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Oklahoma City Bombing, Part 3

The First Degree

50:25 min | 10 months ago

Oklahoma City Bombing, Part 3

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It's the extremists that are the back people your neighbor can be joining a ball. Welcome to the first degree, the true crime podcast a you might end up on my name is Jack Panic I'm sitting very far away from Alexis linkletter and Billie Johnson, and before we jump into this episode, this week's episode is the conclusion of our three part series on the horrific Oklahoma. City bombing story. So if you've missed the last two weeks, stop right now and go back and listen to parts one and two. But what day is it today billy before we jump in its International Bathtub Day oh ooh. That's when I can get behind. Do you know that the earliest bathtub dates to seventeen hundred BC and it was found in? Crete. Thank you checking in. Wow that is a fun fact I. Am not a big bath taker I get too hot. And I can't impro- knee and I just can't stay in their long. It's not for me. It's not relaxing well, you know what? I enjoy a good bath. This is what I do on. Sundays. I have the new. York Times I have a cigar. I read The New York Times in the bath with my cigar I cannot tell if you're being serious or you're being a poser. I think about every day I mean this is common knowledge every night I take some mornings I do also sometimes I take day I know you're a bad ticker I can't remember the last time I've taken a bath. It was probably fifteen years ago. Water me. For Shower? Talking, about lack sorry that was that was a failed billy I. Really. Okay once again, Bill is not funny. All right. Well, that's enough of that to let them of the Earth. So good one belly. Let's turn again still not funny. Lester number lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be you. Off the Oklahoma City bombing occurred in nineteen, ninety five, the investigation was the most time consuming and the FBI history. By the time it came to a close the bureau had conducted more than twenty thousand interviews in followed some forty three thousand investigative leads. Amassed three and a half tons of evidence and reviewed nearly a billion pieces of information. and. Our last episodes we've introduced to you Raanan Megan, both of whom whose lives were forever changed on the heels of this bombing. Last. Week, we took you through the events that led to the capture of the mastermind of this horrific act of violence Timothy McVeigh. But even with his arrest, the story was far from over because it's one thing to identify the culprit. But how and why still to be addressed in the biggest question at this point. Did he act alone right and here's what we know. By April Twenty First Timothy McVeigh was the lead suspect in the bombing when investigators connected him to the Ryder truck that was stuff to the brim of explosives and parked outside the building right before the explosion. And? One, thousand, nine, hundred, Eighty, eight was a significant year for McVeigh for two important reasons. The first this was the year that he enlisted in the US. Army at twenty years old and the second reason is because in the army, he met a man who became a close friend of his and this man's name was Terry Nichols and why is Terry Nichols significant? Because forty year old Terry Nichols would ultimately turn himself into law enforcement for his role in the plot. And he did so in Herington Kansas. So what was nichols role in the plot and how did he and McVeigh met? Funded Nichols arrest his home was searched and law enforcement found blasting caps detonating courts, ground ammonium, nitrate barrels made of plastic similar to fragments found at the bombing site. That's not all they also found thirty three firearms. anti-government warfare literature a receipt for ammonium nitrate fertilizer with McVeigh's fingerprints on it. A telephone credit card that McVeigh had used when he was shopping for bomb making equipment. And a hand drawn map of downtown. Oklahoma City. So all of that adds up and it shows that Nichols had a significant hand in the bombing. So what do we know about Terry Nichols Nichols was born in Michigan and when he met mcvay in nineteen, eighty eight in the army, he was the oldest guy in the platoon and the pair's friendship blossomed over their shared interest. In similar backgrounds they both grew up in rural area as they both were college dropouts and they both came from broken homes. They also both collected guns in both shared similar political views in one, thousand, nine, hundred, nine Nichols requested a quote unquote hardship discharge from the military. Then in nineteen ninety, he married a mail order bride who was from the Philippines. But there's kind of a plot twist here when she arrived she was pregnant with someone else's baby. oops I guess you know it's a crapshoot when you get a mail order bride and that's what happened. But why is this significant to our story? Well, because this baby was ultimately born but when this baby was two years old. He died by suffocating in a plastic bag while Terry Nichols was babysitting him. So Nichols wife suspected foul play. But since there were no bruises or any real signs of physical trauma on this child, the death was ultimately ruled accidental. and. Despite the fact, the couple went on to have two more children together. and. We're going to switch back gears to McVeigh the same year that Humid Terry Nichols in nineteen, eighty eight. He also became a member of the National Rifle Association the NRA and we'll nichols left the military McVeigh did not he served in the Gulf War and he rose in the ranks being promoted to corporal to sergeant and then platoon leader. Fellow soldiers who served with McVeigh recalled his infatuation with reading the Turner Diaries, and this book is a racist anti-semitic novel about a soldier in the underground army. And while he was in the army, it mcvay filled to qualify for the special. Forces program and this is because he was unable to do a ninety minute march with a forty five pound pack and following the failure. He accepted an early discharge offer and left in the fall of nineteen ninety one. In the four years following his discharge mcvay reconnected with Nichols the Para sold military surplus materials at gun shows then one thousand nine. Another significant event occurred. That began to scope the dangerous ideology that McVeigh would adapt. April Nineteenth Nineteen, ninety-three, Waco, Texas. So in February of ninety three ATF agent went to serve a warrant at the branch Davidian. Compound. And they were there because the Davidians were stockpiling a lot of weapons and ammunition. They go to serve the warrant. It doesn't go. Well, there's a firefight. Six members of the Davidians and for ATF agents are killed. and. Then they drop back and a siege begins and it's fifty. One days is how long the siege takes But it's not be coordinated by the FBI. The siege ends when authority storm the compound with tear-gas. Davidians lit the building on fire and seventy six people died including twenty five children. Now McVeigh Nichols. They were together as they watched the standoff between the Davidians the ATF. And mcvay even travel to Waco. So angry with the siege. mcvay became obsessed with the fear that the government could take away people's guns. The germination of their plan for the bombing began in September of ninety four when the duo rented a storage shed and began gathering supplies for the truck bomb, it ultimately built they stole dynamite and blasting caps from a rock quarry. The following month in McVeigh and Nichols laid out their plans to bomb a federal building in. Oklahoma. City. And they drew a diagram showing how they plan to put this bomb together and they laid out their entire plan on paper and they did this and their friends living room and their friends name was Michael Forty. So mcvay tried to recruit for to help with this plan and asked him to help with mixing the bombs components in help station, a getaway car, but this friend refused. So for the most part, it's commonly believed that Forte knew about the plan but refused to partake but also did nothing to stop it. So on April sixteenth three days before the bombing McVeigh and Nichols drove to Oklahoma City to drop off the getaway car the same one that McVeigh was pulled over in and ultimately arrested in. Then as we know, they were successful in this delusional senseless active evil. So, to pinpoint are summarize McVeigh's motives, it's complex but never to make, it's a sankt McVeigh claimed he targeted the building to avenge this raid that occurred on Waco and the reason he zeroed in on the offered p Murrah building was to target the ATF office that was located in this building, and it's also because the ATF was the branch of the government who initially served a warrant to the branch, Davidian. Ranch in February of ninety three and people like our first degrees Ron who lost his wife and Megan who almost lost her mother struggled to wrap their minds around the motives of McVeigh and Nichols. That asshole heart truck. Right on. Side of the building I guess he's trying to go after the ATF. Gas. They were on the other side of the building. But. He's parked it right in front of the building and and as he because he's surveys this building he walked right by the daycare was right there. Well little kids were and that's where he parked truck and it and it. You know if you look at that thing, sheared that side of the building. It wasn't nature versus nurture at all. It was nurtured. He was born into this culture. He was part of this compound outright right extremist. He said he's anti-government but this group that he was with with the Patriots, he winds about you know Waco and these innocent lives, and then he winds about being and Iraq and having to shoot people and. He, goes home. And does. This, it was because he was born into hatred he. That culture that he was living in these compounds these. Radical list I don't care. What type of radical issue are the word radical list is? Dangerous. McVeigh and Nichols were both charged with eleven counts the first three or for conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction to kill persons destroy federal property for using a truck bomb to kill people and for malicious destruction of federal property resulting in death. The remaining eight counts for violating federal murder statute that punishes the killing of federal law enforcement officials one count for each of the eight law enforcement officers killed in the blast. And by this point, Ronn had gone through countless stages of grief and by the time the court proceedings began he had had enough. I got stabbed. I'm not going to be part of any of this I got I got a job to do people are looking at me I mean I would go to like when they had visit somewhere president or whatever they send agents from the field to go an augment the protection details. And I would walk into these. Won't be looking at me as far as the trials are concerned Michael Forty agreed to testify against McVeigh and Nichols in exchange for reduced. Sentence. So, he pleaded guilty to four lesser counts of transporting stolen firearms conspiracy to transport firearms. Lying Federal officials and have known about the crime and failing to report it. McVeigh's trial was moved to Colorado, after a ruling said that he couldn't get a fair trial in Oklahoma. The family of two hundred, seventy victims were notified but only sixteen mothers, wives, daughters and grandfathers chose to speak in open court of the effect the crime had on their lives. One hundred, sixty, three witnesses presented. One, hundred and thirty seven for the prosecutors twenty-five for the defense. And the prosecutor Joseph Hartzler he began his opening statement by reminding the jury of the terror and the heartbreak of that day. Here's what he said Ladies and gentlemen of the jury April Nineteenth Nineteen ninety-five was a beautiful day in Oklahoma City. At least it started out as a beautiful day. The Sun was shining flowers are blooming. It was springtime in Oklahoma City. The argued, the McVeigh was only a player, a large conspiracy whether that was middle, eastern terrorists or right-wing supremacist groups. Defense attorneys claim the government conducted a hasty investigation and this was all BS. There's a lot happening around us right now, and if you're looking to just check out for a little bit or do a little binge, have a little fun. You need to check out best fiends I've talked about best seen so many times on this podcast. If you go to our facebook group, you can search best beans and see how much the first East freaking love it. So best means is the infamously impossible to put down puzzle game with over one hundred, million downloads and counting it's free to download and it has literally millions of five. Star reviews on the apple APP store and Google play. There's more levels, events and challenges that get added all the time. So play away, there's always one more level and seriously once you download best beans, boredom won't stand a chance and we all love a good challenge and best female gives you five thousand of them I play all the time. 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You can consolidate your debt in one easy fixed rate payment and makes it fast and simple to check your rate since it's just. A soft poll, it won't affect your credit score and the best part if the loan is approved and accepted, most people get their funds. The very next business day over four hundred, thousand people have used upstart to pay off credit cards or meet financial goals. So upset has a four point nine out of five rating on trust pilot and hurried upstart dot com slash first degree to find out how low your upstart rate can be checking. Your eight only takes a few minutes that's upstart dot com slash first degree here loan amount will be determined based on your credit income and other certain information provided in your loan application not Alaba console qualify for the full amount. We bore you with the INS and outs of this trial, but we do want to draw your attention to part of forty as testimony. A one point the prosecution asked him quote did you have any discussion about the deaths that such a bomb would cause forte responded I asked him about that I said quote what about all the people he said that McVeigh responded and said. Using the term movie star Wars mcvay explained to him that he considered all of those people as if they were stormtroopers in the movie star wars, he may be individually innocent but because they are part of the evil empire, they were they were guilty by association or I'm going to step in right here with this. This by the way is a line also from clerks. And clerks I believe happened after this but still the idea of well these people that were working in the. on the death star they were working on it, and then they got blown up might of you know they were still supporting this 'cause. I hate the fact that they use that. You know we know a lot about the history of the stormtroopers I can go on forever I'm GonNa Stop Right now but screw this guy. Fest Guy. So Timothy McVeigh was found guilty of all eleven counts of murder conspiracy and using a weapon of mass destruction McVeigh's expressionless at the defense table as the verdict was read. Terry Nichols was found guilty on one count of conspiracy and eight counts of involuntary manslaughter. McVeigh was sentenced to death and Nichols, was sentenced to life at a supermax federal prison after the jury was deadlocked over the decision of the death penalty. However. Feeling to get the death penalty in federal court people in Oklahoma crash the state to intervene and during that trial, Nichols was convicted on one hundred and sixty one counts of first degree murder including fetal homicide. He then received one hundred and sixty one consecutive life terms in prison. McVeigh asked a federal judge to stop all appeals of his convictions. And set a date for his execution. There's probably the only noble thing that he ever could have done. I disagreed because almost like he did it to be a martyr. Right like I think he positioned himself like he didn't eat before he he he did it to like. Get people to rally behind him for his all right shit and could also banned that he ultimately decided his fate at the end where it was like a control thing I think so yeah. Point. So it was ultimately set for June eleven of two thousand and one and his execution would be held in. Terre. Haute Indiana. As the first federal prisoner to be put to death there since nineteen sixty three. So at seven am. He was dressed in a shirt khaki pants and slip on shoes. And a restrict teams strapped him to a Gurney within the execution chamber. Thirty People Directly Watch McVeigh's final moments. While another three hundred victims and relatives gathered in Oklahoma City to watch the event on closed circuit. TV. Now, the broadcasting of his execution on closed circuit TV, with something that history had never been done before. And to note his last meal. Two pints of mint. Chocolate. Chip ice cream. Not about choice by the way, you know that's my favorite ice cream. It's also my favorite ice cream McVeigh made no final statement but he left a handwritten copy of the palm in victis with its including lines quotes. I and the master of my fate. I. And the captain of my soul, which also corroborates Jack said where it was control me sacrifices appeals he's. He's martyring himself. He thinks Donald we all know that he's pathetic inside but anyways. So after McVeigh was given the lethal injection, he was pronounced dead at seven fourteen am Ron? Brown. Art One of our first degrees who has lost his wife Cindy who was a secret service agent He opted not to attend the execution or watch it via closed circuit. TV. You know what I was doing that I rented a house right on the Columbia River. And had a couple of Jetskis I was out on the Columbia, River. Jumping wakes from barges going by which you're not supposed to do, but I was doing at out. and. I was thinking to myself. I'm here doing this. It's a sunny day out and that. Is Dead. I win. Mac and followed Nichols and McVeigh's court proceedings closely. Harry Naples actually. was convicted of a hundred and sixty eight counts of murder. and. You know the plotting and. Help building bomb and all of that the execution and. Timothy, B. They I seek got convicted of eleven. I mean he got. Convicted of a significantly less. Amount of death he was executed Terry Nichols. Was it I remember the conviction date more because I remember when the texts I sent out saying guilty motherfucker. That for me was more important than the execution, but the fact that this American one of our own. I really think that even me being. You Know Anti death-penalty. I did have this I of release I didn't WanNa have it. But it gave me guilty sense of satisfaction. It's like everybody could just exhale. We've all been holding our breath. And then it was like. Oh It's over. But then we came to realize it really wasn't over. You know. The reprecussions just. Never stopped. There still. Present And as we know just because convictions and sentences were handed down, doesn't mean the impact this tragedy had on those who lost their loved ones ended. One thing happened this is when Clinton was president. President Clinton was going to the dedication ceremony of. The Oklahoma City Memorial. So I get a call from one of the assistant directors on the detail say Ron, the president wants you to come with him. To Oklahoma City for the dedication and I just. I said Sir I haven't been back there since that day I just don't really want to do that. He's like he's like he's Kinda of taken back like well Ron really and then. Like I just it's not something to do and then. I. Got like three more calls from the supervisors and the last guy he was cool. I mean, he's like. What are people asking around? I said that tells me. He, said. He said, don't worry about that. You have to get on that thing I'm like, thanks. because. Here's the deal I would've I would've been there with the president of an arm around me or some bullshit like that, and then like all my friends around me and I, you know I just. Something I wanted to do there are probably a supervisor to that. We're probably not too happy with me through declining an invitation president. In retrospect I probably should have done it but At the time I? Know. There's no doubt. The Oklahoma City. Bombing tragedy all tragedies demonstrates both sides of humanity the light in the dark. Realized how good people could be asked realize what shift bags people could be? I probably got more cynical. Good side of it I. IT toughen the up and made me stronger bad side of it is. I took chances that it probably would not have taken. Before this happened and Some kind of dangerous with even. Stuff I did a secret service and stuff. I mean. Going out on things myself or I should have people with me You know. Confronting bad guys. Maybe a little. More Sternly than I would have. I, didn't tolerate. Bs very much. For Megan, the light she observed on the heels of this tragedy showed her something about the place where she grew up I have moved all over the country I consider my home Oklahoma. Number one thing was we will never forget. We will never forget and we call this the Oklahoma. Standard. The one thing. I. Can say about Oklahoma. In particular is that no matter what? During the Oklahoma City bombing during the May Third Nineteen Ninety nine Tornado it goes without saying they don't have to ask these media does have to ask. These blood banks are filled to capacity. People are setting up food centers. People are offering their homes for shelter. and. It doesn't matter what race what religion all that matters is that these people are Oklahoma and these people need help. And nobody turn. Anybody, away. Ever. while. This is where the mcvay story ends. It's not quite the end of her story for many reasons the ideology held by mcvay while he planned, the bombing did not die along with him. It's not that surprising. For me. That it was going on at this time it was a wakeup call. To the severity of these outright supremacist I think they've always been there. I just think that now that they've been giving such a voice. Because of social media. People are like realizing that these people exist but they've always been there. It's SORTA boiling point you know the next attack. On this country. is going to be one of our own. It's it's not gonNA. Be a foreign attack. I don't believe. I think it's already happening I, think people already plotting it. It's scary. It's really scary and we've seen it over and over with these school shootings with these guys, you know hitting up the nightclub and all of those are just conveniently forgotten because. There's these all right extremists calling themselves patriots. Ironically, even though their anti-government. and. It's like that gets kicked by the wayside and I think right now at this boiling point, it's more important than ever to remind people that your neighbor can be building a bomb. They WANNA BE AFRAID THEY WANNA be able to point a finger at a race at a religion. And say, these guys are the bad guys. They don't want to accept the fact that that guy sitting next to them. In Church quoting scripture. Could. Also be secretly. Planning. You know this massive event because that's what happened they don't want to. Acquiesce to the fact that Muslims are that people it's the extremists that are the bad people. Christians are that people it's the extremists that about people and it's hard to comprehend how two people could bring themselves to perform an act. That would ultimately take the lives of one, hundred, Sixty, eight people. Every year. Anytime I see a number I for one nine together. And every year that data approach is. I'm in the state of mourning and reverence and. Flashbacks we're surrounded by churches and every single trick there they ring the Bell hundred and sixty eight times. We have Oklahoma. City Marathon. We have the right to remember. And everybody shows up to those events. Everybody does it's a big day in Oklahoma nobody's there has forgotten except for, of course, the people that weren't enough for weren't born yet, but it is a day like nine eleven dot com. Now while I'm here right now I'm in Arizona nobody even gives a second thought and if I mentioned it They're like Oh yeah like it's not a big deal. And then on you know everybody remembers nine eleven because I guess they were more deaths or because it was foreign but it's hard because we forgotten because quote unquote larger tragedy happened that day. In May of Nineteen, ninety five, the offered p Murrah building was fully demolished and in two thousand, the Oklahoma City national morial museum was constructed and its place. It contains a reflecting pool with gates on. Ir. Side One march with nine one am the other nine three. The time of the blast to its south are bronze and steel chairs one for each victim killed in the blast, and there are nineteen smaller chairs for each child lost. Why chairs. Because they represent the empty chairs at the dinner table, the chairs that would never be filled again. All right well huge. Thank you to both Ron and make for being our first degrees for this episode. If you're out there and you have a story to tell, please please email us. Hello. The first greet PODCAST DOT com fall is on instagram at the first degree Alexis linkletter Bill Johnson at Vanik join our facebook group. We're talking true crime all the time we're always playing everybody in our facebook group for fun killing time segments, and then on that out stick around because we're GONNA kills. Remember only you can prevent serial killers. And keep your friends close. But. that. Always, feels like we're doing it the same. Feels nip felt good that felt really like into the Jacksonville happy. Bathtub Day. Shoutout to jared Monaco for sound design and original music. He makes exclusively for the first degree. Thanks to our production team Caitlyn Cleveland Taylor Rogers and Alan Santiago for podcast. One sources for today's episode includes CNN the FBI The Washington Post the La Times. ABC News and Zoe's friesinger guests always our largest source. How'd you banish high rates on Car Insurance? You switch to GEICO during gyco Wean, October's their favorite time of the year and the folks over at Geiko have been working even harder to Castro high rates and craft just the right policy for you and your family. So Ching the Geiko isn't so scary especially when they could brewers spellbinding savings just for you. So get a call today at GEICO DOT com and see how much you could save no I have not needed. Happy Guy. Choline everyone. Wants to throw fabulous said Mr Worldwide on the Paris I had the real name is not the podcast from negative to positive which you could catch on apple podcast podcast want spotify to rattle. Even know if you know how much they play on the or anywhere my brother, no matter how much prayer remained can't take with right how many houses 'cause whatever we acquired can't take it with us with I said, anything we make is always the backed up why are we starting a podcast? Well, it's real simple with the Times that we live in right now in the world I think you need to be motivated in spied educating aware. Positive. So what I'm here is to motivate the world and let them know we top cosby. You won't hear the truth four to the PODCAST. I look forward to showing job teaching how to take it from a negative to positive get rid negative to positive, which you could catch the podcast podcast one in spotify. All. Right. Well, welcome to another episode of killing time that killing. Back. Now. Why Oh no, it felt. So natural I, take it back. That's me the stealth bomber. Planted in your subconscious and it manifest on its own I know have you been like have you been giving me subliminal messaging over the past few weeks to get it to the? That's right. You just keep saying. That's right. Jacqueline you know I roll damn it. Well, you know I'm pissed number one but number two I thought that for this episode of killing time we'd get a little spooky. You know it's Halloween season. It's fall time we should get some. We should get some spooky vibes up in the air. Yes which vibes which pipes lexin I were for Halloween last year. I cannot believe that was a year ago. That feels like I just bought that stuff on Amazon yesterday I know. I know just blink an hour back to October. So for my first, I pulled our facebook group. Thank God, we have them I can't come up with anything on my own. The brains this opera yes and I our facebook group I really do love our facebook group. I think it's up to eighty five hundred people. You know what's crazy is I While I never look at numbers but. Recently, we looked at our downloads of our podcast. We're looking at her instagram we're looking at the facebook group. We've really grown the from the first EAS are out and about and I love it. We have the best face pirker they really are in. We also have the best mods I know. This arm odds handle shit and I know because sometimes people you know and you have a facebook group people think that you're in their twenty four, seven reading every single post we are we are not. We try to his comments on most things. No Billy does billy delays. Screen time is up from last. What are we at now? Check your phone I. Bet you. I bet you it is. I bet you it's up but I the things puff of my feed, which would be members I interact with eight hours and thirty four minutes is Billy's daily average right now that is so absolutely insane. But Google. Is Two. Hours of that though. messaging is two hours net acid Jing is actually an hour in fifteen minutes Netflix's on your phone. Sometimes I do safari is don't. Yes. Auto Pri- is this is not like it's not me looking at my my yeah yeah yeah yeah billy. Says the playing says, that's that's your average and those are your most us. No Billy you're on your phone too much. anyways. Enough of Billy's screen time we are. We talked enough about his screen time last time. So I e is I was compiling some some questions from our I, E S, and the first thing, and the major thing that everybody wants to know our opinion of is candy corn. No negative. We we all agree that candy corn is a no-go. What I like to do with candy corn is put them in my mouth in a weird way and make them look like teeth but I don't Wanna eat that I spit them out. Or make them look like little vampire teeth and then I spit him out or Iraq I will say this about Candy Corn They make these Candy Pumpkins that are like Candy Corn Pumpkins that have a little bit of chocolate in them. I can deal with those I'm all about those listen and I love it. Anything Halloween so I don't WanNA completely disparage the marriage, the corn. My at the end of the day, I would rather choose a lot of other things other than. Is What is the flavor I was just going to ask that what is the Candy Corn Flavor and also is there actually any food and candy corn because it just tastes like Styrofoam? Born no candy corn is supposed to shut us like which is blood that is. Why Real Billy. Look it up. I. Did just learned for the first time in my thirty three years existence. This is probably last year at the corner the candy corn when you put them all together. They make a corn on the COB in Cobb. Yeah. But maybe the flavors supposed to taste like corn, you know how? Corey Kluber taste nothing like great. Yeah. Just to yeah. Grape flavor. But like it's made up, that's not what grapes tastes like. Now it's a made up like flavor maybe that's what Korn. Artificial sweetened corn to the maker. They've been trying they've been trying to like yeah. Conceive this idea of what coroner actually tastes like I. Don't buy I. Don't know if there's anybody out there. That actually likes a candy corn. Nothing the trash alexis new phrases corn to the maker. Definition. Know. It's something that she says in her APPS now. I don't know how to respond to that I. Don't know where this lexin election you just said it just down Gordon to the maker I. Amends like the maker of Candy. Created as flavor it's like, where did the flavor of bubble gum come from? Where do the flavor of Dr Pepper come from they just make these things up doesn't. It doesn't occur in nature all these people. IDEA. The is it wasn't. Like Coca Cola originally had cocaine in it. So I feel like the Coca Cola taste was probably to mask the intense metallic flavor of cocaine probably metallic. Give coke is such coca. Cola is such a distinct flavor. You do wonder where they came up with it. Is it like a Dasha? Vanilla like I know Dr Pepper the old commercials say like flavors or something yeah exactly. Like even flavor like bubble gum what is? What is They make that from and how I feel twenty Korn is like that. Yeah and how did somebody they came up with it? They're like this is this is it and you know this happened like one hundred years ago. So like back in the early nineteen hundreds or like Yes. and. Then they landed on the candy. Corn Flavor which people hate. Eureka and then it's also the best selling. Halloween. Candy somehow still because that's probably because it's been around for probably the longest and it was like the only form of candy back. I'm really just like have no idea if this is true but I'm assuming it was one of the first candy and it was like the only candy and people you know back in the day when you haven't tasted glorious nece, you like think. Shitty things are tasty. It's like when I was Vegan and I thought cafe gratitude food was good and then I started leaving me and I'm like this tastes like cardboard Haffey gratitude is not good. Have you tried their pancakes awful I hop. But when you go to cafe gratitude you you talk about your recent dream I, like the way that you order their marketing like I'll have one hot cup of I'm grateful for my mom. For anybody listening that doesn't know what we're talking about. There's this restaurant called cafe gratitude. It's in Venice and a couple other spots in la it's very hippy dippy everything is labeled I am. Endless or I am great fuller. I am humbled the lead in the wind look for my final destination and then when they place, you rate your order with them or whatever they're like. Okay. Well, I'm GONNA leave now and I want everybody to talk about a recent dream that they have had. Like God. Damn it. No. You know I think it's a force for good. I mean I like the idea that I don't like it in practice and I don't like their food if the food tasted good, I'd love it like Veggie Grill veggie grill is Vegan and tastes amazing. Because veggie grill just makes all their shit out of like. It's just a bunch of junk food and it's. S You want it you just go to Taco Bell and say a prayer before the Taco Bell and then you're Mexican pizza, it'll be okay I did learn that apparently there is I learned this from Becca from my other podcast. There is a secret Taco Bell Vegan Taco on the menu and I don't know how to order it, but it is apparently the Lucio. Alicia. So that's labor not. Swipe or no swiping I don't why do you keep bringing up Dora the explorer because it's an awesome you don't even have young children my children endure these. Didn't. Yes. The explores like new isn't it? It's not. It was a round like fifteen years ago or so. Okay. anyways. Next question we're just GONNA stand this candy thing. This is good. What is everybody's favorite Halloween Candy and least favorite Halloween Candy I already know the answer to this for me go for it. So my favorite ever. Is. Kit Kat real because I like to bite the chocolate off the sides, cut off the top and then I peel the wafers apart and eat them without chocolate. It's the best tasting thing. Okay. Ever. least favourite I hate like sugary candies I don't like Pixie sticks or. Things like that. So I minus kind. Or mounts also. But mine is sort of similar to yours where my favorite is a twix and I used to love getting twix and then getting. Pretzel and then scraping the top of the twix with the Pretzel and then having a Little Pretzel surprise a Little Pretzel Caramel chocolate surprise, and then eating the twix wafer or whatever it was cookie. Separately. So I got two snacks in one. This is similar to what I did with the kit. Kat and the twix is my next favorite I. Love Twix Twix is delicious, and then yet my lease we're the same lexus we love chocolate, and then we hate a heinous wheat I hated candidate A. A senseless arbor I like a starburst is okay. But like a smarty or like like those little remember those little. Cola like you things that you would take the wax shoes. Billy what's your favorite and least favorite? My favorite would be a tie between pennies and apples always love the the one woman on the block that would give either pennies or apples. Are you talking about pennies the coin? Only. Kill Your? Age, my favorite candy would be. peanut butter cups. My least favorite would be probably. Mary Jane's what's Mary Jane or a bit honey or something better honey same i. don't even know what either of those are or were there is if you get a worders original. Others. Yeah. You're like an old lady at heartfelt. Just like a nice little butterscotch is very odd brand for you. Actually should be the lady in like twenty years just keeping your purse Jack, hand him to kids. I feel until the kids. Oh, have one now. I'm going to go to sleep at six out as I feel like as an adult I shouldn't be giving kids candy out of my purse I think you should, and also you know those those candies they've got like strawberry print. was. Old Their Gross. Why grow? Grow Strawberry. Talking about, I'd say. Apple. At the office where that we're doing the show there's pineapple strawberry, and then you bite into them and boom there's A. Shelly surprise. And love those and that is so not something that usually like. But there is something very comforting about those candy because they're always available at like doctors offices or just somewhere there was like a childhood kind of thing. That brings back the nostalgia. Very nostalgic. That's how I feel about workers. I just love the strawberries so good. We have any other. Can we're getting Jack for her FROZEN EMBRYO PARTY? A bag of strawberries squish jellies candidates. Know what I will do. I will say is that whenever I would go to a house and they would give away a pack of Gum. Or something like that. That was always. A win it was always so hard to chew in dry and then your jaw hurt. Trying to chew gum like bowling. Raft. Gum. Talking about like a bubble. Yum. Bad for your jaw. In the rapper and it was so it was so dry and you could barely even get it to like turn into actual gum. I think you're not having the right W. Maybe. You just have jaws like Piranha. I wanted to be the cool high LoC when I I had a house I bought the giant. Regular size candy bars and I was like the House that gave out the regular size candy bars about ten years. Do you were that house? We wouldn't was bubbly I'm looking at. It was like zebra fly they have like a watermelon. Is Clever thinking about the the big listen I liked getting the bubble yams, the bags of the big ones. I like those houses. Maybe I trick or treat at Your House concert billy when I was a child and you were an adult living. I. Feel like that is a good place to end because I was the best Zinger I've ever heard. Zing. Zing. Going to go into micro chamber now. Okay. You and Walt Disney uncle. So time of death fourteen, thirty beeping beep death.

Timothy McVeigh Terry Nichols Nichols Oklahoma the Times Oklahoma City Ron facebook Billy mcvay apple FBI Jack Panic Raanan Megan US ATF spotify Waco Bill Johnson Davidians
Ski Mask Rapist (Part 2 of 2)

The First Degree

33:10 min | 3 months ago

Ski Mask Rapist (Part 2 of 2)

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on apple. Podcasts i've cast one spotify and anywhere else. You get your podcasts now. I've become so accustomed to listening to podcast. And when i want to read a book. It's so hard to sit down there and just read so i love listening to books on audible instead so audible is the leading provider of spoken word. Entertainment all in one place and audible. You can find the largest selection of audiobooks ranging from bestsellers new releases to celebrity memoirs languages. Business motivation and more like original entertainment from top celebrity creators and thousands of popular end. Binge ready podcasts so as an audible member you'll get one credit every month. That's good for any title in their entire premium selection and that means latest bestseller. The buzzy is new released the hottest celebrity memoir or that bucket list title. You've been meaning to pick up those titles are yours to keep forever in your audible library and with every lee. Love to listen to all in one app audible. Is your playlist for life and new members can always try audible for thirty days on us. All you have to do is visit audible dot com slash degree or texts degree. To five hundred five hundred. That's audible dot com slash degree or text degree to five hundred five hundred degree degree degree. I the first degrees seems to happen in real life realize that fragility of your distance right. You'd think you live in a house and the doors roll off and everything you know that but could somebody be watching you to the first degree the true crime. Podcast you might end up on my name. Is jack panic. I'm sitting far away from alexis. Linkletter and billie johnson and this week is part two of the ski mask rapist. If you haven't listened to part one you're going to have no idea what the hell we're talking about so go back. Listen to part one and then you can bench part two right now but billy. What is it today before we jump in jack. It's april twenty first. this one is for you. it's bulldogs are beautiful day. Oh how do we is this. Is this a wednesday one or is this a actual date. I think he are actual dates. I think the bookmobile just really threw us off as as a thanksgiving type of holiday. Okay got it so we would have remembered this one from last year because jack would have had been wearing a shirt or something. Well i love. The bulldogs are beautiful. Day i love that. They have to say are beautiful. It can't just be national bulldog day because so many people wrongly. They're ugly dogs which i will never agree with that. It is a hill. That i will die on that. They're the cutest dog in the world. So i appreciate this day. It's also national banana day. Love a banana and keep off the grass day. Which i don't i don't understand some corrosion. Curmudgeon got in their sound. Add george costanza today. Yes it sure does fun fact. I'm allergic to bananas. So i'll leave it at that. You are slightly allergic. i get a really itchy mouth. My throat slightly closes up and this will not enough to do it. I don't wanna tempt fate with that one. Just stay away from the news. Yeah no it's fine all right. Well that's enough of that so let's turn on the lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be you Three years man police dubbed the ski mask rapist had terrorized the bay area of california ripping up of seven unsuspecting women in their homes and churches or school. Campuses women did what they could to protect themselves in sketches of a possible suspect circulated in the region with these things have little to stop the suspect who is hell bent on reaping and terrorizing as many women as possible. This suspect would always wear ski mask with rob his victims and he would always enter through an a- mocked window or door. The police believe the rapist sit in church or school. Parking lots to zero in on targets for stalking his victims to learn their routines right before he struck by november of nineteen eighty-seven twenty six year old. George sanchez was a suspect in the ski mask rapist. Case in san jose police department had put surveillance detail on the twenty six year. Old city sewer worker while sanchez would come and go at odd hours improve various neighborhoods. They hadn't caught him doing anything incriminating at this point when the nineteen eighty seven thanksgiving weekend approached due to staffing issues. The decision to pull the surveillance detail off of sanchez was made in the san jose. police learned. What a costly mistake. This would be when they received a call informing them that another rape occurred. This time chillingly. The victim was an eighty four year. Old woman who'd been attacked at the church in san jose attack itself happened inside a confessional. When the police spoke to the woman she told them how the horrifying events unfolded. The band had asked us telephone before raping her at first. The suspect wasn't wearing a disguise but then he locked her in the confessional and came back ten minutes later wearing a mask. He held her at gunpoint and said during the attack. I was in a trance. I couldn't think the attacker stole her wallet. Which is a red clutch type purse. And this very devout church-going eighty four year old had been raped in her place of worship. And this assault just happened to occur when the security detail had been pulled off of their now. Lead suspect george sanchez to put it lightly. This was a huge police blunder. But by this point the police were rather certain that george sanchez was there. Guy the eighty four year old victim had briefly seen his face and while. She said that she wasn't one hundred percent. Sure it was george sanchez. Her description was shockingly similar to his physical appearance. the news coverage about this understandably was not that favorable. The police defended themselves on the news. Sergeant dwight messmer said quote over the holiday weekend because we're thin on the holidays anyway. There just weren't enough people to do it. You don't put one guy on an eighteen hour shift to tell somebody and the hope here. Is that this negative publicity would act as a motivating factor to make an arrest in this case once and for all and the plan now was to meticulously. Follow george sanchez. Until he slipped up he was bound to eventually fair thinking so they followed sanchez relentlessly and continue to do so all the way up to december fourteenth december fourteenth which brings the story full circle because summer fourteenth that. The police trail george sanchez to an apartment. Complex in redwood city california and all. This should sound familiar to you because it's the apartment home of our first degrees bill and christine that the ski mask rapist had set his sights on this evening. An entire team undercover officers followed sanchez all the way to the outskirts of this complex but unfortunately in terrifyingly the lost him once. He was on the premise so they knew he was at this complex. They just had no idea which unit the police at this point. We're helpless in saving whichever woman sanchez. Was targeting the had no way of stopping this if a rape was going to occur so bill recalls how the suspect gain entry to their apartment. What you did was There was kind of an underground parking garage under the apartment. And he had gone in there and he'd unscrew the light bulb and the happened to be a chair sitting down there. So you grab that and fortunately. He made the mistake of stepping at a big puddle of oil from one of the cars and track that all the way up on that and there were footprints inside the house. We still aren't sure. Why george sanchez abandoned. His plan to attack christine. Perhaps he just sends that something was amiss evening because the police have determined he was probably in our apartment for quite a while. We were talking because she was on the phone she probably was. You know afraid to make a move. He might have gotten spoo- according to the police. They followed them there and then they lost him. The couldn't find them right so they were walking around kind of lurking in the bushes to looking in the windows to see if they could find the guy. I guess you freaked jump back out the window and took the screen with them if you were calling him. Episode one christine fled the home at the instruction of the french. she called. who met her in the street. It's at that point that they made contact with the police who were hidden around the perimeter and she told them what happened. The police had narrowly missed him again. Bill was out of town for business trip. When all of this went down. So i got back to the hotel on the night clerk at the death. Said you have an emergency phone call. You have a panic. Your heart races all types of scenarios. Go through your mind right if you've got an accident or if you know something happened to place burned down. I mean ski mask rapist. Wasn't even i mean. That never even occurred to me so that that was not anything that went through my mind. I just wanted to kill the guy. I mean i i was so angry. I was still relieved. Yeah and so. That's something like that. What happened right. And then when you hear i mean you know. Through the grapevine. We had heard that the cost they had been tracking. This guy they knew was they. Were trying to catch him in the and the act and that made me angry to jesus. Christ you're using. My girlfriend is date right or some other innocent woman that was that was a little you know and it was in the eighties right. Things are a little different than you know. However while george sanchez hadn't technically been caught in the act. This close call was enough for the da's office to grant the san. Jose police department a warrant to search his home and his vehicle and they found a treasure trove of evidence they found ski mask black pantyhose that had been turned into a mask is. Let's they found black gloves and a black pellet gun resembling a forty five caliber automatic weapon. The police also found jewelry and other items belonging to several ski-mask victims and grossly as it turns out that george sanchez was giving jewelry owned by his victims to his wife. Clara as gifts officers also found the red wallet owned by the eighty four year. old victim. An inside were pictures of her grandchildren. And now they had more than enough evidence to arrest george sanchez as the ski mask rapist. He was taken into custody when he was on his way to work. On december sixteenth. Nineteen eighty-seven and this was two days after he was inside the apartment of bill and christine bill recalls hearing about the arrest when they arrested him was probably in the paper and then it was like holy crap. This guy. this guy's he's evil right. I mean i Just you can't believe all the damage he's done days. after george. sanchez was arrested. The police returned to bill and christine's apartment. The police came by the next thing and then their communication was nail right. There was no anything from them. Everything we gathered. The information we got was essentially from newspaper in the cops never came by and asked a thing. Says a little odd right. I mean when you look back at. You're like that would have been nice to have more information. I have buried it. There wasn't really anybody like asking me these questions at the time so it made me think. Well that's really casual thing. I guess. I i miss a bullet and no-one's really concerned so i i didn't really put much emphasis on it and while it's weird that the cops didn't follow up with them. Maybe it was for the best because the whole thing. Donald christine bitter really hit me until like days later weeks later years later like like. How did this possibly happen. How did i end up being the victim and yet like missing the whole thing and it was just wild. And as far as seeking information about the details of george sanchez's crimes. It's something christine was really not that interested in. I don't believe i've even read any of the accounts. But i i do remember just the one about the elderly woman in cabot confessional. If i read all of the nixon. I mean i'd be really freaked out right. I think the. I mean the reason why i feel a bit of care. 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So what i've been using is they're amazing. On dodge raya algae body oil it instantly moisturizes and replenishes dry skin living every inch silky. Smooth and it smells frigging delicious so you can try it. Risk free for thirty days and get free shipping on orders over fifty dollars the even send free samples with every order. Get ten percent off your first order with our promo code. First degree at malibu dot com. That's ten percent off with code of first degree at s. e. a. m. a. l. dot com. Do you own or rent your home. Sure you do. It can be hard work but you know it's easy. Bundling policies with geico geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home go to geico dot com. Get a quote and see how much you could save. Geico easy visit. Geico dot com today. That's geico dot com news of the arrests of twenty six year old. George sanchez was a shock to many new him including his wife who was surprised but also cooperative and you can imagine that on top of learning her husband and the father of her children was a serial rapist. She's also super past. When she found out the police charge her with thirteen counts of possession of stolen property for having the many pieces of the victims jewelry in her possession. One of sanchez's neighbors was a twelve year. Old girl who often played with the sanchez children in actually a third grade teacher at her school had been one of the victims. So nothing that happened on the heels of george sanchez's arrest was at the san jose. Police were facing some tough questions because by this point the public learned about several aspects of this investigation. First of all it took detective six months to start watching sanchez after. They've received a tip from the foster city. Woman who recognize sanchez as the man who burglarized her home leaving a ski mask pellet gun and gloves behind now. That evidence had sat in a foster city. Police storage room for two years. And the connection was never made to the much publicized rape case which was taking place only twenty five miles away during this time period. Sixteen rapes had occurred. The police defended themselves and said that they didn't associate attempted burglaries with rape cases because the two crimes were so different. They said many burglars where ski masks or hoods and most burglars not rapists. George anthony sanchez was booked on charges of burglary as well as one hundred and twenty four counts of rape sexual assault robbery and burglary twenty seven women in the san jose area over a three year period. He pled not guilty to the charges. Now all there was to do was wait for the trial date to approach. And in the meantime another strange piece of information was made public. A cousin of george sanchez was placed under arrest for being an accomplice to one of the rapes. That occurred in may twenty year. Old antonio rodriguez was charged with five felony counts including forcible rape orel copulation forcible sodomy plus robbery and burglary and in terms of evidence. It's unclear how is implicated in this rape and as far as his prosecution instead of fighting the charges and going to trial. Rodriguez pled guilty and received twenty eight years in prison. I'm always so fascinated by family secrets like this like they did this together. And it's like we know that george is married with kids you know like yeah and it's like what are a all sit around thanksgiving dinner and just pretend this didn't happen like i'm so fascinated by by family members who do this kind of shit together or just two people who do this kinda shit together like it's one thing to have one person that is a terrible fucking evil piece of shit but then to find another person that's a terrible fucking evil piece of shit too and then get them together to do this like that blows my mind that you find somebody that's like levels in your evil when you find like the toolbox killer is or the the yeah the hillside strangler. It's just like how do they each other but they do kind of awkward conversation occurs for them to figure out there both into this to two dudes. Hey you ever wish that that someone said no. And you said like yeah. I'm into that bro. Me to like. How do these people even have this conversation out. They're going to do this in the hebrew. I've done it like twenty five times. Why don't you come next time in the. I'm i'm just like what. How did this happen. It's like inviting somebody to happy hour. Yeah it's just bizarre. Wouldn't you be worried. Someone tell on you like i know. It's a risk to bring it up. So wonder how long they had been like beating around the bush before someone just set it like. They wanted to do it anyways when the trial began. George anthony sanchez was facing six hundred and twenty five years in prison. If convicted of all the charges he was facing in many of the victims would be called to testify and to her surprise. So is christine christine. Got up a thing in the mail that they asked her to come testify and was out of town so her dad went with her. I was sitting court. And i was sitting in the box and i remember. I didn't look up. 'cause i'm like i am not looking at this guy right and i just remember a shackled prisoner being escorted into the courtroom and then i basically just recounted everything. It was very bizarre. I was afraid to see his fakes like i. I just looked at whoever the prosecutor was. And i can't my story than i was excused. Another key witness was slated to testify was an inmate who had been housed with sanchez. After his arrest. This inmate was named raymond george allen according to him sanchez had confessed to being the ski mask rapist and even express concern that his last the eighty four year old woman had cena's face and may be able to identify him twenty-seven victims in total testified in court and face their attacker. The testimony was compelling and overwhelming. George sanchez was convicted of one hundred. Seventeen counts of sexual assaults. He was sentenced to four hundred and six years in prison and began serving his sentence correctional training facility in solid starting on june six nine hundred eighty nine. I never was afraid of anything. There was never any fear of anything happened right. I mean that's kind of how i was until that point perceives very good at compartmentalizing. You know and she can. She can take that and kind of put that in a a a box even now. She puts furniture when i have to travel on gotomeeting. Show put all the furniture up against the doors. We lock the gates. Every night we We have cameras outside. So i've i've gone to the extreme right. I have a ring doorbell that lets me know every time. Somebody's they're very security conscious. According to a nineteen eighty-nine upi article about sanchez's conviction. He was set to receive a life without parole sentence. But that didn't end up happening. So jorge sanchez was locked up. The proverbial key have been thrown away. But here's the thing. This won't be the last time that you'd hear his name. Because it was resurrected in two thousand and nineteen. And here's why despite being sentenced to more than four hundred years in prison but thousand nineteen he qualified for parole under something called the elderly parole program specifically he qualified as a youth offender since he committed all his rapes before the age of twenty six. The program is typically available to inmates. Were sixty or older but the youth circumstance grant sanchez. The possibility of speedier parole sees currently fifty eight and apparently requested the parole hearing. Luckily today we know exactly where this dangerous predator is. He's behind bars. And there's no question about that. The questions do remain. One is why back in nineteen seven did sanchez. Abort the attack on christine. While is there ever a reason when it comes to things like this. Sometimes there is no reason. The randomness the sickeningly uncontrollable luck of the draw. Is sometimes the only thing that spears you. A life shattering or life ending experience for me. For months. I would constantly go through in my mind. Well why what happened. Something happened that for some reason you decided to leave without attacking my girlfriend. I couldn't figure out because she was in her underwear sitting. I think at her desk in our bedroom talking. I mean as soon as we hung up perfect environment attacker i. We'll probably never know what happened. And thank god. I did right. But i would constantly think about that. Why why bell remains grateful that his wife was spared being victim of such a terrifying incident. He's also grateful and gushes about christine. Still which is adorable. I wake up every morning. And i think i'm the luckiest man alive. How did i need such beautiful wonderful person. We're so lucky. The close call still has a lasting impact. Not just on christine. But i'm bill to be immediately started looking for a place to move. I felt too vulnerable there. We bought a place in redwood shores and we bought a place upstairs. I kind of felt all right. If you're up scares or you're probably safer. I always felt like christine's kind of the mountain lion stocking is cray and you're you constantly have to look over your shoulder. I constantly looking over my shoulder star. Probably felt i had to be more protective after that to to ensure that you know nothing. Whatever happened to her. And you can't be the helicopter spouse or boyfriend life goes on and i think what christine. Let's put it in the box. I'm not going to think about it and we're gonna move on so you know really in probably affected me emotionally more than her. At least that. That's how i view it and even to this day i don't even like to go out. You know like as they say nothing. Good happens after ten o'clock right. I don't like to be out out late. We have Two daughters and a son. And i'm always always reminding Don't go out at night and party because you're vulnerable. you know. women are vulnerable in our society. Three it's really too bad and here's christine again. I really think. I didn't process it until many many years later. And because i definitely feel more scared now than i have in years past because i realize the fragility of your distance right you think you live in a house and the doors are locked and everything you know set but could somebody be watching years later. Billing christine have worked to instill caution and their two daughters result of their experience. I don't think they really can fathom it. I kind of feel like it was a near miss and they're thinking i'm invincible but i'm constantly like you know. Watch where you're walking turnaround. Look when you go to enter your place look around and see if somebody is monitoring you. It's not the fairy tale anymore. You live a fine line if somebody decides target you some where some time. Someone's pick you and maybe if you're alert you might be able to avoid it with everything. Life is not going to happen to meet somebody else. I guess that's a great thing about life or you just think. Oh my life is going to be grant. Nothing bad will happen. You know but it's right on the other side right if you're not careful all right well. Huge huge thank you to bill in christine for being a first degree is for the past two weeks. If you're listening and you have a story to tell please email us. Hello at the first degree. Podcast dot com. You can follow us an instagram. At the first degree out alexis linkletter at abdullah jensen at jack. Vanik join our facebook group. We were talking true crime all the time and like last week. We are going killing time this week because we are working on preparing our second episode a week. Killing time spectacular. And we're so excited we've that's right. Get brady's it's going to be. On thursdays i hate those days and remember only you can prevent serial killers. Keep your friends close but Close happy bulldogs are beautiful day. Jacqueline were so beautiful. By by a shoutout to jarred monica for producing original music for the first degree are producing team. Caitlyn cleveland taylor. Rogers and allen santiago for podcast one sources for today's episode include the associated. Press the la times. Mercury news upi san francisco chronicle and as always or guests in this case. Bill and christine are always our largest source. I i don't know about all of you listening. But i for one have found that one of my biggest challenges. This last year has been finding a fitness routine. That i can actually do at home. I actually enjoy it and that will actually stick to. I've tried literally everything but nothing really did it for me. 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Dianne Hood

The First Degree

59:12 min | 10 months ago

Dianne Hood

"Thank you for listening to this podcast one production. Now, available on Apple podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast. How do you banish higher rates on Car Insurance? You switch to Geico during geico Wayne October's their favorite time of the year and the folks over at Geiko have been working even harder to cast out and craft just the right policy for you and your family switching to Gyco isn't so scary especially when they grew up spellbinding savings just for you. So get a call today at GEICO DOT com and see how much you could save. No I needed. Happy Guy Choline everyone. degree. Degree to reporters. I. The first degree. Supposed to have in movies not real life. I think sometimes especially in true and you know as as someone who consumes a lot of true crime you WanNa hate the people that that you hear about you WanNa hate the people that do these terrible things and you WanNa. Be Able to. To, put them in columns of good and evil, and unfortunately the world doesn't work like that. Welcome to the first degree. The true crime podcast you might end up on my name is Jack Vanik I'm sitting closer than ever to. Alexis linkletter amd Billie Johnson. Welcome home guys. Thank you do you feel good to be home? I didn't want to go home. I really didn't I had the best. Six weeks of my life. Like there are a couple obstacles, but it was like my, it was my dream. Truly, like I got to do something that I've been trying to do for five years I really didn't want it to end. I'm in full depression mode actually oh I'm sorry we need to. We need to get together and just have a few dozen drinks. You're the only one I missed you so much Jack and I must jared too. So I was so happy I'm so happy to get home to you guys but other just for my day to day I just loved being there I missed my friends. That's pretty much it. I didn't Miss Los Angeles that's for sure absolutely not billy how do you feel? About the same, you know the work was so great and it was so important and we got so many things we can't talk about it yet and I know this is a bit of a tease, but we really did get so many things that seemed impossible at the time and. Just, working together, we had amazing crew there and you develop these great relationships with people. It's a very much of a foxhole mentality when you're with this crew and you're all trying to do the same thing and. Eating a lot of near Pizza New York bagels and. It was a really it was just a really, really great solid time. So I'm in that sort of post show depression as well because I don't think we'll ever have an experience. Let's for going and shooting A. Damn Marvel movie or something where we're GONNA be. Out For. Six weeks you know we did that because right? Yeah like lived together like a team. It's like the doesn't happen. They don't make adults do that like summer camp don't. So it really was this like taste of. Being. Boarding school or something again where it's like you're also with people who are supposed to be keeping you on track. So you're also like sneaking around like, should I have this ice cream bar should I along someone else? Anyway like it's a whole emotional process. Oh well, that's a very youth fall fund experience. I'm glad you had I can't wait to see what comes of all of your hard work, but I will wait with everybody. All right. Well, billy, what day is it today? It's back to the future day. Oh. Yes, and it's observed annually on October twenty first because that is what they entered into the computer, it was like twenty, two, thousand, fifteen Then they went back to the future that was the future date. So it is back to the future day. There are so lucky they didn't do back to the future into twenty twenty. Ten We're done. Let's go back. Yeah, let's go back to that weird that. Weird, you know a plot of a guy that goes back to the future and as John Mullany recounts and tries to sleep with his mom basically. It's true. Don't you have any other good days or is that is that a and done? There are so many days and there's so many strange days it goes from Hag Fish Day? Yes. And you like fish with no bones to national Pumpkin cheesecake day. Reptile Awareness Day you know there's just a lot of them. I would say the one that you might appreciate the most is international day of the NACHO. ooh, I'm sad that it's so late in the day now that we're recording because I would have loved to celebrate this day with a big Nacho. I love the fact that it's not Nacho Day it's international day of the NACHO. That's right. It makes it seem fancy heard dramatic. Yes. Very dramatic I. Love some noxious. I know we need to eat some NACHOS. Another day. All right. Well, that's enough of that. So let's turn on the lights. And turn up. Eighty Because this could be you. I'm I WANNA start today's episode by telling you that I was never baptized. In fact, I've been a church fewer times than I can count on one hand for funerals and for weddings. But exploring today's case we will also deconstruct aspects of some fundamental themes religious teachings. In Christianity the Lord's per tells us forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. But do those trespasses include murder. While most scholars say guess. As John Three Sixteen says. For God. So loved the world as he gave His only begotten Son. The. Death of Jesus laid the groundwork for forgiveness. Peter told those who crucified Christ In each of you be baptized in the name Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sentence. It could be argued that redemption and forgiveness are two of the central themes in the lessons of the Bible. But it could certainly be argued that in the wake of murder redemption and forgiveness are perhaps the two most difficult lessons to put into practice. So. Today's case takes us back to September Twelfth Nineteen Ninety Jon Bon Jovi's blaze of glory Janet. Jackson's come back to me and Mariah, Carey's vision of love were topping the charts and movies in the theaters were goodfellas and death warned. And the setting for today's cases, Colorado Springs Colorado. Which Bosa view of the rocky mountains to the west of the city. As places also one of the most active lightening strike areas in the United States. In fact, Nikola Tesla selected the city to build his lab and study electricity. It's the home of Norad. Wargames took place and it's also the home now of Paul's. Today's case begins with the intersection of two lives that of Diane more in Brian Hood. This couple met in high school and story unfolded as the quintessential high school sweetheart relationship that turned into marriage. In High School Ryan played football in cheering him on from the sidelines was Diane pompoms in hand and Bouncy as ever as a cheerleader and after high school this week arts married. Brian, worked as a relatively successful insurance agent they had one child and then two children. Then the hood family attended services together regularly at the Fellowship Bible Church Congregation In one, thousand, nine, hundred, Eighty, eight, the couple learned that they pregnant with their third child Diane delivered a healthy baby boy. But in the year following, she felt her energy start to fade and after seeing a doctor, she learned that she had disease called Lupus. So according to the Mayo Clinic lupus is stemming autoimmune disease that occurs when your body's immune system attacks, jerome tissues, and organs. Inflammation. Caused by Lupus can affect many different bodily symptoms including your joints, skin kidneys, blood cells, brain heart and lungs. But Luckily, in Diane's case, her prognosis was very good. Her case was a mild one very manageable with treatment she would go on to live many years to come. Right and now the Diane had an official diagnosis. She craves support from women who are going through the same thing that she was. So she joined a Lupus support group and that consisted of weekly meetings held at the Otis Recreational Park in Colorado Springs and she had one such meeting on September twelfth of Nineteen Ninety. After, the meeting concluded Diane walked out of the building with her friend Karen who is also in the support group with her and as a women walks toward their cars they were accosted by masked assailant who robbed the Women Diane was cooperative. She handed everything over and after doing. So she started to flee an even though she'd given up everything that she had honor the man of the mask shot her from behind heading her on the shoulder Diane fell to the. The. Assailants stood over her as she begged for her life and he then pointed his gun and shot Diane straighten the chest Diane's friend Karen was able to escape and she ran back inside and scream for help. Another member of the support group. Name. Sarah was a registered nurse and she dashed outside in an attempt to render aid to Diane. Who by now was gasping for breath and clinging to life Sarah began chest compressions and soon emt's arrived took over. They rushed her to the hospital hoping to save her life. But unfortunately, thirty, two year old Diane had been pronounced dead on arrival. Not long after the shots were fired a detective, you may be familiar with arrived on the scene in his name was Lieutenant Joe Kenda Josiah. We'd go onto his accessible career recounting stories of being a homicide detective on TV show but back in nineteen ninety, he was really living it and he was working as lieutenant homicide investigator for the Colorado Springs Police. Department. When he arrived, he was briefed on the broad strokes of this case, a mother and a housewife named. Diane. Hood had been gunned down after leaving her lupus support group meeting. Lieutenant. Kinda. Immediately started absorbing the scene. There are witnesses who are shocked in crying standing on the perimeter. The victim Diane had already been rushed to the hospital leaving behind a pool of blood on the pavement and at first glance and based on what those who witnessed this crime conveyed to Lieutenant Kinda sounded like a robbery gone wrong. And police interviewed Diane's friend Karen First Karen said that as the women were walking to their cars, they heard footsteps behind them. When they looked back. They saw person dressed in black and wearing a black ski mask. When the assailant demanded the women's purses neither resisted Diane handed her purse over and then started to run away and she was shot twice. And when Karen was press described the shooter all she could recall on the heels of chaos was at the shooter appeared shorter than she was. Right and Karen was just your average height no taller than five seven. So we're looking for a suspect that's shorter. Detectives canvassed the area to if any other evidence could be gleaned from the scene. And they brought in canine sniffer dog to see if it can catch the killers trail. And pick it up and within the immediate proximity of the scene the dog got nothing. But that changed about a mile away. When the dog lead the handlers to the foot of a trash can. And the dog sat down, which is the signal there's something belong to the shooter inside or near the trash can. So the detectives opened up the Trash Cam and there was a jacket, a pair of gloves, a pair of camouflage pants and a black ski mask. A mask just like the one Karen had described the shooter was wearing. In these were the clothing items that witnesses and Karen had described to the police they had to have been thrown away by Diane's killer. The items located inside this trash cans were sent to the police lab for processing the Canine dog eventually lost the scent of the shooter because this person was likely got into a car and drove away which meant that they're only promising lead had just hit a dead end at this point police knew little about victim you know just what they had heard from those. Who Knew Her at the scene? Her name was Diane Hood She was thirty two years old. She had three children and was married to a man named Brian but what else detectors wanted to know everything about Diane but like always they wanted to start with her husband and we know that when police officers are looking to track down the family of murder victims, they're bracing themselves for two things I the emotionally daunting task of informing a husband and children that they'll never see their wife and mother again. and. The second thing that they're mentally prepared for is to try to get a read on their reactions and many police. Officers will tell you that they can learn a lot from how loved ones react to this kind of news even in cases like these that appear to be a random act of violence, they're still a lot to be learned in these interactions. At this point detectives. At the Colorado, Springs Police Department they decided to divide and conquer. They'll locate Diane's family and also canvassed the neighborhood simultaneously. Those who searched the proximity to the scene knock on every door close by to see if anyone witnessed anything of note. That I it was nothing but then one in Canada woman who after hearing what happened. said that the police should look at a man who lived close by. His name was David Burns apparently this Guy Dave had a nickname and it was a glaring one. His nickname was homicidal Dave. Dave apparently wore camouflage. Similar, to that of the shooter. turned out that Dave was also a veteran of the Gulf War He had it sort of agitated personality and he tried to instigate fights with people. And he also knew how to handle a weapon to his military training. People in the community believed this guy was dangerous. Okay. So this is definitely an interesting lead. The police are going to want to check out. Meanwhile detectives had located Diane's husband thirty, two year old Brian Hood. He was distraught at the news at the unfairness that his wife due to the cosmic shuffling of the deck had crossed paths with someone who intended to not only rob her but to kill Diane. So. As we know during a homicide investigation, the police will get every aspect of victims life and let me tell you Diane's life. Didn't raise any red flags and I mean any she's a super omega three kids. She kept a perfect home and she was very devout faith and she left her husband and as far as the police could tell Brian's life had the scene pristine. Brian was extremely well liked by his neighbors co workers. But. How much people like Brian didn't matter to Canada order the rest of the because Brian's physical stature eliminated him as the shooter because he was relatively tall and remember Karen who witnessed the shooting was sure this shooter was on the shorter side and in the meantime had cleared their initial person of interest homicidal Dave, because as it turns out, he had an airtight alibi and he was too tall to be the assailant. But KINDA, and the rest of those investigating had new evidence to keep them occupied. Diane's autopsy had been completed in two forty, five caliber bullet casings were recovered from Diane Hoods Body. There are then sent to ballistics. And the result of the ballistics testing proved to be very interesting. It turned out that these shell casings had come from a very rare and valuable gyn, a coal pacemaker patent 1872, seventy, two, single action army revolver, which was an antique cowboy gun, and this is a huge limiting factor because there's rare gun was worth thousands of dollars and it's also a gun that given its antique nature wouldn't necessarily be registered. It's more. So the type of gun that would be passed down through generations. Okay. Okay. This is weird. Let's look at what they've got at this point. And you know Joe Kenda would probably be asking himself whether a career robber someone who would commit an armed robbery and who would kill a woman in cold blood over her purse with this type of person using antique cowboy gone to commit a random homicide probably not. And it's with this kind of thinking that canned up and the rest of the investigators they start shifting their focus. Maybe, this wasn't a robbery after all. Maybe this was a hit. So following the ballistic results, additional testing had been completed on the items disposed of in the trash can a mile from where Diane had been murdered. The crime lab had identified a brown hair in the ski mask that had been warned by the shooter. The also found traces of gunshot residue on the gloves that had been tossed. Remember this happened in one thousand, nine, hundred, ninety. So what they gleaned from the evidence is that they're shooter is likely a Brunette. As. Well, as confirmation that these were in fact, the gloves worn by the shooter. In not much because it's one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety in time is of the essence and even to do DNA would take how long back in nineteen ninety, two process a DNA sample or something like that. Months Probably. So, for the investigators at this point, it is time to regroup. They were rethinking this entire random robbery and shooting theory, and he decided to revisit the notion of Diane's husband Bryan Hood as a possible suspect or someone who knew more than he was letting on with there was a problem with Bryan in that was the fact that Brian had an alibi for the night Dan was killed. He was also short too tall to be this shooter according to witnesses however with no other leads to follow they decide to look into him anyway. So, candidate in the investigators recalled the interview with Brian and a thought back to something he said during his initial questioning on the night that Diane was killed when he was just answering general questions about his life and the life he shared his wife, he mentioned in passing that in recent months Brian had become obsessed obsessed with working out. He was on a huge workout kick obsessed with bulking up in getting shredded. So you went to the gym daily for hours at a time. So acting on a hunch the. Police Wander. Okay. If he's spending so much time at the gym, maybe we should go check this out. They go to the gym where he works out they did some poking around they spoke with some employees and it turned out that Brian at the gym would spend time with a woman named Jennifer for all these hours. So the gym employees didn't know much about this Jennifer other than that she worked at a flower shop that was down the street, which is why she ended up working out at this gym. So the detectives went there and learn that this. Jennifer person was a twenty eight year old Ning Jenny. Really. All right. So this is really interesting. This is a possible affair or maybe it's just just personal trainer who knows td but definitely interesting development right and the first thing they want to know is who is Jennifer and what is her connection to Brian and it turned out that Jennifer was gorgeous college graduate and a born again Christian and you guys sit she's married and not just any old Joe Schmo she was the wife of an army captain and they had two daughters together. And the detectives had a hunch Jennifer. Bryan were probably having an affair, but they would need to confirm that. But even if they were having an affair, a background check they conducted on Jennifer revealed that the young mom had never been in trouble with the law before even once. So they had doubts the Jennifer, could have been the one to stand over a dying diane who was begging for her life before she fatally shooting her. So as the detectors left the flower shop or Jennifer had worked, they decided to shift their focus to Jennifer's husband intelligence investigator in army captain named Benjamin really and here's why. The shopowner mentioned something a little throwaway comment again that he had no idea the significance of, but he said that he really liked, Jennifer's husband Ben and why was that well as because he and Ben had something in common. They both collected antique guns. So this development is a really big one. And it prompts a number of questions for the investigators to answer. The antique gun used in the murder. Diane was this one of Ben's guns About motive would ben have killed Diane Hood. Out. Of Revenge for Brian slipping with Jennifer. Or was it possible that Jennifer was really the one who killed Diane? Or did they do it together? 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So in theory, Ben Really could be the person who murdered Diane Hood So. Of course, the detectives are thinking we're GonNa WanNa talk to Ben Right away. So the investigators paid than a visit at work on the base in basically surprised him. And Ben, immediately went on the defensive remember Ben is successful military man, an army captain and intelligence investigator. It looks none too good for someone in his position to be questioned looked at seriously as a murder suspect. So when asked Ben Cough to owning several antique guns and when he was asked specifically whether he owned a Colt forty, five pacemaker, the kind of gun that killed Diane Hood? He admitted that yes, he did they also asked. If you knew a gun was if it was home and he believed he was still in possession of this gun. So, when they ask benefit has gone for testing, he was confused, but he was not particularly defensive or defiant about handing this gun over. So he did so. I The gun was tested for Prince and there were none. So police parted ways with Ben, tests on the conducted. It wasn't long before the police called Ben Back to the Colorado Springs Police Department for more questioning in once they were sitting across from Ben. They told him that his gun was a dead match for the shell casings taken from Diane's. But Ben Denied Killing Diane. Ben was asked to look at pictures of the clothing that investigators found in the trash can near the scene he said he didn't recognize the clothing. The detectives kept pushing the broke him down in the reminded him of the military career. He may be throwing away if he was proved to be lying to them Ben finally caved confessed that yes. Those clothing items those were his but the next things that Ben said were of particular interest to the detectives, Ben? said that, yes, the clothes were his but the last time he had seen the things was more than three weeks ago because. He had actually been living on the base. Ben Continued and said that weeks ago his wife Jenny asked him if she could hold the anti gun in question then she told her husband that she wanted to shoot the gun. So he took her to a shooting range to practice, and during this whole thing Ben seemed really sincere and he was shocked and mortified and frankly really sad and he seemed innocent and beyond that he seemed extremely believable. And it was starting to become clear that Ben was unlikely in on this whole murder conspiracy and on top of that, he was also showing visible signs of being extremely heartbroken about the fact that his wife Jenny was not only cheating on him, but maybe a murderer to. Jenny didn't fit the traditional mold for cold blooded killer, but regardless, the police needed to sit down with her and sort everything out. Once they track down she was interrogated for hours, but she staunchly denied any involvement in Diane's murder. And while they still didn't have a confession based on the evidence police felt that they had enough to arrest Jenny for Diane's murder. Once Jenny was in custody, they attempted a second interrogation. And Jenny continue to deny any involvement. She claimed at the gun must have been stolen. Retrial was ludicrous because it was put back where Ben usually kept it. And, eventually, after attempting tempting every excuse imaginable. Jenny finally buckled under the pressure. She confessed to everything. She confessed to the affair. which started after Jenny met Brian in the Jacuzzi of the gym where they both worked out. She can fast, the relationship became sexual two months later. When they had sex Jenny's home when her husband was staying on the military base. She confessed that they met frequently for romps in their cars and their jeep Cherokee and as their relationship became more and. That hood started expressing displeasure 's with his marriage. Things escalated from there. They began planning the slaying. It look like a robbery gone wrong. Ultimately Killing Diane. That she had killed Diane at the wishes of Diane's husband. Bryan. Ultimately happen is that media coverage of the story would explode Diane's link combined with Lurid details of genuine Brian's affair would earn Janney the title of Colorado Springs fatal attraction killer. A name would stemmed from a character played by Glenn close from the nineteen eighty seven thriller titled Fatal Attraction And in that movie Glenn Closest Character followed the Jealous Lover turned killer narrative. But back to Jenny. As it is with most murderous who are caught. Jenny would end up in prison with a lengthy. To serve. And ironically normally were our story would end. It's actually where our first degree story begins and here's our first degree Ali I've been going to the same church since I was a little kid and when we got a new pastor. Seven or eight years ago. One of her previous appearances was being the chaplain at the Women's Correctional Center. and. So that's how she met, Jenny. And she worked a lot with Jenny while she was in prison. Following Johnny's arrest. And surface of trial Jennifer really was found guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. She was sentenced to life in prison, but it was commuted in two thousand eleven making Jennifer really eligible for parole. In fact, here's audio from her two thousand fourteen parole hearing, which was ultimately denied by the way. In Nineteen Ninety I. Got Involved with. Somebody was not my husband. It was a fairly. Well unhealthy relationship of course, it's an affair so would be. This throughout the summer, my codefendant was. Complaining about his wife and he how he wanted her. To to die and I thought he was just venting eventually he believed that I was. The person that was supposed to. Kill his wife and. I ended up. Believing that. If it was supposed to happen. It would happen in that I ended up being person to do so so the plan was to. Confront her outside of Support Group Meeting. And I did and And she ran a shelter and I shot her time. Left. Jennifer really was presented opportunities for parole in Twenty fifteen in two, thousand sixteen. But because she was still considered a risk by the court, she was only granted supervised parole. She. Would come to our church and actually work with my mom who plays the guitar. And she recorded a CD of songs and they were songs that were about God but we're also about. Redemption. Redemption very polarizing topic when reflecting on the magnitude of taking a life. Like the one stolen from Diane Hood, which begs the question is there such a thing in? Can there ever be a clear answer? She. A lot of songs about Diane, who is the victim and about her remorse for what she did. So that was kind of how I I came into Noelene Jenny but she got very involved with our church and she. Would come to our church services while she was on the ISP she would you know participate with the choir or special songs during certain services and that was really how I got to know her. My first impression was that she was really really sweet nice woman I was actually helping out well, our church secretary was. So I was working in office and my mom and her working down the hall and I heard her singing and she had a really lovely singing voice and. I didn't share the content of the fung's at the time, but she just was really nice an alleys description of johnny being very sweet and incredibly nice wasn't uncommon. If you look at the old articles, there's dozens of quotes from neighbors, friends, and family members who are dumbfounded Jen's involvement in such a horrific crime. So. We asked Ali if she knew about jeans crimes prior to meeting her. I had no knowledge whatsoever. It was really someone offhandedly mentioned, and then I got really curious and you know I really love true crime and so I was like oh I gotta. Do My digging and find out everything from the articles that I read she. She was sentenced to life in prison. Without possibility of parole at the time. And I think it just really blew my mind because as a teenager and young adult I, watched a lot of like snapped and and other true crime shows and You know they always talk about Oh it's the perfect idyllic life and then and then they just snap than they. They did what they did they killed. And it just didn't seem real that I could put together someone who I who I found so nice and sweet and charming. To be the same kind of person who would do something like that. So it was really hard to kind of reconcile those two different personalities that I. I saw. To Echo, alleys words headed someone so charming and sweet. End Up being dubbed the fatal attraction killer. How did she stand over Diane? And shoot her in the chest. Those who are close to the case or familiar with this case, generally belong to one of two schools of thought about this murder. The first belief system is that Jenny. In. A fit of violent rage. Murdered her lover's wife in cold blood. So that she could have him. Then, there's the other side. The other side believes that Jenny. Who has a reminder was deeply religious an unhappy in her marriage. With. So naive. And so impressionable. that. She was able to be manipulated by Brian. Hood. Who use the Bible? Scripture. To play on the twenty eight year olds weaknesses. The truth is only Jenny really herself in a few individuals she confided in know the truth about how Jenny came to destroy her life while taking the life of loving mother Diane, hood dealing with her, and luckily for us, alley, is one of those people. Got To know her, she was actually very open and willing to talk about her crime which I also find very interesting because I think a lot of times. You would expect someone to not WanNa talk about something like that. In Two Thousand Eleven Vincent Carol for the Denver. Post wrote the following quote. This is how a witness Jennifer released crime or calls its climax outside a community center in. Colorado Springs. I saw her is Karen. Johnson said in the dark is in full of hate she walked over to where Diane was lying Diane was begging for her life and she took very careful aim and shot her again. in the same article in stark contrast. Vincent Carroll wrote how the judge who presided over Jennifer really's trial set allowed in court quote. Had you not been involved with Brian? Hood? I doubt you would have even ever committed anything worse than a traffic violation. Vincent Carroll continued quote chivalry rains even when murder most foul occurs. The observation maybe tragically true. But so what? Every life has a turning point in most of them occur by chance many of us never face the temptation a monstrous. But many others do in May somehow overcome it. So those of you listening, what do you believe? In next week's episode with allies continued help as she walks us through her personal experience with Jennifer really will task you to decide for yourselves can the power of remorse and redemption even begin to chip away of the magnitude that the wrongdoing of murder percents Huge. Thank you to Allie and she'll be with us next week to help us conclude this two part episode on Diane Hood and Jennifer really the fatal attraction killer and if you're listening out there and you have a story would like to tell, please write us at. Hello at the first degree PODCAST DOT COM while you're at it, you can follow some instagram at the first degree at Alexis linkletter at Bill Jensen at Jack Vanik join our facebook group by searching the first degree in the search bar we're talking true crime time and stick around because we're going to kill some time. And remember only you can prevent serial killers. And keep your friends close. But not. Class UH. That Guy. Was Good. Okay Great. Maybe. It probably wasn't insulated your day. Pumpkin cheesecake. Case, shot up to our team jared Monica for his epic. Sound design creates all of our original music for the first degree, our podcast producing team caitlyn Cleveland Taylor Rogers Allen. Santiago for podcast one research sources for this episode includes the Denver Post the Denver at AP news the Denver Channel KK TV People Court documents and remember our first guest is always our largest. Surgical. said, Mr Worldwide, victim Paris. I had the US real name. The podcast from negative to positive, which you could catch podcast podcast one spotify. Rattle. I don't know if you know how much they play on the Roy anywhere my brother no matter how much bread remained off you can't take with right how many houses 'cause whatever we acquired can't take with with I said, anything we make is always backed up. Why are we starting to podcast? Well, it's real simple with the times were living in right now in the world I think you need to be motivated inspired educated aware. Positive. So what I'm here is just a motivate the world. Let him know we talk To you won't hear the troop at four to the podcast. I, look forward to show a job teaching you how to take it from a negative to a positive. So get rid from negative to positive which you could catch on the podcast podcast one in spotify. All right well, welcome to another episode of killing at time. The gang is almost all back together we're on the same coast. Los Angeles County, which is a drastic improvement from where we were last week. As far as city I mean we're on the same. Time. Zone, which is nice. So now we're not getting any like early tax I'm glad to have you guys back. I'm glad you made back in one piece. If there was an apocalypse, we could find all each other and then be able to work through it together as opposed to being three thousand miles away several. I. Don't even know where you live billy you're very your your living situation is allusive to me I have no idea. It isn't I like to keep it that way it's just hogwarts from my house and that's it. I just I envisioned you just living in a basement somewhere with no windows. US Not quite that. But yeah, almost that's more my soul Yes. So for this week's killing time I thought that we could have a little bit of like a Halloween talk because. People. Love. A Halloween candy and I thought, we could dive into some deeper topics both the first and I wanted to talk about it. So funny what our listeners latch onto and from last week's episode. So many of our listeners roden about billy's comment about Lubbock Texas and its distance to. Dallas. This on the facebook comments were outraged and what I wanted to say is like. I loved her first degree Bryce but he's the one who told me the whole thing about Odessa in that high school that's portrayed in Friday night lights being fifteen minutes away or whatever. So yeah. People like condemn me for not doing research. But I took the word of the person from there. And the other thing I can't really explain the other thing without pointing a finger at some when else which I refused to do. So I will be accountable. I've made so many worst mistakes. I'll. This feels good being criticized for this. Noble. Like it is just. So distract my bigger mistakes that I'm constantly making. Yeah. You're like this is nothing all do one, hundred, million more of these. Oh, that's felt great. I was like Oh when I see like a barrage of like tags on facebook I'm like shoot who did I offend like what did I put them out of business? What have I done died I just looked. Fine well, it wasn't even. It will it was billy looking stupid because he was the one that said it. But everybody knows billy doesn't these things. I'm just hired healthy bring me in here. The. Pop culture references that we understand as pop culture references from the early nineteen hundreds. That's what he's here to provide the underdog every podcast and people have to I need to get DM's of people defending you to me about about how mean I am so fast, what you're here, my pop culture references from the early nineteen hundreds. I. Appreciate. That may I may I talk about my model T. and my butter churn? About it those are that's not that's just history class. A. Store, the nineteen hundreds crashed. In the early nineteen hundreds. Okay. But I WANNA know who had hit song during the model t release. Kind of jacket was Henry Ford wearing brand. That would impress me that would impress you. I will look that up. Then I feel like this. This is kind of negative knowledge that you would nobility some a little bit disappointed. I was I'm not afford guy more of a Chevy guy. Well you drive a lexus by the one. Posed are okay. So Before we started the PODCAST, we're talking about spooky shows and have we all watched the haunting of blind manner. Yes have you watched it billy So, this is like such a good. Spooky. Watch. And while we were watching it, I cheered I don't really watch spooky movies or shows. I'm not a spooky show watcher but you know I'm trying to get festive especially 'cause there's nothing to do right now. He gets very freaked out by spook. The moments I mean, I don't I don't want to I don't. have any spoilers. Honestly that show is too complicated despoil you'd be like Oh, the person's a ghost and it'd be like. Like cannot even if you're like at the last episode, you can't spoil it because it's just. So there's throwing everything. In convoluted. Yeah. I. Don't I. Watched Multiple Episodes Multiple Times to be like am I understanding this? Right? Well, we had to do the. We had to do the jump on it like we used to do for loss to where it's like please early game of thrones the studio please explain what the Hell I just watched. We literally watched each episode three times that it was almost like we were in that scene with the cook where he's talking about, he has to chop the vegetables. Chef and everything we were in that scene. No but I was like, are we in his memories are her memories and then we were like then with Henry like I'm like Oh, is he talking to himself for to a ghost or his conscience or or to his brother? Who's looks like him as come back as him so he can look 'cause. Dominic made some comment like you've to look live with yourself i. think that's what he said. He's like you can live with yourself now and I think that it was a play on that but it could have been his brother embodied in him like there's no way to know but I really loved it. It was like the most beautiful show ever seen, Oh yeah it was I mean I what spooked you jared what spooks Gio I just only jump scares at all of any kind. Do jump scares. So like if something he you know you can always tell them. There's GonNa be a jump scare. So jared gets very like. recoiled and. I. was actually like totally beautiful. I love all the entire theme of it was incredible. It was just Yup. and. You know what I learned is like the only thing scarier than a scary face is no face Oh. Yeah. I was like a paint paint me paint you're horrified with like you can imagine what horrible faces on there but like a blank canvas is a lot scarier than in being on the nose with stuff because it's always the idea of something is so much scarier than it actually is we're actually talking about this exact same thing about how when movies end up showing the monster or whatever, and being such a let down and you're like, Oh, well, that was it. Yeah. It's usually because the graphics are bad. They can't even make. Let's. See a reason why you don't see the shark for the first half of the movie jaws and. Now you know not to bring it back around the true crime but that's what Michelle said about the golden state killer and Michele McNamara. She said like you'll you'll lose your power once we see your face and it's true. Once you saw him. Yeah there was a lot less people writing about I have to lock my doors and do all that stuff and it wasn't just because he was caught. It was because he saw his face in the new like you know what he looked like. Right, but in in a certain sense I agree with her statement but I also think that his ordinariness. And then you think about what he did is really. Terrifying for me because he looks more grandfatherly than most people's grandfathers. So the idea that in wholesome guy with it on his knee at Christmas could have done the things this guy did is scarier than never having seen his face because at least I could project some horrific gruesome ghastly person onto that will. You think of somebody like Richard Ramirez. And early. Like Ing Terrifying Looking, and you're like, oh. You're one. That's like on the nose killer like dangerous person is. Charles Knowlton and it's like Jodi Enzo. Had Friends who thought he was the best guy in the world. He's got pictures. He's got pictures holding fish like every guy on tinder has by the way from Amazon. Yeah. Like a tinder picture. Yeah. So it's like that's how a he's like an old man basic bitch. He's a serial killer. He's got pictures of him wearing a Simpson's shirt. Circa one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety ooh, jared shaking his head. It's very blasphemous well, and you know what? If? That's so weird. What if that Simpson's t-shirt ended up going to the goodwill and some unsuspecting person ended up buying it like the weird connections that you could have to somebody and not ever? No. You know what the weird thing about that is an t-shirt is it's it's when homer was was was like a disciplinarian and when he would like choke part and stuff before he turned to like that sort of Dreamer dopey dreamer guy, you know what I mean. So he had he had. homer when homer was like a bad guy. And I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. Like the angry homer he had which was just in the first episode two seasons really have seasons. Yeah. I. Don't even remember that from the Simpsons homer's homer's just yelling a lot in the beginning and he's choking Bart and he's like he's just like a mean guy and then he just comes like author screamer and you'll love him. Wow. They probably really needed to make that switch. Walsum alcoholic. Yeah Ninety. Wholesome crashed alcoholic. So in the light of like Halloween, spooky things. What is your guys? Is a favourite Halloween film or? The one of the most. My favorite movie of all time is the shining. So could classic Cinematic Lee. So beautiful I love old homes I, love rural isolation like it's like a house I grew up in I just love it I love it. I. Love Jack Nicholson is acting crazy ella creepy little boys. It's a whole thing also and jared's best costume ever. China trying to yeah. That was good What about you, belly? In terms of favorite horror movie, it would be poltergeist. Yep that's one of mine too for a number of reasons. The best probably is that that movie was rated PG when it came out, it was s pg go home on come on in PG. Yeah. One of the scariest movies of all time would've asked rated pg what would make a movie? When did the poultry nece pulled tremendous amount Like probably like eighty early eighties so. What a rated R.. No idea. If, they would've thrown in the F. Word or throw in a boom they might have made it are there was no pg thirteen at the time but they said you know what? This is fine for kids the move the headstones, but you didn't move the bodies. The scene with him in the Mir with his face when his face peeling off that's plagiarized, right? That was one of the guys. Yeah. Yeah. And then the yeah just the. You know the the TV when the TV static on it, which was the thing that probably before your generation but for my generation and like Oh that TV is going to be talking to you it scared the hell out of everybody. I'm sure you're scared to ever be in a room with the TV ever again. Like by yourself. Pop Up. Well in the cloud and the tree I mean there's there's a million moments swimming pool everything. But what about you Jack? So polarized and the exorcist I feel like are just classics a movie that. To me up. Other than pet cemetery me up. When because there is a scene in pet cemetery where a little toddler. Bike is at a park and just stumbles out into the road and gets run over by a semi truck and I think that is one of the most terrifying scenes. I've ever seen in a movie. And then saw. Scary movies for me for a very long time is really agree. Yeah Casare presented all of the things that you can all these painful scenarios that you can enjoy yourself enduring. In. It's like everyone's Kranji. Like the the equivalent of like having your fingernails ripped out like you cringe thinking about it because of the guy of that area or whatever. The one guy that had the kids. Yeah. The one guy that had I remember there was one seeing that the guy had to cut off his own leg for something to free himself and just yet the scenarios that looks like if you got stuck in that situation, so you would have to do it. And that is to it's like psychologically. So Dob will the movie that Jimmy up if that's the game we're playing is human centipede. Anyone else that one I've never seen it saw that. Oh. This don't do bathroom humor after you watch it. You'll understand. Why I know Yes I have seen it and I really don't the. Reason why you why you don't do bathroom. There's other reasons for that but. Why like why I mean what Ritz really because of human centipede because you're afraid that you will, you will get caught by a German guy, and then he'll make you turn into a centipede with two other people. And your digestive tract will turn into that I'm very empathetic picture things that happen if people happening to me even if it's physical, even if it's like. Some. Disgusting Scenario. If. Repulsed by talking about things like that like after the that movie really messed me up. Smelling things like months. there. I refuse to watch that movie I. Feel like that Cross actually think you should because I feel like you've a boyfriend that will like help you enjoy it how how. Just trust me. Just trust me. I'm not even GonNa, gain to what just what in my head so I take. That we will call it. Okay time of Death Fifteen, thirteen beep. BOOP. Beat Billy. Beep. Come stay and play out live Casino Hotel. Welcome to one of the biggest casinos in the country with luxurious clean rooms, upscale dining in the grandest payouts. Now offering stay play and all in packages including fifty dollars free slot play VIP parking the Ip Casino Access and more book. Now at live casino dot com or call four four, three, four, four, five, two, nine, two, nine at Arundel Mills must be twenty one please play responsibly for how visit empty gambling dot org or call one, eight, hundred gambler. My local coffee shop is my penn state world campus classroom. Giving me the full Penn state experience online. It's home to thousands of students working together with faculty to advance our careers, change our careers or finally earn our degree. My classroom is just like every penn state classroom because it is getting me to where I want to be. 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Diane Brian Hood Diane Hood murder Noelene Jenny Jennifer jared Monica Karen First Karen Ben investigator billy robbery John Mullany WanNa Lupus Colorado Springs spotify United States Jack
Sabrina Bebb-Jones (PT 1 of 2)

The First Degree

38:03 min | 2 months ago

Sabrina Bebb-Jones (PT 1 of 2)

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on apple. Podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast you know. I actually don't think that there's been a time that i've found an apartment. Not through apartments dot com. I love this website and with the most rental listings anywhere. There's no wrong way to get into your right place on. Apartments dot com for instance. You could latch. It's to the wall and throw magnetic dart as a rental search map or you could bother your phone screen and peanut butter. Let your free roommate lick their way to tasty new pet friendly plays or you could just use a tablet like spirit board and call upon your beloved late. Nanna says she gets her say two and parman comm even offers virtual tours. You can explore your potential plays from anywhere with an internet connection at a bar and a first date. Knock yourself out on a tandem bike peddling along the beach not advisable but certainly not impossible either around base camp in mount everest. Now that's nearing the summit of always you can search from the tried and true methods in virtually enhanced techniques to the unorthodox approaches. You're bound to discover that special somewhere to call your own on apartments dot com the most popular place to find a place degree degree. I i agree. He thinks are supposed to have in movies. Not real life and haunted me in my head. I had my little daughter my little precious daughter sleeping in the other room. And i was having a conversation with the murder. Of course we didn't know that at the time but just the reality of somebody who had done something so evil had been in the sphere of my davies. You never fully let paco look of the first degree. That your podcast. You might end up on my name. Is jack vanik. I'm sitting for away from alexis. Linkletter and billie johnson. But you know it doesn't feel like i'm far away because alexes she's doing weird little point at me through the zoom recording and it's really bringing me joy right now is being being the stage manager your age traction to go So today's case is part one of two parts of sabrina bob jones. So if you're one of our first sees it likes to listen to everything in a little benji situation than wait until next week to listen but you'll be missing out on a bunch of fun and not so fun a whole week a whole week of first degree you'll be missing out on so you'll be missing out on it before we get into the episode. I already look at the days today and they are fucking fantastic so billy. What day is it today or well. Today is wednesday may twenty six and its world dracula. Ooh and you know we in the killing time. I start off the episode saying hosted by two girls one goth. That is our new tagline and when we describe ourselves yet via emoji it's the two girls and then dracula yes hell. Yeah this was. This was the day that bram stoker's came out in eighteen ninety seven november. Whoa i'm into that time ago. What other days are their ability. There are some other good ones. There were some other good ones. There's national paper airplane day. Not what. I was looking for all right. But then there's also one but two things that that alexis hates. It's national blueberry cheesecake day and national cherry dessert day. They doubled down on this day. Could hurt is so disgusting. Why would anyone eat anything sweet. That wasn't chocolate or something creamy one of the to listen. I like it. But i it like a cherry tart cherry jamming it. I like a yeah. I like a jammy tart. But i like chocolate better. I will always choose chocolate. But i'm not a young bj us. You don't like peanut butter. Jelly a hate jelly. Know how. I would assume just even if you hate it that you would like peanut butter and jelly of never met somebody that doesn't like pj. I think with the jelly jelly because the peanut butter is very sticky. It's very dry. Heat a little bit of jelly. But i am very much three to one ratio peanut butter jackass. You need a little a little butter sandwich on hot bread and the peanut butter becomes a little thinner and hot and a little runny and then got a delicious situation. And that's it that's right Okay well billy forgot the the best day that is today and that is it is world redhead day. ooh which. I can't believe you didn't start off with because jerry gave me a little look. jared really. sorry everyone that's jack who has shared in the same room as her that jack and our listeners who can't discern our voices from one another that is jack. Jared equals life partner. We'll happy happy world redhead day. I have always loved the redheads. They are my fave so celebrate by going out in the sun today. Get new fricks all right. Well that's enough of that. So let's the night and turn up your anxiety because this could be you move through our lives and let people in and out of our orbits constantly and you know what we take it lightly. We engage with strangers acquaintances business associates friends and even family with the level of inherent. Trust a trust. They don't deserve in a trust. We don't have time to pressure test but as you know as a consumer of true crime in listener of this podcast that quite often. This trust is betrayed. Today's case takes us back to september sixteenth of nineteen ninety seven movies. mrs dalloway. the game l. a. confidential were in theaters. Honey by mariah carey was topping the charts followed by men in black by well smith and tub-thumping by chombo one but it was an iconic week and music time connick and the setting today's cases grand junction colorado. Which is located in the western part of the state along the colorado river and that area's nickname river city because two major rivers meet near the city which many locals refer to as a junction hence the name grand junction. during the nineteen seventies. the nearby valley became an economic point of interest because of its vast supply of oil shales. But as i i agree michelle tells us grand junction was much smaller. Nineteen ninety-seven than it is today grand junction. It's on the western slope of colorado. It's actually if you're there. A lot of the streets are need like twenty eight and a half road because that's how far away they are from the utah border. It's more of a desert. I think the population it was a writer on the time. That grand junction officially metropolis. So they hit that like two hundred thousand mark. He start getting kind of more like chain restaurants and things like that there was now. It's actually a university but moved. The state college was in town not a lot of life businesses by the late nineties. Grand junction was trying to designate itself from the surrounding metro area and to do this the city needed to attract families and there was one way to do that or is Is kind of part of what grand junction has been trying for several years to attract more of they really try to tourism to come in for things like mountain biking hiking because the the may which is kind of more mountain is really beautiful and so the monument and the monument is very much like reds. Like kind of like. What did you think of lead rocks or or utah with arches and some of those areas but really beautiful so grand junction. Sounds like a great place for a family to settle down especially a family with children and it just so happens that children were a big part of michelle's job at the time as well as part of the story that we're telling. Today i was working at a small daycare childcare center and i had a daughter of my own at the time who was about to sushil worked in a daycare. She normally took her daughter to work with her however one day she decided to stay home because either her or her daughter were sick but while she was at home. Michelle's day took an unexpected turn. They got a phone call somewhere in the late morning early afternoon and it was my boss and they said michelle. Have you talked to marcus or sabrina. Do you know anything. Because they're missing. Because at that point the police contacted the daycare center. And i was just shocked. I said what you know. How can they be missing. This is insane. So i bet you're wondering who are marcus in sabrina. While they're the parents of boy named daniel who was a student so to say the daycare center where michelle worked or little boy who attended the daycare center. Michelle had made a connection with daniel's mother thirty-one-year-old. Sabrina bed jones and she started babysitting daniel outside of daycare classroom at our own home when sabrina and her husband thirty-three-year-old marcus bob jones needed childcare. And remember how grand junction was trying to revive tourism. While sabrina and marcus were a couple who were contributing to that dream. Because the reason they moved to this area was to buy restore and operate the local melrose hotel and at one point. Sabrina even given michelle a tour of the hotel to show the updates. They'd made now. This hotel was small. It had eight rooms and each one had an individual personality according to their website. They're offering victorian atmosphere with the convenience of the present day. And if you take a look at the pictures of the hotel. It's like one of those really cute quaint downtown hotels. Two stories just looks like a great place to stay. I totally they're in. It looks like a really cute little boutique hotel like i feel like when we went to crime com was it crime clan when meeting with pain lindsay. We stayed at like a little boutique. Hotel sorta like this. That was yeah. That totally reminds me of it. Super q and i love how there there is that lake. It's very vintage feeling but you know it's like nice and clean on the inside that's what it looks like. Yeah guess the original was built in one thousand nine hundred and if you google at you can see the before and after and structurally they kept the same in the updated it but it looks like a modern update like it still has a retro feel brand new. It looks gorgeous. And we'll post these on our social media to totally one time. We had dr daniel off with them and they had given us a tour of the hotel. And you know sabrina. Marcus are showing us. The hotel and sabrina was so proud of the work she done at the hotel. You could tell and it really was. She had done a tremendous amount of work from where it had been. So we're getting a clearer picture of sabrina. She was passionate kind and committed to transforming the hotel and contributing to her community. Marcus on the other hand. He was kinda harder to get to know than sabrina wise. I think he's kind of bit of a salesman. I would say he has that kind of that personality where he's very confident. Very sure themselves. I would say he would do things to sort of the power position. In conversation. kind of cocky. He was british and he's the only british person that i knew in graduation at the time. So i mean at the time you're kind of dislike. Well it's it's the accent. And i think i really like sabrina a lot to tell you the truth okay. So there's the background on this family and how michelle had come to know them so we're going to snap back to this weird phone call where michelle learns that these people that she's gotten to know rather well were missing. She talked on the phone to the police and they said yeah they're missing. Nobody knows where they are. Have you heard anything. But michelle hadn't heard anything. It was relate to her on this call because she was the couple's babysitter at the police wanted to speak with her. And so i think. I called the police and i said hi. You know i'm here. I wanted to speak with me. And so that first day thursday i thought the whole family was missing and so i was scared for everybody. These first calls to the police would be the beginning of a heartbreaking sequence of events in a string of disturbing revelations that would place michelle center of the investigation into this missing family. This brings us to some key questions. How could a family from such a nice area like grand junction. Just suddenly disappear. And how does michelle fit into all this while to find the answers. We gotta go back to the beginning. Starting from when michelle met the jones family michelle's interaction with the jones. Family began innocently enough. I sabrina and marcus jones when they brought their son too bright beginnings for childcare daniel. Their son wasn't in my class. Initially but it was a small center. It was a co-op so one of the draws was parents could do volunteer work to come in and cutting do maintenance and things and get a little credit on their bill so parents were pretty involved. And you kinda knew everybody back. Then i was in my early twenties. I was twenty two. And i had this little girl and childcare does not pay extremely well so i did quite a bit of childcare for people in the side here and there it was kind of a good side hustle and it was great because my daughter always liked playing with other children so i could make a little money on the side and it was kind of a little play for my daughter sabrina. Michelle ended up chatting and sabrina was thrilled to find out michelle babysitting on the side. The melrose hotel which sabrina and her husband. Marcus were reviving was essentially a fulltime project which entailed a lot of late nights and weekends. And it's no surprise. The hotel business is extremely time consuming. Which is why they needed a reliable babysitter like michelle. She needed someone for saturday mornings to watch daniel because she needed to do some things that their hotel and on saturday mornings marcus was doing tours with guests at the hotel so she would bring daniel to me during that time and i would watch him for about five hours on saturday mornings from michelle's perspective. It seemed as though. Sabrina was the one who handled most of daniel's day to day needs. I definitely some more of sabrina than marcus. At some point daniels moved into my classroom and daniel was very attached with mother. But sabrina was really really attentive as a mother. She was the type of personality does she would rather have stayed a little longer and kinda get him situated and get him comfortable before. She laughed another thing to note. Sabrina was extremely punctual. She was also the type of mine. Who if she was going to be just even a like five ten minutes late. We got a phone call from her and that's not usual forever. Everybody but she would want us to let danielle know like he's waiting on me. I mean she's three so he doesn't know time but she knows that he's going to be expecting her so if she she was concerned if he wakes up and i'm not there yet let him know that you know i'm on my way so she's thought of him all the time. Michelle was a big fan of serena's and they started to interact very frequently with the comings and goings of watching daniel at daycare and at home. Which brings us to a phone call. Michelle received from sabrina the week before the family went missing. The phone is woken me up. And so i was a little. You know. just kinda like that groggy. And she sat more urgent than she usually did. When she asked. If i could watch daniel and shoot of pleading with me. Could i take him home with me from work on tuesday so her and marcus could have a day together so the plan here to be clear that daniel would be dropped off daycare and then michelle would take daniel home with her. Which meant that. Sabrina and marcus could have the entire day together until they had to pick daniel up late that tuesday night and they were gonna go to dinosaur national park according to the national park service website when describing dinosaur national park. They say dinosaurs once roamed here. They're fantastic remains are still visible all embedded in the rocks today the mountains desert and untamed rivers flowing deep canyons. Supporting array of life petroglyphs hint at earlier cultures later. Homesteaders net loss found refuge. Here whether you're passionate science adventure history or scenery dinosaur offers much to explore. So clearly sabrina and her husband. Marcus wanted to drive the two hour to this park to see all dinosaur national park had to explore so anyway back to michelle's phone call whispering about day and i remember her saying before it had a chance to even say yes or no she said please michelle like. We really need this and that sticks with me. I wasn't really aware that they were having marital problems. I'm not sure that's something that you know. She would have spoken to me about even at the time. It kind of caught me off guard. And i said oh. Yeah of course. And we made the arrangements forties later. Sabrina drops daniel off at daycare. So tuesday came and we talked and we had just kind of a normal conversation about that. They would be gone for the day. What time they would pick him up for me that evening and i told her of like this is what i was gonna make for dinner or do you think this is fine. While you're like that. And she said oh yeah she likes you know those things. She didn't seem nervous. She didn't seem upset but she did seem in a hurry to go to kind of get on the road which is understandable because dinosaur is not super close to grand junction. The day proceeded as normal long. So kinda go through the day were daycare and i bring home with me with my daughter. Were home that evening. The kids are playing fed them dinner basic night then it starts getting later the league after noon and evening proceeded as normal as well and then. It came time for sabrina to pick daniel. I was really surprised when it was. You know. pass the time that they were supposed to be there. And i hadn't gotten a phone call from sabrina. I hadn't heard anything all day. And i have been surprised that she didn't call me that evening to verify that you know everything was going fine with daniel. Okay that surprised me. Because that wasn't like her either but they were hiking and they were in the wilderness. All of those things. I kind of disregarded that at the time it was getting late so daniil start getting fussy. Which was pretty understandable daniel. She wasn't really wanting to sleep at my house because it was different i was sitting on the couch with him and we were watching cartoons and i think it was about forty five minutes after the time that ben was supposed to be picked up. Marcus came to get him. Marquez came to get him. that was also abnormal. All now had never picked him up from our house before one time they had gone to a concert and that night they both came but he didn't even pick in a lot very often from the center on his own. I mean there would be a few rare times with see him but we definitely saw bring them more or they'd come together but is coming without sabrina. That was the norm. Okay so i bet that your true crime brain being activated like all of ours is because a lot of things are really not lining up but at the time. Michelle really had no way of knowing how key this interaction with marcus would prove to be. It was late at night. She was tired and she's just relieved. That one of daniel's parents is finally there pick them up wrecked so. I do think it's interesting to note that. She knows that she's never really interacted with marcus. Sabrina really takes most of the care at this point. It's so easy to be like. They were hiking all day. Sabrina could retired. Maybe there's this wouldn't necessarily throw up red flag. Well it's just one of those things that it's everything. In retrospect right because that could have come and gone and it could have been it could have been such an innocuous sort of situation that really had no relevance whatsoever but it's only looking back and seeing what transpired before and after whatever it was that made it such a interesting moment. Yeah and like we said you know. It's it's late at night. She's tired she's not. She's going to question a lot less. Thanks what i can finally go bed. Yeah just wanna go to sleep. It's a moment that seems so benign but something you would dissect over and over if you learned later that something bad happened. Yeah he comes in. She doesn't say anything about sabrina. And he's like oh come on we gotta go you know and he hands me the money for babysitting. Just kinda hands it to me so the day. Michelle babysat daniel for. Sabrina and marcus was tuesday on wednesday morning. Michelle went to work at the daycare as usual. I actually switched from the classroom. I wasn't so i now no longer saw daniel like all day when he was a daycare. I didn't. I would see him in the morning when he first got there. Michelle didn't see. Daniel that wednesday take care. But he was there he had attended. Apparently marcus had brought daniel in. I heard from other staff at the time it brought daniel in later than normal. Daniel was really upset. She was crying a lot. Then we get to thursday thursday. Either i or my daughter was sick so we didn't go to work that day. But i got a phone call. Police contacted the daycare center. The whole family was missing and this brings us back to the moment that michelle received that call and she learned that the family was missing. Michelle had been in close contact with the family in the days just prior so naturally the police were very interested to speak with her and they set an appointment for the next day for me to come in that morning and talk to them. Michelle was perplexed by this whole thing and she began running through all the possible scenarios in it was at that point. A very disturbing one had crossed her mind. I was you know scare for everybody and they had a burglary at the hotel. I wanna see maybe a month before. And their cell phones had been stolen. And now in retrospect and kind of suspect of this situation but their cell phone had been stolen so that was the first thing i thought you know. They'd had a burglary. Somebody can back. Somebody took this family and that's just really scary. When michelle met with the police she was really worried by this point she understandably formed a bond with daniel and sabrina too and the idea that something sinister could have happened to them was really terrifying notion so when she spoke to the police they asked her normal things. You'd expect in the preliminary stages of a missing persons case she recounted to them what had transpired how. Sabrina had astra to watch daniel so that she and marcus could spend the day together. Dinosaur national park. Marcus pick annual up even casual. You've been nonchalant. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary but after speaking to them she went home without much. Resolution in the whereabouts of the family was a true mystery in all michelle could do at. This point was hoped they would alternate okay. So my mom's side of the family the patera side We are very well known for having gut problems kind of inside joke because we all have some problems in one way or another. And that's why. I was so excited to see that seed was a sponsor on the first degree. And they have this amazing thing called the daily symbiotic. So the deletion biotic as a broad spectrum tune probiotic and prebiotic and it's a proprietary formulation of twenty four distinct probiotic strains in scientifically studied dosages so it supports and benefits beyond the gut including gastrointestinal function. 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On davis entire mystery began unfolding so after she spoke to the police she went home in waited for news. It was days later that she'd get some marcus had been found and he was alive. I found out marcus within las vegas. He had tried to kill himself in one hotel room. Daniel had been located as well and he had left. Daniel alone in different hotel. Daniels found a loan. Just completely it'd be ended in a hotel room and marcus within a different hotel and he had tried to kill himself but he wasn't successful. Markets have been discovered with a self inflicted gunshot wound to his jaw when the hotel maid had found him. There was a note lying nearby. The note was addressed to his wife. It said quote sabrina. Initially you may not think this is the best. I can't change who i am. I understand your anger. But now as the years pass that will diminish. This is the only way. I can be without you or daniel. Please don't hate me markus. Okay so what do we think about this. It's bizarre no well. Let's talk about the fact that sabrina was in dinosaur national park. That's where they were together the day that michelle babysat for them right. So what in. God's name is he doing las vegas where is daniel. Why did you miss when you try to kill yourself. Why did it hit you in the jaw. And what does this mean. It sounds like this note is him trying to set up an alibi. Yeah or or potentially him writing to her if she's already dead and him and maybe even daniel is going to meet them in the afterlife. It's incredibly bizarre. And you have to wonder when he wrote it. But i have to think that he wrote it right before he he did this. Gunshot wound to jaw. I mean if you're thinking like a defense attorney it could also be sabrina tim. He having horrible like cheated or blew their life savings gambling in vegas and in. There's no recovery for life. I mean those are the potential scenarios. And i well and it's just like the way writing her no is also setting up the fact that if he's reading her no he thinks that she's alive. Yeah well here's a question. Do guilty people are innocent. People shoot themselves in the jaw because jaws pretty close to your face and brain. So it's pretty. It's a pretty risky shot to take. Don't know i don't know when i noticed that. I thought that he just punked out when he was trying to trying to kill himself and then he moved. He moved at the very last minute. Or maybe subconsciously. Yeah something like maybe. He had the gun right underneath his jaw Right by his neck and then he flinched at the very last second and then it went it. Shade sorta office. Joe possibly so marcus. Although he was injured was accounted for and daniel had been kind of for too but the big question is where was sabrina and there are other questions. Was marcus with daniel in las vegas and then there's that note. What was that not all about. At this point there were few answers to be had but once news of what happened in vegas was made public. Michelle new one thing for sure. I knew what hundred percent he had killed. Sabrina no doubt no doubt in my mind. I knew in my gut. There was no way if she was alive. If she was walking this earth that she would not be trying to contact her son. I knew if she was okay she would have called us. Michelle had no idea that on the day. She agreed to babysit for sabrina. Bob jones she would find herself in the center of sabrina 's murder. The haunted me in my head. I had my little daughter. My little precious other daughter sleeping in the other room. And i was having a conversation with them or the reality of that that somebody who had done something so evil had been in the sphere of my baby. You never fully let that go by this point in our story. It's becoming more and more clear that daniel was in michelle's care serena's life was cut short. Unfortunately this story would drag on for years. Included a cloud of suspicion move overseas a poker tournament an extradition all of this and more next week on part two of the story. Tell them a big. Thank you to michelle being our first degree this week. She'll be with us next week as well. If you're listening out there and you have a story to tell please email us. Hello at the i. Re- podcast dot com. You can follow us on instagram at the first adults. This linkletter up bill. Johnson at jack vanik jenner first degree facebook page talking true crime all the time and check back in our feet tomorrow for a brand episode of killing time. Remember only you can prevent serial killers. Keep your friends close but track copy cooked day animals happy at national bread world day. Or whatever. We shot out to jared monica for scoring and creating original music for the first degree producing by caitlin cleveland producing an additional writing taylor rogers and producing by alan santiago for podcast. One sources for this episode. Are the bbc the post independent the daily mail the aspen daily news and the denver post and as always our first degree guests is always largest source. Hi everyone this is jillian with court. Junkie court junkie is a true crime. Podcast that covers court cases and criminal trials using audio clips and interviews with people close to the cases. Court junkie is available on apple podcasts. And podcast one dot com. If you've got an insurance question you could talk to a park ranger. But the only quotes they'd probably give you would be about the beauty of a fallen leaf or ripples in a pond. Not the kind that could save you money on your policies or you could talk to your local geico agent who an expert navigator of the insurance landscape. They could use their expertise to guide you on ways to save hundreds on your policies while leaving it up to your park ranger to save the wilderness and any endangered picnic baskets go online to geico dot com slash local to find a geico agent near you a thirty day. Free trial of live by live. Plus and you'll get unlimited skips commercial free music and all of the podcasts and live streaming events you can handle visit live x live dot com slash. Podcast one to learn more and start your free trial.

michelle sabrina daniel marcus Sabrina dinosaur national park Marcus melrose hotel jack vanik Linkletter billie johnson sabrina bob jones fricks jack mrs dalloway alexis chombo nearby valley Sabrina bed jones
Festivus

The First Degree

54:07 min | 8 months ago

Festivus

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast wine production now available on apple. Podcasts podcast one. Spotify and anywhere else. You get your podcasts free degree degree post degree first degree supposed to have in movies not walk into the first agree that true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is jack. Van comes in and kill our time. What we're doing killing dime. It's still the first degree. Podcast i'm sorry gees. Let me do my intro. I'm sorry far away from litter and billie jensen weight. Keep going and this is a special killing time. Episode of alexis wouldn't have interrupted me really sorry long day. Sorry jackie and what you're doing idiot. I'm sorry about that. It's quite outright. I mean it is. It does feel weird when we've done these episodes because this is actually the only the second one that we've done of a extra long killing time right. Yes and we want to explain ourselves for those of you who are hoping for our standard format. It's literally we never get a week off in these takes so much time and energy and also not as many people listen so we work extra hard even though it certainly time to maybe enjoy some time off and then half the people listened so this seemed like a fair compromise where we don't do nothing but we. It's not as in depth as our normal episode would be and we and i know that everybody on the facebook group. No i listened. I listened because we did this for the thanksgiving episode. We see our numbers. We see that they're half of what they normally are on these episodes. So you know why does well we might as well just shoot the shit and not have to research alexis doesn't have to research Gruesome murder for you know twenty hours for one week so we're really trying to we're trying to give you a break alexis right billy exactly right am. I can't take all the credit. Because now i don't do all the research taylor. Rogers one of our producers definitely has taken the weight off. while i write the episodes. He certainly gives me the foundation. So things taylor. Happy holidays but probably not. We don't even listen billie ones last time. You listen to podcasts. Four weeks ago really. Yeah why. Because i just wanted to self affirm something that you guys made fun of me about. So what was i. Don't remember it all becomes a blur. Here are real secret for me. I haven't listened in months. And you used to be so obsessed with listening every week while because i here's the thing i wanted to catch my own airs when when i was editing myself and when i was researching and writing it all myself when i was stringing out everything myself i was like i need like. I can't be mad at anyone if my fault so i wanted to catch my own mistakes now. I've delegated 'cause caitlyn. Cleveland shadow caitlyn strings. Out for us in like i. I'm so neurotic. Like i don't want to find mistakes in her work because i love her and she's so capable so booger mistakes. They don't exist because listeners. Just don't catch them. It's something only. I would catch because the listeners. Love it so i'm like unless unless you say the wrong lake shamass or shame or whatever that was the ted bundy. That's lake sammamish lakesha mess. Yeah they were different links but our first degree is the one who told me that about that. They were the same lake and she was from the area. So here's the thing. I also believe people which is my own fault but we we also just don't have the time or energy or manpower to fact check every single thing that we say in the absence. Sort of hoping for the bassett hank. We're doing our best. The facts are always correct as far as some of the nuances of like the things that could go either way that does happen like the pronunciation of something because it really is just like a very small operation over here guys in a weekly podcast. If you want us to move to biweekly we can cross our ts and daughter on. We do not want to do great so don't even give them the opportunity. Nobody wants biweekly. Podcast dude i'm going on what is stored and scales biweekly. And i listen to it. Even though skill tom he is. He's a deck. But goddamn podcast is good. Yeah he's so mean. And i'm just like heathrow's sassy comments i mean. He's not having a conversation with just himself. But like oh you listeners. Zoos snowflake some like who you're talking to a and then be rude. But he like loves to stir shit up. He's like on purpose. Mean he's it podcast troll but it's because he knows that people are talking shit in the sword and skill suburb at that he has gotten banned from. Oh totally. oh he's banned from it. Yeah he got banned from his own. Sub reddit i think. Don't quote me on this. But i'm pretty sure that he did. Because he was like trolling everybody. And then a lotta dachshund was happening. I don't know from which way but it was a whole to do. I love that for you. Should i share my mic. Buddhist story share your mic day story. So i am before we had our own podcast. I've always produced. Joe my god this story. This is a good story is a good story so i emailed them a story idea because you could do mission. It was before. I thought he was a deck and it was before we had our own podcast k. Mike rodak do this case. I produced an episode of snapped about it and i sent a bunch of links and i gave his info never heard anything. Then they're like drum roll. Our one hundredth episode is donna screen and ramsey screen out. That's what i sent him. He didn't even respond in a two part his one hundredth episode then when he was getting a ton of shit for He posted something on insuring. That was like don't email us story radio. We don't care it's our job something like that and i i. I responded on the instagram. I was like okay. Because i sent you. You're hundred your hundred episode idea. So maybe you do want people to email you and he responded. Who are you then. I think really quick you realize. And then he deleted his comment and mine like i was like okay. Dernie delete a dirty delete of both because i called him out. Because i'm like really don't people that email you because you still like it didn't steal it because i offered up but like a little response would have been appreciated and then to be route like not only did you see like oh sorry. Thank you for your one hundred episode contribution. Hugh deleted my my comment. I mean that's when you when you get when somebody delete something you know. Instagram is so crazy. 'cause you can delete comments. I think that is a wild future of instagram. That you've not able to. But no should internet mobs now where people turn on you for the for lies so maybe i get it. I don't know that there's a lot i mean. That was a feud that was a feud that like it was funny because we are absolutely nothing at the time. And we're like should we make it a few. Yeah let's play this up because maybe it'll start talking about us on his podcast and we'll blow us up even more. I want it yet now. I really yes now. It's it's never too bill yourself up on somebody else's misery who's miserable though. What are you talking about. At the end of the day. Alexis we bought. Like what is. What is your response about who's miserable. Never let not listening listening. I was listening and he was there. I know the story. I was there. I've heard the story world me. I think i think mike is a little bit miserable and is delighted. Ivan guy is not miserable. I think that guy has probably a better life than anybody i know. Because he doesn't give he acts like has he. Actually he has money. Like that's joy. However whatever i want it it is nice. It's a nice. I mean it's not nice but wouldn't it be nice to knock about anything like to not filter yourself associated pat though he he's doing what what people like howard stern do like. It's like shock culture. And you you win a certain amount of people over with that potentially do a corner for sure but then ernest miserable. How we're gonna therapy three times a week and he admits that he's miserable. Because of howard rare choice not miserable it. Have you listened to the show will tell you miserable miserable and that were too smart to be happy. you jack wait. What does that say about me. No you to like. We're all like we're all shoes self-aware in whatever but now howard us on ignorance is bliss for sure. This is a very. This took a turn this whole conversation. I think that what i wanted to ask is billy. What day is it today right. There's only one day today and it's festivus it's model tell you this. I got a lot of problems with you. People you're gonna hear about it right now because we're gonna do the airing of grievances okay. Well here's the thing i have. I have prepared a little bit of a festivus chat for us all to have. Because i think it is absolutely amazing that this episode actually does fall on festivus. And we're all seinfeld. Fans and i hope that lot of our of los angeles we want to explain. Why do we need to sign billion seinfeld character and our group Is he kramer. 'cause he's like long and lanky but he's not as lackeys character from that episode with the woman who doesn't move her arms when she walks i like our and also obscure works for billy. No i'm going to be the close talker going to be judge. Reinhold is the close talker sec. There's nothing worse than a close tucker especially now retired or woman who pronounces it. What does she pronounce it. The the pretend woman who george dates who says papier. Michelle your heartbeat michelle woman. Oh my god. I love okay damp licking. Yeah billy really. He's her he killed artisanal. You know because they didn't like her. I loved her but they didn't like her as they didn't like her as an actress like as a person so they killed her off. That i've watched behind the scenes thing really. Yep we're behind a behind. The scenes thing said that like we did not like her on the show. She was not fun to work with tv. Show like where did you watch. Unit about seinfeld. I'm sure i will not a link. They do that. God forbid you ever. Yes he would get that for you. Okay let me get into this festivus talk so i was doing a little googling like trying to prepare what we're going to talk about. Do you guys know the history behind festivals. Like how why it even is a thing. Do you know anything about this. A little bit no. Okay so i'm gonna go straight from the wikipedia article on. I'm gonna read too little blurbs from it because it's very interesting so it says and for anybody that doesn't i mean number one. Watch the festivus episode of seinfeld today because it's very festive. If you don't know about it you can learn about it. So says festivus is a secular holidays celebrated on december twenty third today as an alternative to the pressures in commercialism of the christmas season originally created by the okay. This is what's interesting came originally created by the author. Daniel o keefe festivus entered popular culture after it was made the focus of one thousand. Nine hundred seven seinfeld episode the strike. Which o'keefe's sign dan o'keefe code so this is actually a real. Oh wow day in situation that. The writer of this episode of seinfeld family actually celebrates and i think that is so. It's so funny and it's it's so seinfeld so it says okay. Marie like a little bit of the history behind that says o keefe was reluctant to insert his family's tradition into this episode but when executive producer is out berg and jeff shaffer caught wind of the bizarre holiday through his younger brother became curious than enthusiastic then insisted that it is the episode. She for literally called quote. That's the thing with seinfeld. Story is the real ones are always the best ones. There's nuance reality. Sometimes that is just perfect. We could have santa room for billion years and we never would have came up with festivus crazy in hilarious and just so funny so disturbing. It's awesome and i love that story. It's awesome that is great. I had no idea. That was the thing i love that. It's so just classic for a seinfeld. And larry david situation where it's like those actual every day real life situations and they really do end up making the best stories. It's too crazy to be true. Okay so after we come back from the break. 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And i'm going to kind of dive into each of them right. Are we ready so the first thing about festivals as you have to make your own festivus pole and that is an aluminum pole with a very high strength to weight ratio. Now do you guys have something in your house that you can make a festivus pole. And what would it be curtain rod. But it's horizontal aluminum. Right it has to be well okay. Let's we'll we'll expand beyond aluminum like if you had to make a festivus pole something in your house. what would it be. i have this late. That's like a spotlight. It has a long body like a poll. and then spotlight at the top. I would do it under on that. That's a good one and reduce the aluminum pole to restore so there. Actually is a festivus pole. I don't know if it's festivus. Pole dot com. But it's something like thought that you can obviously by festivus pole like me poll. Can you dance around it and do the little stream where thing or like. Oh a stripper dance. Maybe as well yeah maybe not disrespect festivus other way. Yeah we we shouldn't we would. Never shan't i think the only thing that i have in my apartment. And i don't even know if i have this. I assume that might have a broom somewhere. But i honestly don't have that. I don't think you have a broom at your. Do you have a broom. Well no because. I vacuum my wood floors. I have a woods would even i don't think where would you keep a broom jack Why do you have a swiffer. I could do a makeshift. This poll worker done if i can do worse. What about an outdoor one one of the polls for from your balcony polls. I feel like a festivus pole has to live on its own. You can't just make. It seems in your house. That's true ask. Activists had the stand at attention by itself. Yeah that's what it's all about. It does okay. Well i mean yours is probably the best because the the the poll on your light is very heavy. Yes it's swiffer metal really okay so the next part of festivus is you have to prepare your festivus dinner. The festivus dinner is a platter of meatloaf on a pile of lettuce. Now what do we think about. This sounds delicious actually. I'm all about me look really good. What is okay so number one. What else looking this up. I kind of the realization that. I don't think i've ever had meatloaf i don't know what do what do they usually make meatloaf with you think. Yeah he usually beef but like a meatloaf for me. I like turkey me love and it's like ground turkey like we're what you'd make tacos with or something like that. But then you massage lots of spices and flavors and things into it. Breadcrumbs celery chopped carrots onions and it ends up being. Yeah it's it can be good if you do like a nice healthy one two tomato sauce of just like took a brought i square. No it's like it's like if you took. Have you had like a stuffed pepper like pepper stuff with turkey and rice. It's like the insides of condensed together. So you could slice it. Make sandwiches out of it and stuff like that. It's delivering beef. I don't the beef kind. The turkey kind is good. The sounds like now alexis knows this. But like i was vegetarian for a long time and i'm still a little bit weird with meat like and i don't like meet looking honest like i don't like meet off of a bone or i don't like a meat touching the fat or anything like that like i wanna meet looking not like the thing it came from so maybe a meatloaf is for me because it's just a block of jess to block of stuff. Mother walk at the same time and that did not happen to me. I could eat like anything. Sorry sorry did it affected us differently. Okay well reasonably. My mother had a cookbook. It was the mccalls cookbook and she wants made a meatloaf and it was a meatloaf surprise inside the meatloaf as she cut through. It inside was a hard boiled egg. Oh that was the surprise. You say delicious and we never me and my sisters never let my mother. You know we we. We probably brought up every two years. What's wrong what's wrong with what she did. That's rightful. surprise is it just was line egg within the entire huge meatloaf. And it's like you're like you try to find the baby and her mom with the egg. You put egg on cheese. People put egg on burgers. People would eg in like tile. This is a hard boiled egg inside. I mean it's like a shelter. Stop no we need to stop being so judgmental about things because really when you when you really break it down and think about is just meatless from aig. Have you ever seen nineteen seventies. She did that hardware but she didn't cook it hard boiled. She just cracked in egg in there in cooked inside. She baked it. She didn't boil an egg and then put it in the meatloaf she. She cracked an egg and then covered up with more meat. And then i don't know what you did. I have a question. Did say when you when you when you cut into this meet like you're doing slice because a meal if you do slices right. It's like bread. Obviously loaf yeah or like when you cut into the meat slice with the hardboiled egg now is this egg and a perfect little like aac shake or nurse the slice like that yes because the perfect size rough interesting well i would like cracked it. It went in and she covered with me. No she had to harp at first because then it kept his cheap as as somebody that has never cooked anything in their life. I think if you just calls her. Jacqueline i jecklin bet you million dollars. Eleven right about this kind of thing. Before it's mobility actually listens for episodes about either way. Confirm yeah oh you listen to the episode about the willie billy thing steam. The vat yes. Welcome to the reality of your life are welcome. That was actually so funny. So funny steamboat. Bill it's like it's it's your relieve your subconscious putting all all the things together in your mind. It like made that week. We're pushing forward dan. I'm glad by pain is here for all of you. Okay i'm gonna move onto the next part festivus feats of strength so frank. Is you have to test your strength and russell the host of the house that you're at so it says festive as not considered over until the host is pinned to the floor. So i want to know if we had a feats of strength competition between the three of us who would win. And why all right so i will say this right now because alexis has just gone to probably get a refill. But i will say this. Is that alexis kick. That is is pretty substantial. What does the meal kick billy. You know the milk you know the kick that you know. I know it. I'm wondering how you're going to as a mule-kick when you're like on your hands and knees and you're doing the exercise that you like. No no she she is. She is certainly looking forward to having. You explain to people how you know that. I have one of these. In my arsenal. She asked the question mill. You have to explain mule-kick if if it's not what i thought it was in the listeners are the i want. I want saw alexis. I'm sorry i'm sorry. I want saw her kicking meal belly on an audience. I don't appreciate you lying about my love for animals Test test test as you eat wings. So are we. We're just gonna we're gonna is over the mule-kick because nobody's answering my question. Who do we think in a matchup for a feat of strength. Who is winning like a physical. It's a it's a wrestling match like as you have to pin the person down whoever gets pinned down on the floor wins like who's winning. Why billy had the more billy. I'm one hundred percent winning. No doubt my mind. Because there's no doubt like i could take billy billy is becomes like a shell of his real self sometimes. Wow wow okay are at melton. The couch start giggling. I don't mean that. In a mere harry you become like jovial putty man and i could take elective weight and jovial putty man. Yes well. can i take flight. That's like billy superhero exactly. But i know that's what billy that is your superhero superman drank the jovial. Putty man. you can just. You can resist anything. That happens to you because you're so squishy that it kind of like nothing penetrates you. You know and then veal. If you got in a car accident you your body would be so valuable that you live like you would just like this hit against the side of a car like a rag doll. In fact this this was all the case by the says that is literally the first thing that came to my mind but i was trying not to say it because it was way too dark. But that's exactly what i think. Like your body no matter where it flings you. you're just like bouncing. It's like stretch armstrong with like a little bit more like movement is at stretch. Arm rock gumby. Is it a crash dummy. Who's the send it's all three. It's all three astor than a speeding bullet. It's billy putty johnson the jovial putty man. I think if there's any over i that are illustrators. We need billy jensen in his action figure. Like what does the jovial putty man look like. Okay i'm gonna go you can't go. You can't leave us. I mean christmas everybody so yeah okay so abilities money in the strength of the last part i said i said putty billy i win real billion lose. That's hard for me to But like billy standing at attention like ready to go. I can't beat him. he's a gargantuan person. But yeah of your intimidating billy. You just have like the munson. I can win. I have the i of darkness. Yeah when you're billy when you're alexis told me a little bit about when you're filming your tv show. I'm not going to give anything away. But she has told me. A few instances where you have to film something very serious and you have to like you have to stand strong. And say i'm billie johnson and investigative journalists and i'm here to see and she said that you did it with such gumption and she could never do that no phillies really. Good like on for a camera. Yeah because like oh my god. No no condone this twenty five years. You were on camera for twenty five years camera for like one year one year one year. You've done guest spots. This is your first big. Billie johnson thing he you. I've done more than guest spots before. But you know listen shriveling sham. Don't downplay it because i'm not downplaying it now. It's going to be of the best. True crime documentaries ever it will be like we're doing this for justice and like not laugh after yes god because it is for justice and god forbid billy how. I'm sorry but even when i try to take myself the most serious i it's like i could never get to that moment where i was like. Yes and not feel little bit embarrassed or a little bit. Like i'm a little silly. Like billy jensen the. What would the thing that you would. You would toast to though like what would what would be that thing. I don't know why. I don't my line of work is not as serious as your guys so i. I don't have a position or experience that i would have had to be that serious set. You know jackson. Recently the body positivity stuff you're doing is as important like everything's important and depending on how you look at it but like i so admire like your stance on that and what you've done recently. I disagree. I do think that's important. And it's yeah but it's you standard apples and oranges still totally totally totally. I agree. Thank you by the way seriously though you. I've told you this several times that like every that shit helps me like being so insecure your entire life because of what the media's you i only just aren't feeling better about it in my thirties and it's because of you so it's like it's not nothing not i don't think it's nothing either. I just wouldn't. yeah. I wouldn't compare it to like standing on the doorstep of a convicted. Like or something like that. But it's different you'd like your year resident. You're reaching different people than this is reaching and it makes people feel better unanimity. It's just apples and oranges. It's certainly serious and probably way more people suffer from that than like anything else but back to christmas billy. Why don't you tell them what i got for christmas. Oh your seems gifts yes we did. Oh okay good because this sort of makes sense. Yeah so alexis. Got me a very special gift. It was wrapped up. I had to like unwrap. It and unwrap it. And she's like don't really like a mummy like yes ratchet wrapped it and then i finally got to the center of the wrapping and it was a bobble head of me and it's so good it's so good and i kept looking at it going. This really looks a lot like me like really like like there's one thing that dual bobble head of somebody. It's like kinda like this really looked a lot like me. She went so far. Alexis did of having my tattoo of the medicine glass on my my forearm. That was on. There is well it. Just it's kind of perfect. And then the underneath like so on the days of every of every bobblehead. It usually says the person's name or something like that on the base. It says an ellipse dot dot to justice because every time only billy trying to do with cheers or some shit. He's like a toast desks with a straight face and it's like a gang strafing. God forbid this for but like. I just can't be trite like that like i mean it. He means it guys do me. You do mean it. It is very commendable belly of him. He gets really. It's some of the times that he gets the most like. Why do you think. I don't mean that i'm like you can. I'm just always just laughing. This is making fun of you. Because yes i know that. Yeah no it's it's an. It's an amazing gift. And it's on my desk. It's displayed proudly and it really does look like me and i know that you it. Send them a ton of pictures. I know that you work with jack to make sure that like. Why would send them to jacksonville. Like i don't know like no it totally. It looks like it is and there are a couple. Because i looked this up for a potential christmas present as well but there are a bunch of sites there that they literally the craft these clay. I think they are completely custom. It's not like oh newly. Conan look like the personally like it's like they they take front center back of your head pictures. You can have them wearing whatever you want like. It's not anti costume. If a in earing an in your ear they'll make it look exactly like them. Good shit and it's really funny. Literally billy when jack jack text me and i'm not going to give anything away. Don't worry jack texted me. Like what should i do for. Jared and i was like well. Here's what i'm doing. Actually shut the gop bobblehead website. Like like me jacker the same person doing that for billy. That's so funny. 'cause like billy would love to gaze at himself more than anything else and then nothing but like the irony was jack was literally in the middle of doing it too. It was really funny. And then the next day. And i won't say she's like oh my god that was my idea to. I'm like it's like this. Alexis your mean right here singing to each other souls down the gullet of your soul. Yup okay one last thing and then we're going to the last part of episode. We're going to jump into some i these questions. So last part festivus is there are festivus. Miracles where you're calling all slightly non-routine events a festivus miracle. Can you guys think of any festivus miracles. That have happened lately in your life. Just like a very big non-routine non-real like also just like not amazing but it's a festivus miracle. I saw duct today at the hollywood forever. Cemetery that i swear was iridescent like a peacock like it was the most stunning creature i've ever seen. It was like opal in. it was a festivus miracle. Frankly so yes. That is interesting miracle. That's a perfect example of a festive miracle. Billy do you have one. I ordered chicken wings today. And they had a honey glazed on them which is one thing but they had this me so ranch that i thought was sublime was really really talk about any sort of foodie thing ever like i was. It was so good. Do you know what man yes. It's like spicy thing that comes with. What kind of is that. It's from the me so plant off It was it was it was so good and festivus miracle so the interesting thing is my festivus miracle that i was going to talk about. Is i recently got a chicken nuggets from mcdonald's. Every time i go to mcdonalds i ask for honey and just plain honey honey mustard. I want hueneme every single time. I go there and i asked for. Honey honey we put it in there with all the other sauces and go home and they never they give me honey mustard now. This time that i went. I got donny and that my friends is on your side. I mean it truly feels miracle every time they get it so it is a festivus miracle miracle that's not a festivus miracle because it's a real miracle me and jack get to go to new york. We want this. No no no no no. We're going to do this another day. This is beginning of the episode. Okay well then fine. I'll just leave you with that little nugget as a play on. Jack's mcnugget thing. We want elaborate. But i think there is irony that got to go to new york with billy and then i get to go with youtube. So that's all festivals. Yeah new york for something coming up soon. But will i think we i think we. It deserves little chat. You know that's true all right. Well we're gonna drop out there. Were some other time sorry ability. You can't come. We have dropping little seed. Great okay so when we come back. 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Have we talked about this. I can't remember because there's so many questions about it on my post that i made today but have we talked about is die hard christmas movie or not have we had this conversation it is. It's not even a conversation to have billy thanks. It is alexis. Do you think heard christmas movie. I need to watch it again. I can't comment on something. I don't feel strong enough about exactly. Can report back on our new year's episode. But i don't know i just recently watched die hard because we're trying to watch a different chris movie and i've made girard watched so many rom coms over the past couple of days so we watch die hard and i mean i have to say that i do believe it's a christmas movie. There's so many. I mean there's so many christmas references references exactly. It happens over christmas. It would be one thing if you're like in december they're like no this is. It's christmas setting the scene. Jojo i a machine gun out. Yeah yeah it's all christmas okay. So two thirds of say. It's christmas movie. One third tvd. I may be there. But you know what i'll run out. I'll just like. I trust you guys because even the slightest reference to celebratory jack. I love festival gets. It's a christmas movie diehards at christmas. Movie check die hard as christmas movie. Okay do you guys have any specific family traditions. That you do. That are weird or notable or just like what is your favorite thing to do around the holidays with family or just alone or you know whatever. I sure me and my sisters always tried to make our dad cry when he's opening a gift like it's like somebody has to do it there has to be like flaring nostrils 'cause he won't like fall in years he's not the guy he's like a nostril flare holden guy where he's like rhetoric like you know and his nostrils flare in a look away like wipe like pretend nothing happened but like that sort of always in this year. I'm getting making it happen. I'm killing this year as it a sentimental gift. Well actually yes may i shared. We have some time. Go for it first of all. Two things My dad for his sixtieth birthday In in july over the summer he was supposed to scotland and he couldn't because of cogan. And so i did the thing where you buy a plot of land and scotland and you become a lord guys get no war because you own land in scotland. Suddenly you're award. So i bought foot right. What is it about square feet. Because i wanted him to be like baller like the next guy. So i bought them and they're going to plant to trees on his land. Lord lord james's land. So i bought him that and then this is really good. You guys listen up in debbie if you're listening. Debbie is one of our amazing listeners and she also is a huge fan. I we became friends slowly and we started talking. We've had several phone conversations and we text a lot doubles amazing and she and i were texting and she was telling me how her grandfather i think. I'm so sorry if i'm getting strong. Went to high school with my great grandfather. And she was going through some stuff and she found their yearbook from nineteen twenty nine. Holy shit like my grandpa like signed her like vis yearbooks in several places and things like that and it's almost one hundred years old and she was so kind as to send it to me and i was going to give it to him for his birthday but I didn't and i'm going to give it to him for christmas. And i wrote the superspy card. That was like you probably don't know what this is but check on page fifty two ninety two fifty four because it's like all of these cute little notes back and forth from her family member in ours in like his picture of her where it was the most generous amazing moving thing. That's ever happened to me since we started. Podcasts debbie oprah listening. I think about you all the time. It's the nicest thing anyone's ever done that. So i'm gonna win crying thing this year for sure god and also for her to give up that where it's like part of her family history as well. That's very generous of her. It was one of the most beautiful things like somebody who i you know. We feel like we do know each other. Well 'cause we've talked so much of course in in real life we haven't you know and so i'm so grateful in york and You know that's the kind of shit that like everyone's been depressed. And i'm sure that will just make his year. You know so. I'm so mad. switched up. i hope you're listening. That's such a good gift build. Gummy family traditions. Or traditions of your own you know. My father used to have the he had the house. That was the big house the decorated house and everybody would drive past it and that was what our lives were like. After the day after thanksgiving it was. Are we gotta go. Put up the christmas decorations and that what. We did every saturday and sunday up until christmas. So i've tried to keep on that that that tradition to a smaller extent because he loved that even when he got sick to put a sign out that said sorry due to sickness. We don't have. We don't have the lights anymore and then people like wrote letters and things like that so. That's one of the things that that i try to do. Is like at least a do a little bit of something. It's not necessarily over the top. It's not like what you see a lot of different places. But that's what he tried to do. And i just wonder like what he would you know he always loved. Keep up with the joneses so if he if he would have seen the internet and seeing what other people have going on he would have stepped up even more and more. If you're gonna be the best the best on the block exactly yeah. What about you jack. My my family. I mean my family is just me and my parents. we've always kind of just been the three musketeers. Nothing nothing has been like super elaborate or crazy that we've ever done so we actually travel a lot over the holidays just because we can't and it's pretty easy to have experiences and i love you know paying for their vacations over christmas and stuff. It's like a very fulfilling thing that i can do but the one thing that no matter where we are that i make sure that we do. Is we watch christmas story all day. Tbs during love the story. It's the best christmas movie of all time in my leg. Lamp classic it's classic. We just walked past a house that had one of them. And i'm like you know what i love this i love. I love you guys jack. You need one leg lamp. Yeah like when you buy a house like you should have one proudly for the month of december. You should put one in your like front window. Just like a nod. I mean that's so cute. You can like do a whole thing with bb guns polls and tongues and legs like makeover. Chris vibe. I love that just like everything that we can reference a christmas story. Your whole christmas tree could just be themes like a christmas story. It'd be such a key thing to do that. I mean it's such a classic. It's right at the lamb like land now now that you bring it up. The poll that was in christmas story is kind of reminiscent to the aluminum. Paul from festivus. It's the festivus pole. Is i wonder if you can just freeze your festivus polling your own house and then stick your tongue to that one and then you could be doing like a double whammy. That's right sure you try it. Somebody try what their festivus pull while you know. I think we really killed enough time. This was find guys. See why this is why we need a second episode week of time. I think so i love got and i love. I love this whole thing and you is happy holidays. We are so excited for next year. And we're so grateful you listen and we love you all so much. If we could get you each a gift we would for now. Billy's mockery will have to suffice. What was the stupid. What was the name of his action. Figure i can't forget it. Putty jovial putty hardy man. Yes we will one day. We will have jovial putty man action figures available on website. So you just wait. Okay billy do you wanna sign us off with sign off the usually now. I forgot make something up putting. We don't do we don't do it. Yeah no we just do it on killing time with this do the beep. That's it all right. Well beep beep beep. Forty eight for eight minutes. Happy holidays billy. Bet just honeyman man instead palmer. Hi everyone this jillian with court junkie. Court junkie is a true crime. Podcast that covers court cases and criminal trials using audio clips and interviews with people close to the cases court. Chunky is available on apple podcasts. And podcast one dot com. What's your favorite flavor of holiday music. Christmas classics seasonal songs from the hottest artist festive. Heavy metal live by. Has it all in our massive music library. Grab a third day. Free trial of led by plus and you'll get unlimited skips commercial free music. And all of the podcasts live streaming events you can handle visit dot com slash. Podcast one to learn more and start your free trial.

billy seinfeld alexis jack billie jensen bassett hank taylor Mike rodak donna screen billy jensen Dernie keefe Daniel o keefe dan o jeff shaffer Alexis michelle howard ted bundy
Episode 37: Two Sisters and a Psychopath

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Episode 37: Two Sisters and a Psychopath

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. So one of my biggest missions in life is to find the absolute perfect sent for me. And I'm still on that mission. But luckily, with Semper and I found a way to have great taste and mix up my fragrances as I'm trying to figure this out without breaking the Bank and buying all of these giant bottles that I'm never going to use, and whether it's Tom Ford, Gucci urva, Saatchi, tempered dot com keeps me smelling good month after month. So Semper d- is a luxury fragrance subscription service for perfumes and colognes. And it's a way for you to discover new perfumes without buying an entire bottle. They have more than four hundred fifty designer brands free to choose from that's everything from product to Tom Ford to dodging Gabbana, and you can try the brands you want, and it's the real deal, which is amazing. You just choose the perfume, you wanna try, and they'll send you a thirty day supply. That's one hundred twenty sprays enough to apply more than four times daily a month. So if you guys want to check out sent bird go to center dot com slash. I agree and user code first degree for fifty percent off your first month that is seven fifty for your first fragrance is amazing again, separate dot com slash first degree and user code. I agree for fifty percents off your first month. Host degree post degree. Degree. I the first degree. Things you're supposed to have it in movies, not real life. He had married a psychopath. She had married the wrong person. She was almost forced into the marriage because of his manipulation kept me in the dark through a lot of it. She says it was to protect me that I think it was because he knew if I knew about it, I probably would have done something to become fairly on it. It's probably best that they didn't because it's a matter of life, and death. Hey guys, look into the first degree that true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and next. Billy Johnson Alexes drink, and a nice good hot toddy. She's a little sick. So scratchy throat, forgive her heavy breathing today. Yes. I mean you never do but I don't care. Billy is not paying attention because he's on his phone. I am doing some research for our day. Yes. What's what's today? Happy new kids on the block day. Oh, I see. I think I was did you listen to new kids on the block in sank in back through? Yeah. See, I think that we just missed town age Otani dreams liquid dreams. Very interesting song, but we just missed just miss the new kids on the block train. And we're just prime for instinct and Bakshi more one I'm, but they'd have to them at solo careers, Jordan. Right. Oh, and that song, Brian something, it will Brian McKnight, AB know. Yes. But can we have to pay ruins as on that anymore? Yes. Yeah. I couldn't even in my book, I couldn't even do it Bowie lyric. I had a Bowie lyric, and they were just like you. Can't do it really. Yeah. Oh, was it just one line? Yeah. Is it China was aligned for from a from village? Underground waiting for the Mant. First thing you, I think. You always got to wait and they're just like we can't have that, really what you can, quote a book, because it's like a percentage of how much the copyright is, but yes. New kids on the block day. What does the crime related to Nukus on the block? You have Donnie Wahlberg. Donnie Wahlberg is the brother of Mark Wahlberg Mark Wahlberg. Of course, famously with him and his friends, attacked a man with a fishhook. Yes. Yes when he was a kid. Yeah. And he's trying to get that sort of thing his record one of those hand big exactly. I used to think it was a fish hook. Yeah. Really hurt the, the blinded him and one I oh my God. Short. No a friend of mine made out with them. You hotels you like five. No, I think it's like five ten. Onward. So today's case takes us to the yucca valley, yucca is a tree, which is bordered in the west by the San Bernardino. Mountains in the south, by the Joshua tree national park, the valley community is located in the Mojave desert. Okay. So today's I re- connections are two sisters named Becca and Jess, and they were gracious enough to share. They're pretty incredible experience with us today. So today's case revolves, primarily around this very interesting relationship that Becca had with her boyfriend turned husband, named Tyler so here, she is now talking about what he was like in the beginning. And then she'll go on to give us more detail about what that relationship was like. Cheever's just off miles and just plain it. He was just very do so nice. And he was just he's so pull polite. And he listened to me, and he wanted to know all about me what I've been through in my just what kind of food. I liked. And here's just so cool. He was like my best friend in the entire world at that moment, like was. He was everything I'd ever wanted. I mean, the nicer we actually got together, I told him I didn't wanna relationship or anything, and he was just, I woke up the next morning and he's just like so what's up girlfriend, and I'm like, oh, I didn't know ready together, and I had a really hard time saying no to people back in the day. One of those like I was just a very good girl. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but I don't know. I just kind of went with it. I was like, okay, well, whatever he starts coming over all the time, and he of like Davis meeker two weeks and we'd only been together for three weeks. And I was like a little little much, don't you think and I was moving and like a month. So it was. I don't know is really weird, and then after I had moved she kept going over to my house, even though it wasn't there. And he was hanging out with my mother, which was very weird and she's like, oh, look like I'm tired of the family now. And like. It was just. What in such a short period of time, right before I had gotten onto the plane for Alaska, he decided to propose to me and front of a bunch of people. And I just. I'm so dread when he did it and I just started crying because I was just like I just felt SARS passer 'cause there's so many is on me. Now, just like yeah. Sure. Okay. Yeah. Wow. So. Asking her to marry him in front of a bunch of people what, what, what he has that ever happened to you guys. Nobody has asked me to marry them. We'll actually thank God from my past, not because Jerry, right? But no. I mean, I think that's something if you know, somebody's going to say, yes, and, you know, the family and everybody I think if you put on a stranger. You see that a lot at sports games. Right. You know, we're literally thirty thousand and forty thousand people, it's on the Jumbotron. They're looking at you. You gotta hope that if somebody proposes to you at a at a sports game it's like a sports team that you love. And you're not just going to the sports team because you're like my boyfriend loves it. I guess we'll go beer, man. You've already agreed that you're gonna say yes, and picked out your own ring, and they know you're gonna say, yes. The idea of just proposing is odd to me still to this day and do not for the love of God. Ask people's dads that is in growth. Daddy permission. Oh, I think you could ask both parents. I think you'd give a heads up. Like I think askings weird. Yeah. Rabble. Yeah, I, I in quired it about her dowry. Here's it violent or blood the weirdest thing about this whole situation so far is how he just started going over to her house and hanging out with her mom and was like guessing board of the family. Oh, I mean, it's it's kind of it's interesting because I just think there's a lot of dysfunction, and in speeding through a courtship and it took me a long time to come to that conclusion because I've done that I've done it maybe time in a relationship. Right. And it's I think there's some there's a red flag there. It's a massive fraud flag red flag. We're going to get into who this dude is so Tyler, he's pretty allusive. But what we do know is this? His name is Tyler Martin Kobe. Kobe. Oh, probably Cabrillo. Kobe oh. And he was born on April sixteenth nineteen ninety four. He was five ten around one hundred eighty pounds, Brown hair, Hazel eyes, and he was twenty three years old when all of this was happening, and he had actually known Becca since they were kids. And as soon as they started dating obviously, like we were saying things escalated very, very quickly, and now we're going to hear from Becca sister, Jess. I think at that point she wasn't nearly as involved as he was. She pursued her to the point where I notice it made her uncomfortable. And I think at that way, too, you know, she's still growing up in trying to learn how relationship work. So it was hard for her to kinda say, you know, hey man, like this is not a relationship like this is the one time thing. This is not what you think they says, and it was hard for her to say now. And it feel like the more and more key. Push. It was kinda like she felt tracks and tears Becca. He definitely just kinda inserted his bump into my life, and which San love you to me. Like even though we like we've known each other for years, don't get me wrong like we were friends, but it's like I was not romantically like in love with him after two months of being with him. You know what I mean? It was more of just like okay wrong. I liked you a lot like your cool, you know, but then after he started kind of getting weird like he just telling me what I could do and couldn't do. And like one of, like where does things is when he actually came to live with me for the first time he would like kind of dictate what my dog can do. I know that sounds really weird, but he'd be like, oh, your, your dog's not going to kitchen and go on the bed. It can't do this. I was like, what is she supposed to do like, just run around in a circle? And then he looks at you like really turned and I'm like, oh, okay. Like I knew I'd been putting my plate and use this guy, you're not gonna talk to me like that. And I'm kind of make a joke like, oh, why? Because I'm a woman like kind of make like my the situation and he got the whole kit. She started getting more manipulative probably. Moore's Roy's end of our relationship like Brenston when I lived in Texas. We didn't have a lot of money. But there is moments. Where I would go and get groceries, obviously, and one time, I had I bought bread and one of the trip, you know, and I wasn't allowed to eat anything other than that bread. He, he could have whatever he wanted. I had eat that bread. And he wanted me to get fast because he didn't want anyone to look at me. I was only allowed to be seen by him. And he made sure that I put on all the way that I could I gained so much may. I mean. It was bad. I wasn't and then like on top of that, I have fantastic back. Yeah. It's not like I could go walking off or doing thing, like I, I couldn't get their shot of cortisone shots in my feet though. I was just like sitting there like does gaining all this way. I couldn't walk really bad. Here's the communist that b word, and he would not want to, you know, do anything sexual with me. He would make me so like absolute crap about myself. But it's it's just kind of haunting. You know, it kind of sticks with you. One of my favorite things in the entire world, other than learning, you know, everything that I possibly can about. True. Crime is learning how to keep my skin looking as young and as fresh as possible, and one of her new sponsors is helping us out, and we're pretty obsessed with them, and that is higher education, skin-care, so higher education skin-care have products that are specifically formulated for gen Z and millennial females, so that's us in pretty much probably all of our listeners all their products are backed by strong science, and our cruelty free paraffin free, gluten free and dermatologist approved and they have super cute product, names and dope, packaging, which I love some of their products are really cute. Called study, buddy easy, a and make out ready. And we love their cram session, which is a vitamin infused hydrating lotion because it feels like heaven and protects our skin from all of the stuff that all of our products are emitting. With this ingredient called fraction aided melanin. So if you guys want to try him out, and go to higher education, skincare dot com and use promo code first degree at checkout. For twenty percent off your first order again higher. Education, skincare dot com. Unusual code first degree for twenty percent off. So as far as Tyler and becka are concerned they did end up getting married, after all of that, after that, really after that coastal hose. All right. Can't say no listen. It could be interpreted as just like, totally hopeless romantic move. I totally get it. Right. Right. Let's talk about these blinking. Fireworks technicolor red flags that were seeing here. What are you guys saying? Well, I see them because it's not me. Yeah. In my situation, but I've I am a admitted ignore of red flags. Saint so it's one of those things where they slowly reveal the red flags by then you're already repented. We would I've got to cut in here for a second. But what kind of red flags have you guys seen that are even similar to this? No, not, not this, this is different, but I've definitely ignored red flags. I mean I have similar, but I'm going to probably wait to talk about. But. I mean, it's massive manipulation and the but the thing is, it's like she probably didn't realize the look the scale of it while it was happening, right? It's it was something concerts, twenty twenty three when this happened. And I think she was a couple years younger, so a kid and you're still everybody is dating idiots when they're that young. And she got you know, she's got married really young and roped in. It's this thing where she knew him since she was a kid. So you think you know this person. Yeah. And I've been out of that comfortable comfortableness that even though he was saying that he loved her super early, you know, obviously in retrospect, she's like it was kind of weird. And she probably had a gut feeling that it was weird when it was happening, but, you know, it's like you don't give yourself but, like, yeah, it's it probably doesn't seem as weird as plus it does looking back once, you know, you have a guy and you do gain weight, you don't think you deserve. Any better? And that's exactly what they're trying to accomplish right by doing these things just to get alternate control because it's a, it's a possession thing. Absolutely. So it's on this point that Tyler starts dipping his toe on a little bit of illegal activity. We're looking on his record and found theft, misdemeanor charges and a failure to appear in Bullhead city court. Becca sister, Jess. I just I personally for sister started being little red flag. I mean I'm only four years older than her, but that's still four years worth of experience that I've had. And so I did notice red flags just it seems to be that, you know, if he did something wrong, she would be very quick to come to his defense. She would defend him Psomas the point that it was her trying to prove to him that he could have her loyalty, no matter what happens between them in a relationship, and that can he was also very scary because I was like both. What would be the worst thing? He could possibly do that. You could come to his defense for, because it seems like the circumstances started getting worse and worse and worse and worse. It was like an started with stealing and kept me in the dark through a lot of it. She says it was. To protect me, but I think it was because she knew if I knew about it, I probably would have done something to become fairly honest. Obviously, they didn't because it a matter of life and death. And now back to Becca the moment, I realized that I wasn't horrible person after the whole reason I came back from Alaska is because I had to pay rent in cash, and he's had calls my rent money. All my savings, everything every ounce time he took it. And he went onto a plane back to California and left me to where I would be homeless. And I lost my partner and I had to come back to California. My grandma paid for my ticket and I was staying with her, and my friend came over. I'm I'm not gonna give names, but my friend came over, and she is down on my bed, and he's like back, I have this hockey and I was like, okay, she went to kick and c. She did terrorize and the psychic was, like had brought me up without her even asking is that you need to tell your friends, the one with the blonde hair to, to leave the guy, she's with. He's gonna end up shooting her someday. He's not a good guy. And he's like, oh my God. Okay. So because after she told me that and I kind of thought about it eventually come around. And when we met up, we very sitting in a graveyard, and he and I, I contact and I looked at him. And I asked him point blank, I was like, was there pointing time you thought about joining me. And he just started crying. He didn't say no, you didn't. They yet. He's just third crying. And like it was like phone showing this is not okay. Like, what if I Don t tell me he keeps that was? That's crazy talk. You know, he he couldn't say that to me. Here's just crying, dominance, the moment. I realized crying if I asked you, if you have thought about killing me is not a deal. Not, not really the answer that you're looking for. No may. Oh my God. That would never think about that. We're just latte laughter. It'd be better what he talked like. Are you insane laughter? Would be better. Yeah. Not crazy. Joker laughter. But this laughter, yeah. Just a know your joker lavatories, like Batman joker. Some talk. Not good. Not good at this. I keep things interesting. I you know, I always such a skeptic but I hear stories like this every once in a while question myself, it makes you believe it's necessarily believe it makes me question myself. Yeah. Ever. So shortly. Well, I think that if it's like if you have a gut feeling inside of you about somebody, and then it gets validated through a complete stranger that's when I would be like, oh, shut not, not worth like oh, you know, you have this spirit speaking with the name the first letter G, colleague, one of the Hobo. That's, that's the idea that it's like Hager blonde. Friend, the dude, she's married to if she doesn't leave him. He's gonna kill her. Right. It's pretty specific. That's very especially in hindsight. If that's something she learns it's just insane. Right. So it's at this point, obviously, that Becca as she said, realized that her husband is not quote unquote normal. She finally did get the strength to start working towards exiting the relationship. Once she found out that Tyler was cheating on her. Let's hear from just about what she remembers about that situation. Like he would go missing for Dave. And he would leave my sister. Wherever they were living or wherever they're saying that he was just leave her. And. Sometimes he lever for months. Their Easter lack of a better word it was disturbing because it was just like I can't stay her. I can't rescue her, but she'd be completely in the dark. So it was like, you know, being bicker sister, and I wanted to protect her. I'm like, look, he loves the little he'll combat. He's done this before. And in my head, and like this is really act up like what tell I want to tell this guy like pathetically speaking far because that was the one thing she told him if you ever see it on the inside done. And now back tobacco, how I found out about Liz about him being with Liz, I actually went and got my bed, and the, the psychic, just told me that my husband was cheating on me. And I was like, okay this is probably not true. Like whatever. Well, that themed night Tyler and come home, and I called his work, and I was trying to find him confined them. And then. Dr he played our. He ends up calling NATO's behave to come over, and I was like, okay by then come over and he was just like, well, I'm leaving. I'm I I'm done hike. I don't want to be with you, and I was like, okay fine we've done this. Ten times before I'm so done like I don't even care anymore and. I know tacking bags and I went to my best friend at the time and. While he's not her house. I run on Facebook one day and I saw that they together after they blasted everywhere, and I was like, okay, so I wrote him and I said, all right. If you're west her like. Whenever like I done. I was like gone through so much crap, but for my marriage and for you to be with another is, if I'm nothing like so I run to the courthouse, and I start filing or divorce, and then about two days, after I found the divorce I on she's pregnant, and she was due on my sister's birthday dot is probably what hurts them out of those. The fact that she was due on my sister's birthday. But their lives are really intertwined, right? I mean, I understand being young and kind of your married. This person is your world. It's just kind of get out of a situation, and I totally understand that through divorce Hyler one night, Tyler wrote me, and he said he wanted to talk to me. And I said, we have absolutely nothing to talk about life ball tonight. I wanna make you a widow obviously, I got concerned because I don't want someone to kill themselves like a very heart wrenching moment for me. It took me about a week, but he persisted, and he's just like I really need to talk to you. I'm not okay and you just talk to you on, like, okay. I was like what has to be under my terms? I got into the car with him. But I made sure there was cameras around us does anything happen. He couldn't hurt me, and he just started telling me. Just really dark, dark, things about how he felt he wasn't okay? They keep wanted to die. And then he tried to cross a crack a joke saying, well, at least I don't wanna tell anyone anymore. They just wanna come my self like wedding need on challenge anymore. Like I, I just got really nervous and then he ran. Kind of telling me how he regrets ever leading me. He just wanted to make it right. And I'm like trying to explain him that things are never right? And I, I need to be away from him. And he got very upset. And he's a sightseeing. None of this. What happened if it weren't for her you cheated to like start crying? 'cause like I want to he he sent the words, you know, like I just I want to tell her, you know, I don't even want our kid like I just I want them gone. I don't want them. I was just like well, you can't just kill people. That is Gary, like every right now, I'm kinda shaking. There's a very intense moment for me. And I realized that I needed to leave on TV later, I get this phone call from him again, like he's righty. Blowing me out. Seen. Because, you know, you know, when you're ex- kind of get a new person you kinda stock her a little bit. Like I was just looking at her face big and, you know as being dumb girl anyways, stocking her. And I saw I you know, they were like super happiness. There's like so in love him and everything. And I was like, all right. Whatever. And, you know, I, I will hang out with you and I hung out with him. We went to twenty nine palms and we just spent the day talking about lights, and it was really nice moment. Like it was it was like those guys that I had met in the beginning, is this God safety because he has this gun with him, and he showed it to me. He pointed at me. I mean you right now. I'm scaring thinking about it. Like I, I thinking, right. Terrified and his just like I'm just joking. And he put his down his just to it or I was like, no, and he's like he's gonna touch it so pets. And then I, I liked it office, make sure. And I was just like here. Like I am I like handed it over as my, my shirt. He's like I don't want to be touched to gun. So I just got my hair cut and colored and I love how it looks now but, you know, I had that initial dread of how it's gonna look when it starts fading. But the scientists that living proof have found a way to make hair color lasts twice as long and look and feel healthier at the same time. 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By giving you one large pizza pie with five meat toppings, hot and ready every day between four eight PM for only nine bucks. You heard me right county. Topics including pepperoni sausage, bacon, beef and him order yours on our convenient mobile app or simply walk into Little Caesars and pick up your large Hutton, ready, five meat feast for just nine dollars. Tonight participating locations, plus excavated. You make it will be substituted for him. Scenarious. Alexa, isn't the only one with breaking news, make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute. This week on off the vine with Killen, Bristow, Kaelin, welcome sisters, and fellow podcast. One host Billy Madison and Keelan for an episode of silliness and games. Like you've never heard before download new episodes of off the vine with Kaitlyn bristowe and just between us every week on apple podcasts and podcast. One. So she knew to wipe off her prince, that's begun. I feel like it's one of those things that she probably had this gut feeling that like this isn't right? I don't want to touch the gun. He's being so overbearing about being like touch it touch it. Hold it. Hold it. And she's like no. And then when she finally gets, like coerced into finally doing it, she her finger, Pat, because she's just like that is such an odd request. And I think that's the thing it's like your heart has the catch up with your brain. Yeah. Your brain has the logic your heart is kind of emotionally bound, and you're slowly detangling. But it's your gut Chou is no, exactly. But I think in this case, she had seen a true colors infidelity ruined the marriage and suddenly, it was, like, we have this amazing day, and you were the person. I know in love. And I think part of it too, is like now she's a little bit detached from it because they had broken up. He's with the new girl. And then she was almost hanging out with him out of spite. So it wasn't in that completely manipulated. Manipulative invulnerable point that probably wasn't in the beginning. He wasn't under his issue was trolled. Yeah. He was a lot more independent when this was happening. But she was still she chief elt that she was reminiscent. And she felt that style of him. And he was like, yeah. But then, you know then it gets weird. It gets weird and forgotten like touch it touch it. And she, you know, maybe she watched a lot of true crime shows or whatever or just not even true. Crime shows us movies. It was like, I yeah. Okay. Fine. I'll touch it. But then he wipes off her back with their good for her. His dammit. You go girl back you go girl. I don't know what the hell is this thinking threat. I hung out with him. One more time. The next time I haven't with him was because Liz is wearing my shirt and put it on Facebook and it, pissed me off. And I need I needed to stop looking at her freaking Facebook, but it has to be the only way you're going to get your shirt back is if you come and pick me up, and I was like, you know what it's done deal like I'm, I'm down. And so I went and I picked him up and this star, I I'm, I'm shaking. They went and I picked him up, but he wasn't alone. He had a friend and they had his Dame big bag. You know, I kinda like that read over me. I never asked questions about what was in the bag. The I knew there was a gun in there. I knew it was a shotgun. And 'cause I to the end of the barrel coming out in the bag, I talked to friend off as freaking out when I was cave. I'll see you guys later. I just wanted my shirt, you know, how there's like, no, no, no. We're gonna go dry. He's like, well, you know, why don't we get a hotel and I was like, oh, because I really don't wanna and he's like, well, we have a lot to talk about. And he started like comes to move talking. You know, like being really nice to new stuff and kinda got me out of me, nerve may rent and got a hotel and that night, he had the handgun Seattle laying there probably just to keep me in my place. That's the night. He started telling me that he wasn't. Okay. And he didn't know how to control it. He's telling me that he was saying. Greg, very hard, about hurting people. He told me how he wanted to hurt leg and how he wanted to kill her. He told me how he wanted to do it, and where he wanted to do it and. It was just. Bone selling told me about he wanted to take her up to my favorite spot, and Idyllwild and behead her, he's like, because she hurt you because of what she did her marriage because what she did. And I was like tie you both did this. You. I'm better. You guys have a kid you like you shouldn't even be here with me should be raising the baby. I never really took him seriously. And I don't know. Why didn't? But at the same time it did taken seriously expense. I knew he, he was probably capable of something like this. I mean, I knew how he treated me. He was so cruel to me for him to stay out about summoned for me, fear, I was just, like I don't know what to do it. I couldn't take him seriously enough to go to the police, but I couldn't just sit there and do nothing. So I knew I had I like me staying with him was like, not very moment was only thing I knew to do when he has out about Liz, like it preceded the hell out, like I kinda wanted to get in contact with her and just like girl like watch out that she was she's never contacted me back over like I tried writing her, you know, just something to get her to talk to me. But it just never never worked. So beca was smart. Not want to be attached to Tyler guns, because on may twenty ninth twenty seventeen San Bernardino sheriff's deputies were called to yucca valley restaurant after they received word that an employee. There had been shot during robbery. The suspects were too light skinned Hispanic men, wearing hoods covering their faces. And apparently the two men had entered the Castaneda's restaurant in the fifty six five hundred block of twenty nine palms how highway or on four thirty AM and the suspects pointed a handgun at the employees demanded money from the registers and demanded money from the employee's wallet as well. What are these men was armed with a small handgun? And the other guys looked like they had a shotgun a rifle. They demanded money from the registers the employee's the hands over the cash, and then they even emptied his own wallet. When the so they're demanding that as well. So after giving the money one of the robbers opens fire and hits the worker in the head and after he after the victim was on the ground. The gunman fires. Again, this time he actually misses the victim, but both robbers, they run out of the restaurant and sheriff's deputies bringing a dog to track suspects. The man was taken to the desert regional medical center. And thankfully police reported that his wound was in non life threatening. And he recovered. So it was actually around this time that Tyler was working at a place called Castenada as which was a Mexican food restaurant. So if you're wondering who's responsible for this robbery attempted murder you guess it, it is Tyler. All right. Let's hear from Jess on what she remembers about that half. Anita had been shot up. And I was like, Kat is not where he works. She's like, yeah. She's like, Jesse. It was Tyler it was Tyler and I'm like, what are, you know, right? There's no way that she's like, yeah. He went in there. Tried to rob the place. And he's talked one of the people there, worked back caffeine in it. And I was like she shot. I thought was what are you talking about? She's like, yeah, he's talking like he tried to kill him. But, you know the guy who's injured she's in the hospital. He may or may not come out of it. We don't know. Luckily dot net came out of it. And he is alive. And well, I don't think that was Tyler intention. I think the intention was to go in there. Rob the face kill the person and get out. I don't know with with him. I don't know the person that was with him, but I know there were people there, and I'm assuming it may have been somebody he was very close to the I don't know. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. So hearing about that was, like, okay. You know what he's capable of that back guy like. You really need to their way from him. Because now there's nothing stopping that guy from finding you and doing something that. So our podcast, obviously talks about some kind of dark subjects, but when it comes to something as important as your family's safety, you need real protection with ADT, one of our, awesome sponsors. So real protection means not having to be your own twenty four seven monitoring expert because ADT has best in class monitoring professionals there for you at times, and you need it, the absolute most real protection means having a safe and smart home costs and fits your lifestyle with everything from video doorbells. Surveillance cameras that stream to your phone smart locks and lights and carbon monoxide and smoke detectors. Real protection means helping you keep safe on the go in the car. When your kids are at school with their ADT go up and SOS button, no matter how you define safety for you, your family, or your business ADT is there for you. ADT is real protection, so go, visit ATT dot com slash podcast. To learn more about how ADT can design. Sign an install a secure smart home just for you. So what we're seeing here is Tyler escalating in terms of breaking the law, and with his violence. And what's especially disturbing is the employees, complied and gave him the money. And he was still shot like he wasn't fighting back. He wasn't trying to, you know, do anything to head shot in the head. You like that was shoot to kill. You're not shooting someone in the head to injure them. So on Sunday, August sixth two thousand seventeen at nine ten in the morning Bronco bass in deputies responded to the area of skyline ranch road in pioneer town road for the report of a deceased subject, located in a vehicle. And here's beca. I've got a phone call from my ex best friend, and she was like, hey, I need to talk to you right now. And she just pulled me dot piler. Was in wasn't custody for murder and I mean, I started throwing up because his things I need that I got and. Is this a really hard moment because? I mean, I didn't know who it was like, okay so let's hear from Jess on this on. I don't know the time line stain the tumors or I'm not committed. But the murder and the robber, I don't know. But I do know that. He was kind of geared nothing, getting ready. And starting to think about helping I get myself out of this situation already run my life into the ground. And I think part of him was trying to, like, get my sister back, but in the most distorted way it was almost like what can I do to get into forgive me for sheeting on you? They do you want me to kill her. Do you want me to kill unfortunately, the baby like what do you want to do? My sister's like nothing visor to kill somebody like that. That was okay. And then. I started hanging out was when she found out about the murder because there were things that had happened when they spent time together that will show you this was premeditated situation. And when deputies arrived, they found sixty three year old Charles Richard Brown, deceased stuffed inside of a sleeping bag and inside of his red Nissan deputies located signs of foul play at the scene. So if you're wondering who Charles is he's actually, Liz is stepfather, and remember, Liz is the woman that Tyler ended up having a child with. Later on. It was Charles because his, his dad and his girlfriend called me. Well, they wrote me on Facebook, and they, they gave me all the details days. Hold me. They're just like, oh law. He had murdered this, that died and apparently was of the money. And, you know, the story doesn't really add up. But you know it's just Tyler, this is what Tyler dies and then they stopped that he was gonna get. Here's Lon years. In prison and. Doc payments. All they really told me me I'm like, I don't want anything to do with this human, like everything. He's done to everyone around me to myself like to his childlike man, you know, that he'd murdered type it breaks my heart. My heart is broken for Liz, and for her. Little brother like that was his father and her mother died from cancer. So it's like now her little brother, has no parent because of time Tyler murdered his dad's and it's just like my heart breaks for. Little brother. They convincingly. So the same the sheriff's department announced the arrest of Tyler Martin Capalle of Yuka valley, for the home side of Charles Brown. Adding that they believe that Tyler killed him, quote for monetary reasons. So the police at that time added that there was a warrant out for his arrest in Riverside County at the time of his arrest and that warrant was for when he was charged with carrying a concealed Dirk or dagger, which is a misdemeanor. But still he had a court appearance and he failed to appear. So a bench warrant was issued and in the initial reporting may also did mention not the detectives did say, listen, this is the suspect we believe he's dating Charles stepdaughter. But they made a point to mention that they did not believe the stepdaughter was involved in this murder. Right. And we found Charles Pichu Ari and learned that Charles Rick Brown served in the US air force for six years, making stuff sergeant. And he also worked for the show factory, the Annenberg theater and the rock garden over many years. He was a member of Saint Mary of the valley church, and he is survived by ten year old son Ricardo Rafael Brown Mandeville, his brother Joseph around junior and his wife told me and his stepdaughter, obviously, Liz. Right. And as he mentioned Brown's body was found. Near skyline ranch and pioneer town roads just a couple miles outside of the of yucca valley. Right near the popular pappy inherits restaurant and bar, and I bring this up again because this area actually has significance in now back to back up. I didn't even tell you the creepiest part of it. All I forgot to tell you this is bone wrenching. When I found out where Heather has put Charles body in his car, he drove the car to because the night heaven, I hanging out and yucca valley. He was describing around, and he parked his car up this random street, and we found it together and it was beautiful. It was completely pitch black, and there was this stars all doll in the sky. Right. And. We found this five and he leaves his car and gets into my car, you know, so driving around. But when we come back, he looks to me, and he's like this is a really good spot. And I'm like, yeah you can feel them stars. And he's like, yeah. Something like that. And I was like, okay. When book. Where he had Charles body. That's exact same spot. He took me that's the spot. We found religion you have two stars. I started bawling when I found that out when I figured out and put tune to together. Every car comes with its share of stories that digging in your bumper when you nervously picked up a first date or the luxury package, you got after huge promotion or the mileage that you save while riding your bike all summer. And while you can't put a price tag on her stories now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade it in just go to truecar simply enter your license plate number, and watch how your car's details pop up, then you answer a few questions like if you have navigation and moon roof watches, they bump up your value. If you have Highland, high mileage, you already knew that was going to cost you. But now you know exactly how much danger while it. So you can plan ahead and once you're finished, you'll get a true cash offer Centene minutes, which you can take to a local certified dealer to cow or trade in. So when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car. Check out truecar today and shoe car cash offer is not available in all areas. So Tyler was arraigned at Joshua tree criminal court ended up pleading guilty received sixty years in prison for the murder of his girlfriend. Stepdad. So I think we can all agree that Becca came really close to being in the middle being the eye of this violent. Kind of snowball shit storm that ended up in home Nateing with Tyler, I mean, absolute many different times in like, you know, even she's telling us for story. There are these moments. So if you just snapped. He could've killed you here. He could have killed you here. He'll be here like she is the kind of thing I can get from her is just based on what you said about laughing when she's nervous it's like I can tell that she can diffuse the situation. You know, she's not this kind of reacted like napalm for a flame. You know she knows how to calm him down. Yeah, I felt lucky in the sense where no one in my family, and none of my friends, wherever her fine him physically. I'm lucky in the sense. Brian made it out alive to another is a lot of moments where he thought about hurting people, especially knee like he went. He took all his anger out onto me. I feel lucky that I got out, I'm lucky that I have my family, and I can hold every single one of them if I want to, you know, I'm lucky that I got to meet the love of my life like, I'm with a great guy. Now, I would have never have had that if it's tied to murdered me, I'm sure he thought about it like multiple times, you know, but. I mean, if you had a follow through, like I would not be talking to you, I would it would be entirely different story. I am I didn't incredibly lucky I'm blessed. Like I really saw. God is watching over me. Then tired time they I'm so happy. He's gone loft that because not just getting hurt me. He can't hurt anyone else. You mean anyone who to live was just like an innocent bystander in a sense, like, yeah. She, she slept with a married, man. She got pregnant like I get it. She is infatuated but ever like I'm not saying it's okay, what she did obviously, it wasn't not. Okay. But she should never have had Charles taken from her, like he has hurt so many innocent people like his daughter, and little brother. It's like those two like those I have so much heart for those two. And it's just like I just I'm really happy can't hurt them anymore. And now beca sister, just again, she had married. A set of half, she had married the wrong person and he was almost forced into the marriage because of his manipulations, I wasn't shocking that he was capable of that. I was just shocked that it was my sister's husband, I was like, I can't believe. You were married to someone that people that. Because it's like you go through dating and you go through life and. Yeah date. Like they'll patch, you eat manipulators. You people are. Really, really MAC that. But you never think that you're going to be married to the one person that is going to take the life out of somebody else's. Family, give installs everything. Like, when you tell somebody, you don't just kill the person you kill the family, like, there's so many more pieces to that. So I, I was also. Fad for Elizabeth. I was tied for the tuition and sad that another life had come to an end over something. So trivial. All right. So. I agree. I mean, I think Tyler is a psychopath and what's confusing about psychopaths is that some of them aren't violent, but some of them are Tyler Tyler news. Right. And we've all experienced one in our lives, but they don't all turn violent, but I think it's fascinating because we all they have these characteristics that really charm you in rope. You in and they have this ability to make their behavior palatable to you. Yeah. Where you're like, oh you make excuses for them. Oh, they need me. They need help. I don't want to leave them in their time of their heater tugging stress. He's broken. He needs me like this is the kind of dude, this guy. It's. As much as he never want me. He wanted me and I don't know why it was like that. Like he didn't love me. He wasn't in love with me. He just wanted his us in over me. And it was just like. I knew that he was capable of printing people because he had hurt me. He he was so Zine to me. He was crew like. It was absolutely horrible. Okay. So let's hear from Jess on miss Hyler had a census fear of a life and to my sister. Like if you look at that person the wrong way, if you have that person, you know, you're going to pay for it for things like that. And that is never like I said before that is not who she is. She's like a huge social butterfly. Current. I've always been like that. Like she can talk to anybody and not having and she just loves people, and she loves life and she's understanding passionate piece it. But who she was with him like I was looking at him, and he like a third them? And he could look at her in, like just a stern way, and she would go down, and look at the ground has it was almost like a part of her die in a very like morbid sign, because he made her believe that without him, she had accidentally nobody he tried to drive a huge wedge between my sister, and I and that was a huge problem to doctor the matter if he killed somebody out. And I started thinking about all the red flags. And I then started thinking. That could have been back. God, Mr. really been looking over her in our family, because there was something that she was able to do to keep him from doing something like that to her. Antar family. Psychopaths are all textbook like they all have this same type of manipulative, qualities that you've seen a lot of these red flags from, especially earlier, in her story where he charmed her in the beginning, he was telling you left or right away. He was getting her to be vulnerable with him. And then ends up using these really wonderful qualities that humans have against you. And like you said, not every sack about turns violent also a lot of times that people have interacted with one in their lives. They don't even realize that they are a psychopathic rice thinks that they're being shitty person or whatever, but there's a way larger conversation to be had about this. The idea that he was. How do you measure a guy unlisted a guy and I always remember a story about my, my sister having a job at ROY Rogers? As a hostess and ROY Rogers had a hostess, which is ridiculous. If you guys teachers. No, it's not even like it's like an Orbis. Oh, yeah. Fast food. Yeah. And she went with a guy like the first week she worked there in the guy said he loved her. And I always remember that. Like my dad telling me that just like. Yeah. That guy was a little bit off because I said that, and when I think about I always think about that, when I think about, like these types of stories, you know, she didn't go out with him. She had a great guy, but whatever, but, you know, it was a potential red flag. I think that was more of a guy that was young and potentially didn't know what was going on. But this guy. You know, he was, obviously, you know, the whole thing with the bread and wanting her to get fat. So nobody would look at her. Was that? A have you ever encountered any of that before? No playful jealousy. Never. I think so. It's bad. I mean that's yeah. You're controlling what somebody, I'd had a boyfriend when I was nineteen not let me shave my legs before I was going out. But did he like that was like a fetish, she'd note was because he's like, why are you saving your less? Oh like going on anyone? Okay. You know what it was super weird that weird. I was really upset about it. But, like I didn't that relationship didn't last. But I think that was like that on a smaller scale that's controlling for sure. It was very weird. Yeah. I still it's really the only thing that sticks out in my mind as something like that. Was that same guy? I tried to wear like a matching Pani Bron Pani set out, and he wasn't coming. And he was like, why are you wearing that? I was like that. Donald sounds more, so, like he's very insecure and crow rather than controlling. Is it is? But it's not the same thing, though. I mean if somebody's doing it the for the specific like to control you out of like, manipulate a manipulative way, I think is different than trying to control you 'cause they're because they're jealous and insecure brain was doing. I think they all have the same source. It's rooted insecurity. But like, I don't know. I know some psychopaths are so calculated that he's like, I'm going to make your fat. She'll be reliant on me. She'll this most of them are. There's a spectrum bright. So I think that is interesting. It's like we don't know what his weird in brain was doing. We don't know what my ex-boyfriends weird brain was doing. You know, it's a very fascinating topic. So something worth mentioning that we thought was absolutely insane is when I told Becca when this episode was going to be airing which is April twenty fourth. She was. Shocked because she told me that April twenty four is was her in Tyler's wedding anniversary. So it really you know, not only are we all one degree away from our own thing that may be considered dark, or, or whatever you wanna call it, but strange things seem to coincide. And we were all joking around saying that it was kind of like poetic Justice, like she's telling her story, and the irony of it falling on the stay was just something we could not get over. I mean, there's no to psychopaths that are alike, but all their traits are alike. Right. So if you guys have a story that you are one degree away from please write us on Instagram at the first degree at Alexis linkletter Billie Johnson at Jack panic or you can, right? Into our Email Monica at your four hundred Jared, what if somebody wrote the first degree store to you? You're just forwarded over, and we're going to Jared soon. Oh my gosh. We have been waiting to do Jarrett's. But the police documents for Mesa PD are taking so long. You guys though you have no idea how good this is because we're almost ready to do it. Like I've got, like ten pages of notes, but like a need need the audio and I need the document any of the final puzzle piece. So as soon as we get them Jared, you are on the spot chopping block. You relive your childhood trauma, right? God, that's literally like a good anyways. All right. That's it by by by my nine. Are you gonna say happy new kids on the Buckeye, be new kid day, two kids on the block that could be scalded license? Universal Orlando resort plunges you into unimaginable realms of horror at the world's premier Halloween event Halloween horror nights, select nights, September sixth through November second on a vent nights at Universal Studios, Florida when the sun goes down the mutants and the monsters rise up filling the theme park with the sounds of endless screams from cinematic classics in current Colt favorites to the park's original bomb nations every year. Universal Orlando brings the work of the greatest names in horror to life, exploring credibly, detailed haunted, houses, each theme, two different horror icons this year, including an all new house that takes you into the world of net. Flicks is stranger things two and three you'll make your way through. Darkened scares Jones with ghoulish creature's around every turn, you'll enjoy outrageous, live entertainment, and you can experience the thrills and excitement of many of Universal Studios in most popular rides and attractions. Face your deepest fears. In step inside, your worst nightmares Halloween horror nights select nights September six through November second. For more information visit Halloween horror nights dot com. Trump and trade. I'm Tim Maguire, the AP newsman is the Trump administration was draws terrorists and steel aluminum from Canada Mexico, both countries say, they'll lift retaliatory tariffs on US goods clearing a hurdle for a new trade agreement between the three nations. President Trump says the end of the terrace is good for all three countries been charging us extremely high tariffs as much as two hundred eighty five percent or more for our agricultural products. The Missouri house passes a ban on abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy. Governor Mike Parsons, I've been pretty clear where I've been from day, one on right to live several other states have also passed so called fetal heartbeat laws. Today's action follows Alabama's passage of a Bill making performing an abortion of felony in nearly all cases Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has defied a subpoena from House Ways and means committee, chairman. Demanding six years of President Trump's tax returns committee, chairman Richard Neal says they're likely to go to court next week. I'm Tim Maguire.

Tyler Tyler Jess Becca Liz Facebook yucca valley Brian McKnight apple Donnie Wahlberg San Bernardino Alaska Nukus murder ADT Tom Ford ROY Rogers Tyler Martin Kobe Semper Charles
Malcolm Burrows, Pt. 2

The First Degree

41:50 min | 8 months ago

Malcolm Burrows, Pt. 2

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on apple. Podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast. So the literal only good thing that has happened. This year is so many people have adopted dogs which means the shelters are being cleared out which is amazing. But you might not know that much about your new best friend. But that's why you gotta check out. Embarks breed and healthcare so from breed traits to genetic risk factors for health conditions. Embark provides the resources to help you. And your best healer care for your dog. Specific needs so it was developed by. Phd's veterinarians and embarked provides the most accurate and comprehensive breed identification and genetic health results and can identify over three hundred and fifty breeds types and varieties and screen for over one hundred and ninety genetic conditions to help your that provide the best medical care for your dog. You can even learn your dogs ancestry back to their great grandparents and match with your dogs relatives. It's so cute so right now. Embark has an exclusive offer on their breeden health kit for our listeners. This holiday season go to embark that dot com right now to get the best deal the year and free shipping use promo code first degree to save sixty four dollars off your embark breeden. Health kit visit embark fat dot com and use promo code. I agree to save sixty four dollars. Today i agree. I agree i agree. I the first degree movies. Not no they are. Well not ever going to admit that. They've made a mistake foods. Some evidence came to light at one below this whole thing out. Water welcomed the first degree. The true crime podcast. You might end up on my name. Is jack panic. I'm sitting far away from alexis. Linkletter and billie jensen now. Today as part two of malcolm burrows listened to part one. You need to go back. Listen to last week's episode or you're gonna have no idea what we're talking about so we're going to keep this interest super super short because we want to jump right back into the story but first we have to know what day is it billy. Today is december sixteenth. Which is national chocolate covered anything day. That's a very exciting day for everyone. Have you ever had chocolate covered. Grasshoppers no have you. I have yeah all right well. That's enough of that. So let's turn down the lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be you two thousand seventeen tennessee's knocks news. Wrote adam klimer seal clocked out of work borrowed his mother's car and headed to the mountain for a weekend. Four wheeling with friends. He took about a forty five minute break in between to lure an old man from home in the dark beat him to death by the roadside steal his wallet and try to silence witness. He made it to his next stop in time for a late supper. The cited motive for his killing as robbery proven by the fact that the victims wallet was missing from the scene. This is the argument that convinced. Grundy county jury send adam brazil than twenty four to prison for life for the killing of six year. Old malcolm burrows there was no forensic evidence tying adam to the crime and all the case hinged on was eyewitness testimony watching the saga unfolds from the sidelines karen our first degree. Who still have with us today. Karen had known malcolm burrows for most of her life and she was friends with and on the same team. As adema brazil's sister in high school after becoming a journalist karen also covered the two thousand seven. Trial of adam brussel resulted in a guilty verdict when adam shipped off to prison. His story didn't end in fact years after he began his sentence when things in his case really started heating up by two thousand and eleven of serve a little more than four years in prison and he consistently maintained his innocence outta match the physical description of the attacker that surviving victims becky hill and her son kirk had described police and he also had that gold car and to top it off. Adam had a white baseball cap in the vehicle. Just like the one seen on the assailant. So with the presence of so many alignments how could adam brassfield not be the right person behind bars. The family of malcolm burrows and becky hill believed that justice had been served. That adam was exactly where he belonged as punishment for taking malcolm away from them. I think that because becky incur had gene adam that they were satisfied with the right person was in jail and they. They went about their lives. Tragically john burroughs. Malcolm's brother signed a few years later and a car accident. Vaki also passed away a few years later. The family just continued to be marred by tragedy. After this happened. I think the general public also at least for a time believes the right person have been convicted and tarnished to move on. However anna brazil's family was certain that an incredible miscarriage of justice had occurred and they did everything they could to support from behind bars. Well it was in prison. He really did try to make the most of his time. Even though he claimed he didn't belong there he worked in the prison garden and he took part in the prison ministry did everything he could to stay connected to his life on the outside including calling home every night adam and his sister christina were particularly close and christina refused to give up on adams innocence and helped to lead a social media campaign in an effort to draw as much attention to her brother's cases possible surely if they made enough noise someone would eventually listen right at 'em as many people will do whether or not they're innocent. He just continued to protest his innocence and his sister. Kristen would not saw fighting for him. She just continued to fight. She wrote letters. She started campaign on social media in two thousand eleven adams. Defense attorney filed an appeal on his behalf and this appeal was based on several things including insufficient evidence to convict as well as the problems with the photo lineup. That was used when becky hill in her son kirk positively identified as the person who killed malcolm citing that it was unduly suggestive. There'll be more on this later but for now all you need to know. Is that to the dismay of his family. The supreme court ultimately denied adams appeal. There's no denying that the cogs of our justice system move at a snail's pace select easier to be convicted of a crime. You didn't commit than it is to be exonerated when you're actually innocent in there wasn't a second appeal filed on atoms behalf until two thousand fifteen which is four years later in the basis of the second appeal attempt hinged on ineffective assistance of counsel adams then attorney argued among other things that atoms attorney during the trial should have filed a motion to suppress the photo lineup in adams case to put it simply the claim here was at adams. Original council should have challenged the eyewitness. Id and they didn't and remember. All they had was the eyewitness id to convict which they ultimately did so following this appeal hearing the family was cautiously optimistic and when the judge's ruling came back they were overjoyed to learn that adams appeal was granted. Judge angel ruled that the jury relied on inconsistent eye witness accounts of becky hill and kirk brandon to convict remember. Becky was the second victim who survived her attack. And kirk was her son who intervened and saved her on top of that. The judge determined that the forensic evidence that was collected did not actually match becky and kirk stories judge angel throughout the guilty verdict on christmas day of two thousand fifteen in order that atom brazil get a new trial so then after nine years adam walked out of prison as a freeman. The news of atoms released caused quite the storm the community understandably family and friends of malcolm burrows were horrified but those who supported atom. We're stoked they'd been trying to make this happen for years and finally progress is being made however a pack to freedom for autumn was far from guaranteed and would be an uphill battle and this is because the court would eventually totally reverse and remand the judgment of the post conviction court which meant that. All of them. Brazil's convictions were reinstated. So in layman's terms. This means that ten months after autumn's release the tennessee state court of criminal appeals reversed the decision and sent out right back to prison and by this point more and more members of the public were beginning to come around to the possibility that maybe just maybe there was something fishy about atoms conviction however what people bumped on primarily was the whole red hair gold car thing. People really struggled with this. There are simply too many things pointing to adam. As being the person the becky and kirk had seen the night of the crime. The district attorney's office appealed and animals sent back to prison. No they are jam. Well not ever going to admit that they've made a mistake to some evidence came to light. That went below this whole thing right as water. Karen isn't wrong because what would soon come to light about. How the original case against adam will anger sadden and terrify you after all if this could happen to atom this can happen to anyone. We always say this it could be. You came to light that the long officer brown has testified at trial was a mike brown and a roy. Brown twenty brown had testified in court that he had major report at crimes. Me okay. So let's clarify. What karen is saying here. Remember when we walked you. Through the night of malcolm's murder unfolded in part one so when the police initially went to the crime scene at malcolm's house an officer named mike brown reported to the scene so he was also the one who discovered malcolm his body shortly down the road from where his sister. Becky had been attacked in his home. So now let's shift the focus. To adam brazil's thousand and seven trial a wise assumption would be that this responding officer mike brown would have been an important testifying witness after all he was the first on the scene he discovered the body he took photos wrote reports and catalogued evidence. But you'll be surprised to hear that. Mike brown was not called to the stand at all. In fact mike brown was not even notified. The atoms trial was taking place. Because at this point. Mike brown was working for a different police jurisdiction all together. But there wasn't sir brown that was called to the stand to testify in the original trial in officer troy brown. This is interesting when news of atoms appeal battles hit the news officer. Mike brown had learned of what had become of adam and he was perplexed about not being summoned to testify in the trial but when he learned that officer troy brown was called to testify in his place. He was shocked in fact everyone was. How did this happen. Was this oversight or deliberate. Move by the prosecution to prevent mike brown from testifying. But why okay to answer this. Let's rewind for a second back to the original trial in two thousand. Seven through is november of two thousand and seven in grundy county courtroom. In one of the state's first witnesses was called to the stand. Sergeant troy brown sergeant brown took the stand and the prosecution asked him how much he knew about the malcolm burrows murder sergeant brown looked confused and responded a little who was only on the stand for a few moments. The next person take the stand was deputy andy west. His testimony was much more lengthy and included several references to sergeant brown in terms of his role within the malcolm burrows investigation deputy west gave hearsay testimony about what was alleged happened the night of the murder. He talked about following sergeant brown from burroughs house to the scene deputy west stated that he got out of the car and saw brown find the body on the stand. He was saying things. Like i waited for sergeant brown and i saw jim brown find the body. So i'm sure people were confused about why sergeant brown himself who had taken a stand minutes prior said he only knew a little about the case. If this officer was speaking sergeant brown handle the case on his own from top to bottom so here is maybe where you can piece together. What's gone wrong here. They were talking to. And about the wrong sergeant. Brown troy brown was not at the scene on the night of the malcolm burrows homicide and you know again people there must have thought. This was very weird. That sergeant brown on the standard troy brown was denying knowing anything about this case. Because why would the officer who responded to the scene not known anything about the case and who would think that the wrong officer brown would be called to the stand because it seems like an impossible mistake to make and of course that's true but the thing is more than likely this wasn't a mistake and if your call from our first episode on this story. The responding officer to the scene of the crime was mike brown. So either a mix up or a deliberate sort of Bayton switch here. Who's to say. I guess we'll see how it plays out. Even more disturbing about this whole thing is that this oversight had not even been identified during adams appeals process for example. Here's an excerpt from adam's. Two thousand ten appealed. Denial three judges. Who weighed in on. Adam brazil's appeal. Who presided over. Tennessee's highest criminal court of appeals wrote the following when they rejected adams plea for a new trial. Quote sergeant troy brown with the franklin county sheriff's department later spotted the body of mr burrows lying face down in the woods approximately six to eight feet from the chrysler so even the judges are citing and referencing. Try brown law. Wrong officer in their rulings. Maybe this is because these judges made the assumption that the officer who testified in the original trial troy brown was in fact the investigating officer and this very much should have been the case. But it wasn't and somehow this agreed. Error slip through the cracks on every level. So this is really really bad. Clearly the prosecution calling the wrong officer. Brown to testify is disastrous. it's a travesty for atom. And now you're probably thinking that the botching of adams case couldn't possibly get worse but does by now. Mike brown he's talking and being public about the recent revelations that he's made and soon he picked up on the other suspicious aspects of the case against adam and these revelations would be shocking and apparently officer. My friend has seen something on social media or on adam page and he contacted the family and said that is utter bullshit. I person- who actually discovered falcons naughty. And i am the person who made him of court. And i've just learned if they prosecuted you for fast of knocking love of it. And i am telling you that. I wound that wallet on his person and turned it over to the sheriff's office. So only does there goes ing motive for the entire crying but and not only as. They're a huge brady violation because they withheld exculpatory evidence. That gross prosecutorial misconduct. If you recall. The prosecution determined that adam receives motive for murdering malcolm burrows was robbery because remember malcolm burrows wallet was missing from the scene and not on his person but officer. Mike brown was saying that this story was impossible in this is because because when he himself the real officer brown had discovered the scene of malcolm's body he picked up malcolm's wallet to look inside for identification. In fact officer. Mike brown had collected it photographs wallet and turned it in as evidence so clearly. It doesn't take a detective to figure out what's happened here. Obviously the accidental mixup between calling off. Sir troy brown to testify on the stand instead of officer. Mike brown doesn't seem as if it was an accident at all. And now we know why the prosecution couldn't have the real officer brown testify otherwise would blow the state's case by being truthful about the investigative steps. He took in terms of this wallet. The steetch robbery motive was blown clearly. No robbery place if a wallet. Filled with cash was left on the murder victim. So what the heck happened here. Where did the wallet go. Who's in charge of the mishandling and tarnishing of this case. But even more important. If adam didn't kill malcolm burrows who did express you this holiday with the best styles and gifts from express checkout express this season with the latest cozy casual styles for you and everyone on your gift list. Now we're getting closer and closer to the holiday season and if you're like me and you procrastinate with your gifts you express will always have something for everybody love because they're the best place for cozy close now. I'm gonna talk about jeans. And i know you don't think about jeans you anything about cozy close. But they're super soft. Jeans are made with extra stretch and super soft fabric. So they're literally as comfy as your favorite sweats through literally jared's favorite jeans. 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It is so fine so download the app today and shop and sell your favorite luxury brands and get twenty percent off select items with code real plus new shoppers at twenty five dollars after i purchase available in the app store or google play. Get the real up to date by this point. Our story officer brown. The real officer brown has been made painfully aware that the wrong person testified on his behalf. During autumn brazil's original murder trial in two thousand seven the revelations presented by mike brown were explosive and they called into question. The integrity of adam brazil's trial not to mention the lack of forensic evidence and now questionable eyewitness testimony so brown claimed that he collected took photos of andro observations about the scene and evidence in a police report but there is no such evidence in the case file that these reports ever existed. There was no trace of the wall. Either not the wallet itself or the documentation of it and if that was the case said mike brown then he believed that the key records were mistaken or doctored. Add she officers involved. In this case. I had the same last name. It was really easy for them to bring in one officer testify in another place especially when that went off and i had already moved on to another jurisdiction and it wasn't that hard to say. Well he's moved on. He doesn't really care about this anymore. Anyway we'll just bring the other off some proud to testify at his place. And while i'm doing that and you know we can have him say whatever we need having say to make this case set. There were tons of coincidences in this case. Yes tons of coincidences. Which is the reason. The public didn't think twice about what was happening in court and why no one questioned the integrity of the investigation on one hand is really easy to say why they look at adam as stuff that it. It still is really immoral and unjust then the roles even if you do think you have the right person. That's why we have a judicial system that has a system of checks and balances and why we have a jury of our peers to make that final decision if we bend the of to sort of fix if you will what the jury hears then we have destroyed that system but wait. There's more the bombs kept falling. It's at this point that a jail inmate came forward and said that a former friend of hers. A man named kermit you. Gene bryson had admitted to her that it was actually he who had killed malcolm burrows. This one's name was rector and she said that she was with kermit one night after malcolm's murder and they were partying. They were taking pills and kermit turn to her and decided that he needed to get some stuff off of his chest is here v very and you're telling now slot aids the what they made him do after all of this came to light that prosecutor when not let go what he had to do to get out and he at first refused. And that's what made me think things automated hands 'cause he has said i will not plead guilty to anything. I won't die in prison. and he. He wound up waiting guilty to assault becky muscle to get out. I was so thrilled for him. I always thought something was wrong with the forensic evidence. I just knew that there was no way that whoever you couldn't have gotten into a vehicle and left zero ethnic and it. I just knew that everyone his thinks logically. Which would and knows anything about. Forensics would know that so who is kermit bryson exactly so bryson would have been twenty seven years old on the night of malcolm burrows killing at the time he was out on parole after an aggravated burglary conviction. In what did kermit bryson look like. You may be wondering. I'll he had a slight belt. He had red hair and he had freckles. He looked almost identical to adam. Press y'all and i betcha you're wondering what kind of car he drove. Bryson was known to drive his girlfriend's gold. Nine hundred and ninety eight ford escort and beyond not. He had a long history of breaking the law in ninety-seven theft under five hundred ninety eight. He was caught driving with a suspended license. Ninety eight again muffler violation and then ninety nine escalated and was found guilty of theft of property and burglary which landed him in prison. In two thousand kermit was eventually released from prison. And he was free in two thousand six when malcolm burrows was murdered and then on june fifth of two thousand eight brayson shot deputies. Shane tait when the officer showed up to serve him a probation violation warrant. The murder resulted in a police chase followed with the standoff. With officers and during that standoff. He died by suicide by two thousand seventeen. Adam was thirty four years old and back in prison. By this point becky hill malcolm sister who had identified brazil in that photo lineup. As the man who almost beat her to death she passed away. Things outwardly looked grim for brazil. he had been convicted. He had an appeal denied. He had an appeal granted. He had been granted a new trial he had been freed and had that decision reversed and sent back to prison. Think of how devastating that is but behind the scenes there was movement fingerprint. Evidence taken from the boroughs. Murder scene was being re examined by the tbi and the results would yield jaw dropping results. And that's because these fingerprints which were found on the passenger door handle a malcolm burrows chrysler at the murder scene belonged not to amber seal. But you guessed it kermit bryson. Cbi had fingerprints from the car from becky's car. For whatever reason they re tested this fingerprint and it turns out this singer print. I'm that and match and it matches comet bracing and guess what he looks like. No red hair freckles. Despite these revelations two more years dragged on until adam brazil was given an appeal hearing in two thousand nineteen see if he'd be granted another trial and during this hearing prosecutors and defense would argue over the pitfalls of eyewitness testimony the fingerprint evidence in the police and prosecutorial misconduct that landed in brazil behind bars evidence presented at this hearing included testimony from elizabeth rector. Who you heard about who said kermit had confessed to her that he'd actually been the one to kill malcolm burrows then of course officer mike brown the real officer mike brown who was supposed to be on the stand in the first place in the original two thousand seven trial his testimony was also heard he said quote i saw how bloody and messy it was whoever did it would have been covered in blood an officer brown. The real one pointed this out because as we know there was absolutely no blood or forensic evidence proving that adam had been anywhere near any kind of murder especially not one as bloody and vicious as malcolm burrows is beating. There was no blood on him on the car or anything. Real officer. brown's testimony also included the suspicious vanishing. Malcolm's wallet from the entered evidence in how the documentation of said wallet. Also mysteriously vanished in seemed to have been doctored the prosecutor stu strain and was also the original prosecutor in the two thousand seven case. He questioned brown and insinuated. That real officer brown was lying or had made this up as if he'd have any motives to do so but there was more evidence that pointed to adams innocence that his defense plant introduced during the hearing. First kermit bryson's fingerprints were found at the scene and second there. Was that photo lineup. That was used when becky hill identified automobile as killer. And this is because it came to light that there is a huge problem with the way the lineup was conducted that lineup put together by a former grundy. County sheriff named brent myers contained almost no one who looked like the description of the red headed man except brazil by the end of the hearing. The writing was kind of on the wall for how this whole thing was going to go down and the prosecution essence they had to fold. It was clear that adams case had been horribly botched. The state offered adam brazil deal surrendering in the fight to keep him in prison. So this was the deal in exchange for a plea to the most minor of the available charges which was aggravated assault. And he already served more time than he could've being sentenced for that charge. Adam seal admitted a best interest plea also known as an alfred play meaning. He did not admit guilt but acknowledged that prosecutors had enough evidence to convict. Even though in my opinion and probably all yours opinion they didn't this plea. In essence spared prosecutors. The appearance of a loss on paper and meant procedure would walk free but on paper he would still be a felon and it also meant that he wouldn't be able to sue the state for wrongful imprisonment adam. Brazil walked out of prison at thirty six years old as a free man after serving a total of twelve years in prison by august of two thousand nineteen adam. Priscilla was finally free. But it's obvious. He lost a great deal in the process adams wife had left him. Do all the stress of the case in the media circus and his family in the process had to sell land assets to pay for defense attorneys. The court cases caught him in his family over two hundred and sixty thousand dollars and even after his alford plea adam brazil is still considered a convicted felon when it's clear by now to a discerning eye of any sort that he's innocent knowing his family and knowing how much they love him and just made me feel so much better. I'm just hoping that that he can be fully exonerated in her lifetime. Then on february fourteenth of two thousand twenty adam precedes defense. Attorney filed for the state of tennessee to grant them clemency for aggravated assault. So he's looking for full exoneration of grunted county wrongfully convicted of murder. We'll ask the state to clear his name tomorrow. I spent twelve years in prison. Not knowing if i'd ever come home completely innocent. It's a travesty of justice. What happened to me. It shouldn't happen. Adam brazil's attorney alex little said during an interview about adam. His hope is to be exonerated in time for his ailing mother to witness. We don't know how much longer mom is going to be around. And he continued. This particular nightmare is a singular one brought about against mr brazil. He is seeking today for this board and ultimately for the governor to end that nightmare and clear his name in june. Two thousand. Twenty the tennessee border pardons and paroles unanimously seven. Zero martin recommended the governor. That procedure is innocent and should be exonerated and although the board for brazil innocent and recommended that the governor exonerate him the decision will ultimately be left to governor lee to decide. I think that with regard to law enforcement initially when they had one suspect identified and things started to add up for them. We have a suspect who fits the description who drives the right car. Even has the right color. They smoke cats in the car. Was those puzzle. Pieces started clicking into play. I feel like they tunnel vision and then feel a need to look any further than from the prosecution an point. They don't want to prosecute a case unless they feel like they're not gonna win and there's any question about whether they can win a case they are going to stack the deck every time without fail to ensure that they're gonna win it. We ask karen how she feels when she looks back on. This experience having been connected from so many different angles knowing malcolm burrows having a connection to adam brazil and then later covering the trial a journalist. I think probably more difficult than usual to remain unbiased. You feel for side and it was sort of like a saw you know with emotion going back and forth obviously then when he was convicted i felt so bad for his family when he was taken to jalen. It was awful. I encountered him outside of the parking lot and it was absolutely horrible then later when all this started cutting out about corruption and judicial system especially after watching things like making a murder you think you know how far they'll go and then to have it come up in your own home townie. These people wouldn't do that and wouldn't do that. Hopefully it'll be rectified. Soon and and animal have not just his physical freedom but the free from that conviction as you should me adam. Brazil still awaits an official exoneration. I'll never quit considering you know all that's been done in china process and trying to do that for others because i know it's made a difference in my love and our laugh our hope to spend time in the penitentiary in the county jails and not as not as not as someone who's been arrested for some wrongdoing but you don't get it forced me to be put in a situation and the situation has been a blessing in skies. This case is no doubt one of those that is stranger than fiction. Which makes us reflect on this idea again of coincidences and how much we should trust or rely on them or whether we should at all. And if we're to use adam seal story as a case study in the answer would be. Coincidences should never be trusted with certainty. Sometimes there's no more to them than fate or adams case. Terrible terrible luck okay. Well huge huge. Thank you to karen for being a first degree for this episode and last episode. If you're listening out there and you have a story to tell please email us. Hello at the first degree. Podcast dot com. You can follow us an instagram. At the first degree out alexis linkletter at bill johnson. At jack vanik join our facebook group by searching the first degree in the search bar. We are talking true crime all of the time and we're forgoing killing time this week because i ate some bad thai food and i need to spend the rest of the night in bed. Sorry guys an remember. Only you can prevent serial killers and keep your friends. Close shout out to jared monaco for his sound design and creating original music for the first. A cre- are producing team. Caitlyn cleveland taylor. Rogers and alan santiago for podcast one sources for today's episode include knocks. News grundy county herald fox seventeen. Ws mvp usa today. Bird dot com court documents and as always our first guest is always largest source. Do you own or rent your home. Sure you do. And i bet it can be hard work but you know it's easy bundling policies with geico geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home go to geico dot com a quote and see how much you could save. Its gyco easy visit. Geico dot com today. That's geico dot com. Hi everyone this is gillian. Court junkie court junkie is a true crime. Podcast that covers court cases and criminal trials using audio clips and interviews with people close to the cases. Court junkie is available on apple podcasts. And podcast one dot com. A healthy lifestyle should be easy right. Eat veggies drink green smoothies exercise to get your heart rate up. Do yoga bring your heart rate. Down may not be so easy but there is something that helps improve everything and you can do it with your eyes closed. It's sleep sleep. Number knows what it takes to sleep your best the sleep number three sixty smart bed lets you choose your ideal firmness comfort and support on each side. Your sleep number setting. It's the perfect solution for couples. These beds are so smart. They respond to your every move in automatically adjust to keep you sleep comfortably all night. Proven quality sleep is life changing sleep and now you can give comfort joy and life changing sleep to all save up to seven hundred dollars on the new sleep number three sixty smart bed. 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malcolm burrows adam becky hill adams mike brown adam brazil sergeant brown brown Mike brown malcolm troy brown kirk brazil kermit bryson becky jack panic Linkletter billie jensen adam klimer
Jody Plauche

The First Degree

47:51 min | 1 d ago

Jody Plauche

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on apple. Podcasts podcast one. Spotify and anywhere else. You get your podcasts. Okay so something. I'm endlessly passionate about is your perfect sleep experience and thankfully i just got turned onto this company called slumber cloud so the products that are making are more than comfortable utilize the most advanced betting technologies for a truly rested life. And they're betting utilizes a patented technology not found in any other betting products which proactively manages temperature fluctuations throughout the night and. I'm a sleep sweater ruin. That anxiety comes through all night long. And i cannot put a price on this idea of staying cool at night. If you don't have a good night sleep you can't really have anything good in this world. I sleep so so hot and it helps me sleep at the perfect temperature and he used to push pull the covers. I was sick one foot out. Hopefully we'd catch a breeze. This go on forever. And now i'm truly like sleeping at this cool comfortable temperature the entire night and not waking up with those sweaty cold sweats. We all know what i'm talking about and my phone mattress used to cause me to wake up extra hot. But with this bedding get the comfort of memory foam without the night sweats and i've tried other cooling betting products. I've never really found the work until slumber cloud. So i very much encourage you to try it. Slumber cloud temperature regulating bedding products. They create sheets mattress pads and everything in between. I personally got the comforter in a king for big bed but you need to try it. Make sure you check them out. Www dot slumber cloud dot com. And you're going to save ten percent on your purchase with our exclusive code first degree ten. That's slumber cloud dot com ten percent off exclusive code first degree ten warning. Today's episode contains descriptions of crimes being committed against children. Please proceed with caution degree degree. I agree i agree. I the first degree supposed to have movies. Not real life. My dad said. I'm gonna kill the motherfucker and mike like erie. Look i understand. That's how most parents lawn and that was a reaction to cry to be upset and took killing welcome to the first degree the true crime. Podcast that you might end up on my name. Is jack vanik. And i'm sitting kind of sort of close to billy and we're both very far away from alexis. I feel like this is the first time that billionaire both in the same city which is phoenix and alexis is just on her lonesome. Odd woman out alone in burbank alone in burbank. Sounds like the title of Rom com alone in burbank's pretty. Good that you might be starring in. There may not be so today is part one of two part story so if you are the type of person that likes to binge then you gotta hold off until next wednesday but for everybody else we're gonna get into it in a second but i i gotta know what days today billy today is august fourth and that means it's national chocolate chip cookie day favorite day weeks before we delve into that day. It's two days. Post the birthday of billy johnson in rushing porting it on his real birthday. We are recording it on billy's birthday and it's sad that we can't be together. I know it's can't be together. We just discussed what we're going to celebrate once we are together and that is what we're going to get the surf and turf and getting alaba. I want okay. My dream is for them to try to fling a shrimp in billy's mouth and it hits the i god clan. They're like sorry and then they make them the ball the onion volcano. You can probably make them pay them twenty bucks to do that but then and then you could sue them because they burned your eye off and then you might just have to wear patch. But that's okay. Dude that will add your mystique kits different. Look all right well. It is also sorry. We have to go back to the national chocolate chip cookie day. Because that is my favorite cookie. And cookie's are my second favorite food in the entire world to this day. I after knowing jack for over a decade maybe fifteen years. Now i've i've seen her show up to like events when i mean my house. She oh she just had so many cookies with her like over the years like in a little baggie or like in a little creek like bakery bags. She's like oh. I saw cookie and i wanna try it like. She's loves cookies. This woman. I went through a point in high school when i was eating. Six subway chocolate chip cookies every single day. Right i'm puberty. Subways are really good. Mcdonald's or good. My mom used to like i used to come home in the morning or wake up in the morning. I guess in there'd be like mcdonald's cookies wrappers around like what the hell mom your. I don't know where it goes because she eats cookies and she's like rail thin but good for you. Mom are so delicious. I'm going to get crumble cookies later. Which anybody i. I don't know if there are any where outside of phoenix. But there are honestly the best cookie ever had my life. So that's how. I'm going to be celebrating. Hell yeah what are the days billy. It's assistance dog day. Only service dogs everything actually at the phoenix airport. I saw maybe seven of them being trained citizens earnest and they were all like. We're gonna do this. I love that so much. Such sincerity like none of them are militias. That's the thing you can rest assured there's no a power tripping dog trying to become a drug sniffing. They're just like here to please. They were picked there like it. Didn't i didn't choose us life. it chose me. I'm going to do my best with a wagging tail and tow. There definitely. Aren't any psychopath dogs. Which is really delightful. That's right so that's right just thought built for sincerity. Okay well do. We have any other days. Villiers that the most of them. Those are the most wanted man. You guys might like white wine day. Were exactly that's widening sparkling gals exactly but everybody else out there. Go have a nice glass of softbank and listened to the podcast and eat a cookie cookie. Delay all right. Well that's enough of that so let's turn the lights and turn up anxiety because this could be today's case will test. The question is violence ever vindicated. We've talked about vigilante justice before and we've urged those listening to me. Never take the law into your own hands no matter what but one way or another. We can imagine a hypothetical scenario where we can imagine going after someone who hurt one of our loved ones. People can be driven to do almost anything if the sting of betrayal is so great or if we're gutted by law so painful that revenge is the only option. Today's episode should act as a warning and reminder to would be criminals everywhere you should never justify causing harm in any capacity because of justice system in britain of punishment may not be the only patents. You're forced to pay remember when you harm others children. Especially there's always that chance you could pay with your life so the setting today's case is baton rouge louisiana. It's the state capitol. It's it's an hour away from new orleans back in the sixteen. Hundreds the french call this area lay baton rouge meaning red stick because it marked boundary between two different tribal hunting grounds excellent pronunciation. William no very fancy. Today's case spans a pretty broad spectrum of time so we're going to refer back to the mid eighty s nine hundred eighty three and eighty four songs. Topping the charts. Were billie jean. By michael jackson every breath you take by the police jump by van. Halen when doves cry by prince and footloose by kenny. Loggins that is a whole string of heads. I know but wait until you hear the movies. This is just the best time ever. The movies in theaters included the outsiders star wars. Return of the jedi. Sixteen candles which is one of my. All time fades indiana jones and the temple of doom. It was what a time to be alive. Yes absolutely and our first degree. Today is jody shea who is now forty nine years old but like jack just said. We're back in the early eighties when jodi was just ten. It's sorted when i was in fifth grade. I was in class and hand out forms for like extracurricular activity. Will i got a forum for karate lessons like tin karate lessons for thirty nine dollars or whatever it wasn't i crumpled up literally into it in the garbage. Can well by younger brother. He was going to elementary school the same school district. He brought us flyer home so my mother saw the fire. It was like oh that would be good. We can put him in the karate. Jody wasn't interested in karate but his mom who is near june was interested in keeping her son's busy after school so she enrolled jody and his brothers in a half kito school which is for martial arts in karate so my mom was like well. I'll put mike karate and i'll just above dirty. My older brother and mike younger brother poor pretending to karate together and so she signed us up and also her best friend. Her son signed to sousa force. We go to one of the lessons in his. I mean it was real basic and we'd go back to the second lesson like a week later or a couple of days later we'll guy doesn't show up you go back for the third left and he doesn't show up again. The programs regular karate teacher was a wall so new one was hired the organization that sponsors distraught lesson. Turn the names of the people over to this new karate instructor named jeff do set and jeff called got in contact with the family instead that he would honor these lessons but they'd already paid or and if they liked it they continue on karate teacher. Jeff do set was twenty four years old and originally from port arthur texas which is about three hours west of baton rouge. So here's a little background on him. He was one of seven kids. His father was a service station owner. Jeff actually dropped out of school in the ninth grade and eventually moved to baton rouge and upon his move. He was pretty lonely guy. He didn't really have any friends or family in this new city that he just kind of picked up and moved to teaching. Karate was jeff's main source of income but also had a side hustle of laying down carpets with his brother who was based back in port arthur. Texas what it was karate that became the center of jeff's life even lived in the quarters at the karate studio. He immersed himself in the lives of the students. He taught he became friends with the families and created his social circle that way. So here's jeff in an interview about martial arts talking about the sport homeboys wrist locks. Show colds that. Come from judah. Jody by all accounts really enjoyed his new karate instructor. We thought it was pretty cool. I mean he had. He had a real karate studio joe. I'm he had matched on the floor. He had a another area with a heavy bag. And i mean it was. It was a gym training so we thought it was. It was pretty cool so you know we had fun doing it. And as it turned out jodi and his brother should tremendous potential in the sport so after a couple of lessons. Jeff go saw mother and he's like look. Your kids are really athletic. Really good you know. We have a competitive fighting team. They possibly could join it and it just so happened. They had tournament coming up this particular weekend and he invited all the kids. You know to go see a movie called. They told me bruce. It was a karate movie. So jeff told jody's parents that he was taking the students on the competitive fighting team to see they. Call me bruce. Instead of the that they do before any tournaments they go out for pizza. Go watch a movie you know. And then they traveled to. I think it was a new orleans. Travel new old and fight the next day but this is something that do regularly fighting gene does jodi went to the tournament and excelled and then he went to another and then another and as jody remembers it. Karate became a central part of his life and even as parents got to know entrust their karate teacher. Jeff jody your calls one particular night when jeff arrange for group of his students to go to the famous chuck cheese. And who doesn't love to go to chucky cheese loved chucky cheese off debt. We went out that night. We went to chucky cheese. My somebody dad got the medium. And you know your. I'm ten years old by brothers seven and we're running around the movie. It was great. Every kid's dream. Jody is hanging out with his brother. His karate coach who had opened this world up to him and his parents are getting involved too so he was stoudt and as the placebo has got more and more involved re karate. Jeff became more and more of a fixture in the families orbit. You have to remember. Jeff is only twenty four. He's a young guy and he doesn't know anyone in baton rouge so we're sure. He's thrilled that his family is welcoming him in and he's getting the sense of community that most people crave jody's parents were thirty. Nine year olds. Gary in june and they really liked jeff in the boys saw him sort of like an uncle figure. One particular time jody's at gary brought jeff home with them for family dinner and gave him spare clothes to change into and after that jeff would start bringing the boys home from karate he would take them tournaments as well as other fun activities connected to the fight team. There was real trust built between jeff in that family but on february nineteenth nineteen eighty-four that trust would be shaken to the core was january nineteenth. Nineteen eighty-four it was a sunday morning. He asked my my little border. Cork this is how close this family had become far each other's cars and things like that jeff told jody's mom that he didn't have his car because his brother dropped him off and that he needed his car because of some business dealing with having to do with down with his brother. So jody's mom. June said sure or the car. Jeff said he'd have the car back soon and then he laughed but he brought jody with him. They did meet up with. Jeff's brother. Mike in port arthur but it definitely wasn't to conduct any business. We drove out to his brothers. Mike house grab some clothes and sleeping bag and other stuff and we took my mother's call from gonzales. Louisiana support arthur texas and. That's where his mother and sister live. That's where he was from. Okay so why. The hell is jody with jeff on this excursion. And what exactly is going on here. Here's jody on what happened next. We say we just sunday night. And then the next day we went to another port louisiana looking for money basically. We didn't have any money. Okay so let's unpacked. Some of what is going on here. Jeff borrowed the car belonging to the mom of a little boy. He teaches karate to he said little boy with him but they don't go where they said that they were going the grab clothes and camping equipment and then jeff takes jodi out of state and we assume that right now alarm bells are probably going off in your head and have been for some time. Now they're going off and ours too but remember it's nineteen eighty four and it's unclear at what point jody's parents would have realized that jodi was actually missing and it's not like jeff had a cell phone that they could call at anytime of the day so at this point. Just imagine the paralyzed state of jody's family. Who do you call. would you do. And how the hell do you track down your kid okay. And last time jodi spoke. He said something about jeff driving around and looking for money. So let's unpack that a little bit. So here's the thing that no one could have known. Jeff had a history of fraud. And he's young so no one's expecting him to have this so he tried to students to the national karate circuit by selling lsu mugs and tiger rags to football fans in the area seem super wholesome. This is like sporting stuff little like memorabilia. Little like accessories. Should you buy it like gift shop at a stadium. Right so seems pretty wholesome. I'd buy a mug from acute kidney. Crotty inform if they were selling it to get to a competition. But here's the thing people would buy them but no mugs are or things that they bought ever arrive. So this is a great mug caper that occurred but in addition to that jeff also pass bad checks pass so in fact he was supposed to appear in court on the very same day. He asked to borrow jody's mom's car on february nineteenth of eighty four. So speaking of jody's mom's car. What do we think jody's parents are thinking at this point. So they also don't have their car and their ten year. Old son is missing. Luckily though jody's parents had received word at this point about what was going on and it put their minds at ease ever so slightly into briefly but this call did not come from jeff himself so that sunday night jeff. Mother called my mother instead. Jody's with jeff. Don't worry he's bringing him home. Tamar okay so. My mother was too thrilled about that yet. No mother is going to be thrilled about this. And you could put yourself jody's mom shoes. You're trying not to be upset. You're trying not to think. The worst in give jeff the benefit of the doubt and remember jodi had gone with jeff on overnight trips countless times for karate related purposes. But this time was different. This wasn't a set trip that everybody knew about. It's not really a surprise. That i while annoy jody's mom. June didn't really freak out about this something to note about this time in the lives of that play family jody's mom june. Her husband gary had recently begun the process of separated right and dissolving marriage is obviously a very potentially painful and a contentious chain of events and it not only be a huge distraction but a very stressful event for literally anybody involved so in an effort to help jeff would do things like dr jody to and from crotty class and that was a huge help to mother june jeff june had developed a close relationship over time one that pivoted into a friendship as well sure and the depths of june ingests relationship are not super clear but a lot of media reports described. Their relationship as intimate. Although it's not written anywhere that anything ever turned physical between them. But i think from the position of optics. They were closer than what anyone would expect. What we do know for sure is that there was a lot of trust built between jeff and the pla shea family by this point especially with june so it lends itself to this whole idea that she's not freaking out at first like she doesn't think the worst of this guy at least in the beginning will in this kind of reminds me a little bit of abducted in plain sight because the abductor in that movie was one of the families best friends they built so much trust in everybody a relationship with him differently but the main you know underlying thing is they trusted him and he took advantage of that trust right in the naievty that people had back then because they didn't have things like true crime podcast or or shows like abducted in plain sight to watch there. Were so many niceties to like. You didn't accuse someone if you were wrong. Like it was just different. You didn't think that these people were lurking around. And i'm sure back. In the day people cared a lot more about their perception and how everybody saw them so for you to like publicly kind of accuse somebody of doing that. It would reflect poorly on your character. Not saying that they were doing this in that situation but probably a lot of families back in the eighty s and even earlier in the seventies sixties wouldn't dare let anybody know what was happening behind closed doors and having grown up in the eighties and i remember. There is actually a teacher. That was that i'm getting very jeff vibes from and then he would do things like take kids out on trips and then he would do like a cross country trip every year with these kids and parents would let him and at one point. I believe he was starting to like like. He took me in three of their friends to a harlem globetrotters basketball game. And i like he was going to potentially asked me to go on this trip. And my dad's like no frigging way in hell. You're going on this trip. But my dad had been to prison and everything so he knew how bad shit was out there. But you're right. There wasn't a lot of stuff out there that was a but other people were just letting their kids go on. These trips with this guy remembers the eighties. Like they were pretending. Gay people didn't exist or that they were choosing it and it was this like reckless choice. It's like to suggest that your son could be abused by. Your teacher was just like the could not go there. Won't it's the same thing that we talked about recently. I can't remember which podcasts it was in but it's like the whole stranger. Danger was like so huge and you could never assume that somebody that you knew would be the person that could ever do something bad to a family member when in reality again. It's like the most likely suspect is going to be made. That is and this is when all you know. Obviously all those things that were going on with priests too. That's the other thing that i'm starting to think about and then scout scott leaders and all that yup totally. So there's something else you want to revisit real quick on the heels of something jodi told us so this whole idea that jeff's mom call jody's mom to tell her that jeff jody where together and jeff had him and there's nothing to worry about. This is weird. This is the word shit. Like why does jeff's mom why she cool with the fact that her son is toting this little boy around and as it turns out jeff had actually introduced jodi and june to his mom several times like the trust building went really really deep here. So you know jody's mom june receives call from jeff's mom and it's like. Oh yeah. don't worry jeff. Jody and it. It probably put her mind at ease for a bit. That being said though. We're learning behind the scenes. It's all a lot more incestuous than it appears and just mom had even watched jodi on a few occasions which meant that jeff's mother would have known all about the relationship and at least known who jodi was so it was sunday when jeff's mom made that call to jody's mom telling june that jeff would bring jody back on monday. While surprise surprise. Monday came money. Went and jodi was not returned monday. We went through his uncle health in texas looking for money to borrow money to get some bus tickets to california california looking for money. What the hell is going on. He was telling his mother he was taking me to new york and his mother helped him get. Some money gave him his older brothers chicken so when he got the california he could get a driver's license under his brother's name again with jeff's mother. You know what the fuck is happening. And we're going to revisit her a little bit later but what we have now here is jeff trying to steal. His brother's identity and his mom is helping him. He's lying saying he's taking jody to new york when he's really going to california so certainly by now you've picked up on the fact that we're not telling you a story about a guy just committing mug fraud or bouncing checks. There's some dark shit that is going on here and trust me. We're to get there by this point. Jodi has not been returned when he was supposed to be and his family was fucking pissed and there were probably afraid and they had no idea that jeff was taking their little boy to california so despite their apparent love and loyalty to jeff. They knew what they had to do. She didn't call the cops me. I mean she had no had no reason to believe. That was gonna take me to california what. I didn't come home the next day. That's what i guess. She called the cops later that afternoon. So as soon as jody's mom. June got the cops involved. The real search for this missing child began in. It exploded into a national search. Meanwhile jeff ditch june's car in texas and his mom surprise surprise helped him get money so jeff. Jody were on a bus headed to los angeles orange texas to los angeles and that's usually more than my mother and members of the battery sheriff's office. They drove to puerto rico finding and they just missed. The days kept passing in the seriousness of the situation kept escalating so by now. Jody been missing for a week and hadn't spoken to his mother in seven days. Jeff meanwhile had shaved his beard indic- jody's hair from blonde to black li revealed that jeff began referring to jodi as son to strangers. They would meet california a week without speaking to my mother. So jeff was like look. Call your mother and let her know. You're okay so i did that. I called my mother let her novels. Okay we were saying we were in new york and at least she knew we were okay. Meanwhile they're taping the phone conversation. She's got sheriff's deputies. Mayor's got police at the house. He's telling her what to say trying to keep him in as long as possible. They're recording the calls by now a national search for jody was underway. The police were trying to keep jodi on the phone as long as possible because they wanted to trace the call to identify their location officers knew about the relationship between jeff and june and use that to their advantage. They had june 'til jeff. Gary might use this to get custody of all the children if you don't bring jody back. Jeff responded if the court gives gary the kids. I'll get them from him. This is starting to get insane and really scary. So he's in california and anaheim california literally a block from disneyland and he called. My mother collect and after that phone call was done. My mother asked for time and charges. The operator came back on the taylor. How long the call was and how much it was going to call. And that's when mike burnett with the bat roost sheriff's office got on the phone and said look. This is a federal investigation of kidnapping. I didn't know exactly. That room came call came from They told them room. Thirty eight motel four fifteen west catella avenue anaheim california's jeff. Joni were at a super eight motel right near disneyland. Which is so ironic. Because that's supposed to be the happiest place on earth law enforcement now knew exactly where they were and while june still had jeff on the phone the fbi and officers were on their way to rescue. Jody she could literally hear what was going on to recall those moments during an interview with. Espn i hear this banging on the door and the guy was yelling break break. Police and i heard the phone hit the table and i could still hear them get in goes duty. Your calls the moments of his rescue as well so they sit in a team of police officers. Fbi and they busted in the door and they arrested him and they took me out nfl. Last time i ever saw jeff was pulled from that super motel arrested and charged with the aggravated kidnapping of jodi during his arrest. Jeff phoned a friend. Tell him he was only guilty of bad judgment. He was denying what was being said of him. Jeff at also told a friend that he was using. Jody pressure june in joining him in california. All bullshit by the way he was then taken to the orange county california jail in my now. The media had taken hold of this story especially in his hometown of baton rouge louisiana so when i was kidnapped and i was going to be returned to new orleans on. Moore's first they had a camera crew. They're killing me being returned and being reunited with my family. Once judy's parents were reunited with their sign. They were so relieved that he appeared unharmed outwardly. he was unscathed. at least that's how he appeared and at this point we have an address the pressing question of why jeff abducted jody. And we're gonna tell you right off the break. Each year thousands of people go missing their stories occasionally show up in the nightly news but missing persons cases are often under reported and the cases often go unsolved the vanished podcast from wondering has changed the way that we look at these cases by telling stories of missing persons that often overlooked by the media the vanish. Amc give the victims and families the adequate coverage that they deserve. Okay so what the vanished apart. Hosmer jones doesn't sensationalize or explain which we really really respect over here at the first degree and she gets the story from friends and family of the missing person infrequently talks with law enforcement and others close to the case and she wants to help families find their vanished loved ones or a sense of peace. I just listened to the buddy alexander. A podcast of the vanish and this actually happened. Two years ago and her daughter is still trying to find her mom so listen to new episodes of the vanish on apple. 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This means they can offer smarter rates with trusted partners and with a five minute online rate. Check you can see your rate upfront for loans between one thousand and fifty thousand dollars and you can receive funds and as fast as one business day after accepting your loan. So find out. How upstart can lower your monthly payments. Stay when you go to upstart dot com slash first degree. That's upstart dot com slash. First degree don't to use our euro and let them know we sent you. Loan amounts will be determined based on your credit income and other certain information provided in your loan application upstart dot com slash first degree eleven year. Old jodie push had been abducted by his twenty five year old. Karate teacher jeff do set after being gone for more than a week to police era in a motel in anaheim california after tracing a phone call. Jeff made to jody's mom. Once jodi was safe he was questioned by police about what jeff had subjected him to and jodi shirley confused shirley in a state of shock cheered very little about his ordeal with the police. So i decided. I was going to keep my mouth shut and lie and not say nothing until the hospital report came back and then i decided i was going to tell the truth that way. Jeff came after me and saying that. I told him i can say no. You got yourself called to be clear. Jody was taken to the hospital and checked for signs of abuse. And what he was saying is that he lied when police asked him what happened because he knew the hospital tests would reveal the truth and clearly he was under control and he was designing the scenario in such a way that he didn't have to overtly tell the police what jeff had done to him and what jeff had been doing to him for upwards of two years now jody new evidence at the hospital would speak for itself and it did. They took me to the police station in question then. They took me to the hospital. The have a rape kit done to see if you know. I've been sexually assaulted. So i knew that rape kit would come back positive but they had a test at the land i so i decided i was gonna lie until the test reports came back and then i decided i was gonna tell the truth. And that's exactly what happened. I knew that the hospital report would come back. It's showing evidence that jeff had his dna inside of me. We didn't call dna back then. But you know dna. Sodomy truth was the jeff do set was a disgusting pathetic pedophile predator hiding behind karate garb and masquerading as a mentor and a good influence on the play children. As jeff was leaving the orange county jail he had spoken to law enforcement and he said something to some of the fbi in baton rouge deputies and this is a direct quote. I want to tell you about it to having sex with jodi and all the gory details unquote. So he's smug he's unapologetic. He sick minded. he's terrifying. He also admitted that he had abused other children in baton rouge but he refused at that point at least to elaborate on which children i fly home mortgage. I nine hundred nineteen four. I think it was march ninth. Little over a week later where mike burnett with the battery. Sheriff's office came to the house with the hospital report and told my parents. The hostile report came back. Positive with bermuda zoolander rectal slide. So they knew that. Jeff had full with ming and so they started cry. Jodie's father continued to express anguish to deputy mike barnett a law enforcement officer. Who worked the case. My dad said. I'm gonna kill the motherfucker and mike look i understand. That's how those parents respond and that was a reaction decry to be upset and he was gonna killing okay. So how long was this abuse going on how it happened right under everyones noses. Jodi had been in karate for almost two years. So you know the drill. We gotta go back to the beginning. Here's how it started two years prior. When jodi has brothers. I started taking karate classes with jeff. Jeff always make sure to procure very fun experiences. Everything around jeff. At that time was everything was we. Were having fun. We were learning karate going to the movies. Hang out for pizza. it was looking back. that's obviously a grooming tactic. But you know he was doing his job grooming very well. For those who have never heard the explicit definition of grooming grooming is the action by a pedophile a preparing a child for abuse in one way shape form. We've all seen to catch a predator. Some of them do this via the internet. Some do with children. They have access to like in this case. Eventually after they've gained access and started to procure the fun activities they start to test boundaries. Looking back he gradually made it to where part of our stretching like do a split. Well he would help us do a split and he would be holding the inside of our ties to kinda balances. And i mean that was his way of kind of introducing. You know him being able to touch private area without me raising any flat so looking back that probably has been. He started his grooming. Jeff slowly started to double down when he went to the next level. We were coming home from karate schools because practice one day and he was letting kids drive the car. Yeah the is quote unquote girlfriend's car. And he would he was to schist and we would steer and we would go around the block neighborhood. And that's when he first. Or what. I i really notice and putting his hand in my life on my pizzas and you know. Just like whoa. What's going on but it's been a real big like it was something that was kind of sudden where it could have been brushed off as an accident and things progressed from there from there it gradually went on to more Fondling he actually. We were going crawfish and he had got a hotel room tonight before. There's always like seven eight kids around so there before kids in one bed and then three kids in another bread in jeff but jeff would always put me on the outside so he could turn his back to the other two kids and if you do things that they couldn't see and that this particular night he literally rubbed my penis raw. While i laid in bed trying to pretend like i was asleep. And that's what i was like. Okay now i'm sure decided accident. Jody didn't say anything he was a child. He was confused. And obviously what's happening here. Isn't something an eleven year old mine can process and then it was like a couple of weeks later we were in houston. He said i'm gonna basically almost like dick. That's that's quote unquote and i was like. Why didn't know why he wanted to do that. And that night. That's exactly what he did. He follows through this jody's mom had actually warned him about sexual predators she had shown him a. Psa type film that warned of the dangers of these types of criminals. My mother made just watch it and she wants to be with us and she told me she said look there. Are people out there. That'll do bad things to kids. And it's someone ever does anything you can tell me. Be okay so she warned me so in my brain. I'm thinking this is one of these people balmy warned me about but i'm still ten years old and i knew if i told it would upset my parents despite knowing what jeff was doing was wrong. Jody's young mind was afraid of upsetting his parents. You know this is how children think they will keep pain and abuse to themselves as to not upset adults and children rely on adults for everything. They're vulnerable members of society and sometimes pieces of shit like jeff exploit this to their benefit and that point the abuse continued lamont where he would just perform all sex. Me jeff would do this boldly during karate practice. Everybody doing jumping jacks karate. Flip some push ups and i would go to the bathroom. Then he'd have somebody else leave the class and then he performer will sesame and he did that for about a month then he basically told me he was like sexy not in those words but that's what he told me and that's what he started doing. Predatory a monster. But in the meantime we're still doing fun. Things going to the movies. Go going to the ball. You know so there. Is that kind of cognitive dissonance. Where you're like okay. I don't know. I don't want i don't want to be around him. But he's fun to be around. But what was the catalyst for jeff to kidnap. Jody and take him to california. The answer to that question comes into parts. The first is that jeff was slowly securing more and more access to jodie. My parents split up. And that allowed jeff kinda more access or you know he would offer. I'll bring him home from friday practice. You know you think you could get or whatever. My mother had to get a job ship it. We're clean houses so it just gets a little bit more access to where he was around us a lot more and a lot of people thought in basically from my dad telling everybody that just and my mother were a couple and i tell people all the time. I'm like okay. Even if they were doesn't give him any right to have with any of other children okay but they worked but it had that appears i can see where people think that but my mother and just did not have a romantic relationship. I can assure you that again with a confusion about junin jess relationship. They looked like a couple and had the optics of being a couple. But according to those closest to the case they were never actually a couple outwardly. Jeff presented himself as someone you could trust in someone who came from humble means but really he was dealing with severe money trouble. He was trying to scam people out of money and he was always claiming that it was for the kids. We can't forget the ongoing court case for what she was supposed to appear the day. He left with jodie. But following jody's abduction jeff. Subsequent arrest jefferson exposes. The true predator was jodi had finally been rescued from his grasp in slowly. You could be on the road to healing. Its entire family. Needed to recover from this heart. Wrenching betrayal just. Imagine being julie's parents here's his dad. Gary talking reporters the day jodi was returned to them at the airport as a parent in your position to. Did you learn anything from this. Just how much. I love children. I might be a little bit more protective over protective. I don't know on march first. Nineteen eighty-four. Jody was welcome home by his parents and siblings in the video. They're hugging each other. And they're touching jody's face and you have to understand. There had to have been a moment where they consider that they might never see their son again. And you see video gary june. Brush their hands through jody's hair which remember starkly different to them because it had been dyed black. Here's audio of june at the airport in hair me. What's my mother's sat me down and informed me that they knew without a reasonable doubt that jeff had basically had sexual intercourse with me. Seeing my mother of calm. I was kinda shocked. But i admit it. I fully admitted what had happened and told her. How long has it been going on for. And all the things that he did to me and she's still calm so i still i. It felt like the way of the world has been left off my shoulder. I knew for the first time in over a year. I could go outside and play with my friends without having the question in answer about where i was and what i was doing so i felt like a kid. I felt wonderful. I felt like all my problems behind me. Ultimately that was not the case. That wasn't the case at all. Because the truth was this was only. The beginning of the story was about a week between when my dad found out about what jeff done to me and ultimately would eventually happened. You already know that. This is a two part episode. Jacksonville wonderfully informed. You have in the beginning for those of you who liked to listen to them. All you know in succession but we're not monsters and we're going to give you hint as to what happens in part to my dad. Said i'm gonna kill the motherfucker and michael idea. Look i understand that. Tell those parents swan. And that was the reaction to cry to be abedin and killing and guess. What jeff's dodd gerry. Does as he says it will huge thank you to jody for being with us The soda he will be with us next week as well Until then if you're listening and you have a story to tell these email us. Hello at the i re- podcast dot com. You can follow us. An instagram janik. alex's linkletter at bill jensen at the first degree. please join our. Facebook grew by searching the first read in the search bar. We are talking true crime all the time and then also some not true crime killing time type of things and speaking of killing time check back. Tomorrow interfered for a brand new episode. Remember only you can serial killers. Keep your friends close. But not clo- happy cookie day white wine day. Happy birthday belly before they. Billy shut up to gerard monaco for scoring and creating original music for the first degree producing by caitlyn cleveland producing an additional riding bhai taylor rogers and producing by ounce and geographer podcast. One sources for this episode are. Espn the advocate. The washington post associated press among others and as always. Our first guest is always our largest sewers owner wrench. Your home sure you do about. It can be hard work. But you know it's easy bundling policies gyco guy makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home go to geico dot com. Get a quote and see how much you could save. Gyco easy visit guy dot com today. That is geico dot com. I am the leblanc. And i megan an elizabeth and where the hosts of trust me the podcast about colts extreme belief and the abuse of power. Now on podcast one. We're real life called survivors. And we're here to tell you anyone can join a cult if you've ever dived headfirst into a new self help program or believable heartedly in a spiritual practice or even just trusted someone with your life. Guess what your just the susceptible as everyone else. No one is safe especially not meghan. I'm the most susceptible we want. To debunk the myth. That people who joined colts are uneducated or naive or broken because anyone can be manipulated by a narcissist or feel good in a new group. They've joined and we should know we both have been doing every week. As we explore the world of extreme belief talk to survivors and experts share our own experiences with colts abuse of power. Don't be fooled. Might be next. Get new episodes of trust me every wednesday on podcast. One spotify apple podcasts. And anywhere you get your podcasts.

jeff jody jodi karate Jeff Jody baton rouge billy california burbank port arthur jack vanik billy johnson alaba alexis jody shea jack just kito school
Malcolm Burrows

The First Degree

55:20 min | 8 months ago

Malcolm Burrows

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on apple. Podcasts podcast one. Spotify and anywhere else. You get your podcasts. So i absolutely love luxury items. But i have never paid luxury prices for anything that i owned because i literally get everything luxury that i have from the real real. So the real real is the largest and most trusted source for authenticated luxury consignment so on the app you can shop and sell top designers. Twenty four seven from anywhere think gucci. Louis vitton rolex cartier. chanel and more all up to ninety percent of retail. And everything is authenticated by a team overseen by luxury experts and thousands of new items arrive daily and you can also sell luxury adams no longer us. I was just in the trunk of my car earlier today. Counting all the luxury items that i'm going to sell on the real real this week. They make it so easy to sell you book an appointment on the app truck your items with your personalized my sales dashboard and get notifications when you're item sell so download the real real app today and shopping sell your favorite luxury brands and get twenty percent off. Select items of code real plus new shoppers. Get twenty five dollars. After i purchase available in the app store or google play. Get the real real app. Today i agree. I agree i the first degree movies not not only can. I know the victim of the crime. I also you the suspect. Welcome to the first degree. The true crime podcast that you might end up on my name. Is jack vanak. I'm sitting far away from alexis. Linkletter and billie jensen. And you know what. Billy i believe in the beginning of our podcast every episode. I would talk about something wacky that you were wearing. And today i would like to make note of your mock neck turtleneck. Eyeglass scruffy combo. You look like an author. You look like you're going to play a the bongos that up at a coffee. Let you tap. And and i'm gonna smoke some club cigarettes. I my beret is in the wash. It was just incredibly cold day. It was actually doesn't affect me. But i was just like. Hey this clean them. i'm doing it. Yeah as maybe under seventy degrees in california. That's when we very chivalry exactly well. That is a mock neck turtleneck. Billy by it's got it's not mocked because it goes up Okay it's a full turtle there for everybody listening. Billy's turtle. did. I just know more about fashion than jack just perspective. Because we're on zoom billy to me. It looks like a mock neck anyways. Our listeners can't see us. So this argument is one of our. So moot billy. What day is it today. I will say that. Today is december ninth and it is international anti corruption day. I'm all here for that one. The yes it's also national lama day. Oh nothing look at good lama. You know in the beginning of the pandemic. When i thought it was gonna take up cookie decorating. I like sugar cookie decorating about that was going to be my thing. The first cookie mold that i bought was allama and i never used it once. Oh of course they absolutely that big thick long neck. Yeah audie yeah as you think this camel never mind onward alright. It's also weary willie day. Who apparently was a sad hobo. Climb that was played by emmett kelly terrifying on next. No thank you know. Not not good way. Believe not looking at my phone. But i looked at them before i believe is national pastry day. That is billy he always jackie. No no no. No i do the intro. Billy you jack will do the basic things like it's national pacer day and you guys we'll talk about all like. Oh my god i love a croissant from this place that place now. I keep it real with weary willie day. That is about sadness. Okay i mean. I don't need i don't need to be any sadder than i am already but thank you. Okay okay. well that's enough of that so let's turn on lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be you. Coincidence is dictionary defined as a striking occurrence of two or more events at one time apparently by mere chance. Rex stout said in a world that it's largely at random coincidences expected. But one of them always be mistrusted and then a quote from v for vendetta reads. there are no coincidences. Only the illusion of coincidence now look inward what would you think if presented with one seemingly impossible implausible coincidence. How about two or three razor would tell us to dismiss them. That coincidences are the exception. Not the rule but today's case defies everything we've ever been taught about reason and chance and the final statement of our tagline has never rang more true as you're listening to this just remember. This could be you. Today's case takes us back to saturday. January seventh of two thousand six songs. Don't forget about us. Mariah carey check on by beyond say and gold digger by kanye west. Were topping the charts and movies. Cheaper by the dozen. Two cazenove and fun with dick and jane were in the theaters. And today's case takes place in tracy city which is in grundy county tennessee the southeastern part of the state. It's got plenty of trees and hills nestled in a valley area who tracy city itself is a very small town. It takes up only about five square miles around. Fourteen hundred people occupying mostly single story. Homes are first degree whose name is karen was born and raised in grundy county and call this unique place. Twenty ask people of that way. They don't say train city they say grundy county one of the way it is. There and part of appalachia is a region where coal mining is the primary industry that employs residents. Apparently it all started in eighteen forty when some local boys were trying to dig a groundhog out of the dirt which is rude might a and they discovered coal in this process. So this was the catalyst to the coal mining explosion in this region very economically depressed. So that if you're not as coalminer you kinda gotta figure out a way to live and coal mining and it's not the ideal way to make a living either because it's you black lung and walking around with cold using out of your whereas all the time to supplement income sort of like you back in the one question was gone. People is sixteen seventies war making moonshine and eighty thing to do there. Was i guess. Car theft ring and the nineties mess. Now as the sale of prescription pill. I hate to say that about my birthplace. And that's just the way it is to sum up what karen is saying beyond coal mining. There were few other job opportunities or prospects for residents as a means for primary or supplementary income. So many people even those considered to be upstanding essentially side hustles as a means to supplement their income. And they weren't always legal. This was a pretty commonplace thing will come into play later in our story. It was january of two thousand six when karen who is working as a tv journalists at the time received some shocking news. It started with a call for police to come to a home in tracy city to investigate a brutal assault. The person who called the police was thirty. Four year. old kirk brandon and the victim was his mom. Becky hill officers arrived to the scene and approach the home which was located off a desolate road. The owner of the home told the police that the victim was actually next door. Kirk had called from the neighbor's house because they didn't have a phone. It was january in the southeast. The ground was covered with leaves and scattered brush. Everything was damp cold and dark inside. They found becky severely injured. She had been beaten within an inch of her life. Two hours after the officers arrived to help becky a grundy. County sheriff's office sergeant named mike brown discovered a body along dark rural stretch of melissa. Rock road the victim was becky's brother sixty year old malcolm burrows and it appeared that malcolm had been struck as many as a dozen times may be more with enough force split. His skull nearly in half. Malcolm's car was there and there is blood spattered all over the road and all over the car. The police began investigating and news of what had happened. Malcolm started to spread. Eventually the news reached karen and she was floored because she had known malcolm's since she was a little girl and two thousand six. I was working for a local cable television station there so i probably came by the news before anyone else and i'm shocked. I can't imagine you. Who would want to hunt malcolm very sad. This kind of thing happened parents. Father and malcolm been friends for as long as she could remember. He was just one of the people that came in and out of the hassles one of many who was involved in that with my dad and my uncle. He attempted at one point even a political career. When i got older and well he didn't just attempt to. He sat on the The city council and city for term or two and he even ran from their unsuccessfully. He was a super nice dash. And we've anything to like him. I was acquainted with his whole family. Here's what else we know about malcolm. He was like guy who dabbled in politics. He worked just one of the city councilman and even tried to run for mayor. Once he didn't get elected. Malcolm was one of these guys. We described the beginning of our episode. He was a well like family. Man who also did some sort of illicit dealings on the side and now cups. Casey sold pills. And while this was largely rumored he did have one two thousand three felony conviction for selling pills illegally but remember in this region everyone kind of had a side thing going on so this wasn't much of a stain on malcolm as a person he was really well liked by those who knew him so as far as this story were telling retina extreme advantage. Karen has us tell it because she was working as a reporter at the time and she also knew the victim and his family as far as where the police were. At this point becky had been severely injured during the salt but she survived and she slowly was able to recall what happened that night and this was a relief for law enforcement because becky must have seen her attacker so she and her son kirk held the key to identifying the perpetrator becky's son could fill in the police. In on the parts of the incident that he had witnessed and becky's account is really the one that could help reveal. Who was responsible in how this happened. And when becky woke up she told them it was the evening of january seventh way this whole thing played out was that had knocked on the door of the home of malcolm and his sister. Becky and becky's son kirk isn't pow nine o'clock in the evening now you're my lived is a this is a very rural area overall but where they live with remote up in a place known as melissa rock. And you don't just happen upon this neighborhood or this place so have someone knock on. Their door. must've felt unusual to him. I think becky hansen the door and the young man war and asked for malcolm and indicated that he was having troubles with his car. That card went out of gas and he needed knock himself. So malcolm comes into war and he indicated he. Yeah he's he's be happy to help them. So malcolm agrees and leaves with this man who appeared to be acquainted with malcolm. Offer this guy riding his chrysler back to the broken down car. So the two gotten and malcolm's car and drove off. The young man comes back. We'll talk later. And some the origin and becky goes to warrant any indicates to her now and penn sent him back and had asked that she gets startled fluid or something like that. Nothing has sent. It was under the kitchen sink so when he goes to Were trained whatever has come from kitchen packed her and leading her over the head. Becky was struck in the head with a baseball bat over and over again and as beating took place. Becky started screaming for her son. Kirk who happened to be living there as well and the assailant had no idea about this. Were screams will come up. And he ran to the kitchen to see what was going on as he approached. The man hurled fire extinguisher at kirk. But the arrival of becky's son was enough to cause the man to retreat. He ran outside and escaped the scene in a gold car. There was no phone in this home. So kirk ran next store to the neighbor's house and called nine hundred one and nine fifty two pm. And of course as we know as the police began investigating the assaults on. Becky is when they discovered malcolm's body down the road. I believe sometimes film four they realize that malcolm is several states away from her car was thinking down to it and he's been to now and had been just fashion and he's laying I think several feet ten twelve fifteen feet away from the open door. he's been beaten to the. Apparently they cross out the car. There was a bat and baseball bat then found apparently they try engine develop fingerprints initially and i don't think we're able to compel fingerprints from the baseball bat. I don't take those. Surface is very conducive to too late in print but anyway he didn't really have a lot of success when any physical evidence. Both becky and kirk described the man who had attacked them. he looked young in his twenties. He had red hair medium height freckles and a slight build. He drove a gold car and had a white baseball cap on. As you mentioned this area is very small. Everyone knows everyone shirley with an appearance. Oh specific the police should be able to zero in on a suspect quickly as the investigation unfolded. The please kept note of the very specific appearance of the assailant and officer brown. The same officer. Who had discovered malcolm's body began by asking around town to see if these characteristics dugout tiny one. He spoke to a local confidential informant. Who told him that there was someone he knew that matched the description exactly and this guy lived nearby. And remember like billy said. This town is super small so it didn't take long ide- this redhead as twenty four year old adam brazil. His name was adam raphael very salty or very good people a very good family well respected and i was just shocked all the people that was being accused of such a thing q. Was in as far as i knew. Never been in trouble just would never have occurred to me to think of a person like anna being involved in such a think. It just wasn't it. Was i think of the cops found adam at a friend's house in data when approached. Claimed it on nothing about malcolm's murder or becky's attack and he agreed to let them searches car which coincidentally was gold just like the car. Becky and kirk describes teeing leaving the scene. After becky's attack. The car was adams mothers. It was a gold nineteen ninety-five acura. Adam agreed to turn over the clothes he was wearing the night. Prior and police were inside the vehicle. To their surprise they also found a white baseball cap in jacket another coincidence. The officers tried to start vehicle and it wouldn't start at first so this car had engine trouble which also was right in line with the person looking for someone who was having car trouble who enlisted. Malcolm's help another coincidence. When the officers asked where he was in the night of the murder adam told them that he left work on friday january fifth. He borrowed his mom's car which remember was a gold car for the evening and then spent the night with this friend. He left her at nine fifteen and drove to another friend's house and got that run ten pm. Which is eight minutes after the nine one one call was made by kirk. Adam said that at the time of the attacks were unfolding. He was with a friend having a chat in a church parking lot after that he was on his way to the other friend's house at this point. They snap a picture of atom with the intention of using it in a lineup for becky and kirk so over the past couple months of actually started to work out and i've actually started to have some sore muscles and i have been soothing. My sore muscles with chill wellness. And oh my gosh. It is a game changer. So show wellness started in this really interesting way. 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They also have what i call the art of the essential which are key pieces with endless style potential. They have amazing bodies suits and sweatpants and just tease and leggings. You can mix and match and always feel like you're put to gather so express you this holiday and shop. The best deals on new styles in gifts now in stores or online at express dot com again go checkout express dot com to find a gift for everybody on your list and beckham kirk were shown this lineup which was a photo array of eight different men. Becky identified in brazil as the person who had knocked on. Her door attacked her and killed her brother. Kirk also picked him out of the lineup as well. But here's the thing grundy county authorities didn't record the lineup process on audio or video and this pretty unusual and it's also around this point that becky's stories sort of began to shift in her first account. Becky said that she'd never seen the man who talked her before but a week later her story was that the killer had combined house earlier in the day because he had ran out of gas needed money then he came back later that night. Which is when the attack occurred. And now you have a confidential informant naming adam you have him fitting corruption you have his car fitting the description and yeah. Both of the eye witnesses choosing had out of the lineup and look bad for him. It's no surprise that adam was arrested. At this point. I was shocked that nelson had been killed. Imagine my shock to realize that not only tonight known victim of this horrible crime. I also knew was suspect and he was a little run here. a girl that i not only went to high school with it. We were cheerleader together. High school. so. Here's the broad strokes of the evidence stacked against atom beck kirk picked out of the lineup and he had an identical physical description to what becky kirk described even prior to the lineup process. Adam drove a gold car and he even had a white baseball cap in his car. Just like becky and kirk described. But here's the thing. There was no physical evidence at the scene tying him to the crime as the trial approached. Adam remain confident that he would be found not guilty and this whole thing would be cleared up. Adam's that on bond as he waited for his day in court had all confidence that you know. This is a huge mistake. I was nowhere near melissa rock. When this happened. I had nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with the crime so he had every confidence that he was. You know the truth is gonna come out by. The time of the trial began at. Karen was working as a tv reporter. She covered the trial and she found herself in the strange position of knowing the families on both sides of the case as well as both sides of the courtroom. I just didn't know how to feel about it because there's a are there girl that i've also know for decades and here she is and she's all is out almost every day that hearing corn and they are adamant has is in atom from day one maintained. He had nothing to do with malcolm's murder. Or the attack on becky. He tell amazed that this is even kind of corn and yet here is the prosecutor. And you're laying out a very compelling case against him. Have the eye witness news then have the police officers coming in there. One nine one and detailing why thank found cry and it's just looking worse and worse adam. The prosecution laid out a compelling case. They had the eyewitness evidence. They had the circumstantial evidence in the car. They had the physical description of adam and the baseball hat in the car. And as for motive. They believe the reason adam committed. The vicious assault was for the purpose of because malcolm's wallet was missing and becky had told the police. That eight hundred dollars would have been his wallet at the time of the murder and the speculation was that adam believed that malcolm would either have some pills on him with likely have a fair amount of cash due to a side hustle of selling these pills to people around the town that being said. The police didn't find the wallet and adams possession in his car or at his home. The jury was shown. Horrific crime scene photos depicting malcolm's injuries. I have on on one side. Spending over on on the left on the side of the state here are all of now. He's handling they're grieving and the money murder earn their brother. Their uncle their you know their family member and it was brutal. It's very surreal to look at crime scene photos person. You know you think that you've become somewhat desensitized to you. Know blood and gore. And i'm i am a true crime. I watched documentary. I'm reid fascinated by all things crime. But when you're looking at crime scene photos Person that you've known almost literally erase higher li- lying and leave. That are painted with his son and his go bashed-in it made me home. I'll over the defense attempted to create reasonable doubt by pointing to the fact that becky of what had occurred seem to change in the weeks following the murder. It was then revealed that the lineup conducted by the grundy. County sheriff's department was done completely improperly. When kirk brandon was shown the mugshots on a desk. As grundy county sheriff brent myers was cutting them out. Adams was the very first one that kirk saw in. Immediately he pointed to adam as the perpetrator and testifying experts said that this is one of the worst possible ways to conduct a photo lineup and it had the potential to taint the victims memories. Defense also called adam's friend to the the one that adams said he was talking to in the church parking lot at the time of the murder but the prosecution successfully poked holes in her credibility by tripping her up about the date in which the murder occurred because apparently it was actually her father's birthday so what they did was they said. Is there anything about this day that stood out to you. She's like no not really a defense in the prosecutor. Like it was your father's birthday. How could you not remember that day and like totally discredited her. Which is is fascinating. But you're not necessarily making connections on the stand at the moment. They're like she's thinking you're asking about the murder. You know what. I mean so anyways whether she was telling the truth or not. The jury didn't believe at that point. There were also other witnesses called but the prosecution again. They were ruthless during cross examination and successfully discredited all of them the other one who claimed to have seen him was another best friend of his and the prosecution has no you do anything for your best friend right. He's like yeah. It's like okay god. Yeah y- apparently the defense didn't do him any favors. Yep regardless of whether the defense witnesses were able there was one undeniable problem with the state's case there was no physical evidence connecting adam to the crime. None no fingerprints no dna no blood no hair. No clothing fibers. There was no blood found on that fire extinguisher on the baseball cap on the jacket. Karen was sitting in the courtroom and this eating at her. I gotta be honest thing. That was really bothering me. And it was a big thing. There was no forensic cabinet person or persons who beat mouth them had to have blood all over them. When i said the leaves were painted with his blood. I'm i'm not trying to be. Who wedding by any means everywhere. There was no blood in adams car or his mom's car. Not not a microscopic dot back blood in that car. the witnesses described. The suspect is wearing a white baseball cap. Well that was something else that they had when they took out a car. She process it for evidence. There was a white baseball cap. And i was like wars really. There was nothing cap and and so everything keeps piling up. So i was like could he possibly be capable of this but the prosecution had an answer for this as well. They made a point of saying this car thing. Recently cleaned women will pick up and have to clean up blood just well. They're still going to be a trace in it. Nothing no lot. Not even animals like there must be no blood and kar nuts prosecution made a big deal that too they were like we know that in this day and age everybody wants to see that the moment one side almost fine fingerprints when we find that. Gna somewhere but in many. Act that the circumstantial case is even better because we have to work even harder to put the puzzle pieces together so it was compelling. The defense made a final plea for the jury to find him innocent. They claimed at the timing of atom driving and being in the church. Parking lot is too short to have also killed malcolm and attack becky but prosecutors disagreed and believed the timing worked. No one knew what was going to happen when the jury went to deliberate but only three hours later there was worth that a verdict had been reached. They found out in brazil guilty of murder. He was sentenced to fifty one years in prison. Which meant he wouldn't be eligible for parole until twenty sixty three making him. Eight years old when he'd be released went cold when they came back. Nokia weren't it. I just thought how can this be. How could kid. And he was twenty agree. I'm where around now. Because i think he did it. And how cutty if done it and not leave any trace of himself through. It'll atta maintained. His innocence and his family remained in his corner. He never imagined in his wildest dreams that an adolescent person can be convicted of murder adam. Brazil was sent to river bend. Maximum security prison where he began to service sentence. Normally this is where our story would taper off in debt like so many aspects of this story. We have yet another exception because in the decade following his trip to prison is really where the story erupts into a display of the most mind-blowing constellation of coincidences. We've ever observed in a case on the first degree all of this and more in part to next week an intel van. We wanted to give a huge. Thank you to karen for being our first degree guest. This week she will be with us again next week. If you're listening and you have a story you would like to tell us please. Email us hello at the first degree. Podcast dot com. You can follow us. An instagram at the first degree out alexis linkletter ability jensen at fannie. Join our facebook group. We're talking true. Crime all the time and stick around. Because we're going to kill some time and remember only you can prevent serial killers and keep your friends close. Look happy pastry day. Cinnamon rolls cinnamon rolls happy flake. Crunchy delicious buttery pastry de poppy scary. Bp shoutout to gerard monaco for his design and creating original music for the first degree are producing team. Caitlyn cleveland taylor. Rogers and allen santiago podcast one sources for today's episode include knocks news grundy county herald fox teen w sm dot com usa. Today court documents and as always are frustrated. Guest is always our largest source If your business owner you don't need me to tell you that running a business is tough. But i'm gonna tell you it's really tough. I've owned business since i was in college. And it's hard. But you might be making it harder on yourself. 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Your home and i bet it can be hard work but you know it's easy bundling policies with geico geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home. Go to dot com. Get quote and see how much you could save. It's easy visit. Geico dot com today. That's geico dot com. Hi everyone this is gillian. Court junkie court junkie is a true crime. Podcast that covers court cases and criminal trials using audio clips and interviews with people close to the cases core. Chunky is available on apple podcasts. And podcast one dot com. Anyone can join a cult if you've ever dived headfirst into a new self help program or believe wholeheartedly in a spiritual practice or even just trusted someone with your life. Guess what your justice vulnerable as everyone else. No one is safe. Especially not meghan. I am the most receptacle. We wanted to dispel the myth. That people who join our dom or naive or anyone can be manipulated by narcissist and we should know. We both have been leblanc. And i make an elizabeth and we're real live colts. Arriver join us every week as we talked to other survivors believers experts and more about their experiences and our experiences with cults extreme belief and the abuse of power. You might be not trust me. Trust me is available every wednesday wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to yet. Another episode of killing time now. I don't know what the hell ever happens when we try to set up for episode. It never works first time not the first time. This was another one of those days that took us fifteen minutes to set up. But we're here. I hope you didn't happen crossing my fingers. It doesn't should out. It never does once we get hit the sweet spot enough to reliable. It's only win. We are attempting to give engine going. Do we face issues and we is. This thing called zen caster and it's great except for. We never really know wh how to do it. And we never really do anything different but sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't sometimes it does and we just cross your fingers once it starts working and the only other real issue with it is. I think you've probably noticed that we've cut the banter way down and it's because we can't talk over each other or at like distorts so that's why me jack. Struggle to in unison. The but not that close. If you're you're you're probably like why are they so stupid they together. It's because it compresses. If we talk at the same time in one of us will be cut out way. So do you try to say but not that close different than me. Try to state at the same time. But i think there's a lag on you. Yeah there's a whole to do with that. That's why we can't get that right. We're not Incompetent no but there is no excuse for billy forgetting to say only you can prevent serial killers because he does just somehow forget to do it. Almost every single. There's not a lot on his mind. Got a lotta my plate. So are you. Okay billy so easy. I really would you like to have a little bit of a therapy session or uk. Yeah let's do that right now. That'd be wonderful. Why is bothering you the most rate at this. Oh yeah. let's open that. What is what do you. Th- what keeps you up at night. Oh you really wanna go there wonderful. I don't know could probably okay. So i last episode. We were talking about christmas gifts right. And i think i missed a two very important questions so i want to jump on those before we get into this week's killing time i'm here for it. Okay so and let me know if i'm wrong. If we actually have talked about both of these things. But i don't think that we did. The first question is what is the perfect white elephant gift. I cake fruit cake or a for because that would be one of the one that nobody wants oral. Here's a question is the one that nobody wants to the one that everyone wants. I think it's the one that everyone wants like a drone for like fifteen dollars but now adrenals delightful good expensive gifts. I got jared earmuffs. The drug gave jared last year. I got in a white elephant gift. Exchange and i was the year before i went to the same party and there was a drone that someone else scott and i was like this year i was invited. The party again this year that drone his minded. I read up on how to strategically do this. I got you that makes sense. Jerry lee right up wait wait wait wait. I'm going to stop. Jared has the drone and then i got the drone with going to do with this. And then i gave it away anyway. It was just a challenge. Lex you actually read up on how to work the wipe strategy and you have to kind of way. What order your in win. The number you picked versus it depends on the rule so in this particular exchange. A gift hit only exchanged three times before like maria could steal it three times in a third time. It stayed with the person right. Because so i just kind of like did the math. I like counted the cards of this white elephant exchange. Now yeah i got a drone and then took space in my apartment on my like this. Jared a drone is very good in theory but terrible in practice for sunday that jude's video of him feeding himself a dorito with the drone went viral. so they he ripped off. That was thanks to me. Because i have a connection at barstool sports. I really and that was. It was on his anti you. 'cause he would nevada drone otherwise. We made him famous. Does that was also on his birthday this year and it was a week after everything hit the fan in march after the pandemic and it was the best birthday gift i could have ever given because i was. I was literally like in shock. That i couldn't figure out any gifts so like here. You go the gift of fame. He looked so cute to it was like the ku such a cool move. Yeah if anybody doesn't know what we're talking about this video of this redhead guy feeding himself a dorito with a drone that went viral barstool sports. And that is my boyfriend. Jared thanks to alexis in me for the gift whip. Billy what is your perfect or what do you think a perfect way. Sorry i have a question about this party. Was this like a rich party where these people rich and that was why the gift the one was in part of the gifts will the drone was brought by somebody two years in a row so some people you know just to get their kicks get expensive ones in like there was a crock pot. I brought like a fifteen dollar one from urban outfitters like a weird little thing that projects your phone onto the wall like the the gifts range a candle and that's why everyone wants a drone because there was like three there are few amazon alexis in there The refu- expensive ones. But the rest were like fifteen twenty dollars like you remember the office when michael scott buys the ipad ipod was like an ipod or something like that and it was four hundred dollars and everybody else had like twenty dollars and that everybody's fighting over the ipod shelf. It's like that and do we. Do you know who brings gift. I can't remember or they're on but a lot of people own it in the moment they're like you know that was mine because i'd worry of having the drone interesting what away i will say. My son impressed me more than anything because he was like. I gotta go white elephant party. He went out and he actually literally got a white elephant teapot and he wrapped it and then he he does this thing where he wraps it in a small box and then he wraps the other thing. Small dachshund small boxer. There was like fifteen boxes. Because he's such a pain in the ass and then people had to open up all the boxes and then they ended up with the white elephant. No so we took it very. That's how he rolls. It was like a nesting doll. But yeah exactly a nesting box into an event the one white elephant gift. The i brought once that i ended up buying for myself afterwards because they loved it so much was a pair of blob fish slippers. Lob fish fish like the ugly ones the cute ones induce acute. Not ugly bob fisher like one of my favorite animals and they have blob fish slippers that brought and they were a hit at my white elephant gift party and then i bought myself a pair and they're only like twenty bucks so of reinvited to that. I was invited to. This is for my work back in the day but it it wasn't there. It was not fun but it really inspired me to by myself. Pair of bob fish so i want that free and you deserve that. You work really hard. Thank you Okay the second question related to gifts that i needed to get in and i don't think we talked about this in the last episode. But what is the worst gift that you've ever received man To go first. Yes okay. i don't know if i've talked about this before on this podcast but when i was dating my ex-boyfriend for christmas. He got me a cookbook. Because a woman is supposed to be in the kitchen and then also a golf club because he loves golf too thoughtful of him. What what kind of. Just one golf club. Oh yeah just a single one. I think just to you know. Just let me know. Not not even not even a set of clubs. It'd be one thing that have clubs. He just gives you a golf club. That's a total left there. Yeah oh yeah. It was a single gulf cup. Like you know. We're gonna do the things that i love. So that was the worst gift gift that i've ever gotten. I'm not gonna say who gave me this gift. But i was given some arbonne things which are what is that in. Mlm armonk i was giving many arbonne. Things was the by somebody that worked at argonne. It was by the mother of somebody always romantically involved in with. And that's already going to give it away if you're listening. I'm sorry your mom is so nice. I love your mom is not a dick not a gift. No sweet like i feel bad. I'm not trying to talk shit. I just don't want like mlm's yeah it's not. I'm not the best gift to give in the world's billy to you. I don't even know who you're talking about. I'll have to ask you after they would know if it was maybe like bitches talking about my mom. I'm not just talking about talk personal even those job billy. What's the worst gift you've ever gotten. The best gift was subscription to amway. We asked for where i don't. I don't get worse gifts this. That's not a thing you know. No no every gift is no average cookbook for some group. Girl who doesn't cook and doesn't wanna cook is not a good gift now. I can't honestly. i can't think of a bad gift. I'm sorry not. The spirit of christmas remain can think of the best thing of all. I'd i don't think i do. We wanna know billions best gift. No give us a thirty second explanation of your best gift. When i was ten years old. I really wanted a vcr. So i can tape stuff off of the television especially saturday night. Live and my dad. Got me a fisher for had be cr and i remembered that as my best gift. That's a good gift. That was sweet instinct tyrannize. Thank you okay. I'm not going to dive into our other full idea for killing time. But i have a couple questions and to people who asked questions about true crime and disney movies and they wanted to know billy's thoughts on it. So you ready. Billy shoot okay One of our first. He's asked as billy's obsession with disney. Come from the fact that most disney movies have some sort of true crime component to it and explain. 'cause i don't understand that you know what there's usually some sort of if you think about bambi. There's a crime in the beginning. You know if you think about if the crime client crime to kill deer yes it was. It is no in the disney universe league. It's not illegal. So it's it's it's it's a crime to his family because it's murderer or her the there's there's there's a lot of death not necessarily. It's more golf than it is crime laurie are. It's just like their story arcs. I'll start sort of the same way with a tragedy that like an adversity. But it's not a crime even even finding nemo. It's just like you know the mom dies and that's pretty and then in in toy story. We have no idea what happened to the dad. I can only think that he got chopped up in a bunch of pieces infected the fish. Why do you finding nemo know what because that was another one of the questions too about. There's always death early missing parent or murdered parent. And what do you think that is why the raise people need to be invested. The stakes need to be high enough for you to like empathize or have something resonate with the character. I think that's a and i once went to. It was during dapper day so we were all dressed up. I went to disney and we took Edibles and we were driving riding on the rides and then brought my forthright. I was like this. Entire park is about death. Because i've gone to mr toge. Wild ride was his about death a winnie the pooh would seem if he was about. Death haunted mansion pirates. It's entirely about death. That's all that that park is about of pressing when you really think about it. Yeah well you know what life is about death when it comes down to it because death lasts a little bit more than life doesn't it. I think a lot more. That a nugget of positivity killed enough time speaking of death. Yeah yes okay. Billions had enough. I'm sorry i just find or four other questions but keep -at's right beep beep gin be. Oh my god.

becky malcolm kirk grundy county Becky baseball adam willie day tracy city billy Billy karen Malcolm kirk brandon melissa rock adams Louis vitton rolex cartier twenty five dollars jack vanak Linkletter
Dana Laskowski

The First Degree

58:16 min | 5 months ago

Dana Laskowski

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast wine production now available on apple. Podcasts cast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts degree degree degree i agree i agree. I the first degree supposed to have it in movies not real life and she decides to murder for money. I think she's still be in jail. He murdered somebody like you. Murder somebody in cold blood. That's not just a random robbery. That's not just something that happened you went. There is murdered. Her welcome to the first degree. The true crime podcast. The you might end up on my name. Is jack vanik. I'm sitting far away. From alexis. Linkletter and billie jensen and you know what before we start our episode today. We're gonna do a little shameless self promo right now because on monday. Billy is monday correct. That is correct on monday of next week. So five days from now. Alexis and i are guests on billy's other podcast the murders that's right and entered the murder squad. We sure dad kennedy and it was a it was a wonderful appearance. You're going to learn a lot about a specific serial killer from the northeast and then that's going to lead into the next day wednesday then try balloon. O- is who's day the ninth tuesday. The night is discovery. Plus is premiere of unraveled. Starring alexis linkletter with a special appearance by billy jensen. Oh my gosh we. Yes so before. This is the last episode before unravelled. The tv show comes out. Oh my gosh congratulations thanks. Frank unraveled loveland. Serial killer starring. Billy johnson special guest appearance by alexis will be doing hopefully with very resounding. I don't know. I hope people like it. I don't know where i was going with that but my point is is. We've been working on this really long time. I worked on this for like five years. Everybody passed on it. Never give up on your dreams discovery. Pass on it now. It's the best podcast ever like. Everyone said we don't want to do this discovery. Id pass on it here. We are so people. Say no to your dreams. Just keep pushing so and we still don't know what the measure of success is because it's a brand new streaming service by all we have to say is that sign up for the streaming service. Watch it then do what you will. Because that's how they're going to judge us. But you know what i think. It's i think it's pretty damn awesome so i'm so proud of both of you. I mean alexis. I've seen all the work that you've done for that case over. You know almost half of our friendship. So it's it's so great great to see everything coming together and the fact that you're proud of it and you actually like what you guys are putting out. That says a lot too because a lot of times things get all messed up in the process of putting a lot of hands into the bucket so very view. Everybody download discovery plus watch unraveled. Is it a weekly thing or no. It's just is it all coming out at one. Yeah so it's a. It's a two hour special so it's like a movie really and we have a code discovery plus backlash unraveled. Will get you a week. Free if you just want to try it out And test it out and see what content is available there for you. Go ahead and do that and Yeah it's true because we got really lucky in that we were also producing it n- in addition to hosting it. Because it was like a story that i was living and ultimately billion i ended up living together all long island which is its own should have been. Its own behind the scenes comedy. Show but Jack even the most supportive. I love you so much and you know if you look at the butterfly effects. I i might not have been able to ever make this happen without the first degree and we could never have done the first degree without you and you know. I'm so grateful for your support. And i just love you so much. Thank you for being such a good friend. And i'll start crying if we don't move on so i love you. Oh my gosh well. I'm super proud of you. Guys this is such a monumental week for you. And i wish i would have led with that instead of our appearance on her. Somehow at least. I was involved in that one. No you are involved. You're kris jenner of this whole thing. Wait till the truth comes out in in like an expose novel thirty years on the road. Jack manic is the kris jenner of mian bellies in the first degree injured. It's a whole master situation happening over here. And i'm here for it you. You joke there. So i won't say anymore Well wait what day is it today billy. We totally for the day. I was just going to jump ahead. But billy jensen is going to say. That march third is national. Talk in third person day. I hate this day. alexis lexus. Day in alexis billy's hat. We'll get into hat chat later. Jack hates when people talk and third person. I feel like it's very psychopathic tendency. But what if kuala what about when. It was the summer of george george. Summer of georgia's summer of georgia's different. There's an exception to every rule. And john costanza is always gonna. It's also what if cats and dogs had opposable thumbs day. Just a normal dexterous things they can. They could clinch a doorknob. Twist it then they would. They need us. National cold cuts day. Who doesn't like and get yourself a good sammy. Yes yes in. Florida and alexis had amazing sandwiches at publix. Jeez who is better. I think. I i don't know if it was pretty good. It was it was very good. But it's also i want you to be happy day. Oh yeah that's nice to everybody. Yeah we want everybody to be happy if you're not happy stick around when we have killing time because we talk about billy sadness and how he covers it up with hats but we'll get that later but until then that's enough of that. Let's turn on the lights and turn up your anxiety. Who's this could be you. The setting today's case is puyallup. Washington for references community is about thirty five miles south of seattle. It's home to the washington state fair and also hosts an annual daffodil parade. Floats all daffodil. Themed which takes place during the daffodil season. Which i think is amazing. Golf is also one of the many cities and towns in washington that had that sort of old fashioned theme downtown shopping area and it has a little antique district. Another thing that i love. This place really does sound like a perfect slice of picturesque pacific northwest. Doesn't it when i was younger and still farms and stuff but within the last say fifteen years it's just consecutively on much more populated so now it's kind of just a suburb is still kind of smaller. Towns that's in our first degree and you'll learn more about him and his connection to the story eventually but sorry. You're going to have to be patient for now. We're going to start from the beginning. So today's case takes us back to august thirty first of two thousand one fallen by alicia keys. And i'm real by j. Lo which was such a hit topping the billboard charts movies jeepers creepers which is terrifying and jay and silent bob straight back which is less terrifying. Were playing in the theaters. And it was on the thirty. First of august of two thousand and one that a couple was anxiously waiting for their nanny to arrive to watch their children alison spencer. Her husband employed dana liszkowski to watch their kids and dana was very dependable so it was very very strange when she failed to show up for work that morning zane herself was a mom of nine year. Old triplet girls so she was the type of person who was organized and if she said she was going to be somewhere she was there so after making several failed attempts to reach her rina's employers called the puyallup police to request a welfare check. At dina's home the police arrived at four. One three northeast second street at ten thirty seven. Am they knocked on the door several times but were met with no response after knocking for several more minutes. They tried to find a way to look inside. One officer peered through a front window. He could see a figure lying on the couch so they see someone inside and other wondering. Is this person sleeping. Is this person having a medical emergency or is there something worse going on here and the person on the couch wasn't stirring because they were banging on the door and there were calls for the police so that's concerning they're not waking from any of that. Emt's are called to the scene and the police gain entry to the home by working the way around the perimeter. So they go to the back of the house and they find that a back door is slightly open by about two or three inches so they go in the door they walk inside and once inside they scan for anything that's out of place as they approached this person that's laying on the couch and they soon are able to see that it's a woman and she had a blanket and a pillow on top of her. She was face down and if the police didn't know any better at first glance it looked like this woman was sleeping but they're police and they have instincts and the fact that she hadn't moved or stirred with all that commotion but made them believe that she wasn't sleeping. So we remove the blanket and underneath they discovered a deceased woman who appeared to be in her mid to late thirties and outta glance they see blood around her mouth nose. Her right arm was up so that the right side of her face was resting on her right lower arm and they look and they see that her body seemed to be posed in a rather grotesque an unusual manner. She was wearing a pair of dark elastic waist. Cloth pants and a tan-colored t shirt in a gold chain. she wasn't wearing any underwear or socks. Her shirt was pulled up over her breasts and her pants were pulled down slightly. She had abrasions to both elbows. Visible injury towards chen and there was a one and a half inch mark on her neck. That was really hard to the touch. Shells had bruises on her left upper arm and clavicle area. And the positioning of diana's body alone was all that the police needed to understand that this was not a natural death. More than likely this was a scene of a homicide. The victim was eventually identified as six year old liszkowski and by this point the police had been made aware of the fact that dean had triplets. And to the relief of everyone dina's nine year. Old daughters were not present at the scene of the crime on the heels of such a terrifying discovery. There are a lot of things that needed to happen. First dina's family would need to be notified. Please needed to handle pragmatic aspects of this case. Like were dana's daughters were so they could prevent them from arriving at a house roped off with crime scene tape then the investigation into who could have done. This would need to commence lovers past and present friends family members employers all would need to be looked into then in tandem very meticulous processing of this crime scene would need to take place off the bat. Please observe that. There was no evidence of forced entry at the scene. It was only back door that was left slightly open. That was an indication of anything being amiss. There was blood splatter on the floor on the ceiling. There was a substance that appeared to be blood. The location of the substance would be consistent with cast off from the blood that pulled around in his mouth nose. All the first floor windows of this home were locked and blinds were drawn. The front door was dead bolted and there was a pile of clothes next to dana's body and they were collected as evidence and packaged. There were also impressions on the carpet. That made it seemed as though dana had been moved or dragged about nine inches across the carpet so the police went around the home and they found that several draws in the living room have been pulled open and they've been rifled through but they couldn't tell if anything was missing from the home because dana had just moved in to the house a month ago and there was no one there at that point to identify what was missing but there was one thing what was clearly missing where the keys to daynuss house as well as her wallet which would contain her credit cards and he cashing made have had as well as her driver's license and as far as additional tests that the police conducted the home they dusted for prints. And they did something. That's called super glue fuming. I've never heard about this before. So if you haven't either. I'm going to kind of explain what it is. So the superglue method is a forensic science technique that uses the vapors of superglue to develop latent fingerprints. The fuming is performed a developing chamber using super glue and water which allows the vapors to adhere to the fingerprint making the fingerprint visible. So once is print is visible. You can enhance it by using dyes powders and superglue fuming as a way to make fingerprint semi-permanent so the print can be dusted and tape lifted. And while generally speaking this is a super interesting tidbit of forensic information a new wrinkle in my brain but there weren't any useful prince yielded from these tests conducted. Dina's the while this is all happening. Word of dina's murderer had started to spread and through that process. It became clear to police. Dana had many many people in her life. That loved her. An abundance of personal relationships means you can infer a great deal about dana's character but it also shows that in the context of a murder investigation that this now means a complex and arduous investigation. It's no surprise that dina's family was crushed on learning the news of her murder. It turns out that dana. Who are self was. A talented artist had a father who is notable in the art world in his name. Was bill ross. Not bob ross. To be clear in dana in addition could being committed mother was also caring aunt tour seventeen year old niece. Amanda went to high school right down the street. From dana's new house in this piece of information will paint a picture of what kind of person dana was. Amanda was going through sort of a rocky adolescent phase. so daynuss house became sort of a sanctuary for her. Amanda crash at coolant dana's house when she needed somewhere to retreat to or when she needed advice and dana would even let amanda bring friends over to hang out and occasionally sleep over when needed as well and heads up. Some of the reporting and records referred to amanda as a troubled and actually couldn't find any clarity on this. But i interpret this to mean that she was the rebellious type experimental drugs snuck out with boys dabbled in relatively benign illegal activities. That teens often do but again. This is all speculative. And i don't have clarity on with this. Troubled aspect really meant. Amanda was well liked and popular at school which remember the school is right down the street from the crime scene so it didn't take long for news of dina's murder to spread through the student body. Now here's our first degree ian again. My friend jeff has gone over to amandus aunt's house before during once and i had some in at one time because she drove by and jeff waved at her and said something funny there and she's smiling waved actually the mandates and i think she stayed with her and within the next week all through the school that somebody had murdered somebody parent we. I heard it turned out to be a man. of course. there's all over the news so it was one of those things where it's like being that young. I didn't think of it. I thought it was some random acts until later. Okay so the one. Good thing that i have done in the past year is finally started taking my vitamins. It took me to age thirty three to do this. And the only reason that i'm really doing it is because i've been taking ritual and rituals the multivitamin reimagined and you know a multivitamin should contain key nutrients informs your body can actually use to help fill in the gaps in the diet. No shady extras and rituals delayed. Release capsule designed delivers high quality nutrients including vitamin d. Three and just daily pills and ritual is made traceable you'll always know what nutrients that you're taking and where they come from things to rituals one of a kind visible supply chain and rituals designed with your life. Stage in mind is now available for women. Men and teens and ritual multivitamins are scientifically developed to help support different life stages and ritual makes healthy habits. Easy your multivitamins are delivered to your door. Every month with free shipping always so key nutrients without the bs rituals offering our listeners. Ten percent off during the first three months visit ritual dot com slash first degree to start your ritual today ritual dot com slash first degree. Do you owner wrench your home. Sure you do. And i bet it can be hard work but you know it's easy bundling policies with geico geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home go to geico dot com. Get a quote and see much you could save. Its gyco easy visit. Geico dot com. Today that's geico dot com so the last year has been really tough on literally everybody in the world. There is no arguing that for anybody and you know. Sometimes it gets really overwhelming. But it's amazing. How much better things can feel. You have an unbiased licensed professional there to listen. And that's what. I absolutely love our sponsor talk space so talks faces. A fraction of the cost of in person therapy. So instead of waiting for an appointment you can send unlimited messages to your therapist. Twenty four seven and they'll engage with you daily five days a week so talk has thousands of licensed therapist with years of experience. And over forty specialties including depression. Anxiety substance abuse trauma anger management relationship issues food and eating and so much more and talks space is secure and private using the latest and to end bankrate encryption technology to store information in complying with the lease hippo regulations so as a listener of our podcast and get one hundred dollars off your first month talk space to map to the licensed therapist today go to talks dot com or download the app and make sure to use the code first degree to get one hundred dollars off your first month and show support of the show that's first degree and talks base dot com so meanwhile additional testing had been done at the scene of the crime and like i said they were dusting dana's house for fingerprints and all the prince found at the scene. Were found to be danas with the exception of palm print which could not be linked to dana or anybody in her immediate family. So this is interesting. Who did this palm print belong to. Was it someone significant to the case or someone not related to this murderer at all like maybe a friend of one of her triplet daughters only time would tell daynuss. Autopsy would ultimately reveal several thanks which included an injury dana scalp on the back of her head. She also had bruises up and down each of her arms. Curiously dana also had a bruise on her inner thigh. As was blood in her nasal. Cavities also had abrasions and hemorrhages and the soft net tissue and muscles of her neck as well as a fracture of the cry quite cartilage and tci of the is in face. Fyi petite guy forms in blood is russia. The vessels starving for blood during typically in his fixation in the sudden rush of blood bursts the vessels. So data's matter of death was listed as homicide by strangulation court. Documents revealed that the medical examiner testified that dana physical murderer could have taken quite a long time quote. Considering the victim would struggle causing the offender to lose their grip and have to reestablish once again the fracture of the coit cartilage was also an indication that the person who did this had a great deal of strength it was also worth noting. That facial bruises in the form of any sort of punching or not present on dana. Another thing worth noting is that at the crime scene in the kitchen. There was a set of knives cats in one of those nights blocks so we have to realize that the killer opted not to use those and they opted for strangulation. So what does that. Tell us about or offender so okay. It's around this time that police probably make a general assessment about exactly what they're dealing with here so let's take a look at what we know. So far number one there was no forced entry into the home and while there were items missing. It didn't seem as though robbery would have been the primary motive which brings me to number two dina's matter of death strangulation. Which is very intimate. As far as a way to kill someone and it kind of strays us. Away from the robbery or burglary theory then. Of course there was the fact that dana was pulled over her breasts in the posing and then also the fact that the emmy said this perpetrator would have to be strong. So what are we thinking at this point. If you're a cop investigating this case. I mean i would think immediately to a romantic partner. Somebody that she was involved with when it comes to the posing of her body when it comes to the The how the police or the investigators said that whoever did it was very strong. Obviously going to think of a man immediately Strangulation is so intimate. Like a lot of those things would just immediately point me to somebody that she had been romantically involved with. And the fact that the door was kinda just a jar and the back of her house would mean that. It's somebody she probably knew. Yeah if it strangulation particularly with the amount of of injury that was happening to her neck. It's it. I think they're basically saying that. This wasn't strangulation. Ligature ligature typically is not as intimate as manual strangulation. Still potentially could be intimate. But if you look at Strangulation the other things that you were saying jack. Like body being posed sexual assault. Those kinds of things like boston strangler did that but he didn't know his victims. This seems very very very personal. Well what was interesting in. What i included is the fact that there was no facial bruising so that was a particular note i read usually when it is intimate partner violence. There's there's facial bruising it starts with a punch to the face. Beating the face or a a crescendo face. So that's something that they look for and an thing you know. This is all contradictory. And that's what's so fascinating about it. Is that the killer. Walked past a block full and knives Which means that as far as you know this. This investigation was going i. I pulled this from investigative notes. I didn't make this up. Their thinking was okay. The killer walk past the block knives. This means it wasn't planned. This was a second degree in passions interaction which usually infers a romantic crime of passion. So we're seeing a lot of contradictory variables in this case. So we really don't know anything is is the bottom line and when you're looking at cases all these things they're rabbit holes. They could tell us everything or nothing. So obviously the police have a big job ahead of them. So where do they start. That's always the biggest question in this case. There's a good place to start and that's daynuss nine year old triplet girls first of all. Where were they if not at home well. Police learned that the girls were with their father. Daynuss husband stan who she had been separated from since october of two thousand so little under a year and stan told police that he had met dana in a rock and roll bar twelve years earlier and when they met dana had just separated from a man who was abusive to her and dina's husband described dana person. That would go into a room and immediately should get to know everyone in a really short amount of time and she would become the center of conversation. She was personable. She was friendly. Everybody loved her. Stand also explained that nine years prior they tried to get pregnant and they couldn't they opted for in vitro and then that didn't work either so ultimately they opted to use donor eggs and eventually they had triplets so fast forward to two thousand one standing dana been separated for almost a year and after the separation data had moved in with her brother and then moved to the hamptons apartment complex before ultimately moving into the house where she was ultimately killed right. So danny's ex husband. He had been with their three daughters on a fishing trip. At moses lake which is only two hours away stance that he spoke to dana on the thirtieth the day before her murder for about twenty minutes and he said it was an amicable conversation. When asked stand denied. Having anything to do with the death and stan was armed with more than his word. He claimed that on the night that they presume data had been killed. He'd gone to a gas station before returning to his kids. After that they all went camping the following morning and the police would need to verify stands alibi of course before checking him off the list so the police then spoke to dana in stance triplets and the three girls told police that on the night of dana's murder they weren't left alone by their father at any time to their knowledge and moses lake where the girls were with their father was two hours away from puyallup. So doing the math. While it was possible that stan could have snuck away opportunistically and slipped back before anybody noticed. It was honestly highly unlikely that be able to really pull that off and the triplets also told police that they had never seen any violence between their parents so as test from the scene continued to be processed and alibis. were checked. police. Continue to interview those. That were closest to dana and they spoke with the family that employed dana as the nanny the stain family who raised the alarm for the welfare check when dana failed to show up for work and they had some really interesting information to share with the police when they were questioned so as their nanny. Dana would keep a daily journal of sorts to track. The baby's day to day happenings as a source of records to show the parents and a few months. Before diana's death. Allison the mom noticed that there was a strange entry. One of the days that the baby wasn't daynuss care. Dina had scribbled the named pat which was followed by phone number. And the subject didn't come up at first but allison eventually did astina about the entry and what it meant because it was kind of odd and once asked dana launched into the story about this man named patrick who was routinely harassing her. She had encountered patrick while she was living at the hamptons apartment complex and he had arrived at her home to install her a cable when she moved in. And according to dana. She had told patrick that she wasn't interested in anything romantic with him from the very beginning. But patrick didn't take no for an answer. He continuously call. He left her flowers. He sent her poems and letters to her house which is super creepy. Dina ended the conversation with her boss by telling her quote. If i ever go missing. He's the one all right so hold the phone. This patrick dude seems very suspicious. So who is he where is he. And what is his deal so the police wanted to question this guy like yesterday so they did some digging which revealed that the skies full name was patrick mckeown and he worked for a company called quest. We can only assume that he installed cable. The police pulled phone records and revealed a number of phone calls between dana. And patrick and for the most part dana was on the receiving end of these calls on august thirteenth over two weeks before dina's murder pet called dana four times then in the weeks prior to that he had actually called dana on nine other occasions. So that's a lot of unreturned calls right so in fact the only return call made by dana ever was what was noted in court records that took place on july twenty fifth and they talked for eleven minutes. The only time ever return his calls so alarm bells. Were going off for police. Dina's bosses account in conjunction with the incessant calling was basically enough for police to seek a search warrant to search patrick's home for evidence that could possibly implicate him in this homicide so the search warrant was delivered in executed. And patrick was brought in for questioning and what was really odd to police wants. Patrick arrived the observation about his disposition behaving really strangely. He was defiant. He was arrogant. He seem perturbed. Put out by having to be there. None of these. Things are good signs when detectives are looking at the sky as a possible suspect so the police searched his home. And what did they find. They're going through it and they find a lot of violent letters. That were focused at a woman. Now court records ascribed these writings as quote rather graphic handwritten notes that expressed anger towards a female. So patrick is in front of them at the police station looking really really good for this. But some of the things he saying aren't making a ton of sense and they aren't aligning with the situation to the point the -tective eventually pick up on the confusion and the ask him wait a minute. Why do you think you're here. And so it turns out that when the search warrant was delivered a patrick's house. Patrick can even really read it. He just assumed that this warrant was related to a problem. He was having with someone completely unrelated. To this case it was a problem overs. Like some stolen property. So naturally wants the detectives realize this confusion. They told patrick sit down. Read the warrant and what. Patrick wreath the warrant. He sees the word homicide next to dina's name and he stunned and he asked them has deigned had been killed now after this revelation. Patrick's demeanor softened. He chills out. He apologizes for his conduct and he becomes a lot more cooperative. And just because. Patrick is cooperating. Doesn't exactly mean that. He's no longer a suspect you know. He was stalking her reading these violent writings and they still a lot of questions that patrick needed to shed light on starting with these writings discovered in his house you know. He explained that the letter is weren't aborted dana. There were actually about his wife that he was separating and he wrote them as this way to cope with their divorce and he said that the situation was extremely painful for him to experience and the detectives didn't know that align from one of the letters said quote both of them have in green is but dina had brown eyes but regardless of that the detectives have this no and they put it into evidence so patrick admitted to leaving poems for dana and he admitted to the calls and he said that the two never went on an official date even though he was very interested in her he denied stocking dana and he adamantly denied killing her and he claimed that he had been at work all day the day that she was killed and then he was with his friends at night an airtight alibi that he encouraged the police to check. Patrick ben provided fingerprints and dna. And we'll all of this is useful. It's something. Patrick said that deena shared with him. That really piqued their interest. He told the police about a guy named mike. A guy from canada who dana was dating all right so obviously the police have some work to do in terms of crossing their t.'s. And dotting their is to to possibly check patrick off list but of course they're wondering who is this guy in could he be involved dina's murderer so to answer that question. They tracked him down and once they met mike the police station. They learned that he was a filmmaker who is living in canada and that they'd become romantically involved in october of two thousand. So even though mike lived across the canadian border he and dana would spend weekends with one another. You know they'd been dating for almost a year. And in fact. Mike had spent at dina's house on august twenty eighth only three days. Before diana's murderer he says that on the next day wednesday the twenty ninth. You got up at four. Am and drove back to canada. They had several conversations once he got home on that day. On the twenty ninth and phone records supported this portion of my story. Dan and mike had a conversation. Also on thursday the thirtieth the day after that for seven minutes and he said that he had tried to call dana on the thirtieth after that for the rest of the day but she didn't respond. He made numerous calls. That were met with silence which was unlike her the next morning. He woke up the thirty first. He tried to call her again in. The same thing happened and remember. The thirty first is the day. That dana's body was found all the while mike was calling her and actually when mike couldn't reach her he became so worried that he decided to drive all the way back to washington to check on data in person but fate would not allow mike to reach daynuss house who was actually stopped the border and according to court records. Mike said that he got a ticket at the border for being suspended so he turned around anyone home. Now there's no clarification on what the suspension is in regards to but as far as the investigations concerned. He had a copy of his ticket as proof of this story and he can to try and reach dana as soon as he got home but to no avail eventually tracked down the number of the family. That dana was a four and that is when he learned the news obtained daynuss killing. Mike seemed genuinely crushed by losing dana and he provided everything he said. Here's my fingerprints. Here's my phone records. Here's my dna. He even volunteered to take a polygraph exam. Naturally the police wanted more insight into dina's relationship with mike because there's gotta be more here so they daynuss best friend. Shana hannah is what she's referred to in court records whether that's real fake. Not sure but with. Shana told them next. Would raise a massive red flag for investigators shauna told investigators about a festival called the francophone celebration. But she dana and our friend. John harkin went to during a trip to vancouver british columbia during the second week in july which was just about six weeks prior dina's murder okay so for some context. You heard how dana was eating. Mike who was in canada. This wasn't a long drive right. This was a doable thing. You know jack. Billy relationships from phoenix. Back to la doable. You know a handful of hours. This was one of those situations. It wasn't a fun. Drive was in thirty minutes but it wasn't a ten hour drive. It was an hour's drive where you were able to maintain a relationship across borders so this was dana and shawna going with a friend in vancouver british columbia which is very close to various parts of washington so anyway back to this festival celebration thing. The three friends went to it. They had a great time and then afterwards they went to an after hours bar and continue to drink and have fun. Here's the thing somehow. Even though she had a boyfriend dana ended up going home with john the next morning. John brought dana back to where she and shana were staying. So john and john were friends right. John later tells shana that he endangered ended up having sex. Here's the problem obviously. Dana has this boyfriend mike. Okay imagine a police officer hearing this. This is all like something's going on here right. So dana has a boyfriend. She's cheated on with this guy john. But here's the thing. There's even a bigger problem here. Mike in this guy john. We're best france. So when dana. Talk to sean about this. She told her that. Mike would flip out on her. If he found out that she had cheated on him with his best friend in the last words she spoke about it. Were if i end up dead. You know who did it. I know you didn't hear much from our first degree in in this episode. But we promise it comes into play once. The truth of this case is revealed so be patient because twists and turns in this case are truly unbelievable and it will all make sense sue. Okay well huge. Thank you to e and make sure to catch part two of this story next week. If you're listening out there and you think you have an interesting story to tell you can email us. Hello at the frisk. Repot cast dot com no stories too small or too strange or too weird You can follow some instagram. The first degree out. Alexis linkletter at bill jensen. Jack vanik join our facebook group. We're talking true crime all the time also not about true crime and stick around because we're gonna kill some time remember only you can prevent serial killers and keep your friends close. I ooh that was pretty good. Happy third person day alexis happiest third person day. No own jack. Hates third person. Summer of george is the summer of george. Billy approves shot up to jared monica for sound design and creating original music for the first degree are producing team. Caitlyn cleveland tiller rogers in san diego for podcast. One that will tell you the primary research source for this episode or straight up court documents. No articles available on this. One is always our first story. Guests is always our largest source to owner wrench. Your home sure you do and i bet it can be hard work but you know it's easy bundling policies with geico geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home. Go to geico dot com. Get a quote and see how much you could save. Its geico easy. Visit dot com today. That's geico dot com who is sherry crandall. My mother was kind hearted woman. Why was she brutally murdered inside the maryland hospital where she worked. And how is the killer still on the loose. I am shocked that we haven't found the person i'm washington. Dc crime reporter. paul wagner. Join me as i investigate this coal case with an unforgettable twist murder in a safe place season two of the award winning american nightmare podcast series. A. w. t. o. P. production subscribed today on apple. Podcasts support for this podcast comes from pluto. Tv need an escape drop into pluto. Tv for a world free tv stream hundreds of channels and thousands of movies and shows all free. Yeah free no. Subscriptions no fees imagine twenty four seven channels of narcos. Csi star trek survivor and everything else from hit movies to binge worthy tv shows. The latest news live sports comedy. More what are you waiting for. Download the free pluto tv app for android iphone roku fire tv and start streaming now pluto. Tv drop in watch free. Okay well welcome to another episode of killing time. There's so much going on in our lives right now. We're talking about like a million things before we started the first thing that we have to really bring up is the fact that if billy's audio was super sheni on this podcast it's because his mike is moving around and he's starting he's trying to keep up with it on the swivel that the mic is on. I think it's on the table. No he's not fast enough to keep up with it because head is being weighted down by grocery sat. Let's talk at the mike first and then we'll get to the happy high deserves. Its own conversation all right. So here's the deal like disaster disaster. Okay so i have it. I got this new swivel which is which is great new. Mike stand arm. But i think it's on a table. That is not a little bit cockeyed or crooked. So it's it's just swivelling around. I have not yet mastered it. I will though the sound is going to be perfect. Everyone don't you worry. I mean it's not because you already just went in and out of the mike just saying that one sentence but that's okay you'll figure it out i think but it's always one of us. There's a problem with mike but it's never me. It's i know. I'm glad billy bill. You're going to take the heat off me for a minute. Which shit yeah. It's always nice. He's off of alexis for once right. Well we apologize retired. we've second sorry license. Also the program that we're using it lags are audio so sorry for talking on top of each other. What were you saying. Alexis about the emotional burden of being the butt of the joke. Is that where you're going to say. Let's that it's a heavy burden. It's hard to be the most hated member of the first degree. But then have the who some love me the most but like it's it's you know i'm the most hated member or i want the beginning. I think the tides have turned now. This dog. this is you are alexis. You are like casualty of the the lady gang. We have a kelty. You're the kelsey of the first degree. Because you're polarizing you're very intense but in a good way but that means that the people and how they react to you are going to react in a very intense way now. I have a very mild demeanor. So people react to me mildly. Usually but you will have haters and then you will have spans and no one in between all the wisdom. If you are the yoda the first degree as well. The baby yoda thank you. I love baby. Yoda okay. we're gonna move onto billy's hack because we have to talk about the hat because the hat we were actually arguing about before we started recording and i thought that it needed its own Actual recorded conversation that we can go back to. If we ever want to about billy's hats alexis taken away okay. So i'm going to start with his hat. I saw billy two hours ago in person and his hair looked amazing. Like full great shower. He did his hair. I see him an hour and a half. Or so. And i didn't shower till right before so like it's not like it's days old hair concrete. All of a sudden he looked shower to me. That's true hours later. I saw him at six o'clock. It's seven fifty eight and he comes on his kangol hat like he's from the nineties and he knows how i feel. We've thought about this hat several times. He tried to wear it a lot in long island. And i would i mean about it because it was taunting. He knew how it made me feel. He also knew how it made him feel. He only wore it when it was not feeling his best and i knew that. And he's so so. This is really for him. This is it intervention okay. I have so much tired. He here's what he's hung over. He wears it when he doesn't want to take a shower. He wears it when he sat and wants to hide behind a pair of glasses. This hat is a cry for help. And i'm here to honor back shame. Shame shame that. Billy wears when he's feeling he's he's just like browning and your sorrow of shame are you. Okay jonah. talk. Yes i'm okay. Hey this is the thing so. This isn't the hat that lexus normally talking about. This isn't that hat. I'm wearing sort of like a military style hat right now. April boy hat the paper boy hat. No no no. This is like a cap. See that's normally either on. That's not what i know. I was thinking of the paper so right wearing a hat. Yeah billy is wearing a baseball cap of the one with like the little tiny short brim. Which short brunswick on anybody. But they demonstrate they look all the same they all have the same effect that i know the paper boy attached to the built the top attached to the bill in like a little pouf ball. All right here's a no no no no. I understand structure differences of these hats on billy. They look the same on you no matter what you look the same. It looks like you're wearing to me a kangol hat from the ninety s that vin diesel war. That's what i see. It's about family. Your goal winger hat. Ll cool j. Wore them you're that guy j p. l. colby they but they looked good on l. j. they look on billy. L. j. has a big round qb ball head and billy as hair. What what what's going to happen. I'm gonna go. You really wanna wanna mess with my hats. Yes start worrying about dora and we'll see what you got sick honestly not look. You might not look that bad in fedora billy. A fedora fits your vibe a little bit better than one of these paper boy. Hats of being. Put your mind better. Yeah that's true. Well that's enough of that. Well i just wanted to know what your thought process was putting on the hat and like our do need. The thought process is that my hair is a little. I need to get a haircut before our next shoot. Haven't got a haircut in two months. And it just felt a little unwieldy. When i got home and i was just like i'm just going to throw in the hat and the hat happened to be right there and i threw it on. I wasn't thinking that it would have bug alexis. Yeah because that's the other half now. I realize it's all hats. So i like your beanies but also bill you have such a luscious gorgeous head of hair. When most men around your age have nine. You need to embrace it. Don't wear the hat. don't cover it up. You need to let the hair flip. Mostly out more of again. I literally thought too. I saw it two hours ago and a great hair look great so i struggled to understand this meeting and i wanted you know. It's like i was wondering. Did you get bad news when you got home. Like your hand sinus. That's what i was saying to discuss. When you unpack something. You even admitted that you do it when you're hung over when you're sad when you're tired it's not a sign of your being sad over and not wanting to shower. Those are two things missouri of sadness. That's how drunk not so those things play off each other but right there but you know. I don't think that's a good marketing tool for hats. Or maybe it is. I don't know hats commerce. Your sadness or an obvious call for help this hat. Actually yes nervous for your safety and mental health this everybody's listening from gowran hats. You know give us a call right now. You should be advertising on our show we can. I have some cute gordon hats. They just billy for you looks at. I say well billy you know deep down inside if door with the headphones either. So yes you're just gonna have to have hair like a girl like us and just not wear a hat. You know you can wear headphones with just a sands hat. Which is what you should be doing anyways. This conversation has gone on far. What was the other thing that we wanted to talk about your number out. Pharaoh the allen yes okay so i have only watched one episode of it and there has been one more episodes when this will air Insane mind-blowing also such a well done documentary highly highly. Recommend what are your thoughts lexus. Highly recommend and i feel guilty. Because i knew of the Woody allen suny anecdote right. It was kind of like a veiling anecdote in reference in in pop culture. I sex in the city reference at once. How mia farrow and woody allen across the parker each other and and. She made a joke like soon soon. Me su ni like people normalize this for some reason probably because of avoid allen's powered became like punchline instead of relying on the depths of pain where literally mia farrow found out that woody allen was sleeping with her daughter and like couldn't break up like they were doing a movie together and they had children together in like couldn't do anything about this. And you know it's for those of you know it's pretty common knowledge. But suny is still with woody. Allen and mia farrow lost. Her daughter and in there is a lot of other abuse in this family. That don't think has ever really been talked about on scale like this and then you get your very fascinating. Look at like ronan farrow. Who he was the one who broke the harvey weinstein story. You understand on a much deeper level. His desire to like exposed down. I mean he's the only biological child between mia farrow and woody allen and you know it's it's just a fascinating really well done story and really just shows you how long people in powerful men in hollywood have been getting away with this. This is crazy. Yeah i'm like when that was happening. You'd like you said it was just kind of like a punchline and nobody took child abuse or pedophilia to that extent seriously at all especially in hollywood. It was always just like a ha ha kind of a moment. So i mean it's just insane looking back and how. Just when they're taking excerpts from his book about him talking about dylan her name is dylan. Right yes daughter. Yeah when he was talking about her and stuff. It's just like it was right out there in the open and he was talking about it throughout the entirety of when the situation was happening and not a thing happened it was it's so disgusting and he's so revered in hollywood and still is i mean the same thing with polanski to it's just like it's a these guys were getting a and and harvey weinstein when you know. That was an open open thing. That was going on corey about it. And you know about the harvey weinstein who loved at once invited to a meeting at eleven pm at his hotel room. Don't go that was an open thing with these guys but you know what they were making money and they were making hits so everybody looked the other way if they had five clunkers in a row something might have happened but they were all able to escape. And now you got still works and woody allen. Still going to work. I don't know man. I dunno straight up. Like whole movies of of dylan the daughter describing what's been done to her. I don't think so. 'cause this is literally pedophilia in evidence of it and i heard iron through the grapevine that woody allen did everything could legally from legit standpoint to try to kill this but like every one of his children was on board and affair was on board so they were able to come out that And it was like you can't deny these were home in mia farrow bless your heart filmed everything with the home camera which is crazy and making this even more of a compelling documentary but it's wild. Sorry it was a jacker belly was about to say something to cut you off. I don't know that it didn't get squashed de that happens all the time. We're projects like this get squashed because somebody is powerful enough to make it happen and then you would never see the light of day. So i'm glad that it didn't because it is just such a up story and something that happens all the time especially in hollywood so at least somebody gets to tell their story. Yeah and it it is. It's well done. It's one of those documentaries and no people are always like. Hbo they put things out only a week at a time and they've said that about unraveled like it. You just put it all at once. But it's like this is one of those where i actually googled. When is the next episode out. I i really wanted guess. It comes out on sunday so it was like really you know right after this. That's what i'm going to be watching. Yeah so highly recommend for anybody that needs a new watch. There's only been two episodes so it's really easy to catch up on sure is right. Well i mean. I think we killed enough time. We did with fourteen minutes in thirty six seconds to be exact beep. Beep beep beep sherry. Schreiner was an ordinary woman who convinced thousands to join her doomsday alien internet cult which ultimately resulted in murder suicide and mind control. How does a poor woman with practically nothing inspire mankind to stand up against the strongholds of satan. So how did this midwest mom into a maniacal co-leader find out on the opportunist. A new podcast from cast media wasn't in subscribed to the opportunists on apple podcasts. Or wherever you like to.

dana dina patrick alexis billy jensen billy kris jenner Amanda mike Dina daynuss house jack vanik Linkletter billie jensen alexis linkletter Billy johnson geico geico Jack manic alexis lexus alexis billy
Dana Laskowski, Part 2

The First Degree

58:30 min | 5 months ago

Dana Laskowski, Part 2

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on apple. Podcasts i've one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast art. We've got a little bit different kind of a sponsor for this episode. The jordan harbinger show. Which is a podcast that you need to be listening to. I know that every day. Somebody's listen to this podcast. Listen to this podcast. But you can't be sleeping on this show. So jordan show which apple named one of the best of two thousand eighteen is aimed at making you a better informed more critical thinker. So you can get a sense of how the world actually works and then come to your own conclusions about what's happening even inside your own brain so each episode is a conversation with the different fascinating gas. And when i say. There's something for everybody here. I really mean it in one episode jordan talks hostage negotiator from the fbi who offers techniques on how to get people to like and trust you which is really useful but honestly pretty terrifying at the same time. There's also an episode with a cinematographer who discovered a lost city in the jungle and made one of the most important archaeological finds of the century. He has everything on the show from steve madden to matthew mcconaughey to somebody that just put kyun on so we really love this show and we think you will as well search the jordan harbinger show. That's h. a. r. b. as in boy i n. As in nancy g. r. An apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. First degree degree those two or three. I agree the first degree supposed to happen in movies. Not real life remember. She asked me ever done anything. That was so bad that you can't forgive you. And i was like stolen something or whatever. The case is signal. I mean something that you live with. I didn't know what she men are. Seven seventeen like what do you mean first degree. The true crime podcast. The you might end up on. My name is jacqueline. I'm sitting far away from alexis. Linkletter and billie johnson and this is part two of three part story. So if you haven't listened to last week's episode you need to go back. You need to listen to part one of the dana liszkowski case i and also if you're a binge and you want to listen to all this at one time and you're gonna just need to want me to wait one more week until you really get to bench this case but we're going to jump right into it but we have to know what day it is. I billy today is march tenth and it is international day of awesomeness at resonates. Because i watched something awesome last night. Discovery plus and it was called unraveled long island. Serial killer I smooth you know what it wasn't another opportunity that i totally missed to show you guys out. I'm so i thought about rape before we started recording. And then i forgot again. I haven't seen it yet. You can't say if it's good at this point. No one's me and billy so so you don't have to lie and say it's good until you actually see it. We can talk about it next week. I wasn't gonna lie and say it's good. I was just going to show you out. And i forgot but everybody who has seen it. Tell your friends and post on all of your social media platforms. It's also by the way mareo day. Mario mario mario mareo. she's and being alexis. Were on access. Hollywood hosted by mario lopez fatso. There's another talking about ravel serial killer era. I think it airs in two days. How that interview. Hey mario lopez. It was great. It was wonderful did he. Does he care about your crime. Did he seem interested at all. He seems like the cut type of person who would really like true crime. It's hard to read. Okay it's hard to read with actual like someone like him. It's hard to read was actual interests. Are you know like he's not. He's interested in everything right so who knows he's true. Love's yes he's hard to. It's just a stone stone face you just don't know what's what's hiding underneath it just universal interests and then you can't trust it 'cause it's like i am the same way i'm a friendly person i like. I'm interested in everyone. But i'm not really did you. I mean were you excited just for because i've never been interviewed by mario lopez where you just excited. I mean maybe it would have been for leading. Tv was thinking about it. But i've never met him or hat on the podcast or anything Does it excite you in a saved by the bell reminiscent nostalgia way i do. Love saved by the bell. Yes and i will say that the latte because he worked at extra and crimewatch daily was run by the extra so we were in the same office building and we had. We were always at the christmas parties together. He was very very fun at christmas. Parties woah time. Last time we were dancing to this like yacht rock band and he bought one of the captains hats and was it was a surreal experience. But yeah okay. I like i like somebody who likes to have a good time namedrop or jensen shirts literally talking about the guy. I honestly i was googling something else while he was talking at. Don't even know what the story was. Great i think that's our cue for that being enough of that i was going to get there. You know what that's enough of that so let's turn on the lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be you when we left you last week. We were searching for suspects in the murder of thirty six year. Old dana guskey was found strangled to death on thirty first. Two thousand one dana was found dead in her puyallup home. Her body left in a strange position. And the m remarked that her killer was likely extremely strong at the scene at there was scant and during the preliminary investigation. The police spoke with obvious. Usual suspects her husband. Stan a man named pathak was pursuing dana. Relentlessly stalking her. According to dana. Police also spoke with dita's canadian boyfriend. Mike within a conversation. Please had with dana. Best friend shawna change. The trajectory of their investigation was during shawna's interview. That bomb was dropped on this case because it turns out that six weeks prior to the murder dana had cheated on her boyfriend. Mike i know this is big. Entrust me this isn't even the explosive part. This is deana had actually cheated with a man named john was her boyfriend. Mike's best friend. When dana told sean about this encounter with john the last thing she said was that mike would lose it if he found out followed by quote. If i end up dead you know who did it okay. Before we get too in the weeds with john and mike affair business wanna remind you of things. I you met our first degree in last week and due to the fact that the story required a great deal of setup didn't get to hear from him much but i promise that will change all right so the thinking here is that this love triangle with dana and these two best friends could be linked to her murder. So we're going to recall some of the hypotheses about this case that investigators based on some of the early observation of dna and the crime scene itself. Okay so dana was killed as a result of strangulation and this is a very intimate way to take. Somebody's life so based on this police deduce that the person who killed dana was somebody that was close to her. The police also believe that dina's murder was a crime of passion and this was based on the fact that the killer passive block of knives dina's kitchen and then opted to strangle her instead. So this means that the murder did not seem to be meticulously planned and noting the specifics of dina's injuries. The police believe that the perpetrator would have to be somebody that was extremely strong to have crocked her windpipe and while there were some things that were missing from the scene the belief was that dina's murder was not motivated by robbery and as far as the scene of data's body she had been dragged about nine inches and had been in. This twisted contorted position. Her pajama top had been pulled up over her breasts and her sweatpants have been slightly pulled down and these facts drew other questions you know was the sexually motivated an attempt to degrade or demean really. Anything was possible at this point. Also dina's had was propped up on a pillow and covered with a blanket which tells detectives at the person responsible was kind of taken care of dina away even after her death so this could also possibly be an expression of remorse for me. The most interesting sort of hypothesis they make is whole idea of about it. Not being planned because of the strangulation. Because it's true. It's like if it's first degree murder someone brings a weapon and if it's someone who's like the they passed over a block of knives to strangle them you know it's gotta be like in the heat of some sort of altercation or argument or confrontation and i think that's that's actually a really insightful. In a way. I haven't heard before. Yeah that's interesting. And then also i mean the blanket interesting because isn't it usually when somebody is covered. They know the person who killed them for the most part intimate thing. It's considered that. They're they are showing level of care But you know as far as the idea that this wasn't a first degree bundy didn't bring his own tools for the most part when he would go out he would pick up stuff you know. He picked up the log on the way he you know. So it's not. I understand where they're where they're going with that. Especially when when we get into a couple of other things further on down the road but i think with this saying that it is. It's an interesting case of how the body is laid there because you know While a an attack doesn't necessarily have to be not sexually motivated. If there hasn't been any kind of penetration or closer still on. Why are they just pushed up. Like that. And i have to think that that they swabbed everywhere. They tried to find whatever they could. But this is a head scratcher for them right and this brings you to the next sort of possibility which could be like a framing right which we see a lot of people try to frame it as a different type of crime based on what profiles typically gravitate towards so in this case. The pillow could be a very smart psychopath saying okay like let me let me falsified this care. So the look to someone close to her. You know smart enough criminal will anticipate these sort of analyses by profiler stands by law enforcement. Okay so back to john now. This is the lens the police are looking through as their sizing him up as a suspect. John was a new thread and they were gonna pull on it to see where it might lead them. They track him down. And here's his story. According to him days after he slept with dana she called him an asked him if he was planning on telling mike about their sexual encounter and she was basically inferring that she did not want to tell mike about what happened. John said in response was that he would not to mike about it if it came up and it's worth mentioning by this point. He hadn't told mike about it yet. So few days past and dana called john again and this time to ask him if he was going to a festival in vancouver british columbia and weather together reminder vancouver is not terribly far from puyallup so she went back and forth often. And it's where both mike and john live. John told dana that yes he was going but he refused to go with dana and less she came clean to mike and told him about them sleeping together so john presents. This ultimatum and dana. Says i want to go to this festival at all. So dana wanted to see john but not if it was going to rock the boat with mark. I think this is really interesting because it kind of demonstrates dynamic if you read between the lines right. We're seeing he saying you tell mike who's his best friend so he's willing to blow up the friendship he kind of wants to be with dana was otherwise he would be the scrambling to hide it right. I yeah that's very nightmare nightmare. Oh my gosh nightmare. Constantly living anxiety. I'd sooner die but it does tell us something about the situation we're dealing with. This means that you can infer that. John wanted to be with dana and john knew that mike wanted to be with dana. So there's two men who have feelings for this woman. But i'm again speculating. The bottom line is that we actually don't know exactly how these men were feeling how serious they were about. Dana and whether mike at any certain point suspected that something was going on between his girlfriend dana and his best friend john. But here's what we do know. We know that. John was hiding the affair from mike in. Here's also what we know about crimes of passion. In general there very often fueled by feelings of jealousy but trail and rage in the fact that dana ended up dead in the midst of this. You know very elusive affair in also when we suspect possibly this affair partner. John wanted to be with dana. It really throws red flags up for law enforcement as you can imagine so from where police are standing shirley it would be these revelations that will lead to crack in the case. There's no way that a woman is murdered randomly wall. This emotional turmoil is going on right. So detectives press john about his whereabouts on the day. That dana was killed and he said that he was home alone until four thirty pm on the thirty first and later that afternoon he began running some errands with friends. And he swung by. Mike's place and by this point mike was allegedly already completely freaking out over not being able to reach dana for a few days so obviously the police would need to verify his account of events and see if he was where he said he was that day right and let us remind you about where mike said. He was on the day of dina's murder. He said in fact that he had been freaking out about dana since the twenty ninth so he left his house. He slept on the twenty eighth. The twenty nine th. He got back to vancouver british columbia. He called several times. It could reach our then. The thirtieth came he called several times. Couldn't reach her thirty first came in. That was ultimately the day that data's body was found but on the thirtieth he had actually attempted to drive across the border but he was stopped because he had a suspended license. And they didn't let him drive into the us but detectives when they were investigating. Mike speculated as to whether or not he could have gotten over the border anyway there are ways to plan perfect crimes and they wondered about him that hurt he was controlling and there were several things that kind of threw red flags about him. This affair being one of them and they were doubtful. That may be. I'm sure there were waiting at the files. May and get the proof. They were doubtful of his account at first. But this did eventually checkout so according to court documents. John didn't come clean the mike about the affair. He was having with dana until either the end of september or the beginning of so about a month. After dana's murder now it's pretty shady to sit on that information when your friend's girlfriend has just been killed right pan. I can't even. I absolve myself in case something in casey found out. Not tell you murderer like you. It'd be the first. It's the first call. I would make to be like dude. This is gonna look really bad. And even just for himself thinking about how he's gonna look if somebody if the police start looking into him and he was having this affair with this guy's girlfriend and then never said anything about it and kept it from him for a month. I mean nothing looks shadier. Nothing looks shadier. Do imagine if. Mike had found out from the police about the affair with john. And it's just like yeah. Of course i'm shocked at took him that long but either way let's get back to the investigation so when john ultimately did talk to police according to john e afterwards told the police about this that he told mike about his affair with dana and mike became enraged furious and he threw john out of his house. Mike was crushed and later told police that it was going to take a long time for him. Trust john again normal reaction no violence. Nothing more so crazy is so these guys are patching up their relationship and their friendship. But where are we in terms of the investigation so it was now early in two thousand and two in months had passed since dina's murder and all their leads were really starting to dry up. Dina's family was still devastated. And they're looking for answers. And the police took the time and effort to interview and speak with each of them at length. So they speak to dina sister-in-law. Her name is lori and she'd actually been with dana the day before her murder they had gone shopping and laureate dropped her off at home the evening that dina was likely killed and when asked about the relationship. Laurie explained to them. They're extremely closed. But the dina could quote act like a seventeen year old sometimes and she noted that nothing else seemed really out of the ordinary with dana. The detectives met with dana sister. Debbie ross now. Debbie significant because her daughter is a mandate not dana seventeen year old niece and they were extremely close. Debbie confirmed the closeness of dana and amandus relationship. Dana was the cool aunt. That amanda would hang out with and deb even said that amanda had done some experimenting with her aunt including smoking weed with her. It's not clear based on the documents how debbie felt about this info but that was what was happening and we also know that dana opened her home to her niece. Amandus friends to hang out so this was like the cool place to hang out and so neighborhood. Kids would come because she had such a great relationship with her niece. Debbie said the same thing as laurie. The sister-in-law though but nothing was out of the ordinary with dana. She was her normal loving happy self prior to being killed you know sometimes or most of the time. I don't have the time or energy to cook. Especially when you're thinking about cooking something healthy. And that's when i reach for daily harvest so daily harvests delivers delicious food all built on organic fruits and vegetables. Right to your door and literally takes minutes to prepare. You never have to think twice if the food you're eating is good for you and daily is ready when you are everything freshener freezer until you're ready to enjoy it so you waste less food to for people that are on the go and don't really have time to meal prep and no need to over. 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Since diana's death detectives actually decide to consult the fbi on certain aspects of this case in the hope that they could lend some insight on the type of criminal they could be looking for. Because this is an astonishing case. And that i've never seen so many suspects that are show fruitless. You know i. It's it's really amazing. So it doesn't surprise me that the detectives turned to fbi. Which is the most sophisticated law enforcement agency that we have. But here's the thing. The fbi agents don't discover a ton but they do say that they didn't believe that the murderer could be stan. Who was the husband of dana who she had recently separated from and they looked at the case file and you have to understand that they cleared. Stand right. I did air quotes. But they hadn't officially cleared sedan. Because while stan had an alibi he was on a fishing trip with the triplets their shared triplets at the time of this murder ville location where they were was three hours away so it was drivable so it was possible he could have slipped out of a tent or cabin in gone to do this in gone back. They also found that. Stan had a life insurance policy on dana. So the cops stand snuck out in the middle of the night to commit the perfect crime when the faa looked at the file. They said no. They didn't believe that stan was the type to plan and execute a premeditated murder without bringing murder weapon. You wouldn't do this sort of thing. You wouldn't conspire to leave your sleeping children tent without a certain way of having this done. And i think that's fair. I think just based on human nature if someone's gonna be meticulous and all these other areas they're probably going to be meticulous in this other important area. They also believe that if it had been stand who had killed dana the more than likely would have seen injuries to her face. Punching which is typically what you see in like this rage fueled domestic violence sort of murder where you see an assault. That's intimate but bruises to the face is something they see almost all the time according to them and so the police are sitting with the fbi and they're throwing out literally anything that they can and nothing has worked so far so they're trying to think outside the box and they had an idea. Check the guest book from the mausoleum were dana was laid to rest which was kept at the would lawn abbey mausoleum so in this book. Those who visited daynuss crypt could write entries and express whatever thoughts they may be having about dina at the time. So the investigators go to the mausoleum and they start flipping through this book and they see a whole lot of expressions of sorrow for the loss of dna. There were several entries from dina's boyfriend mike. There were entries from dina sister. Debbie the entries made by diana's niece amanda but there one in particular that really caught their attention this entry had been made on february twenty four. Th of two thousand two and this is almost six months after diana's murderer and amanda row quote thirty seven days sober. It's all for you and me. I just wish that i was a better niece to you. So when the fbi consultants saw this message they said this was definitely an avenue. That -tective could pursue. Because there's no from. Amanda sounded like an expression of remorse. So maybe they needed to take a closer look at amanda or the very least just speak with her again. Police met with amanda this time for much more thorough interview so they learned that amanda had reported as a runaway five times previously so she didn't have a spotless record but she was a kid she was between seventeen and eighteen years old and she did seem to be genuinely crushed about her aunt's murder but is there a possibility based on this insight. They just got from the fbi. That amanda could have done this. When asked amanda described her odd as extremely carry the type of person who put the feelings of others i and she added though that you could never really tell how she felt how dana failed and she kept her own thoughts and feelings very close to the vest admitted that her aunt did smoke weed sometimes but recreationally. It wasn't a big deal and added that she never did any other drugs in amanda that whenever she would run away from home she could call dana as somebody to really lean on and she said that when dana wasn't home she and her friend. Emily would let themselves into her house and they would do laundry and shower and our first degree. ian. Amanda were in the same friend group. When they're in school matters really pretty what is but she hung out with more votes guys. That i knew more than we used to go to raise and stuff like a gary is outgoing. I can't remember that and nice very easy to talk to and she also out with guys that are older. They went the nicest guys. I guess the best way to put it. Is those kind of dangerous if you talked to him. If around certain beat you up or whatever. I didn't know that much about her. I know that she had a rougher. Home-ice amanda was elusive and. The police didn't know what to make of her. They would keep an eye on her but they didn't think that she was the cold blooded killing type but for now. The police talk to amanda about the friends. She would bring over to hang out at donna's house now. Remember dana was the cool out. She kept her house open for the kids and they would come over now. Manda said it was the same group of kids she would hang out with at the park. They were the only ones who have had access and proximity the opportunity to kill off dana and as luck would have it. Our first degree in was one of these kids who hung out at said park when we were kids that hang out at the park the time. There's a huge area where it was a kids pool in the summer but people use skateboard and there's dozens around kinda circle. Skateboarded look a group of people. People call them the park and know that amanda had an aunt that was sometimes kids have done lists amanda and smoked pot Probably drink. But i never heard anything bad about jana. Never about her being wishes or anything a since she was just early kind person helping out or troubled new commander and underway at one point and not having a place to go. It's really scary. So i don't cares about you and provided the com- is is a lifesavers the park rats. Every town has them and most of the time they're harmless. They're just kids. Hang out in a park but the police were becoming more and more curious about this group of teens. Could any of them had the physical strength needed and the motive to kill dana. They asked amanda this very question and she immediately pointed to an acquaintance of hers named lane lane spears emand even claimed that lane had once attacked her after he made sexual advances towards her and that she rejected him manda also said that he had seen scratches on lanes arms. Following tina's death long lane had been at daynuss several times. he was the local. We'd dealer and amanda said. He was very strong. I knew the name lane from people who sold drugs. And i know that she was somebody that guys were able to get like bigger quantities stuff and then they would sell to kids age. That's what i heard about him. There's always drugs involved. There's always there's always guns and stuff so lean spear so. What exactly was disguised delayed so simple background check on spears reveals that he was currently under supervision for conviction of drug manufacturing delivering and possession with intent. He also had charges of having an illegal firearm in his possession. Get this this arrests in these charges. Were brought against lean spears. Only ten days. After dana's death homicide rather not only that what appeared that spears was in jail. It turned out he'd actually escaped so he's on the lam and there were warrants out for his arrest. So obviously if you're a cop in the situation. This is a month old homicide. There are bright red flags waving in the air with this guy being needed to talk to lien spears right now but he literally could been anywhere so luckily they didn't have to wait that long to figure out where he was. Because by the end of february of two thousand and two lanes fears have been caught joy riding on the other side of the country in georgia once he was in custody. Washington law enforcement filed to have him extradited and get this lane. Spirits fought the extradition initially. He was successful. The detectives would have to wait to speak with them. So puyallup law enforcement had their hands tied at least for the time. Being and having spears extradited was going to take awhile so the best thing they could do until they had him in person just to continue to investigate him as a possible suspect. If spears did kill dana maybe. He confided in a close friend. So law enforcement went to the local jail and they met with a guy named mike burrows. Who's friends with leanne. Spears his friends of the manda and pretty much friends with this whole little group. Who used to hang out at dina's house when it came to build a murder case against lane spears. Mike was little help in fact. He said that he knew spears well. And he was not a violent person he just dealt trucks. He'll said that while spears is big e wasn't very strong at all boroughs. Didn't believe spears was capable of hurting anyone and he hadn't heard any rumors about spears killing dana however murrow said that he had heard things through the grapevine and he had a theory of his own about what happened. He said that since the beginning he had an idea of who might have killed dana. It was another one of their friends. That friend's name emily. Emily so who the hell is. Emily person we briefly learned about emily in episode one. Emily lau and burke was amanda seventeen year old best friend and the two girls. Spent a lot of time. At dana's but emily was five foot. Four hundred twenty pounds a tiny tiny girl and we have to remember the medical examiner made it a point to say whoever strangled dana had to be very dare. I say incredibly strong. So the detective hearing this from my boroughs. They're skeptical but burroughs insisted. He tells that. Emily had literally been a weightlifting champion for two years in a row prior to his murder and that she was able to beat several guys in their friend group in arm wrestling and boroughs heard a rumor. That dana had kicked. Emily and demand. Out of dina's house at some point in that pissed emily off so much that afterwards. She went back and killed. Dana and tears were first degree. Really unders the picture in was good friends with. Emily actually met her in seventh grade. I saw it pretty regularly throughout high school junior high emily. I feel when i was friends with their shoes. Nice to meet but she definitely a party person she thing house guys. That were much older than us even younger. She was blonde blue eyes and just to kind of not generic pretty white girl argument friends is kept group of people and emily was always kinda like on the edge. If somebody was smoking pot already smoke mess or something you know and that was a minute about her out. Always kind of foreign to me like hang out really older people. I didn't have the best home wife. But i never was like any crazy criminal activity or hanging out with people that work stealing stuff from people things like that but on the other side to. We're pretty close. You'd always talking to you about things from the guy. She hung out with my brother's friend. So i know she hung out with a lot of bad people but i also like stores friends who there. Because she's always nice to me. And what about. Mike bars is claims that emily was a frequently strong weightlifting champion. I don't see did sports. And she was bill shorter definitely stronger. She had like muscle tone. I don't think she worked out. You'll get in fights and if somebody said something to her like punched in the face like grabbing hair or something like that had a short temper wants to put a shit. I guess kinda group of people she hung out with were like kind of wannabe gangsters selling drugs. Robin people stuff like that. So emily strong but is she a killer. Let's get back to mike burrows. And what he's telling the detectives could there actually be something to this. And if so. What motive could emily possibly have in killing her friends yet. Emily as a suspect was a true plot twists because interestingly pirated this moment lane spears was looking really good as the guy who could have done this but burrow says account was really throwing a wrench in their new direction but luckily for detectives spears and emily had many of the same friends so they could conduct interviews and do some recon on both of them as possible suspects. By this point it had been more than a year of searching daynuss killer and the police had ruled out several suspects dina's husband stand her boyfriend mike her lover john stalker patrick now. They're removing through this friend group and they were able to eliminate lane speier's from the suspect list as well but with each conversation. Another suspect was coming into focus that of the disturbed and troubled psychopath masquerading as a little blonde. Seventeen year old girl. The police had rumors innuendo and hearsay testimony. About emily about amanda and the tidbits of information. They were learning about emily and amandas relationship. Were both fascinating and confusing. But most importantly glaring the learned that there had actually been a rift between. Emily and amanda. After anna's death they learned that once upon a time. There was actually more between amanda and emily than just friendship. Apparently there had been a romantic or sexual relationship between them as well. Vedran kicked out of their hangout. Spot by dana. Was this enough to kill her if it was was the perpetrator emily. Amanda were both of them for those answers. You'll need to hang tight until next week and you will be shocked by the answers as we take through the conclusion of our three part series on the case of denial s-k-y well huge. Thanks to e-e-eh for last week this week and in advance for next week where his connection to this complex case really does come front and center. Now if you're listening out there and you think that you have a story to tell know story is too small you can email us at hello at the first degree. Podcast dot com. Please follow some instagram. We are one hundred followers away. From twenty thousand followed. I fall alexis. Gutter follow bill. Jensen jack vanik. Join our facebook group. We're talking true crime all the time and after this week we gonna be talking Impatient island all the time and stick around. Because we're gonna kill some time and remember you can prevent zero killers and keep your friends close but not that clue sir. Happy my lopez day. Happy mario lopez de. I love your dimples. Maryam he's hot piece. So beefy tube stick. Okay by shout to jared monaco for creating original music and doing all the sound design. We love you dare producing team. Caitlyn cleveland taylor rogers and alan santiago for podcast one very few sources for this episode. They do include court documents ancestry. Dot com nbc news as always are frustrated. Guests is always our largest source owner wrench. Your home do. And i bet it can be hard work. But you know it's easy bundling policies with gyco makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already of so much to do around your home. Go dot com. Get a quote and see how much you could save gyco easy visit. Geico dot com today. That's geico com who was sherry crandall. My mother was kind hearted woman. Why was she brutally murdered inside the maryland hospital where she worked. And how is the killer still on the loose. I am shocked that we haven't found the person i'm washington. Dc crime reporter paul wagner. Join me as investigate this cold case with an unforgettable twist murdered in a safe place season two of the award winning american nightmare podcast series a. Wto t. p. Production subscribed today on apple. Podcasts looking for a killer entertainment deal. What's veteran free tv. Tv is the home for true crime. Lovers watch twenty four seven channels of unsolved mysteries. Cold case files forensic files and csi plus thousands criminally good movies. Tv shows in documentaries all for free no sign ups no fees no contracts ever download the free pluto tv app on any device. Okay well welcome to yet another episode killing time. Do you like that. So beautiful like that was very harmonic. Very gorgeous okay. So for today's upset of killing time we really discussing last week. new show that we are all deciding to watch as a group. It's a show that is has nothing to do with true crime. It is trashy reality tv at its prime and it is show temptation island now. This season of temptation island is the first that all three of us have ever watched. Though i because i know it used to be around in the early two thousands and then had to redo but we just decided to jump in because my mom is always told me. It's the best dating reality show in existence so we jumped in water initial thoughts because we really do want to get all the. I used to watch it because it's fantastic. My initial thoughts are. I actually did watch. I watched the first go around of it. I know you both were in high school or something but yeah so i was watching you know. I cranked it up no. Dvr was watching it when it actually came on. And i remember specifically they had rules in the rules. Were the co. So they didn't seem so the producers didn't seem like they were heartless the couple's couldn't have children so a big thing like yeah so like the kids aren't sitting at home saying what's mommy daddy doing and you know it was a decent show between then and now they really ratcheted up because they've been able to learn from all the other shows they've been able to learn from love island and you know all the trashy tv that has come out so it's a lot better this time around. Have they ever had somebody like they don't have married couples. It's only people that are dating. Right i guess. Ripping apart of marriage is is also a little bit heartless ripping apart of marriage. They they apply to be on the show. They're coming for reason. Like i don't think you can blame producers for coaxing people into putting themselves through this kind of hell like they're masochists. Because what i was going to say about this show is that i would cry every thirty seconds. I would be crying literally. The entire time i would never be able to compartmentalize enough fun. I be thinking about spiralling about whether i was making the right decision whether i was blowing up an amazing thing what they were doing it so not my bag i. It's so not remain unless you were okay. So there is a couple that goes on and their situation. Is this girl. she's younger. I think she's in her early twenty s. She was an athlete and then always dated all these athletes and she thought she was. I think she thought she was really cool for dating all these athletes and now her current boyfriend is kind of this introverted. A little bit quiet probably a really great guy. There really likes sir and his unproblematic and then now she's like i don't think i like it and so i'm gonna island so i can ground with all these other idiots while you're poor. Poor boyfriend is crying. You're just living your life. Yeah because she without soccer player as soon as it happened and then but then she started her regret. She's like maybe i'm the problem. Maybe i'm pushing away. Good thing so it was like this reflection in this forest introspection. That i do think is is the purpose of the show. I think it producers like boring like dua jello shot off his body like this introspection and self actualization isn't what we're here for. We're here for the bad girls club moments right. I did appreciate that. She actually was she. She was having these come to jesus moments as intended. That's why she was going early on. Yeah very early on. But like i have a feeling. Listen when you're that. I've i've done that before. And sometimes you just keep getting roped back into the bags that treat you like shit over and over and over again until you can't take it no more and then you end up with a really perfect partner. But it some ginger prince. If you will a ginger france jared sitting next to me i say haired handsome ginger prints he bluer academy right now but like i don't twenty four is not the age that you wise up. I think she needs another at least five years to be like. Oh i shouldn't continue to keep dating athletes because they're all for the most part like musicians garbage. Well they're also teased. Thirties is when you is up guys. I'm just telling you early. Thirty s when you become the person you're meant to be dirties preachy. Purchase like a. She's dating like a shortstop from the marlins it's not like i don't even marlins exactly what it's the florida baseball. I'm talking about that on the shop girl. There's just like bragging about the athletes that she dated before in the past and it's not like she's not dating lebron she's not dating guys that are making a high. You know seven eight figures. What she's she's dating guys. That are like the shortstop for the marlins the reason she's she's an athlete and that's why and he was over and the casting was like get some pro athletes in here so they got pro athletes in order to tempt her and then just like clockwork. She picked him. Went right there right. You're so simple. You know that would like if they threw. They threw me in with jared and then they threw another musician right and i believe me ginger musician there are many. He's one of the only axl rose. I though we were joking. Her go ahead go ahead now saying we're joking our group chat about like how you have this conversation to with with your partner to be like. We should go on temptation island because it really is. Why would anybody sign up for something like this. Why would you put yourself into this situation at all in less. And i i truly think that the couples that they have on that show i think are real couples and seem to love each other and they all. Do you think that people are taking. Here's the conversation. The conversation is instagram followers. What do i need to do. Okay can we. Please go onto the island. There's even there's a lot of buzz about one of the couples is being completely fake right now. Castle process would be so rigorous. Like i disagree. I don't think they would actually allow that because if there was ever some variety piece or some expose like. You can't do. Fake stuff in billy you. You work in unscripted tv. We take anything so it's like we weren't murderer. We don't work in some jerk offs that are trying to get instagram. Mckeon boss advertise like that like a show like even unscripted shows even trashy dating shows. They have that kind of integrity because it got out it would undermine the chef worth billions of dollars. I don't believe that those fake couples. I believe that the couples like we're not anymore. Let's make the most of this. That's what i think you know like. Hey we're going gonna trail breaking out. We're breaking up amicably. But do we want to go. Try to do this because you couldn't do this. In a contentious break-up could do it in an amicable breakup. Amicable break that's true. Maybe that weight. Which couple did they say was faking it. I don't know i'd have to look it up. It's not my favorite couple. Which is that meat. Head guy. Who i think is great. The mean guy has cheated on his girlfriend to times and she took my girl. What twice like. That's the thing if they've been together eleven years or something crazy or eight years nine years thirteen or something like it's one thing if they're having enough and they're still young and still young. They've been together for like eleven years. But then there's still like in their mid twenty four again you still. You haven't had your your return to saturn. You haven't had your your moment of growth because you're still super young. This is unscreened rant. Some fans of temptation. Aller speculating that thomas and chelsea thomas is the guy with the and chelsea sees the girl with the short brown hair. Yes they saying that they are not a real couple chelsea diving and skiing snowball overeating. But this was the one that i was thinking about. I'm like how what was this conversation because she obviously has some issues with past relationships that she has trust issues and jealousy issues and stuff like that but their thing was he can't go and he's flirting with all these other women in front of her and she can't handle it is but like one who got mad though during the strip. Tease musical chairs thing where he was like. I'm i don't plan to leave single. Like i planned to leave with my girlfriend. Like got pissed at one of the girls in had like a kind of snapped at her and was like. I'm planning to leave with my girlfriend. Mike in that seemed real to me. I know they seem real and also her her lake anxiety about thinking about her partner leaving her cheating on her whatever is palpable. Were watching her. You like. I feel this through the tv screen acting. They were acting real on. Thomas linked in account. He describes himself as a bi-coastal film and television actor and chelsea also says quote. She's a bi-coastal commercial film and television actor actors. Both bicoastal television profile. Seems like a. This seems like somebody made that screenshot up. That's too easy this. This seems like something they decided to pursue after the show and they just change your there to be that like. maybe i'll get the role of a lifetime. That's not really how it works. Chelsea thomas but good luck to you and your acting. Debuts gotten the role of a lifetime after being on a shitty shitty reality tv show justin corini just. That was a singing competition. And now he's the voice of dr pepper. So you just tell he plays. He's the little pepper guy. I don't know if i've ever seen the body of dr pepper. Insular little sweet literally. Just make that up. You really make that. That'll seems like such a ridiculous fabrication number one. It'll dr pepper like that. What is it. What is who is little dr pepper dr pepper. Is it a car. Think is this yes. We see commercial as little sweet. A character used to advertise the diet. Dr pepper soft drink. Wait no so. He's not the voice. He's also the body of dr popular like he's not voicing he's not voicing a cartoon acting it's not like yes that's a that's a role he's playing elusive in the character of. Who could voice dr pepper be and people are putting it together because they loved him a reality show about who. The voice of dr pepper is like the singer. I have no. I have something just impromptu that we could bring up that sort of an unseen. Bane these these drinks bubbly. Have you seen the commercials with michael boob way. Yes it's i mean. How brilliant is that marketing that they him they have in a warehouse changing the wise to ease with the accent over it. Like the accent over it and just like this is so funny like their looks. It's hard. It's hard to put out a i feel like it's hard if you have a good idea and you're trying to work to decide what a commercial will be to actually get it through enough layers of people to accept it because that's so genius and it's so snarky that i can't believe it made it through because it all the things had to align like. He had to be not partnered with any other beverages. I'm sure there's non compete like all. The stars had to ally for that to happen. You know whoever at the ad agencies idea that was is like got promoted from pat off anyways bubbly water's the best cherry flavor. Sorry for the sidebar. It is pretty good. Lacroix is also good. But yeah i don't know. Do we have anything else to add for. Temptation island yeah. If you value your relationship don't go on that show if you cry easily. Don't go not show. I would cry literally the entire time. Even if you were the one that like somehow convinced your partner to go on it you would still i mean. I know that. There's probably a sense of guilt no matter what even if unless you're a psychopath which probably some of these people are definitely narcissistic personality is on there. When we i would see the girls who are there to date guys. I've project all of my insecurities onto all of them. And i'd start spiraling in self loathing in fear and it just looks like hell for anyone. Who's a deeply sensitive feeler thinker. I have a question. I have a question. Okay would it hurt more if you so you on the show with your partner and it's time for them to pick the first date now. Does it hurt more. If they pick a date with somebody that looks. That looks like you or somebody. That is a completely different vibe from you. That's a really good question. I thought her somewhere. I think it sucks more if they look like you because if they go in the on the other end of the spectrum you could be like. They're trying something new placement and then also if they look like you. If you're like alexis and i and you like hit yourself so much all you'll do is compare the things that look the other person that are worse and you're like the current lease ernie's or stunning in my knees are like i don't know what you call it. But it'd be like her hands are a little less sausage than mine. Well that's a given off to work fancy summer gloves on that. Show off to where. Like what about you billy. I would say the same thing. Exactly what alexis said somebody that looked like you because that would seem like it was a replacement nyack twisted. Well everybody go watch temptation island and analyze everything with us. I think that should be a new Conversation on our facebook page we talk about yes all the murders all the murders and then like a temptation. Temptation island chat at the end. All right well we have time sixteen o six. We're trying to catch the bachelor.

dana dina mike amanda john Mike fbi emily spears jordan John apple mario lopez puyallup Emily Debbie alexis nancy g Linkletter
Kelsie Schelling, Part 2

The First Degree

1:10:20 hr | 4 months ago

Kelsie Schelling, Part 2

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The has so many different products that you can try so if you wanna try finish for yourself to get the best wellness and the game at fish dot com and use the code first degree fifteen for fifteen percent off your order. That's fit h. Dot com enter code first degree fifteen at checkout for fifteen percents off your order. Finish a clear mind and clear skin for the win. I agree i agree. I agree i agree. I the first degree are supposed to have it in movies. Not real life. That's your child. Healthy was two months pregnant. And not your child that you just like their life before they even had a shot at having one and killed the mother of your girlfriend and you feel contain you. Don't go to the media and say like you know we need your help. You don't cry you don't you. Don't let it affect your life at all welcomed the first degree that graham podcast that you might end up on my name. Is jack fan committing far away from alexis linkletter and billie johnson. And today as part two of the kelsey shelling story. So if you haven't listened to last week's episode you're going to have zero idea what we're talking about so go back. Listen to part one good for you you can binge it all and then come join us right now but before we jump into the case we gotta talk. About what day is it today. Billy wright well. Today is wednesday march thirty first and it's manatee appreciation day. Oh my gosh. That is my favorite animal world. I love to see i love. They are so huge in fat and gentle. I love them so much. They're just a little and around. I don't know if. I like a manatee or a beluga whale better. But they're both national treasures in my manatees have like wrinkles. They're so cute. i love manatees. They're the sharp as channel. Do you have any other good days or do we leave it at manatee what you know what. No better share. This was the symbol of freedom for a five year old national crayon day. It was nothing like getting that sixty four box of crayola crown. That's when you know your fancy you're not getting the colors you get in the sixty four. No they're just saying go for it right. I wonder if kids still color with crayons. Is that something they do. Do you just have the ipad. They still do that. Go cholera clown. Or something. Kids hiller amenity. That's where you do color clan color. Manatee color all right. Well that's enough of that because we have a really robust episode to get into so we still have our first degree taylor with us. Yes jack was supposed to say. But all taylor still with us all right. Well yeah i was supposed to say that in the first fifteen seconds. But let's turn the lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be Last week we took you through the february fourth. Two thousand thirteen disappearance of year. Old kelsey schilling. Who was last known to be driving two hours to play blow colorado from her apartment in denver. This dr took place only hours after receiving confirmation from her doctor that she was weeks pregnant. The father was her boyfriend. Dante lucas she was driving to pueblo to see him and talk about their whole situation. Suspicion immediately fell on dante who following kelsey appearance had changed his story. Several times dante was subsequently caught on surveillance footage. Moving chelsea's car several times before draining cash out of chelsea's bank account with your debit card and finally abandoning cassie's car at a nearby hospital where it was later discovered by police. Chelsea's family and friends launched social media. Campaigns held vigils turn to the media and conducted foot searches for kelsey noticeably. Absent from each of these searches was dante himself to observers. It was clear that dante was responsible for kelsey disappearance in evidence. Support is guilt to but years would pass before any significant action would be taken kelsey case the question. Here of course is why chelsea's had family were helpless and heartbroken is dante remained free. They were also struggling to get police to take chelsea's case seriously so not only. Did the public police not arrest dante. It seems as though they were putting forth minimal effort into trying to get to the truth as far as why. The police didn't put the adequate resources worth to find kelsey properly investigate dante. Now that answers is going to be complicated. Especially because eight months after kelsey s disappearance to pueblo. Pd held a press conference and announced that they did. In fact believe that kelsey had been met with foul play but authority still hadn't found her remains when kelsey never materialized the fact that they could tangibly proven murder had taken place became their crutch despite the fact that all the other evidence suggested that kelsey was no longer alive and that dante very well had something to do with it deep down i wanted to believe that it was a different situation and You know maybe she just needed to decompress but knowing healthy and how communicative she was with their friends and family. I feel like i knew that she was dead. So the bottom line is that publicly. The playable pd presented a facade. That made it appear as though they very much cared about getting closer for kelsey family. But behind the scenes it was an entirely different story. And meanwhile dante lucas carried on with his life as if nothing ever happened and as time passed it infuriating chelsea's friends and family. Here's our first degree taylor. I think he's emotionless. And i says harder situation. I think that you know. He didn't care in the beginning about she was alive and they were dating. The last real significant efforts made in kelsey case in two thousand thirteen when a canine search was conducted in a remote area of pueblo but while the police investigation lost steam chelsea's family refused to the offered a ten thousand dollar award and then a fifty thousand dollar reward and they hired private investigators to work on chelsea's case themselves shocking every day for nearly five years that he wasn't arrested and this is one of those cases where the more you find out about it the more that losure mind that the police dropped ball this stuff and it's it's literally seconding probably actors from the very beginning the alleged lack of movement and kelsey case persist for years but the private investigators hired by her family vigilant and in two thousand sixteen chelsea's family filed a civil suit against the pueblo. Pd naming a handful of officers. Also in the suit was dante his sarah lucas and additional members of his family. The suit went point by point detailing the pueblo. Pd's alleged wrongdoings in the handling of chelsea's case brace yourself because the accusations are jarring disturbing and perplexing so according to the suit when kelsey went missing in two thousand thirteen. Her family immediately filed a missing persons report for kelsey through the pueblo. Pd but the private. Investigators found that as of february fifth. Two thousand fifteen. There had been no record listed within the pueblo. Pd online records database that kelsey shellings disappearance had been logged as an open investigation assigned with the police department and there was no case number. So we get the hypothetical gray area with chelsea's case not being categorized as a homicide because they didn't have remains but what could their excuse me for the fact that there was no documented case opened on behalf of kelsey at all beyond that the suit alleges that the pueblo police department failed to retrieve items from the denver police department which would have enabled the pueblo. Pd to enter chelsea's dna and tacomas. In fact chelsea's mother learned from an independent source that chelsea's dna needed to be listed into quotas and still hadn't been celtics family had to learn this process and take the necessary steps to obtain a dna profile. Personally for it to be submitted to codeless themselves. Okay so what happened here. Is the denver. Police was given. I believe like a hair brush. Toothbrush something with kelsey. Dna on him and the playbook pd was supposed to pick it up from denver and then extract the dna. Put it in coda. So that if they found remains or if they found a person if they found dna evidence anywhere else they could match to kelsey and that was never done for whatever reason. So you know. How significant is that bill. You're the code guy. That's incredibly significant is putting it into into any database. Even if they put it up into jed match be able to to find that person if her body if her killer had taken her body if we're if we're presupposing that she was killed it taken her body move to another state they find skeletal remains in another state. They're not gonna think you're not gonna put two two together. We have forty to sixty thousand unidentified remains sitting in storage lockers and poppers graves right now and nobody had put you know. A lot of them are for older ones a lot of them for new ones. There's absolutely no reason for this to happened. Yeah it's it's perplexing it is and we're not done so obviously early investigation. Chelsea's family leaned on the media heavily as a resource to get word about kelsey disappearance out to the public and the suit. Alleges that on the heels of one of these press conferences certain members of the pueblo pd interfered tara's even an instance where healthy family decides that they want to have like a meeting. And speak to the media about this and you know for the public's help because they were knocking any help from the police department and when the police warned about the fact that we're family we're gonna hold the press conference the drove over to the lucas resident and cold dante. And sarah. You need to get in front of this and you need to go defend herself. So knowing that he was a person of interest the liberty won over and talk to dante and his mom and said you need to go and defend yourself. Yep this is very hard to understand. But i want to get back to chelsea's car after it was found kelsey family understandably wanted processed for evidence. Well according to the suit a detective named robinson from the pueblo. Pd kelsey parents that chelsea's car had been processed and unfortunately it had been completely wiped clean and there was no evidence recovered now. This statement was repeated several times over the span of months to several of chelsea's family members as well as to the independent investigators hired by chelsea's family. And however when these private investigators started questioning the processing procedures of the playbook pd. The requested process the car independently and they got approval in january of two thousand fourteen. The pi's is requested to meet with detective. Robinson without the presence of chelsea's family at the table police department and it was there that detective robinson confessed that he had lied to kelsey family about the evidence found in chelsea's car so he had stated that they indeed recovered a substance from the trunk of the car that is consistent with dried bodily fluids and they'd also recovered two large palmprints off the front seat headrests of chelsea's car and there was no excuse offered as to why they lied about this stating that quote. The car was wiped clean and no evidence was collected and it's alleged that detective robinson further stated that the evidence was currently being stored in the police department's evidence room and had never been submitted for testing with the crime lab and at the time the suit was filed. This evidence had still not been submitted for analysis. The suit then claimed that this was a deliberate attempt to conceal or destroy physical evidence right. And so here's the kicker so when the independent investigators were finally able to process the car themselves. They recovered three fingerprints from the side visor mirror. They dented undercarriage damage on the passenger side of the car and obtained what appeared to be a human hair from the damaged. They also paid samples of this hard yellowish substance that appeared in several locations about the front of the vehicle and remember it's allege that these findings word addition to what the pueblo pd found in lied about finding alternately. Never tested anyway now. The private investigator goes and looks at kelsey car and he said i found evidence here. So there's no way in house. You guys combed over her car three times and didn't find anything so then but you talk to that. He lied and when he admits that he said well. You know we never win it out. Send it out for processing and we didn't We did destroy something tuchel evidence. He never gave a reason. Why never said like you know over busy or just. Don't think there's enough here in even like the private investigator when they did their switch of the car and they found evidence detective literally refused to take. She wouldn't take it into the police department's possession so originally their worse you other things that they didn't do one of them was chelsea's car like onstar navigation and the detectives refuse to follow up with general motors to get that information. That were bloodstains phone and their of those. This is how that the winward have contacted police about and said hey. We have what he carpet. I know that my tenant is the mother of the suspect and the young girls disappearance and murder and the police refused to off their the landlord after week. Said you know how about it. Cut it out. And i bring it guys. They said don't do that. We wouldn't accept it. There was a tip about a court in a lake that they never went to investigate. And then there were indications from search dogs about evidence in boggs creek so they in the beginning they completely denied having an open homicide investigation. I know that all of taylor's ascertains are shocking. But they're all documented in the civil suit in one more worth mentioning. Is that when the playbook pd did ultimately agree to send surveillance footage out for professional analysis. It was later revealed that the professional was a member of a local outside law enforcement agency in this high tech crimefighting software that was utilized to analyze. The surveillance was photoshop. So there was no enhancement of this imagery. So in the surveillance we're talking about. Is we see a man. Going to pick up chelsea's car from the walmart parking lot and he's not identifiable. He's wearing a hoodie. And then we see a man dropping this carpet a hospital again not identifiable. But this figure is the same height as dante. But you can't see his face so the idea is whoever dropped. His car off is the person who killed kelsey and it's like they didn't give a shit like yeah. We're going to have that surveillance sent. But they didn't like this idea. Be your killer and you don't give a shit this shit. You're testing in the car. Could identify killer. It's it's hard to understand the thought process here with the playbook. Pd say would like to know why things down the way state did to me. It makes no sense. Why a law enforcement official would just not look into this further to me it just. It didn't make any sense at all. It was a range of things like the ball was dropped in every single possible way. And it's not just identifying the face to you know having you can go through and you can identify outfits that they're wearing sneakers that there were you know it's not always the face when you're talking about enhancing video so as we said kelsey family despite the setbacks and obstacles who'd never stopped fighting by now celtics family had offered a ten thousand dollar reward for information about kelsey disappearance and then they up that to fifty thousand the pd has been publicly put on blast for their blunders related to the kelsey shelling investigation and they defended themselves and said that the discontent from the family was due to a lack of communication noting that it wasn't as good as it could have been and then there was another blow that civil case that was brought forth by kelsey family. It was dismissed. Unfortunately the police officers have some sort of immunity complicated legal stuff. But what i got from it. Essentially it was at least you know they have to have this log immunity because otherwise you know in cases where it you know if they could be sued for anything. They wouldn't want to go to work and do their job. They you know. Being fair of being sued or punished include. the judge gave him immunity. And you know healthy family lost and the judge dismissed it. It's like mind boggling. And it makes you so angry because like you see how hard like fox work in cases to solve murders and a devastating gut punch to know that they didn't do that for kelsey. Now it's exhausting to try to put yourself in the shoes of chelsea's family you can't ever come to grips with what they're going through but thankfully a turning point to all of this did come and it was right around two thousand sixteen. That's three years. After chelsea's disappearance that the efforts of her family began to pay off. They got to a certain point where they were trying to get help from other people and eventually the cbi part of your of an investigation takes over after the case is in the hands of the cbi finally some real movement begins to happen agent. Kevin torres was appointed as lead investigator when it when kevin torres from the cpi took over the case. And that's when it really took off. It was a huge relief. And i remember you know talking to my friend else in about it and you know she was like the time is like she was like coming coming. Like you know it's coming together slowly but the first person who's actually tried to investigate the everything in its entirety. Enough a hard thing to do when you're coming in to a case technically cold-case and there's no body and the police didn't didn't even take a buckle swab of like any like being a like they. Didn't you know take any hair for march or hair from my brush her toothbrush so late as two years when the investigation and so detected. Taurus had so much that he needed to do on the it. Was you know from the moment. He took over like she wanted to get justice for kelsey and you know for her family and friends of course and i think that that's what it takes is just somebody who connect with us and like takes it seriously and feels for the family and put himself in their shoes. The see had a plan and step one was digging up the backyard of the home. Donna's his mother. Sarah lucas lived in at the time. Kelsey went missing and by the time the dig happened had moved from this rental property in new tenants had moved in and kevin tourists eventually got a warrant to dig up the home. Not dante was living out when healthy was murdered and there were search dogs that 'cause they're trained to hit on the set of too many composition but at that point all they had on was the senate and the police didn't find anything but keep in mind that was also four years after he murdered her so any evidence you know that was probably in there was destroyed so although the dig at dante's old address was awash. There was much more to be done because it turns out. Dante hadn't exactly kept a low profile. He had been meeting women on the internet and he was just dating around and one woman he had met on. The internet was named jessica and a heads have appeared. Jessica's a very polarizing figure in this whole case and it's unclear why exactly she became involved in motivated to insert herself into this investigation but apparently she had heard of kelsey disappearance and that dante remained a free man so she befriended him on facebook and she later said that her plan was to get close to dante with the hopes of getting him to implicate himself in foul play against kelsey. And here's the thing. Jessica allegedly succeeds and she does get to admit various aspects of chelsea's disappearance. One of the things was admitted to being the one who dropped chelsea's car off at the hospital before it was discovered by police and this should be great information right. It should have been but it was later revealed. That jessica had fallen in love with dante and the relationship had become an intimate one. So this is a complete shit show. The whole thing is really bizarre to me. And it's unclear. Why jessica would put herself in this situation. That was clearly dangerous right. Jessica's accounts in motives were muddled thankfully. They're not the only thing the cbi had to go off of the cbi learned that dante. His mother sarah in three other family members had actually beat up and robbed a thousand dollars from a man weird The cbi decided to jump on this opportunity to arrest dante for this robbery so they could get him off the streets because they really did know and believe that dante was responsible for kelsey disappearance and thankfully they understood the ongoing danger dante posed by allowing him to remain free so interestingly when the did arrest dante he was actually on his way to the airport. With a one way ticket to phoenix. Which is where. Jessica the strange woman. Who inserting herself into this case lived or where her family lived something like that but he was going to seek refuge with her so she sort of flipped and she was a good guy allegedly when she started but flipped and got sucked into dante's little web wants the cbi caught up with dante. They arrested him for this aggravated robbery. Charge and wants. Dante was an interrogation room. They pressed him. They re interrogated him about everything and eventually dante slipped up and he admitted that he in fact was the man who was this identified. Figure in the surveillance footage moving dubbing chelsea's car on the day after she went missing and it was dante's admission that convinced the da that they finally had enough to charge dante with chelsea's murder. Despite the fact that they still hadn't uncovered chelsea's remains dante was arrested on december. First of two thousand seventeen and was charged with first-degree homicide of california showing. I was shocked. Obviously in the way. Because i you know getting up stay in the police do their job anymore and so as much as like i you know we had hoped for and you know i knew that techy toys was working really hard. I still didn't have that faith in law enforcement because for four years it you know there's nothing and so when i found out that there is an arrest warrant You know i was. I was overjoyed. Like when i saw his mug shot and how awful he looked. I'm just disgusted with him and glad that he's where he is. The arrested come four years after kelsey vanished for years a long time for kelsey friends to theorize about what they think happened on the night she went missing. Here's taylor i think he was planning to kill her. I would bet my life on it because she knew that she really wanted that baby and that she was really excited to be a mom. He knew that there was no way. And how that she would terminate pregnancy. I mean he had already set up pictures of the ultrasound. Your her mom to dante's mom even looking back on what we know about that night dante kelsey waiting at walmart for more than an hour before telling her to drive over to his grandma's house and taylor has a theory about that. I think the reason who's taking forever like number one. He was always like late for shit but to take that long and for kelsey. Just be like okay. I'm gonna come to you. Maybe like his. He was like nervous or like still trying to figure out what he was going to do with her. And like you know. Like i think that that also factor into why he didn't need her right there and i also think that like him not really thinking about like the cameras and so maybe he took a long time to where he knew. Kelsey would just go. There need him you know so just complete disregard for her and her son you can go crazy trying to figure out how dante pulled off this plan but law enforcement theorized that kelsey was strangled due to the fact that no murder weapon was ever found and now the donte had actually been indicted for murder and pleaded not guilty. The hope was that some of these burning looming questions would be answered in a courtroom. Dante's arrest happened in two thousand seventeen but we four more years before the trial would commence. It's heartbreaking the amount of waiting kelsey family and friends were forced to indoor. Do honor wrench your home. Do better can be hard work. But you know it's easy bundling policies with geico geico makes it easy to bundle your home owners renters insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home go to geico dot com. Get a quote and see how much you could save. It's geico easier. 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Dante finally went on trial for the first degree murder of kelsey showing on february third of twenty twenty one almost eight years to the day from one kelsey had vanished after driving from denver to playable colorado to see dante and the prosecution had a clear plan. They're gonna prove through taxed cell phone data and surveillance footage that dante was undoubtedly the one that killed kelsey who is two months pregnant and they believed even the movement of kasese cart. The following day also told a story one that ended with dante driving calls his car alone before taking money from her bank account and dumping it and these text exchange. That evening would demonstrate. The dante's actions were planned and that he had made a concerted effort to lure kelsey away from her home to see him and the motive was clear. Dante was clinging to some pipe dream that he was good enough at basketball to play in the nba and a child was not part of those plans for him. Dante's still like thought that he had a chance to go to the nba. Even know like okay on haley you played basketball junior college where anybody can get accepted and he was so narcissistic that like he genuinely believed that he still had a chance. Because the way that it happened and like the way that he coast her down to pueblo. It was sickening and you could tell that it was completely premeditated. The fact that kelsey his body had not been recovered. Didn't rattle the prosecution that there is plenty of evidence to convict without remains but the defensive strategy was to claim that chelsea's disappearance was always just that a disappearance. This is a missing persons case. Without a body there was no possible way to prove that kelsey was even dead. Let alone murdered by dante. The defense pointed to the fact that not only were no remains found but there was also no murder weapon or any other smoking gun evidence. Countless witnesses were called for the prosecution friends of kelsey who detailed the abusive aspects of their relationship. They explained how dante used kelsey for money for her car. He called her. Name's shattering her confidence. And when kelsey would try to move on dante would suck her back in besides all of the text evidence. We've already gone over. Additional texts from dante's phone were presented in court texts that revealed that instead of worrying about where kelsey his unborn baby were in the days after she went missing. Dont was focused on something else. Hearing all of the text messages that had been out. I don't know how long it was after he and murdered her but he in the following day's like what's texting multiple prostitutes getting out. Meet us that hotels. You know all kinds of things like that prosecutors called witness after witness dante. Look while really terrible. There was testimony. About how dante and his family were ripping down. Kelsey is missing persons posters posters. That mentioned nothing about donte by the way. Just that kelsey was missing testimony about how dante story changed over and over again. Testimony about evidence. Cassie's car there was even testimony about dante's mothers possible involvement at one point dante's mother took the stand and detailed how on the same day kelsey vanished. Dante told her that kelsey had miscarried and was no longer pregnant. And here's a tidbit that was shocking. But not necessarily surprising your was testimony detailing about how the pueblo. Pd obtained dante's phone on february fifteenth of two thousand thirteen two days after kelsey went missing but the pueblo pd never asked for access to this for two years until two thousand seventeen in this of course was detective robinson who was named in chelsea's families civil suit. He's the one who testified to this in admitted it was a mistake. So how hard can you actually be investigating this case if you have your lead suspects phone and you never open it or asked to open it for two years. It was actually four years. Yeah and it's like warriors even more. I don't understand it. It's so ridiculous the it's one thing for a police department that may be talking with the da's office and they're saying we don't have a body we there's certainty as we have this question all the time. Some places will will go for a murder conviction. If they don't have a body some of them just want a lot of comes out to the da's office but the fact that and originally i always lean on the da's office for that and then me and alexis ravin conversation was like no. The police really really did a lot of things wrong in this one. This is one of the most glaring examples. I mean how many pieces of pieces of evidence were right in front of their nose and they're like no no thank you. I guess we don't want any of that right. It's actually insane. Yeah and there is speculation. I was pressing taylor on like. Why why would they help dante. Why would they tell dante you know they're having this press conference. Go defend yourself why. There's no there's nothing like tangible. You can really prove but the rumors are is that sarah. Lucas dante's mother's father was in law enforcement. And there's something there. But i don't have any evidence of that either way it seems like it's either. They're incompetent or they're intentionally protecting him in it's hard to discern which but i don't know in the face of all this glaring evidence you know why they would drop the ball so glaringly but we have to admit though the totality of the circumstantial evidence against dante is truly astonishing and all. This testimony is hitting dante's defense really hard but the most shocking perhaps yet to come because prosecutors called an inmate who had shared a cell with dante while he was in jail awaiting trial and apparently these two had developed a friendship and on the stand. This inmate claim that dante said to him. At one point they'll never find kelsey body quote and that's because dante and his mother hid so this jaw-dropping testimony everyone who thought he was guilty believed he disposed or the body in some way but now his mom is being implicated in this crime and they weren't done calling witnesses but there was one problem. A woman who is considered star witness for the prosecution thirty one year old rocks martinez was shot and killed on february. Twenty fifth of twenty twenty one at just last month only days. Before later to testify roxas testimony included details about dante confessed to roxanne that he had in fact killed kelsey and this looks really bad for a number of reasons. The denver pd arrested twenty nine year old emmanuel chandler for roxanne's murder and. They've said that they don't believe the murder is connected to the trial. Several members of roxanne's family have spoken to the media and have given conflicting statements in that some of them. Absolutely believe that roxanne's murder is connected to the prosecution of dante. The investigation into roxanne's murder is still unfolding. Some more info may be available soon either way. It's incredibly tragic. That roxanne has been killed and she was part of this investigation as well right and the fact that roxanne was murdered is horrific and it's tragic and their emotional ripple effect of her murder is felt by her loved ones. And it's awful. I cannot even imagine but the loss of her also meant the loss of her testimony in this case and whatever implications that loss meant for the trial as a whole roxanne was slated to testify about emissions. Dante had made about crime. Now the only testimony to these aspects of this case would be coming from that prison inmate who had shaggy credibility only ever witnessed you. Have that settled yet. He confessed to me that he did. It was in me in prison so in my mind. I'm looks like in some people's is the only credible witness like you know. We're going to testify that she admitted to murdering her is shot dead. And now she can't testify like it. It was nerve racking. It was frustrating. It was like you know. Then my mind is like well. Can they use the testimony that she didn't pre trial and just freaking out and wondering you know was that it was that was the jury needed was to not cheer a witness saying that you know he confessed to her. Was that what he needed to decide. Nope he's not guilty or we can't find guilty roxanne's murder was a catalyst to a lot of sadness confusion and of course speculation because you have to admit that the timing of the senseless loss of life was very convenient. Timing for dante. So questions here did roxanne's murder have anything to do with this. Trial like we said denver. Pd says no. They call it a domestic violence incident. But there's very few details available since his just happened but roxanne's murder in conjunction with cova concerns actually threatened to derail the trial altogether but in kelsey-hayes friends and family who were following the trial. Were blown away by this development. You'd have to be. It's just a very strange plot. Twist to happen in the middle of this trial has really started freaking out. When one of the biggest witnesses for the prosecution was murdered like heart dropping to your stomach you know like racing back and forth sitting back in like disbelief. Like is this going to blow the entire. Jeez her testimony was going to be dante admitted to her that he kelsey kelsey roxanne martinez cousin said i don't have a single doubt in my mind. Her murder was connected to the trial. And then i'd i'd also heard that don joined a gang in prison so then you know my mind goes to wolf. He joined a gang who say that they couldn't have somebody killed. You know someone could order hit and then boom you know it's just it's too. It's too coincidental. And it's not just like she's any witness. Who's going to say. Oh i knew dante you know. This was the woman who was going to say. Don admitted to me that he'd murdered county. They haven't been able to definitively connected though. But i mean we're they're smoking inspires. Luckily the trial was able to continue. Despite the several obstacles that threatened to derail the proceedings testimony continued in the next witness would provide another piece towards the answer of the ever looming question of where is kelsey to employees from the pueblo. Landfill were called to testify and they said that between five pm february fifth five thirty. Am peppery six. An unknown person had damaged a padlock that secured an entrance gate the landfill off of highway. Seventy eight and the damage to the lock occurred while the landfill was closed for the evening it had been hit with a hammer or a metal pipe. After looking at this lock that was tampered with. Landfill officials informed. The police showed them security footage and the short skirt footage actually shows the headlights of a vehicle idling nearby so you may not be able to glean a lot from this alone. Especially since the surveillance. Video was pretty poor-quality and they couldn't really get to the make and model of this car but earlier in the trial. Cellphone experts had testified. The dante's phone had pinged off the tower in the same area as the landfill also where it was actually really close to where dante lived in pueblo. So after the prosecution rested the expectation. Was that the defense would call. Several witnesses says but that's not what happened at all. They didn't call a single witness and this made it clear that they were relying on an acquittal. The fact that this is a homicide case without a body in onlookers had no idea what to make of this one of the big things that to me was the fact that the defense rested immediately. We're all kind of like what the like. We didn't expect that. I'm like freaking out like shaking. Like they're they're just going to try to drag her name through the mud even more. But then when i found out that they rested i was terrified because i thought that means that. They're pretty confident that the prosecution didn't do enough to get a conviction. The prosecution's closing argument reminded the jury that quote all evidence presented at the multi week. Trial showed that dante lucas killed. Kelsey shelling despite her body. Never being found and the defense's closing argument referred to the case against dante as quote the biggest stretch in colorado history. The jury then went out for deliberation and kelsey as friends and family were on pins and needles. There were so much circumstantial evidence that you would also any normal person would be like this guy like. I don't need a body to to tell me that she's dead. I don't need you know a murder. I don't always think tell me that this man is responsible for it but after seeing trends are people who can't get past the fact that there's no physical evidence technically so honestly i was worried is barely slept. You know all of those nights. And i i was so terrified. The jerry would come back and not guilty. I just freaking out only a few hours. The jerry shuffled back into court and had reached a verdict. My heart was racing. I remember. I was sitting on the couch with my dog. I didn't think that the jury would be back that fast and it's scary because when they come back three hours the majority of the time it's not guilty due to covid nineteen restrictions. Taylor was not able to attend the trial and now there was the media. So taylor got her updates from reporter on twitter. Who's covering the trial day to day. And i remember seeing it sounds. He can found guilty of murder healthy. Shouting and i was crying. I'm kinda what i remember. The first person called my mom you know mom. They finally got it. I don't know what would have happened if he was found not guilty. I don't know what happened. I know what. I saw like a friend of counties and like i keep in contact with her mom and i just you know telling them like i'm thinking about you in kelce like you know like i. I don't know how she's gone through every day. I don't know what i would have done. Like as a mother and like the way that she can lose it so crisis league because i would be losing my mind destroying. You know the person's house. Like i would be losing it and i'm i'm just so grateful that our jury because all it took them was three hours to talk and say he did this. He tells me show The now twenty eight year old dante. Lucas was sentenced shortly after the verdict came down. He was given life without the possibility of parole. For the first degree. Murder of kelsey shelling who pregnant with his child. He is serving his sentence at the centennial correctional facility a maximum security facility in canon city colorado. He was transferred to this facility from the playbook county jail where he had been incarcerated for the last four years on the heels of dante's sentencing taylor recalls calling dante with kelsey. I disappeared when they all knew he was responsible but remained free. Just think about the fact. That like here. I am calling this person like saying like toast where she is like. I know you kill there. And just like evil wasser evil after and he has no remorse regard or any of it because when he was sentenced his breathing didn't even say but tiller was relieved that the verdict and about dante being locked up for the rest of his life. I was just like oh overjoyed. But i was also really sad too because you know in my i knew eight years ago with just that healthy was dead. You know. I didn't have any realistic hope. Of course there's always hope. I didn't have the hope like no. She's she's going to be one day even like in my heart that she was gone. Like when you finally see your those words when it's declared court when you know when it's officially stated you know that he he did he killed her And made even more real than it felt for the past eight years dante's now exactly where he belongs. But this story and calls to action and kelsey case are still not over and that's because kelsey family is desperate to give kelsey the proper burial resting place that she deserves throughout the last eight years despite being found guilty dante has refused to speak on the subject dude. Like you've been doing this for eight years. You finally got convicted. Her family and friends are torn up destroyed. Just seated like and he's still can't even like give them the courtesy of saying where she's at. I don't know how it works if after you're found guilty like even though he was already setting. I don't know if the judge could have been like if you tell us where she is. You know then we can give you a chance at parole or whatever. The case may be but i believe that it's out as pure narcissism and like no no guilt and no shame. We told you about the testimony at trial related to that landfill. The belief is that kelsey was likely placed there by dante but we don't have one hundred percent confirmation on that if her body is that the landfill there would be several challenges in finding her at this point. One thing that her mom said was what do we do now. And i don't have kids. I can't fathom the pain of literally screaming for help and nobody's listening. Nobody has any powers listening to you and your daughter and your grandchild are gone and for eight years. You're stuck trying to do this on your own and trying to hire private investigators and you know putting your own money into finding your daughter and it's it's such a big relief but at the same time i'm like well you know i've known this from the beginning and you know she's still not back in you know. She deserves to be laid to rest and not be wherever she is in her final resting place but it is bittersweet and it's also disheartening to know that we still don't know where she's i guess And that you know none of us will ever know what really happened to her. And we entities episode with some parting. Words from taylor chelsea's friend. I don't want people to forget her. And i don't want people to forget what happened to her and i hope that like it's someone who lives in use of relationship like toxic like this like here's this like. I hope that all those women can get out of it before what happened to kelsey happens anybody else to stone ingram because you know like we knew he was gonna happen. We would have done to stop it. Ipod friends get out of relationships. And tell me like. I just always talked about with. What if what happened to kelsey could happen to me for it will huge. Thank you to taylor for being with us for the past two episodes. If you're listening out there and you have a story to help please email us. Hello at the first degree. Podcast dot com. You can follow us. An instrument the first screen at billy jensen add alexis. Link at jack. Vanik join our facebook group. We talking true crime all the time and stick around because we are gonna kill some time and answer some of your questions from facebook. Remember only you can prevent serial killers. Keep your friends close but not but not close. Happy manatee day. Happy crowd t. So cute shoutout to jared monaco for sound design and creating original music for the i agree. Thank you to are producing team. Caitlyn cleveland taylor. Rogers allen santiago for podcast one sources for today's episode include the play blow chieftain news. Au abc news koa news denver channel k devi are and is always our first guest is always our largest source in court documents owner wrench. Your home sure you do. I bet it can be hard work but you know it's easy. Bundling policies with guy makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home. Geico com get a quote and see how much you could save. Its gyco easy visit. Geico dot com today. That's geico dot com one hundred thousand downloads. In a day. Be among the first to hear season. Two of the american nightmare podcast series and incredible true crime case sure actually almost predicted. Her name is a nurse murdered inside her hospital. Dna fingerprints even in eyewitness haven't helped solve this case in twenty three years but now two decades later police say they may finally have their big break on dc crime reporter paul wagner. Join me for season. Two of american nightmare series murder in a safe place a wto p production subscribed today on apple podcasts. All right well welcome to yet another episode of killing time. How you doing. I'm doing great. How are you billie going. I'm doing you know fair with a fair. You do look like you're doing serious dover. I am slotched over. Have a little. Look in your eye behind two pillows. I'm winning two pillows now forced up little beads. Which means i'm doug over weight. Not depressed is that now. Have we come to the conclusion that number one. This full hat thing has become now. I don't know if the hat should be the mascot of the first degree. Or what but it's become a whole thing. We decided that. Now it is just you're hung over. You're wearing the hat. You're it's not sad it's either. I'm sad or i'm hung over. It's one of those two or both usually both usually. It's like the hangs -iety hat. Oh race the too lazy to shower hat or our host So for this episode of killing time. I thought i would go back to our roots where we asked him questions on our facebook group Zoo done that in a very long time rate but can i say one thing that something. That deeply upset me. It's a person that's been brewing for a while so thrilled. That when you google me alexis linkletter. Jared like the second thing that comes up. And i was like people see this. Cosmic connection that me injure jared half for some unbeknownst reason right right then that someone connected these dots for me and our facebook group and said no. It's because people can't tell you when jack apart. So when jack is talking about jared they think it's you in not jared's your boyfriend because it's jack sang it in. They think it's you. And i was like that's terrible. That is not at all what i wanted or or thought i thought i knew how much i love jared separate from you and your relationship with jared and now it's just it's all tarnished This is tarnished. Because i don't think we sound like at all out. I guess you'd go. We both sorta as say a californian accent but you're not from california assume that wouldn't be it maybe so much right session time around each other that now sort of have the same little nuances. That we yeah. We don't we don't have high pitched voices. We both have pretty low voices for ladies so that could be at two But anyway is jared have a relationship outside jack lean. I just wanna make that clear. So i had to defend shit with jared weird about google is. Google is different for everybody. Because some people's google results were coming up differently so must be. They're using an algorithm from all the things that it's collecting from your consciousness than out. What serves you the google machine. Amit if you if you go to google to incognito it should wipe away a lot of that stuff and it should give you the baseline of what they would give everybody because if you just did a bunch of searches for comic books and then did alexis link ladder it might. You might get alexis linkletter comic book type of thing there. I don't even know what that what happens. If that got bit. Weird does now links. I've put comic books. I'm looking at a comic book right. Now that's why i have said cactus. So okay yeah alexis in. I are separate people. What if somebody had listened to the podcasts. That we've it's been just to hold time. That'd be derek. All it is. Billy and just one gal manco billion gallons. It would make sense Before i jump into our questions just been talking before we are recording killing time. We've talked about how we want to Take killing time in may get its own episode. In the weeks we'd have to first degree episodes per week. We'd have your case that's all tied up in a nice little bow and then we'd have killing time where we get stupid and just around for a while but we wanna know we're trying to slash out what our ideas would be right so we have a few ideas but i think this would be a great time to get some I e generated input. About what those ideas could be asking only. I'd let reloaded guys wanna hear on killing time each we add. Do you want us do want us to talk about how weird cranky says. Do you want us to not talk about crime at all. Do you want us to answer questions from the first. There's so many different ways we can go about it that I think it'd be great to get some input from oliver live li-listeners i'm here for it. Give us the okay. So i'm going to jump into some questions that we have gotten over the months. These are older but there are still questions. So are you ready ready. Okay if you could live in any fictional world what would you to live in candy land. That's an interesting one. But you deal the mud. Like chocolate mud swamp peppermint forest. Yeah i try to do better if you just took some acid that you could you could transport yourself into a candy land. Dude hell hell sure but no candy land. Monopoly sounds fun became better. I love the. You're going for a board game monopoly. Monopoly actually is a real place. So is it. Yeah where's that that is not a real place yes it is. All the streets are atlantic city. I like pass. Go get two hundred dollars. I wanna scotty. I wanna be a little scottie. Dog or a little thin mon mike. That is not a real moist. Billy saying the actual the squares are real places. I never knew that which is probably really embarrassing. I did not put that together at all. Where would you live. Billy doesn't have to be a board game. I don't lexus. Went straight to the board games on my own scrabble. Scrabble was great scrabble scrabble. Right but doing it right. I don't even go here i don't i don't know man. I mean maybe not star wars ninety real pain in the ass. Seems like a pain in the ass to harry potter. But we all know harry. Potter's real we just haven't seen down sort of underneath the surface. But that was nine harry potter just for the food No but butter beer is not good. You know i had really high hopes schroeder beer and let me down because one. it's not alcoholic. And i was expecting more you got. You can ask spiked one though. What are they speak right univer. I think it's man and you can ask for fireball whisky. They've got a whole secret in the in the harry potter bar. And you can. You can ask for all the secret drinks. I think we were going to go on a first degree field trip to water worlds right before our co ed we were in star wars trip or star wars land into before disneyland turned into a mass vaccination site. Yeah maybe next year they are they are. They are going to be opening up in a couple of months. I i heard that well. Yeah we'll make our field trips. Harry potter harry potter would be. That'd be pretty cool. Let that i would like mine. Would be harry potter land or i would like to live on the lost island. But then he he'll gary everyone dies. I know but it just is so good. You know what under the jetsons yes. Jetsons will be tight for that. Mid century modern kind of kooky architecture love. Yeah jack that picture. I sent you this morning with the addresses lulu. That's like your jetsons vibe. Yeah i would thrive in jetsons themed architectural house like god. Yes okay question. What is your biggest to pet Alexis knows mine. will you know mine. I wonder why you know each other's biggest happening because you're obviously my. My biggest pet peeve is when people don't give context to what they're saying we're just goes he did blah blah blah and like. Who who are you talking about. Like billy will do that out of nowhere. Like i'm like he's like you know what he he's really this and just like who would literally till person five seconds. You know we weren't any people without saying who it is or what he's talking about and i'm always like people say here she randomly. I'm just give me some. explain what you're talking about. That's probably one of mine other than people being mean. Unintended that when somebody when you're in a conversation about something and the conversation has changed in some somebody circles back to the conversation that has been long since washed. That's about contact no context. That's exactly back wouldn't nobody has agreed to circle back that i hate that because you know what i love jack you know this about me. I need to close a close station with a submarine. Like like okay cool. So we're saying this in going forward we're going to do this in closing argument than the conversations. Not never once we have it. I'm not talking about that anymore. Yeah that's the thing is that. I don't think i think i'm keeping up the conversations. They haven't been closed yet. And i'm just trying to make sure that we get to that summary point. What's your biggest pet peeve billion. He doesn't he doesn't like to do anything twice. Yes is out. It is okay for things that you've done twice that you weren't happy about. Let's say like hyphen that usually honestly you're you're you're right and entire essay and then it gets deleted and then you have to do it again. I think that's everyone's pet peeve though. That's why doing that. No that's that's the extreme but then it goes to. It happens a lot where it's oh. We have to do that again. 'cause the lighting wasn't right or this or that filming television but there are certain things that are you can tell that are potentially human error. That did not have to be done twice. That will add another day to your life that you get back name. That's my pet peeve. Name example in an everyman's situation not unsealing eighteen. You shall Scituate okay Example in a what do you consider every man somebody that's not on. Tv show is a job. We'll gimme gimme. Gimme job though your job is you are as a data input her but then i would know what that is doing. Something twice would be a mailman a mailman. Okay you deliver all the the mail packages and then all the packages are eaten by wild wolves. And then you have to deliver those same mail packages again. That doesn't seem like it would have. Yeah but okay. Well you don't know about that. Myers my biggest pet peeves. And i don't know if i've talked about this the podcast but it's when people told me about their dreams i hate it more than anything because a dream is always so good in your own head but then when you try to describe it to somebody and it's all disjointed dopp and makes no sense any don't have you're trying to like explain it with excitement in this fervor and nobody understands it because it's in your own little world heyday. I don't don't tell us your dreams we don't wanna know. We have our own to decipher. You'll do the ocean. But then i ended up even worse. And you're there but didn't you like Like half of a sneak. That's how dreams end up sounding to like. I don't understand the point of this story. i'll dream of. It's super easy. Like i had one. I had one the other day where i was like. Yeah me and caitlyn cleveland. We're in a plane crash together. Join caitlin caitlin does producing on our podcast. Sorry caitlyn. I didn't want to tell you this but like that dream all share. Because it's like it's easy to raise you know you don't go nuts details and you don't into the storyline of the dream just if you can explain the dream in one sentence then that's great but that's okay all right. I have a question about your dream. Did die in the dream because i'm always interested when people get hurt or die if they actually die in the dream or they wake up from the no. I never wake up from it. I didn't i don't remember the impact. I just remember like the the descent cheese scary descent. But i didn't remember the impact in those me. And i looked at it. Just means you're you feel like you're losing control over something and i think at that particular point. I think the associated with caitlin is like she at this podcast along with jerry. You know what i mean. And i was like maybe down i have too much on my plate is how i think i interpreted it like where i was freaking out about my responsibilities but sorry caitlyn. You're fine we're fine. we're all fine. it's going to be okay mr vying. Toluene cry that's my biggest is my biggest fear in general and to dream that move off is. Do you have a recurring nightmare. Jack jared dies. Jared come tell your recurring nightmare. It's terrifying so my recurring dream is i'm in the forest in. It's really kind of like foggy in. It's really quiet dark and there's really sick trees and there's headlights in the distance in a school bus kind of slowly rolls up to me in every single person that i know like all my friends are on the bus. And they're all dead and then they start to wake up like zombie style and like walk off the bus towards me. And then i reach on my back and shotgun and then i pull it out and then i wake up every time. Okay let me ask you a question on this. How when did you start. Having this dream. I was probably my early. Twenty s early twenties china. the best runs. Okay all your childhood best friends. You started watching walking dead. He started playing video games. Yep yeah i mean. Then i'll make sense is just i've had it like probably five times. Lao dookie school bus creeps through the. Are you going to put this into any type of art. Ooh maybe already have subconsciously. I don't know. But i mean i always make up in the cold sweat every single time. It's so terrifying. Feel so real. It's the worst recurring dream that you could ever have. I think in my opinion everybody that you diaw live off all right. While i told him i said that my biggest pet peeve is telling dreams and then here we are we a with a dream telling sorry are has no bounds. Yeah doesn't well. We're running a little long Seventeen minutes time of death bp.

kelsey dante chelsea pueblo taylor cbi Dante roxanne Sarah lucas denver dante lucas robinson police department alexis linkletter jack fan billie johnson kelsey schilling Dante lucas
Westley Young

The First Degree

1:03:48 hr | 9 months ago

Westley Young

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on apple. Podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else. You get your podcast. If you know the first thing about me you would know that. I am an excellent gift. Giver i am the queen a personalized unique. One of a kind sometimes. Diy gifts and one of my favorite places to make these amazing gifts is vistaprint so vistaprint specializes in on re giftable gifts gifts. That are so unique and personal that you wouldn't dream of passing them on and they have won off gifts like custom. Mugs and canvas prints photo books and wall calendars. And they're the kind of thoughtful gift that you really can't wait to give because they spoke so much joy and at vistaprint you can also create your own personalized holiday cards adding your photos and messages in adding special finishing touches like embossed foil and scalloped edges. So rather than giving an unoriginal gift. This holiday make it unr- giftable with custom gift from vistaprint. So you can go to vistaprint dot com slash first degree to get started on your unreal. Giftable gift the holidays are coming up. So don't miss your chance to get an honorary giftable. Gift get started today at vistaprint dot com slash first degree again that's vistaprint dot com slash first degree degree degree degree. I the first degree supposed to have it in movies. Not one of the first things he did after he got out of jail was to write a my space post about how the entire time that he was incarcerated. He had been thinking about how he wanted to. I'm trying to remember exactly how he put it incapacitate and dismember a human being. Welcome to the first degree. The true crime podcast that you might end up on my name. Is jack vinik. I'm sitting far away from lexus. Link gutter even farther away from billy johnson and this might be our. I don't know hundred something episode. And i just forgot the intro. Whoops cova times. It's hard to remember anything it happens. It happens covert brain. Billy what is today. You know what this is a day after my own heart. It's happy mickey mouse day. It is yes. Oh i looked up the days. But i must have been looking up different day because looking at the wrong day. Mickey mouse day. He this steamboat. willie steamboat. Willie actually came out. Which is his silver screen. Debut on november eighteenth nineteen twenty eight. How for almost go. Watch them steamboat. Billy yes roma's at the hundred or hundred year and a mickey mickey was great steamboat. Willie you just call that steamboat. Billy which is a steamboat. Willie i can play this okay. Let's see if everybody says the first one. Is you go. Watch them steamboat. Billy i'll play back for you and i'll play it five times on the show. He wants to be so bad. I really well. I mean you could be seen willie. Has anybody ever called you willie. Mickey mouse was supposed to originally be called mortar ver- and house. Yes mortimer mouse. And then his wife was like no. That's not good. Mickey lady disney. They're always lives are always the brains behind these operations. Were wiser as the brains. Yeah i do wonder what other things that she helped him with. That he thought were was such a great idea and usually honey mortar. Yeah yeah exactly yeah. Are there any other. good days. Billy you know what there's one day and it kind of fits in with mickey mouse day. It's national princess day. And i will say that i do a podcast every week with two princesses and i can't. I am so grateful for that. You can is it princess in like a good connotation or a bad connotation because i could go either not answer that mcqueen's pleading the fed. I can just assume what the answer is. Yes exactly all right. That's enough of that. So let's analyze and turn up during zayed him because this could be Whenever we're dealing with a murder case where the type is one person killing the other. We have to remind ourselves the were always just learning one single side of the story the murderers side because the other person who is there a new. The truth is gone. We consider news headlines. We are opening arguments presented by the defense and we take those things into account but today's episode will be reminder that we should take everything we learn about any given case with a serious grain of salt. Because if you're capable of lying capable of disparaging the memory of your victim. It begs today's question. Who on earth would trust the word of a murderer. Today's case takes us back to july. Second of two thousand six songs promiscuous by nelly furtado featuring timbaland in the world by brad paisley and unfaithful by rana were topping the charts and movies like you mean debris miami vice and john tucker must die. Were playing in theaters. The setting for today's cases. Stevens point wisconsin. The city is centrally located in the state along the wisconsin river and it's mostly a suburban area with a variety of single and two story homes. It's almost like a regular town but it's big enough to be considered a city and its city. Limits are surrounded by woods and farms. Today's case starts with a call between two friends on the evening of july twenty fifth. Two thousand six when her first degree abbey was chatting on the phone with one of her best friends. Eighteen year old wesley. Young actually talk to us on the phone before he went to the party. I had just moved away and he was going to come see me where i was nineteen days after and so we're like all excited and he said well i'm going to go to this party and whatever and i will talk to you later and k love you love you. Some context here abbey was born and raised in stevens point wisconsin but she just moved to atlanta weeks prior to this conversation that she was having with west non this call. He told her that he was about to head out to a party. So they say their goodbyes. As west is heading out. The door abbe carries on with her night at the time. I was doing a lot of work online. I was working at night. And i was kind of hopping between what i was doing and my space and i was taking a break and kind of rolling through my space and one of my friends had posted a thing. Something about jazz killing west. There were no last names or anything. I was hoping that you know like oh. It's something else. Somebody's joking it's a different person. Disa- be terrifying thing to see online whether someone was joking or not and immediately. Abby has the sinking feeling that this post is about her wes her best friend that you just spoke to only hours earlier. I started calling him. And he didn't answer and i was panicking and i don't i don't remember much. Put yourself in abbey's position. She seen this troubling my space posts online and she's beyond concerned and she's having no luck reaching west on the phone so she does any logical and scared friend would do i remember calling the police and saying hey we think something really bad has happened everything is a blur because i was so panicked and just i knew that something had happened. So abby is frantic. she's in atlanta. She feels helpless. All she can do is call around the police. Try to figure out what's happened to her best friend and by now even if she wants to try to look towards hope she can't because her gut is telling her something is terribly wrong. Meanwhile rumors about what had happened to west. Where circulating online mostly on my space friends are posting messages on west. This page referencing. What seemed to be his death. And some of the posts read. I hope you party as hard where you are now as you did when you are here now the unread. I'm gonna miss the great times but sometime we'll party again. Then i got a phone call because they are looking for somebody to identify his body and then feeling so powerless. because i'm in atlanta. I can't just hop in the car and go back to wisconsin and identify a body. It just got worse. Because i spoke on the phone with the corner and he kind of described the wounds because of course i was like tell me what happened and he did i give them out a lot of credit because he could have said no but he told me what happened and what the door and everything and that was awful. That was worse. Knowing was worse one of our friends for dad ended up identifying him that i can't imagine what that was like because he's ones were so extensive and the state of his body was terrible july. This is the middle of summer. He'd been laying in a ditch. Abby is being asked to identify her friends body the my space post abby sinking feeling. She was right. It was true. The friend that she had spoken to just hours earlier was gone. And the initial mice based post that abby had seen had mentioned a person named jeff as his killer and that was also true. The culprit was a twenty two year old. Man named jeff kizer whiskey. And i'm gonna just hop in here real quick. We don't care for mispronouncing the name. Because he's a murderer chem cell. Usually we get dragged from his pronunciations. But i didn't bother to look up so heads up on that listeners. Inks and the story. You're about to hear of what happened to west would perplex horrify and really angry. You the following sequence of events piece together with information gleaned from court documents news reports an obvious first hand experience. Here we go the morning. After the chaos of all this mice base activities twenty two year old jeff walked into the stevens point police department and ask to speak with a police officer was then that he made a startling admission. He said he'd killed a quote unquote friend of his. The police understandably were shocked were florida by this utterance. What was he talking about. They had questions first off. Who had been killed. Where had they been killed in. Why was person killed to answer. The first question was easy. He killed his friend. Eighteen year old. Wesley young to answer where he agreed to take them for the question as to why they answer would be much much murkier injustice to make a full statement he sat down and told them his version of events and he started from the beginning at the party. He said that he and wesley were drinking heavily. The previous evening before during and after the party that they'd both attended. He said that through the course of the evening he drinks so much that he blocked out so his details were fuzzy and he told them about the party but he didn't remember much about being at this party. And who knows whether that's true or not but as the story is told jeff showed up to the party with west so they went to a house and jess and west and another girl. I don't really know who the other girl was. It might have been just girlfriend. I'm unsure and there was drinking and by all accounts. Everybody there got really drunk. I know that jeff showed up to the party already armed. He had a huge knife with him. That was like taking away now. Abby hit other friends at this party which is have the details of this evening that were left out by jeff managed to come to light after the fact. So this party everyone. There apparently got very drunk as you do. And it's not clear. How or why but western. Jeff ended up side in the driveway of this house where this party taking place. Jeff told the police the next thing he remembered that he was coming to in the passenger seat of his car and jeff claimed that his clothes had been removed. Jeff claim that west was on top of him in a straddling position and he said that west was essentially forcing himself on him and that west. His arms were under jeff's armpits as if he was holding him then he said that he punched wes. then jeff claimed that west bull rushed him at which time jeff stabbed him several times and that west was actually the one with the knife and they started to wrestle around and they rolled out of the car and their arms had gotten untangled at that point then. The two of them fought over the knife. Now wait a second. Where did this knife come from member. Jeff had arrived at the party with a knife but it had been taken away the year weapon that he used unless was a knife from the nice block in the kitchen there at the house where the gathering was okay so jeff's showed up with his own knife. He's got so drunk. It was taken away and then he stole one from the butcher block of the kitchen where this party was being held anyways at this point according to jeff he in west were wrestling over this knife in the driveway of this home. Jeff claim that western yelling at a certain point. Jeff felt something wet which he believed to be wes as blood they continue to struggle before jeff stabbed west in the neck and there are some difficult things to understand about the story. This apparently happened in the driveway. The home where several people were still inside the house not far away. Jeff clean to wake up from being asleep when wes was quote unquote on top of him. Again they had just wandered outside their people just inside this house. And there's also conflicting information about whether or not someone else had witnessed. This was their win. West was actually murdered so to be clear after he's all said and done telling the police his story with jeff is alleging that he stabbed west death because west had made sexual advances in fact he took a step further and said that west actually sexually assaulted him. You know basically at knife point he took it a step further then instead that west had attacked him with a knife following this assault slash know violence coming onto him. I can't imagine west trying to like attack him like that. He was super useful super passive person. Also he didn't have trouble finding companionship so it wasn't like he was desperate or anything and also as far as i know based on the people that he had done with before his type either and i mean i guess you can argue like hey. They were really drunk. Okay well just because really drunk doesn't mean i'm gonna try to attack somebody if that isn't something that i would do normally and donald that i wouldn't try to attack somebody that's completely like the opposite of quote my type for people who knew both jeff and wes jeff's account was absurd since jeff in west had no business hanging out together at all that night. They weren't even really friends by all accounts he's very. Jeff was very manipulative. You know person charming and you know. Did he somehow talk him into spending time with him. You know setting it up. I think they just met kind of people that they do. You know in common because we're not not really from the same group. Many of us don't really understand why he was spending time with just. I had met him once like in passing. I did not know him but a lot of people that were friends with west did no jeff. Ib believes that jeff decided that he wanted to kill someone but also decided that someone would be west. I do think that you ahead of time. So whether it's the counter lesson was like yeah this guy right here. Because i don't think that she makes fun of gaming will so i don't know get gay. He'll do and then get him. Or if you were just hanging out and see how it goes then maybe nothing happens like nobody listens the perfect opportunity but i think that he landed he picking west. Otherwise why would he go to a party with a giant knife. Relief a huge giant night. That was taken away from your which the person who away from actually turned to that. Well okay so you might be wondering why obvious so sure that jeff plan this that he planned to kill someone. And here's your answer. I went onto jeff's my space. And i was shocked shocked because okay so he had been incarcerated and then he had been let out on parole or probation or whatever like three days before he killed west but one of the first things he did after he got out of jail was to write a my space post about how the entire time that he was incarcerated. He had been thinking about how he wanted to. I'm trying to remember exactly how he put incapacitate and dismember human being so just have been in jail. He'd gotten out only three days before that party and the charges that landed him behind bars the first time we're unpaid fines related to previous misdemeanor convictions. So jeff put the stuff about wanting to kill somebody up on my space. He follows through with it. He brings knife to a party and he's now trying to claim that he killed wes in self-defense. I was so shocked. Because everybody's like you know. It was an accident. And i saw that and i went ono. It wasn't it was not an accident. You don't show up to a thing with a knife and have posted something like that and you're with somebody that you wouldn't otherwise be hanging out with and then they end up dead. What the heck. And so i had screen shot at it and then forwarded it to the district attorney like hey you need to know that this is the thing and then shortly after that jeff's girlfriend deleted and here's the thing about jeff. He apparently had one of those personalities. That really worried abby. She was fearful that people might actually believe jeffs lies. I kind of feel like we. Have you know enough of the element in our town. That people like. Okay you deserve to die or you know like oh you're saying you're forcing yourself on him. Well you can't he's stab. You was enough. People are hearing what he was saying happened and then thinking. Oh my gosh. They might actually believe that this thing happened and just let him go. I don't know about you. But the older i get the more. My body just hurts. 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Simplisafe press free security camera today by visiting simplisafe dot com slash first degree. Go today this deal is for only this week. Only that simply safe dot com slash first degrees simplisafe dot com soc first degree well mo- time simplisafe dot com slash first degree so in this story. West jeff were in that car so really. There's no way to know what happened right. Well wrong because just behavior following the brutal murder of his friend spoke volumes about the type of person that he is. So here's what happened after jeff murdered wes. He drove west car a short distance to the local landfill and it was there that he abandoned west. His car in the actually dumped the eighteen year. Old's body there then. Jeff went to a friend's house and tried to clean himself up. The police spoke to this friend. Who lived at the home. Where jeff washed up and this friend said that when jeff came by he was covered in blood from head to toe so now the jeff has dumped his friend who he just murdered and dumped the car. He starts walking and it's not clear where who is attempting to go but the assumption is that he was heading home wherever he was going to get their head to cut through the yard of a man named renter to get there. So as jeff was walking through the skies yard roger the homeowner saw him and stopped him. He saw jeff's bloodied state and he pro devout why he was covered in blood. So jeff made up an incoherent bullshit story. Roger then insisted on driving jeff home and he wouldn't take no for an answer. So this good samaritan roger drives jeff to his parents house once they get there. The sheriff's department was called. And it's not clear if the parents call the sheriff's department or if roger dead but here is where things get weirder when the deputies get there they asked jeff why he has these defensive injuries why he has cut on his head wise covered in blood and jeff. Excuse points the finger at his father and says the father is the reason why he's bloodied and injured citing a domestic violence incident between the two of them. The officer spoke with us. Father who denied fighting with the sun to any degree but jeff insisted it was true and said he didn't want to be left at home and instead he wanted to be taken to his cousin's house who have nearby which he ended up going to the cousin's house so this is the kind of dude we're dealing with. He murdered his friend and then he threw his dad under the bus as soon as he needed an excuse in in a way to get away with murder of his friend he had just committed right and on this night. These deputies had no idea that a murder had been committed so as far as they knew they were really just in the middle of a domestic dispute between father and son and they probably get calls like this all the time and once police knew about the murder they speak with just cousin and the cousin story was. This one's jeff arrived the cousins house. He asked to be taken to the landfill. The one where jeff had dumped was his lifeless body only hours earlier and once they arrived he gets out of the car grabs a positive bag and put it in his pocket and from there he dumped a duffel bag he with him into the landfill. And this bag was later found by police and inside of it was his bloody clothing from the night of the murder and after he dumped bag he started talking to his cousin and he turned and said quote. I killed someone. Jeff preceded tell his cousin his own version of events and then a certain point. Jeff asked his cousin to look at him in the face. And jeff said look at me. Go look cold to you like a killer. I should have more remorse or something but somehow it ain't there after jeff turned himself in. The police recovered west his body and they took the body in for an autopsy and the results were disturbing. And i'm going to quote the corner here quote. The victim's wounds were very long and very deep his voice box carotid artery and his jugular vein were caught even with a very sharp knife. It would take significant force to sever those areas and to penetrate into the throat that deeply and quote he further described the wounds as a class a cutthroat. The wound started at the left side of wessex face and ended under the right ear. Wes also had a deep wound under his left arm that penetrated his long west had defensive wounds on his hands on his palms and he was also stabbed several other times and one wound penetrated his lung. Everything that we just listed was off truly gruesome injuries however the most glaring thing covered in the autopsy was not the horrifying level of aggression reflected in west his wounds but that the bulk of them had landed on his back which meant that jeff story of west attacking him. I with the knife. That couldn't be true after what's his body was recovered. The detectives searched the surrounding area for more evidence. They found a thirteen inch kitchen knife. A few articles of clothing and some paper that were wrapped in a towel a wooded area near where the abandoned car was located. You know when you meet somebody and they just seem kind of like. Oh they're really charming and they're really nice but you can tell that they're kind of like they're wearing a mask. I heard from a lot of people. Like hey he's like a very. I don't think two-faced is really the right term for it. But just like he's to people you know like hughes the persona that he projects and tries to get you know everybody to be like. Oh that's just but really huge something else underneath. Jeff was arrested and booked on charges of first degree. Intentional homicide and hunting a corpse. The charges he was facing carried a possible life plus ten year sentence. He pleaded not guilty. Which meant there will be a trial. While the wheels of justice were slowly turning time with standing still for those coping with the loss of west it had a tremendous impact on my life. And i was really messed up for a super long time. It took a lot of work to come back from. I will never be over it. You don't ever get over something like that but you learn to function with the grief and function with the anger. The day that it happened the anniversary of that. I used to go sit at his grave and and drink myself into us at least do very not even like a big drinker. At the time this unfolded there are certain individuals who did by jeff story jeff's girlfriend believed him. His friends believed him on the internet. Several posts were exchanged that expressed shock about how someone as quote unquote nicest. Jeff could be involved in something like this and friends came to just defense and said that he had never expressed having any issues with gay people which left them at a total loss. And all the while jeff really stuck to his story insisting that he was the victim he takes responsibility for his actions. He came up with this idea. I wanna kill somebody. He went through with the idea. I killed somebody then. He hid the body. And then i don't know if it wasn't exhilarating. Thrill he thought it was gonna be and he decided he needed more the attention of well. What happens if i turn myself in and take them to the body and then tell them it was his fault and whatever but still zero accountability. Like it's not my fault tact me. It's not my fault. my dad beat me up. I'm bloody and my dad. Beat me up. Why okay sure that just completely sets with his super manipulative personality when the trial jeff is defense leaned on a hybrid between self defense and a gay panic defense. If that's not a term you're familiar with we're gonna laid it out for you and i'm going to preface this by saying it's total bullshit but this is how defense lawyers try to play. This will and billy. I think another thing too is like it wasn't an explicit. Gay panic defense. It was like it was. It was sort of like tone because of where they lived. You know what. I mean like were they weren't they didn't have to say it. It was like he was the west came onto him. You know what. I mean like because it wasn't it was an inferred e- exactly so it was really inferred jackie. Now they yes. Sorry to cut you off. Okay a certain so. According to the lgbt bar the panic defense strategy legal strategy that acid jury defined that victims sexual orientation or gender identity slash expression is to blame for defendants violent reaction including murder. Now it's not a free standing defense to criminal liability but rather a legal tactic. Used to bolster the defenses when a perpetrator uses a panic. Defense they are claiming that a victim sexual orientation gender identity not only explains but more or less excuses a loss of self control and the subsequent assault and then again. I'm going to say it's total bullshit but this is what defense lawyers attempt to do in these situations during the trial. The prosecution used evidence from west his autopsy to contradict jeff's version of events. Jeff insisted he punched west that he pulled his hair to get him off him while he claimed west straddled him in the front seats but the prosecution pointed out. The west actually didn't have any marks myspace. No significant amount of hair was pulled from his head. Either one detective testified. Jeff said he was standing in front of west when he stabbed him in the throat that he waved the knife. In sort of an s shaped pattern as gashed him but when the corner took the stand as you mentioned he said it's impossible for things who've unfolded in this way explaining that there were wounds to his back in the shape of the patterns completely contradicted jeff story at the trial. Just defense attorney backpedalled in his clients defense and he said that jeff never should've told the investigators that he was sexually assaulted by wes so it seems as though that whole story was retracted in court. But they did stick to other aspects of the story. That jeff kraft said that was his murder was in self-defense. Calling it a quote unquote tragic mistake but again. The autopsy proved that west. His throat was slit and he was stabbed from behind. Which directly defies a self defense argument. The trial didn't seem to be going and jeff's favor and he started to pick up on this so in a plot twist before the conclusion of the trial. Jeff made a deal with the prosecution and he took a plea so he pled guilty to first degree intentional homicide at the plea hearing. He said quote to the family of west young and to my family. I say to them. How sorry i am that things got out of hand at night. I never intended to kill west young. And i'm sorry for all the grief i have caused. Okay now denying his intention to kill wes directly contradicts first degree murder. But okay so. Jeff was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of extended supervision or parole in twenty years and part of jeff deal included the fact that the charge of hiding a corpse that he was facing be dismissed and after the sentence was handed down west stepfather ray care addressed the court saying how jeff quote unquote let him bleed out like deer. He also said that the families grieve had been compounded by the fact that was his mother. Becky was dying of kidney failure and westwood would have been the most likely match and now to be honest. The reason abby decided to do this podcast in the first place because she admittedly had never listened to an episode of the first degree. Maybe she will now because we bonded and are almost to our conversation anyways. It was important to her that our listeners know that this situation is not about her. All of this is for wes. In the reason she decided to speak out about one of the most traumatic experiences of her life remember. She was there in. These moments was unfolding between mice based and talking to the cops and the talking to the corner about his injuries. The reason she's putting herself through again is because she believes jeff could kill again in that he shouldn't be given the opportunity to hurt anyone else. He will be eligible for parole in twenty twenty six. And i know that that seems a long way away but it's not in the grand scheme of things. It's going to come pretty quickly if we wait till the last minute to do something about it then. It's likely it's likely that he'll be released. Because by all accounts he's than a model prisoner while he's been incarcerated which is not shocking given his personality. He maintains innocence and and just zero accountability. He will not take responsibility for what she did. He's still the victim. I am truly terrified that he'll be released and he'll hurt somebody else. I can't imagine what i would do if he got out. And i encountered him on the street for those who love west. The lack of coverage of this case has been frustrating. It's not visible. It's not something that you can. you know. bring up here and nobody recognizes it. Nobody's heard of it which just blows my mind. We're not a huge town. People who've lived here for the last two decades should remember that one time that some crazy guy decided to practically decapitate kids but no nobody remembers that and more than anything. Abby doesn't want her friend to be forgotten here was a really like peaceful person very non-confrontational he was going to school to become a counselor because he had spent some time in foster care and his goal was to become a counselor and help kids like he had been and just make it so that things were a little bit easier for them. You know really just makes the world a better more hopeful place. This happened fourteen years ago way. Although it was not like terribly taboo to be gay it was not really accepted the way it is now like that is that is one thing that just kills me like the the progress that's been made for any different quote different not straight person the fact that west is not alive to see you this progress just chills me because he would you lord the progress that's been made in the last fourteen years. I have no idea how the world would be different in the amazing things. He would have gone if you've been here and just all of that was wiped out All right well huge. Thank you to abby for being our first degree gas and being so vulnerable telling us her story if you're out there and you have a story to tell. Please email us at. Hello the first podcast dot com Follows on instagram. I agree at alexis newsletter. Bill jensen at jack. Vanik join our facebook group. You're talking true crime all the time. We're also talking about the random shit that we talked about during the time and Stick around because we're gonna kill some more time and remember only you can prevent serial killers and keep your friends close close. I think making you mickey mortimer mouse to be mortimer day. A fake thanks. Jared monaco for our sound design for creating original music for the first degree are producing team. Caitlyn cleveland love you. Girl taylor rogers allen santiago for podcast one sources for today's episode include court documents twin cities dot com stevens point journal the daily tribune the post crescent. The lacrosse tribune. Zoe's first degree guesses though is our largest source you know. Even though this year has been a absolute dumpster fire. The one. Good thing is the recent pup adoption. Boom you know shelters are being cleared out but that means you might not know that much about your new best friend but embarks breed and healthcare is the best way to help you know your pop new or old so from breed traits to genetic risk factors for health conditions embark provide resources to help you and your best healer care to your dog specific needs and over fifty percent of dogs or either at risk or a carrier of genetic disease whether there a purebred or mix and embark can give you a leg up when it comes to knowing their health history and you can even learn more about your dogs ancestry back to their great grandparents and match your dog's relatives. One of my really good friends adopted the cutest dog and we couldn't guess for the life of her what breed it was and finally found out through embark so right now. Embark has an exclusive offer on their breed and health kit for our listeners. This holiday season go to embark vet dot com right now to get the best deal. The year and free shipping use promo code. I degree to save sixty four dollars off your embark brayden health kit embark vets dot com and use promo code first degree to save sixty four dollars today. Jill owner wrench home. Sure you do. And i bet it can be hard work. But you know it's easy bundling policies with geico geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowners renters insurance along with your auto policy and is a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home. Go to geico dot com. Get a quote and see how much you could save. Its geico easy. Visit geico dot com. Today that is geico dot com. Hi everyone this. Is gillian with court. Junkie court junkie is a true crime. Podcast that covers court cases and criminal trials using audio clips and interviews with people close to the cases. Court junkie is available on apple podcasts. And podcast one dot com. Anyone can join colts if you've ever dived headfirst into a new self help program or believed wholeheartedly in a spiritual practice or even just trusted someone with your life. Guess what you're just as long as everyone else. No one is safe especially not megan. I am the most susceptible. We want to dispel the myth. That people who joined colts are dumb or naive or broken. Anyone can be manipulated by a narcissist and we should know we will have been. I am leblanc. And i'm megan was about and we're real live call to reiver's join us every week as we talked to other survivors believers experts and more about their experiences and our experiences with cults extreme belief and the abuse of power. You might be not trust me. Trust me is available. Every wednesday new. Wherever you get your podcasts. Alright well welcome to yet another episode of the killing time. Killing time is back. That's right no it just came close and then you come running but do i say it. Every week i feel like it's like maybe once every four weeks you don't say it. Every week i keep tabs. I think the reason why i said as i feel very connected to me right now. No i feel very classy looking at billy right now. Because he's sitting in like a corner office looking thing in a turtleneck looking very refined. Where's your monocle belly. Like wall of books behind you. Yes and apparently. They put us all on the sixth floor. Which is the nicest floor. And they gave us all giant rooms. But there's no room service you want to explain your situation. I mean i made a hotel. I'm working on my book. And columbus ohio and it is saying with us all the ghost town. I mean us meaning like the like the guest on the sixth floor because the elevators always open whenever i go to it so every every guest on the sixth floor. There's not many people here At the west super cheap but there there are literally no occur. Monsour anything they didn't even you know but his wife is that a whole thing. Yeah exactly so while. Billy you look nice like you look you look nice. You look like you should be like an dark room. I'm really called right now. Still i was outside for about four hours. And it's really cold here here so i'm sorry. Sorry really okay so okay all right so this episode of killing time minus the dot was inspired by something that my mom sent me and it was this game a and you may. She's always in the background trying to give me ideas control mike. Creative businesses control jared's creative businesses. She always after everything that jerry does now. She calls to check up and give feedback of what he could have done better. You know what. She's the chris gnashing of this cruise. The crisco dashing. Yeah remember when she said. Hey hey jack. How about you make like rubber bracelets. I know like thick. Remember when she said that that was great. I know my ma. I can really attribute all of my success in life to my mom because it was her idea to make the jack manic bracelet so we should listen to what she says so what she was saying is through me that she sent. It says well i already that. Let's not like we read on this podcast or anything. She's had researchers concluded that there are four types of drunks. The first type of drunk is the hemingway whose personalities stays the same. The second type of drug the mary poppins who becomes even sweeter and more outgoing. The third type of drug is the nutty professor. Who becomes an uninhibited attention. Seeker and the fourth is mr hyde who turns hostile. No we to figure out what types of drunks. Dr minds easy miss. The hot the last one no the happiest drunk ever in less. I'm not fed. Which the only time i've ever get thrown jared any sass or you any sas win like we had a barbecue at your house and i was wasted in. The gas wasn't working on the stove and i hadn't eaten twenty hours and i was. I was so drunk diet or you like couldn't eat a car. And we're drinking copious amounts of alcohol but no. I think i'm just a happy drunk. I don't really get me. I would say the you're the mary poppins which is the happy one. Yeah in on occasion. The mr hyde hostile. That i'm hungry is the only time that's fair. That's billy without. I'm hostile when hungry. I mean we're also. I think the mattis that i've gotten a jared recently was last week when you know when you get so hungry you get past the point of knowing what you want to eat and then you're just mad and the nothing can make you feel better. Yes i got to that. Point and jared. Have i ever been matter you than that moment. Jaw well there was like that whole incident was crazy. You were just so mad. I wanted sushi but then like sushi so expensive and they get sushi delivered. You're paying ninety dollars delivery sushi. It was just whole thing but anyways bill. What kind of drunk or you mr hyde. So i'm typically typically drunk. Most of the time. I'm hemingway with with probably a a little bit is who's i'm gonna posted on the facebook group because i want to hear everybody is kind of. Everybody is the hemingway whose personality stays the same. I'm not too because. I drink a lot also and i'm pretty like even keel. That's that's true. I can like i mean alexis will have fifteen drinks. I can barely tell that. she's normal. totally normal that's been. I remember though billy. I'm starting to your not a hemingway at all. No you can tell the billions drunk. After a second joining drink googly eyes get googly eyes and then you start slurring and i know that even our listeners know this because they can tell which episodes you've drink to us that that is true but y- you. Let's keep in mind that that hemingway blew his brains out so on brand for me won't must have just been feeling the same he feels when he's sober. So yeah so we have. We have we decided. He's a hot. Mr hyde mr hyde. Okay if third rock just if you're drinking no if you're drunk. Your personality changes drunk. That's not. I mean. I am when i'm drunk and hungary it's not like an insult. Could anyways jaksa hemingway. The only time. I've seen jack do anything drunk in the last two years. That wasn't like her wasn't halloween last year. When you were trying to get an uber. Back to santa monica or back to we're gonna del rey for mali's house. Oh well this this is the time. Okay when i snap. And i turned into a mr hyde. When i'm drunk is when i can't get home it happened. Wanna go wash your year you need. Your routine happens every single year at every festival. I go to because it's so hard to get home from festival. It's also one of the only times. That jordan i have fought. We're trying to get home from a a whole drinking thing. If i can't get home and i'm stuck somewhere that's when i turned into the biggest bitch in the world. Yeah you don't like that. i know i want. I want to get my robe. I want to be worm shipman golfer shit. No i like that though may as may strikes again in a good way. Yeah so on some of this. I thought that we'd do a little alcohol. Themed killing time and just like get to know us through our drinking habits so the first question is what is the first alcoholic. Drink that you ever had and give me a little story behind my mom. My house i grew up in had this closet. She threw huge parties. We had like pallets of like gin and vodka. And i just remember. You have no disgust for that alcohol yet. Because you haven't been sick from it or hung over. And i remember like chugging like shitty. Jin john was. I just remember chugging jin like 'cause i snuck a bottle and we had friends sneak in and we were like drinking gin like it was nothing. Because you weren't repulsed by it yet by the taste of alcohol yet because you had hadn't hurt hurt you your soul. A gen is such a weird. I drink was around man long island billy. What was yours. I have memories of peach schnapps. Oh probably because that was just what was in the liquor cabinet you know like everything else was done but then like the peach was there. That's probably are a good. I drink yeah and now i can't eat not only pete's not i can't. I can't eat anything peach now. I love that. But about a p trang peachy ring yeah. I'd rather have a have a watermelon slice candy. Peach featuring is probably one of the only actual candies. I like. that isn't a chocolate You know alexis tonight. We're like attached at the hip. Spare conversation the other issues. Like what are you getting so and so for. Christmas and i was like this. I'm on that website right now and then. We just started going back and forth with ideas. We already had that idea. It was genius. I i was asking for ideas. For christmas. For jared and alexis the two main ideas looking for billy that was blank and she was like holy shit really. I was thinking about that. We're always on the same wavelength. Lacks all literally. I strength that. I had was in mexico when i was thirteen years old and i was on vacation with my parents. And we're at the pool and we ordered something called a brown monkey from right. That's what it was. It's basically a chocolate smooth bananas. The arab him. I told him the story recently. I think i called it a brass monkey which is not the thing but that was what was in the brown monkey. I think it was just a chocolate and bananas movie with some. Maybe a vodka or rum makes probably more sense okay. It's the speaking of that. What what is the drink that makes you want to throw up at the thought of like. What is the drink that ruined you when you were younger. I have to yeager bomb. And captain morgan and so coal lime soco disgusting so code. Give me a hangover like an hour after i drink it. Do you remember the yeager. Bomb phase with red bull engaged or my stereo pumps are sick disgusting. But so choline is probably the worst and captain. Morgan is pretty bad too. Socal awesome morgan though. Soco is pretty bad. What about you billy. It's the peach op stuff like whatever's made with. I'm like salivating thinking about that. But i can't think if like you went too far with peach is of very that peach flavors very potent overwhelming very potent. Almost as sort of you know obviously it syrupy because just lacouer to its. it's perfuming. Mine is a vanilla vodka with vanilla coke. It was i. Just i remember the night i remember the next morning. It was sickening. Oh god as well. That's bad like sometimes when you're sick over something the flavors like seared into your brain as like a pavlovian negative response and it's just can't even advert decades to come just thinking about it. The thought of vanilla coke even on its own is just ruined forever. Not that i would ever like vanilla coke but that it's just it's pretty bad. Hey billy here's a here's a question. I don't know that billy might be familiar with. Have either of you ever done a cake. Stand at backstage show before. I believe i have yes. Jared gave me this question. Because i mean the the. We've probably talked about this on the podcast before. But billy the thought of billy and his gangly body doing a keg stand is the best to hold them up his long. It was it was. It was like gulliver's travels and i remember always funny. Because i was on the plane coming out here and i was just going. I was like cleaning up my phone. And i got to that night. It was about a year ago. It was it was. It was right after thanksgiving and i got to that night and i was looking at the pictures and i remember seeing. I didn't have any pictures of that. But i remember seeing the pictures before and a few pictures afterwards and i was just like. Yeah that was. I did that. You know i think if i look far enough back into our dm's i could find it. Because i'm mad. Posted it on instagram here. You it was all you gotta stay young. Stay young honestly. I think that everybody was very stoked for doing that. And then jared and. I were talking about that guide being backstage at a concert early going to a concert jack. I just remember even going backstage at your lady gang. Hang lady gang show here in. La with schick shock and like alcohol. It was so fun and we went to the to the market. What is that place called downtown. Oh really was there to the downtown. No is the lady gang downtown. La show and we went with their parents. I eat at that place. Yeah Dallas where alexis linkletter must be stopped shirt. Yeah i can't remember. It was like jared was there. We had oysters. I and want you that. Chinese food place anyways. I don't guess is in stand up for you. Remember the stage once. You're pretty cool. I just like miss doing what early. Anything me too. I just miss you guys like face to face. Hangs i know we need a fit. You know what we need to record in person sometime soon. Go get tested. Do the damn thing and like rahm the same pod. We might as well no. I'm getting tested when i come back. I'm getting tested so damn if we next. I just need like some probably do like monday or tuesday. I'll be tested monday by then. Yeah well we have monday or sooner so anyways won't bore our listeners. Sorry we'll we'll move group shop. But i think we've told some time. Yes time. fifteen twenty four boop boop beep. I know you're enjoying the podcast. But i know you'll also enjoy talking about holiday season if you love the holiday season as much as i do. You know. you're already incorporating a little mariah carey into your playlists and lighting those pumpkin spice candles and you might also be thinking about what you're going to get the women in your life this year. I love giving and receiving beauty products. Because it's always fun to try something new and everyone knows i love skincare tube but giving beauty gifts isn't always the easiest so do what i did and head over to ulta beauty website. Ulta beauty has great holiday gifts from top brands. Like tart to face clinic. Mario badescu and more. They're making it so easy to gifts that you know the women in your life love and you might even want to get a little something something for yourself when you see everything that they've gotten store. I love the gift. Guide dot com. Because that's where it's quick and easy quiz. You can take their or you can just shop the way that you want by price. Category gift sets and more a couple of gifts. I'm really looking forward to get him for my friends and family. Actually maybe even myself include the opi shine bright collection and they have shades of pink and red that are super cute for the holiday season but they also have shades. Just perfect for you around. They also have the peter. Thomas roth masking mini kits limited edition that comes with five mini sizes of the brand's bestselling skincare masks there. One for soothing lifting peeling detoxifying and hydrating. And it's an amazing gift for anyone who needs to practice a little self care. See the joy. This holiday season shop in store curbside pickup or online at alta dot com. That's u. l. t. dot com.

jeff Jeff Billy Eighteen year twenty two year abby Abby Willie wisconsin jack vinik billy johnson willie steamboat hundred year mickey mickey Mickey lady disney atlanta twenty fifth willie jeff kizer west
Episode 35: The DeBeers

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Episode 35: The DeBeers

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree the first degree. They're supposed to happen in movies, not real life. From her. I got. You know, like that we're five and self defense courses. They tell you don't ignore like if you get that off feeling about someone don't, like you don't have to let them in your life type of thing I could tell something like off about Stacy me wonders if she had like close pardom psychosis, like Andrea Yates. Just as a little bit of a trigger warning for anybody. That is listening. We will be talking about very graphic things that involve newborn children. So if you have a or if you're a little faint of heart or you don't. Right. So we will be talking about crimes against infants. So if that is something that is deeply upsetting. We highly recommend proceed with caution. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree that true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and also kind of across from Billy Johnson because we are recording in a new spot in. We feel in fancy. We do really like it here. It's nice stuff in the heart of Hollywood were, we are h house H club, H club, H club, h Clapp, it's like a super cool members only place in I am in. So what pants right around the corner from the capital records building, walk of fame on the blocker in also right around the corner from the frolic room, which is a very famous dive bar. That was also in L A confidential scrape bar. What day is it? Billy. It's national siblings day. You picked that one out of all of them. Yes. Because if you're a religious person of the Judeo Christian, faith, the first ever murder was a siblings murder. When Cain killed Abel. Billy loves the flexes, theology. Major muscle. Studies major. I was not trying to be a pastor anything. But yes, God knows you couldn't be a passive and is also would be a very interesting pastor quite honestly, probably one of the better ones, right? I go to that I go to that church. I would do. It's also encouraging young writer day, which is always nice. And it's national form animals day. And he forgot the best one it is also national sim, cinnamon crystal day Wassall, cross some which I like, but tomorrow, I got flaky pastry myself have you ever seen croissants being made? It is just like it's there, an I haven't watched that when I smoke weed at night. I'm going to Google it on YouTube mentioned on the YouTube machine. Yeah he go smoke weed when you do it now. But tomorrow is national chase darkness with me day. It is audio book comes out tomorrow. Everybody go by that there is a shadow for Lexus in either is not in the audiobook, but I I it isn't just. You know, I will I will actually we'll put it up on social and yeah. So if you like the stories about the Golden State killer about the bear brook murders. There's there's two big chapters about that. And also, if like, like we said, if you want to hear me, talk, and not have me be interrupted by Alexis and Jack for nine hours straight. I believe it's nine hours. Yeah. Three hundred. Oh, shut that takes you nine hours Tam? Wow. Well, it takes us an hour to get through like six pages of town, but that's mostly because we go on, really insane tangents. There's no tangents in the in the book grow, there should be the audio siemian Alexis like yelling at you. But yes, no, so yeah, you can get it at. Audible dot com slash chase darkness or at Amazon. The only two places that you can get. Oh, everybody go by it and. We're going to move on from that, and to. So, you know, we've been we've been twenty around at the idea of doing like true crime question. And then last week we talked about, I think it was we talked about Billy's beer carrying habits. It'd be his beard color of the day. Yeah. Got a lot of sun that week. But, you know, we've been talking us three about some of the reviews that we've been getting on itunes and mostly the shit talk. We've actually discovered that the reviews about me or the most music there. The funniest I mean listen, I'm used to like people talking shit on me. It's like it kind of just comes with the territory. People have been like trolling me, those sixteen years old. So it's not that funny anymore. But for a Lexus, it's a news new and nobody talks shit on Billy so that Billy's the golden child. He gets no criticism. I get shit talked him. Yeah. Not not on its own. It's all in the dark. Sir. But for this podcast, you the golden child. We get it. But for some reason, Jack Jack's Nin comments will be like Jack suck but mine will be like a paragraph long. Why? Mostly grieving habits. Okay, which have improved, but I'm happy to dry. You guys should be happy that Alexis his anxiety has calmed down a bit. I'm maybe she's using the right concoction of medication. Maybe I'm drinking the right amount because she's drinking threatening. I'm looking ahead enough there, I don't have any I'm not I'm not under pressure. But either way it will take your criticisms in stride. So here's one of the criticisms of the week and honestly, four stars that they've given us, which is nice says love true crime. Love the podcast. But I'm just wondering if Alexis is sucking on candy or something twenty thing. The sucking noises. She makes are making it hard to listen. I've been been listening for a couple of days but I just had to turn off because of the noises. Otherwise, I love everything else. Thank you, Gucci boy, two thousand six. Could you bring a hero? I don't suck on candy because I'm really neurotic about my teeth. Yes. I don't know what that noise is most have been from the if he's binging. That's. The beginning. Yeah. But I'm sure I do really annoying shit to everyone. I know. So I don't think you're in don't doubt. I'm that I'm not. I, I believe I'm annoying, as one of your best friends, I do not find you annoying at all. And I know you later than anybody. You really do. Billy. No. Billy just tunes us out. Are you here? Are you with us? I I'm with you. Yeah. I hear you power through till the new equipment phase. It was around episode fifteen. Yeah. I promise he gets better. I'm involving every day. I'm striving to do better every day. Yes. Take deeper problem. I will make noise for my whole life. So I don't even a human after all for sure. And we're talking about death and breath is life. So just remember that. Yeah, that could be worse one hundred percent. Right. All right. Let's jump into our case we're going to jump into the case. And this case actually takes us to January two thousand four and bizarre case started unraveling in a matter of hours after a man named Bob white Gart called to report that a child in his presence was not responsive. And this is in the general area of Rochester, New York. We'll get more localized as it applies, but child in his presence was not responsive was what the call was. So the police in EMT rushed to the suburban Ken dice neighborhood, which is his specific neighborhood in Rochester. And on the way my sumptious, they're probably thinking, maybe we can resuscitate this child. Maybe this is a situation. We can make better running. That's why EMT's are generally dispatched. But when they arrived, they noticed that. It was odd when they arrived at the home, they notice that portions of the house had been charred. And it looked like it had kind of been on fire. So they moved through the house, and they were eventually led to the basement and there, Bob showed them, this thirty gallon of plastic storage bin that had been filled with concrete around. What appeared to be the body of a newborn? And the child's evidently, was his infant, niece wrapped in a garbage bag. Entombed in concrete filled sort of been, and Bob Wichert later said to the media, I remember holding it up in the plastic. It looked like something out of a horror movie. I cannot imagine discovering that I mean, that is truly griffis something out of a horror movie, right? Like, I, I don't know if I've ever heard of that anything like that thing like that. So dr. Michael Foot arrived at the scene, and he pronounced the concrete and to MD baby dead at ten twenty p. I'm on the scene. The police learn that the home that they were called to is actually uninhabited due to the fact that it was partially burned down the people that had lived there before relocated to a nearby town of Farmington, Bob guard explained that he had come to make this awful discovery. And he actually had been asked by sister. Megan MacLeod to take a closer look at the contents of the garbage bag that she had found days earlier in the former home of their sisters Stacey beer. And she was living there with her husband, Brian, and mega McLeod again, Bob sister. She makes the initial discovery and she takes a hammer to the concrete and funds the bag with what appeared to be covered like a cloth covering. And in what she at first thought was paint, but she later learns it was blood, and that's the, that's the thing with blood, particularly when it's older blood, it's going to be darker. So to look like, you know, the red blitz kind of. Kind of Brown black Brown, so Meghan, meet this made the, this initial search because she intentionally went poking around after getting suspicious of Stacy. So Stacy hip been pregnant the previous year, but no baby came out, like, where's the baby? She said she was pregnant, I everything was going on. And then no baby. Be mature materialized in never. I don't think Shieffer said anything not pretended like she wasn't pregnant, right? Right. Hi. My name is Jason. I'm twenty nine I live in a big New York, so I'm after the beer in the early two thousand when my family we've moved to the neighborhood what it's called. It's thick. Themes dough haven because all of the streets are named after like fear like buckskin white tail antler. Yeah. I was like thirteen is the early two thousand when I met them, I knew their two children and other specs for their privacy. I'm not gonna stay there. I met one day when only when I was out walking my dog named brulee. I just happened to pass by the house and say, hi. My name is Jade, and type in the neighborhood where he assaults interacted. It was mostly the kid. The parents were. Were other at work all the time or kept on fell while doing guard for, but, you know, people would say, Hello it. You sound Hello. And people like you pet their dog. If it was from. All right. So let's talk about the couple that we've that is kind of at the center of this, their names are Stacey and Brian de beer as they're married. Couple Stacy's thirty years old and Brian is thirty two years old. And they had been married since nineteen ninety-five, and they have two daughters aged six and eight in the pair had been together, since they were twenty two and twenty three Brian graduated from a local hanalei high school in one thousand nine hundred and then he worked, various jobs, and he eventually was doing just contracting work and became an independent contractor. And Brian devere had essentially kept a relatively low profile before the police were called to his house that day. So. Yeah. During the summertime when I was thirteen when school wasn't in session, and no circulars or sports or anything to worry about we would hang out in each other's yard basically, like a whole. Mess of a twenty this would be, for example, the house, during Halloween time were a bunch of people from the area would come to because it was a huge development. So a lot of kids and stuff. So as far as the debris house outside, there were like a bunch of kids toys, in, like squirt, guns and stuff like that. There's nothing worse than getting older and feeling the signs of aging affecting. You are you experiencing a loss of energy trouble sleeping, sagging skin or deepening lines and wrinkles. You probably are because we're all just getting older every day. 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So Bryan kept a pretty low profile, but his name was super notorious to the family of a seventy two year old woman who was killed in two thousand one when he rear ended the truck that she was riding on canvas lake road. He struck her from behind, and it caused the car to hit a tree and flip over the crash claimed Patricia Northrup and critically injured. Her husband, Donald Brian was convicted of traffic infractions such as speeding and following too closely. And he served fifteen days in jail, but Stacey had zero scarfs on her record. So as far as Stacy goes, I interacted more with the husband because he was outside more. She stands side, the house there. And she was also the type of parent, like if someone's dog keyed on the lawn she would make you rent both par- the lawn off with the host of the grass. When you know go bad, and you could just tell that something was off about her. They I'm five eight. She's like unless they five six. She had long blond hair vakman, no glasses run to work contact. She's looked put together yet floppy at the same time like she would wear dress clothes, but there'd be like they all over it. The Bryans of your teeny was polar them me. He has short hair clean, shaven face in overweight, and he'd be the typical sad where like four teams Turks than jeans, or like khaki short acres something like that. Brian was more to hang out with the kids than he seems like a cool guy and I didn't get any bad five from him. But again, I could tell something like off about Stacy. From her. I got, you know, like that we're five and self defense courses. They tell you don't ignore like if you get that off feeling about someone don't, like you don't have to let them in your life type of thing, but she wasn't really a pleasant person though. So needless to say an investigation into these, deceased infants starts right away, and they go straight to the home, where the De Beers live now to go and talk to them about this, this discover that they had in the basement of their former home when they get there, they immediately want to search this house to, and they come through every room and right, when they think they've they've, they've gone through everything. One of the officers makes an unbelievable discovery in the homes garden shed, and it's the remains of a second child in a pale. Also in tuned in concrete. When I came home from school one day, there were hop cars everywhere. And then later that day my friend. Her name of Brenna called me to read the news. And it was like a holy crap. What just happened when I saw the news when I first heard it, I heard that they had found he babies who encasing cement, and that the two one, they had were getting taken how in the, the Brian and Stacy were arrested as far as reacting to the news, my mom great Dell then I freaked out that is something you don't expect from. I guess anywhere you love. You don't expect we are craft to go down like that. And, you know, and I feel bad for the two kids, I out to know over the summer. I was worried that something would happen to the two kids at some point, or maybe I didn't get the hint that they were being abused or something. I worried about that every day for over a decade. So upon this discovery the neighborhood in which the devere is lived was completely shut down. Now, the police had found two bodies of two infants, they had no idea if more would be discovered, or uncovered in what really they were dealing with. And they essentially at this point knocked on every door to learn what they could about this couple. And also at this point, it's when Stacy and Bryan were taken into the police station and separated their two daughters were put in the care of family members. So an autopsy revealed that each of these infants were determined to be full term newborns. There was no record of their births, which meant that they were self delivered at home. Both were little girls. The baby that was found in the second. Concrete thing how to crumpled up piece of tissue stuffed in her mouth. All right. So, so awful. So the parents of the two dead infants are in the interrogation room at the police. And here's what they learn. Stacey beer, eventually confesses to have having had eight pregnancies. And remember, she has the two living children's. Yeah. Kids were six eight and then these two that were just the discovered. And then now four more. Yes. So there's three pregnancies that ended in abortion, and she gave up one, baby for adoption, and then the two deceased newborns that they just discovered. And Stacey tearfully admits that she had put one of the children up for adoption, because she and her husband couldn't afford to raise two children. And then she describes in grim detail giving birth to the two slain children, one in March of ninety eight and the other on may tenth which was mother's day five days later, five years later, excuse me, in two thousand three another thing I want to mention is that when Stacy is arrested. She is pregnant. Oh my God again. Yes. How old is she thirty? So that was that was nine that would have been the ninth pregnancy. Jesus. Wow. It's fascinating. And we're going to get there. So. Stacey essentially said that both of the children. Had been breathing and making sounds before she wrapped their little bodies in cloth, and plastic in they died when the first one died, she explained that back then she had told a social worker that she was very overwhelmed with raising two toddlers, and panicked, when she was about to give birth again. She ended up delivering that baby herself on the couch. And when asked why she did not put the others up for adoption after she had put one up for adoption. She said she didn't know and she didn't know what she was thinking and the infant girl. The first one was born alive. But again, she said she wrapped it up and put it in the basement, because she was scared. And at that point, when her husband came home, Brian. She told him what happened, but the baby was dead. And then she said, you know, Brian worried I would go to jail, and we thought we should have the baby. I got. So she's continuing according to a statement while they're to alive children's slept upstairs, Stacey, and Brian, put some concrete in the bottom of large white bucket, put the baby in and covered the baby in concrete. And she said that I never meant from my life, TB so out of control. I just wanted the best life possible for her to older children. I'm sorry. It seems so trivial. I'm just so tired of everything. But I'm so glad that it's all out in the open. I never meant to hurt Brian in the kids. I don't wanna lengthy drawn out trial just want to plead guilty and end. So she is really just, he's talking about I don't wanna hurt Brian in the kids, meaning here to told her to older children that are still alive. And she's not talking about these other two children that she murdered. So Brian has asked about all of this, and he corroborates what, what Stacey story. And he tells police that, quote, we decided to place the baby in a five gallon, bucket, and pour concrete over the baby. It was my idea to do this. He said they kept the bucket in the basement, hoping to give the infant a permanent burial someday. And then that's also something to where it's just like you got this baby in a bucket. How do you not think about that every day? It's just sitting in your basement. And like, oh, so nice that you want to give it a proper burial, a great. I think what we haven't mentioned yet is that also one of the babies both of the babies apparently were delivered at this house that burned down. They only brought one right over bright. Because one was discovered in the basement of, of the burnt house. So in the other one was in the shed ranks. So the only brought one with them, and it's just so fascinating like the things your brain is doing to make these decisions. Yeah. Like why one and not the other in like maybe they will will. I think this is this is coming up, but we might as well just get into it. Now is that apparently Brian? Knew about the first one and he helps. But the second one I guess she said was stillborn but it's a lie. She killed that you thought it was stillborn. Right. So maybe in her head. She's like, I'll leave that one that, that represents, like me. And my husband are in together on the on. He knows the truth, and, and I'm gonna psychologist so don't crucify me in this. But I mean, just common sense, kind of right? It makes me feel that way where it's like if your partners in on it with you, you bring it, it's not as much of a. Taboo, theme to have in that house, even though it's horrific it's could not be more because because if you have somebody with you there, then that becomes your new normal. Right. That's you. That's your normal and the other person knows it as well. And our normal is we've murdered our child and have them in the basement, which is sick somewhere Smith we're in it were team on like these kind of cases always blow my mind where it's how you find somebody else, like it's crazy enough for one person to be capable of doing something like this. And how do you find somebody to go along with what you are doing? Well, I sort of gets in this situation only, I'm not saying it's okay, but I'm saying like Ryan comes home. Stacy had this, baby. It's dead. It's downstairs, she's hysterical. He's like, I can't have my wife go to prison like no one knows his baby exists. Like let's say we lost it and get rid of this. Problem right now. And it's he doesn't think it's ever gonna come. He doesn't think he's ever going to happen again. It Lord knows what she told him. You know, and I don't know I can kind of see it in this because it's not really a real person to him, yet, where it's like they're real their adult children have personalities and names. And I think I think I don't know. I've never been pregnant, I don't know. I don't know what this is like, Billy, maybe you can win I've ever been pregnant either here. I am a father. Yeah. No. I think it's just. It's, it's the, the ideas that, that he was that he was trying to rationalize this for himself. I think was saying who's gonna take care of the, you know, like this is a mother. Maybe she was a good mother or whatever. But remember in who's gonna take care of it. This eight year olds if they don't find if they actually went and did a barrel. We're gonna talking about this case, the fact that they the only reason we're talking about this case, because they found them in this house right in this burnt-out house. So they did it twice. Yeah. The only reason why we're talking about that, if he actually did what they said he was going to do, and actually take the bodies and actually give them the what he what he said was a proper burial. We would not be talking about this. It would be done, and they would have gotten away with it. We talk about some scary stuff here on the first degree. But when it comes to something as important as your family's safety, you need real protection with one of our favorite sponsors. ADT real protection means not having to be your own twenty four seven monitoring expert because ADT has the best in class monitoring professionals there for you at times when you need it, the absolute most real protection means having a safe and smart home. Custom fit your lifestyle with everything from video doorbells. Surveillance cameras that stream to your phone smart locks in lights and carbon monoxide and smoke. 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Alexa, isn't the only one with breaking news, make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute, if you like the first degree you're going to love showman's with Kevin mckell and Jenna, hush quits on podcast, one on the lady gang network during the former gleese ours and best friends is they interview other dynamic duo about the wild ups and downs of balancing a relationship on set. Download new episodes of showman's with Kevin mckell Josh quits every week on podcast one. most of these cases, go undiscovered. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Most of these, I mean this happens all the time. But that's what I'm wondering. It's like why why what do you think like the reasoning is for them to have just kept them? I don't know. No, I don't think I think, personally, I like, do you think it's they don't want to acknowledge it any further to, to move it or it's like as it looks some sizing thing, she's not a sociopathic think she's ill sick. Yeah, I think you have a lot of mixed. Feelings is so you just kind of our paralyzed and use of it there and ignore it in I was reading about this kind of crime. It's like Neo Natal side. It's when babies are killed in the first twenty four hours, one of the most glaring characteristics that these offenders share is passivity, your passive, your pass about the pregnancy, you or you deny it. You never wanna like confront what's happening. So you kind of just ignore it, until it actually happens. Ending you north. You see it with younger offenders, who, who commit these, these acts calling them offenders is so hard, because a lot of the MARTINI, Gers, what confused and scared. So I don't even want to say that there's a really famous case where she a girl gave birth at her school in the went back to prom during prom, she didn't even look pregnant. It's not real. That was in there in total denial in that. They don't even believe that babies alive. They're like, oh, it was a miscarriage, but they really believe I can see. I again it's like you don't understand it. But it's like I can see that for a way younger person. But somebody that has already delivered. That's the thing. Will you know what these children you already delivered? And you have a six year old and an eight year old at the time. But yet you've seen what those things turn into. They're not just some like intangible alive. Nothingness. Absolutely. And. We'll get into we, we do learn later, a little bit more about Stacy and her frame of mind, but to reset in recap, where we were so Stacy's interrogation and she described the police before the circumstances surrounding the first birth in the first baby. So she did move onto the second baby who was born as Billy said five years later on mother's day. And she said that she delivered this baby alone in the living room swabbed its mouth with a tissue in unused kiss kitchen. Scissors to cut the umbilical cord in, according to handwritten notes of the investigator, who conducted the interview, Stacy said the baby was alive, I panicked, I wrapped the baby in a cloth and plastic bag and took it out to the shed. Days later with her kids in the car, and the infant's body in the trunk Stacy allegedly brought. You know, water and two bags of concrete, and she dropped the kids off at her mother's. And then drove from location. She said, I took the baby out of the trunk put concrete in the bottom of the rubbermaid tote, put the baby in the middle and fill the rest with concrete. Put the top on the tote and sat down to gather myself, and, you know, eventually this tote ended up in their shed. So this is the point where Brian in Stacy's stories start to differ. Brian tells police that he got a different story in relation to the second baby. He said, she told me that they rushed her to strong Memorial Hospital, where they deliver the baby, the baby was still the baby was stillborn and the cord was wrapped around her neck. He said he believed his wife, and when she told him, the baby was born still could not be revived. So she, then that's means she did the same. She did that alone with the read. Yeah. So let's talk about how these crimes are classified. So this particular act is known as Neo natives side, and it's as Alexis was talking about, it's when a murder is committed within an infant's first twenty four hours of life, and these types of crimes, begged that question in a country, where abortion is legal and most states have safe haven laws permitting, the no questions asked drop-offs of unwanted babies. Why would a sane mother ever resort to killing her newborn child, especially? As we were saying a mother that had had already delivered birth and was raising two other ends. I'd put children up for adoption like knows. Literally everything, right? Any possibility? Absolutely. So back to what was Billy was saying about Neo Natal side, and extremely conservative estimate puts the incidence of new native side in the US at one fifty to three hundred annually. And as we said earlier, there's no way to know how many times this happens. Yeah. Especially I mean, most new Nate aside. Commissioners are under twenty under twenty five like college high school, and they don't show. And it's his fascinating thing in their studies about it. Where if they don't believe they're pregnant, they actually don't really show really. Yeah. So these girls really psychological. It's all of it, it's like I feel like you lean into it, when, you know you're pregnant, and you're embracing and you eat more new, eat more, you're taking your needle Natal vitamins, you're doing all this stuff. Yeah, they're not doing any of that those things then you know there's a reason why you're taking the falcons. Yeah. They're probably dress. To conceal it like you a lot of these in lot of these cases. No one had any idea. They weren't showing this one girl that I referenced in the prom dress was wearing a prom dress did not look pregnant. So there's no really way to know how many happening year. But researchers for decades have studied mothers who kill their newborn babies and in the process of found sufficient similarities between cases that's you know, this behavior is kind of considered a syndrome and experts say that harming the child is not something these mothers anticipate doing once they're thrust into the situation of having to handle alive childbirth on their own. They panic they act impulsively. They want to pretend it didn't happen. Right. And I think a lot of them like I said, we'll be like this isn't this isn't real this baby's dead. This, this isn't a baby. This is God knows what, what their brain does when they're freaking out to that degree. So this is actually a book by Cheryl Meyer and Michelle Barumun called mothers who kill children, and the book notes, quote, neonatal. Seidel behavior is often influenced by relatively intangible factors, such as emotional ice. Isolation and perceived lack of resources, then by stereotypical indicators like race or financial standing, which is interesting because you see that a lot in suicide as well. A nineteen ninety-five report on psychiatric law from the National Center for biotechnology information. Reported that Natal homicide rates were lower in the ten years following Roe v. Wade, and that Neo Natal side is proportionately higher in rural areas where abortion may not be socially acceptable or readily available. That's not a shocker shocker at all. So as far as Neo Natal, had goes, it's considerably more commonly committed by mothers than fathers, according to the same study that Billy referenced, I'm not gonna keep repeating that. But between nineteen seventy six thousand nine hundred seven. It was a term in that mothers were responsible for those deaths of children during infancy while fathers remark likely to be responsible for murders of children, eight or older. And I thought that was very that is really interesting. Yeah. So ninety percent of new NATO ninety percent of neonatal Seidel mothers are twenty five years of age or younger which actually puts Stacey in this very odd ten percent, category, and less than twenty percent or married, less than thirty percent are seen as psychotic or depressed. And interestingly or not so much, not maybe not surprisingly, the US ranks first in homicide of children under age four zero rights, forty five percent of all child murders occur in the first twenty four hours of life. Yes. And criminal psychologist, Philip j Resnick is actually the man who coined the term Neo Natal side, and he conducted a massive study on philosophical, which is the murder of children over. Hall. As far as her having so many kids, not stopping. I'm glad she felt one up for adoption, I suppose, but it's still very messed up situation. And I just like there's so many people, I know they can't even have one kid, Harvey wonders if. Yep. Like postpartum psychosis like Andrew gate. I don't think she was born evil. I think she was born good. But in high school of, we're talking about this, and I had a musical director at the time. She's like, yeah, I use Stacey in high school, and we all knew her parents viewing. So I think that shaped that partially shaped her into who she was was being abused then not getting proper therapy, or dealing with it as far as like having compassion for her. I chew it's been abused. But I seek therapy. And, you know, I stayed out trouble and shit. So a one little I understand how she became the way she became but I don't have empathy or compassion for a person that perpetuates the cycle. We don't know what kind of abuse Stacey suffered, and we tried very hard to get that information. She pled guilty. So there wasn't a trial. So we don't know that didn't come to the surface, but abuses interesting when you're talking about this situation because Stacey is in that kind of outlier demographic of women committing, neonatal, generally, it's younger, you know, she's thirty she has a partner usually they don't have partners. Yeah. Usually, they don't have kids and other kids. Exactly. And so it's her situation is not normal are as. The circumstances surrounding, yes happening. And I'm sure abuse has something to do with it. Do I mean, you gotta think because she had the option. She knew what the options were cheese or on shit. She had gone through putting a child up for adoption. She had an abortion. She had an abortion. He had the children, she's literally done everything that you could do, and you have to think that maybe and I'm, I'm not anything way of giving her an an excuse. But were those processes incredibly traumatic for her that she decided to do this instead, super less traumatic? I mean that's the. Traumatic thing. No. But speculating on. This is fascinating and everybody listening. We're not psychologists. This is just our commonsense speaking where we're trying to hurt us three normal humans wondering what the right in trying to understand. I mean Billy has kids Jack and I don't but we understand. Life awale. Yeah. We're like, yeah. Enough to know. Assume we would know what, what to do in this situation. I don't know. But I don't know what kind of abuse she suffered. So it's hard to comment further. Yeah. But presumably it had something to do with it because it's related enough. Yeah, of course. As plummeted Ben abuse. You know, I say going if there if you're a situation, you can't just go out and take it out on the world. You gotta deal with your shape. It takes time. But it gets better. Not okay. You go in her other people and lashed out at other people. Every car comes with its share of stories. I have a nice little ding in my bumper from one. This guy hit me at a stop sign and decided to drive away. I also have coffee stains all over the floor of my car from when I tried to eat breakfast while driving. It's never a good idea. And we'll you can't put a price tag on your story is now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade it in, you've heard me talking about truecar before they're amazing. All you have to do is go to truecar simply enter your license plate number, and watch, how your car's details pop up, then you answer a few questions. Do you have navigation and a moon roof watch as they bump up your value? If you have high mileage, you knew that was already going to cost you. But now, you know exactly how much things your wallet. So you can plan ahead. Once you're finished you get a true cash offer sent to you in minutes when you can take to your local certified cardio alert to cash out or trade in. So when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car. Check out truecar today and truecar cash offer is not available in all areas. So what's, so they were both arrested. Yeah. So what charges were they facing? So say she was indicted on four counts of second degree murder in connection with the deaths of her children, and Brian was indicted on a charge of hindering prosecution by helping her dispose of one of the bodies in nineteen ninety eight they both pled guilty at separate separate arraignments Cici told the police that she doesn't want along trial. She just wanted to plead guilty and Brian said that he was sorry for what he had done. So it didn't look like either of them. We're fighting this. They're super-most remorseful, and like taking full responsibility, right? So Stacy was held without bail Brian's. Bail was set at seventy five K and it convicted Stacey was facing up to twenty five years in prison. And this is a sidebar, but during all of these criminal proceedings. Brian actually files for divorce from Stacey. Stacey is eventually sentenced to thirty years to life in prison for killing their newborn less than a year earlier. And for killing the second baby girl in ninety eight Brian is convicted of hindering prosecution for entombing one of the two babies in concrete and he was sentenced to the maximum and the maximum was just two and a third to seven years in prison. And Stacy is now serving out her sentence of thirty years to life in prison. So after these sentences were handed down Stacy's family talk to the media, and they essentially believe that Brian had a lot more to do with all this than he claimed and was actually blamed for so quote, it's just a bad deal. We knew he had more to do with it with, there was only so much they can do said, Bob, y guard, who is Stacy's brother, and he at this point has been a strange from Stacey like after the legal proceedings had gone through. I mean they kind of lost touch because I think it was probably a horrifying situation. And Bob continued, he said he is put a hurting on a lot of people and their to their children six and eight year old children ended up with Stacy's mother and were placed in their care ever since the day they had been arrested so sad. No. Oh my God. Like I can't even imagine. So after brands conviction he ended up. In prison, and he got denied parole twice both in two thousand six and in two thousand eight and in the ruling board members who reviewed his case called his actions heartless, cowardly and heinous, and he was then released from prison on September sixteenth two thousand eight and so his release was not met with joy, but he gets out in two thousand eight after serving two-thirds of his sentence in the state law. Mandates that prisoners be released at that point two thirds if they've behaved while they've been locked up even if the board of parole recommends otherwise. So within a day of his release, he has to go to the New York state division of paroles, Rochester, office, you remains under their close. Watch until January sixteenth, two thousand eleven which is the date, that is prison sentence would have timed out had he served all seven years. As far as having a weird feeling about her feeling right about that. My gut feeling is typically. Right. And I'm glad I know not to ignore it. It's I feel really bad for the children in this case, though, 'cause I don't know what their friends found out or what was to them growing up. I just hope you know they were able to get in therapy. And, you know, like we're played with decent family members and stuff. And I actually just hope that mom never hit paroled. One day he did. I think like Bundy. Sociopath and burp. Her husband help, I think it was. He didn't outta love. But also at the same time with the pick. No. Because again, I am the type of person that would have gone to the cop, and I would have left that relationship and taking the kids, because that's me. Yeah. That is a dick mood do. I mean, nothing describes that better as a dick move than a dick move. It's the Dickey's move that ever was and like dick moves put describing up thing prescribing. Stacey as a sociopath, relating her to Bundy, and then just saying for Brian to hell. That's a dick move. It's an understatement. It's an understatement for sure. But listen Jaden is being really nice. Yes. Ryan was his favourite of the two he, he did hang out with him more than with Stacy. And I think Stacy's just not. Well, really like, you know, she wanted she cried, and she said, I want to plead guilty and, you know, that's not, that's not like a sociopath sociopath thing. You're right. You know, I think I mean, I think at the time again, it's this, this idea of like passive. I totally understand what that study was talking about. It's like you are so scared to. Front. What's happening that you just and I think it is a little wellness. Yeah. It's like putting blinders on him pretending. It doesn't exist. Exactly. But you know, could she? Could she do a horrific heinous like strangling of a person? I'm not sure I think it's just, you know, it's for her. It was passive. It's like it's an infinite can care for self. If I put it over here, it will die. What's all your to kill an infant than it would be to kill less violence? But yeah, but an adult adult or, or a child, that's the only acts. Yeah, there's less connection from the craziest thing about this case is the fact that she had kids. I've heard those stories like the girl at the prom. I've heard the stories of teenagers that go to the bathroom during school, teenage athletes, have an baby, the baby. In the toilet put on the trash, can you hear those stories? This was a woman who had already delivered birth to two healthy children, had also done. The two things that are the option the options, which is a, you know, she had an abortion, and she also gave a child up for adoption. It's just there's something there, man. I mean it's strange. Well, it's like do we want to have that little discussion about if like how you're talking about that? She may be addicted to being pregnant. I mean, I think just we were talking about the abuse. And I was I referenced the Diane downs case. And if you guys don't remember, I had to watch a twenty twenty on it that just aired to remind myself, but she essentially was convicted of murdering her two children because she was dating a man who didn't want children. And then she as soon as she did this. She was like being questioned. She went, and she got pregnant again and it's like she just killed her two children and know the evidence was glaring, and it's like, I don't know, if they see it as like a form of control and I'm not talking about space, Stacey specifically in the situation. Yeah. But some women are low, I think it's a high like they love you tension of being pregnant, they, it's a part of them, it's sort of like a narcissistic thing. What we see this and this story as we restoring to tell it could've veered off into she, you know, she was pregnant, and then no baby materialized. And then it could've veered off into one of those stories where she goes. And she kills a woman. That was pregnant and actually takes her baby which seen before this, obviously, it was completely different because she actually was pregnant. Yeah. She. Yeah. It's fascinating. And I, I would love to muse about it, but I just don't want to be chastised for not being a professional but I do think I have an understanding of like. You know, it's part of you, and if you've been abused and you have this horrible relationship with yourself. You don't want these babies, but you're totally you're looking for love. Like I, I could see how. Psychoanalyst may see it. You had a horrible upbringing hypothetically, you keep having babies because you want people to love you. When they materialize itself, loathing. And you're like get it. It's part of me. I don't want it. I see now is not part of me anymore. Right. And I it's, it's this in this is again, I don't want to hear any DM's about how I don't know what I'm talking about admittedly. I don't, but I know they're speculating I admittedly, I do feel like I'm onto something which are you? Yeah. As a medical professional. Yes. It makes sense to me. I mean I someone who's been a health therapy. I know what they would say. I, I think I'm close. So, so. You guys. I know we talked a lot of disturbing things. But the truth of the matter is, is that these are real issues that women grapple with guess, unwanted pregnancy. It's scary to be young and pregnant and not know what to do or old. I mean, people find themselves in situations all the time where you never know what really is going on. Yeah. And I think the biggest takeaway from this is there are options, and I mean, we are looking at the safe haven laws because we don't know that much about it, personally, I haven't had to deal with it personally. But apparently all fifty states have places that you can drop off your baby. No questions asked. So that is good to know. And of course, there are many other options as well. So if you find yourself in this type of situation, think offer Google, and hopefully there is a better option. Yeah. And I know every state is dealing with their different sort of logistics. Yeah. And we have compassion for these situations come up because. No two are alike. There's no guidebook for this kind of thing. It's, it's scary and terrible. But we will say handling it the way Stacy handled it as probably not the move might be the worst one handle it, right? And the way Brian to. And said it was a dick move. Deck move. God. It. All right. Well, thank you. A Jaden for being our first connect first degree connection today. We really appreciate you and it was a very interesting story to tell, and I think that there is a lot of takeaways from it. If you are connected to in murder, or other stranger than fiction story. Please write us at the first degree on Instagram slide into our DM's, Alex's, linkletter, Appalachians and. Attrac-. Vanik. Or you can right? Into our submissions page or Email us. Hello for Ripon cast dot com. Emails pop up in my actually, there's something that's really weird with that E mail. That's on my phone that I only get notifications for Email. I don't get any and you read them before me, and, like, hey, Lexus. I didn't hear back from you. I'm like bitch, and Email me back, and it's because you check it first because it's the only thing that pops up as a notification might leaving work on that because I need, I need the notification not you doesn't incredible story. Do. And I never know about. Like I was Ted bundy's. Airing the phone waiting for response and jacquards at first, so I don't get us. All right. Well, you know, that's what you have to do, like a double tap, like DM, Lexus. Well, right. Okay. Well until then keep your friends close but not that. Happy young writer. That's right. It was a cinnamon croissant day happy, cinnamon, pastry day Crisan croissant. Chris. So Trump and trade. I'm Tim Maguire, the AP newsman is the Trump administration was draws terrorists and steel aluminum from Canada Mexico, both countries say, they'll lift retaliatory tariffs on US goods clearing a hurdle for a new trade agreement between the three nations. President Trump says the end of the terrace is good for all three countries, spin, charging us extremely high tariffs as much as two hundred eighty five percent or more for our agricultural products. The Missouri house passes a ban on abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy. Governor Mike Parsons, I've been pretty clear where I've been from day, one on right to live several other states have also passed so called fetal heartbeat laws. Today's action follows Alabama's passage of a Bill making performing an abortion of felony in nearly all cases Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has defied a subpoena from House Ways and means committee, chairman. Demanding six years of President Trump's tax returns committee, chairman Richard Neal says they're likely to go to court next week. I'm Tim Maguire.

Stacy Donald Brian Stacey beer Billy Johnson murder Alexis linkletter Lexus Jack Jack Google US writer Rochester Bob Ted bundy Andrea Yates Jack Vanik New York Jaden
Episode 33: Samantha Young

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Episode 33: Samantha Young

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production. Degree degree degree degree. First, the first degree. Things are supposed to have it in movies, not real life. I think the most tragic piece of this would have to be just. The lower relative of dot Sammy hat, I guess the situation she was put in and it's such an easy one that anyone would do any person with a child with a Mesa nephew. Even someone says they need you, and you go, obviously, you don't go thinking you're going to get killed. Hey guys walking with the first degree the true crime podcast at you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from my co hosts Alexis linkletter and Billy Johnson. And we were just chatting before we started. Recording will know we were looking through our reviews because Alexis is a maniac and likes to look at our podcast reviews. I, I was actually just googling myself because I I'm. I'm. Not a narcissist just, you know psychopath. I'm sure we all do it. I know everybody was listening has done it. And I came across thing that I don't look at their views because Jack has a thing on her teaching. That's his don't look at the comments. And I don't look. Yeah. Until you do until I do because someone quoted me by full name in their comment headline, which came when I googled myself. So what did it say the headline, I don't know if this is the same one because the headline for that and was Alexis linkletter must be stopped. Right. Okay. But so high high Hollywood take note. So I decided to screen shot a, a few. A few reviews to Justino replay on the podcast. So I don't know if this is the right the same one so says linked linkletter needs to dot dot dot here's the thing. Great content. Awesome cast. However, might also be Alexis. Linkletter AS Amar audition tape. She reads heavily into the microphone as she swam fourteen loves through had an Olympic sized pool. And to top it off who lip smacking slush eating while recording is not only unprofessional, but utterly disgusting, please stop. You're making a decent podcast unbearable, first of all thoughts. Thoughts, are you can't tell who's lip smacking or eating. It's not just me. Second of all the only reason the content is halfway decent. Hella myself. So thank you for the compliment in the content in. That's all I'm gonna really like that. You spun it around. I mean, we did have sounded shoes in the beginning, which whatever we didn't know we were doing wanted to it was a new podcast equipment. And we had an amazing concept, and we did we had to do to make it, and I will take the criticisms and say, thank you. I will work. We'll work on it, and she's made some lemonade so off of that Billy what days it. There's a lot to choose from this day. It is. With an. R. A. B. R. E S S. Some are it's like people that get tangles from like certain sounds like holy shit. Do you guys think listeners, I have a career in that this person thinks that you do? Thank you. Maybe they would better even couple months on, I thought, maybe they'd listen to your podcast of your heavy breathing. I didn't even know that was, and I'm going to cash, we should okay? Bill. It is quirky country music song, titles, day, who, as you know, a lot of country music songs with murder. Oh, they don't take your guns to town by Johnny cash. Folsom prison blues by Johnny cash. Biscuit. A lot of accounts comes down to it. Yeah. The night. The lights went out in Georgia, there's a lot cocaine blues again by Johnny cash. So there's that is a, you know, Corky. Certainly, I mean murder songs that and country music is one of those things that there are more songs about murder in country music than really any other thing, even Norwegian death metal, which actually does the murder themselves, if you ever want to Google it, and that's, that's the, that's the one that I'm picking out of all of them. It's also national manatee day, this manatee, manatee manatees are the most incredible mammal. I do love manatee. They are like fat little. They're like fat seals. But they don't really soon. They just float on the surface of the water. India, Africa, Florida where you can find on the Caribbean. And those who drive boats propellers. You guys are the biggest manatee killers, Hannity insurers because they float up there or not. Don't really swim. They they're very buoyant, and you guys hit them with your speedboats in it really hurts them, but they are lovely gentleman, truly are like the puppies of the see the the there's nothing like it. There's no land mammal. I get there is cute. All right. Well, happy, manatee day, guys. Let's get into it. Let's get into not have a question. No. I feel like I replaced, the question with your replace their quest with reviews about. Yes, review day excites. I kinda like the review Tate with the criticisms except we might be reaching if I went about Billy, I now, golden child, it's all about criticisms are neon Nian Jack Bill bilious so wonderful such as a dumb himself down for the other to relax. You're welcome belly. Matter. We will get into it. But thanks. No. That is. I would beat. Listen. I would be nothing without checking Alexis. Let's just kale, but you don't. But you don't like it's all women dragging us down it hurts my feeling Meno and sticking it propelling. I'm just like dude. Where's your commodity all working really hard braking, try to BUSTER ass? You know, and make ourselves best. So we're trying. Yeah, we're trying. But anyways, Billy take it away. Take it away. So today's play today's case excuse me, takes place in Manchester township, and rightful Pennsylvania, which is a small town along, the Susquehanna river. That's true. So we're dealing essentially with the suburbs of Pennsylvania, as what what's happening here. So on. April nineteenth twenty fifteen at four twenty five pm the rightful borough. Police were called to the one hundred block of chestnut street by women named Angelica was worried about her sister Sami young in what was happening with her. So the home in question belong to a twenty one year old named Marcus borderline, and he was the father of Sammy's. One year old baby Sammy didn't show up for work and her sister went looking to see where she was because Tamie was a super responsible girl, not showing up to work was like super on characteristic of her and Angela knew that her sister, Sami would have been at this house, because it's the home of whore. Her baby's father and Marcus had the baby the previous night. So Sammy would have come at some point to pick her up. And when she gets to the house markets is behaving super strangely, and refuses to let her in, and that's when she decided to call the blaze, which makes sense. I mean it's. Like I'm just seeing you don't always sister is go to the boyfriend's house. He's acting really weird like make sense. Exactly. So the cops arrive the approach the home they look inside. They find Marcus. He's on the floor with a knife and a stun gun next to him. Marcus. In sammy's? One year old daughter are Tia was also in the home in another room. And that's not all. So Marcus is covered in blood, and they were pulls a blood all over the floor which it looked like he was attempting to clean up. So police rushed into the home looking for Sammy, and they follow this trail of blood. Through the house, and then outside of the house to this shed behind the house, and they find her body, which was half clothed in a shed, which was locked in the backyard. And it looked like she had been dragged into there. So the police could see clearly that Sami had been stabbed many, many times, she had stab wounds and cuts all over her body, including clusters of stab wounds. Turner back in wounds to her neck, head chest arms and legs in an autopsy revealed that stab wounds penetrator heart both lungs, her liver, and her diaphragm, according to Dr Michael Johnson, who was the forensic pathologist who conducted this autopsy. And it was awesome ultimately concluded that she had suffered at least forty nine stab wounds possibly more in. I was reading that they had a hard time counting them because there were so many. And he explained that these clusters of wounds with. They co-mingled pathways in. They made it difficult to count the wounds with certainty as I just mentioned. She also had many postmortem injuries as you know, Billy mentioned dragged face down from the home to the shed. So Sammy sister had already been at the scene. She was the one that called the cops and this is obviously any family members. Worst nightmare and it starts the news starts to spread to the rest of her family aside investigation is underway in your county from rights Ville, where we know. One woman is dead. We should release the identity of that woman. Police voice will burrow or vesting homicide that took the life of a daughter and a young mom for most of the evening family in front of Samantha young stood near crime scene, hoping their loved one was not a murder victim. I just want to see my daughter just to make sure that that is my daughter. I just went to there were speier's control what into the whites Vilbert. She could police twenty one year old Samantha young was found dead. It's out of home, which just not street. Police say a person of interest has been placed in these custody. Samantha staff Theodore young still trying to process losing his youngest child. She's my baby. So she's very mother. She's very person in a. Sometimes, you know, daughters things. So you know you gotta get mad sometimes but. Just all around. Great person tonight. Police are not releasing information up about this situation and they have not released any information about the person of interest. They haven't custody right now. So I do pretty much everything in my power to look and feel as young as possible. But, you know, sometimes you just have to realize you can't turn back the clock. And that's because a lot of the common signs of aging is due to a decline in your body's production of human growth, hormone or aids. She age but there is good news. Thanks to one of our sponsors that I am so excited about, and that is Ciro vital. So Cerro vital is clinically shown to increase your body's natural production of HGH, two levels closer to what you experience in your twenties. And thirties since you're Terry, Glenn drastically slows production after the age of twenty five their newest scientific breakthrough Cerro vital advanced delivers all the benefits of their original formula, plus accelerated skin improvements in weight loss, and as little as fifteen days and not only that users experience, more energy, improved mood, better sleep and reduce cravings. That sounds good to me. And this is with no added hormones or harmful. Goals. So if you guys want to check him out, text first degree to two four six eight one zero to get seventy dollars off of Ciro vital advanced. That's text first degree to two four six eight one zero to get seventy dollars off. So the victim in this case is Sammy young. She was twenty one years old. She graduated from eastern York high school in twenty twelve she played field hockey all four years of high school. She did art. She loved reading she loved animals. She would always save animals and the biggest thing was that she was the best mother that any any child could ever ask for. Right. And so the resident of the home that the police were called to whereas Marcus Bordeaux on, and he was immediately, arrested and taken into custody and charged with Sammy's homicide, and right away, he starts confessing in laying out the disgusting in my opinion events that led to Sammy's murder. And let's start with how Sammy ended up in that home, so Marcus Lord Sammy to his chestnut street home by telling her something was wrong with our Tara, who is there? One year old daughter, who is visiting staying with him the night before. And he told officers that he and Sami ended up getting into a verbal argument that escalated when she was inside of the home, and when she tried to leave the house, he used a knife to keep her from leaving and see me was initially subdued by the stun gun that Marcus had used on her, and he used it, obviously from keeping her from running out of the house, when she realized she was in danger, bright. And we're going to kind of, backtrack a little bit and get into the background of their relationship. So. They started dating a few years prior and Marcus ended up getting Sammy pregnant, which obviously makes the relationship more serious immediately and six months before semi was murdered Samiun Marcus purchased the house that Marcus was living in together at the house in rights Phil, but the stress of moving in them being so young and having a new baby causing us to get pretty contentious between the couple and the police were called a couple of times citing domestic violence in incidences. And Marcus actually it was arrested for slashing Sammy's tires after an argument that they had gotten into. So they live in the same house for about a month before. Sammy ended up moving back in her family, Marcus and wanna break up and Sammy was the one that ended up ending their relationship, but shortly after the break-up Sammy started dating, somebody knew a guy named James horn and Sammy. It was apparently pretty excited about the new relationship, so after they break up Marcus. Falls back into the arms of his old girlfriend, and they were sort of on again off again. Her name is Natasha, Stover and tasha has been described as kind compassionate polite. She worked at Pizza Hut as a part time server. And she also attended college at Lebanon valley college, she wanted to be a physical therapist. But when she became involved with Marcus, not Natasha, and her friend said she noticeably changed. She started becoming manipulative and abusive and at the time Natasha was dating Marcus. And police said that Marcus had multiple girlfriends at the same time so I can see this kind of guy from a mile away. He's like he's like a high school boy, where it's like, oh, you're you're messing with girls in different grades, you're making you feel crazy in at the time was probably like pitting, the girls against. Ecksteen like this happened all the time in my high school. Right. And they just grow up to be adult boys. Which is fine they exist. We need them to appreciate the good ones, but I can see that. That's obviously is what Marcus is. Right. So for our connection today, we have Brooke, who was best friends with an tasha Stover growing up. And she was, obviously also in the same school as Marcus and knew him as one of her best friends boyfriends for many years. Tasha was a really good friend growing up. We did a lotta sports together. And also a thing in our school choir together. And so she was really nice. And sweet the whole time growing up definitely. She I she was about my height issue is pretty average high five five five six, I'm Shannon, really strong body type. She also through shop and played softball. So you can kinda get that, that feel of how she looks that way growing up. Like I said, really nice her family was always at all of our events super carrying she was only definitely a little bit more insecure than kind of everybody else who I was friends with, but other than that she pretty much set right. In can't say she had I think Marcus might have been the first boyfriend that she had always let something about mother, her kind of growing up. But other than that she was pretty standard high school. Girl. I think I met Natasha and maybe second or third grade. And then this was all the way up in. I think ninth grade is when she met him. I can't remember exactly too much about when it started. But I know that which are talking about this relationship everyone was a little bit confused, Marcus in appearance was pretty small guy, and so just by high school. Sandra clayton. Exactly physically, like stand out as a couple that you would expect and other than that it was definitely a weird relationship. She kind of got overly involved in that, like kid kind of Jovan headfirst into that. So she definitely got a little bit more removed. Some more are the longer that they dated remember, she talked about her and Hannah having a lot of sex. And I mean, we were fourteen that wasn't the norm at least where I am from Nazi many of us for doing that. So we were nobody really had a lot of background or experience to kind of. Talk with her about that stuff. Like I said, she did cheat at sports around. She was really into that she was strong, and I, she seemed really excited about her future, and about all of that, until she got involved with Marcus. And then I think her dreams got a little smaller, but definitely it was strange. A lot of us didn't really get it. But we did just kind of listen, she seemed happy. So we didn't interfere too much my older sister actually overlapped with all of us in high school for one year. She was in a pretty different crowds on the idea that cross country and chorus and everything. And so I did a lot of the same things that Natasha was doing and my older sister was kind of a sound so kind of wildly different sides of that factor. And weirdly enough, we both knew of Marcus mostly just because he kind of was pretty stand offish, and Dave, everybody strange by. So it was kind of overlap that we have. They're like I said, he was kind of smaller stature, and really quiet. And he, I honestly went went to school for a few years, like I said, we live in similar areas of our town. And I honestly to this day don't think I've ever heard him say, any words just really quiet. And the group buddy outweigh was really outspoken and bubbly. And then he always kind of seemed like he was up to no good. He only her back, her look on his face and just didn't ever say anything. So obviously Natasha Marcus seemed to have one of these relationships that we've all kind of observed in high school, those people who are together throughout the duration of high school. And it's really tumultuous thing, and he obviously, it's point cheats on her with Sammy gets her pregnant, and he decided to actually try things with Sammy, and that's going to be kind of devastating. So I was curious. And I asked Brooke, I mean that's upsetting. And how did on a tasha handled up. Seemed like Natasha thought that she was still with him. She talked about him cheating on her with these other girls, one of them being Sammy, but from the outside it definitely looked like Marcus was with Sammy, but the tasha didn't seem to know that their relationship with over. She was she was definitely really upset about the pregnancy. And like I said he she's not like he was cheating on her in hindsight. I think he probably was freeing her along a little bit. I think that he may be didn't make it as clear as he showed them that, that wasn't gonna continue, especially if he was buying a house, and having a baby with somebody else, definitely, it doesn't seem like he made that like he told her this is done, I'm doing this now. But yeah. She, she definitely didn't come to school every single day. She was visibly upset a lot more withdrawn than she used to be. And I was at our high school problem in two thousand fourteen which I'm not sure exactly. When Marcus actually graduated, but I know that he was supposed to graduate in two thousand and twelve and Sammy and traveling twelve as well from a different school. And I know that they have planned to be at that problem. So it was kind of a weird. They were. Still very much in highschool, even though they were out of high school. There is nothing worse than when you get your hair dyed and your szeswith your color. And then in weeks, it just fades in his old dole, and it sucks. 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Com slash I and use promo code I to get a free sample of their war winning dry shampoo with your purchase. That's living proof dot com slash I and use promo code I to get a free sample of their dry shampoo with your purchase. Okay. So that was kind of the layout of Natasha in Marcus Marcus's relationship. But let's refresh where we are now in the investigation, Marcus is in custody. Same. He has been murdered stabbed multiple times in the police are in the throes of kind of the preliminary investigation phase and they're trying to wrap their heads around kind of this tangled web of relationships that Marcus has created an entangled himself in so they know Marcus has a girlfriend, named tasha, you know, that he is a baby with Sammy, and she's the focus of this investigation. And of course, they want to speak with Natasha because they wanna just know they want to gather all the information, the Ken. But it's becoming clear that Marcus is kind of dating several several women at once and they know that they have a lot to deconstruct yet. And as the interrogation is going on a woman walks in the walks into the riceville borough police department and her name is Lacey sour, and she says, you know what I was dating Marcus? Okay. Now that one. I am dating my. And you know what I'm pregnant with his child. But that's not all. She says that you know what? Marcus sent me a text message on April eighteenth which said simply. Quote, I'm going to kill someone. So obviously the next thing in the cops do they're pulling up his text records, seeking the April eighteenth is a is a day before Sammy's. Martyrdom murderer. Yeah, exactly. So obviously what they find is going to be disturbing. And they I found these normal tax conversations between him and Natasha, they're talking about dinner plans or talking about classes, and in between that they find some tax about them conspiring to kill more than one person and the first exchange that they find out Marcus was asking tasha about incapacitating someone with demerara, which is a pain medication in addition to chloroform. And then over the course of the next few months, they were conspiring to kill not only Sammy, but her boyfriend James Horne. So those aren't the only two people that he is talking about killing they're also talking about killing lacy sour the. Current girlfriend current other girlfriends. Okay. So he's he wants to kill Sami. He wants to James horn, and he wants to lazy. Okay. I they were, there were small Denny tax that I was just like shocked that I mean, people make those little comments like, oh, I wanna kill him. And you're just like okay, 'cause it's not most of the time, it's not serious. But then when it's a whole conversation with plans. It is definitely not feeling like why was why did that never kick in, like, hey, this is wrong. We're not actually going to do this, or, and then also just kinda from the other side of things devil's advocate like it was just very obvious to leave that tax trail. So batches struck me odd q, that's like the easiest way to get yourself in trouble. When you're planning all this horrible stuff that it just seemed really disgusting. But also like kind of stupid at the same time, like not well-thought-out, not at all the person that I knew to be Natasha. And like I said, we grew we kind of grew apart. They've last couple of years in high school, just maybe back and forth between where I lived then and my hometown. But was not at all. Then trash, I knew that wasn't something that I could ever. Even Sodom her saying in seriousness, or, and just getting sucked into this. I really was shocked and almost in disbelief, but she would be involved in that not just. Like by chance, but kind of willingly and wantonly. So the first plan that Natasha, Marcus seemed to have put any real thought into was this conspiracy to kill Sammy's boyfriend James Horne so per the tax. It seemed that Natasha originally, devised a plan to follow James home from the local bowling alley, and kill him though. The plan never came to fruition police said that in preparation to carry out the plan Marcus bought bleach cable ties a lock and a baseball bat at a local, WalMart. So, again, buying them, all at the same time from the same store, only by a bad on your way to, like the practically baseball in their CCTV, catching you to do it only by. He probably or, or look around your house. You should have far from your mom for the love to give anybody ideas by. After picking up the supplies, he expresses his anger, with Sammy, and asks, can we do this thing soon? Let's go and talk to tells Marcus that she's fine with that. But told him to figure out same as work schedule in order for us to start somewhere. She wants a starting place for this, too. Oh, how are we going to kick this thing off? So Marcus sends Natasha a text. Which says, I don't know who to do. I actually says ID k who to do first Lacey or Sammy. And in the message back Natasha writes back that she knows that Marcus wants to kill Sami more than Lacey. But that Natasha herself wants to kill lacy more than Sammy. So this is your sort of typical lover spat when it comes to psychopathic lovers. So texting the they, she says to him, I d b k so I don't know, because I'll do this for you. Yes, I don't know because you need me. They're like for the other half with the car. So she's kind of laying it over him. Gary. Don't do it without me. And so can starting continue with the conversation. Natasha tells Barca's. That she doesn't want it to do it on on by himself. She wants to be there. And the police are going to see them talking about the murder, and their tax messages, which they really should have talked about beforehand. Don't talk about that in the text messages. Don't talk. Don't talk about how police are going to talk about fight club. So she continues on insistent, the whole thing is going to take really, really careful planning and to avoid getting caught. She warned him that, you know, you're going to be the prime suspect. So we really need to be careful with all of this. So let's contest they're talking now. Now text. That's just insane. Real. So two days later at twelve fifty in the morning. Their tax are continuing Marcus texted Natasha to say that Sami was at his house, and he asked should I do it. Now. Natasha replied that she didn't know Mark Azan told Natasha that he can quote can do it now and leave from the basement and put her car in the carpool spot. Natasha said she didn't want him to do it alone. And in a series of falling messages, she repeatedly asked Marcus to wait for her in warned that he would be caught. It's just so weird to beg somebody to want to be involved in a murder. Like I want to do this. Don't you without they don't go to this cool new bar without me. It's like I can't wait till we get to the point of this discussion where we get into the minds of these people because it's like they totally lost sight of reality. It's odd. It's very so then at one twenty five in the morning. Marcus sends a tax saying, I'm sorry. I can't I'm going to do it soon. And Amen later police say that he called a tasha and told her to come to his house. So. All in all the police found more than fifteen thousand texts between tasha and Marcus discussing the planning of these murders over the course of months, then surprisingly after this Marcus is already in custody. Natasha was arrested and charged for the part. She played in San me's murder, too. A second arrest is made in the death of a twenty one year old York county, mother and the details are disturbing. And this is the home where Samantha Young's body was found. It's boarded up now her ex boyfriend lived here. He was arrested shortly after her death in April. But now believes her saying this case involves several other people three people who could have also been killed, and one other who police say helped plan Young's debt, six pages is on the longer side for charging documents. But that's how much needs to be explained about the second arrest and this Amanda, young barter, the twenty one year old's body was found locked in a shed at her ex boyfriend's home in writes, fill in April. Marcus borderline was arrested. The two had a one year old daughter together. Now, Natasha's Stover also from York county is locked up charged with attempted homicide and conspiracy. Police paperwork, outlines text messages between Stover and board. Awin spanning four months outlining the pairs plans to kill three people. James Horne was first. He was young new boyfriend. Police had the payer stake, down his routines Boardman, even bought bleach cable ties a lock and baseball bat. According to police text messages retrieved on the phones include quote, I just want this guy gone. I want her to feel how miserable I was when all of this happened, but then the plant shifted young police say stove was not at home when he killed young but did buy supplies to clean up blood and help move her car a woman at stover's home. Did not want to speak with us. A third almost victim lacy sour did speak to us online. Documents say Boorda win and Stover also talked about killing her. She was Boorda wins current girlfriend who is now pregnant, it's all just really tragic, and scary tonight. Now, both Stover and Boardman are in New York county prison. You know you're an adult when you're spending your entire weekend looking for. New comforter online. 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They learned that Natasha, went with Marcus to move Siamese car after the murder, she the park and ride along route thirty in Pennsylvania after the murder, and she drove him to Home Depot to buy a bag of agricultural lime to bricks into bottles of bleach tub clean the blood in the house, would he do with line line. What's out of line? Use to clean. No, no, no. Use it to clean, but it also disintegrates so you put lime on bodies. It's kind of like acid than it. What are the brands for that? Don't know one of the bricks for ability to bricks. I don't know. I don't know what to what you would do with two bricks line bleach. That's well the police is probably for the blood or whatever. But the bricks are confusing here anyways, so you're Tosh is in custody, and she eventually starts just confessing. Yeah. And she starts singing. Yes. She starts telling one of the officers obviously the first thing that's going to say is that I'm proud to Marxist child as one does. But we know the article that we pull this info from they weren't able to confirm whether or not that was true or not. And then we never saw anything. Right. So whether that's sure not unchargeable. So she's charged with homicide. She's charged with tampering with evidence abusive a corpse obstruction and then criminal conspiracy on each count. Marcus is charged with first degree murder kidnapping tampering with evidence obstructing the administration of law, and abusive corpse and conspiracy, and they're both held your Kenny, prison Nobel, and they're waiting a preliminary hearing. All right. So what do we think as far as motives? All right. Well, let me just point one thing out is that. So Natasha was. All right. Let's talk about how James Horne Sammy's new boyfriend was the first target. And it's like as a Natasha. If Tom you wanna kill your new your ex girlfriend's new boyfriend, like, why am I think she was just going along with it to kind of get the other people involved because it's like she from Natasha's mind? She obviously just wants to get rid of any sort of threat in her relationship, which why she wanted to get rid of lacy more than Sammy, because at least he's pregnant hurriedly is probably the most recent ex. Yeah. Sammy had a baby the baby was a year old. So that's like a lesser threat because it's like yeah. A year as path. But maybe she was just jumping on the bandwagon, if he like hated this James Horan guy. And it was like, okay. It just means that he's still cares about Sammy. Oh, definitely for sure. But the fact that she'd be like cool. You're still you're angry at your old, right? I'll excess people are very young. I know. But that wouldn't you feel like why are you sorry? All right. So when you were a seventeen year old, and if you're with a boy that you liked, and the boy said, I wanna kill my ex girlfriend's boyfriend. Yeah. And you were really, really into him what would you do? I mean I wouldn't go. I understand that. Twenty one okay. Younger. But it's okay. Obviously motive is just jealousy in everybody is weird way not understanding the consequences of your actions. Like the fact that they were all they had fifteen thousand text messages between the two of them talking about this murder, but then also being like, well, maybe we shouldn't be texting about is like they just don't understand the severity of what they're going to do or maybe never intended to do it. I mean you start buying stuff. I feel like I mean the fifteen thousand text messages, maybe some of them once you start buying shit. It gets real. It can be it can be construed as that. And that's one of the reasons why that, you know, with with Hansen vs predator and all that stuff. They always Hansen with the. Yeah. Predator, but it was called handsome vs predator on, on crunch down. Well, it was so the last version of it. So they always would tell the purpose who were coming to bring stuff, so they would the equal. Yes, yes. The girl would cookies. So they would always bring Mike's hard lemonade and McDonald's and condoms, and they would come in because that showed intent. So I hear what you're saying at the text messages. Exactly. So, so, so, bringing that it's not just like, oh, always assessing around with the text messages, seeing them, actually buying stuff. That is like, all right. That's one step closer to you really want to just this like. Just this like sick twisted fantasy between the two item. Exactly. And I did ask Brooke, why she thoughts each of them? What each of the roles were like why did Marcus want to kill Sami and how to Natasha get involved in to what degree was she involved? I think that it was probably a mix of, of anger and jealousy, going back to Marcus's personality as a whole really quiet, but he's definitely got that air of aggression. So I think he probably was just angry that I don't actually I don't exactly know how him and Sammy split up, but I think he was probably angry that they weren't together Homer, and angry that. He had this baby with her, and that she was kind of moving on, and leaving that piece of her life behind. And then I think just touching back on the tasha like I said growing up she was always really insecure. And I think she just found Marcus who were able to at least convince her, that he loved her so much and he was the best thing for her. And I think she really just fed into that. And she believes that, that was the best that she could get. And that he was everything she needed. And I think she really was just willing to do anything in her power to keep keep Marcus in her life. And so, I think that's probably how she justified it and how she got herself involved in that mess was. That little bit of teenage girl, and security mixed with having that manipulative relationship from what I read he kind of Lord her an with the babies saying the baby needed her, and I don't, I don't personally have any kids, but I am one of six sisters. And so I just can't even like it makes me sick every time I even think about it because no one is just not going to go. And then I don't know just her family seems so. They didn't even know where to put that Greece. It was just so much surrounding it. I didn't know Sammy, but of course, like I said at that time, I mean, Facebook was huge but getting kind of the facts from these news articles, but also the reaction from people that they were people that didn't know her people from all sides of the story, and it just seemed like the entire town, even extending pass out to the town where where she was just seemed like they were screaming her not only for her life, but also the circumstance because that is something that I think, really could happen to any young woman or man with a child. You say they need. You you're gonna go out of the way that Marcus killed. Sammy is intense. I mean, sounding someone that many times is not. He stopped someone wants and a lot of people are like oh shit. I what did I just do? But stabbed him that many times in a row is almost like you almost have to be in a in a state. You're not in your right mind. When you do that. And so just imagining all of that play out is really like the most intense part of it for me. Marcus goes to trial. I and initially pleads not guilty to the charges against him including first degree murder kidnapping tampering with evidence obstructing the administration of law, abusive a corpse and conspiracy, but due to the cruel and gruesome mater of the crime and the conspiracy, and planning, he was facing the Libdeh the death penalty that is the sound of the death penalty. Yeah, that's stressful. The death penalty though, in fact was not is not that common Pennsylvania. So, but with this says is like this is their taking it really seriously because it was such a brutal disgusting thing to do. Yeah. The, the notifications whenever something new came out. But really, it just kinda stressed me out imagining her in, in this situation. Someone my own age that shared a lot of caracteristics that we did all these things together. It's kind of, like gave me an overall sense of anxiety anytime I thought about it. So I didn't follow it incredibly closely. I did check in on it every few months to see what had been decided for both of them. But mostly kind of on the side of Natasha. And then, of course when they brung around the death penalty for Marcus, I kind of started following a little bit more closely because I know that's not a super common punishment in Pennsylvania. So definitely was interested in seeing how all of that played out. I haven't exactly made up my own opinion on the death penalty yet, but I don't think it would have been unfair, especially just. How many how many lives he really affected not just him and tasha and Sammy, and the baby not just the people directly involved in this crime? But also all of the people in Sammy's life, all of the people in the tasha of life that he, he took as to from. And so I don't think it would have been an unfair punishment. But I don't know that I can say that. I think he deserved it, but definitely was a little bit shocking to imagine somebody that I knew up against that death penalty. So as Jack. She had a premonition about it, and she predicted that due to the fact that the death penalty was on the table. The psychic Marcus pled guilty to the charges against him presumably to avoid that. So he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for the first degree murder of Sammy young, who was also sentenced concurrently to ten to twenty years for conspiracy to commit obstruction of Justice in six to twelve months for abuse of a corpse. So he's not getting out of jail, but he did decide to speak in court. After sentencing, and he said that he hopes his guilty plea in sentence will help bring closure to Sammy's family continuing, quote, I refuse to seek professional help out of shame for what other people would think of me I'm truly sorry for myself choices. I have searched the depths of myself, I can't say how or why let myself commit this? Unbearable. Every car comes with its fair share of stories that ding in your bumper. When you nervously picked up a first date or the luxury package, you got a big promotion or the mileage that you save by riding your bike all summer. And while you can't put a price tag on your stories now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade it in. So all you have to do is go to truecar you simply enter your license plate number, and you watch how all your cars details pop up. Then you answer a few questions, navigation and moon roof will watch they bump up your value. If you have high mileage, you already knew that's going to cost you. But now, you know exactly how much danger wallet. So you can plan ahead and we like to plan ahead as adults right? So once you're finished you'll get a true cash offer sent in minutes, which you can take your local certified dealer to cash out or trade in. So when you're ready to experience a better way to sell trade in your car, check out truecar today and truecar cash offer is not available in all areas. Natasha also pleads guilty to criminal conspiracy to commit first degree murder obstructing the administration of law. She was sentenced to twelve and a half to twenty five years, and the jail time for Natasha. And Marcus doesn't bring Sammy back and now Marcus and Sammy's baby has no parents, and that, I mean that's the biggest travesty of the entire story and Lacey. Sour was again still pregnant, and he's shirt left a trail. Yeah. So he's got a baby with Sammy who now has no family Samy was twenty one years old. And I mean Lord knows what kind of future, she could have had Natasha's life is ruined. I mean she's involved. I'm not absolving her responsibility in this, but Lisi's pregnant with his baby and her baby doesn't have a father and the his actions have a ripple effect that. TD on that. Like parents. Children without supervision without parents have more likelihood of getting into trouble themselves. It's just a fact absoulutely, and the, the idea that this is even though they were twenty one. It's young love doing anything. You can for the person that you love. And this is somebody that these, these warrant twenty or relationships these were fairly newer relationships. What are you guys see with that, have you ever been in a relationship, or you're dislike? You know what I was so into this guy if he would've told me to do something not necessarily murder, but possibly murder out of go ahead. Oh, I don't think so. I was I was never in love number one thousand just never happened in my mind, but I also was never in love when I was young, I was never in like a crazy all encompassing situation like that. When I was young, I was between, like Jackie observing my relationships that I was just like. I was just like, yeah, you are all in all in, but not there is nothing. There is an healthiness in that, like I was a masochistic. Murder, but he wasn't even a shitty enough guy for that. Like there is no one thing, anyone to do anything illegal, and that's like it comes down commonsense like you'd get involved with somebody that would talk about that. I was just like okay by unspeakable. We look at the one the thing that's reminding me here, it is completely different. But when you think about the one story that they make us read that make everybody read in junior high or high school is Romeo, and Juliet. Right. And you got to you didn't. Okay. The color purple. All right boat. We read we read. Yeah, we know it. But I think that was. That was in my time in the fifteen hundred. Experience it real time. Are you? No, I'm not Romeo dies. That's the thing spoiler alert. Romeo dies guys too, because they both decide through a weird wacky set of circumstances that if they can't be with each other. They should just kill themselves. And it's, it's, it's so strange that they let us read those books, and I wonder if they're letting kids read those books because. Did you? Hey, this is what you do suicide. Yeah. This is what you do. And I remember they had us watch this movie which was great because eighth grade. They have is watching this movie, and there is a total boop shot. And there's a bunch shot in there. And my teacher was so embarrassed that she was like so upset and just like how did you not know that this was this was here, but everything was just like them rally as into. Lerman the buzzer. Another one. It was basically that was the sequel to my so called life. What was firm Angelou the sequel has it had cleared incident? Oh, I was thinking, Jared Leto as he wasn't in that movie. Jordan Carolina was done in that movie. He was in the joker movie which is not the joker anymore, by the way. Yeah. Exactly. Story of good way in that basically, though, we get back to this is something I talked to Brooke about over and over in that like what, what suck them in, like, what suck Natasha and it was like, insecurity. First boyfriend, you know, you're so impressionable at that age. And it's like you're, you're figuring out your if it's your I love your like trying to traverse, you have all these hormones and feelings and. Your brain. A matter of like their children, dealing with very adult things like the fact that like an attaches five year on again off again. Relationship boyfriend. He's having a baby with someone and someone else, pregnant, those are very adult serious things with a juvenile mind. Right. And you're like your reaction to that, like as an adult I'm a level headed person, and that would still be really upsetting. If like someone cheated on me and got someone pregnant and a really Radic, untrained emotional mind. I mean, I think she's just acting through her feelings, and it's like I wish that person didn't exist, right? Because I mean that would be really hard for any of us in this room. Jack. But that's the thing that snowball though, it's like you saying that once and then opening up that door. And then as that as the snowball goes out the door and it keeps rolling down the hill and you start planning and you start doing this, and it's like how do you pull away from that? I also wonder at what point especially on her, and like at one what point did it go from kind of, like, again, like fantasy spiracy kind of this never happened. And then all of a sudden, you're, you're buying line. Now, you're you're to your lives for her. Did she ever want to back out? But then, again, she was the one that kept saying, don't do it without me. Does she want to stop did? She not want to happen. So she don't. It doesn't have so much control that she's I don't want to go against this plan because because I love. And it's also like mutiny like he'll stop trusting me. Maybe I'll kill dude. He's trying to get off his girlfriend's. He's coming after you. You know it's one of those things, but. The idea that like Jack and I text all the time we vent, whatever I want to kill so. Right. So that's what I was thinking tiles minds, like, does it start there, then it goes to, like, yeah. Okay. But how would we do it? If we talked about this in the fat Reynolds case, yeah. Way back where Thad and Michelle, I think, name was words like how we'd poison their spaghetti like it starts with hypotheticals like harmless. We'd never actually do. Line into. Is it when you buy something that's a, that's a really interesting question. So when you guys when you guys are texting each other, and saying, I want to kill this person. Yes. Yes. Who cares? You're right. Don't think about them anymore. You're right. You're right. Okay. Sometimes you might say, what if there was an accident or something like that? Getting getting more filling with Phillies projects. That's a launch from Seinfeld. But when it goes to you're exactly right. When you go towards something that is showing intent, which is purchasing something or something to die. I wonder how how. If you're not a psychopath, and, like you, you have human emotions and you understand I, I hope that they understand the consequences of an act like murder, like, what are you thinking? When you're doing that, when you are typing in those were, and I think it's if it's just the person, I think they would pull back, I think if to people. Hard. I think Marcus is the. Yeah, but it's a sort of I think they're playing off each other, and they don't necessarily want. Nobody wants to tell the other person that they're punking out for, for the sake of conversation. These people in Marcus's orbit, none of Natasha's people Natasha Zach, this is Marcus other girlfriend who's pregnant as other girlfriend is girlfriend who has a baby with the girlfriends. These aren't Natasha's people, and I feel like she's. She's responsible, and I'm not absolving her of her her role in this, but I feel like a MO she's been emotionally hijacked in that she so committed to this in, like she's a child and was like, whatever he wants type thing, and he's obviously with so interesting. They talk about him being so small or whatever. But, like he's got all these women wrapped around his finger to me the way it reads out. Maybe they did talk about casually in in the way. Like I said, sometimes people are angry and may say things they obviously, don't mean would never followed through for most people, I think that probably started and then Spyros almost like it was something that he had to do, and that's kind of how it reads to me. And then I think maybe was naive and immature and didn't realize it was going to happen until it did. And then she was involved and didn't really have a way out. I think the most tragic piece of this would have to be just. The ability of that Sami had, I guess, situation, she was put in, and it's such an easy one that anyone would do any person with a child with a niece and nephew. Even someone says they need you and you've got and you don't obviously, you don't go thinking you're going to get killed thinking that this person that is supposed to love child as much as you do is planning to her or till you for whatever reason, I think just this act that it wasn't random, but it really could happen to anybody is just the most tragic piece of this. And then now baby is left without a mother or father and kind of has to carry this weight that she shouldn't have ever had to carry. So, of course, Sammy's family was devastated by losing her. And they decided to pay tribute to her in a really cute in special way. It was a group of us, it was my aunt, my brother, which is Samantha's brother. And my one step sister. We just decided we wanted to get something before Samantha's funeral. So we each got that domestic violence tattoo. My brother got one with punching bags on top of it on his chest. My stepsister got one on her ankle with beads around, and I just got one with a halo just fishy is up there. Watching us. I'll never forget Sammy, but it's a constant remembrance of the fight that she went through to go through this horrible. And it's for somebody else to look at remember to constant remembrance of her to be there with us. And I didn't get a date because I don't want to remember the day, she passed away anything like that. I just wanna remember her as the unique, colorful Phoenix that she is. Well, I cried on him after my tattoo, and I like I look at it. A lot and think about it, it just it means. So the question obviously is it's always this be prevented. Because takeaway on this podcast is very important. She was really insecure. I think Marcus was really her first her first friend and. Hon, I've pulled her in and she she believes it, and I think that comes from that young immaturity, and insecurity. I think. If she had met him now, maybe she would not have had that, same feeling she probably wouldn't have believed that was the end all the over her. But we were so young when she met him and so young much crime occurred that I really think it can be chalked up just that immaturity. And insecurity is in so many high school girls. Yeah. I think I mean not that there's any one thing that could have stopped. But I think their relationship with ongoing a long relationship between Marcus. And there were all pretty pretty stereotypical red flags of manipulation. And, and I think that we caught more people about it, and we made it less taboo topic. I think if more people what to look for resources out there for people who are in situations and could have maybe been stopped if there was someone who knew more into what, how about herself or how Marcus become had become such a big piece of her life, afford center or life that maybe they could have helped her that helps regain that confidence you realize. I don't need to be involved in with someone who has. Thoughts feelings and want to actions. I think that if we knew a little bit more about what to look for and how to help people when we do see it. I think that would be the cautionary tale if any. Brooke mentioned, you know. She doesn't know if it could be prevented she thinks tasha involvement could have been Natasha's, the loss of future. Could've been spared. Right. And I guess the question on my mind is, do you think if Natasha wasn't involved in kind of egging him on his the wrong word, but, like supporting him in Ebeling, and enabling him would the outcome have been the same or do you think that he would have a question that you have with couple killers? Yes, that would they have done this on their own? You see that with Charles stark, weather, and Caroline, Fugate, which was the subject of the, the Nebraska from. From Bruce Springsteen, I know that Jared knows the song Nebraska from Bruce Springsteen but you guys. But even like the Barbie Barbie killers. It's always would they have done? This was this eight combustible thing where they were. They were these two ingredients that were benign by themselves, and they get together. They become exposed. I'd be interested to see. More of those tax message exchanges between them to see who seemed like they were kind of leading the conversation. Well, it's one of those things where it's like these were all people in kind of Marcus's thing like Marx's girlfriend, Margaret world. Right. But like did Natasha's jealousy of the people also feed into it. That's what I'm wondering. I mean. Yeah, because we're kind of talking about them before where obviously is more to blame for many reasons, but as he was there in tasha wasn't there when it happened. Right. As he was the one that stabbed stopped her. So it was it was kind of fantasy for her until she helped after the fact, helping to move the car and helping to buy stuff to clean it up. Yeah. Is is bad. And you're also kind of in survival mode of like helping your man like Bonnie and CLYDE, and I'm probably you're feeling really bonded and those moments you're like baby mamas gone. It's gusting. But when you actually look at who did what I mean there's a reason he got life without parole. And she got twelve twenty five years, of course. Yeah. And they're probably taking all this into account. Absolutely. Definitely. I mean, none of us feel good about this case. And it's, it's another example of this domestic violence. I'm not going to call it a trend because it's not a trend. It's been happening. Over and we, we see it. We see a like a peak of it, and most of the cases, we cover and it's never. Okay. And it's never going to be okay. And we're happy to shed light on that same. You didn't have to die. That's for sure. Her daughter didn't have to not have a mom Lacey's kid didn't have to not have a dad. You know, and it's just stop domestic violence. I mean it's so depressing. Imagine losing your life at twenty one anything. Gosh, don't realize how you are. How did our first reconnection reach out to us, Brooke? I think found some Instagram Email, I can't remember you guys it all blends together. But Brooke, we appreciate you so much. Thank you. You are an incredible interview. And I really we all really appreciate it. Yeah. We actually really enjoy covering these lesser known cases and bringing light to stories that might have otherwise been so reach out to us. Yeah. If you have a story and leave us a review on itunes because we are in the though. Alexis cannot be stopped contrary to. She cannot be stunned Terry to. Reviews. Yeah. She can't. Until next time. Keep your friends close, but not that close. Universal Orlando resort plunges you into unimaginable realms of horror at the world's premier Halloween event Halloween horror nights, selects nights, September six through November second on event nights at Universal Studios, Florida when the sun goes down the mutants and the monsters rise up filling the theme park with the sounds of endless screams from cinematic classics and current Colt favorites to the park's original bomb nations, every year, universal Orlando brings the work of the greatest names in horror to life exploring credibly detailed haunted houses. Each theme, two different horror icons this year, including an all new house that takes you into the world of Netflixing stranger things two and three you'll make your way through. Darkened scares owns with ghoulish, creature's around every turn, you'll enjoy outrageous, live entertainment, and you can experience the thrills and excitement of many of Universal Studios, and most popular rides and attracts. Face your deepest fears in step inside your worst nightmares Halloween horror nights. Select nights six through November second. For more information visit Halloween horror nights dot com. Trump and trade. I'm Tim Maguire, the AP newsman is the Trump administration was draws terrorists and steel aluminum from Canada Mexico, both countries say, they'll lift retaliatory tariffs on US goods clearing a hurdle for new trade agreement between the three nations. President Trump says the end of the terrace is good for all three countries, spin, charging us extremely high tariffs as much as two hundred eighty five percent or more for our agricultural products. The Missouri house passes a ban on abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy. Governor Mike Parsons, I've been pretty clear where I've been from day, one on right to live several other states have also passed so called fetal heartbeat laws. Today's action follows Alabama's passage of a Bill making performing an abortion of felony in nearly all cases Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has defied a subpoena from House Ways and means committee, chairman. Demanding six years of President Trump's tax returns committee, chairman Richard Neal says they're likely to go to court next week. I'm Tim Maguire.

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Episode 34: Michelle Lavin

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

Episode 34: Michelle Lavin

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree the first degree. You're supposed to have it in movies, not real life. I think that we were kind of in hiding for like two two and a half weeks. And I do remember being in my grandparents house, and how many time didn't see them a lot. But you my sister. We're told if you see your data neighborhood while you're out playing come home immediately run. Don't stay don't talk to them. Run. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and next to Billy Jensen. And today is what Billy happy American circus day. Oh my God. One out of all of them. Yes. Why, why? Because demos coming on. Bo is coming looks like depressing movie, and he's, they made them to cute. But no, I was thinking more about German. Casey. Oh, obviously, obviously, it's also happy fish fingers, and custard did that's the one that I was looking at Mike. How does that even become a thing in general? And then had over to Shay. Yeah. Doesn't British but I will say probably one that everybody can relate to on this Wednesday. It's national don't go to work unless it's fun day. That's Jack's life. I know. And that's why I'm here because it's a fun workday. Yeah. Motto is puke in rally can rally I'm puking early professional either way. I went somebody posted a bunch of your a link to all of your old picks. And I had no idea my old, my space, my space in the Email picks had no I had no idea for Google crush on me now. And no. You guys don't. I will get a rash of messages. It becomes my problem. Everybody only all already thinks, I'm in love with Billy because I make fun of him. But they don't realize that I make fun of everyone. Yeah, the no, the I was very impressed. I mean, that was some hardcore emot- it right. There was a scene Queen athletic her, and Jared, or the king, and the Queen of the Email. Yeah. What can I say? Yeah. You're also unlike who she dating or whatever, like that aren't going deep Google. It was right there. You are. Third wheel kick me out of this podcast. It's Billy Jackson love podcasts. I'm maybe probably get more downloads than we get now. Sure. Can we talk about how Billy shows up every day when we podcast with just beers? Fears it has an as in my little man bag satchel. And here's the reason behind that. And I think it comes we're gonna get psycho local for a second. So my father used to take me to ball ballgames. He would we would have a but Oculus, and he would take the binoculars out the binoculars case and he would put three Budweiser's in the binoculars case to sneak into the into the game. So he would drink three on the way to the game because that's what you did back then drank beer in the car, the legal with, and then you and then he would sneak those in and I would carry them. So like the people wouldn't say anything because it's like, what did not going to search a kid, and then he went. Mmediately in jail now. He would be so pissed at sports right now. We would always either buy tickets from scalpers or give the usher twenty dollars and get to the front seats and everything. But yet you can learn more about him in my audiobook, which is out on. Wow. It's all tied up on his audience. You brought up the beer but they were eleven culture starches with me. But I, I will say, yes, and it is, yeah. There is. There is very much a part of a big part of it is in the beginning, is me and my dad, and then he passes away. Well, since you are plugging things shamelessly. Do you wanna put your other podcast to? Yes. Jack my other podcast called Jensen and holes the murder squad. Jensen hold sounds like a porno. Yeah. Well, you know, BJ at holes was taken. So we had to. What even hall? Put a bit in Sweden EJ and a whole. Yes. So if you want to actually solve crimes with us that is the podcast, check out, and you're not allowed very serious on that one. Yeah. I'm not joking on that. When there's no days that I talk about. But there is a we do we do talk about something called the weekly distraction, where we talk about what we're being distracted by other than crime at the end of each episode. That's what we are going to de right now is categorized Billy's role here on this podcast in that if you want to hear the softer side of Billy Johnson. This is where you need to come in here him on his audio book, you can hear him with hot for holes. But if you want a giggle, a smile, a reminiscent, anecdote from villian. This is the place about his childhood. He's not gonna do that on a serious shit IRAs. No, giggling on. Cares me Spanish in my audio books. I had to do a trying to pay good money chasing after murder a murder fugitive in Spanish, and my Spanish is so horrendous. And I hope they worked it all together all together 'cause it's going to be. It was not fun. Well, I do have to say that when we came together as a trio to start this podcast. I didn't know Billy that wall. And I didn't know that you would fit in so well with the gals. So. Silliness, and I think America does as well here perfect. Thank you, Jack. Thank you, Alexis. All right. So we're going to get to it and today's story brings us to Kaiser, Oregon. And we have probably one of the most interesting first reconnections on this episode that we've had yet. I'm just gonna let Chelsea explained and let the story unfolds. So I won't ruin it. But here's Chelsea Laven. I grew up in Kaiser, Oregon, what we lived in a neighborhood with a lot of other kids, like my, my chosen, she was in our eight. So we were outside all the time. But, I remember he just having a good childhood. I remember hanging out with my family and my cousins and my grandparents, and I had a little sister. So Chelsea's, parents were Michelle, and Charles Levin in may, basically, met in married in Reno Nevada on March fifth in one thousand nine hundred one and two months after they got married Michelle realized that she was pregnant with Chelsea, and all this kind of should have been a really happy, exciting time, new marriage, new pregnancy. But unfortunately, signs of trouble within the relationship between them. Already started to kind of pop up and things got really rocky. So one year after their marriage Michelle left Charles and filed for a restraining order against him in a judge granted her a one year order. I don't honestly I don't remember anything bad between my parents. So it's kind of interesting. I think they did a really good job of kind of concealing. What was happening keeping it behind closed doors? Why? No, he was pretty controlling now. I didn't really see it back then because I was on the I remember one incident were. She would go jog around than writing, I would go with her, and we could only stay. So there was like three streets and then Kozak each side street, and we could only go on our street between the two coldest talks weren't allowed to go anywhere else in the neighborhood. And she was like, okay, Chelsea. We're going to go to the front of neighborhood in box. Don't tell your dad. I was like, oh, yeah. Okay. I was probably like six or seven at home. And I told him and I just she was just so upset. And I know you know, he's probably got so mad because he was so controlling but I just didn't know back then we never did that again. But then Michelle Charles reconcile, and the relationship continues, five years after Chelsea is born, they have Meghan, who's Chelsea's little sister, and their home in Salem had all these poppies and pansies blooming, it was incredibly charming. It was one of the most charming on the block. Michelle was friends with everybody on the block. They described her as charming personable beautiful, and as far as what their lives look like Michelle was working at a jewelry store called Samuels jewelers. She worked there for eight years, and in nineteen ninety nine had just been promoted to manager and around this time, she also started developing her own line of jewelry. Charles had been a bus driver for the Salem area transit district from ninety one to ninety four. And then he started working at a cement truck as a cement truck driver for a look. Title cement company. I feel like he was a good dad to us for the most part from what I can remember, you know, it's funny like when you're young, you don't remember a lot of things that you remember specific incidences. And so, like I said, I remember him taking me and my sister out to dinner once a week. Can we would do that, just the three of us and one time he went and got me my favorite Hanson tape back when tapes for Zing, you know, I remember he liked my sister, a lot more than he likes to me and he wasn't always a nice to me, but he was always really nice to her. I was told it's because he looked at her. She looked like him. And I look like my mom like she had the dark hair, like he did darker is, and I have blonde hair like my mom, I was watching like home videos, you know, a couple years about that I hadn't seen he would always tell me, but no Chelsea, don't do that. And so loving to my sister. So I don't know. So, but shell toughed it out, though through the relationship because the kids love their dad, and also, she was afraid to leave. She was either used to or had simply decided to tolerate this relationship with Charles but that all changed in November of nineteen ninety nine when the police came knocking on the door looking for her husband and why they were looking for him. Was bonkers pretty crazy. And this is when shit starts skit really weird in the story. I am so Charles ended up popping up on police radar after they were receiving multiple reports from professional women all over the town of Salem. And according to the women, Charles was taking photos of their faces from their professional ads like all over the town and then superimposing their heads onto bodies of nude women. He then send these photos to those women with letters demanding money with threats of extortion, being crazy. And you have to think too, like this is nineteen ninety nine so they're the, you know, the way that it was being reported was that was like he was digitally manipulating or sending. Yeah, but yeah, he would take a picture of a realtor and attorney whatever. And then. It was one of the things that he asked as it started to escalate, though, and an organ, tell this story, but as he started escalate, he, he said that this these will go out and less. You see you put your name or your address, and your phone number in, like in like a classified ad. So it's so crazy because he's using digital stuff, but then he's using the newspaper and go. But what was he going to do with that? It's really not so crazy, and he would also threaten that the photos would fall into the wrong hands. If you know if they didn't like do the addresses here, probably thinking, like their bosses, or their dads or whatever. But also, I think it's like it's interesting to think about what so it's nine ninety nine right? Yes. So the time is different because I feel like nowadays, you can Photoshop anybody's head onto anything and it's like, yeah, this is in bullshit. But back in the day, I feel it goes probably way, more threatening because it they were harder to make it there were harder to make. And they weren't so prevalent like yeah. The people it was almost like they were harder to make. But they were also shittier too. I know I'm wondering how good this Photoshop job was to be honest. So it's probably people do you guys remember when we were in high school, and you went to theme parks, they would put your head in, like, yeah. Photoshop it. Yeah. So they were doing some stuff like that back then because this is like in the early two thousand I remember getting one of me as Luke, Skywalker you deal with. No, no with iota like behind me face was inside of loose. I can't believe they used to make like money doing that. Right. Make to Charlie's angels. Yeah, I love those as a kid so good. Honestly, I, we haven't even gotten into the store yet. But here's an example, that with your skills, you can take any path in life anytime life. He could have worked at one of those places. But instead, it's downhill we'll in one of these women in particular in this case said that after Charles center, the nude pictures, he called her multiple times made harassing phone calls in left messages, saying that he would make the photos public unless she either had sex with him or paid him twenty thousand dollars. And based on what he was saying it was also clear that he was following her. Like he he was referencing or schedule and all sorts of shit. I really didn't find about out about that kind of stuff for a long time. But when I was reading all the police report, you know, I read really in depth what he was doing. And I was just absolutely disgusted. And it's really hard to even imagine that someone I loved ever doing anything like that. I just feel really horrible for the women that he did do. I feel really horrible for my mom when she doubt, 'cause I cannot imagine how that fell, you know, shit signed out that he was doing this extortion scheme until he got arrested. It's crazy that someone can be, so abusive and controlling like he was to her. And then it takes something totally different. I heard actually be like, I can't deal with this anymore, we think but six Thorson scheme, but he had going on. You know, it wasn't even about the abuse. She them during she was just like I cannot deal with you anymore. And I think he had a lot of other hidden things that she found out about two. There was. A whole lot of Photoshop, you know back when. Computers. Weren't really that. Great. And knowing how you didn't really hear about people doing this kind of stuff. We talk about a lot of spooky and unnerving things you're on the first degree. But when it comes to being in the comfort of your own home, you want to feel safe and secure. And that's why we love one of our new sponsors, ADT when it comes to something as important as your family's safety or even your own. You need real protection with ADT real protection means not having to be your own twenty four seven monitoring expert because ADT has best in class monitoring professionals there for you at times when you need it most. Real protection means having a safe and smart home custom fit your lifestyle with everything from video doorbells. Surveillance cameras at streamed your phone, smart locks end, lights and carbon monoxide and smoke detectors. Real protection means helping to keep you safe on the go in the car when your kids are at school with their AT to go app and SOS button. So no matter how you define safety for you, your family, or your business eighty is there. ADT is real protection, so go, visit ADT dot com slash podcast. To learn more about how ADT. Can design and install a secure smart home system, just for you. So he's making all of these. Superimpose pictures of these professional women around town, but them the mon- bodies and trying to extort them, whatever is trying to do get their, their addresses their phone numbers. The police are made aware of the game. They go to Levin home. And this is when Michelle finds out what her abusive husband is doing in the free time when he's not abusing her and the police show her. The police reports they show her the extortion notes. But they also tell her other things I tell her that Charles Labban. That's not his real name. That's actually an alias. His name is Charles Earl friend, and he had a secret double life dating back to the nineteen eighty s so Charles, friend had felony convictions on his record. He had a criminal history in southern California for spousal abuse and willful child. Cruelty, Michelle also learns this day that Charles had taken his eighteen month son from a prior marriage and hidden him from the child's mom for more than a year and during their search of the home, they ended up finding guns. So they charged him with the legal possession of a firearm, because he was a felon, and they ended up seizing the gun, and he was arrested in indicted on these extortion charges. My mom way, do anything for the family, but when it can't is more. Oh, thank complete with disturbing. She was out. But I don't know when I was reading the police report, I. It's way more than you read in the newspaper. Like I don't think the news really got into that part of it probably for good reason because it is really disturbing. And he was, you know, calling on specifically, leaving her voicemails. From pay phones, and they found out about it because they followed him pay on. Pretty weird stuff and hard to even put put him in the category of dad hear that story. You know, I never saw that side of him where he was doing weird horrible things to other women extorting them for money, ten thousand dollars at a time. So I can't imagine the shock of hearing all this from the cops when you've been married to someone for eight years. And you think you know, somebody, you think they're bad enough. And, you know, you already like I is kind of a dick like, but, you know, but exactly. And she finds all of this out and. Michelle's learning the truth, finally, and it was a truth that really scared her. And these revelations were essentially the catalyst to the chain of events that eventually led Michelle to file for divorce and unsurprisingly. He was violent and uncooperative through the entire process, but she managed to get court approval to keep him away from her home, and from a work, which was she was a manager at a jewelry store at a local mall, so on may twenty four th despite threats that he would kill her if she left him after eight years of marriage. Michelle took the steps to remove herself and the kids from the relationship and the home. She moved out filed for divorce and got restraining order. Traumatic happening is crazy. What your mind decide that you're gonna remember forever? So. You know my birthday is may fourteenth. And so I remember like come how I remember we're not come eighth birthday. My dad was arrested at our front door, and we can you my sister understand, was going on. I don't remember my mom ever making us feel were eight or anything I remember going to get him some. Daniel McCain home. And then, you know, I look at the police record and then newspaper and I see that must've been just a couple of days later that my mom was like, okay, we're packing their stuff pack. Everything you need and relieving. And her friends were also, my dad was not there me and my sister were just, you know, getting toys, and clothes and off. We went we left pretty much everything except for a close important thing, I guess, the next thing is remember we were going to say, I had a friend that lives to down and her mom, and I'm pretty huge. We were the same and we went and stayed with her and her grandma on a different. I think three hours away and then the next thing you now we're staying one of my mom's co-workers cabin. I don't even know where that was. But. Never did my mom makes us feel like we were unsafe we need to worry about being, and now I'm thinking, you know, I know what happened and she's probably just scared out of her mind were hiding. So it's clear that she seems like she's doing all the right things. You know, it's she's doing everything that they tell you to do. Two days later, Charles retaliates on may twenty sixth. He files a petition for restraining order against her, and she says that she was pushing him shoving him. She had verbal threats and the judge from Aaron county. Dismisses it then over the next two days, he threatens to kill himself and to quote take her out with him. Five days or three days later. Actually, he takes the children and he leaves a note saying that. She would never see them again. If she called anyone. We went to go visit my dad Beck at our house. I don't really remember like how I was down. But I remember being chocolate ten we were leaving. And then my mom had called him on cell phone. And she was talking to on the front seat sitting in the back of the trust. And then he was like, do you want to talk to the? I don't remember this really well. And, and I was like, oh, yeah. Let me talk to mom, and I told her, oh, dad told us, we're gonna go to hotel because we've never stated a hotel before, and we're going to go swimming in a swimming pool. And she was like, oh, I mean, I don't remember exactly what you said. But she's like, oh, that's fun. Something, you know, like, and I'm so excited. And my dad didn't seem like anything was wrong. They've gone back. We spend tonight at the hotel, and then the next morning, we're getting into the truck and me and my sister are both in the truck, and he's like shutting the window, and all of a sudden I woke up and I see like five or six cops just surrounding the whole parking lot with their guns planet, right out. You know, they're like killing the ground, and he gets on the ground. And they all becoming arrested him. I mean my sister just the back of the truck like crying because we didn't know what was happening. We didn't anything was wrong. So I take him but the police officer had me in the front seat of the cop car, which was crazy, and she is in the backseat, and he took a there's a McDonald's drive through and got us breakfast. And we were so excited, but confused he had kidnapped us. That's what they're saying. And basically, that's what he did. He had supervised visitation and my mom was scared. So she left us with him. Just for the day, he said he was in tickets to the park for a couple of hours. She came back. I guess there was a note there that said, don't call the police, you'll never see the kids again. And then, you know some other threatening things she was scared. He was taken to the airport, because he had apparently kidnapped one of his kids previous me and my sister for a whole year and soc, my mom is scared that he was gonna do that. That is so confusing. I mean, imagine being eight year old and being pulled in to complete crazy directions. And you don't know what to think, or how to react to things you don't even know being arrested is like right in the fact that like she's like Chelsea said, in the beginning, it's like she loved her dad. They went to weekly dinners, and like he was. Yeah. And Bravo to that cop for taking them to McDonald's. All does. You know, nothing kid happier than going on. Or Billy John says, is an unpaid advertisement. Honestly mcdonald's. It'd be a great sponsor nudge, nudge, wink, wink, wink. Okay. So on may thirtieth. Charles was arrested. And he spent June first in jail on June third, he was served with another restraining order and four days later. He tried to call Michelle at work who was arrested again for violating his restraining order, and one of his co workers paid Charles is five hundred dollars bail, but he was now facing a six month jail term for contempt. And he was scheduled to return to court on June tenth, but unsurprisingly he didn't show up and a warrant was issued for us arrest. You know, she was scared to death of him. But yeah, so she went back to work on the sevens from sister was with my mom. And they were in the parking garage, because she had a parking spot. She worked at the mall. She was a manager of a jewelry store, and he had shown up and followed them in his car. And so, I just they just ran to parking garage, and he'd been calling her work threatening her in the next day, he called her work saying that he was sitting next to her car. And, you know, if he didn't get to see his kids that he was going to kill her kill me, and my sister, and he was threatened to people. She worked with was all just, I think pretty chaotic. And then it's kind of a blur, guess what happened right after that. I remember when I think that we are kind of in hiding for like two and a half weeks. And we just go to school or anything, and she didn't go to work. And I think we're seeing the grandparents house, he had to go back to work, and I do, remember being my grandparents house, and having a good time because we didn't see them a lot. But. We're told if you see your data neighborhood while you're out playing come home immediately run. So to recap, we're at the morning of June tenth nineteen ninety nine and this was actually supposed to be a great day for Michelle one that would finally help her breathe a sigh of relief because her husband, Charles was slated to go to jail for violating his restraining order for stocking Michelle and also for these things related to this audit store Shen. So Michelle had not been living at the family home as Chelsea stated they'd been hopping around in sort of hiding with friends and family. So Charles didn't know where she and the kids were living, and she was trying to keep them in hiding for this very reason. He was looking for them. So she was also afraid that if she gave him additional visitation, and things like that, that he would take them in leave town because he's a track record of doing this Andy's done at once before. She went to work on June ten. And she dropped me off at school. And she drove my sister off at daycare, went to where. And then he found her and of corking garage and shot her in her car. So. I, I mean I remember. After that I was at school. And the principal came Tennessee, do you want to come to my office when I talk to you? We're gonna do something, and I loved school. Tell us I I don't even miss class come at recess time lunch time. She's like okay, and so I did. And it was probably like an hour. Wait. You know. And I imagine they're a and how. The principal felt sitting her office waiting for me to come. But I went down there, and there was the principal and a police officer. What's happening? Police officers like we have to go, and I was like, okay. The police officer in this weird. Dan didn't know we were going she's. Your sister. It's going to be playing so we go pick up my sister. And I remember the two way we've got to star, we put her in the van, but there was no heat. So we put her on the floor covered with a blanket. Now, I know it was like a police van, you know, for protective custody, and so they took a string of the police station, and then my grandparents were there, and I was like, what is happening, and I remember just looking at my grandparents have never seen my grandpa cry except for this. Point. I'm they're both just crying and we're like what's happening. And then, like, I don't remember how they told us that pretty much like your mom is dead. Thirty two year old Michelle Laven. She was found Thursday morning in the driver's seat of her read nineteen ninety nine Mitsubishi eclipse. And a parking enforcement officer call the police around ten twenty am after finding broken glass on the top level of the parking structure. Now, she was in the in this parking area next to the mall where this jewelry store where she worked was located and the tape from the parking structure surveillance cameras showed Michelle arriving at her car. And this is. It's, it's so crazy because you, you can feel this, you can feel this as a horror movie, but it's real. So they show her arriving at her car, then she realizes that Charles had followed her in it was approaching her, and it looks like that she's trying to start this car like frantically, start the car, and while she's trying to start the car and go away, he walks up and he shoots her point blank through the car window with shotgun. And then he leaves and she had a shotgun wound to the back of the head and to, to the upper body. What are the detectives at the scene said it happened in the morning in a busy downtown area. And he didn't understand how nobody heard it and her death was actually salems first homicide in the year of nineteen ninety nine. 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So if you wanna try Ciro vital advanced out for seventy dollars off. All you have to do is text. First degree to two four six eight one. Oh. Again, that's to get seventy dollars. Officer vital advanced text first degree to two four six eight one. Oh, that's F. I. R. S T degree. Alexa, isn't the only one with breaking news, make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute, if you like the first degree you're going to love showman's of Kevin mckell and Jen, hush quits on podcast, one on the lady gang network. That's me too in the former glee stars. And best friends is the interview other dynamic duos about the wild ups and downs of balancing a relationship on set down the new episodes of showman's with Kevin mckell and John OSH quits every week on podcast, one. So obviously, this is a massive deal and huge. Search for Charles went underway. Police scoured the three or four floor garage for evidence looking under every car there, jotting, down license plate numbers, and sifting through garbage cans. They flooded the crowded mall with police officers and surrounding streets, but they could not find him anywhere. So they obviously rushed to the daycare center, where their children were his children were, and both of them were taken into protective custody, which Chelsea was talking about before. And after hearing the news of what had happened Michelle's parents rushed to her workplace to try to get information about what had happened. I can't even imagine. How confused everybody is at this point. Oh, it's so crazy, like so horrible. Right. Nobody knows what's going on now. So, you know, while everybody's trying to get information and figure out what the hell's happening. A phone at Samuel's jeweler starts ringing and that's where Michelle worked, and it was Charles, that was on the line. He called the store from a cell phone and started making threats towards Michelle's parents. And he was threatening to come back to the mall and kill them as well. So the mall was on lockdown, and they ushered Michelle's parents to safety in this is after he just killed Michelle. And then he's calling the mall bold written to the parents. I mean. It is it is crazy. So during the search for Charles, I mean, an obvious place to look would be the Laven home. And when the police went there, this is what Michelle's neighbors learned of her death in many of them got really upset started crying. But what was interesting is that some of them are afraid to provide information to the police because they too had heard many, many arguments coming from next door and heard in noticed his temper in that he was dangerous. So many of them didn't wanna talk to the police because they were afraid of Charles, they didn't know where he was, then the rightfully so rightfully so fine. So the police knowing that Charles was armed and dangerous. They called it a swat team to descend upon the home, and they used tear gas to try to. You know smoke Charles out of the house, should he be inside. I really. Don't remember when they told me doubted children mom, the police station for quite a while. And then they took this, too. Like sure house, 'cause couldn't find my dad. Never scare the he was still out and about, and he was looking for me and my sister 'cause that's what he had been threatening. So we stayed at this house only been one night, because my dad the next morning. And he committed suicide in a parking lot of a car dealership about thirty miles away. I remember wake watching the news and seeing them, take my dad thought out of the car after who tells us off and I think that's you know, when I realized like, oh, he's really dead. And then I went to my mom's funeral house, I go, she's really not coming back either. So twenty four hours later, they find Charles sitting in a Chevy Lumina rental car, and he is dead with a self inflicted gunshot wound to the head and lying next to him was the shotgun employees of the dealership that said that they saw the car park in the lot, the previous evening, but they didn't really think anything of it, and other employers discovered the car at nine am the next morning as they were opening up for business. And this discovery of Charles, effectively closed this case, we saw what a time scared and he was coming to get. And so I, I actually spent a lot of time after his death, because he never saw him they waited him, so I never actually saw him like. Good. A lot of time just scared that he was gonna come which ridiculous, but, you know, we just me and my sister had that fear even he wasn't alive anymore. So I think what she said was super interesting about the fact that because she didn't see her dad's body. She didn't believe like people are can be very visual. Well, especially at eight years old. It's like you don't fully understand most eight year olds. I'm assuming don't fully understand the concept of death and murder. No, not saying it's like they're getting these kids were getting thrown around a million different ways like going between the two parents, getting kidnapped by their dad thinking, he was a good guy and then like it's overload. It is it's overwhelming. And it's probably so confusing to actually understand what was happening the idea that your, your mom and your dad Ribaud th gone. Yeah, I don't I don't know how to reconcile that. No. And yeah. And then the fact that it's not like they both died. In a plane crash or a tragic accident or anything like that. It was because your dad killed your mum. Yeah. I mean yeah. You can't understand that as a little kid like that. No. I mean, it's, it's very difficult in this. This is why I think I was when I said it was one of kind of the most important, I agree stories we've had it's, it's very complicated to have a relationship with victim, and perpetrator. It sets the closest relations right conflicting. It's all sorts of things, but, you know, Chelsea so levelheaded about it and candid about how she's feels and I just think it's amazing. Yeah. So of course, you know, her mom her mom's been murdered. Her dad has killed himself, and now they're left without parents. We basically just moved straight in with my grandparents, and my youngest uncle had just graduated college, and literally just moved out a month prior. So, my grandparents never had like the feeling you know, they always had kids there. And then they had taken me and my sister in, I just think that they're absolutely the strongest people I've ever met. Grandparents. But I did think like that is such I can't even imagine being that situation and then having to take in, which kids really don't understand what's going on. And you know, it's your daughter's children and then having to raise them while going through discreet of your daughter being murdered. By the man that said she was her forever. When I was going to, you know all the police reports actually found my dad's suicide note. And part of the west read it has been absolutely devastating to my grandparents, because he spent the whole letter blaming them for this. He blames them for not letting him see his children. And then he said he was going to take my mom's life with his because he didn't feel like he needed to live any longer me and my sister can part of his life, and it was to sickness and help. And, and the and you just said he was always going to watching, and I just feel like that had to have taken L the huge toll on my grandparents. So I just feel like the fact of even what me and my sister to take care of those huge. And I still talk to them every other day. Twenty years later. So. Michelle did everything. Right. She leaves her husband and you, you often see in these stories if a woman gets killed by her boyfriend or her husband, why didn't she leave? She did it. She left. Why didn't she get a restraining order? She did it. She gets a restraining order to keep him away from her and their two children. Why didn't she move? She doesn't stay in one place, and she reports her husband whenever she caught him. Breaking the order. But every time he's jailed he's quickly released. So she's doing everything that they tell you to do, but the bottom line is these, you know, and I think the I was the judge or something like that said said, it's just a piece of paper at the end of the day, they only give protection of the individual being restrained, too. If they decide to obey the law, if somebody doesn't want to obey the law. Yeah, it doesn't make. That's like one of the craziest things that I had learned over the years, because like when you're younger like only a restraining order. It's like this wall that's around you. It's like a restraining order doesn't mean shit just gets them in more trouble. But if they don't give a shit about it or willing to kill it. You, they're going to kill you and nothing the restraining order it literally as a piece of paper, it's not gonna do shit if, if somebody wants to kill you during Cain, they're gonna kill you. And that's the that's the freedom of our society unless they have been put in unless they have been incarcerated, right? And the signs were all here and everything we saying was all here, but there just wasn't enough to put him in jail for a certain amount of time I have a question. Why didn't he go to jail for kidnapping his kids? He was supposed to go to jail the day, he held her. Yes. So he was he didn't show up first quarter. So he went to jail for violating the the order. Yeah. Then he violated the terms of his conditional like he was out on bond. Yeah. So then. His friend gave him the bail money writer like a co worker, nobody is crazy, 'cause it's like Muslim. Billy five hundred bucks because his ninety nine oh. I feel like you should like not. No. That wasn't that was for violating the. Oh, the yeah. I'm starting order. Yeah. I don't I don't know what I mean. I think he was just under privileged white dude, probably. They're like, oh, whatever you keep violating your shit five hundred dollars. There wasn't even bridge, ROY Tutu was privileged male. You know what I mean is like they did not, but the kidnapping, but the extortion, but they did not. Prosecutors ties obviously being violent in all the felon is he hasn't Cal? He was facing charges in California under his old name. They did not prosecute sexual assault. The way that they do now. Right. I mean, if you sexually assaulted somebody, you could be out on bail for two thousand dollars back in one thousand nine hundred eighty five list the way that they did that. So, but she did so many of the things that they tell you to do. She did everything. Right. And it's like that's what's it's like a. Well, there was an interesting debate, Oregon when I was doing some of this research, I found all these articles that were saying they were proposing a Bill at the time to give women who had to take off work unemployment benefits if they're being stocked if there were hiding from an abuser. Okay. Because how he found her. No. Exactly. And he's like, well, she's got a go back to work. So factor. Here's the thing, too, where it's like, you know, if you see somebody like his outsider in this situation, it's like yeah. Go go. Stay somewhere else go don't go to work. It's not everybody has privileges. She up and leave. Yeah. You can't take your kids out of school. You need to keep making money. You're and she'd been promoted to manager at the jewellery store within within the year. You've worked there for eight years, just gonna Champlain valley. Finally, you know, she was designing her own line to. It's just yeah. So that kind of laws interesting, but I imagine just the fraud, you know, because like they were proposing that a woman being stocked running from abuser can go on unemployment, but couldn't you just say like being stalked? Yeah. Bet you they would read about. But if you have a restraining order. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Good point. If you have a restraining order in new showing it and you're showing that you're doing all the right things. It's a great. I think it's really good law too. Because that's harder, manage it that we spend on stupid shit. Yeah, that's it law. Now it's great. It's just an organ that they were maybe doing that. Well, this was it was just a debate. It was a string of articles that followed this murder. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So they use hers, it example of how it could have saved her life if she could collect benefits she felt forced to go to work. She was a single mom if she had benefits, she could have hung out until the husband got under control. I don't know what I don't know. But it seems like this guy was not going like, how do you stop one of these guys? They won't stop them until they commit a crime and know that has to be the most terrifying thing to have to live through. I only got that's like you're always being watched also in part of your brain. Even if your scared part of your brain who, that's naive to the fact that someone would kill you because who likes you would never think someone who would have married, you would kill you in that thing with women, where it's like I feel like I would make that same mistake where I'd be like this guy totally loves me. There's no way he would ever do anything terrible to me. First of all, all of you have like every man, ever sorry, really not. You. Whatever. But anyway, they do shit. He thinks, but the fact you never think always even better for the doubt. And you never think they'd kill you ever write me, don't really know somebody ever ever Sep. You Jack, you know, me, I know you. Billy, is it real? He's from the underworld. So I will say that I would never do anything to either view. Oh, it's because we're not dating. Are you gonna help me change my tyrel? We really not dating dating after this. Where is it where yes? I mean knowing that, that, that I have these two beers here, and I can't open them, 'cause my boyfriend Charrette isn't here. We can all be collective relationship or living overdoing, the come. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Plus Jared like no van no serial having a van no serial creepy. White van no not have white very wizard on the side of it. That is cool, not a white van an alum side. Could see my IRA? It's just a bunch of happy meals inside. Right. Totally. Every car comes with its share of stories that ding in your bumper. When you nervously picked up the first day, the luxury package, you got after your big promotion or the mileage that you save by riding your bike all summer. Good job, by the way, while you can't put a price tag on your stories now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade it in just go to truecar simply enter your license plate number, and watch how your car's details pop up. Then answer a few questions if you have navigation and moon roof watch as they bump up your value. If you have high mileage, you already knew that was going to cost you. But now you know how much danger wallet so that you can plan ahead? Once you're finished. You'll get a true cash offer sent in minutes, which you can take your local certified dealer to cash out or trade in. So when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car, check out truecar today and chew cash offer is not available in all areas. All right. So. As you discuss. We've discussed the potential impact that this would have on anybody. I mean, this is a very confusing time in a very confusing thing to absorb when you're eight. So we asked Chelsea how she kind of how this manifested in her life over the years. How she dealt with this over the years. I don't know. I talked to my grandma, just, you know not very long ago within the last year. Probably. And she told me that when I was young and all this happened. I never really should things. I never really grieved it that well, and she called me, she said, I was like a little Coulter. Like I just kept going through life, you know, and I always thought I had to take care of my sister, and I still feel that way. She was so young and I know she can't really remember very much and so and she was my God's favorite, you know, she loved him. I have my whole life basically, I've hid this fact. But I mean it's like on the news you can look it up and find it. I just don't openly tell people about it, because I am kind of afraid of them feeling bad for me or like what's going to save Honey back, which seems ridiculous. I feel like they such a stigma almost on domestic violence, and like who had happen to and I feel like because I've heard all these. Stigmatizing things like I don't want my mom to be put in category. Like I didn't really know my dad that. Well, there's really that much information on him because he had fifteen different names and warrants out for is the rest everywhere. No one really knows about. But I know that my mom was just an incredible person that so many people love and, you know. She worked so hard, she wants to leader in college people just left in the door at her. And she hit us from everybody because probably she was scared to death of my dad says every time I tell someone I always get that, like, oh, my gosh. I never wanted expected out from you. Like I never would have imagined that happened to you. And I'm like, what does that even in? They can literally happen to anybody, and it was my parents, but, you know it can be anybody. So just on the heels of what Chelsea said about how it can happen to anybody. I mean, we haven't really share that much about Michelle, but she was a junior and senior prom court, Princess played on the basketball team track team and cheerleading team in high school and college. And she went to Linfield college where she received a degree in marketing, and she had a job she loved, she had passion. She had loving parents siblings and two daughters. She loved, and I totally understand what she's saying there with. Stigmatizing to have domestic violence, but it happens in all walks of life, this woman, he was also older. Is it something we don't have in here? But Charles was I think twelve years older. So I notice like when you're younger than a guy to meet them and things are older and put them on a pedestal just in just slip into a normal that you don't realize is abusive. Right. You know it's so it's so common. So what happened basically was I pretty much just ignored it that and then in college, I got married to this guy by ended up. Being with this guy for nine years, and it ended up being an abusive marriage throughout college. The whole thing my parents kind of started to get to me, and I just wanted to know more. I just couldn't understand how my dad could do something like that. You know, I really didn't know the whole story, my now ex husband wasn't being met grace convenient. I just kinda got really depressed? So I ended up being volunteer for cargo which is the center against from domestic violence in Corvallis, Oregon, which is actually the shelter that mean my mom stayed out when I was a baby, because she had left my dad at one point, so to this whole train to the advocate for domestic violence and the help, you know victims and then I had to move 'cause my husband's in the military. So I didn't really get too much. But I think that really sparked my interest and I really wanted to help people in the same situation on my mom. I was in. Cool that it was so close to home that might stay there, too. But then my husband, you know, became abusive, and I think I was just I felt like a hypocrite, and I was always seemed of what was happening. So I just completely shut down. Again. I didn't tell anybody about it. Just text going through for a few years, I just progressively got worse. Abusive marriage just didn't ever when my parents who they felt like a hypocrite, and I just felt like I was letting myself in the situation. How can I help anybody else? And how. Is that a good thing like mom died at the hands of my dad? And I'm just letting this relationship going so you know I thought they were known by. What? Think of this, you know, like, it's her really gonna go mainly ever. It's been twenty years, and I really have done anything. I haven't ever told the story publicly I've only told it to close people close friends of mine. My family knows. But I ended up getting all of the police reports, and all of the information I could read all of it, and two days, and oh, lot of information and just completely broke down. And I was like, this isn't fair like I can't do this anymore for myself, and I can't do this to my family, my mom that's just ridiculous. You know, like how can I have a husband that's threatening my life when my dad kills my mom so ended up leaving him it's been a year and a half. And now I just really understand the whole situation. I think. And I think it's crazy. And I don't want my mom's life and death to be meaningless. If my parents have been in that same situation, I probably would've, let my relationship go on even longer until I really thought down, and I was like, what would the mom think about this? What would she say sometimes story? And I hope it helps someone after having my parents after the situation that I was in like maybe even just hung. The story here, you know, we'll help people. I think Chelsea saw amazing. I the bravery that, that takes to tell the story for the first time like, like she said, she hasn't told anybody about other than like her close friends in our family. So I mean, we thank her for letting our platform, be the one that she's telling it on because hopefully like she said it can help at least one person. Absolutely. That's what I told her. I said, you know, we're totally honored that you would even. Talking about this is hard enough. Any means so it's just we're so I don't know. I'm so like an off her and a lot of ways. Yeah. Thank you. Chelsea. You're the best. Thank you chill ever. So it's just another reminder, I mean, we've had a lot of domestic violence cases on here. None quite like this one and as impactful, but there's a lot of like reform to be made and I don't know what the solution is. And I know it's a hard one. Exactly. Because she like we were saying she did all the right things. She still ended up with her life being taken. Yeah. And like. What do you do? Yeah. There was, obviously a trail of this guy. I mean, the one thing that, that could have been done is that there is a trail of this guy in those a trail of violence with this guy. He should have had a bigger sentence with some of the things that he had done. Yeah. That's inside. Shifty though. Chelsea. And I went back and forth for a while. I was helping her find his old identities with all the identities found we found three and one Charles friend. But we weren't sure it's, it's interesting because it seems like he assumed Charles Levin, and then someone started using his because it had recent because he's deceased, but it had recent in. It is him. It's all the correct people earth. This person has recent texting and driving charter ill. So we were like let's look into this, like somebody somebody he was using other people's. But then somebody's using maybes ING his full, right? We're trying to get to the bottom of it. So chelsea. We'll have to. We'll we'll continue on. But we generated all these reports, and it was really interesting. And I was really happy to help Alex's loves uncovering some info, all the info. And how did Chelsea reach out to us? Either Instagram, Instagram. I'm pretty sure again, Alexis like a madman every five minutes sharia. She won't let one message go through one. So if you guys are connected to a murder, or other stranger than fiction story, we would like to tell your story again. Like I mean, we're so honored that Chelsea reached out ties and no story is too small. This is an incredible story and story of triumph. Yeah. Yes. And a story of bravery and somebody that was doing the right thing and even the right thing is not enough. It's, it's the story of warning in a sense where you can do everything they tell you to do in all the books, but it's still not enough. Right. Which is scary. But the at the more that we talk about it the more that hopefully it'll bring in, we have to have that conversation, right? All right. So right us, if you guys have a story and follows in Instagram at Lexus link letter at Bill Jensen at Jak Vanik at the first to greet and keep your friends close, but not that close, be custard, in fish day fish, sticks fish fingers in costs, fish finger. Oh, hey, it's Adam Corolla for the animal Kurla show. And this Saturday, may eighteenth is the Preakness stakes after an incredibly shocking turn of events in the Kentucky Derby, the Preakness promises to offer a much less. Controversial race with some very interesting wager options, and well-balanced thirteen Horsfield one place, only gets you right to the action. That's bet. Online dot AG sign up today receive a fifty percent. Welcome bonus at bed. Online dot A G remember this Saturday's Preakness. Let's get in on it Trump and trade. I'm Tim Maguire the AP newsmen. The Trump administration was draws terrorists and steel aluminum from Canada Mexico, both countries say, they'll lift retaliatory tariffs on US goods clearing a hurdle for new trade agreement between the three nations. President Trump says the end of the terrace is good for all three countries, spin, charging us extremely high tariffs as much as two hundred eighty five percent or more for our agricultural products. The Missouri house passes a ban on abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy. Governor Mike Parsons, I've been pretty clear where I've been from day, one on right to live several other states have also passed so called fetal heartbeat laws. Today's action follows Alabama's passage of a Bill making performing an abortion of felony in nearly all cases Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has defied a subpoena from House Ways and means committee, chairman. Demanding six years of President Trump's tax returns committee, chairman Richard Neal says they're likely to go to court next week. I'm Tim Maguire.

Michelle Michelle Charles Chelsea Billy Jack Vanik extortion Oregon murder Billy Jensen officer Charles Levin Google Salem Jared ADT Billy Jackson Charles Earl Bo Casey Alexis linkletter
2020 Is Almost Over

The First Degree

45:19 min | 7 months ago

2020 Is Almost Over

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast wine production now available on apple. Podcasts podcast one. Spotify and anywhere else. You get your podcasts free degree degree post degree the first degree supposed to have in movies not welcome to the first degree that true crime. Podcast that you might end up on my name. Is jack panic. And sitting far away from alexis linkletter and billie jensen and this is another extended killing time episodes. So if you're looking for a case about murder come back next week but if you're looking for some good old fashioned shit talking you can stay. Hi guys yes thank you. You can go something episodes that we've got prior. Oh yeah i mean or just listened to any any other how many episodes we have now hundred and twenty something one hundred twenty. I thought you said twenty billion. I think that there's more than that. Damn we've been doing this for a long time guys. I know longtime feels like forever. so happy. new year's eve eve. This year is finally coming to a close. I think everybody's been waiting for it. So i think today we're going to have a little bit of Celebratory look back on this year. Type of an episode. Look forward to twenty twenty one and yeah but before we jump in. I think we need to figure out what day it is. If there is any days there there are very few days. it is december thirtieth. But it's a very important day. It's bacon day beacon aac banking. They agreed hey this is how. It's also national bicarbonate of soda day. Which tells you that nobody really wanted. This day is not married. Many days but bacon staked its claim and nobody wanted to get near baking. Now what if all of our thoughts about bacon bacon. I like good piece. One need that. Everyone's like i like me i. I'm just bake in just never excited me mad about you billy. I like a thick cut bacon. Not that i don't like crispy bacon like a little bit more chewy. So what's it called something. Something ham canadian bacon canadian bacon now. It's a little bit different than that. Yeah at least a little bit thicker. Not it be. I'm not a big fan either. Really unless it's seems like it's not peak in like a beacon. There was a time in when in my life on. I had to try to get page views for all of these newspapers and you had to get food page views. If you added bacon in any headline you would immediately triple the page views. Because everybody with no into anything bacon and then it turned to butter to anytime. He threw water. I love kevin bacon. Yeah a lot. So how about two servings please where people just searching because they love and they wanted to like. Look for a recipe yeah. It's you're at work. And you're bummed out or whatever like that and vicariously living through whatever recipe or whatever. Anybody's like twenty craziest bacon dishes or whatever and that was around the time of like you know two thousand nine. Two thousand ten when bacon was was all over the place. So i remember that fondly remember telling people telling my editors game bacon content. Bacon was all the rage. I mean there was within my seen like the imo. Seen cupcakes were very popular. So maybe it was like a you know that on a larger scale when a food just becomes very well. I think yeah and i think the cupcakes came an initially. Everybody will say the cupcakes came from sex in the city member. Mike that's where the like it originated with pop culture with cupcakes at sex in the city. And i wish episode or read about what we're cupcakes sex in the city that used to go to magnolia sex in the city and in new york city so it became like sort of a thing that people were talking about. You don't think i've ever seen a cupcake that show. Maybe they just talked about sex in the city person so you know everybody everybody in the facebook group. Back me up on this and by the way with the cakes. They have cupcakes at carey's book party. But i'm gonna say what about the sad carey's book party the last episode. When she's in wasn't she in france or something and then like she doesn't show up because she's at the at her mean boyfriend thing they're just like cigarette ashes and i'd like a cigarette was put out on her sad book. I feel named play in the lining of her dr clutch. I know sex and the city billion. There's no cupcakes. Kapit really start. Honestly everybody on the facebook group. I've never asked you to defend me before. Defend me on this one. I'm sorry you're disappointed. City this is where it came from. I mean if not also miranda got steve a cupcake when she was falling back in love with him from the no steve. Got miranda one. She says for me the guy who got me a cupcake. And then she invited him to stay and watch the game and she was secretly secretly pining for him. As the only other time. There was a cupcake. I'm telling you. I know my shit. I just rewatching his name the sex in the city marathon on e. this week i had to do. I had to do commentary for the sex in the city. Marathon on e. like two years ago when we had the show and like i said i've never watched sex in the city before so the whole thing and we had to do this for probably twelve to twelve hour days they'd have us watch certain clips. Be like okay so like you know talk about this clip and you know what it means for the characters and i'm like are you kidding. I'm like even know your your earpiece. So i guess like sleeping with the stranger might not to talk about. But that's like my only connection to sex and the city. However i did not see any cupcakes in those little thirty second clips. Going to say only can correct me at scenes. Speaking of the facebook group we are getting dangerously close to ten thousand members. Oh so tell all your this would be the time you've got a few. We've got a few more days for the holiday season before everybody goes back to work hopefully going back to work. Tell your friends share it. Let's hit ten thousand sooner rather than later. Six hundred okay so before we jump into the rest of what have planned for this episode. I had a few people commenting on our facebook post. That we need to talk about alec. Baldwin's wife do we all know what's going on with us. Yes i really do in. I'm confused like i know. At what point people decide to adopt like their new facets. I don't understand it in like. Did alco visit her family. Not notice that. How does this work. So i will. I'll do like a little t. l. d. dr on this from what. I've found online so basically his wife is named hilaria. I think baldwin. So she's basically been lying about her spanish heritage. She said that she was born in my arca in that she was raised in spain and her family's spanish and she speaks with a spanish accent. Like all this kind of shut. And she was recently like somebody dug up her entire past and Hillary she was born in massachusetts. Both her parents are american. Ones royer wanted ones like a professor. I think like a medical professor or something like that one's a lawyer. They're both sides of the family have been in america for generations. They her parents. I think live in spain. right now. doesn't mean you're spanish and it's just the craziest thing ever because people of course are just pulling up all these videos of her speaking with spanish accent and like not it's just it's it is odd. It's so odd. Why people think they need that. Do they feel like they're boring and they need. They're not exotic enough. Like why do people decide to do stuff like this. Why i think that okay. So allegedly they met. I don't know if they met in like a yoga class. Or they met somewhere but the whole thing about when they met as she didn't know who he was because she didn't like keeping on top of american pop culture or anything like that so that was like her whole shtick when they met as she just like had no idea who he was but in my mind i'm like was she planning this whole thing and that was like i think she knew exactly who he was. That's what people do when they wanna like. Knock the egos a famous people social climbing star Hey she she did it but now he has to. I don't know what do you think about it. Bill did you. You looked at me and i. I watched some of the clips. I watched how she would go in and out with the accents. And i wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. Because if you know when you're around somebody that has a different type of accent times you will. You will take that accent and then your brain sort of gets gets into that. You know if you're if you're hanging out in london for three weeks you start getting a little bit of a london accent. You know if i'm if i'm on long my mother for a ninety day for an hour i'm i talk with my long almanacs for you grew up in long island. So that was part of your like when you're learning language that was like pi. You learnt language. Yes listen i was just trying to give her the benefit of the dow. But i know what to think i even when i go back to long island. I don't have the accent anymore. Yeah i mean it's very hard to pick up axons like as an adult especially. I just think the crazy thing is is then. She goes on like instagram. Tv to like defend herself. And i always think it's crazy when people you know that. She has publicist. That's telling her like probably. Don't say anything right now and people just go rogue and they're like you know what i'm gonna say you're for eight minutes and just blab and put it out there for the world. Yeah yeah it's pretty embarrassing. The whole thing. The whole the celebrity apology is something that probably should be looked into it. You know it is fascinating. I was thinking of member. Everyone kathy griffin griffith Even when she had the picture of her holding up the The trauma and then like everybody freaked out and then she was like well. What do i do. And then i think one of her friends might've been rosie or something told her like just go on online. Go on your social media. Don't put on any makeup and just be really sincere. don't put on. I remember them saying that but then it's just like in in year four. Everyone's just like yeah. She was just ahead of the curve. She was ahead of the curve bombers ahead of the curve which with that because trump murdered three hundred thousand people so i mean people have crisis. Pr being crisis. Publicist is an actual job. That they have for situations like this. Maybe a little bit worse than maybe for like. Cathy was more of a crisis. Pr situation but there are people that tell you what like how you should respond to situations like this. And then i love and people just go rogue and they're like i'm just going to go on there and possibly ruin my career and it's great fascinating. No it's just like so. Many celebrities are narcissists. So they think. Like oh i can. I can share my way out of this. Like i can convince anyone. Winning thing i can appear in sear. I can see you know. They'll connect with me. They'll feel like it'll resonate blah blah blah. It's like dude. Know exactly. And i think like a situation like her. She probably believes her own lies right. And she's like justifying. Whatever rooms hillary dude. When did you when did he start. Calling yourself hilaria. That's when things went wrong. You should should go. You should go look at that moment. That day is all just started going downhill set whole thing of like. Oh you're you're leaning into that. You're trying to make that part of being spanish cool. You know what i mean like. it's sort of appropriation. I don't. I'm not an expert in the subject lutely geraldo rivera's name with jerry rivers really. He's not he's not so no no i think he is but it. But it's just you know. His background is latino but his name was. You know what i mean. Just so he decided to you know she run the name that was leaning into it a little bit on well. I thoroughly deep dove into this whole thing. Because i think situations like this are just absolutely unbelievable so so wild ride this one. If you haven't was right. And i can't wait to see where it leads. What happens next you know what happens next. And then whatever then. She's like using her instruments. Like a thirst operate now so i think that's so funny. I'm like oh girl. Oh girl okay. So the focal when we come back. We're diving into new years. Do you honor rancher your home. Sure you do on a bet. It can be hard work but you know it's easy bundling policies with geico guys. Who makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy and it's a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home. Good at geiko dot com. Get quote and see how much you could save gyco easy visit. Geico dot com today. That's geico dot com so twenty twenty as officially coming to a close. Thank god and i know. It's been a very very hard year for pretty much. Everyone and i think that it's a good thing to go into twenty twenty one prioritizing your mental health and i wholeheartedly recommend base therapy so with talks base you can sign up online and start therapy the same day as you sign up and depending on the plan that you choose. You can text video or voice messages to your licensed therapist. So it's incredibly convenient to virtual sessions from the comfort of your own home and talks base. Let you send and unlimited messages with your dedicated therapist in the talks based platform twenty four seven and with talks. You can set goals with your therapist and he can hold you accountable to make sure that you're really progressing. So my therapist gave me practical guidance. That really changed my life for the better. And i'm so glad that i found talks face and got the support that i needed. And you can too as listener of this podcast. You can get one hundred dollars off your first month. Talks base to match the licensed therapist. Today go to talks base dot com or download. The app being shared use code first degree to get one hundred dollars off your first month and show your support for the show. That's first degree at talks. Base dot com okay. So what was your favorite episode. That we did this year. I think i loved our bt k. Episodes a lot just because it's such like a notable case. And i just never thought we would talk to somebody that connected to such an like notorious serial killer so i thought her insight was really interesting and that was through. Billy wasn't it wasn't sheree connection. Yeah but i. And i love the fact that you know Alexis you're able to make that that story fresh. You know. Even though i i had heard it and we all had had even heard it from her perspective too because she had written a book and everything like that. But i was. I was super jazz for those episodes as well just because they did sound really fresh and new even though it is you know i think any time that we can take a a a subject that has been heard before and tell it in a in a way. That is fresh in new. I think people get really really jazzed about that. I think we've been able to do that with jonestown. Nicole and ron and this one are the three biggest ones that sort of come to mind. I don't know Can you guys think of anything else that that we've been able to do that with. Oj episodes the oj stuff. I don't wanna say oh. Well it's when we started the podcast. It's like that was sort of the premise of it. I i'm sure we even had conversations about that or when we're talking about being connected to something in a bts daughter would come up as an example and to finally have gotten her to be a guest on the podcast i think is such a full circle moment of how we envisioned this podcast to be on the larger scale. I think we did a good job. To with with our jodi arias episodes. I thought our lorena bobbitt episode was good. That was city oklahoma city. Those are really sad. Those were hard how those were hard. They're hard to do their important though. Because i think you know one of the reasons one of our guests on that show. She's like you know nobody talks about that tragedy. The way they talk about nine eleven and and you know for the people that tragedy did impact. I mean it's the hugest thing to them. So i think it's important that we do those episodes. They're just really sad. I think another one of our best series that we did. This year was jodi. Arias me to our guests. Were so good he. He's a public speaker so he was just amazing but yeah i could listen to that guy talk all day. He was wonderful and that was such. I think from our listeners feedback that too. It was an episode that so many people learn so much about the case that especially with some of these really infamous cases. You'll see it on your feet. And i don't need another upset about ted bundy so i think that if we have episodes like that when we did have our ted bundy episode also not in this year but such a cool interesting perspective to hear about a case that everybody knows the ins and outs of. Yeah we were there when some. We talked to somebody that watched him die. And i don't think anybody has never really done that or focused on that like that. I think probably my favorite one was was the root of evil stuff with black dahlia. I thought that was great. I mean that's go way back last year. It aired in january though this year is our tara grinstead up. I can't believe that was this year. Yes harlow years ago years time is so messed up for me. What is time. i don't know guys. It's so weird. That was there so that was another question on the facebook. group is what were we doing a year ago. What exactly one year ago exactly. One year ago. We're in nashville. We re not nashville. Having the time of our lives it was a really good way to send off the year into europe. Shit oh my god. National was fun. It was so fine and then we went to atlanta to record our episode of pain lindsay for the tara grinstead case that was i think on january first that we did that so it was also fun pain school. Painless being extremely hungover trying to do that being like. I don't know if i can do it here. In the booth. We were hung over that whole trap. I don't even know how we got through that. Pain has the pain you know is a pro. So he has this like really really good sound booth but it's small. It's small because it's supposed that's how sound with supposed to be so we were all crammed into the sound booth. He's not used to having a guests. No and we're like dude. Do drink version of this episode. Gralow from downstairs pain lives above a kind of market type of thing so yeah or at least. That's where the the offices yeah. That was good times jew. Is there any notable true crime news or true crime stories. That have happened this year. That you guys have been attached to or found relevance in. Laurie shod day bell. I mean that young case that just keeps on giving in that like it just gets worse and worse and worse and i can't. I hope they have. Trials may end up pleading guilty pleading down to something. Because i really wanna know how many people these two killed like and how would y and like what steps they took in. How do we stop this kind of madness from happening again. Because the fact that everyone knew those kids had been killed and like they couldn't figure out how arrestees to you. Know what i mean. The the whole case is just baffling. It's baffling and it's just. I mean that case number one. I couldn't believe that was this year either. Because when i was trying to some stuff i was like holy shit. That was this year But the yeah the fact that everybody around them is dead is insane. Nana's what's terrifying is like. She's so this is going to sound weird but she seems so pretty normal in women like her are so dangerous it means she really seems like a stepford wi fi like it just tells got to be on like a housewife show. Yeah it's really really disturbing and like just the video footage evidence that came out of them like moving stuff out of that storage unit. It's just showing yet awful. is recorded with their friends. Like the evidence they have is just crazy and body and they retreated to hawaii and they're just living their best lives on vacation when people. And then i think it was twenty twenty or dateline. I can't remember. who did. I think it was dealing and keith morrison was trying wasn't keith morrison. That was like actually going up to them but there are confronting them and they were just like. I am busy sitting on the beach. Having a pinochle pinochle auto. Don't talk to me smile to like. It's her kids are dead and buried. And she's just likes nonchalant. You just wonder if like she had some break from reality. You know what i mean like how. How do you go from being a loving mother to that. Unless you were always a psychopath. I i don't know it's so strange as disodium incredibly disturbing bill. Do you have anything that stuck out to you this year within true crime news. Honestly the biggest thing that sticks out to me. Is that the only way we were able to stop. You know a school shooting or a mass shooting that would happen. Every three days is a pandemic you know. And i think that was crazy. You know but it did. That's that's the thing that that stopped it or at least slowed down. Which would says a lot for where we are as a society. I think that Obviously i think the biggest true crime story of the year was was george. Floyd and then that led to Putting a spotlight on on rouda taylor and all of these other cases and i don't think the black lives matter movement would have happened if not for You know the pandemic and not ever you know in in such a big yeah. Nobody there was no sports. That was not there was nothing. There was nothing that anything else everybody had. Actually you know at least half. The country looked in the mirror and said yeah we we need to. We need to fix some before. Move forward. so Obviously it's gonna take a really long time to do that but you know i think that was that was probably the biggest ones that stick out to may and we got you know There's a couple of a couple of cases that we were able to get on murder squad. gets arrest on which were kind of good the rebecca gould case which is a nineteen year old A fifteen year. Old murder case We we got an arrest on a couple of other ones to of people putting their stuff in jed match and then helping with a genealogy with that so if anybody got twenty three and me or ancestry dot com subscription kid or whatever please do the extra step and to your stuff in jeddah notch. Absolutely how they ended up finding figuring out the dna of the nashville bomb. That would have been too quick. I think i just wonder. How does that was like three days ago. So i know about these. These well informed about what's going on in that situation as so ability. Do you know more about this than i. I only generally about it. It's very strange. First of all he was an it guy yeah. Can you on what happened. Just talk so. Somebody drove their recreational vehicle. Can type of thing into a into downtown asheville and played a recording. Saying this is. This is gonna blow up inflicting six thirty in the morning to on christmas. Yeah the police did a really good job getting everybody out of the area and thank god. It was christmas but who knows what we did on christmas. Listen to it could have been really you know if you if you take a look at the surveillance video. It's a pretty intense explosion So he plays this recording the police jump they get everybody out of the and then it explodes and then they're trying to figure out who did this. They did say that they're human remains. Were found it turns out it was this. I think it was sixty two years old and he was a an it guy and i don't think they've found yet any kind of manifesto or anything like that. This guy was thinking about but i i was. I think somebody told me something about how he thought that. There's something going on with five g. Did you read about that. no. I haven't looked into this. So don't quote me but i somebody had sent something about him and day five g conspiracy thing but i don't huh five g conspiracy. What is that basically thinking that the five g towers are What are they doing. I'm not gonna play into this all right. I'm sorry asked people on our facebook group. If you know what's going on with this tell us. Tell me with the five g conspiracy is not gonna like. I'm i don't wanna dive into another weird things that he that after the warning the song downtown came on. Oh yeah that's also very strange as well the wholesale so i'm sure that will learn more information as time goes on but it was very strange all right we are gonna jump to our sponsors really critical beer back so you know that you're getting old when you pull a muscle while sleeping. 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And i made two hundred dollars for them book an appointment on the app. You can track your items with your personal is my sales dashboard and get notifications when you're item sell. It's so fine so download the real real app today and shop and sell your favorite luxury brands and get twenty percents off select items with code real plus new shoppers. Get twenty five dollars off their first purchase available in the app store or google. Play the real real app today. Okay so speaking of true crime cases and all that what case would you guys like to cover next year. What would be your number one case billy. So many curious from now like is there. I mean jon benet. Obviously jon jon benet would be great I will say this i won't. I won't say who the family member was. But i close family member of john. Bananas family reached out to me to Get get in touch. I believe with paul to try and work on something together. So i have a first degree there. If they're willing to come on. I remember you telling me. I think that is waiting. Yeah shoot him an email you know. I'd like to make your dream come true. I mean i just think that there's just so much misinformation out there. And i would love to do a deep dive into it. You know how many object but there is a Like the necessarily know if it's me but it's a question that's going around amongst all of like a lotta the true crime podcast. If you could solve which case would you want to solve and it was zodiac. Or jon. Benet and i've looked at as people doing polls on instagram. I've looked at it. And jon benet is just like seventy percent versus thirty percent zodiac. I mean it's just the it's the biggest mystery of our time for some reason zodiac feels like it should it should be solved but it feels like this like a lot more mythical in it makes more sense. Let me rephrase it makes more sense to me that zodiac isn't solved. How jon benet hasn't solved. It's like it's mind boggling. Yeah it's mind. Boggling that got show convoluted even in the beginning of the investigation. So i think the janis more perplexing in that way. But like ciphers for god's sake so that one's meant to not be soft that's what the exactly it's like. He went in there with the intention not went in there but his whole i mean stick situation was to never be found. I don't like vinci code of like serial killer is it just like his whole thing was like the taunting more than the killing. I don't think even got off on the killing. You know that's why he kept taunting him. He kept on saying. I've got twenty victims and thirty victims and forty victims. I think. I think you look at something that major event in. Somebody's life when those letters stopped coming right the zodiac would be a very interesting case to cover. As well i never got into the zodiac. i watched i have in other cases. But i know same. I don't know why either because it's so right in my wheelhouse. That's why i would love. I would love to cover it. Because i would love to learn more about it because i don't know enough about the zodiac as much liked to. Maybe we'll watch a doc. Are there any good docs about it. I feel like they all kinda crappy but we'll figure it out probably knock the fincher movies. Amazing that's another digestion. I know but it's so good in jalen hall is so high and mark ruffalo so hot. It's got a nice head of hair that mark ruffalo mark. hair transplants. Now i think he's just like italian or he's just blessed yeah he's just blessed with that head of hair okay. What are you guys going to drink on new year's eve a very important question champagne trick on new year's eve don't drink on new year's eve it's amateur night tersely interest the exactly i do the opposite of what people do you take and new year's eve amateur night i stay home. Oh my god okay. You bring it home but i don't. I actually try to make it a point now that drink on those two days like this. I don't think it's true but okay. What do you drink jack champagne obviously and i just a made a new jack tale video of a fantastic champagne. Drink so head over to my instagram alexis. You would love it. And i drink at one on years. Yeah well how little cocktail. I need to find some some pop rocks because that is the that is the special new year's eve cocktails and pop rocks. Okay now i want to look forward into twenty twenty one because hopefully this year will be better than the last. So do you guys. Do you guys do new year's resolutions or do you think they're bullshit because i think that they're bullshit. I don't really do a resolution that in the way. That in the quintessential way. But i write down things i want to accomplish in the next year. Yup goal list. I started doing a goalless a few years ago. And then put it on my medicine cabinet. And then i crossed them off as i move through them which this year there were not many crossed off. But that's okay hey bestseller. So here's one he i. Yeah billy do do you adhere to resolutions. No i mean. I try to do I i definitely do the goal lists necessarily do them right on on new years but i keep them there as far as what i wanna do. I'm usually a little bit more reflective Around this time what did i wanted you know and going through those goals and saying what did i do. What did i not do but Yeah as far as resolutions go. You know you see it. you see it in advertising. There's gonna be a reason why it's gonna be interesting this year because there's no gym's open and a lot of places but usually you now you would see all the advertisements in january and You know just trying to be a better person. That's what i'm going to try to do. Resolutions are just a way to make you feel bad about yourself. Because people for resolutions people usually try to make resolution for something that is very above and beyond what they would normally accomplish within a lifestyle. So it's bound to especially with these. Jim ones and the diets or even worse. It's just like gonna it's gonna you're gonna go off the wagon at some point and then you're gonna feel like shit and then that's what commercialism wants you to feel like they're gonna be like be your resolution again next year. Don't give up get you over. and over. and it's like just makes small healthy choices in moderation moderation is where it's at no more dieting or burn themselves out and they get a negative connotation with whatever it is they were trying to do becomes cyclical defeating thing. So that's how we feel about resolutions on this podcast. We're not into it no resolutions. But what do you guys have any specific goals for next year that you would like to share with our listeners. I would love to expand the first degree. That's what i was gonna say if we have any personal goals or professional goals. Yeah i'd like to see the first degree. Get bigger and bigger and i would like to see it. See us get bigger on on social media and and breakout some new merge to we always want the new march second showed and spinoff. Yeah that was my. That's definitely going on my goal list. Desert our second weekly show a killing time on its own. I'm gathering some guests for our killing times to tell. Yup i'm i'm gathering them and we're just waiting until we can do our second episode so i think that that's like our major goal. I first degree is to get that second episode out. Then we're discussing like maybe we're going to dabble into the tech tech world. I don't know. I think that needs to happen. Ace wrap i now took some more true crime Start that in the new year although there have been some great tiktok true crime stuff. I've seen a few. But there's not enough sarah attorney. Let's attorneys you know what i mean. Just being able to offer sisters case that was great is that they're using tiktok accused other stuff as well but yeah that was fantastic. We what did she do. I'm not. I know the case. But i'm not familiar with. I mean that was the headline because it was a it was a snappy headline like how one sister us tiktok to solve her sister's murder kind of thing but she was trying to use all all avenues and seesaw tiktok as a way to to turn more heat on you know and who knows how long i'd say yellow. I don't know anything about it. Ten years maybe something like that. A ridiculous amount of time but just given summary for people who have no idea what we're talking about okay. So elicit attorney was a girl. He disappeared in two thousand one when she was seventeen and she had a younger sister named sarah and she started investigating the case on She would go on on on podcast. She was really trying to push this constantly. You know she was thirty one years old now. She was trying to call the police over and over again. The police wouldn't Talk to her. They wouldn't do this and she was very vocal on social media. I tried calling the police about this. They didn't do this all this kind of stuff. She really believed that her that the stepdad actually caused the demise of her sister and she won tiktok became popular. She went on tiktok. She went on youtube and she really was describing all of the efforts to locate her sister's body and she eventually was able to get enough to push the phoenix police department into action in into finally making an arrest in they arrested turney. This guy was a bad dude. Anyway i mean they had at one point. They had found like a bunch of bombs in his house and stuff like that. But he's yeah. Yeah he's it's a case everybody to take a look at it Attorney and it was just a just somebody getting loud and using all the different platforms that you can and tiktok with all of them. That's one coming we're coming for you. It's one of the few times that social media really makes a positive impact Sir so many should he about social media. You know stars louis. I think would be circling back to the celebrity apology. I think apologies really started with social like it's win the social media mobs turn on. You is when you have to do damage control. Because so much of people's success hinges on it now hinges staving the social media mobs. It used to be that they would go on a talk show or something or late night. You grant would go on a now to apologize say now Or you know these celebrities that would go on to apologize and now they're just like oh i can control the message more by doing it on social media but also we always ends up being so much worse anyway. The comments on our office the question. I know what a nightmare okay. Well i'm gonna end this episode on a high point when things back to normal next year because twenty twenty one is looking up. I hope what is the first thing that you guys you guys wanna do like once the world has opened up and things are normal. I really wanna vacation. I really wanna go somewhere. Tropical lately like bali thailand or nam bora bora. Oh anything anything anywhere. It's going to be crazy to get on a plane. Just go somewhere. Oh my god. That'll be crazy. The first thing i want to do is go to a packed shitty dive bar. I want somebody to spill the beer on me. I want some. I wanted to do karaoke in packs a little room. I want to wait in line for twenty minutes to get a drink. It just sounds all sounds so delightful friends who took for granted. Before i want. Want them back billy. What is the first thing you're going to do in this ships over when the play hockey the one time i can get out of my head so yeah i wanna i wanna play hockey. Want to get punched in the face. I wanted to do all that stuff. Miss the most get a tooth knocked out a tooth knocked out which is yeah. I love it. Oh well here's here's the twenty twenty twenty twenty one police for the love of god. Yeah mary your. I will say america. Get your shit together. If there's one thing that we've we've proven that we can do is get things from one place to another and the fact that we said we were going to do twenty million vaccines distributed and we've only done three million so far. It's like come on guys i know please please. When it's available to you go get your invacc- so we can get to a normal life and record together one day all right. Well i again forget how he signed off these things. We killed plenty of time. Happy new year everyone. Thanks for listening to me. Let you happy new year. We love you. Stay safe air. I like bed. That's really firm. I'm something a little softer than that. Rest easy to the sleep number three sixty smart. You can both adjust your comfort with your sleep. Number setting really helped me fall asleep faster. Yes gently warming your feet. Okay but can it help keep us asleep it senses your movements and automatically adjust to keep you comfortable sleepnumber proven quality sleep. Is life changing sleep. Don't miss our new year special. The queen sleep number three sixty. Two smart bet is only ninety. Nine plus special financing only for a limited time to learn more go to sleepnumber dot com special financing subject to credit approval minimum monthly payments required. See store for details rather thirty day. Free trial of live by live plus and you'll get unlimited skips commercial free music and all of the podcasts and live streaming events you can handle visit live x live dot com slash. Podcast one to learn more and start your free trial.

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Ski Mask Rapist (Part 1 of 2)

The First Degree

38:43 min | 4 months ago

Ski Mask Rapist (Part 1 of 2)

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on apple. Podcasts i've cast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast all right. Well we've got a little bit of a different kind of sponsor for today's episode. And that is the jordan harbinger. Show which is a podcast that you need to be listening to. I know i've talked about it a few times before. And if you haven't checked it out you're literally missing out. So jordan show which apple named one of its best in two thousand eighteen at making you. A better informed more critical thinker. So you can get so you can get a sense of how the world actually works and come to your own conclusions about what is happening inside your own brain. Even each episode is a conversation with different fascinating gusts. And when i say that. There's something for everybody here. I seriously mean it in one episode jordan talks to a hostage negotiator from the fbi who offers techniques on how to get people to like entrust you which is honestly terrifying but also kind of useful and another episode tells the story of a cinematographer who discovered a lost city in the jungle and made one of the most important archaeological finds of the century. We really enjoy the show. And we think he will as well search for the jordan harbinger. Show that's eight eight are boy. I and as a nancy g. e. r. on apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts degree. I i i i agree. They're supposed to have movies. Not real life extremely violated right. Somebody's house talking. My girlfriend feel helpless. I couldn't do anything stock one of the first degree. The true crime podcast. You might end up on. My name is jackie. And i'm sitting far away from alexis. Glitter and billie johnson and give everybody a heads up. This is part one of a two part story. So if you are a type of person that likes to benja podcast and get it all done in one go. You need to wait. Wait one more week and you can do it all together but if you're not keep on listening and we are going to see. What date is today mr bill. Jensen today is april fourteenth. And it's look up at the sky day It behind that that's right. You know what. I often forget to do it but i think you should do it everyday. Look up at the sky. Try to make shapes out of the clouds and just realize your place in the universe. This is something that i did in the beginning of covid because there is nothing else to do so i really took the time smelt the roses looked up into the sky and it was pretty gorge but constantly forget to do it. So good reminder. Now get her mind to wear sunglasses. Yes any other days yet to stick with the You know some of the animals might have been left out when we talked about the manatees. It's also national day today on april fourteenth Fearing a great day. What a fine day indeed. And isn't it something like everybody. Wear pink day or something like that. I believe i did see that as well. And it's national bookmobile day. Have you ever been to a bookmobile day. Last year we hated it. Then to god forbid a library shows up at your house now now i'm starting to realize we're actually laughing in. We're doubling up on on the year so really trying to be ones. We haven't discussed before going to happen at some time. It takes seven years. I don't know maybe there is something similar to a bookmobile. It might have been like a book fair day or something like that but we're not seven years into this yet no. I think it's every third wednesday of the month. It's the way thanksgiving is where it's probably always on a wednesday or something Possibly i dunno. We'll look into that book mobile day before. No you're right observed wednesday of the second full week in april. Wow alexis camp here we are. What a good memory. All right you win a bookmobile. It's gonna come straight to your dream all right. Well that's enough of that. So let's turn on the lights up your because this could be. Today's case takes us back to december fourteenth of nineteen eighty-seven songs. Heaven is a place on earth by. Belinda carlisle and faith by george michael. Were topping the charts and movies. Empire of the sun in moonstruck were in theaters with. Today's case begins redwood city california which is located in the bay area of northern california proxy twenty five miles south of san francisco and twenty seven miles north of san jose. The san mateo county jail is located in redwood city and little fun fact about the jail in nineteen seventy six patty hearst was held there as it was the most secure facility in the bay area at the time Yes redwood city. It's just a thirty minute. Drive to san francisco so you can have a beautiful suburban life within close proximity to a metropolitan city. It sounds ideal right. It was especially for a young couple with budding careers. Yours first degree bell. So we were living in redwood city which is kinda right next to palo alto. It's a suburb of san francisco between san francisco and san jose nineteen eighty-seven we've felt that The barry was very safe right. I mean palo alto extremely wealthy area. Atherton is right. Next door to redwood city. You know it's. It's probably one of the wealthiest areas in the country and redwood city was a little lower income at that time bill. It actually moved to redwood city with his girlfriend christine and the couple settled into an apartment complex together in an apartment complex on the side of a hill. But no no redwoods really it. They were probably all shot down in the late. Eighteen hundreds for you know building stuff just really. This apartment complex is kind of in the middle of a bunch of housing and across the street was a church that had a gem and so it was perfect location for us because we both swam competitively and want attraction to this apartment was hit had big picture windows gigantic windows. That would you know christine love. Love the lights. Come in filling christine. Were really excited to move in together. Christine was a pharmaceutical rep. That's how we met. We were both in pharmaceuticals. And then i think the time. I was selling video and dasa equipment and christina pharmaceuticals and we were living local vita enjoying life. Part of both bill and christine's job required them to travel frequently for work. In mid december of nineteen eighty-seven bill had to fly to la for business and on the evening of the fourteenth christine was getting home from a long day and called bill to check in while he was on the road. Here's christine. I had just gotten back from a business trip. I gotta some pharmaceutical convention or business meeting or something. I got back and it was dark and i got home and i ended up calling bill and like la la la. And how's it going christina. Bill were in that super cute phase. You now the phase. Where if you're not together. You're on the phone constantly anytime. One of us went out of town. We would you know how you spend hours talking on. The phone and after work for teen was home shoes. Stunningly beautiful statuary side and christine are married and clearly. There are so totally in love which is really really cute. Alright the story. She had come home and we'd gotten on the phone and we'd probably i don't know we probably talking for forty five minutes. An hour as bill and christine chatted on the phone the atmosphere and the apartment changed and christine noticed. And then i think i had to go out to dinner. And she said it's kinda cold it was in december. It was kinda chilly right and so she said i'm going to go turn the heat on. It's really cold. And i actually went to the thermometer and actually the heat was already turned up so i was like well. He already on high. Why is it still cold. Maybe the heat was broken. Maybe it was taking longer than usual for the apartment to heat up or maybe something else was going on entirely and then and we talk a little bit more. And then at some point i had to go to a dinner meeting so we hung up around six pm with public hung up. I went to dinner but for some reason. Despite christine adjusting the heat the chill in the air persisted. She went to investigate again. Wasn't warming up right and she notice that the kitchen window drapes were billowing to one bedroom apartments. I'm kind of walking around. And and then he just happened to open the curtains of the of the kitchen. Look out and like actually. The screen was gone and the half a window was gone so it was like open to air. She's like well. That's kinda weird. Yes extremely weird. And so then she. She's tall right. She's five ten and she looks. She kind of leans down a look. I just kind of take my hat off the window. And there's a yellow like naga high kitchen chair stacked up against the wall. And i'm like wait what to be clear. Christine discovered the windows open when she had not left them open when she looked outside. There was a chair below the window in the assumption. Here is that someone was either looking inside and had the window or someone had actually climbed inside the apartment. This is obviously a nightmare for any woman home loan and so she immediately did the right thing. She kind of freaked out and she called a friend of ours whose dad was chief of redwood city fire department and he knew all the coffins in the area right christine calls their friend and she paints a picture of what she's observed in their apartment the window and the chair below it and he responded with an incredible sense of urgency. Get out get out of the house right now. Stand in the middle of the street and and wait for me to like well. I'm the naive underway. And he's like get out of the house. I'm standing in the middle of the street at my bathrobe on. I'm like waving and there aren't really any cars going by nobody. There's nothing where christine stands in the road wearing her bathrobe alone in the dark as she waits for a friend who arrive she waits and waits and then finally headlights approach and he pulls up Maybe five minutes later in his rock in the middle of the street and they're standing out there as dark outside. And you know he's he's like well where all the cops like i don't know and waiting right and he's like he's like oh my god i call them so long ago. Where are they yes. Where are all the cops building. Christine's friend had called the cops before he come to help christine and clearly they had arrived yet but then something strange and rather ominous occurred all sudden all these undercover guys came out of the bushes. They were let the plane closed. Pucks come out of the bushes. And the juniper and everything and then we're trying to figure out what happened kinda from that point on it's a little bit of a blur. You feel helpless right. I'm in los angeles. And this is all taking place. And i couldn't i couldn't do and i think i was stuck. You feel extremely violated right. Somebody's in my house. Somebody's talking my girlfriend. Okay so your mind is probably spending a thousand miles a minute wondering why a team of undercover cops were lying in. Wait in the bushes. Try putting yourself in the confusion of christine's position right now so many questions are probably swirling around in her mind. What were the cops doing there. Who are they looking for. Why are there so many of then and most glaring of all who the hell was the person who presumably had broken into the apartment when christine was home alone while to answer all of that. We've got to go back to the beginning. We're going back two years. November fourteenth of nineteen eighty five songs we built this city by starship and head over heels by tears for fears. Were topping the charts and movies and nightmare on elm street and death wish three were in theaters and the setting for this. Portion of our story is los gatos california which is located in the san francisco bay area and geographically. It's the southwest corner of san jose and just at the base of the foothills of the santa cruz mountains. It's part of what is known as silicon valley. It was on this chilly november night when police received a call to report to a suburban home in a quiet los gatos neighborhood. They're a slight sixty two year. Old nurse with light colored hair named sarah was waiting for them and she was completely distraught and she the horrifying ordeal she just experienced then she had been raped by a man who had inflicted in plant terror after entering her home. The man it slipped into sarah's home through an unlocked window heat accosted sarah all why wearing a terrifying dark colored ski mask. The man was brandishing. What looked like a handgun. He was able to incapacitate her entire up. After that he raptor hadn't faced with a towel he then raped her on and off for more than an hour alternating between sexually assaulting her and then leaving the room before coming back to contra again. He repeatedly told her he would kill her if she tried to look in the direction of his face even though he was wearing a ski mask he also threaten to strangle her with a sash of the rope. She'd wearing sarah later. Said during a media interview that quote the actual rape was a smallest part of it. What was. Worse was the sheer terror that was inflicted on me for an hour and ten minutes and upon hearing sarah door. The police were of course extremely disturbed but they also weren't surprised and this is why it turns out that sarah's was the fifth matching the similar mo to occur in this particular neighborhood in the low scotto suburbs and the last fifteen months. The rapes had began in the late months of nineteen eighty-four and when sarah learned that she was the fifth victim of the sky in the super concentrated area. She was stunned if that was the case. Why didn't she know this was happening. Why aren't people in the community warned so they could exercise more caution than usual. The police hadn't gone public with the info about the rapes leader. Telling the mercury news that quote. They don't like to openly give out information about crimes like rape because that's going to create panic and we're trying to prevent that which is insane to me baffling baffling. The first rape had occurred in late. Nineteen eighty-four and when officers responded. They hoped it would be an isolated incident but then on february fourth nine hundred eighty five. There was another in los gatos than another then another then one nearby saratoga. By the time sarah's rape occurred they knew they were dealing with a serial offender and now finally going public and began discussing the rapist with the press. The police confirm that yes. They believe these five rapes the work of one suspect. In each of the five cases the rapist slipped into a resident or an unlocked window or door and then raped taunted and robbed the victim before disappearing into the night. Even though he always wore a ski mask victims had still been able to provide a rough description. The rapists was described as an anglo or hispanic male in his thirties. That's six feet. Tall hundred and seventy five hundred eighty five pounds and possibly has hispanic accent and it seemed clear to involved that he was not going to stop you know. I think it's pretty obvious. And i think it comes as no surprise that both alexis in my guilty pleasure is one hundred percent. Ninety day. fiance's. I can't get enough of it but do you know what i feel exactly zero guilt about how much i love playing. Best fans and oliver. I love playing beans to. And if you don't believe me you can check our facebook group. We love this game. There because best fiends gives us an endless source of fund. That i can access any time right on my phone. So best means is a match three puzzle game like none other with literally. Thousands of levels in new content added all the time. And i've been playing for. 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Space dot com and use code first degree to get one hundred dollars off your first month and show support for the show again. That's i agree at talks. Base dot com. Do you dread looking at your credit card statement every month. I honestly don't blame you. I do too but we have an amazing sponsor that can help you out. Upstart can lift that weight off your shoulders. You can finally feel the relief of being free of credit card debt. So upset is the fast easy way to pay off your debt with a personal loan. And it's all on line so whether it's paying off credit cards consolidating high interest debt or funding personal expenses over half a million people have used up. Start to get a simple fixed monthly payment and unlike other lenders upset. Looks at more than just your credit card. Score your income and your employment history. So this means they can offer smarter. Rates with trusted partners with a five minute online recheck. 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Most recent target after this ordeal seir was so traumatized that she couldn't return to her home for more than ten days however the days following the rapes she went door to door to every house in our neighborhood and share the details of her experience determined to make sure her neighbors were aware of the suspect who is raping women in the area. She enrolled herself in therapy and then installed a security system. Bought a guard dog. That would sleep with her. Sarah's rape really though was a game changer for the investigation. The existence of the serial sexual predator had now gone public. There was no sweeping it under the rug or ignoring it. Please stepped up efforts to investigate the crimes. The added more patrol officers to the area and encourage the public to call an any tips. That could help in apprehending the suspect and as far as evidence police could glean from each of the five scenes. It was pretty scant inside these homes. The suspect had either worn gloves or had been extremely careful not to leave any fingerprints or he cleaned off everything he touched before he left. There is absolutely no trace of him and after the attack the police canvas area and go door to door and no one reported seeing any unfamiliar vehicles in the area. Nor did they see. Any cars away suspiciously late at night. The suspect also robbed each victim taking jewelry and other small valuables from the home that he had noticed the detectives very creatively dub this predator the ski mask rapist. Up until this point it had been the san jose police department handling these rape cases. They made the initial connections between the first attacks. But they believe that. Perhaps this monster was just getting started so wisely they thought it best to start meeting with neighboring police departments because based on the frequency of attacks they expected the rapists to expand his target area and the san jose police were wise to inform your law enforcement partners. And here's why. The suspect kept raping unsuspecting women. One after the next hitting outside of los gatos saratoga. He hit campbell. San jose palo alto mountain view in santa clara. Several police departments in the areas. The rapist was hitting compared notes in the observed additional characteristics of the rapists. Now the rapist always attacked victim in their own home or on the premises of certain businesses mainly churches or school campuses and it seemed as though the suspect was stalking his victims beforehand. Who would follow them. Home from work stakeout. Their houses learn their schedules and new. When they'd be home along then he would strike. And after the rape he would burgle the homes of his victims and beyond the rapist. Mo law enforcement also observed very clear victimology. Most of the victims are rapists targeted. Were professional women in their mid thirties with blonde hair and obviously he attacked sarah who was sixty two. So there are some outliers exceptions to the women that the rapists would fixate on and despite the new efforts to catch him. The rapist kept attacking women. He was attacking them over and over and over again and with each attack. The horrible details just kept getting worse. He became emboldened and kept upping. The ante in one instance. He raped a mother as her seventeen year. Old daughter lead frozen next to her in fear and when he was done he roof. The daughter to these assaults lasted hours sometimes and inflicted terror seemed to be his main focus. So i think it's really weird that northern california has had these rash of just sincere rapists. That have obviously. This has a very east area rapist. Mo like a ski mask in then the terror being the main focus and the stocking beforehand. It's just like it's weird that there's so many of these guys in the bay area decade later. Yeah i'm not extremely familiar with the time. Line of golden state killer overlap. There could thought any of that would have. It's totally different. Well maybe they thought that he could have come back. But i think the disruption the fact that he was described as possibly hispanic and six feet doesn't go with him but Yeah dan Dangelo was done with in seventy nine. And then these attacks started in eighty five. You're right though. There were so many. Like the early bird rapists was out there as well it was just and you know i did i. I started doing the math myself. I had heard about this guy before. But i definitely went into google maps and try to see how far got us was to sacramento Because they were incredibly similar. It's just so crazy. Imagine being a woman. Living during those two decades. And having to like prolific serial rapists. Just out and i can't imagine living in that type of a fear it's crazy and those are just the ones that we know about. We know that they didn't look at what it took. You know what he was saying. Any of this stuff. Nobody was talking about it even with east area rapist. Nobody was talking about it until finally they said we. We gotta start talking about it so bonkers absolute freaking bonkers so by this point many bay area communities new of the threat and women were buying weapons. They were buying locks for their homes. They were taking self-defense. Classes but all the preparations caution in the world wouldn't make this rapist pump the brakes on his terrorist spree. The cases kept coming and they continued to get worse in one attack. The scumbag raped a pregnant woman while her four year old son laid on the floor thereby by this point the age range of the victims ranged from seventeen to seventy seven years. No one was safe. And it's clear that this guy was escalating and police feared that he may escalate to murder and press conferences. The rapist was described as a meticulous planner. Who sometimes picked his targets weeks ahead of time who was referred to as an intelligent and terrifying suspect experts on serial offenders aided in the investigation in theorized that the suspect could be obsessed with a childhood sexual fantasy. That leads him to attack. Repeatedly by nineteen eighty-seven dozens of women have been raped by the ski mask. Rapist and only one victim was believed to have seen his face. The woman had caught sight of him while he fled without his mask. After a field rape attempt she described him as a hispanic man with a square face. While defined jaw and medium brown complexion and the reliability of this victims description was bolstered by the fact that witnesses on a few occasions had seen a man matching this description lurking in neighborhoods. Were rapes later. Took place until this victim caught a glimpse of the rapist face. It was impossible to know whether this lurker was actually connected to the rapes. Or just a red herring but now with this description. They had something of course. There are thousands of men who would have matched the broad strokes of this description. But again it was. Something sketches of the rapists were created with the help of these i witnesses and circulated in newspapers and broadcast on tv news programs but the press coverage didn't force him into hiding in february of nineteen eighty-seven a woman named lisa was raped on her thirty first birthday after the ski mask rapist. Blindsided her inside her home. He was wearing his token ski mask and holding a pistol he raped and terrorized her for what seemed like hours and he kept going showing no signs that he would stop based on the research. It seems as though this rape spree perpetrated by the ski mask. Rapist was a pretty big deal in the bay area around eighty five when the police finally started looping in the press. I asked bill if he remembers hearing anything about it if somebody was raped eighties if it was even in the paper. It would be a small little paragraph. You know. it didn't even dawn on us that some guy would be raping you know dozens and dozens of women. Just it wasn't even on the radar and you know we were young and innocent and just going about alive and really probably not as aware as most folks are. Today right yeah. I don't think we ever locked our dory by october of nineteen eighty-seven the ski mask. Rapist had struck at least twenty six times that the police knew of and he was about to make it. Twenty seven on. October fourth carla. An elementary school teacher was going into her classroom early in the morning to prepare for the coming week and she was getting organized at her desk. An intruder entered the room. She later said in an interview with the mercury news quote. He told me to lay down on the ground and he put something over my head. He pointed a gun at my head and he said you're going to do what i say. He cut the strap off of my purse and then he choked me. I was totally afraid. I thought he was gonna take care of me forever. At this point the rapist had been at it for three years and it seemed as though the police were no closer to catching this guy. While they could identify his mo in a heartbeat the rapist had continued to be meticulous and not leaving behind any physical evidence. That could reveal his identity remember. This is nineteen eighty-seven. Dna had just been used in a criminal case just a year before all the way over in the uk and while the bay area would prove in the future to be really adept once dna collection mccain thing. They weren't testing for it back. Then you know the best things that they could have is the assailants blood type and secreta or not san jose. Detective joe ray said in an interview with the associated press quote. I feel like we know everything about him except his name and address. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Said san jose. Lieutenant skip hazen. Who was the guy that was in charge of department sexual assault unit. While no arrests had been made the cops had pursued several potential suspects who they thought could be the rapist and at least three had looked extremely promising to them. One suspect was tailed by surveillance team for weeks but ultimately none of those guys ended up being their guy but then another name popped up their radar and help please came to learn. This name was a little bit complicated. So we'll simplify the sequence of events the best that we can a few months prior august nineteen eighty-seven a woman at a rape crisis center had confided in a volunteer counselor there about a burglary attempt that she experienced in nearby foster city california. The man aborted the attempt in the middle of the robbery and he fled but was ultimately apprehended by police. This burglar was twenty six year. Old job anthony sanchez. And when the police arrested him he had a dark blue ski mask with red trim he had dirk gloves and a pellet gun in his possession and the victim and the case saw sanchez's face in court when he was prosecuted and it looked a lot like the sketch that was circulating around in the press. George sanchez would be sentenced to six months of weekends in jail for burglary attempt and it wasn't may of nineteen eighty-seven that this woman called in a tip with the san jose. Pd providing george sanchez's name along with other pertinent information. This tip was filed as lead number one hundred twenty by lieutenant. Joe ray has at the san jose police who at the time with the only detective working fulltime on the case because of a manpower shortage. It's crazy me that they're over twenty rapes and they've only got one detective on it. It's insane i mean and the it's all very strange the fact that they're not they weren't telling anybody about it being like you know it's just gonna create like it's going to. Yeah yeah and they don't put anybody on the case it's like you really don't want to solve this. Do you know when you think about a to silicon valley in the early eighties. This is as it's starting to explode. This is going to be one of the the richest areas with the most money coming out of it in the next couple of decades. And they're just trying to keep the peace as much as they can try to keep things out which is horrible. they're trying to do. Yeah so great. Everybody moved here. Yeah everybody moved here. It's crazy and it's like think about if this was tip number one twenty and there's one detective on it think about how long it's gonna take him to get there. Oh my god right because this is ultimately. What happened the tip about george sanchez. It was added to a larger list of more than two thousand tips. So for whatever reason probably the reason we just mentioned about there being only one detective on the case. This particular tip didn't actually stand out as being of paramount importance. There were two thousand others after all. It wasn't actually until a second detective was assigned to the case full-time in august of eighty seven. And it's at this point. That property look into george sanchez. And here's what they learned so. Jorge sanchez is twenty. Six year old. He was a city sewer worker and he was married. Father of two his wife clara worked as a librarian. Okay so on paper. He doesn't necessarily fit. The bill seems pretty ordinary but now that the police were aware of the items were found in his possession when he was arrested for burglary. They figured he was certainly worth looking into a bit. Further as the preliminary investigation into george sanchez again. The number of rapes perpetrated by the bay area ski mask rapist continued to climb between october. And mid november of nineteen eighty-seven four more attacks were reported one of them involving a sixteen year. Old girl who was raped in the family room of the cupertino house. She shared with her parents clearly. The rapist was showing no signs of slowing down. san jose. Police decided to start conducting fulltime surveillance on jorge sanchez and suspiciously. They found that he frequently proud residential neighborhoods and business areas. But was he prowling for his own job as a city sewer worker or was it for an after hours. Activity like raping and terrorizing. The police continue to trail sanchez but they had caught him doing anything particularly damning yet. There are beginning to wonder whether or not their pursuit of sanchez was just another rabbit hole like the three suspects who looked really good for this. Who had come before him. And it was now november of nineteen eighty-seven. The thanksgiving holiday was fast approaching and during the holidays. Certain police units tend to be short staffed since so many people want time off during thanksgiving and it's not clear who made this call but the surveillance detail was pulled off of george sanchez over this thanksgiving weekend and this would prove to be an extremely costly mistake. Right because by the time thanksgiving weekend was over there would be more pain and suffering in the ski mask. Rapist will have upped the ante once again. All right well huge. Thank you to bill and christine for being our first degrees this week. They will be with us next week for the conclusion of our two part series on the bay area. Ski mask rapist and We are not doing killing time this week because we're preparing to make killing time. It's very own episode in a few weeks so we are hard preparing for that and it's not going to be like the killing times you've been doing have structure this polish this is a well formed idea and well-formed conversations and you guys are going to solve. It's going to be so much longer. It's going to be star studded. It's going to have a mix of a crime and popular culture. And when delhi says star studded. He means he'll be there. Yeah billy johnson will be there. It's going to be amazing snow. It's really great. We've been plenty of against me too. I'm sure there's going to be a forty five minute. Roses literally a whole segment that that that has written down seven minutes. Make fun of philly which. I don't know how you guys are gonna do that. But i i mean we need seven minutes minimum. It's going to be sprayed so don't don't be mad at us for having killing time because we're spending all her hard earned time preparing for this epic second episode. You're gonna dig it. You're going to dig it and remember only you can prevent serial killers and keep your friends close. Close happy bookmobile day again coming around again. Damn it's yell out for a. It'll stop for you shoutout to jerry. Monica for producing original music for the first degree to are producing team. Caitlyn cleveland taylor. Rogers and alan santiago for podcast. One sources for today's episode include the associated press. La times the mercury news upi san francisco chronicle and has always a frustration. Guests in this case are always our largest source. I know i'm you to change of scenery. Who else a change of scenery right now. Well pretty much everyone in the world. So it's good that apartments dot com has the most listings anywhere. We're not just talking apartments but houses townhomes condos and all manner of domiciles from the oh so cozy to the did i just hear an echo in here and with three. D virtual tours. You can search for your special somewhere from literally anywhere or from your house if you're ready to leave yet that's okay too so stretch those fingers across a sweet sweet keyboard and change your scenery on apartments dot com the most popular place to find a place. Seven years ago college wrestler damian heard disappeared from a party in gunnison colorado noon. Whatever will win how and why he left or questions. I need your help to understand. Nobody's hereford have now disappeared from cold-case productions and podcast one final days on earth. The life and death of damien hurt. I'm your host claire. santa. Mo- join me april twentieth for the season premiere.

christine redwood city sarah los gatos san jose san francisco apple Christine billie johnson mr bill alexis camp george sanchez dasa equipment christina pharmaceuticals palo alto redwood city fire department alexis california
Vicki Logan & Wanda Faye Turner

The First Degree

1:01:40 hr | 10 months ago

Vicki Logan & Wanda Faye Turner

"Thank you for listening to this podcast one production now available on Apple podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast. You know if you're like me probably been at home cooking, the same food over and over and over again, and if you're looking for something new and fresh, but also healthy, you need to check out daily harvest. So daily harvest delivers delicious food built on organic fruits and vegetables right to your door. It just takes a few minutes to prepare and I never have to question if the food I'm eating is good for me. They never used preservatives added sugar or artificial ingredients and daily harvest works directly with farms to freeze their ingredients at peak ripeness to lock in their nutrients and taste, and with daily harvest, there's an option for any time of the day. There's SMOOTHIES. 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Welcome, to the first degree, the true crime podcast that you might end up on my name is Jack Van and I'm sitting far away from Alexis linkletter and Billie Johnson, and it is only about a week or so until we are reunited and the first degree will be one again, hell to the getting closer every day billy what day is it today? It's national bring your Teddy Bear to work in school today that is a creepy holiday most creepy. Do not have a teddy bear. Did you ever have a teddy bear that I work I actually have a teddy bear that is sitting in my room right now named Smiley and he was my mom's my uncle got him from my mom when she was giving birth to me and he was her little focal thing when she was giving birth my teddy bear my entire life but I would not bring him to work because that is weird. Super Weird I wouldn't recommend for adults. Any adult. Feeling building might have lots of Teddy bears I have a couple of teddy bears yeah. I'm very you know person that likes to cuddle I do like a teddy bear I do like a stuffed animal or a very plush as they call them are these Are these active barriers that you cuddle with actively like I don't ever touch my teddy bear Houston, an active another minimum aware of like. Active. Do you have them in the bed cuddling with? You like as a? No No. I. Actually don't know. Are they like elves on the shelf and you just keep them. On. Like Humpty dumpty on shelves. Yes. Yeah but Elf on shelf would. Move around all the time and that's all they withheld on the show. Is it Barron your hair? It's barren my hair darren here that's in. There you go. That's our new product. Your. Hustle lumber whatever the hell it is Papa Lamp. Do you still have it oh, my God, of course. Would you bring her? Ivory. Wise. He might hear you. Don't be talking about him. He's three thousand miles away. Well, you know it is Halloween. Spooky things are happening all over the place but. That's enough of that. To turn on the light. And turn up your anxiety because this. Could be you. There's a test people like to use when describing the strength of friendship you can have best Geez. You can have rider dies, but the ultimate test seems to be the declaration I would help them bury a body. So, today's case takes us back to January twenty seventh of two, thousand, six, the top song on the radio, check on it by beyond safe featuring slim thug and dirty little secret by the all American rejects for all my other retired emo kids. Movies in the theaters were blood diamond and big Momma's house two. and. The setting today's cases Lubbock Texas. lubbock is the eleventh largest city in Texas also happens to be the birthplace of rock and roll legend Buddy Holly. As well as country legend Waylon Jennings. And it's home to Texas Tech University founded in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, three. So it's a college town. It has about two hundred, thousand people. Dallas is the closest bigger city to lubbock about an hour drive away and demand who is going to tell us about Lubbock. Texas firsthand is Bryce. Who is the first degree for today's case. I grew up in Lubbock. It's more like a smaller suburb. It's not as big as Dallas, but the people there really like close knit There's a lot of churches definitely the Bible Bell do their go out ardy advocate Texas tech is here. So you got a lot of parties like that. Price was born in Bredon Lubbock and so whereas boys and one of his friends we consider a brother was tyler logan elementary was the first time that I met Tyler. He was a year younger than me and it was just a plan. You know sports in the neighborhood he was actually pretty good Alex good and then we proceeded to go to junior high together and just always been in the neighborhood plan ball I think junior high was whenever I you're really started. Clicking Tyler calling him. My little brother does the Koga funny to be around he was in. You know he was going to stand up to anything so I. So it was a group of us that Kinda ranch together like that. He was always taller than everybody a few inches taller Rosh odors clothes was always nice. Always had the newest kicks. Anything that was in tyler headed. Pricing Tyler remained friends through grade school school, and finally high school and athletics remained focused. I would really good at sports in around Lubbock you. You know whenever you really good at sports, you get a Lotta respect as Brighton Tyler moved through high school. They stayed committed to sports excelling at sports key in Lubbock picture, the show, Friday Night Lights, and in fact, Desa Texas, the town that the show Friday, Night Lights was based on was only fifteen minutes away from Lubbock. And braces high school team would face off against the Permian High School. Panthers. We actually played that team. So it's exactly like you see on that movie it was awesome in our age group. We really good at football. So I think it was thirteen of us that got a national letters of intent to play college ball and so will you want? All of our lives we had, you know everybody that was with us. We never lost. We won every super bowl, every junior hat and eating every city championship and We're GONNA win a state championship out here in Texas. But we kind of sorts who are really really good team bryce tyler and their friends were the popular ones the guys who everyone wanted to be and who could get any girl that they wanted. But that didn't stop them from wanting to test their boundaries, which is not uncommon for teenage boys. But there's no doubt that the things that bryce tyler and their friends were dabbling in were pretty dangerous. According to Bryce they were doing things like quote making drug deals go bad. They were setting up drug dealers using their girlfriends to gain access to their homes, money and drops. It was more of breaking and entering type deal I. Mean. There was times are we were selling fifty sixty thousand dollars at a time from guys in. So at Nineteen Twenty, twenty, one years old and that you know over and over every time that we got down to where we were almost broke, we would turn around and do it again we never went in TV's or anything like that. It was just a illegal. Stuff, and so we use that to our advantage because we knew them guys would never call police because what are we here for it? I didn't take anything that we can see other than the drugs that we smell it was a you know a gentleman arrest for all of us in. We were the predators you know prey on prey on the weak and so most of the time we will send a a girlfriend in the house or whatever I in. You know that's how we were come in there but there were also times that there were other people that was there as well. No one ever got hurt or anything like that are. You know drugs in money was you know what we're in for tyler was more of an extremist even in myself which I considered, it'd be one that's GonNa go all the way or not at all in Tyler was one that was gonna go all the way. AMD prove his point to be the Banus in. Texas Tyler had a really good heart but he never had a solid foundation are solid role model. In, his life so it was more of Tyler. Masking doing so he would go to the deepest edge there proved that he was a tough guy when in fact, if you call his bluff, he probably folk quicker than any of. In Hindsight Bryce realizes that in those days when they were robbing drug dealers, they were playing with fire. But despite the risk taking nothing bad happened. And Rice was able to get out of Lubbock and went to college. He was going on `word and upward. I left to go play football at St, Mark's two, thousand, four, two, thousand, five year, and then I went to Egypt Mexico University by January of two thousand, six Bryce was twenty years old. and. He was enrolled at eastern new. Mexico state. He was building his own life at college while tyler remained in Lubbock because remember times a year or so behind. Bryson. School. Mon- January, twenty seventh price was sitting in his living room at school. When he got a call from a high school friend. Midday and a friend of mine had called me and he said, they say tyler killed his mom and his grandma. and. Of course he said, they say because you know there were certain things that are group guys were running around in the streets in doing so. Whenever he called me and said it his mom and grandma was dead it was Kinda. You know surreal to me because I knew what the possibilities of of it was that somebody could have came into the home and killed his mom and grandma because I was too involved in the same actions that everybody else was doing. All right. So let's wait a minute. There's a lot going on here. So, first of all braces getting this incredibly jarring news that his best friend's mother and grandmother had been murdered. So this is horrific on its own. But the first thing is, says they say, Tyler, did it meaning that the police were zeroing in on Tyler as the killer of his mother and grandmother but embraces had the only explanation for how or why does happen would be revenge or pushback tyler finally crossed the wrong drug dealer because Tyler's mother fifty, two year old Vicki Logan and his grandmother seventy-three-year-old Wanda Faye Turner had been found dead after Vicki's CO worker Brian Scott Goner home to check on Vicki after she failed to show up to work. When Brian arrived at the home, he walked up and he saw Vicki's car outside in the driveway. He also saw tyler's truck and Tyler answer the door when Brian knocked and he said that he hadn't been aware that his mom had made it to work. It's at this point that Tyler and Brian Scott began to search the home for Vicki when they couldn't find her you walked over to his grandmother Wanda's house, which was nearby and together they discovered the bodies of both Vicki Wanda in the garage of the home according to Kcbs News Brian had known Vicky in her family for years they had breakfast and lunch together, almost everyday at their desks and they worked only ten feet apart from each other. So he was devastated at making this discovery. The autopsy of Wanda's body in the autopsy of Vicki's body revealed that they were both strangled. The cause of wanted death was as fixture from strangulation in the cause of Vicki's was fixed yet from strangulation and blunt force trauma. So they called the police immediately and when they arrive Tyler is in tears the police, then seal off the crime scene and in the bathroom the home in lipstick on the mirror it said quote story we missed you and Outta glance the police believe that the killer had used their bare hands as well as a rope to strangle the women until they were dead. So the police spoke with Tyler briefly and they let him go and told him that they'd be in touch with them. And remember this is all happening. Bryce is learning all this on the phone from a friend. So his mind immediately went to how could help his friend Tyler I had just escaped by moving out of town in going to college eastern Mexico Father Right now, and so he was in police custody at the time. So of course I, hung up with a friend and I packed a bag and I jumped on the highway. bryce is rushing back to Lubbock from college to be there for Tyler. But he's racing home with even more than just of mine. Remember bryce committed the same types of crimes at Tyler had. Of Robbing those drug dealers, the drug deals gone bad. Was it possible that whomever killed his mom and grandma? Could be priceless family. To. He had a million questions running through his head as he raced. To lubbock. Owner for a couple of us, but you know. I had no least anything I mean like I said every time that we ever even did anything I mean we were scotch clean. So bryce is driving back to Lubbock to be there for his friend when a cell phone rings. was maybe thirty to forty five minutes into the drive home tyler calm and at that particular time you know I'm like what's going on? He said my mom and my grandma are dead. And I can't get into the house they confiscated Meyer truck that have no while that I have no money have nothing at this time. Tyler was still nineteen senior in high school i. mean there was nowhere for him to go. I was already on the way into town trying to see what was going on with them, but he had nowhere to go at the time. Nobody would answer nobody wanted anything to do with him at the time tyler called Bryce. Taylor had just given a statement to the police before being released. And his house was a crime scene so he can go home. And he had no money or car keys either. Here's what Tyler expressed on that call. It was upset with the fact that they had questioned him and that they had took his truck his money. He had no form of communication. That's more what he was upset about eight insieme upset about the deaths at all. After his call with Tyler. Bryce called his friend Jessica who was one of his best friends as well as Tyler's on again off again, girlfriend. And so that's when never I call. And I knew that I could convince Jessica to go pick, him? Up? And let him stay at her house until I could get to him and about an hour and a half later Bryce pulled up to Jessica's house. 'cause I walk into her living room and teller sitting on the couch legs spread apart Aziza reaching down in between his legs to foam up. And I'm like, you know, what are you doing? What's the? What are we doing? He looked up at me we're kind of like a blank stare and that's whenever Jessica came out of the back room to delivering instead broke. His grandmother in his mother's dead he needs a lawyer and I'm like whatever you'd the phone book you know get in my truck and let's go. So we left. While we stopped at a gas station I grabbed the newspaper it has his face on the front page, and so as I'm getting back into my pickup, I looked at newspaper. Asked him did you do this price is perplexed by his friends behavior for good reason, tyler schemes attached from the fact that his mother and grandmother had been strangled to death. He's more concerned with himself in getting himself a lawyer. I told him tyler she did this. You need to tell me that you did this. And he was like, no, I did not do it. My Mom, my grandma are dead. Now I gotta worry about staying out of jail is what he hoped. So prices in the car with Tyler, and he's looking at his friend and dealing with a push pole of doubt. His best friend's face is on the front page of the newspaper in the article is essentially pointing the finger at Tyler as the likely killer of Vicky and Wanda. So bryce instinctively starts examining his friend's body searching for signs of defensive ones. Started looking down at his hands, his fingernails and stuff like that, and it was all normal to be us I remember like it was yesterday he didn't have no scratches on it. nothing under his fingernails or anything like that moments later, prices phone rings. One call after the next from Bryce and Tyler's friends explaining the cops had just been in their houses searching for tyler and by now, the cops is an arrest warrant to take tyler into custody. Gas Station to a parking lot and we just started talking we sat there and I knew the nobody. Nobody will be able to find us. newspaper. Is fucking bullshit. He just kept saying. They killed my mom. My grandma got worried about staying out of jail. That's what I was thinking. That's where my head was gone with it. Is that Tyler messed with the wrong people in hopefully? I had nothing to do with. Hopefully I had nothing to do with my parents are You know anybody around me will have to suffer the consequences that I had had. Tyler. Over and over to Bryce that he would never that he could never do something like this. And at this point, Bryce is still clinging to the belief tyler could not be the one to done. This theory remains getting in this parking lot. My phone starts blowing up crazy and. So. One of my friends call and I answered the phone and he tells me he's taller with you. Of course. I'll say no, they said well, the conscious left my parents south they're looking for. Tyler. And I'm like I don't know where he is. So at that point Sam, our blood is the racing in this like you know racing against the clock. I had a particular truck that was It was a limited edition. So in the town that I lived in, it can be spotted from a mile away by new dad tyler knew that and so I looked at him and I told him, we don't have much time. I got destruct and I had a bunch of cash on the Tom and I told them. If you did this, go never see the light of day again if Texas and they're gonNA hang you. And anyone from Texas or anyone with an intimate knowledge of true crime is likely going to be aware of the fact that the lone star state is not known for its leniency when it comes to murderers. So bryce continues to press tyler for the truth even though whether rice realize it or not he already knew it. And he just kept saying I can't believe that they are looking for me. He was like dumbfounded that the cops were even coming to talk to him again. In at this particular time, they had already question him. Whatever evidence that they had found? After that was what? Sealed. The deal at that point in time and so that's what the. Arrest Warrant was issued for. An you know low behold I knew none of it. Until later on, he was definitely the only suspect and the main suspect in they wanna him off the streets as soon as possible prices found kept bringing in the situation was escalating and intensifying. At finally, receive a phone call from a friend, they just left my parents house they're looking for tyler. Everybody that was associated in our group of guys that we ran with the posse that was doing what we were doing. So now, they get to Jessica's house, turn my phone off a major turn his phone off I knew it was just a race against the clock at that point in time. Finally, as tyler sat next to Bryce and his pickup truck tyler started talking he said that he thought he knew why someone killed his mom Vicky and his grandma Wanda he had robbed a drug dealer and in the process he had beaten up the guy's wife and held a gun to the head of the drug dealers sign and Tyler said that the situation quote unquote got ugly. And Taylor thought that it was this drug dealer who had gone after Tyler's family out of revenge. So if you're tired of cooking the same meal over and over and over again and you're looking for something that's easy to cook. But also delicious, you've got to check out green chaff. So Green, chef is a USDA certified organic company that makes eating while easy and affordable with plans to fit every kind of lifestyle. 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So for a limited time heals offering a trial size of their bestselling common sleep drops for free, it will last between five to ten days depending on your personal dosage. So head to heal natural dot com slash first degree to sign up and get your free sample today. That's he'll natural dot com slash first degree heels, natural dot com first degree. Started to truck back up and I ask Tyler I was like do this is the last chance that you get I got this truck. And I got this bag cash right here. You can proceed to go get a lawyer with it. Around with whatever you WANNA do man besides spending the rest of your life in jail. I would recommend that you do it finally tyler agreed to let Bryce, bring him down to the sheriff's department to get everything sorted out. We get to the sheriff's Office. And I remember like it was yesterday it was crazy because. Going downtown next to the police station, put it up at police station with a hundred fifty cops everywhere. No. One's name the metro and wants to see us maybe God just you know watched over me or whatever was going on so I backed in there and. We set for a good twenty minutes all the while as bright sat in the. He wrestled with the idea of whether or not tyler could have done this. Tyler is like prices little brother Bryce was starting to think that he was being naive about believing his friend was not involved. I remember looking down at his fingernails tyler always cut romantic your nails. I didn't see any scratch mark in the fight type of anything to indicate that. It was a struggle he did do it. He had to use gloves or something like that. I was just there been a friend because yesterday I was his friend no matter what like you just don't turn your back on your boys and that's kind of where I was. At the particular time guilty innocent I didn't. Either I think either I told him that whenever? He gets done. I would waiting on him he could go back to New Mexico with me sleep on my couch I told him that I will wait until the evening after eight Sunday dinner with my parents and so you know we both cried, he hugged me a hugged him and we just showed emotion further situation. And if the situation wasn't stressful enough on its own. Remember everyone a Bryce and Tyler's group of friends were freaking out with the fear that the same people who sought revenge on Tyler. Also. Coming for their families to. I had to go back to school the next day. It was already too much going on in the hometown. I was already too involved. Everybody was turning against everybody. Everyone had an opinion against each other and I just no matter time before what we were doing was gonNA come out. He told me Ma'am please don't leave me. I don't have anybody else Bryce I told him to call me whenever they. Finished with you. I don't think it would be very long before we got it ironed out before we figured out who really did. Tyler walked the sheriff's department and Bryce drive away and Rice's head at this point is spinning. He's terrified for his own family and even if they were safe, he was also terrified about the fact that he would have to tell them about what he'd been involved in all of these years he was scared for his friend Tyler and he's also mourning the loss Vicki and Wanda to women he knew very well from going over to tyler. House. All authorized childhood. I could not let anyone know that rolling show or the poster boy Bryce was involved in these types of actions. That's why getting car was not a choice you. Not at all. Then finally as Bryce of adrenaline started to fade reality started to kick in. I was thinking about his mother and his grandmother, and you know what they meant to me and how such nice people in wonderful people they were. Both sweet ladies would do anything for the community anything for any of any wasn't can. Advocate for. She wouldn't do price arrived at his family's house. It's fixed plan. The TV is on. Six o'clock, news comes on and the best route is charged with capital murder for debt of motoring Graham. Headline News every. Everywhere anywhere that you look at it. So, here we go phone calls Crazy everything. So not only in my thinking about this shit we had done. Now thing about this, the people who are about to. Find out that we done. Also, his Mama Grandma killed. In that hail. So now my parents are going crazy I don't WanNa tell them what we've done. So to be clear here's what's going on in Bryce his head he's still thinks that there are men who want revenge and who are out to hurt the families of their group of friends and to top it all off. He's just seen as friends face on the news. I hurry up and finish eating dinner or trying to get out of town as soon as I can I'm sick to my stomach head is hurting. Pulled over on the way back to school appro- up a couple of times. I think it was about seven days before actually calmed down and stopped seeing his mom and grandma I'm standing in dreams understand at every time. I. Close My eyes I could not believe. That Somebody's so close to me. With was dead and not only were they dead they were strangled. So now really panicking. Because my conscience is eating me up. After argue back to school in away from our parents? I have to call and tell them what we've done price picked up the phone to call his parents tell them that their lives may be in danger. They may be next and never forget the phone call that I have with my dad. And he just couldn't believe it and he was so disappointed in. So distraught. In me that I would take apart of you know something. So senseless in stupid enriched my life. Not only was in my life now their life is in jeopardy. So my mom's not only scares she's angry she's disappointed now. Me and my parents conversation. Has Spread to other parents not from them but from their kids obviously having the same conversation with them as I have on my parents didn't know who's next. And in how they were going to do it, and how fast they were going to do our. What was going on I'm back in school seven, eight days go by of just been sick Nas. Dunnigan. Never get out stick I was. Bad. It was every time tyler was questioned by police he denied being involved in the murders. He claimed that he wasn't home at the time the stranglings took place. And he doesn't know who the killer or would be when asked if this was someone killing for revenge, he nodded his head and said quote I would have been laying there to. Insinuating that he was lucky to have escaped scenario with his life. Meanwhile bryce his family and Bryson Tyler's friends and their families. They are all reeling and afraid that they could be next they still very much believed WANNA in Vicki's murders had been revenge slayings. Two weeks after his arrest Tyler was indicted on one count of capital murder, which covers both deaths. He was sent to jail on one million dollars bond. On the day he was arraigned tyler was visibly upset and talking to himself. He cried when the judge said, he was being charged for killing his mother and grandmother. This one I learned a little bit about what was going on. They were able to charge him where capital murder. Charge part of it meant that they had some type of evidence against him. That was allowing them to hold him at a million dollar. I knew that he was in trouble I knew that he was in a whole lot of trouble just by the capital murder had to understand what that meant. You never seen it coming from you know a guy from the good side of town. It was at a private high school at time and you know he was saying that you would say, hi to hug in your. Neighborhood Grocery. Store. Would be the guy that will put a gun in. Your mouth right up the street and look at you and tell you you know where it's at what he wants in. Exactly you know everything about it. was already known now we know how they were done in somebody did it with their bare hands? There were also bodies. Propped up on pillows where the heads was on pillows now ended it's all said and done there's not doubt in my mind that taught it was in there, cleaning it up whenever the workers for more. Popped up at, you know the grandma's house or whatnot at arraignment tyler pleaded not guilty. The evidence against him. He was home at the time they were murdered. When he went to Jessica's after finding the bodies he told her they were strangled in the state argued there's no way he could have made that determination without first hand knowledge. A playstation cord was entered into evidence as the murder weapon. On a mirror written lipstick with the words. Sorry we missed you. which the state set out to prove to be a ruse. The Tyler had written. And while Bryce said, he didn't see any scratches and Tyler's hands. First Responders said, they had noted scratches which seemed to resemble defensive wounds. It was also uncovered the tyler had asked a friend to lie about where he was and give them an alibi for the previous evening. There were no signs of forced entry Wanda's home. And Tyler was the only one who had the code to the Keypad to gain entry to the home. Nothing was stolen from the home. Pieces of duct tape were found throughout the house and blackboard was found under Vicki's body. And finally, some checks found a pair of his boots. That appear to have been stolen from Wanda's checkbook detective also found a blackboard and a pair of gloves and Tyler's truck. The black cord that was found in Tyler's vehicle was described as being similar to that court found lying under Vicki's body. The prosecutor ultimately did not seek the death penalty. But when he announced that decision. He said that Tyler was a spoiled child who killed his relatives out of greed. Apparently that was the motive. They were cutting him off from his money and they were sending him packing. And this was why he did it. Off Trial Tyler was convicted by a jury of capital murder and he was sentenced to life behind bars with the possibility of parole. Truth it was after he got sentenced that I I remember sitting in the courtroom before the verdict was read in my leg was shaking really bad in my mom grandma leg I was like come on locally caught. We caught em see low and I was like, come on come on come on. Come on come on Komo Komo. Was a guilty tyler appeals, his conviction and lost. Lubbock county criminal district. Attorney Mac Powell said that he had prosecuted over one hundred martyrs said when you have the ability to take the life of your mom in really to take the life of your grandmother that's always going to stand out in the manner in which that was done. In this case, it was just pure evil. He continued. This is someone that had a personal vendetta about the people that were killed in that person was absolutely Tyler Logan. Almost ten years later in two thousand, fifteen tyler's father agreed to help tyler pay for an attorney to get his case looked at again tyler coordinated people on his father's side of the family in high school friends to set up a facebook and twitter account to help get a story out there tyler conducted an interview with reporter at the prison in Tyler, still claim to be innocent and that someone else committed these murders. He's still not admitted fault for these murders. He continued he said that if he had been home, he would be dead to he sticking to the story that it was a revenge killing. He also has inmate profiles on quote friends beyond the wall and write a prisoner because he was lonely and looking for companionship per those profiles. And by now Bryson his family had accepted the fact that tyler did this but it wasn't easy. There was a lot of doubt a lot of back and forth and a lot of difficulty accepting the fact that someone that everyone thought that they knew so well could commit such a heinous act. I'm angry I'm not angry at him. I was disappointed I was hurt I was heard the fact that he can let me in my face telling me that he had done it people make mistakes not that type of mistakes, but it's still didn't make me to where I was scared. More, fearful for my mom, my dad and to be honest I was more saying that he had let you know our secret out of the closet in our skeletons come to light. That was what I was more a saying a is that all the golden children that ran around in that was known as the you know the the cool kids kids want to be like now we have reverse that too. Don't go near these also WANNA look tyler in his face, and if he thinks he is a capital murder. Bad. Boy I want to look at his face and he's still young. You know little brother to me that he always was a made us Jeremy I. WanNa know that you know and also want him to know how we can coward Lee he went out. You know he could get a chose any other way besides that you know Mama Grimace I wanna look at them and tell them to face and if he can't tell me that he did I mean I'm definitely say some words who I think he is you know. That'd be a hopefully it goes a different route to where. Not. Financially are physically helped him or anything like that but maybe I can just some light on his heart and. See you know hopefully God forgive him before it's zone? According to the Casey. B. Quote Murder Victim Vicki Logan was a familiar name in the seventies and eighties she was known by Vicky Turner and then was recording music at the Don Caldwell studios in Lubbock. She later moved to Nashville and released an album titled Lily. White. Vicky cared for her mom Wanda because she had heart problems she was loved by all and was described as quintessential sweet grandma they were loved and their mess. Imagine being in college and getting a phone, call the police think one of your best friends from high school a guy you thought of as little brother murdered his mother and grandmother. Where was your mind go? Would you immediately think this can't be true and go into help mode and race home to try to save your brand from being railroaded by the police Or would you be defiant till the very end or as the evidence piled up against him? When will you finally accept it? When bryce admitted his story to us, he sat down and thoughtfully wrote out his experience and here's the ending of what he said. Quote I. believe that he didn't do it and I walked away from friends who thought otherwise. But sitting here today I know he did it. Recently reached out to him with the intentions of me giving him one last chance to come clean. The want him to know what he's done to more than just his mother and grandmother. The ripple effect has been deep friendships were lost. People are affected in the girlfriend has only recently started to heal, and this is Jessica who is referring to. I suffered mental and spiritual battles behind it. I was also labeled as a best friend of capital murderer. Everyone who's Tommy for the next ten years only wanted to speak about tyler and what he did I couldn't escape it. So this proved. Our concept to a T.. These crimes obviously have this ripple effect that many don't see when they see the headlines. Right. It's interesting because everybody also experiences. Their experience of being a first degree. So completely differently. Embrace the story was such a unique a unique perspective. So I really think Bryce for being our first degree today if you have a story, you're listening out there and you would like to tell it please email us. Hello. At the first degree PODCASTS DOT com. You can follow some instagram at the first degree out Alexis linkletter Billie, Johnson at Jax Vanik. Join our first degree facebook group. You're talking true crime all the time and lots of talk of candy corn. Recently, I've raised talking about their favorite Halloween Candy's endless favorite and stick around because we're gonNA kill some time. Remember only you can prevent serial killers. And keep your friends close. But. Back Happy Birthday Happy Teddy bear in your hair day. Very creepy. Shoutout to Monica for a sound design skills and producing original music for the first degree Hala Two are producing team Caitlyn Cleveland Taylor Rogers and Alan Santiago for podcast one sources for today's episode include My Plane View Casey BG Lubbock online ABC Thirteen court documents, and as always our first guest is always our largest source. If, YOU'RE A business owner. You know it is freaking tough I started my jock panic brand when I was twenty one years old and it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do you know what you might be making it harder on yourself the necessary. So don't let quickbooks spreadsheet slow you down any more time to upgrade net sweet stop paying for multiple systems that don't give you the information you need when you need it ditch the spreadsheets, all the old software you've outgrown now is the time to upgrade to net suite by. Oracle. The world's number one cloud business system. So nuts gives you visibility and control over your financial hr inventory ECOMMERCE and more everything. You need all in one place simultaneously and whether you're doing a million or hundreds of millions in revenue save time and money with net. Sweet join over twenty one thousand companies using net. Sweet right. Now, let's show you how the benefit your business with a free product tort netflix dot com slash first-degree schedule your free product or right now at netscape dot com slash first degree that's net sweet dot com slash first degree. You know what's really scary is just how much you could have been saving on car insurance by switching to GYCO. It's almost as scary as that homemade costume that your mom made you earn junior high school no Geiko Cana raised the memory of tripping down the hallway oversized pointy shoes, but they could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. So Stop Waking up at night in a cold sweat wondering what happened to that green ones just switch to Geico and save fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance with the holidays coming up we'd like to offer you a little something special and all we're asking in return is a few moments of. Your time help support a great sponsor of this podcast. We ask that you complete a short survey because your opinion matters to us and our sponsors. It'll only take a couple minutes and if you're one of the first people to do it, we'll give you a reward in return. Just go to podcast opinions, Dot Com and everything will be right there for you. That's PODCAST OPINIONS DOT com the first one, hundred, fifty people who complete the survey we'll get a ten dollar gift card to Amazon Dot Com. All of our shows are supported by advertisers. So filling this out will really help us please go to podcast opinions, dot, com, and as always thank you for supporting the show. Anyone can join a colts if you've ever dived headfirst into a new self help program or believed wholeheartedly and a spiritual practice or even just trust someone with your life. Guess what you're just as long as everyone else no one is safe. Especially, not Megan I. AM the most susceptible we want to dispel the myth that people who joined colts are dumb or naive or. Anyone can be manipulated by narcissist and we should know we both have been. I am Leblanc and I make an Elizabeth and we're real life culture. REIVER's join us every week as we talked to other survivors, believers, experts, and more about their experiences and our experiences with colts extreme belief in the abuse of power you might be not. Available every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. Okay well, welcome to another episode of killing time. I have my other co hosts sitting on zoom. They look so cute together. They're just like cuddling up just two peas in a pod. Piece. Out. Rooney's no justice no peace. Before, we jumped into our killing time I have a question for you both because you're almost dine with your top secret project that you've been working on on the East Coast you've been gone for how many weeks. Five eleven. That's a live we've been gone for five. It feels like seventeen. Okay. You've been gone for five weeks. I just have a quick question for you. What is what do you miss most about being home and what do you miss least about being home? I'll go first I, miss my routine MOS. I Miss You Jack and I miss my friends the most. What I don't Miss I. Don't Miss Los Angeles itself. No Trust. You're not missing anything. Everyday got side and like the air smells like it's like a meadow all of the time there's so many fluffy leafy trees in the wind blows and it smells like fresh grass and there little creatures at run on my property. I feel like snow white like they all come up. And I feel I feel like I live in cleanliness for the first time in ten years it is weird when you're so used to living in. The midst of Hollywood that you don't realize that. Once you leave Hollywood everything is not exactly like that. Shown I I love it here but it's nice that you guys have been. You've gotten to experience actual fall because it's still ninety degrees in La Right now. So I'm very jealous of the fact that you get this. Nice little changing of the seasons that yeah, we we noticed the leaves are actually changing for the first time past couple of days and it's It's glorious. I. Don't want to tell you about the day we had because you'll be really jealous. Tell me about it. We went we looked at this giant architectural house that was first sale it was. This house built in the eighteen hundreds it looked like a medieval castle so We looked at it with a real estate should. And then we we went to a local winery and drink pumpkin beer looking at. It was like a cool sixty four degrees. Mugabe's trying to figure it out the realtor and the end. Did you. Doing. What we said, it wasn't an open house like we we wanted to see this house. The. House. That Alexis has seen in her. In her board or backyard backyard and it was always the house that nobody was ever in it, it's from eighteen ninety-five. Designed by white the famous architect and also ask subject of true. Crime. And we want it looks like a mixture. It's an octagonal house. It's got it's got a room that's like the stretching room from the haunted mansion and Oh, I wanted to say to him like he's like. Well, what are you? Are you? Do you want to move in here whatever like that what our relationship was? Yeah. We wanted to say we didn't want to act. We wanted to act like. We wanted we didn't want we wanted to see in. We didn't want him to be like this is a waste of my time. What's your? What we wanted? We wanted to tell him that we're really interested in becoming ghosts. So when we die this rare, we would want to haunt because it is the ultimate haunted house Oh my. If, we were to get this house. We would have the most epic Halloween parties ever sixteen bedrooms. On it had fireplace never room it has like. All these staircases, it was three floors in the middle from the bottom for you look up and there's an octagon shape and it goes all the way up. So there's More Yeah And it has not been updated probably since the nineteen forties I mean the kitchen was original was was. It was Razi we will post picks actually postponed how much was this for sale for one million dollars Oh. My God, we can afford this billy news should go. Yes. The thing is, is the taxes were sixty thousand dollars a year? Yeah. What it's like a Ra- look-see ocean it's on four acres of property joking with the agent I was like we decided to look at this because we can't like in La. You get like a one bedroom house for a million dollars, but you get like a thousand square foot house maybe. Jock this place had like a formal dining room maid's quarters like wraparound porch on every floor. Then on the roof, it's got like a porch in the shape of an octagon just on the roof chilling still widow's walk up their free will. One of the most famous houses on Long Island. and. There's all these creepy urban legends attached to it. Yeah it would be great to do a makeover show on to restore it to its glory, and then you're GonNa make it over you want you want to receive your. Restore it, but then turn it into one hundred. How has there been any? True Crime House shows I know that there was like the murder flip house but has there been like something like this where you're restoring an old spooky home we were just talking about talking about that. You know there were probably the most famous house in true crime history is the Amityville horror house because a true mass murder happened there guy killed his whole family that there have been talks of moving the turning that into a bed and breakfast actually moving the House to the center of town. There is a family that lives there. Now I've knocked on their door before the guy was not happy with me. I wonder why can't you expect? You know you got your house for probably three hundred grand cheaper and that was a house that originally was called high hopes that was the name of the house before the murders. Famous picture of the crime scene and the picture of the sign that had high hopes on it who named her house get names. Okay. About Alan, houses like the House I grew up in was called by the harbour. This house is called the the the wind throw mention whether whether all those mentioned the one we were talking does mean you're talking about the House that we're actually end airbnb that were in the. Wasn't check house is the Trash Panda Express. Interesting I didn't know that they named houses whenever you're near the it's usually near the water where people are like they're like gawking at your house and stuff. Interesting I need a name, my next house something. Billy what do you miss the most and the least about being home 'cause it also, this is a very unique situation you guys are travelling because nobody else is traveling I would bite off my right arm to travel right now. So you have a nice little. Slice of Heaven that nobody else is experiencing right now. What I miss the most about Los Angeles is a cheap liquor prices the liquor here a bottle of bullet is forty dollars where you can get bullet for twenty four dollars. So there's something going on with the liquor prices, but then again, the two dollars and you can't find alcohol anywhere they don't have it at grocery store. At CVS stores. Liquor stores close at seven thirty. We're like we're out of vodka and it's like Shit it's seven forty we're fresh out of luck good. It's not conducive to working I have. Never, been to Australia, have you been Australia billy now they have the weirdest alcohol prices where they're. They're whiskies the way that they price are backwards. Their most expensive Whiskey is Jim beam and their cheapest whiskey is like Johnny Walker or something. You can you can get your like really fancy with C. for very cheap. That's just a fun fact strange and. While I can't wait for you to be back because. Of, being. Much. What do you miss most about you? Bet. Aspirin but Alexis in particular she needs she needs it for her ego like a little ego boost right now. While I still don't see anybody because I am still taking the pandemic seriously. So I missed some friendship for both of you because you're in my bubble. Yup. We're also getting tested. Every two days? Yes. Doing the nasal thing area. Stock Stockdale tests that we drop at ups and they come back in twenty four hours the results. So they just bought them and we just do it every couple days and you're doing them yourself sticking up in your brain. Until there's mild. Sneeze. The one that I had to do by myself? Then it didn't go that far up. Your brain was the tickly est one I've done. Billy was laughing at me because I was like I can't do it because it just makes me like laugh. It makes me so uncomfortable. Then I try to knows from the inside that's the nose picking. You saw billy, that wasn't real knows picking. About this because I mean youtube bicker literally like your siblings and Billy was talking about how Alexis he finally saw her picking her nose and this is. My nose after I did this test. Okay. Don't make them. Don't how don't ruin the myth don't make me tell them what I see you. Today was eating at a restaurant. And he was teaching burs out of his rap and he threw them on the ground are first of all. We were outside not even on we we were in McGrath Malibu Cafe Jack. We were in the grass. Like some peasant was going to go up after or an animal which we've seen a lot of a restaurant where they're turning over tables. So he's like animals will get it I'm like, oh Billy come on cross. So many animals around us. You know what I will I will. Host a picture, and you will see what actually was going on. It was completed. When I called you? How are you going to prove this with picture is my question I'm GONNA, prove this with a picture and also I'm going to interview the wait staff and they're going to explain that it was completely fine. Your. PICKED UP I'm sure they'll be on your side with this. Discarding trash onto the ground waiting for somebody else to pick it up bull come around with a little dust pens behind pick up after him we were in the grass was basically in a marsh for K. U. is raising a barn. It's fine. I honestly I'm just surprised. You haven't killed each other yet. This is we're in a corner were now having the best time ever I know well, like sometimes you hate each other and sometimes recording gets a little bit awkward. So like I was extremely scared that especially with living together that this would end up being a big issue and maybe the first degree would. D- banding or Miss Band. What's it called when you break up Manley dismantle? Getting just band disband. Shirt. Jared. He's like she's you stupid idiot heard might be the Yoko Ono of of the first degree not obviously not jared never break us up your wants his own. He's GonNa he's GonNa Start requesting to do his own songs now i. Know Jared just needs to be a part of it. He's he's leaning in you know. No I would say we definitely turned a corner me and billy now we're working on the branding portion of our friendship and he's like how's ranbing? Well, we we have to for. Separating for the show and we're sort of like. All right. Well, we're going to create a website. We're going to do these things. No let me do this. Morning, he's brainstorming. I'm like, okay. What are you? Hearing me out. Billy. Alexis. And I was like. And those are. Clean simple. Ellie Alexis way he's like you know like Kate Spade. Or Jack Spade I'm like that's his name. Oh. What are you saying? Those are names he's like, yes, clean in. The point I'm like that's Not, I built a I'm I'm confused as the website is it called Billy Alexis Dot Com. We're going to have a great day where you have to go by that. Url. Nobody's squats on it now. This is the best he's brainstorming. He's got to posted to the two favorite ideas. On No. Doubt these two. One. Says Lexin Billy and one billion lacks. Are you serious? Did he was dead serious Billie holiday? Did this take you to come up with? Do you know you know that you do have a branding expert? Is the third member of your podcast, right? Yes and I was ready to you know fill. On the table pass through and like really like Suss out these ideas or we got tattoos. You guys, Leeann lacks these are my. I'm like. That's what you've been doing all morning long doing actual word. Listen. I was dealing with the trash pan is to I mean, let's be honest. Everybody has their talents and you just shouldn't try to do the things that I asked that I can do better. We'll jack all right brand being Alexis. De tweedle dum game. You can pay me. All right. Well I. Think we killed enough time. Where are we supposed to talk about Halloween? where? We can talk about it next week. Creepy House talk, which is really. Well I'm excited on this house of the guys because I'm definitely going on the four of us us and you and jared, she'd go in on the US because. Ottoman. Concert. Each per year for taxes. That's wild. We'll send or post picks of this house zillow. This House you guys are gonNA lose their mind. We will do a crowd funding thing and you y'all can can all buy it there? Are Well I believe we've called enough time. Let's call it. You it billy. Fifteen O nine.

bryce tyler Brighton Tyler Tyler Lubbock Vicki Wanda murder Vicki Jessica Texas Alexis linkletter Billy Tyler Logan tyler logan elementary Dallas Caitlyn Cleveland Taylor Roger Rice Vicky Turner
Oklahoma City Bombing, Part 2

The First Degree

42:32 min | 11 months ago

Oklahoma City Bombing, Part 2

"Thank you for listening to this podcast one production. Now, available on Apple, podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast. All right. So it's officially fall in a lot of people out there like to switch things up whether that be their wardrobe, their makeup or their hair, and if you WANNA switch your hair up at home, you can take calling your hair at home to the next level with Madison. Reed with Madison. Review get gorgeous professional hair-color delivered to your door starting at twenty two bucks for decades. Women have had two options for colouring their hair either outdated home color or the time and expense of a traditional salon. But many madison re clients comment about how their new hair color has improved their lives. And women. Love the results is gorgeous shiny dimensional, healthy looking hair and this game changing color. You can do at home and look as if you just came from the Salon and what makes Madison require unique is that it's crafted by master colors who nuances of light dark cool and warm tones treat over fifty five gorgeous multidimensional shades and you can find your perfect shade at Madison Dash Reed Dot Com and our first degree listeners can get ten percent off plus free shipping on their first caller kit with code first degree podcast. That's code first degree podcast and that in Dash Reed. Dot Com. Degree degree. degree. I agree the degree. Things are supposed to have it in movies not. Everybody members that day every knows exactly where they were that day who they were sitting by were doing. Just, like people who you know the JFK assassination people there on nine eleven. And it's the same for. Oklahoma and Welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on my name is Jack Panic I'm sitting very far away from Alexis linkletter and Billie Johnson, and it's gotten to the point where I'm over this distance bullshit. US to Jack Museum. A Lot. You guys have gotten close physically closer. I have gotten physically and emotionally sadder. This is not fair I. Want you back to be back I. Miss. You guys so much I know we'll have a big celebration when you get back. Billy Billy. Billy. What Day is it today? We have a lot to choose from. Is International Chewing Gum Day you love eight piece of Gum. I know that Alexis does not chew them. You don't chew come at all Nineteen Team Jay you know I do to do should I not be chewing gum? Oh. WHAT ELSE DOES IT BELLY? Also national mud pack day I'm sure both of you ladies have done the mud pack at some point in your life I don't even know what that is state. You put the mud on your face and never done that before. What do you do for the mets on your face? You've never gone to a SPA and they give you a mud pack. Oh, look mudbath. Yeah I've done mudbath. Sure. That's the right thing building. That's what it says mud pack day. See That's interesting but else what else we got I need something more exciting international podcast day but. That's derivative. To on the nose to nose and it's ask a stupid question day. Oh. All right. What a stupid question billy stupid question is. Anything Billy asks. Stupid question is, how did I end up here? which how did I hear? It doesn't matter you. No, it wasn't meant to be funny because my life is tragedy. Oh my God you guys are both on one today and it's On a level that I, I don't know if I'll ever be able to reach. So I think that's enough of that. So let's turn down the lights. And turn up your anxiety. Because this could be you. We left off last week with the story of Megan and her mother June Megan's experience was agonizing as she spent April nineteenth of nine, hundred, Ninety five not knowing the fate of her mom following the horrific bombing at the Alfred p Murrah building in Oklahoma City. While we will still have the honor of including Megan's perspective. In this episode, we're adding a second person's narrative to this story someone who's life was altered in such Broadway's it's difficult to articulate. So let me introduce you to Ron. Brown. Nineteen ninety hours a secret service agent was in the Phoenix field office. I was primarily doing investigations fraud. Credit card our bread butter counterfeiting protective intelligence, which are threats against the president. Now I met Ron on the second night of my book tour and he was my arm guard. I had armed guards at every night in my book tour and it was in. PORTLAND. And he stood behind me we didn't really talk. But then after we got through all of the signings and everything we got to talking and then he was such a nice guy had to run to the airport and it's like I'll drive you. On the way to the airport, he told me story after story that were just intense. He was a super nice guy. He was in the Secret Service and the stories that he just laid out I, really really wanted to get him on this podcast and as soon as we had another first degree come to US Meghan and she told us her first degree about Oklahoma City bombing. This was the opportunity I contacted him again and he was he's just such an easygoing guy like, yes. Sure. Let's do it and I think we actually talked to him while he was on a stakeout because he's a Pi now. Okay back to the story Jack Where are we? Okay. So back in April of Nineteen ninety-five Ron have been married for only six weeks. His new wife was named Cindy and she was also and the secret service. We got married in. In her Sherman Texas. So. About forty five miles north of Dallas. That's where she was from. I met Cindy in training probably thought I was a bit of loose cannon or something. She's very. Very proper southern type. Lady and I'm a little bit more of an Okie from Muskogee. So we we got together try to keep. The relationship is quite as we could and then. I went to Phoenix, as my first duty station and she was in Oklahoma City. And We would see each other you know weekends or we could or whenever we got some time, which isn't a lot of time because. You're busy especially in new agent travel. You've cases you're working on all that kind of stuff. The morning of April Nineteenth nineteen ninety-five was like any other day Farrand until it wasn't. In the office I usually worked out in the morning and I got back into the locker and dressing, and we had these texts pages and I was I was getting all these pages from like all these different area codes and I was like this kind of weird. So I went to the office and. My Office manager there. So, there's been a bombing in Oklahoma City and I'm like one. And they look at it TV and Samara. Federal Building. So immediately started calling. Cindy. You know get a hold of her and. Couldn't get ahold of her. and. Then somebody called the. Tulsa office and they said Hey ron you to get here as quick as you can. And I knew right then. Without anyone telling me she's probably you know she probably was killed in the bombing. Flew out there in these dad met me at the airport. And you could tell. He was. He was trying to put a halfway decent face on it. This is kind of the way. We started looking at. You know hospitals and all this kind of stuff, and then we we drove around and actually you know because I have a badge badge through barricades and all that kind of stuff gas where they actual building was got to the actually foot of the building and it was just I mean at one side was just. Absolute rubble and I started climb up and much the firemen like grabbing the in house Kinda getting a little bit of fight with a couple of Cindy's dad, said. His wife's in their these guys are. Pretty tough dudes just. A couple and start crying. Semi work the Oklahoma City Secret Service, office, which is on the top floor of the Building, and while relief washed over some people as they learn, their loved ones had survived the bombing ron was not so lucky. CYNDI. Didn't make it out alive. I think I consciously thought about this I knew that she was gone. I did not want to become a burden to bunch of people. And so I just kinda stuffed emotion down and said I'M GONNA BE I'M GONNA try to be a marine here and not lose it in front of everybody. And I kinda. That's that's the way I thought about this for a long time. And I just You know I had my moments by myself but I didn't. I never wanted to be that way in front of anybody else. So I didn't I didn't want to be. I guess I want her to be the focal point I didn't I didn't WanNa be the guy that people are looking at you know so. I Let's not some noble guy. Just I didn't want that. So I just didn't. I just got stuff that down inside of me and just like, okay, I got things to do I gotta be. GotTa be. Strong for other people. The search and rescue effort was exhausted. and Law enforcement personnel remained focus on that effort until they were sure that anyone who could be rescued had been rescued out of the rubble. Then as the literal and figure dust settled the number one question on everyone's mind was of course. What the hell happened. And who was responsible? The remains of the federal building would now become the most scrutinized crime scene in the world. But as news of the bombing spread nationally. People began to speculate. And I remember this vividly in the tone on radio and TV immediately after the blast. Everyone was pointing fingers and they were pointing fingers in one direction, the Middle East. Came in and people were saying. Middle Eastern terrorists or something. I. Mean. That's kind of what. I guess at the time, that's what went to people's mind just the way it was set up and stuff. So you know as as a days by Kinda obviously figure it out. People are so quick to blame these foreigners Muslims Islamics it's them them. Then it's everybody that doesn't have the same belief system whatever that may be in. That's because just two years earlier in February of ninety three terrorist originating from Middle East bombed the World Trade Center in New York City and two years before that the United States has gone to war with Iraq the nation waited with bated breath for someone from the Middle East to take credit for this deadly bombing. As the FDA process, this massive scene and conducted interviews with witnesses it became clear that a number of individuals reported seeing an unknown man driving a Ryder rental truck within close proximity of the building and the man was white with the crew cut. Scheduled created of this man who became known as John Doe Number One. The presence of this man near the building emerged as significant when investigators discovered a telling piece of evidence in the form of an axle of a Ryder truck, and this would eventually be keyed identifying the man who murdered one hundred sixteen individuals including Ron's wife Cindy. Right in this excellent flown from the scene of the crime and landed a staggering two blocks from the building. Luckily, on this axel, the vehicle identification number, the Vin number have remained intact and they trace the number back to a writer chuck that belonged to a rental agency. Investigators traced location of where the truck had been rented and it was an auto body shop in. Kansas. They get the the description of the man who rented the truck and then discovered that the same man. Into a motel. So they go to the Dreamland Motel in. Junction City Kansas and they learned on April fourteenth a man checked into room twenty five the man's name Timothy. McVeigh. When officers hold a photo of McVeigh, he resembled a composite sketch of John, doe number one, the man seen near the Murrah building before the explosion. A working theory emerged. It was believed that a Ryder truck loaded with explosives had been driven to the front of the Murrah building part. And then the explosives were detonated. Meanwhile police have identified the man they believed to be responsible for this horrific violence as Timothy McVeigh. But where was he now? unbeknownst to them, he was already in custody. Here's what happened less than two hours after the explosion in Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper named Charlie Hanger was driving in his cruiser outside of a town called Perry, and this is about sixty miles north of Oklahoma, city. So he was driving north on the I thirty five when he passed a beat up nine, hundred, seventy, seven mercury marquee. Not Unusual. But what was unusual was the fact that this car was missing its license plates. So officer hanger pulled the car over and approach via com behind the wheel was a guy in his mid twenties. He was clean cut get a crew cut. He was wearing a t shirt with a graphic of Abraham, Lincoln on it along with the words of the man who shot him in death, sic semper trenice which by the way. Means thus always to tyrants. So over the t shirt, the man was wearing a windbreaker when he got out of the car officer hangar could see that he was wearing military type boots as well on the back of this guy's t shirt was quote from Thomas Jefferson, the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of Patriots, tyrants the officer us man what his name was and he replied Timothy McVeigh. So I have struggled with acne breakouts and generally bad skin for the majority of my twenty s and it was always so hard to try to figure out what skincare products are going to be the best for my skin. But that's why I love our sponsor cure allergy so whether you're trying to take control acne or acne is no longer your top skin concern fine lines dark spots, occasional breakout or clogged pores cure algae will customize a prescription formula three active ingredients pick for. You to tackle your skincare needs. 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They have an errand fused cover with a soft touch field that keeps your skin dry skin is the friction of Pat and liner rubbing on your skin me. 'cause you're tation therefore, it's important to have protection that will keep you dry. So for like days reach for their panty liners and we need more protection they've got you covered with their Supernova night observances when periods happens stay protected and help prevent feminine discomfort with Carefree Breathe Ultra. Thin pads. So if you want to check out carefree breathe for more information or to buy check it out on Amazon or Walmart Dot com or you may find it at your local grocery store or CVs. When the officer asked for proof of insurance he said, he didn't have any. When the officer asked? McVeigh where he was going. He said that he was taking a road trip through multiple states. And he was in the middle of moving to Arkansas. Seems like a reasonable story. But the only thing was when the officer looked in the back seat, he didn't see any bags with clothing. And he looks in the front seat hints any maps there is nothing to suggest this person was on any sort of overnight trip, much less a move. According to the LA. Times when officer hangar asked the man for his driver's license, he reached into his back pants pocket to grab it and when he did that his windbreaker tightened on his side. And the officer could see a bulge of what appeared to be a gun holster. Officer Hangar asked him to reveal what he was packing and it was a loaded glock. The man also said, he had a six inch long knife in a sleeve connected to was belt. Officer Hanger Arrested Twenty Six year old Timothy McVeigh for carrying a concealed weapon. and. Hangar drove this guy to the local courthouse McVeigh was chatting to him about random things according to the LA Times McVeigh quote Ronald off the serial number of gun correctly except for a single digit, he asked hanger how fast is car ran what kind of firearm carried and how he could get his own gun back and. He was booked into the Noble County jail as inmate nine, five, zero, five, seven. and. Two as McVeigh sat in the local jail, the chaos and confusion of the Oklahoma. City bombing continued to unfold around the world. It was assumed that this bombing would be attributed to the enemies in the Middle East when the true perpetrator, a white American male was already behind bars for a concealed carry violation. The morning McVeigh was supposed to go before a judge, but the judge had to reschedule. So the hearing was scheduled for Friday of that week three days after the bombing of the Alfred p Murrah building. As, the investigation continued people who had lost loved ones like Ron were still reeling and processing what had happened in. There were also practical concerns like funerals. Toll thing about getting her body down to Texas and The director she could service I think had to step in on that one but. Like. You can't take it. You know this is still an investigation I'm like I'm like talking to people I go. Get her ready to go down to Texas for a funeral or off steal the body. And I'll take her down there myself. And I don't know how many times. Yelled at funeral people are cops or whoever was but. Some Guy said, you know we had a fight grape top and She likes white roses, and so I said, well, we need to put a rose on top of the coffin. Those guys you can't put. I`Ma Marine put whatever they. Want on top of Rick often. So there's an rose on top of her Flag, atop coughing. The losses of the Oklahoma City bombing can't be quantified with the number of victims who lost their lives. The reach of the suffering is far greater than that about a week before. The Oklahoma City bombing we she came to Phoenix and then we went out to. SEDONA. was. Easter. And say that a better breakfast and. Last time I saw that. The airport in Phoenix. No. Kidding. She probably the nicest person I've ever met. And I'm a little rough around the edges town the time. That didn't even faze her at all just pretty nice in our secret service class. She kinda brought the whole class together and nobody. I never heard. A crossword about her she was universally liked in her office. So. She she would have been a great. A great agent who would have been a great wife a great mother she would have. We would we would have stayed together forever and it would have been. Getting, married that's just not the way it happened so. Eventually. The connection is made in law enforcement figures out mcvay is in custody and they do this by running his social security number after he's identified through the rental agency where he rented the Ryder Truck. Now there's a face assigned to this tragedy in the public. Finally could put a face to this phantom who murdered so many and investigators in the press begin to try to figure out who Timothy McVeigh was in why he would do something like this. So. McVeigh was born in Lockport New York in nineteen, sixty eight, and as a teen he liked to thinks he was named most promising computer programmer. Like computers. He also liked guns. He went to college he dropped out then he worked as a guard at an armored car company. When he turned twenty, he enlisted in the army and he served in Operation Desert Storm. He wanted to be in special forces, but he washed out on the second day. Left the army with an honorable discharge in ninety one. During the siege. At Waco. With David Koresh and the branch Davidians actually drove to that scene. and. He was seen handing out pro gun rights, leaflets, and bumper stickers. One of the bumper stickers read when guns become outlawed I will become an outlaw. And situation at Waco really affected him in after the Final Waco. Assault. He became fully radicalized. He produced videos railing against the ATF. He sold ATF hats with bullet holes in them. He began building bombs. For Him The people that worked for the government were stormtroopers and fascist tyrants. Even wrote at one point ATF. Your tyrannical mother will swing in the wind one day for your treasonous actions against the. Constitution of the United States. He had the right to his beliefs. He has the right to worship whatever got he has the right. To. Whatever. Disgusting deplorable. Culture he was in, he didn't have the right. To do what he did. Nobody does I. don't care where you come for care what you believe. You know there's fruit loops all over the place in fact I read. Hundreds of them that made threats gets president whether they're. You know off their meds that day or there's some zealots from some group or whatever it is so And all sorts of different nationalities because it didn't really I just knew the guy from my limited secret service experience at the time. Was A nut. I. Mean. What does that nobody? Constantly, goes I'm going to blow up this building and kill these innocent people to make this point if they're not. Crazy. I just think I don't care about the political phillies care what they think about stuff when you when you cross that line and you're killing innocent people, it doesn't it doesn't matter what you are. And what your causes or anything else you'd just deuce bagging you need to be taken down. Timothy McVeigh's actions back in. Nineteen ninety-five five would foreshadow a trend in violent crime that we are currently in the midst of domestic terrorism is at a fever pitch and it presents itself in the form of mass shootings single white guy with a gun mass shootings common occurrence every week in recent history. And seemed to have waned only this year because of the pandemic. But make no mistake. The Lone American Wolf with a grudge is alive and well. And unfortunately is plotting his next move. It's one thing to identify the culprit. We had the WHO, but we still don't have the why. Or the how in the biggest question at this point did Timothy McVeigh act alone in part one, we discuss Meghan story of not knowing for mother made it out alive in this episode, we talked with Ron Brown who shared with the experience of losing his wife in this attack. In our next episode, we will cover the trial of Timothy McVeigh, the saga that will ultimately end at seven fourteen. Am June eleven two thousand and won Miss Sterilized Room and Tara. Hosts Indiana. All right. Well, huge to both and Ron for sharing their stories with us. They'll both be with us next week for the conclusion of a three part series on the Oklahoma. City bombing. Until then. You. Have a story you would like to share. You can email us hello I degree podcast, Dot Com follow us on. Instagram at the first degree out Alexis letter at Billie Johnson at Jack Vanik join our facebook group just by searching the first degree in the search bar we are talking true crime all the time and stick around because we're going to kill some time. And remember only you can prevent serial killers. And keep your friends close but. Not. Close. Almost. Happy. Ask a dumb question day these days sucked. A big. Thank you to Jared Monaco, original music and sound design shoutout to are producing team caitlyn CLEVELAND. Taylor Rogers and Allen Santiago for podcast one sources for today's episode include The Times and the FBI and as always our first guest is always. Source. You know over the past six months or so I've been a little bit more stressed out than usual I'm sure maybe you have to and it's been a little bit hard for me to sleep the normal. But that's why I love this thing that I've been adding to my routine, which is he list naturals. So heels naturals is one hundred percent natural and clean ingredients CD based brand that actually works and one thing that makes us different from other. CBD. Brands that he'll has taken on the highest quality US grown organic CBD, and blended it with other clinically tested natural ingredients that are known to work with your body to help you find com. Without the brain fog or help you fall asleep stay asleep and wake up without any morning groggy nece. 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That's T. R. Y. AN OEM dot com slash degree for fifty percent off a two week trial. Did you know that right now GEICO's offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car motorcycle and RV policies. That's fifteen percent on top of all the money that guy who could already save you. So what are you waiting for your dog to make you breakfast in bed as nice as that sounds is probably never going to happen. But at least there's never been a better time to switch to geico saving extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh visit GEICO DOT COM to learn more. Welcome to another episode of killing time Alexis and billy are attached at the head we're good to go. Here, we are ready to seize the night. copay. DM. Our pay evening car pay. No everything. All. bitches knocked. Probably Reserve Salad I did used to have a t shirt that said carping knock them my think if that's correct. Yeah, and it had like a wolf feeling into the. Did you say I said carpet rectum I did hear and then actually I'm surprised he said that Alexis. Seems like it's not up your comedy wheelhouse I'm really not myself knew she burks earlier she she audibly birthday that were just like you're not a robot you actually. It was amazing. If if everyone only knew how much burbs like it is it's bad I'm sorry for I. Feel really bad for jared. Funny I. No. Longer. If he doesn't care whatever. Okay. So I wanted to tell the tale in killing time and and really get your feedback. So I am raising my embryos and I'm doing it this place called. They're like the best in the country and we're in the beginning of this process of freezing embryos and what one of the first things you have to do is you have to get blood tests. So I had to get a blood test for my hormones and then you have to get like infectious diseases, blood tests and jared had to also get a blood test with me. It's it's two things that he needs to do for this process, right? So, we go to get our blood tests and they take us into two separate rooms and they're taking the blood and jared kind of texting like how are you doing whatever and he texts me? He's like, okay I'm done. He's like they did they took it all out I'm flat. What did you say deflated? Near. So he says he's deflated and I was like. Okay, well, I'm still going whatever. So then I. Come Out of the place to go find jared impure happened you. Texted you because I started to feel I, was I'm finding with needles get I don't get like he's not scared of needles apparent apparently. So they do the whole procedure I go back into the waiting room and I'm sitting there and then Ice my vision narrowed like time and I started to get really lightheaded. So I texted Jack knows like I have to go back to the jeep I can't sit in this room anymore I'm. GonNa pass out. So I get up and I go to the elevator we're on the third floor and as it's going down the motion of it like puts me basically on my knees like about to like I'm almost down and the whole time. All I can think of my head is this is the only thing I have to do in this entire process like jackass to get stabbed for like a month straight. With needles and I was like if I can just make it back to the jeep. I'll be fired pass out. I'll never hear the end of this for the rest of my life. And I I like barely made. Of covered in sweat my entire shirt was like covered. It's like literally soaking soaking wet. Yeah. It was bad and then I so I come out of like the whole situation. I'm like skin my way the jeep I'm like whatever. Can fans like he's like they took so much blood. I was like, well, how much did they take? He goes four vials like Jerry. They took nine vials for me and I'm on the second period. She literally came skipping out of that place like I was. Like a half dead and Jack just came with a big smile on her face like running. Jack is a ray of sunshine and she's a special human but. have. You considered the possibility that this is psychological. Like in what way? Will this sounds like this sounds like what I have when I have panic attack only was it sounds like it can't just be I get them at the doctor's office to not because it's from your subconscious and it's you thinking like doctors offices make people really nervous in May, open up all these floodgates about like death in in weird things. So it could just be weird stuff. Weird fears that you have haven't even addressed I really hope that's what it is because it could just be really weak, right? Maybe of low iron maybe that blood test will tell you that Oh. Yeah. What if the test actually tells me why the test almost put me out? US. We'll see it was just so funny because it's like jared, you have one thing like I'm literally I'm getting stabbed him being put under should is getting extracted from my body and jared husted you like get one. Tiny vial of blood taken and it almost I could just hear Jack's voice. So when I was going down I was like I, know I know what she's going to say bypass out. No matter what I have to make it back to the car like one hundred percent. Yeah. Well, it's like him jewelry on different scale. It's him jury like times a million because I was fine. Right we'll. Maybe it's because you guys didn't answer the very important question. I asked you in the group Chat, which is whether you guys would name one of your embryos after me. Answer that I don't know I don't remember that question but this is like my question. About that is if we name an embryo and that's one that ends up getting taken to I need to name my child excess. No just embryo. To, working. Title Yeah Yeah and then if it's born in might have like, oh, it's like Alexis it might have tank like abilities. Yeah. It'll like get some characters just by Osmosis. Alexis has had a really long day. We've been shooting a lot and they're like, yeah, do your makeup look really good and put a mask on. I'm like wait wet and then like. How do you look good with a mask on in then take it off messes up. You're making your Meka. Well, then why don't you just not even put makeup on the bottom half of your face I think that's the glory of wearing amount of. Part of my face, we still have to we still have to actually. Then they make take it off right before they shoot We don't wear it when we're actually doing the interviews, but like they want you to wear it to the final moment and like then how do I touch up in not an I'll just go on like we but now my lipsticks all over my face. and. Then forget it. What about that mosquito bite I got in my head I know do we want to talk about this? Yeah. So we are are Ed, we can't divulge a lot of, but we're out sort of in the country and the this specific. Has a pond and it's got a bunch of it's very much in the woods and I look over lots of stagnant water lots of stuff. Don't want her and I look over at Alexis and she has a giant bomb directly in the center of her forehead and she had to do I believe it was the first. She knows inertia it was the first tests it was in the middle of she had already done one interview at another you're going to do and she literally got bit by mosquito right in the center of her forehead and it blew up I'm highly allergic it was completely noticeable. Nobody yet yeah, and she's like, does it look bad I'm like. The. Picture and show me he's like, no. And I sent it to the Group Chat That Jackson with all my girlfriends and it was just like everyone was trying to be sweet like you need a funny way I'm like, no like let's not block I. Don't think that cat dead I don't have. I want sugar in. DP though and he he shattered it. Shadowed it free for. US It'll be it'll be. An Eastern Yeah. That will be an Easter egg honestly is the most Alexis thing to ever happen. Wide I. Look Good. Alexis you. So you text group chat and you were still there. Yet Boca, you her group chat and you're like I'm a TV Unicorn and then you didn't send a picture with it unlike I'm like, as Alexis, like bragging about her first day on the job, you're like a native I'm like on TV now. And I was like this is very off brand in this feels weird and then finally like fifteen minutes later you're like the the picture not come through it. We're like, no. And the picture finally came through now this makes. There you go. Really I'm a TV, Unicorn. defecating I would never do and then I was like Oh shit. That's how it sounded is the picture you can go through. Realize then, but I swear it looks like I have a horn. It's not good. No, it does look like a budding abutting horn-like the beginnings of Amorn. anyways it. was. A whole different show but yeah, has it gone down like has gone down for the rest of your interviews? Yeah. went away immediately it was just like I just have an initial battery action. It was done by that night. So just perfect for bright right as you were filming right as yes. Exactly I love has there been any other. Like points that have stuck out to you guys over the past week of filming that you'd like to share that. You can share other than the point on. Alexis his forehead other than the point on Alexis forehead. Billy did a cool one billy went to. Right here, we can't talk. No it was good. Now. We're doing some good stuff. Yeah. So cryptic everyone but yes. A lot of fights a lot of fights on camera. Oh. And the Kurds like. Okay, I'm really confused. You're like is. There their fights pertaining to the case? And pertaining to. You know our theories about it and how we should approach different things here or there I mean maybe it'll make television maybe we'll get arrested I. have a feeling. They're probably not gonNA air those fights it's not like this is a reality show though I mean I wish that we could air all of the behind the scenes on the situation, but doesn't seem like the type of show but true crime reality show them. Your fights it's real. I mean, they're good points. I'm making good points and I'm convincing her that she's wrong. I don't dignify that with a response. Okay I think that we need to leave. Let's call this. Nightmare.

The Times Timothy McVeigh Alexis US Ron Brown Oklahoma Middle East Phoenix billy Cindy officer Oklahoma City Texas jared Madison Dash Reed Dot Com Federal Building Alfred p Murrah building Jack mets president