9 Episode results for "Fred Lewis"

Kickin off the 2010's best Blue Jays bracket!!

Jay Bird Watching

1:50:08 hr | 10 months ago

Kickin off the 2010's best Blue Jays bracket!!

"Happy Monday evening JAS fans. It is Brendan Hanna. Car in the driver's seat tonight with Craig Gordon from Rochester. New York Craig. How you hold not man. We're supposed to be the the Blue Jays at the Philadelphia phillies. Tonight's now reignited. Nineteen ninety-three rivalry but And it'll be fun trying to force down our throats every year league on that had to go. I'll just bring up that rivalry in my year. Twenty twenty-five on my Mo via the show that was the world series matchup and just to say Vladi and bow were epoch in that world series. Well if you're twenty twenty five in your LV show. Craig where are both glad and bowl overall rating scales right now It'll be the show so I can't say well. As far as overall they're both ninety nine overall AIDS. And that's not me tweak. In or anything that's full on just letting the player development stuff do what it does in the simulated franchise mode and the fact that Bo is a world series. Mvp and that whole thing and seventy games and twenty twenty-five wall still manages to get seventy RBI's in that season this shows you how ridiculous my lineup might be cabin doing having VCR cabinet visual greedy even quite somewhere else brought up. I brought up through the minors and under second Baseman in wasn't Kevin Smith so. Listen anybody that we would know. February visa created guys. Right created guys. Let's just put it in perspective in the year. Two Thousand Twenty in my show. I had the opportunity to trade for Matt Chapman. So I traded Jorg Roshan's and and company to bolster my Infield to pushing the Ladimir Guerrero junior to first base role basic. Basically what you're saying is this year or maybe let's say next year for the purpose of this added a full baseball season we're GONNA see into the Donald Trade by getting Matt Chapman. You're trying to what I saw him and I really enjoyed it. And that Shatman is a based Elsa people appreciate Matt Chapman Enough Around Baseball. This kind of like Donaldson back. They were came out of nowhere. He was snubbed at all star in two thousand fourteen and twenty thirteen craig. I on liking the prospects of what you're bringing up here. I'm getting excited about that happened now. Maybe we should keep radars. Remember that whole show. We were talking about training for Nolan. Aaron Otto. Yeah this whole thing could go just the same way with wrote thrown a few guys at the Oakland A.'s. Just like this and getting somebody like match happened on ridiculously cheap deal for a few years and I ended up ripping his contract at a steep cliff but worth every penny of it. Basically I just. I'm just saying right. Yeah just a little bit of a hiatus or the end of the Donaldson era here. Real life to the virtual reality of heavy Matt Chapman as a Blue Jay and bringing back to L. A. Plus Defense with the bat. That's the catch. Oh yeah that's a guy that's just like Donaldson if you put them in the right Ballpark GonNa Mash. Forty home runs and Chapman seen pop to be playing in all those giant air. Al West ballparks man. That's that's a heck of a deal to bring all that but like I said I had to give up plenty to give him. I gave up Jordan Roshan's to other high end prospects to get him in eight bought. I if I have somebody like Matt Chapman. What would I do with your emotions? Yeah but I got a major league ready player out of the deal and then two years later. In the franchise thing I happen to check in on match during Roshan's who won the twenty twenty two rookie of the year award Jordan Grisham last That's too funny. If that actually happens that would be exciting. And you don't want very similar to that No one ever not a discussion. Yes I would give up George Grosz and that's Matt traveling for the next three so just tell everybody knows who's listening. I vaguely bolted agreement. That that wouldn't happen curious. What the third member of our team was unable to join US tonight. I think on that he I think he made agree strange. Okay with it. I do correct. We've got Some fun coming up over the next few weeks for our listeners and hopefully growing our twitter feed a little bit. Kinda store in an idea from somebody who I used to write with a CFL. Yes Canadian Football League website just a few seasons ago. I believe it was twenty eighteen but Craig over the last month in putting out the best CFL players twenty ten brackets so I figured. Why don't we do the exact same over the month of April and into may of the Best Bluejays of twenty ten and feed them one through sixteen on either side of the bracket? So Craig we have. Sixteen starters. Sixteen relievers sixteen infielders and sixteen outfielders. That we will be discussing tonight where we have seen it then and the end goal is to create a master bracket which we will put out on our twitter feed in an individual polls have our listeners and other people who discover our show in the Straw says vote on it to ultimately determine but we as best player in two thousand ten. Are you ready for this? I am honestly. I'm very intrigued. Interested to see how our fans are going to interact with this whole thing because it is going to be a fun thing so we're going to be posting a couple of polls so we're not gonna be doing all the brackets at once. Brennan but the Nice fact that we'll be able to dust these through over the next few weeks and have a nice conversation with everybody. I think it's going to be a fun time. And we're going to have to probably even touch on these. How how these are going over the next few weeks but absolutely it's GonNa be fun to get everything going and see what everybody's opinions I because I thought it was rather ironic and funny that you and I are have had it's GonNa lead to a nice conversation having a few differences in our layouts and how we seated each one of these guys as we you know. Shake the tree here at C. Falls out of it. Absolutely it'll be interesting to see are definitely the based have some fun little conversations about where we put them. Craig who do you? Who should we introduce to the audience? I in terms of the sixteen. I figured we'll go through each category and just let our listeners. Know what's sixteen made the cut now so people know this is made by me. All succeeded chosen by me on a basis of the top. Sixteen in each category of starters relievers infielders in the fielders by F- floor so according to fan graphs went up total. Dial Up. Where would you like to start Sarah in tens of announcing? Who's made the top sixtieth reached category? I'M GONNA pitching state of mind. I don't know why is on watching nothing but pitching and John. My two hundred feet so far But I just think that this one honestly is the closest of all these groups. I two so four people to know this. It is listed all about to read out the fifteen and made it as not seeded. It's not anything once we introduce it. We'll get into our feeding so craig under the stars list to be have Brandon Moral Ricky Romero Shaun Marcum J. hop mark burleigh drew Hudson. Ra dickey Marcus. Stroman David Price. Marco Estrada Aaron Sanchez. Trent Thornton Ryan Baraki Francisco. Lear Yano Henderson Alvarez Carlos Villanueva who basically was a swing man for two years here With the Toronto Blue Jays were there any surprises. When you saw that list initially sent over by me intrinsically made talk sixteen before we get into our seeding on the other side other than the fact that I thought our position was a lot better over the last few years. No nothing too crazy But it just goes to show you. How good pitchers we've had over the last decade trial Bluejays Jays. Nothing crazy standout over Roy halladay level but the fact that there has been somebody very consistent and it's usually a group of guys it's not individuals running away with it. I just thought even when you go back to the years of Ricky Romero and everything. It wasn't just him. It was it was Shaun. Marcum and company jump jumping in that Brennan Mon- Miro on partially did not stay healthy enough but still was an epic pitcher when he was healthy. So it's good stuff. I just I honestly. I think this is a great idea what you stumbled across on twitter to keep moving around with our fans and the fact that you and I are already going to have some good talks about where we see. I guess the question is. Where do you want to attack this? I think question I thinking now I wonder if we start with their one six and then moved to to fifteen so on and so forth because Craig as you get closer to the seeds where he gets five twelve six eleven seven pans and eight nine. We're going to be some very interesting results to see so I can kick off the one sixteen see that. I have decided to put together on my end. And then they'll reveal yours Kagan the number one seed in a starter side of the bracket. I have put Marcus Stroman. Yes I do believe that Marcus Stroman has been the Blue Jays best starter that they've had maybe not in terms of overall performance from the from the time that they've been here because David price is probably the best that they've had but we've only had David price for half a season and a bit of a playoff run. The Marcus stroman homegrown come came up in twenty fourteen and it's a reliever took over as a starter. He had that maddox that he threw against the Chicago cubs in twenty fourteen. It's first season and then just the whole story. I got the ACL tear And coming back for playoffs and pitching four games in the regular season the only drawback to strom in that I can think of which wasn't a strong enough one to put anybody above him in. My mind was the fact that he was able to successfully all actually the only drawback sorry was the fact that he was a little bit up and down throughout the course of his career. Where twenty is pretty incredible took a bit of a step back in two thousand sixteen and twenty seventeen evens grays two thousand eighteen with injuries. And then he was off to a good start in twenty nineteen before being shipped to the mets. But yes I have marcus. Stroman up against the sixteenth seed Henderson Alvarez who had one good season with the blue jays before being part of that Marlins Trade Craig. What is the one verse. Sixteen match up my one verse. Sixteen match up Or is it easier if you bring up the matchup you had? I'll tell you where I ranked the people. That's a good point because the first thing that you have there I'm I'm contesting a little bit. Bring it on bring it on attack and how you wish so. I think that would be a nice way doing and I want to step on how you want. Just figure it otherwise. It's going to be talking about two different matchups unless that's how you yes. Yeah yeah debate. Debate away so come with a rebuttal and reveal your match up at the end. Okay so I had Marcus Stroman in my fourth spot. A few other gentlemen that are I would say are a little bit more consistent in their tenure with the Blue Jays and I think a lot of that is like you said I have him ranked that low because he is very swinging ups and down and I'm not saying that because he's always up or down with his actual mentality and mood so I had him at like I said my fourth seed but I had J. Hap- as my number one see all lovely saw reason. They chose Jay hat to be my number one seed regardless that he is I part of the Blue Jays stint with us. He was not great but he wasn't horrid either then he was literally our. Best Pitcher Twenty fifteen twenty sixteen or at least most consistent guy and he continued to be that throughout the second tenure withdraw bluejays and. I just have trouble putting anybody above him in that situation so my sixteen slot. I had to give it to Ryan Baraki. Because they're just has not been enough sample size for me to think anybody else. Carlos Villa like you said Yeah. It was a little bit there. And there and same thing with hunters Alvarez yet one real good season I just couldn't. I felt like those guys having a one full good season ranked them above Baraki absolutely. I can't say I disagree with any of your rationale for your number one key. I I do love myself. Some J. Craig Especially the fact that he had a little bit of a redemption tour the fact that its first years here you know that. He said he was He was okay. There is pretty bad outy. There's a pretty rough ones where he struggled mightily to get through five innings because he just went so inconsistent around the plate but the fact that he came back twenty game winner Starting Game. Two of each playoff series. I told you so much about him. But yeah that's That's where I had J. have come in at the second seat. Greg I have a right behind mark. Stroman in my to fifteen matchup for the same reason he did I had half in that slot. I just couldn't think to put them ahead of Marcus stroman because I think at their height stroman may have been a little bit better in marketing but Pretty much everything that you just said I had Jay Lake the second best pitcher Over the course of the twenty ten for the Blue Jays up against Carlos wave up in my fifteen slot. Did you have it to fifty two and fifteen and this is where everybody's GonNa probably either love or hate me. I had Ricky Romero as the second best blue Jays pitcher and I think that is purely by the fact that I this guy fell off a cliff it was. He was literally one of the best pitchers in the American league. One year started falling and sliding down the hillside and then became one of the worst guys in pitching for the travelers and couldn't even keep his job. But before that though before that like I said just ridiculous downturn they were talking about him being the next best pitcher in the American League period like this is like the Blue Jays thinking they had roy Halladay all over again. That's how good he was right. And in the midst of that conversation I had to rank them that high because he was that consistent for a few years and that's how I made more. Am I deciding votes on these things? How long were they good for the Toronto Blue Jays? Out of those guys that you just enlisted. And then I had him against Carlos Villanueva so we already I Carlos really the the fifteenth seed. They only because you know. I think the reason why didn't play. Carlos will the wave in the fifteen secrets because and I did factory in a little bit of Villanueva tenure as a reliever where he was able to come in and clean them up message by that stretch that low still V. His name come up on my He had a really good stretch as a starter when he entered the rotation because of injuries so that little stretch there was enough to make me as it's fifteen hundred unanimous on the fifteenth seed lull. It'll be interesting to see where we get unanimous so I'm not GonNa star that in my bracket or making different colored to be unanimous seating so that will probably be where he will fall when we raise the monster bracket for our bluejays Top Player of the twenty tens decade so to recap stroman one Henderson Alvarez. Sixteen when you had J. Hat number one and Ryan Sixteen. We both have known away the fifty and I have to you have Ricky Romero under four. So Craig Moving. Along the three verse. Fourteen Matra who do you have lead us off matchup and then I'll debate you back. Reveal Mind Okay I actually have Shaun. Marcum is the Third Guy i Francisco leary ANA and I did. I love the fact that regardless of whatever was going on on the field was Shaun Marcum. He found a way to grind out victories. He was very consistent regardless of what trouble he got into are not and he did that for an extended amount of time. And that's why I threw him into this level because he just had such a good consistent time in a blue uniform throughout the decade. Yeah then leary auto AH I. I will tell you right now. When you find out where APPs on Markham it might be a bit of a surprise for you even though I loved Shaun Marcum. I'm won't reveal where album but it is. We are very different on that. So I'll be interested to get your reaction when I get to ask him. I'm very very similar on Francisco. Lear Yano we'll get to is seated market Estrada in three spot going up against Ryan directly in the fourteenth spots were similar in terms of where we see them on our polls but yes. I have a straw as number three in you know Estrada Kinda like Jay which is why how to Strana so high Is because I had a little bit at a reduction to or maybe not as much as Jay hat but I remember when he was treated for and they gave up out of wins the reaction by the fans. And it's like Oh brace sky better not see the starting he'd better not see the rotation In going out there in the first inning because this guy was just coming off of the season I believe he gave forty something home runs with. The Milwaukee brewers. It was something crazy like somebody's hiding under. So I've ever been very scared of Estrada. Craig I haven't so high. I remember three a lot of it has to do with the postseason and just in terms of how he was a dominant dominant starter in the playoffs to the Blue Jays. Even more so I would say from the half season they had David price in the playoffs. And you call them up. Marcus Marcus throttle with Bell. More dominant than David Trist. And that's why I waited that quite heavily in terms of giving them a three seed in our starters bracket here. Correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't he actually lead the league in opposing batting? Average in two thousand fifteen. I believe you're right. It was either. Twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen. But you are. We have one of those years. Because everybody's like where the hell this guy come from that kind of that I agree with you. I Have Marco Strada going in my next so no sorry. I take that back. I had him down a little ways. I had him down in my like seven spot and that was not because of anything bad or anything. I just thought the other guys that were headed him like I said came down to longer extended periods of greatness. So that's kind of where I had some of those excellent albeit where you have seeded sure as we move off. So it's great so Ricky Romero from me. Craig came in at number four. So we're not too far off on Ricky Romero the pretty high seats As you said in a lot of the rationale for you giving him what use your number two number TC All very similar for me putting number four when we were just debating before we started recording or Ricky Romero Was One hundred percent on a four in twenty eleven. When he was named an all-star replacement there is a case to be made that season that Makir narrow was the best left handed started in the division. And I don't say that lightly because there is other good lefties there Craig David Price with raisins. He's with the Yankees. So that's why I give it a number four. As you mentioned that you could fall off a cliff rather quickly in twenty twelve. Unfortunately recurrent knee issues that he was dealing with Really caught up to them in twenty twelve and he just fell off a cliff but I have gone up in my thirteen against Thornton. They had a fantastic rookie season For the Blue Jays in twenty nineteen all the starts. I didn't WANNA give any lowering nap but also not only hired not considering. It was just a one-year sample size for trump thorton. Where do you have your four thirteen magic? My former thirteen. I Have Marcus. Stroman rescinded Alvarez. Okay so we're similar on Alvarez but then the fact that I'm a little few spots below on stroman like I said I just honestly I ranked Alvarez highs. I did just because of the fact that he had one year he was insane. Yeah for that literally came out of nowhere very similar to the Marco Strada Guy Tyke type of thing and the fact that we did turn around there around and flip them in that giant trade then he actually pitched a no hitter with the marlins. See if I'm correct but even that's not part of my math on this but that was the trending up part of Henderson Alvarez and you could see that in that one season that there was something good coming and if he didn't get hurt honestly probably been a main fixture in Miami. Yep Absolutely. I don't disagree that so. We are very similar in a lot of our top stories and sorry for the noise in the background. The dishwasher and sitting out was not too far often quite a few of these so far some interesting as we keep on going along where major differences are kind of ready Craig where is your five and twelve matchup going for you on your side? So I'm just missing where you had Trent Thornton but I I. He was on my low side of this matchup with our against our I dickie. Okay okay so I chose dickey this high because of the fact that he honestly I don't know why he didn't pitch it all in the twenty fifteen playoffs. He had a good season. And it'll be ran out of gas or what it was but he was a lot better than I think people give him credit for when he was with the Blue Jays yes. It wasn't a CY young award winner. You know year that we traded for and yeah could be arguments that the knuckleball doesn't fly as well in the Dome with no wind behind it. It could be a lot of things but I just really think for what the Blue Jays traded for and that at the time it was the right thing and he did live up to his part of the bargain. He was never going to be young award winner again. That was pure fluke. Everybody needed to get over that really quickly. Yeah disagree but then I had Trent Thornton up that little extra from where you were. Actually actually. I'm the opposite right. You had them as your first seed or in the matchup. You had them in right. Can you had him as your top seed in the matchup had Thorndon Shoe here teaming with Romero afford it was okay. So we're close on that one and I the I I can't say enough good things about trend after the season and he's I think he's only going to get better. Yeah I agree. A reasons. Often once he'd where we slotted trend Thorton in their craig my fibers twelve. I Have Brandon Malraux number. Five against Francisco Leery on all at twelve. So we're not that far off on. Riano be interesting to see. You have brannon moral rings. I is mainly because the one season that he actually I think may twenty eighth and stay quite healthy. He was really good That one season. There's you know what I think I've realized on this listeners. Starters is that there is some starters who had incredible stretches of one season and maybe one and a half two seasons Reliever part of this portion though I salute a few of them did absolutely Into some of their stretches on a lot I I'm more five. Talent was always there. I loved him. Sediba by five raking is a little bit of bias. taking in My first of the new version of the jerseys that they're currently wearing Was Brandon Moral So actually I had. Their talent was crazy. That one year that he did say relatively healthy With incredible Announcing I believe it was. Yeah absolutely and that was evident by his seventeen. Shakeup game Back in any kind of beliefs. Yeah One hitter came down to the end and Longoria beat him out. And then Leery on with twelve probably for similar reasons to you He had okay. Twenty Fifth Two Thousand. Sixteen when he came in here and then the back half Up Twenty seventeen was Not very good before he got traded. So they was. I'd okay twenty sixteen three regional. He played a big part in that wildcard game and twenty six. Anything down the stretch There's a few good leary starts but twenty seventeen with a little bit of a cliff. But I didn't WANNA penalize them too much for Twenty seventeen so much but yes very similar So far it took the where we have a lot of these guys now. Too Far off so my matchup was price. Verse Drew Hutchinson Old for The fixtures eleven Iraq also. We have another unanimous. Craig Bohl so little star David Price. You had a lot higher I do. I do have lower than you. I haven't so high is yes. It was a small sample size but dear God a basically inherit betrays guy that could have won the Cy Young Award on his second. Half performance period. Yeah absolutely even as a stretch where the train them and get the dyers. Us busy very well for Detroit that your category Dan. They're God but yeah and then I I am drew. Hutchinson where I have him. Because he's the forgotten man you know. He did really well for us when we needed somebody else. Just to step up and do something. I would've never wanted to hand him another opening day. Start by the fact that when Chips fell down to the point where we need. We need somebody to. Chew up innings. He did a good job of salvaging that for us the very similar reasons as why have about eleven as well then fat people forget that he was the opening day starter towards fifteen this season that this team should have won the world series Now that's not his fault Is quite good honor for much syndicate the opening day? Very stroman mentality al. And the fact that they wanted R a dickey to not start on the road outdoors in cold weather unbelievably rationale for not being Dickie. So how'd you really good in twenty fourteen to greg kind of going back to that pattern that we've seen a lot of one hit wonders where people were staying healthy for one year and we're really good and off a cliff to twenty? Fourteen was really good. I believe he was worth three. Wins that season where he muffed a lot? A amassed a lot of value so What's that is very similar to. What Trenton Thornton did this year when you drew Hodgson? Didn't Tofu two thousand fourteen. So Trent Thornton like I said I think he earned a spot last year on this rotation. So it'll be interesting to see if he ends up following that same older not. Yeah I I hope. I hope he does better than drew except as far as weird tangents. I thought that was kind of ironic that they both followed that same kind of mold absolutely started their careers started greatness on the other so you had a lesbian David. Pray six your six. I have a lefty at number six and it marked early I have coming in at number six Mark Dooley is twenty. Thirteen wasn't so much like mark thoroughly but once he got some into Toronto he came back for Twenty Fourteen and twenty fifteen out mark. Daly is always very consistent. He was hitting two hundred innings. You knew you were going to get marked early. And the reason has been so high is because of his consistency this other than twenty thirteen where he was a little bit off the rest of his tenure once he got settled in Toronto Mark Ellias. Pretty Damn Good. And he was a big reason why the two thousand fifteen team stayed afloat With a suspect rotation at the beginning of it barely Was One of my personal favorites from the twenty fifteen team even before that so much so craig did not do this on purpose. But for the first eight starts For the first eight games in two thousand fourteen all of them were mark thoroughly starts plan like a week or two in advance before being like I know. I'm going to the game a week or two. Now let's see how the matchup sick down and every time it's mark fairly so I got to see a lot of him here. The Blue Jay all man so yeah. I actually had burly at my turn saw. It was hard to put them down that low. When you talk about the guys I had next. I think you'll see why I ended up having in that Mike turn all right so x one. Then maybe the next seven versus ten. I had Marco Estrada overs Aaron Sanchez. Ooh That's a good one for people voted for various reasons. To because obviously Marco Strato is the other end of the spectrum from where Sanchez's yeah pure fanatics insane stuff but very small consistent window of good. That's Kinda why I had them both in the same thing as you can really boil them both down into two or three good seasons for various different reasons. Absolutely and Sorry who was the old Rice Marco Estrada was your seven Aaron Sanchez. Plus your ten. I'm not far off on Sanchez. He's not in this ranking for me on this side I have. Ra Dicky at seven against David Price at ten Penalized price quite heavily In my seating oven just because it was only half a season And I also penalized and heavily Craig because He. The playoffs demons just continued for David Price. When he was with the Blue Jays. The fact that he couldn't get a postseason win. I will give him credit his start against Kansas City in game. Six Was really good even though they lost but even a start against Kansas City in game two where he was absolutely cruising and looking like ace. Ace Ace David. Price Until bat miscommunication Shala rightfielder to go back. East Greenwich it also I realize you had some good starts in the past with the race and those ones you just mentioned with the Blue Jays affected just couldn't get it done and deliver a key. W Game Two and not get out of that jam And then the two home runs early in game. Six is why penalize price so heavily and put them at ten but I also wanted to create some injury because of interesting to see how people perceive R a dickey ten years. The Blue Jay Because I agree with you in terms of the fact that Dickie was on barely criticized by the fan base. Extremely unfairly criticized. I WanNa see where people will lead on that with Dickie versus price at seven ten matchup just for seventy treat two hundred innings each eared me. He did all of his years here at the weekend. Books too so who just to throw it out there. The guy that came closest to two hundred. This past year was fifty. And so that's a lot of innings for somebody. You can't be shitty and stand out there for that many innings this season just saying I will also say I don't know if we're going to have it. Two hundred innings started relates. Even if there's one hundred or something game with a full season I don't know if anybody in the current subjected dictatorships it's GonNa go Leonard Real. He's never been over one hundred and eighty correct. You have to leave other than its preceding here with the dodgers In North America. They actually you met the right. I'm not even sure if you've ever hit two hundred by one mostly. I was last season last year. He stayed healthy. You get out there. They were careful With real by Ya two hundred innings and something that I don't think we're GONNA see for another year or two so we're going to go around the turn here we're GONNA go around the turn of the eight verse nine nachos which should have intrigued with voters. This all gets seated in the master. Bracketed created Craig I have Aaron Sanchez. Coming in at number eight So not too far away from your seating In Ten And then Sean Morrison have and do a number nine because despite Markan being really good in the opening day guy in two thousand ten The fact that he was traded later that offseason for Brett Lawrie was part of the reason. I T realize Martin and put him in the ninth seed Punished him for all the red bull drinking. That happened in the future. As I wanNA spend for that. Yeah but You had the fact that I tried to not take much of the previous decade into effect. Markham got injured but he also was really good when he came up his rookie I didn't take too much of that into consideration. Maybe a bit But yeah the one part of this decade that he was here he was really good but I also wanted to create from intrigued by seating him. Up Against Aaron Sanchez had again following the theme really incredible one season and then fall off a quick with injuries and stuff. Yeah and that's exactly what happened. But the fact that Sanchez is just L- godly stuff. But like we just saw last year even after he got traded. It's like yeah. Oh by the way he's hurt again so and that was unfortunately part is Sean Markham's problems too. For as much of a dog he was. He didn't stay out there to really see the whole thing. Come together completely you signing a couple of good full seasons. But then it's like Oh my God. I can't stay out there. So my final turn was Brandon Morrow vers Mark Burleigh. So that's GONNA come down free guy. That's if he had a few more good seasons mark burleigh could have been a conversation for cooperstown with how good he was. And that Brandon Morrow he's really salvage disease is a career here in the bullpen. There's really emphasize the ridiculous amount of talent that he has. If he is healthy he is easily one of the best guys out there. But that would be the key part. He could not stay healthy in Toronto. Because I think they're a lot more of those one hitter seventeenth strikeout games if he could have actually stayed out there. Oh Yeah we see in various theories a few really good moral and I actually now that you revealed that match to me. I kinda really like where you put brandon motto this penalizing a bit for that one good year but the inability to stay healthy. So I think when we go in reveal our master bracket a few days time and we will get some input from our third member at the team out of course Sarah when we put this together but Yeah I like where you brandon moral on that list there but yeah that is the starter side of the bracket. Craig entered the going through where we cheated. Yeah it's a good question Well yeah that's exactly and so you might fire the good spot. I WANNA see the dumpster fire for end. So people can realize how bad the outfield or now study decline. We started with one. That was the good matchups where we had some really dots. And now we're GONNA go to the next and so on and so forth. Let's go infielders. We just saw Craig fifty one sixty sereda feeling whereas probably really close to mind. But I had the bringer of rain. Verse Jose Molina. Okay Gary Cole- On that one do you WanNa go through the options really quick before we start diving through all. This is very true. Very True Soul Craig. The options in feel. There's a list. There is some very interesting names on here. Edwin encarnacion you now Escobar. Jose Molina Brett. Lawrie outs solace y guerrero junior phobic Kelly Johnson Josh Donaldson Jose Ramos Russell. Martin Adam Lind Justin smoak tweets Lewinsky's Devon Travis than cabinet. Ezio now for people at home. That are listening to this. Can Be like why the hell's Bobishenko junior and Kevin. Do included in this list. So when I told him we got the top sixteen BC was actually quite up there. One season was good enough to be part of the top. Sixteen glad and boats are not just based on the sample size but craig had four catchers in the sixteen th in addition to the for Martin and Jose Molina John Bach. Jeff Mathis both. You're just one year track the top sixteen which is getting out of here. Filter that out. I discussed guys. And you get to Bow Vlad already exactly saw like your conversation where we're talking about. Mathis who had gone home on the whole time. He was a blue Jay but I can see. Catchers tend to have a higher war because the fact that they are such a defensive position unfairly weights this in a conversation like this. I think where you were really hoping to talk with. Guys are have a little bit more of a full picture of the ball game or at least have some essence of offense completely agree So yeah that was the list of infielders that we are feeding of Craig has already said. He has fallen in his number. One of the employees Molina and yes trade agreements. There's another star Donaldson as my number one seat as well Going up against Kelly. Johnston may sixteen feed and I put Johnson down there because I despised him. I thought he was terrible when he was here. In the numbers back that up but also the fact. I penalize them very heavily because Aaron Hill was part of the traits of the diamondbacks or Kelly Johnson and I believe Donald with a part of that trade to a fan favorite. So yeah screw up exactly yes you want to know why have a personal gripe Kelly Johnson but I did read him Lot higher than I ever thought I would just based on references and who else is on this list. I Hate Kelly Johnson because I paid almost one hundred dollars for a full stadium stat head for my wall on my house and guess who's on the jumbotron on that fat Kelly. Johnston is Alon Kelly frigging Johnson. So anything in my backroom looking at this giant six foot by seven foot. Fat Head of of Skydome. Yes I said at Skydome. I Have Kelly Johnson's muggy on the frigging Jumbotron in center field. And I'm like come on man could have been off the other guy from that year when this random jackass took this picture for. This fat had fun. Oh always be part of it for you. He's gotTA I. Can finagle picture over it. And still their doctor a little bit. So who do you have coming in at number two again fifteen? So I have ed wing verse. Oh okay interesting. We are not far off on video. I also have been number two so there's another started. They will be locked into those seeds when we create the master bracket. So yeah as Kevin Kevin as a fifteen y y you tell me because he barely played fair. I have was Melita. So often was Molina. Jose Molina Probably would be my number sixteen but he was really good defensively so I didn't WanNa put them all the way down to the bottom And Yeah I often just said like Kelly from flab Edwin up against Jose Molina and to Richard Team so there. I have to ask as I was at this moral conundrum too and my deciding factor between jd and Edwin was the fact that Donaldson actually could play defense. Offense of numbers are not too terribly off when you look at the full tenure of Edwin Encarnacion in the Blue Jays uniform whereas the smaller condensed part of the Josh Donaldson. It's just shows you. How crazy good. Josh Donaldson was for those two years. Even twenty seventeen. When he missed time he still posted some really incredible numbers in two thousand seventeen. They add the MVP weighed heavily. It didn't number one seed and my bias would have been number one. Because he was my favorite from all castes years I like them more than Jose Bautista They just couldn't put that number one and that's also causal Microcosm Craig of his ten years of Blue Jay because he was always shadow and then eventually shadow he was waived by the team at one point was technically a twin for like five seconds. And then they're going to pay him and then he came back to us. Jackie right so the fact we are even talking about this with that love affair for somebody is so damn good. That's where he started and I couldn't believe the day they did waive all I'm like I don't care what he does. The Guy would that much pop in the American League? You fucking lead and play you find a spot. It's not rocket science. I don't care if he sits on the bench and does a you know couple pinch hits a week. He's still GONNA hit thirty home. Runs all the yeah busy? Oh because I couldn't put busy. Oh any any higher on this list regardless of that fact of what you just said is a big. Joe's other brothers in arms here. I had a little higher. Because it's how good they were in spurts or visual awareness or consistency and it was consistently Ah Learning experience is kind of how I agree. Experience Way to put it absolutely so we are in agreement on number one and number two. Are we GONNA go three three and drink over top three seeds? Craig reveal your number three number fourteen. I had Justin Smoak verstappen travis close but fell. I. We are not Klinsmann. Smoker said are Russell Martin against Al Scandalous. What did you Justin Focus number three? Explain the rationale for smoking. And I'll go into mind for Russell. Martin. I I had a big moral conundrum because I had. Martin is my next match up well. We haven't flipped. And then I had Kelly Johnston as Martin's backup are okay part of his conversation there so i. The only reason I gave smoke over Martin was the fact that when this team was starting to slide justice put this team on his back and was able to keep this team in the conversation in twenty twenty seven Teal and there was the biggest offensive pop in recent they went his team was going down. And it's kind of bum rap. Because in all reality he solidified a spot in two thousand fifteen on this team and really made it his weight. Now was the twice sixteen that we got him back. Smoke yeah or do we have easier in two thousand fifteen in mental breakdown of that but I was just thinking school. Bello way too much there for a second so but yeah I the fact that he was always getting better and then the fact that like I said he was picked this team up and put him on his back and carried them to the point. Where hey this is good stuff? And and he's been good sense so really hard for somebody that was for me to have that big of a window where he was that good in this uniform to knock them any lower than this totally fair. That's not dissimilar to why haven't met number four On my list in Tampa smoke and it's matchup in there I Have Martin. It's a re- Part of this name. Maybe a say. I'm not sure this thought every cross my mind. Let it put three Is the fact that Canadian But also box on your ballot. It did yes gave them a little bit of a boost over smoked but also you know the Blue Jays Russell. Martin was kind of that slager but being needed in twenty fifteen and he was a free agent signing that Alex Anthopoulos went out and actually opened the purse strings for everybody who previously complained about in populous with kind of starting to arrest when he signed also Martin and added that fifth year. Make sure that Russell didn't go to. The cubs was a lot of the reason why had three. But just that swagger in the fact that Russell Martin beforehand was just always consistently on play-off teams and then as I got the Blue Jay the To the playoffs and help carry that The the pitching staff to the playoffs. Now reason why. I'm liking your smoke. Seed number three is because by the time the Twenty fifteen and twenty. Sixteen playoffs come around. You could just see how tired in Dead Russell. Martin was to the point where he didn't do anything in either playoff run so I do smoke at number three Martin Number. Four for that. So my other deciding factor between the two of them was the fact that I chuck them all. I always thought that the two of them is great defenders for their positions so I washed out. How good they are on defense decision and basically kind of almost purely on offense to and as good as Russell. Martin is on offense. Justin smoak like you said was better for the whole season. Not Having to be a catcher right. Absolutely that's definitely fair so cray on the other side of these matchups. We kind of dive into three. And four th since they split I've outspoken solace up against Russell Martin at number fourteen for kind of similar recent. You have Kelly Johnston around the same matchup and then inforwars thirteen. I smoke against Kevin Visa and Bijou also for similar reasons. to you putting him at fifteen Because he's barely played but I gave him a bit of a bump Kevin Beasley or just the fact that he's going to be your in probably end up as a two or three seat number doing this now for the next decade. So you're probably one hundred percent right with that. But as far as I I couldn't have the heart of putting visual about some of the other guys and like I said the reason I put Bowen Vladi and that next tier was the fact that they were just showed insane. Flashes a why they're going to be the next best. Baseball players does the big thing. You don't have a debut like Oh shut all the time I've been out for all the people saying he had a rough season. He was awful or whatever the hell everybody wants to say. He had a better rookie performance than any recent rookie. I can think of in Major League baseball other than the elite ones like the the Aaron Judge Fifty home run year. The what was just Peter Alonzo. You don't have a guy like that going on Vlad. Junior is in that frigging rookie of the year. Conversation all day every day. But when you have somebody like Gleyber Torres that's coming up at the same time and really run away with it in New York. You know this is kind of what's going to happen so I had like. I had Alex Gonzalez in my next match. And it's funny because the first time I'd read this I went to not this Alex Gonzalez the other one the other. How the hell does he get into this bracket and I'm like all right. We had the MARLINS Alex Gonzales for one year and it was really really good. Yeah I think I gave them a fourteen. The Bat Alex. The marlins weather because the bill made for one year play punished him for his time by five twelve machining. Coming in at twelve. Yes you're correct. One hundred percent the twelve for him but I had a matchup funny enough against shortstop and too low all too low there okay. Interesting I have A number five and I have a lot of new Perot junior coming into number twelve Guerrero coming in you know. I WanNa give them bit a bit of a bump for similar reasons to you but also wanted to create some intrigue with this one when I was eating because Lindh had a really good starting his career Craig in but in the decades before so I really wasn't using that As a reason to see them so high but he still was good even when he wasn't hitting all those home runs he was consistent. Even though you sell into a bit of a platoon I towards the end of the Blue Jays career. I do think Adam. Lind started his career. Back kind of we've been to twenty nine in twenty eleven A little bit Was reason why Portland. So high. But Vlad for similar reasons where I know already from before we started recording them in a similar slot but yeah I've Lynn versus Guerrero. Outside was twelve people are GonNa like where I have flaherty on my match up to sing. Tell it's GonNa be a good way to see what had already had Linda all the way. Down my swing. Oh penalized him pretty heavily for the fact that he couldn't hit left handed pitching especially air in this part of his career. He was better earlier than the You know the angry birds era there when he was winning silver slugger awards and whatnot Against Left handed hitters are pitchers I mean but that fact that he just could not all of a sudden fight anyway to lefthanded pitching. It was barely passing the Mendoza line. I couldn't I couldn't give them any higher especially over some of these other guys. That are coming up here on my list but back to the my troy to Lewinsky verse. Alex Gonzalez matchup. Yeah people really need to stop ragging on troy to Lewinsky. I know the ending of the thing was just not very sweet. And how it worked and all the T- terrible hurt injuries. All that kind of stuff. This guy hit some of the biggest home runs in Toronto. Blue Jays history the twenty fifteen playoffs and people need to remember that we do not get troy to Lewinsky at that trade deadline. This team looks a lot goddamn different. Now you're absolutely right and I didn't take that angle into effect before slaughter them but not too far off on where you're from you but Yeah no that's That's very true And that is an intriguing. Chargers twelve Integra two overs. Alex Gonzales Craig why don't you talk with your six verse? Eleven I funny enough. I just realized this too. I have another para shortstops pitted against each other. And that's how old I knew I Jose Reyes I bow. Okay okay so why I had him there because just the fact that we didn't have really igniter in our lineup. Those few years and Jose. Reyes was that spark at the top of that lineup regardless of he wasn't the Jose Ramos of old with the Matt's the fact that you had somebody fearsome in that lineup in that top of that played really well but he wasn't up to his old. Mvp like batting award. You know levels was kind of disheartening to a lot of people and the fact that I just couldn't low overhead allows some of these other names on the because after this I have a couple of guys I would make argument that are on par with Jose Ramos. And one of those Guys Adam. Lind that you were just alluding to and I just like I said he played really well and then the fact that you turn around him I gave them plus points for giving me tried to Lewinsky so I believe if you're at eleven that is correct and I said I cannot disregard that ridiculous debut by any player absolutely and that's why I had him ranked above who I have him man. That's that's above vladi too. Yeah sure absolutely well. I have bow in the eleven spot as well. So we are aligned. There will be locked in on our rockets. We are two on eleven geologist said and I have both up again. Breath Maury I had lorries coming in at number six Craig. We all know extremely extremely polarizing as just the fact that he just dive into camera wells and get himself injured all drink so many red bull. Yeah he come back and look at threat worries. Ten years lee-jay he. I think there is a little bit of expectations that were kind of weighing down in terms of being able to be wanted to be. He was criticized for his play quite often. Warriors right around average in a lot of categories When you look at the indepth statistics. He didn't hit as much power as I thought he was. Going to. Or St Louis many basis. I thought but in the way that runs created plus department. He was at one three in his last year as a blue Jay. Two thousand fourteen. He is at Ninety seven in twenty twelve ninety five in twenty thirteen so he wants a liability by also wasn't overly good in been were a lot of high expectations on Loy but they were still some real of curiosity because the Lennox took them on In the Josh Donaldson Trade. I wanted to thank him by giving him a little bit of a higher by for happened that Lori at number six that when he got traded the white SOx yeah. You're right about that one of those guys that just it was this. Where is it going to happen because you saw in glimpses that debut in Baltimore was legendary so and then he just it never never plateaued there like you thought it was going to and you never saw the full what I thought was going to be Brett Lawrie and maybe that was unfair for all of us to put that on him but the fact that he did play the game the way he did play made me very excited and I never thought in a million years that it was gonNA turn out the way it did. I figured worst case scenario he was going to bury salvage a major league hitter for a long time. Yup I walk to for sure as a little disappointing at the end of it but The fact that he's Johnson and he wasn't terrible. I think people realize separate Laurie That didn't go his way He dealt with a lot of injuries as a result of his playbook mention on your living terrible. Now See I. Well I got I got mentioned about mine would wear lorries for the next one. But I didn't WANNA be apart. Yeah Duh we can go to seventy skin and they Sydney Laurie in your second. Then I do. And he's in my seven. I ten okay. So so you got the guy. Both guys insane expectations there one. We've only seen a little bit of so far but his minor league career should boast. Well well above what Brett Lawrie didn't his Minor Leagues. Stint bluejays tenure. So this is GonNa be interesting to see where fans picked that one because they were both fan free. They're both fan favorites at times. So yeah and I. I liked that match up a lot. More than my second comes down to talk to Seguin. Going up against dragging travis attend And this is what. I wanted to create some intrigue as well because when I was putting together my seatings like okay. I NOTE. Devon Travis was offense. Favorite is a really good kid when. I want to know if that would outshine with the voters with two loaded here at the J. Now the reason why put too much lower than you did is because I did. Pete allies them a little bit more. For the way Jay's tenure ended not his fault he was injured which is asked him to get treated story from subtle shade at the Blue Jays last year when he was with the Yankees since training All of that so that is why I have to. Oh yes well. That is my second. Ten is too low jobless and then we're not too far off on that one either. But no where you penalized and where I penalized players. And that's worth a lot of this fund is. This conversation has been and that you're seeing a little bit old new in that one too. So what swing. My sweet was holy raised against you now. Escobar so have raised at eight and you know Escobar up mind both controversial shortstops. You know how I can't remember if the Jose Reyes Story. about I believe he had similar allegations area. D- domestic abuse allegations are apparently Rights certain things on his I black. They should never ever said period. Let alone written down. Also wanted shortstops with controversy against each other. What is ironic on? How I I loved. My swing guys together was Lyndon Escobar Eddie to yes I had eight nine for Linden Khobar and I did that because they were both pro. They ended up both ending their bluejays tenure as locker room problems. Yeah very so where Adam? Winds work ethic was brought into question at the end of his career and rightfully cell. Because it sounded like. He wasn't doing the work he should have been doing. You know maintain major league status and then you kneel you ask kind of being I guess the nicest way it'd being is a ship back all of a sudden. That guy was pretty good but I just him into anything after that. And that's why I had them at my swing. I just didn't really know what to do with them. Yeah no I very similar. That's why I have ninety S. That's where he will fall when When we open this up to voters and we put into the gas so yeah we both have controversial against controversial and atheist nine for different reasons but similar at the Blue Jays fans. If you have not heard Brennan Pancaro myself. Craig Shenanigans on Jaybird watching you WanNa start something on your own. You can join us right here on the anchor dot. Fm Family and jump right in with whatever podcasting pleasures you want with a wonderfully free platform and Brennan. Does it get any better than that? It doesn't get any better that Craig. What's explain a little bit more? You have creation tools that allow you to record and edit your pockets right from your phone or computer. That's pretty damn good isn't it? Yeah now the mention the fact that it just goes right out to the Internet to all the wonderful podcasting pleasure places as far as spotify apple itunes and all that kind of good stuff one-stop shopping. And then they're even helping us get wonderful. Podcasts sponsors Brandon how one-stop shopping right. It is and you know what you can make money from your podcast to by being able to go through and there is no minimum listenership. All you have to do. It's to Richard Addison. You could make money. We've made money. Why don't you want to make money too? Yeah so as far as it goes. You're only call to action here. Folks be wanting your own. Podcast makes you download the Free Anchor? Dot FM APP or go to Anchor Dot F. M. on your web browser and get started right today until then keep listening to Jaybird watching. So we come through starters in infielders. Shall we stick with the offense aside or should we go back to? I Guess Happier Times with relievers. I think you WANNA happier. You said you wanted to end on the dumpster dive. It's gotTa go through our outfield. I think so this. Call Craig in terms of relievers. There's an interesting here as we go through Roberto Suna Boo Tyler flippered Ryan Tara Brett Ziesel. Aaron Leap Casey Janssen Someone L. Joe Smith Scott downs delebarre. She'll be genie there. In Oliver Jason Freezer we Hendrix Ken. Giles and Dominic. We own very similar craig. I think didn't change it when you think of some of those names when they call it. Similar to the starters in that regard but one you need us off with your one verse. Sixteen it'd be do slot up at the top. I have one of my personal favorites and I just think that he was one of the better. Closers that we've had doesn't get a good rap for some reason logical but bunch bunch bluejays fans but when people bring them up they're like Oh my God I love him and as Casey Janssen. Okay and then I had him against Joe Smith but Joe Smith I can only say so much because he was there for five minutes. I can't believe he makes it shows you how we've just had the revolving door of relievers over the last decade. And somebody like Casey Janssen. Yeah I almost did. The obsolete used to Casey Janssen was one of those guys that rose to the top and took over this bullpen man. He was the guy for a long time and honestly hurt me to see him go to Washington but I was also sanely relieved at the same time that the Blue Jays Dan through brick and money atom after how he couldn't stay healthy with the Washington nationals and ended up just kind of fizzling out. So the only thing I've ever won in my life was a signed. Casey Janssen Baseball when I was down down. It's spring training in two thousand fourteen over loudspeaker. I got back to the seats with my dad and he goes. You know you really should give that ball of this kid behind us. I'm like screw that one in my life. If I get a foul ball I'll give it to the kid. Not even ten minutes later a ball comes over and barehanded and handed it to the kid and I looked at my dad and said see not awful story. Euro one hundred percent throughout with sum up Casey Janssen J. Tenure and then it just falls under the radar and I'm not sure about that because he wasn't a part of the Twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen teams and then he went off to the national fizzled out. As you mentioned he was there good as a closer for a few years there with the Pluto's Injuries SETTLED THOUGHT. He was going to be that fifth guy in our rotation for the longest time but it just it made so much more sense to move him when he was having trouble. Stay on the field through the bullpen. Paid off in a big way. We're not far off on that at. I'm actually starting to wonder if our one verse sixteen in two years fifty or completely saved match up but just a different plots because I have bret ziesel number one just because he was really really damn good for Into for a long time. That's little even as a starter. Good exactly And then Tyler Clifford at succeed Clipper did have a full you with the Blue Jays. But it wasn't spectacular. It wasn't terrible. So the fact that Joe Smith Had A really good five minutes here. why? I put him a little bit higher than sixty and input Clifford there. Now I do have Casey Janssen coming into the next one at number two for the exact same reason you said against Joe Smith Fifteen So who do you have to have it to verse? Fifty I have we literally have are one and two flipped because I saw at number two because of just he was so good for slow lawn but the fact that he never really stepped into that elite role was the reason. I couldn't give them the number one like you did. But the fact that he was like I said another guy that was going to be a starter that this that I think he had ten wins the one season the picture of the Blue Jays starter and then it just made so much more censor him because of how we just dominated lefthanded hitters to be able to just mowing down and then the fact that he was able to all you know you could get everybody out because repertoire. I had him against Dominick Leone because he had that one great season but he was turned around and sold at a high value. Yeah and it worked out for us. It did Intensive getting Randall critic. Now who will be interested to see where you come in there? But Yeah Oh we're reversed on one and two so we'll see where Adam Corsair has either of them and see if he agrees with one of characters while imagine he's probably at least in. The same ballpark is so And there I think Craig in terms of the next match up to three fourteen to me like number three is somebody who should be number one but the way his tenure ended as a blue. Jay is I have a down at three I penalize them for being a piece of shit but I also have to realize how you had the realizing give him a good senior because he was awesome when he was here. You probably still should be with the team. If he wasn't a dirtbag but I have a senior at three going begin son at fourteen and for similar reasons to buy Joe Smith at fifteen. I wanted to give us all a bit of a boost Because he did have a really good half even here before getting shipped off to Colorado. So I had and I looking this and I'm wondering if I accidentally screwed up because I actually meant to have Roberto Suna funny enough against Sawano as well and I think I felt like things around by accident because there's no way in Hell I would rated. Jason Frazier was put in here by backwards. That low always. I like Jason Fraser. So I gotTa do some flip flopping here but yes that is what I meant to have. It was on an against Roberto. Suna okay so we are locked in there that will be a match up that it set in stone dating someone and I'm assuming for very similar reasons to me. Yeah very similar and Around Sawano to get something really good to exactly and works out too well. Let's see if we can continue our funding and have another locked in notch up. Four versus teams. Reveal the way Craig. So this is where I meant to have Jason Frazier and I had him verse clip. Okay see clipper thirteen and Jason Fraser. Four interesting we've very much differ on Jason Fraser by the way. Not because they hate him. But you I'll explain the rationale for. I put her to get the frazier in your part here in a minute. I put Jason Frazier because as far as time goes we. Were having a shortage of guys. I could even just finish off games. That was somebody like. Jason Frazier had to step up and I just gave him a lot of credit for that for keeping the Blue Jays even in the conversation in the you know ridiculous standing that we always were behind the Yankees and red sox and I think a lot of that was credited to him and a couple other guys on this list and I'm just a the end of the role because he was more or less the closer during that time. Now you're absolutely right. I I have Ryan to pair for I dare and Oliver ask thirteen. Two Para was good for quite a few seasons in a row. There went to the establish himself fully in the bullpen. Most twenty seventeen but a little bit in two thousand fifteen even at a cup of coffee in Twenty fifteen where he was okay but I have two pairs for 'cause he was really good at his career And I wish him all the best with guns they're in Oliver for basically folly into the exact same reasoning proceedings with Joe Smith at someone else I put Oliver Thirteen. Three was really Dan. Good about one year but it was only for one year. So that is my cordless thirteen. So okay what's your Five verse whatever number I get. I'll be eighty five twelve very interested to see if we agree on. That's what I can gile coming in at number five Dominic LEO AND COMING UP AT TWELVE. So we happen. I got Giles and then Scott downs on okay. So we're not far away. I've got so as much as I love Scott downs. He ended up being. It was the guy what do you. Where do you put them? And that was Scott down. He was in and out of the rotation and the bullpen. He was always really good. The bullpen tried kept flip-flopping a back and forth. I think broken by Ben Ten. Giles is just so good. I know we've only had him for awhile now. But he's been really good when he's out on the mound and he has been lights freaking out and when he does yes. There might be something about that but I'm fine with that Giles. Eighty favorite mistake. Just just enough difference right absolutely. Leone again. These guys are all very similar. Similar reasons Leone one season was really did they gave him a better seed than probably should've Because he ended up turning into Randall. Grischuk but we agree on five We own twelve. You've Scott down the twelfth so I was wrong. We actually difficult to balance got downs because he comes in at number six for me. I'll give me out eleven golf and I could see why you have hendricks and I can make the argument for down to like. I said it's just it's I couldn't I don't know where to place in my listless. Because he was back and forth so often right right. Who Do you habit sixers eleven? I have Ryen Tear Ryan to pair Darren Oliver author not far on that one. We have any match up was thirty four and Oliver Thirteen also. I guess we're just GONNA call that a lock in. It'd be seeing difference so we already talked about those guys as much as I love Ryan to para I wish that we were going to get a chance to see him. Pitch a little bit more in a blue Jay uniform before I could really put them up on this list any higher. But I can't i. He had to be above the next couple guys. I had on this list lights out when we needed him. I think that was the when the unsung trades of two thousand fifteen. Yeah completely agree for seven days ten. Greg who do you have in your seven against remember can try and raise the bar with de la Bar against Joe Jeannie and I think. I think it's hilarious that I got the two guys with good nicknames right next to each other so true. I do not sake. Anywhere on any of these lists slightly upset I almost debated putting him in there. Just to yell. Fire would go but then I would be worried that people would that he would just went on popularity. Do you remember. Remember the game. We were playing with a couple of the other bluejays podcasters and writers of take two. Blue Jays affiliated people and name. Name the podcast Ro. I'm one of the ones that I used in. That might be a fun game. We can resurrect on twitter as well. But the two guys I chose. Were ruin our Kawasaki and Mark Derosa having their own podcast and calling it. I think I'm turning Japanese. Who would not wish I remember the conversation. I just can't remember who with it was goofed. Off Out of me and Ryan Frencesco goofing around on twitter during a ball game and then we ended up. Started goofing around. Back and forth tossing are thousand names and podcasts and it was it ended up being really fun so another one random stupid one that I had was getting Jason Greeley which surprised didn't make this list either and then David Wells I call it the ball boomer with cheese ever this conversation now. I just had to bring that. I was like that was a funny conversation. So nicknames of goofing goes but yeah I had Steve Delebarre Joe. Bg Eugenie in that spot. Okay so you delebarre at seven correct. Iraq's because I have him at eight but if Mike Seven slot I have jobs in the same kind of bracket you just haven't reversed you genies. You've ten against Jason Fraser at put at ten and only because even though Jason Fraser was very incredible the reason why put him so low is because it was at the very very beginning of this decade before he went off to the white sox. I believe At twenty eleven they divas on the air in twenty ten but regardless is ten years was really good so I wanted to give him a higher seed but I just couldn't put them among some of the other guys who had a little bit of a better and longer tenure or is it just. Because I've been using. Jason Frazier is the How say this but ended my blue jays emotions for years on this? Podcast stressing me out. But I love him. Oh yeah he does. Definitely somebody would stress you out there. You just could not lock it down some time before. He gets runners on and by late. Find a way to escape out of a jam. It'd be like a fake God. You crazy man so because. Oh eight nine on the wraparound before we move onto the outfield which people will get a kick out of some of the names on the list. Who Do you have coming in eight years? I Have Luke. I Hendricks So we are similar on Luke. 'cause I haven't met number nine you haven't made and I got delebarre at eight thirty nine and my reasoning for putting loop. Here was the fact that he when he was good. He was good for a good while as a blue Jay. I'm trying to seriously take the what I saw of him in buffalo out of my math because I never thought years he would ever make his way back to the major leagues again. That's how awful. He was one day when he was here against the Rochester. Red Wings in it literally looked like that scene from bull. Durham where he literally threw the ball at the ball and nail them in the head. It was that wild or Charlie Sheen taking the piece off the Metal Co. Cut Out it was that wild and I don't know what was going on. I'm like this guy can't hit water. If he threw you know fell off the boat. Is that that absolutely right. With heated in the similar bracket it's reversed all you got leap when extremely frustrating but the also giving credit With cable is one season. Funny enough. How many one hit wonders with team. It had over the last decade. That season apparently was really damn good then. He's kind of started to put it back together towards the end of his tenure which got US Jacob Leykis talk majority works out Liam Hendriks ends up. Being one of the best closers in baseball they started seeing the Start seeing the build up for this Aussie but law. I honestly I was like this is going to be one. That's going to hurt us. Would letting him go and looking back at this? It's like okay. We could have had a bullpen with him and Ken Giles. At the back of it or imagine I remember the Ra de Kissel city where he has got rocked a Liam Hendriks kept it somewhat close and the Blue Jays started a bit of clawback in that game four and it was Hendrix who was cleaning up the mess and kept it where it wasn't right. Thank you yeah. He did right the ship. It almost spurred a comeback. Until they didn't and they dropped him Bokan. I was wondering I was going to be the big thing for him. And obviously something in Oakland triggered it and I just knew there was some talent there that I wasn't expecting him to be a closer especially to this kind of clip. But Oh my God I never thought a million years. He wouldn't be anything but a setup guy at a minimum if he found that led to his repertoire and he obviously founded in spades. Absolutely well Craig. Relief for side of the bracket we haven't identical match up for the first time tonight with Roberto. Sooner if someone in three fourteen we also have a very similar magic. Just not seated in the same one for us at Ryan's a tear dared Allah who they will be together in the bracket we have child at five so I think that was the best one in terms of matching it up together though the last one and late and TV. Some of these names on here Craig. It just makes you realize how is poor bluejays. Outfield has been in twenty ten and has not for Jose freaking Batista. The outfield will be a joke audience. Expectations and greatness all the way to literally looks like a dollar by dollar general or anything and everything in between and I just don't know how I can get any better with somebody's equations that are put into this and it made me. This is where I spent all my time when you sent me the list. I'm like you've got to be kidding. Me How fashion because there's something that's all. I will say that we go through this list and reveal who made the topics all the guys who are now. I added the mini earth-like. So the move at the plan makes sense and specifically focusing on like a Rajai Davis or Michael funders or Milky Cabrera so nice there but in addition to those three great we have Jose. Obviously Fred Lewis. Eric Seems Kevin Pawar. Mike McCoy yes. Mike McCoy who played everywhere had a lot of games in the outfield and it was basically Milton Workplace. Between Vegas and Toronto. How badly McCloy got pissed off. What he saw. The partnership of Buffalo is there to be like. Oh I could take lower. Yeah it's all just a throw out there. Mike McCoy might have made more money and frequent flyer miles needed for as major league contract. Those years just sank. I fully believe it. I fully fully believe it. Mike McCauley make this outfield lift from the time that is spent there as e Keel Carreira. Colby rat's lips Chavez Snyder Vernon Wells fargos Milky Cabrera. There said sorry the Oscar Hernandez Randall. Grischuk lured escorial junior in addition to Davis And Saunders sue I referred to already so I don't think we're differing number one. I don't think there's any rationale for the person to not be number one so I think we already know you're telling me it's Mike. Mccoy McCoy was my number one seed again closely back to Houston Sixteen Opposite yes I I had Jose Against Eric themes and I I the reason we're making fun of the obviously or is the fact that Jose Bautista is everything to this organization over the last decade. And some. There's no better saying it and this is not even. I don't even know the backflips epic moment for him. Obviously and I. I'm glad he got that moment. But all my God he has been a wrecking ball for the American league in for like the easy a decade. Yeah one hundred percent and I'm GONNA be interested to see because I have a feeling that at the end of all this Craig will end up being back east as voted by the San depending on how the match ups play out. But I'm I think more so just for the discussions over the next few weeks in terms of who moved on and maybe the rationale for the way the fans voted. That'll be more so the intrigue even if he does end up winning it's ultimately deserved but yes he's number one and you said sorry L. Canes Tacoma Racks Okay I had Fred Lewis at sixty and then I wasn't far off with where I put a name. I in front Lewis my next match up. But I'M GONNA I'M GONNA give this to the Blue Jays fans. Fred Lewis is the Anthony Alford from the beginning of the decade. You are so right with that. Because Lewis at the off her terry similar up there so I was. I was sitting here. I was I was playing. I think it was. Mvp Baseball at the time. Fred Lewis ended up being a wrecking ball for my based on the potential stuff in that like I'll the show rating started on like you know if you were going to put that in that ballpark at a fifty and by the time I was four or five seasons in he was in my eighties and he's one of my better players. Oh Yeah it was this. This is the kind of talent that Fred Lewis had. It just never came together and I really like I said. Hey compared him to Anthony Alford but right now. That's exactly what's going on and I hope Anthony. Alfred's better shape than Fred. Lewis got. No you're right in a very separate I Friendliness I think is kind of a fan favorite away. And the fact that everybody was excited they brought him in because of the potential just never panned out which is why sixteen while. You're fifteen off a very similar reasons. Maybe we haven't exactly reversed because I'm eric with fifty Who is your number? Two going up against Fred Lewis v DUBS. Yeah well okay. So I have to mention one thing about Eric Zone mess. This conversation is completely different. Eric themes to everybody. That didn't get to see him. Play at this part of the decade for the Blue Jays looks I- tentacle just being. But he couldn't hit. He was playing a decent outfield. It was kind of one of those things where he played his bat. Didn't carry him enough. That play 'em in the outfield. So what did he do go over to? Korea comes back and hits way too. Many home runs for the Milwaukee. Brewers I I said when that was happening I said the Blue Jays really really really really really really need to be paying him and bringing him back to Toronto and I would have been right if the Blue Jays signed with. Had a solid all round outfield with Post Korea. Eric themes with company in the outfield. Imagine that lineup having Eric themes playing field behind Edwin Battista Martin. Everybody that would be insane even to be else. Even if you only bats to sixty and it's twenty home runs it would have been nuts so but when he was batting a buck thirty the began the decade with blue days. The pop was there but he couldn't hit enough consistently to get out of the basement on this argument and I gave Fred Lewis the edge because that potential that we unfortunately didn't get see. Yes that's very fair. You know what I was going through. And we were totals and started to get people in there. Were some who had better totals than air things like Chris? Paul Bellot but the reason why I had things in here instead of Tola. Bella or Danny Valencia. Both of those who just missed the cut was because they also played other positions primarily but they had a much bigger sample size they phase was not worth a thing to the. Blue Jays won stained here. He was zere worth exactly zero. You didn't hurt them. He didn't help them all. I like where you have stayed in France. Louis I probably will reverse it myself Or it will be interesting to see if I of course L. So you're number two seed I can blur Guide pool are very overrated But defense incredible There's where most wargame from exactly it was other than twenty fifteen where he actually did look somewhat competent at the plate but plyer fan favorite And the fact that he was one of the most valuable outfielders on this entire list Sh- was shocking to me Considering some of the other names that could have probably shouldn't have been better It's not for the defense to lar- may not have made this list. But the fact that he was fan favorite I think Pulled pulled a lot of weight into my decision to put him at number two. Okay so did you have walls and number three then now okay. I completely opposite averted well-spent. My biggest thing is yes for any wheels didn't live up to the contract that he signed but look at those teams in those years he was still won best contributing players on those rosters played. And that's why I had him ranked above Kevin. Clar who I had in my third spot so I had dubs verse Fred Lewis and my second spot and then in my net my third. I had Kevin Mike McCoy. Okay so actually. Yeah I as Mike Maclay at fourteen as well. So Mike McCoy we'll be locked in to fourteen point not too far off in our ranking I probably rats Mus Three But before I get into that why. They applaud at three for similar reasons ear with a little bit different. I kind of rank him above her wells went vernon wells was also a plus center fielder as a defenseman and then he actually could hit his weight very fair. So I'm trying not to let too much of the previous decade very wells bleed into this conversation bought the fact that like I said he was a main contributor on those teams that he did play on in this decade right his wife had him ranked coming. Klar KEVIN FLOWER. I have him in my third seed because he had just enough offense with a gold. What should have been a gold glove caliber centerfielder right now? Yeah I mean I agree with that. She I know right. Imagine how many more goal clubs comply with hockey gear mar so I thought the hospice at three because is another guy who just. That's so much talent. Viskhan put together about once. Even there was one really good season. Maccabi Rod Smith was a shade below four win player. When you get it before win players on fan graphs getting into the very good range. Not a lease but very good Erasmus had one of those years here for the Blue Jays So we did that kind of heavily. I also probably had a little bit of bias here. but roughness also had a little bit of a longer tenure than some of the other guys who have see below Colby and like the four and five matchup says we'll get into in a but I liked. Pull your accent thing. He got a little bit of an unfair shake here but at the same time he didn't exactly help this case with demeter And just how we carry themselves off field and having his daddy helped and help either fell apart in Saint Louis. That's my question. Oh God I don't even wanted a doing right now. Show they still have him as a free agent and it has that picture on it all there. His last player photo. So it's GonNa live on me until he officially retires on every baseball outlet so I guess he hasn't officially filed his retirement papers because the last time when the only thing I see when I look up Kobe Wrath on Jan graphs rashness is quote done and enjoying life. John says not by. I guess the retirement papers have officially been submitted to the thirty three. I said he could come back and do something just to throw that out there. That's about whereas workout is not fully their house. They got not fully retired. Everybody knows exactly interested to see some of the next guy's fault because there are some who I could make a case maybe rank above colby but just didn't have a long enough sample size here. Who did you have at four versus thirteen? I had I N Malki versus okay. I had milky Florida's. Well okay so I and the reason I have milky above Rasmus on my side is because Malki was just that damn good those couple of years for the Blue Jays and I couldn't pull him down any lower on this list especially when I was looking at who was on the list like okay. I attacked it. From the Ballpark of who had the best period overall performance? Regardless of sample size Milky Cabrera was a force for the Blue Jays. And honestly I was really sad to see him go because he ended up having a few more good years and outfield where we could really use the leftfielder. Yeah could you imagine milky? Stay around for the plenty fifteen season. Same argument that I made with you went out and shop for Eric themes when you get real center. Fielder are real left field. Or somebody like Chris. Kulla below that you can watch them hit but he's GonNa kick the ball around the outfield a little bit. Yeah no I haven't in the exactly plot for the same reason Twenty thirteen where everything went wrong for the Blue Jason's of injuries even the fact that he could barely swing a bat because of a bad back he still managed to seventy nine and then when he was fully healthy and then how to really good twenty fourteen and that was one of his best seasons in the big leagues for years. Worth three point one win. There's only two season where Milky Cabrera was better Yes no milky Was Fantastic in twenty fourteen and for the exact same reason is you. That's why haven't that number four Some extra points on my list for completely screwing over the red sox earlier in his career as a Yankee so that was yeah. That was one of the best catches. World Series Baseball or baseball. I mean because I was just saying play. Summerfield is remember that he was that good to play center field at point. And that's how fast is body times crapped out on him and why he added H H. He's got bigger rather quickly could move and play center field anymore so he was really good with the Blue Jays and honestly that that dugout clicked really well with him. Jose and Company and there was a there is a good amount of swagger that he brought equation with the Blue Jays in two thousand fourteen and was sad to see him leave by. Like you said it would've been really nice to see linger around for that extra season. I might have been the last thing. We really needed to push us over the hurdle against the team. Funny enough was one of his old employers to in the Kansas. Yeah now you're at twenty fourteen. Th Malki was probably one of the best players on Could have and probably should have if they didn't just completely flame out at the end of August. Make the playoffs Napoli Jay Steed was in a playoff spot until mid August and then it just kind of all derailed after that. So and then I Zeke. You'll Carreira because I just think his pop culture push bringing the actual parrot to the dugout was humorous enough to put reality. That's where this list all of a sudden goes to shit. We have a long fourth and fifth outfielders on this list. That are on normal. You know are starting outfielders because how thin we were in those outfield spots. Oh God no. You're absolutely right. That's why five was tough for me to get sick and seven eight with where I have. These guys My thirteen really quickly. I've API ghosts Put America's I was despite his crazy steed Go so is another one of the disappointment. But now we're seeing and come back to the pitcher and he was looking really damn good in spring training. Fred leaving ndsu right yes touchy like Ninety Eight. I saw him actually funny enough when I was at a lansing lug nuts game two years ago and I'm like Oh my God it's Anthony. Ghosts pitching for the crap. Trae jeeter downs to the Red Sox We'll trade. So I remember I got to see jeeter downs in that game. Go just completely postal on a ball in the left field wall and then I saw Anthony. Ghosts pitching a game with that. I'm like hell is going on. I'm seeing top prospects of old and I. I admit I was very intrigued by the gase had but he couldn't control it so if he's taken that next step for the Indians good power on him man. This is the guy that we ask of Roy. Halladay trade for most Blue Jays fans. There's actually playing a major league baseball. It's crazy goes still only twenty nine so he could still make a nice little career other reliever if he's able to stay in. Kiel. Yeah pretty much asked us. This will be too much of a disappointment to me. And I'd penalized and heavily for that. Yeah we're in agreement on Milky so I wonder if we're agreement on number five. Who is your five. Wish you luck no five and twelve. We're actually finding out two guys talking about had Colby Rasmus Verse Anthony Goes. Oh Okay so ironic. I have Michael Saunders. That's five against traveled Snyder. Twelve in the only think I know. Well actually this is GonNa be interested because Rasmusen my three five would be exactly in the middle to be number four but we've agreed on milky there so it'll be it everything so of course here has called up four that were in a little bit of trouble. That's exactly it. That's how these things I m saunders at five against Travis Snider Twelve so that's a pretty good one. I I agree with that because like we were saying a lot of this is going to be a constant Russian roulette athletes and whatever spray and pray happens on this piece of paper. I had in that matchup for the next one here. I had a Oscar Hernandez Rodger Davis. Okay so that's used five versus twelve or thirty six. Yes so so wait. Sorry that you're six and eleven I and then Rajai Davis okay. I Have David Eleven I miss on Oscar by one At Second Richardson the Richardson. Who tickets that reversed big. So the reason I put tasker over Gretchen is the fact that there's just insane amount of power and you can make the argument that both identical to the swing and miss it everything but the fact. I I honestly. I'm more intrigued at this point by the pure pop of Toscano Hernandez verse Randall. Grischuk and I really think that's partly because I don't think that tasker Hernandez actually going to be in the outfield conversation. Much longer. No I don't either. I think that similar kind of switched to Edwin. That could unlock it. Not all stars When he doesn't have to worry about defense anymore The very similar reasons I think we almost identical seatings on both of them for the exactly and then Then Raji Davis Rajai Davis had a good tenure with trial bluejays. When his biggest problem was he couldn't steal first base. Yeah true and And I was just wondering if he was ever GonNA figure out and he ended up having a. I'm going to say he ended up getting a little bit better after leaving. Toronto BUT IT WAS QUICKLY FIZZLED OUT. And he had that epic home run in the playoffs. That was so cool. It was fun to watch that. I'M NOT GONNA lie. I was very. I felt a little nice about that because I actually had the pleasure of meeting Rodger Davis at one point and he's a guy I here for him. It was just so yes. He is a very nice guy. That's what I've heard. I think I've met him what I can't remember the rush as a good dude For same reasons I haven't met eleven He's okay like he wasn't a liability I don't think he brought a whole lot to the Blue Jays when he was here And he was one of those guys with said earlier that when I was going through this list the addition of him just made sense and I believe he was added twenty ten and was here until the end of the twenty twelve season So he has because he did wear the New Jersey's for one year when they switched to those but yeah date is When they got him made sense because in years prior they didn't have a center fielder after burn wealth washed continental. Yeah exactly yeah. Russia was supposed to be but he wasn't quite but he was not terrible. Like I said it was a problem was he can't steal first base. It's there's the whole summary for his for his baseball career. He had good stuff going on by the fact that he just couldn't get on first base and really show what he could do with his legs. Because I was his special tool the end up showing up at the end of his career to keep them employed but that was his main tool that. Everybody was very intrigued and salivating over at say. True Up to one assets Craig. I know we've been going on this for a while but it'd been fun I'm not disappointed at the episode life by any means and I hope our listeners are either bust the last two matches you know feel Obviously we already have revealed where reverse on where we have. Grischuk Antioch Star and are six or seven's But Mike Tan Up Against Yasser as easy Carreira And for similar reasons. I'm trying to think of who it was earlier that we were going through those kind of just like a full Kiro And a little bit of a cult following and fan was It was the Carreira. Did come up with some massive hits in two thousand sixteen to leave. He got in the winning run on the second last day of the regular season against the red sox typically Jason. Two one win or three to win That day and as soon as it did it was yes. That was the decider. It came to the making sure that we did make it. And I believe you're right. I believe it was the Equivalent to that but he also tied the game up against the Orioles In the wildcard game and it was two one after the the Trumbull home. Run Yeah Tied to and he did also was. He was pretty good in Cleveland series. He's a little bit of igniter so I did give the a little bit of a bump For that even though he was a fourth outfielder in a really good team he'd be outfielder. Yes that's why I have the all the way so my matchup there was randall. Grischuk Bert Loris okay. I literally sliced bread. Matchup going on here because you can make the argument that Laura Juniors apple size is short. What great and then Greg Shakes has been a bigger window but it's GONNA be interesting to see if Everything rich comes up here. We're GONNA have subpoena power my match so eight verse nine in the last one craig. I do have learned at eight I gave him a bump just because he's been a little bit longer. But this is where we completely differ on Vernon Wells. Because I'VE LEARNED TO WELD AT NINE. I gave him a ninth want because it was only the one year in this decade. It was a really good year that Vernon Wells was here and I give him a little bit of a boost on the nine seat. Because you know there's only one year the ten year beforehand was just simply incredible but I also did this kind of strategically because I want to see if people will believe in their stereo enough from his longer tenure in this decade from Lord Or sorry over wells. The point where people may consider neverthe- wells was the face of the franchise in earlier decades and he was really good the one year. So maybe we'll give him a LO over mortis. I just Kinda wanted to do that for the intrigue But I also did penalize Vernon much more than you did just because it was only the one year decade so the reason that I've been burned Walsworth I did is freely. You look at this list. You're not long talent. He is better than ninety percent of this list even at that one year so I could not bring myself to the Humana bringing him below. Kevin poole are in Milky Cabrera. That's why I ranked burn wells as high as I did. Yes then might. Have you know some bleed in the previous decade and whatnot? But he did finish on a high note with the Blue Jays. And I couldn't penalize them for that and it's not much not in shouldn't a game on that giant contract. That's not his fault agent. Did THEIR JOB. Yay cashed in quite nicely and the fact that that contract was moved some Still to this day remain massive mystery to me completely. The reason he got that huge contract. You remember. Maybe you don't but the year that he debut. That was one of the most ridiculous first full seasons for a player in at that time. This is a guy that Bali went punch for punch with Carlos. Delgado in that lineup right. That would be in. What oth three Caro- crazy year? That Delgado had yeah. You're A playoff performance freaks racket for everybody. So but yeah th-the and that's what people forget. That's how good he was and he was that gather a long time. And that's why he got that contract and then unfortunately that contracts you'll never happened for the link that it happened. Dollar amount might have been right for shorter term but it was way to fully equally loaded throughout the whole contracting. Like you said I can't believe we off loaded that and then who ends up biting the bullet that made me feel the best about the whole thing the New York Yankees so I was actually thinking that year to start the season with my dad when he was playing Luffield for the Yankees Spring Training. We you know. Hey Vernon how you doing? L. Talking to them from the third base baseline and it was a good time. You still get sport is. He's a good dude. Very good guy that community to Very well you have in your eight verse Nine Creek Travis. Snider Verse Michael Saunders. And that's where my one weird one from yours is as you. I could not give him the because it was literally the best player in baseball versus the all my God. Why are you here in? He went from being an all star to a guy that was a fourth outfielder. Really really quickly and I just couldn't give them any higher on this list and then I kind of lump them into that same ballpark is travis. Travis Snider Played Very Lawn with trump blue jays but never really put it all together. Yeah Travis Snider was a disappointment To say the least there was some really good spirits really. Dan Good Spirit And then it just totally fell apart for whatever reason so I I do like where you have Michael Saunders actually. I think I was a little generous to him. Based on this first half of two thousand sixteen and maybe I'm forgetting how bad his second half was because you're right. It was bad. Could half of the season so they yeah that Craig it's been a long episodes. This has been one GonNa set it up for the next number of weeks when we bring it up into the we split down the middle and have two episodes this week enough easy when We are going to be creating master bracket so for fans listening if you've listened as far. Thank you or yes. Maybe we'll split it into But regardless For fans listening this far it is episode. What pregnant are going to do now is we had some locked in match ups. We have some locked in seeds with players in their spots but we are going to determine this bracket let Adam Corsair our good buddy determine his Brockett and we'll see what he says and we will create the master bracket baseball and create the match ups. Which you will be able to vote on twitter To determine the best bluejays player of twenty ten is crazy Gemini final thoughts on the exercise from what we've done to this point Or maybe just some general feedback or excitement on Moving forward with this project. Yeah I'm looking forward to where some of these matchups are goes. I think we got some intriguing here each position and I'm just looking forward to the conversation with everybody on twitter and I almost feel like we're going to have to have for can call in or something at some point here to help everybody keep sandy going through these less than two weeks or after we get through a couple of days in the first round. We'll have a breakdown show or something but this is just the tip of the iceberg or some of the fun we have coming here on. Jaber watching everybody. Especially now we have. Our third bind melted into this wonderful concoction that we have going on your Me Brendan and of course. There are doing a very good job of coming up with content in this wonderfully weird time that we're all going through here with no sports. Got Everything coming so this is just the beginning and I really am looking forward to the conversation with Blue Jays fans on what they think about these matchups in where the seating goes in the actual bracket. Yeah it'd be fun to get people's feedback hopefully Bilde the viewership a little bit more than listenership or whatever you wanNA call it To our POD. Yeah my hope Craig. Is that As we continue go along if these discussions from this episode Can continue to hopefully the point where things get better on the coke nineteen front and we get close to the third of baseball real pan. That would be really nice but I think we bought ourselves several weeks of contracts with us for the next little which will hopefully take the started. Seeing some yeah. We're all in this far as global view. Here we're almost in. The Inverse League are Inverse field of dreams thing going here if you stay away from it people come eventually so But Yeah it's GonNa be good when I think we're going to have to divide this up to episodes man because his envy along. Listen so maybe we used to kick off our first. Two parts of the conversation. Starting pitchers infielders in our first round of votes and then we can release his other one later in the week and start the other stuff. Yes I am totally on board without though if you want us all together people who listen do it. It'll be one but it will also be to. Maybe Tracy Ledger Man. It has been a pleasure. It's been a long one but it's been a good one Looking forward to hearing everybody's opinions on the matter in terms of how this bracket breaks down once we have other opinions and whatnot but until then please come back baseball. Please come back baseball. And let's go blue Jays luck.

Toronto Blue Jays Alex Gonzales Craig Ricky Romero Marcus Stroman Trent Thornton Josh Donaldson Josh Donaldson Jose Ramos Russ Shaun Marcum Russell Martin Toronto Matt Chapman David price marlins Mvp Henderson Alvarez twitter Justin Smoak Craig Gordon Aaron Sanchez Lear Yano Henderson Alvarez Ca
Effectively Wild Episode 1588: Full Nelson

Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast

56:17 min | 4 months ago

Effectively Wild Episode 1588: Full Nelson

"Hey. Third. Schreider Bank. A. Raw. Who All? Look. Good morning and welcome to episode fifteen, Eighty, eight of. Baseball podcast from Ben Graphs. Dot. com brought to you by our Patriots Orders Sam Miller of ESPN Finland burgum the ringer, and then you have something to say, yeah just a couple of quick things I wanted to mention that Of course, we lost another hall of Famer over the weekend. Lou. Brock shortly after the passing of Tom seaver and one of the first things I. Did when I saw the news about brock was to go look up there better versus pitcher status I. Think a few other people did and as others have noted, they were each other's most common opponent. So they faced each other hundred, fifty seven times brock was the most common battersea forever faced seaver was the most common pitcher brock faced and seaver definitely got the best of it. He had a six thirty six opiates allowed against brock, which was not much different from his six twenty, six opium allowed career against everyone. So he kind of had the upper hand in their head to head matchup, but they were kind of linked in that sense also in the sense that they were both nicknamed the franchise but wanted to just mention something that Sarah Sanchez. The writer in podcast tweeted Brek Steph because when seaver died, we were talking about how circumstances dictate players, careers, and the way that they remembered an insider's case it was free agency and the draft, and that Weird Derby that there was just a lottery to sign seaver after the whole mix up with his initial signing and drafting and in Brock's case, it was more nefarious force. I. Think that shaped his career in how we remember him. So Sarah was tweeting an excerpt from Chicago reader article from two, thousand, fourteen I will link but it says there was an unwritten quota system in baseball buccaneer wrote in a two thousand, two essay in Baseball as America a book published for the National Baseball Hall of fame they didn't want but so many black kids on. A major. League ballclub O'Neill was a cubs coach in nineteen sixty four when the team had five black players. One of them was a young outfielder named Lou Brock. When O'Neill heard that general manager John Holland was planning to trade brock. He advised him not to I. Don't think we'll have our best ball club on the field. He told Holland O'Neill wrote in his essay that and Then started pulling out letters and notes from people season ticket holders saying that their grandfather had season tickets here at Wrigley field or their grandmother and their families had come here for years and you know what these letters went on to say, what are you trying to make the Chicago cubs into the Kansas City monarchs and the cubs traded brock to Saint Louis that summer for? Sore Armed White Pitcher any broke Leo it's regarded as one of the worst traits in baseball history rock helped the cardinals win the world series that year went on to set many based billing records and total more than three thousand hits on his way to the hall of fame broke. Leo Won Seven Games for the cubs before his arm forced him to retire in nineteen sixty six. And it continues banks told me the author of this article. He recalled the club trading away many young black players they were with us two years, and then we'd trade them. I don't know why maybe they just wanted more a veteran players. Bank said the early black major leaguers often express regrets to each other about missing college. We played the game because we wanted to make enough money to send their kids to college. He said that was a key thing for me and Billy Williams and Willie mays and Hank Aaron. He said someone in the Wrigley Family told him Williams that the club would ensure that their kids got caught scholarships their children are long since grown and bank said they never got the promised scholarships. He said he and Williams still joke about it when. They get together. I'll say billy where those scholarships our kids are GonNa get. So everyone knows the Rockford broke Leo trade that was in every obituary if that comes up every time Branca's mentioned but the backstory for that trade probably a little less well-known. So mentioned that I didn't know that I I think I always filed the brock for Breglio Trade Kinda like the you know the Bagwell for Larry Anderson Trade in the SMOLTZ for Oil Alexandra where it's like a sort of a a young player who years later made really regret. It the Ryne Sandberg Trade. Those are the sort of I think of, and in all those cases and Berg Bagwell smoltz player was not a really a major league immediately regular that point Brock I did not realize that he unlike those other ones immediately humiliated the cubs. Yes and made them look really really really I mean just atrocious. So he got traded midseason and he had point to war with the cubs and five point seven war with the cardinals that year, which makes it actually his best season that was his best. Season, he was twenty five years old after the trade. He became an MVP candidate and ended up finishing tenth in MVP voting that year a despite playing you know two months with the cubs he the MVP vote entirely reflects what he did after the trade. So I mean really like an immediate all time you know disaster for the cubs and it's good. I mean comically grunk glad that the GM's didn't get three years of of of distance from him from doing that, right? Yeah and so when people talk about the cubs curse. And the red SOx curse out of that curse was self inflicted of those teams had legacies of the sort of thing. After the color barrier was ostensibly broken there were still sort of a quota system and some teams were more rigid about that than others and they paid the price because they they didn't have the best talent and You know they sorta deserved it. They brought it on themselves in that way although it is interesting that also looking at the post-dispatch Obituary for Brock by Rick Komo and in that piece. It's mentioned that the cardinals hated that trait the cardinals players initially at least didn't like it at all it quotes Gibson as saying we thought it was the worst trade ever and Tim Carver said we were so close to broke Leo. Our friendship blinded us to what kind of effect Lou would have on the team until we saw him run. So that's kind of interesting like maybe the cubs players may not have liked it because they knew how good br quals but the cardinals players didn't know what they were getting either. You know in those days I think players didn't have maybe as great. A sense of how good players on other teams where and I think it's just the natural tendency that players get attached to their teammates, and that's one reason why you wouldn't necessarily want players running the team. You know 'cause they get attached to their players at something that we went through with the stoppers to we saw that players didn't want certain Buddhist made because they liked guys or they didn't like guys and they weren't able to look past that or. We were affected by that ourselves because we grew to like Kaiser not like ice and sometimes that can make you miss. You know the the talent and the performance and they didn't know I guess that Broke Leo wasn't going to last very long of course. Yeah and on a lighter note I saw quote in a game story which I don't often read these days. But Craig Calcaterra linked to it is was an AP story about dodgers game in Gavin the rookie hit two homers in that game and here was his quote. Anytime you help the team win, it's always good. Just going up looking to have a good at bat trying to help any way I can I got a pretty good pitch to hit the pets is only quote in the whole story and I can't really think of a more bowl Durham cliche cliche quote than that. Teach me something new bad need to learn. Well you got something to write with good. It's time to work on your knees interviews what I gotTa do. Learn. And have to study them you're going to have to node. Through your friends read this down? We got to play him one day at a time. Pretty Boring course born that's the point right down. I'm just happy to be here. I can help the ballclub. I. Know. Right down. I just, WANNA give it. My Best Shot. The good Lord Willing. Things, will work out. Thanks will work out. I think that might be like the platonic ideal of the baseball Cliche postgame quote that's like the one that people point to when they say we don't need game stories anymore because players don't say anything reviewing this is like exhibit A. and I kinda wonder whether I assumed that Lex was schooled in the sort of cliche speak in the way that nuclear Louche was by crash Davis or maybe by a media relations person coming up or maybe he just you know pick picked it up by osmosis maybe he picked it up from bolder from all I know or from teammates veterans, but this is just such a quintessential. Strung together like three different Cliche D- quotes just into one quote anytime you helped the team win. It's good. Just going up there looking to have a good at bat trying to help any way I can I got a pretty good pitch to hit and I feel like I. Don't know if I were a baseball player I think I understand why they default to this because people are always. Asking them what was that pitcher hit? What did you do there and there's only so much you can say really and I got a pretty good pitch to hit often is actually the case and just going up there looking to have a good at bat it's not untrue and what are you supposed to say exactly there's not always a great story that goes along with a hit like well. I knew he was setting me up for this because he threw me that in the first that bad and I took this one because of this and then I thought this was a that put. It was at this like there's usually not anything that interesting to say it's just well I'm a baseball player I've swung it hundreds of thousands of pitches I'm pretty good at this I happened to. Hit this one well, but I don't think I could bring myself to do this. If I were baseball player or if I were a rookie even like it's not like he's been doing this for twenty years at this point like it's off new and fresh and exciting to him relatively speaking I feel like it would take me a few years of being asked this in big league games to. Pound away from my will to answer an interesting way. You don't have a lot of time to think you know like someone asks you the question and then they're immediately looking at you to respond, and the safe thing to do is to definitely repeat the thing that the thirty seven year old veteran said a few days earlier and it just you know it's okay to say I'm just trying to help the team win and I wonder if in general if. These players had say we're given the questions in advance and then had thirty minutes to think about them and then come back and answer if you would get a collectively a more interesting group of responses or less interesting group of responses because the the immediacy of the reply I probably makes them. You know like almost go lizard brain and just be extremely cautious and like there's not even really any incentive. To think about the question because in a lot of cases all that might do is make you accidentally say something bolden regrettable I should say bold and more regrettable on the other some players are interesting and that specifically because they they answer the questions like spontaneously and if you gave them thirty minutes, they might talk themselves out of the good answers that you get from the good place. So. You would probably would lose the the good answers from the players who give good answers now, but you might get more thoughtful. I think you would get a more thoughtful question answer from I don't know if Davin Lux would or not. But there are probably players who I bet there are players who go home and think of what they should have said and WanNa Kim WanNa. Go back in and Costanza it. Yeah probably, but you know you're going to get that question rate. If you've hit the two homers in the game, you're the the offensive hero someone's GonNa come up and say what did you see or what did he throw you? What did you do out there and he's gotten that question many times in the past which I guess is why he answered this way but yeah. Like he's not gonNA get in trouble. He's not gonNA unintentionally slight the pitcher something and say something that would offend anyone or be used as fuel by the opposing team or something, but I don't know it just I think I I would feel a lot of pressure to say something interesting I guess maybe what's surprising about this isn't that he said it but that it was printed. It. ADDS nothing to to the peace whatsoever. So maybe you're more likely to get one of these cliche quotes into a story now, just because you don't have access to the clubhouse and only certain players are available and you might not actually get to ask a question and so if you're tasked with writing a game story, which fewer people are these days. But if you are, then you have fewer quotes to pick from I guess but you know lex has been a top prospect for. A while now and he's been a professional baseball player for four years or so. So He's gotten this question many times before I think and I guess he's just decided well, I'm not going to devote any portion of my mental energy to entering this. You know I've got all these other things on my mind. I am just going to pass basically on this kind of question just give a stock wrote answer in either I won't have to think about it or ideally they'll just stop asking me this question in the. Future like the closest I can come to this from personal experience. I've never been interviewed as much as a major league baseball player has an certainly haven't been asked the same question as many times as Gavin locks has been some form of this question. But of course, it's they can think is when the only rule and the machine came out and our publicist scheduled these radio block interviews where it was like twenty or more radio interviews in a single day or or half a day just back to back to back. To back and they were with hosts all over the country and none of the hosts said read the book. So they just you know they were looking for guests and they just booked me because head book out and so they got some fact sheet about the book and they just kind of ask some questions and there is no variety or insight whatsoever and I knew that the person asking me wasn't actually all that interested and odds are no one listening was all that interested and so I probably did give. Some form of the the same answer to multiple hosts who asked me those questions but that was extreme circumstances. I would say that I was losing my voice by the end of it, and also I wasn't giving cliche dancers I was just giving the same answers that would have ideally sounded original to people in different markets who were not hearing every interview I was giving my favorite cliche dancer recently was when the Fox broadcast had. Fernanda tease junior miked up and you know it's a similar thing where he's being. The audio is cool and charming but also there's a lot of pressure on him. He's in the middle of a he was playing jazz DOPP and now so there's a lot of i. mean if you wanted someone to be clever and like tell you a funny joke in that scenario, it would be a lot to ask and so you know you probably even more than usual default to safe. Safe I don't even know how how maybe it was even hard to hear the broadcasters for all I know in the earpiece but at one point they they're runner gets on I in the broadcast. So all right walk us through this. How do you prepare for this double-play situation and he says, you know, just try to be myself. Yeah that's That's a lot to ask at an in game interview for a fielder. There was some discussion about that in the facebook group and about whether it was appropriate or not 'cause on the one hand. Of course, we all want for not stood talk and speak and get exposure, and that's great and I think we all like when players miked up and you get to hear them whether in an exhibition game or after the fact when they put together some clips that the players were just naturally saying but expecting them to do an interview while they're on the field, it's it's one thing to have the manager to an interview between innings or something but to have someone who's on the field like I know there's downtime between. But still, that would kinda take you out of it a little bit right mean. I saw some kind of get off my lawn type of comments or tweets about that and other people saying well, it's great any exposure for tattoos any you know it interaction with the players is positive for baseball at I'm kind of torn between those two things because I certainly agree. With the second and yet if I were doing that Jeff I don't think I would want to be interviewed in the middle of the game. I guess it's up to the player of the players comfortable with it I guess that's okay but if I were running the team I don't know that I would want that either so speaking of not a year ago I. wrote an article about the most watchable players every year of past twenty years and declared that Totti's was the current champion of that and I think we discussed I think that that should be an award and so I have been revisiting it for an article that I'm working on right now, looking at who the player is this your enemy to to be obvious and. Upfront it still at East like there's no doubt about it but in the act of kind of arranging my thoughts about this, I ranked every player who has appeared I ranked like three hundred players by most watchable and I just like who is this? Is this one higher than than than this one? Okay and until I had a spreadsheet with all of them ranked and So Nelson. Cruz is a player young and I had to rank Nelson Cruz. So ben wouldn't hear what what are your thoughts about Nelson Cruz tell me like when you hear Nelson Cruz. At this moment in in his career what what significance do you attach to 'em? How how watchable do you find him? is He someone that you would flip to see someone you would flip away from? is He someone that you would recommend a baseball FAN CHECK OUT Is there anything new under the Sun for him? What would just like what's your sort of general sense of the Nelson Cruz storyline? I'm pretty in awe of him at this point I mean he is the best hitter in baseball this year right by WRC plus is tied with trout and touchiest for the home run lead and he's ancient. He's forty years old. So it's incredible. I wrote an article five years ago more than five years ago now for Grantland about Cruz where the headline was like cowed Nelson Cruz, beat the aging curve to become one of the hitters baseball those five years ago and he's gotten better he's. A Lot. Better he added best season ever last year, and so this is not even like, oh, well, it's forty two games in a short season. He had his best season last year, and now he's having his best season this year and he is I mean, yeah, he's. He's outrageous. He leads the American League in on base percentage he leads the American league in slugging percentage and I. so as I was making this spreadsheet I was shocked that Nelson Cruz was like he's some he's floating somewhere between number three and number six in all of baseball for me right now in terms of players that I wanNA watch players who I think are going to reward me over the course of a game. With a something interesting to see. So I just thought we we should talk about him because it has been five years since he wrote that Article Nelson is not a player I mean he is existed throughout this entire podcasts history as a as a regular as. Or something like a star but we don't talk that much about crews and I feel like he is doing he has switched over from. Doing something. That's worth an article to maybe doing something that is is really like historic and so I'm just GonNa give you I'll give you. I okay. I I'm going to give you a fact and then I'm GonNa give you a list and so the fact is I mean I could do this with any age really Like I'M GONNA. Pick from age twenty eight on but you could do it from any age after twenty eight and it actually gets more impressive. But for major twenty, eight on, he's tenth all time in home runs. So the only players who've ever homered more from age twenty eight honored bonds, Ruth Aaron Palmeiro Ortiz, Tomi Maze Sosa, mcgwire and crews, and you'll notice that Sosa mcgwire Palmeiro and bonds they all had like these incredible late career surges that were tied to the PD era. David. Ortiz to although I think that it's A. While David Ortiz has A. A PD, connection it's it's I. think less suspected that that relates to his late career longevity just as Nelson Cruz at a p mentioned but I don't think that it's part of the storyline people talk about right now. So anyway, if you look at thirty five on, he's GonNa be third by the end of basically if he plays another year hill certainly be third behind bonds and Erin and if he Plays another two years they'll probably pass errands. So probably from age thirty, five on only Barry Bonds you know famously jacked Barry Bonds will have more home runs from age thirty five on and now here's a here's a list. These are players who were Nelson cruises age contemporaries in when he was twenty eight. So at the start of this run. When he basically got his first starting job in the majors as a twenty, eight year old with Texas. These are some of his age twenty, eight contemporaries in baseball. Year Hank blalock. Garrett owns Mike Jacobs. Mike Jacobs. Haven't thought about him. Well, Kevin Coups Munaf was actually a year younger than him or he can CANTU was a year younger than him. Remember Ben Francisco and remember Lance with a Y.. Lance Knicks Yeah. He. Was a contemporary of Nelson Cruz Ryan Darko was a contemporary of Nelson Cruz. Entered remembers. Remember. These are players who are ten years out of the game I, you know Mica pair. Are Pal? John Baker is the same ages Nelson Cruz. We couldn't talk him out of retirement to play on the stompers five years ago. And now he's the same age as Nelson Cruz who's the best hitter in baseball and by the way Bill Hall Bill Hall was a contemporary. Ronny Paulino Jeff. Clevinger. Love these players, but they're old, they're old they're from another era and Nelson cruises from this era. The thing about Nelson Cruz by the way Fred Lewis is that he's born on July first and so this is age thirty, nine season and all those players I compared him to where the same baseball ages him but he's born on July first, which means that he is the oldest thirty, nine year old you can possibly be he's actually forty. Now if he'd been born one day earlier than this would be his age forty season. which I believe David Ortiz retired at age forty. Yeah and if you bumped this up from, you know aged twenty nine onward he'd be you know even higher on all those leaderboards. So Yeah I. Mean I think that we have talked in in the past about how? One of the good about war obviously is that it it organizes a lot of information and makes it so that you can process it in a in a kind of orderly rational way and so that you can compare a player like Adam, Dunn with the player like one peer or a player from one area to another player from what Ballpark to the other and all those things. But the downside of it is that because it does all of that, it can make it hard to look beyond that one that one call him and can be hard to say that other things might matter as well in you sort of. End Up getting little lazy and when it comes to say the hall of fame, it's hard to justify going against the war leaderboard and Nelson Cruz I feel like has has become for me an area where I am much more impressed by the things he's done than by the war and like I it's a good war he's he's a good war. He's a good war player. He's had a great career. He's been an extremely valuable player and there's no knocking his war or anything like that. But I I think in the last couple years like maybe the last two years since he became a twin, he has crossed over from. The other forty to fifty careers in my mind to maybe something. Elevated a little higher. As one of the dozen or so most memorable players of this era. Yeah, I think that's fair because he has a extrordinary elite performance on one side of the ball rate I mean he's less watchable than tattoos in that he's only watchable in the batter's box. So he doesn't really do anything on the basis that is watchable and he's like literally on watchable in the field because he's not there. So it's only when he's betting that he is entertaining really whereas Teddy's entertaining at all times potentially entertaining at all times. But what cruises doing is equally impressive in a way it's it's not as valuable I. Mean you're not disputing that were is is appraising him yogurt accurately you're not saying he's Actually more valuable than the stat say he is. You're saying that it's more impressive than the were alone would indicate which I think is true because the fact that he has sustained this performance, not even sustained but enhanced this performance at this age is pretty shocking. I mean, he's in like all-time Great Territory for player this age as you were just describing there. So given that this skill is completely intact to an actually improving with age I am pretty blown away by that even acknowledged that he is one dimensional in the sense that he's only valuable as a better although he's valuable in many dimensions as a better I mean right now he has a three, ninety, eight, PAB, which is. Pretty lofty for a player like Nelson Cruz. All there was three fifty one last year. So it's not like he's usually a low backup guy it's just that you know he probably can't be a four hundred Bab guy with his speed, but still he's just really good. You know he strikes out a fair amount but not much more than the average the. Essays, and he walks a pretty fair mountain I. Guess he just hits the ball so hard or away in such a way that he ends up getting a lot of base hits and Gorse he hits a homers and I guess it's less impressive that he hits all these homers in the sense that he's doing it at the highest home run rate point in the. Game's history although you know he hit forty and twenty fourteen before the ball was juice. So it's not like he is a product of the juice ball or something, but it's a little less impressive if you're stacking up home runs after a certain age against players who were hitting home runs in less Homerun riddick eras, but also more impressive in that. He's totally going against the agent curve trend of this time and unlike not sort of the face of baseball and that he's part of this youth movement that has really reshaped the way players age they've seem to get to their peaks earlier and descend from their peak sooner and Nelson Cruz is just the glaring exception to that he is totally going against the trend. He's also going against by the way, the launch angle trend, his his launch angle was never particularly notable, but has actually been going down and so like the average launch angle for balls that he's hit, this year is eight degrees, which is one of the lowest in the League compared to like say might trout is twenty three degrees and joey gallows like in the high twenty s, and so he's not like a pure fly ball hitter. He's not even a fly ball hitter really which I don't know that probably helps his Bab and a lot of ways, and you wouldn't expect it to help his home runs but maybe the combination. Of his strength and the juice ball and the type of contacted he makes gives them enough home run. So yeah, I guess what I'm saying when I point out launching thing is that he doesn't seem to be in any way representative of the era like he's not he's not a product of the era in the same way that maybe some other hitters are he hasn't really changed with the era he just seems to be hitting more balls heart. The percentage of balls that he hits hard is getting better and as strikeouts continue to rise his strikeout rate hasn't gotten anywhere since that helps but really he's just a strong hitter in he. Hits the ball hard allot, and then a fun profile for a baseball player. He's not like there are I will I will say that there are homerun hitters in the game right now I don't particularly care to watch I don't particularly consider watchable and maybe I did at one point but I've kind of gotten old of the stick. But watching a to me watching a dead poll uppercut swing is kind of lost the charm. And the sort of more controlled swing of a just a naturally strong hitter is is a little bit more fun for me. So Anyway, I'm looking at Nelson cruises baseball prospectus comments. From over the years and so like as late as two, thousand eight, the smart opinion of him was that he's quote probably another quadruple a talent as late as two thousand eleven. The smart opinion was that he probably isn't the middle of the Order Hitter for a championship caliber team. So there's something about his age that is an incredible part of his story, and there's also I think something about his unlikelihood, the fact that he not only. Is lasting a long time, but the heap bloomed late and was I mean if you think about Nelson Cruz I guess in in some way, if you just look at his career, every team that has signed, him has gotten A. A. An incredible surprise and an incredible bargain. So the Rangers of course pick them up for nothing he was floating around at that point you know I was getting waved he might have even been getting weighed like Nelson Cruz was an athletic. Did you do you remember Nelson Cruz was an a? Two thousand traded by the mets to the as. For a minor leager, two thousand and four traded by the as to the brewers for keep vinter. Two Thousand and six traded as a throw in. By the brewers to the Rangers in the Carlos Francisco Cordero deal but he was just a throw in to that and then spent a couple years in the minors. So the Rangers obviously get this like Total Battista like late bloom superstar in the middle of their order, and then he hits free agency and. Remember. He do you remember this was two thousand and thirteen and he wanted a four year deal and there was like I at the time there was almost like a little, I. I. If it was a little. There was some mockery of it that that this D. H. Aging who had just come off steroids suspend. Yeah. PD mentioned was was was looking for a four year deal and that was considered very excessive by the by the off season writing and he didn't get it for you deal. He ended up settling for a one year deal for like eight million dollars with Baltimore, and then he wins the home run crown in Baltimore, and then he gets the four year deal and so at the time I think everybody went wild Nelson Cruz sure showed us. But the four year deal was still like seen as even. More silly. Because now he was a year older and you know he was a good hitter but. That was all he was, and it's not like he was he wasn't hitting like peak Miguel, Cabrera or anything like that and so the Seattle deal was I think widely panned as Seattle falling forward and you know I think at the time Seattle is having trouble landing the superstar that they were trying to get like they had kept on being involved in trade talks and or free agency pursuits with players who wouldn't who wouldn't sign with them they they had the. To offer, but the players wouldn't sign with Seattle, so they had to settle for Nelson Cruz and no I don't think anybody really thought that was going GONNA go super well for Seattle and then they you know he he averages forty one homers a year for four years and then he hits free agency again and now he's thirty eight any signs a two year deal with the twins for twenty, six, million dollars, which is just like. Shockingly low when you think about. Even, what he had done the previous two years you thought that he was going to repeat those than it would be a tremendous bargain but you know, of course, he was thirty seven turning thirty eight really turning thirty nine, and so you didn't expect much and this was sort of the low point of defensively. Oh, I. Don't know maybe we're not at the low point but of Defensively Limited free agents sluggers getting paid on the market that was just not that much demand for that type, and so he signs a two year deal. Now, of course, he's turned it into a massive massive massive massive bargain for the twins. So as of now Nelson Cruz who is the same age as Adam. Dunn. And Adam Dunn retired five years ago it did you know that? Haven't done retired six years ago six years ago he has not played fifteen sixteen. Tony Eighteen thousand nine hundred. This is his sixth year of being retired. So Adam Dunn retired six years ago and really hasn't been good for a decade his last like really could year arguably two, thousand twelve but also maybe arguably two, thousand ten was a close to a decade ago Adam Dunn made more money in his career than Nelson Cruz has made yet. Now's still hasn't caught up to Adam done. So now he's going to be free agent again this year and I wonder what now what do you think? What happens what? What is the the market for forty year old really almost forty one year old Nelson. Cruz. So what's the market for him? Yeah I guess he would have made much more money if he had done the same thing, ten years earlier, fifteen years earlier, right? He he would have been paid for the offensive production and probably would have been deemed less for the other things that he doesn't do so I. I hadn't really thought of that. This is kind of the the wrong era probably for him to maximize his earnings. But I think probably at this point I mean he could get a a two year deal I think, right? That's what he's on. Now rated two years twenty six is what he signed for and at that age I, just I don't think anyone would go beyond that I don't know if even he would want to go beyond that. So probably to right like if he wanted to go year to year than. I think a lot of teams would be happy to do that and and he could cash in right I think a lot of teams would be in the Nelson Cruz market for one year. But for too which I think is probably the most he could realistically get unless you know we're talking about just some longer term deal where it's more of a fiction about bringing down the average annual value. I would guess that he'll get probably more than the current contract at it's hard to say just because the market is maybe so screwed up by the pandemic and who knows what will happen with any free agents really. But if we assume that it's not wildly out of whack the Buki Bet, steel was a To come. I would guess that he could get more than his current contract, which would be pretty incredible. If it happened because he'd be forty years old signing it instead of thirty. But I don't think he could eclipse that by lot because there's just going to be a limit just inherently when you're that age, it's so easy to imagine an injury or a quick drop off in performance. But the fact that not only has he not declined, but he just keeps improving makes me think that there are certainly teams that would be happy to sign up for a couple years Nelson Cruz plus there are twice as many teams with openings at the Jess. That's I was it was a setup that was set up. Yeah because I wondered I I'm going to transition quickly to that question. How much do you think that that will matter I? It's been a very i. mean it's kind of odd experiment this year where every team has a d. h. but only half the teams planned to have a d. h. the fact that they made this rule change basically after rosters had been frozen created this weird scenario where half the League didn't plan to field someone at this position and. Whether I I am unclear whether doubling the number of teams that have D. H. or that needed the H. doubles the number of buyers for the position I I don't know if that would have a real upward effect on salaries or whether the number of De Ages that are kind of like full-time de ages is constant is held constant by the supply of players who are good enough to take up a roster spot in that role fulltime. So like if you look at the D. Ages in the majors this year but see seven. Teams this if you if you look at players who who A.. D. H. is how many play dependence everybody is mad at the the seven players with the most playing time at D. H. R. All AL teams. So they were all you know more or less intense they were playing. These were planned the ages. So Nelson Cruz Miguel Cabrera formulas, JD Martinez Shohei, ohtani, or his lair, an Edwin encarnacion. So that's you got your seven and then you start getting into the NFL teams where you have, you know Marcel Zona has become close to a full-time d. h. and Jesse winker has become close to full time t h but but they weren't intended to be fulltime. Exactly full-time teachers, they still play from time to time, and then you start really getting into the players that are just part time or that are not really that where the team is is cycling players in and out and. The rest of the AL teams are kind of in that in that range. So after your seven after Encarnacion, you have a lot of teams that didn't go into the season with a fulltime d., H. or that plan to use that position to. Give players to cycle hitters in and out of the lineup two platoons to give players a day off to be a spot where a player who suffered a running injury early in the season could end up and so it's not as though there were already fifteen teams shopping for fifteen ages every year or that were planning to have fifteen d ages every year it could be that there are seven good d. h. ages in the world maybe slightly more maybe Marcello is a good agent and shouldn't really play field. Jesse winker seems like a good d. h. maybe shouldn't play the field. Maybe there are a few more than that but that it's not as though. The demand drives the number of D. H. D. ages that exist like like the League has kind of decided. Well, there are like seven to twelve good major league quality hitters who can't play a position in the world and We'll sign those players but then otherwise, we're happy to treat that roster spot as one for flexibility or it's always fluctuating or or at the very least the very least where we're not going to invest a lot where we're not gonNA go spend twelve percent of our payroll on a player there. Yeah. I mean I think this year and L. D. H. is have ninety, three WRC plus Al teaches have a one hundred WC plus of the clearly better hitters I. think wait say that again because I think I maybe had an opposite what do you say that again? L. D. H. is ninety three. She plus and Al L. D.. H. Is one hundred that's interesting. 'cause I did not find when I did this last night I found that there was like basically no difference between the leaks there was like two points of Oprah's between I. Don't know maybe we just had a big night. The difference. Now, I think doing something wrong but I think yet for this one off season, I think it it does help the market I. Think there are more teams in that market because as you said, they did plan for this. So I, think some teams. Are Happy to use the H. to cycle players through and other teams might have someone who's a good fit for that role already just sitting around but other teams don't and I think when you have a player like, Nelson. Cruz. Nelson Cruz would obviously make any and every lineup better now there's not that wouldn't want to have Nelson Cruz. Being equal, and so some teams won't have an opening for him. No matter how good he is. He's probably better than whoever their D. H. is because he's early mid he the best hitter in baseball this year so far. So no-one really could be better than that in the spot, but other teams just might have too much of a lock Jim, really to make them competitive bidders at least for crews but I think for an elite d. h. like him and maybe there are fewer players like that. Now I think there is more of a market than there would have been last year just because. Theory every team would want a hitter like him and there are certainly some NFL teams that have had very bad performances this year and who have otherwise been competitive teams and could easily look at the problem. It occurs to me that might be boosting Nelson Cruz a little bit is that he is one of the most often shifted right handed hitters and the evidence seems to be mounting that shifting on radius is just counterproductive either in most of the cases or across the board. So this year, what's the among? One hundred, thirty seven right handed hitters with the looks like the fifty balls and play or something I'm not sure what the minimum here is but he is twelfth he has been shifted on sixty four percent of the pitches seen and I'll. I'll just look by year to see how that has increased because I imagine that even in the the stat cast period, it has probably increased quite a bit and as I mentioned that the end of our last episode. Last week Russell, Carlton followed up on his research on the shift and he found that it helps with most lefties but hurts with most readies that is helps in hurts the defensive team and Tom Tango had a blog post just over the weekend where he looked at it and you know he adjusted for everything in accounted for the hitter in the better in the situation and all of that, and it's all waited and he did it in the optimal way that. You could study something like this, and he found that for left handed hitters and these are huge sample sizes. The batter had a three forty one weighted on base average with no shift and with the shift. The same better pitcher match up had a three seventeen weighted on base average. So twenty four point drop because of the shift with left handed hitters but for right handed hitters thirty eight point gain the the better pitchers if you have the same better pitcher. Combinations it's a thirty eight point gain for the right handed hitters. They get way better and tango concluded I thought maybe some right handed hitters deserve to be shifted that maybe though shifted over fifty percent of the time are candidates while those shifted less often are the ones bringing up the average no dice across the board regardless of how often a right handed hitter was shifted. They had a huge gain with shift. My point remains why are clubs shifting handed hitters? So it starting to see more and more like teams just fell in love with the shift so much and found that it worked with lefties and thought well, why don't we try this against right? He's and there was some evidence that seemed to suggest that it was for some ratings it would help but now it's really looking like, no, it does the opposite and look at that. So shift percentage against Nelson Cruz this is his percentage of pitches which he's been shifted sixty four point one percent this year last year twenty, three, point, seven percent. And that was the highest on record in the stat cast era. So the rate at which she is being shifted has gone up it's almost tripled citizen and meanwhile his Bab. Way. Up Compared his stats personally with without the shift. But if what's true for seemingly already as is true for him than it seems like teams are actually easy on him. I like to think that maybe he actually isn't defying the aging curve and he's not actually getting better. It's just that society is getting worse around in. Steadily just moving on being himself. Yes, and and the entire thing is really like a decline of flight baseball. Front offices. As told through Nelson Cruz, it's sort of like that and I think also I. One thing that's kind of interesting with him is that it seems like he has had also an enhancement in his reputation as a mentor and clubhouse presence like you hear all the time. Now, how good a guy he is and how much everyone loves him and he's a leader and I don't think I used to hear. That as much about him whether that was because he's become a better guy or just because he is a more famous player now I don't know or whether you know he's grown into that role I don't know what it is but I feel like I hear that more about him. Now than I used to and I think there's almost like a a nichols love catcher defense equivalent when it comes to clubhouse. Like I I think there's an inverse correlation between offensive abilities and perceived chemistry value, which might be real unlike the Nichols love of catcher defense which says that you know catchers defensive reputation is inversely proportional theory offensive abilities and there's no. Evidence that that's actually the case if a catcher gets better at hitting that doesn't mean that he got worse at defending but you just sort of assume or or many people have assumed that that's the case because often I guess when a catcher can't hit, it's the case that he's a defensive specialist. That's why he's on the roster at all and so if a catcher. Kim Hit then you assume that he probably can't catch but sometimes that's not the case with the clubhouse mentor thing. There's probably some truth to it usually because if you can't hit or if you're not valuable in some other ways that the numbers pick up then yeah probably you are adding some off the field unquantifiable value and we've talked about that with the Jason Giambi type. Their skills decline as they get older, but they hang on for years and years because they are a mentor suddenly and crews has kinda done both similar to David Ortiz I guess who was looked on as a beloved eater type even as he was still a great hitter crews has pulled off that transition to where he is now not only great integrate hitter, but also beloved and revered just as a person and an influence as well. Do. You think that he has improved is this is this mostly about him getting better or is it about him getting more opportunities or being healthy or being evaluated better like is this a Edgar Martinez type thing where he didn't get the opportunities that he should have gotten earlier and we shouldn't actually be talking about Nelson Cruz as this great old hitter we should be talking about him as just a great career long hitter and it took too long for him to establish himself because he wasn't giving the opportunities that he should have like. Is it a bond? Yes or or Edgar type career where he was denied opportunities that he should have had? Do you think he is just better now and that if forty year old, Nelson Cruz. Could go back and talk to you know twenty six year old Nelson Cruz that he could impart some lesson. Maybe that would actually make him better that he is just an improved player now. Forgive me if I'm not totally understanding the question, but I think understanding it I think he's Probably, a little bit of he could have been a majorly regular earlier than age twenty eight. Bot that no I think probably he got better I mean if you if you look at it, you know he wasn't good in you know you got five hundred plate appearances at age twenty five and twenty six and a hitters park and didn't succeed. He wasn't doing anything like a transcendent in the minors but more importantly is that when he arrived. With the Rangers he was he was really good at age twenty eight and he was a fantasy darling and everyone loved him in went. Wow. This guy came out of nowhere and then he he did keep getting better i. mean he's he was better at thirty three than he was at thirty one and then he was it twenty nine in twenty eight and so like it's not like he wasn't getting opportunities from twenty eight to. Thirty two, he was a regular with Texas and played every single day and then he still he's still got better when he went to Baltimore and then he got better when he went to Seattle and now he's better when he went to Minnesota. So we these are these are not like obscured statistics that have been hidden from us. It's twelve years where he's continued to show that improvement. Yeah. When he was twenty, five, twenty, six with. As mentioned four hundred seventy one plate appearances. He had seventy two opium plus that's in the majors but that was sporadic playing time. I've assumed that that was just a about not earning the job not injuries I don't really remember the specifics but in those so his age twenty, five, season two, thousand, six, he had a nine seven Oh ps in triple a., you know pm. Allies and not spectacular right and then two, thousand, seven, his age, twenty, six season while he was putting up a six seventy, one OPIE s with Rangers he was putting up an eleven twenty five. Oh, ps in you know one hundred, Eighty, seven plate appearances again in the also, if you put together his minor league work in those years, it's far far better than his major league work by probably what three four hundred points of of Oh ps. So that suggests that he was probably better than the major league stats that he was showing at the time and. So, whether that was just a small sample, bad luck or whether it had something to do with the sporadic playing time like maybe I don't remember if he was given the job on opening day in those years and lost it or whether he was just kind of fighting for it and was up and down throughout I'd have to look the game logs but if you could do that over and somehow give him two full seasons where he said it's your job and you have it all year long for both of those years I bet in in most repetitions. Of that scenario, he would do far better than he did but but you're right still he has gotten better even after that even after he established himself as a regular, he has continued to get better. So that's the Nelson Cruz episode we'll do another one in five or six years that will do it for today. Thanks as always listening, you can't support the podcast on patriotic help keep us going as long as Nelson Cruz by going to patriot dot com slash effectively wild the following five listeners have already signed up and pledge some small month to help keep. The podcast going and get themselves access to some perks engine e Van Winkle. Mona's Shaw Sean taggered Andrew Stockman and Steve. French. Thanks to all of you. You can turn our facebook group could facebook.com/group/podcastbeyond wild. You can rape review and subscribed to effectively wild on I tunes and spotify and other podcasts platforms. Please keep your questions and comments for me and SAM and meg coming via email at podcast dot com or be at the Patriots misting system. If you are a supporter, thinks, higgins has always for his editing assistance and we will be back with another episode sued. Them y'all. Chain. Tony. There's still mountains. To climb. End for. Same. Raiders My. With. A gentle. Never seen. Blades. Tonight. On this distant Joe. Will.

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Really Awful Movies: Ep 295  The Final Terror

The Really Awful Movies Podcast

45:56 min | 1 year ago

Really Awful Movies: Ep 295 The Final Terror

"Up of the news this evening is speculation concerning the real facts behind the Department of Health announcement about a radioactive spill. Supposed to have a cut yesterday at the state nuclear plant. You'll die only to live again in a younger body. Then you could tell me if the operation was a success brain. You're listening to the really awful movies. Podcast celebration of Genre Cinema. Hi My name is Chris and along with Jeff. We talk about movies. That aren't really awful. At all Horror Action Kung Fu musicals post apocalyptic women in prison films. Much much more. Tell Ya Wild Tragically. I touched and you're gonNA love it really. There is nothing to be afraid of disappear all night. It wasn't your friends aren't really missing. They're not really dead. This is just some kind of joke. But what's up? Whatever it is can't be just your imagination. Maybe just this once. You're dead wrong. The Legend is told in whispering and unholy tale of an unknown force alien into this world lady without knowing they have a wig a terrifying either alone and unprotected comes the naked horrid final terror from downtown Toronto Headquarters Shoes episode to ninety five the final terror which is not a nineteen fifties alien invasion movie. Despite what the cover art says nor what the tiles horror sounds like a fifty. Well that's why I keep forgetting to ask me just before we started. What's the title of this thing again? I couldn't for the life of me recall for the last week. And that's not to say to cast any aspersions on this movie. This is a pretty good flick but men that art does not really match. What's went into this Leona expectations? And I mean this also has other titles it goes by also known as Carnivore I. I don't know that really my favorite the forest primeval and I can get behind that of a highbrow child. Yeah sounds like a prog rock band that would open for JETRO tone. Seventy six thousand German Opening Act Forest Primeval Featuring Herman Mended Charles. Kissing the whole reference and the other one being campsite massacre which is very interesting. There's there's there is a mask or going on but it's a massacre master light. I would say yeah. You're echoing some of the complaints. I guess you could save among the Ahoy online who are lamenting the fact that there's not too high a body count but this is not really a typical slasher movie. No survival flake. I would say. Yeah how would you almost define whether it's a slasher versus a survivalist flick? Because they're very enterprising people in slasher films set in the woods and they if shown themselves to be very capable of defending themselves but a survival survivalist feature their way more active and in. Rebuffing the antagonists. I guess that's the key distinguishing feature. I mean while Camp Crystal Lake. They're basically a bunch of sitting ducks. And I guess it would go to the discussion of whether or not you consider deliverance to be a horror film. I do yes. But I mean it's a survivalist horror film. Par Excellence the greatest and it's funny because Canadiana deliverance as well as rituals. It's it's funny because there's some lazy comparisons to before mentioned the butcher Camp Crystal Lake and what just because people are in the woods and getting attacked by some force that does not make it Friday the thirteenth. And that's the continuing parallels. I've seen if anything this has more in common with Predator and I would throw in an excellent recommendation. We mutual friend of ours gave Southern Comfort. Well you do have the deridder go story around the campfire. Structurally I was going to say this is similar to madman. We essentially podcast at the same type of movie except this one is far better executed with many more twists and that was just well as the title suggests a Mad Mad. Men and this film also came out. Came was filming eighty-one during the spate of F F knockoffs F F came out and for thirteen out in nineteen eighty and. It was followed by Madman eighty-one. Don't want the woods alone in eighty one of just before dawn by Jeff Lieberman eighty-one this almost filming eighty one. Eighty three and the reason why it was shelved was probably because of the. I don't know just going to speculate well. Lack of coherence direction of how to market. While I was GONNA say that lesson commercial aspects of the fact that it wasn't really a bonafide slasher film but then you had a cast with a bunch of members who went on to greater things you had daryl. Hannah was very surprised. And this one and you had eight hundred thousand dollars amid so what was going to say Joel. Who plays the psychopath to paid? Henchmen of Tony. Soprano in Ralphie civil read news in Memento got a funny story by Pantoliano and I was I was at a convention and he was one of the features guests and I was walking around. I was acting inside for a smoke and he was walking right behind me. Just kind of you know Saudi around we go. I got to say something to this guy and I turned around and Alfred. My Hand for a shake and my mind went totally blank. Once I loved you they assume this and all I could think of was saying your delight in everything I've seen you in. The good is not enough people in my opinion or called a delight these days so like what's But he was great too and just A. I always picture them. This is awful. I always picture him. Beating a hooker to death outside the budding against this guardrail is an awful scene. I don't know why I'm laughing. But it was most of arresting affecting scenes and all of the Sopranos Awful even the other members of the crew. Were LIKE DUDE. Disguise a psycho. We gotta do something about him. But he he's showing some of his psychopath. Bona Fides here in early role. We had hair and everything. Well they were sort of. Entering mayor male pattern baldness territory. Since we're going through the Joe Pantoliano Daryl Hannah of skin traffic and of course. You Splash Popo. Great listeners should check out or fantastic skin traffic podcast with Mickey work. Of course you have mark metcalf from animal house on crazy summer. Probably best known for TWISTED SISTER'S WE'RE NOT GONNA take it video. Yes Patriarch now. You had recently ward. Who was in the thornbirds against all odds? I've seen and basically the only thing that's really memorable of eight from it is Phil Collins Theme Song God and the Film and then you have agents of Med work you say but entrance man. I mean the guy was in Greece two and he was a host for two seasons. The final two seasons from eighty five to eighty seven of dance fever taking over from Danny. -Tario will well visit that some deep dive. This is on a cracker Jack Restrict. What was dance fever? It was basically earth sat solid goal type though. Okay Pre thinking dance dance competition show and then finally. This film was directed by Andrew Davis who went on to greater things directing the fugitive with Harrison Ford. Couple of Seghal under siege above the law. My Name Miss Richard Kimble. That's all I remember from the fugitive and they didn't do it. I didn't do it. My best impression jumps out of the sewage pipe net. Good movie and some Seagal. Vehicles come by for under siege above loss so differently pedigree for these. Yeah under siege. I mean he's showed a great affinity for directing big bloated heavy. Oh no I'm not talking about the ship talking about nobody. Some people say he directs like an action movie director which I didn't really see I thought he had a great hand at this and as par for the course of this type of movie have a bunch of no names who just get get the wrong end of the stick in life and this was really really bad ass. He had a guy wipes out on his motorbike. His girlfriend goes to get help because he's injured she pulls this rather light bike off him. And it's ridiculous. Like what could have possibly happened to him on his moped but anyway she goes to get help. He meets his maker. And you get this. I think why people allude to Friday thirteen dollars an awesome. Kill the guy swings into the frame from a tree branch and Oh yeah that's associated with the impeccable timing of Jason Voorhees. Who knows when the next VIC is coming so he can send the other victims booby-trap as well that there was a tin. Can BOOBY TRAP? That like ranch is my God. What kind of Hobo talk about killer would a device that talk about hope of macgyver? That's yes they yeah. Yeah and then you think okay. This is just going to be one of those types of films. And then you're going to have a bunch of frolicking new byles who just descend on mass into this area. Which is Redwood California? I feel like I should sing some Neil young too because now hooked up with Daryl Hannah Right. Yup surprise me and he'd be American citizen to he did say this of course. We asked out as as proud Canadians. Have been to Hollywood of into Redwood. Search the ocean for gold or whatever. He's not an ostrich back Donald Michael J. Fox he's not a banning US quite just partially the way. Oh my God well. Why would you if you keep dual? But that's another discussion I I would love to have dual European citizenship. But on both my parents were announced their European citizenship was the law at the time so I could not just be handed euro citizenship. So there you go. Which is why we're both sitting here. Not Living in Berlin which would be Yeah you'd think that would be the thing that's going to happen but really what it is is not a bunch of new byles. There's a couple of girls that are along for the ride and a bunch of forest rangers. And they were this is. I was hoping you'd explain this to me what there is. There was so busy spleen this to me like why they actually went up into those. This was the first rangers. Were they trained to be fire people because they were. I think it's a subtle distinction. I mean they probably do both like all river firebase so. I figured that they feel like a plug here. If you're interested listeners. The epic how long action vehicle firestorm fairly entertained so ethically awful movie that everyone should check out if wacky action movies but yeah I would say it's fair to say their fourth rangers or forest firer agents of some sort. They're like smokey the bear a bunch of them. And and yeah. It's no there's no direct link made to the missing in the deceased as to why these that's what I initially thought when I was watching it and making dinner that okay. They're going to go and search party. And you're going to find what you're giving us your full Kris chicken parm. That's yeah really good. We do a pretty mean chicken part but then after a punt revisiting it I realized there is no link between them. They're just out in the wilderness on a camping trip by the seemingly and they're bunch of they might be trainees but I'm not even sure they're they seem to be well equipped both. Wardley literally and they're going out for some sort of training exercise. Although really is clear in the scope of the movie which I kind of like you asked yourself. What are they doing up there? And it really doesn't matter because it's usually again you may ask yourself what are you doing? What just reminded me a poor Taj Canoe trip that went on in high school and you. They sent us off in the school bus and there was this abandoned pretty much road like barely erode. The bus was going through thick brush and the branches were whipping against the glass at the school bus. And I was thinking good God like this deliverance right here going to and then they found some godawful riverbed we loaded our canoes and then that was it and bus left and really. I hope that things coming back. 'cause we might not be. This is just seven hours outside of Toronto but really in the Bush in that buffs that they went on driven by the Joe Pantoliano character. Whose Egger who is a nutcase and he's driving them into this area and he's a psychopath in their whooping it up. They're lively. They're enjoying themselves and he keeps making all these weird remarks and his friend died out there. Oh yeah when he finds out they're going there. He's going on them. This tirade in a recent of be there goes into this wonderful tired about wild animals logs. Any with the very prophetic someone. Who's going to get hurt? Well and that they do eventually. He's it's pretty neat because you don't know what to think because he could be an obvious red herring as to the person who's going to be causing harm to his mates but that's not necessarily the case but it's keeps you guessing as things begin to unfold and you have the Adrian's Emad character and this is pretty funny. He's a city guy and the others treat them like a like. Hey city boy. Of course sensed they do this variation on something. I I saw in the eighties. In on cheers it was just called Snipe hunting. Where they basically do. P- someone into thinking like he plays Marco Markle's yeah put them out in the woods to go on some sort of mission and it's not snipe hunting but it's close like they make him do a wolf call so that when they go every forty five second every forty five seconds because apparently there's marijuana on around being grown and the people who are violent criminals and if you should happen upon them. They don't want you to know that you're stealing their weeds. They get him to make these wolf calls. So it's a bit like Snipe pontic where you go to hunt snipe but snipe is not really a creature that exists and you have to coach down and look for it. So they're making him how and it's embarrassing. He says how long do I have to do this for? And they say well until we know. It's safe so he's howling like an idiot. Msa every sexy goes why not. Just do it if someone comes upon me goes because if someone comes upon you you're gonNA have time to do a seconds to make sure that we're safe. But sadly he goes missing and that sends things into turmoil so is it with the other members of the Party and the friction deriving which was a bit surprising. Actually because he is he was one of the more high profile members of the cast but at the time it was filmed he really wasn't much of anything. Pre Hooker Pre TJ hooker. I think he was. Yeah well I mean He. He's got this pre hooker. What is perfect it's weird. I've seen lots of TJ hooker. I can't remember a single thing about it. Well I have. It was heather. Thomas were heavily or heather. Locklear elements was on the fall. Guy Off it was on William Shatner trillion. Bussing the seams of that. He's going to form memories sweet memories but yeah this was a twist. Because you figure that guy's GonNa end up dead the Adrian's amid Markle Not Marco Polo despite. Everyone's calling out his name about one hundred times expected Polo best. Screw he is found and he's fine it just a day later and the and but another member of the party is missing. And that's when things start to ratchet up because one of the members of the party ends up deceased and they realize they have something on their hands so really what you have is a group of people out in the woods who Allah Predator have competency core competency in a way that the madman campers the burning campers anyone else's just don't go in the woods hikers the goofy sing along whatever they have no more competencies. Maybe they can tie a rope like a boy scout. I don't know but they have no. They're not men of action. So these guys are predominantly tough guys. And that's why I like him. This is a tough girls. Yeah yeah sort of Taciturn girls out say that I think Daryl Hannah maybe thirty words in the entire film but Yeah they're they're really active. And that's why like in this to the Keith. Carradine movie Southern Comfort which are Fred Lewis from suspect video recommended? And basically there you have national guardsmen. Who are I? Guess semi tough. I mean maybe not George Bush whatever its way to get out of actual combat. But these guys still are trained. And they're going through the swamp and they come upon his cage and legend of some beast and Keith. Carradine and powers boothe the guy from Runs a brothel in deadwood. He's in there and they have to fight this creature and it's really bad us. It's really underrated. It's another alternative to deliverance rituals. The Canadian film. And there's something about the irony of a bunch of guys arm to the tits getting picked off by a single Single combatant if you will if you want to call this symmetrical warfare one person they got picked off and then the rest of them looking for them and I am looking for him. Sorry and trying to survive which is pretty great because you figure if they can take you one at a time. You know you're being watched. And obviously Predator has that a chronic heat vision. Goggle thing that no one could possibly forget and it's really amazing who was originally cast as president is Predator. Ooh No JCP. Really Yeah I could see that. Yeah no I think they fire him because either one of two reasons one was either attitude problems or English or the fact that he was too small for the role. I think it was actually the ladder out who prompts on a lot of movies so Mrs Assuming. He was too small for the role. There are no small parts. Only small actionable actors. But yeah I thought this was really good because again. They're a they have this legend about this mad woman not mad men who goes bonkers after being sexually assaulted his story this regaled around the Campfire and she ends up in a nearby mental hospital. And the I can't recall she escapes or there's some sort of thing where she takes on comes visit her a hugs her out and then the both escape into the woods. Now Okay I recall yeah. `UNOS a pretty underwhelming mental hospital. They do drive by who is like a like A. I don't know what the Swiss Chalet once story effect. You expect mental hospitals to look like eighteen seventies Victorian castles right. Let's switch off my mind. Automatically goes to the Shitty Restaurant Canadian. Pretty GOOD THEY. They make a pretty mean rotisserie. Chicken if you ask me like what you're not gonNA switch. La It has its moment not even dipping sauce. There's nothing Swiss about it. There's nothing Swiss about and I don't understand where the chalet comes to do it because there's very little anything to do with the cantons of Switzerland. That conjures up any image at that place. But I digress. Yeah so you're you're told that there's a mad woman potentially lurking in the woods and at one point they come across the laptop cabin where there's a lot of pranks in this movie. That's another thing that kind of that's something another analog to slasher films are playing pranks when other we talked about nightmare become Longo. And there's a prankster in that one. And in this case it goes into the cabin to of the The characters and one of them comes across a wig in a nightgown and scares a show the other ones so they raise So there is some foreshadowing as to The killer on the loose. And then we said so this is a survivalist horror but it also shares elements with like Texas chainsaw massacre or maybe a cabin in the woods or maybe a wrong. Turn because you have this. The time honored shack in the woods and this survivalist nutcase who lives out there and has all these FIRPO healths and lives off the land. And you gotta wonder the through that in just interesting to be in the cabin. You see a lot of tin cans minus lids so yes. Yeah ties you right back. The opening scene that wonderful booby-trap and I think there's a severed wolff had so they really WanNa strongly implicate the woodsmen head in your dump. Sal make sure at seven well it could be stuffed and mounted taxidermy third but I guess so yes wolf and so they go to great pains to stake a claim to put a lot of investment. It's a two red herrings. Which would be the mad woodsmen potentially and the equally mad driver of the school bus which would be edgar the a Pantaleo character and this this guy gets drunk. He gets really belligerent. He's vicious he's nasty and takes off to. Yeah so I mean that's another one where you have all these who could it be who is a automatically speculate as does much audience or maybe not necessarily Who has invested a lot in protecting themselves from this egger character whose again he seems to be the most bad ass of them all but they all can handle there. They all got buck nuys. They'll look like pretty formidable foe. So my you agar is the Bartolotta jokes and they a lot of ridicule and so on so forth. We'll too cliche. I wouldn't call this an army movie but let's say a quasi I it's a it's a some kind of of authority force and there's always the hillbilly lunatic high strung and the same in southern comfort. Where you have a guy who's from the even deeper South Louisiana that they are in and he's talks like a real fucked hillbilly and he's a lunatic so that you can see that and platoon. You can see that in any army movie worth. Its salt so you have. This guy is usually small and wiry and has all these sayings like whatever step on a piece of corn and do this. And that. And I don't know what's in the daylight I'm not a folksy down-home guy every now and then a rooster. Whatever good pike and then again. They're getting picked off in different kind of fashion. I mean you have the killer whose sight unseen. But then you see. They're back in their clothes in this kind of woollen almost like a Shawl and very similar to madman and they have this wielding some kind of Like cudgel or some kind of hook knife a buck knife. I don't know what the terminology is but and as there are depleting their ranks. They have to get out of there. And there's lots of talk and lots of posturing lots of discussion as to what could be done. And this is what makes it more interesting because they have they band together to fight off a force and they do so wearing camel. They put you know brushing their hair. They tried actually actively high as opposed to screaming for their lives going skinny dipping in getting well amherst couple does get their just deserts. But it wasn't the focus it wasn't like a leering. Pov killer watching eighties Bush and like titties and then a guy in the everybody's separating Willie News. None of that game kickoff by one. They actually have much talk about whether they should go to that cabin and see if that wrong turn. Tm type cabin can be torched and they go kill this motherfucker. They go there and they're too late and they have to really extricate themselves from really deadly situation and they figure oh maybe we should get back to the school boss. One of them finds a dilapidated. Forest Ranger branded. Like blow up. What do you call it like a wrapped and the things still works is pretty much miracle as kind of a little bit of a debit for this movie. But good for them. They blow it up and then they find a river and that's when the deliverance comparisons could come because anytime you're sailing down the boat in the river or other. Was It huckleberry Finn or your fucking you know whatever parental Burt Reynolds. Yeah and so. But there's a great great scene and I don't know if this is possible segue into what we've learned but one of the vix has military style cap like safari cap pulled down over her head by this clawed creature and you don't know what to make of it is it's quite murky and she gets dropped on the raft as it's sailing downstream. That was really amazing. Because you're the POV is being on the raft and you have the branch swatting at at you. It's not as formidable river as the Georgia Mountain. Whitewater that the guys in the you know James dickey's deliverance. Had to deal with but man when you're being chased almost half expected like someone with a crossbow lurking in the in the up on the on the tree line. That was really bad US other. I gotta say that was amazing. Well there was no squeal like a pig in this one but at the same time I mean this time segue into way we learn. What did you learn that? Should I continue? Might as well because there's not much that I learned so maybe I'll take off some stuff you learn. Well it's weird because this is California but we've seen other movies set in the similar place that don't give nearly as much emphasis to the background to the nature as a being a character as this one does look you. Don't don't go in the woods. Which is silly now. Is such a threadbare production. It was there was no threat of being lost in the forest. This is really dark. I think part of it was filmed in Oregon and part of it in northern California so the dense read was a lot of on. I'M GONNA COMPLAIN. About that about how dark. This film is what a lot of that was. Just basically a result of the budgetary limitations in fact some of the night scenes were shot day for night so there was something I learned. Well that's interesting because I didn't get that. I didn't really really obvious but I didn't. I didn't pick up on any of that at all. And it was really just crackerjack director in this in this nascent form of his career he You know he showed you had the goods. Yeah I thought it was really particularly amazing in the girls who. I don't know how they came to hook up with these gents because there's a real class divide between them. They seem like maybe they're college students. The one back over British as well. They had upper cross. A company of accents knots. Like you would ever the brothers or whatever. They sounded pretty posh and they seem to not be. I mean with except one amorous couple. There were nothing there. No hijinks going on between. Yeah I quite a bit of a tag as it was explained away. Pretty THAT WILL. I think it was the market character agents and mad would say or any girls come on this trip and the mark metcalf character. We'll see I'm bringing a couple of long. So he he had a girlfriend improper friends of his. And that's speculation but yeah you will just be interesting because they're not all just a bunch of Poorly drawn out. Poorly annotated. Don't be collegiate type. So just go out and smash beer cans on their forehead and jump into the river naked like they have the they may not get the girls any girl smashed beer hanging out in the right neighborhoods but yeah just the typical collegiate. Nobody's these people may not have been well developed but it didn't really matter to the extent because their behavior is atypical for the genre. So you gotta give him credit for that. They are not much happens in the first hour after the first two kills. There's maybe someone goes. Missing things really ratchet up toward the end turns into yup well someday altogether different beasts and. That's I mean the thing is I don't WanNA spoil the ending. The ending is absolute cracker. Jack it was awesome. I loved it. I love the way things went down the revelation of the killer. I don't want to say too much little little bit. Shoehorn a little bit but Kudos for even trying that I mean no one could see that coming. Probably for a good reason. It doesn't make much sense to be perfectly honest but men. There are some really interesting set pieces toward the exactly and they were all ready for him or her and yeah. That was amazing. And it's fairly. It's not uncommon to have a bunch of people. Just get fed up and just lose all sense of propriety and just maybe booze it up toward the end of a movie and just go come on. Come and get me and just say. I'M GONNA die on this hill anyway. I'm going to get three sheets to the wind and fight off this unseen force but I cannot say that I've ever seen someone take mushrooms in a pivotal character as a means of defendant defending themselves against the antagonists like this. So maybe you can come up with one. That's more of a I would say. Let's trope from Vietnam film of anything so that and there are some similarities here. These guys might as well be fighting the Viet Cong who I think might be referenced at one point. So that's like yeah. I'm not sure about the set piece of the end is just I mean phenomenal. Yep so a slasher film not so much although there are as before there are some of the troops of slasher film but very few but definitely a really really good survive will do a survivalist film lost in the woods. It's somebody's coming to get us to band together. How you going to do this and Yeah no it was. It was a good good film. Yeah we said we're kind of disappointed but not in the way you'd think because of the marketing materials like to believe he began one thing. I ended up being something else especially as was par for the course of time when you have a poster feature. Who's not actually in the movie? Who's again this was common. And they're they're quite buxom. Just some Rando Brunette who is obviously far removed from any of these the rich awards or any anybody here so you're just left with this. Yeah the creature feature kind of vibe where it's almost like people fleeing from an alien spacecraft where you have this Shaped title flaunt for this movie. And you think they're looking up going. Okay what later martyr coming kind of. Yeah so you're wondering look like There's no final finality to about this. Really it's a mad man mad person in the woods film based on an urban legends. You could throw in like the crop. See the burning madman all this kind of thing but then it just takes a complete wrong turn right turn. I should say not wrong. Turn but and molds very well elements of survival ISM station as well. Yeah he definitely wouldn't release. It was an urban legend. Was a story that not many people knew like an urban legend. Something is widely circulated and in this case. It wasn't something that they anybody new April right. Yes they were basically told by the character which Kinda works and when they do get to the cabin is the the classic preparing free per PUPA. Laura there's always some glass jar containing some like formaldehyde. Gross thing and I don't know why every nasty cabin in the woods has that it's the kind of Ed. Geene moment gets me every time. I don't care it's just it's gross. That in wrong turn. Heels have is originally. Sales have is a remake so tired of it. There's something about it like you I mean. Can you imagine and you have Cobra which is kind of nasty. Oh why I completely forgot. In in Southeast Asia have procured some snake whiskey with a Baby Cobra. In until yeah. I do have a jar preserved whiskey so if anyone would ransack my apartment which actually bought one myself. I had to give it up at. You've had for so many years. It doesn't whisk anymore in the water is there. The alcohol is so murky is pretty gross. It looks like pond scum. Imagine like a twist on the cabin in the woods. What if you found one that was immaculately kept and it was some kind of belong to Martha Stewart or if it was some kind of a survivalist unabomber type? Who was really really keeping everything together. Well organized like the Mary Condo of killers uncertain in the in the Wilderness. You never know that. Would that would shock. That would be interesting. We've never seen before Warren off someone really tidy like an American psycho. Put that Kinda guy out in the woods and just giving them handing out ideas Willy Nilly here star rating. Give it again. Three and three quarters. I gave out to Song Hotel last week again. It wasn't what I expected but it it delivered delivered. I guess more than I expected. And I it. I'd like you said before. The ending was so awesome crackerjack and so cool that it elevated my star rating from three and a half to three and three quarters and usually you can only count on one character to propel things but all of them held their own really and was quite invested in. Adrian's Med as Marcos. Aronie was pretty funny. Us good reminded me of like one of the warriors gang members so he had that kind of look and the banter between the other characters. That was really quite good as well and sure they. They have a lot of fun with one another but ultimately they do what they should and they have the military training they skull through the woods. They set up a trap at the end. We don't WANNA do delve into it too much. But they really go out of their way to think about what they were doing like. Come to the point where they come to a clearing the road and they see vehicle and they consider whether they are being watched. And whether that's a trap and who in horror would ever do that like never you see the vehicle you holy. Shit were saved you run there. And then you get murdered so the that they were so reticent and so what's The word deliberate and so again diligent about what to do? They weren't just running to get murdered. These people were really resourceful and really sharp. Really Savvy and the women didn't just stand there and scream they were actively participating much zero hand it was rather than really said very little but you could see. I mean looks wise alone. What made her a splash late. At right I mean she. She's I mean at the time when most beautiful women probably around I mean come on this pre surgery where basically her? And Mickey Rourke look about the same as evidence. Scan traffic we've ever podcasts. And on the show made me so sad because you had to go from the wrestler and a career resurgence back to this straight to DVD straight to video pure wreck filmed on probably fifty K. He just as bloated possible just every blow. He took to the face in his brief Florida. Boxing Commission career Mickey just while in the wrestler visage by even that wasn't tested losy took to the face of surgery the constant plastic surgery. They got again and again and again which ultimately may resemble something akin to Rocky Denison Mass. And that's kind of insulting to rocky Dennis coach. Oh I learnt another thing but it's unrelated to this movie but I learned something about terrorist Rangers just for the hell of it. I throw it out there. There's a really fun series of been watching on Youtube. Darby days that talks about really intense raw rivalries between different clubs that are in the same city hate each other now. Berlin a city really like they have a crappy soccer team called union. Berlin always lose their garbage but their stadium is called study on the first of which means stadium in the beside the forest ranger hopes. And it's a stadium in the middle of a forest and you have fifteen feet to walk to the gate and the rest is dark forest and it's really cool. Innovative visit Berlin. Go sit in the in the stands and watch this team play because the big team is always wins. Were winds were frequently in this other team is like a also ran and I kinda feel sorry for them so that seems kind of fun so it's not a couple of years ago when I was there would have done the same. It'd be great. Well next time you go to Germany. I'm on board because I've yet to visit Ham Hamburg or Berlin and I was just reminded of Reeperbahn famous breath or light district sung about by all of the Leonard Cohen belief saying about it also where the bills cut their teeth A. Yeah so next time. You're in Germany. I'm there have been everywhere else but that CNN everywhere man everywhere. And I was thinking. Also the legend of the psychotic forest ranger which is an indie horror. Got Sent to me. I think wild I sent it to me four or five years ago. It's a forest ranger. Who goes around killing people near the Forest Ranger? It's kind of NEAT figure. They treat them pretty well. Here like their paramilitary. They have some authority but they're also a little bit a little bit Like little unhinged because people who spend a lot of time in the busch something about that that lends itself to certain type of individual serve exits cities and whatnot. Yeah because it's so you know isolating that it's who could really do that for a prolonged period is long lost. Registered is pretty. Well where you only you only maybe come in contact with bears and then the odd person hiking. It's not for everyone. I mean were to social to be possibly involved in that. I wouldn't do it for for a summer. I mean we had friends who would go tree planting in the summer to earn money for university. Where you go out in the Bush you you're basically left your own devices planting trees northern Ontario or B. C. You were a and that's my nightmare for me. A lot of force crispy haven't really given us your star rating so oh man what a tangent to. Yeah this is a man. I don't know if I if I were told. This is for survival this movie. Here's what you can expect here. The supernatural elements here the urban legend elements. I don't know I just. I went in expecting the opposite. And that's going to color my review because I mean I thought it was pretty dynamite. I regret almost giving madman highs. I did a rating because it's a different least. It's very funny gifts star. Ratings we give it to every movie on its own individual merits as opposed to comparing it to other films aesthetically. There's different enjoyment. Like if you enjoy a arby's whatever cheese melter but thing and then you enjoy like scallops this. Look on your face when you said no no scallops on a bed of parsnips. With some puree and a glass of wine puree all right. We'll have like a one type of enjoyment And then another type of enjoyment and one is elevated. I mean there's no arguing that there's a better crafted better. Directed better acted across the board better film and Madman of course of course but and yet they're both really enjoyable in their own way. This very dark this. I did not expect that. And it was very quiet and people behaved as you would expect them to. And so you don't have the kind of trappings of the genre. That you get the sure that women could have been brought to the forefront a little bit but maybe that would be in its disfavor. That's even a word because you would expect a final girl. But they all they band together with the surviving men and they work as a as a unit and work in Were in cahoots and works. Works really well works for me. I'M GONNA give it three and three quarters. I thought it was pretty bad. Ass and forget distributor is high profile. Samuel arse are are cough cough. Yeah I thought like men. More people should know about this movie it is way more obscure than even the burning. I would say the break has not obscure I would. I would argue at this point. And maybe not at this Morris circles. Everybody knows the burning outside the circles. Nobody knows what has no broader appeal in campfires. Genre would say but horror heads no the burning but this one. I don't know who knows it. You go to any horror fan and you mentioned the burning. They'll bill okay true for US fan. I guess but this one I mean. This is off the beaten path. No Pun intended. This is not a well known despite the crackerjack cast. I mean I never heard of this thing but all I can say is that our listeners. Locate Andrew Gallon with a version of of Europe a Europe Song. What about to take my breath away by Berlin? Isn't that Berlin? That is brimming go. Because every time I pass this on Amazon prime and other file terrorists I would think about the final countdown. And the SCI fi tinged poster art almost selling could be apropos. Oh my God did any doing Dutta the actually you know what we talked a lot about Europe in this podcast beyond Europe the country and now Europe the ban so yeah. I think we should wrap things up what it would be interesting to talk about Europe proper again and discuss maybe the hostile or something like that and I'm starting to get nostalgic for Europe here anyway. Continue it in to enjoy the PODCAST? We're digging up a lot of interesting slasher films that we didn't weren't really aware of until recently so we're GonNa be diving NAS slashers but what whatever you WANNA call them and we're going to do some touch of new and a touch of all. We're going to do some gothic stuff. 'cause we were bending that about as well misconduct. Gothic Ason surprises as well some action down the line to so continue to listen continued. Enjoy the show new episodes uploaded every Friday and small plug as well. Pick up a copy of the book because we don't have Patriot or any ads. Death Rela One hundred weirdest horror movie weapons available on Amazon. It's a really good read with a foreword by the incomparable Lloyd Kaufman. You'll really like it and we will talk to take care.

George Bush forest rangers Europe Toronto Predator Berlin Daryl Hannah mark metcalf Mickey Rourke Jeff Lieberman US rangers Joe Pantoliano Daryl Hannah Egger Keith Berlin director Department of Health Camp Crystal Lake Herman Mended Charles
12-1-2020 - Mo Egger & Paul Dehner Jr.Talk All Things Bengals and Reds

Mo Egger

42:48 min | Last month

12-1-2020 - Mo Egger & Paul Dehner Jr.Talk All Things Bengals and Reds

"This is paul. Dana junior and mo egger in studio talking. All things bengals and general. Nfl topics on espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. Hey what's up. My name's malaga you're listening to. Espn fifteen thirty. Thank you so much. I'm glad you're here. Glad halting or juniors here we have A lot of ground to cover a lot. And it's we're going to do a lot of bengals here in the first hour. We're not going to entirely bengals here in the first hour. Because i know that i have an hour's worth you can't do it. We have the college football playoff rankings. The latest college football playoff rankings. Come out tonight. Spend some time on that. In the four o'clock hour and the reds off season is set to begin even though it really started more than two months ago. We'll get to that coming up in the four o'clock hour as well. Plus xavier's win last night in overtime over e k. You in the beginning of the ucla basketball season as well. Lots of ground cover between now and six. But paul dana junior is here he is with the atlantic which you can subscribe to it. The athletic dot com. It's a good holiday gift and make sure you. Follow paul on twitter at paul diener junior. If you get paul athletic you can not only read his work covering the bengals but could also hear his podcast. Here that podcast growl in which is a must. Listen if you're a bengals fan. I texted you about a two and a half hours ago and said de mind. If we don't do the entire hour on the bengals yeah i. I'm sure that was met with a lot of enthusiasm so do some reds a little bit later on. Yeah that sounds good. I could use. I could use a change of pace you. You wrote a piece after the the bengals game on on sunday. That sort of thing spoke to to where i was then and where i am now sort of the meaninglessness of not just that game on sunday but the rest of the season. It was to go today. Man it's a month ago today. The bengals beat tennessee. Titans yeah and often here late in two thousand and twenty we've reference things that have happened before and we go got. It feels like that happened a lifetime ago. That literally feels like it happened in my mid twenty s. Not just the game. Not just the bengals beating the titans but what that kind of ignited right for the second half hope purpose you wrote about that whole purpose. Enthusiasm this to me. Was the part of the season that i was really looking forward to post by schedule. Softens up to get a chance to watch. Joe burrow whether or not he was capable early in the season or not. We all felt like by the second half of the year he's going to be. You're gonna be able to start to see massive improvement chemistry developing that paying off and this team and all of that paying off in winning. And instead i'm trying to talk myself into something about brandon allen or ryan finley. This is where it was supposed to be and a month ago. It was that just feels like it was even longer than a month ago. Yeah it's an it's just like the the fall the fall from where you were because you know they they did. They did what they wanted to do. They grabbed the attention of the fan base. And they did it by stinking bad enough last year. Thanks to last time. They went to miami but they they did grab the attention to the fan base. They did have people interested. They did have people tuning in. They did have excitement. About what the second half of the season could be as far as a true building block for the future and then to have to watch bengals giants on and understand when stead of that where we are at is just excruciating game. It was too bad teams trying to do bad things against each other. I mean when you had the light critical. Play the game and there's just a dude run free in the flat only to be called back by a holding penalty on the offense. That's the type of game this was an and it's just. It's it's tough to swallow because these games are still important for the coaching staff. And everybody involved but it just it feels so empty because of boroughs absence because they so much had everything understandably so around him yeah and just emotionally like the the end of last couple of years. Two thousand seventeen. It felt like a nice time to eulogize. Marvin lewis tenure now granted. He did come back the following season. But right like those last few weeks to me. Were supposed to be all about. Let's let's marvin lewis done. And so we'll spend some time talking about that in these games just serve as the backdrop to that. He obviously came back by the end of the two thousand eighteen season. It was pretty crystal clear. The team was gonna move in another direction. And so all right games were sort of the backdrop to that and then late last season the games were backdrop to you know. Joe burrow off season of hope of head. I was really looking forward to for the first time in a while watching the bengals play late in the season. Not thinking were going to be in the playoffs. Not not worrying about the math. Of how many games out of the last wildcard are they or anything like that but the games themselves mattering the games themselves being entertaining the games themselves having a purpose. And i think that's where most fans are right now. We're robbed of that again. That is so incredibly deflating in the more that happens i think the more difficult it is to muster up excitement over. What's next you. And i were talking in the aftermath last week of the joe burrow injury. And you were trying to be reassuring. There was a game effort by you. Hey come back chances. Are he's going to be okay. They were all facts. Yes no you were you. Were doing your best and i appreciate it but man. It's just the the more you do this. And the the more these seasons and with these huge stretches of games. That don't seem to matter at all. I think for a lotta people. The more difficult it is to to rally for. What's ahead for what's ahead in the offseason for the the mechanics of the draft and free agency and who they're going to bring back and even following joe burrow's progress this offseason. That's this isn't where we were supposed to be. And i know. I said that last week. It's probably not the last time i'm going to say but that's just that's what i'm stuck thinking about. Instead of why they lost the giants or how they can beat the dolphins it creates. I think the thing is it takes us back to creating that relationship between fan base and team and something. That's kind of been an issue around here but had disappeared for the last however long because of the arrival of borough spending in free agency in the hope of of really starting to see things come together because people did really like what they saw over. The course of the offseason had hope for what this season could be. That is now to eight and one and whatever it's going to up and so it brings. That baggage brings no matter what you do in the off season. It brings back that point of contention right like that that you know not that everyone's on board and everyone now sees. I never has reason to believe even if there is. There's there's still that whether that's whether it's keeping the coaching staff or whether it's not you know not believing in the ownership wherever that that stuff is that is most people's craw this time of year it will be that again rather than a feeling of sort of everybody on board. That exciting things are here. In in having belief in in the direction of the organization. So we watch brandon. Allen play on sunday. I'm going to subject myself to that this week. I guess it's better than than ryan finley can. Can we go back to the season. Why why not get a better backup quarterback or they that all in on ryan finley to the extent that adjust the it made no sense to bring somebody from the outside who you could put in a game and feel confident in and the answer to that is yes. How was all that on done by a quarter and a half against washington last week. Yeah that's really the question for me. I me that. I don't that does not connect for me. Is that if i will buy what you're selling. If you're telling me that look that we didn't really think we saw the best of ryan finley we think year development and having he can be a backup and feel comfortable to him to go in there and play better and win some games for the next year. And all of that. I i can i can. I can buy that now. He was robbed really a. He's a guy that was robbed of the pre -olutely. Yeah and and talk about borough at least to make all the calls in zooms right like you know. Finley's just sorta he's the ultimate dude in the with note to see his development sacrifice which is part of why everyone said. Getting a veteran quarterback this year would be a big deal right ryan preseason and so if you're if and i think that at that point to well let's get somebody who's familiar with the system. And they they went and they thought brian allen was basically that signing that people were looking for because they were full. Go with borough and and not really even thinking about anybody else needing to be ready to go in. But yeah. I mean because brandon. Allen is familiar with zack. taylor's precious system. He's a better choice than a guy. Like joe flacco just for the sake of terrible just for the sake of an exam. How's it going. How's it going for him when he's playing for the jets. He's on a bad team. If i said to you you can have one of these two guys to come and win a game for you and also perhaps give some guidance to a rookie quarterback you have brannon joe flacco. I don't really care to have either of them another. He's about him for reason. Look you're not getting russell wilson. Okay right right. You're not gonna trade. Aaron rodgers to be your backup quarterback but if the idea this season was to win games right why they spent all this money win more games this season and you had the distinct possibility that maybe joe burrow's not ready week one and you're always a play away from the backup quarterback playing to me would want person who's a person who's best positioned to help you win. Football games ryan is not that guy. Why do i know that with the coaching staff said so last week that guy i think joe flacco is but there's a litany of dudes out there that they could have had. That would have been better options that you could put it in feel like right. That guy can win a game for us all feel that way about these guys know they were not. They did not prioritize deposition. They did not prioritize the back of quarterback they did not decide that it was worth spending money on and decided to use that elsewhere whether it was another three to four million dollar piece. Whatever it was that you there signing sufi low. I dunno whatever and so they forgot that guy played for the men. He's about to be back right he's too. I mean half pretty important injury. That happened early in the year. And so you talk about way or they didn't prioritize it. Came back to bite them right and and you know i. There's one thing. I will agree with that. Zac taylor said yesterday and that was. He didn't get a lot of help. No and i'm not saying that he was great but could you. Could you get a couple guys not holding when they actually complete a pass. So it'd be nice. Maybe maybe like some of your receivers that are paid a bunch of money to actually make a couple of tough catches for you you know. Help help brandon allen out a bit but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean that that this wasn't still a miscalculation and you have to be. That can't be an excuse. It's part of the job to be prepared for that scenario and the fact that you know so to use it as a backup quarterback is. It's it's tough well. You create this scenarios you this situation this university of players for yourself to say to go win games if any number of things happen. That's at quarterback and that's offensive line and that's at any other injuries that have happened at corner or wherever else. Seventeen minutes after three o'clock. He's paul danger. Junior on twitter at paul diener. Junior is covering the bengals along with jay morrison for the athletic go the athletic dot com. And you can read their work and get to the subscribe. Get the app as well if you're a subscriber new you're gonna thank me for that. It's eighteen minutes after three o'clock paula's here for the hour. We're gonna do some reds offseason stuff a little bit later on but let's perhaps get to the only really significant question the most bengals hat mills bengals fans have next. I'll talk better next segment. Eighteen after three. This is espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. Just in here with paul dana. Junior talking about the fact that on sunday. If you're among the few thousand. Paul brown stadium. Giants kicked a field goal to go up thirteen to ten and it took the scoreboard operator. Pbs good like ten to fifteen minutes to give the giants credit for those points. I like the effort. I appreciate it. Man look in two thousand twenty making up around facts anyway. Why should the scoreboard operator be any different. That make a difference. In the game you've worked in scoreboard operation. Not i have pbs. no yet. Great american you. What is the biggest scoreboard four. Paul that i did. I did one. This is actually. This story is know. You've probably heard it. I've told her that much times. But back when homer bailey through his second no hitter one at the previous year. He had done it. I think it was a previous dungeons and pittsburgh and so in that off season you know. They're they put new things that we put into play wherever and are now are awesome organised. John schutte put together. It was like a you know. Remix on california love. It was like cincinnati love and it had famous calls in the background of it and he would play it. It was kind of a fun thing to do. So i at that day i was working the dj kind of just playing the music and stuff so you go through and you plot out before the game. We'll do this here this here this here. Well at the mid eight hours like are will do. We'll do the cincinnati love. They're that's a fun one into good night so we'll do it. It's all part of ahead of time. Well homer bailey's throwing a no hitter. And what does the one thing that you can't do when you are throwing a no-hitter talk about it mention it even think of even look at the guy. Yeah what about play or call from his. Last no hitter over the scoreboard speakers pumped it out to the ball. Literally this quote homer. Bailey has just thrown header in the middle of the song. And because it's part of the backtrack that was laid out in the in the offseason. It's just part of the track of the song and we just didn't even think about that. And like i just froze and looked at john. Healey me we both just hers. Well just play. I guess keep playing and then after he thankfully he completes no hitter would have been some responsibility. I'm sure i think it was mentioned. A few times in the dusty was in the post game press coverage like. I don't know up there. The scoreboard there yelling about the no hitter. Oh god they got he got that she got is probably the biggest faux pas that i have been personally part of my favorite adapt ballpark. Were you in the scoreboard. Room in two thousand. Eleven and outfielder fred lewis. Yeah and for his first at-bat as a pinch hitter. Whatever it was is name was spelt furred already so all season i called them for. Yes i bet that was. That was fun for me. And i'm glad you enjoyed it probably just. Did you ever go like ten minutes though. Not giving team a run i now. That's that's automatic. I believe the actual score system. I've seen a lot of basketball games where there's so many points that you know somebody. Maybe it was a three but we only gave the guy to like. It could be tough. Football seemed to me to be pretty easy. Yeah to be able to make sure the scores accurate. Yes and for about ten to fifteen minutes on sunday. It wasn't an when i pointed it out. Just continuing my awesome relationship. Cincinnati as responded so favorably to that are when. I talked before the season to to feel good about this coaching staff. Let's just hit the vegas over. Which would be six five and a half and we're going to feel pretty good. There's not going to be any conversation about moving on from zac taylor that sort of stuff. That's not happening now. They're not getting to six wins. I feel comfortable in saying so all right we have to readjust if they lose out. There's eleven and a half point underdogs against miami this week. The dallas cowboys are bag. Maybe they could beat them brandon allen. Versus andy dalton. Guess i think. Andy's better i don't see them beating pittsburgh. I know the up. The texans are on the string of like as many players as possible being suspended for. But they still i think are going to have to shawn watson and i don't think they're going to win that one and the week seventeen game. You know who knows what the ravens are going to be playing for where they're all going to be healthy but it is. It's it's hard for me. It's hard for me to look at the games individually and say we're gonna win any of these now. I know when you look at it. As a whole maybe they stumble into a win. Somewhere is a two or three win. Finish even with the injuries go beyond just jober. There's a number of turks defense. Joe mixon's not here is going to launch into a conversation where we are realistically entertaining the possibility of zach. Not coming back. yeah i mean. I think it's a realistic conversation. I think it's one that you have to have a. I don't think anybody wanted that. And i don't and i don't mean that. In a way that everybody wants their coach to succeed i think they viewed this as a three year minimum thing and the organization does i mean that's what they want it to be. They want him for the next ten years and they wanna give him every opportunity to be the guy for the next ten years. It was the last thing that they would want. But the bottom line is when when when the record is what it is it becomes. It becomes the conversation. It's it's there's just no way to hide it because you worry about the ability to sell it and so you have to sell some sort of change in so whether you're talking about a fall guy elsewhere or whatever but yeah i mean i inevitably. I don't think that it happens. I mean inevitably. I think just because of a lot of the circumstances that you mentioned you know i sort of in my this week and bengals this week really outline teams that have had to make this decision that have had first time head coaches with losing records to the first two years in what came next and there are examples of it coming together afterwards and then there are met patricia. And a lot of those where you bring them back and it doesn't but i just think they'll want to see it out. There's enough reason to believe a little. This guy they they like what he was doing with. Borough this quarterback guy to get the quarterback and have them all were together. Sick it out there so i think but i also think that just it really puts them back in the corner here and having to legitimately discuss it and we don't know what happens when they start legitimately discussing that and and it's a tough one because you you just it goes we. We've said this. I mean how many times there's just no proof of concept yet and ended a certain point you've got to win some games no matter what is your hand and there's not a lot of evidence of being able to win games no matter what your hand is in no matter. How much arguing about. How bad that is you know. This isn't poker. You can win games and so it's tough. It's a tough spot. Inevitably i think the bengals fabric and dna as an ownership group will win out over almost anything. But this is certainly putting the. There's blowing out zac taylor. And then there's keeping zac taylor and everything else status quo and a lot of stuff in the middle of all that a lot of steps in between so is it. Is it realistic to think okay. Zach could be back but his choice of offensive line coach. Zac sorry we're gonna bring in somebody else. Is it all right. Little luana romo. You've had a couple of years. Maybe we found out why you weren't a defensive coordinator newer available in late february to begin with and they they make a change there. Is it our executive head coach. But somebody's gonna call place. Somebody's you just. You got enough on your plate right now. Could you see any of those steps or others. That i didn't mention coming to fruition at the end of the season the the fine the fine big name defensive coordinator thing is the easy answer here. I mean i think it is. And i i. Don't you know. I think they'll make arguments for jim. Turner and you know. And i think zack is sort of interconnected with him and you you'll hear talk about the progress. They were making a line and all that stuff that will be part of that conversation. The defense one. There's some really there's some there's just two years of it right and and not a lot of progress in some inexcusable stuff namely the end of games. Indie cleveland back to back really were brutal. Blows for for trying to do this year and at and there's a lot of disenchantment on that side of the ball that we've seen whether was stars whether with younger guys just across the board. Let me tell you when the when the moment came for me. Ellie late first-half call timeout. You collect gregoire junior run down. The right sideline cute. I just at that moment. I'm like okay this isn't it and here's the thing. It's the one thing that really they weren't able to do that. Where the lateness of the higher and the situation and be honest zach being inexperienced with not a ton of connections in the league came back to bite them. You can do. You can write that wrong. There are plenty of big name. People that you can bring in and you can you know pay them realize we really need to be to find the same way. They went into free agency like they hadn't before by basically buying it out. You can do that with a defensive coordinator that is the hot name or whatever that is somebody with some skins on the wall you and that's the for so i mean it's just for so many of these teams you know. That's such a huge key. Whether you're talking about san francisco. I mean people love kyle shanahan finding myself talking about him a lot lately because of the situation they were going after their first two seasons and they stuck with him and then they put put it all together. They also had quarterback injuries and got a high pick that helped because of it also their defensive coordinator turn into a head. Coaching candidate and star. And it's some point. That's got to be the thing and i've got two years on my hands of the defense quarter here not being star and clearly not being at least the answer that anybody's looking for any any ability so so i think what you can start fresh there and you can sell that and you can sell a big name. That would come in your defensive coordinator. And i think feel like change occurred and we. We're still buying into what you're doing on offense with borough. We're still we saw that and we were. We were believing in that. And i think there is reason to believe in that but the other side there needs to be some sort of change. So you use there's big names and then there's a big name that might be a good fit or make sense. Does one of those. Somebody lied to the top of the mind that fits those criteria. I don't know. I mean. I think you have to have folks will default patricia. Because he just out. People will default fangio in denver when he gets whacked by something like that happen. I mean yeah if you had if you had somebody who is literally a heck of now. Patricia can go elsewhere. But i i think there yet. There are names like that phillips's on twitter begging to be back in the nfl phillips. Why not why not in la was mcveigh's guy. He was there in zach. Was there with them. They ask familiarity their head coach. Yes i mean. I been a head coach. He's he's shown he'll do his defensive thing and go all these guys all he has a track record of putting out good defenses. Why not you know. Here's what exactly i mean. That's what i'm saying. I mean i think that's the direction. I think you should go. I don't know if they will. I mean there's you could find some. You know there could be a young guy who's gonna take over his first job. I just feel like they really need somebody. Who's who's done this before and has trusted that the players can look to and say we could. He's done this. There's reason to believe in that. I just think they need that. If that was the direction they were to go where i would take that oversee like like pleasant guy mentioned who i think was talked to in a room. Okay through who is a secondary guy it with the rams who's a really hot name right now to be a defensive coordinator but i think you need a real name and so if that's what the direction at were to go you know i think you could. I think you could sell that. Could feel like real change and it could feel like a fresh start in a lot of ways. I thought it without having to go completely draft. I just have one one person. I begged them to not even entertain. Okay because the jets are going to blow things up. Don't hire that nutball. Greg williams anybody just not that guy right anybody but that did every year. There are guys that have done that. You know that. Have been head coaches. Even that are available. Yeah you don't want you. Don't want new england tires of ballot check because it's just hey above. I'm sure he'd love to come to cincinnati up. Your sleeps work under zac taylor. That'd be that'd be fun. Twenty three away. You want to talk some reds baseball please. Twenty three away. From four o'clock. We'll do that next. Paul deandre junior athletic here till four until six on. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sport station. It will be food versus fears. Sat or to win bengals roar into my and look at the hangup bickford law so the dolphins can the orange and black costume in the blowhole. Would you get the cold front. Dan awarded dave lapham coverage. Begins sunday morning at nine. Espn fifteen thirty over bengals. Sports update is service of kelsey chevrolet home of lifetime power transportation and guaranteed credit approval from their families. Yours for life. Kelsey shove dot com. Uk basketball tonight. The wildcats play in kansas and the champions classic pregame starts at eight o'clock if you're looking for louisville and western kentucky. That game is going to be on fox. Sports thirteen sixty starting at six. Pm dame takes on eastern illinois tonight and indiana was just dumped by texas sixty six to forty four. the second installment of this year's college football playoff rankings are revealed tonight and ohio state has returned to practice. Hopefully getting set for saturday's scheduled game against michigan state. But if they play that game ryan day who Was going to miss last saturday. If they played illinois is still not going to be able to coach the buckeyes. And also just desmond her name to the davey. O'brien quarterback class of two thousand twenty one of thirty five quarterbacks name to the davey o'brien quarterback class of two thousand and twenty. This was announced by appropriately. So the davey o'brien foundation. Paul deandre junior. Excuse me with. The athletic is here until Four o'clock i don't have any other bengals dive dolphins game on sunday. I i really don't breakdown excited about one thing. There's kevin clarke from the ringer. So i i really liked kevin and and no one was more excited for the dolphins bengals game last year. Then kevin's podcasts. After that game was fantastic piece about tanking and if it's possible tank and it was sort of looking at the dolphins but it turned into the bengals in dolphins in this tank game and him. And i discussing it before. During after last year's game was one of my favorite conversation because we both were just in astonishment of that game how it went in and then and the ramifications of it in the big picture and everything else and it was so so excited gonna come on the podcast on the growler on thursday. We're going to talk about the process of rebuilding through two different totally different ways of doing it. Yeah they'll like rabbit verse the turtle right. It's like well. Let's just do it all at once. Everybody out those. I want to be here. Start over give me all your picks in exchange for it as opposed to the like see what we got kinda believe not gonna trade anybody just move forward but who who will be truly good sooner miami good now but are they set for the long haul. The bengals were the ones that lost that game and got the of borough will see what happens to but it's kind of an interesting concept excited to talk to him about reliving last year and the the process the way these two teams have done their rebuilt but the nuts and bolts of the game. Itself uninteresting to you. Oh this fierce yes. That's fact uninteresting to me yeah. It's uninteresting you know what is interesting. Is this baseball offseason. And you obviously. In addition to your role covering the bengals you host reds podcast. See rosecrans avenue. Aarp in cincinnati and you'll do some contribute to reds coverage throughout the course of a season. It's funny because it feels like the reds off season is going to begin anytime now now. Tomorrow's the deadline to decide whether you're a non tender arbitration eligible players. and so. i think we're going to get some news about guys that maybe they don't bring back but it kind of feels like if in fact i've heard people say well when the off season begins in it's like they haven't played a baseball game. In over two months now the offseason has been underway. there's been nothing to preclude them from making trades and signing guys doing doing whatever to make their team better or better position themselves in two thousand and twenty one and yet because of the uncertainties surrounding how many games they're gonna play this year. How much money. They're going to be able to make any playoff teams. There's going to be if we're going to have a d. age. And then just the sort of built in financial uncertainty in that sport. It everybody standing still everybody's sort of waiting patiently which always then do is just speculation and wonder trevor. Bauer is not going to come here and come back in two thousand twenty one. But they're actively looking for a shortstop. Trevor stories name has been mentioned as a possible trade target. That's going to cost a lot of the athletic. Ken rosenthal reported the reds are willing to listen offers for for sonny gray. I certainly can understand why you would listen this. This is what. I struggle with that specifically. Is you get to the playoffs on the strength of starting staff that is arguably the best you've ever had four former all-stars wade miley didn't do anything. Sonny gray is ace on most teams if you trade him away you're gonna get a lot of return. You ain't gonna get a guy like sunny. Greg fills that spot in the rotation. You're also about to say goodbye to two trevor bauer. I think it's going to be a tough sell as as logical as it might be if you do trade sunny and get a lot in return and perhaps figure out a way to flip what you get for a shortstop to come to your fans and go. Hey we're going to be better. Even though two fifths of our biggest strength now gone the best pitcher in baseball arguably in two thousand twenty and a guy who's a bona fide staff as both both gone. But we're going to be better in two thousand twenty one. I i have a heart. Why is there. There's always this need to take things that teams do great and undo them they. I feel like that happens to offer. You're like okay. Well now that this is a great great asset. Let's let's let's let's focus on the weakness. Keep the strength know. Keep the strength and buy into the fact. That look statistically the lineup that you did put out last year should be better than it was right out at least we were certainly sold that where we not. Yeah and so if you believe that and if you believe what you were selling last year that that lineup over the course of one sixty to play or whatever and should be a real line up at what you can there whatever that means. I don't know where they're gonna stand financially. As far as willingness to go into free agency versus trade. But you know just hold onto your strength as much as you can and find other ways adding believe in what you're selling the money you spent last year on cassiano moose dacas and those in shogo in those will pay off for you and i think at some point. You have to bet on that if you're going to be hampered by budget like if you're gonna deal with budget but you what you have to take bets and you've got a bet on something and you've got to bet on what you spent on last year will pay off for you and we'll come around this year. Yeah i don't. I don't disagree. I was going to talk about this in the next hour. There's there's a part of me though that goes you know in terms of big money for pitchers in this. This applies more to the pipe dream that they would be able to keep trevor bauer. They're throwing a lot of dough in the pitching development in ways that are different new In the game itself sort of. I don't wanna say out liar ish but you know the whole drive line kyle bodey movement. They're all in on that and that's done come cheap at some point. You wanna see significant return on that investment. And if you're spending all this money on you know new and different ways of developing starting pitching that's revolutionary and is going to completely overhaul How you teach and how you train and you guys through your system and then keep them healthy at the big league level. If i go. I'm writing big checks to develop starting pitching and develop pitchers top to bottom this way. I shouldn't need to write big checks to go get guys from the outside very lazy sort of clumsy way of putting it but for your clinging to the idea that just going to throw a bunch of money it starting pitching i would go will actually followed the money. They've been spending which is in development. And that means not as much being reliant on guys from the outside right the one thing i want to say is i really liked the nickname spin cincinnati when i saw that that's my in depth analysis every like every like really big time group that leads a team to a championship. Needs a good nickname like that. With the nasty boys were sure spins natty. Cincinnati judgments and natty. If that's it's sort of goes in with your drive line You're you're exactly right. If it is about develop is that you can take cleveland's done this you can take. We develop pitchers right. That's even they just keep doing and they sell them off for assets because they can just keep developing their i on them and if you you gotta have a belief that that's what you can do i might want to see a little more proof that they can definitely do. That agreed before. I go selling off sunny gray. Which is one of the best organisational decisions that they have made in the last however many years acquiring him and signing desk. That's being the whole entire sunny day project is is is great and derrick. Johnson is great. I just i just. I want to see that happen a little bit more before you go getting rid of the prime example of why you believe in it. And so i i understand the desire to see the offense better and to make a splash and all of that but i just sacrificing number one core strength. Especially when you're already doing bauer out i do. I do have a problem with that. Develop developed some guys you know for me. I am probably more than anybody else. i'm. I'm fascinated by the the relationship that the reds have with their fan base and how people consume them and how much they trust them and i i think over the way things turned out late last season. I think that's taken a little bit of a hit. So we talked about the the difficulty in selling fan base on. Hey we just let. Trevor bauer getaway. And now we're going to trade sunny right at the same time. Everybody rolled their eyes last season whenever you had mentioned look this team's offense they're just unlucky right it's batting average on balls in play and the longer this goes at some point there's going to be regression to the mean these guys are going to score more runs balls are being hit hard right now. They're being hit right at people and over the long haul that's gonna change and so in two thousand and twenty one. Offense is going to be better. Just because they're going to be luckier. That's also going to be a really hard sell. It may be true. That may be the case. My guess is it will be. My guess is offensively. You will see guys on this team have better two thousand and twenty one numbers then two thousand and twenty because there are some guys with track records who were statistically not as good as they had been and luck had a lot to do with that but as somebody who's just always kind of interested in hell. People buy things zac taylor. Can you really sell zac taylor on people your number three. I don't think again can really sell folks. You can't sell them on hayward leading to the great rotation get away. Okay fine but you also think you're going to have a hard time. Selling folks on offense is going to be better just because we're going to be luckier. But you i mean there's certain point it doesn't matter what folks are willing to buy. It's what will best produce wins. And if i think if you think that that is true that the luck turning around on offense is what will best produce winston do it because people will care. People will people just want you to win and whether whether they're buying it or not i don't know i i tend to think that if you if you buy that in yourself and you really think that then good then run with that then own that thought and go win games with its whether whether people are buying it or not because people just care about winning and finding ways to win. I think you know you can't. You can't bend over backwards to please. Every wish and desire of the fan base all the time you know you're right except what they did in two thousand nineteen was a reaction to a bottoming out of season tickets and saw ticket last year. They badly want to sell some this season. How many they're going to be able to. How many games are going to have. They badly want to this year and so to a degree that does drive at least on some level their decision so was winning yes. That's what drives but winning winning. Means i watched them win. Then i go back. They've very much would like for you to go before they start winning. And i mean that's that's reality and that's what they wanted to years ago. People will go to games people especially extra program we allowed in the ability to finally go back to baseball games. People are gonna go. And i just think i just think you gotta you gotta have ownership over over your thought in this market. Two years ago they had their lowest attendance and thirty four years. Just so they're just going to rush back in a bad economy if they win if they i mean. They started winning this past year barely. Look you could see it. You see it for two weeks. You could you could. It was enough to to make them exciting. They had a cy young winner. They had a pitching staff that was really the whole pitching development thing to believe in deir johnson everything else they had spent money in the off season on guys that should be able to hit granted. It ended the way it did and i understand. That was two weeks it was also sixty games. So but i'm saying i there was. They were they looked and felt more real even in losing games at times last year then they had it all there so much more to buy in them last year. Then there was anything since two thousand thirteen fourteen. Whatever it so. I do think that there is a seat of that. I don't think that. I don't know i don't have the pulse of the fan base as much as you do but i do think that there is a there is a planet seed of that you know there. Things are moving in the right direction and believes that this team can and will win. Yeah i don't know. I just i. Maybe i'm jaded by the reaction to the postseason which let's face it that the folks who chimed in allowed us to the ones who we're going to be the most unreasonable i just i i first of all i'm i'm not entirely sure that the moment fans can rush back. You're going to have people like you. And i just want to go back to a baseball game. You're going to have those folks. But i think the folks who will come back when they win they will come back when they actually see winning. And i think you're going to have a hard time selling somebody in the offseason. Hey here's our plan. Here's what we're it kinda worked last year we hope. We're luckier offensively or going to cut some payroll. Because that's just the reality but by the way can you go buy a bunch season tickets. I mean i just. They'll have some shiny new pieces that they can. That will be part of this parents. Playing music say they will. I hope i yes. I i don't disagree with that. But that's gonna come at the expense of something and i have a feeling that we're going to be people who focus more on what it comes at the expense of than what they get and that's not the right way to do it. I'm sure it's not people who will do that. They'll spend just for the sake of spending is saying parents play music so we have to go see next week audio. Sawday energy covers the bengals and sometimes the reds athletic. The athletic dot com. Make sure you follow him on twitter at paul diner junior. Terry nelson's gonna join us Four thirty uc's opener is set for tomorrow against a lipschitz. We'll dive into bearcat basketball in just over thirty minutes on. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sport station.

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October 24, 2018: Hour 2

Here & Now

42:07 min | 2 years ago

October 24, 2018: Hour 2

"From NPR and WB are I'm Jeremy Hobson. I'm Robin young in Tallahassee, Florida today. It's here. Now this is a trip we'd planned as part of our election year road trip. Of course, we plan mother nature laughs, and we'll be covering post hurricane Michael as well. But the midterms are now just thirteen days away and President Trump is holding a rally in Wisconsin tonight. And I guess you'd call what we're seeing today, an October surprise of sorts. The news about numerous suspicious packages sent today, including one sent to former presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and to CNN in New York to federal law enforcement officials. Tell NPR the packages are similar in nature. Let's bring in our political strategists today. We've got Bill, press democrat and host of the radio program. The Bill press show. Hi Bill. Hey, good to see Jeremy and Robin. Yes. You too. And Alice Stewart is with us as well, Republican strategists. Hi Alice. Hi, Jeremy, mobbing. Great to be here. So we are less than two weeks from the mid terms. And considering that Bill, let me start with you. What are these suspicious packages. I mean, if anything. Well, I would hope that have nothing to do with the mid terms at all. I mean, this is very scary, very dangerous and regretful all the way around and they will happen in the New York area. It's the ones you mentioned. Former President Clinton, former President Obama CNN there are Time Warner and George Soros also out on Long Island, I believe, you know, certainly an act of terror, but I think since maybe tells us two things one, there's some really crazy wacky people out there, dangerous people and two. I think that we have our political differences, but we all have to be careful about our political rhetoric. And I think when you a dentist by member of the opposite party is evil or as the mob or accused him buddy of paying for terrorists to come through Mexico to the United States, you know, words have consequences. Need to give you an opportunity there because if you're of course, Bill referring to President Trump and we didn't. Didn't go pal. Do you think the rhetoric has been ratcheted up the, you know, especially the talk about the caravan which is very far away from the US border and happens quite frequently. These groups of people organized by, you know, left-leaning churches trying to help people get refugee status. Very few of them ever make it across the border, your thoughts on that on the language we've been hearing, Robin week can all agree that the rhetoric began to be heightened well before the caravan and it it's, it has got to stop and just started in the presidential campaign the the name calling and the the disparaging comments on both sides, but but it has to stop and all. Do you think quivalent. What is the quivalent the you say, both sides? Do you think the president is is using words like mob, you know, do you think there's an equivalent city? The look the there needs to be a more civil tone in the way we talk people on the left or angry and frustrated, and speaking out and people on the right or angry and frustrated, and they are speaking out and look at the end of the day. Everyone needs to take a take stock and how we disagree how we express our feelings. And I have said all along this, this needs to be toned down because someone could get hurt here. And this is a time for us to take take a step back and call for civility. I think vice president Pence was right to certainly condemn the attacks, the the devices sent to the Obamas and Clinton's and CNN, and now they're potentially others. But these are cowardly acts and their despicable, and they should not be tolerated. And that goes for for those on the right and the left. But certainly this is just uncalled for and especially and this is more than just a political statement. I believe this is a threat on the freedom of the press and trying to silence the courageous men and women who work in the press. I think they're trying to send a bigger statement that they need to be silent. Well, let me ask you a question Alice about something that we heard this week from President Trump. He has been based. Weekly, promising a new middle class tax cut that he says is going to be put in next week before the election. Congress is not in session that's not going to happen. We actually reached out to the White House to ask them to provide a somebody who could tell us more details about this new middle class tax cut, and they were not able to give somebody to do that. What what is the strategy there to to make that kind of promise when we all know that's not gonna happen. Jimmy soon, as I heard about the ten percent tax reduction, I knew there was one hundred percent chance that was not going to happen with the mid terms and look. This was something the president has done repeatedly. He will say something that appeals to his base and that they want to hear. And while this, this is a good idea portion of this is to extend the existing tax cuts. And another aspect of this proposal is to put a more greater emphasis on the middle class that needs to happen. I talked to congressman since this came about and they support the idea, but for to to. Enfer. This could happen before the mid term is is more than a stretch, but he was certainly saying that to to rally up as base and let them know this is something that he wants to work on at some point. What do you think about that Bill? Well, you know the Washington Post this week that the campaign two thousand eighteen on Donald Trump from Donald Trump's part is based on fear and falsehoods. I think this is the classic falsehood missus not going to happen Congress's not in session. You can't put a tax cut through by through resolution, and it's sort of like I'm from Washington trust me. There's no way that he can say congress is going to come back and pass this tax reform. I think it's just a cheap political gimmick that everybody sees through Saturday. Bill, I want to bring you in on something else because we mentioned briefly the the caravan, and some are wondering why we're not hearing from more Democrats explaining what it is and you know, nobody wants to see thousands of people come across the border. You know undocumented, we just haven't heard them heard much from them and what we're hearing here in Florida. I we, we are not hearing these kinds of ads up in the New England area, but here's one that is playing constantly. You know, on CNN on, you know, different cable stations. It's part of an ad from the Republican future Forty-five pack. Let's listen. The far left moving to socialism, undefended open borders, immediate tax increases. One hundred percent government run health care. The booming economy stopped the. On this deal are running against the Democratic Party. I mean, they end up in these ads saying, do not vote for the Democratic Party. It will bring all of these things. You know, stand with Donald Trump in many cases, they're just the whole party. No, absolutely. Well, I think in response to your question, Robert, I believe first of all, I've been a little disappointed to that. I have not heard democrat stand up and say, this is bunk. I mean, these people are seeking a better life and very few of them are going to make it through the border if they make it to the border and we haven't. We haven't heard that. I think I, I'm not speaking for democratic leaders, but I think the reasoning is that Donald Trump is clearly trying to make this the issue in the campaign. He said, the campaign is all about the caravan and Cavanaugh and common sense. And I think they see that as a trap. They don't wanna walk into it because he is trying to make them look like they are open borders and they're trying to keep the focus on the. Economy and on health care, particularly and on what Mitch McConnell talked about last week that if you leads put the Republican leave, the Republicans in power, they'll go after Medicaid and Medicare and social security. Think that's where Democrats would they rather focus on that, and they don't want to be dragged into the caravan fight that added if I can that adv with those key points to Democrats for tax hikes, open borders, socialized medicine that is a common issue or common message that has driven against many Democrats specifically in the Senate races. And there's not a lot of pushback because that is there's a lot of truth to that in terms of where the Democrats stand, but let me just say this one quick thing on the on the caravan that this administration disagree on that, right? That's why. Raise taxes to pay for education. For instance, we've been hearing that today, but go ahead, go ahead just on the caravan that the administration has mentioned this, and I think it's valid point. Democrats policies of catch and release and the loopholes with regard to those policies are an incentive for people to come into this country. Granted, a lot of people in the caravan are seeking asylum. They are fleeing a danger in their home country, but many of them come to this country because they know once they step one toe in America, they the, the chances of them being sent back home. If there's request is not granted, it's minimal, and that is a lar- in large part due to the democrat catch and release policies at once. They're here, they're here. If I may just step up with the fact is Donald Trump has been talking about the border. If you look at the and by the administration's own numbers, more people have been coming into the border despite Donald Trump's talk than than we're. A year ago and I want to put the caravan moved introspective just this is calmed down everybody. This is the second caravan this year. The one in April fifteen hundred people made it to the American border two hundred and fifty applied for asylum of whom three three people were given a silent. This is not an assault on our country. The other thing here in America is worried pointing out that if they were to walk the whole time and not sleep, it would still them more than a month to get to the. They're not going to be here. We have just a few seconds left and I want to ask each of you for literally five seconds, ooh, prediction Bill, press for the midterms. At this point, a couple of weeks. I would say the house was going to take back. The Democrats are gonna take back the house. They will take back maybe v ten fifteen governorships out of thirty six and I believe Republicans will hold the Senate barely you filibuster but Alice go ahead. Republicans will pick up some seats in the Senate. I think it will be close. There's the chance Democrats will win in the house. Stewart, Republican strategist and Bill press democratic. Host of the program, the Bill press show. Thanks to both the view. Thank you. In Tallahassee, Florida a state. That's one of only four states that bars felons from voting after their sentences are completed right now. Former felons have to wait at least five years and petition a state board to win back their rights. But on November six voters will decide whether to amend their state constitution and automats grant the right to vote to more than one million people convicted of a felony. If it passes amendment, four would restore voting rights to former felons upon completion of their sentence and less. They were convicted of murder or a sex crime here. Now's, Chris. Bentley took a closer look. It's opening day at the living harvest, a thrift shop and south talahassee. The store is managed and staffed by former felons, making the transition back into society. Dale wait, is the nonprofits founder. He was sentenced to six and a half years in prison for felony DUI and was released in the year, two thousand since then he's gotten sober and started this nonprofit to help others turn their lives around. But finding housing and employment. I'm a big big person about second chances because I know people change and I know the way I was if those people had those opportunities, they wouldn't be going back to prison, and our community would be better for white is already cast a ballot in favor of amendment for something that as a former felon himself, he can only do because he's successfully petitioned the state to restore voting rights. He says it helped him feel like a part of society. Again, when I was able to finally return home and try to rebuild my life, part of that wanting to be a part of the community could happen unless I was. Able to vote in twenty eleven governor, Rick, Scott rolled back reforms put in place by his predecessor, Charlie Crist, making it harder for nonviolent felons to gain their rights back. His administration has also granted fewer felons clemency. Scott has approved restoring voting rights to just over three thousand people compared with more than one hundred and fifty thousand under Krist. That means today more than one point. Five million people in Florida more than ten percent of the adult population can't vote because of a past felony conviction. Eddie Kane is one of them. He's been out of prison since two thousand three Cain remembers how it felt to go with his family to the polls on election day unable to cast a ballot, a said in the car. I didn't even go into building felt deprived. I felt ashamed. I feel ignorant. There was a real bad feeling, and I think that I, I haven't even forgiving myself for feeling like that. Cain says he wants to get his rights back, but the process is intimidating and he knows it could take years. All of us deserve a chance to show that we can live decently. We can live amongst other people. So I've made a commitment not to go back to prison, but I also wanna make commitment to be a productive member of society. Richard Harrison, Tampa area lawyer says not all felons deserve that chance. We should not assume that all one point five million felons and everybody's sitting in Florida state prison system have suddenly become good, wonderful model citizens. Harrison, the founder of Floridians for a sensible voting rights policy, a group that is against amendment for he says, there are a fair criticisms of the current process for restoring voting rights, but giving what he calls black. Clemency with a constitutional amendment would be wrong and potentially dangerous clemency is not an entitlement. It is not a right. It is an act of mercy by the state of Florida, and it ought to be decided on an individual case by case basis with due consideration for the seriousness of the crime, the nature of any harm that was caused and a whole lot of other factors that we think reasonable people would think would be important. But some law enforcement officials, say the current system is making Florida less safe, Leon county sheriff. Walt McNeil agrees with Harrison that it's appropriate to take away some rights from violent criminals as relates to other things like, you know, sexual batters who keeping them away from kids and wave from schools and, and those kind of thing. I believe those appropriate steps to take, but just the fundamental right to vote, there's no proof that taking a right to vote away deters. Them from any other crime whatsoever. McNeil points to research from the states own parole commission that showed ex-felons whose right to vote was automatically restored under governor Crist we're less likely to commit new crimes. He says, taking away someone's right to vote, only serves to diminish their sense of being a citizen when people feel like they're hopeless in shut out of the basic fundamental rights citizen, then they're more apt than my opinion to give up and turn to a life of crime because there's no alternative left to them. That's something James Sawyer says. He's experienced personally. Sorry, went to prison for buying crack cocaine from an undercover police officer while on probation. He says, when he got out not having the right to vote, made him feel powerless. I used to have deals about who I wanted an office to next and things, but I never got involved because I said, what can't make a difference? So really it made me feel less than a citizen. It kind of made me feel like, well, if I'm not a citizen wag one. So. Recently got his rights restored, and while he's proud to have the right to vote, he says, he's not sure if he'll use that right. He hasn't made up his mind about whether or not to vote in November is kind of like a victory for me, and it's kind of like a book of this is part of a bucket list. I'm not Depp political either, and I'm not sure we'll not didn't. I just make, but not. Like I say, I'm not sure. Several recent polls have shown public support for amendment for above the sixty percent threshold. It would need to pass, but if it fails voting rights, advocates have another strategy. A group of former felons is suing the state in a case currently before a federal appeals court supporters are hoping they won't have to fight that legal battle much longer if they win at the ballot box in November. For here. Now I'm Chris Bentley in Tallahassee. Well, another legal battle here when all the way to flip Florida's supreme court in a decision about who has the right to appoint three news cream court justices to replace three retiring justices who helped make the decision about their seats governor Rick Scott said he should replace the justices before his term ends, but the supreme court ruled that is the incoming governors responsibility. So either the democrat, Andrew gillum or the Republican, Ron to Santa's will shape the future court, hearing that decision. The head of Florida state Republican party said the stakes for November's election just got higher. Let's bring in w FSU's news director, Lynn, Hatter, Highland, even person. Explain this decision, you know what was behind the thinking, well, it it comes down to a matter of timing. The governor is usually sworn in by noon on that day. And you know the justices also retire at the same day, but technically they get to hang out a little bit longer till about five or midnight. So really by the time they're terms are up. It's already a new governor is an office, and that's part of some of the the consideration that did go into this. There's also some previous cases in unrelated issues that also tend to lend themselves to sort of an incoming person being able to make certain appointments. So all of that came in to basically say, governor, Rick Scott. You don't have this appointment power. It's now in the hands of the incoming governor. I, it's very different, but I can hear president or former President Barack Obama saying Rick Scott. I sympathize with you. He, of course, wanted to do his supreme court Justice, but staying in the state of the three justices who are retiring Barbara Perry and Fred Lewis picky Quinn's all part of a say, a liberal block of responsible for many of this courts, four, three decisions. It's a four, three court. How important is it's critical? This is the same for three court that has overturned the legislature on issues like abortion issues, like provisions on voting restrictions on voting. That the Republican led legislature has wanted to do in the past that they couldn't this same court throughout congressional redistricting maps. So this court has often throated the legislature when they've wanted to put in policies and the legislature has responded by calling. You know, the supreme court activist judges. That's been a term that's been floated around. So a lot of their four, three decisions have really come down on some of these hot button social issues. And that's been a big sticking point in a point of contention between Republican leaders and this particular supreme court. So the makeup of this court matters because these are issues that aren't going away. The Florida legislature under Republican leadership is likely to continue pushing these things as they have in the past. Well, this is also become a big part of your gubernatorial race. Here. We've been talking about it today, Ron to Santa spokesperson warned and he's the Republican warned that the democrat, Andrew gillum would bow to pressure by out of state radical groups and to pick these activists. Judges that you just refer to. How else is it factoring into that campaign? Well, it certainly playing a role in the conversation, but I don't think it's sort of resin to a level where most people are actively thinking about, you know who whoever gets the governorship will make these point. You know, you're right because we've been asking people on the street. You know, he's got this big decision. You know, you've got this big what they they, a lot of people don't know about it. A lot of people don't know about it and it's been flying under the radar for years. You know, this has been a conversation and a question that has gone back really for decades. We had the first attempt to do this in two thousand fourteen through a constitutional amendment that would have given the power to basically governor Scott in that failed. So this is not the first time, but I think once you get to these sorts of questions, voters are just like, I don't really know. They're not necessarily thinking that the balance of the Florida Supreme Court will rest in sort of the hands of the two men running for governor. Okay. Well, we'll see. So this this debate tonight we're going to be hearing. A Gillerman Santa's again, perhaps this will come up there. But meantime, while we have you win and your expertise, what are Florida voters really caring about. I think Florida voters are carrying about a couple of things. They're thinking about the environment. They're thinking about the economy. They're thinking about their taxes. They're really thinking about hyper local issues, and that's really sort of been some of the focus of this campaign. In fact, you've seen to Santa sort of struggling to pivot, really to kind of talk about those local issues, but Florida voters, they're not thinking about the Florida Supreme Court. They're thinking directly about the issues that are impacting them the most I gotta tell you we have been to the panhandle. It is stunning with this region is going through, and I can't imagine that people are voting when they can't, even they have no place to live in so many pockets. So we just wish everybody the best here that's w FSU news director, Lynn Hatter, talking about how Florida Supreme Court judges are kind of in the balance in the election coming up Lynn. Thanks as always. Thanks for having me. This message comes from NPR's sponsor. Indeed. When it comes to hiring, you don't have time to waste. You need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast with indeed post a job in minutes set up screener questions, then zero in on qualified candidates. And when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsored jobs. New users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com. Slash NPR podcast, terms conditions and quality standards apply. We're following the news about a number of suspicious packages intercepted by law enforcement around the country address to former President. Barack Obama former presidential candidate. Hillary Clinton packages were also sent to the CNN headquarters in New York City to US Representative. Debbie, Wasserman Schultz's office in Florida and New York governor. Andrew Cuomo says his office in Manhattan received a device that's being handled NPR correspondent quil, Lawrence joins us from New York. Hi quill high, and the New York City police department held a press conference about the package sent to CNN's headquarters and to the Clintons home in Chappaqua New York. What more did we learn? There was a little news I that in that package containing a device which they described as a pipe bomb type device. At the CNN headquarters, the packaging also contained a white powder and they don't know what that is. Yet. There have been a recent a letter sent with white powder to the White House and the Pentagon which turned out not. To be deadly, but they are certainly a matter of concern. So they have still, they had still closed down the mail room at that building at the time you try and analyze that powder also, as you mentioned, governor Andrew Cuomo announced mid press conference that he had received a device to his office which was being handled. And I should add that NPR's just confirmed that former attorney general Eric Holder as also received a device which was intercepted. Okay. So so we're talking about Cuomo a democrat holder also democrat Debbie. Wasserman Schultz, also a democrat, and obviously Hillary Clinton and from a President, Obama is law enforcement in New York saying anything about whether the risk goes on whether anybody else's at risk here. I mean, they were trying not to point out what I think the most people are drawing a conclusion that the targets are are either progressive voices like billionaire philanthropist. George Soros who received a an explosive device at his home earlier this week and all the others. You just mentioned. But yeah, that that seems to be the conclusion. People are drawn connecting the dots increase in law enforcement and security around the city. Now, yes, they're announcing that there would be you would probably see more police on the corners, it's cetera. But mostly they were stressing that New York City has been through a lot of things like this, tell you it's twenty five years since the nineteen ninety three World Trade Center bombing now. So they said New York has seen worse and and that people should go about their daily lives. There's no specific information about any additional threats. Let's listen to a little clip from the press conference in New York. This is mayor Bill de Blasio. What's there. Let's say this to all public officials of all partisan affiliations. Don't encourage violence, don't encourage hatred, Donen courage attacks on media. You can disagree, but you have to show respect for people and air your disagreements peacefully these attacks or attempted attacks, I should say are coming just before the midterm elections. As we mentioned, several of these packages were addressed to Democrats or progressive voices. Can we make any guesses at this point about the source. Really the so far. Most of them have been the focus in the past of right wing conspiracy talk online on the radio. Debbie. Wasserman Schultz was, of course featured in the Wiki leaks trove of emails that was released a it, which embarrassed the Democratic Party before the last presidential election. And so that that's what may the conclusion. Many people are drawing, but but not not police, not authorities. They're saying that they're just going to wait and see. And I should say that already some of these right wing conspiracy theorist peddlers online or starting to say that this could be a, this could be a ploy by the Democrats to distract before they keep watching quilt Lawrence, thank you. A new house being framed outside Tallahassee a common occurrence here, but a recent survey by the associated general contractors of America showed that eight out of ten building firms in the US can't find labor and in Florida. It's even worse. And that was before hurricane, Michael flattening entire towns. This week, we headed out to a building site to meet up with members of the Tallahassee builder's association. Lynn Edwards is executive officer. Doug Barton is the current president marquess lower the incoming president. We started with Doug. So when it comes to work is just give me the thumbnail of the problem that you're seeing in getting workers here. Two thousand seven recession. We lost fifty percent of our industry and they have not returned. They went and found other work. So as things have picked back up, we're still working with half our workforce. A lot of people left the industry and then Mark, you're left with people who might have aged out of the industry retired. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, our average aged framing contractor is fifty seven years old. So can you give me the kinds of jobs you are missing right now? Every trade is who are missing from drywall hours to plumbers, two office staff in the construction industry. If you talk to any company, they are looking for help and they can't find it, what's the? What are some of the side effects? What happens as a result of not having enough workers from a general contractors perspective, the homes that used to take us three to four months to build. Now they're taking six eight months and I'm sure that your bids have to be higher than they do. They have to. We have to recover that cost, but you still you don't cover the full cost. Materials have gone up the last three years, probably thirty percent. Are you worried about materials going up even more? What with the Tara tariffs in hurricanes? Absolutely. Lanos send us emails several times a day of those looking from at Panama City to all these places needing their homes to be rebuilt or repaired. And I'm thinking to myself, we, we struggled day-today to keep up with what we have had prior to the storm. I mean, physically, I mean, housing new house just struggling with balancing act balancing. How do you possibly take not enough workers and take on more so than I want to bring you into the conversation? What are you hearing from people who have been hurt by Michael? The lack of finding anyone to help them the lack of equipment, lack of roofers and a lot of unlicensed activity. What else, though workers that there are, I'm sure you have to really compete to keep them maybe raise salaries Mark, maybe increased benefits if there's not enough palm. In town or not enough electricity in town to do the amount of work. Then when they bid the jobs, they raised their price because they know there's no one else to come in to take the work or if Mark has his painter coming. And I know he's coming to Mark's job and I look at him and I said, listen here, you know how about a few extra hundred bucks to come by and see me. I you patting Mark in the bag is you're saying that tell us me small community. There is some of that trading that does go around. That's the trade is one thing, but you're talking about stealing you competing. But we are competing. You talked about what happened because of the recession, a huge blow, but then you have this, you know, slow, steady blow that has to do with immigration. I mean, we're reading that some of the cuts in both legal and illegal immigration are your Notting Marcus are impacting the building industry. They are. If you look at a lot of the trades, they are immigrants, I believe the hurricane, Michael, the damage done over there. If we did not have. Workers from other countries that were just would not get done. So what do you do? What we're doing through education and bringing younger kids and introducing them in the construction for decades, we taught them, it's gotta be college. It's gotta be college. It's got to be college and you know there's a vast majority of aid don't make it through college or they're not college is not for them, and we're trying to bring them together and say, hey, listen to construction industry. We we need you and it's lucrative. Now I was talking to one of my contractors on the way over here, and these guys are making twenty five thirty dollars an hour. You talking fifty or sixty thousand dollars a year to repair an air conditioner, and that's climbing. So at some point there's going to be hired to me, you're right, we, I mean, we've pushed college and for many people the college isn't the right thing. Sounds like you need welders and you said plumbers and they need training. Absolutely. Yeah. And most of these curriculums are not, you know, they're not four year curriculums so they can go through future builders of America which is high school program transition into vocational school. So by the time they come out with some sort of experience in high school and they can be an apprentice and work their way through vocational in a matter of eighteen months or so and be in the field making fifty thousand dollars a year versus four year degree, and they come out. I read average, you know, graduates making forty nine thousand dollars a year, so they're not going to have the college debt that these guys have. So I it's, you know, it's lucrative. I want to touch on some of the other aspects of this, but but not to leave immigration. Just yet. If you had the ear of the next governor is you couldn't have a more red hot button divisive political issue right now than immigration. And it's you're telling me it's necessary for your industry. So what, what would you wanna see, immigrant workers are important to our industry for sure. They are very hard workers. Oftentimes the immigrants are the on the job before anybody else. They're working hard. They're staying till sundown. So they have a work ethic that we don't seem to have in the. United States with our young kids now. So I would ask whoever's coming in, we need to have a way for these folks to come in and do the work that our industry and other industries need. Mark, are you saying you'd like to see more of the workers who might be fit for your industry allowed in? I suppose that's what I'm saying. Yeah, as I've traveled again, after this hurricane we just had there's a lot of crews, tree crews, roofing crews. And one thing I notice in common of all of them is it's primarily Hispanic workers. This area needs to be rebuilt. Absolutely. We need more workers there. I think those builders in that area are in a really bad place because their homes are gone. Their place of business might be gone. The shop that had is gone. It's gonna take a lot of builders from a large part of the country. That's just the way it is. What else would change this equation? We see a move recently for vo-tech or industrial arts coming back to the high schools. We've spent many years, not exposing young people to that. Type work and telling them what Doug mentioned earlier go to college, go to college. The guys right here standing here doing this work for us today are making between forty and sixty grand a year. That's a good job. So Doug, should there be some sort of government involvement kind of making it more enticing? What? How else to get their river? But to you know, capitalism. I think you know the fifty sixty thousand dollars and that's, you know, you get into supervisory roles in your, you know sixty to eighty thousand dollars. You know, owner, owners of companies double triple that one more thing. I think stigma. That's what the big talk was. Last thirty years. You gotta have a college degree and Canada downplayed the actual getting out of your hands on and and doing work. And I think changing that view is the big Harley. You gotta get over. You guys worry. Florida's future is maybe so uncertain because of the warming sees and the storms that are increasingly violent. Do you worry of about twenty thirty years down the road that Florida will not have a building, boom. No, I don't. I think the Doug and I and other builders build very good homes, the new code. Quite the contrary. I believe other states should follow our suit and build strong homes in Panama City. And in Mexico beach, the structures that survived were not that much different than what we're building right here in Tallahassee. They're just good quality but jump back to your question. No, if it's global warming, I'm not sure what you're referring to with our state and what do I say it sees warming and and you know, this has been going on this weekend. We went down to care about it and got to explore the shipwrecks from eighteen ninety nine revealed because of the storm. But from eighteen ninety nine, there's category, you know, what are they didn't write them back then. But the damage was very similar to this wiped out the city of care Bill. So no, I, it's the recent report from the gun. That you know, we got even less time than we thought, maybe ten years instead of twenty. Absolutely not no public cyclical and you're a builder? Absolutely or twenty five years. I, I do believe we do affect the environment with what we do in what we build an area full of asphalt is hotter than an area full of grass and trees. There's no no doubt about that, but I also believe it's cyclical more than that. I think that we can make the right decisions and build the right way and build strong homes and it doesn't matter what's coming. Let's check Dan. And meantime resumes. I mean, you want people to know we're pushing these young guys to come up through the ranks and go through their future build of America program and get into the construction industry. Stuck Barton, marquess, ler lynyrd words all of the Tallahassee builders association. Retired supreme court Justice, Sandra Day O'Connor announced yesterday that she has been diagnosed with the early stages of dementia and likely has Alzheimer's. Disease. Alzheimer's is a progressive form of dementia. It gets worse over time. Almost six million Americans are living with Alzheimer's, but there's been a lot of research into causes and treatment. Let's bring in Dr. Paul Newhouse the director of the center for cognitive medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center. Welcome. Thank you for having me and the former Justice, Sandra Day O'Connor is eighty eight years old. What kind of treatment options are out there for her for people like her that may be different from a few years ago. Well, we have medications that can help the symptoms of Alzheimer's disease and improve or stabilize memory and function. We also have medicines that can assist with some of the secondary symptoms that we occasionally see in this disease such as anxiety and agitate. But we don't have any medications that are on the market at this time to slow the progress of the onus is a diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease different now than it was a few years ago in terms of what's available to people, I think so we've made tremendous progress in our ability to make a diagnosis of this disease because we can now actually see the abnormal proteins in the brain with some of the advanced neuro imaging techniques that have been developed over the last twenty five years. And so at this point we can act. Actually make a definitive diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease. In many patients has any progress been made in the search for a cure. We've made a lot of progress. At this point. We have some very promising therapies that attempt to remove or prevent the accumulation of some of the abnormal proteins that seem to be associated with this disease. Some of those medications have not worked as well as we'd hoped. But I think that we are on the cusp of developing some very new on highly effective therapies. There's also some new research out there about what may prevent people from getting Alzheimer's. What is the latest research tell us about that? Well, that's a very exciting area of development. Now, we are testing numerous approaches. So one of the most exciting is to use some of the same type of compounds that have been proposed for. Treatment, but to give the much earlier in the disease. And so if we can prevent the accumulation of these abnormal proteins than the hope is that we can either stave off the onus or even stop it in its tracks. The other approach that a lot of us are very interested in is Ken, we use lifestyle approaches to modify the risk of developing Alzheimer's disease. Can we use things like physical exercise, dietary approaches, and other kinds of activities that we think will lower the risk of developing this disease and what are the answers to those questions? Well, there's still being worked on, unfortunately. So we have a lot of data. The correlates, you know, someone exercising with a reduced risk of Alzheimer's, but we haven't proven it yet in a go forward way. We haven't shown that if you start an exercise. Program that you yourself will have reduced risk. But I think that there's accumulating evidence that a lot of these lifestyle factors and biological interventions may really pay dividends. Now, Sandra Day O'Connor said yesterday that she has been feeling the early stages of dementia and likely has Alzheimer's disease. What is the difference at this point? Well, dementia is a broader syndrome of which there are many causes and Alzheimer's disease is the most common cause of dementia, but it's not the only one. If you were a family member of Sandra Day O'Connor right now, would you think that you yourself would be at higher risk of getting dementia or getting Alzheimer's disease because she has it? Well, MS O'Connor is eighty eight as you pointed out earlier. And so we would characterize her as having what we call les. Onset Alzheimer's disease and laid onset. Alzheimer's disease seems to have less genetic load if you will, or less genetic links than early onset disease. And so I would personally not feel at this point that that would necessarily make one more likely to develop this disease than the general population. When asked you when we're question, is there a difference in what we're seeing right now between women and men? When it comes to Alzheimer's disease? We do see evidence that women are more likely to be diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, and we think that's a very interesting fact. It's true that women live longer than men on average, but even when you adjust for that, women have a somewhat, I risk of developing Alzheimer's disease than men that is Dr. Paul Newhouse director of the center for cognitive medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, talk. With us about dementia and Alzheimer's disease. Thanks for joining us. You're very welcome. And here now is a production of NPR in WB. You are an association with the BBC World Service. I'm Jeremy Hobson. It's here now.

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Democracy Now! 2020-07-27 Monday

Democracy Now! Audio

59:02 min | 6 months ago

Democracy Now! 2020-07-27 Monday

"From New, York. This is democracy now. Predecessor trump's deployment of federal forces to Portland Oregon Seattle and other cities has sparked a new round of protests across the country will go to Seattle and Portland for the latest then we remember civil rights icon Congressman John Lewis. John Never gave up hope. His optimism. Is What he inspired in all of us. We're all infused with that optimism. Chance you hear him. Find a waiting. Get in the way. Trouble. NECESSARY TROUBLE! Dr Martin Luther King called him the boy from try. He was a son of Alabama and seventeen term Congress member from Georgia on Sunday horse drawn carriage carried Lewis. Body over the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma where he was almost speaking to death that voting rights march in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, five, now known as bloody. Sunday, we'll speak with Princeton University professor Eddie Law about the legacy of John Lewis Black lives matter and new. Begin again James Baldwin's America and it search lessons for our own. All that and more coming up. Welcome to democracy now, democracy now dot org the quarantine report I'm amy. Goodman Corona. Virus cases continue to surge much of the United States where the number of confirmed infections has topped four point two million with nearly one hundred, forty, seven thousand reported deaths. Florida's surpassed New, York become the state with the second highest number of infections after California the White. House Corona. Virus Task Force Dr Deborah. burks called Florida, Texas and California three New York's in California healthcare providers say there again dealing with shortages and testing, which is hitting low income and immigrant communities. The hardest in Texas, doctors at a Rural Hospital in Starr County received critical care guidelines to. To help them decide which covid nineteen patients the hospital can treat, and those who they send home because they're more likely to die southern Texas is now also reeling from Hurricane Hanna battered the region Sunday, causing flash flooding and knocking out power lines, hurricane Hanna also caused major damage in parts of Mexico meanwhile in Puerto Rico a protest. Caravan Saturday called for San Juan's international airport to shut down all non essential travel as tourists continue to vacation on the island despite rising cove, nineteen, thousand nine hundred cases, and are often seen not wearing masks or practicing social distancing this is Ricardo Zonta said the Socialist Workers Movement which organized the protest. Were not backing down. We're going to continue this caravan in the struggle, because this is a life or death situation and this governor has not been addressing this issue, so we've done in the past. The people are going to take matters into their own hands and Immigration News. A federal judge has denied a request to delay today's deadline for releasing immigrant children from family detention centers run by ICE Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Texas and Pennsylvania. The release was ordered due to concerns over rising corona virus infections. There will be no family separation without parental consent. Judge Dolly G specified in her order. On Capitol Hill the Republican controlled Senate expected to unveil a one trillion dollar proposal today for the long awaited Second Corona virus relief package the legislation includes another round of twelve hundred dollar stimulus checks, according to Treasury, secretary, Steve Mnuchin and scraps, the six hundred dollar, weekly boost and unemployment benefits, which Democrats are fighting to extend instead unemployment will cover seventy percent of loss wages, which will likely amount to approximately two hundred dollars. Republican senators are also trying to pass Senator Mitt Romney's Trust Act as part of the bill, which would cut social security and Medicare. Globally, Corona virus cases have now topped sixteen point two million last week, the worldwide caseload jumped by one million in just four days as European nations scrambled to prevent a second wave of infections Britain has reinstated a fourteen day quarantine for travelers coming from Spain North Korea has locked down a city bordering South Korea and declared a national emergency as the first suspected case of Covid, nineteen was announced though outside observers say North Korea may have already had many identified or unreported cases in the Philippines. Thousands of people packed the stadium in the capital Manila over the weekend as they awaited mandatory covid nineteen testing before being allowed to return to their hometowns after many lost their jobs during lockdown. Unemployment in the Philippines surged over seventeen percent since the start of the pandemic Latin. America remains one of the worst hit regions in Costa Rica, hundreds of Nicaraguans have been stuck at the border after authority shutdown entry into Nicaragua for anyone who's unable to present a negative covid nineteen tests, including their own citizens in Mexico. The Health Minister of the northern state of Chihuahua has died from covid nineteen in Brazil, the second most affected country with two point, four million cases New Year's Eve. Festivities Rio de Janeiro have been canceled. The event draws up to three million people each year. In Bolivia. Where Corona virus cases are still surging election officials delayed the presidential election for the second time this year, citing pandemic former Bolivian President Evo Morales was ousted last year and replaced by right wing interim, President Janine and use the world. Health Organization warned last week, Kovic nineteen is taking a major toll on healthcare professionals across Africa over ten thousand health workers across forty African countries have been infected Morocco's lockdown major cities including Casablanca, Marrakech Fez as recent spikes have been reported across the country. Anti racist protests across the country in the United States this weekend were met with violent police, attacks, arrests and the death of a protester in Austin. Texas for the Sixtieth Day in a row. Demonstrators rallied in Portland Oregon Sunday shortly after midnight this morning. Federal officers fired tear gas and other crowd control weapons to disperse a crowd that gathered outside the federal courthouse was just become a flash point of the nightly protests president trump's deployment to federal agents to Portland and other cities sparked a new round of protests across the country this weekend on Thursday. The trump administration sent a team federal tactical border officers to Seattle. It remains unclear what role the agents played at Seattle police arrested dozens of protesters and fired flash grenades and pepper spray into crowds in related news from Seattle judge has ordered the Seattle times and four TV stations hand over to the police photos and videos of a protest in May during which windows were smashed and police cars were set ablaze the police. Hope the images will help them identify suspects and move press. Freedom advocates on reporter's warn endangers all journalists and Austin Texas. A protester named Garrett Foster was shot dead. Foster's mother said her son was pushing his fiancee's wheelchair when a car drove into the crowd and open fire. On Saturday, three people were injured at a Louisville Kentucky protest over the police killing of Brianna Taylor. The gun fired at this weekend's protests belong to a member of the armed coalition of mostly Bach activists known as the not ing around coalition. The three victims were also part of the group in Aurora. Colorado authorities are investigating. After a car drove through a black lives matter protests. One protester also reportedly fired a weapon at the march. In Chicago Christopher Columbus statues were taken down from two parks after an order from Mayor Lori Lightfoot, one of the statues was in grant park where police officer last week, Punch Teenage Activists Miracle Boyd in the face, knocking out her teeth during a protest to stop all the tattoos statue for more on her case. Go to democracy now dot ORG. The body of Civil Rights Leader and Georgia, Congressman John Lewis has made one last trip across a bridge in Selma Alabama that became a flashpoint and the struggle for racial equality in the Jim Crow South on Sunday a funeral case, drawn by two black horses, crossed the Edmund Pettus bridge with family members, placing red roses on the spot, where Lewis was almost beaten to death by police in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, five while marching for voting rights. This is Fred Lewis speaking at a weekend memorial service for his brother John Lewis. I remember the day when Joan left home. was. told him not to get in trouble. Not Getting away. and. But we all know that. John got in trouble. got into waiting. But it was a good trump. John was different from the race other family. And he would have those all the troubles. He got himself into with changed the world. After his body was taken across the Selma Bridge, he lay in state in the capital of Alabama in Montgomery. Lewis Body will then lie in state at the US Capitol in Washington DC ahead of funeral in Georgia meanwhile House Majority Whip Jim. Clyburn is seeking to rename a major voting rights spill after John Lewis. Legislation which is already been approved by the house would restore parts of the voting. Rights Act gutted by a Supreme Court ruling in two thousand thirteen Republican, Senate Majority Leader Mitch, McConnell has refused to schedule a debate on the bill. In Hungary over seventy journalists almost the entire editorial staff of index, the country's largest online independent news outlet resigned Friday. Following the removal of its editor in chief, the news deals a major blow to press freedom and Hungary, which has been under attack by the authoritarian Prime Minister Viktor Oregon and his Fidesz Party earlier this year, a powerful businessman and ally of Orban's but half of indexes advertising agency protesters took to the streets Friday to defend press freedom. Will also. Became protest because another independent news portal has fallen victim. I don't like this is why I came. There is hardly any free press left in Honduras. Protests continued demanding the return of five for now land defenders who were kidnapped last week in the northern coastal town of translate delacruz on Saturday, police reportedly began shooting at a crowd of protesters. GARIFUNA leaders believe Honduran police and military are involved in the disappearance. This is Maria, Miranda a Garifuna. Leader with the group blocked. Fraternal Organization of hundred speaking from her home in Honduras Sunday. Also what happened eight days ago? Today is the reflection of a systemic persecution and systemic repression, but also a well-crafted plan on behalf of the state to exterminate the goody for now community. In Russia tens of thousands of protesters took to the streets for the third straight weekend and the Far Eastern City of Hubbard offs. Demonstrators are calling for President Vladimir Putin to resign, and for an end to corruption and economic inequality in other news from Russia President Putin, said he's arming the navy with hypersonic nuclear weapons and underwater nuclear drones, fears of a new nuclear arms race had been mounting following trump's withdrawal from the IMF treaty last year. The trump administration. Friday cleared a major hurdle for the proposed pebble mine, a multibillion dollar, copper and Gold Mine in Alaska that would be among the world's largest environmentalists and local indigenous communities have fought against the proposed mind for nearly two decades, saying it would poison their communities and devastate Bristol Bay Salmon Fishery. In other Environmental News Group of Progressive Democrats including Minnesota Congressman Burial Hano Marin Vermont senator. Bernie Sanders introduced a bill Friday. That would stop fossil fuel companies from receiving billions of taxpayer dollars in subsidies and federal Corona Virus Relief Funds Propublica has published the disciplinary records for thousands of New York City police officers. Records that were until recently completely sealed off from the Public New York lawmakers voted in June to repeal the controversial fifty, a law that shielded the records in the wake of George, Floyd's killing and emits the nationwide anti-racist uprising. For public obtained the records from New York City Civilian Complaint Review Board before a federal judge last week issued a restraining order blocking the city from releasing the data, and why unions are suing to prevent the city from making the records public. Florida Congressman Ted Yoho which forced to resign from his position on the board of a Christian organization. It's the fallout from his verbal attack on Congress. Member Alexandria Cossio Cortes. Organization bread for the World said you know host recent actions are quote not reflective of our ethical standards. Yoho called the Cossio Cortez a quote F ING B Word but he used the full words after he accosted her on the steps of Capitol Hill last week. A OC responded to an attack from the House floor, calling out the culture of violence against women and video that quickly went viral to see her full address. Go to democracy now dot ORG. And Republican Senator Tom. Cotton of Arkansas's proposed a bill that would cut federal funding to any public school that includes the New York Times Pulitzer, prize winning sixteen nineteen project as part of its curriculum, the initiative is named after the year that enslaved Africans were first brought to North America in an interview with the Arkansas, Democrat Gazette. Senator cotton refers to slavery is a necessary evil upon which the Union was built unquote. And response. Sixteen nineteen project writer Nicole Hannah Jones tweeted quote. If Chattel Slavery heritable Generational, permanent? Ray Space, slavery, where it was legal to rape, torture and sell human beings for profit were a necessary evil as Tom. Cotton says it's hard to imagine. What cannot be justified if it's a means to an end unquote. And those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now. Democracy now dot org. The quarantine report I'm Amy Goodman. For the sixtieth day in a row, demonstrators rallied in Portland. Oregon Sunday to protest against police, brutality and racism as well as the deployment of federal forces to the city shortly after midnight this morning, federal officers fired tear gas. Recalled less than lethal weapons to disperse a crowd that gathered outside the federal courthouse, which has become a flash point of the nightly protests weekend demonstrations in Portland. Came days after the Portland City. Council unanimously voted to bar Portland police officers from cooperating with federal authorities on Saturday, federal authorities revealed they had arrested or detained sixty people since being deployed to Portland in early July. Meanwhile Oregon Congress members, Earl Blumenauer and Suzanne Bona Msci. And about a dozen other lawmakers are demanding the resignation of Chad Wolf, the acting head of the Department of Homeland Security over his handling of the protests president trump's deployment federal officers to Portland and other cities sparked a new round of protests around the country this weekend on Thursday the trump administration sent a team. Of Federal Tactical border officers to Seattle Washington in a statement. The Federal Protective Service said quote. The B. P. team will be on standby in the area. Should they be required remains unclear. What Role? The agents played this weekend at Seattle police arrested dozens of protesters and fired flash grenades and pepper spray into crowds. Protesters also took to the streets and other cities including Oakland New York Los. Angeles Louisville Kentucky on the Honda BRASSICA. Richmond Virginia Aurora Colorado and Austin Texas. Where protester named Garrett, foster was shot dead foster mother said her son was pushing his fiancee's wheelchair when a car drove into the crowd and fire. We begin today's show in Seattle and Portland in Portland joined by pastor. Ed Monday a civil rights activists president of the Portland Oregon, branch of the N., double ACP and in Seattle Washington Nikita. Oliver is with US CO executive director of creative justice. She's also an artist attorney and community organizer with decriminalized Seattle and King, county equity now we welcome you both to democracy now on the Keita. Oliver let's begin with you. Can you explain what's happening in Seattle right now? With president trump saying. As part of this surge. They've brought federal agents in on quote standby. Talk about the protests this weekend and what this means. Yeah so this weekend. Many people took to the streets, and and I want to make sure that we keep the focus on black lives are ultimately people are in the streets and offensive black lives. However, it cannot skate board that trump sending federal officers to our city has certainly further emboldened the protests that being said you know we don't know exactly what the federal officers are doing. What we do know though is that we are in a situation where local police are welcoming those federal agents and And to our city, the head of the local police union the Seattle police officers guild went on conservative radio about a week ago, praising the federal arrest of protesters in Portland and saying it might be time for the feds to come to Seattle You know this past weekend. We also saw a renewed violence by Seattle police. Department against protesters and you know they actually actively fighting against a ban on tear gas and rubber bullets at the Seattle, city council and posed and the trump department of justice. Essentially back the Seattle, police department and lifting that ban, and so we know that in addition to fighting police in our own city. We are also fighting at the federal level. Against, federal, enforcements being sent to our city. Can you talk about how you're protecting yourselves? You tweeted police or snatching up. Umbrellas traffic cones gas masks from protesters. These are literally protective gear to keep protesters safe from police violence. Absolutely you know. A lot of new tactics are being developed in the streets to keep people safe such as unbrellas mutual aid networks to the sport -burse. You, know protective goggles people are wearing bike helmets and construction helmets as a way of protecting ourselves from the debris. Flash bangs even this weekend we saw. Seattle police, dropping flash BANGS from the top of private roofs, and so people are developing many tactics within the streets to keep each other safe, and I think that is really the important part. People are protecting each other the way that we always have knowing that when it comes to police, violence, we as a community are really what we have is our safety street medics playing a key role and often putting themselves at great personal risk to take care of people on site, but we know that ultimately. The best protection that we're looking for isn't just these tactics that we're developing right now on this moment, but it is an overarching protection against police violence where we have less police, people are staying in the streets and offensive black lives, and the demand currently on the ground. Here is to fund as PD by fifty percent in both the rebalancing package of our city as covid nineteen has. Has caused a three hundred million dollar shortfall, but also in the next upcoming budget as a tactic for decreasing police violence across the board, so what we are both the many tactics on the ground and the street to keep people safe from pepper spray. Various Yoga's flash bangs others also an overarching work that's happening to. How do we keep people safe from police violence across the board? So Nikita Oliver. Some five thousand protestors stopped at a youth detention center. Can you talk about the history of that place? The protests that we're seeing right now are literally built on years of a growing abolitionist movement in the Seattle King. County region, a one of the fights that began in two thousand and twelve was to stop. King County from building a new two hundred and forty four million dollar, youth jail and a new court complex there was an entire generation of young people, or there is an entire generation of people since two thousand twelve, who had literally come of age fighting the construction of this new youth jail, and it opened earlier this year and a part of combating state-sanctioned violence over policing police, brutality and our city. City is also acknowledging that the criminal punishment system is deeply attached to policing and black indigenous and people of Color neighborhoods last week very significantly, the King County Executive del constant team who was the biggest cheerleader of the youth. Jail announced that in twenty twenty five, they will attempt to close a youth jail other presently somewhere between nineteen and twenty one young people being held in cages and that facility. We know that without the groundwork that black native folks have led and our city to stop the building of the youth jail to stop the building police bunkers that the work where presently doing right now around the funding, the police would not have the foundation that it has when the uprising began this summer. We already had demands ready, because we have been for an extended period of time fighting this new youth Joe and so two coalitions decriminalized Seattle and King County equity now really rose out of that work, so he's in our sights on that movement of no new youth jail of closing down new present, but also closing down. Adult prisons within our region has been a significant part of laying the foundation for this President Uprising for black lives I wanted go to a Portland black lives matter protester addressing the crowd last week. Field on being divided. A would not, be. Ever again. Nineteen third. Party. Pat. That's a scene from the streets of Portland Oregon and addition to Nikita. Joined by Pastor de Monday, who is a civil rights? Activists Press on of the Portland. Oregon branch of the AA c. p. recently wrote a piece for the Washington Post titled. Portland's protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now they're quite spectacle. Can you explain pastor? Well. We're right now. The A very serious we've had the grace. The civil rights era would seriousness and most more seriousness than we've done in the sixty years since we've seen since its inception. The shallow graves of are claiming criers for justice have now reached the streets of Portland to the stench of. Tear gas to gas and rubber bullets. At. The core of the trump's administration access important deception. Weird war, the federal government's response is no display of strength whether it's a deliberate cover up for trump's weakness, the president and his allies want to be. What is to be expectable spectacle, being a naked Yogi or on the next displaying shocking supports they need to be. A distraction to the country by engaging are moving into empty battles where there's no advantage. When we engage on their terms. We certainly most definitely lose, but we've got to be able to. Keep the focus on black lives. This is not. A war we're not in Beirut. We on the United States of America, the most powerful country in the world, and we need to understand that this revolution has brought us into the streets, and it's going to keep us into the streets until we seek great movement and Oregon. Senator Ron Wyden. Talking about the federal agents that are trump has deployed to Portland essentially fascist. He said if the line is not drawn in the sand right now, America may be staring down the barrel of martial law in the middle of a presidential election. Do you share that? Assessment Pastor mounding. And we can't fall for that Simpson. We can't settle. For, martial, law, we know where that's GonNa take us. Listen. It is time now for us to make our voices known and voices heard in the halls of justice. We welcome the protesters we don't. necessarily. We're not attracted to the islands, but that's all a part of the game. war is deception and deception is what kills our nation. When we'RE NOT WE'RE NOT A. Settled and understanding what truth is and how to the that truth we need to be able to march forward with the power that Brings that tells us that it's time right now for for the social change that will seeking. Can you talk I mean the scenes in the street of Portland thousands of people. You have a wall of moms and now a wall of dance you've got that. Wall veterans that have lined up as well. Can you talk about the various movements that have come together? And what you think is the critical agenda of the black lives matter movement right now. Everyone's seeking to advance just as important. They're facing great danger and I want to be clear. We welcome our white light allies in the street. We welcome the wall of MOMS. We welcomed the the leap blowing dad right now. There are unlocked on on Federal Forces Kidnapping our citizens. Without justification archie the mayor Portland and the governor of Oregon and both asking the leave, and it's all to no avail. We know that this is a violation of our constitution, but with president trump promising only more occupations mortar these we. We ignore this risk. Get our payroll. You know. At? Their Chords of trump's administration actions are really hurting America and not bringing American closer together, but again the focus has to be on black lives and black lives. Matter is black lives and black lives matter. That took us to the streets. It is black lives and black lives matter that. Keep us in the streets. It's a black lives issue that keep us downtown nightly in the face of a barrel and trouble. Nikita Oliver. What are you demanding of the state right now? In Seattle, Washington and Alaska same question of the Pastor, I mean you have interestingly the authorities in Oregon from the governor to the senators to the mayor Ted Wheeler. WHO's also the police commissioner? Who was tear gassed himself? Vehemently protesting the presence of federal agents, but you also have the local police teargassing people and explain over they recently, the Portland City Council last week voted not to cooperate with the federal agents. Explain the situation in Seattle right now. You Know I. Want to be very clear that will certainly we're against federal agents, being in the city and our county. We are not fighting for a local monopoly on police violence. We are fighting and a huge part of focus of our movement is worth fighting to defend the police and very specifically a King County equity now and decriminalize the are fighting to defend the Seattle Police Department. We know that there is no instance in which police actually keep us safe that. Very often when police are called into any situation, they tend to escalate it or people involved in that situation are sent into the criminal punishment system, which is disproportionately made of black indigenous and people of color, and so there are three key demands that have remained at the forefront of our movement, and in this fight to defend black lives. The first is to defunding Seattle. Police Department by fifty percent, starting first with the rebounding package and Seattle City. Council will have a an historical vote on either August third or August tenth depending on how the process goes where we're council. Council members will vote on on that fifty percent package I with the twenty twenty rebalancing We have set in a nine council members. So this is a veto proof vote that have committed to defunding Seattle Police Department by fifty percent, and there is a strong chance that we will see some defunding industry bouncing package, but our focus is also very much on twenty twenty one budget and those council members are committed to finding those cuts within the Seattle police. Department, but that's only one strategy. The next strategy is knowing that we we need a community based community word. Community Safety and public health infrastructure, and so part of the first de-fund dollars from this twenty twenty package bouncing package should be, and we'll be invested in participatory budgeting project that will be led by those those communities most affected by police terrorism, and that participatory budgeting process will lead into twenty twenty, one to determine how those fifty percent investments of the four hundred at the current four hundred ten million dollars to police Seattle police budget, so that's about two hundred and five million will be investment, community, based public health and public safety and one as soon as possible. Possible, ten million dollars in scaling up the current community based infrastructure, so we have a very strong focus on understanding that defunding the police shrinking the police is a really important strategy to get into the place where we don't have police involved and our public health or public safety infrastructure, and then finally, since May, twenty nine hundreds of protesters have been arrested. Our movement is calling for all protesters to be freed. No one should be taking a case or charge by exercising their first amendment. Right especially as it comes to defending black lives and fighting against state-sanctioned violence. And what is the role you see of? White allies of Of other people of Color in black lives led movement. I believe are Co. conspirators aren't essential part of this move in especially in our region Seattle King County We are about four percent black community within our city and so having. A strong ally ship and I use co-conspirator very intentionally you know allies are people who may look at your and say we aligned with you. We see the value of your life, but that's not necessarily folks will join you in the streets who will join you in council chambers who will take a risk of their own lives of their own wealth of their own property in order. Order to join your movement so in a city like ours where the black community is has been displaced and gentrified out of of the neighborhoods that we have made strong and popular, and in many ways, the black community has not had access to the immense wealth that has grown in our region. Having those co-conspirators is essential in the streets, but also in many of our political strategies. What I will say is this current uprising is the first time that we have seen a considerable amount of our white allies, and a white co-conspirators take to the streets in a sustained movement for the past sixty days we have seen thousands upon thousands of people. NCI consistently protesting consistently rallied and consistently focusing on the three demand that the black. Liberation Movement here in our city in our region has brought to the surface, so it really is essential that we have that that co-conspirator movement happening at the same time while simultaneously recognizing that no movement. Movement is accessible without a diversity of tactics. We know historically we've had to see a diversity of tactics. Put in place in order to win an order for movements to remain strong, and so we are also seeing that happening on the ground here from movements and the streets to movements and council chambers to move into educators and people all over our city in order to ensure that the movement depends black lives is president in every aspect of our movement, work and pastor eating Monday. You have this massive sustained protest movement in Portland which is the? Whitest large city in this country, the whitest of the thirty five largest cities. The New York Times wrote the state was founded on principles of white supremacy and nineteenth century lash law called for whipping. Any black person found in the state in the early part of the twentieth century. Oregon's legislature was dominated by members of the Ku Klux Klan, and you have a very interesting piece and the Atlantic. That said. That talks about The thirteenth, the with the passage of the thirteenth fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments Oregon's laws, preventing black people from living in a state and owning property, were superseded by national law, but Oregon itself didn't ratify the fourteenth amendment. The will protection clause until nineteen seventy-three this history to say the least resulting in a very white state. What you want to see happen now. Well I am thrilled that we're seeing so many new members come out to join US allies, and this is my sister spoke. The allies will go with you to the gate, but they become accomplices when they go out into the streets with us when they join us in our fight in the fight for restorative, racial justice in our different roles will walk together to this battlefield. Wherever, it goes, and where it takes us and however it fulfils those efforts that we're trying to obtain black lives, mattering and not being three his humor. In this battle, some of us were fired our greatest or service, and helping open the gates in guard. Those parameters that black people deserve to live in again. This is the only state in the nation that was in separate and racism. They is a place for all of us here. We are in a historic time in America a time that will never see again and the reality of the everyday black existence has been promoted to the greater public consciousness. We have woke up in this country. We awakened now, and we'll wakened by the sound of again those querying criers that were killed in the sixties. They've letters calling from the mud and they're saying it's time for just as it's time portrayed. Passer eating. Montana I WANNA. Thank you for being with US president of the Portland Oregon. N. DOUBLE ACP joining us from Portland and Nikita Oliver of creative justice and decriminalize Seattle joining us from Seattle next up as John Lewis is Berry. This week we remember the civil rights icon and speak with Princeton University professor Eddie Claude about his legacy about black lives, matter and about his new book. Begin again. James Baldwin's American. It's urgent lessons for our own. The faith that the past has. A song. That reading and Oh. Facing. I see. New. March march. Seal Biggs agree. and. Has Grown. This. Music from Congress member John Lewis says memorial service in Selma Alabama over the weekend. This is democracy now. The quarantine report fifty five years ago. Alabama state troopers brutally John Lewis and hundreds of others who cross the Edmund Pettus Bridge Bloody Sunday to demand the right to vote on Sunday the body of John Lewis, Cross, the Edmund Pettus Bridge for the final time, rose petals were scattered along the path is to. To black horses pulled a case on the casket of the slate civil rights icon. In seventeen term, Georgia congressman, who died on July seventeenth at the age of eighty, the carriage driver, more white face mask to guard against the spread of coronavirus and a black top hat, which he took off and placed over his heart, when he reached the top of the bridge and pause for two minutes over the Alabama River. The day before Congress member Luis Swisher remembered and services in his hometown of Troy Alabama one service at Troy University, which titled The boy from Troy, the nickname Dr Martin Luther King gave Lewis at their first meeting in one, thousand, nine, hundred, Fifty, eight in Montgomery. John Lewis was denied admission to the school in one, thousand, nine, hundred, fifty seven, because he was black decades later, he was awarded an honorary degree after Sunday's ceremony Soma. John Lewis. Body was taken to the Alabama. Capital to Lyon state. He will lie in state at the US Capitol in Washington DC before a private funeral Thursday after he lies in state in the Georgia State Capitol The funeral will take place that the historic EBENEEZER BAPTIST CHURCH IN ATLANTA. Once led by King in two thousand twelve congressman John Lewis came to the democracy now studio and talked about what happened on that day in March that day known as bloody Sunday. Will hit any headlines State trooper with the next. I had a concussion that debris. My legs out from under me. A felt like I was going to die. I. Thought I saw death. All these many years later recall how media back across a bridge to the church, but as I got back to the church. The church's full to capacity more than two thousand people outside trying to get into protest, but it happened on average. Is someone asked me something to the audience and I stood up and says something like I. Don't understand it. HAP- relevant Johnson can send troops to Vietnam. But cannot send troops to sell Alabama. To protect people who wanNA desires to register. The next thing I knew I'd been admitted to local hospital and so. That was the late civil rights icon John Lewis speaking. At democracy, now to see the whole, our go democracy now dot org the bravery John, Lewis, and other showed in the face of the police violence that day played a key role in passage of the nineteen sixty five voting rights actress two months later he would go on to be arrested some forty times during the civil rights movement and many times after that making what he called good trouble for more on his legacy on the movement today of black lives matter we go to Professor Eddie Glad. Glad, the chair of the Department of African American Studies at Princeton University author of a new book. Well, his old called democracy in black race still enslaves the American soul and his new book. Begin again James Baldwin's America, and it's urgent lessons for our own a professor. Welcome back to democracy now this is the week of John Lewis he will lay in stayed in three different capitals Alabama Georgia and in Washington, DC, and then be buried on Thursday. He was not only a seventeen term Congress member. He also was the head of Snick the student nonviolent Coordinating Committee. this. He came out of movements. He marched in the streets. He was beaten and arrested. Numerous Times. Talk about the significance of this. You know whatever I think of John. Lewis I think about his fundamental faith. It's fundamental commitment that human beings could be otherwise. He writes that faith is being so sure what the spirit is whispered in one's heart that your belief in it is unshakeable in its ditch. Unshakable John, Lewis demonstrated a courage that was rooted in his faith, but I think is important to me that when we tell the story of John Lewis, we understand he comes out of the student movement, and we're going to connect to the earlier segment with what's going on with black lives matter. He comes out of the student movement. Those young folk who who set in radicalized in some significant way, the civil rights movement. Movement those students between fifteen, sixteen, Seventeen and twenty two years old, some twenty three years old, and so in Nashville right as he was going to school trained under Jim Lawson he was a part of that wildfire of sit ins that shook the nation, and then organized itself at Shaw University. Student nonviolent coordinating. Committee would sneak in Marion Berry and miracle. Tilling Gas Stokely, Carmichael and Chuck mcadoo and Courtney Cox these are. These are these young students who became the shock troops of the movement who went into the bowels of the south, sometimes only two three, four deep, and risked everything literature. We call, we might call them the holy fool who risk their lives to change the nation and I think it's really important that when we tell the story of John Lewis, that we don't simply him to Dr King which is important. We understand him as a product of the student activism and remember at the march on Washington aiming. They hit Archbishop O'Boyle tried to censor his speech in some ways they were successful him and others. Are you know and what they said that famous quote that people have been using over and over again about patients. In the original version of that speech John Lewis Patience is a nasty and dirty word. So there is more to be said about his legacy and about the movement that he came out. And when you say, he was not only tighter Dr King on democracy now he talked about needing with Malcolm in Africa in Nairobi and spending several days with him. In fact, actually Malcolm X. was in Selma. And also when he marched when he had his head bashed in. Dr King Wasn't next to him. Then he went later for the later March. He wasn't there then. That was led by John Lewis. Right and it's important understand you know we tell the story of Selma as this high point. And it was it. You were right to note that if it laid the foundation for the passage of the voting, rights act sixty five, but Selma wasn't a moment of extraordinary conflict, John Lewis Marston in that March without sanctions without the sanction of he could not be representative, a representative of the same not violate. Violate, word, data committee, because snick disagree with the strategy of Seo. See in that moment you've already mentioned. Malcolm was present sneak. Organizers were challenging the basic strategy. Remember they ended up in Loudoun County Alabama organizing. What would become in some ways? The first iteration of the Black Panther Party a year later. Stokely Carmichael will declare that he's no longer going to save freedom now. He's GonNa. Say Black Power. John Lewis was chair snick from nineteen, sixty, three to nineteen, sixty six, he in effect right with was in some ways, a leader of the radicalization of the student organization edit broke his heart, amy that he lost to to stokely Carmichael EST chairperson that he had to walk away. It has something to do with this commitment to the philosophy of nonviolence and let me say this really quickly. We often tell the story of black power, and the civil rights movement as their as if they're wholly separate when we look at snack, and we look at the life of John Lewis we see that many of the people who cried black power or some of the same young people who risk their lives nonviolently. They confronted the terror of the country, the betrayal of the country and their anger bubbled over they sought power as an answer to the moral question John Lewis. Is Faith never shook though it never changed, and that's why he to this day believes in nonviolence, and that's why he's going to his grave in some ways. Of that particular philosophy. We're going to break and then talk about a man that you also wrote about At that time, also a contemporary actually of John Lewis and that's James Baldwin. Because in nineteen sixty three two years before bloody Sunday when John Lewis was the youngest speaker at the march on Washington. It wasn't a few weeks before the bombing of the Birmingham Church to show the stakes, and the killing of these little girls We're going to talk about the civil rights movement. Right up through this election. We're talking to Professor Eddie. God will continue with him and thirty seconds. Say If you buy dying Arash I've been combined it. that. Is. will be divided. Beside the sirens. Biding when you die. Mind that. In this is democracy now I mean he good than the quarantine report. We're speaking with professor. Eddie Gloss Chair of the Department of African American Studies at Princeton University is new book just out. Begin again. James Baldwin's American. It's urgent lessons for our own. This is James Baldwin speaking in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, three about federally backed Urban Renewal Programs. A boy last week he was extended in San. Francisco told me on television. Thank God. We Got Jong. If somebody ought to listen. He said. I got no country. I've got no flag. He's only sixteen years old. And I couldn't say you do. I don't have any evidence to prove that he does. Tearing down his house because the San Francisco is engaging in most cities now on engaged. In something called Urban Renewal. Which means moving and he goes out. Getting it means Negro removal. That is what it means. And the federal government. Is. Is An accomplice to that? Now this we're talking about human beings. There's such a thing as a monolithic. Wall or you know some abstraction calls legal problem. He's Negro. Boys and girls who sixteen and Seventeen don't believe the company means anything that it says no people have any place here. On the basis of the promise of the entire country. James Baldwin Nineteen, sixty, three, nine, hundred, sixty, three was also the year as I said of the Birmingham Church bombing, four little girls killed a James Baldwin. Giving fiery addresses about what this meant, he would eventually leave the United States professor glove. He has been the backdrop of your life. Talk about what he represented then and what it means for today. Well you know I've been thinking thinking about James Baldwin for about thirty years. He's been my spirit in my head at the foundation of my scholarly career in some ways, and what I wanted to do was to think about him as poet who spoke the truth to our times, and you know amy he had to come to terms with the fact that the country turned its back on the black freedom struggle he had to come to terms with the fact that the nation in effect assassinated Dr King and he collapsed after nineteen, sixty eight, and he had to pick up the pieces, so what I wanted to do was to walk with James Baldwin. In some ways grappled with his moment of betrayal, and find resources for us in our moment, as we're grappling with our own moment of betrayal, and what I learned is that he spoke truth, he spoke truth insisted that the nation confront the Lai the illusions that protect its so called innocence, and that became the basis of writing this book in this moment, which trump is over determined so much of our lives. And what does he have to? Why did he leave America? Talk about that. And also. What does he teach us about today in this? Election that we spoke to noam. Chomsky says that's the most important election in human history right now here in the United States and the most powerful country in the world. So in nineteen forty left left the US in nineteen forty eight, because he had to get away, he said the hatred was taking root in him, and either he was gonNA kill somebody, or he was gonna be killed, and so he left Harlem and went to to to Paris and there he engaged in this extraordinary act of self creation, where he willed insulted to being a writer, but he had to do it outside of the country, so he could at least breathes, so he could find the space to imagine himself otherwise to deal with what was deposited in his gut. And is precisely I. Think the Baldwin as witnessed Baldwin as someone who tried to make real the suffering. That is the lesson we need to learn today. He insisted. That we tell the truth about who we are and what we've done that. We put aside the midst and illusions and understand what white supremacy has done in terms of disfiguring and distorting the character of this nation. In this moment we have the forces of authoritarianism clashing with the Forces of democracy. In this moment we have the nation trying to confront. What will it be and the question is really? Will it double down on his ugliness? Will White folks simply doubled down on being white folk again and do we have to deal with another generation, my son in his children, having to deal with the implication, and the consequence of that dastardly and ghastly decision to be white. So you call the buck begin again. James Baldwin's American it's urgent lessons. For our own, take it forward to now. Well I get the title from his last novel just above my head and I paraphrase here. He says when the when the dream was shattered. People scattered. Some lost their minds. Some went to jail. Some left the country, but we know what we did. And he says responsibility isn't lost. Responsibility is advocated. And, if one refuses abdication, then one begins again, and at the end of Nineteen, seventy-two important book name in the street. He likens US two midwives, trying to give birth to a new American every time, amy, every time we are at this moment where we can give birth to a different way of being in this country, a different multiracial America. The umbilical cord of white supremacy, is wrapped around the baby's neck and it chokes the life out. So here we are in this moment once again. Our responsibility if we don't advocate, it is to try to give birth to a genuinely multiracial democracy I think if we fail this, I'm not so sure country will survive, but that's best. What's in our hands in this moment and nobody else teams? Also is bravery and speaking out as a black queer man in America and then leaving this country. Yeah, I interviewed a Angela Davis right here in Princeton, and she said in so many ways he was alone. He said when he roggio bodies room he he said I. Had you couldn't hold my sexuality over me I told you and the courage of this vulnerable frail man to speak truth to power with no matter the consequences right and I think we, he he, some ways is an exemplar for us. What does it mean to hold true and steadfast to our convictions and? And not take the bribe because when James Baldwin understood when he when he embraced those young people who cry black power. He understood the cost he knew what would happen to his career, and so the book amy focuses on the latter part of James Baldwin, squier not the early part, and I think we need to understand the cost and be willing to take the. About those risks, and what this election means right now your assessment of president trump. Oh He's a disaster. You know I was on your show debating Michael Eric Dyson. If you recall about the two thousand sixteen election, and and I said I wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton. And you know I was thinking about this. And in some ways I overestimated white America. I didn't think they would elect someone who was so clearly unqualified to be the leader of the country, but the mandate of Donald Trump is clear line the pockets of the guards and make America white again, so we have to do two things in this moment we have to get him out of office, and we have to push your vision for complete reimagining of American Life. We have to do. We have to put forward. Forward a radical vision of this country something like what Makita Oliver put forward in the last segment we have to do both things. Simultaneously is not an either or I learned my lesson. Sometimes it's Jimmy Baldwin said in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, nine, when faced with the election of Ronald Reagan and perhaps the personal liberal president in the United States Jimmy Carter says sometimes voting for Black America is simply a matter binds. We need to understand our choices, but we need to get down to trump out of office, and we need to put forward a radical vision of America moving fall. And president trump can hanging now onto these toppled confederate generals, the significant serve this moving in federal troops to American cities and this all during the time of Kovic which disproportionately affects communities of Color? You know we've been risking our lives ever since vote brought us here. And, so we see folks risking their lives in the midst of this global pandemic call attention to what police doing to US daily. Donald Trump is in the midst of reasserting the Lai at every moment at every time, in which the nation faces a kind of moral reckoning, there's a reassertion of the lie that lie is the belief that America's the Shining City on the hill that lies the belief that black don't really have the capacity to really take on the real serious burns of citizenship and lie is rooted amy. In this idea that racial justices philanthropic enterprise right, and so what we're seeing in this moment is not only the. Everyday ordinary people we see in clearly donald trump, trying to reassert the lie that Americans are white nation in the vein of Old Europe. Princeton University professor Glud. His new book is. Begin again James. Baldwin's America and it's urgent lessons for our own. That does it for broadcast. Stay safe save lives where a mass.

Congressman John Lewis Seattle United States president Oregon Portland Portland James Baldwin America Washington professor Selma Alabama Dr Martin Luther King Alabama Nikita Oliver Texas Princeton University
Episode 53 -- Waddell Wilson Part 1

The Down and Dirty Show

57:26 min | 1 year ago

Episode 53 -- Waddell Wilson Part 1

"Hello my name is rik houston and welcome to the same bop. Podcast your source for all things nascar history. They put your main room was going to get rid of they figure. If you mess up in the place i had one of my favorite affects nece and i want everything perfect we got his. I wouldn't give you two hundred dollars. So we ended up starting started second. I wouldn't unload the quick down and got that race on a wing bringing the <hes>. We've got the door bars. We didn't have permission that all day. Nascar and all of us associated anyway with nasqad surkhet. It's passed. They don't have any issue. I i'm steve wade and i'm rick houston and steve. When this episode drops on winston i do not i plan to be a boston red sox game with my son at fenway park and it is going to be a miracle if we make it there because the houston boston good night and we're driving. Oh austin is yes. I say her mouth yeah. I have these memories of going to the bush series banquet in florida with janey the and the boys and my mother-in-law. I knew i was in trouble when we stopped three times before we got to charlotte yeah sure so if we make it to boston man i'm liable to set all three of them out on the side of the road. I want to warn the fans fenway. I want to warn the asa rick. Heusen and ed bow ball comes your way run for your life itself. Things just live in infamy. Go ahead and tell your version of the it was okay you had joined. A couple of this guy says see that game and it turned out. We were sitting on the right hand inside with stadiums. I recall we were down the first base line and there was was not very crowded at all all of a sudden a foul ball comes skyrocketing rocketing our way and you pick up and start running after that and i don't know what you did when you ran over this kid rock locked is as two legs sticking with the air behind the grays dan seats does your kid gets younger and younger everytime he's as young he was resilient. He'll get over it now. In all fairness each major league baseball stadium has a game used store to where are you can just go and buy a ball that was used in that game. I didn't know that yes slob so maybe the kids of boston are safe now. Let's hope so now. How are we going to follow that up. Steve this week. We have the first part of the interview that you and i did with what l wilson. Awesome wardell was recently elected to the nascar hall of fame and i think in this interview our listeners are going to begin to understand why wow that was because when you sit across from somebody and talk to them about them serving on the crew of fireball roberts uh-huh and fred lorenzen and build an engines for mario andretti's daytona five hundred win and working for the legendary holman moody we knew do wah dell as a crew chief for drivers like jeff bodenheimer beggar ricky rudd and that kind of thing but then when you think about he she is journey. That's one of the things i love about this podcast because you do learn about people store or started as an engine builder yes and to this day if he remained an engine builder each still would be in the hall of fame seven cars using what l. wilson engines at one the daytona five hundred. That's seven victories. Were wadden in engines alone. You gotta you gotta think that i do not become a crucial as i said i think he would be under very strong consideration as an engine builder right it was more than that and the thing that i loved about the conversation station is the fact that just how close all this came to not happen because it was almost by accident right right. It took plants meeting jess. Everything yeah chance meeting changed everything and also in our second segment. We're gonna talk about the september fifth nineteen ninety one issue of winston cup saying harry gant wins at darlington right which we've been talking about a little bit in the past couple of weeks. There's the whole back story to that. There's so much news that was in that issue about that race and also there's a couple of features and news items in this issue bunk. He kanoute's and i'm the great name. There's a funky knudsen feature in this issue and also one of the most chilling news items. I guess i ever saw in this issue deb. Williams wrote it about a helicopter crash. That phillips was in where markle that he's alive. Yes it's very remarkable that he's alive so stay tuned for that segment and stave on patriots on five dollars. A month will get you one classic issue of western cup saying ten dollars a month. We'll get you to classic issues and steve anybody who does five dollars a month or more on patron will receive one of these commemorative issues of grand grand national saying that darlington is doing for their throwback weekend and something a habit. That's going to be a limited edition and i don't know how much sweeter can make that pot so patriot dot com slash podcast. You'd rather just do a one time show support it pay pal dot me slash the vault podcast what l. take it away l. Welcome and i just want to ask you to start you are born and raised from burnsville north carolina no bakersfield wheel banker. They said burnsville. Tom higgins okay but still up there in the mountains of north carolina very right through a first of all. I gotta ask you mentioned tom. Higgins so legend has it that that you guys played basketball against each other in high school in some way somehow there wound up being some kind of altercation as time evolved awed switchblades were involved nunchucks and what actually happened well. He accused me of hit him in the mouth but i don't recall all doing it. You know we we played him. In basketball from michio cownie is county and the school played each other normally in the tournaments and <music>. I remember playing against tom. He was a heck of a player must still don't remember hitting him in the mile. You hit him in the mouth and he looked at you and say why lil why rainy world did you hit me in the mouth. Else says damn anybody you by twenty. Two points actually herb. They were a journalist stretch into the tree. Who would have thought it would've thought it. You grew up in north carolina. You went to nashville ashphalt odessa college in tennessee then you wound up in miami how racing enter the picture well there are some guys went to highly holly speedway one saturday night and during the race i mentioned to him. I said well. I could out run those guys. They said okay sunday on saturday nine sunday with building a race car. I didn't win the first couple of times out but i did win the painfully well. How long did you race. And why did you decide to get out of of it. Well i raise for a couple of years and then yet i i finally taught my race car and and you took so much money to keep them going and it it was out of my pocket and working all work on that race car. I just found that spending more slim doing something so that's when i quit racing. If i'm correct you went from there to home and moody i went home ended up getting married to barbara my wife in <hes> so worked at afford place in spruce pine north carolina hall cash and changed hands different owners. They didn't like me and i didn't like them so i left and come to charlotte marla to see if i could find employment you know but i look for diesel work for to your two days. I couldn't find anything printing mountains. They wanted to go get the job at home in a meeting. I said okay i said i think that's a joke real anyway. I'll go and run into the holiday our general manager and he said i do anything boy. I said well. I'm looking for for employment. He said well. We don't know how i'm going out. The door not not dissatisfied. I figured i'd be answered ruining john home and he said canadian some looking work and he's gonna stay up my office and he got behind. His day opened his own. I will tell him what i've done in racing and it didn't think he's the painting attention than me so finally graduate from lifelock said where's your toolbox. I said one time he said eight o'clock so and i was at they don't have a clue what i was getting into now. If you had not run into john home and on your way out of the office what would have happened. I would've left to not disappointed because i didn't figure job there anyway. Now with a reputation at holman moody had at that time right now. Would you have eventually tried to get into the sport again or were. You actually headed towards a show. I never had node no thoughts of getting into racing working on race car. Um your thoughts about it at all so it just happened. I mean like rick said if john holman had not got a hold of you that way you you might be a retired and engine builder for joe smith for working on diesel engine. It was a blessing. I thank god that you know they did put us together and you know he don- home and i want him so much but doing that for me. Because that was what started my career period john homan go from working on diesel engines to racing engines. How did you adapt to that or was there any of that adult a patient. Now you know the plus i when my favorite is is a perfectionist so now want everything perfect and funny thing about it. When i come in the next morning to work run into our heart and i can tell like tickly like me so anyway he put me and i thought well that's kinda. He don't know nothing about me at all. So friend of mine came to the hall of fame two or three years ago and said i want to tell you the rest of the story. He said when you come to work. He said they put your name is going to get rid of you because i figured you'd mess up in engineering and he said for two or three months went along lee terry was over the engine them and they i check my work overtime. I got along to go to break. Whatever finally said you know. I think we got somebody kind of special better. Leave them alone now. When you first i began with holman moody you were on what fireballs yeah they create allows that to since i went to work at eight put me on his pit recruit fireball roberts picture. What were you doing. Well depends on what who showed up terrain so you didn't have especially you just did whatever no i didn't but you know i think carried tires in our ended up being jack man in front tartu changer and you know but but <hes> you know most of the time carried tarzi with far ball because he was the only driver hit me was daytona wanna july fourth race and he told me two or three times sitting on pit road is now wherever you go with that signboard folly so member there okay you come down pit road alive pit stop and he's about pits so white from you can stop that. We'll drum brakes and come faces. He is and i said nike ruin. He don't follow me got close to me. I jump straight up landed back on run up on me and i'll end own windshield rolled off to wind chill dumb job and he never ever said a word about it. What kind of person was he. He's a great guy he he you know he is one that <hes> basically at that time the spokesman for the sport right yeah absolutely great individual great to work for he'd come in the morning and again bono workbench and watch us work whenever ain't nothing this watches yeah and you know i don't remember how much i wouldn't accrue david if i'm on just one employs voice but now i want to hear the engine though and <hes> but he was he was unbelievable racer you worked for fireball ablaze and sixty three six to three and then you went to fred lorenzen team well what happened in my tent at the end of the season you know ralph ralph moody and fred lorenzen come to me and said we want you to be jackman on granja car. I remember jack carson okay so we'll go have try outs well. I i said okay. I'll do it then a lot of the guys who shop found out that type of going to be an opening there on that corner so they'll wanna try out for it so we go over and it rains arrange shop and so we do it the first time i won by little bit by ralph moody. Stop watch so anyways two or three of them sent on cheated taking on him back in a car but i did yeah so anyway i had little field of at that time so mighty quick the next time i walked out doing that was the end of that so i was in my car and sixty four and that was at a time when fred lewis really coming into his own as a superstar in this sport who you know i didn't realize time but i think basically home when i mean ralph moody and random basically want me build into biller engine goes. I'm gonna take change of the race. Tracks in lorraine come jump up my truck and say which one engine and engine so i think more what it was about rather than mean being jack man now we're you involved in the sixty seven daytona five hundred that mario andretti was that home and moody cartier yeah that was a car and wrap monday was with it you know he was overseeing that particular car now building influenza and mario that day and <hes> i was on the end of the pit crew though so i did you know that was just a hit and miss for radio coming run that rice and there's plenty of guys out of the shop it it basically never done much pick rework at all was on mario's car and they won well the only thing about it you know <hes> mario thomas you you know two or three years ago when he inducted in southern motorsports hall of fame or whatever and we got to talk for about thirty minutes about that. I didn't know the real story about that but i remember had trouble with <hes>. I got wind off the diamond without a problem. Am mario's ended up losing the campaigns so then had to take it back apart uh-huh and redo the engine. I was late leaving and i had a job tractor-trailer now so i got there the next morning and i went and told him and his agent number and told mario here's and told me he said it went into trailer. Gays agent amboise inner helped him get injured. I said no you don't want that and get different over here. Nope he said what l. told me this engine. They said one of them getting so he got the engine because he'd been complaining that wake john home and they didn't have the horrify renton yeah yeah so. He said when i hit to raise drako per practice session. He said that thing picked four hundred r._p._m. He said i knew i had them covered wow <hes> but he was he was one great guy worked twenty money's twenty four hour cars at daytona already. I didn't know that yeah they important are we had his car daytona <hes> <hes> in the twenty four hour race so he was a great guy to work went to now. What did you do after holman and moody there. We there till home humming marino. I was there for ten years. You talk back to you know one interested party talking about you know when when he in sixty four women unload cars down at daytona and lorraine's and run out there. I went down there. A month went down a genuine getting come back to mark and greens and several of them <music> out practice one hundred seventy mile hundred sixty eight seventy so richard petty unloaded his plymouth and painted blue plymouth said no one to corner never never fired it up. The first day of the second day fired up dying at things keenest agent. I will tell you two or three mile pfizer. We will give warming up to the motel so anyway. I told him i said well. You know he's got it covered. We can't outrun an emmy as let's try budget. Thanks and we worked don different things. I remember chain cam time and i'd been bantered retarded. You know find out what really work they don't hurt all old guys mechanics talking come out this and that but none of them ever had a chance to go trial stem anyway with a gain it but then we you know richard ended up winning the rights and <hes> fireball and wins and both ended up blowing up coco put cam shaves them win new. You'll make five hundred miles but they'd run a little quicker so we we left well. We stayed down daytona. I did and on monday fireball came out in the meantime we had built a fire lane at shop ford had them build it at home when the moody senate down there and we tested it on monday and left and went to bristol tested went atlanta's testing and lorenzen won the next in writing and there was all two hundred fifty miles a bit longer what el- what did holman and moody main to this sport because there weren't a lot of top top-flight teams in the sport that time you had in the process you had would brothers i guess but more i don't know that he was around a lot of them yeah career but what did holman moody bring to the table. Well you know that was the place for parts you know and we made all the wheels out of home. Yeah i remember i went to work as only thirty some including secretaries and you know the parks department you know and then another thing if the problem you know bill france senior would call john home and then we'd work on the problem whatever they've having you and there was a lot of things out a home a mood they no one knew about it for nascar. Ask god to help him with the problems having reliability on whatever it might be what are we going to have to get them into the nascar hall of fame well. I'll tell you what what you know what i'm talking about. One person that's gone on for what he done for racing and yet in the in the back started of it you know what he done that bring alone okay now with homeownership for ten years. They eventually dissolved. We still there when that happened. Yes okay. Where did you go thin well. I stayed down win seventy one you know when bobby allison down a car and you know we won't lot of racist yeah. That's after david pearson lampton david you know he wanted to championship sound at home in the money and then they quit campaign the rice cock talk bobby was gone ralph gone at that time and home come to him and said you just stay with us and we're going to run a race car because he knew i like working on cars so glen would come to know how to build his agents and seventy two and <hes> so i built his engine and then start with a._j. Donald kerr and they come to lay jay's going to leave. He's going to have to go run indy-car. Who am i gonna put race car. I said i'll tell you one guy you put uh-huh david berson is he put him in leonard. Leo you'll have a winning combination home. That's what happened yeah. I guess i build any format year in all seventy three. I live okay so you left in seventy three the end. We'll begin to save him to three. I left seventy seven. I was at home when move for ten years kanye okay. So what did you do at that point. Well ralph opened up shop and i went to work him building for being and bobby allison awesome candy parsons and probably ale g. You know one of the pilot to my life. I remember being with algae dewitt benny parsons and so i go work for them <music> but i remember and ended up in seventy three benny won the championship so you were with many when he won the okay okay. I don't know that so we won the the champions over many did in samna three and then seventy four of them went down size engines. You know i say three three sixties six days six three sixty four and they changed it to three fifty eight and <hes> i remember in seventy five with riverside and now beta come to set of pinsent man. I just gotta say pinson for daytona engine so i looked at my son's a drag race keeping an oval. We'll track car. Oh yeah the guy says you can okay so we back to the shop benny and l._g. Went bill francine to borrow money imbalance. You know for the season to write songs so i build one engine and then i go to i have some well. We're going to build another new engine for data dato. Don't can't afford it. I said well i went through all that stuff. It would blow it up and in seventy four and put an agent together so we show up at daytona leading. I believe i do too anyway but the new age and then we'll run in a couple of after we take it out. Put up put engine. We'll and we'll say the new in for the rice all right to lapse blowed up. We got this agent. I wouldn't give you two hundred artful. We're going to run the fight this whole term. You know we'll have to practice after qualify. We'll have to run the one twenty five one fifty whichever and then five two hundred well anyway end up started thirty second. I wouldn't unload the pin equipment so come down next to the end. I think still run on and he'd run in second place. David pearson leading the race ends up spending out and then we get up lead. We win the rice with an engine you it and give two hundred dollars. No i wouldn't go out scrap parks so anyway come in vicar lane and i and l._g. Dewitt was and benny both i've never seen two people way beyond their semaj stretches l. but it could happen to to better people anyway. I get to thinking what size that engine apart now. What's crank that are put in because that was the difference the shave the stroke i. I don't even want to go check it. They page me so you would have thought that autopilot so anyway i go in there and take it apart and it was okay but i did not know a while that is that's why we do this by you. Bring up the seventy five daytona five hundred but another event in benny's career that really kind of lives on in history is the rockingham race in nineteen seventy three when he wrecks and everybody powell's in and starts to help put that car back together. Put that into perspective. Just how badly was that car torn. You know ended up. A reagan got the door bars so nascar said you l. Let's we can't let you on racetrack like that. We don't have them spare bars. No place and there was one guy. I don't came recall his name his he had we'd built his engine engine for him and is a car was down at the other end. The garage wound down and got that race car and we and he wasn't around so we bring it up. We got the door bars out. Well we get going back on the racetrack and the bottom line. Is you know ended up winning the james here by us being able to do that running that poor feller that we'd cut the door. He burry a right. You kill somebody pilot over where we'll put. Your grace car bike together as good as new so he's okay. They won't eat saying well. You know what the result was. The reason we don't so you basically swiped the roll bars. We didn't have permission at all grabs car up. Casinos getting enough credible jumped in to help make that happen was a big day yeah benny winning the championship. I think the early eighties was some of your most productive and like. I said it was a harry rainier in nineteen. How did that it come about that. You joined him as crew chief. Well you know about it. <hes> whatever i was going to leave it was in the middle of the summer of seventy six i think and he sat down on a box of pinson's cold you know and he said mccain lynch you leave. You know you're the key to the success of this team. If you stay in your building engine so anyway said on that side of patience and and finally i i gave into him but you know he took him. Couplers finally convinced me that i was going to because i was driving one hundred miles one way each day to work. I was living on lake norman going to elevate the work and roger penske had already met with damage charlotte douglas airport for job and i took the job with him to build for him and <hes> so i hate to call roger entailing but i wasn't able to do that aren't the considered him. An honest person already worked with him. One time it indian his when bobby allison dove his indycar tire changer so you know i i finally gave in garage colonies okay anyway i state till the end to the end of the season and the funny thing about it. We run ontario's salaya racist season. We flew into vegas and after the race and next morning i'd played blackjack kettner lost my money who allows allows had laid down twenty dollars something when they're gone. I'm going to going through well. I couldn't lose that money so next morning so my patting me on the back and it was able wit. Let's have breakfast and i look and i could not believe i laid center all night and played played blackjack but i was just so aw give out and wound so we went into have recklessly so i got it figured out what we're going to do so you stay with me he said i know you don't like that drive. He says my apologies. He's an instructor in rockingham richard airplane. You fly back and forth. I said hey oh gee. I can't i know playing well. We'll utilizes yeah. I know i said i'm going to work for her. Every year and you came on board as crew chief now from what you've told us already ready. You were more prepared to be a crucial. You've done a lot more than build ended users told us you you carried tires. You did the jack and so much more you're so was that a logical progress to be a quickie. I'd been with so many of them and watch had all went down wasn't no mystery we to brian no big one a big jump from being a engine building in tecoma job. I know when star with though you know when we open it up happen. Linear palm was driving the car. Hurry we're near an herb now and then you got buddy baker and in i could see things was going south wasn't working somewhere i come in and let her go and then that's when larry come down and i had no clue i was going to end up being a crew chief and he comes to me and he said young man said you're going to have it all. You're going to be general manager crew chief engine builder now period habits have wow we know there was a a period i believe in nineteen seventy eight where there was a lot of rumor about lennie pond being let go darrow after coming in. I know that herb herb nab and lennie pond didn't exactly get long. What was it like for you to be in the middle of all that well you get into situations like that. It's no fun town. Thank goodness you know harry saying it and you know i wouldn't want to try to get people fired or thrown out or anything like that. That wasn't my role but so many other recruit mamoon complain in you know and finally settled situated. They got starting down. What was it like for lenny to win that race at talladega with everything going on. You know i have pretty remarkable. You know i know wh- had fires racecar in the end up winning and i was so happy laney was a great guy. Great gonna work with to get. He's good and you know. I you know i didn't want to see him. Leave to start with i didn't i didn't say nothing bad about him but <hes> been herb wanted buddy biker so that's where it ended up at darlington. Raceway tradition comes alive. Here's bill out of turnover. Four herald kinder- has the checkered flag in hand and elliot takes it and wins the winston million and the southern five hundred seventy years of racing at the track too tough to tame the come celebrate the nineties with us at darlington raceway on labor day weekend earnhardt will win his second southern five hundred six victory free at the darlington raceway in south carolina jeff gordon will win mark. Martin makes four wins in a row to purchase tickets. Call eight six six four five nine race alad racist off turn number three and back to start finish to take the checkered flag or visit darlington raceway dot com the measure of career winning a stubborn five five hundred bring the family and relive the history rich but gets the checker at tim richmond wins the southern five hundred hundred south carolina just right so steve tell us about this chance meeting of that what olson had that really changed the course of his life with john on home who is half of the john home and ralph moody holman moody team hugely popular and very successful at the time and the idea behind it all was that he didn't know if john was interested at all in him coming on board and john told him why not and you know the thing that struck me was just how random it really seemed to be because he had already gone in and talk to somebody there and they said said that yeah nothing's available and on the way out of the building he meets john. Holman is right and john says what are you doing. You know invitee see my in and the next thing what l. wilson knows he's on fireball roberts. His pit crew right so it was our man. That's one of those wadi fs. You have to wonder about that. I like to think that there might have found a job and racing anyway because he had a taste of it as he told us and the he knew that what it could do in racing was but not necessarily drive but be productive on a team so i have to think that somewhere along the line why del if you put out feelers probably they would've found his way into racing but hooking up at home and moody goodness how much that helped his career and how much it helped holman moody the thing. I think that i love about this. Story is just how close it resembles my own career because steve i was sitting in bristol press box in august of nineteen ninety two i was i was doing some stringer work for the paper in columbia tennessee starling marlins hometown wasn't getting paid anything for it. I was just getting a credential into the race and i wound doc striking up a conversation with the guy next to me whose name was jerry langford in. He was the sports editor at the journal patriot in north wilkes bra and and it was pretty evident. That jerry didn't really wanna be there. It was one of those assignments that he had to do. It wasn't that he was disrespect. Disrespect for he hated being there. Just wasn't a nascar cup and so we just struck up a conversation and i moved to north carolina a month or so after that and and in the press box at north wolfsburg jerry langford totally about a newspaper in the mountains of north carolina that needed a sports editor and that's how al i wound up at the allegheny news and that's how i wound up at winston cup saying if i had not met jerry langford in the bristol press box i have no idea how much my life would have been different while i know exactly how you feel because years ago i graduated from college and did not have a job bob and had to find something for at least six months before i had to report to paris silence so i we're going to martinsville and i was on my way to talk with someone about taking a position there at a furniture factory and i just happened to drive by the barnesville bulletin so i stopped doc mccarthy turnaround wayne into the martinsville bulletin. First person i ruin into is the managing editor i said sir. I was a sports editor of my college his paper for a year. Do you need a sports writer and he says a matter of fact yes we do. Why don't you come on back here. Are you kidding. How i took a current earn events test and the spelling test and i started work for the martinsville bolton the next day at a hundred and five dollars a week. Wow i never knew that store. That's pretty cool well of course being in martinsville no add to cover a race at martinsville anyway. I did not got no one thing. I did not know thing about learn so much so quick i from clairol's and dick thompson has p._r. Man now steve as i mentioned sitting across from what l. and hearing him talk about fireball roberts and fred lorenzen and working with them during the heyday of their careers that was pretty interesting because because today we don't have those personal connections anymore with drivers like fireball and i know a lot of that is missing and <hes> i think what l. a. realizes the knights missing today as well but the good thing for him was at home and moody and working on pit crews and helping and build engines and why was getting a wealth of experience that would benefit him as crew chief also he was getting experience doing pitstops back before the pit road speeds and all that went into existence and crew members were actually out on pit road holding the signboards. Those guys were straight up crazy absolutely absolutely in on this pitstop at daytona he winds up being a hood ornament and bouncing off the windshield right and then won't won't work on the car. He's continued the pitstop. I know how dangerous that can be years ago. Tom higgins than i did a story about being crewmen woman and to do that we were on the pick crew of a guy named lanny hester lanny apart owner time yeah but he also also drove what was then known as the baby grand circuit okay those pinto's gremlins and all that sort of thing in the subcompact cars and he assigned signed me to hold the pit board for him. Ou dom hadn't do anything but wipe off the win so they told me was coming into the pits and i had to stand there and hold that sign up to make sure that he saw where his pits were so. I held that sign up and don't you know he never we're slowed down. Fortunately he did not drive into his pit area but he flew past me and i can. I can feel the win as cars passing myself. Thank hugh lord. I thought there for a minute i might becoming this and then the nineteen seventy-three season finale at rockingham that is a race. That kind of lives was in nascar legend. Benny parsons is going for the championship and at the time rockingham was the season finale he gets into an accident and the entire entire right side of his car is basically just sheared off dripped away in this accident and so what l. is working for l. G. dewitt and in benny parsons at that tom stave they went out into the garage and they found a car. That hadn't made the field for that race. I don't know how she put it. They stole it all right uh-huh and they cut it to pieces for the roll bar right what they'll didn't remember the driver's name and in greg villains just awesome set of books forty years of stock stockcar racing. The driver's name wasn't mentioned right so i sent keith parsons a message on facebook and asked him and he said that the roll bar came off the car of a guy by the name of bobby muss grove right. I don't know where bobby was gone. I don't know where bobby was when this grand larceny was is taking place but evidently according to what l. when he came back and found his car to he wasn't exactly too happy how i wouldn't be either another thing to remember. They not only did they rob a car but other crewmen from other teams came warming in to help benny get back in that race and stay okay. What does it say about that era when you had members of other teams against which benny was competing right coming in helping him how to to win the championship. I think that's a cool part of this story. That doesn't get told enough well in essence back then it was. We're all in this together other and today. It's every man for himself now. Without the help of those guys and robin car benny would not have won the championship championship no as it turned out a one at by sixty seven point one five points over kale yarbrough who is in his first year junior johnson awesome sixty seven point one five point one point one via. Don't ask me. I couldn't figure it out allowed now but the point is <hes> that's how many won the championship and he had only one victory that year were kale had four but what the difference was benny had twenty one finishes along with top ten and twenty eight raises. The system was designed to reward consistency. I guess that's where all the point this point that come in and this time it did his job in steve nineteen seventy-five daytona five hundred what they are talked about that engine like it was basically just thrown together at the last minute. He actually said he wouldn't have given two hundred dollars for their primary. Engine blew early in practice. I think you said three or four laps in and they bring this other thing out and they have to practice on it. They had to qualify on it. They had run the qualifying race with and then they had to run the five hundred with what else have we started thirty second and i didn't named phil confident enough to unload the equipment. So what does ben do well guess what he goes out and he he wins the race yeah he did and i'm pretty sure that why they'll have some serious concerns about how many was gonna perform on that day but one thing to remember. This is a race where where benny credited richard petty was letting him draft off of throughout most of the race richard had no chance to win in you it and bennie said he was driving behind richard and richard took his arm up and went come on come on meaning stick with me and by utilizing the draft with richard petty that tremendously mendis-led help benny win that race as richard petty would say the circumstances they just worked out for benny parsons to win that race and to me aid that says anybody on any given day given the right circumstances can go to victory in next week segment with what l. he talks about the nineteen eighty eighty daytona five hundred so that was the race will race fans got to know who why dale wilson was and he also talks about nineteen nineteen ninety-one sears point. Yes he yeah. We still great time well to be honest with you. It's still grates on me to follow brian caleb on instagram and twitter at speedway screens and check out the inventory at speedway t s j a dot oetzi dot com and steve this morning p updated his twitter feed and said that he had finally had a chance after his move to upload a few more atoms. He's got no talent. No man he has several new items to share with his followers with his customer so be sure and check that out because he is is doing a really good job of preserving nascar history and making it available so again follow brian on instagram and twitter at speedway screens and check out his inventory at speedway t s j dot oetzi dot com steve in continuing to look through these issues that have the race later. They were going to be featured in the commemorative issue of grand right national saint at darlington. I am continually amazed at how packed they are. September fifth nineteen ninety one issue of western cup saying harry gant on the cover pai has won a one hundred thousand dollar bonus from r._j. Reynolds and the winston million program he hid won at talladega earlier in the year and conversely. You guys didn't know what the time was the fact that he was going to go on and he was gonna win not only darlington but he was also gonna win the next three winston cup races or in a row four zero also one. I think what to buy. Series butchers races. I think at richmond and what dover that was is a magical stretch for him. Airy was already the oldest winner in nascar history to that point but he added to his record by one hundred eighteen days and at the time that he won this race. He was fifty one years and two hundred thirty four days old. He's supposed to be retired for crying out out. He was a young buck. He was beating young buck. Okay so you just put this under perspective as of this recording like as we sit here right now. I just so happened to be fifty one years three hundred thirty one as well. You know harry zandt. This day still looks fifty one years. Does you our oh man. I walked right into that chopper blade. There were only three cars on the lead lap. At the end of the rice. There was harry gant. There was runner up ernie irvine and third-place ken traitor her yeah three cars layup that going to say anymore and they're all man leads the way in this race steve davey allison was also going or a one hundred thousand dollars bonus after win in charlotte the world six hundred at the time he started from the pole and if he had won he would collected a one hundred in fourteen thousand dollars bonus to castle. He was up for a hundred thousand from winston and one hundred and fourteen grand from unocal because they had the poll program where if you won the race from the pole you want. What was it seventy six hundred dollars six thousand dollars. I believe seventy six hundred and it rolled over. If the driver ever didn't win it that race it would roll over to the next the next one hundred fourteen thousand dollars by the time david was running yeah at dengue. However and davey did everything he could do. He won the pole and he was leading on lap two ninety one and he started not being able to mash throttle all the way down for some reason so intern turn he would stomp on it yeah and that would get it. Maybe stick and open a little and in one of those exchanges he got into michael waltrip michael walker spun. David pitted wound up getting a fifteen second penalty for having too. Many people are over the wall and the problem steve. It's hard to believe the problem turned out to basam pop rivets from the cow that had gotten into the throttle linkage how much as a pop rivet cost. I'm not sure but i think both of us could afford oscillated between the both of us we could buy few but maybe a couple of cents yeah and they wound up costing two hundred fourteen thousand dollars in bonus money and on top of that whatever the winner's purse right so you're looking at probably three hundred thousand dollars that went out the window four turn set top rivet you believe and as always this issue has interesting interesting side note cow patey in this race made his first start after breaking his left leg on may sixth at talladega right and stated hey was who's running in the top five with ten laps to go when the engine let go in his car racing pontiac yeah kenny wallace how young canyon walls served as relief driver for a period of time nim cal got back into the car did extremely well at darlington but you know it wasn't to be and then steve herald kinder- the longtime flag man and such a just an awesome personality right in the sport that time he was the chief flag man he died on september the second that was a huge loss for this sport absolute he was as you mentioned that great personality. He just got along with everybody. Everybody respected him and he did his job so <hes> took it very very seriously. Only the wind flags than harold candor yes him in being the nascar official closest to the crowd he would come out of the flag stand and he would sign autographs and after a race i believe that he would give his bubble goggles away to some kid and all that kind of thing so for the sport to lose him. That was a big loss then. I believe dell ford immediately took okay yeah. Dell ford took over in this issue. Also there's coverage of david pearson being inducted into the national motorsports press association hall of fame. Honestly i would have thought he would already been anyway but not ninety one but i guess there's a statute of limitations where you gotta wait a certain amount of time these five years now in david's case ace lease until nineteen eighty six he kept taking spot right here and there and that sorta delayed his entry into the hall of fame but eh guy she got their ninety one and deservedly so and that was a cool hometown store because with him being from spartanburg and of course darlington both in south carolina right that was the hometown boy making good yeah absolutely and <hes> just how prophetic was a he's inducted into the hall aw thing while donna can race coverage is in the same issue you can't take pearson away from darlington now and you can't take darlington away from david pearson either and as i mentioned an intro in this issue there's a story on monkey can knutson who is nascar national commissioner had been involved the auto industry in detroit yeah for years and years was light motorcycle whether white trucks i think he was involved in that. His name was s. s. c. m. o. n. Seaman seaman i dunno e knutson. Monkey was his neck punky now. How did they get no. Nobody in the press except i think seeing when they wrote this feature even knew who he was. He never showed up at the track. As far as we know he was nascar national commissioner the buck stops with him now steve according to godwin kelly's feature on monkey. He was seventy eight years old at the tom o'brien brian and he was a resident of bloomfield hills michigan. Maybe that explains why he didn't get auto races bad from up there. Monkey had been in the news earlier in the season. Tommy ellis dallas was relief driving for geoff bodine who had also been injured at talladega. Hey was driving the junior johnson and associates ford in the all star race during during qualifying and practice for the all star race the winston at charlotte and he was found with an oversized engine in an oversize engine and and the engine in that car the limit was three hundred and thirty eight cubic inches and exceeded that by three point eight five five six so nearly four cubic inches. This was a walker as always said. If i'm going to cheat you i'm gonna cheat as it turned out nascar suspended junior johnson and tim broher for twelve races which monkey later reduced on appeal to four four weeks so well you know had that penalty stuck that you know week that would have been as long as suspension his nat car ever made the driver just a few years before had gotten a twelve week suspension for using a nitrous oxide by car so this would've mashed it but lucky can knutson. I like that name to reduced to four weeks as we know the car was renumbered from eleven to number number ninety seven and flossy johnson. Johnson's wife at the time was listed as the car owner. So what do you remember about that top. What was the falen in the garage about transgression where you know it was it was a transgression i mean there was no doubt in the garage or about it. Eh some people asked this is a special race. This is not appoint. Japan race can't the guys who onto cars a little bit and <hes> the answer was no. I mean now. We did hear the argument in the garage area that the winston was not appointed paying race. It was a race this where everybody wanted to go all out to win a lot of money so why not let them throw around with the cars a little bit but reason prevail. Ask guard couldn't let that happen if nothing else it might be dangerous so the cup rules applied all the way through well being a relief driver tommy evidently it didn't get the memo from junior to blow the engine up as he crossed the did. I say that out loud yes and of course the reverence there is the inaugural the winston all star race and darrell waltrip won that and magically suddenly somehow some way miraculously as he crossed under the checkered flag the engine fail that engine now. I didn't fail hankered grenada which conveniently means that what's the purpose of doing an inspection so i don't know what what happened there who knows. I don't know the bear not say anything else. Don't wanna get sued for libel or whatever but steve we mentioned also this in the intro to the show deb. Williams had just an awesome saint on the circuit news item to read her account of phillix bodices helicopter crash. I mean you've seen the story org and to imagine going through that phillips about us and his sean taylor escaped injury when their helicopter crashed on the grandfather mountain country club ebb golf course in north west north carolina on august thirtieth and i'm telling you man turbine blade came out the back of the engine and it caught on fire and basically exploded at approximately five thousand feet in altitude now that has to be the end of that. I mean can you you imagine a helicopter blown up at five thousand feet and patty surviving felix said deb story. He cut a real deep left after bank. The ball of fire came out over my shoulder. He aimed at straight down onto the ground and luckily for us the sixteenth fairway slopes down and and that's what saved our butts when we hit we bounced and slid about one hundred some feet down this bank it came to a stop next to a creek and it was on on far. Tour of the land allows them basically to escape alive. Bill got out started running but realized laws that sean taylor wasn't with him. He turned back act to turn back and sean was still in the aircraft today. Phillix said he he was trying to recollect his thoughts and he was still kind of numb. I opened the door and told him it was on fire. He jumped out and we ran. If there's anything humorous it all about disadvant- feel sad on this golf course there was a couple playing golf when we crashed and they didn't even slow down. They hit a ball right over our heads. I couldn't believe it. They didn't say a word. They just kept on going. Nobody say four so evidently that teatime was sacred in the conclusion to this story. Is that sean taylor. The pilot asked for a couple of days off after after at least you know what take as much time as you all to hear about new hero hey i'm dale earnhardt junior and you're listening to the scene ball podcast steve patriot dot com slash the same you bought podcast pay pal dot me slash the same podcast help us out over there follow us on twitter at the same vault follow us on facebook at the same vault and dan again. Thank you to peter cellino and the centaur media. Thank you jim baker and the down and dirty radio network that we're now part of. Thank you to joey. Step my best friend from high school for the musical score. Thank you dr patron and pay pao. Supporters bryan kehl appreciate you and again darlington. The clock is is taken until we're able to hold that commemorative issue in our hands absolutely and i'm going to be very very happy when we do that and i'd be happier win. We're in the band's can do that. Yes sir <music> <music>.

Nascar Steve benny parsons darlington john holman john fred lorenzen ralph moody north carolina l. daytona bobby allison talladega charlotte fireball roberts harry gant mario andretti richard petty ford
Effectively Wild Episode 1523: Do Try This at Home

Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast

1:19:38 hr | 10 months ago

Effectively Wild Episode 1523: Do Try This at Home

"The cat hello and welcome to episode fifteen three of Affectively Wild Fang Offs. Baseball podcast brought to you by our Patriot supporters. I'm league rally. Fareast joined US always by Berg of the ringer. Then how are you? I'm doing well. How are you and how has fan graphs? How's the response been to the public plea earlier? This week is fan saved at least for now. Their response has been really incredible. We've been quite moved by people's willingness to help and buy memberships and their eagerness to help beyond buying memberships and the delight that they seem to be having ad during the site at free which is Great. I'm glad that people feel like they're getting something out of sending memberships and helping us out so risona keep asking. We're not out of the woods. There's still no baseball. Such our traffic is still lower but response has been really amazing. I WanNa thank everyone for rallying you know like any community like any family. Sometimes the baseball Internet community fights or gripes or snarky with each other but we also tend to rally pretty beautifully and it makes me very grateful to be part of this community and it makes me recognize How lucky fasces to have the readership we do. And it's got to be gratifying particularly time like this to have many people coming to you asking. How can I give you more of money? Which lived up there like I bought a subscription so Now I WANNA give you some more money so that yeah working to. Yeah it's pretty. It's pretty amazing. I was talking with Dave affluent about a nightside to him. Something I expressed on twitter. Which is I think. Part of what has made this entire global pandemic which still feels like such a ridiculous phrase to say casually in conversation but I think part of what has made this all so scary and awful apart from the obvious stuff is that you're doing the responsible thing and staying at home means that you have inexperienced being disconnected from the people in places that you would normally see everyday in visit every day and talk to and so in addition to helping to ensure that there will be awesome. Baseball comes back. This response to this has just made me feel very connected to people in oil. It's been really lovely for reasons. They don't have anything to do with works so Salah Good yes there have been a lot of questions about other ways. That folks who are already members can help and we're going to have some updates on that in the next couple of days we hopefully by the end of this week What is the week? But hopefully by the end of this week we will have it set up so that folks can gift memberships to other readers. Which has the nice double benefit of helping out fan graphs but also Ensuring that other rears who aren't in a position to buy memberships themselves can enjoy the site at free so we'll have that up and running shortly and then I think next week we're GONNA have a special announcement about how our existing members who don't WanNa do that as a way of helping out at are interested in sort of helping the site can can do so. There's more to come. We apologize in advance for continuing to ASK FOR PEOPLE'S ASSISTANCE. But hopefully this ensures that when baseball is back we we will be ready for it in around. And in the meantime we're gonNA keep writing stuff that we hope folks find interesting and helps to distract them a little bit when they need a distraction but also inform them about the state of baseball as it currently stands and Podcasting and chatting and everyone is GonNa Stream. I know I now have a twitter account. Pet with a pandemic is yeah man. We're weird stuff happens in hand so sh- yes sir. The Times. They are awful and wild and very very weird. Well we have an interview coming up later in this episode that I think we both enjoyed very much and it is with Jose Vasquez. Who is the Texas Rangers Matrix? Strength and conditioning coach. He has been in that position since early. Two thousand six but obviously has not had to deal with that phrase again a global pandemic and we were kind of curious about what players are doing and what teams are doing to help those players stay in shape while they're waiting for the season hopefully to start at some point. How do you keep the gains that you made the strength gains in spring training so that you're not starting totally from scratch if and when the season starts up again and how you work out given that you can't go to a gym participate in group activities and so teams are also getting creative and are trying to help players train remotely and using some technology in distributing workout plans and using whatever equipment players have unhinged so we talked to Jose about all that and just about how his job has changed in general over the past almost twenty years that he has been doing this for Big League team? So I think it's really interesting so I'm glad we got to talk to him. Yeah you never know how people are often very good at their job and then talking about it is a whole separate skill and You Know How forthcoming team folks are going to be truly interesting conversation. So I'm excited that we'RE GONNA get to share that with folks. Yeah so we will get to that shortly before we do. I guess since it's the end of the week we can do a quick Kovic roundup of our own just following up on some stories that we've discussed on the podcast lately so there have been some developments with minor league pay namely that minor leaguers are getting paid at least to some extent which is good so baseball teams agreed. L. P. teams agreed to pay minor leaguers. Four hundred dollars a week through the end of May which comes with medical benefits obviously four hundred dollars to say that that's great news. It's there's some some dissonance there because it's not a lot of money but it is better than no money and I guess for some minor. Leaguers like lower level minor leaguers detects the race which is sorta sad but is true so. I mean this is kind of what minor leaguers get paid. I guess you know AAA players. This is a pay cut for them. But if you're a rookie leaguer and eight ball or something. You're living large rate now with your four hundred dollars a week. So at least teams are paying something and their benefits there and that reduces at least a little of the uncertainty or at least keeps it to the normal level that minor makers are used to at this time of year and obviously it's not great and a lot of people. Non Minor Leaguers are losing their jobs and having their pay cut these days so it is not exclusive to minor leaguers baseball. But this is something and some major leaguers have nicely started to step up and kind of cover. What is not being covered by? Mlb teams here. It's unfortunate that they have to but nice that they are motivated to do that. 'cause when we talked to care approaches we were asking him. Why more major leaguers don't get involved in? He was talking about how there's often this mentality of. Well I had to scrimp and save to get through the minors and that's why I got to the big leagues. It's the crucible you have to prove yourself. You have to starve. You have to room with five other people. And that's how you prove that you have major league metal or whatever or just spiteful like well I had to go through it so they should have to go through to and at least a couple of major leaguers have said No. It'd be nice if they didn't have to go through that to the same extent. So Daniel Murphy has donated one hundred thousand dollars to more than baseball and Shinsu is donating a thousand dollars of his own money to each rangers minor leaguer which is like almost two hundred players and he had already donated to pandemic relief in South Korea. So very cool of Yeah you know. We discussed the the bummer. That is the lack of solidarity that can sometimes exists between major leaguers minor leaguers Really heartening to see a couple of guys step up and take seriously the third responsibility they have. Also you know with knowledge that they're in a position to help and so they want to. I think it's really wonderful that they're doing net. It is unfortunate. That baseball is not immune from Her cultural issue. We're having which is that. The damage is revealing other problems that were sort of waiting sitting in wait for. Folkston to notice so the fact that this constitutes a pay raise for some minor leaguers should probably. I'll leave folks scratching their heads. The four hundred dollars a week could could be raised but it is certainly something. We might not view it to be sufficient response given how much you know. We would like to see minor. Leaguers get paid under normal circumstances. But it's definitely something at a time when you know these. These guys are in a weird spot on like a lot of Folks who unfortunately have lost their jobs in can apply for unemployment if they're still under contract for a team they're often not eligible for unemployment benefits. So they could really find themselves in a bad fixed so it's nice to see something being done. Even if we wish that it were more yes she was quoted as saying I will never forget the minor leagues in two thousand five. Get meals on. The road. Saved the meal money and use it to buy diapers for my son so he is trying to lessen some of that hardship for some players. And you know for a team. It's not a huge expense for an individual player. I mean granted should do has a large contract but still it's a very nice gesture and it will help some people and I think I read that this comes to like four hundred thousand dollars per team roughly to give all of their minor leaguers four hundred a week through the end of. May and the benefits. Maybe that doesn't include the benefits. But you know that's not a lot of money for a team. Under typical circumstances granted teams will at least at some point have some financial hit from missing a lot of games or even possibly season two but four hundred thousand dollars less than the major league minimum salary for one player. It would not be prohibitive at least under normal circumstances. So yeah would would they? We were all in a position to on a relative basis. Help folks out so cheaply. So Yeah Adam wainwright too head also previously donated two hundred fifty thousand dollars also. So it's nice to see some major leaguers stepping up in that way we also talked about sort of the ethical considerations when it comes to Tommy John Surgery at this time when elective surgeries have been suspended and it was syndergaard. Had his surgery and Chris Sale had his surgery. And there's been a lot of discussion and debate about that. And and the Betcha Larry wrote a good article about it for sports illustrated and talk to some medical ethicists about it and quickly received a tweet from pedo on so who kind of came at her. I guess where at critics of Syndergaard to say that well it too specialized surgery and the people who are performing the surgery or not the ones who would be on the front lines dealing with the pandemic but of course as many other people pointed out to him yes but they are maybe using supplies that those people are using or other resources that are really at a premium right now so I did see that Dr James Andrews perhaps the most noted Tommy. John Surgery Performer. At this time did decide to suspend surgery for baseball player. Tommy John Surgeries at least in Florida. So I don't know if that's public pressure or whether he just decided that was the right thing to do or that he had to do it. But if you WANNA get your Tommy John Surgery and hopefully you already did. It might get tougher to do that. That it has been to this point. Yeah I think my favorite part of Pete Alonzo's in an I don't mean to pick on him but he also responded in public way. So yeah he's on the record I think my favorite part of his tweet to was whose to judge. Someone's medical needs in order to perform their job Medical ethicist in this article. That's that's their jobs. There's lots to do exactly this. They are in fact. Exactly the people who we would ask to judge this question. They are asked two questions like this quite often. Then I guess the last thing that was relevant to a previous discussion of ours was we were talking to Erik log in Hagan last week about how this affects amateur players particularly seniors. The fact that the draft has really been curtailed this year and that there may be Minor League teams in at bonuses have been reduced especially for seniors and there was news that the NC double a. Did grant an extra year of eligibility to Division One athletes spring athletes following in the footsteps of divisions two and three and the Noaa. And so if this was your last year of eligibility as a college baseball player you now will have an additional year of eligibility which means that you could reenter the draft next year. Which is good news if you are a senior who is unlucky enough to have been ready to enter the draft this year but still going to be pretty tough begins. There's GonNa be a backlog like the draft may be shortened to begin with bonuses or not going to be climbing and then there's GonNa be a bunch of juniors in high school players and guys who would have perhaps been drafted this year. Who will not and so. They'll be back in the draft next year along with the regular people who would normally be eligible to be drafted. And so there's going to be kind of a glut of potential draftees there so still tough time but a little less tough than it might have been and it'll be interesting to see how things play out on the scholarship front one of the other things that was announced as part of that. Is that the number of players on. Scholarship can be expanded for seniors. Schools are going to be able to decide for themselves on an athlete athlete basis if they extend continued scholarship aid to would be seniors. I guess so. There will be some guys who are able to take advantage of that. But you can imagine that specially at less prominent programs where there might not be as much money to go around especially for baseball that they might find themselves in a in a tight spot. So it'll be interesting to see how that unfolds. I would imagine that you know like Van de will be able to find money for those guys but when you get into some of the smaller programs it might be trickier. So it'll be Something that we have to continue to watch and see how guys make their decisions around that so yes so other than that. People have been trying to read the tea leaves and project when baseball might be back. But there's obviously nothing concrete to report there. There was a report about the possibility that baseball comeback on July first and they'd play one hundred games season but hasn't really been substantiated by anyone other than some unnamed sources. I think so seems like everyone is just still sort of guessing and speculating which makes sense. Because we're kind of guessing speculating about everything at this point. But yeah nothing. That's happened in the past week. Makes you more optimistic about baseball? Being able to come back in timely fashion or any fashion at all this year. I suppose but everyone's still waiting and hoping yeah. I think the only thing that might this might sound counterintuitive in obviously the state by state situation is going to be shifting because operating under their own state mortars but seeing more consistent and stringent stay at home orders despite forcing folks to literally stay at home longer. Seems like it might do a lot to help. Hasten any sports return rate especially as that seems to be critical to flattening the curve. So it's nice. That Florida has decided that Kobe. Nineteen is serious to your stay at home and not go to the beach. Yeah and then. There hasn't been too much other hard news but I did see a report from buster. Only that said that if the season is canceled. Jeff Luneau an AJ. Hinch their suspensions would be considered to have been served even though there was no actual season that they missed and I saw that. The report said that because the suspensions are tied to the end of the twenty twenty postseason rather than a specific number of games would be considered that way although again if there is no twenty twenty postseason. Then I guess you could say that That hasn't actually happened. But the point is that they were essentially suspended for a season's worth of baseball or a year or a season and that amount of time has passed. And you know I don't know for Luneau I. It's not like he was going to get hired immediately anyway. I don't think that's all if at all right. So that's the question it's like you know. Will anyone give him a chance? And in what capacity? And will he even want to work in baseball anymore? And I don't know that whether he's actually suspended or not for another year really affects his job prospects because just it. Oh Wilson team think that the stain has faded enough to hire him or that they can hide him in some less publicly visible position. Then I just. I don't know that it has all that much to do with a how much time he has actually served in terms of whether there are games going on or not so for him. I don't know that it matters all that much for Hinch who may be has more realistic chance at getting his old job backers the equivalent of his old job maybe it it matters a little but again. I think it's just it's more about the passage of time than the number of games really for them because they're not players who were serving a specific number of games or missing out on accruing stats during those games so. I don't know that I'm outraged about this. I mean if you weren't outraged about this suspensions themselves initially than I don't know that this actually changes that much in my mind yeah. I've seen people on twitter which you know. Sh dangerous look at twitter spat. I generally having mutation at this and I can. I can appreciate the initial emotional response to these guys. Maybe getting away with one if you WANNA put it that way but it would encourage people to think about how much unilateral authority to change the terms of an existing suspension. We really want the Commissioner's Office to have yeah. I don't know that we want Baseball's commissioner to be more like Roger Goodell. That seems like a bad idea. And it doesn't seem like a great situation for Labor to sort of give that authority to the commissioner monkey with suspension lengths based on world events. So I think we just kind of have to eat this one at least in the initial reporting of the agreement between MLB in the MLB pa. Jeff Passan noted and I think we talked about this on the pod that for players who are serving drug suspensions. If there is a twenty twenty season they will serve those suspensions when baseball resumes. If there is no twenty twenty season those suspensions will not extend into twenty twenty one so this seems to be pretty consistent approach to how the League is dealing with suspensions of various kinds and I think that especially because we want to look at the twenty twenty season regardless of how much of it is played and say that players will for example service time during that stretch. We probably don't want to discount. Whatever portion of the season were just the idea of a season at all as as meaning something in the passage of time? The checking of boxes so it is. I really because you know not only did we could. Perhaps the language used in the initial suspension was in elegant and imprecise and that they would have been better served specifying a number of games. Or what have you? I think we have to just just half Sir live with this one. You can still. You can still boo the Astros in twenty twenty or twenty twenty one. No one's going to look at you and say well. The time on that is up that your time is your time you get to decide how long time goes but I think that as sort of Israeli irritating as it might be. This is probably the right approach to take given the other. You know suspensions and service time questions often been floating around lately so yeah and there is a reputational hit that these two guys took deservedly really fades and I know that Manfred sort of used that kind of public square criticism to justify the lack of suspensions for the astros players which that were many I think valid or at least understandable reasons why the astros players were not suspended why it was easier to suspend and or fire. Luneau and Hinch but I think in the case of players. Yeah people boo them and mock them in think less of them but also they're playing every day and they're playing at least half the time in front of friendly fans and they're getting applauded and cheered and they're making lots of money to play baseball and that's probably not going to be affected whereas with -hension Lou. Now you know they're not on the field every day. They're sort of they're employed for their leadership in planning abilities or perceived abilities and. I don't know that that actually the the failure to extend their suspension will actually make us think anymore. Highly of them in long term. So I think they're just going to have this stick with them for the same amount of time regardless of whether they are actually suspended or not so it is kind of To think about how so many of the things that we talked about and thought about constantly over the offseason just got totally wiped away. The postponement of baseball. I mean how much did we talk about them? Hooky bets trade and about the Astros and what will the response to the Astros? Be This season. And how will the Astros players play and all that stuff you know if the season is canceled than it's just it's completely wiped away and we have to reevaluate all of that or just forget about it. I mean the mookie Betts trade off. If there's no season this year we've talked about how that will kinda work out in the red sox favor even though the initial response to the trade was very negative and with the Astros. Yes if the season does resume at some point or even if it resumes next bring people still boo them and bear grudge. But I think that will be kind of tie looted by just this long delay without baseball and how happy everyone is to have baseball back and the separation in from when we were all super worked up about the Astros to whenever baseball actually returns. And just you know maybe a pandemic putting things in perspective where yes. We're angry at the Astros for what they did. But it wasn't life or death. Unlike a lot of the decisions that are being made in other aspects of life. So you know I think Maybe they will get off easy there just in that. They won't bear the full brunt of what they would have board. But you know we talk about all this stuff for months and months and we break it down to the last detail. And then some major disruptive life event comes along and it's not even really a consideration anymore or just seems so insignificant by comparison. Yeah I think that We don't say this to diminish those things having been important and still being important you know. I think that part of our returned some semblance of normalcy will be those things feeling wadey again and they don't feel Wadey now and it'll be nice to have them feel important in a way that they just they just don't at the moment but people are GonNa Still Boo the Astros at offer as evidence of this. The fact that you know Ryan Braun was implicated in. Pg stuff in like twenty thirteen and he still gets booed in in visiting ballparks but people just by folks out in the community you know farmers and cobblers and it supervisor. So people are going to be able to express their good natured frustration. I think that this does not materially as you said materially change the long-term employability of either Jeff Luna or AJ hinch and we. We should of course feel free to feel however we feel into roller our eyes at the whole thing. But you don't don't Fret. I wonder what the ball is doing with. Its pandemic time is the ball getting getting swell is out there working out. What kind of baller? We got remember when we didn't know what kind of baseball we were GONNA get. There was a county seventy some news about that. Well sort of news about that that I did actually mean to mention Bradford William Davis of the Daily News article this week about some findings that Dr Meredith wills had come up with about. Last year's playoff ball and meredith has been on the podcast before to talk about how she is dissected baseball's and tried to figure out why there has been less drag on the ball and she evidently has found that it seems like there were some earlier season balls mixed in to the two thousand nineteen postseason balls which would contradict what. Mlb said about those being the same supply that was used in the twenty nineteen regular season. She was able to open those balls up and use some identifiers. She found two seemingly place some of those balls as perhaps A mix of two thousand nineteen and definitely twenty eighteen and maybe even further back. Baseball's this was something that she told the audience at the Sabre Annex Conference. And if that's true that would again contradict what an obeef. Indoor rowing said at the time and further corroborate what we all sought we saw and wet The data said that Rob Arthur came up with to show that there was actually reduced drag on the ball but I mean that would be either nefarious or extremely sloppy. If they just happen to let these old balls into the supply when the postseason started and that just seems so sloppy that makes you wonder whether they tat on purpose because it seems like it would be hard to have that be mistake but the the balls have batch codes that tell you when they were manufactured in. Meredith has kind of crack that code and found that they were identical to baseball's that were dated during the twenty eighteen regular season. So if that's the case that would help explain why suddenly we saw a real change in. How the ball was carrying. And maybe it makes him at all over again. If you were a team that seemingly got hurt by the ad if you remember you know will Smith's deep fly ball to the warning track. That didn't go out or if you're Ronald Kunia who's still getting criticized for not running out a ball that probably would have been gone during the regular season and then suddenly the pulse change. Maybe this explains why that happened. Then I just can't wait until this. Is the supply chain flood that we care about accepting it feels so good. We're going to be riled up about the ball we're gonNA realize you decided to get Jack during your pants. Quarantine instead of writing king. Lear look back on bad choices and weird supply chain issues and feel so good. Great people are just making do with the show. Our Strategy Matic or out of the park. Baseballer whatever floats their boat. But it's been sort of fun to see people sort of simulating the season baseball references. Doing that and is putting out the data there people who are actually playing fantasy leagues that are based on that simulated data so people are desperate. They need baseball. They're getting baseball wherever they can. Maybe we'll do an episode later on about how people are coping with us but less thing before we get to the interview at you have a stat plas because Sam night did not do one earlier this week and I'm going to get a little help here with the song because I mentioned this in the out to one of us. We accept the sides but one of our listeners and facebook group members. Paul moorhead is running a step. Last Song covers concert so last week Jesse. My wife came in and covered her own song and performed the stat. Plus Song Live but there is an ongoing contest here where listeners are coming up with their own covers the step last song in many different styles and it's been really fun for me and Jessie to hear those songs and Paul even chipped in a little small cash prize to the person is deemed to have made the best step blessed cover. But I've enjoyed them all thus far. We have some very talented listener. So I'm going to use some of the covers on the show for a little. While now to share with you the creativity brilliance of our listeners. And I'm just GONNA go in chronological order here so the first person I saw post a cover was Benjamin James Cardinal and he posted a video of himself. I will link to the thread where people are posting these videos in case you WanNa make your own or sound files. And this is Ben's version of the steps on me a sword something live. You reminded Sarobi tease out tipping Santa Claus it for data set so by something like he reminds. Will tease out to me. Interesting team the scene saying here's Dan who all right. Thank you to Ben and I also have to think listener for you step West question this week. This comes from introversion. And he says since the giants participated in the alleged blackballing Barry Bonds. They have not had the same opening day starting left fielder in consecutive years so he is speculating that there is a curse of Barry Bonds here that ever since the giants did not resign bonds the last time they have had a different fielder every opening day and so he lists their opening day left fielder sheer from two thousand eight through two thousand nineteen. They've gone Dave Roberts Fred. Lewis Mark Derosa Pat Burrow. Aubrey huff Andres Torres. Michael Morse Nori Yoki Angel. Pagon Jerry Parker Hunter pence and Connor. Joe And intro continues twenty twenty. Whenever it starts or twenty twenty one will be the thirteenth year without the same opening day starter at a position. I believe Connor. Joe is now in the dodgers organization. Andrew says is this a record if not? What is the record? So is the cursive. Barry bonds thing is this notable. I've also reached out to listener to help me answer this question. This is just listeners. Contributing the song the question and the answer outsourcing everything to our audience and there is another member of our facebook group Adam ought who has a retro sheet database and the skills to query it and he occasionally popped up in the facebook group to answer listeners. Questions just post them in there and then he does the research which is a very nice service to the community and Adam was also intrigued by this question and so he crunch the numbers. He came up with an answer here and there multiple ways I guess to have a streak of different opening day players at a particular position so it could either be the giants case where it is completely unique players every single year. No repeats at all or you could have a streak of different players at that position every year but some repeats within that streak. So for instance if The giants head Hunter Pence field in two thousand eighteen and then a different player in Westfield two thousand nineteen if hunter pence where to get an opening day. Start in left field this year. Then that would break the streak. If you're talking about no repeats but it would continue if you were just talking about consecutive years so there are multiple ways to look at it and Adam looked at it both ways and the longest streak that has happened allowing repeats but no consecutive repeats is twenty six years so the Barry bonds not a record in fact. It's like half as long as the record. The record goes to an atom. Did it by franchise here so the Baltimore? Orioles of nineteen fifty eight. They snapped a streak that had extended for twenty six years that started with the one thousand nine hundred thirty three Saint Louis Browns. So the browns became the orioles in the fifty s that entire time. Thirty three to fifty eight. They had different left fielders every single year and during that time so it was Carl Reynolds. Was there opening day fielder in thirty three and then gene would ling in fifty eight and that snap the streak and I think it's interesting that this is also a leftfielder streak. One would expect left field to be a position where this might be more likely to happen. Just because I don't know you don't have as many Sort of dedicated left fielders like there's no left-field skill set really in the way that most other positions do you know it's just kinda where stick someone typically who isn't that great and outfielder but also doesn't have that great an arm they're exceptions. Obviously but you know every other position has like a body type that you associated with it or a certain skill that goes with it whereas left field as just kind of where you stick people who don't really fit everywhere else so it makes sense and also make sense that this was a time of tremendous eighty for the browns and the Orioles. So during this twenty-six season streak. They had three winning seasons. So you would expect that having no continuity is something that would probably be correlated with not a great team on the whole and then you go down from there now. This is an interesting one. The NEC's longest streak is for pitchers twenty four years the Cincinnati reds went from nineteen fifty five to nineteen seventy eight with no repeat opening day. Starters yes so our fowler in fifty five Tom Seaver in seventy eight broke the streak and I think that makes a lot of sense. 'cause I often hear the reds talked about as a franchise that just has not had. Great pitchers like in their whole history. Like if you look up the best reds pitcher in franchise history at baseball reference. It's Noodles Hahn with forty five point eight career war and hon going back a ways for noodles and he less played for the reds in nineteen o. Five and really. It's like all old timey players who are at the top of this list. And it's EPA Rick Duff Luquet and Bucky Walters and frank wire not household names and only recent one. Is Jose Reijo at Thirty six point? Four war so just a franchise that has not had. Great pitchers has not really developed them or kept them in. So I am not surprised that they would be the team to have this streak and just reading down the list here of Streaks of at least fifteen years. We've got the Tigers again left field. Nineteen forty two to nineteen sixty one. That's Twenty Years Barney. Mccloskey to rocky Colavito. Then you've got the orioles again So the ninety six or two thousand Fourteen Orioles. And this is actually. Oh this is a t h is the the Orioles Bobby. Baena too dumb and young. It's a nineteen season streak. Then you've got the nine hundred forty eight to nineteen sixty six white sox at third base nineteen year streak at third base Appling Don Buford. And you've got the athletics the PHILADELPHIA ATHLETICS AT THAT TIME. Eighteen years again pitcher from eighteen ninety seven nineteen fourteen. Al Orth to Pete Alexander. The Yankees wouldn't really expect to see Yankees on this list. But the next two or Yankees so left-field Yankees nineteen twenty to thirty six seventeen years Duffy. Lewis to Roy Johnson that time when they had other legendary outfielders and then also Yankees Right field in nineteen nineteen to nineteen thirty five seventeen years semi Vic George Selkirk. I think ruth was going from left to right. He played some of both. I think they wanted to keep him out of the sun field at a certain point so that it wouldn't affect his hitting or so. They thought and the Tigers again fifty one to sixty six. This is at catcher from Joe. Ginsberg to Bill Freehand Sixteen years and the dodgers forty four to fifty nine in left field again. Sixteen Years Augie Galan to wally moon and just a couple more here. The white sox thirty six to fifty one pitcher again sixteen years. That's John Whitehead to Billy Pierce and the dodgers again twenty seven to forty one left field fifteen years from jigger stats to Joe Medwick. Can I say jigger is it? Okay to sustain sugar jigger bids for a looking at his saber bio and it says. Let's see the stats. Family had apparently lived very briefly in Alabama and young arnold picked up the nickname chigar which became transformed the way nickname sometimes due to become jigger so now my next question is is it. Okay for me to say sugar because he was coming from Alabama. Let's say might it's like an insect of I think so. None Juniors like you used to make cocktails. Yes that's true all right. Here's the thing in in fishing to you. It's got it's got a big shot. Guile Jagai attached to each other and you use them to make drinks. Ya. I think in fact. There's the scene from party down where tickers come up. And there's a similar misunderstanding because someone over hears the word and thinks it's up to the house yet making a double hostess specifically requested no doubles one zero. What I don't want you serving them to shakers and believe that preferred term is a Jig. Rose I don't think it's a bad rule of thumb to You know casta weary toward a nickname pass to check especially the tumbling this okay. I think we can. We can say that safely. Clean out all right. And then the last one is The reds o of the reds again at hadn't starter. Yeah eighteen ninety three to nineteen o seven. They went fifteen years with the different opening day. Starters too so that's that so the giants are really nowhere close on that one but there is also the question of streaks with all new starter so no repeats at any point during the streak of nonconsecutive years so the longest here the the giants are actually pretty close but not quite there so the longest. Maybe unsurprisingly is the same as the longest for the last way of looking at this. So the Orioles had their twenty-six season streak of No consecutive starters and then with all new starters. They went sixteen years. That is the longest so nineteen forty when they were still the browns to fifty five when they were the orioles. I think they went sixteen years. Joe Gallagher to Gil Cohen with a no repeats at all and then very next on the list. We have an active streak and it is not the giants it is not the cursor Barry Bonds. It is the cursive Eric Young. I don't know who it's the curse of. Actually let's call it. The cursive Klesko Ryan. Klesko is actually a teammate of Barry Bonds in bonzes final season and also quest goes final season but before. That was the left fielder on opening day for this team the year before the streak started. It's a division rival of the giants. The San Diego padres. They have gone fourteen years also at left. Field with no repeats at all in so from Eric. Young to wil Myers and this streak will also continue if we have a season. Because Tommy Fam- presumably will be out there and this will get to fifteen years. Which would leave them. One year short of the longest streak ever so. That's something to get excited about this kind of fits too because we've talked about the padres and just like a non nitty of their position players over the years and obviously they've been quite mediocre over much of the last fifteen years or so and so yeah fourteen year streak for the Patriots and the giants as mentioned are still at twelve years and on the other ones in between the phillies again. Nineteen thirty seven to fifty fourteen years at starter. Rumsfeld Johnson to Robin Roberts and you've got the reds the reds again in left field from thirty to forty three and the as from two thousand one to two thousand thirteen. They went thirteen years. Johnny Damon to Yohan Assessment Ass- phillies left field again. Kelly's eighty four to ninety. Six was thirteen years than you get to the giants and you also had The angels just wrapped up a twelve year stretch from two thousand five to two thousand sixteen at D. H. From Tim Salmon to Albert Pool Halls. So I'll put all of this online if people are interested in perusing the list. It's also kind of interesting to see how long the longest streaks were at other positions so I mentioned the H. I mentioned left field. I mentioned right field. Anchin catcher the longest second base streak is fourteen years the two thousand one to fourteen rockies from Todd Walker to DJ LA- mayhew shortstop. You've got a fourteen year stretch from twenty to thirty five the red sox. You don't really have. I based like I don't see any first baseman on here with very long streaks saying yeah there's an eleven year first baseman streak but I would have sort of expected that to be a position where you some where these guys. Yeah 'cause you'd expect that it might serve a similar function to left in that as geyser moving down the defensive spectrum they find their way to I and so you'd have some turnover there. Although I guess you know he's still need to their obviously exceptions to this but generally the requirements for your bet there are GonNa be pretty stringent. Maybe that helps to stabilize at some That's interesting it is all right so thanks to Adam for the answers. Thanks to Andrew for the questions. Thanks to BEN FOR THE SONG. Andrew also asked by the way. In what season will the giants have? Someone started in Westfield for their second consecutive opening day so when will the curse of periods broken and boy? I don't know it could be a while. The giants are really in a phase where they could have a lot of turnover. It's not like they have a centerpiece out there. Right now or top left field prospect or someone who might stay there for years. So I'll say twenty twenty. Three saw say they will have different leftfielder this year if there is one next year and the year after but then maybe that will be the giants leftfielder of the future or at least leftfielder of two consecutive seasons so now we can take a quick break. We'll be right back with preachers strength conditioning. Coach Jose Fuskus the happier. You fly Saturday. The laughter is Never Springs along. These racist allies. All right we are joined now by Jose Vasquez who is the Texas Rangers. Strength and conditioning coach. Jose how are you our you? We're doing all right and I'm very curious about what your professional life is like right now because you've been a big league strength coach for quite a while now with the Rangers before that for a few years with the mets. But you have to deal with anything quite like this. No one has and I wonder what challenges that is posing for you right now as you try to keep the players were less in shape and prepared for a season if and when one starts the biggest challenge I would say is that we can't be around them. You know. Even in the off season we can still visit them. They have access to equipment. They have more facilities that they have the ability to do more so not only are we limited distance but we're limited by the equipment and the facilities available to these guys so it's a very strange way to ensure that these guys are are exercising. Wins when some of them don't have places to go. And how often are you communicating with them? In what form is that communication taking? Are you guys doing skype calls like the one we're doing now? Are You texting? How are you communicating advice to these guys right now? We're right now you as a staff other staff we are all been. We have decided as a group. We're all GONNA be part of communicating with these guys to make sure that these guys have what they need you know. Make sure they're healthy. Obviously I make sure that they just to see if they have equipment available to have training partner Somebody that can can play catch with. If it's a pitcher somebody a catch a catch them so as a staff were. Were all right now together and making phone calls making video calls making sending tax sending out equipment. I mean right now today later this afternoon. I'm not only to the new stadium and grab some small equipment and started sending guys tubing and supplements and things like that so they a group effort as a staff to make sure that we're at least touching base with these guys in whatever form possible. Yeah and we were actually initially supposed to talk to you at a different time today and then it turned out that you needed to train a player. So what will that entail? Are you usually doing one on one video sessions or doing group sessions? And what form do those workouts take? Actually a couple of things that I am working on. Not necessarily working with a player is for a staff video video staff meeting to go over the position players so the last few days we've been growing over what we're talking about right now is what are we gonNA do. We're GONNA do it what's allowed what's not allowed. What are we have available to us? Who's who needs what. And so this afternoon it so happened. There's going to be the position players and part of what I have to do this afternoon. To is continued to make work out online. Making videos of work is making videos things that they can do at home and so and also setting up kind of find some of the Pictures Portable Mound Mississippi. If they can something that they could use at home and be able to throw bullpens at home so number things today. I don't have necessarily have a player to work with but I have a few players have to set up on different things I'm curious. How much are pitchers actually engaged in? A you know a regimented throwing program. We don't know how long this delay is. GonNa to last. I think one of the big issues that everyone has is how long it's GonNa take pictures to be ready for the season. One does starting sort of how they're approaching what is proving to be a release strange Break so I'm I'm curious. How much are they actually? Throwing versus focusing on more basic physical maintenance for pitching coach the guidelines that were given they were told to play. Catch six days a week. Monday through Saturday and with whatever distance they can have some guys have field. Some guys have backyards and then tried to set up a bulletin on Tuesdays and Fridays or at least twice a week somewhere so that they at least have some sort of game like that are we sorta got for now or just play cats Monday through Saturday and then try to throw bullpens a week. No more than thirty five pitches. I believe with the number disseminate at least two innings. So that's what we have right now. Yeah so as you. Two guys have different resources at their disposal. And maybe you're not working closely with minor leaguers. We've seen some minor leaguers posting their workouts online. And they're just using whatever they can and doing whatever they can because they may not have much money you're much space available to them with big leaguers. I imagine some guys who've been around for awhile might have their own private workout equipment or facility that they can use others. Maybe not so. Have players been pretty proactive about reaching out to you? And your and saying here's what I have. What can I do or is the direction kind of coming from you? As more of a top down recommendation actually boat you know as you know in any organization business or whatever you have. They were types of people people that a very independent and they're going to do their job with or without you and then there's going to be the ones that are just going to wait on you to tell them what to do. So you know with with obviously the financial structure with with guys those guys that. Have you know that made good money? A lot of these guys have invested facilities at home so to have space to throw nice equipment. You know they they can ride this out for a long time at home and be fine whereas you got the guys that don't have that much money or perhaps haven't invested in a home. Gym Are the ones that are having a hard time so you know the first thing is individuals some guys are just very very independent responsible and then they seek out help right away and there are guys that we have to chase down and ask them. Hey you know what's available to you Do you need help You quit man. You need this. You need that. So it's been a combination of all those things and curious How often your staff thinks they're gonNA be reevaluating the timelines for returning and then how that's going to impact the advice. You might be giving guys about what they should be doing at any given moment. Because I would imagine I've never been a strength and conditioning coach. You can tell me that I'm thinking about the wrong way but I would imagine that you know a two month. Delay might mean one particular approach to training a six month. Delay might mean something very different. So how are you guys thinking about that variability in timeline as a staff yup no a very good point The biggest the most difficult part of this whole thing is when you did on a program on when you're trying to give advice to someone about a exercise program. You have to have a goal a goal in mind then so offseason goes into spring training. Spring training goes into the season since right. Now we don't know starting. It's hard to feel comfortable giving out advice. Hey you're gonNA work out for the next two months and you're gonNA peak at this this month so right now. We're going on no information. So we're trying to tell guys is trying to maintain the level of fitness that you gain in spring training and kind of keep it at a medium pace. It's not quite the same intensity and and and I'm on a work that in all season would be because you know at any moment we might say we got. We're going to start in the next month. Well it not as light as an institution program would be because there's still some building up spider the unknown. There's still some building up to do. Yeah and you guys keep themselves in pretty good shape year round these days at least compared to earlier eras and maybe even compared to when you started doing this job in the pick league so is spring training a little longer than it technically has to be to get back up to speed for most players just in terms of physical fitness and preparation for the season and if this delay does extend for months is there a certain point where you are just sort of starting from scratch or can you just kind of maintain whatever gains preparation was done in for their zone at this year. You guys do stain shit longer. I believe guys know a little bit more about this stuff. And they know that if they're not in shape they're going to be left behind because now it's the normal. When I first started nineteen years ago my job was to guys in the weight room now. My job is to try to get them to do so much so today's Today's player they. They work out a lot. They do more. They keep a level fitness. That that's a lot higher than before so I feel like if They maintain and medium pace medium-intensity putting this program throughout this time. I think they'll be okay. Whatever time we start the challenges that guide the pitchers on. How much do you know how to how to build up their their innings? Because like I said we don't have a starting date and pitching coaches rely on the schedule to bill. Somebody's arm up so that could be. That could be challenging. But from the things that we've discussed and the thing that I have heard about the type of season that we may have that is GonNa be special rules for Patriot. Usage IS GONNA be A more of a college type scenario where. Everything's going to be shorter. Initially you know we're not gonNA need as many players. Were you know we're GONNA have all kinds of substitution rules? That are going to be different. So if they stay they stay the course right now. They should be fine because there. There will be special rules to accommodate for this situation. What would be the greatest potential risk when the season hopefully does start up again? And we'll see how long the training period prior to opening day will be but who would be kind of at the greatest risk or what type of injury would be especially wary of given this long layoff and then trying to ramp up again obviously arms the top of the list. I believe the starters are the ones that most risk because they need the most build up and then from position player standpoint. I believe their legs would be the biggest thing you know. A Lotta a Lotta guys made the mistake that they feel that they run on a treadmill or get an elliptical and they're moving their legs that that's the a sufficient exercising and it's not running on grass is completely different feel or stress on the most than it is on the treadmill so my biggest concerns are are injuries and leg injuries position blues. Hopefully people have been following your advice and engaged in an exercise that mimic something close to actual baseball. But I'm curious if any of the players and you obviously don't have to name them have engaged in any particularly creative forms of exercise that you've had dissuade them from pursuing now not up the right now. No Muscle regards that up called to and the staff has talked to. It seems like you guys are doing the right things I guess. The only concern is the guy that tend to do too much and some guys when they get bored they can. They can overdo it because you know have anything else to do but stay at home and work out so they might overdo certain things so the only concern is just a guy that might overdo it too soon because really we don't have a starting date so you guys remember maybe working too hard if anything but what's really happening and we're all adjusting sort of a new normal of working conditions and I'm curious just for you personally. What is working from home? Been like for you. I can't imagine that that has been a typical experience over the course of your career. Yeah what I guess the to move things that I I take away from this number one visit the time of the year whereas see the see my family the leash and now. I'm home all the time when I'm when I'm with them more than I've ever been spring training and Beginning season if a very challenging time for the family. Because I'm gone a lot. The workload is very heavy so I it's always been hard time with family are on this time of the year. So there's kind of a blessing just to be with them at a time where nothing's going on. I can concentrate on then I can do work. I work out with girls that play sports and so I get I get to have a better quality family time. The first thing in the second thing you know with the technology today with social media podcast and things like this of this nature because of how a lot of assistance and a lot of help. I sometimes I feel inadequate with some of the social media posting videos and program design that everybody goes on Youtube and all that stuff so it gives me an opportunity to sit in front of the computer and do those things for myself and be able to make programs and this morning. I shot a video. I don't know backyard and was able to add it to the team. Builder APP that we're using and and so I'm kind of excited to spend some time in front of the computer and learn. Learn something that I haven't done to this point and last year's so I'm those two things are positive for me. The one thing I do Miss I do Miss Coaching. I do miss being around the guys. I miss being on the staff and you know at coach. Players to coach is not a coach so not not being able to just kind of boring making out workout programs who put online and social media to me. That's not as exciting as being with a guy in the weight room teaching teaching them how to do things so to me that the biggest drawback. And how are you staying in shape personally What are the most effective for cats? You can do under the circumstances. Well you know how this link dot collect a lot of stuff so I got my garage. I got I got. I got kettlebells in my movie room. I got some Jujitsu Matt's at practice Jujitsu so I'm able to get them. The mass and practice drills been teaching my kids so. I mean I get up every morning and and do a little bit of something so the other big change. I guess since you started this job is the way that technology data have come into the game and have really had an impact on strength and conditioning to a lot of teams have sports. Science departments are high performance departments. That are bringing some technology and data to that process. And you just mentioned team builder which we actually got in touch with you through a a representative for team builder. Which is a platform that the Rangers using that other? Mlb teams use and other teams in major sports. Used so I guess. What part has that played in this remote training? And then just in general has technology made this any easier with the devices or the tracking that is now available to players to teams. Yeah we'll -nology in in the strength condition world has been a game changer and makes the ability to communicate and design programs players much much more efficient lot faster. We've been using it for about three years and we've created a lot of work calendars on the program. So you know where we were kind of ready for this. We we have so many workouts on there. That if you don't have to put boom we gotta work out for you and all you gotTa do is just change the calendar on your profile. And it'll appear in your phone. Within a matter of seconds. I had a player last week I would knowing the yard and he called me called me out and he wanted to work out body workout to do at home because they didn't have a place to go and I stopped what I was doing. Got Him not computer. Five minutes later a few clicks of the button gotta a workout. So you can't you can't beat that. Kinda that KINDA SYSTEM. So that technology has definitely helped us you know but in a way is something scary. 'cause it just changes so fast. Every year is different software every year. That type of thing and sometimes when you're working with people you don't have time to work with computers so if I don't pay attention to some of that stuff then I get left behind so this this time. This situation has forced me to sit in front of a computer and learn some of those. Yeah in general. I don't know if you're able to do this stuff under these circumstances. But do you try to incorporate wearable devices or tracking sleep for preparation for workout? Serbia calories expended. Or or any of that. I know that more prevalent may be in the minors. Because majorly guys kind of have an option of what they want to use or not use but has that been helpful for you and has that changed your job in a significant way It's been helpful in that. We can we gather more information on guys. I think we're able to create a larger profile as to what the player is player functions. I'll put it that way. You know the guy. High Energy is low energy than spend a lot of calories. Does he not recover? Well if you're not sleep well as powerful as he is explosive. It's strong so all this technology always whereabouts. Are these all these type of sports times? Technology gives us a bigger better picture. What a hard to player functions and it helps us to hopefully determine what the player needs most. They all need to the ball and catch the ball. And you know that's obvious and do it better. But as an athlete this information gives us a good picture about what are with certain guy you know and and when it comes to because we know so much now. I think the biggest the most important thing for me is knowing where to start and knowing what to prioritize you know in the past we baseball players wasted. They wanted to get a strong okay. Well that makes sense in theory but then you realize that that there's such a thing as too much strength and instead of creating strength creating statements and now you're not no longer flexible now. You no longer move well now you so this information gives us an idea or with this guy we need to work on flexability before we work on strength or at this guy. This guy needs to learn how to take care of himself a little better. That's going to recover more or this guy needs to start all his work with this kind of one up to facilitate this movement and this or science technology gives us a better a better picture and how to how to start it gives you it's Kinda. Gps TO WH-. This player needs to go. If you don't have step one sometimes you start tax that five and then you realize wait a minute. We've been going the wrong way with this guy so we should have been known this all along. So what we know now. We can do that a little bit better. We still got a long ways to go because still a lot of people playing them. This kind of stuff. But I don't know about you but human machine is the most complicated machine there is and I don't care how much technology we throw. These guys are very complicated very complex. But what would this technology? I think we're we're getting closer and I. It's always my hope that the place we owe that we're using this technology for for their benefit and not for their detriment and not try to break them down. But I feel like we're headed in the right direction We just need to be a little bit cautious patient with a little bit of this stuff so that we don't turn these guys 'cause collaborates but I feel like the more information. We haven't a player better job we can do to help. The player achieve whatever whatever he needs so yeah and it has been increasingly common for players to co two off season facilities. Whether it's a place like Dr Line or or maybe somewhere just closer to home and obviously that's been beneficial for some players but from the team's perspective do you try to kind of keep tabs on. That tried to become part of that process and monitor what they're doing. Make sure they're going to a place. That is legitimate and knows what it's doing and then not. I guess contradicting what that place is telling them to do. So that when they show up for spring training suddenly. They're asked to do those things or you find out that they've been doing things that you don't approve first thing I would say about that. How handle all that? I try to insert myself sort of so to speak. I insert myself into the situation because I feel that every program have you exercised a works at some point with some with certain guy in everything works within within in a in its own context and I think that the problem with some of this stuff today. Is You have a program and it works for you now. You start telling all your buddies but you're six five two hundred and fifty pounds and your buddy is five nine hundred seventy and he's left. I ended in your rent handed. And so but everybody needs this program and so that that that's the biggest problem with a lot of these programs. These guys get into is they claim that the individualized stuff from my experience. What I've seen every time guys get evaluated they come back with the same program very very similar and so I try to insert myself in these situations so that I can educate the guy the best that I can when they get into these programs because a lot of times they they really buy in and they get really attached to these programs and then when they realized that it's not working or when they realized that the amount of work that they were doing in the off season now they can't do the same amount of work during the season. Those people that were that were training them weren't are not around anymore and it's me and me and them trying to figure this out together so so. I try to insert myself in those situations. Get to know all the big names in the industry you know. Try to find ways to connect those people because I you know in a way. We need each other. I need people like that because I can't be everywhere and those people like that need me because sometimes I do need to refer people out and to have a network of people that trust. I you know out there so I can have relationships and be able to get this information with it becoming a You know some sort of competition between me and then right so it. It's a challenge. It's growing because these facilities are popping up everywhere so I need to get in touch with a lot more people now than I did before but I started getting myself involved somehow and I think the last thing I wanted to ask I think about the twenty fourteen rangers team a lot. That was a challenging year for you to not for these reasons that because there is just a just a huge rash of injuries that year it was really tough because the Rangers had been so successful and then kind of fell into fifth place in largely because a lot of great players were unavailable that year. And I think you won the Nolan Ryan Award that year. Right from your pierce. Who WERE RECOGNIZING? I guess what you had to deal with and the job that you did but when something like that happens or when it happens the other way when someone like Mike Minor may be comes back from kind of an injury plagued portion of his career and becomes a really durable starter for the Rangers. And you figure something. There is working well. How much do you sort of? I guess you'll responsibility for the injuries that a team does or doesn't suffer. You know if you go through a really rough year like that to you. Examine what you're doing and think I am. I've exacerbating this. Is there something I should be doing that? I'm not or do you just sort of accept that these things are going to happen no matter what you do in some years you're GonNa get lucky with injuries and some years since the opposite will not be not take responsibility for all of it. I don't I don't shy away from the responsibility that has given me. I have been around long enough to be able to evaluate everything in context. Every injury has a story of its own every player that had an injury that year of you know had a situation that was unique to that individual. And you know you know. Fortunate thing is when things are written about a injury-plagued year the injuries it's written in a way that it that it seemed like it was a rash of injuries. I was a group of injuries. Was Yes a number of injuries and what is not written. Because I don't think there's you know time is each individual guy. Had the hottest specific situation. You know one situation. They guy. Winning the corner runs on twisted ankle. Broken there was a guy that came from another team that had a car condition. That this flared up on US under are carrying. Nobody knew about it. You know there was a there was another situation where a guy had something would have shoulder and didn't tell anybody until the middle of the game and so there was a lot of different situations that were unique. And so like I said I take responsibility all those things but I take each individual injury and and evaluate the context. Where come from you know. Was it a soft tissue self inflicted with an accident with when something we knew knew about something that we didn't know about so you know it's a unique situation. I accept that. There's some things that are going to happen when it comes to their relationship that I have with John Daniels. It just goes down on that on that relationship really does he trust my my expertise. Does he trust my to evaluate each situation for what it is. Is You comfortable with the effort that I'm putting forth trying to prevent these things? I might evaluating the problems the right way you know. So it's it's kind of A. It's a hard. It's a hard situation to be in because there's a lot of things we can't control so as long as as long as John Dana. She was comfortable with the things that I can't control. And I'm on my dressing boasting then it gives me peace of mind and it helps me to process some of that stuff because yeah that year was pretty tough. That year was pretty stressful. It was one thing after another and it was one of those years that we had all these grand plans to use all this technology that I have land. Permanent injuries in Sooner this happened and all that stuff was out the window I mean we. We went straight to rehab most fills the situation. It's hard to explain sometimes. Yeah why those things happen but but it just boils down to my ability to process and prevent things that can be you know done something about and those those my general manager trust me and that's what it will gun right. I guess it's easy to make a coach scapegoat. You know if the team doesn't hit you change the hitting coach Fatih doesn't pitch. She's changed the pitching coach. A team gets injured a lot. Maybe change the the train her the strength and conditioning coach so obviously there in Jerusalem didn't do that and that speaks to the confidence that they must have had an you so I was going to let you go but you just raised one more question in my mind when you mentioned that a player was not fully forthright about an injury and that that ended up coming back to bite them. That's something that's really hard to eradicate in the majors. It's just so competitive athlete or so competitive and they never want to give you a reason not to play them or or to take time off but how do you try to create a culture where players do feel that they can come forward and tell you about problems before they become even worse and is that an area where technology can help because if you're measuring certain aspects of players performance than maybe it's easier to detect when something is going wrong whereas before you might have had to just rely on whether the player was going to open up about it or not. I thought on that would be that each player. You need to develop a relationship with them you know. And that's sometimes with some guys. It could be the first hello percents shake and some guys. It takes years to good. Don't trust you so it just starts with trust being able to connect to that player being able to develop a connection with that player that that player knows that we care and we care for them as a person and not just as a player so it just starts with that and then it. It's also our job to I. WanNa say so. I'm losing my words here but to explain the technology in a way that it makes them feel like you know what I need this stuff. I need to find out what I really need to work. On as opposed to These guys are just using that stuff so that I don't get arbitration which is a typical comment that hard over over the years since some of this stuff started coming out so you know I- responsibility to explain what we're doing with these guys and so between those two things up here up there like that's where this stuff lies is you. They they feel that you care and do you have the tools to figure out what they need so if they got like you care and they they feel confidence. Oh man they got this Guy Gender and they got this thing and yeah I mean they can help me and so the more comfortable with you and then there are a little more forthright all right. Well I'm sorry for your sake that you're not able to do the coaching that. You're used to right now. But the fact that you have time to do interviews worked out well for us and our listeners. So thank you very much Jose. This was really enlightening and best of luck with preparing. Everyone for what will hopefully be season. Some point awesome. Thank you for having gone All right speaking of Rangers players who are trying to stay in shape. Joey Gallo posted a tick Tock of himself taking batting practice in what appears to be his luxury high rise apartment. I'll link to it on the show page. But he has a bucket of balls and a t and then a net that he is hitting into and it just says. I'm sorry neighbors for the sound. I guess but it makes me nervous to watch. I guess it's perfectly safe. I guess there's no way that the ball could not go into the net. It's right in front of the T. But Gallo hits the ball so hard and he has floor-to-ceiling windows and I'm just imagining him drilling one of these baseball's through the net and through a window and out onto the street and hitting someone in the head it's very anxiety inducing but gotta make do with what you have you may also be interested in an article that friend of the show. Lindsay Adler wrote for the athletic about how the Yankees pitchers are training and keeping track of their remote workouts quoting from her article. Here this is about Matt Blake the Yankees New pitching coach and he writes that. Blake conferred with other pitching coaches throughout the league. About how they intended to handle the pitchers in their own organizations normally baseball can be secretive and protective at the major league level. Blake said but I think there's a sense of community among the group right now because we're all in this together and there's really no playbook we can look at this. The Yankees decided to put together a document in Google. Drive and share it with the pitchers asking them to log. What work they had done. Each day is different from the typical dynamic during the season pitchers can function semi autonomously on a program. They've developed their organization or independently and typically check in with the coaching staff periodically with the current situation forcing everyone to make decisions quickly and to accommodate a range of circumstances. Yankees. Coaching staff felt. It would be best to have everyone's programs accessible in one place. They kind of go in and kind of have some level of accountability for themselves to write down. What they're doing and kind of see what the other guys are doing Blake said. We have a thirty day log that Kaiser filling out so we can almost crowd source. What our options are for these guys. As far as what they are capable of doing where they're at warm weather or cold weather whether they have access to a facility or not all right. That will do it for today in for this week. Thank you for listening and thank you for supporting the podcast. If already have and for those of you who have not put would like to you can go to Patriot dot com slash effectively wild and sign up to put some of the amount and help keep the podcast going and get yourself access to some perks as have the polling five listeners and Supporters Ryan Reilly Ben Harmon Matthew. Felling Tim Frederick and Kevin Clarke thanks to all of you. You can join our facebook group at facebook dot com slash groups slash effectively. Wild can rate review and subscribe to effectively wild on itunes. And other PODCAST PUTT forms. Keep your questions and comments for me and Meghan SAM coming email at podcast dot com or via the paycheck misting system. If you are a supporter thanks to Palin Higgins or his editing assistance. If you're looking for some reading material the paperback edition of my book with Travis. Check the MVP machine how baseball's new nonconformity are using data to build better players. Comes OUT NEXT WEEK April seventh? It includes a new lengthy afterward. So even if you've already read the book in hardcover or some digital format there's something new for your there. We hope you have as good in a safe a weekend as you can. And he will be back to talk to you. Early next week are now.

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12-1-20 - The Mo Egger Show

Mo Egger

2:02:00 hr | Last month

12-1-20 - The Mo Egger Show

"This is paul. Dana junior and mo egger in studio talking. All things bengals and general. Nfl topics on espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. Hey what's up. My name's malaga you're listening to. Espn fifteen thirty. Thank you so much. I'm glad you're here. Glad halting or juniors here we have A lot of ground cover a lot. And it's we're going to do a lot of bengals here in the first hour. We're not going to entirely bengals here in the first hour. Because i know that i have an hour's worth you can't do it. We have the college football playoff rankings. The latest college football playoff rankings. Come out tonight. Spend some time on that. In the four o'clock hour and the reds off season is set to begin even though it really started more than two months ago. We'll get to that coming up in the four o'clock hour as well. Plus xavier's win last night in overtime over e k. You in the beginning of the ucla basketball season as well. Lots of ground cover between now and six. But paul dana junior is here he is with the atlantic which you can subscribe to the athletic dot com. It's a good holiday gift and make sure you. Follow paul on twitter at paul diener junior. If you get paul athletic you can not only read his work covering the bengals but could also hear his podcast. Here that podcast growl in which is a must. Listen if you're a bengals fan. I texted you about a two and a half hours ago and said de mind. If we don't do the entire hour on the bengals yeah i. I'm sure that was met with a lot of enthusiasm so do some reds a little bit later on. Yeah that sounds good. I could use. I could use a change of pace you. You wrote a piece after the the bengals game on on sunday. That sort of thing spoke to to where i was then and where i am now sort of the meaninglessness of not just that game on sunday but the rest of the season. It was to go today. Man it's a month ago today. The bengals beat tennessee. Titans yeah and often here late in two thousand twenty. We've reference things that have happened before and we go got. It feels like that happened a lifetime ago. That literally feels like it happened in my mid twenty s. Not just the game. Not just the bengals beating the titans but what. That kind of ignited excitement for the second half hope purpose you wrote about that whole purpose. Enthusiasm this to me. Was the part of the season that i was really looking forward to post by schedule. Softens up to get a chance to watch. Joe burrow whether or not he was capable early in the season or not. We all felt like by the second half of the year he's going to be. You're gonna be able to start to see massive improvement chemistry developing that paying off and this team and all of that paying off in winning. And instead i'm trying to talk myself into something about brandon allen or ryan finley. This is where it was supposed to be and a month ago. It was that just feels like it was even longer than a month ago. Yeah it's an it's just like the the fall the fall from where you were because you know they they did. They did what they wanted to do. They grabbed the attention of the fan base. And they did it by stinking bad enough last year. Thanks to last time. They went to miami but they did. Grab the attention to the fan base. They did have people interested. They did have people tuning in. They did have excitement. About what the second half of the season could be as far as a true building block for the future and then to have to watch bengals giants on and understand when stead of that where we are at is just excruciating game. It was too bad teams trying to do bad things against each other. I mean when you had the light critical. Play the game and there's just a dude run free in the flat only to be called back by a holding penalty on the offense. That's the type of game this was an and it's just. It's it's tough to swallow because these games are still important for the coaching staff. And everybody involved but it just it feels so empty because of boroughs absence because they so much had everything understandably so around him yeah and just emotionally like the the end of last couple of years. Two thousand seventeen. It felt like a nice time to eulogize. Marvin lewis tenure now granted. He did come back the following season. But right like those last few weeks to me. Were supposed to be all about. Let's let's marvin lewis done. And so we'll spend some time talking about that in these games just serve as the backdrop to that. He obviously came back by the end of the two thousand eighteen season. It was pretty crystal clear. The team was gonna move in another direction. And so all right games were sort of the backdrop to that and then late last season the games were backdrop to you know. Joe burrow off season of hope of head. I was really looking forward to for the first time in a while watching the bengals play late in the season. Not thinking were going to be in the playoffs. Not not worrying about the math of the last wildcard. Are they or anything like that. But the games themselves mattering the games themselves being entertaining the games themselves having a purpose. And i think that's where most fans are right now. We're robbed of that again. That is so incredibly deflating in the more that happens i think the more difficult it is to muster up excitement over. What's next you. And i were talking in the aftermath last week of the joe burrow injury. And you were trying to be reassuring. There was a game effort by you. Hey come back chances. Are he's going to be okay. They were all facts. Yes no you were you. Were doing your best and i appreciate it but man. It's just the the more you do this. And the the more these seasons end with these huge stretches of games. That don't seem to matter at all. I think for a lotta people. The more difficult it is to to rally for. What's ahead for what's ahead in the offseason for the the mechanics of the draft and free agency and who they're going to bring back and even following joe burrow's progress this offseason. That's this isn't where we were supposed to be. And i know. I said that last week. It's probably not the last time i'm going to say but that's just that's what i'm stuck thinking about. Instead of why they lost the giants or how they can beat the dolphins it creates. I think the thing is it takes us back to creating that relationship between fan base and team and something. That's kind of been an issue around here but had disappeared for the last however long because of the arrival of borough spending in free agency in the hope of of really starting to see things come together because people did really like what they saw over. The course of the offseason had hope for what this season could be. That is now to eight and one and whatever it's going to up and so it brings. That baggage brings no matter what you do in the off season. It brings back that point of contention right like that that you know not that everyone's on board and everyone now sees. I never has reason to believe even if there is. There's there's still that whether that's whether it's keeping the coaching staff or whether it's not you know not believing in the ownership wherever that that stuff is that is most people's craw this time of year it will be that again rather than a feeling of sort of everybody on board. That exciting things are here. In in having belief in in the direction of the organization. So we watch brandon. Allen play on sunday. I'm going to subject myself to that again this week. I guess it's better than than ryan finley can. Can we go back to the season. Why why not get a better backup quarterback or they that all in on ryan finley to the extent that adjust the it made no sense to bring somebody from the outside who you could put in a game and feel confident in and the answer to that is yes. How was all that done by a quarter and a half against washington last week. Yeah that's really the question for me. I mean i don't that does not connect for me. Is that if i will buy what you're selling. If you're telling me that look that we didn't really think we saw the best of ryan finley we think year development and having he can be a backup and feel comfortable to him to go in there and play better and win some games for the next year. And all of that. I i can i can. I can buy that now. He was robbed really a. He's a guy that was robbed of the pre -olutely. Yeah and and talk about borough. He's at least to make all the calls in zooms right like you know. Finley's sorta ultimate dude in the with note to see his development sacrifice which is part of why everyone said getting a veteran quarterback. This year would be a big deal. Right ryan preseason. And so if you're if and i think that at that point to well let's get somebody who's familiar with the system and they. They went and they thought brian allen was basically that signing that people were looking for because they were full. Go with borough and and not really even thinking about anybody else needing to be ready to go in. But yeah. I mean because brandon. Allen is familiar with zack. taylor's precious system. He's a better choice than a guy. Like joe flacco just for the sake of terrible just for the sake of an exam. How's it going. How's it going for him when he's playing for the jets. He's on a bad team. If i said to you you can have one of these two guys to come and win a game for you and also perhaps give some guidance to a rookie quarterback you have brannon joe flacco. I don't really care to have either of them another. He's about him for reason. Look you're not getting russell wilson. Okay right right. You're not gonna trade. Aaron rodgers to be your backup quarterback but if the idea this season was to win games right why they spent all this money win more games this season and you had the distinct possibility that maybe joe burrow's not ready week one. And you're always a play away from the backup quarterback playing to me you would want person. Who's a person who's best positioned to help you win. Football games ryan finley. Not that guy. Why do i know that with the coaching staff said so last week that guy i think joe flacco is but there's a litany of dudes out there that they could have had. That would have been better options that you could put it in feel like right. That guy can win a game for us all feel that way about these guys know they were not. They did not prioritize deposition. They did not prioritize the back of quarterback they did not decide that it was worth spending money on and decided to use that elsewhere whether it was another three to four million dollar piece. Whatever it was that you there signing sufi low. I dunno whatever and so they forgot i played for the. He's about to be back right. he's too. I mean half pretty important injury. That happened early in the year. And so you talk about way or they didn't prioritize it. Came back to bite them right and and you know i. There's one thing. I will agree with that. Zac taylor said yesterday and that was. He didn't get a lot of help. No and i'm not saying that he was great but could you. Could you get a couple guys not holding when they actually complete a pass. So it'd be nice. Maybe maybe like some of your receivers that are paid a bunch of money to actually make a couple of tough catches for you. You know the help help brandon allen out a bit but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean that that this wasn't still a miscalculation and you have to be. That can't be an excuse. It's part of the job to be prepared for that scenario and the fact that you know so to use it as a backup quarterback i. It's it's tough well. You create this scenarios you this situation this university of players for yourself to say to go win games if any number of things happen. That's at quarterback and that's offensive line and that's at any other injuries that have happened at corner or wherever else. Seventeen minutes after three o'clock. He's paul danger. Junior on twitter at paul diener junior is covering the bengals along with jay and for the athletic go. The athletic dot com. And you could read their work and get to the subscribe. Get the app as well if you're a subscriber new You're gonna thank me for that. It's eighteen minutes after three o'clock paula's here for the hour. We're gonna do some reds offseason stuff a little bit later on but let's perhaps get to the only significant question the most bengals hat mills bengals fans have next. I'll talk better next segment. Eighteen after three. This is espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. Just in here with paul dana. Junior talking about the fact that on sunday. If you're among the few thousand. Paul brown stadium. Giants kicked a field goal to go up thirteen to ten and it took the scoreboard operator. Pbs good like ten to fifteen minutes to give the giants credit for those points. I like the effort. I appreciate it. Man look in two thousand twenty up around facts anyway. Why should the scoreboard operator be any different. Maybe it could make a difference. In the game you've worked in scoreboard operation. Not i have a pbs. No yet great american you. What is the biggest scoreboard four. Paul that i did. I did one. This is actually. This story is know. You've probably heard it. I've told her that much time. But back when homer bailey through his second no hitter one at great american yep at the previous year. He had done it. I think it was a previous dungeons and pittsburgh and so in that off season you know. They're they put new things that we put into play wherever and are are awesome organised. John schutte put together. It was like a you know. Remix on california love. It was like cincinnati love and it had famous calls in the background of it and he would play it. It was kind of a fun thing to do. So i at that day i was working the dj kind of just playing the music and stuff so you go through and you plot out before the game. We'll do this here this here this here. Well at the mid eight hours like are will do. We'll do the cincinnati love. They're that's a fun one into good night so we'll do it. That's all part of ahead of time. Well homer bailey's throwing a no hitter. And what does the one thing that you can't do when you are throwing a no-hitter talk about it mention it even think of even look at the guy. Yeah what about play or call from his. Last no hitter over the scoreboard speakers pumped it out to the ball. Literally this quote homer. Bailey has just thrown header in the middle of the song. And because it's part of the backtrack that was laid out in the in the offseason. It's just part of the track of the song and we just didn't even think about that. And like i just froze and looked at john. Healey that me we both just hers. Well just play. I guess keep playing. And then after he thankfully he completes no hitter or else they would have been some responsibility. I'm sure i think it was mentioned. A few times in the po- dusty was in the post game press coverage like i don't know up there the scoreboard there yelling about the no. Oh god they got he got that she got is probably the biggest faux pas that i have been personally part of my favorite adapt ballpark. Were you on the scoreboard room. In two thousand eleven. Then and outfielder fred lewis. Yeah and for his first at-bat as a pinch hitter. Whatever it was is name was spelt furred already so all season i called them for. Yes i bet that was. That was fun for me. And i'm glad you enjoyed it probably just. Did you ever go like ten minutes though. Not giving team a run i now. That's that's automatic. I believe the actual score system. I've seen a lot of basketball games where there's so many points that you know somebody. Maybe it was a three but we only gave the guy to like. It could be tough. Football seemed to me to be pretty easy. Yeah to be able to make sure the scores accurate. Yes and for about ten to fifteen minutes on sunday. It wasn't an when i pointed it out. Just continuing my awesome relationship. Cincinnati chest as responded so favorably to that are when. I talked before the season to to feel good about this coaching staff. Let's just hit the vegas over. Which would be six five and a half and we're going to feel pretty good. There's not going to be any conversation about from zac taylor that sort of stuff. That's not happening now. They're not getting to six wins. I feel comfortable in saying so all right we have to readjust if they lose out. There's eleven and a half point underdogs against miami this week. The dallas cowboys are bag. Maybe they could beat them brandon allen. Versus andy dalton. Guess i think. Andy's better i don't see them beating pittsburgh. I know the The texans are on the string of like as many players as possible being suspended for. But they still i think are going to have to shawn watson and i don't think they're going to win that one and the week seventeen game. You know who knows what the ravens are going to be playing for where they're all going to be healthy but it is. It's it's hard for me. It's hard for me to look at the games individually and say we're gonna win any of these now. I know when you look at it. As a whole maybe they stumble into a win. Somewhere is a two or three win. Finish even with the injuries go beyond just jober. There's a number of turks defense. Joe mixon's not here is going to launch into a conversation where we are realistically entertaining the possibility of zach. Not coming back. yeah i mean. I think it's a realistic conversation. I think it's one that you have to have. I don't think anybody wanted that. And i don't and i don't mean that. In a way that everybody wants their coach to succeed i think they viewed this as a three year minimum thing and the organization does i mean that's what they want it to be. They want him for the next ten years and they wanna give him every opportunity to be the guy for the next ten years. It was the last thing that they would want. But the bottom line is when when when the record is what it is it becomes. It becomes the conversation. It's it's there's just no way to hide it because you worry about the ability to sell it and so you have to sell some sort of change in so whether you're talking about a fall guy elsewhere or whatever but yeah i mean i. I don't think that it happens. I mean inevitably. I think just because of a lot of the circumstances that you mentioned you know i sort of in my this week and bengals this week really outline teams that have had to make this decision that have had first time head coaches with losing records to the first two years in what came next and there are examples of it coming together afterwards and then there are met patricia. And a lot of those where you bring them back and it doesn't but i just think they'll want to see it out. There's enough reason to believe a little. This guy they they like what he was doing with. Borough this quarterback guy to get the quarterback and have them all were together. Sick it out there so i think but i also think that just really puts them back in the corner here and having to legitimately discuss it and we don't know what happens when they start legitimately discussing that and and it's a tough one because you you just it goes we. We've said this. I mean how many times there's just no proof of concept yet and and at a certain point you've got to win some games no matter what is your hand and right now. There's not a lot of evidence of being able to win games no matter what your hand is in no matter. How much arguing about. How bad that is you know. This isn't poker. You can win games and so it's tough. It's a tough spot. Inevitably i think the bengals fabric and dna as an ownership group will win out over almost anything. But this is certainly putting the. There's blowing out zac taylor. And then there's keeping zac taylor and everything else status quo and a lot of stuff in the middle of all that a lot of steps in between so is it. Is it realistic to think okay. Zach could be back but his choice of offensive line coach. Zac sorry we're gonna bring in somebody else. Is it all right. Little luana romo. You've had a couple of years. Maybe we found out why you weren't a defensive coordinator newer available in late february to begin with and they they make a change there. Is it our executive the head coach. But somebody's gonna call place. Somebody's you just. You got enough on your plate right now. Could you see any of those steps or others. That i didn't mention coming to fruition at the end of the season the the fine the fine big name defensive coordinator thing is the easy answer here. I mean i think it is. And i i. Don't you know. I think they'll make arguments for jim. Turner and you know. And i think zack is sort of interconnected with him and you you'll hear talk about the progress. They were making a line and all that stuff that will be part of that conversation. The defense one. There's some really there's some there's just two years of it right and and not a lot of progress in some inexcusable stuff namely the end of games. Indie cleveland back to back really were brutal. Blows for for what you're trying to do this year and at and there's a lot of disenchantment on that side of the ball that we've seen whether was stars whether with younger guys just across the board tell you when the when the moment came for me ellie late first-half call timeout. You collect greg. Were junior run down. The right sideline cute just at that moment. I'm like okay this isn't it and here's the thing. It's the one thing that really they weren't able to do that. Where the lateness of the higher and the situation and be honest zach being inexperienced with not a ton of connections in the league came back to bite them. You can do. You can write that wrong. There are plenty of big name. People that you can bring in and you can you know pay them realize we really need to be to find the same way. They went into free agency like they hadn't before by basically buying it out. You can do that with a defensive coordinator that is the hot name or whatever that is somebody with some skins on the wall you and that's the for so i mean it's just for so many of these teams you know. That's such a huge key. Whether you're talking about san francisco. I mean people love kyle shanahan finding myself talking about him a lot lately because of the situation they were going after their first two seasons and they stuck with him and then they put put it all together. They also had quarterback injuries and got a high pick that helped because of it also their defensive coordinator turn into a head. Coaching candidate and star. And it's some point. That's got to be the thing and i've got two years on my hands of the defense quarter here not being star and clearly not being at least the answer that anybody's looking for any any ability so so i think what you can start fresh there and you can sell that and you can sell a big name. That would come in your defensive coordinator. And i think feel like change occurred and we. We're still buying into what you're doing on offense with borough. We're still we saw that and we were. We were believing in that. And i think there is reason to believe in that but the other side there needs to be some sort of change. So you use there's big names and then there's a big name that might be a good fit or make sense. Does one of those. Somebody lied to the top of the mind that fits those criteria. I don't know. I mean. I think you have to have folks will default patricia. Because he just out. People will default fangio in denver when he gets whacked by something like that happen. I mean yeah if you had if you had somebody who is literally a heck of now. Patricia can go elsewhere. But i i think there yet. There are names like that phillips's on twitter begging to be back in the nfl phillips. Why not why not in la was mcveigh's guy. He was there in zach. Was there with them. They ask familiarity their head coach. Yes i mean. I been a head coach. He's he's shown he'll do his defensive thing and go all these guys all he has a track record of putting out good defenses. Why not you know. Here's what exactly i mean. That's what i'm saying. I mean i think that's the direction. I think you should go. I don't know if they will. I mean there's you could find some. You know there could be a young guy who's gonna take over his first job. I just feel like they really need somebody. Who's who's done this before and has trusted that the players can look to and say we could. He's done this. There's reason to believe in that. I just think they need that. If that was the direction they were to go where i would take that oversee. Like like aubrey. Pleasant guy mentioned. Who i think was talked to in a room. Okay through who is a secondary guy it with the rams who's a really hot name right now to be a defensive coordinator but i think you need a real name and so if that's what the direction at were to go you know i think you could. I think you could sell that. It could feel like real change and it could feel like a fresh start in a lot of ways. I thought it without having to go completely draft. I just have one one person. I begged them to not even entertain. Okay because the jets are going to blow things up. Don't hire that nutball. Greg williams anybody just not that guy right anybody but that did every year. There are guys that have done that. You know that. Have been head coaches. Even that are available but yeah you don't want you don't want new england tires of ballot check because it's just hey above. I'm sure he'd love to come to cincinnati up. your sleeps. work under zac taylor. That'd be that'd be fun. Twenty three away. You want to talk some reds baseball please. Twenty three away. From four o'clock. We'll do that next. Paul deandre junior with athletic here till four until six on. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sport station. It will be food versus fears fat or to win bengals roar into my and look at the hangup bickford law so the dolphins can the orange and black costume in the blowhole. Would you get the cold front. Dan awarded dave lapham coverage. Begins sunday morning at nine. Espn fifteen thirty. The over bengals. Sports update is service of kelsey chevrolet home of lifetime power transportation and guaranteed credit approval from their families. Yours for life. Kelsey shove dot com. Uk basketball tonight. The wildcats play in kansas and the champions classic pregame starts at eight o'clock if you're looking for louisville and western kentucky. That game is going to be on fox. Sports thirteen sixty starting at six. Pm dame takes on eastern illinois tonight and indiana was just dumped by texas sixty six to forty four. the second installment of this year's college football playoff rankings are revealed tonight and ohio state has returned to practice. Hopefully getting set for saturday's scheduled game against michigan state. But if they play that game ryan day who Was going to miss last saturday. If they played illinois is still not going to be able to coach the buckeyes. And also just desmond her name to the davey. O'brien quarterback class of two thousand twenty one of thirty five quarterbacks name to the davey o'brien quarterback class of two thousand and twenty. This was announced by appropriately. So the davey o'brien foundation. Paul deandre junior. Excuse me with. The athletic is here until Four o'clock i don't have any other bengals dive dolphins game on sunday. I i really don't breakdown excited about one thing. There's kevin clarke from the ringer. So i i really liked kevin and and no one was more excited for the dolphins bengals game last year. Then kevin's podcasts. After that game was fantastic piece about tanking and if it's possible tank and it was sort of looking at the dolphins but it turned into the bengals in dolphins in this tank game and him. And i discussing it before. During after last year's game was one of my favorite conversation because we both were just in astonishment of that game how it went in and then and the ramifications of it in the big picture and everything else and it was so so excited gonna come on the podcast on the growler on thursday. We're going to talk about the process of rebuilding through two different totally different ways of doing it. Yeah they'll like rabbit verse the turtle right. It's like well. Let's just do it all at once. Everybody out those. I want to be here. Start over give me all your picks in exchange for it as opposed to the like see what we got kinda believe not gonna trade anybody just move forward but who who will be truly good sooner miami good now but are they set for the long haul. The bengals were the ones that lost that game and got the of borough will see what happens to but it's kind of an interesting concept excited to talk to him about reliving last year and the the process the way these two teams have done their rebuilt but the nuts and bolts of the game. Itself uninteresting to you. Oh this fierce yes. That's fact uninteresting to me. Yeah it's an interesting. You know what is interesting. Is this baseball offseason. And you obviously. In addition to your role covering the bengals you host reds podcast. Cetron rosecrans avenue. Aarp in cincinnati. And you'll do some contribute to reds coverage throughout the course of a season. It's funny because it feels like the reds off season is going to begin anytime now now. Tomorrow's the deadline to decide whether you're a non tender arbitration eligible players. and so. i think we're going to get some news about guys that maybe they don't bring back it kind of feels like if fact i've heard people say well when the off season begins in it's like they haven't played a baseball game. In over two months now the season has been underway. There's been nothing to preclude them from making trades and signing guys doing whatever to make their team better or better position themselves in two thousand and twenty one and yet because of the uncertainties surrounding how many games they're gonna play this year. How much money. They're going to be able to make any playoff teams. There's going to be if we're going to have a d. age. And then just the sort of built in financial uncertainty in that sport. It everybody standing still everybody's sort of waiting patiently which always then do is just speculation and wonder trevor. Bauer is not going to come here and come back in two thousand twenty one. But they're actively looking for a shortstop. Trevor stories name has been mentioned as a possible trade target. That's going to cost a lot of the athletic. Ken rosenthal reported the reds are willing to listen offers for for sonny gray. I certainly can understand why you would listen this. This is what. I struggle with that specifically. Is you get to the playoffs on the strength of starting staff that is arguably the best you've ever had four former all-stars wade miley didn't do anything. Sonny gray is ace on most teams if you trade him away you're gonna get a lot of return. You ain't gonna get a guy like sunny. Greg fills that spot in the rotation. You're also about to say goodbye to two trevor bauer. I think it's going to be a tough sell as as logical as it might be if you do trade sunny and get a lot in return and perhaps figure out a way to flip what you get for a shortstop to come to your fans and go. Hey we're going to be better. Even though two fifths of our biggest strength now gone the best pitcher in baseball arguably in two thousand twenty and a guy who's a bona fide staff as both both gone. But we're going to be better in two thousand twenty one. I i have a heart. Why is there. There's always this need to take things that teams do great and undo them they. I feel like that happens to offer. You're like okay. Well now that this is a great great asset. Let's let's let's let's focus on the weakness. Keep the strength you know. Keep the strength and buy into the fact. That look statistically the lineup that you did put out last year should be better than it was right out at least we were certainly sold that where we not. Yeah and so if you believe that and if you believe what you were selling last year that that lineup over the course of one sixty to play or whatever and should be a real line up at what you can there whatever that means. I don't know where they're gonna stand financially. As far as willingness to go into free agency versus trade. But you know just hold onto your strength as much as you can and find other ways adding believe in what you're selling the money you spent last year on cassiano moose dacas and those in shogo in those will pay off for you and i think at some point. You have to bet on that if you're going to be hampered by budget like if you're gonna deal with budget but you what you have to take bets and you've got a bet on something and you've got to bet on what you spent on last year will pay off for you and we'll come around this year. Yeah i don't. I don't disagree. I was going to talk about this in the next hour. There's there's a part of me though that goes you know in terms of big money for pitchers in this. This applies more to the pipe dream that they would be able to keep trevor bauer. They're throwing a lot of dough in the pitching development in ways that are different new In the game itself sort of. I don't wanna say out liar ish but you know the whole drive line kyle bodey movement. They're all in on that and that's done come cheap at some point. You wanna see significant return on that investment. And if you're spending all this money on you know new and different ways of developing starting pitching that's revolutionary and is going to completely overhaul How you teach and how you train and you guys through your system and then keep them healthy at the big league level. If i go. I'm writing big checks to develop starting pitching and develop pitchers top to bottom this way. I shouldn't need to write big checks to go get guys from the outside very lazy sort of clumsy way of putting it but for your clinging to the idea that just going to throw a bunch of money it starting pitching i would go will actually followed the money. They've been stent which is in development. And that means not as much being reliant on guys from the outside right the one thing i want to say is i really liked the nickname spin cincinnati when i saw that. That's my in depth analysis every like every like really big time group that leads a team to a championship. Needs a good nickname like that with the nasty boys. Were sure spins natty natty. If that's it's sort of goes in with your drive line You're you're exactly right. If it is about develop is that you can take cleveland's done this you can take. We develop pitchers right. That's even they just keep doing and they sell them off for assets because they can just keep developing their i on them and if you you gotta have a belief that that's what you can do i might want to see a little more proof that they can definitely do. That agreed before. I go selling off sunny gray. Which is one of the best or decisions that they have made in the last however many years acquiring him and signing desk. That's being the whole entire sunny day project is is is great and derrick. Johnson is great. I just i just. I want to see that happen a little bit more before you go getting rid of the prime example of why you believe in it. And so i i understand the desire to see the offense better and to make a splash and all of that but i just sacrificing number one core strength. Especially when you're already doing bauer out i do. I do have a problem with that develop developed. Some guys know for me. I am probably more than anybody else. I'm i'm fascinated by the the relationship that the reds have with their fan base and how people consume them and how much they trust them. And i i think over the way things turned out late last season. I think that's taken a little bit of a hit. So we talked about the the difficulty in selling a fan base on. Hey we just let. Trevor bauer getaway. And now we're going to trade sunny right at the same time. Everybody rolled their eyes last season whenever you had mentioned look this team's offense they're just unlucky right it's batting average on balls in play and the longer this goes at some point there's going to be regression to the mean these guys are going to score more runs balls are being hit hard right now. They're being hit right at people and over the long haul that's gonna change and so in two thousand and twenty one. Offense is going to be better. Just because they're going to be luckier. That's also going to be a really hard sell. It may be true. That may be the case. My guess is it will be. My guess is offensively. You will see guys on this team have better two thousand and twenty one numbers then two thousand and twenty because there are some guys with track records who were statistically not as good as they had been and luck had a lot to do with that but as somebody who's just always kind of interested in hell. People buy things zac taylor. Can you really sell zac taylor on people your number three. I don't think again can really sell folks. You can't sell them on hayward leading to the great rotation get away. Okay fine but you also think you're going to have a hard time. Selling folks on offense is going to be better just because we're going to be luckier. But you i mean there's are certain point. It doesn't matter what folks are willing to buy. It's what will best produce wins. And if i think if you think that that is true that the luck turning around on offense is what will best produce winston do it because people will care people will people just want you to win. And whether whether they're buying it or not i don't know i. I tend to think that if if you buy that in yourself and you really think that then good then run with that then own that thought and go win games with its whether whether people are buying it or not because people just care about winning and finding ways to win i think you know you can't you can't bend over backwards to please. Every wish and desire of the fan base all the time you know you're right except what they did in two thousand nineteen was a reaction to a bottoming out of season tickets and ticket last year. They badly want to sell some this season. How many they're going to be able to. How many games are going to have. They badly want to this year and so to a degree that does drive at least on some level their decision so it was winning. Yes that's what drives but winning winning means. I watched them win. Then i go back. They've very much would like for you to go before they start winning. And i mean that's that's reality and that's what they wanted to years ago people will go to games people especially program we allowed in the ability to finally go back to baseball games. People are gonna go. And i just think i just think you gotta you gotta have ownership over over your thought in this market. Two years ago they had their lowest attendance and thirty four years. Just so they're just going to rush back in a bad economy if they win if they i mean. They started winning this past year barely. Look you could see it. You could see it for two weeks. You could you could. It was enough to not to make them exciting. They had a cy young winner. They had pitching staff. That was really the whole pitching development thing to believe in deir johnson. Everything else they had spent money in the off season on guys that should be able to hit granted. It ended the way it did and i understand. That was two weeks it was also sixty games. So but i'm saying i there was they were. They looked and felt more real even in losing games at times last year then they had it all there so much more to buy in them last year. Then there was anything since two thousand thirteen fourteen. Whatever it so. I do think that there is a seat of that. I don't think that. I don't know i don't have the pulse of the fan base as much as you do but i do think that there is a there is a planet seed of that you know. Things are moving in the right direction and believes that this team can and will win. Yeah i don't know. I just i. Maybe i'm jaded by the reaction to the postseason which let's face it that the folks who chimed in allowed us to the ones who we're going to be the most unreasonable i just i i first of all i'm i'm not entirely sure that the moment fans can rush back. You're going to have people like you. And i just want to go back to a baseball game. You're going to have those folks. But i think the folks who will come back when they win they will come back when they actually see winning. And i think you're going to have a hard time selling somebody in the offseason. Hey here's our plan. Here's what we're it kinda worked last year we hope. We're luckier offensively or going to cut some payroll. Because that's just the reality but by the way can you go buy a bunch season tickets. I mean i just. They'll have some shiny new pieces that they can. That will be part of this parents. Playing music say they will. I hope i yes. I i don't disagree with that. But that's gonna come at the expense of something and i have a feeling that we're going to be people who focus more on what it comes at the expense of than what they get and that's not the right way to do it. I'm sure it's not people who will do that. They'll spend just for the sake of spending is saying parents play music so we have to go see next week audio. Sawday energy covers the bengals sometimes. The reds athletic the athletic dot com. Make sure you follow him on twitter at paul diner junior. Terry nelson's gonna join us Four thirty uc's opener is set for tomorrow against a lipschitz. We'll dive into bearcat basketball in just over thirty minutes on. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. It will be versus touchdown or to win bengals roaring demand looking at hang up big law. So the dolphins the orange and black costume in the blowhole. Would you get the cold front. Dan ordered dave lapa coverage begins sunday morning at nine on. Espn fifteen thirty the over. Hey this is. Espn tipping thirty. So glad you're here. Thank you for listening. Terry nelson in about twenty minutes guy. We get the twenty football show yesterday at twin peaks in westchester. If you miss that show it's my blog at espn fifteen thirty dot com slash mo if you if you went out and said the your wife I i'm gonna go out and spend about four or five thousand dollars on like a basement theatre. We're going to trick it out. We're gonna finish it. We're gonna by state of the art. Tv we're going to buy multiple sets we're gonna have every streaming service unable to be able to watch every single game. We're absolutely going to blow it out. We're gonna build a bar down there we're gonna man cave it up. I want to invest in his basement. Tv's all over the place. So i could watch football every single saturday and sunday. I wanna be able to watch game. We're going to get every subscription known to man. We're going to go all full-scale sunday ticket. I want to be able to watch every single game on their own televisions. And she said yeah. That's cool. do it pump money into that thing. You can watch all the games here and then once you did that you said yes. Now i gotta go get uc and bengals season tickets and going to post up at the bar and run a big bar tabs and go out to watch football games. Your wife would say well then. Why did we need to spend all this money on this home theater system on sunday ticket on goal on on all these sports packages all these streaming services all these screens. Why do we have to have all that why you have to have this. Tricked out partner basement. If you're just going to spend a lot of money on season tickets and you're going to go to bars and watch games and run up big bar tabs probably wanna know so when it comes to the reds in the pitching situation right now. So the trevor. Bauer is not coming back. Oh you don't like it. Read said the best pitcher in baseball last year and they made the postseason in large part because they had a great starting staff and the best starter on the staff was trevor bauer. Now you're going to say to me. Well they didn't win. An overwhelming percentage of his starts and that is true but down the stretch in september. There were a of games that it felt like in real time. They had to win right. And trevor bauer one them. Go back and look early. September wrigley field. They take one of the shorts the night before. Trevor bauer goes out there and he's dominant against the cubs that doubleheader against the pirates which jump started the the two week. Run to the postseason. Trevor bauer the first game. Which was the walk off homer tyler. Stephenson trevor bauer was money in that. Start and then the start on three days rest against the milwaukee brewers that last wednesday gbp and really kind of felt like a must win game after. They lost the night before he was awesome. That night they win. They major reason. Why teams in the postseason but think of of what. This team has invested a lot of money in pitching development. I don't know how much money kyle boaty makes. but he's on the team's payroll the dude from dr line. They have really gone all in on pitching development. This has been a huge focus of what this team has done away from the field not necessarily out of public view but certainly not front and center. Let's overhaul how we develop train. Teach prepare and care for pitchers making a big part of our brand. How many times over the last year or so. Have you read about reds or listen to a podcast about the reds and you hear about kind of odeon drive line. He doesn't stop and for good reason. They've they decided to make this a big part of what they're doing making that a big part of what they're doing. I'm sure has not come cheap. And you're seeing at every level. They've had assistant pitching coaches and they're doing really the organizationally the way. They're coaching instructing developing carrying pitching say significant manpower investment to significant financial investment to significant branding investment. Much of. that might not matter as much to you. So then why do you need to spend big money on a starting pitcher. That's not a part of that. Drive line pitching development investment that you've decided to make right. You're spending all this money over here and this is going to solve your decades long pitching problem. Then why do you gotta spend a bunch more money over here. My analogy probably wasn't the cleanest but nonetheless. I think you get the point so when it comes to. How are they going to. How are they going to account for the loss of a trevor bauer. I don't think it's as simple as well. Make one hundred green the guy. That's a lot to ask of any rookie even dude. Who was the number two overall. Pick one hundred did not pitch in competitive situations last year at least in pitching baseball games beyond what was being staged pasco park. He did have tommy john surgery. There's nothing to suggest that he's not going to be a very good big league pitcher but if the idea is simply just slide green and trevor bauer spot. I'm not sure about that. But if you're balking at the idea that the reds are going to cut payroll and let the best pitcher in baseball get away. And perhaps even though. I don't think this is going to be the case. But perhaps even trade away sunny grey zone or ship. The people running this club and he go. Well wait a minute. We launched into this thing was all about developing pitching and pitching that you've developed costs a lot less than pitching you gotta go get from the outside so i'm paying all this money. I'm doing this huge investment. We're doing this huge overhaul of pitching development. Then we should be developing pitchers and we shouldn't need to overpay to keep somebody or overpay to get somebody from the outside or continuingly have to build our rotation with guys that didn't start their careers here which nothing against what they did they had. Maybe the best rotation in my lifetime this past season but neither louise castio or sunny gray or trevor. Bauer started their professional baseball careers. Here there were all acquired from outside organizations. Now that's not to say the reds can't get a guy from the outside to fill a spot. I read the name danced rarely again. Which would i guess. Sort of bring things full circle for him but it but if you're paying if you've gone all in on pitching development and being revolutionary in different avant garde and you're doing that at significant cost and again not just financial but significant cost. Why didn't you gotta go spend a bunch of money to go get starting pitching elsewhere. That is maybe not the best and most efficient way of looking at it if you're trying to win but in this economic climate which you can't get out from underneath this economic climate that can't help but be a factor right. Hey we spend all this money doing this. I don't have any more money to spend doing that. Especially if doing this. And that are both designed to achieve the same thing. What i've decided to spend a lot of money and pitching development teaching overhauling our system. I gotta start to see results and we're not waiting four five six years for those results. So you know. I am to me is is is kind of interesting. You're reading probably a lot about the reds pursuit of a shortstop and the name. Trevor story has come up a bunch which i mean. He would legitimately be their best. Shortstop since barry larkin was in his prime there's every reason one him even even if his numbers are skewed because he played courts field. There's reason to him but they're they're in a place right now. If the idea is keep everything you like about this year's team intact and add to it. Chances are that's not realistic. It would be great. And i'm not saying they should trae sunny great. I don't want them to. Nobody wants them to ovo whatever they did get them. Return would be enormous but for a team small market team in this climate. They have no idea how much money they're going to make this year. They lost money last season. We don't know what the rules are going to be this year. We don't know how many tickets they could sell. We don't know how many games they're gonna play that they're not just going to add that maybe you wish they would and maybe deep down inside they can but they're really in a position where i think we're going to have to reconcile ourselves with the very distinct possibility that it's not gonna be like last offseason in which all the reds had to do to get better with spend money now it's going to require something else. It's gonna require assets. It's going to require human capital it's going to require them perhaps. Pulling from strength to fortify a weakness. Shortstop was a weakness. Offense top to bottom was a weakness. Frankly defense was a weakness. It stands to reason. There's a good chance that if they're starting staff it's a pretty decent group of prospects at the upper tier of their organization. They've got some young player capital. Not just prospects were already playing in the big leagues. I think that's the mode they're in right now. So if you're going into this and you want to be like last year where it's just get dudes from outside and all it does is cost money. That's not mine anyway. I don't think that's realistic. That to me was the beauty of last offseason all. They had to to get better with spend money. That's not this year. So if we're going to say no to trading every prospect or say trading every established player or say no to cutting into a list of dudes that has a pretty enviable at the top of the organization. I don't know how they're going to get better. I don't even if it's go. Sign a free agent. Go pay didi gregorius. Chances are that money is gonna come at the expense of somebody else that they'd have to figure out a way to cut loose and perhaps get something younger than return. Four seventeen after four five one. Three seven four nine fifteen thirty eight six six seven zero two three seven seven six asamoah fifteen thirty on twitter terry nelson coming up in about fifteen minutes college. Football playoff rankings. The second set of college football playoff rankings. Come out tonight. I don't think anything's really gonna change. I've sort of changed my mind about. Ucla playing this past weekend. I've a question about what the your response is going to be. If you love the bearcats. What your response is gonna be if the answer from the college football. Playoff committee is the n. word. We'll do that next on. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station inc presents football brought to you in part by of john's pizza on. Espn fifteen thirty. The official home of the hammer a papa. John's pizza right. Now i'll tell you. What terry nelson in eleven minutes on uc basketball. I college football playoff. Rankings come out. Ohio state fans have got mad at me on twitter for no reason. All i've said is what's what's the the number of games that they would Miss and and look hopefully played michigan state this week. Hopefully they play michigan. Hopefully they they play in the big ten championship game. I i have no reason to not want those those things to happen but if if they would only finish with four games and the added game that every big ten school is going to get as. What's what's the cutoff that you go. You know what this team the college football playoff selection committee as a group has no minimum. Right there's nothing. There's no minimum games. You have to play these mini games or your eliminated but each selection midday can have their own personal criteria. I'll be honest with you. I don't know that. I'm completely sure what that criteria would be for me from uc perspective. You know last week we were entertaining before the cancellation became down. We were entertaining. The possibility that temple game wasn't going to be played because there were there. Were just some things coming out of philadelphia. That would suggest the temple was not going to be in a position to play. The bearcats had some positive covid nineteen tests and so the game didn't happen and my initial reaction to that was well. You're not going to gain that much by playing temple. Anyway you're only going to be dimmed you're going to have to beat them by a lopsided margin so no big deal no game no big deal. I've kind of gone the other way. Because i think the one thing that cincinnati was gonna possibly have going for was an abundance of games. You could say what you want about that schedule. your in. you're in a situation where the the game against the power five school you had was blown off the schedule knocking to be able to play nebraska. They tried they tried really really hard to get any number of schools to play them. It didn't happen. They ended up sliding army. In the austin p. game was already there they just moved into later and then he play your games. it wasn't because of lack of effort But the one thing they were gonna have. Ideally was eleven games now this assumes they win all of them and that is a heck of an assumption to make because the tulsa game is not going to be easy and what is most likely to be the tulsa game the week after that and the title game is is not going to be easy but the one thing they were going to be able to point to is look nobody else went eleven or no not even byu. Nobody else went eleven now but still going to have more games if they played ten and again this conversation's mood if they don't win. Either of their last two or both of their last two. I should say but you haven't as many games as possible to me was was only going to boost cincinnati's case as opposed to somebody that didn't play as many games and maybe had one loss a lot of have sort of looked at it this year from the standpoint of well if bearcats don't get in the season and right now they're on the outside looking in and they need help but even if they get some of that help or all of that help and don't get in the college football playoff it is going to be not even a reminder but it is going to prove that a group of five school can never make the college football playoff. There's to this whole season from a g. Five standpoint would apply this to byu. But i think mortar cincinnati just because they're ranked higher and it's worth mentioning. Byu's not a group of five conference. They're not in any confidence. But if if cincinnati doesn't get in this year or coastal carolina. Somebody like that does get in this year. Then it goes to show that a group of school is never going to get in for me. Not the first time i've said this. I've been operating under the assumption all along that are group's school is never going to get in. Because i think you saw enough evidence of that when ucf didn't make the playoffs in two thousand seventeen in two thousand eighteen so this is just the assumption. I've operated under which means that from the uc perspective. Judging them by their ability to compete for a national championship is just never been something that i've done. So here's my question for you if you are. Uc football fan five one. Three seven four nine fifteen thirty and eight six six seven zero two three seven seven six if the playoff selection committee leaves them on the outside looking in. And i'm not even talking about with things standing where they are but let's stay and has more games get canceled. Let's say florida does lose to alabama. Let's say that the domino's that have to fall do fall. Let's say that the texas and gets in ahead of them despite not being the sec champion and playing a fraction of the games that cincinnati does and the bearcats are on the outside looking if the message the college football playoff selection committee says is never how much of that affects your interest in uc football for me. The answer is none. I think there's only a handful. A tiny handful of college football programs. That you've legitimately follow and talk about and root for thinking about national championship mark. Stoops has done a really good job at u. k. Hates our show but he's done a really good job at uk. If i was a kentucky fan certainly i would claim deep down inside to the belief that maybe one day. The wildcats can win the sec. Be top four team and play in the college football playoff but just watch for that program thinking that that was a legitimate realistic goal. It just sounds harsh. It's it's not and it isn't for most schools power. Five rutger's is not going to play for a national championship. Maryland is not gonna play for a national championship fund story. This year. heartbroken for michael panics. Happy for fans. The hoosiers are good this season or at least have been good this season. I don't think you watch indiana football talking about them. Winning national championship conversations really reserved for a handful of absolute upper-crust schools and even within that upper crust. There's been such a huge separation in this era of clemson and alabama versus. Everybody else that i it. Just it's not something that i spend a lot of time thinking about when it comes to uc football or would if i rooted for almost any other college football program i judge them by do they win conference championships which let's be honest. They haven't won. One never had one of themselves since entering this league. are they having winning seasons. Are they playing in the best ball games they could possibly be. Do they take care of their own shop. Do they play an entertaining brand of football. Which i think they do. Are they taking care of their own business. And if the answer to that is yes. I'm more than satisfied as uc football fan. If i'm during a bunch of noncompetitive games like tommy tucker ville regime only lad one losing season but it was the number of games that were blatantly non-competitive blatantly non-competitive in and outside the league. Neither were acceptable. I'm looking for far more competitiveness. An extraordinarily a disproportionate number of wins versus losses. And then how a committee places them to me. It matters but doesn't matter as much as i think it does to som- it certainly doesn't affect my interest level doesn't affect my appreciation level doesn't really affect how i view the program leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to the conference but you see can't control what conferencing you can't shoehorn yourself into the big twelve or make the big ten taking done work that way much. Maybe we wish it did so. How does the college football playoff committees whims day affect your level of interest in the football program. If the answer is no. Because i've had people say this to me. Well if they say no then. We can ever win a national championship. So then what's the point. Well maybe the exception of two thousand nine went undefeated and didn't get in the national championship. Hasn't been a part of the uc football conversation in the over one hundred years. The program has been around. So i'm not gonna let the college football playoff selection committee saying gee five school is never going to get in affect my interest level at this point would being told never affect your level of interest in the football program for me. The answer is now there's room for you to weigh in at five point. Three seven four nine fifteen thirty and eight six six seven zero two three seven seven six. You'll hear travis steel sounding pretty blunt. After last night's xavier overtime win over. Third straight squeaker for the musketeers. We'll do that in the five o'clock hour and we we talk a lot about decisions and zac taylor. Paul zac taylor absolutely should be judged by what happens over these next five games but decisions matter for zac taylor. They do for luke fickle as well. We'll do that in the five o'clock hour as well but first. Uc basketball team is set to open up season. Tomorrow against lipscomb. Terry nelson will join us. Talk about the cats next on. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. You've been listening to football. Matty presented by rdi corporation on espn fifteen. Thirty the official home of the bengals twenty four minutes away from five o'clock this is. Espn fifteen thirty on mojo egger. Your phone calls are ahead. We are here till six. Uc bearcats basketball season. Finally begins tomorrow scheduled. a play. lipscomb tip off is going to be at five o'clock. The game is going to be on seven hundred. Wwl w i will be filling in for dan. Hoard alongside terry nelson. Who joins me. It's been nine months since we've talked. It shouldn't be the case. What's going on man you tell me. I think the last time we did a game we were in virgin islands like this time of year or two and as i stare outside at the snow. I've i've now you've made me in. A bad mood should be should be thinking thoughts. I get to see you tomorrow. We get basketball now about where we were a year ago. This tour right. There's there's so many questions about this season this. This team's gonna take the floor tomorrow. What do you want to know about this squad by about seven fifteen more night. All what their identity is you know. Are they going to press for court. Are they going to get after it. They're going to be scrappy. they're going to be selfless the ball. Gotta move from left to right. I wanna see if this is going to be one of the traditional hard nose. John brennan coach chain. That plays balls out and doesn't look at the score. You know you have to referee. It's sort of a park and let them know. Hey it's over it's over. Watch their own teams and how you know things like they were just overmatched with certain times and they just kept calling away and coming back from big leads and blown teams out going away. That's what i want to see this going into. Last season we heard a lot about john. Brennan system and i saw the implementation and execution of that system. When when when john was a northern kentucky and i saw it in bits and pieces last year that didn't involve running up and down radical recklessly. The bearcats averaged about four more possessions per game last season than the year before and yet it felt like the personality inherited. It was sort of a square peg round hole. Sorta thing were the pieces. Didn't exactly fit a lot of new guys this year. There obviously are some very good returning players. Do the pieces fit better for the way. John wants to play offense this season. He didn't get coaching manager of the year. Because this wasn't a team he was managing that squad from last year didn't really implement his system he had to re craft it And put the ball in the hands of jaren. He wanted to run the entire time. Coast brennan dead. Jared ran selectively when he got a rebound or you know he would push it up freight train every once in a while but the foot was hurting so it was more of a controlled pace. So it's one of those things where You know you you you wanna see some up tempo style and we hope that you actually get it this year and i believe you are going to get a good team have keith. Williams says its best player. He's going to be the most athletic and he's gonna put up some shots and they'll run some things for him at the end but i. I think it's going to be one of those things where you'll have. Maybe seven guys averaging between six points and fifteen point so yes you'll have somebody who is the best score but at any given time somebody going to take over the game and make an impact where it looks like. They're going to be the best player on the floor early last season. I thought chris vote did a very good job of keeping this team. Afloat passing out a double teams things like that as the competition got better. He had a hard time against a more athletic front courts. It felt like opposing defenses adjusted to him. You know he's talked about playing injured over the second half the season. He's a second team all league guy which suggests he could be. One of the ten best players in the league cannot be the case this year. Yes you've gotta get lateral movement within the paint. You don't need to be sprinting. From you know pensioners three point line defending guys on the cold. That's just not what he does. But his inner Paint movement from block to block hands ready catching looking opposite for free point shooters. They're going to double him at five more songs. Since last year he would have been number four because and an season being cut short but the number four in the country and field goal percentage chart nearly sixty nine percent from the floor so coming into the scouting report he gets a couple of quick baskets. The double is expected to come. Say double team him. He's gotta be able to locate the sooner that opposite because some of those guys are not gonna be able to create for themselves but having the double team makes the games easier for freshman. And you're going to have a bunch of unproven guys on the floor is the best thing you do get a wide open. Look the thing that i enjoy. Most about last season was watching. Trae scott fully evolve into the sort of the gary clark light version that we had talked about maybe a year or two prior by the end of his senior season. He was doing everything on both ends of the court. He brought a lot of energy. He was a good defender. His offensive game developed. And i kind of looked. At last year's team is it was trae scott's team so emotionally and then more mechanically how do they make up for the void that he's left and you can't do it for one person. 'cause that was trained was amalgamation of great leadership philosophy years. You know his first two years. He was absent six seven minutes per game off the bench and it wasn't was junior year. He got his senior year he just bust on. The scene was playing basketball as the season got cut short. So you look at the two best players chris. Volk people If there was a house fire both get burned down. Because nobody's gonna yell for the paramedical the firetrucks. It's quiet in there between those. So you gotta find other guys jeremiah. Davenport looking have a breakout season. Been putting in the work. You got cut short last season year. Look for him. My adam's worth has assert himself as leader. The point guard. No matter who's on the floor is normally the person who voices the most either extension of the coach. She's gonna take the beaten from the coach and john brennan tough on the point guards mcconnell suffering his own guards Bob hugging point guard. It's an extension of the coach so leadership is going to happen. Come from the two of those freshmen. That's on the floor leading the points or mica. I just don't see burly those two nine. So now what what. We knew guys seven of them including five freshmen work. In the most immediate impact be made among players gonna make their debuts tomorrow. He's a he's a beast. He calls himself a point forward. You're talking about a guy that let us seem virginia to a final four switch teams in highschool goes the next year and win the state championship. When you the best player on a team in high school and you get the double team and you still are average plus twenty double figures and rebounds and says you know passing the ball guys and you lead your team to a state championship. There's something special there now. It's gotta develop in the collegiate level but if his mom is any indication this guys go. She's like in the top five in twitter like all he doesn't get much likes or anything on her post but people are watching and listening and they'll watch this guy. Qatari is the big one. Wanna compare him to trade because it's the natural progression. He's going to be in that position. Trains going to be a tar is going to be one of those guys that can grab the rebound bringing it up penetrate under control. Check it out to shooter. Get opposite rebound put it back up also not one of the guys but mamadu mama june have been chomping at the bit. Almost in the way that trace got was for two years. And i'm ready. I'm ready and he had flashes of it last year but this year i mean. There's nobody on the roster. Nobody in the league that can do. He kickball rains before like a deer. He's tall he's long can guard all five positions on the floor. He's great at the top of rent. Three one in its own trap. We have the bearcats and finish shoot threes. And don't so you can put it all together. The understanding of the game. Look for him then he could break out here this year. So yeah i was. I was going to go there next because there were there were times. Sort of cindy the second third of the season when he would come in and replace chris vote and i just i would feel better with mama do on the floor and then from a more tangible standpoint. I think that the last game of the season feels like it was seven lifetimes ago but against temple. Here's the difference maker shot it. Well rebounded blocked a couple of shots. And i remember his his his first season with the program. The two thousand seventeen eighteen year where they were loaded mick cronin even saying look. This is going to be a quality college basketball player. This is going to help us. One day obviously mixed not around to see it. I went into the offseason. Last year is premature is it was. I went into the offseason thinking a lot. About how mama. Dr can make a leap coming into now. What's going to be his redshirt junior season. He was that good at the end of the year that i think he can have statistically and otherwise impactful junior year absolutely. You remember the south florida the game before you know he. He had a great game coming into that one and then he goes in the temple and really shows like okay. This guy is ready to take the next step and so when you saw that going along with trae knowing that you had crispell to start off then you had a different type of energy coming off the bench. They were excited going into conference play and then they got cut the kobe but i just think mama do what he can do in how he can make up for a lot of the things that he may not understand for four years in the in the program. Two years in this system is she should have leaps and bounds. Because he stayed around all summer he worked on it is. He's worked on his tiny his. His post moves his face the basket. He's just he's ready now to make serious impact. By this time of year ago they had played seven games. They haven't started the season this late in decades against each other. Give us an idea from a player's perspective. How on december the second. How badly you are chomping at the bit to play somebody in another uniform. Last time they did this game. Gail catlin was coach. They started was the coach and tex winters. They'd founder of the triangle offense coach long beach state. That was seventy eight thirty nine so if you think about it already coming into this game practice is you know. They're they're going at each other. You're getting feisty. They're getting tired of hearing the coaches voice. you know. The leaders are tired of seeing. The thing was tired of seeing the freshman mess up and everybody has to run for the freshman's though it's one of those things where you better have game or it's going to be some in the locker room Looking forward to a man. It's it's been a long way. We'll see you tomorrow night. Thanks so much terry nelson tomorrow. Five o'clock and lipscomb fifth third arena. Unfortunately no fans but still gonna be awesome to have the bearcats back. Obviously that game. Cincinnati is only before the skyline. Chili crosstown shootout. On sunday. it is twelve minutes away from five o'clock five. One three seven four nine fifteen thirty eight six six seven zero two three seven seven six. It's it's popular these days to point out how to things can be right at the same time. Even though they are diametrically in opposition to one another and that applies to the bengals. We'll get to that coming up in the five o'clock hour as well plus your phone calls and some more college football and you'll hear travis deal being brutally honest a lot to get to on. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sport station mean every sport has its own champion since away from five o'clock took a phone call daring yesterday. We're doing the The tony in mo- football show a twin peaks and a guy comes up to me and he starts screaming at me that we should take more phone calls. I wouldn't say screaming is probably putting it a little bit. Not doing it adjusts inaccuracies. Their fake fake fake news. But he was emphatic. He wants more telephone calls on this recent weeks. It's been we've had a lot of guests right lot of guests and then offer love wednesday. We had the holiday. And i'm not here tomorrow can be here. Tomorrow can brew so you have that to look forward to and then i'm back on thursday but we during football season lot of guests lot of guests and then yesterday not so many guests. No more phone calls so All right fine fine. We'll do our best. Tearing allows turns pantomime. Somebody taking a phone call. So let's do that and talk to stu. Hi stu just sitting here doing a talk show. How about yourself burger man. I'm out here. Maysville kentucky. How's how's everybody in maysville. I'll doing great man. We all listen to you down here. Love the show really. Everybody in maysville listens a lot of people man. You will be surprised. Let's move to maysville sports fans. I i like it sort of mine. I'ma kentucky football fan you know lost interested in college football even though they're on the up side of things the the local cincinnati team. You know in the top of the rankings. I believe in my mind and eighteen playoff with a lot of problems Love that they went to the fourteen but it didn't solve much. You still see the same four teams you know out of ten teams in there. You know the power five conferences this would help alleviate that and get some get some you know things in their out of the power five to help with that. But i don't. I don't know that it would like certainly if you if you expanded it. Let's just say they double the size of the field right. Certainly there's there's more slots and there's a greater possibility of a group of five school getting in. But i think people talk about this under the assumption that they would sort of leave one of those spots every single year to a group of five school and. I don't think that that would be the case. I don't think it's like in two thousand eighteen. Ucf finished undefeated. They didn't finish in the toppy. So judging by that math they wouldn't have made the eighteen college football playoff in two thousand the following year. Twenty nine thousand nine or two thousand eighteen. I'm sorry. ucf finished undefeated. They finished eighth. So they're one spot away from being possibly excluded. I think the way we talked about this is well expanded to eight and that would give us that would give at one spot to a group of five school well if they designated a spot for a group of five school. But i don't know. I don't know that there's any guarantee that expansion would mean a guaranteed spot to a group of five program. I this thing is run by the power five conferences. They want as many of those spots as they can possibly give power five conference schools. And so i'm led to believe that there's no guarantee that a group of high school would be allowed it. It went by doing that. You could see a lot more power five teams in. Which would i don't know. I just think you know a team going undefeated. Cincinnati went undefeated this year. That they should have a shot. And it it's upsetting sometimes as a fan. I guess to a degree. thank you. it's upsetting is not the right word again. I'm i'm a football fan. If they go undefeated and don't get in. That's what will i do. I think i'll be able to make a case if a certainly of texas i'm guessing ahead of them or a team that's only played five games. Yes but in a normal year. It's how it is. It's not the most nuanced way of putting it. That's that's how it is. This is a creation of power five conferences. Six million dollars go to a powerful to each conference that has a team in the college football playoff. Obviously that's six million dollars. Only four teams. So twenty. four mil. Keep that twenty four mil among themselves. Follow the money. So i'm led to believe until i see otherwise that if it's up to between a undefeated you see team in an sec. School they'd like to keep that money in the sec. Six million dollars to another sec school. There's already one other as school in. It's gonna be twelve million dollars. We always talk about expansion as if all expansions going to mean a group of five school gets in last year memphis finished seventeenth was the highest ranked group of five school. If i'm going one eight guess what memphis making it. Two thousand seventeen. Ucf was twelve. Two thousand sixteen western michigan was undefeated ranked fifteenth two thousand fifteen houston was ranked eighteenth. Now if you're slotting one spot for a group of five school yes all of those schools would have made it but if we're just going through a well the only one that would have made it. In the college football playoff era would have been. Ucf barely as number eight in two thousand eighteen. It's five o'clock. Let's talk about the bengals. Zac taylor and decisions next. Just what day. Guess what day. It is bland. bland. Getting rid of them the stuff. You're not going to get if i have been running my own board for a few days Let's see my name's melissa this is espn fifteen thirty. By the way we've been talking about college football a few minutes ago. And the acc has announced that notre dame's game against wake forest on december. The twelve has been canceled. Which means the irish make the acc championship game by default. Now notre dame was probably not gonna lose to To wake forest. But we talk about these these cancellations and games not being played needing teams above them to lose if you take away games or fewer fewer opportunities for for them to lose the fighting irish will advance directly to the acc championship game. A cfp rankings. Come out tonight by the way those are carried live on. Espn radio which we'll have. I guess we'll have from seven to eight. We have the uk pre-game show with kentucky and kansas. Battling tonight the big blue sports network begins their coverage at eight pm. So you'll hear the you'll hear the first part of the college football playoff rankings. And then pretty good college basketball game. Tonight is the wildcats. Try to bounce back after being beaten by richmond on Sunday so we a lot this hour. You'll hear travis steel after last night's game and can i just. I'm just spend a few minutes on what seemingly everybody has. An opinion on in college. Football will do that at five. Forty five it's going to come up with a more creative way to tease that. We got a lot going on here. So bengals dolphins on sunday right and the game doesn't matter and it's a relevant and all the counts. This week is joe burrow surgery. Go well and he's going to be okay. And how long is it going to take him to recover. And then rehab. And he's going to be on the field week one and that's all anybody cares about to be honest with you. That's the thing. I care about the most and so the rest of the season is irrelevant. Right exact taylor is going to come back for a third season. And just right. Well look the backup quarterback situation as undesirable as it feels to choose between ryan finley and brandon allen. The quarterback situation didn't just happen right. The bengals this was not an arranged marriage. Or roger goodell said. You're stuck with ryan finley and brandon allen. Those are your quarterbacks. That's what you have to choose from. You must choose between those two. No no no. No no the quarterback situation. The backup quarterback situation is the result result of decisions being made by the way also really quickly clemson. Florida state game is not going to be rescheduled. So essentially we're going to get clemson. notre dame. Those three teams are being cut off after just nine league games. But anyway the brandon allen ryan finley thing is a result of decisions being made. The decision was made that after joe burrow ryan finley was the backup and then down the road. They were gonna bring in brandon allen and bringing a player without at least entertaining the possibility that he's gonna play you. Add somebody to your team. I don't i don't care if it's a starter. I don't care for some offensive player. I don't care if it's a quarterback you add somebody to your team because on some level you're comfortable with them getting playing time in a game that you need to win right. That's that's why you do it. You don't draft ryan finley thinking he's never gonna play you dr ryan finley thinking he will play and not that he's gonna play garbage time minutes and games don't mean anything that hey one day he may have to start and as as much as brand allen was brought here as a contingency and isolated from the team virtual reps and on the practice squad. You added him to your team. That of all the other possibilities out there. He's the guy that best represents a chance to win if you need to use them and you never know if you're gonna need to use them especially in a pandemic year so where they are with these. Quarterbacks is the result of a choice now. is that choice. One person's said just do tobin jusacc taylor just like no. I'm guessing a collaborative effort. So what i'd like to do here is spend the next five weeks. Assessing the decisions made by this franchise. Right we do that with the draft right if you're an exact and your draft picks continually stink. We go all right. Well we judged your ability to draft. It's not very good. we're gonna find somebody else. Do tobin's had his successes. But there's there's been a lot of failure to man and well you don't five consecutive losing seasons with these successes outweighing the failures. It's been the other way the failures of out way the success and so it's completely fair. Completely fair to scrutinize do tobin and wonder. Is this the guy who's really gonna lift this franchise to an actual winning season. And maybe a postseason. Berth and perhaps having to kind of team that could compete for championship. Recent track record would suggest no and duke. Tobin have a hand in the decision to basically leave the quarterback room after joe burrow bereft of anybody. Who can help them win the game. How much did zac taylor have. A say in the makeup of the bengals quarterback room after joe burrow joe burrow was. That decision was made for everybody right that that decision was made for them the. Nfl has a system. I think drafts are dumb. Quite frankly they reward incompetence. But that's the system we have joe burrow was rewarded to the bengals for sheer incompetence. They didn't really have to do anything other than just ensure they got the name. Roger goodell on draft night the heart thing to do is make decisions about. Who's gonna back them up and as much as we dismissed backup quarterback i've watched a look around the nfl. And i see some teams that are using their backup quarterbacks. And they're they're staying afloat san francisco forty niners come on orleans saints. Come to monitor. Not sure why the philadelphia eagles didn't come to mind after watching carson wentz last night. But that's their problem. They made this choice. So this this idea that. Hey look i just forget it. You can't evaluate zac taylor. You can't evaluate anybody based on ryan finley and brandon allen. That would be the case. If the bengals were forced to use those guys those guys were thrust upon the bengals. But they weren't. They chose ryan finley and they chose brandon allen. We judge people. You get judged on the choices you make right you get judged especially if your job is to make critical decisions as it is for zach as it is for duke by the way they used to be a pitcher in baseball. Called zach duke. Those are decision makers we judge them based on their decisions they chose. They made the decision. Yeah you know. What after borough finley alan. Those are the guys. We're not going to hold them accountable for the results that occur based on those decisions really. That's about how it's supposed to work by the way you want to know why so. Many of us are fans of luke fickle. Especially right now. It's the obvious. The program's been turnaround. They're winning a bunch of games. I'm gonna watch them get talked about on tv tonight. They're bona fide national championship possibilities. That you also notice his decisions work. He made a decision. I wasn't completely on board with. I'm riding or dining with desmond ritter and i'm not just talking about this year. Last season there were times. I'd watch does plan. It's like luke. I'm not sure man. Let's let's give ben brian. An opportunity talked about it last year title game and he played dez after. Brian had played the regular season finale. They didn't win. The football game look has been steadfastly loyal to desmond ridder. If you don't follow uc football closely. I'm telling you thick or thin whether he struggled whether he's been okay whether he's just been able to run throw what whatever it's been. This dude has been steadfastly loyal to desmond rhetoric. You and i should both hope we one day work for people. Actually i kinda do. Who are insanely loyal to you. The way luke. Fickle is to desmond ritter. Let's see that's paid off right desmond's getting some legitimate. Nfl draft buzz. He's in the running to be the conference's offensive player of the year and the team is undefeated and they are throttling people. That decision paid off. I judge luke fickle based on decisions. Some of the decisions are pretty obvious. Hey why don't you go code you go recruit cincinnati once you go recruit some areas here that produce good football players. Why don't you go recruit at some of these high schools that crank out guys who are going deep. One being recruited by power five programs go recruit there. That's that's not a tough decision to make. It somehow escaped. The mind of senator tupper ville down there in alabama. But okay the hard choice. Though i think is you've got a bunch of quarterbacks. Got some guys packed a guy in ben brian who has played before and i know there's practice evidence to suggest that ben. Brian is nowhere. Close to as good as desmond. Ritter is but he made the choice desmond. R- is going to be my guy. We judge him based on. The results looked fickle. Is one of the best coach in college football or being talked about as being one of the best coach in college football because of the results of his choices. All right so we're not going to have these people to bengals to the same standard right imprinted. Don't give anybody here a pass. Joe burrow getting hurt. Don't give anybody a pass. And it's not even necessarily the results of the games although beat be nice to eventually judge this franchise by the results of the games. Be great to be able to do that one day. But okay fine. If you want to say well there's an endless line of excuse makers for the bengals that i hear from all the time that we'll talk about the injuries but the divisions really hard and You games non stop five. Take all the excuses. Is this team's ability to win completely neutered. Because they don't have joe burrow that means. You made the wrong decision. What comes to your backup quarterback. And if i can't judge you by wins and losses i'd like to be able to judge you by your decisions. So we're just throwing ryan finley and brandon. Our backup team is rendered useless but by the way rendered useless washington and new york dreadful teams. They're gonna play dreadful team a week from sunday in dallas and play dreadful team in houston and a couple of weeks now not going to have will fuller dreadful teams or just run. Rest restless season is rendered useless. For you would. Maybe because at the end of the year. I kind of wanted to feel good about the front office direction and the coaching direction. So i really going to do that. I felt good about the choices they need right. Now i'll feel all that good about the choices. They made a backup quarterback. So hell yes. We should be judging them based on what happens between now and the end of the year. And if you don't wanna make it just about wins and losses. Let's see if they got it right with finley and alan. And if you're gonna tell me that mo- don't even worry about it. They got it wrong. With and allen and guess what had happened there should be a new coach and there should be a new director of player personnel. Nineteen minutes after five o'clock five one three seven four nine fifteen thirty eight six six seven zero two three seven seven six and a fifteen thirty is hey. You can hit me up on on twitter. I have a couple of questions about one local story when national story. We'll do those between five and six o'clock and travis steal from last night. I love puff. The dragon are just huffing. Puffing fluffing i love it all bill walton. jason bonetti. Is that from today very good. Did we need bill wanting to give his confirmation that he likes to puff no i. The bill walton thing. I think he's entertaining but if that dude's called a game i care about if i'm he's on a lot of those he's in maui right. Is he actually in maui. Bonetti is not. i don't think he's there but anyway like if he's calling it he's calling. It goes a lot of pac twelve games. And i'll put those on late at night when i'm doing stuff and if it's like arizona. Ucla and its bill walton. And i have no stake in the outcome. Awesome if it's bill walton. And it's a game i care about and i wanna know stuff about the teams and i want you know nuanced discussion of strategy. Especially this time of year. When i'm looking for information on new guys i love bill walton. That's not the guy that i want my game like if i if i like i'm all for the entertainment part. I watch sports to be entertained. There's not enough people. I think who do watch sports to be entertained. Sign me up bill walton. If it's a game. I don't care about like if i really want to know about these two teams. I want to know about these players. And i want to know about the strategies and i want some insight into what the coaches are thinking with. The players are doing. I don't want not my guy anymore. And the thing is there was a time back in the day when he was doing. Nba games on nbc. He was awesome and it was calling guys out he would criticize. And now it's to me. There's a little bit of a gus johnson to him now. He's he's become known for being zany so he's going overboard to be zany. It's like with gus when he got famous for being gus. Now it's like every moment he's trying to dude. It's it's ten to eight. Were in the first half relax. And i think we're getting that with bill walton but that play by play do jason bonetti. That guy's good dudes like on the list of dudes who are going to be like the next buck. Nance guys like that. Jason bonani thank you for bringing that into my life. Taryn twenty one minutes. After five o'clock we are late. This is espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. Football brought to you in part by. Cme pipeline and sewer repair and fly skyline chili on espn. fifteen thirty. The official home of the bengals made reference to the maui. Invitational being played in maui. And it's actually being played in asheville north carolina. Although i will say this having watched that i watched you yesterday watched him today. Today was a disaster. They were thumped by texas. They do a really nice job of positioning it. As if it's in maui. Lots of shots in and out breaks from the beach in maui ashville but but bill walton and jason bonetti are calling the game. We've got college basketball tonight on. Espn fifteen thirty via champions. Classic is the uk and kansas game. We'll be in indianapolis. Michigan state and duke will be playing at duke but kentucky and kansas live on. Espn fifteen thirty. Pregame starts at eight pm. That was part of locks of the nights. Just go ahead. I took k. You minus three and a half for a few different reasons. You can listen to the podcast of cincy three sixty. If you're interested i think kentucky is gonna play tonight. I just don't think that that number is big enough. Doesn't kansas going to cover it That's not an overreaction is just it's kentucky's inexperience showed on On sunday about that for analysis. What do we do now. Collin collin you're on. Espn fifteen thirty. What's up going now. I'm just sitting here doing a talk. Show hey so. I guess my thought on like the bengals is. What is the advantage of winning at this point and i you know i'm all about winning. I'm a lifelong fan. I wanna win but you know at some point you know. It doesn't move the bengals to win anymore games because they have a bad team and they need a good traffic and i would say the higher the draft pick better opportunity. They have to trade it for more drastic. Not saying they would do that. Based on track record. That would be my hope. Yeah there's there's validity to that If you're winning games it means players are playing better. Many of those players are going to be here next year. Wouldn't you like to feel better about them. I feel great about our offense. I mean aside from the offensive line I'm not really worried about that Defense i think maybe you need a coordinator there and you know. Obviously injuries is hurt him this year but i mean i think they need. They need improvement. So i mean. I i feel good about the offensive skill positions. Obviously aside from the backup quarterbacks. Five i you know i think you look around the league and there's not many things out there that have a backup quarterback that's gonna win them or five games. I'm looking for a quarterback me four or five games looking for a backup quarterback taken one. Well i mean. I play away right. That's the story of the bengals. Play away yeah. Look the idea from me. Getting a backup quarterback isn't that he's gonna win four five games. It's that i can put him in the game and be okay. They don't have one of those guys and on the grand scheme of of ills that plagued the bengals. That's not it's probably not even on the first page but it does reflect a decision. That decision hasn't worked out. I'd like to feel better about the decision. Makers because everything you said about the roster is true chances are the head coach is going to be here to feel better about his decision. Making the person in charge of overhauling this roster has just overseen now his fifth consecutive losing season tobin kind of like to feel better about his decision making at at some point. You need to start to see a payoff in the people who are here and yes. They need better players. There lies the problem though right. I mean you're not changing mike brown katie blackburn and at the end of the day. They're the ones making the decisions on the decision maker. So sure so you. You're right you but you've got to work within those parameters you are absolutely right so you talk about okay next year. Wanna get better. Players want to nail it in the draft has duke tobin nailed any of the last five draft. Maybe this last one. Maybe the most important decision was made for him right in large part because he built four consecutive losing seasons when they went out of the days of the dolls no i mean like when they drafted andy dalton and asia green. I mean they had you know one of the deepest rosters in the nfl. I mean he was talking about you. Know one of the best gm's in the game at that time and more and marvin lewis was talked about as a coach of the year candidate back then. But we've moved on you lose your equity at some point you're right man duke tobin dot and deserved a lot of credit for his work. Then but i'm more interested in what you've done lately right in phil in philadelphia. They're they're dumping all over. The head coach there in the coaching staff in the direction that organization because the roster is a mess carson wentz has regressed and the display. The doug peterson showed last night was awful. That guys won a super bowl. That's a front office that just three or four years ago people were saying men. The rest of the league should emulate that equity is gone. So do tobin's equity should be long on them. I mean i agree with you. I just think that at the end of the day you know people that you know all the cards. It's just what we've had and it's what we're going to get and you gotta have faith in them making better decisions to replace tobin or to replace taylor and i just think track record is shown they. They don't have the best track record. No on that on that sadly talent will agree everyday. The phone call man. Thanks so much. Heat i certainly i certainly don't disagree with the the take that. Hey it's it's better for this team to lose long-term if you if you specifically make it about getting the best possible possible players in the draft and there's obviously it goes without saying a lot of value in getting the best possible players in the draft. But i was kinda hoping and look the joe. Burrow injury has thrown a of things off. I kind of wanted to see the payoff for the decision to make zac taylor the head coach. I haven't seen it yet. Are we just going to completely dismiss the idea that we could see it. Because joe burrow's not here and if the answer is yes that says a lot about zac. Taylor says a lot about the players. That zac taylor and duke. Tobin acquired and the coaching staff individually is developing the winning culture thing. So i've heard about well winning culture winning culture and then last week it was. It's reported that well actually. The culture kind of stinks. Now whether you like that reporting believed that reporting take it with a grain of salt. Don't like anonymous sources think it's coming from players who have suffered graves whatever certainly didn't portray a visual of a happy harmonious winning culture right. Some point doesn't the winning culture have to include winning twenty six minutes away from six o'clock five one three seven four nine fifteen thirty eight six six seven zero two three seven seven six and a lot of this is frustration with the fact that we have to go right back down the road we were last year of just hoping they lose tanking talking about who they're going to take in the draft and who the next. No savior of this team is going to be and i didn't. I didn't wanna do that this year. Tell what am i hearing right now do you. Do you hear something. That's weird weird. There's like a guy talking about football my headphones. But i don't think it's coming from you nonetheless if only i can hear it no big deal. It's twenty six minutes away. we're eight days. Been weird weird for a few different reasons. Twenty six minutes away from Six o'clock five one three seven four nine fifteen thirty eight six six seven zero two nine three seven. Seven six. Play some travis. Steel being brutally honest about is a team. Last night i have a question about the most talked-about person in sports over the last couple of days and maybe about significant cincinnati. Sports figure. Who's no longer a significant cincinnati. Sports figure. perhaps we'll get to him as well between now and six on. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. You're listening to football in the neck brought to you in part by rivers sportsbook on. Espn fifteen thirty. The official home of angles before christmas and all through the holy. That's played out hit it. Now it's coming back jobs. Football pinks really quickly. Just here's here's what was happening here in studio now our our room here is jason to fifty five k r c which is a radio station. You got Brian thomas and got glenn beck and rush limbaugh and sean those you know political talk and so there's nobody in that radio station. Gary jeff walker recording something and the speakers were so loud that i was hearing them. Despite the fact. That these walls or soundproof. And i'm wearing noise cancelling headphones. I don't know why it had to be that loud. I probably do it the same way but nonetheless if you heard that at all if that was coming through that i was hearing too if you weren't well then that's what i was td. Sports update is service of kelsey chevrolet home of lifetime powertrain protection and guaranteed credit approval from their family to yours. Four life could kelsey shove dot com college football playoff rankings. Come out tonight. I'm not expecting a major. Change am interested in how the chairman of the college football playoff selection committee answers questions about teams now playing as many games as were scheduled. That sort of thing should be interesting this evening. College hoops kentucky and kansas. In the champions classic the pre-game show will start at eight o'clock tip off nine thirty on. Espn fifteen thirty. If you're looking for western kentucky and louisville by the way that game is gonna air on fox sports thirteen sixty and she'll be tipping off in just about twenty minutes. Dayton will open up at seasons tonight against eastern illinois. Indiana housed today in asheville in the amount of vacation. Sixty six to forty four. I think that would be it for your college for your local sports. Frankie amaya by the way this sucks yesterday was announced. He had been called up to the men's national soccer team. He has tested positive for covid. Nineteen and so those plans are on hold. Can i am going to ask if i could talk about. Vanderbilt's kicker do that in a few minutes. First let's go to louisville and chat with scott scott you're on. Espn fifteen thirty. What's going. Hey mo how are you. I'm wonderful what's happening. I don't know if you've heard. But they just announced at the acc has cancelled the notre dame wake forest game and the clemson florida state game with basically in lock. Still men so that that's not going to hurt either one of their chances. But here here's my question. Within wondering about the covert eligiblity rules basically giving everybody a free year cincinnati's looking at our seniors and by and large other than wiggins. Everybody's kind of you know the seniors being the way too late round of maybe free agent is it possible. Or how much seniors do you see. Possibly coming back next year. Especially with you. See schedule with indiana dame Being beefed up to really have a load of raw string. Take a run at it next year. I am going to bet that the overwhelming majority of those players aren't gonna come back. So i'm i'm gonna guess that james wiggins all go and we have the kobe bryant's gonna go and against the james smith who's almost my age just kidding. I'm gonna guess that he's gonna go. I mean they've. I think they've i think they've got a lot of seniors. Who are just going to choose to take a whack at the nfl if indeed. They have pro aspirations. I also think you're just gonna have kids who are just ready to move onto the next phase of life. The i don't know. I don't i don't have a concrete answer that i'm sure there's gonna be some players who are back but i'm also sure they're going to face you know i think especially on defense what you've seen this season as that. There hasn't been enormous. Drop off when you know. They've played subs either because they've decided to work more guys in or when games have gotten lopsided you know from a from a gambling perspective. There haven't been many backdoor covers because uc's twos have been as good as the other teams twos and threes for that matter. Have been good as as good as the other teams three. So that would tell me that if you're going to stick around for your your next senior season that you're going to face a lot of competition for playing time. There's also a scholarship count. How many players are coming in. So i tend to think the impact of that on seniors is going to be relatively minimal. What i'm sure there will be a player to who stays and you're right. They have a chance not only to be pretty good. But get a chance to play notre dame a us on the schedule and perhaps they can answer some of the questions during next year's season about playing a school from outside the group of five that they couldn't answer this year. Yeah that's what it'll be curious to see especially like you said it's along the line of the offense and defensive lines and obviously the the probably the eight million dollar question is what are they going to do quarterback with whether desmond to continue with him being already having a redshirt. Brian and then The kid from wyoming. So it's it's it's some good problems to have but it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Yeah it's it's nice. It's nice when you're talking about quality seniors that if they come back they're going to face competition the play because that's not the case you know with everybody being given granted the extra year. That's that's not necessarily going to be the case that the majority of schools great i appreciate it. Scott i appreciate the phone call desmond ritter. It's interesting eric ed home. Who's a good. nfl writer. That i follow wrote a piece and it was a draft piece and it mentioned desmond ritter and then talked about dot dot dot if he comes out of if he enters the draft this year or goes back to school. That's not something. We were entertaining two months ago. It's funny because last year around the bowl game. There was a lot of speculation that ben bryant might decide to leave knowing. Okay if i can't get a shot. Now i'm of sandwiched between prater and ritter raiders stranglehold on the job as firm as ever via. Soon he comes back for his senior season. I've got to think he's going to have a more firm stranglehold than he's ever had during the offseason. Evan raiders grooming will continue. I wonder what that might mean for for ben but it is it is a. It's a nice problem to have and you know look the clemson. Fsu game got cancelled or postponed about a week and a half ago. dabo sweeney. Who's mad about everything. He was upset about that to a degree. If you're clemson. What point is there to play florida state. You're not gonna necessarily get credit for playing them. You're already in the top four. Why put yourself at the mercy of another loss. Acc would love to have. Even though notre dame is only a football member for this year would certainly love to have two schools so not that there's not significant health and safety issues here and by the way the miami hurricanes are still in this mix as well. They've played one fewer game than clemson. But there are still sitting there with just one loss came against clemson. So you're doing if you're the. Acc why would you want your teams that are playing with a chance to be in the college football playoff. You don't want notre dame to play wake forest. You don't want clemson to play florida state. Correct me if i'm wrong. Clemson still has a game. This weekend against virginia tech. The florida state game is not going to be postponed. So they're going to cap those schools at nine notre dame and clemson still have one game to play. Notre dame's game against a wake forest didn't happen they will wrap up their regular season against syracuse. They will mall because the orange terrible miami still has to to get to nine games two games remaining and that's against unc. Who played pretty well against notre dame over the weekend georgia tech. So you know. I've asked about possibly ohio state playing few as five games if we took the michigan state game away which they are preparing for and we took away. The michigan game michigan has paused. All in person. Football activities. I guess they met virtually today. If those games that had happened they played that extra game that every big ten school is going to get and they're sitting there at five and ask questions about. Why do you play these games. You know if you're in the top four and you're not going to get punished if you don't play then in fact it makes all the sense in the world to not play as many games as possible your clemson notre dame who doesn't have any losses. Why why why do we wanna play anybody. If you're notre dame you're you're one remaining game you have is against a school that if you lost them would probably completely punt you out of the top four because syracuse is awful. Why play why. Play to a degree for the acc. Now there's a lot of money to be made by playing the acc championship game but y play if it ends up being notre dame clemson and if clemson loses that game they're out and we're just canceling games all over the place. Why play the game. Both schools are in the top. Four right why. We're not gonna if we're not gonna dock teams when they don't play and we're not talking about by weeks not gonna adopt teams when they have game by the way you could. You could argue. This could apply to uc because they didn't play this week. If you're the acc why wouldn't you just say another clemson. They're just finished one. Two in our league and notre dame one undefeated clemson lost one. Game both are safely in the top four. Remember clemson's not even fourth-ranked ahead of ohio state. We have two teams in the top three. We're not going to punish anybody for not playing cool. we're done. call our names on the twentieth. There's no minimum. There's no requirement that you have to have championship game actors. A chance ohio state could still be in the top four not even playing the big ten championship game or kind of a kind of a mess. Kind of a mess. I'm not saying that's anybody's motivation. Here but it is sort of an ancillary benefit blow as many of these games were in. We're good we're safe and look that's that's the logic that a lot of people have applied to ohio state right. Hey we're in the top four. You can't punish us if we didn't play michigan. State then play maryland. Michigan state hasn't been canceled. We're not gonna play. Can't punish us if we don't play these games. Cool then a. I'm in the top four. I'm not gonna play. Why if you're clemson. If you're going to sail states in the why you wanna play any more games especially if the game remaining which would be against notre dame in the conference championship. Game is tougher than any anybody else has fund system. We have this year. It's ten from six time for a ten from six. Espn fifteen thirty. Cincinnati sports station. Ken grew is hosting this show tomorrow on thursday. I won't be on the radio at this time tomorrow. Basically competing with myself filling in for the Great dan hoard calling a uc and lipscomb. Tomorrow afternoon slash early evening. So i if you wanna listen to that pre game at four thirty on seven hundred wwl w or you can listen to ken. Host my show. And if if you listen to this show on not here still get credit for that how that works. let's see let's see. I kind of got off on a tangent there and i think i confused myself with talking about games not being played in college football and being way to conspiratorial story in college. Football this weekend was sarah fuller than bill. The soccer player who became the first woman in the history of power five college football to participate in a game. And that's great. Here's it's not even my issue with the story. I think it's just more of an issue with just the era were in. It's not enough to say that's kind of cool right. That was my reaction. That's kind of cool. Some weird unprecedented circumstances created a position for her to be able to kick off the second. Half vanderbilt's game saturday. I i looked at that and said neat. It's not enough to do that. In this day and age it has to turn into this huge momentous thing where now becomes a debate point where it's either the greatest thing that's ever happened to female athletes and it's going to open this huge door for girls who grow up thinking i can play division one. Fps high level power. Five college football. Which maybe does happen. But it's like if you're like me and you have a daughter and he didn't show your daughter the video of the girl of the young lady attempting to the kickoff for making the kickoff for scrubbing the whatever you want to put it. Well then you weren't paying proper respect. What was happening at the same time. You didn't have to be totally worth all about it either. You didn't have lampooned kick. She got a chance to do it. But it's also if you do raise the very fair point and it's fair and not being a caveman not a chauvinist. What would happen if she were in a situation for. She was being forced to make a play tackle in. Somebody's way what happens to the person on the other end of that transaction especially the injure her. It's like you're not allowed to bring that up either. Why can't why can't just be face value. Sarah fuller kind of cool to go. I'm done i'm back at it here. Thursday i have a good night this. Espn fifteen thirty.

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