2 Episode results for "Freddie Moore"
Drawn To It Podcast - EP 44 - Ron Ferdinand - Illustrator for Dennis The Menace
"My guest today is ron ferdinand. He made an entire career at avila. Strating dennis the menace created by his mentor. Hank ketcham right here on drawn to a podcast. How do you become the illustrator for dennis. The menace okay. You got an hour and a half No only yeah. Absolutely no i well okay i i. I'll just give you the quick. I went to i went to catholic. Ranked grammar school and high school had no art at no art. And on my own i was. You know disney fanatic. So then i went to saint. John's university which is a catholic college queen's did liberal arts did that for half a year and then i decided now. This isn't for me. So i went to work at macy's in manhattan and then i went to the school of visual arts after that so i studied animation and then i did three years there and then. I kinda didn't have a bachelor's program yet they just had three years of you know technical stuff and then you're out so the year i left. They started their bachelor's program. Which would be starting next year. So i decided i talked to all my professors there and they said nah. Nobody cares about your bachelor's. This isn't the seventies seventy five seventy. I'm not sure what she started the best but so they all said no one cares about your sheepskin. Just wanna see you work. I wouldn't have had to come back and take a whole year of liberal arts just to get my ba. So i decided not to so my dream was to work for disney at that time so when one of the last things that happened in my third year there was no call came to the school now and he gave a lecture shown all his work. And then this is. I've been there for three years right so i was thinking animation. I was taking like four different automation classes and one of them. I had to make a film so in that film. I had to do all my own cells. I had a paint myself. I had to do all the technical stuff. This is back in the seventies when you know so spent so much time doing that. That i kind of got side tracked on what was probably really important which was drawing. I was taking life drawing. I was taking life story and everything but my focus was on. You know i. I just kind of got sidetracked so i had to do this. Film had to get it done by the end of the you know the school year and it was on the beatles. Some you never give me money. So i took the you know the the Last thing and i have road. So i'm i'm there painting myself up at night. I'm doing everything. So mill call comes and he says what all disney wants to see. Is your life lifetime. This is all they care about so here. I have this film which. I don't even know. I still haven't on sixteen millimeter. In like is interesting point. You can get a digitized at walmart. Okay yeah if you ever care to. Yeah yeah. I just found that out two weeks ago. Sharing it with all everybody. I know who has student film on a real in a shoebox in the garage. So i know so anyway. So milk call says you know all they care about. Is your life drawing. If you can handle the body can do anything this. So so i had graduated and So first thing. I did was send all my life trying to disney. You know so often that you know being with my seventeen drawings all my models sketches and everything so i send it out there waiting for the call. So applebee's later. I get a letter from them. Sending all my stuff back and saying you know you'll work your work. You're drawing his good. But we're looking for michelangelo's. Yeah so i mean you know my life drawing was okay it was you know. But i i guess. They didn't see what they were looking for. So they said you know. Thank you for your submission. so then i was crushed man. what so. I decided that. I'm gonna focus on my life. Drawing went to the art students. League which is in manhattan and there was a guy. There gusta burger who was like this european fine artist but he was teaching lifetime so i decided to focus on that and then i switched for year. I studied my thinking that if after the year is over disney know directly all anatomy so But then it gets tracked. I got married. I am so. I was working. I was working at the time of the screen. Printing place doing Electrtonics circuit boards will evening printed circuit boards. They're just the actual board itself linson screen printing and stuff and it wasn't really satisfying aesthetically. Or but anyway. So i did so then. I kind of let it go. So then i little years not going on to seventies late seventies into the so. Then i at this. I was submitting freelance. I was trying to comic strip. I was trying so. I have a whole whenever i speak. I bring all my rejection lives and have all these rejection letters from oppose. I mean the new york times not the times the new yorker magazine's were up in trying and he knows i was Even the syndicates trying to get syndicated and So anyway that went on and then so the nineteen eighty one. The nineteen eighty i. I used to subscribe to cartoon falls magazine. Yep join her so anyway so up. I got i got it every four times a year. Whatever it was and so we get this one issue in its Has interview with hank. And he's saying how he had just moved back to the beach from geneva. He lived in geneva fifteen years. And you know. I mean was starting like the training program so it was amazing because he put his address in there in the in the so. I'm reading this thing. And i'm going. What the heck you know. I've been spending stuff by mail. I was like at this point. I was just anything out there. So couple of dennis books paperbacks and i just did about four or five pages of sketches the characters. I mean as as well as i could. I just principled them sent pencils so i'm you know meld them out and you know i thought that's the end of this. You know get it can scratch off my list so couple of weeks later i get a letter in the mail has denison medicine the corner so i you know opened it off citing so it's from hank and he's saying you know ron got your samples. They showed promise whatever you send me your resume and they Photograph you know so okay. So as far as a resume. I didn't really have. When i had done a couple of little freelance things. Local people in the area so threw those in and my photograph and mail those out. And i thought all right here we go no experience. I'm done i'm not. Yeah so a couple of weeks later. Another this okay. I'm sending you a couple of gags. Slips search direct goes. Take your time. There's no rush with these illegals. I've already higher to other artists. But i'm looking for the maybe a possibility for a third so anyway so sat down state up the whole night. Got it out the next day. I didn't care what he said about. No hurry yep so. I rough those out. I'm elder mount and then okay so couple of weeks. He was taking his time. You know so. I was like stressing out so the couple of weeks later. Whatever it was. I get a our. You did a good job any sense his corrections on my rupp's you know you know. Very quick marker stuff and instance so there is a possibility. So i'm thinking of flying you out here. That was living in queens at the time in an apartment and my wife and i struggling. You know funky queens. You know So he said. I wanna fly you on here for two weeks and put you to work and see what happens so i said would you be interested. He goes now goes unless you were thinking of working. You know across the country. Which i really can't. Because he had just come back to to move back there with the intent of setting up studio in he was geneva. All these comics are going out on. The sunday was being done in By bug in new jersey and so he really had no he was just all this stuff is going on with his name on it so he wanted to get everybody under one roof. He wanted to get together. You know and So yeah so he said okay thinking working cross country. It's really. that's not my name. So whatever so i said absolutely so he flew me out. Was there for two weeks and He was working on the marvel comic. I think they have like three or four issues done ready. He hired two artists ring. Now they the fact is training so the which worked in my benefit because he was spending so much time training these people and he was very meticulous. Weren't meeting in line and you went out a month. Whatever it was so lucky break for me. He needed a third person. So that that comic Was like a marvel comic. That was a traditional superhero type comic or was it a dennis. The menace dinner vomit. Yes it was denison marvel strictly out with. Just i think more of it was kind of branching out of that time and they were trying different title so yeah so we have done a fuss. The young pines comic book company done sixties and seventies. You know denison. Hawaii still like the one of the number one comics ever you know. Popularity wise signed a one year deal with marvel to do this comic. So it's gonna be twelve issues twelve or thirteen issues to see how it went. So yeah so. I started come in the first day and i'm like he's still. I was really stressed. You know i didn't so free tool. One of his writers picks me up at the airport with his wife and take me. This is sunday. I get there on a sunday. Thanks me out. drives me out to be to hank's house ushered into his studio beautiful studio owned back. All it was magnificent. He's sitting there. So i come upstairs and they're sitting there on this little email just gets scared out of my mind. Yeah yeah yeah. So he's sitting behind in his chair behind his drawing board. You know it goes ron of know. Nice to meet you and everything okay. I've made resitvo reservation to you with this hotel. He didn't have the studio at that. Point was he was renting office space in carmel valley which was probably a half hour away and ran across the street. Was this hotel. So he's a ugo out there. For instance drive you out and Check in and then. I'll be in tomorrow morning so the sunday night so i'm out there going. Oh my god. Fritz rushing off at hotel. I'm sitting. I bet you didn't sleep while at all so i call my wife. Who's in new york. And they said you know. I'm really stressed. I don't know what's going to happen here so anyway. So i had the thing so the next day i go in and one of the artists was there and he was sitting there so i introduced myself. Nice kid nice get was we'll younger than the brian. Lamb brian lamb. And anyway. So he tells me he now so he goes. Okay yeah so. We introduced sheldon. I'm looking at his work is there. He was amazed he was very talented. Boy and i'm looking at a stuff. Okay this looks great. I'm still stressed. Because i'm going. You know hank it really know anything about you. What i can do yet so brian. I'm sure you didn't know much about what you could be apps. Yeah i mean. I drew the characters but know i kinda you know. And they were kind of design like ankles and disney guy. Yeah i had you know. He was all mickey mouse proportions on dentist. That around the shape body and everything. So you know. I kinda have that but anyway so then karen comes in. She was the other honest and hang. Takes us to lunch before anything takes us to lunge them. We go onto this place called the criminal valley tennis club just down the road. So who's there. Clint eastwood as they are having lunch. You know Murph nurse griffin member merv griffin. He's there and his white shorts and white shirt. You know so. We sit down the bread game so the five of us at the table and clint eastwood come dobruna goes. Hey how's it going. You know those clan this you know introduce the other end. This is ron from the arc. And you know. I'm sitting there going. Oh my god you know. An emerging comes over so so we have lunch back and then he sits down and starts going over their stuff so his he was at the table and then he pick his belen pad lane over there. So i'm looking i'm going to. There's up was amazing so he to kind of just shredded saying no. This is just you know. And not just talking. He's like pennsylvania and stuff. So i'm watching this going. Oh my goodness you know. And so we went through that day so then he leaves. He goes okay ron. I'll give page to start doodoo and i'll see you tomorrow. So he leaves. And i go back to my room that night. And i'm like freaking out. Yeah he tore this up. I mean i would be so like so. I call my wife and you haven't even had your first day yet known wall. No production exactly. Yeah yeah all my wife. And i said listen. This isn't working work when he sees how untalented. I am so going to send me back so i was. I was by myself in. I don't. I'm not good on traveling. Traveling traveling alone so i'm sitting there going. I'm going to call them in the morning. I'm gonna be honest with them going to say thank you for the opportunity. Hang but you got the wrong guy easily. So the next morning comes and So i call. I call his house. I you know so against machine. This is like eighty one so the we're answering machines. Because i was thinking back and going wait a minute. They're answering machines and eighty one. Of course they were so call us at his answering machines i said. Well i'm not gonna leave a message. You know so i hang up so all i can do is so i walked across was right across the road. Walk in and brian sitting there. And i'm telling you. I don't know if this is gonna work so i look back on. This and i was like twenty nine at the time he was like twenty. I think and he gives me the best advice. I could have gotten that money goes on no matter what what you do. Hank is going to correct even no matter how good you are so just wealthy way through just sit there and do some work and then having corrected and so he said don't worry he goes. We're all you know. We're all in the same boat so he can relax me which i did time later. I sent brian. If you really say you know really innocent grandma so hankinson i did some roxy corrected it it was no you know it was anything more than they were getting so i went off the two weeks so the the last day of the tweet goes well run. What do you think you won. You want the job you know. So i said absolutely so that was in august so he goes. Okay go home. I had an apartment so i didn't have any. I mean. i just had a few little furniture. I had no how valor anything so. We sent her. Come back in september. I'll make arrangements for you. Would you back up at the same hotel until you find a place that was so so when home sold everything came out. That was the beginning. You know that. I can relate to so many of those points of throughout your story The anxiety moment yes. I think a lot of artists can people excuse me. People don't understand when when you're an artist thor's hobbyists artists. That never have that dream job aspiration but when you're an artist seeking a job that in your eyes is way far beyond your ability right and you happen to get in there somehow. You you take on this impostor syndrome of. I don't deserve to be here. They're gonna find out on the fake in and fire me but which completely insults the people that brought in. Yeah because you're saying you're not smart enough to figure out your screening process. You shouldn't be talking to me right now. You know what. I mean like it. Totally insults them. People don't realize what what emotional ride it can be for. And and how the night before you know we will run through our mind A series of scenarios where. We're we're not coming through where we're not performing at our best The gig is up all that kind of stuff. We don't sleep the night before our first day on our dream job. I had that when. I got hired at disney. I mean why. I had it for the weeks leading up. 'cause they kept shortlisting people so every week. If you survived you go through another round of shortlisting and it. It really is of an up and down ride that you know. It's hard to describe to people who are not. I guess my point is i. Don't think my father who raised his family by being a sheet metal. Tradesmen would necessarily have those moments of panic and fear and imposter syndrome. The way a creative person would you know. There's an emotional connection to our job. Yes because it's it's all i mean we're it's all imagination through fingertips to paper right right. So yeah i. I think that's amazing by the way. What's the conversation when you get back. You're talking to your wife and your saying we've got gotta move. Does it go easy or were you. Because she was great she knew this was my dream. She you know. And i told her i i'd if i did get it which was a big. If at that point. I did say we'll have to end violent it. She was ready for a change. You know moving. The monterey peninsula was not any kind of sacrifice coming needs new york. Yes it was great and we had Seventeen years eighty one ninety six fifth fifteen fifteen and a half years out there which was wow. We have run. Yeah yeah we had our kids out there and it was. You know the memories sweet. She was two. She took a lot of them video tapes. She was into the state we have. Vhs the kids growing up in monterey to we really look back on that as our golden age you know but the funny thing was I found out later that i had sent him. These sketches right. I just went out and bought a couple of so bryan bryan told me later that And karen he. After this thing appeared in the magazine you know toronto cartoons profiles right. He they were they had already been hired and he was getting inundated with applications and they were coming from all over from professional season illustrators. I mean he would bring it so they said they would be working in there and he would bring in a resume or portfolio desk and say look at this stuff and they would sit there and they they go through it and this guy was like a just magnificent work and hank would but hank would say he goes. I can't use this guy because he's already has his he's already developed piazza's style. He has everything is i. You know he's great but is an abso- amazingly my lack of experience. Yeah yeah hank. Hank was looking for the block of clay finished sculpture. Yes yeah and That makes a lotta sense and there was a time. I suspect you probably this is what circa eighty one. You said. yeah eighty-one yeah so that you had applied to disney a few years prior. Yes seventy six i think. Seventy five six seventy five seventy six. Yeah so you were well. Past their point of where they were looking for the raw moldable. Yeah talent right. Yeah yeah so there. Yeah now over over the years your fandom for disney and desire to to work for disney as any of that fleshed out for you or view just been straight on dennis once i started with i like i was and you know i the only thing because hank work for disney hang new the whole training so the three of us would come in in the morning. This is once every few weeks or so enhanced. Say all right. Why don't you go out and sketch today and then come back after lunch. And i'll critique your sketchbook so we got you know i look back on it and go and the mile sheets for each character and so i kind of felt like a way. I didn't end up working kind of is you know because yeah and you know in sketching glennon sketching come back and and then watching hang sketch because he was amazing and you know and he. He had his training there. And so i guess. Isn't it amazing how much you can learn by watching. Another person like literally standing over their shoulder and watching how their hand kisses the paper. Oh yeah no question. I yeah i have all that and you know. There was a lot of too because hank who's constantly sketching going. Sit down to move move. Get up so we had sit dress sketchy no it was. It was amazing. Yeah i did a an episode Just a few few episodes back with roger shows on and I we were talking about how i remember. Being a student in college in my instructor would sit down and put that piece of paper over top of our pose And and i remember feeling anger. And i don't know foes mad at him myself whatever just disappointment and it how it took time to realize what a special gift that was to to have to have somebody of of that talent level. Sit down paper overtop and correct the drawing it. It took a while to for the ego part of myself to fade away to allow for for the appreciation of that. Yes and i. And of course i had no legal because i had absolutely no competence and and you know i was like green. I teach me you know and and i was perfect for you. Know what he what he was looking. But of course. I look back at my early stuff in a goal my god. How did he ever keep me. You know like even you know. I look back at those marvel comics and go wow and Yeah but i guess he saw something in me that i didn't see and he was willing to whatever in. Yeah i mean it was it was. It was interesting the year. Before i got this i had gone out to california to visit my brother in law and the hannah barra we went. And this is after the disney rejection. And i thought i'd go tried hanna-barbera so i had taken some of my work. And i haven't made an appointment with them so i went to see them and I forget the guy's name hanna barbara he was doing all the hiring and screening and i. I was trying to write down as many names as i can remember. I can't think of his name but anyway. So i went seamless iota myself and he said well you know you talented. And we're offering you. They had a training program setup. So you would come in and you'd work on actual you know about this but they wouldn't pay you he would just get your experience. He'd come in and work and get whatever but you so. They offered me that opportunity. Said if you want you know are you living in the he want to come out here will put you in our training program and you can actually do on on the site work but we cannot we guarantee you you know i was still living in new york and this was the year before it so i said it really wasn't worth the risk to go out there. Yeah and up up plant. Quit my job and go out there and work for them and get another job somewhere and hoping that you know so i had to pass on. Yeah i can relate to that as well past seen on tremendous opportunities that are on that path to your dream. Job right because of Commitments for me. It was my girlfriend now. My wife but back in the day my girlfriend and there were certain job opportunities working on feature films. I was offered that. If i knew then if i had taken them i was saying were done like our relationship has done because what one of them would require me to go to spain For eight months You know a couple would have been in the us and there there was a. I mean. I am embarrassed to say but at that time. My my ego was so high. For an immi- my determination to career. I just i made no bones about telling my girlfriend. That career comes first right and But she would continue to follow me around like i. I had to move from eastern canada to middle canada to go to sheridan. She followed me. No questions asked despite knee saying my career comes first. Ikea pack a bag and go. You know disney calls me up. This is how naive i am at the time you know i'm thinking disney's just one phone call away constantly. Yeah and but she kept following me and then second year into shared and i started to to acknowledge realize you know the the special relationship. I had with her and balanced against these opportunities. And yeah i mean you can. You can find yourself in a position where you know. You're you're weighing. You know dream job opportunity. Maybe this this part i love disappears and it it. I mean being an artist. You're very selfish. You know be because you're it is a selfish career. It can be very selfish and you have to manage that and if you don't do it correctly you can you know hopping around like you're talking about hanna-barbera one at you rent out so that you could for free sit there and put eight hours or more day into perfecting your craft but no guarantees right. I bet you were still tempt it. I was i was just the the the. What's the word the logistics of to move out there and not you know just not being guaranteed a job it. It wasn't that actually. That's you know. I i would say you made the right decision for sure. And by the way that would have been a whole different style of animation to learn as well which mid seventies what will they. I don't know i don't know what the have shows. Where a lot of flintstone stuff i think. Or maybe and the The show that came out with the racing buddies. And they'll pinson. Yeah yeah so just all but it doesn't really matter what show they are working on. They they kind of approached them all the same. And i think you would have all the people i've talked to that. Spend time at hanna. Barbera back then amazing draftsman a- like their hand eye coordination unbelievable really day lay down thick and thin line with accuracy. That i need a computer to do that today. I've got a smooth. My line adjusted. Move it here. And there and i was taught by one of these guys and he would take a marquette which is a big brutal thick marker lightly a sharpie yeah and he could do super delegate line you be amazed and and it's it's just the most un delicate of markers but it's what he used he did caricatures on the street corners and everything but he looked he learned all that working on hanna. Barbera stuff or limited animation. Stuff where speed meant high paychecks. And and you know be an accurate with your cleanup lines. Real fast to get through the footage. Yeah a big juicy paychecks. They they all kind to became the surgical draftsman. I know i know he. I mean he. He had a flair the old flares and the yet just uniform flare lines sketching. You know yeah. It was just amazing to watch. That's the best over. Somebody's shoulder washing film. There is one thing on youtube of him sketching of him one little three or four minutes thing on there that him hidden drawing. And it's it's yeah. It was great. Just as just you learn so much from just Want you up now on the flip side of that. How i i'm a person of high high anxiety. I have anxiety issues. That at times can be very crippling. I know for me to have somebody standing. Novoye shoulder watching me draw. I free sidewalk up. Yeah can you talk about moments. When when hank might have been checking in on no yeah he would never he would never stand there and watch me draw you know. Thank god for that. But yeah i mean you know. Usually the after. He sold the studio in criminal valley. And you we actually moved into pebble beach so he had us all together. You know it was that he was working. He had his office there in secretary for a tool had an office and the three of us had a beautifully. Had this italian tile put in. I may spend uku bucks doing it while but usually at that point the routine would be that you know we work. We'd we get to a point. And then we go in to see him and then bring are working there so he was kinda ready so we were ready for it and then occasionally he would come in. Walk around and look at our stuff in india. Let me sit down. And then yeah so that but with more more more so it was a springing into him. What about sorry go ahead. Yeah but occasionally he would do that. It's era lemme sit down any look at my my drawings. What kind of fancy then he'd start looking at all my stuff using and then you'd have to go through that whole thing and you know. I guess people have different responses. I mean i was like hanging. Oh thank you for everything and you could you know. And he didn't he was. He had a great sense of humor. So whenever the critiques would come but they would come with humor. You wouldn't be like you. Know was trying to demoralize you everything was and you. of course you're standing on. Well he's he's still signing my checks so i guess he's he see something there. See it always in the back of your mind. But you know he he was good with its critique the the interesting things on what the sketchpads go on sketching and then come back and his his critique of me was always because i would tend to use a pencil and i'd be very sketchy in approaching people or whatever and he would always say ron get a marker a flare one line you. You're dealing with a single line in the in the final product in terms of the single line line. Forget the sketching stuff. Just so that was fine. Jer your inner hirschfeld yeah and that is so hard to do it is it is. I haven't reached that point yet. I still have to search. Search like crazy i do too and another good byproduct of lemme meaning all these disney people who had retired there I did make a list of of names Gus gus arriola gusts are more up. He was mgm. He worked for ibm early on and him. He hanging eldeen elton dean. New yorker cartoonist. I think he started that he was at disney. He was on the donald duck. He does talk about that. He was in the donald duck team and so the three of those they were like good buddies. The three of them they hung out they had this. They had this men's this group at their coal daca ricketts lab doc ricketts from cannery row. Now yeah yeah. I doubt donald actually in he actually owned a lab in in monterey there and and they have bought it and they had turned it into this mint green and was just artists at the seoul writers and everything so they were all part of that so once or twice. He took us there for lunch just to see it was all covered with sketches and everything so it was just amazing. Yeah yeah it was an and you know gorda was beautiful strip. You know. Sarah yeah yeah and And yelled venus genius to so so you're seeing an you know so that was kind of an aside benefit of living out there. We're seeing all these people who and they were very nice and you know like L. denia i mean i would shop around there so they all lived around this so some i'd seen the supermarket and you know wouldn't be hi the iran. How's it going. Which new and he stopped dead in the aisle. Wow and and you know and and give you an taught here you know so. Yeah because i hold their lifestyle and their too but still it was It was amazing. And then of course and then l. preston blair came by. Yes he was. He wasn't he was there because he was visiting there. He was visiting family so he came back twice to the studio and one time i ran home and got my disney animation. The big Yeah what was that big one. You know the art of disney animation. The art of by him you know and got it while he was there and i said drove home. And he signed the page with the Fantasia crocodile dancing crocodile. So i so he you know he actually signed on it. you know. Have his signature on that page and and he hung for awhile and he would talk and then Art babbitt came by you know so seeing these people and was just while you couldn't have asked for. Oh then around. I mean the amount of motivation to keep going to keep that that thirst for learning would just be perpetual being around these people and it was tough because we were was a nine to five job so he was very very regular so we'd go in at nine and work till five so it's not. It's not like before that. You know when i was in visual arts and everything i was can wait till the spirit moves me before. I'd yeah i'd sometimes days will go by before i do. Anything had to work myself up to it but had yet produce you know. Nine to five basis was good discipline. You know i have to do something we're saying it's gonna come by at least going to call me and say what are you working on so i had constantly produced so that was good. You know discipline to learn whether it felt like it or not. You have to you have to do it. Yeah yeah and and that. That's that's a whole art form and skills to teach yourself how how to produce when you just don't wanna be there your creative brain to not wake up with you and it can be. It can feel like torture. Some yes and people say well. I thought you love to draw and do we know yes. But it's calm. It's hard to explain to get it or you. Don't yeah yeah. Yeah and so. We had him and so another time. Karen had left. Karen had she had a baby. She got married to baby and she left. She came back part time but then she ended up leaving and she was still living up there. She was in buffalo originally so she was still living up there and she got a job. Doing the flintstones comics. Oh so cool. Yeah i forget how she got it through i but she was doing it but it was for foreign markets. It wasn't normal for still being produced but it was like mexico. And i think there was still sold anyway so she was doing it so someone had told her that benedict was living in carmel at that time so she had actually called him and she said Can i combine. Get some tips on the flintstones so she called me which is very nice and you wanna come with me. I guess maybe nervous to go alone but still so that was one of those great times. We spent the day at benedict's house. You know hanging out with him. And he was giving her all the flintstones tips and had designed stuff and you know so it was like fifteen years of being in the magic and that one of the funny things. I've been a dick said he knew hang. I don't know how often they said you go. Make until hank that i want to challenge him to afford versus five hand five finger a war versus five finger dual i will show him the superiority of forefinger him as opposed to five finger hand. Which aren't you the yellow. I want to challenge him. So i went back until they can. He laughed at the that. That's really funny to me because as weird does that sound. so i'm i'm such a nerd for animation and in the process of it that i actually in my childhood even before my training i remember spending a lot of time pondering why forefingers versus five fingers. Right what is the if it would be up there on my tropes of the rules of cartoon world where you can pull things out from behind your back while why but what you know what i mean. Yeah and i remember thinking a lot about the what. What's the benefit. But why you know in. And of course when i started drawing. I'm drawing forefingers because most of what i was into at that time was forefingers so yeah that that would have been interesting. Would've looked at it and it just never happened but you know it's I mean what would that look like. They set up to desks. Really portioned off area of of of of the square. Imagine i mean that would have been an having film something. That would've been yeah. I'll man madison square garden and Yeah so it's it's great in something. I didn't look for the whole the whole deal. I never you know when i was. I never thought of being an apprentice cartoonist. I mean i was in visual arts. It never even came up. I mean every anime art and took four animation classes on the niger. Cartooning life during the forest and layout and the dawn of actually apprentices. Someone was never yeah. I never even entered my mind. You know that was something. Yeah and you apprentice in the truest sense of the word to Very very small amount of students master and You know to. I imagine there must have been. I mean what was the dynamic between you and the other artists. Well it was. Yeah we got along. I mean it was because we were all being critiqued. were all. Yeah and of course. I was new but they already been there by the time i started. They have been like six months. Maybe longer so. I came in as a new guy but we got along really well. But was there a healthy competitiveness. Or was it more kinship swapping them for all a lot of the whatever the now page numbers. We all got the same amount of pages to do so now looking back at them now. It's interesting because i could see who drew out and it's you know you go through the comic and you know it's funny. Yeah but that was. That was really not. Because hank kept it very tough on all of us so we were all you know grinning through art draws as he critiqued so that was really no competition at was there a sense of he was grooming you There's three of you right. Yeah so he was grooming the three of you to be the pillars to hold up his his legacy. What we we didn't know that we didn't we were doing the comic book and so you know. He signed a one year contract so then to the end we have maybe one or two issues left so then it was funny because we would drive. We lived in. He bought his house and pebble beach. So we would drive in three of three three of us the writer his secretary and then hang so there was like six cars every day coming in and it was a beautiful house and they had a little circle in the front we apart and he had to go through the pebble beach gate so evidently as the year when people were calm. We didn't know this but people who lived around. Were complaining about all this traffic coming out. And so it actually there was a big thing about it and I would actually part. I reached the point where i would par adding will get stuck at lunchtime. I like to get out of there. So i would park down the street and this guy had this beautiful house but he had this wooden fence so it was kind of outside the little sidewalk there so i parked there and i did that for several weeks. I'm partly and then one day. I came and where i used to park that with these humongous voters to this guy brought in all these big boulders. They're so i hike and you know this all later on. I realize this but eventually we did have to leave. It was a big article in the paper. Hang catch him. You know a pebble beaches. Who hank too so. We also had a house there. But you know sets precedent and was up in arms about this business being run there wasn't zone for indus whatever. Yeah we ended. We did end up leaving and Cheese my point. I what was your anyway. Yeah so. I don't remember what my question was but i find it funny that that you know dennis. The menace as a property became a source of turmoil in a community. I mean that's what he's all about. Well they range mr the beaches mr wilson. You know throwing throwing dennis fantastic so it became so anyway. So then he sold. He sold the house and then we moved into monterey city of monterrey he at this historic house and and we worked there but pro and then bryan bryan had left. He went to he went to work for. Jim davis on dorf right. And then cairn as i said she she got married had a baby than So then it did. Did that sting when he left to go. Work for jim davis. I'm sorry. what was that. A source of contention. No no no he. Just you know what my my original so anyway. So it got to the point. We couldn't park in there so we would meet so we'd have to bring six car so the four of us fred that three artists with meet we've been at the shopping center down the road from the pebble beach gate. I mean keti leach and we would carpool. We leave our cars there. So the four of us would would carpool in and And then as as it got down to the last coupla issues we mccaren go because france was with them forever. So we with our friend happened friend. Didn't he was just as mystifying as rest of us. Yes so we saw the writing on the wall so the three of us you know did say well. What's gonna happen if this comic book ends. you know. And we didn't even know what their point of whether he would put any of us on because because by buck was doing the sundays and he he would bring bob's bugs work in show us and and in the beautiful vibe in view of sunday so we'd never even dreamt that we'd actually even be transferred to them so yeah so that's one so brian you know he was young he was married so he actually you know. He said he didn't want to wait until the last minute so he applied and got the job. You know what jim. Jim davis hired him. Totally on the strength of is working for hank. Yeah so he got. Yeah so he. So that worked out. Actually that worked out good for me. Because i didn't have to be with him. And he he was off to indiana in a yeah to do. Yeah so Yeah so it kind of worked out everything. Just when i think back everything just kind of clicked into place beyond my even controlling. It's so funny. How serendipity plays a role in 'em people's lives and You know. I've talked to a lot of really well known talents in the animation industry and a lot of them share that that almost site charmed existence. Where things just sort of fall onto place without any any a planning. It's just happenstance right you. You know very innocent like and you know if really of hank had been there to answer your phone. Call when you call to quit. None of this might have happened to a pick up the phone that morning and maybe he would have said okay this kid isn't you know driven. I'll send them back. Who knows who the whole i know. Funny when you think and you know the funny brother-in-law loose here. When i got my first letter from hank i who's my brother-in-law come over to my house and i d sitting there and i was visual arts of i. I actually went back to visual arts at night while i was working. I took a piece of a mechanical. This is still the seventy s so you remember you know before computers that advertising graphic design was still rubber cement and when at night and i took a Piece of mechanical class to just just went back to do that. So it'd be sitting here at my house and sketches smelling so my brother would come over. My mom needs look at an ego boy this. He didn't tell me at the time. Said this poor guy is delusional. You know mailing stuff out holding onto this dream so went my first letter from inc percents. I'm sorry to laugh or interrupt. But i've still got family members saying that about me. Oh really yeah. Yeah i can see it on their faces when they hear so. I got this first litter. So i still remember. We're in the car. We're going somewhere the letter. And so i read it to them on. Its enhance that. I liked your samples. They may be an opening sunday so he look any he said. You know ron. You should frame this letter so you'll have something to show your grandchildren. You know about half so he thought you know that's as far as going right you know and i still don't. We still joke about it to this day that you thought. Yeah yeah. that's a great. And why what. A loving thing to say. I i mean it seems like it isn't because it sorta sounds like you know he no longer has faith in your your path. Yeah but but really. It's he for for people to take the time to even try to understand what you're going through as an artist pursuing a dream job right that is a very loving thing not not a lot of people. Take that that effort to try to put themselves. In that person's shoes recognize they must be feeling crush and then offer a statement. I see that as a very loving thing we do. Let's also see it as lesson. It's it's over. You know yes but no no. No but you're right. No he did he you know he was very concerned for me. You know that. If i did you know this didn't work out and i did get stopped doing printed circuit boards my whole life or whatever it was so yeah it was. It was a break. Yeah and when when you're sitting there to you said you're brian note. There lasted about fifteen years. Is there a point where you take a hiatus from dennis. Dillon really know what happened was so we. We started out in karma valley. And i think we're never trumper maybe year or two then. We moved to pebble beach then. He moved to monterrey. And then we were in this historic house and then we've hank decided that you know. He wanted to sell that back to the city. And i was working at home in salinas which was like you know half hour drive and i worked there for I i was. And then. I went from actually i i from working with him to faxing and because we have fax machines by and then it was like a half an hour away from him but then i went. We went totally fact. So i was fixing stuff and it was maybe once every couple of weeks i drive into hello bijan. Put up whatever reason but mostly it was. It was a long became a long distance thing. Even yeah well let me so. That's when my life kind of said you know maybe since this is working out because she always planning on coming back east eventually you know that was just here anderson kids or sister had two kids and you know they say all so then when this started the i said i i didn't even consider it but then i thought after a year of doing that i said maybe so one day i shot hanke fax and i said thank. You know we're thinking about i. I didn't know what he would say. I said sure. Yeah so we said with thinking maybe some moving back east immune family and he so he he answered. He said because he had lived in connecticut for years when he was freelancing more after he left the navy and so he knew the east coast. But he's so. He sent me he goes. Why in the world would you want move to new york. Living you know paradise. I had to think about that. But he's i see said that if you if you want to go ahead so we put the house on the market and it took a year. It's whether year to sell it but we did finally sell it and you know he came back east and it was tough. I mean yeah because we did. In retrospect that were things that in monterey. We'll never get again in the just the beauty of the place but you know we did come back and our kids grow up with their cousins in a bit so against it. Yeah a off all i. I know that trade moved from vancouver to new brunswick canada opposite coast Because of family cost of living as well but really that ended up not being important because Freelance opportunities dried up almost as soon as we move back. So living became irrelevant but Yeah my children. Basically or finishing out school around family and that type of thing but the industry that i'm in love with is on the opposite coast. Yeah yeah so. Yeah i know that's and then now go ahead i you know i i did see him. Over the years we came back in two thousand for the Ruben weekend ncis him. We came back down. We was in san francisco but we came back down and saw the old neighborhood and everything hang came to that and Yeah so. I did seem and one time we he. Marcus and i met in the in the city. We went to the king offices and we have lunch so i did see him again but then you know two thousand and one. He passed away so that was some guy went out for the funeral and then that must have been hard. It was hard. Because i am faxing you know i. I don't know if he died on march thirty. No may thirty first. He died niggers two thousand and one so. I have a fax modem that obviously i was still working on sunday he was still faxing corrections and everything so the night the evening of march thirty first. He I was working a margaret page with margaret. And he sent me a whole pose like of poses with margaret. He says. Ron you gotta get more still to the to the last till his last breath rounding at a good more acting. You gotta get more acting into this thing so you know so. Have this fax from him. And then he passed away like six seventy he'd he'd be best way at home he was actually. I think so. I had this fax from him like hours before he passed. So you you have. His last drawing i- fresh off his imagination. Yes i mean. It's i would think. I unless he did something after that. But this is like hours before. So i sent a copy to his wife and two us you know skits so it was was amazing. You know so it was out it was terrible. I mean i am thinking that. Maybe i should have stayed there longer. But i don't know but he was fine you. He was fine with me leaving at that point because eatery hired marcus know who's doing he was in charlotte so he was doing the dailies. So we really you know there was a everything was being done and marcus. When he got the job he was like he came out for a week and he already had grandkids in charlotte and everything so he was very nervous. He didn't know what was i at that point. We're still in studio in monterey. And the he didn't he was very concerned that was going to ask the move out there and he was going to have to defer at that plenty because he told me he said i don't know if he makes move out. I don't know so anyway. So at that he'll stay for a week weaken the mark. Hanks okay in the east. We work charlottesville. You know very relieved that yeah now over the years. There's been a lot of a lot of a lot of stuff created off. Dennis cemented animated tv series near us. That type thing have you guys. As the primary artists been heavily involved in that stuff. Really no i mean not not in the series from the ninety s sixty five half hours or whatever it was no. We hadn't been you know. Hank didn't even. It was funny with hank because when the signed a contract with dig to do this series he wanted script approval. You wanted to. You know some kind of oversight of what goes so they would send him the scripts and This move is still impressive each when this was happening so it was funny. So we get these scripts from dig. Dennis goes to Space tennessee's in space dentists and russia. Dentists all of the world so hang with sit down literally correct and make suggestions over every script you know like now. No dennis would never do this dennis. I mean i think at the time he didn't realize this is going to be in grand kind of lay out dennis all over the place. He thought he always envisioned denison neighborhood. You know that the whole neighborhood. Scenario mr wilson. Yeah this was. I don't think he he knew this was so he could get these scripts and the first first four or five sent back so finally said mr kenton we have to have these things animated and in the cam next week or whatever you know how quickly they've known it so hang out and said okay forget it. Just do what you want. And i'm just don't even say me this. So he kind of wrote wrote it and they just went ahead and do whatever they want but it was sent. That must have been very frustrating for him. Yeah i i can't imagine creating something and then just giving it up having my name attached. Still which is what you know. And he was in geneva for fifteen years. Then that's why he moved back to you know because he wanted to get everybody and you know. Bob was in connecticut at that time doing the sundays. So even while we were still on the comedy and talk bobbins zimbabwean and starting this. You know sued by this video. And whatever he wanted him to move out you know was an older. He was older yet. In gani had grandchildren. He will new jersey so he he passed. You know so that again. That was a lucky break for for us because my bug you know he he had passed on it and then stop doing it. So yeah again. You can't see these things coming. But i can understand that i guess is. He was older a older gary by that time. Yeah so these things that you look back on. You don't even see why. I mean that's the torture of hindsight. Yes so oh yeah now. Who who makes the decision to take away. The slingshot question. I i think was still i. Think anchors still around then when syndicate started laying pressure on about certain things and like dennis. Kicking mr wilson. Several dailies where. Mr wolf would be kicking dennis. There will be assigned shot. And you just see mr wilson foot and denis flying out out the door now they i remember like they of said you have to ease up on that kind of stuff so it was a progressive. The shot. I'm not sure because we still stick it in once in a while working and i just never got any flack for it but yeah you know. It was kind of over the years and You know they tried of course now. It's slingshot shopping. Likely you know. Meanwhile in my opinion the most provocative and alarming. Dennis the menace panels or strips. However you wanted to describe them are the ones where you don't actually see dennis do anything you see. His parents comment on what he just did. Yeah those are the most provocative once and they were always my favorite as a kid. Because every kid kim relate to be scolded right yes so so easy to put yourself in that static pose that dennis would million. Just like on the relocate and and the wrath of the parent and the most effective. Do you have the graphic series where they go they started you know the finnish go. I do not. Yeah yeah if you get a chance. Those it started in fifty one so they ha- i think it's fifty one to sixty. Then they stop them. Unfortunately because i they went ahead some financial issues and the company or whatever whatever reason they did about five or six collections but they were so beautifully. Done you know number the paperbacks the the paperback editions so when i was out there they were still didn't i didn't realize hank was not happy with the heat. He actually Stop bills while we were. He said and we liked the three of us on say. They've solved they were like that. You'd sellers. I mean but he was not happy with the fact that dentists who shoehorned into a paperback book size and there was all this white space around it and it was like you know so he you know and in fact i'm one of them. He actually animated dennis hitting a baseball an animation. If you've never seen as a flip the foreigner types and he did the initial inc art and everything. I mean he. I don't know how long it took them but he did it. Just fill up the white space in paperback he just because he was doing. Or below this panel. It's it's a whole book and he just you know so. He certain things you know. He he So any kinda graphics came along. Those are beautiful full page. Beautiful reproductions a really went out of their way to one. And there's a lot of the early ones would know dennis. I in fact. I just saw people in the elevator. All these heads in the elevator and get your umbrella adami ear. You know yelling and stuff like that. You know so. There were a lot of them without dennis in it. Yeah yeah it's it's just while time you can make the audience's imagination work overtime to fill in the blanks for you. That is when you get the best. I mean look jaws right that same philosophy let the audience imagine what happened or is about to happen with necessity necessity to they couldn't get the sharp or having problems so they had a film around it again. Seren deputy. it's it's crazy. I mean it works both both ways. You've got unlucky serendipitous moments and then you've got the lucky ones right. But yeah it's what's the saying. Necessity is inventors friend or breeds breeze invention. Now mother something like that and you know it's it's so true. I i mean i mean for that matter. Disney is living proof of that. You know with the early wondering okay. We're doing these cute little animated shorts but what about a feature film and snow white Comes from that. But all the technology that they built to make snow white happen The multi plane camera all that stuff. Just because he wanted to achieve a certain look Yeah it's absolutely crazy. Yeah but i feel. I feel kind of feel a little heartbroken that you and your fellow artists weren't at least consultants or or rely on. I mean it wasn't what was it. It was the movie the ninety-three movie with john. News story right right now. That actually flew out of chicago and What was there for some of the filming so he was very happy with that movie. He was very soon chinese mean before. The production started hank ridden of little character analysis on all the characters for him backgrounds. You know so he so. Hank was pretty involved with that. But as for just i thank you to these economic press posters which were little moreau. Hang up in factories and stuff and the booster morale-booster things. I mean he he he let us one of those once in a while and dairy queen stuff. Still when i started. We're still doing so you know he throws one of those occasionally but Yeah you know we. We didn't really know. Feel like having having been such dedicated apprentices to hank and the property at any point you consider doing your own taking all that knowledge putting your own syndicated idea out there or for that. Hank had a writer. And one of them's riders. Was this old guy. I forget where we. I kinda hangs rule initially don't fraternize with the writers. Don't just you know you know mostly involved with them. Because they're yeah affects the work and so i i was young. I mean i was younger. So i saw this one writer. He had this idea for strip so he would call me at home and the monday he called in the studio and it was going to be an he's requirements dry. It was going to be called tombstones. Lee would just have him stones a famous people and let's britain on a tombstone. That kind of thing you know so these celebrities and and you know so when he called in the studio and drink was there. I don't ankles listening. So after with him and i i wasn't going to do it. I was just kind of humor in this guy. Because i have no desire but so hang came walking offices instead iran if you have any ideas about doing anything other dentist and this was early on is probably a couple of into. He said you know telling you now. I'm looking for you know so he. Obviously it wasn't a threat you know he was very nice about it. He said but generally and each one hundred percent here. I'm in known everything. And so i said fine absolutely. That was the end of that. So yeah i really once. I got this job. I said this you know this is gold. I mean why. Why even look around. I mean it was just yeah. There's really no you know that. That's a pretty rare thing too. Because most creative people are driven by their own imagination their own worlds. I mean pull any animator off a current feature film. They've got at least two or three intellectual property of their own and it you know stashed away in such books and stuff. So it's it's pretty rare to find an artist willing to dedicate their creative career solely for another person's. I believe that's what the nine old banded did. Yes yes you know. So i knew. I did actually the books of frank. Thomas ollie johnson. Also today a book signing out there. When i was living out there for their art of Dizzy mission and i owe the lucien of life. Yes yeah and i went out. The went wait online neighbor sitting there at the table and they went up and hank had been there earlier. You know nasa work right so they were very nice you know and they said let's you know great enough so that was kind of nice seeing them and then getting my book signed by them. You know great experience for me was no more trucker disney. He does a lot for magazine. He did all amazing movie. Satires he he. He was another one of my idols. When i was growing up especially in catholic school by the mad magazine sit there and draw his caricatures and he was like. Oh how how. Great was mad magazine. I mean wow yeah yes so anyway. So i was at the san francisco reuben and hank was there and i went up to two was more Never met him. So i went up and he was standing there. He was a very nice guy. Very gracious so i went up to him and i have my little name tag on. Let's say for a nanna center. Prizes whatever silent on my said more. I just want to say that you've always been a real inspiration to me. And he looked at my name tag and he said you work for hank ketcham and i said yes he could you introduce me. Wow yes. I swear instinct. So it was amazing that and he was like a little kid in here. And he's going. Could you introduce the hank. So i you know i have. This is sure. Come on took them over and introduce them and watch tank. Moreton hank newton worth so one of those moments we allow to. How weird is that. We fana over other artists. Maybe not so much over celebrities from tv or films but you know you put me in front of you know A famous animator worked on. And i'm just like a little giddy schoolboy yet you know it's Yeah it's it's it's unbelievable. Yeah it's a. It's a true appreciation because these people. I guess there's two ways to really think about it probably more if you're smarter than i am but i'm not a smart so i'm going to break it down to You've you've gotta realize asian that a fought through the battles and reached the peak of the mountain. You're trying to climb or you might have the illusion that they were. They were never lower talent level that they sort of were born on the top of the mountain an either way either way just results in this absolute fawning over them as either way. You're at top of the mountain. Yes you know. You deserve to be praised. Another story but richard williams you know he he ohio yes. He came to visual arts and in in spoke lecturing showed Oh christmas. Carol was out had. Just come out at the time. And it was on you know so he came and showed that and so then he was having a speed was giving a speech at. I think it was an lincoln center. One of the one of the Stu theaters there. Was going to be talking. And howard. beckerman was my teacher at the time. Animation howard beckerman new york. I know the name. Yeah i am. I teach so he actually asked during the class that day. He goes through the anyone free. You know you know to come to this talk he goes. We're looking for a ushers. You know so. I thought what the heck i absolutely sign up for it. So that night. They had the big event in. And here i was ushering people earn. I was so frustrated. Because why did i do this because i could've came and sat there so i'm actually. Yeah i'm outside and giving us rundowns on what to do. And here's richard williams inside speaking and everything i'm out here ushering. You know so then. I kinda did because howard beckmann and asked if this anyone couple was from the class volunteered. But yeah i've i've had a few guests on who have worked with richard and i don't feel comfortable calling them debt because i feel like it only as friends call him right should be say. Mr williamsom sure But yet so many so many. A legendary stories have been confirmed by them in terms of his Quick-tempered critiques and that type of thing. But again one of those people that if you can apprentice under which a few of my former guests have and did tony. White was one of them. I mean the the speed at which at which your skill develops is just. You can't compare anything else. Yes yeah and that must have been very similar to you and your artist comrades working with hank. Oh no it was yeah. It was unbelievable and then having art babbitt combined studio you know sitting there and hanks chair and yeah and of course they were all older than these guys have had their even preston blair was there he was. He was kind of Feeble issues walking. And i remembered renton once after i had met him with the supermarket and he was funny because he had like a cane chair thing where he would like sit can sit on it. You know if you stop. And he actually did. So i was i remember. I was in the produce section of the supermarket and president blair's there and he sits props himself up and we're talking you know and going this unbelievable i mean because they were so genuine just so yeah nice people. You know yeah. It was very well. They they were. They see us such a different time. Such because i can't i can't think of a similar mindset that exists in the industry today seems horrendously competitive and just not i. I don't know different time. And it's just a different time You know i've said it. Before on the podcast i feel like i am born out of time. I i so wish that my coming up in the industry had happened during. I'd be happy with late sixties but if you know ideally put me back in time to freddie moore era and you know i'm laughing right No so coming up in the future. What is dennis the menace. Hold for you in the years to come. Well i'm just doing the sundays and as long as that's you know to the job. It's it's they're the deadlines of the area. And i have to get these things out and you know it's great. I mean i guess which was still doing. I mean we're still there in syndicated. Yeah i don't know what the whole newspaper situation is. These days as far as newspapers. In general i mean i guess. The whole industry is struggling. You know yeah. But i mean i'll just to the i mean it's it's a dream. It's still a dream job. Yeah and are you still drawing on paper. It's benign and scott scott. Oh yeah yeah yup. I scan it and i can. You know the funny thing is i. I still work fairly live like sixteen and a half light twenty. Whatever it is so much all. She was mailing them but after the kobe. Thing i i can learn from so. I had to start scanning scanning my art channel driving in the color guide. You know just doing the color guidon. And that's an scan. Which was it. Took me a few weeks to get the hang of because they going run. You miss this. Because i had it scam in parts. Because it's so big so got that worked out so now you know it's working out just you know think hopefully that will continue and you know there's always talk of another who scott as his ear to the scottish out there in to and the was one a couple of years ago. That was talk of another film. And so you know these things keep popping up ended up going with dentist says that he's got such a history a rich history. Yeah you know my daughter-in-law's at third grade teacher. She teaches third grade so every year will before this thing speaking of class you know other classes do but every year. I would do her class until she says she has. About twenty seven kids so to guess. We're just coming i. How many affirmed. Dennis the menace. So maybe two or three kids with raise their hand out of the twenty whatever she would say. Yeah you know about the kids so couple weeks before i come i would send bring give her some comic books. I shouldn't go on youtube and get the animated stuff black and white series and she would inundate them with dennis. So but yeah. I got there they. You're a superstar all you know in the neighboring the comics handout. Give them all the comic and then draw and it so it really want for dentists rich history then. It really wouldn't take much to give him. Well imagine now how. I mean if if a classroom full of students who are being exposed to your work over period of week of warmth or something and you come in your superstar you imagine how people like me look up to you. We grew up on looking at your drawings. You and your your peers. And hanks and stuff. There is such an admiration there and you know i still do schedule. So all my circle of friends no facebook and so i'm always doing dentist and it's amazing people still want. I still get requests. I mean e mail. Yeah from europe. Germany iran spain. People like you know you please. The you know a a drawing of them. So dennis is still. I mean out there. You know people seattle over dennis and so cross cultural. Yeah which is surprising. Because he's he's sort of the iconic americana boy is right but there. there is something relatable. I think all of us kids. Whether you're a fan of margaret or dennis. What boy girl wide ever you grow up. There's there's a relationship you can. You can easily put yourself in that character. Shoes and mr wilson ansett grumpy neighbor. Who doesn't who doesn't have that you know it's like i mean that's a given. Yeah walter matthau was born for that role. Oh yeah so perfect. So perfect okay. Well i think working to end it there. I'm gonna let you get back to your day. I can't thank you enough for the pleasure. I'm glad because i was. I was actually talking about sleepless nights. I was kind of up last night. Because i had my son run me through this thing and that she said all right. You have to do that. It's no big deal man. But i was here prepping this morning and since thinking oh my gosh i don't wanna blow it for this guy. Oh no believe me you could have said. I'm not turning my camera on. I still would have been happy. So i really appreciate it and i will message you over the next few days and collect information for the right up if there's any promotional links type thing absolute aunt yeah again. Thank you very much. Thank you so much i. I'm honored that you know that you'll even spend the time you know. trust me. it's going to be a lot of people very happy to find out more about you by gave you enough information turn okay. You're so obviously. Time is up. And i'm just looking at my list of names gus. Aerial person blair. Well no if if you have more. I'm i'm just trying to be sensitive to your time. I i'm i'm joking i'm joking i'm just think holly you know holly and yeah. So that's it. yeah. I did lee lee. Holly was his sunday guy and then he did this comics and i did. I did get to meet him in hank's funeral unfortunately which was set to meet him. Under those circumstances. Yeah tying of the worst circumstances you could ever imagine. Yeah i mean it's a heck of a time to. Hey i really like your work i mean it just doesn't work no know no no. I'm sorry you can cut that out. So the moral of the story is keep chasing your dreams and eventually. Yeah you know. The reaper comes for us all. yes absolutely. thank you very much ron. right take care. Bye-bye what do i do you. Just click on the red phone icon on more. Okay okay okay. All right thanks a lot. Thanks nice meeting you buy. We want to hear from you. Go to podcasts. dot com. Check out oliver social media links. Leave comments like subscribes. All that stuff. It really helps. We have more great guests coming up here on drawn to it podcast.
Lightbox-The Future of 2d Animation (BONUS EPISODE)
"Welcome everybody to another Bancroft brothers animation podcast and it is yeah. All right and it's also a live event right here as part of light box expo online twenty, twenty probably one of the earliest podcast we've ever done in our lifetime. Tom Because of our guests that we have involved today. Yes. We're with light box, which is online this year for two thousand Twenty Cova did is the fault of Kobe of course but you know what it is meaning that we have a bigger audience ever had before we already have a hundred. Attendees guys for showing up and you'll be hearing from them when we get our Q in a little bit and a little bit of time but we are doing a special panel today called. Oh I was going get to you Tom. It's called whatever happened to to the animation us not what? It's called now it's called the future of two D animation were discussed. What happened in two D animation certainly. But also weird's going what we think our own predictions because we all have crystal balls on this panel. So let's introduce our panel to you. Now I want to introduce to you the lovely lady of the panel. Tracy Butler is one of our younger newcomers on this panel because. She loves to animation. So she's definitely ready to talk about and she's younger than everybody else here, and she's definitely younger than everybody else. But Tracy is best known as a comic book artist and the Creator of lack daisy the comic book this very popular especially online. So thank you to Tracy and all of her followers hey, tracy how you doing? Hey, good. really honored to be here I'm surrounded by such a immense company feel a little out of place but. Thank you for having me. Yes. Tony said we're all getting more and more immense. Yes. Thank you cove it. Is We, have the wonderful next my screen at least is the wonderful Tom more. That's two M's com more and he is the founder of cartoon saloon. Studio in Ireland Correct Kenny. Ireland got. Guinea and has made a wonderful films out of there like a song of the sea and secretive kells and now the newest one coming out soon is wolf walkers. Thanks for joining US Tom. You added more to this panel just by showing up. He's on this going to be more like never heard. Thomas the only one that we are we knowingly at least know is drinking while we podcast. So yes. This. Is the wonderful Sandra clues? Oh, and he's coming to us from Florence Italy Sandra is a longtime td animator and master He is working right now I don't know if we can say what he's working on now, but he has worked on. Films like Mary poppins returns the animated a pieces of that and Claus Claus I, called it glues Oh who's Klaus. And we could. We could mention Sandra working together right now on space jam to exactly which is actually not space jim to it's called. What do you know Sandra Already. At I don't know about this. Yeah. They they didn't want they want to add the to So it's a new legacy space jam a new legacy. Let's the auditions. Is going to come on yeah yeah. Well. What is it called Mary poppins to it was right no Mary poppins return Oh. That's right. Okay. See it's not popular to put the two on anymore. Land thing I know we can't. Yeah. Anyway today Tom we're going to be yeah, I know this is so exciting you guys and thank you for all everybody for joining us and we have a huge live crowd that's watching us now be zoom. So thank you all for coming. We want to get right into it. Tom I. You know I Tony Let me jump in real quick and then Tony and I for those that don't know. Passed it. We are twin brothers are past Disney animation. Also, we worked there for many years and worked on a lot of the nineties to two thousands legacy kind of films, which is being be Selanne Pocahontas Milan Tarzan a bunch of those emperor's new groove come on. Yeah cronk sorry and then have sense both had our own companies and have been published a art. Art Instruction Books, and things like that as well as now instructors at animation schools, all schools that we started the animation and many of us many you might know just from being too old guys talk on the bancroft Brothers Animation podcasts which this'll be one also ultimately. So thank you guys for joining us and let's get right into it. I wanted to talk a little bit about and ask the panel here. What was your first? We're talking about two D animation. So certainly, Tom I have experienced there and Fon Fon stories and anecdotes about how we fell in love with two. D. Animation It's certainly has a certain magic to it, but for you guys and I'll throw this out to Tracy I. What was the first two D animated either TV show or film that you saw as a child at the kind of what was the thing that ignited that love for to DNA Shen I, think probably the first things that I was exposed to on the regular and that I really fell in love with worthy looney tunes, shorts they of course were much older much before my time. But by when I was a little kid, they were on Saturday Sunday morning and so I would suggest that Over and over and over again and Originals correct. Yeah. Yeah. The original like the forties and fifties and science jim a ferret like director for Geeky people that love looney tunes there either Chuck John's. Too, but I mean, it's hard to pick. You know frizzes good but. Well even as a kid would Tony didn't know the difference between those directors but we knew that if if a at the very beginning after the MGM lion. Tom Would come on and go here. We knew that was a Chuck Jones. That was his intro. Yeah. And I think probably the first Seattle. Animated thing I saw was who framed Roger Rabbit that certainly left an impression in the of course, that was a mix of duty in live action but. That sold me. Yeah. So Tony Work on that he's holding really. Wow. No. Tom. Alana's a little. Rely on this podcast, don't you worry hat? Okay. Tom More Tom same question. What was the thing that that floated your boat with to the animation? Your I have a strong member of being at a birthday party and we were like eight or nine or something and. They guy whose birthday sister on her friends were there and the mom put on the secret name for little girls to watch I ended up, sitting down, watching it and a member at one point seeing all my friends laughing at me is looking at cartoons with little girls. I didn't air. Eastern. By zeke them. Ireland island shamed for loving animation that was the thing. Yeah, I don't know I. Don't know if it was changed for love animation was more seen that I'm sitting down with all the little kids up out the older kids or something but as I got older I was fairly. I was fairly well known for being sold into comics and cartoons and stuff like that. I was a bit of unawed. Basel. Yeah wasn't the Sports Guy Anything I relate to your story Steve while eager we went through that. Did You Called me. Knows me. Thank you. Thank you. We seem entities do. Those. That are the podcast later won't understand the reference to Steve also probably. We're including at all even though it's all right. All right Sandra how `bout you. Yeah. You know for me I grew up in. Brazil. In would. The is very popular. I think the first thing I remember as a kid seen. Woody woodpeckers, kind of the Jerry Lewis Animation. I'm very noxious is huge Brazil huge huge. Really really. Yeah. Dairy are big out there. Two right aren't. Popular. Packers is even even more popular. Do you think that that kind of animation that real kind of Vaudeville hit over the head stuff like Tom and Jerry? Don't it translates really well, you can take the English. I don't know I have no idea is just became. So popular you ready for some Gig, Trivia about woody I don't know if you know that you know everything already Sandra. You're probably wrong. But the story I heard is that woody woodpecker was created by Freddie, Moore? Who is before the nine old men of Disney Freddy Moore created the real look of of Mickey Mouse that we know today and Freddie more was freelancing and I think it's Walter Lantz that produce all the woodpeckers and he you know they knew each other in the industry and fray more created the first woodpecker. Do you know that not ever heard? Okay. It's true then. What I know is that framework there for a while until I hear from Disney maybe he me. That's Was 'cause there's an earlier version of woody and actually see it in who framed Roger Rabbit back to Tracy They had that the original like really screwy looking would. End The longer beam in and redesigned him. So that's the story but I heard he was a drunk out of his out of a skull when he created woody Woodpecker Kaas, Freddie was known to be an alcoholic by that point where we can assume that part's true. That was really distasteful though. This has been derailed but I wanNA get an okay. So that was one of my first questions to I really wanted to hear how you guys are going to feel about that. Let's let's fast forward to art school. Okay. So we all got on that track. We all loved animation. We started drawing our sketchbooks. We got to be the Geek that everybody knew was the artist right I can't just assume that all. Of, US had that same story that Tom Moore was talking about Now, about art school, how did you discover your school that you ended up going to was it not for animation and did you at that point? Even know you wanted to get an animation my section with Tracy is that's a no I would imagine to start with you again Tracy where did you did you graduate the other question? I actually went to school for biology. I didn't go to art school at all I wanted desperately wanted to go to art school. My parents did not think that was a legitimate career choice and. Not, be would not be lucrative, and that'd be living at home until age forty or so, and so that was a no, and so I went to school for biology at. But at that time, I was also just doing lots of freelance illustration and comics and things and putting my work online and A Game Development Studio in Saint Louis. Hot Wind of it and a hired me in this I moved to Saint Louis and took the job and I learned a transition from being a two-day artists to three D animator. So. Three D. Animation was where I learned. I learned it wasn't exactly what I wanted wasn't exactly where my passion was but I'm I did it because I learned a lot. Through out and then, and that's where I was able to. Also in my free times develop my comic eventually just went off and did on my own as as my full time job. So you're the first to bring up the evil CIGNA Mation so yes. That will get talked about a little. Don't. Know I establish that right off the Bat Yeah my heart is definitely with the to D-, stuff but at the three D., I I I see the utility. We're KINDA marrying it together on the on the lackadaisical project. So I love that you refer to it as utility. Tool whatever. The Art of the different nature. But yeah, I I think of it as more of a tool them pixar is gonna come over to your house and beat you up. So. In general and it sounds like it was funny. But you did you did you learned on the job. You didn't. You're wrong ability. So strong just want to compliment you cannot believe. Proper art instruction. A heck of the lack of imminent sidetrack just a little longer on tracing just to say the Tony and I met you at San, Diego Comic Con Years Ago. Don't, and we may have come to your boosts separately. So maybe that's quite positive experience like a bad dream of like twiddle dum and tweedle. Dee. Parading Out. I have some horrible face blindness when it comes to conventions. frazzled ordeal for an introvert and a people. Like. Bob Newhart show I'm Steve Tony said I'm Steve also. Bob Newhart show. That's that's a really old reference. Nobody knows. More out. Back. To you buddy. So what was your art like? How did you find out about art school and all that sounds like you'd go. Yeah. Yeah. I went to join the group in co Kenny here called young filmmakers teenager. That was able to Muck around in experimental animation and do some live action stuff and then I. Remember being aware at the blitz studio had said Schoo- in. Body ferment. And that was the senior college wasn't a university as saying earlier that kind of a feeder, school for the dump blute studio but unfortunately went there in ninety five and they were kind of winding diner operations in Dublin. So by the time, I, graduate. Mean I went there because I wanted mostly to learn how to draw. Well, I felt that the other art schools were very conceptual and fine arty. I was really interested in comics and being a better draftsperson that that would be the place to go and then when I was there, I kinda really got the animation vogue it went from something that I was Kinda into, but I really got the animation bug while I was there. So by the time I graduate animation scene was pretty quiet group of Friends of mine from. Ballyfermot college be up cartons You, just said by the time I graduated, but I thought free show you said you didn't graduate. No No. I graduate but I didn't get a degree degrees. It wasn't a degree program. A program. Yeah. Because it wasn't university by like back then you didn't really get a degree in animation like anyone who had a degree like all my business partner he had a degree in illustration and design from the University of Ulster in anyone to Ballyfermot to do. Diploma which was. It was more a trade. It was like a trade training. I will say that you guys. Boy. Cartoon Salon you guys the CO founders all three of you Nora and Paul Paul Right. Yourself off going to school together starting animation Studio Creating Two d animation. What would you love learn in school? That's like the dream how did you guys pull off that dream of just going off and you know we're not gonNa work for anybody else I'm not going to go to book Don sure lobby, we're going Don blue and get jobs over there and you got the people who are going there. Then we're going to phoenix like the Amazon doing Kennedy news was that it was going to wind down a member at that time to make an spinoff. So it was kind of winding down, but it's like everything was winding. So we kind of had to set up her own thing and we thought we do it for a while and then get real jobs you know didn't are you saying like? Your plan was like go work for Blue Studios. Right that was like the big hot studio. Yeah. I. Guess That's that was the job I always had the notion that I'd like to make my own stuff by making my own comics or something, and then we got the idea that we could make our own fillon and we thought we could do that I as a jumping off point. So was just sort of one of those things that kept going and now it's twenty years later rather Dan let's do this for the rest of our light just kind of evolved. You know I'm I'm hearing you say that you're too good for Don boo productions. Okay let's the translation I heard I just WANNA throw insight did not sit and this is for you tom and Sandra in a second Gloucestershire hasn't done Blues Connection and we fun in a second hold on we are we are doing a panel tomorrow with John Pomeroy and and as part of Light Expo it'll be alive podcast just like this and it'll be tomorrow same time and it's with John Pomeroy and Gary Gold Goldman up I will say goal minute, Gary Gold men and the two Co founders along with Don blue productions by the way down blues wouldn't join us. Later But. Anyway, it's going to be amazing and we're GONNA take part to a podcast. We'd earlier about the dam blue-fin the hell. Now, we're going to tell those guys that Tom More of love with animation because secretive net. No I don't know if they've heard that story but the tomorrow audience please Tom don't go to sleep and continue drinking and enjoy us. Yeah. It'll be better tomorrow with all that liquid audience we'll. We'll undo your mic so you can make a fool of the Steve Tomorrow. Drunk annoying audience members. That would be fun. All right. Sandro so this is How did you transition from little boy that loved animation to a slightly TNT bigger boy that wanted to get you know go to art school. Yeah like Tracy from self talk I never went to school for. Drawing. We hate people. Hey. But I learned from the President Blair. Book I got the Blue Book was very young. It was like. something. Less I couldn't read English at all. So just just pretty figures for just images. I was able to learn they not somehow I made a made some tasks on my own. Very very crude, very simple people in. I got this job ended said house initial commercial house. And they give him a chance to believe between. You know. In I, started learning on the job a sauce. And what age was that fifteen. Fifteen o other jerk move. S. Got It like that. So largely in the in the nineties, we're going to move through the a little bit of the history of Two d animation now largely in the nineties to mason blew up in a new way that was kind of what they call now the second Golden Renaissance of Disney animation. Disney largely as and I've been looking at the chat when people were when we were talking about our first to influence and stuff There was a lot at Disney, films. Snow White and Pinocchio being some of the classics but then people were talking about the lion king and beauty and the beast and things like that as influences I worked And Yeah Tom, I actually worked on a lot of those early ones too. So Tom's going to go out in a moment but But largely in the nineties. To the had a real almost won't say resurgence because it was that's pre pixar. But then I remembered I've told the story on the podcast before but there was a real turning point in animation when when I was working on the lion king, I remember going to a special meeting that the Disney executives had called. This kind of like a a sweat box or you know, and they wanted us to meet all in the theater and we're going to show us the I. I don't know I think it was like only like five minutes of CG animation from Pixar Toy story, the original toy story and We were all like You know I mean we knew about pixar they dental those shorts before the features, of course and So we are excited to see what they would do but really didn't know what to anticipate or expect, and we saw the seat. The very first sequence that we saw was done on toy story was the the little soldier sequence where woody sends the men to go downstairs and check out the birthday present opening. You know the boy scout the little boy yeah. That was a very sequence that they that was the first one that they produce because it wasn't a lot of the main characters, woody and buzz, and all that stuff was there's a couple of cuts to them, but it was mostly just those little army guys. Yeah, and. I remember walking out of the theater and talking to the other animators and all of a sudden. It was that it was one of those like really crisp. That's where I felt like. CG animation is going to rule the day from now on and I felt like I just saw the end of two D animation theatrically for Disney. And it took five more years or so to really come true but it was a kind of A. A defining moment and. I want to open this up to the panel just free style and I was like you're working toward a question. Yeah. I WanNa know if if you guys had a moment where. You realize that to animation was going away if that had an effect on you what was kind of for you guys emotionally what was going on around that time and had you fight through it because basically you did, right? Yeah. I can speak I started college ninety five studying classical animation. and that's when toy story came Remember Balto came until he story came out, you know in a member. Lots of discussions amongst us all as first year students by where we gonNA aim ourselves after college in lot of my friends I studied went into video games video games was. Most. Most people were I worked to in not in the nineteen th that was where most people went than. That was a real growth industry and stuff. So yeah, we made a really conscious choice that we would try. TRION and Meka virtual being you know try and make it a step by going that direction. We would stand rather than trying to keep up with everybody was rushing toward cgu. No. So Baldo, had your back. It was sort of like. You know whenever yourself inside One of our teachers at work on I think they did. It in London or parts of it in London or something one of our teachers had worked on it, and so he showed us a lot of line tests and everything. So we're excited for that movie because we Kinda. Knew bite or something are seeing like a little bit more behind sees but it is true like story really not their on socks often thing is it wasn't just that it was cg it was great movie like written it was different it was fresh the songs weren't culminated you know it seemed kind of it or something ninety-five so you know I wasn't justified the C. IT definitely looked like Something fresh writes it was a game changer for sure anybody else. Had Tracy. I'm sorry I was I was working in the game industry and dog I recall like early two thousands of so and and yeah, the coming from Disney was like I think past the renaissance era kind of like the low and stitch and emperor's new groove and treasure planet in Atlanta. Remember just like constantly going with all my co workers who are also who also had this sort of an although we were all working on three D art for games. We had this sort of love for two D animation and Kind of just went in solidarity to every single movie that came out no matter the reviews or whatever. We would always go to them. There was this is kind of like since a brief that that you knew something was ending and there was a little bright spot I think with with Princess and the frog. But then after that, it seemed like a minor extinction events. Mum I'm like very encouraged heartened. See that things are starting to change again there's this sort of like outcry for more of the studio animation. A. Little little US centric though the one thing that I found really heartening back then was remembering ninety eight sort of discovering the European co-productions of French animation was interesting stuff happening in Europe effort while of course, Japan never stopped. So in a way, it was sort of the big American studios started her back onto the but lots of merging worth going you know. That up Tom Yeah. This whole panel is a little bit American centric justice say. Oh, what happened in two D or Arm whatever our title is and because you're right it's been it never really died in Europe and in Japan and but I do remember talking to a French to automate director Michel also who was doing you know? He's making money like it's movies were popular in France and we had dinner one night with two animators who work for the National Film Board in Canada and we were talking about Disney, shutting down its hundred animation and there was even because we always felt like we were the ones on the outside looking in at the main hundred. Animation Nation Industry. That was gone at certain center gravity changed than we suddenly realized that the scrappy outsiders were the only ones doing it anymore it was weird apart from Japan. Of course, you know. Now I WANNA say this Tony and I left soon at left Disney, soon after right as that transition and the Laos we pretty much before the lay offs and all that happened at Disney and that that big turn happened within the industry and starting your own companies and things like that and I actually went into CGI donation briefly to with veggietales and so but Sandra you you were in the you're at Disney when this the layoffs were happening correct and yes, he worked on Princess and the frog correct yeah. But I was I was actually laid off before. Remember. close down yeah I was there. Yeah did you go through to Laos? Then one in? Florida later. No just. Yeah. Okay. That's obvious. We didn't overlap there. Florida did. Yeah my I had left already in two thousand and you came on reader for Leo. Now owing therefore might my people's remember Oh for my peoples correct and I missed that whole film site? Yeah. Yeah. We didn't over that's. that. That's the movie they cancelled. They cancelled a shutdown I was working. That movie and that that was pre princess and the frog all yeah. was years before I went back to the frog but But this time after de quit on my own I left I wasn't off I was could also push the state for A. Pool. We. Decide to leave into something else. but I remember to remember laying the ice age came the. Yeah I remember her to start it executives soldat how much money made. And they're realizing what this the point to see see heat you don't want to see the. Drawn Yeah. Are you talking about Disney because that was? When I was when I was dizzy. But yeah about. A. Blue. Sky. Right. When that movie came on the executive that use the saw that how much money made. It realized it will have to change this thing here have. had been a few frumpy from down from that was that was you're saying that was the straw that broke the camel's back at Disney. So we can blame blue-sky for killing. At think so yeah, because. Blue. Sky. Now on the audience the audience I mean just like Thomas Sane I think there was just a a mesmerizing quality to the new form, of CG, animation that people unseen before now now, the cameras moving and treated much more like emotion camera that we're used to CNN live action storytelling became more sophisticated the the acting and performance level in the animation became more sophisticated because the level detail like always talked about duty is great for broad animation for something that's freely stylistically. Enhanced. With G. Does details and it does realism a lot better too. It's actually harder to to go more stylized than CG. So know I don't want to skip ahead too far but that's my theory on me that that Pocahontas would have been better CGI animated film. Down that and there's there scenes were she just sorta like you guys tried tried to get that detail The eye movements just very saddle that had been on the 'n betweens that so tight that they're just like legally he would have been perfect for C. G. Animation agree but hair. Back, to you went through that roller coaster, I think more. So than everybody here you're in the heart of that storm when it was happening. Yeah. Well, actually I was working after Emperor's new growth remember that time the beginning of the whole thing, and then we'll start working home under range. In. During that movie they moved to Florida to you know work come people's. And Dallas just. The beginning the end for the Hindustani mation around that time, we can't soul my peoples in I. Remember Treasure Planet do very well at the time. and. That was it for us in our Members go ahead. I remember one of the execs producers. Calling say syndrome I, want we want you to learn. Because Thank here. We're going to build chicken little in we want you. It was like I want to draw to keep doing this. I've been working so hard doing this handwriting about not going to do this. But he told. My goodness. Yeah that's a defining moment if. I, don't hate CG at all I love it. By paper favorite films. It's incredible. I. Loved Him. Yes. The toys it's great I love Sushi, but it just wants to do it. I want to draw drawing. You know that's why I never did CG. Cleared because people. Think I hate CGI. At all it's just not for you right is that just shows to stay with hand-drawn nation is very much end that way I. Think. It's worth saying 'cause there's I've got friends who are amazing animators in CG and it's not even like they're brilliant drawers they can draw but they're not like expert jars because they focus performance. A you know and they. They can do cartoon stuff. It's not like they're limited justice super realistic stuff but they're more like stop motion animators or something you know they're focuses on the different thing and so yeah, I just wanted to spend my day drawing. Now it's inaugural like I hate CG is not how I wanted to spend and I thought hundred animation had more to say than it had gotten a chance to say I think what's been really interesting is that once the came in Andhra nonimation was freed up to try different things and experiment for ten fifteen years, and now we're seeing a resurgence because some handwriting looking CDs stuff like spider versus coming at you know still Like. stylistically different. It's not just trying to be super realistic. It's actually being like a comic book could see you know Basiji can do a lot more do right. Under the Great Tom Because I want and some I wanted to hit upon to with the panel here is. What is the magic for you with two D animation and I'll say for me there's something about the charm of the line, the artists line on the on the paper even digitally that comes across in two d animation that you just there's a certain imperfection, right? Because I mean, let's face it in C. G. Animation and and and to certain degree even in stop motion, there's there's a more polished look that tends to be popular But what I love about two D animation and see it in Wolf Walkers to Tom and I understand you have something you're going to share with us very soon so i. Do you know about that he's taken confused. I can say it's on Youtube already though the new trailer. I can say it future by get. Low. Yeah I think we have a little bit of time I'd love to do that. Just I think the audience would like to see that too. So yeah, you know when I look at your film, you use line and such a dramatic way to help with the storytelling I'm guessing here but that's what I get from the trailer is that you know there's a rougher line around the little girl that's the wolf character right and then the you know the contrast of a cleaner line and cleaner shapes and things with the with the other little girl. So that's something that we can do in two D animation does anybody have a feeling about? what makes Tutti Magical for you? Yeah, and Tracy go for it 'cause we argue I was just going to say I. Think there's just sort of a visual levity to it. You don't really get with CG some. Some CG has a tries so hard I think there's like as a novelty sort of novelty. Like new visual media, it's sort of has this like pressure on it to recreate reality in some ways I think I think we're we've maybe gone too far in that direction with some things. It's it seems to be like self-correcting now or starting to look more like Yandranov stuff where you get the squash stretching things that previously they weren't putting in. No, they were over emphasizing like every strand of hair things instead. and. That was almost sort of a visually oppressive thing and kind of got you down a little bit and it it looked very little uncanny valley in a lot of places because it was trying too hard for that as has to d just like there's assists like stylistic levity kind of transports you somewhere else in lets you out it feels more three to to experience of these. It's like exponentially. lighthearted I think and yes, I, think what I enjoy about it. So that's great and Santana throw it to you. Next because you have hold on held onto pencil and paper actually for a long time are you doing digital animation at all or you yeah Pencil and paper non now assume That digital, all digital you can use my copyrighted word I I am granting that you digital Yeah Thomas thing. Sensibility. Okay, yes. It was Kassenberg. Oh my gosh. All right. Yeah. I'm trying to make people think I admit it but yes, I think it was Katzenberg. Yeah I'm doing all digital because it's an. Prefer is. Largely to boom harmony is. Yeah is the big because it works well on the pipeline of feature something like veteran Sundar, TV paint fans I think that that's back over to Tom more you guys use TV paint. Don't you? Yeah. I was a late convert was utter younger animators in the studio using it and eventually I couldn't see. I couldn't make an argument not to use it anyway prefer now myself. I think some of this. Is that a nickname you're thrown out to like young apprentices you call them others like like a couch. Just don't don't even the just keep going. please. Tom. I wish I didn't have any accent like you. Good. Well said Sir Touche. Anyway, languages forced upon this. Oppose. This is my job podcast them. Yeah he insults all the time so. I did want to be specific trying tiny went on and on for a long time but I'm trying to kind of get a question into you which is you really were at that moment when everybody else was going CG in toy story like we said, is all hitting and and then blue-sky rune debt completely. You went the other direction and I have a feeling you didn't plan it. But what you do is you said going to not only make to automate stylized two D, I'm GonNa Give Judea reason for existing. I'm going to do something. Yeah, we have. We were obliged little bit to write kind of manifesto when we were looking for funding and it made us think about why we wanted to keep going to the and I looked people like Richard Williams and stuff who was. who had done commercials in every style and he just showed that anything you draw could enemy and the way his unfinished in the cobbler was using this kind of forced perspective. I thought was perfect for us, adopting an Irish arcton illuminated medieval manuscripts. So I kind of met remember sort of quoting John Lasseter, who said that some projects are good for Hendra and some projects are good for CG. Now, kind of handy quote coming from like you was the big Guy animation to funders and stuff at this is a project that can only be done into the and we're going to do something that can only be done in Tutti and thankfully that's just Snowballed I. Mean we were talking a bit earlier about both walkers and not massively came from seeing the Taylor Taqwa had his film and that was so expressive was so hand-drawn he wasn't afraid to put just really loose sketches on screen that was really inspiring because I felt that you know as far as you get pushed on this like when photography came in dangerous to get into express expressionism, impressionism Sereno they do everything that the foot the camera couldn't do it. The photograph couldn't do it. Sort of felt that that was like a call to arms for handwriting. So yeah, it just kind of snowballed from secret accounts onwards. It just seemed like it was always more and more reason to keep pushing android. Then we still don't say that's all we do full stop and that if there was an interesting project that made sense. US going to say, but digital duty I actually find it really interesting because you can do some really subtle stuff with digital. May, be was hired on April like member trying to do really tight inbetween when I first started I think it was all on paper and we tried so hard to make the line perfect winning. We're able to use the tools in TV paint we're able to do some stylized shapes that we were trying so hard to do with paper and Pencil. So in a way that digital Tutti has actually been quite freeing you know yeah. Yeah, you mentioned. That because I think you're right earlier you had said that in America we we become to our Disney centric and we just think about the US bigger studios oftentimes but your influences are vast I've heard you talk about in other interviews Takahara and Miyazaki and and Japanese directors have been a big influence for you. Is there somebody that was particularly of interest when you're doing wolf walkers and developing the story that or by Like okay this is the Tom Moore film I Ninety Loo I'm not even gonNA. Look outside of my own head on this. There's a little bit. I mean I had a great co-director on with walkers Ross and he's a childhood friend of mine. Up Together who went to college together, he worked in Stop Motion Leica as loud but he was like the art director on secret accounts. So for us, we were trying to just packing everything that we weren't able to do in previous movies that we were able to do on this one and yet that included tackle hottest. Obviously Prince on not as a big a big influence when we're not GONNA Eastern European. Directors. Land and stuff that we loved like and and some of those shorts those amazing shorts that were done offended by Darren curtain than they were really experimenting back then you know. So we were snuck in everything and take an influence comics also look at what comics were doing bed Rossa did some system concept art And I just love it. He was at Disney Two d animator like he animated Disney studio but he has this amazing career in comic books now and I love his comments. Those uses the expressive nece of drawing to tell the story. So like if a character is really sad the lines themselves are side, you know which is something I didn't think hand-drawn feature animation had really experimented enough with. So that was the kind of stuff we were. It sparked like Tom. Do you think you could set up for US Trailer figure. Yellow. If you can make sure that actually asked to do it Tom, we'll get it off youtube and she can okay Oh, she's GonNa. Do It for you hosted. By number of the US at had the last summit checks Oh. What is it? Was it yesterday. Yeah yesterday. Yeah, Apple TV on YouTube has. A releases just verb any to know September twelfth it releases on Apple TV. This is their first big feature. Yeah well, it's exciting. Not cartoons but yet apple apple. Yeah I'm talking about. It's great for. The fact that the streaming services like Netflix, with clouds nor is next movie my father's dragon this government to Netflix's they're get behind. You know independent automation, which is just amazing. Just saw yesterday this is exciting everybody that's listening to that net flicks at was at the President I think that flex? Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. The new moves and things are going to be doing and they said, he literally said we are going to take on Disney and They want to dethrone. Disney. Like we have a ways to go, but that's our goal. I add luncheon there with holiday and. Glen Keane and like all the. James. Baxter, like great. hazing animators are in Netflix. So yeah, they definitely have the town stable. There to really make change. We need to move into the future of to DNA mation and kind of where you guys see things heading. You've already hit on it. Tom. So I WANNA pick up on that, which is online streaming has really changed the landscape for animation internationally really, and all kinds of new independence are are being shown. I had a movie released. This summer wasn't too unfortunately but a CG animated film called Animal Crackers. Thought on net. And and I know that you're going to apple TV as one of the very first animated features. What's your thoughts on We think that will open up new opportunities for to animation or executives are GonNa go it's gotta be cj like all the theatrical. The theater produced a features in the past. It's the same as it ever was the people who love it support it. They're gonNA keep on commissioning at you know they're not going to. Me I see too many people kind of saying Oh. Maybe I'll targeted all I'm, not GONNA sign up for apple just to walk states or whatever. So from my point of view support the content you love and if you support it, then you'll get more of a you just pay for the blockbuster cinema and kearns everything independent it won't be any more independent movies true and I wanna go to Tracy Tracy you. Okay. Now here's the big story. So Tracy started lackadaisical graphic, novel she and Tracy. You really are kind of your you're here. For, the young group that's listening right now because you've taken a new route, you said I'm GonNa do something and I'm going to get to kickstarter and make an animated short film of the lackadaisical characters and it's a musical under have music as a part of it Tell us about that route because I know you're speaking to a lot of people that want to do the exact same thing you're doing by the way throughout the numbers I know it did very well So can you take it from there and how that came apart about? Sure. Yeah we raised a little over three, hundred, thirty, three, hundred and thirty thousand dollars to produce home. Of course, even for Fernando film even a short one that's still shoestring budget but it's. Italy I just WANNA say this for Sandra in Italy that would be a future film. Own Thank you. This despite the the yeah I think we we actually broke a kickstarter record, her the best funded shorts, independent animated film. So we were. With. The thrilled with a turn out especially that not we launched the kickstarter right as the pandemic was. Ascending upon us so. and. So we were concerned that that would go sideways a people maybe wanted some actions on to think about ten. Free Out, which is a whole nother conversation but. I do want to say I back your kickstarter. Silent Right. Now, I backed it and I do want to say that now you. Did I felt a little deep because what you do is you started out saying. I'm going to have some books and stuff, and you can have that and but it was it wasn't like your kickstarter was even designed to be an animation kickstarter if I remember right right. Well, we added that as a higher in. But if we make a ton of money I'll make a short film. Well, it was it was all about the it was all about the animation that was the primary. The we did up an art book reward as well Quite sure like I was a little concerned that the longtime readers of the comic who've been long time supporters of mine very grateful for have might have a little unhappy with me. If I was kind of if I was diverting all my ignorance and away from the comic nation something to just like spring this on like Oh, by the way, guys are doing this now you know and so I wanted to appease everybody in a way and I also. Had All these comics I don over the years that had yet made it to France and so I wanted to kind of light bridge those two things and use the book to help support knitting the film besides sorry besides be being huge fans of lackadaisical what you're doing in the comic, the the wire here with us today is because time I talked about this is a you're a great example of how to animation largely is going to come up spring up independently. By doing fundraiser kickstarter and and finding a crowdfunding style. and. Slightly further, you also rh on on a revealing a secret in the industry that not everybody the industry doesn't know I'm I'm talking about the moguls, the people the money they don't know that to DNA animated extremely popular. There's a nostalgia to the all wanted to come back and you. passed. So. There's been some like out people in my generation, get a sense of reluctance from American studios to make animation for adults, and we see so much of it coming from Japan and things like and it's it's amazing CONAN and Jim. I think was a little bit more. Adults frequently subject matter than a lot of what American studios produced and America's studios to tend towards especially network television things like that tend to go for that Sitcom format and things and but I, think we want something more different want something comparable to what we could watch from a Japanese studio here and You're seeing things like that like with the amazing success of like has been hotel. which has I think more than forty, five, million views on. Youtube right now they just got picked up by a twenty four. I don't know where they're going to end up in this point. Megan. That's gravy. Hbo Maybe Netflix Split are going mainstream and so I think studios are starting to take notice that there's a female creator, her name Yeah Vivian Metron Oh. Yeah. Okay. Everybody. Here knows it but but. Tony certainly doesn't. Check that out because that's kind of. I think one of the. Frontiers of? Yes. Like one of the frontiers people of of this movement of I think is going to be a big thing of independent creators, crowdfunding their animation projects to get done what they really truly want to see. You know what we as an audience we WANNA see. We WanNa make ourselves because we just haven't really seen it. At least lately and so Yeah. That's that's my mother. You have. You have a producer involved and. A friend ears and. It sounds like you guys are very well organized so like it wasn't like Oh, we kind of fell in I kind of made it sound like that at the beginning that you fell into making the short but you definitely got way more money than you expected, and now it's is it hasn't stretched into a bigger project. It yes we definitely had a smaller scripts basically set aside for if we don't raise as much as we really want to were going to go in the shorter version sayings simplified version, and if we raise the certain amount, we'll go with the full thing that we want to do and we raised beyond that amount. So we can do all of what we want to do. And so yeah, that's been amazing. But that was largely owing to iron circus hammocks, which is now a multimedia company because are just stepping into animation as well and that was like Trotman has run numerous. Amazingly successful kickstarter with very slightly with with content. That's not your typical sort of saying it's is stuff that's a bit more bit different a bit off kilter compared to like mainstream stuff on stories that people haven't really you know made into mainstream film and things like that yet. And so we felt that was an excellent place to connect with the you know the business end of things because that's kind of like we weren't quite sure what the in Rhode would be something like lackadaisical we were we pitched to studios previous to his starter and they were basically made it clear that they were too risk averse to try something like this which is a little bit more adult in nature at its cats in nineteen twenty s and bootlegging and things. So it took. Yeah Yeah so we were. On Assuming Doubt. Adult but. It's got a little bit of violence a little bit of criminal behavior and it's a little tamer than than that. But good clean fun. I think PG thirteen area. But Let's do. That when you. So that's an interesting part of the stories that before you did, your kickstarting had pitched it around people had approached you I'm sure through the. I. It had been optioned before and but never really went anywhere beyond that and then and stable Siegel who's the director and and comes from a career in animation on they had were in various studios on various things, New People like handled in war and things like that and kind of brought it to them and was like, Oh, well, what do you think we should do and what's your advice and using any studio interested in this and they were like you know what was something like this you Kinda. Just have to make it yourself and you do that now and the animation tools are available were working with toon boom. And and blender. Love that you just said that Tracy, you said the golden words you can do that. Now I feel like there's a freedom in the art community animation particular that there never has been before we can do that. Now we can be independent. So many years it was always about a pitch this thing to a studio and they gotta pay for it, and all this kind of stuff will now have crowdfunding. Now we have resources of technology and hardware and things that we've never had before. Let your creativity come out I think that's the big thing. We probably all WanNa say is that we can do this and we could get the big guys if we still. Want him right let that be an option. Let them come to us because they're so excited about what we're doing that the stars are aligned. We've got the tools available that weren't available to everybody before there's so much rise decibel. We've got the crowd funding options and we got the Internet, which is a platform that you can. You can get on audiences big as you could get from cable TV in in some case here. To do but you hear this our distribution system here. But his walk around with one yeah. So there's no no reason if you want to a film that that you cannot gather the resources to Sandra through his. Righted, what's your dream project because I know you've got one I have many I wanted to do my own film before select every every animator. Yes. I just didn't have a chance to buy that plan and it'll be CG that what you're saying Oh yeah of course. The panel. Action House is going to pop up to do it in. Italy right. That could happen. It could happen. Yeah. Look let things for sure. I, talk to many students. Like from the mcadam. And most of them they want to do hand-drawn. Yeah, they love it in see it's coming back a see men's do news making handwriting. Shall I come more is making Automation. There's a student in England lupus. YOMAS thank is they're producing Wan. So, Sir Bob devout mother one. Call me back. So it's funny that it feels like it's coming back in the US. Not to be US centric again but all those studios you mentioned it's like that's where it needed to happen. I was like in Europe and Asia. And now finally executives here in the US are gone. He wait a minute clouds did really well for net flicks. We keep hearing that right and so that's going to change the culture and the thinking of executives here at the. Bigger studios and I really feel like there's going to be this ripple effect. We I mean, Sandra, you're an example somebody that's worked on a lot of anything that has to D that's come out in the last five to ten years you've worked on probably Mary poppins who had what I want to throw this over to Thomas he's trying to say something but yeah, talking. Thanks Greener up go ahead. Tom I'm sorry I. didn't mean to up tighter now. It's Net it off when Tony keeps going I'm sorry. Interest now, I just I just remembered at the start a with walkers we tried to start to hire hand-drawn animators again to you know to beef up the crew that we didn't studio and the classes in production and calamity Jane was in production and in France and so we actually had a hard talion crewing. And I remember like kind of buying the table when I thought he was dead. Why can't we get it to the animator you? Why Isn't director mark was like you only have yourself to blame. Tom. Tom I. Loved that you told that story too because I'll jump onto that and say that that has happened here in the US very recently space jam going on right now especially to and before that Klaus I was hiring for a tiny little thing. But everybody was already busy that they'd all gone the go-to people at the very least the Sandra's the Tony's like they were already hired off at. On the bigger productions and so I. Think just like Sergio told that story on Klaus, he had to go to the second tier, which are these new people coming out of art school that were still holding on the two D animation their love for it, and we're doing it on their own and had gone to school for it, and now those people were getting tapped on. Klaus. So he had sort of this. We said when we interviewed Jim Tony, he said the exact same thing was that I have all these like forty year olds and then I have these young twenty year olds and there's nobody in between that's the gap that the US. Euros really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's like the older generation and the very new generation and hardly any in between when it comes to the people making them right now but it's an exciting time I. See Gross I see if there's a future because of online streaming guys I, don't know if you guys can hang around a little bit. We did promise them QNA and we take very late for that But how about we do that right now So Kayla, if if anybody would like to. Ask a question of the panel please shoot that in the chat right now and maybe Kale Kanye you. WanNa mute somebody. So they actually talk that'd be Kinda. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. Let me. We're not GONNA get thrown off at right at one we tony. Will One my time anyway. Who knows okay? I don't think we are. K.. I'm asking some people are need hero. Hi My name's Steve I have a question become more. Is this Steve also? Hey sorry guys just asking some people knew. The shine. Thank you can see they're writing questions through. We read that. Let's do that while you're finding any advice to get into animation as a self taught artists that's from Thai, Heidari But about us. For for anybody, any advice on getting into animation self taught artists. Tracy SARS. While he's just prepared with portfolio in make sure you're. Put online like a link. So everybody can see your wardrobe site. Website something like that because Getting jobs through that through links and websites and social media I've seen that happen a lot. Together. John's new. Jobs and social media has turned into a great way for artists to expose themselves, and I don't mean that in a naughty way to the world so that people can see your work and tell my students that all the time get a instagram page for sure that helps your so ninety. Okay, KLM. Did you get somebody? Yet, we have Yali. Tally and you hear me. Hello. I I just WANNA. Say First of all, it's such an honor that gets his speak to people who have basically made my childhood has so. Thank you. Thank you very very much from the bottom of my heart. Was a happy so. Thank you. Thank to you guys. I'm studying I'm making my income come studying. In the United States I'm from Puerto Rico. So right here it's very difficult to get into enemy animation. So thank you and my question is basically In. Terms of animation style. So I. I basically inspired by more realism. So I tend to get away from growing too cartoony if you know what I mean. And I'm trying to so above and beyond. What considered the norm now and I just WANNA to know So you think you especially now that more experiment experimental types of animation are being accepted. You think that there might be a chance for real is marvelous. design to be accepted to the US. Marie realistic design. Styles you're saying. May I show you one? Hold off on that I think we we should answer the question first does anybody WanNa hit upon the style question because I think when you talk about? Well, let me just say this I think many talk about style oftentimes you should if the and if you do have a dream of being very focused on a particular studio, say Yali, you're into, Disney will say because of your shirt I'm guessing. Mental, nightmare you have to, you should kind of tailor your portfolio towards the studio that you're approaching. That's always recommended. So if you have a style largely in your portfolio that is uniquely your own, which is great, but it's also diametrically opposed anything you see Disney cartoon network or anything doing it's a bit more risky. You just have to know that going into it and it's better to tape. You know kind of twist and turn your portfolio to suit the needs of that particular studio shows that they're producing currently it's a TV studio that sort of thing. So to be able to. Other styles is a big part of to the animation. I know sonner could speak to this too but to be an overall well rounded artists is probably the best approach for a portfolio. Sandra you say anything about style. Yes What I can say is I think what she's talking about. This show on Netflix, flicks called death best lobby robots someplace that. It's very least the style hand-drawn nation. So there's there's room for that too if you want. To, get into that link, there's absolutely a place for visually ambitious things and and I'll just kind of repeating the that I got was if you want to do something different, you can create a proof of concept. You don't necessarily have to make a whole film yourself or or even a whole APP pilot episode. You can just think resort like one or two minute proof concept as well to bring to Detroit which I am and I'll just say the the. Short. Answer is just that you know as far as style goes I. Think anything goes. It's the story that's going to make that they decide what is best style wise more realistic art whatever, and obviously that story has to be really good on top of that. The most important thing we haven't talked about it enough in this podcast, but story is King. It even beats trump's to D. or CG. Right? Like we're all saying we've got rate CG films and we. Should complement each other. Exactly. For that wonderful question, I'm going to move to one in the chat, and then maybe we can find another one that we can unusually is cartoons salone guess who this is far Tomore more is cartoon saloon open to having virtual internships and positions due to the pandemic also headed pandemic effect Wolf Walkers and or my father's dragon production process. Thank you Tom Morning Cartoon Saloon for your brilliant work. Can cannot wait for a wolf rockers and my father's dragon. CHEERS TO UTAH. Okay. So leave, it's a very specific question about virtual internships and that sort of thing, and how did the pandemic affect your. Your productions Tom. I. Have to say I. Don't know about the internships I. Suppose it depends how long things continue that we have to function in this kind of. work from home way. Way We working yet everyone's working from home. Except for by thirty people who have to be in the studio and yeah. It's weird because we're renting tree big buildings. They're mostly empty. So. There's a Lotta over yeah you know and it's interesting because it's going to be. We. We have between our two studios nearly three under staff inderal working from home People at Great, and for some people that's not so great. They're not and they just have a room in a shared house and you know it's not. So it's not so great. So we're trying to get everyone back in safely as soon as we can. So we're not intending to stay working virtually for very long. Where are you at Tom in the in the debate of working at home or in the studio? Do you like at home right now or do you want to do we ski and elasticated? But Beard growth. Growth is. I've been going for the covert beard and my wife's shaved Mohawk I couldn't go to wherever. You're becoming a Wolf I love. Yeah. Yeah usually. Very Antonelli we had to we had to finish with focus which was Kinda hard and what was most art I think was just the lack of community I. Love the workshops, feeling of a studio and everyone coming together and get ideas off each other. But I've made a short note the last few months for Greenpeace. Them really proud of it, and it was a small team of continued working after Wolf. Walkers make this this short it to try and raise awareness about what's happening in the Amazon and and that worked really well because we all knew each other but I don't think I'd like to work on a long project. All completely remotely maybe some kind of blend could be nice because it's pretty people that works well for I wanted But I think some kind of blend is important I. Just want to drill down a little bit deeper specific to that question, which is you know internships and in new hires and so to me what I'm seeing is that the remote lifestyle and I'm talking about the the big USD is also they're like, okay. Yeah I can see working with Tony and Sandro. Because we know their work ethic we know also them. We know what we're GonNa get and all that. But we're talking about a new person coming in is, is that shutting down at least at your studio maybe can't speak for everybody else is that really Kinda shutting down the internships right now? Yet to be honest because it's so much of our that new generation of our stock came from insurance and that's came from working people than finding that they enjoyed working with us and we enjoy working with them and everything and I don't know it's a whole new where this whole thing is totally different than the thing we're up against which is tough and. All Irish studios are up against this thing where people always went to work far our studios from abroad. But a big chunk of why were able to be competitive is that we can get a tax incentive for people are Living Arlen. So if we hire somebody living in Ireland, we have a tax incentive. So it's just a fifty moment. You know it's just money. He ended today stops us from being able to work with people wherever you know. Yeah we we actually had. At lipscomb university, I had two of my students that got accepted into an internship there. This was last summer pre code. And and they couldn't make it happen. We're in Nashville Tennessee, and so it was unfortunate that guys disappointing but yeah, could make it work with visas and all that. And it's really disappointing. It's like it's like trying to get a green card into the states. You know it's just one of those. Barrier, that's got nothing to do with talent. It's all about to do with politics of money in tax stoppage is frustrating. Well, if you make a short about that I'm sure we could change that also. Thank you buddy. Hey krld have anybody else that you want to pop on. Honey. Hey and Curia period. I. My question is first of all, thank you for being here for being. So open to teaching all that stuff, you guys are all really active on the interwebs. We all appreciate that. But I have a question especially because like you mentioned, a lot of the sort of old masters of animation are are in the industry and sort of the go people as a new person kind of coming in. It's really daunting to you know have your real compared to someone who's been in the industry for years and sort of trying to get up to that level. To have any suggestions for like what stands out in real and how to Sort of get get yourself in a position where you can have like an entry level and then learn on the job inserted get that experience that's needed. Anybody WanNa hit that. For sure we've been really consciously building a ladder in our studio so that it's like that that people can come in who can draw really well in her enthusiastic community junior position quickly move up to a ladder. And that's something we've been really trying to building in training in the studio and building in mental ships and lots of stuff that works better in person. But yeah, we've been trying to build at the last few years into the studio so. I can honestly do I I want to recognize that that from your perspective I'm sure feels that way oftentimes being a young person trying to get into the animation industry and fill daunting when you're up against professionals for the same job or say, we'll say veterans I guess. But I will say from my perspective and maybe Sandra would agree with this, there is such a thing as ageism in animation just like in Hollywood and oftentimes I I feel the opposite I feel like it's harder to be considered if it wasn't for the fact that there's so little to D. animation happening right now I don't know that I would get the same calls that you would for job opportunities. It's just because right now at this very moment there are. Some d productions going on that are going a we really need veterans of d animation and there's just not there's only a handful of us out there. So I do feel like you know me Sandro guys like us are in demand right now. But largely, there's also the opposite is true is that studios particularly the large studios are eager to find fresh new young faces talent I agree I agree. Yeah. Go ahead Sandra actually actually in for clouds I've see many animators of. Like young young animators and never heard of before you guys in the Amazing. Amazing job. You hate him. All right. Excellent was inspired by there's some guys that were like this. WHO's this guy? Is like purchase guy? marches, Kuntar Him. Yeah we did. A twin, he's amazing for the Best Guide I've seen in recent years. Anyway. He's new guy in depends on what you can show. Your sister -bility know when you show your real or your work might not be the same level of hours but might have something that. Niger director producer, my seizing realize there's something some there in you you know depends on what you what you can do acting wise in your drawing there might be something there in. Level guys like us an angle. Sorry. But have been around for a while we have a very disney kind of distinct kind of I guess you say, old school kind of style people like yourself like we're not going to create Beau Jack Horsemen right? That's not gonNA come down pencils and so let's talk to that really quickly because I think that was a subtext, your question, which was, how do I make my portfolio need? Does anybody have a very specific to go down that road? Anything helpful. Would go ahead ripped. Liked to know what's good you're applying for yeah. have to know why they do like if you apply to Disney now you're not gonNA show. Something that's like on a Barbie. Cartoon Network style I don't know and I KINDA WANNA. Throw this Tony to Tom Real quick just because I know you've done a ton of hiring, right? Through the years and I know it's not your day to day job, but you have and so what do you when when you see somebody come with a portfolio? It's like very unique and it's not secret accounts because I know you have a ton that come to you and they're drawing secret accounts right there John that style they love you since they were four and now they're sorry fourteen and They're just copying that style is that off-putting or do you want to see a real unique style come to your desk? Yeah it's nice to see someone who's style is aligned but not a direct copy because that's fine. Someone can draw they can come in and get on model. The best artists are able to do whatever style is the Martin Sheet. And if I'm directing showed might look a little bit like secret to counsel someone else might be direct the show you know. I love seeing like one thing it's really ironic. Is that extra CG on religious discounting to? It's just not any relevance to. Our studio at the moment. So usually real committed a lot of CG and we just kind of don't look it up part and just look at the drawing skills and snippy digital maybe rates digital Tutti sometimes, very important for TV productions. But yeah, I love to see a crazy style. I've never seen before somebody who's got their own unique expressive way drawing I always call them. The wildcards was exciting. I always go find a wildcard shooter I showed around everyone. Go this person's crazy look at the way drew that leg or whatever, and I love those people and they're they're always the people. I'm most excited to competent good solid drafts, people, technicians, of course, you need them but those wildcards are so exciting because they're the ones that gum production designers are are, who knows what you know what I mean it's always exciting. I call them the diamonds in the rough because it's because I worked on Aladdin it's kind of A. Challenge you have another Live Question Vance Corinna Inc you so much. Thank you. Sharply. Hello, I. Let me just get my question. my question is directed to Tom to more Thomas to ends. This is a to talk but full content Selena on one. Three like animation could be an option for your feature films or did you want to stick to today's time? At I I personally don't have any plans to do like a CG feature per se. But maybe when the other directors, we've got loads of young talent coming up in studio and I know. So many of the younger people come in our heartbreaking the amazing at boats CG hand-drawn Rates Tutti and they can they fear no art maybe they're gonNA come up with a project that that screams to be done in CG. So I I never say never but like right now everything is very focused on hand-drawn and some raked to the animation toon boom style system. Any intelligence else the dirty little secret about cartoon Saloon I. Bet You have a couple CG people there that are doing some kind of effects or whatever no and I tell you what right? Not Really. Walkers what happened on Wolf Walkers yet we don't have enough. We have a lot of people who are good at software called Mojo and they used to call anime studio pro Lot for TV shows and for like vehicles and stuff because you can literally paint something and S- candidate and break it up into pieces on doing almost not a fully treaty model but you know raked duty animation and so we use it a lot for like a car door opening or things like that and for like a preschool show like puffins rock, all the characters are Mojo. They're just like drawings that are broken up into pieces and raked move last puppet animation exact mark. Live more sophisticated than so far but the same idea. Yeah. But but the ironic thing is in both walkers we have these sequences that we wanted to do completely on paper with charcoal. And it's fully animated. It's it's the world as seen through the eyes of the wolves. So it's completely immersive. We'd never done it. We wanted to fly true a forest is if we were. Run through a farce if. We did a couple of sequences consistently by hand and he took forever and so wanted a guy is so creative Ed. McNamara. He used the are need built the forest VR ironic run truth and printed it as in Lake Road. Scopes. Those basic shakes frame by frame when vapor. So it was like completely crazy new animation completely old school animation coming tomorrow in one sequence and he's just one of those young guys who can just you know fear? No Arkansas this is how well do this you're not. And that's Great. That's great. Fearlessness right? Yeah. I. Took a photo of them because he had this like expensive oculus thing that we had and times are all covered in charcoal in eighth and stuff because he was doing. painted. Those just mixing it all up, which is so exciting I want his job so badly alumni. Thing I think it's worth saying. We should probably wrap up here real soon only because we gotta be sensitive to all of our panelists time space jam is calling right Sandra. For space you guys get into like animate like bugs, bunny and. Daffy Duck I have a shot right now. Right next to me and my cente- that has. Bugs bunny ear turn your camera. Yeah Right. I wish I could Marvin the Martian is in Canine Dog. Flat, a new character that I can't talk about anyway. Exciting I think it's worth saying to I wanted to say this before we close is that a quick statement is that I love seeing this audience here and what I'm seeing by the names. Anyway it's telling me that there's a lot of different genders present here a lot of females I just WanNa do a shout out and just say animation is changing. You hear US talking a largely a bunch of old guy old white guys talking and diversity is happening in the animation industry a big. Another thing that is exciting about where we are going as an art form, there's new stories being told. Not just you know Irish kilkenny tails, they're all happening all over and you guys they're listening to this panel right now represent the future of animation. So it's great way to talk about a finalizing this talk on what is the future of to animation because I feel like we're looking at it when I'm in grid view on Zoom right now I'm like I'm looking at the future of to the animation and it's very diverse and it's very exciting I I wouldn't say it was deliberate or anything but yeah, I think most of our most of our crews is a women in non binary people transpeople yeah. Yeah but diversity is alive and well in animation live action needs to learn from US I. Think they really do I mean we kind of kick their butts in so many ways and they just don't even know it. Yeah. needs to be said, this is my covert revenge of the nerds. Everyone can work from home and live action count work not. Yeah. It kind of is automation is not stopped during Cove Ed. It's all gotten busier. It seems like I don't know about all you guys out there but holy cow I've had such a busy summer and yet. And yet all my friends that are in in live action I'm in Burbank California from Heavens I've been so busy I had to turn down. Claus I. That was a heartbreaker and now in a done it, and now space jam to and to turn that down. So yeah, I. It's a heartbreaker and and to close Tom A. Throw you a little love even though you haven't this whole time for me is that Tom has documentary that he's producing stuff you love to animation one day you're going to be able to see Tom's documentary called. Pencil. Tests. I'm in it somehow maybe I'll be on the floor. Completely done Tony but okay. So I may out of it you know. But we have being not win as a voice of the narrator and she's GonNa show up as a TD animated character. That's what I'm working on right now Zuber excited about that documentary We didn't get Tom Wanted Tom you're on our list interview and for some reason you never came to the US. Oh well, maybe he can pull some clips out of this and get his permission. I don't know but that's GONNA be releasing when Tom Everybody wants to know well within a year we don't have. Distribution locked in yet, and we're still finishing it We kinda got delayed for good eight months I with financing and second with code but we are back on track. We are. We have finishing funds right now and we are making this movie. So yeah, Super Exciting Tracy. We're excited about what you got going on everybody check out Wolf Walker's coming out September Twelfth Apple. TV. It's going to be huge if you're not a subscriber, you're going to want to just to see that Sandro see you at work. Via Zoom I. Hope One day and I keep on drawn those. We. Need you to start just kinda secretly posting because nobody does every fall sanded on instagram only this group will see it. So you won't get in trouble but just start posting Raj abbots and stuff. Okay. Can you offer? Why Roger Rabbit Ducks. Funny. I can do it again. You could he can actually draw Roger Rabbit No. Lastly just to sell a little bit Tony, and I are selling a lot of original artwork this weekend for as part of Lightboxes Expo. So please look at Tom Bancroft studio dot com that's where You can look for original artwork from artistic and a sketchbook to I'm selling. But yeah, thank you guys for joining light box on on behalf, of Bobby, to and and all the light people. Thank you for being part of this weekend. There's a lot of great things coming up Tom and I have a podcast like we said with Gary Goldman and John Pomeroy tomorrow talking about the early Blue Studio join us, tomorrow at ten. Am We'll do this again. I hope to see a lot of your faces. Tom. As we always say Anna Man. From the heart from the heart in the heart.