20 Episode results for "Galbraith"

Do Democrats Risk Repeating the Mistakes of the Financial Crisis in the Era of Covid-19?

Deconstructed with Mehdi Hasan

18:36 min | 9 months ago

Do Democrats Risk Repeating the Mistakes of the Financial Crisis in the Era of Covid-19?

"In the fall of two, thousand eight, the US economy was spinning out of control. The housing crisis had sent the financial sector into a tailspin and Wall Street demanded that Congress pony up a seven hundred, billion dollar no strings attached bailout if they didn't there would be financial armageddon. Gun to its head Congress. Eventually pass the bailout bill. Huge payouts were made the financial institutions with little accountability and the great recession followed. Twelve, years later it's starting to feel a bit like deja Vu isn't it? Some of my Republican friends still have not given up on the need to punish the poor and working people one of the largest corporate bailouts with as few strings as possible in American history now is not the time to worry about the national, debt? Today on the show, we're going to talk to someone who made the right call when it counted twelve years ago someone who predicted that the approach the White House was taking was too weak to seriously address the banking and housing crises because we want to avoid the mistakes of two, thousand, eight and two, thousand nine, we might want to listen to this time around I'm Ryan Grim DC bureau chief for the intercept welcome to deconstructed. Back, in two thousand and eight when I was a congressional reporter working for politico. Hours in the hallways of the Capitol Chasing lawmakers who felt huge pressure to deliver the ransom that Wall Street was demanding. And one morning there I ran into the economist James Galbraith. He was on the hill to brief a group of Congressmen from both parties who are skeptical what bank lobbyists were telling them. He told me then that what was being proposed would not be enough to prevent a major recession. A few months after that conversation on Capitol Hill Lawyers. Back. At the drawing board, the financial crisis had sparked an economic collapse. was preparing to pass the famous seven, hundred and eighty seven, billion dollars stimulus bill. So I reached back out to Galbraith and asked what advice he was now offering he used an analogy that has stuck with me since. Imagine. There's a massive hurricane headed your way you're the mayor of town and you have a warehouse full of sandbags. Sandbags to us but you're not sure just how big the hurricane will be. Some people are urging us of the sandbags but others thank you should just use half them and save the rest for the next time there needed. If you use too few and you're wrong you lose everything if you use too many well, you have extra sandbags lying around. So for James Galbraith, the answer was simple used them all he warned Democrats that they went to small with their stimulus. The result would be a deep recession, a slow recovery and mass unemployment, but they went small anyway everything he predicted came true. The following year Democrats were wiped out by a different sort of flood, the tea party wave, and the two thousand ten midterms by election day the unemployment rate was nine point, eight percent. There was a lot of pain around the country and voters punish the Democrats for it. Losing that election effectively ended the legislative ambitions of the Obama Administration he never? Got Back his house majority. If a potential Joe Biden administration wants to avoid the same fate, they might WANNA listen more closely to galbraight this time around because he says that what we need today is entirely different than what he recommended over a decade ago. He made that argument in a recent essay for the intercept which was edited by my colleague car. Naza. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me had Naza. Why? Galbraith. So I with interested in getting outside of the political orthodoxy when it comes to thinking about the economy, you know, as you noted in two thousand and eight galbraith had really different ideas than everybody on the hill about what exactly it was going to take to fix the economy and he has always seemed to me to be somebody who's really clear eyed but also not horribly politically biased. I really wanted to hear from him. What sort of radical vision was actually necessary to get us back up and running again. So we asked him to write a piece for the show this week I called him up to talk more about what he thinks. The US economy needs to get back on its feet. Jamie Galbraith. Welcome to deconstructed Gerard. Much. So I WANNA just start by asking you a question that I've been asked a lot in the course of this election and in the course of the pandemic, which is what is the economy going to look like in the long run if we keep doing what we're doing now how many small businesses do you think will survive and what is the economy look like in a year? Oh a year is a is a long way away from where we are. Now they situation is extremely fluid is extremely unpredictable and extremely fragile. We know in exceedingly dangerous period in which fundamentally the economy was to a degree stitch together in April by pouring a great deal of money into people's pockets into the pockets of businesses and a good deal of that is now drying up you have many many businesses that are hanging on because the owners have some capital and they may help hope that things will get better. But. If they don't get better, they're not going to be there indefinitely and so we could see another wave. Of of closings and another wave of unemployment as the situation unfolds over the course of the fall winter. So the worst is definitely not over a dangerous are certainly not over, we don't have the pandemic under control to begin with. So we don't have a real basis for asking people to go back to their ordinary trains but beyond that, there's a huge psychological impact people are uncertain of their future their don't jobs navy there ended or they might end pretty soon they're facing cutbacks even if they're in relatively stable sectors like state local government, they're facing severe budget cutbacks. So everybody is going to be looking at their own. Bank account their own savings and saying I'm going to be storing up to make sure I can make my rent, make my mortgage payment, pay my utility bills and I'm not going to be going out even if they halsted improves, I'm not going to be going out to restaurants or bars or concerts, or or any activities for that matter that I can do without for the time being, and so you have an enormous retrenchment, which is only partly the direct result of the health. Situation, but also because people are uncertain of their economic futures have rightly so. So. Let's say that Joe Biden wins the election in November and he comes in January what what is his strategy to deal with this? Well now. We don't really know because they're click conflicting signals coming out of the Biden campaign on some people who said, well, he's going to be the next Franklin Roosevelt another sub said no he's not really going to do very much because the cupboard is bare that was Ted Kaufman's unfortunate message. So that needs to be clarified as to what? Vice President Biden's. Intentions actually are, and I can talk more effectively about what they should be ready. Maybe, we don't know which is where in his thinking, they serve various currents actually. Has got the upper hand. Well, what you wrote in your piece is that the signal is that the Biden administration will be taking its clues from two thousand eight and reacting in a similar way now that's. That's fair enough that seems to be the case but. What one season a dominant tendency as that they believe that what they did in two, thousand, eight to two, thousand, nine, two, thousand, ten worked that they can pulley economy out through a short term program of stimulus and then shift to retrenchment of one kind or another. In a you know in the following years. And I think it's fair to say that that is a projection of a situation that was very different than what we have. Now that doesn't have the complication of the of of the public health issue and it didn't have a the kind of It did have a certain degree of uncertainty but the uncertainty over what was going to happen next was resolved in a fairly short period of time, and that's not necessarily going to be the case now and so tell us what's different about how the Obama Administration reacted to two, thousand, eight and why. Just extending unemployment benefits. Giving, money, to. Small. Businesses. The Federal Reserve pouring money into the economy. Why won't that work in the long term I think there there are two or three basic problem show called three basic problems that. are a a release signatures of the situation. The first is that they major industries in which United States is competitive. Now, which depend upon world markets are seeing their markets basically dry up and it's true for I. Think About Aerospace Civilian Aircraft Industry, major industry major employer. Depends upon world demand for aircraft since nobody's flying, there's no demand for new aircraft. Can go down the list of the oil industry. You may not like it but it it fueled the recovery in the last twelve years and it now operates in the United States at. An ESA generation where the price that they get half the cost of extraction it's not going to go on like that indefinitely. So all these elements that make up they advanced sectors of the economy are in in limbo at the moment that they're not likely there's nothing much you can do just by pouring money into the firms you can keep the firm's alive that you can't make their markets function you can make it. Profitable for them to produce with their accustomed to producing so that whole sector needs to be reorganized mobilized to do things that we actually need doing like dealing with climate change, for example, or reconstructing our living environment so that we can handle the public health emergencies that are obviously over us now, and may well hit us again in the future. Those kinds of things require a reorganization of mobilization of the must've been sector. That's not where most of the jobs are most of the jobs are in services. The problem in services small and medium businesses is that I'm in a service sector you're in a service sector your job depends upon my willingness. To Buy your your the service you're providing. Your job depends upon my having an income and therefore me having a job. And the service sector courses in this enormous retrenchment. So, one has to think about how to structure that sector so that at least a significant part of it can keep going and the third thing is that Yes. All these incomes have become the economists call us a contingent they've all become uncertain how? Anxious over whether they have incomes in their incomes in many cases are being cut off the unemployment insurance that they got an April and ran out in June and July but their debts haven't have are not contingent. Their debts continue to pile up the rent bill is still there. The mortgage bill is still there. The utility bill is still there and all of these things a put them under enormous pressure end up, having putting them out of a house of place to live. As, soon, as they as the as the moratorium on foreclosures and evictions is lifted. And so one has to think about how to deal with that and that such a major reset because there's no reason why people who are who are put out of work by a public health emergency should be put out of their homes because they couldn't maintain incomes while they're while they're debts continued to pile up and so a fundamental injustice. L. As that problem develops the moment of being held in abeyance it's going to have to be dealt with because it will. It should be an enormous amount of of of popular resistance to enforce those kinds of. Of contracts to be fully forced and working out because he'd have a whole lot of mom and pop landlords who are known a few units and their incomes depend upon being able to get the the rental payments that they have. So you when has to work out a general resetting of the situation that can hold people more or less harmless in their situations simply pumping money into the economy could hold things up for a period of time, but it's not going to produce the recovery in my view. So the recommendations that you make sound a lot like the new deal to me, I mean a jobs guarantee that the duty to. So. Just, to go over them, I, mean you have the jobs guarantee you have rebuilding domestic manufacturing basically inventing a new economy to deal with climate change and putting people to work there. Do. You think that we're prepared to make such a large shift in the economy while I think the American people are prepared to do it. Sure. I think they're they're anxious for a kind of leadership that would give them the opportunity to show what they do. And that was true in Nineteen thirty-three as well. People were ready for the leadership Roosevelt provided it. Could you get it done in the present political environment? Well. That depends upon what the people decides to a November and whether they. Elected leadership gets the message and that's obvious is GONNA be. An under any circumstances a pretty tough. Row to Hoe but the new deal. So right example, the new deal showed that it is possible to reconstruct the economy and it wasn't that Roosevelt simply revived the existing economy of the nineteen twenties are the early nineteen, thirty s no. They they set out to to to change fundamentally the nature of American agriculture to provide economic developments for the American south and electrcity never been there before and to to rebuild the an tire what we now call infrastructure of the country, the roads. Bridges airfields, Schools Court houses, university buildings. It's all over the country, the legacy of the new deal, and this was imagined at the time and that strikes me as fundamentally what the the mindset we need to have in dealing with the aftermath of this because we're not gonNA get back whatever one thinks about the economy that existed man that developed over the last forty years and became really took a mature form in the last dozen years we're not going to get it back. It's not coming back in that form we're going to have to find new things for millions of people. Who've been working in offices you'll find themselves no longer needed Ra-. Millions of people who have been working and services that are not going to be revived very quickly to do and with lots of things to do there's no shortage has never a shortage of of of work to be done but we have to organize people to be able to do it and bring to bear the talents of the advanced sectors and their capacity to get them off doing things which people are not going to be needing and not going to be demanding an into doing things that are actually. Going to the future generations are going to say yes that was a good idea. What are the most surprising things to me about the run up to the election and I know you're you're economists not a political pundit but is that trump is polling so well in the economy? Do you have a read on oh. Yeah. That is a bit of mystery of, but is mostly. First of all that over the three and a half years before the pandemic. The economy played out reasonably well for him. The unemployment rate went down stock market went up. It's hard for people to overlooked at, and then his six appears to be outgoing his strategy to maybe succeeding. Is Persuade people that the pandemic was. Not. for which is not to be held responsible, and furthermore the idea of promoting which is that when it's over the economy will come back and there I think it's understandable. I A politician would express that message. Message to be believed it is. Fundamentally a likely that that's the case. Thank you for coming on here I. It's such an. Intense important issue and sort of shocked by the amount that it seems like normal people are not paying attention to the long-term effects. This is going to have I. Don't think I think a lot of normal people do understand that the long term effects are going to be very serious, but they have no voice of for For making that concern concrete. You need to have real alternatives out in front of people before they. Yeah well, Jamie Galbraith. Thank you so much for being here to discuss this important and in my opinion undercover topic. Thank you very much. That's our show deconstructed as production of first look media and the intercept our producers Zach Young. The show was mixed by Brian Pugh. Our theme music was composed by Bart warshaw. The intercepts editor in. I'm not soccer runner you can find me on twitter if you search my name if you haven't already please subscribe to the show, so you can hear it every week. Go to the intercept dot com slash deconstructed to subscribe from your podcast platform of choice, iphone android whatever if you're subscribed already, please do leave us a rating and review. It helps people find the show and if you WANNA give us feedback, email us at podcast at the intercept dot. com. Thanks so much. See you next week. Looking, for a new podcast listened to. Here's what we love courtesy of a cash recommends. Hello and welcome to which please a podcast about the Harry Potter World I'm Hannah McGregor and I'm Marshall Kazman. We're a couple of ladies scholars, real ones we have PhD's in literature and every fortnight we'll be reading the wizardy moral for a new lens plus we'll make jokes and force our deeply patient producer to a bunch of sound effects. You can find new episodes every second week wherever you listen to podcasts. Later which is.

James Galbraith Vice President Biden United States Jamie Galbraith Franklin Roosevelt Congress Obama Administration Naza Capitol Hill Lawyers deja Vu Ryan Grim White House reporter Biden administration soccer
 Coronavirus testing: NO tests available in London as cases rise; and is JK Rowling's new novel really "transphobic"?

The Leader

12:47 min | 9 months ago

Coronavirus testing: NO tests available in London as cases rise; and is JK Rowling's new novel really "transphobic"?

"Hello it's David here, substantial I to the leader. You'll never miss out on our daily, News analysis interviews and commentary just hit the button on your podcast provider, and if you feel so inclined, give us a rating to now from the Evening Standard in London. This is the leader. Hi I'm David Moslem not a single online. Kovic test is available in London he spent about five thousand. China book attest everywhere in London it was simply. Debatable check back later. Still Manchester available. Reporter Rachel tried every borough tells us how the full scale of the crisis is being revealed and the references to him wearing women's clothing over we slice it today. Equally, I wouldn't be surprised if depending on your views up what she said whether you could read into Evening Standard's Vicky Frost read. JK. rollings new Robert Galbraith novel is he really transphobic? Take it from the evening standard at a Tokyo call him. This is the leader for the whole thing pick up the newspaper had to stand a Doku UK slash comet. In a moment, you can't get an online cova test in London. No tests found. That's the message you'll get if you try to a walk in or drive in couvert test online in London we know because the evening standard tried every one of the city's thirty, two boroughs. Meanwhile, the number of cases recorded in the UK went up to four thousand yesterday. The prime minister admits the testing system has huge problems. Editorial. Column on something done about it. It's imperative that people who fear they have covered symptoms are able to be checked as quickly as possible. In the absence of a vaccine. That's the only effective way to stop infections spreading the prime minister says that schools shouldn't send whole classes or people bubbles home and said child has had a positive test but tower enough come this work. If there's nowhere for them to be tested, it's a shambles. The principal cause of this mess is, of course, organizational and administrative failure by the government on those tasked with delivering the system. But what's not helping either is the lack of clear consistent messaging from ministers. The prospect of a second national lockdown, which must be avoided if possible was being quashed today by ministers but if London and the country as a whole is to overcome the current spike and infections. Prevent further restrictions the government from the prime minister down must end the testing chaos and get a grip of its message to. A reporter Rachel Buffet spent the last couple of days researching this and she's with me now, Rachel. You tried them all every borough in the city. What happened say yesterday we spent about five hours. Trying to book a test everywhere in London. Using, residential postcard for each. And there was none available anywhere. We went. He'd be redirected yesterday to tests outside of London. It was simply not debatable check back later. Still. Not Test available. At again, this morning as well. Yeah. Again, this morning that was. Sort of eighteen available for a walk in center in Kensington. But again, when we tried to book that that was it the slots for booking she came up and this really is just exposing how difficult this crisis is particularly as we have a situation where you know the prime minister has said. CHILDREN SHOULDN'T! Be! Taken off out school Unless their entire bubble is a task but now parents get a test you spoke to apparent in to what kind of trouble will they heaven? Yes. But I quasi parents A couple of in story know they had to go huge round trip is three hours to EPSOM. Paradise boats you had today at just to get a test and they were you know saying alarms midnight waking up refreshing the government page days. Together, test others we spoke to would actually just. Pay For private tests which cost over one hundred pounds just so they can get their kids but to school and they don't have to sell vice sleep two weeks and I think the thing is as well. You know kids especially young kids they get a little time and you know the constantly got colds and coughs and things like that So love tests you know people have that tested negative, but they can't risk it and they have stated time of work on. which has a huge impact on incomes well, for low people this just it's just a huge disparity across the UK as well. So you know we try to protests in Scotland putting in Scottish codes on his ones available immediately go get one in half an hour until of Aberdeen Dundee. That's all fine. But trying to get one in London is just impossible and is there anything being done about it? I hear them might be a new rationing system in place yes and that`ll Be Announced today that there's going to be rationing system where he workers teaches HSA workers camera because. They will get priority protests which can only be a good thing but. There are so many key wikus, huge amounts, people, h HFS and teaching schools, and there are so many patients covid while Kiwi status the the still going to be a huge number of people needing tests all the time. especially. Love Them. We'll have children who come home be on Ben their whole house openly tests. I mean, hopefully it will help but. Donate. So what was the health saying about? All this Donald tells the saying you know they're adding tests all the time they go team hundred, thousand tests day. But when he speak to actual people. There's no one I spoke to. The said Yep was able to just go and get a test. It was so easy in the last two weeks I mean full children stopped back at school. Yes. It was easy to get test but now the children's died back at school it's just very, very difficult especially in the capital. Next when Cultural Figueras do say things that you very vehemently disagree with that just change your relationship with Iraq I. Think it does make you look at averages different, Vicky, frost on JK rollings new novel. Looking for a new podcast listened to. Here's what we love courtesy of a cast recommends. Hello and welcome to which please podcast about Harry Potter world. I'm Hannah McGregor an I'm Mersal Guzman we're a couple of lady scholars real ones we have PhD's in literature and every night we'll be reading the wizardy world for a new. Lens. Plus we'll make some jokes and force our deeply patient producer to add a bunch of sound effects you can find new episodes every second week wherever you listen to podcasts. Later which is. Recommends. Under the pseudonym Robert Galbraith JK rollings has dropped her new novel. The fifth in the CORMORAN strike series walked straight into another row over alleged transphobia. An early review of trouble blood claimed its moral is never trust a man in address. MISRULING has been a high profile skeptic on transgender rights, but the book is nearly one thousand pages long. Is it really all about that today in the Evening Standard's Vicky? Frost actually read it. Vicky. Is it as JK rollings opponents claim transphobic? Controversy about this book. So Kate's off of the Telegraph Review, the heart to reis book as a having a mobile that seems to be never just demand in address and I think we can be really clear that that is not the moral of this novel. However, a D. thing the awesome questions POPs for some ranges of this book and you know Jake Rare laying has spoken about sex and gender in a way that some people have really characterizes transphobic I'm they may read her decision to have a serial killer who Cross dresses in in order to gain the trust of his female victims. It would be unsurprising if some people didn't read that. In a certain way and I take my that you can necessarily Split Works Nusa I think initial subserve brewery and appreciated that the serial killer was absolutely the story in the center of the Book and actually he's knowledge and also you know the references to him wearing women's clothing. A very slicer today. So is not is not a central premise of the book tool, but equally, I wouldn't be surprised if them in depending on your view of what she said whether you can read into it. Would it even be possible for JK ruling to release anything without people going through it line by line looking for confirmation of their view regardless of what side the are on the transgender debate now, to is a great supportive place to be I mean I didn't. Make, that any better Ikea so. I. I, know there's people people who grew up with Harry Potter books and have held them very close to the heart says generation obliged I am not. Generation with very hoods by. Her remarks. I'm not sure how they relate to her as an unauthorized now and do you think you know when coach will figures d say? Invite them disagree with. otake stumbling. On Defense Than that just change your relationship with Iraq. I think it does make you looked averages different than. The big question of a he is is any good it? Certainly? Very. Long. Is Very very, very long. Azam pages long almost. One. Of those is still is not comfortable to read to hard-backed. Charles Crop up somehow. So if any good, I'm not state a massive writing fan I. You know I didn't grow up reading them and I don't think have rights. Brilliant. She is a good sport. And I do think the strike books. Are decent actually I'm a I love a criminal. Love a crime for La and I find a comber in in a really compelling debris lights and I think the characters ray while with it on that basis this is a good novel because she managed to take those characters on a really interesting journey and I really enjoy what to demand of. An engineer Robin actually die foreign assistant as an assistant rallies as well, and it's helped by some fantastic onscreen portrayals of them from Hamburg and Holliday Grainger so they had to you wanting to be on. Site I've been novels great on the plotting side it is. This is them taking on that first cold case it's A. Case of disappear. Would have a caucus notary forty years ago and just did an. Innate of the really good the refocused the closest crime novels on that and Is it is I. Mean you did see it with the Harry Potter books as well. Right. They got longer serious progress that people become too big for you to edit hats I did books but. You slighting feel like, maybe that's what happened here possibly. And that's a leader you can keep up with all the latest developments for the Evening Standard Live blow, which will find that standard Dokodo UK. We also have morning briefings available at seventy. You're smart speaker just answer the news from the Evening Standard. This podcast is back tomorrow at four PM.

London Vicky Frost prime minister UK Harry Potter Rachel Buffet reporter David Moslem Manchester Tokyo Iraq Robert Galbraith Robert Galbraith JK China Dokodo UK HSA principal Kensington Holliday Grainger spike
Isabel Galbraith is Growing at Her Own Pace

Comedic Pursuits

52:45 min | 2 years ago

Isabel Galbraith is Growing at Her Own Pace

"Yeah. Welcome to another episode of comedic pursuits podcast. I'm your host as always that pain. And this is the podcast Ray sit down with comedians in the DC area. Maybe no them. Maybe don't. But we talk about their history, and they share some wisdom. We share some laughs. It's a good time. A lot of crazy stuff going on in DC this week. Even though I'm not living there. I'm still connected through the social media. And there was like a huge influx of new players entering the herald program. There's three new Harold teams. And so many of my friends have gotten into the program. I'm so stoked many of which who performed and we're in stick my stand up show for improv so's really cool to see those two worlds combined and to see so many talented people get into the program also out sick surviving. In my herald team that I left behind in DC, I was member of for about half a year. They're going to be around for another season. So be sure to check them out and all the other teams on on herald night and rest in peace all of the teams that are retiring lizard, girl, heirloom in captain PHD. You guys were awesome. And allow those players are still remaining in the program. So shout out to them and shadow tell anybody who who made it through the auditions, it's it's no walk in the park. We talk about a lot and past episodes, and it took myself three times to get into the program. So for all people that made it through you guys, rock and are hilarious and now's your chance to follow up and have some fun on herald night. And if you didn't make it into the program, you know, fear not everybody kind of goes through that on for. Definitely failures a huge part of comedy and a another huge part to it is being resilient. And and you know, if that doesn't work out then find your own path. So speaking of someone who is finding their own path in his also hysterical. I got to sit down with Isabelle Galbraith in this episode today. She was previously on mad align herald team that then became an ensemble. She had some really fun stuff going on out. Dan, Milliken Starlight Shibam. I don't even think we touch I'm not in the Sepah sewed. But that was my first introduction to her. She is hysterical quirky and super suites. And she also does do oh with Jordan. So if you are into that, we talk about it in the upset, but if you're into seeing that if you haven't already they're gonna be performing on April sixth over at wit and is also performing with vintage at with. On March thirty first couple, quick plugs. There this ups great. We're we get in the super nerdy stuff. A lot of stuff which listening to it back when I was editing. I was like, this is awesome. There's like a plethora of improv information in here, and she's just very well-spoken very nice delightful. So I hope you guys really enjoy the sewed. I know I sure did. So without further ado, the Isabel Galbraith episode growing up. My parents really liked comedy the family. We watched Cosby show family ties Roseanne as I got older. Like, my dad kinda got me into a key loved Beavis and Butthead so at wash that with him, and my brother, I would stay up late Saturday Night Live, and these were the years would like will Farrell and Sharyo Terry Rachel draft and all this good people. So I love Saturday Night Live I love, Molly, Shannon, all of her like, Mary Katherine Gallagher. Sketches where my favorite, and when she would do NPR with on aghast IRA love, those so funny, I'm over my dad lifts running downstairs on the computer to be like Isabelle, the PR sketches on that we both like, you know. So I ran up and then turn out to be the one with Alec Baldwin sweaty balls. But I was like twelve and my just watching my dad, we both watched it stone-faced. And then finally he burst out laughing at some point. Because it was so funny. But it was so awkward it as making me blush. So yeah, you're up in Silver Spring. Yes. Maryland awesome. That's cool. Lhasa blinks or to I have younger, brother Rubin. Who now lives in Portland, Oregon loves it out there. And then my little sister jewel lives in Chicago. Awesome. Very cool. That's weird. So then did you do any? Did you like any acting or musical stuff like in like middle school or high school? I did was I did ballet very seriously eighteen so like, I was my main hobby. And I wasn't naturally. Good added are talented. It was just like something my mom, put me into got very stubborn and stuck with it. So I never got the chance to do school plays, which I think would have been more fun a lot more fun. But at least we would do a story ballet every year, which was usually like Cinderella or wizard of Oz. And we couldn't talk during them. So we kind of had to act stuff out physically am, I wasn't really much of a ham. Then I'm still now. I remember I was playing the munchkin mayor and my teacher quake Hamid up is about him enough. Yeah. That was my only the to-. Yeah. That's still that's still like a dedicated art focusing on overshirt. Did you do were you writing at all during this time away? I started writing poetry very young and kept it up all the way through high school and college and went to grad school floor. It got in the. Awesome. But I don't write anymore it in lost its joy somewhere along the way fears after I graduated from my in the program just stopped feeling like I was making progress. I felt getting my voice, I didn't even have anything to say, really. So I was just like what am I torturing myself with this? I'm going to put it down. And then coincidentally right around the same time. I went and saw show with a friend just for fun and couldn't believe how fun it looked. And I was like let me sign up for a class. So it was really nice to kind of put one art form down in mmediately. Find one that I always like even more shirt. So okay. So you went to college wear after school. I went to university of Maryland, just like twenty minutes from my parents house. And I loved it. Cool. I'd had a bad time in high school. So college was like, I say, it's learned fun. Okay. Cool like your major English. Yeah. Jim a minor dance dance dance. Uh-huh. Continued that did nearly no you could minor major in dance. That's cool. Yeah. I mean Maryland's program was all modern. So I was like oh good. Maybe I'll be good at this. Now. It was tough. Yeah. Very tough. It wasn't good at it either. But stayed stubborn minored in it. That's awesome. Yeah shape. That's cool. Did do they have an improv program? They did. I was totally unaware of it. Okay. They might now. Okay. But I didn't know about improv God. Until like, I wanna see my league twenties early thirties. Like even the year. I lived in Chicago, totally didn't know that improv notion. Shame. Oh, wow. Crazy. So did you move? Did you move to Chicago after you graduate from college after from college? I got really internship with Chesapeake Bay foundation. Okay. Actually, moved out to the eastern shore. Maryland lived on this really remote peninsula in the middle of the day as I loved it. One of the best six months my life. But then it ended and then I'm Chicago. Okay. And what was your easing Vereshaka, my three best friends from college and moved out there Diego Diego her? Really? Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Freshman year of college. We lived in the same hall. I should sit down. Yeah. He's hilarious performer. I know into it. Yeah. Yes. He watched me do shows like five years on finally Diego. You'd be great at the no way. Oh, wow. That's awesome. I know I basically followed him in two other friends out there live with them for year. I waitressed and and then I got into grad school. So then I moved to Columbus, Ohio. Thank for three years. Kind of annexed back experiencewise. Okay. And I moved back to this area. Okay. Awesome. Any comedy on yours? I think I went to one second city show, but it was like more sketch and improv. Yes. So typically back in two thousand one I wanna say two thousand two so yes in probably had not exploded. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Probably awesome. Like, I know I saw steam Corrales gonna say that's like right around. Yeah. Data's out. Steve colts Unical. I know what if I did while. So what was I gonna say? So then okay. So you move good Ohio venue move over to back to back to do. You have a job lined up or no school. I finished school. Okay. Okay. After grad school, actually, then moved to Oberlin Ohio and Todd Oakland for semester hated it. So then I moved back to DC didn't have a job lined back when my parents, and then basically something like five or six years working like an editor for various companies topping from company to company because I was unhappy these jobs, so I would like work for year in the leave. And after like six years of that my mom was like, why don't you try teaching again because I taught during grad school in hated it. Yeah. That was your experiences in Ohio. I was like twenty teach is freshman composition. And the students were eighteen I was like twenty two or twenty three not much older walked all over me and bad bad experience. So but moms like you're older, Allen's you try it again. And she she works as an administrator Comrie college Koshi kind of helped me get in there as an adjunct and turned out loved it. So that was a community college, and everyone was like motivated as heck to improve the writing so school they were so plight, and so grateful and felt like I was actually being really affective and helping them a so I stayed there for like four years, but working as an adjunct paid like peanuts. And I really was not keeping things together. So I tried to find a fulltime job in that time and Howard nice. That's awesome. How long have you been our for just a year and a half? Yes. I did. Yes. I love that love it. Yeah. Awesome. Teaching English to freshman. Still really made any jump though. It's funny to think about how I am. So teaching freshmen compet weirdly like it so much that sometimes I wonder if I even wanna teach poetry or literature anymore because those aren't so helpful for the day to day world, whereas writing just -ccomplish article. Yeah, kinda really liked the practical side of like seeing you know, clear changes in improvement. So my students structure and everything, you know. That's great. So your first experience with like improv was besides like that second city show was a witch. Oh, yeah. I think so. Yeah. Which show it was number the fist show because what really struck me was that. So I went with actually Diego and a friend of his and the friend had done improv. So he told us a little about the rules before handle. So as I was watching the teams I was like, oh my gosh. They're like denying each other a bunch. I see them make mistakes a little bit my judging brain, you know, but, but I also saw that they're having fun and the audience was having fun audience was roaring. It's kind of like dislike whole little secret. Thing that's going on that you had no clue about. So you see this fish show. You're like Zossen. Yes. I classic right way. I think I did. And I'll just by yourself. Yeah. But myself, and I also didn't have the confidence that I was funny. So I kind of I remember telling Jay go like I'm just doing it to meet guys. Because also I noticed at the show how many guys where on stage and audience is like, this is wonderful. Yeah. So I remember joking with him that I wasn't even going to participate in class. I'm just gonna be like I've good. And then just sit and watch him watch to see. Yeah. Yeah. Those my plan. But then obviously, I wasn't gonna really do that. And my one eight teacher backpedals called one a Curtis Ray. And he's in New York now, I think, but he was so great. It was just so much fun from like right away like day one. I loved it. Couldn't believe how like funny, everyone was and all the activities. We did we were all just dying laughing the whole time, and you leave and you feel. So much better like laughed for two and a half hours. And he really made it loose steaks. And there is no like ego involved in that level. It was just like let's be like kids play, and I just loved it. So there was no hesitation, I went through the curriculum. Although no, that's not true. There was hesitation because after the next level back then was one b which was character or maybe two character. Anyway. But after took character, I kind of started to doubt myself a bunch because I was tough class for me. So I did take a like a break. And then I went back, and I can't remember if I retook character if I moved onto level three, and I had that one with Mark shell font, and that was seen work. And that was that was the most I learned for short those three yet. To to Dave Johnson Johnson. So yeah. Marx class was insanely helpful, and brilliant and Jordana within it. That's where I met her. Oh, I was gonna say is anybody like anybody that you became really good friends with level one level two there? Yes, I've been friends, but no one stayed on in family. But. From three joy, Anna, and Dan Milliken where both of my class. So y'all kinda bonded and. Yeah. And J J J was in that class too. Yeah. We had a great class. And so, yeah, then I took the next levels and then I joined team called hot and sweaty. Which actually have some good, folks. But it wasn't the best team a lot of drama. Do ready exists, and you did already been through a few rations with some really good people. Like Caroline, Blair pennant had been on it. There are more than on it. And I was like, oh, yeah. Wanna join with these people done dishes. Did I had this? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ansi Safavi and Johnson was coach. So I wanted to work with him because he's so talented. Yeah. But then didn't really love be team. After that. I think I joined cake bagel which is data tied and that was good. And then I shouldn't for herald didn't make the first time relation to than I did make his meddling. Okay. Yes. You got a medal on when it was. You got a medal. Yes. Yes. John Lynn Mueller was the coach and four of us joined the moment me John Carroll. Patrick's Levin lists all joined it once. It's awesome get on. And then sorry sorry. But after Mark for like level four and five. Let's see. Oh level four. Joe, you know. And then there was no level five back then but one I had with Matt winter alter. Oh, okay. Cool. Who was also dating at the time. Oh, yeah. Teacher. Yeah. Class. No, we were already out. I think it was just like let's been time together and be of the same room. You know? Yeah. It was great. Yeah. Yeah. Nope. We have no problems with it later things grand. So. Yeah. People in the class. No. That you we kept his. Yeah. It's not weird everyone in the small community, and you meet people in relationships start, you know, so okay. So so you go through and then now you're on that line, and you're on lose the bagel. Okay. Big cake, bagel. He's on cake, bagel. That was Jordana me. Dan milliken? Nice. Safai who's now in another state. Julia rocky and just Schramm. Okay. And who's Ryan curls? Ex-boyfriends? That was it. I feel bad from leaving someone out. The core bagels awhile. How did you come up with the name? While vote guy. My choices lost. Yeah. We would have been seltzer but seltzer on okay? Oh, well, bagel. You can use that in the future. If you need Cape, bagel. So. Just keep using. That's cool. That's fun. What was your guys like format? A whole bunch of different lines. It's very experimental. Who's a coach we have a lot of different coaches. Dan miller. Jon murphy. Nice. Yeah. And we played for two or three years. We did a ton of shows. And yeah, I guess it's really where I cut my teeth on you know, we would do like openings and drop premises. We did that a lot. There was one cool opening we did came one person walking Evans walking. And then maybe one person starts talking and then everyone stops. But the we did it is the person started talking then kept walking. But everyone else was frozen, and they would kind of just say a line about something or about their character. And then someone else would start walking. And then they'd say lines a week, each align. And then we might have repeated that two more times that's crazy now that that'd be so much, but we did really short lines. And then we would start the show so like to play the different ways to like either build characters or premises or. But there's also a lot of organic stuff in there to go. It was a really perfect in deem. I loved it. Are you more an organic person or premise organic? Yeah. Yes. Over the years having taken workshops for different people. I've come to realize that the style of is more the discovery in the moment. And I think the person who I got me into that was calling Doyle from dummy Ohka she now maybe LA, but was in Chicago for a long time student of TJ Dave's. Oh, and she came to workshop, and then Rachel Hamilton came and did a workshop last year, and she's out in San Francisco, but she pleased with David L ski, and he did a workshop last this year or twenty seventeen that I took and it was a two day workshop like eight hours a day Johnson Murphy, and I took it at the improv with a bunch of other people, and it might it just blew my mind and. But it kind of build on what? Rachel Hamilton calling. Doyle had all said, which is just like to truly earn the scene you need to build it brick by brick very slowly. And with a lot more listening and repeating of words, so Davis ASI has this amazing technique. He calls it the technique beneath the technique. Okay. Similar Alexander theory. If you've ever done dance. Okay. Well, no anyway. So his ideas that like if I set a line to you. You're going to love or hate what I said, you know, he kept saying it's a by love it or hate it. But he says it's usually funnier to withhold from the person with a once. Okay. Find like, you know, I really she could stay another hour. You could be like I do not want to another hour and just as simple as that. You're almost like repeating on my words, then I would continue to repeat the key words. But maybe or or rephrase it like. But it's just one measly. Our you know, and then you would be like this one measly. Our you is our I could be doing whatever. So he calls sisters. They're like synonyms. And if you keep going back and forth like that eventually one of us going to say something that just needles the other person and see your building tension by going back and forth. And then when the other person finally gets through to you and says something like hits your core. That's when the balloon pops. Now's when the scene really picks up heat because this is now your out of what he calls the force of exposition, and you're in the emotional clearing. Okay. And that's where you can dig into a motions and psychology and all the stuff to audience really wants to me. And you stop talking about our or the coffee or the whatever you were talking about at the top of a hard. Rob it. Yes. Now, it's about oh, you know, you know, I like making me waste your time. You know, you have to own something that's kind of unpleasant. You know, like, yeah. I do think our with me is better than an hour with anyone else, you know, or things like that. And now we can take into our relationship, which is really the only important thing in the Seton and. Then repeat? So I just love that. And that's now the only way I wanna play. And it's tricky because I remember after taking the workshop I had a practice, and I started a scene. No, my seem started. And I responded in a way where I tried to withhold what they wanted and the coach, and I say who stopped and said, you're creating problems is about and I thought to myself am or am. I just withholding what they want. You know, why is that a problem? So I don't really understand when people say, oh, you shouldn't have like arguments or you shouldn't, you know, be angry or something. Like, I don't wanna see a million receives like if everyone just immediately agrees with each other will or obviously we have two facts. But if everyone if I'm like, please give me fifty dollars, and you go, okay. Scenes over right? We have no tension. What are we going gonna do? And through this. Workshop he kept going Dave scenes over scenes over gave them what they wanted us over. He probably don't want us all the problems. I see so many people playing on stage solving the problems, and it's happened on teams I've been on ice to do it before I learned about it. But now when I see people doing it, I get so irked because I like fuse over, you know, where the tension go, and you didn't get anything the motion. So yeah, I'm pretty obsessed with Dave is asking not. That's awesome. That's really cool. My latest thing that I've been doing which plays into that style to is just making sure to listen more. Yeah. And making sure to. I think I was more Premacy for awhile. More. So the nervous hill is fine. But is more like I have to like being like I have to come in with something the exact same way. Just let premises in. My back pocket before almost any shell. Great. They never moved out. Great. It's like a parachute. Yeah. I mean say like a safety net. And so like to go out there and be like going out there. Lot more often lately. And being like, I've nothing good. I'm just gonna listen, and I might come in with like an emotion or something or just do something Hamilton do with like stand with our backyards in partner, and then turn the crazy post this. But just turn and be like breed. The other person's doing enough right now. Like, I used to think it wasn't. But this is enough. In fact, if I was doing something and seeing that would be harder. I mean, I think I'm also. Yeah. And then trying to pick up on what the partners doing. That's hard though. I'm still struggling with that how how was herald for you Jones liked it. But yes, so challenging because I definitely think just a memory thing. Like, I had trouble. Just remembering what the first three beats were. And then I get paranoid that in the second. That'd be missing pulls. Because I'd forgotten the scene. So I didn't love that part about it. But I loved the first three scenes were allowed to be a little slower and more patient and can breathe and confide on relationships. In fact, should focus on relationships. So I was felt like I did my best work at them. First beats because I could play real, you know, and that was fun stressing about what other stuff to know. Right. Yeah. I mean to the point where I think in the early days, I often wouldn't get to the discovery quick enough. But you know, you're learning the only type of second beat. I liked was analogous for some reason. I really like mapping onto other stuff. Is just was like if something was set in the business world, it's fun to map the personal world. If it's the personal worlds when the map into the military. I don't know I just joined that. So and the third beats tying altogether. I was terrible. I would just mostly I there's a funny photo. You can totally tell him just like sidling on from the side because we were all supposed to join by the very end of my often couldn't find a way in. I would just kind of like Seidel on. Really not saying anything and I liked crew games. I really enjoyed a lot. Awesome. And. Openings fun opening. Okay. We did my favorite was do logs where just two of us walk out and talked to the camera. I mean, huge Christopher guest fan to imagine that you're doing one of those people and just talking with a blast. And we also did a close quarters herald where we tried to make all the scenes being like the same area, and it was confusing. The time stuff is confusing. So I didn't love that. And we would already overcomplicate our shows so like have really complicated plots, and then also try to trap the time line and stuff was just too much for me. Honestly. When did you start your duo with Trente? We started for show was like a Christmas Eve or holiday time two years ago. I guess twenty sixteen so we've been doing it been or was it just twenty seven team. I don't know the one did you? Yeah. Okay. Not long. Okay. But my favorite improv, you know team today. I love performing with her 'cause she's so talented, obviously. But also, a great listener. And just we have a good yin and Yang for sure I think because she's very bold Greek character work, you know. And then I think I support her ideas, we take each other idea seriously and get we think we get to the heart of thing and I love so you're bold as well on moves. I guess you go back and forth. And yeah, there was really goofy shows you can tell you guys like each other, which is nice. So it ends up being like you guys trying to shelter laugh like that. Yes. Very like jive Turkey dynamic cool. Yeah. Thank you. It's been just wonderful and we've been doing scenes, which I love and definitely allow me to try to practice that method of letting tension bills and let it poss- perfect for that get into characters get into the relationships and we've played like we played to officers show. You played two strippers show. We played we've been high school lab partners. And lots of other fun things, you know, couple watching a movie, and so yes, just fun. Not knowing who are going to be. But knowing that it's going to be very enjoyable twenty minutes or so. Yeah. In your your get is like asking about a movie. Yeah. Even line from a movie. That's right. Yes. That's awesome. Yeah. Around on line when it got promoted to a house team. Is considered. I forget I mean. Yeah. Health teamer house psalm bowl, those that was neat. Yeah. We've been herald team for like a year and a half. We have some good coaches Cape Times push us, really, hard and. And Greer was our coach and yeah. So we got promoted, and we mmediately let's see we've done some formats to be no we started with the motto seen, but we did them on scene for a long time. I feel like when I start seeing you guys perform it was. I don't think I ever saw you guys when you're a Harrelson. Okay. Yeah. Kind of like after that point. Okay. But yeah, I remember seeing guys to mum's. Yes. Those are fine. They're tough to do with the big group. We have like eight people share the space. Oh my God. But we did learn to really share the space. I remember after one show someone told me that he felt we we pass the ball to each other. Really? Well, you know, now the feeling to get to that point. But took a long time, we were each other a lot for sure. But eventually you realize it's frustrating. You miss with being said, and but yeah, no. It's just challenging too. Find reasons to enter like good seagoing going with floor people, and that are four of us still needing to enter and then it's like, your then your aunt Lydia are then you're like, you know, I'm another student in this class here, you know, and it would work, but it's tricky the the format that lizard girl has right now. I don't know if you've seen it or not. But basically, it's anytime they like reference something in the past they cut to it. It's like pretty slow pretty flowers. Actually, there's ten people on that. So for for to have that base. You're gonna have like like a solid maybe like four or five characters. But then everyone else kind of has to like wedged themselves in if they're going to be they have to end up being playing the pedals because we are to Medellin loved it. And there were nights though, where I was just like, okay. I'm basically going to be a player, but that's can be really fun. You get to jump into pebbles latte. You know, and then other to being in the bay seem so yeah. Doable. Awesome. Such a good participating able to follow the fun. Yeah. For sure that's great. So I know you recently left Madeline, and then have you been on any other new teams? I haven't talked about. I think you're on like I wrote that maybe. Yeah. I I've been playing with them it feels like more of a ad hoc than any team for sure you don't really practice the format for that. Essentially talked about on the podcast yet is. Jordana Jordana organize it. But like you said it's different lineup. Pretty much showed show and people present. Like pieces of writing from their youth in whatever context that is. And they read it they perform I think they an audience member grabs it out of the bag everybody submits, whatever their present in a bag. They take it out of the bag present it usually end up having like three people three or four people present their works. And then you guys do a little fun run of of scenes after. So that's yeah. It's really fun. I was surprised by health on. It was like low stakes. It is. Yeah. And people's rating inspiring, that's what I didn't pay. But like people are bringing bringing an old terrible poems. Some people bring in old essays or even journal entries, and they give you so much fodder. And I do get nervous before that show only because I have to switch into premise mood, and that's not easy to you know, remember what it's like to tuck things away. And but just like I said the stuff is so good that. It's just like, Ooh, I wanna play without are to definitely go without emotion. You know? So we've had some fun shows. That's cool. That's awesome. Any other teams that I'm not mentioning? No, okay. Cool. Yes. I miss it. I mean, I'm not doing that much aside from Utah data, which is like once or twice a month really school. The flip side is giving me time to work on my script. So let's talk about that. So so you're is this. I don't know anything you just mentioned if so I don't this is new info for me yet. It a TV comedy hour, TV comedy scripts. I've always wanted to write one, and I've actually written a couple of others, but those didn't really feel right? So a couple years ago, I had this idea for one, and I really liked the idea ever since I've been basically writing it. I wrote fibers accepts odes. That's the idea. And I wanted to do it. That's while. And now, I'm going back and focusing on just the pilot and trying to make it stronger, and basically, so it's called city mouse. Okay. Do you a little story the city mouse and country mile? So I just titled because I was born here in the area. But inside I do not feel like a city person at all feel like a country person. Okay. But it'd be totally random of me to pick up and move to us Virginia because why my family's here roots here. Why would I up and go for sure and no one talks about that? No, one talks about like does your in our nature align with where you're living. Now, I know a lot of people from the country one of them to the city 'cause they know they thrive in a city the energy. I hate the energy here. It's really. Yeah. To Chesapeake and react. When I lived in the Marsh on the eastern shore. I was the happiest so that's crazy. I know all the time. So the where I got this idea for the show I treated myself a couple years ago to Virginia by myself. I got an Airbnb got out there and loved it had the best weekend. I got back to DC so depressed, like, why am I depressed like oh. Because on the around all these honking horns and busy streets, and like people everywhere, and I just missed the, you know, nature. Yeah. So in the pilots like a a wish fulfillment. Because it's about a woman my age from DC who decides to move to West Virginia just like what I'm too scared to do. Great and starts in life there. So it's kind of a hero's journey and structure. It's also kind of a fish out of water story because if I were to move to West Virginia like I was born and bred in the city, you know, I don't know how to fire. I don't like bugs. I you know, what I mean. Allergy? I'd be my element, and like could I hack it? You know? I don't know am I'm romanticizing it probably on the other hand. Maybe I'd adapt. And love it. You know? So this is kind of what I wanted to explore like as she lives there. She to adapt to the countryside and love it like she fought she would. And then when I was writing it I wanted to write in some friends for her in West Virginia, new friends, so I decided to pick my six favorite improvisers and in LA on improper humans and things and right in their voices. Because I thought it would make writing the dialogue easier and it did. So I have people in mind for all the characters. I think that's why I was able to write like six episodes. As cool. Yes. As far too. Yeah. So I had my lead imagining Rebecca Drysdale like my favorite improviser from Dr Bill and for the six friends, I had Tammy Sager love her heard mazing. Niece. Nash who alone reader nine one one and getting on. She's one of my favorite actresses and Bessie Sadahro. She's on improper humans a lot. Yeah. And then for the guys have not Besser just in love with. I think he's funniest. The two other guys Andy daily, I love and Tim meadows. Oh, he's like my favorite improper humans guest. Besser anti-delhi would just be amazing together. They are making the artery to go on improper humans all the time old fulltime. Exactly. So and they all have clear voices able to write in their voices. And yeah, so it's just a blast. And but are hard startling little with the pilot because you had to I had a table region where had friends read the script. And if they were so nice of them to do and. Yeah, just like took notes as they read it out haw everytime sold. I came home, and I can call the Ha's. But what I took away that people were unclear as to why this protagonist is suddenly now moving to West Virginia. I didn't have a good answer. I mean, I knew that. It's the the sense of wanting to align her like inner love of nature with where she lives to the primary motivation. But people were like why? Now why today and I didn't have a good answer for that. Okay. So realizing I might need to make it about her job or money or trying to figure that out and trying to be realistic with it because like I've had a lot of money struggles. So like one of my obstacles to moving to us Virginia's just the money. Like sure or I have to find a job, I four sure. But in my original pilot. I kinda glossed over that I didn't mention her job. I mean, she's in my script. She's our teacher. But I didn't find a new job for her in West Virginia. You know what I mean? So maybe I should. Working on. Now, I'm making character bios for each of the friends. Okay. And her because I felt like they were a little generic even though I was reading through those amazing people's voices. So I'm rating character by one. That's cool it out wash my model, but more that way. Yes. You taken any like, Scott trading or scriptwriting classes on teaching myself man, using the internet and picking the brains of people, I know who've written shows for sure. I've emailed. We'll Hinds about it. He's been helpful Moshe too. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I took some workshops with him and. When. No, no. He came down here when people can put on a Chinese menu workshop. Oh, so helpful with. Yeah. We fucked up. Gosh, it was early on in my, you know, could have been like five years ago or something probably before you around and he had us do this exercise with so helpful. It was based on improper humans, which was cool. So basically, we are on stools and people would sit on this tools and started seeing and then being the audience had to pick out the unusual thing for them to focus on what I learned is that everyone is different definitions of the unusual thing was unfortunate. But I guess that's why group minus important. And then we all we just it was a great workshop has so much so much from his book. If you read it, I have to mazing brilliant writer. Also, I love like anytime, he's on Assode or would I actually friends with Facebook? He'll really cool. He's just super funny. And I look up to them big time. Same of same think. It's us up to date with everything. Yeah. I wanna join another team. But just kinda be choosy. And wait until situation comes up with the people I wanna play with. And who knows what that'll be awesome, the one. That's great. Yeah. So what would your ideal fifteen you and three other like celebrities or like face improviser could. Okay. Great comedians, visors any any person. Okay. Me me in the three people, meaning Molly, Shannon. Okay. Nice. Lisa Kudrow and not Besser says a wacky team. Yeah. What would your team seltzer? I was just waiting to. Names in my folder, full yourself touch. My next question. There's ever a team name that you propose NCI day. Seltzer would obviously be one. But the one I'm thinking recently told me if it's too dark dental records ten til records, like death pleased identify people, and they have been for hundreds of years. Okay. I think it's interesting. But I don't know if that conjures up to more bit of a thing or not. But would you did you do you have an idea for like the get associated with? Oh, God what I could kind of go either. Yeah. People about their teeth. You know, like how jealous dental visit? Okay. You know, or? You could ask if you've ever identified a body. Depressing. That's crazy dark side comedy, my favorite nice. That's awesome. Go into a scene. You have to object work. What's your go to object? I just the blinds. Just the blinds one. Okay. Well, either I take two fingers and kinda like as if I'm opening a blind to look through, you know, interests or do the little thing on the side. Walk the. Yeah. Building tension in some way, or another. Yeah. No. It's just easy. I'm bad optic where okay. I guess it's just to herald team like your fictional herald team team to discuss so it's you plus nine other people old rules which people or my playing fictional characters from anything fictional characters from anything movies books. Tv shows fun. Okay. Data copperfield. He's like opera fuel yet, one of my favorite dickens characters. He is he just has like a crazy life. And so yeah, take him Homer Simpson. Hank hill Peggy hill. Still okay from and I'm would've won I'm going to pick. Lieutenant dangle play by Thomas Lennon favorites, I will pick. Kenny powers spend down. I know when you're talking about daily, I was just thinking. Yes, he's so good on that shows the principal Seve watch review his shown, no only. So I think you can buy the upsets on Amazon. Oh, it's like a showcase for him. Really? And so under appreciated. Okay. Yeah. You'll love it. If you like him. Yeah. I'm gonna pick the character. You might not know. So there was briefly a show called Catherine Kim, which originally was Austrailia, and they brought it to America and while Shannon's character. Oh, I love that character so cath, okay? On my herald team silk from the comeback. I would bring in Valerie cherish through this. Lisa Kudrow character and get one work. Bobby hill. Cares. This. Oh, let's see. The devil's dozen. Tension. That's awesome. What's been like one of your biggest aha moments within comedy? There's a workshop. Formats, I mean, the results gate workshop recently has been so I opening sure already talked about like how to build attention with denying, you know. But then when it pops you get into that police of the emotional connection like. That's what I'm still figuring out. So that's kind of what I want to take more workshops in in the future. So that's feels like a future a Halloween. But yeah, his workshop Rachel Hamilton's, which covered the same stuff 'cause they play together and calling Doyle's had the biggest aha moments for me. And then Marx class was where I learned so much that I had to create an acronym. Giordano always teases me because it doesn't spell a real word, but I had to have a shorthand for remembering the stuff. So the acronym was et mug. And it was each which was two things either. Gene emotion, t top of the scene to focus on the top of. Okay. It was meaning something it has to be something to you. When you say top of the scene. What do you mean by talking then I was trying to understand like to make whatever happened initially important focus on it. And they're not to gloss over it. Which is like a big Jordan anything to a workshop on that very thing. Yeah. Like when I took classes with her that was her big thing. And actually, we're focusing again on it out sick right now just like coming in and realizing the energy that the other person's bringing what you're bringing. Yeah. And then the first line out of each of your years it has enough. And you might think it does. But what's crazy is an audience member? I get so irritated when someone mentioned something and they never action. Yeah. Because I'm like, but that thing about the copy couples kind of interesting like benefit wasn't mind blowing I still kinda wanted to know about it. And it now realize it just a missed opportunity, and you're making it harder for yourself. If you're inventing inventing spent many years and fencing inventing a lot. Of it's nervousness. I'm playing. Throw out a bunch of things until it's funny. You know, but the more you're likely to know. Yeah. So so yeah. Okay. So that's top. This right 'em was meaning something like it has to mean. Something to care. You was universe. Like explore the universe March to that the environment woman. Yeah. And then she mug goal a goal. These are all like, very solid student. You're like juggle all this stuff, and it's hard. But my new mission now is just to kind of needle my partner at the top. You know, like like, I did a scene. There's a fun show. Ryan put together called daisy chain where he had like two people and do five minutes scene than let the stage in a new person came out, and they did a five minute Mona scene, and then one person left on came out like Portia chain. And so I did a seem Erica kunia. And he we're like. Fellow employees at a music store, and he really wanted. He was new to DC and wanted me to show them around the monuments. And I was like no I don't want to and he was really shocked taken aback like, but I spent the next minute or two cleaning wide and want to like, I don't wanna go. But different you say, you don't even need to justify it. But like it built a ton attention. And then later I invited him over to my place, and he was like, oh, you're not gonna take new the monuments. But you're going to invite me over I don't know something like it made that also much better because earlier like I have withheld from him what he wanted leader. When kind of when I gave him what his character wanted. It was great. Yeah. And so yes, it is good to have a mission. But I think it's best. If the mission can involve your scene partner, you know, total. What's been like your biggest or one of your biggest failures within comedy coming? I think didn't make it onto the herald team after the first try I got pretty discouraged really lost some confidence there. There was also a period I had coach was pretty rough. And I lost a lot of confidence than too. So think I don't deal well with like, well who deals harsh patik, some people some people actually like it. I think there's a way. To do it. Maybe that's it. But still a teacher, you probably understand it to where it's like you can you can give a positive put in the negative reinforcement with a positive. Yes. Positive like a compliment sandwich. I do that with my Susan said it works. Well, because like, socialize with people. This is. So some coaches that don't do that. Right. And part of the gets it because when you care about improv, and you want it to be good. You can get frustrated with students easily like I know this just from having classes 'cause like they're not applying what you're saying or whatever. And so I can kind of really understand that level of frustration. But on the other hand, the more I get into on the more. I'm realizing that like we're all Louis lowers unfolding at our own rates, and there's really no need to rush or push. So like, I think we all strive a little too hard. And I think we all judge each other and ourselves a little too much, and there's really no need to because we're all changing growing, evolving one minute doing something. Well, the next minute doing poorly, but like, you know, going. Yeah. So I mean, I really believe more in the nurturing approach, and I think that's what I thrive under your. So I think my hardest times where with coaches that didn't do that. And so I felt kind of I would leave practice and feel really like ashamed of the scenes, I Don I would replay them in my mind, I text with my teammates after and be like without terrible, you know, needing validation and. You know? It's just I don't know. I think a good coach doesn't let you leave practice feeling quite that bad. Maybe I dunno. I to UT ate a little bit. I did. Yeah. But I realized that when I'm teaching all day at Howard. I don't wanna teach. Yeah. So like a teaching at Howard just just just teaching classes takes out of me. I can't do anymore. But I just actually even Mark about maybe Kuching herald team of the future will be different because not like you have to come into teach a lesson plan. Totally different dynamic. Yeah. Actually looking forward to that. But I haven't done much coaching. Yeah. Agreed is that we also on their to them Risher. No, I was going to say start with breathing exercises. Like, that's for sure. Yeah. That's great. Or even thinking if I was coaching Harold team. I would try to maybe every practice with like one thing for each person to work on him one thing they're doing really well zone. Like that. Let's go. We have. Overcoming that stuff is just kind of like you like the being motivated to keep learning and just feel like for sure a perpetual student of of the artform everybody should. Yeah. Where can people find you like social media media really hates for media that I'm on it? I'm on Facebook. And I'm on Instagram. I think is. Either Isabel Galbraith all word or maybe his dot calibrate. I don't know of the two, and I'm not on Twitter, and coal and you ensure Dan still didn't shows we have I think maybe two next week and. Put us. Schori? Yeah. Suri gal. Yeah. That's what we're trying it out. Last days. We kind of like a law firm. We. It was like an inside joke because every time I looked at us in the early days. I submitted us as maturing Galbraith and every time she submitted us. She's minute us as Galbraith machinery, both being nice. But I think it sounds better. Just in terms of the rhythm, miss Shourie and Galbraith better than Galbraith ADEMA Shorey. So that's what we're going down. That's cool. I think they'll do it. Thank you for being. This is great time to talk shop love it. Awesome. Learned bunch of new stuff and. Yeah. So cool. Thank you so much.

DC Chicago Rachel Hamilton West Virginia Jordana Jordana Isabelle Galbraith Maryland Shannon partner Virginia Dave Johnson Johnson Isabel Galbraith Howard Curtis Ray Doyle seltzer Diego Diego Facebook Ohio
Whats mine is not yours

This Is Uncomfortable

32:15 min | Last month

Whats mine is not yours

"Heo before we get started. I wanted to share something pretty exciting so apple. Podcasts has a new program called spotlight. Where every month or editorial team chooses a podcast Spotlight and this month. that's us. This is uncomfortable were really pumped about it and wanted to share with the all I also just wanted to say thank you so much for listening and sticking with us and if you're new to the podcast welcome. I am very glad you're here if you want some recommendations on where to start. Two of my personal favorite episodes are why. Don't you fix your teeth. An instrument of sabotage. If you want to check those out all right thank you again for listening. And here's this week's show in the spring of twenty thirteen lindsay galbraith and her family were driving back to their home in minneapolis after a short vacation while they were gone there had been a crazy storm but they hadn't realized just how strong it was until they got back to their house and a tree fell on her house. I did not expect us. There's a huge silver maple next door and a giant branch that fell onto my house as they pulled into their driveway and survey the damage. They saw that. The tree had collapsed. The ceiling of her daughter's bedroom a tree falling on your house is great but it could really not have come at a worse time. Lindsay was six months pregnant and raising her two year old daughter while also going to school and holding down a part time job money was especially tight because her husband had recently lost his job and was also in school fulltime and now because of this tree they need to move into a rental house and figure out how to fix their roof and lindsay. New responsibility would fall to her. She basically ran the household. I owned a home. That i bought at the very very beginning of our relationship and so i own the house. All the bills were in my name and when he moved in with me whenever i need some money to pay whatever utilities or bills are groceries or whatever it was like i would just ask him and he gave me some. Instead of having joint finances lindsay was in charge of it all and when it came time to pay the bills pugh just let her husband know how much he needed a chip in but now since he wasn't working he gave her money. He got from his student loan disbursements and his unemployment checks to lindsay. Their system had been working fine but now this repair was going to make things extra tight so one evening while they were staying in that rental after she put her daughter to bed. Lindsay sat in the living room at a small round table poring over their bills. Trying to figure out how to make this all work. And i have my laptop open and i was looking at you know bank statements and just the money that i needed and looking at the last time that he had given me money. And it's just. I was like this. This isn't adding up. Wasn't adding up literally the the money that he was telling me that he was was spending or the money he said he had given to me fulfills it. Just it was like well. that's not. That's not right like undoing. The math here like literally. I'm looking at these bank statements. And i'm looking at my checkbook register and this doesn't make sense so lindsay turned to her husband who is sitting across the room on the couch. I knew in my gut that he was lying about something. And i didn't know what but i knew it. I'm mad as and welcome to this is uncomfortable a show for marketplace about life and how money messes with it this week trust finances and the aftermath of a betrayal lindsay and her husband. I met at a fish market where he worked. He was two and he was funny. He was very charming. They'd flirt with each other and eventually they started dating. Lindsay was a little wary. She'd had some bad experiences with ex-boyfriends who'd been dishonest so she just had one rule like any kind of bad behavior. Any kind of like. I can deal with it. Just don't lie to me. you know. After three years of dating they got married. Their relationship moved so seamlessly that lindsay didn't even think to talk to him about finances. I was aware of the statistics about like so many divorces and over money. And i just i was like well. That's not going to be us like. We are good at communicating. We can figure things out we we have this kind of good dynamic going and but it doesn't sound like y'all wherever openly talking about money. No no we weren't but a couple of years into their marriage. Lindsey was really wishing they had as she sat at that kitchen table and the rental home confused by their bank statements. Lindsay turned to her husband and told him. I don't get it. Why aren't these bills adding up. Her husband said nothing. He just looked at her. Got up from the couch and went to the basement when he finally comes back. He's got a packed. A bag of clothes and toiletries fully. Expecting lindsey to kick him out of the house for what he was about to tell her and he showed me his bank account on his phone and it was hundreds of dollars in the hole. Overdrawn and He said. I don't i don't have any money. He had stopped receiving unemployment checks but never told her when he lost his job. He said that going to school would be his full time job and they've been living partly off student loans. I asked about student loans. And i mean what he told me next was so i just i honestly traumatizing. Dropped out of school last fall so he had them in going to school. He hadn't been going to school. And i asked him where he had been going and he said sometimes he would go to campus. Sometimes you go over to friends house. Sometimes he would just like go. Sit in a coffee shop or bar. The betrayal wasn't just about money it was almost like he'd been leading a double life. Lindsey told him. I'm going to need some time that night. He slept in the basement. And i remember going into the bedroom and and Sobbing not being able to breathe and and just feeling really scared everything. In lindsay's life felt out of control for days distress consumed her her mind racing with questions. We we were in the middle of this insurance claim. And i was very pregnant with my son and i thought like how are we gonna be able to do this. Are we going to have to sell the house. Are we gonna like split up like there was a about a solid week there where i thought we would have to give my son up for adoption. I i truly thought that there was no way we could have a baby. In these circumstances lindsay says her husband was apologetic. Set up a meeting with a financial counselor to make a plan for his money but deep down she knew the damage was done. I had so much mistrust at that point with him. That like we'd be getting in the car to go somewhere and he'd be like oh after. Go back inside to grab something. And i'd follow him inside and be like what are you getting. What are you doing. Because i just. I didn't trust anything at that. Point after couples counseling in two years of trying to work through things. They got a divorce so when you divorced. How much debt did you have a lot a lot a lot. Yeah i I probably had six figures and student loans and Probably around you know five grand or so in credit card debt. How did the divorce change your perspective on marriage if at all why didn't want to get married ever and i was not interested in integrating somebody. I was dating into my life at all if she did date at all. She decided she would start to set new stricter boundaries for herself make her limits clear from the beginning. And what sorts of things were you telling yourself about dining in money Occasionally i'd go on a date. You know the guy would offer to pay. And i'd say you know it's it's fine you don't need to. I was going to go dutch with everybody. And whenever i went out with anybody i just pay for myself. She started dating. Set up an account on okay. Cupid but kept it mostly casual. And that's when she came across chris's profile. She thought christmas q. Choose intrigued that he was british and she sent him a message and they agreed to meet for a drink when lindsay got to the cocktail bar. Chris was already there right away. She felt an attraction. He was wearing a white collarless button-down shirt with a like a tweed vest over it. It was very cute. Do you happen to remember. we talked about. I think one of the things that i really like to talk about his relationships so i think i probably quickly started talking about relationship. Switch meets alike. We're talking about your ex husband or just like conceptually relationship. I gosh did. I bring out my ex husband. I take the one thing they tell you not to rain right. I don't remember if i did i can. I don't think so. She absolutely did talk about him. Outlets and that is chris lindsay's date and she was like ex-husband. Tree fell on my house like it just all came out and it was like i came away with a sense that like. Wow this person's been through some stuff recently. Coming up after the break chris in lindsay. This is uncomfortable is supported by the frugal living. Podcast tune in to the frugal. Living podcast to hear about savings tax financial tips and stories on how to live better for less serious to covers a variety of topics and offers. Advice you can easily apply to your lifestyle like the best times to buy. Tv's flowers and how to safely shop online to avoid scams you'll even meet a food waste warrior. That talks about dumpster diving sponsored by your friends at brad's deals. You'll hear from consumers just like you learn from industry experts that breakdown unique and different ways to shop smarter frugal. Living is available anywhere. You listen to podcasts. Join the conversation and learn something. New about frugal. Living heck everyone. So i wanted to share some exciting news. This is uncomfortable has been nominated for a webby award. But here's the thing. It is up to listeners to choose the winner so if you like what we do please do us a big favor and cast a vote for our show. You can find the link to vote in the show notes. I promise it'll take less than two minutes and we'd really really appreciate it thanks. Chris had moved to the us from a small town in england where he had a tight knit group of friends and the transition from that to minnesota was tough. He was lonely. I had found in counter the first couple of years of living in minnesota that it is very difficult to make friends here. He just gotten out of a marriage and every time. Chris thought he'd hit it off with. Someone will tonic lear. Romantically things tended to fizzle out so he was very pleasantly surprised to find himself in that dimly lit bar sitting across from lindsey connecting quickly and intensely. He wasn't turned off by the fact that she talked about her ex husband. In fact he appreciated how she was willing to open up about real stuff. After that night they quickly started dating. Things between them felt really natural veto on runs together. Sushi dates and we're constantly texting each other about their days. They get things pretty casual. Still seeing other people in from the start wednesay was very clear about establishing some boundaries. It was like. I'll see you once a week You won't meet my kids. i will pay for myself. You will pay for yourself and it was very like specific like when they'd go out to eat chris would suggest they just alternate. Who picked up the tab and lindsay with bristle at. This kind of thing. Didn't matter much to chris but it was clear it mattered a lot to lindsey story early on the some of that came from trauma. I was constantly trying to balance wanting to level up the relationship in some ways with really trying to be respectful of the fact that she very clearly was going to need time to come around to certain things but over time he could see lindsay was beginning to trust him. She eventually introduced him to her kids a little while after that. They went to a friend's wedding together in alaska. Things are getting serious except for when it came to money lindsay will let them pay for dinner every now and then but she kept the big things like her debt herself then about a year into the relationship on a very cold day in january of twenty eighteen. Lyndsay and chris playing hooky from work. Which like was something that i had never done before. It was just like fun and exciting to do Just like oh. I don't have very many meetings to call and say let's let's just call in skip work today. They were at lindsay house and after spending the morning in bed they made some lunch and sat down on the couch. This time around. It was chris talking about his past relationship and he was talking about. How how he and his ex Budgeted and how they just like combined all their finances and like all their money other income into one pot and they both gave themselves. I think it was like four hundred dollars every two weeks for their personal allowance. Four hundred dollars just to spend on fun stuff. And i remember being like that so much money like. I can't afford to give myself that money. But chris was like well. Wait a second. I bet if you shifted some things around get your finances organized. You could give yourself more money than you are now. He was like well. Let's put together a budget for you. Like paychecks when you paid and then what are all your bills and we have her on my laptop. And i'm like there with a big smile. Being this is awesome. This is fun. we're having fun. It's gonna be great. Chris is a huge nerd when it comes to spreadsheets. He's created this very detailed budgeting spreadsheet. He loves seriously. He spent half an hour explaining it to me in detail. And so this column is basically anytime you enter a number and cell corresponding with john. Go in and enter this figure the end of it. You have a years worth of in rosiest spreadsheet you would have on him like twelve months from now in your bank this getting so geeky now like one of the things that i like how. It's getting gigi. Yeah we've just crossed the threshold into the details. But basically the spreadsheet lets you map out all of your expected bills and expenses over the course of a year so that you can easily see how much money you'll have month-to-month in well. Chris was having the time of his life in his corner of the couch. Lindsay was having a very different experience. I felt very vulnerable. I definitely i felt like i was showing him that i didn't feel entirely comfortable showing him at that point. Yeah and like what do you what do you think you were afraid of I think i was afraid of judgment. It seemed to me that he had together with money like he knew what he was doing with money and he was very good with it and with budgeting and planning for the future and i was not even though she'd always manage her own finances when she was married it was never at this level of detail should always just kind of tried to survive financially. But it wasn't just that he was seeing the cold hard numbers. Chris started explaining to her house in his marriage used spreadsheet system to help his partner pay off student loans. He mentioned it in passing. It was nothing he talked about how. He wanted to prioritize paying those off and he out earned her by. I think like fifteen thousand dollars. Fifteen twenty thousand dollars But he was the one who suggested that they should just pool all their money and put it all into one pot and I remember thinking you paid so much of her student. Loan debt and that wasn't your debt and he was like. Yeah but you know. It's that's fine like it needs to be paid off. It was that i was like. Don't you feel resentful about that don't you. Don't you regret that. Like because i would. Chris had happily willingly merged his finances with his axe to help her pay off her debt. In a serious relationship he saw money and debt as something jointly shared but given her experiences. Lindsay couldn't fathom merging finances with someone like this much less taking on someone else's debt. I remember just like kind of going inside and like big really quiet. I was feeling like well. Am i wrong or like bad for feeling. Like i wouldn't want to help my partner pay off their student loan that lindsay didn't have the words at the time to tell him how she was feeling but the more into the spreadsheet they got the better. She actually fell. She really liked being able to see what her financial situation might look like months from now. It was empowering after the spreadsheet moment things kept getting serious. Chris eventually moved in and now they've been together for four years. We have no plans to get married like neither of us wants that but like we are planning on being together like for the rest of our lives like that is the plan. Lyndsay and chris are on the same page about a lot of big things. Like not getting married chris's to helping her raise her kids and they also dream of buying a house together but even for years into this relationship they're still sticking points around money. I spent hours talking to chris and lindsay about it and they were incredibly honest with each other about what they like and don't like about how they manage their money. Basically what you need to know is that their biggest disagreement is over. Who's in charge. Chris wants it to be a shared responsibility to have shared bank account. But lindsay's not comfortable combining finances like that and said each month a chunk of chris's paycheck automatically gets deposited into lindsey's bank account and then she buys the groceries and pays the bills. I'm very comfortable. This arrangement how do you feel about it chris. To some extent that does feel a bit. Like in seems a bit too extreme. But it's it's almost like it's a bit of a dangerous kind of parent child dynamic which is like you know potentially death for many relationships. You know actually. I disagree that it's like a parent child kind of dynamic with that like i can see being uncomfortable with being dependent on another person to pay the bills. Like i would sort of like just giving you my money and trusting that you were going to pay all the bills like that that just like makes me feel very like a little bit anxious for you. It's it's a question of trust. I know i know that doesn't mean that you don't trust that i'm good with money. It's just there's a certain level of control that you don't wanna give up around that whereas there is no anxiety around that for me but almost feels like i'm kind of conceding some level of adult responsibility to you. The i should have and for chris seating this control has led to disagreements over how they budget for example during the pandemic their grocery bill kept going over. But chris didn't know about it until lindsey told him after. The fact and i found that very frustrating because that really tapped into one of the ways in which. I don't like to manage money. Chris likes what he calls manufacturing scarcity basically giving himself an intentionally tight budget for groceries or going out to eat so he doesn't overspend can save money throughout this conversation. Chris kept suggesting they pool their money together in an account that he also has access to. So you can budget the way he likes but lindsay did not want to get behind what i don't want to have just the whole like pool all of our money together and then do like i don't wanna do the manufactured scarcity thing. I'm like fairly frugal like. I don't need those guardrails and i also don't want to have scrutiny on what i'm spending my money i'm like i don't wanna i don't wanna be on with what you buy unlike police. You're buying with your money. It's your money going to decide. And i also don't want you to be scrutinizing my purchases there. There are so many things. I want to impact in that time. There's a real main thing that i want to stress is like i want to ask you to look at it and acknowledge that a lot of the reason that it's very comfortable for you is not so much because it's effective and functional but because it's required you not to change anything. The system that we have is the system that you had before i moved to and so you have not changed the way that you manage your finances even in a minuscule way whereas i have changed almost everything about the way that i manage my finances but i want you to him me saying like i want to feel some sense of ownership around a joint management of finances for lindsay. A lot of resistance is coming from what chris mentioned earlier. She wants to maintain a sense of control after her past experiences with her ex husband. It feels to me like for you. There is just. The huddles have been pop through from past relationships. The i cannot get over In our relationship you know your marriage ended up being situation. Where essentially your money was all pulled together on the result of that was that you did get taken advantage of so i i think that what this comes down to. An we've talked about this is you are doing more prep for potential exit strategy than i am. You are being more mindful of if we break up. Do i come out equitably with the amount. The i deserve to come out with you. I mean you're you're right than it is like really about like what happens if we break up. Like if i could know with absolute certainty that were together for the rest of our lives like i i might feel differently. I might feel less anxious about pooling money. And i don't think like i think we have a real shot making it. I think if that happens you're much more likely to be the one counting the dollars and cents to make sure that you come away with exactly as much as you should come away with. It's not just that if they break up lindsay is worried. She won't get her fair share back. She worries that intertwining their finances could lead them to a break-up or at least a lot of fighting like there will be some situation in which one of us isn't happy with the way the other person is spending money and it becomes contentious like right. Now we don't we don't have that but those are negotiations that we have let those are all individual compensations that we could have where we sit down and say okay which things we socializing. Which things are we deciding are part of the join pool in which on. Let's because hearing you all talk about your finances. And whether he should pull together keep it separate and the resentment that it may cause and it makes me feel like a lot of this could be resolved though by getting married and no pre now. Okay everyone was the leave. Yeah okay no definitely not trying to get married throughout the conversation. Chris tried to convince lindsay to pull their money but at the same time he did tell her i get it. I really do understand why. You're not on board as much as i can say like this situation would work really well for as you were in a similar situation to that with someone else and it did not work out. Oh for you. And so. I i am mindful of that and that makes it more difficult to make it about me when i think about that because i just don't think this is about me. No it's not about you at all. Like i do trust you and i. I know that you are very responsible with money. And that you are not trying to swindle me in any way and Yeah it's it's that. I'm i just when i when i think about it like super logically like yes that that would be totally fine but just like it makes me feel kind of anxious. It makes her anxious because like for so many of us are values around. Money are warped influenced by our past and that can make it hard to change or to compromise in. Chris often finds himself doing this. Delicate dance of being mindful of lindsay's boundaries while also trying to honor his own needs and how they manage their money. He knows fully combining their finances isn't something lindsay once but about an hour into their conversation. He makes a pitch for at least a shared account for groceries at some point. There's got to be an integration or a sharing of like the responsibilities where we both feel like. It's a process that we can engage with and have control of even if it was just like you know to me like having a bank account alongside a credit card that small extra step adds a level of control for me or a level of ownership over the process that makes me feel as if i have some equal level of say and i'll groceries okay. We can get a big account for the groceries. That's fine. I think we should use podcast interviews to mediate financial times. You'd think after sharing some of the cracks in your relationship on a podcast for strangers to consume you leave feeling exposed or vulnerable but after our conversation after unpacking everything they emailed me to share it. Just how mushy feeling about each other that the conversation helped them understand each other more almost like a recommitment figuring this out in a few months after our talk. They told me they agreed to open a credit card together. It's a step forward and a step away from an exit strategy. All right that is all for this week's show by the way if there's anything i know from working on this podcast it's that money is a topic that can be really hard to resolve in relationships. And after talking. With chris in lindsey. I got on the phone with a financial therapists. Who offered some tips on talking about money with your partner. Which i wrote all about an our weekly newsletter you can catch that and a lot more by subscribing to our newsletter at marketplace dot org slash comforts. Also if you wanna hit us up and share your own stories around relationships in money you can always do that by emailing us at uncomfortable at marketplace dot org all right. This is uncomfortable as me. Mcrae's meghan detroit haley. Hirschman peter on rosen and camille kirwin. Our lead producer for this episode was haley. Our editor karen duffin. Our intern is marquette green. Tony wagner is our digital producer. Sound design audio engineering by george. Austad attorney eva's is the executive director of on demand and our theme. Music is by wunderle. All right i'll catch y'all next week.

lindsay chris Lindsay Chris lindsey Heo lindsay galbraith Lindsey chris lindsay Lyndsay lindsay house pugh minnesota minneapolis apple us
Krista Galbraith, CEO Manufacturing Success with Change  Episode 38

How'd It Happen Podcast

1:07:44 hr | 2 years ago

Krista Galbraith, CEO Manufacturing Success with Change Episode 38

"Welcome. Napa, so thirty eight of the how did happen podcast hosted by Mike, Testa. I'm Joe Dina Chee. Mike's podcast producer and blog collaborator. And I've got a quick favor to ask. If you like what Mike's doing with this podcast? Please consider taking less than a minute to rate, it on apple podcast or wherever you like to listen. And if you've got a little bit more time. Please leave a comment will help us keep a show relevant and interesting to you. Thank you, in this episode. Mike welcomes Krista Galbraith the CEO of k s manufacturing, a forty five year old metal stamping and contract manufacturing company founded by her. Dad Krista was unexpectedly handed the keys so to speak in two thousand eleven when her dad became ill and could no longer run the business at the time. She was a nurse working in the intensive care unit at Saint Luke's hospital had three kids under four years of age and little knowledge of the business or exposure to. Business outside of the hospital after graduating from the university of Wisconsin lacrosse with a degree in psychology. Krista packed up and moved to Colorado. Get a second degree in physical therapy, while working to support herself as a waitress bartender, and for a short time, selling shoes later, she moved back to a -sconsin to be closer to family and got her nursing degree at the Milwaukee school of engineering, Mike in Krista, cover a ton of great stuff in this episode, including her longstanding desire for and comfort with being in charge, how she approaches things that make her anxious by talent herself that she's just going to the store how she made herself approachable at ks by being interested. In listening to the employee's stories, and how she's improved by putting herself in the company of other successful people in groups like visted, and y peo- her story is multilayered, an inspirational he'd always talking about business, and he talked about his wins losses and it was always how he won. He would always. Be the same. I remember always the same thing, and it was always staying cash-rich so that you're strong anytime. There was a downturn. You're the strong one you had enough cash to get through a law to keep your people to, and he would, he would say, steal everyone else's business and people, he would steal other people's you know, work because he was still strong. Remember that would come over and over you. So proud of that he was, like, when episode is brought to you by your see midwest industry solution to complex ways problems manufacturers in all industries count on your c for fast friendly safe and guaranteed hazardous, and non-hazardous waste recycling and disposal solutions. Visit them at ear. See midwest dot com. Thank you for being a how did happen listener. Please subscribe at Mike Mel tested dot com on apple podcast, Spotify Stitcher, or wherever you like to listen. Please enjoy. Krista galbraith. Okay. That's a good way for us to start to show. How come everybody, thanks for joining me on the how it happened podcast. I have with me today, someone that I was super fortunate to meet a few years ago. Actually, she it. Is the first time that we in this tech group that I'm in which is the executive committee, a group of business owners and leaders that we had some women. Join our group, and I think I'd been in the group for ten years. All men kind of doing the same old, same old, and our chair Georgia Tula, who was on the podcast earlier was fortunate enough to engage with with some really talented women and bring them into our group in it's changed the dynamic of our group in such a positive way that I'm, I'm a little embarrassed that we went so long without that dynamic, because it's so fresh and interesting. And anyway. One of the, the, these women that have been fortunate to me is on the podcast today and her name is Christie Galbraith. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Mike. So before I get into the how it happened question with her. I do. Wanna thank you for the comment that you left on my blog, my, my coffin commentary blog that you will come to my funeral. That was. I wasn't expecting Navin is very happy to see that because at least one person decides my wife and the rest of my family will be would be at my funeral. So thank you in advance L, even say kind to. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. So anyway, Chris, thank you for coming today and for being on the show and for being part of our group and, and a now in wipe Yoshie. She's also an wipe peo- now as well. So she's stalking me now, I think everywhere I go, she's going, but I like it anyway. I started every show the same way and that's with a simple question. How did happen for you? Krista? Well how it happened for me. Well, it was looking at how today take over the business that's one story but I think how it actually happened was far far before that. Who I was what my dad decided, I was the right person to take over the company. So. How I took over the company is, is start with that one. So it was two thousand and ten and we sat down with my dad's lawyer, and, and he was going through my dad's what's gonna happen when my dad passes away. What his wishes were? And he said that my dad chose me to be the executive his will as well as the trustee of the board when he was no longer able to do. So at this point, my dad had a form of dementia that it looked imminent that it was going to happen sometime soon. So a month later. My dad was deemed incompetent. And I became on the board this new board that was formed. It was only a few months with into that when I realized that. There was a need for a higher level of leadership in the company. My dad had put a few people place, and it was definitely a need of some fresh perspective. So within six months, I was president of the company at that time, and it took a year and a half or so of a lot of hard, work, and education on my part to get up and running. I know I missing a ton of stuff in there. Let me ask let me ask things because you went you went over some stuff really fast. So in two thousand ten. Your dad's lawyer approaches you with this conversation that you just related? Prior to him approaching you and having that conversation was this on your radar at all. Not at all. Owning running. Whatever your dad's company was narrow on your radar. And then this guy says, hey, by the way, evidently, on your dad's are it was it was sort of on my radar. You know, I knew with him having this, this disease that at some point, he was gonna have to make a decision and I'd try and talk to him about it. You know what are your plans? You know, do you want me to quit go to business school? Do you only get some training teaching me? Things now before it's too late. Do you have another plan? Are you selling? And he'd just couldn't commit to anything and mostly. He just didn't wanna talk about it. I feel like it was too, maybe too painful to talk about. He didn't wanna think about it. He didn't wanna think about what would happen to his baby that he grew from scratch for the last forty some years. So. I think you just voided it. And by putting it in writing that when I no longer know it's going on, or, or I pass away, then they'll deal with it after that. So I did make attempts to to get involved beforehand. And I used to think that maybe it was he was a little bit old fashioned. He expected his one and only son to take over the company. My brother do not have any desire to do so, so I thought part of it was he couldn't imagine a woman, taking over it. He thought that who he hadn't places his executive team would be able to keep running the company. And I think part of it looking back now and learning from enough, other business owners and another enough other family businesses that it's quite possible that it wasn't just because I was a woman it was because he wanted me to truly decide for me. That's what I wanted to do, not that he would feel like it was a burden to put it on me. So that's a possibility to do. So that's interesting because in retrospect, it was put on you without really your. Without the benefit of a conversation or without the benefit of do you really want to do this? That's very true. And it's probably because I was the only one talking about it all the time and asking him what comes next. But, you know, like I said before long before that, I think I always was that, that person in my family, even when I was young and my parents were working divorced. And then both were working a lot. I was the one that would make sure that we had dinner on the table. I was on that making sure everyone had what they needed for school Vicky show. We had laundry clean. And so I was always kind of running the house and even to this day. My mom said, I always knew I count on. You take care things at home, and it wasn't the oldest. And I wasn't the second I was the third out of four kids. So I it wasn't like natural leader position. But it was just my personality. And that. Same personality carried through. I remember instances in college and, and beyond always kind of in charge of things. Always running things always volunteering. Always in charge basic. So I think he, he saw that he saw that over the years, I was the one that would say here, we're gonna get together for holiday. You know, let's do something, you know, I wouldn't let him squeak out of my life. I'd like right 'em ladders, and I make sure I called him and always inserted myself so that he wanted just kind of float away into work. So, so you did you after the divorce did you live full time with your mom then cracks. And how often did you see your dad? It started off as the, the once a week for few hours on a Sunday, the visitation, and then that just kinda dwindled off and I really would only see them for a couple of holidays year. Maybe once in the summer, how old were you when the divorce half eleven eleven okay? So you start off once a week and yeah, it's free. Yeah. So he he was fine. He wasn't a big family man. He wasn't really close to even his own siblings. And he just worked. He worked worked worked worked. And so he was kinda fine with just once in a while. Like I know he loved us, but to spending a lot of time together wasn't his top thing, he liked motorcycles, and he liked golf any like friends and work. So I always made this point of. Nope. Sorry. Not getting rid of me, and I remember come into his office once, and he was, like I don't even talk to my brother said, well, sorry, you're not getting rid of me. You just showed up. I just showed off needed to talk her. Wanted to talk, I was probably in town for something, you know, I was kinda lived somewhere else. So I was probably in town for the summer or something. And I just kept showing up even when I lived in Colorado, I know, used to send him letters and things like that. I just wanted I wanted a relationship, and I wasn't gonna give up on it, so he probably remembered those kind of things and knew that he could trust me to do the right thing with this company. So the company gets the ownership or portion of the ownership, and then the responsibility gets. Transferred to you at this meeting, our shortly after it gets conveyed to you at this me after before I get into what that felt like what were you doing at the time? Like you I was had your own. Yeah. Well, I was an ICU nurse. And I had three kids foreign under at the time. So I was mostly at home with the kids, and then I was working weekends in the ICU. But even in that, that job, one year, I was named nurse of the year. Yeah. My little pitcher was up in the lobby of Saint Luke's. I was on committees. I was. And the steering committee for our unit in right before I got pregnant with my first child, they had their encouraging me. All my peers were encouraged me to ply for the manager position there. So I was a master trainer. I you know, I was always like I said, always in charge of things, always kind of shifting to the top of whatever I got involved in. So I think it's just part of my personality, and you enjoyed that work, I dead, I really loved it. Of course, there's always parts you don't like you and, you know, looking people often, ask me in the last, however, seven years, you know, did you ever want to go back to do you ever miss it? There are parts that I miss in are parts that I don't and dusting is strong enough to go back to that. I think I can fill that the whole things that I loved about nursing, I can fill that. With other things volunteer positions. And that sort of thing. We'll, I'm so when you. When you were first talk to about taking over the company. How did you feel then I understand, now when people ask, you know, there's nothing that would? But how did you feel then about leaving or did you? And you maybe you didn't even leave your career ready. So how did you feel about it? Then, did you wanna let go of it or how did you so what I was when I first heard, of course very honored that I was chosen and then I was also panicked that how would this look to my siblings? You know, I didn't want anyone being upset with me. So but I was very honored. So I immediately said, why better now that he actually said, I trust. I believe in you pay. That's all it took from any, okay? Let me start getting involved. Lemme start learning. So I said, you know, when is your next board meeting, I wanna start coming to things. I wanna start learning about the company. So that's what I started to do. For only a month until I was put in that position. And then he still did the same thing. I still was going to meetings started coming to the company and starting to learn more. And that's when it was really like I said, about six months before actually kind of, you know, the, the board elected me as president. So my, you know, part of me feels like my dad didn't actually say, I was going to be running the company as president, but being on that board. I think that's what it may be. It was hoping or if it was necessary. Okay, so I in my hat, I imagined it was a temporary thing, an interim president until we can hire somebody else. I also kinda was in a state of mind at the time due to some personal things that put me in a position than I, I don't think I would have been in had. I not gone through that. At the pushed me into that decision. There was also this part of me that when I'd seen my dad in the last fifteen years, he was already spending his winters in Florida. And I would visit him down there, and I'd see how his team would just. Fax him information before the Email stuff. Facts information phone calls through the may on, I was like, you know, he's still kind of running things from far if you have a good team in place. And so I thought why can still do I can do this. You know, I can still be a mom. I can still do nursing on the weekends and I can make sure I can oversee this company, and make sure that it's being run properly and things are being taken care of. So I thought I could do it all. And so I wasn't scared. I was just focused on undoing it all. And is that the way it's gone pretty much except? So, so that I like the first year and a half, it was just so just really, diving in with two feet and learning as much as I could I went to every seminar. I could every free speaker, I could try to find mentors. Anybody who would talk to me and give me information on business. I would take little classes. So it was a it was a year and a half of learning and a lot of transition at the company, a lot of positions changed a lot of different people I put in charge. I learned a lot about the company. The employee's took a lot of great ideas. I learned from working at a large company at Aurora healthcare learned a lot of things about, you know, HR and policy and procedure and really looking at businesses business. No matter what business it is. You know there's still. You know, expenses, and there's people, there's overhead, and there's a profit need. There's and so you just apply it to different kind of markets. That's kinda what I what I did at the company, you know what's missing can us and I would mimic, those things there. And that's how I kinda ran and so that, that year and a half was a lot of transition. It was too much away from my family much too much away from my family. So it was hard. But then after that year and a half, I put somebody in a position of leadership that really could run that ship without me having to be there all the time. So the. I got a couple of things here you were. Educated and trained as a nurse had you during at anytime had you ever worked in the business at K NS prior to this. Well, a few times when I was, like, ten eleven twelve used to clean the floors. Okay freely. I was free labor. Yes, weeping up, you know metal shavings. So you learn a little bit something. They're just hard work, and what that looks like and later, I worked in the office when I was in college, I came home for summer, and I worked there. So I learned some, you know, more employees and how things kind of went to the office there. But that was when it was just a fraction of the company really and later when my dad expanded and built a new building, he had us coming in there and just. Sorting parts and finding things that are old machines. And you know it was just all just little labor things. I ran a machine once when he was desperate, he didn't have anybody to run it. Need a third shift person? I ran a machine forum. So it was always just labor always labor. So fair to say, you, you knew very little about metal fabrication correct, the, the contract manufacturing that you do. Right. So, right. The business it self you. You really didn't have any no exposure to on a substantive level. Now, now, he would he would remember talking to, you know what I'd force them to talk to me. He always talk about business. And, and he talked about his wins losses and it was always how he won, it would always be the same. But I remember always the same thing. And it was always staying cash-rich so that you're strong at any time, there was a downturn. You're the strong one you had enough cash to get through a LOL to keep your people to. And he would he would say, steal everyone else's business and people he would steal other people's work because he was still strong. So remember that would come up over and over you. So proud of that he was like, when and so. So that's you know, like that's his that was his business philosophy. I mean he didn't go to college. He you know, he didn't have any business training. He went with gut and and he taught himself over all those years. So just having that as a base concept, that's how we're kinda running the business. Now just staying cash rich and strong and treating the people. Right. And so no matter what happens, you can flex with the market, or economic downturn or whatever. Okay. So it's that's kind of amazing that. You come in thinking. Hearing him saying that cash-rich, right? Stay cash-rich and and. That's see. I. You're making it sound as though this is. Sort of a very natural thing. Oh, sure, you know, but and, and for you, I think what people are listening to going, what. She's, she's an ICU nurse. Who's had very little. Very little work. Experience in the business. Doesn't know anything about what the business actually does from maybe a high level, you can say, yeah, we did this. But how it actually runs. You know, you get handed the keys essentially, when your dad is is close to, to, to dying and. You make the transition seamlessly. You said the the first year and a half, but like for me, you're gonna have like ten years of working like that, before I thought. So, so I should have learned from you. Wave back then it's, it's, it's a pair clear. About how to do this. So I wanted to get into that a little because you, you talked about your dad being in Florida and getting faxes. And it's like, oh if I have a good team, you know, I can run the business. And yet you come in, and then you change the team you said, so you change the team. So you must not have thought the same way or maybe because of his knowledge he could make up for a team that maybe wasn't as good. And I don't I'm not trying to put words in anybody's mouth there on just trying to think it through. So I want to know about that. What, what made you think about that? And but, but I, I wanna know what's it like when everybody that's been working for your dad is, like, hey, who's this who's fun time? Yeah, that's real fun time. Even you know, because I spent some my first number of months, I made sure I sat down with every single impli that we was called this out of the walnuts out of the wall. So this side of the wall is, you know, engineering purchasing anything in the office sat down with all of them. You know what you do here. How does it affect things? Where does your workflow go trying to understand how work goes through the company on that side? And then on the other side of the wall, I did job shadowing. I worked with, you know, a press operator for a few hours, you know, show me what you do. What's the issues? How does this work? You know, so trying to learn what everyone does their kind of piecing it all together. So had a, you know, a fuzzy image of what this business looks like. So that was my learning there. What was the original question? So I asked about, you know what it's like to show up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I you know, I feel like I feel like because things had gotten a little dysfunctional. There are maybe a lot of dysfunctional there. I was like you can talk rush. It was. Whereas little as much more, but it was just people were like so happy to sit down and have someone to talk to they just wanted to, like, unload, I took so many notes, there was people want to be heard. They wanted to be asked what's going on here? You know. So it was more more about not just what do you do? But how are things you know, and what can what you need to make your job easier? And so they just wanted to be heard, and I heard a lot of things. So that was like a good happy thing. And then but I don't know how long it was. Maybe it was I was a urine to it. Maybe and I did it employee survey. So it was the first time this is ever happened. You know, the survey. Yeah. So. And I would get a lot of really nice comments like so we got a nurse run in his place now. And, and well, you know, and Tom used to be used to walk through the shop, and how, you know it was not the nicest comments, you know, and I realized, I'm not getting is much support as I had hoped. So I had a lot overcome. You know, I started doing trying to tie people together a little bit more trying to get to know people more doing created a newsletter to try in just educating each other about each other, and what's going on the business and just keep more communication going out. So it was it was a lot overcome. And I it was a lot of mistrust, there was the assumption, of course, that there's Casella business everything they do or sell the business. And at the time I was getting to know so many people, you know. Oh, what's the right, okay? Come on out, you know. Let's walk through the shop. And so I was constantly doing tours and every time there was anybody in. Nice clothes walk through. There was whispers and rumors and all that someone by the company and I mean, it really was probably three years before that has finally settled down. I think they have confidence that I'm doing what I'm saying, I'm doing so that was hard to come and was that some of that, at least. Did some of that the overcoming stuff was being perpetuated by some of the leaders, and that's why you felt like you needed to change some of the leaders or was it? No, I don't think it was coming from the leader. They were just, you know, good people maybe didn't work together very well. And then I think a lot of it had to do with the company had grown so much and sometimes companies, grow out of a leader's ability, you know, and you just need somebody new in there. So it wasn't coming from them. It was mostly coming from the, the, the workers on the other side, you know, they were used to my dad would come to work in work, boots flannel shirt, and some greasy ripped up jeans. And that's how he loved he, he was a tool and die maker to start. And then he grew this business went into manufact-. Picturing, so he spent his day allot out in the shop with the people. And so I was completely different from that I was dressing up. I was a female. I didn't know what to do out in the shop. So I stayed in the office a lot more. So it was a it was a lot to overcome. Did you dad smile? I think to them, I'm hearing stories from employees. My gosh, just really. He was a lot more fun with you guys than he was with me. I ask because you smile all the time. And so I thought, well, maybe they just helped really. I mean, he was, but he, he was headed temper, though, to says, I heard a lot of stories about that, too. He was a marine. I haven't seen your temper. Oh. You just wait. I'm kidding. He he was a marine. He grew up on a farm. He hit a very, very tough father. He you know, he was a tough man. He was so tough. But when he was having fun with his friends, he was he was smart he smiled. And he was he was funny, crack jokes, a great sense of humor. But he, you know, very serious side to at high expectations of people and, and when he got angry got angry. So what I should have asked the solar. But what can you explain for folks? What Kanus actually does? So we'll cannot start it as a tool and die. Shop back in seventy four and Qena stem for it was clus Gordon show, Burg my plus get is my dad's last night made name. Okay. And they had started the business together. And I think it was only like a year later, it was evident. My dad does not work well with partners. So I don't know exactly what happened. I could easily say his probably my dad's. He just didn't work well with having a boss or partner. So he was he was meant to be at the top of appear. Mid lose partner. Then starts sober to see did. Yeah. Yeah. Recognize the name. Yeah. And I I'm pretty sure Emmett Emmett was name. And I remember seeing that he passed away, not too long after my dad. So it was really interesting. And so, so it started as that, and then it just kept growing putting additions onto building. And then at some point he bought his own press to test his dies on. And then he's thinking why do I have this expensive press? Why not I make parts on it? And then before you know it, he built a stamping plant. Across the, the. Road. And so then, from there it was like, well, I can make money if I doubt. And before you knew it, he had, you know, we had lasers and we have a production, machining department, we have welding, now, we have robotic welding. So it's a vertically integrated shop and we make parts for other people. So usually things with an engine because those things have a highly engineered part. So that's our customer are Joe EM's. And when you came into the business. What did it look like versus what it looks like love what it looks like now today? So that's nine years, ten or eight years. I guess really somewhere around there. Two thousand eleven official. Okay. So coming up. Sometimes it's eighth year or some here. Yeah. Anyway. Well, when I first came in, we had a lot of debt, we're on a line of credit. We had parts that were late. We had customer lots different customers. And now we are not in debt, and we're doing well or in control. It used to be a lot more hair on fire. Kind of when we got, busy, it was all hands on deck, and everyone was stressed out, and now things are planned and controlled, there's always issues, of course, but it's just calmer and, and study and things are more predictable. We put a lot of procedures in place, a very first hire, which was like three weeks after I started. I hired an IT person we didn't have an IT person. And that person was able to put a lot of. Different programs in place to really get us up to speed on getting things through the shop properly and on time and organiz. It's taken years years, and it still continues improvement, so that is the, the biggest thing is just always do a little bit better. Just a little bit better a little bit better. So no big, huge lefty goals and big yearly goals. It's, it's just constantly. Let's just do a little bit better, and it's been working for us, and how did you as you built your management team 'cause I know I struggle with this, and I think most most. Entrepreneurs are business leader struggle with. How do you know that the person is the right person, and particularly coming in the way you did where you didn't have? Tana knowledge about how the business really works. But you, you saw that there was a need to. Get a little bit better in some of your leadership positions. But how did you actually? Evaluate. People. How did you know the team I really feel like I was just completely blast I, I really do not to get too spiritual but I really feel like some of this was like the hand of God coming in 'cause how everything happened when it happened in that first couple years, I know that very early on when talking to all these different people, there was just one sole, there, that seemed to understand everything, and have this knowledge that no one else seem to understand. And, and so, I started in Hewas are head of sales, and so I started bringing him to these board meetings, and it was not taken very well by the rest of the team, but I'm sorry, who had put the board together. Didn't seem to me like your dad was aboard type person what you're saying. There wasn't aboard so because I'm calling him board meetings, but they're having these monthly maybe their management or executive means I'm not sure what they called him. But at the time it was the headed to die. Right. And then. Then, so those meetings were happening monthly and so I started bringing this person to the meetings because he really knew what he was talking about. And I could just tell the now it just felt right? And I that's one thing I feel like I have is a good read on people. I think all my years and nursing, and I have a degree in psychology too. So that helps I just knew he knew what it was talking about. And, and so that person was always a great bug in my ear, and helping me with a little bit of direction, and I could bounce things off of him. And in over the next year and a half proved to be the right person for I put him in that COO role year about a year and a half later. And he's really the one that has been transforming. A lot in the company he's got. He's just really blast that he was already there. And he feels the same way that he was brought to our company. Cut a push there in a way. And so a lot of the team has been grown done since then, and, and some of them he's known in his past life. He knew these people. And he, you know, kind of convinced them to come, you know, this, it's a great ownership with an open, mind and a proactive stance on things, and you're not going to be put down and overworked and you know, you're going to have that ability to do your job, right? Without a lot of your accuracy, or, you know, and, and so it's a nice place to work and, and use your intelligence and use your talent. And so that team has grown that way. And then, you know other key positions. I mean, we do some psychological testing on people, you know, we do check out to see. If they're gonna they have the right skills, if they do that yourself now we use shut down with me for a few hours. Yeah. You got gotta cow. Yeah. Never go ahead. Bottle of wine. Yeah, we'll get to know each other real good. So. You know, a lot of it is feel you know, we've, but we've made some bad hires to, you know, things didn't work out and some of it, we didn't trust our gut. And we went back and went, oh we put some of that position because we were just getting in. Amc ansi. We just wanted to get somebody listen because it was it was open. Oh, just. Okay. I think I think this personnel, and it just wasn't the right fit. And then it's the pain later. But just like everything reflect back. You know what I'm gonna do differently next time and keep looking forward? How are you different now than you were? When you first took over. That's a tough one. I mean Melot smarter in many ways, but I think I've almost become more careful. I think I was a little bit more run again, when I started because they got nothing to lose, you know. And, and now there's just, you know, so me put a lot of time and energy and heart into things. And so now I'm a little bit more reserved. And hopefully I haven't gone too far one direction. But now, I'm you know, I'm nervous about the next few steps, you know, because now we're in a really happy place. So what comes next, you know, and it's another big scary. Place that I don't know if I have I'm not going to be in the same emotional state to be able to do it again. But I never stopped me before. I shouldn't really stress out about it. What? You talked a little bit about growing up. You know, you're sort of nurturing won the organized one, the in control and charge on you feel really comfortable on those roles. Your people person. Obviously, you know, chase after your dad Jay, I've seen, you know, you're just what you described about going and sitting down with everybody talking to them listening to them. You know, they wanted to be heard no one was asking them. Their opinions. Where did you set off to, to, you know, when you were in high school or whatever, what, what were you like what were you thinking about what we? Aspiring toward, and in high school, I had huge parties in high school. Yeah, yeah. 'cause, you know, real social like to plan things like to organize things fits. Oh, okay. Yeah. And, and I had the atypical parties, where actually would grill up some food, and I made. Sure. But what had a dry towel for the pool? Made sure every everyone was having a good tied. You know, everyone was safe and, and then, you know, I would get that house cleaner than it was when I started. So, you know, high school, I didn't I didn't have out there wasn't a lot of guidance. There wasn't any push from my parents to, you know, go to college. Or let's start looking at your future was, you know, they were kind of just busy, you know, doing their own thing. So my goal is to just get done and get outta town and get away from it all. So after high school. Yeah. Yeah. So I applied for two colleges. I got into both and I went to the one that was farther away, so, which was Colorado. Now this lacrosse across as the first one. Okay. Yeah. And then and then after that I went let me get even further away just to do something completely on my own. And that's when I moved to Colorado just packed up my car and. Drove across the country and moved in myself and lived out there for almost four years. Did you have something waiting for you there or just there and figure it out? I did I did decide to go do some more schooling. So I went to there. We went to nursing school now I gotta dig. I agree. And physical therapy. Like physical therapy nursing. Yeah. All before business school. She's which you created yourself. You didn't have to go anywhere for that. Yeah. Yeah. Physical therapy. Win was that something you've been that, you know, that was what I was going to school for? And but I didn't what was happening at the time as you had to have like recommendations, you had to have volunteer work, you have like an internship, you had and my dad didn't believe in college. So he was not willing to help me out. So I had to work almost fulltime through college. So there's no way I was going to do an internship, and a, you know, all this extra stuff. So by the time I just felt two behind even apply for the program. So I just was like let me just finish this degree and something. And so that's how I think most people with a psychology degree end up with a second degree. Jamie psychology. Don't listen to this, Jamie. I don't think she's worked with at much. Yeah. I have an English degree. I haven't worked with it much talking. I don't do. Very. Oh, you're so good. So I don't I don't think there's a lot of people I think they get a degree in something. They don't plan. You know, I didn't have a whole lot of direction. I think that's very typical. And but you know, I do use it a lot. I use it all the time I use it, you know, with friends and work. And so it's still benefit, you know, and I was meant to be there. I really feel looking back if you could pick any any mistake anything that you would classifies a mistake or a wrong direction or wrong path. I truly believe that every single one of them is what led me to where I'm at and led me to be the person, I am to take over and lead me to have the courage, you know, to do what I did. And in some of the skills, you know, some of the failures, you know, a job it'd horrible horrible at sales. But reselling shoes horrible. Do be horrible at selling I, 'cause I'm not pushy and have it you put yourself in the other person's plays the very naturally like with the towels and at the high school party, make sure you have a tau, but that's. Yeah. But by taking care of someone taking care of sometimes. People's feet are very important to them, how they look in, I would have thought it was like a high end Italian shoe store, and I was it was my third job while I was still going to school. And so those shoes, OJ was wearing maybe. Those anyway, I. So it was so I couldn't get in. I couldn't get in their shoes. You know what I mean? I'm to see how she did that. Yeah. Couldn't get into that because I didn't have that kind of money couldn't even imagine spending that much on a pair of shoes. So I wore black it, but, you know, I was great at waitressing. I was great bartending do all those all those things I got really good at talking to people then just kind of being vulnerable. I suppose you know, people that were nice you, you know, people keep keeping people alive, helping them pass away helping the family having difficult conversations with people having difficult conversations with doctors, lots of things that helped me grow to be, you know, who I am, you know, and even, you know, mistakes, like degrees at end up using, you know. But if I had it been there at that time I wouldn't be who I am now. So what brought you back to did you did you go comeback from from Colorado to Wisconsin? I did it. It was at, you know. Once again, if I would've given physical therapy, more of a chance, there was Schuessel's or shoe says, I gotta cut rock that. So it was nothing was working out, you know. And I was, I was of the belief that when you feel like God is closing every single door in front of you. You're just not on the right path, and you know, working in physical therapy, the time I was like going between four different like facilities nursing homes, doing care, and I was like, not making any money. There was no jobs at the time, they had changed something with the law, and there was, like this plethora of therapists out there. So the good jobs were taken by senior people, and I was still new. So it just it just wasn't working out and I couldn't get coulda given it more times. That's one of those things you can look back and like, oh, what a mistake I should've given it more time. But, but not a mistake because what I found is that every time I'd go into a room to grab a patient and the nurse was like. Injecting them with things. I liked it. I might want to inject people on cut people open. I like that. So I was finding I like doing I, I wanted to do that. And not so much being that cheerleader of trying to get people who did not want to do. It's the sales, didn't they did not want to do the work. It was painful, it was and trying to get them motivated to do that. I, I realized maybe I should be a nurse. And so all of a sudden before I knew it, I was looking at MSI back at in walkie. They had a great brand new nursing program, and everything was closing. You know, I just got dumped by boyfriend. My job wasn't so great. You know, there's just things weren't lining up out in Colorado anymore. And I kind of felt you know, I should probably be backed by family. If I ended up you know, falling in love with someone having babies, I should be near my family. So that's what made me come back in what? Okay. So what was it that made you want to be nurse? You've got got sick psychology degree. I get it. You know, just wanted to go to school weren't where you have to pick something kind of how I picked English got pick something then physical therapy and getting away go. And then you come back. You just talked about being close to family when you have a family. I get that where the nursing I wasn't ours. Light seem blood and adding things. Yeah. Well, it just, you know, I feel like when we were growing up, it was like I said it wasn't a lot of direction has to what kind of positions are for you. You know, it was I in my mind while I could be a teacher or nurse or a secretary of still very like I felt pigeonholed into certain jobs that I knew of, you know, nobody talked to me about what a marketing degree would be, you know, or working in advertising or or business. What does that even get you didn't even understand it? All nobody really talked to me about that. So seeing, I think the reason I originally went into physical therapy, it was because I was geared towards nursing my mom said, don't do it. So or I didn't wanna be like her. I wanna do my own thing. You know, something said, why do something close? And so that's why I went on that physical therapy path. It's my went back on the path that, that seems closest to my heart. But the thing is, is I still remember all the times I'd work in restaurants and bars and I'd be working a day shift and Mike who are all these people that have time to come in here and have lunch in the middle of the day. You know, because in my mind any job, you'd barely have time for a break, I wanna job where you could just leave work for an hour and a half in your business suit and have lunch with somebody and, and at that time, that's when they'd have a little little drink at lunch. You know, like where are these people, and what are the all doing? And there's just hundreds of them, you know, what are these jobs out there, and I used to kind of be envious of that. I want that freedom. And so, I think it was always kind of, in my heart. I just didn't know what it looks like. And so now I can have a business lunch with another business person. And I'm the one that the restaurant and you know so it's kinda feels full. Circle kind of feels like this is where I'm was always supposed to go so you can also do a podcast in the middle of the day to I understand. Yeah. And with nursing you don't get that when you're on as a nurse. You're, you're on your on and in your, your hours are long days long, and you don't know if you're gonna have time to eat or go the bathroom, and sometimes you're forced to stay late for mandatory overtime, and you're working evenings and holidays and weekends. And I mean I don't wanna turn away anyone from the profession. But having this kind of freedom, and, and hanging out with other smart, people, and talking business. I absolutely love it. And you you. You talked about. Awhile ago. How? You basically would just try to learn from anybody when you first got into the role and I feel like you're, you're probably still doing that. What, what are, you know, and you mentioned the sort of, like, oh, gosh, we get get it to, you know, how do we keep getting better every day? Right. Getting better every day. And that's not just the business. But that's you as well. So what have you done? And what are you doing to keep getting better every day? Well, I continued to work with my, why peo- group my visted group, you know, learning from other leaders, just having lunch with people and comparing notes. I'll go to any seminars are speakers or anything like that. Get what I cannot of that. I do have this in the back of my head. I kinda wanna get another degree our new to kind of figure coming wanna get my MBA. 'cause I think at the when I was still in the nursing path, I wanted to the kids were old enough. I wanted to actually get my doctorate. There's like an MBA doctorate program, which can do both the same time just to just to have that, you know, behind my name, you know. So it was always on my mind to go back to school. So I think that's maybe the next step, you know, in my learning as well. So. And so I've had a bunch of people on here. Some of whom have gone to business school or have their masters in something, and some like me, who have barely had got an undergrad, and that's kind of where, where it stopped, and I'm always interested in the why, why is it important to you too? And what do you imagine that it would do for you, for example, if you have a masters but because, as I listened to earlier kind of getting your masters and your own school, all k nast. Why, why is it important other than having the? Title but the ladders. NBA. And, and honestly, that's what's my, my struggle with is still trying to figure out my why. I think sometimes, you know, when I looked at my I just recently had a linked in trying to find somebody to fill position. And so there's a lot of people looking at my Lincoln profile, and it would kind of make me cringe because it probably would that's your, that's your background, what you know, now it could be like, hey, go, listen to the how'd it happen podcast. That's how yeah yeah. So it it's part of it is, is a is a confidence thing. Or is a you know, like I feel like I fit in with all the other business people, but I also know having talked to so many of them, that's not in my dad to, you know, they don't have a business degree doesn't mean that you're going to be good at business, and you can get your degree, and still be horrible at it or not have the right personality. So I'm trying to figure out my wi- to make sure it's not that and that it's more about what I wanna learn. And so I've talked to other people other business leaders, you know, you have it. You don't why you know what do you think and it, and it kinda seems like I could just pick and choose certain classes that I wanna get stronger at, you know, I took an economics class, and I don't need any more speech in any kind of psych- things, you know. But you know, I could be stronger at financials and understanding that. So there's I might just pick and choose certain things and take that. But then it would also be nice to have the letters to. So what? You know what's important to me? Yeah, I just I just always interesting thing for me to. By the way, on the like to inject and cut into things. I, I don't like to do either those things. I'm embarrassed to tell you what I'm going to tell you that. I passed out when I was getting my blood drawn for my blood tests. We're going to get married. That was the first time I think I'd ever have my pledge on. I was like, oh, sure. Just do it. I'm like fall over on. Super passing. Okay. I think they feel like this is an important question. Are you ready for this? Okay. So now that since you've been running K NS, and you've took you've taken us through a lot of that. And you've been in the company, put yourself in the company of, of a lot of other business. Leaders owners, whatever. Most of whom I've likely been doing what they're doing longer. Then you have running company. Do you feel like there's a difference between them and you well, there's definitely something to be said for wisdom, you know having been through things and seen it before. And I can at least say, I have a little bit more wisdom, obviously than I did seven years ago, I zero but there is something be said for people that have worked in other companies to, and they've been around, they've own different companies, or they worked in different companies to see how other people do it because there's always that kind of question like em. Am I keeping up with everyone else? Am I am I head of other people, and I know there's always that benchmarking thing, but I don't always trust benchmarking 'cause you don't know who's reporting anything benchmark benchmarking, because then it. Not only do you, not know that stuff. But you also. Can fool yourself into thinking, well, I'm better than with the benchmark, you know, and then you stop. Right. And that's say you don't know if the benchmark is really accurate, you know, could be much lower than you can actually attain. So so, you know, I'd feel more confident knowing when we're winning or losing, you know, little things if I had that wisdom behind me. But that's how I rely on my team because they are so full of wisdom. I just really have an amazing team. So. Yeah. I you know, the future will will show me more as I'm in the business longer. So while I'm gonna paraphrase what you just said, they are. So while you may or may not have at least in your mind the equivalent amount of wisdom as someone who's perhaps been doing it longer. You don't feel out of place. You don't feel like you don't belong with those people, right? No, it's I think that there's a certain number of people that, you know, there might be people a lot more wisdom in in, in business. But I feel like I've a lot more wisdom in other areas. And so, I can't compare it, you know, I can't feel less than or in hopefully they don't feel greater than me because we have different knowledge bases. And you know, I know that, that I'm better at other things. So. I guess I don't try and let it rock, my confidence too much. Sometimes it does, you know. Oh, it's interesting. You, you went that way because I was kind of asking it or thinking about it in a way that actually reinforces your confidence because you like a great example, here for people who in your circumstances, a little different, but for people who are like, I really want to run a company. I really wanna start a company. I really wanna do this. I really want to do that. But, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm I'm stuck in this job that I'm doing and it's a good job and it pays. Well, and I don't know that I could actually even if I could figure out a way to get it going. I don't know if I could do it, and you're like a great example of someone who. At least what I take away from it as you get put into a situation you decide. That you're going to do it. And then you figure out everything that needs to be figured out, so it's, it's kind of an I know nothing's easy, and you've, you've sort of, you know, done your best gloss over, what's probably a lot of crap happened in there. But you've done it. Yeah, I think most people aren't given such a beautiful opportunity. Like I was you know, I mean this huge Antic gift from my dad that I also feel like that just made up for all the, the, the stuff that he wasn't. You know, wasn't there for like it's like this big final gift and most people aren't giving that. So they don't have that choice of do I just take this on and then figure it out later, but I was given that, that gift but I know at the very beginning for, for anybody who would be on that. Like can I do this can I do this? Where do I even start? You know, one of the first night, took over one of the first seminar, things I went to going to anything like, oh, there's a free thing here. It was something like governor Walker was talking at, and it was sponsored by score. Never even heard I didn't know. That was. And then it was like afterwards, you can sit down with a score mentor mentor. Sure, I'm in. I didn't even know it was at the time. So small business administration program CBS senior core of retired execs stands for so they provide you free advice on, so they set me up with he was a retired business owner, and they set me up with him. And he was in manufacturing. And he would meet with me all the time. And he would be like, okay, this is what you're going to do next. You know, look at your this plan, look at, you know, an in, he would help me kind of nowhere to go next, and what to look at. And so, you know, and they, they have little classes, there, little financial classes, they can help you set up with the business plan. So people that are like, maybe I could maybe I should, you know, that would be a good place to start is, is working with this free service. I went to score as well. Yeah. When I was they helped me too. Struck the business plan on getting started because I didn't know how to do that. And there was no internet. You didn't learn that in your English major. I didn't know we didn't we did not have a there wasn't a book that we read on that probably it was written by Shakespeare. We probably would have read it, but I don't I don't think he wrote stuff like now, I don't think so. What's the one thing that you most want to do? Lake ever. Like whatever. Yeah. Like if I had any choice doing anything right now? I don't know just answer the question like in business or if I didn't have the business. Sure. Okay. If I didn't have the business, I have, I have really strong farm envy. I really I, I could see myself just home studying to be honest, you just like raising food and animals and kind of cooking and baking and the just completely like going off the grid. You know, but then I know I would be completely empty, you know, and I really it sounds good until I think about not talking to in meeting all that the great people, I've met and, and using my brain on a higher level and challenging myself and putting myself into uncomfortable situations because I always feel so much better afterwards like today, something a little out of my comfort zone and not doing those challenges to myself. I know I would feel lost after a little bit. So here's an idea may not be a good one. But you, you can homestead and do all the things that you're talking about and have. A podcast and people come out your. They will have farm MB at your place while you continue to learn and pick people's brains into all things. Yeah. Smart. Yeah. He can do the best of all worlds. Yeah, yeah. That's a free tip. Thanks. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for, for coming on the show and sharing your story with us. It's phenomenal story and for everyone that's listening. You can sense the humility that. That, that Christa has. But you can probably also sense, the doggedness to, you know, she's, she's she's a fighter and in a good way not a not a not a terrier throat out fighter, but good. She she she she's curious. She is determined. She goes after stuff, and, and she wins, so good lesson. The first day, thanks so much for being on the show things like I'm honored to be here. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode of the how that happened podcast where we believe that success doesn't happen unless you make it happen. You can subscribe to the podcast on apple podcast, Google podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you like to listen, and while you're there, please rate it and leave a comment as well. I'd love to hear your thoughts about the show ideas for future guests or whatever you'd like to share. And of course, you can always find me at Mike, mala test dot com. See next time thanks again, for listening to the how that happened podcast.

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Banishing the Ghosts of the Great Recession

Deconstructed with Mehdi Hasan

38:45 min | 5 d ago

Banishing the Ghosts of the Great Recession

"On thursday the consumer price index for the last month was released and the headlines from grim prices jumped five percent in may from your earlier stoking debate in washington. That's from the new york times. The subheads spelled out the doom even more clearly the cpi showed the strongest year-over-year reading since two thousand and eight and a core index pop the most since nineteen ninety two much lower in the story. We learned that one reason the year-over-year increase was so high is that it was a comparison of course to last may and last may can with the depth of the early days of the pandemic when prices had fallen to record lows. We also learned that. Economists have expected price bump as the economy reopened and people travel and spend money. They've saved the past year. All of this is happening while rickety supply chains are still themselves recovering from the panic. And because we've allowed so many of our industries to become so concentrated supply chain problems felt more acutely than they used to be the thing that might actually be more dangerous than inflation however could be the reports of inflation and the response from washington those reports produce the knee jerk move dc whenever we hear the word inflation to hurry up and throw people out of work by raising. Interest rates is deconstructed. I'm ryan grim and later in the show. We'll be joined by economics. Professor jamie galbraith. To explain how wildly wrong at is. But i a few words about the loudest economist who is being so loudly wrong. I'm speaking of course none other than larry summers. The washington post recently reported that president biden had a private phone. Call with this exceedingly influential. Economists gave him a chance to air. His criticisms of the administration's economic policies. So this mean biden is actually listening to larry. Summers or two economists like him. If biden really wants to know what happens when you let larry summers guide your economic policy-making he could just call his old boss. Barack obama summers for those of you don't remember was obama's top economist at the height of the financial crisis before that he was a treasury secretary for bill clinton whom he helped push through the very wall street deregulation that ended up fueling the two thousand and eight crash. The idea that larry summers thinks anybody should be listening to him at this point doesn't speak well of his judgment. The good news is that no. It doesn't seem like either biden or his economic team are actually listening to summers more on that in a moment but first let's talk about larry summers economic policy beef with the biden white house. Basically it boils down to inflation. Summers thinks that biden is doing too much to juice the economy and that all this government spending is going to drive up inflation. He's called inflation quote the primary risk that we face now. It's true that real inflation that gets too high can be a big problem for regular people that is if wages. Don't keep up with it or you're on a fixed income but when people like summers talk about inflation and an overheating economy. It's not just rising grocery prices. They're talking about what this is all really about as a power struggle in the workplace in the nineteen seventies. According to mainstream economists workers had gotten too powerful their unions were driving up wages. Not just for them but it nonunionized companies to the solution was to destroy the unions and fire the workers. And so jimmy carter brought in paul volcker to chair the fed and do just that he jacked up interest rates to sky bringing about a vicious recession by the early eighties. Inflation was coming down since so many people had been fired. They had less money to spend and as a consequence there were way more job seekers than there were jobs. Wages went down and it became much harder to form a union. Those unions that survived had to accept lower wages. Nineteen eighty-one ronald reagan. Fired the air traffic controllers. When they went on strike was a signal to big business that they can do whatever they wanted to unions and the government wouldn't stop them. It might even help them. Wealth and power flowed upward inequality skyrocketed and wages were kept low to guarantee that things would stay that way anytime. Real wages showed even hint that they were thinking of going up the fed jack up interest rates and slow down the economy. It got so bad. That the market started getting spooked. If there was even a rumor of a good jobs report if it looked like workers were doing a tiny bit better investors thought. Well now the fed's gonna raise interest rates so we better sell everything. Now start to slow down hiring. That's why the words of the fed chairman or the president actually matter if they're talking about flation in most cases when politicians talk. It's just talk. But if they're talking about wages and inflation what they say filters immediately into the real world and into people's paychecks the fight over wages and inflation is at the very heart of the class war. And what's interesting. Is that even to those who say race. Gender equity dynamics should be prioritized ahead of a class analysis. Wage pressure is still the most important game in town. Think about it this way. If there are ten unemployed workers for every job opening bosses can pay the bare minimum and treat workers like garbage in a country shot through with racism and sexism that means racism and sexism will flourish in the workplace. But there's only one worker for every job opening companies have to treat that worker a lot better if a boss messes with the schedule. Harasses you or treats you as less than because of who you are or who you love you can just quit and go find another job. That's power. You can't do that if it's harder to find another job and your boss knows that. So he's less likely to treat you that way. The name of that situation is full. Employment and full employment is the biggest fear of the ruling class when caught caught us on. Cnbc fox business warns about inflation. What they're really worried about is workers getting too much power now back to biden and summers. Let's pretend for a moment that summer's grievances sincere and grounded and real economic data instead of just as bitterness that he's no longer insider the fact that biden made that call summers at all is worrying the official line on the call however is more encouraging the post quarter to white house official who said that biden is seeking quote a wide spectrum of views. And that the summers call was quote brief an informal. The same official said that the call took place before the president's speech on the economy in cleveland they explained that biden quote has spoken to a number of voices outside of the administration including many with whom he has disagreements and added that he has also been speaking with bernie sanders as someone who's covered white houses over the years. Let me parse that for you. When a mainstream news outlet refers to a quote white house official like that and the quote is a bit robotic. It means it came from a spokesperson which means it was approved up. High and represents the white house's public position and larry summers knows that but the most important detail there was that biden's brief call with summers happened right before biden went on stage to give a major address on the economy. Let's take a listen to the speech. He gave right. After talking. The summers i am a capitalist. But here's the deal from nineteen forty eight after the war to nineteen seventy nine. Productivity in america grew by one hundred percent we made more things with productivity. No worker pay one hundred percent since nineteen seventy-nine all that changed. Productivity productivity has grown four times faster in pay has grown the basic bargain. This country's broken. Okay that's a fairly standard progressive understanding of the twentieth century. So far so good. Here's where he takes next along the way we started seeing the stock market and corporate profits executive pay as the sole measure of our economic success. Let me tell you something. My soul measure of economic success working families are doing whether they have jobs that delivered dignity all right. Great working families jobs at delivered dignity all find stuff but we're still in the realm of standard democratic campaign talking points but he goes on that means we have to focus on wages like we used to. Okay now we're talking. That means we have to focus on wages like we used to. We have to focus on wages like we used to and it gets even stronger when it comes economy. We're building rising. Wages aren't a bug there. A feature to repeat rising wages aren't a bug. they're a feature. That is exactly right too. Many conventional economists think of rising wages as something bad something that the government needs to fix rising wages are a feature not a bug there. What we want this right here is the speech. He gave just moments after that call with larry summers back to biden one more time. Why does he argue that. Rising wages or a feature. Not a bug we wanna get. We're going to get something. Economists call full employment is set of workers. Competing with each other for jobs are scarce. We want employees to compete with each other to attract work. We went to companies to compete to attract workers. I kind of competition in the market doesn't just give workers more ability to earn a higher ways. Gives them the power in a man and be treated with dignity and respect in the workplace and helps ensure that america. When you walk into work you don't have to check your right to be treated with respect that the door full employment also means more options and opportunities for work including black hispanic workers. American asian american workers women who've been left behind in previous economic recovery. Again that's exactly right. And that's also the perfect intersection of the class. War increasingly toxic debates about woke miss. This might sound too obvious but the way to actually help. Marginalized communities is to make them less marginalized to get them off the margins. The way to do that is to give them power that they can then use however they see fit in pursuit of their own dignity and their own vision of a good life. full employment gives them that power. You think that factory owner during world war two hired rosie the riveter because he got woke on gender equity racist factory owners during the war. Didn't start hiring black workers because they suddenly saw the light on civil rights. It was because they had no choice. Black workers have historically been the last to be hired and the first to be fired. Which means that the closer the economy is employment. The better they are doing the more power they have now. Economic power alone is no guarantee of civil rights or human rights but it creates a political base of power. You can use to fight for those rights. The greatest advance of civil rights in the sixties came after two decades of rising wages. That's not a coincidence. The white backlash made its most serious inroads in the eighties and nineties when wages were flat and declining for communities that were becoming effort more marginalized. That's not a coincidence. Either with prices rising. We're going to be seeing an awful lot of people arguing that we need to raise interest rates. Detainment is that they want to do it. So that workers lose power and no longer commanded or dignity on the job. The stop that from happening. It's important to understand what's really going on for that. I'm happy to welcome back jamie galbraith. An economist at the university of texas professor galbraith welcomed deconstructed. You're very much good to be with you. Sure thing and i first of all. There's been some news in the galbraith family. You're you're no longer. Perhaps the most celebrated galbraith in texas to tell us a little bit about what's going on with 'em my daughter emma's the star of the found between girl which is making the rounds of festivals it was given the audience award at south by southwest said jury award at the c. a. m. they asian american festival san francisco couple of weeks ago. And it's been very very well reviewed the to say that the family has a new start. Well congratulations papa. On the subject of today's deconstructed there's a conventional understanding of why the us saw inflation in the nineteen seventies and eighties. And you've consistently argued against that to a degree what what what. What do you think really happened yet. How do you explain inflation during that period. Oh well prices started rising in the late. Nineteen sixty s and that's generally associated when the price strong economy a war but in the seventies the international system was that it existed. Kind of broke. Apart was a stabilizing exchange rate regime. Called the brentwood. System was basically dismantled. Nineteen seventy one and that was followed by the fall in the value of the dollar and then the big rise in oil prices which apple nineteen seventy three and again in nineteen seventy nine those things basically the commodity price increases fed through into the wage system in the united states which had a very strong component of cost of living adjustments in union settlements and that generated a decade were but prices arising missile be rapidly through the through the whole system that whole structure. The economy's very very different than what it is today so the story of what happened is not really one that were a great deal about the present situation and yet it seems like people are trying to kind of learn from that system in a today there are there are people who say well we were just going back to the nineteen seventy s. Well i think that's very very likely structure of the. Us economy is much more internationalized. The pass through mechanisms that existed in the seventies basically box at this point as a while we will ask our data. You can see that. Some christmas prices that are occurring as we transition out of the pandemic of others shifted some structures the economy. The medicines are different and much less likely to specialist likely to build lasting phanom so in march. You wrote an essay arguing that inflation fears were overblown for one reason and that was china. And can you walk us through why that is and how our relationship china and with global global commerce has changed the structure such that we think about inflation differently. Now well there are actually things of that. But sinus situation is is a very much in the forefront right now but from the middle nineteen eighties onward out with the collapse of the soviet union. We entered a period when commodity prices were very stable And they were they remain that way. Those prices are set on global markets about very strongly influenced by what happens inside the united states. China came along a little later providing a very large share of the manufactured consumer votes at very stable prices with those two things. He passed it by the price level affecting most american consumers more or less internationalised phenomenon. Not to say can't be disrupted by a by what's going on basically right now which is the the transition out of out of the pandemic but those that situation is not a feature of life that we live with now. I i did write that. If not the one one risk. You could run if you you disrupt this. International matters treibil. Yes you're going to get price consequences of that. The united states and that was the point of a few weeks ago and so one virtue for kind of wall street and the c o class of believing in the idea that labor power in the in the seventies was. The was the real problem that was that was the thing that that kind of slowly drove inflation and that and that crushing labor unions was a regrettable but necessary response to that if they can convince themselves that they're in a similar situation and wages are rising too quickly now than that would seem to justify a crackdown There aren't as many unions to crack down on but there are workers that could be punished are are you seeing some of that developed. We're certainly seeing that story being told triple work because they have savings piled up because there are on unemployment. insurance businesses can't find workers at the register. they're willing to pay. But the reality is of course. Businesses have been paying miserable wages to worker american workers for years and they've been out the worst of currently quite happy with being able to get away with that and it's a very good thing right now that if they have to To to raise wages to bring people back into the labor forcing great. Let them waste raise. Fleet this is not a problem that could describe does a ongoing problem of at flation related to the house value will see the currency and the stability the economy. It's a simple market adjusted. The needs to be made in order to that that should be. It's the benefit of the population. Have to ask yourself if you're gonna go with that argument. Would you be in favor of the fed intervening and raising interest rates. If congress raise the minimum wage. That would be absurd conclusion. Do this these things happened. Laid off a change in the relationship in the society editor. If you're conservative. Economists you say on the market get used to it and so in the seventies and eighties. You argued for a different response to inflation at the time. What or what policies did you argue for them in are any of those applicable today if we do see inflation while i was the verse substantial tradition going back well before that to the thirties and forties that the way you manage these pressures was having negotiated arrangement of social contract between labor business and government essentially and that was that was the policy of the of the nineteen sixties. Kennedy's false johnson's policy strategy of using of employment to bash labor into shipments basically started nineteen seventy s and then really applied with ferocity in the nineteen eighties that was very destructive pulse at not only late damaged. A whole generation of working americans the casualty on the side of the entire american industrial base in the upper midwest which was woods deeply damaged by the high interest rate policy of the Our policies of the of the early tonight and destroy export markets gave it on the spike up to the competition. Which at the time was determined japanese. That opened the door for normal amount about sourcing. Tell this is headed. It's not a set of mistakes. We should making again. So you've advised congressional democrats in the past and hypothetically let's say they they come to you again and they say professor golbright. I'm getting killed back in my district over lumber prices and i'm being told that milk is expensive. You've seen some republicans point to like a four cent increase in in burrito prices at japodlay to say that The world is ending. They say maybe the world isn't any but this is a political problem for me at least What what are some policy responses that that democrats could implement to target inflation with out driving people into unemployment. Okay so there. I first of all what to look at what has happened. Just looking at the inflation numbers that were released this morning and recognized that the underlying them or basically two elements of an increase of about fifty percent in gasoline prices basic energy prices over year over year. That's not going to happen again. So one can say okay. We clearly see. That's a transept hoist. And then there's an increase in in other commodity prices than things used cars trucks. I can't do much about the used. Car market but with respect to commodity crisis medals and things of that nature. Lumper's you mentioned ought one can look to say whether there's a element of financial speculation going on here because there is an incentive in the situation if you're all invested in the goldman sachs commodity index to bid up the prices of commodities and keep them off the market for a while hoping to sell them later at a higher price that happens in the situation so i would first of all mobilized the ritual tori authorities to go after the financiers about that is by the way one approach is being taken in china where they're very conscious of the danger of price for social stability. You're looking at those particular commodity. Thinks you could when you can also ask. What can we do to increase available supplies so that the price increases for limited. Now also things that you can affect address without without going after the workers are after all. They're the consumers here. The ones affected by the prussian christians. But they're not driving. What would a regulatory targeting of of speculators look like who would who would lead that. Wow you have fragile toy. Authorities are responsible. But i look at you. Look at the look at the same at all. The regulators various institutions commodity futures trading commission probably have jurisdiction in this area. So i would like to non what they have to say about this. What's going on. I'm not saying that. I have the specific these hours before thanksgiving at right. These things do happen. You had you had very clearly happened in the run-up to the crash in two when they will price drew up two hundred forty eight dollars a barrel. Strong speculative element pint would would they need new legislation or do they have an ability to curb speculation on on their own. Already ought to have that sort of their things. Like rising margin requirements was Indirectly did new authorities seconds for it so back to the question of of smashing labor and driving workers into unemployment. Can you walk people through what the phillips curve is now. What is what its influence has been on. american global. economic policy-making phillips curve was a. Let's call it. An alleged statistical relationship that was originally based upon textually the united kingdom in the late nineteenth century twentieth century and then on the united states some recounts actually just short it by hands essentially for the us in the postwar period do very important twentieth century. Economists pulse emerson published an article on nineteen sixty seven the the phillips curve and it became part of kind of the folklore of economics of this parrot. The idea was that if you as you push the unemployment rate down which was considered by the way to be a good thing would have to pay a price in terms of arising rid of questions basically based upon historical alleged empirical relationship. There was never a very strong reasoning behind this. There were a number of economists. Who the tradition i grew up in were never accepted it as a serious argument but it became much embedded in the way in which particular generation of economists are calculated their forecasts from the economy and it was also very controversial right that basically said if you push the unemployment rate down yet runaway inflation so it's not a staple process and that became the dominant. What the reality which emerged in the last forty years and was always the case in almost all other countries was that the play right goes down not much happens to prices until some moment when some other event happens like they. Price shocks from the from the oil hub cartel or events of that nature. And at that point what happens is what depends upon the institutional structure this society in the us those affects tended to be drawn out over a period. I this was never the case. For example japan germany the result was that when a price shock happened attended to just pass through in a year in. Nobody said it was going to be an ongoing conflict. And i think we are now much closer to that historical situation historically everywhere else where we may see. Some price increases in pricing prices. But first of all they may simply go away and second of all they may have made the price go up and then they come down or they may simply stopped wiser and in neither case do you expect to see a prolonged period in which you have a generalized place of the expectation that is going to continue this kind of worry which is a almost a fetish of certain parts of the economics. Profession is really based upon a set of historical circumstances dubious enough at the time. But certainly not. I think apple so the situation. We're in that how widely held is fetish in today's mainstream economics. It it feels like it is still the conventional wisdom among the media. But it's hard to judge. You have some influential. Economists or larry. Summers is a leading example. Here make a big deal out of it and it's hard to the media as you say. Pick them up. There's an echo chamber there. I think the number of economou so express this view in hold who have a independent opinion on it at the based on their own. Serious king is actually pretty small but influential. How larry summers continued to believe this. You know he. He's a he's a smart cat he can see data like why has he held onto this idea long past its expiration date. Our you'll have to ask him that. Of course the if you pick up textbooks phillips curve. What's to be found in the pages of text books so someone who's thanks. Text the textbooks syrians and say well. Gee but the fact is economics textbooks repository so the history of ideas. That's really unfortunate. Because new generation students kind of then coquettish at various ideas which i know i tended to descend from them to begin with but they certainly haven't held up. Well that why larry summers is aligned with have as a question for for larry summers and back to what you mentioned earlier and you hinted at this in your essay that a real driver of inflation could be hostilities between the united states and china. When when we talk about how hostilities what what level are we talking shooting more or simple trade disputes. Because the both trump biden administration are. And i think rightly so like now trying to assert some us authority here in this trade relationship. What are they flirting with. Well i i don't think there's going to be shooting more with trump that there's no basis for one. There's no place for one to break out really a sort of sort of really moments suspect. Let's say taiwan and it's unclear we would be involved in that but what we're talking about here is the disruption of of the supply chains and there has been some disruption sport change there was some initial phases of the pandemic and there could be some as a result of a concerted policy on the part of the united states to break off dependence on chinese suppliers for all kinds of things which components of the things that we use here. And those things are gonna do that. You're going to drive up prices hub. Some of that is you know maybe strategically correct. You may want to say look for certain sets of goods we have a pandemic taught us this respect basic health supplies. You wanna have a reserve capacity in your own country so that you're not going to be called out if there's shift of global command apart so but then you just say okay. We're gonna pay higher price. You then turn around and say that when you look at that price as it turns up the consumer price index now. That's something gonna call. Inflation of the fed should react to a raising interest rates from people at work makes no sense at all You know strategic greece in the higher price for something now then. You know that. That's a reason do that for that purpose. Had you worked with him and and finally what. What do you make of the huge run up in in housing prices. And what do you think. The effect on the greater economy is going to be of that development. Well what we're saying huge been land prices. Are there some increase in construction prices as well but it's the price of housing is by and large the price of land in particular places. And what's driving that. Our our number of things. Honest people relocate. Change their patterns of what they what they want where they want to live. That's partly result of the pandemic in probably. If you're moving into the to the course you may find that the prices are not holding out at the moment. So there's there's that and then there's the demand for people are Are refinishing expanding. The houses slipping live in. And they're building you've got. You've got some trauma on the construction suppliers that is driven in part of course by the fact that people can through the pandemic which quite a long savings which was thanks to the very effective policies that were put in place early last year again early this year when there were there for the purpose of giving people the financial means to get through this. I would regard that as a as a transitory phenomenon by large. Now because it's a stock of savings and two ways it will be it reduced over time. One has possibly slowly as people are cautious about increasing their spending. In which case the will fact or it could be spent downs. Larry summers thinks it will be very quickly as people rush out to do things that they can't do differ aaron and compete to to to buy new houses and so forth but infants drawn down quickly. It'll be gone that much sooner. i mean there's only a certain amount of water the bathtub and that she drained slowly. It'll be there for a while trying to quickly. It will be gone out so neither case. Does it make sense to think of this as a source of of something that we were described as an inflation. Inflation problem is on it which is likely to be sustained over a substantial period of time. That's when you start worrying about it. You start worrying about people really having their economic lives. Disordered by not being able to effectively predict a manage. Their income smirks penetrates. But that's not what we're looking at here to panic about them to say the problem is that we did. We need to tighten up. The people who've been out of work for years works out of work even longer. This bizarre just doesn't make any sense at all and when when you last join us on the program you out you outlined a number of kind of transformational things you thought. Democrats ought to do to transition the economy into a into a healthier place. Post post pandemic Have you changed your thinking on any of that and have. Have you seen any of that begin to happen. Let's say they were Were number of issues. The one comes to mind immediately as the is the problem of household. That's and i think that problem is still lurking out. There is obviously okay. Helps if people have enough money to pay rent to keep up with their mortgages. But they're still according to reports. I've seen quite a lot under forbearance had caught a lotta backlogs built up. And you have you have an issue here. Which is a real issue of conflicting equities because a lot of the people who are a two two who are owed rent are small landlords who have taxes the mortgage to pay. And so there's this issue strikes me something really needs tension and We need understands. Full dimensions have have some way of dealing with it not to have a lot. More people basically tossed out victory for closed on when this moratorium come to an end. That's one area. Where i think we still have a substantial set of issues. The other two one of them had to do with the nature of the markets for the most advanced sectors. And i still think we have. We have not faced the need to transform things this you look at what's happening with the infrastructure bill and don't think we're gonna see a lot of bay transformation but the fact is as a society we're spending for example the military at a lot on certain kinds of advanced industries which are Where resources are where. The market's just announced promising while we need to do what we need to address the climate question urban reconstruction question metric wife. And i don't see that happening. It's very difficult to make it happen. When you have the divisions in the congress that were a one example of what we're saying was the bill that's just went through the senate on information technology and advanced industries and so forth. It was set up as an appeal competition with china. But who beneficiaries there. One of them is the military Another one that's the automotive sector needs chips in order to fall to the dashboards systems electronic controls that they had cars nowadays one. That's all very well good except that's not really a transformational investments. That's handled car industry. Which is the same old fossil fuel industry that we had before so their issues here that we need to deal with the third issue with employment and i still believe that there is a That if we had a job guaranteed program that people could have a secure base of employment offers. Then we would be through this trouble month. The problems for facing much quickly. There are a lot of people just the people coming back to work now but there are a lot of people who has not had the employment to population ratio is still i think. Four percentage points about five million people lower than it was even a year ago. Good deal lower than it was fifteen years. We'll professor golbright. Thanks so much for joining us again. deconstructed always plush. That was jamie galbraith. Some of you may remember that golf. Brace brush with european fame came when he and his friend jaanus pharaoh fox the outspoken radical. Greek economists advise the greek insurgent governing party of sereda in its showdown with germany over austerity measures. Vero focus later wrote a delightful memoir in it. He recounts in exchange. he had with larry summers. That helps explain the anger. Summers is feeling now. I'll read the passage. Finally after agreeing. Our next steps and before the combined effects of fatigue and alcohol forced us to call it a night. Summers looked at me. Intensely asked a question so well rehearsed that. I suspected he had used to test others before me. There are two kinds of politicians. He said insiders and outsiders the outsiders prioritized their freedom to speak their version of the truth. The price of their freedom is that they are ignored by the insiders who make important decisions. The insiders for their part follow is sacrosanct rule. Never turn against other insiders and never talk to outsiders about what insiders say the reward access to inside information and a chance. Though no guarantee of influencing powerful people outcomes with that somers arrived at his question so jaanus. He said which of the two are. You instinct urged me to respond with a single word. Instead i used quite a few by character. I am a natural outsider. I began but i hasten to add. I am prepared to strangle my character. Would help strike a new deal for greece that gets people out of debt. Prison have no doubt about this. Larry behave like a natural insider for as long as it takes to get a viable agreement on the table for greece indeed for europe. But if the insiders i am dealing with prove unwilling release greece from its eternal debt bondage i will not hesitate to turn whistleblower on them to return to the outside. Which is my natural habitat anyway. Fair enough said after a thoughtful pause. So now larry on the outside and he knows he can speak his mind but insiders are free to ignore him. That's got to sting focus and that's our show you constructed as a production of first look media and the intercept our producer. Zach young laura. Flynn is are supervising producer. The show was mixed brian pugh. Our theme music was composed by bart warshaw. That's read is the intercept editor in chief and i'm ryan grim dc bureau chief of the intercept. If you'd like to support our work go to the intercept dot com slash. Give your donation no matter what the amount that makes a real difference. If you haven't already please subscribe to the shows. You can hear it every week and please do leave us a rating or review. It helps people find the show. If you wanna give us feedback email us at podcast at the intercept dot com. Thanks so much. See you next week.

biden larry summers jamie galbraith fed united states galbraith Summers president biden white house Cnbc fox China summers Barack obama washington paul volcker bernie sanders larry
NYT: Internal Trump doc expects 200,000 new cases daily by June

The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell

43:30 min | 1 year ago

NYT: Internal Trump doc expects 200,000 new cases daily by June

"John Kenneth Galbraith President. Kennedy's ambassador to India was the most famous economist in the world. By the time in the nineteen seventies he created a BBC documentary series entitled the Age of Uncertainty Professor. Galbraith published a companion volume in the series with that same title the age of uncertainty in the uncertainty. That John Kenneth Galbraith was describing was the uncertainty created by science the uncertainty created by Knowledge. The uncertainty were living with tonight the uncertainty that surrounds the world. Tonight as we wonder. What's next in the corona virus and the uncertainty? John Kenneth Galbraith was describing was the dramatic change in the previous hundred years or so when the relatively new body of knowledge known as economics in the nineteenth century. Galbraith pointed out that economic theory was relatively simplistic and in the twentieth century. Economic Theory became more and more complex as our economic experience in our economic activities became more and more complex in the increasing complexity of economic theory created increasing uncertainty about the effectiveness of economic policy. Which idea is better than the other? Life was simpler centuries ago when the general consensus was that the Earth was flat and then Christopher Columbus sailed westward in the counter intuitive hopes of reaching the east and suddenly the world was round which meant the world was more complex. Scientists and academicians are attracted to the uncertainty they venture into the uncertainty to try to find some valuable certainties like vaccines many people if not most of us are at minimum on comfortable with uncertainty and in some cases utterly incapable of bearing any uncertainty at all and so when there is no certainty they install certainty to ease their discomfort. Some people turn to religion for such certainty. The ever certain Pat Robertson said recently that God would end this pandemic. If the American people would quote turn from their wicked ways. Robertson said quote. You confess your sins and forsake them. Then he heals the land. That kind of thinking had dominance for centuries until science got in the way until science raised the uncertainty. That there might be something better to do in the face of a pandemic than just confess our sins. Maybe we have to do more like wash our hands and not touch our faces and search for a vaccine and hope hope in the face of the uncertainty that we don't know if we will get the corona virus even if we take every possible precaution that we can the uncertainty that we don't know how long will we will be locked down in our homes the uncertainty that we don't know where we are tonight in the fight against the corona virus. Has It peaked. Is it generally trending down overall in this country or a we just had a plateau or is it going up or is it going to go back up? Dr Anthony Fauci. Using his scientific knowledge and experience has guaranteed a second of the corona virus guaranteed it removed uncertainty about a second wave. But is he right? We can admire respect. Anthony felt she and hope against hope that he is wrong. About that second wave we can hope that and so even Anthony. She's guarantee carries the mandatory uncertainty that all predictions must no matter how authoritative because they are still just predictions. And so tonight. We weighed deeper into the uncertainty again. With new projections revealed today. Showing DRAMATIC INCREASES IN CORONA virus cases and corona virus deaths just when some states are increasingly loosening restrictions on the belief that the worst is behind us. There is a limit to how much uncertainty each of us can bear before the strain of it just hurts asking high school senior waiting for colleges to decide on their applications the agonizing months of uncertainty. Now ask those same high school seniors and their parents how it feels to be living with the uncertainty that the colleges they were accepted to might not actually be open to students in the fall. We are all trapped in a maze of uncertainty which has very little chance of being invaded by certainty any times. We are uncertain about everything in the corona virus pandemic. We are uncertain about the number of people who have been killed by the crow virus in America because the virus was killing people weeks before we knew it was in this country and because people have been dying at home without being tested for corona virus. Either before or after death and so I can report to you that the official reported number of Corona virus cases as of tonight is one million one hundred eighty two thousand nine hundred ninety four. But we are uncertain. Just how much? That number understates the truth and I can report to you that we have had officially sixty eight thousand nine hundred thirty four official reported deaths from Corona virus but we are uncertain as to how many more thousands of people have died from virus in this country. And we are profoundly uncertain. About how many more will die. Professor Chris Murray of the Institute for Health Metrics and evaluation at the University of Washington has been running a model of the krona virus. Professor Murray's model which has in the past been used by the White House has now been revised to project about one hundred thirty five thousand cove nineteen deaths in the United States by early August. Here's Professor Murray. With Katy Tur today. The big increase in our numbers is coming from taking into account The trends in mobility people are out getting more active in the last week or ten days. And we're seeing that There's Taking off of social distancing that has a direct impact on how much contact and mobility that people will have so that gets factored into the MODEL. And it's driving up the numbers. St. Mary's model predicted that we would be roughly exactly where we are today on the of deaths and now he's predicting a dramatic increase. The New York Times is reporting. The trump administration has a model but it has not publicly released that projects that the death toll will double by June. The White House issued a statement saying that that model is a work in progress absorbed by some researchers and has not been used by the White House. Corona Virus Taskforce Donald Trump himself has constantly revised his own imaginary model of the corona virus. Death rate when you have fifteen people and the fifteen within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero That's a pretty good job we've done to become it'll go away. Looks like we'll be about sixty thousand mark which is forty thousand less than the lowest number thought of. We'RE GONNA lose anywhere from seventy five eighty one hundred thousand people that was last night. The trump model is now projecting one hundred thousand deaths and the trump model has never been right. The trump model has always underestimated what was coming. The search for Corona virus vaccine is filled with uncertainty. How long will that search take? How can that vaccine wants discovered manufactured and distributed to the world? Assuming we find a vaccine that really does work. And in the meantime we live with the uncertainty about antibodies. Some antibody testing. That's already in use has been Fr- flagrantly inaccurate and proven inaccurate and we are uncertain. About how much protection? Antibodies provide to the people who have them. If you get colonel virus and you then recover from. It are the antibodies. They're then going to make you immune from the corona virus. We do not know. Here's Dr Naji Misery of Louisiana State. University's hospital he has been keeping a video diary for us of life and death in New Orleans stock. The Mantra Video Log may second twenty twenty currently at our hospital we have to patients who were previously diagnosed and treated with covert nineteen tested negative prior to discharge their now back testing positive. That's scary now. Do we know that this virus is contagious? It's deadly in a select population now. We have proof that what we thought was true. Immunity may not actually be protective. There's a lot of people out there who subscribe to the theory that everyone should get this virus and therefore be protected from its effect the so-called her immunity theory which clearly doesn't hold water of patients like this can get reinfection. There's other people that believe in immunity passports that if you've been exposed to the virus you should be getting a passport to roam around society freely. Will again that has holes in that theory of patients like these can be reinfected. The only thing really that we know the only thing that we were immune to right now is the truth. The honest truth which is the fact that we actually don't know enough about this virus to come up with a definitive plan on. How move forward what we hope to do? In this hour. Every night is give you as much guidance as we can to help you. Steady yourself in this age of uncertainty and begin tomorrow with hope leading off our discussion. Tonight is Dr Margaret Hamburg. She's the former commissioner of the food and Drug Administration and former New York City. Commissioner of Health. Thank you very much for joining US tonight. I want you to take us right into the new uncertainties over these new projections of that. The death rate is going to keep going straight up. You're absolutely right. There is huge uncertainty that surrounds this unfolding pandemic and how best to control it. These new models tell us information that we should pay attention to models however are simply that their models of different possible futures that depend on the assumptions that went into the models. What factors you choose to emphasize and how much weight you put on them. But it certainly gives pause when you look at at the escalation in numbers in clearly the escalation when you think about the relaxation of some of the social distancing going on to me it reinforces the message that we should not only pay attention to the models but we should look at the data that we have at hand and we do now that there are certain criteria should create the framework for decision making about whether we're ready to begin to go back towards whatever the new normal will be and that is very important. What is the rate of new cases is coming down in your area? And the rate of new hospitalizations are your roles operating at full capacity. Or do you have Some play in the system so that if you have more cases you can manage them do have adequate testing to be able to identify. Not only those were clearly showing symptoms but also looking at what are the rates in the community of of as yet unrecognized spread of this virus importantly in certain congregate settings like nursing homes or meat packing plants where we know that the risk of an intense explosion of new cases can occur rapidly in very seriously and then you have the public health infrastructure to track in trace those who are infected. Make sure they're isolated and and those who've been exposed that need to be quarantined while you determine if they are in fact GonNa get sick. I WanNa go to a point that we just heard from Dr Missouri. Which is this question of antibodies? And there's a lot of now controversy around antibody testing because we're discovering some of these antibody tests have been rushed out Don't work and I mean in really big numbers not a not a small margin of error. But there's the question of what antibodies. What kind of immunity? If any do antibodies provide. When are we going to have certainty? And how do we get to certainty about antibodies? Well it's a critical question in it matters in terms of some of our understanding about individual behavior in this notion that if you have antibodies you've been infected before you're somehow safe now to go back into either highest settings if your healthcare worker or frontline responder or a component of how we think about headed back into workplaces in and other situations where there is larger gatherings people. It's also very important as we think about what will make for a successful effective protective vaccine and it is an area where we need to drill down as deeply as quickly as possible into the Science. We need to look at the experience about Infection and then a risk of reinfection in other countries that have already been grappling with this chronic virus epidemic and we need to do very specific studies to understand you know sort of what does immune protection look like with this particular disease an important to both the research and our public health and medical care management is having quality tests. That actually work. And I'm glad that today the FDA announced as I understand it that they're going to be requiring all companies to submit data about the validity and reliability of these antibody tests. I think it was unfortunate that As we were in earlier stages of this this outbreak. That decision was made to exercise. What's called enforcement discretion in not not require all companies to submit data about these tasks? Because if you don't know if they work it doesn't help you with managing patients. It doesn't help you with actually. Doing the research needed to understand what antibodies mean. Let's go to that uncertainty question about where we are in the timeline of this which includes where are we in the time line of how long we will be locked up at home which. I guess is can vary by region. And that's the question of Dr Anthony Cheese guarantee his his removal of Of uncertainty about a second wave he has said unequivocally there definitely is going to be a second wave. Do you think we have certainty about a second wave. Well I think you're absolutely correct that there is uncertainty about how all of this unfold in a lot of it depends on what we do. Some of it depends on the virus itself in. It is clearly a very formidable foe. We might have the scenario where we have rising cases into the fall. I hope that won't be the case will continue to exercise. Good judgement prudent public health practice in terms of managing social distancing and reducing opportunities for spread. We may be successful at reducing numbers quite significantly and have another way because that's the nature of the virus and it will Come back as people become more mobile and interactive restrictions are loosened. We may have a series of waves. It may not be one large waves. It could be a bunch of of of you know smaller but significant bursts of disease in different places across the country. Dr Margaret Hamburg. As I thank you for joining us once again tonight I also WanNa thank you as a physician for using your medical degree for public service. We all know there's ways your medical degree could have been used For with in many much more financially rewarding directions and all of you Physicians who've made this choice are very very important to our public health tonight. So thank you for that. Thank you thank you for the work. You do. Thank you very much. Thank you when we come back. Dr Sharon Duclos will join us you. I met her as I told as Rachel and I discussed on video on Rachel's program last week when she made a deeply moving statement in a press conference in Iowa about what the Coruna virus pandemic centered in the meatpacking. Plants is doing to her community. Dr Sharon plus will join US next. Hey everyone it's true mainly MSNBC correspondent and host of the new podcast into America in our latest episode NBC News Senior Financial Reporter. Greg Morganson looks at the state of Maine Street in America. Small businesses have been struggling with a two thousand eight financial crisis now. Corona virus pandemic has put millions more at risk. The federal government is trying to step in but the need is overwhelming. Can Main Street survive this crisis? Subscribe for Free. Wherever you get your podcast. I'm mainly host of into America. A podcast from NBC News and MSNBC. Join me as we go into the numbers. Eighty percent of patients don't have insurance right now into the choices. I have to plan a funeral in the age of the corona virus. How is this going to work? And into away through the importance of music is to keep our spirits up into America. A podcast about everyday people and the power that politics policy and a pedicab in shaping. Our lives new episodes every Monday and Thursday. I think about what would the person say to me who just died from this? How would they advocate helping? Other people not go through what they just went through. So that's what I think about so for the other businesses churches restaurants think about your community and think about your actions and think about how you can best serve the greater good last Wednesday when Rachel. I introduced us to doctor Sharon Duclos. Who will join us in a moment? She's the medical director of a local clinic in Waterloo Iowa since Dr. Douglas pleaded with Iowans to keep social distancing there have been two thousand eight hundred sixty more confirmed cases of corona virus and forty more deaths from krona virus in the state of Iowa. Dr Do glosses. Clinic is in Black Hawk county which has not reopened for business as much as other areas But we're at least fifteen. People have died of Krona virus including two reported yesterday since early March Black Hawk county has seen a consistent increase in the number of cases. There are now one thousand five hundred. Forty six confirmed cases in the county of one hundred thirty thousand people in Black Hawk. County up to ninety percent of the cases have been tied to Tyson's largest pork processing plant. Which is in Waterloo? That plant is just four miles from Dr. Do Closes Clinic today. Tyson said that the Waterloo plant will remain closed for now and joining us. Now is Dr Sharon. Douglas use a family physician in chief medical officer of People's community health clinic in Waterloo. Doctor Thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it and first of all to that concern that you expressed a last week. The worry about your own staff How're you and your staff at the clinic? Doing and his everyone healthy. We're actually doing really good. The majority of my staff are healthy. We've been quite lucky that we have not had many positive Covert Staff We continue to be very diligent about wearing. Rpi As we take care of people So that I gave I gave an order to all my providers order was is you cannot get sick. That's an order so I'm your boss. You cannot get sick We'll give me that order to DR L. Take that order. I appreciate a doctor. What was the impact of your statement locally that it was televised locally was also televised nationally last week. And do you have a sense of what you do that? What you were trying to communicate to people in Iowa got through to people in Iowa so it you hear a lot when you care for patients in you really feel for everybody right now because there's so much uncertainty and so as I'm working with one patient who has a family member who is struggling with the covert infection there in the hospital. Then I moved onto my next patient. Who is currently laid off in in doesn't understand why this has to happen so it's it's either faced or famine for a lot of people were we noticed was is because you always doubt yourself. Gosh is this really helping. Is it making differences social distancing and then when all of a sudden we started to see our positives and we realized it was positive. The person works at Tyson's positive person works at Tyson's then you're like we have a problem. You know twenty seven hundred people and our urgent care exploded Just within the next week to two weeks just exploded with the number of sick people but was even more profound is when you got those positive test results back then you started to make the phone calls so tell me who lives in your home. Where do where does this person work in? So you realize it is an underserved population like we're used to treating and then there's several people that live in the home eight to fifteen people so joe goes to work in. Tyson's he comes home. He's married he's married to somebody that works in a long term care facility at another manufacturing plant in then that's when the weight of what is going on that you realize. Oh my here. It goes here goes to spread. And that's exactly what happened. And so our plea was is that social distancing is working and just that one manufacturing plant. I just remember thinking. Oh my gosh this is just one plant. We had people lined up outside. We were trying to do the social distancing getting get them in rooms as quick as we can making them wait in your in their cars so they stay away from other people. We didn't want him to go to the pharmacy. Run MEDICINES OUT TO THEIR CAR. So they weren't they didn't have to walk through or are building But but it was it was explosive and overwhelming and then again the phone calls and I think to me the follow up was is here. Joe And I'm using Joe as a generic name. He goes home. He's trying to provide for his family. You know he's trying to make a living. And then what happens is he gives it to his parents who has been taken care of and now as elderly parents are in the hospital and they're struggling and not gonNA make it and I think that's just the whole were. You just feel that pressure in you feel for patients going through that Dr How do you handle it yourself when you talk about you? Feel that pressure I eat which is not the best way to handle pressure. I exercise which is better than what I've told. My staff is turn to alcohol because it only makes matters worse and then talk about it and. I think it's important for everybody to talk about it. I think we can all talk about the numbers The most important thing to realize today is is is uncertain. We don't know how long this is going to go on. And we have to live with the uncertainty. So how can we live with the uncertainty and take care of ourselves in? It is about the best we can do in the social distancing washing your hands wearing the mask out in public and not to protect yourself but to decrease the spread of germs. That you're not passing that on to someone else so there are some things that we can do to help each other and right now. I think that's what we need to focus on Sharon Duclos. Thank you very much for joining US tonight. You're the hero and our lineup tonight. And please come back from time to time to let us know how things are going. There and help guide us through this uncertainty. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you when we come back. House Intelligence Committee chairman. Adam Schiff will join us. We'll get Adam shifts reaction to the White House forbidding Dr Anthony Fauci from testifying to Congress. Dr Anthony Fauci said today interview with National Geographic quote. Everything about these step wise evolution over time strongly indicates that this virus evolved in nature and then jumped species that hasn't stopped the trump administration including the president and the Secretary of state from trying to blame China for creating the virus in the laboratory. And then letting it loose on the world I by killing China's own people joining us now is democratic congressman. Adam Schiff of California. He's the chairman of the House. Intelligence Committee chairmanship. Thank you very much for joining us. Tonight Anthony Fauci in this interview today had very little patients for any discussions about what might or might not have happened in a Chinese laboratory. He's saying look. This was transmitted from bats. We've seen this pattern before we know how to detect it It's not a mystery for him. Well look the president as you know. A couple of days ago said that he has high confidence that this virus escaped. The Lab pompeo served enormous evidence of that. If there is anything to have high confidence about in that regard or enormous evidence they have yet to share it with Congress and we are told that we are currently informed on the latest intelligence so I don't know where they're getting this Art from Either expressing their desire or they're withholding information from Congress. But I don't see what would be gained by doing so I think what they're trying to do is deflect attention away from the administration's terrible mishandling of this virus and all of the false narrative that the president was putting out early on about this going away on. Its own being no worse than the flu that we're going to contain it down to zero. And so they've chosen to go after China. Look there's a lot to criticize China about it. I want to make any mistakes about that. They should have been far more transparent about the human to human transmission and they did conceal things but whether they can get the intelligence agencies to somehow search for the conclusion they want to reach. That's not how the agencies are supposed to work and there's a danger in the administration either putting out theories that cannot be substantiated or deliberately provoking a fight during the middle of pandemic. The doctor Fauci also said today about that point. That president trump made that at a certain point he said it was just gonNA disappear doctor. Fauci said I don't think there's a chance that this virus is just going to disappear. It's going to be around. And if given the opportunity it will resurge we now We'll have a few months. May June July August to prepare. We need to not only have tests but to make sure the people who need tests get tested so that by the time we get to September. We don't have this dialogue continual continually fixated on testing. Shame on us if we don't have enough test by the time this so-called return might occur in the fall and winter of this these kinds of statements that Dr Franchi's making National Geographic are clearly against What president trump is saying in the message? President trump is pointing out and it sounds like the kind of testimony you would get if he was not banned from testifying to Congress. I think that's exactly right in the president. Does it tremendous People when he precludes some of the foremost experts from testifying before Congress and sharing what they know a now. It's clear why the president doesn't want patchy to come to Congress even though he's allowing doctor found she to speak at these White House Propaganda sessions for the president because apart and away from the glare of the president that he is concerned that Dr Will be even more candid with the country about the dangers of this virus. Anfield more free to contradict the false claims that the president is making a very poor reason to keep someone from Congress during a pandemic look. It is consistent completely consistent with his efforts to replace Inspector General's with his efforts to silence those who disagree with him and now his effort to deflect responsibility onto China for many of the ministry's own failings so it's aren't parcel of the president's modus operandi but a real disservice continuing disservice to the country chairmanship like to talk to you about the president's moves against inspectors general including the inspector general who started what became the impeachment process in effect by the Intelligence Communities Inspector General. If you could stay with us over this commercial break We'd like to do that when we come back. Including the health and Human Services Inspector General at the president's has gotten rid of if you could give us a moment we'll be right back with chairman. Adam schefters thank you. Donald Trump continues to get rid of inspectors general who tell truths that he doesn't want to hear the latest was Christie Grim who was the principal Deputy Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services. She issued a report saying there was a severe shortage of testing and testing supplies in this country and hospitals throughout this country in that was enough for Donald Trump to get rid of her freshman. Adam Schiff is back with US and chairman shift. We've seen this before. Donald Trump's attack on the inspectors general. And now it includes anyone who says the wrong thing of to. Donald Trump during this pandemic. That's true and of course this is very dangerous. The inspector general system was a post water eight reform designed to deal with the abuses of that era and now those abuses are back The president has systematically gone through and got rid of the Inspector General the intelligence community who reported to Congress that a whistleblower complaint was being withheld in violation of law. He got rid of the Inspector General. That was going overseas. The release of the pandemic relief funds that could hold the president accountable whether president was using favouritism cronyism and the allocation of relief funding or P. Two different states are now going after that health and Human Services a inspector general who reported all too accurately that she was hearing from hospitals all around the country that they did not have ventilators or the protective gear or the testing capacity while the president was saying that all of that was going perfectly. Well I am because she contradicted because the facts contradicted is preferred narrative. He views that as the ultimate disloyalty but the result is a lack of accountability. One final point on this Lawrence. It turned out to be this way. The Congress could stand up to this president but we have the confluence of a president. Who Tramples on these norms and is not guided by ethics or anything else except self interest apparently gop in Congress that is too weak or too unwilling to do anything about it if the Republicans would join us. We could put the requirements into law. Today that say the President and not remove Inspector General. Except for 'cause I think when he's gone we'll be able to do it. But the PUBLICANS will not defend their own institutions right now and it means that there's real lack of accountability during a pandemic and that is deadly dangerous and we can't act even slightly surprised by this because you told this was going to happen in your argument in the Senate impeachment trial. Well we certainly Told the senators that he was not going to change and there was no way to constrain him that he is who he is and he would continue to operate the way had an indeed. That's exactly what we've seen since now the one thing I think we dramatically understated is when we ask the question if you found him guilty. Do you really need to remove him? Even there's another election only nine months away. How much damage pretty really do? We sat a lot but little. Did we know Just how great. The casualties would be You know some days. We lose the equivalent of the number of people. We lost nine eleven. And you know I Think that there's no way we could have foreseen Just how tragic his malfeasance would be in the remaining months of his administration chairman. Adam Schiff. Thank you very much for joining us. Not really appreciate it thank you. We are racing past a recession toward depression. The likes of which we haven't seen since the nineteen thirties. When Democratic President Franklin Delano Roosevelt Crafted? The new economic policies necessary to list. Lift us out of that depression. This depression is very different. This depression pushes us into an economic age of uncertainty. Unlike any other gene sperling was an economic advisor to President Clinton and President Obama Gene. Sperling will join US next. We have the largest number of claims for unemployment benefits in the history of the unemployment program. Thirty point three million first time unemployment claims have been filed just in the last six weeks and those unemployment claims understate the real unemployment. That has it. America's and so many people have been struggling to file and haven't been able to file within their state systems that are overburdened. And so we are in an economic age of uncertainty tonight. Unlike any other we have experience joining us now is gene sperling. He is the former director of the National Economic Council for Presidents Obama and Clinton he is also the author of the new Book Economic Dignity which will be published tomorrow which means it's available online for purchase at midnight tonight gene sperling. Thank you very much for joining us tonight and gene with these unemployment numbers. We're racing past any anything that we ever described as a recession before and we are getting ever closer every day to what. Fdr inherited as president in the Nineteen Thirties of an all out depression. Which is the ultimate robbery of economic dignity from a population? Yeah absolutely at you know. I think that obviously we're going to be seeing shocking numbers. This Friday on the number of jobs lost on the unemployment rate over twenty million. Maybe over twenty percent. But you know she say this. Is that moment? This is a moment of truth on economic dignity for our country in Lawrence. You and I both. We both have one thing in common. We both really like Martin. Luther King's speech to the sanitation At sanitation worker strike in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight. And what did he say he said? Not only that. All Labor have dignity but the sanitation worker and the physician were both essential to our health to our well-being and that might have seen kind of idealistic. But not now right now. It's very real and I think the recognition of what it means. A of the value of farm workers in delivers in home health agent domestic workers has never been higher. But we are not having that. Fdr moment where we say that we recognize that dignity. And we're going to treat people with that level of dignity and just take for example the discussion we were having earlier. You know people working in the meat processing and poultry those among the most dangerous job occupations their poorly regulated in the poultry industry. Some people have had to wear diapers because they couldn't have time for bathroom breaks and to have the President United States or you back to work as an essential worker and then take away the responsibility of your employer to ensure you are safe. That is an example of treating people without the kind of basic level of dignity. The question for us is going to be not just do. We have the kind of essential workers bill of rights that Roca Hannah Elizabeth. Warren have talked about which we should. But whether this is going to make us rethink our economic compaq weather. We're going to have a greater economic dignity compact and have a new new deal and I think if this moment doesn't push us towards that. I don't know what wealth well June. What strikes me as it did. The depression did push us toward our first major steps toward economic dignity of through the through. Fdr's new deal urged on him by Elizabeth Perkins and that was at a time when the country was bankrupt and you re Republicans could argue. The federal government cannot afford this. We cannot afford these interventions. We're GONNA hear those arguments In this situation where we can we can afford to bail out certain corporations but we cannot afford the kind of support for workers That you're calling for right. I mean look. We can't afford to spend any money that's wasted that's on people who don't need it on large corporations that have been give them unjust enrichment where it's not connected to them helping workers which is exactly what president trump and his team are calling for but believe me we can afford every penny that helps make people whole that gives them a hundred percent replacement on unemployment or that does the type of things Congresswoman Julia Paul and Bernie Sanders. Mark Warner have been talking about to ensure the people who'd be laid off through their company are kept on the payroll we can afford to do. Universal paid sickly and to deal with the tens of millions who may be losing their healthcare mattress. Because it's the right thing morally but because if we do those things we will have a will be safer. We'll have less community spread. And so I think we've seen some movement towards that new new deal. We've seen good workers getting unemployment insurance. We've seen some move towards universal paid sick leave and perhaps a greater impetus to the idea that there should be at least a fifteen dollars minimum wage and universal healthcare. But I think the real fight is going to be. Are we going to get this now? And then turn our heads or is this gonNA Or these temporary reforms can be part of our larger and longer term social contact gene. What's the basic takeaway you want readers to get from? Your book? Economic Dignity that our North Star for economics shouldn't be about a metric like GDP or productivity. It should be about what our ultimate aspiration. As for lifting up human happiness fulfillment. That's what economic should be about. And I wanted to define economic dignity in a way that it could be that northstar that means three things that means the -bility to care for your family to be able to pursue your potential purpose and to be able to work without the type of domination in that we still see today even before our eyes that is the single best definition of governing policy toward economics that I have heard gene sperling. The new book is economic dignity. Gene thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it. Thank you for having me Lawrence. I appreciate it give. Gene sperling gets tonight's last word and those that last word is economic dignity there. It is right there I haven't yet.

president Donald Trump President America United States Adam Schiff Dr Sharon Duclos Dr Anthony Fauci Iowa Congress gene sperling chairman Dr Margaret Hamburg John Kenneth Galbraith Economic Theory White House President Obama Gene Tyson China federal government
College intern began work the day he was killed

The Daily Article

05:35 min | 2 years ago

College intern began work the day he was killed

"Really? College. Intern began work the day. He was killed. This is Jim Dennison's daily article for Monday, February eighteenth twenty nineteen Gary Montas Martin went into his local circle k convenience store to buy a few cigars last Friday. He did this almost everyday store clerk city seemed fine hours later he learned he'd been fired from his job and allegedly shot five co workers to death. We're now learning more about his victims was Josh pinker. Who sent his wife this text? I love you. I've been shot at work. He did not survive leaving his wife and three children. The Cinta Horace was a father of three and grandfather of eight Russell. Bayer had a daughter Aniston in would've turned forty eight this Thursday, Clayton parks left, his wife and a young son in Trevor Wehner was a student at northern Illinois university who began as an intern that day he was scheduled to graduate in may the company's determining if any. Thing can be done in the future to ensure this horrible incident is never repeated since the park when shooting on February fourteenth twenty eighteen there have been nearly three hundred fifty mass shootings in the US nearly one a day. Whether the issue is crime and violence disasters or disease when we look at the future through the prism of the present. It's easy to abandon hope. Socrates taught us that the key to knowledge is to know themself from then to now western civilization is focused on the individual are existential worldview, limits are experienced to ourselves gene pulsar tra- claimed that man is nothing else. But what he makes of himself as a result? We cannot believe in a future. We cannot see in the present. That's why Nichii could say regarding life. The wisest men of all ages have judged like it is worthless. Economist John Kenneth Galbraith said we all agree that pessimism is a Mark of superior intellect. Cyrano diversion at claimed that a pessimist is a man who tells the truth prematurely, actually, the opposite is true. A pessimist is a man who decides the truth prematurely as Robert Shuler noted pessimism drops the curtain on tomorrow. I've been studying the biblical story of Joseph lately in Genesis forty-three. We learned that the famine was severe in the land. This was the seven year. Famine Joseph predicted years earlier to prepare for Phero elevated him to second in charge of the nation, though. Suffering from the famine had no way to know that God, which using this disaster for larger redemptive purpose. They could not know that the famine would lead Joseph's family to join him in Egypt where they would be saved the could not know that Joseph's family would establish the nation from which the messiah of the world would one day. Come all world knew was that the famine was severe in the land. Much of what God is doing to. Redeem tragedy is not apparent at the time. Think of the forty years Moses spent in the desert before he led his people out of Egypt in slavery. Remember, the forty years they spent in the wilderness until new generation was ready to enter the promised land think of shadow acme shack Abednego as they were condemned to the fiery furnace or Daniel as he was thrown into the lines den or Peter in prison the night before he was to be executed by Herod or Paul in a Philippine jail or John. Excellent patmos. None of them could no win and how they're suffering would be redeemed by God's providential independence when we're in the darkness of night. We cannot see the brightness of day if as tell hard day shar an wrote the world will belong tomorrow to those who brought it the greatest hope how can we offer our culture a realistic path to hope for the future. How can we find such hope for our souls? One expect God to do. What is best broaddrick buke wants met in a Piscopo a woman who had a ministry of faith healing. Here was the essence of her message. You had to expect you had to believe it was faith that unbound. The hands of Jesus so that through your prayers his power could flow in miracles could happen healing could happen because we're faith was healing always was too. She said, and there is no power on earth that could prevent it inside us all she said. There was a voice of doubt and disbelief which sought to drown out our prayers, even as we were praying them. But we were pray down that voice for all. We were worth because it was simply the product of old hurts griefs failures of all that the world had done to try to destroy our faith. Is that voice speaking to you this morning to trust at the present will be used for a redemptive future Oswald? Chambers wrote at times puts us through the discipline of darkness to teach us to heat him songbirds are taught to sing in the dark, and we were put into the shadow of God's hand until we. Learn to hear him chambers also notes that God does not give us overcoming life. He gives us life as we overcome. He adds if we will do the, overcoming we shall find. We are inspired of God because he gives life immediately. What do you need to overcome today? Three offer. Someone hope for the future in the present injury. Now and wrote the fragmentation of humanity, and it's agony grow from the false supposition that all human beings have to fight for the right to be appreciated and loved this false supposition seems to make the news daily if you and I offer someone the appreciation and love of God's inclusive grace how much hope will we infuse into their soul and ours? For more news to certain differently or receive daily article through Email, please. Visit Denison form dot org. Thank you for listening to today's daily article podcast.

Joseph Intern John Kenneth Galbraith Egypt Jim Dennison Josh pinker Cinta Horace Gary Montas Martin Chambers US northern Illinois university Robert Shuler Moses Socrates Piscopo Nichii Trevor Wehner Daniel Russell Clayton parks
The Power of Friendship With Molly Galbraith

Live Happy Now

18:38 min | 3 months ago

The Power of Friendship With Molly Galbraith

"Welcome to episode three hundred and three of live. Happy now this week. We're celebrating friendships and learning how to build stronger connections. I'm your host paula phelps. And today i'm joined by molly galbraith. Founder of the girls gone strong fitness movement and author of the new book. Strong women lift each other up. Molly looks at how supporting one another creates a ripple effect that generates new opportunities and deepen relationships. Let's hear more about how she discovered the superpower called friendship and how all of us can improve our own relationships. Molly welcome to live happy. Now thank you so much. Follow on thrilled to be here. You know you've got an important topic for us to talk about and in a minute we're gonna be talking about the power of friendship and connection but i really wanted to talk before we dive completely into that like why it is so important to you to have a support each other so early on in my life i experienced probably like a lot of women girls some instances of bullying and actually jumping in and being a bully at times and just really wanting to feel as though our belonged was part of the group in part of the in crowd i grew up the one scarcity in my life so my dad was an activist and politician in what he was. Activists for was not super popular at the time and didn't have a lot of money and records divorce tumultuous childhood where i had to switch schools didn't have friends and didn't have cool clothes in this dad that some of the other parents of the kids thought maybe weren't suitable for the kids to be friends with me and things like that so i just struggled along growing up with wanting to belong one connection and wanting to be part of a group of people and i know now as an adult that i have the language i wanted to be loved for who i was and i was really struggling missing that in my early years will. What's interesting is so many times. Those kind of experiences can cause people to withdraw to not be as social as as you are so. Why did it affect you differently. Why were you able to say. I didn't have that in childhood. But i'm going to achieve that as a young adult and it through adulthood. Yeah so like. I said early on middle school and elementary school middle school experienced saab. Bullying was early part of the cool crowd. I had kind of a little bit of personal transformation the summer before my freshman year of high school so finally made the elusive cheerleading slot. Had tried out for three times in. Couldn't make my mom new job and started making a little more money. And i could get my hair highlighted. Basically went through puberty develop breslow overnight the first day of high school i showed up and it had blond hair. They breasted cheerleader and all of a sudden reading changed. It was like a scene out of one of those high school movies where the girl shakes her hair out of a bond. And everyone's like who's the new girl and she's been there mr getting a lot of attention affirmation of people who previously made fun of me or ignored me. All of a sudden wanted to my friend. And so i started feeling how good it felt to be on the inside for the problem was is it taught me that the way that i looked with more important than who i was and so next ten or fifteen years. I was still seeking mathematician. Love that connection but it was doing it in a way that my relationships were very surface level so they were kind of like hotwired right. We were connecting over gossiping about people or you know all of us looking to certain way or having the right clothes things like that. So i knew that i wanted connection and meaningful friendships. That i didn't have language worth the time and didn't really know how to do it. So it's always centered around wanting to belong wanting to feel good enough wanting to seek that connection but not necessarily knowing how to do it. Luckily in around two thousand eight started going to therapy and my then partner told me that i struggled be vulnerable with him and our relationship in the joke now is that they're happy worked so well now on the internet all the way over the other direction but doing that. I was able to get a lot more introspective develop of the skills that i needed understand how to have meaningful friendships. Net gone through a lot of personal transformation. Said that was about eight or nine years ago. When i decided i wanted to stop putting myself worth in the way that my body looked. I wanted to stop you. Know seeking attention affirmation for things that were fleeing could be taken away from me. And i wanted to stop carrying what other people thought of me and live true to myself and i wanted to like myself. I and so it through a massive transformation of eight or nine years ago and truly everything in my life has changed since then and then you've also developed this philosophy. This strong women. Lift each other up which i love that. And can you talk about how that philosophy came about and how you're kind of deploying. Yes so several years ago. Gosh probably eight or nine years ago. At that point i have can order. Jim and i didn't even occur to me when i first started health and fitness seventeen years ago to focus primarily on working with women by teamed up with former business partner mind in his focus was helping women get strong in the gym. I started working wheel. Jim together. I started working primarily with women and it was so much fun to see the inner transformation that women in our community had when they realized what were capable of when they saw. How strong really were when we hope to change your interactive about possible for them what they were capable of so that was something that i really enjoyed Nanny many years before that. I had a massage therapist friend. Who was the first woman that i had ever sent any time with. Who never spoke negatively other women and who got true joy out of lifting women up. And you're speaking life into them in being relate positive toward them and kind of planted a little seed me but at nineteen stuck in gossip magazines in reality. Tv and sorority. Life wasn't quite ready to go there yet but she certainly landed a seat in to to lift other women have. I just didn't know how than has started. My jury in health and fitness working primarily with women. I realized how much. I love helping women but i was being held back what was being held back. Why is something that i now know. We're gonna call scarcity mindset and the comparison tracks so people listening to this woman listening to these things might sound familiar to you scrolling through social media feeling like you're not pretty enough not fit enough not lean enough not successful enough not good enough parent not doing enough to help in the world or comparing yourself to past versions of yourself so you know it used to be so much fitter leaner healthier or comparing yourself to future versions of yourself like when i lose fifteen pounds when i get this promotion when i'm in a relationship and then i will be good. Offer feel good realized around two thousand thirteen again when i had kind of body image. Transformation also realized that. I was stuck in that comparison traffic scarcity mindset. So i wanted to help other women deeply. But i was held back by feelings of comparison competition. Jealousy feeling like i didn't measure out and makes a lot of sense looking back now because at this moment in time here are fewer opportunities for women. We look around. And we see that there's less opportunity now for renting and when we think is normal allah allah than we're willing to compete with each other for scraps instead of demanding more for ourselves and each other and so in fitness for example. You go to a conference in there's ten acres nine of them are male right. There might be one woman seeking. Will i wanna speak at that conference. And i believe i buy into the narrative that there's only one stays women will. I'm going to be significantly more likely to try to compete with my friends and colleagues for that sought instead of working together to create more spots for women to seek and so builds kind of feed forward cycle of what it's going to take to create a kind of change that we want to create in the world. Is women working together. But when we're stuck in a track with believing that there is less opportunity for women and that we have to compete with each other for those limited opportunities that pits us against each other. So how do we learn to address those things and keep that from interfering in our relationships with other people. Because i think especially against social media has done some wonderful things but it's also been very harmful in terms of that comparison and i think it prevents some of the sense of community that we could have especially women so this tactic is called. Notice name normalized from the field of behavior change they Any idea first. Step to changing. Anything is simply to notice name. Normalized what you're feeling so that raises awareness about it. So that's what noticing does raise awareness higher feeling naming. How you're feeling there's actually evidence to suggest that naming how you're feeling reduces the intensity of the emotion in the moment normalizing. It helps us refrain from judging ourselves for the understanding that it's normal reaction and that we can do something about it and then the next step is getting curious so getting curious has been one of the most life changing skills that i've developed since starting their thirteen years ago. Because it's allowed me to not just get introspective. Figure out what's going on with myself. But it's also allowed me to create a little bit of space between whatever's happening in the moment and how i respond to what's happening in a moment and so when you get curious especially when you're having feelings of jealousy or envy it allows you to understand where those are coming from and what to actually do with it so for example jealousy can be a really powerful compass that can help us determine if you know it's a good direction or something that we want our lives over scrolling Yet we see someone who just got a job promotion for example and we're feeling pang of jealousy because were unhappy in our job loss of job or not not enjoying what we're doing and really feeling that i'm just not happy not feeling not happy for this person. I'm really jealous. If this person to able say okay so this person just got promotion. I'm kind of familiar with what they do. I know they work a whole lot of hours. Worked incredibly hard to get that promotion. Is that something that i would want for myself. Yes want the promotion. But do i want what it takes to have to put that time and effort to get it and if the answer is no then we can say okay great so she not promotion but she's having to do a lot of things that don't align with what i want for my life like my values it allows us to create a little bit of space between ourselves in that emotion on the other hand when i was writing this book. For example. One of my best friends rene jen collins. She talked about in chapter four the book at the beginning of our relationship. We struggled with both being jealous of one another not even knowing it and when i told her i was reading. This book are relationships. Transform relied over the years she said. Oh my gosh. I have the happiest hang of jealousy for you row now because i have always wanted to write a book. This is nothing. I've always wind for myself. I'm so proud of you. I'm so excited for you when you deserve it and it was really beautiful. Reignition of i'm so happy for you and this is something that i want for myself. And so her being able to recognize why she was feeling jealous. Gave her insight into the fact that this is something that she wants for herself. But instead of putting me down or saying like Deserve better you know why she writing a book instead. She's like you're amazing. You deserve this. I'm so excited for you. She supported me every step of the way and in the beautiful kind of full circle strong women lift each other up. Ripple effect of that is when the time comes if she chooses to write a book she has a friend who has done methane who can make the introductions and share the insider knowledge and support her and be excited for her so instead of me shutting the door behind me because she you know was unhappy from year. Mistreated me when i told her. I have my hand reaching high. Need to pull her along to do the exact same thing. Time comes to do it. What happens when the person doesn't respond that way. Say you've got a friend and you have great things going on in your life and your ear share with them and they're not able to accept that you know it's like they're jealous hurt their wishing that had been their life circumstance. Now that can cause. I've seen a couple of situations recently whereas caused some real rifts. So how do we deal with those situations he added. That can be really difficult. that is easiest for. It's helpful for me when he got any type of negative response from people is again getting a little bit curious about where that may be coming from because most of the time when someone is struggling to be happy for out for us is struggling with whatever is going on tend himself right For me depends on unable to see that what they are giving to me in. That moment is what they have inside of them. And i'm able to have a little bit more compassionate empathy for where they're coming from. I think that if we have to go in our lives who are consistently never happy for us in anything that we do. That's a little bit of a bigger issue in that. Might be someone that we have to set certain boundaries with right i'm not a fan of like we cut him out of your life. One hundred percent right maybe. There's someone that you don't talk about that kind of stuff with and you just enjoy other different activities or other parts of your relationship memory. We have. We have certain friends that we have g conversations with certain friends but we like to certain restaurants. We have certain brands that we cry to when we're struggling with people in our lives in we can have different types of friendships are services that you have someone who has consistently not able to be excited for your happy for you when good things are happening in your life than i think. That's definitely an opportunity to reexamine that relationship. We do have to let you go. But before i do that. I want to find out what we can do to start deepening. Our connections with others like us are here in isolated. Maybe our relationships have suffered because people just haven't been in touch like they should have been or could have been dropped twenty for obvious reasons for other reasons. So what are some of those things that we can do to deepen connection with friends. That is such a great question and it's hard because like you said so. Many of us are feeling nice Were feeling tapped out or feelings spent for me. One of the best things that i've done in my relationships is to reach out to people that i care about and let them know i'm thinking about them and that there is zero expectation of a response and to detach from whether or not they respond particularly. No other people are struggling. The pandemic has been incredibly hard for all of us. And it's been harder for certain people. It's been harder for people who have lost their jobs. It's harder for people who have multiple kids at home are trying to navigate distance learning. It's been hard for people who lost loved ones in so at this point in time. I'm in a position where i hadn't experienced those things while i may be a little bit too pleaded. I do think. I have more bandwidth than some of the other folks in my life. I've done a lot of reaching out saying. Hey just one election of thinking about you a love you no to respond back when he chat and i think that's such a beautiful way to san thinking about you and i'm not putting any expectation of more labor or obligation on you at this moment in time because that's something so many people are just like you said worn out from it so is up feel-good message that lets people know that you care about them that you wanna know how doing you're there for them but that you're not expecting anything. I have found to be a powerful relationship keeping her especially when we're wanting to deepen relationships with people who are having a hard time of our that is such excellent insight and i appreciate you coming on the show and sharing what you are sharing with others on a daily basis so again thank you thank you for all the to help us deep connections improve our friendships and lift each other up that you call it. Sin session honored to be here. That was molly galbraith. Author of the new book. Strong women lift each other up. If you'd like to learn more about molly. Her girls gone strong movement by her book or follow her on social media. Visit us at live happy now dot com and follow the links as you might already know. We celebrate the international day of happiness on march twentieth. And we're celebrating with a whole month of what we call. Happy acts as part of that. We're inviting all our listeners. To participate in the ten day live happy. Gratitude challenge to be a part of this. Just take a few minutes to express gratitude on your social media platform to a different person every day for ten days each time you tag a person and explain why are grateful for them. Invite them to participate in gratitude. Challenge to be sure to use the tags live happy and gratitude challenge and include a photo or even short video in addition to enjoy all the benefits that gratitude brings. You can also win some great live. Happy prizes learn more about this at live happy dot com or on our live. Happy facebook page. That's all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode until then. This is paula phelps. Reminding you to make every day a happy one.

molly galbraith paula phelps middle school and elementary s breslow Molly Jim rene jen collins mr molly facebook
Episodio 003 - La nueva normalidad en mi trabajo (1/2)

Otro Boleto Podcast

37:30 min | 3 months ago

Episodio 003 - La nueva normalidad en mi trabajo (1/2)

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393. Recomendaciones de podcast III

Al otro lado del micrófono

09:55 min | 3 d ago

393. Recomendaciones de podcast III

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How Trump Led Me to the Dharma

Trumpcast

51:39 min | 9 months ago

How Trump Led Me to the Dharma

"Support for this podcast comes from philosophy global twenty twenty has changed the way companies around the world do business, but your international growth plants don't have to wait velocity globals. International Peo solution enables you to quickly and compliantly higher overseas without using independent contractors or establishing a legal entity visit velocity global dot com slash expand to learn how International Peo- simplifies global expansion over one hundred and eighty five markets. That's velocity global dot com slash expand. The fact is a cheerleader for this country I love our country and I don't want people to be frightened I don't want to create panic as you say and certainly I'm not going to drive. This country or the world into a frenzy. Way To avoid panic is to show leadership to say this is what the challenge is. We're GONNA use the best scientific evidence. That is available to us to contain it. Looks. Sure why people don't get it donald trump is racist everybody who? Knows is telling you that demand is a racist. Hello and welcome to trump cast. I'm Virginia Heffernan so bill bars in Justice Department big footed in on trump's or legal problems. Once again now, legal problems for trump aren't merely legal problems. They're not like you know late rent checks their better described as a shadow of the violent crimes he committed in the nineteen ninety s when he raped the immensely accomplished journalist e Jean Carroll. Why don't I say allegedly raped? Well, because each gene has been a guest on this show is a friend of mine. She is profoundly credible and I believe her as an intimate I witnessed to trump's violent crime that she's witnessed a crime of which she was. The victim. So imagine if your buddy came home from a bar shaken up and said, he'd been hit you'd have no reason to doubt him and that's how I feel about aging. But because I'm a journalist, I even did due diligence and spoke to. Friends whom she told about the rape at the time and so since they say, he did it e Jean Carroll says he did it. She's got no history of lying and no reason to lie about this and trump says, he did not do it and he's got nothing. But a history of lying in every reason in the world to lie about this, I don't use alleged and I never will. Each Ian was also defamed on twitter by the rapist who also happens to be president of the United. States there should be no world in which a person's abused at the hands of another only have that abuser defame her with infantile taunts about her appearance and her character. Can you just for a second imagine going through this? Nasty Pelosi and Maria the Novic and Robert Muller have all endured an endless parade of people that trump has constantly jab that simply for doing their job. Now to be vituperation did from the twitter pulpit of the president. This is, of course are very world and it happens now day people who die for the country are chumps people who aim for reform in Ukraine will go through some things. People do their jobs as journalists are nasty and corrupt, and of course, other politicians especially, women deserve to be jailed and hanged. This is the world trump has made. And then there's bill bar. Bill Bar in the Roy Cohn slot has said that trump's decision to defame. One of the women he raped is well within his scope of presidential behavior and that means that our department of Justice, which we pay for has jumped into play, Alan Dershowitz and this occasion trump evidently was doing his job to say that the woman he raped now radiant at seventy six is ugly. What is the job of president such that Bill Barr thinks? This is part of it. My guest today knows the business of lying for trump. Well, he did it himself in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, seven when he wrote the book, the art of the deal which bears trump's name although trump never even read it much less wrote it Tony Schwartz admits now he whitewashed trump's character and career. He takes responsibility for his part in trump's rise to power. He donates the royalties from that book to causes for immigrants and refugees. So trumpets if you're listening if you buy your neon. Gods Book your money goes to refugees anyway Tony who was once my boss has a new book called dealing with the Devil, my mother trump and me it's a short audio book about how Tony's time with trump represented a crisis in his life. Does this sound familiar our time with trump as Americans represents crisis in our lives and how all of that for Tony led him to reflect on his past atone for what he saw as his misdeeds and revise his moral and personal commitments. Tony. Welcome. Back to cast. Thank you. I think you were here with my colleague who originated the role of trump cast host like a Broadway Role Jacob Weisberg early when either Jane Mayor's piece came out or something you wrote came out about writing the art of deal with Donald Trump I can't remember the exact details so much time has gone by I wish I could say it's flown by it has not flown by it has been a slog anyway here we are twenty twenty and you have another book. Sort of about trump and what I was going to say to you before we started is that your book reminds me a little bit of Mary Trump's book in the sense that both of you came to the fact of the trump presidency with a relationship with Donald trump and a set of psychological and political commitments, and all of that was reopened when trump was made president and I think in that way, you're a proxy for so many Americans, you know you are the ones that woke up. Sobbing after the election or at least in a state of absolute confusion and had everything you ever believed suddenly up for grabs I know what happened with me it's happened to so many people on the show including evaluating their relationship with their parents, their relationship with money their relationship with education, their relationship with corruption, their relationship, the left, and the right of politics with the Republican Party in general with the law with the Justice Department, all those things that I know this happened to you and in particular it affected how you reflected on your relationship with. Your mother and I think I've now set up set the stage for your book and why it's relevant for today. So talk us through this book, which is out as an audio book. Well, it's a book about three of the primary doubles that I've had deal with with your over the course of my life, my mother trump and myself I had some other ones. But this book focuses on those three Virginia truly a bad how I moved on from writing the art of the deal by reckoning with the trump in me and what it took me. To are how I responded to the experience which runs a profound and not necessarily a good way a profound experience of alongside trump and work. It prompted me to do in my life and I think it prompted me to make some pretty dramatic changes and as you just said to reflect much more deeply on a lot of things that doing that book brought up for me, I may be the only living human being who can say even Botica truths to trump led me to the Dharma. Yeah maybe Robert Wright he has a book out about being a Buddhist and trump times, but I think he already was and I know that he through your life you were kind of on a walkabout after finishing the art of the deal with him. I should say listeners I worked for Tony Schwartz on a book. That way gets short shrift and your new book, but this is an. Autobiography of another mogul that we both did together in a kind of crazy adventure after the art of the deal, and after the book that followed the follow the art of the deal. So there's a book in between and that's the what really matters. So maybe talk a little bit about what really matters because you know it's one of your best books and it doesn't get enough attention. So, what really matters grew directly out of the experience of writing the trump poked essentially it was this I woke up with a book that was number one I was about to earn. I. Knew I was more money a few months than I'd earned in the entire length of my journalistic career. I was going to have a freedom to choose whatever I wanted to write about next because I will be under so much pressure financially, and it was not definitely today not call it the ideal outcome, but it was a form of. The American dream and what was stunning for me is that what I mostly felt in the aftermath of trump despite all this that was going on was empty and I think it was that I always had in my mind that if I could have enough success if I could get enough recognition that I would feel better about myself that I would feel good and now I actually had done it and what learned as most people who have big external successes of some kind or another learn is that it didn't solve the problem. The same genes that I had before I still had except I, no longer believe but I could solve the by having by writing a bestselling book and that inventory in a way took the form. The first iteration of it was this book what really matters which it partly that led you to the Dharma. To a robust meditation practice that you've had ever since I knew you yeah, well, trump led me to what really matters since what happened is that I literally search stopped in my trump. And I said Ed is this the life I wanna live I don't mean doing multiple books with scoundrels. Do I wanna live a life first of all in which? The main thing I do is describe other people's experience and not necessarily be a player myself and do I want to do journalism even honorable journalism than I'm not convinced adds value in the world which I was not convinced about journalism I was doing even before I wrote trump book. So that's what really prompted me to right what really matters to start looking for a way of life that was different than what I was referring to is the American dream that had awarded you with what's going on inside me or what's going inside you and that took account of the interior life and how it influences how I showed up in the world. That's. Why that book I think is especially pivotal. So you also after writing the art of the deal I know you got some flack for it. You got some good reviews for from those in the you know would be liberal establishment of publishing saying you know that you had managed to make this kind of fun bar. Roguish. Barney kind of character out of trump and it's certainly the art of the deal is certainly very readable on the other hand. John. Kenneth Galbraith and I had forgotten this until I accounted this in your current book said that you had sort of done a grave disservice I mean he was wrong that you would hurt trump. Trump's biggest successes where it had of him. But that you had put more than lipstick on a pig that you had kind of whitewashed something that if it was galbraith re raith writing, it must have been economically and politically trump was not a good figure for the nation. What was that? Combo like were you able to who? Like I'm laughing all the way to my limousine and my fancy new house John Kenneth Galbraith you know, where's your invitation to trump tower or did you think to yourself sinking feeling? You know I have done something somehow wrong go louder in spades I. I'm looking out my window right now from my office. in Riverdale in the Bronx and a across the way is the House that Christopher Lehmann out the tons book reviewer for many years lived in and Leman. How do I barely knew but I could see his house? Written initially this exuberantly positive review of the art of the deal and I thought when I came out, which is before Galbraith I thought Oh, my job I got over on. What walks going up. Say these sometimes it's worse when people don't instantly see through you because you think I can get away with this forever. Well, I know want to be seen through because I don't want to believe there's a to be seen through. I want people to see what's actually there. But what was actually there at that time was not my best self in any in any way that I could imagine. So Galbraith writes this review in New York review of books for as little that even astonishing John Kenneth. Galbraith your books about my trump book and then it was this serie. It was just it was a you know ultimate Galbraith took down of the book of the trump everything and my response to it was it slave knit not because I was angry that he was wrong but because I knew he was right. And he just brought home to me and that this was around the same time actually Virginia. And you and I notice well but some of your, some of your listeners won't that the magazine of that era, the hip magazine of that era was spy would say magazine that was launched by Kurt Andersen and Graydon Carter went on to become the editor of Vanity Fair and I became a primary target of spa I became the quintessential sellout journalists inducted started referring to name the answer to be both probably were trump got the idea for nicknames and my nickname was former journalist Tony Schwartz and it was devastating to me for exact same reason as Galbraith's review was devastating I thought that's true. 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Code trump cast don't forget that's Promo code trump cast for five dollars off your first order from door dash. Just, like you are with Michael Cohen and with Joe Walsh and with so many people who've been on Anthony. SCARAMUCCI. So many people who've been on the show, you just had your cold nagging doubts about trump and you're kind of crisis and come to Dharma. Moment we'll call that since I think Jesus was pretty absent. In So early and Also. Interesting is some of the people in journalism including Graydon Carter I'm mean a spare Kurt Anderson who was just on the show from this the after calling trump a short fingered vulgarity and calling you a former journalist and acting as though spy was set apart as if it were you know the National Lampoon or or you know speaking for this left division over and against commercial. Culture. Vanity and so on and Spicer did that. But what's interesting is like so many of us it got and chanted with it subjects and I definitely would argue that Graydon Carter at Vanity Fair former serious editor, Graydon. Carter. At some point he turned into just doing it for the cover image and then you know maybe one of the crises there is when he killed Vicki wards scoop about. Jeffrey. Epstein. And about his his child molestation and ran a story without it, and that seemed to speak to and I don't think this is great and just exemplified a certain period where the powerful were suddenly not people you were like throwing stones out from your snippy little high redoubt with your college friend. Smarty College friends. But they were the people you wanted to come to your parties. Or. You opened a restaurant or you wanted to go to see them in clubs. Are you? You know saw them in the hamptons and that's how vanity fair got that cozy feeling and to everyone's astonishment trump was part of that and later with another generation Ivanka trump was part of that. You know maybe clownish figure in the corner but who could tell the clowns from the not clowns? Journalists are. Seduced. By clouds and buffoons is they are saying outrageous things and what journalists are always looking for somebody to say something they shouldn't have said. So yeah, I think there was an alliance between journalists and trump frank has written about it quite brilliantly in his in New, York eastbound about Roy calm there was a conspiracy and unintended conspiracy between the media and trump that has continued to this. Day there certainly, some really great journalism about trump that has come out over the last several years but the attraction to repeating trump's most outrageous statements and claims has not diminished at all and if I think back to that time and and I, would it really reminds me of is a piece I was working New York Times say one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, two, and it was the. Tenth Anniversary Woodstock's I might be wrong. The actual exact date, but you know early nineteen eighties whatever whatever woodstock wasn't on the tenth anniversary. One of the editors at the Times assigned a bunch of people to a series about the legacy of Woodstock. And I remember that I did one of those pieces and I went back and interviewed people who had been at Woodstock and compared what they felt and thought then with what they were living like in ten years later and they all like Graydon Carter they all sold out they all entered. All embrace the very things that they stood. So firmly against when they were younger. Yeah. You'll one of the things I'm really reckoning with this. In this book is a tell the truth to yourself. It's more you come you really acknowledge and accept all of you are taking the perspective and I say this in the book taking the perspective as I do that the worst things one of the most transformative things for me in my life over the last ten years has been the recognition of the worst things that people said about me and spines awful things, but they weren't the only ones. That I have said to about myself. Are. Not only true their way truer than I could ever dare to feel to see eleven. Saving race however, they're not all true. And the ocean that you are either good or bad that you're right or wrong that your your noble or ignoble is such a binary perspective on life and so dehumanize. Read which I've been able to accept all of who I am and I never do that complete. You're blind spots but the degree to which I've been able to gene that has left me nothing to defense get. The opportunity to address what I otherwise would defense? Yeah. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, Eighty, seven, thousand, nine, hundred, Eighty, eight is just around the time that deal came out there was a small coterie of people who worked alongside trump what he called his company. It was just a few people of wack rather Robert Trump was one and one by one he threw them. Out Robert himself quit quit because the way Donald Tree. So he might as well have been thrown out. This isn't a late younger brother of trump. The recently died Mary Trump describes his mistreatment and trump referred to him as his best friend that is such an example of the narrow perverse distorted and self-deceiving perspective trump has on the world. First of all, he dismissed and. Denigrated and made miserable his brother, Robert Second his brother, Robert Hated Ham, they have no relationship that was particularly after he laughed no relation of a consequence and of course, trump has no relationship consequence with any. So that little group of people trump threw out of his organization. Of course, he would do that continuously over the next thirty years up to and including today. She today built something they called the survivors club and wow, he was needing to talk about the experience of the abuse, the abuse ways that trump treated them and its effect on them. So this idea of mine going in advising members of the trump administration on dealing with the aftermath of their experience with trump actually couldn't start it thirty years ago way back then. You. Know slightly after you went through this, I also worked with Marc Singer as a fact, checking a book of his old. New Yorker writer who I think is now has a piece in the new. Yorker right now, and while I was working on this book with him, he wrote a piece that has been published as an e-book since this because all the writing about trump is newly interests. But anyway sometime in the ninety s, he wrote about trump's divorce from Marla maples and Tina Brown asked him to write about trump and he was an old school talk of the town writer. So writing about a celebrity as it was for you or a celebrity douchebag trump was at stretched for him but he went and he came back with very modest peace and Tina said I remember this. Show what it's like to be around him. Right. Like physically what it's like very, very Tony Schwartz thing what is the mind body effect that trump has on you and mark remembered very un New Yorker moment and so beautiful moment in his piece about trump that he felt. So physically cold around trump he said he was unmolested by the rumbling of a soul I remember that trump was that he went down on a yacht and went down to his little state room and his his bedroom and just curled up in fetal position just. At that moment that the chill hand of life or death was on his heart and it's just an amazing passage because. I have talked to so many and I will say men I don't know what will happen what will become of hope Hicks, or a Kellyanne Conway of she ever has a has a revelation but the men who've left trump or left. Including trump trolls by the way who've been on this show are very shaken, very shaken and the return to fetal position which you chronicle in your book seems like part of this this is my roundabout way of bringing this to your mother. But how did trump and the memory of working with him, bring you the fetal position bring you back to the position of being. The, son of your very distinctive mother. So the feudal position as it applied in my life nineteen, Eighty, eight, nine, hundred, eighty, nine right after the trump of came out and it was both a best seller an object of Derision Os was my just my deep sense of unhappiness about where I let my life, go how I chosen to direct my life. So I think of it not to be unbelievably shared about it. What I think about it as sort of the darkest hour before dawn, you know they the darkest hour is. Before dawn is before you have the breakthrough and I, really do I mean I apologize in my house you know over and over and look mounted. It is enough swore having chosen to do that book, and so the role I played in making trump into someone who could be elected president I. There's no there's no overcoming that it's a kind of a horrific thing to carry into you know the rest that I will carry the rest of my life, but I'm also aware that he awakened. That he gave me an opportunity to Aton Andrew Retirement I, mean these religious images really do. Come up Sir big that he prompted to me to say never again will I do something? that. I don't believe has the potential to add good and add value in the world. Now I didn't stick by that a hundred percent, but it's now thirty two years later and I would said. You know the overwhelming majority of those years. I have indeed devoted to that principle and when I haven't I've felt terrible. Broken unemployment system in Florida crowded elections in Wisconsin during a global pandemic rampant political corruption in Georgia. All of these things didn't have to have a new podcast made two failed connect the dots between these government failures and pulls back the curtain on the conservative policies, the time and again have failed. The people they were supposed to protect may fail takes you state by state through the policies, programs and systems that have led us down. You'll hear from the people and families who've been exploited by these failed policies and the experts who've been studying these issues. Every step of the way as it turns out these failures, they weren't by accident at all, they were by design. And if we're going to find our way out of this crisis, we need to know how we got here. Download. Made to fail today wherever you get your podcasts. I WanNa return to your mother. So what made you vulnerable to trump's aggression to his semi seduction and and I will say I'm getting this here I'm in an em dash. Getting this because an applebaum had an amazing piece in the Atlantic. Show to talk about it about collaboration as and why people collaborate and then why they descent. And it's very scattershot in her account She's she's talking about in the Soviet Union. She's talking that he east Germany that you know sometimes, you would just descent because you just didn't feel like singing the national anthem that day, and then you found yourself sitting during it, and then you find yourself hanging out with people who sat during it and sooner or later you were dissenting and collaborating happen some sort of the same way you know you just fall into it and think well, I need to get through this period. In my life I need the money, I need the security I have a new baby, and then suddenly you're working with the regime. So I think those sorting out why did I do this? Who am I that I did this whoever I that I was vulnerable to it is both worthwhile but also doesn't it kind of allow you to have all the complexity of your own motivations if you're just looking for because I am a larcenous piece of shit as your answer. So tell me what made you vulnerable? That's my question. Well, as I say in the book In terms of trump I trump I grew up wounded in very similar ways. You know we each had a parent was harsh and fiercely critical and demanding my mother and his father and each parent who was who was essentially negligent, my father and his mother Both of US longed I was aware of it. I think more than he was but both of us long for approval from that hardship Neren and at. The same time to extraordinarily lates to build identities that were separate from that powerful figuring are lots, which is a window into my traction to trump is that in a variety of ways I wanted and needed to separate myself from a mother felt overwhelming and suffocating. Let me just say briefly about my mother's he's leash words she was a very complex finger and I hope I draw that way in the book because you. In the world a incredibly. Effective social activist and an honorable person who was an early fighter and for civil rights and prominent one, and then for women beginning even before Betty through Dan Rook. Feminine Escape but she at home at home was a night she was as I said earlier relentlessly critical I never felt good enough in fact Nala getting I feel good enough but I sell bad like. I feel bad. But although that was true too but a bad person and there was no measuring up even though of course, I desperately wanted her love doesn't want the love of one's mother. But. I had an equally strong impulse to separate myself from her in any way I could and one of the most fundamental insights I had writing this book didn't have it. Czar for the first thirty years after writing? The book? I chose to write the book to stick my finger in her. I knew she would hate the idea and that was a ruse separation. She was repelled by trump God bless her repelled by trump You know long before most people even the what's Slow one of the motivations write that book was to stand against her. The second one was that I believed I'd say, somewhere my consciousness fat. Is a real potential to become a very successful book and that it could win me we attention the praise economic security that I did. And so hard. It was believing. The same thing that trump to day continues to believe which is you know if I accumulated enough money if I, if I get enough power if I have enough fame I'll sign feel oh Oh and you G I learned very early and he has still hasn't learned it that it's bullshit that it doesn't work that way and yet you know the more you seek that. Stern. A source of validation the less you get it it's very much like an addict who keeps chasing the. You keep upping the dose wings now up the dose all the way to being present. Yeah. That's right and having he's got so much of the dose in him that some of the white stuff actually flies out of his news, he can't even contain it. But in any his yes all the way to the President United States and this is he's clearly not a euphoric figure who is enjoying the fruits of his Labor as president he looks furious and like there must be something more and he still persecuted. Yes a great. Virginia. Okay, I love a line in your piece where you were I think it's a it's a line of someone else, but it's a line that you make so much of it was a conversation you had with some incarcerated. Conman Hustler who said to you? This is what I think when you were in college at University of Michigan you're the easiest person in the world to hustle this guy said to you can tell us about him. Because you have larceny in your heart I, just did not see that coming tell me about your larceny in your heart and how he how he recognized that new and why it would be you know to to catch a thief you have to be a thief that you would be easy to hustle because you had this kind of these thievery or sympathy for a kind, of Patty. To say about it you know first of all, it's into young the shadow it's that you know you you see and others and trumpets the master of this. You see and others the very things that you most disowned despise in yourself. So yeah them onto another person in that certainly. Was True of me I was a hustler I was very ambitious. I had a very we are sense that if I could do this this and this and the world not let people get in the way of it then I've finally feel okay so I was willing and you know doing the trump book was the final expression of to put my you know the inkling of a soul that Marc singer refers trump not having willing even. unconsciously. To put it aside in the service of these ambitions. So I was absolutely right. Then I would someone who he could hustle because I had. I was looking at him. Skies Name and he was in jail that I was writing about he's got was putty bulls and name, and he was a great man and he was such A. Charming charismatic. Guy That I thought that he was in jail for having robbed someone for the seventeenth time he has was subordinated to by kind of getting a kick out any. By go? To trump. I had a dream about trump that was recurrent after he was elected I haven't had it that God a long time, but it's a very it's all variations on this. The dream is that I reunited with trump in some way I end up eating. Yeah and I ended up going walking up to him and. He says something like you get Tony, right. You like you're you get the hustle for me 'cause he wouldn't have said this but because you're a hustler to. Yeah. So that dreams an example of the shadow alive, the unconscious that that part of me that I continue to disdain. But now acknowledge still leads inside I have to manage it. You know I think the larger point is we all do yeah. We all capable of self deception. We're all capable of doing things that we wouldn't be proud and we all have done things that were not proud of now by the way, trump hasn't done anything he's not proud of because. He isn't capable of conscience. He hasn't capable of seeing that he's done anything wrong yeah and then he was able to blot out his losses sometimes I think that the. Trump is not how deceitful he is or how depraved. But just that he's lived this long they usually someone is is is ground out either like as either as a social exile or they. Eat burgers and and ride and golf carts. So long that they have heart attacks and get some of the very first articles including one of the ones you cited in the book that there references to his his lifestyle means he's not GonNa last long the cardiac arrest will bring him down any minute and somehow something in his cells has allowed him to persist and do so much damage know usually a human one way or another hits bottom before this by getting sick by landing in jail by getting exiled by being a social pariah and none of those things hit trump the fact that he wasn't a social pariah is and I think you and frank rich are absolutely right. In part because in New York anyway he seemed like someone to worth kind of entertaining worth inviting two parties You know the Clintons inviting him and Milania to there to there was that. There did he go to their wet? No no no. No sorry. Yes. The Clintons went to their wedding. That's right and how that happened I think will be wondering about for a long time. All right. Since you are willing to sort of go to these archetypes and you're allow you referred Carl young it's like we're we're in a safe space here. I see in your relationship with your mother and trump in this triangle a relationship that a lot of now trump rights have with trump which is oh and incidentally Michael Cohen also so. A neighbor of Michael Collins was Cohen was telling me that in Long Island, in these immigrant Holocaust families that some of them were gangsters and some of them were very respectable kind of Ivy League doctors and lawyers, and that his his father fell in the doctor category just a mench and that Cohen wanted to rebel against the goodness of his father by being this gangster pimp figure you know by a hustling because I don't have to just you know you're just trying to keep me down with your your sweetness and I'm going to have some fun. I'm GONNA, make some money. You, don't have a Bentley Dad and I see that in your relationship with your very lefty mother who saw trump's vulgarity and what could be more fun as a young man let's say to your mother you know. I don't need a nanny anymore ghetto once I can buy and sell you. Then you won't be so judgmental of me will you or at least the judge won't sting that much and trump bites. Seem to project this kind of monstrous often mother figure a Hillary Clinton or now Kamla Harris kind of judging them or there was the Michelle Obama can't tell us how to eat. You know she can't tell us how to be healthy. We're going to just go for broke on this on this shadow side as you say, trump, who's the opposite of any kind of principled upbringing any kind? Of, even with your hard to please mother she did have a set of ideals and standards that if he wanted to wipe them out all at once going to work for trump was probably a good idea and that flirted with the right to by the way my parents were far left and when I was eighteen I thought there was nothing funnier than registering as a Republican and then ultimately At least professing support for Ronald Reagan. Yeah. So I get I don't usually defend myself against anything someone says to me about what was wrong with doing trump but I do want to separate itself from Michael Cohen answered yes. It's finally guaranteed to I'm a clone fan but anyway. I'm appalled by them and because his. I'm not saying since forgivable the choice I made, but I made it when I was thirty two year old guy and. You Know Donald Trump is not running for president he was barely proved himself as a real estate developer. Yeah. But SCARAMUCCI and Cohen these are people who pursued you know all this awful stuff and an enabled somebody like trump for sixty years fifty years. So there is a difference but you know the greatest gift I got in a way or one of gifts I got from my mother was to be tortured by my I wasn't oblivion Stewart. I get grew larger from doing the trump book. I've got guilt and confusion and you know I I I share in the book in my journal I share notes maternal I threw out thirty years of journals at some point in my life just out a win which I regret and the only one it turned out I checked was the journal of the year I wrote the art of the deal I didn't do it on IRC it's it was just an accident and so I quote from that Journal and if you remember in the book I am tortured all the way through writing that book. I know it's not good. I know it's wrong. I'm trying to rationalize it and this notion of. How we justify this is actually I. Put as another really critical inside in my life that a lot of the spend allotted time justifying rationalizing, and minimizing, and denying and projecting onto others about the things that we find unacceptable and some people are better at it than and others, and you know I was pretty good I could you know the smart guy like to come up with us? You know explanation for something but I've come to realize late in my life that it's an inner lawyer and not inner lawyer is not actually your friend even though he's defending. This inner lawyer the comes along to defend you no matter what they will come up with something. It's like the the most principal free lawyer because yeah I know you murdered people but look they didn't arrest you fair more whatever yeah and Alan Dershowitz figure you get the best defense. The power of that inner lawyer I out systematically sought to diminish so that I'm asking myself the question now very consciously is this the right thing to do or is this the person I want to be don I justified doing eggs? That's a very big difference in it's not an American. Who? An instinct that enough of us, how I just WanNa say that when I knew you, which I think is was what the mid or end of the ninety s when we were working together. You were quite explicit about the just so that I can bear witness journals are not there for the whole time. You were quite explicit about having had this moment as i. say it was it was some years after the art of the deal came out but you know I think of you as always self searching and sometimes self savaging around this moment and also I mean just just the earnest. Meditation on what's the purpose of life and who you are I think has has never been absent from you and the book makes clear coating your journals in the period citing your particular relationship with trump that you felt uneasy in cold all along, and this is the only thing. I will say one more thing I'll say in defense of Michael Cohen we haven't heard from Gary Cohn we haven't heard. From Kirstin Nils Nielsen we haven't heard from a lot of the Joel John Kelly right except maybe in leaks and HR Haldeman I mean you name it. You know and then there was Jim Komi and and and who we have heard from and to the extent that we've heard from these people you know everybody was too late. There's nobody who's real revelation came at the right time unless you know. You've you heard of the discrimination lawsuits against trump in his father in the sixties and you know decided that he would never shake his hand after that or you like a lot of black asked we've had on the show one look at him and saw him saw him as the racist real estate developer he was. But for almost everyone else we came in as adults and we had a moment where. You know I met him at a party wants and think I, spit at him. No. Of course I shook his hand, and then there are people who went much further and enabled all of it, and now they're dealing with the fallout of it. But what I know from talking to doing these exit interviews with people is that just about everyone found it wrenching to spend the time with him and you know and I mean hardly any of them thought this is just a great old time. Not Marla. Maples not Ivana. Not Malania not done junior who's spent a year not talking to him and he allegedly slapped so anyone that we think just got how the was having a great time. I think we're wrong. I also think someone like here's some Nelson who Facilitate the Cajun kits at the border and defended those actions must just be in a moral crisis. Orders of magnitude more then May when you were in after the. Maybe, and maybe share her inner lawyers working overtime to justify rationalize. Explain it I. Suspect that's more likely. I guess what I want to say about Colin is his is not, and if you read the the introduction to his book, I mean he is it's it's like he was holding it together for so long and then he just let it collapse and he's even at ease. Now he's back in prison and he's even at ease when he talks to enable to to smile and his physical body seems more integrated now that he's completely hit bottom. And he said, you know he says I know you don't like me in the book. Of course, he don't like me and nor should you and I'll have to do a steam -able axe to get any kind of esteem back and we'll see if I can and betrayed my family I betrayed every everyone I believe and I'll be went figuring this out forever. You know how this happened and I may be the only person that wants to give give Michael Cowen a break but I want to give him a break just because there's a part of him in all of us that falls for something really share as right. And you and he have probably been the most and it didn't you didn't have to go to prison how about that? That's something you have over. You, a psychic prison may for a few years but not you know you're not just sitting in Otis Ville, whatever it is but you know that's why I think you're a figure for so many people and and the last remaining supporters who can't break away from him. I think I probably will never forgive them at the. You know because now they know the extent of the exterminationist racism, the lies about Corona virus but I. But I have a great pity for their broken nece. Will you know I've had thirty years to do dance in Thirty Years Newtown, and you can decide whether you think are done it or not But what I am at the heart of what I done both I for myself in an ongoing way for myself but also running the company I, now I'd run to the last twenty years called. The energy project is we go into organizations and try to help. You know people across organizations a live more satisfying lives and do some of the work that most of us don't do the introspective work and. If. There's nothing else that I either. You know leave a legacy. Kids my grandkids to anybody read stuff I've done that I would want more would be like this. These are the words like on my tune stone he owned. County. Schwartz is a prolific journalist and author he's he didn't just write the art of the deal. He wrote what really matters work in progress the power of full engagement and book called the excellent at anything. Thanks so much for being here Tony. Ward. That's Today's show. What did you think give us a healthy happy rating on your podcast APP and then come to us on twitter I'm at page eight. The show is at trump cast and then hey, joined slate plus slate dot com slash trump cast plus and sign up do it I'll get your favorite influencers to come at you on instagram and tell you sign up plus members get plates podcasts AD free only thirty five dollars for the first year but do it for your conscience you'll be supporting our work good a slate dot com slash trump cast Our show today was produced by magnificent influenced serve Melissa Kaplan engineered by spectacular other influencers richer Stanislav. Virginia Heffernan I'm not an influence sir, but thanks for listening to trump cast.

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Al talks to Ambassador Peter Galbraith About Trump's Tragic Betrayal of the Kurds, and Al weighs in on the Impeachment Hearings.

The Al Franken Podcast

54:42 min | 1 year ago

Al talks to Ambassador Peter Galbraith About Trump's Tragic Betrayal of the Kurds, and Al weighs in on the Impeachment Hearings.

"Hey everybody boy we got. We got a great one today for a change. uh-huh Peter Galbraith WHO's one of these people who was in the foreign service for decades? You saw some foreign service service. Bought this in these hearings and they're magnificent as you can see and Peter is and Peter has a long Relationship with the Kurds so among the awful terrible things that Donald Trump has done and this might be the the worst in a way is that he sold out. The Kurds who Were our ally and who bled and died for us. Peter has tremendous insight into this and we'll be talking to him but I I just want to talk about the hearings. I JUST GONNA play a couple clips. I was just so so frustrated that Democrats oh craft played at so classy. Adam Schiff Brian classy not one Democrat reacted to the stupid ship. The brahmins were saying they should have had a designated guy a guy and force her. And you'll you'll understand what I mean. So let's play a few of these clips and I'll I'll try to react to them. Okay the first one we're GONNA do is Republican Congressman Chris Stewart of Utah. Who makes a very very Stupid point takes a little while doing it but they had to kill time they had nothing to say so all he would do is say these Insanely obviously stupid things here. We go question before us now is again. Extortion that's the. That's the latest version of the charges against the president. I'm not an attorney extortion. Sounds pretty scary. kind of serious decide to look it up what it means. It means obtaining money or property by threat to victims property. Our loved ones Mr Ambassador. I'm going to read you a couple of quotes from presence Celeski and then ask you a question. I from Ukrainian press release. Donald Trump is convinced that the new Ukrainian government will be able to quickly improve the image of Ukraine a complete investigation of corruption which inhibited the interaction. T crane and the USA. Does that sound like presence. Alinsky is being bribed or extorted added an comment as I testified previously. I'm not a lawyer either and I don't WanNA characterize well okay any legal terms. That's fine I think most people would read that and say that doesn't sound like he's under severe pressure. He makes it very clear in his own words. In Ukraine Presidents Alinsky told reporters during a joint press press conference with Donald Trump that he was not pressured by the. US President again. I was not pressured. He's another time. There was no blackmail. I would ask you. Do you think he felt like he's being extorted by the president based on these comments. I really think that's for the committee and the Congress to well you know what the Stern Basser. It's really for the American people. I agree and the American people aren't stupid and the American people can hear that and they can say I don't think he was under duress. I don't think he was being extorted. I don't think there was an exchange of a bright. He says the the American people aren't stupid. Well you know there are some American people who are stupid it just are. It's a bell curve. We have a bell curve. Then there are the people that are or even on the good side of the bell curve who can fool themselves and say I want him to be innocent it once I tell L. Myself I should believe something I do believe it that's me and I'm smart on Iq tests. I'm character blow the bell curve below the bell curve below the top there vault. Wow Wow wild. Wow but silent goes like I'll at the American people the side. I'm not going to get into that. Why didn't silent go idiot? He you can't say that you moron. I guess he wants. He's still the ambassador. The that's that's amazing. I wonder how long that's GonNa last. It'd be funny for just keep you know because he gets rid of them then he's going to go like you know what I I also had my memory Ed refreshed again. I hit my head on a on a on a wall and a lot of things came back to me. And what would a review of these hearings be without a clip from Jim Jordan. And he he does this along the same lines It's it's basically why didn't Dolinsky bring it up. You had a chance but it seems to me the one that's the most important is probably the one we've talked about bounds. That's the September fifth meeting. This is the meeting where Senators Murphy Senators. Murphy and Johnson bipartisan. Meet with presents Linski. And what's interesting is what both senators in the last two days have given us letters recounting what happened in that meeting. Senator Murphy said I broached the the topic of pressure on Zielinski from Rudy Giuliani and the president's other emissaries to launch investigations that trump's political rival murphy brought it up. He brought. You got two senators. who both strong supporters of money going to Ukraine? These guys are all for it and Senator Murphy Democrat even brings up the issue. Everyone's been talking about. Yeah it seems to me if ever there was going to be a time where the president of Ukraine says guys. You don't know what I'm dealing with. I'm getting pressure from the United States. He wants me to do this. I gotta make it seems if ever there was a time that the president of Ukraine the new guy. Aw who now knows. The aid has been on on hold if ever there was a time to bring it up. That would have been the time. He is basically saying that Alinsky said he wasn't under pressure of course Linski said that he can't say no. I'm being blackmailed by the president of the United States. And having said that I expect to get nothing for the rest of the time I'm president and the people so In Ukraine will throw me out for saying that because so stupid to say it my God well either. Either you are stupid or you're just dishonest. I just went right to stupid. He could just be it. Didn't sound to me like Mike. This is a crafty thing like. Hey Ours Alinsky said There's no pressure on them. MM-HMM SO As I read the situation him saying over and over again. Now there's no pressure on me there there's no I wasn't being Shaken down This wasn't extortion. There was no quid. Pro Quo okay. Let's let's get off that dumb point so that doesn't make a sound like they just made that dumb point. Here's one where the castor the that's the Republican counsel who I think had nothing and so every once in a while was phoning it in. I think the so he is talking. Silent Silent is testifying and he has his long question period with Sunland Oakland and here. Let's listen Senator Johnson State Terry writes. I asked him the president whether there was some kind of arrangement where Ukraine take some action and the whole would be lifted without hesitation. President trump immediately denied such an arrangement existed. Senator Johnson quotes the president as saying no and he he prefaced it with a different word. No Way I would never do that. Who told you that? Senator Johnson says I have accurately characterized. The president's reaction is adamant vehement an angry Senator Johnson's telephone telephone call with the president wasn't a public event. It was capturing a genuine moment with the president and he had at this point in time on on August thirty first. He was adamant vehement an angry that there was no connections to aid. There are no pre-conditions. Yeah I had my meeting with Senator Johnson were again. I made the presumption that I had made to both Mr your Mac and the email I it's sent to Secretary Pompeo and we were sort of ruminating about what was going on and Senator Johnson. I believe said I'M GONNA call President Trump and find out and then he obviously had that phone call. I wasn't involved in that phone. Call Okay but you've no reason to disbelieve. That wasn't wasn't the way it went down right. No reason to disbelieve Senator Johnson. No Johnson Probably wouldn't have any reason to lie to sign one Let me ask you this though Mr Silent With trump have any reason to lie to Johnson. Oh yeah yeah he would God and is Johnson the smartest member of the Senate on no no he is not let me ask you. This has trump ever lied before. Yes does he lie all the time yes does he li- even when he has no reason to lie yes he does so when when he says no he's angry about it could he be like doing a little play acting. Because you know you talk about how a businessman like when he's going to give check to somebody and that guy owes them something he wants to check back you know. Would it be possible that a businessman businessmen who does that kind of thing would also lie at some point you now mischaracterize. What's going on? Not Say the truth. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah my God. Why didn't why didn't schiff allow somebody to be the point man and go come on? Come on really really. The thing is is that Schiff and the Democrats said a whole tone here which I objected to basically which is dignified and they would not point out this stuff and I suppose they said well you know we just want to get the testimony. We just I want to get it down on the record. You had a Lotta time every once in a while someone could have just pointed out how ridiculous and honest and stupid shit was really So so Lansky. When he was asked he said there was no pressure from trump? Yeah yeah he never said I'm Zelinski. That's proof off that's proof that Solanki wasn't pressured by trump is because he didn't tell us he was. Let me ask you this. If you're Sqi and you want help from the United States do you want to piss off the president of the United States breath no and would piss off the President United States saying. Yeah he's shaking me down trump shaking me down Yeah oh I'm so stupid. Jesus Christ we have have appeared galbraith. He was foreign service person for twenty five years. Something like that and in in that service got to know the Kurds very well. The leadership of the curse words what President Trump has done there in Syria and the way he's betrayed our allies. The Kurds birds is just stupid and tragic. It's clearly tragic. It's going to undermine us for years and years and years. You don't do this to an ally. The Kurds died. Eleven thousand Kurds. Words died fighting Isis. Isis was not their fight in Syria. They fought and got the Kurdistan part uh of Syria and then the US said could you. We don't want a lot of boots on the ground so you're there anyway. You're a great fighters Would you go after Isis. And they did and effectively wiped it out in fact didn't term Brag about how he effectively wiped out Isis. Well that was the Kurds and eleven thousand died. That's more than more more. US soldiers died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Combine they did this because they felt a k the U. S. is a good ally to have. I'd say that good allied so we will do this and hand and trump. Did this effort phone call now. We got a good one for a change and With me is Peter Galbraith Ambassador Peter Galbraith. You were ambassador to Croatia. uh-huh yes were you subsequently or in Afghanistan as what I was Assistant Secretary General of the United added nation so the number two in the UN mission. which was a very large Mission Intended to stabilize the country and this was in two thousand nine okay. And how's that going. I remember I saw the reason I want a I asked Peter to join join me. Here is really a talk about the Kurds. Because Peter I I know has had a very close relationship was fair saying I. I think that's fair to say with the Kurds since Nineteen eighty seven seven. You have perspective. I think on what I think is just stay horrible mistake. The trump made to allow Turkey to come in and that may be. You are obviously in agreement with me on that of course but I think it's worse than a mistake. Yes net implies that there was some accident or or some error of judgment. I think this was very intentional. Intentional betrayal of an ally are betrayal. The US is betrayal of our ally. The Kurds towards the Syrian in Syria. Who when you're fighting against an enemy Win this case the Islamic state. You need both Airpower airpower which we provided but airpower alone cannot win a war. You need troops on the ground and the Kurds provided the troops on the ground Over the five viewer campaign against the Islamic State's from twenty fourteen to March of Twenty nineteen of this year. The Kurds suffered eleven thousand dead. Now that that's more more dead than the more than we've lost in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That's right and in Syria. We had five combat casualties. US Did exactly and in a way. the Kurds in Syria or were fighting Isis on our behalf you very significantly actually when the US I intervened it was September September of two thousand fourteen and the city of Kobani which is right on the border with Turkey. The Turkish borders a wall That is the north end at the city. A physical physical wall like the Berlin Wall and Co body was being surrounded by Islamic state fighters and the races Isis and and they were using American Weapons captured captured from the Iraqi army which simply surrendered them to Isis in in Bozell the previous CBS June. It was clear that there's going to be a bloodbath of this city. If if Isis took Kurds. Were were resisting heroically. I I mean just to describe the defense offense at I was in Kobani a year later and I went to the governor's office and they showed me The Kurds were on the roof of the building. Isis was on the first floor. The governor's office was on the second floor and they were fighting from the roof through. The governor's office to the first floor. The the second floor was completely destroyed. And of course the the defenders on the roof had no escape it was either withstand isis or die and they did succeed in in that building but they took a large number of casualties in order to prevent isis from overrunning Kabbani President. The Obama took the decision to intervene. I with US air power and then with airdrops and so in that sense this began with the US. Helping the Kurtz parts but once the Kurds had defeated Isis attack and Kabbani and recovered the Kurdish villages around they had recovered all the territory that was of interest to them but the US said we would like you to continue the fight until you've a radical Islamic state and so the war continued for another nearly four years in which the Kurds were fighting to take territory Arab territory that Isis held. And that's where. They took the bulk of the casualties. We induce them to continue the war and then once they defeated Isis which was said March of two thousand nineteen with the last Isis Village fell a place called Fargo's Basically then in October trump said we're done with you And Turkey you're welcome to come in which is an amazing betrayal and just to get this straight AFRICO. Bonnie and those villages were secured. Their stand part of Syria was secured. They were fighting Isis. So that we didn't in have to send troops in there that that's exactly right and of course there's a moral matter when when you have an ally a partner you don't just just betray them and that it's seems very out of character with what least the United States that I believe that I've served for twenty four years as a as a diplomat or public servant that the contrary to our values but it's also contrary to our national interest Trump says. Oh Isis competed well in fact They're fourteen thousand. Isis fighters still at large in Syria and Iraq the discontent in both countries that created the opportunity for Isis is still there among the Sunni populations. And there's a good chance that the ten thousand Isis fighters that the Kurds it's hold could escape if Turkey's attack continues and some have already escaped at some have already escaped. So what happens if we have to fight isis again. We may not have our Kurdish allies on our side. This is what happens. If you betray the ally means you then have to do it yourself and and actually the occurs have now aligned themselves with Assad. Well they've had to make a deal with. Assad they were faced with an attack from Turkey. which moved into their territory. As attack that trump gave a green light tube and facilitated in those circumstances You look for help and the Russians moved very quickly and effectively diplomatically And they brokered a deal between the Kurds and the Assad regime regime in which Syrian troops returned to this part of the country For the first time whilst it's twenty twelve two thousand thirteen. I on October. Tober fifth of this year Syria was effectively divided along the river with the Western two thirds of the country Basically controlled by the Syrian government. The WHO ended the ally of Russia and Iran and one third was controlled by the Kurds. Roi Ally as a result of what trump did Assad of the ally of Russia and Iran. Now controls has forces in the entire tire country and Russia is along the border in fact Russia is in basis that the US built and they moved in so quickly because the US pulled out so quickly that the Russians are there You know eating the food that the Americans left behind. This is so suspicious in terms of Russia I. I don't know if you're aware of this. But some people think that trump there's some reason season that he's doing the bidding of Putin. Have you heard that yes. I've heard that and I think it's basically basically true. I mean he certainly he is doing the bidding of Putin that that is indisputably true. The question is why is he doing the bidding of of Putin does Putin have something on him and it's hard to escape the suspicion that perhaps that that's the case of course and we don't want you. Yeah there's a lot of conjecture about what that is whether it's Wandered money going through the trump organization et Cetera et CETERA. But there seems to be sort of a Putin trump connection in in in some way because this actually help Assad and Russia and I guess that means Iran right. Of course since we're talking about this there's a phone call Zenit Eh Amazon and trump on October six. They have a phone call and aired Awan tells trump that he's planning into move into northeast Syria. Now he'd been threatening to do this for many months and the US ambassador. James Jeffrey who had been Trump's a special envoy for Syria he had negotiated a deal in which the Kurds the SDF the Syrian Democrat Democrat forces our allies the Kurdish led force but actually a force that also includes Arabs and Christians that they would pull back from the Turkish border And they would remove their heavy weapons Of for a an area up to five kilometers and then the heavy weapons would be maybe twenty kilometers out most places and then and they'll be joint American and Turkish patrols to verify that there were no forces there that might be a threat to Turkey Not that they were a threat to Turkey and also the Kurds were told. They had to destroy their defenses. They built trenches because they were anticipating a Turkish attack so they filled in their trenches office and once all this was done that they have a you know a deal was in place aired one then calls. The Turkish President Calls Trump on the sixth of October and says that he's intending to evade and trump. Just give Cima Green Light He aired wanted. Ask Trump to remove if the American troops American troops were intended to be as a trip wire to keep Turkey out So he removes. The American troops in Turkey invades on the ninth of October and does enormous damage two hundred thousand refugees. Hundreds of people killed incidently in an area that had a lot of Christians y why would trump do. This is izzy enamored with Amazon. Because he's an autocrat. Is that part of it. It's hard to know I mean he. Trump obviously has an affection for autocrats. He's also somebody is just a funny phrase action for autocrats but he somebody who doesn't read his briefing materials and so to some degree say whoever and the the staff set up. This phone call wasn't very clever because he knows that trump's not gonna read is talking points and trump tends to believe the person he's talking to so Amazon is charged that the that the Kurds were terrorists that was bad as Isis and and trump basically agreed with him a but there may also been eh business interest as well trump buildings while trump's son-in-law and aired on son-in-law have become great friends and they've also had the trump's son-in-law's ause been involved in his and trump's business ventures in Turkey and and trump has two towers in Istanbul there to trump towers which are licensed arrangements that pay well nationally. Were paying ten million dollars or so to the trump organization so there was that that connection and I I think it's fair to say that trump is somebody who has consistently put his personal business interests ahead of the national interests. I think you saw that Quite dramatically when he decided added to have the G Seven summit at the Durrell the hotel complex that he don't. Yeah also you know we Assign land gave a million dollars for the inaugural and now is figures very large in this whole Ukraine. The thing I just a million dollars to that inaugurals fund it was a slush fund as thinking about that you know trump must have been thinking after got elected like how am I gonNa make money out of being president. Well why not start on day one. We'll do it in the inaugural committee. I mean my God so we don't know all all the factors about why Why this happened after this phone call but the result is really that the United States betrayed trade the Kurds yes and of course? There's a another lesson here that everybody notices in two thousand fifteen and Assad the Syrian president was endanger of losing the Syrian civil war. The opposition forces were in command of Aleppo the the largest city in Syria they were in the Around Damascus and the Syrian army was falling apart. People were who were conscripted. Were avoiding military service service. People were in the army were deserting and the Russians intervened militarily and they saved. Assad what is the lesson that anybody in the Middle East to seeing saying. Hey if Russia's your ally they stand by you even in your darkest hour if America's your ally they Arca stand by you even at the moment of triumph because Russia stood by Assad when he was about to fall trump abandoned the Kurds after they had secured a victory against the Islamic state And the Kurds saw that lesson. And that's why when the Russians offered to strike a deal. The Kurds had they said yes. And the Russians. Got Them a deal. All that brought Syrian troops back to the Kurdish region but left the The the Kurdish forces also there and along that border stripped where there had been a deal that was going to have American and Turkish troops patrol now. Russian and Turkish troops are patrolling. The beginning of October there was a deal deal under which the Americans and the Turks were going to engage in joint patrols and those patrols had begun at the end of October it was the Russians and the Turks who were doing doing the patrols and exactly the same area nother words. Russia had replaced the United States in this critical area and Assad he would be the the biggest mass murderer. Who's like around today? Would you say that is fair. There there may be some competition but I can't think of it right now. So yes he probably is the the the biggest if not one of the biggest if not the biggest mass murderer. The toll in the Syrian civil wars may be half a million people. It's it's horrific plus maybe half the population of Syria's been internally displaced twelve million people and four million are refugees and the the and the country has been devastated. and Assad now has emerged the victor. Yeah I hope he's happy. Okay so let's Let's go to your career. You've you've been in the foreign service now for how many years. I'm retired now but I was in the. US Government the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the State Eight Department for a total of twenty four years. And I think that in these these latest hearings that Americans are beginning to get a good look at some of our Foreign Service people and are pretty impressed. The Foreign Service our people who serve whoever Whoever the president is whoever the secretary of State is they provide their best advice but then they implement the decisions that are taken provided their lawful? And what you had is concern among the professional foreign surface and actually among the Professional intelligence community that what the president of the United States was doing was not lawful and you saw men and women testifying who were very very professional with with excellent memories with very kept good notes and could describe in a very clear way the illegal behavior that they observed going on and could describe how this illegal behavior damage the interest of the United States. So you Sarb you say with the the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. What was your job there? I handled The committee's main legislation the the Foreign Relations Authorization Act and the Near East and South Asia included in that was Iran and Iraq and during the Iran Iraq conflict. There are things that you personally investigated right. Yes so the Iran Iraq war was like a World War One in terms of casualties among soldiers of their trenches at the frontline USA poison gas by the Iraqis against the Iranians. Three quarters of a million Iranian alien. Young men were killed and perhaps half a million Iraqis. It has occurred to me that you know. Although a lot of Americans had the view well well. We don't like either side that they're always unintended consequences from wars and so I thought that the committee and the US ought to be more concerned. So I made made two trips to Iraq. Iran was inaccessible during the Iran Iraq War I in Nineteen eighty-four and then again in nineteen eighty seven. When I went in Nineteen nineteen eighty seven actually began in Kuwait? I was in the city of Bosra on the heaviest day of shelling by the Iranians and up through to Baghdad saw the various Iraqi leaders. Here's and then for very peculiar reasons. I had gotten permission to go to Kurdistan in the north east of the country and when I headed up with a Heywood rankin career. Foreign Service officer also is driving across from the Arab areas into the Kurdish areas. And we realized that was something very wrong that is say villages and towns that existed on. Our maps didn't exist anymore and we began to see what was happening. We could see A towns where on one side of the road there were just piles of rubble and on the other. There were abandoned buildings with bulldozers we began to realize that what we were witnessing was the systematic destruction of all the villages in Kurdistani a rural area. And then we could see that. The population was being relocated into what Saddam called victory cities. But they were really concentration camps. Now why was this happening. What really there were? Two reasons I Saddam who was an Arab chauvinist. He thought of Iraq has being a leader of the Arab world while the Kurds aren't Arabs. And this element of fascism and racism. Here so he had engaged in pretty brutal title. Repression of the Kurds And when the Iran Iraq war broke out the Kurds rebelled and of course the Iranians had helped them and so the destruction of villages. This was intent was a military measure intended to deny the Kurdish insurgent so A base of support but it was also a racial measure to basically reduce and a population that wasn't Arab and And so when I produced the report About which was basically focused on the Iran Iraq war not on this question. I included a few paragraphs chiefs about it and A Kurdish doctor who lived in the Maryland. Suburbs Scott in touch with me and introduced me to the Kurdish leadership. I I began to get a lot more information about what was going on which also included the deportation of a couple of hundred thousand people to the south. And they're only about five million only occurred so four million at this time in Iraq so that was a pretty large number and these people hadn't been heard from again turned out that they were murdered in my mind was was a policy aimed at depopulation that the killing of large numbers of people and then on August twentieth nineteen eighty-eight. The Iran Iraq war ended five days later. Saddam began a series of chemical weapons in the Hawk government. Now this is not near the Iranian border. It's on the Turkish border later on the Syrian border. So it's on the west coast courtesy him but also Kurdistan and Al People from Hawk began to A- show up in Turkey saying that they had been gassed and I was home in Vermont and I began to say to myself. This is genocide you know you. You you systematically systematically destroy the villages and now you begin to use chemical weapons on a large scale so I went back to Washington the as you know. The Senate is in recess in August but At just after Labor Day I I was backup desk and I went to see the chairman claiborne. Pell Democrat from Rhode Island. And and somebody who had fought in the in the Second World War and who had been a foreign service officer and was very concerned concerned about issues of genocide and I said you know Saturday I think genocide is taking place here and I described what I thought of putting putting the the chemical weapons attack I gather with the destroyed villages and he asked what I thought we should do and I said well I think the one thing we can do is at least to introduce use a bill to impose sanctions on Iraq. Probably can't get it passed. It was the very end of the Senate session but at least we can introduce it and he said we. We've gotTA rounded up quickly. Because the last meeting of the committee is going to be. I think it was going to be later that day so I I wrote a bill in about an hour. Put every sanction. I could think of in the bill And then I gave it a title. The prevention of Genocide Act of one thousand nine hundred eighty eight and senator pell turned to the committee. Eddie was meeting was meeting on other business but he turned to Jesse Helms the ranking Republican extreme right-wing Senator for North Carolina Lionel Him and asked if Senator helps would co-sponsor and helps took a look at the bill and he said yes and then I got a few other senators onboard. Al Gore are of Tennessee. Ted Kennedy and Robert Choose Nassar's and Robert C.. Byrd now the West Virginia who is the majority leader and because I had bird autumn. Because I had helps I was able to work with birds floor staff to get the bill not referred to committee but held at the desk and then hotline. Why do you know what that is all the offices of anybody on the floor and see if anybody objects and we could br brought it up the next day and it passed unanimously? Now has is to be said that nobody had read the bill or understood how the sanctions might affect various American business interests. But the fact that it was co sponsored by Pell and hells And had the title. It did this sanctions against Iraq against Iraq for gassing the Kurds and then I said to Senator Pell you have any effect on the gassing yes Saddam never again used poison gas. It didn't stop the genocide but it did stop the gassing. The Day get past I was on the floor and I said you know Senator I think I ought to go out there and you know. We've we've made this allegation. I'm convinced it's true. But we OUGHTA documented And he agreed and I took along a junior staffer from the European affairs subcommittee. Chris van Holland now the. US Senator from Maryland. Terrific a person as you know and we went along the entire length of the iraq-turkey border we spent five days and there were about sixty five thousand people in in different locations along that border. Now this is the Arab before cellphones Internet and we had maps very detailed maps so we could ask people what villager you're from and they would show us that asked to describe what happened in their village typically the Iraqis Air Aircraft would come over helicopters in some cases they were drop bombs they did. The bombs didn't explode. They were silent then. They described the the different smells. But typically they describe people people just dropping dead and sometimes with with Blue Lips And we could match up stories from the same village by people who ended up miles apart in Turkey with no ability to communicate so you had corroboration. The reality was that of the sixty five thousand people who had fled to Turkey. Every one of them was an eyewitness to this but there was something very curious. We'd really gone. We wanted to find people who were victims who had entries from chemical weapons and couldn't find any of that fact. There was nobody injured in this population and we were really puzzled and then we began to realize that this was a bit like Sherlock. Sherlock Holmes is dog that didn't bark the recent that there were no injuries is that people either were affected by the gas and died or they weren't and therefore they were not injured they They had just saw what happened. And also the absence of any physical injuries also suggested that this was not a military campaign with conventional weapons. If you have bullets you're gonNA have people who. Ah You know who are are injured with bullets are report which we wrote on the plane back and pell released and it was. I think it's been accepted now as absolutely definitive that Iraq had I use chemical weapons and The Reagan administration which had been very pro. Saddam agreed that chemical weapons have been used but then they oppose the legislation. They opposed even cutting off the five hundred million dollars a year that the US was giving Iraq and foreign assistance basically in in export import credits in agricultural credits and they argued that even cutting off aid to Iraq was too extreme response to Iraq's use of chemical weapons against its own people apple and of course as you know fifteen years later in two thousand three the fact that Iraq had used chemical weapons in eight justification for war All this got the attention of of Kurdish leaders and You know I ended up being Becoming very close to them I think you have a perspective on this also very few Americans have. Yeah I've I've made. Fourteen trips into Syria northeast Syria since twenty fourteen and I was just there in September Talking to them they were nervous about what the US was going to do it because they they knew. Trump was not a reliable partner but they didn't have a lot of choices. Uh when you first heard about this phone call with air. John was like a sickening reckoning. Feeling that you had. I mean what I can't imagine having that relationship with Kurdish leaders and and knowing this is what the effect of this was I was shocked but not surprised I sd because nothing that trump does surprises. This seem like like one of the most irresponsible things. He's done it certainly one of the worst things he's done because you know This but this is something that has cost hundreds of lives and that could well cost American lives. Oh it's damage the reputation the United States And it's Damaged a of the American role in the Middle East and it's given Russia huge Step up and even threatens the NATO alliance so The consequences are are are huge. Okay let's take a break for this word From our our sponsor who I believe in a one hundred percent welcome back back To really great one for a change. We have Peter Galbraith. What did the war in Iraq? How are invasion of of Iraq in response to nine eleven when of course Iraq had nothing to do with nine eleven and the cost of cost to our our troops? What did that do to the the region I mean in other words? Was this a a disaster. That is I mean bigger than Vietnam Vietnam. We lost fifty thousand some an over that but the end of that that wasn't I don't think consequential as what we've Seen Cincy rock the award this this have a a destabilization effect in the region. who what would have happened? Had We not done don. That is the most disastrous Decision we've seen in recent history. It could be the most disastrous mistake that the US has ever made in foreign policy. The Islamic State is a direct consequence of the US invasion of Iraq. And the circumstances. That made it possible still exists which is why I think there may well be an Islamic state. Three point you know the first was Al Qaeda Mesopotamia the Sarkawi who was killed. I think in two thousand seven. Now we help Baghdadi who's killed old in two thousand nineteen but the disaffection the circumstances that made it possible for Isis those still exist so if if you compare Vietnam mistake there to the mistake in Iraq have to conclude the Iraq war was far more far reaching consequences it because the threat the terrorist threat that emanates from Iraq back is not going to be confined just to Iraq The case of the North Vietnamese. It was more or less confined to Vietnam or Indochina but if if isis comes back in it very likely will it will be a threat to Europe and perhaps also to the United States also. The cost of the Iraq core has been so great. I again I would argue that eighty percent of Iraqis are Kurds or Shiites. They're better off but for the US and we've spent I know the total cost of the wars maybe three trillion dollars and While it's five thousand ad there may be another twenty thousand servicemen and women who are very severely injured. I would say very severely injured. But I'd say the trauma far far far more reaching than that for sure and and of course. This was something that that you follow it and we're deeply concerned with during your time in the. US Senate so you have a very good sense of that. God Yeah I remember my first bill is to get just to do the study on service. Dogs see the fact was parent service dog with a veteran who had ptsd because there was some really good what evidence at the it was incredibly helpful and I remember on the floor talking to Centers McCain Kyle and Lieberman and Cain was actually skeptical about this and at one point. I said well we're the study he would match two hundred dogs with two hundred vassals. DSP and Kyle said to me. Are there enough guys coming back with. PTSD to justify two hundred bucks sounds totally out of touch. That's amazing in that something. I think most people are looking at our foreign policy. Our we are seeing a deterioration of the foreign service Decisions made by the president that seemingly mainly have our our whims based on whim sometimes and aren't really thought through not surprisingly. What's Your Democrats? Sp talking about during this. Two Thousand Twenty Cycle in terms of trying to let me tell the American people. What the effect of his foreign policy as been or lack of it and what we need to be doing when win in two thousand twenty one? Well I think the the first thing that Democrats ought to be talking about is the way in which a trump has damaged the American brand in the world. You damage the American brand when you have an ally and betray that ally and of course it means that the people don't particularly want to be your ally because they don't think they can trust you. You damage the American brand. When you have an agreement like the Iran nuclear agreement which Iran is honoring? And then you break it for no no valid reason whatsoever and you Damage the American brand. When you have the you're the only country in the world who is not part of the pair or Paris climate agreement there were two countries that weren't part part of it and it was Syria and Nicaragua and make Arago was a signatory because it felt the agreement didn't go far enough and Syria was just Syria was a mess. So at that point they have both signed up so we are literally the only country in the world is not part of the Paris accord right and then we have trump with North Korea. Well North Korea still has its nuclear weapons developing more missiles. And what is the president of the United States. Say He's in Love in love with Kim Jong UN on the Young man who's the red itary dictator of North Korea. It's it's quite extraordinary so we we have a president who has damaged American and and weakened United States with his slogan was make America great again. But he's actually made America weaker again and of course he would like to break up the European Union he's been a big supporter of Brexit And he's a weakened NATO I he says he had looked possibly wants to break that up. Well who's agendas this ladder may Putin's Thank you Peter. Thanks for all the work. You've done Long of our our Foreign Service folks what are you doing now. I mean you're you're trying to help individuals right escape the situations they're in in Syria. Who are been children who have been sort of in the custody of Isis? That's right yes Their their children who are in a three camps their children who were brought to Syria by women who joined Isis assist or were born in Syria to these foreign women who had had joined Isis and These camp the camps are guarded by the Kurds but on the inside life. They're run by ISIS. Because the Kurds don't have the resources to keep these radical women from raising the next generation of terrorists If you think think about what's in the interest of the child it's not in the interest of these children to grow up to be Suicide bombers murderers rapists rapist and so one of the issues. How'd he get the kids out of the camps and into a environment like a foster home environment where they would be Removed from these influences in and they brought up a more normal way. If these kids remain in the camps. Well I one possibilities that. The Syrian government will take take them over and everybody in the camps will simply disappear but If they if they actually grow up in the camps they'll never get out of them because no- countries going to take them back and they can't integrate locally so they would almost have a life sentence for having been per haven't been children born to isis mothers our parents and so you're trying to get a number of them trying to get them out. Ideally back to their own countries where they could go back to you know relatives or into the childcare system of their own country but if not that at least out of the camps and into a childcare system that the Syrian Kurds might run. So you're leaving tomorrow for the region I am. Yes okay. We'll leave it at the region guy because I know there are security issues. Thank you you for your service to our nation. Well Allen thank you for the service you've done in the in the Senate and I think also on Foreign Policy Elsie issues because we discuss them when you were in the Senate but I think also for the extraordinary work cut that you did on behalf of those who have served our country Ben and women in uniform more who've come back and have had difficulties in. I don't know thank you. Thank you thank you well. I hope you enjoyed Listening that beautiful music is by Leo. Cocky the Great Leo Cocky I WANNA thank Peter Burn for producing. We'll talk again next week.

President Trump United States president Iraq Syria Iran Turkey Isis Isis Peter Galbraith Assad US Senate Ukraine Peter Senator Johnson Putin Kurdistan Saddam President Ours Alinsky
490: Sexual Harassment in the Fitness Industry w/ Molly Galbraith

The FitCast

57:30 min | 2 years ago

490: Sexual Harassment in the Fitness Industry w/ Molly Galbraith

"Coming up in this episode of the fast. Molly Galbraith is back on the show to talk about the sexual harassment course for fitness professionals that she put together with their team or at girls gone strong. Before we get into the episode. I want to mention that I decided after we recorded to edit out a name that we brought up on the show which kinda spurred a lot of the discussion in our industry and also the need, for course like this. Not that we didn't already probably know that we needed something like this, but it definitely helped be a catalyst for that. Why think the allegations are are still reprehensible? They are allegations, and you know, just from a legal standpoint and to be honest for discussion of what we're going to talk about on this show, I don't think it necessarily requires the mentioning of that person's name. So if you hear a blank spot or some dead air, I second it's probably took out the name, but if you're in the fitness industry and he needs some context, you know a lot of. People have talked about this, so now apologised for that, not trying to be mysterious. But again, I think the discussion that we have is really important and I, it stands on its own without necessarily bringing that up, although we do still talk about kind of what brought this all on. So I hope you understand. But without further ado, let's get into very important discussion with Molly. Hello, welcome back to the fick asked. My name is Kevin Larrabee and we get a special episode for you today. It has been going through my Skype blogs. It's been about a year since we've had her back on the show, but from girls gone strong and now presenting all over the place and now are really, really important five day sexual harassment course that she just put together again with girls gone strong. We got Mallaig Albe back in the show my how are you. Kevin, I'm doing. Alright. Thank you so much revenue back. It's hard to believe. It's been a year. That's how it is is just, you know, the our lives are moving so fast lightning fast these days, and it's just great because you know, we can have these opportunities to jump here on Skype, and then you know, we're always talking through Email and stuff, but. Obviously, this is something that as a recording just came out and I thought, you know, obviously be really important to talk about this together, share it with the audience and. I guess we should preface that we're going to have a conversation about sexual harassment in in the fitness industry. And I'm going to even say between fitness professionals, which I think is a really important thing that we need to to hit on, but also between fitness professionals and their clients, and also maybe even information for fitness professionals to help create better cultures at their Jim for member to member interactions as well. I think those are probably the three big aspects that will we'll talk about yet. Absolutely. Yeah. There's so much. There's so many things to cover here, like you said. So yeah, I definitely wanna talk about it. We can talk about a little bit just kinda globally in in how it shows up in the fitness industry because it's happening inside and outside of the fitness industry in, like you said, it's happening from, you know, fellow like trainer to trainer, it's happening client to trainer. It's happening. We client to client or member to member, so it's happening at fitness conferences. The caffeine online. I mean, it's literally everywhere everywhere you look. So yes, I love I love to to dive in and I'm happy to share kind of what sparked the Courson and what's included in it and how it can be helpful and all that. I think you know, again. Maybe even to at another preface to this, like our intentions are not necessarily to get political with any of this stuff, but I think it's hard to not have politics pull into this a little bit with the metoo movement that's been, you know, really been a revolution over these last two or three years now, but I think it's also. You know, again, I don't wanna make it a political or make people feel uneasy, but I think it might actually be really good, especially this is going to go on both sides. You know, sexual harassment can go both ways, but I think you know if you're listening to this conversation for the next like our it makes you feel uncomfortable. That's probably a good thing. And. Thing and it's and it's a signal to get introspective about I if making you uncomfortable and yet like an so to be clear anyone of any gender can be harassed or assaulted in any one of any gender can be a harasser or assaulter. On average about ninety. One percent of assaults are male to female. When males are assaulted. It is also most often by males, females and then Herat in terms of harassment. A recent in PR report showed that eighty one percent of women in the US report experiencing harassment and globally. That number is as high as like, ninety seven percent in other countries in so. That can be like being leered at being groped. I mean, there's there's always kind of different levels, right? And there's different levels of we talk about inappropriate behavior, and this is a minute we cover in the course and try to do a lot of educating on. We talk about the spectrum of inappropriate behavior ranges from mildly inappropriate to explicitly violent. And the thing is, is that you cannot have the explicit violence and and really horrifying soft without the normalization in the saying, like, this other stuff is okay. So we kinda talk about it like a pyramid, right? So at the bottom of the pyramid is normal or saying that certain behaviors and stuff will be okay in, that's like, oh, boys will be boys like this is just the way it is. You know, just kind of like sexist attitudes towards women and normalizing inappropriate comments or things like that. And then the next level is dehumanisation or degradate. Nations. So that saying, like, you know, I don't value you as a as a humans that I can treat you how I want an axiom cat calls and. You know, and just like really kind of overt the saying, really nasty things overtly or sending unsolicited pictures of naked body parts and things like that. So just like really saying like year, I don't value you as a human being. So I can tweet you as less than in the next level is removal of autonomy that saying, like, you're not in charge of your body, I get to do what I want to your body. So that would be groping or any type of unwanted touching that with the nonconsensual pictures or videos that you take people, and then the top level is explicit violence. So that's, you know, rape and molestation and things like that. So, but that seven, the top can't really exist without the stuff at the bottom. So even if people are like, oh, this isn't a big deal. I'm not. I don't know anyone who's been assaulted or I don't. I've never done this to anybody. I would never do that type of stuff. There's a good chance that you know all of us I have engaged in behave in, you know, behavior that is on that spectrum not record. Sizing that I was contributing to, you know, the bigger bigger issue. So think it's important, like you said, if people are feeling uncomfortable recognized, that's totally normal. It's okay. What we do in the in the free five day courses, we really try to create a safe space for people to learn and say, hey, like, you know, you don't. You might not know a lot of this stuff. 'cause we're conditioned cited conditions s to think this stuff is normal in. So you know, you probably don't even remember the first time in I can turn this question on new Kevin. Do you even remember the first time you heard a guy cat call girl or say something sexual about her body like it probably didn't even stand out to you? I guess it was probably back in like high school or something. Yeah, it happens so young and, but that's thing. It's like it's not even an event in your mind because it just like it just kind of like one day it started happening. Right? And it's just become so normalized, you know, it's in a music in its in movies in its in video games. And in the first five seasons, for example, of game of thrones you'll watch twenty nine women get right to. I don't watch that show. But when you mentioned that in the chorus I was just kinda like, I, I mean, I mean, obviously, I, I must imagine I watched show, but I, I must imagine that the the point is that these are terrible people that are doing this. You're supposed to feel an easy while it's going on, but still it is, you know, that's a lot. And there's no way that it cannot desensitize you to act right. Like when you see that fifty times over the series of five years in, that's just in one show it's happening or it's implied in like a number of other, you know, shows movies and stuff like that. And so, yeah, so it's it's really just everywhere and it's showing up, like you said in the fitness space. So a lot of women since we've been talking about this across construct, a lot of women have reached out in shared their stories of harassment. Our assaults in the fitness space with me in it's just been, it's been devastating to hear their experiences, but also it's not anything new. I've heard this stuff my whole life. So I think you know, because because we have an hour. You know, we might have to compartmentalize this a little bit. So again, at the top mentioning, you know, the metoo movement, there is obviously been some really important things in politics, especially over the last month as her recording where you know these discussions have have gone on, bring up things like, you know, some just unbelievable when you go out and you put a microphone in front of people, they'll say, some terrible things. No, but you know, people believing not believing calling people liars and how that is been entered twined in our politics here in the United States has been really. The moralizing. But I think it is for the sake of this discussion. I think since a lot of people that are listening to this, they're not tuning into CNN. They're going to tune into a fitness podcasts. And there was something that happened recently in our kind of bubble of the fitness industry that kind of spurred what you put together with this this course, which I should mention. You mentioned five day course guys. We're not talking about spending hours and hours and hours watching stuff, enlisting stuff and going through a workshop. You know, this is stuff that you can be watching one piece every single morning over the course of a week. And I, I think I'm surprised, you know, I think if you own a gym, if you're a Finnish professional that has employees, this should be like number one with a bullet at the top of your education list. Right? Because I mean, just even for the sake as a gym owner, the last thing that you want is for one of your coaches or trainers to be accused, let alone have actually done anything that Molly mentioned previously. So. And it's, it's just such an easy thing to do like literally Molly did all work. It's already there. Right? You know, my mom is actually she's a labor employment attorney and and one of the women who worked on the course with us worked in human resources for ten years specializing in harassment prevention and she does on harassment prevention workshops in she within the course. We actually link to to some settlements that companies have had to pay for a sexual harassment in the workplace in it is just astounding. I mean, the, I think a lot of gym owners don't realize that they're liable obviously by gum depending on the jury, literally was in my insurance policy. When I put like open my gym, like there's literally sexual harassment coverage in my transits mandatory. That's how prevalent is yet. And yeah, and so here's the thing so so the sexual harassment or salt happening on your premises is a really big deal, but then not knowing how to handle it appropriately adds another level. Of a kind of liability or responsibility. And then even further, if you don't know how to handle it and then you retaliate against the person who is a who accusing the other individual of harassment or salt than that. Actually courts are actually handing down larger fines and in making businesses pay a lot more money. So it's like you've got the initial harassment, right. And then you've got fumbling through not knowing how to handle it. And then if you retaliate, which you might not even realize that your retaliating against this person, if you don't know what you're doing than the fines for that are even bigger than the fines for the initial harassment. So this stuff is like I always, I mean, it's half joking half, unfortunately, not joking. When I give talks and presentations on this, I give all of the reasons why this stuff is important for women in their health and their safety in their overall wellness minimum like, and if you don't care about women, let's talk about your bottom line, right? Like because at the end of the day, what. What protecting your members in your clients is good for business. And so you know, even if me telling you about all the ill effects on women in their health and their lives in their income, and all of this kind of stuff isn't enough to move you to do something about it. It's a good business move to make sure that you have a safe environment in your gym, not only from the perspective of protecting yourself from risk, protecting your reputation, but also building deeper relationships with your clients. In encouraging, you know, sixty seven to seventy five percent of people who hire a coach or trainer are women, and we know that a large percentage of those women, I'm experienced harassment or assault. So your gym is probably filled right this moment with sexual harassment and assault survivors. So if you can create a space in which they feel really safe, they feel really welcome. It's very clear to them that you're on their side that you have their back that you know if anything ever happens. That's not cool. Makes them uncomfortable. They can let you know like that's just that's good for business. So yeah. So even if the caring deeply about women thing does isn't enough to move you remember that it's good for your bottom line is low. Yeah. If you have to be that cold about it. Yeah. Just like, you know, think about money, I guess. Okay. So let's let's go to kind of the catalyst for a lot of this discussion, at least again in the in the fitness industry because a lot of this, you know, a lot of the metoo movement has been in entertainment and hasn't been with politicians in those were sport everywhere. Things that would, you know, show up on the news and stuff and would kind of blow up. But then in this actually did kind of blow up outside the fitness industry because you know, ended up seeing a story on deadspin, which is the supports website was accused. I buy one woman and then by multiple women of sexual harassment. And this was a believe in August on Facebook. And, and again, I don't. I don't even know how much we need to. I mean, I'm Mike my, I don't know. Do you think we should talk about kind of the reaction that that he had? And this is again, this is something I didn't even know. I'm so happy that you're here to talk about this too because one of the first thoughts that I had was I, this is absolutely discussing absolutely terrible. Then I felt. Responsibility in a way because this is someone that I've had on the show multiple times. No, this Elida like other folks in the industry felt man. This is someone who I had presented a seminar. This is someone who's books. I told people to buy who I sent as clients to them. And then like, am I responsible if they had any sort of negative interactions. But I, I mean, I don't know how much we should go. You know how much the fifty tells manner details. I mean, they obviously matter, but for the sake of the discussion today, I mean, I feel like we could talk about that for a long time as well, but I wanna leave this in your hands. Yeah, absolutely. So like you said, he was accused at first at publicly on Facebook by ended fitness event by new names. His end. And so he was removed from a panel at a fitness conference, and then everything kind of blew out from there. So she kinda came public with this and several other women at the event actually told the event promoter. Yeah, he was inappropriate with me as well. And then than it came out that he was inappropriate with a woman at another event in may, and then women started coming out in in droves. I guess you could say, final count that I know of at least seven women came forward, accusing him of things. As you know, quote, unquote inappropriate as whispering things in their ears to as terrifying as having their wrists held by him and having to push him out of their hotel room. Legally for the sake like these are the allegations against Mike. This is not going through a court process or anything like that, but. Again, it was one of those things that I think eventually led to some emit. It's on his part saying, yeah, I did not conduct myself. Well, alcohol was involved on, and so there was some admission that something may have happened, but again, just for the sake of the pike casts. And again, you know, the court process in the process of law needs to do its thing. You know, I think we just need to say, you know, this is all alleged. Yes, absolutely up. These are all reports from from women. So yeah, so that all kind of happened. And then the fitness industry kind of exploded imploded. I don't even know which one people were just coming out saying like, oh my gosh. I'm so like I had no idea than friends than for this long and I've, you know, I've never witnessed this behavior into all the stuff kind of happened. And then as you would expect, people came forward and were, you know, just being really cruel to the women who were. Our kinda sharing their experiences. And I mean, it was just it just absolutely turned my stomach as a sexual assault survivor myself. It was really retraumatize ING to read through the comments in just read how you know. Like you said, you stick in my front in front of people's faces in all day. Just really incredible things you're going say. You're to say, really the reason why I wanted to, again, this is why I believe the current state of politics plays in here. It's because there right now. Again, especially with the cavenaugh stuff that we went through guide was that last week was at eight months ago. Something like that. Where we're basically, you know, you know, one side was basically, you know, saying that, you know, we shouldn't believe this woman, and I think that has kind of been driven some folks to just say, like, I don't believe him a good dude. I've talked to him in the past. He's a great dude. I hung out with him. He never did anything when I was with them. So I think. You know, a lot of folks, especially like if it's, you know, if it was an athlete or if it was someone who you're really big fan of. The last thing you wanna hear is that they could have done something like this. So I think again know it's not a good reaction, but I think that's why naturally some focuses initial reaction in. It's not to defend what they said, but they don't wanna believe it. They want to just pretend like didn't didn't happen, and they want to defend the person that they. That they like. And that's why a lot is happening. It's hard to see your heroes fall. You know what I mean? Like it's incredibly hard. And like you said, like from a political perspective, right? There's kind of decide that saying we should believe women the other side. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, innocent until proven guilty and you know it's possible for women to lie and stuff, but you know, they don't remember correctly. Like maybe these women libber you know, someone else if this fitness event or something like that, like I just unbelievable. Yeah, totally. And so to be clear, you know, false reports do exist their way more rare than than most people think. So the research shows that somewhere between two in ten percent of reports are false, but that there are a lot of caveats there. So number one, the most reliable numbers there have been different studies raised their different findings in different studies, the most reliable reports show somewhere around five to six percent are false. But the problem is false doesn't mean that. The woman lied depending on the police precinct and the education of the officers who are taking the reports or the lack of education. The officers who are taking reports in when I say lack of education. I mean in this particular sphere of they can declare a report false for any number of reasons they can clear it false if the person reporting it has any change in details that they share, which if you know anything about trauma, they're certainly certain things that are burned into your brain and other things that you try to bury really deeply so that you don't remember them. So if if the person changes their story in any shaper form, if they feel like there's not enough evidence, right? Which, again, a lot of times this is just a, he said, she said situation so they can declare false simply because there's not enough evidence. So it doesn't mean that it didn't happen to the woman came back and said that she lied. It means that they just decided that there wasn't enough evidence to pursue. I believe if the woman is up withdrawing the claim, there's just any number of reasons if they can't find enough people to. Corroborate her story if they just decide that they think it's false. Like it's pretty wild a how much leeway they have to in again, this is various from precinct into city to city. I'm sure there are some police departments who do a really, you know, bang-up job of like of making sure that you know, they're, they're only saying things are false. If the woman actually comes forward and says head until the truth about this with, there's also intimidation coercion in like all of these things that can take place. So. So they say that false reports are at about five to six percent, but we don't actually know what that means does not define that report as the woman lied about it. So it's incredibly false reporting happens happens, but it's incredibly rare and you know what's a lot more rare is for it to happen to women in them not to come forward. So. Yeah, so it is. It is possible absolutely in, like you said, I think you know there are things that are it's important in terms of legal action for someone to at it. You know, legal actions be taken against them for them to be judged by jury of their peers. When it comes to, you know, win. That's not happening. If charges aren't rod against the person than we individuals have to use our value system to decide if we want to continue supporting that person or not, which I think is really important. And I would like to say that I, I'm a sexual assault survivor and I believe wholeheartedly in redemption of people, I think if we don't believe that humans can redeem themselves than were pretty lost in a lot of other ways. But I think that that redemption really has to be earned and it has to yet and it takes a long time. So I think a person has to recognize what they did wrong, you know, feel deeply remorseful for it, seek to understand take as many steps as poss-. Able to actually create change not only in themselves and their kind of small circle, but do what they can decree it. Large scale change in order for that, you know, redemption to be to be, you know, kind of legit. That's that's my personal perspective on it. I think like I mean, maybe let's take a step back for a second because I think one of the crucial things as someone that is attended numerous and you yourself as well attended numerous fitness events. A lot of those fitness events, they have socials. Now they have opportunities for go after the education for the day in socialize, you get to meet the people that are big fans of the speakers. The, you know, the celebrities of the event and, and this is something that I think you know, again, Balotta the listeners of the show are fitness professionals are the folks that go to these seminars. I would say a majority of the listeners are. And this is why I think this is a really important thing to focus on because this is kind of where these things took place allegedly, where we're at fitness events and. This got me questioning a lot of the stuff that I've seen had finished events over the last couple of years, and we we need. We needed an event like this. It's a terrible thing to have come up, but I hope my hope is this brings to things along with it. One more women come forward with things that have happened to them in. It's always their choice to do so or not at events in the past one to maybe weed out some of the speakers that probably shouldn't be at these events anymore for the sake of the attendees. And number two, you know, even if that doesn't happen, these folks are now like Ben called out, not maybe not directly, but they're on walk straight. They're all watch like this isn't nineteen eighty two. Not that insect -ceptable then or should have been acceptable then. But you know what it again in maybe feel like there's some times where I saw stuff in colleagues and people that even I knew I said, you know is not funny man. That important thing to remember right, harassment and assault. It's not about desire. It's not about sex. It's about power and it's about abusive power, and that's why you know. So often it is happening with people who are more powerful, more influential older. Greater networks have more support from well-known people in the industry, and it's happening to. Women who are maybe nudity industry. Younger don't have as many connections or less likely to me, believe don't have as many resources. And so, yeah, I mean, that's that's what it's about. It's about someone in power preying on. And again, sometimes they don't literally don't even know that they're doing it. They're not doing it consciously. It's just what they've always done in. It's what they were taught is okay. And so I've been in fitness for fifteen years and I have been sexualize objectified and Dina found my pictures on websites talking about, you know how you know where I rank in terms of people, whether people want to have sex with me, and I was introduced on a, I was introduced as a speaker at an event in two thousand twelve and the person introducing the actually said, thank God. There are still women who look like Molly Galbraith, who looked like real women. And if you. Never prevent people who don't know what I look like. I'm I'm really curvy. So I've got large brass got lurch hips. It got a big, but I'm tall. I'm bigger in, I guess, curvier, whatever than you know, like like most, you know, really lean fitness models or whatever. So you had a the ad that's that is literally how they introduced me to give my talk on stage in front of a group of about one hundred fifty people speaker probably thought, oh, I'm gonna be really positive because. Right, right. And again, not necessarily thinking how that would necessarily be received by you or you know, go to these seminars more and more. They're becoming fifty fifty male, female, and that is why, like I think Molly United talked to actually United talked a lot about this over the last couple of years. Why? You know a lot of the attendees or fifty fifty male, female, and then you look at the speakers and it's still like ninety five, five like male female. At a lot of these events, it's getting better slowly, but diversity and the, you know, lineup still need Sony and it's tricky too, because if an I n let me preface this, they saying there are so many women qualified to speak at fitness events. It's unbelievable. El Divino has a blog post where I think she has. Yeah, hundred seventeen women listed that said, just kind of on on. So there are plenty of women to choose from, but on a. Global scale on a bigger scale. If women aren't getting the opportunity to speak, then when they do get opportunity to speak, they're not gonna be as seasoned, and so so they might be put on the last day of the event in not as many people come to their talk or they're not a season and they don't have quite as much experience. You know, they might like, I mean, I know my first gushing started started presenting may two thousand eleven to seven years ago on with first couple of times speaking, I was an absolute disaster or you know, like I was nervous and I didn't know how to present my information well, and I didn't know how to engage the audience and all this kind of stuff. Right. But. I kept getting. I've heard similar stories from guys like Mike Robertson, an air Cressey in these super, super great, super smart presenters, but they're seasoned now because they've been doing it for ten fifteen years. So the tricky part is women are getting out fraternity to speak in. They don't have as much experience in there. It's it is possible that they don't, you know, command to the crowd quite as well as someone who's been speaking for fifteen or twenty years. So it's kind of this vicious cycle, right? But again, there are so that that's kind of a global issue. But in in fitness, right now, there are hundreds of women who are incredibly qualified to speak fitness industry events, and for whatever reason they're not getting while I can say for whatever reason. I know the reason. You know, they're not getting the opportunity to do it in. So like you said, an every event that I speak at so many women approach me like, I am so happy you're here. I came just for you. I wish there were more women. You know here speaking and I really wanna speak, right? But they feel like it's maybe not even possible for them because they don't, you know, they see. So few people who look like them speaking at the event. So yeah, that is. That is certainly an issue as well. Like you said the the when the majority of your speakers are men who've been in the industry for a long time and you know behavior that was once tolerated. You know, they don't even know that it's that it's inappropriate or that they're taking taking advantage of. I, I have seen situations like that as well. Where young attendees starstruck with, you know somebody in there, not even recognizing that in that moment they have, you know, they're positional power night over. Her has. Dino is part of is part of that is that that power dynamic, and so that super super important for all of us to educate ourselves. On behavior that's inappropriate, how the kind of lower tier inappropriate behavior just creates the atmosphere for more inappropriate behavior. Consistently. At these conferences, there will be pictures of of women doing exercises in. They'll be like in really tiny shorts, like Romanian deadly shooting with their butt facing the camera, you know. And it's like actually, Tony, Tony, general co wrote about this so little bit. This is something that happened at in event that he put together maybe six months. Again, time doesn't have any meeting in this current staff players. No, it's not linear were basically just in some sort of time bubble. But I, he again, he, I think at an event was called out from one of the female attendees saying, you know, like every single picture you have like the girls butts like right in the shot and like they're all doing like, you know, barbell hitless or I forget what they're de lifting and stuff. Tony's always talking about de lifts and squats like the main lists and you know what he took that feedback. Totally right. Hopefully, right. I didn't even notice and like I thought it was just like thinking. All right. Well, what we're gonna do is we're going to be focusing on the hamstrings from the gluts because those are the two main muscle movers of the dead lift. So we're glad to obviously that's where the camera is going to be, but also Tony like also maybe get some like dudes and some of those videos to have a little bit of balance there as well and think about how it could be perceived Mike terms of being sexualizing stuff. And then we've got, you know, the even bigger global issue. Right? 'cause it's happening individually, and then we have to step back and say, like, win, Tony, does a search for images of win in lifting NATs. I think that's what happened. Yeah, I think that's what it was. Yeah, because there are so few images of, we don't because women's bodies are consistently being sexualize objectified. And so I, I wanna be super clear in saying like, I am very pro autonomy, so I want women to able to do whatever they want with their body. So they wanna take pictures and videos of themselves, deadly shooting in, you know, super small. Shorts with their, but towards the camera on one hundred percent on board, if that helps them feel really empowered. The problem is, is that we see four to ten thousand images a day with as much time as we spend on social media, and if you're in fitness, the primary no lot of those images are probably going to be finished related. We only process about eight percent of the image consciously. So we see like, oh, that's a deadlocked, right? But ninety two percent. It is being processed unconsciously. So it is shaping in conditioning the way that we think about women in their bodies when we see those. And so you know, that's again contributing to the sexualization in objectification of women in general. So there's nothing wrong with the image it sells. It's problematic when that's all we see, and it's also can be problematic. If there again is a male fitness professional in their whole presentation is filled with those images. Right again, if that's all they, if they do Google search until they can find, that's part of the bigger problem is well, and I know someone. Told me recently that at a fitness conference of presenter head a video of a woman walking across like a a locker room in thong, maybe and then like insinuated that she was cracking a walnut with her gluts or something. I mean, it was just like ridiculous in dumb. Again, large portion of the of the audience is women, and and that doesn't mean that you should have that if the large portion of the audience aren't women. But it's just, you know, like a, it's time to wake up and realize that the stuff that was once tolerated or thought to be funny or not. A big deal is it's no longer no longer. Cool. So. I'm sorry. Story, a really well known a powerlifter. Due to bring us up you. Oh, I don't know if we're talking about the same grim strength, coach thing, Nope. Okay. That's I wanna talk about that next to, okay. So a woman that I had lunch with a couple of months ago told me that she was at a really well known powerlifters seminar, and that he was in the majority of the audience were late teen early twenty guys. And he was consistently telling him telling them in the seminar that if they wanted to get the blank, let you fill in the euphemism for cat. If they went in to kid that then they had to do x. y. z. so not only was he spending time at the seminar talking to young impressionable guys, basically how they could get thumb from women, right? This isn't even like, hey, let's have consensual mutually pleasurable enjoyable sex that like two consenting adults. Right. This is. Like, how do you get this from women and then objectify them by reducing them down to a sexualize body. Part in this is happening at a super well-known powerlifters conference. And you know, again, like this is what impressionable, young teen and twenty year old guys are hearing from their idol. So anyway, it's happening everywhere, but you know, that's why we created this course as we can change things. Even a good point to bring up in this as like again, there is whenever there is progress in society, there will be some pushback from folks that you are stuck in their ways in, you know, they, they call it again. I won't use the word instead. I'll use the whistle vacation, you know, people saying, like, who cares? They're not offended anyone like they're just they're just talking like, I think you you bring up. It was one of the one of the current president was defended a lot for using quote, locker room, talk. You know, that's how guys talk, you know, there's guys being guts in order to do, which is which doesn't even like the like, no, that's not. That's not how guys dock in that doesn't even leave room for guys to be really good humans, right? Like this is not only excusing behavior that is violent and degrading towards women. But I think it's also really degrading towards men to say like all guys talk like that. Like that's not actually true, not all guys talk like that. And I think it's unfair to, again condition and socialize young boys and young men to think that like that's what guys do because it's not. It's just not true. It's a again, I feel like the the might even a rabbit hole in itself that we could go down for for a while, but you know, and I will preface our purpose, but I will you step back and say that you know there are folks that are are hearing this feedback. This seminar organizers are beginning to hear this feedback and they're making surprise. Press slowly, but surely. But I think that's even I am guilty of this stuff where I just have like some people that I already know. And I like talking to them because I'm comfortable talking with them, and I think I was have good discussions, so I'm not always someone that's like, let me go find like ten new people that I can have on the show. A lot of times I'm just like, I really liked talk with Molly are really late taco with j. b. or whoever it is like in like, those are the people who I just like I would like to have discussion with them, but that's also. You know, it's it's a weird one of those things as a chicken or the egg. Like a lot of times I ended up wanting to talk to someone like Molly because I saw her present or I saw, you know, you know, some education self that she put together or someone said you, you know, you got to really talk to Molly Galbraith. You gotta talk to, and that's how a lot of this stuff happens is a lot through word of mouth. But again, I should take some of that responsibility as well to do a better job a getting some more diverse in more voices on this show going forward, and I will work on that does it's, it's it's, it's it's as I criticize other folks. It is also tough on something like this because then I get to meet new people and kind of introvert well, and yeah, and Phil important to get introspective. You know, I'm consistently checking myself like there are things that just like that lie out of my mouth because they're things that I've heard and said for years, and I say them and I'm just like, ooh. Like the other day, it was a few weeks ago and I was talking about like a tank top or whatever. And I was said something something something was wearing a wife beater, and I was like, oh my God, and I just like literally stopped in my tracks and just like my heartfelt on my stomach, and I'm like, holy cow for the first twenty something years of my life. That's what I called that type of like thin white ribbed tank top. Right? Because that is what people wear. I live in Kentucky call that, and I'm like, holy smokes. That is literally normalizing in desensitizing people to intimate partner violence, which is something that thirty percent of women experience in their life. And it's like, you know, these things again, fly out of our mouths and I'm just like, I can't even believe that. I just said that. So I want to be super clear. I am not talking about this from a pedestal, looking down upon people who are behaving inappropriately, or you know, saying things that aren't okay or whatever, like we are all constant. Learning and developing, and I am not above reproach. So I'm consistently open to to feedback for my community or anyone who's listening to this. I'm just doing the best I can. I'm kind of like everybody else. I'm fumbling through learning about a lot of these topics in sharing it, sharing it with our community in there some ways in which I'm leading people in other ways in which I'm being led. And so the people who worked on the course we had, I think I can't. I told you this on on the show or off, but we had a multiple women who contributed to the course. So we had a woman who has ten years of experience in HR in harassment prevention in investigating harassment claims, and she does anti harassment workshops. We have a a woman who's a sexuality educator and has been for a number of years. She's written a ton of great articles for us on things like consent in returning to your sexuality after sexual assault. And then we had another woman who who is. Sexual harassment and assault survivor herself, who's been a coach in industry for over a decade. We had lots of information. We were able to pull from previous articles from Keach dis in women's studies in psychology on the topic. And so we just had all of these super brilliant people contribute to on to pull this information together and make sure that it's really sound and then it's really accessible. I think you know, it's really important to use plain language to use lots of stories in examples to help people understand, you know about topics that that might feel new to them or might feel sensitive to them. And so, yeah, so the courses not only filled with giving you a broader understanding in context for all these conversations that we're having. But we provide lots of stories in examples of how this is showing up in the fitness space from trainer to trainer from, you know, client to train her attorney declined from Jim member to Jim member and then give lots of actionable steps because you. After the Steph kinda blue of couple of months ago, all these guys were reaching out like I wanna help and I don't know what to do. And so we created this free vibe day course to give people, you know, instead of actionable tools so that they know what to do when they feel like they don't know what to do. Right. So what do you do if you witness it happening? What do you do if you a woman confides any that she's been harassed or assaulted? What do you do? If if you experienced harassment or assault yourself, how do you create a safe environment for clients at your gym? We've got anti harassment downloadable anti harassment policies in templates. We've gotten anti harassment policy checklists. If you already have a policy in place, you can go through the checklist to make sure that it meets on these important criteria. We've got anti harassment signs. You can print out and put up in your gym. See your clients know where you stand. We've got a case studies on how to handle really difficult topics. We've got a how to own up. If someone calls you out. For making a mistake, which I think is incredibly important to know how to do that. Well. So yeah, all kinds of this is this is not your run of the mill, super boring harassment training when you've been through the whole thing right? And so you can consume it via video. You can consume it via. We've got written transcripts. We've got audio files that Kevin actually left in turn into MP threes for us to make them really small files while retaining their. At over there in Kentucky. Harridan. It's not that fast here. So yeah. So we've got all of that stuff than all these downloadable resources in some. It's totally free in, like Kevin said, you don't have to spend eight hours sitting in a workshop with some, you know, boring person standing in front of a whiteboard, if them. I mean, that's what people think of when they. Where it's like, you know, some folks coming in role playing and all this stuff. And I think that's in this this cost. This is like a thousand dollars, right? Wait, hold on what's assured of trying to get. Joe gets. I was like, this again, you're getting, you're getting, you know, things that you can use after row plays out and then making them by better. No, but I'm saying it's like you're literally even like giving people the handouts that you could like put up on the wall in the gym to just like, literally did all the work and it's free. Yes, it is. No, it should be like, honestly, you look at like the other kind of like market value of the courses that people are putting gathered should probably around five hundred or paying pain folks to come into their workspaces to go into their gyms and put these courses together. And it's also again, it's something you can do at your own pace, which I think is valuable in the crazy demands of the world. I know we're, we're running out of time, but I wanna talk with you about how social media fits into this too, because in one of the videos, you talked about a strategy conditioning coach who is actually at. A. A rather big school, you know, posting things on Instagram of how I think it was one of him talking about his training program. Oh, it raped him. Yeah, and also posting about, and this is again. How I don't know how dumb of a person you have to be, how how much I, I will say, garbage person you have to be when you have, you know what he was posting about, like they're the athletes bodies or something like that or like there were going out or something. So so one he was? Yeah. He was joking about the word rate by saying that workout really raped me in. He was saying in front of the mixed audience of a young male and female athletes, and then he was talking openly about, I guess he was looking at the instant grams of some of the girls who he was training. And was openly saying that they shouldn't be such horse on their Instagram's. Insane. Yeah. I mean hearing that. And so at the time, this guy was a coach at a private gym, just like a studio gym or whatever. And but now is a strength coach at as university assistant strength coach, working with with male and female sports teams at university. So someone who is willing to say, things like that, workout raped me, and then say that the girls that he's training shouldn't be whores on their Instagram. Is now working with again, impressionable, a young male and female athletes in that setting, there's absolutely no telling what you know what he's willing to say to or about or in front of his athletes yet when he's willing to talk like that. So it's it's really pervasive. It's everywhere. It's incredibly important to know what to do or say in these instances if he witnessed this type of behavior. So if you witness someone actively being harassed, if he witnessed someone just saying something that's inappropriate, it's so important because it's easy to be stunned in the moment. Right? Like I've been stunned before when I've heard people savings on Mike. Whoa. Did they say when I think they said? And so kind of I have a couple of Goto where I'm just like, whoa, that's not okay. When somebody said it means just like it's really quick. It's really easy is just a couple of words. It flies out of my mouth and no matter what the thing that they're doing is. It's usually applicable end. It leaves space for there to be for it to have been a misunderstanding and me not to like berate them, and then it turns out like I misheard them or you know what I mean? So it's just like, I'm not. I'm not screaming at them. I'm not Cussing them out, not accusing them. I'm just like, whoa, that's not. Okay. And if they're like, what am like you just said, XYZ they're like, no, I didn't. I said this, it's like, oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said that that would not have been cool, you know, in so it in, you know if they're like, what do you mean? What you know like? Why like what do you mean that's not okay. And it's like, well, this is why that's not okay or so. I usually say like, whoa, that's not okay. Or what do you mean by that? You know if somebody says something sexist or racist, or you know, they try to make a joke, whatever. I'm like, I don't get what you mean by that. And then they literally have to say out loud or explain to you like it's funny because you know, x, y, and z. It's funny because I'm joking about sleeping with that woman. Whatever you know and it's like, that's not. That's not actually funny. That's not that's not cool. So those are kind of my go-to. But again, we share a lot more of like exactly what to do in the free course so that you can go through it and feel comfortable responding. In those scenarios. In start start creating creating the change in letting people know what behaviors not will end also learning at what behavior you might not even know, isn't cool that pool. So we share that as well. Guessing these posers still not up. He's been taken down, which that the strength coach put up in these comments that he made I would have to for they were actually comments to a accident, will a comments that a woman in our community who was a fellow strength coach that he was making in front of her end in front of their animal. Yeah. So it was about Instagram, but it was in front of the athletes and in front of her. Yeah, who reported it to us. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Like I think. Again, I feel like my we could literally spend the next three hours. You know, talking about this is just so much to talk about, and I apologize. I'm sure there's going to be some western stuff like what you guys didn't even talk about this aspect of it or that aspect. And I apologize. It's just, you know, I have to get to a soccer game that you're on these kids because there are about to the playoffs. That's amazing. So good you for being against ranked coach, keeping them healthy enough to do that. That's why. Again, the free five day course is so important. We cover so much different stuff in there. I'm sure it'll be linked in the show notes, but you can find it at go. So geo go, dot girls come strong dot com forward slash sexual dash harassment. If for any reason you can't find it. You can Email us at info at girls gone strong dot com and we can send it to you. And if you go through the course anything that there is anything that any feedback you wanna give us or anything that we left out or whatever you can always Email us as well. Where super open to, you know to your thoughts and ideas about it. We wanna make it as helpful as possible to health and fitness professionals. And again, it's it's beneficial to health and fitness professionals. It's also been, it's been official to anybody. Again, you've taken the course. You know, this is happening in and out of the gym. It is geared towards health and fitness professionals, but I think the information will be really interested are interesting to anyone who just wants to be a better human, and you know, help create change in the world in protect women. Yeah, and learn more about about a topic. They might not be well-versed in. I don't think there's anything better that you could do your time. If you're listening to this, just go to the website. Like more mentioned, I'll have it in the show notes. I'll even have it in the description. If you're like, literally on your phone and you click on your podcast app, you look at the description for this episode link will be right there. She can literally click on that and we'll open up in your phone and you can watch it on there or if your fancy airdrop it to your computer, if you've McEnroe. But there's so many ways that you find it and you should be following girls going strong on Facebook on Instagram on Twitter, always all over the place. You can make sure you're following no great organizations and also sharing that information out as well. I think that is an important factor. We forget sometimes that's how we get better is not just us digesting information, but also saying like, hey, check this out. I actually had a guy comment on Instagram. Any tagged like four or five of his male co workers in France, and he's like, hey, let's go through and do this course together. We'll each other hold each other accountable. If we hear anything that we, if we hear witnessing do or say that might make any of our members uncomfortable in when I think Tim for that, he's Aquino we actually had an incident, unfortunately, a couple months ago where some people in our Jim did something that made some members uncomfortable. So we brought them in us them if they would, you know, help us understand what happened and it's et cetera. So unfortunately for them, you know, it was spurred by the need because something bad did happen in their Jim. But you know, that's these taking account you taking ownership of it being accountable, and you know, trying to figure out how to do better in hold himself in his other friends accountable. So, yes, sharing this courses, super important. It's always more fun to go through this kind of stuff with other people and helps spread the word. You know, there's four hundred thousand English-speaking trainers in the world. So our goal is to get this in front of his many of them as possible. For for doing this? I think you know, again, I think at the end of this, if you're still listening, you know, some people might be like almost feeling agitated a little bit. I think that's a, that's a good thing. You're not comfortable and you know whether it's you're looking back and be like, man, I wish I did something differently when I saw that situation going on. I should've stepped in, but I didn't feel comfortable doing it. It wasn't my place, whatever it might be. You know, this is our opportunity to get a right the next time we don't have. We don't have time machines yet, so let's make sure that we just try to do a little bit better. Next time we see it. So again, you know, that's next time I met a seminar and again, I hopefully we'll all be on a little bit better notice. But if you see something you're separate and say like, hey, are you okay? Is he bugging me or something like that? Or are you how you doing? Do you need, you know, walk back to the hotel? Like is this guy doing anything weird or anything like that? So these guys take care of each other folks. Yeah, and one last thing, this is not about vilifying men. This is about believing this is about bringing awareness to really pervasive topic and believing that there are tons of great people out there who can do better if they have the tools to do so. So that's what it's about on. It's about ads about giving people the actionable tools in a clear path forward of how to help end and how to be one of the good guys and gals who who's creating change in putting a stop to it. So instead of ignoring it and saying, this doesn't have under this doesn't happen as much as we think it does or whatever we say, hey, like this is this is certainly happening in on some level. I'm gonna learn about it and I'm gonna figure out how I can be part of the solution in Artem problem. So thank you all so much for listening about this super critical topic. Like I said earlier, if you have any questions, you can Email if info at come strong dot com and Kevin, thank you so much for having me on here to chat about it. Incredibly important subject. And now again, I'm just happy that this is going to be a little bit of a catalyst to help our industry get better in an incredibly important ways. So thank you. Molly and thank you to everyone that hung out with us for an hour. We'll Ghinwa of link for all that stuff at the cast dot network. And we'll see you guys in a little bit. Thanks for joining sticker.

harassment assault Molly Kevin Larrabee Molly Galbraith United States Mike Facebook Instagram Kentucky Mallaig Albe caffeine Skype Herat fick attorney Jim CNN soccer
#187 - Should We Stop Worrying About National Deficits?

Intelligence Squared U.S. Debates

51:15 min | 6 months ago

#187 - Should We Stop Worrying About National Deficits?

"That's debatable presented by bloomberg intelligence. Squared is brought to you by. Ibm where they say. Let's put smart to work. Mark twain famously told us that it's often easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled and the american people are often fooled into getting confused about government deficits. The word itself. Sounds like a problem. This will boy. I wish i believe in the tooth fairy. I wish i believe that. Elvis still lived and i wish you could scoff at government debt. I've got a historical question. Was alexander hamilton fool. Hey everybody welcome to that's debatable. A television series brought to you by bloomberg and by intelligence squared. I'm your host and your debate referee. John donvan and today we have four economic powerhouses who will be debating for and against this resolution. Stop worrying about national deficits. I want to say thank you to our sponsor. Ibm for helping to make all of this possible. So let's meet our debaters. I i want to welcome the team. Arguing in favor of the resolution. Stop worrying about national deficits. He is an economist and a professor of public affairs at the university of texas. Austin james galbraith is the author of many books including inequality what everyone needs to know. He's debated with us before. So i want to say to you. James welcome back to intelligence squared and james. His partner is an economist and leading authority on. Modern monetary theory stephanie. Kelton is the author of the deficit. Myth and i can see by that title that that's going to be central to the debate where we're going so. Thank you so much stephanie. For joining us at intelligence squared rank and now meet the team arguing against the resolution. Stop worrying about the national deficit. They're saying worry a former white house economic director of economic policy and the author of the price of prosperity. Todd buchholz todd. welcome to intelligence squared. Could to be with you. Thank you and your partner is otmar issing. A former chief economist and member of the central board of the european central bank joining us from germany. Where it's approaching midnight. Thank you for staying up and thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure okay. Now we go into round one round one is composed of opening statements. From each debater in. Turn those statements will be four minutes. Each there uninterrupted our resolution. One final time is stopped worrying about national deficits and i up to speak for the resolution. Here's james galbraith. Thank you very much and let me first. Express my thanks to the house. For the exquisite timing of this debate the injunction stop worrying about budget deficits forces question. When exactly did the worries start We've just come through four years when no one in power in america's expressed the slightest concern about national deficits and an amazing year when we ran a budget deficit of three point three trillion dollars without the slightest bad effect on interest rates the economy or public morals. So why now a senate the answer is clear. America just held an election. A democrat won it. Only there's nothing else has changed our task. Professor accountants and mine is to show that this is not sufficient reason to disregard forty years of solid evidence and sound economic theory. I will address. The evidence will explain. The theory are distinguished adversary. Mr bill colts who in march called for a the government to pass out five hundred dollars and debit cards to every american so that they could go spend an have some fun. Today is worried about deficits he wrote last month. That the to the rest of us and the us. And many of its g seven cohort. Look not just ill but veering towards broke. I checked the dictionary broke. A synonym for south yet are distinguished. Adversary dr is shing wrote just this month to ensure advocates of m. t. are technically correct when they point out that no any country able to pay its debts in its own currency cannot become insolvent. Because there's no limit to the sums of money that it can create. I think dr is seeing for this. Very clear statement of technical economics and dr kelton and i will take as decided on a three to one vote that point that the united states or similar countries cannot go broke or and solve it for what other reasons might one worry the typically warriors name three interest rates inflation and the exchange rate to large national deficits drive up interest rates in countries that pay debts in their own currency. Not japan has a national debt twice. Gdp and interest rate on government that that's negative in france. It's almost one hundred percent. The interest rate is again negative and the united states of the twenty year constant maturity treasury rate was about one point four percent just now and the ten year rate is below point nine percent which is an even better deal than pope. Julius got from michelangelo for the sistine chapel and those are market rates efficient markets theory tells us that they reflect the expectation of inflation. Over ten or twenty years to come that expectation could be wrong but it is not open to economists who purport to believe in efficient markets to question it. What about the dollar short. The dollar might decline some in the years ahead. So america goods americans by will be more expensive. American jobs will be more plentiful than there and they will sell better on world markets. That's an internal matter. Put the dollar collapse. The thought is absurd. America's worries are unemployment climate change covid nineteen inequality precarity. The polarization of our society militarism the threat of wars america goals are full employment balanced growth and reasonable price. Stability those are written into law as kane said anything we can actually do. We can afford. If you haven't started worrying about deficits don't start if you have started. Stop vote for sound economics and for your mental health you james galbraith. Our next debater will be speaking against the resolution. Please welcome at mar. Smart pleasure to be invited to this interesting debate. The whole world has been hit by the pandemic countries are running high deficits and spending huge amounts of money to limit severity of the downturn however beyond special case the idea that deficits don't matter at all has become popular with a number of politicians and even on the fringes of economics profession to a large extent the public tip figures of industrialized countries. Today are coming closer close to celebrities reached after virtual tool however diesel frightening. Figures are only the tip of the iceberg look. the greater part of the public tip is no traceable in germany. For example the official figure for the ratio of public debt to gross domestic product is now seventy two percent. If you actually apply for future so suspending from pensions to healthca saddam is is to stick over four hundred percent. Cba supplied to many other countries appear some porn into one of these societies. Arrives with a heavy load to bear on topa forward the future tendencies arising from climate change or aging populations high public tips implies limits to future expenditures and vence interest rates rise. See house of cards will collapse. The country's biggest current fiscal problems of those that use to suffer from inflation. High interest rates at repeated devaluations as long as they hit the old currency. I'm sorry i. I have to jump in because your time is up but thank you very much. Okay next up with an opening statement in support of the motion to stop worrying about national deficits here. Is stephanie kelton stephanie. Thank you very much. Thank you to to dr. Galbraith fend to our distinguished debate partners. this is going to be. I think a lot of fun. So i would like to start with a quote from the great american humorous mark twain mark twain famously quipped that it ain't what should don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure. That just ain't so. And i think we're going to hear a lot over the course of the next hour. That just ain't so okay. And i want to try to take this opportunity to fix some of the broken thinking. That's what dr galbraith. And i are here to do is to fix some of the broken ways in which we think about and dialogue about public finances about the government deficit and the national debt. And what i want to present you with. I r sum unassailable facts. Let's start with what we know for. Sure i the federal government is nothing like a household and as soon as we begin to start to think of the federal government's finances as akin to our own that the government faces or ought to face the same kind of constraints that you and i face or that a private business faces or even that state and local governments face. We're going to go down the wrong track. The federal government is nothing like a household. It shouldn't run. Its budget the way that you and i run our budgets if it tries to do so it almost always ends badly for the economy. It will drive. The economy into recession. Governments aren't like households because governments issue the currency and households or what we wanna think of as users of the currency. So i want you to think a very hard line that separates with the federal government can do with its budget. It's spending power and what the rest of us can do. We play by a different set of rules. That's the first important point. The second important truth is that every deficit is good for someone. The deficit is just the difference between two numbers. The first number is how many dollars the government is spending into the economy each year and the other number is how many dollars the government is subtracting backout mostly by taxing us so a deficit means the government is adding more dollars to our economy than it subtracts away which means that someone is getting a surplus so in the same way that the number six becomes a nine when you flip it around. The government's deficit becomes a financial surplus. When you turn it around and look at it from the vantage point of our economy as a whole so their deficits are our financial surpluses. If you like. The government deficit works to blow financial resources dollars. In government bonds those are financial assets that show up on our balance sheets. they become part of our wealth. They're part of our savings. When the government eliminates deficits balances its budget or moves it into surplus than its operating budget like a vacuum. It's hoovering those dollars away from the rest of us and that reduces our wealth so think about whether you want the government to be running deficits which produce your surpluses or whether you'd prefer them to hoover away some of the financial assets that you hold. We're in the middle of an opening statement from stephanie. Kelton who is arguing in favor of the resolution. Stop worrying about national deficits more debate coming up from intelligence squared. Us this is intelligence squared us. I'm donvan and here. Is stephanie kelton. Making her final point in favor of the resolution stop worrying about national deficits. The third truth is that deficits can be too big and inflation can be evidence of a deficit. That's gotten too big but deficits can also be too small and evidence of a deficit that is too small is employment. That's what we have today. Let's worry about the unemployment and the depressed economy not the government deficit. Thank you very much stephanie. Kelton and our final opening statement comes from todd buchholz. Todd the floor is yours. Yes well boy. I wish i believed in the tooth fairy. I wish i believe that. Elvis still lived and i wish you could scoff at government debt. I've got a historical question. Was alexander hamilton. A fool alexander. Hamilton's words are spoken by school. Children around the world who've enjoyed the broadway musical and in that musical they learned that alexander hamilton had the federal government absorb the debt of the state. And pay it off. I don't think alexander. Hamilton is a fool. I do think we are confronting a situation. Where the next. Ten years social security and medicare in the us those trust funds will go dry and it will be automatic spending cuts if nothing is done. Stephanie has has presented with to us. Some of the old canard's we owe it to ourselves. That's nonsense one third of us. Debt is in the hands of foreigners including one trillion dollars to the chinese. The second canard is that it's an asset for us well that's a fallacy. Those people who issue who buy bonds are not the exact same people who buy the bonds. It's not an even match. The motto or the mascot of modern monetary theory should not be dollar bill. It should be earplugs because the modern monetary theories refused to listen to two thousand years of history. Let's go back. Ancient greece city states went bankrupt lending to the temple of delos french revolution. Louis the sixteenth loses his head. Why because he spent too much money. That's old history. let's go to modern times chile. Early one thousand nine hundred seventies inflation brazil and argentina in the two thousands bolivia in the nineteen eighties. Okay they play. flation depreciation. Wages fell forty percent. Our colleagues say they're worried about everyday people. How about britain. The nineteen seventies. How could you forget that in the nineteen seventies britain. Beg the imf for the biggest bailout to date and james callaghan. The labor prime minister of britain explained to the mt theorists of the day. The predecessors daca kelton adopted gave golbright. We can not in all candor. Do what you ask nap. Perhaps our colleagues here are like albert. Einstein a lonely swiss court working by himself. Somehow coming up with a magical way that breaks shatters ideas about space and time. You may decide today whether they are the einsteins of our day. But in the meantime i'd suggest vote to be concerned about the deficit and the debt vote because our lives depend on it and hold onto your wallet. Thank you Todd vocals and that concludes the first round of this debate. And that is the round of our opening statements. So what is your response to their their basic argument that it might look okay now but eventually reality will catch up with reality. Well if we're going to compare the united states on site while we're just like argentina just like venezuela or zimbabwe essentially. You're on very weak and shaky ground those countries borrow in the currency that they do not control mostly in. Us dollars their exports have to pay for those interest payments. Those are mostly in commodity prices. That are on world markets that they don't control very well This is not the united states. this is not europe. this is not japan and this is not the people's republic of china for that matter so when we're talking about the countries that are the prominent members of the world economic community. The ones that set the tone they our countries that we call financial what they do. Is they issue That's in their own currency and as a doctor is thinks had very clearly that means they cannot go broke. They cannot run out of their other means to pay their debts accounting matter. That's the point of fact. It is a point which was underlined. Just a day or so ago by madam lagarde. The current president of the european central bank. The united states does not need to renegotiate. Its debt constitution. Actually states that the united states that shall not be questioning will be paid as a matter of not of our most basic law going back to eighteen sixty five So there we are the. Us simply is not in a position that can be compared to argentina venezuela or zimbabwe Todd you wanted to jump in so go for yes. So jamie of course tries to put in his ear plugs and swat away the examples but he ignored britain in the one thousand. Nine hundred seventy s isn't that a g. seven country sweden is that not an advanced country. He ignores canada and they fell into terrible problems. Where sweden's debt to gdp ratio doubled during the nineteen nineties. And they had to do something about it. So this canard this fiction that if you're a big country you're insulated. That's simply not true. There are currency issuing countries that have had difficulties swift debt. That's just simply not the case candidate has not had a debt crisis. Sweden did not have a debt crisis. You have countries that wanna manage their exchange rates simply nacho move interest rates. Let's talk about britain when the callahan and the hate and the haley government went to the imf in what that was about. That was a political stunt. Let's call it. what it was. The government was not broke. The government not running out of money. The british government never needs to go to anyone to get the british pound because the british pound can only come from the british government as the issuer of currency was a political stunt where the government had drunk the kool aid and they wanted to be able to say to the british people. We're out of money. We can't afford social programs social contract so they went to the imf. They negotiated alone got a standing facility for several billion dollars in guess what they never tapped the facility. They never spend one pence from that. Does that tell you something tells me. The government didn't need the money in the first place. Why on earth would you take out a loan if you were desperate and going broke in the never tap the facility. It was a political stunt to certain convent of the labor party in blackpool. Kenan mentioned that the idea that we can get out of unemployment by spending more money and inflation. This time has gone. We have experienced that these small to be stake stick. Flation was the consequence. And i should be cautious to comment on the us. But may i remind you into. Us spent so much money running high deficits to finance avi at number four it has exported inflation to the rest of the world. Of course it facing in. Us didn't happen but it was exported through the world and as a consequence said brentwood system of fixed exchange rates broke down. It will see our problem. Stephanie had had called britain going to the imf a political stunt very odd that the labor party which was pro union dominated by the union's would've pulled off a stunt in the name of what she says right wing monitors them. That's ridiculous i'd like to ask her about the carter. Bonds in the nineteen seventies. Jimmy carter because the us was incapable of successfully selling us. Treasuries jimmy carter designated foreign bonds. That is he issued bonds in deutsche mark and swiss francs because bondholders in the us had lost half of the value of their bonds during the inflation of the nineteen seventies. All right thank you. I want to go bring you our audience into the conversation and to kick this off we're going to bring in actually are global audience. And by that. I mean over the last few weeks. We've been asking people around the world to cement the way they would argue on this debate. What are what their point is which side they're on and why there on that side and now having gathered all of those arguments together We are using artificial intelligence to help us understand what matters to this global audience. What arguments and ideas. They thought were most important. So we have turned to ibm watson which uses artificial intelligence actually to look at and scale public opinion as it's been submitted to us and then it uses its ability to process natural language to map out the themes and the key points across more than thousand submissions that we received. So let's take a look at how that process works. I people around the world submit their arguments online. Then the i assesses the quality of the arguments filtering out and he irrelevance of missions and sorting the remaining arguments into four and against next technology identifies the recurring key. Points ranking them based on their quality and their frequency finally the ai creates a coherent narrative of the strongest and most prevalent points for both sides of debate. Okay and now we get to hear what the results were. This is a selection of key points and arguments that our global audience again more than a thousand people around the world thought. Were most important on this topic. Let's listening hello. The following analysis used ai models to identify the critical key points made by each side on the motion. We should stop worrying about national deficits fifty percent thought. We should stop worrying about national deficits with seventeen percent of those arguing. That national deficits have no direct negative impact on the economy. One argument said a high deficit does not mean a high risk of default. Financial institutions are strong and productivity is increasing. The the danger of an economic fallout has minimal. Another key point for the motion was that to an extent. The national debt allows financial growth. One argument said spending money stimulates the economy. Which will then bring the government. Money and lower the deficit people also think spending into a higher deficit is acceptable during a health crisis. The remaining fifty percent were against the motion with seventeen percent of submissions arguing. The rising can lead to inflation and cripple. the economy. one argument said national deficits fundamentally weaken the nation's economy and must be arbitrated to achieve a balanced resolution. Another key point against the motion was that national debt burdens future generations. One argument said we cannot pretend that we have money that we don't have it's disrespectful to younger generations. To run up the national deficit people also said that high public debt is dangerous while the world is so unstable with politics wars prevalent racism and extremism also. Having high national deficits around the world will cause more instability. Please visit the website to see more results. Good luck to the human debaters. All right so. We heard some of the arguments that the global audiences making a. We've touched on already and And we see that some of the dividing lines are quite similar to the confidence to the dividing lines in this conversation but there was one one point made that we haven't brought to and that's the social impact of deficits People were mentioning things global instability and things like war and extremism to the team. that's arguing against the resolution. I'll come to you at mar on this one. Our deficit's a threat to global security. We're not just not talking about the markets but actually to to global security overall chamber has made such a convincing argument for independence bank controlling the money supply and on the international side. I think we need stability international relations. They are so many gaullist coming from geopolitics and to this. This is not a big round against which governments should responsible spent money. I think the trust for example in the door dominant currency of the road. The based on this future stability of the currency so i think a country like the us is the least one to risk the stability of its currency and i would suppose that if the us government and including effect would explain that they would apply mt policies. The toll booths loose. It's sleeting positionally the votes because people would be afraid that in the future the investment. Did you stores would not be safe enough stephanie. Would you like to respond to that. I do thank you. So i keep hearing this bizarre discussion about the central bank being four store cajoled or asked to do something to aid and assist government spending that somehow what we're talking about is the capacity of the government to run deficits being somehow dependent upon the central banks acquiescence. In all of this that it has to give up some independence. Nobody has said any such thing. What i described with respect to the cares act is the way the government's always spend the government decides what it wants to spend and the fed is the government's bank. The fed carries out all payments that are authorized by congress on behalf of treasury always. It doesn't say no to the government it can't. It has to clear the payments what the fed has independence to do is to set the price at which congress will access those funds. Now think back to ronald reagan. Ronald reagan ran massive deficits. He didn't have a friendly federal reserve chairman holding interest rates near zero to accommodate all of this he had paul volcker and interest rates. Were double digits. They were almost sixteen percent. When reagan was president they never got below seven percent so very high interest rate environment. That did not stop ronald reagan from running massive deficits with two huge tax cuts and huge buildup in the military that almost tripled the national debt. So you don't have to have the fed behaving in a certain way to allow congress to do what congress can do republicans do it all the time. They increase the deficit for tax cuts in wars. And the rest of the time. The deficit increases is because the economy goes into recession. Those are the big drivers will look with all due respect. I think stephanie is running away from her own writings. But putting that aside the us dollar today is the world's reserve currency but you don't choose to be the reserve currency of the world. The world chooses you depending on your behavior. Let's bring james galbraith chains. You're worried about the standard of living of our children and grandchildren's thing to worry about on the way they improve. It is to improve the quality of life now to build back a better america a better world to deal with climate change to provide the parents with with jobs that provide them with adequate incomes to provide the children with the capacity three education to provide the whole population with healthcare to deal with the pandemic simply saving money on the government. Accounts is not going to improve the quality of life for anybody in fact it is going to make it harder and more difficult to improve the quality of life so yes we should be worried about. Our children should be worried about what we're what we're doing for them. Not what we're not doing for them by not getting involved in tackling the problems that we actually have. I wouldn't wanna bring in since you brought up a good deal of history Throughout the conversation we have an audience member also bringing in some history. I'll take his question to From earl- stolen who asks is there a case to be made that the government can and should use greenbacks and print currency as lincoln did fund the civil war and use that currency to pay for new goods and services without creating debt and to create a strong and more stable economy. In a sense. I think at the core of that question is it embraces the argument that your opponents are making. But they're going all the way back to lincoln for it. May maybe as the american in the on the team. Todd you would like to take. That will not well. I think it does bring us back to the idea that the government can print money and of course Back in the eighteen sixties. You had It was pre independent central bank. It was pre federal reserve board And you did have different independent private banks that were able to issue their own currency so it was a very difficult or very different situation Look i as is my first words on this program. Were in a pandemic. We should be spending money. Nobody disagrees with that. You know jamie. I'm sure is sincerely worried about the unemployment rate as we all are at six point nine percent that is far too high. But let's just scroll back february of two thousand and twenty before the pandemic hit the. Us unemployment rate was only three point. Five percent the lowest. I'd ever seen in my lifetime. Jamie had ever seen in his lifetime. Where stephania ottmar so. I don't think we should go into this program and say that mt or the story about debt is one that solely appropriate during pandemic. We have to ask when an economy is doing well. Are you willing to give up fiscal. And i think that's a very dangerous bet. For common everyday people this is round two which features audience questions compiled by ibm watson around the resolution. Stop worrying about the national deficit. We'll finish up and headed to closing statements. Right after the break a fresh perspective could change everything every choice issue and decision depends on how you look at it. Ibm watson is built to help us see things from all sides by deciphering the nuance in natural language from cultural debates to customer reviews. Ibm watson is making sense of data. That helps us understand more about all sides so we can make more informed decisions. Learn more at ibm dot com slash watson. This is intelligence squared. Us i'm john. Donvan are two teams of debaters. Answer questions from our audience in response to the resolution stopped worrying about national deficits up next. We hear from stephanie kelton. I think that this is exactly compatible. With what jamie naira arguing. I think we've found some agreement here that in the current moment we recognize that the economy needs the fiscal support has been provided and i will make the case. I think jamie as well that we aren't doing enough that in spite of the three trillion dollar deficit we have today. it is still too small. Congress needs to do war to provide fiscal support to the economy as a branch to the other side of the pandemic and beyond that recovery an investment in the economy. So at what point does it become appropriate for the government to withdraw some fiscal support. That's the question. And i think we're having the right conversation. We're looking at the real economy sending us a signal. Count the number of people in the unemployment line. How many how. Many people remain unemployed. We'll give you a pretty good idea of how long we need to continue the fiscal support and when it will be safe for congress to begin to withdraw fiscal support. No one is saying keep deficits at three or five trillion in perpetuity. We're saying recognize the important role. The federal government can play using its budget to sustain incomes to keep families whole to keep businesses from going under to keep people from losing their homes provide a bridge to the other side and the deficit is needed. Now it's too small and we're going to need it for some time to come. I don't think anyone has made the point to make now. Which is that fighting. Deficits and debt can actually help the economy and create more jobs. Let's go back to the nineteen nineties. During that decade the us economy created nearly twenty million net new jobs why president clinton a democrat and republicans in congress got together and agreed to cut spending. The deficit went down now. During this period the federal reserve board did not change interest rates. The inflation rate did not change but interest rates fell market interest rates interest rates for bars for homebuyers for car buyers for businesses. Those rates fell which meant we had a burst of investment and nearly twenty million net. New jobs were created. So i'm thankful that a democratic administration and a republican administration in the nineteen ninety s had the sense to in any emerging ideas of mt and instead accept principles that go back to one thousand five hundred twenty five hundred years. You know we do have experience with full employment policy in this country. We drove in unemployment down to zero in the second world. War kept inflation under control withdrawal of unemployment down very far below four percent in the late nineteen ninety s and there was no revival of inflation which unemployment down below four percent in the last few years without any revival of inflation so it is clearly possible to do it and clearly possible in the context of the united states. What we did in two thousand twenty when we were hit with a pandemic was utterly remarkable. We basically in the united states we poured to over two trillion dollars into the economy over. Ten percent of our national income does more income to replace their lost wages to keep them in their homes. We're running out of that money now. We need to put some more in. It's as simple as that to say. We can't do it for some reason. That wasn't the parents. Seven months ago is as a proposition which has no foundation in any any reality that we currently face it. What is the reality is that people's debts are continuing to pile up their mortgages their rent. Their utility bills their incomes are not keeping pace their jobs have not come back and we need to be in a position one way or another to get them through this so that the economy can in fact we cover while resolution is about. The national debt is a question from walter. Chen who's in the audience and it goes like this if public debt does not matter what about personal and corporate debt could government by all personal and corporate debt. Then it's everybody happily ever after. And i wanted to take that to stephanie. Because i think it sounds like a challenge to your side. And i think it's a little bit red meat for your opponents. So yes you're right. They're very different right. When the federal government issues a bond it is making a promise to the bondholder and the promise is in the future that bond will turn back into currency right. I will pay that bond off by giving you. Us dollars which can only come from me. The federal government. The united states of america so the government is the issue of both of these financial instruments. It is the issue of the currency and is the issuer of this debt instrument that we call a government bond. Okay so is the risk different when a private company borrows and takes on debt of course if gm issues bonds if ibm issues bonds. It is raising money and now it's on the hook to pay back what. Us dollars but where these companies get. Us dollars will from right. They have to get the currency from somewhere in order to be able to make good on the debt service and and to pay the debt. And so it's a completely different completely. Different risk factors associated with these things Comparing personal to government debt. Here's a big difference if you're relative if your father is a spendthrift and spends all of his money and goes deep into debt and then dies you. Don't get stuck with that debt. The american legal system says the debt dies would dear old dad but when the government spends money it goes on forever as debt and new generations inherit that debt so in that sense. Public debt is far more and far more dangerous than personal debt. Because it's passed on to innocence generations to come. Let's stay with this point. And i'm on to another question because i can see you stephanie. Dying to answer is bond to this. And i think that is a question that a lot of people will have is the generational impact. Now the the the bonds that we're talking about are going to become the assets to people in the next generation. And i think mr buckle said earlier and the point is that correct one that it is always a distributional question. You cannot burden an entire generation with government bonds with assets with wealth. They inherit what does happen. Is that in the future. The future will be populated. Some of the people in the future will be tax payers and some of the few people in the future will be bondholders and so there is a distributional issue reid who receives the interest on those bonds who holds them as part of their wealth in their portfolios. There can be different people but for sure. The next generation will inherit a portion of those government securities and they will be part of their neck financial wealth stability. This is very strange. Hearing for byu the buns are most bought by rich people and to build north texas et cetera to berg born by poppy also put people so this from the public debt and the ball shoot the inequalities created by this instrument all right that concludes the second round of our debate. The conversation around. And i wanna thank you all for conducting that very civilly. And here's where we are. We are about to hear closing statements from each debater. They will be briefed. They will be two minutes each and this is their last chance to try to persuade you to vote for their side. Remember right after. They've made these arguments. You'll be asked to vote for the second time and your votes. That will decide our winter. So let's move onto round three closing statements in here to make her statement in support of the motion. Stop worrying about the national deficit. Is stephanie kelton. Thank you and thank you all again. I go back to my favorite american humorist mark twain. And say that you know mark twain famously told us that it's often easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. And i am here to tell you with my friend. dr galbraith. We have been fooled and you. They are trying to fool you tonight. And the american people are often fooled into getting confused about government deficits. The word itself. Sounds like a problem year. Someone say the government's budget is indefinite. It almost you know on the surface present says a problem. And what we've tried to do here tonight is to cast a different light on this thing that we call the deficit to remind you that on the other side of the government's deficit lies a financial surplus for someone who gets it and for what purpose. Those are important questions. The cares act. That i brought up a couple of times already. Tonight was an example of a government using its deficit to send a unemployed workers an extra six hundred dollars a week to help keep them whole to send a twelve hundred dollar check to most americans in the pandemic to help out with costs To help small businesses keep their workers on payroll and cover expenses. That's an example of government using the deficit to deliver a financial leg up for struggling people. Another example of using deficits was the tax cuts that republicans passed in two thousand and seventeen a roughly two trillion dollar addition to deficits that delivered a financial windfall to the pupil in our society who lease need the help so as a reminder every deficit is good for someone the question is for whom and for what right now the last thing we need to do turn on government deficits to be afraid of them to begin to worry about them because if we do that our lawmakers in washington are gonna pull back. They're going to refuse to provide the fiscal support that our economy desperately needs. And that's going to hurt all of us. So i'm asking you not to worry about the deficit not to get fooled and to vote for the movement. Thank you thank you stephanie. Kelton next closing statement is against the resolution and it comes from. Todd buckled todd. With thank you and thank you so much for giving us the opportunity today and the opportunity to speak with our distinguished colleagues. But i have to be honest. Modern monetary theory which advocates larger deficits and printing money. Almost in all cases is modern in the sense of jackson. Pollock painting is modern. It's colorful it's hypnotic but it's a mess and it can do damage. Let me give you a. I understand the impetus force. I understand the frustration. I'll tell you the the other day. I was driving to a friend's house with mask with my daughter. I hadn't been to the neighborhood before and there was a roadblock and my daughter said let me turn on google maps. And i said no. I don't need google maps. i'll find a way to do it. I know how to figure out how to get there. And so we're driving around and snaking through the community. And i'm lost and google maps is now telling me make a u-turn at the next intersection but i'm not going to listen because i think i know better and google maps is again telling me make a the next intersection and google. Maps has the map. It has the evidence it has the experience. What do i have. I have the moral superiority that i know better will. I'm afraid with this. Debate comes down to is not evidence because we've talked throughout history. We've talked throughout continents. We've talked throughout eras. We've talked about democratic administrations republican administrations. And there's absolutely no evidence that modern monetary theory would have raised the standard of living. More likely it would have depleted and possibly destroy the standard of living of countries that adopted it so winston churchill purportedly once said you can always depend on the yanks to do the right thing after they've exhausted every other opportunity will we're looking at lots of different options including m. t. but it is better to do the right thing and to respect the debts and deficits and understand that it is not necessarily our standard of living but our children and grandchildren. It is what is at stake. Thank you tie buckled our third in the lineup and closing statements. james galbraith. James expire much. Less to worry is showman to worry. Unnecessarily is neurotic. We have plenty of things to worry about in the issue that divides professor calton on myself from our opponents isn't really deficits our national debt. The issue that divides us is whether we have the capacity to address the important problems that actually face us whether we have the capacity to stabilize our economy in the face of the pandemic and to deal with the public health challenges whether we have the capacity to reduce unemployment whether we can a coke with climate change whether we can address inequality and the legacies of racial divide in our countries. These are the issues that are in front of us. are opponents. say no. We can't do that. There are mysterious reasons of high finance. Why this is impossible to quote. John maynard keynes from the other epoch. Labral would rise. Cadavre would come down. This is not the way the world actually is. We have seen as i've said many times so far in this debate from this year's experience from the experience of the past four years from the experience of the past forty years that yes we can address these problems if we have the will the organization the capacity and the determination to do them. We can't do it if we say. Now there's some mysterious financially why we can't that's our opponents position but their position is really that they don't want to address these problems we do and we say once again if we can actually achieve us. We can afford it finances of bookkeeping matter for our countries. It is a matter that's important but it is not a constraint and people should stop worrying about things that are not important so that they can focus their will in the attention on things that truly are. thank you. Thank you james galbraith and tomorrow is seeing. You get the last word in this debate. Arguing against the resolution. Stop worrying about national deficits. Your closing statement begins now not worry about public deficits functions as a permit to only be public spending cord. I has demonstrated that ineffectiveness and finally collapse of the soviet economic system that you to the self budget constraints on companies. The same is true for public finance without constraints. Public spending ran out of control. They are always so many socially beneficial projects that previously lacked funding to be realized against the picker out of centuries of inflationary episodes renowned german economists once remarked expecting properly politicians to resist the temptation of free public spending is like expected to get dog to sit disciplined before box of sausages says cemetary of defunct currencies house innumerable tops sue out a long history of humankind. All of them will ruined by excessive public spending beat by kings dictators or parliaments proposals to ignore public deficits and debt issue populism promising a land of milk and honey the shortest way to undermine and ultimately destroy the value of currencies. Thank you tomorrow. Saying and that concludes round three of this intelligence squared. Us debate and it concludes our arguments. It's now time for you. Our audience to tell us who you felt was most persuasive. We're going to ask you to do your second vote. And i wanna remind you it's the side that sways the most votes between the first and the second vote that will be declared our winter. All right it's all in now. I have the final results once again. Remember it's the difference between the first and the second vote that determines our winter. Here's how it went on the resolution. Stop worrying about deficits before the debate and pulling our live audience. Fifty five percent were in agreement with the resolution. Twenty nine percent were against and sixteen percent. Were undecided. Those are the first results again. It's going to be the difference between the first and second that determines our winner on the second vote. It went like this. The resolution stop worrying about national deficits. Their first vote was fifty five percent. Their second vote was seventy three percent. They pulled up. Eighteen percentage points. That's going to be the number to be the team against the resolution there first of all it was twenty nine percent their second vote when down to twenty four percent means. This debate goes to the team arguing for the resolution. Stop worrying about deficits are congratulations to that team. But our congratulations to all four of you for taking part in this debate and doing so with such civility and intelligence. Those are our hallmarks. Congratulations to all of you. Thanks to everyone who took part and thank you for me. John donvan intelligence squared. Us we'll see you next time. Thank you for tuning into this. Special episode of that's debatable presented in partnership with bloomberg media and sponsored by ibm intelligence. Squared is a nonprofit generously. Funded by listeners. Like you and by the rosencrantz foundation. Klay connor is our ceo. David ariosto is head of editorial amy craft has chief of staff leads production and shell mera is our consulting producer crystal hawes and damon whitmore our our radio producers robert rosencrantz as our chairman. And i'm your host. John donvan panoply.

Us james galbraith stephanie stephanie kelton federal government Todd buchholz Kelton four percent mark twain alexander hamilton britain government imf seventeen percent dr galbraith Ibm John donvan otmar issing three trillion dollars Mr bill colts
Margaret Evans met Canadian women in a detention camp for families of ISIS militants

The Current

17:56 min | 2 months ago

Margaret Evans met Canadian women in a detention camp for families of ISIS militants

"Hi damon fareless host of hunting warhead from. Cbc podcasts in. The norwegian newspaper fiji hunting. Warhead follows a global team of police and journalists says the attempt to dismantle a massive network of predators on the dark web winner of the grand prize for best investigative reporting the new york festivals and recommended by the guardian culture and the globe in mail. You can find hunting warhead on. Cbc listen or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. More than three years after isis was chased out of raka syria. The question of what to do with the families of isis fighters who have canadian citizenship has still not been answered. there are women and children's still detained in camps in northeastern syria. Last month canada's federal government provided travel documents for a four year old girl to enter this country but others including the girl's mother are still living a life in limbo margaret. Evans is a cbc senior correspondent. Based in london. She was at the al roj detention camp where she spoke with some of the canadian women. There including that girl's mother margaret history returned and joins me now from london margaret. Good morning. Hi matt what is life like inside this camp. Well it's It's dismal by all accounts to the to the women. We spoke to its. We weren't actually allowed to visit them in the tents that they're living in but it is as you might pick your any refugee camp You know behind barbed wire armed guards and There about twenty five hundred people in this particular camp that seven hundred eighty four families of suspected isis militants. The women we spoke to talk to you Basically the lock of horizon but also living in in a camp in these cramped conditions and they worried about money food Being able to to to have medicine for the kids that kind of thing permanent caribbeans are there. It's hard to tell precisely it. Estimates are that it's between thirty and thirty five with most of them being children and many of them kids under the age of six one of the canadian women. Who is there. As i mentioned is the mother of that four year old who was brought to canada in march. What can you tell us about her. Well when we spoke to. I should say i'm asked that. We not identify them so that it would protect the identity in particular of their children but they also wanted to guard their own identity. They're all aware that their place is not viewed with sympathy by a lot of canadians Have court cases pending. They have lawyers in canada acting on their behalf and they were all women who seemed really frightened. They were frightened of saying the wrong thing because they have lawyers acting on their behalf. They were frightened of speaking in front of their syrian kurdish jailers and they were frightened of being stuck in that camp forever in frightened for the future of their children's children. This young woman took the decision to basically get her child out even though she knew that she couldn't get out and so she with the help of a former. Us diplomat named peter. Galbraith actually managed to get this done Her he helped her sister traveled to northern iraq than across the border into this region of syria which is an autonomously run region by the syrian kurds. So state players can say it's a state was area. We can't go. That's canada. Also says but in any case you asked about this young woman. She's she's like any woman you might need. She was concerned about Her child she was friendly. She is not wearing a niqab the the uniform of many isis women. Of course she's now wearing tight black jeans. She had a ball cap sunglasses on. Says she's been going through a lot of change. She's worried about these changes. She's made because there are radicalized women in the camp there are still people who are very strongly supporting isis. And she says that that decision to change the way she looks puts her in danger. She's been labeled in prostate. Yeah and she felt again that the situation that they were facing in that camp was desperate enough that she would take this dramatic step of letting her daughter come to canada with her and being again. Peter galbraith is a former u. s. diplomat described it as a selfless act. And you know all of the women that we spoke to see it. Because i mean you're they're living in this camp and they're sort of part of each part of their identity is affected their mothers. She talked about having to pack bag of her daughter as she left you putting it in her favorite teddy bear rabbit and basically you know she called it sugar coating but you know saying to her daughter. You go ahead. i'll come come later. But and she talked birch sort of swinging between the hope that that might actually happen and despair but knowing that life in the camp is so miserable and and right now so without a horizon that was a chance for her daughter to half alive that she feels that she might not she might be denied. Hoover debate the realistically that they will be reunited. I think she does. I think that yeah. I think that there's still hope alive in in certainly the four women that i talked to. I mean like you said sort of swinging between despair and hope that you know she. She she talked about trying to make amends. She said she joined a de radicalization program. That's available in the camp in saying. She felt remorseful. Because i don't know what i can do to show people. How remorseful i am. You know every bit sort of sense that everybody makes mistakes she. She says i asked her. What were you like when you laugh like how did how did this happen she. She described herself as someone who was quite easily led that her circumstances were almost like she was being groomed. You as she met some money canada who introduced her to this to this earth. Man she married and then came. She insists she you know she committed no crimes while living within the islamic state. She described herself as a housewife and said that actually things have been tougher for her since she was trout transferred to the camps went first to a much larger camp called a whole which has sixty thousand people and and it's a much much harder place than arose which is where we think most of the canadians have now been moved and the syrian kurdish authorities. Say that they've been moved because it's a less dangerous camp in. They're less likely to be targets of radicalization. There at the women themselves are less radicalized than people in that larger camp. Let's take a listen to another canadian woman that you spoke within the camp. I'm talking to my mom. She's the one trying to push things over there. But it's not easy any shove lawyer for me and everything but is really moving and i. I was believing which was like soon soon soon. Things are moving but after three years in a half. I'm just like it's been too long. It's into so when you imagine your future. What are you thinking. Especially in the beginning. I really was imaging like going back and my kids going back to school and having alive going finishing college going to university and going back to life as normal. But i'm actually losing hope when you left canada and you came to be a part of the islamic state presumably. What were you hoping for them. What did you envisage for your future. Okay okay you've heard about the young woman in the camp who managed to send. Her daughter is with the sister s to canada is. How did that make you feel. What do you think about that decision. I wouldn't send my kids. I'm like they've been already through a lot being here. And they were imprisoned the fear and they're still going through right now and i cannot let them go for them. It will be hard for me. Also the only reason here. I'm still coping going any still going on with my day. Every day is because of them once. they're gone. I wouldn't have anything else to do here. And i'm nulla iron of ideas in this age of click bait and on much. Shouting ideas is a meeting ground. People who want to deepen their understanding of the world. Join me as we crack. Open a concept to see how it plays out over place and time and how matters today from the rise of authoritarianism to the history of cult movies. No idea is off. Limits ideas is on the cbc. Listen up or wherever you find your podcasts. I'm speaking to you at a moment of grave. Crisis i'm jeff turner and this is recall. It's a series about history not the ancient past but history. That still hot to the touch. In this first season i explore revolutionary political movement that brought a modern democracy to the brink. You can find recall how to start a revolution on the cbc. Listen app or wherever you get. Your podcasts margaret. That speaks to the despair that you were describing the camp. That's right You know it not interview was interesting because we went through the interview and she said she didn't want to answer all the questions and she's very polite and her kids who are very polite to. She had two kids with her and she you know. She had a pair of glasses on. One of the lenses was broken. And i asked her about that and said oh. That's not so much issue it's can get enough. Need to feed the kids and medicine but at the end of the interview. She asked me she said. Do you mind if i ask you some questions. Of course the question she asked was. Is there any sign that the canadian government is moving that they might be willing to bring us back to canada and i answered her honestly. Which at present. I don't see any signs of that acsc. You know obviously don't know for sure you know. And and she started to cry after after that you know very quietly turned her head away. Didn't want her kids to see that. Yeah let's take a listen to another canadian mother that you spoke with in the camps. You know you. you can't do anything i me. I can't do anything. I cannot. I respect what you give me. They just want. What can i well my kids when she says why. Are you judging my kids. Who does she blame for them. Being stuck in this camp well see she. She blames the canadian government for not bringing them home not allowing the mothers to go home if they do. Send the kids out. I mean there are only two instances. We know of this this this last woman. We've been listening to. She came running towards us as we're about to leave. She'd heard you know they're canadian. Journalists in the camp and she begged us to take a picture of her daughter who was around six who was suffering from some kind of skin lesions on her forehead and send you know. My my child is sick. You know please take this picture. Please show it to canadians that to show that the conditions that are happening here and it's the kids that are suffering. She obviously herself was extremely distraught and seemed you know emotionally exhausted and basically said you know take take me home and if you wanna put me on trial trial. I'll happily do that. But don't make kids pay for what you're accusing me of. Which was a common sentiment amongst the four women we talked to. Do you have a sense as to why. Canada hasn't brought these women and children back to this country. Obviously i mean we spoken about this on the program. It is a politically incredibly sensitive issue. and and beyond politics as well. But what's your sense of it. Well it's it's hard to figure it out. Because i mean obviously the line from ottawa has been consistent. Haven't changed at all. They insist that you know. It's too dangerous to send consular officials to this part of syria. Even though several other nations including the united states have repatriated not just some of their citizens that the wives and the families but the people Isis militants there was accused of being isis members. So you can do it The the syrian. Kurds say that canada was actually the first country to approach them. After after that you know the the sort of the fall of raka before the final act in in in in the islamic state in syria but said in two thousand eighteen canada actually approached him about repatriating not just the the women and children family members fought those a accused of being isis militants themselves. The canadian mint where we think there probably about eight of them. They're kept in them in prisons. And the kurd said it went through this process where wherein they actually were getting travel papers ready documents all of that and then for something changed. The canadian government does backed out. Said we're not doing it and one of the women that we were talking to. You just heard the woman who was talking about You know what she dreamed of when she went home. She confirmed that she was actually can when she was she was taken. She was arrested by the syrian kurds in two thousand seventeen when she was trying to escape islamic state territory or leave her. Her husband was a fighter she says who had sent her on and she was taken to prison and then taken to a road camp for a couple of months and then sent back to prison with the understanding that she and another canadian woman were going to be handed over to the canadian authorities and she said and then something went wrong and we don't know what they took us back to this camp and they've been there since she was one of the first two canadians to be taken to that. Can that was two thousand seventeen and so obviously there's real desperation to get out of the campaign get home but is your sense that those women realistically think that's going to happen. I don't i don't think they know i think they want. It's certainly they're trying as i said. A number of them have lawyers the syrian kurdish authorities. I should say have at the beginning. They were saying to canada. Take every everybody back. The kind of changed their a little bit lately. Saying take the women and children were ready to hand them over. is especially to women. We know for sure that they haven't committed any crimes beyond being a part of the islamic state's through their their family or their husbands but now they're saying look candidate. If you're not going to take your your men back than help us. Set up some kind of tribunal and we'll try them here because we do have the evidence to convict them on that becomes difficult again for canada because they can sickly say. Have you set up a tribunal international tribunal in a in a part of the country what is not recognized as being state so You know. I think there's a long way to go before before. This issue is resolved but the seer. The syrian kurds are begging other candidates not alone and we've we've consistently heard recently the head of the international committee of the red cross saying you must take your citizens. Home in is an unfair burden on this part of the world. We've seen the un secretary general calling out canada failing especially to take the women and children home and criticism by human rights groups of of forcing women to make a decision where they might have to choose to send their children when they know they can't go with them. So separating basically families margaret. I really appreciate hearing from you about this. And from what you saw They're in those camps. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Margaret evans is a cbc senior correspondent based in london for more cbc podcasts. Go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.

canada syria cbc margaret damon fareless canadian government al roj detention camp Cbc Peter galbraith london fiji Galbraith Evans federal government birch matt jeff turner Hoover iraq new york
269: Fixing Flaky Tests Like a Detective with Sonja Peterson

Ruby on Rails Podcast

15:15 min | 2 years ago

269: Fixing Flaky Tests Like a Detective with Sonja Peterson

"Listening to the ruby on rails podcast on the five by five network. You listen episode to sixty nine and I'm your host for Martin song is a senior software engineer devoted health, a company working to ride better health insurance and care for seniors by treating them all like family voted. She's go and type script to build tools that help coordinate care for devote its members before working into voted. She worked at book. Bob, a book discovery service where she fell in love with ruby and ruby on rails. She'll be giving talk this year rails. Con- how to fix flaky tests maintain a reliable test, suite welcome to the show sign. Yeah. Thanks. It's great to be here. Fabulous. Well, sonya. Can you please? Tell us your developer origin story. Sure. So I guess if it counts, I started making my very first very nineties websites back in middle school plaza marquees, and those special cursor affects you have stars trailing behind, but I didn't really start programming intil college where I took a bull computer, science classes, and I liked them. But they're very abstract. It was like build a compiler. And I wasn't sure at the time. Whether this is what I wanted to do with my life. But I did know that I love writing. So ended up majoring in English and towards the end of my time at college. I got the chance to learn more web development, including some rails through some extracurricular programs. So it wasn't until I got my first job after college where I was working at a startup a book, bub alongside software engineers that. I really started understand what it would be like to be offer engineering professionally and also started to realize that it was something I really wanted to do and actually was really suited for it turned out it turned out because it was just so different from the kind of work that I had actually done for my computer, science classes. I just didn't realize what it would be like real software engineering is so much. There's so much communication trying to write code and ways other people can understand, and I really love that. Aspect of it. In addition to all the logical challenges and building things that felt concrete. So as working book, Bob, I started out on the business Feldman team. But I also started using the program skills that I'd gotten in college just kind of wherever I could building out little internal tools and then starting to work on our internal Adleman which was built with Rabin ruby on rails. And the more. I did the more. I really liked it. And I ended up through combination of some self teaching and also learning on the job. I ended up learning enough to be able to move from the business development team over to this offer engineering team within my first year at the company and I've been offering near ever since. I have always had an interest in go. But haven't tried it myself coming from ruby? What are the top three things? I should know. Yeah. That's a great question. Switching from mostly program to programming. Go has been really interesting 'cause they're so different. I really like programming with both of them. But in pretty different ways, I feel like the first thing I really noticed is that in ruby. There's always a lot of different ways to do something or express something. So there's kind of a lot of freedom for you decide how you want to write a particular piece of code it could turn out differently on different days and go there's usually much fewer ways to write the same thing. And that can feel a little bit limiting at first. But it also makes learning it someone easier. Another thing that I noticed was there's no equivalent of rails in go in terms of being this really all inclusive and super like the one web framework that pretty much everybody uses. They're definitely some model view controller frameworks out there. But there isn't as much of one clear winner, and there are more people who are rolling their own. And I think it's often because people who are using go or often building more custom high-skill ability use cases. And so they just want more control over the entire web application, so they just use smaller third party, libraries or parts of the standard library to put that together. So that's just kind of an interesting difference to observe in the community. And then there's also the fact that go is statically typed, of course, and review is not at least not yet though. I do here there some developments on that front with ruby three. And I was really interested in spending some time working with this type language in productions. It's one of those things as a ruby program. Are you you'll hear? People saying like, oh, only we had types that bug would have never happened and having types definitely really nice. Sometimes I mean to me it feels kind of like getting a set of basic unit tests for free. So you don't essentially, no if your code is completely. Correct. Just because it compiles, but you do know it'll run, and I find it interesting to kind of just in recognize what the compiler can catch. And then what it can't catch it? Sometimes can even will make me a little overconfident that my code is going to work just because the types checkout, and then I run it and realize I've got the signed backwards or whatever. So there's still a need for writing. Good tests to make sure that your code is accurate. I would love to hear situation where someone says, you know, a test or just not needed anymore. We're we're done. Yeah. Definitely not the case of we not the case. Okay. Well, what was it like to start a job where the code base is not in your core language? Yes. So I did try out go a bit before I started. But most of the my learning of go was on the job. And I think it really helped that my company is there there were many people who joined before me who hadn't used go professional before. And so they were used to helping people ramp up on it. And there was lots of support for doing that. I tried to do a lot of pairing. My first couple of months to help get ramped up since it's a great way to not just learn like syntax and the basics, but like how people actually program like what is the workflow? Like, what's the fastest way to debugged and run your tests and all of that? And so I tried to do more observant impairing whenever I could when I was starting out. And I think the other thing was just trying to be easy on myself because it is really hard. Go from being super comfortable on a language having used it for years and years, and then go to a new language where you feel like you're constantly writing with your left hand or something even the basic things that really hard, and you have to look them up, and it can feel like you forgot how to code. So I did have to kind of recognize like, okay? This feels hard because I'm learning, but it's going to get better. And it definitely does. And it's been really worth it to get that like really contrast experience of working in a different language. Sounds like a really cool opportunities. You just laughable yourself overall as an engineer. So that is really neat and something I'm definitely going to have to try myself. So moving on your rails com. Talk fixing leaky tests like detective, I'm going to read the synopsis row quick every test. We'd has them a few tests that usually pass but sometimes mysteriously fail when run on the same code since. They can't be reliably replicated. They can be tough to fix. The good news is there's a set of usual suspects that cause them test. Order acing code time sorting and randomness. While walking through examples of each type. I'll show you methods for identifying culprit that ranged from catching screen shots to travelling through time, you'll leave with the skills to fix any flaky tests fast with strategies for monitoring improving your test reliability overall. This sounds like a fantastic talk indefinitely a reason that I wanted to bring you on the show because without giving away. How do you capture those screen shots? Yes. So kepi bar which is the main tool that people use to do full sack feature testing rails apps. It actually has the ability built in depending on which driver using. But for quite a few of the drivers that you can use it to capture screen shots whenever one of your tests fills, and it can be super helpful for figuring out. What state everything ended up in at the end of the tests. And so you can either implement that manually with basically after each hooks around each of your tests or you can use the capybaras screen shot, Jim which I definitely recommend. Why did you decide to give a talk about playing tests? Yes. So fixing flaky test was one of the first really tough bugs that I feel like I dealt with a developer. And there was this particular test that was failing. I'm one of the first big features that I wrote, and I was just banging my head against the wall for weeks trying to figure out what was going on. And it really revealed to me like how much I didn't know about the entire stack of the that was running my tests that was running my code all of these different pieces that fit together and the really subtle things about them that can allow a test to pass or fail intermittently. And so learning how to fix them really forced me to fill in all those gaps and ended up once I was able to those caps being really interesting in fun. And I think the reason why I called the talk fixing flaky tests like a detective is because it really feels like kind of mystery you're putting together these different clues pulling together information, you're like, observing sometimes I. I'm doing a out when I'm trying to see to have test fail again and get some more information. So it's just a really interesting sort of problem, and it's a little bit different than your typical bug. Because a lot of your typical bugs if you don't fully understand them. You can basically replicate them by like see like figuring out. What are these report? How did they get into the state you're able to replicate the air, and then you can just kind of try different fixes until the air goes away and with lakey tests. You just can't do that. Because by definition, they only pop up every now, and then it's really hard to reliably replicate them unless you have actually understood and solve them. And so you have to take a different approach to it. So that was the other thing that I really was interested in giving talk about kind of communicating that idea of using a different methodology to solve these types of problems than you might use for other types of bugs. So I have asked this because it's pretty controversial within our expect to see the example. In many many tests or our spec. Yeah. I about that a little bit too. Because obviously many tests is built into rails within our spec is also very popular. I tried to make sure the talk was applicable no matter, whether you're using many tests or our spec in always call out if I'm referencing in our spec specific feature versus something that specific too many test since there's definitely plenty of people using both. So yeah. So I have certainly had this experience before were I have had a flaky tests. Is there ever a time where you just say enough is enough and you just simply delete that flaky test. Yeah. That's a good question. And it's a tough one. I think if that's coming up if I'm at the point where I'm like, should I still eat this test? I try to take a step back and look at what am I test in? And why testing it and what what are the potential failures that could happen if? Because of a lack of test coverage, this sort of thing broke because whenever you're writing tests, you're making trade offs between how realistic do I wanna be how much effort do? I wanna put into that. To get this much coverage for ses how much I wanna keep my test, suite simple and fast to run and easy to change. I move forward. And so you're kind of trying to strike this balance. There's this ID of the testing pyramid that you've maybe familiar with with unit tests on the bottom lots of unit test since those are fast to run easy to write. And then as you go up, the pyramid and things get more and more realistic and our testing more of the full stack or the full set of components work together. You write fewer and fewer tests because those are harder to maintain. So I kind of look at what's my testing period for the pyramid for this particular feature. Look like is it does it have the right balance maybe idea of overkill in terms of the number of feature tests. I'm writing for it. And if the flaky tests feature tests, I can remove it and maybe cover it with a. Scoop unit test or a back end tests or a controller test or something like that. So it depends a little bit on the situation. It all, but I also don't want people to give up on writing tests for something just because they're running into flaky tests because dealing with Linke test really is part of writing tests in so it can really prevent you from getting the coverage you want. If you don't have the time and. Ability to dig in and fix some of the flaky tests. So I think I don't want to encourage just like deleting any tests that flakes, obviously. But it is totally fair to take a step back and see how much is it worth it to me to maintain this particular test Sonya, I can't wrap up this podcast without asking what crime novel shy queuing up to read. Yeah. So I'm a huge fan of ton of French. She's written this whole series of murder mysteries that are set in or near Dublin. And they're just this great combination. They've got a mazing character development, but also really well plotted mysteries that you don't figure out until the very end, and I just love her books. So the first book in that series is in the woods, but my favorite is probably the trespasser. So probably make sense to start at the beginning. But you don't strictly need to really any of ton of wrenches. Books are great. And the other ones I'd recommend. If you want something a little more offbeat. I just read the seven and a half deaths of Hardcastle, which was really fun. If you liked Russian doll. I definitely recommend that one. And I've also enjoyed all of Galbraith's books. That's JK Rollings pen name for writing crime fiction. That's awesome. I definitely needed some new stuff to read. So thank you so much for that. How can our listeners follow what you're up to? Yeah. So you can find me on Twitter. My handle is sign yet Peterson. And you can definitely catch. Her talk at rails com- if you're lucky enough to be below to attend. Only that all up in the show notes. It was fantastic to having today. Sonya listeners if you're attending rails comp shirted attempts on his talk talk to you next week.

ruby Bob developer Martin software engineer Twitter development team JK Rollings Adleman Hardcastle Galbraith engineer Peterson Feldman Rabin Sonya Jim
December 18: Book of revelations

As It Happens from CBC Radio

1:19:01 hr | 1 year ago

December 18: Book of revelations

"This is a CBC podcast. Hello I'm carol off good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is as it happens. The podcast cast addition. Tonight's the book of revelations the Jesuits in Canada are the first Catholic order in the country to agree to release the names of priests credibly accused of of sexual abuse. A broken system breaks people while world leaders gathering Geneva to discuss rebooting how to deal with refugees as I call it just describes the the crushing emotional toll on children in a camp in Greece. Not exactly hell to pay construction giant. SNC Lebanon will pay more than a quarter billion Leeann dollars after pleading guilty to fraud. We will ask whether we should be fine with that fine making ourselves youthful as part of a trip back in time into the days when as it happens was young. We'll hear about the people who were there. When it's Voice Change Bird's eye view at first and Nova Scotia Man? who was staring Ed Turkey vulture was certain it had been killed in the storm but he changed his mind in and because of the blink of an eye? And and why haven't I read Finnegans wake allowed. Well it's hard to say but our guest isn't just reciting the tongue twisting language in that difficult book by James James Joyce he's memorizing it as it happens the Wednesday edition radio that sees if he can answer are multiple choice questions. One branch of the Catholic Catholic Church and Canada says it's prepared to name names the jesuits say they'll publish the names of priests who have been accused of sexual abuse over the last sixty years. That's a response response to demands from abuse survivors and to an investigation in Pennsylvania which revealed that more than three hundred priests had been accused of abuse. Father Erik Olin role in disease leading the Canadian effort. He's the provincial superior of the Jesuits in Canada. We reached him in Montreal. Father Olinda it is no secret that priests in your order have been accused of sexual abuse. Why are you now agreeing to release their names? I think the best way that I could answer answer that question. East to start things off would be that What we're doing now releasing the names or or doing an internal audit with in view of eventually not really seeing the names within the next year or so is that it's all part of an evolving and evolving response that includes both learning as we go? Oh and re grounding grounding our our way of doing this way of proceeding In our own mission which is really to preach peace and reconciliation among those people right? Imagine that really answered it just again. Why are you now agreeing to release the names and identities indentity these people releasing preparing to release names? Now at this point in the whole process it would would be our desire to not just respond with financial compensations but really to move towards true reconciliation. This how will you decide the names of people the identities. You will release you. You're agreeing to release the names of those who are quote. Credibly accused Komo News. We've just started within the last six weeks and internal audits of our files To See to. Let's see what we have in our files in terms of. What exactly was the root of These accusations that we we are terming credible but to review the files that we have By outside auditors and so that they can bring us back the results else in the form of a report that will give us the data that we need out of that data we will also Use criteria that has been used by some of our Jesuit sister provinces in the US To decide okay. Well which of these names do. We feel compelled to release and so in in the United States. You just mentioned that the invisible investigation in Pennsylvania that revealed that at least three hundred priests had been accused of abuse to have any sense of what kinds of numbers were talking about in Canada. Really since since we're who We've begun to look back at our files that they'd back to the the night late nineteen fifties. We're coming up with a little with around fifteen fifteen names. Most of whom are deceased right now. Just given the numbers we have heard in the United States when these these these credibly accused lists of come up into into the hundreds. Don't just does not seem that fifteen is a rather low number. Perhaps it does on the surface It's possible a little bit. Our audit will uncover more and jesuits have been always really faithful keepers of files so we literally have Boxes and rooms and rooms files And even going back to nineteen fifty just the way the way we save letters way. We save correspondence mishitting not CETERA It means a lot of files but when you consider the influence. The jesuitical missions had in Canada over those years. When you you consider the residential schools when you consider the education facilities that jesuits where part of why would you not suspect that there might be more than just over? It doesn't feel I would like to say from my point of view Esa Jesuits Ivanisevic for twenty five years. This whole abuse question was a serious. He is part of my own to even join the order knowing knowing what I already knew. Twenty five years ago I think that across the board. We have been more diligent both in The way recruit members and don't move people a forward who we don't feel have have the vocation to serve as a jesuit. Maybe that's a bit pie in the sky to someone who doesn't always just listening to me for the first time But that has been my experience and my experience of being. The Jesuit provincial makes me believe that In some doc we are pretty healthy bunch your interview with the Global Mail you reveal that six jesuits who are currently Within the order are working in quote restricted capacity because of allegations. What does that mean that? They're in restricted capacity. It means that they would would be confined to doing To working In in house. Let's call it in house so for example. I'm talking to you from our provincial provincial office in Montreal and it's it's it's a self contained administrative workplace There's no pastoral that that were pastoral is key so there's no pastoral or outreach ministry to individuals but it's the given the pain and suffering the victims pins of these pieces of suffered. Why are they being allowed to work at all? Fight why not to kick them out of the order If I received that director from our superior general in Rome I would do it tomorrow. But that's not the way that our our order has Has decided to to proceed over these these years. Where when this since this has become public knowledge about the about sexual abusive priests what we've also learned is that there were enablers? There were those within the church hierarchy. Who turned a blind eye who moved offending priests other jurisdictions where they often often continued their abuse? When is church going to reveal that network? When are we gonNA know the names of those enablers within the ranks? We know them. uh-huh well I think that well I mean you. You're probably aware of it. And it was simultaneous to the publication of my into the globe and Male. But it just so happened and we didn't know it was going to happen. The the pope just announced that Vatican conceal not talking about these things is no oh longer operational and so Rate from the very top for Francis this signal has been given that these These enabler enablers are going are going to be are going to be named. We know a lot we we we know who the enablers were we. We know who the the bishops and others and religious superiors who rather than taking someone out of medicine. We're we're talking. We're going back to the nineteen fifties and maybe into the early sixties. Now really Rather than doing that they kind of shunted them around from place to place but just it was just sentenced. You said we know the enables. We know who they are. Are we going to know the enablers who they are. I would say we're moving in that direction. Father Olinda appreciate speaking with you thank you thanks. Carol Father Erik Oland is the provincial Vinca superior of the Jesuits in Canada. We reached him in Montreal for more on this story. Go to our website. CBC DOT CA slash h Just shy of two years and eleven months into his presidency. Donald Trump has been impeached members of the Democratic led House of Representatives voted in favor of impeachment tonight which sets the stage for trial L. in the Senate next year where the. US President has a Republican majority on his side for months now. Committees have been investigating whether the president abused his power in his dealings dealings with Ukraine. Republicans and Democrats remain mostly divided on their verdict. But Brenda wine. Apple is sure that the president violated his oath of office. She's the CO author of a letter published. This week that was signed by hundreds of historians. She also wrote the book. The impeaches the trial of Andrew Johnson and the dream of adjust nation. We reached Brenda wine apple in New York City. Ms One APO. How'd you feel as you watch all of this today? Well I feel stunned even so bird and proud to a certain extent of my country. Does it seem because there's been so much. The political baffling doing so much fire and brimstone leading up to this moment. Is it different today. Well it is and it isn't it certainly is different from the Clinton impeachment and certainly problem Nixon's and is threatened and teach men because he wasn't impeached but from my perspective which is more historical. It's very similar in uncanny ways to the impeachment of Andrew Johnson in eighteen sixty eight. Why why do you go back that far to see something a parallel to what is happening? Luke Donald Trump today. Well there are several reasons one is because of the nature of Donald Trump as president to has been called a a demagogue and so is Andrew. Johnson he loves his rallies and his base. So did Andrew Johnson. Although I'm not sure entered Johnson had a basis we call certainly did like rallies and because he both men really had a very antagonistic view of Congress a and they really pitted the executive branch against the legislative grant in our country the time when when Andrew Johnson was being impeached. The fate of your nation was It was in hand. Wasn't it this is just the civil war. You where where the country would go vis-a-vis slavery and the rights of African Americans and so much else dealing with racism and the white supremacy that represent with is is there is much at stake in this impeachment is there was well. They're the you know someone was asking me earlier today. That very same question but answer the question before I quit. I'm fearful that if trump were to be acquitted which I think people are fairly you know a got knowledge that he probably will be that that gave a kind of permission slip. relicensing to the white supremacists in the country who has been really more and more vocal in the past year you were so didn't they had been for a long time. I mean and there are probably a lot of different causes for that and clearly. You're right I mean after a civil war where the country's broken apart the direction of the country is certainly at stake but so was the meaning of the Constitution. And so with the meaning at that time the Declaration of independence. uh-huh in here I think the real constitutional issues at stake. You know about what a president powers really are and what one etta chief executive you should be allowed to do in one of those. Things is not allow foreign countries to meddle in domestic Elections of the other other to impeachments. And of course Nixon resigned before he could be. Impeached has been highly partisan as it is seems completely almost completely partisan in this cases it does that compare with the others. Well Nixon is. Is You know a striking counterexample because I I think you know and I think it's common wisdom that he resigned because he knew he would be impeached. And that would be embarked by part by. Bipartisan vote. You know with the case of Andrew Johnson. You can't get more partisan than a country that just fought a war north against south in civil war where you know. Seven seven hundred fifty thousand people were killed and people were still being slaughtered So that's pretty partisan so it seems to me that the whole notion of Oh this is terrible terrible. Because it's partisan is a bit of a red herring. It's of course it's going to be partisan how could it not be partisan because people have points of view in that they represent parties who have whose electorate voted for them. You are co wrote a letter. That did that. What seven hundred historian signed onto calling for this impeachment? Why the number might be up to a thousand why it does so many American all American historians? Why was it necessary? Why do you think that you and other historians needed to step in on this? Well I think that we you believe that. We have a cigarette role to play. Not just in the classroom. Not just writing. Not just making films because we're filmmakers involved but because you know we care about out the longevity of our country which is a fairly new country we feel that once again. It's at a crossroads. Maybe not as critical as right after a war orbits certainly critical if suddenly we live in a global world. Suddenly there are other countries participating in our elections and we felt that this is almost like an old fashioned petition. How do you think that Donald Trump and this impeachment? How does it fit in to history? Where does that put him to be? Put in the same sentence says Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton's impeachment. What does that put him well? I'm only laughing because I wouldn't want it but I wouldn't want to be president. I mean it's not a good thing and I think that Donald Trump's letter of yesterday shows that he himself knows whatever he might say. I call it a hoax or show me. He knows that he's GonNa go down in history as one of the very very few presidents who are impeached. And that's a stain gene on his presidency. No matter what happens in the Senate is one EPA we will leave it there and of course. We'll be watching. Thank you so much. Thank you bye okay. That was Brenda Y. Pull the author of the Impeach Irs the trial of Andrew Johnson and the dream of adjust nation. She was in New York City lobster fishermen locked is with the Turkey vulture the Turkey vulture blinked. It wasn't a staring contest. Robert Galbraith was standing on Nova Scotia Eastern shore recently Trying to discern whether a Turkey vulture was dead or alive as it lay on the sand buried under the weight of a massive did seal the Turkey vulture was in dire straits. It was very much alive is the blink proved Mr Galbraith and his friend were surveying the scene on Sunday after the shore had been pounded by storm. They helped bring burgess safety and even gave it a name or Galbraith told maritime noon host Bob Murphy the whole story today I noticed our wing underneath the seal flapping in the wind to win was written and then I saw the red hat and I knew right away with the Turkey vulture and I was going to have a close look at it because I thought it was dead Ed and all of a sudden it opened us is like wink through. You could see a block of the is on his right now. I can see that and I looked closer again. Ensures hack it it started opening is closing its eyes opening his eyes when I realized was alive so I said Jeff over here. This birds alive which is a a shocker. Because this is a pretty big seal. We're talking about right. Yes this one. I was between three and five hundred pounds at least even even though a large Peru for five to six foot wingspan. The bird of the Turkey. Volts around weighs about a kilogram or more. It's all wing so jeff grabbed the long two by four which drifted up on the beach. There was one hundred thirty. Thirty pound lobster fishermen listens. Large bar would Trying to turn over this probably five hundred pound seal. We ended up putting the bird by the way wrapped up in a recycled linen. Bad in my trunk and trump still smells like death. It's probably the first Turkey vulture if it's ever taken to fairies in its life so all in all I mean considering sitting it was squashed under a grey seal. The bird seems to be doing fairly well. Does it have a name at this point. Well like I named it. The Rock after Dwayne Johnson because it had all head I really just a bit cheesy when I realized he was a Canadian American with some first nations blogging in him. I thought wow. That's that's the person I wanted. Name the bird after Robert Galbraith is a photojournalist turned lobster. Mr Fisherman on Brier island in Nova Scotia he told that story about saving Turkey Vulture to maritime noon host. Bob Murphy earlier today river run past eve and Adam's from swerve of shore to bend of Bay brings us by a commodious Vikas of recirculated back to Health Castle and environs. So we gins perhaps the least readable novel ever written Finnegans. Wake by James Joyce as you know if you got past that sentence the going does it does not get easier. But according to Neil Kosher Meyer. That's precisely the appeal for years now. The Seattle based composer and pianist hasn't just been reading reading Finnegans wake. He's been memorizing and reciting experts at public performances this weekend. He tackled chapter six. He says it was the hardest hardest yet. I'm inclined to believe him. We reached Neil coach. Meyer in Seattle Neil for those who are not unfortunate enough have to have had to study finnegans wake at university. How would you describe it? Finnegans wake is a book to be experienced. It's a book to be heard. It's it's a tough go if you're just gonNa try and read it. It's an even tougher. Go if your main goal is to understand it. Joyce said as he was composing the this is a book that's being written by the people around me and it seems that he was collecting things. He overheard the things he read in the papers or on advertisements or whatever definitely seems like he had a story to tell and the story fitting is way if I will put it is. There's a guy who met another guy in a parked without being asked to. He defended himself against certain accusations. The other guy thought that was pretty pretty suspicious and rumors and scandals. You know arose all over the city of Dublin. But his wife is on his side and she's going to stand by him through thick and thin. That's basically the story okay. So you were determined to understand what the book was about but with the question is why why were you determined to memorize it I'm determined to memorize it because I'm not really determined to understand it at all. In the course of studying it it becomes clear that there's certain things we're going on but I think the beautiful thing about it is you can have a delightful time reading the book. Without understanding anything we are not not daunted though when you look at it and well first of all when you knew that on the very first page there is one of a number of one hundred letter words that Joyce used in this. That word was kind of what sparked the project. I was a graduate student in music theory at the time and I picked up the book and try to read it. It was like I was having to stop and I really got stopped when I got to the middle of the first page with that hundred letter word and the thought was I would have to like study this in practice this and take it like one little at a time if I were going to read this and that was like in high that this is more like a difficult piece of piano music so with that hundred letter word I see okay well the first syllable was Bob and the second syllable is bar. I put those together. It's Bob and eventually I worked at up and that word the dog walk. Don't run on run to one of our going to who wanted it and that's it that's okay and and that's but I couldn't do that when I first saw it took practice and so the next thought is well maybe the difficulties. That's like the hardest thing on the page. Certainly wouldn't be too hard to work out the rest of it. The fall about talk about talk in her own confront on Rondo on underwater taught who knows call do knock once all spayed old Parr retailed early in bed later on life down through all all Christian in Ways they can so i. That's a memory. That's part of what you have author Teradata. How much have you memorized? Finnegans wake at this point. I just performed chapter six This past Saturday evening. So what does that take the length of the book. The book is six hundred twenty six pages or something in the standard edition. My project is to an so far. I'm on track is is to learn a new chapter each year and to performance starting line. How long ago did you start to was Well I really started in the eighties. He's I learned. I learned chapter one between like nine hundred eighty four and eighty six and gave a number of performances at our apartment in San Diego in between between eighty seven and eighty nine. But I didn't really continue at that point. I picked it up in two thousand thirteen. Well I really want to do this I think. And so oh the first performance was the end of two thousand fourteen and then each December since then I've presented new chapter. And what's your plan for how long it's GonNa take you two chapters so seventeen years. We took seventeen years to write it. Yes exactly the gives another example example. Because it's really quite fun to listen to you recite okay. This is From chapter six. There's this wonderful stable toward the the end of the chapter the books and the Gripes Shanties and Laity men full stoppers and semi colonials alone. Neal's hybrid antelope arts. Swee thin space had a weary wide space. It lost have loaned looks ones of Nestles. All too lonely hearts and sits like broad hills and Looks he would've walking go by hord cries and Tony Romeo so one Grand Sumer evening after directly morning and his good supper gamut statis- having flippable is is really old his nostrils that decaffeinated his ears and value. He's thrilled he put on his impermeable seized his imputable harped on his crown and stepped out over. Oh his Mo rural oracle so called because it was chock full of Master plasters and that board just lean let out cartons strolled thrown with koskotas pentecost because all ten curry combs and set off from lots of special to see how badness sadness was badness in New Year to St- of all pencil weights. This from chapter six of Finnegans. Wake in your recital of chapter. Six performance is two and a half hours long. It's like the hardest thing I've ever done. Aside from a few moves that that I could think about as far as any any creative project this was more worth thing I've ever done on anything. Well Well Neil. We won't keep you. Obviously it's great chatting with you and thanks for entertaining us with a book that many to take care. Thank you carol by Neil. Kosher Mayer is a composer known for his public recitations of James Joyce's notoriously indecipherable. The book Finnegans wake. We reached him in Seattle. We have more on this story on our web page. CBC DOT CA Slash H When your computer fails sales you reboot it and might seem like a Glib analogy for the failures of the world's response to refugees but a reboot is exactly what the United Nations Commissioner for Refugees is calling for police `Grande wants to see a fairer more streamlined approach to hosting those who've been forced from their homes and right now in Geneva Switzerland global leaders and humanitarian groups are meeting for the first Global Refugee Forum? And considering what a real life reboot of that system might look like at the Maurya Refugee camp on the Greek island of Lesbos Angela Motorola sees the need for change firsthand. She's a psychologist with Doctors Without Borders. WHO works with children in the camp? She says for some the toll of fleeing their countries and living in the camp is almost unbearable. We reached her in Medellin Greece not far far from camp. Ms Motor Ellie. What signs of distress are you seeing? Among the children in that camp we we are seeing a very amount of symptoms of distress that go from sleeping disturbance from generalized fear. Go to specific. Fears symptoms anxiety to get to the most severe symptoms of south farming and attachment humint isolation. And we throw. What are the children doing to themselves? It depends very much from the bass experience. Those children have been already seeing some very soon as traumatic experience and now they can either regret Senior behavior and we go from not being able to focus anymore not to be able to read any more until actually stop talking still betting icon theft or adding aggressive behaviors towards themselves which is a way in which they kind of cope with the frustration and define that they feel around them Depending from the age they Well they do cut themselves they they do. If they are in the voice and peers they might also take medication abuse medication to live with the specific objective full ending their life all when we go to more youngest children's teen seeks to twelve they. I'm themselves by heating themselves. Sometimes we object sometimes with their heads some of those times they can boom the has I don't or uh-huh scratch themselves to the point that they d so it depends from also our day at sculpt with what's believed before how young are are these children when you say the ones who are there just lashing out at themselves. They're hitting their head on the wall or pulling their hair out or scratching themselves. House or withdrawing. How old are these children? The youngest we have seen a two years old two years old. Yes and there are approximately seven thousand children just in that one in Maurya camp alone is that right yes. The number increases every day and to be honest we can. I cannot keep up anymore because when I arrived three months ago there were about eight thousand. The people between adults and children and now there are eighteen thousand as a psychologist in that camp. What can you do to help those children? Children given how overcrowded unlimited yours sources are as a mental health. Team we are. I have other three colleagues to psychologists working would me one educator and one culture mediator actually Oh translation five see the majority of the Population Shinzo from Afghanistan at the moment sometimes difficult answer I have is what when they go back. And that's what we always ask ourselves of constantly. So what we try to do when they go back to more because we have consultation and then they go back and the living condition that are having the most most Or if it conscience is on their behavior and mental health now and we see that what we try to do is actually offering them Some kind of space where they can be children again when they can own space themselves to also test that our capacity to find a place of safety. That's the most important part of our job is to be to make them feel that there is somewhere the place where they can go back to the childhood. They actually deserve because in Malaya campus. Quite impossible to be child. The conditions in Maurya camp. We have done interviews already about that. We've seen images that are something out of hell. I mean the the overcrowding. The violence defy everything that has happened in that place where they all are but they've they've already come from stress. They've you say most of the ones they're now have come from Afghanistan. What have they already gone through that? They're still trying to process before they are living in this camp wanted of unaccompanied minors also amongst those children. We are talking about which means that there are more than thousand children there West no one and they have traveled all the way alone. If the only thing about this we can imagine how vulnerable young boy can be traveling alone from Afghanistan off Iraq. Cool any other place where there is water conflict so they are the most vulnerable ones they might have been to sexual violence. They might beat and abused. They might have witnessed abusive either or even just other things that have to do with violence ending the country three. Some of them have lost family members. It's such a picture of despair that you are painting with this and I'm thinking the same time as we speak. The there is a global refugee forum. Taking Place Far Away in Geneva Switzerland where they're trying to find solutions. That's the intention if you could be there if you could hold that room and tell them you need in the way of solutions. What would you say? I would say that all the people in Mali and after right to ever attain you fight life and future and they must must be evacuated as soon as possible. You know place that gives them back. We speak not. It doesn't have to happen tomorrow. It's today right now is Motorola. I admire your courage and I thank you for the work. You're doing and thanks for speaking with us. Thank you very not. The MOTARI is a psychologist working for Doctors Without Borders at the Morio refugee camp in Greece. She was nearby in Middle Leney. And you can find out more on this story on our website. CBC DOT CA Slash Ai. H phys ed doesn't just teach you how to exercise and Dodge Dodge balls. It taught one windsor teenager how to save a life on Saturday morning. Two months ago Turkey. I ash noticed his father needed help and just two days before the great eleven student had learned. Cpr Gym Class. Turkey is ashes now being hailed for saving his dad's life today Mr Bush who moved with his his family from Syria. Three years ago told the CBC's Windsor Morning About that Saturday morning. On Saturday morning my dad was having a heart attack so I just wake up on like all my brother. My brother are crying. Just go to his bedroom just like find him in the bed and he was lusting his heartbeat. So I have to like I really like A moment I just think what I learned in the class and start to do him the CPR maybe are on everything and what happened after that. The endless came and they told me. Just keep going you doing great and I the thing. I don't do a right because he wasn't like react with me by they do. It doesn't matter if he not breathing all the blood and the bodies moving and that's that's very good for him so when they take into the hospital they was on like three days and like he was not waking up then they tell me a feud on the CPR. Here will be they in fact told you that you save your father is alive. Yeah that's right. How is your father doing now? He's very now great. They put in his buddy a- best maker that's protect him if this had been again and now all of this happened two months ago. Yes that's your father is forty nine years old yesterday. A young man. Yeah like they were surprised like why that's happened to him. But he's these are he. He smokes they say that's one of the reason why this having ten your father still smoke. No he he really liked when he just came out from the hospital. He say I'm not gonNA smoke it once in my life like this is like God save me on. I'm I'm not. I'm not GonNa do it again like this just one chance. That was great eleven student Turkey. I speaking with Tony do set host of Windsor morning today. Mr Bush was given a certificate from Windsor Police for performing CPR when his father had a heart attack As NC level has itself a deal. But it isn't quite the deferred prosecution agreement that threatened to bring down the Trudeau government instead. The engineering and construction giant has agreed to plead guilty to fraud and pay a quarter of a billion dollar. Fine in return. Federal prosecutors will drop five other charges. All stemming from the company's efforts to secure infrastructure contracts works with the former Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi in the early two thousands. The deal comes just days after a Montreal. Jury convicted of former. SNC Executive of of bribing the dictators playboy son and defrauding the Libyan people. Jennifer Quaid is a former federal prosecutor who now teaches law at the University of Ottawa. We reached Professor Quaid in Ottawa. Professor Quaid Essence Lavenham. Made it clear today that it's happy to have a deal that will put this whole business in the past. What's in it for the prosecution well for the prosecution as with any case where there is a settlement you have a a conviction in this case? Without the certainty of a trial and criminal trials are always uncertain and so for them they have the certainty of the settlement. They've obtained a fine and a probation order and they can say look we've come to an end and to a satisfactory and as you know it was a decision to not allow for something called a deferred prosecution agreement about a year ago. that SNC wanted the government was ready to provide that for jody. Wilson rebelled fought. It's very hard as you know. became quite a large political poop storm. So how is the outcome of this any different than had there been the deferred prosecution prosecution agreement for us. NC Levin well that is actually an excellent question. And I've done a little bit of thinking about it in the brief time that we've had and the way I see it right now is that from. SNC's perspective they did pretty much get the same sort of outcome that they would have had from a remediation agreement. which is what we call it in Canada? It's a deferred prosecution agreement in in its basic concept so they are going to avoid ending up being debarred they now have a fine fine amount. That's been determined that they have to pay and I think they always knew they were going to be on the hook for a fine and there's a probation order for three years but to some extent the company always seemed to to communicate that they were more than happy and And very keen to demonstrate that they were changing and that they had changed and that they were willing to do what was necessary so from that perspective they seem to have gotten the same kind of outcome from the prosecution side. I mean the big differences. We have a conviction. It's not just a a remediation remediation. Groom it does not involve a conviction although there is supposed to be an acknowledgement of responsibility and I think the big difference with a deferred prosecution agreement. You would have seen more detail and more information and and those things are set out in writing and there's a judgment that says yes. This is in the public interest. And here's why so we don't get that but okay so if Maliki point of view you can look looks through the entrails of this and see all kinds of differences but from the public point of view. We watch what happened with Jodi. Wilson rebelled fought against the prime minister. There was a damning ethics next report it certainly affected the outcome of the election and had all kinds of repercussions for possibly years to come so from the public. The point of view. Why did we go through all of that? Well yes I think Hindsight does force us to consider what happened. I have to say AH from my perspective that given the factors that were set out in the law for how to determine who's a good candidate for remediation agreement essence was always going to be a stretch. They have several factors that way against them including the extent of involvement of their senior executives. And the fact that they didn't come forward board so they were always going to be a tough sell and it was even harder because they were going to be the first case so from the prosecution's perspective in terms of deciding against negotiating with them. I think there are lots of defendable reasons for why they made that decision as for jody. Wilson rebels decision to support or prosecution service. I think there are also good reasons why she made that decision. Chief among them that the power to issue a directive in a specific prosecution has never been used before and should be reserved for the most exceptional cases. And you know it wasn't clear that that was not exceptional case. So what started out as I think. a well reasoned decision about. Why wouldn't move forward with the prosecution? Did blow up into a scandal in part because they were other people in the government including The Prime Minister himself who who felt that that reasoning You know was not the right reasoning and I think that's the scandal apart it's not really to do with us. And Sea level and per se. The political scandal has to do with how different people people in the government reacted to the way the criminal justice system was handling the case and and I think that that was always going to be highly problematic. You know you cannot manipulate the criminal justice system to come to the outcome. You want new whatever your well intentioned rationale is and I think that's what really got Everyone in trouble double here. They've made it made it clear and has been accepted that they have changed their ways. They've cleaned up their act. Their stock price surging and so for Canadians are looking at this deal and how it went down does it give them a disincentive. Does it give a disincentive for any company. Executive to to act unethically. The pursuit sudafed well. I don't know that we can say with any certainty. What the long term impact particularly the sort of general deterrent effect might be of of particular outcome for essence on others? I will say though that you know all businesses pay some price When they are subject to long periods of uncertainty uncertainty associated with you know a trial or criminal charges? So you know. She has been subjected to some some negative consequences as a function kind of this this long period during which they've been under a cloud of suspicion but in the end the outcome does appear to be relatively good for them and and the stock price results. seems to confirm the impression of investors is is similar. So I I agree with you that That one can be left with a sense of whether this was effective enough. What I hope for in the future is that SNC was maybe an oddball case? But we still have this settlement tool in the criminal code. There are other corruption cases. What are we going to do going forward? And that's what I would really like to hear the government on this. You know. The regime actually needs regulations. It needs guidelines it needs needs probably an enforcement agency and those things would all make it more likely and easier to implement these kinds of deals when they're appropriate and nothing's happened on that that score so if we care about anti corruption enforcement going forward we have to stop talking about a sincere and we have to start talking about what we're GONNA do In the future and you know not just not just people like me but the OCD and others are watching So I think that the the story isn't over on remediation agreements even if we've turned the page on essence loveline physically. It's good to talk to you thank you thank you very much carol. Jennifer Quaid is a professor at the University of Ottawa School of law. We reached her in Ottawa. It's it's no surprise. Take a glance at the shortlist for the Netherlands. Twenty nineteen word of the year. And you'll see many of the words were related to the climate you've got forward-thinking thinking terms like Echo Popu Lima and blaze workin which literally means meet regret too much time at the Chicago Board. And you're liable to feel a profound found sense of Lay's workin but not all the climate related words were so progressive take for instance. Clean met drummer which came in third place translated translated into English. Climate Drummer Means Climate Nag. As in someone who goes on and on about the impending climate apocalypse what a clear-cut drummer summer then in second place you've got the closely related climates. Baby Lar-. Andy word used to describe the growing generation of disobedient children who skip school in order to go to a climate protests what a bunch of clean Matz Baby Lars thankfully. It seems all the clean outs. Baby Lars took some. I'm time off from their incessant clean drumming and came up to vote as well and in the end with a convincing. Forty one point. Eight percent of the vote in the van Dale's great dictionary of the Dutch Language Crowned boomer the word of the year yes boomer as in okay boomer. The now ubiquitous quitting phrasing young person might use to swiftly dismissed. A baby boomers out of touch idea. Like I don't know if they tried to create invoked into existence new words to complain about engaged youth. Were trying to save the planet district sample Good evening. I'm Chris. Houten this holiday season. We're doing some thoughtful re gifting sharing encore broadcasts broadcasts of some of the more notable interviews from over fifty years of as it happens in the coming days were giving you a second chance to hear some of the best episodes of our special archival all series that aired this summer tonight we start by tracing the history of this show and the people who helped shape it. This is as it happened the archive addition and tonight the revolution. Evolution may not have been televised but it was being broadcast on the radio in nineteen sixty eight live and as it happened via a new national current affairs show called as it happens nobody had ever done live current affairs program for two hours from eight to ten in every time zone so we started seven Toronto time and finish at one o'clock in the morning. You've come a long way baby. If you could turn back time in tune in then you wouldn't recognize that very young show and a lot of the major changes started with the first woman to co host. Does it happens. Journalist Barbara from we would like to speak to president obscene as it happened the archive addition radio teaming with personalities allies. Aw when it debuted on November eighteenth nineteen sixty eight as it happens was a very different show than the one you here today i. It was much longer than ninety minutes because it was broadcast live across the country picking up listeners in different time zones as it moved from the east to the West Coast. Let me let me set the scene. There was a producer's whose name was Kerry. WHO started this? This is Harry Brown. One of the shows original co-hosts speaking in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine on the thirtieth anniversary and he's talking to a panel of his successors Nassar's namely fireside. Al Maitland Michael. enright Elizabeth Grey Dennis Trudeau Mary. Lou Finlay and Barbara Budd about landing the CO host Gig opposite Phillip Forsyth. Back in the late sixties. So I got this assignment and I was the only one there with short hair and no love beads and I. I was still smoking at the time and I smoke regular tobacco and sold smoke drum right well. Something like that. So but the programs one night a week Mondays for two hours from eight to ten in every time zone so we'd start at seven Toronto time and finish at one o'clock in the morning. How often do you play bridge when when when the tape was running which isn't very often those days because pretty well? The entire program was live. You've got to spin records to occasionally and it's funny one of the local news. News writers in noticing program said that Phil who was a very hip guy was into all the local latest music. And then there's Harry Brown knows his this Guy Lombardo Harry Brown in nineteen ninety nine will now is the perfect time to bust out the. Ah Retrograde space-time as time reposition or two point. Oh I'm going to set it for a few months after the as it happens launch. Let's do Monday Sunday. July twenty eighth nineteen sixty nine at seven PM and I'm going to set the location for pickle Lake Ontario. Now let's see if we can't get a signal on tune in next. Yup here it is. This is no longer the sound of the Aih Ah our SP two point. Oh this is the opening theme at least for Ontario and Quebec. We can't know what opened the broadcast of the east coast because the tape if it was ever preserved served as unfortunately been loved. Well we're back in the maritimes again but Hello Doom -Tario and Quebec. This is Harry Brown force as it happens six. Hi I'm back in business here. What are we doing this? Our part of the Kennedy Seen German deserters and draft dodgers in Berlin buffalo overload. As in Regina and still Harry Brown was pretty sure Mo- Kaufman's original curried soul kicked off the very first episode of. Ah here he is again in nineteen ninety nine. Well I remember when we started with the Mole Kaufman theme. When did that come in at the beginning right at the beginning and continue for quite a long time when it changed eight taste of course the theme has changed reverted and changed again over the years? A little more on that later right. Now let's dial back to those early days once again again Harry Brown recalling to subsequent as it happens hosts how novel Radio Program as it happens was in the nineteen sixties. That's right nobody had ever done a live current affairs a program where you'd actually allow people use their own lawn less cross country checkup which began in sixty five. What did forget what did doing in live in in terms of goofs and mistakes have getting? I'm people say checkup it was. I think we got out of almost almost safely. You must have. You must have had situations where you up for you. None of them flash back to me Mama Because we would call the people obviously in advance say well okay. We're GONNA be calling you at eight fifteen your time so be ready. And then they'd go well. Well here's a little refresher of how that could go again from July twenty eighth nineteen sixty nine. Here's Harry Browne's Co host Phillip Forsyth back announcing a music number and throwing to reporter Penny Williams for peace on a home for unwed mothers in Edmonton. As you'll hear it was live and as it happens where anything can happen. I little more gain is really being dirty dirty. Willy and Mongo Santamaria Penny Williams has just come into the studio. And I'm not sure why why Penny Williams is here. Well let me tell you frozen. I'm going to be talking to people in Edmonton. There's young lady named Miss Betty Walkie living there are who is I guess looking after and responsible for a host that has five unmarried mothers living in it each of them with a relatively new baby she helps them with. Food helps them through the tough times though says owned by Edmund lawyer and he rents it to them betty yourself. Who's twenty has a four year old son? She lives with her mother. We're also speaking with Mr John Warden. Who owns a home right next door to the house? These unmarried mothers living he and a number of the other. The people living area are not happy that the girls should be there. I'd like to start with Mr Warden Mr Warden would. Would you please tell me your reaction when you found out that was going to be a group of unmarried mothers living next door to you in Edmonton John was stunned. Actually I mean just came on like a ton of bricks Just about how I how I felt him. How the neighborhood the heartfelt lie gather that you objected to it as odd right verse? Thirty one name Eh to keep this one out missile man that the whole thing hinges on whether these goto comps Thompson. Cute one family if they do physical and Convince who will. Then there's talking we can do. They have been given one years president. Object to there being there Mr Warden well a bit. How can five girls after property? Have you found that they are troublesome neighbors have not known it was mentioned to me as well and this was by Dr Grant a lawyer who represented one of the ratepayers objected to their presence that They felt that these girls living in the neighbourhood would mean that property values would drop. Are you afraid of this as well. Suppose that you were looking looking for a house and when you went to look at it you ask who is next door and told you five hundred unmarried mothers. Would you buy the house. No I don't think I would. Now we have on the line as well Miss Betty Walkie whom I think you've heard of before and perhaps heard around Edmonton. She has has been helping these young mothers. She's a mother herself. Yes Day walking all right fine okay. We'll let miss walkie speak for a moment and you put your wife on the telephone. I Okay Okay Miss Walker. You heard what Mr Warden had to say How do you react? The first objection seems to be that the girls aren't really one family relations but The girl in our window MRS warden. Milwaukee is speaking moments. Would you just stay on the line and listen and then you join the conversation in a minute I wanna know what what is this all about. Anyway why are we being thrown about this as well as I explained your husband because weird heard about this issue that had been raised in Edmonton and he agreed to come on the line and explain why some of the people who lived in the neighborhood objected to the girls. Living there in Milwaukee agreed to come on the show and explain why why they were there the purpose and the purpose of the House. What is this on the air? Now it's on the air at the moment. Run the air in the in the Maritimes and sorry in Ontario Quebec and and Later when we'll be on arrowed West because we're on air between eight and ten in each region on the air and he doesn't want to be involved organised. I am sorry I told him at the time that it was the CBC and the flu would be putting it on air. But he didn't know it was on the air you're not regarding. No he doesn't he didn't know what was on the air. I'm sorry Ma'am I did. Tell him perhaps he didn't hear me. Then because okay well then shall. I just go on with his walkie. If you'd rather not take part rather not take card all right. Thank you very much all right. Good night from July twenty eighth nineteen sixty nine reporter Penny Williams on as it happens making the best of a guest whose wife cut his interview. Short you're listening to as it happened the archive additional tonight. Another installment of a feature. We're calling that was then. This is now where we compare and contrast the early days as it happens to the show. Today tonight's episode revisits visit the early days of the program and how it was shaped into the as it happens you hear happening within months of its launch as as it happens merged with another show hosted by a guy named Peter Zaslavsky. Here's Harry Brown again. In one thousand nine hundred nine speaking to that panel of former as it happens hosts now we we're doing has it happens and then radio. Friday came along three four. Maybe six months later yup identical format on Fridays. Obviously and Peter and I think Maggie Mars. We're doing the Friday's don't remember that. Peter did for a show called this country in the morning and and Barbara from took over Peter's job on Friday Nights Barbara from has arrived and as it happens is finally beginning to sound a little more like the show we know today but with a rather complex rotation of hosts Harry Brown Bill Ronald Size. Strange and Barbara. Oh and we still haven't quite settled on a theme yet. I'm Harry Brown and this is as it happens as a whole brand new theme and and kind of a brand new show not really. We've got five nights a week with all kinds of people first of all Barbara from us our hosta host tonight. Do you like being a host a hostess. Oh I don't mind being okay that's true. It's a good thing to call him a house from now on. This is probably a you want to be a host for probably a very crowded studio for you two guys because you've been here for how long together and now it's like you spawned size. Strange in me. Hi Hi how are you. who went up the river? We'll find that yes is going to be around to And this is our whole package. The Long Barbara from we're alternating Monday Wednesday Friday Tuesday Thursday. And there's some little man that's just going to do that. I think at the CBC. Just while I trust somebody Can keep track of it all Barbara. Because I guess Harry and I sort of playing an ear by by ear day by day and the same applies to you bill tomorrow night right and the bar would be on Wednesday night and then I'll be on Thursday night and she'll be on Friday night and the next week it'll be. It'll be me Monday Wednesday Friday and so on sound confusing USA USA twenty four hours time. The secret is that listen every every night Monday through Friday. Pick up the world at six. Actually the the idea is leave your radio on. CVC Right now and leave it there so you don't forget right and it'll be interesting entertaining and informative so stay with us and our listeners. In Newfoundland man in the maritimes have now been joined by beautiful beckoned Ontario and eatable Ronald and gorgeous. Thank you very much and music. A cavalcade eight of hosts in October of Nineteen seventy-one but one would go on to define the show during the next formative decade Barbara from. Here's Harry Brown. Fiber came into SUV into radio. Free Friday and then when the programs merged We had a bill Ronald and Barbara and size. Strange and myself will do show every tonight and so you leave home. Not Knowing who. You're going to work with bill or Barbara and let me tell you they were somewhat different. The S. I'm sure you're all surprised at that. But Barbara came into the program and then she was above all things that can summit a journalist. She was meticulous than hardworking. And and and amazing zing. I mean she had a beguiling kind of tone on the air that would lead the most unsuspecting victim to say the most outrageous things is on the radio sort of an attractive Mike Wallace. Well yes yes. Does that statehouse in Entebbe. We would like to speak to president resident on mean Mr Ballard I on how are you all right hockey game one to what's married near edition. That's right Herald. One to somebody on that can handle this update. Are you a man or woman. I'm a man Dan. Are you a man woman. Well then why did you ask. Reflect a woman spear I see and you I WANNA see one thirty. And that's all incidental the dental. Can we talk to any of the people you're holding there Yeah okay I got. I'll get something. I have another question for you. Good talking to you. I'm talking to Dick so when you learn to mind Joan business let me talk to take. It'll be fine by fiber. Yeah that's not like him like him at all. He's upset about something he is. And I'm so I I must say I must express dismay his behalf. We call him back up. you're very very bad reporters. You're very bad. Put me onto somebody else. You are one of the worst Philly we are. You were very rude. You're very IMF perceptive you very ignorant Your technique is just crude. They don't have any now. Put me onto somebody else. I meant miss good I met. I'm afraid who do you think you're talking to Margaret Trudeau. That's the best interview I've done in a year. This great salty you tell. I love her by in just a few highlights from Barbara from decade long tenure behind the as it happens Mike as co host. Harry Brown acknowledged Barbara had a knack for eliciting. The unexpected from her guest but not long after she joined the show. She revealed some life changing news about herself that she never discussed on air and only ever shared with a few people. One of the most touching moments in my life came when Barbara took me into one of the studios in about nine thousand nine hundred seventy two. WHO and said look? I got something I want you to know about. I'd I'd prefer you didn't mention that to anybody else. But she said I've just come from the doctor's office and the I've got leukemia. Well what do you say I. What does that mean well? She said they're gonNa give me some pills. For treatment. Matter fact she described one of the pillars of being a derivative from mustard gas which was used in World War One and she said I really don't know except because she looked fine she looked great. You know she said I probably won't see my grandchildren and she was then about thirty seven thirty eight years old and I was absolutely flabbergasted first of all that she would tell me about it meant that she had some trust in the way I would deal with the fact that AH was there was was beyond belief dreadful and from there on. She seemed to be prepared to forget it. And because she took it up and off we went and did the show and I don't think she ever mentioned it again. Barbara for those who listening. Who Don't know did die in in Nineteen ninety-two she had twenty more years and happily at least she did see her grandchild she did? She did see some of them former as it happens. Hosts Harry Brown and Mary Lou. Finlay speaking about Barbara from leukemia. Diagnosis Barbara from died on March twenty. Sixth Nineteen Ninety two. She was fifty four last. Cheer as part of Our fiftieth anniversary celebrations. Her Son David from now a senior editor at the Atlantic joined Carol in the as it happens studio an offer. These insights into her illness is one of the key things to keep in mind. This is something I did not know exactly at the time that occurred. She got the diagnosis of her illness. In nineteen seventy four so three years into the program and and she lived for seventeen more years but she did not get a diagnosis of seventeen years to live. She got a diagnosis. You have two years to live eight times and so even though my sister and I were unaware for some time of that news that it the weight of it was was there but she we. We didn't know I mean I didn't know many people in the CBC didn't until well into her her sickness. She hid it so she's very private. Her energy never flagged I remember. This energy was amazing. She did other things too she. She's involved in our collection and gardening and philanthropic work and she raise children and she had a marriage and No issue she was amazed she would crash at the end of the day. She it'll just be you know like Going off the energy cliff from should just be wiped out. She would not be able to continue at her weekends. We're we're very very calm but yeah it was. It was a heavy heavy presence. Barbara signed off as the CO host of as it happens on May Twentieth Nineteen eighty-one there was no fanfare not even mentioned of her departure. Here's a Co host and other. AIH Luminary the late. Al Maitland explaining why during her nine years at as it happens Barbara said Hello and goodbye to some twenty thousand interview guests. It's one of the sad ironies that when she left as it happens she didn't get to say a proper goodbye. Her last day on the job was May Twentieth Nineteen ninety-one the next morning the CBC was shut down by a strike. Then she went on summer vacation then she accepted the offer to work at the Journal. She and her husband Murray came to my house to tell me about her new job so I wouldn't hear it from someone else or read in the paper. We talked a little and and cried a little and gave each other a hug. There's no one like her not then not now and because so much of her is still with us. We probably never will say that good by not really. That was Al Maitland. Speaking on as as it happens the day Barbara from died in nineteen ninety two. And here's his Co host Michael android speaking that same night. She carried the burden of the cancer in her blood for eighteen years. Ears never talking about it except closest friends never appearing to be in any sense physically vulnerable from was a better journalist than most of us simply because she was a good person she knew what was right and she knew what was wrong. She operated her journalism and her life from a body of cherished and well-honed beliefs in an age when many journalists don't know what they believe from stood out. She came to the attention of most of us in her nine years as host of as it happens here in the studio her partner and friend for most of that time was my partner and friend. Alan Maitland in that time she changed changed the character of the radio interview forever. We all do now. What she started? Then journalist and host Barbara from set the standard at as it happens by the time of her departure. The show had gone from a two hour. Live program rolled rolled out across the country over six hours to the one. You here today. A ninety minute broadcast that usually stays the same across all time zones at least one thing remained in in play though the theme. Does this music ring a bell. It's a rarely aired. Melancholy rendition of Kaufman's curried soul the theme. It took a while for as it happens to settle John. And we've toyed with different versions of that theme over the years some more earnest than others across the country and around the world through the CBC radio. Network and shortwave save. This is as it happens. A one two three four Hello I'm Barbara Frowns. Sure are come back sooner or later. How do you like like the new theme music we set up for you? This isn't going to be permanent. I hope it could be it. Could world on shortwave. This is at it happens Hello I'm Elizabeth Grey good evening. I'm Alan Mason good evening. I'm Alan Maitland. This is as it happens tonight after much. Curried soul searching throughout the eighties and early nineties as it happens eventually reverted to mow Coffman's original nineteen sixty nine recording. Which incidentally you hear you're opening episodes of as it happened and for good reason? Here's Barbara Budd whose tenure as host began in Nineteen ninety-three asking original host Harry Brown about about the themes origins his reply prompts. A discussion from eighties hosts Michael was with gray and Dennis Trudeau about the changes that occurred during that decade and I remember when we started with Demo Kaufman theme. When did that come in at the beginning right at the beginning and for a long time when it changed tampered yeah old? That was when I saw a couple of times during change mm seen go back to the original. It's a beautiful piece of music. Kauffman was an incredibly talented and so we did go back to the original for twenty years until two thousand thirteen when with some trepidation as it happens debuted. A remixed curried soul two to point zero by Montreal based musician. so-called right before we premiered that theme we called up Mos- widow Giselle Kaufman and our current host. Carol off asked Ms Kaufmann what she thought when we proposed host a new version of curried soul kind of shocked and upset. Have you changed it all and you're thinking about this plan. Oh definitely then I heard the new one. Oh wow wonderful. I mean Josh Dulken. One thing one for to the table It's unbelievable Komo is still there and he claimed wonderful. I love it but with most think of this change. Do you think I think when he would have gotten the message that he wanted to change is probably would have said okay. I'm sitting down and writing riding it. What I think he was very honored to have? Music played every night And you think his spirit comes soon the new song definitely. Yeah what do you think he would think of the new version of the song. I think he would approve of breath. Josh loaded and acknowledged his talent. Well we hope he would approve. We need we. We need his blessing through you. Okay I think the wonderful how to find the Lazy Josh is of course Josh. Dolgin also known as so-called. We rang up right after Giselle. So now we just heard Giselle Kaufman. Say that You did a wonderful job on this arrangement really. Is that a relief to hear. ooh Can imagine what's it GonNa be like for you to turn on acid happens or non. CBC and hear your version of curried soul old played at the beginning of the show on probably the greatest honor. I've ever been been given as a Canadian artist. So yeah that's a good start and that remix will remain our theme for some time to come but if we were to switch it up again we'd probably probably go with this version which one are. Aih Fiftieth Anniversary theme Song Challenge. We're going to close with that rendition of our opening as reimagined thousand by Maximilian and Theodore Aoki's of Hamilton Ontario with apted has a duo for cello For More C._B._C.. PODCASTS Goto C._B._C.. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.

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How To Heal From Toxic Mold With Dr. Rajka  Milanovic Galbraith

Self Made Man

54:15 min | 4 months ago

How To Heal From Toxic Mold With Dr. Rajka Milanovic Galbraith

"Welcome back to the mike dillard. Podcast we help entrepreneurs like you get the knowledge and skills that you need it to bring your dreams to live so there's a very good chance that you've heard my mold story over the past few years and how it completely turned my life upside down and some very very dramatic ways but what you probably don't know as just how big of a problem toxic mold is becoming. It's estimated that fifty percent of all homes are currently infected with mold and that twenty five percent of the global food supply contains poisonous micro-toxins that molds produce some of the foods that contain the highest levels of topic. Mold are items that you're probably eating on a daily basis. Not as coffee and any type of nut so if you're having your daily starbucks if you're drinking coffee or any kind of protein bar that contains peanuts almonds any kind of nuts. You are most likely ingesting micro-toxins now most people's bodies can clear these toxins out successfully as long as their exposure level doesn't exceed their bodies capacity. Which is what happened. In my case if your exposure level gets too high well it's going to overcome your body's detox system and that's when things quickly take a turn for the worse now what's really interesting. Is that one in four. Americans are missing the gene that allows their body to eliminate micro-toxins altogether and that can lead to all kinds of problems including chronic inflammation. Autoimmune diseases arthritis. Asthma skin rashes. Chronic coughing and bronchitis adrenal fatigue brain fog memory loss low libido depression and all kinds of other neurological problems. In fact toxic. Mold is now considered far more dangerous than his specis or lead based paints. But you don't see toxic legal cases popping up left and right like you did in those industries because it made them nearly impossible to prosecute why while there's two primary reasons i is that mold is a naturally occurring part of the earth's biosphere rather than a man made substance that was produced by a company. Second is because it would literally destroy the united states real estate and insurance markets overnight. You can imagine what it would look like for a lawyer to walk into any building in the country with a simple multitask which is going to provide a positive result in at least fifty percent of the buildings in the country and then they sue the builder or the owner will the economic kavak. That would ensue would be unimaginable. Every building downtown in any kind of city especially along the coast or southern america would have you know yellow biohazard tape put up and be closed off. It would be an unprecedented event so with that in mind. There is a very good chance that you are somebody in. Your family is currently suffering from health challenges that are a result of mold exposure and they have absolutely no idea that that's the case. Now i would not wish what i went through on my worst enemy so this podcast interview is one way. I can share my experience with others in order to give them hope and the resources that they need in order to heal and get their lives back to help me do that. I'm joined by one of the many amazing doctors that have had a chance to work with during my journey. Doctor right up milanovic galbraith. So dr reiko is board-certified functional medicine doctor. And she specializes in helping toxic mold patients and she's very very good at what she does so. Please help me. Welcome dr ikea as we dive into this fascinating topic. That is going to impact somebody in your life in in your family right now. Here today dr ikea. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Thanks for that lovely introduction. I am so excited to be here and to spread my message. Thank you so much for joining us today. You are one of a handful of superhero physicians who've shown up in my life over the last three years that have helped me really heal and recover from this toxic mold. Infection that caused a brain injury in a bunch of nervous system dysfunction in all kinds of stuff and this has been the hardest thing that i've ever been through but also one of the most enlightening and empowering believe believe it or not in the work that it has forced me to do. And i wanted to have you on the show today because this is a problem that has popping up in more and more people's lives my friend. James went through a serious mold infection. After he heard about mine he had a bleeding brain. He was literally on his way to his deathbed it was very scary time and i've probably had three or four other friends in the last few months end up with the same type of serious illness to where it got to the point where they having significant physical symptoms and all of them have had to move their homes and leave their homes at least once and so. This is an area of your specialty. You've been helping me come through this process as well so i wanted you to come on the show. Fill the world on what's going on in case they're dealing with an issue like this or might have a family member or a friend and usually most people have no idea what the causes. Most traditional doctors have no idea what the causes. It goes undiagnosed and it leads to all kinds of problems so again. Thank you for coming on today. And if you can start by maybe sharing a little bit about your story and how you ended up becoming an expert in this area. I think that would be awesome again. Mike i am so super thrilled to share this so that people can recognize symptoms and get help sooner rather than later before it leads to such dysfunction. Like you yourself in some of your friends have experienced. So i like most children at three dreams and like the first dream was to be a doctor really from the age of five and the second dream was to want to get married and the third dream was to have children and i know sounds a little bit jerry typical but i had those dreams and i didn't even care what order they came in and i had so much dysfunction in my life from a medical standpoint that almost never achieved all those dreams and all the while i didn't finish residency just a couple months shy because i was so fatigued i just fell asleep standing up at rock concerts on dates. And can you imagine what a second date i wouldn't. Hey i wasn't asked out again and made it through with the help of mentor. Who i just marched up to his office when i just had it. I couldn't physically with endure it any longer. And was more than what my colleagues were experiencing and he somehow push me through cheerleaders and refused to take my resignation. And i made it through and then i also made it through and ended up getting married because i could stay away with a little bit of new found energy and then unfortunately than we hit. All kinds of roadblocks from infertility endometriosis wasn't just with me. It was with patience and the most common symptom that crossed my door that i could not even begin to treat was fatigue let alone brain fog and even weight gain and people were told it was normal for aging. It was all in their head or worse yet. They were prescribed anti-depressants than i know. Because i was one of those doctors. So he's always on the search and having overcome all these symptoms. I found the field of functional medicine by finding an article on glutathione believe it or not and described all of my patients that could never diagnosed and so i did. The deep dive and functional medicine targets the root causes of diseases for the listeners. That don't know and then really gets to the root so you're not just slapping drugs at the end. A symptom like headache. We'll give you this migraine medicine really pills it away. So they don't even happen in the first place but what was interesting as i finally found doctors. That would listen to me about my thyroid and treated my infertility naturally but every decade something else would crop up and it was. Because i hadn't done the deeper dive in trying to cure myself and those that twenty percent of patients that just a general functional medicine approach couldn't cure reverse or he'll i just kept getting deeper and deeper in one area started really doing. The deep dive is a neutral genetics. And that's bypassing defective genes with nutrients and really well versed and added that to my tool bag. Got a cure an autism. And i thought wow this is really powerful stuff. But it wasn't just that alone it was whole approach and then eventually even was passionate about performance. And so i managed to deal with a lot of high level high-performing people who get burnt out and recover them. It happens again and again. And i was fascinated by brain function and so i did a training in reversing dementia and the third sub type of dementia 's mycotoxin or mold illness. And that's where. I started doing the deep dive. And what made me really sad was. It was much easier to reverse when it was brain fog or mild loss of memory. We caught mild cognitive. Climb much much harder if there was already full blown diagnosis of alzheimer's and it was very difficult because i was then dealing with dido parents of or at the l. adult child of the patient that had to manage not only their own children but their parents so it was really hard to navigate in heart and they throw in the towel. And that's what really has inspired me after seeing that is to catch earlier and i've been educating the masses in force over the last couple of years the and this is new territory i know that you work with an entire team or mastermind group of of other doctors who a really pioneering these health issues and how to fix them. Because they're so little that's known or not. The average doctor is aware of you. Talk a little bit about that as you said. It's there's not much data on their literature as far as how to treat their certainly data in the literature that mold illness causes dementia. There's articles that have been publishing several years ago. At least in. We all know that when algae blooms occur people can get sick. That's a form of biotoxin illness. Get very sick when exposal close on whole beaches when it happens and so there's a forty of us that have banded together to share cases on a daily basis. And we have neil nathan dr neil nathan who wrote the book toxic at the helm and everyone brings their unique perspective to the plate so that we can continuously improve and how the best practices in place. According to what we're seeing in our patient population is really been a a fabulous way to continue to move the needle for more and more of our patients. What are some of the primary symptoms that would go undiagnosed or just be overlooked by traditional medical doctor. That is a assigned to you that it could be an environmental base toxin. More biotoxin of some kind. The top three. I see you think about the top three. That present with any damage to the mitochondria are fatigue. And that can be everything from just that low lying fatigue to really profound. Can't get up off the couch to brain fog or memory issues and then the third is pain. So just having chronic pains that come and go or besley fluctuate from joined to muscle and so forth. But they're so many. The other ones. I commonly see in the office star thyroid imbalances that are not responsive to usual measures even with medications. You can't get them into balance so we reserve that for when someone really is overtly hypothyroid and you just can't get them respond or other hormonal imbalances so low testosterone in men or high estrogen. Women that says a direct result and then also see you resistant weight loss. So you've tried every means and i do have a special mold Diet that us that's effective. But you definitely want to remediate and bind entreat the all but really those are tops on my list and i know others have seen a ton. There's always a low level of anxiety that kind of presents whether the person discloses it or not can be depression as well and beyond those are really the the tops on my list. And if you if you look through all the list of malta's symptoms that can happen. It's really variable and it can be almost anything and i say the key thing to think about is when your regular doctor doesn't know and if you go to a functional medicine doctor who is well trained and you don't respond in the normal fashion improving. You have to think that something is missing in that something is. There's a fair chance that it is mold underlying. Yeah you named a ton of my symptoms. Extreme fatigue for some reason the the hardest strangest symptom that i've had is that inability to fall asleep. I haven't i've only met one other person. His ever had that same symptom and we still don't really know what caused that. Maybe you can shed some light on that. I know where i know. Were waiting to to see some genetic stuff but extreme anxiety extreme sense of fear or constant fighter flight twenty four seven my body was just dumping adrenaline cortisol day and night. Severe memory loss where i would walk out the door. Forget my keys. Come back in the house and seconds later and could remember why came back in the house. I walked back outside. Realize aleph mckee's come back in can't remember why came back in the door couldn't remember anybody's name. Even people have known for ten plus years. Gosh what else. Very extreme adrenal fatigue and those symptoms went on. I would say and very degrees for two and a half years until we moved into a brand new construction home about four months ago. And so that was the biggie. In the last twelve months we moved six times in each of those times. We thought we were moving into a clean environment. And i would maybe be a little bit of improvement. And then i would hit a ceiling in that would be it and so we're like okay. We've just got to get to a place where we know is cleaned from the get go and they keep it that way and so. That's what we did. We bought a new construction home. Put a bunch of technology into the ac system to keep the humidity levels really low and to sterilize the air and ever since that. I've seen a huge improvement. Energy levels have gotten better. Memory has gotten better. Sleep has gotten better but the falling asleep is still an. It's still a challenge but it's definitely moving in the right direction and so can you tell us know from the very beginning. What happens to someone like myself. Who goes through a severe reaction to a toxic mold exposure. Why did that happen with me. Versus somebody else in y. Can i now smell mold. Whenever i walk into a house or room when most people are just completely unaffected by. It's still yeah. Sure and this is. The kicker is at thirty percent up to thirty percent of population has a genetic sensitivity to mold in it. specifically micro-toxins is at a part of the mole that causes the on us that we inhale and so that seventy percent could live in the same old environment that you're in and have no troubles whatsoever and are not sensitive unless they were exposed to a really large dose than they may have some mild symptomology. So that's the first thing is that you're genetically sensitive and then you're in the environment for period of time and the longer end sicker. You can get 'em when you get this such a strong response. There is something that occurs. Were your limbic system becomes dysfunctional and as a result of when your body is exposed to a threat the normal processes that the cell of specifically the mighty connor which makes her energy shuts down so it can preserve energy in. Say for example. For when there's a pathogen like a virus that comes in so doesn't hijack your own injured energy-making material and so shuts down and that's a normal process for period of time till the threat passes and then it will recycle into where the mitochondria become active again but for some unknown reason a portion of patients stay in the cell danger response so then the only thing only way the body knows to response as as if it's under constant threats of that constant fighter flight you fell and then being now particularly sensitive the other symptoms. You'll see that nothing. The patient doesn't get better no matter what we throw at them and in fact in they'll get really made worse so the first thing to do when someone's though so sick is to regulate the limbic system and shut off that sell danger response so then you can get the healing to occur. And how do you do that. That's a great question. There are variety of modalities. And i'll start from my most favorite. And i'd say the longer you've been sick the more aggressive you wanna be so you may even wanna use two or three of these are the first is something. Called dynamic. Neural retraining system minutes. Dnr aston what you'll hear. When someone's particularly sensitive it may be hard to do a training and it was created by a woman. Manny hopper who herself was exposed to a bunch of chemicals as well as mold and then just became head a heightened response to everything and ironically training was as a social worker and she is learning how to recover people from trauma and so she developed the suny technique and some of the results. We've seen have been nothing. Shy of amazing. I had the young man you reference james. Your friend implemented within zero go-getter with a weekend and said within the first week he noted a fifty percent improvement in fatigue symptoms and that was not even adding the rest of the regimen that implemented which led to an eighty percent improvement and four short week so he felt like he got hit a new lease on life and his fiancee was crying in the appointment. She couldn't believe how functionally was and what that meant to them as a young couple and the second rope you real quick before we dive into number two. What is this having. Nfl on when it comes to the mitochondria. Because that's what's happening. It's signaling the cells that hey the threat is gone. You can relax now and dedicate your functionality back to normal energy production. Is that what's happening. That's exactly right so it's taking it from a turned off mitochondria and it's turning it back on again so that is so you're able to produce. Atp which is energy and you want to if you guys want to have your minds blown by this. I have gone through. Annie's i need to go back in and dedicate more time to doing it. Because i think that's going to be really helpful to me but this is just using the power of the mind. This is literally with a. There's the brain fog right. There kicking in a. I can't remember. It's a copywriting term. We're gonna stop in and basically grab your brain's attention and then redirect it with some positive affirmation steps over and over and over again throughout the day and it's literally just using the power of nlp words and your brain power to heal yourself. And as you've mentioned her success stories that she has thousands average just absolutely unbelievable. Yeah isn't that amazing. And we always say what you think and feel affects how you think and feel all the way down to that cellular level so it is pretty powerful stuff and in fact we have when we screen patients that come through the clinic. We asked them. How open are you to utilizing all modalities for healing. And if they're not open to even trying to see themselves. Well it's okay if someone comes in and they've been sick for two or three years and they say they don't see it but they want it different story because you they won't get better so they can't even think about that. Maybe sometimes i'll send them out doing the dnr s and we revisit that so we never want to give up on anyone but you definitely have to have them in their right mind frame or they'll be working against everything we do. Roy yeah very powerful. And i'm glad that you've also chimed in to to agree because it is. It's a huge part of the healing journey. It's not just the physical it's mind body. Spirit whole nine yards. What was the second modality that you use. So there's frequency specific microcurrent. And so it's a modality that delivers impulses. And i believe it's too quiet the inflammation and we don't have a ton. I'm seeking out practitioners here locally and so it's a device that you utilize i think you can even rent them from doctors offices and it's over a period of time and not only for pain but for the neuro logic symptoms that asians with mold have and so then it allows them to turn those mitochondria back on. I've used a little less of that but some of my pain. Patients have gotten great responses with that who've had underlying mold the third is cranial sake. Therapy so just aligning the same. It's the mind body connection getting anything to function. The fourth is brain happen ironically. Before i knew that it helped you regulate your limbic system. I started using it. Last last good friday so year and a bit ago and i used it because i was largely using hearth which i do teach to each and every one of my patients that doesn't already know it and i sent him out with sensors and a colleague said she preferred it and i said why she had what she called. Monkey mind could never get out of fighter flight and it helped her and i use it for a full month. They're twenty minute recordings you. Listen to and it's a headset with flashing lights. You keep your light. Your eyes closed when you have a headset on and i was like. Wow my energy just went ally and i already feel like i have ten she. I've continued to use it so it can't be all bad in. Which system was that. It's called brain tap in the websites named after the device. So just brain tap t a p dot com. So it's just and what we found collectively as a group. Is that the longer you've had dysfunction the better off you're going to be if you use it and if you can you couple a couple modalities together you're even better off and then even to continue to use it long term a year or two or more so beyond when you're feeling particularly when it's only mole but i screen everyone that comes through with the adverse childhood event questionnaire and it looks at trauma that was real or perceived during childhood because that will chronically. Dysregulation your cortisol response for life unless address. So that's msa again. Childhood trauma chronically. Dysregulates your cortisol response for life unless addressed and it's been directly correlated associated with developing chronic diseases and adulthood. So that's why it's embedded right in my questionnaire. People don't even know masking but we'll address it and for trauma different modalities you can use. But the dnr s does work as well. I mean that was the biggest blessing that came from this experience for me as for the first five months we. we didn't know it was mold. I just thought it was frankly having a nervous breakdown. And so i spent the next year and a half doing every form of therapy possible from trans cranial magnetic to em dr to traditional talk therapy to md mda therapy different plant medicines. Gosh hypnotherapy you name it and that was unintended approach with the benefits that came from that were a mate like life changing and so that was really the biggest blessing that came out of this experience for me and i can absolutely see how not dealing with the baggage that you've been carrying especially when you hit around the age of forty just starts to become too much for the body or the to to continue to carry and so one hundred percent agreed with way shared. Yeah again i just. I want to honor the journey. You've had it sounds like it quite the journey but also that you were able to find the good in it and allow you to be resilient than for life when cheerfully recovered so say. It's a blessing agreed. Agreed and can you talk a little bit about what sirs is. Because i think that's maybe the overall umbrella piece of all of this and associates for chronic inflammation response syndrome. Can you talk a little bit about what that is. Because i think that's affecting the town of people to and they can come from mold or chemicals are all kinds of other sources. Yeah so sirs. The chronic inflammatory response as you've described as any biotech sonoma's said the top two would be mold and lime in it starts by causing an immune dysfunction and so which quickly leads to just inflammation so it's just a dysregulates responsibly. Distributor response that occurs in the brain. At then it's a occurring body wide. And that's why the dmz you can experience are so vast from skin rashes to your anxiety to fatigue and so on and so forth and it really is. I not only use the approach of quieting or or restoring the limbic system. But then i look at quieting inflammation while we're addressing and removing the trigger. Which is the mold or the line. so i have various agents. I used to quite inflammation because view. Don't get in there and do that. Then you do your patients at disservice and it's really the right order to treat as well. That's what i've come to find with. Malware dozens of calls and the pats several months dozens and dozens or patients will say hey i Was seen here. And i'm either no better or they're worse than i briefly review and i say there is a right order and i never comment that. You gotta be really careful so there's not only a right order. There's also a right speed in remediating a person's body from the mold. So if you do too quick you can make them fast. And in this case it's not a sprint to the finish as the only time in life you don't wanna be. I just wanna you wanna go through the the steps in and a very gradual fashion. So it's it's like gently easing into a cold tabatha rather than plunging in because you can abortion you. What i find is when people have setbacks if the quicker you can catch him the less lingering they'll be but have a setback and you don't know about it so i carefully guide all patients and say hey we need you to let me know if anything changes and if you regress with any of the saps you stop let me know and then we don't restart for period of time and so could be a week or maybe a couple of weeks and then when you do a restart you have to go even slower than when you so with safer binding them an old and that is the the single hardest part about this whole thing is the time that it takes because all you wanna do when you're feeling spat is to get better as fast as possible and so the patients required as probably been one of the single biggest lessons that i've had to learn because you just have to surrender to your body's schedule rather than your brain and in what you want to be in win and that's been super super challenging when it comes to this but it's a lesson that i've had to learn and it's just a part of the process so can you walk us through what healing from a toxic mold. Infection looks like from the different steps. Yeah sure so one. So we'll start for once a month been diagnosed versus to recognize that any almost any symptom. That's not responding can be mauldin than actually getting the definitive diagnosis. So in my world and in the colleagues that i- banded with we choose to use the mycotoxin tests with which is a urine test looking for the excretion of mole. Toxins so that then once you have your diagnosis. We have to ascertain some own in olympic system dysfunctional response. And do they require something. Like john are s and you really wanna get that on board for a period of time and the sooner the better so once we engage with someone in our our waiting time to get in as a couple of months or more we will have people start it before they even see us and we actually had one patient turnaround and almost cancelled appointment. She said i'm one hundred percent better. I don't think. I need to see you. And i said oh but the mold unfortunately doesn't clear on its own even if you're out of the environment and so you quite dilemmas. Limbic system response down. Then you on identify were that sources like you said you got so much better when you're out of the environment and the number probably one or two mistakes that issues make is they Don't work on the limbic system. And then they're they're not able to or don't appreciate the importance of getting out of a multi environment. It's testing the home and testing the workplace. Potentially even the car and finding a way around it. So i'm i've been collaborating with building. Biologists i just did a six hour interview with one in my home and we did. We revered the four top things that will keep you unhealthy in your home and mold is only one of them believe it or not and the i know there's so much more to it and if you're sensitive to mold there's chance sensitive to other things like electricity endure electric city and even gases but it may be even temporarily renting an rv or buying an rv. So there's one building biologists that has a whole protocol on her website on Camp setting up a campsite. And so that i know those are drastic measures but it will make you better the quickest by getting our assignment that was on the that was on the options list. If we couldn't find a house. I was ready to. Just get an rv and move into that. Because at least here in texas. I'd say eighty percent of the houses here have mold and a third more than a couple of years. Old is just in the air and the environment. So it'll just naturally make its way into the ac system. But yeah. I was at that point so i totally get it. Yeah and some people can't move out and so then ha you contemporaries it. You can use a good filter. It'll help for a while. But i always say it's like like you going in with your heart attack in the surgeon putting in the stints but then or doing your bypass surgery but then you continue to eat. Mcdonald's it's like it only holds for so long or you can only get so much improvement and once as while you're doing that i never delay binders of someone's in the right limbic system functioning state and they're exploring remediation. I will start gentle binders and preparing the body. So there are various agents. We use that are targeted to the molds. We see so some are better than others. One examples okra toxin is better bound by charcoal followed by coast. I remain so if you don't have ochre toxin you might reach for something else and is really starting low and then going slow and then layering them on and so we always find the mold. I always will gently support the middle condo function get someone's function in an energy yellow up. They definitely appreciate that. If there's inflammation. I may even target inflammation for two to four weeks before i start binders. And that would be pain. Or if you're seeing the brain inflammation like you had going on. Then we could do agents. I really like resolven. They are the breakdown products of fila. So mega three fatty acids when someone is so inflamed that conversion from fish oil to resolve in happens less well and so i just bypassed that step temporarily to help them out until we can get them formation. Quieted tumor is a potent anti inflammatory. It's also detoxifying. Once we have binders on board then you have to go after where the mold colonize is so. It's pretty sneaky. It'll colonized your gastrointestinal tracts. So your gut as well as your nasal passages for the got. We do have testing we can do to see is it just smoked or is it yeast or is it both and then you can really target treatment and then typically Treating the nasal passageways the longest and the whole important part is at. You are treating for three months all three areas binding. The mole treating the gastrointestinal tract and sinus for three months beyond the time that the mold toxins are cleared out of the urine. So it doesn't come back because if you just bind the mold and it's been a in your gut nasal passageways when you stop the binders even. If you're out of a multi home it'll just all come back and you don't want to remember what you just said. Hey it's a long process. I tell patients one to two years from start to finish just so they know what to expect because if they're not ready then they're not ready and they don't want to waste your time or money because it can be a lengthy process and an expensive one. I'm sure you've noticed. Yeah i would say that. My healing process didn't start until i got to a clean environment so account my day one almost starting four months ago. I clearly made progress. So i expect. I'll be probably good to go within nine months to twelve months tops but getting into a clean environment really it was the start of my recovery about is just the most important piece of the puzzle in my opinion and then yeah talk about expensive. None of this stuff is covered by insurance. They don't recognize it as an actual illness for insurance purposes and between all of the tests that you're constantly doing blood tests urine tests everything especially in the beginning. That's probably three thousand dollars to five thousand dollars and tests. And then i would say one to two thousand dollars a month in supplements and then the tasks you're doing probably once a quarter and i'll have to. I'll have to go back in and talk to my accountant bookkeeper and put together a list of everything you've done. And then you're buying air purifiers and you're buying anything and everything that can help. I would venture to say that i've spent at least one hundred thousand dollars in the last two and a half years to just support this peeling process. How even had to buy new house if you count that significantly more expensive. But that's just unbelievable in and it's also a bit disheartening. Which is going to lead us into what you're working on now. A lot of people are not going to be able to afford this kind of help. Or to pursue the therapies that i've been able to thankfully pursue a lot of people can't afford to spend two thousand dollars a month on supplements. What are some of your suggestions for folks who might be in that circumstance to faults. So i can talk to about some of the foundational pieces. People can work on on their own. I think that would be helpful and then talk about the work that i'll be launching here soon. That will really lower expense and help people out so foundationally like you said. Get out if you even if that means camping in your own backyard. So that's not terribly expensive to do. And then you can buy an end ninety five if you have to go back in your home and get your things. Use the restroom and then go out so if you can get out and then work foundationally in by that is toxins are all excreted and you wanna have sleep with the sun. Wake up about the same time. Put yourself on nature nature's healing so they have the sherron yoku is for its bathing and they found that it reduces cortisol and blood pressure and so go on a hike if he can now. It's pretty cold here in chicago. Land but we still go out for we. Bundle up and go for walks. And they're s- local hikes that will we will do as well and then so it's clean clean air so get out of the environment clean water drinking spring. Water or filtered. Water really is top of the list cleaned. Food eating foods that organic and laden with other chemicals that are gonna compound everything going on and he. That's where you should invest your money and making sure that you if you're not feeling so well to move even just walk or if you can get into if you don't can't afford Sauna experienced than even absence. salt bats. which you'll sweat in and you'll excrete topics sends you can do dry brushing before or after to hell and as well as sure that you're hydrated. So hydration being really well hydrated will help dilute out the toxins and then making sure your pooping everyday. So i always tell people i have to be a joke. I said it's the only career that i it's glamorous for me to talk about pooping and so i have a group of ladies and leading through a wellness dirty and weaver the whole topic. This last week was diet and digestion. And i said yeah all the movie stars when i go to their events. They get s- russky encrusted case phone cases. I said we go to conferences. And we get a free poop. Test not so glamorous. Oh maybe they can add some crystals to the vox or something. I don't know but those foundationally so people can start on those right away and even say someone couldn't afford dinner s another way to restore the limbic system is through any vega l- exercises so you can Ten minutes in the morning ten minutes at night hum before you eat. Because then it'll allow you to digest your food. You can sing you. Can gargle suggests water. So these are free things you can do so whenever we rush your teeth. Rinse row allen. Just gargle for a few minutes. Though mornings doing a have to clear fusses folks. All those techniques will trigger the vagus nerve with slows down the heartbeat and it gets us out of fighter flight so it's almost impossible and it's almost impossible than to be in fighter flight so slowing things down so it's really taking out of that fight or flight temporarily and done time very effective in making that limbic system or functional and taking people out of fighter flight for longer and longer periods of time people breath hold so just breathing and there was a great book. I just read by james nester. All breathe and studies show that just breathing and inhaling for six seconds and exhaling for six was about the perfect ratio and that most people are over breathing and that alone so these are all the free things people can do and then most will need a bit more in. That's why and mid february so by the time you're podcast. Launches may have just launched on launching a conquering mold community. So really low cost and tree community. Or i can coach people as a group and a group format through weekly. Qna's and a four week kind of for weeks module on huddah jumpstart their health. If they have mold as well as i'm gonna be doing a four week module on how to have a healthy home so ably seem to be really low cost to participants so that they don't have to spend thousands if they don't habit and i'm going to be launching that as low as twenty nine ninety nine a month in so that's less than what people tend to spend on carry out food or starbucks even for armand. Yeah and that's huge because there is very little support for people who are going through this. there's a few. There's a few blogs out there but it's it frankly it's overwhelming and when you're in that ill the state and you're not thinking clearly and your memories gone and you don't have any energy like the thought of trying to piece any of these things together in the right order on your own is basically impossible so i think that's going to be unbelievably helpful for so many people because going to see a good punctual medicine doctor. Most of them don't take insurance either. They can't afford to anymore. So you're looking at five hundred to a thousand dollars. A doctor visit in cash and again. That's not going to be an option for a lot of folks. So i'm super excited that you're putting this out there to help people like james and the other people who are going through this. Because i think it's going to be a huge source of hope from oaks votes for most folks which i think is the first and most important foundational component to recovery. Miss hope. If you don't have that it's like you mentioned earlier. People some people have lost it or they just don't have it and without that you're not going to get better because you're never going to have the outcome of healing in your mind. To begin with is what is required to eventually. He'll so i think it's gonna be awesome. Thanks i think so too and you have to say i've now run to online communities versus. I have a a six week weight loss program and really it was my answering the pandemic of bose. I was really a little distant heartened that i thought during a pandemic people be more interested in their health but it seemed like people were last and i said what are they interested in how what i can. What can i give them that they want and on the backend sell them what they need. Meaning teach them all the other things and it has been so powerful. I had a woman. I work with one on one. Who ironically has mold and she got more value out of the group because of not only the cheerleading but the support of all the other people in it. And just the this month. I've launched a high-performance coaching group for high level executives and entrepreneurs and we're seeing the same effects and so there's just a lot of power and the sad things is like you'd said there's not many practitioners doing it this to this extent i combine it with genetic solace other things. But when you have the group then you can really reach the masses and it's even more powerful than when you what you do in the office at times because of that level of support exactly so. Let's talk a little bit about the future of diagnostics and what technology is bringing to the table and genetics specifically because i know that's playing a bigger and bigger role when it comes to helping people identify what's really going on and i just got back another genetic results test last week which seemed social some really positive results for me which i was super excited about. It appears that the genes for or chronic inflammatory response from our turned off now and that was amazing to hear. But can you talk about how epigenetics work in how genes turn on and off and then what kind of tests are available to folks. Now that comes into play when it when you're making a recovery plan. Yeah this is a great topic. And i love it. I am so epigenetics. Just means the ability of your diet and lifestyle. So you're in your environment to be able to turn off defective gene. So he can have a healthy life and one of the greatest examples as the guti mouse example. If you haven't heard about it. They took a mouse who was predisposed to being obese based on its parents and they put it on a nutrient rich diet and gave it methylated b vitamins and a non stressful environment. And i laugh. I always knew how you do that for. Mouse and the mouse never manifested is obese. And they did. The congress study where they took a mouse who wasn't predisposed to being obese and give it a terrible diet environment and deprived of nutrients in it became obese in the hair coating on the mice actually changes and so epigenetics is really powerful and what genetics is or the neutra genetics. It it looks at the genes that are defective and bypassing those jeans. If we suspect that they're actually turned on. The gina type is there mutation and then the phenotype is that mutation actually turned on. And that's what they were able to measure in that testing. I was happy to hear that his all mike was thrilled when i heard that sort. You're on your way. If gene is actually expressing is mutated then you can support it and and so there are some tasks you can do to measure whether that's being expressed. I always tell people. I don't just treat the gene. You have to look at the bowl history. All the symptoms the environment the genes as well as the labs and. That's what was done for you and then you can support but i do have a theory. And here's my theories that the world is becoming more and more toxic with the chemicals with the wifi with ems with everything and unless you're out in the middle of the woods or desert if we're not being exposed to all these things and living off the land you're being exposed and everyone's toxic buckets are different so if you've got a small toxic buck small bucket for toxins and terrible genetics. Then it'll you'll manifest symptoms a lot quicker than someone who's got a large bucket and can smoke all their lives and never get lung cancer. Those other rarer rarity and so my theory is that the more and more toxic. The world becomes as. I don't know that we will eventually be able to override the genetics with epigenetics with our diet and lifestyle. That's my big fear. And you better believe that someone who is chronically ill you better believe that those genes that are actually. Mutated are most likely expressing. And i've worked up a case. I worked up cases going forward and back so i had a woman come in who wanted to see me for each afar and that's the wrong thing just looking at one gene but she was trying to get pregnant and that is implicated in a recurrent miscarriages. She had and she wanted support. And lo and behold between the time she booked and saw me six weeks later she got diagnosed with acute rheumatoid arthritis. I took her through the steps of what i normally do it. He'll someone and we kind of consolidated visits because she was an ex patriot. Whose only here in the us for short time and then went back abroad and gave her multiple steps to follow in here from her for a year and a half. And i thought boy wonder what happened to her and she actually came back me two months later for that genetics. Consultation about fertility. I said boy i. I'm shocked back. I thought you you probably better in. You're upset with me. And and she has. No i feel i can never had rheumatoid arthritis and so i took her through the normal motions and then in that visit. I was able to look and see why the things that i had. Targeted based on her lab and symptoms worked. And so it was just amazing so you can work forwards and back. I prefer when someone's really sick so she was more acutely sick and we were able to recover her. Someone's been sick for a long time. I like getting those genetics and all my patients who come through at that executive level. We do them right away. It does take a while back. And i combine it with the labs and comes to mold. And i'll speak to your case. 'cause it's fascinating. The things i'll be really interested to correlate is when you look at why does the brain get turned on and fired up so much in one person in not another wise. The other person just fatigue and one of the excited tori kind of brain chemicals is glutamate. And so if you're not converting glutamate to gabba which are calming brain kemoko or neurotransmitter. You're not doing that very well. Then you're always going to be on and so that's why. I think you had a lot of the symptoms. So i'd love to see what those genetics show. And there's another process where unav- our diet and as a result of yeast overgrowth in our belly. We can have and our genetics. We can have high levels of oxalate in our bodies. Oxley are also inflammatory to the brain and there is definitely mutations the way you metabolize them and their support we can give patients in a very step approach. Have to be careful because if you treat someone to quick and it can lead to oxalate dumping and oxygenates are like having shards of glass ripping through all your tissues. Inflammatory the brain for women. It can cause interstitial cystitis which is painful bladder. Symptoms that mimic having a bladder infection. But there's no infection found. So i'm really. I'm not excited to see that. You have these mutations most super excited to do a deep dive once all the reports come back in that way we can not only recover you and others but keep you there. That's my main goal in. I do believe. I have the oxalate one from a previous genetic tests that i've done and an adrenal doctor that was working with. I know we did a genetic test. And he's he said we need get you away from oxalates. And here's the kicker about that. Because i'd never heard about oxalates before. It's in all the healthy vegetables that you would normally like spinach. It's an kale in all of these veggies that i was either juicing and drinking on a regular basis or just eating a salad and all the sudden those are out of the diet on my crap. Now there's even less. I can eat. That's been That's been the frustrating part of the process for sure. Yeah yeah i can only imagine. 'cause you're right are inox oxalates and as you mentioned. It's spinach beets chard kale. Those are probably your top four and we always say if you're going to lower them in your diet should be real gradual so you don't dump into your system but yeah i'm sorry that is that can be challenging and i have worked with patients to try to find things because you really want people to be eating a real diverse diet and i think that's one thing that gets overlooked in just in general and and health and wellness is that we've got gotten so focused on these elimination diets keto diets diets. But if you're not rotating what you eat and don't eat more than say thirty or forty things. In a week you can actually also have immune dysregulation more food intolerances. So it's like this double edged sword so sometimes you do have to limit the diet temporarily and there are things we can give our patients that will allow them to eat more limited diet. So are the foods we eat. The bacteria use foods to produce something called short. Chain fatty acids in those are fuel for not only our body and are but for our immune system as well on its way keeps us our mental health mental wellness in check as well. And i'll give shortchanged fatty acids in. There are some three different types. And you can give it supplemental. If i have to limit someone and actually works really well for people who suffer with ulcerative colitis or crohn's because its fuel for the colon or actually quite as more than crowns but yeah so i hear you can be frustrating. And they're so many intricate pieces. It's you always want to take a few steps and do them in a very systematically to know what's working and are we on the right track rather than twenty steps in trying to supplement and set up without targeting it and then making a morse agreed agreed dr ikea who are running up on the top of your our want to be respectful of your time. Where can folks go to connect with you. If they want to work with you set up a consultation. Where can they go to follow you on social media and then whereas the mold community going to be available at yes so the mole community is going to be at. www conquering mall dot com. My website allows people to book a discovery. Call with one of our team to see if it's a good fit for them and everything about our system in processes is on the site and that dr dot com just d. r. our age aka dot com. And almost all my handles. Facebook is afford slash dr ikea with joe. That abbreviated spelling. Dra jk and instagram. As dr rica. so it seems to be the flavor. Youtube is dr ikea. And you've actually inspired me. Mike celena be producing short videos. Because actually do doing. Facebook lives and videos and i is alive first and then turned into you youtube video because there's so much power when he can eat and catch people earlier rather than later. Yeah i. It's the serendipity that the internet allows for is literally life-saving whether it's meeting you or some of the other doctors that i've worked with. It's either come through a friend or through youtube like literally just out there searching the answers and it's one of man one of the biggest resources out there for folks who are looking for help and i think it's a huge opportunity for you from a professional standpoint and a business standpoint but also obviously for the people that you're gonna be able to help as well. I am all about that. It will be happy to help an any way that i can so very exciting stuff. Thank you thank you so much for joining us today. I wanna ask everybody who listen to this again. If you know someone who's going through a chronic health challenge. They don't know what the problem is. They're not getting better. Have them reach out to someone. Like dr reiko and have them listened to this episode. please share with them. Because it's very good chance there is something like a mold. Infection or lime disease or something chronic. That's coming from the environment that is at the root cause of this and it's discoverable now and it's fixable now. I think this could end up changing their life in a massive way to thank you for doing that. Dr thank you for joining me. This has been fantastic. Anything else that we missed. I think we got it all. No thank you. Mike for this wonderful opportunity in allowing us both to empower educate those nurses and spreading the word. Absolutely thank you so much for listening. We'll see next week. Take care the ground. The news machine. You long off back until norwood zoo changed district feeling blue the shah.

dr ikea Autoimmune diseases arthritis Asthma skin rashes bronchitis adrenal fatigue bra milanovic galbraith dr reiko infertility endometriosis dementia 's alzheimer's neil nathan dr neil nathan besley aleph mckee dementia
What would Keynes do?

The Ezra Klein Show

1:43:51 hr | 11 months ago

What would Keynes do?

"What would you do? If you found out your family had a dark secret legacy. From Meka, green and Jordan peele comes HBO's newest series lovecraft country a genre bending drama that blurs the line between science fiction and reality in Nineteen Fifties, Jim Crow America starring Jonathan Majors Journey Smaller Courtney events and Michael Kenneth Williams lovecraft country Air Sundays at nine pm on HBO and Stream It on Hbo Mass. How do we decide democratically what constitutes a good life and a good society and how how do we go through the political process of dismantling the things that we think are unfair in a way? That is itself fair Hello and welcome to be as Conn show on the Fox media podcast network. This podcast kicks off a series that I've been working on for a couple months now actually. Feel pretty strongly about which is this podcast is the first of four part series about remobilising the economy and we chose that word very carefully mobilizing. This is not like a typical financial crisis. This is like a normal recession we have frozen big parts of the economy we have told people can't supply their labor we have stopped. From producing what they produce, we have told businesses, they can't let people in the door. We have demobilized huge portions of the economy so much like during a war or after a different respect a war, we're going to have to mobilize parts of our economy, and then we're going to have to have a direction or set of directions in which we do it. There is going to be so much late in supply. So many people who can contribute who have not been allowed to somebody businesses that have shuttered so much that we could. Turn towards making this country better and making the economy better but also making our lives better. But we will have to decide to do it and we will have to have a purpose for which we will do it, and so this series is going to be about different ways. We could do that different visions, policy packages around which we could mobilize economy put people back to work get money back in people's pockets, but also build a better future. This series is done in partnership with the media or network a social impact philanthropy that works to re. Critical Systems, the ideas that govern them and to build more inclusive and equitable societies, and it's also part of a broader series on box called the great rebuild. You can visit box, dot, com, slash data, Dash Great Dash rebuild to get all the podcasts in the series and coming in September a special issue magazine. The highlight we'll be devoted how revolt the economy and the right way, but the first episode here is one I'm super excited about. So Zach harder is seen reporter at huffpost. Race covered congress white US and economic policy on be somebody I've trusted on these issues for years but he just wrote a book this year it's one of the best books I've read this year called the price of peace money democracy and the life of John Maynard Keynes and I'm going to a bit something told Zach this when he told me a couple of years ago he was writing a book about John Maynard Keynes I'm like well, that seems like a quixotic weird thing to do. and. Then he wrote this remarkable biography of Kane's just to absolutely terrific book the uses canes to explore deeper question, which is what isn't economy four. Next for and he uses the life of canes, which is more interesting than a lot of people know the ideas of canes but also the way in which canes understood economics to be subsumed other values be subsumed to another vision of society, which was supposed to serve to explore the these much more profound ideas, and so it's a perfect quick question or topic set to start the series because a fundamental question of the. Series is one something canes understood and pursued economically, which is how can the government get an economy back on its feet after it has been shattered by outside events or financial panics, wars, pandemics but number two what are the purposes of getting economy on beyond just getting people jobs? How do we think about economics tied to larger social values or purposes as always my email is kind show at vox. Dot. com here Zach Carter. Zach Carter with guest. How are the dogs? Ezra. assholes. Peppers, your dogs mad they. They had a good life and then we had a kid is what happened. That's that's where pepper is she I think mostly adjusted but But yes, she does this thing where she won't let the kid touch her she sort of runs around and protective circles around her which. I feel like that's that's okay. It's way better than what we were six months ago. The the the weird thing about the dogs is now my relationship with them is much worse because we live in a place where. They just sit looking out the window barking at things like it's their job because I think they do believe it to be their job but calvin has a great relationship with my son and they love each other and he just runs around the house at all hours screaming the word doggy looking for them But but you know my my other dog Patsies Shire, and her life has been completely wrecked by the situation. It's a big adjustment. It's just a big adjustment. But. That's that's how that's how life goes dogs. They were home all the time. Now that's been good for them. Yeah yet quarantines definitely been good for pepper I. Feel like the dogs in general have had it have had a good quarantine I I saw that pretty much all of the shelter dogs in in New York had been adopted. So it's actually very difficult to get your hands on on a dog in New York City, which is the opposite of the way it usually is. So you know it's not all bad news. Yeah. That's nice. The the other thing about it is that. I think now all the time do you remember there was a slate article that said if you're about to advocate, don't get pets I now think about that article all the time because it's like you feel so bad like where this these creatures are near the centre of your world and they're getting so much affection from you, and then all of a sudden you have no more affection left to give them and you know the getting walked their life is perfectly but you know you're. Failing and like a fundamental energy exchange that you had with them and they were used to, and there's nothing you can do about it and you can't really explain to them why it's happening and that presumably eventually it will go back to normal and or like the little creature will become a able to give them more affection directly but it's a it makes me feel very guilty. So that's my relationship is with them like so many of the relationships in my life completely suffused with guilt. Well, you know I think dogs are complex emotional creatures. They're they're able to handle adversity into whether it more so than we give them credit for and I think they enjoy having a new role to play frankly so I I wouldn't feel totally guilty you know I it seems like Calvin at least is having having a good time I don't think any of that's true. You're like your parents like Oh God live on the farm. Now this is bad for them. But. That brings me to question. I wanted to ask you which is related to this conversation. What is the purpose of economics? Very. Very good question that is that is the wrong way, right? Yeah. That is that is frankly I've done quite a bit oppressed for this book. That's the hardest question. Anybody's giving me That question would be answered with a dodge. It depends on when you ask the economics profession, which economists you ask if you ask John Maynard Keynes, he would have said economics is the tool through which we achieve social justice and a harmonious society I think if you ask most economists today, they would say it's a way to prevent governments from running out of money or something like that where away to prevent financial crises for canes. Keynes first and foremost philosopher any came to the economics profession when it was relatively young as a profession before canes. There were people who specialized in call themselves economists, but for the most part, the great economists were also great philosophers or great literary theorists or great writers and Economics was sort of one of the fields in which they specialized people like John Maynard Keynes or or even Isaac Newton and and John Locke. Adam Smith or Adam Smith of course Adam. Smith, probably in some quarters of academia considered a better moral philosopher than he hasn't economist. These people were interrogating these economic questions as part of a broader social theory. A part of a broader philosophical project and canes I think is really the last of these economists to be to be doing that that kind of project after canes economics becomes very specialized becomes very mathematical and very technical and divorced from these these moral questions. It's sort of get some of its prestige from the idea that you could solve economic questions independently of social and moral questions and canes that would have been the wilder thing that that's just not the way that he looked at the world I think for our own world today. The central problems of economics have changed over time, but the basic tools and and sort of language of the profession have not canes thought in the Nineteen Twenties and certainly by the nineteen thirties that scarcity was no longer the chief problem that economics was trying to solve. But when I took econ one, let's see two, thousand two. The first thing I learned about economics is economics is the study of scarce resources and unlimited wants. So scarcity is just built in to to the project of the economics Sort of field canes didn't think that was the primary issue that economics was trying to solve. He thought economics was trying to solve war inequality inequality as a secondary issue war because it was something that he thought was sort of fueling violence and international disharmony but. Today I. You know I think. I. I'm preoccupied with those problems myself today because I think they're important now and my political views sort of aligned with a lot of Kansas political views but I certainly think the study of scarcity needs to be revisited. So the pick up on a couple of things in that. But but let me actually pick up and the idea that his study of economics isn't always motivated by the problem of war. Because of the threads, the book that that was really informative for me was understanding how critical is thinking about managing domestic economies with somewhat motivated by a desire to stop seeing the management of domestic economies done by beggaring neighbor and create conditions for for Warsaw international economics is often being used domestic subsidy program. Could you talk a little bit about that backdrop both the backdrop of war that motivated him but also the backdrop of mercantilism and cannon of national interest economics that motivated him. Sure will canes grows up as a die-hard free free-trader and he he has He has these very deep. Emotional commitments to free trade that predate his understanding comics. He sees free-trade is sort of a a international ideal where we're different societies are able to exchange goods and ideas and and grow and be sort of mutually prosperous, and he cherishes that ideal throughout his life that ideal is really tied up with His his vision of the British Empire, which she also sees I think the way many American exceptionalism today. See the states east the British Empire as a you know this this beacon. Of Light and hope that that's bringing democracy and prosperity around the globe and World War One is this very shocking, difficult, catastrophic, emotional experience for canes because he comes to revisit all of these things and he comes to see the British empire not as a beacon of light in harmony. But as a self interested in in many ways, predatory enterprise and he he sees this firsthand at at at Paris during the negotiations over the treaty of Versailles which ended ended World War. One but he became a serious economist in the war He was he was in charge of British financial policy and British war finance, which was a very, very important position as a war maker. He was involved intimately in discussions over military strategy than how to manage the British economy and the British war machine you know if. When you're running the economy at full silty to make decisions about whether you need more wool or more or more wheat or more soldiers, and and he was he was part of that discussion and considered the brightest mind in in the British government a on those questions. He also came to believe that the war itself was totally immoral and unjustified able. So he finds himself in the situation where he is managing the British economy when we're doing war economics like this, that type total war economics. It is no longer a free market economy. Everything is being managed by the state and that was very that was very commonplace in in war economy's really through World War to the United, states has been running market economies alongside its it's war Connie's free much throughout all of the postwar era but. This was essentially a socialized economy where the government was directing everything and canes came to look at the economy from the perspective of a British imperial manager and he sort of. Started to think about economics, not as a set of actions from different atomised individuals, making choices in a market, but as a system that could be managed from above frankly, and that's where macroeconomics comes from the idea of macroeconomics did not exist when canes for started writing and thinking about the economy. It's something that comes out of Keynesian thinking which comes I think from the fact that Keynes was involved in in the British war economy, he was a pacifist It's his life is full of contradictions and ironies like any great life but he was a pacifist who who ran the British war machine economically, and he wanted economics to be used as the thing that could prevent war that. People would resort to violence if you didn't use other tools of statecraft to prevent violence and he he's he thought that economics was the tool to to prevent that and he he came up with all sorts of different ideas over the course of his life I. HE changed his mind over and over again hope I'm not getting too far afield from your question to answer I. Part of the part that you've not really touched on here is actually the. The Competitive Economic Dimension. So there's one world where he's shaped by war and practically by the catastrophes of World War One but there's something else that you track him as recognizing, which I thought was really interesting, which is the way different countries. Different economies are using punitive international economics because they're facing domestic economic troubles and that he begins to recognize that among other things. If you stop tying your economy to gold and recognize, you can do a lot of domestic economic management some the incentive to impose heavy reparations payments on people you've defeated in battle some the incentive to tariffs and other kinds of beggar-thy-neighbour trade initiatives begins to dissipate the good domestic economic management. Will take away one of the self interested reasons for war, which is or at least aggressive economic policies, which is that they help you even to say hurt your neighbor at least potentially there's there's a scramble for resources that's built that's built around scarcity. So if if you don't have enough stuff, you've got to get it from somewhere else under the gold standard and under the terms that were imposed at the end of one everybody except the United States has massive massive debts, Germany owes reparations, debts to other countries, Britain, and France, oh massive debts to France. Oh, them to both the United States and Britain Britain them to the United States so. These countries have to produce things in the real world of of you know weet in sheep in lumber and bricks, and they have to produce those things in order to create money, which they can then send to the United States in in Germany's case that the money has to be sent to France to enter Britain, have to get that money and send it to the United States. So there's this there's this financial economy that kind of exists super meaning on the real economy, but it's sucking resources out of the real economy and shipping them over to the United States, which at the end of World War One is the richest country in the world so. That makes no sense to canes I mean he's partially he's He's thinking about this as a a self interested British Patriot wire we sending of all all of our money abroad to the United States but he also sees a clear moral problem here Germany has been in France have been devastated by the war. They need actual resources in order to be rebuilt Britain's in better shape. They've they've lost a lot of workers. A lot of people have been killed, but they haven't had their you know their fields in their factories devastated the way the economy's on the continent who've been. So he's he sees immediately that trade becomes linked to these international. Diplomatic agreements from from the war any sees immediately that the way that these economies have to get resources is always tied to trade. They can't just get people to go to work unless they're going to violate the terms of of the sort of gold standard orthodoxy. One of the reasons he becomes an advocate of deficit spending which he does long before he writes the general theory and comes up with a sophisticated scientific justification for it is that it just seems politically necessary. All these countries are in debt, but they have they have to spend somehow otherwise their economies won't exist they will have to go into debt if they're going to do anything. And deficit spending in a way become sort of an alternative to predatory trading relationship. If you can get your resources by just taking on debt and paying people to go to work in in in in your domestic sphere, then you don't have to just sees other countries' markets with. Fancy, you know price tariffs, an exchange rate maneuvering, and and all the rest. Any actually says in the general theory and in one thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, Seo. International Trade has become a way for countries to undercut each other and advance parochial interests at the expense of international harmony, and that's a huge problem because canes has this very deep deep feeling about the moral imperative to to free exchange of ideas across internationalism it breaks his heart really and and he wants to see a world where people can exchange ideas and learn from each other and cooperate across boundaries and he's he sees the Economics Orthodoxy of the time, which is really attacking at every level. On the general theory. He's not just talking about deficits. He's attacking the entire project and he he says, look this is this is making us go to war. This is making preventing us. From from living together and we have to, we have to find some different tactics for management of these economies. Otherwise, we're just going to beat each other strokes forever I want to go into some of the wonky or more specific parts of Keynes's thinking. But before we do you spend time in the book in a way that I think is important on the bill you he comes out of and particularly in the parts of it that tie him anti his thinking to something beyond economics. So can you talk a bit about the Bloomsbury group and the role they played for him? Sure. Canes comes of age of the turn of the century in a very influential philosophical community at Cambridge University. His friends or people like Bertrand Russell, who is one of the most important philosophers of the twentieth century people like limited they can Stein who is an even more important philosopher of the twentieth century and they're all students of this fellow g e Moore who was a moral philosopher and g Moore's great contribution to the history of more philosophy was sort of a reinvigoration of Clayton. Ism the the idea that There are things that are intrinsically good and that a good life is built up out of experiencing those intrinsically good things. It was it was an attack on frankly. The world view that came up alongside the economics profession over the nineteenth century, which was called utilitarianism. UTILITARIANISM. Is I. Think the simplification of is the greatest good for the greatest number, but it's a very economic way of thinking about morality. You can. You can reduce all of human experience to the ability to create happiness or pleasure or meaning a different utilitarian take different approaches to this But the important thing is to maximize the pleasure or the happiness through whatever actions you're doing and canes was reacting against that and said, no. There are certain things. Called Organic unities, they use these. These wonderfully. Opaque topics, but an organic unity is something that's just good and indivisibly good. It's just what it is You know a fine evening a great a great work of Art Gazing into your lover's is these are things that can't be broken down into component parts and then reconstructed in some other way. In order to to maximize some some other project and he thinks that a good life is built up of these things. But this is not a mathematical science. This is not a project that can be done with equations You know comparing one great work of art to another is is not You can't just go to PITCHFORK DOT COM and say whether it's A nine point six and that nine point eight. So it's better. NAFTA'S METACRITIC. Exactly, so he wanted you want an aggregate. I mean I'm dating myself. I don't think people read pitch work anymore but. What I was coming of age is very influential website but that that project of quantification he he reacted very very strongly and it was. This is a very. Elite crowd of fancy intellectuals at Cambridge in university who then went out into the world and properly became broke artists. So Lytton Strachey was one of his best friends at at Cambridge became one of his best friends after school but through Lytton. He Meets People like Virginia Woolf and forced her in these these very prominent artists in in in the British intellectual scene, but they're not prominent yet. Virginia Woolf, doesn't become a famous writer until nineteen, twenty five or so and he's friend she's friends with canes beginning in one, thousand, nine, hundred, six. So they have they have this long period of sort of intellectual and artistic collaboration and cohabitation. These people are all also just dramatically totally just it seems enormously stressful to me. They're just always sleeping with each other and getting into fights and. It's very scandalous for the time but I think for modern. Readers the the thing that really just stands out as how stressful it must've have been. But but they're always sleeping with each other. But they also seem very closely connected to each other. So they'll have these affairs and break up and then have affairs again but they all stay tied together and. There's the sense that they're part of this very important project. I mean part of this is. Is that you sort of the delusions of grandeur that that every young person has but but I think that the intensity of their emotional entanglements together helps to sort of cement. The idea that they're engaged in a very important project otherwise, it wouldn't be worth all this trouble, right? It wouldn't be worth all of the emotional trauma they have to go through to be continue to be friends together, and so they feel like they're part of this big international scene and people in this in this milieu include Virginia Woolf's sister Vanessa Bell who's Constantly, going off to to visit other great painters of the day she she. Pablo Picasso his his studio at Montparnasse, and of course, the writers in this in this group end up becoming a quite significant later on as well. I. Think. One of Keynes's lovers probably the most significant lover in his life before he meets his his wife Lydia lava copays is a painter named Duncan grant and he goes off his staying with Gertrude Stein at. Paris too. So there's this international milieu where these people believe that they're part of a shared international project that that the people who are involved with arts and letters are not just. ENGAGED IN NEAT little projects, they are actually engaged in a political act that is bringing countries closer together that is breaking down particularly in Europe the medieval barriers between peoples that had been erected over the course of centuries and through the power of of this pure beauty that that they're all pursuing they're going to create an era of of international harmony and. It's totally naive right in nineteen fourteen. This war breaks out in the entire entire scene is is shattered and they're they are deeply emotionally wounded by this and. The that experience of the war is, what transforms the the people in the Bloomsbury set who become famous important artists do so I think because the war forced them to to confront the real world in a way that they had not they had not done before so and I'd include Canaan. Back up into something in that because I think it's important and then I'll just notice a as a side thing. I think it's funny that you say like odd. So stressful because I read it I'm like Oh so so boring. So boring here's canes do and he's doing a lot of work to but having. This fun artists community. They're all living art in a way. Right? They're. They're trying to to to be artists and live in a way that is artistically Dick. And something that you were talking about in terms of the philosophical underpinnings of the group, the way I it's in a platonic tension with utilitarianism as going to get his later in our conversation I hope don't end up jumping around in a that is confusing for folks listening but but I think this is really important and really important to understanding like the challenge of canes to Connect Economics. So utilitarianism, right you wanNA maximize utility that is still the language economics uses people have different. Of Utility, but in part because nobody's quite comfortable with anybody else defining utility, what we end up defaulting to in economics and public policy is what I would call consumer preferences ride. The maximum utility is revealed by whatever people actually do when you leave them alone with their money. And there are a lot of people myself included who think it's a really thin shallow understanding of what people want out of life, right? It's the same way in which you know facebook or twitter Kristen Algorithm. And they say, well, people just keep clicking on retweeting, etc the most extreme outrageous or emotional things. So that shows that that's what's really giving them the most utility otherwise, they wouldn't be doing it and there are people say that's ridiculous. That's you've addicted people. You haven't found their definition of good life but the problem on the other side, which is why people I think end up going down that track feeling more comfortable that chocolate its imperfections is that the platonic. Influence. Keynesian. Or Galbraith the end which you bring up later version of this. Can feel extremely paternalistic, right? It requires someone or some polity to make a decision about what the good life really is. So the reason I wanted to pull the bloomsbury group is at canes often in in his economics like it seems to me from things I've read of his and things you have the book like what he wants to do is create an economy that will foster a vibrant healthy artistic and intellectual sphere right that he. Wants to Konami that will make every person into a British aristocrat and wants to shape economic investment to do that and no matter what it is you want your me to do, and this is a big part of like what this mobilization series we're talking for is going to be like if you're going to have the government mobilizing huge quantities of economic resources, somebody's to decide what kind of mobilization is valuable, what you're actually trying to build. And one of the things that the sort of economic utilitarian dead or even the Samuel Sonian Keynesians, which we should talk about at some point is. They were able I think effectively say. You don't want to trust the government or these pointy headed academics whomever it is to define the good life for you. Better to just have likely garb trying to keep. Low, and then we give you your money back and tax cuts, and if what you WANNA do is buy TV and watched celebrity apprentice like go with God and like that that to me is in somebody stole the fundamental challenge gains poses. It's not just about how much deficit spending you should do but it's why star this conversation what is the point of economics because he? Thinks somebody has to decide that there has to be something some vision of the good life they're socially building towards whereas I think a lot of the people who picked up his mantle and certainly who run these things now are very uncomfortable without idea because you know who's to say that John, Maynard Keynes sitting there telling you that Virginia poetry and so and so's paintings are. Like really the way life should be lived and that we should be pointing our our economic artillery towards making it possible to to foster appreciate that it's a fundamental question of of political maternity I think and I I guess, maybe war is the fundamental question of full dernier maybe poverty but but the fundamental political theory question I think, I, think you've put your finger on. It, you know for canes there's always something outside of consumer preferences that they need to align with. There's always a good life and a good society that we're trying to guide society towards he believes he's he's a rationalist in the sense that he he believes that there are objectively good things in the world that not everything is relative that not everybody's preferences are are are equal. He generally wants to leave people alone. He believes in very deeply in these these sort of enlightenment liberalism values. He certainly thinks of himself as an enlightenment liberal, but he also thinks it's just silly i. mean you have everybody yelling each other on facebook or they can be reading Virginia Woolf I mean we we know which one of these is better right but that is a paternalistic approaches. As you note, the way that his successors who take him seriously as a philosopher, try to resolve it and I think Galbraith is the most successful in this is to say, well, look. This is what democracy is for sure. We don't WANNA have a big bad terrible monarch telling us what to do but But in a democracy, you know people can express their preferences politically. The idea that the way that they want to live is expressed through the market is just silly and using the market as an alternative to democratic politicking is is is a way of of. Signing up for a particularly bad life. Now, Galbraith gets quite sophisticated in in his expression of of why that's wrong. But but I think I think it comes down to the reason why put democracy in the title of the book it comes down to whether the economy is something that's supposed to be used by democracies to to further the goals of these Democratic People's or whether the economy. Is itself the expression of democratic will and Milton Friedman Very clearly I mean he talked about this very explicitly in in his book capitalism freedom just says, look, the market is the expression of the democratic will and the less government you have in the market, the better because you just WanNa? Have you WANNA have the market just be the expression of of People's preferences and I think a lot of the Keynesians who most people who we get who read in the newspaper who described themselves as Keynesian the And and like these are people who come who who are broadly comfortable with Friedman on that on that basic point and very uncomfortable with the implications of of Keynes's pointed in canes himself was uncomfortable with the implications of it You know he battled. He was constantly struggling with socialists and communists politically throughout his life, and he could never really make up his mind about about where he was on the question of socialism but it was very clear to him by the end of his life that large sections of the economy had to be socialized if we were going to realize the type of of good life that he went to realize and and so. I think in the states we think of him as this guy who legitimizes deficit spending in the UK. He has a very different legacy. His policy is most significant policy achievement in UK is socializing. British medicine I mean he is the financial architect of the National Health Service. So I think in the US is legacy is very much. So He's this guy who's sort of splitting the difference between you know marks and burke between conservatism and socialism, and he has this sort of liberal middle in the UK. It's much more complicated and I and I I think the The implications of his thought are much more complicated. You know some of his successors including John Robinson were very sympathetic both governments in north, Korea and and mouse China. Someone who's pretty comfortable with the word socialism in general. But I I don't know a lot of socialists at least in my circle social circle who were comfortable with Maoist China. So there are there are real dangers that we should say to to his thought just because you like canes or if you don't like canes doesn't solve the the the basic governing problems that Keynes's grappling with the xanax sense. Yeah. But but here I think you get into something really tricky. Not just for Keynesian. Economics Keynesian thought but for socialist for almost anybody who believes in small d democracy right as as your primary ordering principle, which is. What happens if you hold a vote and the people don't agree with you? And I think this actually ends up fouling up a lot more of these series and then people on recognized. Is going to be controversial statement but something I have noticed is that a lot of people identify as democratic socialists the tend to believe that disagreement with them is somehow manipulated that it's illusory that it's just like interest advertising or false consciousness or something else, and over time I've come to see that as part of if if you truly believe in democracy but people often don't vote for the thing you want them to vote for the candidate you want them to vote for then to make your. Theory work you need some way to say that the true belief like the soul of a belief of your policy is not being expressed, which just ends up creating a little bit of Hash of a of a reason why the of democracy and I think this is true and keynesianism to it, and by the way it's a problem for me. It's wrong for anybody who believes in democracy I don't mean to sing on anybody, but you have a line towards the end of the where you're talking about neoliberalism. And I think this is really key. You right pointing the finger at neoliberalism peer. You're talking about sort of policy failures in the past twenty or thirty years raises uncomfortable questions for canes and his defenders. Why has keynesianism proven to be? So politically weak even among extensively liberal political parties nations the Keynesian bargain of peace equality and prosperity ought to be irresistible a democracy. It has instead been fleeting and fragile. When you have A. An ideology of economic thought or political thought or anything else that has a very specific idea of the good life for the good society, but you also believe that the. Legitimate means of directing it in that. AMO is the small D. Democratic. And then you often don't win elections. You end up with a really big problem in your theory. Oh. Absolutely. Yes I think I think This is an age where we can all agree that authoritarianism well, I won't say we can all agree because obviously authoritarianism is on the rise around the world but I think reasonable people can all agree that authoritarianism is is a problem that it is bad that it is the. Maybe the central political dilemma of of our time. But the question is what what do we replace it with an unfortunately one of the things that is fueling authoritarianism around the world is the fact that a thorough. -Tarian governments are politically popular. We are seeing authoritarian parties in other parts of the world in the United States I think it's fair to call a trump's Republican. Party rotarians party but certainly in the EU. We're seeing people vote for for these. Governments that I find just totally toxic and destructive and awful I. Think the way that Canes dealt with it was to say, well, the reason people vote for these things is because they have been denied. The basic. Sort of political and economic foundations of of a decent life, and if you provide them with those those good things, then they won't support this type of of awfulness but that kind of becomes a circular argument right? Because at at a certain, there's no way to disprove that. Right you need. You need the good society to be in place for people to want the good society is a very might actually be true but is a is a it's not really It's hard to see how you get there. Then right right and you can see why people have revolutions I. think There are a lot of people who have grappled with this idea and said that that Keynes's Kansas framework you know the the strategy for canes is always to try and deal with people's material needs first of all and inequality second of all and see if that creates some sort of harmonious situation and he has this deep faith in humanity's ability not only to listen to arguments and. And agree to a rash of course of action but to to to care for each other and take care of one another and and believe in each other that's difficult faith to sustain when you see when you confront the things that human beings have done to each other over the millennia you know and I said the St at the end of the book I don't I don't know what the alternative is. I can see all of these these problems with with Keynesian thought and with democracy itself but. But the alternative is is worn authoritarianism. What will let me not do alternatives quite yet. Let let let's hold alternatives for Bic, I'm GonNa the one one reason we're doing this to sign posts conversation for people so much on on this part of Kane's is that. Actually. This whole series is going to be be at the the idea that post Kovic we are going to need or even potentially amidst Cova given how we're doing we're going to need to mobilize large parts of the economy through government action tied to purpose. It's one talk about do that. But before we go to that, there's a part of this that I think golf John Kenneth Galbraith who've been bringing in here sort of a another player who ends up being t to my great delight a bigger part of your book than I had expected. I Love Gulp Rate some of his books are the influential my thinking, and he's not held in very high repute in the economics profession including biological economists like Krugman. and yet he's somebody who when I read his work I think it's an incredibly pression to he didn't get math up in the way canes did although you could make an argument in the in your book that the way Kane's got matched up and made into more formalistic approach by people like Paul Samuelson came with real downsides but but something golbright break does and a lot of his mid-century books is make an argument that advertising is a very big. Player here and he's part of a lot of people then Walter Lippmann being another who are looking at the rise of advertising and seeing it. It's something that is going to sort distort public preferences so far. So profoundly, that is going to be hard to even answer the question of what do people really want and like knowledge is going to be hard to answer the question, but but their preferences are going to be changed and it's going to be an asymmetric. Effort at changing preferences. So there is not nearly the amount of money spent advertising the benefits of public parks as advertising benefits of toothpaste and specifically one toothpaste or another to say nothing of sugary breakfast cereal or lexuses, and you'll hear at some point in this conversation a break for an outbreak in which I'm going to read some ads and so like this is how it's our officer tire informational comments destruction really with the exception of books, newspapers, Cable News on. Social media magazines radio like podcasts like almost the entire informational comments we share are built atop the economic structure of advertising, and so one thing that golbright ends up emphasizing very heavily is it advertising is really going to change this advertising in his view is going to push people to want things economically that are not really what they should want. That are not gonNA in aggregate, bring them the most happiness, and that's because it's not going to be whether there. Is such a thing is true preference. This is not going to be this is going to be the preferences. People are spending a lot of money to manipulate and create and like. That's not a bad thing. Necessarily, it's not anybody's like terrible fault but that we should think about that when we're designing society the idea that we should just say what are people want to do with their money when somebody is telling them like when there are a lot of People spending a lot of money to to buy the set of things, and then a bunch of other people spending money telling them to support tax cuts like what you get on the other end of that is not societies vision of the good life. But is some weird relationship between peoples like base desires desires activated by incredibly sophisticated industry dedicated to shaping an activating particular desires and that to me speaks for a lot of these questions of democracy and. And economic activity where it really really really depends what kind of like quote Unquote State of nature you think public preferences Iran. If you don't believe that if you don't believe, they really wish actually reflect the public's deeper purposes that well, it isn't to say that you have alternative way to do it but it does create I think a healthy skepticism that we've sort of lost particularly on the economic side more than the political side like Golbright and others. Attacks on advertiser. Now considered a little bit to say but but I think they're basically right that it was going to screw up the system in a quite profound way i. think there are two things about Galbraith and advertising and that that you're. Getting at here that that should be. I you're clearly right that Galbraith's. Attack on on advertising was. Was a just just what make Is Wrong I mean they they just didn't care. You get a big yawn from the nineteen seventies through the through. The at least the crash of two, thousand eight. I the rise of social media has changed quite a bit though I think the economics profession looks at the way that Social Media Shapes People's preferences, and the way that social media engineers are are quite open about the fact that they know they're manipulating People's preferences in see quite a bit of of in this argument you know there would be talks about You know about subliminal messaging and whether advertising actually know changes people's minds and you know I it was always a little bit confusing to me listening to communist try to untangle this not because they say on the one hand, you know markets are rational and companies should do things to maximize their own profits and on the other hand they'd say, well, but advertising has no effect on People's preferences. Why do they do all the advertising? Then how can the company's be rationally maximizing their profits if they're devoting all this money to advertising the theory never seemed to hang together to me, but it didn't seem like it was. The central like a central flaw with with any political theory I just thought you know some economists were being a little bit silly I think with the rise of social media and I think there are a lot of a lot of very serious thinkers in the economics profession who are looking at that and saying, okay, we do have to talk about the way. Large actors are capable of shaping preferences in ways that that are undemocratic. The other point is that it's not just advertising that shape preferences. In these ways, there are power dynamics in society that are at every all the time Milton Friedman, who was a Sharp critic of Canes, and also Galbraith was very explicit about his belief that a free market without any government management would be capable of ending war and racism in the United States. He said, you know it will be an economic disadvantage to you not to hire the best talent, and so if you leave black workers out of your your industry, you will suffer and you won't make as much money in the market will take care of this without any need for government. Management of of of these standards. So he was an opponent of the Civil Rights Act, for instance, on these grounds and I. think that seems extraordinarily. Naive would be the generous way to describe that today you know People's preferences your ability to participate in a market and to express yourself through it depend quite a bit on these social relationships in power dynamics. That exist Outside and beyond your control you know hiring firing decisions are one thing. But but you know the condition of your schools, the the the the basic infrastructure available to your community. These are all things that affect. The outcomes in in any market system and and the idea that those problems will just naturally be solved by the the free expression of people's will I think is a is a very naive perspective and I don't think many people take it seriously anymore I think the the question as the did you put your finger on earlier in this conversation is how do we decide democratically what constitutes a good life, a good society, and how how do we go through the political process of dismantling the things? That we think are unfair in a way that is itself fair that that's a much more difficult question but I think for canes and and for Golbright Confronting Society. That's so fundamentally unjust. That's something people can just work out. They'll figure it out. They're not super concerned with it. You know for for Galbraith at least you know he becomes very deeply involved in the Johnson administration in the formulation of the Great. Society. So the Civil Rights Act, the voting rights act the creation of Medicare, these major big social. Programs. which in a lot of ways, yesterday's amplifies the stuff that was going on under the new deal and democratize it so that people of color who weren't weren't allowed to participate in it get to have some some participation in these programs but a lot of what we think of as the new deal is the new deal through the Johnson administration. So that stuff all becomes very central to call breath but he's aware that he's imposing his will on on the rest of society. And he knows that other economists think that he's sort of this fancy liberal professor type who is telling other people what to do and he was indeed a very eric man. There's no doubt about it. Everybody who knew either canes or Galbraith thought that these people were capable of of great charm but also just wildly impressed with themselves and you have to be wildly impressed with yourself to think that you know better first -ociety than than the rest of society but but that's That's politics. This episode is sponsored by the Jordan. Harbinger, show some of the most interesting thinkers in the world pull back the curtain on their incredible minds Jordan show which apple twenty it's best of two thousand, eighteen demystify motivations and influences of legendary creators, Kinda cost writers, and other essential change makers. So you can apply their unique strategies and perspectives to your own life. Each episode is a conversation with different fascinating guests and there's really something for everyone in his lineup among Jordan's recent gas been Brennan on comedy. 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So I'm I'm going to take a point of personal privilege before I go into by central question of what would canes do now. Because I, want to talk about the gold standard. A herreid sue weird thing about made that I'm gonNA confess but I have spent more than I think a normal amount of time wondering if had I been alive in the thirties, would I have been able to see the gold standard was about idea? Because, here you have this policy it's the way basically every country runs, it's economic it's monetary system. It is supported by the overwhelming majority of all the smart people in the era. They have very long lengthy treatises on why it's a good idea. And I think one of the single most important things canes able to do is see that they are wrong and slowly haphazardly convinced others that they are wrong and move uk off at a little bit how America move off it like a eventually the gold standard dies and it makes everything else possible. So I wanNA, talk about that for a minute can you explain why people thought the gold standard was a good idea people still today but but why do they think it then? And what did why was canes able to see that they were wrong the reason people like the gold standard today is very different from the reason that people like that's why I wanted credit at the turn of the century. People like the gold standard today because they see it as a way to impose basically right wing social values on society it's a way to create artificial financial scarcity. Which makes it easier to impose social hierarchies, racial hierarchies, class Harpies, whatever you can restrict resources to different communities by Saint we just can't afford it will run out of money if our currency is tied to gold we can't just run deficits We we have to make sure that the that we're living up to our commitments under the gold standard so. That's not the way people thought about it. At the turn of the twentieth century. It was sort of an expression of this very utopian enlightenment liberalism, and so one of the reasons that Keynes's successful at at dismantling it will he doesn't do it single handedly in most of the breakdown is just is just the unworkability of the system but one of the reasons he successful at convincing people that. It's it's a bad system is because they actually agree with his social values they're not at loggerheads over these deeper moral and political questions. They think that the gold standard is supposed to create a society of international harmony and mutual prosperity and when they've just lived through a world which the economy between World War One World War to the United States we think of the Great Depression starting in. Nineteen twenty nine with the stock market crash. But for most of Europe, the Great Depression starts at nine hundred nineteen. Soon as World War One is over the war economies come down and everything just goes right off a cliff and it stays there and keeps getting worse until World War Two. So people can just see that prosperity is not happening but they the first part of that People can can convince themselves that the reason prosperity is not happening is because they've broken with gold because all of these countries had to go off the gold standard for the sake of the war emergency and there are economists who are saying you'll look this terrible world we're living through is the price we paid for breaking the faith with this great enlightened liberal project of of the gold standard. But the gold standard is tied to the vision of free trade that that canes cherishes so much I want to stop you because you're sort of dancing are y was the gold standard itself thought be a good idea. You're sort of getting the take the sort of coalitions it creates but like why tire money to Gold WanNa tie it to the number of trees in in in in the world like the weather like I mean, what is the line we've found about enough gold in human history pure gold if you like bold and all down to fill three Olympic sized swimming pools something like that. It is objectively a little bit of a peculiar thing to say, we're going to pick this one medal and tie currencies. Why do people? Why did smart people think it was a good idea there would be a disaster to abandoned. Well, look if you go back far enough, there's you know the the pound sterling is a reference to sterling silver. So the gold standard is something that is imposed by the British. Empire because that's the way that that British politics just resolve a particular fight over. Over whether to inflate or deflate the currency it's actually a fight between Isaac Newton and and John Locke goes back to the eighteenth century so that that is a it's just sort of a fluke of history that locked won that battle and and gold became the standard for the British Empire in the British Empire. Then became the the hegemonic political power of the day. So if you wanted to do business with Britain, you had to get on gold So there's a very, just realpolitik reason for why gold becomes the thing not and not trees or or even silver, which was the standard before gold at least in Britain but. People. Want to believe that the British imperial system is good. They want to believe that the world order that exists that they live and is is is not only good in itself with capable of progress that it is capable of making the world a better place. They have different visions of what better means. There's there's a lot of imperialist paternalism tied up this year lifting lifting the savages out of darkness I think is is something that a lot of people are thinking of but but not all of them, there are a lot of liberal imperialists at this point in time who think they're they're bringing democracy to the rest of the world, and that gold is the economic system by which democracy and international comedy is achieved. This is you know I I have flooding. Disagreements with this world view of course, but but you know I look at the United States today the let me speak for for one second to just clarify one point because it's still here today isn't it intuitive? The idea that have governments can just print money based on whatever right and also trying to trade with each other that it's going to be disaster like I. I'm having a little bit of fun with the idea that gold is a very it's an arbitrary thing tire currency to but the idea the currency should be tied to something not just the whims in of governments and that all the. Currencies should somehow resolve down to the same things that you can come up with currency exchange rates, and all the rest of it. There's something appealing about it particularly, if you don't trust politicians which many people don't and I think that's why it's still has some purchase today back. Then they're even worse monetary policy. There are even worse at fiscal management. So the idea that like things have to be like tied to something makes him sense like what's wrong with that idea what ends up being the problem with it? Oh, it ends up being the problem with it as it just doesn't it it just doesn't work. People are MS rated and in the political system ultimately breaks down. So once the political system breaks down. Culminating in World War Two people are willing to come up with different international economic model. But. You know there are these. Liberal. Ideas that are tied up in the gold standard are about. Small government leave me alone don't let sovereigns meddle in the affairs of the people These are ideals that look whether you're a right wing second amendment advocate in the United States or a left-wing socialist you can get down with right. These are ideals. They're pretty broadly shared across the community even today. So I mean that's one of the reasons why why gold is is so popular and I just would I would point to. The popularity. Of WTO, style globalization over the last thirty years I. Think it's pretty clear at this point that this project has not been a success certainly the idea that we were going to create. More international harmony between the United States and China and bring China into sort of more democratic small D democratic human rights oriented system of governance has not happened but people believed fervently in the system for a long long time and we've had to get close to you know pretty much disaster multiple times for people to even start talking about whether globalization needed to be modified in some way or another, and right now, we we live in a world where the WTO is essentially not functional anymore. Let me show doesn't really do anything, but we still have it and people still you'll still have debates you know listen to NPR and they talked about trade. You'll have you know former WTO advisors coming on and talking about what we ought to do, and the power of that idea is bigger than the actual The power of that dream is is bigger than the the day to day economic results and things have to get. Really Nasty for people to to be willing to change the system, and even when they do you have people like canes who are capable of changing some people's minds but canes loses so many policy battles. It's only after he's lost the people point to him and say you were right all along. We should have listened to you what is Cain see as the problem with gold? I mean you you mentioned I think correctly that it ends up in misery people. But he makes a critique what what is it when he's trying to convince British policymakers or for that matter American policymakers trying to convince Roosevelt to golf the gold standard what does he tell them is the problem that they're gonna be able to solve by going off of it. Well, it depends on on which canes at which point in time because he's a critic of of a gold standard from saved nineteen twenty three until next week to I guess until. The Bretton Woods Agreement is broad view is that gold is is a way of creating artificial scarcity that this limits the government's ability to do things with the actual resources. It has its disposal and that by focusing on monetary sort of accounting principles instead of the real resources of society, they are losing sight of what their their society is capable of producing. They think they're going to run out of money and in some cases, it's see if they're on gold they will but they have all of these trees they have all this lumber, they can produce they. Steel they can I guess you don't mind steal you alloy, but they have all this iron you can mind They have these actual resources that can be put to use but they have this accounting problem that exists often the realm of money which is being used to prevent them from mobilizing their resources and. By nineteen, forty, two, he says, you know anything we can actually do we can afford but that's canes at his most sort of radical. By the end of his life he's he's really broken with the economics. Profession. As it existed certainly the turn of the twentieth century. Earlier on. I think he just thinks that this. If we manage the gold standard, well in one, thousand, nine, thousand, nine, hundred, nineteen, twenty, or nineteen, twenty one. Then we wouldn't have had a need for all of the Keynesian theoretical developments in economics that that followed I. Think Keynes believed. That countries could come together and figure out a way to cooperate and keep the gold standard from going off the rails and when it becomes clear that they can't you know by nineteen twenty, five, nineteen, twenty, six, he starts thinking about totally different systems I mean he starts endorsing tariffs, which makes totally totally freaks out his friends because tariffs is this the gold standard represents all of these this vision of the world and international harmony and stuff, but it's it's part of this broader free trade project. So canes just totally breaks with that that worldview in in is experimenting with different sorts of of policies that might be used to to fix it but. Because the the world will not cooperate in the way that he thinks that it ought to. He just thinks that the gold standard cannot be a system by which international comedy can be maintained. So that focus on real resources as opposed to the accounting that overlays real resources seems really important in a lot of Keynesian thought and then. Is really important for right now, I want to begin to continue following that thread through the rest of this conversation and maybe I should should ask it this way. Ensemble seems obvious that a country can do what it can actually do entity except money keeps track of it. Great. But the to the extent money is actually the thing preventing it from productively using the skills of its people or the resources it has access to. It's a real problem as canes begins to argue that the government can create productivity and prosperity. That goes beyond even the amount of money it's putting into the system. That's a big revolution. It's I. Think still the thing that we recognize him for today. But what was the the inside at the heart of that? What did he see there that other people are having trouble seeing? I think the first thing that he saw was just the political reality, he was a British. Citizen who wanted to alleviate all of these social ills in Britain but Britain was deeply indebted to the United States and so there was just no way to do what he wanted to do without bringing on deficits. So he starts just thinking about those deficits as maybe not such a bad idea and he becomes more emotionally committed to his social vision than to his his economic. Doctrine. When you get to the nineteen thirties though canes has been thinking about economics for a long time and he has advocated different reforms one after another that either have been rejected or have not worked. He thinks in the nineteen twenties that if they can just stabilize prices, for instance, that markets will work that that supply and demand will come to equilibrium and and democracy will flower. All over the world, they can't get people to even agree to manage the gold standard in such a way that it would stabilize prices they're looking at trade flows rather than than domestic prices because the world just becomes. So ungovernable canes thinks that there's there's a need to impose economic or that if you don't blame down the framework for people to have the sort of. Building blocks of a decent life decent society. Then you won't be able to do the sophisticated things that you want democracy to do, and so he he's looking at money as a tool of the state in he starts studying ancient currencies and and says, you know look we actually were wrong. We think that money started. In six hundred BC or so when people started stamping faces on coins, actually money is this older thing. It's an account keeping. System. That involves a debts and people are lending each other weakened in different resources much earlier, and and this is something that arises with the state itself, and so he starts to think about the state is something that in economics in general is something that arises out of statecraft itself that people don't exist in this world where they some sort of state of nature that you hear in a lot of you. Know sort of social contract liberal theory like cobs locker. So where we're I, there's there's the free exchange of goods and then then the sovereign sort of intervene slater and starts laying down the law instead canes starting to think about the economy as as an expression of statecraft, and then the question becomes well, how is the state legitimized because whether it's a dictatorship or democracy starts to matter quite a bit. Keynes doesn't dwell on that for very long during his lifetime because he's preoccupied with the problems of the depression and war, but galway does and so it's a sense much time and golfers in the book. But the basic point is that the economy is a creature of the state and when you read even neo liberal theorists over the last couple of decades, they are increasingly open to that that point of view saying that markets are things that are created by the state to fulfill specific purposes, and that's a that's an important breakthrough, but it also allows you to do all sorts of. Things that we would describe a socialist right if the market is is a creature of the state quite why have markets at all? You know the Soviet Union didn't there becomes the question of how you want to order society that goes not is not easy to answer. Finances are confusing the best of times but right now when the financial world is experiencing a ton of people, it's really hard to know what to do with your money. You can get the Info you need the smart money podcast. From Walt the show is hosted by a pair of bunnies experts Liz Weston, and Sean piles who breakdown weeks financial news in a way that is actually helpful and informative. Then they bring in a member of the nerdwallet network to answer the. Questions they've got for every possible topics like how to protect your retirement account. 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Polls show, Biden ahead of trump with almost a twenty point lead with women the message on reproductive freedom is clear and Joe Biden has an opportunity to lead by removing bans on coverage in his first budget and refusing to sign bills with hide restrictions. The time to hide is now paid for by American Civil, Liberties Union Inc rights for all dot org. We're in this position. Now, we have very high unemployment. We do not have fun fundamental financial panic here. What we have is an economy in which it is unsafe for people to do many of the things they did before by the time that is no longer true particularly in America a lot of those businesses and infrastructure will have failed I. Don't think we have. We are in any way prepared for the number of these businesses it will not survive this period. So you're GONNA have a lot of people whom in addition even once they are able to say be a massage therapist again or yoga teacher the business they were part of will be gone and it takes a Lotta time to start up to businesses and rebuild Clienteles and all of that. And we've all these social needs and were beginning to build up very high deficits again so What do you think canes looking at the situation would tell the next president like what would his what would is prescription be the biggest problem I think for canes. With the caveat that it's always dangerous to you know raise the dead here and interrogate them on problems today They never actually encountered during their lifetime. Canes is somebody who is. Important in the history of social thought largely for the way that he is used to legitimise policy-making after his death, he lost most of the policy battles during his lifetime. He became a major figure because people like all breath and presidents like you know Kennedy and Johnson and later Richard Nixon. Relied invoked his name to sort of justify decisions that they were. They were making. So I think it's really important to think about what he would. He would do in this moment but. He was concerned mostly with these sort of sort of psychological abstractions things like confidence things like uncertainty. He wasn't so much concerned with dollars and cents and hard deficit numbers and things like that. I think he'd look at our society and say look. People have lost faith in this government. I think to some extent. The election of Donald Trump is an expression that that loss of faith. But certainly the disastrous performance of the trump administration is is evidence of even deeper loss of faith trump. Yet, at that rally a couple of weeks ago and the thing that really struck me about that rally was not just that there was poor attendance but that trump was trying to rally hardcore supporters for whom no wearing masks and things like that has become a sort of marker of political identity and he still couldn't get people to come out. To the rally so that to me signify that even diehard trump supporters didn't believe what he was saying about the pandemic in the communications that are being made some of those results have just nasty participation from the trump administration but some of them are the result of incompetence among bureaucrats I think the CDC has had problems not just because of WHO's in charge of the CDC but because rank and file people have dropped the ball, I think the World Health Organization has the same the same issue. So there's a lack of faith in expertise and there's a lack of faith in the ability of. Our leaders to level with us about what's really going on. So rebuilding that trust is a very tricky thing. I don't pretend to have all the answers for that but I think you would start by giving people reliable information. So you don't say anything if you don't have something correct to say you're not certain about it and treat the pandemic. First and foremost, you will not get your economy back until you deal with the public health crisis and have a plan for how to deal with the public health crisis. We sort of went through this weird period where people were talking about reopening the economy because we wanted to prevent all of the deaths of despair that happened from high unemployment which. That's an important thing to keep in mind whenever you're talking about economic policy unemployment's not just you know a couple of weeks off from job. I mean this devastates people's lives. But the idea that you are going to be able to there was some clear off between economics and and public health was just silly the whole time we're seeing now it you don't have the public health problem under control the economy does not recover. So you need to deal with the public health problem first and foremost, and you have to restore people's faith in the ability of the government to handle that public health problem. But that's quite a bit of work right? That's that's much more than I think any president has had to confront certainly in my lifetime. But after that, you know we have all these other social problems in the United States cans was deeply worried about. Inequality because he felt like it prevented societies from hanging together that it jeopardized it for self interested reasons to jeopardize the the you know British aristocratic life that he enjoyed living. He's afraid the rabble would rise up and overthrow that and make it unavailable to people but but he he he sees inequality as this this moral issue more than a mathematical issue you'll. He's he's not concerned about the technical measurements of different wealth income gaps. He's worried about society just basically hang together and I think you look at the United States and say this is a country that does not seem to be hanging together particularly. Well, right now we're polarized some guy wrote a book about this. I don't know if you have been through it it's called why were polarized as various look at avoid discussions of polarization on the show I. See Divisive. I? Well said. But look. We're we're polarized all of these different all these different metrics, they almost any way you look at Americans were breaking into one or two or three different I guess you don't break into one different society, but two or three or four different different societies that don't really seem like they're they're engaged in the same social project. So you gotta find a way to create a sense of of of national purpose, and that's an idea that I think liberals in particular very uncomfortable with the United States liberals in the broad left liberal spectrum here That's something that we think of we associate with the conservative Jingoism with with the war machine and and the the invasion of Iraq but. We do not have a a sort of shared set of patriotic values for a national mission right now, the country is fundamentally divided in these different ways that I think are very dangerous and canes would have said we can attack that I with economic policy by bringing people closer together. Economically, you have to attack these enormous disparities of wealth between the super rich and the poor, and that's not just about getting people to a better standard of living. It's it's about making sure that they're engaged in the same political project so. That's something that I think Keynes would be talking about. But these are all long term issues right? You'RE NOT GONNA fix inequality in the first hundred days that you're an office. The main thing is to is to make people believe in in that you can do it that you are. You care about that idea in a way that that I don't think our leaders have have convinced us at least not over the last couple of presidencies I WANNA pick up onto threads in that and then and then frame what strikes me as of the very potent choice here. So a couple of things I think canes contributes to this discussion is that if you're a Konami is not Producing at its capacity. If you've if you've people if you have machines, factories, buildings that could be utilized are not being utilized. The government has a real role where can step in their particularly amidst massive amounts of uncertainty, and there's so much uncertainty about the future right. Now, the government can do something the private sector can't. It can say credibly we're going to do X. over the next ten years right? We're GONNA spend two hundred. Billion Dollars on road repairs and mass transit a year every year for the next ten years and people more or less believe that'll happen whereas like look at the stock market for two seconds right now it has no idea what's going to happen and of course, it doesn't like the WHO does right this is like Keynes's fundamental idea that like we actually have much less certainty about the future including markets and we like to pretend. But now I think you get into something really tricky with is and it goes to our utility versus platonic philosophy conversation. Here to as you could respond to this, you know, let's say, Joe, Biden wins in November and he comes in And is economists come to him and say look like we have eleven percent unemployment and let's not worry about the debt and deficit right now because that'd be crazy. Let's make sure money's getting into the economy. Now one way you could do it is to say we are going to offer a huge tax cut or more stimulus chiefs, right which is what we've been doing more or less up until now, right we we we had these twelve hundred stimulus checks and we could say you know what? That's going to go out every three months as long as unemployment is in any area where unemployment is above six and a half percent. Right, and now she's getting money into people's hands, and like you've the debate then of like whether or not the government should be spending all this money but I think there's no real debate over like what you're doing with the money. But then if you say Well you know what we have all these people were sitting around at home. We have all of these folks who had jobs. You don't have them anymore and we have this unbelievably pressing need to decarbonised our economy. And to like, let's put those things together and announce a massive green new deal investment plan. On the one hand that has the value of your building something without money right you've chosen a social purpose and you're using the government to mobilize resources in its pursuit and on the other hand in addition to all the debates you'd have in the tax cut about like should we spend all this money and do you trust the government and how will we administer at an all this stuff? You also have this fight over the purpose. Right is global warming thing is a green new deal just like a plot to bring socialism to America. Etcetera Etcetera, and that's for anything. Right. If we said, we don't have enough affordable housing in this country. Let's have a massive mobilization building housing. We know that people can't live in the places they need to live like you'd have all these fights about that. As a purpose right is out the government's rolls at the government's job like should this be local like you know should you really be able to up at zoning laws and so on and so my read of Canes is this is an incredibly potent time for the mobilization of national economic resources tied to a public purpose but also my Rita polarization literature is it's a very hard time to get. People to agree on a public purpose, and so it's much easier in some ways to default to just handing out money to people Because at least you don't have to fight it right? That's something that Obama tried to do at least partially in the stimulus where he thought it would reduce criticism if he made a big part of it, a tax cut as I'm I'm curious how you think you'd Parse that distinction and how we parse it today. There are so many points that you're raising with your questions as this is fun interview So canes had this ability to kill multiple birds with one stone He probably wouldn't like that metaphor because he's Kind of bird or he liked bird seed want to kill them is one of his critiques about the United States is that we didn't have enough birds in our countryside first taste but I certainly agree with you that he look at the climate crisis is your. An absolute emergency the way that he looked at German reparations as an absolute emergency after World War One I. Think he would also look at the breakdown of these international organizations as an emergency I. think the loss of credibility the WHO is heading the pandemic would would bother him. I think the breakdown of the European Union would be very distressing to him and I think that the deterioration of the relationship to the United States China would would really bother him and I don't think he would believe that you could fix those problems with tax cut the way that he approached uncertainty was that you can make people believe that tomorrow. Is GonNa be better than today, but you couldn't do that with just pep talks a you know Herbert Hoover tried that in the nineteen twenties and early Thirties ed and people just didn't believe him. They didn't just said, hey, any day now it's GonNa turn around and everything's GonNa be great and it just kept not turning around. You had to make people feel it materially. So he would be in favor of putting money in people's pockets just to to make them feel like they were they were taken care of but I don't think he would believe that that was a way of addressing the crises that that face us and. Frankly I don't think putting people putting money in people's pockets is a way of addressing the social crisis that that we face in the United States over race you know the racial wealth gap income gap. Those things are are very real but that's not the whole of of racism in America part of part of why racism remains so powerful. Is Because people live in separate worlds we have we have a functionally segregated society and putting money in people's pockets doesn't end segregation. So you need the money that's that's an important part of maybe building credibility in the in the broader project but that alone. Is Not, going to do the trick the question about things like a green new deal and in about how to repair these international relationships though they all rely on the ability to have a functional economy, you cannot do a green new deal where you're hiring people to reengineer the American infrastructure and economy. If you can't hire people to do work if they're gonNA get killed by going out in public. So you really do need to get a handle on the public health crisis in on communications with the public about under what circumstances you're GonNa pull back and under what circumstances you won't. See You you absolutely need a credible plan on that on that front and I think by the time we have another president that I'd be very surprised if donald trump is president January but I've been surprised before by then you the economy in the public health situation is going to be pretty terrible. Terrible. For a long period of time I think people will want to give the next president some credit, but you have to do something to make him believe it. He's on your side if it's Joe Biden but then you have to then you have to, you have to spend that credibility that political capital on the broader social project because. You can only cut checks for so long and checks could only can only accomplish so much and I think we've seen all that already in the in the pandemic. People have gotten checks in the pandemic. pissed off, they're really angry They're not just in the streets over the killing of George Floyd. You know unfortunately, those types of of killings happened all the time. In American society. We don't see uprisings unified across every American city as a result I really think the pandemic is it is a big part of that of that issue and people don't feel like they're being treated like like full citizens they feel like some people are being treated as we are more equal than others I think the way that we think of economics is being this this system of dollars and cents and money in numbers. Sort of makes us believe that if we put enough. Money. In numbers into the problem, we're GONNA get an equation that balances at the end of things are going to be okay. But actual, you know the glue that keeps society together as little more complex. You introduced me to this metaphor from canes where he's talking about something I think is really relevant right now which the idea that you can't just use monetary policy and easy money to stimulate an economy when people don't want to spend the money right when like if they don't see a reason to take out a loan than the fact that interest rates are low is not gonNA estimate the economy at his metaphor is. If I remember this correctly, you can't become fatter just by loosening your belt. which is a great. Great way of putting that. Something that worries me let's say that dull loses November and Democrats take the Senate and so they actually the capacity to govern. I worry that debt and deficit fears are going to roar back. Donald Trump has not been following I think traditional Keynesian on this where you know in an expansionary time, he has a run up to date on tax cuts for rich people and all kinds of stuff, and so there's already a kind of hi de GDP ratio. For what people are used to write and? Biden is somebody who at various times has been he comes out of a wing of the Democratic Party is traditionally very concerned about that and deficits. He listened to a lot of people who are concerned about about those issues and that could be if Democrats decide to worry about that right now, which I don't think they should could be a real constraining factor. Now, a couple of minutes ago you give a line. Paraphrasing from canes that anything we can do we can afford to do. Now I. Heard Somebody say that today I'd say Aha like that's modern monetary theorist like that is a kind of approach to to the economy I associate with M. T.. I'm not GonNa make you answers one in terms of canes go you're an economic journalists what you you? You do even when you're not writing about canes. A T like what do you think about 'em Mt and do you think that's the way sort of like that's the framework of you the economy through or the or from we should be the economy through. By view it is that it's A bit of a slippery definition of what constitutes mt to the extent that M. T. overlaps with a honest interpretation of Keynes I think MT makes a lot of sense but it depends on which empty person you're talking to. You know they're these Australian 'em tears who just can't Stan- canes there are people like Stephanie Kelton and and Nathan Tank who love canes. I often find myself agreeing with Stephanie Kelton in Nathan US philosophy. Perfectly honest when Nathan in particular starts getting into the weeds on Federal Reserve operations, he He is capable of losing me so. You know I don't want to speak. For 'em. Mt As you know, I don't want to issue a verdict on the entire field, but the type of things that that certainly Stephanie and Nathan Talk About I think are derived very explicitly from a holistic reading of not just the general theory of employment interest and money that the big magnum opus everybody remembers from canes but but also his treatise on money that that created by about six years and that understanding were Keynes's is coming from from the perspective of the role of money within the state and and then the way that uncertainty and money caused problems for modern economies that all strikes me as is quite plausible. So I think. They're broad project I, I find very, very reasonable. Any specific issue like anything else you know I I'm not gonNA subscribed absolutely everything Stephanie says right she might have some ideas that I disagree with but but in general the the view that that we need to focus on real resources I mean I think they've been extremely effective at communicating that idea. and. You know you mentioned Biden I actually am not that worried about Biden the people that I'm worried about are in the house bind strikes is pretty flexible guy intellectually I don't think he has deep ideological commitments especially on economic policy but within the house you know Nancy Pelosi is very committed. Deficit Hawk and and they recruited a lot of people who take great pride in in taking the deficit. Seriously this is this is a moral commitment to them the way You know abiding by the gold standard, a moral commitment to two people in the nineteen twenties. So Amanda if you're worried about the house on this way about the Senate. Yeah right There's this. What's unfortunate is the economics profession has has actually adjusted quite a bit over the last ten years since since the financial crisis, you still have the usual suspects saying that the things you would expect them to say, but there are a lot of other economists who were saying well, know automation isn't the reason that we lost all these manufacturing jobs deficits don't seem to lead to inflation. I We have a much more capacity to do what we want to do than. We thought we had in nineteen, ninety, five and. In a lot of ways, the political ideology is is still locked in nineteen ninety-five even as the economics profession moving is moving past it Can we talk about this for a second I? Think there's something really this was surprising thing to me about the campaign. If. You would ask me five years ago ten years ago. I would have told you that Jason Furman and Larry Summers were on the issue of debt and deficits well to the right of Nancy Pelosi and say Bernie Sanders. And then. You've ferment in summers and others of what I consider the mainstream, Democrat Economics world writing these pieces about how deficits Bowie should change our approach deficits. They cruelly don't matter nearly as much and yet Pelosi and even in his campaign to some degree, sanders are still running a very tight form of Pero like everything you do like has to be paid for over the course of the period in which you're doing it now maybe in power, they wouldn't take that and that's a political posture for both of them. I think that's possible as well, but it is a striking. Thing to me where the democratic economists who I think used to be constrained on these things have actually moved on the issue of debt and deficits a lot because they look at the situation and they don't see an inflation risk and a lot of even quite liberal democratic politicians haven't moved on it at all possibly because they still feel themselves responding to the politics of the issue which haven't moved but I mean sanders had Kelton on his staff for a long period of time and she remains I think an adviser I think she's on some of task forces that he spun. Up With Biden and yet he was still when you like I was always struck that he didn't say on more things like the answer to how we're GONNA pay for this is not like that was never heard Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders this camp and it, but that is something that I think more and more democratic conferencing at least in certain context to a certain extent, you can't do this for something as big as a Medicare for all because you get into a real resources problem and like money is useful is like an important constraint there but you could do. It with say certain green new deal investments are other like that. Yeah. sanders it's very It's very perplexing because of course, he keeps hiring Stephanie Kelton for these things and you can just you know you just know Stephanie Kelton is pulling her hair out where he would. He would say these things but you know I think to some extent sanders uses scarcity to sort of heightened the intensity of the conflict between the rich and the rest. If we have to take money from somewhere, we've gotta take it from those guys, right so there's a certain populist kind of. Appeal to that, where you know we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA, get the money where you get it from the rich guys, the oligarchs who were wrecking the country. So not only are you gonNa have a better life but those guys are gonNA come down to and I think that don't speak for Stephanie Kelton everything but Stephanie Kelton supports taxing the wealthy for the sake of inequality, but she doesn't support taxing the wealthy to be able to pay for. Social Services, she just doesn't think that that's that's important and in a lot of cases, the stuff we need particularly unlike the climate side it, there's just not enough money in the rich people to pay for it all. So you'll have to tax them because he to tax them not because it's GonNa. It's GonNa pay for your goods and services I. Know Sanders was on the Budget Committee for decades. So I just think he's been in this Mindset for a long time and it's it's hard for people to to break those those old habits I think with closely in in. So many of the Democrats have come aboard for a long long time the the grand bargain that Obama tried to implement in in two thousand eleven and was ultimately stymied by Paul Ryan, on We raise taxes on the rich cut social security and Medicare was seen as a very virtuous thing in. Washington you know. Bill Clinton tried to do it and ultimately got stymied by the by the Linski scandal? It was seen as even even George W Bush tried to do it in his own way. The idea that the responsible thing is to to stick it to the poor in these entitlement programs, but also stick it to the rich by raising tax rates. A few points is responsible governance deeply ingrained in Washington, in this way that it's not ingrained I think in the in the public at large, there's there's a separate community that thinks about policy things that thinks the rest of the world thinks about. Policy in this particular way and they they've been thinking about it for so long it's just it's it seems era responsible to think about it any other way and? I get really frustrated because obviously, I'm not a huge fan of the grand bargain I. Don't like pay go but you know this is a common thing and usually takes a disaster to get people to break from from that orthodoxy. The gold standard wasn't just. About gold about exchange rates. It was about you know what seemed reasonable to people. They were really really enamored with this. Way of of managing the economy and they could not be made to break from it until it broke itself and so. It may be the case that the corona virus crash is the thing that that that breaks and makes everybody a change change their minds. I have a hard time imagining a worse economic disaster because this is GONNA be with us for years and you know I covered the two thousand eight financial crisis as a banking reporter. So I like I know how crashes work we're talking about this as. If it's a viral thing. But at a certain point, you know if you lose confidence in the financial system, things get even worse. So the the capacity for this economic damage to build on itself is extremely dangerous and and out there I just have a hard time understanding this. This generation of politicians it feels to me like the public has moved past them even if they're kind of afraid. I. Felt like the primary was a a a strange experience. Democratic electorate was just. It was just afraid the whole time you. You'd see these polls that show people in the Democratic Party overwhelmingly supporting Medicare for all but as soon as Elizabeth Warren starts backing it for instance they run away from her She goes from being with the most popular candidate in the race to the least popular candidate in the race it it felt to me like the the public just doesn't believe that progress is possible in this way that is that I think crisis like this is extremely dangerous because it can compound that feeling one thing that hits both directions of this both the sort of Keynesian purpose driven economics but also. Things like MTV where one of the key ideas there is that look tax increases have a role but the role they have is that as inflation begins to go up because using too many resources, use tax increases and other kinds of fiscal tools like that to slow the economy down, which is something that we've done before during wars and you know came up in actually comes up in your book a little bit around war. But one of the warnings of canes or the themes of it is you can't take the politics out of economics and when I look at the world from that perspective, what I see is how many bad political decisions we make in an effort to protect economics from politics but also many good decisions we can't make because our politics doesn't quite. Work Right people don't among other things trust that they can get agreement on a big national purpose, and so it's easier to come up with the stimulus bill or an economic mobilization bill that doesn't try to ask that question or shirt. There's a lot to be said for an approach to the economy that takes real resources more seriously than kind of the. The the money fight obstruction for it. But if you don't believe in the teeth of inflation, you could use these tools to so to slow the economy down well, then that's a reason you would want the Federal Reserve to retain that power because they could just jack up interest rates and you begin to break the back of inflation and and keep. The economy boundaries like as part of our effort either insulate economics politics in one view of it or are part of our inability to restrain economics to politics. We end up in a lot of second best solutions, third-best solutions because you don't have the decision making capacity and the responsiveness to marry our economic management and our political decision making in real time. I think one of the One of the issues that people got rotate generally around this during the primary was talking about about the supreme. Court. because. Even if you do get just just to be clear here, guys the Huffington Post Guy doesn't like Donald Trump in in favor of Democrats winning the next election But but you know even if even if you do get Democrats in charge of the Senate and in the Presidency it's not an author Supreme Court is willing to cooperate with any of the things that need to happen in order to save the planet from. Climate Death It's certainly not clear that the supreme court it'd be willing to cooperate on a a desegregation agenda. It's certainly not clear that the supreme, court willing to to cooperate on a new sort of international vision for free trade that breaks from the wwl order. So all of these big problems that exist are things that the court would be exercising a sort of. Undemocratic check on and so people were talking about Supreme Court reform or packing the courts. That's something I think is necessary for forgetting to where we we need to go to save the planet but we have to be clear what we mean by that we're we're talking about an undemocratic solution to an undemocratic problem hacking the courts is just just Allowing. The Biden. Administration to to run roughshod over the the judicial system But if you don't do that you know the world. So I I think these these big questions about democracy. are going to be with us for a long time and I don't have a grand theoretical answer to them I i. think I think you have to treat the crises in front of you and do your best. But I think you know what particular decision makes sense in in one year on one issue is not necessarily going to provide us with useful principle to appeal to for another decision six months down the road. I think we're entering a we've been in frankly and age of of crisis for the last fifteen years at least and and those crises are going to accelerate. What Corona virus is going to do is not just about unemployment I mean there are international systems in alliance is they're going to break down. There are wars that will start over this things are going to get really really difficult in the next president will have an awful lot on on his plate. I well, if you don't have a a single theoretical path forward, delays have three book recommendations you can give to the audience. Yes. Yes. One of my favorite books on. That I read, do doing the research for this. This book was a book called Globalists' by a historian Quinn Slobodan as the history of neoliberalism, and it discusses sort of where the theoretical and political life of neoliberalism comes from. I just think it's really readable, but also extremely detailed in rigorous study of people like average, Hayek and. Milton Friedman. Another one is book called the Deluge by Adam twos Adam Tuesday historian at Columbia I. Often disagree with them on policy points that interpretive points, but he is just the I. I know if there's anybody better doing financial history out there he is an extremely rigorous researcher who looks at. Economic crises as Of Internationalism and foreign policy I think we're kind of accustomed to looking at economics is this the spear that's divorced from other stuff from social policy in from foreign policy and twos work really shows the way economics and domestic economic decisions tied up in foreign policy decisions the delusions about the the period between the wars. Between the World Wars His book crash is also just a fantastic history of of the financial crisis. And I'm a big sci-fi Dork I. Absolutely love Space Opera Nova by Samuel Delaney I think it's It's it's just a terrific read. I'm. GonNa add one book argumentation. This we've talked a lot in the show about John, Kenneth Galbraith, and Richard Parker wrote a biography number of years ago. That's one of my. To exactly WANNA to say it's like my top five books but it's definitely one of my favorite biographies ever and I really people want to learn more about him because I think he's a somewhat unjustly neglected economic and Liberal thinker in the twentieth century I really really recommend the Parker biography of Golbright. Yoga it's so good. It's so good. Your book is the price of peace that Carter thank you very much. Thanks for having me as well. Thank you for being here. This is the first episode in this series, more episodes will be coming out every Thursday. Until you're done, we're going to be looking at climate change and how to rebuild green deal that's going to be really good episode we're looking at kids who looking at you bi and cash transfers and just giving people the the the wealth to rebuild the economy themselves with a lot coming in this stay tuned as always thank you to where she Karma for researching Jeffrey Gelb producing the Honcho Vox media podcast production. 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