19 Episode results for "Fraud."

What is Synthentic Identity Fraud?

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

37:08 min | 2 years ago

What is Synthentic Identity Fraud?

"Welcome to ruin back guys day radio podcast with fraud expert skip buyers. This is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best fraud prevention solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team and held to prosecute criminals. Now, here's your host skip buyers. Hello. Everyone woke umn to ruin a bag is day radio. Hello, hey. I'm skin Myers. I'll be your host today. Welcome back. It's been exciting week spoke to a lot of different people this week in fraud. And as always, I really really appreciate your feedback. Your emails and anything else that you can send me regarding questions and how we should really keep leading the way with the fraud education awareness that we're all here to provide and really helped ruin a bad guys day, and I sincerely appreciate your feedback. And all the great great comments that are coming in through guys. So if you're expecting one of those scripted the nila reality world looking type podcasts. Well, you're at the wrong place. This is sometimes an unscripted for real from a real practitioner seeing what's really going on in the real real world in trying to piece things together. So that we can all work together partner collaborate. So we have a convergence of. Ideas in synergies around us together. Collectively all the experts in this industry coming together to ruin a bad guys day. I can't say enough. How important is that? When we do truly work together. We can really make an impact for the good. And that's really exciting news. Anyway, I want to go out there. And really celebrate something right now, the really been working on some some products that we've been working on here, Rooney bad guys day radio, we have t shirts some put these for men and women. We got some coffee cups with the Rooney bad guys day radio logo. So somebody who have been asking about that. There's a website now, I'll have it in the podcast notes is through t spring products. But those products and all different colors shapes and sizes, and the all familiar and very popular. Runar bag is day radio. Coffee Cup is available now at fifteen percent off. That's right right now, a lot of people been one in some more products than I really want to get this off the ground and going in real really love to see some of you wearing the t shirts or having fun. Drinking out of that great looking coffee mug at your home or office. But right now fifteen percent off coupon coat that we developed called. Thank you, just thank you. Because I do thank you for everything. You guys are doing and the variation. You're giving me to continue doing this podcast. So right now fifteen percent off all of our t-shirts all shapes and sizes men and women we got hoodies and the coffee cups, and we're still developing some other products to that hopefully make this a lot more fun and enjoyable so right now fifteen percent off those t shirts use the coupon code. Thank you at checkout. The actual link will be in the podcast notes. Do you have any questions feel free to Email me at Bruna bad guys day had g mail dot com. So also to thank one of our sponsors this week. And I can't say enough for this company that it is really involved in the fight against fraud. And that's dash lane dash lanes password management company, as we all know, they have some other competitors. But dash lane is one of the best pass. As word management companies out there right now and right now dash off for thirty day money back guarantee for their dash lane premium package, and that's only four dollars ninety nine cents per month. That's build annually. And what they do they take, you know, they take your password to make it easier for you to Storting use it among abroad breath of different websites. So what they say is get the next level visual protection for simple safe, browsing at home work and everywhere in between dash lame premium combines unlimited password storage, all sinked across all your devices with dark web monitoring in AVI. PIN for wifi protection is the easiest solution for auto filing those passwords and personal information. Combine with Vance tools that you'll never ever want to be without. So that's great package. Dash lanes linked to that great deal right now four dollars ninety nine cents per month. What a great deal to enhance your. Security and your passwords. It's unlimited password storage, they provide benefits sync across almost every device instant formed in payment auto feeling capabilities again, I said before this dark web monitoring, which is great with personalized alerts. VPN this available for your wifi, protection and everything secured file storage capabilities. So I would highly recommend you check that out to see that fits your particular business or personal needs. Thank you dash lane everyone. It's been interesting week. I can't believe how much news has been coming out about synthetic identity frauds. Let's talk about what is synthetic identity fraud or synthetic identity theft. And so in the last week or so I've been watching all the news, and there's been so many articles in focus on synthetic identities. And I can tell you right now, I'm working with a couple of large companies as we speak involving big cases of. Credit application fraud and credit card fraud involving the term or what we suspect to be related to synthetic identity fraud. So somebody or a group of people, and what it looks like again, we've talked about this and other podcasts is that we have some sort of international criminal enterprises out there, stealing Americans identities in some form, or fashion and using it to create a synthetic identity. So part of this podcast were to look at the new article that was just released by the legal executive institute in their part of the Thomson Reuters company, but a newly published white paper synthetic identity a new path for government fraud is a question Mark there asked the question, how do you catch a thief who doesn't exist? That's a great question. The paper that was published by Thomson. Reuters examines the growing problem synthetic identity fraud or whatever one's spoofing here. Talking about short that up is S. I F Rosza relatively new form of identity theft. And. Which criminals combine pieces of real data in fake information to create an identity entirely for the sole purpose, obviously to defraud company, so and it's almost impossible to trace. So a few podcasts ago told you guys back in December. I had my identity hacked, the information's been slow in coming working with enforcement. I'm also part of LifeLock's personal Lert system on any suspicious activity with my credit file, and that's how this case got started by being communicated or called by them to alert me about suspicious activity on my social security number on that particular case what it's looking light. It looks like it's a hybrid of synthetic identity. The bad guys who were attempting to obtain credit at a women's clothing store. National clothing store, use my social security number but other fictitious or bogus pieces of information. And that fits exactly into this emphatic identity phenomenon that's going on right? Now, does it fits entirely into what I believe to be the real source of the problem where the synthetic identity belongs to someone that has a social security number that has created or someone that has a social security number that hasn't been registered with the major credit bureau. So that's what true identity theft is we'll get into that more a little bit here in a minute. But unlike traditional identity fraud, where someone actually steals a personal person's identity. This paper explains how SAF perpetrators often begin with just a single piece of legitimate personal data like a social security number, and then they start constructing this file full name as a false identity all circling around this this information, and what happens is that. They can cock this package. It looks very much like the identity of a rural person. Whilst would you do it? No, you're trying to fake out banks and credit institutions and other companies that are trying to conduct business via credit in. So what they try to use that false identity. Like, I said. Apply for credit in a lot of banks are seeing that loans are being secured, and then found out to be connected to synthetic idea identity or even full the government and governmental agencies to allow Frossard accept or intercept tax returns in different forms of payment that people receive from the government, so this is a big deal right now. And it's probably gonna get worse going forward until some of the legislation that was enacted late last year will go into effect, and as we all know sometimes government agencies operate at a snail's pace. So I think before those bills are some of the governmental institutions out there really start taking this seriously. We don't see the bag is really take advantage of synthetic identity fraud to its fullest potential until these government agencies really start clamping down on some of their internal processes. So right now, finally, there's a wreck, you know, we all know there's been a record amount of data breaches across all different parts of the economy, and all that data and all that information that's out there right now expose all of us all exposed. Our personal information more than ever to all these potential criminals across the entire world. And according to the identity theft resource center there have been about one thousand five hundred seventy nine data breaches in two thousand seventeen alone was exposed almost one hundred seventy nine million personal records, including fourteen point two million credit card numbers in one hundred fifty eight million social security numbers. That's a lot of information in the wrong hands. So many of these records. Now circulate is you guys know, and we speak about this quite often on this podcast, but these records now circulate across the dark web where their soul like almost any commodity. You know, your personal data is a new commodity a new the new currency out there. And it's out there. Available to anyone who's willing to pay for it. And now we're seeing some websites not necessarily on the dark web. If you search hard enough on just the regular internet any one of us can get well, I'm not saying you should but you can. Find these web sites that are selling personal identity records in credit card number social security numbers addresses and so forth to help create a data file with a credit bureau. So how does synthetic identity fraud work, boy, that's a mouthful in? Its let's let's keep calling it s I f the acronym, buddy. Anyway in order to commit SIFO fraudsters, begin stealing legitimate social security numbers from people that aren't using the credits, you know, looking at some of this and some of the other articles that's parsley. Correct. So it's people who are really using their credit. What they mean to say is that those are people have social security numbers who have an established credit, and when you establish credit you have to do that through one of the three main credit bureaus in that stars usually with the application of credit card or loan. And so usually what that means is that though security numbers at the bad guys want to steal first to commit synthetic synthetic identity theft or synthetic identity fraud are usually those belonging to children or. People who are just new to this country. So they and they were just issued a social security number so in order to build that synthetic identity fraud will then add fake addresses fake, phone numbers and even crates social media accounts, because they know how the system works, and how lot of different investigators or underwriting and different companies that issue credit surge investigate a credit background. And so that's where everything starts to begin. Then while they're using these synthetic identities these began applying for more and more credit online, and basically, they know they're gonna get turned down because we all know that the legitimate way. No when I was younger, I was so excited to get my first credit card at a major departments rows decline. I I was too young. I didn't have established credit or a payment, you know, with any apartment complex or car dealerships. So I had no credit. So I was down quite often till I finally got my first credit card with a much smaller department store, and I think it was only for about five hundred dollars. But. As long as you're paying on time. And you're paying your bills, and you pay it off they'll sometimes he's institutions will raise your credit line in use your credit card, and you make your payments on time. And then you pay it off. And then you you're starting to look a lot better with the credit. Bureaus your credit score star going up. You're more worthy of receiving credit because there's less risk involved with giving credit to someone who has a credit history, especially one that is really good. So what did the bag is where the trick is that they simply apply for credit, and they get that credit history started. So eventually there's a credit lender out there somewhere. It could be a Bank. It could be financial institution anywhere. Like that. A an even a retailer that has their own private banking or their commercial account this sort of like their in house Bank. And so that you apply for credit at at some place in eventually, one of these institutions lenders are places that issue credit cards in house. They'll offer the foster or this case, they believe it's a real person a small Lanta credit. So is similar to what I did. When I was. Younger. I got a very small line of credit in today. I I hear quite often that sometimes those small lines of credit start from five hundred to one thousand dollars so fraudsters, then make small purchases. Like, I just said before because they understand how the system works make small purchases over several months pay their bills like this. You like good people in the pale pay off the balance in that helps improve the credit rating and that helps improve their standing with that institution. And so that institution when phone or called an ass. Hey, can you raise my credit limit? What do you think they're going to say? Yeah, they're gonna they're gonna raise that credit lemon. And so this is all part of that scheme to keep the credit good keep the credit limit rising. So that adventure the bad guys are bust out of that in in defraud that company. So lotta times when that credit reaches a certain number. We don't really know what that is probably on an individual Bagai basis. But I'm sure it's they wait in the head the patients until it gets large enough, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars. And then again, like, I said they busted. It out. They max it out. They go out and on a spending spree with zero intention a making any payments ever again. So though, these criminals are very organized and extremely sophisticated in they play the long game because I know how the system works, and they use the system, you know, against itself, so large gangs of criminals, sometimes start these processes years in advance in in creating all these different fake identities. And then finally pulling everything together in really busting it out. So it's very difficult to catch very difficult to monitor or investigate because the sole purpose of this fraud. And if you look up fraud in the dictionary, and I was asked about this recently on a on a podcast what is fraud? So you don't have to open up the dictionary, but fraud in its most basic form definition is is that it is meant to be hidden. So this is another example where bag is trying to hide everything they do string along as long as they can. So that they can maximize that fraud attempt by bus. Being out a large credit purchase with your organization. And that's how what is all about a great conversation. I just want to put out there. Great shot at shot out to a good friend of mine. Matt Christian and Matt runs the audit lock fraud dot com. And actually he runs the podcast fraud. Not frog dot com in Mennonite talked extensively about this on a recent podcast. And it was very interesting. How important is a really understand the the roots of fraud and were fraud begins and understand that it is all about the bag is hiding who they are. And what they do from you. So they can stringer along their fraud as long as possible. So we haven't had a chance to to check out audit lock fraud. Do so online what a great organization. Good shat out there to Matt for putting together a great website to enhance the awareness in education for all of us to really ruin a bad guys day in checkout fraud, not frog dot com, and I'll put that URL in the pod notes. That's Matt's linked to his podcast is. Great website. And again, great information there to help fight the bad guys way to go. Matt, hey on a second note here, let's go a little deeper here. And I collected some other different articles hereabouts synthetic identity theft or synthetic added identity fraud while what a mouthful right, but anyway, recently juniper research big research company. Put out information about online payment fraud losses are set to more than double over the next five years and to reach a staggering loss figure about forty eight billion dollars. That's amazing. And in part of that report. Again, it covers fraud and all these different sectors, e karma's airlines money transfer and banking services and so forth. And that is Donna Shing growth. According to juniper research in fraud is don't be fueled again by this epidemic of continuing data breaches in the theft of our information. So what's increasingly common, you know, be moved by the fraudsters to use those pieces. Of information, they obtained from a breach in the really looking for that different people. Call a different things, but identity data plus or PI personally private information that you only know that helps unlock different pieces of credit through your banks loan institutions credit card companies information specific to you could be you know, what kind of car is registered at the address where you have a mortgage was the balance on your mortgage account certain things that you'll only have information to that you link these pieces of information through two factor. Authentication those things help unlock you know, that account for you. That's what the bad guys really really want to help open up even more fraud with synthetic identity. So what juniper research is also saying that synthetic identity theft is currently really low hanging fruit because it takes a long time for people like us to really figure out what's going on there. Very patient. Article says it you know, even though it takes time for the fraudsters to stab wish. Many of their targets are not set up to detect all these behavioral giveaways, they say in. That may indicate this type of fraud. So a lot of companies were still not set up to really truly identify Winston thank fraud is occurring at our organization so synthetic fraud. They say is reportedly the fastest growing type of identity fraud in the United States, and it accounts were an estimated eighty to eighty five percent of the total. That's amazing. So remember that synthetic ID theft or ID fraud is not always using your real name, your all address or phone number is a combination of fake information and a social security number, and again, that's a social security number probably that has been established with a child. So let's talk about this for a second. You're gonna hair a lot about CR as we'll see our as our credit reporting agencies. So though who are the CR as well. That's experien- trans union in equifax those of the main credit reporting agencies or credit bureaus that we call it here in short. And so why is this important well because how many digits is your soul? Social security number. Well, it's that's right nine digits. Your social security number is nine digits in so a credit profile or a credit profile number is made up of nine digits. And so those nine digits are in your credit profile or crawled your credit profile number within the credit bureau in. So why is this important? Well, that file is initiated it with the credit bureau upon someone reaching out to apply for credit or alone. And if you're a child while no one's child on the phone right now. But you know, young children are issued social security numbers. Well, they're not out there applying for credit cards are they know they're not. So these are new unused social security numbers. Not on file with any credit bureau. Any credit reporting agency, so children's social security numbers are out there on the dark web for sale. And again, they call it a child or children fulls F U L Z Bagai language to get the full name. Address in social security number of this child. Now, why is this important? Well, the school back. Why do people get social security numbers for children in the first place? Well, a social security number in the United States, as we all know is a way to dinner fi not just yourself, but but your child so you'll have children or you don't yet. This is how it works. So United States. Your child will need a social security number in order for you to claim a child related tax break or something that's related to dependent exemption and or child tax credit on your income tax return. So that's really important that yet to get a social security number for your your kid, and and again to address baby to different records. And so you're adding your new baby to what other record do you think? So you need a social security number to do that with your health insurance plan. A lot of people who have children start saving up a college savings plan while you need a social security number for your kit for that to a lot of people grandparents wanted to open up. A checking account or Bank account. No four for your new baby there. So you need a social security number. So how do you do that? While you you apply for social security number like most of y'all did before he got a job in. We're old enough. Now to remember, I do when when I got mine parents do that on the child's behalf. So you they go to the social security administration by completing a birth registration form, and they see you complete the form in the social security administration sins the parents that new social security information because hospitals, health health insurance companies banks and so forth. Anything do with that new child on what that social security number? So that's that's where this starts out with. So where are these social security numbers out? There were bad guys. Find this information or hack into institutions or data breaches to obtain personal private information while your social security number. Not just kids is all over the place. And really think about I wrote down some ideas. Here's some things that if you really think about all the different places that you right down. Your social security number and how these social security numbers can be stolen. It's it's kind of scary. So first of all, it's ju-. I it's us. We have it. It might be on my cell phone. It may be on my PC at home. It could be in my wallet. I don't keep it like that. But some people still care around their social security card not recommended to do where else is your social security number. Well, it's flown out there in the mail somewhere. How's that happening? Well, it's flown out there in the mail because it could be related to the government. It's related to taxes God forbid, you big convicted of a crime, but your social security numbers probably somewhere in a criminal history as well. At your social security numbers tied to properties it could be tied to if you're in the military, the VA in other computers databases within the government. If you ever gonna call it or any extended learning educational institutions your social security numbers, their health care, associations and. Organizations if you belong to alumni groups with your college there, it is again within computers in different databases where else well, the obvious places your social security number is, obviously with your employer and in from your employer. It's the Bank your Bank, your employers, Bank, any credit processing companies loan institutions, even utility companies have your social security number. And then also you start talking a little bit deeper retail computers retail organizations and those databases from which you probably apply for credit at some point. So your social security number is out there everywhere to be stolen. And we think we're protecting it with amongst ourselves personally. But it's exposed to the bag is from so many, different institutions and organizations. So this is how it happens, but the bag is focusing. I believe in if you read enough about synthetic identity theft in new work enough cases to find out that a lot of the fraud that we're seeing this connected to social social security number that is brand new. Well, why is it brand new? It's never been used before. Until you find out. It's been used by the bad guys to commit fraud against your organization to pain some credit, so they can use against you bust out at a later date while it's probably associated with a a child or so in brand new here in the company who just may have immigrated here, and they needed to start work, and therefore they needed a social security number. Now, those people probably haven't applied for credit. Those are the ones on the repeat again, those the security numbers children and people are brand new in this country just issued a social security number. Those are the social security numbers at the bad guys want to start a synthetic identity. So that's so important. So again, what is was your social security number called again? It's a CPI in a credit profile number is nine digits is going to be used in combination. With other fake information to set up a synthetic identity. And again, it's for the sole purpose to start a credit history. So let's let's recap for a second that. As your that. Credit history is made there in compiled by and maintain by those credit reporting agencies experien- trans union and equifax we call those the credit bureaus the three main as in the United States. We just talked about that. So they collect consumer credit histories from credit card companies and banks mortgage companies and other creditors to create a indepth credit profiler credit report, and whenever customer complete an application, as you know, this what we're talking about here to to ask for a credit card to get alone from a Bank or any financial institution. All of the application information is sent to one of the CR age the credit reporting agencies and the credit bureaus gather that applicants personally identifiable bowl information Termine whether not a credit report actually exists so crepe bureaus scour. The public records financial information such as court records in bankruptcies and foreclosures and so forth. And if there's no matches found anywhere. The Sierra or the credit reporting agency still keeps a record of that inquiry. Even though they're not to probably recommend issuing credit or for that. In other words, that person will probably be denied receiving credit. There's no other history out there. So, but if a match is found somewhere, and there's some sort of corresponding good credit while there's a good chance that that synthetic identity will be granted credit or that loan. So the key concept understands at any credit requests omitted biosphere, a credit reporting agency will then create that credit file if none ever existed prior to that request. So the bag is no this brand new social security number probably belong into some young young kid that the parents gots. So they can help file the taxes and their user health insurance. Bad guys want that fresh unused so security number because there's no credit file on record with any of the Sierras as that makes sense makes sense, right? Because it's brand new. They can do anything. They want with. It is not out. There is never been acted upon. Or any requests made by any other credit card company or Bank or loan institution. So this is brand new information. So again, the key concept understands that any credit requests and that credit request comes from when you apply for credit at a retailer private-label car visa MasterCard, Meghan, express or loan. You know, once you do that it's sent to the Sierra the credit reporting agency. And then even though is not going to be granted credit. It establishes a record a wrecker that creates a credit file on that synthetic identity. That's what the bad guys want to do because I have patience to sit there and wait or keep applying for credit in eventually, they'll get something five hundred thousand bucks pay on that in adventure Ila stabbed that synthetic identity. Credit file the make sense. So that's what happens. That's the sole purpose of this creates thebte`aining identity. It looks legit. I it looks like a new person who's just trying to get get their life started by by applying for credit or loan, and they do this. By stealing usually young people's our new people in the United States, social security number, and let's not forget where the your social security number. It's it's embedded in every database around the world in the country. Unfortunately, and it's so important it will unlock so many things where the bag is. That's why so important said it before to protect your passwords, probably go out there and have some sort of identity theft monitoring company. They're very low cost is very simple to implement at least give you a leg up on what's out there in so that you can be alerted immediately. If your identity has been stolen being used to obtain credit for fraudulent purposes, so here's some good news. A lot of my colleagues at there have been talking about this. And there's so many people who don't know this yet. This is very important. So right now, there's been a law. Okay. Right. It's out there right now. But last year late last year a law was created in the Senate as it was Senate Bill two one five five Senate Bill twenty one fifty five Phil free to Google that. But Senate Bill twenty one fifty five is a law that was instituted late last year that Tara. Hits specifically synthetic identity fraud. All right. Finally, the government's getting onboard air finally they're seeing the light here and seeing how we need help in the general public needs help so Cinna Bill twenty one fifty five law that targets and identity fraud. So it includes provisions that specifically are designed to prevent synthetic identity fraud. That's awesome. So one of the provisions is that the Commissioner of the social security administration must modify social security men administration databases or develop a new database verifies the fraud production. Data contained in electron ick inquiry from permitted entity. So I'm reading part of the law here legal speak there, but a permitted entity financial institution service provider or other organization working with a financial institution fraud protection. Data includes personal data from an individual such as a social security number data birth and a full name the social security ministration system. Must also accept the Elec. Tronc consent of an individual who has given a permitted. An entity permission to use personal details of verify their identity through the agency's consent base social security, number verification service, individual consent and fraud. Data verification must be done electronically. Only and not a signature on paper or what they call a wet signature. So look at that. That's that is great news. Social security administration has been tasked by the government to do something to stop identity fraud. And I think is going to be coming out soon. So that that's great news. So there's no deadline. This is the this is the bad news. So right now, this we're talking about how we believe in our industry the fraud practitioners the people doing this work right now the fraud that I'm seeing myself come in. That is connected to synthetic identity theft is that we should all expect synthetic identity Dinnie fraud to spike, I mean, really spike because right now, there's no deadline for this particular statute. There's no deadline. For the social security administration to enact these provisions. So there's no deadline to implement anything right now. Just a law that says we need to get this done. So remember part of this is sounds kind of millions like the EM V chip law. You know, it took several years for that law to be fully implemented. So we this. This could be a few years out before we start seeing some benefits of this new law. So just like the V chip roll out. Those bag is were scrambling to make the most out of that out of credit card fraud before EM v ruled out. So that's what they're gonna do. Right now. I'm sure the bag. I read about the law or heard about the law. Listen this podcast. Hopefully, you know, because we're gonna come after you, and hopefully the government will to by shutting down their ability to commit identity theft through developing synthetic identities. So this is important. So I really encourage you to look up Senate Bill two one five five is a very long by two hundred pages. There's a lot of different provisions in there about protecting identities from the government and financial institutions anybody. Else at securing customer data's Dona amped up a little bit more for different organizations to do a better job securing that data, and it's really worthwhile. Looking. So if you ever looked at that Senate Bill two one five five targets in a provision within that bills synthetic identity fraud and a lot of different other provisions to protect people's identities from fraudsters. So that is a great Bill read that it's really worth looking at. And I would encourage you if your corporate counselors anyone else within your IT team or your cyber security team operations or anyone involved with your web development teams understand that Bill because there's a lot of different information. There that relates to protecting customers information. Hey, guys. I hope everybody enjoyed the podcast. Today's been great talking about this. I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about synthetic identity fraud thing that's called S. I f for short use that more often next little little bit of tongue twister. So just remember about some of the provisions or some of the real important information within this podcast. A lot of this is, you know, still evolving, very dynamic how the bad guys are operating. I I would imagine knowing that how bad guys operate. They don't take some this information and twisted around to use it to their vantage while they can. And that's why we're like while the reports are saying, we should see a spike Hinson. Thank identity theft going forward up until the government really gets a handle on what they should do with the social security administration to help protect our social security numbers. But anyway, I just wanted to circle back. Do you guys really save? Thank you again for everything. You guys are doing is great inspiration. As always great to hear from you guys. Great feedback said last week that we're gonna amp up the podcast by introducing certain gas fraud practitioners even maybe some fraudsters that I know that have gone to the good side. They're not on the dark side anymore. But really highlight what's important about fighting fraud and ruining bad guys day. It's really at grass roots level. It's us the practitioners dune it everyday grinding out. You know, trying to make a difference by building awareness and. Education amongst our peers, and the general public and importantly our organization so that we can really do a better job really stop in the bad guys trying to ruin our day. So again good shut out there right now go to t spring. I'm gonna have the podcast link in my notes for any Ruina bag is day radio products. I'm offering fifteen percent off discount coupon code. Thank you. So fifteen percent of any of those Ruta bad guys day radio t shirts. Hoodies and coffee mugs. A love to see you guys. Where are you have the coffee mug a lot of great feedback, especially on that coffee mug of thank you so much and again, another shot out to this week sponsor, which is dashed slain in dash lanes is the top password management company out there. Great way to take your password in your identity, make things a lot simpler, when you're logging on different sites and everything to have that password manager, it really takes up the digital protection up another level in part of that package for only four dollars ninety nine cents a month. You get the dark web monitoring with any kind of. Alerts that are related to your personal identity. I mean, it sinked across all different kinds of devices and what I loved the most his at it. It helps you instantly fill in our auto fill payment information in a secure fashion. So take a look at dash lane. Dash lame premiums four dollars ninety nine cents a month right now thirty day money back guarantee, the lake to this great deal will be in the podcast moats. Please take a look at that. And see if it's worthwhile for you to protect your personal identity or something you can use at your organization everybody. Thank you very much and welcome back to ruin a bad guys day radio looking forward to talking to you very soon have a great week. Thanks for listening to blue in a bad guys day radio podcast with skip Myers. If you like show, these tell your friends and colleagues, you can learn more about us at Ruina, bad guys date. Hot call our visit us on Twitter and Facebook at Ruina at guys day. Join us for another episode of Ruina bad guys day radio podcast. The information provided in ruin a bad guys day radio podcast is for informational purposes of -ly, it should not be considered legal or financial advice. You should consult legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

fraud United States Myers Sierras Matt Christian Rooney Senate partner Reuters LifeLock CR
What is Visa Merchant Purchase Inquiry Program (VMPI)? Interview with Fraud Expert Scott Adams from FraudPVP.com

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

31:45 min | 2 years ago

What is Visa Merchant Purchase Inquiry Program (VMPI)? Interview with Fraud Expert Scott Adams from FraudPVP.com

"Welcome to ruin a Bank is day radio podcast with fraud expert skip buyers. This is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best front provincial solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team, and how to prosecute criminals. Now, here's your host skip buyers. Hello everyone. Thank you for tuning into ruin a bad guys day radio show. Hey, I'm skip Myers. Your hosts are bad guys day radio. And I wanna start off by thanking everyone who continues to support the program, and especially those of you. He keeps any all those great emails and feedback. Hey, we have a great show lined up this week, including a very very special guest that helps you fight fraudsters and help prevent chargebacks before they really happen through VM PI or visas Merson purses inquiry programs, so before we get started. Let's discuss some fraud stance that are out there right now that will probably make you lose sleep tonight might not know that eighty six percent of all chargebacks may be cases of friendly frog in friendly fraud is increasing at a forty one percent, right. And it's been increasing that at that rate for over the past two years and seeing pe- losses will reach as staggering seven point two billion dollars by the year twenty twenty. And what's really a scary statistic? Is that approximately eight and ten customers admit to filing a charge van is of actually working out the issues to regularly with the seller or merchant? And that's what we don't talk about today. How can we really target Brindley Frossard, and and really target are charged program with reducing the amount of losses to our company and streamline the processes that our internal controls have to five chargebacks and disputes. So today as promise Rudy bad guys day radio will be featuring some the top fraud fighters industry throughout two thousand nineteen and today, I'm especially excited to introduce to you Scott Adams, withdrawn DVD, Scott at founder of thraw TV dot com has over twenty years of experience in the field of payments as both the merchant and fraud expert. He's worked with companies large and small Therese reduce chargebacks improve our y and fight fraud on multiple platforms. So we're. Gonna discuss the visa Mercer purchase inquiry program or VM PI. And how Scott's expertise can help save time with those disputes in eventually reduce charge bang. If your tension, please. So, hey, Scott. I'm so glad you could join us today. How are you? I'm doing great skip. Thanks for having me. That's awesome. Hey, you know, we've had a lot of discussions about this and known each other for a few years, and you really make an impact in fighting fraud and helping other versions really, reduce chargebacks and losses. Can you? Tell us me in our listeners more about VM PI, and how it works and make chores Bax dispute simpler and more automated. Yes, sure. So VP is actually a really interesting product that these decide to launch a few years back and idea was is that the one of the big problems, and you know, you just talked about Satistics around friendly fraud is that most of the time a few consumer looks at the credit card statement, all they see is a twenty something character descriptors, which oftentimes has a bunch of diversion. And so think about if you're a consumer you've got a credit card, you I'm sure you've had a time where you've looked at your statement and saw charge and said, okay, what is this and no idea, and I have. Yeah. Everyone has it doesn't matter. You could. Make one charge a month. And that's going to happen. Because you know, the merchant is not required a pissing there that makes sense in really most marches. Don't know any better. They don't understand that that descriptors is all the consumer has the recognize charge. So oftentimes, especially for new merchant. It's like a corporate name. You know, what who's going to recognize that you're gonna recognize the website? You're gonna recognize the the game your kids playing whatever that might be so visa decides that they needed a better way to handle this. And so that's where VPI came from. And they said, you know, let's make a product where the merchant can actually respond more or less directly to the merchants or site to the consumers question of what is this? And so they created the system it's actually really nice in that, you know, that kind of the flow goes, let's say that the consumer calls in to their credit card company. And you know, says, hey, I don't recognize this in the past that would just become a charge back because the issue or new knows no more about that transaction than the consumer does. Really, right. They might know. A corporate name or something which still help. Yeah. I've seen like that indicator. Be like db doing business as in. You're exactly right. I I see that. Sometimes I have no clue whatsoever. Even how to decipher that acronym. So it's very common in. Yeah. Very common. And you know, that's the thing is legally, it makes sense your business doesn't have to be the same name. There's a lot of different things legally why you might do that. But the the merchants often, especially neurons don't know to make something better just outside of EMP. I if you're a merchant out there, make sure your descript or actually describe something that the consumer will know about beyond that use the PI. And so we're VPI goes is that so kind of the new process consumer doesn't recognize they call this shore. And now if that is using VM PI, and this is only what visa by the way, they can press a button on their screen in. It'll pop up with more information, and that information could be anything that the merchant wants to pass back. And so. Set up new merchants. I tell them, you know, I need some basic information. But then I say, okay now, tell me what your consumers, but the person that's looking at the credit card statement would recognize and you keep in mind that you know, it might be if your product is targeted mostly for for Dulce for actual cardholders that it might be your your website name product names like that. But VPI lets you actually pass in your full shopping cart information. So if you're a merge of a shopping cart, you push it all in and so now, you know, the consumer called in let's say, this is a some form of website. That's a marketplace. And you know, the scripture might have been the marketplace mate. But the actual purchase was with some other, you know, provider some of the create its products, maybe and the issue now read off. Okay. So you bought it at this website. And here's an Email address that was used to buy it here is the name. Here's maybe an account name. And then if this shopping cart hero here, the five items you bought here, the prices, it looks like. One of these shipped. Here's your tracking number right? Basically the same stuff. You would get in the port at the merchants portal when where you bought is now in this recite. And so the idea being, you know, you you mentioned like helping disputes this actually way before that. And but yeah, the pass it would have been dispute, but the beauty of the system is that now let's that consumer call then they were told them what the what the purchase was and the best situation is that the consumer thin says, oh, wait. I know what that is sorry about or, you know, no charge back notice Butte, no fraud alert and best of all the merchant not only keeps the money, and they're no additional fees, but they keep a happy customer, and they can you. If it's a recurring product they can rebuild again. Or if it's like it's talked about like a shopping cart a marketplace. They keep that customer the customer will come back and buy for them. Again. This has been a long time coming for a service like this. Because I mean, we all know, you know, all of us that are in this business. Especially if you're working chargebacks, we had a way to produce that proof after the charge back was actually filed an and you know, and now we can use that that proof for that evidence of the transaction as a preventative measure before it turns into the charge back on what a great way to streamline the process and make things more efficient and to your point really keep those happy customers. That's it's I kind of as an extension of customer service, unites, if the merchant are, it'd be great if the consumer just call the March, but the card companies made it so easy and pitched it so much on the web on TV that there's no lie ability just call us. Now, they have the tools actually kinda help your customer support. So that works really well. No, that's awesome. In in. I mean, I can see all the time savings with those fraud analysts or those those reps that are actually working those chargebacks everyday making the phone calls sending those emails I mean, the potential to save money in reducing those processing times before they actually turn into chargebacks as huge in. Again. I think what we both can't stress enough. Is that the potential impact of improving your overall customer service metrics is just massive twin place, I've been talking with merchants about is that, you know, it helps customer service it helps so many different areas your company, and when other thing that's that's kind of a side effect that I didn't even realize gonna vault with us was that if you if you look closely chargebacks, you'll know that there's probably a decent percentage of them that have actually been refunded before the charge back happened. Right. You know, that's always been confusing to markets. But you know, the the these systems were built originally, right? You know, twenty thirty years ago, and there is a delay between the moment that the merchant says refund and the issuer knows exactly different banks different acquirers. There's a lot of aerials there. But it can be hours today's two weeks. And that's also I found with the PI is that we can see the merchant can actually pass in. This was already refunded. Here's the date and time, and here's if they have it. Reef and authorization or a, you know, some kind of transaction ID to go with that. And in most cases, what I'm seeing in my data is that this then does not do charge back. Let's another place that sure if you're in the know in your experience at this. You realize that if you dispute those later, you you will win over case. But what a lot of merchants don't realize is that even though you disputed it and one it still counts against you for that month as charge back on your percentages, which are super important for you to monitor. You know, this is a great segue, and I had a digital stat. I wanted to include in the opening of the monologue there. But one thing that a lot of people don't know is that a large percentage of all chargebacks in its approximated at about forty nine percent of all chargebacks are filed without the consumer's full knowledge. For instance, the the customary Astor Bank to look into transaction or cancel maybe a subscription or something on like that on their behalf. But the Bank misinterprets that as a request for from that dispute to file a full-fledged charge back. Happens a lot. And I that's what your stats you're saying. So it they agree. We agree because it does seem like that anymore. And it used to be technically, I think it's still the rules. But they just don't really get followed to the letter, and it really a lot of the real son apply any more because most these rules Overton written back before that are not exam. You used to have an I remember, you know, skips that I've been doing this a while. When I first learned what a charge back was. I didn't really care at the time. I didn't know I had to say a number and many merchants if you've been around a while. No that that that's actually not that uncommon to start a business get your merchant account and not know how that works. What I what I remember? I remember paper get the post office, the male guy would bring those big crates that if you had a lot of male, and it looks like in a you got a lot of fans, well, then you dig into these, and they're all chargebacks, and they would actually have basically an affidavit from the consumer saying this was fraud. Right. Right. And your dating yourself by talking about mail ru. I know. But it bit of the thing is I I I know that's actually still supposed to happen. But it really doesn't anymore. Now. It's it can be what you to set. It can be that fast. It can be you call in and say, I'm not sure what the says the banks is. Okay. I'll take care of that for you. Well, that's back, and they didn't say it. That's what it is exactly in. This service is really gonna make a big difference. And so it was interesting and some of the resource pre podcast that I was doing is at some information. This came from Lexus nexus said that fraud costs associated with chargebacks costs merchants about two dollars and forty cents for Erie one dollar loss. And of course, this includes the actual product that was lost or services banking fees administration. 'cause in the payroll to manage those chargebacks, I mean, that's a lot of money. So anyone's looking at twenty figure out or go to the next meaning to really take your program to the next level with with your upper management. That's a good staff to really talk about. And don't you think Scott out for sure, right? I actually would say that that's really low knowing right that probably that's taking. Count the supermarkets out there that are almost hundred percent automated, you know, because there's just one charge back for a huge merchant doesn't cost near as much as if just take out the product cost just the fees. Right, but huge merchant can ago, she ate the small merchant. Can't there's actually as much volume out there on the smaller merchants as the big ones. There's just a lot of little ones. This isn't factor in with that margin is your particular company has within that product. So that's a very across the spectrum of different industries verticals whether near latronic digital goods, soft goods in and so forth. And so, yeah, if you're not a huge company, and you don't have a super experienced team. I would multiply that cost. I would say it's, you know, tens of dollars if not more you got include your time your team any team members their time. And even just once you get in the program. I'm always reminding merchants that especially if you've not been there yet in a you probably get there at some point really the the cost. They motion will cost the opportunity cost. What could? You have been doing instead of fighting chargebacks instead of fighting these problems in those things all add up really fast. This awesome. So, hey, everyone what we're really talking about. Here is really streamlining your process, making your charge BAC dispute process more effective more efficient and reduce those costs. And what a great thing. This God is doing through his company fraud Peavy P, and he has been able to really take VM PI at a higher level a better level of service to merchants because he was a merchant. He knows how we thinks the Scott what what is fraud Peavy p service with the PI actually doing to help merchants reduce costs at that higher level. So this have a few things. So I you know, VP technically is addressed merchant product with. But it's like go back about a year. And I was at a one of the industry conferences, and everyone was asking me. How do I get him PI? And I was base having to say I have no idea I'm trying to get I'm trying to clients on the PI. And so. I'll let you know, I took names, and, you know, fast forward about three or four months later met a different conference in a meeting up with a visas VP, and she she says, hey, I hear your training merchants. All on. Why don't you build something to help? And the problem being that visa doesn't have enough people in that apartment. They're you know, they're trying to grow it. But they basically decided to switch tactics and focus on what they're best at which is really what any business visas focusing issuers and on acquires. And you know, now they've got a program that allows me to get involved in. I can focus on the merchants and so I- integrated with visa and sort of bring merchants onboard and what I realized through that process and also through throughout my consulting. And it just being a merchant for nearly twenty years is that I don't care if you're a billion dollar company, or, you know, a million dollar company or less, you don't have enough engineering resources because you always could use more. And so what I did what fraud TV is that I basically developed the platform. That isn't just for VPI, but its main focus right now that cut decouples the real time aspect of service from that service and allows the merchant to to let me host mother data. And so in the case that data that you wanna send into consumer to show them that this is a good charge. I actually host that for the merchant. And when I say, we make it easy. And that the problem is that you you guys just don't have enough engineering to do everything you wanna do I've made it. So that there's basically two integration. You depends on what you meant you consider integration. But but fraud P P all you have to do is worse case in the you're the fraud manager, go grab a report from your acquire. And upload it to me via you. I also a Louis one step further, which I I don't consider Gration, and almost anyone can do is it make it a little bit more complicated, but still easy automate that process. And so once a day, you send data and I take care of the rest and ever Merck. Talked to says, okay, that's doable. But they can't do integrate with API that takes time that's complex in. You. Gotta get this. Right. Yes. Whereas upload even even tune extent. A an FTP automate upload you can have that on your personal computer, if you need to and so we just basically automate everything, and then actually VPI has at the visa side has new reporting. It's really just does what it does. And it doesn't have bells whistles. And so, you know, we've added a bunch of reporting that's all geared around. What a merchant needs to see. We've we have the applaud download capability. You can download the data to your system as well from through my my you, I if people wanna we've API, but actually has asked for it yet. And then then beyond that. So another piece of this product that you know, it's funny. How many surprises I got one antiquated. The system. Here's another problem. You may you Merican is you know, let's say you're chugging along running your business and all of a sudden visas telling you, oh, hey, you're in the the visa fraud Marning program and use it. What's this? You know? It's like, you didn't know you didn't know what you're fraud. Right. Was well there the here's the thing there actually is no good way to calculate that up. Until now in that only the top acquires even give you access to that data. And that if you're that experience, you might know the TC Ford report, I'm yet. There's a few acquires will give it to you. But one it's delayed. It's at least today behind if not weeks bind to most merchants can't get it pretty much at all in less than the program, which I've always found super frustrating that you don't get into your in the program. So how did you know, you're getting close did you know, what to monitor and how to fix it? So VPI though is now gets gets you access to that data in real time. And obviously, I said, no integration. So technically, it's not real time. But if. If you log into my UI, or you ask to have Email or some other form of alert from the system, you can literally see the date and time stamp that mice. This shows is the exact same day time stamp that visa shows if you do get that get alerted and thus get the TC forty from them. So I know the moment you get a charge back. The moment you get a fraud alert the moment you get cancer occurring. Which is another thing that most marchers. Don't even know about. And also an exception. So any those things could turn into a charge back at some point. And obviously just the charge back numbers. So take all that data together. And you know, we have provide reporting around that. So you can log in look at the dashboard, and you literally be able to see at this very moment. Based on the date of you've sent me so far. This is your charge great. This is your fraud. Right. This is your fraud amount. So you can log onto your business so much better and at a much closer much more accurate level. You're exactly right next seen through the years to when the biggest disconnects with a lot of retailers merchants fraud. Analysts chores BAC practitioners is the disconnect with the data at through fingerprints. The inability to leverage all these different pieces of fraud data chargebacks disputes fraud, not frog friendly fraud account takeover in having it in one space one window pane or jet dash Ford like you're talking about. And that will I can't imagine what's going to happen with the industry, but that's really gonna make companies more efficient. And in to your point really increase customer service of finally at once levers data into the habits segment in so many different platforms in different databases or spreadsheets into one very specialized utility Nance. I'm trying to think I realize technically, I'm not a merchant right now. But how how I see it. I've been working for so long. I can't help. But think that way and initially what I wanna think like team to like merchant. And so everything I do. I'm looking at at the system as we go for what's the next feature. What are we adding? And it's always about how do I improve the situation for the merchants right one in in having that merchant background mentality. You understand as an end user from the merchant standpoint instead of the actual, you know, visas massacred in American Express companies are really going toward issues, you understand the impact on customers more than they could ever imagine. Definitely. So Scott, I know you've had some practice ready with your service with some merchants that will remain unnamed so far until probably next week. But can you give us a kind of overview, how your case studies been going with that merchant? Yes. Sure. So we've had last downing success. I think there's some terminology to describe a quick so kind of the best outcome from of NPR is what I'm calling it a fluctuation. That means that the consumer called in after they've seen this data heard this data from the support rep. They now recognize the charge do not want to dispute it so not only merchant not charge back or fraud alert, but they also get to keep the money and keep a happy customer. And so there's fluctuations then there's that kind of middle ground that I told you that, you know, maybe you already did refund. Maybe you're fraud team did re from same day as the transaction happened. But then the consumer calls in the same day to the card company and charge by captains. And so at the PI because we've passed that data to issuer they now say, oh, wait. This has already ordered refunded. You don't need it to this. So you save the charge back. But unfortunately, you still lose the money, but you don't lose it twice in the past. You had been have gotten the charge back, which would then suck the money from your account. Right. So you lose twice release. Thirty days of not a couple of months, and then there's finally is kind of alert piece which is just that real time data and so with my my first few merchants. What I've been seeing is out of all the inquiries. We get and we're getting a lot of coverage is very good, especially that it states. And it's growing every day in the world. We're seeing as much as a fifty percent deflections those which is just. Yeah. Standing and then on top of that similar numbers on the refund side. And so, you know, I can't really imagine anything better. Like, I would have been happy with ten or twenty percent. And it's way better than that. Man. You know, we we wouldn't be we couldn't be talking like this like two or three years ago. This is really come a long way. And there's. No. There was an I mean what you just described with your service. I mean, the time savings alone while the reduction may be payroll or that particular person as actually doing chargebacks they can spend their time on other things. Maybe more productive those inquiries than you can deflect from turning into chargebacks in the first place. That's huge the save sales. All these different things you can go back to your executive team. And I just talk about how you reduce fraud. But how you're actually doing things to make your processes more efficient and actually help customers increase sales on what you're saying. The best part is that easy integration. And turn you got those fast results because I know as a as a merchant how when the hardest things dealing with with third-party vendors is really what big question how fast can I integrate this into my system? How easy is it? Going to be with the coding how come IT team work with your team and win. Can I start seeing results that's really the bottom line? And I think you're really making strides are really working hard at really making a difference in this industry. So thank you. Thank you. We plan on doing that down the road in the platforms, basically set up for other products as well. And so we're kind of taking notes as we talked merchants into what else would you like, you know, what other real time services can be kind of decouple and allow us are slightly less. Real time platform is awesome. You know, I just keep thinking in my head every time. I hear you talk. I mean, what an incredible way to communicate. All this information in retail real time with visa in our own version, data to shear that transaction data is just gonna be huge with solving that dispute before it becomes a charge back or fraud transaction, and what a huge big cost savings for Mersin. Increasing those officiency. He's in really bottom line improving that customer service, which is really important to all of us with keeping that customer and having repeat business network. One other thing to think about us a merchant to as that is said this on stage for years is that in it's it can be hard to resources for fraud in you're in big trouble. And so, you know, I think one of the jobs, especially as a manager. Rector VP level that you need to keep in mind is that you have to get out there and make sure that that the exact that the other teams at your company know, you exist, because generally it's like if you're not in trouble at cares. But really you have access to so much date and so much information and Allison's like this. You're literally saving the sales or helping customer support to do the math into you'll discover you're actually making the company money, and that's always good. And you know, it's interesting what you said, you know, it's all good until it's not. And there's so many people are business say all the time. Gosh, I wish I could, you know, meet with the CFO or the CEO or my senior VP and finance or something one day really talk about in. No careful what you wish for because most people don't have that that chance until something goes bad. But in this case with this particular system now, you can add value to what you do every day and be a voice of your own initiatives with really helping the company at a much larger level instead of just finding chargebacks you're actually adding profits in sales to the bottom line, and you can look at it with with our site. You can actually log in your dashboard. And that's one of the first thing she on the dashboard is the money saved by the deflections. We add that up for you. And even if. One of the next updates to the system where actually gonna have even estimate that is beyond just adding the numbers, but is looking at, you know, had that been charged back in charge back fees other fees involved and trying to kind of give an estimate so you based on it to do anything. You just log in see it, and you can write your poor for the week or go meet with your VP. I mean, you can generate reports before those reports are requested by somebody else in most times somebody else that you don't want to be questioning those reports. So you get ahead of it. You're more proactive than said of reactive. Definitely. Hey, scott. This has been such great. Is there anything else for our listeners that you can vies us any other takeaways helping advice I think I would go back to the beginning and say, you know, one you definitely want to be using VM PI. And however, you make you do that ideally with five PB, but it's a great product. I just think literally every merchants be using it, and you know, just like any other product. It's it takes time to roll out in the coverage is is excellent and states in its decent world. Wide and it's improving, but the only way that we're gonna make this as merchants super successful and top coverage everywhere in the world is to use it because you just visas got to go out there. And and get issuers that aren't on it already to start using it. And so the more of us that are on there. The more firepower visa has to say guys, look all these merchants want it. So get with the program. But even simpler, just think about your think about your customer and think about the guy looking at the the card statement and just start with let's make your descript or better make sure that fits Yousof descriptors. If you don't know what those are either Email me or or skip or a talked your acquire. They all accept them for the most part. And also think about that, you know, the more you communicate with your consumers the better. And remember that really there's a lot of cases where you're thinking think about who's gonna look the statement for soup about the product idea with a lot of video gamer chats, I'm any any merchant really, though that has a skews to the younger side, you know, it. It's very often. It's mom looks the statement or dad, and it may be legitimate. The the parent may have given permission. But so now think about if a kid think about this happening. Do you do, you know, the the corporate name of of the video games that your your kids playing now probably not, but you do know the game. And so, you know, make sure that the scripture action describes what what's being purchased so often Johnny borrows, mommy's credit card and goes online and download some games, they're gaming time. And and I'm not even saying that it wasn't allowed mama could have said, yes, do it. But then forgets or like, I said that scripture might say some funny corporate name nothing to do with the game. Johnny doesn't sit there at the at the dinner table talking about. Yeah. You know, this the corporation scame, I'm playing now you talk about the game. He talks about the game. Exactly. What's great point? It's got you know, you're out and about at conferences. And and speaking events is Ernie where you want to tell our listeners where you might be next. So they can maybe tune in or actually see you at the conference also gonna be in actually next week. It's a little late or actually. This is being put live after that conference. It's just so as you're listening to this. I was just at the count summit in Austin, Texas, the next place, they'll be I believe is the CMPS expo which is in San Francisco this year in may. And after that, I believe I'm going to be at payments. Ed, the direct response for bed b-, really another mother tip. If you don't go to these conferences, you should. They're great weight exchange information with merchants and learn what's out Holly recommend those. Are you have not either budget Ford or Astra boss ago? You learn so much from people just like Scott every day in some of these nuances they help fight fraud. Like, those descriptors that most people don't understand. So that's great feedback. And great advice looking forward to seeing you at some of these conferences, Scott this been great time to be with you today. What a great discussion about VM. And while what a longtime coming for something like this in the service, you're providing a fraud TVP envy servicemen. What a great way to help. Merchants. Save time in reduce cars Bex. I mean, we all want to do that can help our customers. So, hey, everyone, I'm gonna put all the Scots contact information. Listen to podcasts notes with links to website from PDP, the website and more information about the visa merchant person acquire reprogram VPI in all and as always places for us to and like bag is day radio on apple I tunes YouTube spot. Fai in many other free download services just to receive new episodes, really really appreciate your feedback. And all that continue support. Please keep bringing it in and thanks again. And stay tuned for another Rooney bad guys day radio at thank you. Thanks for listening to ruin a bad guys day radio podcast with skip Myers. If you liked our show, these tell your friends and colleagues, you can learn more about us and ruin bed guys date hot com or visit us on Twitter and Facebook at ruin bad guys day. Join us for another episode of Ruina bad guys day radio podcast. The information provided in ruin Abed guys day radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not be considered legal or financial advice. You should consult with legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

fraud Scott Adams VPI friendly fraud VP skip Myers visa fraud VP and finance Ford Brindley Frossard Merson Mercer Bax Therese Rudy
Catch of the Day: Eleven Individuals from Lagos, Nigeria Indicted for Conspiring to Commit Wire Fraud

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

16:41 min | 2 years ago

Catch of the Day: Eleven Individuals from Lagos, Nigeria Indicted for Conspiring to Commit Wire Fraud

"Welcome to ruin a back is day radio podcast with fraud expert skip buyers. This is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best fraud prevention solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team and held on prosecute criminals. Now, here's your host skip buyers. Welcome to ruin a bad guys day radio network. This is Scott Myers. Reporting on the catch of the day. And today's catch the day comes from the United States Justice department Levin. Individuals from Lagos Nigeria have been indicted for conspiracy to commit wire fraud in Jacksonville, Florida, United States. Attorney Maria Lopez announces the return of an indictment charging numerous individuals from Nigeria with conspiracy to commit wire fraud, if convicted each person faces a maximum penalty of twenty years in federal prison, according to the indictment the defendants all Nigerian citizens targeted multiple US corporations, phishing emails requesting that the company's payroll or human resources personnel, sin IRS forms w two. Containing employees personal identifying information for their review the use spoofed Email addresses which marked. In mass the actual Email addresses making it appear as if the message was sent from a higher level manager within the victim companies. So let's talk about Email spoofing, we talked about this sometimes in the past on other podcasts in Email spoofing, and phishing while this is really a huge thing right now really making the news. A lot of this is connected to some of these large data breaches we seen in the recent past. But as you recall, it Email spoofing is the forgery of an Email header or Email information. So that the message appears to have originated from someone or somewhere other than the actual source. Yeah. That makes sense, right? So Email spoofing is a tactic used by bad guys in phishing and spam campaigns because people are more likely to open an Email when they think in believe has been sent from a legitimate source or remember from the past podcast, we talked about fishing and some of these. Are more directed what we're talking about right now spearfishing type attempts where it's more personalized is directed to you. It looks legitimate and is asking for a call to action is asking for information is probably again, an urgent matter that these guys want you to attend to in a in a timely fashion. So they're trying to make do something very quickly. So that they can obtain some more personal identifiable information to get through this scheme. So the information goes on to say that numerous companies around the United States were victimized by the sophisticated scheme, including a local Jacksonville, Florida based business the defendants once they obtain the tens of thousands of employees w two forms. Use the information to file false federal income tax returns with the IRS claiming millions of dollars in fraudulent refunds so to receive the fraudulent tax refunds generator from the scheme. The defendants us individuals in the United States to accept the proceeds and then send the money back to Lagos Nigeria and many essences these individuals assisting in the United States were victims of a romance scheme whereby the defendants developed online, relationships using fake social media outlet. So let's talk about romance fraud or romance scheme. Very interesting. This happens quite a bit out there with all the information available on social media between Facebook and Twitter and other social platforms, but romance schemes and romance fraud. Really sometimes happens often on face Facebook, where victims will friend other suspects unknowingly without verifying, some sort of bogus claim that they have a mutual friend. And they start exchanging information read each other's, walls and information and photos, they would start posting things. They will. Like others. They serve building this relationship and sooner or later, they searched sharing emails and then start sharing pictures in his all about the Frossard developing this relationship, so this is pretty much standard operating procedure for romance type schemers or scammers who will assume another person's identity to trick victim, and they make themselves out to be an average Lucan type guy or gal, you know. They don't really try to go overboard in exaggerate who they are. And what they do. They wanna be kinda average in kind of fit in. And so that they're more believable. So again, the scammers intention here is to establish a quick relationship with someone endear themselves to that victim, obviously gain that trust in sometimes these people actually propose marriage, and then really what they end up doing is as some point they'll try to make plans to meet in person to get closer and share information, and, you know, become more friendly, but aloft in times that. Never happens that the bag is just too busy. And that just never happens. But eventually they build a relationship part of the romance scheme. Here is that they will ask the victim for money in according to the FBI's internet crime complaint center, which is three which provides all of us, a means of reporting internet type of crimes, especially romance scams like this one and sometimes are also called confidence fraud result actually in the highest amount of financial losses to victims wing compared to other crimes kind of sad. Isn't it? Everyone's looking for that great relationship with somebody. And so many people seem to be lonely, pretty unfortunate. But actually, I'm going to read some things from the actual indictment from the just Justice department into reads like this Vic victim one was a company that provided transportation services and logistics with his headquarters in Jacksonville, Florida. In addition victim one other corporations located across the. The country were targeted by this conspiracy. In addition to the corporate victims more than thirteen hundred other employees of corporate victim number one in Jacksonville, Florida had their personal identifying information including forms including the W twos. Those were stolen identified with actual individual victims. So the indictment actually goes onto explain the terminology behind this conspiracy to commit fraud, which they term as a business Email compromise. And they explain as many of you know, it is a type of fraudulent scheme targeting businesses in a business Email compromise uses among other things Email spoofing to obtain confidential business information, so the scam cured out by among other things creating spoofed Email addresses that appear to be legitimate Email accounts in using that spoofed Email address. S two fraudulently induced an employee there to revive personal identifying information like a pin number account number something else to open up another part of an Email or some other account to get more personal information. So again, Email spoofing refers the act of altering and emails information. So that the Email appears to the recipient to come from different Email address other than the one that has actually being sent from. What does that really mean? In this case, they had nightmares explains. It really the goals of this conspiracies all tied together with this spoofing in the Email compromise conspiracy here, but it was the goal of this conspiracy for these defendants and their co-conspirators here in the United States to enrich themselves by using this business Email compromise to trick this victim company and other companies into emailing their employees, personal identifiable information to the defendants and co conspirators and then. In using that information to file fraudulent tax returns with the IRS which falsely claimed millions of dollars in tax refunds. So the manner in means of this whole conspiracy really played out by these defendants and their co conspirators maze of exchange different targeted lists that detail the names of United States corporations, including this one particular corporation in Jacksonville, Florida in the name and Email address of each corporation's chief executive or chief financial officer in the name in Email dress of a payroll or human resources employee information that these co conspirators here could use a Curie out the business Email compromise scheme further part of the conspiracy was that the fence and their co-conspirators created these spoofed Email addresses, obviously, it made it easy for them to fake out these employees at these companies, so these appear to be legit. Like, I said before legitimate Email addresses associated with different executives within this company this corporation and other victim corporation. So a lot of this is included in what we've talked about before other podcasts, and you should really really be familiar with this type of scheme and educate other employees within your organization, but is often called, and it doesn't say it here, but it's often caused CEO fraud targeted spear fishing so see you fraud, again, our CEO fishing is a scam. Which is what they're describing here in which cybercriminals spoof company emails, and then they impersonate these executives to try and fool someone else within the organization, either an accounting and finance or HR into executing unauthorized wire transfer or sitting out other confidential tax information pin numbers and anything else and open up an account. So think about so these other employees within the company, we'll get an Email. That they thought or think and believe it came from the of the c o directing them to do something like a wild wire transfer, and because they believe the Email, and it looks legitimate. And they're not to ask a lot of questions. They go head and carried it out. And it's a very very, you know, great scheme here by the bad guys because we're praying on all this misinformation, and and really had have gray scheme where these emails look like legitimate people within an organization, especially people that are executives. So again, this this particular case was investigated by the F B I cyber squad and the Internal Revenue Service criminal investigation division in its current being prosecuted by assistant United States attorney Jay Taylor. I believe there in Florida. So very interesting case. But really, the the me in potatoes of this case are really again fishing in this case, it's spearfishing is. A targeted Email that looks legitimate in this case looks like it's coming from within this organization being directed from someone like a CEO CFO's, you know, and then in that Email, which looks legitimate is being sent to someone else within payroll or finance or human resources requesting additional information that will unlock a bigger account opin or some other information. So these guys can use his information and then the fraud the IRS with fraudulent tax returns. So let's think about this. So this is a bigger scheme a lot of people call this wailing. So I don't know if you guys have heard wailing before but wailing attacks work because executives often, don't participate, insecurity wariness programs, you know, with their company, which is unfortunate. So you know to counter that threat in the risk of CO fraud, ac- CO fishing, you know, all company personnel and people within your organization, everyone should be part of an ongoing security awareness training. For this specific type of fraud scheme that way, you're familiar with what the possibilities of being afforded are. And then in this case, what's interesting to me. No, one of these companies said, hey, wait a minute press. Pas and let me go talk to my boss and see this as legit because you know, my CEO's never asked me to transfer money before to somebody or the CFO's never asked me to release pin numbers personal information on employees before. So maybe there's other things going on in different organizations that do not have an open communication policy, and he in the bag ice really prey on that prey on the business of organizations, and I guess really the lack of communication than a lot of companies have so was really important here. This is a great case FBI in IRAs. Great job investigating this coming together. Collectively collecting this information on a very big international criminal enterprise involving individuals have way cross world, Nigeria and then co conspirators. Located here in the United States. Very interesting case, it's still developing as far as the mala defendants. I didn't read off all the definitive so many involved here both internationally in here in the United States. But again, this is a very dynamic cases still evolving, but the really the lessons. Here are is to is through awareness and communication within your organization. If you do not have security awareness program in your in the on your in particular fraud team, if you're in human resources are in the finance department or fraud prevention get with those folks in your organization get with him and start creating a security worthiness program that really if assizes what to look for with suspicious emails, and there could be a way within your organization that your IT team or someone else can't actually tag certain emails that originate from outside your organization as something as such beware of this Email did not originate from. In internal communication that. Right. There will add a little extra awareness for the recipient to scrutinize Email little bit closer, maybe asset extra question and get someone else involved before it's too late and the exposed their company to a greater so again hats off to the FBI and the IRS org on this and the assistant United States attorney. They're prosecuting. This case is a great example hell, collectively different organizations come together to ruin a bad guys day. More information can be obtained through FBI dot gov. And if you have any internet crime type questions or you need to report a complaint where you may be involved with a phishing scheme a romance scheme. Something dealing with the whaling attack contact the FBI, or as part of the FBI you have the internet crime center, which is high c3 dot gov. Ic- three dot gov. You can report that report the complaint all the particular information is needed there to help them investigate this. And you can see what happens people come together to bag is day. Thank you. Everybody. Thanks for listening to blue in a bad guys Dame radio podcast with skip Myers. If you liked our show, these tell your friends and colleagues, you can learn more about us and ruin a bed guys date hot call or visit us on Twitter and Facebook at Ruina at guys day. Join us for another episode of Ruina bad guys day radio podcast. The information provided in ruin a bad guys day radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not be considered legal or financial advice. You should consult legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

fraud IRS United States Florida FBI Jacksonville wire fraud Nigeria Scott Myers Lagos Facebook assistant United States attorn CEO Twitter Maria Lopez Justice department Levin Attorney forgery
Trumps voter fraud fraud

ACLU Civil Liberties Minute

01:30 min | 2 years ago

Trumps voter fraud fraud

"Donald Trump is claiming that voter fraud in the United States, quote all over the country is rampant and quote back with the facts in seven seconds. Listen up this matters. I'm Lewis black. And this is the civil liberties minute with ACO, you attorney Bill Newman in two thousand twelve Florida election officials claim to have identified a hundred and eighty six thousand non-citizens registered to vote, but then that claim was scrutinized and the one hundred eighty six thousand number that was reduced by ninety nine percent to two thousand six hundred and twenty-five possible non-citizens on the roles, but then that list was examined and it turned out that that list to was riddled with errors and was wildly exaggerated. So that at the end of the investigation only eighty five people in Florida total were removed from the rolls out of a total of twelve million voters. Let's review out of twelve million voters in total eighty five. Persons were improperly registered to vote for one reason or another the same basic story is now being repeated in Texas with apparently the same result the bottom line the claim of voter fraud is a fraud meant to justify voter suppression and foster racism and target immigrants and naturalized eligible to vote citizens. The civil liberties minute is made possible by the American Civil Liberties union because freedom camp defend itself.

American Civil Liberties union Florida Donald Trump fraud ACO Lewis black Bill Newman United States Texas attorney ninety nine percent seven seconds
How to Protect Your Identity During the Holidays

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

30:44 min | 2 years ago

How to Protect Your Identity During the Holidays

"Welcome to ruin a bad guys day radio podcast with fraud. Experts. Skip buyers. This is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best fraud prevention solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team and held on prosecute criminals. Now, here's your host skip Myers. Hello everyone. You're listening to ruin a bag is day radio podcast in today were taught about protecting your identity during the holidays during the holidays gets really busy, the hustle and bustle, and sometimes we can get a little careless with how we surf the internet in. How we go about. No using our personal information in a broader sense to where you know, we get careless and not really understand the vulnerability. We have when we are on the internet, especially with our mobile devices was interesting is that a lot of people don't really understand the risk involved with these in your smartphone or your tablet in understand that those devices are really computers in your hand and those computers those mobile devices are always susceptible to the same risk as your desktop computer and are inherently risky during transactions that are dot. It'd online so when you're shopping or banking or sharing your personal information on Facebook or Twitter or Lincoln, or whatever, you know, you should use those same precautions that you would with any other device. So that you protect your identity from those prion is especially hackers who want to steal your identity exploited online. So the mobile world is very susceptible to hackers. I mean, especially if you travel a lot like a lot of us do in the fraud business or the who are not in the fraud business, if you travel, no when you're in airports, yonder WI fi access points, you're maybe a coffee shops or restaurants, and even in hotels who offer wifi sorta talk a little bit about today. How to do some basic things some basic tips on wanna give you guys today to protect your identity, especially when you're traveling in Durham these holidays. So we'll have some more podcasts about protecting your. Entity in the identity theft Ristic's that bag is exploited in another podcast. But I just thought it would be important going into the holidays, especially the first week in December the recording this now kind of get a head start on this before you get too busy and forget about how important is to safeguard your identity in. How important is understand that the bad guys are really out there this time of year to exploit those weaknesses with our mobile devices. So first thing I would always like to bring out. A malware amazed when I travel and I'm sitting in airport in I'm looking at the wifi all the different wifi hotspots that are available and how quickly so many people jump on the free wifi in a lot of folks don't even understand what they're connecting to. They're not even thinking about the security or they're assuming that the security through that wifi connection. Whatever it is. They're connecting to is secure in legitimate in while, you know, it's kind of concerning because you the trust factor there, y you trusting this free wifi, not even knowing who's even set it up. I guess you trust it because it's the airport in somehow the airports was to be a trustworthy place but really use precaution. Using those free wifi networks to conduct your personal business, you know, through your company or your personal business through banking or shopping online because those wifi networks, especially in the airports, and those different restaurants or the little coffee shops or other publications that have those free wifi hotspots present themselves as an opportunity for for hackers or bad guys to intercept some of that sensitive information that you're sharing and they can see everything that you're doing because you're. For on what you believed to be a legitimate wifi hotspot is actually could be a bad guy in the in the immediate area sniffing out all your personal information because you have basically logged onto a wifi site that bag I set up to do one thing in steal your personal information. So understand that when you're selecting those wifi hotspots, are you sure to whom or what you are connecting to so one of the biggest precautions are not precautions, I guess so much or thought she should have is that if you're really traveling lot in airports and hotels or coffee shops wanna make use of the free wifi. That's fine. But I recommend that you use a VPN to do that in a VPN is virtual private network VPN in enables you the user the customer to send and receive data over the internet, while keeping your identity in data secure while online, so. Wifi or free internet hotspots, the hotels and the airport's shops. They're not secure in offer zero encryption security to you the user or the customer. So if you use a public wifi they connect to your personal VPN. So that your private information, your identity, your password, browsing history anything that you go online to Bank on your role in k anything that you would, sir. Share in a personal nature us at why that debt virtual private network VPN. So that your information is encrypted in hidden from those hackers. So in the podcast description. You'll see some top VPN services that I recommend in some of those offer some really great deals, but really it's it is very low cost feature to really safeguard your personal information will go into further. Detail later in another podcast about the different VPN services. What they provide in don't provide. There's some that are really not as safe, and there's some really more geared toward maybe gamers or of folks who are online streaming movies, and such but for the casual user customer like yourself, who's traveling you can use a very good VPN service at a low cost. So we'll go into that more the links to some of those really good VPN services will be again provided in the podcast description, also too when you're traveling a lot of times, we leave that bluetooth connection on that are are bluetooth enabled device. It's it's on and don't really recommend keeping that on all the time because same thing hackers or bag is can see any device on their on their device as. Well that has their bluetooth enabled. So there's so many different kinds of bluetooth enabled devices from keyboards to now your headphones earpieces, but let's it's it's your phone itself. And and lot of people to have connected devices the of the bluetooth, which are their watches. You have your I watched the apple and Samsung got different watches the galaxy frontier watches, you know. You know, which connect be blue to to their phone. So they're constantly connected. Receiving text messages in Email alerts and so forth. But however, cybercriminals have the capability to pair with your phones open bluetooth connection when you're not using it, and they can do that in a way that allows them to steal your personal information. So was one of the best safeguards. Especially if you don't keep your wife, are bluetooth active is safe cars is just understanding that that Bagai could be nearby in can see what networks you've you've connected to before in what they do they'll spoof them and then trick your phone into connecting to the wifi bluetooth devices that hackers carry around with them. And then once they're connected to your phone in the heck hackers can can start in a fraudulent way inundating near device with malware or other software. So that they can still your data in spy on you and understand, you know, your browsing habits your different sites are connecting to like your banks, for instance, or your company website in instill that information exploited in some really quick blue to security tips, a jotted down here before the podcast was make sure you configure devices. So that you the user has. Her prove any connection requests. So I personally have a Samsung galaxy three smartwatch connected to my Android device. No one can. Lincoln other bluetooth device BMI phone in less. I approve it. So there has to be a connection requests what I'm in an airport or a restaurant or something else that where I'm in general, pulling alternative the bluetooth on my phone in on my watch just flat out turn it up off. Also ensure that the discovery mode is in abled only one is necessary to pair other trusted devices. So if you get a smart watch, you'll have the turn on your phone. So that it is in discovery. Most would sees it in the lousy you to approve that connection requests also trusted devices should be paired in just safe environments and out of the reach of Melissa militias elements. In other words, you wouldn't want appear that device in the public at an airport in a coffee shop or at the hotel. Also, there's some devices that will allow you to minimize the range of that device of. Bluetooth connection in. Sometimes they allow you to have that shortest reasonable distance of your watched you really need to have the range on your watch bluetooth enabled device. The range be outside of your immediate space and also consider on your telephone or your cellphone installing some sort of antivirus or personal false of our wall software. So that you can help disable the chances of any hackers getting instill stealing your personal identification information. One one big thing too. I notice all the time when I travel I see so many folks, obviously their devices are losing power, and they got to connect to something to power up. And I mean, they choose that USB connection that so that they can charge their their personal devices specially their phones, and do you really know what you're connecting to sure that's USB charging device, but hackers have been known to do what they do agai- stations use some sort of skimming device. So you think you're you're charging your phone a USB device, but there could be something on the other end of that charging station at the airport terminal or that USB charging station that could be at a business or at the library, or wherever else offers that technology to charge your device, it the other end of that could be actually a computer another device as actually downloading information off your cellphone. So connect. Eating a mobile device to computer using a USB cable. You know, generally. I mean normally just allows the software running on that computer to interact with phone in ways that you allow, but it's the same way if you have a bad guy that's at the other end of that USB connection. It could be the bad guys device who's actually interacting with your phone in ways that you would never end -ticipant. So as a result that malicious computer gang excess to all your sensitive information in your data in then install different Mamie militias software amount were on your phone. So just think about that when you're connecting to USB charging device in a public environment in really understand what what might be at the other end of that in some of the terms in in the bag guy world, they call this juice, jacking. So there you think you're juicing your phone with charging. But they're calling juice jacking. So they're using a USB device to go in there and still your personal information because I that computer device that they're using concealed within the public charging station somewhere that you don't you won't see, of course. So those are some great tips right there when you're traveling. So what I recommend that you should do is just make sure you take that charging device, you're, you know, the use the electrical outlet to charge your cellphone white when you're at the airport or even better take one of those battery packs pre-charge recharge it when you're on the go in winning needed charge. Your cellphone used at device, do not use the USB charging station in a public place. Also during the holidays, we're gonna be inundated with phishing scams bag is don't be sending us all kinds of phishing emails, and those of y'all are under wondering what the heck am I talking about fishing, what's fishing while fishing is win a scammer uses fraudulent emails or text messages or sometimes copycat websites. Get you to share your personal information such as your account numbers. I mean emails, of course, social security numbers, you're logging ID's passwords in they use that information to still other information from you special your money going into your Bank accounts, and so forth or sometimes just user entity to go on to bigger and better things for themselves, so scammers use those phishing. Emails also to try to get access to your actual computer network. And then what they'll try to do is install some ransomware type programs. That will go in there. Basically lock you out of certain files of your computer in exploit all your personal information was interesting, I can share some. Phishing emails that I've actually received lately in an here's some re reading off my cell phone right here in love, these come in as urgent requests. There's something that that they're saying that I did that I needed to do something now to fix so as soon be a call to action type Email in a lot is a an urgent Email. So in this case, it would be something to this effect restarting your membership. So here's a net. Flicks. Phishing Email were sorry to say goodbye. Hello. I tunes lit us know that you asked to cancel your membership. We've cancel your membership effective as of Tuesday. Obviously, we love to have you back if you change your mind simply restart your membership in that is a hyper link. Does that is underlined? So if I hover over there with my cursor, I can see the actual website that is on a take me to. But most people don't do that that just click on it because they're worried about their membership getting cancel so the rest of the Email go so simply re start your membership. That's the hyperlink to enjoy the best TV shows in louis's without interruption in a nice red button restarts for membership. You click there in the will take you most likely to the bad guys website where you'll reenter some personal information thinking that it's actually a Netflix account. This is very very common. This urgent reply Email to get you to go back to the site that you think you already have and reactivate your account. Another really good one too is UPS and the UPS phishing Email where it will say something like, you missed delivery and. Lot of times. What is it? It'd be dressed to you somehow somewhere your Email got compromise. Your name in the address this phishing Email to you, personally, Belichick. No say, hey skip. This is a follow up regarding your packets delivering tracking number in. It's gonna be a number that looks like a long tracking number, but guess what another hyper-link in that will take you to the bag eyesight. This pack is contained the above mentioned a Shimin in was not accepted at the destination. Address police context contact us immediately at the UPS office in provide the postal delivery information included with this Email. Thanks very much. So as soon as you click on that tracking number that's a hyperlink your device or wherever you on your desktop your phone. However, you're on the internet when you're looking at this phishing Email, you'll be mealy taken to this bag is website. And most likely just by doing that you'll be infected with some sort of. Aware. Another good one that I've seen here lately. Coming into my own personal emails is a banks banking emails phishing emails that looked like a real Bank in this case would be like confirm your account. So you everyone's probably seen some of these. But you'll see something like this. The the the bag is on a fish. This Email will say something like this because of an unusual number or invalid log in attempts on your account. We have to believe that there might be some security problem with your account now on this particular, phishing Email was interesting. So when I said, we have to believe that there might be some there is misspell it's their T H E I R instead of T H E R E, so whoever this hacker is obviously not very educated or very smart with doing spelling grammar correction on their PC. But anyway when you. Read these emails, and again, these are urging called action emails in there hoping that you're gonna miss some of these little mistakes in their grammar spelling, but look for some some of these things is really something legit. Did you really log in that many times or did you try to log in or not so in the bag is are preying on your sense of urgency to correct this problem through these emails in again, this same sort of Email has a hyperlink by hover over it is not to Wells Fargo, it's to some sort of other account. Now, it may look like Wells Fargo at first it may have a misspelling or doesn't spell Wells Fargo at in a normal fashion. There may be an underscore dash or or special character in between. But it's not a legitimate Email from Wells Fargo also was interesting to some of the other ones from my friends who are heavy on pay pal Fisher's love the us pay. Talent emails to send out and try to get you to click on a link. So another phishing scheme would be a your account is now suspended. We need your help reactivating your count your account has been suspended as an error has been detected with your information. The reason for the air is not certain, but for security reasons, we have suspending your account temporarily we need you to update your information for further use on your pay pal count in a nice, really well configured form here with this Email that looks like it's from pay Pels. Nice little blue boxes of button. In says update your information will you hover over that. Again. This not pay pallets is the bag is information. But once you click on that if you're if you're not paying attention, you're gonna be reentering a lot of personal information that the bad guys steal from you. So don't fall victim to some of these phishing emails of this year during this holiday season because I'm telling you there. Una be quite a few of those coming into your inbox at work in at home. So let's follow up a little bit more on how to protect your identity during this holiday season in a lot of this is all again, like I said don't be a Senate around stealing your personal information. So the so certain accounts that belonged to you can be compromised by the bad guy. So if you think at some point one of your account has been compromised, your credit cards, your Bank, your 4._0._1._K, actually anything. Make sure you call those banks. No, the credit card companies let you know that you believe somebody's hacked into your account. In is what's really important is time is at the essence reporting that fraud in a timely manner helps minimize the impact unless you're personalized -bility. And there could be some. So if you are a victim of identity theft. You know, there's a lot of helpful information on a government website. And if you have. Pen handy write this down. So you can go to WWW dot ID theft up in ide- T, H E F, T dot gov. A lot of great information that website about how to protect your entity. A lot of information about what you should do. In case you're identities been compromised by the bag is. For the rest of you who don't travel so much. There's a lot of tips. I like to share with you about protecting your identity during the holiday season, even from home. So always make sure when you're surfing the net, you know, go use legitimate sites when you're shopping online, of course, that's a no brainer. Right skip. What why are you telling me that? Well, there are some signs on UPC in your browser that will help you when to determine whether or not this is a really safe site. So a website that is secure will have an ace T T P S before the web ad the URL. So look for that ace T T P S in the web address in an icon. A there's a little icon up there to the same time as have a locked padlock in click on that and see some the security credentials with that website. If that website does not have an HTTPS information's not being encrypted in his not as safe. As it could be so use caution when you go to website without in HTTPS. Also, again, it goes back earlier when you're public area, you know, use a secure network, you know, when shopping online again, I'm gonna say again because I really believe us avoid those public wifi hotspot connections. You know, all that digital information. That belongs you is transmitted over the internet or stored on all kinds of different connected devices. And if you're on particular websites that requires certain personal information, sometimes, you know, again, it's your social security number your credit card numbers. Sometimes is your driver's license. Those things can be compromised in an unsecure network. So again in consider installing and using a VPN virtual private network when you connect your private life. I in again, some of that information's on be contained inside the podcast description on my site there. So also remember too that your your phones and computers are gateways to your personal information. So make sure they're protected with those really strong passwords in no keep reusing that same password over over again, I was reading the other day in security publication. And this is just mind boggling that the number. One password that's compromised by most people is. Elo, you probably guessed it is the word password on my gosh. So don't use password as your password bad guys, try that. I because I know this probably good success rate in guessing someone's passer by just entering password. When the experts really talk about saying used strong passers what they're meaning is used passwords that that are long using both upper and lower case and special character and numbers in your password. The more variations that you can use within your password makes it much harder to crack if us all for case and just numbers your chances are getting hacked are much higher. But if you use lower case upper case special characters numbers in you in you use of the length up to ten to twelve there's probably millions of millions of communist combinations for that passer. So you're that's gonna be a very strong passer. So think about using that or a pass phrase that you can remember and use special characters and upper lower case characters. Well, be careful what you share online. What's really interesting to me, family members even this day after being advised by yours? Truly share their personal information on a lot of those sites like Facebook. And and some of those Facebook sites have actually have people who are out of the country make -ation in let let the whole world know that only to be surprised when they come home that the front door of their house has been kicked in and they've been burglarized. So no, be careful what kind of information you share online. It's out there for the rule to see. And you surely don't want a criminal to know that you're halfway around the world. On vacation. Another good tip them the holidays. Try to use cash as much as often or credit cards over your debit card. Credit cards provide a lot more protection against fraudulent activity than debit cards credit card companies usually monitor suspicious activity as well about she is sometimes you're in the holidays, if I'm out shopping a lot I can tell that my credit card company must have some sort of velocity filter. If I'm using my car several times a small period of time or during a certain dollar mouse or being exceeded sometimes while I'm saying the. You know, my car will be Klein, and I'll be required to call the credit card company to release the funds in verify personal information. So try not to use your debit cards because your debit card it immediately redraws money from your count and debit cards. Do not offer the same level of protection like credit cards do. One other thing too. So just be Larry to as you know. A lot of bad guys are using different means to steal your personal information. So skimmers skimmers will be deployed more gas stations than ever. I mean, it's a great way for bad. Guys. Steal your credit card information in just be leery of that because skimmers are out there at different places in their attached to card readers or sometimes even ATM's at that. That are there for one thing in to steal your financial information. You know, what's interesting to just never be too careful to be sure you're aware of your surroundings. Watch out for that person that standing behind you, you know, at that ATM when you're entering your passcode. Just just be real careful traffic conceal that Pasco that you're entering into your AT or your pin number into that ATM in. Lastly, make sure you check your statements in credit card reports this time of year. Any suspicious activity any unusual transactions? No, please, call your credit card company, mealy or your Bank. You know, always check over those credit card statements, and then again to what's great what you should at least once a year. I recommend is is checking your credit report for any other unusual accounts that have been open, you know, a lot of times during these high shopping Pierce of the year like the holiday season. I we're talking about bad guys really don't be hitting all cylinders stealing people's personal identities in open Bank accounts, applying for credit and such. So just remain very vigilant in inquire about any suspicious activity that you don't. That you don't recognize. So we're gonna continue this podcast by going little more deeper in further episodes concerning fishing, really what that really looks like giving you some real world examples on what to do. And how to report that would really don't dive into a little bit more about karting, and again carding does you don't know what Carden is cartoons pretty much the network that's out there to to steal or sell personal information like credit card numbers and social security numbers and things like that for bad guys, and how all this really fits together because his is about a criminal enterprise network out there this exists for one reason as to still your personal information for financial grain. So hope you enjoyed this episode. And we look forward to talking to you soon. Thank you very much and have a great day in ruin a bad guys day. Thanks for listening to you in a bad guys day radio podcast with skip Myers. If you show these tell your friends and colleagues, you can learn more about us and ruin a bad guys date. Hot call our visit us on Twitter and Facebook at Ruina bad guys day. Join us for another episode of Ruina bad guys day radio podcast. The information provided and ruin Abed guys day radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not be considered legal or financial advice. You should consult legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

Bank fraud Facebook Myers Samsung Twitter Durham
Is Voter Fraud a Fraud?

Stuff They Don't Want You To Know Audio

1:07:08 hr | 2 years ago

Is Voter Fraud a Fraud?

"In two thousand four in a tiny town. A young woman named Rebecca Gould was brutally murdered nearly fifteen years later her killer is still on the loose. It's just really surreal walking around. Ideal. Mention so much fear too is out there. Dude. I'm Katherine towns. And this is Helen gone now. Available on apple podcasts. To psychic powers and government. Conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events you can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't go to know. Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt the Colby Ben we are joined with our super producer Paul deck. And most importantly, your you. You are here. And that makes this the stuff. They don't want you to know. Cocoa fernandez. Yes, that's true met. Our story begins today with an anecdote cocoa Fernandez. That's a CEO CEO. A Fernandez is a registered voter or was a registered voter for short time for a short time. Pretty recently in Palm Beach county. It's West Palm Beach Florida where my inlaws reside. That's true. That's one of the things that are most well known for beach in this in this show, these so. You know at basis being registered to vote is a good thing. Yeah. I turn eighteen you send your registration in. Oh my gosh. I can vote my first election cocoa. You're doing it. Right. You too can wait in line. Right. You can have a say in some of the biggest elections that exist in our country. You can sort of have a say we'll get into it. Okay. You're you're saying might not be as direct as you think? But it is important and cocoa. We can guess probably didn't understand the importance of voting. Registering to vote because you see cocoa is. In addition to being a resident of Florida a poodle. Oh, yeah. So how did that happen? Well, according to Palm Beach county election supervisor Teresa Lepore criminal activity got this dog on Palm Beach county's voter rolls. Oh, somebody signed the dog up and she asked the state attorney to investigate whether Coco's owner a lady named Wendy Albert or someone else fraudulently filled out the election car to embarrass. Teresa Lepore 's office cocoa got on the voter rolls in July of that year. This kind of crime if you are convicted of it carries a maximum five-year prison term in a five thousand dollar fine. Lepore says she suspects Wendy Albert of. Doing this fraudulent registration. I wonder what I d she used it doesn't say that in the story here. Like who who said, okay. This cocoa of Fernandez this looks like your identification. Okay. You're in now Albert for her part at the time. The story broke didn't say which of her friends. She thought was the suspect but she denied any wrongdoing. And she is pretty bothered that CoCo who is by all accounts, a great dog, but still a dog she she's bothered by the fact that the dog got a voter card in the first place. She says it's kind of scary with all the problems we've had in Palm Beach county, even a dog can vote. This is the same Palm Beach, by the way. If you're familiar with the two thousand US presidential election is the same Palm Beach was home to the butterfly ballot and became the focus of all these legal battles and protests is um hanging chads. They're in different thing. I can't remember who is a weird couple of days now for the record for better or worse. As far as we know cocoa Fernandez has not actually voted registered, but not not a voter. And it brings us to one of the strangest parts of US government history. The voting system right on paper met the US voting system. Sounds like a pretty solid idea. Right. It's pretty appealing. Yeah. One citizen one vote. And then we count them all up and whoever has the most you win. There we go right short sweet simple. And most importantly neutral and fair. There are a couple of things that interfere with this process on paper and often someone say more often than not the process in practice is not the process on paper. So we wanted to open with an anecdote that sounds ridiculous. Once was. Sure, you fellow conspiracy realist that this is not an isolated incident. Dogs are voting everywhere in this country, his left and right. No, literally politically for the left and the right? So if if you are US citizen as you said met, generally speaking in theory and get one vote per person to make your voice heard. Now, there are a lot of complications that arise with this for differing reasons. Right. One of the biggest ones was recently reported in last week tonight. A great show by John Oliver in his writing staff is the idea of felons voting because in several states, you cannot vote if you have been convicted of a felony and there in states where there's a process to regain your right to vote often, those processes are are pretty difficult to get through, you know. Well, and can we go in? Hit an example now, but should we? Let's let's one. Yeah. All right. Well, let's just speaking of felons who are voting. Let's go to the case of crystal Mason. She is a convicted felon. She went to prison for some tax fraud issues. And then after she got out of prison in two thousand sixteen she attempted to vote for the presidential election or vote in the presidential election. And according to her attorneys, she she had no idea that she could not vote as a convicted felon and her name was not on the ballots when she went to go and vote, so she she casts a provisional ballot at I believe, it was her church, and then she got caught up, and she's now or she was at least in June of twenty eighteen she was on trial, and she ended up being sentenced to five years in prison for voting illegally because she was a felon on probation five years in prison for attempting to vote as a felon. So I guess the idea here. That that measure of giving five years in prison to an individual trying to vote who is a felon is like don't try that again. I guess I'm kind of preventative measure as a scare tactic kind of thing because I don't know not to cast judgment on it. Either way that's pretty harsh sentence, right and state by state these sorts of laws differ. We highly recommend that you watch the John Oliver piece, which largely centers on Florida. But also check out the information in your own state. Right. And it doesn't matter whether or not you're felon. It's important to know, these sorts of things and. Look, there's another complication to that. We mentioned just a second ago while you can vote for or against certain policy changes in local elections, like if you go to vote and your local election, and you see a tax Bill or zoning issue or something in federal elections. He never directly vote on policy know, what exactly is going to happen. Right. Instead, you vote to elect representatives who will again in theory represent the wishes and concerns of your community at a national level. That's why this is known as a Representative democracy. So for instance, if super producer Paul is running for Senate and happens to be running for the state in which we vote we don't get to vote on all the things that Senator super producer Paul snakes gain longer than the Senator super producer Paul will deal with on a day to day thing or in a legislative session. We can write letters to him. We can go to fund raisers. We can ask him to do things we can raise money for him. We can raise money for him. But we are not in the room where it happens to to borrow the Hamilton line. Anyhow that that does still seem pretty simple, right? You may not be directly affecting lot of policy. But you are you still have agency if you're voter cajoled choosing the person who again in theory will represent the interests of yourself as a voter and of your community. It's pretty simple, right? But wait as Billy Mays was wont to say, there's more right met. Oh, yeah. Especially in the case of the presidential election system. The thing that becomes the massive event that occurs every four years usually in this country. There are two separate types of voter counts. And we've discussed this before a little bit. The first is a popular vote. That's the one that we've been discussing this whole time one person one vote everyone cast that vote. Everybody gets counted. And that in the final number is what the popular vote is the other thing. It's that electoral college vote, it's a little strange. This is this is where it gets complicated to the level of I need somebody to explain this to me, please. So it's a very small subsection of voters. So if you think of the millions of human beings, and citizens they live in the United States who are voters will that all the way down to five hundred thirty something I believe in the last election. It was five hundred thirty eight. In within this five hundred and thirty eight people you just need a majority of them to win the presidency. According to the electoral college vote so in this case with five hundred thirty eight you need a majority of two hundred seventy now. You're this gets even more complicated shirt, the number of electoral votes that your state gets equals the number of congressional members for your state. So for each member in the house of representatives, you get that many plus two more and those that's for your senators, obviously because every state gets two senators, but that's your electoral college votes. So it's essentially like counting all the people in congress in both houses, and then saying those people vote right sort of. Yeah. But it's not those people voting it's just that number of people voting your yet because the people who cast the electoral votes are chosen in different ways by parties. They're not those folks aren't elected in the same way that elected official is elected, which I no sounds very strange sounds, very Orwellian, some are more equal than others, etc. A because it is let's just say that it is. It's got a a lot of prob. Uh-huh. It leaves room for manipulation of a much smaller group of people, and there are people who on on both sides of the aisle who will raise very valid points about how the electoral system could be improved. But not everybody agrees on how that would happen. We will do an episode on the electoral college in the future. But for now, let's just keep it at this. There are two voting systems for the presidential election. And you if you are US voter directly vote only in one of those, and that's where we see all this controversy that arises when someone says I object to insert president name here because they won the electoral vote, but they did not win the popular vote or something. Because those things don't always jibe and today, we're focusing on that we're focusing on the popular vote. It's not going to be a snooze fest. We promise you this is going to be both interesting and important, and it's going to. Hinge on your input at the end. Folks, we desperately need and welcome your help for this. We're focused on the popular vote. Particularly that time every four years when you specifically you if you're part of the let's say about fifty eight percents little more than fifty eight percent of eligible voters who voted during the twenty sixteen election. We're focusing on that time every four years when you actually vote cast your ballot and make your opinions known because as it turns out just that just your vote is the subject of numerous massive conspiracy theories. So here are the facts, I feel like it's not spoiling anything. I don't think anybody's going to be surprised to hear that the US voting system has enormous problems and listeners based outside of the US. Thanks for coming stick with his promise. This will not be a big jargonese slog for you. This'll be interesting for you to astonish in amaze, your American friends, you may well walk away from this episode knowing more about their political system than they do we certainly hope so it's a ding on us. It's not a it's not a thing on you. So well, everyone can this is the funny thing that everyone can agree that the system needs an overhaul of some sort. But the problem is the politicians and activists just cannot seem to agree on exactly what those changes should be. There's an author named Lorraine see minutes who wrote a paper called an analysis of voter fraud in the United States, and she had a really fascinating, quote that that summed this up since the two thousand election and historic effort has been underway in the United States to strengthen voting systems across all fifty states into aggress obstacles to broader, electoral participation. Oh, sorry. At both the federal and state levels, however efforts to advance a reform agenda have been frequently complicated by heated debates over the integrity of voting systems, and by allegations of widespread election fraud, and it's cohort voter fraud. You gotta love the way they depict those as if they're a team of evil super villains. Yeah. Election fraud, and it side kick votive, it's cohort. What a weird term to use for that cohort. A we have we have an example of how this came up in recent elections because there have been people who are very high up in politics raising concerns about voter fraud. Specifically, what did he say man, we can go ahead and play this clip? Yeah. A lot of times it doesn't matter because in many places like California the same person votes. Many times you probably heard about that. They always like to say, oh, that's a conspiracy theory not a conspiracy theory fucks millions and millions of people and it's very hard because. State guards their records. They don't want to see it. So that is the that is a quote from the current president of the United States, Donald Trump who is was arguing the voter fraud does exist and that people from both political parties are ignoring it. So there's something interesting going on there. What he's what he's saying is that there is voter fraud. Look at all these places where voter fraud is happening. If you talk about voter fraud, they're they're going to say bad things about you. They assuming the media or sure I'm sure it'll opponents political opponents. So that is one of the reasons why we're doing this episode right because that kind of rhetoric has been around on on both sides somewhat but mostly coming from one direction the allegations of this kind of widespread vote. Fraud. So just putting it out there. That's one of the main reasons why even covering this right now who knows maybe people will say bad things about us because we're bringing up voter fraud. Well, yeah. And the whole point is to see if there's any salt to the stuff, right? That's why we're so let's pause there on that clip. And have a word from our sponsor when we come back. We'll we'll examine what voter fraud actually is. It may not be exactly what you assume. Hi, I'm Daniel, and I'm more. And we're here to tell you all about our brand new podcast Daniel and hor, hey, explain the universe in this podcast. We're gonna talk about a lot of things mostly about physics and the universe all those big mysteries. Scientists a lot of things left to figure out even pretty basic stuff. Like, what is space? What is time? What is stuff made out of which movie gets time travel? Right. That's an important question. Scientists. Are we alone in the universe? What is a black hole? Anyway with inside a black hole. That's what the guys is about. It's mostly me and Jorges riffing on stuff. We find fun and fascinating and hilarious to look for Daniel and more. Hey, explained the universe. We'll try to cover just about everything in the universe. Everything. Everything. Dullish the whole shebang from cats planets two black holes and tiny part of this. And we're back. So here is the fifty seven dollar question. I'm just deciding random arbitrary value to this question matters that okay? Yeah. Let's do it. All right. Here's the fifty seven dollars and thirteen cents thirty four cents question. I like that number takes they expand its for you what is voter fraud. Will I it's a pretty broad term. And it's often confused with these other related, but distinct concepts there are three ideas of play here. And it's important it's crucial to differentiate them, I straight up voter fraud. There's a nonprofit that works on voter registration called project vote and they define voter fraud as the quote intentional corruption of the electoral process by the voter. It's win a voter knowingly blows off that American idea of one person one vote and attempts to influence an election in. It's the idea that people will vote using a fake. Identity. You know? So you vote once his met Frederick once is Dennis Loboi. I've. Now, I didn't. He's always been my favorite voting identity. Then I've only once is been once is max powers astronaut with a secret. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And then we we rent repeat ad nauseam until we have done this to such an extent that we skew the outcome of the election. That would take all automobiles. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of time. Right. And this doesn't count honest mistakes or pranks like when the lady in Florida got prints with MRs Albert got pranked, somebody registered her poodle thing when she registered her poodle. Friends chokingly registered her pufus way the election. Yeah. What a weird paperwork, heavy prank. Yeah. Come on. What happened it just teepee on someone's yard? Gotcha. Your dogs registered. That's so weird. But but also cocoa if you're curious is a registered Republican. Oh nice. These kinds of shenanigans only count is fraud when someone purposely does it as in an attempt to sway an election, not just because somebody was getting drunk or. Hi and thought it would be hilarious if their hamster, you know, had the right to vote. Yeah. But then so so that's the stuff voter fraud. And that definition is when someone on the voter side tries to influence an election, and that's different from straight up election fraud. Yeah. This one this like the idea the concept of election fraud is a lot more broad than just voter fraud. The the DOJ the department of Justice actually looks at a full on twelve ways that in election can be corrupted in one way or another, and it is actually extremely rare that this fraud is ever committed by the. No, the person the the singular human being that goes into cast a ballot. And if you look at those twelve ways, you can look this up search for federal prosecution of election offenses seventh edition if you want to just edgier seat adrenaline, rush heart pounding rude, dude. It's it's a huge document. I'll even know how many chapters I didn't get past the first four. Well, we we did read through I read through we wanted to save you some time. So the twelve things that they count as election fraud conspiracy against rights deprivation of rights, false information in payments for registering and voting and then things like voting more the once voter intimidation voter suppression, fraudulent registration voting by non-citizens, which is a big thing travel act mail fraud troops at polls. Like having military member station in polls campaign dirty tricks and retention of federal election records. So that that gets pretty drive very quickly. But it's important stuff. And. As you said. Yeah. As you said, it's extremely rare at least in the DOJ's findings that the voters who lineup average, John and Jane Doe, America. Their last names America. Okay. I've got up the improvisation before we continue a, but it's it's extremely rare that these people would be the source of nefarious activities at pulse. Yeah. I mean for this kind of stuff the the large scale election fraud, you're going to look at groups of people. You're look at either oppose the opposing force like if you are one of the the person's running in the election. It's going to be the opposing camp perhaps trying to do this. Maybe some advocacy group. That's a third party to the election has a hand in doing something like this. Even the election officials themselves trying to rig an election in some way, for some reason or another that's I mean, that's really what you're looking at with this kind of thing even maybe the candidate himself trying to pull some strings somewhere, quite possibly. Yeah. And for some reason, I could see that happening more easily local elections out. Sure. Just with the just the numbers involved member. When. S you what a comptroller actually does. Yeah. I wonder if comptroller is ever fixed the election. I mean, they're good with numbers. So I'm assuming probably they could I would watch that show. I would watch his show about small town dirty comptroller, politics, they could launder those votes other. So that's stuff is is more common. That's a pretty broad definition used at the federal level. There's also the practice of voter suppression. And this is going to be very familiar to a lot of a lot of us listening outside of the US because voter suppression is distressingly alarmingly common in a lot of countries in the modern day voter suppression describes the many ways in which one political party or group will attempt to prevent certain voters for making it to the polls or force people to vote for certain candidates or certain policy on election day in twenty ten about one hundred and twelve thousand voters in Maryland located mostly in black voting districts. Got these weird robo calls. That said the incumbent is a person who Martin O'Malley had one. And that there was no need to vote. The recorded voice said our goals have been met. We're okay, relax. Everything's fine. The only thing left is to watch it on TV tonight. The problem is those calls were authorized by the campaign manager of the opponent candidate for governor and Martin O'Malley had not one. No elections were still open. It was just meant to persuade people. Not to vote. Yeah. What a dirty stinking trick. That is man. Right. Right. And it's the courts agreed. By the way, they said, it was not just campaign speech. And it's not just free speech was purposely misleading fraudulent. But then there's the other the other more physical case of people being physically intimidated at polls or near polls. That's because there are some weird little. Rule is that you can kind of skirt around having to do with number of feet away from an election center and all this stuff. Right. But if you get caught doing that and trying to suppress vote that way by intimidation, you can get in sub-zero trouble in clearly elections again across across the world have some just cartoonish tactics going up. I mean, we've we've all seen reports where a certain politician wins like one hundred percent of the vote and gets one hundred ten percent of the vote in some districts and things like that. I'm pulling those specific numbers out of the out of thin air. But there have been situations where a certain district in some country or another gets more than one hundred percent of a vote for a candidate. That's hiring. You know, everybody's involved doing a, right. You got more votes than you should have. That's right. Everybody's given. Everybody is learning from cocoa Fernandez through. So the problem with this stuff is we can all agree that these are terrible. Things and they can skew a nation. They're dangerous things. But there's another thing we have to we have to admit, which is some efforts to prevent voter fraud have led to voter suppression. So some efforts to prevent unscrupulous people from voting multiple times have led to totally innocent people being denied the right to vote, and I it gets tricky, but the type of voter fraud. We almost always hear mentioned in US media is not that nuance, nor does it make any big differentiations the type of voter fraud. You'll see reported in the news in the past. Few years is almost always going to be the specific fear that certain voters are intentionally voting multiple times either under assumed identities or just by traveling to different locations in voting. So somebody is for instance, registered somehow in three states, and they just three counties. Even or just three counties, even and then just go and vote every Kennedy. So instead of one person they they ended up having the power three people and just expand that a huge degree. And you'll see the problem people are posing. If this exists, it's a massive effort. I mean, you would need so many people voting so many times to make a discernible difference in the polls. Yeah. The the numbers are would be astounding here just to make a large enough difference unless you're looking at a very small voting block. But then again, if you're voting if you're voting multiple times, you're not going to be voting in the exact same pool, that's being collected. So your one vote is only one little drop in the bucket. You would have to have. Hundreds probably thousands. No, probably hundreds of thousands of people doing this to really sway of a large enough vote. Yeah. Like, maybe on a federal level on on a federal level you'd have to have millions. Probably you know, it also depends on the district's this specific districts because some of those districts get very very close like in matter of a margin of error of few hundred votes. Yes. But I I guess I'm when I'm saying is if you're taking part in this in your organizing, it the extent that you would need to do to actually Swain election reliably, you would need to have at least thousands. Even if even if the margin is going to be a couple hundred you have to have them in place. Right. You also need to be able to predict where exactly where you needed to slot those fake voters in right? So really over talking about is something you would do from console, and you'd be a hacker movie hackers and you'd have virtual reality going through servers. That's. Really the only way to do sponsored by debold. When you hear stories of voter fraud, and the media is often going to be a lurid tale of dead people voting or maybe maybe non US citizens being intimidated or force the travel around in a van and vote under false identities. And usually when you hear that there's going to be an immediate solution proposed after that coupled with this description of something dangerous there's going to almost always be a description of what needs to happen to fix it. And that'll be stuff like voter ID voter ID voter ID, you say you mean, taking your identification to go and register to vote or and or to vote right, which people already do that sounds so simple. Just take your ID. Right. Everybody has an ID or specialized ide- just for voting. Right. But it's not so simple. It's not so simple. And we'll we'll get into that. In a moment. We can all agree. However that if. Voter fraud exists. It needs to be stamped out is rigging the game even more than it's already rigged. Yeah. Which I feel like is not a controversial statement is it no couldn't pay as much money as you want to any politician. That's true. That's true. And you can do it without being directly socio with the money. Either. So it's fine. It's fine five everything's fine. However, critics of the the claims about voter fraud say that there's something very different at work here. They say that voter fraud itself is a conspiracy. But not the way it's been described to you in the media. Here's where it gets crazy in this situation. We truly do have a house divided to people who believe that voter fraud is rampant there is a concerted conspiracy at the heart of the election process, and it is one perpetrated by the political left. And conversely to people who believe that voter fraud is non-existent it's not even thing it's massively over hyped. If it is a thing at all there's a concerted conspiracy at the heart of the election process. However, this one is perpetrated by the political, right? So oddly enough. A ton of people believe that there is a genuine conspiracy of foot people have on all sides of the political aisles people have conspiracy theories about this. The only thing is that no one can universally agree on exactly what the conspiracy is. And that's perhaps because it is. So deeply divided to the left and right about what is believed to be the conspiracy. I know welcome to the age of. No, you politics, just don't engage everybody. Okay. But let's the for for purposes of learning. Let's let's figure it out. All right. So in the modern day accusations of voter fraud are closely tied to the recent election and the current president President Trump has also echoed these claims, according to the Washington Post in twenty eighteen during a visit to West Virginia. President Trump said a lot of times it doesn't matter because in many places like California the same person votes. Many times you probably heard about that. They always. Like to say, oh, that's a conspiracy theory not a conspiracy theory folks, millions and millions of people and it's very hard because the state guards the records. They don't want to see it. Okay. So this was is interesting because this is after the election is already been decided and he's arguing about popular vote. Right. Right. Well, there were. Yep. When there were people additionally, I guess opponents of the Trump campaign or administration who said back in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen really that he was bringing up. Well, his speechwriters were bringing up the idea of voter fraud as sort of a way to backpedal if he. Yeah, if you didn't lose the election. That's when Barack Obama put for that statement that was really widely research-related around the time where he was speaking to that same effect like if you you're bringing up. Voter fraud as a way to safeguard against perhaps if you lose, but the important part with Barack Obama with his statement was that he said, it would be almost impossible to influence our elections in this country just due to the size of these elections and the complexity of them it would be almost impossible to interfere with our elections. That's that's the quote, he gave. And then the interesting thing that has after that is then the Democratic Party alleges that that very thing occurred, and it was a state actor. It wasn't a an inside job of American voters things. It was Russia itself, right, right, which is not voter fraud that's election for election fraud. Yeah. But still just the whole the whole mess that became all of these things. And so we see the we see the issue painted. Why'd you know what I mean? And we see a lot of claims. So what if the claims of widespread voter fraud conspiracy to commit voter fraud or true, it brings several questions to mind immediately. I how many people are actually voting multiple times, especially considering so many Americans can't be arced to vote one time. You know what? I mean. How do you get arse that person to vote you get arse? A are SE. Yeah. We is. That is that's like a an ourselves there and vote. There we go. That's like an approachable curse. Word is even a curse word in Europe anymore. I don't know arced. Well, they can't be bothered rather way. Yes. Regardless of where they stand with their arse. Well, we can't give you those exact numbers because we do not have those numbers. Those numbers are not easily attainable. Even if we could attain them. We can't tell you. How one person did it is that worth it? Yeah. Late on us. Okay. This is a woman named Terry. Lynn wrote. She was let's see fifty six in twenty seventeen she attempted to vote for Donald Trump twice in two thousand sixteen election, and she did. So because she thought she was listening to the words of Donald Trump at the time on the build up to the election and believed that the Democrats were going to be using voter fraud to win the election. That's that's what she believed at least according to to her statements. So Terry Lynn wrote cast one vote her regular vote. It was an absentee vote. I believe then she was arrested when she was trying to cast a second ballot. She was going to this at least in the article in the independent it was called a satellite voting location. And she said, quote, I don't know what came over me at the time. She just thought she has to do this in order to help the person. She wants to be elected get elected. Okay. So from her standpoint than it was not a planned, colder, necessarily, she wasn't working with a network of people. Yes, she believes in the oracle. You'd send me she said that she was concerned her first ballot where she voted for Trump would be changed to a vote for Clinton. That was a lot of there are a lot of rumors about that. Especially if you use the electron voting at the time if you put in your vote you hit cast ballot, and it would flip. That's what the the there are people alleging that. So according to her story, she was literally just walking by the early voting location and said, you know, what I I've gotta make sure I'm at least heard once. Yeah. So she got what two years probation? Correct. And she got a fine as well. Yes. Seven hundred and fifty dollars. So she actually voted twice. Okay. So she actually did it we attempted we go that this happened. And then you mentioned earlier the story of crystal Mason. Yeah. Crystal mason. So if you're if accounting then how many felons are out there voting illegally. That's the one case that we can point to right now is best case. It's someone who perhaps didn't know that. She couldn't vote as a felon attempted to vote and she got caught. Okay. So again, we have no extra votes yet. No, okay. Knows sense. So in both of these instances trying to vote twice got caught at the at the polling place attempting to vote illegally as a as a felon got caught. Okay. So what about the other big concern? I think we've all heard it a a spouse. Most often on the right? The concern of noncitizens voting that could be anywhere from an undocumented immigrants someone who doesn't have legal residency status or someone who is a legal resident, but it does not have citizenship. Right. Yes. We can we can look to a story from twenty eighteen about a woman named Laura Garza who's thirty eight years old. She pleaded guilty to charges of voter impersonation and in in eligible voting. Sorry. I'm having a hard time saying ineligible right now. No, I I said a legible, and I was thinking man I've been on the knife's edge. Fellowship illegibly voting go right, ugly letters to us. Yes. Well, it was Garza was sentenced to ten years in jail in order to pay a ten thousand dollar fine. So what she actually did was stole the identity of an actual person voter. And then she voted I believe three at least three elections using this other person's identity, not three times a one election. But over the course of several election thousand four two thousand twelve in two thousand sixteen oh, she dated for a while. Yeah. And so this kind of thing there may be more of this out there where just someone else's sure identity is being used perhaps it is a dead person's identity in this case. It was a person who is very much alive who attempted to get a passport, and they noticed that their name their identity was already in a passport existing out there somewhere and had a voting record. I see I'm glad you mentioned that Matt because it brings us to the methods through which voter fraud is claimed to manifest if one idea is that you're fraud is widespread because there are millions of people still on the rolls and the assumption is that these dead people's identities will be used by someone else. Yeah. It is true that the Pugh center on the states found that one point eight million dead people were still on the voter rolls in twenty twelve has a lot of people. That's enough. You know what I mean? Yeah. If those people rise from the. Grave and have strong political opinion, which is unusual for zombies. That's be that som- vote. I would watch it. I would watch zombie vote. If it's I don't care if it's a sitcom. I don't care if it's you know, like what happens if the zombies and the Walking Dead get the vote. Oh, nothing because they don't show up on the show. Well, we know. Flo. Critique over here shots fired. Paul canyon shots fired. Sound q? Thank you. I still haven't seen past episode one of the second season. Hey, you know, I'm I'm sure it's I'm sure it's a good show. It's just it doesn't have enough. Walking Dead for me. You know what I mean? Yeah. Nemo more zombies. What about what's the other one beware? The Walking Dead or fear. The Walking Dead watch out the Walking Dead. Danger Huachen debt? I okay. If you were in it. I would watch it. Okay. If you're at as a living person, I would watch it. Yes. So that's that's a pretty enormous number, right? There's no way around it. No matter what you think going into the situation. One point eight million people who are dead, but still on still registered voters. It's a big deal. And then there's this other idea that just the pure math shows voter fraud exists. This comes from the former vice chair of the fraud commission. Kansas secretary of state Chris co Bach crisco Bach allege that he found a certain sample of fraudulent votes in his state that and in that if you extrapolated that percentage that he found to the full population of the US than hundreds of thousands of specifically non-citizens had voted. So the problem with this is that his math included people who might. Have voted illegally, but not people who actually had so people who okay might is the key phrase here, and as of twenty eighteen he had out of the out of all the cases that he had claimed to find only nine resulted in any kind of conviction or plea deal. And this is over the course of multiple state elections. And the sad part is most of those nine convictions or plea deals came from older people who were confused by the law in you know, what I mean? Yeah. So maybe maybe they had not voted correctly. But they weren't like we leaned in some strange skiing to get the comptroller, elected, no to a comparable or needs to chill cheese people. Go power mad. They've got the not not a lot of people can wield the cop trolls, you know, what I mean? But you're you're literally crunching numbers and signing checks and stuff, but you're not making that money. You're getting a paycheck on top of everything come on Conrad what he charge heavy is the head that wears the crown. You know what I mean? Comptrollers the board gonna say comptroller. It's in my head, though, dude, I have this this picture of like a small town that has ruled by the the iron grip of a comfortable. I love to watch this the CPA. Yeah. And that's the that's the real. Ingen of the dramatic arc. It's okay. All right, obviously. I think I'm just rewriting breaking bad in my head. Ooh. Okay. Well, that's not a bad thing to to take on fear. The breaking bash breaking. Oh my gosh. You download it. Wow. Okay. You're a producer. Okay. Here the producer this one. So. The vote and let us know of fear. The breaking bad is no case spinoff, we promised to count your votes fairly. So the problem is that the the math didn't quite work out there and a lot of other institutions that we can we can list on this the do show notes or something if you if you'd like to have more information about this a lot of other institutions found fault with these claims. Yeah, there's the other idea that numerous non-citizens are voting through the use of fake identities. So they're taking some of those one point eight million dead people voting as them or they're just stealing somebody else's information in voting as them. So let's let's look at the other side. Let's table that just for a second. What if it turns out that the reports of voter fraud are themselves fraudulent for every case that we have named above it seems there's very little translation to actual voter fraud. Now, we we did do some digging. And we wanted we want very much to find real legitimate cases, where these types of voter fraud have been proven, and you know, Matt to your credit you found several and organize them by type there, which we just explored. But the thing is we didn't find near as much as has been claimed knew what I mean, we didn't find hundreds of thousands of people. We didn't find millions of people. And this brings us to the question is it is it just being. Ruthlessly covered up is it being ignored is all records of this being purged. Well, it could be or could it be been this whole voter fraud thing is a fraud itself. Right. The voter fraud fraud. We'll find out after a word from our sponsor. Which is worse a nuclear war. That kills off ninety nine percent of the humans alive on earth or a virus that comes along and kills the remaining one percent as horrible as the deaths of ninety nine percent of humanity would be losing the remaining one percent would be much much worse. That's because as philosopher Derek Parfitt once pointed out, there would be no more humans left to carry on. And the chance that we could ever come back again is lost forever. That's the idea behind existential risks threats that are so big. They can bring about the total impermanent end of the human race. No more humans forever. And if we're the only intelligent life in the cosmos, intelligent life dies out with us too. So what's a little unnerving that we're heading towards some existential risks lying just ahead in our near future face the future. Joy may stuff ish does Josh Clark for the end of the world the ten part. Podcast series coming November seven to the iheartradio app. Apple podcasts. Google play music, Stitcher Spotify or wherever you find podcasts. And join the conversation on social and hashtag E OT W. Josh clark. Yes. That's the question is there voter fraud fraud at the risk of sounding glib because most of those registration miscount you'll hear about which are huge an inherently dangerous in arguably dangerous. They seem to come from. This can be hard for a lot of sake. They seem to come from people being really lazy instead of being determined to rig the game of democracy and governance, and it can also be just to throw this one in there because of a lack of funding to update some of the technology used and a lack of personnel within a department in like, let's say, however, large the district is has to count some votes or do some kind of like auditing it can have to do that too. Yeah. I think that's a really fair point man because. People aren't supposed to get rich off of run running the vote note. I mean, no, but also with the registration thing. It's registration for voting is supposed to happen. These very significant points in your life. You know, what I mean, like your name changes your address changes you become eighteen it's cetera et cetera. Mary you get maimed changed. Yeah. That's the name change thing to emancipated. No. This is great you anymore. No, just outta. Oh. Those are good. We'll the I guess the point we're making is that these are life changes. And when you're moving to a different interests when you're getting married so on a lot of people don't update their voter registration. It is surprisingly or unsurprisingly low on their list of priorities when our loved ones die. We're usually not calling the voter registration office. I to get a dead person's name off the poll. In fact, I would hazard in this is entirely. My assumption is entirely speculation. I could be very very wrong on this. I would hazard many people if not most don't even know. That's a thing you're supposed to do. I could not tell you my grandmother passed not that long ago. I could not tell you right now whether or not she's still registered to vote either in Georgia where she's been residing or where where she's the. Live in Tampa. I could not tell you that. Right. I mean, it's it's not a thing that you would normally think in such a grief stricken terrible time in people's lives. But now, I'm genuinely going to go check. If I can't believe I'm allowed to check as a grandson. All right. I gotta do some more digging on this and while you're digging. Let's let's continue down this rabbit hole. A little bit further because we've mentioned that critics of what will call the voter fraud conspiracy argue that there's a little evidence to back up the more extreme claims. But here's the thing. Many go further and say that those allegations about voter fraud are conspiratorial in a different way, they are meant to push a nother hidden agenda could voter fraud. Fears be a means of disenfranchising certain parts of the voting population. It's an interesting and fascinating question because you see both politically. Pundits and academics. Although the political people who argue this or mainly on the left side of the island. They say that voter fraud is simply a quote, moral panic and the politicians are using concerns about this fraud as a justification for establishing new rules that make it more difficult to vote and that function more like voter suppression than an attempt to maintain the integrity of elections, the primary methods they object to our voter ID acts and laws requiring proof of address or citizenship. So that's that's the other thing. If that is true we have to ask ourselves. Why would some states impose rules to fight a mythical scourge? So according to Lorraine Monette, remember, we mentioned her earlier, she she did the whole analysis of voter fraud in the United States. She says, quote it boils down to a political equation. The people who are less. Likely to be registered young people people of color naturalized, citizens and low income people are more likely to be Democrats. So in this case, she saying that these rules are these laws these voter ID laws are targeting specifically people on one side of the political aisle and preventing them or in an attempt to make it harder for them to register. And then get to the polls. Okay. So shoot clearly has pinned this on a specific party, right? Yes. She's aiming at Republicans, and she argues that these voters are less likely to have a photo ID and more likely to have a tough time getting one. And then she says that as a result Republicans in her opinion are inclined to support voting restrictions like ID laws and Democrats are more likely to support lowering those barriers via stuff like automatic registration, pre registration. That's when you're sixteen or seventeen years old. You can go ahead and register hopefully, I'm sure as they would imagine as democrat or older bills that allow voters to register when they get a driver's license renewed stuff like that. That's that's actually kind of cool. I like that if you can drive you might as well be registered to vote on yet. That sure yeah. Right. I I think the logic. There is sound. So essentially what she's saying is both parties are attempting to change the rules in ways that are estimated to best help their particular party. And this leads us to the conclusion, how do we effectively safeguard against possible fraudulent voting? Matt you're throwing your arms up just set the whole thing of fire. That's that's you know, I'm just doing. Well, the New York Times, they they wrote an article that comes at least in part from the national academies of science engineering and medicine, which I mean, come on with that with that behind something, you gotta know there's there's some salt to it. And then we're just going to read this quote here. It says amid a chorus of warnings at the American election system is ground zero for foreign attackers, a panel of leading scholars and election experts experts issued a sweeping set of recommendations on how to make elections more secure. So this is directly from from these people the national academies of science and engineering medicine. Here we go number one. They said always have a paper trail for every vote cast, basically a receipt for every vote. Even this is if it's done like in Georgia where I vote where you get those little like a I don't know floppy disk, you put the floppy disk in yet your vote take discount and give it to somebody else. And it gets counted. Somehow, they're saying there should always be a receipt, essentially that you the voter gets to have. And that also the the county gets to have the district wherever you're voting. Okay. Makes a lot of sense. That's just for backup verification. It's also for easy auditing a lot of times in currently there. Five states, George. South Carolina, Louisiana, Delaware and New Jersey in portions of several others that do not have any kind of paper trail when you go and vote. Okay. Like in in our case when I go and vote every year whenever elections come up and YouTube probably been just depending on what county you're in. You put that thing in little that little chipped thing. It counts vote than it goes somewhere else. And you don't ever see it. Yeah. And then I'd just like circle around put on my flight suit and come back in and voters and acts powers after not with a secret, the mustache and everything. Yes. I thought that was you know, man. Okay. So that's number one. The next thing is don't ever ever connect any voting systems ever at all ever with the internet. Just don't do it because it's so susceptible to being you know, any kind of manipulation it can happen almost immediately upon hitting the enter the internet air gap that stuff and leave it that way. Okay. And this is only a problem, really. Because in some instances US citizens who are abroad can gain access to online voting systems as well. As service members who were abroad overseas. That's really the only problems where that happens. Another thing. I mean, all this stuff seems so it seems like stuff that Jimmy Carter and his organization at some point would be out there saying we need to do this. We're we are in Zimbabwe or something we're gonna have open elections for the first time we're going to monitor these elections. Here's a huge list of things we need you to do it feels like it's the exact same list. I I see what you're saying. So so what what else what else transparent audits of all elections at the state level, basically audit all data? You you scrub all the private information. So the individual voters information to get rid of all that. But you have all of the votes like the the meta data essentially make that public. So anyone who wants to check? It can check it pretty. I mean, I is I can see how that would be easy to perceive as rigged. Okay, perhaps. But I mean, if if again, you've got receipts on everything so on the district level you've got an audit. That's available online somewhere on the state level you've gone audit. That's available somewhere of each district. And I don't know I feel like I feel like those. Okay. So those things only work if they're all in implemented. You know what? Yes. Yeah. And everything at this current state. It's all just everybody's on their own. Everybody's got their every state has their own system. And then largely the district's within the states have their own systems, and then there would be the idea of shared database, right? Oh, yeah. What is that? When mean, this is really good. So when there are databases of voters, right? So everybody in Georgia that's one database, and then everybody in Florida that's another database, and then what you do is you take those two databases and see where there are duplicates. So if someone that moved from Georgia to Florida or Florida, Georgia or something you can eliminate whichever. One or you can at least find where the error is. And then begin to fix it. But then for the sake of argument, then there there's there's potential for problems with that. Because multiple people have the same name. So there would be like, you know, you'd have to actually verify. So would both like Donnie LA boy in Florida boy, Georgia lose their vote. Well, here's here's a here's where the final thing we're going to skip number six because it's just about male voting and making your number seven the most important thing here is inject federal and state funds into the voting process. So that you can have at least a rolling system of checking those things with an actual human being or set of hundreds of human beings checking these voter ballots or the registrations let me say so you can see what the duplicates are. And you could make a phone call to Joey or whoever call the poodle all the poodles that are registered make your Saint poodle. Really, you would spend some money to get it. Right. And then you'd continually spend money every so often to keep getting right? So why don't why don't people want to do that? Why don't officials want that to happen because it's expensive and it would be harder to manipulate been events. Just me talking tempted to me tempted to agree to make it even more cynical. Probably add it's generally very difficult to get political officials to do something that has positive benefit after they are out of office. Yeah. So, you know, if you're if you're an office for two year term, you're working on a two year mindset. Right. And that usually that to your mindset is oriented toward reelection for another few years in a different position. Maybe a higher position per se as a sugar in. Comptroller for life, bro. So that's this. Another question is almost nothing to do with this. But it might be interesting. Do you know if there are any other Matt Fredricks there are a ton of Matt Frederick? He's serious. Yeah. Yeah. There really are. There's some incredible people out there native, Matt Frederick some of them don't have an e between Frederick some of them. Do some of them are straight up Matthews. Some of them are only Matt's some of them. I don't think there's another Matthew, Tom. No there is another Matthew Thomas Frederick dang. Just wondering I want you lose your right to vote. Oh, no. But but for now, I trust those guys I get on the the all the Matt Frederick's, I've met who are only you. Great people. I look up to the momentum of for now though, it seems that most allegations of voter fraud ended up not being supported by research or data from multiple institutions. And this means that if such a thing is occurring, then it would be a massive cover up involving not just thousands, hundreds of thousands of people in the media the election system, think tanks, universities polling analysis the courts numerous branches of government staffed with officials of all political ideologies and more this is all not counting. Of course. Those actual mystery voters to put it to put it mildly. A toll milkshake it's a lot to take in. So we wanted to end unquestioned for you, folks. What do you think which of these two conspiracies, do you find more credible? Is there widespread voter fraud as described so often in the media or? Or is voter fraud itself. A conspiracy meant to drive suppressive voting policies. We we'd like to hear your opinion. We'd also like to hear and this is just a. This is the kind of talk that you're not allowed to have in a bar. So we'd like to have it with you here in the podcast, you know, lily like, you're never supposed to talk what religion or politics at a bar. And I think there was one other one your Uber driver. Right. Sure. All those those three things, but this will this is our collective opportunity all of us to ask ourselves questions about the vote if you were in charge of revamping the voting system, what is it change? You would make for a long time. I was a big proponent of making it mandatory for every citizen to vote. That might be a little bit of Thawra -tarian of me. I was going through a despot phase at that time in my life. But this might surprise non US residents who are listening to the show a true story in the US election day is not a holiday you have your left on your own to figure that out. So maybe that would be a change to make. I dunno Tuesday, this Tuesdays that a convenient day a lot of work to be done on Tuesdays to generally. Yeah. Yeah. Mondays still have a little bit of like the optimism that you can organize everything in a week whose day. That's when the rubber hits the road, my friend. He that's the hook. This is this isn't happening. Okay. We gotta we have to we have to have lowered expectations. So let us know what you think you, can you know, you can find us on the internet. We're I feel like we say it all the time because they say at the end of every show, that's fine. Confined just there. Tell us about it. We'd love to hear from you. But more importantly, we'd love to have you. Tell us about it. Yes. Live in person because we are going on tour. That's right. Go to stuff. They don't want you to know dot com. That's our website, click on the tab up in the top right corner. It says live shows you can see where we're going to be. It's going to be an October of this year. If you're listening to this in October that you'd better hurry over there and get some tickets because we might be in your area, very very soon. So buy tickets while you can come see us. It'll be a lot of fun. Because really, I don't know. I think we're okay to hang out with and we want to hang out with you. Because we hear you're awesome. And no spoilers for the show. But it is not to be missed. And it's it's not going to be the kind of thing you hear on the podcast. Now, if you like this show, you will love the live shows. Do check it out. Feel free to write to us. If you have any questions feel free to call us that people can call us now. Yeah. You can call us one eight three three S T D W Y. Hey, and just leave a voice message might get on the air. All right. But there's let's say all of that. All of blue sounds interesting. But you have something important that you want your fellow listeners to know most important part of this show and don't don't like the social media stuff, which would totally get and you're not that much for phone calls, which totally get the good news is you can write to us directly. We are conspiracy. At how stuff works dot com. Emission of this podcast is simple to uncover the truth to clear, my aunt's name to put the real killer behind bars or die trying. I'm taking Torres and this is lethal. Lethal lit a Tig Torres mystery a six part scripted podcast series coming to your favorite podcast app. Mondays starting October twenty nine subscribe now to never miss an episode.

fraud US Fraud Matt Florida President Trump Cocoa fernandez comptroller producer apple Wendy Albert John Oliver Teresa Lepore crystal Mason
Podcast: Protect Your Profits With These Voice Fraud Mitigation Best Practices

Telecom Reseller

20:10 min | 1 year ago

Podcast: Protect Your Profits With These Voice Fraud Mitigation Best Practices

"This is green and I'm the publisher Telecom reseller and this is a special podcast. I'd Voice Fraud Mitigation Best Practices. I'd like to welcome you to telecom. Resorted podcast series today. I'm with Chris. Lee The CEO of cloud. Age Solution. Chris thank you for joining us today. Thanks Great Year so Chris. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and cloudy solutions? Sure I've been in the industry For a little bit more than thirty years working on behalf of both four carriers as well as for service provider firms that health carriers that. I've either co founded or founded All started back in nineteen eighty eight or joining. Ci Fresh out of College There I worked in the network engineering group Looking at things like switch Network interconnections with Alex. I managed Telco cost then for the end of my tenure there. I just Federal Supporting Federal Regulatory Obviously After see I did I did a few startup. Wireless START UP Which was basically to obtain spectrum. See Baku options ninety nine to ninety six then worked for a company called Elo international global carrier and then starting in ninety nine. I kind of went on more of an entrepreneurial bent than I. Basically you know co founded or founded a number of startups One of which ninety nine joined up with a bunch of friends and colleagues but I worked with work for. Mci broad margin We offered network cost management services visit much competitive parish priest right after the news ninety six Max And then we were quite successful in a period of four years the company to around twenty eight ish million dollar revenue. Solis private equity in two thousand. Three ear off by then found another company source lose five which is known. Today as cloudy solutions that chronic solutions we provide data analytics and saw as fast square platforms serving. The needs of both carriers been large enterprises. Chris you know overtime it seems like there's a downside to technology we we make great gains in productivity and delivery of information on but the dark seems to be. The bad guys never rest. There's always a bad actor doing something trying to exploit the newest game Continually come up with ways to explain communication platforms and Dr Fraudulent Traffic. How big is that problem today? Yeah I guess that's the problem having services connected to a network there you've ever six totally secure right Well we've looked at you know. There's there's Association called the Communications Fraud Control Association or CS DA Every year they conducted a survey of how pervasive and how large this problem is then. Just the numbers out of their survey from Twenty Nineteen The problem is greater than twenty eight billion dollars losses which equates to almost two percent of gross revenue which is a pretty big number We've seen out there That these events are are very costly for carriers and service providers ranging from ten thousand dollars over quarter million Her events over very short theories on These these fence are are really really. Destroy Martin you know overall voice margins for months even years on his five to carrier And what we've also seen about these events really you know the signature. These fraud events Kind of look. Here's what we see what they look like And I think it's the access to the system is almost always gains results. Have some type of customer security Heroin snus Calls are always hypothesis. Nations is unknown list And I'll go through that later And then Calls tend to be long duration. You know they stay on as long as they can. Drive up the cost You know typically multiple calls will be launched three of the call forwarding mechanisms when you look at the C. Dr Data Which we have a lot of analytics tools around you see the same to and from numbers of upper eighty separate calls at one at one time. Launch Typically Sodas. Friday's don't have fraud detection in place In some of these actually didn't happen in their lab environments where even if they had fraud detection in place. They didn't enable that FRAUD DETECTION FOR THEIR LAB ENVIRONMENT. So packers going into their lab and launch falls from there Most routinely happened at Night Rover weekends when NAS staff is low so detection and shutting down. The event is really hindered by lack of staff available. So do they get that that is this is not just a danger in itself it? Also encumbers margin. Yeah absolutely It's it's been basically from almost every fraud event You'RE NOT GONNA recover that from the customer on. The numbers are too high. You know we we deal in the states of small medium carrier space and you know typically the customer is a small business and the and when you you know even if they're negligent by leading The bad guys into the system through an endpoint. They didn't properly secure. You'RE NOT GONNA go present a bill. Fifty thousand dollars the small business and having to pay it so revenue this revenue. You're never going to recover vastly not GONNA COLLECT. And it's a bill that you're GONNA have to pay your supplier. So why do you think fraud continues to be such an issue? What is it just keep going on? But I think there's a number of factors there One is the customers really not held accountable for their actions. So these are recur Even if they were Alabama again the facts are small visit. They don't have the wherewithal to pay for it right. So that's one issue there's no recourse there You know there's a large number of these fraud. Events happening and law enforcement is facing the stance. Most of these are really happening is actors that are located overseas to law enforcement. Here doesn't really address these issues at all. So there's really no returns to the bad guy Even goes parts of Spain. Some carriers actually naval this. Because when you look at like what's happening here was a fraud You're the bad guys. Are accessing systems in launching calls to certain destinations a certain numbers and they're in no doubt or being compensated by the terrorists bringing the call there and so having missed out there was cares. Continue to compensate what they have to know is fraudulent traffic. You know that that is just getting the bad guys the opportunity to monetize what they're doing I also think limited time really spent By the carriers of educating their customers. I'm good security hygiene. That's key I think you know. I guess it should go without saying that if you leave the fault user. Id Default Password and you're in points that that's not a bad thing but yeah you have to remind me of customers Theresa Wrong Password For any sportscenter open like that I think the other side in the markets we deal with the other small cares A lot of them View acquisition of effective fraud platform as more of a nice to have versus a necessity of course until they're hit with a fraud event and then they say wow that fifty thousand dollars to build this by the in the fraud platform was cheat. Now have staring at two hundred fifty dollars so you know And then again in this space I think a lot of the smaller hairs lack the appropriate feels that for looking at things like fraud. Prevention and mitigation And they also tend to be focused more on revenue generating activities versus cost. You know I wanNA stick with that for just two seconds that it's It is interesting that the prevention actually is a lot less expensive than the effects of an event but that I have a feeling people come to you after. These already been stunned. Yeah that's right. And so what we have been able to use in limited fashion Is We've actually a several of our customers that after they've been stung We've been able to negotiate down the mountain top pay terrier That visit transport And we do this by you know. Basically living at the rate that these providers charge for termination have Mars and built in in certain nations had a lot of margin built in so our knowledge of the market and the actual cost doing for traffic to certain destinations. We're able to leverage that to reduce the you know the amount of Pai in some we've reduced things down by or by fifty percents By just working with the carrier On kind of having you know basically the resolve the the ending liability but maybe not paying the profit part of that. Yeah so it's sounds like it's easier to prevent a problem than fix something after it's happened so you know what are the steps that service providers can take to help reduce fraud. I think it's a great question. And I think it's all about having a process and really service rather than continually re-examined controls season and the various protections that they have in place or can put in place to minimize this. So I really break this down on two lines prevention and mitigation On the prevention side. you really have to have a good fraud detection? Billion Place was effective It clearly you know these you have to stop these calls before they even start because you know in you know. Several years ago you know a lot of the fraud platforms. Were driving a fee ours. That were after the call is over. And that's great. You know you can detect those things and potentially shut down the system for future Loss but the problem with dealing with ours when after their copies that you've already created liability. You know you've already. College Auditing Played So there's lots of the modern fraud detection. Systems generally look at you know the invite as an example before the inviting sent out and the call setup to look at the to and from numbers and say wow this customer you know trying to launch an calls to Estonia. That doesn't look right and just shut back home block that call from happening so you have to have a good fraud detection capability in place and then the other side of it is educating the customer based on good network security hygiene you mentioned for the default passwords obviously should replace but really. I think you know what I mean is the the vast majority of these tax happened due to the customer allowing the guy the bad guys in through through bad heighten security On the size you know looking at things like reducing the tax service so when you know new seats are customers are implemented on phase cast platforms. Really shouldn't have It wide open to international destinations. You know the sales person can identify any countries that They cover is interested in calling should basically more enabled just those More like a white list Type of approach versus letting you know they have access to all international destinations The voice platform in general needs to be configured to limit exposure to things like you know call duration you know. There's you know the chance that a four hour call religion and call is very very low. Anything past two hours actually very low. That was just call. You know so you need to put him. In on the duration I need to look at things like redirects and call orbiting. A lot of these packs happened through through Wednesday access. The call forwarding off forty and assistant and watch Paul's do definitions through that You know most of the whole interest withholding of either vendors that they use cast from companies lease determination calls internationally. They offer basically and mix of proactive and reactive. Fraud Mitigation Capabilities and they definitely should be utilized by stop-loss settings where you know these these these spell parents will attack you can put in and say you know after five hundred dollars of usage certain country. You have the You know block calls and stuff like that. So there's a different mix of of Tangibility they offered that need to be taking into account and US And then you know basically once you have a an issue you really have to have a really good incident response plan you know and kind of you can limit now. We're talking about mitigation limiting the amount fraud event and having tools to quickly identify was happening and shut it down and shut down your nationally. Filthy for the time being for for two counts You know the next thing is really on different. Destinations have different incidents of fraud. And so there's some some cases you may want to fall block certifications but yeah there. There's everyone in the industry. No like the really bad ones like I'll just a couple of countries. Here South Me Barbados Estonia. I'm doors in South Dakota. Yeah Yeah South Dakota. There's there's a lot of interesting things happened there You know it tends to deal with What we used to call it. We used to create an inch traffic pumping a lot of calls go to South Dakota that are related to like three conferencing calls. But they're not really active calls on this really. You know we have to distinguish from my fraud. You know technically so It's not illegal for a customer to call. You know South Dakota Yeah. This is part of the North American numbering clan. Yeah but what happens is companies In we'll hackers get into system based ride calls to high costs nations. Been so there's there's carriers The all Great Lakes Operation South Dakota that takes a lot of pouncing calls and was tend to be high high actress rate high termination rate. And we see a lot of These he's brought events you know pushing calls there as well The last thing is Kinda stress. Is that You know if these events that happen you definitely have to conduct a post-mortem and really understand. Look at the signature looking at speed. Ers mentioned this thing that you're of the fraud event and if you did have fraud prevention quite understanding what went wrong. You know again what I mentioned earlier. A lot of times he's been put in these fraud platforms. We raise products and they work but they won't ask with the lab environment. Somehow someone gets into end points to the lab and it's wide open and you see that several occasions where all the customer and points to cover new customer system the live productions discovered but a lab environment is not and you get hit there Chris. How is cloudy working to address all this? We have several services peppers on The principally principal solution there is in more professional services. You identify fraud. You know procreate fraud capability and help our customers require that instead of that up We also look at Routing so as I mentioned earlier that some of the international terminating carriers have their own fraud detection and mitigation ability so One thing we do there and the routing five is you know not all of those terrorists are created equally in terms of their capabilities so We may take some of these high. You know high cost in you know frequent Fraud definitions and only route those destinations across a vendor or two. That has the capability. Some place more interesting abilities more than stop loss five so we won't even take chances. You know having a call we send to defamation. Lifestyle over international fair doesn't have like a fat loss capability So we do that over the last two years. We launched satisfy for him. It's called you class. It provides Lots of cost management support network support into our analytics Does a great job identifying these things but the problem with our our solution there. We're we're not. We don't mark fraud capability because once we detect systems. We use the data. It's kind of too late but we could an event in the middle of the event but really you really want to get a get it up front so you block that from really happening But we also offer other solutions like me and my voice cost optimization service that lowers your cost of your voice in general and so if you're with a Friday you cost less if you use your solution because the last And as mentioned earlier we awesome negotiated Large from Austin down. It was very scary. Said our customers US too. Chris I WANNA thank you for joining me today. here telecom resilient podcast Especially WanNa thank you for a lot of very interesting and useful insight on this really important matter. I hope we get a chance to do this again. In the we're we learn more about cloudy solutions and GPS class solution and stuck. It was great talking to as well The listeners to go to our website at www dot cloudy dot com or send an email to info at cloudy Solutions Dot Com. And you can learn more things rather cheesecakes cloud offering and additionally Lizards can look out for an upcoming two part article on this topic in the May sports in June verses US telecom reseller and I might add we also the putting it up on our website will be taking your article and making sure that our subscribers Spicy Bulletin Geffen and we're proud to say that will be posting this also on the cloud communications alliance website. Make it available for the members there so Chris I wanNA thank you for this very interesting information. We look forward to the next time too. So do I and take care

fraud Chris Communications Fraud Control A South Dakota US CEO publisher Alex Baku Alabama Spain Heroin Solis Martin Night Rover US telecom Elo international Great Lakes
An Ad Fraud Warning to Marketers from Reformed Provider, Jampp

Marketing Today with Alan Hart

46:14 min | 1 year ago

An Ad Fraud Warning to Marketers from Reformed Provider, Jampp

"For All of us. It's about predicting where the consumer is going and getting Catholic right. One of the things we want to do is create odds that don't suck then. Bracing chains creates great possibility. I'm Alan Heart. This is marketing today today on the show got Diego Miller. He's the CO founder and CEO of jump and today on the show is a follow up to our episode with Kevin Frisch at who was formerly the head of performance. Marketing Uber talking about the Ad Fraud Case and particularly I was interested in talking to Diego because he is on the AD. Buying side and in particular has a mini clarifications to make frankly about what we talked about with Uber and just clarify the differences between Ad Networks. Which is where the predominant fraud was within the Uber case versus programmatic which is where Diego has focused his business and we talk about the pivot. Frankly that his business went under and the stress they were under to move in that direction and to eliminate fraud that they were seeing in terms of services and solutions that they were providing marketers. We also talked quite a bit about marketers reactions and frankly the surprising actions that they're still asking for this fraudulent inventory and I hope if you're listening to this today that you take this as a warning shot and to think about how you can improve your own efforts in your businesses because I'm a little worried for us as marketers. Reckoning is coming and many of US listening to this program and and hopefully those they're listening won't have this impact them because they'll learn from this conversation today but those that aren't listening today they'll be jobs lost over this issue going forward and anyway. I wanted to bring it to light. You'll listen with intently. Into what Yego is talking about in the pivot that his business has gone through in. Us foreshadowing the pivot. I think that marketers should be thinking about especially in regards to their digital marketing efforts today so without further ado. Here's Diego Diego. Welcome to the show very happy to be here. I think this may be the oddest way. I've ever met a guest in fact that we came to know each other via tweet on the recent episode with Kevin Fresh on the Uber Ad Fraud Case. And so I think this is the first time a tweet has ever introduced me to a future guests so I don't know what to make of it. Well I'm happy to be the first the first time of anything. So yeah I mean I just to recap what happened there. You know there was a lot of the tape viral reactions to your great podcast Kevin Fresh but some of those were they I would save me misrepresented and basically there was one in particular that talked about how Terry will display. Traffics in general and that kind of caught my attention because not all display. Traffic is equal and basically display traffic. What a champ save. Somebody's talking about your product. S BEING THERE WILL. You can help coming out and had the family. So that's how we we connected when you're absolutely right. I think in particular some mentioned that the Uber case was based around programmatic. And it wasn't it was display ad. Networks be clear. And you're absolutely right about clarifying that point so help me. Set the record straight on programmatic versus display ad networks and source. You Bro. Yeah sure so. So what happened or what? What was being talked in those tweets? An interview you know it. It talked about both Ad Network and programmatic display traffic in the same way. And there's a very big difference between those two. I mean I can understand how people not in the space or in the industry can can confuse both because at the end of the day. They are both connecting advertisers in that case over to an aggregate supply of publishers. That's in broad terms what they do now. The key France between those two worlds how they connect those advertised on the publishers. So on the AD network model which which I would equal to the field actually now have one hundred people on twitter defending the affiliate model but on mobile in particular the AD Network Mall a affiliate model and it's basically a very manual and and transparent way of running traffic on a particular campaign. Now the programmatic way which I would prefer. I mean it's it's also called or you can also call it. The companies that run primary traffic. You normally call them. Dsp's and the acronym stands for demand side platform basically the way they connect the advertiser and the publisher is through a real time bidding which he sent automated way of feeding on a particular adding pressure and showing that at and basically in a real time beating the chain from the ad being displayed. All the way to let's say a click and a purchase or whatever happens inside an APP. That's all basically recorded. And it's transparent when the advertiser was to cede any effect in most of the speech. You can see that by default transparently now in the AD network world. You don't have that trace. Basically what you have is a tracking link that a publisher or an ad network can basically put anywhere and generate attributions generate clicks installs purchases and so on and the way that works. He studied leafs itself very open to fraud and manipulation. In fact we've seen cases where tracking links click tracking links. Were being triggered by impressions so every time an impression was happening the NBA was reading that as a click. So you can you imagine the difference in income version there and that's just one little example. There's many many ways of reading these game now. I'm not saying and I never said that there is absolutely no fraud in the programmatic world. There some bodies different from what you see that networks any slowed harder to. It's harder to find again because the default setting away for the piece is full. Transparency throughout the whole conversion final which is something you do not have in the AD network in the non parametric world basic exactly is that does that make sense. It does make more sense. Hearing you describe it. In the fact that it's the transaction tied out if you will in the or programmatic side versus just being unique tracking links. Frankly on the display network. I one thing I might add that baby the other way we know these world very worries because we've been in both worlds so when I started we were actually so we were never an ad network ourselves but we were in aggregate their five networks and basically we discovered that most of the non transparent ad network traffic was actually further and every time we had an issue when you know something that up and we start looking at what was going on we found fraud and we started developing actually at the time most of the technology. We were hoping was to catch the fraud and filtered out before it even happened so before we will send that traffic to our advertisers. Then we realized it was really kind of a full Sarah because he was sixty seventy eighty percent of the traffic in some instances. And that's when we realized no. Maybe maybe it's time to be and get out of Edison's pivoting your business model because of the fraud. You're seeing. Tell me about that that that has to have been a painful somewhat. Painful transition may be very painful. I don't know yes. It was definitely very painful and it was something that took some time for us to realize that we had to basically as I said before these. Instances of fraud kept getting more frequent and every time we researched. What was going on? We would find. That fraud was not the exception. But the rule in most cases and in most ad networks were working with so basically we kind of looked into the future said. Hey if we don't think species would be around in the next twenty four months. This was early twenty years later. Sixteen early twenty seventeen when we're looking at this and say hey let's get out of this. Let's start basically shifting all our media buying to our DSP at the time we already have developed a DSP but it was still a very small fraction of the traffic. We were acquiring. Why because think that when you were comparing both sources of traffic always lead the fraudulent? Pretend traffic was always better. Because he'd pretend you know so when you are when you're buying something that he's magic and always works well and has a very high degree of conversions and the Kospi installs are very low and the cost practitioners very low. How are you going to compete with the real world? So we made the decision and in fact we made a plan which meant that within six months and that was now early twenties and that we were going to get out completely so get completely out of a number of matic and that involved communicating our customers and that that was the task. Oh fire sales team and our account stay mostly and the communication was both. Hey I cannot sell you the anymore but I want to say to these other thing but then that came with a high degree of trying to evangelize. Why the old stuff was spied and the new stuff with better and those very hard then from an accounting of you and and you know the the the people in operations running the actual combat they had to get completely retrained. Their previous job was to basically manage ad networks and managed performance that way and the new way of doing things was basically setting up the campaigns on the bidding platform which was completed everything to an infrared technology. Point of view. We had to be a basically ready to scale when we started. This was five percent of traffic. And now it's one hundred percent and then ready to make that in the smartest possible way and that means being able to ingest a ton of data which is something we require from advertisers. They have to share with us. Everything that goes on inside the APP and then the platform has to use that to basically make the best purchase or beating the bushes when bidding on the exchanges. Basically trying to guess or estimate. What's the likelihood of a particular adding Breshin into producing a great user? So a user that will either click on an ad or install a particular APP and then convert and buy something or or. They're book something within within that up and one thing. I should say to our experiences only on mobile an only on APP so everything is on the mobile APP world. Not on their stop nor on. That's a world that we have nothing to lose weight and I don't have any experiencing right. No that makes sense that makes sense said so just for listener. Sake I WANNA recap a little bit what we've been talking about. But just to underline few savings so we met through the Uber Ad Fraud Episode. But around that time when that at proud was coming to light for. Uber. You're noticing fraud. In your own aggregation of AD network buys you're starting to filter out Fraud and realize that it's sixty two potentially eighty percent or higher above the volume. If you will. I guess that you're trying to buy your like. This is not sustainable. We have to get out of this business you. You didn't say okay. We're GONNA put our business from ninety five percent of what we're doing to the five percent that we think might be good traffic. Retrain everybody inside the company and Reorient everyone around by percent of your business to try to grow the business at that point. I got it right. You got it exactly right which one the idea and say which is important is that these couldn't have been done with the support of some of our advertisers. That understood the difference. Actually over was one of those so around that time. And this is what will shirt by caving in your interview so during that time is when over basically decided to stop completely number traffic and we were one of the partners that at the time was so we were working with her at the time but only with programmatic traffic so they were one of our very early adopters. Let's say that said we'll keep working with champ as long as you do any number matic and and that helped us. I love the technology. We develop that time and the way we grew our the spe- and and grew our technology or improved are beating algorithms had to do with Uber and others that were understanding that that was the way through and even after today their articles stalking these over only doing programmatic. They're they're not doing anything else in in display. Then they're doing social stuff gray right so you've got a couple. I don't know exactly the right number but you got a few a handful of advertisers. That are supporting you through this transition. What are the other advertisers saying the other marketers coming to the table? You're basically saying can't sell you cheap inventory anymore. That is super interesting because that's something that that was probably the hardest thing and need was and it's purely a lot of that to happen today and what would happen so the typical meeting will go with your legs. We would sit down with show the evidence we would show them how the traffic they had been buying so far. Not only from us but from other suppliers in particular ad networks. We showed them how things could add up. And we show them. Why programmatic was the way to go and the transparency they would get an. We showed that as a consequence of that cost would have to go up but he would have to go up because what they were spending on before was just no real. They were not buying anything. I mean dealer. Today they were just paying for their either for organic traffic or for traffic. They had acquired in a legit way from other sources like facebook or other sources. Now the advertiser would go like. That's amazing guys like thank you so much for sharing that so yes. Let's go up romantic but I still WANNA pay a one dollar cost per install and theater. Cpa and you know our jobs would drop and we'd be like but didn't understand but which is Stoli and the talk like that. That's how great and I love it. And that's definitely the way to go but you know. I'm GonNa fictionalized which has spent one hundred million bucks on crab. I can't just turn around and they'll to my board my CEO. That I just threw his money away so I I cannot explain this. I cannot of justify these changing Gos- and that happened and limited. It's still happens so it's A. The extreme reaction was the overreaction where they said you know what we're going to go out in public and exposes and we're going to sue are Agency or sewer suppliers that were selling this crab but most companies didn't do that and in fact there's almost no other case at least that I'm aware of where they did something similar and the most the most frequent scenario that we saw in our customers will a strategy of basically facing out gradually the crappy traffic and blending it with good traffic process. That would eventually get them to one. Hundred percent paramedic traffic. So that's that's the most cases and still happens today a bit too much and the thing that is widely misunderstood as Wurley that you cannot contain or basically isolate the freemen traffic from then on foreign traffic. Why because the foreign traffic is fraudulent. Because it means appropriates attribution from legitimate traffic so basically if you spending money in the right places. You're impairing your success or your being tremendously your own efforts by buying foreign traffic. Because it's again. It's IT'S REDUCING. Its stealing the accusations from the from the LEGIT TRAFFIC. And and that's why one of our commissioners due to work with. Isis is to make sure that they don't spend money on AD networks and affiliate traffic is. We know that hurts our results of volda understand. I mean if I'm just trying to get into your mindset during this period of transition. Sounds like it's still happening. Where marketers are saying. No I love what you're doing in. Yes that's the right way to do a book. Can you get me some lower traffic? Did you did you? This was going through this transition. Did you worry about the business like this business that he founded heavily? These are sort of I mean it was appealed moment no pun intended but it was a futile loan for business because it could have killed us. We didn't know if these GonNa work and in fact based on everything we knew at that point. It wasn't gonNA work because most of the advertised her buying whereby an crap most of them were kind of happy with it. And we know who's going to work but we had a great conviction that we had to do the right thing. We didn't want to sell something that we knew frozen than bad and we said hey we want to be on the good side of these and hopefully the good guys win here and we'll see and again. We were lucky because I think we were lucky. In a number of ways but we had a number of advertisers that understood and supported us and we caught a beautiful of a wave or fail wind. That let us make that transition without suffering too much what happened. That ear is that the company has a whole didn't didn't grow. We dingo down either but we we stayed stagnant bide our programmatic revenue group massively and then by the second year of the spy Tony Eighteen. We had gone to one hundred percent basically and he was hundred percent for and they know sleep. You know that that brought other challenges mostly to with the infrastructure and because suddenly we had all these data and we had all these ultimatum activity that that had to go through our own technology and through our pipes and that would be harder than we had in. Dc baited and things broke a number of times. But now things have normalized. Now there will in You've switched your business to programmatic in in your own. Dsp Are you still struggle with frog in even in the new system? Sounds like they're still fraud but We don't struggle with fraud within our traffic and we don't have a lot of fraud conversations with their customers. So let's say the the issues we have with fraud are not to defend our thing like they were when we were per medic but the conversations are about. Why are you spending on ethnic doors while you're spending on the space? It doesn't make any sense. So that's how we struggle with that a lot of the advertisers and I'm talking about large brands that everybody knows that still spend on very shady stuff and for me? I find it very hard to explain behavior that that I just don't get it because remember that the number one feature of known traffic is that you get no transparency whatsoever. So you don't know where that money's being spent you don't know who were the publishers. You don't know anything and pretty basic thing to ask from your media partner to share with you were are those dollars being spent and that's something you don't get if you're spending So that's still happening. That's the Congress to those. Are The conversations? Were having sorry. We're having more without reducers. The conversation has switched a little bit more than criminality testing or lift or lift testing. Where you through? Different ways tried to prove a. What's the actually backed that media by hat on conversions or on events on purchases or bookings or whether it is you're measuring and we tried to focus conversation on that so we actually spend a lot of time and resources in developing our own lift testing technology. In fact we have something that does he domestically and for free we go speeding's or ghost bidding means that instead of actually running ads to a navy test. You study the behavior fanatic. Britian that you would have bought through an exchange and compared to the impression that you'd eat by the end and see how how that results in in purchaser for conversions. So that's we tried to focus the conversation on that instead of fraud because at the end of the day eve you can prove that the adding Britain's that you showed generate the purchases and you can prove that in a solid scientific way than that. That should be good enough and the advertisers. I'd get it. That's what they asked for now again. Do about the question. We have very sophisticate. The conversations with advertisers that question our and rightly so question our traffic and have great that conversations but then we find that they also spend the night networks and ask any of these from those guys and I don't fully understand why that happens but it still happens happens do you have any impacts from some of the APPS that are out there that are not exactly sure the right term to call it but that are looking for people to Example just because it's an easy example but I go to the APP store or Google play wherever the Google golden is a tight end U B E R and as soon as I hit our and start download the UBER APP floods iphone or fires off all the attribution pixels. You've struggled with that problem as well as it's not your inventory but I as you probably still impacted by it Nikkari. Yes so basically. That's less likely to happen on on items. You see more of that on on an android now. Yes I mean. It's part of the fraud I'm talking about and it's basically attribution fraud like we've seen things where you basically you don't even have to click on your playing a casual game and the game finishes and it just starts firing befriend ads and within basically twenty five seconds. You get ads for Ben. Fifteen APPS and the only point of that is to get the attrition stolen so basically if you are shown an ad that counts as a view of that ad and because attribution works. Most advertisers will work on view through attrition. That means that between the period that an ad was shown to someone and a conversion that gets attributed to a particular supplier. That still happens and it's one of the things that happens now again much more likely to happen in the number Mary world because then when you trace that it doesn't make any sense when you look at the logs any sense and that's something you know. Salon owner the Sp. You can request the logs that show you every single transaction or every single step. Let's say in the final from the bid on the AD exchange all the way to the publisher all the way to the actual ad that was shown what kind of create divorce. It was in an interstitial a video a banner than the lake and then what happened with that user after the click. So that's something that the speaker provide not sending out network comprising Aga it. Would you feel like in your opinion having gone through this? And Change Your entire business owner. The biggest misconceptions of Ad Fraud today singled question. I mean I. I've I feel like maybe the biggest misconception has to do more with with the kind of traffic than the fraud citing in fact the sore so far connection is a big misconception. Talking about display traffic at the same way as programmatic and putting all in the same bag he said because it's actually scary to me that marketers Donald Difference and based on what I saw when I listened to your podcast and the reactions afterwards and comments on linked data and on twitter many people. We'd like titles like marketing manager or growth manager. They didn't know the difference or they appeared to know the difference. I don't know I mean. Maybe they need that money. It seems to be still a very confusing matter and not everybody has the same understanding of it. And that's already a big big misconception. Because it's if you think that all display traffic is equal then you think they're all equally fraudulent and I explained quite a bit. Why why that's not the case. No that makes sense. It makes sense. I mean if you were to advise those marketers or or chief. Marketing officers of began about trying to combat at broad. Where would you tell them the start in? What would be your advice? That's a good question. I mean I think the first thing I would advice to buy media that keeps you transparency so if you could have Dane polisher level transparency so you at any point track exacly where your ads were shown and you can request any doesn't know most advertisers or marketers are not chicken. Sold the time but just knowing that you can do it at any time and that that database available for you makes a big difference so that that would be my my number one thing. The second thing is this so the traditional ad networks and affiliate moral actually is a CPA immortal. So it's you know buying a cost precision and the the misconception insight. World is no risk if I'm buying a CPA name only for conversions now. The problem is that the tradeoff that ad networks have traditionally made his. Hey I bake the Venturi risk buying media so in exchange of that a don't get transparency. Mb only pay when generate that version. And I would argue that that is the main culprit of the fraud issue. Because he'd has booed I load of incentives on fraudsters to fake conversions and fake attribution. Now if you're paying CPM if you're paying CPM to publishers. Let's say which is the way to get paid by the way on programmatic. There may be an incentive to fake impressions. But that's not going to get you anywhere. If you generate clicks and conversions and maybe by. Maybe that's more of a proponent for brand advertisers because they're looking for adding impressions for performance. That's harder to trick so if you're a publisher that you know is going to be paid on a CPA RACE. Which again is the case of ad? Networks then everything in your power to fake the eighty here so the fake and acquisition fake. Install faker. But if you're GONNA be measured in adding precious that's that's how to and especially if you track that every point. Which is what you what you do with romantic now number three I would say incriminating or uplift testing so. Ask Your usurpation and retargeting partners. The ultimate question which. He's helped me understand how every dollar that I spent with. You has come back to me in versions in purchases in bookings so help me understand that and helped me see. What's the return on this advertising borders so I think if you are doing those three things so one having the possibility of transparency or having access to what happened with the daughters that he spent too not buying? Cpa and this is super counter. Intuitive AND SUPER CONTROVERSIAL. And people can tweet me all they want and complain about this but not be because the reasons. I just mentioned and three measuring left or incriminated so measuring the actually backed that your daughters had on bookings or revenue or sales or whatever it is that you're measuring inside the APP and if any supplier has an issue with any of those three things than something smells funny because you shouldn't be afraid to do any of these things if what you have your offering is kosher basically if you're if you're happy to show what you're setting and what you're buying fascinating. I applaud your efforts to a home in your integrity. Frankly of changing your business because of the fraud that you're seeing in light of your customers asking you to do something else in a world where marketers love talk about customers interesting having to buck that trend with your own customer base to say no. This isn't good for you so I'm glad there are people out there like you. I. I'm Afraid Frankly for marketers that we've now seen to your point. It may be the only one that we've seen lawsuit but the largest lawsuit for ad fraud brought by Uber on its agency or ad network partners I feel like the day is coming where marketers are going to be at a minimum fired for their fraudulent buys that they're doing with company sources or worse prosecuted because of their negligence. So if you if you want to continue my opinion on that so I think that there was an art theatre on these Somewhat recently I think not exchanger but I'm not sure I believe that there needs to be some sort of like I mean an ambitious theoretical right. But which would almost have a sort of amnesty where everybody kind of goes. Hey guys. Let's come clean. We've all been spending on these we will be in the. This is the sort of reset from now on. We'll agree and this is what we think that's never going to happen right. So it's very complicated and might take on. It has been has always been. It's complicated any keeps happening. Because it's kind of like a victimless crime. Here because look at it this way. So the market. They're reaching his or her goals and showing great numbers to management the AD networks making money b. m. b.'s. Making money because they make money on on volume as well the publishers. Making money basically everyone involved these three. Oh Gay and the only when losing air is either. The advertiser the brand or if it said large. Vc funded company BBC's wandering the money away so it's a very hard to catch very everybody's doing okay. With these mostly until the puck stops somewhere and their speed if companies again like hoover and others that have realized and they have stopped it but in most places habit. They're very sick. You know they they look. We're buying users for one dollar. I'm a genius and that's hard to turn around and stop every think that they're genius because even your CEO again you're you're not you're CEO for fast growing up race hundreds of millions of dollars in VC money. And you know there's some report that you're showing in your board meetings that shows your CAC your customer cost and you'd be showing that for years you'd be showing a wrong number and may lean your whole business case. Maybe you're unique comics. Only make sense at that cost and you'd be showing the investors and raising money. And what are you GonNa do now? You find the truth you find. Cfo comes we receive nation letter English. I am an ivy throwing money away for two years. What are you GONNA do? It's a very hard thing to do. I don't blame anybody. It's it's hard it's hard and re let's say the consequences of our realization. Were low because sweep. We decided to do it. And we all knew we were doing. And we're risking our company. Five Year. We came clean and and do it but I understand white so difficult for everybody else would sounds like it. Sounds like if you can get to the other side year in a better place today and maybe that's what we should leave marketers with today that it's hard you bet your company but year in a much stronger better more full place today because of going through that definitely. I mean I think that the market in the long term rewards doing the right thing and that that should work for marketer Sarah. That won't do the right thing. And and come clean. We joke when we to go out For our long we haven't used ad networks week in terms of like we've been clean for three years. We've been sober for three years because because hey it's it's like a drug you know it's it's cheap it works. It gets gives you a height seeking so yeah. That's that's that's what's happening as recently at a at an event with a bunch of associations in a couple of consulting people in the use the term this is marketers crack. We got a break or crack here but yeah now. It's I appreciate you coming on and telling the story. I want to switch gears a little bit. I do this with everyone. Comes on your no exception and I'd love to ask you a couple questions more about U. M. I. Favorite question to ask is his their inexperience of your past that defines or you are today look. My experience is that I've been an interpreter or my life since college. I actually studied my first business out of college with my current steal my co-founder so we joked that we've been together for more than than we've been with our wives we've been there for more than twenty years. At the time we studied a an online survey busness that we ended up growing and eventually selling to a publicly listed company and then after that is how we started jam. Actually jammed is the B word of yet another business so we studied a gaming business that failed. And that's how are we to jump but in my case you know how you have. Those families doctors that everyone in the family doctor running the family's lawyer and you have these skates that. Feel the pressure to study law. Study medicine in my case everybody in my family interpreter from my great-grandfather through my father and and I actually had that pressure is I always thought that. That was the only way that I couldn't do anything else. And I was very lucky that my first venture very young I was nineteen when I started my my. I ended up doing very well which is not the usual thing that happens. Most he's actually fail. In our case it worked We survived the interval. So we studied ninety nine Raced a bit of money. Luckily we didn't spend the whole Internet bubble burst. We survived for a number of years and then studied doing pretty well. We started growing and authorised share. But I guess that kind of defined me and you know that's why am I am well? It makes sense. I mean obviously listeners are hearing accent Yom you. What do you made you as you grow? John gotti foreign joking gear so Argentinian Argentinian. So I'M I. I was born and raised in Buna Cyrus in Argentina and then I actually leave why year weird somewhat British accent Lived for seventeen years in London in the UK and then moved to California about a year and a half ago. So Yeah I. I've lived most of my adult life outside of Argentina and I have a very strong connection because my business at large chunk of space. There my co-founder Martha and he space. Cyrus I go there a lot. So yeah you know. Argentina's steeler very big part of. Ym Awesome what advice. Would you give that younger entrepreneur? That younger self of you. If you were starting all over again I would tell myself. Just go be a banker consultant or something. You live better have better hair stress less. Yeah I mean look I think that literally so I would tell my younger self that you can be whatever you WANNA be embiid. There's no pressure no matter what you do and you can be successful in many ways. Not just being a trip and Eric in fact being interpreted as pretty they least obvious way to a successful most entrepreneurs actually don't do very well and they look. I think that the other thing that we've learned along the way you know. We've had many crisis in many ups and downs with both our first basis and this one basically to being an entrepreneur. He's being very stubborn. When you need to be stubborn you know when the world the world is telling you that that you should give up. You should not give up but then it's also being flexible enough to know when you have to give out and to know when you have to change and it's a beater for blyleven arthritis to stay writing the meal sake. Hey when is should you push? When should you start? When should you change? When should you pivot? When should you be flexible? And I tell you that. In our case both in our first be center second current company Champ. We've changed our minds many times and we've changed our business model and we've changed. Many things and the concept of sunk cost in a startup is very dangerous to think that you cannot change cut so you know you something to change completely and that's fine. That's kind of what we've learnt important in. I can't remember who said this or wherever I WANNA say blanking on his name. But there's a Canadian Business School Dean or Business Professor. But in essence what's described as successful entrepreneurs or or have this innate capability to hold dueling thoughts and approaches in their head at the same time. I almost think it comes from like most people think entrepreneurs are inherently risk seekers. And I think that's all I think. Good entrepreneurs are risk mitigators and one way they do that is to hold two different possibilities in their head at the same time and easily pivot between the two depending on the information that they see. I completely agree. Yeah we're very liquid. We're like no. We are like one of our big motorcycles. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. And we're we're always you know. We always have a plan or heads and we always make sure that we have the right move. The weather turns or if something goes wrong way. You're you know. And that's you don't have that survivor instinct. It's it's pretty hard and a look. I'm also not going to deny that you need to lucky. You know something that you know. Lucky seven major thing. You know little things that that went our way we pretty lucky and and also you know. It's funny because when they asked. I took the entrepreneurship before. When people ask Stephanie. Okay well what? What are the main things you recommend that I will? I be born in a wealthy environment. So you you born in the in the right place and then v very lucky and then you can do the right thing and you can try to work out at in the not. Everybody has a safety net or can take the risks that maybe I took when I was young. You know and so it's yeah it's it's tough Two more questions for you. I think once quick will see the new question but I am stealing it from podcast here but I like it. A lot is would spend the most impactful purchase. You've made say in the last six to twelve months of one hundred dollars less. Wow I leaving the bay area. Nothing's worth less than half. I A single thing for an box here. Good one look someone to cheat. So Not. Only the price on the timeline. Because she something I bought or I I studied paying for a fierce cope. At least for yourself. I read a book at least a book two weeks because I listen to books when I'm driving or when I'm at the gym which unfortunately that's what happened that often these days but when I go on walks or on bike rides or so. I'm always listening to books and the people argue that that's not reading and I agree but it's better than nothing so if you don't have time so in my case I have I. I am Basilio time. I don't really have time to read books and when I tried to read a book at home I fall asleep after five minutes. Now this is the best way for me to read the absence of time so surveying and you can just you know really drive. Read while you do something else. And there's some great books out there most of the new nephew in troop. If you're into books they all come out almost at the same time on paper electronically an audible. So yeah and obviously PODCASTS FOR THE GATHERING. I do this podcast that those are normally free. So yeah which is not knowing agree in. I'm actually had the CMO of audible. John Heron on the show and I would agree. I mean I. I was in the car for four hours today. Driving in the was listening really listening. Frankly to a book that I really like on Audible Culture Code. So that's good I wanted to. I read a win the As Star so when I first started using ATI will this Steve. Jobs biography had just come out. I like they'd be gone. You know the the official one and it was a very thick book and I remember seeing that book but he's a big one and the audio. You're getting something like six hours long. I actually I had to go pick up a dog that so my dog. We picked him up from a farm somewhere. In England. The north of England and the drive was three hours there and three hours back and that was my first experience. We already will. We heard me and my wife heard the whole job spoke and I said well. That's no reading without reading a bristle that's awesome Last question for you you feel is the largest opportunity or threat to marketers today. And maybe maybe it's AD fraud we've been talking about citing is pretty clear so. I think I've I've mentioned the So I think that I feel that this is getting better and I feel that the world is the right direction from the point of view of transparency. And so on. I think that there's always These in things that people are not being attention yet so I think that that's either new platforms either new formats new types of creatives. I think using the maximum data possible to educate and customize. Your ads is a massive opportunity that most advertisers still not leveraging. So if you have data that you can leverage to customize your APP based on what your customers are buying or what they're reading and you can use that in a smart way to show an ad creative that will become more relevant and become more interesting to your potential customers. That's great and that's something that again. Most companies are not doing like we have to work very hard to convince our advertisers to do it and the impact. That has on conversion is massive. It's a myth theory really friends when you are you senior. They out and by the way in most cases this is completely anonymous. Eight that there's no you don't have to share identifiers. That can bring your privacy issue. It's just you sing. What you know sells more what you know your users like and again the impact these massive and I think that's pretty the beast over the why because suddenly you're ads become something useful your store and not an annoying at fic an ad. I WANNA fiction here but it could be a true. Fic Ali will add of a book. That I've been thinking about reading an orderly join me that ad based on my previous books that I read. That's not an annoying at for me. That's actually a service to me and I'm like I mean think getting this book. Boom I click. I get it and the same you can think about we foot. Billie Reed thing you can think restaurant booking in many categories you have data that you can use. Turn THAT ANNOYING. Add into something that is useful. That actually saves me a few clicks fairly. I mean thinking about going and then either it and we have the and when I say we just champ. But many companies out there have the capability to use that data leverage it while protecting your customers privacy. There's no privacy downfall there in fact it will only make adds more welcoming or they will make your customers see ads in a better way than if an annoying that he's not a targeting you. I mean media obviously I mean in the street I looking at. That's all the time but you know very often I get served with no stuff that clearly not for me and stuff that could have been very silly avoided which just beat of data so that I would say largely supported. Good Good Diego. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. An absolute pleasure Allen happy to come any time and if you have any questions let me know and if People WanNa fight me on twitter for anything I said. I'll welcome the the controller. Cnn discussing theater. Whatever your questions are also I. It's Alan again. Marketing today was created and produced by. If you're new to marketing today please feel free to write us a review on Itunes or your favorite listening platform. Don't forget to subscribe to tell your friends and colleagues about the show. I love to hear from listeners. And you can contact me at marketing today. Podcasts DOT COM. There you'll also find complete show notes links anything. We talk about any episode. You can also search our archives. I'm Alan Heart and this is marketing.

fraud Fraud publisher CEO Cpa twitter Alan Heart US England Sarah France Diego Diego Kevin Fresh Diego Miller Yego co-founder NBA
Cleantech Con Artists: A True Vegas Caper - Interview with Author/Historian Jim Rossi

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

52:10 min | 1 year ago

Cleantech Con Artists: A True Vegas Caper - Interview with Author/Historian Jim Rossi

"Welcome to ruin a bad guys day. Radio podcast with fraud experts skip buyers. This is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best fraud prevention solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team and held on prosecute criminals now. Here's your host skipped myers coming to you from atlanta georgia. This is the broadcast that gives you the knowledge in tools to help you. Rune back is day before they ruin yours. Hey thanks so much for tuning in to ruin the bad guys day radio podcast. Thank you so much skip myers. I'm the host sabrina bad guys day radio. I wanna start off by thanking everyone who continues to support the show and especially those loyal listeners keep sending in all that great feedback and all those terrific emails. Thank you very much guys as promise bad guys day radio radio. We'll be featuring some top fighters in the industry and fraud experts for two thousand nineteen day. I'm especially excited to introduce you so you. Jim rossi nationally came author and historian lengthy tap moist with over four hundred and thirty thousand followers. Wow that is awesome. Gem is author of this great. New book called cleantech. Con artist is a true biggest caper fantastic nonfiction story about crime and corruption said in las vegas so hey jim. I am so glad you could join us today how you doing. I'm doing great night's a little high here in vegas. It's cracking one hundred already by nine in the morning otherwise grain come into you know from atlanta gyms in vegas and this is the labor day regan o._b. The gadget in great and hope you hear this you know loud and clear very soon in some great information about jim's grave new book this coming out in is actually out and available on amazon zog so can you tell us a little about yourself in your book for our listeners yeah happy to you know i worked as a writer and this story story. This book started when i was in graduate you know during the great recession or my getting laid off and so i want to graduate school for history at u._n._l._v. university university nevada las vegas and is started out. I was going to be my first book about history. The history of solar energy that's what i was studying and then what happened is <music> over time as i met people in particular ah certain fellow name xavier it became fraud story wrapped in a history this awesome awesome new book is non fiction which is great and has so many in notes and all kinds of great information that really keeps the reader you know really captivated in your story but but he reads like a novel decree all that information and make it's really look like and what was a real challenge skipping into several years so yeah it has four hundred under sixty to end notes with over a thousand references and over eighty interviews. I did this over several years but he reads like a novel because in some sense is a novel because i root story in real life and let me just explain early on i met this cleantech entrepreneur names eighty eight went by the name of ax and i liked the guy but i it quickly became suspicious of them and the more i looked into it. I realized his name was probably an areas eventually figured out. It wasn't alias. I i eventually found out what his real name was. That's right around the time the f._b._i. Contacted me and at that point it was off to the races so at that point. I knew this was going to be my books looks so from the beginning to copious written notes every conversation collected emails are eventually i found legal legal requests to get emails from u._n._l._v. and different things also the con artist missed zieger and his colleagues were talking to other people eventually. Those people folded me text messages or emails. I interviewed most these people on the record. Now is able to reconstruct in a lot of cases bay by day hour hour by hour minute by minute face to face nose to nose. I two i was going on as it happened and so that's why it mead's really like a novel like i'm not just a reporter on actually the person driving action awesome for someone who's got that desire to investigate which looks like it's probably probably in your d._n._a. In somebody's just like a hyper active curious about information in drilling down to the truth you know how does a graduate student like you. This in history really wind up hunting down cars yeah. That's a great question because i'm kind of usually you know and so tell tell us about my background. I grew up in new jersey northern new jersey and through kind of a happenstance. I learned how to spot a con job before i hit puberty now called integration first second grade. We hadn't elementary school ran from like first grade eighth grade. I remember there was this older student named dave buco and he one time he came to our lunch table able and he really excited older. Kid was talking to us you know he was going around the table talking to us and then when he left we realized our cookies gone like we each got a cookie with our lunch. You know you're when you're in first grade. This is a big deal cookies so we started complaining. Eventually came back with the bagging dump down on iraq. Got a cookie on somebody else's cookie so what dave carlo had done was he had shown us show game in the thing was we had just learned from a master because dave decarlo he grew up to become. I'm david blaine the master illusionist oh awesome that's great yeah yeah so i spotted out from the time i was a kid and then you know i grew up i went to i got my bachelor's. There's degree at rutgers in psychology human evolution. I wanted to work as a writer so i did work as a writer. Investigative journalists for years actually won a couple. I wonder award for so oh i learned on the job how to find out information public records interviewing clues those kinds of things and what happened was just making as a writer in san francisco when the great recession hit and i was going to be out on my butt and so that's when i applied to graduate school so u._n._l._v. was not hard to get into but i got in and i got a graduate assistantship so they basically it was paying my tuition so that was a good that was the best deal you know. I went from san francisco. Go i was going to be out of outta my butt to graduate school basically without going into debt and so i was there studying win a studying solar energy and nats where our story begins awesome to really get your roots in investigations and fraud prevention or at least having acquisitive mine mine at such an early age and i think that's a lot of people listening today know exactly what you're talking about. You got the bug at an early age and somehow you're just a natural. That's that's great. I think a lot of our listeners can really really understand what that's like. 'cause we're all we're all very similar with that type of personality. You know hey jim you know in your book. You make a great point that you're not a journalist and almost made that same mistake when we first met and i want to apologize especially in today's news world is crazy with all the fake news right right definitely so you you know you weren't in journalism at the l._a. Times and elsewhere in earn a master's degree in journalism and you actually interviewed dozens and dozens of people have four four hundred sixty something in notes in this very book so can you explain a little bit further what you are really trying to explain the audience about you know the point that you're not a journalist but what we're really trying to do to achieve you know with the audience in this new book that you have sure escape. There's a short answer on the long the short answer i gave you. I the short answer is how how many guys out there. I've seen ferris bueller. Stay off may yes great scenery gets out of the shower. He said 'isms in my opinion are not good. I don't believe in 'isms. I believe in me is a good point there so partly. I'm not a journalist because i don't really like 'isms you know. I'm not a you know. I'm not i anarchist socialist. You know i just i try to understand things and so the longer answer is i'm not a journalist for number reasons one. I don't right in a journal. I mostly right on lincoln now in books so i don't write in a journal most journalists. The business model relies on game pay through advertising gene or donors or subscription. I don't do any of those you know and so another thing is too is. I really don't cover breaking news. I don't know i don't like covering like disasters tragedies in staff and that's how they make money. Try to write about solutions. I did not about how about a wildfire prevention. I've done that about water conservation. This book kind became an exercise in fraud prevention prevention and the so the thing is. I don't really report the story. If you read the book you realize a main character. I drive the story. No i started out. I tried to interview ex in his pals. Else didn't want to answer my questions. Eventually they started sending me season descent threatening to sue me but they kept trying to run scams around people. I cared about so that's what motivated me so i under the down <hes> that's awesome. Yeah you know in today's world with journalism. Yes getting a bad rap in and i remember long ago in law enforcement when we used to work bay cases says the journalists were reported told me one time if it doesn't bleed doesn't lead and that was kinda. Sad is all a lot of good information. News is out there. That should be newsworthy. Eh was never reported because it's not horrific enough and i think the general public needs more information like this that you put together in your in this book which is so informational and educational this. You really get out there so that's congratulations. That's awesome thanksgiving. The idea with the book is i wanted to write in entertaining story hooks you and then if i succeeded at the end almost by accident you'd be an expert at fraud prevention. Why don't they don't have a problem with getting more people. Woah no interest in your book. I mean you having over four hundred and thirty follower thirty thousand followers on lengthen it shows you can build an audience way more than most other other people including journalists who are out there just to make a buck so congratulations and <hes> gang ironically three quarters of his book so far. It is very entertaining very informational. Well it hooks you from the very beginning and i highly highly recommended. We'll talk more about jim's book as we go on but jimmy you mentioned in the book that during the great recession president president obama help bring in the motto. Everyone remembers us change. We can believe in in a lot of people that change. We can believe in statement. It's it came with seven seven hundred and eighty seven billion dollar recovery act which was passed in two thousand and nine and that act if everyone remembers laid out more money than ever before for clean clean energy and energy efficiency in gym with so much money going into cleantech energy at that time. Do you think that helped spawn new scams and new schemes to defraud the government permitted us the taxpayers skip. That's a great question in i covered in some detail the book let me say my short answer would be yes but in let me explain explain so the recovery <unk> about seven hundred eighty seven billion dollars total is about <unk> roughly ninety billion i think for clean energy and energy efficiency in roughly the about eleven billion in around the mojave desert vegas is the big city in the middle of mojave desert. There's a lot of money coming into vegas during the middle of the recession gene which was the worst economic period in the history of southern nevada because it was worse than the great depression because back during the great depression we had the original jopstone stimulus we had hoover dam so is actually a boom period here so this is the worst time in our history. You know vegas. A lot of ways is the fraud capital of the world in so you can kind of expect some things we're going to happen now. That being said i do not think clean energy is a scam but as i discovered in my book some of the people promoting moaning it all right in that lure of easy money seems to be really the the driving force in some of this some companies. If i memorized <unk> slid darah it was a company that went belly up from obtaining a lot of money from the recovery act as well yeah. I think he means slender. That's right right right and let me say to about acts in his neighbors. What was to your point was real. Interesting is act. One of the book is when i find out i i get to know him i._b._m. Suspicious agribusinesses is thaddeus in areas and i figure out with help of my friends. What is real name is at two of the both is when we go into his past asked to find out why he changed his identity in what we found out was that ex- in his pals bad basically gone into every industry as it was full of money you know he in the past he had done scams in real estate charities neuro linguistic programming n._l._p. Some of your listeners are probably familiar with you. Know not even had an elaborate phony video game company in colorado was so elaborate they had osu's they had a trailer had comic book. They had a bunch of employees writing code and so so i think he just filed. The money in the recession came being in vegas. It was a good time to run scams with a clean energy front absolutely scale like nice nice for little front too. 'cause i mean it feels good to people you're trying to do the right thing with cleantech energy and energy efficiency in i mean it really gets the public's attention because everybody nobody wants to try to do that and why not be a part of that but if you're lobster you really prey upon those emotions of people who want to be part of something as good as cleantech energy yet yeah exactly in one of the points make in the book. Is you know if people are naive or they're cynical. They're both at a lot of risk of <unk> naive. Leave is when you just blindly think. The best people in cynical is when you just blindly think the worst in either case you leave yourself vulnerable to fraud. I try to encourage people able to be skeptical. Skeptical is not cynical. Skeptical just means. I am not going to be convinced if anything without evidence exactly you know i'm so grateful you're part of the show because our driving force behind this show is the education awareness for most people so they were armed with that information nations so that bad guys can ruin arguing our day. We want to turn around and we want to use that information against criminals in ruined their day so that that's awesome jim in in in in a chapter that was really interesting to me. The chapter called vegas scam. You really get into the historian side of your personality in and really explain the history three of the mob the history hell las vegas has evolved through the years and you even explain little about machiavelli which hopefully samir guys can go back in your memory. Thanks remember a little bit of high school and college there but you know what motivated you to educate the reader and all of us to include those topics in your book great question couple couple reasons first of all i find it fascinating to think about how vegas got here and it was important to the story you know the mob organized crime really helped to build this city like it wasn't for them. This place wouldn't be here. You know a hundred years ago you know vegas was down nineteen o five so basically in one hundred years went from a little railroad stop to a major metropolis of two million people in you know these guys did it because they took the risks and so they actually really built something so what happens is on some level the line between right and wrong good and evil mirage in reality they kinda blur here they make sense and there's very good the reasons why people here don't trust the cost particularly the feds. If you go back the history of nuclear testing you're right outside the city of vegas. A lot of people got showered with radiation. It's been something for decades so there's kind of a natural distrust of also has to do with people not wanting to pay taxes and the mob you know paying cash and those those kinds of things i wanted to get into that. The second reason is there's a saying in history that i really believe one. Generation solution is next one's problem. I'm so we get into law. One fourth finally got the upper hand on the mob. If people seem movie casino they know it was it was wiretaps was closed circuit cameras the allow them to build systematically bill cases against the mob and eventually break the mob stronghold. Now the thing is the same as bugs not bullets. Didn't the mob bugs like right now. What what happened. No is learn how to exploit the technology to commit a crime and so that's why we have this epidemic of fraud using all kinds of emails phishing scams. It's condors using age old tactics but new technology allergy and mister x his friends are really a textbook example that and that's kind of why i spent so much time trying to understand what they're the doing and to blow it up in their faces us great in and for those who haven't read the book yet when you get to this chapter at least for me is very interesting now you thinking a little bit about the mob and how it affected las vegas and built las vegas when also to help technology in that region the united states especially las vegas has evolved through the years and exactly what jim said hell in that case with the f._b._i. Bugs took down the mob <unk> bullets and that is a great great point on how technology jealous in this case the good guys used it <hes> unfortunately the bad guys seem to be better at using technology than than the good guys isn't that right definitely and and let me mention go back to machiavelli really quick to as a historian you know i think he sometimes gets a bad rap because machiavelli he wasn't immoral. He was a moral in other words. He was trying to take the morality out of is analysis because he figure people have different morals the he was trying to show the actions and consequences right you do this. This is likely to happen in so that's kinda. Theme of my book is a quote from machiavelli. It is a double pleasure to deceive deceiver. That is basically what my both now. That's a great quote in that fits so perfect into what you're writing about and <hes> those joe. I haven't heard that <unk>. Make some notice because you can use it again to and <hes> go back to your history. Books are back to middle school in in learn a little bit more about this this great man and the prince which was something that the machiavelli's known for you're so definitely you get a crash course <unk>. We cover a lot of historical stuff like right in like a page or two as it's as relevant to the story notice this awesome you now you know so we're talking about the good guys and the bad guys and using bugs and bullets and stuff like that but something i was thinking about asking you why not just leave you know catching are investigating the congress just to the cops. Will you know why should just people like us getting the ball. You know it's a great question is a question that people ask me allot as the course of the story was going on and as i learned in the course of story there is way way too much fraud for tops the best the the nature of fraud. It's bet yeah it's very complex these hyper rational criminals especially these guys were talking about. These were not stupid people. They were very smart. Martin been trained in hypnosis nassar's afforest photoshop forgery. You know these people ran scams. Sometimes you know eight nine ten twelve months before they saw dollar. You know these are very smart. Patient people these people the feds are really going to get a beat on them and so as explained to me is offered not worth their time to spend billions of dollars with somebody in club fed for a year or two and the thing is even if they do even if you get a a civil judgment. What are the odds. You're gonna ever see a dollar low end. Here's the thing i've had bounty hunters who helped me in the book. The friendly friendly neighborhood bounty hunters as they explained to me they only get involved when they can recover money but the thing is is you have to understand is is almost never your money. It's the money from the next game hero and you have to think about that so basically in <unk> ounce of prevention is worth way more than a pound of cure if you know if you wanna protect yourself from fraud the police will tell you this don't count on the police is just too. It's just too difficult users too much of it going on so <music>. I believe the best defense is good offense and that's really like. I said what this book is. How like deceiving the deceiver knows <unk> great advice. No one is on a care about your your finances your personal information your home in your car more than you. Are you think it might be the police with jim's exactly right. There's too many other parties in players out there that are having problems everyday that the place to answer those calls too so you need to take your physical security personal security very seriously yourself. I i inform us. Definitely i will say skip. I mean you should take it very seriously but maybe not quite as seriously as i did. Now i think a lot of people reading this book about two-thirds away eight through. They're going to start feeling sorry for miss because when you get when you get on my bad side i'm not a nice person like a monster caged up in there yeah like i make the point point in the book is not like in you could probably appreciate this as being a police officer and investigator is not that i can't be diabolical is that i choose not to because is i like people. I'm a good person but if somebody gives me an excuse watch out in l. e. absolutely that that's true of most people i think those those who are listening to this radio show today and i thank everyone who tuned in is that you know the good guys you haven't <unk> in the that edges knowing how bad guys act and being truth truthful with yourself in your own emotions and feelings in that's part of our superpower to investigate fraud and understand it is just really controlling that that monster within so that you can really i guess bring out the best in yourself to fight the fraud because you don't want we do not want across salon and be like well. That's a great point. Scaping actually brings me to like early on in the book. One of the things that tip me off made me suspicious xavier was that he wasn't the thing was. He never tried to scam me. He was very a hands off he was i got the sense that he was trying to stay away from me and i think that what he was picking up on was that edge that skepticism because what happened and i think this is a useful lesson for people was. I've gotten to know this guy. A different clean energy events lectures conferences stuff like that this go around vegas constantly in he mentioned he was clean tech entrepreneur they designed solar panels and stuff and so i was really excited i was learning about that. It's in school at the time and so i would ask some specific questions about it. You know just general curiosity. You know. The thing is most people when you meet somebody in your profession. Usually the trouble is to get them to talk. That wasn't a problem with him. You know he he he did not provide specific answers to specific questions. He would kind of excuse himself anna. That's just how he was. He was trying not to give me any information. Make me suspicious but the active him. Doing that made me suspicious you write in your book. You can tell i think after you said the first time you met him. I'll just use some of our own my my own terms. Your spidey senses up. You knew something wasn't right about this guy he and what i call it ever since i was a kid i suffered from z b t zero the toughness you in it's a combination of intuition in facts right like i had a feeling about him and i mentioned it like early on in the book. I've been on a conference with him and he had basically got a new position where he he wanted to be mentoring our students at u._n._l._v. l._v. and i went to bed and woke up in the morning and i had this very vivid dream and the dream was from a book. I hadn't read since eighth grade. I had a dream about the catcher in the why people read that book. The expression catcher in the rye was they asked holden caulfield what he wants to be when he grows up and he said i have this dream is a big field with a cliff on the edge if the kids get to near the cliff my job is to save them. I'm a big neck so they don't fall off the cliff. I would just be the catcher and i was like whoa ooh. That's pretty powerful so my intuition was very strong but it was just a feeling i need facts. I need evidence to pursue it and that's really we were there is blood in the water and i can not <unk> when you mentioned catcher in the right in the book i had to go back and and kinda scratch my brain a little bit and i and i looked up some things on the on the web about some great quotes out of the book that would fit into what you're saying one of the quotes of the catcher of the rye in some y'all may remember this but what's great. Is that <hes> <hes> one of the coaches all you have to do say something. Nobody understands and they'll practically do anything you want. You know so that's kinda curious about some of these connors in foster's they can talk while like you said i mean with a lot of b._s. And make people believe they're true and honest because most people you may not know exactly what they're talking about if they say it enough in its ally the lie becomes a true. I think we've heard that before too. Yeah great points given especially because xavier as it turned out now acts had been traded hypnosis n._l._p. Neural linguistic programming so he was looking for people who are susceptible and he would use his language to try to hypnotize is on a navy. Just a real quick example of this inaction was once. I realized he was suspicious. I had checked his resume his lithium profile his former implores is former schools in things didn't add up and so we started asking people around town who knew him start filling up a notebook with anything that people remember in somebody. Remember remember when these conferences he didn't like to talk to me about solar energy but he had spoken to somebody else and he said he had this new solar company and they were testing six sided solar panels. They were testing them in this era desert so i was like why are they testing sahara desert at that time these companies were testing them in nevada because we have our to desert and son as why didn't he testing them in the saharan. You said somebody asked that and he said because it's hotter it's hot year round in the sahara. He can and get better efficiencies on panels. You because vegas is in the mom your mom's cold <unk> yeah but the thing is here's the here's the kicker skip i'd been studying. I took engineering classes in solar panels for reasons. I don't completely understand. Semiconductors actually conduct slightly better in cold weather five to ten percent interesting so yes so his answer was b._s. And i was like you know because if you don't get better efficiencies he's in hot weather. You get better efficiencies cold weather so you know if he was actually a solar panel engineer. He would know that so the ad that moment. I knew that he wasn't really a solar panel escort. The little that i know about computer equipment and servers and some our listeners could could probably say yesterday is m._o. Servers in in computers work much better in a cooler learn virement. Your server room in your organization isn't wise always air. Condition is at a cool temperature otherwise vegas too hot. What happens while is just now. Oh yes definitely lake right now. If you depending on what your solar panels are made out of the manga roofer we have big farms of mountain. A desert vegas is like today. It's going to be one hundred ten hundred twelve degrees. You probably gonna generate sunny out though you're probably generate five to ten percent less electricity than you would on a dead in january everything else says goodbye meet a fact evidence based answer and that's exactly the kind of answer that he didn't wanna give me because he was worried that i i would spotted <unk>. You know we were talking about before. I totally agree with what you said that. There's just so much fraud out there. There's just too much out there for the police to investigate in west great that i read in chapters nine and ten in this is great. All you need to get to these chapters is how you explain when the f._b._i. Yes guys when the f._b._i. Actually called jim and wanted to learn more about his research and that had such a great feeling. You know i'm sure at first you're a little nervous a was f._b._i. Calling me it doesn't normally happen but how did that. Make you feel known. If b is actually interested in your research yet you know honestly skip at that point and you've read through the book differs emotion emotion. I felt relief because one is. I knew i wasn't in trouble and the f._b._i. Coal me and they were like you're not in trouble. You're under no obligation to speak to us but meeker. We're going to ask you exactly announced funny because i was headed to the golf course add my golf bag over my shoulder when they call and says put this back you know he's at that point i had discovered. Mr xs realized that at that point i'd interviewed people from his past. I was convinced that he had engaged asian fraud in at that time still understand all the dynamics of it and i was certain metaphysical certain that he was engaging in fraud in my community is trying to scam money from people. I cared heard about so. I had already gone to the police and like i said the f._b._i. Couple of days later called me so we can't even for white. What happened so i was excited. At that point. I went to the f._b._i.'s headquarters in vegas. I went through the metal detector. Searches often actually gave them a briefing. Get your interface also about an hour forty five minutes dastardly photocopy my notes install and at that point. I figured you know hey look. I caught this criminal defense edsel deal with it as it turns out. You're not gonna be bit more complicated than that. The s sounds like <unk> f._b._i. Is a little <hes> what very methodical and very precise. This is that with their investigations bitchy. You learned that pretty quick right definitely an also you know. They have to pick their spots. That's how the feds explained it to me. You know <unk> you know. Some people do wind up getting busted. Some people it's rough. Justice is bankruptcy civil judgments. Some people get all you. They tried to <hes> he explained to me. It's like the seren- gatty a more bunch of lions but there's only so many fraudulent zebras rocket goes back to what you said earlier so much fraud and just not enough time for the police investigate at all yeah definitely my sense of it. Is you know i wish the the f._b._i. Would spend less time on this political nonsense in washington stuff in spending more time. Actually catching criminals out in the field mice senses the the f._b._i. Agents did i know current and former ones in the field are doing related job but i'm not like super pleased with what their bosses are doing. The general public would agree agree with you. I think it would serve them best as a fraud practitioner to really <hes> from a p._r. Standpoint really buses. Fraudsters are actually victimizing people like us everyday. That's only like i say in the book. You know does that trillion dollar per year problem u._s. When you consider fro cyberfraud intellectual the property thefts and exit his pals were engaged in all these things as i discovered in my book trillion dollars a year in the u._s. Long four trillion globally globally in years and years and years of human work. You know people are in money to put their kids through school to pay health insurance to pay off their mortgages. You yeah no florida's just because it doesn't involve violence is not a victimless crime is some of the people that accident. His friends ripped off. You know these where people with a retirement money those kinds of things and that's the reason why i went mini-van him said to assume that people are victimized. They don't sure hear what happened to them. Out of embarrassment or you know this very emotional to them. It is very shameful to them so a lot of these fraud cases that are out there go unreported and the bad guys crossers especially people like who you're talking about. Prey upon that thinking that a lot of victims of crimes will never report the crime because out of fear of humiliation or rejection other friends in shame and so forth so there's a lot more father goes out there every day and unfortunately there's a lot of processors trousers like this one who are preyed upon people just like that definitely ex had two qualities made him a genius made in various successful at this one one. He was very expert at drawing people into a gray area so that they would be less likely to go to the cops what they were doing was. Maybe not quite on the up and up in the second. He was a man he's a master at is concealing evidence and so he was very good at drawing people into a gray area so that they felt l. ashamed or not willing to go to the cops and then he was very good at covering his tracks so that there wasn't a clear chain visible evidence. A lot of other in previous cases the chain of led to somebody else. That's quite masterful in that is the basic definition of fraud isn't as it to remain hidden in hidden from the actual actual person this that's actually perpetrating the fraud and is like you said earlier shell game so let's try to get the information or the fraudulent information or are the crimes were committed to make it point somewhere else other than me into take the good guys off track chase somebody else or chase. Their tail in most cases definitely definitely my working definition years. Maybe a little different is fraud is telling lies didn't money at one of the things if you're thinking if somebody's approaching something and this goes into fraud prevention. Something seems to be true if it's anywhere in telling lies to get money madison red flag absolutely so i've having taken down some notes you know. I'd like to talk a little bit more about what we sorta. Brush on earlier about the house of prevention is better than ounce of cheer and i really really glad that none so too often people just don't know what to do. You know when the victim of a crime or fraud so what what do you think people can do jim to be more more proactive about fighting fraud. Will i think in very simple terms. You know people talk about talking the talk vs walking walk. I think people need to focus on walking. The walk hill lemme explain facts over emotions like your motions are fine like i said i had suspicions about this person sometimes you have you have emotions about all the great business opportunity it's fine to feel those emotions unique fax to act on the emotions and she performed basic due diligence and this has to do with if somebody is applying for a job with your company if somebody is applying to be your real estate broker you're stockbroker. We're your dentist your doctor anything like that. People send you emails basic due diligence where i mean by that will with mr x. You know i spent several a years researching this book but only to emails to find out that he wasn't who he said he was and so what happened was. I got his linked in and i contacted one of his former employers contacted one of the schools he said he graduated from the former employer was vicar soft had no record in the school had no record of somebody not with that name as it turned out nameless alias i eventually started doing public record searches and stuff as you know those things can be very time consuming thing ones by doing that basic nick due diligence. You know look at somebody's anybody wants a business relationship with you spend five minutes to take a look at their employment history going back. Take a look at the reviews views of their company. They're a dentist or doctor <unk>. Look at the reviews online. Take a look at their linked in profile. You know if you find something. That's kind of a red flagged. That doesn't add up. You don't need to necessarily solve the mystery you deserve. Thanks to people too often. People are just too trusting or are as is a blind trust. I mean i i still like ronald reagan sanyo trust but verify before you commit to some absolutely i was my boss's advice in the book trust but verify are fine also supreme court justice louis brandeis sunlight is the best like get some get some facts and the thing is too is usually never never feel any time you feel rushed to make a financial decision. That's a red flag. Exactly i mean some <unk>. Obviously it's different if you know if you have like a medical condition you'd have to be operated on. That's different situation but when somebody else is trying to rush you into making a financial decision. That's a red flag. You know i think to you know wants people that are on read your book jim and sort of talked about this pre podcasts but most people don't read your book. They're not even be aware of it but because you develop your own expertise in fraud prevention and fraud investigation that these people reading a book i mean they don't become an expert too with spotting fraud and understanding dan how to i guess use different technologies in things just like you said to figure out whether or not someone is trustworthy was so important nowadays <unk> days. Do make sure you don't have to become a victim and you make a great point over and over again performed that basic due diligence before you go into business with somebody <hes> heck. I mean we do that before we hire a babysitter for a kiss i disown understand why more people don't do it when they go into the business with somebody else definitely and i mean i don't i think anything is one hundred percent but i think the basic due diligence in the things that i kind of <hes> reinforce in hammer home in the book i need reuse your address fifty percent fan seventy percent ninety percent because you're gonna spot the sayings and like i said you're doesn't necessarily mean. You're going to solve the mystery but you know enough to say. No because you know there's so many practitioners i listened to remain guys day radio show their appreciate <hes> this next set of questions in discussion here where we are in. Were you included the fraud triangle which is which is great in <unk>. That'll understand what the front triangle is but as a self made fraud expert jim amino. How do you think that fraud triangle fits. The con artists that you're looking at here in their motives that you describe in your book i would say in this context. There will always be con artists. Okay to me. It's about understanding the conditions. You know what conditions create the opportunity for fraud preparing yourself to spotted exodus pals had red flags or jumped out right away. Their former employers are schools <hes> no you're absolutely right most bad guys in actually almost every bag either commits fraud or theft has that opportunity to commit that fraud but they have to make that decision. There's a there's a place in time where there's at that overwhelming need to that. They need to fulfil which is part of the fraud triangle in somehow somehow somewhere along the way they've rationalize wires okay in this case a career fraudster now. He says the heck with it he damning. That's the name of the game from their. That's their entire. Lila is committing fraud for the rash rationalization for them is is really maintaining that maintain that expensive way of life and that's that's how they really justify justifies so the fraud triangle fits into almost everything. You're talking about jim in this book definitely now the thing is to skip is your professional. This worked in this field. I had never ever heard of the fraud triangle before became suspicious of mister. X what happened was once. I became suspicious of him. I basically underwent a crash course in fraud and i started going to u._n._l._v.'s library special collections. We have a bunch of books by and about connors under locking key if the sign out for the libraries as the fraud trial that's when i start reading frank abergnail books catch me if you can art of the steal <hes> kevin mitnick goes in the wires <hes> david maurer ride the early classic the big con which was the basis for the staining with paul newman robert redford. I started learning about this stuff as way in so basically once i discovered experts probably probably a con artist. I wanted to understand his playbook because i want the boom ryan on him. Notice good once you understand that you can really learn more about that. Person's character even motives is a or how they think which is so interesting when you put those pieces together like you yeah like i made the point in the book if people listening are football fans you know it's it's sort of like the wildcat which took you know ten years or so ago in football was the idea that the you know you have all this motion. The quarterback minds minds episode wide receiver the running back goes in under the center and they do all this smoke and mirrors misdirection and winds up being a runoff is the thing was was once. I learned about the fraud trial. Once i read david moore frank abergnail i basically was in excess playbook and i could start anticipating there. You know what plays he was running and i jumped in his field and blew up you know to take four to two extent. You can almost anticipate the next opportunity. He's looking looking for in this in this. I think the name of the game for them what's the next opportunity that they can executed which is gonna be a plan in execute that plan or that fraud with that without ever been caught. I mean these guys do not wanna call so the plans on to be very elaborate was they executed the plan to help fill those needs or pressures that were probably ah financially based in early rationalized why it's okay to do it definitely. I thought about them a little bit like a. I don't know if you ever thought about this metaphor like i think of them like a chameleon alien report date. Their camouflage is their only protection in day but a chameleon. If you can spot it doesn't have any armor have been teased not poisonous or anything. I like that the only thing the knicks conroy dangerous is if people don't exist once you on artist. It's like the book is one hundred hundred while a lot of these fraud in these con artists fraudsters. I mean they're very gregarious. Very outspoken people want to be around them. They dress nice or will smoke in the they're probably flashing. Some money is in this case what a great scenarios a high roller and they almost body of people. Let her probably potential pray for them. That are really <hes> easy prey for them. I mean they're i mean they are being hunted by the fraudster. Yeah he did a great job. Ah fitting in like for my interviews when he owned a video game company which turned out to be phone in colorado. He drove a mercedes and he was real flashy last year there than in vegas because he was in a clean tech kind of d._c. Space you know he would wear a sport coat with comic book t. shirt and bluejeans blue jeans and berkinstocks you know he had the right work to fit in worm things to <unk> on the book. One of the things that most stood out about ax was that nothing stood out he any identifying tattoos or anything like that jewelry. You never saw the car he came in he he would always just show up in the car. Was you know he added to uber or taxi or a car is parked around the corner or something. You never saw an i._d. Universal license plate late never saw anything like that so he kind of intractable though thing was he changes email frequently soon yeah. That's a red flag. I mean i not i knew emails meals but my old emails they forward. You know like what kind of legitimate business person would make birkenstocks with a two hundred dollar suit as really rent flack insert joke here. Hey suggests there's a fine line that separates you know a legitimate business from fraudulent one you know entrepreneurship governorship and these bag azar just huckster is out there so can you explain a little bit further a web. What is that line. Do you think that is there such a thing. Well i mean it's a gray ray line in so i defer to experts frank abergnail from catch-me-if-you-can great quote from the beginning of chapter eight. If you look at any successful professional a salesperson a marketer a real estate agent a traitor they all have the same qualities as a con man. The only difference is at one side used their talents in the right direction at the non man's taking the easy way out <unk> to summarize that is the difference between a con artist in origin business person they both earn your trust but illegitimate genetic businessperson rewards trust icon ours owners razor trust that is so true why there's a lot of people think bureau in retrospect thinking about some ex friends carello <unk> betrayed their trust at some point on a business deal yeah definitely that's why i made the point of china the evidence before you make a financial decision look into people's linked dan in resume check their former employers schools look for their google reviews those kinds of reform. That's going to reduce your risk of be- getting finding out of doing business is going to be trade and yet if you build it over time is over. Hey hey guys. I hope everyone listened to. Jim was saying he didn't say rely on one. Thing is a collection of information and evidence. Don't rely on just one lincoln page or you know. A background that you found on facebook is a collection of information that all points to the same thing whether it's a truthful and real live human being or someone who's trying to be fictitious hide their identity but it's a collection of evidence. It should make you develop a good business decision before interacting with somebody especially involving a lot of money. Definitely it will say too if you find somebody that you like a new spot. One of these red flies. Give them a chance to explain it. There might be illegitimate explanation. You know i would i would want the evidence to be as on the explanation to be based on evidence but that was the thing with aks in his pals. I would ask them questions. They wouldn't answer. I kept asking they start sending seemed uh-huh desists. I guess they i guess they thought that was gonna intimidate me but like i said with the chameleon all did was really got. My exam got my blood boiling right. It made me much more committed to find out what they were doing and be as accurate as possible. I'd gotten stacks of season desists while working on on this book and some of the people who sent them has not worked out very well for the worse things a bad guy could ever do to me. Tell me i can't do something. There's not enough there to investigate ami. That's gonna drive me even harder to dig deeper and deeper for that evidence because my guts telling me that i'm right just like i think is telling you the same thing exactly alike. I think these people tend to be hyper. Rational rational to fall and i remember the story was from from a book or a movie about the mob but has something to do. There was an investigator he was going to talk to a mobster in. I might have been fictionalized but always stuck with me. It was the mobster knew that no rational person would ever try to intimidate him because he was so dangerous and powerful so the investigator the first thing he did when he was going to talk to him miss yet brick and he smashed the guys windshield sat down. Let's talk because he wanted to convince the person from the beginning that he wears until rational. You know to gain an advantage <unk>. I'm saying is with the congress. Mitchell execute so rational was almost like a computer program before we end today so is something in that in that you sue suit fascinating that you wanna share before before we go today sure i'd love to here's a section about halfway through the book and i had just come back from tell him with the the f._b._i. And they basically told me you've got a really good book right here and they told me as you read it intel me everything and it showed a poker hand shoulder the older cards but i come back to my boss faults at the time and i said to wall what was going. This is what wall told me. He said what you wanna you do. Is you want a minimum. Collateral damage advises in terms of fraud victims of damage reputations. Were you won't says as a controlled demolition in las vegas and often transient society. The most famous ritual has taken hold involved blowing things up about growing usefulness often. It's accurate action. Why i recommend all my listeners. There's really check out this book and really dive in deepen really sense impressions dominion. Especially jim about the book is such a fascinating read. I highly recommend so jimmy the any other advice. You'd like to give to any aspiring riders out there. That may be listening right now. I was safe. One follow your passion to to work on your skill set. There's a great book on the the actual practice of writing cold on writing by williams insert z. i. n. s. s. e. r. he he talks about verbs adjectives all that really short end book and then i would say to you know find a platform that works for you so you can build your audience that you've got. The podcast is where i don't mind orients. I have four hundred thirty two thousand whatever <hes> subscribers amazing people all around the world. I'm byung lincoln. It's a great platform for me. I have fewer than one hundred on twitter. If i just stuck on twitter i would have gone nowhere so fine a platform that fits your trying to do the he been. Tory voice podcast looks lot of science. You know i'm i do not being a journalist. I don't like click the. I don't like tragedies. I don't like the violence highlight to write full kind of constructive relying on ground yeah. I'm starting to get together a second book. It's probably going to be an air theology of you. Know have published several hundred articles. A lot of it has to do with the media. Go chambers and trying to get out of the old left bright going on now is going to become asia. Some some metro is published work and some new work number. Please tell us our listeners can go by or download you knew where he be contact you for more help and advice so cleantech con artists true vegas caper just came out on amazon paperback in eagle. You can reach me. You can find a lincoln. My name's anjem brasi r. O. s. s. i. E. can also writes my website. Clean tack comes with becoming self-named products for a brick drake drake conversation today jim. I can't thank you for your time in the details about your fascinating books or thank you so much. Hey thanks you. I want to make sure that you all know all the gyms contact information listed in the podcast notes website links damn other information that you can use to contact champ for more advice and just contact him for general questions. I know jim be happy to help and always guys hey at least subscribe to like myrna bad guys day radio and the like tunes you to spotify and all those other download services on really efficient. You're supporting morning theme back pain in stay tuned for another episode of rooney. Bag is a radio. Thanks guys. Thanks for listening to ruin a bad guys day radio podcasts with skip myers. If you liked our show these tell your friends then colleagues you can learn more about us and ruin bad guys day dot com or visit us on twitter and facebook at ruin bad guys day join us for another episode. Uh of ruin a bad guys day radio podcast the information provided and ruin a bad guys day. Radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not considered legal or financial advice. You should consult with legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

fraud Jim rossi las vegas vegas writer new jersey congress sabrina graduate student myers investigator dave buco zieger colorado Kid jimmy
Fighting Covid Fraud

Skullduggery

31:06 min | 1 year ago

Fighting Covid Fraud

"A Michael isikoff changed correspondent for Yahoo News. And I'm Dan Kleinman editor in chief of Yahoo News and a quick reminder that you can follow us at skulduggery pod and by the way. If you've got any questions thoughts ideas you wanNA share tweet right out us now. Let's get on with the show. As the corona virus death toll continues to mount so too does evidence that unscrupulous actors are peddling fake cures and pitching bogus business opportunities to an anxious public one. Us Government Agency. The Federal Trade Commission is aggressively investigating these claims sending out a blizzard of warnings to companies that are promoting them and threatening legal action to shut the firms down. We'll talk to one of the FTC commissioners at the forefront of the corona virus fraud battle. And we'll ask among other questions. To what degree is the problem? Being fueled by dubious claims being made at president. Trump's White House briefings on this episode of skulduggery. Because people have gotta know whether or not their president's. I'm not a crop. I told the American people. I did not trade arms for hostile to my heart and my best intentions. Still tell me. That's true but the facts and the evidence. Tell me it is not. I did not have sexual relations with that one. There will be no lies. We will honor the American people with the Truth and nothing else. I'm Mike Gaba chief. Investigative correspondent for Yahoo News. And I'm Dan Kleinman editor in chief of Yahoo News. You know. I've been looking forward to doing this. Interview with Noah Phillips the FTC Commissioner. Who's been going after? The fraud claims if for no other reason that Phillips is a trump appointee. He's worked for Senator John cornyn on Capitol Hill before becoming FTC. Commissioner and I would think that anybody aggressively investigating. These fake cures would have quite a few problems with some of what we've been hearing from. President trump at the White House briefings. Yeah I mean it'll be interesting to see how he handles those questions whether he tiptoes around them or not because seems to me that when you have a president that is up there. On a regular basis kind of pitching questionable treatments to the American people hydrochloric for one. But more recently. You know the idea that you can inject yourself with disinfectant as a potential treatment or the UV. Rays are going to kill the virus that that sort of gives permission to a lot of other people to do the same thing. So that's GONNA be interesting. I will point out however that may no longer be a platform for the the doctor in chief president trump because he got so much criticism for some of those comments that he is now for the last three days not held them when he has been doing them for weeks now every single day without missing a day. Yeah well I'm sure that there's a The proportion of the American public that feels deprived From they're not getting the president's advice to inject disinfect or find some way to get ultra violet light into their body but look. This is a serious issue. It's a real issue. Let's set trump aside for the moment pandemics crises like this. Bring out the best in people as we've seen from the healthcare workers and first responders who are doing everything they can to keep people safe but they also bring out the worst in folks people who try to make money off the Gullibility of the American public and it's important to shine the light on that absolutely absolutely bottom theaters. I mean it is depressing but before we move on speaking of shining the light. I did want to make one one other point about the president's which is this week marks the return of one of his. I think kind of most disgusting tweets that he sometimes does which is calling US and other reporters out there the enemy of the people. He tweeted today on Monday. When we're recording this fake news enemy of the people and I just wanted to point out one other story that may have been missed by some of our listeners which is a couple of days ago the White House. Communications team tried to pressure a CNN. Reporter named Kaitlan Collins who was irregular in the briefing room to move to the back of the room. The broadcast reporters are always in the in the front and she said no the person who seat she was supposed to exchange with who was in the back refuse to move also. They said well. We'll get the secret service to make this happen. Which in the end they didn't do but it was kind of menacing and threatening and to me. I don't know there was something even more distasteful about that kind of conduct inside the White House than these tweets that the president signs off on a regular basis. So I hope that's not a kind of a turning point in the way this White House treats the press. Yeah now I should point out that as you were speaking. The president just tweeted that he is going to have a briefing today at five thirty so the American public will not be deprived of The president's latest medical advice about what to do about the pandemic well? That is interesting by the way because they put out officially the communications director officially put out the word earlier. Today there was going to be no briefing so trump who sometimes has a hard time staying away from the spotlight and staying off. The stage clearly decided that he was going to get back up on there. I hope you're not suggesting. They can't get their act together. That would be a serious charge against this White House. But before we go to commissioner Phillips you were mentioning. The president's Incessant tweets fake news enemy of the people about us in the media. There's actually one that caught my attention from today even better because he used the phrase in this is in one of his tweets. He says that there's never been in the history of our country and more vicious or hostile. Lame stream media than there is right now even in the midst of a national emergency comma the invisible enemy exclamation point so You know we've heard enemy of the people I hadn't heard us being called the invisible enemy. Wait isn't he. Is he referring to the press? Whereas you referring to the virus. Well it sounds a little talking about the lame stream media our president. Who knows by the I think last thing we should say here? Are you tweeting about this kind of hilariously over the weekend? Which is what he went off about the press and their Nobel prizes. Yeah the Noble Prizes Miss Nelson. That gotten their quote noble and Obi L. E. Prizes to return them and I've never gotten a noble noble prize. I've never gotten a Nobel prize either. Of course there aren't any for journalism that I'm aware of so. I don't know of any journalist who's got one for journalism. Think you. I think you should be seriously considered for the Nobel Peace Prize Sakaf right for my contribution to World Peace Anyway let's Get on with the serious business at hand and bring in Commissioner Phillips We now have with us. No Phillips a commissioner of the Federal Trade Commission Commissioner. Welcome to skulduggery and Mike. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor to be here with each of you so on Friday. The FTC warned ten companies to stop making health claims about treating and preventing the corona virus or pitching business opportunities amid the pandemic. Tell us about what you found there and what it may tell us. More broadly about what's going on in terms of people trying to use the corona virus pandemic for profit. Thanks for the question and let me right off the bat. Give the caveat that someone in my position always has to. And that is what I'm saying is my view and not necessarily the views of the commission or my fellow commissioners. Well we did on. Friday is just the latest step in our stepped up efforts to protect the American public from fraud. We sent a number of warning letters to MLM's that is multilevel marketers. Letting them know that they might be violating the law. Some of the claims that they're making and the kinds of claim that issue here relate both to cures or treatments to corona virus that the products that they were selling would help American consumers get better. Or what have you protect themselves against? Corona virus where there might not be any substantiation very likely isn't any substantiation for those claims and also claims about the kinds of money that consumers could make by participating in those businesses. That's kind of claim that we often police in the context of multi-level marketers. And what this tells us about what we are seeing right now and what? We are likely to see. Continue going forward. Is that companies that make bogus claims whether they be health claims or whether they be job. Opportunity claims many other kinds of claims or pivoting to the corona virus and they're sometimes stepping up their game in pushing out these scams and frauds to the American public in American public that is increasingly nervous. They're nervous about the impact of Corona virus in terms of their health. They're nervous in terms of economic trends. That we're seeing. I think last. I read approximately twenty million Americans newly out of work. I time period like this and circumstances like these which thank God or rare. Make a lot of people really concerned not open opportunity for people to take advantage them in a way. That's a legal. So this isn't the round of letters that you've sent we sent a number But it's our hope that we can buy warning some of these companies about scams that they may be perpetrating. Get the scams to stop Faye people money. And maybe even protect them from putting their health at risk commissioner Tell us a little bit about the scope of this problem right now because I think it's fairly common when there are disasters that scam artists come out and take advantage of unsuspecting people. But I get the sense that this is a kind of scope that in some ways we haven't seen before. How does the the number of complaints for example at the FCC compare now to previous episodes? You're absolutely right that whenever there is a disaster you will see scams follow that disaster shorthand we use for. This is that scams follow the headlines and now there are a lot of headlines but we have seen since the beginning of the year in terms of Corona virus related claims is pretty close to thirty thousand reports of scams and frauds reporting losses in excess of twenty million dollars and those are just the reports that come to the FTC that in terms of we've seen in the past this is by multiples larger than the kinds of scams. We normally see and they run across the board so there are as I said before. Health claims there are business. Opportunity claims one thing that we're very concerned about that. We're seeing a lot of right. Now is people and companies basing scams off of the relief that a lot of American businesses and consumers are expecting to get from the government so we went into court just a few days ago against the company in Rhode Island that claimed that it had an authorization from the small business administration to make alone through the program that everybody knows about the cares and we expect to see and we have seen a lot of reports of people hearing from the government or entities purporting to be the government who really just want to take advantage of them. And that's A. That's a troubling thing. Commissioner of course. One of the controversies in the wake of the pandemic is president. Trump's promotion of hydrochloric choline which the FDA has warned against as a possible treatment for the virus. Have you seen instances where companies are promoting that anti malarial drug for Kovin nineteen? And if so are you taking action against it? And thirdly have you had any communications with the White House telling the president to cut it out we have seen companies out there making claims that their product in conjunction with either chloroquine or dot hydroxy chloroquine. Respect that will benefit people in light of corona virus. Whatever those affect their training the broader point here is really important is that people should go to official sources whether it is the food and Drug Administration for health claims or the Internal Revenue Service. If you get a call telling you that in order to get your tears stimulus check. You need to give your credit card number or social security number. Go to these official sources people can go to. Sec Dot Gov to get information that is credible the government is not going to call you and ask for your information across the board. What we see. Is that any kind of announcement that people see whether it's from officials or others can be used as a basis for people who are dishonest to try to scam other Americans. And that's something. We're really concerned about commissioner. Let me just let me just follow up on that. Because this is not really about scamming necessarily but doesn't it make it harder to make that argument when you have a president of the United States musing publicly about whether you can inject disinfectants to treat cove? Nineteen or that you know? Uv Rays will kill the virus. I mean if the head of the federal government can peddle fake science and that was to encourage others wouldn't it? I can't speak to whether you know what any given person comments made whether that has generated some additional level of scam. What we're looking at him. Oh we're working on every day. Not just as an agency alone but with partners elsewhere in the central government like the FCC the FDA is to make sure that the people the companies who are out there trying to flee people of their money to push fake chores on them that they are aware of the fact that they may be violating the law. And we're doing our best with the letters. We talked about earlier and many other efforts to try to shut down those claims as quickly as possible but just to follow up on my initial question. You've undoubtedly heard the comments from the official White House briefing in which hydrochloric Clarkin has been promoted. Which as well as disinfectant injecting disinfectants. When you hear that do you does the FTC reach out to somebody at the White House and tell them these are invalid claims and they are promoting potential scans and they should not be promoted from a official. White House briefing. We're an independent agency and so the work that we do is not done in conjunction with the White House are line has been and will continue to be that when it comes to evaluating a health claim when it comes to evaluating whether someone is in sacked government trying to reach out to you the best thing people can do is go to the official sources you know whether it's FDA dot Gov or irs dot Gov or SEC dot. You don't consider the White House and officials source. I'm the White House's official source and with respect to what they say I'll leave you guys to take it up with them. I'm sure they do have resources for the public on. Whitehouse Dot Gov but in terms of you know done something. Help you with your medical condition. That's a great question for your Doctor. Or the official channels of Medical Information Commissioner given the volume of complaints and scams that are out there and it sounds like the complaints only represent the tip of the iceberg. Do you all have the resources to to deal with this? I mean people are being solicited on social media. You've got the dark web obviously robocalls. They're even stories about people just knocking on people's doors to sell fraudulent test kits for example. How do you keep up with it? It must be like drinking water from a fire hose show. There are a lot of scams out there and I wish we could stop all of them. I wish we could stop all of them before they start What we do in order to be as efficient as we can to stop as many scams as we can as I work as well as we can with our partners at the federal level. Talk about that second. We work with partners at the state level To try to shut down these claims and so the letters you saw on Friday from us we sent letters jointly reset that number with the FDA to try to ward companies off of making bogus claims with respect to tests and cures. And the like we. Were you mentioned robocalls with the FCC to split voice over the Internet providers on notice that they may be facilitating Kohl's and that legal liability may attach at the FCC they permit telecom companies from shutting down those lanes of telecommunication. I'm actually pleased to note that we've seen a decline in robocalls. Some of that without a doubt is because it's harder for people to gather at call centers in India Belarus for the like some of it began before And we do think are stepped up enforcement on that has had an important effect. We're working with every partner we consigned and second. We're hoping that consumers also shop for spots some of the bad things that we see and also help to report them. I was GONNA say anything you can do to cut down on. Robo calls will be Congratulate you'll get congratulations from millions of Americans including myself but on your warning letters. Have you specifically sent any to companies promoting hydrochloric queen? I'd have to go back and check each letter. I'm fairly certain we have sent letters. To companies that are promoting the efficacy of their product with hydrochloric or it might have been chloroquine. I'm not sure cams. We see that are tied to corona virus and fears about infection by Kovic. Nineteen runs again. Right there are all sorts of claims And all sorts of products. That people are Hockey. That they were hawking three months ago but now our hockey has chores. Instead of yeah. I'm looking at one of your warning letters or quote from one of your warning letters to accompany Vida Health and wellness company. Which sent out a letter wanted to join me and drinking zeal to combat the corona virus. Contact me to learn how to be your own Corona Virus Superhero exclamation point. Yes so this is really kind of scary stuff. It's not only scary stuff because we worry as we always do in consumer protection that people will be spending money getting nothing for it but it's scary that people may have the confidence that they are treating themselves right that they forgo needed treatments or communications with their doctors on what we're doing with these letters on and if companies don't comply the letters just the first stage but we're letting these companies know that they may be violating the law and the good thing is most companies stopped when they get the letters unfortunately not everybody does. And it's at that point where other measures like litigation become appropriate. Let me ask you a personal question because it must be enormously depressing at a time like this when you know you'll have almost a million cases of Kobe. Nineteen in this country. Going on sixty thousand deaths people are living in fear. Our way of life has has changed this enormous sense of insecurity involved in vulnerability and yet huge numbers of people are coming out to prey on on these people at a time when we all should be coming together so in processing these cases and seeing the all of the incoming. Is there any one? Particular kind of scam. That really has a troubled. You and kind of depressed you. That's a great question I think I would i. Would I would identify to let let me begin by just echoing? The sentiment that you know as the pandemic is horrible as the economic effects of the pandemic have been one of the silver linings on very dark cloud is the level of social cohesion. Right I mean people really as a society are coming. And they're pitching in and they're sacrificing for the greater good and that's wonderful but yet there's this other part of it where these scammers come out. I think the two they hit me the hardest just personally. Is the people who prey on medical concerns right because again not only are they threatening people with the loss of money but people may in a way that is totally unjustified neglect treatment or assume they have immunity or something like that which can be really dangerous and then the other thing is the government scams people right now are many millions of Americans and tens thousands of small businesses are waiting for the government to help bail them out of the situation. They didn't create and the notion that people are intervening to try to take advantage of. That is just. I mean. That's really sad to me. Can you tell us about a couple of these very specific medical frauds? That we're seeing a lot of one of them is colloidal silver which all sorts of people have been hawking that online and and then. I saw a reference to also something called Miracle Mineral Solution or ns which is apparently causes all sorts of severe side effects. Tell us about those. Yeah and let me just add to your list right? Essential oils is a freelance. You'll hear to the people hawking these product that's not a new thing and there are some people who really like a lot of these products who experienced dentist. It's from them or enjoy being involved in the communities where these products talked about and sold what you see right now is the same product with new claims so being added to all of the claims that might have been made re months ago about. Let's say curing cancer which by the way if it doesn't happen basis is also illegal. Now you're seeing claims about the effect these products can have on keeping away corona virus. Or maybe helping deal with the symptoms of Corona virus. The products are new. People have been talking about colloidal silver for decades and the same thing with essential. Oils that you go into any kind of not. Any many different stores even drugstores. You'll see lots of these products and there are a lot of claims. Bogus claims that are made about these products all the time. That's something we've seen since the beginning of my tender but again for decades before that what's different now is two things they're making. These corona virus claims and noted Americans are on ish nervous and to some extent. I fear their more susceptible to these kinds of claims. As you mentioned They have to see is an independent agency but how closely do you work with the FDA to determine whether a product being promoted is in fact a scam and the Justice Department which has its own task force to Root Out Corona fraud? She'll working with all of our partners including a including FDA including the as I mentioned before with those robocall related letters that went out. This kind of crisis is an all hands on deck situation for public health situation all handled on decks for the people who have to deal with that the economic consequences or part of the world the scams and frauds is also a part where we're working with other agencies so with FDA we're trying to ward people off of making bogus claims with FCC we're trying to deal with robocalls and West Justice helping to deal with the criminal side of blogs which is a really important side of this. What about cyber fraud? Because I I think I've read that people will get emails from email addresses purporting to be the. Who or the CDC? But you click on the link and it turns out it's efficient campaign or or they're planting now wear how big a problem is that. It's a big problem. I mean speaking literally only for myself. I think I've gotten maybe five or six now wear related texts in the last two days. That's not normal. Oh Yeah And we'll you're being targeted. No doubt that that doesn't unfortunately whether it's Robo calls although those are thankfully going down but there it's robocalls or spearfishing which is what we call that no American is immune to this sort of thing And that's a really scary thing. I think the thing for your listeners. To know is that the the first of all they should be wary of emails. That come from what purports to be government sources. They should also be wary of emails. That seem odd that come from people they know so. Let me give examples two examples in particular. If you get an email from your boss asks you to Click on a link or buy them a gift card or an email from a leader of your church or synagogue or Moscow at have you that also asks you to do something that person doesn't normally do especially if include some sort of hyperlink. That's probably scam. Someone has probably compromised something that allows them to send an email that appears to be from someone. You know wintrust so yeah. That's absolutely something we're concerned about. It's also again this environment. We live in. Uncertainty and concern provides an opportunity where especially a lot of people in America are doing things online. They weren't doing three months ago. They were living life online in a way that we haven't and NAT opens up an opportunity for people to report to be a trusted person to introduce malware into a system. That kind of thing you know it strikes me that we're also living alone in ways that we never did before you know. People are isolated. They're not interacting with other people. Nearly as much and so information isn't being exchanged and I wonder at that makes people more vulnerable because typically you hear from other people. Hey you know if you get such and such a kind of solicitation or link it's fraudulent you know. Don't go for it. Yeah that very well be. It's certainly something about which I'm concerned. Well Commissioner this is fascinating stuff can we expect to be seeing more letters from the FTC and even possible cases that you bring against companies? Yes I wish I could say our job is done. But that's certainly not the case I think there could very well be more letters. You should expect to see more litigation as I mentioned when companies continue to violate the law after having been warned at the time when we file a case I think the important takeaway here is. We are continuing very carefully and working with every partner we can find a federal or state level. Try to find these claims these scams and fraud and to stop them as quickly and efficiently as possible. Well Commissioner I wanNA thank you for taking the time. I think you're engaged in endeavor that no doubt would have near universal support from the American public. Nobody wants to be taken advantage of with these scams. So I gotta say that's a rare thing for a government agency these days. So you're you're sitting in a in a pretty good spot there. And we appreciate your vigilance. Well thank you guys and I really appreciate the opportunity to be here with you and to talk to your listeners. It's no secret that our world has been interrupted. World interrupted is a daily podcast telling stories of coronavirus and its impact on the economy. We want to cover the issues in the macro global economics the stock market and our political climate also cover the micro stories. Maybe the ones you don't hear much about in the news or the media. We hope you'll listen and be a part of the journey subscribed today on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks to FTC. Commissioner Phillips for joining us on skulduggery. Don't forget to subscribe to skullduggery on Apple. Podcast or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And tell us what you think. Leave a review. The latest episode is also on Sirius. Xm On the weekend. Check it out on police channel. One twenty four on Saturdays at three PM Eastern time with replays on Sundays at one. Am and three PM. Short a follow us on social media at skulduggery pot. We'll talk to you soon.

president White House Commissioner Federal Trade Commission fraud Commissioner Phillips partner FCC FDA Trump official Us Government Agency Yahoo US Mike Gaba robocalls Michael isikoff Nobel prize Senator John cornyn chloroquine
How to be Smart in a World of Stupid Criminals: Interview with Matt Christensen at FraudNotFrog.com

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

40:23 min | 2 years ago

How to be Smart in a World of Stupid Criminals: Interview with Matt Christensen at FraudNotFrog.com

"Welcome to ruin a Bank is day radio podcast with fraud expert. Skip Meyers this is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks. Learn the best front provincial solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team, and how to prosecute criminals. Now, here's your host skip buyers. Hillary one invent you for tuning into ruin the bad guys day radio. Hey, I'm skip Myers. And I'm your host today for guys day radio. Hey, I I wanna start off in. Thank everyone who continues to support the program in especially all of you who keep singing all those great emails in feedback. I really appreciate it pay. We have a great show lined up this weekend. Looking very very special guest that helps you fight crossers who enhanced training and wariness to a better understanding of cybersecurity an internal audit controls. But I as always I have some great news and updates involving very stupid criminals. So this just in from ABC, thirteen KT, arcade, TV and Houston, Texas busted, bumbling burglars. But dial nine one one while robbing a local Houston best buy store. Unbelievable. You can't make this stuff up like three stooges goodness scripted this any better police say they busted these bumbling burglars after they but dialed nine one one while. Robbing local best buy just outside of Houston. The nine one one call came in around three AM from a cell phone, please told the news Pru. But there is nothing, but background noise. When the call came in the police decided the ping the phone all the Paul was actually coming from a local best buy in Sugarland, which is a Houston suburb. Just as the burglar alarm was coming in from that exact same sport that said, you know, sometimes it's just meant to be plus the bad guys. How stupid they yet bring your cell phone to this robbery? Unbelievable, anyways, they somehow but down nine one one according to police, and then the PD put everything together and Termine that these two miss has worth hurrying at the same time. So officers are already in route to that alarm, call when they got the other nine one one call that was, but you know, I can't imagine the look on those bag guys when the cops pulled up in the parking lot is that how do they figure this out not knowing that one of their buddies, but tunneled nine one one? Unbelievable, so Laden with all the stolen goods that these lead in a stolen pickup truck and led the cops in a forty minute. High speed chase with speeds reaching over one hundred twenty miles an hour of the news crew search reveal laptops and other like Tron IX stashed in the trunk that said to three men picked up nearby location the truck when Bagai bailed, and he is still being hunted by police we love super Bagai stores here at ran bag is day radio. Everyday when we worked together and collaborate and partner we can really ruin a bag guys days, especially when they help us. Nine one. So, hey, as promised the bad guys day radio will be featuring some of the top broad fighters in the industry in two thousand nineteen and today, and this week is no exception. So today, I'm especially excited to introduce to you Matt Grisham match with audit. Lock consultancy and frog not fraud dot com. Mattis transforming the anti clock CPO continuing education and professional development for fraud fighters. So hey, Matt how you doing? I'm so glad you could join us today. How you doing skip just? Your whole story about but dialing the whole time. Like, I'm on. I hope I'm not laughing too hard. I was hoping to we're laughing. I was laughing with is hard to control that I read that story like six times preparing for this. And I'm trying to magin the whole thing. I don't know you gotta take your phone to you know, this big crime masterminded. I don't know what do you Instagram in your friends when when you're doing this scrum, and you can't make it up by lot skip. Thanks so much for having me, man. I'm excited honor to be here. I'm honored to. I it's, you know, we built a relationship or the last several months, and we both share a lot of the same ideas and passion for building awareness in creating that higher education level for all those great fraud fighters fraud practitioners out there always trying to get a little bit of a leg up on the bad guys. And you know, one thing I was a, you know, pre podcast review. I just have to ask how did you come up with the name for your company, especially fraud? Not frog dot com. I just love that. That's awesome. You know, it goes back over a decade ago. When I when I first started telling people that I was a fraud investing. Later. I would have a series of conversations. I thought I was doing a great job selling what I was doing. Usually it was against it was strangers or people sit next to me on a plane and go into this elaborate discussion of how I prevent detect fraud. And finally, they look at me with this puzzled face like, okay, I understand preventive how many frogs are their in business's that you go into. And so it just became one of those things remind okay, it's it is fraud, not frog. So that was kind of the main thing that's the tagline for the website lers prevent- prevent detect fraud, not frogs. So you're not into fibia NHS as others would think. You know, herpetology never was a strength of mine. So no, that's awesome. Pay. So you got an extensive background in a lot of great content credentials. Can can you tell our listeners a little bit more about your background, and how you got in this business. Yeah. Happy to you know, what I don't claim to to know everything there is about. But but I have had I've been fortunate to have a lot of good experiences. It all started with trying to break into the industry. I I literally applied for over fifty jobs, and I could not get in everyone required experience to get experience. And I just couldn't get in. And so finally found a company that was willing to take me on as a cyber security consultant, which I thought was a little ironic because I had no experience, but that was the titles junior cyber security consultant in amazing company that gave me amazing opportunities to travel world in in find and actually build a fraud program. So I was able to do that. We we did it for Larr. Fortune companies and then throughout my career of been able to help establish and build and mature other fraud and cyber security programs. This awesome. You talked about some of the first steps she took. But what were some of the things that you think that really got you that first of job to get started, you know, inside or security and Sarah security consulting. So it was one of the situations where I had to go above and beyond. I was competing against, you know, hundreds of other people in my state same time for the few jobs that existed jobs in security, then aren't they didn't flourish. Like they do now back. There's more demand than inventory now today ten twelve years later, so the few that actually happens you you had a fight for and I went to an after hours mentoring event, the things that most college students are like, yeah, I'm not going to that. I listened to this this speech that to be honest to this day was probably the worst pres. Stations. I'd ever been to. But afterwards, I went to the the presenter and just mass. The question can I how can I break into the industry? Do you know of any opportunities? And while he didn't give the most stellar presentation. He was connected, and he's like, oh, I know of an internship. Let me send you over to that. Gimme your resume in literally within three weeks. I had a job. So after trying to do what everyone else had done apply. Apply. Not even get an interview just reject letter after reject letter took me getting out of my shell. And just you know, approaching someone and just saying this is what I'm looking for do, you know of an opportunity and literally within three weeks. I had the job John. I think that's always the difference maker. I mean, it's resumes. Get lost in the crowd yet to show people that you're unique, you know, the Matt has a different look on a different perspective of looking at things from not always traditional perspective in when you do that you set yourself apart from everybody else's, you know, doing this job like they just read it out of a book. Yeah. Even skip even right after I got the job. I quickly realized on this. You know, I think there were seven or eight of us on that team that supported in over one hundred thousand employees. I I realized quick I've got a differentiate myself or I'm going to die. I mean, I I literally the best thing I could do is bring them coffee and Rama noodles. And so I said how can I how can I ask a skill? Set are grow a skill set that can make me valuable to this company to where they're gonna wanna keep me and move it from an internship to full time gig, which is exactly what happened after just a few months. And so yeah, I took the initiative to find something that what I believe didn't exist at the time by the skill set. And that's where I researched this certification called a certified fraud examiner. And you know, I scrolled through it. I'm like, man. This is exactly what I wanted to do. I don't know if you knew this, but I actually wanted to law enforcement and go into federal in just my life. Didn't take down course, which I'm super grateful things wouldn't have turned out the way they did how to gone that route. But I always wanted to be kind of that investigative space. So I found this this designation called certified fraud examiners ACF, E dot com. And just said, this is exactly what I need personally. But more than that what this company needs to help further. A mature their cyber program. So I took it to our to my boss chief information security officer at the time. I said, hey, what do you think about this? And you know, he took a chance on me. And I'm grateful to that to this day took a chance on me realize that we could use that to further the business, and we actually build a process that landed us multi multi million dollar contracts, a really really cool thing. So awesome. Hey, hey, everyone thinks for tuning if you're just now tuning in. We're speaking with Matt Khorasan with audit law consultancy and frog not fraud dot com. And right now, if you're just tuning in, we're really diving deep until Hal mad is really transforming anti-fraud CP's or continuing education and professional development for fraud fighters in it's so important, and this is a great conversation. Because a lot of us in his interesting so often we get caught up in just focusing on investigations in the fraud losses and really bad guys. But really staying ahead of the bad guys really comes from continual edge. Education. I mean, really building those skills the fight the bad guy. So what what do you really think? How can we leverage? Some existing skill sets for those who are really looking to break into this anti-fraud industry. What's some of the things you think are most important? I appreciate that question. It is tough industry break into. But it's an even tougher industry to stay competitive. So it's not one. And that's why love it so much. It's so dynamic. It's so fluid. You can't just rest on prior experience. You always have to be getting better. What you do investigators that have thirty and forty years experience men, they have a ton of Allieu. But where what I'm seeing is. They're lacking in how fraud is committed now today in how it will be committed in the future. And so that's one of my main missions is helping people get quality education. It's modern it's relevant. That's not the boring side deck that everyone just wants to dilate and two points bullet points. It's like give me the deck. I can read the deck. But yes, what I can't read his experience. So I focus on finding people who are passionate about sharing their experience. You know, the truth is health was committed thirty and forty years ago doesn't fairy too much now it's the same frauds happening. They're just doing it a different way. And so you have to detect it a different way. So man, anyone that I can talk to that Scott thirty forty years experience, even twenty I gravitate to them and try and pull from them their experience, and and then get them to share it in a way that perhaps his different than they've done before. Like, I said not through a PowerPoint, but through a live video presentation or through an online training that that is interactive through a group forums through Facebook groups, just the ability in live sessions, of course. But just to get them in front of other investigators other people who are trying to sharpen their craft. It's been an absolute. Mine. I think the other question you asked is how how do you break into this industry? How to us how to use your existing skill sets? So I'm a huge believer. You don't have to come from military or law enforcement to be a fraud examiner. Now, if you have that you do have an upper edge in some ways, but I've talked to people who have been fast food workers construction workers in oceanographer. I talked to someone who's an ocean honor for the becoming. Yeah. A fraud examiner big dive deep into fraud. Man. Can't you can't plan? This. No. But it's it's true there in every industry of every every company of every size. You're going to find people who will still from you. And that's the message that I that. I'm here to advocate that I'm partnering with amazing people peers and colleagues like you is that if we just talk about it, we can grow that expansion. We can let people know and this could happen in my business. You know, just a week or two guys talking with a company doing some consulting work. They small firm that never heard of the term business Email compromise. Now, I know your listeners or smart, they know what BTC is. But we talk through it. We found exactly what had happened. They had Email compromise that another Email set up as an auto forward and the bad guy took took advantage of that learned exactly when payroll Wednesday was and right before payroll Wednesday said, hey, boss, I need you to change the account number route all the payroll of this number eight thousand dollars later, they down that's all. So that's just one of things. You're right though. I am passionate about. Not taking the standard training approach to get continue education. It should be fun. You're, you know, you're absolutely right now, I was really listening hard at what you're saying about, you know, people that have former law enforcement experience me included. But you know, you're I've been in this line of work for a long time. If you don't stay current, if you don't eve, all of your mindset in really get ahead of the bad guys who education and training going to conferences networking in partnering and breaking down silos and trying to learn as much as you can you're you're gonna be left behind, you know, and the other point you have which I really really like is that you don't have to be a former investigator law enforcement military, whatever to to really do this work. And now we're talking about situational skills and critical thinking and really being able to understand suspicious transactions of its online and really having that mindset to identify trends in commonalities in how they integrate or subjugate your operational processes that are causing the law. So it's a rounded mindset and background. To do this job you do and you know beyond not being complacent and beyond always wind to grow. And learn you do have to have that mindset of really wanting to dig in. There's been very little fraud that I've found or I've ever detected by just getting lucky. I mean, it does happen to it. I'm sure over your career. There have been those cases like the one that you mentioned the gecko like law enforcement got real lucky that the. Yeah. Yeah. They decided to but dial and give their exact triangulating position of where they are. It does happen. But my experience it's few and far between you really have to be willing to ask why right dig into into not form your own theory and just go for it. But really be objective independent in in that thinking, so that, you know, you don't just become bias. And here's exactly what happened. And usually when that happens you end up being wrong. That's exactly right. The in. I'm still old school taught by some of my mentors long ago. But the easy way out is is follow the obvious evidence. Follow the obvious Bagai who committed this particular crime. That's the easy way out the Hardaway and sometimes in the in more rewarding way is you just follow the trail of evidence. Illit take you no matter where it takes you. And sometimes it takes you directions, as you know to places you never been before. So that suspect you thought of at I was your target is not even close 'cause you. Did the honest thing by following the the evidence Illit take you wherever it may go. Yeah. You know, there was a number years ago. I was overseas doing an investigation. We thought technically we could prove how what was occurring was occurring. And this was a big fraud. Definitely in the millions. And the fact is the technology couldn't prove it. But it came down to honing in on the right people to ask the right questions to add something that should have been way early on just got skipped and put too much emphasis. We put too much emphasis on letting technology. Prove how happened talk about going old school man, we we pulled out a conference room. And we started interviewing it was the interviewing that we then Raval to find who was actually allegedly, but then proven to have committed the fraud. And so yeah, you like I love what you're saying. You have to really just chase it and follow it. And that's my experience that's been the where you get the best results. Yes. Far as I know. There is not a fraud solution in a box a cyber security package that that can sit down with suspects or even internal employees to really get down to the root. Cause of a problem that again, that's all day data driven in still based on human interaction to analyze data. But the real the real meat of investigation really starts like this. What you said sitting down in talking to people I love that. So so let's go a little bit more. So we know that cyber security controls in internal audit controls are not mutually exclusive in rather they do support each other. But a lot of times we treat these two lines of businesses separately when they do come together. And while how much more powerful could it be? If we converge those two mindsets together break down the silos and increase collaboration. The wonderful to see what really could be possible if Morgan's Asians did that he and again, something skip I'm super passionate about through my career in through consulting. Being been able to work with very large organizations, and one of the more obvious things that I've seen is the like you said the silos that occur the stovepipes that occur where independent apartments can find a subset of their own fraud. But they have not utilizing the same tools are ignoring other fraud that that's committed. So, you know, in cyber security organizations really be really good at preventing and detecting hackers or or external threats internal audit may work with other business units or lines of business that are good at finding timekeeping or things like that. But rare is it that I've seen more in consulting than any prior employer. But rare is that I've seen these departments collaborate to join forces to say, here's technologies we have let's work together. Let's partner together. You know? The fact is I think while cybercrime is a huge threat to most large organizations the insider. Threats malicious and accidents are probably greater and more common. And maybe don't equate to the same amount that a data breach would in terms of dollars impact. But frequency insider threats by far are more common. You have thousands of employees. You will have a subset of them. That will still from you. I say if you have humans you have fraud, and so if you can work together and get leadership to support saying, okay, we're not going to go out there and campaign that all our all our employees are bad people and dishonest are gonna still from us. But if they just accept that. There will be a small subset, regardless of the background checks, regardless of the internal controls that will take advantages of situations and Walton at least still you can get these. It's usually the department heads that struggle with nuts my territory, or we just don't get into that. That's this other departments responsibility. But if you can get together, and and this is what I've done in. Prioritization, and build a responsibility charter race. See that says, here's here's who's responsible. Here's who's accountable. Here's who needs to stay informed. If you can build that chart, then you line up all the different departments. That are involved. You're gonna have IT you're gonna have internal audit. You're gonna have legal. They're they're absolutely will have to be HR. There might be sub departments as well that are responsible for all playing a part in in that internal fraud pro- program. And so that's that's one thing that I advocate in any way. I'm always looking for organizations that have done that to learn from see how they've been successful and see where they may be do better. You're absolutely right bringing all those departments together sometimes one room with you know, a lot of us and others sometimes zone, always realized, you know, people from those other departments, you know, we we have complementary skill sets. And we don't even realize it, you know, this. There's other people out there that have critical thinking, skills and situational skills. Heck them even have investigative skills. And that ability to connect the dots. And. Advocates are really see the bigger picture for the company or your organization, and they really wanna get out of their own silo and work with people just like you. So unless you go talk to them, you don't know that they actually exists or actually they have the mindset to actually be a part of that fraud prevention team. And that's how you bell Bill value for yourself in your department. I believe for the whole organization, you know, there's a lot of statistics that say that that organizations lose close to five percent of the revenues to fraud. And I haven't seen that in the organizations that I've been fortunate of working for it's been much much much smaller but say it's only one percent. I mean, even if you have one percent loss in your large company. That's a big deal. Even if you're a small company one percent can be significant that could put you out of business if you don't have enough capital to come up with the loss. And so, yeah, I think it's one of those things that you just you have to be aware of that frauds going to happen. Now. Can we do something about it? What I've seen too often. Skip is especially in smaller businesses. You've got guys that go you. No, I've never had that happen to me. I've had the same staff for fifteen years. No way would it ever happened. And it could be right. They could go their whole career, but their peer or, you know, a partner or someone else that they know it's going to happen to them. And that is the number one thing that I hear people say is I never once in a million years thought this could have happened in my business Zacklin, so regardless of your size. You've got to as a business owner as leaders in business. You have to be willing to accept that. There will be people in your company that make bad decisions. Whether they're good people that had good intentions to just got in a bind and made a bad choice or whether they deliberately work their way into your organization to then take advantage of an opportunity and still something from you. I do feel like in more cases than not skip. It's the former it's the person who doesn't have a background criminal background. It's the person who whose kid gets diagnosed with medical treatment. They only they're looking for. Thousand dollars to cover. They wanna pay it back, then generally snowballs from there that seems to be more of what I see than like a malicious insider, but regardless to get back you've gotta get leadership aligned and to agree. And then you have the formalize it. It is not an easy task by any means no was to to get leadership to align and agree and to build policy guidelines for steiger's Esso's u U S O P's set a standard operating procedures you have to get shipped ship to line at the top to say, this is a priority. We're going to deport it. It's gonna take time build and mature. But we're we're committed to an it says a lot to your employee base when you say were committed to this exactly, you know, we say a lot on this radio show that you should be the voice of your own initiative. I mean, if you see something going on, it's your obligation to say something about it or work with those annual organization or even outside your organization to make it better. I mean, if you don't the consequences. This could be severe. And you know, Matt, you're exactly right. Some of the biggest cases I've ever had in my thirty years doing this line of work are usually from those people, you least expect in Iran. There's a mindset out there. Well, it's never happened to me we do criminal backgrounds. No one's stills from us. Or we got all these extra controls and fraud solution providers on our back end, bad guys can't penetrate, our network, you know, that lackadaisical mindset will surely get you in deep trouble in the bag is will always find a way to outsmart you they will. You know, what am I favor it movies? Give is Robert Redford's show, relate eighties sneakers. I don't know when you're familiar with. But that one that one's honestly, I remember I remember I was eight or nine when I saw flip for so many thought that that's my career there in the premises. They get paid to break in two companies to show companies how they would other people would break in right? Find those vulnerabilities that you just mentioned it doesn't matter. How many controls you have their, Geno? Really is another way to break in. So it really does come back to do. You have a workforce that's willing to speak up when they see something that doesn't look, right? Because it's his are. You're going to have someone evade an administrative control a technical control surveillance. You're gonna have people that can get around that. So at the end of the day will in many cases, depend on do. You have a workforce that's willing to say something when when they see something, and that's that's an we do say that a lot in our community. Right. Say something see something. But that's the truth. The key that I think most businesses miss is they implement of fraud hotline and they move on. And they don't get any calls that. And then they get blindsided and say will what will happen. We had a hotline widen widen our employees, call in the differentiator of organizations that get employs the call versus ones that just implemented hotline as a check box is they they instill in the employee ease the trust that. They need to make that call. I've talked to hundreds of whistle blowers. Hundreds of people who have been the first person to to make that call and every time there's a common thread that accommodate or not was I didn't want to. I didn't want to really didn't want to I felt obligated to. And at that point that they felt obligated the only thing that allowed them to make that call was that they felt safe. They felt that that leadership would actually take action on it. And and they removed that fear of am I gonna be able to stay anonymous or not and can I can I speak up without having retaliation. So if leaders can do that if they can implement a way an approach doesn't have to be a hotline, it could be, you know, sending anonymous Email or there's a million ways you can get tips without providing while providing excuse me wall, providing anonymity, and so, yeah, that's that's my biggest thing is leaders. Have to find a way to tell their employee base. We care about what you see we trust you. If you ever seen anything that looks bad or suspicious, or you're just questioning it. Here's how you contact us. If you want to remain anonymous, here's how you do it. They've got up with that trust in people or they're gonna lose every time. Exactly. And that's where this training and awareness and ongoing education is so important because so often you said it just perfectly department implements a fraud hotline who checked off the box. Hey, boss, raw good. Our employees can call if they see something wrong, but never analyze. Hey skip him any calls. We get inlet last month of well, we didn't get any calls. You know, not dive into why aren't you getting in calls that to your point that there's other issues within that organization that are have not created at environment worthy employee's fill like, you know, they can trust the organization to phone in that call or feel like they won't be, you know, sought after as the whistle blower for were, you know, high. Alighting something that's going wrong within the organization. So there's other things in play. But unless you have that training awareness insurance ideas with other departments at fraud hotline will never get a call. Now, if talked to a number of organizations before that has a key a key indicator that I'll ask them is how many calls have you had in the last six months in too often. I hear we haven't had calls in six years. So the other is that awareness factor. You know skip it is a hard. It's a hard thing to do it so easy to say implement a hotline let people know they're save and go back to work that is a hard thing to do that does take training does take expertise, you know, think about a young startup company that's got one hundred hundred fifty employees chances are if they have an HR department. There's one person, and it's probably the CEO it when when you have a situation like that. It's really you can really ruin culture and really encourage distrust among your employee base. If you just throw. Throw out a tip line and say we're gonna catch if you still from us that that's not what it is. So it does take the right approach to to do it the right way. And so does training your employees. And that's one thing that we focus on at fraud out. Frog dot com is how can we provide quality training to to people that will make a difference? Not just give them kinda like checking a box the having a tip line. We don't just provide training checks a box. So you get your c credit? In fact, one of the things that we look for when we do a live webinar, or when we launch an online course or redo a live training is what's the feedback that we're getting our people saying an asking wins your next event. When can we sign up and that gauges Howard doing if we aren't getting that? Then, you know, maybe we aren't giving the best training which before just to be candid. But, but when we get feedback like man, can you bring that person back or can you deep dive and do one step further? Other in your next course, or if we're getting that type of feedback. Now, we know we're we're hitting the Mark. And we're offering some thing that you just can't get elsewhere. Also, great news, you know, met. I know you're so passionate about changing the way we get that CPI training, professional development, training and credit for it. You know, that training should be fun. And as you said before entertaining, and it should know last a long time, it should have an impact. Months in years down the road. You know, what's so hard is really developing a training program that sticks. And I love what you said on your website. You know that there is a better way to traditional training. And that's what you're relentless to change in that you're doing it right now. But what other ways how are you trying to really do this and provide a greater vision on how we're getting training for all these great fraud practitioners out there dead. It's it's a great question. Skip in honestly, that's the maker break for our company. I feel like we can be different in number of ways. I is getting quality speakers people who've quality experience, I'm perfectly comfortable, if the person isn't the best presenter if the contents there, right? I think people care less about is got a monotone voice or he seems dry. If the if the contents good, and it's teaching them how to be a better fraud investigator fraud examiner or internal auditor they're gonna stick around. They're gonna want more. And so I. I do look for engaging people, but also find people who have relevant experience. These aren't theoretical discussions on how fraud could be found. It's real discussions on. How fraud actually was found of another way skip as we focus on prevention. It's so much less expensive. If you can prevent the fraud than having to actually go through the loss investigating it implementing more controls at two than have it happen again. So prevention is one of the key components that we focus on the point. And another way skip is we don't believe in the traditional way of receiving online education. We take it a number of steps further. For example, we offer online courses where people can come and take it at their pace if they're on its train while you're on the train. It's another one of our saying they can be on their mobile phone listening. They view video they can stop. They can pause if they're driving. They can just do audio only they're getting trained while they're going home. That's one of the. Things that I enjoy doing the most as on a commute. I enjoy furthering my knowledge, and so I'll pop on a, you know, a podcast like yours or download some C E or CPI content and listen to that while it drive, you have to cater to how people are wanting to learn today, a number of people comment to us that they'll take trainings while they're at the gym that that wouldn't be my thing. I need a release I need no music or a very specific music to work out too. But for some people that's their release. And so we've made it very mobile friendly. And then at the end of it, you know, we'll issue a quiz or something to certify that they've listened to an provide to them the opportunity to engage interact with the presenter or with us give us out feedback. Let us know what they need more of engage directly with the presenter. So that they can say, hey, I wanna bring you into our company. So it's just that's the perch that were taking we're not just what you see on our website, and it's being developed more more every day. More and more content was being. Ng added. But what you're seeing what you will see is not what you can find out swear. It's it's not expensive seat CP that you just end up multitasking during the entire training. Not removes it CPE, the if you are multitasking you're gonna stop what you're doing. And you're gonna actually engage and watch and listen and take notes and wanna come back time after time to listen to again, though, so important writes, some of the lot of our listeners on Renna bad guys day radio. Tell me all the time. The best time that they like to listen to this podcast is their commute on the way into work there, maximizing every minute of the days of the trying to get a little bit further ahead with some that education enhance from people just like you. But that commute why waste your commute listening to Britney Spears. I mean, listen to mad or run bad guys day radio. I mean for God's sake, great stuff. So unless you well, of course, love people like Britney Spears. If she's listening, this isn't a personal tactic. I'm sure she good fraud fighter somewhere. Hey, matt. Hey, thanks, so much those you've been listening. We've been talking to Matt Christmas in with audit. Locked consultancy and frog not fraud dot com. He's transforming the anti-fraud CPA and continuing education program in personal development for fraud fighters, you know, maddest been great talking fraud with you and training and personal development with you today, you only final thoughts or takeaways for our listeners. I think the takeaways would be if you're listening to this show, you likely already are someone escape anay. You wanted to be better right in the hope is that through this radio show through the podcast through skip is websites. Hopefully, you're able to look at it and say, okay, that's one takeaway. I got now I'm gonna go actually do something about it. So might take away is hopefully, your listeners are able to grab even one thing from the show to then make them better or one thing from the show to make someone else. Better nets the key. That's how we're gonna win against these bad. Guises is collaborating is working together. Not being so holding it to the best right zelf selfishly progressing in your career, while not helping selfishly help others progressing their career. Hopefully, that alone would be it. But you know, this again, this is one of the best industries to be regardless of your background. If you're listening to this while you're driving truck or working fast food or on the construction site or on a ship somewhere, and you really anxious to change your career to go a different path checkout fraud examination find the resources ACF E dot com. You know, skipping. I we don't receive any type of compensation we don't have formal affiliations with things like that look at becoming a PI in your area. Maybe that's your thing. But look at this as an opportunity to say if you're looking for career change where you want to further your career. This is a great space to be in. And. Podcast like skips podcast, mind fraud. Frog you're gonna find lots of people who are willing to share what they know and help you just jump start leapfrog into your you don't have to get ten years of experience before you could land a first client said that that would be my takeaway skip is to encourage your listeners learning continue getting better their craft, and especially helping other people get better as well. Thank you so much take away to listen to today's been pleasure. You know, finding those mentors like yourself or surrounding yourself with like minded thinking people that can help further your career further your knowledge and background. So we can all fight the bad guys at a much higher level. If you don't attend conferences in your industry, cybersecurity fraud preventions, you know, whatever it may be don't get with your boss, or, you know, budget for those cars can recommend enough time that you can go to those conferences and network with people just like met to learn a little bit more about the industry. Find a little bit more about that person. Development and training that it's so important to take your knowledge and ability to mix level to ruin a bad guys day and pet anytime feel free to contact Matt riot anytime for additional advice, so mad. Thanks again. So much for your time in great advice. And hey, everyone will have all of Matt's. Contact information fraud has a tongue twister right at frog. I said this one hundred times. Frog not fraud dot com. What a great site rate information, all kinds of training and other white paper in blog information there for you guys to really develop your knowledge background on how to fight roster. So all this information contact information that has always listen to podcasts notes with links to his website. Matt Bush is on linked in great way to contact them there, and develop, you know, a bigger network with like minded people. So as always everyone, I can't thank you enough. Please subscribe to like renovate guys day radio and half ally tunes YouTube Spotify and other three download services. We really appreciate your feedback and continued support. Hey, thanks again. And stay tuned for another episode from Ruina bad guys day radio. Thank you everyone. Thanks for listening to ruin a bad guys day radio podcast with skip Myers. If you liked our show, these tell your friends and colleagues, you can learn more about us at ruin bed guys date hot com or visit us on Twitter and Facebook at ruin bad guys day. Join us for another episode of Ruina bad guys day radio podcast. The information provided in ruin Abed guys day radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not be considered legal or financial advice. You should consult legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

fraud Matt partner skip Myers Skip Meyers Houston Facebook ABC Britney Spears Texas Matt Grisham Hillary robbery Laden Mattis Tron IX Paul investigator
Do You Have Pink Around the Collar? Kelly Paxton Discusses How Pink Collar Criminals are becoming the New Threat to Your Business.

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

41:00 min | 2 years ago

Do You Have Pink Around the Collar? Kelly Paxton Discusses How Pink Collar Criminals are becoming the New Threat to Your Business.

"Welcome to ruin a bad guys day radio podcast with fraud experts skip buyers this is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best fraud prevention solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team and how to prosecute criminals now. Here's your host skip buyers coming to you from Atlanta Georgia. This is the broadcast it gives you the knowledge in tools to help you ruin a bad guys day before they ruin yours. Hey thanks so much for tuning in to real bad guys day radio PODCASTS. I thank you so much payoffs. Let's get Myers. I'm the host of ruin the bad guys day radio and I want to start off by thanking everyone who continues to support the show and especially those loyal listeners keep sending in all that great good feedback and all those terrific emails. Thank you very much everyone we have a great show lined up this week including a very very special guest in recognized workplace dishonesty tamp date polar crime expert galaxy that again a pink collar crime expert so me a great show votes and Mrs Kelly Paxton who will discuss her research into criminal behavior her investigations into trusted employees that committed fraud against their employers but I as always like to start the show with some good news and bad news and updates involving all being some very stupid criminals. Hey this just in from the HUFFINGTON post suspects wowed release of gas. You heard that loud suspects loud release a gas it helps beliefs sniff out his hiding place well the Liberty Police Department and Missouri said no one was hurt by the blast a man trying to loot police in Missouri ended up being betrayed by his own backside Liberty Police Department officers over the weekend where searching vainly for a man wanted on warrant charging possession of a controlled substance according according to Kansas City Star newspaper however the suspect may have gotten away if it hadn't been betrayed by his own backside will explain further it seems that the man let out a large yet your guess a large flagellants and sound fell far in the south right the wrong time allowed the officers to sniff out where he was hiding according according to local police fortunately for the bad guy the cops have not released his identity at this time so the nearby Clay County Sheriff's Office got wind of the arrests and decided to turn and it into a cautionary tale on twitter presumably to discourage others from engaging in criminal behavior or in this case little humor from the police department at least avoiding beans and other foods or high fiber before committing any illegal activity make this stuff up hey so this is what the sheriff's department said on in posted on twitter. Hey If you have a felony warrant for your arrest and the cops are looking for you in you. Pass gas so loud that gives up. You're hiding spot while you're probably having a crappy day. Ah The liberty place apartment apparently appreciated the tweet nearby and just for the publicity wanted to add some more wisecracks about the loud noise and yes they did let that twitter tweet rip and one response went like this so hey thanks to the local sheriff's Department for airing out a one person's dirty laundry in fanning the flames James the Liberty Police Department was surprised to see this incident oil slip out with stinks for the arrest e in fortunately no one was injured Darren this arrest so guys. You can't make this stuff up another stupid criminal. You probably need to watch his diet so hey got another great story want to talk about and this is a great lead in a little bit more serious. You're stuck on a serious note but this story rate lead into our guest forthcoming here in it's a story comes out of Martha's Vineyard and pay really close attention this because the stories titled Woman An accused of embezzling three million dollars and so some of these funds apparently were allegedly used to purchase a mark the Vineyard House in Massachusetts so here goes the story a woman who allegedly embezzled three Million Dollars From Waltham base employer use some of that money to buy a home in Vineyard Haven Massachusetts near Martha's vineyard. The suspect aspect of in your haven was arrested recently in charge of one count of bank fraud in the U._S.. District Court in Boston according to the affidavit the suspect was an executive assistant to the Chief Financial Officer of Waltham based Technology Company. The company was not named in the court records but looks like the duties of this suspect included retrieving incoming mail containing customer checks made payable to her employer all you in the provincial visits probably for the store before this the seems to be repeated problem with people in positions of trust so this suspect will also record the checks into the payment system of the company in depositing checks into her employers. Here's bank account a press release said by the U._S.. District Attorney so between February two thousand twelve in July two thousand seventeen the suspect allegedly stole funds from your employer in used the funds to buy a car as well as a really nice house in Vineyard Haven Massachusetts in two thousand fifteen she allegedly created a sham company with a similar name of her employer but added an s to the end of the day the affidavit states so the suspect took the checks made them out to to her Sham Company and deposit them in tuna campus. She made up with a local credit union sound familiar. Hey according to the affidavit. The company discovered discrepancies discrepancies during a two thousand seventeen audit that uncovered that a number of the checks despite appearance paid in there billie system could not be reconciled within the company's bank accounts so in total the suspect embezzled approximately get this embezzled approximately three million seventy six thousand dollars from her former employer this suspect in this particular case up there. Martha's vineyard could face up to thirty years in prison and a fine up to one million dollars according to the U._S. Attorney's office hey well. I guess sometimes you know. Crime doesn't pay after after all does it in this particular case sounds like it was so easy or at least the suspect thought it was so easy to commit fraud awed against their employers so hey guys hey. There's some great news and information hope you got a little chuckle out of that. Make sure you watch your fiber in what you eat especially if you're GONNA go out and commit a crime so just this kidding anyway. I thought I heard somebody laughing in the background so anyway hey today guys as promise running back guys day radio BA- featuring some of the top fraud fighters in the industry and industry experts in two thousand nineteen in today. I especially excited to introduce to you. Kelly Paxton Kelly Paxon's with pink collar crime dot Com Kelly's a nationally recognized expert and speaker on pink collar crime. Hey Kelly is one of the good guys she spent an entire career investigating hundreds of cases ranging from from money laundering to conflict of interest to embezzlement schemes so hey Kelly how you doing. I'm so glad you could join us today. I am doing great and I I love your <hes>. <hes> stupid criminal stories had not heard that fiber heavy story that was me you her chuckling in the back back make this stuff up that's right. I searched high and low for those stories. Are you are you doing. I'm doing great three and I'm actually the story the second story this three million dollars over five years just to give it a little bit of context. That's an extra six eight hundred thousand dollars tax free so you're talking a lot of extra money in five years but if I looked at had a chance let's look at it yet. It wasn't one check for three million dollars. It was you know over five years and I would guess in my experience the first your plumbing wasn't quite as much as the last year to probably start at a little bit smaller and it just increased over time so yeah it's a fascinating case and that's great had feedback and advice there Kelly but you know for new listeners here and especially our loyal listeners. I have to ask you know with pink collar crime. How'd you come up with your website named Pink Color Crime Crime Dot Com? That's that's awesome so peak. I did not make the term pink color crime criminologists a lot smarter than me came up with the term earn it was popularized in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine by Dr Kathleen Daly who's actually down in Australia now but emailed her because I was a little sheet saying hey I got <hes> collar crime. Dot Com was delightful had no issue. She actually doesn't do this type of work anymore. I mean she's still pulmonologist at her. Focus has changed in one thousand nine hundred ninety criminal nagazine she did a she wrote an article and it was based on a study and basically pink color crime is lower level. All Employees Think Accounts Receivable Accounts Payable Office Manager who steal petty amounts from the workplace so it's pink because that's kind of an again. This is my turn the pink color ghetto which actually the Wall Street Journal came up with that terms those physicians are primarily filled by women but one something for anyone who checks the out afterwards is I love hashtags and one of my hashtags is it's physician not gender. I am equal opportunity opportunity. If you're a man whose accounts receivable or a peak physicians in new steal your color criminal so it's position not gender. It's just you know over. Ninety percent of those positions are held by women right. We got caught in that trap especially watching the news or television and movies. I mean Takes Care of everything out the day doctors are medical professionals referred to that Office Manager Executive Assistant is the day that McHugh was picking up the mail. She was doing the computer entry she was going to the bank. You can't have one person do all of that. In this goes goes to the whole people think it can't happen to me because my daughter or my sister or my wife does my blocks no fifty percent of all marriages end in divorce so if you're going to count your books on your spouse going in with that statistic and I can show you stories of the children wives you know so he Kelly Kelly we're going to get deep into this folks and everyone thank you for tuning in today and Kelly is such a wealth of knowledge but I think it it would be a disservice if we didn't talk about the the background and the breadth of her entire experience in this business so Kelly. Tell our listeners a little bit about your background how you got in the business. Yeah I know you're a private investigator your see but I think the listeners really like to know about the level experience and knowledge that you have in this business sure so I started off in traditional finding it's <hes> I started my career. At the Chicago Board of Trade. I became a stockbroker and moved back to Portland and we had a client to this was back before know your customer customer so nothing you know He. He just didn't know where his money came from. We have ideas when day a special agent from U._S.. Customs called in answer the <unk> own and she asked if he knew Alan Taylor was this is all public record and I kinda giggled you know as in my mid to late twenties and so he had you'd stolen money and he was arrested for wire fraud and I have no problem picking up the phone sending out an email or text when I'm curious and so about a year and a half later I get your phone number and I called her up and I said Hey I'm GonNa do what you do so I became a special agent. I've never touched a gun in my life until I was actually till I was thirty years old or maybe it was twenty nine. I became a special agent in a specialized lifetime money laundering white collar crime. I did the undercover books for our district and arrested your typical and I'm going to air quote bad guys. You know guys you were scared about you. Cross the street for and then life happened. My husband got a job in the middle of the country. I had to leave custos and I kind of hung around on the periphery of law enforcement. I did security clearances for the office of Personnel Management. I came back to Portland with my family and I started working at the local sheriff's Office. I I got my certified product. Damanour designation ninety Kim there fraud analysts but I realized we were doing lower level embezzling cases ninety they were you know six seven figure embezzlement cases and when they I'm like all my suspects with the exception of one were female and so I googled female investigators came across the term peak color crime and then about a year and a half after that I went out on my own and I got the domain name and I've been speaking in training on ever since awesome well those are some great steps to get to where you are today to fight fraud and the criminals but hey what are some of your superpowers though I mean you're so talented inexperience. What we're the super powers go back to to fight the bad guys you know I love to make connections so a connection might be in the salary doesn't match the car? The salary doesn't match the house or I say Portland's a small town in there's only two degrees of separation instead of Kevin Bacon sets so making those connections in kind of drawing lines between things that just don't make sense and you know one thing is you can when I can subpoena powering could get bank records. It would be like me at Christmas. My boss would come into the office and I'd be sitting on the floor and then had boxes of keeper deeper and I loved it because if I look at someone's checkbook I can pretty much tell you what their priorities are what they liked to do. It's like a window into into the same. Give me a checkbook and I can. I can tell a lot about a person. This business needs people like you. There's so many people in our business that we're probably you know maybe sometimes thrown into into the position or they took over for somebody that left but knows hard for them to connect the dots and it takes a special personality someone who can really find that needle in the haystack especially when you're looking for fraudsters. You're trying to keep their scheme hidden. Yeah you know my dad always said I was snoopy. I kind of liked to say I'm curious when when things it just don't make sense it's like I had a dentist who got reduction. He's like well. Maybe I should have known what she had a newer model B._M._W.. Than me I know you're kidding anyway but you're not that yeah you eight hundred dollars an hour and she you know fifty thousand dollar car in yours is only twenty five thousand like it. It doesn't make sense <hes> yeah take a high level of common sense common so hey anyway let you know there's a lot got a good listeners out there that have a lot of great questions with topics. We're talking about and why certain people in companies the the employees that really do the hard work every single day. Why are they go bad and you know a lot of a lot of those questions and in some of the questions of preparing for this podcast you know we know that a lot of fraudsters are sometimes those long determined trusted employees just like we talked about in this case just like this woman and then embezzlement case a why do good employees go bad and that's a big question? I get all the time especially when I'm working in an internal theft case now why do good employees go bad and what can we do to prevent it so the people who aren't aware of it. There's the front triangle which is opportunity pressure rationalization. The only thing you can control for is opportunity and you know what people's lives change so you can have someone who's been star employees forever her something changes in their life and they make a bad decision and I just was at the A._C._p.. Global Conference in John Herlin gave this great presentation Asian and one of the things are once it starts. It never stops so once they make once they crossed the line they don't stop so you can only control for the opportunity you could pay you know your office manager a million dollars a year and if they need a two million dollar paycheck they're gonNA steal if there is opportunity so you can't control for the pressures in the rationalizations. It's just it's in their head right. You know so many companies they really we focus on you know what their version of that opportunity through thrown out more and more controls and policies and and it creates a work environment as very stressful and instead of thinking and sometimes and I think we talked about this the other day said a billion a culture of compliance. How about a culture of commitment where you get the buy in of your employees employees who believed the greater vision in how they can add value and I think sometimes accompanies focus on you know that compliance piece a little too hard in that extra pressure that you're talking about can really drive someone nuts and do things that they shouldn't do? You know this is that so I'm the pink Collar Crime Radi but I also do a presentation called honestly dishonest us you know have good people make jokes of it goes to tone at the top and I can't stress. This enough is tone at the top. Don't give your employees <unk> any sort of rationalization that you've got you shouldn't give him the rationalization and you know sixty percent of all dentists. It's crazy get embezzle and I will get a dentist and he'll say a K._M.. Better than average and still talk a lot about it but then something will slip out like you know well I took my wife and kids to Key West for a continuing ed course and I came back. I gave the bill to my office manager the Twenty Twenty Thousand Dollars Bill and she said well. How do you want me to bring it out? I know you to the white begins the dentist just pay it now. The office manager doesn't Know Oh. He's GonNa do a journal entry at the end of the year to adjust for it but at that moment it might happen then it might not happen six weeks six months six years. They're going and you know what he didn't pay taxes on that next family vacation how come he gets to do that and I can't even take my kids to the shore for the weekend okay and so I say never give them that appearance that your not toeing the line like it's just not worth it because they're going to rationalize that behavior behavior like well he did it didn't pay taxes so what's two hundred dollars for me sure and you're right about that corporate culture you know what was the culture. You're trying to create his is it solely just <unk> based on trying to you know make profits and in revenue or you really taking care of the people that are actually helping you grow the business and that's where a lot of companies get in trouble yeah yeah. It's just I can't pound it in enough is a tone at the top and you know it's ethics is a muscle and we use it. We need to use it every single day. You can't just I mean and there's lots of you know again smarter people the academics who do this. You can't just once a year happier employees signed. I'm going behaved. You need to continue late. Remind that exactly and it was interesting a lot of times investigations that I've done and talking to some some the high level level executives at some companies. Sometimes they focus on the wrong. Things are focused on well the computer equipment you know the smartphones in the workplace. These are the To do it and you won't find the fraud until it's just huge and they probably did an audit because something was a balancing in they went and said let's take a look Gavitt and maybe it was because she was the executive assistance and they were too scared to go to the C._E._o.. Rally in the past maybe that had happened in there had been retaliation taliation so you need to empower your employees to if you see something say something and don't don't ever retaliate people that have the alert lines or whistle blower lines. If it's quiet that's not a good sign. People are too scared to call it and you know that from Your Business. It's a false sense of security. You know it's like Oh. We're not getting calls. Where a great meanwhile? You're trying to figure out how come I had six internal cases last month right and no one's Callin me but you're yet is that environment airman culture setup whether or not you're always feel that they there's trust in is really anonymous. I mean so is the communication of that line and how you presented that trust you built within your organization -ation absolutely crazy so hey if this great time great segue to discuss really what pink collar crime really is in. Can you explain Kelly to our listeners. What Pink Pink Collar crime is you? You've touched on it so far but really how's it different than white collar cry so white collar crime did term came out in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine by Edwin Sutherland and and it's a it's a crime committed by a person of high social status in their position so and there's been a lot of debate over the years is it based on the offender or the offense but when people seek of white collar crime the vision they get it's Bernie madoff or it's a you know a young Hot Wall Street trader and a hedge. That's white collar crime is just it's The Wall Street Journal sort of you know above the fold stories whereas the color crime crime is I call it. The relatable crime don't relate to Bernie madoff. No most people didn't invest with him. Regular people didn't and to be perfectly honest honest a lot of people don't even feel sorry for the people who lost money with Bernie which is totally wrong completely wrong but we do relate to the dental office to the soccer team into the water district the crimes that happened in our neighborhoods in their committed by people that we know like we see them at the store our kids to school with their kids so I call him relatable crime or the everywhere crime everywhere I go and people find out what I do. They're like let me tell you about my embezzlement. Exactly clammy white collar crime. I guess my version is it made for Hollywood or made for TV and that's what it is in the general public. That's what they see. The the most salacious you know frauds and Bernie Madoff so the world that make the news and make the headlines and make movies and the general public <hes> forgets about those bad guys are the people in in that bookkeeper's office or the people the Treasurer for the P._T._a.. Absolutely crazy so again we're back to you know people in positions of trust or violating these these positions and using a position to embezzle their company so are there typical white collar crime criminals out there reserves sorta like a <hes> a group of people that you would classify as someone you would really look for in you know in what are some of those traits if there are such a thing of of a true pink color criminal sure so there's I've got several traits one of them is. They're not the disgruntled employees generally. It's Kinda like you know your go to person and they're the Go-to a two person who never takes vacation so could make your employees take vacations and I was just listening to like marketplace money about Mike rotations and and those are like two or three days so millennials are taking micro patient will if someone's gone two or three days. No one's GONNA cover their responsibilities in there and the F._d._i._C. at the I._C.. Actually has a daily death started because if you're not at work you can't cover it up so employees that are taking vacations that the pink flag I call Him Ping fights instead of red plots but I had a dentist who got ripped off nicest young woman ever and we have the seed when her office manager was in the office in six and a half if you're she only took one and a half days vacation her husband had surgery for cancer <unk> today she got in a car accident. She came in with like the whiplash. You know you see on T._v.. Order he couldn't miss work because she had to answer the phone. She had to get the statements so yeah so employs. The don't take vacations in actually I gotta write a blog likeness. Mike rotations don't count because if you're only gone two or three days people are GonNa say oh. They're going to be back. We don't need to look at their stuff now. You need to look at the stuff I know you're right and and other people that are in the office. I mean they don't WanNa do someone else's work to so so it's it's a part of the whole culture of the problem <hes> as well as so that bad guy I pink collar criminal will take advantage of that culture that company knowing no one's on a really come over and do Kelly's job. Why Kellie Kellie does a lot of stuff is really difficult? I don't want any part of that that so they're hoping you get back so you do it so they. They don't WanNa touch your your side of the business right yeah yeah. There was actually this week. There's a prince to cut <hes> in a car accident and he you know the police came. We had over nine hundred thousand dollars in cash. It turns out he'd been investing for years so he he literally was in a car accident. They found a bag of money and at all unravel to find out his embezzlement so not being able to get into work is a big thing if you have an employee that has a garnishment aline their financial circumstances have changed in you know it I kind of like you know. Take off the blinders open up ears in start paying attention. I have a friend who had a manufacturing this. She's like we garnishments for child support or gentleman's all the time and I said what do those employees touch money she just now and I said okay. What about your office employees? Do those employees garnishments like now. I said well if your office manager gets a garnishment or judgment you need to pay attention and and then he gets on this story that you mentioned but there was a woman who is caught this week in literally when after they terminated hurts they went through her desk in underneath. You know the sort of cover that your computer computer sits on that. She had a bunch of checks underneath her desk that she was those. Were like checked. She was gonNA steal like make this so now. I'm like maybe I should like an office cleaning once a month I kinda joking up that your cases where like you know they've had the records in their debts so if you do find out at someone's terminating first of all is to an attorney. I never liked to stay hiring attorney bet you've got to hire an attorney. Check their desks shocking that a lot of people get sloppy and lazy and you'll find all sorts of stuff in their ask and that's a common trait on get into this next question was uncover some of that but in my experience clutter disorganization I mean a messy desk. This isn't your your closet. Genius people that this is somebody most likely trying to cover the tracks or they got some other serious problems but if you're a manager of an organization a leader and so forth unless like l._S._i.. And that's a sign in why wouldn't you want your organizational your workspace to be clean and tidy and Organiz so especially if you're in the bookkeeping or financial side of the business in my office well you got a little O._C._D.. And so and people in our business we are right little you know little. I want things in the right place. You can have disorganization if I'm going to be able to do my job right in the vessel that these are great warning signs so you know Kelly. We're talking about these traits in these characteristics so you know white white collar crime or in this case pink colored grime criminals in we're talking about the fraud triangles any of those traits or characteristics fit in that triangle our listeners may control roll or help prevent the fraud from occurring in the first place. Maybe outside of <hes> reducing that opportunity so one of the first things these are all like easy going to call embezzlement settlement is like nail your bank statements home or male into mailbox that only you can control so so many people don't do that you know but <unk>. Why would you nail him to the office where someone could inter- sucks outbreak yeah so that's like the easiest thing to do is to do that? You know another using if someone's financial circumstances have changed again. I say I got this great term parking lot audit. Does the car match the salary so I mean I had I had a guy it's just a couple hours south of me and the story was he showed up at work. One day in there is an escalade in the parking you want and he's like what I came her and then he starts like paying attention to what she's saying. She's talking about horses and so he starts snooping around eight eight hundred thousand dollars later and unfortunately for him she stole from his personal accounts because he ran inc in if she would stole from the corporate accounts it would have been covered by insurance shrimp like literally look outside. You know good style matched the salary so what to look the other way though I don't WanNa get involved or hey Kelly is the hardest worker worker I've ever seen. She comes in early. Everyday's leaves lay never takes a vacation she heck. She never leaves her desk. You know and in his like I that's yeah that's a great trait but Kelly what we're sort of talking about earlier with some of these characteristics you know trust but verify folks and do some of the things Kelly's talking talking about some of the things that really obvious you have somebody that may be is an hourly worker in cruises up with a brand new escalate that that The two hundred and fifty thousand dollar case Kelly were this bookkeeper created bogus companies vendors and service related companies in one wasn't extermination company company they would come in and spray the building but in the in he would send out the payment will long story short this business <hes> got an audit from the state where they weren't paying taxes for the last three or four years s when they called the financial crimes unit in s are looking at the books and discover a lot of these companies that were service related the company's never existed he was actually mailing them to himself and no one at the business ever realized that though that address was his home and <hes> and then what they did notice to they had a pretty bad bug problem you know so these are the things that Kelly's talking about folks is the Common Sense One and one equals two if it doesn't look right right it doesn't smell right. You know it's worth a little bit more investigation or another look at that so no he Kelly. Is there any other great tips or tricks. You know that you use for investigating interview knit pink color criminal so you know if you think it's happening and I'm GonNa tell you to trust your gut because because most people it's you know if you think it's probably happening the you've got assemble a fraud team and the coach. It's GonNa be an attorney. I have to be hired via an attorney because you know attorney client privilege. You need to deal with insurance. Hopefully lead you have insurance. You may decide to contact law enforcement. If you have insurance. They're going to make sure that police report is you may need a computer forensics spokesperson and then the most important. I've had a couple of victims. Tell me this now. Is You need a therapist and I don't think that jokingly at all because money's replaceable <unk>. It's tangible you can is a dentist. You can fill in drill more as a business owner. You can make in some more widgets but you've been ripped John's that feeling of just disappointment shame guilt like how did I not see this happening is immense and like I said and when people find out what I do I mean I I met a guy about two months ago and he heard when I did. He immediately spilled out his story without <music> out you know and it it took place over ten years ago. It is still fresh in his mind. You won't ever forget it so I always tell business. Owners get back active business leaving it to the professionals. You absolutely do not want to confront someone without good legal counsel because if you mistakenly we accused someone of embezzlement you're looking at a lawsuit and CHAPULTEPEC did that recently and it costs them eight million dollars for using a worker. Don't let true emotions. Overrule your your because this is incredibly emotional. I mean I had a woman last week crying on the phone to League and I met her yesterday teared up again yesterday because the shame that didn't happen and I trusted her. It's not money's he's just money and all this other stuff is so much harder to get pass through personal yeah exactly and that that's a big. That's a big difference between pink color white collar white collar crime very hands off. It's like Oh it's financial statement fraud or Ponzi steeds that pink colored these people that have been in your business. They have have come into your home a lot of times their family members sometimes they have violated you possibly every day for maybe even decades nights and can you imagine that feeling or everyday line straight to your face babysitting their kids or I mean yeah. It's it's so sad and in what's was interesting. We sort of talked about this pre podcast but you know we feel for the victims and victims should not feel shame. We understand that heck a lot of people in the fraud prevention in business. We've been victims of crimes ourselves. Maybe that's why we're pretty good at what we do but we know what to look for and we we've been hit before and we know that feeling an impact that it that it has hasn't the emotions at well up inside you about the personal vendetta. Basically you won't have in your house. Sometimes you don't WanNa share that information but it is so important. Isn't it Kelly to share sure that information and support those victims so we can help them and help share that information with others so others. Oh fall victims to the same scam yeah. I mean when I was this year. I got banned from same press release because I wanted to press release on every single case and the public information officer. He's like these cases are boring. No one wants to hear about this one that I met with yesterday. She's just like I wanted to make it so law. Enforcement has to do this because I want people to understand. It happens all the time and yeah so you've gotta get the word out ride. The fraud cannot be watered down because is not bleeding to death on the side of the road or a gunshot. You know homicide. I'm aside at the mall. I mean it's this is still important enough to build awareness and education with the general public so they don't become victims of of fraud schemes and so forth so a a Lotta the loudest information has been watered down in our society and with the news and you know people like Kelly folks are really trying to do a great job. Get the word out so you raise that awareness in its front sooner hopefully more so with more news releases yeah absolutely maybe that bad guys on be running down the road from the police one day after he left A. Ah Restaurant that a lot of high fiber or analysis on talk about that so we'll <hes> we'll think about that but <hes> so hey thanks so much to Kelly leave for being a great guest today. I can't say enough what a pleasure it has been talking fraud and learn about pink collar criminals today. Kelly thank you so much and do you have any other final thoughts or takeaways takeaways listeners. You know optimism bias. We always think it can't happen to us but it can. I mean I'm a victim of a tangentially from a piece of property. I unworthy water district was stolen from actually. The woman ended up committing suicide but it can happen to anyone. I don't care if you're an astronaut astronaut. There's an astronaut in Seattle who seven hundred fifty thousand dollars to a brain surgeon. It doesn't matter how smart you are. It's like it's something you have to give up control and you have to trust but just because you trust doesn't mean you don't verify that's exactly right yeah trust but always always verify and if in your particular environment do something that creates that level and and what we call in criminology one a one and Kelly and you can start laughing that perception of detection Asian. Someone's got to know that you're GONNA follow up. Someone's gotTa Know Your own double. Check on them and because as a manager or leader in your organization that's part of your job whether or not is dealing with someone the one that has potential to commit fraud so crater perception of detection where you're doing something extra in that lot of times that's just building relationships understanding the People's family situation known the names of their kids in understanding when they go from a nineteen eighty five <hes> Ford escort to nine thousand in Nineteen Escalade Vanessa problem in the parking lot audit. I love that and that's what a great takeaway so hey Kelly helping our listeners contact you for more help and advice so I have the website pink color crime dot com. I also have Kelly passing DOT com. I'm on linked in. I tweet my twitter one analyst T._V. X. C. E. hip hop on email Lincoln twitter. I love to talk to victims. I also talked onto the perpetrators. I get a lot of people who have committed these crimes. Find out about me and they want to tell me their story. I love that yeah. It's awesome so the just my websites are linked in or twitter. I'm all over. That's why we got this yeah. That's a great point what I was thinking about it earlier and you just mentioned it a lot of times in our people in our business. We have to new better job of listening to the bad guys sometimes. We don't always get to interview them. Interrogate them but listen to those behaviors and if we do get a chance to talk to them explain to the victims or potential victims out there why that bag. I thought it was easy to commit fraud against your company or against against you a lot of times. Those criminals believe it was just too easy. Oh Yeah No. I love talking to the guys and I you know I have totally doesn't like to talk to listen to the bad guys and I'm like you're not gonNA learn if you don't listen to what exhausting and most of the browsers win that they're in that situation and maybe not murderers and robbers but a lot of the financial fraudsters out there like after they've been busted. They liked to brag about their case. They they like to talk about it. Because it's a big deal. They think they're the genius in the room that outsmart everybody. They did for a while but somebody somebody smarter like Kelly to them but that's that's so important always if you get a chance to take that opportunity to learn from the firms or learn from what they're writing white papers into podcasts. S. Just like ruined the bad guys day so hey Greg Kelly great so much hey everyone all achilles contact information that she spoke about listen to podcasts notes with links links to a website linked in pages and twitter accounts. Please reach out to Kelly for some more information and advice. Kelly's a great resource on Fighting Pete caller criminal so you guys as always always please subscribe to and like Rim bag is a radio on apple itunes Youtube spotify and all those other free download services. We really appreciate your feedback feedback and continued support in. Hey thanks again in stay tuned for another great episode from Roosevelt Guys Day. Radio had a great week. Thanks for listening to ruin a bad guys day radio PODCAST WITH SKIP Myers. If you liked our show these tell your friends fans and colleagues you can learn more about us at Ruina bad guys day dot com or visit us on twitter and facebook at Ruina bad guys day join us for another episode <music> out ruin a bad guys day radio podcast the information provided and ruin a bad guys day. Radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not be considered legal or financial advice. You should consult with legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

Kelly Kelly fraud embezzlement Office Manager twitter Kelly Paxton Kelly Paxon Mrs Kelly Paxton Attorney Wall Street Journal Greg Kelly Atlanta HUFFINGTON District Court John Herlin Liberty Police Department office of Personnel Management
How Fraudsters Exploit Malware and Phishing for Financial Gain

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

29:24 min | 2 years ago

How Fraudsters Exploit Malware and Phishing for Financial Gain

"Welcome to ruin a back is day radio podcast with fraud expert skip buyers. This is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best fraud prevention solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team and held on prosecute criminals. Now, here's your host skip buyers. Hello, everyone in for tuning into ruin a bag is day radio. Combat. Hey, we got a great news article this week as some other information elected share some other things have been hitting the news quite a bit in the last couple of weeks. And I thought I was sure that with you guys. A lot of good information. You could take back to work for to your friends or family to help them prevent from being a victim from fraudsters and Mauer attacks and this week, but I really wanna talk about is how fraudsters exploited malware for financial gain so Mao where what is now receives in the news and probably hits your spam? Folder credit bit from other publications or other companies trying to get your business, but Mauer's any softer intentionally designed to cause damage to computer. Maybe it's your server your computer network and smell or does it damage after it's already implanted or introduce in some way into a target, computer or network. So Mauer is going to be attached most likely to some sort of phishing Email in. Somehow, you the user or someone else in your company or network does something that unfolds this code that's part of this, malware, I could be commuted computer, viruses, or worms Trojan horses. Sometimes it's spyware ransomware on there's all kinds of other terms. But Mallard basic form is is militias. It has malicious intent in it acts against you know, your company's best interests or your best interests. And there's something harmful with that malware that is typically designed to still your personal information. And so that the Bagai can have financial gain at some point by defrauding you or someone else. So before it gets started tradition. Here's always talk about stupid criminals in boy, there's not a not a day that goes by that. I don't have a hard time. Finding some news articles about dumb criminals, and this is a news article adult Oklahoma involving Uber, and it looks like things at work. Out well for three Oklahoma City teenagers who allegedly planned to rob a Bank using Uber as transportation and police say that the Uber driver who took the to debate one Tuesday afternoon called Thorndike's EFI heard one of them say he had a gun and he's on a cap somebody. So police said that the gun was later found on one of the teams after he tried to fight officers who arrived at the Bank, the teens had apparently already arranged in Uber for their getaway. Car says the news crew, it looks like the Uber driver his name. Mr. K says he was waiting outside the Bank. We saw the teenagers being taken away in handcuffs interested in was told by an officer that there had been a robbery attempt. Well, I guess he was right. Looks like according to drivers says, hey, they called me for the getter getaway car. Can you believe that? Hey, if you're going to do something like that like, rob a Bank, get your own car. He says, yeah. No kidding. Pretty stupid. What are they thinking? I mean, I'm gonna call Uber driver. Hey, buddy, wait outside here. So I'm gonna go rob this Bank and stick around long enough. So I can hop in. And we get away in time crazy stuff. I mean, I'm sure there's some sort of a legal substance involved there. They were taking before the robbery or before they decided to call Uber. Thank you for that. Great news, article out of home. That's awesome. So today fold in little bit more information about how fraudsters exploit malware for financial gain. So this week. I like to talk about a big case that the feds may just about a week ago. Just very recent. He may seen it in the news recently. But this is a very important case federal case where two Romanian cybercriminals were convicted of all twenty one counts relating to infect the over four hundred thousand victim computers with Mauer Hess. Right inflicting in being victim computers with Mauer and stealing millions and millions of dollars. And this is the actual press release that came out from the Justice department. Just very recently federal grand jury last week convicted to Bucharest Romanian residents of Twenty-one counts related to their scheme to infect victim. Computers with malware in order to steal credit card numbers and other information to sell on the dark market the dark web and other websites, and they are. Our intent was to mind crypto currency engage in online auction fraud and nounce by assistant attorney general Brian been cow sqi of the Justice Department's criminal division way to go menace. Also to these defendants were convicted at the twelve day trial of conspiracy to commit wire fraud conspiracy to traffic in counterfeit service marks that's interesting aggravated identity theft conspiracy to commit money laundering, in twelve counts of wire fraud each person there so citizen will begin in a few months in a Cording to testimony at the trial in other court documents one of the co conspirators who pleaded guilty collectively operated a criminal conspiracy out of Bucharest Romania. So we've been talking about this for months now on these podcasts about the infusion of international crime gangs targeting. Americans here in the United States is still are ideas and our cash, obviously, it's amazing how widespread in worldwide. This problem phenomenon is so the press release goes on says apparently this all began in two thousand seven with the development of proprietary malware, which they disseminated through militias emails purporting to be legitimate from entities like Western Union nor nanny virus and the IRS. So this is a old scheme being redone again over and over again. And why do the bag is all the fraudsters? All these people who are bad guys all over the world. Keep doing the same thing over and over to target us. That's right because it works. It's easy. It keeps working we need to keep getting the awareness out there in educate, everyone about the potential problems with Mauer and how the bad guys exploit this now where for their financial gain to commit. Fraud, you know. So again, what is Maur while this is software. This intentionally designed to cause damage to computers or servers or computer networks in it does damage of his after it has been in planted in some way on a computer. So how is this done think real hard? Now, the house is done while you're right. It's is from emails fishing. That's what this is about. This is why you see so many emails come in. And you can't understand why you're getting all these strange emails is fishing in what is fishing? Let's let's regroup in talk about what fishing is so fishing. Basically is Email messages claiming to come from a recognized source. You know, be company most likely someone you recognize it could be a person asking you to verify your account or real of re enter a reorder products, you know, verify your information or even making make a payment, and you know, looking at my. Personal emails again this morning before the podcast. I saw three or four phishing emails from lenders. I've been approved again four twenty five thousand dollars, and I must a, you know, submit they request immediately. I have a certain timeframe where I can get these great rates for this loan. And so what's the key parts of a phishing attack? Will of it lacks certain personalization to you is gonna be dare so incised that gonna be to skip Myers or to Bill Williams. I mean, isn't it be something a little more generic because in this case, most likely the bad guys have your Email address may be from some data breach in the past. But they still don't have your full information. So the most common type of phishing scam. They're deceptive fishing refers to any attack by which the fraudsters will impersonate someone or something or some legitimate company in this case in attempt to. Fill your personal information in log on credentials. So think about that how often you get these phony baloney emails in your inbox. And you don't think they're really that big of a deal the potential for Mauer being attached to those phishing emails, those emails that you don't know where the come from is extremely high in those emails are extremely dangerous. So let's think about this a little bit further. So what's the next really level of phishing emails will there? Spearfishing of these go to the next level. The bag is have a little bit more of your personal information in there using that personal information to really target you that Email or that phishing Email will be very very personalized to you dare skip Myers. So it's a more sophisticated version win this cinder. The Bagai the Frazar uses, you know, certain information that they obtained in order to direct. You inquest you to do some things so that they can still your credentials. So. So just remember that a lot of these other emails are done look personalized because I believe that you don't be a little more trustworthy with an Email. They comes in as personalized specifically to use some of the common denominators between just your regular deceptive, phishing emails or spear phishing emails is that they both will have some form. Sorry sense of urgency. That's right. They're gonna ask you to do something in do it soon. There's only a call to action you must do something. Now, click on this link. Download this file do something of that can start the process to download that malware on your computer, your personal computer or your company computer from which at that point will affect your company's network in that my friends is something you don't want to do because as that will be the granddaddy of the mall phishing attacks. That's what the bad guys really wanna do especially if you work at a Bank or large financial institution or. Or even a company that that keeps a lot of customer records emails, and or like equifax social security numbers as the granddaddy of them all data breaches. So why are we talking about this? Well, let's let's get into this news article from the Justice department just a little bit more here. So it looks like this the Maui where that the bag is sent out harvested Email addresses from the infected computer such as contact lists Email account, and they sent militias emails again to these newly harvested Email addresses and the defendants infected and controlled more than four hundred thousand individual computers pry, primarily right here in the United States. So again, this is all about fishing in deploying them our attached to that phishing Email. So we're gonna get to that a little bit further here in a moment, so controlling these computers allow the defense to harvest information largely in controlling these computers allow the defend. To use a the processing power of computer to solve different complex algorithms for financial benefit of this fraud group a process known as crypto currency mining. Everyone's heard about that. So they're leveraging the rewards are that they're having at the the gains in the all the different information that they're obtaining by illegal means they're harboring this information to maximize potential in this case in one form of their fraudulent criminal enterprise air is crypto currency mining. So let's talk about real quick. How can we identify some of these actors win? They're in the process of trying to commit fraud against our companies, especially in this case using phishing emails as a way to deploy or exploit the Mao where within your personal computer or company, computer or network, so one big thing out there in a measure, if ones the aware this anybody's IT out there anyone. Anyone anybody's who's in IT probably knows this. But it's called the cyber killed Jane in something I've used for several years now is part of basically basic problem solving in you can use the cyber kill chain in different ways to really see how different tax problem solving ideas can come about if former late your own processes in procedures around that. But let's talk about that the cyber kill chain. And basically the cyber killed chain started from computer, scientists at Lockheed Martin corporation for a framework or model to defend against computer tax against a tax do computer networks than they started this procedure framework called the cyber kill chain back in two thousand eleven and they wrote that a lot of text may occur in different phases. In can be disrupted through certain controls at each phase. Does that sound familiar? So love you in the physical security world. We talk about the. Four days or five days of physical security are loss prevention and a lot of that has to do with detecting denying disrupting deterring degrading defending in whatever kind of these you wanna use, but those are different levels or phases that you can use to defend yourself against a particular attack from physical source or in this case from cybercriminals. So let's talk about the cyber killed chain. So the cyber killed shame basically reveals again, the phases of a cyber attack in those real in the fraud analysts world who really fight charge vaccine online, criminals using stolen credit cards to buy goods and services online through your website. You can use the same cyber kill chain to really look at how your bag is our operating within your website. So again, let's talk about this. The cyber kill chain reveals phases of a cyber on. I would say or fraud attack. Into your system. So from an early reconnaissance to the goal of data ex exploitation, so really the kill chain can also be used as a met. You management tool us what I use it for every day, especially in looking at how browsers are hitting my website for fraudulent means, you know, what are they actually doing? I apply. This cyber killed chain. In helps me understand in helped me train others. Tell them understand the different phases by which a suburb criminals trying to hit our website. So according to Lockheed Martin cyber kill chain that they develop the threats progress through several phases in the model. So number one all the bad guys. Do some sort of reconnaissance a number one in the cyber kill chain is reconnaissance that guy is is doing some recon before he actually makes these attempts to commit fraud. So what is his main? So the intruder a fraud starts collecting different data. He selects a target. They research it, and then they attempt to Denton. Fai? What were they turn a dentist when they're looking at your potential side to attack? They're looking for vulnerabilities, those vulnerabilities those those holes in that damn that the kinks in your armor. They're looking for vulnerabilities in that network or within your computer? Heck, they're looking for vulnerabilities, probably even in your training program. You know, are your are your employees trained about cyber security fishing in all the different ways. Bad guys can commit fraud online via Email, so that's very important to reconnaissance number one in the cyber kill chain. Yes. Hello. That's for that thing. Anyway, so net number two weapon. Weaponize ation, the fraudster creates a remote access where weapon such a virus or worm Taylor to one or more vulnerabilities. Okay. In this case. What is that weapon? The weapon will be a phishing Email. That's right. He's creating efficient eat. Male attack. Why does he do it because it works? It works over and over again. So number three. What do they do is the delivery the fraudster transmits that weapon in this case the weapon is going to be this fit phishing Email to target? Your your customers yourself or your employees ease via these Email attachments. Bogus websites. It could be a USB drive. That's just left lane around in your office in someone accidentally puts it into the computer, which unleashes the malware. So number one's reconnaissance number to weaponize -ation number three is the delivery of that weapon in this case is going to be a phishing Email in somebody delivered via Email attachments or click here download this. So number four exploitation in this what we're really trying to get down to the nitty gritty here expectations that amount were weapons program that code that's inside that mall where that's release. The minute. You click on something you shouldn't be clicking on from a phishing Email that now wear installs access point or what they call a back door. That's usable by the intruder. Does that make sense of the bad guy is purposely trying to do something that you're gonna do? You. Don't think you're not download this free software. Download the something that link that he's giving you because it's creating a sense of urgency. Call to action in a moment you click on it. You're you're not gonna know it. But the moment you click on that or download this malicious software program that malware weapon or coating is on a start installing a certain back door. So the Bagai can get into the to the back of your computer networks. So that's number four number five the installation. So that's that's pretty much easy to understand insulation is all part of pretty much runs together with the exploitation. A number six is the command in control. So number six command in control means. The Mauer is a Abel's the intruder to have hands on your computer. He's out there. But actually, he's got hands on your computer in. It's they have persistent access to your network game. This is all behind the scenes is is a crane unbeknownst to you in number seven actions on the objective. So the intruder the Frossard takes actions to achieve their goals such as downloading all kinds of data destroying data causing sort of other mainstream crip data of for ransom. So we've probably heard of that from your IT professionals so defensive courses of action that can be taken against these phases. And go back to the four days in this case that Lockheed uses, but that's to detect you know, we have to have a mechanism in place to detect determine whether or not an attacker is just poking around our network or our computer in number to deny we have to deny the intruder in prevent information disclosure. And prevent them from on authorize access into our systems. Number three. We have to disrupt the Bagai stopper change any outbound traffic to the to the attacker that means outbound traffic from our server from our hard drive from our systems in computers in our organization and number four degrade the attack counterattack, we get counterattacked command in control do something. That's signals the attacker that this isn't working. So that go on further by saying that the actions on the object in the attacker works to achieve the objective of the intrusion, which can include, you know, again, the destruction of that data NSO important that really look at that. So we're trying to degrade his ability to carry out his fraud. So does that make sense of the make sense, I'll have some links to the cyber kill chain put some notes in the podcast notes while to help you understand that. But now that I've explained the cyber kill chain does start making sense. About how Melwert can be used by fraudsters to explain our weaknesses in our systems and our computers, and our networks and sure it's sure cancel those phases. If you wear those phases, you understand how bad guy or cybercriminals will operate when they're trying to target your organization. So let's talk a little bit more about this article from the Justice department, so the defendant's, you stolen, Email credentials to copy of victims Email contact. So they also activated files at force infected computers to register Email attacks with AOL the defendants also registered more than one hundred thousand Email accounts, using this particular method. That's that's mazing. They're really well organized and apparently very well educated. And then they sent militias emails to these addresses to the compromise contactless in through this method. They sent tens of millions of Melissa's emails to unsuspecting people. So when the victims. Were infected, you know, their computers were infected, and then when these Bagai are Greg is visited websites like Facebook or pay Pelly, EBay and so forth. Defendants would intercept the request in redirect the computer to nearly identical website. So this is this pretty tricky. So the bad guys are already infected computer, the mayor's been install because you clicked on some you probably shouldn't have. But when the victims with these infected computers visited websites. They're your own Facebook page, you hit you pay Pelata pay pal account or your Email account. These bad guys would intercept that requests in redirect that your computer to two identical website are almost identical website that they had created in the defense within still your account credentials. And this is the mother low that they're looking for then they would use a stolen credit card. Right. So this is really important to understand. Why are they doing this whether using stolen credit card for information to fund their criminal infrastructure, the criminal enterprise? This is what is all about. This is a business to them. The gotta fund their criminal enterprise by doing all these different things by defrauding us. This would include renting service phase, registering domain names with fictitious identities pain for virtual private networks are VPN's which further concealed their identities. So the defendants were also able to inject fake pages into legitimate websites like EBay to make victims believe they were receiving in following instructions from legitimate websites. Then they were actually following the instructions of the defendants man, this is crazy stuff. So they place more than one thousand fraudulent listings for cars, and motorcycles and other high priced goods on EBay or other similar auction sites in the photos of the items were also infected with malware was then re redirected the computers, or you the end user that clicked on the image to another fictitious website designed by the defendants too. Re- resemble a legitimate EBay page crazy and these fictitious web pages prompted the users you and I to pay for the goods through a non existent EBay escrow account that was simply a person higher by the bad guy. So the users paid for the goods on these fraudulent Esco escrow accounts in agents who in turn wired the money to others in eastern Europe Romania where these guys are from who in turn gave it back to the defendants. The payers in the victims never received the merchandiser items in never yacht their money back. No kidding. So this resulted loss of millions and millions of dollars to to a lot of Americans. And this particular group, I guess are called the bay rob group. They laundered the money by hiring money transfer Asians in created fictitious companies with fraudulent websites design to give the impression that there are actual businesses engaged in legitimate financial transactions and money. So. Stolen from the victims was wired to these financial fraudulent companies and then in turn wired to Western Union or mining around offices in Romania, the FBI investigate the case with the assistance of the Romanian national plays. That's also some good collaboration there. Hey, guys. This really tells you about the severity of malware and how bad guys will exploit malware for financial gain to still your credentials your identity for financial gain. And at this particular level, sophistication bad guys are doing things to really make themselves look legitimate. They're gonna be impostures will be impersonators of of other companies, the the emails look, really good. But what really at the core of of all of this starts, the Maur to work that's deficient, Email that she received in when you click on a link when you download something that you didn't really want that can potentially have. Quences to you and others within your organization or home by releasing information to the bad guys with your personal identification being compromised and other financial information that will be used for financial game. So let's be very very careful with all these phishing. Emails are coming out there. Remember to the main emails you're getting right now. And really take time to look at those emails that are coming in either from your business Email in a specially your personal Email. That lack personalization Email that isn't address you that came from somewhere else. That's asking you to do something call to action, and there's a sense of urgency behind it. And they're asking you to click on the link or download some software the other emails on a little bit more personalizes on called spear phishing some addressed to you similar things will be around this particular, Email call to action since version city. Is on asks you to do something click here. Download this don't do that. And if you see those things that's at your company, send that information to your IT cyber security team. They need to see that information and try to block those IP addresses of those E mail accounts are sending those phishing emails to you and others at your business guys. I hope this has been very very helpful to you. And please Email me back within the information pretty other questions about this particular podcast. It's so important that we worked together to fight the bad guys. They work twenty four seven trying to sell our credentials or personal information to fought us every single day. Thank goodness for the FBI and other authorities are working together to fight crime and Ruina bad guys day. This is a great bus. This helps everybody that's listening today and others to help fight this kind of fraud, and phishing now, I don't know. So stop all the phishing emails. I certainly get several those every single day. But remember this podcast is for you. This is. A broad practitioners podcast designed to help you work together better to ruin a bad guys day, and again, guys if you like this podcast place Ville free to like us on I tunes U2. Stitcher in other free. Download sites are really really appreciated and right now every single day. I see the number of downloads and new members to the website continually. Go up. That's really great. I can't thank you enough input. Please feel free to go to the website with all the Rooney bag guys day radio merchandise and shop through that in please. Let me know if there's anything else that you think I should actually provide on that side as well. So thank you once again and everyone ruin a bad guys day aggregrate week. Thanks for listening to ruin a bad guys day radio podcast with skip Myers. If you show these tell your friends and colleagues, you can learn more about us and ruin a bad guys date hot com or visit us on Twitter and Facebook at ruin at guys day. Join us for another episode of Ruina bad guys day radio podcast. The information provided and ruin a bad guys day radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not be considered legal or financial advice. You should consult with legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

fraud Mauer Hess Justice department Myers Bank EBay robbery United States Oklahoma Facebook Western Union FBI Maur officer Lockheed Martin corporation Oklahoma City
HACKED! My Identity Has Been Stolen - Really!

Ruin a Bad Guy's Day Radio - Fraud Prevention Podcast

18:21 min | 2 years ago

HACKED! My Identity Has Been Stolen - Really!

"Welcome to ruin a back is day radio podcast with fraud expert skip buyers. This is your guide to fighting fraud and chargebacks learn the best fraud prevention solutions and strategies how to enhance your fraud prevention team and held on prosecute criminals. Now, here's your host skip buyers. Hello. Welcome to ruin a bad guys day radio. Hey, I'm skip Myers. Hey, welcome to the show. Glad to have you this week while what what a crazy week. It's been so far got a lot of great news to report for you. But first off like let you know that this episode is sponsored by Nord VPN as Nord virtual private network services company that takes your privacy seriously. You can have access to five thousand two hundred thirty eight servers worldwide. Wow, that's one of the most that's out the right now, there's no logs policy by them. So they don't keep any records or any search logs that you may have while you're on the internet, and you could connect six devices at the same time. And right now, there's a thirty day money back guaranteed through nor VPN. So right now, they're most poplar plan is a three year plan for two ninety nine per month. That's right. Most popular plan right now is only two ninety nine per month on the three. Three year plan. Don't wait. This deal will not last long. This is a great deal from Nord VPN. Thank you nor VPN anyway. Well, what a one crazy week. It's been and you probably saw the podcast title, hacked, my identities been stolen. Yes. It has been. We'll get to that here in a second. But you know, this is just a couple of days after the holidays and all my wife and I row shopping around. We were at local store in toys section of the store. This couple was asking this salesperson about Barbie dolls and all they really didn't know too much about Barbie dolls in the Barbie doll collection. And apparently they're trying to buy for their niece. And so they're asking the cells personna about you know, what's the deal with all these Barbie dolls? The Barbie-doll collections. Salesperson was really nice. He says, well, we got this airplane Barbie doll collection, where the Barbie is a flight attendant, and it comes with this airplane, and she's dressed nicely and flight attendant uniforms and so forth, and that's about thirty nine ninety five. Also. Get the sports car Barbie. Oh, well, what's that about well for fifty nine ninety nine you can get Barbie? And she's got a corvette that she can sit in and drive around and look really cool. And then the couple of what's this Barbie doll thing over here. This collection is like two hundred and fifty dollars and the sales guy says, well, that's the divorce Barbie collection. And what do you mean, the divorce Barbie collection, and he said well for two hundred and fifty dollars you get Barbie. But you also get Barbie in Qin's four one K plan kipnes, sports car and Kim's house. So we thought that was sort of funny. But anyway, well, what a crazy week it's been again and the fraud business. I won't let you down about stupid criminals. They're out there again, and this time international credit card skimming, which is occurred. In cheat him county, Tennessee as reported by w k r in dot com and cheat him county, Tennessee, what cheat him county. Deputies apparently intercepted three men. They save been stealing. Tens of thousands of dollars. From unsuspecting people in middle, Tennessee. The investigators say the crime spree has ties to international retail crime. While we've been here a lot of that lately and to the suspects of foreign national both from Romania weren't the suspects initially claimed to be from the Czech Republic and had fake ID's to support that we're seeing a lot and a lot more bag is coming over here from other countries with counterfeit ID's is really amazing. How continues to go on when questioned by detectives the suspects confess saying they came to America for the express purpose of stealing money from Americans because they say, it's a victimless crime in their mind. They said banks never really worry about it. They just cover the loss. The bus went down just about a week ago. When cheat him county deputy Paul Ivy pulled over a Chevy trailblazer in Kingston springs, apparently at that time, the men were in the vehicle and when asked by. Deputy what's going on? The men said there for nationals from Romania investigators said that one of them is from Romania is actually the brains of the operation and he had a fake ID though from the Czech Republic. So this guy didn't speak a whole lot of English. Apparently, maybe you just playing that game. But during the traffic, stop the police started to search the vehicle and the yielded components of an international credit card skimming operation, including passports, Romanian currency airplane. Tickets fake ID's and closest six thousand dollars at investigators say was stolen cash. So this is very interesting. So these guys were busted linked to international crime gang involving alleged skimmers who apparently admitted to thirties they look for debit cards rather than credit cards. They rather have those. Plus, they told investigators that the chip readers are harder to crack than the credit card sliders or the magnetic stripes, and we've talked about that before the Killys hill of. Penn. Pata retailers is still the magnetic strip and the bad guys know that they can't really do anything with that EM V chip they can still in co that magnetic trip with your stolen information. And so apparently that it happened to me here recently so couple days ago out to dinner with my wife in my phone rings in my Haya, caller ID picks up the call and it says it's from lifelock. And so I answered the call and never got a call from life. Lifelock. Since I've started with their service about a year ago, and that sort of what their service about a year ago. Guest win the guard. You're probably right. Yes. It's the equifax data breach from last September two thousand seventeen when I decided I should probably go a little bit further protecting myself from the bag is so anyway, lifelock calls me a couple nights ago amount to dinner with my wife, and it's re-. It's a recording is pretty much asking me if I'm familiar with an account that is being open, and I won't say the name of this. Taylor. But it's a large chain of women apparel retailers across the United States. And apparently somebody that day was attempting to open up a credit line with this women's retailer. Now, they didn't know what branch was they didn't have any suspect information, but it pretty much went like this. If if you initiated the activity say, yes, this was me, and then they'll send me some sort of Email confirmation, and then the automated calls if you did not initiate, the activity say, no, this was not me. And that's what I said. Of course. And then when I got home later that night. I check my personal Email and in my Email box was pretty much an Email of the same conversation. I had with the robocall from lifelock. It pretty much said this Email is from the lifelock member services team we detected your personal information being used in our network in the alert type is a new application credit card transaction it lists the company where the transaction was taking place, and it was occurring at three. Oh, three. PM just about an hour or so before I received the call from lifelock, very interesting. So somebody has my Dimity I ended up calling up lifelock at their eight hundred number and actually spoke to a Representative there who pretty much gave me the same information that was already given to me via the recording. Call and the Email, but they did verify that my social security number was used to tame a credit line or probably when it sounds like to me a private label card with this women's apparel retail chain. And it was denied apparently because what I did immediately. I went to my accounts and my credit monitoring service, which I use credit karma. And I notice that there was no new credit up locations or or retailers looking at my credit. So something must have worked. So this is this is very interesting. This is a dynamic situation is still continuing. I'm still waiting for some more information because I really wanna know where this location is. And we'll get more. Onto that. Because they probably in my mind, you're probably thinking this to the they're messing with the wrong guy. Guys, don't think like that do they? So anyway, so here's some steps that that I took a year ago when equifax was breached last September two thousand seventeen are actually paying dividends right now in that are protecting my my credit and protecting my identity to appoint. So what I did a year ago, documenting all the phone calls and all the contacts that are making with these different companies trying to figure out what what's on a work best for me. And in decide do I want to identity theft monitoring service. You know, do I want a credit monitoring service. So I figured I'll try lifelock in so I signed up for their middle program, which is which is pretty good, and it's low cost occasionally emails, and obviously get the phone call when there's alert which just occurred. And what I also did I opened up a credit monitoring. Account with credit karma. And so with credit karma. Would that does is allow me to go into my account with credit card ending time? And look at my credit report for free and some people say, you know, you if you do that you really don't need an identity theft Monnet monitoring service like lifelock because if you decide to go in and check your credit periodically. Anyway, why do you really need identity theft monitoring service? So I sort of disagree with that we leave very busy lives is kind of hard to always figure out. Okay. Maybe once a quarter, I should go in and check my credit. You know that that's very difficult say on that routine. If you can do that. That's great. But in this case lifelock contacted me, and then that preceded a chain of events which allowed me to start going into credit karma looking at my credit accounts. And then start going into the actual three credit bureaus and calling them and see if they saw any activities. So you're probably asking me. Well, what how come nothing happened? Well, a year ago after the equifax data breach in septem-. Two thousand seventeen not only did I opened up a lifelock identity theft monitoring account with them open up the credit karma credit monitoring account. So I can look at my credit report. And but what I did too. Is that I contacted all three credit bureaus and I froze my credit with each credit bureau. So in that case, it's basically what happens is that. I received a pen from each of the credit bureaus in over the phone. And by the Mellon, these pins. You gotta keep into safe place because you need use them at another time. You'll be required. It at a later time. If you want to what they call thaw or Refrees, your credit, your your credit. So the cost of freeze or all your credit varies by every state, but generally runs from free to disappear dollars for each credit bureau. So this is this is a small price to pay because this is probably what really stopped the bad guys from from -taining credit at this apparel store. So which it should also do is contact. The institutions where you see the fraudulent activity in this case of the bad guys got through. I would have seen a line item on my credit report showing a suspicious account those open at this women's apparel store. So you would you would contact them immediately. And then you continue to contact again at that point if you see suspicious activity, go back to the credit bureaus and issue a fraud alert on each suspicious activity, so you notify each credit bureau of any activity or personal information that you don't recognize on your credit report. So it's recommended to do this before the credit reports arrive in order to limit any further damage to your credit because you're that's on affects your credit because you're probably not gonna pay that Bill. The Bagai isn't going to pay that Bill either. So follow it with any additional information activities as you may receive from places like your lifelock account or the police in this case of you defile a police report. So right now, everyone's really asking. Okay. Skipped as you follow police report yet I have not because right now, I do not know. Where the crime was committed. Now, I know it was at this name brand women's apparel retailer somewhere in the United States. Lifelock is working with that retailer right now to get me that information, so I can't follow police report. So I have not been able to do that yet. It is in the middle of the holidays. So there's a lot going on. But believe me, I will do that. Now one other thing that you should do to have not done this yet. 'cause on the fall of police report, I, but you really should have this happens to you. Call the social security administration fraud alert hotline because they need to know when your identity has been compromised, especially if your social security numbers been used without your permission in this case is part of an identity theft scheme. The social security administration's fraud alert hotline is one eight hundred two six nine zero two seven one that's one eight hundred two six nine zero two seven one. That's very important. You report anytime that your source social security numbers been used without your permission to obtain credit and also you can contact the Federal Trade Commission. They keep. A database of all identity thefts at eight seven seven FTC help and is eight seven seven FTC health. And I'll put this information in the podcast notes. So you guys can have that end and just to let you guys know as well after you completed that you should probably also contact your banks in any credit card companies any financial institution to to let them know that there there's been suspicious activity reported to you where someone unknown to you is using your identity and social security number to obtain credit. So the the banks and credit cards will put an a fraud alert in your file to to help protect you. Now, what's really important is that you follow up with each one of these institutions everyone of these line items that we just spoke about on the list in the podcast notes. But what's really important is that you continually follow up and see what the status is. So for me on Ghana follow up with lifelock on a follow up with credit karma to on a follow up. With my three credit bureaus and have my credit frozen right now to make sure it is still frozen. I don't want any any funny business. I do not want any surprises on the follow. Lifelock. Once again, so I can figure out with the retailer that had these bad guys in their store trying to ten credit under my personal information. I'm gonna follow with them too. So I can follow up with the police department in that local jurisdiction to make a police report. Because I wanna see you these people are, and I want to share that information with you because it's very important strangely enough been in the fraud business as a lot of, you know, for over thirty years never had my identity stolen to this degree. I've had credit card numbers stolen, more than once probably two or three times never had my identity where my social security numbers been used to chain credit, which is very interesting. So there's two things that are our reality today. Folks, the Rayleigh is is at companies big companies. It is a matter of time. It's not if it's win their don't have huge. Data breach in when that data breach comes one day your personal information, no matter what you do. Personally. No matter what you do to protect yourself. That information. Once a big company gets data breach. Your information's out there to Kremlin community to do. What ever they want with? It is incumbent upon us to do something. Now right now to stop that from happening on a personal level. I can't help the big companies like equifax breach in two thousand seventeen or Marriott, which was recently breached, but I can't do things to protect myself. I know that another company in a matter weeks or matter of months zone, be reported of another big data rates. But it's something that we can do in his within our control and power that we can protect ourselves from bad guys that breach into large company. So do something to protect yourself. Do something proactive so that the bad guys don't get a step ahead of you. But just know that the rally today is your identity will eventually get compromised data breach. Rally is that you need to do everything in your power to protect yourself and protect your your financial situation at all costs. Just remember these steps that we went over today. And thank you very much. Everybody for coming to the show. This been a short intro into my life of being hacked, my dentist been stolen quick steps about what to do to keep talking about this ongoing basis is a dynamic situation ongoing on keep you a prize of every situation that is occurring with the police. The investigators lifelock the fraud investigators at this retailer or the bad guys went to obtain credit with my identity, you will be the I know when something happens, please go back and look at and what you have done to set things in place to protect your identity and protect yourself from the bad guys. Everybody have a great day. Thank you for joining the show. Be sure to follow us at Rooney bad guys day on Twitter at ruin bad guys day on Facebook. We're on YouTube right now right now, we're we're looking for sponsors, including. Great sponsor with more VPN services. Please take a look at that link to their website and special right now will be at the bottom of the podcast notes. And I hope everyone had a great holiday, and we'll talk to you real soon. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to go in a bad guys day radio podcast with skip Myers. If you liked show, these tell your friends and colleagues, you can learn more about us and ruin bad guys date hot call or visit us on Twitter and Facebook at Ruina at guys day. Join us for another episode of Ruina bad guys day radio podcast. The information provided in ruin Abed guys day radio podcast is for informational purposes. Only it should not be considered legal or financial advice. You should consult legal counsel or other professionals to determine what may be best for your individual organizational needs.

lifelock fraud skip Myers United States Tennessee Romania equifax Czech Republic YouTube America septem Twitter
Howard Talks to Future Robin About Her Becoming a Self-Help Guru  The Howard Stern Show

The Howard Stern Show

02:26 min | 2 years ago

Howard Talks to Future Robin About Her Becoming a Self-Help Guru The Howard Stern Show

"That word stern show, Robin from the future. In other words, a tell me something inspirational that I can really use in my everyday life. Everyone smiles in the same language. I see what you're saying. In other words, when I'm feeling down, or I feel like I'm not part of society if I smile everyone understands a smile. I'd never sends us more than we can handle. I see. In other words. All right. You're very happy. It's obvious you laughing harder than you ever did. When you were working with me after all this time. It's an honor to have fans around the globe. Right. I know and so Robin. I'm listen. Look, I it breaks my heart that like in a way. I wasn't the highlight of your life. You sound way happier now. Yes, you sound way happier now. But I'm happy for you. I have to say and can you leave us with Robin from the future. Can you leave us with something the most important lesson, you've learned as a self help guru? That wasn't supposed to be funny. What are you doing? Hang up on. Wow. You're having a party Robin. My goodness. Be free. You go. That's the piece of information. My Robin from the future. Know we're trying to. If you want my opinion fraud, and in the future, you sound a little unhinged. So you became a let let's understand what happened to you. The show ended we're you became a self help guru, you learn things like a smile is known in every language ride. Everyone's smiles in the same language. Right. And, and I understand you're now married to Benji. What do you mean? Oh, god. You're happier than you know, now and stand that demented laugh. All right. Well, thank you. I hung up on her didn't sound right. Howard Stern show.

Robin Howard Stern fraud Benji
Ad Fraud Economics with Craig Silverman

Software Engineering Daily

1:03:57 hr | 2 years ago

Ad Fraud Economics with Craig Silverman

"Advertising fraud steals. Billions of dollars every year. Buzzfeed reporter Craig Silverman reports on advertising fraud and its impact on the internet in one investigation Craig uncovered a mobile advertising fraud scheme in which four people stole millions of dollars perhaps as much as seventy five million or even seven hundred and fifty million. We don't know the exact numbers, but they did so by serving advertisements to automated users on mobile applications the scheme worked as follows a shell company called we purchase apps would by legitimate applications from legitimate app, developers then the new owners of this legitimate application would record the behavior of the real users on those apps. So imagine a trivia game where somebody has developed a trivia game. Some people are downloading it. Some people are using it. And the trivia game has monetize with ads. This company. We purchase apps would buy this real legitimate app. From those creators who have made the trivia app. And then they use the behavior of the users on those apps to train models of fake users who could replicate that behavior. So imagine somebody purchases this trivia app from the original creators of the trivia app. And then they record the user behavior, and then they train machine learning models based off of that legitimate behavior. Now that you've got a user model you can just spin up as many fake users as you want and those fake users are going to consume advertisements just like real users. Then the new owners of this trivia app would earn all the money generated by displaying ads in these apps. This is a very simple scheme. It's easy to pull off it did not require much sophisticate. Nation in terms of engineering or business skills, and it took place across many many mobile applications. If a group of four people can generate tens of millions of dollars how much ill gotten capital is being generated by large corporations that are deeply involved in the advertising market Craig's article went viral, and he has followed it up with several other pieces about ad networks fraud investigations by Google and the potential for mobile apps to be used for large scale surveillance of Americans by the Chinese Craig is the most dedicated reporter covering advertising fraud today. His work is invaluable because he's asking difficult questions about the economics of our internet. As we discussed in the episode. There is currently no effective means of automatically detecting bought from a human on the internet consider the ramifications of this. We cannot detect who is about and who is. A human we've discussed this in detail on previous episodes about advertising fraud, the advertising industry is a whole advertising analytics and the various techniques of ads fraud ad fraud is not the fault of any one party. There is not a big bad villain. That is orchestrating all of the ad fraud. It's an emergent result of the way that our internet is set up, and it's as hard to imagine a world without advertising fraud as it is to imagine a world without Email spam. I really enjoyed talking to Craig, and I hope you enjoy the episode as well. Triple bite fast tracks your path to a great new career take the triple bite quiz an interview. And then skip straight to final interview opportunities with over four hundred and fifty top tech companies such as dropbox Asana and read it after you're in the triple bite system, you stay there, saving you tons of time and energy. We ran an experiment earlier this year and software engineering daily listeners who have taken the test are three times more likely to be in their top bracket of quiz scores. So take the quiz yourself anytime, even just for fun at triple bite dot com slash sl daily. It's free for engineers. And as you make it through the process triple by. We'll even cover the cost of your flights and hotels for final interviews at the hiring companies. That's pretty sweet triple bite helps engineers identify high growth opera. -tunities get a foot in the door and negotiate multiple offers. I recommend checking out triple by dot com slash S E daily because going through the hiring process is really painful and really time consuming. So triple bites saves you a lot of time I'm a big fan of what they're doing over there. And they're also doing a lot of research. You can check out the troll bite blog. You can check out some of the episodes we've done with triple bite founders. It's just a fascinating company. And I think they're doing something that's really useful to engineers, so checkout. Triple bite, that's T R I P L E B Y T E dot com slash S E daily triple bite bite as in eight bits. Thanks to triple bite and check it out. Craig silverman. You are a journalist with BuzzFeed, welcome to the show. Thank you. You investigated a large advertising fraud ring that stole tens of millions of dollars, and we'll get into the mechanisms of the ad fraud ring, but I wanna start with why you found herself researching advertising fraud. How did you get into that subject? Right. Well, so it started close to two years ago, and my background is that I have been looking at different types of digital deception immediate pollution for a while. This is sort of my my beat in my focus a lot of that has been around online misinformation. So completely false stories spreading on Facebook. Another platforms trolling campaigns bots, all the different ways that this new medium varmint, we have can be exploited manipulated. So as you know, at the end of two thousand sixteen was of course, writing a lot about a political misinformation. Did a lot of reporting bear not only twenty sixteen but long before that. And then as we got into twenty seventeen I was sort of casting about and saying, you know, things are so messed up their world. So they messed up and people started telling me you need to look at advertising you need to look at ad fraud. And I had I had no idea really what was going on with that. And quickly realized oh, wait a second. People are stealing billions and billions of dollars. Nobody is going to jail. People aren't losing their jobs. The industry has just seemed to have come to accept it. And for me as a journalist. I just look at that. And you say we'll there must be tons of stories. They're in nobody's writing about them. Because you know, while some people, of course in the industry do care. There's really been no scrutiny about it from the press, which just blew my mind. And why do you think that is why hasn't there been scrutiny from the press? Well, I think there's probably a couple of factors. So one is that it is a technical thing. And for journalists to kind of get up to speed on it, and then to be able to go and find the really. Good interesting stories that can actually breakthrough and have a larger audience care about them. That's tough. And to have a newsroom that's going to give you the time to do that also difficult everybody in newsrooms are overloaded journalists about two thousand media jobs disappeared in the last couple of weeks in North America. So I think there's that tricky element of the technical stuff and the time to get up to speed. And then also making people care about it. How do you how do you talk about this in a way where people care the fact that, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars might have been stolen from brands brands aren't the most sympathetic thing in the world. So those are all reasons why for coverage choices people don't focus on it. And then I think the other piece is that. Of course, we have an industry press a trade press that covers marketing and advertising, and they would you would think they would be the ones to do this. But they don't tend to do investigative were they don't tend to really dig in and reveal the CD stuff going on in industry. And I think frankly, of course, they have to run events as part of the business model. They need to have relationships with vendors. So if they're going out there and calling people out and making things uncomfortable for vendors and other people in the industry. Well, that's that's a bad thing for their business. So, unfortunately, I think there's a few factors that have made. So that journalists aren't really looking into it. And so that level of scrutiny isn't getting applied on top of, you know, some of the industry thinks that happen. What are some of the ways that advertising fraud, manifests? There are a lot of different ways. And one of the things that I've come to understand is that, you know, people whatever new technology is ruled out whatever new ways people can bid on ads whatever new advertising formats fraud follows sat in if the money flows into it fraud, follow set so on a basic level. You can have scenarios where somebody sets up a website where they just they copy content or buy some cheap content put that on it. And then they either create a Botts or pay for bots to go and visit the pages where they have ads on there. So that's basic kind of ad fraud. Where you know, you've you've created kind of fake low called in media. And then you've created a or purchase a simulated audience to make sure those ads gift viewed. So that's a really simple level of it stuff. That's a little more complexes in these real time bidding exchanges where you know, a website or an app is making inventory available for brands to bid on in place. Their adds up on sometimes people are going in and they're pretending to be say, BuzzFeed dot com, or they're pretending to be the Wall Street Journal and somebody thinks they've bought an ad that is is running on one of those, you know, known properties. But instead, it's actually, you know, just just running on a completely fabricated website. And so that's another way where it's called spoofing where people are pretending to be real media and pocketing the dollars. And so you know from fake media and fake audience. You get so many different kinds of permutations and another one that I wrote about recently, just, you know, pick nother type out is called. Attribution fraud. And so a lot of mobile app makers, you know, they they wanna drive installations of their app. And so they go out, and they they'll pay what's called a bounty. And so if you through your advertisement, it get somebody to install, you know, say Uber than is gonna pay you be, you know, two dollars three dollars something like that for that. And so you have a bunch of apps that once they're on somebody's phone. They're looking to see if people are downloading other apps, and they're they're injecting their own kind of attribution for saying, hey, I caused this person download onto their phone you need to pay me out. And this is a rampant practice the story. I did recently was about a a huge Chinese developer of mobile apps. Coach heat immobile, which you know, several of their their apps were according to data that we were shared were engaged in that kind of attribution fraud in Google actually ended up removing one of their apps completely from the store, and you know, that investigation continues win ad fraud occurs. Where's the money? Actually being stolen from who is losing in this equation. This is one of the things that is kind of wild about it. I mean one the ad fraud is occurring because there are so many different middlemen in the placing of an ad. There was an example done recently where people tried to kind of figure out the way and add up place on a well-known website business insider, and how many people touched it on its way there, and it's incredible. How many people are trying to take their cut in their peace? And that complexity is what creates these opportunities for the fraudsters. But at the end of the day, even if there are, you know, five six seven different hands seven different middlemen from somebody trying to place in ad till it actually ending up on the site at the end of the day. The people who are losing the money are the advertisers are the brands, and so if you're a company like PNG who spending, you know, one of the biggest advertisers in the world, you have to think if you're gonna spend a billion on advertising, you're probably gonna lose somewhere between fifteen and thirty percent of that too fr. And you're not necessarily gonna know that unless you go, and you are rigorously looking through all of the places that your ad showed up. And so you can imagine that's a herculean task for an organization to do. But at the end of the day. It's it's the brands the brands are losing their money. It's getting stolen because they're the ones spending to try and reach people. Right. So I think one analogy we could draw is how in the two thousand eight housing crisis. There was a huge network of different securities that were being sold and repackaged and resold and repackaged. But ultimately, the person who got hung out to dry was the owner of the real estate who had taken on some sort of debt, and they they really got damaged and the same thing is happening to the brands where you have all these middlemen of agencies and ad networks, and we would need an audio book length podcast to actually dissect they spaghetti of different players in the. Advertising world. But the end result is that the brand is the one who is suffering. So why aren't the brands rebelling at this? Yeah. Well, is so to a certain extent they are. And I think we've seen really over the last two and a half years brands demanding more accountability for where their money goes. But it is it is wild to think of how many years they just sort of accepted. What was being told by them by their agency or the other partners? They were working with that. Oh, yes. You met your campaign goals. Congratulations. You know, everything went well. And so, you know, they are agitating for more. There's an industry initiative called ads dot St. which is requiring websites and soon hopefully mobile apps to kind of disclose which networks they work with. So that people can compare and not have spoofing happen. There are other industry initiatives that are happening. And then you have people like for example, the chief marketing officer of Proctor and gamble did. Give a speech. But a yeah. Year and a half ago where he talked about the murkiness at the industry where he talked about the theft that was going on. And so there agitating, but here's here's the thing about this this industry, the digital marketing digital advertising industry is set up in a way where there's so many incentives for people not to report fraud for people to continue to allow it to happen. It is so completely messed up, and you would wonder okay note, you'll brand wants to lose their money. They want to reach the right people. But let me give let me give an example here. So I did story at the end of twenty seventeen and I looked at a bunch of you know, seemingly reputable digital publishers who had all decided to go out and buy audience. So if you're, you know, reputable digital publisher, you're not supposed to be doing that. You're not supposed to be paying somebody to funnel audience to you. You're supposed to built a brand of people come to maybe from your Facebook page or other things, and so they had all decided to buy this cheap traffic to sort of see if it worked on there. If these people they were buying came back and the the traffic turned out to be fraudulent. And so we expose that we expose the publishers that had been buying it. In one case. One of those publishers had bought this traffic and directed into the sponsor content from a major Bank. So you would have to think the Bank would not be happy about this. The Bank would go to the publisher and say, wait a second. You know, we paid for for real people to do these these sponsored stories, and instead you go out you buy cheap, traffic and you throw at at it to meet our our metrics to make the campaign goals. And so I- informed. The Bank of this. They were very grateful. They looked into it. But at the end of the day, they didn't actually want publicly say, yes, our partner had ripped us off here. They didn't wanna do that. They gave me a statement where they actually claim that sponsor content that identified having received. This traffic wasn't actually part of their agreement. And so so this is a case where clearly, you know, something completely improper had happened. But they publicly do not wanna call it their partner. And I think the reason is. That if you're that CMO, then you've got explain to your CEO, why you entered into a partnership that ended up like this. And then they're naturally gonna question. How much of your other spend is being wasted. How much of your other spend is going to fraud or you know, or misleading things. And so everybody wants the budgets to continue. Everybody wants to get their big budget from the board from the CEO, and they wanna be able to spend it. However, they can. And if suddenly everybody loses confidence in the ecosystem, whether it's boards and CEOs to other people than the money's going to dry out. So even the brands themselves I have seen cases where they don't really wanna rock the boat on this. I mean, I've heard that in that case, you know, there is obviously some negotiation talk behind, you know, behind the scenes, but in terms of a public calling out of this. They didn't wanna do it. And I think that's a really big problem that exists in the industry right now to present a nother tortured analogy, sometimes think of this kind of like climate change where you see an. Not to get into like a debate about climate change. But you see these isolated incidents where like you have gigantic fires in California. Or you have these tremendous storms that are occurring. And you look at these things you'd like this seems abnormal and this seems somewhat disconcerting, but it's really hard to quantify. What is going on in the macro picture, you know, with regards to climate change, or you know, or forget if it's humans or not or whatever just like what's going on and advertising fraud, kind of feels like that where you see these isolated incidences where like the reporting that you do which is why it's important you uncover these gigantic fraud schemes that are conducted by four people. And you're like, oh my God. This is concerning concerning, but you have no way of knowing the scope of it because how would you even crawl the internet for for the scope of it? And that's why you know, you see these these estimations like oh nineteen billion dollars is going to be lost to advertising fraud. And these are. Are such unscientific quantifications. Do we have any way of knowing how much money is being lost advertising fraud? I think that nobody knows the real number. It's wild isn't it, and this is such a crazy thing because the promise of digital marketing was supposed to be the ability to measure the ability to reach the right person at the right time with the right message and know, whether you reach them all of the tracking all the analytics this was supposed to usher in a new age of marketing. And instead we have just oceans of garbage data and an insane amount of fraud. And I think the promise of digital media has been squandered. And so do we know how much is being stolen? No, I think you know, I talked to people all the time and what's the percentage of digital ad spend. That's that's the you know stolen, by fraud. While if you talk to people in the industry, you know, who are who have an interest in kind of making it seem like it's not such a big deal. They talk about numbers where it's like, oh, it's maybe five percent or less than five. Percent or ten percent at the most. And they put out their numbers to reflect that. And then you have other people you have you vendors who sell technology that they say will protect you the brand from fraud. And of course, they cite extremely big numbers. And so everybody has their own self interests. Everybody's got thrown statistics. Everybody's got throw methodology. And at the end of the day. I do have some sympathy for the brands and the agencies and others because you're just getting whiplash from all the different takes in all the different people with different interests self-interests who are were just messing with you. So I think that's I think that's a huge problem. And you know, the climate change analogy is probably a good one. I do like your financial analogy. I read flash always recently. Which is of course, you know, the the story about high frequency trading in a lot of that really resonated with me when I looked at what was being laid out there where what was going on in high frequency trading with you had people who really understood how the technical elements of stock exchanges worked and. Give it a really quick summary. I mean, they realized that if they position their servers for making orders and for watching the orders happening on the exchange if they precision their servers close to the ones of the actual stock exchanges. Will they can get information before other people they could act on it? And then they could basically take money from people because they saw stuff happening before other people saw it happen. And I think that is a lot of what's going on in ATP fraud. You have people who understand the technical elements of addicts changes of programmatic ad buys all the different things going on. And instead of using that knowledge to be a good player. They use it to export. And they add no value. They just taking money out of the system. They're exploiting the knowledge, and the understanding they have and they're exploiting how Opik and how how many middlemen and how many technical layers are in that infrastructure. I think I think that to me reading that book really resonated. I think you know, the the cancer that high frequency trading was for the stock market. We're. Being that without fraud. Where insiders are really exploiting their knowledge and people who think they're really savvy people who think they're really savvy marketers are the ones who are getting exploited. Just like, you know traders at well-known banks for getting exploited because they didn't they didn't realize that their trades were being seen by by the system. These algorithms before it was getting to the rest of the market, which is of course, why many of the biggest addicts changes are based in New York. Yeah. Yeah. The infrastructure. That's there. It's not a coincidence. I think that you so you see that that happening as well. And you know, there's other pockets of kind of attack as well. You know, the big investigation that you mentioned at the top it turned out that at least a couple of the people who were, you know, at the top of that fraud scheme were actually based in Israel, and there's a huge amount of ad tech companies in Israel, and so wherever you have a cluster of ad tech companies you have a cluster of fraud happening as well. Because that's where the expertise is. And that's that's where all the, you know, the bison the cells are happening. Digital ocean is a reliable easy to use cloud provider. I've used digital ocean for years whenever I want to get an application off the ground quickly. And I've always loved the focus on user experience, the great documentation and the simple user interface. More and more people are finding out about digital ocean and realizing that digital ocean is perfect for their application workloads. This year digital ocean is making that even easier with new node types, a fifteen dollar flexible droplet that can mix and match different configurations of CPU in ram to get the perfect amount of resources for your application. There are also CPU optimized droplets perfect for highly active front end servers or CIC de workloads. And running on the cloud can get expensive, which is why digital ocean makes it easy to choose the right size instance, and the prices on standard instances have gone down to you can check out all their new deals by going to DO dot CO slash E daily. And as a bonus to our listeners, you will get a hundred dollars in credit to us over sixty days. That's a lot of money to experiment with you can make one hundred dollars. Go pretty far on digital ocean. You can use the credit for hosting or infrastructure and that includes load balancers object storage digitalization spaces is a great new product that provides object storage. And of course, computation get your free one hundred dollar credit at DO dot CO slash S, E daily and thanks to digital ocean. For being sponsor, the co founder of digital ocean. Moisy Eretz ski was one of the first people I interviewed and his. Interview is really inspirational for me. So I've always thought of digital ocean as a pretty inspirational company. So thank you digital ocean. Because you are one of the actually I think I'll be completely honest. I think you are the best journalist at covering this topic just because of the depth that you have have crawled down into the muck of this stuff. And I've tried to cover it in in the podcast and just like people don't really seem to care where they don't really seem to understand that just the ramifications of what this suggests about the realities of our internet. But because because you have crawled down those depths, I want to break out the tin foil hats, a little bit earlier in this episode than than I would normally what role. Do you think Facebook and Google have in this ad tech world? Yeah. Well, I mean, these are the eight hundred pound gorillas or whoever you want to talk about it. Now, they have slightly different roles. I mean, let's let's start with Google here. So Google is Google is d- most dominant player in all of digital advertising in every single part of you think about the text. Stack of digital advertising. Google is a player in basically all of them. If you wanna make inventory available for other people to buy it. You can do that through Google if you wanna go to by a mentor, you can do that through Google if you wanna place ads you can do I mean is just non stop. It's n even goes into the mobile world were of course, Google created the Android operating system and Google has the dominant Android app store the play store. Google also has a dominant mobile ads, you know, SDK where if you wanna get ads in your mobile app. Well, you can work with Google to do that. So they are everywhere. They're up and down the chain. And of course, if you accept that fraud is a reality. Which everyone does they disagree on the depth sedate it goes to? But if you accept the fraud is a reality, and you understand that everybody along the process from a brand deciding to spend its money to that at getting placed in Anapa on a website everybody through that process makes money if you realize that Google is every can potentially be at every step of that process. Well, then you realize that. Google does make money from fraud a hundred percent and Google has teams dedicated to ferreting out. They've done some good work, exposing some things, but there is a tension at the core of Google's operation whereby, you know, stamping out fraud would actually, you know, take billions and billions out of the ecosystem in probably would affect their bottom line. And so, you know, one of the discussions in the industry that happens. A lot is Google trying to walk this time of you know, carrying about fraud and trying to stamp it out. But also at the same time making money from it. There's were Google sits. And it's I mean, it is is a huge huge impact that they have on on digital advertising. Which is why senators like Mark Warner are really looking at that saying like do they have two dominant position Facebook a little bit different Facebook. Obviously people buy ads on Facebook. And and those ads I think for the most part Facebook's a pretty effective advertising platform and Google or Facebook. Rather also has anad network with people off of Facebook. So similar to Google ads sense with Facebook, you can sign up to Facebook audience network, and you can monetize your app, and you can monetize your website with them. So there we have Facebook with a dominant platforms where the people are where they can serve as to them. Facebook also has different ad products. Where even if you're not on Facebook, you can help earn money through and so again Facebook earns revenue from fraud. Anybody who is owning money from from digital ads being placed is earning money from fraud. And so they have a huge role, and they both, you know, talk very good game publicly about carrying about it. But they are in a conflictive position because if fraud was completely wiped out that would affect both of their bottom lines. And it's a really tricky position in it reinforces how the incentives in this industry are all screwed up in when flavor in which this is not like the two thousand eight crisis is that there is so much. Legitimate value being created by these advertising systems. I mean ads really work for some businesses in some contexts, but you know, one thing that you cover in in your article about we purchase apps and fly apps, and this network of four people that made, you know, between probably seventy five and seven hundred fifty million dollars something like that is that there is this this I call it traffic laundering, where basically you have like some legitimate traffic. And then you also have some bought traffic, and you train the bought traffic to look like the legitimate traffic such that it becomes almost indiscernible who is real and who is fake, and you funnel so much real and fake traffic through the systems that becomes impossible to discern who is real. And who is fake? I mean, it's it's a Wild Thing. This is this specific specific attack people often refer to it as a recorded attack where you know, they're they're recording the behavior of actual real human users. On a website and a mobile app. And then once they've gathered that and they understand where the users coming from what time of day are they you know, in the app, how long do they spend where do they tend to click all of these things, you know, one realize that when you're using an app you've probably given permission for them to completely record what you're doing. So people should be aware of that. And then seconds because of that because of the permissions that we hand over because of or on the case of a website because of the good open protocols on the web people are able to really get down to the nitty gritty and on savory folks have been doing these recorded attacks are not entirely new, but the sophistication of them continues to advance and in his it is such a freaky thing to think that a real human audience was tracked and clone. And then Depp exactly 'have was programmed into boughts to then go and low those apps, and if you think about the ramifications of that, you know, the goal here is one to of course, increase their audience, which increases the amount of ad revenue. They get but to it's to buy. Pass the fraud technology, the fraud detection technology that is built him. And the you know this. This expose is one of the flaws in a lot of the fraud vendors anti-fraud benders that are out there where they're taking kind of data science approach where they're sampling the traffic and saying, okay, here's here's what our baseline looks like a now. Wait a second. We've just got new traffic that is way off the baseline this looks like fraud to me. And so if on the fundamental basis the fraud, the Botts are based on real human behavior, you're going to be able to bypass a lot of the fraud detection that is out there. And it shows you know, how clever and smart a lot of the fraudsters. Are it shows? How they understand exactly how how fraud detection is done, and they build their systems to get around that into a vague that and I think the larger thing here taking out of the realm of add pro for a second is that people need to realize, you know, the the amount of real traffic versus fate traffic on the internet as a whole. I mean, it there are some days where there's a lot. More fake traffic than real traffic. This is the world that we built, and it's it's really a profound in mind boggling thing to realize that you know, on a lot of days of the year. There's more traffic than actual human traffic on the internet and the implications for that in advertising are massive. But also for other parts of things we do every day. Yes. I'm so glad to have found somebody with a tin foil hat size. That is the same as mine. You know, this is like why I've tried to do interviews with some of these detection companies if you look into the episode history, I have done one or two shows bought detection companies, and you get to a point in the conversation where you say, okay. So how do you detect who is real? And who is fake and go. Well, we have this combination of signals, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay. So if somebody makes it through your system, how do you know, that's not just like a false negative or a false positive or or over you you would want to put in. Well, we we really can't tell. And I'm like, so how do you make these guarantees the catch eighty percent of bots, and they're like, well, you know, that's that's what we think we catch. And you just you hit this point of circular arguments. And it's crazy it it's like a it's like a technological dogma where you hit the circular arguments in. It's just like it's like are we living in the same universe? Have you have you encountered these people with this with this cognitive dissonance? Yeah. I mean, it's you if you like me, and your inbox is filled with people putting out press releases about fraud detection, technology and stuff like that. I mean, you you see so much garbage. You see so many ridiculous claims that are coming through. And and so you have you have a real snake oil problem? That's not to say every fraud detection vendor snake oil. I mean on a lot of the stories. I've done I've gone to these companies to see what data they have to compare it against what I'm finding. And this is actually a really telling thing for me is that on any given story. There may be a couple of of you know, fraud detection vendors, who are really helpful say. Yes, a, you know a year ago, we saw that this traffic was coming. We blocked at. Here's what we saw from them. And they they can often share stuff that you can sort of validate input up against what you have. But there are also cases where this is another huge problem in the industry. There are also cases where I might be investigating say particular publisher, and that publisher has paid one of these fraud detection vendors to kind of verify invalidate. It's traffic to say. Yeah, this this site has you know, ninety five percent of real human traffic, you know, and then advertisers feel safe buying it. Well, if I find something that shows there's a problem with that publisher. And one of these fraud detection vendors is basically verifying them saying they're clean that vendor. Wants nothing to do with me. So on any given story. A fraud detection vendor can be extremely helpful to me or because they're being paid by a particular party. They clam up when they won't talk to me. And this is a huge problem where these vendors will take. Money from everybody in the eco system. You can be a brand and pay to you know, to validate a site or the ad slot. You wanna buy you can be a publisher impaired different people to say that your stuff looks really good. And as long as everybody will take money from everybody. There's no one who sitting there and willing to actually call it out. And so, you know, there's some problems with methodology and some companies that are absolutely snake oil. But even a lot of the good ones, they're taking money from everyone. So in any given moment, they may actually be saying a complete garbage property is totally fine. One thing that the I have I've seen is is it I see incentives in place that make it such that Twitter or Facebook would actually want Botts on their platform because Botts consume ads is that too paranoid to think. Well, I mean, I think of course, they would prefer to have real. Human users. Right that that's what they would love to have. But if you're in a case where and I think it's less of a problem for Facebook and more of a problem for Twitter. But if you're in a case where growth is tough, and you're up against huge behemoths with far more people than the tendency to want to, you know, grade something as an acceptable account that might be unacceptable somewhere else. I think that's there. And I think Twitter as we all know has a massive bought problem. It's only recently been starting to address it in any kind of meaningful way. But at the end of the day Twitter wants that was big audience as possible. And so what they consider a bought or not omitted account a policy violation. And what other people might there's probably a big Gulf between that and the reality. Of course, is that bought Stu view ads. And if they want people doing ads, they're going to earn more money if they're more Botts viewing it so again. Yeah, we have this incentive problem where you know. I I know there are people at these platforms who every single day wake up and try to rid. Rid this stuff from there. There's no question about that. But then there's the business case the business case is, you know, get away with what you can cause you revenues kinda crow, and there is a big debate happening right now about the numbers that Facebook releases the numbers that Twitter releases where they estimate how many fake accounts or bought or what have you are on their their platforms and the numbers, especially with Facebook. The numbers have been growing a huge amount. And yet Facebook isn't really acknowledging that the problem is getting worse with Twitter. People have always suspected that their monthly active user numbers the stats that they put out have included a lot of really garbage counselor automated accounts. And so there's a lot of skepticism about that. So again. Yeah, we've got this scenario where I think they would all love to have real human users. You know completely. But also there isn't incentive to allow a certain amount of bots to exist. There's a strong financial inset will about Twitter versus Facebook. I kind of think that the only reason. We think there are more on Twitter than Facebook. Is that Twitter is this open world where you're you don't have as much filter bubbling. But like in Facebook, you know, you have these isolated communities like people don't actually see everyone else on the platform. That's why Twitter is more fun in many cases. But you know, Facebook has these isolated communities of people where if you're not if you don't have a close connection to them like if there's eighteen degrees of separation between you and bought you're never gonna see that bought. So we don't really see the full picture of Facebook as often I think that's true. Yeah. And this is one of the biases that journalists and a lot of researchers have which is at Twitter is a more open platform. You know, you can get information from its API you it's better for for researching. It's easier to research, and so yeah, we have this kind of level of scrutiny on that is probably unwarranted given the amount of people who are on it compared to Facebook. Facebook is much more of a black box, and they're actually becoming more and more. Peik because of the Cambridge analytic scandal. They're turning off a lot of the API of the things that were previously available in open to you. And so it is hard. And it's also I think a lot harder to identify a bought on Facebook than it bought on Twitter and I've worked at doing both. I went down crazy rabbit hole last summer where I thought I had come across a really massive bought net pushing out, hyper partisan, political content, but when I got down to the user level and started to figure out if these to real people are not the crazy thing was that. I would figure out that. There was a real person with this with this name in this location, in some cases, I had Email exchanges with them or phone calls with them where it was usually older people were like, yeah. You know, I just use Facebook a lot. And and these were folks who would in the span of five minutes, just hit the, you know, the reshare button like thirty times it looked like automated behavior, but they were actually real users. There is something about behavior on Facebook. I think. And I'm trying to really dig into this more particularly around older users with their behaving in ways that do not see. It's really weird. I know I've seen it at an I at it that way because I think a lot of people can relate will literally like I've seen it in relatives. You know, you. See your older relatives sharing this insane stuff? Like this like, aren't you the elder like don't you have like a sense of this being completely fabricated? And they don't because they didn't grow up on the internet. Yeah. And I think a lot of us. I think a lot of us are struggling to adapt to this new media world really is different. And as much as I'm kind of interested in trying to figure out how much age is a factor or not I think all of us are having cognitive difficulties at times to really deal with these streams of information in all of the sources and information overload. But it does seem like particularly for for older folks, who are trying to grapple with this. There are certain behaviors certain things that makes it seem like, it's it's, you know, a, particular difficulty or even more difficult for them. And I would also caution against the suing that younger people are always, you know, naturally, great with this stuff. I think they to need some of the skills to navigate this world. And it's going to take us a long time to adapt to this. I think that's the bottom line for me is it's it's not just like, you know, you get used to using Facebook using Twitter. It's a very different way of consuming information and the consequences of that. I think are still yet to play out. This podcast is brought to you by wicks dot com. Build your website quickly with wicks wicks code unites design features with advanced code capabilities. So you can build data driven websites and professional web apps. Very quickly. You could store and manage unlimited data you can create hundreds of dynamic pages, you can add repeating layouts make custom forms call. External API is and take full control of your sights functionality using wicks code API is and your own Java script, you don't need HTML or CSS with wicks codes built in database in ide-. You've got one click deployment that instantly updates all the content on your site and everything is SEO friendly. What about security in hosting and maintenance wicks has you covered. So you can spend more time focusing on yourself and your clients if you're. Not a developer. It's not a problem. There's plenty that you can do without writing a line of code. Although, of course, if you are a developer, then you can do much more you can explore all the resources on the wicks code site. To learn more about web development wherever you are in your developer career, you can discover video tutorials articles code snippets, API references and a lively forum where you can get advanced tips from wicks code experts. Check it out for yourself at wicks dot com slash S, E D, that's wicks dot com slash S. E D. You can get ten percent off your premium plan while developing a website quickly for the web to get that ten percent off the premium plan and support software engineering daily, go to wicks dot com slash S, E D And see what you can do with wicks co today. Now, we've been talking mostly about logged in experiences. So, you know, if you're on Facebook or you're on Twitter or even kind of on on on on Android, in many cases, you're engaging in a logged inexperience where there is at least some identity information associated with you. But there are these other cases where it is. It is more of a logged out experience. So like when adv fraud takes place on the open web. It's even more of a wild west because there's there's kind of less signal for these companies to potentially filter out who is about and who is a human and in this in this fraud investigation that you did one part of it was you you the set of fraudsters. I know we're not really delving down into the story as much as I would have liked. Maybe maybe we'll we'll talk about that a little bit later. But people can certainly read this the story that went viral that you wrote and all included in the. In the show notes, but the fraudsters they operated the several web properties where they had fake video advertising. Can you describe how the fake video advertising on the websites like just just to give people another perspective into how one of these schemes works described the fake video advertising websites? You know, there's there's kind of two flavors actually that have come out recently. So one in in the story, I wrote were the guys they had like over one hundred and twenty-five, Android apps, and they also have these websites as you mentioned where you know, basically, these these were websites where there was like nothing there. They had just licensed the content from from some content providers. Just put them up, and they copied and pasted the same about text on every website or they plagiarized from. Elsewhere. There wasn't really a real audience on them. Like, I think what happened is they bought the audience and then cloned it. And then, you know, and we're showing them video ads and the reason for. Jio adds such a big thing is, of course, the CPM's hire you earn more money for showing a video to someone than you do showing a banner ad and in the case of the video stuff. I mean, these were just video plays that were being logged as having happened. You know, the users looked real enough that it was being allowed by the fraud detection companies, and these guys were just racking up insane amounts of video views, you know, some of the some of these video sites where if you looked at them, you would realize no one would go to the site. No human would go to this site. Is there is really nothing there except this really silly generic celeb- content in some of them had insane amounts of bailable adamant, Tori, meeting that you know, they were claiming to be serving, you know, millions of impressions day to users this sort of exposes one of the fundamental problems where you have all of these brands deciding to pay for data, science driven detection. But literally if they sent to human visit these sites they would realize they would never want to advertise on. But because so much is done automatically in programmatic. -ly am because the. Looks great great because it's engineer to look, right. This stuff goes through. And the second example here aside from what what those rosters for doing. It was a huge fraud scheme called meth dot which is actually resulted in multiple indictments and two guys being extradited to the United States, and they're trying to extradite some others, but one of them is in Crimea. He's he's not going to extradite. And so in this case these guys actually built kind of a fake web browser so a headless web browser which is often used for testing another things they built a web browser that would just make it self appear in the ad systems. As if it was a real website with a real audience serving up tons of video, and they basically just created this fake web browser that, they loaded on tons of different data centers and ran like crazy, and it just ran tons and tons of ads, and they earn millions and millions of dollars. So they didn't even actually need to set up. You know, much of a website even less of a project. Than the original the other fraudsters. They really just built this clever web browser that fabricated everything about an audience and everything about a website. So that people would actually think they were getting ads in front of real people. It's it's wild. You know, if you have the technical expertise the things that you can get away with a really remarkable. And I say that as a cautionary note, not as a how to anybody listening to this right and just to to give a little bit more context on this this business that you covered this four person, at least for did you do you think it was more people think it was just basically four guys that they were running this business? So there were four guys at the kind of the top of the pyramid. Two of whom had a background in digital advertising and two of whom had actually run like an ISP in Germany. So you can you can see how the technical expertise came together. But in order to actually execute the fraud. They did at times higher different people to do things like, you know, go out and license the content for those video websites. They worked with people to go out and acquire. Real apps that they could then move into the fraud scheme. So the four people were the corvettes, but then they would have contractors and other people working with them at different times. But the design of the system inmate of the business really came down to four people to steal potentially hundreds of millions of dollars. And I mean, you know, if you think about the amount of people and money they needed to invest in this to get up and running in order to earn that much. I mean, it's that's diminishment business. That's the prob fraud is a really good business. It's it's it's easier to start an ad fraud company than to start a startup, basically to my mind. Absolutely. So not to give the entrepreneurial listeners any ideas. One thing. I like about the story is is is how much of a story. It was. I mean opens with this person who gets approached by this company. We I think it's we buy apps a ha- a repurchase. We imagine. You're a developer and you make some random app in the app store, and it catches some some, you know, viral. It's like, you know, you you create the next flappy bird and somebody comes to or you create like even something as much worse than flappy bird, like a workout app. Like, this is your ABC crunch app. And then somebody comes to you and says, hey, you know, we see you. You're kind of popular you've got like thousand daily active users. We wanna buy your app, and and you're like, all right. Sure. How much you gonna pay me? And then they offer you much more than you anticipated. And you're like, well, yeah. Sure. Also, you my app, and then they you know, so we purchased apps buys your visor app. And then, you know, they take your thousand users and they record the the behavior of those one thousand users, and then they they spin up fifty thousand bots that replicate the thousand real user behavior, and they sell a bunch of ad inventory on the app is that how it works. I mean that that that was a good it in a nutshell. And the interesting thing is, you know, these apps word that they were buying. None of them were in most cases, with one exception. Now that we're we're particularly like huge big hits. And. Fact, that's that was what they targeted. They wanted apps that manage to build like a small fairly loyal following that looked like real people that had positive reviews that had been around for long enough that it had a bit of a reputation in the play store in other places, and then they would approach these people. And so these were apps that they could buy for, you know, ten gram fifty grand whatever and the person created it would be really happy because for them. It was a small little business in they have to maintain the thing. And now they get a big cash payout and they walk away. Whereas for these guys once they got the apps they had an operation in Serbia where they had Android developers. Tons of people who could then maintain the apps who could update them put in the you know, the right ad networks and things that they work with. And so they started to create this kind of scale where they had, you know, dozens and dozens of apps, and in a lot of cases, I had an analyst from our bites analyze a bunch of the apps, and he found that you know, they they started to kind of create templates within the absence. Shelves. There would be the core functionality of what was often game. But the rest of the stuff for ads serving in all of that they pretty much cloned that. So you can see how they created efficiencies. But it's wild for me to think, you know, you had the four people at the top. But they did actually have this business that that had a website and look like legitimate business that didn't ploy a bunch of developers and other people to maintain these apps, and in some cases, they also developed new ones on their own. And so it was a wild operation to think that you know, they came up with this solution of like, well, hey, rather than trying to build our own apps all the time growing audience, let's just pay money to get apps with real audiences. Let's clone them. And then it's then it's just like you turn up. The dial you turn up the dial. You double the audience you triple the audience, quadruple the audience, and this was one of the things that some people got onto them for. So I actually did a follow up story early. This year about a company in Israel called woobie that these fraudsters had approached and wanted to to help place ads. In their at their apps with and so we'll be did an initial due-diligence. Everything looked okay. And so they had these apps in there, and we'll be only works with games. But after a little while, I don't know six months or so we'll be starting to be a little bit suspicious because these apps at weren't very high quality that weren't really good games. Suddenly their audience and the amount of of ads that they were showing to their audience was really out of whack for their experience, rather games. And it got to a point where some some of the fraud vendors were starting to flag some of the traffic in these apps. There was one vendor in particular called protected media who started saw what was going on early on. And we'll be eventually told three different. I think it was three or four different companies that had these apps that can't work with them anymore 'cause 'cause there's fraud in them and woobie didn't actually know that all of these companies were connected. They were different shell companies that these guys had set up to put different absent to gloat into ad deals. And the only way woobie actually got onto things in the end siphon the fraud. Was they sent out a message saying, hey, can you? Want to send you a gift for Christmas? Give us your address and these four seemingly separate companies all sent the same address. Which was you know, basically, I think it was in Malta, and it was just like a shopping center or a business center. It wasn't a real address. And they realize these four companies that they'd have some fraud problems with where all the same. And that's when they cut them off. And so they were smart in a lot of ways. But then they messed up, and I was able to really expose them because they had made stakes like reusing the same about text on their websites. Like reusing the same address for different shell companies and other things that was able we were able to connect all the stuff together. And you know, the end of that story with rubies that when we'll be kicked them out. And so we're not working with you anymore. These guys actually sued them. So you have fraudsters who feel so emboldened that they will sue accompany even though they've been caught with their fraudulent inventory. And that case was only resolved at the end of very end of last year in part because of you know, me having exposed what was going on. They didn't pursue the case anymore. And so I mean that to me is a an example of the industry there where the links go to set all this up. But the fact that they would even file a lawsuit after somebody caught them and try to get money from them it like, there's no fear. The fraudsters have no fear. You know, just give people some context on these apps. I think if I when I when I scroll through the spreadsheet the you link to in your article of the apps, I mean, there isn't element of humor to this whole story. And that's actually one reason I really liked covering this area because it's kind of ridiculous. But you look at these apps, and it's like selfie expert. Pro Plummer mania minesweeper like somebody's playing minesweeper on there. I mean, there are I'm sure there are guests the restaurant quiz the logo trivia game. And it's like, you know, I know that you, and I probably would never download these things. Maybe I would want the grumpy weather widget over the gluten free food finder. But you know, you've occasionally. Maybe your thanksgiving and somebody like hand you their phone on the rare occasion where you actually see somebody else's phone. I don't know about you. But I ran I carefully. Like, I'm just like what why are you downloading this stuff like this? So don't wanna download this. This is a bad idea. People. Just don't know. They don't get it. Because it's like, you know, we remember back in the day when you know, you download the toolbar, and it starts sending you pop ups and stuff, and those people are still around the people who are making the pop-up toolbar are still around there just like a little bit more savvy. And that's what this stuff is. That's literally the case with this scheme two of the guys ran toolbar companies before they moved into mobile apps. I mean, that's exactly what they did. They moved from that world of ad fraud to this one. And I mean, the app scenario is really I mean, I've probably used the word insane a lot so far. But but what's going on particularly in the Android? Ecosystem is absolutely insane. The amount of malicious invasive ad fraud committing apps that are in the Google play store with tons of download. And out there and available to people is completely out of control. And I mean, we see examples of this all the time. I mean, some of the worst offenders are flashlight apps every phone comes with a flashlight now, but somehow there are flashlight apps in the play store that claim to have like hundreds of millions in some cases of Adam pressures available everyday for people to buy as if people are using flashlights that much, and it's just such a clear example of fraud. But they're they're they're in. They're available in the store there vailable in places like even Google's own addict changes and they're not being cleared out. And a lot of these apps are also taking insane levels of permission to the point where they can see everything you are doing on your phone and people are not paying attention to what they're downloading. They're not paying attention to the permissions they're giving and in a lot of cases not to sound too much like I put on an even bigger. Tinfoil. Hat a lot of the biggest app companies are Chinese companies. And and this is not a an anti Chinese no say the issue here is that the Chinese government requires company. These to make their data available for secure on Intel reasons whenever the government asked for it. So you have literally hundreds of millions of people all around the world using Chinese made apps that take insane levels of permission that have huge amounts of data on you. And that data is literally being shipped to China where the Chinese military and security and intelligence apparatus can have free access to it. I mean, this is what is going on. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. It's one hundred percent happening. How is it that they're Asian anybody else? Reporting on this like, it's it's so shock the app stuff gets more attention and China right now is a big topic. But I don't think the app element of China has really been appreciated people are focused on alway and device and a quilt makers. And so I do think we're gonna see more reporting on this this year, particularly on the China stuff. So what about Mark Warner? So this is the Senator who has been vocal about advertising fraud. This is one of the few senators who. Seem a little bit more technologically savvy. What's he said, what are his actions revealing? So Mark Warner. I gotta give him, and it was actually a letter that he and and Senator Schumer sent back in two thousand sixteen before everybody became obsessed with Russian disinformation tactics as resulted the two thousand sixteen election, the US they send a letter to the FTC saying we are concerned about the prevalence of digital advertising fraud. We are also concerned about the dominant position of Google in. It you need to look into this. And then everybody kind of, you know, got distracted by the things. But when I did my investigation of that that big app fraud scheme in last fall. Mark Warner did send another letter the FTC saying you need to look into this end. And because Google was referenced very much in that story, he said in you really need to look at Google's dominant position. And then when I did the story about cheetah mobile, the Chinese ABC company that was committing out fraud and also taking huge amounts of permissions data. You know, he again, you know, said that a we need to consider Chinese mobile. Abc companies a potential national security threat. And so he is really the only one in the US government who has raised any kind of alarms about this. And unfortunately, his efforts to get the FTC to take this on have completely gone nowhere. You know, he's he's actually been very clear vocal to me in saying that they've basically ignored his letters. They've dismissed him. And he's unhappy about that. So we're gonna see what happens this year. Whether you know, there's going to be more scrutiny of Google, whether the FTC might look into that. I mean, I think right now there's probably more of a chance at the FTC looks into Facebook than Google. But Mark Warner in his office seemed to be very focused on at fraud and also on potential data and security risks from Chinese equipment and out makers. So I mean, I'm hopeful some movement might happen this year, what are you working on? Now, what kind of stories so I do have some more affect wines in the hopper. I mean, I could literally right about every single day, you're the glove challenge. Which I. Yeah. This is it. I mean, it's that big of a problem in. It's not getting. Scrutiny that that party wants to do that every day, but it's really hard to find stories like, we're we're, you know, general site, we have an audience that is not a technical audience and that is not an ad industry audience. And so I have to finding samples where the average person hopefully understands the stakes and feels like there's something affecting them. I'm continuing to look at sheet a mobile, I'm continuing to look a lot at you know, the Chinese app companies not just because of the security stuff that's going on. But also, you know, they've actually been quite successful. They have a lot of big apps in these stores, and it's interesting to look at the permissions, they take in that kind of thing. I'm also very interested in just you know, some of the scams that are out there like so a couple of weeks ago. I wrote about how people are renting out their Facebook accounts. I'm so why would somebody rent out a Facebook account? Well, people ran out their Facebook accounts to organizations who want to then use their ads account that you you have attached to your face. Count to run ads for often very shady products like skin-care scams, and you know, Pena's pills, and that kind of thing. And so I'm looking more into that of how you know average. People are earning twenty bucks a week hundred bucks a month to give some random person total access to their Facebook account, and in some cases, total root access to their laptop. And the router, you know, for for one hundred bucks a month in order to let these people run shady ads, and this is something that people are doing out there. And it's it's insane. And so looking at that and and trying to figure out who's behind. This is the thing right now, we'll creek Silverman. Thank you for coming on the show. It's been really fun talking to you. And I could not be a bigger fan of your reporting. Look, I really appreciate it. I appreciate that. You know, you've done several episodes now, and that you're helping to put some awareness out there as well. So thank you. Go CD is a continuous delivery tool created by thought works. It's open source. It's free to use. And go CD has all the features that you need for continuous delivery. You can model your deployment pipelines without installing any plug ins. You can use the value stream map to visualize your end to end workflow. And if you use Cooper netties, go CD is a natural fit to add continuous delivery to your cloud native project with goes CD on Cooper, Netease. You define your build. Workflow? You let go CD provisions and scale your infrastructure on the fly and go see the agents, use Cooper netties to scale as needed checkout. Go CD dot org slash s daily and learn how you can get started. Go city was built with the learnings of the thought works engineering team, and they have talked in such detail about building the product in previous episodes of software engineering daily, though, works was very early to the. The continuous delivery trend, and they know about Qatar delivery as much as almost anybody in the industry. It's great to always see continued progress on goes CD with new features like Cooper, Netease integrations. So you know, that you're investing in a continuous delivery tool. That is built for the long term. You can check it out yourself at go CD dot org slash S. E daily.

fraud Facebook Google developer Twitter Botts engineer publisher Wall Street Journal Craig Silverman Craig
SYSK Selects: How Wine Fraud Works

Stuff You Should Know

52:54 min | 1 year ago

SYSK Selects: How Wine Fraud Works

"At IBM problems inspire us to push the world forward. That's why so many people work with us on everything from city traffic to ocean plastic smart loves problems. IBM The M. Let's put smart to work visit. IBM DOT COM slash smart to learn more the future of phone services here in it's called visible for forty bucks a month all in you get it unlimited data messages and minutes. I'm Verizon's four G. L. Te Network visible doesn't do annual contracts and unlimited data means unlimited. They also don't have physical phone stores so you don't have to deal with annoying sales people. Are you ready to learn more switch to visible than divisible dot com slash stuff to get twenty dollars off your the first month of service. That's visible dot com slash stuff. Happy Saturday everyone. This is chuck from stuff you should know and welcome to my select pick for the week. This is from October. Fifteen thousand fifteen and it's called. How wine fraud works? I selected this because it's been a minute since I've listened to it and I love wine as you you know and I hate wind fraud as you probably know as well so let's learn about it together. Welcome stuff you should know. A production of iheartradio's how stuff acquire off into the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Thurs Charles V.. Chuck Bryant and no no hand. That coffee smells good. You want some have now. I'm fine but it just I. I just love that smell so nice even though I don't drink much coffee. Oh Yeah I'm with you in just delicious man sometimes go to a department store and just walk through the fragrance I'll and smell the coffee samples. They haven't thought you're going to say you'd lingerie and just brush up against things after the coffee club so after the coffee sniff is done. I can't smell anything anymore. Outing me man that's creepy. I'm sure there's weirdoes out there. Who Do they give me? There's probably websites dedicated to it. I'm fine you like why love line. How do you know chuck that the wine drinking is actually the wine you think it because nobody nobody bothers to fraudulently rip off Fifteen dollar bottle of one not too. Yeah Yeah there is a off famous in the world of Wine Fraud Watch people okay from TESCO. which is I think? It's just a straight up like supermarket market in Britain. That's all that actually. Yeah you're right and there is Louise's dough which normally goes for about fifteen pounds selling on sale for five pounds. That's good deal. But and one of the guys who purchased it contacted some people who are into wine and said. I think this is phony because the label looks like it's a photocopy so if if somebody was doing knock off Louis Shadow which normally goes for not that much and sold it to TESCO who is in turn selling and this is a huge thing and there's a big the big debate even still unjust. How widespread wine fraud is? It's really difficult to get to the bottom of because there's so many people people who have their fingers in this fraudulent pot whether wittingly or unwittingly either way are unwilling to admit that it's as extensive visit is or the people who are burned are making a bigger deal out of it than they are th- than it really is because they have the money and the context to get. CBS To do a story on how they got burned by buying fake wine. So it's not entirely clear how widespread it is but there have been some really great very famous almost proven stories yup of outright wine fraud. But it's a pretty new phenomenon Well if you think ancient Rome is pretty new. Let's hear well that's ever. Since there was wine people were making fake wine or trumping. Trumping it up as something other than it was so the the newer practice like you can divide it into two things. There was an ancient Rome. They were doing stuff like this. And adding unlike led to wind to sweeten it while they were killing people But then there's the new practice of like. Hey this is Thomas Jefferson bottle of wine right and you can buy it at Christie's auction for one hundred thousand dollars and it's really not that at all. Do you remember back in the eighties. I think Reuniti was adding eating like windshield wiper fluid or something. Yeah it was. At least in urban legend more. Recently there was something added to wine to make it sweeter. That was really bad for are you. But I don't know I can't confirm if it was that case or this is specifically reunion eighties and it again. It could have just been urban legend because at the same time that there were spiders eggs Exim bubble yum Sure yeah that was a lot of like a consumer The panic I think it was the golden age for urban legends. Yeah agreed read And you know we need to do one on wine period. Yes this is so us. Yeah we'll do episodes on everything but the actual thing and then we'll finally finally get to the thing And we also probably do a completely separate podcast on wine tasting because hand. That's a really league bitter pill because There are some people who say there really is no difference in these wines and there have been numerous occasions over over. The years were jerks have set up wine tasters to fail by just switching outlines and saying this is a really nice bottle which it's really crappy and they say well. This is lovely. The TANNIN's are really coming in. It's Jamie and full and they're like you're drinking two buck chuck People love that stuff. It's a big bone of contention with wine drinkers and also people who liked to Pooh Pooh that right And say it's all subjective and you're all snooty and either release no difference but there really is a different slow slow okay so there is a like you say. There's there's a big debate over that right. Yeah but if you if you dive into the world of high end vintage wine collecting yes. It is very It's like an oral Boris. Right that snake that eats its own tail. Right in that the people who are in charge of judging whether something's real or not are basing that on their previous experiences variances which may or may not have been inexperienced with the fraudulent wine. So even if you can tell the difference if you've only been exposed who's to say fraudulent eighteenth century wine then when you are asked to judge a bottle of like eighteenth century wine you're going to compare it to that that ultimately coming from the same counterfeiter you will be like yes. This is the real thing because I've had that before and it tastes like that will. Yeah and here's the other other thing. Is there there is vintage Appropriately aged wine that is tastes great because it has his agents such a way and then there are these super old bottles that apparently tastes like candidates. Paradise is the the note that it brings out and these don't taste that good. It's just the fact that you can own it and show people right. You don't even drink it in most cases yes he don't drink at Jefferson wine. No you have it in your collection. So say ooh look at Mike Election. Exactly that's the whole point. A lot of people refer a lot of people. That's the whole point own this bottle owning in a piece of Thomas Jefferson and you get to show off and and tell people how great you are exactly. So that's how a lot of wine counterfeiting has gotten away with because the people are never going to open the line exactly so whatever. Tampering you did with the seal is never going to be discovered They're never going to taste the wine Ryan inside so it could be two buck chuck or whatever won't see the Cork. Yeah and they're just they're just happy to have this thing and their status to elevated to the point where they don't really want to know if it's a counterfeit so long as they can walk around and tell people right. This is Thomas Jefferson right. Well we we should go ahead and start talking about bill coke. He is One of the other brothers He is not Charles. David Coke of the famous Republican coke brothers fame billionaire Supporters of the Republican Party. Yeah yeah sure they actually saying. That's like the nicest way to guide them. It really is. Yeah it is He is the brother. One of the brothers who've got out along with another brother Not another brother brother from another mother they all the same mother right right okay. Yeah he got out of the family business and said you know what a billionaire. I'm GonNa what I'm GonNa do is trying to start collecting really rare and expensive things numb one thing. He has is a gun collection. He owns. CUSTER's rifle billy. The Kid's pistol bill does he. He owns the gun. That Killed Jesse James. Oh I'm sorry as Jesse James Pistol and that gun and that guy what was his name. Robert Ford Yeah good movie boy. Was it beautifully shot as well. Yeah wider rifle DOC. Holliday's rifle the vintage guns ends a lot of very famous works of art like original Picassos and monets right. Exactly he sounds like excuse me And he also owns Is this article. Says several hundred bottles of what he calls. Moose piss calls. Ah Well. He's saying that for all he knows what's inside. He got very famously many many times. Yeah and he has had many many lawsuits over the years. That have come out. This guy's love suing people out. Sure he does what he calls dropping subpoenas on people. Oh Yeah Yeah. He's he's people almost recreationally he drops subpoena on their head. Yeah let guy. So he he bill coke again very famously. He's probably the most famous ms victim of wine fraud. Because he sues everybody he possibly can who may or may not have sold them fake. You're really takes it personally. And he really goes after people and he did a lot of media about this too so he's very famous for this any brought in some wine experts and said here are thirty thousand forty thousand bottles of wine than I have in my sellers. How many are fake? and they took a random sample of three bottles He you kidding me no. They said Yeah exactly they like. We'll bill you for this yeah. They took a random sample of three thousand bottles and it yielded one hundred hundred thirty fakes so I mean he has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds by by extension of fake bottles loads of wine in the cellar and that was actually. That's about on par. With what the average none necessarily uninitiated on initiated or uneducated wine buyer but fervent vintage wine buyer would have that about four million dollar seller after about a million of. It will be on fakes yet. He supposedly spent close to five million dollars on fake wine over the past quarter century Including some of those Jefferson's that will talk about In a lot of this wine came from A man named Rudy Kurniawan. ooh That's good stuff. It's even better than I had in my head. Would you have Kurniawan Coney Island I like that. One is good And this guy was one of the most famous Really alongside another guy. That will talk about one. Of the most famous wine fraud dis- fraudster fraudster counterfeiters counterfeiter's counterfeiters of all time and he was sentenced to ten years in prison and supposedly was to pay close to fifty million dollars in damages which is easily what he made by selling fake wine jer into sales in two thousand six he made thirty six million dollars. I selling fake wine. What a jerk? And it's easy to sit back and defense team use this in court to say these are rich. Sky Like no harm no foul who cares very ripping off the rich. Yes very easy and I even found myself kind of thinking that but at the end of the day who you. It's wrong it's wrong. It's wrong share. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't sell counterfeit bottle of wine. Yeah it's wrong it's illegal and it's it's gross in just because you're ripping the rich. It's not like he's Robin Hood and giving that to the poor. You didn't have the idea that he was doing that. No plus I'm I'm Dave Ruse. Who wrote this made this point but I take issue with it that ultimately vintage counterfeit wine fraud effects all wine drinkers? Because that stuff trickles down. I don't think that's true because from reading this there to really great long form articles that this this article was partially based on was in the The New Yorker and one was on Vanity Fair and both of them were totally. Were three agreed but just from. I'm reading those. You get the impression that those are two very different worlds that a world of like just regular wine appreciation and vintage wine collection. Yeah form of ven diagram that just barely overlaps and that one really does not affect the economy The economics of the other. So if there's a bunch of counterfeit stuff going on in the vintage wine world. It probably wouldn't drive up prices for the wine that you're buying. That's you know ten years old tops. Yeah so I don't think that's necessarily true. His point that we all shoulder the burden that counterfeiters to because these two worlds are so divorced. But even still like if you were a Black people are losing money and reputations are being built up and lost. Yeah you know I get that pay. Well let's take a little break and we'll come back and we'll talk about the two ways that you can generally go about trying to fake a wine Hey Miles. It's Me Jack Right here right next to you next to me. Yeah just like a work. Hey I wanted to join. I'm with you to tell people to tune into a very special episode special up yeah of TD. This is actually look. I know you saw saw the social media is at the Elliott. Oh she said what are these two juggernauts podcasting doing their when Mazda calls me up and they say miles. We know that you're a loyal oil Mazda owner we want to align with you Because you get it yet you know what. I'm willing to answer the call and help Ding help people understand the power or of it so we did is. We actually got to record a special episode inside the new Mazda. C X Thirty where we talked about kind of like flow states and feeling alive how we feel alive. What makes us feel lie? Yeah it was really doped actually record inside the car I got to press buttons and make them mad because they're like please don't fumble around in here but I I said I'd like to explore nonetheless if you actually want to check out the first ever see X.. Thirty check it out and Mazda. USA DOT COM slash IHEART. Or if you're trying to check it up I why are eld them pull up to the local dealership today. All right we're back. We're drunk on wine so drunk. I wish what's your favorite wine My favorite winds are big bodied. California Cabernet is generally not specific. Like winemaker. If that's what you're asking the There's no wrong answer. Yeah no it. Was that funny. Because it made me think of fat bottomed girls that Queen saw big body California. Yeah my head and I laughed like again. I like really full bodied wines zinfandels and Cabernet yeah. I think California's he is just. They're they're doing it right. You know. They say petite. Sarah's the Rodney dangerfield of the wine world. I've heard that so if you're GONNA go about faking a wine you There are two things you can do. You can either fake the wine inside a real bottle right or you can fake the bottle with real wine real. Yeah and it's all real wine different vintage maybe yeah but like it could be like a really nice nineteen forty seven wine right that you say it's actually from nineteen eighteen fourteen or even nineteen forty one could be within a couple of years on whether it was a good year. Yeah good point or if the if there's the scarcity of it that kind of stuff and actually bill coke makes a pretty good point. His whole thing is he wants to have I think one hundred fifty years of Lafitte or some some house like every single vintage that they released of every single varietal over the course of one hundred and fifty years which is extremely damn vicious sure and he said it's easy to get the really prized ones because those are the ones that like people saved and all that right right he said it's the mediocre years old. Hold that nobody bothered to say this drank through the bottle or just didn't keep it right. Those are the ones that he has the most trouble finding or they did skeet shooting. They just had the right. Servants showed up in the air with shotgun. That's what they do richie rich's Well you make a good point too. Because Colonel Allen although he dealt in the super high echelon blonde he would also take a two hundred dollar wine and fake it to be like a thousand dollar bottle of yeah he did it both ways. Yeah he would he would take out he would take an old old bottle legitimate real bottle put in his own mix of wine in cork it again and make it look like never been open. Yeah or like you said he would take take just say a forty seven feet and mess with the label the make it. Look like a forty-one Lafitte which would be worth ten times. What the forty seven laffit would be worth right and clearly? I also want to point out the thete is obviously the only fancy wine that I'm familiar. Because that's my Go-to so if you guys Ezzor out there and you're getting the in person I know what I'm talking about as far as wine goes you have been duped. Well you're not a big wind guy. You're on record as such. I like wine. I'm definitely not a wine guy. Yeah exactly yeah And I'm not wind guy either. I'm I'm at the very I'm wind guy in the bear since the word I like really good wines going to wineries but I'm certainly no like I'm not saying I have some amazing pallet. I can't pick cout vanilla notes and things like that. I'm just like man. This tastes really good bottle of it and I tend to fall into that camp where I'm certain that there are people out at their literal taste. Makers who can tell the difference between wine. Sure and. I've had wine that I didn't like before I've had wine that I do like But but I I fall into the camp where I'm ultimately like. It's it's whatever you appreciate hierarchy. There doesn't need to be a two thousand dollar. Our bottles not necessarily going to taste as good as a twenty dollar bottle right that that the whole thing is just about individual enjoyment and kind of snobbery associated with it to me misses the point. Yeah here's my deal. As I can really tell the difference between what I consider cheap wine and like a decent listen bottle or a good bottle but that's where my tastes level maxes out. I can't tell the difference between a two hundred dollar bottle and a forty forty dollar bottle. Okay but if you gave me like a six dollar bottle right yeah you you can taste the difference between that and like a twenty dollar bottle. Yeah but even then if that's what you like this would would you like I'm not going to. It's just not what I want. You know like caveats there so we were talking about Rudy. Kay Yeah and how to. He faked wines and he was he got real bottles correct in general and made his own wine concoctions. Here's what this suited right to get to the point where he could even counterfeit yes. He got his hands on real stuff and he ran up some serious serious bar tabs. That's why he was doing. There's very legendary story of him hooking up with this guy who was the head of wine sales sales at a a an auction house called Aker Merrill they factor in big big time into this guys. Accent Yeah Rudy KS counterfeit ascent not wittingly necessarily but they. They let him use their reputation Asian to build his own but he did it by duping him by throwing these crazy parties at like restaurants and having like two hundred around Fifty Thousand Dollars Tabs picking up the tab himself but then after everybody left going to the staff at the restaurant being made me every single one of those bottles right and they go. Oh okay it's your wine. That's weird not enough to make mention of it. But it was odd to them. His big thing was that he did it at the same place over and over again. Yeah so they did start to notice but while he was doing this he was also collecting wine to really expensive vintage wine and there was already a market it for but it didn't look anything like the market that he built almost himself. He drove the value of vintage. Wine up almost single-handedly buying up as many bottles of old stuff as he could and while he's doing that he was building his reputation he was making connections and he was getting his hands on legitimate intimate wine that he could use to resell now that the market was up at a higher price after he'd already consumed at say like a party And one thing he was doing that tipped off some people early on was like you're saying he was buying off years of good vintages great vintages to where there was one guy. Is Jeffrey Troy was his name. He's a wine merchant and he said he was buying these could bottles of French Burgundy but they weren't great. They were off years and it was just if he was a collector. It was just weird right to buy these adamant about buying because he could get them cheaper and fake them easier exactly like he just Kinda smudge the the year and all of a sudden. It's a much more expensive vintage. Yeah so he's he's driving the market up. He's buying legitimate intimate wine. Apparently he's taking out loans that he defaulted on to to build this reputation and so when the market hits he starts counterfeiting thing and there was one story that actually was pretty prominent in the vanity. Fair article where. He was apparently confused. He thought what. And there's no way that any of us would have ever thought this but he thought that a pond so close saint. Denise was the same the thing as the Christine pond so close saint any right. He was way off so it turns out that he figured that pond. So Oh made this wine in Burgundy in the forties because Christine pontso closing denise made this line in the forties turns out right that the regular regular pond so the very famous pond so family made their closing Danny starting in the eighties so he actually got found out. Because if this one mistake this led to his unraveling and he was going to auction or sell about like ninety five bottles of the stuff those overtly counterfeit it it had never existed which also said a lot about the collectors at the time to sure you were paying for wine. They've never even heard that. Didn't exist strictly. Because does these these people were attached to it. Yeah it's pretty amazing it really is and that's how he was able to get away with it for so long because that dinner. The Guy Pond so himself itself. The Guy who is the proprietor of the vineyard showed up at that dinner flew from Paris to New York to be at the dinner to make sure that they didn't auction off those those things because he knew they were counterfeit and Rudy k still was left to just keep going for years after that. Yeah because because of reputations since well unlike you said he'd built up this reputation which is a big part of it You have to be a true con artists. You can't just go in there right And say I've got all lease Jefferson winds I'm I'm Chuck Right. You know you have to be known in the community it takes a long time and they have to rep right. You'd have to think you have money real money. which he did no he borrowed it all? Well I thought he came from money. No that was an all. Well you had money at one point. He borrowed on now but then he made a lot right so think about this. I think he defaulted on a three or four million dollar loan and then another one or two million dollar loan and then he also borrowed privately relief from other like wine collectors that he knew. Yeah but even still say he borrowed ten million dollars that he defaulted. He made tens and tens and tens more millions. Thirty four million dollars in one year just from two sales. Yeah and he currently is appealing his conviction on the grounds on that The when when he was arrested he was arrested on his front porch. The neck searched his house. Yeah and they said you can't do that. They got the search warrant. Aren't afterward and he said you can't do that there should. I should have never been search really and it's looking like they're saying now you know what they had reasonable Doubt Filter exactly. So I don't think that appeal is going to go anywhere but this is as recently as like this year. I think he sold appeal. Yeah but he got ten years. That's right yeah ten years man so he got caught and got caught right hand red handed. It sounds like and the people who were attached to him that help build up. This market definitely suffered some things to their reputation but are saying like and we had no idea. We trusted this guy. We were duped to and to their to their merit. Eker Merrill Offered like Money back that guarantees on anything that was considered found at least fake and paid up on it after one auction. Well one of the guys coke is suing as Can't remember his name but he's supposed supposedly. I didn't know I was selling you fake wine. Like I got duped right. And he's saying no you knew so they're trying to prove right whether or not this guy actually knew and so. That's that's another part of that debate. Where how widespread is this? Who knows what? Yeah and WHO's like. How far do you go back before you find? Find the person you did it right. So we'll talk about one other person who allegedly did it right after this break Hey there it's Jonathan Strickland from tech stuff. Be sure to tune into a very special episode of tech stuff that was recorded inside a Mazda. C X thirty at the L. A. Auto. Show where I discuss. All the INS and outs of human centric design. While you're listening be sure to check out the first ever see X.. Thirty at Mazda. USA DOT COM slash. IHEART or better yet to see the entire Mazda vehicle lineup visit your local area Mazda dealer today. Hey Friends we WANNA talk to you about the future of phone service because it is here and it's called visible yet for forty bucks a month all in you get unlimited data messages and minutes on Verizon's since four G. Lt Network and visible doesn't do annual contracts. They also don't do shady hidden fees or foot long phone bills either when they say forty bucks a month they they mean forty bucks a month yeah when they say unlimited data that means unlimited data. They also don't have physical phone stores. That means no waiting in lines or dealing with annoying sales people with visible. You can sign up by a new phone or bring your own device get helped. It's a tap away via chat text or tweet and get better phone service. It's all from their APP or website without ever leaving your couch. Yep So are you ready to learn more switch to visible than head divisible dot com slash stuff and get twenty dollars off your the first month of service and exclusive special offer just for stuff you should know listeners. That's visible dot com slash so check. There's another man very famous man in the wine world. His name is Harry Hardy rodenstock but I don't believe that's his real name. His real name is what Meinhard Girka. What a name? That's his given name. But he goes by hardy rodenstock in stock and has since the seventies and he to be a truly great wine counterfeiter. Not only. Do you have to build up a reputation as rich and willing to crack bottles of ridiculously expensive Historically valuable wine at parties sure where there's wine critics in auctioneers wine experts But you also so have to have a certain love for wine I think Rudy Kay definitely love wine. Yes but they all have but yeah and Hardy Rosenbach definitely initially does too and apparently there's there's a big question about whether he is one of the better wine mixers on the planet who rodenstock. Yeah Yeah because that's that's a real job where someone will work at a winery and they'll take a little bit of this and that and then all of a sudden you've got there. Yeah they're they're they're blend some blends are better than others. Apparently rodenstock a master blender if he is in fact a counterfeiter this article on how stuff works makes makes it sound like bill cokes hired. FBI FBI gun closed the book and like it's done but it's never been proven in a court of law that rodenstock actually Was this counterfeiter interfere. And he's he's still denies. The allegations the circumstantial evidence is pretty pretty substantial. Yeah I mean I think the only reason is because he refuses to come to America to go to court German but there's no criminal prosecution civil as far as I understand. Yeah I think that's the case. So he was a former music zinc manager and He think they're making them. There's a book called the Billionaires Vinegar about this about the Jefferson wines so interesting that they're making a movie with Makaay of course. Oh Yeah Bill. Coker Hardy rodenstock plan or does he just kind of like wander around In the background. He's the winemaker man. Yeah I'm not sure who he's playing actually but It was a big book and it was about the famous us Jefferson wines and basically the deal is Thomas Jefferson as we. All know was way into wine into France big francophile profile and he had either bottles in his collection or he had his own vintages. Well Thomas Jefferson mines and a very famously. The Harden stock was routed out. Allegedly I guess. Do we have to say that as faking these Jefferson bottles yeah He would force. You know you're supposed to spit out when you're drinking wine tasting. He would he would. I don't know about forest but highly encourage his guest swallow right so they would be drunker by by the time they get to the real good stuff at the end which is again. So it's unusual the force your guests to drink rather than spit out the wine at a tasting party and it's also unusual to bring out your best stuff at the end because everybody knows your palate is saturated and you can't really tell the difference anyway well if you've ever been on a wine tour and got it like several wineries you definitely the last liner. You're like give me a case right. This is great. Yeah so when. He's throwing these parties in these tastings again again. He's invited is very smart to invite wine. Experts wine critics wine journalists a bit. It is an event and again all these people. I think that this dude is just this eccentric extraordinarily rich dude who is literally opening to drink and share with them as wonderful that these these people who are peons compared to this man. He's such a great man because he's open to seventeen eighty seven bottle of Thomas Jefferson's wine and he's giving me a glass. Ask about it I gotTa Talk About Hardy Rodenstock. So He's very smart move surrounded himself with the people he did. Yes so historic was he said He claimed that he found a batch of Jefferson bottles behind a brick wall in a Paris Presient basement that he still hasn't revealed where this is a little suspicious and then if you already got all the wine out of there yeah exactly. And then he and he went and sold a lot of these. People like coke in Chris Reforms and other billionaires for Hundreds of thousands of dollars per bottle about one hundred and twenty about. Oh Yeah it's it's a ton of money and They were fakes and it was all it all came down to a little matter. Punctuation which is hysterical. The Me Yeah Yeah. The Thomas Jefferson Bottles Well first of all. He kept really meticulous records because he was so into Wine Jefferson. He did yes so on. The bottles chuck said it was engraved T H period capital J. period right supposedly Jefferson when when he wrote his initials it'd be t h colon capital J. period so that fatal flaw of the matter punctuation is what gave him away away basically. Yeah well not a colon. There's a larger question too so the idea that Thomas Jefferson would have his bottles. Engraved was based on a letter a verified or five letter. It was an order that Jefferson placed for French wine on behalf of himself and George Washington. which makes these bottles even more amazingly awesome? Because because they think well these came from an order that Jefferson place there were also in George Washington's shipment as well and that they they needed to be separated out by initials. But if you step back and you think wouldn't go in in grave all the bottles just mark the crates that the bottles came in this crate. Great goes to George. This crate goes to Jefferson because he was ordering it by the case not by the bottle so the idea that the bottles were being grave also dubious ascending of itself sure but Monticello historians are like number one he. This is wrong the way that this is in grave. It's not how he would have done it. And secondly there's no records in all of we have the records for this era and there's nothing in there about these vintages being in Monticello we're being ordered by Jefferson and then also Once bill coke put his. FBI Do on the on the case it turns out that it's likely that this engraving was was done by modern instruments. Yeah he hired a guy named an ex Fed named Jim mcelroy. Or I'm sorry Jim Elroy and mcelroy to really against the macaroni brothers so He hired this guy paid him a lot of money. I imagined to try and do some digging on this and one of their first lines of defence was There's something called Sesame Dash One thirty seven and that is a radioactive isotope that exists because it's a product of nuclear fission of uranium so it didn't exist until we started doing that before we started launching nuclear bomb explosion tests. Yeah exactly actly Now it exists and you can actually test for this stuff so if you find basically can date something back to nineteen forty-five great however in the case of hardened stock. He was smart enough at least two US wine older than nineteen forty-five so that didn't really help them much. Yeah and I wonder if he's surely he just lucked out. I don't know 'cause I wonder if that cesium test was around. And he did this. Because this he's supposedly found him in eighty five and started selling them immediately. Yeah who knows maybe got lucky or maybe was like any decent really old nice wine to at least try and get away with it so again there's like And then the one other part of the the case against him was that he had tenant once it has family's house who had an apartment near his in the house and in the basement the Tenet it said that he saw like basically tons of empty bottles and stacks of labels and all this stuff which to the tenant meant well well. This guy's for drunk wine right. That's a little more. That's probably what I would think it'd be letting go by my recycling. Every Wednesday your wine counterfeiter it could be So there are a lot of There's nothing you can do about these these old I mean you can have. People inspect them and try and verify them. But there's really nothing you can do is a like a foolproof method But really nice wineries now arguing. There are a a lot of method you can do now for future generations wine fraud yeah for the vintage stuff your Sol. Basically yes. You just have to really trust where it's coming from. Probably hire an expert and maybe stay away from rodenstock. If you're bill coke right that's right. Yeah like you said. The the modern guys are using things like RFID TAGS QR codes. That you scan and it takes you to a website or something microchips. Like you have in your dog yet so you can attract actual bottle. There's also like tamper-proof capsules the that the wine is encased in the bottle's neck that when that's open to changes color if it's ever been open and some actually alert the internet or I guess back home home headquarters. Yeah once it's been open and there's another one that's pretty cool. There's this company that inserts a a specific civic DNA marker into like the ink on the label that can't be counterfeited and that they can go back later and be like no. This is real at the very least. We know the labels bulls real. Yeah in case case he had a bunch of credit card charges for glue and labels in inking he I mean he had a pretty nice trail of evidence vents behind him yeah. I'm sure it's not very smart with it. Well I mean if his apartment was just a counterfeiting factor and then lastly check the one of the pieces of evidence that there's a Lotta people point to when they say that Wine fraud is a big deal. Is ebay bottle. Yeah you can go on Ebay and spend one hundred bucks on a empty bottle that if it weren't empty would go for a thousand or ten thousand or whatever and the idea behind it of course. Is that somebody's filling it up and putting it back on the market counterfeit. Why would someone sell that? That reason to make a hundred bucks on a ten thousand dollar bottle of wine sure some people love money. I know it just seems like a lot just people who buy that kind of wine. I don't picture them going on Ebay and running auctions over it's all it makes. You wonder also like those are people who are just working at a restaurant and we'll that's what it sounds like to me in take that home and put it on anybody serve it throws the Cleans up after the dinner party. Yeah that's what I figure it's going on and apparently a lot of restaurants now because of you guys like Rudy. Kay and hardy roads rodenstock now smash vintage bottles. Once the winds been ordered and junk with with well with a shotgun in the skeet shooting. I got one last thing. Supposedly there were only five magnums of one thousand nine hundred forty seven lift fluor- produced okay between two thousand five and two thousand seven eighteen magnums of nine hundred forty-seven Leflore were sold at auction auction. While that's so easy to can that happen. That's so easy to check when there's only five of something. The argument is that either the guy who works at the floor and did in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven and says no. There's only five magnums then remember because the recordkeeping in Burgundy is terrible back in the day after or that. The there's no will there's so much of a market for counterfeit wine and there's not enough pressure being put on right the people who are actually selling it or allowing it to happen instead. It's just whatever and supposedly now that America's got more and more savvy this counterfeit market. It is moving over to China. So there's like a lot of wealth coming up and not a lot of wind education and people are just getting taken for rides man stuff. Yeah this is a good one man could pick. If you are no more about wine fraud you can take those words in the search Bar Dot Com and I said search chuck. What is the time for all right? Sometimes we pool pool questions from facebook. Answer them so we're doing. This is from Diane Martin. F Martin Central PODCASTS. Cassar essentially what would be called literature reviews and Research Lingo. How do you decide which references to include an exclude us any kind of quality indicators to decide what you will include food especially when they're deeply debated this question? We talked about our research process. I think we try to use. Peer reviewed journals roles. And I mean if we find something on the Internet we try and double and triple check that information No big giveaway. You always talk about as if it's the same exact thing printed a bunch that's usually a sign that it could be. Bogus like Rodney. Dangerfield being in the Scalp in the movie the Scout. But it's still bears mentioning tioning. Sure to mention at the caveat. Yeah we don't find it credible but it's out there because it exists in some form or fashion scientific journals medical journal. Sure I mean peer-reviewed is just a great way to go if you can get your hands on it. I remember this great article called like why science behind China paywall about the basically the car the science publishing cartel but if you can get your hands on on period stuff that's the best stuff to work with agreed. Go ahead. Another question shock for me. This from Shane. Elliot I new and thinking that no. This question will find a special place in Chuck's heart. What are your favorite types and kinds of beers and why do you grow your own beer and somebody else said recently on twitter that you said in the beer episodes that you were going to get in Hamburg? Did you ever two part question for you up from twitter and facebook. Well your they got to do not brew Beer but on the record is really liking as and others a backlash going on now. Why because there's so many of them and people are like beers in the world as tastes like soap? I Love I love anything. That's super happy. Yeah that's what I like our friend Dave job by sweetwater sweetwater and brought us some hop hash. I haven't tried it yet. Have you know but his all. Let's just stood. Yep sweetwater does a great job. And we've always both kind of agreed that About Pale is one of the great all-time great for sure. There's so many great ones bells too hard man. Ben Might be the best ever. Yeah in that Pliny the elder we got Cincinnati delicious. Oh Oh here in Athens Georgia creature comforts Tropicalia of not having religious orpheus brewing Atlanta. Yeah and they make us our her that I tried. That was really really good. I'm not into this hour's have you tried. It sounds like it I loved it now. I don't get sooner weird that I was like good. Yeah it was weird in a good way. Could sometimes we can just be novel. And you're like okay. Try that it's done. This is I mean I. Yeah I don't like fears. I don't either Belgium white now not a fan. All right there's your answer fishbowl. Now I'm thirsty. Jackson bligh other than Atlanta. What are your top five favorite cities each Jeez New York San Francisco Seattle is they have to be American In that case then I'll throw in a Paris and Wanted Camille fancy now see I. I was Hiroshima Japan is a really neat city so Kyoto those type for one of course New York. Sure I like DC a lot too. Yeah it's a great Rome Italy is surprisingly neat surprisingly. What are you kidding? I mean it's a major city and it's packed with people so you would think the city but it also has I mean like you just walking along the a street in all of a sudden you're walking next to like a three thousand year old wall. That's not even part of a museum just built up around it. There'd be like like a fountain on a corner that blue somebody's peeing in a thousand years old. Right it's a very neat city in that regard. Why where else? That's all I can come up with right now. Oh you know what I don't have to fancy pants. It's like Charleston South Carolina one of my favorite great place for Food Savannah Charleston. There's similar yeah yeah. Charleston is blow more refined but also a little more modern. Yeah Yeah I don't fancy pants. Delight cities over seas. No I know but wouldn't wants his parachute. Like yeah the pairs. It is a great time in London. Wins last time. You're in London Like twenty years ago okay. You should go back because London is like a brand new city. Yeah I bet there's something to do at all times now. They have cabs which is apparently the big thing that changed there. And it's just an awesome little town beautiful. We'll maybe we can go on a tour. Yes it's your turn for the question. This from gusts M Parker. Why did Josh grow his hair gusts? There's a simple answer that question because I can't because I realized that I have hair and I'm going to live it up. Well I got it. I'M GONNA go with Gary Riechelmann. What is the the best flavor of Pop tart and there is only one correct answer visit Gary? I think what the answer you're looking for is brown sugar and cinnamon to get one. There's nothing wrong with blueberry or strawberry job as really good as wrong as long as prostate. That's the key. Well here's another key and and here's the tip for you that don't mind clogging your arteries pop it out of the toaster. You're going to get a stick of butter. Rub It on the back the dry side and then around the edges of the other side and just thanking you later. I have not tried that and I actually heard that before from Jessica Simpson when she was pregnant. Oh really apparently just went berserk on the buttered popcorn. You got time for one more. We got a couple of this an unusual one from Michael snively or sniffly one of the two probably sniper if the Bryant and Clark were units of measure. What would they measure mine would probably Oh? I know what mine would be. Some of sweat level units a sweat per square inch or something. That's a good one. Yeah mine would measure the distance between any one place and awesome. Wow has that. That's good. I got one more Chelsea Hamilton. What's the most rewarding thing that stuff you should know is brought to you or allowed you to do? We've done a lot of really neat things that were very thankful thankful for but I'm GonNa just say The live shows. Because there's so much fun. They're a lot of fun and it's fun to go to cities and never been to and it's fun to meet people and get out of this little room This is very rewarding. Very I'm going. Well thanks everybody for those facebook questions. you ever want want to get in touch with us on facebook you can go to facebook dot com slash stuff. You should know you can also tweet to us at S. Y. S. K.. podcast let's handle. You can send us a good old fashioned email to stuff. PODCAST HOUSE IRKS DOT COM and as always join us at our home on the web stuff. You should know dot com Stuff you should know is production of iheartradio's. How stuff works for more podcasts? My heart radio is iheartradio. APP Apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen listen to your favorite show situated on the beautiful Cable Beach Sean. Maher is a spectacular new resort destination in the Bahamas with your choice of three oceanfront hotels. The Grand Hyatt SOS and Rosewood. This this is the place to find your perfect blend of luxury relaxation and a lot of fun. Whatever you're looking for you can find it at Mar.? The Bahamas most exciting culinary. Mary destination the resort is home to over forty restaurants bars and lounges ranging from casual waterside eateries to high end chef driven dining experiences this eleven glorious landscape pools acres of Pristine Beach Front and a soothing. SP SPA offer endless relaxation. While guests find thrills at bomber casino so in array of high energy nightspots and at the royal blue. The most acclaimed new golf. Course in the Caribbean just short flight from the US and a fifteen minute drive from the airport. Bahonar is an easy getaway any time of year to book your next vacation at one of the resorts three iconic hotels and to explore winter specials including up to thirty five percent savings on your stay yes. Thirty five percent visit Baja Mar dot com. That's bomber DOT COM b. a. h. a. m. a. r. dot com.

Thomas Jefferson fraud Jefferson wine Mazda bill coke facebook Rudy Kay Chuck Bryant iheartradio Charles V IBM Verizon rodenstock Cork Josh Clark FBI US TESCO Rome
OCI Feb 16 2020 Insurance Fraud Hall of Shame

Of Consuming Interest

25:00 min | 1 year ago

OCI Feb 16 2020 Insurance Fraud Hall of Shame

"They call for action. Presents of consuming interest. A Public Service show that discusses scams deceptive offers and other consumer concerns. Here's the director of wjla. Seven call for action on your host. Shirley Rooker Insurance fraud. It is not a laughing matter. Not when you realized it costs about eighty billion dollars that's eighty with a BI annually. And that's coming out of your pocket folks. Let me tell you something. Well the good group of coalition against insurance fraud is out there fighting insurance fraud and doing everything can to help educate consumers as well. So we're GONNA talk with Jim Quinn. Today he's the Director of Communications for the aforesaid coalition against insurance fraud. Jim Welcome to of consuming interest. It's so good to talk to you again. Shirley thanks a lot. It's great to be here any day. We talk about. Insurance fraud is a great day. All right because we're educating the public to this in things to look out for look You all do you do something every year and every year. I am constantly amazed at what the Crooks do and you have something called the hall of Shame. I love the name. Unfortunately it's called the Insurance Fraud Hall of Shame and unfortunately it's necessary because some of these people shameless is not the word for them. It's terrible what they do. So let's start out with one One of mine favorites which turns out that If you live in a big house doesn't necessarily mean that You're going to be an honest person or that you are going to be Let's see straightforward. Because one of the your people that major top list was a wealthy woman who lives in Pennsylvania Bucks County I believe and she Tell us what she did. I mean her. Her mansion was burned. Is that right? Well see Claire. Rizzoli was a very wealthy socialite and political GOP fundraiser. She lived outside Philadelphia in the six fifty. Six hundred foot mansion in the suburbs. Fire went racing through her mansion and destroyed a lot of a lot of the inside so she decided to use that Disaster to get herself even more rich from bogus. Insurance claims. She claimed ten million dollars worth of jewelry were stolen by brave volunteer firefighters who are inside risking their lives to try to put the fire out like they have time to go through jewelry box shore. And why didn't she have it in a safe? I may really this red okay. Well that's a good question. We'll never know all that but she. She tried to pin ten million dollars a theft on brave firefighters whose lives are on the line every second when they're trying to keep her asthma burning down go figure and so she claimed all this. What painting art other things in the House that it was twenty? Yes Wow oh yes she she. She had a painter put. This is a large Roman style bureau of her and her family on the ceiling and walls fifty thousand dollars original price. She she turned it into a nine hundred fifty thousand dollar a bogus claim. Can you believe that? Gosh wow well. How did she get found out? I mean with the insurance adjusters who come in an appraised value in this sort of thing are they the ones that got onto her well. The the insurance investigators were very smart. They started going through the They started going through all of the receipts and invoices that these people have provided and for the for the murals. And guess what that she couldn't? She wasn't even spelling. The names of some of the vendors correctly she was forging receipts for inflated claims for draperies for the murals for all sorts of things. None of the numbers and received added up. It was obvious that she was inflating claims. You couldn't you couldn't escape that well and that brings my if she's trying to Jack. Up Insurance companies rip them off. What about the fire? Did anybody ever figure out what started it? Not never figured out the fire Shirley it was just too complicated so they decided not to charge Resulting with with arson they decided they were charged solely with insurance fraud and related crimes and boy did they ever nail her good in fact one of the things that they found in the House that she rented after the fire was a book sitting on a desk and the book title was quote insult to injury fraud and the big business of bad faith. Oh My Gosh. Wow taken few lessons. Wow that that should say at all issue in jail. Yes she she got. A couple of years in jail was not a large status but the publicity was pretty shaming Shaming environment for her. When you're shamed every day by news coverage down stories that's a pretty big price to pay to never be the same again. After that experience in her social standing I bet went plummeted. Okay all right well. Good for her. I mean she got what she deserved. Sounds like now? There's there's something one of the things that really concerns me. Are The gangs that get into insurance fraud ripping off insurance companies and they do it with a number of of different kinds of scams and one of the things that you all have nominated to your hall of. Shame is the slip ring falls. Tell us about what that is. Well the the ring that we're talking about was a New York City. It was one of the biggest slip and fall rings in United States history. Thirty two million dollar attempted rip off of insurance companies by by bogus slips and fault. What what these guys would do. The ring members is they would get homeless people in addicts and and others right off the street. Corners and thrive in with a little bit of beer money. So you know just so they could have somebody to spend and then Convinced them to lie down on the pavement and pretend that they'd slipped had very painful injuries and make very big insurance claims all set that ring members themselves and it'll be honest businesses Asari. He's an honest business early. Who are just trying to make a living every day. And they're being billed for these inflated insurance claims that that had that they had no business being built for it was all a setup fake injuries fake slips fake falls big insurance money thirty two million dollars that raises prices at the cash register. Now did they actually did the ringleader of this and the other members of the gang actually get away with some of the money. This Dr. Alan Carr's a sorry murdering his Co. Candice actually did of course he got away with some of the money. But but you know it was. It was arrested in busted in the ring dismantled before he could take in all the money so yeah he got away with part of it but again the the guy's in jail now paying the price. The tried to recover the money from him. And this guy. This guy even tried to have ring members with giving surgeries to help increase the -ality and the realism of their injuries. That's that's how bad this ring was. Oh my gracious assistance. And they were praying on the most vulnerable in our society to be a part of this. Who probably totally unaware of what was going on these restrict people and I think they knew what was going on. I mean they. They were told to giving a little money. A little bribe money spend. They needed the money many were addicts and so they were told to. Just lie down and coached on how to act injured so they knew what was going on. So you know they're they're just as complicit but you're not gonNA arrest several hundred street people you want to go to the to the head of a snake. Which is Canada's Peter? Calcutta's the chiropractor. Who ran the whole operation? My goodness well. I hope you're happy in jail. Dr Peter Well that is. It's really disgusting. Let's just take a brief pause here Jim to let our know they're tuned in to opt consuming interest. I'm surely rooker. I guest Jim Quick. All He is the director of Communications for the Coalition Against Insurance Fraud. And we're going over some of the most egregious frauds. You can imagine. Now there's another one. A huge ring that was operating in Florida that was using nursing homes and using mentally ill and against st people as a participant in this fraud. Tell us a little bit about this. Well this is what we call fraud. Zillah this is one of the biggest insurance schemes in. Us history one point. Three billion dollar theft of Medicare and money And Medicaid money in south Florida. It was was an absolute beast of a ring. And here's why Fill IS FOR MS. What was ran the ring. He drove a Ferrari. He had a movie star Tan. He was a pig performer up. You know this was. This was sort of the the absolute peak performer of Insurance scammers He ran corrupt skilled nursing and assisted living facilities He had a whole network of Crooks had doctors on the take He had Recruiters take what they did. Is They recruited people again? Many of them off the streets and stuff them into these homes. That often were a little more than than dirty flop-houses they supercharge the claims for for bogus. nursing care services that nobody ever received or didn't even need and the money was just flowing out of Medicare and Medicaid in like a factory. Line it was. Just the money wouldn't stop. It was coming out and gushers you know it reached up to a more than a billion dollars. This guy was even more interesting because his son wanted to go to University of Pennsylvania. It's it's a very elite. Ib School but he wasn't qualified. So what did he do? He took some of the stolen money bribed a basketball coach at Penn to put his son on a list of basketball recruits. So He'd get admitted to the school. Oh this is another thing that the stolen insurance money meant to. Of course. The kid wasn't qualified. He didn't even make the basketball team once. He was illicitly. admitted to the school. So that just shows you another part of how devious scheme really what? Zinni of the money collected back from the sky. Yeah they're working to get a lot of money back. Some a lot of it was spent and you never get all backlash against some pennies on the dollar but at least he got twenty years in prison. Oh good I hope he has to spend every minute of that. I'm there when I stop and think about how this is praying on. Not only the people that he he. He's victimizing some people in using and in this scheme but also he's victimizing you and me Jim. It's costing us in terms of our insurance. I mean it's just that's so awful. It's so absolutely awful. Why tell you one of the worst things in a way that that you have on your your Insurance Fraud Hall of shame was the Sobriety Scheme. This seems to me like this was so evil. I mean they're all evil but this one was particularly evil. Preying upon addicts. Tell us about it. This is a national problems over. Homes in South Florida in Pennsylvania in southern California are recruiting desperate addicts. Who just want to get their lives together. There stuffing into corrupt and decrepit summer homes and then turning them through for more and more Rehab and urine testing schemes that are overbuilt in wildly inflated and then built here insurance companies. What what's really devious. And All of evil is that a lot of these sober homes are flop-houses drugs are easily and openly exchange. Out Booze handed out sexes. Even done with some of the Some of the staffers. Wha- why does this happen well because you keep encouraging the addicts to keep relapsing? What he wanted to relapse. So you can keep churning out Unneeded an inflated urine tests and Rehab Claims that are bill to your insurance company so these people basically aren't these addicts are in a literal death grip of of sober homes and the rings that support them. These people are overdosing. Some are dying and this is all for insurance. What he every bit of this is to steal in church money hundreds and hundreds of million dollars a year and is it is really disgusting. I mean to take people who are trying to get their lives turned around and then in some cases even allowing them as I gathered to take drugs in the home. I mean they probably encouraged as you said. It's just that is that's just appalling. I hope that person spends a lot of time in jail. Well he's got a very long jail sentence and that he's going to be spent a Lotta time behind bars Wow that is so awful. That just breaks my heart Well there's some other stupid things that people have done to and some of them are schemes. That are run by an individual rather than gangs are groups and nevertheless they're extremely serious. I liked the one about where a guy hired his brother to burn his house down. And that didn't in well did it. You know I can't tell whether I wanna be sick or laugh or both. Probably a little bit of both. Because he's what happened. Die Amedee's SA- bellows had his highest brother or really. Oh to burn down his house for for an insurance score really had no idea how to burn a house. He was in total amateur so he spread gasoline around lit- literate up and some of the gas exploded in his face. He was basically incinerated while standing on his feet he had. Oh he had left was literally his underwear. He came running out of the house wearing only underwear. His clothes burned off his body was blackened. You somehow made it to a friend's apartment you know. Just burned over his whole body He made it into the apartment and was dying. The guy was in such a bad state that he wouldn't even let the apartment his apartment friend call the ambulance. Because he's afraid the scam in Scranton Pennsylvania. It would be discovered laugh. Guys basically giving up his life so he wouldn't be discovered for insurance fraud. He died in the apartment Of his burns. That's you know that's what happens when an insurance goes wrong and boy did. That wouldn't go wrong. Wow and was the was the brother Anything done to him for perpetrating. This kind of fraud. Oh yes absolutely He will first of all he filed a five hundred thousand dollars insurance claim and that that just didn't go over well at all. The whole scam was easy. It was a very quickly discovered. Especially when his brother's body was was turned up later. That helps starting. The that started all the dominoes falling. He ended up with twenty years in prison and dead brother. I mean good Lord broker. It's just you know some of these issues say you don't know whether to laugh or cry when you hear these stories and we've talked about it in the past. How people's lives have been lost because of some stupid insurance fraud. They were participating. Well let's just take a a brief pause here to let our listeners know that they're tuned into of consuming interest. I'm surely rooker my guest. Is Jim Quigley? He's the director of Communications for the Coalition Against Insurance Fraud. And that's exactly what we're talking about. We're talking about the the The Organizations Insurance Fraud Hall of shame and believe me. It is pretty shameful Some of the things that go on. So let's talk about some of the other The what about the phone as you call it the phone Flimflam. Oh yes well. This was a nother monster claim. And we're we're we're talking about four hundred and twenty four million dollars. Basically people were being. Basically people were being from call centers all set up all over the world in different sections around the world and they they were calling They were calling people seniors mostly and they were trying to convince them to go get tests for medical equipment and for You know just like back braces and and arm braces and neck braces. And what they were doing is they. Were there. Were there were signing them up on the telephone. Then they were sending them over to doctors for phone interviews phone medical exams that were totally bogus. They have this brief conversation with the doctor. The doctor asked him a couple basic questions about their medical conditions and then sign off and then order these huge bills For for for back braces and other equipment in their names even though they didn't even need an even though they never really had a real medical task which is supposed to have before you order this stuff they call. I've had I've had this kind of call. They called me up and say oh. You're you're dealing with back pain right or your knees hurt right and I always say no. Nothing hurts hang up well. Unfortunately they'll tell you that there with an orthopedic clinic with something and and I've I've I've heard them. I mean they'll they want to sell you a device they wanna get all your information they want. Medicare information and then they just kind of like. Oh Wow they go to town because you're the victim here. Well actually. We're all the victim when you have something something like this but So how how do most of these people get caught? Jim like in this case here. The sounds to me like unless somebody in the ring ratted him out to the consumers who fell for these scams. Report them how do you find them? Do you know the back story on that. Well normally scams like this are just so big that you cannot keep them bottled up. The money was just so big that that Medicare couldn't help but notice there was some there was some odd problems going on how much money was flowing out. It looked like it was too much to be real to be believed out. So what did you start seeing? What did you start seeing piles and piles claims that? That just are just too much to be believed. Then you start an investigation in one thing led to another so this is coming out from certain groups saying that they're making all these claims. So yeah that could that could trigger some red flags Well th the bigger picture. Shirley is that seniors are being telemarketer. They're getting phone. Calls calls from from strangers all the time because it just seemed that seniors Don't do you know are are two adult brain and to forgetful to really be able to resist and they they trust people too much and this is what they were praying on. This ring was preying on. Seniors would would believe what they were being told. And so all these phone calls to seniors convincing that. Well we'll get you a free braves. We'll get you this. We'll get you and a lot of these seniors believed it. Unfortunately I know everybody's vulnerable to scams because some of them are really good I mean they're really slick. They convince you they sound. They sound reasonable some of them. I mean it's crazy. I like to listen to some of them just because of what I do and just to see what they say and play along with them and then at the end. I'll say you know you're across and I hang up on them so at least I've kept him bothering somebody else. So I think that you're you're you're you're great consumer advocate and I. I appreciate that you know how to Handle Yourself Frankie. I I advise most senior just to hang up absolutely absolutely. I mean pitchman exactly. Yeah they're they're professional pitchman. They know how to manipulate you. And don't let them try to sucker you and with with sales pitches. 'cause they can get their arms around your neck and then have you build all kinds of money in levee. Terrible terrible well. Let's let's talk about the one about Mike Williams who was devoured by an alligator in Florida. Not Terrible store it it. It's a horrible case. It almost makes me want to cry to think about because Mike loved his wife. Denise this was in Florida in Tallahassee Area. He loved these. They were high school sweethearts but he likes the. But the knees. And Mike's best friend we're having an affair behind his back so they wanted Mike out of the way so they went off on so the pair of guys went off in a guys day to just do a little bit of of duck hunting a boat out on the water. Mike Push so what the what happens is is best friend pushes Mike into the water and then shoots him in the head. While struggling in the water takes his body out of the water buries it and then says to these the police that Mike fill out of the boat. It must have drowned because he had all this heavy hug equipment on the the the cops thought that the cops never found the body so they figured that alligators must have must have eaten them up in in the in the sure. Yeah well of course. This was no. And of course Mike's Dad. They never found the body in the pond or any equipment. And Mike's death was worth one point. Seven five million dollars life insurance money that those two could carry off and get married after Mike was buried and just live a nice sweet and happy life but it didn't in that way it didn't happen that way. It took eighteen years to crack the cold case. Really lovely found out. Wow they hit assumed the police that assumed all along that alligators had eaten Mike. What they discovered eighteen years later is that alligators. Don't eat in the winter. They're hibernating they so the allegation could not have eaten him so the whole premise of the case was wrong and that started the investigation going. And and you know Mike's Mother kept the thing the case going and helped make sure that nobody forgot about it and eventually they they crack the case and connected them both. Bless Mike's Mother. Well Jim it is a hall of Horrors. Really what people do for insurance for money. Then we appreciate your sharing it with us today and just a warning to our listeners. Don't participate in any of these crazy scams you ripping off the public ripping off yourself and you may just end up in prison where you belong so you know. It's a terrible story Jim again. Thank you just let our listeners. Know Year Listening. You've been listening to have consuming interest. My guest has been Jim Quibble Director of communications with the coalition against insurance fraud. You can reach me at surely at call for Action Dot Org and you've been listening to us right here on fifteen hundred a m and the F. E. D. radio networks so news networks. We're glad you're here. Thank you for joining us. Consuming interest is a public service program presented by WJLA seven call for action hosted by Shirley. Rooker Call. For Action is an international nonprofit network of hotlines which offer free and confidential assistance. If you have a complaint contact call for action at three one six five to help. That's three Oh one six five to health.

Jim Shirley Rooker Mike Director of Communications fraud Florida United States Jim Quinn Pennsylvania theft Dr Peter Well south Florida
Eric Moch,   Insurance Fraud  Are You The Target of A Scheme

The Money Coach Ronda Cobb

27:28 min | 1 year ago

Eric Moch, Insurance Fraud Are You The Target of A Scheme

"The I.. Rybody this is Rhonda Cobb the money coach and welcome to our show. I know that you were going to love today's show. We're going to be talking talking about insurance fraud and are you the target of a scheme or you could call it a skim joining us. Today is our guest. He is a licensed attorney and partner in the Chicago Office of Hepler Broom where he focuses his practice disc on organized Healthcare Fraud Insurance Fraud and insurance coverage he likes representing council ensures businesses nonprofits rapids and individuals on a variety of topics and disputes in both state and federal court and sometimes even adequate He's a former board member up the National Society of Professional Insurance investigators or board member of the Panel Counseling Service of were Illinois and he serves on the city of word. visory commission on disabilities. So it is a great privilege and honor to have Airi'q here. Eric how are you today. I'm wonderful I appreciate you. Give me the opportunity to speak to you today. I'm doing great. It's a little chilly here. But it's nothing we haven't experienced before in December and it is as winter or almost officially winner. We only have a couple of days left before it's officially winner. I Yeah I was walking with my twelve year old son just last weekend and he's the one who taught me for the first time that it's actually winter yet despite the layers I've been wearing for weeks So some new every day and sometimes from twelve year olds exactly glee and if you're not learning from your twelve year old year just simply not paying attention. That was what I stubborn exactly you. I'm sure he's wonderful. You can send him over here to visit whenever you went. I think my computer needs bigs my IPAD. You know messed up. I could use that the L. for and we have good stuff here he would like this area. We're not that far away there anyway so when we talk about insurance fraud especially if we talk on the level of individuals you know what are the little hints or You know how were they going to recognize that maybe maybe the hair on the back of my neck ought to be starting to stand up because this is starting to smell like a bad fish. What are the little hints that they should be looking out for? Sure I in my experience over the course of my career defending against fraudulent claims certain themes I have been prevalent in. Let's start first with the theme and experience. Many motorists would have that I think fits the bill and in the staged and caused accident arena in which I traffic there is a type of staged at intentionally caused loss. Boss called swoop and squat. What will happen in the scenario is you are driving along nine year old business and without realizing realizing it one possibly two cars enter the late in front of you travel in front of you for a short distance at some point a vehicle vehicle in front of you immediately in front of you is going to slam on its brakes and come to an abrupt stop seemingly for no reason at all and you're going to have no choice but but to lock up your brakes and you will rear end? Sometimes you observe that. It's simply that one vehicle in front of you stopping for. No good reason in other settings settings you'll see a vehicle swoop in front of that one hit the brakes thereby causing vehicle in front of you to hit its breaks in either event you are slamming into another vehicle. You cannot for the life of you understand what just happened because seemingly whether it's the car immediately in front of you or the car in front that one. There was no good reason to stop your identity intersection. Nobody was guarding out. There were no distractions the roadway all sudden people just decided the slant on it breaks for no reason and now you've rear ended them simply that occurrence should raise the little hairs in the back of your neck that something's what's going on here and in fact if you as millions do each year find yourself in that scenario you have in fact most likely been a victim of what we call swoop and squat plot in which the perpetrators have executed a plan by which you rear ended them. And what do we know about personal injury claims. Probably the most common robin mechanism of an injury is a motor vehicle accident and especially your rear end accident because it causes what could sometimes be serious rarely catastrophic or fatal injuries. We're talking here in the nature of whiplash Once they have caused you to reread them. mm-hmm that's all they need. They're then going to go. Incur medical care They're gonNA amass thousands of dollars in medical bills and they're going to present a claim against your insurance company possibly sue. You possibly both that. I think somebody's going to be the victim of a very obvious and easily to discern form of insurance fraud. That's it out or others but that's it. Wow yeah that would be really bad If you think that happened to you you hear all of the Are you see everything that you just described happen. Brenham you and and You did not manage to stop in time. What do you do? Do you stay in your car. Do you take the risk of getting out. I do well. It's your concerns of personal personal safety always need to predominate. If you're in an area readers don't feel safe you know immediately. Call the police. Let them know. There's been an accident and stay in your vehicle. Keep the doors locked at some point. You're going to need to communicate with the drivers in front of you And believe me if they've intended for you to rerun them and they're gonNA make it very easy for you to do so what that means is if you don't if you don't trust the area in you fear for your personal safety you stay in your vehicle. You crack the window just a little bit you you communicate with them through the window you keep the vehicle running Every state treats fleeing accident as a ticket defense but if view truly fear for your safety get out of there and you can always get to the nearest police station afterwards and explain what happened and why you liked. You're not going to be called to jail because he fled it accident scene because he feared for your safety. If the scene is is one that you can trust and then you know be a human being. We allow for the possibility that maybe there was a legitimate reason. Maybe it wasn't an active fraud being human being get out make sure the person or people in the vehicle or okay you do. Ah Gatien to exchange information licenses insurance information. You know you have to have auto insurance so you need to exchange that information. There's nothing wrong with asking if they're okay. Hey there's nothing wrong with asking if you can call them an ambulance. There's nothing wrong with taking photographs. In fact I recommend it And you you don't have to act like you're one of these news. Expose reporters with a nosy cameraman. You simply take out your phone and we all carry in her pocket and say listen. This almost certainly is going to be the subject of an insurance claim. I WanNa start taking photos so you know we don't you would. I don't have to rely on her a faulty memories two years from now And and you start taking photos. The vehicles you start taking photos of the occupants. I would even suggest. Nowadays people activate the video function phone. Say Listen In case my insurance company wants to make you whole wants to you know pay you to claim. I I just WanNa make sure we got a good record of how you're doing. How are you Just sit on. I'm taking a video here. I just WanNa make sure that you're protected. Couch it in those terms Hey look are lots just happened. We're both awesome analyzed. Let's just make sure we preserve a record here in case you WanNa present an injury claim. Let's make sure your you know your there's a record here. That's why I'm filming this. This is for your own benefit and start engaging them how are you are you. Are you hurt. Can I call you any sort of medical attention. Do you want me to call the police. Do you need an ambulance silence. Yeah not a doctor but as any part of you hurting Can you turn your head anything anything else. Because increasingly basically what we will see in these claims is it could be a minimal tap with with cosmetic damage between the vehicles in what happens in two years when this claim it shows up in my office deposition after they filed suit. Oh it was terrible. I can barely stand up right. You're you're insured your client was mocking my physical pain. I'm just begging for an ambulance Abiola. You wouldn't do anything If they're going to they're going to force you to read them they're going to have no claws not lying. So I highly recommend dramatic. People feel safe they got out and start making photo and video documentation incident cool. I think that's that's a really good idea The last time I witnessed an accident that I thought looked a little bit. Funny You know it would have served the person who got hit very well if he had done on that Because by the time the police got there the other drivers that had literally sped sped up in order to run into this young man. had called twenty people to the the scene there were cars everywhere. They came from all over the place. And there were all these people and the Sadly the police came they were. They were like two rookies or one was a rookie and one was almost a rookie and I gotTA hand it to him. They did a really good job with crowd control in everything but I think at the end of it all is she and her twenty people convinced. These policemen that it you know the other driver was at fault. And that wasn't what my to us at all and I had seen the entire accident. and Oh my gosh. Yeah and so in your mention of a growing crowd leads us to the next way this can mutate into an additional layer fraud. It's called passenger stopping. You rear end vehicle in front of you. You have a strong sense that they forced you to do it. Something's not right. Lo and behold within minutes another vehicle pulls up three people get out the fourth drudge way way in those three additional people get in the car and they started hanging about the car. Well what are they doing there. They don't really announce their presence to you. Maybe over it makes small talk or what this the purpose of this is eventually when the police come and then of course if you call it a fender bender without any serious. There's injuries in most major metropolitan areas. It's going to take the police several minutes charitably to got to find the police up. You've now got four people who claim their car when in actuality you just saw the driver it when you got out and looked in the vehicle nobody else's the vehicle. How does this get resolved while two years from now? It's your word verse. Here's what are you talking about the whole time. You just don't WanNa accept responsibility. What's ability you WANNA be? You WanNa be halfway pregnant. You wanted to to rear ending the car and doing the right thing. But you're you're denying the existence of three of us. How could you do that to us? It's another thing that Colossians Councils rather favor of taking thought on radio absolutely absolutely a few few minutes. We've been speaking. I'm talking to you from downtown Chicago just in a few minutes. We've been speaking. I guarantee this pattern is played out somewhere. They're on the west side of Chicago. Probably half a dozen times already. Wow Yeah. There's a reason as busy as I am. These days reason my practice group is as busy as it is these days. It's insurance fraud. Broadly speaking it's a multibillion dollar industry because ask ask you that I bet it is and when you talk about the Multi Billion Dollar Insurance Fraud Industry now we start to get into my playbook. What does that cost the economy in general? Well okay okay. If you're not the direct victim should you were. Should you not be concerned about this. Billions of dollars and I would like like to say that. Yes you should because the law of large numbers which governs all insurance policies whether it's Your car your homeowner's your health insurance. Whichever all insurance is based on that one law and if you have have billions of dollars in claims or losses as they're called in the industry then that means premiums go up for everybody not just those afflicted is that right? You're correct you're correct. Everyone of pays the cost of insurance fraud. Because insurance is a for profit business They're going to pass on to their customers. There's as much of the cost of doing business as they can Most modern insurers are getting very astute at detecting fraud brought in and they're getting very good at combating but it that also costs money down. Get Insurance Company is either GONNA pay overpay on fraudulently claim or they're gonNA defend it successfully but that too is going to cost money because I I don't work for free. Although I want want to stress my Rachel very reasonable lawyers. Don't look for free and then it sounds like you don't really believe me Tiny bits get the goal. Line that from Missouri. But you would have have to show me. Hey I'm not charging you for this call Know any church. Companies have to decide when they're confronted with an obviously fraudulent claims. Are we going to overpay this claimant or are we going to pay any modern metropolitan area be going cost cost of defense. which is not you know? It's cheap we do this very efficiently. I've been doing this long enough. I can if I need cases efficiently but The market dictates what it cost loss. Either way you and I are going to pay our share of those Heightened expenses Texas every year when our premiums increase. That's part of the reason. And it's true whether it's this me Krajina's old cynical defense attorney. It's it's true for you it's true for the plaintiff's attorneys who filed lawsuits. Everybody pays the cost of insurance fraud. And that's just one way you're absolutely and it's not just your car insurance. I mean I just finished my whole stint of open enrollment for Healthcare Insurance Awesome Both Medicare and the ACA and and the cost of premiums and everything and listening to all of the people that were searching for good insurance options. And you just can't help but wonder how much is the cost of that insurance fraud running people up. I think it's significant. What do we know about our healthcare system? We know that it's exorbitantly expensive Last year healthcare spending grew to over three point six trillion dollars. That's almost five percent more than the year before that averages out to about eleven thousand dollars per person now you can attack that average Average is work how they work the the reality is. I can't remember where I read this. But something in the on the order of ten percent of the most sick and injured account for the vast majority of per person health care spending but of course that's skews That that skews against those of us who aren't profoundly sick or injured and don't spend nearly really that much but the bottom line is if you look at an average eleven thousand dollars per person in healthcare expenses each year. A lot of that is driven by organized medical fraud. You rear ending the these individuals from forced you to do so is just the start of the fraud. Medical fraud organized organized medical fraud. which is something very involved Investigating running is itself. They billion dollar industry probably just in in Cook County where I am alone will be billion dollars. I bet it is. What are you what that means is for instance we see on these? I'm injury claims. They're they're organized rings. It starts with a street level chaser. Who funnels the claimants? To An attorney the attorney then funneled claimants to a network of providers. All of whom are going to participate. None of them. Charge should be claiming directly. They create bills which them send to the attorney. The attorney then holds them for two years. They assert a lean L. I. E. N.. In the meantime aline is a legal device. Somebody who's owed money can claim Could put in a claim for the amount of the bill uh-huh from future satellites and Kane and what we're seeing in from these particular providers who are most active. I don't WanNa pay too broad brush. But for instance in the payment interventional pain management sphere. We're seeing the same providers and they are charging on on the order of order of magnitude of dozens of of of times more than their peers procedure which a legitimate non-fraudulent studying would cost. Only a few grand. And that's let's let's say we're talking about an interventional cassette injection in cervical spine inclusive of the physician's professional fee the facility fee anesthesia. He's just there isn't any although SOCIETA charges you might legitimate setting see that gopher twenty five hundred to five thousand I might be a little while. All in the providers were seeing the same procedures are going for forty fifty thousand dollars per pop in there largely able to get away with it because of course American healthcare pricing is the wild west. There are some standards but they're not rigid And it's basically what. What can you get away with? It's it is pricing the the Mar it's called market bear pricing. What the market will bear here? You price it for what the market will bear And it's why the people need to be constantly requesting quotes up front because the only way to combat this over overly expensive healthcare. Oh care is to be involved on a grassroots level. In if you go to the doctor and you I just go. They're going to charge you. Whatever the market will bear? But if you go in and you say I don't want to have this visit or this procedure until I know what it's GonNa cost. I will bet you that nine point nine times out of ten. They'll look at you and go. I don't know I don't have to tell you that when it back they do. That's in the ACA law that if you ask for an estimate they're required to give it to you an estimate running But so many people don't know that and they they're too afraid to do it but they don't understand that when you're paying think a copay of twenty percent for every hundred dollars you get knocked off for the price of that procedure you save twenty any of it twenty minutes in here on packet and people are not really grasping that they're like my destin insurance cover it all because because they can't afford to correct one of I would say are systemic problems of people and society and it's it's unique to America because of our health care system. We are not active engaged participants in our own healthcare here in especially when it comes to pricing we exist in a healthcare system in which pricing is skewed towards towards large employer provided group plans pricing. Not Most often set For considerations of the individual consumer as you point out though that said you can demand to know we get a reasonable rates what this is gonNA cost. It doesn't occur to people asset and I can't think of another segment of our economy with somebody willingly enters into an exchange without having any idea what it's going to cost a how. Yeah it's it's a real tragedy and those who are most cynical in most interested in capitalizing on that absolutely you and and I'm GonNa be doing a whole show on that soon because I spent a good deal of time. Pro Bono. As as you call it writing letters for people that would bring me bills and say but if my deductible for the year was this why did I get a bill for ten times that I'm like you don't know this bill. You already met your deductible and I would have to write letters and you know. And that's the other end of the fraud. A healthcare providers providers are taking the insurance company payment but they're also billing the individuals and so they get paid twice on one procedure. And it's starting to really get me a little bit hot under the collar. Now we only have about a minute and a half left Derek. So in that last minute and I want you to tell people that are totally fascinated or they feel like they absolutely are going to need some help How how can they get in touch with you And learn more or find out if you know they actually do have a legitimate complaint. Sure I'm happy to share this until probably the best way to learn more about my practice. It get hold of me. Check out the website of my Waffen. That's Hepler H. e. p. l. e. r. bloom than sweet hepler BROOM DOT com. You can learn about my firm you can learn about my practice and if you want to reach out to me directly probably the best way is by email because I'm frequently all over God's Green Earth Earth In court at the positions meetings will have you and it's Eric E. I c.. Dot Mock M. C. H. at half we're broom one word DOT COM. It's Eric Dot mock up. Alert Room Dot Com. I'm always happy to engage people discussion. I I am. I'm not aren't necessarily the attorney. Who would be able to help you fight this fight but I have a large network of folks who might just fit that bill? We decided. That's what you need awesome. That is totally awesome. And I know that there are people out that are going. Oh my God I had an accident. I didn't even realize I was gamed. And there's somebody out there right now saying Oh my God they make at being your state but now they know they're they might be able to do something about it but it's been so cool to have you On the show today and so awesome to learn a little bit about your we're expertise in how people can figure out if they're being schemed or scam is they may say. And we'd like to really just give you our art. Thanks for being on the show today and we're having yeah so outcome the privilege which was ours for all of you out there listening you know I think the one key takeaway that we can have for today's show. Is You know if you have a question or doubt or that. Little voice on the inside says something is a little bit off. You probably need to ask additional questions or seek out an expert to help you ask those questions and you know what I'm going to say before I say it but I always say at the end. Be Great Bill and you will attract treacly things and until next time. Thank you for joining us. This is Rhonda Cobb the money coach.

fraud attorney Chicago Rhonda Cobb National Society of Profession ACA Get Insurance Company Hepler Broom Eric Brenham Lo Panel Counseling Service