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Get a flu shot, make sure you're registered to vote, and make a vote-by-mail or Election Day plan with friends. We're still raging at the news, while trying to remind ourselves that working for freedom is a lifelong endeavor, and change can take centuries. A bright spot of hope: we talk with Stacey Abrams, who could be Georgia's next Governor.Reading ListCome see us on tour!Get a flu vaccineRegister to vote in the midtermsMichelle Alexander on resistanceAlicia Garza on the long gameMarian Wright Edelman: "Be a good ancestor."Stacey Abrams for Governor of Georgia
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Sawbones: 27 Reasons Why You Should Get a Flu Shot
Saw bones is a show about medical history and nothing the hosts say, should be taken as medical advice or opinion it's refund. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil? We think you've earned it. Just sit back, relax and enjoy a moment of distraction. From that weird growth, your worth it. Right. Is about the books. Well, one day. With glass. Polar be- and welcome to solve owns tour guide medicine. I'm your co host Justin McElroy, and I'm Sydney Maccarone folks that time of year again, the most wonderful time of the. You're singing that to reference flu season. Well, yeah, it's the time we all get to take control of our health and do something good for ourselves, but also those around us that we that we care about and get our flu shots. Yes, I would venture to say that it's not. It's not wonderful that we like have flu season, but getting a flu shot is the best way to deal with bad situation that flu season, unless we have a deep understanding of influenza how it works, how migrates predicting it. There's a thousands upon tens of thousands of millions of man hours research have had to go into those advancements in that understanding of that technology. That is true. So I think it's 'cause we're celebrating. I do think that we can celebrate the flu shots exist while simultaneously bemoaning the fact that flu season exists, that's fine. But it is flu shot sees flu season, but I take the. Mr. Levin, call flu shot season. And we just got ours this week, which is actually a little late for us. It's been kinda busy with their last week actually, actually. But yes, it's been. It's been busy here too busy few weeks. We got our shots which is a bad excuse by the way that excuse, and that's exactly where we're going to be talking about on this week's episode rather than telling you as much about the history, which we have done an episode on influence of you want that which we require return to. It's a big topic on that proverbial bone. But this week we're going to be, we asked you all on Twitter to tell us why you haven't gotten your flu shot yet because we wanted to give an all encompassing comprehensive, excuse exterminating. Episode of IRA flu is not the way I'm looking at it. Justin can look at it that way as as a physician, I feel like part of my job is to address concerns, and that's what I was looking at these emails as these are. You have not gotten your flu shot aside from the by the way. Thank you for the giant response. Yeah. Hundreds of emails. Thank you, all, which is wonderful that that you're all responding and interested in that you'll take the time to write to us. I, that is a little worrisome because that means these are people who have gone flu shots, not great, but but that being said, we do create the response and I have eliminated all of the responses that were just like, I haven't yet, but I'm going to thank you if you're planning on it and you just haven't yet. I don't have anything. That Email a party to get it sued, go, just go get it and don't. I read every Email. A lot of people were like my work is coming to the. They're coming to my work next week to give them. I have an appointment with my doctor in two weeks. I'm getting like a lot of people had reasons that they specifically have a date in mind, and that's the most important thing I think you could and we're gonna make this comparison a lot. I think it's like the best way to make sure the vote is you have a plan when and how and where and all that stuff. It's true for flu shots to if you know exactly when you're going to get it and you just haven't done it yet. 'cause that moment hasn't arrived. That's that's a little more comforting. But a lot of you had reasons that I think we can address because I consider them concerns, not excuses concerns. Yes. First of all, just I'm gonna stick with excuses. My dad was kind of a bad boy shock jock time. So excuse exterminating has a lot more heat than addressing concerns. Yes, but I'm Don Shinn the power x, a two axes EMC out. I, I wanna address concerns. I just you and I got our flu shots at different places. I thought it would be helpful because a lot of the and I'm generalizing, we I read every Email, but there were literally hundreds. So I'm generalizing the comments into, like a lot of people said this as opposed to naming every single person who said it. So a lot of people just simply said, I don't know how or where or what that is. I like, I don't. I know people get flu shots. I know they're out there. I wouldn't even know how to engage with that process. So I thought a good thing to start with would be just explaining what the flu shot is and what the process of getting a flu shot is because that addresses a lot of concerns. I think, yes. First of all, the the flu shot is what we or flu jab. I have learned jab that the UK jazz. Yeah, a lot of places in the world. It's the jab either way the. The the, it's the influenza vaccine and it is a vaccine just like all the other vaccines that a lot of people in their emails admitted, they were happy to get when they were younger and encourage their children to get in their family members. Yet it is a vaccine just like those other vaccines. I think what people get concerned about is that the flu vaccine is something you get every single year and there's a lot of talk about whether or not it works. And so some insight into how they do that, I thought might be helpful. So every year early early in like early this twenty eighteen back in probably January and February. A lot of scientists were spending a lot of time figuring out what strains of flu virus were out there. What strains of flu virus people were getting. They can check pigs, they can check chickens. That's where flu viruses come from. That's why we call them things like avian flu or swine flu because they come from birds and pigs. You can check all these different places to kinda see which strains of. Flu seemed to be most popular, and that's what we based next year's flu vaccine on, because those are the most prominent strains out in the community. Now, obviously, that means that can't cover every single strain. It would be impossible. So you make vaccine out of the most common strains that are out there circulating, it's usually either a try Vaillant or quadrivalent vaccine. And that means either three or four strains. And it's usually two strains of a flu and one strain of beef Lou or two of into of be that make sense. Yep. And the if you here by the way, I thought this was interesting. You know how we talk about h. and n. h. one into seventeen in ten, all these different, you know, have you heard that? Do you know what that references? No. Okay. I thought this might be helpful to understand what we're talking about. That's those are all referencing specific strains of flu, and they're based on two proteins that are on out on the outside of the virus to. Things that kinda stick off the outside of the virus called HIMA gluten and Nermina dais h. n. that's where those come from. And the reason those are important is that that's what we target. Those are. Those are the things are antibodies can latch onto and like kill the virus. So we need those h in things to decide, hey, these h ins are circulating the most. Let's make vaccines that will help you make antibodies to those h ns. Does that make sense? Yes, that's where that comes from. Yes. When you wanna get a flu shot, I went to my office where I work. So that's easy physician go to your place of business and yes, but this is also where we go for primary care where our family doctor works and it is this easy. And this is true at a lot of places. I went up to the front desk and said, hi, I didn't have say my name because they knew me. But let's say I did. Hi. My name is Sydney Maccarone here my two children, and we would like to get flu shots, and I said, great. And they. Signed me in and then they took me back into a room and they gave flu shots. Yup. No, -pointment needed. Yep, that's true. A lot of places. Yep, it's that simple just and where do you go are went to CVS and what you do over on twenty th street. If you wanna get the same flu shot as your gassing hero, just Maccarone hit up that twentieth street CVS and I went to the back of the pharmacy. And I said, I don't even have area scripture in there, but I was already there to get typers. I was like, I went to the back of the pharmacy or what are the counter. I said, hey, carrying get flu shot, and it was literally five minutes later filled out a form. And then it said I didn't have any Agios stuff. And then I give him the form back and they walked me over and give me shot. Yes, ours at the office was covered by insurance. So we were very lucky in that regard. So we didn't pay anything for it Justine, how much did it cost you? We're getting into some of the questions that people were getting some exercise. We should hold off. All right. We should offer get ahead of yourself. All right. Well, let's excuse number one. Excuse number. One Sydney that we heard from people is I am afraid of needles by far next to. I just haven't yet. This was the biggest reason. People haven't gotten their flu shot. I get it. I feel you used to be very afraid of needles. Then I went to med school where they make you get lots of shots and eventually got over it just because I had to it was either that or kind of give up my career path and I wanted to be a doctor, so that was it. Here's what I can say. I can't tell you don't be afraid of needles. You're still going to be frayed of needles. I will tell you that getting the flu can be way worse, then a shot, and I can also tell you that there is this year. It is approved to use the nasal spray plu vaccine. Now there are some other things that come with that that will get into, but there is a nasal e administrator in nasal administered spray influenza vaccine that you can get this year now, could it be more expensive, maybe, and do they always have it at every place? Now I, you know, there are some offices like, I don't even know our office had it necessarily because the flu shots just easier to stock for everybody, and you can give it to a wider variety of people there. Some other restrictions that come because the nasal administered vaccine is alive virus live, but can't get you sick, but still lie virus. So there's some other precautions. So there is a spray. So if you absolutely can't bring yourself get shot, you can still be vaccinated against the flu. I will also say that what. They use for the flu shot is a very small gauge needle. Rarely felt it. Our baby is eight months old and she didn't cry now cry. When she got a shot. It's like it's an unreasonable fear because trusted this shot does not her and you'll be fine. If you dig it gets really bad. We'll have put in like lines and stuff. Give you IV's and stuff like that, which is like huge needles, sticking your arm. And can you imagine these are way worse blood draws or worse? The thi DEP is worse. If you've ever gotten a shot, it's this is nowhere near the tetanus shot. You know, if you've ever had to have a Temecula test that's way we're early fill. This is among the the lesser painful, and it really like promise yourself a treat. If I can get through this trait, they gonna treat promise yourself, treat you can do this. I believe in you number two, I can't afford it. Okay. Now, as I said, we were lucky because our insurance covered the flu vaccine. Justin, how much did it cost you at CVS. Zero. 'cause they have my prescription card. Okay, my prescription card. Okay. So might be you might be in a situation where a pharmacy or your doctor's office, it will still be free now maybe you're not maybe don't have incher. I didn't get a referral or anything just like was filling prescription there. I gave my insurance card and they and they share a lot of pharmacies will cut deals, so it might still cost you something, but it may not be as expensive. I know there was some places advertising, five dollar flu shots, so it can be pretty cheap. The other thing to check into is your local health department at our Kabil county health department. They are zero dollars. They are free. So check your local health department. They may have absolutely one hundred percent free flu shots for you to go get. Even if they don't do a dull for free most every health, Robert, I think this free kid are kids and elderly people. Yes, I was reading so. So check your local health department. You might be able to get a shot completely for. That is absolutely checking out. Number three. I heard a better shot comes out later in the season. Wait. Can I make the point? Yeah. If you don't have insurance getting the flu, if it got really serious would be monumentally more expensive to have to be hospitalized to be treated for the flow. That's a great thing to to consider the alternative, the alternative that you might get the full. I mean, you might anyway, but you might get the flip to say nothing of missing days of work. You know, that's definitely going to cost you more than thirty to thirty five bucks. So I think you are ensuring yourself. I think buying a little bit of peace of mind. Also Planned Parenthood, give flu shots. Oh, okay. So there you go. There's another place that you can go get a flu shot. Planned Parenthood. What's your next one? I heard a better shot comes out late in the season. Okay. Generally speaking, we only come out with one flu vaccine per season. They're like I said there might be like a three strain version and a four strain version and a nasal spray version versus a shot or a higher dose one for older people. But generally it's all the same flu shot that comes out once a season in weird years. Like the year, we had the h. one in one outbreak that was like in April. We did end up coming out with that vaccine later, but that was in response to a new strain that it wasn't replacing the old one. You still should have gotten the old one and then got the other ones. So don't wait. There's no better shot coming, get the shot. Now, I wanted to save him for higher risk, people's lash concern about shortage. A lot of people were, I think, had this out to a sick thought that like I don't want to get it because I'm healthy. And so there are people who need it more younger people, older people, people who have business, that kind of thing. And I understand that there have been years where there. Have been shortages by and large. That doesn't happen. That's the number one thing by and large. We have flu vaccine to spare, so I wouldn't put that high on your list of concerns. And number two, you are protecting those people by getting the shot yourself, they're protected by her immunity. So all those little kids that you're worried about all the elderly people, you're worried about your taking better care of them when you protect yourself as well. Because let's say that neither of you get the shot and then you get the flu. Now you're putting them at risk because you've got the flu. It's so herd immunity depends on healthy people getting the shot to. I thought it was too early. A lot of people are concerned that that it wears off, and so you have to get it like at a certain time in the flu season. So it will ask the whole flu season and been a lot of studies to see like antibody Tigers and how they drop over time. And yes, it does the your immunization against the flu does wear off over time. Generally speaking, though it in most people will laugh. The entire flu season if you get it as soon as it comes out, what we recommend is that if you haven't gotten it by October, go get your shot. I heard a lot of people ask about mid November. There's no recommendations. I could find that, say, mid November, everything in the CDC will tell you just get it. Just get it if you're somewhere and they offer it in its July, it's August September. Get your shot now, but get it by October. There's a two week period that it takes to sort of incubate inside you, right? Yes. Get moving. It takes about two weeks to build up, affective nece and you don't know influ season's gonna start. There have been some cases of flu sporadic cases already. So you don't know when it's going to kick in, you're better off just getting it when you got the chance. Let's say it gave me the flu. The flu shot gave me the flue gas in the past. So here's the truth about the flu shot. It cannot give you the flu. It's impossible unless it's impossible unless now it's impossible, but the nasal thing. So in, okay, the live virus vaccine. We do not recommend for people who are immuno-compromised. So the nasal spray for people who have certain conditions that make them, you know, deficient if you're on medications that can you know suppress your Munich because you've had like a transplanted organ or because you are on chemotherapy. Maybe you know for cancer, if you have something like HIV your immune system compromise, and we don't recommend any live virus vaccines typically for people in an immuno compromised state, but the shots, fine. The shot is fine for everybody. You will not get the flu from the flu shot. It's impossible. It doesn't have the actual flu virus that can make you sick in it. It just is not possible. So if you got sick after got the flu shot, it wasn't the flu. It wasn't the flu shot. It was just bad luck and we tend to associate those kinds of things more strongly because we hear about people getting sick from flu shot. And so if we get sick, the flu shot. You remember like all the flu shot made me sick, but it's just an error of attribution. It was not the flu shot period promise. You cannot cannot cannot give you the flu under any circumstances are we have about twenty one more of these to get through after the break we're going to. So we will pick up the pace considerably. It's going to be a lightning around some of these will be a lot faster, a lot faster. But first, let's say trip to the billing department, let's go. Yeah, one of us to say, let's go to San Francisco. Okay. Yeah. Our first bounce this week is blue apron. Boy, birds mission is to make incredible home cooking acceptable to everyone by delivering farm fresh ingredients and step by step recipes to your door. You can cook incredible meals. And as little as twenty minutes folks, we love blue apron. We've been blue apron members, subscribers partners, part of the blueprint family. However, you wanna say it for several years now and that is long after we're still getting like free meals from blue apron. We just do it because it works for our family. You know, like you don't. It is such a cooking for yourself is always going to be healthier than what you're going to get in a restaurant. Specially ended up defaulting fast food, a lot of nights, and it is just such a huge pain in the butt to pick a recipe, three recipes, the beginning of the week, go the store and get all the ingredients for them. And all also you have leftover ingredients that you're not gonna use. Gonna end up on waste blueprint is exactly what you need delivered right to your door and gets the boring out of the way. So you can do the fun stuff actually. Cooking. Check out this week's menu and get your first three meals free at blue apron dot com. Slash SABA that's blue apron dot com. Slash Sauber to get your first three meals for free blue apron, a better way to cook. I want to tell you this week about ZipRecruiter. You know what is not smarts any that just the way we used to hire people, here's how you would do it. You would write in chalk on the outside of your business, the positions you're looking to fill, then you would just hope that it wouldn't rain because the first rainy day came along. All your all your work is is there's like tons of legal things you had to put in there and small print, and it's all gone. Mary Poppins talk drying and Mary Poppins. Exactly. Luckily there is a better way to do it. It's procr- dot com. Slash Saab owner. They got this powerful matching technology finds the right people for you me you. I pointed at you actively invites them to apply. It's no wonder ZipRecruiter's rated number one by employers in the US. And right now our listeners could try ZipRecruiter for free, whoa, Greg, radiaction really at ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash saw bones. That's ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash s. a. w. b. o. in e. s.. All right. Are you ready? Be dust and hit me the lightning ground. Let's see where we leave off. Okay, I never seven. I have a cold slash bronchitis slash other mild illness. Okay. Generally speaking, if you have some sort of mild self limited elm illness, you can still get the flu shot. If you have a fever, sometimes they'll discourage you say, wanting to come. For more flu shot. Right. Just like an elevate like over one, four, temperature Fahrenheit. Like, have you heard this one? Yeah, I've heard it anyway. Just we're trying to move fast. Even scripts Johnston. Even if you had that fever, you probably still could get the shot. But. Which Weaver, barring a temperature over one hundred point four, you cough and you can be snotty, you can be sneezing, you can still get that flu shot. It's okay. So there it is. If you wanna weigh. I mean, just make sure you come back, but this is not a reason. You can't. Number eight. It makes my arm source lash makes me achey slash elevated temperature slash mild, your eyes symptoms. The only answer I got to this point where skip the flu, everybody. I agree. It may my arm achey for about twenty four hours to I li- growth. And was helpful. IB program was helpful. I think I think that Cooper was more irritable. That night will sear. Yeah, she was fine the next day. I mean, really like these are mild self-limited common symptoms that might come with the flu shot for about twenty four hours and that's it. And listen. Mine didn't hurt at all. So I'm telling you CVS on twentieth. They're gonna take care. Yeah, I got great better needles. I don't know my shot. The shot didn't hurt my arms little sore. The next day. Yeah, that was about it. This one's tough. My parents haven't taken me and I'm a minor. The best advice I can give you is one don't be afraid to advocate for your own health, whether that's to your parents or anybody else. So one thing you might wanna do is just sit down and say, like, mom, dad, guardian, whoever is in charge of your health. Here's an episode of a podcast you listen to the entirety of, and this is really important to me, and I'm going to be making these decisions for myself someday. And this is a decision I'm going to be making and I'd like you to respect that and let me make that decision. Now if they say no, they say no, maybe play him. This episode maybe try to reassure them, take him to the CDC website. Every question concern that you guys brought up, it's on the CDC's website and they answer thoroughly take you to your doctor, talked to him about it. Maybe the doctor engage with them. That's a great idea. Make deal drop it. If you'll listen, if the listen to the heritage of this episode and hopefully will address whatever lingering concern is there in their mind. You know kids. You figure out how to get cigarettes, you figure out how to get an auger fate. You can do this teens use Snapchat to get your flu vaccine. I don't know how it works to do it and parents. If you're if you're minor in your house has gotten you to listen to this episode because they want the flu shot, your your kid just wants a flu vaccine. That's good kid. You got all the things kids do and your kid just went to flu vaccine. Podcast. Number ten, I never get sick. I get that. I don't. I always say that too, but I still get my flu vaccine because I don't wanna get the flu that the idea that because you've never gotten sick means you never will sick. When I say it like that. I think you already know it's false logic, right? I mean, there are lots of things I've never done that. I recognize I'm still at risk for. I've never. I've never been in a car accident. Thank goodness, but I still were my seatbelt. Right, exactly. Does nothing of the other people like the you are helping preserve even if you are necessarily, you know. If you can tough it out. I'm going to address that. Oh, good. All right. Well, I won't get ahead of myself, but yes, even so even if it's not for you, what about everybody who does get? No, you know someone who has gotten sick. Here we go. I'm not high risk. I can handle the flu slash fluids. No big deal. Yes. So a lot of people have said. I want to save it for healthy people because like even if I get the flu, whatever. So I'll be fine. The flu, the flu is not that bad. Okay, here's how bad the flu is the CDC estimates. The influence has resulted in between nine point two million and thirty five point six million illnesses that it way it varies year to year. That's why there's such a huge range some years. It's not as bad between one hundred forty thousand seven hundred and ten thousand hospitalizations in between twelve thousand and fifty six thousand deaths annually since two thousand ten per year per year. The flu can kill you. It probably won't, but it can and it does not discriminate while, yes. In many years, the commonly circulating influenza strains are more deadly for the very young, the very old and people with chronic illness. There are years h one in one is a good example. When healthy adults died from the flu. Healthy teenagers died from the flu. You can die from the flu. You probably won't. And I'm not saying this to heighten your anxiety, but a flu shot reduces your chance of dying from the flu. No matter how healthier tough you are. It's not worth it to say nothing of the other people will again herd immunity. Yes. My doctor didn't have them in. So even if your doctor doesn't have them in now they might have them in later. And as we've already said, you don't have to your doctor's office. You can get them at a pharmacy. You can get them at the health department. There health fairs in your community or hospital has health fairs. We can just come in and get flu shots all day. Just Google flu shots in whatever your hometown is. I guarantee you there multiple places. You can get it. If you can't get at your doctor's office. I like missing school slash work here. Can I handle this? Yeah. This seems like as a lay ahead, here's a thing folks, your employer does a less by the way, a lot of employer. I don't think we went to them the cost section. Did we employers offer it. Check his missing work. Don't want you miss you, but your employer, other than that doesn't need to know you get the flu shot or not fake it folks. How much more fun is that going to base? Oh, got the flu puking, Pupo go, then you stay home. Place has creed, it's for a week and you feel great and you can order gino's and lie shark it and you're not gonna actually the flu. It's the best of both worlds. You know, I'm going to let that be. I'm actually the kind of person. I would advocate that if you need to miss work that badly fake it for a week, you don't need miss work. You want him as well. I mean, if he I mean seriously fake it and get the flu shot. I'm actually in favor. I went to lose the lose zero employer. If it's about school and your minor, your parents would rather you try to fake being sick or talk them out of sending you to school a day. Then you get the flu and risk your health and safety inconvenience of time slash travel. It's cetera I can help with us on a little bit. I'm not kidding. When I said it was five minutes at CVS are filled out a form. They walked around the counter, wouldn't this little room. They jab it in my arm. I left. I mean, it was like nothing. I even finished getting after I told him, I one of the flu shot. I went and picked up a couple of things. Check out. The register, took the groceries out to the car. What back in and got the shot. I mean, it was it was an extra five minutes literally, et met most doctors offices. It's it's that quick too, because again, most places do not need an appointment unless you specifically want to discuss it with your physician. The doctor usually isn't involved in this year's go, say, you wanna flu shot. They have you fill out a little form and then someone there gives it to you. So it's. Very quick. The other thing is, if you end up one of the unlucky people who is hospitalized from the flu, that's a lot more inconvenient lot more a lot more inconvenient and also the flu will knock you out for a while. So again, inconvenient, I also by the way I look this up while we were, we were talking about, you can actually get the show for twenty bucks at Costco. Save a few bucks. It looks like that is your your cheapest option. Again, things like the health department Planned Parenthood, where there are places you may be able to get it for free. If you really Google free flu shots in Huntington and found that out, I knew it, but I wanted to see if you could get by googling. Perfect. I have a bad slash weakened immune system. I paired this with the next one. I have a great immune system. I thought both the these reasons for not getting the flu shot either. I am worried because I get sick a lot and so I don't wanna get the flu shot. I think if you think about it and after everything I said, I hope you know what I'm gonna say, you actually then should get the flu shot. If you get sick a lot and you think you're more likely to get the flu, you should get flu shot. You're somebody who needs it and there's no reason you can't. There is nothing in the flu shot that is going to like because you have a weakened immune system, make you sick. It doesn't work. That way doesn't work. That way. It doesn't work. I can't say that enough. It's just it's it's a dead virus. It can make you sick. So if you think you have a Batum Yoon system, you should get flu shot. If you think you have a great immune system, you should get the flu shot because no matter how infrequently you get sick, the flu is a roulette. You get the flu by being exposed to the flu virus and enough viral particles getting inside of you and making you sick. That's it. It's chance it's chance and exposure, and it has nothing to do with. How robust you feel like you're white blood cells? Are it really doesn't unroll bust you think that they are? It's just exposure and no matter. I mean, most of us just have immunity that isn't like weakened or on week. I mean, it's just that's usually it is what it is. You're just getting sick 'cause you're getting exposed, whatever you think of your immune system still get flu shot. We'll see next up. I have a family member who can't get it more reason to get. I saw this a lot. People were concerned that if they got the flu shot, they could somehow and they had a reaction that could somehow make their family member sick, but that can happen ever. Again, you can't get sick from it and to it's actually the opposite. If you have a loved one who has, I think some specific mentions were like my loved one has a long disease like chronic lung disease COPD. And if they get sick, it's really bad. Even more reason that you need to get it. And if your family member is not getting it because they have asthma COPD or any other chronic lung disease, they actually should get it just talked to their. Dr I guarantee you their doctor wants him to get it if you're not sure you can always ask, is it okay for me to get flu shot? And they'll tell you, but if you family mur- who can't get the flu vaccine and is ill, more reason for you to get the flu vaccine. I don't trust the pharmacy to give it to me and all that Trump's are busy slash far away. Oh, I thought this was interesting. It never occurred to me that a pharmacy might be seen as like a sketchy place to get a flu vaccine because they're roller sleeves up. I think that makes. The farmers roller sleeves up and it's like, okay, I, I really never considered this, but I will tell you that giving a flu vaccine, like the idea that there's a huge risk of contamination or infection or being dirty or something it it's it's not. I mean, it could come in a vial that they're drawing out of with a syringe. Sometimes they come in preloaded, serenity film. Preloaded syringes. So they're just, they just opened the package and and Jabalya and like the the pharmacist know how to do it just as well as the RN's LPN's 'em. As I mean, physicians usually aren't giving flu shots and full Senate looking for fame. But in there just pop it in the mouth. Honestly, at our office, a lot of med students give flu shots. I mean, if the patient's agree they ask, they say, I'm gonna give you my flu shot. Students give me flu shots constantly. I let them do any immunity on me because they need to learn. You don't have to, but you don't want the doctors doing it. We don't give shots almost ever. We can understand how to, but the nurses at my office way better. They do it. There's the pros. Those pharmacists are given tons of flu shots. They know what they're doing. Yeah, you're fine. Pros. They have been wrong in the past, and the shot has worked. Fair. We've been, we've guest their own strains in the past. Yes, that is that a fair point. But what I would say is we've also guest the right strains in the past. We've also had years at the flu shot has definitely saved lives. Actually, probably every year the flu shot has saved some lives some years more than others. And even if we guess they're strains, sometimes you can. You are still less likely to get fatally ill if you've gotten the flu shot, even if we guess their strains and why you know maybe we'll get the right ones. I would say the flipside of that argument is more powerful. So if we guess they're on strange, you gotta shot. You didn't need big deal. If we get the right strains, we might save your life. I've never got one before and I've never gotten the flu. Does your car your car wreck argument again, right again? Yeah. If you if just because I mean, how many years do you drive around in a car before you say, I don't need to wear a seatbelt anymore because I guess I'm fine. It doesn't make sense. No. I mean, this could be the big year I did. You know, when I got the flu. Last year last year? Yeah, I've gotten a flu shot every year about the flu last year. It was miserable. It was miserable. I never miss work and I had to miss work and it wasn't fun. Miss work. It wasn't like cuddle up and read a book and each and soup. It was lay there in agony 'cause I've never felt so bad miss work. I'm not around people a lot. I will give you some. I'll give you some leeway on this one in that if you're never around anybody who has the flu, I don't how you'd get the flu, so that's fair. But maybe you will go around bee's that go around somebody and at the height of flu season. It could be anywhere. You could make one quick trip out to the grocery store to the movies to wherever to the to the library. And that could be the moment that you're exposed. I mean, it's just it's that widespread by the height of flu season, even if you leave your house once a month, it's still worth it. Maybe a great awakening and you decide you want to get out there more. You never know. Now you have to wait two weeks because you ding, you're. Let's say, I didn't know I needed it slash didn't know the season for it slash don't know how to find it. I think we've covered. I think we've got by the way flu season October to April. Generally they can vary April. I've already had the flu. Well, first of all, there are a lot of viruses that can be like the flu. So you may have had something that you thought was the flu, and it wasn't there tons of viruses out there that have similar symptoms. So number one in less, you've actually been tested and proven to have the flu you may not have. Now, let's say you were Johnson into why people often think that the the shot has made them sick or giving them symptoms because I've had like a weird virus. We passed around that. I got like a week after the flu shot. So like this time of year for these sorts of wigs, actually, this is this time of year for rhinovirus and krona virus virus and every other virus out there that can make you feel lousy like the flu does. It might not have been the flew to, let's say that you did actually get tested and you did. Did absolutely have the flu. You probably didn't have all three or four strains that the flu shot protects you against. You still get protection from other strains of the flue than the one that you got. It's still worth it to get the flu shot. I was told not to get a live vaccine fair. As I mentioned, the nasal spray is alive vaccine. And if for whatever health reasons you cannot get a live vaccine, get the flu shot. It's not. They're just a way to make money. We lose money on vaccines, are office loses money on vaccines. There is not a ton of money being made on back scenes. Look at the look at the expense of drugs like the flu vaccine wholesale is like, I think worldwide, like five bucks or something pretty cheap in the in the grand scheme of things. There's a way to make money off drugs and it's not vaccines. People are not making buco dollars off the flu vaccine. It's not a conspiracy. The government is behind this good indicator that is people giving away for free. It's probably not a big profit center. Exactly. It's the interest on my end as doctor is keeping you and everybody healthy. And from a public health perspective, it's avoiding a pandemic, getting the flu will strengthen my museum. There is okay, here's what getting the flu will do. You will create antibodies to that exact strain of flu that you have been exposed to. And if that exact strain of flu tries to invade again, you have antibodies against it already accept that. As we know the flu strain changes every year every year it's something different. So you, your immune system is not inherently any stronger for having survived the flu. You've just made antibodies to that exact virus that you were invaded. That's it. So I found that kind of misconception that like you can strengthen your immune system by being exposed to more illnesses. No, you just have antibodies to those things and that doesn't even necessarily confer confer lifetime unity, depending on what virus you're exposed to one that I thought was interesting that actually didn't right away to the answer to that they, they didn't want to mess up there. Blood donation schedule you on like that regular, it's every eight weeks or whatever it is you can donate and they thought they couldn't donate. If they go flu shot. I read that. That and I actually went and checked at the American Red Cross because I had never heard that before. And there is no reason if you've gotten a flu shot, you can't donate blood as far as their website unless they're telling you something different when you go in person. The official word from the American Red Cross is that you can get a flu shot and still donate blood. They don't want you to be symptomatic of the flu when you donate blood. So if you if you come in with a fever or something, I, I don't think let you donate blood, but the flu shot doesn't do that. So like the flu shot does not give you the flu. So I don't see any reason. They specifically say there's no indication to getting to donating blood after you've had a vaccine is the needle thing. No, because it generally accepted that. I mean from shots, you just you, you're not being exposed to anything. I mean, the the incident of the of like viruses being passed through blood transfusions and shots and things like that. I mean, it's almost nothing nowadays compared to what it was prior to our testing and the, you know, the rigorous procedures used to screen blood products and everything. Are there any good reasons for not getting your flu shot? Here's a common one that that we used to have more caution and actually isn't one anymore, but I'm allergic to eggs. I'm not, but that's a common excuse that I have heard. We actually now say that even if you are allergic to eggs, you should get the flu shot. If you have had an anaphylactic response to in the past, you might wanna consider getting the flu shot at your doctor's office at a at a medical office instead of going to the pharmacy or something like that. At a health fair, I would recommend that I would say to my patients who are lurked eggs, wanting to come into the office will give your flu shot. They used to recommend like watching you for thirty minutes. They don't even recommend that anymore because they've done a ton of studies and what they found that even people who have documented allergies documented antifa lactic two eggs. They have not been able to find a case where they've had AFL access to the flu shot. There have been sporadic cases throughout the years that people have reported where maybe there was a connection, but studies have not ever been able to replicate that. So even if you're learning to eggs, you can get the flu shot. There are some people who said, I'm currently very sick and yeah, if you're really sick right now, if you're hospitalized, if you are on medications and your doctor has said, I think that you should wait till you're better to get the flu shot. We'll sure just get it when you're better. We usually give it to people actually when we're discharging them from the hospital. So if that kind of gives you a perspective, what we think when you're first admitted in you're sick, we don't give it to you. But before you leave, we do give it to. Do you Guillaume beret Kiamba Ray is an autoimmune reaction. So like your own antibodies are attacking attacking the nerves in your body and it can cause paralysis to temporary condition. It resolves and it can happen usually after viruses, like certain cold viruses or stomach viruses or certain 'Bacterial at campylobacter. They're different things that can cause it, but in nineteen seventy six, they found some cases that seem to occur after a flu vaccine. And theoretically, they thought maybe Kiamba Ray was connected to getting the flu vaccine since then they've done. They've done all these studies and what they found is that at best it may be one out of a million people who might have this reaction. And that's not even a hundred percent certain where still not sure that it actually was the flu vaccine, but it is theoretically connected. So for people who have had Guillaume beret within six weeks of receiving a flu vaccine in the. Past, if you personally have, then we recommend caution. You might wanna have a conversation with your doctor before you get the flu vaccine. It's actually not an absolute contraindications. It just means that you should talk to your doctor about it. Now I did make the point that there were some reasons why like the live vaccine, you might not get the nasal spray. So with the live vaccine, you can't get it. If you are kid age two through four who has asthma. So asthma's a reason and kids that we don't give people who are media compromised again, can't get a live vaccine. So like people they v or who are on medications at suppressor immune system pregnant. People can't get the live vaccine if you have, oh, contacts or caregivers. This is where if you have somebody in your house who is immune suppressed, somebody that you take care of or somebody that you're with everyday who's immunosuppressed don't the live vaccine, get the shot instead. And then the the other thing for all vaccines, the only absolute contraindications the flu shot. This is true for any of the flu shots. If you've. Had a severe allergic reaction to the flu shot. Yup. Yeah. So for the flu shot, the only reason that you absolutely cannot get it. Is if you've had an allergic reaction to the flu shot before, barring that it's at least a conversation with your doctor and for the vast majority of us, it's not even that you just get it. I think the number one thing that you saw and this was people just said like they just hadn't. They were lazy, I think was the number one thing. People said and kudos for being honest, lot of people said that they were just Lazier apathetic or just aren't gonna bother. We hope hopefully by listening to this episode, you've seen a lot of the reasons why it is important. In the time that it took you to say Email beloved podcast about why you weren't getting the flu shot. You got your flu shot is baby would big. You could have got favorite emails was actually somebody said that they started to type out all the reasons that they hadn't gotten it yet. And when they read it back, they realized that it sounded kind of lame and they went and got their flu shot. And I love that. Thank you. Fantastic. So Tusa favor share this odor around help people. See, this is something really important if you maybe we're on the fence and you'd be get your flu shot. Tweet us a picture. Let's see. Hashtag flu shot hero. Let's his flu shots, and, hey, if you're holding the copy of the solvents book in that picture, even better. That I don't why I should solve, but it's real Amazon. Now by a bunch of copies carry carry like ten copies in your arm, the bandage right there, if you are a lot of people said, wanted to preface with IM pro vaccine. But if you're pro vaccine, the flu vaccine is a vaccine. It's just right in there. I as a doctor, it's hard for me to see why it's so separate. Understand all these reasons logically. But for me, it's all the same. It's all there in together. If you're pro vaccine, this is a vaccine, get it. Please share this with people who are anti vaccine are anti flu vaccine, maybe because this is really it's a public health service. It's for you and it's for everybody else. And it's so important that you do it. So it's one of the biggest things you can do for your fellow humans is protect yourself from disease. You don't make other human sick takes just a minute to do. It's not that big inconvenience. You're helping yourself, hopefully, and those around you need protection. The most. You know, it's basically like voting, not unlike voting, which which are achieves all those things. It's part of being a good citizen of the world, and we trusted if you're a listener of our program, you're a good egg, and that is important you. So please go get your flu shot and you'll feel better or at least you won't feel worse. Yes. Hopefully, hopefully hopefully hopefully it won't make you feel worse than forty five minutes. Forty, five minutes. Hopefully you'll feel better. Hopefully it will prevent the flu promise people that it's, it's just it probably will. Okay, either one, it won't make you feel worse. It won't make you feel worse. It will make a better human. Very about that emotionally. It's it's very scientific. You're getting the flu vaccine is great and everybody should do it. But I, I'm not gonna why I don't want to mislead. Okay, that's fine. I will. This is not a lie. We were part of maximum fun network is a network of beloved podcast of the care about you as much as you care about them maximum fund dot org is the site for those shows. I did briefly mention the Saul bones book. You can get that at Amazon or your favorite local bookstore, please. If they don't have it ask for it and picked it totally up, but you can get a. I just looked at Amazon to see what they make sure the because of able it is you can buy it. And if you're a half, please review. Also, there's an audio CD of the suburbs, but for sure what that is, but. There's not an audience. But that I know stick with the hardcover. Thank you so much everybody who's about that book and his tweeting pictures at us and leaving those your views and everything. Thank you so much. That means the world was we seriously. It's like it's thank you so much and thank you. The tax payers for to medicines the internal of our program and thank you. Listen, we're going to be back with you in a another week. Sorry, missed our Friday, self imposed deadline, but hopefully we'll try to catch it next time. And until then. Yes. And that's the audiobook Justin, the audio book it's on preorder. Oh, preorder. They did we. Yeah, we did. Yeah. Apparently it's gonna be able to see which is wild. Okay, fine. P.. Three, two threes. Yes, so thanks, that's gonna do it for us until next week. My name is just McElroy. I'm sitting macaroni. There's always don't drill hole in your head. Maximum fund dot org. Culture, artists owned listener supported.
Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine
Aired 4 months ago 57:12
Flu Do You Think You Are?
have you loud and clear. Welcome. Signs and that is to say, physics, medicine, nature, brain right. Hello. This year marks the centenary of the Spanish flu. The worst pandemic we've ever encountered. So this week will looking where reverses come from how they evolve, what we can do to defend ourselves against them. Plush in the news scientists find the fossilized fats from the earliest animal life on earth and ignoble winner discusses the number of calories you get from cannibalism, and we get gaming all in the name of science. I'm Jemil's. I'm Chris myth and this is the naked scientists. The naked scientists podcast is powered by UK fast dot coach, UK. Now the earth is getting on a bit. It's about four and a half billion years old, and we've got evidence that life started here pretty rapidly. It was up and running within about five hundred million years, but then things stayed very small, very simple. And some would say very boring for the next few billion years. Everything was just microbes. Then something special happened because around six hundred million years ago, large complex multicellular life. As we know it suddenly appears in the fossil record. The question is all these fossils the remains of animals plants, all some of the bizarre, evolutionary offshoot. No one could tell from the appearance alone, but now scientists strategy have nailed it by achieving the incredible feat of extracting from one of these ancient fossil species code Dickinson Lia the fats and cholesterol's would have been in the tissue when this thing was alive. So is it an animal vegetable or mineral? Can Brooks. Dickinson. Ya is an oval shaped creature that was lying flat on the seafloor in probably relative to shallow water. It looks a little bit like a big coffee bean with lots of rips and the smallest we analyze. We about one centimeter the biggest six centimeters, but there were some true giants became up to one meter forty. It is a five hundred fifty eight million year old creature, and the fed tells us at was the earliest animals in the record. And they're important, of course, because if these are big animals, the nail, some of the earliest big animals and effectively there what gave rise to the life that turned into us. I think those are fossils are the most important fossils in the entire geological record. If you have a time machine and you go back to five hundred eighty million years ago, go scuba diving. You would need a microscope to see anything at all. Life was microscopic and about five hundred and seventy million years ago. Those DR croon creatures appeared and they became enormous quite quickly up to two meters. That's when life became big. And that's why it's important to know what this creatures actually wear. So how did you actually decide to pursue this in terms of looking at the fats and how did you get the fats extrordinary to thing, there are fats there which more than half a billion years old. The idea for this project infect comes from PHD student Ilya Brodsky. He contacted me from Russia is a Russian student in two thousand thirteen and said, well, I found this idiotic Fussell's and they're almost mammy fi, their preserved organically. I want to extract fat molecules from them. And that should tell me if the speeches were not our earliest animals and I thought it's my stupid idea l. heard. I thought it was totally crazy, but it was very, very smart students. I thought, well, you should try it for himself. So hired him as a PHD student. He extracted these things and it simply where it was completely stunning. How'd you get the fats out of the fossils? You can't try at home. It's a dangerous and be very difficult. So what does is first drips hydrofluoric and hydrochloric acid on them so that your Ganic meta is lifted up from the rock underneath. And then we analyze the molecules using chemical techniques and those fats have definitely come from the fossil the vestige of the fossil when it was in life. That's right. So you could think if we actually touched these fossils with our fingers, we would introduce cholesterol, which is the hallmark of animals and immediately look, we found an animal, but actually our own fingerprints. But we went into extraordinary lengths to exclude contaminants and look exactly what these molecules came from. Modern cholesterol from us. Unions is a modern living molecule, but what we found is actually Fussell molecule that has changed structure where we can estimate proxima how old is and the structure of the molecule fit perfectly the age and the maturity of the rock refounded in. So you're saying because we can see this slightly different form of cholesterol that is the signature of complex animal life, and it's in the context of this fossil. We think it's come from the fossil, but could there be, for instance, microorganisms living on the fossil. The themselves made this funny form of cholesterol or other organisms that are coming on since and lived around the fossil a night. Put the cholesterol there and you're saying, well, it's from the fossil, but it's not. It's something else. All right. It's a very, very good question. What we found is a little bit more. We can imagine a slip of rock in the middle of this beautiful fossil. So. Rounding the Fussell's actually fossilized microbial mats because consumer was living on the sea floor living on this microbial mats that are full of Santa bacteria and algae, and this Mets were also fossilized around the consortia. So what we did is we analyzed the molecules Indican Sonia, but also the molecules from the met surrounding concern you then we compared the two. It was a huge difference between Sonia was full of fossil cholesterol, which is typical for animals and surrounding was typical of different type of molecule which is produced by green algae. Now you have got this. You set you can say at this moment in time we've got what looks like this animal. It's not a plant. It's not a fungus is not some of these other possibilities. How does that change? Our view of what was going on almost six hundred million years ago and how that line led to us. It really changes the story how we perceive our earliest animal ancestors when and how they evolved now that we know that they can Sonia actually wasn't animal and probably many of those idiot animals. We know that there was already an enormous animal ecosystem been five minute seventy and five hundred forty million years ago, but they were very peaceful animals. There were most Tarrin's none of these fossils has bite marks or predation marks, and then but five hundred and forty million years ago. Those peaches died out and modern type animals appeared. And it's actually quite possible that the modern type animals drove those idiot to extinction. By simply eating them dog eat dog world, even then wasn't it. You'll can Bronx there from the Australian National University and the paper that described that work has just come out in the journal science. Now the noble prizes show the very best of human scientific endeavor. But have you heard of the ignoble prizes they've just been announced and Adam Murphy has been speaking to one of this year's winners. Every year. The Nobel prize is awarded the most humanity advancing breakthroughs the pinnacle of a chief -ment, but they're not what's really important. The ignoble prizes are awarded the science that makes you laugh before it makes you think prizes this year we're taking home for analyzing the potential of saliva as cleaning fluid and for the effectiveness of employees using voodoo dolls against their bosses. But what else wins that kind of prize? I got to speak to one of this year's winners. James Cole of the university of Brighton about the work that earned. him such a persistent honor. I was looking at trying to date the calorific value of the human body, but in the context of looking at pay excites and human evolution that is to say, did ancient humans eat people? Is that nutritionally useful? Or does it cost you an arm and leg? So we know from the correct word that human cannibalism seems to be at least a persistent behavior through our evolutionary journey. One of the the oldest sites that we have goes back almost a million years now, we have a relatively small fossil record, and even within that small fossil record, we still see signs on bones, cut marks, lumber cage, even teeth marks that demonstrate that this cannibalism baby was present. What is unclear though is exactly why this behavior was done. If you compare the calories that you get from a human body, which is what my study was trying to work out to animals that we know successfully hunted by our ancestors. Light in the end, the towel. So this is things like whole. So bison mammoth, even I would see him that we actually aren't terribly calorie rich in comparison to those big animals in the amount of calories you get from a human being seems to fall kind of way you would expect for an animal of our size, but we are just much smaller than a horse or a cow or obviously mammoth hell. Did you work out the content of a human being yes or no? No humans were harmed during the course of the study. But effectively, what I did is I looked at some studies that were done in the forties in the fifties looked at the chemical composition of the human body, and they broke down various body parts into its various chemical components and part of that where protein and fat values. And if you have protein and fat values along with body weight, you can work out calories with your egg Nobel prize. How did that come about? How did you find out you had one. Thus, it was really quite a wonderful process really. So in April, I. Got a very mysterious Email friends in Boston are interested in talking to you, and this is what Marc Abrahams really does. Who's the ignoble person in charge is that they send out offers of invitation to accept the award in case anybody size. That's not something that they would quite like. Thankfully, as he says in his welcome speeches and things pretty much everybody always accepts. But there is always a chance to turn it down personally. I was extremely own it. I'm very pleased to have been off the war because the ignoble stand for scientific studies that I think in their catchphrase make you laugh and then make you think. And whilst I wasn't necessarily out to make people laugh with my study, I was definitely out to made them think so. I was really pleased that sort of had been recognized on that. Cannibalisms always going to be a controversial subject in the subject of interest and slightly left field. So it's great that that was recognized in that way. And this work is no exception. There's some real meat to this story to the more that we can understand our ancestors and. Even our own species in deep time, the more that we can really understand who we are today and how we go here and understanding can only to a better future and hopefully a more inclusive one that takes to account full complexity and range of of who we are, but are the ignoble just a silly joke or is there value to them? So the Nobels I mean, they have a huge audience. I think from last his ceremony, almost eight hundred thousand people watched that sly stream. So the Nobels had this huge reach, and that can only be good for science because science is not just about stunning in a lab coat, looking down a microscope thinking really deeply about something scientists, inquisitive, it can be fun and the ignoble really capture the essence of that in the fun and quirky way that they present them. It's signs that makes you laugh. And then think that was ignoble laureate James Colt speaking with Eddie Murphy. And if you'd like to listen to James Coles, ignoble lecture, it's available on the impropriety research website along. With the other winners and speaking of listening, you are listening to the naked scientists with Christmas on me, Georgia mills still to come, how engineers using computer games to get young people's witched onto the signs of electricity and a hundred years after the worst flu pandemic ever to hit mine kind, are we better prepared today or still cruising for biological bruising find out. But before that, the results of a study that reports dubbing one of the biggest breakthroughs yet in blood pressure, genetics has just been released scientists at Queen. Mary university of London have looked at the genetic signatures of more than a million people, and they've married their genes with their lifestyle factors and their blood pressures. The result is the identification of hundreds of new genes linked to high blood pressure, which should highlight new ways to predict who's at risk, revealed new drug treatments, and even flag up some simple home remedies that are actually surprisingly effective, Marco filled let the study. So we studied one million people most of whom are of. European history. The main components of the study was the United Kingdom by Bank, which is the jewel in Britain's crown in terms of understanding the genetic basis of disease that's half a million people. Then we combine it with other studies from cross the world, and that allowed us to reach the number of one million and it is a size of the study and the precision of the analysis that said out is to find these Los. I for the pressure. And when you look at these, these genetic regions seem to be important for blood pressure. What emerges and why does this matter? How does this affect our ability to to diagnose, manage and better manage high blood pressure? So actually measuring the blood pressure, this way would not be officiant. But what this does do is it gives us new Bala Jekyll insights into why some people's pressure a higher than others. The other correlations we found in the project will with certain treatments. So for example, we found evidence that ferry new die. Diabetic treatment, which is very effective at lowering blood sugar that has also been shown to reduce adverse heart disease and stroke. The target for that drug is a gene for, but pressure could we take that medicine and use it more often in people with high blood pressure and diabetes? So fatally treating two things at once. So this is about understanding how we can get new insights into the ball g that will allow us to develop new therapies or approaches that will improve the care of people across the world with his burgeoning epidemic of high blood pressure, but will it actually achieve that lofty goal? They mom because I put it to you. We've known about some of the genes that lead to obesity and over weight for a long time, but we've got record numbers of people on earth with problems related to carrying too much weight. So what point are we going to see this? This magic sort of translation of the genetic information that you flushing out with amazing studies. This one into. A pill. I can take means I'm not gonna have the same heart attack and stroke risk. I can give you some examples. So in our own work at mines decision, we've been working on a pathway that we discovered a few years ago and that involves chemical in our body nitric oxide. When you drink beetroot juice, just two hundred and fifty mills a beetroot juice, which contains very rich concentrations of a chemical called nitrate, which is converted in our bodies to this nitric oxide and opens up blood vessels and lowers blood pressure. We've shown now in convincing studies in people with high blood pressure. This can be taken as effectively a form of lifestyle treatment. So you can go into supermarkets as a result of this research. And by that yourself, why this is popular with patients is a patience. Do like the idea of a lifestyle modification as opposed to a just a pure chemical tablet. The other areas where this has been particularly helpful is observational made in high cholesterol which can run. And families have allowed us to invent an injection that you can give once every couple of weeks or once a month, and it profoundly lowers cholesterol. So it's not simply about discovering new things don't translate into the clinic. So if I take the average person in the population with high blood pressure, what fraction of people can I explain their high blood pressure on the basis of the genes that the your study and the ones we would in new about? Tell us an important feature of this study which makes us an incredibly good question. We estimate from this study that we've explained twenty seven percent now with all of the known findings and the new ones we report here of the influences on blood pressure. That said, though, Mulcair that's still leaves two thirds of the field open, doesn't it unaccounted for what? Where is that two thirds to three quarters of the of the cause of blood pressure? Then if you can only account with a huge study this for twenty seven percent of, I think probably the best way to. Scribe. This is the maybe many routes for people's blood pressure to be elevated. That means that the studies have been done today. Mostly we've measured the common molecular signatures are not the rare ones now with whole genome sequencing and other technologies where able to read the entire genetic code of a human and therefore we get their entire blueprint for life, and then we can measure the rare variations that could be contributing significantly. So I believe we will gain access within the next few years to the remaining missing heritage -bility about pressure that was not cool failed. And these findings were published in the journal Nature Genetics now for medicine to engineering. Engineers at the university of Cambridge of lobster, professional computer game to enable players to learn how 'electricity works called wired and software engineer Campbell and engineering technologist, Richard prog or its creators, welcome to both of you. Dumb it. I can. You just give us an overview as to what the games, like, what's it like to play? What do you do? What Jake tive? So it's a video game and you control a character who has to get to the top of a building, and she goes into various rooms. And when you go into a room, you'll find they'll be mechanical doors and platforms that can rise up and fuel cells and switches. But initially nothing moves because nothing's wide up. So what the player has to do is I wire up all the components in the room and then they can run through it pulling the switches jumping on the platforms and get out of the room. And the story is basically get through each room to escape from well. Okay. Yes. So that's the puzzles the there is a story that runs through it because the player encounters these sort of old cine projector, screens, various points, whether this slightly eccentric professor who explains about some of the electric real life than. Impart some of the learning is will. Through their. Absolutely. But you also them get find out who that professor is, what his relationship is to the player character. And the story evolves through that. I like to think of it as Papp's across between the also the rural dull tales of the unexpected hats, mixed with an open university style lecture. We'll Richard very non eccentric professor. But what was your motivation for actually doing this in the first place? Why? Why did you turn the department of engineering effectively into software house? We'll have you gone down this route. We had this opportunity through some educational project funded by the under- would trust to do something without land and to try and go in an educational direction that haven't been done before, even if it was rather high risk and we thought, wouldn't it be amazing if we could create a normal video game, which was attractive as video game, but had incited the idea of the fun of engineering problem solving in a genuine natural way. So that we would lure teenagers into solving engineering problems. Version if you like, yes, it exactly. But it is that she good as a game in its own rise Nigam not your motivation because I've played it pretty addictive. Yes. I mean, I think there's a lot of educational games tend to be delivered through the classroom, so they only ever end up having to be more fun than the lesson that they're replacing. And the whole idea with wired was saying, well, let's show the engineering genuinely fun. So let's deliver it through gaming websites instead of the classroom. So people can choose to play it. So it needs to be at least as fun as other games that people choose to play. Yes. So all the way through from the beginning been designed with fun as being as its primary driving force? Well, I asked a young person to have ago of it. Would you like to hear what. Recorded having a gun. Hello. My name's million. I'm twelve and I've just been playing this really fun game could Wyatt. You have to wire up circuits, which make doors and platforms move. So you can get around school island. What's short circuit is that you have to wire up machines correctly. You have to have a power supply to the machine, and also you can't have too many machines connected to a power supply and the more machines you have connected to a power supply, the machines will grow slower. This is a good game because learning something it's definitely fun to do when you're bored in the holidays. What did you get on the electricity route there? Richard white. Choose that subject. I think that came from interviewing students should mission over many, many years where I was surprised by how many people didn't really understand the concepts behind bolted in current, perhaps because you have to sort of get both the same time. You have to get voltage in order to get current. You have to get into nor to get voltage. I thought maybe this is something that if we could get people to feel it to experience it to actually interact with it, rather than just sit as a load of equations on paper, it might help Dermott how of people received some in my end of one study, they're receiving enthusiastic appraisal. But what about the why the community was the feedback you guessing? And also one criticism leveled the projects like this is it's one thing to do some public outrage in some engagement, but it's another to actually change people's mindsets. Have you got any sort of evidence that this is doing? What Richard saying despise to do, which is to educate people more about the scientific literacy. The game has only been out for a few weeks. So we've got so far is I guess, feedback on the gaming websites where it's been up and we've had lots of really positive messages up there. People just saying very fun and I've learned a lot. And I guess what's gratifying is that because it's up on a gaming websites, people are comparing it to other games and saying, it's a good game. It's fun, but it's not divorced in the education saying she, it's fun. I learnt stuff as well. So the informal feedback has been very positive, but I think it's too early to say yet. We haven't done formal studies about its educational effectiveness. I guess time will tell dummy Campbell and Richard prog. Thank you both very much. And if you would like to have a goal of the game wired, you can download it or you can also play it in your web browser. It is completely free. We've set up a hot linked to get there quickly, you naked scientists dot com forward slash wired. And if you'd like to follow up on any of the news stories, we've been covering this week. Transcripts on references all on our website at naked scientists dot com. The naked scientists podcast is produced an association with Spitfire cost-effective voice, internet and the IP engineering services for UK businesses. Find out how Spitfire can impel your company at Spitfire dot coach k.. You're listening to the naked scientists. I'm Christmas, she's Georgia mills, and now it's time for this. There are placed on the cuts until everybody's full and yet others crowd in the faces. Soon where bluish cast distressing cough brings up the blood stained sputum in the morning. The dead bodies are stucked about the morgue, like court would. It is absolutely ridiculous to think of yet lifting the ban on the closer public places. Everyone is worn out and people are exhausted and who would care for others who would be stricken. I've been in houses where six and seven ill in one room with no one to give them a drink, no one to help them. This sicknesses struck almost every home one, two and three in family being ill, and in many families, it has been fatal to more than one member deaths still occurring on. We're yet in great danger. The Spanish flu pandemic of nineteen eighteen was one of the deadliest disease outbreaks in human history. So in this half an hour in recognition of its Tinari and as the northern hemisphere heads into this year's new flu season, we're putting the influenza virus under the microscope, the nineteen eighteen pandemic coincided with the end of World War One, which is thought to have catalyzed the pace with which the disease took. Hold to three. What happened that year is angrier roskin university historian, Sean, Lang. Welcome Sean. What is it called? Spanish flu is turbo unfair because he didn't start in Spain at all events. Pain was no more inflected than anywhere else, but because the war was on when it started among, for example, American troops and when it's on the way in Germany, of course, they didn't want the other side to know of a weakness so they didn't report it. Spain was neutral in the war. So there's no particular reason to hold back. And so the first major reports came after Spain and everyone assumed it started that she didn't. So they were. They were being honest, and they all the blame. Absolutely. Yes. They did try to blame me from the Portuguese incidentally. The didn't take and how many people did it affect? How far around the world did. It spread spilled absolutely around world every continent. There are major breaks. For example, in Western Samoa population was decimated Lasker North America, all across Europe, Asia, very, very badly, affected terms of them. People died. This argument about figures because it's not easy to get accurate death figures because not everyone kept from, nevertheless, we reckon it's about fifty million upwards. The highest estimates put hundred million probably was fifty seventy million that night, but that into context, the total of debts in the first World War is about seventeen million. And of course, these fifty plus million who died all within the space of a year in other is very concentrated compared with the the first of all, which causes spread over one hundred fourteen to nineteen eighteen. So it's absolutely devastating, and there's no part of the. Twelve really, which is immune right in people just sort of made it through one of the biggest wars in history of the world. And then this hits us, absolutely yes. Of course you can most of the soldiers coming home at the end of the war in November ninety eighteen there. And so you get people who have come home as you say, the wall unexpecting out into a piece. Of course, their families expecting to have them home after the war, and then the death comes. So it's absolutely tragic because you have plenty people who can't you survive, but because they're debilitated as well. So it is an absolutely global tragedy. No question. And it's been mentioned that this as pandemics go is the sort of the big hitter. Was this linked with the wall? Yes and no. Clearly the areas, like for example, midwest America on China, where you can't really blame the fate of war example haven't caught population. We can naval blockade or even go to the direct influence of the war. On the other hand where you do have that where you have the population in Germany, for example, which is very badly hit and you got a popular. It was very, very badly we could because of the naval blockade which cut a food supplies, then it's clearly seems to have lured people's natural resistance to it. So yes, it's it's linked to the water doesn't seem to have been caused by the war. Right. And who is elected the worst either fli now this court people aren't because the medical thirties tend to seem that the obvious candidates would be children or old people. So quite often fix Cambridge. You have schools shutdown or children excluded from places public entertainment, this sort of thing. But actually in this really cold amount, it was young people apparently in the prime of health who were the most vulnerable. So young men young women in that twenties. So it really did catch that. Of course, it meant that the measures that we're taking weren't very effective because aimed at the wrong people. So, yeah, am frayed is of healthy young men and women in that twenties and worry. Worry a little bit, right. Was there any treatment or medicine around at the time because they didn't really know what was causing it. There's no sort of one effective measures taken. There was a sort of vaccination that was that was used or at least it was a preparation, and it doesn't have some success against the cases which will into pneumonia, but he didn't actually have and against the flu, but they want everything in Cambridge, those a wonderful thing from the doctor's name, but he was his pink pills, take pink pills and you'll be fine. The lots of advice is simply go to bed quarantine organic, keep away from the people keep away from crowded areas. Get the windows open. And my favorite one which I discovered advertised was Bovril. Actually advertise it self as rendering you influence a proof, how did they get? Did we know? Was it just was it just marketing. I suppose the idea that because people tend to think of flu as being like a bad cold in the very often people go to bad cold and they say they got which they haven't, but they, they got that sort of Lincoln people's minds. So you night is that you go to bed with, you know, nice hot drink. It'll see you through. So I think that's really what's going on there. Thank you very much. Sure. We'll hear more from you later, but for now, let's Ruskin university historian shoreline. What actually is the flu? That's the key question, isn't it? Wendy. Barklay is of religious that Imperial College in London, say, flu is a disease caused by virus. The influenza virus that virus gets into our bodies when we breathe in droplets from somebody else who's been infected by the virus. And then those droplets containing the virus go down into our nose and throat and into our deep along perhaps and like all viruses is an absolute parasite. So it has to actually get inside ourselves. And once the virus is inside ourselves, it takes over the cells. Reproduces itself kills the cell and then thousands of new viruses copies of the original come out and spread and how does it actually make us ill? Why do we feel so godly when we've got it, I think there were two ways. Some of the first symptoms are sore throat that could well be just because the virus in replicating in those first few cells in your throat have killed that important protective barrier which normally protects from incoming daas particles cetera. And if you haven't got those working, then all those dust particles which are in the air can really hurt as they land on the nerves below. But the other reason that you feel so really bad with flu is that your own immune system recognizes that these cells of been invaded by virus and response by releasing chemical messengers. And they also at the same time as telling the cells where to come in use fever. And aches and pains. Lethargy, feeling hot because your blood is now full of all these chemicals which have been released from the infected cells and are trying to signal to other immune cells to come and help. Now worded flu come from in the first place. So all flu viruses are not humid tool. They are bird viruses. There are lots and lots of different types of flu which means that antibodies against one wouldn't protect you against another. And they're all out. There least sixteen of them sitting in the wild birds, the world docs and geese and also see birds that migrate through very large distances but also live in huge colonies. Fantastic place reverse to hang out because it's always new hosts for it to infect it actually is a virus infects the intestines of those birds. And it comes out into the water, the birds land on the lakes and the water in the legs is full of flu viruses at the boats can drink and take and get reinfected. So how to get from being a bird virus. To being a human virus. And when did that happen? Do you think we know from historical records that pandemics? Probably a flu virus happened thousands of years ago, probably when humans started living in larger numbers in cities, how does of are transformed from being a bird flew into a human flu is the matter of intense research because it will help us ultimately predict the chances upon them happening. And it's certainly not a single step. There are at least three changes and probably more that a bird virus would need to make to be a successful human virus. And it's bit like rolling dice if you won't get three six all at once. That's not the most likely and therefore we don't get pandemics all that often, but out there in nature that dice being rolled over time, is it fair to summarize them? So will we've got this flu viruses started off in birds. At some point, it jumped into humans and. We ended up with human forms of flu, which which we keep on handing onto each other year on year, but there remains this enormous reservoir bird viruses that periodically can do that jump again. And when they do that jump again, then we get a new kind of flu in humans. That's absolutely it. I mean, certainly what we know is that in one thousand nine hundred eighteen virus came across that had recent ancestry in birds became a human virus and then stayed with humans for the next three or four decades. And do we know what factors? Probably encouraged that jump in nineteen eighteen to make that virus seed into humans and produce that devastating, pandemic, we don't know for sure whether or not the circumstances that were present in nineteen eighteen with a perfect storm if you like for that virus to make that jump. Certainly, there are theories that when so many young men were moved into these huge army. Camps and lived in very close quarters. The chances of virus accumulating the right numbers of mutations and then spreading onwards to others were increased. So there is some theory that that special circumstance allowed the virus to emerge in that way. Number of people have looked the cross section of the population who succumbed to the nineteen eighteen flu in it looked to bit unusual because in most winters, you get lots of young people in lots of elderly vulnerable people who succumb to flu. But with this with lots of privacy, Halen, haughty, young people dying of this. Why would there be that difference? Yes, a really excellent question. I think there are two main theories. The first is the site kind storm theory. So that says that much of the symptoms of flu in human is down to the person's own immune system. As we've discussed, sort of sending out those chemical signals and responding to the viral infection and. In one thousand nine hundred eighteen flu infections. Those responses may well have been inappropriately big. If that's the case, people who are the healthiest and would make the biggest immune response of the people. He would get very sick. So twenty five to forty five year olds with their healthy immune system kind of overreacted. And consequently ended up that the lungs were full of of inflammatory cells. The other theory relies very much on this idea which is quite popular at the moment of the flu that you experience in your very early life kind of sets the scene for the rest of your life and affects the way you respond to subsequent flus. And so if we historically traced back to win, we're previous pandemics recorded in the world. Certainly in eighteen eighty nine. We think there was a previous flu pandemic, and that may have somehow set the scene for people to respond differently to the next Pundak virus. That came along that. That was Wendy barklay from Imperial College. London Hsun Lang is still with us. She wants. So right now, we see a lot of this time of year saying, you know, get vaccinated for the flu. When did the idea vaccines dont when did this stop being used to tackle the flu, the flu? It's not really till the nineteen thirties when the volume is finally identified and and scenes are on offer. The trouble is that vaccination had very attitudes then from what we have nowadays nowadays, yes, you can encourage people going get your flu. But a, we've got sort of knowledge and because we got the NHS whereas in the nineteen thirties that been a lot of distance to vaccination programmes run by government, not so much in this country for a long time, but out in other parts of the empire example, they'd be very, very serious resistance to play a measures taken in India. So it was something that governments were relatively wary about imposing. It's on author Rahvam being actually being doled out probably surround vaccination. Mindsets, not anew thing. No stole no. No. I mean, because right way back to the days of Edward Jenner and people sort of thought he was mad to post the natural disease into you, and you got some cartoons, new ego, people sort of thinking there for it would have cans strapping out of your arms. But MAURICE only or other say, more recently historian thinking, eighty eighty fairly recent to me, but there was this in a very, very strong attitude on the part of governments as particularly in in colonial governments and also to the poor that the idea was that this sort of dirt to seize was somehow your fault and that the state would tell you what you ought to be doing with yourself. And there was resistance to it was rent resentment, so it's very politically sensitive. The whole issue vaccination then are now thank you very much Sean now, one very powerful way. We can't defend ourselves cost Israel, USA vaccines. The way these work is they educate the immune system so it can recognize an infection in the future. They contain components, viruses bacteria, and these stimulate the production of immune molecules which. Antibodies. Now, this means that if the infection is encountered four real later, these stick onto the incoming disease agents and they smother them blocking the infection. But how awfully vaccines that we use today actually made is e Clark went to meet Ottmar Engelhardt who's at the National Institute for biological standards and control. They're responsible for checking the quality in the safety of UK medicines and treatments fluids very special case because flu viruses change constantly. So if you're given a vaccine in a particular year, you endured an immune response use antibodies against the viruses of that year. But the virus evolves changes and tries extra to escape the immune response in the population. So one or two years later virus will look differently. It will have different if you wanted different coat, what's likely different, maybe patterns on its coat, and therefore d- the antibodies are not so good at recognizing it anymore, and you need to induce new antibodies. And that's why you give a new vaccine every year to keep up with. The changes in the virus. And that's the pesky thing about the flu virus. You can get vaccinated against flu, but it can change and evolve or as explains disguise itself. And so our immune system doesn't always react and attack it, which is why vaccines are so important, but how do we make them? It was off to the lab. We are in a room where we have incubators and fridges to keep chicken eggs, chicken eggs. What if they got to do with the flu, some viruses and influence of ours in particular role, very well in ambulance, chicken eggs, and its technology for influence that was developed in the forties. Can we see any of these eggs? We haven't to here with uninfected exe. Quite woman mix one. There are slightly different from your normal that you buy in your supermarkets. We shine a strong light through the then you can see the interior the box that you using to shine this light let she just looks like a bit like an old cinema projector, I felt we're going to get the slides. Yes, it's very simple and you put the egg in front of it and all of a sudden you see the interior. Oh my goodness, that's amazing. Concede blood vessels, the egg basically lights up to a sort of orange ready color, and we can see all of these small blood vessels going to it. Okay. So how do we take an egg and then actually get a flu vaccine by the end of it. Okay. So you need a flu virus to start with. So you take viruses from patients which you analyze year round and you pick the ones that are most appropriate to be in the vaccine. And then we use a syringe to inject the virus. These viruses often don't grow well in x. so you need to change unit to manipulate them so that they grow better. And there are a few laps in in the world and one of our lab that does this process to change the is so that they can grow well inex-. So we inject this virus into an egg, and then. What happens. Okay. So the virus has grown Indiana. So you have life virus in the the main fluid in the you can harvest this fluid from the egg which is not yet suitable for vaccine. So you need to further processing steps. So you want to get rid of some of the components. But you also want to concentrate the virus so that you have a higher mount of inactivated virus to induce an immune response. And in many cases, there's further purification involved to enrich the components that you actually want the vaccine, the coat of the virus that induce the relevant antibodies so much of this, axon. Could you get from one egg not very much, probably one or two doses, depending on the yield. Say, we're going to need a lot of eggs to save the whole of the UK. Yes, it's millions the most reliable way, but what are some of the weaknesses to this method? One dependence on x. So if the chicken. Locks were wiped out by a chicken disease. There wouldn't be a substrate to make vaccine. So that would be a problem, and he's an ex, is this the only way we can produce vaccines? No, it isn't. There are other methods in recent years manufacturers started to you cell or tissue culture to make vaccine. So they using sales in fact them with virus harvest virus again. And then the process is very similar to the based process, and it was after a lab to explored this alternative method cell culture. I don't think like it's where Kurtz. Let me to a corner of the room that had three incubators. They actually like high-tech many fridges, but they'd be the worst ever considering at thirty seven degrees celsius. And then he pulled out a rather surprising classic container. The plastic locks, which the cells inside I wouldn't expect to get to look a bit like a clear hit. So we've got this, this plastic contain with this orangey looking liquid through it. What is actually in here? Okay. On one of the larger surfaces of this floss, the cells I touched to the surface and then we have a liquid medium which keeps the south happy, gives the nutrients we can take off the liquid on top, wash the cells, and then take virus in a small volume, put it on at some more medium and the virus will infect the cells in the flask, and we put them back into the incubator and two or three days later we can come and the viruses will have destroyed the cells and will be found in the liquid where we can harvest liquid and then to the virus what we need to do. Now, that seems more straightforward method than say, all of the eggs. It is a more modern way and some other vaccines made in in cell culture other than influence of hours. I'm sure this will be a method that increases in use, whether it will be the main method will. Have to see. So whether of accidents are using fertilized egg order itself, coach exactly needs these acts in, should we all be getting them? Many people need to in front of action. Different countries have different vaccine recommendations in the UK is recommended that the elderly getting vaccine every year. It's also recommended that at risk groups of young age, certain conditions, heart conditions, lung conditions, diabetes get the vaccine every year to protect them from influence where in these people, it can create more severe disease and also children. There's now a program in the UK of vaccination for children that is expanding and lots of children are getting the vaccine. Fascinating stuff that was ach, my ankle hearts, and he was speaking with Zeke clock. Now Sean, our pandemics like this, something we have to deal with very often. Can you tell us about some of the other big pandemics that have hit since nineteen eighteen? Luckily, not too often. We haven't had anything quite on the scale of of the. Spanish, Spanish story of flu outbreak. But of course, there have been a major breaks in the second all in the conditions of the will. You have things like that breaks typhus in camps on that sort of thing. But in MAURICE, only the biggest one of course, was aids in the nineteen eighties of starting in the nineteen eighties. And then we've had caused the bird flu outbreak. And more recently, I suppose Ebola I am. So if the the age of of the pandemic nor any hasn't passed. But the judgment is that it's probably likely not say inevitable. They'll be another major flu outbreak, which I hope from sound what we've been having would be better prepared on. They were nine hundred eighteen but you can ever be complacent, right. Yeah, that's quite scary. 'cause you think these, these are things from the past. A lot of the pandemics you just mentioned are in very recent years. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. It's not just going back into long long ago and because it is always changing. And so the different variants of flu and we tend to put a lot of faith. Of course, we just think signs will solve it, but because the. Diseases, viruses response to it. And so new strains come in and above. All, I would say you've got to have international cooperation and the more that becomes under strain, the heart, it will be right. So constant vigilance and cooperation. Thank you very much Sean. Now, as we've heard every human strains of the flue go circulating around the world and as they do so they subtly change their appearance. So this means we need to update the vaccines so that we make the immune system still able to recognize them. So how does scientists know what to put into these new vaccines and went to make those changes? Derrick Smith vice is the World Health Organization on this very topic. He's based zoology department, the inverse of Cambridge, it's really remarkable global effort orchestrated by the World Health Organization to do this through thousands of people around the world in GP offices, and in hospitals who see people come in with respiratory diseases that look like they could be flu take a throat swab, and that swab is sent to their national influence essential in that country. The. Strains that are analyzed to see if they really offline. If they are that sent to one of five international WHO collaborating centres, Tokyo one in Melbourne, Australia, Beijing, China, Atlanta in the US and in the UK in London. The Crick institute there the strains, ran allies in great detail in terms of how they differ from other viruses and how our immune systems will see them different. Now, when you say you analyzing the, what are you looking for? How do you tell one strain of flu apartment other? This is the key question. First of all, it is laboratory work to test whether or not strains of flu that are already in the vaccine will be protective against the new strains of flu that may be emerging across the world. I see. So I send you say that I got from Joe Bloggs and you're asking, does the vaccine produce antibodies in someone? I give it to that if they met that virus tomorrow. It would stop it. That's exactly right. And as well as this happening locally in over one hundred thirty countries worldwide, these five international centers coordinate this and do all the laboratory work and then collaborate with our laboratory here at the university of Cambridge, were we also look at them with mathematical and computational methods to track the evolution of these viruses for the purpose of keeping that vaccine strain updated on a practical level healthy. You actually do those experiments to know if the vaccine is going to defend me against that particular strain. I got from Joe Bloggs last week. Is that somebody physically with a test tube and sin viruses themselves growing these things improving? Yes. The immune responsible will stop Christmas from catching this virus. That's absolutely right. It's twenty thousand viruses a year tested in exactly that way to see whether or not those strikes can protect Christmas this year. So it's guesswork them because. You're getting samples that are doing the rounds now, but this is going to inform the vaccines. You're gonna make, you know into the future. This is absolutely the key thing in some ways. It's absolutely not guesswork because this is a very well oiled machine and comprehensive surveillance and very good analysis. But the point that you raise the virus has sixty eight months to go do it on in those intervening in that intervening time and may evolve such that the strain that's in the vaccine is no longer a perfect match. The four major types of flu that circulate there's a strain of flu for each of those in the vaccine. And when there is one of these mismatches, it's typically just for one of those types of flu that one component of the vaccine. That one fourth of the vaccine protecting against one fourth of this rains that are circulating doesn't do as well as we would like it to do, and people are not as well protected against getting. Affected even in those cases, they are protected against the other three strains of flu mainstream that circulate. They're also typically protected against severe disease. From that other strain, they may still get a cold or something that feels more like a cold that less likely to die or end up in hospital. Can you use maths or or other techniques to try and -ticipant what the next move might be on the part of the virus baps informed by what's happened in the past to make your guesswork or submit better? Absolutely. And this is a research program that we have been doing for something like fifteen years now to see we can understand what are the deep evolution re processes that are going on? What are the constraints or other constraints on how the virus might evolve? And it turns out that there are constraints to the extent that we think that we can predict this. And there is a new generation of flu vaccines that that are being produced were the strain that's in the vex. Gene is not the best Representative of the strain that circulating in February, but is actually an educated guess of what's going to circulate the following year. These vaccines that will enter clinical trials in about two years from now. It's a bit like when you're driving down the motorway, you should always look at the car not directly in front, but the one in front of the car in front because you see the brake lights go on on that one before the car in front of us going to break. And so it gives you advance warning. You're sort of saying, what if I look at what the viruses doing now, and then I second guess ROY is going to be later. I'll get a much more accurate picture. This is exactly what's happening and and for me, it's really beautiful integration of of basic science, evolutionary biology and fantastic's Valence because the other thing that we have when we drive down the motorway is we have the experience of doing this before and because there is this great surveillance over so many years. One can go back and do retrospective studies. To imagine that it is nineteen eighty nine and then see if we can predict what happens in nineteen ninety in one thousand nine hundred one ninety two and know whether or not the methods of working on and erica's promised me. He's coming back in two years time when the clinical trial launches and tell us how he's getting on that was professor Jerry Smith. Thank you to my other guesses week. We had Sean Lang, Wendy Barclay and Otmar ankle hot and now to finish. It's time for question of the week and not a Murphy has been stuck on this question from Tom. Why is blue sticky blue tack is everywhere probably in every home and every office holding up our posters on our notices, but figuring out what's in this puts us in something of a sticky situation to learn more. I spoke to Jennifer Gakuen a researcher in Dublin, City University. We don't know exactly what blue tech is made of because it's a trade secret, but we do know that contain something called hydrocarbon. Palmer's hydrocarbon polymers are included in most clues at our what turns blue. Back into an adhesive polymers, which are molecules. The form these long chains do tend to be quite sticky because from a chemical point of view, they have a lot of hydrogen on their surface which likes to form very strong physical bums with anything that they touch. So that's part of it, but it's not the whole sticky story. It's actually the squishy nature of the blue tack. That's the real trick, though. Blue tech is put like substance that's movable and able to four blue tech seeps into any little indents on the surface that it's sticking to. This makes it even stickier, but might be whether still blue talk on the walls from posters, the covered my childhood bedroom. So when you press hard enough, it forms a very smooth flat surface against your service and pushes all the air. This creates a vacuum, which is a very difficult thing to break. It's like when you stuck to west lasts together, the water pushes all the air out and it's very difficult to pull them apart. Again, you have to. Twist them apart or distrupt the water somehow or just like a plunger. This also explains why blue tack Dawson feels sticky. I in your hand, but does get stickier the more you handle it because it's starting to fill all those nooks and crannies getting you into a sticky situation. Thank you, Jennifer. I'm sure everyone was glued to their speakers next week. We'll be talking this muddy question from Daniel. If I stand in the shallow end of women bowl, don't feel the pressure of the water around my legs. But if I put my one is on stand in deep puddle, I do feel the pressure of the water mine our legs. Why is this will have an answer to that question that won't dampen your spirits next week. If you have an answer or a new question, you'd like us to look into go ahead and Email, Chris, the naked scientists dot com. You can also find some Facebook tweet at naked scientists or join in the debate off forum. That's the naked scientists dot com slash form. So we've got time for thank you for listening and do join us next time when we're going to be diving into the world of cosmetics. Meanwhile, thank you to add Murphy and Zeke log for putting the show together. The naked scientists comes to from Cambridge University where it supported by the EPS see and Rolls Royce. I'm Chris Smith until next time. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Bye. 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