5 Episode results for "George George Martin"
Episode 02: Game of Thrones | Final Review
"Yeah. Dry guys. Love. I love that music that, that introduces April. It is. It's one of those ones you can listen to just over and over the mood is set immediately. You're like everybody get your seat. Yeah. It's time for me by it sit down. And let's that title screen is just long enough to say, everybody stop what you're doing. And gather. Yeah. Which we kind of just talking about, we're losing those, those times in life where we can gather together so so geared, and I were talking and we're gonna we're going to get into the discussion of game of thrones. And we're gonna talk about, you know what, what, what are thoughts thoughts are on it, and where we think it's going, and where it's been and so on. But right before let's, let's just talk touch on that real quick. So I'm an eighties kid, same gen-x, and you made a comment and go ahead and share with just think I mean my, my son is eight months old. And I was just thinking my son is never going to get the privilege and honor of, of going with his dad and his mom to the video store to select that weekends. We typically got to go on Fridays that weekend's films. Yeah. We'd rent movies on Friday and you had to get there earlier else. The good ones will be gone. Right. So we get there like five six and then you, you know, you stroll down the aisle, my sister, and I got one of it, we got one each and so you know, that pick was like you had to think about it. What, what, what do I wanna spend my two hours watching, and it could be anything? Sure. So we had it wasn't our. And it was VHS, right? Yeah. As long as it was an are. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, the VHS and usually you had the box in front of it with maybe one or two if they were available. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right behind it that you would ram releases have sometimes six or seven right? But, but the the, the good ones. You know, the oldie Goldie kind of movie, you know, you maybe one copy maybe to the most. Yeah. So I actually in college I worked at a place called blowout video allow this was in Richmond. Kentucky and gear not one hundred and I'm curious to your thoughts on. This is well, but in Richmond, Kentucky. It was in the WalMart. Walmart's subway or the Bank. So at this time, there was this, it was a VHS rental video store called blow out video and everything at WalMart. That's at that point they did. But I, I remember people would walk in and working behind the counter. There's just me one person working small little shop, and people would come in, and you have them say, 'have, you heard of that one movie that has this one guy who attacks the other person. There's no internet nine db. You actually had a puzzle out with them as we talking a villain. Reduc insides fiction. Are we talking what we're so good at the move? We are. We learned it like this, like, we had to remember the actors and the movies and the what they were in before and next, and you know what characters they played all along the way, it was the best part of rehashing these movies of your friends on the weekend and leave it or not. I am not so young. I did not get to experience blockbuster blockbuster of my favorite parts of being again. Oh, that that's good to hear. That's got that. Yeah, yeah. When captain marvel came out, we know the block Zoe. That's right. So the blockbuster movie scene that, that I think she came to the ceiling or something. And my son was watching it with me. And I said remind me to tell you what, that is because to him, it's just another convenience or completely missed like what you know what is that? And that you're right. That's a joke completely missed. But for us, it's so nostalgic going back to that the people the eighties kids that were into this then. And we're now are in the movie theater taking their children are all that's right. That's, that's a that's a tip. The cap to us. It is it is we live in a on demand world I call it. And you know I didn't quite that. But, but that's, that's what it is. So on Friday nights to your to your note, Wease family. The five of us still have family movie night. You know, so we try to take advantage of that, as our kids are still young enough to where we have, you know, they're not going out all the time with fringe, so we own sound. That's right. I mean it doesn't have to be no electron IX. It's more about, like it's community together. It's community is family right thing yesterday. So I was building entertainment center, and I have a bunch of movies that were sitting next to my old TV and I was even thinking like I don't even use these anymore. My friend was like you have this movie, and I was like Yaba. I've literally never taken out of the packaging. It's all digital now. Everything digital in like three years ago. One of my favorite things was going out and buying the DVD came out, you know, out of the theaters don't do that anymore. And so what we would have to do, when we would go to the blockbuster movies. We didn't have the option to see the trailer. Right. So for family movie night, this past. It was last night. We had last night we can do Friday night. So last night, the five of us are on the couch, and I've got the apple remote. I use the apple TV so I'm going in and nothing on Netflix looks peeling. So I'm like, well, let's see if there's any good Reynolds. So we're going down the, the tunes. And of course, you can look at the trailer for every single movie. Well, it's watch the trailer. Let's watch the trailer. So the kids, let's watch the trailer. We must have watched like ten trailers. And Finally, I you know, my wife was like, pick one or we're done, you know minutes trailers. That's right. They would they would look at the trailer and say, you know, all whereas we would go to the blockbuster video, and you don't have that luxury. You could read the back. That's right. Check out the pictures because I typically had about three that's all, and that's all you could do and the actor on the front. Yeah. And hopefully it's a it's a good choice. Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes you did not choose wisely say, Indiana Jones. That's, that's right guys, we're going to talk a little bit about game of thrones tonight and. Garrod is just I have I have I had no idea to the extent of the knowledge Bank that this that this guy has with game of thrones. So we, we're in for a treat of just learning about the origins of it. We're gonna talk about the, the seasons kind of what we thought of from the art from beginning to end. We're going to talk quickly about how season eight wrapped up, and then kind of what the thoughts are on going forward and then with the books with Georgia are Martin now in all fairness and disclosure hunter you have not seen any of them, correct? I have not. I've just ride all of angry Twitter responses over the past week when ended on last Sunday. Yeah, it was so I, I tried to say spoiler free all season eight and so what I did because I don't have an HBO subscription each season. I would wait until they were done. I would get instruction and binge it useful. And then maybe the best way to watch it. I think so because then you're not disappointed. You can just get them, you know, you're just power housing. Through. Absolutely. If I weren't just so invested I absolutely on it that way. And that's how I do the vast majority of my shows with this when it was like I can barely wait till Saturday or until Sunday. I mean everything about my week was thinking what's going to happen this week can do this? I ask the click question wondering this. So what was the thinking the reasoning behind making it into a TV show and not a movie was it, just because there was so much material be wouldn't have been able to cover. It know there's chance several moody, they considered option it into a movie several times. George basically, turn them down and said, you can't you can't do my work Justice. There's no way you could possibly do my work Justice. They were talking about a three or four part movie series. And Georgia's like I'm sorry, this is more than ten hours. Okay. Could not do it in ten hours. Yeah. And my thought I went to token when, when you ask that question and I thought that's a very possibly similar question. That somebody may have asked could you do this? In a movie. Peter Jackson, obviously showed us that can be done. It can be done. But I think to the to the extent that these books were written with soem any characters development and everything going on. I think HBO did a good job with that. So that being said, walk me through I, I want to hear a little bit about your history. When you started with game of thrones. Tell me a little bit about how that started. And then let's just let's go from there. So I was in my English class, I was an honors English with kidney Cody Bertram and Cody had a blue book out. That was really big. And I was like, what is that? And he said, it's a storm swords, and I said, swords, I like swords tell me about sorts and he said, it's this really good fantasy book that you should probably is two thousand three that you should pick up and read because I love it. And I was like, you know, I, I was not wholly sold on at that time a fan. Ford and other six months or so. I have a copy of it, and I'm just like, hey, I'll just read it. So I pick it up. I read it's hard to get hooked on the books the first two chapters kinda rough. And then after that, it's just a roller coaster, if you can get to chapter three you're just you start to get invested in the characters. And then one of the first things that happened is the castle of winner fell is a guy named Rodrick ca sell his son is a kid named jury Casello who you're immediately endeared to, because he's he grew up in winner fell with the start kids. They all know him. He's kinda like their jewelry. Right. But he's actually works for the start family and his family has for generations joy dies. In probably the first hundred fifty pages, the book and immediately, you know, this is not the kind of book, I'm used to reading right? Like they're willing to shed or hopes and dreams immediately early on. Yeah. And, and so you knew you're in for a bit of a roller coaster, and then in the end of the first. Season, you we all know, Ned stark and what happened. Right. And it's just it's just a I did not realize that's what I was reading like. Oh my gosh. What is going to happen next? So you had. So, so the way that I believe, George Martin wrote there were two years, separating each of the books, if I'm correct or them that I, I don't know, in that and I know that went to four and then five, and they started to space out, more and more. There were like three or four years between book one and two. And then after that there starts to be a period of almost like six to eight years between each one. Okay. And so it starts to get to the point where my buddy, Cody, and I've been really good friends. You know, we talk about this all the time every time we get together. And we're just always the first conversation topic is still here waiting for the next book, right? You know. And that's how it's felt for almost the majority mine life. I remember the only books that I was eagerly anticipating where the Harry Potter books. Oh, yeah. And I remember the last one that I read, which will like every three year, kind of trajectory. Exactly. And so I remember by the time I started it. Oh, gosh. I was in my late twenties. I think I picked up the first book that, well, I'm just gonna read one of these heroes, all the hype about and I read the first book, I plowed through it, and then second one third one fourth one will that was it at the time. Yeah. Goblet of fire and what do we do now? Yeah. And I'm like okay, like binge watching TV show when you know it has more seasons. Yeah. Now, I'm addicted and there's no more left to consume. Yep. And, and at that point, I remember, you know, trying to check every news article and blog and wins the fifth book coming out. So I kinda know what that feelings like obviously, we didn't have to wait that long for, for JK Rowling to, to wrap that story up, but with the series now we talked earlier in the in camera show that. Georgia are Martin is going to continue the books, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's still got. So he initially said that he was going to do as far as I heard that we're going to be three more books. So he just put out a dance with dragons. That's the seven one that's the fifth book fifth book this. Okay. So then the, the six book was is wins of winner. Okay. That one is widely wreck. Everyone knows that where that's what we're waiting on. We're just waiting on a publishing date he submitted apparently to the publishers, they are doing critiques and they're going to send it back to him. It's kind of a process that he goes through the night through with every sure, sure, more specifically than I think, most authors do. Then what they were supposed to do. I thought was do a dream of spring after that in a song of summer, and it was going to kind of wrap up, kind of, like I got the feeling it was going to kind of be like Lord of the rings with kind of an any lick send off, you know, that kind of thing with this beautiful last book, about hot level, DAL annex gets that, and it's he has since said that he's not doing song a summer dream of spring will be the last book. So I think he's just going to do it all in one big compendium giant novel. I think during the spring is maybe going to be as big biggest one page page wise. It's going to be as big as book ever. I wonder if he's just tired or maybe he just knows how to wrap it up. I think if he's tired of anything. Well, if he's tired of anything, I think it'd be the fans. Yeah. Let me let me tell you a little more about my story with the shirts. Yeah. So after my junior year and learning about these books, I got into college and I ended up going to a party one night, and I met this girl at this party who is now my. Wife and the way we met was she was playing guitar and singing a song that I liked and then we got kind of striking conversation and we got to talk about books and I said, what, you know what, are you into? And she said, I love this book series, you probably haven't heard of it. It's called song of ice and fire, and that was it. You knew at that point, I'm told there was another guy who was like kind of coming backing on it. And I said, hey, Chris, it's over. All right, you go to the other room and I'm telling you right now. It's it's over for you. We got something going on so from then on that became part of our relationship as well about four years after that George announced that on his not a blog which is his infamous. He does a blog. It's called not a blog. Okay. And he announced that HBO had optioned his books as a show. So we were obsessed with it. So we decided you know, we would love to go on this book tour with him because he was going to go in this book tour around Ireland discussed that. And so I said, you know this. Is an amazing once in a lifetime kind of trip. We gotta do it. Well, I was in the fan club right Georgia's Georgia Martin's fan club. It's at the time it was called brotherhood without banners. I'm not sure what it's called now it's kinda too big for me to be involved. But anyway, so his wife Paris was in the was in the club and I knew her pretty well through the club. So I reached out to her, and I said, listen, there's this girl that I really would like to marry and I don't know when the opportunities going come up, and I've always every guy gets nervous about how you're going to ask. And that kind of thing, and I said, you know, I'm a reach for the stores kind of guy. And if I seen opportunity, I'm gonna jump on it. And in this case, I said, Paris is there any chance that George would be willing to help me with my proposal and she said, listen. I'll talk to George about it. I don't see any problem with it if he's okay with it. We'll do it. Okay. Let me geographically where are you? And where are they, they live in New Mexico? Okay. On both Paris, and George Libya, Mexico. Where are you at this point? I'm in Kentucky, okay? Yeah. And but we're in the same the same fan club. We might hate through the forums, which are the old school, laugh, the be or more. Exactly. And so, so we've talked a lot. And so she goes to George s George, would you be willing to do this? She sends me message back, says George says he'll do it you show up to Ireland. You're good. So we got a plane tickets. Ireland I went and bought a ring. We go to Ireland turns out, George has has scheduled a casting party for Ireland in Belfast. Right. We were planning on going on a book tour with him across Ireland. We were not planning on a cast party. We will not planning on being in an HBO show, long story short, I end up at the cast party four season. One after they had filmed episode one only hadn't finished the season yet they had just shot episode one and they were going to end up having to re shoot it. But we didn't know that at the time. Well, George gets up and makes them announcements about how this show might be successful. They don't know. You know it's been option. It's been green lit for at least one and maybe two seasons. And then he turns over the floor to me, and I get to ask her to marry me in front of every single actor that, you know, is this somewhere documented, like, was it on YouTube? It's under. G R, M Belfast moot in on YouTube, and you can see me her in front of. Ron down a he the guy from Titanic. Who's the captain that's Tannen? Yeah. He came over, and, and he basically took my wife aside and bought her during soul night, and toasted her all night. And then I went off with rob stark and me. Rob just hung out all night. And we just had the most incredible time, it's, it's still surreal to even talk about. But so I've been just just to plug that into I have been invested in this in a way that I can't even explain since two thousand three and two seed all brought home. I loved the show at the beginning. It was just so good. And then it took a twist towards the end. But that's maybe jumping ahead of the game in terms of what we're talking about. Right. So, so to me from what I from what I've heard, and I have not read the series of books as you have. But as a fan of game of thrones as a fan of science fiction fantasy of. Yeah. This is a big leap forward for fantasy people don't realize they did not option. They auctioned game. The very beginning saying, we think it's going to fail. Because we don't think there's a market for fantasy. Yeah. And they were also talking about the GI budget. They were just talking about how much money they would have to impose at it's on the end and I get it. But I was like, there's definitely an audience for this book skies. Yeah. You don't realize how much of an audience there is. Yeah. In and you know that what they what they did with. I remember watching the very first episode, and it was like you said, you're hooked from episode one that you on those wolf pups. That's right. Whether dire wolves. Right. And but you can see. When the books are done. Yeah. How the writing changes to cliff in new, you had a great analogy of, you know, I'm gonna ask you to kind of give that analogy again. Well, I think I can think of a lot of, but one that came off my head was, it's like when you, you like glass, there was this famous Washington Post reported glass who plagiarized, all these writings for, for years, and people thought of him is just the best writer. He's just the best writer in America. And then he they found out he was plagiarizing and then afterwards he was like guys it wasn't all plagiarism. Listen I could write a great arm. I'm really that talent that talented. And then he starts, he tries to write other articles and people reading it like what is this drivel? This is the worst stuff I've ever read. And that's exactly what it was like for me. It was like they fell off a cliff. It was just you had source material up until this point. And we know exactly when that point was because that's when it gets, that's it nonsense. Yeah. And. You see that you see that. So, so I went through, I think. I took a break from seasons. I finished season five or six and I took a break they had already done season seven, and then when I heard that they were wrapping up with season. Eight I was like, all right. I'm gonna go ahead and pick back up season. Seven I watched season seven, and then I finished I think it was last week binged the the season. Eight. Yeah. And I think I was texting you guys as I was. Yeah. How many episodes in I'm like, number one? I can't even see anything dark. They say YouTube. So somebody said five shades of sunglasses. It was like you're watching the five pairs of sunglasses on. Yeah, you must have to your turn your brightness up on the TV or try. Yeah. What didn't do anything? It could not help it. No. And that was, yeah. That disappoint is I can't no we're going for a night fight. But, you know, let's, let's help us out a little bit with something kind of a band of brothers affect thing in the dark there. I'm sorry. I'm not I'm not just confused irritated because I can't see it became an irritation. It became an air tation. And then, you know, just the incredible change. Let's just talk about Dinares tar Garin. Yeah. She goes from, you know, I think somebody, I could get behind so that, that a champion to a butchering tyrant. You know, I don't know that that's really far afield from where the books are headed if I'm being honest with you. Okay. She you know, they, they said it only in a hundred times in the TV show that when a coin is flipped. You know, everytime charleena's Boina corners flipped, and you don't it's going hedger tails heads being one of the best rulers ever tales being complete and total madman, and that has to do with a lot of their inbreeding because tarring Mary, one another. So I did not know that yet all target married there. Either sister, brother or cousin. And, and it's because keep the lineage pure, they have very distinct features. They purple eyes silver hair and they, you know that that's not really played up as much. But that's that's what they do. And no other family in west rose does that they come from Valeria. So they have a very different view of how this is supposed to go. And they're also they're not a ruling class, in Valeria when they left Leary, but they have dragons. So when they come over to west rose that easily conquer this place and they're like, you know, we were peons back and Valeria, but we're we're the ruling class now. Yeah. So we're going to you know, we're in America because we're the only ruling class. So you think that the that the story arc for her is, is possibly going to stay with. It may come to fruition just that same exact way. I think there's a lot of I think it's going to be more subtle in the books than it was clearly than it wasn't a TV show. But she's had some moments of descent into madness. First of all, you know, the Miri mas- dul is. Is the name of a she was in the TV show? I believe, well, where she where after called Rogo dies. She tells her, you're going to be barren you're never gonna have any more kids. Okay. And then there's also Pyatt pre who's this high priests who basically gives us some fortunes and is putting some, some source react, there that in the way she responds to you. Kinda see you kind of see, hints of what she may end up becoming and she clearly has the monster in there. It's just a matter if she can contain it. I think that, that's a lot of what the ours are trying to deal with their own inner demons, the entire time. And you know Ray goal is Reagan is, you know, that, that's part of his thing is he's, he's found Chee in his in his in his in being a target. He's the poet, king essentially to be. And then he dies now this is the one that gets dies by cow drug targeting. Yeah. He's Brigham second. He. Yeah. He, he gets killed by king, Robert, and that's that Robert's rebellion against his family. And Reagan was probably going to be one of the best kings of all time, and as we know now major spoiler alert. He's the father of John snow. And so that's, that's kind of where you get the he was the true king, he was supposed to be the true king, and his son is every bit. The true King, John is the pit ame- of who you'd want a ruler a person who doesn't wanna be a ruler. So catch me up quickly. Who Jamie Lancaster is the king slayer. What king did he kill who mad king? Heiress is the king. So that would be radars. Father other. Yes. So he was the king at the time when, when Robert's rebellion started so Roberts million started, because you get a piece of this in the show, is that brand Brandon stark, and his father went from winner fell who Brandon start being the older brother of Edward Ned went south because they had some grievances with the crown. And so they went south to go talk to the to mad ks about their grievances and instead of listening to the very reasonable grievances. He instead burn them alive in their armor, by hoisting them up, in, in one of those birdcage is kind of thing and literally burning them alive in it, and so they roasted well, actually, the father choked himself to death trying to get to his son who was roasting alive in the armor. It's one of the most tragic things you have read. But basically that starts Robert's rebellion. Because MAG heiress tells. John heiress. Aaron he tells John Aaron who is tutoring. Ed stark and Robert Baratheon time says give me those children. Give me them because they are children of, of rebel rebellion. Right. And so I want to kill them and John Aaron says, no chance zero chance that's going to happen. You're not going to exterminate to our most powerful families so that starts the John Aaron king, Robert breath, Ian and Edward start start Robert's rebellion. And it's an enormous war that lasts, you know, somewhere around seven to ten years, and, and that's where you see all these events from like the, like the battle to try. And when regards killed to you got to see, you know, the, the battle up at the tower joy, where John is born. You know. You know that all part of it, it's all part of Robert's rebellion. Okay so good history lesson there. Yeah. Yeah. So, so let me ask you this. Season. Eight favorite character throughout season. I'm sorry. See, but season one through season, eight who'd you say one of your favorite character builds are I, I don't know there's a lot that I like so it's really difficult to narrow it down. I think that in terms of accuracy, we talked about the hound earlier and grammar and show. I think the hound is one of those spot on characters ever ROY McCann the actor for that he kills it. He must have read the books. It's too accurate to not have read the book, Sander is so close torn giant Spain is another one that is really close to the character in the books that is exactly how is so I like both of those characters lot, I thought bear dairy and was kind of a wish he'd had better, you know, death and outgoing I love Eric dairy, and he's one of my favorite characters. He's the one that saves aria in the win about a winner fell, he gets stabbed much time and get up down. You know, there's a lot of characters in there that I like that, probably aren't mostly my favorite characters are not main characters. Yeah. Supporting characters. Yes. Yeah. I would say that my Tyrian. Oh man. Yeah. Not and killed it. I think he got a couple of Emmys. He deserves them. Yeah. George said when he wrote the books, he was thinking Peter in that role and then Peter damage later played the role, which is just amazing dream come true for him. And then he played it just to a point to a degree that you just. Yeah. User of the you deserve every EMMY they ever made. It's just so good. It's so perfect to the character. And you feel for me empathize it for him and Georgia Martin has always said, I wrote, I wrote teary Lancaster as me he is George Martin personified into character in the way he wants to see him so. Okay. And so, you know, there's a little bit of sarcasm, but a wit a lot of drinking cetera et cetera. I think that's kind of how George sees himself. He's that's kind of like the early late. Twenties early thirties version of Georgia Martin, I heard that there is a petition going around to have them re-shoot season eight if ever there was a time to do it. This might be it. I when I hear that I'm just thinking millions of dollars hundred million dollars on this last days and maybe three hundred for the last three they won't do it, okay chance. No chan-. No, there's no chance of that. But if there was going to be a show to reshoot it is clearly, this one, and I wish they would wait until George, you think about the money if George finished all the books, and then they went back and I wouldn't even care if they got a new cast, just reshoot from season five on. Right. Or I mean, well, I guess five six seven eight but, but to that, even if they did that, that would just discredit the producers, I think of, of saying you guys, you know, you blew it. It's almost like asking George Lucas. Hey, can we have Jj Abrams go back and do one two and three? Good. He he absolutely should to certain degree. I don't care how. Credited? They get gave up on the show to go direct stalwarts as far as I can tell. Well, that kind of worries me. I mean I don't know if. I like let me say this. I like Dan Weiss a lot. He wrote the original manuscript for halo, which was supposed to be made into the movie, and then got cancelled. And everybody says that, that manuscript was really good. You know the way I'm a fan of Spartan one one seven and it would have been an incredible journey. I think with him on it. David binney off, as I've told you I think, before, is the guy that brought us x men, origins wolverine. Yeah. He's the guy who brought us that version of deadpool. The man has no, like no credibility with me whatsoever. I read his only written book, which is called like city of thieves or something like that. It's terrible. It's just terrible. So you got to wonder how does a guy like that get the rains, I don't know something this epic in this, this lard, I don't know. I think they just went in pitched it. I think they said, we can write this. We're, we're Hollywood writers, and we can pitch, also Amanda Peet is, is they've been off wife, okay? She's easily more popular than him and more famous than sure. So me she may have had some influence on that. I'm surprised. They didn't put her in the show. Yeah. Now that you didn't even know that sickly had her as on standby. She's one of the best actresses I know of and she didn't get a role. So get it. So if I if I compare this again, I'm going back to an epic book series Tolkien, okay? Made into film, Peter Jackson, right? This is this is an individual infinitely respect to the similar to you. George R Martin's history in these books who who live? Literally new them inside. Now going back to the Soma really and understanding history of the, of the deep dive, and this is a guy who, who would say, I can take this and you can trust me with it. Yeah. Right. So I love it down appropriately. He got rid of I mean I was discouraged. I've said brought this up so many times now. But he got rid of Tom ado. I love Tom Bomba dill. He's a very, very minor character. But I think it important one in terms of the progression of the hobbits, and in terms of them accepting the role in what they're supposed to do. And, you know, cuts had to be made sat big vices had two more aid, and he made in my opinion all the appropriate ones. Yeah. He'd no, no. He he translated those books to film beautifully, and anyone an Oscar for best picture, return to the king. Yeah. Deserved it, it was amazing. So, so here's my question, which which kind of circles this common around. Were the two producers of game of thrones as vested in the books and the history as Jackson was to token or you to George Martin are these two individuals said, look, you can trust us with these, we not to do it or did they mess up because they thought they could continue on with the writing after they ran out of books. I. Have reluctant to say this a little bit. But I, I don't think so. I think that they I think they all Goldman when they when they had it they realized they had a gold mine. I don't I don't know that they've been off even read the books. I really don't. I assume he has just because he has to has probably, but I don't know how much attention he really paid. I think he kinda just skim read. I believe in wise, probably read the entire thing and probably got into some theories, and they got into some hashing out some fan theories. I mean they had to give George George Martin infant infamously said that he gave them the job when he he had him explain who is John's parents at a dinner table meeting with them, and they explained it. They got it. But then again, they could have gotten on any message board forum, right? Only internet and discovered that in twenty minutes that that's too easy of the question is, it's just too easy. Like tell me who your favorite minor character is and explain why. And give me a house that nobody knows about. And what's important, and that's the question that would have been. Right. I would ask the appropriate to say are you, are you trustworthy to take these books as the sewer Kranich men and translate it? That's right. That's just work tough questions like that. As far as I can tell. And so, I just think they realized that they had a gold mine, and then, you know, and that was it. They just said, oh, my gosh. People don't realize what this is and we've got a jump on it right now. What if we get George on the phone, and we say, hey, will make this and we option HBO. It was in the same class of shows up at the same time as Tra may and boardwalk empire and all three of those shows got, Greenland at the same time trae got made first and then boardwalk empire got made second then game of thrones afterwards. And you know. They think they thought HBO is out of content with the end of sopranos and the end of dead wood, and the end of all these other band of brothers and all that it's time for new era in television. Right. We have a golden, it's kinda like me jumping on the opportunity to have him engage to age -ment. They saw an opportunity, and they jumped on it as lightning bottle is what kind of commitment. It really was, and these fans are rabid take. It's. There's no pleasing them to a certain degree. And I think that, that war on them really quickly is that they were just tired of the criticism and tired of being second guessed all the time and, you know, people getting mad about I don't remember who the kid is the hunter, maybe you can help me out with this. The, the red haired who plays guitar acoustic? He was in episodes. I know you're. Yeah. I knew exactly Utah cheer cheer. Yeah. A lot of people, including me were really upset about that because it's not in the books that scene is not the books it was a useless cameo for you want to humanize, the Lancasters. They're not supposed to be humanized. You know, like we didn't need it, and it was just a superfluous cameo that seemed to be just about getting edgier in on the set just to drive a popularity. And we're just like, we, we don't need that, right? We are fans of this show, because it's good, not because you have Ed Sheeran. So I have to just quickly parallel that too. When I first heard that Samuel Jackson was going to be in Star Wars. Oh, yeah. I remember as Mace Windu, and I, I remember and I went and saw it, and I thought I'm not seeing, I'm seeing Sammy L Jackson. Yeah. You know and. And why did they do that? So I'm not trying to sidetrack this conversation. But you gotta wonder if it's well, we have a built in audience for this character. It might spike ratings, it might get more ticket sales into as a mentally popular even before they I mean, you had to have right high class actor to fill that role because we all know he was, you know, Jedi master. He's one of two Riley Jedi masters echelon is called. I think they didn't him. I don't know what they're called. I don't I don't know. I, I think just jet I master. I thought they quite is actually jet. I master to, and there's like the council of masters, you know, with like anyway, thank you. Right. Moving on. I think they have a special designation. Yeah. I don't remember the name of. But I I like that. They took a chance with John Boyega. And they, you know, it's like if you wanna fill a, a character, you know, let's, let's bring bring something new in and like daisy, readily asked them. Yeah. Like Jon snow did the kid Harrington John snow. Yeah. He was a stage actor before this. He was in a war horse, which is a or into some Broadway. Elbert with this new. Okay. Okay. But that was all he had done to that point was it. Alfie Allen had been a nothing. The guy that played played Robb stark Richard Madden had been voted Scotland's, best dressed, man, and had been in a couple of soap operas. I believe none of these people were famous and that's what's beautiful. About it. We have no context for any of them. Well, you know, the only one I was famous and Peter English, but, I mean, that was Sean bean. That's those are the two that brought the star, but so it's very important care with a lot of depth. And you have to have a -ccomplish actor who can play green immediate. Yeah. I agree with you hundred percent. But I think this is Hollywood. It's how they it's how they build it. It's who knows what happens behind the curtain for shows like these, but to see season eight wrap up. I think the consensus there's a lot of disappointment. I think there's a lot of avenues that they could have taken. And then we were talking earlier, that even Georgia are Martin said that he would have liked to seen seasons. Nine ten eleven possibly twelve. Is that right? Yeah. He said he said, we could have gone episodes, or seasons twelve and thirteen twelve hundred David Dan, about why we didn't do that through them on the bus ended view. And I think he's angry about it. He's just sitting here saying, look what you've done to my property when I hear. Has passed on so many people ask to be involved in this project, and he trusted them with this material? He said, I'm giving you what basically the sum, total of my life, and it is in your hands with, as you will. And they said, you know, we're really too busy to give you more seasons. I if I were George throw them under the bus, and then stomp on them does does. Huge spoiler alert coming right now, does Dinares die by John's hand in the book. Well, it's not written yet. Okay. We know we don't know if she's still she hasn't met, John yet in the books, hunters, looking at me, like I have no idea what you're talking about. But that's all right. Yeah. So disappointing hunter you see the scene another another piece. That's missing. There is a child known as a on egg on target area, who is not John snow. There is a another supposed- targe Aryan, who is alive, who is on the boat. You know, kind of getting into the weeds, here, you need to kind of go read some of this on the on the internet. But in the books, he comes he comes back to west rose as well. And he's, he's in west roasts with a guy named John Coniston another guy who's not in the in the show, and that's all going on right now in the books, and it's just very fascinating because there's so many more players in the game of thrones in the in the in the in the books that are in the show and those players matter in storyline. Right. A lot. Right. We were talking about Victorian. Great joy guy is missing cetera et cetera et cetera. There could just keep going on the list. But I, I would I've said is that this season was just done complete injustice in every in every since it's militarily nonsense acting is just not great. They should've shot some of those scenes over again the darkness we dragons getting shot at a mid air from thousand yards away when they can't see the boat. But the boats can apparently see them. Yeah, it's just. One ridiculous thing after another and. I, I said this earlier in, in Cambridge show and say here this is going to go down in history as possibly the worst the worst television ending in the history ever, even beat seinfeld's ending. I, I mean, I don't think there's even anything that compares to. I think I think you are you are right on almost every single account of what you what we've talked about. I wish I had read, I'm thinking, I'm gonna go back and re and we reach everybody read the books. Yeah, because it's so much richer, so much more, beautiful less nudity. And, and the richness of these characters comes alive. More. And what's in your magic potion, they can never take away right? Just because they wrote some nonsense ending. What's in my head and what's happening in my world is so much more vibrant and beautiful than anything they could have written or half written. So we'll pick this back up gear after I finished the series. So also, I'll start it and yeah lease. And that way, we can have some more discussion game of thrones. Louis. So guys, we're going to wrap up this episode on the review game of thrones. Thanks to Garrett, thanks to hunter. And we'll see you next time.
Powers & Principalities, Episode 0: Diana Butler Bass
"Hello, I'm Blake chastain and this is powers and principalities. The show focuses on the systems and institutions that prop up white evangelical power and influence in America and the world season one is focused on white evangelicalism in Christian nationalism. I'm delighted to share this conversation. I had Diana Butler Bass you. At initially planned for this conversation to provide a survey of the early development fundamentalism and American Christianity. But our talk went to unexpected places. We ended up talking about trauma trauma responses and its role in spring. Some waiter developments in American Christianity. To that end felt like a bridge between this show and expand Jellicoe the podcast I've been hosting for the past four years. Diana night talked back on May fourth twenty twenty and a lot has happened in America since then. The unjust death of George Floyd on May twenty fifth sparked nationwide reckoning with America's original center racism. Protests were organized across the country as people were moved to collective action even amidst and uncontrolled pandemic. If this conversation fails to capture or reflect the urgency of that moment and all subsequent moments it is because when we spoke they had not happened yet. This episode is produced by Jake Lewis. You can support the show by rating reviewing it on apple podcasts and by subscribing to my newsletter at Post Evangelical Post dotcom. Without further Ado let's get this conversation Diana. Butler Bass. Hi everyone and welcome to the first episode of the new show powers and principalities. First guest is Diana Butler Bass. She is an academic and author of several books including Christianity religion a People's history of Christianity and her latest book is titled Grateful Less Aversive practice of giving. Thanks Diana, thanks for joining the show. Well. It's an honor to be the first guest. Avenue on your new podcast. Well thank you very much for for coming on I. Really appreciate it. I wanted to have you on the show because you really excel communicating about American religious history to popular audiences, and you also studied under George Marston at Duke, who's a major figure in the study of American evangelicalism and fundamentalism here in the United States and that the show is really all about. Giving context to that side of American Christianity understanding the history of fundamentalism and its relationship to both the religious right from the round. The seven days up to now within trumpism is just really really important understand what's happening politically and socially. So with that in mind where and when did modern fundamentalism began to take shape here in the united. States. Know with every historical. Question. That is. An argument that historians have. trained. By Marston and I think that the way that he taught us the the story and that I think is Still not to the evidence is that it really began in the late nineteenth century the sort of the general way of understanding American religious history when it comes to evangelical fundamentalism is that much of protestantism throughout the nineteenth century? Had An overall evangelical cast to it the Evangelical and Protestant and Christian kind of the same word and. You know it. It meant mostly a kind of protestantism that was personal that took Bible reading seriously that was not institutional strictest centers really elevated the priesthood of all believers, certain kinds of distinctive of protestantism that took hold in the United States but you get into the late nineteenth century and that overall sort of evangelical ethos of American protestantism began to be challenged. By a whole. Range of issues the issues were internal theological. Once he has in the late nineteenth century, you begin to get the development of a biblical criticism and historical understandings of the Bible that really rock. The whole world of of protestantism, not just in the United States, but in Europe as well. So you have those kinds of internal issues and then there's a number of issues related to social change like immigration and economic concerns. things that lead to the development of the Social Gospel issues that begin to prompt. QUESTIONS ABOUT Race and ethnicity that people don't necessarily deal with terribly well, and so you have those those internal questions. They have these external sort of social movements pressuring Evangelical Ism, and then there's also A. Whole Bunch of scientific issues. That come to the fore a about. Creation and the age of the Earth and geology and biology and ablution, and all of those things began to release fabric of protestantism and its in in that pressure with this whole set of internal theological shoes, large social changes in scientific. ideas. that. You begin to develop a split. within American protestantism and that split create sort of two large camps of Protestants with a whole bunch of people in the middle you know trying to avoid. The trouble. Because that's always the case. There's always a whole bunch of people in the middle looks at all these kinds of arguments and say, wait a second I'm that doesn't define me but but but nevertheless, you get these two kinds a very loud republican groups that start to argue and one group says. For the most part That Christians can accept scientific change and have to deal with the social problems of a given age, and there's nothing to fear about biblical criticism and that group becomes known as. What was I just called Liberal Evangelical. And then later shortened to liberals and modernists, and then the other group who said No. You can't do any of that you. The scientific findings have to be taken secondarily to biblical narratives that these kinds of social changes don't matter because the Gospels is the same yesterday today and forever, and then the theological issues they were just mostly unwilling to look at the kinds of biblical criticisms that were developing and said, no, you know the Bible you just read a straightforward. And so that group who began to really say we already had everything we needed that the Gospel has already been preached in that all we have to do as reassert the traditional interpretations in traditional doctrines and. Thing will be fine and that group became known as fundamentalists. You think it's fair to describe those fundamentalists as reactionary against all these different social intellectual changes as you mentioned there like within the realm of Christianity, there was what is called the Social Gospel which is very oriented towards addressing social needs, and then it was the response to German high criticism that led to the development of a lot of fundamentalist beliefs as well as all these social things. Do you think it's it's fair to use a term like reactionary to describe the way in which. These fundamentalists basically dug in and said that this is actually the the way in which we should. Understand the scriptures and understand our relationships with society. You know I think that had you asked me that question maybe even five years ago I would have said yes. That that's that's fair. But I think now. kind of see it a little different way. Re The word reactionary. itself is really loaded term and you know if we think of the the sort of. What it was like to live in the late nineteenth century which I actually think we as early twenty first century people can have a lot of sympathy for I see a lot of similarities in the sort of the cultural anxieties of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century here a hundred years later, and so what I think happens at any given moment in historical time line is that stuff occurs you know new ideas come up new books are written new ideas. You know Kinda new patterns of community come to the fore people who haven't previously had voice be express their voices and. All of that causes reactions among all of every group of human beings. And and so now when I would have said one time Oh. Yeah. The fundamentalists or reactionary against liberal culture and that they were just trying to protect themselves against these changes I think that probably the fairer thing to for me. Fair way for me to think about it at least is that. Human beings react to change. And Liberal of the people who became Protestant. Liberals were reacting to change as well. So. They were reacting by saying. You. Know these are these ideas are worth listening to maybe there's something here that we can learn from. Maybe we haven't always understood the what. Jesus. Intended in terms of living in. Adjust universe, and so they were reacting their adaptation was a reaction to those those things and I think fundamentalists were doing the same thing as well. You know as they were also reacted and and they adopted and so so what I what I think is the the false narrative is that either one of these two sides emerged from the nineteenth century into the first years the twenty twentieth century maintaining. A kind of protestantism that had been practiced say fifty or seventy years before. Both groups Reacted to social change intellectual change. And I think also internal pressures within their own traditional ill edition. and they formed two different pathways. Really. Of. Adapting. To those changes. As and so I would rather think of that. Is Adaptation and and. Transformation rather than just being quote unquote reactionary because of the nature of the word the action, very. Loaded Connotation for sure. Yeah. It does this conversation I. Think you know one thinks it's important. Do is to try to. Win. Any good historian is always trying to do is put herself in him or himself you know back into the narrative and A. How how would I feel? How did these people? How do these people see their moment and so so I think that you know very few people were. Were standing there. You know kind of imagining themselves. In a way that was negative they saw themselves as the heroes of their own stories and one group. The more modernist and liberal types were heroes in their own story. They believe that they were protecting your saving Christianity by. Adopting these. New, ideas and fundamentalists had the exact opposite approach. Yeah and I I am certainly sort of showing my cards a little bit as being someone that mood from more conservative. Faith of origin to one that is more open, more liberal for lack of a better word. So. I appreciate the the way in which you responded to that question even the way in which I which I worded it. So thank you for exploring that with me. Right makes a difference I think into how we read the stories. You know because I mean I can I can look back in the history fundamentalism WANNA tear my hair out because I journey through. Evangelical ISM as a personal. Experience of personal narrative. Mostly in the nineteen seventies, eighties and eighties for about fifteen seventeen years of my life. And and so. You know coming out on the other side I had very strong reaction against it and at the and that was very problematic for me because I had considered my south evangelical, all the way through my undergraduate, my seminary education, and even into my PhD when I was studying studying with Marsden as so my personal identity was wrapped up in the historical narrative that I was studying and while I was working with this historical narrative I always wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt because I wanted my tribe to look good. Which is true for a lot of the people who are. Well known historians in this field you know Mark Noll does not want a marginal who taught at Wheaton for years and then Notre Dame. You, know he he doesn't want. To look bad those are his people you know George, George. Martin. Did Not want jobs look bad those his people in and and so. What you try to do historian and I'm so grateful that I studied with these these types. Of of thinkers, it was almost all men because there were very few women in the field back. Then there was only one woman a real note, a woman named eat bloom Hoffer who studied history of Kinda cost the whistle. And so Most these people studied with you know they they were in a real on real mission to. Understand. What had been good about their own tribes. And that meant that they approached. Fundamentalism far more sympathetically than any other. Of. Scholars since. The argument started one hundred hundred years ago. So. So I really I wear that I. Hope Still. Well even though I think I struggled with that as soon as I found myself in a much more liberal place I. Sort of wanted to go back and you know sort of trash the fundamentalists historically but I found that I really kind of couldn't. And I think that. People always think of me as a pretty harsh critic of fundamentalism have no idea how much harsher. All along the way and I actually. Because I I sort of stepped out of the place and I had less invested in than trying to defend my tribe I think, I've actually kinda see the history of fundamentalism is very different ways than a lot of my colleagues who were either liberals who wanted to run it down or who were kind of tribal. Elders who were doing great work as I think good historians should do but who were nevertheless personally invested in ways that they? Wanted to tell the narrative and it's you know. Most glowing terms as yeah and there's obviously so much Turkey in so many negative experiences within fundamentals. I'm these are definitely not always the easiest things to talk about, and it's definitely not something we can all be summed up in a single conversation but I I do totally understand that perspective to just in that. A lot of people come from this background and it is. It is understandable how people think that way even if they develop a different way of thinking later. And that doesn't discount someone's experience, it doesn't discount. the injustices that are that are perpetrated through these things and through a lot of these beliefs But to your point, these were also people trying to understand a vastly changing world, and that is definitely something that that we can relate to in our current moment in history. And you know I think that it's always. A good practice you know to kind of travel back that hundred years and to. A. Continually. Look for the things that surprise us you know One. Of the things that liberals hate to talk about, for example is How incredibly poorly Protestant liberals handled Jim Crow in the late nineteenth century. You can look pretty far and wide. In some of the best liberal theology and even social ethics in late nineteenth century and find any mention at all of lynching or or Jim Crow or the or the quote unquote race problem as a matter of fact, you'll kind. Of the opposite that's really unpleasant. Very hard to deal with that is you do find within some of those theologian, some a fascination for you. And One of the one of the downsides of liberalism is that when it was looking at new thinking. one of the ways that was considered to be kind of new thinking about the race problem in the late nineteenth century was around the emerging science science quote unquote of Eugenics, and so you know the same people who on one hand said Charles Darwin's right and that that doesn't take a bed doesn't undermine. Of US Being Christians that we can believe in evolution and be blamed Christianity if you had asked those same people about what they might think about eugenics they. eugenics in Saint Category Trail Star wet and so and so there's a problem. You know. If ever, there was one. and then you got a host of problems that develop within fundamentalism about the Dick yearly hierarchies, race race, and gender Real inability. To, be able to. Best I'm thinking trying to think of. It they. The gate keeping impulses of fundamentalism were so extraordinarily strong and so there was a kind of I think almost. Institutional terror faster that gets built in two or three years of fundamentalism because if you cross certain lines are considered to be out. And at one point I actually wrote a paper that was never published. It was right as I was sort of leaving evangelicalism there. I have these papers, the three of them on the history of fundamentalism that remain in my files as unpublished were. Ready to pay for on the. An early president of Biolo- University Bible Institute of Los Angeles in the Nineteen Twenties Nineteen Thirties and this president of Biolo- pressed against some of the edges of fundamentalism and The it the institutional and serve. `gate-keeping powers of the new fundamentalist movement came on down on him like a ton of bricks and eventually ruined his life. And that's you know that's been a pretty constant thread in fundamentalism is the destruction of. Of individuals for the sake of what they feel like it's true rain and so neither, one of those things is you know what I explained about liberals a moment ago through there on. critical acceptance of all forms of what they perceived to be science or fundamentalists fascination with. Making. Boundaries and the control of other people. Is really part of the problem. Then you got this goofy thing that happens like ten consoles I'll people hardly ever talk about them but one hundred years ago. There were some very radical forms of pentecostal ISM. There were pentecostals who were so close. To being Marxist that not separate the them intellect air politically from one another lot of pentecostals were involved in labour organizing. Democratic socialist movements flirted with the edges of Marxism their papers written about how pentecostals in the nineteen thirties paved the way for the new deal and FDR during the Great Depression especially in California, and there's a whole book written called the vision of the disinherited, which is a radical interpretation of the lower class roots of pentecostal is on, and of course, Tanna was in its earliest stages fully integrated. when so here you have these kind of things liberalism and fundamentalism with this other weird KINDA cousin growing up on the sideline. and all of this is happening in the early, Twentieth Century to American Protestants, and so you know what's unexpected here you know is like this is really interesting story and we don't pay attention to all of its unanticipated edges. Yet it's a very good point and so much of what we are talking is sort of been default talking about the white church and things like the pentecostal tradition as you mentioned, have a lot more. Ethnic Diversity and representation in that regard that whenever we're talking about these sorts of things. And the history of what becomes the religious right that is often oftentimes discussing primarily a wide experiences. At Scranton Accepts Ota's brought to you by anchor. If you haven't heard about anchor, it's the easiest way to get started making your own podcast. First off anger is totally free and cost you zero dollars to host your podcast or thinker. Fifteen dollars a with another hosting service. Second has all the tools you need to record at it start publishing podcast right from your phone or computer. If you have an idea for podcast, you can get started today with the criminal and skills. You have right now and the platform can grow with you as you learn to develop your craft. Anchor will also handle all the podcast directory listings for you and distribution spotify apple podcasts and other popular platforms like pocket CASS, overcast and radio public. Finally anchor offers you the ability to start making money for your podcast right away with no minimum listenership requirements. That's a major bonus for independent podcasters like me. So. If you haven't, if you have an idea for a podcast, aren't sure how to approach the technical side of things her how to monetize your show give anchor try download the free anchor APP or go to Anchor Die FM to get started. Do. You want to talk a little bit about another key historical point and that early twentieth century period, which is the scopes monkey trial, and again using reaction just that the effect of that verdict for for some time it was considered as if the fundamentalism went quote unquote like ground around that time that is not really the consensus anymore I don't believe had that affect the way in which? These groups that had become begun to codify and begun to. Formulate formal institutions. There's a lot of Christian colleges that were that were founded in the nineteen twenties that became an are still around one hundred years later. At that are more conservative evangelical bat sort of of the Christian College. More founded around that time. But how did dad particular historical events at effect that conversation amongst again, using these broad terms of fundamentalists and more Liberal Protestants. I I can't believe you're actually heard asking. Me To talk about these things because my. My longtime editor, who is now my literary agent? A He has been. Begging me for the last five years to write a new history. Of this very time period of a condom Elizabeth and Evangelical Ism. Beginning in the teens in especially in how the scopes monkey trial has an impact on. American protestantism going forward and and I think part of the reason why he wants me right book is because. I am dissatisfied with a lot of the interpretations of what happened and you named one of them and one of those interpretations as well. There was the scopes monkey trial which the professor who taught evolution was brought on put on trial by the State of Tennessee for teaching, Darwin as teaching run against Lawn state density. And of course, a John Scopes was the name of the teacher and he was found guilty of teaching evolution and he was fine I think it was one dollar ten dollars very little amount of money for for his crime. So in effect, what happened was the anti evolutionary forces although they WANNA. in a very sort of narrow sense of the word winning the case they lost as my old friend. Randall. Bomber like saying they lost in the court of public opinion and I. Yeah. I. Actually. Misspoke when I said that that the verdict was in favor of evolution it was. And that was me now misspeaking because I was I was thinking about the public opinion. And I was actually. So my thinking about like twenty five, I didn't. My. Mistake I want to correct that on the air. And that of course is is you know what happened historically and so what my? Historians have done with. That has been interesting over the last almost century now. and Wine, historian say, Oh, well, liberalism wants you know and then they they go on and if you read a lot of history of American religion particularly ones. And Sixty seventies and eighties you would have seen a kind of a triumphal sort of. Depiction of the liberal tradition in America. and. That begins to kind of get all messed up you know with. Jimmy Carter getting elected president in one thousand, nine, hundred, seventy six is like people's ways where did. This come from evangelicals. Southern Guy who's talking Jesus and what how, how, and and so the narrative was liberals one fundamentalist went away well, then the narrative became. Hey Liberals seem to win. Where do these fundamentalist come from you know and so The first take was always regional religion that was mostly confined south and then the the second take on it was that These groups had consigned themselves to the margins of American culture a but the more recent and I think the the better. Understandings are is is yes fundamentalist. Did I think feel. Defeated in certain ways in the mid nineteen twenty particularly related to scopes but it didn't cause them to go away and sort of lick their wounds on the margins of culture. If a push them into a new kind of creativity. And that creativity. Begins to express itself in the founding of a whole bunch of new institutions new mission boards, New Seminaries New Bible colleges I went to one of those schools a when I was a graduate from Westmont College in California, which was founded in nineteen. Forty. And so So that holds the the late twenties. The nineteen thirties and nineteen forties while a lot of American religion was kind of in a slump do to the depression fundamentalists were kind of. Surprisingly regrouping themselves and said, okay well, you know if a the New York Times doesn't want us for go heddon start her own publishing houses. And so so there was a lot of surprising in creative investment that fundamentalists were making in a world. That they could see. would. That they hoped would emerge sometime in the future to have a more prominent. Public Voice again. So. So if you like, I, said, he looked at them fairly you do see. More going on there and you know just a bunch of. Hicks who have been embarrassed by elite culture and who take their. Wounds and. Run Away And so so those are kind of the interpretations that are present. In a sort of in our culture and the the thing that I'm playing with, and then I'm really interested in. Is. This is. Kind of weird to say this is kind of out of fashion historically. Not Much I can do with it, but I'm kind of become very interested in a psychological interpretation. Of American protestantism in the twentieth century. L. What I think happened around scopes is incredibly important. And I think what happened was. You get this narrative that begins to appear in. The press. Around scopes and it's an if you if you're. If, you just look at it objectively in some ways it's it's it's really kinda nasty narrative. and that is the people who are holding to the fundamentals of faith. Who are in Biblical literalist are all depicted as you know, sort of unwashed masses of? People who don't think about anything. And I mean they're depicted as Hicks that's where the that's kind of. You actually get language like that. That's used in major. northern newspapers and in radio media. About. The people who are involved in scopes, monkey trial, and so all of a sudden there are there are people within fundamentalism who do understand themselves intellectuals who went to places like Cranston seminary and who are the pastors in Churches, not just in small southern towns but in northern towns and cities and they kind of maybe. You know. They they actually. Hold to these fundamentals maybe not in the same way that is being demonstrated in Dayton Tennessee at the time, but they are sympathetic to. Not Going fully with Darwin and they're pretty well educated people and now sudden. All fundamentalists are being painted with the same brush those same brush of being these rural unwashed masses who really aren't worthy of A. Serious attention in the culture. And so when they lose in the court of public opinion as it were. That does something to them. You know I can't imagine. George Marsden, his own father was one of these well educated Presbyterian. Conservatives. and. Then all of a sudden George would some Georgia sometimes relate the story when in class is that when he was a young boy? He couldn't figure out why all the sudden his neighbors. Were like making fun of his family. When his father as a conservative. resisted some of the more liberal moves made in the Presbyterian Church. And with this did, is it? You, know it really created. For. The Marsden's you know this kind of sense of. How, what? You know we're the same people we've always been in wireless sudden is. Our people turning against us. I think that this narrative that the liberal America embraced about fundamentalism, they were Hicks and. uneducated and had nothing to say to the world and all this kind of stuff. I think that that. psycologically. made fundamentalism kinda worse. Since just they're their pride had been wounded. So many times in that regard yes. Sure. Any of us who are. Treated with that kind of derision. Go into a place of of extraordinary defensiveness. And what then? I think what happened is to use this this language that I think a lot more of us are familiar with now. Is, I think the scopes monkey trial created trauma. Four conservative. Protestants some of whom identified with word fundamentalist. And in that trauma than. becomes The template. On which their reaction takes place and so okay. So and now this see, this is the place where I think you could tell the story of American President Ism really differently. Because here now, you have a group of people who have a worldview admittedly that is about gay keeping that is admittedly Willing to engage certain kinds of ideas in the culture that is very interested in boundaries that really wants order and it it prizes order. So that's the worldview of these these conservatives that was their adaptation to emerging liberalism in the early part of twentieth century and then they feel. That all of that has been. Assaulted in the worst most undignified way possible in this large national media. SORT. Of Frenzy. and. So they move into a place where a fuel incredibly traumatized and what happens when your trump type person is that your first. Thing you do is you want to fight back. You know you want to an end. So what how they fight back? Is that they come Liberal Protestants as hard as get. And they you know heresy trials and name calling and say that liberalism can never be Christianity and they remove themselves from liberal institutions because they feel like they cannot be polluted by the contagion and so. So what you what you have then is is now liberals are sitting on the other side of this and their goal seconds. Any COP down you know We're we're Christians to you. Know we we're Christians we. We believe in the Bible. You know we worship God we have Sunday school we love our children we're doing missionary work and yet what happens now then the next move is this the people who have been traumatized work is. There foolish shame. They're and they're trying to project their shame out into the world and what are they do, but they turn around in a scapegoat. Their own cousins. In the very nominations that they that had just been that they've just left. And they say door the problem. And and and nobody anybody who's being scapegoated. They they responded at and they say, well, you know. To, the person who's doing scapegoating either well, you don't exist or you don't matter or we told you. So we always knew that you were really people and so it rea- FIS. The original complaint? All it does for the people who are now being scapegoated is it makes the people who are who are carrying. The sense of shame for this trauma. It makes them dig dig their heels in, and so what I really think we have in twentieth century protestantism is this American protestantism is this endless sort of cycle. Of Shame and scapegoating. And it. It's never resolved. And all it does is it keeps getting passed down into. New Generations. So you think that that sort of response makes them unable to do you think that makes them unable to admit that when it came to the original thing in question which was this trial, they can't even accept that scientific consensus has moved on because they are more wrapped up in the response to the consensus and to the embarrassment of followed. And then that is what sort of feeds the cultural war as. Because they have. A stayed in sort of particular as you've mentioned like hierarchies important in any. Any additional information that threatens a hierarchy is viewed as A. Life or death style threat. Iraq. I, understand both perspectives. However, the way in which culture wars continue to play out. Within these. Within these groups and now Mike you fast forward one hundred years, and now there's at least two entirely separate media ecosystems in which someone can exist. As someone can exist in a world in which they You know the I've heard as that the fortune to Fox. News pipeline. I'd like a deeply conservative type of belief and interpretation of an objective events, and then you have the the other side of. The media, the left, and however you want to classify that. It's just hard to to to hold hold that and see that across one hundred years. But do you think that that's part of the fund? A struggle for fundamentalist is separating a catalyzing event from the emotional response to it. Yes and this is where a whole different kind of science comes into play and in LAS couple years at. All these different things like I said, my interpretation of fundamentalism is really changed radically in the last couple of years and part is because I've spent line reading a lot. About Trauma and shame and also processing some levels of these things that are part of my own life. which I've written about as well. As a survivor of sexual assaults and then also as a survivor of religious trauma. Would say as well. So I think I think. What happened you know is the original thing this this this argument that happened within. We we have to always remember that American protestantism sort of. Held itself very proudly out as America's religion for all the diversity that existed within American protestantism. In the nineteenth century, there was a lot of it and people love to argue between methodist, calvinism and all these kinds of different things. There was nevertheless this sort of. A sense of American identity as a Protestant nation. And that was a that was a very sort of Crowd Marker. Of what it meant to be an American in the world especially as the United States was leaving its infancy and becoming a global player, the Protestant nation you know as it were. And so. So. So it was in that. sense of identity where Protestant that this this dramatic kind of Right occurred really and this breaking up of this sense of identity, and so you get to these events in the in a in the twenties. And I think that they just. They were led up to buy a whole series of events. But when they happened crystallized, it became the the. Sort of the prism through. The past would be seen in the future would be interpreted and it doesn't surprise me in a we're talking altogether on the day that marks the year anniversary of Rachel Evans Dine. You know her first she and she's from Dayton Tennessee and the her first book was called evolving in monkey down. And it was about this very thing about growing up really in the heart. Of where this crisis? happened. And what is what was so the point is what I have learned from science and psychology and. Sociology and all the different kinds of things that inform my larger work. It's a theologian and historian. Is that there's this field. That's emerging as a very exciting interesting field. Is called epigenetics. And the idea of epigenetics and it's it's. Research it's very deep. It's research in this field is very profound. and. What it's showing, US is that trauma. Imprint. Patterns not only on the people who go through the trauma, but on the DNA of the people who go through the trauma. And when the next generation is born. That DNA, the DNA that was affected by the trauma is altered. In the next generation. And that we actually pass. Trauma and Potentially. Things like shame about trauma. And our. Reactions. To Trauma. We actually pass those on to the next generation of people biologically. And, most work is done around to different kinds of trauma survivors, Holocaust survivors, and their families. and. So a lot of it's being done in Israel and is in Israeli universities, and then a another body of the research is being done around A sexual assault and people who are born to people who were born to people who were sexually abused. And so. All of this research is showing that our DNA actually gets. Twisted or deformed. Broken in different ways by trauma and that that goes. I logically into the future. And so what what I think that that shows US researchers are arguing is it is it shows us that. People who are born to trauma victims. Have They're predisposed to certain kinds of emotional. And physiological responses just in the same way a person who has A. A cancer mutation in their genes. If you put them into a certain kinds of situations, certain kinds of situations environmentally. They're more likely to develop cancer than somebody who doesn't have that. Mutation. And so now we're discussing discovering that that's true trauma as well. Is that you can carry around a trauma gene and you would be just fine. But if something happens to you, that is like a trauma that might have been imprinted in your genes by an ancestor. That you have the trauma mutations as it were in your gene is that you will react. As if you are being traumatized and so in same way, a person with a trump or the the cancer mutation has to avoid the environmental threats has to live a healthy life estimates certain kinds of of health decisions. They're developing treatments before the development of cancer that potentially key people from developing cancer. That's what we we have to do with trauma as well as what this research is beginning to suggest. And so. By question becomes if that is true for individuals, why isn't that true? For Traditions. And I really think that what has happened. Is that what we have lived in for the last one, hundred years with American protestantism. Is that it has been. A traumatized religious tradition. Broken into two and. More families as a result of the trauma. But the two main families. Have spent the better part last hundred years. shaming and blaming. Across this field of unresolved trauma. And Data has done. UNTOLD DAMAGE ON, American culture. Because of course. The, largest religious tradition through the twenty century was American protestantism. and. And It's it's still is the largest even though it's not as large as it used to be. I think actually think that it's very decline. Is a result of this unresolved trauma. It's a very interesting way to think about institutions and the the ways in which they. Develop and the way in which they respond to one another in the the ways in which they dialogue at means. So much of this. You know there's This sort of stuff is endlessly complex in a lot of more talking about hasn't touched on. Things related to America's original sin of slavery and racism and how that factors. To all of us. This is definitely not. How I, how I thought are sort of conversation would go and developing sort of sympathy for the fun for. Amongst fundamentalists and and all those things but it's it's appreciated. Because it's such a fascinating way to think about these institutions and the ways in which we exist in them because I mean it connects. There's a lot of disconnects in American society. There's so many one of them being you know generational and so sometimes it's hard for someone who's a millennial or younger to relate to. Someone who is a boomer older and conceptualize their experiences but when you say that When you put it within the scope of history and say this d sort of initial traumas from over a hundred years ago are still playing out in our like they were playing out in the lives of the silent generation, the greatest generation, the boomers everyone. Up. To now. It's it's fascinating. And and for me. It does it does a lot. As a historian. It gives me a another lens into the larger story and you ask questions about like the you know the Fox News out sort of world in the world of you know like MSNBC in the nation and all those you know we have these different sorts of them. But places to go. Well, in a sense, you know the Fox News World MSNBC ARE. The logical descendants off of. This trauma. You know is that they're the development of. Places where people want to be kept safe. Where they don't Wanna be called Hicks by a bunch of elitist and where they don't Wanna be called heretics by a bunch of southern IAGO's you know, and that's the way the story has been. Imprinted on us all. And now instead of just working itself out in your local southern Baptist Church in your local unitarian universalist congregation which is the some of the main places of public discourse of earlier generations. What used to be a distinctly religious trauma has moved into a far more secular space. and has had chewed impacts on our media on our educational systems and on our political. But I, really do think that it has to go back to at least in part this unresolved. Trauma from the early decades of the early twentieth century. So it helps us understand those big questions that I don't know but I don't know about you all you how like know how old you are Hella? Thirty six. Okay and I'm sixty, one and. What it does I think in an interesting way of for both of us sitting in very different generational sort of places. Is I always wonder to myself? Why did I? Why did I ever join a fundamentalist church of my own free will? I mean I wasn't born into join. Good. Because I was at one point, my life looking for order. And clarity. Especially, if you're a teenager in the nineteen seventies and today's also the anniversary of Kent State which happened when I was eleven years old. And you know when you are an eleven year old and we watch. We all watch the same television. We have three channels. We watched also save thirty channels and that news came on at night. That's the first news story I remember in its fullness watching people who were in authority. Shoot. Down students who were not that much older than me. And my Ho- SORTA teenager up the nineteen seventies than we're set into this question about chaos and fear, and my my one of my first ones is columbine. Which? Yeah. Oh. Gosh. Yes I was home I had an appendectomy and so there was the first live news event I remember watching unfold. In that way as an adolescent as like I think a sophomore in high school at the time. Both shootings both? Yeah Yeah and you know so so then. As my own journey unfolded, I chose to become an evangelical because it felt safe whereas my own tradition I grew up in a more liberal methodist. Church. Talked glowingly about things like ambiguity and questions. And you know I love that now. But when you're eleven and you've seen Kent State on your television. It's like, no, I don't want questions. You know what order somebody made me say And so so. So my experience helps me understand why I went. Towards sentimentalism and it helps me understand that in a very sympathetic way. But then you know when I when I got out of it. I carry with me for many years afterwards. A sense of guilt and maybe even internalized. Shame. That I had surrendered my own intellect and my own power. To this religious group that. That ask me for it really demanded it from rain, but I did it willingly. Victims. Stockholm. Who Syndrome. And and so I felt terrible about that. And yet, it really wasn't. I got to this point where I started thinking about trauma and shame and blame and how this whole big history unfolded and how that being history interacted with my own small history. That I could let myself off the hook. Yeah when you're sharing reminds me of an axiom from Mush McClellan he would always use the term electric man. And he says electric man lives medically in all at once. meaning that when our media as it's been ever since the dawn of TV. Has Been. So instantaneous and it's only accelerated now like with twitter like there's a cultural event ever cultural event every re two hours right the way in which we respond to that as you said, big history and small history. It does make you pushy towards things that can help you make sense of the universe. For sure and for a lot of people that that does happen by gravitating towards conservative or fundamentalist traditions. Right. And so what are the things that I asked my end? It doesn't necessarily have to be fundamentalism right now in the strictest sense of fundamentalism as we knew it, nineteen, twenty five is the you actually said the very thing that was the most important that the epigenetics conversation can point us towards is that even after the originating impulses on the mutation of the DNA remains and so you might not necessarily be triggered ever. Again you know, say you your grandparents or great grandparents, windows people live in one, thousand, nine, hundred, and five. You could be a person who had never be triggered by evolution, but you could be triggered by something else. To move towards authoritarianism. Profound need for order or the need to blame or scapegoats in one else because you feel like they've infringed on the boundary that you think is the most important thing. So see it doesn't have to be evolution. It doesn't have to be German higher criticism that triggers you the gene mutation is there. And what could trigger? You could be any other kind of event that makes you feel unsafe or makes you feel less bad or makes you feel like some elite person is looking down at you rain? Yeah. And and until it could be. Anything, it can be almost anything and that's why that's why than gene has to be fixed. You know. So because it just shows its head and I do think it shows his head almost hourly on twitter. Yes it does yes. Oh my goodness. For sure. It's not a shame and blame culture I mean twitter itself is like the shame and blame machine. And, it to me I've actually made personal commitments. It's very hard. Because twitter creates a culture where that shame and blame thing is valorize and I I have certainly fallen into it at times man as soon as I do it either try to take down tweets that I have this, you know misfired or. On ktar apologize the people different things like that but I really have committed myself. Is like how do I live outside? Of this kind of. Traumatized culture. That has created these pathways of shame scapegoating over the last hundred years, right? Yeah and it's very hard because as you said, it's it's gamified on twitter like it's all about visible. Quantified reactions and in re tweets and likes and replies, and all those things And A it hits all sorts of receptors in your brain dopamine and otherwise. in in wanting to. Respond and defend and lash. Out A it's. Not always the best place traumatized person. Right I've really been fascinated by the the sort of turn that this conversation had I didn't expect to be talking about trauma within the context of institutions especially over over the course of one hundred years, but it's been. Very, enlightening in that regard, I do want to bring things back to us sort of the present moment that we're living in. There were some things about the development of the religious rights and that I think we could save for maybe another conversation another time, but we are living in this moment of there being a world. Pandemic and an frankly a field response from our federal government to address this before it became a pandemic and one of the results of that is that we are seeing color worse sort of being waged by people that that are Christian nationalists and types of conservatives you know we can throw around a Lotta different labels and pick them if we want that sorely fine. But one of the things that a lot of people that might be familiar with type of culture wars that have been waged between fundamentalists and broader culture especially as the way they see. The way fundamentalists into frame is fundamentalism secularism and the broader culture. Now, we actually have this instance. where? The Public Health Of. Our country as being threatened by. People that insist on churches meeting meeting in person. Pushing for reopening because capitalism is God's chosen. A way in which to spread wealth like and there's there's all sorts of arguments out there. But what is your your read on the way that is being presented by those more conservative groups in the way in which they frame their arguments as well as the ways in which you may have seen Other religious groups and feel free to not use the way I'm doing conservative and liberal use your analogy as you like. But other. Easily called progressive denominations. And denominations of all sorts, and religions of all sorts, using technologies and other things to continue to make community I know that that's that's a two part question with a lot of preface. But I I wanted to sort of contextualized the question a bit and just say how how, what's your read on on both? Reactions. To this particular moment in history that we're living. Well it your question is huge. And might easiest answer is I think that? the religious traditions. Are. Like What I call the brand label religious traditions. Rather than saying conservative or liberal brand label sorts of tradition so that the methodist and the Presbyterian in the eastern Orthodox and the Catholics. And in and? The ones that have the familiar old fashioned signs buildings. they have I think generally, you know take in the science you know pretty seriously and even when they didn't want to. Shut. Most of them have shocked their churches and most of those denominations are not holding. Services and have not been for the last two months including through. Easter witches. was very hard. Of warn them and so I think that on that side of the coin, you have an enormous amount of what would I call fear sadness and grief. you know, and so the fear is when. Will anybody come back after we've been close so long because a lot of those churches are in decline. and then the. You know the sadnesses missing one another you know missing familiar patterns, missing their friends and churches missing their their rituals and their rights and you know a lot of them frankly Had Go to online. Kinds of. Services and that's not been easy for them because these are for by March in the churches that have been most resistant to the technological revolution. That's all around us. So that's been very hard. And then grief I you know. They, they believe the science, they believe the numbers and they're seeing the deaths you know because a lot of these religious traditions are full of people who are older. And you know they're they're watching the the memorial services stack up that they're going to have to have. After you know they can safely reopen again and they're also not able to do the kind of ministry. They normally would do because we're not supposed to touch one another and that that's just huge. So I think on that side of the score, you know you do have a sense. You have responses and reactions that are full of all those three things. fear sadness grief. On the other hand. I think you know Evan Drellich. The the the the very sort of radical. And Conservative evangelicals at lived inside of a world that doesn't believe science by large for a long time so that they were pretty skeptical With. That all this was happening not all of them, but some, but many of them, and so I think they were much slower. You know to close down their churches and then they pulled off of this history of persecution that they have. and. So the ideas that liberal cultures and elites have wanted to persecute them and so this using the pandemic as an excuse to close their churches down, it becomes a a sort of heightened sense of paranoia. It's again the replaying nine hundred and twenty-five someplace in their minds. Know, we don't stand up for the truth if we don't resist the secular hordes, they're going to permanently take away our religious freedom or they're gonNA, close us down forever and so they pulled off of those persecution complexes that have been part. Of that chain culture for a long time. but then I think you know obviously. Those traditions also have a very high view of. The miraculous. And it's often tied to their views of the end of the world. and. So you know there's this idea that. The faithful will be protected from the. The, the the virus remnant. And so. You. Know you can have a service and God will gobble take care of you because God is with you and you know what we've seen from that of course is we've seen pastors die. Who have done that and it's really sad. I so that high. Sense of. God's. Providential Care, which is always true. God does care for all of us in. God does take care of of humankind has God loves humankind but God does not do that to the expense of using common sense you know. But but in Evangelical Pentecostal universe It's all gotten no commonsense, and so that's been problematic and then that gets tied into their ideas about the end of the world. Is that this is God's judgement against sin or this God ushering in the last days or what have you but there's a lot of that out there as well. So I, think that those are kind of the. The. FRAYN's. In which the two larger sorts of religious bodies in the United, states are existing at sort of larger more. Traditional mainstream brand name whatever you WANNA, call it. Group. At his taken science seriously. But still afraid still very sad. you know in school of full of real real grief. and then The. More. The. The heirs of the fundamentalist movement and Pentecostals who? Have elevated the miraculous. Who See this as God's divine intervention bringing about God's plan for the end times. And Who? See his? Persecution. Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard to see the the the human cost on both sides just because that's the all the grief were all having the whole right now. Yeah in this moment. So yeah, and I think that that actually is one thing that. We? Might. As as we are able. To Re enter into space with one another. is that on both sides of that ledger, there has been. The loss of life. And the and the loss of things we up. And in that sense of loss tennis. Maybe who knows maybe there can be some new paths. Of Finding. Healing for what has been broken for a long time. Well I. Really appreciate the way in which you've contextualized things again, and it didn't occur to me to really think of these things within the frame of trauma that has declined the way I approach. Things in the other podcast I do. And because it's it's more about people's lives and their their rules in this their individual roles. But I'm very thankful for the way when she you've. Positive this this idea of of trauma playing out amongst institutions and throughout history. and has given me a lot to think about. Where can people find your your writing and wherever wherever else you might be on my? well, I have a website. Diana Butler Bass Dot Com. People can follow me on twitter at Diana Butler Bass I'm I have a public facebook page I don't use that as much as I used to, but it's there under my name Diana Butler Bass as well and my books. I just finished my eleventh book. It's not for sale, yet it will be out sometime early next year I've written a book on Jesus which is kind of fun and surprise to many people who know me you're probably GonNa talk about that in a book. So so I'm really looking forward to that coming out but you know my other things on history in social change in spirituality. Any Bookstore Barnes and Noble Amazon all your local independent bookstores. Can. Get all of my books and. Help people will. Be Interested in hearing some of the words that I couldn't to the world, but we tried to heal. And and always try to make the connection between our individual lives in the the history that we make. Simply by being alive together in this moment. So are individualized matter. they become the stuff of history even if we ourselves don't become famous name. Together. We're making it. That's right. I. Totally. Agree. Dina, thank you so much for for taking the time to talk to me today It's been a pleasure Blake and I'm glad congratulations on this new podcasting i. hope it does really well, thank you I appreciate that. Thank you very much.
Who is TOM WAITS? With Kevin James Doyle EP 602
"Welcome to the Dork Forest Jaclyn miles whenever Boris Shameless confessions about our obsession with sponge laugh and smile. So let's explore the Dork forest and dorm down for awhile. Hi, I'm Jackie kashian and you're listening to the door cost. You've done it. You've chosen wisely the websites Jackie kashian dork Forest the Dark Forest. Jackie kashian has everything right this podcast inks to my other podcast links to my calendar for when stand-up comedy happens again links to the merch if you want a ranger of the Dork Forest T-shirt If you want any of my stand-up merchandising there's a bunch of numerous there. There's the old pins. There's new. There's a new challenge coin. There's a bunch of t-shirts their CDs. There's more DVD and there's some video and there's more the information that you could deal wage. Also, so that's on the that's on Jackie kashian and there's a link on of course dork forest.com to the merch page. The other thing you could do is you go to iTunes and review the show. That's always something that's supposed to help. Hi, you might be listening to the show on Pandora or Spotify or Amazon or Stitcher or some other place where you might be just listening to it at dork Forest, which will also have the videos as long as we're in covid-19 as we're in quarantine. I am doing Zoom. I'm doing this show as also a video show so you can go to the YouTube page and get a bunch of that that also has a bunch of my stand-up Clips on it as well. Let's do the credits. Hey, Mike, Rick Bourke wrote and composed that song that you just heard and he sang it with his wife Sarah. He will sing at the end of the program his words to The Mexican Hat Dance. 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I will use it in this case enormously wisely on things like shelter and food until I'm on the road again, and then and I appreciate whatever you could send if you want to make monthly if you do monthly things you can make the PayPal thing monthly. You can also if you don't like PayPal you could pay me by venmo my venmo is just my name Jackie - keishin and then a picture of me back wind swept, I believe other than that. Yeah. Oh bandcamp you if you run out of episodes to watch and would like more there are live episodes on bandwidth Dark Forest. Bandcamp.com and there's a bunch of em, there's two hundred episodes before I started pre-recording the best Seventeen of the horrible audio that they were dead. Are on bandcamp so you could listen to those for free. There's a bunch of live ones that are like two bucks a piece cuz they cost me some money to produce. So I charge you a couple of bucks. There's also a storytelling album if you like that so, let's get into the show. Hi. I'm Jackie. Kashian. I'm in my garage again. And this time with the New York Comic that I don't know but I'm excited to meet you Kevin James Doyle. Welcome to the dark Forest. Hi, Jackie happy to be here. Thanks for having excellent. Sure. It's now the Dark Forest is that here's the thing about Kevin James Charles. You should know that he has a new album out and it's called Thirty Year Old Virgin so much check that out and you have your own podcast, which is the Bradshaw boys. Yes, where you discuss Sex and the City? Yes. We were three guys who are watching Sex in the City for the first time ever so often and it better you than me my friend. Yeah. It's been quite a journey how many episodes how many episodes of of the show like how many what are there there are dead. The season finale is split into the series finale of split into two episodes and those are our next two episodes. So by the time this interview comes out cruising. Oh, yeah. Yeah, by the time this comes out. We will have finished the entire series and we how we've had on almost most of the cast we've out on Sarah Jessica Parker and Kristin Davis cuz you live in New York. You get to have people exactly. Gilmore Girls Next. What are you guys going to do next know? You know, we're going to I think we're going to like do some shows we're going to do not entire series but I think we're going to do like we're going to dip in two different ones off. You should do Deadwood. Oh, I loved you ever see dead. Oh, yeah. Already. Okay, we want to do some girls because it's you know, and then we're going to do some other shows but we're also. Love sex and City so much we're going to go back and re-watch and try and get our listeners involved a little more because nice. Yeah, so there's you know, we're we're just going to start it over from scratch like most people do a dog. Every show I wrote a review of Sex In The City the second movie that I saw and I insist that I saw it by accident and becomes you know, how there's always that thing you can relate to one of the characters and it turns out in Sex in the City to the character. I most relate to is the Arab guy that tries to get Samantha arrested for getting someone fellatio in a public restaurant like yeah put him I'm on his site. That's the character. I identify anyway, so not a huge fan of sharia law, but that just seems kind of decency. I'm not I'm not saying anything. Did you see the movies? Have you seen the movie? We're going to do the movies and I've heard that Sex in the City too is among one of the worst movies ever made. So never made ever ever ever and not enough funny way. Yeah bit of a Pity that I don't know if you ever saw overboard, but that is a terrible movie that I thoroughly love. Yes, I am. Goldie Hawn and so many people are messaging us being like hey already pre Apollo advising as fans being like don't be too hard on Sex in the City to just just stop it. Like people people like collectively across the world or like we know we apologize. Right? Right. We'd like to show the show was great and then and the show did have some a lot of potential to do some good stuff in the beginning right and then not that we're here to Talk About Sex in the City you guys go to the Bradshaw boys. And here you all your Sex in the City needs will be fulfilled. Yep. I promise you Kevin James Doyle and if you go at Kevin James Doyle on Twitter and Instagram and all the things you'll be able to follow on all that and the new album is called Thirty Year Old Virgin birth and we'll leave that as a mystery because this makes me laugh because you wanted to talk about music and Rangers of the dark for us know that I don't know anything enough about any job. Kind of music. So you you want this is you going to have to start at the beginning because you picked somebody that I've I have one Christmas song that I've heard of this guy. Okay Christmas card from a hooker and yeah, okay. That's the one the Minneapolis one. Yes. Yes. That's why I've heard it. Is he still alive Tom Waits? Okay still here. This is such a great, you know, like an hour hour before I was just like what if I forget everything that has ever been happened, you know, like you think and now I'm just so excited to share this person with you. So I woke up I was in I was playing video games when I was like fourteen. I was playing like Madden open 1998 or something and then good for you for playing it not as a full measure go and that's I when I turned it off Letterman was on it was late and there was just a Cookie Monster guy like screaming into a microphone and I just remember off. Pre-internet I saw that and then they went to Commercial and I never got the person's name and it wasn't too like five years later that I heard the voice again, and I found out it was Tom Waits. So I took the local record store and just like literally the World opened up to me cuz he has had so many albums up at that point. So his career I'll start with his like thoughts without me or talking about which is like he was kind of like a lounge singer and he was kind of just like kind of like weird Tom Tom Waits of the gravel voice was a lounge singer kind of like drunk and Lounge singer thing that just like, okay how you doing bought like like The Pogues like The Pogues. Yeah. I don't know it would be like, that's more pub music. Maybe. Yeah. It was just like drunk and piano ballads and he's off and he has like the best origin story ever because he got pretty popular at that point. Like he had a few songs that were many hits and Bruce Springsteen covered one of his songs and then he's dead. Hammered all the time. He's you know doing drugs pretty strung out. Then he meets this woman his wife Kathleen Brennan on the set of Francis Ford Coppola movie that he was doing music and she was doing some rewrites for its called one from the heart. Okay? And okay. She basically is like they fall deeply in love. They get married. She gets him sober and his music went fucking Bonkers after that like he got sober and then his music just turned into the most insane unusual stuff ever. So I just loved it like he got sober and fell in love and became a family man and then his art went off the cliff of into crazy town and it's like the coolest his music gets cheered after that. So then it kind of put the piano away and started like literally like playing with like trash in a room and beatboxing and crazy crazy stuff. So, Oh, wow. Okay. So well, you told me that fascinating story. I Googled two things. Yeah, one one from the heart was a movie that came out in 1981, and he was already very successful if he's writing the soundtrack to a film. Yes, right? Yes. So he must have been around before 1981 doing music. Yes. So okay folks closing time was probably nineteen seventy-five and that's kind of that's his first album and it's like I think Capitol Records and it's like him like pretty poppy music poppy. I'm poppy. I'm poppy by his standards like used to listen to it when you look on Spotify. It's still his first single from his first album that is still his most listened to song and it's called it's just like well, I hope that I don't fall in love with you like it's got like it's like kind of hipper Jim Croce. Not that okay. Yep. Like normal sounding pop music like right. We're just sort of a ballot. Yes ballot stuff. Okay. All right, and now and in 1980, he was thirty years old with the thing that we know. Yeah, because he is 70 years old at this time. According to Wikipedia. I don't know if you do this, but whenever I whenever I compare ages of what people did at what time like it I always am really I'm like, what am I successful as Tom Waits at thirty obviously not but like find out like wow that's going to beat you up forever. I know doing that cuz I don't think you're much older than that right off. Is it your album called Thirty Year Old Virgin? Yeah and exactly. That's hilarious. Yeah. No. Yeah. I do recommend that especially since he was such a month when he was twenty-five. Yeah. So yeah his so his career a lot like some of his most successful songs now are from that pre era like when when you look at numbers When you look at strict numbers, it's like he has a song called. The piano has been drinking that's like still pretty popular and he has a lot of like, you know, kind of like just those Anthems for young men kind of thing like Hunter S Thompson totally Foster Wallace. I'm going to be an emo dude over in the corner, but I'm also incredibly, you know artistic and I but I'm also hammered and drugged-up. Yes. So very like I think he dug into being like, you know what it is to be a if I play piano like I have to be down or else is it even art? Right? Right, right. It's a it's everyone falling in love with their like well, maybe if I got drunk I could or if I did drugs I might be this amazing, but then you just said in nineteen nineteen eighty one or so, he sobers up and his career changes diametrically or yes. So he comes out with this album called swordfishtrombones off. Which which I still like his older albums before that, but like I don't but swordfishtrombones is like people were so confused. They were like, what is this? There was still some bad stuff going on but like weird, you know more marimba a marimba the yeah. He's like marimba on there and there's like really weird percussion thing and then most of all before a lot of that he would sing like, I don't know it's saying kind of like this like, oh you do and then his voice like literally become Cookie Monster X 10 like he starts doing insane stuff with his voice that is just like that. It sounds like like it turns off. So many people you're either like Thursday at that point where you're not in like the next thirty years like he does. He doesn't do any favors for people that need a pretty voice. He's like, okay and so you have this is so long. Isn't his voice the one that he's singing. Sometimes he has like even talks about it at length in some interviews, but he's like I thought I had one voice but he's like I I think my voice is just like you can play a song fifty different ways. He's like every single song that I have calls for a different voice. Okay. And so there's like beautiful little songs that he has to get a quote where he says he writes Grand weepers sad songs and Grim Reaper. Yeah, so we had songs. Okay, he has songs that are called liked misery's the river of the world off and then he has like a song that's called like you can never hold back spring and they're like these like beautiful little songs. These other ones like a cool version of Harry Chapin. Absolutely. I don't know if you've ever heard any yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's like a cool. I don't know. Yeah. I used to love Harry Chapin when I was in college back in the 12th century birth. And and it was and it was sort of that. He had this song Harry Chapin a song about a baby dying a newborn and then he also had this talk about, you know, make sure you still you doing it your keep going actually actually, I think he only had that's actually not true. I don't think he had a spring song. I can't remember cuz I can only phone number taxi and Cats in the Cradle and Cats in the Cradle one of those songs that yeah, like you're just like humming along and then you listen to the lyrics and you're just like, oh my gosh, it's just so tragic. Yeah, it's tragic and you're just like dude. Just call your dad exactly. I mean, it's he did the best he could he's probably at any at yeah, you just gotta forgive get a coffee. Yeah song gets you just yeah, so that's kind of so swordfish will like what are the I wonder what the so in nineteen eighty-three. He releases this swordfish of trombone. Yes and Thursday. Is kind of he he got a new record label. He left his record label so he could have complete artistic and also his wife actually from this point on he took it's every single song that he writes with his wife. He's everything's KO credited. So from the second he met his wife everything is written by Tom Waits and Kathleen Brennan and okay, he he has long quotes about he says like people like what's your process and he's like, I wash I wash the dishes and she drives him like he basically like he found finds this artistic soul, mate, and he said he has another beautiful quote where he says like, even if she didn't work on the song with me she inspired it and so she is part of every part of this process and Swordfishtrombones is the first version of that that's their first collaboration. That's his first time on this new label and he kind of finds his footing and then his probably like artistic Masterpiece the album that came out after that which is called. Okay Rain Dogs, Rain Dogs, yes, okay, and by this point I was born this is when I was when I found out this is the year. I was born. I was like I'd like kind of attached myself to that album. I was like this means something and I love them. I love your great. You're just like no man. It's gotta be about me. I don't think you get it. Yeah, I mean cuz it's it's like what it's what we all do but yours is she comes from such a sweet Place really know this must mean something right? I mean, I'm right here. Yeah, and it's awesome. So yeah, if I bring dogs is a good yes, it is like wage is like the least in the only thing cohesive about the album is is like him because it is like the weirdest sounds like every song is a new weird Adventure. It's about crazy characters about like weird dark seedy things and then just the weirdest noises. He started working with this one guitarist. Name Mark Rebo and like he does all these like weird sounds with the guitar and they have weird instruments and it sounds like okay. It sounds like he's in like a junkyard banging on things in ground. And then you also could like tear up at like a lyric. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's what I kind of. I mean, that's what I've I know that the one song that I know which is like Christmas song the lyrics are beautiful. Yes, just he seems incredibly poetic and and really it's just yeah. Well, there's something so like masculine and like intense about his energy cuz he's very like like if anyone hasn't heard his music, which a lot of people haven't but it's like he's he sounds like he's like every time ago like and so there'll be a song like that and then he'll have he has a lyric called No One puts no one puts flowers on the flowers grave and it's just like you're just like, how does this how does he just like is so in touch with like his emotions and then also just like you just don't hear that coming out of that voice. Right that voice and those words. I mean if you think about it some of the most McGruff the crime dog, dudes, you know are like, oh here's here's a flower exactly. And so I mean, it's just like being that tough you could sort of lap yourself. Yeah and and and and be okay with with the emotion because he's 70. I mean, it's not it's not like it was encouraged in, you know back in nineteen sixty five to be a ten year old with aware of your own, you know emotions. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, totally I think like and and I do think there's something wrong. That's cool that getting rid of the dumb destroying your life poetry that it's like, you know, you don't need to be you don't need to destroy yourself to be interesting, you know, like you don't have to say you you can actually have a stable marriage and you can sing super weird and you don't need to you can remember last night that has nothing to do with whether your music off. Is good, right? It's one of the great fears and one of the great myths, you know, the Hemingway kind of Hunter S Thompson totally where there has to be mental unbalance. There has to be drug and alcohol issues. There has to be all of this, you know violence or some damn thing. You have to be broken in some way to create this art. Yeah, and even I think I love I'm a big Beatles fan, but everybody loves to and it's just cuz they're more popular but everyone loves to be like this is when they did acid. This is like when you can hear like they started smoking weed on like during these albums and you can hear that with a lot of suggest music and yeah, I think they're still like there's like a weird everyone gets so thrilled about like then they did drugs then they went nuts then and same with like lots of things and this is the place for me. It was super influential and like I don't get into drugs and stuff, but just to hear like an artistic. Opposite story of that that it's like this dude literally became the most vanilla life and his art went went insane off the rails. So great. Yeah and well, it's it's such a great fears of any, you know, I mean, I think about Hedberg, you know menu Hedberg and and how great he could have been if he had sobered up if he if he had gotten clean and home, you know, and that's true but it's the great fears that you're going to lose this weird artistic Edge when in in reality. No, it turns out your your work ethic goes up quite a bit with your not hungover long time. Yeah, and you can get some shit done. So at the end of your end, if you're not dead like it bums me out whenever people die and you're just like even even Prince and Tom Petty. I don't think people prop since they were already like at towards the end of their career. They didn't totally like Society. It doesn't seems like totally reckoned with the fact that it's Louis. They died of drug overdoses. Like we should have right five more albums from Tom Petty and five more albums from Prince and they they weren't twenty-five so it doesn't feel tragic but it's like no they died of drug overdoses. And that sucks. Well, yeah Prince should be around right now, you know, so and and so but so Tom Waits is a nice way to die in his bed with a shoes off surrounded by loved ones. It's going to be great. Exactly. So, okay. So Rain Dogs is Masterpiece album. If anybody out there wants to get into Tom Waits you start with the early stuff. That is like that's that's your light drugs. And then once you do rain dogs, that's your hardcore art drugs for Tom Waits. Okay, that's the pure stuff and then one cool thing about that was I bought Rain Dogs cuz that's what I told me. They're like You Gotta Buy this album and I listen to it at home. Gave it to my friend. I was like this sucks. This is the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. And this is after I was already a fan of his earlier stuff. You were right. I went to Circuit City e r i p and I got I got rain. Speaking of losing at all cuz of drugs about getting Circuit City man, come on and BestBuy, they they actually you know them around they were nice. They Best Buy was a spy was the one he was the he was the one at Circuit City tried this look at this. Look at this adapter. Yeah. Anyway, a rip-off. Neither of them were ever as bad as Radio Shack that that was the they which holds on which holds both Best Buy and RadioShack are like by the skin of their teeth are molded on hilarious. So I got that album and I was just I listened to it once and I was like, what is like brain couldn't compute I give it to my friend and and then he had a dead. About six months later. He gave it back to me and he's like, I don't want to either I'm going to throw it away. I was like, well don't throw it away. He gave back to me after six months. I gave it another shot. Probably out of some like I know I'm supposed to like this cuz cool people said I should write and it totally clicked. Like I fell I fell in love. I like I totally understood it off. I totally was wasn't bothered by The Voice anymore cuz it is like really aggressive. Like I can't play him around my mom or else she was like why I just don't get it. Why why it's yeah, it's just awful. Is it just loud and a lot of cheesy as it or is it drum? Is it percussion? It's it's mostly just his voice. It's like, okay, it's everything about it is is weird. I asked if he was just singing over top in a normal way but like he's just barking like a dog or he's like even a ballad. He's like everybody else. And like it is very just like you're concerned for him. You're like are like stop smoking and he's like I did right? Okay. Do you need some T? Yeah, say you have like, did you listen to it start to finish? Did you just go like it like you like Paul told to listen to albums. Yes, and I still am kind of addicted to to that like it's still hard for me to not listening rooms all the way through but I specifically remember starting it going to the end and listening to it all the way through three times. Okay, so just sitting in my room three times in a row just yeah World opening up before my eyes, you know, like as like, this is 1985. So like he's still is he still writing and producing music? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So he his like since then then he came out with an album that was even weirder that wanted a Grammy in more people and then Keith Richards found out about him. Who's the Rolling Stones guitarist dead? And yeah, Keith Richards is like a huge fan Keith Richards is like what so he he's the type of guy that has like famous people people more successful than him are like, oh you are the guy, you know, so right he probably has ten or fifteen albums since Rain Dogs. Okay, 10:15. Well, that makes sense. 85. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's been it's been thirty-five years so he could do so that's an album. Yeah means that's a lot of albums his his last is not his last name is last album before like two albums ago. He never played piano and it was almost like I would say that this was like the full the climax of his like weird origin like he gave up playing piano at all. Like this is the first time he didn't have that and he started beatboxing. His son got into rap music and okay, he started playing rap music and and and Tom Waits is like whoa, this is this is crazy. And so he beatboxed on like half the album And I know it's like it's not him being like my name's Tom Waits. And what's up? Like it's a version but one thing that I thought is course spoken word. I bet it's it's like I like him being like a boom boom, Boom. And okay and and so when he found out about sampling, I feel like this is kind of kind of his like wage goes into a psyche when he found out about sampling. He was like, no he's like you can't sample it. He's like because then it's the same noise for 5 minutes. So he's like it's like five seconds and then repeated. So all the songs that he beat box on he does. He does the full beatbox for like six minutes and he's like, he's kind of obsessed with like the human like flaws and errors. He's like, I don't want every beat to sound the same. Like, I want me to my voice to get tired and I want every boom boom chick to feel different throughout the whole song. And what's funny is like? Okay. It's just him being obsessed with it's it's funny when you hear it that it's like his son listen to rap music and then as a dad I begged son was just like Dad. Oh my gosh, what a dork, you know, this is what he took away from listening to cool rap music is like beatboxing is a garage. You're you're ruining it dead, but that's not that's a I got to go buy pants that are too big for me. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, oh my God, that's so funny. Yeah, and he hasn't done any that he hasn't released anything for about ten years now and I have a friend who is friends with his son on Facebook and told me okay that sometimes in their Facebook feed they'll just have took a picture of like a family picture at the beach and the back is just like Tom Waits in the back. So I was like, that's the only piece of like what he's been up to that I've heard for like ten years that like, I'm like, all right, I guess he's just hanging out with his family dead. So not playing just kind of literally literally living his life. Yeah, the last kind of interesting the the very last concert that he played in the United States. I was at and he's okay. He's only played probably about a hundred shows in the past like twenty twenty-five years. He just does not play live that often change. And when did you when did you first see him? I first saw him on in 2006 and okay. I saw him in Chicago. I got tickets moved out to Chicago to see him. I lived in Columbus. We're from Columbus. Oh my gosh. Oh, that's not as bad. It's not. Yeah, so then and it was it was great. It was awesome and anytime wage fan is just like you saw him cuz like know very few people have seen him cuz he plays very okay and it doesn't what kind of event does he play Auditorium zor stadiums or does he do it like that or he place? Really old beautiful theaters, you know, so it'll be like a 2000 to see like I saw him at the Chicago Theater which is like three three thousand seats. And yeah, just one of those old Fox Theater. Yeah. Yeah, so I saw him a few years later in Columbus and I was like, this is like in he came to my hometown. I got one ticket off and then my dad got another ticket cuz they sold out and like Ticketmaster like you pressed a button and then we're in a queue and then 30 minutes later. They're like you can get one seat in the back of whatever so After the show I was like on cloud nine and I talked to someone at the show cuz I bought tickets like the day they came out. I talked to someone at the show that there was like an extra release of tickets and Thursday. I Got My Ticket like two weeks ago. So I went home on Ticketmaster and I woke up the next morning. I was like I'll see and there was tickets in Atlanta for like 5 days from then I got online. I just put to Jake and I pressed enter and that Saturday like five days later to second row tickets came up and what I flipped out people offered me my tickets in Columbus $1,200 cash. They were just like bright like I could have sold both of those tickets for $3,000 a piece probably like yeah. Yeah something crazy. Yeah, so I bought them and then my dad came home and I was like we have to go to Atlanta on Saturday and he was like why and it's like I got Tom Waits tickets and he's like what so that's cool. Yeah, so we hopped in and then home So is the best I quit seeing concerts for probably five years after that like ruined live. I was just like it was the greatest thing. I'd ever seen. He's very funny performer kind of like half thirty minutes of the show. He just like tells weird made-up funny stories. So he has like a okay. He has like a weird cool. Yeah, like if you look at his old Letterman appearances home. It's like he's kind of like a comic, you know, like he's doing jokes and doing weird like doing funny panel things and like riffing with David Letterman. So he has like this. Yeah performer Vibe of like and he has like weird one liners and stuff. Um, and and and yeah, I saw that and then NPR released that concert like a few months later. They were like, here's a live audio of this show that Tom Waits did in Atlanta. So I have like NPR release this like 2 and 1/2 hour show that I was at in like perfect audio so I get to like rebirth Occasionally which is which is fun and and that was like 2009. Yeah, that was that was 2008. It was a month before I moved to New York City. It was July of 2008. Okay, and then back to New York like a month later? Okay, so Wow, so you're okay. Have you have you seen him since that's the last show he's played in the United States. So he hasn't played a singer show. He hasn't played a single concert, but you've seen him three times and I've seen like 60 year old dudes with Tom Waits shirts on and I'm like, did you ever see into like no, it's my dream and I was like if I tell my seen him three times, they're just like they're like don't want to talk to me anymore. I hate you. It's why? Yeah, but it's almost like you kind of just want to say you're right to want to see him. Yes, because it is really cool. Yeah, but it feels like you're sort of rubbing in there. I you know, I don't want to I don't want to be a dick but I just want to tell you that you're right. It's a really cool show. So yeah, and also I have like kind of I get kind of like a bone to pick with people that don't seem live stuff because all I've done is gotten on Ticketmaster and pressed enter and I can understand like not but it's like if you if you have some amount unless it's like cost-prohibitive. It's sort of like with any live things. I'm like whenever people like you should you gotta go great great. You gotta go and it's interesting because It's almost like like if yes, like I wanted to see Hamilton but it was cost prohibitive. Yeah, I couldn't I couldn't do it and so it took a couple of years and then I saw it when I saw it again and I was very pleased but the but I don't but it would be weird if I were to be mad that someone saw a show of something that I was unwilling to put the effort. In fact, yeah, like I'm not a big live music person. Yeah. I find I like listening to music on CDs and you know, I just like to listen to music. I don't I don't necessarily do need the to have my hearing destroyed. But do you in the event as I mean, you're alive comedian performer and it's sometimes it feels like pulling teeth like you kind of have to put the work in to get people to come out to to enjoy life things like cuz it is so much easier to sit at home and be like watch TV, but it's like there's not a single tear off. Vision show or movie that I experienced in the way. I have anything like anything live but it's like it's it's I don't know like I I remember that show and a few other times like I go back to that in my brain all the time because I'll never be able to do that. Again. That is it and and I don't know there's just like I could I could yell forever about how important it is to get like, it's great that you wouldn't see Hamilton. I still talk to people that are still just like, oh man, I would love to see that or like how did you get tickets? And it's like well, I mean I bought him. I don't know like yeah, he saved up I bought some tickets. It was weird. Yeah to spend a lot of money on something but I was psyched when I saw it and then when the original cast came out on Disney plus package, I mean now everybody can see it and and they they did an amazing job with it quite honestly, I don't want to think of it and I don't want to make you jealous, but I saw Hamilton the night off. I just did what you're saying. I just was like put it on a credit card. I was like whatever and I went that night with your original cast and that night they came out and bowed and then they were like we just found out Manuel won the Pulitzer. So it was like and everyone like Salva started cheering and was like, you know, and then a tickets were probably four hundred bucks, which was like, you know pretty tough but next day tickets from then on for like a year. We're cheapest ones you can get were like eight hundred and I was like, right it was it was eight hundred twelve hundred dollars plus a flight to New York in a hotel so I couldn't do it. Yeah and then but I have to say that I I saw it and it was but I have friends who saw it at the public before she went to Broadway and sought multiple times at the public multiple times on Broadway before it blew up and then and then with with each of the new cast and then I saw it with the LA cast and then I went and I saw it with the dog. New York cast okay and so those are the two times I've seen that and that's kind of amazing but so but I'm looking at what I'm looking at here first off what I usually do with musical episode. Yep, like to ask people to do like a Spotify list of like eight songs hundred percent hundred percent hundred percent. Okay, cuz if you're willing to do that and then send me a link to that I'll listen to it. I absolutely it might be a nice Arc of yes. This is this is it's just a taste of what I'm missing by not having listened to a lot of Tom Waits. I did I did think about that. I was like I was like, oh man, it's tough to talk about me, but I was like, this is the this is maybe I can turn on one person to become a Tom Waits head. But yeah, no, right what school woke playlist like this is like there really is so like every album that he has is is different. He has like a and there's there's just like so many different flavors, so I'll pass. The greatest a song playlist of Tom Waits that just know that my favorite like my favorite sort of sad sack folk song kind of stuff. Yeah is off like I'm willing to listen to heavy metal ballads. You know, those are the ones I like the best the Aimee Mann, you know, sort of acoustic he kind of stuff. I like that. So if you've if you've got, you know, if you've got a an idea there I have a huge you're going to love this. So just recently I think like two weeks ago or maybe a month or so Tom Waits. There's an of women covering Tom Waits just got relation in Ami Ami man was on there. Oh, okay. Amy man's on their singing my favorite song by Tom Waits. And it's like and what's your favorite song by Tom Waits? My favorite song by Tom Waits is called hold on and it's just it's like of all the Poetry like way. He talks a bunch if if you want to be inspired artistically like he has some really beautiful talking about songwriting and how like you don't write a song you just find it and he's like, it's like farming he's like you just water things and sometimes like all this stuff that I think like as a comedian or writer your sort of like it's very inspiring even though I'm not a musician and he has like his most beautiful song of all his weird poetry or songs, of course is just hold on you gotta hold on and like that's it and I hear it and he sings it. I'm like he's so wordy and then that and Aimee Mann singing it. I cry. You're going to cry. So got a cry for sure. Yeah. Amy man is on that album. So is Phoebe Bridgers? Do you know Phoebe Bridgers? I don't I know. You're welcome page. Okay and Patty Griffin Rosanne Cash and so what's what's cool about his his cover albums or anytime people cover him. It's like it's killer to you know, Bob Dylan in that like for the people that can't handle the voice then all of a sudden. It's like I love when people cover Tom Waits cuz I'm like I get home by his voice is prohibitive for people. I totally understand like I don't want to force them on anyone if you get it you get it but whenever someone covers the songs and like and they can be like here the the beauty of the songwriting without it sounding like it's like sung by like a monster, you know? Yeah, exactly. So why people like covers is Gabrielle. I mean, that's a real issue with Bob Dylan for me too is that I think that the the the the music is is nice. I I like the sense. I take a stand here Bob Dylan's real good wage. Yeah, anyway, but with me, but the the the music is good, but and the and the lyrics are beautiful but his voice is sometimes prohibitive and I can't understand the words. Yep. He's growling them or he's just kind of bumbling and I'm just like come on man. I know there's you took the time to write the write the song. It's like when Maria Bamford Whispers a punchline like she can get on CA, and this is no there's I think there's something I went to school for musical theater, and and I thought like I really really like a lot of musicals. I love a lot of musicals, but it was interesting. I was getting into Tom Waits and Bob Dylan when I was going to school and their former singing and and I really really have a major I was on some doing some rant with my friend the other day ripping on this very thing, but it's like how wage Want the voices to be so pretty on Broadway and they actually weren't all pretty like they weren't like what's her name? Who's in Sunday in the park with George George Martin The Jerk Bernadette Peters Bernadette Peters. Yo No One listened God. No one must have all me thought we were going to be talking about Bernadette Peters, but we're we're in the forest. But her voice is not traditionally pretty like it is not like there is jarring aspects to her voice and in and I feel like off the thing with Bob Dylan the thing with Tom Waits, like I love that. It's like singing should not be prohibitive if you can hit the note. And it's like how the human voice isn't meant to sound exactly the same like it's the greatest instrument in all of the world. And then you go to school for people to behave like I get it for Opera like you have to learn how to sing opera but for Theatre music your voice should be able to do whatever it calls for and I think a lot of times nowadays people singing very much similar Styles and I love I'm so drawn to the people that have weird voices that like Maria bamford's a great example, obviously like her voice is like a great but she she can make it to ya and she can make it do somersaults kind of fun. Yeah. It's fun to listen to her. So that's cool. I just put that back up to the house women sing Waits on my Christmas list. There you go. You'll be happy to know I'm I'm someone needs to I'm very I'm excited for you. I think I think yeah, that'll be good. He yeah, like that's just a fun. It's cool that the person exists that like sings in weird ways. Like I'm glad there's eighty people that aren't doing it all over the radio. It's just he's like the same like I'm glad there's this one weird person out there doing his thing. That doesn't give a fuck like yeah these yeah and and and it and it's and it's he's doing it. I mean, do you feel like he's doing it for himself and if you like it you like it and he like it's not that he's not reaching toward the audience. It's just he's reaching for a very specific audience who might enjoy what he wants to genuinely do. Yes. Yeah, and I I think that's very inspiring cuz I think it's like it was probably scary thought I would imagine like when he first was like I'm going to change my entire sound like I'm always amazed at those people that are like throw it all away and are like, all right. Let's see who comes home. On this journey with me and then you know, it may not be as many people but they're like True Believers in what you're doing and like I love it, you know and and if you you know and quite honestly, I mean this is a perfect example is stand up and and covid-19 distinct says that if you get to do what you love to do, you've already want yeah, you know, it's it's so I see that life his first album that Closing Time album came out in seventy-three and that he put out an album every year until 1978 and then and then 1980 was heart-attack and Vine a 1983 was swordfishtrombones. Yeah, and then they became every two years and then five years between Frank's wild years back bone machine bone machine is the scariest thing you ever hear bone machines. We really yeah. It's it's like it's him going deep into these like dark song writing places thoughts. Just like that that are just not that that are like, I don't know like he he wrote a concept album about about this like weird German play with this guy murders his whole family and he and then he also wrote a concept album about Alice in Wonderland and so like okay and does so, this is Stone Cold Sober the bonemaster. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly 92. Yeah. He's like, he's like Ivan's over 20 years. Yeah, there there is I think about this is my projection, but I feel like maybe the downside not the downside but it's like all of those albums when he's releasing albums once a year. It's you know, there's a template for what you're writing which is like, you know, I'm writing the songs that like Louis Armstrong wrote only in my voice. It's like the bar piano. It's basically Piano Man like sing us a song You're the piano man. That's a dog. A lot of those songs were like Billy Joel had the radio hit and his were like the weird off-beat versions of that a bunch of versions of those songs and then it's okay. And so when on album comes out every five years at that point, it's probably because it's like you're exploring new sounds and you can't just throw stuff out cuz you're like, I don't know what's working. You know, right the Black Rider. How was how was that law? Remember that album? Yes for the 93 and that is also a musical the Black Rider blow. It's a story. Yes. It is. It's like wage. What is it? It's like a Faustian story and it's about a guy who it's about a guy who wants to like woo his love and so he like trades to get these like certain certain, uh arrows to okay able to impress her with his archery, but then the person that sold him the arrows Put a Spell on them. That they'll they'll kill his love so he shoots it in then he kills his love. Oh good lord, and then the shows up. Here just like I why don't you hitter the foot? Yeah anyway, so it's just a you're like no it's going to be the heart and then of course she dies and this this feels like a long tale of someone who doesn't want to do the work because it feels like hey, I'm sorry. Your Tinder profile is just it's a little aggressive. That's all I'm saying. How about you? How about your tone it down a little what exactly and you go slow go slow you could do it. And so the one after that is mule variations and that one's beautiful. It's much prettier. It has a few weird songs called Filipino box spring hog is one that's really weird. But then there's some really really beautiful like he gets back into some of his piano Vibes on that and that's where okay, that song has bought a favorite song by him. Hold on which is which is you know, well, that's the one when he played that live. It was like, you know when you were at a show, I don't know if you feel this but it's like with comedy you're never like oh my God. And I hope they do my favorite joke. Oh my gosh, he's doing he's doing the joke about um, it's got about buckets or something. Yeah. Yeah exactly and off and but it's cool with the song that I was like if he plays hold on like I think this will be the greatest moment of Life your fingers were crossed. Yeah for those of you not watching on YouTube and you're wrong cuz you can Kevin James Doyle by the way is whom who I'm talking to and it's at Kevin James Doyle. Those are all words that we all know how to spell you can do it at Kevin James Doyle and he'll like no. Yes, people have trouble they put an eye and Doyle know it's a why you guys anyway, so, it's Kevin J James Doyle 30 year old virgin is the name of the comedy album and the Bradshaw boys sex in EM City Podcast is available everywhere that you listen to podcast. So but I interrupted you for some reason to do that little informative. Fun fact I loved Then I love that and I love that I have okay, we have a few minutes left. I want to tell you that can I tell you one cool story about him that I think is is this is a cool story fact that I also I think rep like he doesn't do a lot of interviews. So he's someone that I want to get inside their head and this to me is like very philosophically cool. But basically he has changed legally changed informed Our Lives as artistic people because Frito-Lay hired he has a song called back right up on his early album small change and he was free delay wanted to use that song to sell chips corn chips. Yes, you you were all familiar with some Frito-Lay's corn chips, right? Yes, and yes, and so they went to license the song and he was like, no I I don't work for corn chips. It feels weird birth. Real super weird the yeah, wait to turn down the to turn down the freedom make money. No, no to even have them think that you know, something exact same like we're going to use the Tom Waits going to sell some chips that does that bother you. Yeah, it does. Oh, nevermind. All right, so they got a they got a person that is Louis impersonator of him or just like listen to him. And so they this commercial came out and he was he was in an interview and they went to commercial like on the radio. This is the seventies and they went to see that they went to Commercial and then all of a sudden he heard this this not his voice but like this guy that sounded exactly like and there's like step right up get you Frito-Lay's chips boa and he sued Frito-Lay And it's the very first anyone the case, but it was like a very weird case because he they didn't use his voice. They didn't use this lyrics they only used his likeness wage and and he was like, I'm sure he's softened with time but like it literally created a new form of of like copyright law that has like they used his likeness wage and they showed to the jury and the he even got the guy that was the impersonator. He convinced him by telling him. He was like man, he's like, you stole my likeness. This is like, I don't want to use my music to sell chips. He's a very on pure, you know, artistically beer and that impersonator. Spoke on behalf of Tom Waits in the lawsuit against Frito-Lay and he's like, oh my God. I was like, I was a fan of Tom Waits. Like I shouldn't have done this like, I'm sorry and so he was the fact they created like a portion of of law. Now that is like you can't steal a person's likeness and profit on it. That's kind of help in your Madden in your Madden games for the football people. Yeah, cuz I think that the I think the football guys get their get a taste of the of the games now. Yeah. Yeah because of that good for you Tom Waits. I know I know that's outstanding. I thought I thought that was great cuz I'm like man, this is like, I wonder how many people at a certain point it could be like whatever it's not that big a deal but it's like it's like know my music means more to me than pork chops, and I love freedom and I love Tom Waits, but that's I mean that's the crazy thing is cuz I think there is a Bob Dylan Like car ad that uses one of his songs, or I don't know. Maybe there's a toupee thing blown in the wind. I bought certain I'm just I'm just making things up at this point. But here's the weird thing is I do think that you you know, I know that it's Jim Gaffigan, for example, I don't know that this is true, but it's a great when I saw him. He did an amazing. I think we're all familiar with the fact that Jim Gaffigan would like to talk about food. He has more food comedy bits than I've ever heard in my whole life. Exactly and he's a delight of a human being and he had a long bit about McDonald's and about how much he loves McDonald's at about how people are snobs about McDonald's and they should wrap it up and it's I mean, that's the gist of it. Yeah, and it's got a bunch of punchlines and it's great. So he does this on some televised thing that I think it was a benefit at the end of it. The thing is a squeaky squeaky squeaky squeaky at the very last second last line. It's almost as if he like you could almost I could almost see something flick a switch where it was like God. How did Jesus I put McDonald's is going to want me to do ads for them. And so he alludes to the fact that Ronald McDonald is a pedophile and That's got out of that see that that's so I love that so much because it's like it's like the struggle of like, of course like we all want money like that'd be great to like do a commercial but then there's I love the people that there's a thing of like Rascal Nest. That's like, you know what I don't want to work for McDonald's I want to tell jokes and he you know, well, you know, Maria look at those Target ads for Target for Christmas, I think three seasons and eventually she was like, you know, I don't think people should go to Target but Target was psyched because she the ads were so successful. Yeah, so they saw like a spike in people buying like, why does Target even advertise who who's going somewhere else for their shiny plastic? Yeah. Yeah, but I mean so but I guess she did something that really improved sales. Yeah. Yeah, they're like come on back and she's like Okay, and then so she did like three two or three seasons of this two or three holiday seasons and then she said no and they got someone to Portrait try to do what she did. What did what she had been if you look up the ads cuz they're on YouTube. They're the ads are she plays herself and her and a sister at least two characters two sisters one is wild and crazy and the other one is all buttoned up and spur OCD and it's making a thousand things by hand and they both go to Target and they both love Target for different races and So they split it up to have two actors do that. But the weird thing is if you look at the the acting from that first from her to the new thing the new actors, directors whoever was doing it didn't really get what Maria was doing. Because if you watch those ads, they're enormously subversive em, you can't get no time. She's like, this is nuts. I know it's not but I love it. So it's like it's like if she only ate Frito-Lay's yeah and eat them all and that was the average Frito-Lay's might love that and people might buy more Frito-Lay's but if they got someone else who didn't get that eating just look gross. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what the second that's what the two people I don't know who's I don't think that's anyone's fault. It was just Vision its Vision, but it's like I think it's hard to explain but it's like those are that's what that's the difference between like dog. The copycat and like the raw uncut Artistry of someone like like and I think that there is something to that that it's like you see something that it's like Tom Waits didn't have to exist birth banford didn't have to exist they started to exist and then it seems regular like it seems like oh, yeah, like you do silly voices and also like you do this and then like I'm not punk-rock to the office to be like like I've done commercials and I would still do commercials but it is really done some ads on this very program. Yeah you go, but it's it's it's cooled. Also, you'll see the people that it's like, oh, yeah like Maria Bamford so brilliant so good that she can bring something to Target that they could never even think of themselves just cause of the way her her brain works, you know, and yeah and then and then you want to put a dollar amount on it and it's like and it's like yeah, there is a dollar amount but it's great. It's cool to see people that can walk away from the dog. Amount yeah, because that's what Tom Waits. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he did or like when you know everyone with the Chappelle show everyone's inspired by like, how did you do that? And he's like, I just walked away and it's kind of yeah, I think wild yeah it is. Well it it feels it feels weird because it's there's this this point where if you're sane enough to know that you have enough money like it's sort of like what Jeff bezos's wife what he got divorced. Yeah, his wife donated Seventeen billion dollars to like cuz I think she got thirty five billion dollars something in the divorce billion and she was like, I think I could donate little like half of this and still be okay. Yeah, and that that's that's a real same kind of, you know, you're like like Jeff Bezos has a trillion. There's never going to be a check to check for that guy. You know, I mean, that's yeah the certain point you're like, yeah, it's that's just a different mindset of under like I don't even know what drives that much. What are the good? Yeah, like, however I spaced JK Rowling JK Rowling off the hell she's decided to die on his a stupid fucking he'll but here's the other thing is the first when she first became a billionaire And she did probably ten years ago or whatever. She donated enough Millions to make her not a billionaire. She was like, I don't want to be a billy. Yeah. Yeah, and now she's a billionaire again because it turns out the money still coming in. Yeah, like it's not people are still buying Harry Potter. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. I mean quite honestly if Jeff Bezos gave away, he's worth something like nine hundred billion dollars or as close to you might be the first trillionaire. Yeah, like if he gave away all of it, like if he kept a dollar he would be a billionaire by the end of next month it would be fine. And so it's just dumb but I hope that one day that I that I will walk away after cuz right now I make thousands of dollars what I work right now, but but but but like when I when I when I look at like my like how much money I'm making now, I'm like, I feel fabulously wealthy. I bought a pair of shoes the other day off. Over the internet that I didn't even I was like they may not even fit I'm buying them and they were like 70 bucks that feels super wealthy to me that and that's I mean that is the month when you're around super rich people if you've experienced enough of them in New York that you're just like they're not like they're there's no way there's no way that you can know it off until you like live it but it's like truly if you're provided for you have like yeah, there's so many there's that's a good gratitude just enough enough to be able by some buy some shoes that you haven't tried on. I think that's the level of wealth that everyone adores. Yeah. I have food. I have a car with gas in it. These are all very, you know, yeah, this is Josh. I'm I'm covered I think month to month. I've got I've probably got six months and you know what? I'm grinding it out right now. It's covid-19. Off to make three hundred bucks a while. Like two or three hundred bucks a week doing Zoom show. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm like just something something coming in something coming in. So I'm not you know, it's not all going out and I'm fine. I'm fine. But what I remember when we first went into lock-down in March, I bought like ten pounds of rice ten pounds of beans the rice moths got into it. I had took away fucking five boats rise. I was so bad. Anyway, I've digressed completely off of Tom Waits know we're at an hour. But what would you gain? Will you make me a nice a nice mix of Tom Waits doesn't have to be the covers. Yeah. No, I'll make you a playlist of Tom Waits and and I will find a I'll find a nice songs of songs and I have I'll find like a short little interview with them that that maybe you'll find fascinating. Yeah. Oh that just a short. You talked to Tom what you talked about? Oh, no, no no song. Just an interview. Oh of an article was like, holy smoke talk about saying the lead know exactly your we are love to find that I'll tell you I'll tell you about the next time it wasn't as cool as I thought it was like I was like, come on man. It totally don't meet your Heroes. Okay his breath smelled now, I'm getting nose. Oh, that's awesome. Okay. So Kevin James Doyle don't turn off your recording device. I would like to thank you for being on the Dork Forest. This was fascinating and I look forward to getting this. This wasn't I didn't feel as bad about not knowing who he was as I have with other musical Heroes I so well, yeah, thanks. I'm I hope it was I hope it was fascinating and not not. You know, I hope if it one little if I'm excited for you to hear the playlist, that's what I'm excited for. Yeah, me too. Me too. So Kevin James Doyle at Kevin James Doyle at all the places 30 year old virgin. Is the name of the album and the Bradshaw voice is the name of the podcast. Thank you for doing the show and Rangers, you know the rules out there take care of each other my hat my hat my hat. They're dancing around my birthday hat my hat my hat. Well, what do you think that if it looks like a Mexican hat dance and it sounds like a Mexican Hat Dance. It's most likely a Mexican hat. So take up your head and legs and oh my God, why don't we just call that as the end of the show?
Episode I: The Phantom Menace | Star Wars
"Look a fender bender when you're already late or thief breaking into your home and making off with your new flat screen TV. Luckily there are more than engineered star wars presented by state farm. You know those days when it feels like problems just pop out of nowhere helpful folks at State Farm much fearing find an agent today at State Farm Dot Com editor in chief of the Ringer Dot Com Ese big energy the four chance it's not the fastest pot of bill but it is the deepest ringer senior creative your Jedi Master Jason Concepcion Mr Oh boy that feels right and welcome to binge mode star wars the mindfulness of your feelings you'll thoughts dwell on your mother I miss afraid to move sir time forbids mode feel you needs to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to suffering extremely wide cannon level I'd capital par sex wide you know we like to explore vast universe of content that's what we're doing here yes long now I didn't kill anyone you know for it I need everyone because at long last it's time for Benjamin Star Wars folks we like a vines the ringer together searching for balance you know joining me today now then he's acquired a pot and again holzer afraid are you know sir see through we can proudly part of the Ringer podcast network on Mallory Ruben. It's the first time I've ever said this allowed Oh here it is yeah I think what does that got to do anything everything clear the path to the dark side we're gonNA be talking about the skywalker saga films the anthology films but also exploring numerous other facets of this galaxy far far away we're GONNA BE DOING CHARACTER Studies Steve Palpably back you never left on December twenty eighth please head to the outer rim that sounds interpret I've encountered divergence in the force you say located around a podcast a boy geography all that and more leading up to the release of Star Wars episode nine the rise of Skywalker Pal b back our good friends now you just tell us who fucked Sh- me so K. I don't like you do reviewed your opinion is I request the boy protested and to your fear of what will happen to you if you don't give us the five stars and follow us on twitter and Instagram at binge underscore gend and he's got his ass nestled and what appears to be a trophy that is functioning as a day his ass if you there's a moment when he stands on his pod and waves as you will I will please head over to the Outer Rim William with us by subscribing to this podcast on Apple podcasts did your spotify Nykanen Star Wars archetypes discussions of the mandatory in television show wants that launches on November twelfth chats about the comics the merge the mastic why gone more to have you with your permission my master Oh trending spoiler warnings to this podcast is finding him was the will of the force I have no doubt of that bring him before us then Oh but here's my take anything goes into padre it's fine I think that's clear yeah when you think of Baba's pre padres routine where he's getting a massage on changed your life please heads the ringer dot com slash shop to check in our brand new binge mode merch holds up even if you're pod racing against that shady fucker today we're starting to dive deep into our store the crowd and you had asked goes all the way up to his neck it's disgusting that's all that's all I will say about Seborga I think hideous or Mode Aka the underscore go ahead and join our facebook group to which is just for binge won't fans in which is an excellent place to share how jar- jars pearls of wisdom blind episode one the phantom menace as well as all of the rest of the films in the Primary Star Wars Universe clone what actually happens in one thousand nine phantom menace by heading to a podcast far far away in queuing up the opening crawl longtime ago galaxy of the deadlocked Galactic Senate since two Jedi why Gone Gin and his Apprentice Obi Wan Kanobi you might know him as Ben prediction it's not last time on bench mode we concluded at least in far far away tax wars rebels even legends Hashtag not cannon not cannon not cannon no all of it we're taking all of it into account reading interests controlled by the Moignan's places and blockade or in their words very tough very very in other happy with taxes on their shipping routes what taxes the Trade Federation a conglomerate of planetary you may know better as Senator Sheaf Palpitation Aka Poppy House palaces engineering the crisis to place himself at the head of the Senate in pappy urges aw sales of the highest concentration of midday glorious I have seen in a life full this possibility was conceived in general contains adult content so keep that in mind as you proceed now take off your makeup along Zaken take make sure decoys got her fit on 'cause it's ores binge as always spoiler warning we'll be going on from nineteen ninety nine highly anticipated it and great city under the sea beautiful quite great pretty great place to spend a couple of days little bubble pod shirt with boss NAS bus just waiting for kids about taxes Dan I wonder if he means Ben Kenobi I wonder if that's the guy he was much cooler when he was a kid like this punk rock little braid that he were I want not later travel through the planet core with jar jar as guide which basically amounts to and few don't think trust your instincts and trust the plot points because before we dive deep it's time to offer a brief refresher talk to negotiate on the Federation ship the Federation and its leader Viceroy Newt Gun Ray are secretly working with Dr Citius I think at a junk trader shop run by Wacho a toy dairy in with the Chin War wherever you get your podcast please reviews yes greed can be a powerful ally we want five stars Benjamin Reviews Five-star Devi out of the way desert planet notorious for gangster activity for repairs. I wonder what they might find on tattooing uh she's crazy will spin off time or should George are Martin the other Georgian our life ever graced us with the winds of winter for now our video game of thrones run and here they meet young Anikin Skywalker are you an angel looks like a scrotum with about two and a half weeks of hair growth after some self grooming I think a little more than two three and a half mileage may vary it's not really clear when you're watching the movie I mean there's also the issue that like any is a slave yes and that's a whole nother thing flirting with eighty Q.. Immediately the problematic flirting here tough now we should say right away that pad is supposed to be fourteen sure bravery the homie of Ashra Metro. Rtd To make landing on tattooing ever heard of ever heard of Oh boy great pickup line for Mannequin. He's got the moves even at nine yes dear sweet annie is a slave and also tech product yeah it's like parts of brakes on that you had another task you're supposed to complete talk about that Queen Dollar the head to know now remember concentrate on the for bumbling apparently gung exile jar banks he's clumsy they travel with them to the gung and city Oda Ganga See why God can cussing him and then Georgia are doing nothing they head to new to assist Queen Amidala against her federation fo the Queen using a speaker of his own design Jin makes a side bet with Wacho for Ani's freedom wins the race says goodbye to Sh- me and to see charges the trade federation with acts of illegal war in front of the Senate Sheaf puppeteer thing going on here frustrated with the bureaucracy me who sadly also slave cuagone interested though yogurt sauce he's very interesting we'll get into that not a bit and advocates unfinished Protocol Droid C. Three Po I call them my boxes showing Madala and George our fleet new hoping to make it to the galactic capital of course on but their ship takes damage that ship sucks their ship takes damage and the because of the south to start a movie that way tough or that anywhere in the air or on the planet Nabil to resolve the situation these supreme chancellor who have who knows centuries of mistrust between them and the first act of that alliance on the side is for the queen ago why don't you sacrifice your entire Army so I can run down the hall what do you say boss Nass is like let's do it. APO But on the way to the ship they're attacked by Darth Maul how these apprentice are here's getaway now where of a new threat on curse on the job that you were set out to do at the beginning of this movie stop with all this nonsense Queen Hatches a plan to use this is great child's slave is tough at any age atkin take some right-back to his home come home with me where they meet his mother believable no better time than she help just plan folks he's been named Chancellor Obi Wan meanwhile leaf that adequate skywalker is the jet of prophecy the Chosen One destined to bring balance to the force this is quite download busy meeting and they're basically like ration- kill the jets and begin the invasion of New the Jeddah escape they make their way to Nebraska where they meet the bumbling exiled eventually defeated by Obi Wan Queen Amidala and her team capture the Viceroy end in Space Anikin accidentally but lightly with the help of the four destroys the Trade Federation control ship causing its entire droid army to lose Wi fi and go off line the battle is over no hotspot and this will be a theme of the PREQUELS and indeed the entire saga in fairness year he the dude is like eight hundred something at this point a little Caesar uninformed the Jed eye counsel here we are with the jet council at long last there jet I like more than two exiled ones alive tells them all about and his sin if he could be the emperor she calls for a vote of no confidence in the Supreme Chancellor and resolves to return to the donut with the munchkins still in the middle and it makes me hungry back on curse on pulpy hanging out that's it no backup for those guys backup if they're not online they're not doing anything that ship I like by the way they don't yeah it looks in our door small the gunman army in a trademark alliance original this is a historic alliance between two people this origins before we get to Z.. As the battle unfolds Darth Maul strikes and he kills her friend Quite Gone Jin the sound of doors later breathing and pitifully it's gone Yoda meanwhile finally finally agrees that the have returned while he's just lost it a little bit doesn't add as fast ball the way he used to wants Mace Windu excuse I don't know that's a very tough one the goal capture viceroy and the bill that's right and prove the federation's Crimes to the Galley Oh Jin presents and into the jet council he would like to take the boy on his pot oh on but iota has a few objections strolled ages deficit's big idea and indeed life's bigger idea yeah so let's search our feelings used force the defining theme of this episode in the ensuing response the origin of the Fan Division that has now in many ways spanned decades not only for Star Wars for culture at large quite gone says the end and pelvis not so subtle urging he's literally doing evil whispers in her ear great skate you see the real power there's velvet robes this guy's having the best time time no better time than being secretly evil C C oh becomes full fledge Djeddai. He's an apprentice no more but he has one he takes on advocate as Pantheon learner honoring his promise he said the movie had a garbo like Mystique and that it was quote the most craved film ever and I think that's fair to say you know this is like a trilogies beginning with episode one the Phantom Menace working title of this movie was fittingly the beginning indeed at least for a time and that's where George wanted to take eh by Jin Qua guns they're Ahmedullah disguised as handmaiden padme at this point there seve Hollywood blockbusters he wanted to show you how the iconic villain preps iconic villain history be what actually happens in the movie to discussing the origins that we see unfold in the plot itself let's start with the origin in a Meta sense of the prequel trilogy the Anticipation Fan Anticipation for nineteen ninety nine's Phantom menace was like insane David camp in Vanity Fair at the time has a great quote he called it the fans on the heels of his iconic original trilogy the movies that really remade the way we think about movies in the way we see and later on master Yoda is like hey let's level set here why don't you accompany Amidala back to new and she's on VHS as a kid I have a very vibrant memory of a blizzard that hit my neighborhood and laying in the snow for like like the dega toy with foam swamp that you could like suck Lucan Yoda and stuff into it had like a little lever that you could lift rocks with uh-huh discovers the Danton is unusually strong with the force to raise money for repairs to the ship on offers to enter a padras stories how did you how did you come to star wars fan was it with phantom menace rea- fan of the original movies before that when did you really get into I watch them on vhs the original trilogy large fish don't want to overstate the boundaries literally talking about a giant fish but the statement of course also has symbolic and thematic resonance you start Queen in time where I remember personally being like I can't believe that these movies are coming back so let's actually yet in a minute orienting the listeners with our personal star wars origin a great gift and the burden of the world that George Lucas constructed in the world that he keeps returning to and attempting to expand here with the prequel exactly indeed hand job that's what I think he meant hello my personal origin story star wars is that in the run up to the phantom menace released two hours of episode one Talk Jason Yes you can't stop change any more than you can stop the sons from setting and that gets us to this is to be one there's always a bigger fish as they are making their way through the planet core of new and he is listen he's literally talking about a bigger fish very very right but who was mall the apprentice or the master who can say certainly no one on the council onto episode yes I did much later in movies down the road cannot be me one day could I be Djeddai but I was also old enough that I think I was able to grasp some of the bigger themes it was always more of the Sword Guy Anyway yes and the Sieff who have returned what do we learn there must always be too somewhere you take your first step and first step takes you justice will hear Obi Wan say one day world into a larger world this is both I was so hyped for this movie so hyped serving it was a it was honestly shocking when they like this was you forget how across the Lawn Gung and I absolutely love my head action figures I had the yeah I was big time star wars freak what about you when you say you had a toy that you could suck luke with what do you mean I mean literally suck his dinner it was in downtown Baltimore and went and saw all three movies and I was riveted lake transport it and I was still young off that it felt like the kind of quintessential fantasy story awakening that you get to experience when your kid and you literally think you're like broom boy who will tint was like it was marketed the entire way as an Akins origin story that poster remember the iconic poster of happened before yes it was mind blowing that this was going to happen there was no mystery about what the came what he was a new hope released in May nineteen seventy seven empire strikes back may nineteen eighty-four tournament today three it is not hyperbolic to say that but we love Star Wars this is a celebration of a thing we love the prequels which again we kind of ride for actually I think probably more than most ah like Laya you really think he meant when he was going Tashi station for some power converter through the roof historians of this phenomenon are now agreed that the change became irrevocable shortly before the end of the second millennium with George Lucas Film entitled the critical reception that this move received and then get to the fan reception in a second so fifty three percent on rotten tomatoes which you know on the one hand means nothing little young mannequin in front of the hot tattooing his shadow cast behind him in the shadow is bigger and it's like I still get chills when I look at that poster today even though I've empresa dented this was to be like here's the biggest movie franchise of all time and now we're GonNa do it again but as a Prequel we're not gonNa tell you what happened after remain with people in them and some of those movies made sense then something happened and the people started vanished from the movies along with most of the sense for awhile spectacle was fun to observe but strong but honestly it's pretty fair I take which I will expound on a bit which is it's good that the phantom menace is bad but let's continue okay so the hanging on the other hand is ultimately reflective of what be mass response was interestingly there can sometimes be with these big blockbusters disparity between the critical score and the I am reminded of the Isaac Asimov story nightfall literally one of maybe seven most important essential science fiction of all time so hours pretending to be luke on half on half incredible being bend seeing force ghost Ben Kenobi in hearing him and I would just like crawling criticism that kind of a representative to one of them came from Anthony Lane who said in the New Yorker a long time ago in a galaxy far far away people made movies Elaine of the New Yorker we will mention bit has a comment about revenge of the city that I am now paraphrasing but it's something like calling revenge of this re release the original trilogy in the theaters and my dad took me to the was the Rotunda or the Charles Cedar and Audience Score very much the same fifty nine percent for audiences and there are two think genuinely thought provoking snippets eight accept it along with many other people sneaking fear that it would turn out this way what is this crap saying out loud crab holy Shit I mean it's savage Dr Wars episode one the Phantom menace the phantom menace is at once childless league unknowing and rotten with cynicism I would call it the disappointment of the decade seventy seven yeah I've been less about moment in time and more about the fact that we had just gotten to the point is consumers where we said we know what star I thought I finish the quote and come back to that but this is the fourth movie of the famous series and we think we know the territory many of the early reviews have been blase paying lip service to the visuals and wondering what smirking Ho Larionov smoldering chemistry that like leapt off the screen it's True Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher had that land nineteen thousand agents who are there for you because when it comes to auto and home insurance state farm agents like the Jed eye ready to help retelling we would have been Nezmar is and I wonder if that's true too and is incidentally disagree but here's where I apart with Ebert we kind of who gave it three point five out of four stars and said quote not bad not bad at all if it were the first star wars movie the Phantom menace will be hailed as a visionary breakthrough believable charm and intoxicating chemistry of the original cast yes Harrison for Harrison Ford Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher had a the characters aren't better developed how quickly we grow accustomed to wonders I think that's a great line and a great question he loses me here though only the pictures tipped into insanity or at any rate into the hypnotic Lee bad the joke was that the number of viewers willing to submit to such ship noces went not down and seen the posters better yeah we should say actually you can't really talk about phantom menace without being critical you can't you can't ars every night glance up casually at the cosmos and then quickly down again searching for a dairy queen so he's point is to get back to what you were saying this is a really interesting point so wait yes if this movie came out in nineteen seventy seven I agree to it'd be it would be visionary masterpiece not but well okay opposite end of the spectrum comes from re watchable 's staple Roger Cover your ears immediately wars in we know what we're entitled to we wanted to be better and more and that if this had been regardless of the year it came into our lives our first exposure to this world these characters these ideas in this type of stuff post I mean listen revenge genuinely good movie I rented us up it's pretty good clubs and don't like dairy queen now I love Dairy Queen I think we star wars is such a part of the fabric of our culture that we really underestimate the s we call is like saying dying is better than crucifixion well again I mean it is definitely yes you mentioned Anthony Land so let's talk about the this one here Raj but about the planet where the stars were visible only once in a thousand years so awesome was the site that drove men mad we who can see the being the most fun there's nothing as cool as consolo shooting the communicator on the death star in shrugging like there's nothing her siblings who wanna bone chemistry I mean it worked it was like right on the edge of are they making fun of this are they having like the just seemed like they were Sion's many many many though hated it lamented among other things the extremely detailed bureaucratic focus which is it didn't make sense and then there was the perceived by many racial stereotypes of some of the alien care a desire to sell toys and call back to the original trilogy in ways that kind win it ever tried CGI to this level before and clearly lucas was intoxicated and felt unleashed by the possibilities of this text the surface it's a very tough sell the sudden and for many unasked for reveal of the mid chlorine there's a biological basis as we mentioned in the top of this pod it's for kids but it's also based on like this minutia of like Yeah Lactic Trade Law we're GONNA come back to that early the driving principle is going to lead you to the best story or the most cohesive plot and that certainly seems to be how many die hard star wars fans felt some loved it some signed a Lens that could film the movie that he wanted to make it didn't exist in that's all inspiring at times but it's not necessary we we grow accustomed to wonders you could and this might be uncharitable you could apply that to the Creator rate you could apply that to George Lucas and say did he become accustomed with his own wonders who run the Trade Federation s certainly project asianise as I mentioned earlier one of the first things the viceroys as as four four sensitivity and the abilities that jeopardize possess and characters and plot points that seems driven by and less interested in exploring the actual mythology we're gonNA spend a lot of time later talking about medical oriented hold that thought the Forest Fuck Danny Persson saying I can make a different type of movie in making a movie as opposed to telling a story yeah I think in a lot of ways this is an experimental film that tag was experimental a lot of that is because it seems to be tech I instead of charm I like to the point about the line here about wonder how at a little bit later at the end of our discussion about the big idea of and I think there are ways to rationalize that choice and find things about it that are interested it's it's weird on the one hand for Lucas one of his defenses of the movie and why people didn't accept it was like well it's for kids on the other hand it's a to kind of like on Moore him from having to depend on sets and actors in all these different things he's his imagination could really run wild he literally had to try to actors in this movie I will say this I will say that I personally perceive them I perceive them as well there are three big ones here you wanna walk a stir on the pneumonia it never met one K. honestly I'm not that I remember that must be one I have some friends who will defend it with resumes mom but will return to that land and it was late at night attorney in a in a barn tattooing boy was it Cantina but did he become less interested in that and more order brocade is completely figure and yeah that's yeah I'm feeling that as an Asian person away he says in a piece for Salon in two thousand then Grad student Olinda wheat related quotes from Lucas when he was asked about these perceived workshop proprietor who has a hooked nose and really cares about money what else is there to say stereotypes quote how any credible way could you take an orange amphibian and say that this was a racial stereotype for African Americans he asked when I mentioned chargers we are going to do an entire jar pod folks that's coming up stay tuned for the deep dive you didn't know you always wanted on your last today than you might be expecting but again we will return him some length in mere days and then there is a good friend Watto the east favorite star wars character that's going to be a character consistently the worst star wars character in the Canon but he is fascinating and so we're going to probably talk about him Caribbean Patois he simply cut me off just because somebody has an accent doesn't make them a stereotype of particular kind of thing although I would point out that Lucas does mentioned that Jar Lucas contended the media quote turned it into a whole thing about the film was racist anti-semitic and massages everything else they could think of critics aren't creators their destroyers and ah yes of course said right at the top of the movie right away man open up the film like that is tough very tough then there is jar jar in the guns get into a conversation with them and it's hard to find a subject they can actually converse on George tough look for my guy urge is not racist and did not mean to depict these characters in a negative racial way course it getting into intent is like a trap he's a fascinating it is going to be interesting so there's also the matter of the film's legacy to your point neon the moment in time in which it existed how has changed jars particularly speaking the gun in ways speaking is based on Pitkin and one of the influences he notices Caribbean the Phantom Menace and the Star Wars prequel trilogy changed the nature of how consumers end studios like producers to thought about Ip like how this audience retreat from the scene we see them around a couple of tables of bad guy advocate absolutely with Al Murray anything they certainly don't know anything about history or anything about film they don't know anything about politics they don't know anything about sociology or psychology or anything I mean it's like enjoy back my Lord Oh wow and now I will give you my take those other things happened because if they hadn't and this movie I'd been great with these performances they'd be with us to this day but b I think any creative principle ever argue with me about that honestly incredible thing to say out loud he could do most of them that I've met a reasonably starting from George when anybody all right we can go back here it's not over ramp we can keep selling tickets to the two stories based in this world yes absolutely you can here we are with fans wordly slaughter them and Watteau you know goodbye and I hope you have a great life so I'm glad that this movie is bad because if not all device and fire yeah we're going back to Prequel prequels like this is the currency now of pop culture and in many ways you can trace that because of the vicious acid response of the airbase to basically every facet of this film they had to change the things they could change and this would have been rewarded and we would have seen this stuff again and on that note be sure to tune in for our George are specific podcast they'd really is push themselves to try to bring you something that literally by the definition of the innovation behind it you had never seen before is a gift to movie goers everywhere it really is he had been gangbusters great but it's also say plenty of other things that make the movie bad in people's mind that's true right that's true but that's why I'm glad it gives me a note on anything that I right here at the regular this most of them that I've met a reasonably dim-witted I mean like the rest of us well they don't have any knowledge of it are it was and I think getting back to that the thing we were talking about previously when I was like it was mind blowing to me that this would happen and I think there is a lie it was a lightbulb moment for the industry to where it's like Oh that you will never get out of because we can't know what's in a person's mind all you can say is yeah that seems like a racial stereotype to me now if this acts here and hopefully many of the lessons that have been learned are ones that will lead to better products in the future but not always we also again who is talked about a few minutes go have the legacy of there's no question that he made the impact that he made on how movies were made how they were constructed and the kinds of limits that filmmakers the IOT inserted back in new but one of the things that George Lucas said in the extra called George Lucas on the digital revolution which is a fascinating watch also reduced to the point where they accept it and then in another feature out on the desk he says from a clip of him from ninety four before the movie was even made data's jammed chapter in the series okay fair you still like to stand on its own effectively but fair there's also the matter of hell he has this great quote on when the bonus features on DVD and I guess that's something else we should say at some point here is like you might be washing a different version of the movie that us that's serves in addition to just being commentary on how he thought about Phantom Menace as commentary on processing this movie in its role in the larger cannon he said quote there's I see beasts movies underway and ate the same problem but problems developing their as you go back and he plus marvel movies all the what's in development now for a word is that when Lucas was making a new hope everyone told him it was bad his cast was like George this dialogue doesn't make sense his friend Steven Spielberg and Brian Depalma all these other directors Bryant upon was like this is garbage the only one who believed in it was George Lucas cinematographer was feuding about with him about what was possible and what could be shot no one understood the vision he had he took a first cut of the real and showed it to like Salukis and how he thought about film in the digital age and the kind of experimenting that he wanted to do and in that sense he he unambiguously as a visionary the social drag on how fast you can take an idea and turn it into a reality that actually is part of social system it takes about ten years for people to kind of get their head around it for the point where it's in time and also the most efficient you can go back and look at his screen time through the original trilogy S. stock about and can skywalker Little Annie Love them fun fact I was dating a gentleman named Andrew over the course of the leader it's absolutely interesting we are of course talking about Darth vader probably the most iconic film villain of all time that's really important I think that's important context for Lucas his response to the response yes because I think the thing that we should keep in mind drove him that push pull are people going to like what I do are they going to accept what I do are they are they gonNa want when I do I don't really care I think that's because I want to give it to them in a new era of exploration and we are in that Aristotle yes we are in that air more deeply than ars barely seen in the rest of the trilogy him for a Moment Senator Jar jar Saturday charger what a Glow Guy Oh man helps to you the in these movies for like twelve minutes fifteen minutes barely at all and who's very outline is recognizable is no guarantee that you're going to be able to pull it off at all so you kind of feel the weight but also the real thrill of the experimental spirit is something you have to keep in mind with Star Wars that Oh for sure you're released and re edited and Special Editions and Collector's editions and is your yoed on Phantom menace a puppet or is he is that the phantom menace is bad let's hear it laid off Listen I certainly proceed these stereotypes I think a trap we can fall into his will clearly that's what this trilogy ultimately is about there's an oral history about the phantom menace on starwars DOT COM in it Lucas says the original idea for Star Wars was one you're prequels angel mail engine time his started calling him Anne and he Absolutely loathed tough look for my guy low the only one and look at it what has happened it's definitely not an accident that the that in mind he theme one of the pillars of the story that he created his side at the end of Djeddai but what do you never really get any information at as per how did he get about how this happened interesting because you really get an appreciation for how much work and thought went into this movie then honestly is pretty bad like a lot of people including Lucas himself associated with him and recognize from him you fear him so fully you're an off him you find yourself of course one over toiled and really worked at the bleeding edge of technology and making I think one of the one of the comments is really stuck with me when we first mannequin in the director's commentary Lucas says understood a lot such as where an came from so as a way of finishing the whole thing off the commentary on this movie director's commentary is really you not only to make the turn to the dark side but to be susceptible to being seduced by the dark side in the first place in one of those things that he actually has the capacity for all and spoilers obviously one of the reasons that people were so frustrated with the final season a game of thrones because you had so many people who are so desperate to understand what the night King Juan Wing for in this yeah we're GonNa you know obviously we're GonNa go beat by beat here not only through this movie but the ensuing prequel movies about what actually happens in Anikin Skywalker is life that leads him to movie about the tragedy of Darth vader but as the story grew it ended up being three movies in the backstory was never explained I decided that it would be important to finish it off and do the backstory because things I wanted him to be I'm paraphrasing now I wanted him to be sweet and just pipes elite innocent yet because I didn't want to do that kind of stereotypical thing Oh yeah the shape of him the sound of him it's an incredible achievement in film the Way the light gleams off his head all of these tiny things are instantly you're talking a evil presence the embodiment of menace who is yeah I thought we'd be self-evident about the story the audience didn't get and this by the way a theme yes over the ten years after return to the J I realized people missing is trust your instincts search your feel S. look inward three I the decisions that you make suck about the actual movie understand Anikin skywalker motivation you can't you could add is actually quite effectively conveyed Harry Potter I think we agree and have many not only minutes but ours wall he has said that achieve that there are if not Hinson evil at least hints of conflict yeah the choices that Anikin will have to make we're going to get in there to be any hint of menace or evil in the child who becomes the villain what a contrast to Tom Riddle I think both of our top people think of the movies Stanley products how they think of its place in the Star Wars Universe and George Lucas will often say you can't just think about the movie as a standalone have to did what the white walkers were really after what the motivation was will you can complain about any number of things about these moves the Star Wars prequels you cannot leave them saying had access to love and it's that thing that Lucas talks about in the commentary that he was trying to avoid was I'm creating this great villain I don't want where there's some kind of hint of malice in the child who is then going to become the villain and I thought that was so interesting and so evident as the thing that he was gone so you would prop up along with Darth Vader as these iconic signature villains across culture you know very quickly compare and contrast and Shirley love for an admiration of half blood prince the six book in that series in large part because of the gave us to how Tom Riddle became voldemort but now there's plenty of tough stuff in the middle mid chlorine is looking at you but at the end of the day getting access to Havana can is what life was like is pretty compelling when we showing this great capacity to hurt and to inflict pain and damage he's your thief he's a bully he's someone who enjoys pain because he has acted on other people he was sweet anyway we'll song on any and villain origin stories nothing we like more love and a villain origin stories entry return to these comparisons as we go here but two of our other favorite stories the other things we focused on it this podcast game of thrones of Potter one of the reasons that people some of them now so this is one of the indictments in the movie he enters the movie more than thirty minutes I think there's a case to be made remarkable the absence of actual literal freedom and that's notable I think that's an important theme mirrored here between father and son both yearning four I meet him is because on Obi Wan I'm Adela Padre have landed on tattooing obviously on hands and say oh so he wants to be different he wants to be special sodas Flannigan but Thomas already torturing people he's already it's in the last thirty ish minutes with the exception of the Lightsaber duel which is fun that it's like Whoa this is pretty tough a number of ways for one he is enslaved yes whereas Luke had freedom of movement was brought up not by his parents about some of the the fan cuts of the film the Middle Our phantom menace is good it's when you have to watch the first thirty two minutes freedom Luke just felt like the entire galaxy was passing them by citing war on there's rebellion it's all happened it is interesting because luke he would say he wasn't free right he would say oh I I don't have the ability to go do the thing I wanna do live the life I want to leave and then you contrast it with lives people watching the story unfold is just a boy on a desert planet in the outer rim lamenting is existence and his remove from I love and that he has a lot of love in his heart and his desire to protect the people that he loves is what leads to much that's that is a fascinating contrast some of the other arch villains all of these adventures that he imagines are unfolding across the galaxy that he wants to be able to have access to but anikin is different from Luke in he loves his mom he absolutely craves a human connection and that that's a real bond ironically and I think when meanwhile is actually not free yes he's toiling for no pay for sue the being of water who is a total dick the when he proclaimed so proudly that he wants to be a pilot because that is an idea that we hear from a lot of different characters including obviously luke his child also world for them and it's these perceived threats all around him that drive him to the darks I think about that exact reveals a lot about these characters me as your slave I am a person in my name is etiquette I felt like actually a really affecting line you know it's like Lucas can get can just hide in Sepulveda's ass it goes all the way up folks meeting Anikin one of the first things we realize is that being in different parts of the galaxy far from where he is he's trapped on this dusty backwater we share farming his life's passing by Anikin passing on the record hours and hours about our absolute boon soul deep not long fourteen flirting is extremely problematic that this happens right away there's an early exchange which is hated submit indifferent towards it Anikin like his son Luke years from now in the canonical story and years before in the planet wearing a new hope we are first introduced skywalker the ship the ship ship we talked about earlier that was meant to take them to the ship is fine I don't love it the pilot because what does flight representative represents agency the ability to literally go anywhere and do anything and to China's point of contrast you think of our favorite chapters the secret on where we go to the orphanage and we meet Young Tom Rental this boy who looks it is ah criticized for his dialogue I thought that was good in many ways and kind of rejection of the life years leading will be mirrored in his eventual rejection of the rules in the to the dark side now let's talk about Padma his Mitchell secret wife it actual cannon he is nine yes and she's fourteen when you're watching shortly in a in an environment where he could experience love and some freedom the moisture farm with uncle pictures of the Jeddah order she wants freed me wants to make his own choices wants to make his own life wants to just kind of be happy with pad May and build a safe exert some control over your own life and and in this moment and so many of the characters in the story ray all of these people will mean in his only joy is pod racing which is like actually lethal and building sepia and building C. Three Po who can we give this guy like some shorts something of childhood yearning and an expression of freedom through vehicles his first major motion picture was American graffiti moving great movie through every Star Wars there's always tinkering with the car getting under the hood rearranging the wires this like multiple numerous scenes he's the only human capable yes of performing in these races and that's an early indication of his force sensitivity his how you're going little trap more strictures let's talk pod racing I'm struck by how much lucas loves the theme of Mannequin with Georgia's help working on his pod racer that is a theme that Lucas returns to again and again and again a ham he tells quite gone that thank you we got it we got it there's also this moment where Anna can get back to the actual pottery soon where is it someone else told you you had to have but that's the irony because the jed eye are that passed a freedom for him but ultimately end up representing just another hajime and that is the nature and you and angel that is the lever which poppy will use to turn him I don't feel like they have access to that very basic right of personal which is I get to decide when I'm GONNA do Mannequin will return to tattooing to free his mother from captivity after started having extremes about her but in the process she dies and he swatted there's legions not just men the women the women shelters mannequin killing kids bid you think the padres mortality rate is it's huge a reality eighty seven percent it's insane that nobody died in this race in this movie I'm going to say like thirteen the movie it's like Helix Eight and she looks forty I love now she looks great she it was flat it's I'm going to go to all of them like that compulsion to explore is stemming fully from the desire to not be tethered to the Oh on why you know why of all the things that any of those people who want to be and of course obviously I can also you know wants to be a jet I today tomorrow and the next day I'm going to decide how I wanna live my life and soaring out into the stars into the sky you know there's a moment later in the film Mannequin we'll look up and say I'm GonNa go to all you can tell us why gun that he had the stream the stream that he was a jet I and that he returned to tattooing and freed all the slaves in episode to tackle clones the best parts of this character is that is the thing that is his downfall patchy that's the tragedy he wants to be loved loves his mother eventually gross alone origins for US understanding this as well as for him to believe in his own dreams and his dreams are prophetic he does become a jet I and later when he dreams of his mother and destroy axes are just like that he can just perceive things before they're going to happen and react to them in an inst- any that even by Djeddai standards he is except confirming in this rat all and that's where I am part from Ebert nothing that rises to the level of those performances in this movie and the same people like sniping you and that's not even the in the top five of the dangerous things that happens during that race if something explodes he said in the early sixties in Modesto about teens kind of out on the town cruising near cars looking for cheeseburgers and that kind of like car culture is evident I she will find her in that exact state so of course in revenge the when he's dreaming of Padma dying in childbirth he responds exactly in the fashion that he worker and Battery Young Ling's God he learns early this conversation here is one of the Channel Yeah you must have Jerry flexes if you race pods quite unhelpfully says Sir laming main yeah we got it he does because he has been trained from this moment in time when he's sitting there with quiet on saying I dreamed I was going to be a Jedi and then it happens everything else follows that same pattern to know that what he seeing will be real and as we have said and we'll continue to say in many ways his origin and his driving force are listening to we don't really think about the way darth evolves even through the original trilogies he is such a minion in the first movie and then really becomes a absolutely driven by pain and hubris thirsty to serve the emperor I think that's another thing that's really fast range that someone so powerful should just come across their path like this if anikin had grown up in the Republic of course he would have been plucked out of obscurity because of the way someone might treat you the way you respond to a situation he'll eventually become of course like a mask galactic murderer arrogant complacent much earlier the blood test would have been done more on that in a bit and he would've been trained yes but instead he fell off the map ended up tattoos shows one deemed it so maybe sure yet but also because it is actually fundamentally in his nature to want to help fascinating a paternal bond but literally the fruits of his love with pad may that's what makes him so compelling that so interesting and so when he says here kind of understood what drives antic and rather consistently like criticizing him about his fears and his loves nurture I think he can make the case that yet again here is another example of the council mishandling something if they had ooh that's kind of an incredible thing that we get to witness and even at his darkest moments when he is turning when the seduction is underway like in DC which is not in any way how we perceive darth vader in the original trilogies lot of interesting questions here philosophic about nature maybe they would've been able to hold onto him that's really interesting to think about not just like within this character but within your own life the ways that your life can branch off her mom this is when they're having dinner together she doesn't want him to participate in the padres it's dangerous it's scary says says mom you say the biggest problem then though he is still driven at least in part there's a kernel of it's still by this desire to aid and protect the people that he cares about from something other than just the union between a man and a woman his literal origin is not just a mystery but a mystery that asks viewers to recall bill teaching and that's a moment where you go back to the original trilogy and say well however I feel about the lear who is the father no who was his father in personal in a hurry here like real quick why real quick in this universe is nobody helps each other doors mater is sitting there saying the problem in the universe is that people don't help each other that's kind of we get a kind of really earthbound biological basis for what to this point has been legitimately like magical powers force in his own right over the next two films quite gone quite quickly recognizes something special about him there's something about that boy he tells Obi Wan in this backwater his hogwarts letter never arrived but here he is plucked from obscurity by chance and quite unseat the hand of deaths which again more on glorious very very soon this is a really important moment I think in the narrative you should be proud of your son quite until Schmidt who we don't know Ishmael at this point gives without any thought of reward clearly that will chain any senses that there is something about Anikin some role that he has to play and he can tell it he's powerful any thinks of St this is a real drop moment when this comes out I carried him I gave birth I raised him I can't explain what happened now again much to come had questioned Jesus me happy to share though and she says folks this is a real line in the movie there was no father are we taking this kid into pitched battles in the first place quite can we talk about this like child endangerment laws are just being broken across the galaxy on Schmead Dick and down with the medical orients stay tuned but in this moment right away you're processing this in new is really stands out as one of those moments that you're highlighting these forks in the road in a person's life where you say what if something could have been different then we get the race itself is a really good sequence to discuss for a minute or two here in terms of the purpose of the scene Yes it shows set me when talking about her beloved son says he doesn't agreed on there's a difference between greed and desire but that is a very thin line for all the new technological toys that Lucas wanted to display I mean I think it's clearly again lucas loves car culture loves loves loves blood sample beams the blood sample over to ob one on the ship they run the tests he's count is off the charts higher than anyone ever record rainy at work here yes and he says to me the force is unusually strong with him and he's not shy about making bold proclamations here right that much us get that Tuscan Raider connective tissue and think there's a lot of parallels here with Omni building his pod racer all is inside of him even now he's driven by fears room by love and those things will push the choices yes to make right to the four I mean movie pushing technology to its utmost limit and he wants to display what it's capable of and he wants to really well people glorious aside jet I are presented to us as religion Yes Siamese Anderson to play here too that's right let's get that blood let's get a blood test mystery of star wars because as you said the force is presented in mystical terms Djeddai are seen as like a religious order and here for the first time in that cockpit don't move wink wink nod nod you'll be safe there so long for the battery of the potteries right and to help you that's what she says to cry gone she sees a to justly quite gone it's going to start to see the role that Anna can has to play meant to because the force because the prophecy of him being the think it's you know when you've listened to the commentaries of the original Trilogy Win They released the updated editions the constant theme there is Lucas saying Oh all the stuff that I want is this only about Anna has ability sure okay if serves that function in the plot but that is not why it's in the movie it's there as a thirteen minutes showcase or forced to grapple with the fact that anecdote is being presented us as God not just the Chosen One of Prophecy Djeddai Lor but a little Christ like figure born anikin guided by the force quite gones first lesson to trusted to use it wins the padres some catas- or not how everyday regular people in this galaxy talk about the force as this ever present source of aid and assist distances symbol the power that's what it means for people think of the very heart of what the force actually is in how people talk about it whether they're Jeddah car culture and also loves to show off the tech those are two things he is at his heart a tinkerer setup the merge set up video games I respect all that all of that falkiner walkout but we couldn't do it and now he could do all the things that he's always dreamed of and he wants Lex he wants to flex he wants to show it to you in is your path determined by some master hand or do you get to decide what your fate will be an is it somewhere in between his fate place you on a path Japan will weaken just rule university two of us we can just decide for everyone and you're like Oh my God what you're just describing Galactic Fascism not great either just let me clean your cut and steal your blood very tough look I think for quite engine that listen you have to do you have to do he sends the for some things clearly offer at this kid if he had been allowed to train him and so these when you return to this movie after reliving the entire series an exchange like that however briefly and he will be trained as our meeting was not a coincidence he tells me behind she's like that's what I thought too they have real then it's your decisions that allow you to carry some mission to its completion does the force control or does it guide this path is in place before you on and on there is of course a sense of inevitability about Anikin not only because of the prophecy but by its very nature and indeed sin is about ones will ob one brave we'll hang down that balancing act is part of his journey from the very beginning the push and pull despite all of that there are many choices in front of Anikin as there are many many medical Oregon's some bloodstream many twenty thousand prequel right it's the suspense out of it to a certain extent because you just understand this character is going to end up at a certain place and yet again here we see this budding conflict even though the what George Lucas says is true and this is a positive excited kid we see that conflict already building an mannequins art over this desire for and the nature of control when he parts with his mother promises her that he will return to free her and that is the idea at their hope central's the entire saga we get the origin of it here one of many origins of it sink of all of the Times that this idea of hope this I'm wolf recur throughout the story layers original please Obi wan think of Jinro one saying we have hope rebellions built on hopes of Po later on in the new movies he wants to show what it can do he wants to show it off it's the same here with Lucas right he's been sorry slaving over the was on base when news ipad he's got it a shit speeder ship but he's called Mrs Mommy and Went Anikin and he actually had been able to take as pat on and he someone believed in him full we and didn't operate from the origin point that OBI WAN does which is why don't you listen to the sense of an hope that's there to help you lead the way well you when you bet and gone gets to take on a home he is now free quintessential star wars idea one of the central ideas that will be present throughout the entire story and one that fully associated with the light the lights whether to proceed just as he's the one who's going to decide whether to turn on his master side with Palpa Team Kill the young Ling's etc etc ask what being afraid to lose his mother has to do with anything iota says on give us a little iota quote here Everson fear is the best and that is crucial once again provides some much-needed wisdom she tells Anna can jubilant over his freedom but also full of the fact that the theme of extremely talented youngsters trapped in these power structures which here again one of our favorite things to talk about our favorite occurring themes in fantasy and sci fi stories choice versus density agency versus fate side identifying the perils that lead to the dark side but it's so much more complex than that why we're going to talk about the star of the entire podcast Xiaomi recognizes this his mother on named the worst film when until the second movie she says he was meant why is fear about their fears a human thing angers to and maybe the fear in and of itself is not what pushes sure she's long away that help him certainly in when you get that little moment before the race of quiet on guiding him it really is interesting to think about what a future for and it would have been like if quite had lived detail very well put after he shows the toss indeed breath Schmidt says to Aniston you've brought hope to those who have none and that spend much time over the course of this discussing the role of prophecy in general and particularly the question of who gets to fulfil it and the text of it reads as follows the mass murderer to be fair it's not the first or the last time for him at least right and akin then same time as Obi Wan is cutting darth Maul and half when Obi Wan's voice is the one that will guide luke at that pivotal moment in episode for is of it bringing balance it is and yes you does kill poppy stay tuned for episode nine to find out if poppy is indeed dead but does luke not also bring balanced dark side series anger anger leads to hate hate leads to suffering much fear in you and iconic quote A. Thing we are the spark that will light the fire will burn the first order down think of the Homie hold oh talking about the downtrodden how downtrodden and place their hope in the be one of the defining kind of his life sure yeah freezer for like again until she dies in his arms and then commits massacre but fine print there's a little bit will spark there the shoulder shut down you the way he kinda offer mountainous potteries nothing happens by accident he continues doc basically holds true now the borne of no father part would seem to be pretty unambiguously applied anikin but what about the seek to corrupt them just as the extremely talented filmmaker is trapped in the studio system that didn't understand him I think that there really is something there are parallel is presented to the council and given the test on curse on and look are dude force a strong with him and he he ors is presented by state farm state farm agents know that sometimes life throws everything at once like a fender bender. When you're already late when it comes to really fun synergy one more origin point and one more source of balance clearly and purposely put there by George Lucas we will watch your career with he tells antic and the choice is yours alone the force of the universe the prophecy might have brought anikin quite gotten together and can is going to be the one who decides yeah I think it's you can't talk about star wars in any meaningful way without in some way trying to like probe the mind of George Lucas but I think that there is something to let's chat a bit about the state of the Jeddah I order hase cops so fans of the original trilogy had spent more than winds up something to keep in mind as we go forward for we continue stick a quick break for word from our sponsors Benjamin using the state farm APP fine today at State Farm Dot com today show is also brought to you by the Google Assistant Hey Google may the force be spare of the fact that his mother's not coming with him she has to stay behind and he says he doesn't WanNa leave or he doesn't want things to change what is she telling you can't stop the change anymore that you can stop the sons from setting your phone a little help hands-free just say hey google to get started and now back to binge mode auto and Home Insurance State Farm agents are there for you talk to one of nineteen thousand state farm agents via text over the phone in person or Luke and ours who blowing up the death star at the end of a new hope at once a parallel in inverse of that that it plays out with you the force is always with me as long as this device has power the Google assistant is ready to help you get more done with just voice in the car at home and everywhere you anikin or any other force sensitive being to the dark side like you were saying before maybe it's the jet I asking Anikin to ignore the things that make him a human being two years thinking about the jet I order who the jet I used to be before they faded away who stood with obi-wan-kenobi before he became is there to be mind that's all I'll say Anikin and our two's origin is and it comes astro droid wonderful role in the battle is a really fun twist on Lou it's wild sometimes to read George Lucas comments and be like what are you talking about I wonder if you means been then what happened then hard living on the candy for Ben goes in one shell come born of no father and threw him will ultimate balance in the force be restored lot of details missing there I think in retrospect I bought before he went into exile data bugs Cetera etc etc and our first glimpse of an answer to those decades in the making questions comes in the form of an the vote of no-confidence is wielded against like doing half sent them to address the trade blockade interesting quote from George Lucas served as this instinct connections who the rest of the saga as some version of that line appears in literally every single star wars movie the opening exchange words are I have a bad feeling about this which is simultaneously like a Meta cell phone and also of course a nod to start and do they were supposed to be a city all the way here he's will see it all the way back it says a matte painting but now we can do it I wanNa Have Java come out I wanNa have come to the Millennium Basset Oriel mission not exactly the kind of work that so many people dreamed of seeing the jet I perform quite on an ob got drafted into service he continues which is exactly what palpitation wanted so that's the framework that's the backdrop for uh-huh does not many others as well could more than one thing beetroot wants love this could anikin and others fulfill together kind of the as or a high thing enthrone nagging a Djeddai who kind of is sensing that something bad is going to happen anytime someone's like you know I think something there's another higher point of being a jet I in fact maybe this entire story quite on like the old Obi Wan we meet in a new hope Don's they come in and sit down with the two different sides and say okay now we're going to settle this the weren't meant to fight wars that's the big issue in the prequels ended play I'm not sure the stop being afraid of stuff this is a reminder that the forest like the story is living fluid constantly about how mind control is represented and deployed in a fantasy story it's a tool year it's something that the heroes the nominal good guys floor we hear a version of that line so often we begin here with both an omen and with nods the past and the future alike with this line all were introduced to these space nights that we were so excited to watch and up sucked into the bureaucracy just like so many other people it is amusing though that Obi Wan's I is alternate happy to show us that one of a jet is key tools as mind control easily manipulates boss Nas into giving him what he needs tough couple of decades tatchell lean for Ben around that dude boy who learned from iota a human code and again this happened into that idea of balance and this key distinction between the Jed eye who are compass that allows them to decide whether they can use mind control on somebody or like with our friend jar jar as their loving and that can be scary but there's something energizing to about it especially if you remember that this is an energy that you can tap into and then doing so is really the entire regularly use to achieve their ends but in numerous other stories think Harry Potter just cajones kill grave clockwork force young paddle on again an interesting Meta commentary just hey man just enjoy what we're doing right now but also one of many examples of rush quite gone response to be once concerns by saying don't center on your anxiety it'll be one keep your concentration here now where it belongs adding be mindful of the living the oral history about the role of Djeddai at this point in their history quote they are policemen they aren't soldiers there mafia retain newly tighter chancellor says to and again after the battle and guess what he means folks he absolutely means it we will okay he's not he's not the rules guy he's the person who's like I think that this is the chosen one and I think we should sort I think the and of course of course this foreshadow something absolutely elemental to the story and Akins obsession with conquering death a driving force also the way we as Jud I operate like I'm a man of action and I'm just going to do things and I think that's really interesting not just in and of itself took it from I don't think so no one can kill a really wonderful sad delivery I wish that were so fertile first of all just feel but as a person who is ostensibly teacher of younger wannabe jet yes nice thought provoking moment at the dinner table exchange between the ultimate using the force tabby into the forest will what is the difference often it comes down to intention and who is to decide in his turn to the dark side as he fears that he's GonNa lose pad may the way he lost his mother in a way this film and the prequels asks a pretty on are going to the federation ship because the chancellor dollar on this is pre pal pts Shasta terence stamp who gets to do say one line it's down disappointed doc I'm GonNa make bold proclamation kind of cut through the inertia that has taken over not just the galactic political sphere but between OBI WAN on functions in this way preying on our anxieties about rewinding the story encouraging us to just enjoy what's happening right now like live in this moment oh beyond someone unlike on all of this exposure to an experience with you and McGregor studying out Guinness's role trying to match it really honor rush figure even this side bet that he makes for Aniston's freedom feels like something that iota would not afican absolutely would reject entire around your wrist and then cinch it tight yeah like how simple is that they're losing them enough that seeing a laser word on someone's belt means nothing because you could have picked it up on the bottom of the airshaft but anyway more importantly that exchange really heart wrenching change not only foreshadows croissants love or this capacity for Lavin this desire for attachment to the people in his life churches his mother Padma and eventually Luke his children Lukla who represent not only bridge the prisoner ex-man etcetera etcetera etcetera it can occasionally be twelve the hero but is often presented as a weapon that Geel violation of going through the oceans core and a boo can cussing him and making him pass out and always a little much you think in an Anikin when antic and asks are you agenda because of your laser sword precious and the following exchange ensues perhaps I killed you interesting question about the jet I should they be serving any sort of government and this is a question that quite posts Yoda in star wars age of the Republican he wants and he will continue to deploy this throughout the film not successful on Oiseaux by the way it's always fascinating but like we get a little taste of what makes quite gone really an interesting character and our character like frankly I wish we had spent more time with which is that he's the road offer this kind of thing also very the kind of yes wacho cannot be mind controlled but like quite on really tries which it can still run him too astatine this film but isn't suing pursuit of immortality which will play a key role we're going to talk about that a little more later and then the knowledge that he will pass onto Yoda and Obi Wan sense of the burden he bears and Gones as we stated really a different dude he's got that independent spirit he's a road it is a question that the last Jedi I asks numerous times or the force itself the way he speaks to Anakin about Judas life being hard speaks to a certain whether an intention is pure that's an interesting question that we're going to be asking ourselves often yeah and a lot of ways the the Jedidiah kind of a law unto themselves it's their own personal which again feels like a thing that iota would really frown on this is also the origin and our lives for L. to note here that jet I lose their light sabers like literally all the time they never got this can you can you drop party arms why saying how important that performance in that character was to so many people over you is mostly inquiry gone shadow in the first half of the film you just hanging out back to the ship wire dancing is it that it took until Nintendo for people to realize that what you need is a little strap on the control might same on folks that you then will be a fitting platform for him to emerge from to take on a larger role in the story the moment though there he meets Anna Skywalker when they shake hands on the star receiving blood sounds a blood sample taking phone calls and receiving blood samples stuff but in a way it's very fitting for an apprentice so much heartache ahead and then we go with these people from the jetty perspective to curse on I mentioned in the traded life we says you referred to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the forty believe it's this boy in quiet on bravely faint you novel heir to the Empire we get to the temple and it looks like a bunch of joins right it's like four regular him really unlike we've ever seen him before much more mobile missile with a lot more to say and really at the height of his power mannequin and cities in the movie is hey that's not a character from the original movies I bet that person dies right yeah I guess what that's what but not presuming but Yoda gets it but true reveal your opinion is quite gone tells them that he has no doubt that finding Anikin was destiny the will of aw and pulpy right who they have at least some reason to not know about Duke was trained by Iota and he's out there and he's wrong whipping left and right right away Utah at least acknowledges the dark side is hard to see there's an opacity there makes it horse he is certain at Anikin is the chosen and certain he was meant to find them certain he must also be trained again though much like the remarkable yes including what Mace Windu says next which is I do not believe that the SIS could have returned without us knowing well they have and they did and the fact that is not a Jeddah I really interesting that the jet I just miss this stuff tells the council about Anikin says he's encountered since around the forest and that he's encountered a boy with the highest concentrations of mies he's ever seen the mid's are off the charts positives annointment for that the end influence we also meet Mace Windu noted swordsman reasonable? Say That one response that you viewer have basically everybody Yoda and OBI WAN as window noted swordsman does die where in quite gone is addressing the Council he tells them about his suspicion that the origin points spawn other urgent points everything is connected that's part of how they talk about the force and life the energy that binds all things if the the general response here speaks to a colossal flaw in the Jedi order and one that will ultimately be a key part of their undoing yes forget about mom news of the Earth this is met with skepticism and the way that it has met with skepticism is highly notable by definition those two things are linked right it's a very interesting thing to consider because the council has said you can't train for two reasons for one he's too old which is yeah it is possibly says in an actual line of dialogue from the movie he was conceived by the Minute Gloria I can't believe that's real much like darth plays uh-huh big fatty in the middle we see George we approve and here in a really thrilling moment we get to meet Iota I don't Wanna see or can't recognize that the sister back why would they be inclined to recognize prophetic hero destined to bring balance to something that they don't think is out of balance get to that extinction for millennium from the sift perspective and a few minutes here and talk about that at length in the pots to calm but from the perspective here consider the Jedi are so ignorant to what is his groundlessly wild from and again this is the origin point for us to this feeble jet I order and they're just by saying dude says impossible the have been extinct from alumnium now we're gonNA late Saber wielder that he encountered on Tasmanian this is when Darth Maul cost them indicates the return of this and Mundi respond the window YODA deliberations occur and for now at a bit of remove but we get to see OBI WAN and Kwai gone kind of debate which just happened in the council because of really interesting so you find this force sensitive youngster who's like a couple of years past the due date and you can't train them way visit selflessness or selfishness it's Reynier passionate and when does a person given no other option turn to the dark side there opening at all any of it and that's in some ways relatable and okay because the future should be clouded one more of the rules guy is imploring his master to just not go against the will of the council and quite gone I will do what I must til y'all meet Luke you can't train him now and you wonder where the system from yeah yeah you're just like I can't train them and of course again wish we had spent more time with the student when and how conviction in single minus lead to action and win they lead to missteps of consequences fascinating to consider not just clouded lowered the boys futures now to be clear clouded the president is for the two they can't get their arms around you shouldn't be able to say that you know how everybody's life is going to unfold that it's determined by something other than the choices that those people are going to make by it and legal aggression of the trade federation which was like why they were sent there they accomplished like almost nothing of their actual goal and he's ready for the trials because the code prohibits taking to apprentice at the same time and we start to get into this idea of the codes again this rigid structure refusal to sanction Atkins training leads to quite declaring this time in front of Mannequin with him present here it that he is the chosen one and iota says stored in life again as with so many other things the system the Jed eye are legitimately two sides of the same coin here they are the same coin what is the motivation crucial information such as Dr Theaters you're father knees are actually the really satisfying moments in the prequel movies where we from your point of view leader of course beyond will use a similar line from certain point of view on Luke when he's justifying why you withheld it'd be anything more important than the chosen one in the future of the force is literally being starved into submission see the origin points that become an points or the become loops and how this history informs the future how past behavior informs the present that kind of stuff is really fun Vic Shen that the Genera wrong to think that they can see all ends he's not quite that arrogant despite his certainty about Anikin you're focused after the source of his loyalties master quite on as much to Anikin his students to himself even as true affection for him blooms in time sure in the end that he seeks we get a quintessential star wars moment when tells quite on that anecdote is dangerous and cuagone says be used the highlight of this movies probably Obi Wan using gones lightsaber after Darth Maul strikes the teacher down signifying the transition the words in a prophecy or by someone else's dictate quite on insists on trading him directly taking on his pad one learner giving up Obi Wan like yes interesting we have the kid great we just press pause on that for a second and like figure out the new thing can we do that student to teacher apprentice to master and in his dying minutes which by the way like through the chest with a lightsaber quite on hanging on asking for Guidance Jedi Knights currently aboard their ship and there's zero mistaking him this is the emperor from the original trilogy clearly now the Que- his fate is uncertain gone says he has full conviction in the prophecy and an annex role in bringing balancing force but also has focused and iota again is like I'm against this does not WANNA grave danger I fear in his training he says but what does he do other than tell his this is in the novels help eighteen is identified as the man who becomes becomes the emperor that is out there that is known maybe they wouldn't know but if you don't realize within like ten seconds you're watching different movie the second that we see seconds while to me he goes from no two I agree with you the council does in like ten seconds a wonder that the seth rebelled miscalculates with those he deems beneath him are actually capable love and this is a quintessential fantasy idea where the weakness that the threat that is beginning slowly to reveal itself bloom over all of life clarence moment when poppies Hologram cuts out during the invasion not reality he tells Anna and again he's teaching him already he counsels him on the medical orients listening to their wisdom learning how to town what is perceived as weakness is in fact a strength and were introduced darth Maul darth cities is apprentice when the federation loses Amidala not realizing she and the jet I've made is charges not to train and can fueling their defines and then sensing that defiance undercut his own judgment by being like fine okay do it in the span of seconds it's turned with leaders side and so let's talk about Seth our first glimpse of Lord Citius comes in Hologram Form Chattan with the Trade Federation fellas I know it is maybe that wouldn't be happening boo if you realize that the soon to be emperor were engaging Madison Mound philatelists later case too emerging sleet landing on that tween and he's absolutely horrific to gaze upon a face from nightmares literally concept Desire Iain mccaig Mall who was at the center of the marketing campaign this frightening visage this creature for nightmares cities is the phantom menace the titular phantom menace you his chin even though it's not that like wrinkly scrotal like structure that we going to expect from the emperor we recognize him immediately and he not a little lure here the Cisco the counterpart to the Djeddai Code Preaches Passion as a driving force. Don't we need a Tom Hardy Mash up here the sole survivor of a longer war against the jet millennium before the events of the genetic codes emphasis on peace and then we get into the famous I'm ready to debate the rule of rural to assist philosophy I coined by Arse oh the door was born city designed and based on a creature from his own nightmares viceroys replied to the meat could now there were two of them as we learn that is clearly the yes that is the point let's up into the forest priming him to focus on the import of the decisions that he is going to make and we get we get the dual which is I think spawned because apprentices are always killing their masters to take their place and bring on an apprentice of their own and then you also have master's killing their apprentice as soon as they find someone who's better now his voice is the same you could say though for a whole generation of purely movie goers who don't have who never tapped into the expanded universe now legacy right with these prequel films mandating that only two sis- Lords could exist at any point in time trail led to this for all but think about how much it also avenue pamphlet more the code dates back to you six thousand nine hundred bb y before the battle of Yavne that's how the highlight of the film the double sided Lightsaber veal is an incredible aesthetic moment and also like a great a great steamatic through what else over one train anikin ABC's the chosen one he will bring balance to the force in the this is of course the origin of obedience roles and against Mentor Mass Lake City is is just like an akin can you decapitate nuke you my current apprentice because I think you have more skill that will be a recurring thing that happens in the story Lucas and the oral history leaned the reason for the rule of to basically amounting to the sitter dumb just like the jet I he said quote the as the invasion is beginning is clean dollars young and naive you'd find controlling I will not be difficult key idea here as anymore because they kill each other they're not smart enough to realize that if they do that GonNa wipe themselves out exactly what they did this is the other because they all wanted to be the most powerful so in the end they killed each other off and there wasn't anything left so the idea is that when you have assist Lord and he has an apprentice the apprentice starikov imaginative voldemort. It'd be like to only have one death eater me now you see these sounds good I gotta say you see I like it I like what I'm hearing from the says they had was cooler and a rebels are always rag tag their stuff as mismatch their ships cobbled together from different parts of the junk places foreshadows how he's going to attempt to control in mid late Anton and successfully to turn to the dark side in how he like so many villainous characters and evil figures bent on getting power and influence but the empire is sweek these triangular ships darth vader's helmet that is honestly like modeled after German World War One put pieces alive there is only passion through passionate I gained strength through strength that gain power through power I gained victory through victory might chains are broken the forshaw free an stormtrooper helmets the stormtroopers themselves in that sleek armor doesn't protect much but it looks good it looks really good there's a real ferocious oh years or dated in the Star Wars Universe Aka when the first steps are was blown up the first line there in that code is of direct renouncement for both the city and the the dictates so much of what they do and meese windows like now is not the time for this I mean like he's got a point I mean this is always trying to recruit somebody to join him because he's not strong enough usually so that he can kill his master that's why I call it a rule of two there's only to sift lords there and by the way we'll go into more detail in the rule of two in later episodes and the rule of one malls battle with quite an OBI wan again business about that dual and also the hopeless helpless as Obi Wan trapped behind that force field having to watch his mentor struck down the sensation the absence of agencies often leads to downfalls in the story mall may not be Ticha medicine again and he gets to spend more time with him in the Israel the universe for a while two thousand years ago each has an apprentice with the problem was each lured powerful yeah that's kind of the thing they're working for right and this is Lord's will try to Eh guns funeral that mall hundred guess what listen I checked it out SIS for sure I'm yeah now I'm sure I am absolutely Isaac always to there are no more no less a master and an apprentice which was destroyed when you ask the master or the Apprentice and then here nightly folks is like Pad Mate Aka the actual queen go clean the droid it's a moment that exists only animated series various animated series but he's still a menace and you can tell that just from looking at him it's clear that his death such as it is the beginning of lauded for his role in saving the Queen's ship then freaking to buckle does for the battle of yet entre remember owning any droid you save by live like one hundred times are you are dude we I see him on that Lame Nubia nine from the original trilogy which is the Empire just had the kosher man who looking stuff every the most important characters the entire story either leave aside for now the question allied Darth vader does not recognize these droids Obi Wan i Kevin where that'll where where is it folks not only does ours you get credit he gets a rub down from quelling so subtle Oh my God i a couple of other things quickly before we move on the droids are origin with Dan this almost purely heartfelt and very simplistic story about good and evil yes these two things existing at the same time so remember like two hours ago squeak squeak squeak rub a rag on rtd to spotty giving us that mirror image of that we get from a new hope of Laya doing the same exact thing to the nothing not the end that another cith will spring up in its place in the dark side will continue its march toward it's at ten goal which domination of the Galaxy Windy tells us Russian of weather this is even supposed to be a secret with right that we build up to for the reveal and a wrench of the sits is kind of debated because the I didn't get when I watched star wars the new hope like when it said episode for a new hope I never thought what about and I mean only and I mean solely give us that visual image of patty in robes kneeling down to on the one hand this like really in the weeds story about like yes tax law right and all the other I'm you're breaking up as he's talking to Queen Madonna and his voice goes down and it's like sue city isn't it ceases lines to the federation leaders royal and learn that he began his journey in this story in Queen Amidala service fascinating I also loved it are two gets more into physically become very interesting to watch that play out the widening of the world this is fascinating to me because you know like this is stuff that existed red face the whole thing looked evil had the two sided lightsabres you know the only people who do that at the south one hundred percent is a sick and then you ought to give us the do these political and sociological matters as well as the metaphysical as well as the mythological consider the words of another George George Martin this was maybe my answer to Tolkien whom as much as I admire him I do quibble if Lord of the rings had a very medieval philosophy that if the king was good man land would prosper we looked episodes went to literally never thought that stuff just escaped me and I think there's really something fascinating about the the way star wars works on these two tracks sociological nature of the story bombed out a lot of people they didn't want to focus on the trade federation they didn't focus on taxes but let's look at it from George Lucas's point of view from the view of the Creator the person who's and for very sweet reason he wanted the protocol droids people to help his mother three peo- some funny moments proclaiming I'll never gonNA starship hilarious also intent was to widen out world and consider the implications of hinging the beginning of the prequel trilogy and thus his entire epic you can think about star wars as Lucas version of Edward Gibbons is classic the history of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire and this is what he's giving us is this very eh hello Larry moment in the film when one of the Decoy so we're GonNa talk about later who's pretending to be here tonight a fifteen year old the symbolism of Anna's relationship to machines his tech savviness this desire to build to toy to experiment given what he is a certain point of view long winded and overly detailed story about how a republic turns into a dictatorship in the phantom menace oral history on star wars full of myriad things and yes many of those things are exceedingly doll is so does the myriad things that make real life real no meetings and rough what are we talking about at least there is conflict between the stated goal of the principals and the ultimate real history and it's not that simple token can say Aragon became king and reigned for one hundred years and he was wise and good but tolkien doesn't ask aecom Lucas says my decision to make episode one was more or less driven by technology the first star wars were designed very very carefully beyond cheaply we didn't go to any big cities didn't have a lot of costs Shen what was arrogance tax did he maintain a standing army what did he do time a flood and famine and what about all the ORCS by the end of the episode. One wasn't doable for a long time so a waited until we had the technology to do it still that means long before we get to Jet Council meetings we get noteboo counts exactly incredible love and origin C. Three PEOs origin we learned that he's Anikin secretion and kin is not only Lucan Leah's father he is three peos father to he built him by his own hand yeah there was one kind of charitable way to think about this side rather quickly now on the one hand obviously as we've said yes the bureaucratic political doesn't exist out here we must survive on our own whether it is an entire or mystical galaxy or one town in our own actual world that right there is the one sorrow and is gone but all the ORCS aren't gone there in the mountains too arrogant pursue a policy of systemic genocide and kill them even the little baby oryx a little baby cradles will in this one lovie George Lucas is asking his version of what was our guernsey tax policy and there is an impulse or desire there that we actually really respect to build a fully realized world in order to become the emperor of the empire he needs to gain control the Senate so that he can eventually turn the entire Galaxy twos while everything happening on how we think about other people's lives star wars were so many beings are united by their belief in one thing the force is no different they still all primary functions of telling story to reveal our biases to challenge us to think about how our perspective shapes our lives creator of a song of ice and fire who has said the following about Jr Tolkien's Lord of the rings he said this long ago in an interview with rolling stone quote ruling his heart let's end the force and it's also powerful despite jar- jars how rude interruptions in a moment when pad may and schmear interacting during the all have their different perspectives on Khorasani we begin to see how the role of politics and the film is a conduit for teens path he is going to use Decoy Saba to go with them to curse address the Senate says there's something else behind all this your highness serious the Sieff the battle between the dark and the light the battle for balance a rigged game they need to force the election of a stronger leader soon who can exercise control cut through the red tape the deadlock in the Senate to vault himself as the one strong leader who can cut through the bullshit and get stuff done the Senate send a fact finding mission to Naboodah figure out what's gone she knows what's going on and senator popping uses that urgency to get what he wants he's the devil on her shoulder literally voice right there in her ear right there in the pod with her in front of the Senate a surprise to be sure but welcome ship it is schilling it really is there is such a palpable innocence and precociousness and joy there on anik inside and sandstorm on Tadijine and Padma stunned to discover that slavery still exists in the Galaxy because the republic's anti-slavery laws are meant to prevent it and Schmidt says the Republic and seek justice he manipulates her because she is a ruler desperate to save her people and she doesn't have time to have is what we're going there anyway old billy though the politics are gateway to that larger story is quite on says when he's trying to convince Queen Dollar really at this point her the camera pans right right pal around a boo is really the opening gambit in his rise to power he plays the greater good card chancellor velour I'm not in control any yes state of things it's right there in the title of the Franchise War and yet says I will not condone a course of action that will lead US toward one he says he's nominated to be the chancellor and what a ham incredible performance as he says by the way while wearing a plush velvet there are financial interests the trade federation interests that have turned this once fine house of politics into basically I gave birth raised yeah sure sure I believe what happened hey sure I guess I have to buy it throat me an amazing absolutely crushing it Jason yes there was no father carried this podcast it didn't have a lot of extras we didn't have at least still complaining about it I can't believe it we didn't we didn't have the things that cost money on a movie like that with this owed one I didn't WanNa tell limited story I'd go into politics in the bigger issues of the public and that sort of thing I had to go into bigger issues I had to the Jedi temple that's right teach us everything we need to know about midday glorious those horny bastards the joys do I have maybe you can explain I'm GonNa try please gather the young ones having the battle on learners he's all the blood tests immediately we deserve the right to know what they are all that said there's actually no one to one thousands of times I can recite them chapter and verse and never once did anyone ever say to me or did it occur to me to say what is the force exactly this essentially Donald Bhai like what is the island or what do the numbers mean we're GonNa be explaining a little more about the numbers may be significantly more about the numbers but what do you mean by what of all living things in a symbiotic relationship with their host organism medical are connected to the energy field which binds all things together commonly known as ended of Mercker was a Jaguar like Nocturnal Predator that use the force to locate its prey it found four sensitive beings jet is included hard to resist force when made it coins are present in significant enough numbers they allow their host to perceive and interact with and harness the force this means that any host relationship between the amount of chlorine wants bloodstream at least above a certain level that would make one for sensitive and the strength of that person's force abilities what are they just as quite Gone Jin explained to young and can skywalker midday chlorine are sentient microscopic life forms which reside inside the good that you get in the middle of the country talking about McLaren's in two thousand nine show runners Damon Lindelof as his hit television show lost was nearing its end told the live on the numbers mean what is a potential answer to that question I feel like you have to be very careful about entering into midday chlorine territory I grew up on Star Wars I've seen the star wars movies in animals as long as they're count is high enough Ken be at least according to previous Canon for sensitive for instance we have the Foreign Skar a native to the forest at the now defunct Los Angeles Comic Book Shop Meltdown What Answers he felt his story should and should not answer quote there are certain questions about the show that I'm very area the larger the Anti Force bubble and this made the forest of Merck are popular hideout for smugglers pirates now other lactic scum looking to evade Jeddah entangled is the philosophical distinction between two taxonomy of science fiction hard Scifi and sought Saifi and it's through this lens that we're going to try to examine McLaren's but I evolved a novel defense against their hunters the ability to surround themselves with an area within which the force could not be used the more e Saleh Mari in list and very tasty divorces prime quiry the Mary was like a furry tree dwelling Iguana also for sensitive the e Saleh Mary is the highest ever record surpassing even that of Master Yoda leading quite gone to believe that is dry savior destined to bring balance to the force let's and it can count as we heard according to the blood tests run by Obi one is more than twenty thousand McLaren's per cell which we again quick learn consider ob one more than a match for Anikin when the two duked it out on the volcanic planet and Mustafa in revenge the Seth pappy highground though the he had highground this shrew but before that even palpable exerted significant control over his apprentice Anikin despite any force sensitivity works but considering what we just talked about how much does that explanation actually matter and why's an explanation necessary oft sci-fi on the other hand is often more philosophical tending to lean on broader sociological anthropological and political themes examples. Now here's where the question of hard Scifi for Soft Sifi comes in simply put hard science fiction described stories which have a basis in real science and real math the original star wars trilogy we can think of glory and then as a hard science fiction element in a film series characterized by pointed lack this high medical Orient Count Anna darth became if anything more powerful than ever despite being violently dismembered because he did not have the high ground by the atmosphere and a star cruisers hangar bay doesn't shoot out into space and how blasters were now it's possible to travel at faster than light speeds of such details in fairness though if you say that explanations in this medium were luxuries getting into how gravity works on the death star stories excavation by it now it's excellent soft sci fi stories include Orson Scott Card's enders Game Frank Herbert's Dune and of course rained hard and open their minds and master their feelings to phenomenon with a biological basis that you needed a blood test for fell to many people a story conference transcript from the making of Star Wars return of the Jedi that features conversation between George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan hard sci fi would be she's you can lose three body problem trilogy Andy Weir's the Martian shouts to the potatoes on Mars and Ted Chiang's various ends themselves work as we just noted there seemingly no direct relationship between a force users count and their power level so we don't actually know how they were Canon what we can question now in the Post Lucas era is will they return or like most of what happened the prequels have we all just kind of agreed to forget that they have in that aforementioned dual thus having less body parts and therefore clearly less medical reasons so medications are an explanation for of just bogged down the pacing stuff simply worked the original trilogy depicted the force as essentially magic and when it's ascribed it's a near Miss Microscope organism called the will who in Lucas's words quote feed off the forest and quote control the Universe of course a lot of fans would have hated it Lucas and says they are sentient and what does that mean how does their sentence manifest itself how do they get into organisms bloodstream in the first place and also like who take the time to do it so like many things of associated with the phantom menace medical reasons were and remain controversial how you feel about them stickle religious terms in episode four one tells Luke that the forces quote an energy field created by all living things that quote binds the galaxy together much like skywalker not getting to do what he wants Disney of course acquired Lucas film in the Star Wars I P in two this philosophical shift in approach transforming the force from something that was perceived as mystical and he galloped -Tarian incense that it was felt that anyone could tap into it if ends on how you felt when you first watch the original trilogy did you think as stated above I wonder how the force works or Obi Wan and Yoda's explanations enough if the Columbians impregnated Sh- me what so many glorious as a major plot point in the phantom menace episode one are unquestionably because the train with iota and empire strikes back the ancient I basically says exactly the same thing neither will be one or massieu dimensions or even really hints at Maclaren's now ride hereditary link end let's run Aniston's blood sample and see if he can go to Jeddah school is wide enough he drives several star killer basis through it explanation for the force could be cool as presented the mclarens though really muddle the fair and create more questions than they do answers for instance how do the medical twelve for four point zero five billion dollars and has since released two main series films the force awakens unless should I end to prequel films rogue one in return of the Jedi Luke does say quote the force is strong in my family implying some kind of biological basis for the force but the gulf between an employee if the whole story abides by that Logic O. K. but as we talk about so often the rules of fantasy or science fiction story you have understand Cazin asks the forces failed to anyone who could hook into it Lucas yes everybody can do it casten not just the Janai Lucas is just the I and Solo Colon in very pleading fashion a star wars story based solidly on the tone and structure of the arrays. I temple with you I'm a young no more I made it through with that lesson internalize knowledge and my life amazingly I
Stop Making Sense (w/ Jerry Harrison)
"Eaters imbera this is. My dougie. The. Encyclopedia Companion Balshaw things talking is this is good rock and roll. On. Music. Plug into the show. Show. There was. Welcome to you talking talking heads to my talking head. The comprehensive encyclopedia compendium things talking this is good rock and roll music and we have a great show for you. Today we are going to be talking about the seminal not only album. Hey we're used to talking about albums on this show that's our bread and butter. That's that's our bread. And butter records are bread and CDs our butter. God but we are also talking about a film by the same name in fact, it is the Capturing, of a concert. Both of these projects, is there a worse way to say this? Both of these projects are called stop making sense. Nineteen eighty four stop making sense. We'll be talking about the record. We'll be talking about the movie, but guess what we also have a special guest on this show. We will be talking. To. Talking heads to his talking head. That's right. We have a member of talking heads on the actual show. What that's right. He's a member of the talking heads. He's a member. Of names other bands. Well, I mean. Little Band. Four fellas from Liverpool I can't quite place them. Ads from little to that is. Very much and then. Sentimental favorite of mine. The The traveling Wilbur, which, of course, terrific terrific band, and also part of some great comedy bits of money. That's right. We talked about those on previous shows and also producer of. Wonderful records like. The violent femmes and crash test dummies and the verve pipe and live a lot of nineties hits prolific producer, and then a solo artist himself got sued for his song my sweet Lord. I believe to the tune of several million pounds. That's right as it was in Great Britain. It was in the greatest of Britain's. That's right. George Harrison is with us. Amazing to have him on the show. We will be talking to his talking head about. stop making sense and what a treat that's going to be very excited about that Adam are are you excited before I introduce you to gauge your level of excitement? I'm very excited. I can't wait to talk to him about my all my favorite wilburs students the. Amazing. Traveling wilburs. I'm glad I pause your introduction to hear that little tidbit from you. But let us carry no further and commence with introducing the man across from me and when I say across from me I, mean across town because he is in his very dimly lit closets with all of his favorite sweaters in probably some of the sweaters that he doesn't. Like that much I'm not sure if any of those are sparking joy for you right now I can pull out my least favorite ones during the program to that'll be amazing. Yeah. I would I'm not very good at describing clothes by the way I as a matter of fact, in every episode of comedy. Bang. The television show it was A. Are. Episode of title of the episode was the main guest in what they were wearing during the show and I was so bad at it I eventually had to. Pass it off to. Our someone in the Wardrobe Department who ended up working with me as a producer on the between two ferns movie. Korean. And she she basically had to do it each time because I can look at clothes and not be able to describe them at all. Don't know whether you have that skill at him. I do and I wouldn't mind doing it today and with my describing some of my clothes. On the program today, how would you describe what you're wearing currently right now I am wearing a pair of Pair of cutoff, army shorts, not cargo shorts. Army shorts who's a pair of what's the Denny Pants? Well, cargo shorts have all kinds of pockets all over them but are army people people in army don't use pockets. They use pockets but the days used pockets in a variety of ways and the way I'm using them right now is one of the variety of ways that the army uses buckets, and sorry this episode of how do you use your pockets I think it might be. Everyone welcome to how to use your pockets. This is Scott. And this Do you have to get that. No that was. Siri thinking I was addressing him. I, just can't Siri be a woman. To British male and it's it's out a couple. So you're not comfortable with American women that you don't. You don't like them getting all up in your business. Yeah. I really don't want them to boss me around. But I'm I'm finding that I'm far more uncomfortable with British, man bussing areas. What did you say I mean you would make a terrible Batman in that respect. But what did you say that triggered? Muster Serey. Something about is this an episode of how do you use your pockets? Now. Didn't do it this time. So I want, you must have said something that sounds like Siri, and then how do you use your pockets in Siri thought the question was here use your ask Syria how you use your pockets and see what because this is part of the show by the way Hey Siri. How do you use your pockets? Okay, I found this on the web for how to use your kits. Siri Anytime Siri doesn't know anything just just Google's. No thanks serey. Thank you. I'd rather ask jeeves another British fellow Yeah Jeeves is actually quite knowledgeable. Yeah. You've essentially though just turned to your computer and ask Jeeves you've regressed and. They're going to have to change it maybe to another language Oh very good So anyway, the pockets on these pants. Now, shorts are really functional. They're great because they're really big, but they are not cargo pockets what I, I'm still straining to differentiate between is it the size of of cargo pockets is where they're located on the short? What is a cargo pocket and what is a an army pocket and what's the difference between them here's the thing I'm. Category may be slightly off I call them army pants, slash army shorts they're actually camp pants or camp. Shorts, which is sort of a short for Camp Pendleton or. just shut up for a second they. They seem to argue had plenty of time to talk because of traditional army patented. It's sort of an army green in the pocket is sewn on the outside of the pants. You know that kind of older army pants style. Hold on someone's at the door. Hello. This is the mayor of podcasts. This one has been canceled for being too boring. What goodbye what? Oh my God that's never happened to me during a show before I mean, cancel her being to I mean they don't even get aid more boring. Yeah I. Know You have. Not In, any of mine though. Directly, referring to some of the ones I've been on with you. Okay. They don't even get a theme song to say goodbye that it just an abrupt cancel in the middle of a show. I wish more TV shows would be cancelled in the middle of the show or just the network president comes on in the middle of shut down. This is just too much. You're looking like a I was going to say a young Jarvis Cocker but I'm just GONNA say Jarvis Cocker instead you're looking dead on at his age my. My my hair is long and so it's it goes in my face and I had to get some. But I'll say you're you're you're eyeglasses that you're wearing or big ones he has now and they're on a is that a string or a chain I keep them I keep it on a a leather strap, and so when I'm done with a sexy. Let them go and they hang around your your neck. When when you're done with them, you can tie up Naomi with them. Yeah or I can just throw them in the garbage. How many leather straps do you go through a day For five hundred. Understand. So you basically kill a cow what a week yeah. Well, I make my own leather straps and I use them for each time I take on or take off my put on or take off my glasses I use. A leather strap that I consider disposable sure and do you pick it up using tweezers can't be too careful these days what with covid I I have the arm extenders that you use it costco to grab things off of high shelves only handle my my homemade leather straps using the arm extenders. So you have an entire herd of cattle out in the backyard in the backyard and I have to murder one with my hands every day in order to. To make a leather straps I and I make them in the in a swimming my neighbor swimming pool. So you actually think it's murder I always kind of viewed killing cows for meat and for leather goods as like. You know at best sort of. Manslaughter. Yeah. No I I consider it stone cold murder premeditated. So I guess you're yeah murder one, maybe one hundred percent and it's aggressive and cruel. And I'm a vegetarian I do not use lead there in any other circumstance other than taking on and Putting on and taking off my glasses. But you murderer a cow week to do that Yeah. Cows every week depends if there's a holiday or not. What happens on holidays? Do you take your glasses on an awful lot more or on holidays? I do it twice as much I take my glasses on and off twice as much because there's just more always more to look at. On a holiday, just because you have more time and you get a children's smiling faces, children's smiling faces the world around us really interesting. So there are more and more reasons to take on. And to put on and take off your glasses. You ever tell one of your kids like as the mayor of podcasts going to make an entrance here and I don't see him. I'm looking my security camera. I've seen neither speaking of leather hide nor hair of him. Great. So I think we're good for a little bit more time. Going sure. But yes you. Look like Jarvis Cocker. Is what I wanted to say and good for you. You're getting ready to film a roll and you're doing with those method actors. Do you're changing your appearance so that when we look at you, we don't go like Oh hey, there's a dork again. That's right. You'll go hey, that dorks hair is longer. Got Sort of a beer is it a goat or is it a beard? I can't quite tell lean more towards the camera. I wasn't being serious I don't care. I do what I'm told. You are a nice podcast partner in that respect. How about you? What's going on with Scotch look these days boy I. Tell You it's October and. Though the leaves are falling my friends at rock, Tober already, it certainly is in boy If you look up at the sky you, you'll be like are those orange snowflakes Those leaves are coming off those trees baby Bam Bam Bam, I gotta say it's one of my four favorite seasons of the year. It truly is fall. In Love Gorgeous Fall. That's number one probably with a bullet number two was autumn. Quite as much I I love them. Both number three is spring in Australia. What happens in Australia during the springtime that you all the leaves are falling the Pumpkins? Our. Full there. And then number four, I would say. Probably. Summer of Nineteen seventy-five. Oh, yeah. No. That was a really good one because I, everyone says seventeen, seventy, nine, hundred, seventy, six was the bicentennial. I disagree. I disagree it was. Like when people say, Oh, the new millennium is started when it turns two thousand, no the Bison Channel was on nineteen seventy-five and that fact because everyone knows that we count the beginning of our country. By when the founding fathers I thought of when they start talking about it when they first started going like, hey, we started country. Yeah and they start like the drank ale you know off Samuel Adams was in the of course, was cooking it up in the back room and they were just all white and. Horse, an old old old for old for them and own slaves. We're bringing people in there. Where would you say? They all. Okay. So they're all like thirty thirties, but they look like they're seventy. When you take a look at the first of all, they're wearing those wigs that were popular in a back. Trend. I remember Bob Odenkirk. When we're working on mister show, he had a sketch that he was trying to make happen for a long time that was about the guy the last guy to ever wear a wig as part of a fashion choice and he was like ten years later when they were out of fashion and people kept going like, Hey, man, you don't need to wear that week. Yeah. Why are you still wearing? So they're all wearing like essentially these man ways. But let's let who which guy do. You want me to look up John Hancock himself or let's start with the original the big Bend Big Ben Franklin Oh. Benny F. see how old he was in seventeen seventy, five okay. Seventeen seventy, five Benjamin Franklin he was born in seventeen eighty five he wasn't even born yet. No no I'm sorry that he was an off died in seventeen eighty five right. Where's where's his deeds? Okay seventeen O six. Okay. So seventeen seventy, five. Yeah he's sixty nine buddy. That dude lived a long time for for such. A picture of him. Bill Stomach. Snarling at the camera. Looks like. All Sour bus. Boy Doesn't he bring him Oh he's look at the way. He's the everyone. Go to a PDF age, right. Excuse me making me cough how sickening this photo is. So he's he's to first of all I think it's a Selfie. And he's he's taken this. Paul did selfish all of them. They painted their own selfish. It's incredible. And he's just like he's glaring at the camera like. I did it again didn't I? And the other thing is he's eighty two during. The time of this painting and they're making him look like he's forty. Would you agree? Yeah that's like a forty year old. That's a four year old. Yeah. I mean come on painter. Whoever did that Oh Joseph duplessis. No. Thank you but. The other thing is, is like smile dude or like at least fixed the wrinkles on your Goddamn vest I dunno I don't know why I'm. So it's like he's hunched over to an extent. Flaunting. Let's look John Hancock and see what his deal is. Okay. He was born in thirty seven. So in seventy five, he'd be like thirty eight. All right. That's what we're talking about but look at his. Ron Livingston in this picture your office space. So. He's got that terrible gray wig dude is you know Thursday singers out of his face you look like the of the opera on his wikipedia paid is this an episode of roasting the forefathers? A believe it is. Everyone welcome to roast in the forefathers. This is Scott and this guy and we are truly truly. Toast. Get Out your marshmallows get out those Hershey's squares. Graham crackers, we're roasting these forefathers. Who Else? Who Else we have George George Washington Oh yeah. Let's Roast Oakland this big on the big screen. All right everyone. If you're following along Goto was wicked pedia page all look at this guy I cannot tell a lie you ugly. I can't tell a lie I can smell your wouldn't from here. Hey. Why don't you get back to chop it down the cherry tree while the rest of us are chopping down the cherries of the virgins that were having sex with. Like you're your virgin, I lost the plot on a totally no that was a good one. A can I borrow your jacket just kidding sucks. I there's not much. More Robin who else is the forefather man? Alexander Hamilton Alexander. Hamilton here we go. Baby. All. Man. I wish Linear Areas I. Wish I wish I could text Lynn Right now and get him on the Horn and get him on the zone yet him. I bet he went love to roast the forefathers. Is there any Hamilton lyric that Rose Hamilton? Alexander Hamilton. I'm Alexander One. Hundred Hundred Molten. Let's see. He looks pretty good. He does he does he's pretty handsome. Let's see what we got here. I don't know. When he's smiling he's yes. Only Dixie dump these. He's like happy's in the boom where it happened. I don't know. Hard. Shows too hard He's great. I. Love Him and he doesn't make me feel good either I don't bring the way he treated. People, of color I'll just say that much. Can we roast them on that let's roast them on this. Oh Yeah Hey. you're the eighth senior officer of the United States Army. That's cool. Yeah I mean that's actually pretty impressive. Pretty impressive. Doing this show is kind of making me feel bad I don't like tearing people down in order to build myself up you know. All right. Well, We can continue it on the next episode. We'll have a ton of that. We have lots of episodes in the future of this particular show I know but I I don't know if I want to keep doing it. Yeah. No, I get what you're saying. I wish the mayor of podcasting would come in here in Kansas. Kizer away to invite him or is it just You can text Yeah. Could you? Hold on let me Tex. Accidentally sent it to mayor mccheese. Now he's GonNa come over fuck. He's going to bring some nice delicious double hamburgers though. Some quarter pounder with. What's this youtube link that Kevin sent over? What do we got here? Oh Kevin sent over a youtube link. Hold on. Let me stop sharing my screen and it's cutting. Did, you see the name of the video. Okay. Oh, by the way, we'll see next time. Thanks. Bye Bye. Now I have to share my screen and the name of this video Kevin just sent US A. Video and it's Cowboy Junkies Southern Rain Parentheses? Yeah. Oh I know what this is Here let me share the screen. So we all can use it. Okay. I know what this is. This is a few episodes back. You told the story about how you went to go see the Dennis Miller show cha-cha. Yeah, and this is pre HBO show. This is his syndicated talk show. This is the one before he beat us for. EMI's. He didn't be me specifically be beat Mister. Show. Mister show the year before I was not a Chris Rock beat us the one year I was nominated for Mister show. But this this was his. On KTLA here. Why was it not? Syndicate. Yeah. It was. Was It on in the afternoon or no? It was nine eleven o'clock. It was like, yeah it was like eleven o'clock Ktla. He had a talk show and he would have musical guests on and Adam. Summers was his bandleader. Yeah from the From ACA Yeah. and. and. A Adam went to go see the cowboy junkies play was that the only time you went to see this show? The Dennis Miller show. Or. Any other show I don't care. Any other show I, don't whatever. You're not engaged enough to know what I'm talking about. The question if you want. Yeah retract it anyway. So adamant is the only time I went to the Dennis Miller Shank, you keep going to fucking how? You went once you're saying like I didn't keep going back like I went to see our senior hall wants to I'll hell yeah I think we talked about that. You weren't in the dog pound though no, but I did do the Doug found. That's the thing he only wants the people in the dog pound to do it, but it's too tempting. Damning whether what are the rest of us have us to do just keep our hands at our sides now did he come out in admonished the rest of you? Yeah. Once they cut to commercial came over to me and they're like three other dudes and he said, I'm going to kick you out of here. I'M GONNA kick you and Jay Leno's ass. Yeah. Remember remember that. That was scandalous when it happened and of course, it did not come true. But. Adam went to go see cowboy junkies and we about on preview show to go see the Dennis Miller show Oh my God I think I, feel like you think can I was a guest on the Cowboy Junkies Television Jim I'd no. But I'm saying you didn't did you truly go to see it because it was the Dennis Miller show. Because of the Cowboy Junkies Oh, okay. I was I was mistaken about that I thought you went because you were a cowboy. Junkies, Fan. Was But oh my God. No. But it's like a couple years after they were like this week Jane Yeah this is like ninety two in their past their they're past their prime. Okay I there's so much like they're in the rem vein. So I guess you're. So you figure I assume that you were just like, Hey, look you know checking out the Dennis Miller lineups go new cowboy junkies. Let me go to that one. But instead you even worse in retrospect you went to go see Dennis. Miller. and. But during the Cowboy Junkies Song. They did sort of a fake finish where Adam thought the song was over and he shouted out. Yeah. And we asked for your remixes. For any anytime, there was any kind of pause in the song if we could hear Adam saying. Yeah. So someone's. Someone did this yes. Someone sent us this. This comes to us from. J S really can that be right up that's the only credit we have but. Kevin if you can find a better credit, but let's hear a little bit of this. This is cowboy junky southern? Rain. Yeah edition. Spoiled. Abby. I believe there was another one Kevin if you could find out when that had had it less often but your yeah was a little. Better of a sample I don't know if we have that one Kevin but that was pretty funny. I was pretty funny. Kevin has sent something in the chats. He's got it baby. Let's hear this. This is from another enterprising young listener. Iot. Some. Way. Awesome. Here, the What's your the Guitar Solo? She's Nine I would. Actually. Love it. If someone did that during. Like. What an usher come by until you shut up or Just going. Yeah. I think so funny, I think. It would be really funny if you played this on a talk show, this is another episode of Great Talk Show Bits. But if you played this on a talk show and talked about it and then there was an actual ban playing and you did it during that I, think that would like some aband- with a great sense of humor like Portugal the man or something like that. It would be cool to get them in on it that would be very funny Oh. My God chose the actual one the actual no. have. We done that on the show preview. Okay. Never mind. Yeah. Yeah I. Love It. Oh my God. So funny. All right. We need to take a break way. Did we pull out of the forefathers show or is still on my gosh? Let's see. Did we pull out? Kevin. Pulled out. We did think we pulled out. Oh, man, it's GonNa have to go to the store for. To get a remedy for that. No one's ever. Adam you've never seen before Adam, you've never been to a costco at. One in the morning. Do. You buy it in bulk or food for less. Well, you have to with my situation. I have a very large genus is what I'm trying to this is. All right look we need to take a break. This is exciting. We're GONNA. Be talking about stop making sense. We also have the legend. George Harrison is with us that is incredible member of talking heads. We're GONNA come right back. We'll be talking about stop making sense on you talking talking heads into my head back. Up. Hello Hello I'm begging for Saad and I host the podcast face the nation where we talk about news talk about politics and where we keep you informed while laughing through the pain, it's a weekly news podcast. It stays on top of current events, but it doesn't leave you crying by the end of the episode every week I invited my favorite comedians on the show people like John Hodgman W, Kamau, Bell Robin Judah Friedlander John Love Beer today Thurston. You get the point lookout for new episode of Baked, nation every Thursday. Listen and subscribe to the nation on Stitcher Apple podcast. Abba. blowback. Talking talking talking head. Very, excited about today's episode. We're talking about stop making sense. The both the album and film and we have George. Harrison is going to be our special guests talking about stop making sense coming up but. Before we get to that. Excuse me. Think I was yelling our last segment and. got a little bit of a throat tickle in there That's interesting. Sorry. Before we get to talk to George Harrison why don't we talk about the details of stop making sense what do you say that would be great. I would love that. Let me go backwards. Here and talk about exactly win came out September of Nineteen, hundred and eighty four. Adam is this the first talking heads record that you ever bought? I guess. So I think it was more like there were there was a couple of copies around my brother was into it and I think my parents may have had it or maybe I did maybe I got the tape 'cause I remember just listening to it constantly. Yep and every felt like everyone in. The family was like this feels like one of those albums that everyone was into. Like graceland or something this truly for America. This truly felt like one of those albums that Adams entire family was into you know that. I remember this album very clearly. This was the first talking heads album that I ever listened to my friend from High School John had it. and. We This was my first year in high school came out right when I started high school. And I. Remember it very clearly we used to I was still in elementary school. Sure. Sure you're. We used to we were in drama together high school drama. And I believe we were in the show carousel around this time. And I played the star maker the guy who essentially he was a god type but they made him a folksy and he was hanging stars when billy gets to what was his name Billy bathgate no billy Batson no Zam Billy Gate. Dino. Billy. Bathgate the Dustin Hoffman movie. Yeah the gangster yeah. his name was billy. bub-bubba Billy Porter. That's that dude who's saying that kick ass version of what was it What's going on billy bigelow nearly bigalow billy bigelow. In any case. So so John and I were both in the show and we would hang out In the parking lot. After school either either after drama or waiting for drama to start, we would hang out in his yet a firebird. He had a trans am firebird guy. And We would hang out listening to albums in his car and I just have a very, very vivid memory of listening to this record. In the Cypress high school parking lot. Super. Loud and just memorizing all of these songs. and. Going Oh, my God, I got to see this movie. This is a movie. Okay. I got to see this movie somehow. and. and. I have your co hosting style is like essentially waiting for me to finish talking and then adding a word is that is, does that encapsulate? Yeah, I guess. So I mean I guess the only question I could ask at that point of the story would be. So did you see the movie or or did you not see the movie? His I personally did not the movie till. Way later because. For whatever reason I think if you're in I, I was just at the age were going to a concert movie felt like I wasn't sure what that was like I was eleven or twelve I don't know if I was going to see but didn't you go to the US festival and all that kind of at eleven and twelve. Yeah like even younger, but that was like with my parents because. Might step mom had a job to do there and but this was an album the whole family loved they didn't take you to the Moon I. I think what I'm thinking of is the couple of years after this came out and it was huge everywhere. But as far as the movie goes, I, didn't see it till it came out on VHS like really two years later something Oh. Okay. No I I saw the movie but but way after like the movie percolated for such a long time, they basically put it into just a few theaters around the country and then let it really play for like a year a year or two. SORT, of like A. A cult film in a way that you know you could come back to and rewatch several times over the course of the year nutting these as movies they come out and. They're gone into weeks for the most part and list they're huge hits, and if it were to come out now, that's probably what would happen although if it were to come out now, maybe no-one would go see it because you know theaters aren't open. But no, I saw I saw a year later in Hermosa beach we had to drive all the way up from orange, county to Hermosa beach because it was the only place playing. And the only time I had ever spent in Hermosa Beach, I, remember I took a an overnight church trip. To Hermosa beach too. I don't someone at our. Church. Had a beach house or something or had access to a beach house of our entire like junior high. Church group came up and spent an overnight trip where I remember like hanging out on the roof of this beach house, and then the only other weird thing I remember about is I went to the local store and they had a copy of Alpha flight twelve, the comic book there and I was I was very excited because it was an oversized issue and it said someone was going to die in the in the in the issue and so I took it I'm on this trip and I took it back and just so solo silently read it alone. And Guardian died spoiler alert but dies in Alpha flight twelve in any case. So that was my only experience with Hermosa Beach. So it was what Social Butterfly you, what an experience coming back to the town where I had bought Alpha flight twelve. To, watch a movie not three years later. I think my friend John and I were maybe one of five people in the audience. This was like a year after it came out. It was like nineteen eighty-six. Definitely we I was a sophomore at this point and it was like, okay enough fucking around we got to see this movie. Hey, it's playing. It's going to be a bit of a trip. But you know pack a bag put on a pot of coffee get some snacks. Sure. But we did it and I gotTa tell you. The race to get home in time for curfew after that movie. That's another story talk about fast and furious. Franchise Fast Times at Cypress High. The little more very like. But yeah. The movie I feel like we're dipping in Isla films here I believe we are. Films Welcome to it, and this is Scott and this got. Inter over this episode. Welcome to it. And we're talking about great films here. We're talking about sorry Scott I'm sorry to jump in. We're talking about great films we are not talking about. No I'm I'm just joining in your reverie of what we do here, which is we talk about great. Films. That's right. So if you WANNA come to us and say like, Hey, why don't you cover transformers rise of the stupid Bumblebee Look. Show wrong show. Yeah. We've seen it. Yes we love it. Is it my favorite film of that year. Probably absolutely. Absolutely. It's great. It was able to stay awake during it unlike most of the shit that we cover on this show. Yeah this is a fucking explosions I did as like an amphetamine I dare you to try to sleep through transformers rise the Bumblebee love it. But instead we're covering shit like apocalypse now too long as far as I'm concerned Godfather Three Hours Godfather other to three and a half hours. They could easily cut those down ten fifty minutes. Totally nothing happens in them. Now, a bunch of people. Each Other. No. Shut the door K. shut the door. Grab the CANNOLI and. Shove it up my but like stuff like that and I'm like A. Can. Can can a can an alien robot please come and decimate every single one of these characters just storch bug everything turned scorched earth ashes kill me while you're at it. Please because I don't want to spend another fucking second watching this terrible terrible. Can't dig it film film film. What just let it burn Let all of society burn as I'm concerned. You know. Lebron it all down. At this point. You know what I mean right what what what what good is it you know follow the Roman Empire. It's pointless. It's all fucking pointless. It's over. All right next week we're talking about raging bull. We'll see then by they. That was an interesting episode interesting as far as the Canon of ISLA, films goes that was It seemed like a turning point for them. You know what I was expecting with that episode I thought they were GONNA be talking about stop making sense the fell. That they took. A. Different route yeah. A little detour and sometimes that can work out. I mean. You know just today I was driving somewhere and Tried to get on that have hey, Adam, you ever tried to get on the freeway. You know what you use one of those what are you use and on ramp? Yeah and the one that I was trying to get on guess what happened I don't know closed. Did that yesterday Near Universal I was actually. Yeah. So you know what I'm talking about over on Violin does that is that the one I always going to healthy spots, drop my dogs off to you're taking a shit. Dogs off. So, what am I doing I'm driving around driving around drought. Surface streets. He just looking for Shit. Finally I just pull over the by the side of the road. Anyway. Stop. Making Sense. Definitely listen to the albums. So many times before I saw the movie that the what I didn't know is. That there are nine songs on the album. It's about forty, no forty minutes thirty, nine minutes and thirty seven seconds LP and I guess I'd assumed that the movie would have to be longer but I didn't realize that there'd be more songs that weren't on the record and I also didn't know that they cut these. Down the record edited parts out. So when I saw the movie I, remember. Psycho killer starts, which is the first song on both the record and the movie, and suddenly in the middle of it, there's a big long section where the the breaks, the big breaks and David Byrne his dancing around and I was I was thrilled. Yeah I'm wondering. Because I was looking. To It's not available on Apple. Music. Certainly, which is the original version of stop making sense. I have it right here. How did you get that? Is it just? Did you just rip it from your CD or something Yeah Oh we can't get into the this discussion again Adam about why you're listening to apple music is is totally inferior to what I do but yes, I have the original version of stuff I do. It's how everyone agrees. Yes, because that's the stop making sense I used to have was, yes. They've taken it down off of streaming services. So you need to have your old CDs. Love all the extra songs now but sure love I. also I love Yeah, I love the shorter versions too. Yeah. So do you want to hear a little bit of a psycho killer? So can hear exactly what we're talking about. This is the first track on the original LP. This is psycho killer. Plays so Camping. Circle. Look. Yeah. Now, when I first heard this, I don't think I was sophisticated enough. Listener to know. That this wasn't the whole band like I I did know what like electronic drums were because my friend? Actually my friend Scott Camera had a an eight, hundred, eight drum machine that we fuck around with and we I remember. Around. This time we made. We made a tape for our friends. For her birthday of us like doing songs for her using data weight and it was so good. That we eventually asked for the tape back and we were like, Hey, can we borrow are taped back because we we were just like, why did we ever give her that tape? It was so good. So I knew what a drum machine was but I, I. I'd not knowing who the talking heads were really all that much i. just kind of thought. This was a full band performance so when you see the movie Mister Burns is essentially he he it starts very close on his feet and pans up and he walks out onstage totally alone with the house lights up with a big boom box or as what we used to call a ghetto blaster, which is probably very insensitive at the time Perk God. Yeah. That's great. Not Good. And he puts it down in plays along with what he says is a tape, but obviously the sound people in the back triggered. So do you like this version of psycho killer better than the original? I do. It's interesting though because the. This version which doesn't have those breaks in it is the same length as the one with the brakes. I think it's because they have maybe more crowd noise or something. On this, let's hear. Let's hear the job. I prefer this to the one with the I. Think the brakes are great for the movie but. Like I think I think what they did with this record, trimming the songs down and and and turning it into a forty minute record because of the constraints of vinyl. These became iconic versions of these songs us, I mean. Especially, the ones that we just covered on speaking in tongues. Yeah. they they're sort of they just become transcendent and then things like life during wartime and take me to the river I mean with the addition of the band I mean they just become you know transcended and what a day that was, which was sort of a is just a David Byrne song that diversion is just incredible. Incredible. So so let's talk about how this this came to be. So talking heads in when we last left them. They were they were doing there speaking in tongues tour and they had additional players during it. They had, of course, the Great Bernie were L. from P funk and Alex. we're Steve Scales and then they had a sort of a rotating crew of backing vocals. What ended up being in the movie was Edna Holt and Lynn mayberry. And? They had been doing this tour and on one of their stops here at the Greek. young filmmaker named Jonathan Demme. Came to see them and loved the show and said Hey I wanNA film. So it wasn't the band technically like Oh, we got to film this as much as it was Jonathan Demme just like happened to see them and said, Oh, this should be a movie. And? came up to them and said Hey. Can we make a movie out of this and they? They said Okay but the the interesting thing about this Adams is they financed it themselves great. So they. Technically what they did was it cost eight hundred thousand dollars to start with they borrowed that against their future royalties from the record company. So. Rather than having the record company pay for it and thus. Don't offer. They don't get any any of the profits from it that way, but it wasn't like they had a million dollars and said, okay, here you go. You know yeah. Run Wild with that they had to borrow it. which turned out to be you know a great business decision for them because everything was. Essential Iran, I believe it's their top selling record I believe will creature. Biggest studio album, right but this one's like. It was definitely the biggest at the time I'm not quite sure. If if it ended up being. But yes. So they decided to film this this show that they'd been doing even though they just put out a live record. And Yeah, they had like two years prior. Yeah. Which is, which is a weird thing to do. But everyone just thought like, no, this show is too good. Essentially what they've been doing with the show was A. Mr Burns, he had seen an artist by the name of Robert Wilson put on some theatrical performances and so he he's sort of borrowed or got inspired by Robert. Wilson. For the sets. And the lights rum, and then he had this idea to come out in a big suit. Midway through the show which sort of inspired by Kabuki theatre and no theater in Japan where everyone was wearing like big exaggerated costumes and he thought to himself like, okay. That would be cool to come out in like a big no Kabuki costume but it's businessman suit right now the big suit. Adam. That was I mean that was anyone talked about for a long time Oh and it just the the fashion of was ripped off not ripped off but inspired so much in in fashion for years to Gone Oh. Yeah. The big shoulder pads I don't know whether they would have necessarily. You know I, mean. That is an interesting question. Do you think like all of those late eighties working girl type fashioned with like you know suits and big shoulder pads if that would have happened without stop making sense? That was happening already but this kind of made it cool. In an interesting brought it to a different level well I remember. Another thing that cemented talking heads is like, okay, this is a band you need to pay attention to was not only my friend John had the record and we would play it all the time. But Rich Hall imitated David Byrne, Mister Burns on Saturday night live, and that was The season I got really into Saturday night live because I had never been old enough to watch it. I always had to sneak around to watch it or I watched reruns on. Kate. KTLA here. But this, this was the first year that I literally watched Saturday night live every episode when it was on and the Billy Crystal Year and guest year and Harry Shearer and Martin Short and rich hall he was like I Music Way Glitz. Snippets. Yes. It and it was it was at deep bench just the fact that rich hall who super talented was like you know tenth. In line or whatever. But he he did a sketch where he imitated David Byrne and did all the movements the chopping on the arm movements that he once in a lifetime video which had seen before. And that really cemented like okay this is culturally important. Yeah. Who is pretty incredible I it permeated everything there for a few years I remember even that that. Fans of all of my shows know that in high school I was doing lip sync contests and I was doing. Dressing up in homecoming parades and I. There's a famous picture of me it. I mean famous I am which is not very of me dresses peewee Herman when I'm fourteen years old for one of the homecoming shows but dressed up as David Byrne once, and I got like the biggest suit that my dad had who was bigger than me at the time and it was it was big on me and so I was super skinny and so and I learned I slipped my hair back and I did all the movements that I saw and I hadn't even seen the movie at this point but but I saw rich hall, do its I basically like imitated him doing it. Yeah. That's hilarious. So you're like imitating rich rich all who is imitating yes, that's and that's what that's what a lot of Comedians I think start out doing like imitating their favorite comedians and then they find find their own voice. I'm still waiting for the second part of. That equation. Just kind of rich all. So, in any case, they filmed this at the pantages theater down the street from us. Here in Hollywood and They did it over four nights I think they had to go back to the record company and ask for another like three hundred grand because they want to do a fourth night. And a couple things of interest happened during this. So Jonathan Demme was talking about how they had to cut down the show because the normal concert you would go see. Two hours and fifteen minutes long. And it had songs like the one from the Catherine wheel the. Song was Blue Plymouth. And it had like all the it had. A full a full concert. Yeah. So they had to cut it down. So they cut it down to essentially. Probably, about ninety minutes and even then all the songs didn't get into the final film, but there was one part where. MR, Burns had to change into the suit. and. They needed something to happen during it and so Jonathan Demme said to Tina like hey, I want you guys to play the Tom Tom Club song that's such a big hit and teen according to Tina. She was not thrilled about it and she was like, no that's our own thing. We don't want to play it but then Chris farts over there Tuten? Away. He's Cutting cheese. Let's speaking of cutting the cheese I gotta hear that wikipedia pronunciation. From, one of our previous episodes, let's hear. Let's go to the WIKIPEDIA. Cutting the cheese here it is already. What where do we hear real we? Do it. Let's hear it again. Let's hear a one more to strip. Surely it would be funny a second time wouldn't it? Really is I wonder how it would be for the third time I will never know. But so anyway, Chris farts he. He. He says the Tina. We should play we should play it. So they play in the middle of the concert they play genius of love the big. Tom Tom. Club hit. Under with the understanding that Jonathan Demme would not put it in the film that was the deal they made with him. Why? Why? Why were they so uptight about this being in the movie I don't understand I think because they they were looking for their own identity a little bit and they were like they didn't want A. Backup band talking heads yeah they didn't even want their solo stuff to become like sort of submissive David. Byrne. Stuff. You know what I mean. So they wanted it to be its own thing. So then the other really weird part about that. Is that. Tina. Says while okay. Well, what about my sisters because they all sit together on the record? We we want them to sing it with us right and Jonathan Demme said like. We want the backup singers the singer with you because your sisters aren't used to singing in with such a big crowd they'll be out of tune you know like these are professionals. Let's make sure. So then when they're filming it, Tina sisters come to the second night. And she's forgotten to tell them that they're doing genius of love. and this is okay. So this is a quote from David. Bowman's book. This must be the place. On the second or third night. Tina. Sisters were in the audience. She hadn't had a chance to warn them about genius of love. which were her it's like you had a chance. I'd also like. Why does that matter because they sang back on the album's they're part of the band I. Think. They used to tour with with Tom Club as well. When Tina took the stage without them, the to weymouth girls were enraged. This caused a family rift among the weymouth girls that made the discord among the bloody lear sisters. That's King Lear no boy look like something out of the family circus comic strip who wrote this tape it Thomann first of all David, Bobin you don't need to barred splaine King Lear to me or. Family family circus. Like if anything explain what you mean about family circus because from what I remember, there wasn't a lot of family discord in the family circus. I mean occasionally that's part of the point is that he's saying it makes King Lear look as conflict free as family sir. No, he's saying he's saying this is literally the quote it made the discord among the sisters look like something out of family circus. Right, the the discord among the lear sisters look like something out of the family circus. Okay. You don't need to explain this either at him. But. Why did it? Why do we? That? BIG OF A deal? I didn't need just say like. The weymouth family makes the Manson family looked like the addams family there. Okay. We all get that. That makes sense. There is. I was watching the L. A. confidential. That's good writing. I was watching the La confidential DVD when it came out and there was a an interview with the guy who wrote it James Elroy the guy wrote the novel. and. He He. Is Up a joke with such relish like it's the best joke of all time listeners of this show will relate and. He goes. So L. A. confidential it's God murder. It's got rape. It's got blackmail. Yeah. A real family film? If you're fucking family is the fucking Manson family. Boy. He punched it up by saying fucking at it. Was I, think that's a that's hilarious as James elroy gets. Did you ever read my dark glazes? The his like I've never read any of his books now So funny. It's hilarious. It's way he's great. He's good, God. Good God. So. Yeah golly. Miss Molly. What's Weird about this David Bowen Book they never follow up on this. You never get any closer with it like what are you talking about if he's not going to provide context like oh? Yeah. They made up or maybe they're still mad at each other. Hey, if you're one of if you're one of those Amo sisters right in until if you're still mad but why was it so vicious like what happened like ever go even go into it he he never goes into it I read. Chris. Farkas. Book. Chris Farts, of course. We. We have to play that every single night. But. I. Read His book to try to see if there was any kind of. Closure on it, he never brings it up. So who knows if it's true whose book? The book by this Dude, his name is Chris. So yeah. I I I have no idea whether it's true or not. But. Apparently Tina was mad when she saw the premiere, not the premiere of the movie but the ban must've been invited to it before the premiere and she saw the completed movie and the the Tom Tom Club song was still in there and she got really mad. At Jonathan Demme and Jonathan Demme just kind of went like well yeah, it's staying in. and that was it. So and then you're the only thing Chris says about it in his book. Is that he wishes he wasn't talking or he wishes he wasn't shouting all the time song. Because At. One point he says. I remember thinking it was cool that the Tonton was in there when I saw the movie like when I lower level know something when I saw the movie, I was thunderstruck because I did not realize that talking heads Ren listening to for a year at this point that the people behind talking heads had done the genius of love songs. So I was like immediately, it made the genius of Logs Love Song. which was a hit that I knew from being played on the radio like it immediately sort of like made it like Oh, wow, this is an important song that I got it. So it made me go get the Tom Tom, club record and all that. So I thought it was a good a good part of the movie but let's let's hear a little bit of Chris shouting during the Jimmy Johnson. While he's he's talking a lot. Is that. That's him. We doing atmosphere original. Not Really. Good. The. Girls. He gets even more towards the end. Let's we had pretty probably pretty copious. Well, that is something that we. Should talk about because he does talk about it in his book. He says that all of the men in the band were. Incredibly coked up during the filming of the. Of the of the movie well, watching the movie now which I watched a few weeks ago. First of all this move is like. Pure joy on screen. It's javelin having such a good time. The audiences having a good time you're us. It's incredible. But you can also look at an just assume that they are all just coked out of their brains. Chris says none of the women on stage were it was all just like every Every one of the men were. Tracks, well, he also in this David Bowman book, they talk about how the other reason that they did. The Tom Tom Club Song is because Mr Burns. Would not only change into his big suit, but he needed to take a coke break and he would say time for my big suit and my little toot. My. God. Really. Yes so I don't know if that's true but that's in the book and the book is based on interviews I guess but exude and my little. Other. Things that happened when they were on tour with this Chris tells a funny story about how they're all on the plane and and Bernie were l. they didn't think he was on the plane with them, and so they had one of the the guys run out in, go to the airport bar to go find him and they they grabbed him at the last minute and drag him on the plane and then when they look at him, everyone's like do that isn't Bernie that's Ray Charles. Are you serious Book. I don't remember that at all. That's in there and it's like they were blind and not like Ray Charles just like. All right I'll go wherever anyone leads me to go but. Yes so that that was interesting at this, the DP of bladerunner did this. Jordan. With And then Sandy McLeod was I guess the visual consultant but Chris Talks about how demi was fighting with Goldie Hawn about swing shift during this period. So he didn't even show up to a lot of the performances that they filmed. Planned it all out and let Sandy. Actually. Is a according to Chris? We don't did you ever see swing shift I have never seen it? Have you seen? No, it's weird that Jonathan Demme directed. I don't really think of it as one of his movies. So he did a couple of Roger Corman films that were cheapo exploitation films, and then he did mill in Howard. Was An indie film and was great and then Soon Virgin WanNa Oscar Hamel she's great to do you know about her I don't think it's an accident but her what's going on with her brain now where she hears everything in music, you know what I I know a little bit about this I didn't know that was like. What does she say about you? Well, she she's gotten an Oscar nomination for best song for a movie because of it because she now here's like everything as music. Yeah, and so she's writing songs constantly because of it and she's written so many songs that she there was this song I forget what movie was four but it was a movie with a bunch of music and they were looking for songwriters to submit songs and she wrote this song incentive to them and they used it and it got an Oscar nomination in. No I even know about that's the I forget exactly what the medical term for it is but a few people have it and she it just kind of happened I forget exactly how well I. think that that had just started happening to her when we were doing stepbrothers because she was talking about it and But it was a fresh thing that she was trying to explain and she had just started like getting into music a little bit because of this thing that was happening and it was yeah the most interesting. There, if you can read an article about it because it's fascinating and it's one of those. Kind of things, I I in our sister show you talking Huey to me we talked to Huey Lewis about his challenges with. With his hearing changing but it's one of those like interesting. You know challenges that she went through and she's you know sort of incorporated into your life in a really fascinating. Really Cool. Let's say anything. She's very cool. I think she elevates anything she's ever in I would watch her do anything anyway. What I what I was GONNA say about swing shift is that. Demi got offered mainstream movies after that. So he took swing shift which starred Goldie Hawn. and. He directed kind of like an Indie film and when he turned it in Goldie. Hawn hated it I guess and made made him re-shoot every single one of her scenes Yeah So I've never seen it but he was going through that while stop making sense as being filmed and honestly like stomach census the thing that catapulted into like. Being. The. Yeah. A i. definitely saw something wild when it came out a couple years later because. So yeah, it was the director of stop making sense it was. Just the best. Terrific. Yeah. Anything. Else you WANNA say about stop making sense I mean we could listen to some of the other songs if you want is is there one that you? I think. The this version of this must be the place which didn't. Was In the movie, not the album until much later is I love this version. Let's hear a little bit of this must be the Place Aka naive melody. Like they really change these. Everything just feels more full and. Warm. And Joyce. In coach. Always hoping that was coming. Yeah there it is this great. Spring, well, listen listen to the backup singers just so. We also play what a day that was because we play during we played when we covered the solo records and it's kind of cold on. on record, but it's an incredible version. Yes. One of my favorites on that versus. kind of as a life during wartime feel yeah and I like this version of light bulb during the most scary. I mean these are all. Great. Won't. After. Yeah. I mean. The. The addition of the backing singers with this. Just you know it makes it church in a way. Yeah. So it's this great combination of like. Almost Gospel with. New. Wave Music that just you know and this was our introduction to talking heads. So it's like. Going backwards and hearing their earlier albums that are a little more cold is is definitely an interesting experience when this is what you think talking heads is this this group of people you know and this life during wartime to it's like a it's loosening it up and tightening it up at the same time like it's expanding it but tightening it it's it's really weird but I feel like this life during wartime is the definitive one it just feels yeah so much more alive but also hear a little bit of swamp because you've got you've got. Good, old. Steve Scales shouting over it a lot which. Is. Really. Funny. This is what Donald Trump got us out. You drained it. By the way. THAT FIRST PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE Nine didn't let him finish. That's what I thought do. Serious. God's. Whole. Southern Bosa. Beauties. Yeah he does that all throughout the just adding like. Those So. Good. Just a great great record in either form. If you can only, if you only have like forty or forty five minutes to listen to an album though. Check out the originals, CD versus the original CD is forty six minutes. The original L. P. is forty minutes. And It just encapsulates everything that talking heads is all about and the movie I mean it's on see on Amazon it's Amazon. You can buy it on. itunes. Oh is it for free on Amazon prime or whatever just check it out it's just one of the. If not the best concert film of All time although you know Mr Burns has his American utopia coming out next week so. Yeah. So we'll see how that stacks up. But one thing that I want to before we go to break because we we have a big show. We have a George Harrison coming up on the show to talk. One thing that I wanted to play since we're talking about this period of talking heads. A lot of people cintas this clip and I want to play. This is maybe one of the best versions of burning down the house best cover versions that I've ever heard. So. Just want to play this. So here we go. Tool time I and for the last time, Tim the toolman tailor. Of course, you all know by citizens lv doing infomercials for a living borland. Nice show last show of course, we all hope to be on to bigger and better things matter of fact, Al Here's getting married this weekend. Great last show for today. Third. Benford wants to intentionally overload household out like this thereby starting a fire and burning the entire set down instead I'm gonNA show you the right way to do this. Folks. Just, get a surge protector. Bad everybody. That can't be the end is the last show I know what you're thinking last tool time just plug it in the toaster come on. Aren't you gonNA lightning on fire of course, relies on fire in a burn this place down baby with everybody that helped us build it. These diehard fans dropping doing to be on this last tool time with us. That's have a warm tool time. Welcome for America's favorite all tool. Bad. Boy. Shifa, and people ought to of. All move, the all tour band is this the last episode or something? This is the final episode of of Home Improvement, which by the way I dish it for this episode and so here's what happened. The I got word that I had a last minute audition over it s Radford where they filmed home improvement and. It was last minute because they needed someone really good to step into this role of like the TV network person who canceled the show and I think they had fired the person that they had before. So they need someone super last minute. So it was they were like we're only bringing three people in. And whoever gets it has to immediately go from the audition and film it right. So three of us go into the. Waiting. Room. Okay and it's all three of us and we're we're we're talking to each other and we're like so it's GonNa. Be One of us like one of us has to go do this thing and you're like how well you know good luck. Come Rotary Nice auditioning this is before I'm offer only of course. And you know Adam of course that I'm offer only in along with that comes caveats of I will not learn lines. I will not sign a release for the production so you'll have to blurred me out. On, this until I start getting paid so don't expect me to be prepared I need stacks and stacks. Just, even before I start even thinking about the role. But in any case, so me and me into other guys that are in the waiting room and they bring in the first guy. and. You can hear him doing the lines in the other room and then they say okay by the way, everyone is going to have to come back here and wait until we decide who's who's got it. So the first guy comes back and he finishes his audition he sits back down in the waiting room I'm third right they bring in the second guy, you hear him doing his audition. He never comes back to the waiting room. He. I guess just went immediately to the set from from there. It was almost as if he had like a giant giant trapdoor up in the middle of the floor. Just like deposited at the set. And so the woman auditioning comes back out for me. He's like, okay. You ready in I'm going like why bother you've already taken that guy to go but I went and did it and of course. They bring me back to the waiting room. They come back and tell the two of us that neither of US got. Awful, and what was the part you remember is it and it was sequence. It's not we won't hear it, but it's the network executive who cancelled the show. So I think I watched it to see how it turned out, but I don't remember anyway we're getting to the burning down the house cover. Here it is. All through. The studio audience. Because he was a fake TV show dot the drummer by the way is the guy who played one of the drug dealers unjustified needs great injustice and was in a pilot that I did Ninety six forget his name he passed away. Great great actor. Here we go. I. I'm glad you're white your. Third. Is the gentleman. Master sparky. PODCAST PARKING Is On this show my don. Shaw. We'll get all these white people. I'LL NOPE He's only the fifteenth person onstage. Mario. Andretti the race car driver is pretending to. Pretending. To turn steering wheel. Opening, and closing in on. Could actually light anything on fire. I don't know this is so depressing. This is up there with Chevy Chase and Goldie Hawn singing. Happy. Oh. Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good clap. What's better the parks and REC finale this. Toss up Oh my God they said something. And then immediately, the fire marshals come put it out. I mean, what is the? What are they saying I mean this is. Yeah. The anyway, thank you to our to our listeners for sending us that can't make sure they let them. Do they. Let them gave them the rights I mean they must pay them so much money. But incredible Lord All right. We need to take a break. This is exciting out of when we come back George Harrison. A beetle is going to be on this show do feel the parks and rec finale as far better than that. Just to just to be one hundred percent clear. Well, let's agree to disagree we will be right back with more you talking talking heads to might talking head with George Harrison. Himself will be here right after this, we'll be right back. Now Back. Talking. Talking ahead. And we have A. Great big important guest coming up a member of talking heads will be with us but I wanted to say during the break Adam something happened with your recording there at home your computer crashed and you're unable to keep recording your own vocals but we have the zoom vocals here. But people will notice a little bit of a difference as I write. All Sound Shitty. But that's okay. I mean people are look people are not listening to the show for you. Let's just drew nor for the quality of my voice no, and they're not even listening for me. They're listening because we have a great big important guest coming up and I am so excited about this I mean we'll. We've had special guests over the years have we we have and I just have to say I'm a little. Blown away that we're that we have by this particular guest here, this particular guest we've we've on our sister shows. We've had let's countdown. We had U2 on Utah new to me. They appeared on the show we had three quarters of the members of Ram on are you talking Rem Romy? Huey, Lewis on Yui Talking Huey to me. And we had todd glass on stained glass. Most important. Importantly, glass. So we knew when we did this show, we were hoping against hope that one of the members at least of talking heads would join us and. This is very excited because with the minute we started doing the show we got a message that our guest is was excited to appear on it and it is our pleasure to introduce him he has been. I mean, let's list his bands that he. has appeared in. Okay. We have first of all. The lovable ads from Liverpool the Beatles this is men to before the. Beatles, we have and the silver beetles, of course as well. Silver Beetles have. Maybe even better than the Beatles. The traveling will berries I mean that's one of my favorites. One of my incredible it's a suit. supergroup they call traveling. That's right and then somehow inbetween those bands, the Beatles and traveling bilberries he fit in being in talking heads. This is so exciting. Please welcome George Harrison Hello George Oh it's so nice to be here I mean let's not forget that the modern lovers was another project slipped in there to modern. Thank God that is so the MoD modern lovers Beatles traveling will bury. So that's. The silver, beetles. And I had this problem in the modern lovers is that they wouldn't let me do my sweet Lord. It was it was well, it was the coffee right? Just didn't fit with the kind of punk sound. On the pseudonym of Jerry Harrison at that point and I really use that and talking heads that's and then went back for traveling. We'll, of course. Well this is incredible I mean to have guest your stature on this. Show is just such an honor to to have you. For us and welcome to the show I wanted to say that how's your has your quarantine going? It's going pretty well I'm fortunate enough to live where there's. Fabulous hiking right across the street from me. So I could get exercise very easily and pretty places where he is not that crowded where do you live? Mount Everest Well, I live in Marin County across the Golden Gate Bridge. Okay I live sort of across the street from Mira Woods. Pastic I grew up right down below you in. Santa Cruz. Could another beautiful location? Yeah. Is this an episode of beautiful locations? I believe. Everyone welcome to you. Beautiful locations. This is Scott and this has got and we have very special guests on beautiful locations. Today we have George. Quote Jerry Unquote Harrison and we're talking beautiful locations what Jerry you've been all around the world you traveled Europe with the ramones. What is the most beautiful location you've ever seen? There's sort of spectacular beauty and then there's charming beauty I. Mean I think the coast of Italy. Of the towns like Portofino and. Positano Ravello are certainly in the the most amazing and then I would say for spectacular beauty sort of. Really. Here in California some of the National Parks and ocean views I mean. I've been a lot of places that are beautiful on. Japan incredibly beautiful and you know then cityscapes like parents or Amsterdam just. Completely. Capped. Pay You textbook episode of. What was the name of this show? Okay, we'll see you next time. Thanks. Bye Bye. That was a good episode. Oh. Yeah. That was great. We got a nice kind of trip around the world trip around the world. Amazing, right. Jerry so Of course, we're talking about stop making sense in this episode, but we we want to expand a little bit and talk. About your entire career especially with talking heads. So so many questions come to mind in adamant I have been talking for the past couple of weeks when we learned that you would be on the show about what are we going to ask Jerry? WHAT ARE WE GONNA ask Jerry We've been emailing back and forth. Okay. You ask him this I'll ask him this in really the the the one thing that was kind of paramount on her minds was. We really wanted to ask. When did you first hear of talking heads? It was. I believe reading about them in in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, five. I was living, in Cambridge Post Modern. Lovers. And working for a software development company. Called Cambridge Computer and then I met them. In the summer of a nineteen, seventy six. And fortunately. They the modern lovers record that had been recorded in nineteen, seventy two came out in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, six, and in some ways was. A blueprint, but also very embraced by the kind of developing punk scene because it's We in the modern lovers we wanted to stand in contrast to. What I would call mannerist rock and roll, which is a lot of progressive rock include in that. which was all about bombast and having learned to play in the academy incredible Technique on your instruments but sometimes. Ridiculous lyrics based on an old. English. Myths in the Lord of the Rings and Lord of the Rings and things like how many how many songs have you written about the Lord of the Rings would you say? In. Total none none because I am I sort of I thought swamp could have been about the Lord of the rings especially like where they meet Ghalem. Well, I hadn't thought of that possibly. So that had just come out and so and was very successful record, and so is the story basically that they were looking to expand their the three piece lineup with the keyboardist and they were asking around. Yes. Someone mentioned you, right. That's right I. I know that Steve Paul. Who had had the famous club in in New York St Paul Scene, which is. A. WAS A. Mid Sixties Club where. FAMOUS JAM session with Jimi Hendrix Clapton and Jeff Beck took place and. Various other. People that happen to be in town, actually the engineer I work with. E. T. Thorn Granada. Band. bulldog and Jimi Hendrix came in jammed with his band Steve. Et Thunder, and by the way is that because of the movie is at Its. While he has one nickname he calls a extra testicle. Why? Also says every time. And I think he said it was sort of he always delivers. So when you join talking heads I I know you mentioned that that modern lovers kind of broke up because Jonathan wanted to go in another direction with his performing the the story sort of say the you were pretty reticent to start another band or join another band because of your experience with modern lovers is that safe to say? It's it's safe to say that I was I had sort of made the switch in my mind that I was going to do something different than I was just entering. Architectures. Cool when I met the talking heads. And and I kinda thought I'd better go to school while I still have. A little bit of. That not so far away when I was an undergraduate. And so just as I was starting so they were very, very nice to let me do a semester in a way of kind of over that semester it became concrete that I would join. I went down to the first rehearsal I had with that was them was in the summer of seventy six. And they were living down in the Lofton Christie Street where. I have to say at someone freaked me out mean I spent quite a bit of time in New York. In both in college but also in the modern lovers and. But Y- being unlocked where you had to go out into a black dark hall to go to the bathroom where you had no idea who is there in the middle of the night was a little unnerving and there was no on sweet. This was Swede bathroom and there was like a bullet hole in the window where of stray bullets. Through. So It set the stage for. And actually, I showed up vercel because the only way I could get there. I had really I. Spent a lot of money on the modern lovers that we never really got our advance from Warner brothers so I was really broke and I. Ended up moving of to get the New York to do the rehearsal, I had to help Ernie Brooks from the modern lovers. Did we had the band van we? Moved a family to New York and when we finished packing the the van, there was no room for my keyboard. So I just showed up with the guitar they go looking for a keyboard player and I said Oh i, do that too but. All I can fit in the van was Qatar player but because. His like the flattest instrument that there is, why couldn't it fit like you could you could you put it above your head or some of the newer ones had fed this was a little bit bulkier couldn't couldn't figure out. Yeah. So you start with with talking heads and there also is a story that you you told them you didn't want to join. Until they had a record contract is that correct as well? I don't recall that specifically being A. Barrier. I saw that that happened while I was doing this first semester at at Harvard, Graduate School of design. and. I was in the process of like am I willing to just give the I gotta give it up again okay. I'm going to go back to music and became pretty We played the show at the rats Keller those no question in my mind this was what I wanted to do what was it about the band that you you just really intrigued you and made you. Shy away from a very promising architectural career. It was that I knew they were entirely unique and there was nothing in the world like them I mean, it was really the same thing that. Brought me to the to the modern lovers. So I was playing music all through college. But still thinking that probably wouldn't be career and then Jonathan came into earning my apartment and I was making a film about alienated and I decided to put him in it. Short film or a feature or no it was a little documentary for a documentary film Class I was making because they made a movie called alienation with Mandy. Patinkin I believe the came out so you didn't make that. That was much later. That they stole my idea. Obviously. And I started listening to this music that I'd recorded Jonathan and him talking and he started hanging around and just as certain point is like there's nothing in the world like this. So I had the same feeling when I met talking heads and then when I played with them, it was so apparent that we had sympathetic views on. Austerity about parts and not getting not stepping on each other's toes in. I think one of the things that made me appeal to them as that other keyboard players when they had tried out. Spend a Lotta time to try and show how. Good, they were at their instrument which caused them to play. Long Solos are to complicated parts. Whereas when I started playing with them and this, also to come from playing guitar I, which has less. Love. Spent much more time playing keyboard with much more facility on it, and I just watch what I would look at it. What David was Klay and listened to and listened to what Tina was clang and I would come up with a sometimes a hybrid of something they were doing that reinforced whatever was going on. And it's so they're sounded feel like Oh my God is calling off to left. Feel it's. This is this is just us but a little bigger and fuller it's still sounds like us. So you guys put out Obviously, you weren't on the first single, but you're on the first record talking had seventy seven and I heard you talking about how one of the things that made talking had such a success was the fact that You guys didn't spend any money, which is which is really interesting because most bands when they get the advance, you know start blowing on limos and coke and right doing naughty things with Naughty Naughty? Women. And maybe you guys did that too. But you're more frugal about it. We were very, very frugal Tina was road manager when I joined the band and after a year or two I took over and was the road manager. And we because you wanted to spend less money than she was spending. No it was just I was willing maybe she was tired of it or I railed you this. You're actually willing to do the boring and but it meant that we didn't have anybody traveling with us. There was no one making a you know. We'd make the arrangements for the hotel and Get their ourselves. We didn't have any babysitters so to speak and we had only two crew. We had no lighting person. We would go into any place and say, please take the gels off aim them at where we are on the stage. When we walk on stage, turn them on when we walk off, turn them off. I remember having discussions with the union lighting at Radio City. Will. What about spots? I went we don't need spots and they go. Well, we have to pay them anyway I said, okay. Then have the put no gels just have them open it up and light the stage from the front and they go it is more efficient. We can have one due to I said, okay. Then have them all just light of the front of this age. So I think I got probably was the most minimal. Crew that radio station the city ever had for. What did you have against gels was it you'd seen other bands use colored gels or needle for the people listening that is the sort of colored self is it made of cellophane or? That you put in front of a light to sort of make make the spotlight have a different color on it. Or what did you have against them? I think we had against them was that unless you got to the point that it was designed and so integrated into show and you had a really expert lighting designer and operator. That, they always seem sometimes slightly out like when if you would go in and local light lighting person for the club. Did it. He was always a moment. He didn't know when you would change. So He. He off they neither do things just moving to the beat flashing lights or they. You know and it was always just looked unprofessional corny and you and you didn't want to pay for a guy to travel along with you who knew we? Had, we had to crew one person who makes the sound one who was on stage they set the news up. We traveled in the beginning in station wagon and they drove in a van. We just kept it simple and we did that all the way through the end of of bureau music. But that became part of our whole aesthetic. Didn't it became a part of what set you apart was this bright white light on all of you for for the show is so different from what everyone has been Anti anti-iraq in that and that. became part of yours that with way you address to with your sort of norm core. What we call now, which is just odd shirts. Yes. I would. It was part of our as. I mean you. You saw some things like this in the theater I mean coming from the things that were in black box theaters and. Theater of the absurd. where, there was a lack of artifice and it was sort of up to you wanted to see every facial reaction with everybody on stage and it was about the. I'm not going to try and cover it up in any way by the drama of the lighting. I think the one of the great things that happened with this is that. Every member of the talking heads. Drew had had a fan that particularly, let's say were drawn to them. David and Tina obviously had the most but Chris and I had people that were would watch US intently but you always had a ability to see what anybody was doing in the band at the same time, and so you really able to see the interplay. and. As great as I stop making centers, and of course, that's the focus of this. There were some times where it was weird where I'd go. Bernie and I are in the dark. And I, it's almost like you'd be playing and I'm going Bernie. What are you doing shower or something? Like you. took away your constant intensity at the audience right whereas I think I. think that when you felt so naked and just white light, there was just nothing but. Concentrating on the music replacing the people, the other musicians and the audience itself it's almost like a d elevating the idea rockstars like there. There's so much goes into rockstars of of their fashion and putting the right lights on them and making the making it seem like everyone's Iraq God. Guys we're trying to say like, Hey, no, we're just like you the audience well I think that that's something we shared with punk ethos. I think the punky those in general was. If I have something to say, I will find the means to say it and you out in the audience you could do this too I'm we're all just I'm just like you I just have the. Cotton. upstage and done this. I remember I'm sure the influence, a lot of the influence came from you guys. One of the most striking moments talking about a previous band we focused on in the U Tour like two thousand is when they start elevate. Oh. By, walking out on stage with all the house lights up and playing a full song right with any lighting and just playing is on them walkers from backstage to get onto the stage. It really was was like, Hey, there's no artifice here. This is just right. Well they had. They had done a they open for us a number of times and we're good friends with ours and. I think that they certainly absorbed us as one of the many influences for the. Yeah. Yeah. Sure as well as. You. As. Well we we need to take a break if that's okay J. Jerry we haven't even gotten to stop making sense. We have to get to stop making sense of course because that of course we're talking about when we come back, we are going to be. Continuing our conversation with George Aka. Jerry. Harrison we will be right back with more you talking talking heads to my talking head. After this, we'll be right back. Welcome back. You talk and talk talking heads mytalk and head. Adamant. I are here with the legendary. Some we you hear people. Called the Fifth Beatle. The. You're like the third beetle, which is incredible. Yes that's right. How many Fifth Beatles were there was Pete Best. There was Brian Epstein there was. Who Played a keyboard billy, Preston Billy. Preston. So many fifth. Beatles. But we're talking to one of the original four. Beatles here George Martin? Yes. Is George George Martin certainly considered was there anyone else you considered to be a fourth beetle or a fifth beatle now? I think I think We'll maybe Joe Johns wife but Oh. Yeah. You're. Really break up your band. Well I do well I. Think John became. Pretty. Infatuated and certainly distracted. Yeah. Boy Always GonNa ban so good it's almost worth it right. Sure about that but. I mean, after all I'M NOT GONNA I'M JOE NOT. Sure. But it allowed me to go out and play with Clapton and Delaney and you know that was really really food at. All those great. I mean those you know all those things and you know as well as gave me time to get more involved in my meditation and Hari Krishna Movement and. Just. Very important. What you know. You know the the John and George. John Paul was his name everyone everyone else had become sort of. You know when these kind of saw what they thought was Maharishi behaving badly they had just. Throw. Their. Hands the whole thing. But I still saw some value and they never totally got it anyway. No. You, had to have a quieter sold to be able to do. So we're talking of course about. Jerry's whole career with talking heads and beforehand and everything but the focus of this episode is stop making sense which When we asked you which album you'd like to cover. We heard stop making sense is is Pretty much what you want to talk about why is that? Partially because you just unfair of music, I think chosen that first but. I think that start making sense for many people. Is was. Sometimes their introduction talking heads it was mine mine mine as well. The people who were maybe a little younger or just had not. Penetrated and because it was a film. We actually succeeded in doing something that I was really trying wanted us to do with this film which was. Not replace but be an alternative to the rocky horror. Picture show. I wanted to be the mood of the film that. A theater could play every Saturday night. And people could come. and. So one of the things was so essential was not to have any talking in it. I have a jussie music. I heard you talking yeah. I heard you talking about that on the the DVD of stop making sense. But you didn't mention like which films did that a lot is that. which previous rock documentaries had a lot of talking over him that you can remember? Well, the one that really drove me crazy was the film about Jimi Hendrix where they would go into A. You know some of the other songs recorded at Monterey pop that's not featured in Monterey pop, which, of course, only wild thing. and. Then, they would cut back to people who had known Jimmy in high school. And I'm going. who gives a shit scare slightly interesting but like you just kind of short jumped as he was going to the best part of the Sola here's a here's a guy doing something. No one else in the world can do and let's talk to one of his buds. And and you see it in all this all of the documentary films that. They never let the songs. Play all the way through. Iowa I always feel that way about biographies of of people as well. Like We're usually reading a biography of someone because they've done extraordinary things Brian. When they start off with five chapters about their dumb life growing up time like who can. Get to the talking about when you were like doing these incredible things that I, the reason I bought it. So so you guys just wanted to do a movie that was just pure music that house right and. We we had a very visual show. And So we wanted to really just capture what we were doing. Jonathan thought that was a great idea this giant Danny, the Lane Jonathan. Yes and he Brought in a fabulous director of photography Jordan Krona. Worth. And he just enhanced what was already going on on stage every night. So this was the speaking in tongues tour that well, we had already done a tour for speaking in tongues. So this was a second tour designed with this. Kind of we ideas that we'd explored on the remain in light, and then particularly in the speaking in tongues tour. Of starting with a strip down psycho killer and people joining the joining the band in the remain in light tour, we did a few songs as a four piece and then people care about four we didn't, but we took it. One step further with David. Doing the first song and then Tina joining him and then Chris than me. So anyway, it was a concern. Anyway, it was a conceptual piece and. We just thought it. would be an amazing tour and it turned out to be just an amazing tour and so Jonathan saw it and he goes I wanNA film this and so we really did it. At the end of the American tour, we only did two more shows after that. And a festival in new? Zealand. Festival in Australia. Wow. So that was that was right at the end. That's crazy. Yes. So we wait was four nights at the pantages theater in Hollywood by the way where I saw Shrek the musical. I see and I saw the producers. Nice I always am I was so surprised to. It wasn't until recently that I. Found that the pantages I always figured it was this enormous place not like appendages tiny but. I've been there many times. It doesn't it in the movie it feels like. A Real I just always pictured at a giant arena or huge huge place, and it's it's actually a probably a great place for for filming. Control it. The sound was good as well, and we could control it add. We filmed it over four nights. The first night was a rehearsal where people were wandering around. You Know Candle. But like kind of checking out camera angles, you know how director to go with looking through a lands and loop. Yeah and then they set up a track because it was filmed in thirty five millimeter of for like a pan of cameras to roll down and they had to take the seats out. So one night they. Stage left one night they did the center one night they did stage right and. So, when we? Went into the editing process, the first thing was to do was to pick which performance was the best performance. Came they most of them were the final night. and. By there are a couple of times where we edited or chose another one. We did do a few repairs when there was terrible leakage on apart or something like that. So some of the vocals were redone where there was you didn't have enough definition. was there ever? An issue with the timing being different between night tonight or where you all in a click track or We were not on a click track Chris listen to click to start the song actually go back and watch it. You'll see with great detail you'll start to go like other things going on Thursday. You'll know it's a shot from another night. Would you charge full price for the shows even though it was it was a shorter show than you normally did I I had heard that you cut out songs in order to sort of make it a little more movie length, and then you have all these special lights and stuff like that or were was this your normal L. A. Tour Stop? We already played in La. This was very much. This is gonNA. Be a filming. You have to sign something that you're coming in here. I can recall whether we charge our weather. We used some sort of. Primitive fan club. We ever really had a fan much. We're tickets back then weren't they like eighteen dollars. They were they were. Extremely reasonable deal I was watching the movie last night and so much of it is. And I had forgotten this. So so many times the camera is focused on the crew bringing on. In the middle of a song, which which is, just you know the opposite of what you would think you would do in Iraq movie you would disguise all that stuff and yet they're the first four or five songs you're just. Taking a break during these incredible musical performance to watch essentially guys pushing something out on stage, which is it actually draws you even further in, but it's the opposite of what you think would happen when you when I saw the where you ever saying like Jonathan, why are you focusing on this so much? No because that was part and parcel of the show. The idea that nothing was really hidden. It was very visible. I think also one of the reasons that stomaching centers films had such lasting power is that it? None of the. Lighting devices used. were. Sort of a new invention that you then peg to that time period right? That was right around the time that Vera lights came out where he was starting to him computer motors, move the lights, right? I think actually Phil Collins own that company and Really On. From that point on you know that was that was part of lighting that you'd see lighting. You know. In the way we did it as stubbing since you've had a person up there, doing the light again, moving it right and so. The idea of Rear screen projections of slides I mean I think that'd been done since the twenties or the thirties and just everything about it was. Sort of. Almost felt homemade or they're like. It could have been done in college production. Yeah it almost seemed like it was influenced more by theater than by rock music, which then doesn't dated to whatever was happening in rock music at the time. That's yeah. That's what I. And that's why I think. One of the reasons is beyond the music standing the test of time the look. Doesn't date and therefore except for the shoulder pads that were wearing some clothes. Let's talk. Let's talk about your clothes like when you watch the movie now I mean you're you're wearing a I mean it's kind of like a jumpsuit. It's almost like an Eddie Murphy and raw without the red color in a way but you're very right now it's like in style and two thousand twentieth. So looking down I, don't think I'm wearing a job to was just wearing grey pants and a gray shirt most the time. There's a time where I'm GONNA have a jacket on. The. There was an idea that we would be all in gray so that. We wouldn't distract from the lighting of course, I think Chris. Bat. A Red Polo or something. tourquoise raining right. Lacoste shirt. and was like a drummer, right? I'm just going to do my own thing backyard. Independent at least he didn't take the shirt off, which is what most drummers do like. They'll come out in whatever the band is agreed to wear, and then like one song in, they just take it off in their shirtlessly entire talk gets hot playing drums. Urban doing anything and your pants off. The album goes Jerry until the special edition came out and home naive melody. Those other songs were included. The one we grew up with was quite a bit Sherzer was that seeing tough to do to it's not the sequencing that is in the movie. It's now we awaited made the album Stan zone and the earlier one was shorter because of the conference. Vinyl. Of course, and in fact, it was when there was when we decided to do a DVD. It was a a period of time where Christine and I done done that band. That's that album called no talking just heads. and. I. Which is what I wanted to. Not I didn't want to have a band name I just wanted to say, no talking just heads. I always thought sort of everyone's idea of a perfect date. And But the regularly required us to, and we ended up using the heads. I think we should have used shrunken heads but. David. Ended up suing US over the use of the name and. Over the use of the name, the head. Heads, because there would be confused with talking heads, but there wasn't a bean right but so it was the kind of one period in my life where I really didn't have a sort of was on the David and I were on the outs with each other and I was in New York with good friend of Mine David Beal who was working for Chris Blackwell and they were really into. Sort of music with with a video. So DVD's that had performances. Being new art form and we started talking about the stop making sense film and I. I said we ought to do it. And then I saw the David was flying down to digging factory. So I go down and talk to him. So David and I went down and that sort of broke the ice and we went. So then we. David was probably more interested in re releasing the film. So a great deal of the of the money that will gone into the production of the DVD went into remixing the record for. I think. Whatever theaters could do them, but would basic compatible with what became five one sound right and e n included in that was in mixing than the rest of the songs that we were not going to include in the record. So e t then met up in in L. A. and mixed the other tracks. and. Then had gone to the mix in New York of them film. And? I. Felt it was to ambient. and. So et and I I said I wanted to an alternate mix, and of course, there was no budget. So I had a little studio that I rented by the month and then I went to a music store and actually Bought three sets. Of Speakers and. Eighteen I did a new five one mix and then returned the speakers at the end of the. And we we? To that in the studio. So if you would see on the DVD around the BLU ray that there's the sort of movie mix, there's an alternative mix interesting and the. My view is that the. Earlier songs which have fewer instruments on them I liked the movie Mexico. But the minute that the whole Banda's author I prefer the mix that he denied and so as far as the songs that were on the original shorter record go. The way we listened to it now are those the original mixes that we do in the eighties and on the CD on the on the expanded edition, it's still is those same mixes remastered, and then the additional makes that I did and relate to the other socks because those are just I I know they're a little bit different in the movie but those are just you know a for for guys like adamant I we we listened to. Those became kind of the official. Sheridan's of the songs over the years because I I listened to that record for probably nine months before I saw the movie. And it and it became just kind of you know. The the parts that were cut out of songs psycho killer, and you know those it sort of became the official talking heads album to us. Doing. them mix we were at soundtrack. So it was one time that he and I it was so weird it's like he'll. You're so dialed in eighteen like moved like the bass drum like a quarter of a DB or a have a dvd or something like that, and suddenly the entire mix went away. And it was about five in the morning and I think we were kept again and we both fell asleep on the console and. We both woke up to our later like. Every kind of kept up and so it took just hours to get back to where it had the same feel. What if what if you had fallen asleep on the console and then when you woke up like everything that your head had all the buttons you're headed press had made it sound awesome and you're like, Oh, God. Would have been better. I'd better start. Nineteen. With cocaine anymore we're falling asleep on the boards. Well, look. We have to take a break another break if that's okay Jerry, we're going to take another break. When we come back, we will continue our discussion about stopped making sense. This is slippery people from stomaching sense. Of course we'll be right back with Jerry Hairston after this. Welcome. Back. You talk and talking heads to my talking head we are here. With Jerry, Harrison of talking heads and we're talking about stop making sense and We have a few A. Shall we say rapid fire questions this rapid fire question? Whose idea was it to come out one at a time? David David and was that based on a theater production he had seen or was that just an idea I think it was building on the idea that we had done starting with the remain light tour of the band. Back. Then it was sort of the four of us and then people being added as needed. Right then just sort of taking a lot with the logical extension of that how did it feel coming out fourth? Did you ever say like can I come second with that? Be would that be okay. I think it was in the order of the people who joined the band it was yeah and I think also David wanted a completely naked stage when he walked out. And so. Having just being David in the boombox. Could do that it also made sense on heaven for it to just be. Cousteau Guitar and a Bass just for you know it is kind of a nice way to. To creep into the songs right actually Chris joined the band before the host of. A mix up there but there's also Lynn May Maria singing background bogus stage on uneven. So this this idea that you came out fourth because you joined the band for it, that's not that's just kind of what they told you. In order to make it go down easier. No one talked about it but I mean. I didn't think. I paid sense just the way it was. Did you feel that way? Did you feel like the? The the person who joined the band. Last. Throughout the career of talking heads or a certain point, did you feel like we are? Nothing new person anymore does that ever go away I felt that they were embracing. So therefore, I felt like a complete member of the band. But you'd ever take away the history that people have together in a certain certain kinds of connection, but on the other hand then. You know I also had the freedom to develop. You might say my own relationship with each person, the ban that was not. Didn't include going to Risdon together and didn't include all of these things and David you know David and I shared a room for a couple years. Probably that's probably the closest I was was to him. So is David the person that you felt closest to in the band overall or did it of change per year while I lived at Christina's lofts for when I first moved to New York because had been moving I've been living in Cambridge so To us a little bit of time where I actually got my own place. So there was you know I felt really close to them as well, and that was also where we rehearsed. And so. I don't know I felt like I had a tight relationship with each person of the band I mean. Chris and Tina, by being a married couple. There's a little bit of like you can never penetrate. The joint. You know. That is that is the Christina couple. Did you view Christina's sort of like a voting block? Okay. So this happens in in in reality shows like survivor where when people pair up people want to split them up because they're always gonNa vote together and in in Monty Python you had to writing teams. Of John cleese and and and Terry Terry Jones were together and but then Eric idle who is didn't have a partner and so he felt like he was always being outvoted. was there ever a thing like Christina are always going to agree so Did you David tried to team up because of that or were there any kind of internal politics like that? Of course. Yes. It was not a hundred percent of the time that they would vote the same. But It was certainly more than ninety percent and because they would appre discuss something. and. That was frustrating. Because it's sort of the best that David I do tie. Right. I brought this up early in the band. I made this suggestion that says David was the main songwriter maybe he should get two votes so that we have an odd number right. But then when that make that would make you the tiebreaker all the time. I was the only one who understood yeah. I was actually giving myself. Eric idle ended up being in Monty Python is is he would always be the one to vote which way everything went because he was the solo. Person Very Smart. Very. SMART. They didn't go a lot of. You feel like bands like. Again, with our previous bans, we've focused on you to an area making the decision early on to share all songwriting credit from the very beginning no matter who writes the songs do see that as a wise decision as far as keeping a band together. While I. Certainly think that all for one one for all certainly is a very You know it's just watched this documented Jim Jarmusch made about iggy and he was talking about how the stooges were a communist pan. So they had to split things evenly. I mean he had wasn't like that. David and I think that Seymour Stein was involved with is to that when they signed to. Sire. David and see more had a publishing company called index music and with see more being the. Administrator and then we became signed signed does as as. Artists, so to speak or writers to that so we never we never shared in the publishing and. That has the potential to create. Some tension. I. Also Win Live when produced live they shared everything humanly. And remember right before throwing copper dead. Feeling like he was doing all the work and going this really is unfair. So it can go the other way a lot of really inferred I. Remember having a conversation with Paul McGuinness U2's longstanding manager about this. I thought I said I kinda thought it was generous of. Bano to. To share everything and he goes fuck that no, one would have ever heard any of bottle songs of these guys hadn't sat in the basement and. Worked with him and you made it so that he could realize the fact that he had the confidence in the talent to do this. So. I do think that. It's implicit when individuals songwriting for there to be competition on who songs on a record. And you see also in bands where the singer seems to have two or three times as much money as the rest of the band. and. That can be make you really resentful when you're on the road. We had a similar thing though it was not about when we first started out Gary Curve Star manager found. A. Guy In. Connecticut named Gary Cowfield. Who had a studio so he knew about mixing also owned van. And he had gotten this ban because a friend of his. had. been stopped on the Connecticut. throughway away. And the policeman had shot in the head. And so the van was just sitting in the parents garage for years and Gary finally went over and going what are you going to do with that van and he they go just take it and? so We hired Gary Scofield including his van. and. So it was a great deal for us and you know He. Carried equipment was one other guy with him. It was the beginning of our very stripped down version. And we drove him a station wagon, but we go out to eat and the reservoir on these very. Tight per diem will say whereas like have a cheese much her all the hamburger drink and Jerry Jerry Scofield we'll go I'll have the prime rib and it was like. You know because he made much more than we did on. Each week touring you know. So I, I do think I think a bands also as the. The only successful I'm an art form. As well as bands. You've got multiple people to deal with things. Bands have also the advantage that. Rarely does band making artistic decision that is just so embarrassing later. I mean you think of Absolutely brilliant solo artists say prince. But the film under the Cherry Moon is a completely embarrassing. I mean the. Purple rain was great but under the Cherry Moon is like. Them being what about graffiti bridge where do you land on that? Better than under the Cherry Moon show. I, mean, I think under the Cherry. Moon essentially I think the song kiss is an incredible song or the idea of them being in the south of France is bone be laws trying to sort of? Emulate F Scott Fitzgerald, and Zelda. Is As pictured in tender is the night is like. Is just preposterous and No, it's. And you see solo artists getting an idea in their head and they're so surrounded by people who always usually don't say no. And in bazars usually always someone usually the drummer goes like. I'M NOT GOING TO BE AN AD video. I'm not GONNA do that. That's just let you look at you look we'll see Chris and I looked like a Chris Chris talks about in his book about how you were all offered to be in true stories. And they offered Chris and Tina. The part of a pimp and a Ho. and. He was like. I think I'll pass on this. And that was an interesting thing I think that we. I mean first of all, we'd already started doing videos. and. David. First of all with Toni Basil and then with Julia. Can't remember the last name Phillips I think. It did. Speak on speaking in tongues did burning down the house. And so when we get a little creatures. I remember say Gary. David can't own Oliver Videos. So said Tell Warner Brothers we need to do four videos we In each one of us is going to direct one. He goes there never could account for that and I. Just tell them. There's no album. WE'RE GONNA turn it in until they agree to it. And so he came back and he because I got you three. But you can only spend forty, thousand dollars each and. We had an incident also just to diverge. David, because he had gone to videos was starting to Wanna churn out so many videos that warner brothers got worried that David would spend too much money but they didn't want to say no. So we I think we're the only band that owned its videos and lease them back to the record company at Smart. But it was because we scared them with how many we might. So. Going back to true stories, we made the decision to be actors in it. Could we? We felt that it would undermine band dynamics have David as the director, the film and US as actors. Being in charge of you essentially apparently Carson. But when we went out to do the videos that are part of A. that a wild wild wildlife and love for sale. The the crew that had been on true stories all came to us going you guys were so great these videos. Man's Dan a mistake. You should have been the film. But by that point, it was already it was filmed. You were kind of talking about your. Dynamics within the band and you mentioned that you know after the no talking just had. heads album you were in a bad place with David, and then you got back together to the the DVD which I was watching the press conference last night it's it's it seems kind of fraught with tension. It's it almost seems like you're in between Chris and Tina and David like you're sort of the buffer. Element. There's an element of me being Switzerland in this in by this point. Is that? I mean, how are your relationships with everyone now they're fine I mean David I don't talk to each other all the time but you know call him up on on the New York we'll have dinner and. He comes through San Francisco and we get in touch. So it's it's perfectly cordial ally. Did an initiative to sort of do re releases of talking heads, t shirts, and some of our that Burcin dicing and. Worked with with both David and Christina but more David had because he was a touring at that point. So he had all these ideas about which tour, which t shirt manufacturer to use and things like that and. Also because I. Oversaw. Various things I oversaw the mastering of sand in the Bassolino I oversaw I did all of the remixes with et. became the surround mixes of all the talking heads albums. It's actually really wonderful in DVD audio. It's when mixes are amazing but I had to get the approval of everybody else. So I was I was at a position of of. I felt sort of. There was new technology places for. The the art that we done to be. reformatted and come out again, and I was the one who usually took on those tasks. But that put me in a position of having to coordinate things between everybody. Did you ever? Did you get a chance to see the American Utopia on? Broadway show do I did not see on Broadway I? Saw It was here in San Francisco before he went to Broadway and I happen to be in. New York first month it came out but I'm well aware of when a painted the acid is is when you're playing in your hometown to get tickets for all the people that are asking right but I mean you wrote a lot of those songs that. So yes, I did I did and there there was there's always I can't say that. When it's going down that it would be nice to be credited. They're. Right You know I think that this is the most successful version of playing talking heads songs. David has done so far right and it's obviously really beautiful and the light is incredible and the choreographed movements are incredible I. It away it goes back to the. Earlier version until he has is that you were so aware of it as an art piece. I think. But I but because of that dynamic. It doesn't have the free flowing joy. That stop making sense house where I guess every every you know you might say that the performers have a little bit more freedom to just be themselves. That is one thing about stomaching sense just watching it again and that really struck man and was he was actually moving watching the movie just the joy in the life that's just kind of bursting from this movie. Everyone seems like they're just having so much. Yeah, and that that actually that brings me to. Some questions that I I wanted to a previous guest who is on our episode where we were talking about remained in light. Her name is Tani newsome and she's currently in the Steve Carell. Show space. Force as well as Star Trek lower deck's she's a talking head Superfan and she was actually in a talking heads cover band. That started out as. A stop making sense recreation and she she is one of the singers in it and she had she she was kind enough to record questions for you. If you wouldn't mind answering these are very very specific and the and the first one you'll see why segue to it because it's about the fun that you guys are having but. Let's hear a tawny asked these questions for Jerry Hi Jerry Harrison I have a question about the move that you do in stop making sense during burning down the house I can only describe the move as bounced bounced bounced bounced bounced bounced bounds jump. And then you go to the other side bounce jump I want to know who came up with that move. Thank you. I think David had worked with a choreographer in the beginning and. He had ideas and then it was someone who would win. We're doing rehearsals who was. Sort of looking from stage and then them talking and so. The idea was that. Everybody onstage would do the same thing at certain points and. You know I don't think that you know of course when David goes into his sort of Sheva move where he's moving his arms like this. That didn't get picked up by everybody else. So there was a decision there was a decision to there were certain things that you guys all want to do together like running in place during lifetime. Here's question number two from tiny, and this is about you guys having fun. I. Believe I want to know who was having the most fun during stop making sense because from the looks on everyone's faces I think it's a tie between Alex. we're and Edna Holt because their mouths open throughout the entirety of the film in just just bliss and joy Well. I. Think you might have to include Steve Scales. Scale because. I don't think there's ever been a precaution is is been given more freedom. He comes onstage at yells in the microphone and. Sing out of tune. With the background singers and just basically just. But he has such wonderful energy and it almost makes me feel like the version of swamp. That's in a stop making sense when you hear the version on speaking tongues, I missed the little shoutings who? All that stuff feels like if feels like that's the iconic version you know. It was just became a party. Tony has one more question Let's hear. This one. Okay and then my last question is I was in a talking heads tribute band. That's where I fell in love with your music. The band that I was in once fired our percussionist for eating a cheeseburger on stage. was that something Steve Scales would've ever done and would you ever fired him for that or a similar offense? Thank you. I don't think we'd have fired him but I think that sounds like something you should get a promotion for. There was too much running around in too much energy. Go to think about eating. Yeah it's it's funny. You mentioned Steve Scales have the most joy and he gets so many shots in the movie like the camera's always cutting to him because he's always making faces. He's always like jumping up and down into re like at a certain point I'm like this guy. He he's Kenny Guy Hugh who like really understood like the more I move around the more. The more the camera will cut to me he actually he actually went off and I introduced to to. Vicki Wickham who managed known a Hendrix unknown a Hendrix. Old Friends and he ended up being Tina Turner's band for a few years. So he got he have a lot of fun he. He just fit the bill I mean partially because Chris. was such a discipline drummer and did not. Want to fill up every space with a fill things like this. There was a lot of room for Steve to be there. I think a lot of other drummers would've presented it a little bit more what have been, but he was you know. Just the tom-tom roles and bringing down the house or something like that. You know they're working as a team. And I know that one of the things I was going to get to is that. I, remember when I was a signing some of the parts to people and David was part of this is that David Sometimes Wanted the freedom to be. Concentrate on singing dancing and I know that I. Didn't always take on might say the most fun or coolest parts I'd sometimes would have Bernie play them. Bernie. Of course was just one of the most incredible keyboard players of all time also is a better player than me but beyond that. It was also we want to keep these people excited about being on in the show. We're not. We're not going to hog all the good parts fundamentals. Yeah, and have them play the. The skeleton part, the other parts and I and I you know whenever we performed like I mentioned being in the dark but I always thought that the victory of the whole coastal of the band. Because I had put together was my victory and so it was okay that if I individually didn't seem as in every shot or so. So lit in. So forward that there was that I got plenty of attention in that you know everyone everyone success was my successes while while it's great to see you know you subverting use ego the good of the project and I think that's when you watch stop making sense. It really seems like it's a group of. Of people and it it it you know it is the way that adamant I came to see talking heads in so much was written about David being the frontman and him being in the big suit. That could overshadow it. But when you watch the film, it just is the work of of a group of people so much. So including the crew and the crew comes out at the end and takes Abou- you don't see that usually in in rock shows. It really is just a joyous. Telling of what a group of people were able to put together I think it was absolutely a team effort to make it work every night. and. I really felt that we had become the best band in the world at that point I disagree. Very, disappointed that David was so wrapped up and trying to think about true stories that we turn downplaying it live aid because I think that we would have killed it. You've been You could have been like queen you know. And I also think that you see. That in particular you in Peter Gabriel's careers took off after live aid. And I just thought we would have been a great addition to that show and especially with the integrated ban that you had. Yes. which was so much of a feature people of color so much more than than the English and as live aid did which was all essentially like people can you know adamant and Duran Duran Spandau Ballet what you do they? Also those bands somewhat copied us and started adding background singers impact the release tolls, Lavar backgrounds interest. McDonald is on the bring on the night movie which. You know is not as good as stop making sense. True. Great Band. But they couldn't measure of quite. Yeah. Well Jerry. This has been a really incredible. We really appreciate you coming on here and and talking with us about All of this is there I know. I know. One percent chance probably never will happen but we'll talking heads ever reunite and play again. Do you think Surely that holding my breath. And I think that David's reasons success I'm broad by. I don't think that he I think that for a while. Some. Making Sense. So perfectly captured talking heads that. David may have had in his mind I don't WanNa mess with this. This peak that we hit. And you know he was perfectly fine with you know going on and doing a record Brazilian music because it was such a excursion to in another direction that it would never be competition. Buttocks over the years he's come back to. You know adding more and more talking heads, songs to his shows than his shows have gotten to be in larger theaters and to be more successful in this one being the ultimate of that right? Well Jerry this has been amazing. We really appreciate it. Adam. Any final final words you want to say just real quick you your favorite Tottenham's record. If you can pick a favorite I, don't know if that's even possible. Well. I always say to in the to remain enlighten in. Fear. Of Music. and to me remain in light revolutionized, how people were thinking about music and allowed for. It to go in a lot of other direction that the not been going in it at all the layering parts and. The. Interplay of parts and I thought that fear of music to a certain degree with the. Sort of ultimate culmination of us for peace. Fantastic. Before we go, I just have to ask what it was like working with Bob Dylan and Tom Petty and Roy Orbison in traveling bilberries is that was that a thrill to be with those rock legends I mean you're but look you're a Beatles so Some would say that you are a bigger legend than them but. How. Did you feel doing that? Well I know they were friends. It was just sort of like over to someone's house and. You know and. I thought it gave a big boost to Tom Petty's career. Sure did certainly. Put him back on the map. Yeah. Fantastic. Well. George Jerry. We Really WanNa thank you this this has been so awesome pre to come to on our little show and talk about What is one of the more important records in in both of our lives? We really appreciate it I. Hope You had fun I did I did fantastic. We are going to wrap it up for this episode. We will see you next time. And until then you know we. Certainly, hope that you found what you're looking for.