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"gehrig google oscar" Discussed on Good Seats Still Available

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15:06 min | 7 months ago

"gehrig google oscar" Discussed on Good Seats Still Available

"Back to our conversation in your research and as you as you get a better sense of Charleston the player what was what is your sense of the quality of play say relative to quote Unquote Organized Baseball at the time. Yeah not as good better depends. That's Yeah No. That's a great question. So they're there to two things I'll say eh one with just respect to Oscar We do have stats from one. Hundred fifty eight plate appearances. He had major league pitching as batting average. A little bit higher fire is on basis. Just take lower in. Its liking his way higher. So he he he kill Major League pitching to. But there's other things what are those are what exhibitions or situations where Major League and Negro Leagues were playing each other like the dynamics behind those because I I'm very ignorant about sort of those shall we say cross pollination matches game series. This is something I didn't really realize and I'd probably a lot of people don't but it was extremely odd. Aw Man After the regular season was over for so-called organized all like you say aim for the Negro Leagues for the for promoters loaders to gin up a team of all stars and a team of white all stars and put them against each other either in just one city or as traveling show right a barnstorming show all so and neither great players dumb barges major leaguers hand out talking about lefty grove and altered. Johnson Jimmie Foxx players like that Lou. GEHRIG Google Oscar himself played against so those those are the contests are talking about usually in October Bleeding maybe even into November Win Those Games would have taken place interesting okay so but but then exhibition that quality of but obviously obviously we're not talking about water down quote unquote white teams right. You the these are. These are head-to-heads and so these stats aside from the most. We'll start right okay. So so that okay. Clearly some standout them and he make experiments part. I'll here's the thing so sorry. Two more things really. Illuminate this so. Do we know that in those contests. Black teams won the majority of the time a little over fifty percent. I don't remember exactly what it is. Say Fifty two percent however we're on the other side if you look at how all black teams fared against teams different levels college teams military teams AAA AAA teams and all down the line. Because they're winning percentages. Then you look at the winning percentages of of White Major League teams playing exhibition contests. You can still save levels which which also happened. Frequently in this era the white teams have higher. Winning percentage is in every category. Not by a lot but by little so what I would say answers is. Your question is when you look at all the evidence. The White Major League teams had more depth Overall that competition petition the White Major Leagues. Because of that fact was a little bit better. Just the top from the top to the bottom of the roster they were deeper than Your your ordinary your average Negro League team which would have say the top seven or eight players. I would say were major league quality but it'd be feeling out the roster with guys who would be probably in the minor leagues In you know so-called organized baseball and that just makes sense when you think about it right. They're just population differences. Here are are there just aren't many players for the Negro Leagues Teams to select from. So that's the answer of the top of the rosters were totally every be this good And the best teams could definitely have competed in the major leagues and comported themselves. Well but overall probably just a tick Take more but again and I've got a couple of examples in the book. Of course they elude me right this moment but I clearly he got some attention attention Despite the segregated nature of baseball at the time from the white teams white structure know about as play. Yeah absolutely I mean first of all. I actually wasn't that uncommon for White let's say the Charleston would dolphin played at Forbes field. Even before he was in Pittsburgh there'd be a lot of games played it for it wasn't uncommon for a honus Wagner or a Paul Waner or somebody like that to in the stands watching and these guys were interested you know they they wanted to to see you know how how good these African American players were and so that's where there's some of these observations come from later and then even more come from guys who played against Oscar and that That's happening very early on in nineteen eighteen. Fifteen the very beginning of his career really until its end and Not Just Oscar but a lot of other Negro Leagues players so they they see firsthand. That's just how good he is. And how good his peers are. And they're not. It's not very shy at least some of them about reporting it. You know about saying these guys are every bit as good as you know You know what we have You know and some of them say One man in particular. I think it was Hollis Thurston who who hails down a former Negro League player at one point ask played with Charleston. He says yeah he was my manager actually and Thurston who had been a pitcher in the major said I I tell you. I- Barnstorm begins him and he was better than any other player I've ever played against. I'm counting Ruth Cobb Hornsby and all of them so He's not the only one say that kind of thing so yeah it was A lot of testimonials from white players based on what they saw well and ownership ownership to and and and maybe we can kind of you know sort of speed up on one of the tracks here. 'cause it'll become obvious in the forties and I WANNA come back to Hildale and Pittsburgh in the second but but it didn't escape notice and I guess I really a constantly. Curious about is during this era. Let's say the twenties in thirty in particular before integration and before you know realities it finally broke through and kind of corrected. Some of the worst in hindsight is just as craziness of segregation. How how what was the you know the the Party line I guess versus the realities right because it is clear that you're getting at even even the book right that some of these players in the quarter go to organized major league recognizing darn good these players are and and not only what if but how how can we sort of you know rectify and or harmonize this kind of stuff? Because the players are players in baseball is you know always a sport beyond arguably color degree question. I mean and you when you phrase it that way I realized Probably more pointedly they have and I wrote the book just how much tension those testimonials probably created for the Party line which was The Twenties Eastern in in the thirties. That they aren't as good you know they're just not as prepared You know maybe they don't have the discipline disciplined to play this level. Whatever I mean that that would be sort of the official racist Party line then you have sort of backing that up? Some sort of consequentialist arguments right like well. The fans would never accept you know whites and blacks playing together on the eighteen. So that's why we have to hold this or Well they might. But this other white players certainly wouldn't and you know and that's just an super bowl obstacle so we'll have to wait until things change in the south so those to be sort of the more hardline answers. Well I guess the financial instability of of a lot of the leagues and the play and stuff to probably didn't help because either because despite any great playing and all that kind of stuff and all these exhibitions. It's still it just seemed like there was a litany of leagues and teams sort of coming and going and and coming back and not a lot of great right so the very conditions That are responsible for segregation in organized. Baseball are also responsible for that sort of instability in the black game right. Yeah so but it provide you write a convenient excuse. Well they can't even get their you now. They're leagues really together. I mean Is this something really need to take seriously. You might hear some argument along those lines which Very Ironic stances. GimMe all right. So let's get back to Charleston specifically so give me a sense now. What what is this Hildale thing all about because that's that's even a smaller? The market than Harrisburg I. I guess I think certainly by today's actually okay stored Elvia Hillsdale is Philadelphia It's Darby Pennsylvania we should as as an inner ring suburb of Philadelphia. So that why they were called Philidelphia. I have no idea They never even got really a real nickname. Ain't sometimes you recall the daisies but oftentimes just called Hillsdale's love but they were essentially Philadelphia's black team until the Philadelphia stars come along in the nineteen forties. Interesting okay so let's talk about hit that phase of his career not only there but then also Pittsburgh seems like this is really where a lot of things started to kind of you know Really stand out Charleston across a lot of different sort of people's radars. Yeah he's signing in both places celebrated as a major coup Hildale will that Nineteen Twenty eight club when he was there along with Martinez Hugo was this multi-talented. Kinda Shohei ohtani Flash Babe Ruth of his time using a pitcher and hitter great at both were the leaders of that team and a great great expectations super high expectations and Charleston. Was the manager manager. We got off to a slow start and very impatient owner mandate Ed bolden Fired Charleston as a manager like a month into the season and things sort of went south for the team Charleston still put up a good season but his days were numbered with them He still gets through the nineteen twenty nine season with them but in one thousand nine hundred ninety when he has a chance he he pulls to homestead grays based Peru. Maybe this is a good example. Though perhaps an another push push pin on that what of his personality right there plenty of examples in the book of give our audience sense of sort of what drove ham beyond is play because it seems like he had some interesting moments in time and he wasn't as you said earlier not shy about outstanding up for himself or others or or mixing it up so to speak. What was it just a competitive streak was a a personal sort of thing in his background? what what drove him so to speak in terms of. Yeah no he was a great question so he was Give he had had flares of temper which he inherited I pretty honestly from at least his mother who wants created a deputy in our on her doorstep with an axe So she must have. I've been giving flair to temper as well But he goes on an angry man so he was intensely competitive on the field. There's also really charming and charismatic and well liked and popular and cheerful. So you have to keep both of these polls together in your mind to understand who Charleston was so to give you a great example and nineteen. I think it was nineteen twenty thirty nine. He's playing for Hillsdale. And it gets the homestead grays and the owner slash manager. Cum Posey comes out on the field to argue call and to get into a fight. CHARLESTON GETS INTO FIGHT WITH ANY CHARLESTON. slugged him in the jaw right well by the end of that season Posey has invited Charleston to come barnstorming with them and signed him for team next year so he was the kind of guy who could hit you and you still like that. That's the best way to put it Charleston. You know he was Wanted him on your side and there was something just are likable about the guy. Even that he was just an medically competitive on the baseball diamond. Also yeah it also seems that in the thirty s going to Pittsburgh and the Crawford's in particular he also also started as exhibit a flare. Not only for his play in his managerial talents. But also scouting you can give us a sense of just how successful and stand out. The Crawford's were in the early thirties because he was helpful in putting together arguably one of the best teams of love either or set of Baseball League in their early thirties. It's exactly right. Yeah so the guy who starts the Pittsburgh offered offers At least put them into the big time is a gangster named Gus Greenlee and he he was a big time team and he Lures I Charleston away from the grace to come. Be the manager of the coffers but again it's Charleston's job but together the roster that they already had Satchel page. The Charleston helps convince Josh Gibson. Come over from the grays and Cool Papa. Bell comes on board and Judy Johnson and Judd Wilson joined the team mid year. Those those future hall tamers. This team was bristling with talent. Can give you even even to the to the to the the Casual Negro League Observer. That's that's a that's stellar lineup. Yeah and it was. It was Charleston's job to You know with the team manage them get paid to show up for Games on time. I am and You Know Mentor Gibson. And all the rest. So yeah that gives you a sense of his leadership A lot of the players on that team in oral interviews he's conducted later. Reflect back and say How tight they were as a team? How connected they were and Charleston had a big role in that you know he was very you know terrific and the way he ran team he was his old schools? They got you know if you were if you were on time. He was ten minutes too late. You know but he also stood up for them and and Really helps bomb them. oftentimes and intense situations arise on the road. If they were barnstorming south for instance you know. It wasn't unusual usual for there to be some sort of Some tense moments with fans or something like that added with cops for that matter So he had a big part heart and making that Crawford's team what it was but it was one of the most celebrated Negro Leagues Teams of all time. Can you describe for audience..

Charleston Baseball Major League Pittsburgh Negro League White Major League Oscar GEHRIG Google Oscar White Major Leagues Casual Negro League Observer Ruth Cobb Hornsby Crawford Josh Gibson Forbes field Jimmie Foxx Hollis Thurston Hildale Philidelphia Philadelphia