19 Episode results for "Gay Community"

Community Will Be The Key To Building A Strong Business Post COVID-19 #862

Inside the Spa Business | Spa

04:12 min | 8 months ago

Community Will Be The Key To Building A Strong Business Post COVID-19 #862

"Gay Community will be the key to building a strong business in post cove in nineteen world. Welcome to day. Twenty four of the lockdown here in Malaysia. We find out today whether or not we get locked down for a few more weeks or whether we actually get released in a few days as is the current plan. Unfortunately the smart money is probably on the fact that we will be locked down for another couple of weeks. So I'm actually really starting to regret this idea that I was not gonNa Shave for the duration of the two week lockdown. Anyway over the last couple of days. I've had a couple of calls with some really smart people who I've I'm fortunate enough to consider my friend. And the conversation our to our conversations they were about obviously the state of the world right now but not hopping on where. We're at today more thinking about where we go tomorrow. What's what's going to happen on the other side of this thing and the one word that really struck out drew both of these conversations was community. There is no doubt in my mind that the businesses that really succeed immediately on the other side of this thing and build strong businesses. Coming out of this thing are those that are able to build a sense of community around what they do. Take the spire example. If you look at a day SPA Day spy has a regular list of clients a regular list of customers. They are able to build a sense of community around that fairly easily. The hotel's SPA does not the hotel spire is usually dealing with transient guests. You don't have that regular guests profile. You might have in a day SPA. So we're going to find it a lot harder to build a sense of community. I still think it can be done. It's just GonNa take some interesting and creative ways doing it so if you do have a a list of regular customers if you do have your client database right now while everybody is in lockdown and everyone's in a state of crisis and fear and everything else now is the time that you can really be building a sense of community and you do that by just reaching out and saying it's not about trying to sell your business. It's not about talking about what you're doing in your business. It's all about you just checking in on your friends your community and do that via emails you do that via text do advisor funk his a better idea. Why don't you get your fire and just record a personal message can only be a minute or two doesn't have to be long just a personal message saying hi betty. It's me just wanted to check in to see you're doing okay. Oh by the way I saw this online. Yoga virtual sessions for free. If you're interested now that's not promoting your business. It's just promoting something that you know. Benny might be interested in or it could be a reading course or it could be anyway to learn programming okay. Anything the important thing is that you don't want to be seen to be The pushing your business people might ask you. That's the great thing he people were asking how you doing and you can tell them. But you don't go out with a message of this is what my businesses. So whatever you'll businesses if you have a regular list of clients and regular list of customers if you've got your database you should be trying to build community right now on the other side of that. It's going to be even more important. I mean we're hearing now that a lot of people saying support your local businesses support your community. That feeling is going to be even stronger on the other side of these. So think about community community is GONNA be the ask yourself. How can I build a community and questioned whether the community you have right now is really that strong because a lot of people say they've got a great community but that's not necessarily always the case? Sometimes we we. Maybe overstate how strong that sense of community is so think about right now building on your sense of community. Think about coming out of these. What can you do to build a sense of community? That's the word community community community that is going to be the key to a strong successful business on the other side of this and well beyond anyway. Let me know what you think that is it for today. I do thank you for your time and I will be back again tomorrow.

Gay Community Benny Malaysia advisor betty two week
The Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras

Queer as Fact

1:09:00 hr | 1 year ago

The Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras

"Hello. And welcome to choirs fact a bringing you quick history from around the world and throughout time. My name is Eli Alice an IRA. And today, we're talking about the early years of the Sydney gay and lesbian, mardi gras. We have some contaminants before we start this episode. It will, of course, include period, typical homophobia, as well as lesbian, phobia transplant phobia within the community. It will also include an extended section discussing police brutality. There are also brief references to recreational drug use mentions of the aids epidemic. And if you swear words in quotes, if any of that sounds like something, you don't want to listen to for free to skip this one and check out any of our other episodes. So as I listened to the podcast, we're not going to be covering the entire year of the forty year plus history of cine game as being monochrome today. Although much we're also going to be discussing it in chronological way because frankly, I tried to rather like that, and it just kind of came out quite born. The development of migra is in many ways quite inspirational. But it is also when you get down to it kind of just a story of like organization and gradually increasing numbers of floats. Not a lot of fun. So instead, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about the first mardi gras in nine hundred seventy eight and then we're going to talk about a few sort of common issues and themes that came out when I was reading about the I like fifteen years all sorry and then just how some Slovan stories like that sounds good. Sounds are not going to be things that I have just skipped over sort of, like huge topics that we could have included. But again, this is what he history of huge Australian gains. Yeah. We're going to have to accept that this episode is also a rail on, for us in there isn't really much in terms of like a protagonist soul like main characters in courts just because again, with, like a forty eight history or even with a fifteen year history as will be covering. There are so many people put a huge amount of time and labor into an sorry like focusing on, even any like few of them was failing impossible. This is one of the few Australian episodes of done. Separately. Some of them will recent Australian history with Dom, which is very. Exciting because this is quite directly, relevant to lives. She's an all age for ironically, none of us being to out not with her, melon, and hate city and everything. I sitting I haven't been to migra. So even though I'm not gonna really talk about any particular individuals skipper stuff. I did. I wanna make it clear that in researching this, I reflected a lot on the fact that the history tour came out now I directly led to material reality of my everyday life, and writes that I take for granted as a quick person. Yeah. Rally today? And that was very emotional. And I love everyone in this ball. So I'm sad. That I'm not really able to feel really do that history, Justice in the scale of like while projects we're doing today is, but I just wanted to make it clear that it was something that I was conscious of the entire time I was researching this, particularly as there will be times later on, on critical Assam aspects of money rise history. So that being said, let's talk about money row. Let's stop by giving a very brief introduction to what it was like to be a gay person in New South Wales in the late nineteen seventy as you might expect in nineteen seventy gay rights are limited in Australia in all states. Territories apart from South Australia, which is wearing from and the Tae sex between consenting adult men was a crime, Temasek Charlie was crime. Is that why you tend out Quin? Yes, good. It's in the look and the best socks. That was very funny. Always, and they'll nor and he was also met people. Gay, people were therefore operas, Google is in the hose, that jobs, and their families is came out much less be who was one of those present in the first mardi gras March nine hundred seventy eight says that as a young emigre in my twenties from the queenside Bush, like many gay men and lesbians, from the country in those days, I was in effect in Thailand, displaced Posen we were refugees in our country. Which I think gives you a yeah. Good idea. What the atmosphere was like, there was a gay rights movement in Australia at the time. It was quite influenced by events in America. Yes, notably start will Michigan here out now, episode, sir stern will happened in nine hundred sixty nine and this is not as later by that time reading about stonewall and the insurance protests and nice and pride parades in America. John ware and crystal poll had set up the campaign against moral persecution, or can which was sitting his past political k group in nineteen seventy by the late nineteen seventies, there were a variety of different groups of different political persuasions. I saw more than -lationist some law, radical things like demonstrating in the streets and Logan politicians working without groups such as students feminists and communists. There was also a gay social sandwich is often viewed as being separate, and even at all, so the act of the scene and again use papers and magazines avenue such as all. So although it is a very difficult time to be gay. There is suddenly an active gay communing visiting in April nineteen seventy eight Ken Davis and an towel who's so name. I may be mispronouncing, and Hutus Sydney activists received a letter from the San Francisco gay freedom day, committee, exhorting activists around the well to organize events in the last week of June to commemorate struggles, rosary I get like pride or by spread around the world, but I never thought about, like people in America actually sitting down writing while the company being like please commemorates double with us this year. Yeah. American activists were doing this specifically in response to a lot of lake newly revitalized O'neil, increasing homophobia, specifically regarding and tempt to repeal anti-discrimination laws and so forth. That had been host by that specifically with people like any Bryant her. We talk about hobby, Mojo, sued, and this is very much the sort of political situation that how milk is trying to deal with. So you can call in tariffs it on that. You won't. Heroes cry live on the stonewall riots had been reported in mainstream. Australian newspapers at the time, but the strategy gay community was very aware of them, because this had been sprite by the Americans gay press, and just like, you know, how will gay people know each other. That is how it is. It's hard for me to know whether that's not reported in a strategy in media as a kind of hydrophobia saying, whether the Estrela made ears just like we didn't report riots that happened in new hook. It's suddenly Inle somewhat. Hey, maybe thing. I mean there's no way that they wouldn't have reported lakes, can stay students. Yeah. I can also I don't like it intimate. He but for the first, like, I don't know released decade of its existence. The mainstream press did not. Montreal. Yeah. I time Montreal was like the biggest festival happening in Australia. A lot of mainstream newspapers to didn't cover at all. Yeah. And obviously motivated by they started to do it. Many of them for the first time during the epidemic because they could specifically kind of connected to aids and it. Right. Because of that and say, like this is happening if you go to it. Yeah. So this is only two elements who've, despite we'll being very important to the Australian gay community. It hasn't actually been specifically commemorated in Australia on the Ken Davis arranged a meeting activists and suggested that they make some gesture of solidarity with starring folders anniversary. And then in front Austin suggested that I have three prayed with music, and costumes, and dancing so very reminiscent of what Monte gras is today. And this was inspired by footage that hit CENA San Francisco's parade. He said, we had to get people out in needed to be non-political it had to be potty. It had to be a celebration. It had to be devoid of banners and slogans daylight because people were afraid to be seen. And that's one of him ended in my mind that we have a it's interesting that he had that idea like it has to be non-political. It has to be a potty like straightaway because he say devoid of daylight. Yes. So it's just like to have is a night, yet to potty, cutting often. I think it's interesting because we're going to discuss more about the tensions between mardi gras is a political event and is a celebration. And I think quite often when we talk about pride parades, not just in Australia, but more generally. Being potty. We tend to sort of be like they were political. They were arise. They've become a celebration that become a potty. And I think it's interesting that he's slew of viewing that as not something that was valuable to do because that already kind of done away with most of the political stuff and they can have a potty now but it's something that was necessary because it was so dangerous to be political in this may things. That'd be more safer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, that is very interesting because I assume because that's the way that I've heard about it and thinking of America, example, like it started as a protest. And then eventually, they will we're gonna day politicize this and just put on some nice, costumes. It's just gonna be a party. But it's the upsets up his friend lens, gallon said that he was quite surprised that the idea is sort of picked up by the activist sane, who was arranging this, quite because traditionally with with banners and around issues of discrimination though intentional solidarity. And the idea of having music in the straight. Dancing? Everything was outside of our experience will anybody else's experience about political activities because this was such a no way to have a demonstration, some people might hard to convince because we used to was traditional unit. We marched down this day daylight with banners, chanson things and rally the. Yeah. Yep. Max PS, who was an actress at the time said, I think we opened the idea was pretty silly. Ken Davis said I was a bit skeptical. Not because I thought it was a bad idea or principle wrong or anything just because I didn't think it would work, nevertheless, that decide that they are going to how potty it's analysis. Publicized, people are invited to dress up callously, quote, the more outrageous. The bill. On June twenty four of nine hundred seventy eight a March was held in the morning, which was more village of traditional demonstration and five hundred people showed up to that the mighty growl was held at night and between one two thousand people trip to that. So I assume it wasn't cold, the mardi gras at this point may in June. Oh, I don't know. Actually honored think that it did stop in cold monitor all new to someone I was officially titled, but it was cool. Molly grow from earliest years. He thought from this day, I didn't actually think, because Monica is traditionally in February. No. I mean, the mardi gras the of lint as the like Paul to vegetables in February. Yeah. Okay. I'm not Scown. Where modern rock came from. Yeah. Of money from. Yeah, it's a big. It's. I think to question that to us, the books, I was reading type wall of even when I was talking about the nine years before it was moved to somewhat would just like yeah. We had a monitor. Okay. Maybe they always call it that to describe like an outlandish. Yeah. Extravagant potty Deidra stuff case there was certainly never any mention of it on being like we should move it to February. Oh, that's when mardi gras is, let's like sort of appropriate that imagery or anything like that. That was always its name. So viciously, the mighty gras held it not had many more people than the March hold in mourning. But even five hundred people with know, Mississippi gave at the time, Ken Davis said it was based on a new feeling in Sydney and a frustration among lesbians and gay men that although the movements and other countries notably the United States will making advances and fighting not much was happening at nine point five at night. People started together on Oxford Street, which is the gay streets. Tire wear this. Yes, some of the Warren coffee, but most of them were winter coats. Very cold time in Australia as we can currently attest. Yeah. I was thinking when you like this dress on cash tenure us off at nine time in June music was being played from the back of the truck, which one person was essentially the first private. This is like some randomly. Yeah. You know, since the truck caught a PA system back playing like gays on it's not like soup address, Auburn. No. I wonder what the guys on I wanted to, to this day will upset because, like there were several times when people mentioned all this song was playing in the ball when this song came on, I felt like this. I want to make a playlist like all the songs we were mentioned plane strain Kimberly O'Sullivan zipping signs, saying things like been a blatant latent. How about a close encounter with your own kind. I like the second one the best doesn't make you a shirt. Thank you. And about ten thirty thousand people begin to Marsh singing, and sharing out of the balls into the streets and serve as they went. And they said like heaped up more more people from the Gables posed by this time unbeknownst to the marches. Two plainclothes policemen had joined the March wearing gays litter veges are to be clear. They did have a permit for this much, nevertheless, under the summary offenses, active nights and seventy police had a low power to arrest people at public dunes durations, those frankly, some confusion, insoles, is that I read or we will be exactly gallery of the March. We saw said that the police hosted them into an area that they didn't have a permit for as an excuse, for arresting them on the police just kind of decided almost bought arbitrary. This is no longer legal, gutter. I've heard that story about the police heading into myspace bagel anymore before I've heard it too. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. In any case, it's clear that the police don't have any wish to actually disperse the protests. This is not a concern public safety or anything like that. They're just wanting to put gay people in a situation where they can beat a bunch of Montana. Wrestling Galileo, who it is kind of a room, the police set up to blockades trapping the protesters between them. There were obviously a bunch of police were in uniform. In addition to those high close there, and those who were in uniform had removed, they're identifying numbers and gave no announcement to dispose like. Like many other police we're going to be garbage cans up. So I but that's a new level of garbage. I mean, even new level of garbage that's the same level of garbage. We're meeting their identifying numbers. I think what that chose as well as like the happen to be a confrontation. And once the police became violent us very clearly calculated by the police beforehand. Bash gays. Yeah. Yes. To permit this March, but then, when it actually happens to infiltrate it in that show up into just be incredibly while to people, yet they removed the truck and thereby the PA system, and therefore the key to controlling the crowd, by the organizes the organizers asked to be provided with me to tell the cow to disperse. If it was a legal happy to do that. And the policeman said walk. All right. Yep. Yep, serve at eleven thirty. Police set home crowd was incredible people were holding scared for their lives. One woman remembers describing a girlfriend in hiding on how just hoping it didn't hallway. Regardless of whether people are resisting though, people who were throwing bottles and garbage at police generally resisting or if they're obviously trying to disperse round way, the police indiscriminately used force to arrest people that were not informed. They weren't arrest or of their rights. They were forcibly dragged by multiple offices into paddy wagons in order to make it clear, the severity of the situation, I'm going to describe some violence now hurricane hidden, so people were thrown into paddy wagons, in some cases, the police, then pulled them into them in the paddy wagons, one, young man was thrown into a wagon and the policemen then repeatedly slammed the doors on his legs, one of the wagons, which was full of people who've been arrested was driven away turned onto ninety straight, and the officer, then accelerated to a high speed and signed on the brakes, possibly heard screaming inside a man who had his fists on opponent of a bag in outside the police station was seized by four or five police dragged by the head of the garage, where his head was beaten again. Smoking are obviously, this is an incredibly vicious intense amount of violent since being. Yeah. And I just wanted that to be clear, overall, Sodhi, men and twenty three women. So if you to three people were arrested and taken to dulling has police station. They were denied legal counsel and medical attention. They were not told what being charged with at least one man, Peter Murphy was taken to a private room beaten that was he was known to police in various all the protest movements a woman with a head injury was denied medical attention. And after that ended up in hospital where she doesn't blackouts the people who were crowded into cells darling has PlayStation, were obviously currently frightened to the knows having laws, not happen to them. But the rest of the crowd much of the rest of the crowd, full, it instantly station instead outside all night protesting and calling out to them. And those who were imprisoned methods feeling that the community was there for them and sets you they weren't ready to be abandoned endurance uncover. So never ran was the New South Wales premier at the time and own. The channel ten news he said. These sorts of things happen. I think it is unfortunate that a couple of police had translated hospital. Attention as comfortable in the parade Williams duration. So essentially a good old Trump style. I'm sure there's good people, but. Nice job. The fact that he's had like police. I know politician is gonna have strong ties to the gays into the police. That's true. That is true. That is the like rough pilot two days later on the twenty six June. The charges were read and a large crowd gathered outside the court case to try and come in and he in them most which Hodge was taken hot in an illegal procession, police surrounded the court and refused to let people in including some of those who were there to hear their charges, being read who sandwich hold that, if you go into equity will be trespassing, you'll be arrested. That's not how it works. No, it's not in trying to get into the courthouse. Another seven people were arrested on the fifteenth of July two thousand people marched in the largest gay rights protest in Australia at that time. Fourteen more arrested and in a protest by group on August twenty seven one hundred and four people were gods. So for the rest of nine hundred seventy eight and tonight and seventy nine the community continued to March and to demand that. The charges of all of these people dropped, and they'd be given out of quote, right to March, the chargers would take into call it in November and largely it word robbed some people, which have some people had already pleaded guilty. They were charged. But for the most part, people, that's, however, everyone, who was arrested had been published in the newspaper twice once when they're arrested and once charges were dropped, including union, the patient and to know I didn't find eat their dress on cases. Oh my, their addresses, the newspaper yet are kind of insanity. This was a thing that was happening in America, in the sixties, unlike earlier than that, but I was not aware that was also happening here in seventies. Yeah. I don't know of any specific repercussion for any individual. But again, given us time we'd ended we don't have any anti-discrimination one things like, yeah, I'm very confident in saying that there must have been people's jobs this. Yep. And who will fan is this and things like that? In the Morning Herald sucked in talks. Now, I was about to say it's a bad paper husband only eleven th of may nineteen seventy nine the law related to parents history marches was changed, so the summary offenses act, nineteen seventy which I mentioned was repealed and the offense is in public places actors instead, put into war police would now not have basically complete how to refuse a group, the right to March previously like some group ability. Hey, we'd like to have a launch in the streets, and it was pretty much up to police discretion to say. Yes, owner now that would have to convince a magistrate that a proposed March hose risk of danger and was abuses in order refuses. So it'd be much more difficult deny why the lowest ranked because they've been protesting about it for over you. And I was wondering if that was like just a directly protested about enough that Finally I said. People had been protesting about it for a long time, like even before that. I think Vietnam war protests like came in at that time, it is worth noting that it wasn't viewed as being entirely satisfactory by activists activists and protesters and women's rights activists communists, and so forth. You could still be arrested for offensive behaviour, or obstruction of traffic and things like that. Which are obviously pretty easy to say that someone was doing if you wrestle policeman, who is a bad person. Yes. Given the continuous protests of nine hundred seventy eight and the of nine hundred seventy nine there was no doubt that, that would be a nineteen Seventy-nine Monte grow. And that's pretty much where. Chronological history of mighty gras is going to end obviously, there was also a nineteen eighty and in nineteen Eighty-one, money gras and so on and so forth. There was a twenty nine hundred month for all. Do you see how this is how it goes? I have always wondered why nine hundred seventy eight because I knew they March in commemoration of stone will, but I was allergic, one nine years off to stable, but it makes sense if somebody who's way later, it was like can you this much? And they're like, yeah. This continued and grew after that it's really. Yeah. Like, like I'm sure there were a number of cable, who it was, like that was terrifying. Probably I'm sure and definitely a few times they came pretty close to bankruptcy and things like that. The next one is it as it goes on, like it, obviously, changes and characters discussing it grows massively. And they have to hotties every year, essentially to like fundraise. Whoa. Yeah. The whole thing that an definitely, but came this expectation that like you continue to get bigger and continue to kind of outdo itself every year. Yes, is found in Chris difficulties satisfy yet. Yeah. But like they did it and they're still doing. I think they're pretty secure now. I feel it's a mess behind the same because everything is a mess behind you scenes. But I think it's gonna stop happening anytime soon. The by the late nineteen eighties mardi gras was effectively the gay event in Australia. The most high-profile on the biggest one, the one that people at Ford two or year and I must reluctantly admitted still. We have them in some festival, and Melbourne, which is very good bit. We call it like honestly say to an online, but, like we've got me it's on us. So whatever about money, girl. Yeah. Really? So good on it now, I wanted to step away from a chronological and stop talking by of issue will seem as I said and the first thing I wanted to discuss was that tension between mardi gras has being a protest in epilepsy political and just being celebration at potty. That can't be. Yeah. As touched on the first monograph had tried to bring together the political and the sort of most halibut Tori size of the gay community. The second Monte garage tried to emphasize the potty elements. More in order to get waitressed out into make bigger sending out letters to gay group saying that they were in into quite any game analysts Byan who support the idea of gay festival in the streets of Sydney, either, for political reasons, or just because I think it could be a little fun. That's interesting because I assumed because obviously, we've already talked about how they started out with the idea, but it can be a party and then I assumed that like with what happened to the first one, the second one would be like a very political, but to some extent the fact that they're running it again is already inherently political events still running up as a party. I guess also political decision in a way you get into that. That was actually very little response. A lot of gay men and lesbians at that time, most gay men, lesbians, with his interested in political involvement, and they understood migratory Szekely be as one of the sources Iran described it a political demonstration in drag. Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, those who are political somatic is not political enough, and if being disrespectful pointless in one thousand nine hundred eighty and anonymous lesbian activist in the gay community news said we chanted slogans against oppressive place attacks and Moore's full the revolution. Unfortunately, we are drowned out by the music truck. I asked myself, what the purpose of the mardi gras is isn't it? The commemoration of a brutal attack on American gays didn't police attack lesbians and gay men in Sydney to use ago. But let the music play on a sweeter a token. Let's get out of it through good time sooner. Both sides debate. Like they're trying to make a thing that pleases everyone. And they're gonna make anything please. No. Yes. I mean, obviously, that's not the case, because here we are in two thousand nineteen with, like, yeah, but people still like THEO yet to it. But criticize what that's trying to be an eventful like the entire communities much possible, and yeah, little doesn't mean you should try not knowing. How can I don't think it should stop? But yeah, in one thousand nine hundred one an open forum was held discussing with a migra should be moved to summer and also discussing what its aim should be. It was moved to summit days in summer to this day, the good coal yet moving into summer. Watson is very apolitical, though it moved away from stonewalls anniversary and was designed to encourage festivities given that some was molten time to be out on the streets in the middle of winter. This influence on was influence by quickly moving away from being a commemoration of stonewalls civically and kind of just becoming its own beast. Obviously trying to define exactly what that beast is body. Specifically regarding stern will consciously stepping away from that political pose. There was as you may expect very heated discussion at that meeting about what the pope is, was quite from the Sydney star observer at the time, sort of sums up the question. They are grappling with saying, what is the goal of money grow. Is it a political demonstration to demand gay rights, or is it a celebration coming out with his early political goals being to demonstrate the size and variety of the gay community and to establish its right? To be the answer. That was decided on at that forum was one that tried to balance the two. So the purpose was declared to be a celebration with the political goal of demonstrating the size of righty of the community to Donald support gay rights, and it's gone on to try and balance those two things emphasis, and always will, as you mentioned before the argument, has been made that money is inherently political in one thousand nine hundred statement issued by the organizing committee, they say, there are some gay people who say that the game on garage should be known political. This is not the view of the organizing committee, the monograph could not be nonpolitical, even if wanted to be Craig Johnston writing for any star survey in one thousand nine hundred eighty three discussing importance of queer visibility, and how the character of Monty growl was slew of like a feature rather than a bug said the very fact of organization by sexual four hundred sexual is a resistance and challenge to the dominant view of homosexuals as an inferior is people, the vitality sense of fun creativity. Contemplated nece and determination. These events, epitomize reflect the optimism doesn't Uday joining. Even if you have you mardi gras existence as inherently political the parade has never been devoid of political messages laws making it illegal for two men to have sex in New South Wales. Appealed eventually in nineteen eighty four and mardi gras influenced by convincing NP's, there was a sizable gay constituency, and that it wasn't as a fringe concerns to the large amount of straits flows. The nineteen Ninety-one more political than most was headed by aids activists protesting the lack of easy access to certain aids drugs, returning to the psychological wounds mardi grow one man said that even in the dacas G is of the aids epidemic. We believed if we could keep Monica outgoing, we could survive anything, if we could keep on celebrating sexuality, and I'll community even as we head for friends dying Randall's, anything was possible, and it's hard to be that as a non Couvet and yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think ultimately all they've payables acting like you can't get a bunch of queer able, add in the street having a party and have it not be political. Like that's that's true. It caught me on a global. Yeah, that's true. I think the real question is not if it's political naught, but what sorts of political issues, the community chooses to prioritize bring to the fore, you can say this. I think you know, most recently with the dominating of the mainstream, like quip political scene with marriage equality yet. Which was kind of like the only political issue, people willing test give airtime to surrounding the community in this country for a long time. And that was something that was was very widely disgusting criticizes, in the community as to like, who exactly this benefits more than all the people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the difference between it is it political to get out on the straight party like if we're going to specifically, how like Vana's active asleep part is something. What did they stand for? I think also that it is still inherently worthwhile and inherently political for a gay pride parade to happen. Yes, year in two thousand nineteen, but that just like being on the streets and being visible as a queer person, although it to be clear. Absolute so is volleyball is far less. Inherently radical wasn't nine hundred seventy actually. That as just the visibility of the community become something that we can take for granted a little bit more that we need to keep constantly kind of turning that issue in our mind that, like, all, we just sort of using that as a like, well, we can do it. We want what we want and forget about whatever parts about community. We want to because what we're doing is inherently political weight. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It is. Of course, worth saying that often the issues that do get pushed to the forefront issues that only affects a part of the community or benefit, Carla community more than others and often it ignores issues that affect people who wants is gender who wanted to clause wise, one game in. That leads us neatly into one next discussion about who monographs war. There is a kind of thing just well aware that where it's like, absolately, what political issues the community pushes like there are issues, there are who benefits and what parts of the community that prioritizes, but there's also kind of an issue with insisting that every queer event has to be a part test. Like every queer event is pushing something like I can say the value there in having a grow like your Queen is doesn't have to be political, too, that you can just tell right. Yeah, yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah, because yeah, I feel like so much of banquet is fighting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wanna dress up in dramatic outfit, and how many a yeah it might be I think inherently worthwhile as well being like feces event, about finding that's true. So who is Monica fool? I consent of the committee from its earliest days trying to reach out to people who are not well represented as the planners will attendees, all money gras and his potties, in grand Kabwe, who wrote a book that I got most of my information from we, she's funnily enough, cool. A history of the Sydney game was money. Grow. Thanks for him. Notes of this included ethnic minorities, and those not from the city, but although they were occasionally mentioned their involvement was not expanded on the focus instead was on lesbians. And also on a straight people were allowed to go. I. Lesbian bolt went was quite low in the early days. The community generally had either one, lesbian will non lesbians. This was typical of many a stencil mixed gender gay groups at the time they were run, generally entirely by men. They were really focused on this means specific issues whilst Colleen being focused on gay male specific issues, the media, the gay press in the commission guy saying, also all very focused on gay men as as as it was common for lesbians to understand these groups as fundamentally not being for about them and to instead time and energy into lesbians Pacific. Cruise in the late nineteen eighties lesbians began to assert themselves in the issues in next gave her of small strongly, and this also happens at monogram. They became an increasing part of membership. The committee on the paste off, which existed buzz point as part of this lesbians fought for the names of various groups to be changed from the gay whatever group to gain lesbian group. And so in nineteen ninety eight the Sydney game Monte garage changed his name to Sydney gay and lesbian monochrome. Yes. Which it has spoke today, which it is still cold today. I was about to say this fight continues by different suit class to make. Make one change. But sometimes you should make continual change. Yes. Most of them are terrible that grand coverage drawn actually came from our coaches e trillion as being gay Okaz in Melvin because he was from Melbourne from Sydney. Visuals interesting. Speaking of archives monograph had his own archive for a while. Oh, I didn't know that Kimberley O'Sullivan who I've mentioned before will mention again, wasn't Aucas by profession. And she also the community a couple of years, even if they had a complete set of their posters, and they realize shock that they did not, and authorized her to open archive their records and took complete with posters. They had to go buy them off. Good on Kimberly. Boy, from nine hundred eighty nine to nineteen ninety two she wept. His law of us. Four Monday, grand, one of the things she did was to increase accessibility, these tools to the public, unfortunately, like obviously, she couldn't be present at all times archive, gutting it, and the community didn't really treat it as an archive, but of freely available sort of collection over as Olson's so people just kind of like take things if people would be held hole for Saint promoting migra or anything like that. And then often these items not returns, will they were damaged by rough handling. There also issues with, like fertile graphs being used for promotion heroes, regardless of. Had taken the photo copyright was yet Kimberly, eventually padlocked door shut. Someone fried the Pavlik off. So she steel bar of the door, but she was in ousted from his position on replace with alcohol experience, which did not go well. And in nineteen ninety four materials transit to the library as like someone who's done October such. I can't really imagine an archive where people want to get in. So do. How do we get the public to come? I'm disappointed that attend the state library talked about. I was not in the lesbian and gay archives. I mean, I guess I get why they didn't want to send it to Melbourne Sydney. How does how 'cause yeah there's one in Sydney Morning, I wanna say new castle. I don't really know how it is. Because like out is cold, the Estrela one, and there's a cold like the Sydney one in the hunter one or whatever. But, like also off gallery is called the National Gallery of Victoria, which is all you have to just do this. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Because I'm told between being like let's just put everything now, go for the sake of like it'll being together. Little, I felt like it should probably be sitting really. Yeah. I guess it is good to spread racehorses out because like if you're is actually in Sydney, you can't afford flight on yellow, but unfortunately, like alga, it have the time and money to digitize school of Ciro now. Think of I went in with his count, I would was like is undoing this. That would be I think about this daily to return to the lesbians in one hundred ninety nine a new committee was elected and six of the voting. This was met with some shock and discomfort by the game. Now. A lesbian Tako. Who had been? Why are you cut Phillips who had been elected president and was a lesbian pointed out, it could hardly be a takeover when they still didn't have a majority and said, quote, if people feel lesbian involvement, is that threatening. They have to look at how women that were. I agree. I mean, that's a thing that we all have this tinting anytime of how men think that women taking out like a third of the spaces majority. Yes, from that's unfortunately, how it is issue is events. So frustrating six. Yeah. Especially when the Dongbu's like that opiates you'll like forty able in this room. We can count vote. Yeah. You need complex statistic schools to know that. Yeah, you need to do a study is a pretty bad at math. The nine thousand nine hundred ninety grow. Sure the effect of this new lesbian presence on the ward with higher lesbian and Goldman and more, Vince catered specifically toward lesbians by nine hundred ninety three study found that only forty percent of those attending the mardi gras potty women, however, half of the women were strays. The involvement of lesbians was much higher in cultural events, such as though to conclude that, while the boys go out to play the girls about two plays. My bedtime is key. But there's not. I thought it was funny. It doesn't say like what involvement is a role that went. But I think he's trying to make the point that just because then the potty it doesn't mean that fourteen percent of people attending that point Muslim central continued to be an issue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say like the fact that women aren't particularly interested in going to yo nighttime. Straight potty is probably a safety thing Franklin. Yeah. Likes history potty, it's one of the showrooms. Okay. I mean, yeah, I guess it may like that doesn't mean that women don't like this kind of event it made as mean the women don't feel citing event when you're only forty central though people, but yeah. To turn away from lesbians. In disgust straight people now, as I know we're all too. That's how I hit one loss. Yeah. Straight as fact. Horrific gate, you I? Yeah. I'll Lagos like a black background to great, you know, great. Anyway. Early days, Monaco organizers encouraged to come along and demonstrate support. By the nineteen nineties. However, the presence stripe people had become controversial in nine hundred ninety nine thousand people would honed away from bowl, which is one of the dances, held to fundraise somebody because it was sold out. Similar situation, code with the ninth, Monaco, potty, the pod, coordinated date will responded to calls to limit the number of straight people allow in essentially by saying, like that's practical said, I don't know what you do about that. Do you tickets? Hello, Kate attendance to conduct a question. Yeah. Like it's vice right there. Madi grab how I'd like you to keep that quite months. After the nineteen ninety one girl potty that was criticism about stripy again. But it shifted from just being about tickets going to people from the community to criticism of stripe people's behavior, people who went complained that few people dress up, which went in the farm, it's essentially going to, like, the gay people time when on those also feel the potties will lose their identity as gay and lesbian events. Some people estimating that it was as much as forty percent strict. There will also report to strike people at tending in order to bash the attendees, make explicitly, however comments of lesbians reported that they go on my men a bunch, which didn't want at all. Specifically gave in't yet. Wanna lesbians coming to this party, one woman, Melissa, Henry been the recipients of the comments made a sign posted around the show grounds. This lease it was taken down by the marshals. But it was up for a while. And it said, remember your at events, civically for the gay, lesbian community? Every ticket sold to straighten into Gaiman dyke missed out. This makes us angry if that up sets you good. Our advices to fuck off. Got special events. I I don't see solution. I mean, the solution is that strike people consider yet this solutions to educate people. The bullet, again, refused to ban strike people recommended the gay people just buy the tickets earlier this outrage and mardi gras soon sided had to meet and decide on biz Lucien the outcome of that was that only monogram members would be able to buy tickets in the future. This essentially meant that the cost of tickets was raised. So you had to pay for yearly membership near could buy tickets, which was part of the reason why the reactions makes jam emend the people in the community who will less financially stable might not be able to go anymore, but you was agree. That probably would low the straight people, but at what cost thirty modality coast. There were also concerns about the privacy of those became members as a public company edibles public document. And it was suggested that instead membership to any gay, lesbian community organization should be able to Feis because of least. Then list of members was decentralized about seems reasonable, but I really the solution Hughes to more money to Go Matsuura. Yes. But that's what they went ahead with, and the membership rose from children's six hundred ninety one to thirty three hundred nineteen ninety two seven hundred forty associate. So that's people from other states of these. This create pretty hefty boost in revenue, which didn't go unnoticed to those who criticizing it as being a revenue raising. Yeah. I was about to say, surely, if there if only member loud to buy tickets and can't take the extra membership money and put it to lowering to get prices and balance that out. That's true. But I'm guessing they didn't do that. I, I don't. Talk about. The party did feel and safer in recent years. So that's. But not quite Gail safe. And the ninety two sleazeball was still about, like a quarter straight people. Yeah I'm saying about because I feel like this is just kind of people being like I felt like it was like. Construe some giving you that like hog numbers. But it's just like how some misc- people felt while they within is relevant, but not so typical. But like there's no way of gathering dot on this. So that's what we have to give. Question. Bad. Yes, there was new incidents of harassment reported bit again, numb. And it was still enough of a problem. The board decided to try another solution announcing at Eric. People applying for membership how to declare the gay straight, bisexual transgender straight them by sexual people were quiet to throw the state that they support the aims of Monica and might be to provide additional documentation. For being supported gay rights, because like he's a photo, Mana protest or something like a statement from someone who was gay. So by people had to get like a gauge sign off. Yeah. Nice job guys. Do I hate you all k- this was predictably controversial? What the hell some really reluctant? They believed to demonstrate a strong message atomization of monograph will game in and lesbians, transgender, and by people who transgender people watering, how to donate a certificate, nor transgender people are not really being careful, but they're also known being like tugged licitly ousted, sir, like cool, a letter to the arbs of in process of this. However, cooled the demand, bisexual to document 'Support as quite an unbelievable height of hypocrisy the what we demanding Tasmanians recognize the rats minority. So what that point they were trying to get? Sixty criminalised Tasmania in the nineties. Cujo Tasmania, monograph, victimising persecuting, other minorities Sar. Let's discuss that. Much to say in discussions with the hell, I think that quote in detraction on that decision is quite Helling in that first of all the court, the grand Corey decides to use to indicate the detractors is obviously from a gay person. Voiceless supporters detractors seem to agree that bisexual, people aren't really a part of the community. Like that's another minority about community that is just as El Apoyo, another now that we should support that separately. Yes. Yeah. And this is kind of the constant implicit suggestion to secondary primary text. Like, obviously this entire time. I've been using the language that the primary and secondary schools do which is the gay and lesbian community. The event is cold, the city gain lesbian grow, which kind of creates impression that by section will people in also transgender people for that matter, either, just like weren't involved will didn't exist. That's the same thing of other groups that we obviously now include in the movement. I don't mean to suggest that, like LGBT is the full extent of VR in modern times like essential. People in intersex, people have floats in monitor guests, but none of the nineties. So I just wanted to. So even that's what of general tarm, all's by secondary promises. The occasional stories about bisexual and trans people's presence like this one. Yeah. Reveal this as the obvious entre cities. Yep. Even if most game and lesbians and for that matter by transpeople regarded themselves, as being separate that adjacent communities. You really can't say that all very very closely. Leeann I didn't do a ton of research is about the communities time that ever like a bunch of those ralian gays revokes in my day. And as we've found talking about other places as well as nine impossible to separate out gay history from pies roof, transistors, yet, like the question he is not like should we let the by people in its should we kick, the by people out like the all ready, then? Yeah. Believing that to get gave hasn't a sign off on your. People's specifically offered, but they need to talk or something, I think it was necessarily in every case, I suspect that if you ticked by sexual, but you like when no until gay people probably pack fine. Around, like still even if it didn't happen, most of the time there is still like hypothetical. You need to get an extra box tapes. Yeah. Gay and lesbian people. Transgender people that I have some more stories about, like my sexual and transpeople being just sort present if you'd like are so important. Nineteen ninety-three. I mean, they're not fun in one thousand nine hundred science have been displayed monographs leasing that displays of heterosexual affection on. Oh, welcome. The Estrela bisexual network and strict transpeople objected to this, because obviously, you can't look at a couple save. That's a straight couple. Yeah, one of them could be queer, one of them could be trans, you know, I shouldn't have to walk through. Monograph change assigned say that homosexual behavior was the northbound Agron tolerated. So I thought that was really interesting because I feel like nine nine three I was twenty five years ago. Now, I think that this little discussions about, like including bisexual and transgender people in the community and in pride events are often treated as like new issues that the young people in showing up about Emmett is validating, even if like by trans people are being treated quite badly. And he said that they will still around like, hey, guys, nor actually, like you can't tell if you see someone you've decided as a man and woman, kissing that they're actually a straight couple sucks that we still have to say that today. Yeah. But it's not a new thing. Yeah. I also like the fact that they were willing to change that sign to hide sexual whatever is that suggests that. I mean probably it's not universally true. It was done. More out of ignorance out of time spoke to continue on things done out of. Ignorance residents transmit sex agreements, Mace's valuable at sleaze in ninety four and there wasn't complaints might that made it difficult for transpeople after discussing with transgender liberation coalition mardi gras said that those people who generally identify as women may into the women the space on those who generally confides men might enter the men only. So I don't know how that really played out in terms of any transpeople actually attended this felt. Felt whether they actually felt safe as saying, transom going into a women's space this event and so forth, obviously, also like there were Knicks Jenna spaces that existed all the enticing execrated is worth noting that people have like one room out of three they go into it is, again, this isn't nineteen hundred four that's the one. Yes, it is kind of nice to show some link transpose in going to Montreal and going into the room that mashed agenda, having potting, because we soar silence transistory that you and I who spent low time thinking about transistor do struggle to consciously kind of carry the impression that, like transpeople shut up in the movement in the loss companies, maybe. Yeah. Too big for the right to exist in the media. It's not true. It's on and it's just not true on a bit of a slime, positive Markle Espy. He was one of the original nineteen eighties has written about that original March saying, the early rainbow nature all the movement was evidence with transgender an average people and people from my background. Good is nice. So it's clear that by transpeople presence and exist. Yup. Breaking news on. And if you kind of pay attention to those little references that is pretty clear from the secondary sources. But unfortunately, none of the secondary sources about quit history in Australia that I've ever come across really allow us to contextualized how the bisexual community and trance community, the game, lesbian communities, interacted with each other to what degree by transpeople were involved in events, such mardi gras as organizes for that matter. And it never allows us to discuss spectacle to choose, which I think is one of the great failings of the strengths revealed as it stands today. Yes, as I mentioned earlier, I'm much more diverse range of groups from real us openly recognized at monograph today, it is very much still cold again lesbian girl. Yeah. Whether it changes names, ongoing discussion that comes up over year many older people in the community. Ours isn't to it in part because the most common suggestions seems to be referring to it as. The Sydney Monte gras not link. Oh, yeah. Anything specific over its history advertisers, and the mainstream press often trying to refer to it as the city Monnet Ron's gained, let's be mardi gras. It's not because they didn't want to say the word gay more in wanted to downplay its quiz into marketable widely. So my Commodore year, but one of the early years the company that designed the t shirts convinced the committee that if I just put, Sydney, mardi gras shuts, it would be a Milan will to be able to streaming, which people objected to, because I care of strip people won't take the t shirts off. I thought I was back in nineteen ninety four channel nine was pressured by Kabri to only refer to it as a Sydney mongrel, because Kabri didn't want have ads plane while it was being called a news because this tonnage they have family image, God, you sell chocolate. Like staying as we all are gave chocolate. Yeah. That maybe said I like coverage Oakland. But I mean obviously, like you know. I'm not shocked that Kabri is ethically. Terrible. Yes. They're like while I do think that the names should change understands that lack of desire for it should just be cold sitting on it. Yeah. I darn thing that Mike transpeople saying that they want to not be again, lesbian is trying to d gate. Yeah. Like I still yet, like that's obviously, like so many issues with -nology community. Just not one that has an easy answer. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so much of this episode has been a lot of really heavy quite political discussion. And so I wanted to end this episode and little tell you stories about the Monica potties about like fun times. The people had and things like that good s-, or to give you an idea of the tarm the oxyde weekend described the first lease bowl in one thousand nine hundred to everyone entered into the spirit of the moment and used the feeling. Might. Tanta sees emerged in this to denim leda naked flesh now a floppy ballerinas and let us lives semi-naked, grandmothers dancing semi naked construction, while could be. Poise nuns. Leatherman Queen Victoria's transmuting of old descriptions. I wanna to casual people dance and Bailey Polly away to general, exhaustion. I like the casual people shut up. Jane. I'm under dress. So a lot of the research idea about monograph was kind of trying to find the experience of people who'd been to Monte growl, and a lot of the stories, people tell centered around these potties with Cullen themes, all six drugs, and a lot of references to the aids of Denic, many of them talk about memorable encounters with beautiful strangers that I decided it was a little too adult. Taking drugs, come on at the wrong time or two strumming to effect and things like that, which I thought it was many also remember their lost potties with friends who will love who since pulsed away from aids. And it was notable, the ones that it was very common to people to try to live long enough so that they could go to Monaco. Pump stores now. With knows it. Would you like to hear about my favorites of afloat? Yes, nine hundred ninety year this was the bicentennial landing of flights NF war. The nation colonisation of Australia by brush this, obviously, as Australia Day, does every year attracted a lot of celebration and protest, there was concern by the committee of what would happen if a pro Boston tentatively tried to enter ovation do about it. But the only float commenting on the bicentennial was won by an aboriginal groups that are ising celebrations. It featured Actimel call was captain cook and two other aboriginal men in a boat being by Whiteman. Anthony Beechy remembers the original float, and described it as quote a camp blackfellas, send up of captain Kook suggested banks Warrington set of bright on outlandish cotton has bigger than the ask what scene in my fair lady disdainfully, surveying, the mostly white faces that flipped that sheep oversized, lace handkerchiefs in pantomime of what attitude. Yes. This sounds great. To against take a shoplift turn to another term with no segue, monk Trevor recounts phenomenon of the lights going out in the toilets, every monograph potty. So he questioned. Who did that saying, how do you seen him seen inspired individual with electrical background ancient blueprints and apoe sized Phillips screwdriver, or is it a highly organized gang links to the very Thomas level mongrel would joists Gators? So basically, what seems to happen you and I don't know if this continues at some point in the men's toilets to let's go out and stay up for, like, oh, few minutes, ten minutes or something and is kind of goes out it. And then the let's come back on people realize they've been getting off. Organisms. Goes this. No, no, no. I'm calling you. Markle's one time when like this is happened out. He was having an intimate moment with a stranger and somewhere in this crowded, some cones out Steph Steffi there. Is this? Silence where runs like what are you doing? You know because that's just did like just let it be what it is. And then Steph Brasilia's. Oh, like how how's y'alls? Good health and good. Great. Going at it for a while human, that's later again, the voice cones, Steph, staff, and people. Like, what are you doing, man? And. Good. Okay. My taxes on Tuesday. Yeah. There's like really like receiving a boy. Steph. He's ably on ecstasy. Not not original. Probably also. Anyway. Stiffen that the next day. Even Don remembers flat sitting one year with who I think was his partner with another man, and they decided that they weren't gonna go to mardi gras. They couldn't be bullet with and they were sitting on the roof having drink when they were quite rudely, but fascinating distracted by the sight of the classic Sydney gay boy capitalized, trying his costume by. Any by the Hoffman Alan, half a dozen costumes before we realize there are, in fact, two of them identical and or specs to classics and Gables classic Sydney gay boy relationship trying to find the classics negate, the classics new gateway party, and I found it very funny that they alone is t shirts jeans booth. What you do when you're trying to. Like seven slightly adventurous things, and then I'm going to wear that outfit look. All right. Yes. I wanted to finish by talking about the dykes on bikes who have become popular and on parts of the mardi gras parade. The nineteen eighty eight parade was the first appearance of them in Australia, the idea came from Catholics, and completely Sullivan, neither of them had a renewed. Different talks by style boxes invented in America, and they have been to San Francisco and seeing that recently and will deeply affected by seeing the dykes on bikes Kimberly, in particular, remember that, she quote stead, or in loss, having never seen such a spectacular demonstration of lesbian power, six ability. So they both come back to us Riley, and that they needed some talks on some bikes in Australia to lost after. Lobby mardi gras to allow Australian vision to lead the parade, and they were granted permission was this before off. They found some dykes. Well, yeah. Then they had to do with the problem of not knowing any dykes with by, I assume they obviously, had like lesbian prince. I. This use group of lesbians with motorcycles for this, right. Let's find some. So some of them are created from amongst their friends, but they will put up leaflets in lesbian balls, and also just don't like anybody outside, let's you. It was a pretty big flyer. Didn't specify link what this spectacle was meant to be because I was dykes on bikes wasn't that will know. Or exactly like how they should organize themselves on the day. So eight bucks turned, and they had a pretty good time dead. Thompson was one of them. She was recruited at one of the bowls by flyer on ball. Whoa. By. She should have no idea what to expect. Never been to monograph. But had a great time leading the raid, sort of playing to the crowd, and like Reading's. Seal hikes. She said that when they got to the end of the parade. She was in such a good mood that she wanted to turn around drive back again. So yelling every year. Now, obviously, let's let's was saying. Environmental. Doc, somebody's a major part of the parade. And as I said, it's I call it. So I wanted to end just a couple of quotes that against how important and valuable both the night and seven eight mighty gras and fully being to member community Kate Hudson discusses the first monograph saying it was great to be in. I was young out for so many years to having a lot of difficulties with being out as a lesbian. I have memories vivid as that night. It was a roller coaster of night, earning the streets keeping going against. Coby who pulse open a little stories. So I'm sure it's very. For example, him discussing like meeting, this very beautiful American drag Queen, and the draconian showing Colby is possible photo to prove very cute role. Close as well. Fact that he will cute in his passport photo suggests hot. Do not let that one go. Because we says of the mardi gras events of the years. What I remember most is the just to be there, no matter where it wasn't the time passes for Melvin transfer Byron bay epic crowded codge is in the porn rain. Some unspoken compulsion, drove me on every year like a pilgrim on to mecca Polly after potty crate after crate. Clearly we have to guard I guess we do can take to modern. Country guys we can go from afloat. Yeah. Yeah. It could be unit to okay. That's my content, you can rest up. No red. Become a patron to vote. What else dresses up next year? We've been queerest facts, Munnings, Eli Irene, if you do this episode, you can find us on Twitter, Facebook, and tumbler as queries. But if you'd like to emails motor recklessly, we're quite respected team dot com. We newly have a patriot. So if you would like to help us aound less. Swerve moss and grouse routes to say that you can give us money you can also, if you'd like to plus to render cues of every inch of your beautiful little buddy, go to out, rent bubble by the patriots in rebuttal, learn if you do this episode we would really appreciate it. If you left us a review and a rating out of five styles on June's, because it really helps us reach a lot. I was saying to a pug, Cossio day and the came out like a year ago, and it was like, oh, well, like I almost made the embarrassing gaffe of saying, I tune apple costs. That's what we say any more, and I was gonna write things about us wherever you like on. You'll like bus station will want to about to say diversions anyway, if you do reviews, I tunes, we will read it out here on this phone calls point and to demonstrate veracity that statements we going to do that right now. I'm most recent review is entirely my favorite history. Hit us. As a fan from America. This was literally like pursued in between the last time I refreshed now over quitting timing, really not gonna. They say this is my favorite repulsed topics are extremely well researched and they told the audience about the schools in quality of this. Do we? Important this. So it's mentioned a number of never substantiated remiss minutes. Schmidt's for another podcast and it was for those man's, but presented the these as truth without question. The full one posted reset percents to listen, ask questions get clarification joke about the histories love fun really into play on the team. The audio quality has improved from earlier episodes, and not little trouble hearing. I'm standing what's being said, I greatly appreciate you have to call. But it's good to know I hit plant Villier episodes summers. Wait can all that? I'm interested in the engineers were topics. Well, actually real full, we'd all my favorites a much more recent, but I've surprisingly enjoyed stories for the back end listed before she became a lesbian, hassle of name because of the TV show. I'm very proud of him. I really appreciate letting a number of people have managed to reasonably fulfilling Quayle ash by times lifted much for that review that it was very thorough our specific. Yeah. Which we always ask for no evidence. All my favorite under that'll, yeah. It's like what specific things? It's also good tonight. That was appreciate. Destroy me. Have you still here? Thank you very much Ango. The next one is titled. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And then it's like the crying jackass. Yeah. And it's from Ashley white go from American. There's lots of eighties. I guess so it's happening as alert crumley difficult fund, his quiz show. Thank you very much. Ashley very nice. Yes. This one is from ringwald humps. And I have been saying, how many styles also it will win. It's what we have. And they say focusing much of on so much about history, and politics. I wasn't aware of an hadn't people discuss before the subject studied, always, such fascinating people that I wish I could meet and I'm willing willing to know more about his people in the lives. This is one of the early GT plus put customize knowledge is even discussed asexuality, and I look forward to letting more about ISIS use an emphasis to come. I'm also looking forward to that fifty through stone website's coming up this year. So have been enjoying those because this is like the four of them. So that was very out of date. Lived up Turks, -tations also. Yeah, we're done like a couple of foods, we mention that someone is possibly. And I really want to do more of that. Yeah. And we do sort of case that mind, and we are committed to trying to represent as many experiences communities hall Sibal, which we on quickly helps sexual people has been pop of. So I'm glad that's resonating with you. I hope we continue absence gestures as we will be back full, the lost of all prime on episodes on the twenty second of this month when we'll be talking about beaches all stonewall in the media, thank you very much listing, and we'll see then.

mardi gras Australia Sydney Sydney America Ken Davis Monica Melbourne San Francisco Montreal Kimberly O'Sullivan New South Wales Australian gay community gay community news Google Eli Alice Monte gras Assam Quin John ware
Buddhism and Homosexuality | Ajahn Brahmavamso

Buddhist Society of Western Australia

1:20:20 hr | 9 months ago

Buddhism and Homosexuality | Ajahn Brahmavamso

"Okay please welcome everybody to put his center here in Alabama and First of all let me say with full society how privileged. I feel to be invited to give this talk from the Gay Community of Western Australia. The guy that's been tried gender community on Buddhist ideas about homosexuality and is because then if he's here today but one of the leading members of the guy that's been transgender community in Perth. I think he comes here mostly on a Friday evening. I met him once. When I gave a talk at Mercy Hospital. He came into this and and what he said. Afterwards was one of those moments which really went right into my heart. Made me feel very sad because when he said that religion has been very cruel to the gay lesbian transgender community. Not Remember that say and North like crying afterwards. Religion should never be cool to anybody because will idea spirituality as far as I understand it. It's like giving peace harmony kindness above towards people of all genders an avon part of my life of mine especially the middle years of my life. When I first came over here I spent a lot of time going into the prisons of Western Australia and talking to murderers and rapists. And if you could allow people like that who've actually have this sort of love gay and lesbian transgenders who have done no harm to anybody whatsoever. So because of that. I'm very happy to have a crusade jihad against gender discrimination but obviously a nonviolent and today we're going to be talking a little bit about the Buddhist attitudes to homosexuality and other such issues and what is actually strike first of all my qualifications. I've been a month for thirty two years and well known as a teacher not just in Australia but in other countries as well but it's not just my training in meditation I've also done a lot of scholastic research especially my again early years as a mark when I learnt party which is the language of the Buddhist scriptures of our tradition party is like a dialect of Sanskrit so you can go back to the original sources and that you find out exactly what the Buddha said especially about homosexuality and what you find in. There was the studying silence in other words. It was not an issue for Buddhism Motto Avenue. It was you know everybody knows the Homosexuality transgender that there's been issues have not just suddenly appeared. There'd be part of all of our cultures from time immemorial and in India where Buddhism started there. Certainly there were mentioned. They're they're mentioned this. As a human beings like any other beings and not discriminated against any which way the only time in the ancient Buddhist scriptures which they were were really mentioned was when it came to ordaining as a monk now when I was invited to thing last year the gay pride a gay pride breakfast at Curtin University. I mentioned there that actually. I am more devious than any of you. I'm celibate and that's actually more devious than being gay lesbian. Transsexual in our society and because setup AC- I'm saying deviant because a lot of people don't accept sort of now the asexuality of Manco or not and interestingly in Thailand where I spent my first nine years as mark and Thailand accepts mistakes reality. There's no problem there at all part of the community. No discrimination whatsoever that if you saw that movie which was ladies. I remember what it was called in Thai about a gay. Is it basketball volleyball team volleyball team? Okay you saw it volleyball in Thailand. Who were so good thing? There wasn't some championship and that really sort of surprise people but they obviously they were really good and it did and I think a film was made after it's just to show the tolerance which was entirely then but the only time they put mentioned this was if a person becomes a mark obviously if they have sexual attraction to other men giving an all male community which is supposed to be selling but they can be a problem but my ministry. We've have some MAC. Sue have lived gay lifestyle. Thing is once you become a monk. Obviously you can't be sex reactive. That's the only difference and so in our monastic rules. Say Gay person can become a monk. Lesbian could become a non as long as I can suppress sexual urges to live a life of celibacy. And that's the only mentioned there in what is about any restrictions whatsoever about in the gay and lesbian community simply because it's just impractical to have sexual relationships if you're supposed to be celibate we do have a Separation there between the genders in monastic tradition. As you may know that we have a non modesty of wing kitschy gap marks monasteries over. Serpentine the reason we have a separation. There is because a lot of people think that monks nonsense. I live together when everyone goes home. Each others bits and the reason one of the jokes which I remember my father who was from Liverpool and this was about forty years ago he used to come on and say what fund is a monk. Have THE ANSWER. None because people think that we have to. If you're mark you already set up and so we have in the same place where people take what happens in the evenings but obviously if there's a person who is a gay lifestyle before they can become a month long as I can show themselves. They're not going to be sexually active when this celibate in the bush. Tradition if you are a mock you don't have to be among forever so any mark whether they are straighter with the Guy. If they find they cannot handle the celibacy too tough then leave this no problem there at all so just because you're not among forever. Your mind goes long as you find it useful rewarding so whatever vows you take a never for life because people change we allow that change to happen now mention that because that's the only thing which is talked about in Buddhism because it's not talked about there and because it's obviously that was mentioned knowledge of homosexuality it the best non-discrimination not even talking about it. Not Because of fear but it wasn't an issue anymore and reasons not an issue anymore and I think the reason why it never has been an issue in the poorest. Religion is because the way the put is is organized is without any hierarchy and. I think it's whenever there's a hierarchy and put in power then. That is usually the problems where people get into dogmatism. Power trips fear of pressure. And I think that's what many in the community have experienced over many many hundreds of years because when the Buddha died passed away before he passed away that people asked him said wants your passed away and got who will take over from you who will be the leader and one of the most amazing me anyway. Answers were no one will be the leader after me. Just let the truth. Be Your teacher from now on. What that meant was no hierarchy people. Try to establish hierarchies now again you know that. We have like a Deli Lama but he has no power. I ended up how which the Tibetan tradition actually give him out of respect but now he's not a leader. He's not a supreme. Pope or Patriarch Nikon because every tradition knows as last words of the Buddha Yukon establish lead a boss and the reason is is something fundamental other put said because the truth is not what you're told. The truth isn't my inbox or when leaders in some external authority in the very beginning the Buddha. There is a truth lies in every individual. Basically you know what's right? And what's wrong? Religious leader all their job is is to clear away. Any misconceptions so people can see the truth for themselves not to tell you what to believe but to show you how to trust yourselves and that empowerment of their spiritual traditions. I think is one of the wonderful things that we can offer to all people no matter what your gender preferences no matter what your race no matter. What you do is new powering of you to say. I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm going to not. I'm not gonNa tell you what not to do but I'm going to help you if you want to find out how to understand how you feel. And what is something which will create happens for yourself and others because basic puts morality as a fascinating concept the ethics of Buddhism we do have precepts refer Border Security. Should we have five precepts? And the sexual precept is number three and it's just no sexual misconduct and sexual misconduct does not mean. You can't have anal sex oral sex or genital sex or whatever sexual. Misconduct is just so. You're not having a hurting the other person especially by breaking the trust of relationship by going having a sexual relationship with somebody else so the only part of the Buddhist furture further lay community is to make sure that you don't abuse the trust of your partner and if you do abused that trust by saving with someone else by having relationship with someone else then you do break your precepts. It is gender unspecific. And that's the basic precept. Another price basic precept is the second reward because underneath that is the principle which underlies put his furture. And help people understand. What's right and what's wrong? Which is never do anything which harms another human being. Never do anything which harms yourself a Lotta time. People think a set of rules but really they are exactly the same because what harms you harmed people who would offer you. What harms other people? It does harm you when you see. You're creating pain and I was straight before I was a monk. Now I'm setup have been fortunate since I've become a monk have many friends who are gay lesbian transgender and I really respect them. They taught me a lot. And that cuts. There's no harm you know harming anybody by being a gay person being straight person so basically for me. It's what's the big deal however whether you are stray or whether you're in a gay lifestyle the most important thing is to create hub so if you have a partner please care for them just as you to be cared for yourself and respecting your lifestyle. Is Betting my lifestyle respecting other people's lifestyle? I think it's very important to make a statement to give freedom to people to follow their lifestyle without harm even when people do create harm for example. You know you do find another guy you're like you have a quick relationship with them. Even so the basic laws of compassion and kindness which is the heart of all religions is also an incredible amount of forgiveness. So if you have a partner and he strays please forgive them because otherwise what actually happens is that you've had a wonderful time together one stupid thing and you brightness relationship idea of a relationship is something which allows the other person to make mistakes good example of this from a straight relationship lady over in Kuala Lumpur. After I gave a talk asa question after I finished my talk. She said her partner she was in straight relationship. Her husband had lied to her and said I can't trust him anymore. I should not get divorced. She said so. I asked number one. How long you've been married. You said three years number two. What do you do? What's your job? And she was actually a lecture in maths at the university so I saw my opportunity to teach her. I said if you teach math. She should know some statistics. So that's some statistics together. You'd be married to your husband for three years. That's about a thousand days. This assume that every day the your husband has said twenty things which could be right which could be wrong this now. It's in the sub but it's a reasonable assumption. So since you've been together. He said twenty thousand things to you which could be right. Could be wrong and this is a first time. He's lied so quantum probability theory the next time he opens his mouth so the twenty thousand to one shots. He's telling the truth. What do you mean you trust him? Make another stand the logic of that. Why is it in a relationship suddenly makes a mistake once? And that's all we remember. We remember all the time they've been committed to US kind to US gentle to US sensitive to US honest to us. So don't break up your relationship just because one or two force your relationships too precious for that and this is actually what we mean by non-harming and having ability to forgive to accept even the mistakes of others and if we can do that we have a solid idea of forgiveness is all about accepted an embracing which is more than just virtue more than telling you what you shouldn't won't telling you always count you what to do in your life so we can actually have a much stronger relationship between each other and basically that's as far as ideas of virtue go in Buddhism so we talk. Say This is wrong. That is wrong. You can't do this. You shouldn't do that. That's basically we say if he's going to harm someone or harm yourself then there's something wrong with that you creating more hurt and pain in this world and understanding that you can actually still harming who sat hurting. Answer no one. So what's wrong with it? Not Think and so I use that criteria not teach that criteria. What is that criteria to any type of lifestyle any type of actions is it harming is it hurting and this is straight from the mouth of the put when he told his his son in our who our water sutra? So whatever you do in your life understand is it hurting is it. Harming which is why people are taught to be living a lifestyle. That was the big problem. There's nothing wrong with this. It doesn't feel does it a lot of time. If you actually go to your feelings inside you know if it feels well if it feels like if you're honest inside yourself and this is one of the big problems which are maybe because I'm talking as an outside. A lot of people in the gay community feel very frustrated because they know there's nothing wrong with that gay lifestyle being themselves but a lot of our community outside says this summit will and they feel this either guilt trip put on them this tension put on them and say what's the problem. The people want to do the right thing. You know. It's right for people tell you it's fun. And that's a conflict there so wanting I contained nothing wrong with the lifestyle. But it's up to people like me to keep up talking promoting telling people that listen. Stop putting your trips on people who've had enough pain already give everybody a break in this life and stop trying to control other people according to your own bigotry when it comes down to it. Religion should be giving freedom to people as I said at the beginning fatal. If people do harm others said decision in the end you have to trust people to try and encourage and teach them to do the right thing. A Lotta time to trust that in a gut feeling one of the moving anecdotes which really meant a lot to me. And it's very illuminating. Because I was born about fifty five years ago I was in Thailand during the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was an important part of my history and I do remember ever served obviously in k. From England they went part of the Vietnam War but I went to the states. Many many people who were in the frontline then made my friends among so so did fight in Vietnam and a very traumatic time for them being being order to kill but the adding which I found very important was suddenly which happened an atrocity. A war cry called the massacre. Many of you may remember those words my lie the officer in charge was the guy called the ten county. See a double e. wise to remember his name done if he took orders from above but he was the officer in command and they audited the all the trooper soldiers. Maybe one hundred or more to go into a village in Vietnam called my Lai and indiscriminately killed. Every man woman and child without an exception that was at water. Everybody was to be killed and they did that. I think one of two people survived as you always do ran away actually to tell people what had happened. That was like a war crime. You can't do such things and get away with it. There's always somebody who let's on what happened and obviously that was a very big scandal for the. Us government hit that he has papers and Lieutenant caddy was put in jail but twenty five years afterwards so it was a TV documentary. Made where some enterprising reporter trace this many of those soldiers as he could find to find out the aftermath twenty five years on became survey interesting discoveries he said soldiers who had participated in the atrocity could not have a relationship with anybody. They're into drugs and alcohol. Socially faded functional. Imagine carrying that pain in your heart. What you've done somebody can never remember. You'd Never Forget. There's always a couple of exceptions. Which are the most interesting part of research and the rest permanent exception was an African American soldier who refused to go in who stood his ground and said taste commanding officer. No I'm not going to do this. As a result of disobeying that order he was putting military jail for two or three years. Many of you may have seen documentaries or read books about American Tales. They're far more statistic. The no strategy entails and military. Jails even worse this African American soldier. When he was interviewed he knew what was going to happen to him by refusing two or three years in a tough hard jail for just standing his ground and not doing something which he thought was wrong but as a result of that he was the only person or one of the only people who had a good relationship was happy was at ease with himself and when they report to ask him. How could you do that? How could you refuse an order? Nine consequences are going to be so tough on some sort of philosopher. His background was someone born in a ghetto. Who joined the army? Just get out of that terrible lifestyle. There's many American soldiers do that. No hopers who tawny armies way out of their poverty or the crime based communities. That's what hey why he joined. He had very little education reset when the order came in to go in and shoot men women and children. You said you just couldn't do it. His got told him it was wrong. He never been taught. This wasn't particularly religious. He just news. You need to tell you that. That's wrong costner. He knew it was wrong. He trusted and that feeling. He did suffer for two or three years. We've been happy for thirty years. So that's the sort of person I respect. He's got his just rewards of happiness and well-being the point is you don't need religion to tell you what's right and wrong. You Dirty Christianity to tell you anything putting Islam or whatever you know what's right and wrong. The religion is empower you to trust that feeling not to treat you like slaves or children and say do this and do that. Not Sort of primary school kids. But why is it that people treat you such Java Villigen used to empower not auto auto unfortunately the if you empower people you lose the power of your hierarchies so high walkie start lying to give people freedom? They liked to have dark moore and lighter have rules which they can punish. Shouldn't use fear in people to tell you if you don't do this you go to hell and that way fear is something. We Sat Ivy Bill Gates as a teenager. I if any God any higher being is kind compassionate you send anybody to any hell or Polish any party. I know from experience now among the punishment just has no place in the growth of a human being but actually restricts their growth stunts and you don't punish anybody for folks you reward them for their successes. I was a schoolteacher for one year before I became a monk as I tell people taking in a high school is enough to make anyone become a monk but while I was teaching I let a lot one of the things which I learned with summit coal positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement unfortunately in our communities especially schools. You know how it works. It won't be school if you make a mistake. You're punished. You did something right. That's okay it's just passed over and that's why people get stunted than other way of education which was proved again and again and again people. Just don't take the time to follow it. Is You never panish when someone makes a mistake? You got the question wrong. Never give black mark or detention or whatever you make a mistake. Absolute forgiveness completely ignored. When you make it right you do something good you are warded. You give them positive reinforcement which means the qualities you want to see in somebody else get encouraged so your relationships are never blame your partner. If they're making a mistake with a do something kind and good which he really liked appreciate give them a big hug. Whatever is to reinforce that behavior which have liked to see even recently when I was in. Us last year the end of last year someone told me that guy over there was making a fortune potty training young pets because we have a like a small little dog in your house. You know you've got to train them to sort of pull and we in the right place and not on the carpet on the couch. There were trying to take what he did. He guaranteed now with money in three. Days are probably train your pets to always poor we outside. What do you do? You take the pet outside. All these other workers take him outside to the park or to the neighbor's tree the wait there until they did their. Put this shit all the urination on the tree and as soon as I did on the tree do somersaults jump up in the air. Be EXUBERANT SING. A Happy Song. Just invite the dogs realized something good and it were to treat in three days those dogs or those kittens would only do shit or outside this positive reinforcement and this guy had a business is making a fortune but apparently I also heard what made her on the head. This in New York and someone told me in San Fran. The Guy was actually having problems now because some of the pets which trained in this way. We're in the house when the owners were watching the football on a TV and suddenly teams scored a goal and they shouted their pets. Did it does actually the power of positive conditioning. And so that I've taken on ball certainly and put it seven. It's part of down punishments in Buddhism. Without even have guilt impetus is a word which is in the old sense quit. The second was like an English word. We feel guilty about anyway. Does that really help? You've done nothing wrong if we have done something well if you feel guilty about it you're liable to repeat the mistake in the future if you forgive. It is gone and you're unlikely to make a mistake in the future. So that have punishment impetus even. There was a positive like a trainee. Come to my modest. We some years ago. He made a mistake. He broken the rule. I'm thinking after we're not supposed to do that as a Max. Quite an austere life star. So he came to me to confess like how was the abbot so nominee in charge by often forty by the other monks? So it's like a quasi if you have a decision to make take vote on it and if I lose is in Abba being there for a long time. I voted so I'm not really the boss. No power trip this usually on this life we just had a three month period. No arrests peewit means means the rest of them do nothing. I have to do all the work anyway. This one this one trainee Mark. He Keva confesses terrible thingy data. It's obvious more thing for goodness sake. But he felt tell. What about? Forgive yourself just I do again. That's all good person. We wouldn't take that. He worked his some sort of penance. He demanded a penance. So I had to do some quick thinking I would not really enter punishing but I thought this is Australia. What's a typical traditional Australian punishment? Just been reading a history book so I thought okay a total new sitting right in front of me said okay. You've won a punishment. I'll give you fifty strokes or the cat. He went white. He thought my goodness. I'm going to get whipped but then I explained what fifty stroke so. The cat is in the Buddhist tradition in our monitoring. You got three cats. Find that cat and stroke fifty times love of compassion. Stupid person capacity by stroking a cat. Maybe can have the same compassionate kind to yourself and that'd be so hard on yourself. Have a bit of forgiveness and kindness. But I've always noticed that such forgiveness and such. You only find that in tradition. Have Hierarchies is strange thing? What is the hierarchy this power trips and people want to impose their power through fear? And Anyway you can impose it through. Fears HAVE SOME SYSTEM OF PUNISHMENTS. Obviously being a sort of a amateur sociologists there but I think there's some truth to that so hopefully even in the game there's been community. Keep it loose. That have a hierarchy. Then have the head Guy. Of W way give you have that. It's going to be problems for sure that keep it loose and if you keep it loose you find this no even means to actually enforces power trips. And when they have power trips there is fear there is punishments and all the worst parts of religion. I think that the sooners like religions Christianity or Islam stopping in the power trips. And they're not to tell people what to do just to serve to help to be friends to lead the way in peace and compassion and kindness that we might have a much better world real world. I know that one of the things which my father this is actually some of the first book which I wrote which is called opening. The door of the heart and the title of that book came from one of the most meaningful stories of my life. There's a nice little story to end civil talk and then start to open up for questions and answers one of the things which changed the way I looked at life was when I was about thirteen or forty. My father took me aside and said something which was about to change my life. My father was a very poor man. He was born in Liverpool and after the Second World War he just hitchhiked London to get a job but he was always very sickly so because of that. Now he'd never really hold down a job for very long so I grew up in what we call under the council flat the small apartment which was owned by the local government and a poor part of Acton west London. And that's where I grew up so it was a very poor man put. He's actually abused as a child. His father who was a prominent poll during the Depression Years. Anybody he got from his job he spent in pup come home drunk take off his belt and whipped any kid who came in his pass and then start on his wife. My father's mother. Whenever I talk about my grandfather to my father my father just ended the conversation. Say That guy was passed it you can imagine being born and living in the household like that with a father was always keeping you fanatic. And the worst thing. He said he could take the beatings from so seeing his mother beaten like that was almost too hard to take but he said that whenever it was on the end of that belt he always saw. If ever I go up get married and have children. I would never do that. He never did. He just could not beat as if we did something. Well you remember what it was like. So it's an interesting case of someone who is subject to really gross domestic abuse or child abuse not the visiting on his kids but actually learning for me I starting it and becoming completely the opposite being gentle and this particular case and he took me aside one is about thirty he said son. Whatever you do in your life always remember this that off my house would always be what was most important was what ever you do ever. You go is a thirteen year old? That meant me but didn't really understand it. I needed years about two member that I knew important. I didn't know why I started thinking about it. As I said his house was a small council flat in fact we were so poor that my father would often leave the door open. When we went to fate of birth is in fact we hope burgers would actually come in. Take pity on us and leave something. He didn't mean the door of his house. Well he meant what really changed my life. Say whatever you do wherever you go. The door of my heart will be open to you. That was the amazing explanation of what love really means to say to another person. Whoever you are whatever you do something which is much greater than judging criticizing you wherever you go. Whatever you to the door of my heart. His always open. I'd always be your friend. Had always be your lover even whatever you do wherever you go and that was something which really moved me. Which showed me something really spiritual and divine if you like. You know what? A true relationship is a father's love. His son was completely on conditional. And unconditional love should be the heart of all religions not a critical love. I will love you. If which has no boundaries has no demands has no expectations will love you no matter what under at least one or two people here have yet to come out to their parents. Isn't that a sad indictment? The parents do that. Understand what love is. GonNa be wonderful if parents would be able to say to their kids. You mean the okay okay. That doesn't matter you're my son and daughter. That's what's important to say to you no matter who you are what you do every few pissed even if you're a murderer that like that but still dog my heart so what's happened to you. Something bigger something greater. That was actually what changed me as a mark making more open so I don't care who comes in here then a matter who meet on the street. Even the dog barking did talk the door of my heart to you as well. Very often hear spirituality which I really respect. I'm not saying that's what I remember the guy that's been treasurer community to say to your partner. Whoever you are wherever you are whatever you do. Two of my heart's always open to you. What a wonderful thing. It is to stay but it's more because one thing which I only understood much later when I was a mark with always to say those same words one day to yourself whoever whatever I do whatever anybody else says about me I don't care that all of my heart his open to myself to love yourself who you are. Don't try and change to accept your beauty issue and if you have false. That's actually what makes you nice. If you a perfect your partner would ever be able to stand you so folks to do things. That's what makes you human and little so be able to say that to yourself. Don't try and get rid of your false embrace of enough yourself for who you are and then you find force anyway that just features of yourself and then you feel at ease with yourself and you can spread that to other people. They'll be eased with your and sped to our society so that can be ease with all the different lifestyles which people live in this great big world religion. Anybody wants to follow whatever philosophy would ever pass is not really harming other people are having coffee and always say. I'll be your friend. So that's in. Essence I tried to say in essence Buddhism and homosexuality spiritualism and home inspection charity or spiritualism. An ethic is encompassed in those words. The door of my heart is always open to me to you. Whoever no matter what you ever to whoever so spoken for fifty minutes already. There was a time for a questions and answers. Anyone going to ask drafter I almost do you think this last night the talk I gave a lot of talks. Many prices the different groups and sometimes is hard to get the first question so. I'll tell the following story basic Buddhism Buddhist. Believe in Karma and reincarnation that's a basic Buddhism and one ancient teaching of the Buddha. He actually gave. You gave us an answer to certain things about reincarnation. Why is it that some people wealthy or you know they they work and they just make money easily and other people you work so hard and you still poor you are those guys and they still don't make it? Why is it some people a wealthy and some people are? What's the comet caused behind that and also the said why some people bought beautiful and other people bought ugly last night. You may notice when I say ugly. I always look at the floor. I never looked at anybody because once I did that. And she set actually. I'm Brian Watt. We're looking at me. When you said that word. Ugly the big trouble but more importantly would have said why it is that some people are born intelligent in the next life. What other people will be reborn stupid and put a said? This is a Bihar. Come we Bunga Sutra in imagine Medicare quoted too. I'm not making this up. The border said the reason why people are born stupid in their next life is because they do not ask questions in this life any questions. You gotTA charts. Yeah thank you. I hope you look in the West Australian newspapers letter to the editor. They're criticizing the Dalai Lama. Said you can't say that basically are thing. I opened the letter by saying dilemmas out of line saying this is nothing in Buddhism which is critical of homosexuality. He's made a mistake but I forgive him but the point is I also mentioned the data and not the pope who put us in and so what he says my interesting but it's not an authority an interesting. I got into trouble with that million a better police community. We're very upset with me for saying that. But I can still carry on doing that. Because there's no authority impetus who you should not criticize when it's whether criticism even criticize me if I make a mistake I'm not a pope would say with your partner. If you make a mistake you get criticism. That's part of life. And sometimes you listen to criticism. I could have made a mistake. I'm sorry the alarm of having is going to be coming to Perth in June. So being a leader the bullets community here obviously have an opportunity to speak with him and I asked him see what he's doing is Italian. How much such comments hurt so shouldn't say things like that there's no justification for it and they put a scriptures not only that but it's a sloppy way speaking. You've heard another people so basically it's not I disagree with it. Actively fighting against that one come put Est. It's not what I believe. It's not what I've heard of some of his statements before but there was an article. I think was in March or April in the West Australian repaint of an article from the Daily Telegraph in London. So the authenticity of the state's statements is not really questioned. The dialogue obviously said that otherwise the Daily Telegraph will be sued for everything and he said that. If you want to be about this you can be a homosexual was full stop. I think you said is well. Yeah correct yeah. That's right. Yeah and so you look at that what he said what vacation of you. There's nothing in the scriptures to support it and if you want to sort of say well maybe they didn't know about anal sex. That's obviously wrong. Because that certainly mentioned in the scriptures this is for marks for monks it is wrong to have anal sex with a man with a woman with the dog anything. Because you're amount you celebrate so it's Rosa of celibacy but that study because you've taken a vow of non six. There's not one for life if you don't like disrobing do whatever you want. But to say that applies to non Max or non months is not true. And you ask yourself. Is that harming hurting? Obviously and it's just the way as a gay couple. You can express your intimacy together so you know yourself is okay so whoever told you opposite if it's me or any authority trust yourselves so this is actually what will agent is posted about. Not telling you what to do but impairing you encouraging you freeing you should be liberation and freedom. No about putting people in boxes knife found the more you live right in Free People. The less they harm each other. You tell people. This is an old story that in Jerusalem and about ten years ago the doctors went on strike for more pay so people actually they walked out the hospitals and there's only a few nurses a few strikebreakers that's looking after. The patient's been those two weeks. When the doctors went on strike that death rate in those hospitals plummeted. More people survived so much for doctors doctors here but to me. There's little bell swing when you don't intervene and leave. People Learn Time obviously emergencies people die by the time we just stir things up make things worse too. Often linked is famous for stone. Things up getting involved and making things worse religion real spiritual should be freeing people liberating Tov. My Heart Serpentine. No matter what you that's not putting you in a cage is giving them whatever. You always have a friend. What does that makes people live up to such ship kid? Anybody when you hear things like that so that was kind of line and Actually. That's what he said too but he's he's made a mistake that okay said okay they can. I think it's on the web because you're a webmaster stood on the website identifies guess so complicated as coming in June. So maybe if I ask him if he can do public talks nephew got them. Say This is right so we have to intention people for the next number three. Yes yeah okay. Yeah uh-huh uh-huh correct. It is sometimes too. Traditions imposed a hierarchy but the type of Buddhism which which I thought it was. The tradition was in Thailand. Entire the have a Sangha Raja. But he hasn't got. He's only got the power which the government gives him but many of them are saying according to basic monastic will. Now it's up to us to do this or to do that. You can't have any power at all. In fact it's a community has the power to community of monks so we can outvote the head monk of Thailand very easily and naturally that sitting next week. Assad EP Day for two years now avenue. And this you've seen times when I've been voted in the sanger on your because when we have any voter and things that we have twenty two Max at our monastery now we put up something suggestion and say what you want to do. Even simple things. These are winter coming our shoulder and we're about coming world now so we actually changed over to some of hopes and we actually change him. I'd I'd say right from today. Are we changed? We have a vote on it. Most monks they see win and has been times when I've been out many times. I remember those pets because I was voted. I remember the more than anybody else but when we have put us. I think in Vietnam because it was colonized by the French and sometimes put assume adopts the colonial model especially from Catholicism because that was hit as powerful maybe say modernize put as they post hierarchies. That's actually whether tie idea of a San Garage. Came from was from King. Macoute one hundred hundred twenty years ago. Who WANTS TO MODERNIZE PUT US on Western Principles? And he had this hierarchy. But many Max. Now you can't do that so we don't actually have a hierarchy. Yeah Yeah you have. The father is elder brother. Lhasa Chinese Sort of culture but that high like is not authoritarian is in the sense original. Buddhism was on hierarchical. Many people don't actually know that democracy did not start in. Greece is western historians. Want to say but the time of the book. The ancient scriptures are very clear. There were many old democracies in India. Twenty five hundred years ago contemporary with Athens spot where those boxes. We're not quite sure because it was no geographic graphics. There's no connection between those geographical separated states at that time was no pre out executive the great that she created connection between those two great civilizations and still the Chinese was still over the mountains and went connected. The Silk Trade hadn't really started here but there was democracy apparently and ancient democracy in India the same time as increase and the Buddha muddled his monastic organization around the Democratic Model. An INA democracy. There is a sort of a hierarchy in a sense another as lead like an Abbott. But the hasn't got absolute power. But there's no real strong hierarchy and that's always been the case sort of in most Buddhism so we cannot impose things on people and certainly being a Westerner and fighting that model house fake comfortable with than perhaps even enhancing their old model here in prices. Taco Stralia you find that far liberating is more difficult. Firstly speaking especially those of noble long time is much easier being an apple in Thailand in place where there is more understanding of hierarchy than here in Australia among Saad. Who is me no end? They never do that if I was entire that. But I'm happy with that sort of model here. Has Many different types of Buddhism has put his. Obviously because everybody has will take generally speaking. There are three main types usually. This is the tradition is a Theravada which is closest to the original Buddhism Mahayana which grew up later in China especially Tibetan Buddhism which was supposed to be part of Mahayana because tobacco invaded by China. And we'll have to bet. Monks came over to the West Tibetan. Buddhism is quite well known in the world. The Chinese invaded Tibet. Buddhism would still being Tibetan. Won't be so well known here. Sandwich Vietnamese puts the reason why Vietnamese Buddhism is probably the dominant puts them in. Australia is because many Vietnamese migrated here after the Vietnam War but the tear vodka put us. That's what is so which grew up in anchor and Burma and Thailand Pace. It like that and I always say that. China's probably the purest form of televised because the country was never colonized so never actually had the cultures of the West imposed upon it. Maybe go to Thailand. You know it's a fairly liberal country now. Almost everything goes they're very non fire. The last coup which was entitled a couple of weeks ago was a case in point just now on got killed. Ties came out on the street and that very day. All the toys were out getting their photographs with attacks and all the soldiers are supposed to be fighting a coup posing in front of the campus. But the story which really I was say decide. He shows that the Buddhist attitudes such things was told to me by a friend who was in Laos thirty five years ago during the Vietnam War. I tell you a couple of stories of this. This is really funny. He was an English haggis Guy and he was married to an American go. Now does Western capitalists are in the town of Gloom Boban which is the second city. They've been in there awhile actually. He confessed to me was that he made a bit of money and he was actually living a nice life investing some of his money in all sorts of stuff and living in Luther by having a nice time basically the Third World country very nice country and he thought settle down and they have enough money just to hang out with the rest of his life but then war came along and he said it was in one of these cafes bamboo and Thatch episode now religious food is in there having lunch one day and not so money. Other tables with government troops also having lunch and the government. The void is soldiers. And you almost dive down to the table. When he saw the communists. Come in with guns. Pathet Lao these were having a war together but before we could dive under the table to protect yourself from the shooter. He saw the communist troops. Go to another table. Put their guards against the war order their lunch because in Laos war stop for lunch which is much more important so there's no fighting this lunchtime for goodness sake. And he said he stayed on after the Communist took over that one day this he caught like a burglar in his house trying to still things this young boy and coming from British public school. He thought to that too was to put him over his near Miss Banking which he did but then the boy complained to the major who is the head military man in long power in that district of Lumumba and he was summoned to see the communist mater and it was really scared because now. Here's a Westerner this was a communist government and he thought he shot or something but he had to go there and the fellow said this that might have been okay in a public school in England but this communism. This is how you can't do that anymore. He said I've got to give you a punishment. Say about punishment embraced himself. Something terrible to happen and the communist Major said you will have to hold a party for three days and pay for it for everybody said really. That's okay I'll take that but can I come worse now. You can come as well but you have to pay for and that that was awesome in communist Laos where the Communists or whatever they like fun one anything else and they knew he was wealthy. So said okay. Excuse for you to hold a party so for three days. They all got drunk and what else they did for three days but he had to pay for is actually a punishment fits the crime but it was just an excuse to get Santa Paper Party. Yeah it's hard to say anything to old. Chinese SANCTA love the tiger but at a distance so no sometimes some people just so hot. They can be kind to them. You've got to withdraw so you don't go up to them to say I'm gay. Love Me. This withdrawal never take your love away from them. They can take it away from you. You never taken away from them. You wear them down because you have done and that's already praised. The Guy has been community for working so hard to get away. You are as many sacrifices of the Gay Pride Breakfast Arshi. I'll always remember. Who was the gay activists from Tasmania who repeal the gay? Anti Cairo's over there. Those of you don't know that story this feller forget what his name was now. That's what Ni. There was a law in Tasmania. If you had a homosexual relations sexual was a gates. A law imprisonable offence. So I think he did some activism to repeal the governor said on. We don't want to repeal. It's just too hard. You know what governments are like so I decided to have some affirmative action with his mates. They all had sex that night and they listed exactly what they did in detail and they all went to the police station the following morning to hand themselves in with the press behind them so the police will put in this. This embarrassing position done a crime which was on the on the books but That's to say prosecutors. Come on and I remember him saying that he was just really shit scared when he went in there because he didn't know whether they would actually go to jail. You put himself on the line with many many of his friends but the press were there. And eventually it was passed up to the government to the premier there. And they're paying me and you. If he authorizes prosecution him in the hall of the People in Tasmania will be completely humiliated so three months that the prosecution's when never carried through three months of always repealed. So what a beautiful story. That was how someone actually. They worked hard to make a better world for other people put themselves on the line so I really respected forty. It was very funny the way he told the story the way you went into that piece station. And this did in graphic detail exactly what took about half out to eat or that or something. Brilliant but if you are we chatted hallways no other people reject you so never allow one person to Spoil Your Day and this obviously the country strategy you. You've done the hard work. Your way. Up Is the other countries. I'm afraid of the ones. We really have to work to change. People's attitudes my responsibility. Because I'm supposed to be able to just leader talks in many places doing pretty well in thinking Singapore now because The previous Prime Minister go check tall. He came out and said gays a welcome in Singapore. We should be because he has not stopped was some question. I use my clout to say. Yeah guys put us which is the majority religion Singapore for the prices guys. No Problem Atto and he should never discriminate that henty Buddhist so I use my reputation Singapore to remake a strong statement there backing prime minister. He's actually why said when I was saying these things so obviously got back to him but he's just a senior minister now and the US is now the prime minister but little by little. Is that freedom to people what it's like. I don't know how long you've been a guy in Australia. But you know it was ten twenty years ago and they many places even that close to feed him yeah takes a while they should never take awhile sooner the better. There's a freedom for everybody any other comments you have you have. Yeah but his take on war was a mistake and there is an alternative and Buddhists have Buddhism's never gone to war for their religion and that's actually one of the wonderful things which made me proud to be a Buddhist. There has never been a coup state or war to spread Buddhism and This probably summed up by Gandhi's attitude he said I can see a thousand reasons to give my life. Of course I can't see one reason to take the life of another. And that's basically put his of sometimes people say yes but that's impractical. And I usually quote the following story which I wrote in the book open door with their heart. True story of what happened in Thailand. After Vietnam War tunnel was put his country. Sometimes it acts like a police country often. It doesn't but in this particular case after the House Cambodia and Vietnam within days. All the governments in Bangkok thought that tired and was coming next. It was called the domino theory so I was entitled to at that time when Laos Cambodia Vietnam fell as a young monk the place where I was a monk if you live in Bangkok and Hanoi and you go two-thirds away that's where my modesty was much closer to Hanoi Bankok in Ubon so the embassies contacted us about four five years. It was an evacuation plan. They expected the communists to come through. The government did but by that time I was fluid in I. I didn't allow Shen and my teacher. Jen-chou is becoming famous and many senior politicians and generals would come to him and ask questions and offer not be there listening in overhearing exactly what was going on. I had inside knowledge of the situation the generals in command of the army when a tall white about the communists in Laos and Cambodia surrounding Thailand. Because they knew they had exhausted all of their resources capturing those countries there were regrouping getting himself established in those countries. They didn't have enough energy resources to invade another country or they will really concerned about the big worry and it was serious where there were many Thai especially students who disaffected with the government who had left their universities and villages and towns were in the jungles indigenous Thai Communist army the insurgents and many areas of tired of a code pink areas controlled by the Communists and these word Laotian or Vietnamese or Cambodian. Camaros these ties. They're getting their training and their armaments over the border from the Communist. They're getting their food from the local villages and now that was a big problem and it was touch and go for many years where the insurgency would grow and take over the country. That's what the generals were worried about. Now that time I used to wondering in the remote areas of tired I go to the mountains and the forest to meditate and I had to really be careful because if I ran into those communists they would kill me. Usually after torturing. That's what they've done to many monks so when I was wondering you'd meet the soldiers and you ask them where the Communists because every patrol in angles and they point them out of the Communists are over there. That mountain is free. You can actually write a tight up there with some nice caves over there. So they're really really helpful. Was wondering if you know whether I was going through something. That's what you think that played For that was not the policy. The policy for many many years in Thailand was non violence even They knew where the communist bases were where they were doing that. Training where they were living they would never go in with a superior arguments with the jets with artillery. Bob Because I knew if you kill one communist you may fe- four five more friends relations. Want to avenge the death of someone they love and you make the others more committed. They had nonviolence. Even though many soldiers got killed ambush polycarbonates soldiers would never retaliate forgiveness. Nonviolence actually the forgive for something more because I had an amnesty. No questions asked Amnesty which was laughing for many many many years. If you want to give up your guns as a matter if you kill somebody give them up go back to school go back to university village. No questions asked so. There was an honorable way out. You always have to give your opposition an honorable way out if you WANNA stop the problem. If there's no honor for the other person then they're always keep fighting or keeps sticking the heels at even an argument you have your partner fees. Get them on the way out there anyway. I is embarrassment than the never going to give in. And lastly the old story the root problem. I know that sometimes that word has been used over much but that is imported. Why were these young people? These ties fighting the government while the most obvious reasons was poverty so the government went in to solve the problem. Simple solutions like putting loads into the village with the words came actresses and you see the critic and a school but also not as being resources in it. Men villages could export the purchase the nearest market and get some money. The same time the king of town in particular. It's a lot of personal resources. Putting an irrigation schemes dams and reservoirs and using the water in the fields so the vintages could grow a second crop so those areas started to become prosperous villages. Realized that people can't in Bangkok for them once sold you. I was in the meeting and I asked him. How's it going? You said I'm on patrol at the foot of the mountain. The communist about their know who they are they come down every now and again to get. Ross food from the village say hi. I never shoot them exactly what I do I show them. I knew what am I knew? Ghetto blaster. He said. That's the bullets which I shoot prosperity and it worked nonviolence forgiveness amnesty addressing the problem. Three solution one by one. They get themselves up. Gave up their guns went back to the video of universities and carried on until it was so few people in the jungles the evenly disguise themselves up the insurgency just with it away and I remember being reading a copy of Bangkok Post and some by entrepreneur was actually taking title to the caves. The headquarters of the insurgency was making a tidy profit by the best part of this story. Which really inspired me was when the leaders gave themselves up the top generals want to organize this treason. Makers I sort of wondered what would the government do to these guys does thickness go all the way to the top answer was you can't just give forgiveness in the ordinary way to these leaders. There were given amnesty. They went putting Gerald short but instead they were offered very senior positions in the government. Civil Service government realized. These people were highly committed very organized. Hard-working SELF-SACRIFICING WHY put them against the wall and shooting them? Let's make use of these people haven't worked for us. Get their ideas in our government so the leaders were given top positions. When I left Thailand that was the end of the story a few years ago I told that story in Sydney and the Thai Consulate Sydney was the audience listening and he stood up after this question. Time said Oh you said is true later development. Since you'll that left tight end. He said two of those radicals called leaders of the Communist insurgency. He said and now serving ministers in the government who've risen to the rank of minister and are now using Angie's to help the country. That's how you stop a war so well. I think the way to stop al Qaeda is to invite was given four amnesty and invite him to say be the treasurer of Great Pride Week. Because he's got a lot of money not he can't people poured rather than keeping them out as president in a boat or sometimes American presidents say some wise things one of his favorite sayings. And I really remember. This is better to have your enemy in the tent pissing out than outside the TAB pissing in grace thing that have in the Ted pissing out outside the tech so bigger enemies targeted. I K- it's about six thirty and I think that many of you got other things to do this evening. I know that you're not monks nuns. So you're not going to be like me going back to the monitoring this evening Saturday night after all so again. Thank you in fighting to give this talk this evening. I hope I haven't said anything at all. Any which way which is offensive to anybody whatsoever. Tried to present and put them in a way which I understand it traditionally Ando's personally we should the vessel going to have a great very good. Okay so those who you want to have a company or something that's available next door hopefully isn't it then? Okay otherwise have a great night. Have a great great part week.

Thailand partner Australia Vietnam US India Buddha Perth Liverpool Gay Community of Western Austr Free People Mercy Hospital Curtin University Singapore Western Australia England basketball officer
Season 6: Preview

Making Gay History

03:30 min | 1 year ago

Season 6: Preview

"I'm Eric Marcus and we're back with season six of making history over the coming weeks I'll be sharing with you five new episodes drawn from archive of more than one hundred interviews that I recorded decades ago for my oral history book about the T Q civil rights movement issue to these five history makers who stood up challenged the status quo and work to make the world a more free and just place for all LGBTQ people my ring finger cut off because I was still wearing my Annapolis Ring Barbara Smith challenged racism misogyny and the gay rights movement and Homophobia in collaboration phase of the movement thousands of Lgbtq people join you organizations across the country from Worcester to Wichita found their voices and demand to be heard or one APP or at making a history dot com so long until next time Berg one of the first people to challenge the ban on homosexuals serving openly in the military I had one commanding officer who is reported to have said that I should have abor gay community news found herself at odds with fellow. LGBTQ activists who advocated for what she considered sexual anarchy how far sexual for you're supposed to if you're not already a subscriber to making history please become one now on apple podcasts spotify stitcher or wherever you get your podcast or listen to all our episodes on the end CIA and they WanNa know

Eric Marcus gay community news Barbara Smith Berg CIA officer Worcester apple Wichita spotify
S1E10 / Dr. Tony Fauci: From One Pandemic to Another / Mark Harrington and Peter Staley

EPIDEMIC with Dr. Celine Gounder and Ronald Klain

24:07 min | 8 months ago

S1E10 / Dr. Tony Fauci: From One Pandemic to Another / Mark Harrington and Peter Staley

"I'm Dr Selene counter. And this is epidemic. Today is Friday April tenth on April. Seventh Tony Fao. She the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases spoke at the White House's Daily Kronen virus press briefing he and Dr. Deborah Burke said that cove nineteen is killing a disproportionate number of African Americans. The reason disparities in our health system. Sometimes when you're in the middle of crises like we all now with the corona virus it really does have ultimately shine a very bright light on some of the real weaknesses and foibles in our society. And some of you know I've the greater of my professional career has been defined by HIV AIDS. And if you go back then during that period of time when they was extraordinarily stigma particularly against the gay community and it was only when the world realized how. The Gay community responded to this outbreak with incredible courage and dignity and strength and activism. That I think that really changed. Some of the stigma against the gay community Very much so I see a similarity here because health disparities have always existed for the African American community but here again with the crisis how. It's shining a bright light on how it's unacceptable that is and today's show we're going to look the legacy of the AIDS crisis and how the US response to that pandemic thirty years ago is shaping our handling Cova nineteen today. Our guest today are Mark Harrington and Peter Staley mark and Peter were both members of act up and helped found the Treatment Action Group. They both were closely with Dr Vouch. E in the nineteen eighties and Nineteen Ninety S. We'll hear about their experiences activists with the Group Act up how their advocacy around AIDS treatments changed how the NIH and FDA do clinical trials. And even what a dinner party with. Tony Fouled. She is like for the people who lived through the AIDS. Pandemic there's something disturbingly familiar about. Cove it nineteen the very beginning of this. Covert outbreak was triggering for almost all the survivors of what are called the plague years for AIDS in the eighties and nineties. This is Peter Staley when he says the plague years he's talking about a time when almost nothing was known about. Hiv people were dying from a strange disease no one had ever seen before. They didn't know that. The disease attacking people's immune systems was caused by a virus in those days game in all over the country. You're very dot. Aids would wait anxiously for article in Science Times in The New York Times which came out on Tuesdays hopes that there would be some article that was not a flood of information. This is Mark Harrington. We have an incompetent and bullet president just as just as we get in the eighties president. Reagan who really didn't do anything about AIDS for the first six or seven years gay men people of color an injection drug users were all dying at alarming rates by Nineteen eighty-seven Peter and mark and a lot of other people. Were really angry over. Thirteen thousand people died of AIDS in the United States that year alone and that's when act up started country never seen anything like us. They had never seen hundreds of gays and lesbians getting angry about anything. We were this community that most people did not want to think about or realized was out there in such numbers here. We were angry determined and Penny by the press and a very sympathetic way because we were dying. Dr Tony Fao. She is a household name today but back in the nineteen eighties. Most Americans had never heard of him much less the place where he worked in Nineteen eighty-four he had just been named director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. At the I. H and that's where Peter and Mark Vouch e Brooklyn accent. That guy you you feel like you WanNa have a beer with who you can tell right. Away is super knowledgeable and super smart but explains things to you in a way that you and you start trusting him within a minute. That's the same Guy. I met in nineteen eighty eight but that fondness wasn't always there Peter and mark and others act up. Were not happy with an I. H Restrictive clinical trials poor communication with the communities affected by AIDS and a general lack of urgency. We felt that the whole research effort needed to become much more attuned to reflect the real world population that were affected by HIV and we took our concerns to Dr Couch over a period of years from eighty nine to really present where we would say. Look we need you to use your authority over the scientists to make them study. Things that are doing equal act wanted to be part of the process they wanted patient advocates to sit on all the committees and they wanted those advocates to have a vote. Why is it important that affected communities have a say in how the scientists done? The answer is because we bring a unique perspective to the table. That is not always heard. You need someone in that community who can work as an intermediary between the researchers and the patients activists showing up at the NIH making demands was not business as usual in the nineteen eighty s physicians and researchers. Were not working with activists but foul. She felt differently. What was really I? Think visionary about needs leadership in those years whereas a lot of the other scientists saw as being disrupted. I know nothing's kind of recognized early on that we had a lot to contribute and it would make it would make their effort more effective and stronger and Austin faster so foul. She asked one of his deputies at NIH. A gay man named Dr James Hill to help bridge the gap. Tony wanted to upgrade his relationship with the New York activists from occasional one hour meetings in his office to three our dinners with multiple bottles of wine. He brilliantly thought having Jim Hill host them at his lovely townhouse on Capitol Hill would put us at ease. It would kind of be like Switzerland for all of us. You know this neutral territory where we all felt comfortable. Tony Pouch it turns out is a great cook. They all became friends but Peter says there was a balancing act between their friendship and making sure they got what they needed from Fao cheesy and the NIH. Our job was to put Tony between a rock and a hard place We were the rock and the hard place where these older and more esteemed immunologists biologist who were not willing to let us in these researchers didn't want to answer to activists they had their own ideas about how the Research Chicago but act up was tired of waiting. I was tasked with giving him the bad news. I said Tony. We need to tell you that we're planning a gigantic demonstration at the NIH over these issues. That we've been talking with you about for months and we're we're just not getting the answers. We should beginning and he was caught off guard. He tried to talk us out of it. He tried to ask for more time and I said well it's GONNA take us a couple months to prepare this gigantic demonstration. So yeah sure. We'll cancel it. If you can give us everything we want. The months went by but their demands were never met so on. May Twenty First One thousand nine hundred ninety thousands of act up members occupied the NIH campus. We're talking about the fact that people have other jobs. We're talking about the fact that they don't care about women they don't care about children and trauma in addition folks. We're we're not gonNA tolerate it anymore. Peter was one of the first to get arrested. And this big burly cop had me with my hands tied behind my back. With one of those zip-line things And he was dragging me down the hall of Building Thirty One. I see coming apple down the hall. There's Tony Vouch -I with his white lab coat and Walking towards me and he goes Peter he recognized me like a. Tony he says are you okay and I said Yeah just doing my job Said how about you you said Yeah. We're we're trying to keep things operating while you've gotta surrounded said well you know we'll talk later? And we both kind of chuckled. As I got walked past him in the cop was looking at us. Like who do my gun on my arm here the protest was called storm the NIH. It was one of the biggest demonstrations act up ever organized. I should cap this off by saying it was successful two months later in June of Nineteen Ninety at the International AIDS Conference. The executive committee had a meeting there with Tony and they caved. Act Up got what they wanted. Patient advocates with voice on the trial committees something. That's now standard on all in h trials and more. Hiv trials included people of Color and women. We started dramatically improving clinical trial designs. So that they enrolled quickly and got answers. Faster storm the. Nih made the research process accountable to patients and streamline the way drugs get approved in the United States something. That's on a lot of people's minds right now. How do you balance the needs of good science when people are desperate for treatment? Now you know I'm thinking now. In terms of the context of covert. Nineteen a number of the folks. The administration now have been big proponents of right to try you know. Is there such a thing as giving access to quickly or approving too quickly? Yes it's activist. Learned that the hard way we found ourselves in one thousand nine hundred eighty to ninety three with three or four AIDS drugs on the market but the death rate was continuing to rise. We had added a few months to people's lives here there but HIV was clobbering. Us still every year is just getting worse. So we've been hearing a lot just as one example about hydroxy chloroquine and its role in treating Cova. Based on the experience you had with drug development and approval. What is your reaction to that? We are totally in agreement with On this that You know not so fast. We do have to prove this sciences about doing the most good for the greatest number and AIDS activism was able to speed that up. But you can't throw away the foundation. That's what AIDS activists learned the hard way the very first thing we screamed about in nineteen eighty seven. We complained about placebos. We were wrong. We were wrong about that. Placebos are morally correct. And in times like this. They are absolutely necessary. You can't just tell everybody to rush to their pharmacy and start taking something. No matter how desperate they might be exactly you can really cause mass harm another thing in common with the AIDS. Pandemic is the challenge of getting people to care about something that they think will never affect them. We've always tried to build on a base of social solidarity. What are chance when we act up we would be sitting blocking traffic? Somewhere and getting arrested would be That we're fighting for your life to mark says act up focused on that message of solidarity that we're all in this together but there was another reason. Mark thinks the tide change in their favor the epidemic and gotten so big with fifty thousand dollars per year. Probably there was a tipping point. Where at some point most Americans might have known somebody who died of AIDS or might have known somebody who knew whose family was affected by it and I think it caused kind of a sea change in the way the American people we ask you to to the epidemic and all sorts of the groups affected by. Do you think people really had to know someone who is infected for this to really get through that sort of my concern with crow virus that it's only once it hits a community that people know somebody or they themselves are affected that they will take the seriously and by then it might be too late by then it is too late medieval spins the whole phase in a state of terror knowing that we've been expose not knowing your status not knowing whether we were going to live or die and I think that the vast majority of the population now has exactly the same feeling where they don't know what they've been exposed. They don't know what they're going to get sick. Every single person is at risk. Mark Remembers how the Gay Community and other struggling with AIDS. Were brushed aside as disposable today. Some politicians are making similar. Comparisons with elderly Americans. That's very dangerous when ANY SOCIETY GETS POINT WIN. Really what we should be doing scaling up so that we don't have those shortages so we don't have to make those horrible decisions at the side of the sick and the dying is to make sure that we do have enough. Pbs LATER ISN'T ICU. Beds and staps that we can take care of the surge when it happens rather than sit there and deciding she lives dying that mobilizing people in the age of Corona virus is very different than during the AIDS pandemic. What was so great about. How was it? You can leave your house where you were feeling isolated and afraid and helpless and go to a group like act up and start doing political action. Educating Yourself Start Educating your community and go straight together somewhere and now you know everyone's locked in so we can't do that right. We didn't well. We can get together on conference calls or email list serves but we can't go demonstrate somewhere. 'cause it's dangerous and we can't even go to a meeting to planet so we're GonNa have to alter our activism to more digital and virtual and so that's exactly what mark and Peter and others are doing at the beginning of March then a group of other scientists epidemiologists and activists founded the cove working group of New York. A lot of are just really staggered by disbelief about being confident that this administration has shown in the slow roll out of the. Us made test the whole wasted month of February where we could have rolled out that test quickly and got ahead of the virus you know with other countries have been testing thousands and thousands of people. We were testing in the tends here in New York City until late February when we finally were outraged right out and wrote a letter to the feds and asked them to let me test by late February than the feds allowed in New York City New York state to start doing their own. Vcr and we started testing a lot higher volumes. And not. Unfortunately it was a little late because we already had a lot of undiagnosed infection here in the city and We're now seeing the explosive consequences of that month. Long delay. They're using the same skills they developed during the AIDS crisis to mobilize support for health care workers and patients struggling with Kovic nineteen. We're mostly running interference between frontline public health officials and politicians. That are not acting quick enough trying to help the Department of Health officials in New York City the Department of Health officials in New York state and our public health officials on the White House Task Force to help them build up a political army around them that makes sure that their voices are heard and that they ultimately win the arguments against sometimes hesitant political leadership. We've had multiple victories. But just like as we're seeing the death count rise and rise so it's been frustrating. Peter says the slow response to Kovic nineteen by New York City mayor. Bill de Blasio or president. Trump is nothing new. We've seen again and again. Political leaders fail at addressing new epidemics mostly because of A. They don't understand them. There's a level of denial and the experts don't have the power. The experts who fully recognized from day one. The potential seriousness cannot pull the political levers to get society to do the right thing from day. One Peter says all you need to do is look back to how different governments responded to the AIDS crisis in the Reagan administration. He ceded the entire administration with appointments From the religious right etc that were very cynical of expertise and Reagan. Himself was cynical of it but on the other side of the ocean we had an equally conservative government. Margaret Thatcher running the UK. And she did not have this anti expertise viewpoint so she actually brought in the epidemic. Collagen the experts in fighting epidemics. And she actually listened to them. They're epidemic to this day is about a one third the size of the. Us's epidemic on on a per one hundred thousand population basis Reagan and Thatcher. Obviously historians put them in kind of the same camp in many many categories but here was one where they were apples and oranges and it all came down to. I think a basic trust of expertise but Peter does have a lot of faith in Dr Falcon his team. Peter and mark still get together with Ouchi over dinner today when we asked Tony Foul she over one of our dinners with him for years ago when he turned seventy five if he was planning on retiring and he he shot that down and said you know on. My health is great. I got another ten years in me and he explained. He was really doing it because he wanted to. Still be at his desk when we finally you know got back scenes for HIV AIDS or or functional cure that he was really sticking around. Finish the job on AIDS. Which is the whole reason. We're still around doing this activism. That's why he was here at this moment for will end up being one of the worst pandemics in human history and right now I think if we do save a million lives in the US. It'll be because of the Tony Fao Cheese. In the BERKS- almost eighty million people have died from HIV AIDS worldwide. Since the start of that pandemic there are lots of parallels between the AIDS pandemic and the cove in nineteen pandemic today infectious diseases whether that's HIV or corona virus often fall most heavily on the shoulders of the most marginalized the least powerful the poorest communities since the early nineteen eighties HIV has come to disproportionately affect people of color. Not just gay men. These diseases magnify long standing social an economic inequities as with HIV. Politicians have been slow to act weighing the political risks of doing so against the lives at stake and in that calculation. It's clear that some lives are deemed more valuable than others. There's also been desperation for treatment whether that was for HIV or Cova nineteen today but one thing early AIDS activists like mark. Computer learned is that science doesn't need to be the enemy. One major difference though between those early years of the AIDS pandemic and Kobe nineteen the pace at which science moves and through it. All has been. Tony Vouch E. He's the kind of guy who sees things through. And that's reassuring at a time like this. He's in it for the long haul. Epidemic is brought to you by just human productions. Today's episode was produced by Jack. Dyer me our music is by the blue dots. Sessions archival audio in. This episode was from the film United in Anger. A history of act up courtesy of the equality archive our interns. Are Sonia. Baragua Isabel Ricky and Claire Halverson? Isabel is a masters student. And Clair's an Undergrad. They're both studying epidemiology at the University of Minnesota. If you enjoy the show please tell a friend about it today. And if you haven't already done so leave us a review on Apple. Podcast helps more people find out about the show. You can learn more about this. Podcast how to engage with us on social media and had a support the podcast at epidemic dot. Fm that's epidemic dot f. m. just human productions SA- five. Oh One C. Three non profit organization your donations to support our podcasts are tax deductible go to epidemic DOT FM to make a donation. We release academic twice a week on Tuesdays and Fridays but producing a podcast costs money. We've got to pay Zach so please make a donation helps keep this going. Check out our sister. Podcast American diagnosis. You could find it wherever you listen to podcasts. Or American diagnosis DOT FM. On American diagnosis. We cover some of the biggest public health challenges affecting the nation today in season one we covered youth and mental health in season to the OPIOID overdose crisis and in season. Three gun violence in America. I'm Dr Celine Gown under for listening to epidemic.

AIDS Peter Staley Dr Tony Fao United States NIH HIV Mark Epidemic New York City National Institute of Allergy Tony Vouch Mark Harrington Gay Community Cova Pandemic apple Tony Fouled director International AIDS Conference president
Larry Kramer Wouldn't Be Quiet

What Next | Daily News and Analysis

23:00 min | 6 months ago

Larry Kramer Wouldn't Be Quiet

"Hey everyone as we head into another weekend of potential protests I want to hear how you're doing. If you're going out to make yourself heard. How are you preparing to demonstrate in the middle of the pandemic? If you've already been out, there was the moment that stuck with you when you got back. Give us a call. Let us know where it two zero, two, eight, eight, eight, two five eight. Thanks now onto the show. When I think about Larry, Kramer the AIDS activists who died last week at the age of eighty four. I can hear his voice loud urgent filled with this. Anger. Play. Forty, MILLION INFECTED PEOPLE IS A. Old nobody active it. This is a clip that started making the rounds. Last week. It was recorded thirty years ago. Larry is expressing frustration with the pace of HIV, research and drug development. We are in the worst shape we have act ever ever been in. Nothing is working. None of that you thought meth green is working. One of the funny things about Larry Kramer. Though is that until he opened his mouth, he didn't read as particularly angry. Visually what you can picture is a very unprepossessing, looking white Jewish man with a set classes and have fringe of White Hair Marquez is. A cultural critic. I heard you were overalls a lot. We're overall a lot, he he he wore a lot of big of turquoise jewelry. So the visual does not quite match the firebrand that you might imagine the last time Marx Larry it was at a benefit for the gay men's health crisis. An organization Larry founded to fight AIDS Larry, was winning some kind of lifetime achievement award. And the. Evening went on for dairy very long time. It was one of those you know. Everybody gets a turn to taught. Benefits and Larry was the grand finale of course. Everyone spoke and he got up and it was this very warm, touching moment, and then he made this long speech, during which he's essentially like ripped into half the audience for complacency or their failures or laziness or or ineffectual -ality our shortsightedness. That was a very. Larry Kramer moment. He was not going to be sentimentalize D- by this huge crowd into this old deer who fund in another era. Larry Kramer's life was shaped by pandemic and protest. Listening to old clips of him talking about HIV, it feels like he could be talking about the coronavirus. Listening to Larry Talk about his commitment. LGBT writes his words. Echo the chance that are filling American streets today. And Yeah Larry was tough uncompromising. But. Mark says there's something else. You can't make. Progress without. People like Larry Kramer. Today on the show remembering Larry Kramer. Because his life is full of lessons for today. I'm Mary. Harris, you're listening to what next stick with us? Hey listeners I wanna tell you about a new podcast from slate. It's called thrilling tales of modern capitalism. This show Zeros in on the daring, bold and weird ways. American companies have transformed themselves. Some of these stories are epic. Disasters Episode One is about how the Carnival Corporation, the world's biggest cruise line evades mishaps like the infamous two thousand thirteen. Cruise. Others are tales of skyrocketing success in an upcoming episode you'll learn about epic deems the maker of fortnight and how they spent years perfecting the perfect formula for a video game triumph for failure, every company has a story, and those stories are more thrilling than you might have imagined subscribe thrilling tales of modern capitalism on apple, podcasts or wherever you listen. Larry Kramer burned through his life as if he didn't expect to make it eighty four. He was a relentlessly hard worker as a writer and satirist. He was nominated for both an academy. Award and Pulitzer. But AIDS activism was his calling. Learn Grammar was an artist and he was activist most times. When you say that about someone, one of those things takes a back seat to the other. We have great artists who also contributed some activism to the world, and we have great activists who were also okay artists, but with Larry. You're talking about someone who was really important in both categories as A. He wrote Faggots, which was a really important step in gay novels in the Nineteen Seventies, and of course, the normal heart, which is a genuinely activists play, and a genuine work of art, which is an unbelievably tough combination to pull off and his art, like like faggots pissed a lot of people off right absolutely, Larry didn't write or do anything in the seventies or eighties without some gay people saying you're not helping the cause, you're hurting the cause. I mean the most the most famous essay he wrote piece called eleven hundred twelve and counting in the New York. Native, which was the first really major piece to sort of sound, a very very loud alarm from a gay man to. To the gay community about the AIDS epidemic infuriated a lot of gay people when it was published What was it that made people angry about it? Everyone was okay with shaking a fist at the Republican government, the Reagan administration, the scientific community, the medical community that was either ignoring this or demonizing people eleven hundred twelve and counting was that, but it was also a piece that said we have to wake up. Our community is sleepwalking through this Ed. We're walking into our own grants Larry really really took to task. People in the Gay Community who did not feel we're taking the AIDS crisis sufficiently seriously and Larry said we have to change our behavior because it's telling us. So he got used of being approved of being sex negative of being someone who hates gay people of being someone who hates case, sex, being someone who was mad to be left out of the Party and all the fun and wanted everybody else's fund destroyed I mean I. Think it's when you talk about his bravery as an activist. You have to talk about the bravery of. Being willing to take a stand that will alienate. Some of the people you know, Google should be near side. Part of part of Larry Kramer's outrage to me. It seems to come from the fact that he he had this privilege. He was white. He went to Yale. He had class status, but the AIDS. Crisis revealed that status could be ripped away. Is that the right way to understand him? I think it's a right way to understand him. Yes, I, mean it marry. As you said he was white male, he was Jewish, which was not in the nineteen fifties, necessarily a category of privilege, but nor was it in the nineteen fifties something that would exclude him from jail and exclude him from the halls of power so like. In some ways I think it is useful to Larry. Grammar as a white man of a certain generation who was comfortable with the idea of? Power with the institutions of. And who expected to to have it not only. Is that okay in my book for an activist? It's necessary I mean you know I'm married to Tony Kushner and he wrote a piece about Larry this last week in the New, York Times where he said that Larry was not. He was not a it all down activists, you know. He was prepared to raise institutions of power R.. A. Z. NOT OUR S. If, he didn't have access to them, but Tony wrote was what was the access, not the raising he wanted. In to the government. He wanted into the New York Times. He wanted people in powerful positions to hear him and open those doors, and he was willing to do whatever it took to make that happen and and I deserve to be here Rice's my place. Absolutely, I mean that the the word entitlement is so loaded to us right now, but Larry maybe because of his race gender time he lived in at maybe because of his circumstances, and maybe because of his personality, who he was self entitled to that kind of access to power. That kind of entitlement I think is really valuable. You belong there you have you have as much right to power as everyone who has power. For thirty five years, fighting for access to power is exactly what Larry Kramer did so two years after eleven, hundred and twelve in Canada was published in the New York Larry, did the first of the two things that were sort of perhaps his most lasting legacy is an activist which was founded Cuyo GMAC the game health crisis, and I believe a couple of years after that. He founded. The AIDS coalition to unleash power, which we now know as act up, and which is still around as GMAC. Act Up became an incredibly important protest group and GM HCC over the years and decades Moved from being a small local grassroots organization to you know a major national fundraiser and sort of center point for a gay activism. I think it's important to remember the anger. That act up channeled I wonder if there's one scene one protest that would do that for our listeners will The one I'm thinking of is Saint Patrick's Cathedral. Very famous protest where in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, nine them cardinal, John, O'Connor was giving a mass at Saint, Patrick's nearest city and act up. Disrupted it. They were specifically protesting was that O'Connor was against teaching, safe sex in public schools and fighting against the distribution of condoms and they they lay down in in the church. I mean and Saint. Patrick's is big. That was an incredibly important protest because. The sort of mainstream reaction to it was this goes too far. I you know I'm sorry for gay people, but how dare they disrupt Catholic mass, and there a portion of the gay community that was like this hearts are caused. We look like extremists. We don't have anything to gain by alienating Catholics this way and I think that. One thing Larry Kramer. Really understood was that not only would an activist movement survive mainstream accusations of bad taste. Or inappropriateness, but the sometimes you had to do that. You literally had to like. Lay Down your body in an ideal of Saint Patrick's Cathedral. You had to yell at the top Catholic. Church official in New York. City you're killing us to get people to pay attention. I WANNA. Talk a little bit about Larry Kramer's relationship with Tony Fauci. Because vouches, of course, he's helping to lead the response to the coronavirus right now and he also worked in AIDS at hd for years and years. And I feel like their relationship is instructive. Because it shows how two people can respect each other, even if they don't necessarily agree and they don't have to be nice to each other, they can push each other like I found the C. Span clip from nineteen ninety-three. Larry ANTONIACCI are they're together? They're talking about a new presidential aides. Task Force. and Larry Kramer is just so frustrated every time Tony wants to go to the toilet. Ten committees have to vote about giving him permission. That's what the glass why. There's not a cure for anything. He literally says to Tony Thou-. She he says the president is taking Tony's balls away I. don't want another dime. If somebody. The brain was there right now to to supervise how it was spent, you'd get a lot more bang for the buck I. I wonder if you can talk about their relationship and describe it because it seems so unique, but also very powerful. You know I think as we watched Anthony Fauci over the last three months. We've seen that he is an incredibly patient person who you know. We have decades of evidence to by the fact that entered Anthony's actually can withstand a lot if he thinks. Public Health goal is. Worth it worth withstanding that step and I think when you talk about the relationship between Larry Bremer and and voucher you. You have to give Voucher credit for never walking away from that relationship, he is someone who is willing to be excoriated willing to be yelled at and doesn't stop listening. The the lesson of his career is is really different. Does the lesson of of Larry Kramer's and it's not a lesson for activists. It's a lesson for the people who activists are yelling at angry at which is, don't prioritize your sense of personal injury or your hurt feelings. You know if someone is yelling at you angrily. Don't make the most important part of your. Feelings the fact that they're angry and you don't like being yelled at listen to what they're angry about and see if they have a point and be honest with yourself about whether they're right, and if they are right, figure out how to work with. Felt she kept coming back and Larry Kramer did not give up on having that fight, you know. He kept that relationship going privately because he knew it was important, he knew it was important to to the cause, and maybe he also liked him, you know. I mean I think there's no question that Kramer had respect for him. Yeah, you mentioned that that FAUCI memorialize. Larry Kramer this past week. He attacked me. He called me a murderer. He called me an incompetent idiot. Publicly, but then as I got to listen to what he had to say, and realized that he was making some very important points that we in the establishment needed to listen to We surprised by anything he said. I was surprised me about what she said was how warm it was about about Larry. Kramer wasn't the way he memorialize. Larry Kramer was not at a town of sort of. The grudging respect of an adversary, he clearly really liked him and respected him. I found this other moment of Larry Kramer. Talking and he's talking about what change looks like. It's from back in nineteen ninety-three. He's telling the audience you have power. Your power is your voice, but just before that he says something else which he talks about red ribbons. Any says I'm sick of them and I don't wear them anymore. Because instead of wearing a ribbon. He wants people to do something. And it stood out to me because this moment we're in now, I think a lot of people are struggling with what they can do. How can how can they be allies to the people around them? Like just this week? We had this instagram blackout. People just putting black squares house like I. Wonder what Larry Kramer would have thought of that. I would never want to speak for Larry because I still believe that he has the power to. Yell, at someone for getting it wrong, but I don't think that Larry Kramer a have been a big fan of the empty gesture or a visual gesture, whether it was a red ribbon or a a black instagram square that stands in place of actually doing something I especially don't think he would have been a fan of the point of that particular protest this week. Which is, everyone should stop talking. Act Up theme was silence. Equals death right right. Like gesture all activism and I'm not disparaging this for for people who want to do it like in some ways I think on a personal level. It is better than nothing I think there are probably some people who freaked out members of their family by doing that. You know like a a meaningless gesture for corporation can be a meaningful gesture for one particular person, so we shouldn't. We shouldn't imagine that you know. The impact of someone in a small red state town in Nineteen, ninety-three, wearing a red ribbon, and be the only person in his community to do it. That would have been real much more real than you know. A every single celebrity on the Golden Globe Story. It's not a one sought. Activism and forms of activism are not a one-size-fits-all thing, but he was certainly not a big fan of empty gestures. Kramer! Larry Kramer had the singular devotion to lgbt liberation. But the moment we're in now is about so much at once like there's a health crisis and protests against police violence and this economic devastation. I wonder if that complexity makes replicating what Kramer did. which was so focused? Harder. Yeah? I think I. Think it's really hard, but I also think it's. It's important to remember that what? Larry Kramer did was not. A completely worked out preplanned strategy that started in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, three, with eleven, hundred twelve accounting and anticipated. That would unfold. It was it was full of fits and starts was full of organizations that he started, and then had a bitter rift with you know it was. It changed along the way as the world changes, the plague changed, and so you know if there's a lesson for today for activists it's. It's probably that you've to wake up. At like you have to keep your eye on the long term goal, but you also have to wake up. Every day and think okay. Where are we right now? What circumstances have changed since yesterday? How do I need to respond to this moment? And I think that is the great challenge in my opinion for for for activists right now to be both farsighted and extremely short term to be both idealistic and pragmatic to think about you know today into the horizon, but those are not to get discouraged by. Mess along the way because the work is messy. Yes I think that's a great point. Don't get discouraged by mess because. It's been like to put it very very very mildly a messy week. You know and a messy year and. When there is mess, there will always be people who are ready to say well. It's just a shame that the whole point of the protest was ruined by Blah Blah. It wasn't it isn't. A? Marquess. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. You can find mark cultural criticism in New, York magazine. And that's the show what next is produced by Mary. Wilson Jason Leone and Daniel Hewitt as always. We have help from benedict and leash GUMRI. Lizzie. O'Leary is going to be bagging your feet tomorrow with what next TVD and I will catch you right back here on Monday. have a safe weekend.

Larry Kramer Marx Larry Larry Talk AIDS Larry ANTONIACCI Larry Bremer New York Tony Gay Community AIDS Saint Patrick's Cathedral INFECTED Carnival Corporation New York Times Nineteen Seventies Tony Kushner Google Anthony Fauci Mark instagram
Season 6: Episode 4: Nancy Walker

Making Gay History

27:08 min | 1 year ago

Season 6: Episode 4: Nancy Walker

"Hi this is Eric. We'll get making gay history in just a moment but I I've got a podcast recommendation for you. Making a history senior producer honey rouse is also the host and producer of. Can we talk. It's a podcast from the Jewish women's archive that share stories about gender history history and Jewish culture. Last month's episode can we talk features are really moving in revealing interview with Trans Activist Abbie Stein. Abby grew up in Hasidic Acidic community in Brooklyn New York and she spoke mostly Yiddish until she was nineteen. She became a rabbi got married. Had A son and then transitioned when she was twenty. One one as you might imagine. She paid a high price in her interview with Nani. Abby speaks candidly about faith gender identity and activism activism. I hope you'll have listen subscribed to can we talk wherever you get your podcast or find it at J. W. A.. Dot Org backslash. Can we talk now. Back to making history I'm Eric Marcus and this is making a history. Nancy Walker had a type she liked the brainy ones in nineteen sixty two. When Nancy was in her late twenties she met Penny Penny was smart? It is a whip wise beyond her eighteen years and she read James Joyce Nancy was impressed. The two fell in love and became life partners by the time. Nancy and Penny got involved in the gay rights movement in the Early Nineteen Seventy S. They were living in Toronto Canada where he was attending graduate school. That's where they joined the first gay organization in the Mid Seventy S. They moved back to the US to Boston. Massachusetts and Nancy soon volunteer to work at a weekly newspaper called Gay Community News. As you know from our previous episodes the Post stonewall years saw an explosion of new gay rights organizations and along with the new organizations organizations came scores of new publications the Gay Community News or CNN was among the more prominent and influential Gay Liberation Paper with the national readership readership. Nancy was in her forties when she joined she was an outspoken New Yorker and a moderate pragmatist. It's no surprise that Nancy and the younger more radical staff didn't always see eye to eye. So here's the scene. He's the winter of Nineteen eighty-nine and I've just is travel to the Jamaica Plain neighborhood of Boston where Nancy and Penny share a classic Victorian House complete with a turret and peeling paint. They've been a couple for a long time and it shows all Nancy night. Talk Pennies on hand to offer tea chime in and help Nancy when her memory fails her. Nancy is sitting in a comfortable upholstered chair. She's dressing dark slacks and a light colored blouse which is where I clicked my microphone. I press record interview with Nancy Walker Sunday December tenth. Nineteen eighty-nine at the home of Nancy Walker in Jamaica Plains and Massachusetts interviewers. Eric Marcus tape one side one. I had gotten fed up with pretending to be straight. We'd been together nine years and we had no gay gay friends. So that's when we first went to New York and then we went back to Canada. We would just on vacation in New York went back. That must've Vince. Seventy one or seventy two. I'm not sure took us. Even though we thought we were big shots took us a long time. They get the guts to go. Remember kept finding excuses uses not to go. It's always something wrong. Finally we went and we looked around the room and so people like our grandmothers. I said what the Hell is this what we were afraid of. And that was the beginning and then we went to Canada and so I notice a little newspaper that talked about home files what they call the home of Fire Organization should. Hey let's call and see what it's about and we did. That was seventy two. We first got involved. Well he belonged to the community home. Five Association Toronto better known as Chat and what was the group's reason for being. Oh I think it was An umbrella group for everything for for counseling for social purposes. They even I suppose. Did some legal work the law had changed. The law was universally changed to a consenting adult law in Canada so they had legal advantages that we didn't have that they didn't have the socialist. Matt it's it was it. It was still terribly condemned. People were very conservative there. I remember in Canada trying so hard to get any gay gay publications to find out what was going on in the world and there was one little sleazy bookstore that carried gay papers. They had things like that but be willing to go into what was labeled and known to the public as a filthy bookstore and when we moved here there was a little note. You you know little convenience store across the street from the apartment we lived in and I walked in there and LO and behold his gay newspaper the Gay Community News. It was a quarter order so I bought this thing and I said hey look. It's out in the open. It's okay we don't have to do sleazy things to be gay and didn't know at at the time I was GONNA wind up making the newspaper and not having to pay for it. I think the reason I worked there was. I didn't want water for the news did you. Nineteen seventy six in May nineteen seventy six. What was unlikely that? What was the operation like physical kinds of people? It was unbelievable up wrong sleep flight of stairs into a big open space. That was a mess they had to. It worked very hard to get. What little materials they could? They had no money never had any money. And there were some scruffy looking people very radical people any kind of dress you can imagine. They wore a lot of the people. I knew there are now gone because of AIDS was suicide I mean the voice had long hair every kind of hair. Every kind of everything was a real mixed bag was not a luxurious place. But it was home it meant a great deal to all of us. Every view was gone. Maybe what I'm trying to say because that's how I really I felt. was that somebody else in the rest of the world not fully honest that you could be yourself and we. We didn't get along with each other at all. Even the people who had the same political persuasions didn't get along but still we knew we were among our own you know. It's like a Jewish family. You may not get along but you know this is your place in the rest of it out there is the diaspora. It's not your place. So That's how oh I felt. I don't know how other people felt about. I just know they loved it terribly. Paper had to go on no matter what and it went through hell. It went through fire. They burn the place astound once and we just moved over to a place in Cambridge. That let us use their space and we never missed a week. That paper has been continuously we published since it started in two weeks during the year. They have vacations. It's quite a remarkable achievement. It was either the end of the seventies of the beginning of the eighties and it was devastating blow. Yes it was awesome right. I guess they figured they couldn't get us any other way they were going to do. They couldn't get us that way either. What was what was the purpose of purpose? Yeah I think I think the purpose was to get out of the gate National Gay newspaper. It was the only gate national weekly. It's gone on to something. I consider me three. We need contact with each other. You know there was still gay. People who didn't know there was anybody else in the world. It's hard coming from a place like New York. Imagine that but there there are people in Kentucky and Louisiana and places like that. That didn't know there were any of the gay people. I didn't know there were gay. Men I had no idea I was so delighted the first time I met an openly gay male. I can't tell you it's a brother somebody I can love. You know there were no. I don't think about I mean I didn't I grew up in my own. Little head issue. Weiji Museum in DC N. existence. It started before I got this only three years old with a mission that she was there. A awed yes. Oh if anything was holy was G. C. N. it was a tremendous sense of mission and we loved it and protected What it meant to me was finally all my life? I said I've got this great ideas and I would like somebody to know about them so finally I got a place where I could write and other people could read it. Let's go back to the beginning of interview with you beginning questions. What were you born? Nineteen thirty five. I was born on Saint Patrick's Day and I think he's just terrific because I wound up in a city where just in the city of Boston it a holiday day on where we one flower Fifth Avenue Hospital in New York. My mother was born there in thirty. One Yeah you see. I could've been your mother. That's where would you been in one thousand nine hundred five hundred. BJ have any recollection of that on the day itself. I know I wasn't Merrick. That's lived and I was terrified throughout the war because I had a warped perception. Maybe not so walked what was going on with Jews but they were being put an ovens and all I could think about was being put into an oven so I was quite nervous wreck until the war was. She thought they might come to me. I'm sure if we lost the war I was going to get cooked. So that's part of the reason. I love this this country so much that whenever my my my ex colleagues would not the country I think eight roster I am a Jew. There's no way I'm going anywhere and when I met Jewish people in Canada they said you know you are so aggressively Jewish. There's there's nowhere else in the world. But in America Fed Jews are open about being Jewish and proud of it. She said he keeps you mouth shots. I want an awful way to lose his goddamn closets all over the world. I've been closeted about being Jewish. I got enough trouble so I was always all my life of conscious of being Jewish and being thankful that I was here and and being a lesbian also. I'm still thankful I'm here with all due respect to my I walked progressive friends. This country isn't the enemy. UH system works. It may be the newest country in the civilized world. But it's the greatest one in my opinion so you're right place. I can hear how you could be significant odds with your comrades-in-arms because they hadn't lived through the war. Aw they didn't have the really intense feeling that if I hadn't been in this country I probably wouldn't exist at. Aw but when I was a kid I had a terrible time surviving my family. I wasn't what they wanted it. My mother was a perfect lady and she wanted little which he got a little girl she thought. Oh a little me. Well I wasn't. I wasn't at all like her. She wanted to dress me. Pretty looking dresses and I would climb trees and my underwear be hanging out of the tree and I would pick up worms and put them in my pockets and I was a real tomboy and they couldn't break me. I would defy them. I cannot remember a time when I didn't and I really felt at odds with the world and I didn't know why and I didn't think I was gay because I certainly like boys and then I meant the fellow I finally married at college was totally different type. He was gentile entitled born in Massachusetts Perfect Gentleman. He wouldn't say should it be at a mouthful. I don't know what he wanted with me. I never did understand then. It kept saying go away. Go find some Nice Schick. So what do you want with me. I'm going to ruin your life. He loved me. He thought I don't know. Did you ruin his life. No he got married again toward much older. You really wanted a mother. His mother it was. You don't want to hear this is complicated and not gay when did you. When did you realize that you were in fact I was already married? I was twenty years years old. I had met a girl at a conference in Christians and Jews National Conference of Christians and Jews and many the girl from the Bronx who was going to Hunter College names Valerie. She was blonde very dynamic. namic talking all the time. She was the first person I really really loved. And the minute I knew that I went to Jefferson. Did you want divorce and he said no you're grow it. Never did outgrow it. And she's got married a couple years after that went to California and the world had come to an end and then five years after that this one she shows and it was like Deja Vu. And how can this be happening a second time in my life. I can't lose it again because I'll go nuts. This one's stayed we fell in love. Oh God that was before Gay Liberation before we got involved in it and it was nine hundred and sixty two new from gay liberation no blowing when I met her. I didn't like men and I do like men and there was no sexual problem with men but the overwhelming emotional involvement with this young woman who got away and this one. Who didn't you? Did you know that wasn't one thousand nine hundred nineteen fifty four the valley and fifty four people talk about what Oh no discussion of it per I met other people at school who gave. We didn't have any kind kind of relationship. So it's just interesting to me to see that they were lesbian couples so I knew they existed. I knew I was one of them though. I couldn't relate to the things they did. I didn't in like bars. I never drank. I couldn't understand this stuff and there's some very tough women switchblade knives and things that was not for me. The woman I like would be an intellectual who lived in the Bronx and then went to California and then this one didn't go tapers and stuff that you wrote. The column was just sort of like our lives or whatever happened during that week wasn't all political. One of my favorite collins is the one about eight people in Z.. People always getting together. I squeeze the toothpaste from the bottom of the to break carefully. She wish sure and everything along those lines. It was a funny column. The next one I wrote was about bananas about the fact that we will by certain number. Nana's get down to the last banana. She won't keep eat it. She wants me to have it. I won't eat it because I want her. To have it. So the thing it's blacker and blacker and black uh-huh disgusting and finally gets thrown out and I managed to stretch that out for number of pages and after that for quite some time I would find bananas on my door knobs and that'd be people left me bananas all over the place and they were hysterical. It was very funny article so also true and I ended it with. Mother has just sent us some grapefruits. And we're going to go through the whole thing all over again with the grapefruit recall was was mostly us sort of like the perils of pauline purist has mostly because every once in a while I had a real opinion they didn't like it when Gay Pride Day Fella named Charlie Charlie Charlie shy WLI terribly terribly radical. He and a number of fellows have a group. I don't know if they still have it right the most outrageous stuff deliberately to upset people. What was the group that Charlie and Mike Fag rag? Oh God love you. I can't remember anything no it isn't I had the losing names and things the past year or so. Uh Wow. Charlie tore up his Harvard. Degree burn the Bible made such a stink stink that I hit the roof and wrote a speaking out Collard. Gay Pride Rance is a big deal and Charlie. It was worrying his Harvard role or something and burnt all this stuff. I was limited. I wanted to kill when I got back to the office and I I smoke was coming out of my typewriter. I thought that was the most deathly thing he could have done. Honest here we're trying to achieve something and this guy goes does with the most offensive thing he could think of to do. Never Mind Harvard but very in the Bible as much as a smart thing then we found out he did not burn or destroy his diploma. It was a photocopy so that's a kind of shit that I can't stand so I was very angry. I don't remember what I said but it was quite clear that I was angry. And Neil Miller where I think it was the news editor at the the time. Neil said they're going to call you a Nazi. I don't give a shit what they call me. Just publish it for denouncing Charlie. For God's at Seic so it was a terrible fight. The whole office was split on this. What was wrong with your physician? Why were people were very radical? And so I would say at least ninety percent of the people at any time and she was thoroughly radical and then some of them were mostly radical what what radical email. Oh radical burning the Bible radical denouncing the government hating the country and I was those the kind of people would say oh go live in Russia. See How long you'll ask. Theoretically we share common goal. We want a gay liberation. But what does it mean. Does it mean equal rights to me. That's all I wanted. They wanted to be able to walk doc into parks. Well that's wonderful but I wouldn't take my children. They reader sexual freedom isn't the thing we'd need now. We need some other things sex. That's what I meant. What does it how far sexual freedom supposed to go you allowed to have intercourse on the street corner here because you feel like doing how does that make you better than the dog? And I don't know that we're better but different what happens to civilization when people lose all the socialization and have sex with whom they please. We have to have a little little bit of self control. I'm sorry I'm interested in sexual freedom. Interested in human beings being able to live why constantly constantly offend the larger portion. The majority to whom you have to go with you and your hand if you want anything we don't have to kiss asses because I think that's undignified but you have to deal with these people in a way that makes sense. But that's how I thought they also believe that without the radicals to push the spearhead the movement. Nothing is going to happen because you can write a nice polite letter to your senator saying. Please vote for gay rights and they can say throw it in the garbage and as far as it gets if you make enough of a stink. They have to pay some kind of attention attention to you so I think there's a place for that but I don't think burning the Bible whenever camera in the city is focused on you. It's a good idea so I I was furious. Not that burning bibles offends me. No I'm not at all religious. I thought that from the point of view of trying to accomplish. ABC Burning the Bible. It was setting us back. You were really a thorn in the side of those who held with. They believed to be the only view about what gay rights should be. Maybe I was unpopular for another thing that I truly believe fat that we should deal with gay issues and not try to spread ourselves all over the world like it's at Rainbow Coalition stuff. I was not interested in dealing when I was dealing as a gay person looking for gay civil rights. I didn't want to get into women even need to blacks. I DIDN'T WANNA get into South America. I wanted to deal with gay issue so I was wrong for that too so I was wrong and maybe it is wrong. But that's how I felt you. Nine hundred eighty four. I think so what does it feel. What did you leave over? I was really tired of the hassle. Itchy and everything was a big battle I had no freedom. I had to constantly fight to put the thing in. They would always tell me. They didn't have space. They couldn't run the call when it was supposed to supposed to go every other week and finally got to be too much I think I just. It's like being there because it was uncomfortable but I don't dislike them. I think they're wonderful. I think the paper is the single greatest thing that I know and one of the most wonderful before experiences with when we were in Washington and everybody was marching with their groups and people saw batter and they came over and told how wonderful they thought we were or was it. Seventy nine must have been yes. It was October October. Seventy nine yes not. It was quite quite something. Yeah people who didn't know US except through. The paper ran over when they saw the banner all the way back driving back along along ninety five we have stop periodically to go to the bathroom. And you go into a Howard. Johnson's missy. All these people with their buttons we hadn't taken our buttons off so we saw all these people that were there and had shared this experience. I think the single most moving experience that I've had added in terms of the gay movement was that March on Washington. As far as you could see. There was a scene of gay people very peaceful so wonderful feeling what was so remarkable without seeing gay people in one place. One place was huge marches. In New York. It was that it was Washington the capital of our country and remember how I feel about this country being there being who we were. Not being machine gunned it was just a moving experience which finally gotten there and things. We're going to be different. We never GONNA get shot back in the closets ars again. It's still a long way to go. I think we certainly have made progress. Since the time we first got involved seventies. We certainly met some gay people. We finally did it. In addition to writing her column Nancy Walker also manage manage the papers classified section for several years not the most glamorous assignment that Nancy made it her own each week. She kicked off the personal ads of the short poem to you mousy mousy wildflower from porcupine sweet and silly sometimes wistful notes with inside jokes or more profound. From a nation's mousy of course was penny the doting if prickly porcupine was nancy in the spring of Nineteen eighty-three Nancy published several mousy poems. That suggested that perhaps always always not right in the mousy porcupine household alarmed readers across the country wrote in their concern forcing Nancy to reassure them that no mousy had not wandered off into a strangers bed that was just a foray into fiction and Queer Rodent. Love was indeed alive and well. After Nancy left in nineteen eighty four she wrote for bay-windows a more socially oriented gay newspaper. She also continued her work as secretary for Special Education in the Boston Public School all system. Nancy Walker died from complications of Breast Cancer on May Twentieth Nineteen ninety-six. She was sixty one years old penny. He's still lives in the house. They want share. Many thanks to everyone who makes making gay history possible senior producer no honey rouse producers. Josh Gwyn John Now Anderson Deputy Director of Taya Audio Engineer. Geoff town researcher Brian. Furry photo editor Michael Green and their social media team Cristiana Opinion Nick Porter and Daniela Ranko special. Thanks to generous Berman. And our founding editor and producer Sour Birmingham our theme music was composed by Fritz Myers. Making a history is a CO production of Pineapple Street studios with assistance from the New York Public Library's manuscripts and Archives Division and the one archives at the USC Z.. Libraries season six of this podcast has been made possible with funding from Jonathan. Logan Family Foundation a columnist foundation. Broadway cares equity fights AIDS. The Small Change Change Foundation ruin in Andhra press and our listeners including rick. Yori thanks rick stay in touch with making a history by signing up for our newsletter. He's leading at making a history dot com. Our website is also where you'll find previous episodes archival photos full transcripts and additional information on each of the people and stories stories feature and with the holidays fast approaching. We've got the perfect gift for making Gay History Fan in your life from t shirts and pillows two mugs and tote bags you'll find a link to our online store at making a history dot com so long until next time.

James Joyce Nancy Nancy Walker Gay Community News New York Canada Eric Marcus Charlie Charlie Charlie Massachusetts Boston US AIDS Toronto Washington producer Nani Penny Penny Abby host and producer Neil Miller CNN
Conservatives and the LGTBQ community with Shane Wenzel

Cor's Notes

39:34 min | 4 months ago

Conservatives and the LGTBQ community with Shane Wenzel

"Welcome the cores notes. I'm cory Morgan. In this episode. I sat down with the president of Shane Helms Shane Wenzel chairman and outspoken conservative in Calgary for some years now just a little over two years ago. She and Chemo publicly is a gay man. When he published his wedding pictures with his husband mad on social media, we discussed the reaction from the conservative community as well as Shane's reception among the Lgbtq community in the challenges came along with that. I want to with the story and getting to actually how I found a great deal more, but it was two and a half years ago when wintertime I was sitting in my bar. Watching twitter is I always do. working and I saw this tweet pop up with from you posted a a wedding picture and I clicked on it. And Low and behold. Your the man. He's Gary. Cool okay. So I hit like and we've done I. Mean I just didn't own right Elliot really happy. But the big thing that was striking was not too long. You sent me a private message thanking me for giving. That tweet alike It's not typical though that thanks for liking a tweet and I'm just wondering if you've spoken along the lines of you were happy to see conservatives. Being. Happy about your wedding and your marriage and so on so were you concerned about a negative reaction when you put that Upenn of publicly? Well, yeah I mean I I came out late in life. I came up at forty two years old. Except you know I. I was ready to do that probably about a year before, but you know I, mean you. You hit a few roadblocks you do know people within the industry and within. You? Know within you know that conservative rank where they're not totally comfortable with you know with with someone from the Lgbtq community being part of their. So, you're kind of apprehensive at the time. And I. Guess That's why I sent the message. Because you know coming out I came out on facebook in this case I came out. You know happily married to to Matthew. Over twitter over every other platform, and you know it was just nice when you had conservative leaning people compliment you on that. You think Oh God. I'm actually not alone. People do care. And that's great to hear to. To get to two digit any negative feedback from people at that time I probably did have a few kind of negative comments and I did have a few people, and follow me and You know I mean that's where I I guess I really learned to initiate. That's a very important life skill anything for anybody. To come across so. That came out. Sometime after you Komo personally. Obviously, you didn't come just from the point coming out straight to married, so you still kept that pretty private for for some time. Lays math described it to me. Said you just have to kind of become comfortable in your own skin, and he says at one point in time you will not care. Boy was. Good and it's. Clearly, it's personal. Thing is as it gets, and I'm glad you're sharing it and you know it just. We have so much to learn, and that's where I really was looking forward to talking to you because as a guy who's been a libertarian conservative for a long time and working through smaller parties. Admittedly we have a lot of intolerant people among our ranks, not overwhelmed by any means, but there agonizingly vocal, and and sometimes just so brilliantly. That of course, they sour people at large and. Conservative parties unfortunately degree have given these people a home, and it's termed themselves, and it turned things in general. And it's always been frustrating because we're. We're missing out on on just such a segment of the population I think you know, of course, not every lgbtq person is going to want big intrusive government. They may be running businesses. They're tired of the taxes. They may be just wanting more. Personal freedoms are being libertarian, but they're scared away from these parties by some of these these crackpots. Here's no doubt that there are some people who are scared away from it, and simply because of that you know they don't feel welcome. They. Don't feel welcome they. They still feel kind of ostracized and. You know they're willing. They don't WanNa. Be They want to be a part of the two? But I think you're going to get that in any any party any faction of Korea as we've discussed before, there's always the extremists. Yes, and I'm not much of a mind, if I guess you know dragging the mountain, beating administrates and canceling I. Just hope to make it to see more of it where it's just socially unacceptable that that's where. The, person who puts it that intolerance? The room can pin-drop because people said really do too, and the person just leaves. They realized this is not the place for me I. Think we're getting there, but we. We've got a ways to go. Even spoken. Generally conservative for some time on social media and with other things so when you came out there. Have you been accepted by some elements of the Gay Community? Since, then as a conservative, because that's another side of the coin in a sense It makes me think of Joe Biden, for example, there's some activists hit on the far left. Who who say you weren't with us? You are not such when Biden said you weren't black if if you weren't supporting me, There's are some of that pressure to some degree. There is I would say it's harder even from that side defined acceptance because I mean you know obviously within the key community I mean it's a smaller community. And that's what I've. That's what I've learned so far, but they're. They're so set in their ways that you know the minute they find out that your more conservative leaving their almost aghast. Like, how could you possibly be? It's this. It's that it's like Oh God you. I'm sorry, but. You may use this to define you. I don't use it to define the I mean. It's just a part of me more than anything. That has probably been the hardest thing because you know people. You think you could be an acquaintance or a friend of. Just automatically discount you. That way now doesn't happen often, but I would say. Probably in those those kind of relationships probably happens twenty percent of the time. I just don't want anything to do with after that after they find that out rather news. I take sitting. I've always used a stick. Politics seriously don't take them personally, and there's nothing more verbal than somebody's. Have that person over for dinner I. Don't want to talk to that person anymore because they politically did this that. A heck of a lot more of it with the whole trump and divide in the states and things like that. It's awful. It's a different sterkel. But Give credit where it's due to the left side of things. They embraced people from the LGBTQ community far before conservatives, and that's how the established as being a comfortable home for them. And but I mean it's changing. Thankfully, it's finally changing and we're getting to the point where we stop torpedoing ourselves. Torpedoing yourselves in her ourselves. What other work do you feel could be done though to to buy conservative? People to. Improve this perception of intolerance Santa. We'll get rid of the reality that happens to. Yeah. I think it's just something happens over time, but I guess at the same time. Going back to your comment about. You know don't even look at it that we have to look at it that way. Just look at it as the person and say you know. Are they a good person? Do they share the same values? Hey, I can get along with that. And that's tough in this world of identity politics right now. That's the gold standard is getting to that point the. Get there use ended. Masturbate their identity politics, and that's what's really. I. Guess Extending this This divide. I'm thinking slaughtering a quote from Morgan Freeman, but there was something along the lines of. We have a problem when you say you're white man and I'm a black man when we're just manner or something like that, but she's starting to the terms we've already divided. Right off the bat. But at the same enforces. Speaking to you, not just as a fellow conservative, but in this particular case as Lgbtq community member who is conservatives. We still have those issues to sort out so. I guess we still have to talk about the identities. bookstop molding ourselves around them. I guess I mean I guess one quick example is We support the held the ALBARN LGBT Chamber of Congress now. That was one one thing that I wanted to do is to be able to back to the community that way so I attended the AGM last year and and we're going through the by laws, and you know they start spitting out in. Okay, we're. We're adding in the Pronoun. We're doing this. We're doing that and I don't profess to understand it or. or or necessarily agree with it, but I mean it's important to some of the people around the table. It's important that it be there so all right guys if you want to do this. Are you opposed to it? I'm not opposed to it like. You guys go right ahead. I agree with you. You know if it's that important to you than we're going to add it in. Well pronounced. It's A. Difficult in sticky issue I mean the way I love is if somebody identifies in tells me. I prefer to be referred to as such I will go that route, but initially I am going to. If a person presents as a he I'm going to see he. I'm going to say she. You know until sort of told otherwise I mean. I. They've made such a minefield sometimes. If you miss gender somebody, even if obviously. And that's that's the hard part to understand but I. mean you know it's important. It was important to some people around the table. So you just kind of let it go and I. Guess that's that's where I go back to my comment, you know. Can you just like the person for the person and I like I, got to meet a lot of people, there and I quite like them. Yeah so. Marion! I'm happy for you guys as long as you're happy. Running lot twitter pools, and like playing with those. But you did one a while back on on pride. And asking if people supported or not, and it looked to me in view like some somewhat disappointing results in a sense, it's thirty four percent in favor at one glimpse I'm trying to go into memory only a small amount totally opposed somewhere in the middle, but. I just we would have thought such a large. We'll get to a point. Where at least wouldn't identify is not supporting. Winds, she came back to it and Corey was at. It was a poll based on. Do you support pride month and yeah I guess I left it to open their, but at the same time I just wanted to know if people you know were were comfortable with pride month it it. It tended to lean more towards the parade, and some some respects and And others really got the question and said, either you're I. Don't Support Pride Month and the question. What really threw people off for? The parade was I. WanNa Take My Family I. WanNA support it I. Don't WanNa look at. Naked people running down the street and I couldn't even I couldn't argue with him. I wouldn't go to a family event. s naked people running around, but I don't think you've actually seen that. in the in Calgary I think you've seen it in a few larger cities and their larger parades, but yeah I was shocked by the results, but you know that's why you run a poll I mean I I i. don't dislike anybody for their responses I was actually you know quite engaged or some people and and a lot of people were very respectful of it. But just like. Why do you need this? Why do you need this but good question? A good question I mean you put it out not to get an answer. You want to get some engagement in discussion on the issue which needs to be discussed. That's made in research. You do research to find out where people where people tend to delaying the most well good I got a good response. They're actually quite. Good and prior to you know. We talked a bit earlier like for myself I had to grow up. I was at least thankfully never have one of those crazed intolerance, gay bashing sorts or anything like that, but I was a child of the seventies and eighties it would you know witless? Lee Throat, the term fag and bully children who are the kids who seem more effeminate than others or some of the the locker room chat. That was terrible I imagine some of those locker rooms. They were a closeted gay individuals who felt horrible while those discussions were going into something of a turning point for me, because I just didn't I was in the oilfield I didn't get a lot of exposure to. People from the Lgbtq community was girlfriend took me to proud of him, and I went, because a friend of hers was singing in the choir there and I was still awkward, and she almost had to drag me there, and this was in the nineties. It wasn't really that big yet. Then either it was. A. Hell of a time it was fun. It was a bunch of great people in and just having a really good time and being out in the open, and not being afraid of saying they are being who they are. It also lets I guess a little bit of why some feel compelled to really push the envelope to the most limits because he's a lot of people were pushed into ground for a long time. Way Back at the end of the eighties early nineties. I worked at Chicago dish downtown. Deliver after hours to the staff off street where the few. Gay, bars were back in those times, and but they were hidden There was what the teen club because that was. All you'd see on the door was the number three eighteen on seventeenth avenue there was Goliath which is literally in a basement in the back door from an alley to get down into because people were put at risk and there at least at best what was called tolerance was saying well. You do what you want. We don't want to see it. So I could see why person after living through that would just want to say well. This is my day I'm GonNa get out and I'm going to show you everything I mean. We don't offend children, but you can see some of that. Motivation perhaps comes from I absolutely. See at the on especially from talking to people in the community. I mean that's really really. Where does come from the? they were quite oppressed in at the time and now. Here. We are thirty years later. They don't have to hide anymore. They're quite happy to show pictures of themselves and their partner just. Enjoying life. Yeah and it's it's a great event just for people to get out interact. I mean if from different communities and don't see as much. And it helped me and certain that it helped a lot of others an unfortunate effect, the now has become so politicized and so divided the activists elements sometimes rises to the top I haven't been deprived a couple of years now I. I kind of when they when they wouldn't allow police to attend anymore said we'll That's enough I mean. There's there's. Btcu police officers now who are doing it excluded I mean they do their job. They're not. Cracking down and. But it's losing that community thing that was being built, and when I would discuss it. I get shut down by Mr Morrison. In some of the others you're a street now. You don't know anything about it. Don't talk about it well. Yes, I understand it, and it's not my event, but it really does help people like me at San People in the community to get to know each other and level, and just talking about things, but there in lies the problem. Corey is supposed to be inclusive. It's supposed to be inclusive event for everyone. In you know, there's more exclusions and inclusions. Yup I know some of those police officers and they're. They're upset. You know that they're not included. It's community, but now they have to show up and playing clothes. and Smith kind of stand. Almost ashamed on the side. So you're putting the police in the closet, you put mcleese police pack, Makasi putting the military back in the closet. You're putting political cart parties back in the closet and those are the people you want to help. Support the community. And ironically the particularly, if it's conservative parties over there and their supporters of the people you want to learn, because those are the parties. It's still has some hanging up, so parties still seem to have the monkey on their back. When it comes to the LGBTQ issue. Absolutely they'd have, and that's That's the challenge I would incur you and I tell people then you know some of them. Listen to unfortunately, but get you telling me you have to include them in there. Because you know, I mean here. We are in a position where the UC peer are are the governing party Albert. DNA. Want them on side you want. Do not want your policies or your your request to be taken seriously. Well maybe they would be taken more seriously if you included them in on that and showed him you know. Hey, we're just normal. People like you and you know and get rid of that stigma that you that you said. Yeah, some of them still have. been a a sad evolution of you know things such an important in in and hard one event wasn't welcomed in in the seventies and eighties, when pride really started to try and get going, and now to kind of come full circle where people don't feel comfortable coming to it again when the first message was pleased, everybody come on, let's get. Let's get out here. I would hope that it can swing back to being more. I mean it's political by nature. There's no avoiding it, but just something we're a large crowd is coming in i? I agree with you. One hundred percent and I've talked to him older older individuals in lgbt community, and they don't even participate anymore because it has become so politicized, and that's disappointing because you know they're quite proud of what they achieved because. They didn't have the kind of freedoms. They didn't have those freedoms growing up that that I enjoy now and ungrateful for what they have done. No, it's made it easier for me. Now, because that's certainly put me Put me in the closet for a number of years. And they had to come out in a in a group of basically initially, because that's the only way he could be in public because he'd be beaten by a bunch of rednecks if you went as a couple of. Streets back in those days. So. I really hope that it can start turning back into a fun. Sort of event just for people to grow it I know people get upset with talking about I guess guys get a little, too. Exposing himself making it non family friendly, and those are just a few again of the extreme ones, but it's unfortunate because those. is where it gets dicey with some people but I think it's important for kids. To learn to be tolerant at a younger age, so they don't have come at it later in life, too, but there's the fear of of people who just have different moral standards of Oh. You're going to indoctrinate my kids. I. Just you know I know as you know as well as anybody you. You can't turn gay. Turn your straight. A twenty year, old son, there is no way I turn him. Yeah, but it. It's again with you know it's. It's a tough balance to achieve, but I WANNA see more young people uncomfortable coming out to these and. And again realizing it's a big fun. Community of people is all it is. It's intended to be but you know again we can we. We really have to lose the act of his in there. We have to have to make that fun event because I mean now it's starting to affect the sponsorship. Oh, it's carpets. My, it's this. It's that while you don't want. Part of the reason, those corporate sponsors ships are there is people who are in the community work at those businesses. They actually managed to convince their employer to be a part of this and they're doing it willingly now. Shut. When does it stop? It's GonNa Swing back the other direction and for the right reasons. For the right reasons is the other part it's. It's a complicated issue and a frustrating one. But just keep going forward with a nice big smile on my face and tolerance, and that's the way I was growing. I I actually grew up with very. Tolerant! And I appreciate your efforts. He's I think at least when it comes to pride in the community. It's GONNA take change from within before things will change with. Somebody can push from the outside that just adds to the drawing each other's lines in the sand, and your heels dig in and again. That's turned. Hang up! We have on both sides I. Look at Dave Rubin who love watching online and listening to, and he's a traitor to the left, because he used to be with the young Turks, and and he left the young Turks, speaking conservatively releases a classical, liberal and openly gay man, yes, and. All the just attack him in a visceral and despise them, because they see him as a traitor, and what a terrible tribal sort of attitude to have. That I mean it's. A lot of people don't realize they're practicing the same kind of bigotry that they were suffering under twenty years ago. Just on different moral basis, and I'm glad you phrased it that way because it's exactly. you know. Again I'll go back to you know some of those those relationships that I had within the LGBT. T community coming out originally. It was it was very positive, and all those people are quite happy in the minute. You explain that you're conservative and all the sudden. You're evil. And you should be cut off and you should be ashamed. That that is sad. That is hard to get around you know and it's. It's unfortunate because you know there's some people who've done some amazing things they've helped. Advance the cause very much and. Again just throw a wrench into absolutely everything at that point. because you're you're virtue signal dividing lines now. I would think that I guess. Perhaps s conservative parties, and they really are getting a lot better and there's room to improve. The basis of what I'm talking about, but I guess that would make those those who are dedicated socialists, and I'll just on that that aspect of things. The left losing that niche that they've had captured this long. They're feeling vulnerable, and that's part of what's making them Lascaux in and shoot out as well I guess. That could earn him if you don't have that. Societal market cornered any longer. Will you've lost a bit of your support base, and and that's I think that's what you've seen in the last few elections provincially and federally. You've seen the pendulum started to swing where. You've got twenty two was somewhere between twenty and thirty percent support from the LGBT community Kinda swung from fourteen percent. Asserts conservative. That's a significant change, so one almost has to ask. What is the real issue here? Why? Why did that swing so dramatically in the last elections will? You can make some assumptions well. Around a poll. All. The same issues. I mean LGBT. Business owners are tired of being over taxed as well. They're tired of being overregulated. The would like to see perhaps broadened healthcare options all sorts of of policy areas outside of the social that they'd like to see chase finally. They're starting feel comfortable. Supporting a party because those parties are feeling comfortable in shitting the the bigotry and it's. I was a campaign manager for one of the candidates and the welders party back when the Hunts Burger dropped. Yes, I remember sitting at home watching. Against Social Media when that? Broke and I just lost it. And it. I was seeing the fire. Lighting up is a win and I started uh, coming out and just ripping concert. and. We're GonNa about twenty minutes. I get a phone call from the campaign chair from the welders parties inquiry. Please please pike. We'll take care of this. Fine I'm doll. Turn A computer back to the campaign office tomorrow. Well they took care of it by kicking. The can down the road. And look what happened it was there was a lot of high tentative support for the party. At the time. People wanted change. They didn't read for, but it was kind of like. They're still just waiting. Looking for an excuse not to support MRS has bringing up. You see there. They are bunch of big. And back in Redford came again and we did it to ourselves. I. Think now though even this time later if another hospital surfaced in any campaign. person is going to be off. The candidate lists so fast if they ever got there in the first place, so I think we're learning. We're getting better. Better I mean you're young. Spared social media as you can better vet your your you're. I, mean it's. And that's okay. You know what I mean. That's really not what you within your party. Because like you said I mean I could decimate the opportunity for. The ninety nine percent of them who really just want to do their jobs? They want to do something for their community. Oh Yeah. It's the majority are there, but they're not putting up with it either. The social media aspect of double edged to I. Mean we've set the bar so high for candidates I mean the the only people that are gonNA coffee sooner. People who've never been on social media. I mean with me with fifty seven thousand tweets and. Thousand blog postings and whatnot It wouldn't take a lot of work for somebody to find something they can rip out of context and. She running anytime soon. I've already run before, and a lot of people are relieved. It is not going to happen again I found out. That has not where I belong anyhow. I'm there to Pester and annoy those run in and I'm not supposed to be one of those in the bunch, but I've been asked before, and I've turned them down. And simply because you know, I probably said a little too much at times, but I just don't have the patience for it. It's a restrained special world to be elected official now. And I think that's tough you know especially coming from the from the private sector because you sit there and say I make decisions. For certain reasons and I don't do it because somebody screaming and yelling in my ear like if we were to change a process that we have within our company. Just because two or three people complain about it does not mean I'm GonNa Change a damn thing. Because it works for the vast majority of people. And I think that's where I have such a problem within politics, and you know you get the louder people screaming and they could represent maybe a very small portion of the population. And all of a sudden. We're GONNA. Have a new program or new policy just to accommodate that it just. Doesn't register with me, very. And social media has amplified the vocal minority in a way that we've never seen before a small, but dedicated group can make so much noise now. And caused so much damage. The the cancel culture the shutting down I mean what if somebody who and that's what's happening? Is that a brilliant lifetime of work? Done a lot of. Good things at a lot of good thoughts a lot of good ideas. Has Too many scotches night and tweets stupid. It happens and maybe it was even intolerant in stupid. They get screamed down. They get shutdown. Get canceled their out of public life for good. They're chameleon it. Isn't it better to try and correct the behavior rather than shun people, but that's what we've got a screaming mob now, yes. I grew I grew up in a world the same world that you'd adware. We grew to this point through compromise. Now it's. If you don't agree with me. You're going to get attacked. And I don't like that mentality like you said I mean you can do a lot of good your entire life and you could get. You could ruin your reputation just from one old tweet. One old comment one old photo. And that's just wrong or even a new one. How much are you losing for the sake of shedding one down? If they've come to point of prominence and profile. Chances are these. This person has done something significant, hopefully good and and is going to carry on, but if you've shut them right now. Stopped, but again would someone's going to stop that trend. but it's made a conservative politics. There's some of it to hyper defensive and that ruins discourse as well. On twitter I'm followed by pretty much every member. These EP is now. But since they've got into office. On interactions on twitter. On outside of private messages, practically none prior to them, getting into office, lots of discourse, but now they just tweet out press releases, and so on and. Well. Don't engage corey because he is A. That's fine, or at least it can be dangerous I. Understand where they're coming from because I can bring them into a conversation that could blow up I'm not afraid of blowing up. They've got a lot more to lose. But what? A dangerous world is dangerous for activists. Just people want to exchange online. If you're scared to speak, if you've got a person, every word for fear of getting canceled. That's the most concerning thing that's concerning. You know and I even I. Find Myself tempering my comments at times because. It's. Really easy to come back and tell somebody just to piss off. Your sometimes you have to come back with you know that that common-sense approach in A. And remained remain calm and and cautious in your comments. New. You've got responsibilities. I mean you represent accompanying employees and people in a brand so. There's a certain amount of caution that you have to have to put in play there, but you know you also on your values, no two you know as long as you do in a respectful way, there's there's no reasonably by. You can't make your opinion. I love that absolutely I mean I I said I despise twitter accounts. They're just I'm just GONNA tweet out the press release, and this is form of word, and what respond to anybody in and so on. Waving at that point, yeah, I mean it's just a he was was put it off to a staffer, then and not talking to the person, and that's everything that twitter was about to begin with I mean you could reach out and potentially interact with a political player we are. A celebrity or somebody in your? You're getting a glimpse into their. Personal speech in views that you wouldn't typically have gotten before, but now we're going the other way. Because the last thing somebody wants to put his personal, because that could be what where they go off, the rails can be really go off the rails and it's. It's a shame because like you said I mean that was the benefit of the Many of the platforms were able to interact with that type of person. And now because of that canceled basically shut it down. Alex you, said you just getting press releases while no I want to talk to the individual, or you know I wanna be able to share something this way or just ask a simple question. In a hope for reasonable answer back. I WANNA candid view from them. So I again I can. Learn from it or even fight with them. Debate is a better way to put correct it. Why would you introduce this policy? While here's why I totally disagree with it. Yeah, come on! When recently it wasn't like the making thing. It was a wedding photographer. This was in Toronto. I guess they declined to to take the pictures for for Lesbian couples wedding. and. Here's have kind of mixed on things and it has people left and right on it, but that's the fun of twitter. If you're gonNA, have a good debate on it. I. Believe is a private business person. They have every right to say no to whoever they feel. They should say not I also feel just as an individual. You're an idiot for saying no to perfectly good clients, and you're quite in my view on a bigoted basis. Sure but I don't think it should be illegal for them to say. I don't think they should be pilloried or have their home. Addresses posted online. Just get on their condemn column. arse holes if you want, but then that's it. It's done. There's lots of other businesses more than happy to fill that void, and I suspect that they lost a good number of clients. Outside of that couple that they refused to take the pictures for as well, but we've turned it so black and white where we can't just. Can't deny. Allow them to be wrong and move on. Because you have all these different avenues to to shame people. An personally I would care. and. Be Like your door can. I wouldn't refer you. You know, but I don't need to go there and advertise. You know your group Assholes I. Don't think anybody should do business with you well. You know what you've done good work now it's just unfortunate. Was People calling for them to get their license polled and things like that and again I think they stepped in it and they've gotten some exposure and you know. I A who'd want their wedding pictures take somebody who doesn't like the many ways. I don't think they're going to a very good job. No I. Mean You WanNa? Be Even have fun with that. You, wanting photographer, and I think the one thing I can relate it to his You know when we haven't the debate over GSA's in the schools yawn. I really struggled without one because a father apparent. I WanNa know what my my kid is doing. But at the same time I understand the need for you know for having GSA in the schools. I struggled with this one for months. I was at the the UC P. Convention. And you know I attended a couple of different functions. I ask people a ton of different questions from the LGBT community from the other side of the fence. I left there just as confused as when I showed up there. And I think what what what would finally change my mind as I talked to Lisa Davis when she was on the you know the the CBC. And you know she you know. She just gave me a story night or or related to this topic, but it made me think in a different way on link. Okay, okay well. I am a parent, but. You know here's a good example of you know. How do you? How do you change your mind? Because United, get get attacked by a few people on this because I wouldn't support it initially. And in the end, I probably would have supported I didn't think it was a big deal just to add other people had stronger feelings about it in on. That's where you say. The attitude has to change its. Yeah the attitude has to change. Because I been supported now and simply because you know I would want to be that seventeen eighteen year old kid who had nowhere to go. And, had those those bigoted kind of parents who just? Don't want to hear it. They don't WanNa see it. Yeah that was a complicated one and something that people had to, and you put it the right way, though in the end they exist. Nobody likes to think about that. There are some parents who are bigots and the kids need to get away from. We do accept that there are some parents who physically abused children. There's some parents who. The most horrific things to children they're in the minority thankfully. But there's some that. Child who is not straight is gonNA realize they can't. They can't come out and it's just not an option. So how do they communicate with people? How do they network how they deal with that complicated time? And that's that's their only other social outlet at school. That's where they live. I went to for part of my schooling and all boys academy on. Bank of her island. You WanNa. See Bullying. Boy In. That was institutionalized bullying. They had the prefect system and the head school is going to smack you. Pass the back of the head and get you to do his laundry and use Mac the kid, and below you in the head, and give him the laundry and down. It goes in the house. Masters who are the teachers? Honestly encouraged it. You know that's the way we didn't are well schools, and that's the way it's going to be for your voice. And the kids who were misfits I don't know how they survived. That was horrible, just horrible because you could see I mean. This was the eighties there were no. Out Kids I mean clearly with with two hundred and fifty kids in the boarding school. There are certainly a number of gay kids in there. There is no way they could come out and they would have been skinned alive and. Nowadays I imagine it's much more tolerant, but still they need a space. Where are they going to go where you're going to get away from the prefects? The believes in the others. To discuss things and chat I mean people frame the. GSA's is going to be a dating club or An area to explorer. Sexual practices know at least from what I could gather. It was just somewhere for kids to be able to speak safely and examine these things. That's exactly what was. You know again. You just feel safe because we all know that the home situation may or may not work out. But yeah, the unfortunate part is a day. You know it got. You got to feed him, but I mean there was. There was a real debate for me going on inside my hand, and while even outside with with some of the people I knew. Because again. They couldn't believe you won't. Why were you disappointed at Saint Paul? It isn't Let's just it's a you know. Can we think it through? We have I looked at it from every angle because I'm not going to say year. Without learning more about. It. Was a tough policy and other. The wild stepped into twice. And there's where I differed in Daniel and I battled that in was twice with motions. AGM's about specific laws. You know I'd call. It Hunts Burger clause because you're saying we will specifically stand out for LGBTQ. I posted. A. Hardcore Libertarian because I had a problem supporting that just this self-flagellation like there's no other party. has this built into their policies and people say well the end ep because they never had. That's right, so let's get ourselves there where we don't have it. But when we start slicing and dicing. While where do we go then well? You don't have a policy about not discriminating against black. People will add that well. Then you've excluded Chinese. It's just a a ridiculous road to go down. We have to stop describing, but it was a minefield, and because people like me and others voted it down. It was. As Wilders Party doesn't support L. GDP rights. No, that wasn't the case, but boy. What a! Tough area policy that's all. It was a lot of discussion and I sympathize because that's kind of where I ended up falling as kind of on that that centre line is. Yeah. You could come up with. Policy all the way through, and you know one person that. Just doesn't like policy. You know. Stay on the policy game, keep the rule simple and. Keep the government out of my hair. Basically same thing within the party is you know? Someone's going to be upset about the wording. The next group will yell. We'll look for the same kind of reasoning, era or There's lots of trouble you can get into by getting to descriptive. Actions, speak louder than words. What a party needs a history of being good tolerant and. Not Not, not putting up with the BS from from some of the outlying numbers, but still allowing expression again it's tough. To be gagging your members. You don't want to sound like you're coming top down, but. I was VP policy for three terms with well-dressed Party going to beautiful thankful thankless night. That wasn't the other thing I learned that while I was there as Policies for parties are way overrated. Because in reality caucus is gonNA. Move how they're going to move at best, the policy is abroad. Guide you and you need it. But. Don't read too much into it. Definitely. That's a discussion for other podcast. I think maybe that are really good chat for a while, and I really appreciate you sitting down with me on this and. Thank you for shoes and. Hope we can sit down and talk some more because he's a lot more issues to rip open and expand on this. In this province. Especially yes, and I'm certainly could probably do another episode municipal issues if you. Let me. Get my notes together, yeah! Different. Realm altogether. Absolutely, it is right on. Thanks Shane. Thank you again? We'll see you on twitter guaranteed you will.

twitter Corey Calgary Shane WanNa cory Morgan San People facebook Joe Biden Korea Chemo Elliot Gary Komo Matthew Morgan Freeman Shane Helms Gay Community
After Show: Bottom stereotypes & is 'twink' a slur?

The Gays Are Revolting

31:21 min | Last month

After Show: Bottom stereotypes & is 'twink' a slur?

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We pay our respects to the eldest possum prison and the aboriginal outages of other Communities He may be listening today. Ohio hello, everyone, and welcome to. Big, brother a play gays revolts. Quarter and now. That's my favorite gag it every week. No one can stop me. So a little bit of introduction we've been ask few times to talk about bottoming for anyone that wants the INS and outs off. Of that, we actually discussed it in I. Think I very first. Yes I've. douching. It was preparing for bottoming I remember I was just like rocking back and forth like this. So, if you're interested in some of the more technical aspects of bottoming. Checkout I very first episodes. Especially, if you're new to the show, you may not have gone back that far on youtube bottoming I mean yes. We wanted to talk about it again because I feel like there's some depths to plum. Dude. Turned into An. Being served as an. Because, something I've noticed that lace online spent more and more time on twitter and less time interacting with people is I have seen this sort of like we trend towards tops and bottoms becoming almost personality tires. You know talked about mice ridiculous. My music tastes being I have the music taste of autumn. I wanted to really delve into that like how do we feel about? Position, in which we partake in love making. Finding US potentially you're. Willing. He's a special boy. Well Yeah. Interestingly last time we talked about bottoming I was. Up until very recently have been going to exclusive. And I've always referred to myself as a blouse which is a feminine. Tall. I, do like I get that. It's sort of funny to be like Oh. He's a bottom such. But I don't really think they apply like some of the best hops I've met have been twinkie fem absolutely. Taylor's we fans. Some of the best bottoms you know the guys misleading big. Muscle. Jim. Of guys too. Much. So I don't believe in those stereotypes again in porn. Reverse. Liz, I think it's really hard. Little dudes on. Kyle. I. This is his wife. Spe Is Dunkin love you baby. I've gotten back into endless wasn't like I was making the decision because I don't want to be a bottom. It was just like I wasn't feeling it. Yeah because. You know. Matt. Practice I'm not match fit. I've been using a bit of plugs. Because I forgot that I have a lot of sex stories like. Bits and pieces like I have like. A few dudas. Yeah. I had for other use when I. I've got a really fun when there's like a, we talked about rental properties. Bog I. Property, there's like these big mirror attached to the bowl. Like body highs. Like do it with a suction thing which I've used guys where like stick it to the mirror behind sucking off and they ride the and. It's Kinda. Hard. I can see the mirror. Shower to. Shower, wall Film people, but it's It's quite A. It's big bucks. I'm not sorry it's going to be doing liberty to. But I had. Like these little range, I can't remember why but it's like a range of but plugs. Dole's. They fit into each other. Top aware. Of Big I'm sort of like being white MB estimating I've messed up. Practicing those and sort of work and my way training. Excited train. House, if you're the kind of person that likes I'm. Different sexual experience absolute. I. Would Joke about me being bought. Hey but I actually identifies versatile. But in every relationship I've had flipping between those positions have felt like totally different. Experiences the familiar I could understand potentially not liking one of them and liking the other Oh we've talked also about the fluidity of sexuality and at some point in your life, you may start to enjoy something that you didn't enjoy full one to explore flavor. Yeah. These restrictions about like, Oh, you listened to boom boom by Charlie acs your bottom. Oh, you went to the Cali right Jepson Khansa your body. It doesn't allow us to really grow as sexual being. And the something that's always not resonated with me or I felt really strange although I respect it the the guys you may. Just like refused to ever try. Ever will or they've never talked and they never will and look like twice in my life. When I was like nineteen I'm sorry I said the whole thing staring at Dr like. I feel very. And I have not made much progress with the first episode we talked about me that. I do think a lot of it is about practicing. Going straight for and also like once you're fucking the. Is, experiencing the same difficulties that your experience don't to go for it straight away. Yeah. What what you need to be doing playing with yourself by yourself and sort of realizing what it can feel like slowly and get working up to. fucking smash 'cause. Stuff just. Congress rating. The best tops, our bottoms. Like ordering. Ease into it because they know they know how it feels. For Very, long time I earned the bottom. Maybe once or twice in my early twenties. And, then like being with Josh. Predominantly taught was identified as versatile but like being just more comfortable being atop and then like when we've been in Saunas and stuff like I've bottomed more and more and I'm just like actually I'm really enjoying this again and like wondering more and more time as you just all of a sudden like, okay this is the thing. I Kyle Sorry Luke. Had a really good point before about it being polar opposites and that's what I'm really excited about. going. Exclusively top I was verse and some of the best sex is when you flip flopping and. That's really. Getting both doing one other you doing both yeah. So I'm really excited now that. Kevin. Again. Be Outfit. Yeah. Fact verse guys and Flop and channing really change that dynamic bottoming was just so it's like the had to get pushed at the nest. Describing something live in practice it was just like you're taking now. Pushing. That's Caucoto. I totally agree in that like I don't think a Lotta tops who have an experienced bottoming know that lack really uncomfortable like five to ten seconds of insertion. And that generally, it's like the head of the penis that you need to like Bryce full and then relaxing, and then you can go to tat's that's it. Yeah. So it's play the right here. and. You learn that from bottoming thought. And also thing like a lot of light strict talks as well that haven't bottomed. Yes. The pleasure of like going fast and then slowly. Changing the. Data. Really Listening PA. Whoever you having sex with to see if they actually enjoying. Yeah. It's nice like fucking to music like. Hope. Two, six, eight rhythm. This we'd sounds. Sort of what is the? Songs. Choice I love listening to scissor or Kalaniiki Lonnie. Telling ME A. I think I've talked about this before, but I have. been using for like if it's just a quick right random quick put something on elevator. Music. Hawks feed the animals. A matchup of all different music the amount of time. I, feel like guilt or owes me money because the amount of time so like Fox guy. He was that it was like, all right they message they want to catch up again and they're like, Hey, what was that opem you? Because it's dinner for the few times you it'd be like sugar to put something on at one time I like message league has a quick. Can you send me apply remember that? Chat for the PUNK Kozel okay, we are sharing today. All of platelets to quickly put on this. Guy Only Kylie. Kalani. Like my sexual playlist, my spotify like as dangerous field is my camera roll. So using it during sex is really bad because sometimes it will go from Caesar and Kalani into will you still love me? Like. Listen to fever ray industrial. no or throat singing like ten to GAC throat singing and I don't know if you've ever listened zoo. In. It's a different kind of thing it can kill them it real quick. What I'm imagining is just having sex with nice song then old sudden Cape comes on sometime. Generation. I'm. Being warmed up to before the full. You like. Thirty seconds. fingering or I know for certain that Josh loves a good bit of rooming. Drives him insane like it really gets me like excited. I've already founded. But like seeing him being so pleasure D- by like just me ruining him sucking often staff and then like he'll suck me off and like I'd like all of that fault like it really builds the energy like when we just go straight into, it's just not the same year, right? The reasoning because I do when I have bought S and. Multi long time ago I couldn't do it unless it was like a fair bit of full hand get started but I I this guy that I regularly a regular hookup that is about him. He doesn't like anything that's not A. Salon actually when which is fine. Fair enough. Interesting for me because I was like Oh God I don't know how you're straight for a DIJK. Sales have. Experienced PAS. What you said and I'm like. Playing Mary Conner even put Lube on the inside off. Beforehand like. Goes on that's like on the outside. But not on the inside of his ask because. It's judge it's like it's. Familiar with the. Opposite of what? We like four hours of. Like fingerings okay for me as long as you've cut your name. Like filed them filed hiding no jagged. Jagged. Edges. Tops realize that that can cause some discomfort. So that's something to be mindful of win. Aren't they re really around, you don't WANNA help cleaning. During yeah, exactly. Yes. Sometimes I found as well as some guys have really dry hand. Hand Moisture. Poised to rise beforehand, soften your hands out I think there's yeah. People enjoyed different aspects of bottoming and some of these stereotypes in identities to come out of a Hetero normative idea of logging dominant summit in women's men and women which is. Opinions of being putting onto women in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. It's not even them it just Israel. allowed. country. And I think even that has some sexual appeal in some ways like I. I used to get some appeal from feeling submissive and that's I enjoyed about bothering was the submissive aspect of back in the day power bottoms was not a huge thing. Yeah. Know that's the thing like, Hey, there is I mean I would definitely say in the last fifteen years. I've been on the same bottoming used to sort of be more of a shameful thing. But now it's kind of like a proud thing like. Fish I like yeah I feel like. On top. We. Have people walking around with like at Mardi Gras some those crop tops. Them and that's I. think that's kind of a really cool thing. Move. Big. Bottom energy. And that is all we have time for the bottom of the come through the bottom of the. Bottom of the barrel. Luke needs to rush off to go bottom for someone now. Abbas yes. It's been two hours. He's getting the shakes. Thanks for sticking with US glad to have mikey back. To our live shows in Sydney and the mid summit in million. selling fha episode left for the year. Kerzner's Um. Well. CENEX. Week. Boys. Came back in time for us to take a holiday for. Crispus Right Nickleback AH time. Thank you so much for the subscribing to pay and we really appreciate it. Helps us do what we do which is. A. Mills and saw. And we are your hosts of feminism ruins everything the femicide cast, we give critiques to movies, musicals, and pop culture phenomena. Essentially ruining. Never know what's going to happen. So we are unapologetic music. NERDS and breaking feminist. So we decided to combine some of our favorite things feminism talking about feminism, talking about movies and musical soaking each other to bring you weekly critiques of movies in vehicles often with a really cool guest weighing in on the discussion. So you can listen into vendors ruins everything with a weekly episode dropping Fridays on spotify apple podcasts. Acosta over get you from. Ted Cash. Feminist podcast. Welcome to the after offshore. Thanks for sticking with us. Money Dollars. Christmas and my birthday present. I've noticed that a lot of genres of gaming genre genres like Bush. Action yes. Sure. This. SCIFI horror. No, but that's like this bears wolves, others, other animals. But. One of the really well known wines I would say is like wink which you guys often referred me wrongly as. I think if I were to be categorized by anything would be offered but I don't identify that I have kind of noticed people in recent times maybe using it as a bit of slower within the Gay community. Are you stupid twinkle Yeah Oh just being like playfully being like, oh, he's such a twin euro small kind of thing. Yeah and like this kind of mask from mask as. Like shaming filler gay man Kinda Way. Yeah. It's so interesting I definitely Senate been used. Which I find fascinating is someone that used to be a twinkie. Still still try to. Ask definitely pain for about a decade Yup. I definitely have never used as a derogatory tune in. I don't think I ever have. said all tinkle me a tweet which yeah I just find it fascinating when people are offended by the time. Yeah. So we show still. Used to get away with. The sense of like fat shaming announce Guinea. Gay. Shaming. Kind of like we're FEM shaming gays. Ties into quite a few things we talked about bottoming an. Identity stereotypes, stereotypes, and stereotype I think peaks. This label of Twin. As well as the label of bottoms has sort of morphed into something that also includes your personality type as well as your taste in things do you think is? Related to sort of Misogyny as well within the scene in how relating to being feminine He's a direct. Well I. Think it's it's evolving in that these categories historically was purely sexual They were just sexual preferences. I prefer stocky builds. I prefer slim slender builds that evolving into something that includes more cultural significantly. I am a because I like Charlie. And I bought him. I'm a bear because I like I can't even fathom. Gestures. Like these definitions that we had that started off as being quite. Sexual preference now becoming he's just for us to identify personalities. Right. categorize. People love to categorize one another and actually thought like you've used this word on the show and it has sat with me a little funny really. Yeah. Yeah. So we O'Shea sex stories on this circuit and Turning Swift. Has Been a few stories where I'm sure it's actually for the sake of protecting the identity of the person that you were sleeping with but you've said Oh some twinkies come around and I you know. I was at. So and so. And Willing, and that was just some wink and I fought him and I just got some twitter to around and the objectification of that words. That's maybe for me is going those sexual terms and not really being a cultural thing where I'm saying where wink might now have evolved main dumb or vacuous. That's what you're saying is that the twin has now become synonymous with vacuous. Off. Savings me saying these these empty shallow basic human this. He's easiest way of describing the person to you. But you raise an interesting point because there are certain levels of yeah fetish. Aligned with these labels as well with bottoming as well I like the. The people are sort of reclaiming into this land. Yeah. Definitely. I was GONNA say I. think There are a lot of really proud swings around and they. But. That's what I'm saying. To me, the word is not a derogatory term. Very proudly, and I think a lot of people really kind of strive for that. Aesthetic. That kind of lifestyle and they like like the whole look really going for it. Yeah. I definitely in the past when I had bad mental health issues like sort of thought that. Is. A more attractive like a more wanted personnel in allegany community that I've physically changed the way that my buddy look. Into, that category because I was about? I was like the white that I am now even bigger just like this was five or six years ago. But in my head being wasn't associated with someone who was bigger whatsoever. So definitely made me think about what my physical attributes were literally stopped myself. That's all like a year long and I got to the point where I was happy with being a skinny little drink. But then I realized that I wasn't actually happy. Being that sizeable. It was there as well as China calls back to like earlier was lost episode when we spoke about bottoming bottoms and this kind of negative connotations associated with feminine gays and it's kind of like these masks mask as or like it's Kinda homophobic within the gay world to think that these are bad things and like these big strong Muslim gays and I think it's really unhealthy yet. So interesting that that's what you see as a pinnacle of Saudi because to me, it's not like I. I think that's that's where we all have different levels of. Talking the main episode today about this. Assumed Guy Hierarchy. The Iraqi actually sits completely differently for different people because like I wanted to ask you. Do. You think. Coach a way we are obsessed with youth and you know being hairless and which a lot of the not all. But a lot of the gay community is, do you think there is anything to the thought that perhaps this is one of those rick? How Being beneficial with your background that you don't necessarily aged physically look or too mainstream guys. And you know you have less hater remove and that sort of stuff is some benefit to it that you can get away with being called a twinkie if you want to for longer. No. Okay. I always like such a lame gag but people always like ask me about my ethnicity and how it affects how youthful I. Am here and I always joke that won't for Asian people into your seventy and. Disappears. But the way I, think for a lot of Biracial and Gay Asian men who has not been pleasant any step of the journey the the fact that I could shave off a mustache sort of fit into something maybe on trend for a little bit it, it doesn't really have any sway and I I feel like a lot of individuals like Mikey and ourselves have struggled with place within the community perception of. Ourselves that we actually don't give an absolute fuck about any of this stuff anymore because we had to learn to not care about that. Yeah ten years ago you like we wouldn't have made him. We wouldn't have made it to this point now it's so interesting that the people that are breaking into the heterosexual mainstream through repos drag racing and and Yuna pop music and things like that. the typically more camp feminine. He members of our community? Those are the ones that are actually having a lot of success in other sexual. Camp yes and If you look at Los Ripples, drag race UK, the two twins kicked off the first two episodes. Yeah. It was the old. Camp completely different things to there but when we talk about being. As as a really high thing in our community, I think you'll thinking you'll missing out on something that doesn't exist if you think that in this in the context of this conversation of twinkie that your not benefiting from it in any way because to tell. I can tell you someone that that can't stop from putting on ways. And Con stop hair from going in different places and that sort of thing. I'm. Missing out on anything in that respect of the conversation. There is so much privilege that comes with being wise and Mayo Australian and living in the city and all that stuff that I have I would hate for you to be at something that I think that I have something that I don't have. So when we're talking about the context of twinkies in the guy saying I think it's something that's how it at high regard and so if you think that I mean anyway benefiting from it, you think you'll missing out on something that I don't have. So you're saying because Luke, thinking that you don't have twinkie qualities is a beneficial. Yes. He's just saying that maybe maybe your twinkie then Tom so he's saying that him having non twinkie characteristics is not in any way beneficial's who don't feel like you're missing out on. That's Elliott better way of putting it. Yeah you. There's a million other things that I do benefit from genetics that you're not missing out on. Put out by looking at a piece of bread not something that you're missing out on not like I et growing all over my fucking body everywhere. Yeah I think everyone struggle with appearance is a very individual thing that no one else has a direct insight into. And these labels like wink and Really hit some sensitive spots for a lot of people. And white us such sensitive things for men who historically very good at being sensitive or. Comes down to so many of the gay categories are by body type. Yes. That's the problem like but like as you were saying. It is evolving Pasta, which is nice that like e can be other things. I don't like just simplifying pure body category because that's not good. Like if it's not. If it's an easier way of cutting through station talk if you're gonNA instantly assume that because I said twinkled I said, yes, and that it's not. I mean people would I guess describe me as an order but like I wouldn't like I. Don't feel I. didn't feel comfortable with. Be connected because you already personally have negative connotations with others not at all like I think artists. Says Yeah. Out of them what's the problem with you? Yeah. I just don't like someone looking at me like that in categorizing me by my fighting. Yeah. You see straight guys even being called twins now really. Yeah. So. Yeah there was the guy from call me by my name. He plays a gay person. Yes. So What are they doing? This is what I was. So mad, you guys a cody by name and then. I'm like Oh these fuck is a straight. Anyway I, I think to accept they heyday in A. Very best. Idea and now I didn't know what to do I superman. Like my perception of gay male of standards, the hierarchy is often through the Voss volume of. Seeing the. just goodbye. And the move from the early two thousands where everyone had tips in was A. And the ripped jeans. Like transitioning. The six pack. That the natural progression over between to evolve into a long game. Trade him with Lebanon is evolving to, Daddy. Thank. Need Kate. Well. Thank you so much again for this into that a little bit, but it was good. SPICING, good. I think you so much subscribe to Patriot. We really do appreciate. He's the reason that we've been able to do at alleged that we just did and the reason we can afford to do Sydney show now upcoming Melwood. We really appreciate it and we hope to bring some all shows more city. New Zealand. Haven't chat going overseas. Out of this as well. Lugano. It's fun. Yeah it's a non swing so We are going to have a little bit of a break from the mainstream and the Patriots for the next few weeks just over the Christmas. New Year period. You'll. Well, we'll be back. On the eighteenth of January, with some fresh juice for your e. Forgeries Omaha Teens soclean. We Love you say much. Thank you for listening. A. Book. Ed. Traditional Medicinal. We are thrilled to announce our new line of energizing black teas. Our herbalists have blended organic Assam Darjeeling Black. Tea with beneficial herbs and spices decree revitalizing refreshing, and invigorating tease. Sure to put a little pep in your step find all our new tease at whole foods or order online using the code. 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The App Thats Helping Gay Couples Have Kids in China

Decrypted

26:08 min | 1 year ago

The App Thats Helping Gay Couples Have Kids in China

"Decrypted is brought to you by Hewlett Packard enterprise. Introducing HP green lake a new way to consume IT as a service. Visit H P E dot com slash green lake to learn more. A few weeks ago? I took a trip to the eastern side of Beijing to an area code Chalayan. This part of the city is full of skate shops, fashion boutiques and buildings under construction. Of course, there's always construction in Beijing. I was there to visit the office of blue. It'd the hugely popular social network for gay men and to meet the founded gung lay in person his a bit surprising. He's forty-one. He's gonna close cropped haircut wearing a Nike branded just do a t shirt and dark navy blue sweatpants. He really does not look like tech, bro or an LGBT icon if anything he reminds me a bit of my suburban uncle Gungwe is probably the most famous gay man in China now. But not that long ago, he wasn't openly gay. He was a police officer married to a woman. So yes, gung LA is definitely surprising in China, gay rights, nonexistent and unappreciative Xi Jinping. There's been a crackdown. On on civil society, public expression and human rights in general, even so blue has been able to thrive by tapping the LGBT community as a market in just a few years blue has attracted forty million users that rivals grinder one of the earliest, gay, dating, apps and blue is preparing to IPO police officer says offer them vehicle to soccer two dollars. Euboea? Sure when I sat down with gung lay he told me that the biggest difference between blood and other companies is its ideals and beliefs he wants to showcase Chinese company diligently serving the LGBT community showing that they can do things with value and philanthropy, gung less latest. Venture puts this philosophy to the test. It's called blue baby. A service to help gay men who wanted to have babies by Saragan overseas. Surrogacy is technically illegal in China. But there's growing demand for it. Anyway, you can see that in places where it is legal like, California where more and more straight Chinese couples of gone for surrogacy. Blue now wants to help its clients do the same thing. Running almost any business in China requires navigating a lot of uncertainty for blue d-, the risk is even more acute if it wants to grow. It's got to push the frontiers of what's possible and acceptable for the LGBT community in China, which still faces a lot of stigma and prejudice China is a country where there's no gay marriage and a gay couple content opt to child so blue is testing, the government's tolerance. But something quite new gay families. I'm peac. I'd Cari armed David Ramle, and I'm doing Lawrence. You're listening to decrypted. For most of his life gung lo was known as Ma Bali. He was a veteran. Police officer in Hobe province, which is outside Beijing, and he was married to a woman, but online he was someone else. He used the alias gung LA to live a parallel life as a gay man and an internet entrepreneur he'd started a website called Dan land, which became an important hub for the LGBT community in China, and he juggled these two careers for more than a decade rising through the ranks of the police as Ma Bali whilst expanding the website as done LA. And then in two thousand twelve his police superiors discovered what he'd been doing? Who is making the ball. The whole one g we enter major dollars corner. Our light our while he talked to me about what a difficult period that was he said that when local media outed him as the developer of the service. He was forced to choose between shutting it down or leaving the force. He chose the latter horrifying his parents in a country where stable government jobs, a highly prized things got even worse when they checked out his business, and they realized he was gay. He said the shock made his mother so ill he had to return home and look after her, of course, this was also the end of his marriage despite all that gung LA doubled down on his online venture and threw himself into launching blue d- an app for the Chinese gay community. It was late two thousand twelve like other dating apps. Blew us. Jill location to help man. Find dates and connect with FRANZ gung. Timing was good after all this was the smartphone. Boom when mobile use and access to the internet was explode. Outing and investors were eager to find the next ten cent, or by do one of those investors was David Chow at the firm DCM he'd spotted blue in two thousand fourteen DCM had already backed other Chinese social media companies and David thought the LGBT community was a huge potential market and the United States about one out of ten people or ten percent are LGBT members. And of course, in China that would imply if it gets through the US levels in the future that would imply a one hundred and forty million people will so, you know, the LGBT market in China in the future could be larger than the entire population of Japan nowhere near that many people identify themselves openly as gay in China now, and it's obviously hard to know or measure, what percentage of any population is gay or is openly gay or might be gay. But investors like David also see extra potential enga- consumers in China at least because they tend to have more spending power than the average in part because they don't have children. That's the promise of the so-called pink economy. We expect it to grow into high single digits over the next five to ten years and enhance you know, you have a large enough community too. Support an entire economy of its own that potential is starting to become a reality and blue has played a big role. It's most popular function is video broadcasts where uses livestream to their followers who can send virtual gifts and money. Blue gets a cut of these virtual payments, and it also runs regular ads in the app with millions of people signing up the gay community has become more visible in China. There is a growing movement, and they're more more spaces where people can can be out in China. That's Darius longer Reno. A senior fellow at the Paul tied China center part of your law school. There is studies LGBT issues and legal reform in China. And I wanted to talk to him about how blue fits into the broader context of gay rights, even if they're from remote places places in the countryside to your cities were ten fifteen years ago, really hard to find your community, but through blue it's much easier now, so there's a a. Growing connected community that has higher visibility in society, and even advocacy organizations that are starting to advocate for the community and the movement. As optimistic as that sounds that off still a lot of risks involved for anyone and any business associated with the G BT community blue is carving out a market that hasn't existed in the post at least, partly because of intense stigma around being gay in China. There are no explicit legal protections against discrimination based on sexual orientation, and there's also no gay marriage and no civil partnership for same sex couples and the government has become less tolerant of demands for civil rights of any kind in recent years. I don't think in many advocates in China jumping. The government is targetting LGBT issues per se, but they're wary of any form of organization where people are finding each other and trying to create movements. Someone who's experienced. This personally is Ryan law. He lives in Guangzhou in southern China and works for an NGO focused on LGBT health. I met him recently in New York. He described what the atmosphere is like right now, the beginning of twenty seventeen the whole. Synthesis. That not only would you be deeper the whole civil society situation, you know, a whole lot worse in China. And so the kind of director. Impact of that is, you know, a lot of events like openly gathering events, we cannot do a lot of our even sokaia shutdown. Why why would your events get shut down because any kind of group event gets shut down. You know, they just don't want you to kind of get together. And try to come up with something that, you know, true, advocate or do things together. I think but especially I would you be things right now. I think because Ryan says he's still sees room to move things forward. But he and his colleagues have been getting more visits from the police and are more careful now about how they communicate and what they do in public like ver-very ver-very seriously for even you know, we stopped talking things on Wade shared. We all moved to seek. No, even if only a little bit sensitive away, go to jail. Yeah. Just this kind of thing. And also, you know, like our events our poster we don't put our logo anymore because we put our logo then. It will shot down. It's not always easy to predict where the line is that you shouldn't cross for example, a dating app for lesbians called rela got shut down in two thousand seventeen over an event in Shanghai. I you have to know that Shanghai has a weekly wedding market in a park where parents come to mingle and find husbands and wives for this single adult. Children rela helped organize a group of parents whose children at gay but a few days off to they went to the wedding market. The app got shut down it disappeared from apps stores and from social media, although it has since relaunched Darius. The Yale researcher says that initially the government was just as wary of blue d-, but gung law was a former civil servant, and he knows how efficient on works in China. He's been very smart about smoothing the way politically for his business. Had successfully sold itself as like a up and coming tech darling to to the government example of indigenous shines innovation. I it's an example of success for Chinese enterprise pollute is an exceptional in this respect all large companies in China need to stay on the government's good side. So it's normal for companies to foster relationships with officials. But blue has been a specially assiduously courting the government in part by stepping lightly and avoiding public scrums, for example, in two thousand sixteen the government issued rules that banned depictions of so-called abnormal sexual behavior on Chinese television, which included homosexuality. The next year a government affiliated group issued similar rules for online content. Some major platforms reacted by banning gay themed content altogether, causing uproar in the LGBT community instead of commenting publicly gun law got in touch privately with one of the officials responsible that ficials said he'd just taken old rules for TV and applied them online gung framed as a business issue. He suggested that next time there should be more opportunity for public input in January of this year. The same group issued another list of banned subjects this time for short video platforms. The list includes foot fetishes and criticism of the Chinese communist party. But it doesn't include explode. Shit. Mention of homosexuality gung thanked the official privately and counts it as a win for dialog over confrontation. Title whole nigger. Fired whole we she said that he really believes dialogue consoled problems, and that the government is supportive of his company because it knows blue ID is doing things. Well, he said that even though there are some officials who aren't very tolerant of the gay community overall. He said the government is well intentioned that right? There is a good example of gun laws business savvy, blues market may depend on pushing social boundaries but gun laws. Focus is definitely on business. Not on advocacy and not on challenging the government. In fact, blue just become an essential partner for the government in its public health outreach, particularly for HIV and aids programs, and this strategy has worked at least for now blue has been growing rapidly since two thousand twelve and today, it's got forty million total us us about sixty percent of those are in China and the rest are outside China, mainly in countries where there's a big Chinese speaking population. The blue investor. David Chow says the company is planning to diversify into new services that cater to LGBT consumers and blue baby is the first the idea came from Ganga's own life because about four years ago. He started looking seriously at becoming a father. He says he always liked kids and thought they were cute. But then he hit thirty five. He started to envy other people when he saw them with their children. He wanted one of his own. There was a lot to figure out like where it's even legal to have a child by surrogate. He also thought about what life might be like for his child is the child of a gay man in China. Allergy hold on highly you need to. Thought about how the child might feel a lot of pressure or experience prejudice or feel insecure unsafe. He said the child might feel that other people have mothers. But that he didn't. In fact, he told me a story about how not long ago while they were all at home together. His son cold out for mother that he just didn't know eventually gun law decided to go to California for surrogacy. He was hoping for twins. But only one baby came to term delivers Email title. Ginny. See Gongloe spent a month in LA two weeks before the birth and to afterwards. He said the feeling of fatherhood never really hit him until he held his son in his arms. It was then on that. He really felt the rising combination of love and responsibility. Cung son now lives outside the city with his grandparents and his other dad gun laws boyfriend, mostly because the air quality and the environment is better. They're gonna face times with his son. And of course, gets lots of photos and updates about what he's doing like, lots of parents. He thinks his son is extremely smart and says, maybe he'll go to school in the US one day. Going Lewis's surrogacy is something really positive. It's transformed his life and light and some of the pressures of being gay in China. It's also part of the reason he decided to start blue baby. Business leaders are increasingly demanding the outcomes they want when they want them and paying only for what they use at Hewlett Packard enterprise. We're bringing that flexibility and control to IT with the introduction of HP green lake pay per use outcomes on your terms, come to HP, green lake and see the future of IT. Get there at HP dot com slash green lake. In december. I went to L A to visit HRC fertility. It's one of the clinics that blue partners within California has a refined beige reception area, and they get a lot of Chinese clients, which you can tell because there's so much as being spoken, maybe more Chinese than English. I was there to meet a man named Russell who'd flown in from China to deposit semen, which is the first step in having a baby by surrogate. From IVA partner, I'm out to every blocks. Matt Russell isn't one of blue babies clients, but he's just the sort of person gun LA is hoping to serve he's thirty seven and works in marketing for an international company. He also has his own marketing business on the side Russell's parents still live in the small rural town where he grew up. And he says it's becoming an issue that they don't know. He's gay. They don't understand why he's not settling down and starting a family. Remember, the marriage market in Shanghai. We talked about. Swim in the stronger from the family than just. Just recently. I think maybe a good idea to have a baby. And also, I personally I like babies too. So why not? So also, the reason I'm going to have a baby. Well, then because they have a lot of pressure. They won't get married. So I'm thinking, maybe I can just skip the stand like skip marriage just to. That much easier for me. The pats becoming a gay parent is full of hurdles for starters, it's incredibly expensive. Russell is budgeting two hundred thousand dollars for the process, and that's about how much unless spent as well Russell, I looked into adoption but found it would be impossible for him as a single game in China. He has friends who've had babies by surrogate in Thailand, which would be cheaper, but it's legal there. So after doing some research Russell founded agency called Los Angeles surrogacy for Russell, the next steps to find an egg donor and a Saric it. But it will probably take another year before he becomes a father. Donor. Do you know what you're looking for? When you want a more. Putting more attention to the paying more attention to the egg at the moment. I haven't thought about the next step. So I wanna have maybe he's always already Stargate, veggies, mixed and out go dark hair because. Egg donors that longer. I'm sure that very likely that make baby is going to be like blonde, then you know, in the future. I have this long kid on the street. They will say, where's the mother? It's so obvious that he does his. It's not my baby baby wants to make surrogacy easier and safer for the LGBT community steering clients to places where surrogacy is legal and long like California employees connect clients with trusted providers and shepherd them through each step. Choosing an egg donor choosing a surrogate drawing up legal contracts. There are three employees in Los Angeles who pick up clients at the airport book hotels and help get them around the city blue baby was launched less than two years ago. So it can't count any actual bits yet. Although some of its clients a pregnant or rather the surrogate pregnant blue baby is also a test of how blue diversify its business into products and services that aren't necessarily online for a mobile app, and an online company surrogacy is a very high touch business IP, we'll talk to you won't be said that in comparison to the internet side of his company Sargus is actually a slow business. It's. Service industry, but he wanted to do it anyway because he thinks it can help people. And because it's a happy thing. Even in saying that though it will turn a profit eventually when David sat down with gung LA it was around the Chinese New Year. And he talked a lot about what's spurring gay men from China to turn to surrogacy. Died. To my help. The Chinese New Year means heading home to visit family and gung says it brings out all the pressures of being gay purchase that parents and relatives feel as well. When an adult child comes home on married with no kids, it's hard for parents to face their friends to he says, bringing home his son the next generation of the family has repaid the heartache and the difficulties that his being gay and coming out has meant for them. A lot of people I spoke to including academics. And doctors as well. As intended parents themselves said the same thing having a child makes it easier for these men to come out to their families. I asked Russell whether this was part of his plan to do you think? Once you have a parents do come out. I'm not going to tell them. Maybe my kid. We'll tell them when he or she grew up. Russell is hoping for a girl after this long process. And he anticipates lots of challenges to raising his child he thinks he might have to send her to an expensive international school because she'll be a US citizen and technically a foreigner in China. Russell isn't sure if he'll be able to get her the documents and permits needed to attend a regular Chinese school. He wonders how future classmates may react to her. An issue will resent him for not being a normal dad in a traditional family. Your child yet sent really Bill just. Know what your family is like that's their family. They'll just accept it. Because the kid is going to face a lot of difficulties in school and because it's not normal family. He's not going to be treated equally as other kids. I know it's not going to be easy because our society is not ready for this kind of especially if we are gay couples the plan eventually is for blue to address this kind of worry with things like social kids groups on the app where children of LGBT parents can bond free from the stigma. They might face for having a non traditional family. Russell is also consent that at any moment. The Chinese government could decide it's not going to look the other way anymore. You don't know what they're gonna do? Maybe one day. They were just say, okay. We have to stop this. You cannot do babies in China. You cannot promote it. When we asked Dunga and David Chow about that kind of risk. Whether it's a crackdown on surrogacy or the gay community, more broadly. They both said they aren't worried and Blute certainly seems to be thriving its domestic business has turned to profit for the last two years and gun laws. Now, planning an IPO. So June on the points about Blue's plans to to go public. Did you get the sense that any part of those plans was related to putting the company on a sure footing and insulated from risk coming from the government, not necessarily mean if the government wants to crack down in China, they will. But one reason they may not is demographics. China's population is aging really rapidly. And having spent a long time trying to limit the population. I think the government is now interested in boosting the birth rate. And even if these babies are born by surrogate, they're still babies, they're still boosting the birth rate. Given how expensive this procedure is? I wonder how many babies this? You know, this avenue would actually yield. That's true. I mean, it does seem incredibly expensive and complicated. You know with the currency controls in China and stuff like that. But some of the fertility experts that I talked to who have been to China on these kind of education will tours that blue has put on. To talk to gay men who are considering surrogacy said the often their parents are with them, and this is such a strong. It's it's such a strong imperative to have children in China that these parents are just totally committed. They're going to chip in and help make it happen for their sons. Well, that was one of the big revelations for me working with you on the story. I had no idea that it would help parents deal with that children's sexuality if they had a grandchild in the picture. Yeah. I mean, I think it sort of just allows them to ignore it. I mean who cares about their children's sexuality when they have a grandchild. Beijing. Yeah. So did you meet any blue babies clients, they wouldn't make any of their clients available. I mean, they said basically, they were all really worried about privacy. And I mean, it's still not something that's really accepted in China. It's not. Seen as normal. Right. Even even just surrogacy by straight people. Right. So I think there's a lot of concerns around that. I was able to talk to a surrogate who's working with a blue baby client, and she's about to give birth any day now. And that was cool. I mean, it was kind of. So we're going to have a blue baby. The first blue baby any day now. And that's it for this week's episode of decrypted. Thanks for listening. We want to hear from you. So you can find me on Twitter at Doon Lawrence. And I'm at at Cari, and please help us spread the word about on new season. You can leave us a rating and a review wherever you like to. Listen this episode was produced by get curry and Lindsey credible. Our story editor was Emily abuse. Oh, thanks, also to an Vander may Akihito, and Brad stone Francesca. Levy is head of Bloomberg podcasts. We'll see you next week. Decrypted is brought to you by Hewlett Packard enterprise. Introducing HP green lake a new way to consume IT as a service. Visit H P E dot com slash green lake to learn more.

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Victorian Sex Drugs, Milk in Your Veins, Radioactive Dishes

The Weirdest Thing I Learned This Week

45:18 min | 1 year ago

Victorian Sex Drugs, Milk in Your Veins, Radioactive Dishes

"My blood type is be negative and try to live up to that a popular science we report and write dozens of science and heck stories every week and while most of the stuff we stumbled across makes it into our the articles we also find plenty of weird facts that we just keep around the office so we figured why not share those with you. Welcome to the weirdest thing I learned this week from the editors of Popular Science. I'm Rachel OATMAN. I'm Eleanor Cummins and I Mary and Maryanne is our intern right now and making her weirdest thing debut so welcome thank you we're going to start today a little bit differently than normal before we get into our fact sharing so we talk a lot about how to help promote the weirdest thing and this isn't a fun drive. Though actually you can sponsor us using the anchor APP. I remember at one point or another saying you know if you leave reviews and ratings for us on Apple. Even if you don't listen to us on apple it helps other people find the show because of algorithms and I probably gave some throwaway promise about how we might share of us on the show because that's just a thing people say on podcasts and I do a lot of repeating things that people say on podcasts but now we're going to actually share some of our favorite reviews so and I am going to read these names. Oh Joe Brown who's that I don't know it sounds like it might be the editor in chief of popular science but it's really common name vary sorry so this other Joe Brown says a very refreshing science podcast. I loved the Whimsey of this podcast. So many science podcasts are so heavy but this one had me laughing out loud three things you'd never never know delivered by three incredibly smart science journalists. That sounds unbiased me now. We have a review from chemistry teacher type lady which the rest of these reviews are real. I promise we love you Joe. Thanks Chemistry teacher Type Lady says this is my favorite podcast of all time the appropriate bits get passed into my chemistry class. The inappropriate bits get passed onto my friends and family love. You guys keep educating us on rare diseases Claire. Oh My oh my God I love by Claremont here but we will pass that along foreshore and one more for right now and then I will sprinkle some others throughout the episode Princess Banana Hammock my monarch Lubna raining long may she reign participant in a Hammock says the most delightful thing science people and nonsense people alike. I encourage you to listen to just one single episode of people who have receipts know what they are talking about. That was in all caps. I'm just trying to stay true to Princess Banana Hammocks Vision. I felt it you can wow every family member and Powell with the things you learn here with some genuine and laughs along the way or just out to these facts given to us by intelligent women with soothing voices. This podcast has made me more interesting at parties highly highly highly recommend. I love that because that is exactly how we sell L. This podcast to our listeners. It is what I wanted to do for you. I want you to freak people out at parties but in a way that makes them WanNa like talk team more even though they're really freaked out so love that thank you for listening chemistry teacher Type Lady and Princess Banana Hammock we love you and without we're going to dive into the show but like I said we're going to have some more of these. We'll have more on a future episode. Go on Apple Right now. Before you forget rate review. Thanks so on the weirdest thing I learned this week we start by offering up a little tease about some kind of factor story that we found in the course of reading writing reporting scrolling around twitter begging for apple reviews etc and then we decide between me just absolutely have to hear more about first then once we've all had time to spin little science yarns we reconvene and decide what the weirdest thing we learned this week actually was and we do it with soothing voices eleanor. Why don't you start with your T.'s? I would like to talk about radioactive dinner ware <hes>. It's a long history spooky. We can't give it up and Marianne. How about your T.'s doctors used to think? Injecting people with milk was a really good idea. I still think it's a good idea. It depends on what your end goal is. What are you doing later? Okay my tease is that a Victorian heart. Medicine eventually became a gay sex drug <hes> sign me up. You're going to shoot up some milk and then do whatever this is and then <hes> just eat some radioactive dinner popoff yeah. So what do we want to start with. I would like to hear about the Victorian text. Okay Great Yeah we can start with Victorian sex drugs or yeah. That's basically cramming together for some of the word I mean I'm not gonNA say. Victorians weren't using thing this drug for a sex who are we to say but I have to start out by saying that this is completely ripped off from an article by Alex Schwartz who was recently on weirdest thing and recently finished his internship with US Alex. This was a great article. I loved editing it as the science editor pop cy. I do a lot more editing than I do writing so most of my work is behind the scenes but I'm really proud of everything we put out but this especially I was like oh my Gosh I learned so much that I did not know going in. What a journey so everyone has to read it but I'm gonNA share the outline? Also he made his own art. Would you can only see a few follow mind Nancy it on the radio so it's good it's beautiful so we did this for pride month because <hes> Gay sex and the drug canoe and guess what the drug is it's poppers party yeah so so dilation so let's start with what poppers are. They are Amil Nitrite so you inhale this chemical and what does it do it. Lowers your heart rate it Kinda dilates blood vessels relaxes muscles so it's you feel warm in your face and head because blood is rushing there and you feel Kinda woozy because of the drop in heart rate and it also just relaxes all of your involuntary muscles and its it's popular specifically among men who have sex with men because it relaxes involuntary muscles which is a really good way to keep yourself from getting hurt if you're having oral or anal sex or any kind of sex really but it really took off in in the gay community which I will talk a little bit more about in a minute but the thing that I didn't know going in is that the history of popular starts in the Victorian era so this French chemist Antoine Velarde he synthesized Komo nitrate in eighteen forty four and even then he talked about how smelling chemicals vapor may you lightheaded now. No that's because your blood pressure drops when you smell it or rather when you inhale it what you're doing when you smell it and a few other chemists around the era described. Other physical effects like throbbing arteries flushing face increased heart rate and then came Benjamin Ward Richardson and he was like this does things to the heart like we've never seen before in eighteen sixty four key theorized that it caused oscillation the dilation of blood vessels and he actually pass it around at medical conferences so people could try it for themselves so just imagine a bunch of Victorian era doctors just doing poppers. I love buying divisive. It would go to a lot more conferences. Yeah it was yeah. The one I went to was not like that so hoppers again the community of chemists and doctors were aware of them but then they became popular as a medical treatment and this was because cardiac disease was starting to get more attention at this time and one of the most common symptoms is Angina China pictoresque which is just chest pain when the heart muscle is not getting enough blood and doctors were trying everything for this they had tried bloodletting. They'd tried brandy which I'm sure helped you feel better didn't really help with your in China and then this one physician figured out that if you put a little bit of emel nitrate on a cloth and had the patient inhale it the pain would disappear they would get a flushed face and maybe a little loopy but they felt better and there had been nothing like it and in eighteen eighty one and editor of the Boston Medical and surgical journal called it a neglected drug because doctors were kind of reluctant to use it because of that Lucci feeling is that why like sniffing anything Napkins used to be such a thing people always smelling their handkerchiefs. Oh they did a lot of <hes> that was often just cocaine. There was a lot of snuff in general victorian-era they they stuck a lot of things up there. News is and there was a lot of like carrying things around wound intens for medicinal purposes and then just kind of like bailing your face as you take it yeah propriety when using coking exactly but eventually it did it did catch on <hes> and it became one of several vasodilator that was used to treat Angina so by the early twentieth century they started to look like kind of Proto poppers 'cause they were coming in these little tens of glass vials wrapped in cloth so you would it was it looked like a little piece of the Salt Water Taffy isn't is what Alex said in the article which I just love and so if you were having a spell you would crush a capsule so it would soak through the cloth and then you could inhale it and that made a popping sound bombers. That's honestly like a genius the transportation method yeah. I think there's something so fun about <hes>. Let me just crush my drugs one second. They broke glass vials. They I think it was like it was wrapped. In cloth you would crush it and the cloth would keep the stuff like yeah yeah yeah and then then you feel great. That's the sound of doing popper so yeah then there's the question of like. When did it become again thing thing? The answer is probably always the best guests from people who have researched this is that he shouldn't prescribed poppers noticed their effects and noticed some of the sexual liter of their effects so people who were so inclined to take advantage of those side effects probably did so in the eighteen hundred it's only when the drug stopped being the most common thing for Angina and China that it becomes noteworthy as a gay drug also it's starting to be okay to be openly gay as you get into the twentieth century obviously not everywhere and not too satisfying extent but you know they're starting to be culture that we have good records of and that people were aware of outside of the culture and so that's when we start note s that game papers and so nineteen sixty we they've been out for one hundred years we have documented documented medical use and no associated fatalities which is really good for any drug and so the F._D._A.. Approves them for over the counter purchase but then they start to be associated with gay gay recreational use Don Yeah and a lot of researchers think that like this is why they got targeted and so now I'm all nitrate is illegal the reason you can still buy poppers is that another substance with really similar affects ISO BUTYL nitrite is not covered in the bed though it has to be sold as a room motorized cer- or CD cleaner or some other thing that's made up and everybody knows it and it's fine imagine being like thank. Everyone seems to be having so much fun. I now need to interfere which is basically what happened. Yeah absolutely and it is the association with the Gay Community that keeps poppers from being legal. You know there's is really no research at all suggesting they're dangerous. You know they some people I definitely was under the impression that they had the same D- drew's of doing whip its or something Cami kind of inhalant and it's actually it. It doesn't affect your brain all of the sensations you feel are because of that change in heart rate and vacillation so it can be dangerous if you have underlying heart conditions and especially if you are for example taking a lot of Agra and maybe also have a heart condition and then do poppers not so great but there are a lot of things you can do under those circumstances that would not be so great and there's some evidence I've covered a couple of studies about how they can cause damage but that seems to be a pretty rare side effect and also seems to come from like pretty pretty habitual use there like a couple case studies of people having from using them. What's the pathway or proposed connection? Oh my God I asked the right question. Yeah I wrote an article about one of these studies about how poppers offers may damage your papers and there were just a few cases in their of damage to retina and it was usually just in one eye or the other which the researchers found very strange and the one commonality we seem to be that all of these patients had been using the substance that's replaced what was originally known as Palmer's and in fact some of them it was when they switched rams from a genuine popper for if you will to one of the replacement chemicals that used to skirt regulation but they were like the the researchers have no idea why the two would act differently. They're not sure what the mechanism is but again like the relative risk is very very low. The main concern of of researchers studies like these is that because poppers are relatively speaking such a safe party drag that people might be totally careless with them right and most negative effects are due to people getting them on their skin which can cause burns earns or drinking none which I was like ooh. Does anyone do that and Alex is like only street people who don't know how to take them and I was like that's fair <hes> so if you're listening to this and you WANNA try poppers. Don't drink them there for sniffing. That's. My take advice but I learned so much from Alex article and one of the things that really surprised me is that there was a time when people thought poppers were behind H._I._V.. AIDS dates of course what hasn't been blamed for AIDS literally exactly yeah. That's a that's the one thing so you know it's the early days of the AIDS crisis the C._D._C.. I started calling hauling it AIDS in eighteen eighty two before that it was just kind of considered like a cancer that was targeting game specifically there was a lot of confusion and obviously it was a really terrible time for many people but especially the gay community and lots of people were dying and it might seem crazy now to connect poppers with a deadly epidemic but you had the wider U._S.. Community that was really saying AIDS was a game problem and was isolated to the gay community which wasn't actually true of course and which was really just about their lack of regard for all of these dying gay men so then with in the gay community and among researchers who were less horribly bigoted they were like but what is it in the gay community that is making it so much more prevalent they're like how do we stop this find out. What's actually right right? There was actually this book called death rush which was detailing the supposed connection between AIDS poppers and the poppers industry which was estimated at fifty million in nineteen seventy eight so the thesis of the book was like Big Hopper's doesn't want you to know and it was just because there's a correlation right between people who were coming in with AIDS and people who used poppers but that's because there wasn't association with gay men having sex and people who newspapers and poppers actually make penetrative gay sex safer ironic to all the haters right ironically because if your muscles are more relaxed you're less likely to have tearing and bleeding which is how a lot of H._I._V. is transmitted cell that was wild that we believe that for a while and then you know once H._i._v. was actually isolated. People were like oh now we can study how this is actually transmitted by poppers just like never really shook that besmirch on their their reputation but they have persisted as an important part of culture and I won't just reread Alex's entire article to you. There's a lot of amazing stuff here and and yeah just like what a journey for this freaky little chemical coupon deed from Victorian ladies with Angina to the streets of the Castro poppers long may they never stop ever popping uh-huh all right. We're GONNA take a break and then we'll be back with more facts. This episode of the weirdest thing I learned this week is brought to you by anchor. Anchor is an APP and website that let you create your podcast for free. It's super easy and has everything you need to create the show you WanNa make in one place the let you record and edit directly in their APP plus. They'll distribute your podcast everywhere apple podcasts spotify if I and more it's what we use to distribute the show that you're listening to right now plus. They'll connect you with advertisers so you can make money on your podcast. Download the anchor APP or go to anchor Dot F._M.. To get started <music> okay we're back and I'm going to read a couple more reviews before we get to eleanor's fact okay so this one is either from Mr slow hours or Mrs Lowers so uh-huh whichever you are or both thanks for reviewing five stars. CAN WE HANG OUT GUESS MR slower. Mrs Lowers we can. I assume the girls giggling would annoy me but it was the opposite it's endearing endearing. I can't think of another term to describe their banter and what sound like real friendship. It's true it's so true. Thank you join us. Mrs Lowers misters lower. They sound like Nerdy B._F._F.'s. They are far from stupid and they work hard and seemed mm to enjoy making this podcast. It's educational hilarious my new favorite this is extremely validating to me. Also our friendship is true I own. I recently sang a duet of shallow. I tell everyone we're about Bradley Cooper so it's real zoo. We both really to anyway. Do Lou one more this one is from uncle nine one one of the weirdest thing up speaking millennial twinkies thank you for that. Unfortunately you accidentally made your review a one star review instead of a five star review <hes> but thank you for recognizing that we are up speaking millennial twinkies. We appreciate you uncle Duke Nine one one. I can only assume you're still listening because most of the messages I get like this come from the people who stalked me so thanks all right eleanor yes. Let's talk about radioactive dinner where okay so this is one of those facts that I can't stop talking about. It's appeared in passing two of my stories but I decided it was time to more fully explore it so yes it is now time to talk about uranium glass so uranium is <hes> naturally radioactive heavy metal. You probably know it as the substance that people enrich into atomic weapons and power plants but it was once a popular substance in glassware so starting in the eighteen thirties entrepreneurs began adding uranium to the recipe as a way to add new colors to their products WCHS as we've talked about multiple times on this show colors are hard. They're so hard that people decided to turn to a naturally radioactive heavy metal which you yeah which colors make sense a green is really hard so it it was often made with arsenic. She'll she'll green toxic green. This is a similar story so one of the first producers was an Austrian guy named France Xavier Riedel and he's from the very popular wine glass company real and he was the fifth generation of his family in this line of work already in the eighteen thirties his ancestor had started the company in that seventeen sixties and they just kept handing down to new Riedel's and each Riedel it was expanding the company scope so by that time it included everything from traditional glassware to like Chandelier parts to Francis thing was he was a really great engraver but it was a very competitive times if he was like. How do we make our retail? Oh products stand out. I don't know why that name is just tickling me because it sounds like we'll the POK mon.. I can make anything about pokemon but I digress be these glass glass. People are out of control in this blog. Doug that was like it's spelled Rydell ridell like Ridell High School in the John Hughes movie okay but it's they were like pronounced like needle so now I know I don't look like a fool to all the glassmakers listening to this podcast okay so so Francis solution to this problem of an oversaturated competitive market was an Gelb and Anna grund so basically he created these two new products which he named her his daughter Anna in German gelb means yellow and Grun means green and they were the two main colors that you could get by adding uranium to your glass mix. Honestly it looks a lot like urine does not a very attractive color but some of it maybe like green great. Be are happily if I'm being kind or maybe just a radioactive glow and the style totally took off Francis ideas spread across Europe and it remained popular for almost one hundred years it's unclear if people were concerned about any potential danger of uranium the objects glow under an ultraviolet light and if you passed a geiger counter over them they definitely beep but mostly a teams that they were just you know trying to get ahead of their competitors. In this fierce glass market of the mid eighteen hundreds also weren't people like taking radioactive tonics for their health wolf yet including on radioactive makeup yes so in context this was the least of their concerns and it was working. People were gobbling up these objects you could get uranium glass serving trays decorative bowls vases Kendall stoppers dinner plates probably an urn but that would be my hope guys object it could be a uranium glass object and the process continued to evolve yielding new Hughes basically if you added these heat sensitive chemicals you kind of control the distribution of green and the milky white collar so you see a lot of glasses where like the body of the Chalice is like this like deep green color and then at the edges you know like where you put your lips to it. It's this milky white and people really liked that. I'm not the biggest fan but to each their own and this created this whole booming industry called vaseline glass because it kind of looked like what vaseline look like in a VAT and don't you love to have Acelino appeal decorating your home. I put vaseline on all my furniture. So during the Great Depression uranium glass declined in production in popularity it had a little bit eventually to do with the war effort which is really interesting so when the United States realized that uranium was a great weapon when enriched enriched and process today carefully restricted it secretly to which is like a weird idea but they were doing that so it's really hard to get your hands on uranium like any uranium that was like on the market was going straight to this war effort and apparently the Glass Museum Liam of New Zealand says that the British government actually confiscated materials from uranium glassmakers in that period and the early nineteen forties. I assume without explaining anything they were just like no more so rude but I also think it has a little bit to do with thing's falling out of fashion like if you look up uranium glass which I implore you to do. It looks like something you would see in a haunted Victorian home <hes> it should sit exclusively on hand embroidered lace doilies. It's ugly <hes> it might be something like I was like thinking like. Can I call this ugly and I was like well the only way I would buy it was for irony like to put it out and be like look at my Ugly Cup so I think it's okay to say that and if anyone disagrees I understand and my thesis about the changing aesthetics is further supported by this invention of something called fiesta ware so I got yeah I love you. Yes okay so I realized my grandma had fiesta to wear. When I was growing up we would go over to her house and every ice cream like everything in the fiesta ware bowls? Have you ever know okay so there are just like these really sturdy enormous lake proportionally personally challenged ceramic bowls and then plays all sorts and they have like these concentric circles in them and they come in. I feel like they're all in like funny colors. My grandma fiesta color yeah my grandma had meant and green ones that I remember about and then like a strawberry pink. What what is your mom? Have I remember having a lot of orange. Definitely we got a lot of it on sale at Boskovski whereas that what is that Oh it's department store. That was our regional department urban store. GotTa close now. I'm fishing because in the Nineteen Thirties the homer Laughlin Company of West Virginia which started fiesta ware was producing. It's Red Bulls and saucers with uranium oxide so I just wanted to know where you acquired yours in what year it was not secondhand with okay in the late ninety s okay so all all is well but basically yeah the original way that they started to get that like famous fiesta wear red orange color was is by taking uranium oxide which has been described by various sources as being a little bit naturally read but it definitely had to do with the chemical engineering process they were using and they could die these ceramics with this glaze and in nineteen sixty nine the the primary fiesta ware company stopped producing the line but at least seven other people were sort of doing this red orange fiesta ware glass at the time those have all kind of petered out like you can definitely still acquire fiesta way but obviously does not have the hold over the American psyche wants did it was so wildly popular at the time that Andy Warhol collected fiesta ware which is such a random fact. I learned in my fiesta ware adventure anyway as much as I hate uranium glass clearly I love yesterday I felt also like taken back to a time in my childhood when I exclusively lived off of snack walls and Oh God yeah act walls and fiesta ware America. I'm glad someone understands but speaking yeah of collectors like Mr Hall Uranium Glass is actually a very sought after collectible today so I was looking I was looking for a while at a rare set of Vasan lean glass shades which are all these creepy milk white like yellow. What is a glass shade does any lamps yeah? I mean look smaller than that. They looked like decapitated handbells. I was there just for like tiny little okay little lamps maybe with candles instead of that makes sense to me. Maybe we put them over. Candle there eight for more than five thousand dollars wow so people are just freaking hype about this uranium vacillating glasses this whole market the only place I've ever seen this reported on which I think is part of my obsession is I'm just like how do people not talk about this. All the time is in collectors journals like they just want to talk about their uranium glass all day fortunately for all of them for Andy Warhol and his ilk these objects will they do trigger a geiger counter rating according to most estimates. They're probably no more radioactive men putting your face to your television set so much in it right on the licking your T._v.. And licking uranium glass cup equal <hes>. Let's say you have any of these collectibles haunting your attic. Don't be afraid to grab them with your bare hands and get them listed on Ebay because no one wants them in their own house. Wow Amazing. 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Thank you so much for having me worse. So why don't you tell us about injecting people with milk I would love to so we should be really grateful that when we get transfusions today at modern hospitals titles we can expect to receive clean human blood because in the sixteen hundreds and in the centuries that followed physicians likes to inject animals and humans with everything from milk to urine beer sheep's blood saline solutions and per flora Laura Chemicals which are a group of polymers that are kind of like Teflon so today we we know what human blood is. It's this perfectly engineered cocktail that delivers oxygen and nutrients throughout our body like urine like much like urine our blood blood vessels form a hundred thousand mile highway for blood truck wasted kidneys when we're injured blood forms clots plug the wound blood is precise blood is efficient. It is life giving but for much of human history we did not understand exactly what it was as we know the basis of ancient medicine was the idea that good health was achieved through the balance of bodily fluids especially blood so practices like leaching and bloodletting that tinkered with your internal equilibrium seem legitimate so it wasn't really until William Harvey's discovery of Blood Circulation in sixteen twenty eight that really quote paved the way for natural philosophers to begin imagining the possibility of putting things into veins and arteries for the first time and that's according to medical historian Holly Tucker so at this point in history people oh really start wondering what they could pump into the human body to cure diseases or change personalities one very fun suggestion is the English anatomist astronomer and architect Sir Christopher wren thought that AOL wine and even opium could be a good substitute for human blood which would've been fun to. I guess some people are still kind of trying yeah. That's amazing. They were like oh we just inject stuff because obviously blood is who you are. Blood is a personality then you will just become that thing fun is yeah wow and so sixteen sixties saw sort of European craze for animal blood transfusions English Dr Richard Lower used quills as a an aqueduct between dogs for dog to dog transfusion because they're hollow like yes it was literally like a dog and then a bunch of quills and then a hole in another and he wrote of the procedure this done so up the skin and dismiss him and the dog will leap up from the table and shake himself and run away as if nothing ailed him kickoff poked him in the Bunny Hill sure you'll in more lively now so shortly after that lower famously transfused lamb blood into a clergyman and I have a visual aid for this which just might amuse you guys <unk> own lamb and the man and not looking at each other both are shames shake so this is the kind of stuff they were very into around the same time in sixteen sixty seven French physician John Baptiste tastiness blood a fifteen year old boy with Leeches twenty times and then he transfused him with about a cup and a half of sheep blood. The boy survived so he did it again with a laborer who also survived and then later that winter denise transfused a noted Madman. Everyone calls him a madman so a madman named Antoine with calf's blood this guy though he did die and there was a whole controversy where Antoine's wife blamed denise was charged with murder good and then he was acquitted and then later turned out the Antoine died from arsenic arsenic poisoning. His wife was accused of killing him but because of Ood U._C. in all of that the whole trial everything in part of all of that controversy animal blood transfusions were outlawed by the end of the century. Do you think that she was like hey this doctors turn this new. You should try. I think so yeah she knew it up. She's just like asking him around like busy. Intersection that looks so if you kind of fast forward one hundred years then you see some of the first successful human blood transfusions and you also see a lot of really messy horrific failed ones so at this point in history exchanging bodily fluids and doing blood transfusion was seen as totally undependable an untenable because we still didn't know about blood types we didn't know about bloodborne diseases and we didn't even know how to keep blood supplies from coagulating which is kind of gross is eighteen hundred this is like the seventeen hundreds and so physicians started casting about for alternatives as one University of Michigan pathologist noted in nineteen sixty. Fifty nine frustrated and discouraged with blood transfusion product effective substitutes were sought and for a short time milk seemed to be the panacea. Oh man the idea was that the fatty particles and milk could help regenerate white blood cells so it might be used to treat diseases amazing yeah. They just really took that idea and ran with it. The first milk transfusions took place in the midst of an eighteen fifty four cholera epidemic when two doctors brought a cow into Toronto Hospital and pumped the animal's animals look into their own patients but don't worry the milk was passed through gauze and kept in a warm bowl so it was totally cool good. That's how you keep milk from going that. It was worth aiming it through the gauze. The results were mixed. Some people did very well. Other people died a funny little side note is the two doctors resigned sort of indignation after the city of Toronto refused their application for a quote good cow. Wow okay yeah so many more doctors. Oh followed suit and I hope I have a bunch of old timey Dr Names for you guys so a doctor T G Thomas transfused cow's milk into a woman suffering from severe uterine hemorrhaging a doctor William Pepper remained optimistic about the procedure even when his patient complained of a headache fever and renal issues after their cow milk infusions Dr J. 's proud Dr J. Proud suggested a medical legal use for milk transfusions and I propose that they might prolong life to allow the victim of an assault to identify his assailant does prop you up long enough milk to see justice done syringe so you can point at someone. Dr Bryson of Saint Louis claimed in eighteen seventy eight that the procedure would in a few years entirely supersede the transfusion of blood. Do they all approach their patients and say you're injecting one percent but you could being if you wanted to. I'm I'm Dr Pepper Dr Proper yes today we would do it with soya milk or whatever for the Mel I do every morning I haven't green drink and then I inject like my oatmeal. Look at me now. In eighteen seventy three he injected one point five ounces of goat's milk into a patient Spain. This patient was soon wracked with vertigo chest pain and uncontrollable eye movement and so naturally how doubled the dose of goat milk or more please. The patient died in his own account of the procedure that he was of the opinion had no effect he continued his experiments on dogs folks he bled seven of them to near death and then attempted to revive them with milk. He performed a milk transfusion on a seriously ill woman in front of a live audience and they watched the goat was brought into the operating room and milked before they're very is just to prove proved that it was there was some there was a lot of arguments among physicians but how fresh yeah that was like a sticking point naturally yeah so how had one last hypothesis which was I keep on putting animal milk in people what I really need easy to put human milk in human people so in eighteen eighty he acquired three ounces of breast milk from a new mother to us for a final infusion experiment in which the patient's breathing stopped by the second ounce of Milky administered she was supposedly revived by artificial respiration and quote injections of morphine and Whiskey what that's all I know about so uncomfortable death seems better and it was after this final experiment that how how kind of conceited and this bizarre chapter of medical history came to an end the end of the milk injection craze he did. He did the work he did. He tried everything we tried. Everything there have been of course advances in blood transfusions fusion since then we learned in nineteen one about blood groups in the nineteen thirties we drained cats and then we filled them with hemoglobin based substitutes which led all of their kidneys to fail another that was going to be a good one more failed hypotheses sees we've tested other blood substitutes in humans though even the most promising efforts were later found to increase the risk of heart attacks. There's only one artificial blood product called hemopure that has ever been approved for sale and it's only legal in South Africa and Russia in the U._S.. It can only be administered under specific circumstances such as when a Jehovah's Witness refuses human blood transfusions so all of this is wild to me because even though we can engineer incredibly sophisticated prosthetics to replace loss lens we still still rely on donations for our modern supply of blood and that actually has a lot of problems anything from surgery to Cancer Treatments Injury Care Organ Transplants and childbirth might require a supply of blood in catastrophic scenarios car accidents in remote areas. His natural disasters overseas combat lack of access to blood is its own medical crisis each year about sixty thousand people in the U._S.. Die from hemorrhaging before they can reach an emergency room the amount of blood we need never matches the amount of blood. We have a man named Dr Sir. Alan doctor told me that an interesting side note it was meant to be in my dentist is named Dennis also one time we interviewed a horse researcher whose last name was like horsemen. Yes uh-huh and they say there's free will by some estimates. If a scientific group were able to create or develop ineffective blood substitute that can do everything the blood can it would be worth fifteen billion dollars annually yeah. Let's get an John. Joseph was trying to get on with this milk stuff. He was a pioneer visionary. All this is to say that century and a half of passed since the milk craze and there is still no safe effective artificial blood product approved in the U._S. or Europe we have still yet to come up with a synthetic solution to this seemingly unsolvable biological puzzle for now artificial blood remains a holy grail of trauma medicine and efforts to imitate have all been in vain. Oh she did <hes> yeah amazing on well. My blood type is be negative and I tried to live up to that. Mine is a plus and I also try to. I'm an positive I don't feel anything about my time. I think I am at least I'm an awesome thing. I hope I'm never been transfusion. I'm the only one who can speak for me and my mom my mom to be okay. We'll carry around a gallon of milk. You help me Doctor. It's fresh what was the weirdest thing we milk blood yeah for sure also the username Prentice Banana hammock Princess Banana Hammock one well congratulations. Thank you on your first Lynn. Let's all drink some milk from a uranium chalice. Oh yes we if it looks like there's vastly rubbed up to the weirdest thing I learned this. Week is a popular science podcast where available on all major podcast platforms so subscribe wherever you're listening now and if you like what you hear please rate review us on itunes that helps other Weirdos find the show you can buy our merch.

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Live in Sydney for Mardi Gras!

The Gays Are Revolting

1:34:22 hr | 9 months ago

Live in Sydney for Mardi Gras!

"This is a lip media. Podcast for the days are voting weekly news content brigades for the first time here in Sydney. Well we put the Jay Leno debates. Qa plus and. We're here tonight to help you help you. Beat the best fucking g you can be so. Thank you for comment you now just before we start. I am supposed to introduce host tonight but I did have an announcement to make unfortunate. Because Tom is here we have had to reinforce lockout law. So Thomas Jeff Smith. Thank you very much. Thank you up next much. Like Sydney's tram system. He's a little bit slow. Ha quite broken and nobody wants to ride him. It's Kyle Elsa and what a treat from New Zealand tonight the beautiful talented person just into Auden but we also have like a little bit. And lastly he loves the Sydney Gays so much that he has decided to move here. You guys have a welcome before we kick off tonight. We would like to acknowledge the indigenous custodians of this land past and present we acknowledge and respect a continuing culture and the contributions they make to life of this city and this region. We'd also like to acknowledge the que- out is that fought and died for the rights that we have today and for things like Mardi Gras to be able to happen amazing and for us to be able to gather at evenings like this which is also also just very exciting. We let me joined by a special guest later in the night assaulted who is a Saudi man who sought asylum with these partners here in Australia. And you probably have heard some of their stories in the news but I'm incredibly excited and to be quite honest a little bit nervous to have a chat about that so we'll have that later in the show also at the very end of the night we will have a Q. And is if you have any questions kind tcmid dies but also trying to think of them inside those in your memory for for later in that when we do the Q. and A. and also please go ahead take photos videos throughout the night. I just asked if you could tag at gays revolting pod. I have a court case. I'm currently doing that. I'm here tonight. So if you could tag looks like an answer as well that will come in handy. You may get a subpoena later but thank you guys and I just WanNa say a really big thank you to giant for having us this evening please give them around the PLA venues stunning and now. It's I think it's actually been the longest we've ever break we've ever had since the last time we actually sat down and recorded because I know we got because we were supposed to do after the Melbourne show but apogee swell and so all. This stuff happened so I'm sorry. It's been a bit of a break so last time we sat down and did this was the Melvin live recording. Yes and obviously Sydney's better but we haven't caught up what's news what's happening. What's really I'm currently? Because I don't know how much time I have left. I've just got to sixty second about a couple of hours. I've decided to squeeze my entire year into now. Brussels Movember October fest November. It's happening right under fun time right. I just went for three days on a lot of. Md Talk didn't fun was mad at me this show if I don't do the show for two weeks fucking night man. You're a nightmare. We can talk all the time you go in the room and talk for forty minutes and get it out there doing therapy for you home I have. I have exciting news for the past seven years. I have a boyfriend. He's He's very handsome and he's a doctor and he is my handsome. Dr Boyfriends and he literally cannot describe him without saying doctrine for me. A LOTTA FRIENDS. Don't so we've been together for a couple of months? I didn't want to see in the house you know. Yeah but my friends even though he's nine and just like has doctor boyfriend no no. He's a he's saving people's trash mutating adults also backstage. Yeah Yeah yes thank you. He's he's not here because he's in Melbourne. Just saving is how did you meet and had it? How did he? How good for me now. I know I should be getting a check but he he was. We met at a really lovely little venue in Melva. Now if you guys have been to Melvin before it's a gorgeous little cocktail bar called the Peo- I thought you were GonNa say we got to Atlanta but for the people that I've fractured my show. I'm actually technically still having fractured shoulder. And I'm supposed to be wearing a sling but we got so fucked up two weeks in his lost my sling. Whatever the pain during the week we met at the Peel I was making out with this guy. And you know when you sort of just a bit high and you're like it's how old great love Stories Stott High Hose Right. You know like there's different scoring system when you're a little bit high so I was making out with this guy and I was like we Ohio heart and this other guy sort of came to me and was like so I started making out with him for like an hour and a half and I'll say oh this guy's I don't want to marry him so mad cow him for about an hour and a half he was like doing to my place and I was like yes show and he said Oh well let me just in juice in my friends and say goodbye to them and so then I met this other guy friends who who was who was Dr Boyfriend and does have name by the way. Do you know he's saying no? That's actually really awkward. I didn't anyways. We're back to his place and that's the night that fact because I've rediscovered bottoming aiden. They'll ask your clapping heat in the front and fact you're in a row. You're the only person in a row of people in rugby uniforms. That's not wearing a rugby uniform. Oh sorry what was it forty uniforms. You're the I reckon you must be bottoming loss. If you're I love seasons yes we need to leave that alone ESCO. Yeah has anything happened to you little while not a lot. Really? Nothing new direct mail done very was. I'm not went to Molly's the other night. And saw missy lemmings performing. She's reading the fuck out of everybody. That was sitting there in anticipation he's DOT COM. Name me I'm terrified. I think if it's a lovely shout outs north baby drag baby drag look really excellent Cleveland night here in Sydney baby drag. It's sort of a not where people that aren't experienced. What's a Code Drag Padilla's? Where did they do that? Just dolla dollar Australian Dollars K. Way All right Rod. Sorry say that a few years ago Mardi gras and I went to. I was having friends and we were like. Let's go to act so we went there and it was the underway a party and I didn't know so stripped down to my undies. Spent half an hour. There was like this is not the potty for me and then when I left they'd lost my bag and I walked time in the bar managers gym shorts and a singlet site. Talk same story. Let's get on without topics. These people paid money. I just wanted to say something. Kyle get Sassy when we go into stay. I Know Kyle. I didn't know you had so much before me experience. Also show Yogurt but we get a lot of messages saying like I really relate to kyle as like the sweet nice one. It's an introduction but then we go into say and he's like a fucking grandma fear ooh please join me. Okay yes sorry sorry. Kyle trying to keep things control your so topic. One is may addressing. My problem with coyotes buckling. Everybody wanted to talk about something. It's an age old question in our community. I'm sure we've thought about this with friends and brothers and sisters. Is there a wrong way to come out of the closet? The answer is yes. Would you ask yourself? I came out by passing out in the bathroom of Gay Karaoke Bar Is That when you dad card? Yeah I had to call. My Dad was six and he thought I was in bed. Yeah that's a bad way and I said I'm not I'm actually currently per se. Just let me finish this number or get off the stage. I'm kind of busy looting. I said I'm actually passing out in a bathroom and I don't know what universe I'm in right now and it's a gay Bah and I'm very sorry dead. He came and carried me out but what I wanted to talk about is something that we may have seen on twitter in the news. Recently there has been a little twitter twitter neuro conundrums about a recent announcement that Jamila Djamil one of the size of the good place. A very good very good. Tv show now. Hbo announced that she would actually be a judge on a new reality TV show. I love me. Some Reality T. V. also mispronounce that she was going to be emceeing as well. What the fuck what are you talking about and so this reality. Tv show is called legendary and it covers. It's a competition about the ballroom. Say No Boreham. Coach does it. Who's in Paris is burning or we should specify the day I mean the the ballroom scene of this and like the strictly ballroom scene. It's it's not strictly Ning for the straight people repose Drag Race. Thank you thank you thank you and and and there was a lot of backlash to this announcement despite. Jamila being women of color and she's quite outspoken on twitter. She's launched a lot of campaigns about body positivie sort of celebrities. She's a number. One target is the KS. The KARDASHIANS DI. She's very outspoken. But people still thought the right fit for someone to judge a queer dancing ballroom sharp. That were anything related anytime before the good places pretty turn like the one episode I watched it launched into this argument about whether we're gate keeping our culture okay keeping keeping and is that the right thing to do in two thousand twenty we wanNA quality. We want everyone to have the good stuff. We want everyone to come out wearing shit like this shopping. This is what pick up the groceries in Dover on me but the point is the gatekeeper is absolutely justified. In my opinion in this case because Boerum coacher is something that was created by people that were marginalized even within our community they had to create that and they had to be gatekeepers of it because they weren't accepted anywhere else so for someone that they perceived to be assist straight woman to be judging the show you know it was a bit of a no brainer kind of it. Kind of Funky. Forgive me if I'm wrong. But there was also all sort of double-handed it was the fact that people didn't know that she was queer and but also the fact that she's South Asian and yet the ballroom. New York scene was predominantly black and southern it was predominantly black and trans in New York in the eighties. Is where the same sort of culminated. So there was a weird disparity in the A number of notable members of the Trans Community's stood out and said Hey I actually applied for this and I didn't get it and it went to this person instead as in kind of retaliation to this backlash Jamila actually came out as a queer woman. And then I'm sorry guys. It got route complicated wick because is an anyone's place to say you're using your as a defense. Is You know or to question someone's narrative as none of us like very convenient for her to come out at that time like why. Come out when told us very convenient? Like y yeah but that's a very dangerous territory you because quite often a lot of us come out at the point when we finally have an option we spend so much and obviously this is on a mainstream scale in television and press releases. And that's what stuff but individual coming out stories for people experience it is. You went through school hiding and making up excuses. Things kept happening. You're like oh I went. I was asleep. I didn't know US fucking when Tom when I rang. My father three. Am from. That wasn't a choice. That wasn't the most convenient time to come out and I'm sure you would have said something similar like I wish you picked a better time. Yeah yeah other than three. Am coveted. Veart's walls I see what you're saying in that I it seems opportune. It's like she's she's also a person of color female in to get me and that's not an easy position to be on the television industry. So I kind of. Don't blame him for not coming out as queer at that time and then and then having feeling like maybe it's the final Straw thing like. She calls a lot of backlash online especially with the health like there was a lot of. It was sailing consistencies with what she was saying. Instead of just like going and talking to her about it everyone was just blossomed online. Let your fucking liar and so a lot of people are having forget the name because very hard on Chow's now on condition when I'm so obsessed with Montreal really. I'd never heard I've always thought it'd be a really good drag name. Yes by proxy. Welcome to the stage which houses by proxy. I've been trying to hasn't by proxy these guys but talking. Hey you know. She said in her statement. I hadn't come out early because I wanted to. Avoid Something Words Performance for formative bandwagon jumping. Which is something that's happening? And in my opinion I know this isn't a very popular opinion but it does remind me of jv coming out as non binary and positive of food a few months ago and it is a fundamentally commercially driven decision. Absolutely is it legitimises. Capitalistic no practices. Yes people you cannot say the. Jv table say they were gonNA living with HIV or people that haven't come to terms with it before they enter. The entertainment industry are not doing it to make money doing it. Because they're scared shitless because they're only marginalized and treated like Shit and there was a book launch an MA makeup line that same week. I I absolutely don't doubt that it was a difficult thing to do but I think we are getting into a very gray area. This whole podcast area. Very Good Morning to talk about well actually. Here's the fact. He is a tweet that she said he's a fact. He is a tweet that she sent months before this whole controversy happened someone just random fans on twitter said something along the lines of. I love you so much. The only way I could love you more if you queer and she responded at the time quoted here I'm on the spectrum but I do lean more towards boys I think most of us are on the spectrum but we have been conditioned to believe that we have to pick aside people fall in love with people happens all the time and it's beautiful that is the definition of Quia. There is there is not a better definition of queries and no one noticed okayed at the time when she tweeted that twice so she was obviously open to the idea of it. But my issue with this whole situation is actually more about the fact that this is an incredibly cultural show but you want to start getting into arguing a non queer person or persons. It hasn't come out yet as we are judging people within again stop fucking watching ripples drag race because Michelle visage has nothing to do with drag and should not be. The bill went into costume. Ross as judge limousine yeah on riposte drag race because we see them as sort of place holders for our so members outside the the community and I think the decision behind putting someone Jamila as a judge was of this can be in what's called an audience surrogate Kinda like Kyle on. Our show is it. It's I'm here awake. Oh God I do think there's an interesting contrast because in the very same week. Phillip Schofield. Yeah it was like. He was met with such like warm admiration. Tv presents a case of of their own volition not within the middle of a turmoil and was met with a lot of positive feedback from the. Yeah I think it's my watermelon flies everywhere your things. Are you guys watermelon scurvy? I just need to aid its prescription. Because they're watermelon kitchen but that was that was met with a very different reaction. But I just used to backtrack a little bit Phillips Garfield. Can you feel it running for so? This is someone who's been on British TV for a very long time. Is that God? He always see popping up on your facebook and it's It's all the time and also someone and we've spoken to people in the show with intimate people who have heterosexual relationships. Marianne children and then come out later in life and was embraced by the community. But at the same time we were sort of crucifying someone for coming out as queer and I think the tricky area is is we have. We tend to question. I think the validity of coming out as queer especially when people are in Hetero presenting relationships at the time. I think it's something bisexual. People face all the all the time if they come out when they happen to be dating someone of the opposite gender at the same time it is a woman of color. That's everyone's favorite sort of scapegoat to take down so it doesn't surprise me that one person was met with adulation and but the circumstances were so competitive where people come out as a defense like that like me. You Think Kevin Spacey. How did you come out? How'd you come out not like that? How did you come out? You just decided early. Episodes decided it was the right time for you. Did you sort of feel like live in you and you couldn't keep it a secret anymore. I I felt like she was clutching at straws. Let me talk. I like it when celebrities. Come out like when it's like on their terms like they can say like a like a speech or something. It'd be really inspiring. I don't think celebrities have like an obligation to come out in any way to anyone but I think like they do have the option to do some real good with it. Like there was Nikki tutorials. Quite recently Oh Yeah Yeah. And she was forcefully like she. She was being blackmailed. Big different she got such a good reaction from and she really did well with it. So I don't like this. I like coming onto five something. Maybe you shouldn't be doing and then being under no no actually I'm queer. It's fine I think that is Let's look at the situation. That's that was that was fairly similar kind of thing and people sort of embraced it because we know what a gay man is. Netflix goes back to the Philip. Scofield society knows what a gay man is when a young pretty woman who's had relationships where he's having a relationship with a man. Yeah says I'm attracted to women people sort of had this it's a phase or it's an excuse or defence. No you can still be. You can still be bisexual and be having a relationship with a man. You can be a bisexual woman. That's having a relationship with a man and we'll never have sex with another woman again but that doesn't mean you're not bisexual anymore and it's something that I think actually gay men in the room and actually probably a lot of lesbian women. Pay attention to I at school had girlfriends and was having sex with girls and then I went through then I was bisexual and having sex both and then was a gay man and I've always framed that as I thought I was straight. I thought I was bisexual and now I know that I'm a gay man. And I've recently learned that's actually a really unhealthy way of framing. It I was. I was bisexual. This is not a passing through thing and people can go from one to the other back again and it's still completely valid and so when we're sort of looking at this situation where judging it because we because it's a woman who's in a relationship with a man and going. Yeah you're saying that you like women I don't know I think we need like a council to decide like she needs to perform the seven wonders is yoga. Wade into come out is going to having real issue out that terrifying. That's GONNA be a real wildfire for communities that go deep poly-amorous relationship those babboons fishes. I saw that I thought that's what I'll probably look like the day after Mardi Gras I was going to get his much as it did. Then putting the Nick's topic on which will probably get deep against stuff coming up. Trigo voting for this one will be some words used probably slurs against people community and I apologize. We'll try not to use them but it might be easier to explain. Try No point. I'm joking God so i WanNa talk about the A. N. Z. said Mardi Gras campaign. Yeah we've got a van in the second one work. Oh yes thank you. Thank you for the homeland just to recap for anyone that means it on social media and stuff so there was that said that eighty percent of Qa plus. Australians received aggressive homophobic slurs directed at them in the last twelve months most of them from. Kyle apparently thank you. So hey what the fuck fuck you so? I decided to create a quote a loves loves campaign so as opposed to a love speech campaign. They have done a lot of sounds mighty grab before they were the ones that did the gainsaid Gedeon. Yes love them that I thought that was. That's the kind of branding I want but this one did not go down as well as the guy. Tm unfortunately so there was a few even positive. The campaign They main part that has upset people was there was a video that was released and it featured lgbt. Australians looking at a camera quite solemnly and repeating this. Liz heard over time. A lot of them are quite young people and it was the response was incredibly triggering to say the least very quickly there is no there was no warning of it which I think is an issue. The next thing they also released was hurt block web. What do you call it a plugging and so is the thing you could put onto your web browser that would stop homophobic or transphobic mode rainbow and stuff. We don't sort of their own ads now. Well that's the thing because it doesn't block video content whatsoever written word next ad which is also the poster campaign and the idea of the poster campaign was to replace words traditionally associated with a shared online. I think it was only released in Sydney or the prices are only up sitting like trans people are so fabulous and the idea was no no. That's not what is said. It was it said. Trans people are sick and then waited a few seconds of being so fabulous also the visual prices that were posted up on on. It's it's like lesbian. Just needs a good man and it was like to have a team of like dad writers writing this. I read it the idea of that why not. I'm not defending it all plays. I just tried to explain that. The second to the idea of that part of the campaign was to be like. Oh we're used to hearing these. Let's rephrase the conversation about these people in this. That was the idea. Let's talk about how it went. Swimmingly this is anyone that's worked in marketing knows when you do a marketing campaign there has to be a code action. There has to be some point to it and the fundamental issue with this is the CO two action in this campaign is. Let's stop using these words and start using positive words. Yeah but instead of shirk showcasing the positive yes. They actually just punched down a bunch of minorities them to repeat a lot of traumatic words without a trigger warning so I was flipping through through through through my. What is the twitter twitter co speaking? Through my tick Tock. Today I was speaking to my twitter. Just stop for a inbetween. My porn viewing checking. What my friend was anything so I was just scrolling through and it actually stopped on that. Trans people sick give what the fuck is this. I don't know how they do put the subtitle is pop up. If you haven't clicked on you know you can see and you just say faggot. Yeah on your phone. I hate to use the definitely triggered the F. Word I hate it. I can't even like the surname fog. Rt like I it's like Oh I hate that word say eight said and bounce thing I think fundamentally the Coda action was fucked up on this it should have been the other way round. Words have not been there instead. There should have been a number of members of the community explaining what words a positive and reinforcing for one another lift each other up because it normalizes speech. Sorry to go in a bit of rent hit but something that a lot of straight people vaas me day today is what what simple they say. Why don't you just reclaim that word? Why don't you just make it your own? And so it doesn't work anymore. But we don't WANNA use by banks to well the issue is we can't reclaim it because banks to think it's okay for it to be broadcast on twitter. People legitimately still think it's okay to use these words in mainstream media and I sent Yo sticker. Oh my God I say let let me sorry. Look at this. This was yes. Sorry guys order. This was at my tram. Stop in a very queer. Friendly talked this inbetween eighty six and and circuit to gay bars. I frequently kicked out of just at the trim. Stop someone put a sticker that said Kua AIDS KICKAPOO FDA to death so I'm sorry that's shocking but it shocked me and I had to like dolls. Albany these were stuck around. Tram stops and the thing is this. Language is so prevalent. It's so prevalent. And it's somewhat socially acceptable to use it. It's very hard to reclaim a slow and turn it into something positive. Which is why am I where people were still being a sort of affected by on a daily basis and so I hear kids saying now like three days ago and the trauma I literally like. Oh like I was at finished the day and I was walking to my tram. Stop just the same one. I go to every day and I just had my headphones and I was watching something and then all of a sudden I saw this person like yelling and I was just like what the fuck is this person saying staring directly at me and all of a sudden all I hear his faggot screaming so loud that everyone around me I looked up. And they're all staring at me and I was just like takes me back to when I was in high school and someone would say that to me and I was like. Please please. Don't get on my fucking tram like just Dr and I was just sitting on there just like petrified coal. Josh and I was just like I don't know what to do right now. Like this is ridiculous and then watching the fucking. I ended at some you kidding you probably saw it on the same day this week. Like and that's why this language company throwing. It was interesting because within the same week I have this early for. Police released very similar video. Where they read mean tweets which also included a number of slows. Hate speech and their action was much quicker. They took it down probably within a day. They were like really. We're really sorry that was inappropriate to allow speech any sort of space even if it is for members of our community you don't know the context of people consuming or being exposed to it. It's different from from Jimmy. Kimmel web Taylor swift goes someone called me fat on Instagram. And you'll laugh because these people were minorities all minorities. We're not like what they instead like what they're trying to do. They're trying to start a conversation with shock value. They could've done in a better way. I guess I'm happy as well like it could have been done in a lot worse way like we're in the wasn't people like screaming this someone coming from our community and they paid for it which was also nice. Yeah I think the important thing is. I don't think anyone's angry at the people that are. I think Controversial thought but advertise advertising guys and the goal of the campaign. It's actually technically a good campaign in then. It gives you the emotions that you're supposed to feel when you watch as the incredible Nicolas's pointed out which is which is the thing that I'm most angry about. This ad is that it's being promoted to queer people who are attending Mardi Gras. You've seen that ad then. You've probably liked modern facebook. You probably leaving Sydney or you probably have been to a gay bar in Australia or something like that. It's not the not putting this on television. Not they're not sending it to the people that actually pointed out which transpose are attending Mardi Gras. That your show. These ads should be shying no offense front row but in the grand final of the AFL people have probably dealt with. I think you probably have dealt with that kind of behavior from certain parts of the community. But they've specifically targeted to community because what they're trying to show you is not actually. Let's say listen. Let's show the people that might give us money that it looks like we're teaching a lesson. Some ads like it's not a surprise to us at those words exists. No we missed does seeing those young people with that and they were. They looked emotional and they probably were. It was probably very traumatic experience for them to feel that if the Middle Australians civilians that aren't really connected to these communities soul that ad you'd actually might have the desired effect that the ad had but don't fucking show us. We was using the right way I think is mighty gras like you get so many good advert campaigns and stuff and all that kind of uplifting and happy and like those ones that are call it glad verts like fast hit you in and it's a nice feeling. Celebrate time celebration so you don't want to be able to really negative downfield. The hurt locker APP. I don't love it like I feel like it just putting a rainbow bandaid horrible things that you can't keep silencing something until it goes away lost my hex debt but it's usually to shut up around baby face beat Yes absolutely you have to take everything with a pinch of salt coming from a bank. I mean it would be much nicer. Eight guys into the whole. And this is a big compensation for the for the last five to six years that we've been having in the community about corporate sponsorship. We're going to go where we are going to go there but I look. My opinion is as I've said many times for the people before us when Sydney night is when they were rounded up and their names are printed in the Sydney Morning Herald and they were arrested and locked up. They got fired from their jobs for being a part of Monica so for some organizations. I think it's kind of fucking amazing that they're putting their name and their money towards supporting this thing happening. This this whole festival would not have been but especially tomorrow night would not happen if there was not corporate sponsorship. I don't know the specifics of how money runs. I know people that work on the Melbourne Pride Parade which is tiny compared to the parade but the only funding they get from the government entirely goes on just closing the Straits of everything else. That they pay for has to be done from From corporate sponsors now having said that we need to look at who way taking corporate sponsorship from and if it is a one of the big banks that is contributing to detention centers or is donating money right wing fossil fuels or right wing. Political parties annoyed should not be allowed to give their money having said that. I said I don't think should be allowed to be putting their money towards campaigns or put their labels on on mighty. Yeah but I do think it's great that they do run an internal thing they're quote they're pride network which is an typing a lot of big organizations and I think regardless of how evil the company is. It's not even about visibility is making sure that staff feel good and then there's also other commercial campaign so there was the bones campaign that came out about making money like it's about making money but there is a side part to it which is that we are inquiry people that aren't the traditional underwear model. We've got some bears in there. We've got trans. People who who do not see the bodies like their own in underwear campaigns. There's a lot of buddies out in the Ot community so four people have the community to be able to say these billboards and they social media campaigns of people in in Andy's selling underwear kind of also K. With that as well yeah. It's a tricky one because I was talking to someone the other night about sort of sponsorship and D- do you guys remember when seven eleven was selling let gays sandwiches and she a bad stuff and Smith's has like rainbow chips. You can. Oh you can buy like pride flare rainbows. Anything smell like ammo is. Yeah I mean they cool if we had like a really like gay bank. We could like just like Queens. Okay cards and it'd be if you'll funding fossil fuels and Liberal Party members discriminate against us. You can't sponsor I'm sorry to say Yeah I don't take okay especially I'm sorry I already did. You see the a few years ago. Mardi Gras are actually declined to respond to ship in a partnership with sex bar. Because they didn't want to tarnish the family friendly brand and the over fetishes ation of the gay community and they thought that that was inappropriate but to take sponsorship from a from a and said I think you know we we have to hold certain decisions against and I think that's the job of the idea of having a Mardi gras and every other fast food exists. Your responsibility is to make sure that you are taking money from organizations alliance without absolutely. I just wanted to fit that in and I took place a couple of baboon so if anyone anyway. Topic is a bit of a lighter topic weirdly. I'm doing the sexy. Dopey tonight tonight. We're going to be talking about row. Play so we touched on the past on like pup play and leather play and domination and subs but yeah like we Ramos. Yes you had that story I feel like you have a lot of stories that kind of buy off shore based but yeah like role plays like a big thing in a career community. It's a big thing in six. I mean I kind of always thought if it is it's kind of like a couples like last resort fixing relationship like in the movies and stuff and it's like this is like one last chance but yeah it's not actually always about like sexy maid outfit so like firemen and stuff like that is. It's happening but there are many aspects of role play in our lives as people not always actually but a lot sexually but I mean like honestly like we. We grow up playing a role whole life like we're playing the role of straight like like pretending to be straight in front of these people throw yet. Yeah running row. I never really got into row play where we were sort of doing characters. I've never dated anyone. That was a good actor. Yeah I've been in by day. Should be like fucking like data background. Are you fucking kidding me like a doctor? I'm GonNa give you fucking Dr Quinn I yes. He's GonNa comment on how that was an old people wherever you clearly have not saint plays like me but yeah. I do the traditional version of Of of what I perceive is his role. Play of like. Oh I'm going to be a dirtiness. Yeah and I'M GONNA BE Home Saturday. And then the other guys in the Rim of whatever you're wearing the outfits I asked you to wear rope. Oh Jesus Christ is up here. I'd just have to call my tally mission anyway. Sorry yeah when you feel like Baggy. I feel like if I had to like. Be a doctor in a sexy way. I'd be like forget. Oh the good parts like have you vitamin D just like how are you getting enough water? I just saw you talking about six mice. Thank you scheme going into I. I love row play row blaze final fantasy. Seven fucking lab. Actually being a Gamer like role plays I do a lot of ro play like sexual rope later. I have to be really careful about it because as soon as I put on a costume. There's a very fine line between thirteen year. Old Boy with this buddy or like something sexy like root capital Butler choices. You're right like I'm constantly role. Playing is like a functioning member of society are you. Are you know very well of milk very well? I'm one of the bad actors at thome state But I remember once. Yes Liz ride. Our relationship was failing and it was a last ditch attempt to save or an ex decided to do some role play. And I'M GONNA get some high cost. You don't be fooled costumers like I'm fixing I'm fixing the gutter. Yeah Okay Yeah. But he's just Oscar. It had to be done anyway. Yeah I'm GonNa fix the Gutter and it was spot you in the bedroom. We're going to do a little bit of dialogue and whatever and yeah but it. All went wrong very very quickly. Because when you're doing role play it's sort of a amps up the rose that you're playing into dominance and sub and so people sort of take sex a little bit further. I feel when you're doing my. Oh Oh you're wearing hype is I highly recommend Trade but I was also a sub sub trading and exits. I'm just went a bit hard. And so I was in my Biz. And he was fucking. My face was hanging a second. I just for the rest of the story. I just saw Thomas a hit of ammo. Onstage share around. How are we going to get arrested for this? No I'm no I'm not for this. I will not go to jail visuals on this show. It's like nerd bringing no God's goodness dump P. Pressure audience members in thanking Amel. Okay sorry we just have to wait while the front or gets a hit Get Johann head are GONNA love you? Sorry while you're up. I heard this didn't want us to quality guys. This guy is situation down. We've actually had a few noise complaints. Oh that gag was seven dollars so I just carrying a safeway bag all our secrets. That's put on a policeman's hat. So what are we talking about me going home with Tim out players? Oh God no no to find a fancy seven. Oh so what happens in the first disc. I don't know if you guys have no so I was like it was fucking my face back to fucking face. It was going to hot and usually I'm okay with it but it hit that spot right at the back and I threw up a do it as most of you know. I have a lot of experience with throwing up so I coordinate in my mouth. 'cause I know when I know how my body works. Don't Shame Me Cup date though and I soon had addictive and so what we discovered on that faithful. Robot is is who's really good to fuck no get out. I don't want a law. That don't WanNa do this with you anymore. Do not same guys give it a fucking Dr. Why do we do this at so anyway? Row Pay everybody. It was the most successful blow job I've ever given twice. Okay moving along and so my stuffed yourself. Didn't you what my ex came in my mouth. And then I suddenly realized I had a mouthful of vomit and Tom Delicious. I'm sorry sorry to my people who are here to take. Mikey you're not finished. Come on it gets worse. Or how did that worse? It doesn't have any way to like spit. It and I didn't want to recognise nice. Subsoil open the window and spat it out and my neighbors were looking at me right across the window over the fence. Like Mr Wilson Potter Patriotic Episode Producer. Memories charge me all of that. Little of the lesson is don't date Luke which you all to know already. So it's it's really good time. I think just to actually try and talk about the topic that we're supposed to talk about. I'm sorry how we up giving People Amel thank you. I'm trying to support finding sport. I'm trying to I'm trying to breathe. I fell comfort anything. I think I genuinely sorry to be serious for half a second That there is a lot of play in guy and I can. I speak on behalf of gay men because I am game but I probably seem a lot of people in the spectrum. Use role play is a DECI- of working out who they are and that's being played some straight six. After I realized I wasn't attracted to women anymore but still with it anyway and then even when I was first having six minutes pretending like what the fuck oh is doing and I was like. Oh it's sort of an element of role play. I always say I don't know if I talked about talked about the deady. The Guy that called me daddy center at the lives nor my soul. I showed it was not recorded that thank God this evening. I was dating this guy few months ago and he was really into calling me daddy and I was really into fucking him so let them do it and then I cut it off because the night before father's day he stayed over in the morning I wake up and he wrote and he's like violence day. Daddy you no. You'd be a terrible knife. Five looks like George Costanza from Seinfeld and the thought anyway to be on just a it was announced. I fucking love. Someone is working at the AIRBNB tonight. I was like well. I'm at bodyline. So you guys work at your accommodation you but there's an element. I feel when I go to a social situation. I'm very chatty. Let me know about you. Tell you about myself and whatever but when I'm in a solar I sort of put on these like talk God hard being the fuck going. I think that's an element of role play. I think I think sex in the LGBTQ A. Plus Community Ducks Jonah. It's his labyrinth because we just better at it and we're more adventurous two. Yeah yeah switching it up with surgery. Yeah yes we've already questioned something that we were told. We were told that we were something. I mean question. Put Up questioning what. What sexy is and yeah? You're right actually. We have a Lotta these topics we were like. Why is this sex thing more reveling in the gay community? And why is this other sex thing more prevalent in the Gay Community? The thing is sex is just more prevalent have more obviously. We're going to have more fun still about like roleplaying if anyone wants to talk to me fun fantasy later. Oh my God. Great Young Girls Video Games. We're going to Adams in. The back is better to go a tonight. We actually have a amazing guests joining us. it's a tough act to follow that that section of the show there so we're joined by. Salton Jomo as Saudi men who fled his own country. And it's conservative stance on homosexuality and so it's a free life and found himself with Australia's detention system so it's been a really wild ride and I'm pleased. Welcome oaten to the sites. Thank you for being his saltzman now. Sultan you and your partner now call the strategy harm which is amazing and you guys are on your way to getting citizenship which is fantastic and unfortunately homosexuality remains illegal in Saudi Arabia and is punishable by death as well. So can you take us back to the beginning and what it was like being gay in Saudi Arabia? I arrived in Saudi. I was thirty years old so by that time. Better much better okay. Don't you recording this step? Sorry so I grew up in the states for the most part. You can probably hear my voice while my accent so Saudi. I was thirty years old. I had grown up in San Francisco so I was expected to be a difference But I've always been the kind of person that's always been a relationship so right when I got there. I found myself a boyfriend together for six months. That didn't work out very well And then I met my boyfriend. Who's actually over there and the other half of this so forty seven now and we met when I was thirty and he was nineteen. He chased me. He chased me your story so for me. I didn't really wasn't much of a gay lifestyle and Saudi Arabia. I mean I had the boyfriend and we would escape to Bahrain. We would escape to London to other countries. Well maybe I shouldn't use this Cape. Considering the final escape we used to run from Saudi and just kind of like go hit the bars in London and hit the buyers other places so we didn't really have much of a lifestyle. I mean there really isn't one in Saudi Arabia. I mean there's none of this silver lining to Saudi Arabia. So you guys have a tomo either know. In the beginning I was like a little black bottle right there and then I figured it out when you guys all got high but what was the other. I mean look. Saudi Arabia is very much separated. The men from the boys. That's very much in practice. We have the restaurants. A family section was like men and wives and children and then you have the men section. It's actually very easy to be gained Saudi Arabia because there is that separation of the I mean if I was trying to rent a hotel room with the woman I'd get totally arrested by upstairs but it's so much easier to rental real hotel room with with the guy because nobody asked questions you know they think your best friends and also with the separate best friends but also with the separation of the sexes. And you don't get schools so boys are always was boys in school and girls with girls in school so the boys tend to play with the boys and the girls tend to play with the girls but it all happens very very quietly. Nobody really talks about it. Everybody knows what's going on but nobody really talks about it And also our society is one where no one would dare call you. Gay or even ask you. Are You gay? People just assume that you know your best friends and they never see with women. Because you can't be with a woman in Saudi Arabia unless she's like your breath relatively getting example my partner. I just gotTa remember not to use his real name. We're all friends here right so I trust your. Hello if anybody's here from the Saudi will be recorded and released so this will be recorded and released online. I'm getting that just don't tweet Hashtag Saudi. Because then they're gonNA buy don't Hashtag Saudi no seriously place. We always have sanitized here so so the only fun times where like when we check into a hotel somewhere in Saudi Arabia because we traveled a lot is one of the acid. You single bed or you know. Do you want a single bad or do you want a couple of single beds and I just always felt like I should just be dangerous like no? We'll just have one big bed. Really good friend really. Saudi Arabia. People flu around boys play with the boys. Girls play with the girls. But then you get married and you know once you get married. You're expected to that lifestyle behind you. You know you're going to be wonderful husband to your wife and you're GonNa take care of your kids and you know you just kind of forget about all that stuff Well with me growing up in the US that just was not an option I mean my God before we having so much case. Excellent Grinder works over there by the way John. Does billy thing is. You're worried that the person you're meeting is he gonNA bring along five members of the religious police at which point you're going to end up on the chopping block. Catfish that's happened. We had. I have South African friend of ours. He's from South Africa and he was an English schoolteacher and he was in his thirties. And the guy had lived in Saudi for like five or six years and then He got on one of the APPS like grinder or one of those and he ended up hooking up with just nineteen year old Saudi student while the Saudi student happened to be working for the religious police and right when they got together to meet he ended up getting poundstone and the interest taken to jail. They took him back to his house. They went through computers. They went through his personal stuff. They found his collection of gay porn and they found videos he's charged with other Saudi young men and he ended up getting sentenced to two years in prison and two thousand lashes. You can imagine I mean it's sort of a partner but lashing. I mean it's just a horrible thing I mean you're trying to live your life. I mean you have sex in Slama country which is not the best divide years but I mean for him. It just completely changed the way that he was before he went in and the way that he was afterwards it was horrible experience for him so I mean I don't WanNa last time. Saudi Arabia executed. Somebody for just being gay I know. The last batch of executions day did was about thirty five to forty two people. I'm not exactly sure five of those were gay. But they weren't executed because they were gay. They executed for other stupid reasons but they just happen to be gay. So executions do continues to happen. Yes so so you understand why you I was going to say it is also often executions happening. Did Not Publicize on. May nine to everybody. And that's things quietly up until a few years ago. Public executions were done in public but Saudi Arabia stopped at a few years ago with the new crown prince that would new king and also the drive. Su Create a tourism industry in Saudi Arabia. Just can't be chopping people's heads out in public so that they stop doing that but unfortunately the executions do continue. I mean look. Executions are on the rise right now but they're also gonNA BE STARTED GOING DOWN. I'm hoping Saudi Arabia's really watching just doing now especially after the murder of journalist Jamal Shoji They're really trying to do what they can to improve their image. Got a long ways to go and you've been in a relationship with your partner sixteen sixty years. That's time you keep something like that a secret. Well his thought I was just his best friend. That's not for sixteen years his mom just all your best friends and Kath Day nine Dutch see. We'll carry his mom really was Was just amazing but one thing I I hate to say this but one thing that was able to lettuce continue is that my my partner decided keep saying that one his real name but one day you'll be able to going to be fine but at the moment girth probably saved up yours but not unroll this His mom his dad passed away a long long time ago. in Saudi society is very Patriarchal Patriarchal Society The data's incharge with his dad passed away so long ago. When he was two years old his mom became the bus but because of the Saudi guardianship system The oldest son then becomes the boss if his father's no longer around so a lot of his mother's freed them dependent on him from he was two years old. His mother wants to go to the hospital. His mother wants to do certain things. She's got to get his permission so in a way he had this thing going with. His mom were granted full freedom and he's granted freedom to do what he wants to do. They never talked about being gay or anything at all but there was just this unspoken understanding you know. Let you do what you WANNA do. And you let me do what I wanted to do. And we'll just all get along but for the first two Months of our relationship you still in the University Helix First Year of college. He used to come over and tell his mom. Oh I'm just going to be spending the night with my friends wouldn't be studying and then that's a good one so to really like studying for a long time all weekend. A few days came into became becoming a week over my place and then you know mom would get pissed off. And he's like come back home for a while but I remember there was something I was going to say about the separation of the sexes. Let's just go back to that His brother just got married three years ago and he's got now two boys right. Yeah he just had another baby recently. He's never met his brother's wife he's not allowed to. He's never seen her in fact. I don't think even started the wedding. That's another thing. The weddings are separated. The weddings are separated. There's winning separated. There's a like a convention room for the men another one for the women. Actually if you don't see the women's side yeah that's the I guess the father of the groom and father of the bride. They needs you know but you never meet the opposite sex now. Saudi Arabia's also notoriously harsh on journalists as well You were interrogated about your job and they also use your relationship to sort of bribe. You read about questions. You're asked that involve things like have any gyms use you in the house? How many bids in the house which he lied about the answer to and then they stormed the house. Is that correct? Well no sir. I don't WanNA listen to Monsieur onces. Sorry so if we could bring it up. It's really amazing what you're saying. I want everyone to be able to Sorry a few months prior to the actual interrogation I was called to a prison on the outskirts of Riyadh the capital city. And that's the that's the scary prison. That's where you hear. All the political arrests are. That's where all those people other people that have been victimized. The problem we had is that I was working TV producer with a bunch of major networks Rico. Cnn and the BBC different. All right. I can actually hear myself. I mean if it was addicted be much easier. He's doing all right. You're doing all I WANNA do it. Every time we have a guest say just imagine it's a penis get it in like two seconds. I like they were moving now so I was working with the with all the the major TV hours like CNN BBC. And all those guys and then Canadian Television came to Saudi and they want us to do segment and all the changes and the empowerment of women and all that and I was like all right. Let's do it so I work in the government. Im a visa to come for their producers reporters and then suddenly she started working on human rights issues which is fine. I mean that's what reporters do. I mean. She was doing her job but I explained to her that you know if he started doing human rights interviews here in the Kingdom. I guarantee you're being watched from the time you arrive at the airport to the time you get back on your on your flight so if be careful who you meet do not do any human human rights interviews here in Saudi Arabia because those people I guarantee you argon get arrested. While she didn't listen to me she went to another city. She went and did some interviews with a couple of we call them dissidents but they're just outspoken. People got one difference in Saudi Arabia. So she did those interviews and then I didn't know about him and she left the country and then a few months later this is about may or June of two thousand eighteen which he recorded aired and then Saudi Arabia started doing an investigation about. How did this happen? How did this woman come in? Do these interviews inside the country. Who gave her the visa me which points? I was called into prison on the outskirts of Riyadh the secret police or the presidency of security. They called me on Thursday and they told me come. We need to talk to you about just come on Sunday. We want to talk to you so I went on Sunday. I arrived at the prison and started asking you a bunch of questions. I'll skip a lot of details because otherwise no one's going to get any tonight because we'll just go on for hours so anyways I'll cut out the details but what ended up happening is we got too scary part of the interrogation which was tell us about your life. Who Do you live with like? I live with my friend. And he's like. How long have you been living with your friend? Fifteen sixteen years. Are you married? No I'm not married? Do you have any kids? No I have no kids. Is Your friend married? No He's married and hotel old is he. Now he's thirty six forty seven Interesting you guys live together for fifteen sixteen years. I guess it's like how many bedrooms do you have in your house. Well we had a three bedroom house three. Like how many beds do you have in the house? Of course we only had one bed. I don't know we have three beds. He's like look. This obviously is going on and you guys are having a secret relationship now. Of course I didn't comment and he said you know some secrets don't have to turn main secrets. Like what are you talking about? We deeming? He's like just think some secrets don't have to remain secrets. And at that point I realized that you know before. Like what would you guys want? Would you guys why they're like? We need to stop working with foreign media. I was getting blamed for a lot of bad news coming out of Saudi Arabia. So they said salt working with foreign media. Go on with your life so let me go at the end. I spent about four hours there. That interrogation my boyfriend's win outside in the parking lot for the whole time at the end they let me go and I need to stop working with the foreign media. Few months go by and then I ended up getting stuck for money. I mean I had to work in foreign media and journalism was all that I knew in Saudi Arabia. It'd be doing her longtime almost ten years so when they decided that I couldn't work with the foreign media anymore they started screwing with me and my job as well where I lost. My job ended up. Becoming pretty destitute ended a on depending on him. All the time Which role play happy Father's Day? So you know I. I stayed working not working for a few months and then I started producing films for vice documentaries. They contract with mutual films for them. They're all great things about coffee. In camels. The camel festival nothing to do with politics human rights or anything at all and we were great with that but then Middle August of two thousand nineteen seventy. We got his mom suddenly turned against me. She's she started saying. I want you to see him. You know we've got some information that your Relationship is not one that would please allow or God and she said that he should leave me alone get away from me and he refused he said No. I'm not going to which point his mom got his brother involved and his brother Called last week of August and he said we need to stop seeing each other because now the try his family's AH TRIBE. I mean they're huge and they're very conservative people so at that point his brother said. If you don't stop seeing me they're GONNA get reporters to tore his or his family GonNa try to kill me. We didn't take you seriously either. Let's see what happens. Well on September I got a phone call from the Criminal Investigation Division of the Ministry in Saudi and we were living in. Riyadh at the time they called me on this Thursday. They wanted to see me on Sunday again. All right we've been through this before I can handle this no problem but then a couple of hours later he gets a phone call and he doesn't work with the foreign media and he's also asked to come into the police station a couple of hours after me so we at that time decided that his family had reported at us. If we showed up at the police station. They're going to separate US forcefully. I don't know what they would do to me. Maybe hand me over to his family for them to have their way with me. I mean and there might have been having my way with their son for sixteen years so I mean I don't get macaques ethics thin so we decided it's time to run We really really really just literally. We got the call. September fifth that night. We started panicking. We had a discussion like do we break up. Do we separate we each go away really make a run for it and it was an easy decision. We make a run for it so leaving everything behind like family members your career your home country. You were fleeing. Yeah everything everything emotional when I talk about this third tissue gay. Somebody's gotTa have a tissue. Not My notes so you take a second second. That's fine so we had to make that decision overnight and it was like all right would we do we have one problem is that we had thirty five kilogram. German shepherd so so that was our. Icu was a white German shepherd. She's still there. So we have to get the dog situated. We had to get all our papers quickly. Our passports his university degrees everything just within twenty four hours. We packed up the car we drive. You couldn't fly because if the government saw that we got on a flight to another city from the city. They wanted to interrogate us on on Sunday. Debbie after US did banners from traveling immediately so we packed up our stuff. We drove nine hours to to Jeddah. We drop off the dog at a good friends place. Um and then we book the first flight. We could out of out of Saudi which was to Cairo country where we don't need a visa so we flew to Egypt Cairo. We stayed there for about a month and a half applied for Canadian visas. They wouldn't give US tourist visas to counter simply because he didn't have much of a travel history in his new sport so then we were stuck in Cairo and stuff so we applied for Australia simply because he said Australia. They speak English whether it's great and he actually. He actually went to Australian film school but they had a branch in Saudi. So we decided okay. We're going to come to Australia. Keep in mind. You're fleeing from being. Falsely persecuted for fleeing from being separated were fleeing for our lives and then we got instant visas. Australia if you WANNA know. Wildest Saudis are running Australia because Australia's gives us all instant visas. So God bless you guys for that butts but what they don't tell you. Is that if you arrive in Australia. Even with a valid visa which is what we tourist visas and we wanted to apply for asylum. They'RE GONNA cancel your visas and making it illegal. And that's exactly what they did when we arrived in Sydney where about twenty years away from from the from Sydney from the actual gate. I don't have you guys seen border force that TV show. Fuck yes. I used to love that. Show Graciosa until you actually arrive in that situation and your that your air force. Yeah like they stopped us at customs we we cleared immigration. We had her passport stamped. And then we get to customs and they pulled aside and I was like. Oh how exciting. We're going to be on border for little to no literally. Did I know that they were GonNa Counselor? Visas taken for interrogation separately. Throw us in a holding cell and then you had these huge guys like rugby player size with tattoos my own. We would have been evacuated as you guys have done you face. Yeah not. We ended up getting handcuffed in a not funny not a fun way not a role play way not poppers either so this the hottest visions so next thing. I knew they got us in this barren and they took us. This place called the Villawood immigration detention center. Villawood believe it or not. It's not a bad place. It seems like a college campus. I mean when we saw detention center and this was it. I mean we would be happy to rent a place here for a few days. I mean it really. We were initially because they put us in this unit called the airport unit where they just twenty four hour turnaround so nice. It was like a little apartment little kitchenette and a TV and like six rooms. But we're the only ones in that apartment there was like this isn't bad. Netflix account can have the circle. No they took away our laptops bastards. Oh No AMMO. No I talked to you. We're GONNA have to have sex after sixteen years and there's there's as long as it didn't have stab tops. That's fine before us to watch these things that we have called torture in which is co plays like me so so the plea actually the the place itself is not bad. Okay but what makes it bad is that they take their asylum. Seekers in the refugees like never committed a crime. At least not one that we've been called for never committed a crime. Never been in a horrible jail situation. So we've kind of like jail virgins and then suddenly everyone says. Joe Version at some point. But they don't leave that way. Luke has left the room. You've been to jail so this bracelet isn't for aesthetic purposes so the actual facilities bad but what makes it bad is that they have people that have our foreign nationals. That had visas in Australia. Arthur ALLOWED OUT INTO SOCIETY. Had committed some kind of got to keep this in my face. They've committed some kind of crime that been sentenced to at least twelve months for in Australia in prison. So those guys are now out of prison. Some observed year years twelve months for a variety of different crimes from drug dealing to rape to murder. We're in there with murderers so those people are all mixed in with the with asylum seekers and refugees and for us to be in that search in that atmosphere was quite intimidating. I mean just from the first day I had a big Samoan Guy. He's going to kill you just because I was assigned to be in the same room as him. They didn't assign us to the same broom initially at least not until they found out we were journalists and then everything changed and for us to couple of Saudi guys. Just arriving in Australia I was like horrific. It was scary crystal meth. There's so much crystal meth in Australian detention video stories. This blows my like in these detention centers that we you know astray Leah right wing. Australia's like we're going to be so careful that we've got a pink. Cape people nowadays awful places that have you know sometimes islands or have fencing all around them with Bob. Wire around it and so we're going to be so complicated but obviously this gods and bringing she'd into into these centers to care you probably say who's doing it but let me. I can't remember the names of the guards but I remember I remember. He had a hospital visit and He went to the hospital for something and he had two guards that were with him in the elevator and one of the guards opened up his back to get something out of it and just to smell of great cannabis just came out of that bag he was telling me it must be good stuff but The guards who get in but also the other way that it gets in Australia are very particular about their pat search laws so they can't really touch down here. They can't really do anything there. So visitors coming to the detention centers did actually put the drugs. They're you'd actually put a lot of drugs in their. Apparently referring says quote for the people listening. Yeah exactly yes now. Speaking of the gods some point one of the gods sits in the nine years that he'd worked there. Yeah he'd never had a gay couple before the forgot. Make you feel more comfortable less comfortable. Well when he told me that by that stage had been on the project a couple of times. Our case had already been in the media. Y- A lot so by the time. He told me that we had to twenty four hour guards on us with us because they did something stupid in the beginning When I first started doing the media interviews all by phone not in person I started talking about the drugs that were in Villawood and of course that upset the drug dealers. The guards and I was stupid. I don't ever been to prison before so it was just apparently. You're not supposed to be talking about those things especially when you say in prison rookie prison. Yeah Rookie prison mistake. They actually ended up having guards on us. Twenty four hours so anytime we would meet. I have to walk around. It'd be some be three meters away from us. Every night. They would walk into her door. Open door check out. We're okay which is kind of a pain in the ass if you're trying to have sex in the middle of the night but the asset side. That was really fucking awful. Yeah we'll cut. That was causing Christly Jerk Ben and by. Oh they didn't like out too bad. Did you find the being journalist and having that experience helped you sort of get on the project and get some visibility because it sounds hectic? Oh absolutely like fully hectic that you were in the The villawood detention centre. Thing about it when you mix up refugees and asylum seekers eventually those refugees asylum seekers are going to end up. Getting bridging visas that out into society but some bridging visa that they do not allow them to work now in there. If you make friends in Villawood you're making friends with drug dealers. You're making friends with people that have had violent crime. You might start using drugs if you get desperate enough. So you're getting people that are pretty clean. Cut Never had prison. Experience never really used drugs. Put them in a desperate situation. Many people end up using drugs or at least making the connections that once. You're outside if you're not able to work you're going to be getting in touch with somebody at Villawood. Hey I can't get a job. What can I do well? Hey start selling crystal meth. You know and this is a bad thing so you shouldn't mixture. Jeez asylum seekers people who are freshly arriving here with other people that are Chris dealers survivor work. Yeah exactly you do. Survivor work so to get to the journalism yesterday. I mean. I've got numerous influential media personalities that have worked with in Saudi Arabia. I didn't WANNA be in the media. I didn't I never imagine it'd be sitting here in front of everybody and talking. We just wanted run away from Saudi Arabia. Maybe not even be known where we are in the country and just do it quietly and just blend into society change our names and just let it be but after spending about thirty days in in Villawood we'd had enough and we said all right now. It's time to actually start asking for help. So we were able to our lawyer. Allison Madison if anybody. Here's refugee or silent seeker alright. Somebody knows Allison Elson Alison Patterson's just. He was amazing and human rights for all take took on our case immediately and they were just. The whole team was just amazing really would still be available if it wasn't for them so definitely. The journalism helped a lot. We had written about in your times. We were in Time magazine. Sydney Morning Herald's yeah. Everybody was on the project twice without my face and then one time I showed my face because I promised my would if they helped us and they did so. I showed my face but if it wasn't for all the media attention we got we would not be out now if it wasn't for Ellison Madison. We wouldn't be out now. Just keep something in mind. Not everybody that arrives in Australia. Speaks English like this. Some don't speak any English. I have media friends that were able to get in touch with Allison also to conor Casey immediately but a lot of people don't have allison a lot of people don't have media. A lot of people don't speak English and those guys are lawsuit in your immigration system. There are guys that have been. There's one guy. He arrived in Australia when he was twenty years. Old Heading to New Zealand would stop over in Melbourne. He got stopped in Melbourne. He's been in detention for ten years. Imagine your twenty s your insulin. He's telling immigration until now he's still in detention his entire twenty were spent in Villawood unbelievable. Yeah so definitely. The fact that we were. Journalists gives us protection from the beginning. The guards were very careful how they handled us. We're very well taken care of as far as securitywise after we let it be known that we were journalists. Another difference it made. I can't imagine talking about this right now but I'll talk about a really quick. Is that when we came from Saudi Arabia? We didn't know that we had to TB. I had been covering the covering the hush pilgrimage which brings about three million people in two thousand square kilometer area. So there's a lot of people from certain countries from all over the world ended up catching TB. So I ended up staying in hospital for about forty seven days until there was no longer infectious. We will put into the hospital. Which is fourth six thousand dollars? A day was four thousand dollars. How long forty seven days. Forty seven days the whiteboard. Above your bed where you're keeping track of how much a lot of it was it. It was quite a strike. That image I think was quite a striking seeing of here. Is someone that clearly does not need to be held in detention. This is just some of those escaping persecution. And he is the telly that. They've camped about their bed of how much the tax payers paying. And it's a really good point. Why the fuck you spend money? Okay I was in the hospital for forty. My partner was in hospital for seventeen days. I was in the hospital for seven days because it was Liverpool Hospital. I had three guards outside my door to make sure I didn't escape. Three guards outside his door. There are more guards in that war than there were nurses and they were actually getting in the nurses ways now when you tell you four thousand dollars a night per bed and it's two beds not one. It was two. That's eight thousand dollars a day and then there's the guards in the medication and the nurses and the transportation and all that it was just so much but the doctors were really really very very kind to us that Liverpool hospital because his TB ended after seventeen days mine was a lot more severe. The doctors actually let him stay an extra sixty days in the hospital on necessarily just because they didn't want to separate us which was just amazing so very grateful to that but eventually he had to go and I was stuck in hospital for thirty days and I'm really grateful to Australia and Australian people industrial government actually helping curious of this because it could've killed this eventually probably within five years but you gotta keep something in mind and point part of the reason. I put that board above my bed. That tally of how much it was costing was because being hospital sucks. Okay especially when you're I wasn't especially when you're not bedridden. I mean I was healthy. I didn't have any signs or symptoms of TB or anything like that none of it and when you're in a hospital but you got three guards outside your room and you're not allowed out of that room thirty days. It wasn't any kind of health concern or anything it was just the guards and the Abe not wanting to let me out of the room. He wasn't allowed to come and visit until I appeared on the project. Chill the project got involved. Which point day started to allow him to come and visit me in the hospital Three times a week. There are people have relatives children who die while they're in custody and they don't let them out to go visit or go to the funeral. Because of the media attention and all sorts of gays the gay community was so instrumental in getting us out all the attention that was thrust everywhere on social media all the support that we got put pressure on the government to let my partner coming to visit me three times a week I started being allowed out of that hospital room. I was in for an hour a day. There were let go out in the garden and under guard still but I mean. Look now that it's that that she did that. God awful journeys is over. I mean I started a fulltime job on Monday. Good so I I fucking tweets person but we have to cut you off now. I guess I think what we need to do. We we need to competent. We probably do a full episode with you because I want to talk about. There's also there's also this much we haven't covered in your story. There's some wonderful stuff online. If you want a little bit more overweight but I do think we need to have a proper just full episode even with that US. Just you know the other thing ache you the other thing that I really WanNa say to you did this. Is Your First Mardi Gras tomorrow. We'll do the parade of your first Missouri and this is a festival that is about love. This is a festival tyler but everybody loved the person that I love and I don't think I've ever heard a story that is more about love than Youtube. I mean you could have gotten rid of each other and just leave a closet life in Utah been through so much fucking shit together. We have I want you won't you? I know you've got I know you. Have you still have contact with people back but not a lot of people you've had to cut contact? Every single person on Oxford Street is your logical family now and loves you and you are part of this Sydney. Thank you how badly Christ's come in. You are thank you. You know that means so much because we did have to leave our families overnight and Jesse be adopted by a bunch of thank you thank you thank you so much. I think that's it. That's it Mike. Thank you thank you. Thank you very much coming in. I am thank you so much. For your ongoing. It really does mean a lot to all of us. Thank you to our patrons. If he wanted to support our live shows you can sign up at Patriot or calm. Gaze revolting cod. Hey Sean Dot com slash gays voting? Tomorrow have a fucking amazing Mighty Greib. Good fucking time and hopefully We'll still be doing this next year. We will next year. Yeah Hey that's good fucked up by by playing Jolly Xia.

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Ep 157 | How Gender Identity Is Hurting Our Kids

The Chad Prather Show

44:11 min | 1 year ago

Ep 157 | How Gender Identity Is Hurting Our Kids

"Yeah it is party time. Mom Mom. Welcome to another episode of the Chad. Pray Thir- show. Do this episode brought to you by Genesis nine fifty attack pack. We'll talk about them and just a little bit. Of of course. We are in the mother ship which is Studio Twenty. Two puppet master marks driving at the helm hanging out over there lukens Felton sue off and de Boehner and No not no not. You're not deboned yet. Okay Debonair. He bought her. I don't know I don't know how they say it these days hesitation a D Boehner. And you you didn't know whether to put that microphone in front of your face or not bridge over there and grab that long cylindrical object. Then we're off to the racist. Stay Horned Candy. See the Queen Queen of the. Let me ask you an honest question when I start going off on a tangent and saying things do I do I make you nervous a little bit. There's always a tinge of me not knowing what the future has in store. Yeah that's a little scary but I mean I I've gone off the rails somewhat the beauty of it is you have the power of the edit button like you can copy and cut and paste and if you need to take some that you can't but because you you have editorial power you're right. You are the editorial dictator of the Chad breath or show you can determine like you can take. I've seen edits and I'm like Oh this girl all right here what she just did. Oh Yeah Yeah. There's a lot that the viewers do not see. And there's some nifty editing tricks that I have to editing. I need you to give. May I want you to cut me a little Thirty seconds when I was talking about my little trump wallet here happy. I need that I want to send it over to the folks over at proper gentleman. Yeah we'RE GONNA talk about sex ex- today 'cause that's what we do when the time comes and and if you've ever seen a black man blush well today is an opportunity. 'cause Kedah Kevin Wade sitting here. Speaking of my among loves Kevin Way. She's always comment on your stuff. owns the social media. And she's just send you the messages Shukri uh-huh Wonderful woman a really really nice lady. She's a good person party. Foul Steve Party. Fouls Steve's mom and my mom started communicating via facebook and. That makes me nervous. I'm sure they're doing weekly phone calls but now business mom forty six years old. Old Kidding. Don't do it I need it a native need. The prayers need the prayers. Otherwise I might I might get weird like the rest of the planet gotten weird. Everybody wants to be transgender these days. That's a major thing i. What is the population like percentage wise? What's the population of of transgender people? People in America. What like one percent? Maybe if they all get together and breed I know how many offspring they'll have. Well I mean the same as two gay guys. I mean they're not gonNa have any offspring unless something's Donna got to adopt. I mean this is just pure biology and by the way for those of you wanting to get triggered and those out there just looking to do it. Biology is not bigotry. Cancer percentage so according to a this is a little while ago but two thousand Sixteen Williams Institute Research showed zero point six percent of US adults identify as transgender. This gender so two thousand sixteen identify but it dominates culture these days in a big way. There's there's there's IT dominates hominid. Have you noticed this like everything is conversation about. A man is going to have a baby or and what they mean by that is. It's a person who biologically was a female email but now identifies as a man. I just can't get my head wrapped around this whole idea of you. Used to be something and and now it's a hate crime or hateful or bigotry. If I don't call you according to 'cause if because like I've seen some pats in the world that I don't know if they're a man or a woman and I treat them accordingly. Yeah I don't know what to call you. There's there are people like that. Yeah and I I remember a couple of flight attendants who okay. Where do you go? which and a lot of the time? I'll just go by the uniform. Yeah Okay if they're wearing a male uniform okay I'm GONNA say he he's still can't tell. I mean at some of the male attendance wearing scarves. A lot of those long hair scarfs undressing. And you go okay. She's fun you'll laugh but the the real problem is if they didn't actually Lee change anything we're all they're doing is changing the word the They they're the still the same person they always were genetically exactly the same as they always were but now they've changed as the word okay and it's like okay. I'm I'm born male but I'M GONNA call myself a woman now well. All I've done is changed the word uh-huh and now it's an offense all of a sudden if you call me a man because I decided I'm I'm a woman and that's the part that I find disturbing is is there. They're making the language unreliable. You know you can't use the term male or female or or man or woman or because all all of a sudden they don't mean what you intend when you say them is it. Destruction of language and language is an important thing. If you don't understand society is built on language which I mean that. That's one of the reasons why you go back to the old story in the Bible about them building the Tower of Babel and they were building a spire to having a tower to him and and right and God confused their languages and thereby confused them. You start confusing languages. A good parable in that you start getting languages confused and you really start to confuse as culture and society and so much. I can remember having a sociology teacher at the University of Georgia who kind of off the cuff Said one day in a lecture that we discovered in our evolution we discovered language by accident. Draw it was an interesting way of putting that there is a belief system behind that statement that that I was not comfortable with. I don't believe that we evolved to the point of discovering by accident language. I believe that language is a gift from God and and that is my worldview behind that statement and now none of us sitting in this room are experts on transgenderism but also so. There's no one in this room. That really cares. I mean we but just again it comes back to whether it's transgenderism or homosexuality or war ever is you choose to be whatever it is you choose to be belief system politically gender wise. Whatever you WANNA do? That's fine but don't make me suffer because houses and I've I've seen people who've attacked others in public I've seen firsthand witnessed it somebody that got MIS gendered and all of a sudden it just turned into world war three over this person person. Getting Miss Gender. GimMe a break but the problem that I have this where I'm going with this work issue with you. Have these major companies out there. These these days who are pandering to this point six percent of the American population and we are literally giving them billions of dollars to continue the sphere of influence. That in my opinion is adding more and more confusion case in point apple. Got An apple phone right here. I like using apple products. You know I people can say what they WANNA say. Bye Blah Blah. I like is convenient. It helps my life there it is. It's a tool. I use it but apple introduced the new you gender-neutral emojis. They unveil three hundred ninety eight new designs on the latest Iowa update and so last week they released Lisa thing and according to Emoji pedia. I didn't know that was the thing. EMOJI PEDIA DOT ORG two hundred sixty five emoji have been redesigned. Reflect the mody who are not either male or female. Now that sounds y not I made just why not of course everybody should be included. And I don't have a problem with that I really don't but again the now you have the characters representing people with disabilities such as is the wheelchairs ones that walk with a cane. Those who have Here with the help of a device mechanical limbs at the point in time. Did you just start dreaming up to be like I need an Emoji. I need a cartoon. Character that identifies my status in life like my place in life I did. The one made it a little mean the other day about the blind emojis with the white guy leading us all the people of color behind and I might. Here's Joe Biden leading the twenty twenty candidates. You know they're all blind but you've got a big Joe White Joe Biden in the front. There's the used to to be stick figures. And they were they were genderless. Yeah and that was fine. But now all of a sudden they'VE GOT TO BE GENDER NEUTRAL AS OPPOSED TO GENDER LISTS THEY HAVE A gender. It's just we don't know always gendered Mon- stick figures. He did so I. I got in trouble in third grade aid for drawing a picture of a naked woman right. You know it's third grade and got caught doing it and She was not gender-neutral. All right this is not a gender her neutral thing. This was this for third third grader. This was some significantly anatomically correct artwork. Here we're a little boy fifth grade for me. What if it were yelling? Yeah so you do that and And and I don't I just don't understand this I get the dysphoric thing that that is John. Hopkins University defines that as a mental issue. it is a mental problem when a person is confused about who who they are inside of a biological body. Now that's not me. Don't hate on me. That's John Hopkins University again. I love everybody. I don't care but when it gets to a point where now now I have to. I mean don't start messing up my emojis. Life Imitates Art and go back thirty years ago. The where you saw the kind of stuff where men were having babies and stuff whereas at your grocery store checkout lines national enquirer in Other magazines like that. And that's where it started in it just Kinda so now. It's what I remember like okay not long ago there. Was this never moment telling that story. So you're you're right innocence and I get what you're trying to say. Here's what we do. Here's how culture proceeds many times. When I'm making this very simplistic we label something? We give it a label. Then we laugh at. It was funny because it's different right. We laugh at things that are different. When then we launder it all right and so then? Once it gets laundered it it gets kind of like whitewashed and accepted into society. And you don't even think about it as being taboo laughable anymore now it's offensive to laugh at it and and it and it gets to a point where it's so inculcated into the culture that we don't even label it anymore. So you know again my issue there is when you start taking years ago the JC Penney Catalog would come in and you had a section in there with women who were wearing bras awesome panties they were you know they were advertising their unmentionable and again the little teenage boys they would find it and they were like Oh look at this you know they they were being naughty and this was a JC penney catalog right now you got you have the maximum magazines that you have the stuff that's online so that to see something like that in even Victoria's secret cadillac. It's benign it's been it's been so laundered you don't even think about it as taboo anymore. They they literally put it in the mail to come uncensored to your home. Here's the catalogs. Boom there is back in the eighties. We would have thought. Oh Oh my God. Oh my Lord. What has on showed up laundered it? We don't think about it anymore. So what we have of is there is there is a it has nothing to do with your sexuality. This has nothing to do with your sexuality at all there there is a force at work in the world that is trying to destroy certain values trying to destroy if view will judeo-christian ethic that has been labeled puritanical. Its ancient people. Don't do that anymore. How dare you have old traditional values? We will cancel so culture. You we will crucify you. You can't say things like that. It's not an inclusivity. They say we WANNA be inclusive. Okay we want to include the people that we've eve labeled as as marginalized but those people out there in the majority you Christians you practicing folks out there in your faith as based lifestyle. We're not including you. You Geyser. Now we're pushing you out now. The marginalized minority is going to come in takeover everything there the center of attention and everybody else's marginalized and so now who's the persecuted people it's the Phil Robertson's of the world who literally get an interview. Have you read a scripture from the Bible that says you know this is what I believe in all of a sudden. You're out you're off the show Phil said you mean to tell me. That's all I had to do to get kicked off this thing at so the Bible verse. Yeah so in. If you don't think this is important. Get your head out of the sand because these are little ways you can and just just with emojis and little things like that. And I'm not overreacting. An EMOJI is at the end of the world. But these are little things that help you launder this culture in here. This is the stuff I've had a conversation and look got plenty of Asha and have to keep qualifying this. Because I really don't care what you think in terms of where I am. I know who I am. I know who my friends are. I know the People Blah care about the people I work with. I really don't care what you think of me I know. May you know. May Steve knows me can DC. God bless. You has to put up with me you you guys know where I'm coming from when I say this anybody. That's been following her watching this long enough. They know where I'm coming from. But let's face it. The Gay community is not a monogamous community especially amongst males sales. It's not the homosexual. Gay Community is not monogamous. It tends to not be. That's why there tends to be a lot more HIV. Listen I was with gay friends over the over the weekend and last weekend and they were talking about. I mean there's just take a pill we don't even worry about anymore. See why because something that you used to fear in front over that used to kill people now uh we just take a pill. We don't worry about it. Main partners one half right. Why because it's not a monogamous thing? And you know you know you know you know I'm telling you the truth now. I'm not putting anybody on the spot. Everybody has their professional lives. This is my opinion my opinion alone. Okay so welcome to the show gift. All right yeah I mean you're seeing ads on TV for it. And I'm not gonNA name but the whole process is called. Prep I believe and it's about Taking something that that protects you you so that you can continue to behave in a manner that yeah ten years earlier would've been a death sentence And that's wrong. A lot of the problems. I think we have our people. We have a natural tendency to look for where our limits are it starts from childhood and you know as a parent you give your child limits. Okay you can go this far no further and then they get older. Okay now you can go this far and no further you know. You're you have to be in before the streetlights come on When we grew up that was that was the deal and now it's okay now you're a bit older okay home by ten PM home by midnight? Okay it's not a school night So you can get home by midnight right but these are all limits that we put on ourselves on our children and there are natural limits that are on us but we always chafe against against limits. We we hate them and we always look for a way around them and there are certain limits that are not necessarily a bad thing. And that's part of the problem. We're running up against limits. We're trying to get past limits that rarely we probably shouldn't be trying to get passed. Yeah well look at it like this look into physical body. Your body is not designed I to survive an impact but that's faster than the speed of run What do we do we get motorcycles? We go you know we do all these crazy. Things were daredevils and then we take things for granted managed by them. What happens? Is You wind up smear over the pavement somewhere because you did not obey the limits there were limitations that were there. There's a fence. There's a fence there. Air In and we look at we look at the fence as being. Oh we gotta get side of the fence when really and truly life is about getting more towards the center. Let's let's get towards the center where there's more freedom. I don't WanNa ride the fence line. And it's a pretty broad fence. It's a pretty lush green pastures inside here and when you get outside of their in anybody live long enough knows when you get outside those limitations and that's what we're doing we're making. We're making sexuality almost a disease. We're we're making sex a disease where everything has to have this label and for instance. Mike DOT COM Tom. Mac Dot Com. Has They have a term scoliosis sexuality the sexual orientation that recognizes gender a spectrum. So what does that mean now. Sexuality is like autism. Is I mean is that it's a spectrum so the point in this it's an identity density. Listen this I want you to. I want you to get this. You got so you gotta stay informed about these nuanced descriptors of gender expression. which is what you were referring going to and sexual orientation? So here's the thing. scoliosis means different things to different people. Here refers one one most silently it refers to someone who's attracted to non binary individuals those who don't identify as only only male or female. Okay so again now. You have these. We're back to the EMOJIS. This is something I'm attracted to and I have a friend who has a daughter has a biological female daughter who identifies as a son. They've been dealing with that he she has had been dealing with it. And what's funny. Is this biological female. That identifies as a male will date biological males that identifies a female. They see where I'm going with this thing it gets quirky and then you have to walk on eggshells to make sure that you pronoun these people properly now that sign up for this this craziness. I'm a dude. I'm a stupid dude. I'm a dude that puts out all the time. Also make Steve Wrong turns they they can procreate. So that's the thing so this article goes on to say it's a way to express the Scoglio sexuality issue -ality they're attracted to anyone who isn't sis gender of course as gender means US right. Yeah you identify with your biology. I mean I. I didn't know that I didn't know there were options growing up. That's the problem we're giving people to dom so it's often used to describe an attraction to trans men and women a scoliosis Scoglio sexual could be attracted to someone with no binary gender affiliation or with a gender identity. That is different from the one they were aside. Uh Find who assigned it if we're just products of time and slime and evolution. Then why should there be any gender at all someone assigned it to you who your parents know. uh-huh biology did who assigned the biology. God did your product of creation No I'm not I don't believe in God. No you don't want to give an account to anybody and therefore oh you've chosen a lifestyle whereby you don't have to do that anymore because you wanna life without limitations but let me tell you something you got limitations. Men have a penis. You can't have a baby. You biologically cannot not have a baby. That's limitations the limit. Yep we run up against the limit and we're trying to find a way around it and it turns out that's going to be a hard one to get around the whole deal. That's the whole deal all right. I'm not done pissing people off. I'm not done but you guys know my favorite thing these days is the genesis nine fifty. I love it. Don't replace the carpets because you peed on garbage. Don't do don't get the new carpet you got older. You got all this stuff you gotta get the Genesis Nine five zero genesis nine fifty at a little water you take. You can take a gallon of genesis. Nine fifty is going to make up a seven gallons of cleaner at the water's going to break down. The stains is going to get rid of the odor's they're going to be gone for good. Is Antibacterial bacterial is going to get rid of everything. In the carpet all the way down to the padding you can use it in the machines. It's green you don't have to worry about your family or your pets having anything thing. That's not safe in the house. And if you've got old stains just use a bigger ratio put more cleaner in their bigger odors. Same deal so you can use it to clean everything. In the how's bathrooms. Kitchens countertops any type of material any type of of Surface garage floors oil grease stains angels wheels tools upholstery. You don't get new stuff. Used Genesis nine fifty you can get it on Amazon Dot Com. I don't WanNa do that. I want you go direct to the source genesis. Nine five zero dot com Tom. You're going to give you a free spray bottle. They're going to give you a discount. When you use Promo Code blaze genesis nine fifty dot com and use Promo code blaze all right so so God created you? This is my world view. This is a paradigm the net through which I see the world. God created you. You are a product of creation. You are a product of design your product of of unbelievable detail and you are as the Bible says fearfully fully and wonderfully made. There's so many things get around Ben Carson sometime and let him talk about just the brain process of chewing and swallowing food and he'll go through this long. Two minute description of all the things that have to take place near your brain for you just to chew and swallow food and that that's it we're fearful wonderfully made. I have no question about that. People say now a product of evolution Blah Blah Blah. I've never seen anybody put a stick. A dynamite might in a in a building material. Set it off and watch a house get built. It just doesn't happen like that. You are a product of designed somebody put together so when you talk about what you were assigned at birth. Now I'm not getting into what you desire or what you focus on what you're attracted to but when you start talking about sexuality is as a spectrum where you can just go in any direction you want to go. We're not talking about sex. We're talking about gender here and that's really what's that is. What is under attack here? Because being attracted to people with gender non conforming identities and fetish izing transpeople two different things. This says being sexualize specifically we're having a certain gender presentation feels a bit key an authentic. This of course was said by person. WHO's gender fluid Tarot reader in Milwaukee? Don't you love it and don't you love this they quote. Are you with me with me. Now Yeah Yeah. It feels like I'd have to stick with that to remain attractive. which is something I wanNA do? I'd rather know the people who are drawn to the part of me that stays constant obstacle all my gender is always changing now this is the mindset getting up I mean this is the mindset about keeping your options ends open whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Mom what happened. What did you not tell me what? Okay so what that says is you can remain attracted to my penis while my gender keeps changing. which ain't nobody attracted to a pain? Okay okay I'm sorry. Yes you're designed by God but God messed up on the front of a scam has gotten messed up. Okay I kind of like mind you would johny on the planet does don't have any problem with mine. Now there you go there you go get Roman dot com. I'm not going to ask you about that. I'm not I'm wondering why the culture hadn't attacked all the plumbers across the entire tire world. They talking about plumbing parts male and female and stuff like that. I don't think I know yeah that'll be coming. I don't I don't feel like I've personally been fetish is because of my gender presentation what but what is the gender presentation like you've got no I show up. I present myself as a man. Yeah but that's just too I. AM It's like. I'm not presenting. I don't know so my gender presentation but I do know that a lot of other gender non-conforming friends hands have been fetish is. This is a person that's A. Pr Count Says San Francisco San Francisco. Yeah I'm doing the identity. As a non binary lesbian is often attracted to other. I can't even. I can't even with this scoliosis scoliosis. You -ality could mean a lot of different things. Is what the article goes onto. Say the best way to understand the terms to avoid here's here's where he gets down to avoid object defying or fetish izing. Is You just ask. Ask the person who identifies as such what it means to them. No no no. I'm not and you should neither because again I told you if it rubs the cat the wrong way. Tell the Damn cat around turn the cat around. If you don't like it lick it man. I'm telling you get the hell out of here with this nonsense it's crazy. I don't need that. That's what I mean. Don't Cram it down my throat. I am not responsible for your crazy. AINSI I don't care what you packing. I don't care how you're presenting it's not my responsibility to gender you properly pronoun you properly pronounce your name properly. I mean my God. People mispronounced my name. Day In and day out. I don't care. I'm not offended by people make. Oh here's the other thing you've seen it on twitter everybody income at me because my name is Chad. Your search ad. You're such bad. Oh my God. You're a Chad I mean you've seen this whole thing you know you're what should the the that's what you've got. Now you're gonNA get triggered by Miss `gendering mispronouncing mispronouncing and micro aggressing somebody. But YOU'RE GONNA make fun of my my name. You'RE GONNA make fun of my hat. You're GonNa Make Fun of the color of my skin. Fact that I sit in a truck. Sadler gotTA party Palestine. He's got long hair he's very effeminate after left. That's what I'm talking about Shave Sean. Michelle there after left you can get it shop dot blaze mess it up shop DOT theblaze dot com go to the chat collections responsibility. It's not I remember reading science fiction years ago. I can't remember who the author was. I love it right now. So yeah there's a science fiction story and he was talking about The the how the universities humans and He said if there was a name that they were going to give us. We'll be called the categorize irs We like I mean what does it kingdom class order. Family Genus Species We categorize things you know. Okay male female. We put things in categories and it. It's part of our nature to identify and figure out where this fits in the big picture and this whole gender fluid thing runs completely afoul of that. Yeah because they're saying oh no. You can't categorize me and I think that's what it's all about. It's not about how they feel it's how they don't WanNa be categorized. I don't think any of US purposely go out there and miss gender somebody. Oh No. Don't get me wrong. Not No people that would do it and call people out in public. That's an anomaly. It doesn't it isn't that's bigotry. So I mean yeah I mean it's better off you know how many white people from the south that I know that call it. The KLU Klux Klan Lyon Ku Klux. They can't even pronounce it. Trust me main members. They don't even know so. I mean that's the kind of thing you're right and that's that's the whole deal people. Everybody everybody wants to a bigoted way. Call US bigots. We're not being bigoted at all. We're just saying get off this whole label lane yeah it hey guys tack. Pack is the premier monthly subscription boxer military tactical the second amendment enthusiasts for just forty nine ninety five a month. They're gonNA ship you at least one hundred dollars worth of gear you're going to get. Ar Fifteen parts ADC tools nine cleaning kits mix of other tactical gear and apparel direct to you and now it's time for them to reveal their next pack so listen up December's pack features. A blade played from K.. T. which is one of my favorites gear from Sons Liberty Gun works HEX MAG and more. This is their special Christmas pack. So guess what that means is going to feature two hundred seventy dollars worth of gear. It is the ultimate gift for the tactical and survival minded enthusiasts in your life and if that person is you don't feel guilty just treat yourself go to tech pack dot Com and when you use the Promo Code Chad at checkout. They'll ship you a free. Mr Bag of tactical goodies shipped shipped out around the same time efforts backpack. And if you're upset that you missed the November back well are you gotta do send them an email info at tech pack dot Com. If you sign up they might have some left and I bet you they'll do. They'll make sure you get it. So if you're into tactical gear from the best companies for half the price tag packets for you attack pack dot com that's tack back. Tac Pack P. A. C. K.. Dot Com and use offer code Chad. There's a woman. Ottawa Ottawa. Life Site News November fifth. Two Thousand Nineteen. This is just yeah. They're representing presenting the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms representing a young girl and her mother in an application. For the -Tario Human Rights Tribunal against the Ottawa. Carleton Often District School board child's former teacher and the principal of the school. The family brought the claim for discrimination on the basis of gender identity for teaching in be which is what the clarifier as non binary and her class. There are no such things as boys or girls in be identified. Identify strongly as a girl. The amended application includes a claim for discrimination on the basis of sex and those the child's rights to security and the person and equality under section seven Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. It's got a lot of attention obviously. Six year old student six year old student was class. The teacher showed him a youtube video video entitled he she and the Gender Queer kid stuff number two. You believe this that the title. Yeah yeah where kids stuff number. Two video contained a number of statements about gender identity and asserted that some people aren't boys are or girls and those who do not feel like she she or he might not have a gender in order to determine who is a girl or a boy or neither the video says all you have to do is ask someone their wow. Oh I'm sorry but I'm categorizing. What do I call? Somebody who has is X. X Chromosomes is a word. We don't have any words anymore for that. I don't I don't know right words. That's the problem. Yeah yeah they call it anything so it goes home. Does her parents asking why her identity as girl was quote. Not Real Not sure she wanted to be a mommy. When she grew up asking she should go to the doctor about this issue to express the feeling that she had to do something about the fact that she is a girl followed by? Aw Lesson On the concepts of gender spectrum of sex changes They didn't get parental consent. Teach that Candida. They probably don't have to. They probably they. You know but the reason so you know now. This family's concerned and move the kid over to a new school and there I know if everyone has a gender identity gender identifies identities are protected under the quote code than this. NBC's gender identity as a girl should be protected. Well you know I so. Don't be a boy. Don't be a girl. Don't be any of that stuff anymore too. Dangerous don't do it Kevin. There's got to be There's something that you are now if you want to identify as something else fine head don't care that doesn't bother me at all but era Boy who identifies as non binary or your girl. Who identifies as a boy or you know? There's what you are and then there's what you identify I as And I don't mind you identifying as whatever you choose to identify us but there's something that you are. Yeah I mean there's there is a reality of okay you have the capacity to give birth because you have a womb. Okay you're you're genetically ex- ex- there's a term for that. It's called female. Now if you you don't identify as a woman fine I don't care about that doesn't bother me at all. You know you WANNA be called. He fine you just let me know and I'll try to do do that. But if I'm walking out of the gas station all the door open for you because he's already don't blast me because I'm sorry obviously ex ex- that's what I'm going to see. You know that's where I'm coming from your Ex. That's not going to change. That is not going to change. So we've seen a lot of this stuff off again. You just keep you just laundering it. You keep laundering it becomes more palatable becomes accepted to the point where now you have drag Queen Story our in front of kids kids at the library in this one. You Know Drag Queen Guy Flashes the kids whether inadvertently accidentally but there is his dinger's hanging out and you know in front of all the kids and people are defending. This is this is okay. Let me why. Why do we have to have a drag Queen Story Hour? I mean I don't and understand this so I'm GonNa Finish this episode with this story right here because this is this is the thing and this person wrote an article about how about a transgender storytime from a victim and so here was a person who wrote a wrote. A deal wrote a little a little little blog post here and talks about it was her personal testimony of being married to a quote transgender man and she said I have an idea. Let's just have a transgender story. Time at the library. A start with my story. It isn't a really happy story but it's true story that includes children being told they can no longer call their father dad even in the privacy of their own home or they face punishment includes children being coerced where pride but bracelets to school by a transgender lover of their transgender father. It includes transgender father and F- TM note female female to male lover repeatedly telling ninth grade boy. It's okay to be gay and he can totally tell them if he is it includes an MTA father and his transgender activists. Friends trying to put children ages five six and eleven on the transgender float in the pride parade which featured a man wearing a bondage Outfit Leash and holding a whip. It includes abuse and threat to murder of all my children and my ex by my F- tm by the F. TM female to male lover of their father other it includes FDM transgender. That has a criminal history for assault and battery against a woman partner but still appointed co-chair to LGBT advisory board by the mayor it it includes children finding sex toys and straps for bondage an sem on the bed at their dad's house where they sometimes slept with their dad and his lover on the same bed. It includes how nobody who knew this was happening in the family courts court appointed counsel and psychiatrist and CPS did not take action to protect these children until the lawsuit was underway putting the microscope on them. It would include includes boys who cried themselves to sleep for years it would include a boy dropping out of boy scouts because he did not have a father to participate with after the crossover ceremony because his dad was crossing over to today opposite sex it would include the harassment. I had to endure. The hands of activists lawyers bombarding me with motions and complaints in running up legal bills on a single mom While activists paid the bills of the transgender client so that the kids could be taken into custody by him for a victory on their side. Despite the fact that they were primarily cared for all the not by me the mother it include suicidal idealization experienced by the boys and manifestations of OCD including track. Attila mania pulling out hair eyelashes ashes eyebrows and one child and also forced regurgitation by one child because the child wanted to feel calm and in control it would include father who wanted to breastfeed his own baby. It would would include counselor who is active in the LGBT community. Calling me a close minded. When I wanted to save my marriage and stop the cross dressing I found out about it would include that the counselor said I must be a lesbian? It would include the deep pain that a wife suffered as a result of losing a husband and breaking up her family over what is a lie. A man becoming a woman it would include the ways the cross dressing tormented her and affected our own expression of feminine entity for years it would include how the narcissist survival techniques of a man who is living ally and pursuing an even bigger one affects the mind and spirit of a wife it would include how doctors lie on medical records because a feelings it would include how counselors ignore previous mental health diagnosis assist and pursued the wishes of their patient even without his wife. Being informed of the impending sex change it would include a husband concealing the taking of sex change hormones for for over eleven years possibly contributing to miscarriage and related cancer. It would include being told I cannot co parent with a transgender parent. Because I am a Christian it would include lawyer trying to force me by the power of the courts to use preferred pronouns. When referring to my husband a fifteen years and father of three children? I don't know what to dress up. As and what songs and crafts to include in the story time but it would be an honest storytime. Now they're going to be here that and they'll say oh that's just bigoted that's hate-filled eight Phil. Why why? Why can't that person identify along their belief system? That's are you want to be inclusive. That's a victim. Why can't she tell her story? Tell that story that and I'm telling you those things are happening more times than you want to admit or choose to admit but I'm telling you there are victims. This is not a victimless thing. There are people who are suffering dealing with this because of mental issues and by the way it is a fact that forty two to forty five percent of people with gender dis. FAURIA commit suicide so deal with the numbers the numbers it's a major issue but were labeling it we're laughing at it we're laundering and it's gotTa stop. It's gotTa stop because it really does harm people. It really does harm people. Look I'm all for you you you got issues. I'll be your number one person you're dealing with something when you're dealing with an identity issues sexual identity. I will support you I will I will. I will hug you hug your neck support you counsel you to the best of my billion point you in the the right direction and and and try to help you but by God you you can't just let the craziness keep on running. You can't because it's messing coming up a lot of stuff and we're talking point six percent of the American population. It's an awful lot of passengers in the car. Getting hurt a lot l.. Kedah part of how you come out. What is gay? I'll love you with a gay. So you and the gender gay two different whole talking about gay Steve Oca- I know you're tendencies and I know what you're capable of. You can't be a woman Romi up I'll show you but you can be gay. You could be oh shut up and laugh about it. Hey I'm a Sapio file. I'm a something that's why I like you. Yeah you're I identifies the human. Oh boy if it ain't race sexuality Lee or gender or whatever nationality ethnicity candidacy the queen of the Ethiopians. We don't even know what she is. I love your kid. Get that twenty three and me sponsorship. Rolan curious I I really WANNA know if anyone I'm from twenty three and me and would like to sponsor the show can email chat dot com. You could swab me. Wants him I would love to be able to like swamp myself every six weeks should see how the results it's came back he didn't gonNA change doesn't twenty-three chase you. I would want. I WOULD WANNA be a test subject. What do they sponsor another show here? I don't delays I. I don't think so anyway. Come find us on tour are bigoted comedy show. Everybody could watch jet DOT COM. Come out and find this man love. Everybody loved everybody loved diversity. We're inclusive man. Yeah we love everybody but you gotTa stop with the nonsense. Sexuality is not a spectrum it is not a spectrum. It's not where you find yourself on the spectrum. That's that's not what it is that is nonsense. Biology is not bigotry. Folks put that in your head. Okay keep it up keep it up. What else we got anything all right? Good God bless you. Thanks for tuning in good were podcasts are offered little watch Chad Dot com ratings reviews. You you know if you got to watch Chad Dot com you can scroll the bottom of my homepage and there is a link right there. You can listen to and watch the podcast right there. WATCH DOT COM so boom Likud party. Steve Take itself south-east himself so I can look at it. Oh Okay and I got your face written a background. We're getting Matt here. Let y'all got buff see next time back.

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Exposing The Reality of Transgender & Nonbinary Science | Debra Soh Interview

The Rubin Report

55:17 min | 3 months ago

Exposing The Reality of Transgender & Nonbinary Science | Debra Soh Interview

"I'm Dave Rubin and this is the Rubin report as always guys make sure you're subscribe to our Youtube Channel and have clicked that pesky notification bell and joining me today is a neuroscientist who specializes in gender sex and sexual orientation as well as the author of the new book the end of Gender debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society. Dr Deborah so welcome back to the Rubin Report Hi Dave. Thank you for having me again so I was checking right before I sat down to see when I had you on last and it's almost two years to the day. It's two years to the week. And we were talking about much of the stuff that you wrote about in this book gender and the whole lgbt letter conglomeration and identity and all of these things. And I remember when we sat down for the first time that a lot of people said. Oh No this trans stuff. This isn't real. Nobody really cares about this stuff all these things. These are just made up things that only academics and you youtubers care about flash forward two years to where we're at right now with your book coming out this week and it's like this is one of the biggest issues around so I guess my first question is it must feel pretty good to not be crazy. I guess so but I've just so horrified by how everything is turned out. I mean I was really when I saw you two years ago. I remember things were just starting to pick up in the mainstream and I was still hoping there's still a chance maybe this is going to get caught. People are going to figure things out. We're going to be able to cut this off before it gets too crazy but it really has just gotten worse and with the end of gender. I wrote that book really with the hope of trying to again. Bring more attention to these issues so that people might take them seriously and realized that you know we're not just a bunch of fringe crazy people complaining about things these have real implications for people's lives especially for young people and it's going to be really really unfortunate an ugly in a few years. Yeah all right so. The book is really spectacular and you dive into what are considered some of the most controversial topics of the day. So we're obviously going to get to all of that but for for anyone watching this. That didn't see our first interview. Can you just do like a quick two minute? Sort of recap of your bio of how your training that led you to to write this book right? So I when I was in my PhD so in Sexual Neuroscience Research. I now work as a journalist right predominant about the science of sex and gender also about politics and how politicisation of scientific research is really doing society and a disservice and also had a lot about academic freedom. Because that's becoming an another problem that we're seeing and so for myself in the last few years of my PhD. I had noticed the political climate of academia was shifting and it was becoming very clear that there are certain topics that you are not allowed to research that. You're not allowed to talk about or discuss. Even if you are a scientific expert in the field and one topic in particular that I had been following was the issue of gender transition in children and so at that time every single mainstream news piece pretty much I could count on. Maybe there's one or two fingers the number of pieces that had come criticizing this at that time said that the best way for for children who are gender dysphoric so they feel they're more like the opposite sex than the sex that they are born as the best way forward for them was to social transition at a young age younger being better and that once they did transition they flourished. You know parents would say that. They're doing so much better. But from a scientific perspective all of the research literature suggests that it's actually better for these children to wait until they reach puberty. There's a very very high chance that they're going to grow the way they feel. They're more likely. Grow Up to be gay adult. And so I wrote an op Ed about this and I waited about six months because I didn't know if I really wanted to publish it because I knew it was going to. There's going to be huge backlash and I asked the number of my mentors and colleagues what I should do and I remember one of my mentors to me. I asked him. Should I wait until I have tenure? Because at the time I had planned to stay in academia and I had a whole plan in terms of what I was going to do in terms of my research and he said that tenure would not protect me in this climate so I decided to publish that piece and it was It was a difficult time. I'm really glad I did it. And I write in the book about you. Know what that process was like for me and what it was like being mobbed really badly for the first time but once you get through your first mobbing you're fine and they can't stop me now. It's funny because you know I've been through my own version of the mob thing and I feel the same way. Once you get through it you will survive. It's not going to hurt. It's going to suck all of that stuff but once you get through it and survive you will be stronger on the other side. Could you talk a little bit though about the reaction from your colleagues? Because I'm still I think a lot of people can't accept somehow that academia could be this corrupt that when you write a paper using scientific evidence saying that you know when you transition this young. It doesn't necessarily lead to a happier life and you use data and evidence to support that that you still get hit from the other academics. People can't really the average person who's not in academia can't really understand how that happened to academia. I would say within sex research which was my discipline. It really has been like a canary in the coal mine because we saw these issues especially left leaning science this has been an issue for decades and sexology. Which is the scientific study of sex and gender so most of US INSECTS? Algae ARE LIBERALS. I consider myself still to be a liberal and and I think my colleagues are just focused on doing good work as be so. I wouldn't say not that you were saying this but I wouldn't say sex. Research necessarily themselves are corrupt in why they stay silent. It's more that they know that they already have a target on their back. Usually sexologist are dealing from Science now coming from the right cause usually not everyone on the right is is has an issue a sex researchers but historically. It's been more on the right now. That is coming from the left. It's like sex. Researchers don't know how to deal with it because in a lot of cases people in the same side as you and your you feel as though is this really as important as calling it when the right comes after us so I think that's one layer of it you know it's very competitive. Academia and to get a tenure position is almost UNHEARD OF NOWADAYS. So were very busy. It's stressful and then then you have these other academics and other disciplines who are not scientific not to say that they all have bad intentions. But they're starting to take over there the most vocal and they're getting a lot of support. Also I would say by mainstream news outlets so it as time goes on it feels I think more and more like you have more to lose than to gain by speaking out so why start speaking out now. And that's where that's how we got to where we are so one of the things that. I'm really amazed by. I've brought this up with a couple guests when I've talked about the Trans Issue I've talked about this with Douglas. Murray and with Rob Smith and a couple of other people is that in many ways the Trans Movement now seems almost perversely anti gay. Meaning that if you're an effeminate young boy they would rather see you transition to be female rather than accept that you actually are just a gay male so I also think just for me personally. It's particularly weird because I played with Gi Joe's in transformers so the no one thought I was gay per se right but if I but I have friends that played that we're boys. The played with barbies and people thought they were gay when when they were five. And that if they now even though may be in their forties now if they were growing up now and they were four years old five years doing that they would have been put through transition. And that seems sort of anti-gay doesn't it hundred percent one hundred percent and myself as we talk last time. I was with you. I grew up in the gay community. I find this setting. I have countless friends who've reached out to me over the years saying debris if I were growing up. Now I probably would have transitioned because this is such a common thing when you are a a young child Who is likely going to grow up to be gay? You tend to be gender atypical and have interests that are gender atypical and friends of the opposite sex. So that's been a huge concern of mine especially we talked also about how transitioning now I considered I think many in the field will agree that it is like the new conversion therapy. Where if you have a healthy gay child. Who say you have a little boy? Who's very feminine? I think some parents have a sense. There's a chance he's going to grow up to be gay so if he's attracted to men when he's older if he transitions to female as a child when he grows up he's going to be your appear to be a straight woman that. I mean I think homophobia does play a role in terms of the parents who not for all of them but for some of them are so on board with this and who are championing this movement and then there's another layer I think of anti-gay sentiments in that you have some individuals some Trans Women. Not all who are saying you know if I'm a woman and I I still have body parts that would be considered male if you are attracted to women you should be wanting to have sex with me and I don't think that's okay either. I think it's totally fine. If people are open to having I think transpeople do deserve love and respect. But I also don't think it's right to impose on people just like you know. Some people might not be into ASIANS WITH BLONDE HAIR. And that's perfectly there right Computer systems in cars are the new normal from electronically controlled transmissions to touchscreen displays to dozens of sensors. But you can't fix any of these new features yourself so when something breaks. It could cost a fortune. That's why you should have carshield. Carshield has affordable protection plans that can save you thousands for a covered repair including computers. Gps Electronics and more no long term contracts or commitments. Carshield gives you options others. Won't your favorite mechanic or dealership does the work and carshield takes care of the rest and twenty four seven roadside assistance and a rental car while yours is being fixed drive with confidence knowing you got coverage from America's number one auto protection company for as low as ninety nine dollars a month. Protect yourself from surprises and save thousands for a covered repair. Call eight hundred car. Six Thousand and Mention Code Ruben. Or Visit CARSHIELD DOT COM and use. Code Ruben to save ten percent. That's carshield dot com code Rueben. A deductible may apply and now back to the show. Yeah do you think it's starting the sort of hysterical nature of this of what you just described attracted to me if this and all those things do you think? It's starting to backfire on them. Because I think most people even even conservatives that sort of as you alluded to earlier they don't they don't sort of love talking about these topics. I don't know a lot of conservatives that don't want Trans People. I don't know any conservatives. Actually that don't want people to be treated equally under the law or something or something like that but I do sense that there's a real backlash now where the movement has gone far. That people are just like you know what? Forget this whole thing. The whole thing is evil. And that's what I'm worried about because when we group these letters together I can. I can sort of understand the people that are frustrated like that. I could see that what we're really concerns. Me is where we are going to be going. The next step is going to be in terms of what the outcome is going to be. And so we're seeing. Also this growing trend of non binary people identifying as non binary and again that can be for some people away of coping the fact that they are gay or lesbian and they are not yet able to accept that about themselves or because it is easier to not identifies gain society. Because there is still homophobia and so you just getting word non binary is just for for someone that might not know yes. It's people who identify as a third gender so they may say they're both genders or neither and so non Binary Gender Fluid Gender Neutral Gender Queer even though Queer is considered vice people's to be a slur against gay people. I don't tend to late to use the word queer So yeah so. This is a really fast quickly. Growing movement among millennials. Something like ten percent identify as a third gender. So that's a lot of people and I would be totally onboard people identifying however they want if it didn't also include things like medical interventions like double mastectomies taking testosterone testosterone a lot of cases and and a lot of cases. I think these are just young. Gay People who are struggling with that and we offer them support instead of having them undergo these interventions right. So that's what I think is so interesting about this because I think the average person wants people to live and let live and however you identify. That's fine as long as you're not forcing someone to do something. I think what what happens then? Is this next version where it's like you can be you can say you're non binary and if you feel that way then so be it but what happens is then they won't let you accept biology so now it seems like this is now in direct conflict with biology and I think a lot of people are sort of? They're like no. That's the last line here that we're just not gonNA give on the fair to say right and again thank you I. I have no issue with people how they want to identify. Just don't tell me that. That's what the scientific research shows because when you start denying science that doesn't help anyone and the truth is eventually going to come out so with regards to gender gender is binary because for ninety nine percent of US are gender is our biological sex. Of course there Intersex people and their trans people for whom this doesn't necessarily apply but that's not to say that gender is a spectrum or that it's however you want you don't you don't choose your gender you know. This is what they're teaching and education. Oh that that people choose their gender and I think it's really harmful to put all this misinformation out there especially in the case of someone who is identifying this way for reasons that may come from their own internal struggles and maybe they have other mental health issues. And they're not. We're not being able to talk about that. I think if we could have the conversation and someone would say yes. I've considered all these things but I still feel. I would like to have a double mastectomy and that would be better for me. Even though a lot of these individuals are really young. When they're doing this then I wouldn't have much of a problem but we can't even have the conversation if you even try to bring it up. It's considered hateful to say that there are two genders is considered transphobic. Now right so what so all right some people watching this clip it and say that you're transphobic and I'm the self hating gay and all the usual stuff so to counter that and you write about this in the book it. Can you just sort of give me the roadmap? If there was a young person six years old. That really felt that they were. They were physically boy but they identified as a girl. What do you think healthy roadmap would be as opposed to the unhealthy? Roadmap that you're talking about transitioning them at such a young age I would say to the parents especially just to love your child unconditionally. It doesn't matter what toys they want to play with what they want how they want address who their friends are anything like that. Let if this little boy wants to wear makeup and dresses and play with girlfriends and should be totally fine and conversely if you have a little boy who's male typical. I think that's also I think among especially woke parents. They don't want their children to be gender typical nowadays which is just so bizarre. So it's it's like the inverse of what it used to be. That parents didn't want their kids. Playing with Gender Atypical Toys because they're afraid their kids are going to grow up to be gay and now it's that they don't want playing with gender typical toys because they think that's going to limit their growth as an adult so yeah just leave him alone and if he says he wants to be the opposite sex see how he feels that puberty right. So then what is what does that look like so now okay so the child they they love them they they let them play with whatever they want. Be Friends with. What whoever they want to wear whatever they wanted cetera now now puberty comes along then then where you at. What would normally happen? Saving the. What's been documented in research. Literature is children who are gender dysphoric once they start having crushes on their peers once they start growing into their bodies realize oh. This is actually pretty great. I like my body and I'm happy. The ones who remain dysphoric and persist. I would recommend seeing a mental health professional or even even prior to that point. If the child's gender dysphoric is quite severe and debilitating the issue though. Is THAT NOWADAYS. The vast vast majority of mental health professionals who work with gender dysphoric children and even gender does work. Adults are I don't want to say that they're compromised but definitely ideologies playing a huge role in terms of how they practice because they cannot by law. Say anything other than yes if you want to transition. I'll help you. I'll help facilitate this. Because they're going to be accused of commit of practicing conversion therapy even though conversion therapy for gender identity does not exist. There's a difference between conversion therapy for sexual orientation. Which was we talked about. Last time is not effective. It should not be done. There's no such thing as conversion therapy for gender identity because young children who identifies the opposite sex again? Their gender is. I don't use the word fluid but it's more flexible. Because they haven't fully developed yet so development. They're more likely to feel differently. Right all right so he just a completely clear that up and we did go into the first part. The second part Last time so gender or conversion therapy for gay people meaning to take a a young gay boy and to do whatever version of conversion therapy. There is There's just no evidence that actually works. What you're saying here is if a if a therapist was dealing with a young person who identified as the other gender that in essence they sort of have to go with it because what what is it that they would lose their license or or is there because it's not conversion at that point at some level right like what what what are or you think. It's just the pressure of being a therapist that they'll they'll be ostracized is the climate is other professionals will ostracize them because they do run the risk of then losing their license because organizations will come after them and say you are not practicing. According to what the standards are supposed to be the of activists coming after them trying to ruin their reputation and their livelihood. And so what has happened? Is I know colleagues who've told me that anyone who does not feel right about this. They are leaving the field. They will not see patients with gender dysphoric period. Because they just they don't feel right and they can't do their job properly. Yeah all right so I know. You're a neuroscientist. I and you talk a lot about the the brain science behind some of this stuff. Can we do like a like a sort of simple version of what you know? Studying the brain would show you about say what a SYS gendered heterosexual brain might look like versus You know the brain of a gay person versus Trans Person Right. So there is a very strong research literature documenting differences in the brain associated with sexual orientation. So the the Gay People and straight people when they're viewing pornography of their choice that they prefer so. If you have a straight man he'd be looking at women if you have manning's looking at men the same network of brain regions activate in the brain so it has to do with emotion has to do with the visual system has to do with regulating sexual drive and so people often ask me about the neuro imaging research as it pertains to the transgender population in terms of is something biological is something that we can see in the brain because I think Regardless of what your political affiliation is it people are curious to know. Is this something that it is. Hardwired can be changed. Most people on the left I would say argue in favour of biological or brain-based explanations for gender dysphoric because in their minds that justifies Transitioning and I have to be clear. I do think that adults should be supported and transitioning I have no issue with that. In research to show that for adults transition can be beneficial for them so the show has when people start taking again the research and trying to bend it to fit their political narrative and so we had one study. That came out. I think it was a year ago. That was in children with gender dysphoric so the research literature today has been looking at gender dysphoric in the brain has been in adults and so what it has shown is that adults with Gender Dis Foia. Their brains are shifted in the direction of the sexy identify as as opposed to their sex birth. So if you have a trans woman. So she was born male identifies as female her brain shift in direction of females. But the thing is Lavi Studies is that they are inflated with sexual orientation so again everyone in the study so if you're a trans woman. She was born meal identifies as female. She's also attracted to men so in all of these studies of Trans People there there. They're attracted to people who share their birth sex so from sexological perspective because it can get a little bit confusing sexology. We consider sexual orientation for someone. Who's Trans is based on their birth sex as opposed to how they they would be post transition so all this is what the kids the this study got so much media attention people saying that gender seats in the brain because they similarly showed that their brains for shifted in the direction of the sexy identify as this was taken to be support for early transitioning but again we don't know they sexual orientation was not reported so we don't know maybe these children when they puberty and get older are going to be gay and again they don't need to transition so it's it's a really the sad thing is that researchers just don't want to touch this now so what you'll find is all of the research coming out is compromise because the only people that are doing this. These studies are scientists. Who are totally on board with gender ideology. And they know that that they're not going to have any issue when the studies come any studies that come out. Criticizing Gender Ideology or criticizing Trans Activism are either going to get put under review for a second time which is completely ridiculous and unnecessary or they're going to be retracted or the scientists is going to be called names and smeared so a lot of people. Just say I'm GonNa pick something else. We all know that the left is no longer liberal but the past few weeks have shown like never before the distressing results of our trend towards polarization. The mainstream media has doubled down again and again on their petty partisan mudslinging in the face of a true crisis. It's more important than ever to be informed engaged responsible citizens who want to follow the facts and ignore the nonsense and the noise. That's exactly what don't burn. This book is all about while we faced ton of pressure to delay the publication of this book because of the quarantine. I felt it was important to get these ideas out as soon as possible. I know that free thought free speech and patriotism are as important you as they are to me so I hope this book entertains and inspires you during the days and weeks ahead order now at. Don't burn this book Dot Com Well that's why I find what you do so fascinating because it's like sex is always controversial period in eternity in human history. Everything about sex is controversial and then when you couple it with this new woke ideology it's like I could. I could see why someone like you would be worried. You know years ago about putting that paper out or why. The average researcher now is just like I don't need the headache I'm not GonNa do it. you mentioned before that that there is evidence that when adults transition that that they are happier on the other side is that is that overwhelming or is that fifty fifty or you know there was a Meta analysis that showed that it can be beneficial. But I think what's important is that is taken on a case by case basis and that each individual is able to get the support they need and to go through a proper assessment with a mental health professional to determine is their gender. Dis FEUER REALLY ABOUT GENDER. And is this something that can be solved through transitioning because on a lot of cases there are other issues going on there was one study that showed for people who present with Gender Dis Fauria as many as sixty percent have another psychiatric mental condition. And so that's something that needs to be taken into consideration but the thing is now people don't even want to say that gender dysphoric has anything to do with the mind or the our mental illness because mental illnesses stigmatize. I don't think mental illness or gender or transitioning should be stigmatized. But there's no way. We're going to remove the stigma if we are not able to talk about it openly. Y- you know. I don't remember if this happened to me before we last spoke on the show. But I was at an event at University of New Hampshire and I was talking about this topic and there was a woman who said she was trans and she was yelling. That I'm a Nazi and I'm a racist and all the usual stuff and I kept saying. Listen I want you to be treated equally under the law. Hope you have someone that loves you. I want you to be able to be employed and happy and have all the benefits of everybody else and she just kept saying. I'm on all these things. You're not gonNA believe this or maybe you will. It turns out that she was a gender studies professor at the university. I assume that's pretty consistent with what you're hearing at the university level to not not just the research level but just even at the university the teaching level I find. It's usually people who are always advocating for love and tolerance and acceptance who are the most aggressive and nasty when they disagree with you and so that's not to say that all gender scholars are like that definitely but I do find. I'm always amazed because the whole purpose of being in academia is about debating ideas I would think that's the reason you choose to be a professor as you want to share ideas debate with your colleagues. It's about disagreeing. And that's how you get at the truth and that's completely taken off the table nowadays. Now it's about very much. There's only one way to think about an issue. And if you think outside of that issue yesterday going to be called a Nazi you're going to be deformed you're going to be smeared publicly and they're going to try and get you fired so it's is really absurd but it's it's I think it's not just in academia anymore. As we see everybody getting counseled now. This is spread to the mainstream. Is it weird for you to be sort of in a political fight because that's not sex is political now but like it's not really what you're passionate but you know just from following you on twitter like you're you're you're in the political fight as much as I am at this point? I didn't ever think this is what I'd be doing that. I would be scientists. I've always loved to write so I was hoping to maybe right one day to a book one day in the fact that I've gone the chance to do one now is just been such a blessing and I feel so grateful but for sure I feel. It's something I feel very strongly and I've always felt very strongly about speaking my mind and so I think it does make sense in a way that this is the the direction I ended up going in because I feel in this climate. You don't really have a choice either. You'RE GONNA put your head down. Stay quiet and just you know. It's not worth it or you're GonNa say you're going to go through the multiple lobbying's and say okay. Keep coming then. Yeah you obviously talk in the book and you sort of mentioned it here about. Just the denial of what is actually presented in in the research. Have you figured out any tricks beyond going on podcast and talking about this stuff on Youtube and everything else to convince people that evidence actually matters because in many ways I think what the left is throwing at us? Now he's just sort of this anti intellectual set of ideas it's just it doesn't it doesn't matter the more evidence that you show in a certain way it almost. They use that as proof that they are right. Because you're part of the Patriarchy or you know you're part of the machine that they're trying to dismantle. Have you figured out any tricks to to actually breakthrough in a way? I generally don't try to change the minds of people who are on either extreme or who are extremely ideological because I feel at that point it is. They're they're comparisons being made to people who are extremely ideological and people who are in a cult and I do feel in some way. It's really difficult to break through to someone especially on the Internet. Unless you're saying down with them face to face Mu that can make a difference but I try to speak to the people who aren't really sure what they think or they want to learn more and I always appreciate it when people go to the primary source so I mean I I. I'm sure you know how this feels. I get accused of quote unquote saying things all the time. When I've never said whatever it is the person is saying that I said this'll be reported in newspapers. This'll be all over social media. It's crazy to me. I don't know how how someone can do that. Feel okay about doing that. Especially if you if this you know. This is something that other people are going to publicly and I also think if they wanted to actually end issues like discrimination against particular sexual and gender minority groups that you would actually want to go after people who are saying hateful things. If I'm just reporting what the research says and you have a problem with me then let's talk about the research and what your issues are with that and some people do and I appreciate that and I will engage with someone. If it's in good faith but if you are making things up and saying that I'm saying things I did not say how does that actually help your cause and so it makes me feel like a lot of people in this fight? Don't really care about the issues. They say they care about they care about so I just generally and I would say to to your to your audience also If you are engaging with people and just trying to understand that's that's totally great. I think it's you can only do so much. Do you think the liberals have enough juice have enough. Energy have enough of a sort of intellectual under girding to stand up to. This woke thing. I think this is sort of the new split that you know. The sort of thirty or forty of us that were loosely called the intellectual dark web whatever. It is now warning about all of this stuff and I see a real split occurring at this point where there's some of us that sort of thing that liberalism can somehow fight the woke thing even though I personally see evidence of it and then there's the ones that are that. Are I think more in line with my thing on this? Which is that. There's a lot of bridges to be built to the right. It doesn't mean that those guys are perfect all the time and as you said you still identify as liberal as I do as well but do you think that liberalism in and of itself can withstand. What seems to be happening right now. I think so if more people start speaking up and I do see my surprise because some of the people who said to me even two years ago. I'm not going to get involved in this. This is not going to benefit me. I don't have a dog in this fight. So let's just hope it goes away on. Its own they are now saying this is really bad. I didn't think it was going to get this bad and I need to start speaking about this. How can I speak up about this? What can I do so I do. Think the tide is going to turn. I just think it's GonNa get worse before we get there and my concern is also with all of the science. Denial and all the denial of missing of information. How's that GonNa Affect Our society and our our knowledge our growth. You know because nothing good can come from denying reality. Yeah well we're in. We're in constant denial of reality. This is your in Toronto right now. Is there any difference the way this is discussed? Maybe from a Canadian perspective than it is from an American perspective or has the Internet just sort of level the playing field on that. I think the biggest thing like what I tell people I know is just to try to stay off social media as much as you can because that really exacerbates everything. It doesn't matter wearing the world you are I think. Social media is really polarizing us In terms of differences between Canadians and Americans. I think we're just as bad or we're getting there so don't worry. We export everything so the title the end of Gender Thought. It was kind of interesting. Because it's like you're you're dealing with and unpacking all of these seriously complex issues related to identity and gender and everything else but you're calling at the end of gender. Do you think that what we're left with the end of this conversation if we can truly have it honestly is that gender won't matter won't exist? What what do you mean by the end? Yeah let me clarify. Because when I announced this when I announced the book on Social Media People got upset at me because they thought I was saying that this is like the very super woke far left right and of gender and that Jenner doesn't exist anymore or that gender is completely what you want it to be and it's based on self identification and there's no tethering to biology or objectivity and that's not at all what I'm saying and I really want to emphasize all Pacific that I'm saying. Gender is very much biologically based and it is the misinformation denial of science and denial of biology and denial of evolutionary psychology. That is leading us to not have a proper understanding of gender. And that's why I see its demise. Yeah so paint the picture that turns around besides just some people getting braver like the political part of this. Even I mean when you see at this point all of these the LGBT organizations that at this point I think are just basically using gay people to now push the gender stuff. I mean what what has to happen to them. Or are there nonprofits? That are fighting this from a correct scientific perspective. What has to happen now. Really Hey guys just a quick reminder that the Rubin report community is officially here this is the first project of new TECH COMPANY LOCALS DOT COM. And you can get ad free video. Ed Free Audio podcast. You can communicate with me. You can communicate with other fans. We've got a news feed that has no algorithm make manipulation there's no shadow banning or D. boosting or the rest of it. We're going to be building out these communities for all sorts of creators over the next coming months. But right now you can sign up at Ruben. Report DOT COM or you can download the Rubin report APP in the apple APP store or Google. Play what I see happening and I actually have a line in the book where I say. I'm appalled and I love. I love the Gay Community and I have many gay men who've reached out to me over the years complete strangers. Who say thank you for saying what you did. Because I was one of these children I actually had one individual route to me. Tell me around the around the time my first op. Ed came out. He said I was thinking of transitioning Niger. Bed and I decided to wait and I'm so glad I did so. There is a line in the book where I say. I'm appalled at the number of gay men who are in support of transitioning children because this is leading to the extermination of gay kids and what I really think is going to happen. And this is so unfortunate and makes me so sad is that these kids are GonNa be changing their minds in a few years. Say Five to ten years. So we're what is this. This is going to be August. Twenty twenty when this comes out so give it five to ten years. They're going to be so many kids who are saying. Why did my parents let me do this? Why did mental health? Why did medical professionals at me do this? They going to have issues from being on hormonal treatments from surgery. I'm already seeing all of these. Young people these transitions and it really breaks my heart and no one is listening to them and no one has taken them seriously. And it's GonNa be tons of class action lawsuits and I ready. See good clinicians in the field. Who are concerned. Because they know it's coming and and they fill out a loss because we've been trying to raise attention and get people to take seriously but they just call us transphobic right and by the way it's not just the personal issues in the medical issues and everything else. There's GonNa be an insane amount of legal issues that pop up there. I think there's going to be kids in A. They'll be young adults at the time. That are gonNA start suing their parents. I think they're gonNA start suing the doctors and everybody else involved. I'm sure there are lawyers looking at that right now. There's gotta be right and I would say to your audience too because I'm sure they have been following these issues as well. Pay attention to the people who are most loudly and proudly embracing this and saying this is great for the kids. Because when this time comes they're gonNA turn around and say we had no idea this was going to happen. And they're gonNA pretend that they had no idea when they are coming after those of us who are speaking out about it. I know it's a little weird to be ahead of the curve. Isn't it because you? Kinda feel like you're behind it. Sometimes as as the things start to come true I feel the odd thing and when I was writing this book I felt the whole time. It was a very emotional process for me because it felt very much like those of us who see it. It's like we're able to see the future and we're just trying to scream lot as possible to get people to pay attention. I know I know it You just mentioned that the D. transitioning part of this is there A LOT OF LITERATURE. Is there a lot of research on that as far as how many people have done it? Are they happier after? Are they suicidal? After I mean what? Are the numbers look like on that? There was one study in Sweden. That looked at people who had transitioned and then transfer changed the the marker on their legal documentation and then changed it back and they found that about two percent of people who transition changed back but the thing is not everyone who transitions does it. Legally and also the data collected for that study It finished around two thousand eleven. I think it was so that was before this huge influx. We see of young people especially young women identifying as male And I've written quite a bit and in the book I talk about rapid onset gender disorder. Which is this phenomenon of young women who are very quickly identifying as male wanting to transition to male taking testosterone again getting double mastectomy When they were very gender typical as children. It's usually very out of the blue. They have other mental health issues like autism for a lot of them. They have sexual trauma. That's not being talked about. And so we don't yet data for that. We don't know what that's going to look like although there is one county in the UK where hundreds of d transitions are coming out and saying. I'm have autism. I'm lesbian and why didn't people why didn't why didn't professionals do what they should have done? Which is asked me questions. Yeah I can't imagine discussing anything almost more controversial than that. You couple. This sort of rapid transition with autism. And then you get. You know people to try to talk about that. It's like no one's GonNa you could see why the average researcher just would just be like no way. I'm not doing this. No and it's difficult enough to get a study. Published to get funding for your. I mean the book I talk about a number of situations where researchers have gotten approval. And they've gotten money to do their study and still they have to deal with all. These roadblocks that pop up where people coming after them and threatening them so at the end the day you know scientists taking a very unfortunate turn. I think we're going to look back on this period with with a lot of horror and disappointment but I'm hoping that the the outcome is not going to be that terrible. If we start speaking out about it yeah have they done real research on the social pressures related to all of this like when you mentioned the rapid onset where suddenly a whole bunch of girls that otherwise like sort of appears out of nowhere in essence that could be from a peer group. And then they're doing these things that are just really just crazy extreme to fit in in essence yes so this one study that's been done. In rapid onset gender foyer to was published in two thousand eighteen by LISA. Littman and she did. The research did suggests that there's a peer contagion aspect to it in that these girls so for forty percent of the girls in the study. Who had come out as trans very quickly. They had at least half of their their friend. Group also identify as transgender which is seventy times the rate of what you would see in the general population in terms of people who identify as transgender. So that in itself should raise a red flag in most people's minds but people are saying. Oh this is judy. Greater Social Acceptance. But if that's the case why is it? You don't see the same thing among boys you don't see the same thing among people of different ages. It's very specific to teenage girls and young adults young women about that because boy because young boys you know young boys can be susceptible to peer pressure and all that kind of stuff too. So what what is that about them? I think for these young women in particular from the conversations. I've had with them. It's very much about being discount. Feeling Discomfort with their body for a lot of them going through puberty and suddenly getting male attention and not really appreciating attention from certain people and and also the the message is that they're getting from the media is that if you are gender non conforming at all as a woman then you are probably transgender. Or you're probably another gender and if you look at celebrities a lot of celebrities were born female who are gender atypical identify a third gender so I think no one is saying to them. It's okay if you are young woman and you were different or you feel like you don't fit in. It's okay that's normal. Another thing is a lot of young women are being told if they don't like getting a period that that means that they should be a man and I'm thinking no woman likes getting her period. That's just part of being a woman and as I love being woman I take a lot of pride and so I just wish that we could have this conversation. There's more of this happening because they're not. They're not receiving this information. They're only receiving one message. Yeah so I'm going to sort of give you a theory that I've been trying to put together through some of my own interaction. So this is not scientific in any way but. I think there's probably something to it that what I find on. Twitter is the angriest and most hostile and an awful saying the worst things possible to me. If whenever that happens from you know one of these anonymous accounts I go to the account and almost without exception they have their gender profile their pronouns in there he him she hers. The you know whole thing and I do think there's a sort of connection between. I want to be very clean about what I'm saying here that there's sort of a connection between knowing who you are and knowing reality as it is and then being happy or functional or something can can you clean this up for me because I haven't fully pieced it together but I do think it's quite bizarre that the people who were constantly preaching about tolerance and diversity and everything else are in many cases the ones that act completely the reverse of that. I think part of that could be because so trendy nowadays and it's because people are given attention and praise for identifying in a way that is different from male and female for some people and this is not to say that everyone who identifies as something other than male or female or anyone who is doesn't identifies their birth sex has mental psychopathology. But I do think for some people who have preexisting psychopathology. They're latching onto gender and this movement as a way to bring about meaning in their life or as a way of Feeling good about themselves and so anyone who questions that they take that very very personally and very deeply. I think that's part of why they lash out in such a horrible way. Yeah what do you make of the the intersectional piece of this whole thing that even related to everything going on right now with the protests and the riots and black lives matter you know we had the initial black lives matter movement and then about ten days in there? Was this massive rally. I think it was in Brooklyn for Black Trans lives and I never heard anyone. That's you know that had a problem with Black Trans People. These things all become something. That's not quite what they are. Can you explain sort of the intersectional piece of this? How they outta together. I'm not a fan of intersection as you probably know so. I just see it as a way for people to further promote their own personal agenda. I have nothing against wanting to protest for Trans lives or black trans lives or anyone's life or black lives. I'm all for it but it's when you start authority being authoritarian and starting to shutdown scientists. They had they had a day where they this was not about black translates but they shut down stem for a day in the name of fighting racism. Which makes absolutely no sense to me so I think like identity politics. It's just about in creating increasingly smaller factions to further divide us and for particular people to get their chance at having some power. Are you worried that because we're injecting race into every conversation we're injecting gender every conversation and sexuality and all of these things into everything and now it's in sports messages or just everywhere every TV? Show that you watch that. We're going to sort of raise a generation of big. It's not because they're actually bigoted but they'll just be of all of these issues and then they're going to view the world through that Lens where everything is about your race and your gender sexuality and everything else definitely concerns me because for me and maybe I have an old school view of things but to me to assume that the way someone looks or that their race says anything about the kind of person they are or the way they think or their capabilities that to me is racist but I find that in woke land. It's racist to assume that someone's race doesn't play in those things and I'll never forget. I remember very early on when I started writing. I went to this events and I spoke with one of the Organizers and she said to me she looked in my eyes and she said. I think it's great that you know we need more women who look like you writing and I thought to me. That sounds a bit racist but then I realized after that what she she thought this was a good thing she was praising me because she's saying you know. I guess there aren't many Asian women who are journalists but I don't want to be Considered a good journalist. Because I'm Asian because I'm a woman I want it to be because my work is good and I think that's what it should be about your value as a human being should be about who you are. The person not ticking off certain boxes so it does disturb me quite a bit because I feel especially for white people. They feel like they can't speak up about it because they're going to get called racist. But Debra you know that Asians are the new white people right and we now know we know this right like by the woke ideology agent people are now in effect white because Asian people regardless of the ethnicity or nationality in most cases have succeeded so now we just got to throw him in with the white people. When I saw that pamphlet. That was circulated a couple weeks ago and it was something like hard work is whiteness. I just thought okay. I guess we are white then. Well you're right. You're talking about the thing that was put out by the. Was it at the Black Museum in DC African American Museum in DC. There's so many of them but in effect if you believe in the individual and you believe in hard work and you believe in family that these are all tools of white supremacy and he thought anyone could work hard or you know care about the nuclear family or anything else. What else should we? What else should we hit on here? How about that for an open question? What else what are the other things? You're hitting on in the book that you think the average person needs to know about well what I can do is I can. Maybe just summarize what the different myths are because that will give your audience a sense of what we cover. So I took a science based approach to debunking some of the most prominent myths in our society so there are nine of them so I talk about how biological sex and gender are both not social constructs. They're not spectrums. I talk about how sexual orientation is related to gender identity. Even though many activists in many even educational organizations say they're unrelated. That's not true. They are related. I talk about gender transitioning and children. I talk about The issue of Trans Women and women's spaces and sports and prisons and I talk about. Let's stop on that. Let's stop on that one because I because I'm amazed by this. I mean this thing where we're watching Males transition to female and then play in women's sports and break every record in weightlifting and racing and all of these other things and it's like man one day there's going to be a washed up NBA player. Who is going to transition to female and be the MVP and the WNBA. And then what are the feminists going to say? But I believe that will happen in the next couple of years. What will the feminist say at this point? I think it depends on what kind of feminist so Liberal feminists will say. Probably say what's the problem? I don't think most athletes who are identifying as female Or coming female are necessarily doing it to get an advantage. But it's not to say that it's never going to happen and But whereas radical feminists were critical of gender critical of this whole thing. They've been the most outspoken about this and I would still. I mean I denied as a feminist up until a couple years ago I still want gender equality for many women. I think we do for the most part. Have THAT BUT FEMINISM. I've been critical of doesn't just because I think it has lost sight of its main goals and So radical feminists have joined hands with conservatives. Which would have been completely unprecedented to say this. This is not fair and to consider again. I think I have no issue referring to a trans woman. As she you know referring drew's and the prone like and give her respect and and legal protections in something like sports or say mixed martial arts which is one of my favorite sports. You cannot pretend that there are no differences at between Trans Women even after transitioning and women who are born women because someone can get very badly hurt or even killed in a fight is the irony that guess the radical feminists would would. They argue that there should be no women sports at that point if gender is just a social construct I mean. Wouldn't they say okay? Well then there shouldn't be any women's sports but then unfortunately what they would. What they would end up with is that there would be no women in sports or very few women in sports. Would that be the end outcome myself? So I again I'm not a radical so I wanNA speak for the community but my sense would be because they don't deny biological sex being real so they would say women deserve to have equal opportunities and Trans Women are. They don't consider trans women to be women because they were born male and they've been in. There is socialized as men. So there's no way that they can understand what it's like to be a woman but from my understanding radical feminists are in favor of sex segregation in terms of sports. Because that's the only way that women have affair choice chance it's not that women are less capable is just. That's the reality with biology in reality and reality speaking of reality. Did you see the video? Joe Biden was at the LGBT Equality Forum and he said that it's not what prison it's not what gender your your birth certificate says. That should decide what prison you go to. It's what gender you identify as meaning that you could just say okay? I'm a woman you can be a male murderer. Say Identify as women and then they'll put you in a female prison stuff like that must make your head explode. Well I did see that I remember thinking. I wish that they had someone who works with forensic populations to speak to this because that is not definitely not a good idea and I have worked with sex offenders in the past both in a research and clinical capacity and we used to have a saying. How do you know a sex offenders lying? His lips are moving so I think as with anything in these issues they have to be on a case by case basis but I detail in the book a little bit more about what I specifically think should be done and how we should approach these issues. But it's just it's really become a question of are you on the left or right and you end. People basically state what they think their side wants them to say on these issues. Are there any other myths? We should hit on In the book so the last few are sex differences in sex dating because there's so much misinformation young people are totally confused and have no idea how to go about dating nowadays. So I offer some advice. I talk about gender neutral parenting and then also Social Justice in academia and. I have to say so I now this book as of today. What we're taping. I announced it only a couple of days ago. one of one very prominent columnists in Canada Barbara Case. She wrote a review about my book and The publication so she'd been at the National Post for twenty years. They refuse to run her review because it was a positive view and so she subsequently resigned. And this is after a number of. I think this was the the straw that broke the camel's back but I'm just amazed at already. There's there's a lot of pushback to this book and it's just science. Why is that? Why is that seen as threatening and this is something? I just cannot grasp. I why people see us threatening but we need to talk about why and at the end the day. Scientists need to be able to do their job. Yeah Barbara K. She's one of the. I know you know they swimming. She's one of the great journalists have Canada. I actually saw the tweet about her resignation. I had no I didn't click it Doing a couple of things. I had no idea it had to do with your book that that is unbelievable. Absolute well unbelievable. Everything's unbelievable now so I guess it's totally believable. She did a long facebook post explaining why she was leaving. And then the other half of it was the review of my book and then so both of those pieces were run by. The Post millennial audience wants to look into that a bit more. They can check that out. Yeah absolutely well. Debra luck with the book. We're going to put the link to Dan to gender right down below and I hope we can do this in person at some point or I'll come to Toronto or you'll come here. We'll figure out. Yeah Yeah it's great to see you too.

Dave Rubin Carshield Youtube testosterone Gay Community Black Trans People twitter Gay People Ed researcher Sexual Neuroscience Research Ruben Trans Women Dr Deborah professor Debra Trans Movement Douglas
The Handmaid's Tale 306 - DR212

Paul and Caroline Daley review TV - Handmaid's Tale | The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel | This Is US | Westworld | Stranger Things

1:09:27 hr | 1 year ago

The Handmaid's Tale 306 - DR212

"You don't change me down ever <music>. It's time for the daily review a podcast dedicated to reviews and discussion of T._v.. Movies and books look for us at daily review on facebook and twitter and Daily Review Dot Com on the web. That's A. L. E. Y.. Review Dot Com. This is caroline and today we're going to discuss the seventh episode of the Third Season Poos the handmaid's tale this one is called under his. I think it's a reference to to the way that this all the events in this episode the kind of reminded us that for whatever gains we might have thought that you might have had little adventure. She's still in Gilead and things are still happening the same way that they did the first season I agree. It definitely had that feel of like back to back to be six back to the old school stuff that we've been dealing with for a long time. A lot of the same relationships came bubbling backup and a lot of the same obstacles came right back. Let's go to our story with with emily. She was one that we had been you know sort of just touching base with now and then as she's been back in Canada with her wife and her son Oliver they've been still trying to find their way. Were you surprised to see that the Swiss would go and interview emily as part of this larger questioning to try to figure out whether or not to return Nicole. Let's see she was involved in bringing the baby across the border on that score no but on the questions that they asked her yes I was scared with the questions that they asked her. Because in many ways it feels like she's in danger of being extradited herself for crimes against Gilead. It seems like if they wanted to pursue <unk> prosecuting her for things especially when they said to do things that they would consider illegal. I mean what is going on Paul. Do you think that we should have actual concern for Moya and emily and all of the others have gotten out so far no extradition addition treaty but they but I guess that comes up later I wonder how retroactive such things are. That's a good question. I mean yes the term grandfathered in applies here we did look up what the extradition laws having to do with kidnapping and one of the things that struck me. That was just really interesting in the way that it's worded again. If you guys don't remember at woods hole premise was that all of her little parts that seem so scary to us or actually being done in the world today or have been done before so things like genital mutilation or women's submission all all kinds of stuff like this. These are all things that are done all around the world and so I wanted to see if there was something in the laws about child across borders if there was any kind of treaty out there and the thing that shook me in the wording was that the child is to go back to the to the circumstances that they were in immediately prior to being kidnapped it does not say that they go back to their biological parents. It says they go back to the situation. They were in immediately preceding than being taken across the border which would have would have should have Nicole with the Waterford. 's not that the rightful return is to nick in June funny terminology. There was something about returning to the status quo the immediately preceding also struck me of course that is today's laws but that does give you a frame of reference for the kinds of agreements that in countries have amongst each other where there's no real way to enforce that exactly but it's still sort of how we do things well that agreements have been made and typically when it comes to treaties and things like that you know there are other things writing on it so if you don't do that then something else has affected trade or you know that type of thing so they're they're they're sort of like checks and balances for those agreements. I was really nervous that this entire questioning just brought up this idea that the refugees may in fact not be safe. Did you feel like Emily's wife was handling it appropriately. I guess is the right word in telling emily that the things that happened in Gilead basically stay in Gilead and that she's not offended or upset or in any way bothered the by the offense that happened absolutely at least in this week's portrayal of the wife relationship it is emily is kind of freezing her out which it's the kind of judgment free statement in in that I'm I'm not saying that Bush's doing is right or wrong or bad or good or whatever I'm just saying. She is not taking advantage of the person that came to the interview with her for support and she's just walking away from her. Do you think that that's okay. Though I mean when I think about being an emily shoes I think about how first of all embarrassing and humiliating it would be to have to say an admit that you stabbed someone in the back that you ran over someone you know that that it's just it's so difficult but then also your mind and your your psyche must go back to those incidences and replay them in your mind when your question about them. I don't even think emily's like really there. Shouldn't a lawyer be in that room with you arguing about the Germain -ness of of the questioning I understand that it's a neutral party and all that but shit I mean incriminating yourself to this party. Who's going to go and talk to the people people that you have committed crimes against like I mean? I don't know how the Canadian laws were. I so I don't know how Swiss laws work we know in America you are supposed to be represented by counsel who would hopefully go put their hand over yours and be like let's not that one. It's not like they're they could offer you any kind of like meaningful immunity exactly because what is at stake here is they're going to potentially have the power to send a person back to to Gilead well. I don't think it's a person Hon. I think it's the power to create like a conduit which yeah in which all these people could have to be sent back anyone who committed any crime should should have to stand trial in the country they committed the crime and that's where we get into the opening conversation of Maura and emily mean if that were to happen. There's got to be so many American refugees in Canada this this is where the world building they need to show us more than they have in order for to continue to make sense because I don't know your rank and file American that that did make it out isn't going to be like well okay Canada. I'm glad you're I'm glad you're observing the letter of the law and going to send us back to Gilead which we didn't agree with the formation of in the first place. It's not like we broke laws there that we helped make its laws changed overnight and then we got away well we were slaves yeah or were kidnapped ourselves and taken there the disposition of Americans in Gilead and <unk> Canada's attitude toward them. I need some exposure to that to feel a little more comfortable to get a little a bit of the Stupid Minister Guy and that was not really enough to go on all he gave a very pat. You know bureaucratic sounding answer. You're talking about going back to the previous episode during this episode with the protest yeah sorry I didn't. I didn't even consider that an exchange really okay so I wanna make it clear what I think you're saying. It's not as if they were born. Citizens of Gilead who then committed crimes against fellow citizens and now ran away A. and now the original government wants them back to try them for their crimes. These were citizens of another country America who were stolen or in some way enslaved into this other country and they committed crimes on their way out basically in an attempt to escape now there in Canada my saying that correctly like they're not original citizens of Gilead so they shouldn't be tried or returned as if they were yeah I that's that's my argument is that committing crimes teams in order to get yourself out of trouble is usually kind of winked at by most law enforcing bodies. You know what I mean. You've got to right if you had to kill your kidnapper on your way gives a shit right. You're okay you're not right. You're not going to be eh hopefully ever going to tried for murder so I think so that makes sense because in this case of for all the cases of all of these people they were kidnapped party doesn't matter how how you really look at it. They were kidnapped party on some level so I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think the wife had good intentions. I think this goes back to that conversation. We were having about P._T._S._D.. And are they doing you know victims of P._T._S._D.. Justice with emily you know the wife very much tried to express something that we we all think is a great sentiment is was that the right time <music> I'm was that the right way was that what person struggling with P._T._S._d.. needs to hear I don't know and I hope that I would like to hope that are writers have done their due diligence and have actually researched this and decided whether or not the wife should beat saying things that are appropriate or not you know having misstep on purpose or not but it definitely seemed ineffective no matter what you know. It didn't get through to emily when we moved over the conversation with more room. I'm going to take this a little a little bit not chronologically Moyer as conversation with emily after they got arrested in the protests. They're talking about all the crimes they had committed and there was that sort of that looming cloud of are we bad people now are we have we changed our we now murderers. Are we now people who have the ability ability to kill other people. I really loved how they handled that and they had more say while. How many people have you hurt or killed or done anything to since he's been out of Gilead and emily's like none of course an motorcycle then I think you're good you know? Do you think that's supposed to be like a contrast to the conversation with the wife or the wife is doing the best she can but she doesn't have any frame of reference so she's just saying like you know whatever you had to do. It's okay we don't have to make a big deal out of it in more as saying whatever you had to do I had to do the same thing how I get through it is by these little chats talking with other people like you about what we had to do to get out kind of like a difference there you know what I mean in terms of like ability to understand and be on the same level certainly certainly the comforting aspect of it. I agree that it's like it would get through to emily and a completely different way. Just saying what you did doesn't matter versus what you do did matters others but you had to do it in order to survive and in order to be here today so I'm getting at is kind of different because I crazy. There's something about what the wife was saying that I am not down on this wife so I just WanNa be clear on that but there was something about it that was like a little bit dismissive. In terms of what's done is done and the way that Moro was able to sort of shine light on it. It was a little more like it was the circumstances we were in in you. Were trying to get home to your family and so it did happen. Happen and it was warranted and you're not a bad person for it and the wife was sort of more like it happened ignoring move on you know and it was like a little bit a little bit different I can see it's very subtle but I could see where one's more comforting than the other and certainly how's the wife GonNa understand she can't she got out. I mean the where she got was kind of those tense situations at the airport when they were trying to get out exactly yeah so let's let's finish up only because we didn't really have that much more with her except for we had this conversation in the coffee shop that you could take to be just very like I was just Chit Chat Idle Chitchat but I think that we're bringing in this homosexuality topic more and more in the show and I'm wondering again with George if they're we're sort of just sort of like lacing in more conversation about like the way that the this was a quote like gazing common like I wonder if they're if they're just subtly layering it by having Emily Moro talk about like certainly we've crossed paths like certainly there's people we have in common who both slept with or we both have deeded or we both have known within the Gay Community and I'm I'm wondering if the if you took that that conversation and you said what seemed kind of like out of context. Why wouldn't they be talking about something else? I don't know what but why would they bother if they only get one conversation in the coffee shop. Why would they bother having them? Have this conversation of where do we cross section in the gay community. My guess is is that their foreshadowing having a romantic attempts between these two. Oh really that's my guess. Okay talk to me. I don't know that it would work. Issues more like I could see it coming as like a an attempt. It was funny because until they were having that conversation Titian I've forgotten that they were both gay as funny as that is like I was like oh I guess they could be attracted to one another and be interested in dating with what another I wasn't. I wasn't thinking about that that possible connection with them at all so interesting that you say that like maybe it will end up that it's more comfortable for emily to be with more anyway because shared he knows her. If Georgia's gay isn't that potentially like a little a little high on the representation meter is only like ten characters in this show and that would be three gay characters potentially just saying the numbers aren't aren't there for for that to be represented in such a high percentage given how that population is treated in this future <hes> it is I suppose but my main thing is that I feel like this. Entire episode was foundational and laying the groundwork for like what's going to happen next. We have episodes where things happen. We've episodes where we're sort of like setting people up to the next thing and I'm I'm just wondering we last talked a lot about George being infrared space and a lot about how the sort of like was this a sexual tension or was this just like male domination and then we have the women talking about. Maybe you're right. Maybe this is just going to be <hes> a moving towards a situation where two survivors of a similar incident have a better chance of making a connection and having a successful life together then a survivor with a person who who wasn't a part of it. Maybe that's it has nothing to do with gay or not. Gay just has to do with that. Maura and emily experienced the same thing. If you were in a fire together or worse terrible thing you could understand each other on about that and somehow then you can make a love connection. Maybe that's simply what it is and has nothing to do with the fact that they were talking about. What are Gay Cross sections are in dating? You're right maybe they were just simply sort of doing what you might do interested in another party. You might talk about their past. You might talk about Ooh. Do you know where do you know. Where have you been? Who've you dated? You know you might talk about that. If it was a guy and a girl you would definitely think that immediately you think other kind of doing that kind of interviewing dance of like. Do we have friends in common. We have people who've dated in comment that kind of thing yeah so that's the kind of talk to made me think it definitely that they're gonNA attempt some sort of love connection between the two speaking of attempting love connections we have Serena and Fred looks like they're trying to the threat of moving them to D._C.'s getting closer and closer closer I think so it seems like with Serena being led around by Olivia through this a home which I thought was interesting. They were restrained referred to it as an unrestored home which in a way made you think that it was like a <hes> you know going to be like an antique home that needed to be updated but it was haunting when you walked in and it was like all the families shoes were lined up there smashed glass on the floor and everything it was scary. It give me a very walking walking dead vibe where you would go through homes when people obviously just vacated it at like a a regular life was happening there and then now there was just no people but the homestore looked lived in his little bit like the house where her June gave birth <hes> but that House that this was worse shape than right because this was obviously like they've been caught just in the middle of living when they whatever happened to them happened to them what assume happen now you wrote the book did did they ever go into any amount of description of like where people like plucked out of their homes like in this case in D._C.. Or would these people have run away or what what would this have been if they would have mentioned it would have been in such passing that it did not standout. It'd be just been called some some terminology that would would have made up but I don't remember her saying anything about it because the handmaid's tale book picks up at the same time as the show basically that June is already in the Red Center and going to be deployed basically and within the book we like. I know we've used up or I believe we've used up all the material from the book yes in the in the seasons we've already had so. There was never any any moments in D._C.. In the book Nope Nope no mention of it or really really specific congress part blowing up Congress there again. The book is just like the show it leaves a lot of the world building up to the imagination of the person engaging with it so much I appreciate it seemed to me like the way that would wrote it. It was more like a it was like a snippet in time which I actually appreciate books like that. I enjoy short stories. I enjoy when you when you leap into someone's life right when something pivotal is going to happen and you kind of explore that journey with them and then you leave them. I don't need birth to death with a character in order to have a fulfilling story line. Do you find it like that like. Do you have to know all the back story of your main character or can you just be like this is where they are at this point in life and like something's about to happen in that's with the story lies. There are stories that I like that are like that game of thrones feels kind of like that in a way like it's so detailed you know there's people that officially know everything there is to know about about West rose or whatever but when you talk to see handmaid's maid's tale <hes> fans nobody knows shit. You know that they know what they know what they've been shown but there's not like a depth of of knowledge or anybody that claims to know a lot more making it all up because it's because what we see is what we get. You know what I mean. I am asking you more as a as a reader or as an audience of stories. Do you prefer when they give you the full gauge like birth to death of your character or is it okay to just jump in where their story got. Bananas is and where like sort of that's the story author wants to tell the story of this chapter of their life and you don't necessarily get all the beginning and all the are you okay with that or do you prefer stories that give you all the back story on both sides. I'm going to say that I prefer for thicker backstories like you don't need to start there but if you say a few sentences along the way that like fills in some of those blanks like group in Florida whatever whatever will be wind Kanobi says I once fought in the clone wars and ban. That's like spinning your in your your brain cogs like thinking a winter clone wars and now what do you mean you were general and all that kind of stuff. It's like that's the kind of stuff that I that I really do like I appreciate that so for me. I feel like there's a lot of this book that very much relied on the idea of just jumping in at one point and the in the timeline of events. I don't know if everybody can handle that unloved short stories. I love it when you jump in the lottery. You know you just jump in your you're right there. It's the day of the lottery. You know you're doing it. You're choosing you know it's happening and then it happens and then that's it and you don't go back to those characters. You don't see them again. Whatever I I have a lot of love for those I think because my own imagination is pretty active and so I can fill in or or actually enjoy filling in a lot of the back story when it comes to TV I do feel differently? I do feel like certain relationships have to feel earned to me as opposed to just jumping in and being told these to love each other of these to hate each each other. I got to know why I got no more. I don't know if that's a difference between books and TV the same age and they're in town together. Yeah like I don't know like when it comes to TV. I really feel like I hold the writers more accountable than I do. Maybe because I don't know there's not such a thing as really necessarily as a short story show that we watch movies are basically like short stories compared to T._v.. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're right although God they're still hold accountable. You gotTa have flashbacks and all that but you're right. You're no you're right. I mean look we don't expect to go to the grave with John. Wick on the first steps. You know like no I mean you're going to you're going to know his story that what is important about it right then in that particular to our move but you're not gonNA know all the eventually of his whole life to your right so maybe it so T._v.'s unique right now that we really hold them more accountable for wanting to have this massive amount of understanding of every character. Do you think there is a show out there or that we take as like a short story like other ones that ever leave it alone at that like just a couple of episodes zone besides the twilight zone theology shows. That's kind of like cheating yeah. I kind of thing anthology shows are kind of cheating. I'm talking about like it seems like in this day and age even they have like a one season like dead to meet to me could just leave it at that. Leave it at ten episodes walkaway be done. You told one slice alive story part you got enough of the backstory on either side and walkaway but is other doing season two so I'm like. Does anybody ever leave. Let alone anymore where you can just have a good story looks pretty guilty of that the chart how good bloodlines was oh. My God perfect example like the first season is like a ten and then the second season's it's kind of like a six and then the third season's like to Oh God the third season felt like why why but the did the same thing with thirteen reasons why yeah good call. That's another really good example of like you have a one particular moment in time and what these children were going through. You know it's like Bam capsulated done. What do you think is it just money driven? I mean does things like toy story. Four just make your eyebrow go like four is like really the jury's still out for me on big little lies season two since that's still in process I mean it's got the potential to to be trying. It's gotTa be good but still the true detective season's Kinda like you're talking about like season one. When people really liked season to the change the character's people really don't like us? He's in three. They're back to liking it. Would you consider I was GONNA say maybe American horror story is a little bit Bam. You get one story one set of episodes. That's going to cover one storyline fine. We're not going to go. We're not going back to we're not going to end like this. One chunk through and that's kind of all you get I again. I'm going to asking our listeners like for you guys and I do feel like the media matters like if it's a movie obviously all all of us can handle it. We are kind of accustomed now to movies being like one chapter of the larger story. We actually expect that. Can people handle it when it's not when there's not a part two when there's not a prequel when there's not a you know all the crap that's supposed to give you all these detailed things that fan fiction action. Whoever can we ever just have a story anymore? That's like no you you. Just get this whole you get. We're not going to give you like any of the other characters info is that okay can we can any of US handle that we enjoy that for what it is but let's get into a person's story. We don't know nothing about not. Who's WHO's the previous owners of this House that Serena's people on a herd? They're baptists yeah. That's the only little nugget we got the we did see their family photo who you know I bet if we looked real hard at that family photo and I encourage everyone to go back and look at this episode again. I didn't look at the children's faces is very hard but if you people real hard at those kids faces there's some shot we may have seen them Gilead boy. That'd be pretty tough. I would have a hard time recognizing them but it'd be five years later for most of them or more more than that so yeah. That would be pretty rough but I I just wondered especially because they bothered putting the babies named phoebe up on the wall. I wondered if later on we see a baby phoebe or not a baby. Obviously this could be like ten but if there's like a ten year old name Phoebe that looks somewhat like the kid in the fixture something I just wondered if it would conjure up anything wiki pulse giving me this heavy eyelid like caroline. You're talking about bullshit face right now. What do you think is going through Serena's minds in this house? Is She digging it or she like. This is creepy Shit Dude. I kind of think that she's got different percentages going on. I think some part of her is looking at it like the bones of the house like well. You know this has like. She said this has great light. I like sort of the layout those types of things right. I think there is that other part of her that the way that the home uh-huh has been left so untouched. It's not that it needs to be renovated. It's that I mean the previous owners underwears in the drawer like I mean there's there's like that Boogie on any level right like any. It's GONNA be creeped out by that but then the way that she lingered lingered around the baby crib I felt all kinds of mixed feelings about that like there was a baby that lived in this house. There was a family that lived in this house but then also I wanna be I wanna be be crib and can they just leave this cooperate here. This seems like a good spot for Nicole. A cold live in. I don't know I think I think she's just remained. This twisted character for me right now. I believe she's also mixed. One of the things that's making her. Come around to Fred is that he is proving to be super capable in what what he's doing right now. It's one thing to see your husband. Kinda get basically really screwed up in his in his last kind of few months where he's messing around the handmade and things get out of control everything he touches turns to Shit Shit a good long while right and then all of a sudden he's making these videos and everything's kind of falling into place in the man in charge says I like the cut of your Jib and I think that those things are like propping up Fred in her mind. This reminds me of just renewed. I'm just saying that I don't mean to interrupt you. Reminded me of of the firm when Tom Cruise and his wife like moving to really Nice House first and then spoiler. I'm sorry the firms really olds have seen it. I Apologize. Please fast forward me like two or three minutes. Okay this. This is your warning the whole idea of like I there's some sense of making it like we're making it right. We're doing our we're finally being successful but then it's like there's always that little e that edginess of like I think something else is going going on here. I feel uncomfortable about this and I think Serena like retains that from the get go here where she like already knows the Fred is capable of being this really weak. Fuck up you know and already has this like e itchiness and like they're coming in on this house where it's like you're GonNa have to you have to actually see the carnage of the people before you you know in a way that that's so much more traumatic obviously but it really has that lake. The House is going to be bugged kind of feeling. You know that kind of like your life isn't your own. You're going to be a part of this larger DC group which they meet at these at these dinner that they're going to go to and there's this this that even reminded me of the wife in the firm going to like other lawyer events and that sort of like oh like everybody. Everybody knows that your soul is owned by the firm Been Dini Lambert and Locke is Paul Collection. I wonder if it's an intentional thread that they're putting into these episodes where they are peeling back the facade of Gilead and exposing like it's like a Disney world when you look behind the mountain and you just see like the beams and shit holding up the mountain and how it's like well. That's not a mountain that's just beams holding up a mountain well beams holding up up like sprayed-on <unk> night right on like chicken wire frame exactly a couple of week couple weeks ago we got to see Lydia beat the shit out of Janine in front of everybody kind of pulling back the mountain a little bit in so showing wing in front of everybody what goes on to keep the handmaid's so subservient beatings yeah they don't WanNa know that so this is another thing where we've got in your face basically a corpse of a house yeah and the corpse of a family right of course of a family and that is in her face to try to reconcile if this gilead life she's fighting Sioux or to get baby Nicole back from Canada to do have to live through it is interesting to me that has like no issue stepping over like baby shoes and other family's belongings and stuff like sheep and like is just so casual about the whole thing it it really gives you the Hebrew jobs and allows you to know where Olivia's mind is you know like she sees this all the time she she's seen how the sausage is made and she's fine with it. He's good with it head realtor. I always again in this sort of like eyeballing kind of stuff about this. Does it make sense that the wives would make decisions having to do with houses and or walking her like I don't know in this whole world of women are less than in women. Men are are are subject to classes it. Just it makes me feel like why would a live show her around I mean it seems like there would be a male person in charge of them. They're not buying the house. I wasn't talking about that. I'm talking about the freedom that these women would have in such a strict society or their wives though actually fly with MARV skit to China. I think there are places. They don't get to Joe but yeah I mean they go on walks. They go and plentiful walks God. They can walk her little women's Wow I. I didn't think that I don't know I mean obviously the windows are high up so Olivia having keys to another home and his okay fine fine. I guess sure okay. Let's talk about the windows for a second. We've George and Fred having that little meeting now. I was dismayed to hear that Canada is like willing to talk. I was like Ugh but I mean I saw this coming. Why are you surprised at this concept except that keeping the baby in Canada actually provides them a whole lot of leverage the leverage that I envisioned that taking the form of to me is the longer the Canada is perceived as hanging on into this baby by the world community the worse it gets for them? You know there might be other countries that are like what she skipped back the baby already you know that sort of attitude in wherever it is the diplomats meet in this post America <hes> <hes> version of the world. I don't know if the United Nation is still thing or not but I didn't see it coming that winslow would would use the baby like that. I thought they were all on board for getting the baby back. I don't know that I saw <hes> Fred being opened to the baby being leverage. I thought that he actually cared a little bit about getting the baby back for Serena and cared about this in some way so then when he was totally like yeah that makes sense he's so just his ego is grown further than his love for Serena Yeah so let's also had that like uncomfortable moment again where I felt like George was way too much in Fred's personal space grabbing him by the elbow pulling Amen. I know that that's over a business deal kind of mafia but it's just seems so inappropriate like it just seemed like again. I don't know if this is dominating man or something. More I don't know is every interaction going to include touching and being in each other's faces. The only reason I would stand that close to another man like that is if we were like a party and I needed to hear what he had to say. Hey you lean forward to like listen in right yeah a little bit what he was saying wasn't for public consumption. He wasn't like hey everybody. Let's let's lose a baby for leverage. It wasn't crowded either right right and they didn't have to talk right there in the hallway. You know a bunch of stuff but there's something about George that is Gimme the Heeb's in terms of just like I just don't quite know what his angle is. I am predicting some sort of dominating seen over Fred Sexually. I am seeing that coming. I don't know why I'm seeing that coming. I don't know if I've a deranged brain but that's what I see happening like some sort of I don't know like proof of allegiance or something something bizarre some fraternity hazing esque grossness and I haven't seen further than this you guys I have no idea but doesn't that fly in these group of like man commander like team America when he says I won't won't be able to trust you until you suck my cock. Wow Wow fred may or may not be keen on sucking big Georgia's cuck but it looks like he's Angling for little action of his own given the way he handles himself itself dinner. We have Serena and Fred head out to this dinner. Dancing Drinks Suare if you will. What was your read on this entire thing for me? It was just opulence luxuries so much they have so much in D._C.. When we know they're like rationing elsewhere and if you think just over to the to the old neighborhood you know there wasn't enough stuff on the shelves really and then pass that you know going out to Serena's mom's house with their even have less they could not have have more remember the <hes> was the second or third hunger games where they go to the capital and whenever they do <hes> they weren't into the people that that take a certain kind of medicine that helps ops them throw up so that they can eat more of the opulent food? That's available at the ball yeah. This has that vibe. Wouldn't you say it's got a real. Throw up medicine vibe the first thing I. And not being being a Gal who cares about Fashion Macaque Mace Nice. I didn't know if you're saying caulk or EPA CAC there but okay anyways so the women's dresses low way that they actually tried to take the wives stresses and do like like different styles with them or there were some backless. I know there is so sue Wright the chatter amongst the women was not unlike charter you might hear at any gathering of Gals in that they were being very <music> Sassy and this was quite unexpected to me and apparently to Serena because they're actually having this conversation that was like ogling the waiters we think about this I mean is it like we've never shown the wives to be like sexual creatures yeah it was like the tedious but with Serena but like that's it. I really overlooked this scene the way your king into it. I just feel like that. Serena did like a double. Take with them the smile I don't know what to say because the entire point is to be so subservient to your husband's to be like so like he's your master. You're like his his little like property. The idea that you have sexuality that you have desires beyond him that you're looking around or that you would even populate really a party with men Ogle. I mean that's kind of outside their culture P in such strict part of their world. You know right where they're bringing. Women's mouths closed right exactly so that that caught me off guard in the dancing I mean Fred comes in like he's never seen her before which was super weird because they had drinks prior and had walked down the hall together but then he looks like is that Serena she came to the day it was like wait you brought her to the dance Douche and you're like just in a hallway with her super odd right. Let's let's put a little pin in it for a second and jump back to that drink scenes okay and having drinks the baby leveraged crap actually gets brought up I so rina because she's smarter than him so much smarter than she sees. The value in what George is talking about without even knowing that George is talking about it but he just might she gets how things work were. You surprised at all that Fred went back to his. I'm the Commander Commander and all that you know what you're supposed to know see. I thought it was actually more interesting than that and actually I was Kinda thinking like I should talk like Fred sometimes like if I don't WanNa talk about something I should say preemptively if I could see the conversations heading down a road where where someone's going to ask me something I should say please. Don't ask me about X. Y.. Z. Because that's not something I can possibly comment on at this time France smart to be proactive like that as opposed to wait until the obvious question is thrust upon you and then you have to like tap dance totally bortles gonNA use this like in the future and be like and I know you're GonNa ask me when those time sheets are going to be done but please don't make me comment on that at this time. I'm just I'm just throwing it out there. Don't even I kinda like that. It's like it's it is a controlling tactic in a conversation that and I've not used before. I'll try to work sometimes. Don't try it on me. I must see right through milic. Fuck you and your don't don't ask me to call him asking I wouldn't dream Okay so speaking of something else. You wouldn't dream to do mating that's for sure boy. This scene felt surreal. I wonder if it was surreal. The way that they had every I mean every extra on that set looking at them as they danced even though they started out pretty Oh bok stepping it mundane dancing but they still had quite a bit of is on them then it's because then they went to that more passionate dance you think it's because everybody knows their business and they're not not together even check out the shit fron share finally finally making man's like summer camp. No it's reminded me of Greece and they started punching in the army. Check it out reason connective totally made up like that punch on the arm like the gang's back together Total Kentucky. He's no Keke Comiskey Euro Monster John Oliver yes Kennedy Haddish. She's okay well anyway so I think maybe it was supposed supposed to feel surreal. I don't know how much of it like is re was actually happening. Maybe just a couple of is around them really but it just felt like we were supposed to be swept up in the moment with them right somehow they were rekindling in some way there were finding some old connections there yeah and that's where the surrealness like you mentioned. Was it all the is or did you just feel like all the economy I'm going with. It felt like everyone was watching them but maybe that wasn't what was really happening. Especially when I was like I mean I have very veselin on the Lens Kinda Feel L. to it. This may be a completely baseless comment because I mean I could just look it up right now. Don't don't ask me questions about a baseless. I can't handle that right now but so much of the look of this season's cinematography talk the way that the the director of photography set up the camera to use lighting and practical lighting and and especially like the lighting that spills in from outside and all that create lens flares and all that I still remember it being thanks so prevalent in previous seasons well. They were typically in the Waterford House which was so dark. You know I mean I wouldn't say that like the majority of season one really even season two is played out in their home where everything was very dark and then even when they were moving around like going to Nick's apartment or hated that everything was being in like the the the dead of night you know so this is like the first season that I would say a lot of things are happening. Sort of a WANNA say more out in the open and definitely more this erronous this lightness wow I'm looking and they do reuse the same directors of photography over and over again like for instance. I'm taking a gun in Collin Watkinson who shot some of second season so first season and some of third season including night and Mary and Martha so maybe he's part of it. Maybe he's part of establishing this new. Look the the Lens flare filled look. You know what I'm talking about right exactly what you're talking about. It's that like yes. It's super surreal. It's that sort of like the sunshine in my eyes Hazy Yeah. I know what you're doing shots that wasn't there in previous episodes so yeah that's deliberateness ordinance <hes> mostly to meet something around Serena though I think it's always wrapped up in her the meaning of color is a freshness or enlightenment or loyalty <hes> but it also represents cowardice and deceit all that works all the joy is all those words all those words so I don't know I think that our our last week's prediction about the Waterford tend to Washington D._C.. I think we at least see some steps steps going in that direction and if they don't decide to do this I feel like it's going to be because of these moments that we are now seeing right this moment the he'd be GBS about a house that still has the air of death of another family in it the cackling of the wives about you know staring the other men's butts and stuff the all these moments. I was the baby being used for leverage like there's a lot of little tiny drops that are being placed here that should give Serena joy a moment pause about like. Is this what you want to be doing here. Is this doesn't isn't really fall under you know what you thought it would be like. You have a lot of struggle there. It's a lot of ignoring of things in order to be okay with. What's going to happen moving forward? Let's head back to the old hood and we're going to talk about June and man this felt like a season one episode to to me we were back to the grind of the handmaid's life so we had that like quintessential like going with your partner to the grocery store and she's dealing with of Matthew again and dealing with her but I've really appreciated that the other handmaid's again they're like really working together more and they worked of Matthew away from gene so that she can go Chitchat with Hannah's Martha Agnes Martha right. Did you notice like how many like dairy freezers they had to open up in order to have their conversations like six to like moving down the dairy freezer like like <hes> lockers empty. That was the weird thing at least from our point of view or like mostly empty not sure yeah that was yeah it's convoluted but it just reminded me of <hes> you can't do that on television with lockers a little bit you know but the creepiest part of the grocery store to me was that they made mention of that to Vail's came into town that week in that house with those clasped faces which means that to handmaid's other moved in that have rings or two people that already lived there got rings in their mouths. That's like very looming for June. Paul vary looming it's like when you live in a certain part of the world and you see the first kind of of a bird that signals the change of the season right okay Robin redbreasts if you will spring his ear or winter's here one of those crimes yeah sure okay well. It creeps to me out because it means that this is how you guys I do not see June not having this happen I I really don't she so outspoken and she is so like willing to do things that are so against rules. I just like I do not see her. Avoiding this and it's GonNa be a horrible. How are we going to have main character rings or at least we're going to get really close? We might get all the way to being strapped down. You know before something happens before maybe aunt Lydia wigs out and saves her and I just see it coming. She did get some information from that Martha though about where Hannah's is located the Guardian that she can talk to Parker. Did you think that she was going to try to enlist Mrs Lawrence or did you think another more authority. Do you think another handmade to try to go on this walk to the school. Believe <hes> Ms Lawrence was the last resort resort because if you recall she tried enlisting camouflage Martha and the other Martha was like new not me and it was funny because she's like I need to see my daughter. She's like yeah. I really don't feel like going out today or whatever like skin. Oh I don't feel like walking. I mean it is weird in terms of like why would they have the ability the freedom to go for a walk to the school. It's almost like you had to have Mrs Lawrence. It doesn't make any sense that Martha would be able to walk with artists. I know it doesn't make any sense sense so even if the more that was agreeable. I don't know why they would have done that. However they end up with this walk with Mrs Lawrence and I thought this was really interesting? We got a lot of insight on Mrs Lawrence First of all the chickens filterless the are you mean the exchange with the baby well leming exchange with Ms Belmont Yeah Yeah Yeah that's uncomfortable when when you start talking about I'm glad you're not dead to the baby so uncomfortable and I honestly I thought okay. How long is this going to actually last fiscal it twice well or like are they gonNA have to like? She can have the sense to have to stop this walk. You know like how long is this going to last but now June doesn't she just decides she's going to persevere which okay that gives us an opportunity to find out a little bit more about the Lawrence's turns out they don't. I don't have any kids but Mrs Lawrence wanted to try but she's on bi polar medication and what it sounded like to me is that they had tried a lot of different dosing with her and my guess is that in order to have kids or even try. You probably would have to come off your medication. Mr Lawrence was not willing to even consider that which I get that that makes sense and I'm guessing Gilead without proper medical care. That's why we're dealing with so much of what she's going through where she just needs to stay on a hidden away. You mean yeah because I don't I I think I mean she's alluding to the idea that she needed constant adjustments in her medications depending on what was going on with her and so if that's the case I mean there. She's not getting any that type of medical care. So certainly I mean that's got away on Lawrence. You know like think think about it like this. We were kind of coming out from what if she was already having dementia or some sort of mental illness and now he's using Gilead as like some sort of Petri dish to figure it out right what if it's this one of her bipolar disorder was being handled successfully successfully and now that there's Gilead and there's not this <hes> medical community to help her. She's been deteriorating and so now he's working off of a place of guilt not of a place of trying to save her but more of a place of like he knows she's deteriorating any knows. It's the way way that this culture has been set up. That's part of the reason or the reason <hes> he's done more work to keep things the way they are than than his one action of releasing emily though I do feel like regardless of what Mrs Lawrence's actual actual health status is June was bulled or stupid to be so frank about what this walk was about. I don't know that telling someone who is is somewhat disoriented at times something that is a big secret to you like I want to go see my daughter. Blah Blah Blah I it feels like in my heart like you never really had to admit that to her you know and in fact it's like it's it's it's handing over powerful information to somebody who doesn't she has no not even not not not a reason to keep a secret for you but she doesn't even know it's a secret you know she's not going to handle that with any care. June seems to be blinded by the short term gain of maybe being able to see your daughter but by the time they get to the place I mean it looks a lot more like a minimum security prison. You know like super tall tales like not even like fence but walls like very tall which let me ask you this. Do you think that Hannah's China's Martha knew what the school looked like so then telling Juna go there because they play outside at a certain time knowing that the walls are feet thick not see through what what was this never seen Hannah show Oh dumb I mean given the way that things wind up for that Martha and then ask us to be all that she was ever going to get out of the way back up a little bit. You said so dumb but but I'm confused I mean if that Martha knew knew very well. She could never see Hannah. Why did she send her there? What was the point was it that she was going to see? If she saw Guardian Parker Parker would have let her in. How is she going to go in a noticed as a handmade a what was supposed to happen weapon? I mean I'm you've been missing what was supposed to transpire. That's true a handmade would have zero reason to go to elementary school like it would be suspicious one hundred percent of the time I guess if she was dressed as a Martha maybe the Martha's were allowed to pick up kids from school. I know but but didn't know how she was going to go on. Show up there but it just I don't know I'm just really shaking my head because it seems like one of those things that's like as soon as Parker wasn't there. They should have left left additionally. What was the point of going there if the if the Martha knew very well there was no way that June was ever Gonna be able to actually see <unk> when she said you could see them? Playing I envisioned like a chain link fence wrought iron fence something where you you could see through never occurred to me that it would be like a stucco kind of wall that like or cement wall or something that you can't. You can't see the children puzzling to say the least. It only made me wonder if she didn't mind if Jim got caught she. She didn't mind like that was fine. Let her get in trouble. I thought about that then inevitably she'd be questioned and then none of it really makes this was a really flimsy strange plan it was all odd and what she actually got out of it the whole like just putting your hand on the wall and just feeling the children's voices I mean I don't know you guys it. It makes me think back to her conversation with Serena saying going to go see the baby is not not going to help like it's like she had she has the understanding that going and having these little snippets with a child is not going to make you feel better so unless she had an actual plan to execute of actually getting out right then like how to get away car had how to change of clothes how to hold plan. I don't know why she would endure even the thought of just going for a glimpse when she was very easy to understand what Serena had getting a glimpse of your babies only GonNa make you more upset Serena so then what the heck blinded by motherhood a as a as a father that feels like if I if I saw the wall surrounding the entire by the way from like half a mile away like you wouldn't have to walk all the way up to the gates to be like there's a wall and then we find out that Parker is not on duty see you adjust leave another frigging day. I gotta come back when Parker's here another frigate 'cause they actually have no plan but now nor the school is now. I know how long it took to walk here now. I mean you know you got some some usable Intel. Oh Serena gives me piece of Shit tidbits on on my kid. Yeah Serena told me about the the idea of this is remember the if if I if there was a certain kid in this area than they understand why you don't do this is the school. I think it's the school but I think this is. Representative of schools. In June wouldn't have known that Serena I think might have these secured locations see through through. It was like false awesome formation a tease like yeah. She's in there. I mean it's a completely black box but yeah sure she's in there. Wow Super Weird so that whole thing I mean it ruined a lot of things because now Mrs Lawrence tries to be helpful all but it completely falls apart. She's in shambles. June has to get her home and asked to deliver her back to Commander Lawrence who is beyond pissed. What do you think about her interaction with Joseph when they get home for a second and I thought I thought he might lose it? I totally thought the way that she I see we both thought she was kneeling at the top of the stairs sitting on it she was sitting there only matters a little bit but if you're a kneeling you could fall forward and for some reason I just had this imagery of him kicking her in in the back and her like falling down the stairs getting hurt. That's all I thought in my head not not even pushing her with his hands but kicking her like day away from Yeah Very Sparta Ish like stay away from my wife like already told you to stay away from my wife told you not talk about my wife and you took her outside the house in fact we had the conversation about what happens to in May two opens the front door and you frigging took my wife out there. Who you know is sick and confused is reaction seemed more like like we've been saying all along the disappointed teacher elva dude? No I think calculating. I think there's going to be punishment. We just haven't seen it yet. I do not think he walked away like I'm disappointed in you the end I think he's like I'm GonNa go think about what's going to happen to you now. It's if you think I'm gonNA pull his wife. Life was the one thing asked you leave him alone. It was the one little vulnerable spots the one button you don't push that button and she walked right up there and took the button snatched it and took it outside and got it all wigged out fucking fucking baby groot she is. She's down anyway so I mean do I think she deserves what's going to happen. No I'm scared. I don't want what's going to happen to her to. I think it's going to be terrible you high frigging. Do I don't see how Lawrence doesn't retaliate ah the I'm the big man humiliating you in front of the other big man business like he did in the parlour that the one time this is his wife. This just feels different. I don't know it's my own prediction but it feels bad. It feels like you did the one thing he asked you not to do. In his household household got one job talk about another job however okay well we we before I want. She also did one thing too. She yelled at him about his wife. You should have seen our share came. Alive like totally like didn't even just let it lie when he walked away in silence she had had the last word show. Is there no sense of self preservation anymore. Here's the answer no she doesn't have any and here's why because now let's start talking welcome back at what we were talking about the very beginning which is hangings artistic utions stonings. Let's get into that. Why are we starting to lose our sense of self preservation? We're starting to see more of the medieval stuff that was present an in season one where the handmaid's have to somehow be apart of the execution portion of their judicial system it and I think it has to do with people that have made you'd have committed crimes against women and children and that's that is who the handmaid's get to enforce the law against I don't think I don't think they're getting shoplifters and shit like that. If you remember correctly and this was more more from the book we weren't getting this from the show. It was that rapist people who hurt children. These are the people that handmaid's were part of executing military and in the book wasn't more stonings it was stonings yeah so in in some way the whole concept of clearing out the rotten fruit that of Matthew says you Kinda get right that somehow especially if it was if it was against children. The handmaid's do everything there. Her life is based on bringing children in the world. If you did something to heard a child these women would be enraged right so it could be coming from an actual visceral true place being so angry or or rape of a woman to be able to act that out immed- so angry that this person did this. You could see where that could come from in in the book and in the first movie that is that is probably when the women actually kind of come on hinged right and I mean that's something that Lawrence actually kind of mentions you know the you have to let people blow off steam and that that was something that we talked about <hes> and I don't remember if his book related if it was show related but it was this concept that when you are you are so clamped down upon and you live such a rigid lifestyle every once in a while you have to give this opportunity to kind of go beserk so that you can Kinda WanNa get all your energy out. You know just sort of feel like you could like you said come unhinged and just kind of get it all out of your system like the Amish in the year. They send springer rate. That sounds right. I mean it's made up sounding word. That sounds right so yeah I mean yeah because if you're gonNA live a very strict lifestyle there has to be some sense of relief right at some point in time. It's why Jesuit bills exists. That's what they told themselves yes so they show them actually doing these hangings in and it begins our show when it ends is our show this episode the whole concept of pulling the rope and stuff now again since now. We've given you some context if you didn't know from the book or if you or he didn't remember from the first season's these were supposed to be crimes against women and children so the concept of the handmaid's. Meets participating seemed really gruesome to see that but if you remembered the sort of way that the society was set up am not saying it's great to see but it certainly more understandable why they were a part of it although they don't even know like in the first one they just kinda got a rumor one of the people that they had hanged had mistreated a child in some way I don't remember the exact details but it wasn't like that killed a child who's just some sort of and they didn't stand up there and said this person's a rapist and this person heard a child and they go down the line so we don't really know what anybody did. I mean I think that that's part of it too. Though it's not like this is a true justice system I mean could just be a rumor that someone hurt a kid or you know what I mean Yeah Very S._S.. Secret police got like you don't need to know why you're doing this anyway. I feel like the other reason why handmaid's are part of it like that. It makes them part of this system in a way that like guilt and s makes me think of this. It's like if you got your hands dirty to feel like you're a lot less apt apt to turn other people in because you're sort of implicating yourself if you're forced upon doing an execution though though like we saw with the Swiss interrogations you can try to defend yourself in some white but at the end of the day they can still be like so you killed someone and it's like Oh. I am a bad person right so now you're you're sort of wrapped up in it. It's a psychological device that they use right in order to make you feel like you're in this too same sort of thing member in better call Saul remember. What's the guy's name urban trout? Okay remember Mike Remember. He had this weird relationship with his daughter in law in they explain that it's because Mike was a dirty cop and that her husband was a cop also who had died in the line of duty right and it all got went back to that Mike was dirty cop and his son his son found out about all the dirty calmness and he wouldn't take the money like you're saying that he wouldn't make himself complicit. Is it so they kill them. If I remember correctly it's the same kind of concept to use it in in other applications but it's if you're party to this thing then if you put you are you're in right if you if you have a stake in it now all of a sudden you <unk> are as interested in protecting the system as anybody else exactly right and so and I mean it honestly guess what good girls same like. It's the same kind of thing where that's what Rio does a lot where he tries to make Rehab more stake in the game so that she she is not apt <unk> turn because she's done her own crimes. You know there's there's it becomes like a the list becomes more even and it's even though as the as the handmade you can obviously say I was forced to do those people who are not in there. It's like the wife was wailing and saying like you don't understand the circumstances of why she would run someone over if you're on the outside it's like I just you know. At what point would I ever be pushed to stab someone up there saying everybody has to hold the rope probably doesn't it certainly doesn't take that many people to pull those pull that I'm sure I'm sure there's other ways they could've made that mechanism where a couple people could have done it but salons. You're holding the rope. You're equally responsible for those people's deaths. That's what they a tells them yes so now we get to that last book and hanging rights. It's of course Hannah's Martha that's up there and it's awful you know she sees her. They do a lot of camera work about getting right up in the woman's phase. She's this. She's crying. She's got like you know our noses running. She's she's I mean they. They did a great job. That actress did a great job of portraying the fear that you would honestly feel in that moment I thought June's face however was was interesting and now what we've talked through about what she found at the school I maybe I understand it. Better June's face was not terribly remorseful. No it was very stony having just talked about together June when all all the way out there the walls were not you couldn't see through them so the Martha's information. I guess is what I'm trying to say is like she got found out and it all got everyone in trouble but like at the end of the day the information was bad so now killing her like I don't. There's something about her like she'll just like set her jaw like an enemy and of course worse than that. The McKenzie's are now not in the same neighborhood anymore. We don't know how far away they went. My Guess Is D._C.. But because that's where I think we're all heading but really think about that she her jaw was set in such a way that she was she was angry. She picked up that rope with leg well lady you did this to yourself you give me shit information and because we were talking you got found out and Blah Blah Blah in now. You're being hung and I have to be a part of it. Let's it's all do our part like you. Were dancing the part just as much as I was as she seems so resigned by I didn't get it the first time until we talked about the fact that the school is so fruitless and then it's like that's why she is acting like that. When it goes to hang the Martha she's just so angry at how dumb this entire adventure to go to the school really was? When did it come out at the McKenzie's were not to be found was just know right when that Martha was walking up there they said hey did you hear the the McKenzie's are gone and then when the woman starts walking across the stage there that's when all is went up and that's when she realized that's the that's the Martha that was a realization that was like Oh dare and there she is there could be lots of thoughts in there like it's the McKenzie's ago on then Hannah Slash Agnes gone if they're gone in the Martha's here than than the Martha not only screwed me but may have screwed the whole thing or or something definitely I mean definitely finale yeah like she did something more like maybe she tipped off the McKenzie's and told him to go and then you know she the fact that she was even speaking with June like I I mean there's a bunch of stuff here but obviously really really no matter what exactly happen? The entire thing was for nothing and June's like you wasted my time and you just made me get like two more XS on my leg bad list of like now. I'm probably GONNA get in so much more trouble. She was fine with killing her. I I thought it was more like at this fucking in place Kinda Kinda thing like just couldn't get out of it too I couldn't I couldn't put my finger on it of like why is she looked so like you're getting what come into you. You know just that it's like that. It's that <hes> mobster like set your jaw like uh-huh you. It's not your not your name like showing your anger so much as it's just like well. It is what it is now done yeah like you. This is what's going to happen now. You know the system you knew the rules and this all play out you know so speaking of who knew the rules and how things are going to play out of love you. We're GONNA end with you. <hes> this woman has just been a thorn in June side from day one with all for little SASS mouth. It's ironic to me that at the people who can do the most damage to the cattle prods the being locked in your room and everything is so small compared to the the actual pain of these tiny comments that of Matthew does like those who is from within your own group of people who are also being held down feel more painful and do more harm and rile June up more than being thrashed her feet more than being kept in a cage when she was pregnant more than all those things as this woman's constant constant need to be like Parental D of Rabbani that makes you are the worst you're the thing that makes me go over the edge the hardest and boy did she go over the edge. It's our fault. She told response was I thought gyms who's GonNa kill her. I thought June was going to toss her over the edge buster head in something the handmaid's created this cool little wall sorta like it so smooth like recess where like fight fight fight and smoother than that because they turn their backs into the situation and looked out like century watch ads even cooler than just like gathering. Did you think you should go all the way did I thought I thought she was going to kill her and I thought that the rest of the group was going to be like she joked like exist somehow back June and act like <hes>. I can't believe she just felt like that. That was so crazy the the only thing that would have messed that whole thing up is if they found out that she was pregnant which I don't know she'd told yet but but that would have been like because. She said that the doctor said that her morning sickness was normal normal okay so that'd be a much bigger deal is but jumping jumping and certainly handmaid's have been crazy so I don't know but I think that they would have covered for her. Had June decided to just push. She was choking her when she could've just pushed her. You know what I mean she was. She was actually actually just choking. Her TRICIA. Just wanted to scare but this isn't gonNA work out. I mean what's going to happen. I'M NOT GONNA go right. I mean what the fallout at this point thing of all the different things think of the fact that she's implicated in the death after the Martha Hannah be now gone. The Lawrence's are waiting for the other shoe to drop with Mr Lawrence. He's not GonNa let this guy. He's going to punish her in some way and then now she's been shokhin out another handmade who's pregnant. I mean Oh my God Paul. Put All these pieces together. What kind of punishment are we looking at an episode eight for this season probably nothing since June is bulletproof festival? You guys stressful on that front. I mean I didn't I get no pleasure out of this woman getting punished at all I I certainly don't but if you give the premise of the show and you give that this is what's going to have to happen in society like this. Oh my gosh. She has got so many strikes against her. How does she wiggle out of this? I don't know do you have any predictions at all. They just don't punisher. Will that's awful well. Here's here's what I've heard. I have heard rumors that episode eight is going to be amazing because we are finally going to get some backstory on aunt. Lydia and I am so excited about that. Endowed is by far one of my favorite characters we loved her from the leftovers and we are so excited to get to finally know what in the world would have brought aunt Lydia to this place in her life and I am so jazz my bet is she ran something like a girl school or a dorm dorm or something where she was in charge of girls. What do you think I don't know it could be something so much less than that? I have this background with leftovers with her. That just makes me feel like it could be so much more basic. I mean she could would be like a dental hygienist and like she's just like as long as I help one person's so like I feel like she's going to end up having a very menial job she can be like the person who takes the coins at the toll booth. I don't think she's going to have been in power at all. I don't think that I don't think that's the way it works. You know and I don't think that they put people who are actually powerful in powerful positions. I think that the you know sounds right. It's because he's the people that overthrew power because they didn't have any power okay all right something stranger with former Mrs Garrett Carolina's going with refrigerator saleswoman something I agree that she could be an caretaking facet but something far more like like I said badly dental hygienist or something or just somebody who thinks they're doing something helpful everyday but ultimately could be replaced by anybody or anything like doesn't really have any big power. Thanks for listening. Catch us on Itunes or your.

Serena Emily Moro Gilead Fred George Canada Nicole Martha Agnes Martha John Oliver Mrs Lawrence America America caroline D._C Waterford daily review Gay Community China Hannah
Which is the Best, Destiny Land or Disney Land?

Raising Christian Kids

09:53 min | 3 months ago

Which is the Best, Destiny Land or Disney Land?

"Welcome to raising Christian kids. Your host Leeann Mancini is extremely passionate that children build a strong foundation relationship with Jesus before the age of ten children need head and heart knowledge in order to stand strong against a world's ever increasing rejection of Christianity you will be equipped with methods and techniques to help to solidify a relationship between your child and Jesus. So let's dig deep and help the next generation to love Jesus with all their heart soul in mind. Hello and welcome back to raising Christian kids. Let me ask you a question which is the best Disneyland or destiny land. I remember my children were young their favorite place on earth was Disneyworld living in Florida we could go at least twice sometimes three times a year although it was quite expensive. It is really a magical kingdom. They love to ride the rides at. It's a small world was one of their favorite rides. Joined the whimsical boat ride witnessing a colorful treat to the eyes and the wonderful cores of children singing from around the world it really is a small world. My children also enjoyed eating in Cinderella's castle and watching the main street parade pass by and their favorite thing was to see Minnie mouse and Mickey Mouse Goofy and all the Disney characters. Although we loved going to, Disneyland I, never really thought about the impact Disney Hanna my children. We also read all the Disney books. Disney. DVD's toys, game stuffed animals in fact, I still have packed away somewhere snow white and all seven dwarfs. My children dressed up in the key the character costumes as well. My son loved dress up as buzz light year from toy story, and my daughter loves to dress up as Belle in beauty and the beast. I wish I knew then what knew now that perhaps it really wasn't as innocent as seemed even though we read our Bible stories hardly did I dress them up and biblical character costume such as Joseph and? Mary. Ask, your, child this question. Tell me about whatever their favorite Disney character is. Tell me what you like about same mickey mouse or whomever they choose and why is it your favorite Disney character? Then ask them to tell you about their favourite bill character. What do they know about their favourite biblical character in why do they like them? This will tell you a lot about what is truly influencing their young minds. Also look around their bedroom does it represent more Disneyland or destiny land? Destiny land meaning things that represent a godly kingdom, which is a real kingdom verses an imaginary fantasy land. It may seem harmless after all. It's it's the magic kingdom, but the magic kingdom is no longer wholesome as it once was. Main Street parade was converted into. Magical pride. LGBTQ celebration on June I. Twenty Nineteen. But did you hear the news when Disney's live action production of beauty and the beast featured the company's first game? Moment that Josh Gad's character La Fu is gay and throughout the movies understood that Lefou has a crush on Gaston. Also, frozen to the Gay Community was hoping for Elsa to have a girlfriend not boyfriend. Franklin Graham D- warned that Disney is trying to push the LGBTQ agenda into the hearts and minds of children. Sean. Griffin. Literally wrote the Book On. Gay History of Disney in tinker? Bell's and evil Queens The Walt Disney. Company. From inside out. He states if you read between the lines, you can see Queer narrative from the studio's earliest days. You know searched the Internet. You can find many articles such as focus on the family's Disney moving from entertainment to propaganda this article addresses. Disney's Sitcom on the Disney channel Cyrus. Goodman who came out as gay. Another program my children love was sesame street. This popular PBS show supports pride month on their official social media sites. And earlier this year lgbt activist billy porter worn outrageous dress on the show clearly promoting his gay. Mark Saltzman of former writer for Sesame Street stated in two thousand eighteen that burden Ernie are a couple based upon his own real life homosexual experiences. Remembered the Cartoon Series Arthur I believe it's still showing today my children used to love the show. Well last year, the Internet went crazy when Arthur's teacher Mr rat burn got married to another man on the show. And my little Pony Oh my goodness my daughter used to love to play with my little. Pony. Toys. Friendship is magic and holiday an anti lofty. A lesbian couple became guardians of Scoot Olu while her parents are gone. So what are we to do row out all the Disney toys and characters and don't let your child watch anything Disney. I leave that answer up to you. I will tell you though that you can teach biblical story when watching or reading an old classic called Snow White. One favorite fairy tale is snow white my children especially, we love that story. How can the story be used as a tool to teach about Jesus or the concept of the bride of Christ? Let me read excerpt from my lecture presentation the Bride of Christ based upon the book. Romance. Of Redemption by Warren Gauge which is an excellent book I highly suggest you get this book. That's the Romance of redemption by warring gauge. From, childhood we longed for the love of another. The princess sixes bride, the bride seeks groom. Our childhood fairytales replete of this type of desire. Snow White Eight and took the poison offered from the evil one that brought death. However love always prevails as her prince rescued her from death and took her to his mansion in the two shall have happily ever after. Does this sound familiar. Is this not what Christ did for you They take us too far away kingdoms. We share the dreams of a lovely maiden who waits to be rescued. Just when everything appears to be lost forever, the king's son unexpectedly arrives his kiss breaks an evil spell and he awakens the love of his princess. The handsome Prince carries his beloved to a castle in the clouds and we hear that are newlyweds lived happily ever after. But what do fairy tales have to do with the Christian faith what does fiction tells about the Gospel which is a message grounded in fact. One of the most striking features about fairy tales is they are told in the entire world to all children. Is this children's stories somehow a retelling of the Gospel. Eve Our first mother like the beautiful princess was deceived into eating a poisoned fruit which caused her to fall under a spell death just like Snow White. And they're a heavenly prince who seeks US whispering to us in our most desperate need. I have loved you never lasting love that's Jeremiah thirty, one three. will not the Prince of Peace Jesus Christ one day rescue us and bring us into the Kings. Ivory. Palace of gold and gladness that psalms forty, five, thirteen through fifteen. What is the sacred? The charm of these enchanted stories? Could it be that they capture our imaginations because they tell of a grander story? This is the key they teach us to believe in a happily ever after and our own story, the Gospel which details the pattern of suffering and glory. So. Yes. Let us dress our children up as the Prince of Peace Jesus. Christ who rescues his bride? Instead of painting, Disney characters on your children's bedroom walls paint a picture of the Heavenly Castle in Heaven with Jesus in the center and all the children, the animals around him. Paint heavenly picture that picture will be what they recall in their minds is they grow up. Remember. As you read some of these Disney stories to the children, you can say just like the prince rescued Snow White Jesus rescues us and he will take us to live in his castle forever and ever. And yes teach them that destiny land is better than Disneyland. Because, one of them lasts for all eternity. This podcast is part of the edified podcast network. edify is a faith inspiring APP that brings together. The Best Christian podcasts in one place for your listening enjoyment. Cut through the noise and grow your faith by diving into the world's top Christian podcast today download the edify APP for free from the APP store or Google play or by going to edify dot APP that's E. D. I F. I dot tap.

Disney Snow White Disney Leeann Mancini Florida Disneyworld Minnie Heavenly Castle Franklin Graham Disneyland Mark Saltzman Gay Community US Belle Josh Gad
Vanderpump Rules Scheana Shay Reveals Some of Her Worst Dates Ever (with Scheana Shay)

Bravo TV's Daily Dish

21:34 min | 9 months ago

Vanderpump Rules Scheana Shay Reveals Some of Her Worst Dates Ever (with Scheana Shay)

"Hi I'm Megan Sarah and I'm Eric J man. This is the daily dish. Bravo's official podcast so honor of Bravo's new show blind date where two singles who know nothing about each other paired up and sent off on a blind date. We wanted to share some of our more interesting dating stories. And who better to join us than Sheena Chez All right? We are no longer single. Sheena so we can start there. Have you ever been on a blind date now? Yeah I feel like they're less common now like not know anything about the person right because with like dating apps now you have fifteen pictures to scroll through like. That doesn't really happen. I don't think I've ever been on a proper blind date either. I've actually never even done dating APP. Even when I was single swiped right or left unless it was back. When Jackson was single. I used to take phone. I mean that was like five years ago so that was my only experience ever. Why didn't you do have honestly? The main reason was because I just being on a television show didn't know if those guys wiping right. WanNa get some followers and beyond banner pump roles or if you're genuinely interested in getting to know me so I like to meet people the old fashioned way. That's how I met my boyfriend and there was a one day filmed this season Person that law set me up with but we still met before the day but that was the most like sat up. I think I've really ever been interesting. You said meet the old fashioned way. Do you mean like drunk at a bar. It was a drunk at an after party. But yeah you know just like Emerson through a mutual friend not the Internet and Swiping Riot. And you know but citing the M.'s does work okay. Updating out about we met in person first and then the next day brock's leading the DMZ. We exchanged numbers. Went to a music festival together. The next day he did the dirty dancing. Move with me. Planted a kiss on me on the way down and then together ever since I mean who wouldn't yes little taller stealing absolutely. Yeah become our thing so your first eight was a music festival. What Music Festival was as a boo and San Diego Cool? Yeah did you say who we MUMFORD AND SONS? Got Night and I think it was like one republic. Imagine dragons I get them confused. Yeah is because I saw one one year and one the next year. I don't remember what year was which by we had the Mumford and sons was like our moment was the dirty dancing. Kiss your first kiss. Yes and we have it actually in a video one of my friends was just videotaping if he could do the move with me and then when you put the kiss on after I was like we have our first kiss on camera and show the kids. I know your first date with Aaron. I mean you guys have been together for so long yeah I met whereas nineteen. I don't think it was a proper day in the cafeteria. Yeah what about you and Dan? I ate with Danny was at was called the blind monkey. What is that? Oh brass monkey plays and the big thing was. That's where Bethany Frankel and Kelly Bensimon had. They're like epoch. Like I'm up here. You're down here fight. And so that's when we both realized we were both into housewives and I think we had like some sweet potato fries and it was snowing and it was very romantic. We met at that bar because he was coming from Jersey and I was coming from Queens link that was like a halfway. Yeah it was actually closer for him technically but you were saying right before this interview. You've never had a bad day. I really wasn't a big dater in the single years because the more recent single years I had the show and I just I had such a guard up on any guy so I really didn't go on a lot of dates which is why kind of started hanging out with my best friend in another way because I didn't want to date anyone but on someone But Yeah I cannot think of like a bad date I've ever been on because they really haven't been on that many brock. Watch the show when now now I think the first full episodes saw was the one that airs tonight. I watched it last night And he was on the. I wonder if people who are in the limelight. Get hit on more or less. He had no idea who I was when he met me. And then it was funny because his sister in Australia saw him and I on one of his friends instagram stories. A message was like what are you doing machine? And he's like wait. Why people keep taking pictures at this girl. He's like no idea who she was. Followers influence or girl just made me even so much more interested in him because we made a genuine connection just two people meeting at two. Am At an after party and just had a real connection. When did he sort of realize the scope of what it meant to be on vendor pump roles? It was the one he was looking at the Cleveland Browns instagram and realize we have the same amount of followers and he was like. Oh my God Babe Yours famous as the Cleveland. Browns like he was so it was like. You're like somewhat argue. Yeah that was like a moment for him where he was just like. Whoa what do you? What are your thoughts on a guy asking for permission before Kissing I'm not against that. I mean I think if you're feeling it just kind of go for it and you can probably read the other person's energy by. I don't think it's weird to ask me now. Let's play feel. It's riskier though because I would feel more comfortable saying no if someone asked me as opposed to if they leaned in I would just be like. I'm just GONNA do. I would be more like one of those like movie moments. I'm GonNa Kiss you now and then just like plant went on. May I kissed you then? It kind of makes it a little awkward. I feel like if you're feeling it. Just go for We actually Danny and I had this conversation the other day and he made a joke of. You kissed me without my consent and I was like. Oh my God I'm so sorry it was like but like you said you felt it in the moment on our first day and we'd gotten into his car to drive to another bar something and it was snowing and we stopped at a red light and so. I was like I'm going to kiss him. You know 'cause yeah inspired to do it but now I'm like Oh my God. Maybe I should have asked him. I like Oh maybe I would have asked me. I wouldn't have had this issue now why I was asking the other day. I was like if you have hooked up with someone. Famous news like No. But it's New York so you never know. Yeah have you me either. I mean my body. Maybe a wonderland but you know. Oh my God that is good. What about other Bravo Liberties? Have you ever been on any dates with other Bravo Leopard and we knew about some yeah? They'RE GONNA couple right but we never slept with. Never been with Shep shopping. I hung out a couple times but never slept with him. Same with Carl hung out a few times. I ever slept with him. But they're just fun guys who I met when I did watch what happens. Live or shut a couple of years ago. I was in a relationship so we just had a great friendship and then he did my podcast in La and we hung out after had too many drinks and how to drunk and make out there you go server when he wanted hook up with. Didn't there was someone. I don't even remember his name but when I was here last year they were showing me different pictures of like would you or wouldn't you and it was someone on million dollar listing out. Probably Saba play. Yeah but definitely he's would be. Guess what is one of your biggest turn. Offs Turn Offs dirty fingernails. Ooh You know because it's like I want those hands on me and enemies so try to keep them clean. That would definitely be one bad teeth just like like overall hygiene like if a guy takes care of himself then. I know he's going to take care of me as well. But if the guy can't clip his nails and brushes teeth. That's I think that's mine too like longer. Fingernails on guys. I think mine is like someone who I can't can't fuck with like right away like if if I can't joke around and be myself like Theodore too sensitive. I'm just like oh the we will have nothing to talk about. Also I think a sloppy drunk. That is so unattractive me like. There's like fun drunk. Brock and I will party our asses off together. But it's fun. It's never sloppy. Where I'm worried needed. I already was married to that. And so that just is a big no for me. Yeah and plus. I mean you're probably do have a little bit of PTSD. Yeah I got that Do you often find that friends. Come to you for dating advice and you are like having not been on that many dates like how do you respond to that I think it just depends on the situation. I think sometimes better giving advice than taking it because I know what I should do and I don't always do it but in really good at telling other people. What they should do is say to write. Because I've done the opposite and it didn't work out so take my word for it. I mean sometimes. I don't know what to tell people when they come to me for dating advice. I've been in my relationship now for about two years and I almost like forget. What do you think of when you hear the Word Setris? Is it orange slices for your mid day snack or a lemon wedge in your water at your favorite restaurant yes and yes but another thing that citrus springs to mind is sharing because citrus was literally made to be shared and no one knows that better than sunkist sunkist grows the type of citrus? You can't wait to peel or add to your favorite recipe. That was just missing that one thing and with over forty citrus varieties. You'll never run out of things to share where people to share them with like all your friends coming over for the real housewives premiere or your workout class. Or your next big pre-game there's a citrus cocktail Mateo. Dinner and dessert for all of it. However you share and whoever you share with sunkissed will be there to make it a whole lot. Sweeter learn about all forty of sunkissed delicious citrus varieties like Cara Cara oranges Minneola Fangio's blood oranges and more at sunkissed DOT COM sunkissed share. What's real what it's like to be dating sort of like I don't know go out there and wing it to say yeah and especially most of my friends who are single. Do Dating APPS and I'm just like I I don't know like I wanna I wanNA call her out but one of my closest friends. Who's not on? The show has just had bad date after bad day from all these dating apps and then she finally thought she found the one and then once he found out she had a kid was like scared. And it's just like I'm like because she's such an amazing woman and she just deserves the right guy but she's just kissing a lot of frogs right now like with the dating apps and even what you mentioned about Brock. You're able to have chemistry right in the beginning so I if people do come to me for dating by some often like it's it sounds cliche but it's like when you know you know exactly and you just feel it and you can't really explain it. Yeah that's what it is and I tried to push him away for a solid two weeks. I was like he just kept doing all of these amazing sweet thoughtful things when we were like please. My number never call me again like this too good to be true and he kept coming back and finally I was just like all right a given. We now happiest I've ever been. What was the you were like all right? Fine I give in there or I don't WanNa cry so we'll try and say there was. There's quite a few moments but one in Vegas. He surprised me for one of my friend's birthdays. She had left an outfit. She really wanted in San Diego at the music festival the week before and he was supposed to have one of his friends drive it and forgot and he knew how important it was for her birthday that she had this sparkly jacket thing so he got on a plane. Flew to Vegas surprised me and also on her birthday was the day. A friend of mine HAD PASTA WAY so every year. I do a shot at Jameson for him and that night. I was just so busy making sure everyone else was taking care of her birthday and at the end of the night. He's like I'M GONNA go run and grab a water and I'm like Oh my God like I just WanNa go to bed and he went and he grabbed a bottle of Jameson. It was like we didn't do a shot for your friend and I was just like I'm done I can't this is he's in fact. Yeah and there were doing more of those moments but that was just one like I forgot about the Jameson shot and this is something I've been doing every year for seven years and like Oh my God that's awesome. I love that story. I Want Jameson Stewart. Never too for a hot toddy. Have you ever experienced the dating phenomenon of being ghosted? Yeah Max offering tax reform that Apple Watch. I'm like I got you the waterproof one when you were serving. You still had no excuse insane. I mean that was the thing where I'm just like you know what use your words because now seeing the things he's saying to the guys like I definitely stopped watching the show and started rage texting las week. Because I'm like why didn't you say this to me if it was if you felt I was coming onto stronger? It was too much instead of texting me. All of these sweet things and then just like disappearing. How about you? Just use your words and say you know what this is actually a little too much but instead he was so supportive of me freezing my eggs like I did not want to date anyone at the time I was fighting off and on with Adam and Max just popped into my life out of nowhere. We exchanged numbers. He was so sweet and just giving me all the attention. I wasn't getting from anyone else and hadn't in a long time even from rob so I was like okay. You know. It doesn't feel like the right time. Maybe not even the right person but this guy seems very interested so I'm not going to pass up something that could be good and so I just went all in because he was all in and then he was all out like real quick and I was like. Oh on my gosh. Yeah so you mentioned the Apple Watch. We know that you've gotten someone in Apple. Watch a penguin drones IPAD. What's not one but two because he's sunk the first one in big bear while we were filming. Oh my God. What about brock? Have you gotten him anything lately? Sees got him then new ideas like what is. What do you buy an album products? All these guys he's like. I don't ever want anything from apple again. Everyone needs a pair of airports. Don't have one you know. And they're the new ones and he has bigger ears than the ones don't fit. And so these ones are like adjustable and I knew it was something he would use and wanted so I got him. I told you I was like I know but I just had to get you one thing and then he got me Gucci glasses so I was like okay so when we said we're not doing presents for Christmas. We still both dead. Nice presents for Christmas. I like Applebee's to sponsor you hurt her. Schipol thousands of them they only knew. Yeah Yeah what is your opinion on the third date rule? Where you're supposed to wait until the third day to no no. You're feeling that you feel I. I am not against sleeping with someone on the first date. If that's what you're feeling I mean look at Teddy and Edwin. I mean there are a lot of solid relationships that have come off of what you thought might have been a one night stand which I've also never had. No one believes me. Never Yeah I get like no penetration. Yes yeah the qualifier for a one night stand. Yeah what about you date? Roll man no no no. It doesn't work that way in the gay community. I can tell you that I realize I date. We gotTA figure this out. I mean you know. And that's the thing is I mean I don't say too much but you know you are interested in someone if you do way and then it's like what about if you really started develop feelings and then you're like shoot. I haven't taken that next step. And what if that sucks and you already liked this person so I just think you know if you feel it do it because then once you way zone terrace. I don't know yeah. So what date with brock wasn't it was actually technically? I think like date the review we hung out a caboose GEICO and then he drove up to La. We did lunch. He came out to Vegas and then back to San Diego for the Cross Music Festival. Las Vegas no because he just flew for literally less than twenty four hours. I was staying with all the girls and sweet. He came and we were out to like five six. Am and then. He had a seven flight. It's hard to like. Have Sex in Vegas because you are up all night in the morning and you're like well I'm tired. Yeah so Yeah I think it was the third big. Hang out thing okay. So we just didn't we also have an opportunity to before right so it might have happened. It might have happened. The way it happened was so perfect and I was just like I'm done. Yeah signed me up right. We're in this now weirdest place you've had sex honey Weirdest I don't know where trying to think. Conference Chairman Rockefeller Center. We could make it happen. I walk the green room tonight. I'd love that you. What's the Weirdest Place Megan? I definitely bar bathroom. It's not weird it's right. I mean again in the Gay Community. Bathrooms are just as good as bedrooms. We asked Leeann lock in the same question from Dallas and I think she had said through a fence but then she was like oh no that was just a joke and I was like. I don't know like who of all of their fellow classmates. Who Do you remember going on a first date and knowing that they were probably going to make it Tomonori it was Tomonori. Oh absolutely I mean. Just they chemistry. They had as friends when we all work together at Villa Banga. I'm like why are you with Kristen? Like this makes no sense. This makes perfect sense so I was definitely one of the factors and pushing them together and pushing kristen away and Christopher sheeting dom also so it was like we knew that she had so I. I knew that if they ever did day Tomonori honor they would be an insanely amazing couple on the flip side. Who went on a date? And you're like this is not going to work. I didn't think Jackson Brittany. I didn't think I've never see her again. So it was my thirtieth birthday in Vegas and he brings this adorable little country. Girl who I think is like a fan girl didn't know that she had never seen the show or anything brings her to my intimate birthday. Party of like ten fifteen people my family. They're like why are you bringing through my birthday party and I was like we'll never see this girl again and boom weeks later. She's like deriving from Kentucky. And now look at them. Yeah I could not be happier to have both of them in my life but she is just such an amazing soul and I'm so glad it worked out for them you know. I can't wait to see the wedding it was B- You saw. It was so fun wild. Yeah well I do have one final question okay. True or false the bigger the hoop. The bigger. The Ho- lawless as the bigger the better the job search true rock says yes. Thank you so much you know and remember watching Bravo isn't a guilty pleasure itself care guys. Let's keep the conversation going. We WanNa talk to you all week long. Not Just Thursdays you can find it on Instagram at Bravo daily dish and on twitter at Bravo. Tv just don't forget to use the Hashtag Bravo daily dish or reach out to US personally. I'm everywhere at Megara. And I'm everywhere at Eric. J Mac that's E. R. I K. And if you're on. Facebook joined the daily dish facebook Group. You can post about what you're watching your favorite shows. Who's your favorite housewife? Ask a question. Start some drama. There's a lot of good stuff in there so check it out. You can also learn more about the podcast at Bravo. Tv DOT COM by guys. I gotta go with me.

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Directors of Scream Queen! My Nightmare on Elm Street Documentary, Tyler Jensen & Roman Chimienti [Episode 30]

The Nick Taylor Horror Show

53:35 min | 1 year ago

Directors of Scream Queen! My Nightmare on Elm Street Documentary, Tyler Jensen & Roman Chimienti [Episode 30]

"A welcome to the Nick Taylor Horror. Show Tyler. Jensen and Roman Schimenti are of direct. To`real duo behind scream queen my nightmare on ELM street. This is a documentary that dives deep into the story behind a nightmare on ELM street to which was a sequel. That was very notorious for its overtly homoerotic. Innuendo and the controversy that ensued from this movie so I really enjoy this documentary. Not just because I'm a horror fan and love Freddie Krueger movies bite. Screen Queens is unexpectedly a very emotional journey and ultimately a very poignant story about forgiveness and the gay experience in Reagan Era America during the nineteen eighties which was a time that was loaded with a lot of cultural repression hatred and fear over the AIDS crisis so the movie follows actor Mark Patton who was ridiculed for his gate portrayal in nightmare on ELM street. To and it's kind of crazy 'cause that was really not that long ago but in the movie we follow him throughout the course of a year on the Horror Convention circuit where he interacts with fans and along the way he confronts the producers and Writers who in effect tarnished his career it It's it's it definitely packs a huge emotional punch in all in all it feels like I'm very important. Watch so I do recommend it. But in the meantime without further ado here are the directors Tyler Jensen and Roman House. The reception been so far. Has the overall tour been? It's just been nonstop like people. Free now really. Yeah like kind of awesome but NAH would I was prepared for. Lay it a very emotional response from a lot of people you know. Yeah we have one of their one of the things I notice off the bat in. I mean I'm obviously huge. Horror Fan have seen a lot of horror documentaries and a lot of them are like fanned documentaries which is Faya but this movie it. It pleased the horror fans been had such far reaching wider universal. Themes that I thought were is uneven. The prof profundity profound nature of the of the of the bigger message was far beyond what I expected approaching the movie. So I can only imagine that That a receptions been great right people will come up to us after the film. They're like I didn't know what I was expecting. Or I thought I knew what I was. GonNa get this movie walking in and you delivered something so much more. I don't have a question that just say thank you like. I didn't hear all of that A lot of the Cubans do give motion. Had people come up in cry. Tell their life stories in response to mark's in how that kind of makes a safe space for them to do so is really exciting to be part of a not necessarily something that we anticipated when we made this. You've been we didn't WANNA make a fan film from day one. That wasn't the intention ever ends but that wasn't interesting to me because there was already never again and a lot of things in the works and I just felt like this story. Isn't it's not going to serve our story at all to be all about the behind the scenes of nightmare on ELM street to you know 'cause that's that's a shallow in short lived in it. You can't really focus on that and of an marks personal story it. Just don't really go hand in hand in the long run. So Yeah Yeah. So how did the movie come together? I mean can you walk me through the process from the original idea to how you got to having a healthy rats? Oh God that's along the color years time yes in a nutshell It started with me one night. Thinking what the hell happened to mark patent. That was my favorite movie. I love that guy was a great actor wife I never thought of him before in the middle of the night so I looked him up and he online he's chatting with people. He was accessible and he was already kinda teasing the ideas of telling this story. Mike Wow that's such a great story that nobody's heard so I just wrote to women we. We started a relationship and went through a few phases of like what? How what is this movie going to be before it finally landed in my lap entirely like here? You guys just run with it. So I met Tyler and At the time it was a very harassing to meet a like minded gay person. Who's a huge horror fan? Now that's become a big a popular thing but at the time. That was not something that happened often so when I met him and we were both working in film. I thought this would be a great person to work with. Because it's this is not. This is not a task that I could take on by myself. It was a monument what we wanted to do from the get go was much bigger than like. Hey let's just like show. The World Mark Patents Bat gets like No. This is a bigger picture and I knew that. So then tyler came on and we became a duo that really like essentially we just everything was like. I don't know if we're GONNA get to talk to robbing lind. I don't know Robert Wrestler's GonNa be available. Let's just like corner them at a Shell and make it happen and it went from there. Everyone was super agreeable. It was it was very interesting Romans sound engineer. I'm a editor mostly. Am I gonNA a project together? I heard him talk about this. And he's like project essentially like he was more interested in getting story told than being the one to tell it he's like I just want to be a part of it and I'm so hasn't really involved to what you're trying to do that. I am going to volunteer my services when I heard that I heard three to baton like I'm in I don't care. I volunteered to edit the film and then I'm like I will shoot your bureau and then I get to Florida for the first shoot now. Mike. I can help you tell the story like definitely no-one set out to control. This thing happened. Organically the people involved all came to us because they wanted to be a part of this project touched a lot of different people over over time. Yeah definitely that's already it was. It was definitely a lot you know like he said there's a lot of people that came on board to help us with everything you can think of from extra cameras color graphics but also just the people involved a nightmare shake cast. They were I think a lot of them were surprised because they hadn't heard any of this from mark but a lot of them were also deeply moved by this that they they were a part of it even without knowing it so they've all been very accommodating and I mean everybody. Everybody sat down for us in talked in. They they loved it. It's also kind of cool probably to be in a horror movie in the eighties and then thirty years later realized Otit. It's actually a part of something bigger. You know. I guess that's what every actor would love to find themselves in but Yeah no it was. Awesome I think that we did We did Horror Hound right. Were they all there again in. This is after they're done some initial interviews and everyone was super excited in the word was starting to get out. That's when we launched our kickstarter and that's before that happened. We didn't know if we actually had a fan base this was it. They were still mocking Mark Patent in nightmare to online. You couldn't type in Freddy's revenge without people saying always Mark Vaga in. This movie sucks. That was nonstop. So we didn't know if this if this was going to be a thing but the kickstarter Kinda went crazy. And we knew at that point a lot of people came out of the woodwork from their lack. Needs to tell the story you need to include this aspect of it and this aspect of it so we had an idea of what our film was then. Kickstarter happened into blew up and all the best way possible. That's why we cover so many topics in the fell. Let's because people came to us or like this is a part of it and you need to include it awhile. Yeah that was part of my next question which was typically when people approach documentary. They do have a preconceived notion of what they want film. But then there's an element of just a observation and allowing the real story to unfold. So I'm wondering. How much did the did the story change? When you went into production I mean how much shifted as you were filming. I think Olive it. It was so for me personally. My intention always was the our ending the way I I knew where my end goal was but knowing what was going to happen with mark was all up in the air. The you know like there's it's it's talks about how he confronts a lot of issues but we didn't know if he was going to have that opportunity when we were on the road with him we just had to take each thing as it came in a Lake Hyde said that a lot of we just had to closet Corner a lot of people to to you know. Hey Actress about this thing. Like no one was really prepared for any of the interviews so everything in it is pretty authentic on the spot and. I think that we kind of had this idea we knew about marks fan base. 'cause we had gone to the shows at seen how all these people respond to Lines of people just waiting to pour their hearts out tubes. We knew there was that aspect but we didn't anticipate just how intimately we were. GonNa follow him in having these conversations with his peers. So as that happens. Were rewriting saying okay. I see where this could go. So that right I mean. Did you see the way it was gonna end no in fact that the final showdown was not heart? The story like a while though that we got lucky in that regard and I am definitely like brings the story to a point that suddenly like opens up the whole thing. It's like it's not about this movie about this experience. It's about Resentment and how long you hold onto things and what it takes over them and what what they become when you hole. Don't carry them for so long and it's it's rare that people get an opportunity to reevaluate things and investigate that and we got super lucky that we have that confrontation in the end. Yeah I mean that was such a climactic element of it. I mean I was practically biting my fingernails. Watch like how is this town? That was a very. I think that was pretty much the only interview with the ELM street people that we had planned ahead of time. Everything else have happened on the fly that the cell. There's that fireside chat with the Hulk asked that happens at the Convention and the next morning Jack has literally waiting for us to like have more conversations like we didn't plan that that wasn't anything that we still said. Prepare anything else. I gotTa tell you something. And that's when I knew that we had a bigger story that in the Earth's hotel room chat about his whole life because I all up to that point. I thought we were still making a nightmare to dock and suddenly when I get the whole back story. It's like this. This is where we have to go Did the process of making this unearth any other similar stories. Behind any other movies either horror otherwise it. It unearthed a lot of similar stories within ourselves. I don't know about other movies like gossip within the actors realm. Not so much. Well we did speak to other actors who all had similar experiences but it was nothing that would tie directly to films. They were in. It was just living in one thousand nine hundred Hollywood Hollywood as a whole would have been the culprit there But no I think ELM street to Kinda stands alone as being tied so closely to such a. How would you describe it like a woven into the story in a way that? I don't know any other movie has been Yeah and it seems like it is a movie that has been embraced by the Gay Community. Regardless of the fact that initially it was not exactly open about the fact that it. It did have a lot of gay subtext to it. Although it wasn't exactly subtext but now it seems like it has fully embraced by the community right with that in mind. Are there any other horror movies that are embraced by the community? That are either new or better that our old that are notable. Yeah well you've got my favorite sir seed of Chucky and Ella Mary Lou. Prom night to which. I don't feel like either them gets a good In the horror world right me as a gay man like I have the most fun with those things like those are a wink and a nod to me that I can't get enough of actually. Hello Mary Lou. Properly to is like a lesbian sister. To Freddy's revenge. It really is. It's got a lot of stuff. It's only been reevaluated. Recently I remember when it came out in the eighties I love the commercial. It was in and out really quick. No one wants to see it now. We've been talking about it so much. It's we've heard podcast reviews of it. It's a fantastic movie and it has a lot of really scandalous elements to it. It's got a female Freddie Krueger who uses sexuality as as her weapon of choice. Yes for late eighties. There's a lot that was birth during that time you know I do think that there's so we. I don't think these movies have been fully embraced by the gay community. I think they tend to gravitate towards heroes still More than like this underlines subtexts that comes out later but things like Jennifer's body and things where you're like. Wow that girl's bad ass like I love this. We're still kinda latching onto those types of characters because we still need that powerful representation. I suppose someone that you could be like. Yeah she'll rip your head off. I like that so I to me. That's always the first one I think of. 'cause it was kind of Not shunned it. Just didn't do well when it came out but now everyone seems to be talking about it again. Yeah that's a great one. Yeah I couldn't understand why nobody was into Jennifer's body when he came out but it's it's having a renaissance now. I saw the blue right immediately. I think it was probably had to do with the marketing. I think there was something about a if I if I remember correctly they. The marketing campaign seemed like it was trying to appeal more to a feminine audience which wasn't biting in. I think that Actually quite the reverse. They were relying heavily on the hotness of negative Fox so it was like. Oh she's going to be naked in this movie for marketing. Two teenage boys when really? It's a story about toxic enough friendships. And those two things. It was like a Bayton switch for the audience. Yes Jean hot in the movies of new teenage boy. Going to see that you're right. Are you disappointed? But it wasn't it didn't deliver on that promise L. Bubis right. I just listened to talk between Megan. Fox DIABLO CODY and Tim. Tonight and she was Diablo. Cody safe. The scorecard from the test audience from an year old white dude. Who's like needs more movies and he spelled Bubis B. W. T. I. E. S. a. I was like Oh that's amazing. Still love it. That's the great publicity as well. That kind of goes into a point that we're trying to make which is the old stereotype of the horror. Fan is is changing a lot like that is not who the the production companies are putting all. They're not putting all their eggs in their basket for that type of guy because they're now realizing that there's like fans that are women that are gay men that are black that are all everyone else's like Clam Vigo down to like Mexico. They loved Chucky. You know like they've got there's a fan there's fans all over the place so if you're just GONNA be trying to deliver the same thing to the same people then you're gonNA alienate. Everyone else in there goes all your mind so yeah I do think we're in a new age where also people are hungry for new types of stories and I think that's why Elm Street to having a resurgence is because they're like. Wow there was more layers to this. So it's more enjoyable now. We Have A. We've raised the bar of what we what is scary to us because we need that relate ability and while no one could relate to Freddy's revenge in nineteen eighty five. I think now there's more people that are. There's a lot of straight males that are like I can identify with that character Jesse because he was an outcast at school. People treated me like Shit. You know like it's there's A. There's a new lens now with the audience and that's good part of the conversation also is for generation of Gay People Command specifically Freddy's revenge was the accessible gay film that they had access to and it wasn't obvious light they would go rent scary movies with friends and everyone watching a horror movie together but for gay men. They're hanging up on sexuality of nightmare to the male nudity just identifying Jesse as well and to relish in that without everyone else around them knowing that like other watching a game movie so your parents are GonNa look at you differently if you are never know straight to insane when you rent coming by your name or mountain when you're ten years old right and this conversation was a lot or like this is the first thing I could get my hands on and therefore it holds Earth special place in my heart. Wow so for a lot of people. It was the first. It was the first movie that just kind of that did explore homosexuality that they had seen that exploded at on representation not even the homosexuality of it but for a teen movie in the eighties to have any like female. Nudity is rampant. It's in everything to have male. Nudity exclusively male nudity in a movie. This is the one of the only times that you get that. Especially in popular or franchise time right so everyone will wonderful The other thing I did want to remark on about the movie is they've felt the the exploration of the themes in the overall message behind it. It did feel very natural. Hair naturally explored all these different things. It didn't seem like it had that much of an agenda in that regard but the messages came across very very naturally so I was wondering that being said. Were there any really specific messages that you did want audiences to walk away with in our phone? Yeah okay Definitely it was that that call to the younger generation to another history and be aware that I mean we started this. It was Twenty Fifteen. Obama was still president. Who still were like in a happy blissfully unaware that the world's about to change kind of message and gay marriage was legal the younger generations especially the ones who are coming up to mark. Don't know the horrors of AIDS. Don't know the struggle that was fought a four for them to Accepted more so than they were two generations before so then the world changed overnight and all of these fears came back and suddenly. We weren't necessarily talking to you know just a few people suddenly. It's like very present and very terrifying again. Yeah I do think that having kind of grown up in the shadow of AIDS through the eighties nineties myself I do. I did feel like that was a message that needed to come out like I didn't mark story having first hand experience. Losing all his friends Is something everyone needs to hear. I do think that a lot of the younger generation. Don't they weren't really aware of what it was like to grow up as a gay kid feeling like? That's your legacy like that. It's so prevalent that like. Oh there's nothing we can do to stop AIDS and this is in the trauma that you carry with you into your adulthood is is monumental and so. I feel like for myself going through this movie. It really helped me unpack lot of stuff but also I feel like we need to keep spreading that message so that people don't take it for granted so it doesn't happen again or if something happens people are ready and I also feel like we have the other message that I was excited about. Honestly was the fact that we were going to be able to tell this tale to a straight audience as well as a gay audience is. There's not a lot of gay movies that reach across the aisle like that. If it's if it's about AIDS it usually gets you know. Gay People will tend to go and watch those documentaries. This is to me exciting. Because now we get to have the conversation with a broader audience in. I feel like that's the only real way. Change happens is through our allies so out of it was also a trying to take the stigma away from HIV positive. People time for a lot of people. They allowed the nineties and like did no research so you still see a lot of like negative comments of people living with HIV relate. You don't need to have the stigma anymore. We have that breakdown bike. Undetectable on transmissible. And hopefully we got a lot of comments from eight survivors Enersen Cisco show like you told it as it is and got a lot of comments or gay men who are recently. Hiv positive. They're like thank you for telling this audience about being. Undetectable because we're still fighting a lot of stigma and it's not a death sentence that it was eighties. Wow Wow smoothies just A. It's done so much I mean that's it's it's pretty incredible. You expect this much of a response. I didn't think that a kid. I can't think that far ahead when you're trying to put together a film years. Oh you're drowning in all of your edits and literal literally and everything that like to start dreaming big ads this extra weight. The clouds your your your production so no. I didn't any of that. We definitely on the blinders delight. Stop checking social media and just like get the film done and many years many late nights in our studio just walking ourselves in going over every detail every chapter film. It hopefully making sure that connects to anybody who finally showing people nick comeback with tears in their eyes. Oh I think it worked. Yeah it wasn't it wasn't we had forgotten the importance of the message and the story by getting so macro with the edit when we were actually able to set back in Roy Elvis guessing powerful. Here it was. It was a lot though because our main I wanted the main focus to be. Can your mother sit down and watch this and understand what we're talking about having never seen a Freddie you know so and that's a tall order 'cause you gotta get him up to speed with screaming queens and eighty slashers in the entire franchise of nightmare on Elm Street in the legacy that they have in how you know in fans take all that very particular you know. They're like that's not the right glove the for the for the move for Park Four. You know so. There's all of that stuff to consider too you know and they and we get emails all the time from people wanting to know details about thinking they're talking to mark you know he's he's so wonderful in the facts that he's actually opened himself up to communication with people on facebook instagram. You can write him in. He will write you back. But then there's also the flip side. Which is they want to know everything that was going on at all times when you're putting together a movie like this you. Kinda have to disappear. So yeah that was a Allen Jr did you guys edited yourself yourself up okay. How was IT How was it editing? Your own movie. I would imagine. It's probably Adra. Well you can do. What the dumbest thing you can do always difficult to be objective about the edit suites yourself since we fought about every every millisecond of it so tyler has his his brilliant putting together. I. He's developed his own style. That I believe is what makes scream queen as likable in easy to watch. Even though it's long and there's a lot of avenues we go down but he has his own style. Which really is amazing that being said before you can really like sprinkle all that glitter run. Something you've gotta you've gotta lay down the foundations in that it's insane so that was. That was the hardest part. I think we were fighting a lot in the beginning to how to tell a story we were trying not to use. The first cut was kind of a disaster because no one knew then it understand all the steps that we took for granted or just like out fans will totally no. We're talking about and all people are like I don't. I don't know what this is yet. We had lake shift gears. We started writing the. Oh good friend of mine to cease evolved in east like. Oh you nominated outright like clone tier of right now. That was another character yet but yeah I. I don't know if I would I to say that? We added editing. Your movie is a beast but in this case we knew we knew everything you know. You've got hundreds of hours of footage right so two handed off to somebody else and we did have some other people come in to try and like give us input or help read. It just always felt like we know all the nuances here is hard to let go of that control right and it was. I would scream about that all the time but in the end. I guess it worked out. I don't know if we had another editor if it would've gotten done any quicker Because it took US years to put this together and we actually got to live with this footage and like go over it as often as we de become found a deeper meaning through all of it whereas if you look back at our first cuts that's very much like meat potatoes and now no flavor but but don't you think that a lot of this has it's also wearing so many hats because I think with this. It's also about the we had to play. Nancy drew all the time. We had to go fine stuff from an era that they didn't have things recorded. It's it's funny. The Difference Between Nightmare to nightmare on ELM STREET. Three is massive in terms of what you can find online. That's when they really boosted their promotions they have promos. They have advertisements photos. They didn't have all that for part two so we had to really like they didn't have it for part one either. Like one day is even less. There's more stuff made about part now. Party was hard. Use that in do any lake. Red Carpet South. It was like this demon that showed up when we literally had to get stuff from people that just happened to have it in their attic and forgot all about it with the word out and like so again. It goes back to people offering to help us so it really was this like giant communal thing in in the end. But when you're how do you find something if you don't know who to ask? Did you ever come across any commentary from wes? Craven about nightmare to well. He's made a couple remarks within like a finger area but now he kind of was not involved at all. I think there's a lot of a lot of talk about. He will his opinions on the movie. But I think it Honestly I think it was all a business thing he just was like. This is not the direction I'm going and I'm also busy on something else. And then there. He's lured into help make some changes because his name attached in the industry. It's really like they can slap your name on something that's all that matters. I thought a lot of people have the younger generation. Now has the MC you like every film is planned out well in advance. The film franchise interwoven expert early with TV. And comic books. That is a new thing. They didn't make films crunchers like this in the eighties. It was like we're GonNa make a movie away successful if make another one. It wasn't some grand planning right over the whole series like there is today like you pitch a movie you got to pitch seven of so cool were there any. Robert England felt the T. Like he was he had a lot to say on the top. It seemed like he had been waiting for somebody to talk about this. What was that overall interview process like with with him? There isn't a process we said. Do you WanNa talk to us. It just wouldn't stop so all of us at the Florida show and it was the first time convention and we got Super Lucky that it was not very well attended so all. These people had twenty minutes downtime to step away from the table. We've gone to other conventions since then and there's a line for everyone of them out the door and they don't get a moment to even go to the bathroom alone take twenty minutes thirty minutes talk somebody signing off the pestle so yeah he's got super lucky and but also lucky that the fact that they were willing to open up like that having no prep on what. We're GONNA talk about. Ask them what our credentials were if we'd done a movie before. Know all these things so stars really aligned with all that stuff and when we sat and talked with him. I think honestly that he gets asked about Freddy Kruger. So much to be asked the things that we were talking about a I could see that. He sat down for five minutes and then wanted to stay for an hour in his. We were talking about things that were a little more interesting. Maybe time period. Not necessarily this character Plus he got to explore his experiences pre Elm Street and talk about what it was like just in the world of the the early eighties. Being an actor stage actor in in New York when it's very open in accepting and then his account of how people all went back into the closet eighties was very that conversation. Coming from England reaches an audience. That is that we were hoping to try to lower into this film so it was written our benefit for Sir. That's great it's really great. So were there any unexpected challenges that came with making a documentary that you didn't anticipate for all those aspiring documentarian out there? Every everything is every game we. So here's the thing here's the thing. I am very thrilled with the way happened. I do think that a lot of this stuff. I don't think it's accidental. I don't believe in fate necessarily but I do think that all these things came together because we tapped into something that was necessary. That was brewing. And we're kind of like where's in that sense that we're okay to stand up and say this is what we need. This is what we're doing what we want. You can follow our later. Not so a lot of people came to us and helped us. We had an easy time in many regards. That being said. Make a movie like this with your own money or no money is a challenge so it means that every time you can't afford something you can either omitted or you can learn to do it yourself and that's what we were having to do constantly and that was in the moment you can feel really deflated like. Oh my God I have. Another task is to on top of the fifty in. Like we're never gonna get it done in. How do you stay on track of how positive so that was that was the most challenging thing is ourselves you know reality take turns like being a share care nurturing to each other being like you don't have to take this burden on yourself While Australian it's hard please stop yelling at me. I know you've given me. I mean beautiful. Most challenging part was the kickstarter and getting that public attention so quickly in our process that everyone assumed that this was that we were bigger production studio than we were end. Wanted it immediately so to like where's our. Dvd was waiting months afterwards that to them. Of course Santa. It's like we gotta make it right. We have to make it worth your way and actually deliver on the promise that we know we can begin. That'd be promised to you. Yes so it's hard when you have to do that. Also under the scrutiny of one thousand people that don't understand the process as well right. So that's the it's a gift in occurs but ultimately it's amazing thing you know right now. The best part of the whole tour is getting up on stage doing his during the credits on all the backer names come up and like any We see snapshots of ourselves and the audience and Mike. There's no less than like sixty people on the screen at the same time. All of all of which have come from different parts of personalise as well as fans out there who were so committed to seeing the story being told you mean when the backer list for ninety nine s Like longtime like our friends. Our families like my third grade English teacher. It's just like how people have been rooting for us at Lake excited to share this with them. Finally so that they know that money was well spent the pressure that was on fresh. Make your mother unhappy. Don't make your yeah we. Can we can host a new symposium on how to do a kickstarter and how to dot lose your mind doing it at. That's been one of the greatest teaching tools of this whole thing. A retrospectively any kickstarter tips for anybody. Who's playing on kick? Starting similar projects a shorter. The better. You mean timeframes timeframe. We didn't think forty five days and they allow you thirty. I think it's like two weeks or thirty days. Forty five days in up We thought Thing to have more time and in fact isn't a psychology that you want your kickstarter to end and the second half of the month because bills bills paid the first month. Though they get paid again on the fifteenth suddenly. They have some fun money to spend. And why not donate it to some filmmakers right at the same time? I think that that the what everybody wants. The things that will sell the most are the physical copies of DVD's or digital downloads. But that's really what people want is the end product. Don't offer seventeen different t-shirts don't offer MTM differentes shirts because you also get a l l those when one by one but I do think it's Kinda changing all the time and we did ours. It was for years ago. Things have changed a lot so I don't know what's new in that regard but I do know that like people love the prizes essentially and they if you actually go and research how this how this works. There's certain days of the week in certain times of the day that they tell you. Now you you launch a new park and people Kinda Goose's the pace of your of all this and they also say for anyone that's going to attempt this. Don't freak out when it's two days before the ending and you haven't made your goal because you want it's all GonNa Swarm at the very end so you just have to maintain it with a smile. Everyone wants to be the hero. Pledge Though that lasts today is I mean. We have our remark. I think thirty six hours before the end of our thing wasn't Albert win. One of our heroes pledge in England Clive Barker all tweets. It was people. Were excited about it. But the part we didn't talk about his life when that's done and you make it suddenly. There's like all this pressure I needed to disappear from life for a minute I got. I can't beg anyone for Monday anymore and I just need to step back like be quiet alone for a while. Yeah it's very it's very. You feel really naked after all that very because you're very vulnerable and your and then the expectation lands on you so yeah you know what this is. The way making movies is. It's everything is like it. If it was something that one person could do themselves. It'd be a different story but because you've got a hold up the way of something antiques a whole crew. It's just an emotional ride. Plus we had fulltime jobs as well during all this awhile and this this was definitely like the passion project for the last four or five years. I mean fulltime. I do film sound for Film fulltime. So I'm doing films while working on this film and so nonstop seven days a week. So it's that's another challenge to if you're trying to stay focused on storytelling. You have to flip back and forth between stories in you do editing nonstop but in the end. I think that made us do like. I know it took a long time to make scream queen but it. It was a lot shorter than I think. A lot of other people would have done because I think that we were actually pretty good with that kind of stuff like we know how we were good at making decisions. There's just a lot of them to make. Yeah were there any resources or books that were particularly helpful for you when making this documentary? Either filmmaking books or documentary books are courses or anything that really came in handy. I mean my favourite film making book was always Robert. Rodriguez rebel without crew. That well thirteen years old was like I'm going to sell my body to science to fund my first feature film. I didn't have to do that. Thank God but you're somewhere yeah right. I'm just like I. I was struck by story of like. I'm going to be a filmmaker by any means necessary and I'm not gonNA stop until I do it. And that's kind of the attitude that we went into this product with. That's like no one can tell us no we're gonNA make it just depends on what kind of story that is. Also I think this is kind of a easy one but like Stephen King's on writing with really good. It's really good because it's really easy for anyone to read that be like allocate it. I feel like I could maybe right. But he has some some points that Chapter everyone everyone needs to read about out. Just how to edit your own work and how to be able to look at it and say. Throw this in the garbage. I don't care how beautiful it sounds thrown in the garbage. That's we had to throw so much in the garbage. We could make a whole other documentary all these other topics that like I was so in love with wanting to tell the just didn't work like with with the flow of the story. And and so. Yeah you just have to. You just have to really. What does he call it? Julia girling darlings. Yeah Johnny Col- earl actually also really good one. I just finished is a John Waters Mr Noel Into Directing Kathleen Turner in serial mom and just like what it means to work with stars and what your job as director is and that was super. I mean I read it after the fact of having done this promptly. You gave me a lot of insights. Actors want to be directed. Your job is to have something for them to do well times and knowing what you need from them because they just want to make you happy and sense you have to know what you want to be happy. Yeah cool last few questions so seeing the movie in its finished form what you've invested more in in. What would you have invested lesson? I don't necessarily mean money but it can be time energy focus or money but what would you have invested more in? What would you've been misted lesson? I mean literally a Hobbled together with anything that we could get our hands on so let the cameras were from friends. A lot of the locations were stolen as quickly as we could get them. Just to chew sleighs awesome. Oh I think that if I had more time for Sir so there was many times where we would go and do interviews and you know sit down and speak to clue gallagher right but then I'll step away and say you know what I just got some new insight speaking to this person. Let me go and do a little research and and rewrite some questions so time of course is is of the essence. I think research researching year subject matters. So you can get in a little bit deeper. That takes a lot of time that we didn't really have a lot of especially in the beginning. Yeah we did a lot of our interviews in the beginning Ed Fluctuate so much the end that you kind of wish could go back and ask new questions to your subjects to articulate southern point that you didn't know you were going to make in the end though that's that's and you have to wrestle with and we were still talking about shooting more interviews up until last year until we just had to like walk ourselves in a room and be like with what we have. What is story that we can make? Yeah so I. I do think that I mean. I don't think there was any time wasted on our part. I can't think of anything that I would say. Oh I wish that I had done more there because did what I could with time Less what you know what transcribing everything. We should have done that so all of this. We've watched so many times that it's in our heads and we know it if you'd be connected it all of it every all of it but it doing the. There's a lot of times where we there's a lot of technical things that could have made it a just just easier. That would have been good. It's a learning curve Makino. Now what what? The purpose of transcribing have been. I'm actually working on a documentary myself. So no personal level. This is really helpful to hear you need to do this. You can do it. Very affordably. Ref Dot Com yes. Obscenities interviewed a raft to have transcribed perfect. Okay so that means that you can like save got like one hundred fifty hours of footage but you remember that somebody at one point said something about a red sweater but now you can't find it you're like day. Tell me that in person or was that on camera now. I can't remember Fighting with the memory of how we thought conversations went and points or trying to make Go find that there if we had a transcription being able to tell us what the actual words were said. Melissa out of time then Mike Hunting from her a phrase. Here there in our defense we weren't doing didn't yes. We we should have done it but we were also because we were off the hills of kickstarter. Trying to hurry with unrealistic deadlines. Thought you know what? We don't have those weeks to waste doing this. Let's just jump into it. We already got going so like yes. We should have just paused done that and then move forward but I think we were naively trying to hurry. And that's that's what hurt us a little bit. But at that point we did it but could have been a lot easier Transcriber things learn how to edit your Like listen to your interviews at double speed. My issue is like I couldn't focus if someone was talking to slowly. Sorry learned listen to everything sped up make all my notes that way so that I was actively engaged and not zoning out this is what I said every day. Just about my mom like my mom. I'm GonNa get this right that so you do. What you gotTa do and then you step back and reevaluate it with that in mind and it's hard but you'll get the intro. It's the hardest parts like how much information is one. Need to know before the story really gets going then. Wouldn't delay your card at the right time to reveal more information. That was the arms of the structure. I always told Tyler during production. Don't worry about the introduction. Let's just make our movie and then we will work on that because it's always the hardest but I wonder if maybe someone else had been able to say. Hey this is what you need to do. We did it with that. Have helped us along the way or not. I'll tell you know because I feel your intro is like Inter of your thesis Q. Have to touch on everything that you're going to do in the film and tease it in such a way. That someone's going to be like yes. I'm GonNa give you an hour and a half of my life based on this two minute introduction and it took us a long time and we thought we had it and we didn't end. Someone told us you know like you really need to throw Freddy Kruger in the beginning and suddenly like that unblocked how we introduce mark because on paper. Most people don't know who are admits but everyone in the world knows who Freddy Kruger is so if you introduce our Freddie Krueger than mark they go along with the ride because suddenly put in their living room but in their childhood rates and now a Oh. This guy's art of that. How come I don't know about him? Suddenly the mystery of that unlocks the rest of the story. Because you were a through line as quickly as possible right. Thanks again guys. Talk to you later. All right I mean yeah all right. Thank you guys as always for listening. If you enjoyed this episode it would mean the world to me if you shared it with your friends and family on social media. Don't forget to check out the show on the INSTAGRAM's at I'm Nick Taylor. That's I M Taylor. I'm on twitter. And the exact same handle. Thanks again for listening to the nicktator horror show.

Freddy Kruger Tyler Jensen Freddie Krueger mark Nick Taylor AIDS Mike editor Florida director Lake Gay Community Ella Mary Lou Mark Patton England Mike Wow Reagan America
Revisiting the Archive: Episode 11: Larry Kramer

Making Gay History

22:32 min | 6 months ago

Revisiting the Archive: Episode 11: Larry Kramer

"I'm Eric Marcus. And this is making a history. It's now eleven weeks since my partner Barney and I began sheltering in place and this past week the official death toll in the United States from covid nineteen rose past one hundred thousand mothers and fathers children grandparents colleagues neighbors and friends people not numbers people. I've talked before in this series revisiting the archive about anger. How it can fuel action? How an anger is partnered with love? It can produce a kind of righteous rage that propels us those of us who lived through the AIDS crisis. Know about it. Some of US learned it from Larry Kramer who died this week in Manhattan where he's lived for. Decades Larry was famous for being one of the first billions to sound the alarm during that last epidemic. The one that began forty years ago he was on the front lines even before aids was called AIDS and became a global epidemic at swept away more than thirty million lives before AIDS. Larry was best known for his work as a screenwriter and author but the virus that was claiming so many lives in the political indifference political negligence that greeted it turned Larry into a very public activist. His friends were dying and he felt compelled to do something more than to just bury the dead and mourn their loss in nineteen. Eighty-two Larry co-founded a gay men's health crisis now known as GM five years later he co-founded act up the AIDS coalition to unleash power. Act Up came to be known for its brilliant use of public protests to bring attention to the epidemic by early nineteen eighty nine. When I I met Larry AIDS take in more than sixty thousand lives. Most of them. Gay Men Larry quickly earned a reputation as an uncompromising firebrand with a fierce temper. I'm not proud of it. But that kind of person generally inspires me to run in the other direction. I was more than a little anxious. I approached the door to Larry's apartment in a building that fronts Washington Square Park in New York. City's Greenwich Village. As I said when this episode originally aired I got myself worked up. Nothing I brace myself for a tornado and found the teddy bear. Here's the same. Larry welcomed me into a spacious apartment and showed me into his all white book line living room and I took a seat opposite him across a broad desk as I said at my tape recorder and attach the Mike to his shirt. We talked about how we both had wanted to find a husband early in life and settle down and that led us back in time to Larry's memories as it confused and Unhappy College student in the Early Nineteen fifties. I pressed record interview with Larry Kramer Thursday January twenty six thousand nine hundred eighty nine at the home of Larry Kramer in New York City. Interviewer is Eric. Marcus tape one side one. When I went to Yale I thought I was the only gay person in the world and tried to kill myself because I was so lonely. Did try to What am I think that was fifty? Three was the year my freshman year. Yeah is awful. I mean I do want to go back that far curious because I was a college student on seventy six desperately unhappy. We're at Vassar College. There were there were a lot of gays. They weren't that many people think there were a lot if there were so many gays. Why was I so unhappy? Miserable person and And deaths seemed very appealing at moments during my freshman year when I was dating a woman in making off the man by in life and fifty three must have been much more difficult than seventy six at Vassar. You can even start in shifty. Three Easter I knew I was gay. I think from the day I was born and I think that there have been I. I now know that there were isolate. They were experiences all through before. I even got to Yale. And they were all covert in guilt. Inducing on on everybody's part so the it seemed as if all those early years were spent trying to deny these feelings the feelings would sort of get to strong erupt in and I would have an experience. Which would autumn always make me feel guilty in one way or another and then you put it you become. Sylvia's would come down for a while a week a week or two and Yale was awful. There was a gay bar called parolees. It was awful the time when I finally have the courage to go there. It was only two blocks from campus. But it was a million years away. It was very dark and grey and inside and smokey and and filled with old old older man and I only went the once and somebody picked me up. A car drove for like hours before we found a place that was quiet to do it and then he drove me back where you didn't say a word all of that list of yourself. I eight two hundred aspirin. Oh my God talk about slow and Miss. You must have been pretty miserable to swallow two hundred and yours anymore. Will after you wanted out. Was that who knows. It's a scene. I'll never forget the scene of taking pills the Yup and find you're still better. I didn't wake up. I I went to bed and I got scared and I call. The campus. Police came took me to the hospital and put myself and that was in woke then I fell asleep and I woke up in a room with bars and after grace new haven hospital and there. Was this very unpleasant hospital psychiatrist. Who said all right Mr Cramer? Why did you do it and I go fuck yourself or words to that end he said? I'm now you're not going to be let out of this hospital until you tell us why you did it. And I just had a few rubbed me the wrong way and I wouldn't have told who who knew why I did it anyway. So my brother who's always sort of looked after me came and got me out and he was friends with the dean of Freshmen. My brother had been the before me and And it was you know ordinarily when something like that happen you were shipped off to go join the army really in those days. Yeah and then you come back to Yale and you've grown up but they let me stay. If I went to the University of Coyote. Just his name was Dr Fry Clement Fry. And he was about in the sixties he had silver hair and it was a good looking man he whereas reptiles button down shirt and You just knew that. He cared more about Yale and he ever did about you and And I told him of this experience that I had had of had been invited to go to the room of two of my freshman year. Two guys freshman year that I had met they somehow mercifully had found each other and they were living in this room and I was invited for tea or something and I walked into this room and the room. You know how awful freshman rooms are. Well they had done their room and it was painted all black and there was a everything has been taken out of the room. Except you know a low mattress was which was black and there was a perfect coffee table with with a rose in a vase. That was spotlit in a board. And and Mabel Mercer's playing on the phonograph right so I describe this little Dr Fry in Dr Fries. Reaction was I. Don't I wouldn't see those guys anymore factory and that's what Gail was like that's going to so there wasn't there wasn't a local gay student group you to call it was. I mean I love going back to Yale now and this is my real yardstick of of how far we've come even though. I'm always yelling about how we've not come far enough. I go back to Yale and Yale is like the college now and there's the dance every year for well over a thousand gay men and women in in you know across the campus from where I tried to kill myself because I thought I was the only one so that is your yardstick for change. It certainly is. Yeah that thirty years time you were completely alone thirty years. It is. God doesn't long time. So where does that leave us? A lot of change no change well. I guess it's in. It's in my nature to be impatient and I only got politically involved because of AIDS and there is no question that we have lost the war to AIDS and that we've lost and we'll continue to lose a great many people when we did not have to lose and that the speed of research treatment education you name. It has been tragically in an inhumanely. Slow it's an epidemic that need not have happened and that we should have listened There's no question that that enough people knew what was happening. Should've list we'll specifically. You should listen well the community. I mean the gay press the gay leaders. You were there before. It was an epidemic or just as it was becoming. Well I think now we know that even when we found out eighty one it was much bigger than we thought but we thought it was just the beginning right. Eighty one in this very room in August. Eighty one eighty men sat with Dr Freeman keen from Nyu who told us in no uncertain terms exactly what was happening and and he was right at eighty one in. August of eighty one. The New York Times article that alerted. Everybody really was July third eighty one. The New York Times headline was freer. Cancer Semen forty-one homosexuals and said that all the guys had the same history which was a history of of having had all of these sexual diseases. Amoeba was hepatitis A. and B. and mononucleosis syphilis gonorrhea n-name it. When I saw that in the New York Times I was scared. Because I'd had all of that and I guess the penny dropped the English say or the bell rang or something I call Larry. Massu was was it is my friend. Who's a doctor? And who had written some articles? He wrote a health column for the native and had written about it before the Times had and And I guess I've spoken to Him peripherally about it but not it had. The Bell Hasn't Rung Until The Times. That's the way of making you really stood up and say wow of times covers. It has to be real so he said go talked. Alvin to Dr Freeman keen which I did and Alvin who turned out to be gay and we turned out to have mutual friends. Said this is what's happening. You GotTa Stop Fucking. You're someone well known in the Gay Community. You have to do something about it. Somebody's got to go out there and tell them and it was because of that that I invited Larry Math and I and two other guys. Now dead Donald Been Paul. Rapoport invited everyone. We knew to come to this. First Meeting in August include people from from political groups capable? He got on the phone and we call everybody we called. Anyone could think of political people rich people media people doctors none them showed up and It was a good cross section and It was a lot of people didn't believe him. Did you know this was a hot political football when you picked it up or did you expect people to respond to you or to what you have to say that very meeting that night with without the early evening with Alvin so that I mean there are a lot of very nasty questions put him? There are a lot of people saying you know you're a born again How can you make all of these assumptions on the basis of so few cases? And how can you expect to hope community to stop talking and you know there was no virus? Then people say there's no virus now but it certainly wasn't a virus then that didn't come for another couple of years people could say you have no evidence to base this on and anyone say even if there's the slightest possibility well that's what he was saying and that's what I was saying and It wasn't so much the people that Paul Popham and Nathan Fain who came to be my big adversaries and Gamons health crisis. It wasn't so much that they didn't believe or not believe what was happening. Paul had of course lost a couple friends by them and the lover it was that he didn't think it was Jimmy sees or anybody's position to tell anybody else how to live their lives and that people had to make up their own lines so a lot of valuable time was lost. Not BEING THE CONDUIT. I thought I was setting up or funny to help. Set up with others an organization that was going to do one thing and that organization became and still is another. What was what was set up to spread information and to fight to fight to make the system accountable and to spread the word of what was happening and that you know we got a cool it. It was not that at all it was. It became very quickly. It was taken over by the social workers and and then it is now what it is then. It's a social service in a very good social service organization but it again. That's our tragedy. It's an organization that that helps people to die and is not an organization that helps the living go on living and we still don't have an organization to do that is that maybe act up. Bush came along much too late Beverly for never but much too late. I BLAME MYSELF. I I am very cognizant of of a great failure on my part that I did not have the ability to be leader that I did not have the ability to deal with my adversaries and still be friends. God didn't there is a God. Did Not give the gay community leader when the gay community needed a leader and you feel awesome and you failed in that role and I failed in that role. I feel very strongly failed role. What does the future hold? Then I think age is going to get much much much worse than a lot. More people are going to die and I. I hope that one of these drugs is going to do something about it but I never seem to hear of any let up in the number of people who seem to be getting sick and that's very scary and I'm HIV positive. Myself which I've just discovered and Protested the first time for the first time. Yeah I you know for the first time. It's it's come home to me in an even more personal way. That my days maybe numbered in a way that. I didn't think of before and that's made me real bad more than angry. I find myself going back to act up which I haven't done in a long time because I got fed up with Must be renewed personal personal interest. Give their fighting. Takes me out of my negatively? Makes me makes me just sort of being touched by their positive. Ism helps me a lot of things I haven't asked you. Is there anything that would like to comment on? So I don't feel like I've been at my best today with you so I'll come back feel a little specious than what specious feel a little scattered and what I've said so I don't know what I love being gay and if I have been an am critical it's only. I think we are very special people incapable of so much more and take a long time to be able to to say that for different generation than many. You know you're born what year thirty five and I'M THE GENERATION. That was sent off to shrinks because shrinks then thought they could change you and you were expected to change and it took a long time for me to come to terms with my homosexuality and a lot of shrinks now having come to terms with it and liking it and then having to face. Aids is almost like a Brat nevertheless. It's I think we are very lucky. I just I. I think being a gay man even today with AIDS is is is a wonderful thing. I love being gay after I turned off my tape recorder we talked about. Larry's health asides being HIV positive. Two-thirds of his liver had been destroyed by the hepatitis. B virus. His doctorate told him that he had maybe three years to live. So legacy was very much on Larry's mind. He told me that he saw his work as legacy. But if the risk of disagreeing with Larry Not that he's here to argue with me I think. His biggest legacy was saving lives to the activism. He inspired and his warnings about AIDS which were heard by more than a few of US including me a lot of us our lives to Larry Kramer. Larry outlived his doctor's prognosis by several decades. Experimental drugs a liver transplant in. Two thousand one saves his life. Larry also got his wish to find a husband settling down with David Webster in one thousand nine hundred ninety one they married on July twenty fourth two thousand thirteen. Larry Kramer died. This past. Wednesday may twenty seven twenty twenty. He was eighty four. Actually there's another memory of Larry I'd like to share before I go. I visited with Larry. One more time after that. Nineteen eighty-nine interview. It was at lunch the following summer with my mother in the Hamptons on eastern Long Island where Larry was renting a house. There were both in their fifties younger than I am now. I have no memory of how that came about or how my mother came to be a part of it. I'm guessing she asked and she was known to be insistent but what I remember clearly is how much they enjoyed. Each Other's company to Jews of a generation that spawned so many fighters for social justice mother included spoke the same language and I had the privilege to sit back and listen. How lucky was I? I don't believe in heaven but like to of the two of them meeting up for lunch again looking down on US wondering how we've made such a fucking mess of things and urging us to fight for our lives and the future of our country many thanks to the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation for their ongoing. If you'd like to join us in our mission to bring lgbtq history to life the voices of the people who lived. Please go to making gay history dot org slash support or visit our website at making a history dot com this revisiting the archive episode was produced by Sarah Birmingham making gay histories founding editor and producer and the tire making gay histories deputy director. Who handles all the post production work to get our episodes out to you so long? Stay safe until next time.

Larry Larry Kramer AIDS the Times Larry AIDS Yale Eric Marcus Vassar College Gay Community United States Manhattan Yale Dr Fry Clement Fry Larry Math US AIDS HIV Greenwich Village Dr Freeman