opportunity it would be a it would be profligate of me to to say no on the front end on. The meantime people can listen to your podcasts. It was said In which you convey some of the great an inspiring words and history. I should say though that if i were to run out would only do so if you would come run a campaign well. Have you ever worked in tennessee. I did years ago in a mayor's race down there but general. We'll we'll we'll we'll dust off the old apparatus if the time Podcast is hope through history Both well worth listening to as all. Your works are worth reading jon. Meacham really a pleasure to be with you. It's fun i am as you know. I'm a huge admirers. I you You're one of the few people you don't have to respond to this. But they're only a handful of people Who do what you do for a living. Who genuinely changed the course of the country and you did it for the better so i'm always grateful to you about me. Thank you thank you for listening to the acts file brought to you by the university of chicago institute of politics and cnn audio the executive producer of the show. Is emily standards. The show is also produced by. Miriam annenberg jeff fox hannah macdonald alison sequel and special. Thanks to our partners at cnn. Including courtney kube ashley lest and meghan marcus for more programming. I o p visit politics. You chicago dot edu.

Donald trump biden chattanooga fdr twenty five percent obama america university of chicago institut meacham eight nine hours eight hundred yards trump seventy five percent nineteen twenty years morrow lindbergh tennessee fifty five years roosevelt twelve year tyrod
2 - See Something, Say Something

So You Wanna Be President? with Chris Matthews

32:26 min | 11 months ago

2 - See Something, Say Something

"See you want to be President Chris Matthews anchor of hardball on MSNBC. We're we're talking about how candidates get the nomination so many of tried few knew how to get it and these are the lessons learned from campaigns. That figured it out six episode six lessons six things that separate winners and losers listen to without fail campaign politics force unscripted moments on candidates how they respond can make or break their chances with voters voters wanted to see candidates who can show spontaneity something beyond the talking points. The lights are on and somebody's home. You want to be president. We're going this episode. See something say something and our campaign lesson starts with a scene from this one thousand nine hundred forty eight moving state of the Union Start Spencer Tracy in Katherine Hepburn. He was presidential candidate. Grant math us. She played his wife Mary at all. I know he's he's Kinda man matthews a good under good husband. All this sounded great during a campaign radio broadcast to the nation. The problem read read. Matthew's campaign had gone sideways with corruption. It lost his way. I see a man who is on his uncompromising fareless a man of great vision Asian and enormous courage about migrant what happened what changed. You thought you were going to stay. Well hell breaks sluices. Greg Matthews comes to his senses gentleman. This is Matt signed up but I can't take anymore this. The next part of the movie is important all the men in the room with broad corruptions of the campaign do everything they can to stop the radio broadcast. This go shopping paying for this broadcast Matthews bellows. That famous line doesn't stop there those fearless patriots. You heard supporting the on the air tonight. Now they're now they're hollering now. That are trying to shut me up. And I don't blame okay are up and Jimmy. That biker in the State of the Union movie of course is fiction but this kind of unscripted response is what we're talking about for less than the two and you'll hear echoes at the scene during a key moment in presidential campaign history. But evening I'm here tonight. Announce my intention to seek the Republican nomination. The Nation for president of the United States Ronald Reagan announced his nineteen eighty presidential campaign on television. I've seen America from the stadium. Press box as a sports sportscaster as an actor officer of my Labor Union soldier officeholder and as both Democrat and Republican second. The veteran actor could deliver his lines well but something more unscripted would soon give his campaign a boost. Here's the setup. It was early any election. A large field was running for the nomination and the front runner was in trouble. Ronald Reagan expecting to win in Iowa. Lost now he expects is to win the New Hampshire primary on February Twenty Six and sin some thought he lost an Iowa because he didn't spend much time there he now plans an extra four five days of campaigning. In New Hampshire it was nine thousand nine hundred eighty. Reagan had shockingly just lost in Iowa. He was coming into new. Oh Hampshire he had to win New Hampshire. He couldn't let George H W Bush beat them. Peggy Noonan has been inside Republican politics for a long time. She was a speechwriter trader and advisor to President Ronald Reagan today. She is a columnist for the Wall Street Journal and contributor to NBC News Iowa has given voice to one thing. His campaign in New Hampshire is said to be lacking recognition and credibility as a candidate and today the crowds by New Hampshire standards. We're good seven. Republicans running but the heat is on this one until he lost Diaa. He said no to debate. There was a stage full of secondary characters as George H W Bush had been until the week before before a secondary character everybody thought Reagan would dominate my away. He did not. He didn't show so New Hampshire. Meant everything so you WANNA be president. Pay attention to what comes next. No matter what your goals are this year you'll find the perfect audiobook at audible to motivate and inspire. Fire you whether it's getting physically fit financially fit or being a better parent leader or person. It's all on audible as a member. You'll get three titles each month one audiobook and two exclusive audible originals. You can't hear anywhere else. Plus access to exclusive guided fitness programs. I too am on the self betterment train this here. So I've been listening to Malcolm glad wells talking to strangers. It's a powerful look into our interactions with people we don't know and how we can tweak these conversations to avoid conflict it's a great listen an audible makes it easy to pick up where I left off on any device audible. Also lets you exchange any audio book you don't love and if do you need to cancel. Your Library is yours to keep forever start listening with a thirty day audible trial. Choose one audiobook and to audible originals. Absolutely free visit. Is it audible dot com slash. So you WANNA or text so you WANNA to five hundred five hundred audible dot com slash. So you WANNA or text so you want the five hundred five hundred. The head of the New Hampshire primary. The National Telegraph newspaper wanted to host the debate between Ronald Reagan and George Bush. The two front runners. I accepted the invitation for what was to be a debate but then developed that the Federal Elections Commission said that the paper could not finance this debate because that would be an illegal illegal corporation contribution to the campaign. I then volunteered to pick up the TAB from our campaign funds and pay for this debate facts put the got messy situation. It's the major ingredient for less than two chaos in New Hampshire last night. George Bush and Ronald Reagan were supposed to argue the issues on stage at the National High School Gym. Reagan invited the other Republican contenders intended to join in and boy said No. It occurred to the Reagan. Folks the Reagan campaign that Reagan on a stage only with George H each w Bush elevated George H W Bush who two months before was an obscure character whereas Reagan was the rise of conservatism. Within the party which was about to Chris. It made Bush look good if he got to sit next to Ronald Reagan but if there was six people on the stage that was is fine. Reagan was still the star and the other five guys could fight among themselves so it was strategy. If I may just brief moment I would like to go through the format that will be observed this evening. National Telegraph executive editor. John Bring tried to take control of the situation. We may have the first question for some back and forth. You asked me if you could make an ounce then came this moment of unscripted terms directly the s the technicians to turn off Reagan's microphone. Imagine telling Ronald Reagan against nationally anymore. And that's what he did. What was it about Reagan's response? That made it so memorable because that's when Reagan. Let's listen as degrading determined on my for me. You paid for this microphone all right presence of mind yes presence of mind and remembering a particular line from an old movie from the movie. We'll be state of the union. It must have just been there I I have never asked him. I never said. Did you just remember that line. But clearly it came to the four and it was something that he remembered he deployed it quite memorably but I will tell you I sort of differ with the theory the prevailing ailing theory of thirty years of magical moments. What we just heard was a magical political moment but mostly I think these moments wants are not what made the victory? These moments are how we explain the victory to ourselves after the victory happened. Ronald Reagan didn't win New Hampshire because he had a quick appropriate presence of mind Comment to shoot out to the crowd. which loved did Ronald Reagan? One for other reasons he was more in tune with New Hampshire. Republicans the live free or die state. Church was going to win in New Hampshire but after after he won when we had to explain ourselves. How he lost Iowa New Hampshire? We said it was that moment where he said I paid for this microphone. Mr Breen Peggy. As I often Fidel we disagree because I know a guy is actually a guy who disagrees with you. Yeah he said that Reagan one not just a debate. Not just the primary won the nomination. Because is that you said that Ronald Reagan. Oh he would not have didn't think that was why he won. Is I've got it verbatim. FIGGY that's what. He said that the debate he he wrote. I won the debate primary debate and I won the nomination because of that if he traced his victory maybe where where things started to turn to that moment. Fine and you always. If you're a candidate half Detroit's you're nominating victory a two New Hampshire but my goodness that is really why he won New Hampshire or the presidency however it was a lovely moment spontaneity in eighty. Ronald Reagan's lights were on and somebody was home. We're going to break down examples of lesson. Listen to a lot more with peggy and Jon Allen a senior analyst here at NBC News Simplisafe is my top choice for home security. It's it's the only system that provides local police departments with valuable information that helps them determine if an alarm Israel most alarm companies can only tell them that a motion sensor went off simplisafe. Home Security is different. It uses video evidence to give police an eyewitness account of crime that means police dispatch up to three hundred fifty percent faster than than for a normal burglar alarm with simplisafe. You'll get complete protection for your entire home. Everything from outdoor cameras and doorbells for outside to entry motion and glass break sensors for inside. Plus you'll be protected from fires water damage and carbon monoxide poisoning as well and it's only fifty cents a day with no contracts wchs you can easily set it up on your own. No tools needed or let the simply safe team do it for you visit simplisafe dot com slash. So you WANNA. You'll get free shipping shipping and a sixty day risk-free trial go now and be sure you go to simplisafe dot com slash. So you WANNA so they know our show sent you that simplisafe dot dot com slash. So you WANNA. I love the fact that politicians. That's what I really want to talk about this podcast chest. Who really do have the gift for the moment? Well it's worth. It's I think it's worth noting that coming into that moment. You had this rise by Reagan going on in new him because he'd made this big change from Iowa and he'd said look. I WanNa do what I painting was gambling. I'd like to do what I did last time. Guys let's shake some hands. Let's get on the ground. He was rising he'd really cut into what was Bushes balanced out of Iowa and so the moment was set up. What Peggy sang is right like eventually it was going to reveal itself? That Reagan was the better candidate And at the same time that moment was crystallizing for Republican voters as to why sure Donald Realizing crystallizing as a good way in fact if we could go back to make your point if Bush tried to might have worked but it wouldn't have sounded right now and also you have to remember to the a crowd amassed that day at the debate. Reagan simply held the right Democratic Small D. View. Let everybody everybody speak and Bush let himself be maneuvered into the wrong view. No it's just me and Ronnie you know what I mean. That was not going to be popular. No hampshirites it's just going to say. Let everybody talk goes on like this because there is the matic here. There's the manicure. Let's head to another example like nineteen ninety-two and it also involves George Herbert Walker Bush. The first President Bush and he's also unfortunately for him on the wrong side of this particular event is what is a town hall. Debate between or among rather George Herbert Walker Bush Bill Clinton the Challenger. And Ross Perot. The third party candidate who whatever weird reason didn't like Bush anyway and an audience member rises is up. It was sort of an oprah style town meeting member they they were sitting on stools rather comfortably. At least in the case of George Bush. This young African American woman comes up and she ask a question of the candidates. We have a question right here. Yes how has the national debt personally affected each of your lives and if it hasn't how can you honestly find a cure for the economic problems of the common people if you have no experience in. What's ailing them? Yeah well I think the national debt affects everybody a obviously it has has a lot to do with interest rates. It has. She's saying you you personal personal basis. How has it affected you as it affected you personally? I'm sure it has. I love my grandchildren. I want to think that I wanNA think that they're going to be able to afford education. And here's how the other candidate Bill Clinton respond to that. Young woman clarify expected you again. You know people who've lost their homes. Well I've been governor of a small state for twelve years I'll tell ya what's affected me. Every year Congress and the president signed laws and makes a make us do more things that gives us less money to do it with I. You see people in my state middle-class people there. John President George her well. He's a good guy but his he he couldn't loosen up and up to figure out what the young woman was talking about. She wasn't at the national debt or the deficit right now. She's talking about the economic conditions that affect the family and friends lives and immediately Bill Clinton translated needed it and said I'm going to answer the question. She was asked to the asking. I'm not going to answer talk about the national debt. I'm not going to educate her. I'm GonNa Answer I'm Bill Clinton's answer could one overpop- Republican primary could won the Democratic primary. Could've won the general election did win the general election And George H. W. Bush's answer it would have been better off Saying that affected him personally. The debt because because you raise taxes and it was gonNA cost him the election I mean. He could not out of sounded more out of touch if he tried to. I think you're right. I think what he was trying to express was. He cared If somebody had told him in a debate prep session make yes. Sure if someone asks you a question about something hurt them told them that you care. Yeah Bill Clinton could have said. I agree with the president the young. You don't know anything about the national debt. And that's not each person I individually. It's a macro economic reality. It's not a microeconomy. He could have jumped on her. He could have teamed but he said. No here's my opportunity. Oh of course preceded a look. George H W Bush listened to the question about the national debt and took it literally and tried to figure in his mind how could the national debt be impacting. Me and my family in a way that I can speak to you movingly. So he was literally Zero Bill Clinton took it imaginatively. He saw this young lady asking the question. He divined through imagination. Exactly what she meant. She meant debt. She meant hard times she meant things are difficult. Unemployment is not good. You know so. Let's talk about that. And that is is exactly what he talked about rolling out a familiar answer that he'd been using on the campaign trail but because he was imaginative and Bush was literal. He looked Clinton engaged in sympathetic and Bush looked detached and slightly daffy. And you can't see it in this supplied cast but The president stayed on his stool. This very uncomfortable pursue president similar store for example but Clinton the game aimo young guy. Yeah he pops off his stool and comes back out on. The Oprah Winfrey herself and basically connects physically. Yeah with the young woman woman. Who's asking that question? Let's talk about fizzy was TV ready. George H W Bush was World War Two generation Clinton was TV ready. He knows how to dominate emanate the stage how to walk up to the questioner how to high five him. George H W Bush was Radio Era World War Two young fly. I have to say something this cacus. I love Peggy Noonan. So I'm amend the superdome right down in Louisiana nineteen eighty one of my favorite conventions. I actually because I love New Orleans. So I'm listening to the speech about a man running for president. The nominee of the Republican party who talked about how awkward sometimes have a hard time expressing pressing my patriotism but is there a quiet man but I hear the quiet people others. Don't the ones who raise the family. You pay the taxes meet the mortgage and I hear them and I am moved and their concerns are mine and I'm getting interior. I'd be many. That speech was unbelievable. I think that's speech turned the election that time. Guess who wrote somebody very close to me you know I always. I thought he never worked so hard on any speeches. He worked on that one. It was as we worked on it. There's two things about the speech. One is what you mentioned. He tried to explain that he's not so easy with words and with a persona and with the show Biz aspects of politics which you have to be. He knew that wasn't his strong point. Second Low Chris I will tell you there is a definition of conservatism. His definition of conservatism conservatism. That is in that speech. It's very long paragraph man. That was him and that was the moment that was meaning counts. We all I think showbiz counts. It doesn't meaning trump's show Biz and politics my My father covered a lot of politicians is a reporter for UPI. A P I C covered congress covered Several presidents and George H W Bush is the only politician. I ever heard him speak of In in terms of decency and reverence with no but at the end nice to hear. Let's talk about lightness. They very sentimental all bill. Why why not I am and you are of course? Let's talk about a funny moment because I thought it was rapturous. This is my enjoying the two thousand debate between Al Gore George W Bush the son the second President Bush and Al Gore decided to get clever. GimMe so he walked up. This is the third debate. He walked up in the space as men say get out of my space right. Oh afoot from the guy and challenged him with this kind of awkward reference to some bill that he knew about that he thought Bush I wouldn't know about Dingle Norwood he might as well because it didn't mean anything to anybody watching on television and which point very spontaneously George George who didn't have a gift for this young George. It's not only what's your philosophy and what's your position on issues but can you get things done and and I believe I can just looked up and down from his shoes of his head. Like what a asshole you are. I'm sorry what is strange awkward person to walk up to me like Zip. You'RE GONNA win the argument. I think Bush put down and it's just as I contact absolute one night and one at all. Well it it mattered it. That was your remember with Bush. He once said I think in his second eight George W Bush and his second acceptance speech was very funny and he said you know people say I strut Rut which in Texas we call walking. He showed little of it that night with Gore when Gore was trying I believe in a creep really manipulative Nip Hewlett of way to creep up on Bush and Bush and Bush didn't know and suddenly he turns and like Al Gore's going as nickel most was just so creepy and Bush looks at him like a Texan like up and down like a smack. Your little face it matter I love it thank you thank you. We share that moment. I thought it was one of those moments. Maybe like the The follow speech from the nineteen forties one of those moments and political history. Where one guy shows the other guys not quite up to it? Yeah I think George Bush one of the things he had going for him and I think a lot of our presidents have had this going for them is the ability to cast themselves as kind of cool and the other person is not cool and it does tell voters something about that which is their ability to deal one on one their ability to keep their calm not choke. Here's how Gore getting into your physical space. You're not spooked by. You're just looking at him like he's he's a Weirdo. Yudo is the first time I met Ronald Reagan I was sitting in. As in the speaker's office he was giving his State of the Union and he was sitting in the Just relaxing in the green room which was the speakers ceremony office and I went in to see him and I said Mr President. Welcome to the room where we plot against you and he goes. Oh known not after six. The the speaker says we're all friends in this town after sex and I thought that's how you do it. You just do it. You just relaxed the other guy you share the moment you have some fun. It's now there's no stakes stakes. You might as well be a good guy and move on from there and be in the moment you roll with the moment you have good share. You know one of the parts of politics politics that we forget about is the daily necessity of a candidate to who against the odds maintain and project good cheer and equanimity and a little humor. If you can because you have to keep us all up you have to show that you are on an even Keel Your well-balanced Alan you get the joke you're good natured. We may give you the nuclear codes someday if you win. You better be showing hero. well-balanced the guy who didn't quite make that Standard the two thousand four likes. What Howard Dean running? Just lost the Iowa caucuses and he spoke doc to his fans out there trying to rally them to win the next one in New Hampshire and see what he did something. You know something if you you had told us one year ago the we're going to come in third in Iowa we would have given anything for that and you know something you know something not only. Are we going to New Hampshire. Tom Harkin we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico to California and Texas says there we go to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to watch the White House. Give that guy codes today John. I think everybody pictured in their mind. Dr Strangelove like the poster from that with a you know a cowboy riding on a new. You know it did have the same yeehaw you know. I think. Poem Pickens pickens part slim pickings. That's right I think part of what happened that night to Howard Dean for whom things had been going very well. Part of what happened. I think is that candidates are surrounded by aides and staffers who consider themselves to be very clever. I am certain though I have not asked that. An eight or staffer her said to Governor Dean. The young's love you and you gotTa show the Young's your fire you gotta go out there and be fire. You GotTa Show Your Energetic Jeff. Come on fire go. Do it and the candidate gets this advice before going on and then he tries to translate for himself. What does that mean and then he gets up and he goes yeehaw? You know it's one of those things that he didn't know is one of those microphones that are called a direct Mike which doesn't pick up all all the other side of the random so he's an allowed room screaming to keep up with the sound of the room it turns out his was the only voice they got on the air night. So you sounded. Crazy is a geography teacher with a substance abuse problem. And let's talk about the last one which is another tribute to George W Bush because it's about spontaneity and we all went through nine eleven and what we want is a sense of we can get through this. We wanted some hope. And here's there's a guy that went down to nine eleven. The president stays that Friday right after and he went into that horrible sight of what's left of these buildings and it's a dangerous spot is dangerous place to be Chemical Hell's going on released down there and then poisons in the air and he puts his arm around a good-looking firefighter fighter. Who's got a big hat on big firefighters hat on and he says something that was to me unforgettable on bended knee in for the people whose laugh who lost here for the war carshield work here for the family before this nation stands with the good people of New York Park City and New Jersey and Connecticut? Has We mourn the loss of our citizens and I can I can hear you can the wall and the wall while here it. In the nation the nation says loved pissing everybody this year. Thank you for your art work. Thank you making. The Nation's God bless America one of the great moments uh-huh somebody else from the back of the crowd. I can't hear you and in that split second. He said we're coming back. You could also you know in the chance of USA. I mean that was a pumped crowd. meaning that was a crowd of suffering people who were for the first time. I'm seeing the leader of the country that had been so wounded and when they broke into USA mad at just it shall strokes you up it. It was the sound of. I mean it was the first sound of New York saying we're coming back. We're coming back. It was a perfect interplay between Bush. I think it was holding holding a bullhorn and a crowd of good guys tough guys. He had his arm around the firemen. Who you mentioned sort of leaning on him as he spoke leaning against stem? There's something else that's kind of fun. I don't have this quite i. I'm not sure what words to form this thought with but I have observing observing politics for a long time and observing politicians and people operating within history. There's something important about being being a leader and not being too sensitive. You're sensitive to the moment to what is needed but you are not too sensitive to the tragedy around you. You never let it leave you on done. You never let it make you quake. You never let it overwhelm overwhelm you. It's very important not to be too sensitive. And he was not too sensitive. Yeah because this is what I think Without getting into the politics of WHO's right WHO's wrong in this by guest. But I think we all know that this coming presidential elections going to call for a lot of this talent this sub soul. Aw if you will be able to be in a moment. This is going to be a very rocky campaign through the primaries into general this is not going to be pleasant. It's GONNA call on People's fiber thank you. I thank you Chris. Many thanks to Peggy Noonan Jon Allen for joining me pay. You is once commentary writer for Dan Rather at CBS News. She went on to write speeches and advised presidents starting with Ronald Reagan today today. She writes a Saturday column for the wall. Street Journal and is a contributor to NBC News. Jon Allen is a senior political analyst here at NBC News. He's also co author the New York Times bestseller shattered inside Hillary Clinton's doomed campaign. So you WANNA be president. We're making our way through the lesson that will get you closer to the nomination next time less than three the walls have years it something. That sounds so simple but candidates still get it wrong. The country is always listening. You know I think. An overheard comment is more powerful than a scripted common. Because it's the people who are listening the voters here about them think this is when the candidate is saying what he or she actually thinks. I'm Chris Matthews the host of hardball and MSNBC CNN next time and thanks so much for listening. Hey Guys Willie geist here this week on on the Sunday. Sit Down podcast. I get together with Golden Globe winning actor. Ewan McGregor to talk about a prolific career that includes his latest role in the Superhero Film. Birds of prey get that conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.

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Episode 225: George Bush's Crack Dealer (Entry 524.JB1808)

Omnibus! With Ken Jennings and John Roderick

56:09 min | 11 months ago

Episode 225: George Bush's Crack Dealer (Entry 524.JB1808)

"Nothing awesome we are Jennings and John Rodrick. We speak to you from our present which we can only assume as your distant past the turbulent time that was the early twenty first century during the great cataclysm that will surely befall our civilization we began this monumental reference of strange obscure human knowledge. These recordings represent our attempt to compile and preserve wonders esoterica. That would otherwise be lost. So whether you're listening from an advanced civilization or just reinvented the technology to decrypt our our transmissions. This is our legacy. This is our time capsule this is the you have accessed entry five to four dot J. B. One eight zero eight certificate number number three four six zero George Bush's crack dealer. This this is crack. Cocaine sees the few days ago by Drug Enforcement Agents in a park just across the street from the White House. How did you get my phone? An address book is that. Why is that what I'm called on your phone call George Versus Crack Dealer Collie? Hey Ken again. I'm changing it into that. I think we can all agree. That crack is whack. Crack is a crack extremely whacker. Have you been following. The recent isn't love the discourse. Do you keep an eye on the finger on the pulse of the discourse I do. Have you been following. kind of the increasing unfashionable -bility of crack as has metaphor. Oh because it has overtones it has overtones. Yeah I mean it used to be the overtones where this is the worst drug. We can shook up or persons on crack back. You must be on crack or even something. That's very appealing or good is like this is like crap. It's like crack her mom. And what you're on what you're saying is it's a very good bottle of wine or it's an amazing Monday night. Football game right. It's just a way of saying something is amazing but there's been pushback the there's there's crack lash if you will yes. The Milk Bar is beloved New York City Bakery which I think is nationwide. The milk bar used to have their kind of their famous Amos. Dessert was there crack Pie. Right did not actually contain crack. So I don't too bad truth in advertising issues you would think but it was supposed to be conveyed that it was crave. -able an addictive. Of course I hate the word credible getting chills now. I'd like to ban that word. Is that a crack crave -able well you're kitty cat likes chicken. Your Kitty cat likes milk. Kitty cat likes tuna. But what my cat craves only one thing that's right smelling mulling or put against Butthole when my face when I wake up in the morning no I don't have a cat But yeah they changed the name of their crack pipe to think. Now it's called milk bar pie or something. They they were unable to come up with a new. If it was racially problem I want milk bar pile even less than crackpot by sounds like something that like Alex is drew. rubes woody right. It was the ideas by picking a drug that is famously. The achieved drug of choice of the underclass of inner city city particularly African American population in American cities during the late eighties early nineties. That you are racial ising a problem. That is universal that the drugs exist and are credible and life ruining well especially since the the the the second tier of that story is the is the conspiracy theory that crack is actually you know manufactured like a government plot a CIA manufactured substance to To to create and maintain up an underclass. That's addicted to drug. I spent a good part of yesterday reading about the dark alliance exposes in the San Jose. Mercury News which purported to show a link between Coke doc money funneled to the contras and then funneled into us neighborhoods because who cares what happens there right and Apparently the reporting is still disputed. I I mean some of the particulars were overstated But the fact that We were not particular about the origins of some of the money. We were pumping into the WH who the government. Reagan administration fell to the right people in Central American eighties. That's certainly true and we did not particularly care about the victims of drugs. who were not whites it or or voters right? That's certainly true as well. So there's some there's some at least some foundation of truth to the idea that the crocodile epidemic did not have to happen but whether or not crack itself was a product of the market for of topsy lab visit. The second story is right. But we've seen this too. I mean it wasn't that long ago that Soup Nazi was a thing saying that we all said all the time I mean it was it was a trope from a or I'm sorry. It was a bit from Seinfeld from Seinfeld. Show because Nazis. What's he's had been neutered as as an actual cultural force or threat? So here was this guy doesn't want you to eat. Eat the soup wrong. So he's a soup Nazi and then then you've got over here. The Tennis Shoe Nazi you've got Nazi Nazi Nazi set on TV. That I was a grammar not and I was asked to do it again and say that I was grammar. COP GRAMMAR COP. Oh is that right. and was that because of the sensibilities of of daytime television or had the had the trend already turned. was there already criticism of ten years ago. But I think there was some idea that we stay away from I mean the entertainment industry has a maybe a keener ear for that kind of thing you to you know non sinister but definitely present Jewish representation. So I feel like there's usually somebody there who's like what if we don't have Nazis when we did our episode on Grammar. Did we use the term grammar nuts. I don't remember number without. I don't think we would anymore but nowadays your grammar probably isn't Nazi. She's been on our facebook page and they turned gramps and grammar into into too literal Nazis. I if there was a bill that took the sound of the bell out of the universe for a brief second created like a like a dark silence. I would ring doing it now. I Don I just want you to know you ended the masquerade episode with a Pun. No that's very last thing ringing in the audiences ears one week ago today today ugly but you know prior to this for about we're living in a period where for twenty or thirty years. It was not uncommon to use phrases like a crack pipe crack baby crack whore. Kind of Semi Comic Edgy Comic. signifier for what it was really a terrible blight among some of the most vulnerable Americans and I think the the I mean the awfulness of the blight was what made the the comedy dark right. I mean this was also during a period when you when I'm not you or me but but the culture at large used AIDS in a similar way as a kind of the ultimate transgressive punchline right the and and kind of the worst thing anyone could think about in the same way that that people will say even still like though US dead baby jokes as as a way of of scandalizing people but let where where the scandal wash off real fast. Our our our responses in these affairs are always very instinctive we instinctively say. No that feels okay are no that doesn't and then we reverse engineer reasons. Why or why not but Today those kind of references are on fashionable because they share the same problem by using crack or AIDS if you're Middle class white person using crack or AIDS as a punchline. You're not part of the population affected by it. You're essentially saying here's the problem that other people have and that makes it a little funnier. I'm less scared of age than my gay friends. I'm less worried about crack than my friends. Who came up from the ghetto? I had the ability ability to laugh at this stuff that maybe others do. Not but it's also it's also a time where I mean really amy middle-class person regardless of their race race color creed should not be using crack a punchline because it's exactly it although it is racialist it's also very much a class distinction attention. Sure and you can see that today where. There is a kind of a similar drug crisis affecting poor Americans. But this time it's largely ex urban and rural Weitz and the OPIOID epidemic is being treated you can tell by its name as an epidemic as a as it heartbreaking problem of addiction and not. It's not bound up with all. The signifier is that we remember from the crack air which was crime blaring music. There is a lot of there is a lot of crime association and I think I think the one thing that we forget is that the money liberal classes the money liberal class of the coastal cities really cares very very little for poor white Americans either but the people putting putting up the billboards and doing the ad campaigns. You're exactly right it's not It's so amazing to be Anoxia today right. But they're you know I've lived through both eras and the the differences are striking. Yeah and math. Taking a kind of bridge drug You know this is your face on Meth type thing Their meth also also is more a white urban drug yum and and it was talked about and thought about again in using different code and loaded language the Renault meth horse. You know the although that absolutely were but that was not a that phrase did not become a signifier of a certain kind of town. You didn't certain parts of town you didn't drive or meth babies or whatever and I think we've talked. I can't remember Tintri. This was I remember. We were talking about how today's generation and hopefully future generations would be surprised at the way the visceral liberal way in which drugs were demonized for that period of our history. Not they're actually great pernicious in so many ways but this kind of very personal angry reaction to this idea. We had of dealers outside of schools. There was really sense that this was a real threat to the republic. Lick a threat to the republic because it got so often tied to Reform of the criminal justice system it got tied into the social welfare net for political reasons right of people that were opposed to extending the social welfare system. MM or people that were opposed to criminal justice reform sentencing draconian sentencing laws and so forth could always point to the drug the scourge of drugs as As a kind of the unintended consequence of leniency. If you you know if you didn't crack down on and that's a different word sense of the word crack If you if you lightened up up for even a moment then these trench coated demons would come out of the shadows and sell heroin tear to your your tennis. Playing swing kids almost Almost ignored was the fact that demand is what powers this market. Not Not a single temperature dressed as a pimp outside in elementary school. You know the the problem is is baked into the fact that people want drugs not the fact. That drugs aren't aren't great but somebody's tricking you into taking them. We we really had a lot of lot of very visceral anger towards the trickster figures that we're going to well because because I think during this same era the question of why you would want drugs why it wasn't sufficient why the love of your the Troth served and the church and the and the the elks the elks club at night and the income of good solid job wasn't enough to To keep you on the straight path and the suggestion was that the drug pusher could connect you to these drugs that were irresistible and would would crumble your. I guess the question is why is your moral fabric so yes us so vulnerable Khurram should know that you should not get addicted to drugs. I just thought have you thought of simply not being addicted to drugs right. Well if you if you were to ask Jesus Jesus Jesus would say don't get addicted to drugs or if you dare dare ladies who came to your classroom. They would tell you the same thing they were busy towing knowing crushed cars into your gymnasium dare ladies is that right. He had crushed. This was the dangers of I was I was doing. I think a senior in high school when dare came to Alaska and we had a big assembly where everybody in. The school came. Crowded down to the gym was forced to come to the gym and watch this presentation and at that point in my high school career I was the kid I was the student that ran all the pep assemblies. Of course right. I wasn't on the football team. I was the kid Bowtie. That was like all right. Everyone welcome to the gymnasium for the big show. I get a Mike. Our I emceed. The big dare reveal. Reveal in Anchorage and they had a crashed car that some kid died in a drunk driving accident and they wield this car in and and we all we all had to go off at at. Yeah I mean like many like many changes in technology did drive. This applied the drugs. Were getting cheaper and and stronger and we were no longer like the INCAS chewed coca leaves for thousands of years and they didn't invent the wheel that they did just fine. That's a great empire empire mighty highways. You've ever seen one of those bridges fantastic. Do you think you could have done one of those. I couldn't do it now. Sober couldn't I couldn't do it if I had all the crack in the world. It's this so these stickers should say sober is sexy but does not produce great vicario bridges but but This was becoming a more immediate problem because people poor people who would have been priced out of drugs no longer were do amazing new freebasing technologies and. The concern was bipartisan. Addison which is really interesting. You talked about draconian sentencing laws You know one of the most famous ones that is really not held up with the nineteen eighty six fix it has some anti-drug something act It was actually the brainchild of tip. O'Neill started out in a democratic Senate and of course they knew Reagan would sign. Sign it but this was not nancy. Reagan and Mr T. Making America do this. This was this was worried. Democrats at passed the Senate and the House almost unanimously these new you mandatory minimums for drug offenses and new baked in disparities in which drugs in which each quantities would lead to which punishments Clinton Clinton famously signed a similar sort of criminal justice. Bill One of the few Democrats who did not sign off on this bill. It was like like this stuff. This stuff's draconian July and stuff. Mike lowry future Washington Governor Mike lowry then. I kinda junior Congressman than of some kind. But everybody else sign off because you know of course drugs are self evidently awful and nobody stopped to say well wait a second. There is a hundred to one disparity in this bill between powder cocaine and crack cocaine and that's literally true. Yeah for this. You know the mandatory minimums would kick in for five hundred grams of white cocaine versus just five grams of crack. And if you ask people to defend this nobody would ever say well. It's because they're black right but if you look at the list of five reasons many any of them boil down to either because they're poor because they're black they would say well there's a so north violence associated with this kind on the Wall Street kind right or they would say. Well this is much it's cheaper and therefore you know all the reasons were one step away from because airport inter-city people. Well it's it's interesting that You know crack kiss a speedy drug and heroin is a Downer and do it doesn't mean you spy speedy you don't take effect. Will you mean it perks. You up and makes you well. It also takes effect quickly but it is a four. So you fork drug or it's a It's an and his genitals stimulant. That's the word I'm looking for. We call them energetic. and MM and stimulants are in some ways a lot more threatening a because the because the person on the drug appears agitated it and if they're writing and SNL sketches. You're okay with that madcap approach. But if they're walking down stop with with with the urine so stuff in the corners of their mouths yeah. It's a lot more whereas you know a junkie a someone that's on heroin. A posture of real passivity. They're in a doorway away. Yeah you're free to ignore them the way the way we often treat although both drugs inspire a lot of petty crime street crime. Because there's nothing more energized is the heroine addict that doesn't have Herald. You know what Turkey. Yeah exactly. You know it's not like everything's great. You're on heroin we should. We should emphasize the future. This is not an endorsement. The thing that spurred tip O'Neill to try to ram through these new crazy drug sentences was interesting I did not remember this And this is a sign of how how privileged effects drug policy it was the nineteen eighty-six overdose of Len bias the number two pick in the NBA draft bias. He he died on the the court did me. No that was hank gathers but this was the guy who had who died right after he had gotten drafted. And it's part of the celebration that's right it ain't went out and got included crack. And he never you know this Celtics used number two draft pick on this guy and so the story is partly tragic this young man and partly it's White Celtics fans being like no number two so white. America is suddenly furious about the strike because it affected there there sportscenter right the at the same time. I think there was an NFL player defensive rookie of the year who also had a had a problem with the Rock and so between lean these two guys suddenly it's grabbing headlines in a way that we are free to ignore before when it was just a not very nice part of town so I became a plot point in a lot of primetime television cop shows it was the subject of quite a few big films. uh-huh of the day. I wonder if it was successful. It's scaring kids off drugs. 'cause joint is not scary but you know crack crack kind of scary the fact that we other it and the people who use I wonder if that was effective at all in at least in middle class elementary schools. Well I think crack and the `associated did Money that crack dealing generated and the extra police. The police war that went along with the crack. Era The jail the prison overcrowding all of that All of that fed the rise of gangster rap as a you know that that is the life that is depicted in The the life of the of the high rolling drug dealer so you're not squeamish about crackers and now it seems Kinda glamorous and masculine well and it's and and the war the inner city war against it's the oppressive. LAPD that became a kind of a new glamorous wild west to the to the White Youth of the ninety s we made it seem accidentally made. It seem fun. By by. Trying to dramatize it and make it seem like this terrible really. NWEA came along on and and flipped the worry. The didn't do the created easy you and all of a sudden it became. It was a new wild west so nobody bat in this climate nobody bat an eyelash on September fifth nineteen eighty nine when George Bush the first President Bush George Herbert Walker Bush Bush forty one Having taken office from his predecessor president. Reagan just What ten nine ten months before so addressed America on Primetime TV on all three networks plus Fox maybe who knows her Fox in nineteen ninety nine there was it is yeah yeah maybe Fox still married with children but on the other three networks? Plus on the macneil Lehrer Report George W Bush is sitting behind the Oval Office desk and no one bats an eyelash when he says all of us agree. All of us agree that the greatest domestic threat facing our nation today is drugs. Wow all of us can you can you. Can you imagine the Polish and said that today. The obviously America's most existential existence threat is crack. It would it would seem crazy not because we we have a worst drug epidemic never but just the Myopia of thinking thinking. Nothing is more serious now than the drugs are coming for our children especially since there still was a Soviet Union at that point in time I guess he does say the greatest domestic throw throw. I see okay. So let's get straight so he's not saying it's worse than the Bolsheviks right but he is saying it's worse than any number of other social ill government corruption worse than capitalism pollution. It's worse than deregulation of the bank's not going to be on his shortlist but there were a lot aids and a ton of other things were really worrying. America nine hundred eighty nine and it just goes unquestioned that worse than any of them is king crack and then he reaches down and you know with his really not ready in this. He holds up a little bag. This is crack cocaine seized a few days ago by DEA agents in Park just across the street from the white how was it. Also a weapon of mass destruction actually baggy the era of visual aids in Republican politics politics. It's always a little bag full of white powder today. It's bipartisan and it's a state of the Union thing where you're not Obama says go ahead and stand up and you know some little league. Coach stands up and now this guy. He lost his home to whatever rising sea levels. And now this lady who lost her savings to the savings and loan really is the Ellen and Oprah of the state the Union but this is maybe the first time I had ever seen. I remember this speech. He he had cracked that was supposed to shock. US was that it had been bought in. Lafayette Offense Park right in front of the White House is it's not just something we can we can say is in the bad part of town anymore. Either your kids. You're kidding in the White House as you do. And so. This made quite made quite an impression on America. The funny thing about a visual aid is it's just catnip to the press people will want to follow up on the concrete example. It's a narrative bought that where what how did George Bush get crack. Should he have that. Maybe maybe George Junior was like behind behind the camera and kind of sniff rubbing his nose a little and he's like what what is that and so the Washington Post started to investigate the strange story of where this crack from George Bush is produced from a secret drawer of the resolute desk. Apparently thank goodness for the Washington Post. We knew it had not been in there since John Tyler or whatever where comforted so within a week or two later. The post prince an expose of George Bush's crack in fact almost just everything about that statement had been alighted not been seized by agents. It had been purchased for two thousand four hundred twenty four hundred dollars that not much crack would be the size of a hey bail. I don't understand that amount. Maybe is that the could that be the total cost of the operation or maybe they did by a huge amount and he just had a small sample for America. I guess so. The whole idea that crack is this really affordable inner city. Yeah doesn't doesn't come for four hundred dollars. You could really have your choice choice of a lot of good drugs eighty nine. That's right you could get some good crack. You could get real coke. It would not be a little evidence baggie of of rock but Not only that. It had not been seized across the street from the White House. White House speechwriters really badly want this to be the case. They wanted that visceral idea that just feet from where the president of all people addressing US people are buying and selling crack all the time they send Josh Lyman over there with a twenty dollar bill. Somebody can scrounge up. They sent some of the spies that are normally sitting around the the reflecting pool passing notes to each other and doing dead drops and feeding the feed the pigeons. It actually did turn out to turn into a Justice Department operation they Somebody from the Attorney General's office was tasked to ask the DA. Do you have anything going on around the White House and discuss forwarded to the park police. It's the district of Columbia. So there's some federal connection to the park police and they were told no. Are you kidding like across the street from the White House. There's so many cops so much law enforcement presence. There's so much foot traffic carr's tourist swamp that picture of the Portico at twenty four hours a day at the White House. This is the worst place in America to sell crack are you are you on crack. But you can't say that you take your quoting them then yes they back then it was okay to say. Are you on crack. Today you couldn't even say are you crazy because that's can't do that either. I don't even know. Are you saying something that I find ridiculous. That's what we say. In our era really rolls off the it really does and a And so de agents were dispatched to find crack to could plausibly. Be said to come from his nearly as you can get right so on August thirty thirty first August thirty first less than a week before the speech and FBI agent named or D.. Agent named Sam Gay is tasked with getting the president and some crack. Probably the first person in America but not the last in charge of supplying the president crack and as later came out at trial in the years to come. What ensued was a comedy of errors where Sami later had to testify about this? The I drug dealer who found did not show. Oh show I mean the thing about drug dealers lead an appointment. Today are not reliable. He had he had to. He had to make some phone calls because nobody it was conveniently selling drugs. Despite the premise of the speech. Let me let me let me give you a little color commentary. That's what I that's what I love. What what what was in your doctor pepper? That just got her mouth a pop top of the POPs up on my Dr Pepper fell into my doctor pepper. How interesting this is my nutcracker? 'cause you can't say that anymore but in one thousand nine hundred ninety I lived in Washington. DC and where did you buy crack back in one thousand nine hundred ninety. I smoked crack like January to December or occasionally or or occasionally as part of my overall drug addiction process is an area. Ah Yeah because it was cheap and available it was cheap and available and I was already a pretty pretty established. Abolition drug addict and I was able to buy crack in Washington. DC not very so far from my house which was not very far from the White House. Oh interesting how far were you from were you in northwest DC. So so. I I lived in a couple of different places but But my main sort of crack stomping grounds. Let's say you you can get addresses is now I mean time has passed it was in it was in northwest DC. I lived sort of sort of in the region between Dupont circle and logan circle sort of up there in the diplomatic nice part of town. Well now time it was not I mean I was. I was a little bit further other. Let's let's say let's say I was a little bit further north than that. I was at and you know I was at fourteenth in some letter t But they you buy crack right across the street from my house at a park and the park. I one time I went to I. I went to a dealer who was standing out on the street and I said I had some friends coming to town and I needed some pot and he said I don't have any pot but I do have crack in search and I said I don't need crack. I I need pot and he said okay. Give me the money and I'M GONNA go up in this building and I'll be right back with your pot not not unusual to hand over the money first and then have somebody am. I said. I'm not some some new job. I'm not some guy just just off the farm here. I'm not going to give you my money in heavy. Go in and find me some pot and he said why. Don't you hold this crack. Give me the money and I'll come back with the pot and I says playing seven dimensional chess with you and I was like that seems fair. I'll hold hold onto the crack while you get the pot. And then he never came back so it was a real crackpot scheme you fell for it. I'm GonNa get I did. I fell for it and I ended up. I ended up not able to buy the The simple normal desirable bannock organic gateway drug of marijuana. And did I got duped into buying crack. Was that your first experience with crack. What happened with the crack was we took it home or I? I brought it home and all all we had was a pot pipe and it was because we were hippies. It was a wood pipe. It was made out of Mahogany or something. Something some would that was meant only to be heated up. A little crack types are always metal. Writer Glass Glass Glass or metal. I mean both the glass on the mental heat up really hot anyway so we had this would pot pipe and we were like well. I guess we'd better smoke crack and this was my first. I guess we'd better smoke is never the good a good way to start after. I guess we'd better like trying smoke this crack because we couldn't find any pot and so we We smoked the crack and I then subsequently spent several years where crack was part of my drug diet but at this point in time you know it has a very surprising effect. It's very immediate. And it's Euphoria is maybe understatement. You really he truly feel like you've done something great. The the the feeling that courses through your body is one of accomplishment that feeling you've ever had is it a more intense version of feelings accomplishment. You'd had before it is what it feels like. Is that you just one. He just won the marathon. You just you just achieved the greatness S. that you always knew was possible so so when people kind of wonder what the what what makes crack or cocaine so appealing. It isn't isn't that you get a It's not that you suddenly are hallucinating. Like glowing orbs or something it it affects your actual your normal emotion. Oh shuts interesting and it just elevates them so that you have and that's why it's so addictive because when you come down from it you it's a feeling of realization sation that not only did you not succeed with opposite the you've made a terrible. You're a loser right. And you want that feeling. You want that feeling feeling of accomplishment back. How does the high compared to powder cocaine much more intense much more immediate much more and much briefer but the but the but to do cocaine is to feel like you've really done a good job today in your parents would be proud and too because you can afford Ford cocaine have nothing else to freebase? Cocaine is to feel like you just WanNa marathon and to smoke crack is to feel like you that you're you're the first man on the moon is I mean. That's a heartbreaking picture to me of like what this scourge would be not a personal level to you really poor marginalized people who have rarely had the opportunity of that sense of accomplishment. It is what is heartbreaking about it because the because the addiction addiction is to is to a feeling that is that that hopefully we would all at some point in our lives feel as a result of actual actual accomplished. We want that for them. It is the feeling of of your wedding. Day is the feeling of your day. You graduate but but intensified and your mind can connect it to two things that feel like reality so you don't when when you when you were in the throes of the high you don't the throws when you're in that moment you don't feel like it's not real yeah. It doesn't feel artificial in any well. It feels like finally damn right. I'm this smart. I'm this funny. I'm this good finally I I I feel as you know. I feel that good that I know is in me. I feel that can be very helpful for people for whom a drug high is often portrayed as some kind of Sibur riddick you know it's purely Lizard Brain pleasure that you know the week and only the weak and weak minded whatever crave you know because the fact that there's a It feels in the brain like there's an emotional and and and Intellectual underpinning for it. Yeah that makes I think it makes it much more understandable. It's why it's why rich college kids and stockbrokers who are on cocaine are so unbearable because they already feel that way about themselves and the cocaine just makes them they're the last people in the world. They're they're wasting that stuff. It just gives them the additional sense that they were right all along home. Which is which is what makes us rich? Don't have a shortage of that anyway but you have had a very hard time going down to Lafayette Park. And I'm sure you never did it. Wasn't that far and you could go down but I couldn't. I would not have tried to buy a crack there. Because as you're saying it's like it's basically like a police. I find the most but the place with the most out of town tourists and the most law enforcement and see if anybody will sell me anything I saw. I saw three people get shot. Ah Across the street from my apartment during this time and I ran across the street to the police that came out of nowhere. I mean there are cops everywhere right away. I came across the street because I was standing there and said I saw the whole thing and the cops ignored me and I kept. I kept walking up to different COPS. I was standing right there. I saw the whole thing and one of them finally turned to me and said you need to get Outta here. Do you realize that you're standing in the middle of a park. Were there are now four hundred people. And you're saying I saw the whole thing the one white guy in this whole park and you saw the whole thing. What did you see three black guys? Go home you don't WanNa be in the middle of whatever the Drug Ridge was started. That's right and I looked around and I was like. Oh what what. What did I think I was going to solve this crime time I was like the mcgruff? The crime the great the Great Middle Class A kid that was the second one brown grew up and he is going to solve your cracking. Yeah I slunk away for sure couples wrong so SAM. Gay has a much harder time than you apparently did buy crack. Maybe he should have. He should've talked to you well. He was a freaking King. DEA agents. That was the problem and he was making phone calls. Either drug felonies for drugs. This guy should know. It's a comedy of errors. The agent that they put the microphone on the Mike Malfunctioned. They had a cameraman trying to videotape the deal and then a homeless person assaulted the cameraman so they never got any way all they wanted. What did they didn't? They didn't want to be a big bust did they. Didn't they just want a bag of drugs yet. But I think they wanted the ability to prosecute the guy later so they wanted to make sure everything was ironclad tired clad core of all of all the drug operations that are doing. This is the only one. That's been specifically commissioned by the White House because George Bush needs crack so after the first guy is a no show on the following day September. First they end up calling. I don't know how this guy just some guy from Anacostia Kostia they. Apparently they went further than you would have had to. They call Keith Jackson. Nineteen year old high school senior. Who apparently they've we've been told by a friend of a friend of a friend can get them some crack but you have to sit and watch faces of death with? I don't think I don't know what the analogy is to that in the nine. It's Yo MTV raps or something and so they call this guy and they say hey we for for the story to be true. They need to go down in Lafayette Park. So like hey can you come to that park across the street from the White House and then sell us some crack giving him immunity entity or no. This is a sting operation. Oh Poor Kevin it Keith. And it really. It really is a sad story. I mean I'm not GonNa say that Keith was just some innocent highschool see but at this point yes no record right I mean he got a little crack trade crack. But he's he's a guy without much opportunity otherwise clunker and he's not the brightest sharpest knife in the drawer like when they tell him where they wanted to meet he says where the the White House right hundred Pennsylvania and they give him the address which you know again many American school children no and he says oh where Reagan lives uh-huh. He knew that yes he was. He was nine months out of date but he he had the idea of the president of somewhere so dutifully shows up and sells twenty four four hundred dollars worth of crack somehow to afraid. That's not. Maybe he took them for a ride. There's just no way even the do you think that could be the total cost of the operation. Maybe is that what the tax payer go build all the all the gas and all the SUV's didn't work and the camera and they got beat up by the homeless guy. I think what happened is they. They gave him twenty dollars and then unlike three agents split the other twenty thousand three hundred eighty dollars so this is this is what happens then George. Bush claims this stuff that got seized by the White House. They did not arrest. Keith Jackson Ahmet Day but weeks later after the post and the Times are printing stories about it irresistible irresistible so it shows up on Doonesbury. It's an SNL sketches and George Bush gives the press conference where people are pressing on this. Why did you say the drugs had been seized? And he's getting all these questions about the cover up of the crack by and he's just mystified. Doesn't he know hi. This is America's greatest threat. I don't understand I mean. Has Somebody here got some advocates for this drug guy. He calls him the Drug Gandara Guy. He's just so outrage. That people would be asking him questions. That seem to be sympathetic to the drug guy because again. This is America's greatest villain the guy slinging crack across the street from the White House. Heath Keith Keith. If you call him and tell him to Jackson was never arrested he was. He was never charged. They let him go. But after this becomes this after the Bush gives press conference in this clearly is not going away then may address the guy because I think because it's become clear. This is controversial in some point. Somebody's is GonNa ask you know I'm looking at the drug arrest the Guy I'm looking at this baggy of the of the crack that Bush has and that's that's quite a considerable quantity of crack. I'm not a I'm not a judge. I can't just look at a bag of crack. Say That's worth twenty worth or not worth twenty five hundred dollars dollars. This isn't crack antiques. Roadshow but but you know three ounces of crack I mean that's eight hundred dollars have been crazy. It seems high that does seem high. I mean but crack you a bag of crack rock. That cost ten dollars just little little rock's not big chunks. That looks those are the size of super bowls. But I still don't think that I don't think of crack five hundred dollars honestly. I don't know what that is but I didn't know that I was going to be telling the story to someone with so much in person. Knowledge of the DC crack trade is every night you didn't have. I surprised you the fact that you were living blocks away. I had no idea. I assumed you were out west at the time blocks away and doing drugs I had guest only half of that. I was working waiting for Ralph Nader. Actually did he mind that you were smoking crack. He did he was. He's a straight Arrow. He's a straight shooter was did he put his hand on your shoulder and say John mccracken crack. It's unsafe at any speed. My experience of Mr Nature is that he doesn't touch panel very much. Were you putting this feedback in unsafe. It as AH so anyway as a result of political ads covering Keith Jackson then gets prosecuted. No this is the part of the story that really makes me man. This will make you mad. Because this is the federal government ensnaring one guy for writing purpose scapegoating a teen and I guess apparently legally they have broad latitude to say. Hey come sell us crack and if you do you're still on the hook like entrapment. Laws do not cover that right but but it makes the case very unusual and sympathetic. Apparently because there are two hung juries the first time the Justice Department tries to put this guy away but they take a third crack at it and and in September. One Thousand Nine hundred ninety. He isn't Keith. Jackson is in fact found guilty and breaks down into tears for having sold crack to president. George H W Bush people right and as a result of these new draconian mandatory minimums that we've been talking about judge Stanley Sporkin Birkin. A Reagan appointee is forced. Of course it's forced to send him to jail Democrat. Whatever whatever appoint judge sport? That doesn't that seem like the kind of technocratic guy that That Obama might nominate. Maybe it's not. Yeah I'm not doesn't it. Sounds sounds maybe eastern European. I'm not saying Jewish educated anyway. The Federalist Society spins maybe maybe so they all have Catholic names sporkin anyway. Judge Sporkin is forced to. He tells the I feel terrible about this because this is totally disproportionate is proportionate to the actual offence selling visual aid to the president but these are mandatory minutes. He has no choice. I have to send you away. For Ten years and Sporkin is very sympathetic because he sees the political machinations that have led to this third retrial. He says Bush us you in the sense of making a big drug speech. This is like his his sentencing deliver delivery but he's a decent man a man of great compassion. Maybe he can find a way to reduce at least some of that sends Oh a little bit of public shaming of the pres- This guy's Reagan appointees like what Bush nicest guy I think he's got no the dirty here he'll hook you up Bush's already out there way out ahead saying That That this poor Keith is the is the enemy of mankind. Guess of all of all good good hearted. American children being suckered away from the ice cream truck by the siren song of Keith Jackson and his his giant super for ball sized rocks of crack. And in point of fact this turned out to be exactly as unlikely as it sounds. President Bush did not see fit to to construct the Justice Department to commute any portion sheets sentence. He wasn't you keep the school. He keeps cool like I know he sold crack but it was to me right right World War Two as pilot hero. George Herbert Walker Bush. Yale graduate trickle down economics some of these skull and bones guys to see what what they can do. Yeah if you can't get crack from skull and bones. Can you get it from the White House. Would it would would interfere to let it crack. Republicans would interfere in one thousand nine hundred to let let a crack dealer out early just because it made them look bad right. That's not going to happen. It was science fiction and in fact George Bushes. Shes only crack dealer that we know of George H W Bush ended up serving eight years of his sentence from from age. Nineteen to eight twenty seven. Yeah it was most of his twenties. I guess and I don't know the there's I was unable to find any record of what happened to him. Now the outcomes outcomes for that kind of for that Kinda guy we're not great then and even worse after the prison industrial complex sentences into a ten year sentence for a single drug deal for first defense but that was kind of the unseen story behind a visual aid in the Oval Office us and to imagine that during this whole period his son and namesake. I'm not gonNA say crack but was like paddock. Okay would not surprise loaded to the Gills on whatever you could get it really. Really a quadruple infuriates. There are two kinds of drugs. You know. There's the drug that expensive drugs Nice people get. It's like anything else right. And there's the not so nice drugs the poor people get and it's clear which one we're going to spend our political capital on and that concludes George Bush's crack dealer entry five to four dot J. B. One eight zero eight two ticket number three four six to zero in the future earnings don't crack it's wack. I speak from experience. Drugs are bad and they ended up doing disservice. You had a narrow escape I was. I was one of the fortunates who found path to sobriety. Let me encourage you. If you are suffering from dependence on drugs and alcohol to believe there is a way that you can put that insanity behind you and one day perhaps have a podcast with Ken. Jennings where you sit in the basement open weird letters from nerds around the world. Even straight edge KEN JENNINGS STRAIGHT EDGE. Can Straight Edge Ken Jennings that has never had a beer. Sits across the street sits across the table from price until you crack story former crackhead and and And overall bad drug consumer his pal John Roderick so but it is nice to see success stories. You know it must feel like a kind of slavery or compulsion Russian and and it's not easy but there is hope you can in most cases recover from from drug addiction if you have the humility and if you are prepared to do the work it's it's not it's never too late and and there are lots of people out there that want to help so in my case let me just suggest that you find a twelve step program in your neighborhood. There is certainly one within a fifteen eighteen minute journey from wherever you are listening to this program and in fact even long long in the future when when the earth is just a smoking ruin their will almost certainly be a twelve step meeting. You can probably find a meeting five hundred feet from the White House over over across the street at the Ford Hotel. There's got to be a a meeting in the afternoons. Also you can contact me directly at at John Roderick on all social media media if you WanNa talk about your process. Because I'm always here to help. It's a lovely thing you do. It's a service provided to many people. I do try to make myself available available to people that are struggling with drugs and alcohol not Not because it is lovely but because it is part of the gratitude that you need to maintain when you are able to help you with your sobriety and absolutely does because you do not achieve. Sobriety is not a thing that you it's not a thing that you win and then keep around it you really do have to maintain it and part of maintaining that is to be ever mindful because the the appeal of drugs and alcohol dissipates. But it never don't. It's it's not a it's not a situation where you master it you always have to think about and it's important because people helped me right. You have to do to do that. Work Doc. In helping the next person that comes along where we should thank the people who helped you as well. We should not all of them made it. That's life is hard people. We don't usually say life is our people died in the middle of the email will address part of the outer. Oh that's right well you should email us at at the time at g mail DOT COM. And you should check us out on social media and you should go to our facebook page where the future earnings will after this episode. Probably all be sharing their stories of stories of experiences with drugs and alcohol both both positive and negative probably. There are an awful lot of listeners. That are that are recovering from drugs and alcohol because it's just in the nature of any group of people and it's nice to talk about remove some of the stigma. It's important to talk about. Yeah it's it's never nice. You know what I mean. It's not like hey let's sit down and share the chair. That's reminiscent time in your life. When you were really struggling the most you can mail us things? If you have extra things at pillbox five five seven four four shoreline Washington Ninety eight one five five. I think you and I are going to fight over this. Somebody sent us a whip inflation now. That's mine are you kidding me that we mentioned this show Fido administration come up Alpin you to the floor. I have the right now. Possession is nine tenths of the of the win button. It's right here if you enjoy the show and support it. We accept your generous financial contributions at Patriotair Dot com slash slash omnibus project. The GO-TO are read it. Fan Group where people have different things to say probably never been almost certainly they always tend to be a little bit a little bit more prepared to have direct talk. We'll go there and download that's what rights for you don't like in down vote them to oblivion and again seek help if you need it high fives all around and a is the crack of recovery program. No you can't be able to say that now you have to say it's the cream of the crop or something. It's not though it's not anybody's buddies crack. Nobody wants to go to. Hey just the end up having to listeners from our vantage point here in your distant past we have no idea how long our civilization survived arrived. We survived all the nineteen thousand nine saying about crack. But it's like Russian Roulette. What's next we the next bullet in the chamber? What's the net? What is what is the backgammon backgammon of drugs? That will be next coming back. It's going to be squeak. People are GONNA get addicted to squeak and fortunately I have kind of a lock on the squeak week district distribution networks in the North West. I'm so high on plank and tipped and Shrek right now It could be. You know who knows is what who knows. What has addictive hallucinogenic properties to future listeners? If they're if they're electric if they're not organic at all maybe nothing maybe they're robots who are sad that they cannot feel the highest highs and the lowest lows of all they have to do is just You know they just instead of to twenty they just have to run to twenty one. Whatever take addicted to Mr Mom we hope and pray the catastrophe that we hear the most may never come but if the worst comes through this very recording maybe our final but providence allows? We hoped for another entry in the omnibus.

White House Times crack cocaine George W Bush George Bush America Reagan Bush George Herbert Walker Bus us President Keith Jackson Cocaine heroin Ken Jennings Washington Football facebook cocaine Obama
Attorney General William Barr's Unwavering Support Of Trump, Explained

Fresh Air

48:00 min | 11 months ago

Attorney General William Barr's Unwavering Support Of Trump, Explained

"From whyy in Philadelphia. This is fresh air. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Today a look at president trump's controversial attorney general. William Bar veteran journalist. David Road says bar is trump's most feared criticized and effective cabinet member in a piece in the New Yorker Road explores bars long held conservative Riveta values and is longstanding commitment to expanding presidential power a principal now being tested as the impeachment trial unfolds in the Senate yet again. We're having this great debate. About how much power should the president have. How much power should congress have to investigate? The president's conduct and bar isn't directly involved in the trial but his is broad support. His philosophical support for a stronger presidency is clearly helping trump also TV critic. David Bean Cooley reviews star. Trek Picard. Starring Sir Patrick Stewart it premieres tonight on CBS. All access support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer family foundation supporting. WHYY's wise fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation. President trump fired his first attorney. General Jeff sessions after complaining. Planning sessions had failed to protect him from a special council investigation in his replacement current attorney. General William Bar. Trump has a fierce advocate an article for the New Yorker magazine. Our guest veteran journalist. David Road says bar has acted as trump's political sword and shield presenting sanitized. Summary of special counsel Robert Muller's findings to the public and launching his own investigation into the FBI's probe of the trump campaign's possible ties to Russia. And the the intelligence community assessment that Russia intervened and the two thousand sixteen election in his Article Road Explores the roots of bars conservative values and his longstanding longstanding commitment to expanding the powers of the Presidency David wrote is a longtime investigative journalist. He's now executive editor for news at New Yorker worker DOT com. He's written a book in deep the FBI the CIA and the truth about America's deep state which will be published in April his his article about William Bar Appears in the January twentieth edition of the magazine and is available on New Yorker Dot Com. Well David Road welcome back to fresh air. You say in this piece. That William Bar is the most feared criticized at effective member of trump's cabinet. But it's clear from your piece that his fervent advocacy on a lot of these issues isn't new that he has firm convictions about law and politics that date back decades you write about an address he gave at Notre Dame last fall which you say was a case for ideological warfare What was his message his message as you know there are various ones but the key one was that he felt that organized religion in the United States was under assault? And I think you know there are many Americans Who are our religious that feel this way he talked about sort of the? There's a combination of the Hollywood elite In the mass media Sort of attacking jacking people. That are of faith I you know many Americans would disagree with that and say that that point was exaggerated. But it's a it was a sort of a of a A theme Trumpian theme of kind of being under siege That conservatives are under siege and under assault and a theme of also so of Grievance so it was more a decorous than you know frankly. President trump speaks but he was sort of hitting the same The same points and pushing the same buttons. It's clear that bars convictions. Our long-held they go way back tell us a bit about his family life. So bar grew up on the upper west side of Manhattan Hatton. Both of his parents taught at Columbia different points in their career His mom was also an editor at redbook magazine and his father was a headmaster of Dalton. Sort of an elite private school school He went to Horace Mann which was a an elite private school as well in New York and this was in the middle of the Vietnam era and he was then at that point is life absolutely convinced in one thing and that is at the present. United States should have total authority to respond to threats to the United States and he debated I talked it to some of his high school classmates. The balance of power you know Congress versus the president and their dishes airy and even at that point as a teenager bill bar was like the president needs the authority to act unilaterally and foreign affairs he supported the war in Vietnam and he believed that passionately then and to this day. He is a an aggressive arrested supporter of presidential power. He went to a parochial school as a kid the family were were were deeply committed Catholics. Right they were and he's an observant Catholic today and I you know. I don't think that's a major issue that sets his personal life and it's fine but he was very political even In in the parochial school. you know He. He told none That he wanted to vote for Richard Nixon when he was in elementary school and The non replied. You know I'll Apprai- for you then But that to his credit is the kind of courage of his convictions. He's always been willing to sort of speak out You know stand up for what he believes then. And he's been very very consistent throughout his life about what he's fighting for. He Goes College at Columbia. which must have been at the height of the student? Protest Movement did did his thinking drift left at all from that experience. I know from again. We heard his. He was sort of repulsed by this according to folks in him at the time time when Columbia students that have famously took over the main administration building He saw this as sort of chaotic and so while you know everyone else of his generation or many of the people of his generation are protesting the war he actually did internships at the CIA his father had served in the precursor to the CIA in World War. Two and you know young Bill Barr of graduates from Columbia. Doesn't internship at the CIA to Graduate School at Columbia as well in you know does is Chinese studies but his first job out of graduate school is actually at the CIA as an analyst about China so he becomes an analyst at the CIA. Okay then goes to law school and then find himself at the CIA as office of Legal Counsel and this is when George Herbert Walker Bush was director of the CIA. What kind kind of issues was the CIA confronting at that time? So they were. You know watching an classic power struggle on full between Congress and the President This is after Watergate of but there had been a congressional investigation of famous Senate Committee called Church Committee that had found decades of abuses by the CIA and the FBI. I where both organizations had spied on Americans they spied on Martin Luther King You know the FBI sent king false letters of the C. I. A. Spied Spied on John Lennon so there was an effort by Congress to enact all these laws restrict what the CIA was doing and they're sort of a great anecdote Where George TURBOT Walker Bush then the CIA director is testifying before Congress to congresswoman from New York famous one Bella Abzug Her male had been opened by the CIA for decades Geico because she had represented various people. Accuse them McCarthyism and so there was a law that Congress wanted to enact whereas would apologized. Every American who's letter had been an open by the agency. Bush testified against that at one point in the hearing he turns around and ask Bar this sort of young age in his late twenties for advice. How to answer a question question Bush takes bars advice. You know delivers the answer bar. Recommends and bars really struck by George H W Bush and impressed by him right he he. He then moves into the government in the Reagan White House. Reagan is elected Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighty. He becomes a White House. Deputy Assistant Director for Legal Policy Z.. And over the course of the Reagan administration the there were big issues about independent counsel investigations into government misconduct in-duct in part because of this huge scandal the Iran Contra scandal. You WanNa remind us what that was about and bars view of these issues Yeah it's the mid nineteen eighties the continuation of this same debate from the seventies about the balance of power between Congress and the President Congress had passed a law specifically banning the Reagan administration from aiding anti-communist rebels the contras in Nicaragua and the White House. began a secret effort to funnel money to those was guerrilla groups in Central America. They sold weapons to Iran. Partly in a way to try to get some American hostages free that were being held in Lebanon and then they use is the proceeds from the arm sales to fund the contras that became the Iran. Contra scandal it was completely illegal You know William Casey the CIA. I director ran this. He violated again. A law passed by Congress. Barring this aid there's a huge inquiry There's a you know a joint congressional committee that looks into it and there's these famous scenes of Oliver North Testifying he had you know. Run this this secret program that was illegal and north defiantly finally said the president and myself as his aid. We have to act unilaterally to defend the country and it's the same argument went over and over again after the Reagan administration. William Bar is actually appointed attorney general by George Herbert Walker Bush who wins the nineteen eighty eight election and this issue of special counsel investigations into this scandal. The secret arms sales the Iran Contra scandal affected a lot of people's lives What role did did borough play? What happened so near the end of the Bush administration and there was a lot of complaints that the special counsel who've been appointed to investigate iran-contra Lawrence Walsh was was overzealous and about a half dozen? People have been convicted acted or were awaiting trial and after Bush lost the nineteen ninety-two election to bill. Clinton Bush personally sort of blamed the special counsel and the Continuing Shadow Veron on Contra for hurting his re-election effort and Bush then pardoned about a half dozen of these former administration officials who've been convicted or awaiting trial under the Iran Contre Special Prosecutor bill very much supported that Ignoring special counsels fit his philosophy of executive power. He felt that the creation of a special process which came out of Watergate was dilution and a weakening of presidential power. He felt that inspectors general which are also these independent and Investigators that look for waste fraud and abuse created by Congress. They you know are as well. So bar supported these pardons But they are very controversial. It was seen as the major blow to Congress's power in essence these half dozen officials could violate a law Lied to Congress and get pardoned for it and and if there's going to be a sort of balance of power you know it's good for administration officials to fear lying to Congress into fear breaking laws. Yeah this this is. This is an interesting dispute here. And before he was attorney. General for President Bush. He headed the justice. Department's Office of Legal Counsel. You mentioned that he wrote a memo Komo on executive in congressional power that gives us a sense of what his logic here was. I mean doesn't the executive need some check on on its actions in speeches over the years. He's talked about the executive branches the most effective branch of the government and that when the United States has has faced you know major threats even existential threats from the civil war to the Great Depression. Two World War Two. He feels that the executive branch is what has responded most cost-effectively and and really saved The United States Many people disagree with that view. But you know he he feels that you need a decisive Individual with a democratic mandate you know elected by the people the United States that can act decisively that the legislative branch is sort of two divided and judicial additional branches to to slow To kind of respond in a decisive ways that are needed to defend the country right. That's an argument for efficacy. Is there a constitutional institutional argument as well. I mean is this what the founders intended. Well this is this great debate and we'll talk about what's happening today but many people say no You know Donald IRA who was a you know a deputy attorney general Also in the Bush administration you know told me that Bars views on presidential power are chilling and deeply really disturbing Laurence tribe a Harvard professor. Some would say left leaning. You know he said that if bars views of executive power you know take hold old will have a chief executive who is more powerful than king billboard grew up Catholic. He's remained a committed Catholic all his life. A man of faith. Is there evidence that this has affected his judgements or justice department policies or his religious convictions reflected in policy moves made made by the department. I think it's very important that you know to let his faith private and and it's hard for me to say it's impossible to say you know whether it's impacts impacts His thinking he does Support and the Justice Department filed briefs pushing for government tuition reimbursements to go to religious schools. There's a couple of states those have been filed and He supports that in his speech at Notre Dame he talked about religious education being a really important in cure for social ills. He felt that religion was more effective at ending though social ills than government intervention and. You know there's divides in the Catholic Church. You know there are liberal Catholics. WHO disagree with that they're conservative Catholics? Who supported and so? It's hard to say but he does back taxpayer funding being of of religious schools. And he's a very strong opponent of abortion. Rights see supports the overturning Roe V. Wade you also noted that when he was attorney any general under George Herbert Walker Bush that he had some strong views on the nature of crime and the criminal justice system and there was a religious element to that too wasn't wasn't there Bartok's publicly about morality and the need for religion is in his speech at Notre Dame he said that for democracy to survive many he people needed to be Observant that religion would cause people to follow a moral order and the law and act properly and uphold democracy. Many eight people were offended by that. They said that you know the founding fathers talked about separation in charge that you don't need to be religious to participate in democracy you you can be an atheist and then there was a separate Statement he gave a nineteen ninety-five symposium where he spoke about violent crime and he argued that the root cause of crime was not poverty but immorality morality He said violent crimes caused not by physical factors such as not enough food stamps in stamp program but ultimately by moral factors and again and liberals sort of find this offensive they find it sort of preaching and worries them that there's this sort of message. They contend that you have to be religious to sort of be a you know properly functioning member of society or that that there's sort of a a a message being sent That violates the bedrock doc American separation of church and state. The you should be free to follow any religion you wish and free to follow no religion. bars ars defenders. Say He's he's just expressing. His views and liberals are overreacting to what he has said. We're GONNA bar came into the trump administration After the president fired jeff sessions but before he was appointed. He sent this pretty. Well publicized. Now Nineteen Page legal memo to Rod Rosenstein Rosenstein the Deputy Attorney General about the Muller Investigation. What did it say it said that the president can only be guilty of obstructing directing justice if he does a handful of a very severe things such as destroying evidence or clearly and openly pressuring a witness to lie and many people feel that the message of the memo which he submitted before he was nominated was that he would defend trump and trump was furious? Jeff sessions because because he felt he wasn't kind of reining in the Mueller investigation and trump famously. Said where is my Roy. Cohn I want my Roy Cohn and that's a reference to this very famous Amos New York lawyer who was in a senator McCarthy during McCarthyism in the sixties when many people were questioned unfairly about being communists. But it's this kind of no olds bar You know fight for your client attack your opponent's approach that law that Roy Cohn embodied that trump was sort of looking for he wants an attorney general who functions as his fighter his advocate. And you know the story says you know he wants an attorney general. That's going to be his his sword and shield right. Did trump have much of a relationship relationship with Barbie for this was the bar supporter or contributor to trump He wasn't he actually barmaid. Many donations to mainstream Republicans bar back act Jeb Bush in the primaries but he quickly turned around on trump. He you know bar felt that the media was critical of trump. that the left sort of overreacted to trump's chiefs win and so there's a sense that bar kind of Goes into this job. Because he sees the presidency being weakened he sees the Mueller investigation in as like deluding presidential power and again he believes it's critical for the country to have a strong president He also believes the Justice Department is sort of Being weak and so so I I got the sense from people close to bar that he's you know more loyal to the presidency And these beliefs he has and I think he's a clear supporter president trump. But but he is. He's working for his view of of what the constitutional system should be rather than you know solely out of personal loyalty to Donald Trump. I was Gonna ask what you heard from people who know bar about this memo. I mean it's no small thing to write this nineteen page memo that. Nobody asked for did people's see this as I dunno driven by ambition or is it his principal belief that things were going the wrong direction so his friends said it was his principal belief that things are going in the wrong direction and he had to you know step in and he was at the end of his career and he could. Do you know what he felt was right. And and then there's others it said it was. He wanted to get back in the game that it was a clear signal to the president and the trump administration That he would defend the president from anything Muller IT WAS GONNA do trump points William bar think. He says he was my top choice from day. One or words to that effect When Bart takes over the Justice Department you write that morale was low in part because president trump had required the justice department to defend contorted legal positions like what the trump legal agenda is farther right than the Reagan administration are sort of any Or the George W Bush administration has taken and One of the striking things is that the Justice Department under president trump and under bar There was several automakers that made an agreement to to reduce their emissions with the state of California. The trump bar justice department immediately announced an antitrust investigation against those automakers because because privately White House officials saw this agreement as a PR stunt that was you know out to embarrass the administration. And that's just one example of this extraordinary use of the justice this department to sort of attack companies corporations that are seen as enemies by the White House and this is very different from a private sector that the Reagan administration you know believed in unfettered capitalism. You you wouldn't create an antitrust investigation to attack company. You know you let it do its business yes And that's what's so different about the trump era David Road story about William Bars in the January twentieth edition of The New Yorker and at New Yorker Kerr Dot com after a break. He'll talk about bars. Handling of the mother. Report and the whistleblower complaint about President Trump's phone call to the president of Ukraine also so TV critic David B. and Cooley Reviews Star Trek Picard starring. Sir Patrick Stewart I'm Dave Davies and this is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message come from University of Maryland Global Campus Make Twenty twenty the year. You take the next step in your business. Education at University of Maryland global campus you you can earn an MBA in just eighteen months U. N. G. C. was founded more than seventy years ago to serve working adults like you with online courses no cost digital course I materials and a streamlined admissions process with no gre or G.. Mat Required get started today at U. M. G. DOT EDU slash podcast. We're talking about President. Trump's Attorney General William Barr with veteran investigative reporter David Road Who's now executive editor for news at New Yorker Dot Com road. Says Bar is a fierce advocate for trump and in a new article for the magazine. He explores the roots of bars conservative values and his longstanding commitment commitment to increasing presidential power for decades there have been battles between presidents and congressional committees who have sought information and presidents residents have resisted claiming executive privilege. And you write that. Historically Justice Department lawyers have tried to help resolve disputes. Kind of mediate them. Come to an understanding standing. How did the Bar Justice Department handled decision? One of the changes we heard about was that you know instead of Trying to kind of mitigate negate gives some information or Congress to get a middle ground. Is that the Justice Department under bar is no longer doing that. They simply are asserting executive privilege in multiple all cases saying that the president you know does not have to turn over information to Congress. There's an amicus brief that Bars just pharmacist filed saying that the president's it's tax returns and financial documents should not go to the Manhattan District Attorney who's investigating whether he engaged in tax fraud or potentially this illegal campaign payment to keep quiet women with allegations against the president on impeachment bar very much supports the effort by the White House to block the handing handing over of all documents related to the impeachment investigation in blocking the testimony of any White House aides in the impeachment investigation and this is just just extraordinary. Impeachment is Congress's ultimate power It's it's some say it's being used to aggressively now but to have the president of the United States. Say say none of my aides. No documents nothing to a theoretically coequal branch of government has never happened before in American history. I'm I'm not a lawyer but I mean it seems to be that for this blanket. Refusal to provide information to Congress to be institutionalized going and forward it would kind of have to be ratified by the courts. Wouldn't have these issues. been tested in in the legal system are are members of Congress. Reluctant to go either to establish a precedent. Many questions have not been resolved by the courts yet. The courts tend to be a slow you know. Various cases are winding their way to the Supreme Court. And in the end you know the Supreme Court ruling on all these key issues could redefine the balance of power between the different branches of government. This is a historic time and a historic moment. And there's a chance you know with two justices appointed by Trump that are supporters of executive active power that the court could support a more powerful presidency than we've ever had in American history. The swing vote and all this is chief justice. John John Roberts who Americans can you know watch now overseeing the Senate trial it's really in his hands Whether you know there's a redefinition of the balance of the power between Congress and the president Some critics of Democrats in Congress. They've rushed the impeachment that they should have gone to court I to try to get certain key. Witnesses assist to testify but the Democrats say they don't have time for that. They're trying to push through the impeachment quickly but all of this. I just can't emphasize enough is extraordinary. Mary the scope of changes the aggressiveness of bars legal theories and tactics The precedence that the trump administration is creating creating for future occupants of the Oval Office. It's monumental what is unfolding today. Well a lot has happened. Surrounding William Bar Muller investigation including his handling of the Mullahs report when it was released and he received it and issued a statement which became the public face of the report for weeks until redacted version of it could be published. Remind us what happened and how Muller reacted so. The report is handed over Vert Bar. He's only been in office for for several weeks and Muller had prepared summaries of the report that had been re redacted of Intelligence information or sensitive information and instead of releasing that bar produces own four page summary that included to be fair some the basic inclusion Asian In the report that that the more investigation and not found collusion between the trump campaign and Russia but the summary Did minimize the extent the the number of examples that had been found of trump trying to obstruct the investigation and all there were ten examples of possible obstruction of justice. That Muller found so this four page summary it was seen essentially according to critics like backed the president's messaging that he had been exonerated and so for weeks. You know that message was out there. And then the full report comes out and there's all kinds of questionable actions by the president some say obstruction of justice and this is is where the criticism of bars that he's acting political agent of the president and since Watergate attorneys general are supposed to be independent to not be overly the political But this was an early sign of what bar was going to be like during his tenure. As Attorney General you know that is remarkable. Because I don't want when you write about how you know. Bar is in lockstep with his with the president on a lot of controversial issues like immigration policy the citizenship question on the census. I mean I think a lot of people would say well. Isn't that what every attorney general does for the person appointed them. So this is a big debate. And you know there's there's a sense that some attorneys general have been More Political Bobby Kennedy was seen his. You know supportive of his brother Ed meese with the Reagan administration went around. You know they were unhappy with Supreme Court decisions. and Ed meese gave speeches telling Americans you don't have to see Supreme Court rulings as the law of the land you know you can have subsequent legal interpretations which was an extraordinary statement and then the most infamous attorney general general Would Be John Mitchell. He served as attorney general under Richard Nixon and while serving as attorney general he oversaw a campaign slush fund that was used is to smear enemies of the president. It was an illegal activity. After Being Attorney General Mitchell becomes the chairman of Nixon's campaign and then Watergate is carried out. John Mitchell four crime he committed after being attorney. General is sent to prison is tried and convicted. He's the only attorney general to have gone to prison awesome so there is a post Watergate norm Edward Levy a conservative From the universe ICAGO becomes attorney general after Watergate and he sets a strict standard of independence that that for people to believe that the courts are fair that everyone gets a fair trial that you're not prosecuted included. You know differently because of your political party. It's critical for the Attorney General the Justice Department to administer the law independently in an apolitical way. And you know there's been ups and downs in different attorneys generals have been you know political conservatives would say that Eric holder protected Barack Obama but it has reached a new level with bar. Dr where he's giving these sort of very political speeches where he attacks liberals ends and again sort of helps push the president's message. David David Road is a veteran journalist and the executive editor for news of New Yorker Dot Com historian William Bar Trump's sword and shield appears on the January twentieth edition. Asian of the magazine also available on New Yorker Dot Com. We'll talk more after a short break. This is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message come from the Walton Family Foundation where opportunity takes root more information is available at Walton Family Foundation Dot Org who was custom Soleil money and what exactly was his role in Iran this week on through line of the assassinated Iranian general and the organization he represented have shaped the relationship between the US and Iran for decades. That's this week on through line from NPR. podcast where we go back in time to understand the present. We're speaking with David David Road and executive editor of The New Yorker Dot Com. He has a story in the January twentieth edition of the magazine profiling the US. Attorney General called William Bar Dr Trump's sword and shield it's also available on New Yorker Dot com one of the things that bar did was to support trump's criticisms of the muller investigation allegation including trump's assertion that his campaign was spied on Bar said in a hearing. I think last April that he thought spying did occur. What steps has attorney? Ernie General Bar taken to pursue these complaints so one of the president's biggest. You know complaints and messages has been that. He's a victim of a sort of deep deep state cu that there was an effort by the FBI and the CIA. And it's it's not clear. What the you know? Details are to undermine him from day one to leak negative stories to the press and then He. He claims that this the entire Muller investigation was unnecessary I spoke at length. FBI officials that were part of that investigation. They felt they had to investigate. The President Rosen. And he you know they're in the middle of Twenty Sixteen You know DNC emails have been stolen. They're being released and trump publicly calls for the Russians to find Hillary's stories remaining emails. As you know that's usually contentious issue but what's been unusual out bar is that he did. He use his term as you said that the F. B. I. Spied on trump's campaign and when there was an exhaustive investigation at is announced recently by The Inspector General for the Justice Department you know. They came to the conclusion that the the basis for launching the investigation was was legal and factual there were grounds to look at what was happening in that. The summer of two thousand sixteen there were major ager mistakes in the Surveillance of one former trump campaign at an aide. But there was no spying on you know the campaign and You know or or trump tower or some of the allegations that that the president is made and even when that report came out bar so too quickly issued a statement saying that his own investigation of what had happened was Gonna continue and he questioned the Inspector General's findings you. You know what bars down here is not simply to express opinions. But to use the power of his office to launch an investigation into the origins of the Mueller. A probe. What exactly is he doing? WHO's leading So it's this extraordinary power. He has been given by President Trump We're the attorney. General is GonNa Review the work of the FBI which is fine. FBI's under the Justice Department of the Attorney General but he's also reviewing the work of the CIA and the intelligence community in introducing the assessment that said that Russia had intervened in the two thousand sixteen election to help trump's effort. And what's unusual is that we've had had you know tremendous mistakes failures by the intelligence community. You know the I missed the nine. Eleven attacks You know Iraq. WMD You know the assumption there were weapons there for the invasion that prove to be wrong. And what's happened in most cases there are congressional investigations or these independent commissions the nine eleven commission's which are nonpartisan. You know to to sort of get to a you. Know a common history for what happened and then proposed reforms Bar has had. He's appointed a federal prosecutor. John Durham of Connecticut advocate to investigate both the FBI and the CIA. And how did they investigate the trump campaign and what happened and this is very unusual. Because you you don't normally they have a federal prosecutor looking at you know an intelligence assessment and many Intelligence officials I talked about said this is a piece of analysis. This was you you know what people believed to be true and that having a criminal investigation is sort of overkill and it could have a chilling effect where the FBI might be hesitant resident to look into corruption involving you know members of the trump administration because they'll be in an investigation of their work or an intelligence analyst may be nervous about contradicting the president about the likelihood of North Korea agreeing to a nuclear arms deal because they could be investigated themselves for their conduct so Barr says it's necessary that there are still suspicions. you know among some Republicans about Komi and the FBI's actions but there is a fear that again this is kind of it will silence people that they'll be a chilling effect. If you investigate this president you yourself will be investigated. Does the bar investigation extend to trump's suspicion that Ukraine actually was involved in leaking the DNC emails and was Ukraine that interfered in the twenty Augustine election. It's not clear. I mean one of the unusual things about having a federal prosecutor do. This is that it's all very secret. It's not you know they're not willing series series of congressional hearings or or nine eleven style hearings to understand what happened in twenty sixteen instead. We don't know exactly what he's looking at and so so You Know I. I don't know one thing I wanNA clarify. Is that in the kind of you know now. Famous transcript of president. Trump's conversation with the president of Ukraine Trump famously says to the president Ukraine. You GotTa talk to my personal lawyer. Rudy Giuliani and you should talk to Attorney General Bill Bar bars Spokespeople folks people have emphatically denied. That bar has ever spoken to the president of Ukraine or any Ukrainian officials about that and they've also said that bar never Spoke to Giuliani. Left Parnis Who was Guiliani associate? That's been indicted by federal prosecutors. He sort of has said bar was on the team. But but there's there's no evidence that bar was involved in this scheme to you. Know as Democrats contend withhold aid from Ukraine and exchange for Biden investigation negation but It again just shows how unusual this is that bars carrying out this kind of investigation and he sort of. He's sort of in this position. You know when the phone call between president trump and Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelinski occurred that prompted this complaint by a whistle blower from the intelligence community and bars. Justice Department certainly had a role in handling that complain. What happened so this again was sort of a fascinating example? All of the power of the presidency versus Congress underlaw you know whistleblower. Complaints are supposed to go I of the Inspector General which is again an independent body? Set up by Congress after Watergate to you know act as a check on abuse and waste the executive branch and then the inspector general normally if it's an urgent and credible whistleblower complaint would send that to the relevant committees of Congress. In this case the key body would have been the Democrat controlled the House Intelligence Committee There was debate about whether it should be handed over. The question was sent to the Justice Department and bars. Justice Department said no that that it should not be handed over. It wasn't urgent. Legally there was a question about. Should it be a criminal. Investigation was the president soliciting campaign assistance. It's and there was a finding by the Justice Department under bar that there was no way to create a quantifiable value for the announcement by Ukraine Crane of an investigation into the Biden's and therefore it couldn't be investigated Many legal scholars laughed at that rationale. Of course there's a huge value to having an an an announcement of an investigation by the Biden's from Ukraine But Bars Justice Department did move the complaint and it moved because of you know journalism Great reporting by The Washington Post. you know made the complaint public and then it was eventually under pressure turned over to the House Intelligence Committee and eventually due to public pressure and more and more reporting the White House released the call transcript So there's questions again about why I it seems that Barsha Department blocked the release of the whistleblower complain so now that the impeachment trial is unfolding. What role is his bar playing? And what role might he play as the as this all unfolds as president trump's impeachment trial unfolds yet again. We're having this great debate about you. Know How much power should the president have. How much power should congress have to investigate? The president's conduct and bar are isn't directly involved in the trial he's not you know defending president trump in the Senate but his broad you know support his philosophical support for for a stronger. Presidency is clearly helping trump He gave a speech in the middle of the impeachment investigation the hearings that the house was sending at the Federalist Society. Any New York any sort of mock the left he said. The left was destroying norms and radicalizing and endangering kind of you know the constitutional system in their opposition to trump trump. And it was a sort of you know you know the tenor of shocked people and it was seen again as a partisan speech that kind of rally the Republican base. He talked about trump the air to Reagan. He praised his. You know for nominating conservative judges and it was right at a time when trump was under you know a lot of criticism and there was damaging testimony coming before these House committees from State Department officials and others. So you could see him. I don't know You know making taking more speeches like that Backing up the need for powerful president and sort of dismissing Investigations by Democrats and Congress's partisan as is a relevant. Well David thanks so much for speaking with US thank you. David Rhodes Story About William Bars in the January twentieth edition of The New Yorker and and at New Yorker Dot com coming up TV critic David B. and Cooley Review Star Trek Picard starring. Sir Patrick Stewart which premieres tonight on CBS. It's all access this is fresh air support for NPR comes from whyy presenting the podcast. Eleanor amplified an adventure series. Kids I love here reporter. Eleanor Atwood crafty villains and solve mysteries as she travels the globe to get the big story available where you get podcasts or at whyy try Y DOT Org. Hi It's Terry Gross inviting you to check out our new online archive collecting forty years of fresh air interviews and reviews. You can hear my interviews with people like David Bowie aretha Franklin Johnny Cash. John Updike Tony Morrison Search for names. You're interested in make a playlist for yourself. Her friends at fresh Air Archive Dot Org. That's fresh air archive dot org. CBS All access the online streaming service of CBS has his already tapped into the Star Trek fan base once by presenting a spin off series star trek discovery. Now about to start its third season but this week. CBS It's all access doubles down by launching a New Star Trek series. One that hearkens back to the original series I tv spin off star Trek. The next generation this new show premiering today is called star. Trek Picard and features the actor and character at the center of the Next Generation Patrick Stewart as Captain Shaun Luc Picard Our TV critic. David Cooley has this review Lou and that me bud blue The music you just heard opens the Premiere episode of Star Trek Picard a hardcore tricky. I know tells me that the same song also so figured prominently in one of the Star Trek movies at a wedding or something. But I'll take his word for it. I've seen and remembered enough from the Star Trek Canon to recognize a Romulo formula when I see one but a lot of the quick and often playful namedrop references in this new series or lost on me. But that doesn't bother me or even madder sadder because what counts is Patrick Stewart as Picard and catching up with him is what makes this newest star trek franchise entry so intriguing. The franchise is is by now a huge one the original NBC series began in Nineteen Sixty six and was cancelled after three seasons. Never once ranking King even in the top twenty five for any of those seasons star trek seemed faded back then to vanish into the TV universe and become a mostly forgotten sixties. Sixties sci fi genre trivia. Answer like land of the giants or the time tunnel except the original star. Trek episodes began being televised heavily. Alien Syndication and Saturday night live demonstrated the shows ongoing appeal with a brilliant star. Trek spoof featuring John Belushi as Captain Kirk and Chevy. You Chase as Mr Spock. A theatrical movie was released in Nineteen seventy nine then two more in the eighties in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven a sequel Gualtieri series was produced star trek the next generation featuring a new crew headed by Stewart's Captain Jean Luc Picard. That lasted seven in years and gave momentum to all the series and movies that have come since including the recent theatrical reboots and such small screen spin offs is deep space nine. Voyager ager enterprise and discovering and now they're star Trek Picard which begins on Earth in the year twenty three ninety nine picard is living the good life long retired and tending to his European vineyard when the anniversary of the tragedy that led to his retirement. Prompts him to revisit that issue on live television television he had tried to show compassion for some galactic refugees seeking asylum an unpopular decision at the time and since the wrongdoings food asked for our help believed we had a profound obligation to give. It felt. There were better uses for our resources. Aiding Federations Oldest Enemy Federation Federation chose to support the rescue efforts. Yes initially I have been known to be persuasive. But the federation ration- undestood. There were millions of lives at stake Romulo unless you laughed the enterprise to command the rescue screw Armata. Ten thousand warp capable fairies a mission to relocate nine hundred million Romulus citizens two worlds outside the blast of a supernova a logistical logistical feat. More ambitious than the Pyramids the pyramids were symbol of colossal vanity. If you want to look for historical analogy dunkirk as the plot thickens in this new series. We learn that all so-called synthetics the type of humanoid hybrid represented by data in Star Trek. The next generation have been taken off line. There's all sorts of intrigue on Earth and beyond which eventually prompts picard to leave his vineyard and leave behind his sour grapes to seek answers from a scientist WHO's a specialist in synthetics she's played by Alison Pill who portrayed. Zelda Fitzgerald in Woody Allen's midnight midnight in Paris and Maggie Jordan Aaron Sorkin. Hbo Series The newsroom. I'm real picard. It's an honor drew. Thank you for giving me the time of. Agnes how can I help you. You can tell me if it is possible to make ascension android out of flesh and blood. No really how can I. Is that why you've come here. Even before the ban that was will well a flash flood ANDROID ANDROID was in our sights but essentially one now for a thousand years. That makes it even more curious that recently I had tea with there there are plenty of other new characters and subplots in Star Trek Picard. There's a deep state conspiracy inside the federation and a mystery to solve and someone to to find and rescue all of which takes a few episodes to establish at some point picard takes to the bridge and says engage and we're off into outer space again but by then because we care so much about picard and about reuniting with him a third of a century after next generation first appeared on TV. We're engaged aged already. They've been coolly is editor of the website TV worth watching and a professor of television history at Rohan University. Fresh Air's executive producer. Sir Is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced an edited by. Amy Salad. Phyllis Myers Sam brigger Lauren Crandall. Heidi Soman moves eighty. Seth Kelly anthea challenor. Roberta shorrock directs the show for Terry Gross. I'm David They added yeah

president William Bar Trump trump Congress William Bar Justice Department United States attorney Reagan administration trump David David Road FBI CIA Attorney Sir Patrick Stewart George Herbert Walker Bush New Yorker magazine President Trump Notre Dame
Jon Meacham

Experts on Expert with Dax Shepard

1:40:07 hr | 6 months ago

Jon Meacham

"Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert experts on expert Monica Mouse. What would you feel like if you went to my body? Would you be excited to be small full of yes? There's so many things I would do if we switched. Yeah I'd run the closest mirror and get naked now. John doesn't want to be a part of that. Jon Meacham is our guest today. You've probably seen him on Bill Maher. That's where we've seen tontons great. He's a writer of. You're a presidential biographer. A former executive editor and executive vice president of Random House. He is a contributing writer to the New York Times Book Review a contributing editor to Time magazine in a former editor in chief at Newsweek. Yeltsin won the two thousand nine Pulitzer Prize for American Lion. Andrew Jackson in the White House he also has a new book called the hope of Glory Reflections on the last words of Jesus from the Cross and an exciting five part documentary podcast series hope through history so check out hope through history and please enjoy historian Jon Meacham. We are supported by legacy box legacy boxes a super simple melon service to have all your home movies and pictures digitally preserved on a thumb drive. Dvd or the cloud. Do you have home projects that you've been putting off? What's on your list cleaning? Out The garage digitizing aging tapes and photos legacy box can help you digitally declutter. It's the easiest way to check off this important shore because legacybox takes care of everything. I had a bunch of this stuff. Old photos some films. Vhs tapes you gotTA DIGITIZING BECAUSE THEY DETERIORATE. Yeah every minute you're losing precious material you really are just getting worse and worse and worse until you pop it in the legacy box. Send it off and they do the rest now. Legacy box is a way for you to easily and affordably digitally preserve your pass. The process from start to finish is so easy. You PACK IN SEND. Their team digitises everything by hand you enjoy. That's when you get back perfectly preserved digital copies on thumb drive. Dvd or the cloud. Ready to watch and enjoy. That's my favorite part. Is once I- digitize everything I could just send it to all my family members and save them step to brighten? Your legacy. Box is currently offering an incredible forty percent off by today to take advantage of this exclusive. Offer Senden when you're ready go to legacybox DOT COM SLASH DAX in. Save forty percent off while supplies last. That's legacybox dot com slash tax chance. John Hi how you doing good where we joining you. Are you a study in your home I am? I'm in Nashville Tennessee. I've been socially distancing for half a century so this is not that different from me. You're nice and practiced exactly now. Are you in the middle of? We'll tour no on composing. I am writing a little biography of John. Lewis in going back to my magnum opus. Which is a biography of Dali and James Madison I toggle between centuries. Yeah and how is your? Because you've been at this for a while and I have to imagine the digital revolution for you has saved your car a lot of miles to drive all around. Go like hidden libraries in small towns and stuff like that. But it's interesting it has made basic infrastructural research easier. It has put a higher premium on those kinds of small libraries collections that have not reached the digital landscape yet and one of the tests. I always try to meet is. Can I bring some evidence to the party? That hasn't been there before to. My favorite historical guys are McCullough of course noise and Carro increasingly. Did you re Titan? You must have. Oh yeah sure sure. Yes Oh the probably. My favorite historical biography ever written my best churn out story. Which isn't really about Ron is. I was interviewing Dan. Rather at a public event in Nashville a couple of years ago and before we went out he said I wanNA talk to you about Hamilton shirt. I'm at Jefferson biographer. But I have thoughts sure and we get out there and we're talking along and about you know eight nine minutes in. He says we'll run. The key point here is and I think You know all right tongue no problem. I did it again. I and then he did it again and I thought Jesus Christ see things wrong turnout and at that point you know. It gets so far past where buses run. You can't fix it. Honored present. Yeah so and port hometown crowd and so enough people kind of got it that we were all basically enabling Dan shirt. That's that's fantastic. I'm glad that you just went along with it. Because you know wine wine. What are you GonNa do see spinner? He's served his country. It's Ok now I really WanNa read Your Jefferson. Book the art power because I have read so many books where Jefferson is positioned as kind of an ass. Aw particularly right. The John Adams Books I came to dislike Jefferson through those books. Yeah well that you were supposed to be. David did the right thing. I wrote that book actually in part because I mean he been chased by McCulloch for about eight hundred pages in atoms. Ron Head hit him twice in Hamilton in Washington. And if you're going to be chased by anybody you don't want to be chased by McCulloch and churn out right right sure so. I thought exactly what you're saying. You know in the son of a bitch may have been a son of a bitch but he wrote the Declaration of Independence for Christ Sake so. Let's give him some credit. My argument about is he's not a hypocrite anymore than the country was hypocritical at the time and he's views were not that far out of the mainstream and if you denounce them and send him to the. Cross for our sins. It's actually leading the rest of the country and the rest of us off the hook. He was reflecting prevailing opinion. And you can want him to be a saint but John. Adams closed down the press and deported immigrants. Hamilton wanted a British monarchical system. Nobody's perfect in this stuff. And if you look back and you think oh they all have to be these virtuous rush Maureen figures. You're not doing justice to them. And you're not really enabling our our own time to learn from them because you learn more from centers or from saints you know we learn more from centers which is good given the relative proportion of the centers and saints in the population. I think increasingly people want their heroes to be flawless. And it's getting increasingly frustrating from my point of view which is like no. No these people are shitheads. On one day they're geniuses on the next day they are people just like all of us in if your expectations are perfection. Then we're not gonNA have anyone who we study or learn from and you can't learn from them again there. There's a reason there's a category of saints. Those are exemplary stories that are inspiring saints. Themselves by definition are also human. I I came across this or I heard seriously thinking about it. as a result of couple of conversations with Taylor branch wrote the definitive really Martin Luther King biography a trilogy. If you haven't read it it's worth it. It's a parting the waters pillar of fire at Kanaan's edge and he was talking about how in the second volume he had included the information from the FBI. Wiretaps that king had had a very vigorous extracurricular extra marital life orgies and he was under some pressure. He was under some criticism. For why would you reward the FBI's unconstitutional surveillance and sully this man's name and he made an incredibly resonant point with me which is if you treat people as monuments you limit their capacity to teach because who can be that yeah right so in in. Jefferson's gaze as a young unmarried guy. He had a crush on a married friends wife. He had a forty year connection with the woman. He owned I don't say relationship. He wrote the most important sentence ever originally rendered in English that we are all created equal but did almost nothing to bring the specific end of slavery. About but as you say if you want your figures in the past to be perfect. It's a fool's errand and I don't think it's particularly useful in in fact being sober the the magic of this group. This twelve step group is actually learning from everyone's failures to your point. I'm not learning from people's accomplishments or successes and I always San here like if I interview somebody who's won an academy award. I don't know how that's applicable to my life. I'm not in route to win one. And that's that story over but when I re grant and I go oh my God. This is phenomenal. This guy is a military genius and he's as dumb as it gets when it comes to managing money and get rich quick schemes. He would have been in every multi level marketing available. Yeah that's so refreshing in encouraging and I think it helps people go. I could have an area of my life. I'm genius and I could focus on this thing that I'm great at and can feel you know human about it. Well it goes to my my basic point about the country which sounds very grand. But it's why when people throw up their hands about anything. The incumbent president does as if there were somehow another five minutes before he became president. We were a perfect country Right Ryan. Then all of a sudden we're terrible at our very best. We get things right. Fifty one percent of the time at our very best. Abraham Lincoln was basically segregationist. Go read the first inaugural he reassures people in my native land that we have nothing to fear from him because he's not going to touch slavery where it exists. You know then. Circumstances change largely military necessity is what led to the emancipation proclamation and he becomes Moses but he didn't start out as Moses And I sometimes get dinged for saying. Oh well everything's GonNa be alright because everything has been all right in the past and and I don't mean that but I do think that if you set an unreasonable standard of judgment then you're foreclosing the possibility a of persevering in hope because if you have to get one hundred percent you're always gonNA fall short of that. But did their side of that coin. Is that our best moments. The moments we celebrate the moments we commemorate the moments you want to be associated with stoically are about liberation not captivity. You know it's about Apple Matic's it's about Selma it's about stonewall standing here today if you had been the congress the United States in nineteen sixty four do you want to voted for or against the Civil Rights Act. What do you want in your obituary? I just looked this up the other day. At the end of millennials. So in ninety nine Gallup did a big survey about what did the public think with the most important moments in the twentieth century. The Civil Rights Act was fourth. It was ahead of the Kennedy assassination. It was ahead of the moon landing. It was ahead of World War. One and one of the things that I try to do when I talked to. People who are in public life is bass this question. I sometimes I call it the portrait test. What do you want us to think when we look at your portrait on the wall and it actually has some salience and chance to work because none of them could imagine a world where we're not staring at their portrait? That's perfectly natural. You're asking them a question. They ask themselves hourly exactly what I now. I'm dead curious. What was one two three World War? Two the atomic bomb. And the make rib. I'll think I'll think of three second but it was. It was big right. Yeah so but the Civil Rights Act beat the Depression in terms of people room now. Maybe that's liberal guilt. Maybe that's white guilt but in really matter because insofar as we can use how history going to see you as a casual to make you do the right thing now. Yeah go for it right. That's a great thing. Yeah and and in fact bring up like an you know more recent example of this and I'll say that this is a virtue I most admire. Which is anyone can have an opinion and then double down on a double down. Just refuse to take on new data and to watch President Obama in real time. Be on the wrong side of marriage equality and then in a on the right side of it to me marriage. Equality is almost immaterial to the thing that I'm impressed with their which is wow. He could publicly acknowledged. Oil is wrong on that. And I've changed my mind taking on New Info and that's that's the thing that should be modeled if I may. There's even a further level of human complexity on that because he didn't really believe that it was wrong in the first place rice correcting A cynical decision which to some extent is even harder than what you just said. It wasn't new data. It was public opinion data and remember it was Biden who pushed him right right by. Got Out ahead in fact Obama said in kind of a condescending way Joe Got off a little over his skis there on an issue of human rights. So I mean maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe the Barack Obama. I don't think I am but let's it. Maybe the Barack Obama of two thousand and really believed that same sex marriage marriage equality was not right. I don't believe that I think he made a cynical decision for some swing states and then have the guts to undo his. Uh Him as you say kind of in connection to Jefferson. He was just reflecting the popular opinion at the time. It felt like a big swing to be like okay. I'm for this or against this but I guess the thing that we want. I don't think people want perfection. But they want the people who hold a legacy to have taken those risks and been a leader just a reflection to thoughts. Exactly right remember Obama. We kind of forget now to some extent that a guy named Barack Hussein Obama succeeded a guy named George Walker Bush. Yeah I used to think we would never see a sharper contrast in presidential type and temperament than George W to Obama until Obama to trump and now trump has made Obama. George W Clinton everybody look like Cicero right. They all have like Roman senators now in comparison but he was a black guy who needed to normalize himself a little bit in some swing states. And that's what do we really believe. He doesn't believe that. Having a health insurance mandate is the right public policy. I don't but he was against it in the two thousand eight campaign again. Perfection isn't the thing it's into exactly your point. The president's we remember most warmly tend to be the president's who challenged their own basis so Lyndon Johnson from segregated state on civil rights. What's the one thing remember about Richard Nixon? That's positive he went to China so the guy who chases Alger hidden the EPA too. Yeah Yeah but if you but most folks would say. But that's fine gap so yeah. The there was a there was a domestic. His healthcare plan by the way was to the left of Obama's to show you how rapidly the country can change Ronald Reagan and the Cold War George H W Bush and taxes. You know he had given his base what they wanted and then said you know know what I'm wrong. We gotta do this. And he's been rewarded for that in history. So it's the here's a category with no end. What the President doesn't understand. Which is you know how much time you got. But one of one of the fundamental things is he doesn't see you have to spend some political capital to benefit historically initially putting it in vanity terms for forget that it's the right thing to do and and your to your point it's a leader but people do reward. Those who challenge their basic assumptions. Okay I WANNA walk through your life a little bit. Because that's what we do here. I'm sure you listen to all the episodes religiously I of course you're from Chattanooga I am and dad was in Vietnam War we was in the Vietnam. I like that phrase Mom and dad got divorced. They did. And then you went live with grandma. And GRANDPA GRANDPA. Yeah and then he your grandfather or granddaddy. He had daily chats about local politics with all of his pals. And you just kind of hung around. And we're absorbing all that right and you wrote a letter to Ronald Reagan when you were eleven and got invited to his inauguration. Okay so I just WANNA say I. What are you in a handful of seven? It's hard to do. Something on a planet was seven billion people that puts you in a group of five and I got imagine I just WanNa five eleven year olds. Who wrote a letter to Ronald Reagan? Yeah I well I appreciate that. The latter part is a bit of urban legend. That's par but so the truth is even worse So the truth is that yet. My grandfather was a judge in Chattanooga probably when I was six he started taking me to court with him and I was excited because they had a machine downstairs. One of the old Pull the lever vending machines. Osher and you could get peanuts and so you could pull the thing occur and you get the peanuts and get a coke during the recesses so I felt the recesses of great and I still don't quite understand how they did this in terms of a workday but it is absolutely true that the district attorney sometimes the mayor a couple of judges there was a state Supreme Court justice who was around. The sheriff was around a little bit. They would at ten o'clock in the morning so why they weren't working earned their salary which we were paying them they would go to. We had this old downtown hotel. It's still there called the house and they would sit around and have a cup of coffee and tell lies basically. They sometimes tacitly club and so to me politics to me. They were people and I'm convinced there's a line between what I do now and and that experience the Reagan thing was. I've never looked up the date of it but sometime in the fall of seventy-nine Reagan gave a sixty minutes interview and I bet it was with Mike Wallace. Mike Wallace was an old pal of Nancy's family in Chicago. One of the many weirdnesses about Nancy. Reagan is. She used to talk about how her father was a doctor and she had doctors hands but he was her stepfather. Okay Joe Orlando P section of the genetic. Ingo being and I was just fascinated by it. I can't imagine it was the substance. I don't think I had a lot to say about the grain embargo of of that year. But Reagan Kiki communicated this kind of Mystique of power and politics and I was sort of hooked. You know he had he had studied. Fdr devoted form four times. There's a great scene in September nineteen thirty six. Fdr comes to the Iowa State Fair which was late in the summer and Reagan is working for who he's doing. The cubs games is the year before he went to Hollywood and got his contract and he actually runs across the studio offices to catch a glimpse of FDR as he goes by in in in the motorcade and he learned from Roosevelt. How a president should act litter in every sense of that term so he had a way of communicating he embodied the state somehow and so that was appealing to me and so I volunteered. I was in the sixth grade. I volunteered at the Hamilton County. Republican headquarters which was next to a dive bar called. Leonard's De a Lotta. The Leonard served a hamburger. That was basically onions with some meat. I remember that detail very clearly anyway so I was just around the local politics for about a year or so and he wins of course and I got an invitation to the inauguration and I talked my grandmother in detecting me up there so I was on the lawn of the Capitol on the West Front Tuesday January twentieth. Nineteen eighty one when Really in many ways modern politics began while and when you were there. Did you have fantasies of being a politician? Go Yeah you did. You thought you might be a politician. Oh yeah look if you were a white southern episcopate in child you thought you go to law school then you get out you run for office. Yeah now the drama of my early twenties was to do everything I could to avoid going to law school so I did like Saint Paul. I did put away childish things of eventually but when I look back on it. I'm pretty convinced that the tributaries that lead me into doing what I'm doing would be going to court with my grandfather being around those local politicians. Then it got nationalized and even internationalized by both the Reagan experience and then I read Churchill's war memoirs but a weird age. I was a really exciting kid as you can tell Mccullough's early stuff and all that boy. Manchester American Caesar and the last lion. Those books were hugely important to me. You're clearly a unique boy. Right you're are you are you and I say that with admiration. You're are you also at the High School Prom? Are you just completely on your own path? No I was a friend in college. He wants had a great line he. He's captured me as well as I think anybody ever did. Which was that? I was like frazier crane in cheers. I would be dismissive and critical of the madness and then go along and do it anyway. sure that was a really astute in insight so no. I was not a big athlete. Obviously I wasn't quite as weird. I'm making myself sound. You could make a good case that I was like the boy in the bubble meet C. Span. But it's a it's a little more complicated because you're roughly the same age as my brother and I'm wondering my grew up in a room with kiss murals on the wall. My mother painted for him like his legs kiss. Where where were they at on your radar? They were not. They were not high on the list. Goes as freely on Halloween? The poster on my wall was I have it right over. Here was of George Herbert Walker Bush and Ronald Reagan at the one thousand nine hundred eighty Detroit convention with the line. The time is now okay all right well that so. That's really specific. Now really really tells a lot so when I was a freshman at school called Salani which I loved. I got an internship to work covering a congressional race partly because I knew the people who are running back home in Chattanooga and the way I think of it now is I walked into that newsroom. And that was it. It had everything right. You could write. Which gave you some measure of control. You had a ticket to anything. It was all about all the things I thought about and read about since those days when I was playing with the peanuts. Yeah you end up working at the Chattanooga Times I love how you say by the way. I'm going to practice in Vermont all time. Yeah because you go go Should new no Chatanooga Chattanooga my twelve year old makes fun of me for this too so you have that in common. You're right the parallels will not stop there by twelve year old. Okay so you end up working. We're GONNA fast forward now you end up working at Newsweek in DC and you become the executive editor in the executive vice president ultimately at Random House. And I'm wondering throughout this time. Do you know you're bound to write historical novels or are you? What's your game plan at? That point didn't really have one. I'm case of sort of a rat boarding a lot of sinking ships so daily Journalism Weekly Journalism Hardback books. I have a real eye for the future. Advocates is to door Furman. Yeah so pretty. Soon I'm GonNa Launch This thing called Gutenberg it's going to be but I was lucky in that everything sort of into telling these stories about the foibles of the powerful both journalism and just the basic reading getting to know a lot of these people that I just you know known from afar President Bush. Being the best example. I guess I guess the other sort of Rosebud. Moment was in the summer of Eighty. Six think kiss was on tour. Probably Shar Shar but I. I've been to so many shows at that point that I kind of knew the new the drill so I took some time off from from that and read two books. One was Robert Penn. Warren's all the king's men and the other was written by Evan Thomas Walter Isaacson called the wise men and it's about Dean Aitchison Able Haramain Robert Loves about these six friends who were part the foreign policy establishment under Truman and Eisenhower and Kennedy and I loved both those books so much that I finished them and then I started reading them again so I read each twice that summer. So I'm a case of I read these things. I loved them so much. I always had this kind of voice in the back of my head. Could I possibly play in that stadium right and as you start writing these books? You write several before you right Andrew Jackson American Lion. Which one you the Pulitzer do you see? That book is markedly better than the others are. I'm curious what you think you did right in that book. That's a very good question. I have no idea. I'm a terrible judge of my own work and it's not false. Modesty is just sometimes. I think I'll do something and I'll think man this is going to make them. Said you know the mailman won't even notice and then. I'll do something without thinking about it and I'll get forty letters so I I just I'm just not and the thinking journalistically there. You sway between semi to outcomes are. I'm the greatest gift to comedy to ever live. And I'm the worst piece of Shit how they let me on a show. There's no middle ground for me. I'm either God or the devil in my assessment. You Know I. I don't want to in any way. Harm your sense of self but I don't think that's a unique view. That's what I'm hoping. Yeah Yeah I do I do veer and but I have you found this. You forty five okay. Have you found that you are easier on yourself to some extent today than you were say ten years ago? Yeah thousand percent as I've gotten a handle on my ego and I realized that the things that create sustainable kind of self esteem aren't really related to the results. And I've definitely the thing. I now mind for self. Esteem and pride is is just diligence and hard work. So I say I'm in the I'm in the show and work business not the results. Business in Egos just results business right. Two quick things come to mind that I have found. I am radically different than I was ten years ago in terms of the emotional swings and. I don't just think it's the medication this game. Stay tuned for more arms. If you dare we are supported by square you know square that Little Cue card reader. That handles all your transactions. Will they do much much more than that? And with social distancing in place many small businesses local businesses have made shifts to adapt but businesses are stepping. Up to the challenge. Yassin's FALAFEL HOUSE IN KNOXVILLE. Is a popular family owned Mediterranean restaurant? Now Johnson is bringing his business online he used square online store to create an online ordering page so customers can order food from. Its two locations for curbside. 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As anyone I've ever met in the classical sense of that and the way that the early church defined it which was not necessarily your character but your willingness to shed blood and suffer for the faith itself. I met him thirty years ago whenever I'm around him. I just think this is the most incredible person who's walking the planet right now and always thought you know what I should write this and so I was with him to family down. We were in Selma Montgomery and Birmingham right before. Kovic struck the anniversary of bloody Sunday. He does an annual trip down. There you walk across the Pettus Bridge with John Lewis. No it's like walking at Normandy with Eisenhower share literally. Yeah right because that is a domestic war story the civil rights movement. And what happened at Selma? What happened at Montgomery would happen to Birmingham? What happened in Jackson? Mississippi is as important to the American character and fate as what happened at Normandy or Bunker Hill poor apple maddix so I decided no what I'm going to write. This book was going to do it. John Specific he's got cancer is fighting it. He's eighty years old. And this may not be a radical reinterpretation of John. Lewis this if you know a lot about him. You may not come away dazzled by new information but I have an argument. I WanNa make about this man and I'm lucky enough that I have world enough in time to do it so I'm going to write this book and if you like it that's great and if you don't well you know what we'll move on. Yeah Yeah I could. No more have said those sentences in that order ten years ago then I could flown and I'd love to say that's maturity. I think it's just age. Well I I don't know about for you but for me. A huge help in that has been to children as as I had nothing to focus on but myself and occasionally I'd I'd give my wife some of my thoughts. I was all important and I was the only measure of how this experience was going but then once to other humans entered the picture I had to break out of my own narcissism and everything about me got a little less important in the most healthy way imaginable. Yup no I totally get. I wish I could give credit to them but but I was. I was the the old way for a long time while they were the eighteen year. Old Fifteen year old and a twelve year old but absolutely bill. Buckley want said every man should write a book plant a tree and have a son. So I'm done sure well Credit my friend. So how do you pick and we're GONNA get to your new book? How do you pay so in Jackson? Here's what I know about Andrew Jackson in a lot of it's probably Ally well. He was in a dual right. He's one of our only presidents that actually was in a dual entity have a humongous wheel of cheese. He put in the White House. You want people to be able to grab a piece of cheese when they visited well. Somebody's actually getting meacham from Vermont. I think sense it down there. And so what are you? GonNa do you get? It's it's like a it's like a re gifting. Okay okay okay. So it was like the liberty just arrived. Yeah just all right fine put it out there and maybe maybe they'll all eat it but what was it about him. That made you on fire to because I have to imagine you're spending. I don't know how long it takes you to write these books clearly over a year right. Maybe a couple years Jackson took five. Bush took seventeen. So that's a different story. This is longer than many many relationships people have in so I gotta imagine you might get on fire for them for a minute but you have to really be able to suss out. Is this a sustainable interest? It's GONNA be years. That's exactly the way to put it is. It cannot be a single date. 'cause you do live with them through thick and thin they also. I have found that with. Answer your question directly. Though the reason I did Jackson when I did it was we were coming. Out of founders. Cheikh McCullough had done John Adams Joe Ellis had done several really good books. Walter is extended had done Benjamin Franklin. Everybody was walking around in frock coats with with powdered wigs and then in sort of the march of time popular mind. Would you really go from the founding era to Lincoln right? Yeah Yeah and then it's and then it's d day and then we're done so I thought you know who's the most important American between the founding and Lincoln as Jackson? He's a fantastic character. I sometimes think I should've saved Jackson for my retirement because he was again. I mean the incumbent president makes him look like Seneca but he was temperamental. He was self made. He came from the lowest rung of White. Society never knew his father Z. The only red-headed President we've had Jefferson was Kinda red headed the Jackson. He had a good head of hair. Actually John Kerry kinda hair. You collect locks of presidential hair. We had someone on here. Who did that? I don't I don't we'll have anything to add my simple. Denial okay I have a lot of weird stuff bob. Dole wants gave me one of his button. Hooks one of the things because of his arm injury. So so that's that's about as weird as it gets Bob Dole's a great American and still going. We ran into him My son was with me and Dole called up couple of days later. Say Thank you for something that Bob. Dole here says senator. We'd love to come see you not hard to get on the calendar when you're nine. Hor that's my Bob Dole impression. You're pleased there ever been someone who referred to themselves in the third person as much as Bob Dole. I really don't think so. I love it. He made so charming a so great. Because I was a big leftie. I was young and a big lefty and even I was like I like the sky lot I live. You know why you liked him. If I may in a different life in an alternative universe he could been letterman totally great. He's ironic and it was all. It was all shield and sword right because he needed to distract from the arm. So I don't know I don't know if he was quiet as ironic as a kid but when he came back. The sense of humor was about. If you're laughing you're not staring interesting. Comedians light of me. Yeah It's interesting so Jackson was immensely important native Americans. He defended African American slavery. He was an architect or the perpetuation of the two original American sends but to circle back to what we were talking about. He was never outside the mainstream. And so would I dislike about the Not The revisionism. That's great. Let's let's debated all you want but you try to exile him to a corner somewhere and I don't care who is on the twenty dollar bill by the way that talk about a pyrrhic fight but if you think that you can put him in a historical time out and that somehow absolves the nation of its enduring tradition of injustice. Then you're kidding yourself and I think there's a lot of elective self righteousness when it comes to Jackson and the founders my theory which no one pays any attention to but I'll will launch it here again. People ask me a lot about confederate monuments and stuff. Yeah Yeah my view is if you were devoted to the American experiment of journey toward a more perfect union however imperfect you may have been then you should be commemorated if you decide on the merits in public places but if you were taking up arms against the order that actually produced the thirteenth fourteenth and amendments that produced the Civil Rights Act produced the country that we still for all of our happiness. We wanted to defend. Then you shouldn't. So if properly had had his way there would not have been a thirteenth fourteenth or Fifteenth Amendment And so you want to put him on a courthouse lawn. I don't quite see that. There was a fairly reasonable constitution in Alabama from eighteen sixty six to nineteen one thousand nine hundred one. They got back together they re legislated white supremacy and really nine thousand nine hundred to about nineteen twenty nine. I think is the period that's most like ours in that sense lot of immigration a lot of reaction to immigration the refounding of the clan the founding of the N. double. Acp TO TRY TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST JIM. Crow the narrow victory for suffrage in one thousand nine Hundred Ninety Wilson outlawing civil dissent during the first World War There's a lot in that period that I think is unfolding and echoing even now Now your fascination with George Herbert Walker Bush it makes sense because now I know you had a poster of him at a young age so I'll tell you one thing here Ellen poses a pitcher with George W Bush and people go crazy in. They're saying he's guilty of war crimes and everything. Here's my limited experience. I went to a resort in Africa. We went during the rainy season. It was completely closed down this wonderful place. Sangita my wife and I and we got to hang with all the people that work there because there was no other people and they were telling us about all these amazing people that had come through like Bill Gates had been there a couple of months before up the whole place. They're just going through this after. Listen these guys independently six or seven guys told me they said you know the coolest guests we ever had was was George Bush. He sat with us every night and chatted too late at night. He was just the most friendly likeable. Guess we've ever had. And of course I was politically opposed to him because this the father of the sun the sun the sun and I just thought. Oh yeah you know what the guys are Nice Guy you know? Someone really is talk to the staff at a hotel. If you're their favorite person that's ever come through. That says something about you absolutely right now. I'm the senior President Bush in ninety eight so I was in college through most senior President Bush's term. And like you. I think my roommate was a guy from Lynchburg. Tennessee named Jack Daniels. I was a little fuzzy on the Gulf War. I had this very nineteen ninety vision of Bush as Dana Carvey. Yeah and Attitide. I'd been around him for about twenty minutes when I thought. Oh this is why he became president because in a tumultuous turbulent and fall in world he communicated this kind of ineffable sense that you know. What if there are tough decisions to be made but war and peace? I'm a pretty good bet that he communicated that sense now. This is the father and one of these fascinated. Me was how a popular government in a media saturated age. There could be such a gulf between the way he was in the way. Even someone like me who spends a lot of time thinking in reading about this stuff could have a different view so one of the reasons I wanted to do. The book was to try to explain that George W Bush I met him. Who's running for president but got to know really at the end right when he left office and I was in the home stretch of the book about his dad and he was very generous. He was you know he was skeptical. I'd been at the magazine. That called his father a wimp famously. In one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. They saw me as his left. Lefty media figure but he he answered every question. What you saw was what you got and maybe you wanted to see something else and maybe you wanted to get something else. But he has this capacity better than almost anyone. I've ever known real people to ask the hard question to address the elephant in the room. Well he's got a charm about him right that was kind of made 'em teflon in that way. Yeah it's tricky to say it's teflon though because he left with a twenty one percent approval rating life so seventy percent of the country because now everyone looks back at him and his like oh he was great but ever no one. Oh no he. He gave rise to the first black president. He was a university. Yeah were disappointed. But this is why. There's a difference between journalism and history because I published the about his father twenty years after he became president. Because that's about the earliest that you can make a considered judgment. So here's a great example ripped from the headlines of of this if you're writing a book about George W Bush and let's say you had published it in the fall of twenty nineteen. I bet you a box of cigars that the word pandemic would not have been in the index Today he looks far seeing. He pulled together a response manual. We didn't pay attention to it. But what makes what I do to me? Fascinating is things that you might not have even taken. No dove in one moment loom incredibly large. The next it's one sign of how complicated the presidency is arguably the most important thing Bush forty one did domestically was something that passed by with very little debate. Which was the American Disabilities Act? Almost every building in America has George Herbert Walker Bush's thumbprint on it Because a Republican president in our lifetimes signed a big government bill that ordered every building in America to be different and be assigned in the fall of nineteen ninety which right after Saddam invaded Kuwait. Nobody paid much attention to it in his. It was about fair. Play and part of what the presidency does is it touches on all these aspects of life and and some ages you notice in some ages. You don't and the point of this debates is to go to your point I mean w looks very good right now Harry Truman. Same thing happened to Truman. They want what happened to Truman to happen to them. Truman left Washington in January of Nineteen fifty-three with about a twenty five percent approval rating. Though because of some scandals nobody even. I CAN'T REMEMBER. Even the door can't remember but as the decades went by a couple of things happened it turned out that containment worked. Nato was important The Marshall Plan paid off and through Vietnam and into Watergate. It turned out we kind of liked presidents who were really blunt. Okay I want to talk about your new book the hope of Glory Reflections on the last words of Jesus from the Cross now before we even launch into that what. I'm trying to as I try to do. Which is a bad habit But I do it. I'm trying to draw a conclusion. It seems to me that you straddle a little bit of left and right and I don't think it's an accident. You live in Nashville which I always get a good vibe down there. I also do an Austin. I always say about Austin. That's my city it's a liberal hillbillies so it's like you're still on a truck but you know you want gay folks to get married. That's that's basically me in a nutshell and I get that. Buy in Tennessee a bit. There's like a nice contingent of some straddle. You Wear Tattoos to the gay wedding. I got him right right. Right right so are you a straddle at all. Did you find that. You're not fitting neatly into a boxer. You one or the other I I don't I don't know I voted for president so both parties I plan to continue to. Maybe because of the way I spend my days. I just don't believe anyone or any side has a monopoly on insight. The I agree. And that's not to say that somehow or another because I'm not a partisan I the either for no more than part is I don't I don't mean that the system doesn't work if you don't have these forces and counter forces pulling on each other. I'm very much in the reinhold. Niebuhr HISTORY IS TRAGIC. Best we can do is fifty one percent. Theodore Parker Gooch's line that king used and abandoned use. The arc of a moral universe is long but it bends toward justice. If you don't have people who are insisting that history swerve we're not gonNA make it bend at all right so if you don't have Bernie Sanders and John Lewis en- dare I say it the folks on the right as well then. The dialectic doesn't work my own view. Is I try to be data driven. I think that there's a totally understandable but a largely irresponsible short hand. That people fall into that one party's virtuous and I just don't I don't think the facts support that. Yeah well I gotta say like you watch the McCain documentary around. Yeah but but I was like my God. Here's the guy who I didn't agree with a on a single thing and I can see and feel viscerally the integrity and I admire it in the Times where he stood up against his own group. You know you can't deny that it senator McCain is a great example of this I think President Bush Senior President Bush's you know. He gave up his presidency because of an economic decision he may in the fall nineteen ninety when he decided to break the no new taxes. Pledge he told his desiring he said I'm going to be dead meat But it's the right thing to do. And he had gingrich all these people pounding on him but he really believed if he did the right thing. People like us in the fullness of time would come to appreciate it and I'm delighted you know he's sort of lived to see that. Yeah Yeah Okay. So I bring up the straddling point because there is a stereotype of you've written a book about Jesus And you're you're living in Tennessee. I I'm thinking one thing but then I know how interested you are in the civil rights movement and then I go okay. That's interesting so what what drew you to the hope of glory. Well I'M A. I was educated entirely in religious schools so I went to an Episcopal Montessori which is kind of redundant. I guess when you think about a nominally Protestant secondary school and Episcopal College. I think that and this is speaking both from faith in a historical perspective. I think if you're making a list to go back to our list mode of the most important things that have happened in recorded history. What happened in Jerusalem around the year? Thirty three is as important if not more so than almost anything else including Gutenberg including the enlightenment including World War Two including the splitting of the atom the weaponising of of science it determines how we tell time and you can believe what you WanNa believe. But we're we know more about Jesus historically than we know about socrates into the Gospels not biographies. It's not like McCullough was got the interview they were written for evangelistic purposes. But that doesn't mean they're not useful historically and I the very practical reason I did. It is years ago seven eight years ago when we lived in New York went to the wonderful parish. Saint Thomas Fifth Avenue and we were regulars and the director asked me to do. It's a three hour service on Good Friday. Where you you give seven sermons ones think Guantanamo for believers. Yeah pound them over the head. I was going to compare it to Maybe seal week. Yeah exactly Paris island. So I deliver them and it's funny talk about a straddle so my view the in this very much goes where we were talking about about. If I produce something that I think has integrity. You take it or you leave it. This is fully within that zone. I believe that the Christian story continues to shape US fundamental ways. It has a greater capacity to do good than evil if we do it right. And if you concede the story if you see the story to what we think of broadly as the religious right in this country then your unilaterally disarming in handing this great tradition over to people who actually are not about the sermon on the mount but are really just about the Supreme Court and so as someone who call myself basically a kind of progressive believer. I declined to hand Jesus over to Franklin Graham and the rest of them. You know. It's funny as were very critical myself included on these quote moderate Muslims. We want them to be very vocal against the extremists. Were expecting them to stand up and say no no no no no. They do not represent us yet. It doesn't seem to be a ton of responsibility laid on Christian sustained up and I'm not a Christian but I am aware of the messaging doesn't seem to sync up neatly with any of the messaging that I feel like is what made the book sustainable for two thousand years to begin with a man brother of a yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's a fourth century. Roman writer noted Christians who are just come to power when Constantine converted and the writer said the surely. There's not simply one path to so greater truth and I totally believe that Marissa's my path yeah itself evidently is politically historically culturally important to our allocation of resources and our dispositions of heart and mind in this country And so the reason I did this was to say I think you can accept the truth of this story without joining blindly one temporal political faction or another all the mysticism and supernatural elements aside. I'll go okay after acknowledge there was this guy. Jesus Christ or Jesus Christos or whatever. He was killed punch pilot. Did order that God. This guy's famous. I mean for two thousand years if I just look at the fact like could there ever be a figure like that? I think for any number of reasons there couldn't be ever again it is astounding that one human being regardless is being talked about today on a computer. What do you think it is about the timing of it? The context that created this kind of indelible story. This will be a counter cultural answer. Okay good the reason we are talking about him is because that handful of believers were willing to die because they actually believed he got back up if he had simply been another rabbi or if it who had been martyred and left in a tomb both literally and figuratively. We wouldn't be having this conversation. The radical nature of the resurrection story which was so real to them that they were willing to be persecuted chased out of Jerusalem. Stoned change the trajectory of that religious narrative and made it both a cultural and historical one. The reason I think it's better than even that it really happened is because why on God's earth so to speak would you makeup something so stupid. Well well no no no no first of all they tell the story in the Weakest Possible Way. The women come and tell them. Women couldn't testify. The last person is mouth. You would put testimony in that you wanted to be accepted to the broader world. When a woman in the Middle East of the first century they dismissed it as an idle tale. And I just think why on earth would you as a believer. Would you tell the story in a way that so openly undermine Jareth thority if there weren't some historical basis because that's the way it really happened? Well I can easily come up with a motive. So I've got this group of people. They followed this man. The man said he was God if God is just ordered to be killed by punches pilot and he just sits there and he's dead. I didn't prove to be a God. So it's very simple conspiracy for me to launch to go like. Hey We know he was God now. It didn't shake out. He doesn't seem very godlike. You just killed by men now. If he had risen that would confirm. I mean you can see the motive for constructing that he did something that only God do. I see what you're saying but if you there's some terrific scholarship on this in my mind is not terrific scholarship on it. But I've read the terrific. Scholarship is like watching an exercise video but not exercising. Yeah Yeah it just. Nobody was looking for a human atoning resurrected sacrifice so they weren't speaking in any vernacular that would have been plausible share. It was a one off a total one off. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. We are supported by liquid. Iv I love liquid. I've I've been using it more. Never because as you know I've been jogging. I'm trying today five miles. I have the goal of a ten K. I Know I love that. Six point two miles and you really stand up your hydration. When you're running like that I get nervous about you. Yes so I've been doing what viant really helps with my job. Leave it or not. 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At target whole foods and KOSCO. We are supported by legalzoom. Health and safety is on the top of. Everyone's mind right now. No matter what happens you WanNa make sure your loved. Ones are protected. That's why legalzoom continues to provide a reliable way for everyone to set up the right estate plan without leaving home as you know. I've told you I didn't estate plan years ago and legal. I actually used this product and it's so simple and it. By God it stands up under the scrutiny of law. I need to do it. You GotTa do. It starts with finding the answers to your questions. Do you need a last will and testament or a living trust? What about an advanced healthcare directive and? What's a power of attorney? You don't even know that but you could find out if you go to legalzoom thankfully you don't have to figure everything out on your own legalzoom's online resources make it easy to get started and if you need to speak to an attorney. 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So he goes he goes deep for in Biblical terms six thousand years and now he's been deep again for two thousand Maha. So will you know what is it? The calls him up. Yeah it was like you know. It's Jesus is big foot. Yeah now. Here's my issue with it. It's like the messaging is so profound. I do think what he was saying. Love your enemy turn the other cheek. These are incredibly beautiful profound sentiments. That he should be celebrated for. Do we even need the mystical aspect of it for him to just be an incredible philosopher that once live like Socrates Plato. I mean could his messages be that profound that that was worthy of being passed along generation to generation. Yes intellectually clinically. What you just said of course but the reason we're talking about his articulation of what is not particularly original message is because because of the extraordinary story right and so. Your book is really. It's about the last thing he sat. It's a it's a spiritual exercise. There are seven started the Middle Ages there seven sentences that the church believes the D. spoke from the cross. If you WANNA be absolutely historically rigorous very hard to talk when you're being crucified imagine yeah particularly in Good King James English you know. I don't know how you say. Oh Shit how can this be over in tones? But Yeah it's father. Forgive them for they know what they do so I immediately. That's the first one I immediately take issue with it because that doesn't make any sense because they know they did right. They know what they did. And if it's part of a salvation history that this has to happen. Everybody should be happier with. They're doing all right. So the first chapter of this book is we're starting with a problem Everything I've said the last seven minutes that the gospels are problematic. This story is problematic. This is not a Jesus loves me? Yes I know for the Bible tells me so but it is at the heart of Western history. It is the story that has affected shaped change. More lives than any other I think and so my message in this is a lot of people are going to gather at the foot of the cross no matter what so. Let's take advantage of that. Yeah try to understand what happened why we think what happened. May or may not have happened and apply those lessons as well as we can by the secular tendency to try to move. Religion out of the Public Square is again a kind of fool's errand at the same time. The Fox News thing about Oh. Christianity is under assault is genuinely insane right. No denying the impact of this faith on Western civilization and then Collaterally my argument is. Let's understand it. Yeah or Santa now. Here's my question and this is where we go all the way back to. You have a twelve year old daughter so I was in a meeting recent. I just became aware out of nowhere because I don't spend a Lotta time in churches. How LITTLE ROLE? There is for women in the religion and I would see that as a real hurdle going forward where you know. God's a man in God created a son he didn't send daughter back and then all the apostles are male. I mean you really have his mom and then you have the Hooker Mary Magdalene. How does a young girl but she fucked everything up? She ruined she. She was born from his rib and then tempted him. You know I'm curious. How how Christianity incorporates women? Do you see that as an issue like if I was a young girl and I'm sitting there being explained this whole religion. I'm kind of like well. What what the Hell did we do in? What's my role in this? And why? Why would they join something that seems to have ignored my existence? Right one fact check just for Mary. Magdalene actually was not the prostitute. The woman at the well was a prostitute. Mary Magdalene was basically bankrolling. Jesus Oh okay okay. I'm sorry I'm here I'm here. I'm here to defend the very few women there. Are I come from a part of the forest? That actually is the antidote to. What very reasonable question. You raise the Episcopal Church now. I don't know what percentage it is but a huge percentage of the clergy is female We were earliest Sean. That in terms of from the seventies forward I don't think my daughter's feel gender alienated but as probably because of our particular tradition. Well I can. I own my own side so I I work in Hollywood if you look at all of our movies all of our movies up. Until twenty years ago are written by man and Lo and behold males are the leads. And even if you look at like the days of wine and roses ostensibly about a woman dealing with alcoholism but no. It's really about Jack. Lemmon having to deal with his wife with alcoholism and so it. Just it illustrates the nature of people. Right what they know. And if the only people riding are men these are the stories. You get Yup Yup. I think that's the energy behind. Your question is widely shared. I think it's you know I go back to the political realm on this. My girls go to girl and I was the Post Election Day speaker in two thousand sixteen. So you can imagine. Jeeze draft draft had to be redone a minute. I would imagine so I was. I was going to show up in declare white suit. It was been the land and of course and the iconography of power is where I land on this. We do not know even now thirteen years in the significance of Barack Obama and the White House for the iconography of power as soon as we can get a woman there. Yeah and otherwise say this. I almost don't care who. It is a caveat caveat fine large not the Gal from Alaska but John McCain's only thing. I've often thought that by late October. He wished he'd been back in Hanoi Nicer to him. So yeah you're right requires a deeply cautious the find myself so my my son is says a lot of the same interests I do. And he's the oldest and I have to watch you know when we're at dinner that he and I just you know run off talking about you know the future of NATO a because no one cares but as but you know that you that you don't somehow or another threat word gender rise conversation topics and thus power. Yeah and so. It's it's a matter of it's just vigilance. Yeah yeah I agree out of curiosity in having to see oneself in a story I think of it not even like I'm judging everyone in the past I have no more like an a very selfishly. Motivated Incentivize Y. You know how. How do you incorporate gaels into something that is so historic is what it is? Well I'm dealing with this right now in early American history because I am writing half a biography about dolley Madison who was the highest ranking woman in American public life for sixteen years really nothing about dolley Madison. I will take care of. That may not be interested will be available like CAL exam my bridge a the literature early feminist thought you can master it right huge. It's the vindication of the rights of women. It's a woman named Judah Sergeant who was an American journalist so I the the issues you're raising very much on my mind because I'm trying to without making her into Betty Free Dan in a hoop skirt. I am trying to try to understand if you were an educated woman in circles at the beginning of this continental national experience. What would you see as your role? And what would you have seen as the possibilities? Transcending it and I know the question. I don't have the answer yet. Let's talk in six months. I Love I love it We enjoy you so much on Bill. Maher. I can't wait for you to talk about that Book With Bill O. Know He loves he really approved the nicest thing passive aggressive way anyone's ever said to me was I think it was. I can remember is on the air or not. He was e bates. Some offhand comment about how idiotic religious people were so you know I'm religious. He said yes. I can't figure out because otherwise you seem fine. You know where that show is shot. Don't you end prices right? Studio is it. It's got that big wheel and all that is all crammed up against the wall. Oh the goal. It's really hard to spend Eric holder and I tried to spin. It might have been locked there. Maybe that was it so I hope the game show called Spin. The wheel in the wheel is five stories and it weighs forty tons so obviously no one can actually spin it. Which became this thing. Once we started filming. There's nothing rewarding about someone just touching than it takes off so they have to of act like they're moving it with no human could and then when it spans it's directly behind me a five story. It's like the fucking Chicago world's fair and I'm waiting for Jimmy Fall on me and I'm like will it be buster. Keaton look like a comedic genius. Wildland perfectly between US spoke or will it be. I will just disappear under it yet. I think it's probably the latter. Yeah Yeah Yeah. I've done the math on the wheel. There's more surface area than or Syria. John Yes John. What a pleasure talking to you and please keep going on a bill. Maher and keep writing and keeps arriving on their Nashville. Next time you hear let me know all right great talking to John Youtube and now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my Soul Mate Monica Pad man. We were just again going over. The whole phenomena with the period can just rehashing standing one in my car that had flam in it a sip of it and I started renaming thought must be boozing here that's why she screamed so I don't get it in my mouth. What's really funny. Is All those thoughts that we've now talked about for hours. They all happen in two seconds. 'cause it was all straightened out so really quickly true. But in that micro-second I had like a whole world fantasy about your life. Is someone who drinks in the morning and hides it area and then of course like how do I feel about that was evaluated all in like a nanosecond crazy? Do you think nanosecond evaluation is accurate? Tie You really feel real feelings? Take some time to process will certainly and they can evolve. But you've never liked my feelings on it which is so interesting because it's basically the feelings. I would desire for you to have for me. Yeah now opposite days. You said you wouldn't care. I said I thought well. That's what she's been doing. And she's completely normal and seems to have no wreckage or on manageability. So who am I to say? What is the right amount alcohol when you drink it now if you had like wreckage in problems and that's a different story entirely? Yeah but I know you in. You don't have problems and wreckage on manageability so I was just like. Oh my goodness she drinks in the morning and none of that stuff but obviously. I have on manageability if I'm drinking in the morning. Like maybe you aren't seeing it but that means there's something going I mean you say. Addiction is just regulating your emotions. Yeah so obviously. I'm doing that if I'm drinking in the morning out of a Perry but I gotta be honest. I don't know that I am unilaterally against addiction. I think I'm unilaterally against people. Being unhappy being miserable and demoralized in shame ridden. I'm against all those things. But if you're some anomaly that I guess Frank Sinatra I just woke up and he drank and he was drunk all the time and he loved it and he didn't care and it didn't seem to bother anyone. I wasn't married to mind you. Yeah I'm sure it bothered people. I'm sure I'm sure he was not happy. I have no clue I I would guess. Yeah nothing frank. Sinatra was happy seem very happy. He's good at pretending he was happy. 'cause people and Republic are GONNA pretending know what's interesting about. That group is like Dean. Martin was an alcoholic. He had wreckage. He was sloppy. It really was affecting him and he looked demoralized in chamber. It looks like it was hurting his life. But I'm not ready to give that evaluation to Sinatra's life I'm like I'm open to those anomalies type wagging my finger like oh you drink x amount. It's this you don't have to wear. I mean you don't know them so who cares but I think you should care. I mean this is my whole point. That someone in your life who love. I should care about their wellbeing. That's a big red flagged. Their wellbeing definitely deserves some follow up questions but I was open to the notion that it's impacting you negatively in any way and what a weird anomaly owes witnessing because. I've not met anyone who drinks in the morning out of a period can who's happy and not adult with shame. There is shame if you're drinking out of the period can well you would just be drinking out good point you're clearly high but are you like hiding going? Oh these people are squares a drink in the morning and it's fine or it's like what version of it so just I again. I was driving children around you have. That's a big deal breaker. Someone someone be drunk while driving my children. That's I don't really care. If he of shame or demoralized during that just that's a no go for me. Luckily it was just flam good old-fashioned on add one more to it. What's funny is because this scenario is so extreme right. I've discovered alcohol. In your perrier nine in the morning. Yeah I think part of you then fills out all this other stuff because that's so crazy but in my world everything's the same. I know you. I know all about you and your routine and your general well-being in your mental health. I'm aware of all that. Yeah I think when you do the fantasy with that was alcohol. There's a whole different Monica will. There is but that's my point is I was living real time. There wasn't another Monica. I was with her. So if the places were switched And I found some thing odd that you were hiding uh-huh and you're still you right. I don't think like oh he just has this extra thing. I'm like Oh there's this whole area of his life that he's keeping secret that's a problem. People don't keep secrets about things are fine about well. I'd say yes and no people have secrets about how much money make they're aware of what it does to other people. That's that's just keeping something like is someone asked. How much money do you have? You'd probably ans- like I don't do this but if I was someone who cook like I read Michael Pollen's book and I loved it and I didn't care dose of mushrooms once a week. I might be clever enough not to share that Info with people that would scare but that doesn't mean that I feel shame about it. The people that it would scare the people that care about you the most so the idea that you're keeping that from them so that you can do this thing private by yourself or have this thing is is not good secrets. Thank you shame as not good. I think we can agree on that part. We could build from seems obvious but I think there's secrets that don't give you shame. There's just it's public knowledge. That doesn't give you shame. Nothing I agree really also. I'm surprised that you feel that. 'cause you wear honesty is like such a cloak but I guess I'm giving you an example and you don't agree with that example but for me. It's a real example. Which is I wouldn't want to tell someone how much money I make sure. There's a bunch of stuff I may choose not share with people because I'm aware of other person. I know that they're variable in the equation so I have to consider that other variable because there's a lot of things that like I don't have about. I'm happy to let ten people now but I don't want to tell a ten percents going to thousand people. No I might not want two thousand people to know but I might be very comfortable. Ten people knowing. Yeah Yeah. That's fine nothing. Everybody should know everything about everyone right. But like I don't think the money thing is the same as the shrew because the money thing. There's this whole like societal layer on top. Like shouldn't talk about money that everyone's comparing money you are thinking about the other person industry rooms one your thinking about the other person but in relation to you. Well I'm going. Oh this person. Let's say was Kristen's mother who's traditional in many ways and I would go. There's no way I'm GonNa make her understand the value of mushrooms right so. I'm only putting something in front of her that she's only going to be judgmental of so. Why would I do that? I don't need to tell her that I don't need to make her worry. And I have a different opinion and I recognize different opinions than people in the World. Like some some activities scare people in some. Don't like I ride motorcycles. There are many woman that texts me like. I can't believe Kristen. Let you do that? Like that's very scary to them. They would be unacceptable that their husbands did it. I totally get it. That's their prerogative. But you know we'll just never see the same if you wouldn't keep it a secret from them that you you you feel totally fine and good about yourself that you ride motorcycles. You wouldn't be like I'm GONNA keep that a secret. Yes you're right about that but I'm saying if I established that there's these things that people never see eye to eye on so then as you just you explore different things along those lines and for me there can be gates of like five people know twenty people now thousand people know the world can now. You have to be careful. You have to really be policing yourself if you do that because you have to start thinking like okay. The five people who I told about shrooms are the people who are giving me the shrooms. The people who are doing them with me people who don't care exactly if the people you're specifically leaving our our ones you're leaving out because they might say to you. That's a slippery slope. I told you should do it. And you just don't WanNa hear that sure that will. That's a very specific thing and I think that's a big problem if you were hiding it because you thought people might contradict what your opinion was on. You didn't want to be challenged on right right. I think that's like a specific thing but but I can think of so many things. Let's say I started acting fifteen years earlier and I like to wear women's clothes now. I might not have any shame about that. Yeah I might have told five people yeah and also might not have wanted the whole world was it would have affected my career and so there would be a secret. That is a secret and yet it doesn't create shame. I'm comfortable with it in yet. I don't need everyone to La. You know it's all specific to the example because it's the history of the thing right like for shrooms with you. Yeah there's some fear around that of course and for you wearing women's clothes there's no fear you know. So it depends. I guess on each circumstance. And with Perrier I just think when something so secretive it generally means. There's a reason why there is a for the clothes because it because society is not there yet it would ruin your career. That's the reason that makes total sense. Yeah so what's the reason? A about drinking alcohol in a Perrier Cam. Like we'd have to find out what that reason is and then decide whether that was healthy or not healthy really boils down to Dr Alex which is like does it give you shame is that is it secret and you feel shame about it. I think that has to be the thing. We're evaluating so like if I find out your drinking and then you didn't feel shame and you're like okay. I drink every morning and I was like. You didn't tell me that you didn't ask me that right and then you were completely fine with it. You didn't care. Yeah and then your life was exactly how you wanted it to be. Yeah I just I. I'm hesitant to say that one things back like any one thing is. Some people can go do cocaine on their birthday weekend. Yeah I can't now but that person that can do that and does that fifteen times in their life that you know. I don't find that implicitly bad and I don't think anything's implicitly bad it's all in context and it's all about the. I think the the key the consequences of the behavior do you feel shitty. Are you miserable? Are you depressed? Are you on accountable? Are you know all these things we'd have to use to evaluate whether someone's thriving or not? Yeah and you were thriving all those. Yeah I guess it's tricky because this just this conversation just gets a loopy. Because if I was drinking in the morning there would be consequences would be. You're right. Yeah like the what I observed was there were this. I just discovered. There's been alcohol this whole time and no consequence so just curious to me. Yes yes yeah. Well anyway good debate. Okay John Meech So he talks about the Gallup survey that survey the public about what was most important moments in the twentieth century. He said civil rights was fourth and then he said was World War. Two second was atomic bomb. He couldn't remember three so I looked at up. Okay so one is World War Two two is women getting the right to vote in one thousand nine hundred twenty. Women's suffrage three is the atomic bomb. Oppenheimer four is the Holocaust. Nazis in five is the Civil Rights. Act So he was wrong. Oh boy we were naming the Civil Rights. Civil Rights was five five. Okay okay. Six was World War One seven landing a man on the moon sure eight assassination of President Kennedy nine the fall of the Berlin Wall. There's eighteen but mine got weird number. Let's do the eighteen. I know doesn't make any sense. At least nineteen was the nineteen. Hundreds of they did twenty. It was the twentieth century. You're right eighteen zero sense except maybe let me make sure there's not maury now eighteen okay. I'll keep going to of course okay. So nine was the Berlin Wall. Ten is the depression. Eleven the break up of the Soviet Union twelve the Vietnam War Thirteen Charles Lindbergh's transatlantic flight Fourteen the lodging of the Russian sputnik satellites fifteen. The Korean War sixteen the Persian Gulf War. Seventeen the impeachment of Bill Clinton wound an eighteen the Watergate scandal involving Nixon. So this is pre nine eleven clearly. There's no nine eleven. This is up until you're okay. Okay now what? Do you think your number one would be most memorable events. I guess is it most memorable or most important. So that's I don't even like this question inch pressure because you gotta get it right because like let's say I say the advent of the internal combustion and then someone quickly go like really more important civil rights and then I'll feel like an ass be some ensure that I'll miss a bunch of humanitarian ones. That I'll just feel like an asshole about all right but most memorable memorable events is much easier for me not important just memorable probably nine eleven and then and then space shuttle Challenger which you born yet but I know about it you know about it and every kid my age was watching it. I know it's I think memorable because they were tragedies in a very memorable as opposed to like the victories like I like that these many many are bad but many are positive like the women's right to vote and civil rights. Yeah Yeah Right. Landing a man on the moon. That's nice that's pretty high. That's seven I would've thought it was higher really you because winning. I mean left Earth or home and they literally went to this object. That mankind's been looking at for one hundred and fifty thousand years but argued that's even more impressive than the Berlin Wall and more impressive than women's suffrage. I gotta say now I mean we should just have. Women's suffrage is an accomplishment exiting earth. Your host your planet. I think what's very sad is. It's it's not as impressive. It's not as hard to leave earth than it is to change the minds of a whole country about people true true. I want to leave Earth for a SEC regroup. Do I mean the idea of going in a shuttle and stuff sound awful like I have no desire to go into space really but I just wonder what it would like if I could just tell up there now? I wrote this movie. My friend Steve Brillon I wrote for paramount called Space Race and I had to learn a lot about space space and then I read all these accounts from astronauts and there's a high suicide rate among guys who've been up for a while you think it's chemical it could be it. Does something nihilistic happens when you yeah exit and look back at that little rock that everyone's so busy on team like everything's important. I now you become literally alien looking at the monkees. The why couldn't it be the opposite? Why couldn't you come back to this? Be Like here's the the positive thing I want to add? Is that every one of those guys and Gals who've been up there. Almost all of them will say every time they had free time like they have all these chores up there clearly. Yeah but on all the off hours they all just stare at Earth like it's supposed to be the most mesmerizing thing to watch in it. Never they never tire of it because you can watch right because the earth spinning at one thousand miles an hour. You're traveling at seventeen and a half thousand miles an hour in orbit. You're watching like. Oh there's Egypt. Oh there's this oh there's an you're just watching you know it's funny. Oh Yeah and you can see the lights. Wow you can see urban areas you can. They say you can see the wall. Great Wall of China from I can barely see it. I can barely see it in. An airplane Alcoa we see from Mars. The Moon Orbit when you orbit. You're only I don't know how many miles you are up. I should remember but you know you're not that far away from Earth. Yeah even to get to the tip of her the edge of Earth. The flat jump off. Wow yeah definitely memorable. Nine eleven would be number one for me for Memora- -bility you know what's so crazy. And Cool is just and he mentioned this about presidents. You can't really even begin to write biographies until like fifteen years after minimalise because you can't see the full scope yet and you don't see the things that they've planted that then come back around and using the krona virus as a exam in. Npa is so crazy to think like this. Time is a very huge historical moment like this is going to go down biggest and history totally unknown. What the outcome is. Yeah in will not be fully visible for fifteen years minimally school Google cuckoo. I mean I bet. Also one that would make the list definitely. Wouldn't make less than my book and I think in general would be Michael Jackson's thriller video. Don't think that's going to make more or less. You weren't born you know. Is Obama becoming president? Yeah I can remember exactly where I was standing in chick but I was the first time I voted. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah. It was exciting. It was an Athens. I was in Bora Bora. Oh we were out of the country to hear the results is you do have male. Yeah Wow maling. What was amazing is that there was some cast members who did not want him to be voted and there are many who did. Yeah so it was a quiet three days after had this kind of like getting the negative results back from my Cova test. Everyone just kind of quiet. Yes I mean that also specifically that election and then this one coming up is going to be the same and this past one was or like it feels so intense like your side although maybe oh I don't I don't I think it's Newish that there's this really extreme division will. Yeah much more exciting so it feels so much more intense when somebody wins and somebody loses the first time I got voted for Clinton yeah and I was just like so excited so excited and I are so excited we call them our King King Clinton. We wanted to worship him and make him the king and then we're so into Hillary Rodham Clinton and we call each other and we'd say this is the the Hillary Rodman Clinton. We had like all these names for her. Yeah yeah well it's fascinating look back case so you said that you imagine he's one in five eleven year olds. Who have written a letter to Ronald Reagan? So I can't. There's no way for me to know. Okay he said he couldn't remember the day but Reagan did an interview in the fall of seventy nine sixty minutes interview and I. I couldn't find a sixty minutes interview in seventy nine. He did one in seventy five. That was like a big deal and then he did another one later. He's did few I think. But I didn't see seventy nine. Oh so he also used the quote. The arc of the moral universe is long but bends towards. Justice is my favorite movie of. All Time. Really good love. It ain't Obama on his floor in the Oval Office insert into the carpet. Really only got. That's cool know like you if you're a republican you're throwing up at this last ten minutes talking. Clinton and then. He had this scarf. But I'm going to give credit to Republicans. I hope I hope can appreciate that quote whether you're a Democrat or Republican. You should have hope that there's justice regardless if you don't I'm sorry I don't like you can be a Republican. Have that same ideal. Oh God yeah. I'm sure men most of them do so. He said the Episcopal Church which he's a part of has more women twelve percent of eleven thousand episcopal. Priests are female horrible. No it's not horrible. I wonder how many firefighters are women. Can you quickly? Let's compare the Episcopal Church firefighter. That's a good question. I almost typed in firemen. Well of course that's what they're called now even when they're women you call her fire lady. That's a great name like a Superhero eight percent really churches blowing the firefighters out of the water. Okay good by the way. Though I don't I don't think that answers my question so great. So there's there's a lot of humans involved but there's no deities. There's no natural. There's no role for women in that religion. I'm sorry I totally agree. I got a little caveat about this. Eight percent okay. Providers in two thousand eighteen ninety. Three thousand seven hundred. Eight percent of the firefighters were female of the career. Firefighters four were female. There were seventy eight thousand five hundred volunteer. Firefighters were female which was eleven percent of the total number of volunteer. Firefighters was different story altogether. Yeah volunteer firefighters are right. They were in my town. You could volunteer a little light and if all hell broke loose in exceeded the capacity of the Fire Department. They'd call out the volunteers in the the. You're like. My neighbor was volunteering. And you get to put that light on his dashing spirit and then help but he's not an employee our yeah we did. Yeah we have to go through some training. They don't just give you the light panicking here. I don't know what to do. We are the fire department. Oh boy well. That was fun. I always loved historians on it's different. It's different Alice. Fine Yeah I love you.

president Times George Herbert Walker Bush George Walker Bush Andrew Jackson Jefferson Barack Hussein Obama Cheikh McCullough Ronald Reagan Nashville John John Lewis Tennessee United States Jon Meacham Chattanooga writer Dan shirt
Friday, June 14: Kevin Bacon and Billy Porter

The View

39:37 min | 1 year ago

Friday, June 14: Kevin Bacon and Billy Porter

"Hey, I'm Brad milkey, and I hosted new daily news podcast from ABC news called start here. Every day we get you up to speed on the story that are going to be driving your day. We get important context from experts with on the ground access, and we do it all in twenty minutes. So start smart and subscribe to start here. Subscribe now to our podcast to get hot topics delivered every afternoon. And while you're at it rate us in labor review. We're fire enough Pride Day because the views darts now Democratic Party fouls, Democrats have been quick to go after one another the duty need to take a page from the Republican playbook about party loyalty. We're given city on a hill star, Kevin bacon. A flashback Friday of his very first big screen role. Billy borders, talk in dried politics, and the new season of pose, and it is feel Good Friday on you, your deal. Let's get this party started with would be oh, be huntsmen. Joy, Behar sunny, Hoste n-, Meghan. Mccain and Ana Navarro. Now, let's get things started. Okay. You might sit. Jacket, joy like this jacket. It's really cute. All righty, and the glasses. Of course, you always look, so pits the three of you. You know, dresses to the nines, you know, I'm very casual girl. Don't let these sunglasses Hulu. So Democrats and Republicans have very different ways of dealing with matters within their own party. Okay. And the director of media politics and public policy at Harvard University, Nancy Gibbs is her name. She says that Republicans, I'm much more forgiving than Democrats are within the party, not with the regular people. She right. Democrats were quick to get rid of Al Franken. But Trump still stumped for ROY Moore. Remember him in one word describe ROY Moore pedophile. Thank you, pedophile and invited accused white supremacist, Steve king to his Iowa rally this week. So is the GOP more concern alleged pedophile producers guy, they seem to be more concerned with power. It seems to me holding onto power and getting their particular things that they want, like tax cuts and no regulations. What else? Stuff like that. Then they are about, you know, stomping on the constitution. The I think is very Trump specific though. I think it's less about Republicans and more about being complicit and Ebeling of Trump because there are Republicans who have who have had to pay high price for doing things that were wrong. I mean we've had congress corker congress people, you know, I remember the guy from Pennsylvania who had the mistress who got pregnant, and, you know, he had to quit. I remember when George Herbert Walker Bush read, my lips no new taxes, and he got taken to the woodshed over that by Republicans. This is very much of a Trump phenomenon. Nothing sticks to the guy. He can cheat on his wife. He can cheat on his mistress with somebody else pay hush money. He cannot pay taxes. He can lie and nothing matters. Well, it does matter. It matters is just that his party does those some call him on it. Otherwise, it does matter. But who does it matter to? I mean. May matter to me, it may matter to you, but it doesn't seem to matter to those that are empowered because they just seem to be supporting him. No matter what doesn't really matter. Look, there's an old adage, in politics, at the difference between Democrats and cannibals is that cannibals don't eat their family. And that's what I thought. When I read this, it is true. I do think Republicans getting the line in a way, the Democrats, don't even historically in the primary political process. You know, there's more pressure sort of come out and supports the principal and the nominee than there is, maybe with Democrats, but don't forget after Bush the first Bush, there was a whole era of democrat renaissance with President Clinton office. And I always think it sometimes whoever's in power is the genius and members out of power has to sort of, like, you know, show that they're still the party has to show that they're still worth it. And I think what Democrats have to be careful of, is cannibalizing each other in the primary process. I do think Bernie Sanders took major hits out of Hillary Clinton and really damaged her going into the general and Democrats, don't seem to care about that as much as they care about political purity. Well. Remember, Ronald Reagan famous statement, Dow, shall not speak ill of the Republican party Republican. The Republicans do that during the primary as well. I mean they would take in swipes at each other. I mean, they did in the primary in the primary legitimate in line, they don't go down to the RNC and the DNC, and then make threatened possibly, you know. Around, whatever whoever the democratic candidate I actually better. They cost them twenty sixteen to do that. But look, I remember when, when Bill Clinton had his entire issue with Monica Lewinsky, and he lied to the country, and he lied to some of the people who worked for him, including democrat, and I remember some of his cabinet members people like Madeleine Albright, people like Donna Shalala, who was on his cabinet. They came out very strongly, and chastised him. And we're very disappointed in spoke against. We don't see that kind of snapping up against Trump because Trump comes after people and cost them primary elections. Wait below two hugely high approval rating. What happened to people outta that land Jeff flake, who actually came out and spoke against how? Had to resign. But then resign because at the end I don't ride. Right. Need to live with, with self don't you need to live by your constitution by your personal values? I say, then resign because I'm going to support someone that you don't believe the question also was able to our need side on both sides, regular people like us will they be able to talk to each other? Will you forgive the other side? I can forgive Trump voter. I can't forgive Trump. I like that. We'll be right back. Topic. Next week on the view fire up the hot topics ladies. And anything goes on the hottest place in daytime because next week either longoria Willie Nelson Dax Shepard Howie Mandel, Nick, Linda, and ISA curry are up come into voice Fairview next week gun ABC. Still ahead city on a hill star. Kevin bacon, Billy border on the new season oppose and it's feel-good Friday on new year deal. Day, forty four th birthday of the US army today's pride month. F Y is lose the first openly gay you as general Tammi Smith. She served during the don't ask don't tell era that she says silenced her from having a voice in the military for the first twenty five years of her career and was serving in Afghanistan in two thousand eleven when don't ask don't tell was finally repealed less than one year later, she became the first general officer and US history to announce she was gay when she was promoted to a Brigadier General. She's happily married to her wife, Tracey hepner, and we thank you all for your service. So okay, California high school. Valedictorian Natalie Barr is going viral for using her speech for commencement speech to air, very specific grievances against haram Amata to take a look to my counselor. Thanks for teaching me to pen for myself. You are always unavailable to my parents. And I is fine appointment. So the staff in the main office, thank you. For teaching me how to be resourceful your negligence to inform me of several scholarships until the day before they were due potentially cause me to miss out on of dollars to the teacher, who has regularly intoxicated during classmate year. Thank you for using yourself as an example. These students about the dangers of alcoholism. Okay. Is that a commencement speech or a declaration of war? Headache come have you ever dreamed of something like that? You know doing something I'm having gene right now. Tell off at you. Don't wanna go. Going on a serious. No. When I when I heard this story reminded me of how outrage so many folks were when we heard about the college scandal that happened this year. Yeah. And it's because, look, when you when you have wealth when you have privileged, when you have access, you've got people like college counselors will help you get in. This is a huge public school. She didn't have that. And so that's why when people wonder why is it so unfair because there's already all of these advantages that are built into the system. Yeah. For people who have more wealth this, I think this woman, this girl is student talked about. Okay. Really quick. We're going to know. I just remember my father always telling me the story was just a fantastic. Fantastic student in his guidance councilors told him that it probably be best for him to go to carpentry school. And my father ended up in a wonderful career of doing IT. He worked on the first team that developed the ATM machine he went on to be a senior executive. He went to a technical school and he's saying, don't listen to them well that they should have helped him. He succeeded despite succeeded. We've got right back. Welcome back. So the popular HBO mini series, tra- noble takes grim. Look back at the nineteen Eighty-six nuclear power plant meltdown in Russia. That was bad and one of the shows writers warning people to stop going to the actual jer noble site to take selfies. These people have to control the inner Kardashians. All right. You don't take picture at outfits, which are noble. I mean, although I have to admit that when I was a kid we used to say pitches at the cemetery all the time. We're italian. That's what we do. But this is a little different isn't it? Why, why vacation there at the cemetery? No at at. Well, that too, but because I lived in Brooklyn and I grew up in a tenement there was not a tree insight. I have to. That was where we went around with. Take me to the cemetery. So I kind of get get it. But I don't get her noble. No, I don't I don't. Why do you -cation there? Can't you still get some sort of poisonous listen to the first of all the show is terrific? And I urge all of you, if you haven't watched it to watch because I think a lot of us have forgotten, and I didn't know some of the details are portrayed on there. I, I suspect, you know, a lot of it is based on truth. It's, it's, it's actually, you know, something that, that might have been brought the Soviet Union down. It will such a cover up at the time. It's something where a lot of people died. A lot of people sacrificed, their lives in order to save others, and it's radioactive forget controlling your intercut, gashing control your inner moron. Yeah. And don't go there. I know. Well. Well. So meghan. Don't you watch that show? I did watch that show. I really liked it. I for whatever it's worth where five thousand cases of thyroid cancer that were caused by the Qin contamination afterward. Look, I had actually seen vice special where the device had gone to turn to hunt the beasts of journal because they're all these animals that still live there and actually, thriving because they don't live as long as humans. And I think it's the same way people go to hotels, where celebrities have died. There's like a sort of Macab instinct, and it is part of history. So I don't fault people for going, I fought the tone and tenor in which you're taking happy. Selfie is where people's have just horrible on every level. But given the opportunity, I don't know if I were in the Ukraine and someone said, do you wanna come for short don't yet? I probably would I would not be taking disrespectful sell fees to the people who had soft. They made him an Auschwitz also. Yes, it's not create. Yes, I don't think it's appropriate. I don't but was the cemetery appropriate cemeteries, different the cemetery of the relatives of their day Los more which, you know, obviously in Mexican culture you go and what we used to bring his military. That was real feeling petma- sandwiches. Did it too? Yeah. Jinyan photographs. I did. I did not take photographs. Is the type of photographs? Right. I mean there's, there's a woman with her but bear, but in a in a hangar at a trio. About your noble. Yes. It's half naked woman and a has Matt suit posing intern noble. That is ridiculous. We'll be right back. It's give a big in a cat way to get out of here and talk to those for fed tests ladies view until them all about our new show city on I know. Get cash back for shopping, you were already going to do racket in is a free member based loyalty program that lets you earn cashback on shopping at over twenty five hundred stores like Macy's best, buy, Nike, and more. Shop online and earn a percentage of every purchase you make up to forty percent cashback every three months members are paid by pay pal or another method sign up today at rackets in dot com. That's our A, K, U, T E, N dot com. Capital. One is building a better Bank. One that feels an accident nothing like a typical Bank. It's why the reimagining banking and building something completely different Capital, One. Cafe. They offer accounts with no fiercer minimums, they also offer one of the best savings rates in America, and you can open a Capital, One account from anywhere in five minutes, Capital, One, this is banking. Reimagined open an account today and experienced banking. Reimagined for yourself Capital One. What's in your wallet Capital, One NA member? FDIC. Kevin bacon has perfected his Boston accent, and city on a hill as a swagger, in sleazy, and celebrated FBI agent, just might type. Knows how to turn on the job watch. Bill a series and here comes trouble Cawley. Well, you could get rid of that husband, the US. Because he was Jackie roof f the I might if I call you the. No, I haven't rain Ramos. When I wanna talk to you about you got a kid Roach on your docket. He's an informative money's working at decent case heels was shot in Cup. Well, the allegedly shot a cough. You all made a lot of mauve. Why me? Call it a professional. Again, you basically have been on the show. How many times sixteen hundred. You look the same age. What's up with that finest plastic surgeons in? Working around the clock on speed dial plastic, I'm glad you mentioned the word because there's a war against plastic going on. And we need that we do. So I understand you. And kira. Kira Cedric is misses the MRs. And both of you are against plastic and do a lot to eliminated from your life, and, you know, dry and it's tough, it's tough it really is everywhere. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. I mean, there's a new study that where they found that the, the actual plastic particles are way way deeper in the ocean that we even expected there, it was supposed to sort of have been leveled off. And scientists found way more incidences of, of these living creatures that are just, you know, kind of it's still horrible. It was, so we're basically ingest. So, so some, some Canadian grocery store has come come up with this idea that, if you shop there, they, you live with one of these bags, one of them says adult video. And the end another one says, ward, -pointment. So the idea being humiliated into being better citizen bringing your own Levy the Canadians. I love the Canadians. Yeah. So what do you think of that idea? Bags gaming, you know. Yeah. I mean, maybe we'll maybe we'll get to appoint where just having the bag. We'll be Barrasso enough. You know what I mean, not having to put that on there, so about your show? They've been so many great crime jobs that take place in Boston have I'm looking at the mystic river, which you start the town departed this show takes place in the nineties. What is it about Boston? So do you think that these shows always emanate from well at the, the, the when you go to Boston as I this is probably the six or seven gig that I've had up there, even though it's a big east coast city? It feels like everybody knows everybody, you know, it's got this kind of like undercurrent of, of everything that's going on. Even historically, people are very, very aware of this city. There's a combination of tremendous amount of pride, but also history of kinda going through the back door to get to get things done. Corruption. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and east at eight has it kind of rowdy this. And, and, you know, I mean, I guess that just the fact that like a character like mine, everybody knows Jackie FBI agent. But everybody knows everybody knows his pass every, he's, he's working with the with the cops, he's working with the with the with the DA's office, he's working with the criminals you working with the mob. He's, he's. And, and it's kinda has that it's a big city with a small town. I met my fair share of FBI agents when I worked at the department of Justice. None quite like your character. And I saw this last night, and I loved, it, it was so much fun. And you say you, you loved playing him because he doesn't shut up ever never shuts up, but he's pretty politically incorrect to say the least. How do you think he would play in sort of the metoo era with that he would not? I was not thinking. I mean, every every scene that I have something offensive is coming out of my mouth. Yes, I'm doing something despicable or or you doing drugs or, or drinking or philandering, or hurting the people that I love, you know, that's politics. To get political, but there are going to be people that are going to look at this, and this is up to you up to me and say, well, you know, Jackie he just tells it like it is. That I can see that it's that kind of, of a character, but he has a good side, doesn't they? I'm not sure. So much to me about having a good side as it is. He's a human being and I don't like the play whatever we consider as bad guys. I don't wanna play them in a monstrous kind of way because to me, the fact that a person like Jackie exists, and can be for instance so casually. Racist in his language is a much scarier notion. Then if you make him into a monster, you know, he's a he's a real. That's he's a I wanted to make him feel like a real person. Someone you would know. Well, you and your wife care have been married for thirty years, which is incredible. Baby. You're always. Hashtag marriage goals for everyone and you guys putt. Long time ago. But you put the cutest duet on Instagram. We want to show a clip. No. Live some. To learn them, by the way, I live. Live. Nepal. You might get in trouble. Well, maybe they'll get paid Nick. But talking about memories everybody remembers your lose. I'm looking at you, and I'm like. I love that movie. So did they knew the song has been playing? I'm about to ask you to do that, Dan, I won't be doing that. But athlete you. Your first iconic role was in animal house. There was yeah. That was ever did this. Oh, oh, good. That kid grew up to be Jack for new planes. To work with John Belushi at great amid John was amazing. He was such a generous and and Mormon funny guy, and he was actually flying back and forth, because he was on SNL while we were doing the show. So he was getting on a plane, and I guess, doing maybe Thursday to Sunday on SNL jumping on the plane on Sunday and coming out to Eugene, Oregon of all places. That's what we shot animal how, so the yet a lot of his work cut out for it. But he was he was fantastic. You probably had no idea that you were going to be starting your career in this iconic film. I really did not. And I didn't know when we have not been compared to I have to say, you know, when you're working on something, I mean, maybe think to yourself. Well, hope it's icon. No. Not really. Not really. I was just I just stood on the set every day and just was like, oh, I believe, I can't believe what I'm saying here. Do you still feel that way about your career? I do good for you. I don't think it's according to the second. Given. So nice to again. Welcome here. Kevin bacon city on a hill premiers this Sunday night on Showtime. We'll be right back. If Billy quarter here and I hope you'll check out the new season of post up next and the category ease you real? Porter knows how to captivate an audience. He made a powerful statement at Sunday night's Tony awards and he's making another one on the second season of the groundbreaking series pose take a look. 'cause everyone in this room is deserving of love. Don't understand me. Everyone in this room. People. Tonight. You love being Nath. This bowl thorn. Pass. In southern? No about operation. So I wore the. Real. Support. Can I ask? Let's he. Put the glass. Well, you just walked out to you song, by the way, call yourself, which drops today. Midnight all the platform coke it. I have to tell you I'm such a fan and I'm such a fashion fan because you have been killing it. Thank you. Well you have been killing it in the fashion game. I there was the Oscars you were that with a Golden Globe. This was one of my favorite look at. Could you hiding under this? Men that the clothing sometimes is so boring. And then and then I saw. Right. Right. Always always. And then I saw this Christian Syria. No, then there was the met gala, everyone remembers the entrance. You slate at the Tonys you were wearing the curtains from. Who areas and the good one, I'm just just kill it every day and that you work. Thank you. They welcome. It's been something that's really been. I've always been a fashion person. I feel like you know, as artists, we get to be a part of changing the apart of change changing the structure of people's hearts and minds, and we can do it through everything. And with me, the clothes have a statement close means something, I'm going to open up conversations, you know, it's like women wearing pants. It's not a problem anymore. They grant to be, but it's not a problem, we moved through that, because pants are strong. They're considered strong. They're considered powerful. They are associated with the patriarchy. However, when a man wears a dress, very often. People are disgusted. So what does that say they order? We say, hey, thank you. Yeah, I'm done doing that. I'm done with that. I'm a man who wants to wear a dress. And when I wanna wear when I'm gonna. Yeah. And can you, you know, the moment that I owned the totality of who I am by hitting into that character putting on those booth? Right. Those heels made me feel the most grounded and the, the most powerful that I've ever felt in my life. I'm not going back. The other night kings. Gordon. He asked you to sing something off camera. Yes. And then they were they were doing this karaoke thing in between commercials. And I had no idea what was happening because I've been backstage. Audience participation. How to get young. Anyway, we have a clip of. So let's why. Jury. Baby. So much fun. He called me, he called me up. And he said, come do this thing. And I thought it was just going to be like a blurb here because I hadn't seen it through the night in the house. And you know turned him if you watch it further I get up on the stage, you know. Everybody was, like, turn to the man nicely. After you thing the whole. So we'll just the second season is beginning. You play pray. Tell 'em see in the eighties nineties world of transgender in the ballroom world. Why is it important to tell the story now? I think that I know that those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it. We're in the middle of a crossroads in our country in the world in general. You know, democracy is at stake. People's rights. People's humanity continues to be up for legislation which is ridiculous. We've seen this before I came out in nineteen eighty-five. We went straight to the front lines to fight for our lives. I know what this looks like I'm an activist. I know what it looks like I've seen it before. And so what, what we do once again, as artists, we get to in a creative way. Pull people in to these stories, pull people into these journeys these things that happened in the past that relate to what's happening right now. You're like you're seeing it again. I am saying it again. Like it is love always wins. Love always did win. It might take time. But we gotta be patient. You know, stand on the shoulders of flames. I know what it looks like. I know what that is love still always went. We might not be witching when we make it to the mountaintop, but we're gonna get there. People like to talk about inclusiveness and the entertainment industry. But we know that the has always I always been the case for you and that you were actually passed over for a few roles before you got pose. That's the prize just given that you were so successful on Broadway. Do you think that we're making waves or think that we've come a long way, you know, just in terms of inclusivity in terms of? Somebody else's story being told outside of SIS white men. We have a long way to go. You know, it's really thrilling. I'm so grateful that I live to see this day that pose exists on television that we have a space for that kind of representation, if I had that kind of representation as a little black kid growing up. Can you imagine like it's just you know, we're all valid? We're all humid were all valid. We don't have to agree, right? That what I love about this show. Somebody. Yeah it's not about acceptance. I don't need your acceptance. I don't need your tolerance. But what I require is you're respecting demand is. While you are here to stay. Yeah. Hang ho have opened up for so many people, thank you. Thank you for that. Make you. Our thanks to his new single love yourself is available right now. And see him. I post Tuesday nights, I'm FX. We'll be right back. Next new year deals bringing the weekend vibes on feel Good Friday. We partnered with enders, or at least half off awesome items that give you another reason to TGIF. Friday, making sure your weekend starts off right. Because we partner with vendors to offer at least half of items guaranteed to put a smile on your face. My friend, lifestyle expert, Greta mon- hands here to show off, but it's only while supplies last. So let's get shot. And so the field is Sonny altera here bedding. It's woven with certified organic cotton. It's eco-friendly in sustainable production, so, you know, when you look on Instagram and you see those gorgeous bad, you want to dive into well, now that's our bet. Yes, I've got to hooked up three options. 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Hour 2: 1/16/19

The Paul Finebaum Show

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Hour 2: 1/16/19

"The Paul finebaum show podcast is brought to you by the new Capital One saver card. Earn four percent cashback on dining and entertainment two percent on grocery stores and one percent on all other purchases. What's in your wallet? The pride passion, then pageantry of college football leaves here. This is the Paul finebaum show. Our to podcast. Back to the second hour. Good. I our our C Slocum the new one of the newest members of the college football playoff committee joined us if you missed the beginning of the show, the big story. There was Jalen hurts. We had jig Trotter on from Oklahoma. Which would tell you where Jalen hurts is ending up. He is going to the university of Oklahoma play for Lincoln rally and try to be the third straight quarterback there transferred to as well to win the Heisman Trophy under Lincoln Riley, more phone calls at eight five five to four two seven two eight five Monday night, we spent a lot of time talking about Clemson going to the White House. We will have Christine Brennan on shortly. She is a USA today columnist who didn't like what happened there. She said it broke with tradition. We'll let her explain shortly. Frank is up next in Connecticut. Hello, frank. All are you today? We are doing. Well. Thank you. Great full. Thanks for taking my call. First of all, this is my first time calling in a long time listener, I think you and your staff to a tremendous. Thank you, very much great to have you on thankful. Two quick comments. If I may first of all, obviously, you're going to hear a lot this week about the kudos to to Jalen hurts as a forty plus year high school in college football coach, you know, wish him nothing, but the best the Oklahoma's not only getting an outstanding quarterback to getting an outstanding person as well. I think that benefits everybody. My second is is that Clemson visit to the White House. You know, maybe because I've been in athletic so long Paul. I I really felt very sorry for the way those that tire program that the way the program, but the clip program was cheated at the White House or treated, I should say I lost a lot of teams get celebrated with the usual, pomp and ceremony, and you know, the red card. Being thrown out there on the lighthouse, and I just felt very badly. Well, let me ask you coach. What what didn't you like, I guess, you know, we all became used to the the the high profile state dinners, and and all the kudos to go with it. That's part of the experience of visiting the White House, and it is part of tradition. I think between the bottom line was I think they really were points for the president's agenda. You know? I mean, those kids deserve better than that. Well, I think you will agree with what Christine Brennan is going to tell us here in few minutes. She she she she found that primarily the president broke with tradition. And I say this to you normally. College football programs. Are again depends on the time of the year. This is the earliest teams ever been there. So you try to schedule it for spring. You can go outside rose garden so much prettier scene. And and even the state the the the East Room or the state dining room where the food was served, but I'll let her explain it's been interpreted, many, many different ways. But, but I appreciate your comments very very much. Well, thanks. Appreciate if taking my call, and I'll continue to watch it roll tide. You got a great to hear from you a lot of controversy over that. We we we had fun with it. The other night. We we do not ever care to go down a political road. I believe very strongly that if the president invite you to the White House, you go you can disagree all you want. But this this was a celebration. It wasn't a political conversation. Rebecca is up next. Rebecca, thank you. And good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. I tried to call yesterday. And I couldn't get through. I would really outraged at the colors that were criticized you, I must be dancing something because I have never never thought that you criticizing Alabama. And in Alabama fan, and I'm Paul Bunn bomb thing. And yes, and thank you for what what you do for sports. And I just can't understand. What what they were seen to get so outraged with you. I I I don't understand it. Rebecca, this may be awkward for me to try to explain why people are being critical of me. But I'll give it a shot. I think I think Alabama fans, and you know, probably that I lived in that state for many many years, I still consider it my home, even though I don't have a residents. They're they're they're upset, and they hear things some some some of them here things the way they they want to hear things I don't take it personally. I mean became a little overwhelming last night. But it's not going to last. I think I think Nick Sabin isn't going to be deterred by this for long. And I think as soon as he gets his staff in order, which he will shortly. The story and the page will change and turn. Well, I was just variance upset and ours. Really embarrassed that some of the callers and they're coming and yes, we did. He said Yang. But it certainly wasn't gerbil. Well, yeah, I understand that. It's just that's just that's what happens, and, you know, I think I have to be cognizant of fans feelings, and I guess if I didn't understand the Alabama fans as as as well as I do would probably be more upset, but but I really appreciate what you said though, that means a lot to me. Well, you well, I mean you deserve that. And that Jalen transferring I just wish him the very best. Thank he really has been created to Bama, and he really helped us out a lot. And so I just wish him all kinds of love. Well, thank you. Great to hear from you. And hope pope will call again, Joe Joan is up next in Tennessee. Pau other on the first time caller way. And I I love your show. I agree with miss Rebecca from yesterday, you were very much disrespected on the television yesterday, but my phone call has really nothing to do with football. It has to do with the lady balls basketball and the saddening. Thing that they're going through with three straight losses, and it the worst they've been I think it's not paying eighty six. I would just like to get your info on what you think needs to happen. 'cause if it was football and the records are being a lot that they would already have gotten rid of the coach. And I know that miss Pat was hard to replace because she was wonderful and wonderful with the community. But sometimes we have to step back and look at the programs and reevaluate though, I was just wanting to kind of get your opinion on that. And. Follow that program, very closely. And I know coach Warlick well known her a long time. And and I think these are these are decisions you do have to evaluate. You cannot am I giving you a line here. That's not how I work. You can't evaluate in mid season. But you can begin to digest the information. And I'm sure coach fomer and others up. There are concerned. I mean, I thought coach Warlick was probably fortunate to survive last year because of the way things have gone, I think the year before it ended better. And and she got a reprieve, but but there is a lot of tension up there. And to me Tennessee is a program that should be playing for championships every year. There's there's no excuse. I mean, the support of that basketball program. I is unparalleled and forget the Detroit. Bishen in history. We all know about that. So you either get the job done. Or you don't. And if you don't and you face face the music very loudly. I totally agree. And I agree the tradition stand strong, and it always has. But there's also a winning tradition there. And we've getting the five star recruits that she get. I think she I think because I I've talked to Holly often when we see her. I think she's continued to recruit at a very high level. Yes. You have to develop that talent and you have to deliver. And they're you know, listen doesn't matter whether we like it or not everyone likes her. That's not those are things you say early on in a career when you're trying to give somebody a chance to develop. But but I think she's facing a very critical six weeks here. Coli agree. And like you said, she's very lockable person. And she did a great job to step in and take miss pets place. But sometimes we have to do what's best for the. I would say I've I've I've I've covered the end of great coaching careers. I don't know if there has ever been a more challenging situation, especially because of the closeness the way she helped Pat her final year, but but that those those days are have slipped away. And it's it's it's it's her program. Now, thank you, very very much Christine. Brennan will join us next. She has had a some things to say about what happened Monday night at the White House. If you missed her USA today column, we will talk about it. Coming up next to listening to Paul finebaum show podcast. Glad you're here. And we covered it live here. Monday night on the program the ceremony at the White House with with Clemson almost Alabama, by the way, and we'll talk a little bit about that in a few minutes, so Christine Brennan will be joining us shortly. So we get her locked in. We will go to that. But her column today in USA today under the. Heading fast food shouldn't be why we're discussing clemson's visit to Trump's White House. She talks about a number of things in that article not only the team being used as a problem, but she questioned why Trump President Trump did not offer the same ability to to serve those who are not being paid. And also question why women women's teams have not been to the White House in fourteen months? Always a great pleasure to welcome Christine. Brennan to the show Christine good afternoon. And so so nice of you to make time for us. How? My pleasure as always no, thanks very much. Great to be on your show. So let's get right to it. I briefly describe what was in your column for those who didn't see it. But I'll leave the rest of you, you you seem you feel very strongly about what we witnessed Monday night. Well, it's funny because I heard about it, and I saw it in first of all night, and then dinnertime, and of course, the all the stories that I know all your listeners know Paula about the fast food and the people like that or didn't like that. And they keep fun of it, the memes the fast food, and I'm thinking to myself, I've covered dozens of these I've been in Washington since nineteen Eighty-four covered them, many many what how fortunate I should be able to go to the White House. This many times to cover these events. Whether it'd be pro teams like the Dallas Cowboys, whether it'd be uconn women's basketball, whether it be our Olympic teams over and over again, I've covered all those and they're always in the morning or early afternoon or mid afternoon. There's never dinner never food. I don't remember food at all which by the way, this is all in the column that folks can find. Easily obviously online or my website, or or on Twitter, Facebook, whatever. And so that was what my first thought was why is there even talk of food because food is I've never seen food unless maybe there was punching cookies, right? So then my office might when my editors got in touch yesterday and asked what I liked right about this. And I said, well sure, I've covered so many of these I've I've I've really do feel like I know what's going on with White House the sports Ramones. And so that was really the Genesis of it. And then I have two questions, you know, what was the rush as, you know, Clemson won the the national title on Monday, and we could go and what nine days ago, and then seven days later, literally a week later. They're already in the White House that has to be a world record falling under getting a team to the White House. I never seen anything quite that bad. And they and why why what's the rush? Most teams. It's you know, it's several months, springtime, whatever what's the rush. And as a columnist. I again, ask the question did Trump. Hurry. Clinton into the White House a week after the niche. Why did they do it? If he really that lonely. Remember how he talked about? How lonely is during the shutdown, which of course, he said he was proud to have orchestrated. That's now crossing eight hundred thousand Americans their their paychecks and many many more family members and others that are that they would be, you know, buying food or whatever they'd be doing that. They're they can't do. So our economy is affected, of course. And in ways big and small is or so desperate for a photo op with football players or was this a diversion. You know, and I'm asking these questions, so I continued on from there, and why did comes and fall for why didn't comes in a fish politics. Say, you know, thanks, Mr President, we'd love to come. Because of course, you want him to come to the White House, but we'll wait until the shutdown is taken care of. And and it's not political or couldn't even be construed as politically. I am shocked that the Clemson university officials president on down didn't see that for what it was. And just say, we'll come. We'll come back at a better time when when everything is taken care of in our fellow Americans have their paychecks again. Christine. I haven't covered as many as you. But but I'm pretty familiar with with teams going to the White House. I believe Alabama last year was either in late March or April they've been as late as mid April for rose garden ceremonies. One other part of this. I know you wrote about it. But the fast food connection that that seemed to be the theme of the night. How did you interpret that? That was funny. I, you know, I actually I know there are people who are who are a gas. You know, how can you have big Macs, and and quarter pounders, and and Wendy's singles doubles and triples on on gorgeous White House serving trades right in the candelabra being lighted by the worker there. And and you know, all those things that one didn't bug me as much I it it looks kinda cool. And of course, President Trump paid for the city paid for it. You know, unbelievable, dad journalistically, then he said he paid for it. I have no idea if you did or did. But somebody did. And but you said he did so fine. He did. And so that part didn't bother me at all. I mean, I I try to eat less far less Beth food than I used to. I'm sure you do as well. But I'm I'm overseas. Especially a Big Mac is you know, just the best. So I that as I said in my lead of my. Column fast food should be the least of Arkansas, and you know, that's another point that I think is worth bringing up is. You know, if he's really if Trump really is into buying food as he said he did did with this. What goes to three thousand dollars, according to the post Washington Post? Why isn't he vying meals for the people who really need them, you know, the government workers who continue to go without paychecks. Good like the secret service members who keep them say, maybe he is. But I think if knowing Trump reply the hearing about it if he were. Another part of it that I think you raise the point about we're women's teams you said fourteen months ago. A number of teams were honored the same day. That's not unusual as you know. But. Some of the men's teams, I believe North Carolina chose not to go or we know about the warriors there the NBA teams. But explain more about this disconnect in your mind between the president and and women's teams. Well, the facts speak for themselves, and my colleague, Tom sad at USA today actually did the research on this. And and sent the the whole list of everyone had been there, and I just went through. And I I didn't I remembered some like you, and I think again a lot of your listeners will remember, oh this team didn't wanna come this team did show up. The eagles were disinvited. Apparently, you know, we've heard the story they've be his anything Donald Trump does is the president is big news. That's that's no news and at not different from any other president. And and because he has decided to have sports, you know, center for him as a prop or as a place where he can make points as in like the. Obama Senate race where then he used the infamous SOB line and ratchet up again, the whole kneeling Colin Kaepernick thing, it would then basically, you know, it was more of it was done. And so, but when I looked at time fans reporting, and I quickly gave a look and looked at the teams that have won the national championship women's team. But you know, the NBA women's basketball may have been another one or two and they were not there. And I realized there's literally been no women's teams at the White House in fourteen months, except if you count the women who showed up as part of what was a much depleted US twenty eighteen Olympic Winter Olympic delegation. Many many of the US Olympians decided not to show up because of their disdain for the president. They did a that workdays and and charitable days around DC instead, and I I've covered those Olympic visit since from late eighties early nineties. I've never ever seen so many athletes not wanna be at the White House which were. Was remarkable in another itself. But other than that you've had no women athletes. So, you know, I it's just a point, you know, just Trump to why why why not and it was fourteen months ago, November twenty seventeen when he did have eighteen teams there which were men's and women's teams, and I have seen that even George W Bush. I was there when I'm a northwestern alum as you know, and north western women's lacrosse at won several national titles in a row and continue to win them. And so I was there and watched northwestern, and I watched little George W Bush go from from one set of bleachers to the next pretty graduating, northwestern lacrosse and then track and field champion men's and women's cross country, men's and women's and and soccer, men's and women's and they were all set up in the East Room was a beautiful thing. Actually. So I do this. And and maybe Donald Trump will get back to doing it. I hope he does because women athletes are very important in this. Country, of course. And but as of fourteen months, you know, women athletes, you know, women's teams other than the women from the US Olympic team Christine Brennan her column in USA today, certainly worth your time. If you if you want to learn more about her her feelings about this fast food shouldn't shouldn't be why we're discussing clemson's visit to the White House in the end Christine after observing hearing reaction researching this. Your conclusion about why on Monday night. What was it? Yeah. Why why did they why did they do it? Yeah. Well, again, I mean like, you, you know, I love college football this nothing to do with the against plants and or against a visit to celebrate there that incredible victory nothing to do with that. But Donald Trump. By definition you enter into his world. And then he will take it from there. You know, Paul other presidents have done that too. But they tend to and I I'm not this is nothing to do with democrat or Republican. I think as you know, my dad was Mr. Republican and in north west Ohio and George Herbert Walker Bush. I wrote about him when he passed away. I mean, I knew him well because of my dad I grew up in a Republican House though. So this kind of liberal Democrat never have been. But you know, I think that most president that I've covered and I've got a few again so lucky and fortunate to be able to do that they've taken the good from sports Ronald Reagan. I watched him throw a pass to Ricky Sanders after Washington came back winning the Super Bowl Joe Gibbs his team, though, I covered that team eighty seven and then the January eight Super Bowl, and it was a delight George Herbert Walker Bush Bill Clinton Brock Obama, George W Bush all of them that I saw they reveled in. It and took the good out of it Donald Trump. We know has has done a little bit of boat, and you are a photo op with Donald Trump and at this time, and I I'm in DC. So maybe I'm more of ware of it. But everyone knows someone who works in government who coming trouble right now, Donald Trump again said he was proud to orchestrate the shutdown. Why if you're Clemson wouldn't you just pick another time? So I wish they'd done it. It's their call, of course, free country. They can do whatever they want and they did. But obviously, the journalists pointing out some of the things that I I noticed and I saw and and having covered a few of these I felt it was worthy of at least one column a out of hundreds that I will ride over the next year or so. We'll offered anyone who did not see your column when President Bush passed away. It was extraordinarily just, you know, talking about what he said to you about your own dad. It was quite quite quite fascinating. Thank you. Well, he was he said again test. Oh three, and he was of course, my own personal title nine on the eldest of four kids, and he got into sports and encouraged me when no other dad in my neighborhood was encouraging daughter. How lucky I was and yeah of George Herbert Walker. Bush knew my dad. Well, my dad did a lot of work with him and Ohio vice-chairman Ohio and eighty eight during the his Bush's successful presidential campaign. And you know, you my dad passed away, of course, with the Ryder Cup in oh eight and at the hall in Louisville, and you know, your dad, I miss only it was quite a guy. And of course, that was my kicker on George Herbert Walker Bush himself what you quite a guy. And so how lucky am I too had those moments, and, you know, have the Dan Nelson to have that interaction with a great president. So thanks for letting me tell that story, Paul and appreciate that, always Christine. Thanks for coming on always great to catch up you too happy new year to you and all your listeners and and look forward to talking about happy. Good news in college sports in college football soon. We're four Christine Brennan. Thank you. Thanks. I'll take Christine Brennan joining us from USA today. We'll get some reaction to that. When we come back. You're listening to about Paul finebaum show podcast. Welcome back to the program. Again, big story today that we covered early on. And that was the Jalen hurts is. Officially transferring to Oklahoma more on that a little bit later on. Let's get some phone calls here at eight five five two four two seven two eight five Hal is in Mississippi. Welcome to our program. How? Thanks, paul. Enjoy your shows actually have meal. Thank you. After hearing, the Clemson, whatever you wanna call it. I had something I wanted to share that in two thousand and nine I have a son that was a member of the you Tigers national champion baseball team. Oh, well, they were invited to the White House in prison. Obama was in office thin anyway, when I got the how to the White House he didn't have time to see him. So they did not get to meet with the president. Well, did you hearing you that nine years ago? I never heard that story. Now, it's kind of what I mean voted for President Trump not crazy there. He does. But that being said, it's just amazing. How in this was kind of a fiasco? I agree that you know, the. I think the one point that would be worth making. I do think they were there rather early. My my own theory on that is that you have Lindsey Graham who's probably Trump's closest friend is from South Carolina and Clemson fan you, Mick Mulvaney. The chief of staff who was a former South Carolina congressman, I don't know whether I'm just throwing that up in the air. I've never heard of anyone of any team being there that quickly, but but you have to understand Donald Trump. I mean, I mean, I thought the fast food part of it was pretty funny. I had no problem with it. Trump naturally made it about himself. But but then again, I think we probably used to that by now are only. Your deal did Christine Brennan said about never remembering being a a meal, you know, that went along with it. As far as this deal is concerned. I don't think there was a meal. In course, they wanted to baseball championship, gene. And I think it was. Yeah. I mean, the late October November before they went to the wire there occasionally based on what I know there may be cookies and punch. But no, this is the first time I can remember anything quite like this. But hey, listen, Clemson won all these people acting like they were disrespected they have been on every late night talk show in America. While the hosts have been attacking the president. They've been on every morning show. It's wednesday. We're still talking about it. That's good for business. If you're if you're Devo swinging all right in when the when you did see members of the team, they were all smile and laugh. And they had a great time. And by the way. I I'm not gonna been to. I've been fortunate to been to the White House a number of times, I've never been there yet. When it wasn't a big deal for me. And I'm a nobody compared to being on about being honored by the president. No doubt. No doubt. That was counted with you know, my picture taking with Joe Biden. And that's okay. But he wasn't the prison states. No, it's close. So. Thank you very much. We never got to heartbeat. No. I mean, listen people. I wanna make it clear we had Christine on to talk about her column. Not to make a political statement, Darryl is up next Daryl. Go right ahead. She may have made one that wasn't the intended. You know, what I I'm just gonna be straight up where you okay, I am sick and tired of people hating my president. I really am. I think it's absolutely ridiculous. That people would hate it Obama onell Obama is they would be considered a racist. Okay. I mean, he is our president. I've just building down while it's something that he wanted only something he said, it can't be no worse than a volunteer. It's not gonna hurt the build it. Most of the betters. I've told to won't it most of the people I've talked to won't it. I'll just do it. You know, what I don't have anything about Donald Trump does what he wants to do solid. Trump. Donald Trump is bucket the system because the systems are good ovoid club. It always has been at Washington. And now he's not playing that game. We still do doing bad for the American people. Okay. And when I see all these these gas stations out here is immigrants working in it. We got was very contain giant. Can't wait Darrow. Listen, you're entitled to say whatever you want. But can we keep this within the the the the lines of this highway? Okay. I won't. One I'll play she she's been America needs being immigration. You can't sell the fed to Hillary Clinton low. Okay. You know, route it's done. Okay. I hope Trump gets elected number four years. I really I think he will receive anything to say that doesn't involve the presidential politics. Visit visit coordinator, you know, where you want. I'll give you some yellow pages and you can start looking. What about Jay her sewing overhaul? I think is great. Don't you? I well, tend ideas. Okay. If your quarterback, and you wanna pad your status with if you know to try them fail, we'll conference would you want to go to? That's where I would go there. No defense. Okay. I mean, absolutely. But he probably wanted to go there because he favors, you know. I was working. He knows Alabama. Can't be Clemson. I'm so, you know, we go there. Maybe maybe they can't be Clemson debut. Tapie Alabama not as Basheer anyway. Right. You know what? Austin forty four sixteen San rival Mattel that tiger. We the tad. Well, well, thanks, there is in New Mexico. Hello, julie. Good afternoon. Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my call for time. Caller. Thank you. Listen. I just had a comment about that journalist you had discussing Clinton the quicksand football team based in the White House. The only thing that I feel like I learned from her is that she has great disdain saved for the president. And I just don't think that that's appropriate. You know, we're. I'm glad that the president had him there. And I think it says something that he hasn't there. So quickly. Maybe it's Kofi has friends that are big fans but good for Clemson good for him. And I think it's awesome. That the president. Went out and purchase food for him. I just think it was. I just think it was special, and I don't like to see it. Thank you very much for the call. I do appreciate it. A Bill is in Mississippi. Hey, bill. Hey, follow Goblets into you for years and years yours on I used to read your column. Thank you like what you say. And what you do. But you just have friend, Tom, no matter how good you do. Not get you going get blamed for it. So. But in a really do appreciate. And I thank you. Call a lot of crap and she couldn't get from a lot of different people most Alabama fan. So look way got to to the worst town. I don't know what else anybody could say. So thank you so much. Thank you Bill. I really thank you so much for saying that JT is up next in Florida. Hello, J T. Hey, how are you doing today? Thanks very much for taking my call. Thank you. Vaud I'd like to say roll tide out there, and I don't blame you for Alabama clip. So okay. I I wanted to talk about the the gift that you had on for about ten minutes. Christine. What what was her last name Brennan? Pristine. Yes, miss Brennan. You know, it seem like her whole purpose to being on the shows just politics because she mentioned Trump in a negative way in the wall in the shutdown at least five times. And and I don't understand what the whole point of. That was Clint Clemson was invited the White House and probably so early because if it would have been drug out, two more months the fake news out. There would have would have tried to make it where Clemson couldn't a win because it, publicity and in it's gonna affect recruiting. So if you wanted Clemson to go, and and visit with the president had to be done and it had to be done fast. Yeah. I I don't know why listen for we. I thought it was great. I had. No and doesn't have anything to do with politics. Just to me. It was it was a fun event. And the president am pretty sure Donald Trump came up with that on his own because the the the idea of the fast food to me just made it more entertaining for that. You got to think of it. It's not who who's four is. It's not for the fan for the players. I it and by the way, thanks for the call. We were up against a break. But I'm not really sure if I could offer a political opinion how it really mattered to Donald Trump public public opinion Ray rankings the way things are going right now with the shutdown. He did what he apparently wanted to do. Which is how he runs the government. We'll take it for listening to the Paul finebaum show podcast. Welcome back. Glad you're with us. What's grab some more calls Earl in Memphis is up next. How are you Earl I'm doing well? How are you doing quite well? Thank you. Damn kind of forgot what I was going to talk about. But 'cause young women to politics and glad you didn't do politics. But mccutchen is is Dan dockage coming on the show. You'll be on in about two hours. Okay. I've got three questions for him. Okay. Sure. Is he a better code? Better analyst. Or better radio of and I wanna know. You know, tell you what her I I've been on his radio show. He's quite good on the radio. Hey, thank you very much for the call. I'm in is up next. I mean, go right ahead. Hey, good afternoon. Pro he, you know, you're not over talking yesterday. We kind of touched on this. I I don't normally follow those teams go into the White House, but yours hadn't happened to be on your show yesterday. So I I kind of paid a little bit of attention. And you're not talked about this. He. The problem. I have with the man he seems to interject himself into everything and the sacrifices that he personally made. So others can have a moment of honor. And while he was at living thought he stepped all over himself. But when he went to the script, I thought he did pretty good because those were the facts, and that's why they were there. And he he didn't see me any comfortable it all reading them. Like, you wouldn't here. The president is not like the read from a teleprompter or script. He's he's you know, he he had Levy show because he's he's an entertainer. Yeah. That's exactly right. He talks whether he has sex or anything, he talks, and I didn't I don't particularly care for the man personally is president, and I can respect that office. I did not vote for him. I don't see a lot of things his way. But he's just such a hard guy to live and in this because it's all about and I'll tell you this. You may have heard me say this many many. Years ago. I happened to be at a small dinner party with him. And he when you're sitting across the table from from him, he can be one of the most engaging people he may be among the most engaging people I've ever met. Now, this was considerably before he got in the politics haven't seen him since. But anyway, we're up against a break. More to come and more on the Jalen hurts transferred to Oklahoma in case. You're just getting in your car or putting on the TV. We'll be right back. Today.

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Tom Luce - Education, Opportunity, and Civil Rights

The Strategerist

49:43 min | 5 months ago

Tom Luce - Education, Opportunity, and Civil Rights

"Tom Loses. Long career has had quite a few twists and turns from the private sector as a lawyer working with Ross Perot too key roles in Texas government to a fervent education policymaker in the George, W Bush Administration, and the nonprofit sector as founder of organizations like the National Math and science initiative, and now Texas twenty thirty six, both each turn. He has stayed committed to a core belief that all Americans deserve opportunities brought through education. Unfortunately, it's still too often the. That our kids don't get sick head. Start than I got and that's not right. That's not fair competition I just became convinced that. Not, only was it. Elements have injustice. But it wasn't good for our state. One good friend, country and our economic system which I'm great Belabor. It was not gonNa work if we did not have equal opportunity for everybody. We'll talk about education and opportunity in today's turbulent world and Tom takes us down memory lane, sharing stories like when he carried one of the original copies of the Magna Carta across the Atlantic, as part of his carry on luggage and the Social Faux Pas. He committed the first time he met George H W. Bush I'm Andrew Kaufman and this. Is this your teacher? It's presented by the George Bush Presidential Center Our conversation today is broken up into two parts first. We talked with Tom in person at the Bush Center. Not long before we shut down to slow the spread of covid nineteen. We then recently gave him a call to get an update on our conversation. which you'll hear is the second part of this episode. First off welcome to Kevin Sullivan. Senior adviser at the Bush Center and former White House communications director who is making his co hosting. On the strategic today, so it's about time we may time for us. Hey, thanks for having me looking forward to it and our guest today is Tom Loose. Give me my the introduction is GonNa take a second. He's a difficult mant to introduce if in that. If you don't listen enough of the roles and awards, you don't really get a sense for the impact. He's made, but if we listened to molly, be here all day, so a few started out as an attorney and founding managing partner in Houston. Loose the Dallas Morning News called him a quote education visionary who worked in the Bush administration as Assistant Secretary. Secretary of Education and in multiple five actually believe every five. That's correct Texas. Governor Administration's five governors. He's found in major philanthropic initiatives like just for kids. The National Center for Educational Accountability National Math and Science Initiative Meadows Health Policy Institute and most recently Texas Twenty thirty six, which is hiding nonpartisan ideas and solutions to make our great state better. He's a professor having tied a little school called Harvard also right here on Smu campus, and he won the Lens Award Recognizing Enduring Civic or humanitarian efforts benefiting. Dallas we're just skimming the surface, so Tom, thank you for joining us. He must have some amazing stories to tell. Well I. Don't know about that, but I've been blessed to be morning raised in Texas and. At a great time in the history of our state, I've just been very blessed time. We'll get to Texas twenty thirty six and a few minutes, which is at your most recent big big challenge you've taken on, but first I'd like to talk about your journey both professionally and personally you had really just quite a ride with what's interesting about it. Is that a multiple occasions you stepped away from your law practice, or for whatever you're doing to take on a new public service initiative, and so let's start with that. I mean why. Well filled in enormous sense of family, a an understanding of how blessed I had been to have been raised. At the time I was in the way I was. And how many people were factors in my life that change the trajectory of my life, and it was just really important to me to pay that back in the number of people intervened in my life were just it was amazing. I was raised about single mother. My follow was an alcoholic didn't really live at home that was back when there wasn't even a phrase single parent mothers. And most of the households were husband and wife, and but yet at various points in time, various men appeared in my life whether basketball coaches are guy. Medic College Neider. This wonderful story I went to college line in my in my high school. My aspiration was to go to Alpine State College on a scholarship and played baseball, and I met a young dashing Gabon, the name of Dick Bass who was a graduate from Yale. I was only only appeared that line at the Yale booth and he said you ought to go to jail. I didn't know Yale from Secombe and. He said. No you're a Yale Man. And he said I'M GONNA. Get you in jail and you need. And he started sending me books, and of course you didn't get me yeah I, didn't have grace. Go Yale but all of a sudden my horizons were were Played for basketball coach, who said distort on my team? You gotta be average loves the C.. Student I said. Why do we have to do that at our district opponent and he said well. If you're not smart enough to make a baby, you'll have turnovers on what is rationale was, but I made a be you know so so I could play basketball, and so just throughout my life, various people intervened in my life, and when I got ready to go to college, I didn't have the funds to go to college at Gerber. Businessmen got together and ranch me get a scholarship to them. I on a play. Basketball, so I went to College Dick. Bass reappeared in my life and enabled meet a work through I went to Smu Undergrad and law school, but I had to work. Forty hours a week to pay for my education PAM remarried when I was nineteen so I'd worked my way through college and Law. School go night, law school, and just at all stages of life, people were intervening and giving me a leg up and now I was. Profoundly struck by later in the eighties. thanks to my client Ross Perot. I was given the opportunity to travel the state. Learn about public school education for the majority of kids and I saw it. Millions of kids had not gotten same opportunity that I'd gotten and not just convicted me that I've been extraordinarily blast. How did those modest beginnings? You know you've talked publicly in the past that your mom had some mental health issues today she was hard. Can raising you and your sister right? Law School at night. This didn't come easily for you. How did that? I mentioned the people who intervene to to lend a helping hand. But how did those beginnings that you had play into your pursuit of public service? Well, I think it really did in a sense that are head to I. Guess Out of necessity. Develop it worth it work ethic. And I just became A. Understood how many people were helping me and second of all? I don't know where it came from, but I've always had a great interest, history and political scientist. Tell the summer. It sound like such a Geek but when I was in middle school, I read Winston Churchill's World War Two memoirs, and I was just blown away by you know his writing skilled and the stories he was telling, and I always had a sense of you know what was happening in the world, and that made a big impact on me and then I. I, think a- through that I began to understand. You know I think when you're young. You kind of think well. Gee, all this happened because I was young and smart, and all that stuff, but I was really riding a notion that other people created from a I've tried to kill my grandsons. The day I was born. The German troops marched into Paris and I. I wish to to ask my mother. What in the world was she thinking? My future would be like and I wouldn't know enough to know that you know. Maine's people lost their lives preserving freedom and democracy for me and you know so. What. What could I do to at least try to approach paying that back for canal, so you had an interest in history had an interest in politics and he'd hoped the people who need today they look at you as a policy trapped in the in the career, the body of an of an attorney, but how did your interest in politics and in this kind of leads to your first meeting with future President George H W Bush as? As very when you were very young man. Tell us how that happened I. Always had an interest in politics, but I I decided very early on. I guess because of my bringing. In fact, I was married when I was nineteen and had two children by the time I was twenty one that I had to make a career before it could go into politics or public service felt that was important to provide for my family and so. I went to law school began legal career, but I was always interested in politics, and in the sixties again as part of working my way through school was hired to work on what was called the draft goldwater committee that was instrumental in winning the nomination for Barry Goldwater to be the GOP nominee in nineteen, sixty four and part of my job was. Was To be in San Francisco at the convention and my goal in being there to make this young dashing upcoming political star that everybody was talking about named George Herbert Walker Bush was first time he'd run for office. Heat announced the United States Senate and I really wanted to work on his campaign. And so my goal and San Francisco was to meet. who we now later call forty one, and I went to a Texas reception with the goal of meeting him, and I'm in this room. He comes in the door. I got there early, so I wouldn't miss him, and he comes in the door, and you save making eye contact with me and I thought my goodness sees heard about me. And he walks all the way over to me making our contact with me and I said here's my big break, and he put his arm around me, said young man ear flies. I wanted to crawl out of the Cow Palace I. Literally what I've never been so mortified in my life. I got to later telling that story and the White House would he was president. I said Mr President on no, but for that one incident and have been in your cabinet. Now's the tiebreaker because it was. Just can't trust these scout and public. I'm sure what he said not the start you're looking for for your. For. Your, career in politics. For Office for quite a while. Took a while to get that in the rear view mirror so so you a Houston Louis Ross Perot becomes your your client, and that just brought about head to bring about all kinds of adventures in in great stories. The that was a wonderful break for a young lawyer When he gave us our first piece of business I just started my law firm. Firm a year before. We had five lawyers and all of a sudden. We're representing Ross Perot eds and it was just a you know like a rocket ride. I mean People have forgotten, but I mean Ross. Perot was kind of the equivalent of Michael. Dell Steve Jobs and Bill Gates all rolled into one, and he was kind of the first tech big figure. You know there was IBM and then there was Ross Perot, and so it was just an enormous break, and in my life and my career, and led me a lot of wonderful challenges opportunities. I got to sue the government of Iran. I got purchase this. Lamin, Republic of Iran and security judgment recover. The money got to buy the car on behalf Ross. Okay, hold on. Just drop that in nothing. Ebay didn't exist. No, it did not. Ross got a call one day from Stanley. Marcus is daughter and she said Ross. I've got a friend in England. Who wants to sell a magnet Carter and I think you ought to buy it. And he says. Well okay, he said. He said how much they want for it, and she said I don't know well. It's worth a million five hundred thousand dollars to me tell and what year was this nineteen eighty five? Maybe four, eighty, five, million five goes pretty far pretty far, yeah? And She called by, said well the they'll take that. And he said well said I must say my lawyer over there. He said I WANNA. Make sure it's real and. If, he said if he can assure me. Carter, then we gotta deal. So Ross calls me at the office. Tom Despite the magnet Carter. Go over there and verify that it's the real thing now. Sit Ross. This may surprise. You don't have anything in my forum files about how to verify magnet Carter's. He said. Just follow your nose. Go over there, and figure it out and so I. Did and we verified it in? But it was a Collie. It was a wonderful experience for me because I was a student of history and first thing I did was read Churchill's history, the speaking people and understand the importance of the magnet, Carter and this great story after a completed, the purchase verified it, and all that I had to get an export license and call Ross. Okay, it's. We've bought it. Cheers out, said you want them. They bring it back. He said no, he said just bring it back. You said the best security snow security. Bring it back with you on there. So I. Get it on American. Airlines and I put it in the coat closet and sit across from the coat closet. Afraid to go to sleep I. Don't what I thought somebody do that, you know. I, guess jump out of an airplane, but anyway I get to DFW. Airport on going through customs lists eighty heavy thing to declare. The MAGNA Carta. JOKESTER here right? Step over here? a good thing. It wasn't happening today. I'd probably get arrested. It was kind of interesting is as he tell these stories you've said the year writing the ridden. This wave of goodwill kind of glossed over in this story with President. H W Bush. That you've kind of you've got all these people helping you log, but there's something about you. That's probably making them want to help you. Eat you kind of gloss over. You went to this convention to do this. Like had some gumption. Is that a conscious thing that you've developed over the years or is? This is who you are well. That's a good question. You know I've always. My grandkids get tired of me saying this, but say over and over I, always say you'll never exceed your own expectations. I like that and when you think about it, that's true if you tell the kid then broad jump a certain amount of fate. That's how much abroad. If you set the bar on the Haja, that's how far they'll jump and. I don't know, just think having. Expectations of yourself is important I don't mean that in a cocky way. It's just ally. Toy is the worst that can happen and I've I've found of this and hiring. I always think you ought to go after the best talent and the worst thing you'd have to hear somebody say no, thank you well, so what? You've made a friend. You've made a connection. You learn something and I just think it's important in terms of setting expectations for yourself for the organization. Somehow you know. I always thought I'd be starting quarterback for the home. Football Team I wouldn't. But always thought I'd be and I always thought I'd be a great college basketball player I wouldn't. but I always aspired to to do those things that kind of ties also to education where I think President Bush's famous lines, the soft bigotry law expectation totally. I mean I was always so symbolic. Oh, he wasn't learn it for me, but I was simpatico with him about education I could always tell that came from his gut. He believed those same as it was in the core of his being, and he always talked about standards and expectations, and it's. It's really true if we set our barlow for our kids. That's what they'll achieve if we set them higher, the though achievement higher. Sports. Fan You. Are you know what happened? When Roger Bannister broke the four minute mile, everybody else started making everybody else broke it and it was A. Believed to be unfathomable and only fathomable, and then you know now we got high school kids breaking the four men in my so this is such an hour. You know keeping on the education theme in Nineteen. eighty-three. Governor white sets up a select committee and public. Education Reform Ross Perot's involved to to funded as I recall. He was chairing. The commission made up of various people, but he made the decision. A great decision he said I don't want this staffed by the Education Agency how willing to pay for it myself and so Tom I, won't you hiring recruited staff because I want us to have the best research possible the best experts from all over the country. I don't want to rely upon the existing system to tell me how we're doing so so you leave Hewson loose for eighteen months. Step away yes. Because Ross Perot called me and said Tom I've just told the governor of the state that you volunteered to take a leave of absence from the law firm. To run this commission for me and I did a quick calculation of the percentage of revenue. He was law firm and I told him I thought that was a great idea. I was drafted in other words, so you were drafted. You went down there and you had an interesting first round draft choice with this elite staff that you were going to build. Yes, her name was Margaret Spellings. I've met her. Yeah, and who subsequently now the way she likes to tell the story. Everything works out in the right way because I eventually worked for her instead of she working for me. And she says that meritocracy. Is the proof that she ended up being the secretary of Education, and not me well all three of us around the table here it worked for her. That is true and when you stop working for her. She tells you on your way out. Don't forget you still work for me. So! What was that experience like? This is where you really get into data, which has kind of fueled. You're working all the public service that you do. What did you learn about Texas at that time? And maybe a no pass, no play happen. Then we'll I learned a lot. I mentioned earlier first of all. It opened my eyes to how many kids had not gotten the same opportunities that I had and it was heartbreaking. I mean I saw I. Mean I'm a firm believer, philosophically equal opportunity on necessarily equal outcomes, equal opportunity, but I learned. Learned very quickly that not all kids have equal opportunity, and they don't line up at the starting line the same way in the same place that I did, and that was really true on our state in the eighty S. unfortunately, it's still too often. The case that our kids don't get same headstart. Then I got and that's not right. That's not fair. Competition. Odd Gist became convinced that. Not only was it. Elements have injustice, but it wasn't good for our state. One good for our country and our economic system, which I'm a great believer in does not gonNa work if we did not have equal opportunity for everybody and Thomas Jefferson I don't remember the exact quote, said you know the future of our democracy depends upon the success of our public education system, and that's true for a lot of reason now we'll talk a little bit more about that when we when we talk about twenty thirty six, and where things stand today, but sort of the next thing that happened is you decided to run for governor? Yourself. In nine hundred ninety right, The Way I put it on temporary I had a temporary bout of insanity and I ran for governor and. lost. And but it was a it was A. Shock people say it was a great experience I wouldn't trade it for anything I learned so much about the state. It was a great family experience. I met people that are still my friends today from all over the state. I'll learn a lot about the state. I just had a wonderful experience. And that's where you met really get to know George. W voices idea it was real interesting, really known his. Known his father and I think I'd probably met. President. forty-three previously, but we certainly were not friends any. Call me out of the blue one day about. Month after I'd announced for governor. And he said Tom and he said. We know each other well enough for me to make this call I'm won't do it anyway. He said understand. You're a little nervous about Kinney. He already had a nickname. He is nicknamed. My son's name was Ken. He said I understand. You're a little nervous about Kenny. working on your campaign and I said well. I am Sir I, said frankly said main reason is he's in his twenties, and he's married, and he quit his job without talking to me about it, and said he was going to work fulltime on my campaign without pay. I said I'm not sure exactly how that's GonNa Work George and he said well, he let me share something. Would he said? It's the best lane ever happened for my experience with my father was to work on his campaign and for a change. Be Able to help him as opposed to him. Help in the any, said you let Kenny help you and it'll be a wonderful thing for you and I did. And he was right so then sort of the next big inflection point is is now. George H W Bush run for president and then out of the blue. This lightning bolt happens where the other really important relationship in your life. He decides he's going to throw in in Nineteen ninety-two for president and you leave to go run that campaign. Tell us about how you navigated that experience very carefully. Well first of all. Ross called and said Tom I'm never ask you for a favor. And I'm asking you a favor to come. Help me run. Not Presidential Campaign I've made this Larry King appearance I'm being flooded with telephone calls inquiries and. On SMA help, and which come help me. Sit Down with him and said you know raw some really indebted to you and treasure, our friendship and our relationship, but I said you need to know going in that I will not I will do my best to run your campaign, but I will not speak ill are. In any way negative about. Bush I will do my best to help you win. But I'm not gonNA just I can't do it I. Don't you know I don't believe a? Shouldn't be very good at it because I don't. I don't feel that way he said. I understand and that's not your job. On each run the make sure. The railroad runs and run the campaign. How does Vice President Bush? Take this news that you're thrown in with the? Opponent that's clearly going to hurt his chances. Well, I guess the proof is in the pudding. When Ross dropped out of the race in the summer of ninety two, my assistant came in my office. In the White House is on phone, and the President Bush wants to speak to you and I thought well. It was probably somebody like cell. They pulled and prank combat really wasn't in the White House, but she said No. It really is the White House and the president wants speak to you. Follow me. And he comes on the phone. He said Tom. She's George Bush and he said I just heard Ross dropped out of the race and I just want you to know that I more than most people value loyalty under why you did what you did and welcome back it feels. Yeah I said Vice President. He was obviously president. Rutherford, election? Year history I do now. But then there's another wrinkle in the story. In that Ross, Perot reenters the campaign for for president. Then what happens well I hit already decided that I would not go back and help and Russell understood that about already you know. Made a commitment to help the reelection campaign of President Bush so I stuck to that if we fast forward a little bit, then you find yourself in the Bush, forty three administration as Assistant Secretary of Education. How did that relationship work? How did you feel at that point in your career? Is as it a pretty pretty high post in the administration first of all, I felt very humble gratified at work. Twenty five thirty years on education. Margaret had been named secretary of Education a new head and education president and Margaret's called, and said I got the perfect job for you I want to work on budget and policy and I had a conversation with her and and. She said. You know. Funny I remember. I told her I said Margaret. I'll do, but I said I don't want to give any speeches. I don't want to travel workum Budgie policies and she. She honored that and. I'll tell you funny story. When I was getting ready to be sworn in I, had all my grandchildren come up my children and and. On down the education building, celine remember that building, and at the time it was known as federal building number six number at least glamorous place in. Washington DC correct with the name to match. Yes, right and Um. My grandsons are walking up the sidewalk, all dressed and blazers and ties, which was really unusual experience, but I told them dress up and I'm down at the security and. The security guard their woman Awesome you see those seven? Boys that's said those from our grandsons are coming to see me today's. She said Oh. Is, today your retirement date. I said No. It's my start date. Skew the average age of the Department of Education so they come in when I. Did you made an incredible impact in that in the year plus that you were there? Let's let's talk a little bit about Texas twenty thirty six. Now we could listen to these stories all day, but let's talk about what you're doing today. Texas, twenty, thirty six. Like what's what's the mission? What are you up to well? The big vision is we're really up to trying to make sure that my grandchildren and their children had the same opportunities I had. That's a simple way of state, and I really believe that that's at risk. If we don't pay attention to some major issues that have to be addressed, and therefore I wanted a forward-looking organization. Long term view of what we needed to do to keep the state the place we love tug live and do business and my experience in public policy is. You can't change public policy overnight I. don't care who you are. How persuasive you are the problems you're dealing with or massive. They're huge. I mean you know the public education system alone? Try Stage cared about five point. Six million children has about four hundred fifty thousand employees about six thousand eight hundred campuses. System that big, and then you had to that healthcare, higher education and water and roads. And the different distinction of state government. As opposed to federal government, thank, goodness is the state. Government can't print. Money has to balance the budget, and so how they spend a limited amount of resources is really a strategic decision that needs to be based upon term thinking in return on investment, and in today's political world long-term may be this afternoon's. Or if you're real lucky next, November, right and I thought we need an organization. That would say no. Let's talk about what we want. The State to beat I can twenty thirty six. How do we afford it? How do we get there? How do we turn the Queen Mary overnight hours the hard experience? You can't turn the Queen Mary overnight. You have to turn it very slowly and that's what takes twenty. Thirty six is about is ensuring the future. Future of our children and a grandchild, I would encourage our listeners to to go to the website that twenty Texas twenty, thirty six dot Org correct, and and look at the data, and it's pretty ominous about what what is coming down the road. The growth of the state is is incredibly impressive, but with that growth comes challenges with every policy area that you're undertaking well. One example we project population growth from twenty eight million people today forty million. Twelve million people, so it also shows we'll be out of water. Be Hard to get to work will run out educated workforce. You can't. Bill. Water reservoirs overnight education pipeline sixteen years long or fourteen or twelve, so we better get started. And one of the challenges and President Bush has talked about this that the elected officials are not prone. You know politicians are not used to looking over the horizon. They're worried about the next election. They look at a two year or four year a six year window. How do you overcome that well I think we have to do it by building public demand. that. We think longer term. You know the way I look at it. Public officials respond public demand, and we need to mobile us a significant portion of our population. That is disaffected by the political process. Or doesn't think the political process speaks to them today in the way I phrased it to him. Is You need a foraging the F. O. R. that you can say to public official this is. The example I use I'm never heard political candidate yet. WHO Says I'm against education? I haven't found anyone who is against Mogi. But I want you in the future to hand them this. Strategic Plan and say Young Woman I. Think what you mean by telling me your for education is your four this specific plan and these specific changes, and then hold them accountable. You really is interesting that so much of our news and our media consumption is focused on national policy when it's our state and local policies that often impact day to day life as much if not more totally, and because of what's happening in Washington. That's even more so today. I mean you look at the. The impact California has by passing laws about data, privacy or automobile emissions all of a sudden. General Motors GonNa make cars in a different way because it's a big market policy is going to be made in state, a state and local governments and s Texas goes I. Really believe this as Texas goes, so goes the nation because we we are a reflection of the Texas of the United States economy we've got the diversity forgot rural urban suburban. We've got it all technology technology. I mean if you can do it in Texas, you can do it anywhere last thing for a time in in out of personal, I wanNA. Thank you for being the ocean wave in my life. From the time that we met on May First Nineteen ninety-six when Ross Perot junior purchased the mavericks where I had worked for a long time, and that day was a tectonic plates, shouted in my life that day through you and I'm one of those people who have benefited from your generosity and kindness and wisdom, and that went from the Mavericks to Dallas Twenty, twelve. Our effort to came up just a little bit short. Olympics ended up in London twenty twelve dollars. It was in the universe. And they held the Olympics in two thousand. And it was still our time to shine. The US Department of Education which led to Migrate Adventures and with President Bush in Washington here and just you know personally I'm grateful to you for all that you've done for me in for. My family is one of the just one of the one of the great people that I've had the privilege to get to get to know and I kind of know the answer to this question, but I want to ask you if we went down the list just for the kids which advocated for kids in Austin. Austin the national. Math and science initiative, which is now in forty something states and incredibly successful, the Meadows Mental Health Policy Institute you started all of these big things now, Texas twenty thirty six, so you go around town, and you ask people to join in whether it's to donate financially or to do something to help advance all of these efforts. Why do they keep saying? Yes, when you show up with your newest big bold idea, Golly, I'm I'm really I'm really humbled by a really much. Sincerely I I. Don't know exactly why I do think. Relationships are important. trust is important. Try to set tell my grandchildren. that. Every day is important in terms of building your own credibility and integrity and relationships, and it doesn't matter who you deal with. You have to deal with every person in the same way and I really do I. Really do believe comes from. Faith and my wife's a better example of it than I am I really believe that that we ought to act in a way. That really reflects that we believe that every person will encounters child got. Kind of a great message for someone for everybody in whether your career starting out. Does he treat everybody that way? It's just absolutely essential and I. Don't think you can treat Ross Perot or the grocery store checkout person any differently and I just think that's. That's essential Tom One last question. You've answered a million questions over the years. Probably what is an you that you wish someone? Would ever over your time well think? Interesting question on like this, Kevin. Margaret is they both abandoned? Grab onto more done to make. Chris Medic figure in forty three in less me in the shade. And it was just so obvious what was happening. This left me on the curb, and this bright shiny face came back, but I've gotten over it I've gotten over, it really have. TYPICAL TIMELESS FASHION! He doesn't make it about himself. How. We ended except on that Tom, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time to do it. I know you're busy and best of luck with Texas twenty thirty six. Like you so much light for heaven. On the phone now, with Tom Loose to update our earlier conversation and boy. Do we have a lot to talk about? Since then so we spent some time talking about US dallasite and a Texan and you've seen a lot so I'd like to start just by letting you reflect and provide some of your perspective on what's been going on with everything from Cova to the Racial Justice Movement. Just go ahead and opine ferment. All my goodness you know I was. Thinking about them having a conversation with my grandson's to mind. told him I want to talk about the perfect, storm, twenty, twenty. In my mind that's talk seeks to were based within our country rotten now which is. The pandemic. Social Justice Racial Divide. Economic Circumstances. We found ourselves in the dramatic sudden unemployment across. The country the worldwide nature of this pandemic. The social media phenomena we're seeing. Cultural van underlain by presidential politics. It's Only time I can recur. Recall. And that is even halfway similar, and it's only halfway is nineteen sixty eight. I'll let through that I'm pump, the country was. In many ways coming apart in nineteen, sixty eight, but this is a toxic stew and we. We need to get our act together. And we need to deal with and proactively shape the new normal because we're GonNa, have the normal. And the question is. Is it GonNa? Happen? The right way. So were there lessons out of the nineteen sixties that apply now? What can we take from that era and have we made any real progress since then? Well it is depressing. My Age. I think a lot of what we didn't get right in What is yes, we've made an enormous amount of progress in. Addressing the. Issues of race in our country since nineteen sixty eight, but my generation failed. To adequately address it. And just that one aspect alone stands out to me. Is You know I feel like my mom's generation? you know we do talk about with with good reason Progress with May, but obviously we didn't overcome the issues. We all hoped we would. And I would say. In nineteen, sixty eight economic conditions were knowledge bad as they are I mean we basically. We've never had job losses of this magnitude in this abrupt amount of time. I mean it was crashed Bam. Thank you Ma'am we went from. You know home three percents on employment to twenty percent unemployment in the short period of time that same buried. That's. I don't think that's ever. We called in our country even in the great. Depression, it occurred over multiple years. Cheered you up and? You know no, no, you have quite yet, but you know. Sometimes you gotta fight through the tough conversations, and then we can be cheered up once we have some. Lasting significant change now. Surely, and that's what I mean. What what is important is A An earthquake occurred. The landscape has been altered. And the question is. What's that Landscape GonNa? Look like and what are we going to make this? Can Happen to us, so we can make it happen the way you wanted to. And I think that it's it's possible there's going to be transformational change. I think you've already seen some indications of. But. Any transformational change it's GonNa be some ups and downs, and it's GonNa take real leadership. And It's so it's important that everybody you know. My favorite saying is in the marks that you get what you deserve at N-. It's going to be up to us from this point forward to make the best what we came. Well, we talked a lot about education in our first conversation and President Bush has called education and urgent civil rights issue as an Education Guy. What do you see the role of education being as we move forward? With got a big huge and unfortunately is. His message of the bigotry low expectations and He was so profound and in really. Announcing pronouncing repeating that education. Was the new civil rights movement and he's staying, but we lost that momentum and we gotta. Pick it back up. So Instance Bob Moses he was a prominent African American. leader Minister Civil Rights Movement. He said many many many years ago. Algebra is the new. Fundamental Civil Rights of African American, and he was saying Algebra you know he was. He was saying those words, even the whole President Bush and was speaking to this very issue of bigotry and low expectations, so. We have to address these fundamental issues. So I think I something. A lot of people are trying to figure out is what can we do differently? And how can we have more productive conversations and I think a lot of that starts at the individual level so it ask you tom what you're going to be doing differently. Yes but I WANNA. Challenge the. This is We have to do more than talk about this and listen. In that we have to move to POW seat solutions. And you know maybe because of my policy background, but for instance if you talk about. Protest now about police brutality. What changes do we want to make? In policy that govern. enforcement, loss or something we would all say we need order in our society. You also need long otherwise I. mean. I've heard conversation lately about the you know. We have to have ordered well. That phrase is law and order, and what should the law the that governs? The way we enforce our laws and we. We've gotta get specific. What changes do we want to make and how please? Investigate crimes arrest people whatever those changes are. We need to have concrete policy discussions. and. The get concrete policy discussions about housing. You know one of the issues that we face are. many of our Jeanne these lack of portable housing well, that can be essentially public. Policy topics, you know I know one A. multifamily housing project in my single family neighbor well understanding. But that leads to more expensive housing. So you have to get trying to create about some of these, and that requires some frank, the bay and give and take to reach. House see prescriptions that the public will buy into and we need leader. She will provide the leadership and communicate the reasons why in why one plus one will St. Well and The other big issue going on in the world still is covid nineteen. And Y- organization Texas Twenty, thirty six is really built on the premise that data can help. Better informed tough decisions so with that Lens. Think the best moves are for Texas and other states. That are struggling with having lost so much classroom time for for our kids. Well clear in just so many different issues facing education space, but I mean for. Most amount belt life. We've argued about a loss of learning time in the summer. But now the summer is GONNA be March to probably September. And cannot afford to let. Our children mess in essence. Year of Education. Term on task I want to learn when I worked in education was A. Fancy word educators used that you and I would just say yeah. You know you spend more term. Steady now number is probably gonNA make a difference. We'll term on task matters. In where we are the lag in the whole rest of the world about front, we spend on task and education. That's gotTa stop. We wouldn't matter our Olympic athletes. Train for global competition by working out stays. It's ridiculous that we don't spend more term. in the classroom and again that raises issues of the digital divide. Have they do it safely? How do we do in wise children? Can they say? But we cannot just say well Our kids get two or three years off. Until we get back saying all right, let's see here. We can't. We can't let her go. So we, we've got to let you go here in a second time for one more so following up there, we already have an achievement gap in our schools, and like you said that that gap isn't helped by the digital divide. And covid nineteen, only making things worse. So what can we do to close that gap in this environment? Well we, we have to be honest with ourselves that that that gap is real. We've kid ourselves in many race in many ways since president, Bush left office that. Quo You know y you don't understand we. Are you know we have a diverse population were not like China. We're not like Asia were not like it when my the. I mean. It doesn't matter the fact of the matter is we're behind the rest of the world and our rigor. What would require our students? And we had say the reality. that. We need to do better and we're not doing enough. To help our students prepare themselves for the twenty. First Century. And we have to be real about that and rigorous about that and I know. President. Bush has always felt that way about him. Bless him board, but we need more than ever now. While Tom thanks again for spending a few minutes with us here to to close out what we started a few months ago, so really appreciate it and Tom Be careful out there. Stay healthy, and and we'll talk soon. Thank you so much, take care. Learn more about Texas. Twenty thirty six visit Texas Twenty thirty six dot, Org, and you can also learn more about the Bush Institute's work in education, reform and Bush Center dot. ORG SLASH ED reform. If you enjoyed this episode of the strategic. Please tell a friend or give us a five star review or send US note on social media at the Bush Center on Facebook instagram and twitter. Thanks for listening.

George Herbert Walker Bush Ross Perot president Tom One Texas Texas Ross basketball White House Margaret Spellings secretary Bush Center Tom Loose Smu George Bush Presidential Cente Kevin Sullivan Dallas Houston MAGNA Carta President
Woman Accuses Biden Of Unwanted Touching; He Didn't Intend To Be Inappropriate

NPR Politics Podcast

17:58 min | 1 year ago

Woman Accuses Biden Of Unwanted Touching; He Didn't Intend To Be Inappropriate

"Support for NPR and the following message come from Dulles International Airport with the highest on time takeoff percentage of any airport on the east coast. I a d means I'm already departing more at fly Dulles dot com slash fast. It damn guess what? Let's got big news. We're doing another live podcast on the road. We're going to be in Philadelphia. In fact, we are going to be there on April twenty six to record a live podcast onstage all about the twenty twenty election. We just did this Atlanta. It was great. But here is the catch. We need your help to make sure it's the best podcast possible. And the way to do that is to head over to NPR presents dot org and grab a ticket to be in the audience. That's Friday, April twenty six in Philadelphia. We'll see you there. Hi. I'm Joe, I'm Sarah. And we're from Chicago. But right now, we're in stonewall, Texas, where we're at the gravesite of thirty six president of the United States Lyndon Baines Johnson, which also happens to be the thirty fourth presidential gravesite, we visited on our quest to see them, all and. Tomorrow. We're going to college station to see our thirty fifth the gravesite of George Herbert Walker Bush this podcast was recorded at one fifty pm on Monday, April. First things may have changed by the time. You hear this? But we'll probably still have four presidents to go. Okay. Here's the show. That is so nerdy. And yet, so very cool. Very on brand listeners. Good job. Hey there. It's the PR politics podcast. I'm tamer Keith. They cover the White House. I'm Mara Liasson national political correspondent and Danielle Kurtz, leave and political reporter and Danielle tell us where you are right now because you have some noise behind you. And you are you're actively out reporting is that right? Yes. I am on a stairwell to the basement of the Warner theater in downtown Washington DC, which is the best place to both get a mix of quiet, but also some sort of a signal. So that's what we're doing because. Yeah, this is an event called the we the people summit where you have a bunch of groups, including unions, Planned Parenthood other groups who are having a sort of cattle. Call a bunch of candidates here talking. I believe we have eight candidates today. Eight democratic candidates now one candidate who isn't yet a candidate is in the news. And that is what we're here to talk about. That is Joe Biden who is considering a run for president on Friday. New York magazine published in essay written by Lucy Florus, a democratic former assemblywoman from Nevada who says that then vice president Joe Biden did something in two thousand fourteen that made her feel embarrassed and powerless. She was running for Lieutenant governor at the time and Biden came to campaign for her and others in the state. And here's what she told. NPR happened backstage at that event in two thousand fourteen evil and Goria was in front of me, Joe Biden was behind me. And you know, I just all of a sudden feel his hands. And I feel him get up really close to me. And I'm just you know, at that point processing, and I'm thinking, okay. This is really weird. But then he leans in. And then he like inhales in and then he proceeds to plant this long kiss on the top of my head and the entire time. I'm just kinda like what is happening. What was Biden's response to this allegation Biden issued a statement where he said quote in my many years on the campaign trail and in public life. I've offered countless handshakes hugs expressions of affection support and comfort and not once never did. I believe I acted inappropriately. If it is suggested I did. So I will listen respectfully, but it was never my intention. He goes on to say, we've arrived at an important time when women feel they can and should relate their experiences mentioned bay. Attention. I will pay attention. And then he says, I'm remained the strongest advocate, I can be for the rights of women. I've done any talks about the work. He's done in his career to end violence get against women insure equality, etcetera etcetera. And because this is modern technology Biden statement came out on Sunday. And then Flora's did an interview with NPR did interviews with a number of people, and she actually responded to Biden's response. I need the vice president and all men and all people who are in positions of power to understand that in that setting in that situation that kind of behaviors absolutely inappropriate, but she did say, she did not consider it sexual assault or harassment or harassment. A big part of the reason why I'm also speaking out now is because he has a history of this. This is not in unknown issue. There have been stories. There are pictures. There are videos, I think that there is a very severe disconnect and lack of empathy for. For what the women on the receiving end are feeling all of this comes the this allegation against former vice president Joe Biden by a Lucy Flora's who was a candidate for Lieutenant governor in Nevada. Also later was Puerto Bernie Sanders, but she is saying that Biden shouldn't run and that that is part of why she came forward, and there has Mara been this sort of, you know, creepy Joe or I don't know what you want to call it. But there's been sort of a me about Joe Biden. He's very tactile. You could even say he's tactile in the extreme some people will say, he's Hansie. But yes, there are most I would say most all of this has occurred in public on videotape or photographed we haven't heard anyone say in a private meeting with Joe Biden, he did this. So the question is does the Democratic Party of twenty nineteen. Thinks that this behavior is out of bounce a thing of the Democratic Party is going to have to grapple with going into twenty twenty is. Okay. So Lucy Flora's did not say it was assault. She did not say it was harassment anything like that. But even the Democratic Party sauce, the thing about even if it's not illegal the thing that the person did is the person who has made a woman or potentially more than one woman feel uncomfortable in this way, is that the person we want heading our party, especially post me metoo. And that's a really big question for Democrats, one of the enduring images that has come up anytime that it's disgust that Joe Biden, former vice president, you know, may have issues of being in people's personal space or to touchier whatever you wanna call. It is the case of Stephanie Carter. She is the wife of the former Defense Secretary ash Carter and et Carter swearing in several years ago. Joe Biden was photograph sort of giving her a shoulder rub of sorts and and in one image. She has a look on her face that is kind of like uncomfortable following the flora story coming out Carter put up a post on medium and said this thing that is being perceived as Miami to moment wasn't a me moment. But was in fact, a friend Joe Biden being a friend trying to comfort her on a challenging day, and that for her it had none of the connotations that have been put out there on late night TV or in comedy routines, or in various places where this picture keeps popping up. You know, this is a difficult problem for Democrats. They wanna be the party of zero tolerance. But zero tolerance of what they haven't quite figured out. What are the lines beyond which they feel certain behavior is disqualifying? If. If it's not obvious sexual harassment or assault, or if somebody is is alleging that which so far nobody has here. So the question is how is Biden going to deal with these as they come up as they are pushed vigorously by maybe by his democratic opponents, and certainly by the Republicans. So Danielle you are out there talking to Democrats, and I'm curious both. You know, this was like a really big story on cable over the weekend and elsewhere. But how is it registering with the democratic candidates and with democratic voters who were there at that event? You're attending, right. So some have sort of tiptoed around it, or at least not stepped into it too deep, for example, any closure. I saw that she told the New York Times, you know, this is essentially this is a thing that Joe Biden is going to have to deal with if and when he gets in. So he's essentially saying that is his problem. I look forward to seeing what he. Says also I have no reason not to believe this woman, Lucy Flora's that is believed this woman, Joe Biden isn't knocked believing this woman these not he's not saying it didn't happen the way she describes she's talking about her feelings this believing. The woman is what you have to is part of the he said, she said situation. That's not what this is. There's not too different views of what happened. There's just two different views of how it felt. Well, there's only one view of how it felt how it felt to her, you know, and then he talks about his intention. That's something different. I think we just this is the problem we have to be really precise about what is the accusation. And what is not the accuracy, Elizabeth Warren? Meanwhile, seems to have taken at least a somewhat harder line. She said that Joe Biden quote needs to answer for this story from Lucy Flora's. So yes candidates have been asked, and we, you know, we're just days into this particular storyline. And my particular take is I mean, it's just this is going to have to be, unfortunately, we're gonna. Have to see how big this gets right because I've been walking route around this event. Like, I said, lots of union members Planned Parenthood supporters that sort of thing people who are pretty strong Democrats, and a lot of the the majority of the people I've asked have not heard the story yet the way the candidates are answering sounds like they don't know how big this is going to be and they don't want to get out too far out in front. This could be a situation of the Republicans and Donald Trump's various issues didn't matter to Republican voters might not matter to Democrats, Donald Trump sort of definitely complicates this for Democrats. Right. I mean, Donald Trump you could very easily. Make the case was a major catalyst and making the metoo whole movement really gain a lot of momentum. And one woman I spoke to today, she she made the sort of comparison between Trump invited. And she she had heard this orangey said, you know, either way whatever Donald Trump did the various allegations against Donald Trump. Assume much worse than Lucy floor is a story about Joe Biden here now that may well be true. But then again, you have a lot of Democrats who would argue listen as Mara said, we want to be the party of zero tolerance the question once again, circling back to tolerance of what? And you know, what's so interesting is the party of zero tolerance is exactly what Republicans want Democrats to be. If you heard Kellyanne Conway over the weekend. She was saying, oh, Democrats don't like this. She wasn't saying this is horrible behavior. Because that would lead you right into grab them by the you-know-what. But she she she is Republicans are counting on Democrats pretty much forming a circular firing squad. When any of these allegations come up? All right. We are going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we are going to talk about how Democrats are handling this. And what it all means for twenty twenty support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from better help better help offers licensed professional counselors, who specialize in issues such as depression, stress, anxiety and more. Connects with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environments at your convenience, get help at your own time and your own pace schedule secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist. Visit better help dot com slash politics. To learn more and get ten percent off your first month. Hey, it's a fear. Eisenberg host of NPR's ask me another for the entire month of April. We're celebrating women in comedy, and we're kicking things off with Russian doll actor grittily and co-creator, Leslie Hedlund and later in the month. We'll be joined by Reta from NBC's parks and recreation and good girls and many more start listening. This friday. And we're back is there any sense that you guys have of how this will affect the calculus is Biden decides whether to run and and whether it should affected. So I personally I can't get majo- Biden's mind, and I'm not even going to try to that's above my pay grade. But us. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Maybe you guys have a mind meld with him. I don't so. But what I will say this this isn't this doesn't happen in a vacuum. There are a lot of things people are thinking about when they are thinking about whether they like Joe Biden or not and I spoke to some voters today. Who said, yes, I love Joe Biden great. I did speak to one woman though, who said, you know, I've heard this story it gives me pause. But my main issue with Joe Biden is that he's too old. We need fresh blood. Likewise, I have spoken to voters on the campaign trail who have issues with Joe Biden because of his treatment of Anita hill, or because of the judiciary committee's treatment of Nita hill when Joe Biden Sheridan during the Anita hill, Clarence Thomas hearings all of which is to say, even if this one events dozens make voters go. Oh, holy cow. I can't vote for Joe Biden what it may do is add to these straws on the proverbial camel's back for some voters and make them think maybe I really should rethink this person. January makes a really important point when she brings up a Nieta hill because I don't think Lucy floor is the metoo problem that concerns Biden, I think it needed. I have had so several Democrats. The handful of them say why hasn't Biden tried to get right with Anita hill. Why isn't he had a private meeting with her? You know, he's offered a public apology for how he ran the hearings, but that is much bigger than this Lucy Flora's story. And that's what's interesting how he's gonna handle that beyond what he's already done and Nita hill. Just as a reminder is a lawyer who accused supreme court Justice Clarence Thomas before his confirmation or during his confirmation accused him of prolonged sexual harassment, and then actually testified in a hearing before the Senate Judiciary committee that was chaired by vice president Biden than Senator Biden. And it was not a pleasant experience for for for hill. Certainly on the other hand, Joe Biden. Is beloved in the party most conversations, I have with Democrats starts something like this. I love Joe Biden. But but what? But they're worried about his age or they're worried about his long complicated record. But there are a lot of things that that Democrats will tell you that Joe Biden has that kind of fits this moment. He has street cred with white working class voters. He could appeal to the state's Democrats cannot win without as in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. He is from Scranton. So he has a lot going for him. But he has their lot of questions about him. Not just this me too stuff that we've been talking about. But also can raise money can he perform does he have the energy level? He's in his mid seventies. I want to turn briefly before we go to this me too thing. And this time that we are in which is different than four years ago or eight years ago or twelve years ago, and you had a number of candidates have to deal with sexual harassment among their staff or a in their campaigns. You have a Bernie Sanders who has apologized for for aids during his two thousand sixteen campaign who felt that there was a climate of sexual harassment not coming from him. But coming from other other people on the campaign, comma, Harris and Kirsten gillibrand have both had issues with an aide different aids being accused of sexual harassment in in their offices. You know is this is this a problem? The Democrats are having to reckon with and how are they reckoning with it? I mean, yes, is it something they're going to have to reckon with semi truly because these allegations are coming out. I mean, it know institution is immune from this. I mean, it's just a question. But also Democrats I won't say they've benefited from the metoo movement, but what they did benefit from was a backlash to Trump and that backlash to Trump was very women driven. And that drove a lot of women to run for and get a lot of very enthusiastic support in their runs for congress in two twenty eighteen I am not being cynical here at saying that believing women is a way for the Democrats get votes. What I am saying is that very real concerns from women including about sexual harassment sexual misconduct across the spectrum or a thing that the Democratic Party has woken up to and really started listening to. So this is something that the Democratic Party is reckoning with I think that first and foremost. They want to beat Donald Trump, and they're going to be evaluating the candidate who that who. Also hasn't crossed a line. You know, this I come back to what we talked about before zero tolerance for what? And that's depends on the situation. There will be much more to talk about in the days and weeks to come as the primary continues. But for now, we're going to leave it there and tamra Keith I cover the White House. I'm Mara Liasson national political correspondent, and I'm Danielle Kurtz, leave and political reporter. And thank you for listening to the PR politics podcast.

Senator Biden Joe Biden Biden Lucy Flora harassment NPR vice president Mara Liasson Joe Biden Sheridan Donald Trump Joe Democratic Party Danielle Kurtz Puerto Bernie Sanders president George Herbert Walker Bush White House tamra Keith Dulles International Airport
Trump dismantled leadership at DHS. Can he fill key vacancies however he wants to?

Can He Do That?

20:58 min | 1 year ago

Trump dismantled leadership at DHS. Can he fill key vacancies however he wants to?

"Was one administration official told us a couple of days ago, there decapitating the entire department. President Trump fresh greeted by what he sees as a failure to reduce unauthorized migration to the United States spent this week dismantling the leadership of the nation's top domestic security agency, FEMA director, Brock long resigned. Not so long ago, and then the White House is nominee to lead, ice, immigration and customs enforcement, Ron Patillo his nomination was abruptly withdrawn last week without explanation. He resigned from his job a guy with thirty years of experience in the border patrol. That was followed by Nielsen's ouster on Sunday on Monday. The White House sacked the head of the secret service. They have removed the number three in DHS Clare Grady to make room for acting secretary Macalinsan to take over d h s and they have just moved the head of the Transportation Security Administration over to be the deputy acting secretary at HHS, so. There's been a shakeup across almost every agency in the country's principal national security department at the end of this week. They're still speculation that others DHS may soon be forced out as well. But why as a nation faces significant challenges around immigration with the president, create instability in the very department that oversees immigration related matters. Trump's latest personnel moves at D H S Meany administration has even more leadership roles filled by acting officials, and though Trump's interior secretary was confirmed Thursday, there are still many other acting officials in senior leadership positions. So what if anything might be lost? When an administration is full of acting leaders rather than leaders confirmed by the Senate to fill those positions. This is can he do that a podcast that explores the powers and limitations of the American presidency? I'm Alison Michael's? I sought to find out the pitfalls or maybe even the strengths that an acting cabinet can bring to governance. But before I got there. I wanted to learn more about what led to this week's Persian DHS. I talked to Washington Post reporter, Nick Muir off about the circumstances that led to the shakeup here. The post Nick reports on immigration enforcement and national security. Nielsen was John Kelly's pick to be secretary. She had helped him through the confirmation process when he was nominated by Trump, she became his chief of staff at the H S. And then when he moved to the White House, she went with Kelly, there, Trump always viewed her as Kelly's pick for that job and not someone that he had chosen himself and her tenure from the beginning was pretty rocky. So things really just came to a boiling point in the last few weeks, particularly when she departed on a trip to the g seven in Europe, the the White House it had been devised. Her trip. But the president was furious about what was happening at the border day, basically called her in London, and she was on the next plane back to DC. And you know, I think that was that was pretty the beginning of the end for her. She was called to the White House for a meeting with the president on Sunday evening. And it was after that meeting that her removal was essentially announced. So the president had named Kevin McLean in the Commissioner of US customs and border protection as the acting secretary of DHS and in a matter of days. Nielsen was gone it clear who's in charge who's making decisions there. It's not clear from what I understand acting secretary mcelwain and has a lot of discretion right now to put people into the top positions that he would like, but we also know that the White House has the candidates it favors and Trump advisors, especially Stephen Miller are pushing for figures who they think will sound like the president and get on board with his agenda. Enda and his impulses to be quote, unquote, tough where do the policies of meal, San and the that department of homeland security prior to this moment sort of fit in the spectrum of toughness when it comes to immigration policies in in US history. While I think what the president is is frustrated with is not the policies so much as US law, and the fact that the courts are telling the administration time and time again, you cannot impose executive solutions onto these problems. You need to go to congress and make a deal. Everyone will remember, of course, the zero tolerance family separation practice that occurred last year and ended in this incredible controversy, and I think to the president who has said just in the past few days once more that he thought that that was an effective policy, but he had to pull it back that symbolized perhaps a kind of toughness in the terms of treating people harshly, right? Taking children from their parents after they crossed the. The border and putting their children in shelters that was something that really shocked the conscience of Americans and was widely repudiated. I think across the spectrum what we're seeing is that what amounts to what maybe looks like toughness ends up being tremendously ineffective. Because as we know. The White House is now facing the biggest migration surge in twelve years, and they continue to to try policy solutions that either don't work or are blocked by federal judges. What do we know about why Trump would dismantle so much top leadership at DHS when the country is facing such a crisis at the border. You know, this is a really unprecedented since the creation of the department of homeland security after nine eleven US leaders of both parties have really wanted to convey to the American people that the department of homeland security was a was a stable institution is one of the first cabinet positions that is named during the transition and the kinds of people who ended up in those. Roles are usually senior security minded folks that have bipartisan respect so to do this. And to do it all at one time is something that we've never seen. And I think what it reflects is the presence frustration at the situation at the border and a desire to just kind of sweep the whole place of everyone who had been put in there by John Kelly, and without these senior security minded individuals as you say is our nation, less secure. Well, I mean, what would happen if there were an attack right now on the on the country with all this instability that the top of DHS, I think it would be hard not to look at that. As as a factor. This is a an agency that is was created with multiple missions. And counter-terrorism was at the top. I mean, this was DHS was originally a meant to be primarily counter agency. And what we've seen really accelerate under Trump is that it is primarily an immigration. Forcement agency because he is so focused on the border, and the the migration dynamic that all of the energy and attention is going to that. So is the nation less safe. I I don't know. I mean, you know, there are other the FBI, and and the NSA and other federal agencies are obviously untouched by this. And and doing what they do. But it's hard to see how this hasn't hurt DHS and the different agencies that are all tasked with with all these different things. Okay. So here's my final sort of sweeping question for you. Ken Trump, clean house at D H S and still affectively work towards an immigration solution. Almost like will this work. Yeah. I think that the purge at D H. S has alarmed a lot of senior Republicans and the kinds of folks that he will need to work with and who will need to work with Democrats in order to make a deal. So to the extent that that they're about what's going on undermines their position vis-a-vis, the Democrats. I think it does hurt his chances. Of getting some kind of deal because right now, it looks like the White House is just sort of careening around with no particular strategy throwing things at the wall, and doesn't appear any closer to really warning to to make a deal or to compromise on on some of the things that the Democrats are gonna want in order to give the administration the kinds of authorities. It's asking for to respond to the to the crisis at the border. So what Trump may face immigration related challenges while DA, Jeff leadership is in flux, but what about the other departments of our government? The posts Philip bump found that more than a fifth of Trump's presidency has seen departments run by acting leaders. And this got me wondering can a president simply choose to fill his administration with acting heads and bypass the Senate confirmation process altogether. It turns out many of these actions are guided by a statute that gives the president quite a bit of power. That's the federal vacancies reform act of nineteen ninety eight. It is the latest in a series of statutes since the start of the country that provides for temporary leadership in important agency positions. That's an Joseph O'Connell Stanford law, professor an expert on staffing federal agencies. She explained to me that there are default. Acting officials who Philly and when there's a cabinet secretary vacancy. So for most agencies, for example, if the president does nothing than the deputy secretary becomes the acting secretary by the faults the act also allows the president though to change that default in two ways. So the first is that the president can choose someone who is Senate confirmed to some other position in that agency or in a different agency. So when President Trump fire, David Schulkin at veterans affairs, the default acting official would have been the deputy secretary of the VA. But instead the president turns that they can see that and shows Robert Wilkie would. Been confirmed to a position in the defense department. And then the second way that the president can change the default is the president can choose someone within the agency who's been there at least ninety days in the past year of the bacon. See and is paid it at least at a GS fifteen or higher levels. So when Jeff Sessions was pushed out in the Justice department as attorney general President Trump turned that they can seize act and put in Matthew Whitaker who had been in the agency at least ninety days and had been paid at GSI higher, but had not been confirmed any position. So that's second batch of people gives the president sort of the right to appoint people who as you say have not been Senate confirmed have not gone through cobras. That's right now there are a couple of questions regarding that. I mean, the first is whether the vacancies act even applies though there was a question with regard to the department of Justice as to whether they can see acts still applied because there was. Pacific statute about the Justice department, and how succession should work call the attorney general succession act that was also a question. Whether the vacancies act applied in the veterans affairs example, because President Trump had fired the secretary, and there was a question about whether the act covers firings. So the statute might not necessarily evenly apply across all government departments. There might be different parameters applying to different departments. Yes now. So in this came into permanent home security to congress added language in two thousand sixteen that said notwithstanding they can see that. If there's no secretary VHS, the deputy, or there's no deputy under secretary of management shall be the acting director. And so when President Trump announced that secretary Nielsen was leaving and announced his pick for acting secretary who was not the under secretary for management because there's no deputy secretary right now, India. Excess that was a problem. And so that's part of the reason why Claire Grady was pushed out so that the statute couldn't apply and he could use the vacancy fat. So he's essentially firing someone in order to be able to hire one very specific person. Who in this case, the Senate has confirmed or by all right? So is it your assessment than that? This is how the federal vacancies reform act was intended to work to give president enough power to appoint sort of whomever. He wants within these two specific buckets. So does he because he's actors and important stopgap measured has staff incredibly important positions. In our modern administrative state, the appointments process takes time nominations, take time confirmations take time, but using the vacancies act in this way is unusual. Now, it's not unprecedented for presidents to fire. People president Carter fired four cabinet secretaries in the summer after his second year now often presidents manage those transitions better. So they don't have to rely on acting to the same degrees. So the defense department has an acting secretary very unusual. The last time we've had an acting secretary for more than a day was when a President George Herbert Walker Bush's nominee was voted down in one thousand nine hundred nine but presidents have been upset with their DOD secretaries and push them out. But the transitions were managed better. So secretary Aspen. President Clinton wanted him out Donald Rumsfeld secretary Rumsfeld President, George W Bush wanted him out Chuck Hagel, President Obama wanted him out, but those transitions were managed so there were new acting secretaries the president, you know, makes it clear that he wants someone new in these positions, and these people stay on until the next person is confirmed. What is unusual here is the I don't want you anymore, and I don't want you anymore right now. So we're going to put in acting. Let's talk a little bit more about the idea of an acting administrator an acting secretary how long can an administrator or secretary be acting it is there a time limit on how long we can have an acting secretary. It's depends. It would like a complicated word problem in a mass class. So if there is no nomination submitted to the Senate in act. Acting secretary or assistant secretary the time limits are the same under the vacancies act new matter the level of the position. So you get two hundred and ten days with new nomination, and you get three hundred days in the first year of an administration. Now if nomination is pending the acting conserve throughout the pendency of that nomination, and that nomination fails, you get an additional two hundred ten days after the nomination fails. And then it's the White House puts in the second nomination an acting person can serve during the pendency of that entire second nomination and that nomination failed. You get a final two hundred and ten days. Now, we've never seen that the longest acting secretary was Rebecca playing searches acting secretary of commerce during President Obama's administration. Are we approaching that two hundred ten day Mark with anything current acting Secretario? We are not okay. So one big question. Have is doesn't acting official actually have less power than a Senate confirmed one? Where it depends whether you think about formal power or functional power was interesting about the vacancies act is that acting have the same formal power as someone who's a confirmed or recess appointee to the position. Now, there's a question about functionalist authority. And I think this is why max star who heads the partnership for public service has called acting officials analogous to substitute teachers. But they don't command a full of thirty of the classroom in his words. I think that I think might be too strong, actually. But I do think that there's something to that. And this is someone ironic in a way that President Trump claims to love his acting 's and the ideas that he has more sway over his acting than he does. He's confirmed secretaries, but those acting secretaries may have less sway. Way over the people in their agencies, and those are the people who carry out presidential priorities along with other missions of the agencies. So it's not clear even for his objectives. That the president is better off with acting. So the Washington Post tracks with the help of the partnership for public service, the number of vacancies in the Trump administration, and at this point of the seven hundred seventeen key positions that we've identified that require Senate confirmation more than four hundred actually have confirmed officials filling those spots the others have either no nominees or a nominees awaiting confirmation is then attempt by the Trump administration just sort of downsize government or reduce bloating in the government. Is they might say, I don't think what's happening now is standard operating procedure. I should be clear about that. I think that they're always vacancies. Sometimes there are wait many vacancies, particularly in your. One. And at the end of administration the extent vacancies right now in the start of the third year is unprecedented. No, I don't think this is an intentional an intentional action because these positions are key to implementing presidential priorities. Okay. So my question for you is about sort of precedent going forward. Give him the application that we've seen of the federal vacancies reform act by the current administration. Is there an expectation that presidents can gain more flexibility by bypassing the Senate to ensure they have the people they want to fill the positions to get rid of sort of all these levels of officials that would normally ascend into the position and just fire everyone until they can have room to appoint the person they want is some precedent being pushed by these choices that the current administration is making I don't know about president that will be followed. That's how I think about precedent right at how is norm that would then be followed by subsequent people or stylish rules that will then be followed by subsequent people. I think what these examples are going to do is put pressure on congress to amend the vacancies act. So as I said before we'd had vacancies acts since the start of the country. I mean, the first they can seize act was in seventeen ninety two and we've had. A whole series. There are changes that can be made that hopefully, we've new elections a will be made to the vacancies act to try to curb some of the strategic use that we're seeing in this administration. And I also think it's not going to be an attractive president because to the extent that acting don't have the same functional authority, even if they possessed the same formal authority and the political blowback to firing so many people is that I think that presidents will continue to want confirmed officials leading these agencies, and what we're seeing now is unprecedented and unusual and disconcerting, but hopefully that will not get rid of a very important device for modern governing. All right. Thank you so much for coming on L. Thank you. This has been another episode of can he do that? As we mentioned the Washington Post in partnership with the partnership for public service tracks vacancies within the Trump administration on our website. You can find that tracker at Washington Post dot com. And if you like this episode as always please remember to share it and review it wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks so much for listening. Can he do that is a team effort here post? It's produced by the enthusiastic Carol alderman with design help from cat rebel Brooks logo. Art from the Ren Bogue. Leo and theme music by Ted molding.

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2109 - Weve Got People: From Jesse Jackson to AOC, the End of Big Money w/ Ryan Grim

The Majority Report with Sam Seder

1:32:18 hr | 1 year ago

2109 - Weve Got People: From Jesse Jackson to AOC, the End of Big Money w/ Ryan Grim

"You are listening to a free Berge of majority report with Sam cedar to support this show and get another fifteen minutes daily program. Good already dot S M please. The Jarrah de rob with Sam cedar. It is Monday. June tamp two thousand nine hundred nine hundred name is Sam cedar. This is the five time award winning majority report. We are broadcasting live steps from the industrially ravage Ghana's canal. The heartland of America downtown Brooklyn USA. On the program today. Jeep shington correspondent the intercept Ryan Grim on his book. We've got people. Also on the program today, cotton ally. Donald Trump claims there's a secret plan for Mexico to fix immigration. Also on the program today Senate. Tries a bipartisan effort to halt Saudi Arabian arm sales. John dean will testify, the House Judiciary committee. North carolina. Fails to overturn the governor's veto of the latest forced pregnancy, Bill. Donald Trump ends fetal. Teaser tissue research at the NIH as well as federal funding, and a report, Google made four point seven billion dollars last year off of news, producers lawsuits may follow. And as part of a broad health insurance program young undocumented. Imigrants will be getting subsidized healthcare in California. And a massive Brazilian leak shows that the supposedly impartial prosecutor slash judge as if that works Moro was in the bag in his pursuit of Lula. And finally, the White House friendship tree has died. All this and more on today's program, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for joining us nother another week of fun. A head of us lazy gentleman. Glad you could start it off with us and. The we look forward to your your being here. I just want to mention this is it's pretty sad. I did not know this guy but I. Read his work quite a bit on. Various outlets salon the American prospect. He wrote other places I'd just particularly remember his pieces from there. And also on Twitter Simon Molloy passed away. He apparently had an extended battle with colon cancer. He'd been working at media matters for about fourteen years. And. He has a, a family with, with kids and whatnot. And so there's a go fund me to help support his family. And also a donation to the colorectal cancer alliance. So we've placed that on the on the, the blog, and on, we'll put it in the podcast description, sad. Someone that young in particular, obviously with, with children pass away and appreciate the, the work that he did. Bill. Shame. So check that out. Meanwhile. Let's, let's turn to something that is. We'll raise your spirits just a little bit more instead. People are still apparently interested in Steve Bannon, Steve Bannon headed to Europe extensively to sort of expand the Breitbart empire. Right. Wasn't that his agenda? Well, it wasn't bright part. It was his empire has a global fascist as global fascist strategist, but wasn't he going to do this as part of the part of Breitbart anymore? He's not. He was kicked out of Brian. That's right. Simply dart all seen as the moving. Right. Okay. So he's got this movement. Anyone over to Europe to see couldn't jump start fascism over there. He having had jump started here, and it may be not going necessarilly the way that he wanted it to. Or maybe he knows that we gotta go tit for tat tit for tat back and forth. Every now and then he rears his head and media just jumps at the opportunity to talk to him. I think maybe we are ending that era. Now, that is, what is most interesting me about this, this moment here from the axios show. Jonathan swan coming off of his conversations with the boy prince Jared Kushner. Apparently interviews. They in an elevator quite sure what's going on here? But they seem to be no. Okay. They're not an elevator some type of press conference. So here's John, that's want asking a Steve Bannon how his program to turn a Europe fascist is going our told you about something that you told the New York Times, you said, you would offer populace potties across Europe, the quote, fundamental building blocks for winning including expertise in polling data. Analytics messaging and get out the vote along with the development of media sour gets campaign will runs or response quite a plan. You had there have you executed. We got our lawyers involved and with election laws in Europe, I'm not so sure that we can actually provide that how how many campaign warms, did you set up? We had our overall were room but. We've we were told we couldn't do the worms either. It sounds like given anything positive. This is this is such a wonderful shot. Steve Bannon is got hanging out and we. Well, we didn't we had an overall war room. But that one we had to establish in space, because we weren't allowed to do it on European territory. I guess, and here he goes, we set up a digital rang go back just a little bit here because I love yet Google da. You know, the editor was like do check out this cut, as soon as you says, you haven't done anything I'm going to go to him with his belly hanging out for the first time and interview good. You executed. We got our lawyers involved and with election laws in Europe, I'm not so sure that we can actually provide that how we how many campaign warms, did you set up? We had our overall were room, but we, we were totally couldn't do the worms either. It sounds like given down. No, no. That's absolutely not true. If you go back and talk to individual parties, we've done tremendous who should we talk to? What do you think Salvini would say, I think they'll be said, hey, these guys are solid guys, and they've given us a lot of overall vice. So we spoke to Salvini Salvini said he's spoken to you twice, and he's still. Bailey notice you. I mean. True salvini. He said he's always spoken twice. I think maybe three or four times we've talked to Salvini three or four times. I think it's cynic might say okay Steve Bannon Trump poached in from American politics, cutting cutting off at the legs. And now he's taking his show to a monastery. He's hanging out in the monastery trying to get crowds in Europe. I mean, is this just because you don't have relevance in American politics, by the way, I think I have a lot of robots. It's provable shots in the pacing are kind of reminiscent of the office there it, honestly, that was a fascist David Brent. You in a monastery now. I mean Jesus. Yeah. There is that reminds me actually there was a. Harry Enfield did a mock documentary in nineteen ninety. Called sir Norbert Smith. And it is about an aging. British actor. And for I think, for the British it, it was basically light parody for, for an American. It was more satirical, because you don't know the specific references so things become a little bit broader, and it was there was a moment way. Had an interview where he was on an interview program that was reminiscent of that. And there's a British tradition of this, where the guy is saying to the, to the to the actor like who's clearly been drinking, and looks like Bannon in this. The look at you. You're a mess. I don't think so. Well, I see you smell, I can smell you from here. Well, that's too bad and I've been having an affair with your wife and she's a wonderful lover. Oh, good was basically, very reminiscent of that. But Steve Bannon, hopefully that's the last time we will ever cover anybody covering Steve Bannon because I think that era has ended it was a blip in our, but he was on just two weeks ago on CNBC tag teaming with Thomas Friedman about China policy. So if there's one thing Steve Bannon is good at its media exposure. And if there's one thing lead meat is good as exposing the absolutely no values or sets of his, yes. But hopefully hopefully we're nearing the end. Well, we'll see how he does when he gets into the Buckfast the what? Oh, it's like this gross alcohol made by monks. Oh, I see well. He may already be there folks wanted today. Sponsors is skill share anyone who goes to S, K, L, dot S, H slash majority report four. It's going to get two whole months of totally free access to skill shares entire library of super quality online courses, and tutorials skill share is a vibrant online learning community that offers courses on everything from design video, editing photography business. Technology cooking meditation and everything in between. Their skill share courses for everyone. You'll have no problem finding courses that will be useful to you both in your personal and professional life. I've been taking some cooking little classes. Picking up tips, everywhere, I go, and I'm getting into like the data analysis stuff for work. That's interesting. Yeah. We'll see. Data. They have courses data. They have courses for entrepreneurs courses for computer coding, web development, personal nutrition learning new languages, Photoshop, you name, it Chamie could learn, you could brush up on your Spanish. I've been. See, like there you go. It's already getting better. I'm I'm also planning to get to lucid dreaming thing. I had nightmares last night, but I'm gonna check out that lucid dreaming. That's what I really need to do. You absolutely should do that. You can get two entire months of free access to every single course, offered by skill share by going to s K, L dot S, H slash majority report for, we got a link, of course, in our podcast, description, and under YouTube, just think of everything, you'll have at your fingertips for two whole months. That's S. K L. Dada h slash majority report for check it out. All right. We're gonna take quick break. When we come back. Ryan grim. Toyota many colors, so wounded. Duck. My older. Brother. Suppose? Close to they want to know. Miss them. Most. The most. Most. We. So. We are back Sam cedar on the majority report on the phone. It is a pleasure to welcome back to this program. Are you the Washington bureau chief of the intercept? That's right. Washington bureau, the Washington bureau chief of the intercept, and the author of of many books. His most recent is from Jesse Jackson to Joe cord Qazi, Cortez, the end of big money and the rise of a movement. We've got people. It just occurred to me that you're like your. The book that you wrote on drugs was has almost like that projects almost over. Well, this is my sequel to that in some ways. But you're right. You know, and the that book was magic in a way that it managed to completely transform the conversation without anybody actually having bought it, sometimes the cover can just do that. That's right. That's right. Best cover in the last hundred years in literary history. This I was just telling you off air that I'm really enjoying this. I mean it is because a lot of this, not all of it, but, but a significant amount of it was contemporaneous from when I basically entered into politics and began to sort of have some access to some of the players in this book, and, and certainly people who we're talking and stuff that I just had no idea. Was going on, you know, and it's interesting. I mean, it's, it's super interesting, and we'll go through it just let's start with. We've got people is. It's a specific quote, isn't it? Right. Yeah. Ripped off from the kind of climactic line in out the NGO Kazu Cortez's viral campaign ad in her. She said something like, you know, it her campaigning Joe crowded. This is a contest about money versus people. They've got money. We've got people and like so much, what does she's great at like stealing things down. And I, I heard that phrase, we've got P. They've got money. We've got people like that, basically, you know, put that to a point on the coverage that I've been doing the Democratic Party and, and, and the resistance within it for the last twelve years or so. And so. Yeah, so I lifted three words of it for the title when when you look at the these twelve years, that you did the coverage and you start the book during Jesse Jackson's campaign. I mean his first one, I guess was in eighty four. But you know, eighty comes pretty close. And then I wanna go back, but just to keep it just a little general like is this, a story of because it seems to me, there's two sort of parallel tracks that are more or less aligned, but not completely aligned of, of ideology within the party or with, like sort of a disposition within the party. Do you know what I'm saying by that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And I think by disposition you kind of the fighting spirit, yes, the, the willingness to take risks to say what you really believe to put it out before they backed people, and, and trust and trust in their judgment versus the, the parallel generation of people like Nancy Pelosi Steny Hoyer and Chuck Schumer. Or who lived through the Reagan years, and internalize, the idea that we live in this irredeemable conservative center, right country? And that the only way for Democrats cling to some modicum of power is to pretend that they're somewhat conservatives as well. And so it creates. Different disposition. It's been interesting going on this book tour and talking to people who actually read the book, which is very flattering, and so many of them just say, why won't these Democrats fight. It's not even that they are, are pining for them to, to win even necessarily there's one. It's one them to fight for something if you if you put up a fight, and you lose, you know, at least at least you went for it, and there's some dignity and that, but that's the guy, I think this position is, is a good way of putting it. Well, I, I mean, I, I want I want to circle back, but let's have part of this conversation. Now I mean, because, you know, during the net roots years right when you basically started reporting and more or less when I entered into, you know, doing whatever it is. I do here. You didn't in part of it was because it was during the Bush years. Right. And, and, and it's sort of flattened out any differences. Amongst Democrats from an ideological perspective. Right. Like I right. I mean, I just remember like this like gone on me like, oh my God when I was talking with Jonathan alter in a green room and MSNBC and he's saying, I don't understand why people are being so chased about social security, and I was like, why'd you, you wrote it. You wrote a biography about FDR you kidding me? Like I had no idea that you were that open to cut it. You know. But, but we didn't talk much about ideological differences. E fifteen years ago, twelve years ago, it was, you know, you'd say, good democrat, bad, democrat, you would say fighting democrat non fighting democrat like how much of that disposition is it, and then I want to go back to, to, to the Reagan years, but how much of that disposition was is or how much of that disposition is just simply disposition. I'm cowed, and I just, you know, and now I have a ten year I learned some lessons. You know as, as a as a newbie in those lessons have stock versus ideologically. I'm actually sort of this way, and I use the disposition as a way of not having to deal with that. I think it's entirely related to ideology, and the way that you can prove that in a way is to take a look at somebody like Rahm Emanuel. You know, he's he's known as a fighting democrat, you might have been in that off the record private blogger meeting, and I think two thousand five with a Bill Clinton, where he said, I don't understand why you bloggers tough on wrong. He's, he's really fighter. But who he was a fighter against was the left. Right. So he got so that they do know how to fight democrat Democratic Party knows to this day knows how to fight look at the triple C and the lengths that it's willing to go to, to crush insurgent primary challenges before they even launched. And so, when when the opportunity to go after the less services, then all of a sudden, they're disposition changes, and they do become these, these fighting liberals. And so that leaves me conclude there that the disposition is really just a piece of ideology that they could they do know how to fight, but they're just accustomed to not fighting for the less rather rather against the left. Right. And but I, I, I don't know if that's still fully answers my question as much as like they're afraid to fight the right because your argument is during the Reagan years, and it's, it's interesting to pay it at the Reagan years, because I think a lot of times, you know, like ten or fifteen years ago, we would've pegged to Macau McGovern. Maybe even more recently. Right. Like this was the lesson that living out from governor era. And that's why we called it hippie punching instead of, like, you know, punching to the left, it was hippy punching at that time, ten fifteen years ago we referred to that beating up on the left. Extensively like the way that they did it. But why, why is it the Reagan era? I mean, I remember going into college in having my government professor, the government professors address us on day, one saying there's been a real realignment, who's nineteen Eighty-four is the second election, there's been a realignment in this country. And there's been a monumental shift in the identification political identification of the American public. It was that, basically, what scarred a lot of these people. Yes. And I think it's totally fair to link McGovern to that, like that was the precipitating event. And, and certainly you still hear them today. Like talk about McGovern like like literally to this day they will mention you know, if if we do exit just can be McGovern all over again. But Mondale lost you know extraordinarily badly as well. And the reason I focused more on the Reagan era is because not just, you know, it wasn't justed McGovern lost you know, but you still had kind of Rockefeller and kind of Republican party at that time. So they, they everything they stood for wasn't being, you know thoroughly rejected whereas in the nineteen eighties. This was the rise of the new, right? You know, this like insurgent Republican class comes in, in the nineteen seventy eight been terms. That's when Newt Gingrich's first elected, then followed by Ronald Reagan who's a new kind of Republican. And at the same time, Democrats are rethinking what their posture is toward their own coalition and toward particularly big money in corporate money. And so it's in that it's in that era that they that they kind of reinvent themselves as this, what becomes Quinn, Tony and party. So that's why I thought it was more more interesting to focus on the on the eighties. And also because yes like Pelosi and Puertas others, they did lift through McGovern. But they were they were more in it. When when Reagan was was stopping them. They were Hoyer was, I think elected in nineteen eighty one and a special election Pelosi was already a major fundraiser, Chuck Schumer it was elected to the house in nineteen eighty dick Durbin in nineteen eighty two Barney Franken eighty. So these people are all kind of coming into their own and their professional prime at that at that time, where there watching every. Chains underneath them. And I think it was like, Tony. Hello. I can't wait. Yeah. Quite low. He gets he becomes d triple c chair, after the nineteen eighty election on the very explicit argument that the problem Democrats had wasn't political or ideological. Well, it wasn't ideological. If it wasn't structural. It was just that they got out. They got outgunned by Republicans who figured out how to raise more money and they figure out how to pump that money into negative campaigning and thirty second hands dirty tricks and so what Democrats needed to do. He argued was developed what he called a pack strategy, which just means fundraising today, and go to corporate America get a ton of money, higher heart consultants, like Republicans did, and run the same types of, you know, dirty tricks campaigns with thirty second negative ads and just match dollar for dollar and just kind of keep keep filling the put keep putting your fingers dyke that way. And that was almost like the, the seed that ended up creating the democratic leadership council. And this whole wing. Now. How conscious you remember they want an eighty two huge midterm wave after Reagan. So they're like, oh, this is it. We got it. We figured it out figure this out, I thought, let me ask you how much was that? How much awareness was there in how much debate was there around that time as to the implications of getting democratic money that way, right? Like because you could be an awareness of like, I wanna get us in bed with corporate America where it could be like, oh, I'm just going to go, you know, hang out with corporate America, but I won't get in bed with them. I'm just going to take their money. Right. But, but inevitably what happens is one thing leads to another. You take their money and then have a couple of drinks and then things lead. One thing leads to another and then you're in bed with them. And then you're in bed with. Yeah. The argument they made was your was along those lines that quote said, look, yes, we lost the house. I mean, we lost the Senate, we lost the White House, but we still control the house and they, they thought they had basically permanent control of it because of the, the structure of, and the popularity of a lot of these longtime Democrats. And so their argument was we're not doing. We're not compromising ourselves here. We're not giving anything to corporate America but we control the house of representatives, and so they need to pay up like that's how this new system works like if, if they want their legislation considered if they want to meet with us, if they want to be part of the tax reform that we're going to do you know all the other work that we're going to do with the public and Senate Reagan administration than they need to ante up, and that's how they sold it as not being corrupting. It's just exploiting the power. Power that you already have the force that weaker entity to the pony up. But there was what what I gathered in my reporting. There was a lot of pushback internally, but the people who were doing the pushback. Didn't have either. They didn't have an alternative idea or they didn't have the power to implement an alternative idea. What is quite low say today about that? He says he has this great quote, where he says, we didn't. We weren't we didn't necessarily sell out. It was more that we were bought in was his phrase, and it's actually, as he kind of parts it. It's an interesting thing about it. That's a more. Right. He's saying that, like we wouldn't, hey, a pile of cash and do something for it. But all of our strategic legislative thinking was constrained and guided by the right the tax strategy that we were taking that you're doing a housing Bill and, you know, this particular company or industry doesn't really like it going in this direction. And then you don't you don't even need to talk to them. You just kind of don't go in that direction. You, you, you pursue the path of least corporate resistance wherever you can. And so that ends up just corrupting the process but without a direct quid pro quo. You know, cash rape particular line of legislation. Did did he did he express regret? I only ask you only focusing on something, this is sort of small because I think that dynamic that you've just described is really. The, the, the hinge that all of this turns on, right. He's a he's a lobbyist now. So no. Like he he and a lot of the others feel and it's not an obvious question. But so he and the other others feel like there was nothing else that they could do. Right. They feel like they, they were facing the, the fascist like they were at the gates. They're inside the gates and the, the new deal coalition had broken apart. And that, you know, without a new coalition to put together, this was their only choice and that they did this. They made some you know, difficult compromises to save Republic from complete collapse, though, that no there, there is not much regret. Now, people who people who say that people will will acknowledge that people that talking from that area, the knowledge, yet it was a lot more corrupting or it was as, as corrupting people predicted that it would be. And more corrupting than defenders said it would be. But many of them will still say, but there wasn't necessarily another option. Now, I the only other option would be to get thrashed. And then come back from the ashes reconfigured in a different way. Right. I mean, because that then got thrashed anyway. Right. All right. Well then, so all right. So go forward to, to, to Jesse Jackson because I mean, one can only imagine like if the internet had existed in one thousand nine hundred eighty six right like what our history might be very, very different in, in a way. But go ahead. Right. I mean, just tell us what happens Jesse Jackson there and Jerry into that point, Jerry Brown. Remember in nineteen Ninety-two ran kind of an insurgent campaign against Clinton and it used to give his eight hundred number. Yeah. He would he would take more than one hundred dollars from anybody. And there was a problem during a debate or if I remember correctly to right. Like they tried to get him like you can't say you're eight hundred number. He goes, I can't say my eight hundred number Jerry Brown. You know, whatever it was. I can't remember what they were like we do you can't do that. I just did it. You know. I like the way that, you know, Bernie said go to Bernie Sanders dot com as it was, you know, very reminiscent of that. But Jesse didn't have that and to your point, so Jesse Jesse Jackson, and I would have called the book from how Washington to AFC, if more people had heard of how Washington he was the. Yeah. Tell that story. He was mayor of Chicago. Yeah. So he, he runs as an insurgent, he's a member of congress had the backing of democratic socialists of America young, young lords, like a ton of radical and insurgent elements of Chicago politics. They, they run to take on the machine with Jesse Jackson as like lead campaigner and during an I interviewed Jackson about this, and, and he said that he got wind that Ted Kennedy and Walter Mondale, we're gonna come in and endorsed daily, and Jackson, begged them. He said, just stay out like you have no idea that the vibrancy of this movement that we're running like, we don't need your endorsement, but just, you know, just don't come in and bring the two most well-known Democrats that country in Dorset, opponent and, and candy said, look, we're. Old family friends, we don't have a choice. We've got we've got to do it. And Jackson said he thought to himself this this this needs to change. But he's close something like this is liberalism is not liberating. And so they started. He started seeing himself and seeing that movement in direct conflict, with, with the party stab, which even the kind of liberal heavyweights the of the party, they wind up winning the primary, and then the entire Chicago democratic machine flips, and literally campaigns for the Republican in the general election and Washington manages to win the general election, but only by four points in a city that's ninety two percent democratic and then they and then they spend the next several years going to war with the machine that still controlled the council for a little while so out of that campaign, Jack. Ackson and other black leaders around the country, get together and say, you know, we need to we need to do the same thing at the presidential level because there's just no other way that we're going to get people to pay attention Joe to our interests. And so he runs in very late campaign. Nineteen eighty four that, that does apprising Lee. Well, even though he got in, you know, I think after some of the caucuses already started, and so then he runs an eight as a as a serious contender echoes of Bernie starting the protests candidate, and then getting serious and. More than thirty five primaries and caucuses into the race. He dishes, this stunning upset out to Dukakis and Dick Gephardt in Michigan, and all of a sudden, like Dick Gephardt, drops out, and it's just Jackson and Dukakis in basically delegate tie, and the democratic style. In Washington, has a complete and utter meltdown at the prospect that Jesse Jackson might actually become the, the Democrats to be at this point. And then what happens? Okay. They the, the whole fury party comes down on him and, and, and they and they explicit that the country's not ready to, like the black man. Hey, be to be too liberal and see it's not only with lose the, the, the presidential election. But basically, the end of the Democratic Party. So if, if he's the if he's the nominee that, that the were the phrase is coming out of Washington, just absolutely apocalyptic. And he was pulling ahead coming out of Michigan. He's now surging into Wisconsin and polling significantly headed if he wins, Wisconsin. Then then he's on a roll with momentum heading into the convention and and despite the the big polling lead. He winds up losing pretty badly in Wisconsin, one of the one of the first examples of pollsters, telling people that they're going to vote for the, the black candidate and then and then not doing. So when they get into the, the polling place and so from there he say's but for about about week and a half it the, the country was, you know, facing the real possibility that Jackson with would win the nomination and he was doing it on the back of this argument that kind of liberalism was inflicting economic violence on the working classes, white black and Brown and that the only way like back was to was to unite fun like farmers who are suffering for farm prices in factory workers and everybody else against the growing power of capital and Ronald Reagan. So all right. So I just want to sorta like disaggregated a couple of things because there's, there's sort of an almost an analogous to track type of fight, that's going on here that sort of similar to the one that we talked about, you know, at the top of this interview, which is, you know, in the case of, of Washington and on some level in the case. Of Jesse Jackson, but it's it gets a little bit a muddled because, you know, the idea that I mean, I think there were probably people who I'm not I'm not being an apologist for this, but I think there were people who probably. Sincerely, felt like the country's not ready to elaborate a black man to be president in nineteen eighty eight. And we've got to get rid of. You know, I, I mean, I remember quite distinctly this election. We've got to get rid of Reagan, even though it's George Herbert Walker Bush who's running, it's still the Reagan era, people perceived it that way. And there was this sort of, like immediacy, but there's two things that are going on here other well, in the Washington case makes it a little more explicit. Like how much of that was this guy's not part of our network. And so therefore, we don't like him versus this guys. So, you know, his politics because this also that the her Washington thing reminds me a little bit of Martha Coakley when she ran for Senate in Massachusetts. Now she came from the west and, you know, Massachusetts, there is a very much of an old boy network in Massachusetts politics, in, my understanding is that they basically said, we're not gonna give her support in the general election against Brown like we're just walking away and. And that I don't think was a question of as much as like as much as politics because I don't think our politics, particularly ideologically different from these sort of these, these establishment politicians in Massachusetts, but it's just like, hey, wait a second. We're not going to be the ones to get the largess like we're not gonna get the job. We're not gonna have the ability to call people and say, hey, I want that low license plate number, whatever it is. Like that's like how much of it is just a machine that is distinct from, you know. Ideology, and how much of it is ideology when you see this dynamic at play. So he had all three things going for him or going against them, depending on how you see it. You know part of its race deeply racist. Say on all American cities are racist goes, especially, so, you know, particularly in that in that in that era ideologically, like he's he had the support of the DFA because he because they recognize that he kind of aligned with a lot of their with a lot of their politics and he was talking about, he, he ran on firing the police chief for Iran against police brutality, you know, and he ran against the, the kind of economic interests that ran the city. And and so there definitely was an ideological gap between him and, and the machine and then third the. The he had seen that you talked about this, this. He wasn't one of them like he was. Yeah. In a city that is run on spoils like they were going to be no spoils to hand out. You know, you know, and it's one of the most old school machines out there, you know. Right. You know how you vote determines whether or not you get your trash picked up and so that, so that was huge part of it, too. But it wasn't just that like with Martha Coakley. I think you're right. It's more like it's just faith. It's basically just add, they're real. They, you know the rest is them. Right. They don't care. But in this case. It was all of all of it. And there's also that parallel we should also say jumping ahead again. But you wrote a piece about, you know, the, the twenty eighteen primaries, that talked about the d triple c coming in, and basically, you know, being at odds with, with, with local folk running for office or trying to recruit candidates. And, you know, I combined that, that the reporting you did there with the, the I think it was status. Gobble, and Lena Putnam. I think I'm getting her name. I think there was one other person who did similar research, and they're the stories were similar, you know, some of it involved ideology. But some of it was just like, hey, we're the experts, and we come from, you know, Washington, we know what we're talking about, and you're going to do what we say, because also this is our business like this is how. You know, we throw money to certain consultants, and then when I move onto my next job, they get me my next job, or they helped me out, or their social friends. I mean, people experienced this in their real lives all the time. It's just that the stakes are a little bit less public e. Yeah. And the best example of that would probably be Laura Moser in that Texas primary, because she was not an insurgent leftist candidates. You know, she was part of the resistance. She launched daily action at that, that let people make, you know, single tax or single phone call day to resist Trump. She was pro Pelosi. She was just a fairly, you know, liberal Democrat. But her husband worked, for revolution messaging the consulting firm that kind of worked on the Bernie Sanders campaign, which meant that it was the black sheep of the democratic consulting world. And when they attacked her publicly then and then, you know, this, this made big news. It was so strange that this democrat, the digital see was attacking Temeke. Democrat publicly one of their most significant takedown points of her was that she had used her husband's consulting firm for some for some work, which was just a Larry's charge for the teachable. See to may because the. The executive director. Dee triple C's wife was at the time getting a bunch of contracts from the detail. See. And this is like, that's, that's how the teacher will see. Right. Does that not an awfully? That's just what you do. And the fact that they highlighted that to me was tell that, that it was that it was about the consultants like you said, this is she was not using one of us. This, this is a threat to the you know, if revolution doesn't just do Bernie Sanders campaign, but starts doing winning house campaigns then that's a threat to the whole teachable. See consulting next. This is that's important. I mean, I think thing for people to keep in mind that, that, you know, I think we tend as, as people who follow politics are engaged because of ideological reasons. Presume that everything is. That, that, that based on ideology when sometimes it's just based on. I just want my friends to be able to get paid because that means that I get paid at one point. And that is, that's I think, important thing to understand at least in terms of when you're looking at this stuff. And it also like you know, which is gets back again, to that central the hinge of, of, of your of your reporting here in this book. Is that where you get your resources from ends up being a huge part of every decision that, that you're able to make at any given point. And I, I don't want to skip too much over the dean era. But in many respects, he was the one Jerry Brown tried it. But dean in the internet age it seems to me. Built the framework for. I'm not saying he himself, but the people on the campaign built a framework for the small donors in so many of the people that influence our politics today in some way. Particularly on the left and the more populous arguments came out of that campaign. Right. Right. And, and he sits with what you were talking about. Less ideological fighting spirit. Like he he himself wasn't terribly. Progressive he that way because he was he was anti war is from Vermont. He was doctor who was into universal healthcare. And so you take those things together. And you're like this guy's probably progressive. We've since learned that, that's not necessarily the case. But he was one of the few people who was willing to willing to go right at Bush, when Bush was at the height is, is war popularity and so that, that willingness to fight as what is what gathered so many people around him. And I think that's a big difference between his campaign and Jackson's, and, you know, Jackson didn't have the ability to translate all of the energy that exploded around him into small dollars that could then be invested in TV ads and building. The infrastructure of national Pam. Pain. Whereas whereas dean did have that. And so it took him from a huge long shot of a candidate to the front runner, and presumed nominee for awhile, and there was craft society wasn't electable. That's another story. Well, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting story, too. I mean insofar as the, you know, the there was intense dislike of dean on the, on the campaign bus, as it were like the press didn't like him, there was that was, where sort of. And again, like you know this point can't be made enough. Dean is a perfect example of this dean was rather conservative, at least from a financial standpoint, and as governor of Vermont, and the dislike the dislike for him was, in many respects like the fact that. His campaign was the birth of I think like the amateur journalists in the, you know, the, the activists journalists that came with the blogs that the press really hated at that time. I mean really? Yeah. With a white hot passion. Right. It's, it's hard to quite appreciate how much they hated bloggers at that time. I mean you can kind of send some of it just in rhetoric around the pajamas and sitting in their mom's basement eating Cheetos, but yeah, they felt like and also you know, it was all bound up in the they felt the collapse of the print journalism industry and the most obvious, and easiest people to blame would be the bloggers, you know, rather than he'll Craigslist and all the other, you know, threats to, to the print, the print industry. They saw these people as the ones that were that were driving them driving them out of business, and it just a couple of punk kids, but no idea what they're doing as far as the press was concerned, and it wasn't even just from a business point. 'cause I'm even think they were aware of what was happening from a business standpoint. It was a status thing like you and I you, you know. I Marcos militias, but forget, Marxist me, mellitus. You I'm trying to think of what Nate silver's. You know, handle was like a POC. Oh, something or something on. You don't have the same authority to talk about politics as I do. And the idea that, you know, people are reading, you know, atrios and, you know, some guy, you know, whose name we don't even know. And you know, are quitting. You know. Atrios with me, who works in the New York Times disgusting like I mean it was literally type like personal to the point where people thought that atrios was. Joe? What's Joe Klein? I think it was because they because they wanted to imagine like there's no way just some some boob is writing with this level of insight and right? So that's what happens going forward from there. And, and that's where everything starts to take off, right. Like the blogs that are empowered by dean dean was empowered by the blogs in many respects. And those people start to infiltrate different offices, and the biggest, I think, sort of like dynamic change from politician because of that seems to me, you write about is Harry Reid. Yeah. And I always gotten that sense. And so it was it was nice to talk to him about that and kind of walk him through it without prompting him. And he said, yeah, he he saw. He went to the first yearly coast conference. And he said he, he said, I didn't quite know what this whole thing was about. But I can tell that it was it was going to be big that there was energy around it. It was something new and important. And I wanted to be on the front end of it rather than, you know, the middle or the end of it, and spend any ends up. Yeah. Hiring people out of that I out of the blogosphere into his into his office, and they start using the office of the majority leader eventually has, as, in a weaponized way that the left has always said, you know, that, that political power should be should be wielded bunch of those folks now on the, on the Bernie Sanders campaign and, and read very much shifted last on a whole host of issues. You know, through his interactions with the with these bloggers. Turn staffers. And I don't think people understood like he was he was the guy who I think during to the extent that any democrat takes responsibility for protecting social security during the Obama us because I think a lot of credit frankly goes to the freedom caucus, because they would they could not make a deal. To even though they could not take. Yes for an answer. But to the extent that anybody does hurried, not only changed, and, and you write about in terms of marriage, equality, ultimately, and don't ask, don't tell repeal which people forget was repealed, less than ten years ago, I guess now. He was also adamant about social security and yeah. There was a conflict with him and Joe Biden. Tell us about that one. Oh, yeah. That was an and that goes to Biden's, you know, profess you know, calling card. We know he's talks about how he can work with Republicans. And, you know, there was a particular moment after the twenty twelve election where all of the Bush tax cuts were expired, 'cause they had used reconciliation, which means you're legislation can only be in place for ten years. That's, that's the that's the you have to give to get the fifty fifty vote threshold. And so if Democrats did nothing then all of the Bush tax cuts would expire and so Reid was driving pretty hard bargain with McConnell. And as he told me in. In a later interview, that's because he actually intended to go over the cliff and let the tax rates go back up because then his argument was now we're talking about tax cuts. The taxes have going back to their original spot now. Okay. You want some tax cuts. Let's talk tax cuts. Let's do. Let's do a middle class tax cut and make it a huge middle class tax. Cut trillions of dollars. I'm good with that, and McConnell would have to be calling for a, a huge tax cut for the rich and read felt like especially with the bombers, twenty twelve reelection. They were in a good spot to, to argue that. And at the last minute, he gets yanked out of it the White House, and they send in Joe by and Joe Biden. In in, like a day or two cuts far worse deal than McConnell had even already agreed to like McConnell had already agreed that taxes on everybody over to fifty two making fifty a year would go back up and they were and they were sorting out the details from there. And as we know it was going to let them go over and probably wouldn't even give them that much. But by comes in and basically wipes out the estate tax and says, everybody making four hundred and above, you know, so everybody between two fifty and four hundred gets gets saved by by them. Read was like, I'm going to sell you this car for twenty five grand and Biden comes into I'll take care of this. I'm going to sell you this guy for twenty two grant. Mcconnell already said, well, I'll take the car for twenty five grand, but I also want car stereo, and bind comes it goes, I'm gonna give you the car stereo, and I'm gonna give you the contrary to grid. And so some colleges reaches on the desk, takes us three grand back. Exactly says thanks. But okay. Why did Biden do that? So. That's a good question. Part of it is, he's not very good job. I don't think he's, he's very lazy. Like, that's, that's a big knock on him, another is that he spends a lot of time with rich people, and so to him, like, maybe increasing taxes on people on the, on the two hundred and fifty thousand dollar that you make on a year with seemed onerous just loves striking deals with McConnell and Republicans. You know, and he also wasn't too concerned about doing a lot legislatively. So read wanted one reason, you know, one reason read wanted to bring in that extra revenue, is that they're in an era of pay go where all of the spending, you know, had to be offset somewhere with some sort of revenue increase or elsewhere. And so. So, you know, letting the Bush tax cuts expire gives you a ton of revenue that you can apply to, to new to new spending programs so that and read one of do that. But by in the White House didn't seem that they, they were very pessimistic about their -bility getting things done getting through congress. So they what good is revenue anyway. But yeah, it's I asked read that exact question he said, you'd have to ask Joe. All right. Well so that I mean that, that takes us up. Let's, let's briefly, you know, we're, we're little bit. I appreciate your, your hanging with me here. So we go through this and really, in many respects, Sander Sanders starts his campaign as an as a as an issue campaign. He does much better than he thought he would it seems to me, and it seems somewhere around January of twenty seventeen or twenty eighteen six use me sixteen. He realizes like I could win this, but it's basically too late in many respects for him to, you know, you needed to go back in time and have had laid some groundwork for because winning a campaign is extremely difficult. But what comes out of this is a huge mass of energy that gets dispersed into different organizations. And. Different techniques of raising money, and it shows that someone can go and raise money without having to have corporate interests. And let's just just tell us the story about the Justice dams which came out of which is like, I don't know a third generation or second generation sort of Sanders people, and, and what, what decision they made that ultimately proved to be the right one. Yeah. What was what was cool about this crew? Is that a normal campaign wouldn't have hired really any of them the most parts, but the Sanders campaign and Becky bond is one of them talk to me about this that, you know, they, they had a real hard time, hiring professional campaigners consultants because anybody who works for the Sanders campaign was going to be blacklisted Clinton dominated party going forward. You know Jeff Weaver came out of, you know, he'd gone to run a comic book shop retired from politics and came back to, to run the campaign. And then this, this crew that gets into what, what they end up calling distributed organizing, which is basically taking the Sanders, volunteer army, and putting them to work doing, you know door knocking text messaging house parties, and, you know, turning all that. Energy into voter contacts that team is people like Becky bond, and that actually both Zack in particular was influence with influential Medine campaign. So, like you said like the very a lot of the very same people who were involved in the beginning, where are still doing a lot of this today, then you had Corbin Trent who is a food truck food truck operator in Tennessee. And you had short contractor Bharti who left Silicon Valley. He was an engineer at stripe payment processor. He became he becomes like an engineer for this team. And then you had movement people like back mallets Claire Sandberg who like come out of occupy antiglobalization movement. Not, not the kind of a the typical like work for campaign work for a state legislative campaign, then, then a congressional campaign, the Senate campaign that a presidential. And so. Because of that they all thought very differently about how to organize a campaign, and they really had only figured it out. Like you said by January, something like eighty five ninety percent of the voter contacts that their operation made and they made millions tens of millions came after after January. So I'm too late for its work, but in, in twenty sixteen after the campaign is winding down they go out and they form this new group, they call brand new congress where they're trying to elect four hundred thirty five new members and they, they go to jank Wieger, and they say, hey, think, TY, T would wanna t y TV would want to support something like this. And he's like this idea that you're going to run Bernie stout candidates in the Republican primaries 'cause nice, but it's crazy. Because. Yes. The economic populism works with Republican voters, but they'd have to be anti choice they'd have to anti-gay like we're not we're not supporting candidates like that. That's not gonna work. That's crazy. He's like the Democrats. All right. That, that work. And so they say, well, what if we what if we split it up? And, and so they carved the Democrats out called them Justice Democrats, and jinx it, okay. That, you know that we can get. And so he you know, he promoted them heavily on t y t, and, and she why t- Kalinski as well got involved in that as well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Huge. And they pumped more than two million dollars, you know, to kind of get them off the ground, and then their idea that they were going to run these candidates in every district you know, didn't pan out. They wound up several dozen. And then. The all those several dozen most of them were struggling. And so they pivoted at at the end. Let's, let's pick one and go all in, and they, and they picked Okaz Cortez. And then she remained loyal to a lot of the to to the idea. And so, you know, her victory speech that nights, just talking about on a Presley and Corey Bush. And, and so they so they ended up winning a Presley Corey Bush, they did not. And so, so the they going for four thirty five I guess they wound up with a couple. No. They had also gotten in behind people like Rashid to leave, and you'll hung Amar in blue districts. But yes, so this was without the Sanders campaign. You absolutely do not get brand new congress or Justice Democrats, and you don't get the protests, of course, herself was an or in many. That ends up being a very smart decision, right? I mean to get her in ends up having, you know, the that's a one pound for pound that ends up being exponential win there. Yeah. So, okay, so alternately where do you anticipate a things going right now? I mean, because the idea is, and I know that you've described this aspirational the end of big money. And I you know, I heard you talk at a, a book, talk, and if anybody has the opportunity to go see it. Say it's a don't miss book talk, I should say, but where does that lead now? Because we've got Joe Biden does not represent that, right? We have many of the candidates who are struggling who started off, like I'm not gonna take. Or like maybe he is the end of big money. I mean, think about imagine you're the you're the donor class and you've already lost. Control of the Trump wing of the Republican party, and you're clinging, you're claiming here, relevance in the in the Democratic Party, and the man that you're putting out onto the field of battle in this, in this climactic final clash between the donor class and, and regular activists, your horses job, I'd there's, there's something symbolic in, in that, like it. It's it's Representative of the, the. The week position that donor class finds itself in that, that this is who they're who they're going to ride into into final battle. But like that if, if boaters democratic voters decide that he's the electable one, and then he's the Smart Choice to be Trump and it will be less the big money than more more that, that punditry that voters engage in that will put him over the top the only way that he stopped his if voters decide that actually, he's not electable that he's, he's a lousy campaigner that, that he can't, you can't take a political punch, and that, and that Trump would actually, you know, manhandle him in the in the general election, if, if the side that, then I think they start looking at some other options how how much are in we're sort of pivoting off the of the book a little bit here. But how much are the campaigns like, you know? I mean there was obviously a push the past week or two, it's hard to know which of these campaigns are out there, sort of, like actively making life miserable for, for Joe Biden, but I got to imagine that, you know last week, I think was. You know, the worst week that Joe Biden has had politically since he basically, was picked by Barack Obama to be his running mate. Where he had to reverse a position that he'd held for forty years after two days of criticism. Say like well because of the Republican like. It was a pretty lame cover story, actually a piece of a piece, the book rocking back a little bit, too. There was a I pulled up a few quotes from him in this in the seventies talking about, you know, I'm not I'm not responsible for what my ancestors did three hundred years ago. You know, this, you know, it's not it's not the white man's problem to, you know, he shouldn't have to give anything up because you know what happened so long the past, and then he said, you know, the two party system is clearly, going to be good for the negro in the south, which after the southern strategy like Nixon was already employing southern Republic. The, the second party strategy was to be more racist than the current party. And so. It was it was that was skeptical dubious claim to make the time and and has not been born out at all. So then you know that that kind of started him off. And then. And then he followed up with this Hyde amendment face plants which, which like, like that's like, if you are the electable guy might show that you're good at getting elected. Well, that is like the meta story. Right. Because with him, it's all the meta story. So every time he backs off a position. It shows weakness, there isn't been another candidate is far as I know that has had to back off a position, yet, or at least so publicly anyways, and he had to do that, because it suggested that he had some weakness. And when, when that starts to come out, it becomes self perpetuating. Right. If, if loses let's say he loses in Iowa. That's that is worse for him than it is for anybody else. Right. Because like you said like his whole thing that he's a winner in and he should win the nomination because he's a winner. And he will be Trump. But if you don't win in Iowa and you don't have anything else. Then it starts to fall in on it self. You at the book talk, you had an interesting assessment of Warren and Sanders in how you sort of, you know, come around a little bit on, on Sanders and people should understand that Elizabeth Warren for people hard generation, I'm older than you. But our generation terms of engagement in politics, you know, at least professionally Elizabeth Warren came out of nowhere, and deftly not only like Fahd off Republicans, but also fought off Democrats, as well, who were hesitant to allow her to have so much authority, which in many respects, she sort of just like finagled. In creating the consumer financial protection bureau. Just gimme your, your sense of how your assessment of both those candidates in senators has evolved. Yeah. The irony is that the, the centrist Twitter crowd is this calls me, Bernie bro relentlessly, which is ironic given what you said. And that our generation, you know, we watched, you know, we wanted someone to be, you know, to have that fighting spirit and to recognize that one of the problems with Democrats that they weren't hiding hard enough for what they believed in weren't. And, and so she comes in, and you know, her famous quote to the Huffington Post about the CFP. She was like, you know, asked about compromising particular element of it. And she said my first choice is a strong independent CFP be. And my second choice is for the Senate floor to be covered in blood and teeth. And that was her that was for that was her approach. And this is, you know, she's talking on the record here. He's not not her aid. Giving background quote and every time that they would try to weaken the PB you know, she would push back and there'd be there'd be public outrage over it, and they would back off the attempts to, to neuter it. And the fact that it got through at all is remarkable. The fact that got through with a single, you know, independent director and then funding that can't be cut off my congress is truly remarkable. And so we saw her doing that sort of thing going after Tim Lightner in public calling out, you know, Democrats and Republicans. And at the same time, didn't see Sanders involved in much in the life post two thousand nine Obama era fight. You know, he you know, he he ironically, the thing he got pounded, the most for in the in twenty. Sixteen primary is, is one time suggesting that somebody should primary Obama out of frustration over Obama's kind of deficit hawkish nece right in the twenty seven twenty seven period. But you know that was. Wasn't like he was an Elizabeth Warren was constantly pushing, so he got the worst of all worlds like he didn't. He wasn't really in it. But then he also got punished Adly for the primary, cause a bomber remain so so popular to burn his credit. He got some significant money for community health centers in in the Affordable Care Act. He got an audit fed Bill through with Ron Paul, but, but the on that he was kind of like a non factor. And he didn't use his position either to leverage media attention to progressive fights didn't organize progressives in the Senate to form a block to try to leverage, like one of the most important fights during that time was blocking Larry Summers from being fed chair. God knows what calamity the world was saved from by Jeff Merkley, and Elizabeth, Warren organizing progressive resistance to him and forcing Obama to drop them. And so for people like like me we watched it was warned doing all this. And then we see Sanders presidential campaign take off, like where's this coming from? And so it did take me a while to recognize kind of, in spite of what Sanders had done before, and also partly because of his consistency in what he'd been saying for so long and his and his this, the disengagement that I did like was a disengagement that also gave him an offense ity because he wasn't part of the system. And so it took me while to come around. I do a real movement had formed around him, and that he himself was beginning to recognize that, and that he was he stopped seeing himself as a gadfly. And so I'm self more as an actual political actor who, who is now on the world stage and had a chance to actually succeed in making some transfer. Of change. And so, I think it's been hard for a lot of people, my generation to make that turn and to see the new Sanders compared to the, the old one. Right. I mean, it really in many respects was like that, you know where he realized, you know, January of twenty twenty sixteen like, oh my gosh. I you know, like I he entered in as doing a an issue campaign. My understanding is he got in when he got in, because he wanted to make sure that Warren wasn't going to run. And it really pushed hard to run. And she didn't do it. She didn't do it in twenty in that in that cycle. Right. So he jumped in to talk about wealth inequality, and then realize that this really could resonate. Yeah. And it also helps explain why Warren ultra didn't endorse him because she like Sanders. They both thought that he was in there to raise the issues like I mean he was in there to raise the issues. And so if you're in there to raise the issues, and they both x they're exclusively to raise the issues not to win. Right. And right. She wanted to be able to maintain I mean, the, the, the power there, right, right? 'cause her whole her whole game was that. And she talked to Hillary twice privately about this thing, like, you know, I'm gonna go to war with you over personnel, choices, like if you try to, if you try to stack your cabinet with, with Wall Street types, that I'm gonna do everything I can, you know, in the Senate, the block them, but I also wanna be constructive, and I'll give you names of people who who I think would be good regulators. And so, we'll, let's we can do this. One or two ways. And so she was trying to keep some channel open between her and, and Hillary, I think, in hindsight, Hillary should have told her go ahead endorse Bernie, because then when she ultimately beat Bernie, you have to have Warren onstage, endorsing her after having endorsing Bernie, you know, would have had more credibility to it. Well, we could could we drop along of would've should as when it comes to Clinton's campaign, just I think frankly, taken Warren as her running mate would have been a smart move. And I and my understanding is that Warren was interested in that as well. But Ryan Grim. It's, it's fascinating. There's so much to be learned in the thing that I, I love about this is that, you know, and I would imagine even to some extent would have even more value to listeners is to. Be able to compare what I perceived was happening during throughout this era in, you know, as recently as months ago, most versus you know what deep reporting tells me was happening is very important so that people can have a really clear died assessment of what's going on. And what are the forces here? I it this stuff is it's really fascinating. And it the reporting is impeccable and I appreciate you coming on and telling us about it. That's nice. You say thank you. All right. We're gonna put a link up at majority dot FM. The book is, we've got people Ryan Grim. Thanks again. Ryan talked to you. Thank you. Bye-bye. It. Check it out, folks. Honestly, really? And I haven't gotten through all of it. It's long book, but really just really well reported and just sort of fascinating to fill in large, gaps that we have in our understanding of, of history that we have lived through. Because even when you read these reports contemporaneous, -ly, there's so much that comes at you to be able to sort of basically, you know, have a compilation of all this reporting and see a deeply reported with the. The, the, the value of twenty twenty hindsight and going back and asking more questions that were left open during the contemporaneous reporting, it really is interesting. And you know, important to understand as we go forward. Mean I've had people who ask me. I mean, this is not directly related to this, but we did touch on it. What's the best way to argue against Biden to people and the, the best way is I don't think he can win. Like I, he, he could win. But I don't think he could win. I mean, the you know, like I say, I would say risky risky choice making an elective -bility argument, well, my whole point about not making an elective -bility argument is that. Joe Biden, for the most part comes in. I, I am making not an elected -bility argument. I'm making an unelected -bility argument with, and it's well. Well, do yes, it is the argument. I'm not making it unelectable argument. I'm suggesting I'm making I'm generating unelectable propaganda. I mean. Gotta meet people where they are right. If the majority of people care about electability, it's time to build a case for his own electability. I would agree with that. And Thomas, Thomas Pickety, actually published a pretty interesting papers, some findings last year that the Democratic Party, of course ignored and he analyzed a ton of data not just from the US, but from countries in Europe saying that actually a centrist candidate is incredibly risky choice in this day and age. Yeah, I, I, I think framing it in the context of, of ideology. I mean is for a Biden supporter, his a mistake because I they clearly are not open to that which is why they've settled on Biden. I think it's more of like he's all over the place. He doesn't campaign hard. He's not the guy that, that people think he he's taking a lot of time off. In one thing say about Trump as he certainly loves the campaign by Nardi seems worn out. It's only a couple of weeks in, I would also say that, honestly like to have to, to. To reverse yourself on such a major issue so early like to be forced to do so suggests a me that he doesn't have a good sense of where he fits in politically, and that may be a big liability in the general boss, ker wrote a good piece for the guardian. But the title was if you care about beating Trump attack, Biden. I think good blueprint. Yeah. I think so. I mean, six months ago, the problem with making the elected -bility argument is that you end up creating bud right? Well, somebody who has Stoorikhel conditions change. I wish. Yeah. Right. Data if you have a ton of charts and graphs, like that Pickety report. Does I mean I don't know if these people are going to look at them, but at least you have something to offer rather than hutch. Yeah, but I don't think that people respond to data. I mean, most people I. I think that, like, you know, it is which is awesome. It's part of our new, no dad on the show. Paul, no doubt of talking. I'm talking the, the, the people who listen to this show care about ideology. They care about policies for the most part, and they are less likely to be people like I don't care what Joe Biden stands for. I just think he's definitely gonna win and. How you how you argue with those people is different than how you are argue with with others. It seems to me. Sure. But that could be your follow up book, arguing with others by Sam cedar that was actually in foo bar, but I could bring that around. How to something to that effect all like how to lose friends and alienate people. Yes. Okay. Right. Right. Folks, just reminder this program relies on your support. You can become a member by going to join the majority report dot com. Every day. Maybe every other day, some days, you listen to this show, you wonder, how is it? And it just shows up like this. Well, it's because of our members and you can be one of them for just pennies a day, joined the majority report dot com. Also, just coffee dot co op fair trade coffee, tea or chocolate, used the coupon code majority. Get ten percent off today's Monday tomorrow, Tuesday. Michael, what will happen to the very full show. Tomorrow night, boss car, soon Kara and then Burgess go both going to be in studio. We're talking about the ABC's of socialism, the Finland model the finish model probably talk about some electoral stuff in the beginning of the show, it'll be shorter interview, but Glenn Greenwald is going to be on to talk about this intercept report on the Lula case, which is Jaya robbing. I think probably mean definitely one of the most important stories in the world today if no collusion. Oh, actually, yes. Literal collusion. If, if there was this type of well, I don't wanna get we have police if time permits, we might touch on some other things I will say that, but it is going to be focused on this story. Primarily because this is one of the most important stories happening the world at this moment, basically, validating everything that people like me have been saying in a very disturbing way. All of that tomorrow, I will just make a really brief plug. I'm very proud of the elicit video histories. We do which are for patrons for comrade above patrons. And then they're unlocked, and the first one, that is available on YouTube channel is on the Jesse Jackson campaign rainbow coalition, which goes very nicely with the Grimm's interview as told by Bill Fletcher junior who worked on that campaign, patriot dot com slash TM BS. Michael Burke show on YouTube. Thanks, jamie. Ben Burgess did such a good job when I had him on the majority report that we had him on the anti Fatah this past weekend. And we talked about all kinds of things. Why the left needs logic and should not see that territory to tour like Ben Shapiro who aren't even good at logic. Why Marx was a super messy bitch who love drama. But that did not take away from the correctness of any of his arguments. I talk a little bit about my run in with an eel and musk fan. Boy and. We also talked with Ben in a bonus, that's going to be up for patrons about the YouTube controversy with, you know, Steven Crowder, homophobia, whatnot, and lots of other stuff. So check it out. Also, I cannot recommend enough history is a weapon, the last two parter that Sean Matt did on the nineteen seventies. I think it's a really good companion to a lot of what you talked about today with Ryan Grim and sort of the overarching political economic and social reasons for the neoliberal turn of the nineteen seventies. And it's got consequences that are still with us today. So check it out. Matt fighting games have begun. Literary hangover had its one year birthday actually. Oh. Angelique and we zoomed over two hundred patriots. Mainly because people really want these this, or Weller series. I'm doing on the works of the essays of George Orwell's V, nonfiction, and okay, there you go. And I can definitely the way to go. Yeah. And have begun. Each other. Okay. And. So, yeah, we did such joys, which we talked a little bit about how Orwell's dad made his money who sort of upper middle class because he worked for the opium trade. And that's that. Yeah. So he got to see that part of empire and we talked about or well at preparatory school, and how he's bay basically lies about an libels some of his teachers in order to pursue education reform. So he's a good role model is a quote. You're a pretender. I don't even remember where that came that sounds like Michael Cohen, sorta. All right, quick break six four six five seven thirty nine twenty see you in the fun half. Are in for it. All right, folks. Sixty five seven thirty nine twenty she in the. Does it? Alpha males. Buying on the alpha males back just. The album males of by back on out of the males. I just want to degrade, the white man for males. Males back. Males. Alba males. Total. We bring back the. Yeah. Or couple of put them in rotation these dents. Well, the problem with those is there like forty five seconds long. So I don't know if they're enough of the break. That's fucking not. On the alpha, males psych. Almost has what? What, what, what, what? What, what, what, what, what? Bank. Back. Back. Have you tried to impress on a college campus? I think that there's no reason why reasonable people cross the divide can't all agree with this psych males. Bye. Black. Males. Black. About their doesn't a little part. You think that American deserves to be taken over by jihadists keeping at one hundred. Birthday? You. I have for you. The album. Blacked out the males. Either pay the price. Total was.

Jesse Jesse Jackson Democrats Bernie Sanders Ronald Reagan Steve Bannon America Senate Europe Nancy Pelosi Steny Hoyer White House George Herbert Walker Bush Jerry Brown Bill Clinton Joe Democratic Party Washington Ryan Grim Google John dean Joe Biden
Jon Meacham

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

1:40:07 hr | 6 months ago

Jon Meacham

"Welcome welcome welcome to armchair expert experts on expert Monica Mouse. If you went to my body would you be excited to be small full of yes? There's so many things I would do if body switched. Yeah I'd run the closest mirror and get naked now. John doesn't want to be a part of that. Jon Meacham is our guest today. You've probably seen him on Bill Maher. That's where we've seen tontons great. He's a writer of. You're a presidential biographer. A former executive editor and executive vice president of Random House. He is a contributing writer to the New York Times Book Review a contributing editor to Time magazine in a former editor in chief at Newsweek. Yeltsin won the two thousand nine Pulitzer Prize for American Lion. Andrew Jackson in the White House he also has a new book called the hope of Glory Reflections on the last words of Jesus from the Cross and an exciting five part documentary podcast series hope through history so check out hope through history and please enjoy historian Jon Meacham. We are supported by legacy box legacy boxes a super simple melon service to have all your home movies and pictures digitally preserved on a thumb drive. Dvd or the cloud. Do you have home projects that you've been putting off? What's on your list cleaning? Out The garage digitizing aging tapes and photos legacy box can help you digitally declutter. It's the easiest way to check off this important shore because legacybox takes care of everything. I had a bunch of this stuff. Old photos some films. Vhs tapes you gotTA DIGITIZING BECAUSE THEY DETERIORATE. Yeah every minute you're losing precious material you really are just getting worse and worse and worse until you pop it in the legacy box. Send it off and they do the rest now. Legacy box is a way for you to easily affordably digitally preserve your pass. The process from start to finish is so easy. You Pack in. Send their team. Digitises everything by hand you enjoy. That's when you get back perfectly preserved digital copies on thumb drive. Dvd or the cloud rated to watch share and enjoy. That's my favorite part is once I'd digitize everything I could just send it to all my family members and save them step to brighten your day. Legacy box is currently offering an incredible forty percent off by today to take advantage of this exclusive offer. Senden when you're ready go to legacybox DOT COM SLASH DAX in. Save forty percent off while supplies. Last that's legacybox dot com slash tax. Chance John Hi how you doing good where we joining you. Are you a study in your home I am? I'm in Nashville Tennessee. I've been socially distancing for half a century so this is not that different from me. You're nice and practiced exactly now. Are you in the middle of? We'll tour no on composing. I am writing a little biography of John. Lewis in going back to my magnum opus. Which is a biography of Dali and James Madison I toggle between centuries. Yeah and how is your? Because you've been at this for a while and I have to imagine the digital revolution for you has saved your car a lot of miles to drive all around. Go like hidden libraries in small towns and stuff like that. But it's interesting it has made basic infrastructural research easier. It has put a higher premium on those kinds of small libraries collections that have not reached the digital landscape yet and one of the tests. I always try to meet is. Can I bring some evidence to the party? That hasn't been there before to. My favorite historical guys are McCullough of course noise and Carro increasingly. Did you re Titan? You must have. Oh yeah sure sure. Yes Oh the probably. My favorite historical biography ever written my best churn out story. Which isn't really about Ron is. I was interviewing Dan. Rather at a public event in Nashville a couple of years ago and before we went out he said I wanNA talk to you about Hamilton shirt. I'm at Jefferson biographer. But I have thoughts sure and we get out there and we're talking along and about you know eight nine minutes in. He says we'll run. The key point here is and I think You know all right tongue no problem. I did it again. I and then he did it again and I thought Jesus Christ see things wrong turnout and at that point you know. It gets so far past where buses run. You can't fix it. Honored present. Yeah so and port hometown crowd and so enough people kind of got it that we were all basically enabling Dan Shirt the OH. That's that's fantastic. I'm glad that you just went along with it. Because you know wine wine. What are you GonNa do see spinner? He's served his country. It's Ok now I really WanNa read Your Jefferson. Book the art power because I have read so many books where Jefferson is positioned as kind of an ass. Aw particularly right. The John Adams Books I came to dislike Jefferson through those books. Yeah well that you were supposed to be. David did the right thing. I wrote that book actually in part because I mean he been chased by McCulloch for about eight hundred pages in Atoms Ron head twice in Hamilton in Washington. And if you're going to be chased by anybody you don't want to be chased by McCulloch and churn out right right sure so. I thought exactly what you're saying. You know in the son of a bitch may have been a son of a bitch but he wrote the Declaration of Independence for Christ Sake so. Let's give him some credit. My argument about Jefferson is. He's not a hypocrite anymore than the country was hypocritical at the time and he's views. Were not that far out of the mainstream and if you denounce them and send him to the Cross for our sins. It's actually leading the rest of the country and the rest of us off the hook. He was reflecting prevailing opinion. And you can want him to be a saint but John. Adams closed down the press and deported immigrants. Hamilton wanted a British monarchical system. Nobody's perfect in this stuff. And if you look back and you think oh they all have to be these virtuous rush Maureen figures. You're not doing justice to them. And you're not really enabling our our own time to learn from them because you learn more from centers or from saints you know we learn more from centers which is good given the relative proportion of the centers and saints in the population. I think increasingly people want their heroes to be flawless. And it's getting increasingly frustrating from my point of view which is like no. No these people are shitheads. On one day they're geniuses on the next day they are people just like all of us in if your expectations are perfection. Then we're not gonNA have anyone who we study or learn from and you can't learn from them again there. There's a reason there's a category of saints. Those are exemplary stories that are inspiring saints. Themselves by definition are also human. I I came across this or I heard seriously thinking about it. as a result of couple of conversations with Taylor branch wrote the definitive really Martin Luther King biography a trilogy. If you haven't read it it's worth it. It's a parting the waters pillar of fire at Kanaan's edge and he was talking about how in the second volume he had included the information from the FBI. Wiretaps that king had had a very vigorous extracurricular extra marital life orgies and he was under some pressure. He was under some criticism. For why would you reward the FBI's unconstitutional surveillance and sully this man's name and he made an incredibly resonant point with me which is if you treat people as monuments you limit their capacity to teach because who can be that yeah right so in in. Jefferson's gaze as a young unmarried guy. He had a crush on a married friends wife. He had a forty year connection with the woman. He owned I don't say relationship. He wrote the most important sentence ever originally rendered in English that we are all created equal but did almost nothing to bring the specific end of slavery. About but as you say if you want your figures in the past to be perfect. It's a fool's errand and I don't think it's particularly useful. Yeah I'm with you in in fact being sober the the magic of this group. This twelve step group is actually learning from everyone's failures to your point. I'm not learning from people's accomplishments or successes and I always San here like if I interview somebody who's won an academy award. I don't know how that's applicable to my life. I'm not in route to win one. And that's that story over but when I re grant and I go oh my God. This is phenomenal. This guy is a military genius and he's as dumb as it gets when it comes to managing money and get rich quick schemes. He would have been in every multi level marketing available. Yeah that's so refreshing in encouraging and I think it helps people go. I could have an area of my life. I'm genius and I could focus on this thing that I'm great at and can feel you know human about it. Well it goes to my my basic point about the country which sounds very grand. But it's why when people throw up their hands about anything. The incumbent president does as if there were somehow another five minutes before he became president. We were a perfect country Right Ryan. Then all of a sudden we're terrible at our very best. We get things right. Fifty one percent of the time at our very best. Abraham Lincoln was basically segregationist. Go read the first inaugural he reassures people in my native land that we have nothing to fear from him because he's not going to touch slavery where it exists. You know then. Circumstances change largely military necessity is what led to the emancipation proclamation and he becomes Moses but he didn't start out as Moses And I sometimes get dinged for saying. Oh well everything's GonNa be alright because everything has been all right in the past and and I don't mean that but I do think that if you set an unreasonable standard of judgment then you're foreclosing the possibility a of persevering in hope because if you have to get one hundred percent you're always gonNA fall short of that. But did their side of that coin. Is that our best moments. The moments we celebrate the moments we commemorate the moments you want to be associated with stoically are about liberation not captivity. You know it's about Apple Matic's it's about Selma it's about stonewall standing here today if you had been the congress the United States in nineteen sixty four do you want to voted for or against the Civil Rights Act. What do you want in your obituary? I just looked this up the other day at the end of the Millennium. So in ninety nine Gallup did a big survey about what did the public think with the most important moments in the twentieth century. The Civil Rights Act was fourth. It was ahead of the Kennedy assassination. It was ahead of the moon landing. It was ahead of World War. One and one of the things that I try to do when I talked to. People who are in public life is bass this question I sometime. I call it the portrait test. What do you want us to think when we look at your portrait on the wall and it actually has some salience and chance to work because none of them could imagine a world where we're not staring at their portrait? That's a perfectly nat listening. You're asking them a question. They ask themselves hourly exactly what I now. I'm dead curious. What was one two three World War? Two the atomic bomb. And the make rib. I'll think I'll think of three second but it was. It was big right. Yeah so but the Civil Rights Act beat the Depression in terms of people room now. Maybe that's liberal guilt. Maybe that's white guilt but in really matter because insofar as we can use how history going to see you as a casual to make you do the right thing now. Yeah go for it right. That's a great thing. Yeah and and in fact bring up like an you know more recent example of this and I'll say that this is a virtue I most admire. Which is anyone can have an opinion and then double down on a double down. Just refuse to take on new data and to watch President Obama in real time. Be on the wrong side of marriage equality and then in a on the right side of it to me marriage. Equality almost immaterial to the thing that I'm impressed with their which is wow. He could publicly acknowledged. Oil is wrong on that. And I've changed my mind taking on New Info and that's that's the thing that should be modeled if I may. There's even a further level of human complexity on that because he didn't really believe that it was wrong in the first place rice correcting A cynical decision which to some extent is even harder than what you just said. It wasn't new data. It was public opinion data and remember it was Biden who pushed him dry right by. Got Out ahead in fact. Obama said and kind of a condescending way Joe. Got Off a little over his skis there on an issue of human rights. So I mean maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe the Barack Obama. I don't think I am but let's it. Maybe the Barack Obama two thousand and really believed that same sex marriage marriage equality was not right. I don't believe that I think he made a cynical decision for some swing states and then have the guts to undo his. Uh Him as you say kind of in connection to Jefferson. He was just reflecting the popular opinion at the time. It felt like a big swing to be like okay. I'm for this or against this but I guess the thing that we want. I don't think people want perfection. But they want the people who hold a legacy to have taken those risks and been a leader just a reflection to thoughts. Exactly right remember Obama. We kind of forget now. To some extent that a guy named Barack Hussein Obama succeeded a guy named George Walker Bush. Yeah Yeah Yeah I used to think we would never see a sharper contrast in presidential type and temperament than George W to Obama until Obama to trump and now trump has made Obama. George W Clinton everybody look like Cicero right. They all have like Roman senators now in comparison but he was a black guy who needed to normalize himself a little bit in some swing states. And that's what do we really believe. He doesn't believe that. Having a health insurance mandate is the right public policy. I don't but he was against it in the two thousand eight campaign again. Perfection isn't the thing it's go exactly your point. The president's we remember most warmly tend to be the president's who challenged their own basis so Lyndon Johnson from a segregated state on civil rights. What's the one thing remember about Richard Nixon? That's positive he went to China so the Guy. Who Chases Alger Hidden EPA too? Yeah Yeah but if you but most folks would say. But that's fine gap so yeah. The there was a there was a domestic. His healthcare plan by the way was to the left of Obama's to show you how rapidly the country can change Ronald Reagan and the Cold War George H W Bush and taxes. You know he had given his base what they wanted and then said you know know what I'm wrong. We gotta do this. And he's been rewarded for that in history. So it's the here's a category with no end. What the President doesn't understand. Which is you know how much time you got. But one of one of the fundamental things is he doesn't see you have to spend some political capital to benefit historically initially putting it in vanity terms for forget that it's the right thing to do and and your to your point it's a leader but people do reward those who challenge their basic assumptions. WanNa walk through your life a little bit because that's what we do here. I'm sure you listen to all the episodes religiously I of course you're from Chattanooga I am and dad was in Vietnam War we was in the Vietnam. I like that phrase Mom and dad got divorced. They did. And then you went live with grandma. And GRANDPA GRANDPA. Yeah and then he your grandfather or granddaddy he. He had daily chats about local politics with all of his pals. And you just kind of hung around. And we're absorbing all that right and you wrote a letter to Ronald Reagan when you were eleven and got invited to his inauguration. Okay so I just WANNA say I. What are you in a handful of seven? It's hard to do. Something on a planet was seven billion people that puts you in a group of five and I got imagine I just WanNa five eleven year olds. Who wrote a letter to Ronald Reagan? Yeah I well I appreciate that. The latter part is a bit of urban legend. That's par but so the truth is even worse So the truth is that yet. My grandfather was a judge in Chattanooga probably when I was six he started taking me to court with him and I was excited because they had a machine downstairs. One of the old Pull the lever vending machines. Osher and you could get peanuts and so you could pull the thing occur and you get the peanuts and get a coke during the recesses so I felt the recesses of great and I still don't quite understand how they did this in terms of a workday but it is absolutely true that the district attorney sometimes the mayor a couple of judges there was a state Supreme Court justice who was around. The sheriff was around a little bit. They would at ten o'clock in the morning so why they weren't working earned their salary which we were paying them they would go to. We had this old downtown hotel. It's still there called the house and they would sit around and have a cup of coffee and tell lies basically. They sometimes mendacity club and so to me politics to me. They were people and I'm convinced there's a line between what I do now and and that experience the Reagan thing was. I've never looked up the date of it but sometime in the fall of seventy-nine Reagan gave a sixty minutes interview and I bet it was with Mike Wallace. Mike Wallace was an old pal of Nancy's family in Chicago. One of the many weirdnesses about Nancy Reagan issue used to talk about how her father was a doctor and she had doctors hands but he was her stepfather. Okay Joe Orlando p section of the genetic. Ingo just fascinated by it. I can't imagine it was the substance. I don't think I had a lot to say about the grain embargo of of that year. But Reagan Kiki communicated this kind of Mystique of power and politics and I was sort of hooked. You know he had he had studied. Fdr devoted form four times. There's a great scene in September nineteen thirty six. Fdr comes to the Iowa State Fair which was late in the summer and Reagan is working for who he's doing. The cubs games is the year before he went to Hollywood and got his contract and he actually runs across the studio offices to catch a glimpse of FDR as he goes by in in in the motorcade and he learned from Roosevelt. How a president should act litter in every sense of that term so he had a way of communicating that he he embodied the state somehow and so that was appealing to me and so I volunteered. I was in the sixth grade. I volunteered at the Hamilton County. Republican headquarters uh-huh which was next to a dive bar called. Leonard's De of the Leonard served a hamburger. That was basically onions with some meat. I remember that detail very clearly anyway so I was just around the local politics for about a year or so and he wins of course and I got an invitation to the inauguration and I talked my grandmother in detecting me up there so I was on the lawn of the Capitol on the West Front Tuesday January twentieth. Nineteen eighty one when Really in many ways modern politics began while and when you were there. Did you have fantasies of being a politician? Go Yeah you did. You thought you might be a politician. Oh yeah look if you were a white southern Piscopo in child you thought you go to law school then you get out you run for office. Yeah now the drama of my early twenties was to do everything I could to avoid going to law school so I did like Saint Paul. I did put away childish things of eventually but when I look back on it. I'm pretty convinced that the tributaries that lead me into doing what I'm doing would be going to court with my grandfather being around those local politicians. Then it got nationalized and even internationalized by both the Reagan experience and then I read Churchill's war memoirs but a weird age. I was a really exciting kid as you can tell Mccullough's early stuff and all that boy. Manchester American Caesar and the last lion. Those books were hugely important to me. You're clearly a unique boy. Right you're are you are you and I say that with admiration. You're are you also at the High School Prom? Are you just completely on your own path? No I was a friend in college. He wants had a great line he. He's captured me as well as I think anybody ever did. Which was that? I was like frazier crane in cheers. I would be dismissive and critical of the madness and then go along and do it anyway. Sure that was a really astute in insight so no. I was not a big athlete. Obviously I wasn't quite as weird. I'm making myself sound. You could make a good case that I was like the boy in the bubble meet C. Span. But it's a it's a little more complicated because you're roughly the same age as my brother and I'm wondering my grew up in a room with kiss murals on the wall. My mother painted for him like his legs kiss. Where where were they at on your radar? They were not. They were not high on the list. Goes as freely on Halloween? The poster on my wall was I have it right over. Here was of George Herbert Walker Bush and Ronald Reagan at the one thousand nine hundred eighty Detroit convention with the line. The time is now okay all right well that so. That's really specific. Now really really tells a lot so when I was a freshman at school called Salani which I loved. I got an internship to work covering a congressional race partly because I knew the people who are running back home in Chattanooga and the way I think of it now is I walked into that newsroom. And that was it. It had everything right. You could write. Which gave you some measure of control. You had a ticket to anything. It was all about all the things I thought about and read about since those days when I was playing with the peanuts. Yeah you end up working at the Chattanooga Times I love how you say Chattanooga by the way. I'm going to practice in for Monica all the time. Yeah because you go you go Should new no Chatanooga Chattanooga my twelve year old makes fun of me for this too so you have that in common. You're right the parallels will not stop there by twelve year old. Okay so you end up working. We're GONNA fast forward now you end up working at Newsweek in DC and you become the executive editor in the executive vice president ultimately at Random House. And I'm wondering throughout this time. Do you know you're bound to write historical novels or are you? What's your game plan at? That point didn't really have one. I'm case of sort of a rat boarding a lot of sinking ships so daily Journalism Weekly Journalism Hardback books. I have a real eye for the future. Advocates is door-to-door Furman. Yeah so pretty soon. I'm GonNa Launch This thing called Gutenberg. It's going to be but. I was lucky in that everything. Sort of into telling these stories about the foibles of the powerful both journalism and just the basic reading getting to know a lot of these people that I just you know known from afar President Bush being the best example. I guess I guess the other sort of Rosebud moment was in the summer of eighty. Six think kiss was on tour. Probably Shar Shar. But I I've been to so many shows at that point that kind of new the new the drill so I took some time off from from that and read two books one was Robert Penn. Warren's all the king's men and the other was written by Evan Thomas Walter Isaacson called the wise men and it's about Dean Aitchison several Haramain Robert Love about these six friends who were part the foreign policy establishment under Truman and Eisenhower and Kennedy and I loved both those book so much that I finished them and then I started reading them again so I read each twice that summer so of I read these things I loved them so much. I always had this kind of voice in the back of my head. Could I possibly play in that stadium right and as you start writing these books? You write several before you right Andrew Jackson American Lion. Which one you the Pulitzer do you see? That book is markedly better than the others are. I'm curious what you think you did right in that book. That's a very good question. I have no idea. I'm a terrible judge of my own work and it's not false. Modesty is just sometimes. I think I'll do something and I'll think man this is going to make them. Said you know the mailman won't even notice and then. I'll do something without thinking about it and I'll get forty letters so I I just I'm just not and the thinking journalistically there. You sway between semi to outcomes are. I'm the greatest gift to comedy to ever live. And I'm the worst piece of Shit how they let me on a show. There's no middle ground for me. I'm either God or the devil in my assessment. You Know I. I don't want to in any way. Harm your sense of self but I don't think that's a unique view. That's what I'm hoping. Yeah Yeah I do I do veer and but I you found this. You forty five okay. Have you found that you are easier on yourself to some extent today than you were say ten years ago? Yeah thousand percent as I've gotten a handle on my ego and I realized that the things that create sustainable kind of self esteem aren't really related to the results. And I've definitely the thing. I now mind for self. Esteem and pride is is just diligence and hard work. So I say I'm in the shop and work business not the results business in Egos just results business right. Two quick things come to mind that I have found. I am radically different than I was ten years ago in terms of the emotional swings and. I don't just think it's the medication this game. Stay tuned for more arms. If you dare. We are supported by square. 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Dot Com Promo Code Armchair Linen everything. You need to live your most comfortable life are you. Fifty one is an old. You're fifty one next week and I really do think it's just a function of age to some extent. I am far more capable of doing something and saying you know what this is what I set out to do a great example right now so. I'm writing this book about John. Lewis hero of Selma of Nashville arrested forty five times fractured skull. Jesus close to an American saint as anyone I've ever met in the classical sense of that and the way that the early church defined it which was not necessarily your character but your willingness to shed blood and suffer for the faith itself. I met him thirty years ago whenever I'm around him. I just think this is the most incredible person who's walking the planet right now and always thought you know what I should write this and so I was with him to family down. We were in Selma Montgomery and Birmingham right before. Kovic truck the anniversary of bloody Sunday. He does an annual trip down. There you walk across the Pettus Bridge with John Lewis. No it's like walking at Normandy with Eisenhower share literally. Yeah right because that is a domestic war story the civil rights movement. And what happened at Selma? What happened at Montgomery would happen to Birmingham? What happened in Jackson? Mississippi is as important to the American character and fate as what happened at Normandy or Bunker Hill poor apple maddix so I decided no what I'm going to write. This book was going to do it. John Specific he's got cancer is fighting it. He's eighty years old. And this may not be a radical reinterpretation of John. Lewis this if you know a lot about him. You may not come away dazzled by new information but I haven't argument I WANNA make about this man and I'm lucky enough that I have world enough in time to do it so I'm going to write this book and if you like it that's great and if you don't well you know what we'll move on. Yeah Yeah I could. No more have said those sentences in that order ten years ago then I have flown and I love to say that's maturity. I think it's just age. Well I I don't know about for you but for me. A huge help in that has been to children as I had nothing to focus on but myself and occasionally I'd I'd give my wife some of my thoughts. I was all important and I was the only measure of how this experience was going but then once to other humans entered the picture I had to break out of my own narcissism and everything about me got a little less important in the most healthy way imaginable. Yup no I totally get I. I wish I could give credit to them but but I was. I was the the old way for a long time while they were the eighteen year. Old Fifteen year old and a twelve year old but absolutely bill. Buckley want said every man should write a book plant a tree and have a son. So I'm done sure well half your credit my friend. So how do you pick? And we're going to get to your new book. How do you pay so in Jackson? Here's what I know about Andrew Jackson in a lot of it's probably Ally well. He was in a dual right. He's one of our only presidents that actually was in a dual entity have a humongous wheel of cheese. He put in the White House. You want people to be able to grab a piece of cheese when they visited well. Somebody's actually getting meacham from Vermont. I think sense it down there and so what are you GONNA do You get it's it's like a it's like a re gifting. Okay okay okay. So it was like the liberty just arrived. Yeah just all right fine put it out there and maybe maybe they'll all eat it but what was it about him. That made you on fire to because I have to imagine you're spending. I don't know how long it takes you to write these books clearly over a year right. Maybe a couple of years Jackson took five. Bush took seventeen. So that's a different story. This is longer than many many relationships people have in so I got imagine you might get on fire for them for a minute but you have to really be able to suss out. Is this a sustainable interest? It's GONNA be years. That's exactly the way to put it is. It cannot be a single date. 'cause you do live with them through thick and thin they also. I have found that with. Answer your question directly. Though the reason I did Jackson when I did it was we were coming. Out of founders. Cheikh McCullough had done John Adams Joe Ellis had done several really good books. Walter is extended had done Benjamin Franklin. Everybody was walking around in frock coats with with powdered wigs and then in sort of the march of time popular mind. Would you really go from the founding era to Lincoln right? Yeah Yeah and then it's and then it's d day and then we're done so I thought you know who's the most important American between the founding and Lincoln as Jackson? He's a fantastic character. I sometimes think I should've saved Jackson for my retirement because he was again. I mean the incumbent president makes him look like you know Seneca but he was temperamental. He was self made. He came from the lowest rung of White. Society never knew his father Z. The only red-headed President we've had Jefferson was Kinda red headed the Jackson. He had a good head of hair. Actually John Kerry Kinda Hair Oscar. You collect locks of presidential hair. We had someone on here. Who did that? I don't I don't we'll have anything to add my simple denial. It's okay I have a lot of weird stuff bob. Dole wants gave me one of his button. Hooks one of the things because of his arm his injury. So so that's that's about as weird as it gets Bob Dole's a great American and still going. We ran into him My son was with me and Dole called up couple of days later. Say Thank you for something that Bob. Dole here says senator. We'd love to come see. You sometimes is not hard to get on the calendar when you're nine. Hor that's my Bob Dole impression. You're pleased is there ever been someone who referred to themselves in the third person as much as Bob Dole? I really don't think so. I love it. He made it so charming a so great because I was a big Leftie I was young and a big lefty and even I was like I like the sky lot I live. You know why you liked him. If I may in a different life in an alternative universe. He could've been letterman totally great. He's ironic and it was all. It was all shield and sword right because he needed to distract from the arm. So I don't know I don't know if he was quiet as ironic as a kid but when he came back. The sense of humor was about. If you're laughing you're not staring interesting. comedians light of me. Yeah it's interesting. So Jackson was immensely important native Americans. He defended African American slavery. He was an architect of the perpetuation of the two original American sends but I circle back to what we were talking about. He was never outside the mainstream. And so would I dislike about the Not The revisionism that's great. Let's outlets debated all you want but you try to exile him to a corner somewhere and I don't care who is on the twenty dollar bill by the way that talk about a pyrrhic fight but if you think that you can put him in a historical time out and that somehow absolves the nation of its enduring tradition of injustice. Then you're kidding yourself and I think there's a lot of elective self righteousness when it comes to Jackson and the founders my theory which no one pays any attention to but I'll will launch it here again. People ask me a lot about confederate monuments and stuff. Yeah Yeah my view is if you were devoted to the American experiment of journey toward a more perfect union however imperfect you may have been then you should be commemorated if you decide on the merits in public places but if you were taking up arms against the order that actually produced the thirteenth fourteenth and amendments that produced the Civil Rights Act produced the country that we still for all of our happiness. We want to defend. Then you shouldn't. So if properly had had his way there would not have been a thirteenth fourteenth or Fifteenth Amendment And so you want to put him on a courthouse lawn. I don't quite see that. There was a fairly reasonable constitution in Alabama from eighteen sixty six to nineteen one thousand nine hundred one. They got back together they re legislated white supremacy and really nine thousand nine hundred to about nineteen twenty nine. I think is the period that's most like ours in that sense lot of immigration a lot of reaction to immigration the refounding of the clan the founding of the N. double. Acp TO TRY TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST JIM. Crow The narrow victory for suffrage in one thousand nine Hundred Ninety Wilson outlawing civil dissent during the first World War There's a lot in that period that I think is unfolding and echoing even now Now your fascination with George Herbert Walker Bush it makes sense because now I know you had a poster of him at a young age so I'll tell you one thing here Ellen poses a pitcher with George W Bush and people go crazy in. They're saying he's guilty of war crimes and everything. Here's my limited experience. I went to a resort in Africa. We went during the rainy season. It was completely closed down this wonderful place Sangita and I and we got to hang with all the people that work there because there was no other people and they were telling us about all these amazing people that had come through like Bill Gates had been there a couple of months before up the whole place. They're just going through this after. Listen these guys independently six or seven guys told me they said you know the coolest guests we ever had was was George Bush. He sat with us every night and chatted too late at night. He was just the most friendly likeable. Guess we've ever had. And of course I was politically opposed to him because this the father of the sun the sun the sun and I just thought. Oh yeah you know what the guys are Nice Guy you know? Someone really is talk to the staff at a hotel. If you're their favorite person that's ever come through. That says something about you absolutely right now. I'm the senior President Bush in ninety eight so I was in college through most senior President Bush's term. And like you. I think my roommate was a guy from Lynchburg. Tennessee named Jack Daniels. I was a little fuzzy on the Gulf War. I had this very nineteen ninety vision of Bush as Dana Carvey. Yeah and Attitide. I'd been around him for about twenty minutes when I thought. Oh this is why he became president because in a tumultuous turbulent and fall in world he communicated this kind of ineffable sense that you know. What if there are tough decisions to be made but war and peace? I'm a pretty good bet that he communicated that sense now. This is the father and one of these fascinated. Me was how a popular government in a media saturated age. There could be such a gulf between the way he was in the way. Even someone like me who spends a lot of time thinking in reading about this stuff could have a different view so one of the reasons I wanted to do. The book was to try to explain that George W Bush I met him. Who's running for president but got to know really at the end right when he left office and I was in the home stretch of the book about his dad and he was very generous. He was he was skeptical. I'd been at the magazine. That called his father a wimp famously. In one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. They saw me as this left. Lefty media figure but he he answered every question. What you saw was what you got and maybe you wanted to see something else and maybe you wanted to get something else. But he has this capacity better than almost anyone. I've ever known real people to ask the hard question to address the elephant in the room. Well he's got a charm about him right that was kind of made 'em teflon in that way. Yeah it's tricky to say it's teflon though because he left with a twenty one percent approval rating life so seventy nine percent of the country because now everyone looks back at him and his like oh he was great but ever no one. Oh no he. He gave rise to the first black president. He was a university. Yeah were disappointed. But this is why. There's a difference between journalism and history because I published the book about his father twenty years after he became president. Because that's about the earliest that you can make a considered judgment. So here's a great example ripped from the headlines of this. If you're writing a book about George W Bush and let's say you had published it in the fall of twenty nineteen. I bet you a box of cigars that the word pandemic would not have been in the index Today he looks far seeing. He pulled together a response manual. We didn't pay attention to it. But what makes what I do to me? Fascinating is things that you might not have even taken. No dove in one moment loom incredibly large. The next it's one sign of how complicated the presidency is arguably the most important thing Bush forty one did domestically was something that passed by with very little debate. Which was the American Disabilities Act? Almost every building in America has George Herbert Walker Bush's thumbprint on it Because a Republican president in our lifetimes signed a big government bill that ordered every building in America to be different and be assigned in the fall of nineteen ninety which right after Saddam invaded Kuwait. Nobody paid much attention to it in his. It was about fair. Play and part of what the presidency does is it touches on all these aspects of life and in some ages you notice in some ages. You don't and the point of this debates is to go to your point I mean w looks very very good right now Harry Truman. Same thing happened to Truman. They want what happened to Truman to happen to them. Truman left Washington in January of Nineteen fifty-three with about a twenty five percent approval rating. Though because of some scandals nobody even. I CAN'T REMEMBER. Even the door can't remember but as the decades went by a couple of things happened it turned out that containment worked. Nato was important The Marshall Plan paid off and through Vietnam and into Watergate. It turned out we kind of liked presidents who were really blunt. Okay I want to talk about your new book the hope of Glory Reflections on the last words of Jesus from the Cross now before we even launch into that what. I'm trying to as I try to do. Which is a bad habit But I do it. I'm trying to draw a conclusion. It seems to me that you straddle a little bit of left and right and I don't think it's an accident. You live in Nashville which I always get a good vibe down there. I also do an Austin. I always say about Austin. That's my city it's a liberal hillbillies so it's like you're still on a truck but you know you want gay folks to get married. That's that's basically me in a nutshell and I get that. Buy in Tennessee a bit. There's like a nice contingent of some straddle. You Wear Tattoos to the gay wedding. I got him right right. Right right so are you a straddle at all. Did you find that. You're not fitting neatly into a boxer. You one or the other I I don't I don't know I voted for president so both parties I plan to continue to. Maybe because of the way I spend my days. I just don't believe anyone or any side has a monopoly on insight. The I agree. And that's not to say that somehow or another because I'm not a partisan I the either for no more than part is I don't I don't mean that the system doesn't work if you don't have these forces and counter forces pulling on each other. I'm very much in the reinhold. Niebuhr HISTORY IS TRAGIC. Best we can do is fifty one percent. Theodore Parker Gooch's line that king used and Alabama use the arc of a moral universe is long but it bends toward justice. If you don't have people who are insisting that history swerve we're not gonNA make it bend at all right so if you don't have Bernie Sanders and John Lewis en- dare I say it the folks on the right as well then. The dialectic doesn't work my own view. Is I try to be data driven. I think that there's a totally understandable but a largely irresponsible short hand. That people fall into that you know one party's virtuous parties. Not and I just don't i. Don't think the facts support that. Yeah well I gotTA say like You. Watch the McCain documentary on. Yeah but but I was like my God. Here's the guy who I didn't agree with on a single thing and I can see and feel viscerally the integrity and I admire it in the Times where he stood up against his own group. You know you can't deny that JE senator McCain is a great example of this I think President Bush Senior President Bush's you know. He gave up his presidency because of an economic decision he may in the fall nineteen ninety when he decided to break the no new taxes. Pledge he told his desiring he said I'm going to be dead meat but it's the right thing to do and he had gingrich all these people pounding on him but he really believed if he did the right thing. People like us in the fullness of time would come to appreciate it and I'm delighted. You know he's sort of lived to see that. Yeah Yeah Okay. So I bring up the straddling point because there is a stereotype of you've written a book about Jesus And you're you're living in Tennessee. I'm thinking one thing but then I know how interested you are in the civil rights movement and then I go okay. That's interesting so what what drew you to the hope of glory. Well I'M A. I was educated entirely in religious schools so I went to an Episcopal Montessori which is kind of redundant. I guess when you think about a nominally Protestant secondary school and Episcopal College. I think that and this is speaking both from faith in a historical perspective. I think if you're making a list to go back to our list mode of the most important things that have happened in recorded history. What happened in Jerusalem around the year? Thirty three is as important if not more so than almost anything else including Gutenberg including the enlightenment including World War Two including the splitting of the atom the weaponising of of science it determines how we tell time and you can believe what you WanNa believe. But we're we know more about Jesus historically than we know about socrates to the Gospels not biographies. It's not like McCullough was got the interview they were written for evangelistic purposes. But that doesn't mean they're not useful historically and I the very practical reason I did. It is years ago seven eight years ago when we lived in New York went to a wonderful parish. Saint Thomas Fifth Avenue and we were regulars and the director asked me to do. It's a three hour service on Good Friday. Where you you give seven sermons ones thank like Quintana Mo for believers? Yeah pound them over the head. I was going to compare it to Maybe seal week. Yeah exactly Paris island. So I deliver them and it's funny talk about a straddle so my view the in this very much goes where we were talking about about. If I produce something that I think has integrity. You take it or you leave it. This is fully within that zone. I believe that the Christian story continues to shape US fundamental ways. It has a greater capacity to do good than evil if we do it right. And if you concede the story if you see the story to what we think of broadly as the religious right in this country then you're unilaterally disarming and handing this great tradition over to people who actually are not about the sermon on the mount but are really just about the Supreme Court and so as someone who call myself basically a kind of progressive believer. I declined to hand Jesus over to Franklin Graham and the rest of them. You know. It's funny as were very critical myself included on these quote moderate Muslims. We want them to be very vocal against the extremists. Were expecting them to stand up and say no no no no no. They do not represent us yet. It doesn't seem to be a ton of responsibility laid on Christian sustained up in a not a but I am aware of the messaging doesn't seem to sync up neatly with any of the messaging that I feel like is what made the book sustainable for two thousand years to begin with a man brother of A. Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. There's a fourth century. Roman writer noted Christians who are just come to power when Constantine converted and the writer said but surely there's not simply one path to so greater truth and I totally believe that Marissa's my path yeah itself evidently is politically historically culturally important to our allocation of resources and our dispositions of heart and mind in this country And so the reason I did this was to say I think you can accept the truth of this story without joining blindly one temporal political faction or another all the mysticism and supernatural elements aside. I'll go okay after acknowledge there was this guy. Jesus Christ or Jesus Christos or whatever. He was killed punch pilot. Did order that God. This guy's famous. I mean for two thousand years if I just look at the fact like could there ever be a figure like that? I think for any number of reasons there couldn't be ever again it is astounding that one human being regardless is being talked about today on a computer. What do you think it is about the timing of it? The context that created this kind of indelible story. This will be a counter cultural answer. Okay good the reason we are talking about him is because that handful of believers were willing to die because they actually believed he got back up if he had simply been another rabbi or offit who had been martyred and left in a tomb both literally and figuratively. We wouldn't be having this conversation. The radical nature of the resurrection story which was so real to them that they were willing to be persecuted chased out of Jerusalem. Stoned change the trajectory of that religious narrative and made it both a cultural and historical one. The reason I think it's better than even that it really happened is because why on God's earth so to speak would you makeup something so stupid. Well well no no no no first of all they tell the story in the Weakest Possible Way. The women come and tell them. Women couldn't testify. The last person is mouth. You would put testimony in that you wanted to be accepted to the broader world. When be a woman in the Middle East of the first century? They dismissed it as an idle tale. And I just think why on earth would you as a believer. Would you tell the story in a way that so openly undermine Jareth thority if there weren't some historical basis because that's the way it really happened? Well I can easily come up with a motive. So I've got this group of people. They followed this man. The man said he was God if God is just ordered to be killed by punches pilot and he just sits there and he's dead. I didn't prove to be a God. So it's very simple conspiracy for me to launch to go like. Hey We know he was God now. It didn't shake out. He doesn't seem very godlike. You just killed by men now. If he had risen that would confirm. I mean you can see the motive for constructing that he did something that only God do. I see what you're saying but if you there's some terrific scholarship on this in my mind is not terrific scholarship on it. But I've read the terrific. Scholarship is like watching an exercise video but not exercising it. Just nobody was looking for. A human atoning resurrected sacrifice. So they weren't speaking in any vernacular that would have been plausible share. It was a one off a total one off. Stay tuned for more armchair if you dare. We are supported by liquid. Iv. I love liquid. I've I've been using it more. Never because as you know I've been jogging. I'm trying today five miles. I have the goal of a ten K. I Know I love that. Six point two miles and you really stand up your hydration when you're running like that get nervous about you. Yes so I've been doing what viant really helps with my job. Leave it or not. 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At target whole foods and KOSCO. We are supported by legalzoom. Health and safety is on the top of. Everyone's mind right now. No matter what happens you WanNa make sure your loved. Ones are protected. That's why legalzoom continues to provide a reliable way for everyone to set up the right estate plan without leaving home as you know. I've told you I didn't estate plan years ago legal. I actually used this product. And it's so simple and it. By God it stands up under the scrutiny of law. I need to do it. You GotTa do. It starts with finding the answers to your questions. Do you need a last will and testament trust? What about an advanced healthcare directive and what's power of attorney? You don't even know that but you could find out if you go to legalzoom thankfully you don't have to figure everything out on your own legalzoom's online resources make it easy to get started and if you need to speak to an attorney. 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So he goes he goes deep for In Biblical terms six thousand years and now he's been deep again for two thousand Maha. So will you know what is it the polls him up? Yeah was like you know. It's Jesus is big foot in. Oh yeah now. Here's my issue with it. It's like the messaging is so profound. I do think what he was saying. Love your enemy turn the other cheek. These are incredibly beautiful profound sentiments. That he should be celebrated for. Do we even need the mystical aspect of it for him to just be an incredible philosopher that once live like Socrates Plato. I mean could his messages be that profound that that was worthy of being passed along generation to generation. Yes intellectually clinically. What you just said of course but the reason we're talking about his articulation of what is not particularly original message is because because of the extraordinary story right and so. Your book is really. It's about the last thing he sat. It's a it's a spiritual exercise. There are seven started the Middle Ages there seven sentences that the church believes the D. spoke from the cross. If you WANNA be absolutely historically rigorous very hard to talk when you're being crucified imagination yeah particularly in good King James English you know. I don't know how you say. Oh Shit how can this be over in tones? But Yeah it's father. Forgive them for they know what they do so I immediately. That's the first one I immediately take issue with it because that doesn't make any sense because they know they did right. They know what they did. And if it's part of a salvation history that this has to happen. Everybody should be or what they're doing all right. So the first chapter of this book is we're starting with a problem Everything I've said the last seven minutes that the gospels are problematic. This story is problematic. This is not a Jesus loves me? Yes I know for the Bible tells me so but it is at the heart of Western history. It is the story that has affected shaped change. More lives than any other I think and so my message in this is a lot of people are going to gather at the foot of the cross no matter what so. Let's take advantage of that. Yeah try to understand what happened why we think what happened. May or may not have happened and apply those lessons as well as we can by the secular tendency to try to move. Religion out of the Public Square is again a kind of fool's errand at the same time. I think the Fox News thing about Christianity is under assault is genuinely insane right. No denying the impact of this faith on Western civilization and then Collaterally my argument is. Let's understand it. Yes or Santa. Now here's a question and this is where we go all the way back to you. Have a twelve year old daughter so I was in a meeting recent. I just became aware out of nowhere because I don't spend a Lotta time in churches. How LITTLE ROLE? There is for women in the religion and I would see that as a real hurdle going forward where you know. God's a man in God created a son he didn't send daughter back and then all the apostles are male. I mean you really have his mom and then you have the Hooker Mary Magdalene. How does a young girl but she fucked everything up? She ruined she. She was born from his rib and then tempted him. You know I'm curious. How how Christianity incorporates women? Do you see that as an issue like if I was a young girl and I'm sitting there being explained this whole religion. I'm kind of like well. What what the Hell did we do in? What's my role in this? And why? Why would they join something that seems to have ignored my existence? Right one fact check just for Mary. Magdalene actually was not the prostitute. The woman at the well was a prostitute. Mary Magdalene was basically bankrolling. Jesus Oh okay okay. I'm sorry I'm here I'm here. I'm here to defend the very few women there. Are I come from a part of the forest? That actually is the antidote to. What very reasonable question. You raise the Episcopal Church now. I don't know what percentage it is but a huge percentage of the clergy is female We were earliest Sean. That in terms of from the seventies forward I don't think my daughter's feel gender alienated but as probably because of our particular tradition. Well I can. I own my own side so I I work in Hollywood if you look at all of our movies all of our movies up. Until twenty years ago are written by man and Lo and behold males are the leads. And even if you look at like the days of wine and roses extensively about a woman dealing with alcoholism but no. It's really about Jack. Lemmon having to deal with his wife with alcoholism and so it. Just it illustrates the nature of people. Right what they know. And if the only people riding are men these are the stories. You get Yup Yup. I think that's the energy behind. Your question is widely shared. I think it's you know I go back to the political realm on this. My girls go to girl and I was the Post Election Day speaker in two thousand sixteen. So you can imagine. Jeeze draft draft had to be redone on minute. I would imagine so I was. I was going to show up in declare. I was going to wear a white suit. It was the year Land and of course and the iconography of power is where I land on this. We do not know even now thirteen years in the significance of Barack Obama and the White House for the iconography of power as soon as we can get a woman there. Yeah and otherwise say this. I almost don't care who. It is a caveat. Caveat sign large not the Gal from Alaska but exactly John McCain only thing. I've often thought that by late October. He wished he'd been back in Hanoi Nicer to him. So yeah you're right requires a deeply cautious the so my my son is says a lot of the same interests I do. And he's the oldest and I have to watch you know when we're at dinner that he and I just you know run off talking about you know the future of NATO a because no one cares but as but you know that you that you don't somehow or another threat word gender rise conversation topics and thus power. Yeah and so. It's it's a matter of it's just vigilance. Yeah yeah I agree out of curiosity and Having to see oneself in a story I think of it not even like I'm judging everyone in the past I have no more like an a very selfishly motivated. Incentivize y you know how. How do you incorporate gaels into something that is so historic is what it is? Well I'm dealing with this right now in early American history because I am writing half a biography about dolley Madison who was the highest ranking woman in American public life for sixteen years really nothing about dolley Madison. I will take care of that. I may not be interested will be available like CAL exam bridge. A The literature early feminists thought you can master it right huge. It's the vindication of the rights of women. It's a woman named Judah Sergeant who was an American journalist so I the the issues you're raising very much on my mind because I'm trying to without making her into Betty Free Dan in a hoop skirt. I am trying to try to understand if you were an educated woman in elite circles at the beginning of this continental national experience. What would you see as your role? And what would you have seen as the possibilities? Transcending it and I know the question. I don't have the answer yet. Let's talk in six months. I Love I love it. Well listen we enjoy you so much on Bill Maher. I can't wait for you to talk about that Book With Bill O. Know He loves he really approved the nicest thing passive aggressive way anyone's ever said to me was I think it was on. I can remember is on the air or not. He was e bates. Some offhand comment about how idiotic religious people were so you know I'm religious. He said yes. I can't figure out because otherwise you seem fine. You know where that show is shot. Don't you end prices right? Studio is it. It's got that big wheel and all that is all crammed up against the wall. Oh the goal. It's really hard to spend Eric holder and I tried to spin. It might have been locked there. Maybe that was it so I hope the game show called Spin. The wheel in the wheel is five stories and it weighs forty tons so obviously no one can actually spin it. Which became this thing. Once we started filming. There's nothing rewarding about just touching than it takes off so they have to Kinda act like they're moving it with no human could and then when it spans it's directly behind me a five story. It's like the fucking Chicago world's fair and I'm waiting for killing fall on me and I'm like will it be Buster Keaton and I'll look like a comedic genius. Wildland perfectly between US spoke or will it be. I will just disappear under it yet. I think it's probably the latter. Yeah Yeah Yeah. I've done the math on the wheel. There's more surface area than Syria. John Yes John. What a pleasure talking to you and please keep going on a Bill Maher and keep writing and keeps arriving on their Nashville. Next time you hear let me know all right great talking to John Youtube and now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my Soul Mate Monica Pad man. We were just again going over. The whole phenomena with the period can just rehashing standing one in my car that had flam in it a sip of it and I started renaming. I thought there must be boozing here. That's why she screamed so I don't get it in my mouth. What's really funny. Is All those thoughts that we've now talked about for hours. They all happen in two seconds. 'cause it was straightened out so really quickly true. But in that micro-second I had like a whole world. Fantasy about your life. Is someone who drinks in the morning and hides it area and then of course like how do I feel about that was evaluated all in like a nanosecond crazy? Do you think nanosecond evaluation is accurate? Tie You really feel real feelings? Take some time to process will certainly and they can evolve. You've never liked my feelings on it. Which is so interesting. Because it's basically the feelings I would desire for you to have for me. Yeah now opposite days. You said you wouldn't care. I said I thought well. That's what she's been doing. And she's completely normal and seems to have no wreckage or on manageability. So who am I to say? What is the right amount alcohol when you drink it now if you had like wreckage in problems and that's a different conversation entirely? Yeah but I know you in. You don't have problems and wreckage on manageability so I was just like. Oh my goodness she drinks in the morning and none of that stuff but obviously. I have on manageability if I'm drinking in the morning. Like maybe you aren't seeing it but that means there's something going I mean you say. Addiction is just regulating your emotions. Yeah so obviously. I'm doing that if I'm drinking in the morning. Yeah out of a Perry but I gotta be honest. I don't know that I am unilaterally against addiction. I think I'm unilaterally against people. Being unhappy being miserable and demoralized in shame ridden. I'm against those things. But if you're some anomaly that I guess Frank Sinatra just woke up and he drank and he was drunk all the time and he loved it and he didn't care and it didn't seem to bother anyone. I wasn't married to mind you. Yeah I'm sure it bothered people. I'm sure I'm sure he was not happy. I have no clue I I would guess. Yeah Frank Sinatra was. Happy seem very happy. He's good at pretending he was happy. 'cause people and Republicans are gonNA pretending know what's interesting about. That group is like Dean Martin. You could see was an alcoholic. He had wreckage. He was sloppy. It really was affecting him and he looked demoralized in chamber. It looks like it was hurting his life. But I'm not ready to give that evaluation to Sinatra's life I'm Mike Open to those anomalies type wagging my finger like oh you drink x amount. It's this you don't have to wear. I mean you don't know them so who cares but I think you should care. I mean this is my whole point. That someone in your life who love. I should care about their wellbeing. That's a big red flagged their wellbeing. It definitely deserves some follow up questions. But I was open to the notion that it's impacting you negatively in any way. And what a weird anomaly owes witnessing because I've not met anyone who drinks in the morning out of a period can who's happy and not adult with shame there is shame if you're drinking out of the period can well you would just be drinking of good point. You're clearly high but are you like hiding going. Oh these people are squares. They don't understand a drink in the morning and it's fine or you know it's like what version of it so just I again. I was driving children around you have. That's a big deal breaker. Yeah someone someone. Be Drunk while driving my children. That's I don't really care. If he of shame or demoralized during that just that's a no go for me. Luckily it was just flam good old-fashioned on add one more late to what's funny is because this scenario is so extreme right. I've discovered alcohol. In your perrier nine in the morning. Yeah I think part of you then fills out all this other stuff because that's so crazy but in my world everything's the same. I know you. I know all about you and your routine and your general well-being in your mental health. I'm aware of all that. Yeah I think when you do the fantasy with that was alcohol. There's a whole different Monica will. There is but that's my point is I was living real time. There wasn't another Monica with her. So if the places were switched And I found some thing odd that you were hiding uh-huh and you're still you right. I don't think like oh he just has this extra thing. I'm like Oh there's this whole area of his life that he's keeping secret that's a problem. People don't keep secrets about things are fine about well. I'd say yes and no people have secrets about how much money make they're aware of what it does to other people. That's just keeping something like is someone asked. How much money do you have? You'd probably ans- like I don't do this but if I was someone who took like. I read Michael Pollen's book and I loved it and I didn't care dose of mushrooms once a week. I might be clever enough not to share that Info with people that would scare but that doesn't mean that I feel shame about it. The people that it would scare the people that care about you the most so the idea that you're keeping that from them so that you can do this thing private by yourself or have this thing is is not good secrets. Thank you shame as not good. I think we can agree on that part. We could build from seems obvious but I think there's secrets that don't give you shame. There's just it's public knowledge. That doesn't give you shame. Nothing I agree really also. I'm surprised that you feel that. 'cause you wear honesty is like such a cloak but I guess I'm giving you an example and you don't agree with that example but for me. It's a real example. Which is I wouldn't WanNa tell someone how much money I make. Sure there's a bunch of stuff I may choose not share with people because I'm aware of other person. I know that they're variable in the equation so I have to consider that other variable because there's a lot of things that like I don't have shame about. I'm happy to let ten people now but I don't want to tell a ten percents going to a thousand people. No I might not want two thousand people to know but I might be very comfortable ten people knowing. Yeah yeah that's fine nothing. Everybody should know everything about everyone right. But like I don't think the money thing is the same as the shrew because the money thing. There's this whole like societal layer on top. Like shouldn't talk about money that everyone's comparing money you are thinking about the other person industry rooms one your thinking about the other person but in relation to you. Well I'm going. Oh this person. Let's say was Kristen's mother who's traditional in many ways and I would go. There's no way I'm GonNa make her understand the value of mushrooms right so. I'm only putting something in front of her that she's only going to be judgmental of so. Why would I do that? I don't need to tell her that I don't need to make her worry. And I have a different opinion and I recognize different opinions than people in the World. Like some some activities scare people in some. Don't like I ride motorcycles. There are many woman that texts me like. I can't believe Kristen. Let you do that? Like that's very scary to them. They would be unacceptable that their husbands did it. I totally get it. That's their prerogative. But you know we'll just never see the same but you wouldn't keep it a secret from them that you you you feel totally fine and good about yourself that you ride motorcycles. You wouldn't be like I'm GONNA keep that a secret. Yes you're right about that but I'm saying if I established that there's these things that people never see eye to eye on so then as you just you explore different things along those lines and for me there can be gates of like five people know twenty people now thousand people know the world can now. Yeah you have. You have to be careful. You have to really be policing yourself if you do that because you have to start thinking like okay. The five people who I told about shrooms are the people who are giving me the shrooms. The people who are doing them with me people who don't care exactly if the people you're specifically leaving our our ones you're leaving out because they might say to you. That's a slippery slope. I told you should do it. And you just don't WanNa hear that sure that will. That's a very specific thing and I think that's a big problem if you were hiding it because you thought people might contradict what your opinion was on. You didn't want to be challenged on right right. I think that's like a specific thing but but I can think of so many things. Let's say I started acting fifteen years earlier and I like to wear women's clothes now. I might not have any shame about that. Yeah I might have told five people yeah and also might not have wanted the whole world was it would have affected my career and so there would be a secret. That is a secret and yet it doesn't create shame. I'm comfortable with it in yet. I don't need everyone to La. You know it's all specific to the example because it's the history of the thing right like for shrooms with you. Yeah there's some fear around that of course and for you wearing women's clothes there's no fear you know. And so it depends. I guess on each circumstance. And with that Perrier. I just think when something so secretive it generally means. There's a reason why there is a for the clothes because it because society is not there yet it would ruin your career. That's the reason that makes total sense. Yeah so what's the reason? A about drinking alcohol in a Perrier Cam. Like we'd have to find out what that reason is and then decide whether that was healthy or not healthy really boils down to Dr Alex which is like does it give you shame is that is it secret and you feel shame about it. I think that has to be the thing. We're evaluating so like if I find out your drinking and then you didn't feel shame and you're like okay. I drink every morning and I was like. You didn't tell me that you didn't ask me that right and then you were completely fine with it. You didn't care. Yeah and then your life was exactly how you wanted it to be. I just I. I'm hesitant to say that one things back like any one thing is. Some people can go do cocaine on their birthday weekend. Yeah I can't now but that person that can do that and does that fifteen times in their life that you know. I don't find that implicitly bad and I don't think anything's implicitly bad it's all in context and it's all about the. I think the the key the consequences of the behavior do you feel shitty. Are you miserable? Are you depressed? Are you on accountable? Are you know all these things we'd have to use to evaluate whether someone's thriving or not? Yeah and you were thriving all those. Yeah I guess it's tricky because this just this conversation just gets a loopy. Because if I was drinking in the morning there would be consequences would be. You're right. Yeah like the what I observed was there were this. I just discovered. There's been alcohol this whole time and no consequence so just curious to me. Yes yes yeah. Well anyway good debate. Okay John Meech So he talks about the Gallup survey that survey the public about what was most important moments in the twentieth century. He said civil rights was fourth and then he said was World War. Two second was atomic bomb. He couldn't remember three so I looked at up. Okay so one is World War Two two is women getting the right to vote in one thousand nine hundred twenty. Women's suffrage three is the atomic bomb. Oppenheimer four is the Holocaust. Nazis in five is the Civil Rights. Act So he was wrong. Oh boy we were naming the Civil Rights. Civil Rights was five five. Okay okay. Six was World War One seven landing a man on the moon sure eight assassination of President Kennedy nine the fall of the Berlin Wall. There's eighteen but mine got weird number. Let's do the eighteen. I know doesn't make any sense. At least nineteen it was the nineteen. Hundreds of they did twenty was the twentieth century. You're right eighteen zero sense except maybe let me make sure there's not maury now eighteen. Okay I'll keep going to. Of course okay. So nine was the Berlin Wall. Ten is the depression. Eleven the breakup of the Soviet Union. Twelve the Vietnam War Thirteen Charles. Lindbergh's transatlantic flight Fourteen the lodging of the Russian sputnik satellites fifteen. The Korean War sixteen the Persian Gulf War. Seventeen the impeachment of Bill Clinton wound an eighteen the Watergate scandal involving Nixon. So this is pre nine eleven clearly. There's no nine eleven. This is up until you're okay. Okay Yeah what. Do you think your number one would be most memorable events. I guess is it most memorable or most important. So that's I don't even like this question to inch pressure because you gotta get it right because like let's say I say the advent of the internal combustion and then someone quickly go like really more important civil rights and then I'll feel like an ass be some ensure that I'll miss a bunch of humanitarian ones. That I'll just feel like an asshole about all right but most memorable memorable events is much easier for me not important just memorable probably nine eleven and then and then space shuttle Challenger which you born yet but I know about it you know about it and every kid my age was watching it. I know it's I think memorable because they were tragedies very memorable as opposed to like the victories like I like that these many many are bad but many are positive like the women's right to vote and civil rights. Yeah right landing a man on the moon. That's nice that's pretty high. That's seven. I would've thought it was higher really you because winning. I mean left Earth or home and they literally went to this object. That mankind's been looking at for one hundred and fifty thousand years but argued that's even more impressive than the Berlin Wall and more impressive than women's suffrage. I gotta say now I mean we should just have. Women's suffrage is an accomplishment exiting exiting earth. Your host your planet. I think what's very sad is. It's it's not as impressive. It's not as hard to leave earth than it is to change the minds of a whole country about a of people true true. I want to leave Earth for a SEC regroup. Do I mean the idea of going in a shuttle and stuff sound awful like I have no desire to go into space really but I just wonder what it would like if I could just tell up there now? I wrote this movie. My friend Steve Brillon I wrote for paramount called Space Race and I had to learn a lot about space space and then I read all these accounts from astronauts and there's a high suicide rate among guys who've been up for a while you think it's chemical it could be it. Does something nihilistic happens when you yeah exit and look back at that little rock that everyone's so busy on team like everything's important. I now you become literally alien looking at the monkees. Well why couldn't it be the opposite? Why couldn't you come back to this? Be Like here's the the positive thing I want to add? Is that every one of those guys and Gals who've been up there. Almost all of them will say every time they had free time like they have all these chores up there clearly. Yeah but on all the off hours they all just stare at Earth like it's supposed to be the most mesmerizing thing to watch in it. Never they never tire of it because you can watch right because the earth spinning one thousand miles an hour. You're traveling at seventeen and a half thousand miles an hour in orbit. You're watching like. Oh there's Egypt. Oh there's this oh there's and you're just watching you know it's funny. Oh Yeah and you can see the lights. Wow you can see urban areas you can. They say you can see the wall. Great Wall of China from I can barely see it. I can barely see it in an airplane How can we see from Mars? The Moon Orbit when you orbit. You're only I don't know how many miles you are up. I should remember but you know you're not that far away from Earth. Yeah but even to get to the tip of her the edge of Earth. The flat jump off. Wow Yeah definitely memorable nine. Eleven would be number one for me for Memora- -bility you know what's so crazy and cool is just. And he mentioned this about presidents. You can't really even begin to write biographies until like fifteen years after minimalise because you can't see the full scope yet and you don't see the things that they've planted that then come back around and using the krona virus exam in. Npa is so crazy to think like this. Time is a very huge historical moment like this is going to go down biggest and in history totally unknown what the outcome is. Yeah in will not be fully visible for fifteen years minimally school. Google Cocoa. I mean I bet. Also one that would make the list definitely. Wouldn't make less than my book and I think in general would be Michael Jackson's thriller video. Don't think that's going to make more or less you're born you know is Obama becoming president. Yeah I can remember exactly where I was standing in chick but I was the first time I voted. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah. It was exciting. It was an Athens in Bora Bora. Oh we were out of the country to hear the results is you do have male. Yeah Wow maling. What was amazing is that there was some cast members who did not want him to be voted in. There are many who did. Yeah so it was a quiet three days after had this kind of like getting the negative results back from my Cova test. Everyone just kind of quiet. Yes I mean that also specifically that election and then this one coming up is going to be the same and this past one was or like it feels so intense like your side although maybe oh I don't I don't I think it's Newish that there's this really extreme division will yeah much more experienced feels so much more intense when somebody wins and somebody loses the first time I got voted for Clinton yeah and I was just like so excited so excited and I are so excited we call them our King King Clinton we wanted to worship him and make him the king and then we're so into Hillary Rodham Clinton and we call each other and we'd say this is the the Hillary Rodman Clinton we had like all these names for her. Yeah yeah well it's fascinating look back case so you said that you imagine he's one in five eleven year olds. Who have written a letter to Ronald Reagan? So I can't. There's no way for me to know. Okay he said he couldn't remember the day but Reagan did an interview in the fall of seventy nine sixty minutes interview and I looked. I couldn't find a sixty minutes interview in seventy nine. He did one in seventy five. That was like a big deal and then he did another one later. He's did few I think. But I didn't see seventy nine. Oh so he also used the quote. The arc of the moral universe is long but bends towards. Justice is my favorite movie of. All Time. Really good love. It ain't Obama on his floor in the Oval Office insert into the carpet. Really only got. That's cool I know for like you. If you're a Republican you're throwing up at this last ten minutes talking Clinton and then he had this scarf. But I'm going to give credit to Republicans. I hope I hope can appreciate that quote whether you're a Democrat or Republican. You should have hope that there's justice regardless if you don't I'm sorry I don't like you can be a Republican. Have that same ideal. Oh God yeah. I'm sure men most of them do so. He said the Episcopal Church which he's a part of has more women twelve percent of eleven thousand episcopal. Priests are female horrible. No it's not horrible. I wonder how many firefighters are women. Can you quickly? Let's compare the Episcopal Church firefighting. That's a good question. I almost typed in firemen. Well of course that's what they're called. Even when they're women recall her fire lady. That's a great name like a Superhero eight percent really churches blowing the firefighters out of the water. Okay good by the way. Though I don't I don't think that answers my question so great. So there's there's a lot of humans involved but there's no deities. There's no supernatural role for women in that religion. I'm sorry I totally agree. I got a little caveat about this. Eight percent okay. Fighters in two thousand eighteen ninety. Three thousand seven hundred. Eight percent of the firefighters were female of the career. Firefighters four were female. There were seventy eight thousand five hundred volunteer. Firefighters were female which was eleven percent of the total number of volunteer. Firefighters was different story altogether. Yeah volunteer firefighters are right. They were in my town. You could volunteer a little light and if all hell broke loose in exceeded the capacity of the Fire Department. They'd call out the volunteers in the the. You're like. My neighbor was volunteering. And you get to put that light on his dashing spirit for their help but he's not an employee our yeah we did. Yeah we have to go through some training. They don't just give you the light panicking here. I don't know what to do. We are the fire department. Oh boy well. That was fun. I always loved historians on. Yeah it's different. It's different Alice. Fine Yeah I love you.

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