7 Episode results for "Fifty Three Cubits"
Quantum Supremacy, WTF?
"Nature last week the company announced that it reached something called quantum supremacy Google says it has achieved the impossible quantum supremacy google's google has been cooking up something big in a study published in the journal ability assigned to it that's the key a regular computer or what computing experts would call a classical computer like your laptop or your phone those so here's a thought experiment imagine a ball and a hill your task is to get that ball to land on a specific spot at computers can only try one possible pathway at a time to get an answer but a quantum computer can get to the right answer more efficiently that's not super intuitive on today's episode where explaining quantum computing and why two of the biggest tech companies Google and IBM are obsessed with it is finally doing things instead of just feeling like this almost mythical dream for decades so shit's getting real and we're going to tell you why computer is a machine that performs calculations using the laws of quantum physics as opposed to guess your classical computer like your own your desktop computer that behaves according to the laws of classical physics so a classical computer computes using bits and bits can be either one or zero it's frankly ridiculous it always makes me feel like electrons are going to take over the world but people have been waiting for this to happen for a long time you have these many different possible states your quantum computer could be in when you are working through your calculation and each of those states has many of us have been waiting the term quantum supremacy are made out of quantum material and a cube it can be in a position of one or zero or it can be described by the probability that it's in one or the probability that's in the position zero so what is the advantage of that system the advantage of that system is but don't worry because I got you I am here for you and we're all GonNa do this together so Kevin what's a quantum computer like for years we've been waiting for announcement of what people call quantum supremacy in that's what Google announced this week that's Kevin Hartnett he's a senior writer for the math I promised I'd explain Google's quantum supremacy news but to do that I I have to make you eat your veggies by talking about Physics Mario Jim Ross this is recess and physics magazine Quanta and the Google news got him fully learning out because of Google announced means that a special type of computer called a quantum computer go any number of ways down the hill and up at any number of different spots at the bottom but there's only one spot at the bottom that's the correct so if you're if you have a classical computer the best Google says it's the first quantum computer to achieve supremacy of traditional computing as when a quantum computer can perform a task that a classical computer couldn't do select the foundation of code basically exactly it's that's what that's what code is now a quantum computer doesn't use bits uses quantum bits or cubits and these to bid the bottom of the hill so imagine that you're at the beginning of the Compu- computation you are at the top of a hill and you're gonNA roll a ball down the field and it could you can do is kind of role that ball down the hill and see where it lands and see if it's the correct answer or not so you're constantly running the ball up the hill and then you get to drop it once time but with a quantum computer you have the ability to kind of Structure Your Ju- bits so that the path the ball down the hill is in some ways the the most likely path takes down the hill is the one that corresponds to the correct answer at the what does this have to do with my life here's the really amazing thing about it goose team proven it can work is the hollow moment for quantum computing computer but when it comes to speed sometimes the newest flashiest mode of transportation isn't the most reliable so you have to ask yourself when does the hill so you can kind of tip the hill tip the scales in your favor in order to get to the correct answer a whole lot faster a lot faster that is the whole Shebang right there a quantum computer should theoretically be able to get you an answer a heck of a lot faster than and then maybe you get the correct answer if you don't you gotTa Roll it back up the hill and trial over again that's right it's a it's a lot of effort it takes a lot of for quantum supremacy to quantum supremacy is a benchmark that was set about seven years ago in two thousand twelve by a physicist coming in calculation with a quantum computer become undeniably more efficient than doing the same thing with a classical computer that in a nutshell is the quest in any practical timeframe and that also is the extent of our understanding and by that I mean is it an mine now why do we care about this before you just say you know hey nerd faster than regular computers but a lot of people doubted whether it was possible to actually achieve a calculation like that in practice so oh ordinary classical computer can match what exactly does that mean there's this idea that quantum computers should be able to perform calculations much fat supremacy is the moment a quantum computer actually performs a calculation that a classical computer simply can't keep up with because if you give a classic named John Prescott at California Institute of Technology Caltech and what quantum supremacy means is a quantum computer can do something that no oh computer enough time maybe even more time than we have left in the universe it can do anything a quantum computer do supremacy means a quantum computer it it's owned by IBM and it's as big as two basketball courts Google's quantum computer on the other hand probably fits in your bedroom and you can do something in a categorically faster way then a classical computer can do it the world's most powerful classical computer is called it has a name to by the way it's called Sycamore so what Google did was give Sycamore very specific problem to solve called a random circuit sampling problem and what loved in two hundred seconds so what Google announced is that basically dunked really hard showed is that their computer can solve this random circuit sampling problem in about two hundred seconds and the most powerful classical computer in the world which is called summit will google estimated it would take computer ten thousand years to solve the same problem that their computer saw who'll didn't dunk as hard as it says it did. IBM is certainly skeptical issued a paper saying not so fast doc on IBM's most powerful computer the most powerful computer classical computer in the world it dunk tarred in the sense of this particular problems soon how we did it and I should also that IBM themselves they are perhaps schools biggest competitor in the effort to build a quantum computer embassy which is you're trying to prove that a quantum computer can do something faster than any classical computer can so proving supremacy most people are pretty comfortable saying that what Google did if it fully checks out is in fact a demonstration of quantum supremacy so is IBM also going to if they only take a couple minutes to carry out the calculation that we can't do if we need years or tens of thousands of years except that if you ask IBM I haven't actually done it because Google estimated in their paper that it would take a the most powerful ordinary computer ten thousand years to carry out this calculator he truly proving supremacy would involve proving there's no way classical computer can do this kind of problem as fast as a quantum computer rush and you could say if that that feels like a big deal is it a big deal it is a big deal it's a big deal in a practical sense right there are lots of things we can do personal quantum computers in our future that's after the break so I have a small dog named Reggie on King and IBM that just wants to do a layup because they know that it works and it's the same amount of points I'd say so and it it seems like Google has been all you need a classical computer the size of a city to simulate that same calculation and that's the sense in which the quantum computer is doing things published Google's quantum computer is significantly faster than the most powerful classical computer in the world but what exactly are the possibilities with this are tactically minded so this is a difference between Google being the kind of basketball player that wants to two straight up flip in the air before allegorically faster than a classical computer and I think that difference is really what people have in mind when they talk about quantum supremacy and that's why picky dogs so if you're ready to start a pet shop like this and you want to be your own boss but you're still asking yourself now what start with mail chimp that's why little bigger if instead of fifty three cubits they have seventy cubits now a classical computer that fills two basketball courts won't be able to keep up so as IBM just a sore loser or is this a very good point that they're making well the play they're making is good and it does point to something important about Sir demonstrates supremacy anytime soon IBM has been on the record for a while now that they are not chasing the goal of quantum supremacy they view it as an or animated by the basic science of it and kind of the sense of possibility an exploration my man Kevin with the perfect segue so we've so Kevin the computation they google perform to demonstrate quantum supremacy is it useful it's not useful learn more about the only marketing platform and MAIL CHIMP DOT com email marketing solution you can jump Start Your Business and your brand building your audience which in this case is owners of very picky Chihuahuas as you get your Hustle Shen and IBM said actually that most powerful computer which we designed can do this in two and a half days in probably even faster than that if we had time to find reading quantum supremacy the engineers at Google compare it to the hello world program that the first apple computers ran and it's off the ground Milton makes it easy giving you everything you need to create publish manage and measure multichannel campaigns that can specifically target owners NYC expect that in my lifetime people will be walking around with phones that are actually super fast quantum computers unfortunately no unofficial benchmark will you could cross it and still not doing anything useful so they at least in their public statements have been much more it wasn't useful to anybody but they showed it's possible and that probably inspired lots of people to follow their lead and develop the very practical kibble to find the thing that she might actually Wanna eat I've looked for a company that does this of looks for a pet store and I can't find one so if there is a company like that out there travel industry we have today and I think the hope is that Google demonstration of quantum supremacy will be similarly inspirational for the quantum computing in the sense of being practical this random circuit sampling problem really is very specialized almost tailor made for the purposes of Demonstra have that kind of proof here it took the most powerful classical computer in the history of the world a computer that occupies an area the size of two basketball it'd be great if they had good marketing one option is male chimp it has everything you need all in one place to give your business the strongest start with the right marketing with tools like the number one the other reason is that quantum computers have a long long way to go before they realize their potential me Google quantum computer had mm-hmm via a plane is comparable to the hopes that people have for quantum computers it sounds like we've got a ways to go but there are two reasons why you should expect to have a quantum computer in your house in the next few years or probably in your lifetime one reason it's just showing you can turn this computer on and it works I think one way you can think about it is when the Wright brothers had their first famous flight and she's wonderful but she's also very picky she won't eat her kibble and all I wanNA do is to go into a pet store and get samples of all of the to run a web browser or play music in your house so that's one reason why a quantum computer in every house is probably not the future are investing a lot in quantum computing and why every time we see headlines about advances in quantum technology in China people get very nervous shins of a very powerful quantum computer there are few berry specialized types of problems that we think quantum computers arguable saw if these computers are not that useful for the average person why are we excited about this what actually are the practical application I'm sorry you're saying that quantum computers can break almost all encryption that sounds like a big deal it is a big deal and I think it's why national governments have awards it took that computer or would take computer nope say a minimum of two and a half days to do this calculation if goals quantum computer gets even that safeguard most secrets today so if a much more powerful quantum computer than the ones that we currently have access to because quantum computers have the potential to be in a sense the ultimate codebreakers and they would be able to instantly break the encryption systems they get big enough we expect they will be able to break virtually all of the codes encryption systems we use today so is that the types of problems quantum computers are well designed to solve are very specialized and those are not the kinds of problems you need to solve world right because the first flight by the Wright brothers Latte didn't last all that long at all it didn't last all that long at all but I guess you could imagine it demonstrated some kind of supremacy but that's all still mostly theoretical at this point there are other things quantum computers will be useful for the Internet safe but with a very powerful quantum computer
Episode 68: New Indictment Against Julian Assange, US Hospitals Can No Longer Keep Prices Secret, Honeywell Says They've Made The World's Most Powerful Quantum Computer
"Strange News. Daily is a production iheartmedia. In, a world, full of bizarre vents, unsolved mysteries and two billion stories from corners of the globe. Some news gets lost in the shuffle. This is your gateway to the stories on the fringe of the mainstream map. These are your dispatches in the dark I'm Ben Bullen and this is the strange news daily. Our, first story today. A. Federal Grand Jury has just returned it indictment against wikileaks founder Julian assange the indictment accuses him of working with hacking groups to target and publish sensitive information. The second superseding indictment alleges Julian assange recruited and intentionally worked with hackers from hacking groups like anonymous and lulls SEC to provide wikileaks with documents. Back! In twenty twelve assange provided the leader of LOSEC with a list of specific mail document, databases and PDF, targets for the group to hack. At least according to the development, the indictment adds that wikileaks leader published information obtained from a data breach of an American intelligence company by a hacker affiliated with LOSEC and anonymous. And this hacker said that assange had indirectly asked him to hack the company. The indictment specifically states quote to obtain information to release on the wikileaks website. Assange recruited sources and predicted the success of wikileaks impart upon the recruitment of sources to illegally circumvent legal safeguards on information, including classification restrictions and computer network restrictions. The Justice Department has said that this newest indictment does not add charges to the eighteen count indictment already filed against assange in May of twenty, two, thousand, nine hundred, but it does however broaden the scope of the conspiracy surrounding alleged computer intrusions with which assange was previously charged. That superseding indictment accused assange working with former army intelligence analyst Chelsea manning to obtain him publicly release hundreds of thousands of pages of classified information, including the names of US operatives. For a time Julian assange wasn't popping up in the news very often. He was holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London fighting extradition charges, however, now that assange has been removed from the embassy and incarcerated in the UK many say it's only a matter of time before he's ultimately extradited to the United, states. South. Our second story takes place in the United Sates and there's another legal ruling that may be confusing to some of our international listeners. You see hospitals in the US. No longer be able to use secret pricing list. Yes, it sounds confusing, but many patients in the US go to the doctor or a hospital with no idea how much a given treatment, procedure or associated equipment and services will cost. Recently federal judge has held up a policy by the trump administration that requires hospitals and health insurers to publish their negotiated prices for health services. These numbers are almost always kept secret. This policy is part of a larger push by the current administration to improve transparency and healthcare insurers and health providers usually negotiate deals and cost behind closed doors, which means that patients in this country rarely know how much something will cost until after the fact. Administration, officials say more price transparency will lead to lower and more predictable prices in the health industry. This is an important point. The health industry in the US is in arguably broken, and they're huge ranges in what insurers pay for services. For example, something as simple as a blood test can cost anywhere from around ten or eleven dollars to one thousand. For a more topical example how `Bout Corona virus test they can range anywhere from twenty seven dollars to two, thousand, three, hundred and fifteen. In, a lawsuit filed by the American Hospital Association, they argued the administration did not have the legal authority to require the publication of negotiated prices. They argued that the publication of these prices could have adverse effects. But this Tuesday the judge in the case one Carl Nichols disagreed. In his decision, he found the hospitals were attacking transparency measures generally and that they were doing so in a bid to limit patients insight into medical prices overall. In his statement, he writes. Hospitals may be affected by market changes at need to respond to a market where consumers are more empowered. That's not enough reason to make this rule unlawful. Nichols was appointed to the. Court last year he also rejected the hospitals other arguments that new rules we create overwhelming administrative burdens, and that increased transparency might actually drive up prices. He also added quote. Traditional economic analysis suggested to the agency that informed customers would put pressure on providers to lower costs and increase the quality of care. The effects of price transparency policies remain. Amongst health economists industry insiders policy walks. The current US administration argues that published prices we'll help empower individual patients as well as employers since employers buy health insurance for their workers, and that this can create market pressure to discourage overcharging or price gouging. But research on price, transparency has not shown any large scale effects. The research is still limited, but take for example a study of a New Hampshire Law that required published prices for common services. It showed the transparency led to very very modest price, reductions and research from other fields, including things as varied as Danish concrete or Chilean gasoline found that publishing negotiated. Prices can sometimes backfire markets where there aren't many competitors, so it will just lead to a reason prices. Nickel said that the evidence in the record is not definitive improving the transparency can lower prices, but that it was more persuasive than a old case study involving Danish. Ready mixed concrete contracts. Oh the shade there. This hospital rule is part of the administration's bid to control health costs through transparency. It's an effort that's become a health policy priority for the current president. The hospital rule was preceded by an executive order on price. Transparency in healthcare unveiled at a white. House event where patients spoke about their experiences was surprised medical bills. In most cases as you can imagine, these are not pleasant surprises. Alex as are the current secretary of Health and Human Services applauds the court's decision. Saying with today's win, we will continue delivering on the president's promise to give patients easy access to healthcare prices, especially when patients are seeking needed care during a public health emergency is more important than ever that they have ready access to the actual prices of healthcare services. The Hospital Association plans to appeal this decision. Melinda Hatton a senior vice president and General Counsel of the Association said the proposal does nothing to help. Patients understand their out of pocket costs. It also imposes significant burdens on hospitals at a time when resources are stretched thin. There was in this decision. no conversation about single payer healthcare. This price transparency rule is scheduled to go into effect in January of next year. Our third story today. You've probably heard of the company Honeywell despite its name. It's best known for making control systems for homes or businesses were planes. Recently they've claimed an additional accolades saying that the built the world's most powerful quantum computer. Other researchers are still skeptical about this claim, but for honeywell itself. This is a step toward integrating quantum computing into everyday operations. Honeywell measured its computers. Capabilities. Using an IBM crafted metric called quantum volume. Quantum volume takes into account, the number of Pontoon bits or hilariously called cubits. That every computer has, and it looks at the error rate of the computer. How long the system can spend calculating before the Cuban stop working and a couple of other crucial properties. Measuring quantum volume involves running about two hundred twenty different algorithms on a computer. Tony Ugly. The President of Honeywell Solutions says the Honeywell's quantum computer has a volume of sixty four. That's twice as high as the next quantum volume to be recorded, which was measured in an IBM quantum computer. Like other quantum computers, this one might eventually be useful for calculations that deal with gigantic amounts of data. Ugly says there are three classes of problems that we're focused on right now. Optimization machine, learning and chemistry material science we can do. Those problems shrunk down to a size that fits our quantum computer today, and then as we increase, the quantum volume will be able to do those problems at bigger scales. However, it's important to note this particular computer is not yet able to perform calculations that would give a classical computer trouble. That's a feat called quantum supremacy I claimed by Google October of last year. Google's Sycamore. Quantum computer used fifty three cubits to achieve quantum supremacy while. Machine so far only has six cubits, having the highest quantum volume may mean that honeywell's Cubans are remarkably accurate and can calculate for a long time, but it doesn't necessarily make it the most powerful quantum computer out there Scott Aaronson at the University of Texas at Austin tends to agree with this statement, saying quantum volume is not the worst measure, but what I personally care about much more than that or any other invented measure is what you can actually do with the device that's hard for classical computer to simulate he. He adds by the latter measure. The Honeywell devices not even close to the best out there. utley admits that Honeywell's device can't yet do anything that's impossible for classical computer, but he says this is an important step toward quantum computers that are practically useful. He sums it up with an appeal toward the future, saying any well as in a lot of industries that we know are going to be profoundly impacted by quantum computing to be able to eventually insert this technology into our own work. We need to prepare now. PRESCIENT or preposterous? It seems that's up to the future to tell. That's all for now. We've been asking you to Chime in with suggestions for stories. You think your fellow listeners might enjoy to hit us with your best worst dad jokes, and to let us know what's going on in your neck of the global woods. Tell us all about it Hashtag strange daily on twitter, or reach out to me directly I'm been bullying H.. W. On twitter or at Ben Bullen on instagram. Thanks as always to our super producer Dylan. Fagin our research associates Sam tea-garden most importantly. Thanks to you. I'm Ben Bullen. We'll see you tomorrow until then stay stage.
Quantum Supremacy, WTF?
"Hi this is an Ross. The host of resets and the reset team is currently on holiday. Break this year. I'm spending that time in New York City and I have time off so I'm probably gonNA spend a little bit of time playing video games hanging out with my wife and my dog Doug and making music on my new synthesizer with that in mind. We're running one of my favorite episodes of reset today. It's about quantum supremacy. This episode breaks down what that term means where quantum computing might be headed. And so if you didn't have an opportunity to listen to the episode the first time around now's your chance enjoy and happy holidays. Google has been cooking up something big in a study published published in the journal Nature last week the company announced that it reached something called quantum supremacy. Google says it is achieved the impossible quantum supremacy. Google says it's designed a computer that needs only two hundred seconds to solve a problem at the world's fastest supercomputer would need ten thousand years to figure out these Komo. Google says it's the first quantum computer to achieve supremacy of traditional computing as a quantum computer can perform a task. that a classical computer shooter couldn't do in any practical timeframe and that also is the extent of our understanding and by that I mean is it. Now why do we care about this. Well before you just say you know. Hey nerd what does this have to do with my life. Here's the really amazing thing about it. Google team has proven. It can work. This is the hollow moment for quantum quantum computing that many of us have been waiting for the term. Quantum supremacy. Sounds frankly ridiculous. It always makes me feel like electrons are gonNA take over the world but people have been waiting for this to happen for a long time. MM felt like for years. We've been waiting for an announcement of what people call quantum supremacy in. That's what Google announced this week. That's Kevin Hartnett. He's a senior writer for the math and Physics magazine. Quanta and the Google news got him fully earning out because what Google announced means that a special type of computer called quantum computer is finally doing things instead of just feeling like this. Almost mythical dream for decades. So Shit's getting real and we're gonNA tell you why on today's episode where explaining quantum computing and. Why two of the biggest tech companies Google and IBM are obsessed with it? I'm Jim Ross. This is reset mic. I promised I'd explain Google's quantum supremacy news but to do that I I have to make you eat your veggies by talking about physics but don't worry because I got you I am here for you and we're all GonNa do this together so Kevin. What's a quantum computer? A quantum computer is a machine that performs calculations using the laws of quantum physics as opposed to. I guess your classical computer like your phone or your desktop computer that behaves according to the laws of classical physics so a classical computer computes using bits and bits can be either one ores zero so like the foundation of code basically the exactly. It's that's what that's what code is now a quantum computer doesn't use bits uses quantum bits or cubits and these two bits are made out of quantum material and a cube. It can be in a position of one or zero or it can be described by the probability that it's in one or the probability that's in the positions zero so what is the advantage of that system. The advantage of that system is is you have these many different possible states. Your quantum computer could be in when you are working through your calculation and each of those estates has a probability assigned to it. That's the key a regular computer or what computing. Experts would call a classical computer like your laptop or your phone. Those computers can only try one possible pathway at a time to get an answer but a quantum computer can get to the right answer more efficiently. That's not Super Burger intuitive. So here's a thought experiment. Imagine a ball and a hill. Your task is to get that ball to land on a specific spot at the bottom of the hill. So imagine that you're at the beginning of the COMPU- computation. You are at the top of the hill. You're going to roll a ball down the hill and and can kind of go any number of ways down the hill and end up at any number of different spots at the bottom but there's only one spot that's correct so if you're if you have a classical computer the best you can do is kind of role that ball down the hill and see where Atlanta see if it's the correct answer or not so you're constantly running the ball up the hill and then you get to drop it once and then maybe you get the correct answer. If you don't you gotTa Roll it back up the hill and trial again. That's right. It's a lot of effort. It takes takes a lot of time but with a quantum computer. You have the ability to kind of Structure Your Ju- bits. So that the path the ball takes down. The hill is in some ways the the most likely path takes down. The Hill is the one that corresponds to the correct answer. Cancer at the bottom of the hill. So you can kind of tip the hill tip the scales in your favor in order to get to the correct answer a whole lot faster after. That's right a lot faster. That is the whole Shebang right there. A quantum computer should theoretically be able to get you an answer. A heck of a lot faster Mr than a classical computer when it comes to speed. Sometimes the newest flashiest mode of transportation isn't the most reliable. So you have to ask yourself. When does performing a calculation with a quantum computer become undeniably more efficient than doing the same thing with a classical computer that in a nutshell is the quest for quantum supremacy to quantum supremacy is a benchmark that was set about seven years ago in two thousand twelve by a physicist named John Fresco at California Institute of Technology Caltech and what quantum supremacy means is a quantum computer can do something something that no ordinary classical computer can match? What exactly does that mean? There's this idea that quantum computers should be able to perform calculations. It's much faster than regular computers but a lot of people doubted whether it was possible to actually achieve a calculation like that in practice so quantum supremacy is the moment a quantum computer actually performs a calculation. that a classical computer simply can't keep up with because if if you give classical computer enough time maybe even more time than we have left in the universe it can do anything. A quantum computer can do supremacy means a a quantum computer can do something in a categorically faster way. Then a classical computer can do it. The world's most powerful classical computer is it's called summit it's owned by. Am and it's as big as two basketball courts. Google's quantum computer on the other hand probably fits in your bedroom and it has a name to by the way. It's called Sycamore. So what Google did was. Give Sycamore a very specific problem to solve called a random circuit sampling problem. And what they showed is that their computer can solve this random circuit sampling problem in about two hundred seconds and the most powerful classical computer in the world which is called summit. Will Google estimated. It would take that computer ten thousand years to solve the same problem that computer solved in two hundred seconds. We will it. So what Google announced is that it basically dunked really really hard on. IBM's most powerful computer. The most powerful computer classical computer in the world it dunk tarred in the sense of this particular. The problem and you could say if children that that feels like a big deal isn't a big deal. It is a big deal. It's a big deal in a practical sense right. There are lots of things things we can do if they only take a couple minutes to carry out the calculation that we can't do if we need years or tens of thousands of years except that if you ask IBM IBM who'll didn't dunk as hard as it says it did. IBM is certainly skeptical. They issued a paper saying not so fast. They haven't actually done it because Google estimated in their paper that it would take a the most powerful ordinary computer ten thousand years to carry wow this calculation and IBM said actually most powerful computer which we designed can do this in two and a half days in probably even faster than that if we had time time to fine tune how we did it and I should also say that IBM themselves they are perhaps Google biggest competitor in the effort to build a a quantum computer so as IBM just a sore loser or is this a very good point that they're making well the point they're making is good and it does point to something important written about supremacy. which is you're trying to prove that a quantum computer can do something faster than any classical computer can so proving moving supremacy truly proving supremacy would involve proving? There's no way a classical computer can do this kind of problem as fast as a quantum a computer and we don't have that kind of proof here it took the most powerful classical computer in the history of the world a computer that occupies an area the size of two basketball courts. It took that computer or would take that computer. nope say a minimum of two and a half days to do this calculation. If Google's quantum computer gets gets even a little bigger if instead of fifty three cubits they have seventy cubits now a classical computer that fills two basketball courts won't be L. to keep up at all. You need a computer. The size of a city to simulate that same calculation and that's the sense in which the quantum computer is doing anything's categorically faster than classical computer. And I think that difference is really what people have in mind when they talk about quantum supremacy missy. And that's why most people are pretty comfortable saying that. What Google did if it fully checks out is in fact a demonstration of quantum supremacy so as IBM also so going to demonstrate supremacy anytime soon? IBM has been on the record for a while now that they are not chasing the goal of quantum supremacy. They view it as has an artificial bench. Mar- you could cross it and still not be doing anything useful so they at least in their public statements have been and much more practically minded so. This is a difference between Google being the kind of basketball player that wants to two straight up flip in the air before dunking and IBM. That just wants to do a layup because they know that it works. And it's the same amount of points I'd say so and it it seems like Google all has been more animated by the basic science of it and kind of the sense of possibility and exploration my man Kevin with the perfect segue so so we've established that Google's quantum computer is significantly faster than the most powerful classical computer in the world. But what exactly are the possibilities with this. This our personal quantum computers in our future. That's after the break so Kevin the computation. They Google perform to demonstrate quantum supremacy. Is it useful. It's it's not useful. In the sense of being practical this random circuit sampling problem really is very specialized almost tailor made for the purposes of demonstrating quantum supremacy. The engineers at Google compare it to the Hello World Program that the first apple computers ran Iran. And it's almost just showing you can turn this computer on and it works. I think one way you can think about. It is when the Wright brothers had their first I famous flight. It wasn't useful to anybody but they showed it's possible and that probably inspired lots of people to follow their lead and develop the very practical tickle air travel industry. We have today and I think the hope is that Google's demonstration of quantum supremacy will be similarly inspirational for the quantum computing world. Right because the first flight by the Wright brothers Latte didn't last all that long at all it didn't last all that long at all but I guess you could imagine it demonstrated traded some kind of supremacy over cars which can't even get off the ground. Is that what we're talking about is. Is it the difference between a plane and car in terms of of you know the sort of the gigantic leap in achievement. That they google says it. It has achieved. I think. That's a reasonable comparison. Certainly the places we hope we can go in the speed speed with which we can get to them via a plane is comparable to the hopes that people have for quantum computers. It sounds like we've got a ways to go l.. But can I expect that in my lifetime people will be walking around with phones that are actually super fast. Quantum computers unfortunately. No there are two reasons why you should expect to have a quantum computer in your house in the next few years or probably in your lifetime and one reason is that the types of problems quantum computers are well designed to solve are very specialized and those are not the kinds of problems. you need to solve to run a web browser or play music in your house. So that's one reason. Why a quantum computer in every house is probably really not a future? The other reason is that quantum computers have a long long way to go before they realized their potential. The Google Quantum Computer Peter had fifty three working cubits and it's taken years to get to that in order to do a lot of the most practically useful things we hope. Want whom Peters will do they will need thousands millions maybe even billions of Cubans Cubans so many more and any quantum computer has now and that day is probably a long long long way off. If these computers are not that useful for the average person why are we excited about this. What actually are are the practical applications very powerful quantum computer there are a few very specialized types of problems that we think quantum computers argument to solve very quickly and these are important problems? So one is that we expect quantum computers once they get big enough and it's still a long longtime away but once they get big enough we expect they will be able to break. Virtually all of the codes encryption systems. We use today so I'm sorry you're saying that quantum computers can break almost all encryption. That sounds like a big deal. It is a big deal. And I think it's why national Governments are investing a lot in quantum computing and why every time we see headlines about advances in quantum technology in China people get very nervous because quantum computers have the potential to be in a sense. The ultimate codebreakers and they would be able to instantly break the encryption Systems that safeguard most secrets today so if a much more powerful quantum computer than the ones that we currently only have access to could break encryption. I gotta ask. What does that mean for the Internet? It means the Internet would need a new way of encrypting in your data and people are working on that now. What we're saying here? Is that quantum computers if they get a lot more powerful are the Kim Kardashian of encryption though break the Internet. That's right we'll need a new internet. What Kevin is saying here? Is that quantum computers like Kim Kardashian Ashen should theoretically be able to break the Internet by breaking e common form of encryption called RSA encryption the idea behind that type of encryption. Kevin is that it's really hard to break down a large number into its prime factors and so if you base the key to unlocking your encryption on that principle you've you've got code that's hard to break one. That would take a regular computer something on the order of hundreds of years to figure out and so right. Now that's how we keep a lot of information on the Internet safe but with a very powerful quantum computer one. That's a lot more powerful than the ones we have now. The time it takes to break a large number down becomes really short and that means the key used to encrypt stuff is easy to figure out and the Internet is kind of screwed but that all still mostly theoretical. At this point there are other things quantum computers shooters will be useful for like drug discovery and financial modeling. But for most of that stuff to be truly worth it. You need quantum computers to get a lot more powerful. Well I think this is just the start of the development of an extremely exciting technology the idea that we can use quantum mechanics and particles like electrons transform computations to seems insane. It's insane because if we build a working quantum computer it demonstrates that we have achieved a kind of physical mastery three over matter in the universe at the most fundamental level. We're controlling it. We are manipulating it to our own ends and were performing calculations with it. That's kind of stunning ninety. And the fact that engineers are now actually pulling this off is kind of amazing This is reset. And I'm Ariel Jim. Ross you can follow me on twitter. I'm at eighty s and you can reach the reset team by emailing emailing us at reset at. Vox Dot Com. If you haven't already subscribe to the pod on spotify we'll be back on Thursday later nerds.
Episode 248 - Quantum technology and implications for security in todays computer infrastructure
"Welcome to the cybersecurity weekly podcast. I'm jay lewis podcasting from singapore today joining us today. We have a very special guests from switzerland who is based in zurich. And he's a doctor khumalo. Got the donnie. Who is the security researcher. We've could ask security so thank you very much for joining us today jane. I'm very happy to be here with you today. To be honest to it's quite difficult. Also for ricardian super announced. So don't worry about that. So so the first question. I think many of our listeners will be quite keen to know is is quantum computing a high. Because when you read the news and media nowadays we see a lot of investments that have been announced by governments for example the us national science foundation and the department of energy announced. I think with more than one billion over. The next five years in quantum information systems and russia and germany also not far behind announced close to seven to eight hundred million investment china as well spending time billion on the effort. In the private sector's google and ibm are also spending in excess of one hundred million and even bangs like j. p. Morgan is also looking at developing quantum lonzo banking but on data hen. Also some in saying that quantum states are not reliable stable or quite understood well enough to replace the traditional classical computers and some believe that they will never be able to do so. So my question to you is is quantum computing a hype well All these people you mentioned are very smart so if they spend all this money it must be true right now. Kidding apart we have seen tremendous tremendous advancements in this technology in the in the latest ears. So just put it into perspective. So people started discussing about quantum computing. Already more than fifty years ago but it became interesting. I would say nineteen ninety-four with the discovery your applications for cyber security now. At the beginning people were thinking. Okay this is something very interesting from a theoretical point of view. It will never be real. You know it's it's kind of Would be something like Science fiction like however then after that we have seen continues continues progress on the on the research and development and we especially in the last few years we have weakness a situation from you know we can be really controlled. One beat of quantum information to prototypes. That are actually working. So they are still prototype so they are still not powerful enough to tackle Real world problems. But i wouldn't call it to hype this point so from my personal point of view. The trend is quite clear. So you mentioned the difficulties. In controlling information and the related technology so from from a theoretical perspective the technologies well-understood now. There is engineering challenges into building. Something that is working but this is the case we any brand new technology. I mean justice I transistors. They were big bulky. They were barring city You remember the famous quotes like sixty four. Kilobytes of memory should be enough for an anyone. That's right so like every new technology. There is challenges. So what i see is that from a technological point of view the the tuition is progressing much more rapidly than many expected to ten years ago. Now the question. Everybody's asking his okay. But when are we going to have computers. That are not prototypes anymore. That are something that can solve real world problems My impression is that we are very close to the point but there is a difference in what you consider useful because a lot of people say like okay when we'll quantum computers break cryptography. Well i i think that's not a good measure of progress for quantum computer because quantum computers can do much more than that. I think one of the references that people point to when they say there's a challenge in making a quantum computer is also the cost of storing. The what you call. Photons the quantum bits at the temperature that will enable desk the ability to exploit that like to ask you. What is the quantum bit because we hear also a lot about that in the news like google talked about what was two years ago in two thousand and nine thousand nine hundred talked about fifty three cubits quantum computer to solve a problem in less than five minutes versus using today's supercomputer which would take more than ten thousand years and then. Ibm recently announced an wrote met to what what they call quantum supremacy with the quantum computer with more than one thousand cubans by two thousand and twenty three so building. This quantum computer with enough it seems to be a way to achieve some of the promises of quantum computing. So can you share with us. What is a cubit. What is quantum bit. And how is it different. From the current traditional binary that most of our listeners will be familiar with sure so a quantum beat is the elementary unit of quantum information. So i wanna to understand. Is the quantum mechanics porcelli that be friendly from the classical working of nature that we observe every day when we are talking about the one to be so the best way you have to imagine. This is like saying if you have a classical. Beat this is like a coin it can be heads or tails but if you have a quantum bit. This is more like a spinning coin. It's a coin that is spinning imitator. And it's not just heads or tail. It's undermined state. Andy can also spin across different taxes so a presenting this objects requires a little bit more of mathematical formulas from. Let's say nanna scale point of view. A quantum cuba three percents the over some various moral system so small that quantum effects come into play. This is. Let's say from the the the formal description now impact is how do you realize it When when we're talking about classical as they say he can be can be switched on and off. It can be the state of trans east of the moskva so realizing one to beat. The is a little bit trickier exactly. Because as i said only cease stems which are very small can be modeled as a quantum beats or cubits and also because at the same way that the spinning coin is very very delicate system. I mean you can. It's very difficult to keep a coin spinning in me day or forever right at the same way cubits are delegates. They don't last long so events will the coin will fall on the table and each will land and They are very sensitive to disturbance. This is one of the reasons. Why building cubits is so difficult and also expansive so as you mentioned there are different ways of realizing cubits physically. There are different competing technologies that are being studied right now and i would say it's a little bit early. Say we chuan of this competing technologies. We will eventually be successful. But for example the technology that both google and they be or using this accord the superconducting cubits as you mentioned they require isolating has more into a vacuum chamber at the very very low temperature. We are talking about the minus. Two hundred seventy three degrees celsius and manipulating this this circuit Using high-precision microwaves or lasers just the physical realization of the cubit is very very expensive for sure and thinking about how this cube it off. Spinning coin is to give this speed up in computation. So the way i think about it is this spinning coin because it can hold a lot more information than say a coin. It has only possible value of a head of pills but spinning coin can hold so martinez lee many information states and therefore that's where the speed up in computation power comes from. Is that the right way to think about. Advantage of quantum competing. Unfortunately not really. Okay these is. I give to see a very common misconception. So it is not as much as the amount of information that is stored on the spinning coin. It is more about the quality so this is a different kind of information at the end of the day from your spinning coin. You can only eventually after your computation is finished. You can only extract one beat of information. So eventually you're coin will land on a table and we will give you heads or tails however the difference. Is that before this happens so while the coin is still spinning me. There you can take to of this coins for example and make them interact in a way that steady coins that are already landed on the table can not interact and this is a little bit difficult to see within eligible spinning coin that is a macroscopic classical object but this is something to do with the concept of interference so which is typically. It's typical behavior wave systems. And this is what happens when you throw two rocks on a body of force on a lake and they create the reports and this report when they meet create interference patterns in some places the repos strengthen each other in some other places. Ripples cancel each other is something you cannot do with static coins however it turns out you can do with one spinning coins and this effect can be controlled and this is what quantum could quantum computers do quantum computers control this quantum effects at at the wave level and it can be control the to perform useful computation. So i would say the the best way to look at it as a classical computer works with black and white while a quantum computer can working full colour. So it's more the type of information that you're dealing with rather than the amount of information embedded in in the quantum state that makes the difference that's occurring up that with understanding and i also want to explore another potential misconception that we have from reading the popular press and culture as well so when we talk about quantum technology many people say oh you know the possibility of teleportation right so can you tell us more about this misconception that we may have about teleportation yeah thank you for bringing this up so teleportation is a concept in quantum mechanics. It has been started for decades. And there's also been proven experimentally so it's not just the it's something that exists however the name is terribly ill chosen say because when people think of teleportation they think of some star trek like effects right allows you to. It's not like that. So teleportation refers to the possibility of moving a quantum state from one place to another. Let's say cubit by only using classical beats for moving however this hides true very important details so the first the though is that in no way you can perform this Let's say teleportation faster than light so there must be some transmission of information for this teleportation to Which means that you know. Sometimes you read like a quantum mechanics. Violates einstein's general relativity because you can have this This extra distance which is instantaneous. That is not really the case. I mean it's it's a little bit more complicated than but in no case teleportation can buy your late. General relativity the other details that is hidden. Is that for a tip rotation to happen. Something has to happen before the two points where you are moving your state to and from. They must be entangled quantum system so it must be a special system that has been prepared beforehand and then split into two parts and the troopers moved at different places. So it's not something can happen if you don't set up your environment in a certain way. So this splitting is is that what people referred to as an tango and just different. Okay so entanglement is Is the is a property of quantum systems of being correlated related. Somehow in a special way that cannot be explained by looking at the elementary component of the system taken separately. So just to give you an example. If i have. If i have to beat if you have a number that is represented by two beats in theory this to beats is just you know both i can split and look at one. Beat and say okay. This is zero one and look at the other beat and say this beat just zero or one however for quantum systems. This is not always the case if you have a system which is composed of two cubits this cubits it's you know dancing in synchronous so when you sipa rate them they keep this synchronization and then what happens to one of the two cubits it also somehow influence the other one at distance so you are not really able to study the see stemming separation because the behavior of one of the components of the system will influence eastern painlessly the other component. Now the interesting thing is that this action. He's really instantaneous. It is not limited by the speed deflect and this is where a lot of misconceptions comes from because people say oh this really violate science general relativity but the reason why this is not true is that there is no way to use. This action also transmit information unless you also transmit classical information we cheese limited by the speed of light and therefore again Einstein's general relativity is is not related so entanglement is a is a complex Topic i would say but at the very core of it is like you have this systems that they cannot be explained by looking at their components they can only be claimed by looking at the system as a joint joint objects is this entanglement property also key to what many refer to ask quantum key distribution k. d. so at the very basic level like the simplest protocols for quantum distribution they do not really rely on entanglement one bution can be more easily explained by the analogy of the spinning coin of of a single spinning coin. So you are address sending to another party. You are sending a stream of spinning coins but this spending in different directions and all if you if the other party catches them in the right way they will be able to read the the right value from this coins. So the basic protocols for them distributions dune do not really exploit entanglement however there is other protocols that build on entanglements to perform quantum distribution with interesting. They're interesting additional teacher. For example in device independent quantum distribution you can perform want them keep distribution between two parties without really having to trust the device that is allowing you to communicate so these exploits entanglement while we are on the topic of key distribution and implications for security. So i like to ask you. We also hear about other implications in compton technology that would have potential impacts on our current infrastructure when it comes to security so for example. I'll public private key infrastructure right. So which is. I think you mentioned drovers shore's algorithm that could potentially break it and also implications for crypto currency as well because they do use a lot of these establish classical security protocols yes so i feel like i should mention something before addressing your question in what they need to address. Is that very often. People are mostly interested by quantum computers for implementation in security right. But what they want to stress. Is that quantum computer. Save a lot of other applications that are related to cryptography and most importantly that will probably be realized before. Computers are able to break cryptography because some locations are easier to achieve okay but once i mentioned this Let me address your question. I should explain a little bit. How this public and private key. Cryptography works not from the technological point of view but the main the main concept of cryptography is based on the deficiency of an adversary you with a powerful computer in breaking the security of your scheme right and most of the schemes that we use nowadays especially in particular the public in public key cryptography scheme. They base their on mathematical problems. So there is detailed mathematical constructions that say as long as this particular mathematical problem is difficult to solve then. A- our cryptographic schemes secure in the sense that no other sorry not even keep the with a super powerful computer can break the scheme because breaking the scheme would be equivalent to breaking the mathematical problem. Now we base the security of our schemes on mathematical problems that have been started saying centuries in some cases and nobody has formed a smart way to solve them. So we say okay. This games are secure or we believe that they are secure because of this now. Enter quantum computers. The problem is that in. Nineteen ninety. Four was the first time that Peter shore pointed out to a very smart way of exploiting one phenomena so want them computer to solve one of this problems that has been hard for centuries integer factories asian. Andy somehow opened the ponderous books. Because then people say okay with a say if we base the security. If i were cryptography on problems that are believed to be hard but now we have quantum computers and they can solve this programs. All righty is broken. So this is a little bit the discussion that has been happening in the last twenty years or more especially considering that to systems that are widely used nowadays like you mentioned for example bitcoin. Bitcoin is heavily relying on corporate graffiti. But i'm also talking about are assayed luxury and most worryingly there have been presented. Those recent attacks against symmetric pornography that was previously believed to be almost immune to quantum computers. All the systems are vulnerable. Ones large enough quantum computer build. So if you don't consider quantum computers these systems are designed to remain secure even if few double the power of the most powerful computer in the war Every year they are still believed to remain secure for many years. want them. Computers changed the situation. And so on one side. We have to look for replacements and in the sense of well if ariza's or elliptical broken. What do we use. How do we deal were secure infrastructure on the other hand eat also short to medium term implications because for example. Something not. everybody knows. Is that elliptic curve. Cryptography that is widely used in bitcoin. If even more vulnerable than schemes like rsa or discrete logarithms to quantum computers. So in other words. Bitcoin is probably going to be before. Rsa encryption so it's it's really time to search for alternatives and in this respect there is an ongoing an ongoing process for selecting the next generation. One tumor assist on cryptographic schemes. So does this what the national institute of standards and technology has just recently announced about three four years ago. isn't it. they announced technica competition right. So this is searching for as you pointed out earlier. A lot of these Cryptography that powers. The security in our computer systems today is a relying on centuries of mathematics mathematical schemes. That have been proven to be very very difficult to break so now we are onto the next stage thirteen for the next century of difficult mathematical schemes. Correct so what what people are doing trying to prevent. The threat of quantum computing is to be proactive. And to say okay. Even if we don't have today quantum computer powerful enough to threaten this kind of cryptography. We know that eventually if they keep growing impa where they will be able to break it. So let's let's try to search for alternatives and what people are doing is to look at different mathematical problems that they have been started in in some cases for quite a long time but in general they're little bit more recent than traditional problems however they are so hard that they are believed to be unbreakable even by quantum computers. And now looking at this problem researchers are asking. Can we be creek. Dogar affi exploiting the hardness of this problems. It turns out that there are ways to be of this new cryptographic schemes. That are quantum raced on or somebody calls them post quantum. I personally don't like the term because they find it a little bit misleading. I can go more in detail later if you want but Quantum system schemes are basically cryptographic schemes. That are based on quantum heart problems now between the theory and the practice. There is a gap because one thing is to say okay. We have this mathematical problem. That is hard to solve even for quantum computers and other thing is to say okay using this problem. I want to be a cryptographic scheme that i can use my smartphone. For example these is where the niece competition that you mentioned is is playing a leading role nowadays because what they are saying is okay. Let's open the race. Everybody can submit their proposal for practical and secure quantum resistant encryption schemes and signature schemes. And then there's going to an open selection where we get Researchers from all around the war involved. And it's gonna be a last man standing race at the end where when somebody finds a way to a tech other schemes the schemes are discarded and at the end only the best schemes are gonna be left in the standardization process. And this is happening right now and it's scheduled to happen to finish in two or three years probably so our presumed that given the harshness of these up a potential scheme the cost of securing opie higher than what we have right now. So what i'm saying. Is that if we were to implement such scheme on. I'll say mobile phone. I'll probably have to be more powerful than it is today to handle such an advanced form of talk affi. He many cases this is correct so did difficulty in designing quantum resistant cryptographic schemes. Is that unlike traditional cryptography. There is no one size. Fits for all solution traditionally. You can say okay. We use elliptic curves because they are better than our rsa for example and that's it however in the realm of quantum resistant cryptography. There is very different schemes. Each of them with different properties. Some of them are faster however maybe they require huge keys. Other schemes are more secure but are much slower. Some other schemes are very compacting signatures for example but the key generation is super slow. This is one of the reasons why nobody really expects that at the end of the competition. There's gonna be one winner. Probably going to be a suit of Of candidates of winners each of them with different properties so every application. We'll probably require a different scheme because for example. If you're if you're running something on a smartphone you cannot afford a scheme. That requires a lot of computational power to work you will have to reach some tradeoff with Either security or with bandwidth. So these are gonna be important implementations considerations that it's also part of our work to advice customers and companies on how to build their technology using this increase games legal that outside of content security angry takefuji and because earlier. You also mentioned a lot of other applications. That would be easier. A more practical to with quantum -nology outside of security right so one that i would like to explore is something that people refer to as quantum money because this is something that many of the listeners appreciate aside from bitcoin because there's a financial implications so what is quantum money. It's a very interesting application. I think but it's not really unrelated to cryptography because actually many proposed quantum money schemes. Also use some form of cryptography as a. Let's say an ingredient in order to work. However let's i explain what one to money's quantum money is a proposal for achieving exchange of tokens by maintaining the same security. That you would expect from a thirty shnell cash scheme so why why was be going successful because bitcoin so little beat the problem of. How do i send money to someone else without relying on central bank and without the risk of somebody copying my money and so doing the so-called double spending okay. Bitcoin solves this problem with the use of blockchain. So you have to be a network. You have to spend an auditory to mind blocks on one to money solves the problem in a different way in quantum money scheme you have a bank and the bank issues bank but this bank notes are actually quantum states. These are spinning coin thing at the same time. The bank issues public verification key and this public is classical and You can download it. You can read it on a bulletin board. Everybody knows the public know. If you have a quantum money token it means that you are holding a quantum state you can verify that this quantum state is fantastic by using the public key of the bank. There is a verification procedure that does not destroy the quantum state but using the public key can tell you yes. This coin is authentic. It was signed by bank or no and once you have the can you can send it to someone else if you want to spend money for example you can send this one token using gonna appropriate quantum communication channel. And this way you can transmit the token to the receiving part the court proper here is that one of the consequences of the laws of quantum mechanics and in particular the consequence entanglement actually is that there is no physical way to copy an arbitrary quantum state so if you have the spinning coin dare you can never create a one to one copy of this coin that this spending in the same way in the same direction. This is quite intuitive right. Even even from classic or point of view you would have to catch the coins to stop it there. Make a moral copied but then you know anymore how it was spending beforehand so this is the typical dilemma of mechanics. Observing is disturbing in order to copy of one state. You have to observe it but if you observe it you are disturbing the state and you cannot make a reliable copy. One to money exploited this effect to make it impossible to copy secret information. However one thing i want to mention is that this is a very active area free search and infect recently improvements on this approach have been proposed and These are improvements. Where even if you're token is quantum state and you need a quantum computer to to to use the scheme that transmission if you want to spend money for example can be only classical and this is quite quite interesting because it means that you can rely on a much much simpler infrastructure even if one is to stress these kinds of cryptographic schemes that fall in the broader category of one. Cryptography only be used if you have a quantum computer. Sorry a side note very often people. Call quantum cryptography quantum key distribution. They are not the same. Quantum distribution is one particular. Subset of quantum cryptography. Exactly the way as one to money is one particular sub quantum cryptography so you talk about quantum computer that is required in quantum money. So what would be the hardware requirements in quantum computer. How would it be different. And i know he's a bit copy where we right. This is difficult to answer. Because as i said these technology that's being on they're very active research so one thing that maybe is important to stress. Is that nobody really expects that. Quantum computers are going to a replace completely classical computers. So what people imagine is that quantum computers will have a more prominent role in aiding classical computers to perform some computation. So you can imagine like nowadays. We have us for example so graphic processing units that are specialized hardware that we plugging into our computer super form some specific tasks then one day. We might have use quantum processing units so something that you attach to your normal computers to perform some quantum task. Or at least this is this. Is i imagine now it. It could be as that in the future. Quantum computers gonna replace everything but a more likely scenario is that they are gonna leave next to a classical infrastructure and say in this respect the hardware requirements really depend on the technology that is used to the quantum computer and this can be very different as we mentioned. The prototypes used by becoming like google. And ibm they require basically a huge super cold freezer and a very complicated microwave guiding see stem to manipulate the data however there is other proposals that us lie or they use ion traps or other technological other other engineering tricks eight is very very early to say how quantum computer will look even even five years from now. Probably because this. This is something that is so it's evolving so fast that it's very difficult to make predictions. Yeah i think the technology is certainly very exciting. And i think for many of our for for many of us certainly machination when it comes to content. Knowledge is go gripped by the headlines. Such as the possibility of teleportation although you the point is not quite like the way they portrayed in star trek. Thank you for your time today tomorrow. The dismount some of the popular meat. And i look forward to our next conversation. And when there's another big breakthrough definitely state you.
79: The Universe is Expanding More Rapidly Than Predicted
"This is space time series. Twenty two episode seventy nine for broadcast on the thirtieth walked over two thousand nineteen coming up on space time that universe expanding expanding more rapidly than predicted solving one of planet Earth's greatest who done it and a vital test for the world's largest telescope project all that and more coming up on space time. Welcome to space time. We'd stupid Gary. New Observations suggest the universe is expanding formal rapidly than current models are predicting the findings. He's reported in the monthly notices. The Western society comes on the heels of hot debate over. Just how fast. The Universe is expanding with measurements using different models. Coming coming up with different numbers the new data by the shop holy cow collaboration is based on a different method of measuring the Hubble constant the actual expansion read of the universe us. The team used as space telescope in combination with a KEG observatories adaptive optics system to observe three gravitationally. lensed systems the first time. Ground based adaptive optics technologies being used to try and obtain the Hubble constant one of the study's authors Professor Chris Fast from the University of California Davis says when he first started and working on this problem more than twenty years ago the available instrumentation limited the amount of useful data that could be achieved at the observations that he felt adding adaptive optics for the first US time into the full analysis could contribute a lot to the observations. Okay so what is. This thing called adaptive optics will start twinkle because distortions Russians caused by atmospheric turbulence different temperatures as different altitudes. Now waddell. That might be great for romance. It's not that. Good for astronomy. Adaptive Steve Optics employs lasers to create an artificial guide star at high altitudes which can then be used as a reference source to compute the amount of turbulence in the atmosphere by the telescope. Entry Trigger actuated is on the telescope's primary mirror that stole the mirror to compensate for that turbulence using the cake observatories adaptive optics system with the near infrared cameras second-generation generation instrument on the cake to telescope atop Monaco in Hawaii the authors had chained local measurements of three well-known Lind's QUASAR systems. PG fifteen plus plus zero eight zero eight zero four thirty five minus twelve twenty three and Rx j eleven thirty one minus twelve thirty one. Quasars are extremely bright Active galaxies with massive jets powered by feeding supermassive black holes though. Quasars are often extremely far away astronomers are able to detect amusing things like gravitation lenzing phenomenon. That acts like a magnifying glass. When it sufficiently massive galaxy close to the earth gets in the way of life from a more distant objects objects say Quasar that intervening galaxy can act as a gravitational lens? It's gravity field literally warped space time thereby bending the background quasars light at audible images making it look extra bride at times. They brought us to the background. Quake at flickers that's because h image corresponds to a slightly different path link from on the quayside to the telescope said the flick appeared slightly different times for kimmage because they arrive at the same time so the office mission these time delays which inversely is proportional to the value of the Hubble constant. It's allows astronomers that code light from these distant quasars gathering information about how much the universe is expanded during the time. It's taken the light to travel from. Its origin the Quasar all the way to the earth based on their ratings new authors arrived at an estimate for the hobbled constant of seventy six point eight kilometers kilometers. Per second per mega PASOK. oposite a bit of a three light years which equates just over thirty trillion kilometres and mega is a million pound six so seventy six point eight kilometers per second pay make a pound sick. That's the rate at which the universe is expanding according to these authors calculations of the Hubble constant but in in two thousand seventeen the holy cow team published another estimate for the Hubble constant of seventy one point nine kilometers per second per mega pasic said we have a bit of a discrepancy. They the new shop. Holy cow estimates are comparable to that by a team led by Adam race from Johns Hopkins University which found the Hubble constant to be at seventy four point zero three kilometers per the second pen Mega Pacific using measurements from the city of nearby variables thighs known as syfy at these readings differs somewhat from each other. They're all reasonably close. Goes together by comparison. The very different from estimates of hobbled constant from an entirely different technique based on distant observations of what's known as the cosmic microwave background background radiation. It's the lift of radiation from the Big Bang when the universe began thirty point. Eight two billion years ago now. That method was hobbled constant reading of sixty seven point. Four kilometers per second Pentagon passaic achieving the standard cosmological model of the universe is correct. Meanwhile another estimate this one by Windy Friedman Friedman and colleagues from the University of Chicago did come close to bridging the gap with Habacon sixty nine point eight kilometers per sick and make a pass based on the luminosity of distant red giant giant stars and supernovae the new shop holy cow team results add to the growing evidence. There must be some sort of a problem with the standard model of cosmology. which has that? The universe was expanding expanding very fast in its early history. That expansion then slowed down to the gravitational pull of mysterious substance code matter and now the expansion spitting up a gain g to another mystery. A force called dark energy and there in lies the crisis in cosmology well. The Hubble constant is constant everywhere in space at a given time. It's not constant in time. So when comparing hobbled constants that have come out of various different techniques scientists say comparing the early universe using distant observations with with more recent parts of the universe using local knee by observations. This suggests that there's either a problem. The cosmic microwave background radiation measurements. which team says he's unlikely? All the standard model of cosmology needs to be changed in some way using your physics to correct the discrepancy. You're listening to space-time still the astronomers in engineers completed test run determine whether today's technology can cope with the enormous amounts of data expected be streaming from the world's largest telescope wants spilt the square kilometer array and later on the science report we know roughly when humans hammers sapiens began. Now we may also know exactly where they it began mainly in Africa. I mean the exact part of Africa the first sapiens evolved in all that and most of the come on space time. Well it's one of the great who done it in Planetary Science. which isn't it what killed the dinosaurs wasn't an asteroid impact or was it? vocalism was a combination of the two. Well a new study is confirmed. Wait for it. It was an asteroid impact rather than Vulcan ISM which triggered the mass extinction event. Sixty six million years ago that wiped out seventy five percent of all life on earth including all the non on avian dinosaurs. The findings reported in the Journal of the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences speaks against the hypothesis that ecosystems were already under pressure from increasing Volkan ISM causing a gradual deterioration environmental conditions in the period leading up to the celestial collision. The findings are based on fossil remains of tiny the algae which not only providing information about the end of the dinosaurs but also show how the oceans recovered after that fatal asteroid impact the Kate. -Til Cretaceous Tertiary Boundary Event which these often referred to as the K.. PG or Cretaceous palliate gene extinction event occurred sixty six million years ago when a ten to fifteen eighteen kilometer. Wide asteroid slammed into a shallow off the coast of what he's now the Gulf of Mexico. Says you can't peninsula then impact released as much energy as one hundred territories ends of TNT more than a billion times. The energy of the Russia Mirror Nagasaki atomic bombs used to end World War Two the collision triggered one of the largest mass extinction thinks events in the history of planet earth initially impact created the wondering eighty kilometer wide chick salute crater throwing Malta Jecklin debris high into the atmosphere and triggering during a massive cinema. Hundreds of Mehta's high together with devastating earthquakes. Some sir powerful they called Lance enemies and it triggered volcanic eruptions which shook the entire Planet Planet shockwaves from the collision sick with the entire planet causing it to literally ring. While burning debris from the impact EJECTA began raining back down to the surface fisk causing any tense pulse of infrared radiation which will quite literally began cooking any life exposed to it and combined with a modern lava flowing from volcanic eruptions despite doc global wildfires which devastated vast areas of the planet surface Bernie out vegetation and killing any animal from the surface that survive the initial blast wave was still the asteroid impacted the planet at a location rich in sulfur containing gypsum which was instantly vaporized and dispersed as an aerosol into the atmosphere atmosphere only to rain back down highly caustic acid rain burning anything attached and causing long-term effects on the climate and food chain smoke Nash from the wildfires in volcanic eruptions together with dust from the ejected debris initially created a blanket light greenhouse effect preventing hate from below from escaping into space and causing surface temperatures sought eventually Manso years temperatures cooled as the smoke ash dust ejected debris high in the atmosphere blocked out sunlight right creating an impact winter that caused temperatures to plummet. Now some around the same time messy volcanic eruptions what. He's now India. That is the Dick entraps flood basalt began flowing across the subcontinent popping out more toxic gas pollution to the atmosphere further contributing to the growing impact winter evidence for the Global Nature for this asteroid. Impact event can be seen around the entire planet in the form of dot boundary line in the geological record nine. It's the K- t- boundary-line. This ashli contains pains high levels of the metal rhythm which is rare Earth's crust but abandoned asteroids one of the new studies authors Michael Heenan from the GMC German Research Centre for Geosciences says the new data shows there was a sudden impact that led to massive ocean acidification not a gradual build up and that means the asteroid impact did it. The oath is reach that conclusion. After reconstructing the environmental conditions of the ocean using Fussell's from deep sea drill core samples and from rocks that formed at the time they I studied isotopes of the element. Boron in the shells of plankton now importantly before the impact event they couldn't detect any increasing acidification the oceans and yet right after the impact the actions became so sick that organisms that made their shows from calcium carbonate couldn't survive because this is life forms in the delays. The ocean became extinct stink carbon uptake but photosynthesis in the oceans was reduced by half. This state lasted for tens of thousands of years before algae containing calcium carbonate ebonite began spreading again however it took several million years before the foreigner and Flora recovered and the carbon cycle had reached the new equilibrium. The researches found the size of data for this during an excursion in the Netherlands where an especially thick layer of rock right on the Cretaceous pedagogy boundary is preserved in a cave it seems array of especially thick layer of clay from the aftermath of the impact accumulated in the cave in most settings sediments accumulate so slowly that such a rapid event like like an asteroid impact is hot to resolve the rock record but because Matt Sediment was lay down there at once admit the author able to extract enough fussell's to analyze and were able to capture the transition providing hot evidence that the asteroid did it. You're listening to space time still to come how to live off the land on the moon and and we look at some of the new nominations for the strain skeptics bent spoon award. If you'd like to help support support space time and get access to the weekly double episode commercial free versions of the show. Come enjoy our patriot. Family at any cost a few dollars a month helps keep the show going and and we offer heaps of rewards this bonus audio content and an invitation to join our special Piccione facebook group. We income and Chat Scott's the show. Ask questions whatever you want with like-minded listeners. And members of the Space Time team get all the details at Patriot dot com slash space time with Stewart Gary now. That's Patriots Book. Pat R. A. O. N. PATRIOT DOT COM slash. Space Time with Stewart. Gary details are also in the show notes or just click on the orange button on our website and thank thank you to all our Patriot on listeners. Big As your generosity really does hope the support I show Astronomers and engineers have completed a special test run to determine if today's technology can cope with the enormous amounts of data expected be streaming. Once the world's largest telescope the square kilometer array or S K is up and running scientists from the International Center for Radio Astronomy Research in Perth. The Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee Tennessee and the Shanghai Astronomical Observatory use the world's most powerful supercomputer summit at the US Department of Energy's Oakridge facility the process simulated observations nations of the early universe ahead of the giant telescopes being built in with an Australia and South Africa summit is so powerful it can perform two hundred thousand trillion calculations the second scientists data pipelines processing some four hundred gigabytes of data per second equivalent to more than sixteen hundred hours of standard definition youtube videos every second the director of data intensive astronomy at the International Center for Radio Astronomy Research Professor. Andreas basic says. It's the first time radio astronomy. Data's being impressionist on this scale. He says until now Esto them as really had no idea if they could take an algorithm designed for processing data coming from today's radio telescopes and apply flight. The something a thousand times bigger completing the tests successfully till scientists that they will be able to deal with the data deluge generated by the SA when it comes online in the next decade construction the K.. As expected to begin in twenty twenty one but the fact that they needed the world's biggest super computer run this successfully chance that the case as needs at the very edge of what today should be computers capable of delivering. The Billion Dollar S. K. A. is one of the world's largest science projects. It's the top with a certain supercollider the International Space Station in fact the low frequency pattern telescope alone is said to have more than one hundred. Thirty thousand and ten is in the project's initial phase days and that'll generate around five hundred fifty gigabytes of data every Second Ridge National Laboratory software engineer researcher Dr Ren and Wang a former international center for Radio Radio Astronomy Research. PhD Student says the huge volumes of data used for the Test Rom. The data had to be generated on the machine itself so scientists use the sophisticated software simulator written by researchers at the University of Oxford and gave it a cosmological model and the array configuration of the telescope so it could generate data as if it was coming from the telescope. Scott observing the sky. Usually the simulation runs on any single computer generating just a fraction of what the ESCA would produce. So that used another piece of software this this one written by the International Center for Radio. Research called the dead or activate of flow. GREFE engine or deluge to distribute one of these simulations to each of the twenty seven thousand six hundred in forty-eight graphics processing units that make up summit they also use the adaptable AIA system developed by the National Laboratory to result the bottleneck of trying the process so much data. At one time the tests run used was a cosmological simulation of the early universe at a time that as the epoch of realization in the first stars thousand galaxies form that the game visible with an x as the data. was I average down to a size thirty six times smaller and was then used to produce an image cube of the kind that can be analyzed by strenuous astronomers. He says finally the image keep was sent to Perth simulating the complete data flow from the telescope to the uses. Thank you plan to do attest. Tested spread some time ago already to do at scale And at scale means we wanted to be able to produce they had is it would be produced by the telescope. nope obviously the telescope doesn't exist so we have to do simulations and simulations have to be run on a fairly big computers because what the telescope would be producing thing is a very large data sets. Mafia summit came in exactly. That's summit came in actually tried to do that. Previously on the Chinese should computers well and we never went to that scale but pretty far as well at the time or the a couple of years back and then in the meantime of course is developed quite a bit and we did a lot of work on it and then try to destroy even more and then some came along and we had the opportunity to use that machine to to one of my students going over there to which computers located and giving us the opportunity in terms of ferric discretionary time in this case this was a Helluva simulation something like what four hundred gigabytes of data per second equivalent of sixteen hundred hours of standard diff youtube videos lot of cat videos and yeah. That's a lot lot of leaders. Yes what are you guys actually retesting the hotline at Sofa. Watch so we still in what's called preconstruction. State frequent star structure means that none of the final systems have been defined find directly and only after that so we. We are still before what's called construction book being released and that will then finally also define how the hardware looks like even how the intense look like in in detail and only then we start going out for ten the for the for the construction phase. So that's hopefully going to start middle of like CEO so but still quite some time to go so what beef tried to do. There is well as you're saying essentially trying to figure out what we can actually handled handled data when it comes out of the of the raped or that's both software is but also hardware wise We are not too much involved into hardware testing such So so all main goal is to see you. How office going how we can distribute the load onto many many computers like four thousand nine hundred and eight or or something like that on on summit So we are trying to make sure that we connect handle all that loud and have the facilities in terms of software to to have Smallest possible overhead to just to manage that kind of distribution so that one that's one part on the capturing site but then on the What we call imaging sites we take the data which is producing and produce essentially a niche out of that again that's more mic side and we have some issues issue is to get that scaling and trying to trust them for the time being not quite get there So the injured side side is finding imagining site is still a challenge but but we still have a few years so we are quite confident that we can reach that as well guys must be really keeping your fingers crossed that Moore's law works. Oh Yeah so thankfully quite interesting. Because let's see is case such as a as a project was based on on essentially Moore's law being Various still because was plant like fifteen years years ago. It was clear we couldn't build it because we can process data and then people said okay. Well we have Moore's law here. How does that fit in terms of time line and around around now when you look at most laws like fifteen years ago it would fit possibility to to be able to to build something like this so we all just on top of this and actually if you look in the early planning documents for their scare you will see Moore's law featuring there anyway? Have you kept up with the claims by Google regarding it. Sycamore a quantum computer and well. That's kind of doing yes So we actually to look into that but there only a few algorithms which would be potentially potentially even to run out on such a platform and of course they don't exist yet so it's it's quite a fatalistic thing and the dancing will go go close to that any uh anyway soon but welby is definitely keep an eye on that and see whether we can make us if it's coming up along we don't know I mean for the time being doesn't look like but may imitrex from now that could be and the of course there's a very long term project fifty s lifetime projected so within those fifty years a lot can can happen and then we may have a quantum computer doing that stuff that could well be. What's the current plan is being looked at for the S K? Will it just be one computer in Manchester or somewhere will be to supercomputers one in Perth one in Somewhere in South Africa. What's the current plant The plan is to have One for Buick burst. That's where I'm sitting and another one in Cape Town has out. There are dedicated to the data flow from the respective instruments and Mid Telescope in South Asoka and the low frequency telescope Western Australia. And so there's a dedicated network for both of them. In in both cases quite similar the distance about seven hundred eight hundred kilometers fiber dedicated fiber connections and the first stage of the process. Singles will happen essentially of real imaging aging processing and that kind of stuff and they will be distributed around the world to the scientists to do the post processing and one major part might be mentioned but maybe somewhere else in Europe as well the biggest computers in the world when they built no. So what we what we are requiring there is about the biggest computer right now And that's still assuming that we are able to kind of ten percent overall efficiency so we have always that margin because efficiencies quite An issue to make everything efficient from the gathering of the data to the output to final storage and get to ten percent is quite a challenge. So right now we we'd have to buy the biggest computer but Within five six years of construction we will have a quite of kind of modest computer that point in time so it looks quite. He's a bull in terms of money as well. This is space time. I'm Stewart Gary Space experts from all of the wood of met in the European municipality of Luxembourg for Special Conference and utilizing space resources to explore the solar system getting fuel oxygen and war up into space from Earth remains the most expensive part of any mission so being developed these resources in space would make space travel found for more accessible among the advances discussed at the Luxembourg conference when you take knowledge is to extract water from lunar soil return to Earth by the Apollo astronauts. Hannah Hannah Sergeant. From Lennon's Open University presented Ho woke on hitting the oxygen in the lunar regular to a thousand degrees Celsius with hydrogen in order to create water. Now having proven this is possible on earth development has started on an instrument to be part of Ace's prospect drill that will eventually fly on the roscosmos Luna twenty-seven mission to the southern polar region of the the moon if robots are astronauts could mind for water on the moon that could use it to create fuel and oxygen for rockets and life support prospect will carry a drill and sample sample analysis package designed to bow down under the lunar surface the debts of over mater in minus one hundred degrees Celsius temperatures searching for water. I sent out. The Chemicals. Prospects affects miniature laboratory for Prosper will analyze the soil samples. Retrieve bother drill. The data will help unearth details about the history. It also helps determine if future explorers could use lunar resources on their missions them set up luna basis the Luda South poles of great interest to lunar researchers and explorers because the low angle of the sun of Horizon Reisen leads to areas especially in deep craters which leads to be passionately or completely and shadow the shadowed areas in penalty dot crater floors with a sunlight never reaches as opposed to hide. Water is and other frozen substances to better understand the natural prices that for us to produce sources such as oxygen and propellant. Meanwhile all another research at Beth Lomax from the University of Glasgow showed. How a method code molten salt electrolysis could be used to learn a regular into a mixture of metal alloys while extracting oxygen the oxygen and the metal could then be used in future by settlers on the moon so the conference is shown how the next era of space exploration won't require agencies to launch? Everything they need from Earth but instead they can use elements already on the planets and moons being explored to make what they need this report from. ACT LISA TV. Prospects is really one of the stepping stones between the early robotic phase that we're seeing now and the future where human Activity on the lunar surface may make use of Luna resources in order to have a sustainable presence on the lunar surface if he land anywhere. We're on the moon. You can extract oxygen if you land at the polls it may be a little easier because you can get to water and other volatile. That might be there. So volatile are things that can and be very mobile so they can sublime into vacuum but obviously there of interest to us because we can breathe and drake them so walter ice for example as though to be abundant that they're doing a pillow reasons so prospect is a combination of a drill link sample analysis package the drill will drill down to depths of up up to one meter below the surface. So it's not the first time that drilling has been employed on the moon but it's the first time that I will have been done in these polar regions we. We are now going to test the first model that have been built. We are going to ask it so to see if the works. All the instruments and mechanisms his works perfectly and we are going to perform some drilling tests than sampling coreygaines simply to the sampling system. We collect the A tool samples while after failing one sample is collected. Ah using a dedicated macanese. That is that allows stew collect the sample and close the Chamber after the collection. So we keep the sample within a dedicated chamber for the Russian sample and then we perform the same operation with European For the European instruments. We don't know exactly. How much water is we might find? So in the tests will doing some The dry which have no voice in for others we inject a little bit of water. And then we'll we range up to saturated reckless which has a very high fraction Walter in the subsurface one of the tasks that on which I am more couriers of the tasked with a six percent of what our content so so we will await the percentage of the water. We will mix like ice cream making you. And then we will froze the simone down to the minus went underground fifty under lunar vacuum when you have a an icy material as soon as you expose it to higher temperatures immediately sublimate into the vacuum so it doesn't go through a melting point it just disappears into gaseous form. And you've lost your sample. The point is during the drilling you are producing. Hit to the mechanic attrition of the trail tip and lunar soil this is unavoidable. So what we are doing is to balance the power injected controlling the rotation of the Corey and rotation speed of the drill in order not to go too fast and so not to produce much hit. The prosper is the European instrument that that is part of prospector. It will be based on miniaturized oven which will receive the samples from the drill? It will seal the heavens and and It will perform the measurement off the contents prospect contains a smaller Karu Phil and with a disk on which twenty-five offense on mounted we started Many years ago goal in studying coloring thrilling systems Actually I drill that went to space was was the Rosetta drill for the commission. Prosperity has a great heritage from trauma. Rosetta from the Caserta point of view. Because that is the task of real that is the task for collect the sample and to the little the same tate today instrument and the NC two observational for the materia. Our objective is not just a fly. The single L. prospect payload but also to put you in a position where we can also work on the topic of resources in the context of other payloads and really to develop Philip the expertise of the community in this area which is already happening today from an expiration points of view it has the potential to change the moon from a a thing that we see in the sky to place that we can go by understanding how we can use the resources that are there then opens the door for other people to potentially exploited its resources. We really hope to go to noon very soon. And few years from now so this is really exciting and it has just become my hope is that with missions like prospects and the missions. We're seeing coming up. That this is actually opening a new door to lunar exploration exploration with my which may actually see bigger participation of the public and perhaps even see my children or grandchildren participating in that exploration and visiting thing or even living or working on the surface space resources has gone from something that nobody was really thinking about to something. That's really becoming very exciting. King huge activists a large and growing to unity with science engineering technology industry academia business or of coming together to really take something extraordinary curiosity to venture out into the unknown and the opportunity to bring back knowledge and capabilities. Only possible. By exploring going out there will be the place we learn how we can use. Local resources needs to a lot of research suspecting technology station if you extrapolate far enough if in the future we have to get beyond the limit of our planet. This is the century that we can start. Putting industry often your agape beatty Zayn enables an open architecture pictured enables to introduce reusability particularly human lender if we plan on having sustained operations building up an infrastructure to support these things so landing pads berms habitats while building a new space colony resources of the key for that space economy so we really need to focus on that. How do we try to the move from the twentieth century institutions and goals and frameworks to twenty-first-century vision for what worked best for humanity and space is such an important answer to that question it can support the investment in its from a public perspective for commercial services into space resources but most importantly to seven astronauts on the Moon in sustainable stangl expiration create a new space resource research center in Luxembourg? There will be an initial budget to do so for about five million euros with Nina twenty eighty seven we are hoping to successfully produce officer on the moon for the first time turned a lunar regularly stimulant into metal by pulling oxygen out. That's pretty awesome on that. On the space people are participating now you have the mining the oil and gas industry investors seem the level of excitement. This week was just incredible that moment moment right to do big bold and exciting and in that report for Mesa TV we heard from Acer prospect like project manager. Richard Kelly Acer prospect project. Scientists Elliott Sifter Nash Prospect Project Manager Fully Not Andrea Zamboni proceed system engineers enabled Leonardo Christian Panza Leonida Project Engineering Manager Andrea risk. Ernie Leonardo software engineer betrays a Bologna as well as James Carpenter. David David Packer and Bernard Health back from Asia. Philip mets get from the University of Central Florida Gerald Sanders from Nassar Clive. Neil from the University of Nature Dame now originated from the Dubai. Future Foundation battalions link from the Luxembourg Space Agency. Assange it from the Open University and Angel Madrid from the Colorado School of minds and Tom for brief. Look at some of the other stories making decent size this week. The science report and you study claims. The ancestral home line of every human alive today is in the Southern African countries of Botswana Namibia and Zimbabwe Lake south of the Zambezi river scientists from the University of Sydney the University of New South Wales. Who led the study say while research has shown that Hamas sapiens originated around two hundred thousand years ago exactly where they originated from has remained a mystery until now the report of the Journal? Nature claims were such as pinpointed. The first plus humans cord By looking at the genetic code of Maddock Andrea sells energy factories from a thousand living seven Africans Satan mud country. DNA inherited down the maternal line and so alas tracking the DNA data was then combined with Linguistic Cultural Historical Geographic and ocu- logical data to establish that trajectory back in time. Nine revealing. The humans most likely emerged from the Mikati Cardi Vago Petiot Whitland of Southern Africa. It's an inhospitable place. Nowadays dominated by design in salt pans one sent to an enormous lake twice the size of modern Lake Victoria but roughly two hundred thousand years ago. The lake began to break up. Creating the vast wetland you all say. The earliest time of safety apparel thrived in the area facility thousand years before they ventured out of homeland reconstructing in climate conditions the authors provided evidence that climate change opened up other areas of Africa eventually leading to mankind's domination of every corner of the planet. Aw Any studies found that climate change in just warming in the Western Pacific since the late nineteen seventies shifted on Lino events the stub their instead of the usual starting spot in the eastern Pacific. The findings reported in the Journal. The proceedings the National Academy of Sciences also confirmed that this change is causing more frequent extremely menu events. Scientists discovered a developing pattern among thirty three on the NEO events that occurred between nineteen won twenty seventeen. They're also found that four. Four of the five extremely Nino events happened after nine hundred seventy and suggests that further warming of the Western Pacific is likely to trigger more extreme events in the future. Now let's bad news. Events caused serious shifts in weather patterns across the globe including storms and floods in the Americas and droughts wildfires. Australia rally. A- Google claims it Sycamore. Quantum computers just perform the calculation that even the most powerful conventional supercomputers can't reproduce juice. It claims Sycamore achieved. What's called quantum supremacy by completing a complex computation? In two hundred seconds that would have taken the most powerful conventional supercomputer some some ten thousand years to finish the book by Scientists University of California. Santa Barbara Sycamore completed the task by using chip consisting of fifty three cubits the quantum quantum version of the bits fan. In every day computers ordinary computers perform calculations using bits of information which like on and off switches can exist in any two states which are the one or zero but quantum computers use quantum bits cubits which can exist either as one or zero or is both one end zero simultaneously so a pair of bits can store just one of four possible combinations of states zero zero zero one one zero one at any given time that a pair of keep its can install all four combinations simultaneously pickers h it represents both values zero and one at the same time and if you had more cubits your quantum computer grows exponentially potentially so three cubits still a combinations four cubits console sixteen and so on we've fifty three cubits. Sycamore can store some hundred and fifty three valued his own more than ten quadrille in combinations and with things like quantum entanglement Albert Einstein's famous spooky action at a distance if the cubits in the quantum computer aaron tangled tangled which they They can all be measured simultaneously and you study is found relocating. Koalas out of other populated areas has improved the chances chances of survival the findings reported in the Journal Wildlife Research looked at the health and survival of thirty six Koalas who had been relocated from Cape Artois in southern Victoria Korea to an area of the great outweigh National Pioneer Anglesey. They found that while the relocated Koalas initially lost somebody condition. They regained it within four to five months and ended up better off than Wallace left in place to compete for the valuable habitat. The researchers say their results give support for relocation is a management strategy to reduce the density of sites wherever browsing concern a report by the Food Check Permission Council ones that survey is confirmed him that more than twenty percent of Australians admit that they don't always wash their hands after guarantee toilet presenting the findings the court claiming hodgin conference in Sydney research has also warned that the public authors could be even greater as nearly forty percent of respondents admit. They didn't always wash their hands. Before touching food. The supermarket chain alley has been added to the inglorious list of nominees for the Australian skeptics. Two Thousand Nineteen Bent Spoon Award named in honor of Yeary Giller and his claim to be at a bend spoons with only the power of his mind. The Bent Spoon Award is presented annually to the perpetrator of the most preposterous pace of paranormal pseudoscientific. Perfect piffle for the year past winners to be condemned. forevermore include the University of Woolen Gong. Forgiving a doctor to a student who submitted an anti vaccination pitch stay faces and the Southern Cross University for offering a degree course in nature apathy sadly the tax payer funded Australian Broadcasting Corporation the ABC. He has the dubious distinction of winning the bent spoon the most amount of times with three awards under its spilt including one for the scientific show psychic investigators another another for their program second opinion which was nothing more than an critical presentation of many forms of quackery and a third for the new inventors program which broadcast the blatant pseudo science of the anti bio water conditioning system. That's a rebellion of your hard earned tax payer dollar's at work there Australia be proud. Money obviously will spread head and surprise surprise the ABC has two nominations for this award has does the Special Broadcasting Service which is also partly tax payer funded the other nominees include university good price pharmacy. The University of Newcastle University of Technology Sydney pay to the rainmaker and even Prime Minister Scott Morrison Mendham from Strand skeptics alley were added to the twenty nine nominations list. WHO's selling AAC handles a product with no no medical benefits and nine to be potentially dangerous? I'll be joined. I unless fraternity of people who are very worried the same instrument college of the University of Michigan. Hell after the universe. DOES HE WANNA go to the ABC. How range of people have been through Nicholas goes to the perpetrator the most preposterous to see signs of the paranormal? which is terrible for microphones and every every year we issue when we go through a whole lot of nations for some person or group that has done some particularly outrageous shooter scientific in data and all right so what what I e candles cancer objects that at some sites were being sold in the Strand Kenneth Sexy which is very depressing by a little packets? Looked like candles. You basically fleet. Stick them in your ear and you light one end. And that's supposed to draw wax out of U. E.. Okay the trouble he's usually whacks with Drip Damn candle into you and then I started putting on this little sort of sleeve around it which is to draw Stop Wax Flowing. But I've seen people and put people to challenge. They say we're big proponents of candles. And I said I showed me how it works like Shanghai where it makes it is going up annoying side. It's just sort of gooby wax typical stuff. You get out of your ear. Because like I say like I go into the game. But don't put it in your your burn and burn and then comes up and there's executive sign amount of whacks so basically the wax you getting out of the candle burning is nothing new. It's from the cancel itself but the trump say dangerous as well so that work is stupid and dangerous so how does suppose consumer protection laws by I know what did I think basically it just comes guys. It's there one minute gone the next and it's all over before consumer phase can actually do anything about it pretty much so he pretty much sort of thing that you see if you say malady is GonNa get in the next week and you go. Oh I should have bought that at a time. Not The candles that up something else perhaps. So yeah that would prevalent team chemists number of years ago ten years ago we had a big campaign Mymenshingh Canvas for actually selling the stuff it gave it imprimature. That was that all this must be true because it was being sold in. Kansas Donovan has the same thing being sold all these because if it's chunky stuff and unfortunately unfortunately the mind but it's sort of in nomination been revenge spoons long space along with the University of Melbourne. It's the program on on the medicine. We had a panel headed by Charlie. Teo who's a neurosurgeon is also had a bit of a running with skeptics. From time to time and people come and put forward these alternative we've Cuba's some of them are just happen that totally wacky now to sort of his penalty sides. Oh yeah that's interesting and maybe we should investigate. Further trouble. Is the penalty so nice. It's it's not critical thinking involved in what they're doing all the same debate and really if anything is valid but some of more value than others apparently even though the vast majority of stuff even even with the the totality is really without any sort of real medical fan dyson at all and it's psychological acupuncture and things that are sort of going through doesn't what would the psychological I know also so different things that a thought failed therapies. Better thing put forward the trouble is this is sort of even oh having these things on. TV GIVES THEM CREIGHTON. University of you counsel is having a professor who's promoting all sorts of complementary therapies rocky. Meditation guided imagery imagery all sorts of different things. That are irritability. Naturopathy reflexologist under university courses in complementary therapies in healthcare and you're helping to pay for that achieve product I know I know I basically a piece of land line now. I've gotTA make disclaimer here. I I have worked with people who work on land line of course have worked at the. ABC The seafood most of my journalistic in broadcasting career go. What's the story? ABC trip to themselves and landline had a program that the what's that about finding is basically as a whole range of things that sort of growing crops and things the phases of the moon using things like new shopping wt cow horns and buried to produce as special brew that can use on on comic. Lotta people use those some occasional people use it in the wine industry see and they actually sell it on the basis of its dynamic background. They have nothing to show apart from anecdotal evidence that works at all. Actually but you'll find it into the organic greengross in grosses and some I've got there is a bit of a joke outside the ABC that people who work in the ABC really part of a sheltered workshop cruel but the women. We'll be an answer their annual convention. That's INOVA melded. The that's right on the first week in December and so we have a gala dinner And we announced the winners. They are the more positive awards which is supporting people doing good work and I guess you guys must therefore keep a close eye. On the Schalke's the awards brought up by Choice Magazine Consumer Phase Magazine section and sort of I was at the announcement. Just the other dayaks late this particular year. They didn't have anything particularly skeptical of interested to the escape. Take say was very much more lands to the financial services industry. What's been often in the past? I've had awards for things which have been totally see their science. And that's very much upper skeptical alley. So yeah we keep close contact with choice. Because many cases we work together on various projects and things that's from a strange skeptics. And you really really should check out all the bid spoon award past winners as well as the twenty nine thousand nine nominee dollars at the Australian skeptics website and that's the show for now he can subscribe and download space. Time is a free twice. Weekly podcast through apple podcast. STITCHER BITES DOT COM PODCAST soundcloud YouTube audio. Boom trump space time with Stewart Gary Dot com or from your favorite podcast download provide a few want more space time. Check out our blog where you'll find all the stuff we couldn't fit in the show as well as loads of images new stories videos and things on the web that I find interesting or amusing. Just go to space time with Stewart. Gary Dot Tumbler Dot Com. That's all one word in lower
Prof. James Sauls, Professor of Physics at Northwestern University
"Welcome to the site of accents. Podcast where we explore emerging ideas from signs policy economics and technology. My name is gill. Eappen we talk with woods leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation be color. A wide variety of domains. Brand new discoveries are made and new technologies are developed on a daily basis the most interested in how new ideas affect society and help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation v seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations bit researchers and leaders who low what they do a companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense dot com and displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics guests at other ideas please send up to info at scientific sense dot com and i can be reached at gil at eappen dot info mike. Yesterday's James falls of physics estimates. Today he's also co director of the center for flights and superconducting technologies at question. Jim thank you for having. Yeah thanks for doing there. So i have to want you jim before you start I was not in the mid eighty s. And it's getting school out but since then i've lost most of engineering so i ask you some basic questions on all topics today Then so i want to start with a. It's a get bill de superconductors. Make better quality celebrators and so this is from last year you say be. She'll impurities can increase the maximum accelerated field of superconducting radio frequency. Cavities in finding the huge potential savings now. So superconductors are are these things that can connect custody but regardless nova systems but what superconducting radio frequency cavities their their superconductors in the shape of a cavalier. So there you actually pull off the air or the interior of the doctor Think of it is not something elipsoid and the typical sizes will be on the order of of a a meter to half meter and some smaller material is used furby land for building suburban radio radiofrequency. Check these we call him as our f kennedy's for short Is a is a matured as a mill. Ob his niobium each elemental superconductor is It's easy to relatively easily manufacturer. She'd serve This how and shape it into geometry's you want and there's a lot of engineering that goes into designing the shape of these categories. Warn the purpose of supporting electromagnetic reaper waves inside of the cabin. And so so so you get super conduct acting phenomenon all the in the cavity superconductivity on x to So let me just say the. The the purpose of these care is is You string together. And if you put charged particles view inject charged particles electrons and protons into the cavity. The electric field of magnetic wave in the cavity can accelerate the judge portal's through the county. And what you do. Is you string many of these. These these kennedy's together. And you coordinate the direction of the electric field. That provides a force in george markle's such that they drove from cavity to county get an additional kick additional force that way you're allowed to you're able to accelerate the charged particles through through the cabinet that makes up the exhort for example the territory on harvey bar the a the r these accelerator large hadron collider in geneva the superconductor its purpose is the the it is to shield to prevent the electromagnetic field from escaping the walls of the cavity and superconductivity is is the is the physics behind find the field inside the vacuum of the solar and so the large hadron collider really big machine but he expensive so so this idea would this help I know that has been some The might years on desktop accelerators. So could you make you know. We swore versions of a particle accelerator using this in the firm nationally. Silla reiter led the design of charities accelerators for many different purposes beyond just doing fundamental physics at very large facilities like like the alleged cer the temperature on slack so their commercial uses for long used as technology for for medical studies to charged particles or radiation to mitigate tissues in some cases are there's a lot of uses for celebrators. These allow us sort of the veterans that have been conducted at a. Let's see Off that has been planned or this would be in a different commission collection. Llc in future direction for next generation for looks over from physics brisket up not down. It's a matter of Of of just how much you can accelerate particles and get them up to high enough energy so that you can explore regions of physics that haven't been explored before so the next generation round up breathe or the next generation of of the international collider will will be larger scale or on a different design in a circular than than a circular accelerators. Such as alex. See the japanese. Government is considering building a high-powered linear accelerator. Future and the firm labs will be involved in designing the cavities for that accelerate. So the union accelerators rather than the the one that be having geneva though. So how how big Watch the length of that year actually to that's being planned. Oh yeah so. I'm not the expert on the on the japanese machine but the ones lack is on. Order of cloners won't okay. So so this technology you see here that The call impurities increase the maximum excavating field. So this is this is sort of new right. So you mentioned the opium as sort of the substrate. That's being used so so. What's the mechanism few what. What impurities yes okay. So in order to Can get this correct. Gimme the flavor of what's going on here. I have to tell you how it is that you super doctors have important property beyond the fact that they can conduct electricity without jewel heating. That's and that's even not entirely the case which i'll come back to as i said earlier. The function of superconductivity is to confine the electromagnetic field inside the vacuum of the cavity. So that you can accelerate charge and the mechanism. By which superman dr do that is called the meissner effect in a in a nutshell. This and you take a mental. So she's niobium and you apply a magnetic field when at a temperature above is conducting transition just normal metal the magnetic field will drain through metal and blatantly so you just basically have a homogeneous magnetic field penetrating metal but as you cool below the nagging transition. The field insight be excluded completely and pushed out. How the superconductor man. This was discover new one thousand nine hundred thirty s meissner oxen feld and into one of the defining properties of seabra conducted. The ask yourself. How does that happen. Well in order to screen the feel what happens is a current woes on the boundary of the superconductor. An exactly balances out the external field. That would be penetrated. So in this case it would be the magnetic electric and magnetic field inside the cavity of the accelerate. Now if you push those currents too hard you make the field strengths too. High a superconductivity fails breaks down a the function of the candidate fails in your whole accelerator shuts down now. All your intend to think that you're about superconductors. Can you say that can conduct electricity now without any jewel heating. And that's true these are called persistent currents but it's only true under dc conditions if you have ac current Then they there are two types of electrons are the super conducting electrons in those that have not yet joined. The supernet can stay and those are subject to only dissipation wanted to do is minimize dissipation. And then you want to maximize the the critical current that the doctor can chief so that. That's what my colleague way. Nam gordon i worked on with. What are the conditions under which we can improve the maximum critical. Feel the are critical field. That can be sustained for the superconductor. In the thing this is called a superhero. Feel accelerator is operating righted. Its maximum limit ended up. The super heating field is when when when you have absolute castro failures Record what we found was that Surprising thing is that if you introducing curates impurities into the circus and super doctor you do decrease in critical current right on the boundary but you increase the region in which the deal can penetrate into the into the superconductor but still be confined. And and that was the that was the funding. We could increase the super heating field and therefore the map maximum accelerating he'll carry but introducing impurities graded in a gradient turned diffused into the surface of the. It's a it's a bit counter. Intuitive say impurity diffusion layers pretty can increase in the Field as a percent so the these some specific kind of impurities are. What's the process by which you would create them so they They experiments that have been done in the discovery. Was that if you don't if you you introduce nitrogen impurities into niobium enough low concentrations in this greatest form you increase increased not only the quality factor of the county How good a resume or is but also the maximum accelerated so they now have maximum accelerating heels up to i think roughly forty nine mega volts per meter still below the theoretical limit. We predict solid. They're still the opportunity for improvement hop. Who is in the milk conditions or even better kelly's and watch the The debt that You know the the system yet. I'm sorry i didn't quite get. That process happens so the broke up. I didn't hear the first part of the question. Yeah so i was wondering what temperature but you know what ambient temperature do. We have four. Well this is important question. The super niobium becomes a superconductor just below about nine kelvin degrees nine degrees above absolute zero. So that's actually a fairly high temperature for cryogenic purposes because liquid helium helium liquefied or calvin and most of the experiments are done at around two kelvin. So that's the temperature is still very low. Low the critical temperature niobium. So that is is in a very good low temperature. superconducting say. Okay my I haven't flown the field. Jim but Egypt suggest spoken tactility The much higher than If you count in spite. I thought we were sort of the hundreds of cabins. That's right we're near a high temperature. Superconductors richer more complicated compounds for example the kube racer made out of copper oxygen in other materials or or barium strontium but there are all pro skype materials in the superconductivity occurs and hopper oxygen planes those superconductors depending upon which family and exactly the processing steps are think the highest one hundred thirty or so. But they have they have other properties that are not bitter not ideal for building accelerators. Certain things like you know. How well do they conduct. Heat do they. One of the key things about niobium is is that once you kula blow at superconducting transition. An energy gap opens up that separates the basically makes it very hard to create any broken any non superconducting electrons so when the number of non superconducting electrons will be exponentially suppressed exhortation gap. There we wear on the surface was called service of mellow. That's a really key property because it gives rise to extremely low dissipation of the superconductor in. That's where the cost savings comes in. It really costs of a. These are big cryogenic facilities that have to keep an accelerator. Cool below at subaru knocking transition plans under operation at full power so so so making us candies with higher quality factors namely lower surface. Resistance is really crucial because it it reduces the cost in cryogenic cooling. Okay so so. The application here is somewhat specific to particle accelerators What discoveries accidental that You get disinterested impurity. Thanks j.j. yes. Yes my colleague. In aggress lino fermilab. They do lots of studies but the it was sort of an Zoning approach to to trying to improve the performance of the accelerator counties. They did various studies where they They had oxygen. They ended up sometimes carbon nitrogen. They did many different days and they found that under a set of processing steps were introduced concentrations of nitrogen that increase the quality factor of these cavities by by almost a factor too so they went up to quality factors of were four times the power level. Let me put that in perspective for for for your listeners. These these carries They're under operation is Cavities that they're the best manmade resonator. So you're watch he'd be time and were pendulum offline galileo's pendulum galileo's pendulum had quality factor probably ten or twenty has been put in motion four years ago and it had a quality factor of ten eleven revolting lost about twenty percent of its amplitude. Today he is risen or they're really tremendous. The only thing better are atomic clocks. You really tremendous Technology innovation yeah. yeah so so you are. You are co director of the center for applied physics and superconducting technology. So this is a collaboration between slowly lap and northwestern that's right it story with Hoover upon the experimental and technology side after the discovery of nitrogen doping in its improvement. They wanted to to see there. There could be more directed. Approach is on improving performance by by bringing in experts on on superconductivity from the materials. In theory point of view. So that's how clever ration- started was was we have a. We have a strong group. In experimental. Supergun activity in north western. We have a group in in theory super activity including myself who form glamorization fermilab our officer research in from the national solar lab seated. Dr center the yeah. It's it's a the intersection of science and physics It seems like it's a. It's a good position to be and now the flu me. That knocked baskin. Combination is a lot of fun. I never done anything like this myself. I always been theorised but then now but it's It's been a pleasure to work on problems. Now that are driven by improving technology. So so it's been very exciting. Run you talk about As part of a cps Other areas here are quantum information science medicine. So on Can you give our on. You know what are the things that you're working on those idiots yes so let me tell you a little bit about our our news. Ventures which you're in the information signs specifically quantum computing quantum sensing building detectors. They're they're extremely sensitive or detecting. Whatever dark matter for example. Yeah so one of the leading not leading technology this being this developed for building quantum computers namely computers that take advantage of of quantum mechanics and quantum logic illness. The the analog of a of a bit in classical school computers called keep it. The physical realization of janette is is an electrical circuit and involved in a superconducting circuit devolving. He's like a capacitor. In doctors but in particular special device do superconductivity call the justice in tunnel junction. And they these devices were you when you cool him down below the conducting transition. They behave like atoms energy levels. Just like an animal you can. Excite address knows Lows states of the quantum circuit with microwave. Photons that's where the resonator come in nature become the devices by which you can communicate with your ads in this case your your era your quantum circuits right so superconductors player. We'll both in store in quantum information in the form of states of these gene. Betsy superconducting cubits. My colleague at northwestern ins was the co-developer developer of the of the cubit called trans mind. That is used worldwide. It's used by google. Ibm the group is everywhere. And it is exactly what i said. It's a an elementary circuit superconductors and the device color justice intel junction. Yeah i know that google demonstrators something. Recently i ibm demonstrate at something some quantum computing capabilities The the issue. I don't know much about him. But you said the issue is practical perspective comic cubits you can get right into a system and how stable they are and so on. Are those the issues. Those are the key issues There's there's a scale of how many how many cue that you can Bill into your into your machine that can also perform a logic operations and the ability to be able to To produce to set gates into out the google machine that announced the the achievements of quantum supremacy tober. Last year that was headed by joan martinez now at university of california barbara and nourishing fifty three of these trans mind cubits but superman but quantum computers gain advantage exponentially as you scale number cubits so even at fifty three q debts home for a particular elroy is not particularly useful. For our point of view of practical computations outperforms the best supercomputer world some sheen oakridge and So yes they That we're right at the cusp of moving into the territory where we can build machines that can actually perform useful computations quantum logic illness so this is the resilient regime of what's called quantum advantage so we're may be able to. In within the five year period saw problems that they really could not otherwise saw even for computers. one would be number of cubic shape. Need jim to say became sort of practical machine. We're shouldn't recenter for superconducting materials and systems. Which is our mission our goal. Our mission is bill beyond state of the art. One computer outperforms. Simple the sycamore machine. So it In our new center for superconducting quantum materials in insistence. our mission is to build a next generation quantum computer in the five year timeframe that will outperform the current state of the art and move us into the region of quantum advantage. So We're we're Collaborating with righetti computing in berkeley from national accelerator lab but here in chicago and northwestern and aims with a number of other partners in the center we have we have twenty institutional partners and eighty science investigators. And it's a abroad program from material science to to To to manufacturing and scaling up build a device you build a machine and that's where the expertise for building large technology programs at fermilab is really really essential for this righetti. Computing is really essential because they have all they have the fabrication facilities in the know how to do do A full scale. Quantum built quantum computers and northwestern and aims have the material science background to improve the performance of the of the cubits for the for the next generation and our our mission has really been to attack the problem of what we call coherence namely the timescale. On which a cubit can actually perform useful logic operations so that time scale is really The frontier tackling and we're really aiming getting a tenfold improvement in coherence times for cubits and also in designing new Different geometry's on architectures for for for machines so we have That is our approach and we were projecting that we can build a machine and a five year timeframe that operates with one hundred hundred fifty cubits with higher performance and This will move into the regime for actually doing computational useful calculations on using quantum logic. That's exciting so as you mentioned the performance capabilities sort of increased exponentially somsak attitude dimensions. One is the number of cubes and other sort of the By thome would be sort of latency. Decoders carl how long can actually hold. Yes that's right so we want to improve the timescale in which The coherence time on which we can actually perform computations with with with our with these cubits so tenfold increase would would translate into a increase in computational power and so this collaboration than jin it is actually going to create something. That is practical. It's like physical machine that can be little doubt the those types of performance guy ballistics. Yes and we're gonna make it. We're gonna make it available to the wider community. Take take use of it and and and program and and do do calculations on it. That's our goal. Who gets the kookiness. The fastest supercomputer. Today's vagina that. I don't know who's the fastest and it's it's hard to get actually precise information on that So we're The the there are new and there are different architectures for building. Quantum computers of those the one i think you're referring to is based on on ion traps and that That technology i'm not really familiar with their advantages and disadvantages to using different technologies. And we're we're really laser focused on using superconductors in quantum circuits because we can engineer them. That's one of the real key. Advantages is that we can design our circuits. We can manufacture. Chips are we can build them into three dimensional architectures using using three d. s. r f. Cavities one fifty two bits and former improvement in Higgins kind lines talking about many many offers of employment from adventure computing. Yes we are. We're talking about doing computations. That really can't be achieved on on current current supercomputers using classical machines. So that's the that's the region which i termed quantum advantage so we have a have a group in in our center who are really experts nist. They're they're they're much more oriented towards developing algorithms and computational codes that can take advantage of a specific architecture so that's a whole thrust area of our center at involves involves Mathematicians and In in computational experts at nasa ames and at fermilab and in a few of a smaller partners who are real experts in this particular area it is golden harvest side of it and then there's a whole software. That's right that's right and we have. We have both in. We have real experts in both areas. My own area is more on the hardware side and and and on the material side but also in the area of Thinking about how one can use these devices for for For doing fundamental physics because that's a major mission at for me national accelerator lab. Is there accelerator lab to pro big questions about. What's the nature of our universe. What's the nature of matter. So so one driver in our center is is is. How do we take advantage of of quantum technologies according to device technologies in order to build better detectors for rare events. Such as you know the passage of of dark matter through Through a particular apparatus so That's one of our other. Drivers is doing fundamental physics with a new technologies isn't quick question on quantum computing side against. It's feel like sort of a massively padded processed machine or its going to behave differently. Well that's the quantum advantage that that you get from using cubits is that essentially you have massive parallel parallel was ation in the coupling of many cubits together so A a way to think about it. Is that if you have a single classical bit It it it's either a one or a zero But the ah quantum bit can be super position of the one in zero so So if you can do one one computational operation on a bit you can do to computational operations on cubit now if you can couple say to cubits together that gives you four possible operations you can do with two cubits and two with a two classical bits so by the time you if you get three cubits and you can couple them together to do a computations entangle them then you can do eight computations and you can see it goes exponentially with the number of cubans so by the time you're fifty three cubits you have. You have a lot of computational advantage because it goes to the power in so long as you can maintain the superposition and tangle mental of your cubits so those are the challenges but any kind of the coding expertise translate from conventional compute. Any adoptable algorithms mathematics. That's going to be different but the plan states some conventional computed on. Now this is. This is a real frontier area and We don't have the same kind of body of codes that will take advantage of of The architecture of quantum machines so the whole area of algorithm development is a really important one. And it's it's one of the really growth fields here is once we have these machines. How are we going to Make use of them so so New codes have to be written and have to be written to the specific architecture of the machine. And it's sometimes difficult to look to into the future but wendy become sort of prevalent in the economy. David supersede completely confidential computing if the cost of manufacturing is not substantially different. Wouldn't it make conventional obselete. I'm not sure about that because the For many for many of our The things that we do Classical computers are quite good so we may be able to set up and provide data to a a a quantum computer using classical computers to interface to them so Once we have the data from computation than we can analyze it with class computer. So i'd i don't see that. Classical computers are going to be disappearing in the in the future. We're and we're not going to be carrying around our iphones with a quantum computer in them. And that's right. Anybody wants to predict the future. You do it at your own. Risk doesn't consensually feel like clean processing and post processing Done by gun venture computing at and really the heart of that the heavy Number crunching done by clinton's compute. Feel like that. Well that's the way i envisioned it. At least that's that's the way it looks to me. But you know time will tell. I want to get into one. Other people titled take a dip into the veered woodham world of quantum Okay quad so so. What is quantum liquid so there My areas particularly in the area of of Of helium so helium is You know the pre the simplest of the inert gas atoms slightness it. It's a really special the whole set of inert gas atoms have closed electron shells. And so there's virtually little chemistry involved at all and helium in. It's the only substance that we have the only material we have. That remains liquid down to the absolute zero of temperature. So on their remarkable as you. Cool Helium down there to their two isotopes of helium as well. The common garden variety isotope is called helium. Four it has atomic number four because the nucleus made out of two protons and two neutrons and bound around the atom is two electrons so this this atom in its ground state is really quite inert. It has an it has zero electric nuclear spin so in the in the context of particle types It's it's a bose on it obeys What are called boasts statistics whereas the light isotope of helium is a neutron. But it's still a stable. Nucleus is a spin one half for on and so chemically they're virtually identical is just one is slightly a lighter mass than the other but but when you cool them down to low temperatures the There's a temperature called the degeneracy point where quantum mechanics takes over macroscopic -ly among all of the atoms and it's win the wave properties of an individual helium atom when the wavelength of that particle becomes larger than inter particle spacing. Then you have to take into account. They indistinguishable of these policies identical helium atoms. And that's the so called quantum regime the regime in which these these liquids behave as quantum liquids with radically different properties than a classical liquid helium. Four which i said is both particle it undergoes a a transition which was predicted by einstein and nine hundred twenty five after he was reading a paper by by bose who had sent it to a Their physique and einstein got it to review and it was bose's paper on the statistics of photons which are also both particles and einstein realized that He he took it from there and he said well what if we had particles that had mass that were also bones in. He predicted that there would be a new face. Transition even for for non interacting bozon's and that was prediction of what is now called the bose einstein condensation point yes this So what are the sort of unique property so it stays liquid at radi closed soups. You know right So over the properties of this when you when you become when helium four which becomes a bose liquid below about to greece kelvin. It becomes a superfluid it will flow just just like a superconducting. A superconducting electrons can flow without resistance the liquid itself will flow without viscosity without dissipation. So you could imagine setting up the fluid flow and tori. It'll ring in In the fluid will just continue flowing indefinitely. And that's the that's the persistent current are the superfluids stated helium four so helium three also becomes a superfluid but it much much lower temperatures so about a thousandth of a degree above absolute zero so since water the applications some practical applications. Now it's It's really The helium liquids for the most part have just been the great gift to To physicist because we learn so much about the about how quantum mechanics operates in matter based on on the studies of these liquids they they are the paradigm for understanding Superconductivity superfluity a even metal physics. They were at the heart of understanding. the basic properties of metals metals themselves even at room temperature or quantum liquids. The electrons are well below the degeneracy point in they behave collectively as a as a quantum liquid in the helium liquids were in many ways Ah paradigm for understanding this behavior so suggest mechanistically as a cool this gown bennett guests to superfluid helium four. It never turns into solid so reasonable gets the superfluid state with never go much further from there. Yeah you get to if you if you go to as you approach. Absolute zero of the liquid just becomes a pure superfluid and there are no expectations basically in its ground state is motionless is is as you possibly can make it except if you put it in motion it will flow collectively without dissipation. Yeah says that you know. Tear jim that a deep understanding of a deep understanding the physics superfluids has implications for other scientific pursuits including astronomy. You'll save for instance. It started base from situations of pulsars and extensively studies that superfluids make the interiors of dense. Comebacks tarts made most neutrals neutron stars and so serve understand the properties of superfluid. You think it has implications for maybe bent on standing neutral stocks. Behave and counselors in those types of things that's in fact our current theoretical Understanding is that Neutron stars pulsars are indeed at temperatures well below these degeneracy and they become superfluids. Neutrons are spin one. Half firm aons just like the helium three atom is and they have attractive forces between them nuclear forces that that combine them up into pairs just like electron pairs superconductor just like helium three atoms and superfluid helium three so they undergo type of both condensation. It's called bcs condensation partying cooper sri for condensation and become superfluids. Below this below this transition point so we best estimates are as that The neutrons in the interior neutron stars once the temperature goes below about about ten ten to the eighth kelvin in the interior of a star. They become superfluid. So you may think that ten to the eighth kelvin is a rather high temperature but you have to compare that interior temperature with the degeneracy temperature of the matter which is about ten to the twelfth kelvin so When neutron stars are born in a in supernova events there created at extremely high temperatures may be tend to the thirteen calvin and they cool extremely rapidly by by the liberation of neutrinos from the interior of the star which which takes the energy away in cool so they cool very rapidly. They cool below ten to the tenth kelvin. Probably in a thousand years or so so most of the pulsars that We observe are really quite cold. And exactly yes you see. Also beyond the metal inciting utah jars talked about one candidate for them seeing dark matter which is approximately twenty five percent of the universe. You're saying that in the universe is that quantum state of light mascot nichols. That forms cost me superfluid so this is sort of a hypothesis. It's not my hypothesis. It's one of the proposals for what is what dark matter might be is a light mass particles it undergoes condensation to form a cosmic superfluid. So i it sounds wild wild even for my from my point of view but but One of the big open questions in physics is a way have good evidence from gravitational observations of galaxies and galaxy structure and so forth is that there's more mass than we can account for just by observing it through electromagnetic signals so we believe. There is a significant amount of mass. That is in the form of what we call dark matter. And we'd like to know what it is has something really new Is there any way in which weekly interacts with ordinary matter. Protons and electrons and so forth. Is there a weak electromagnetic coupling. So that's one of the things we're doing in our our center for superconducting quantum materials and systems as is Seeing if we can these new detectors that Developing based on superconductors with very high sensitivity can find very weak signals associated with various proposals for dark matter. So so that's one of the things that we're doing also in the senate. We're looking for other candidates like what are called the dark photon. It's a cousin of the photon. Our looking for other particles called the accion. And so that's a. That's a really exciting Scientific driver for a developing these technologies. So you don matto A superfood than the properties new properties could seek. That be. haven't been really looking for. Yes so that's a good question. I think what are the proposals that So superfluids can have defects in them. And those defects are are properties of the macroscopic. Quantum mechanical state of the superfluid and those defects are called quantum vortices so So there are and they have a a mathematical property which makes them very stable. They're they're they have top property that that is very hard that can't be undone easily. So depending upon how fast the universe is cool during the early days of its expansion. If there was such a state that formed it may have formed under the conditions of rapid quench. In which case there would be lots of top logical defects formed in this This hypothesized a cosmic superfluid. So what are the. What are the consequences of having all of these top logical defects present. How would we How would we know that they were there. What what role would they play in in cosmetology think those are still largely open questions. Yeah yeah so conclusion. One of the things that you're most excited about stuff that's happening at the st october north different areas That companies are coming together to make lampley asians but if you go to big one or two of those made you think people make the biggest sort of leaps in the next flight years. I think we're going to I think we have a very good road to producing higher. Coherence cubits and an higher performing Microwave detectors. i think those are the two areas. I i think we have the tools and we have the The expertise to really make progress on a five year time timescale. So i think we'll see next generation quantum devices with much higher performance in five years and And including the building of of a full-scale a quantum computer at fermilab right. Yeah it's exciting. This has been great. Jim thanks so much for me. I appreciate it thank you. This is a scientific sense. Podcast providing unscripted with leading academics and researchers on a variety of topics. 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Prof. Philip Mauskopf, Prof of Physics at Arizona State University
"Welcome to the site of accents. Podcast where we explore emerging ideas from signs policy economics and technology. My name is gill. Eappen we talk with woods leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation be color a wide variety of domains. Rare new discoveries are made and new technologies are developed on a daily basis the most interested in how new ideas affect society and help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation v seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations. Bit researchers leaders. Who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot com and displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics guests at other ideas please send up to info at scientific sense dot com and i can be reached at gil at eappen dot info. Mike duties purposive. Philip mouse calls who has joined appointment at arizona state university in the school of earth and space exploration and the department of physics his back now distant primarily experimental cosmology in particular deciding a good thing new types of instruments for measuring signals from the most distant objects in the numbers buckle phil. Thank you nice to be here. Thanks doing this. I want to start with. What if your people from twenty eighteen Billy bates grave. Polite to using kinetic inductions detectors for told tech. I don't know if that's pronounce that day. And beyond so before we get the details of this. What exactly is protected. Call that day. Yes sure yeah. Toll tech is. It's the name it's named after a you know a group of the native group of in mexico and it's named that because The the the what it is is it's a camera at millimeter wavelengths that we have been building for a telescope in mexico which is called the large millimeter wave telescope or l. m. t. or in in mexico. It's the grand telescope Metric or cake day at and It's it's it's the mexico has actually a really strong background. Historically in astronomy like from the Early civilization and this telescope project which was started a decade ago. Maybe actually more. Like twenty years ago was still i think. The largest scientific project in mexico was building the telescope which is a fifty meter diameter telescope on top of sierra negra which is fifteen thousand foot mountain in the middle of mexico and so totake is is a camera that we're building using the latest superconducting technology or to go onto that telescope and make measurements location-wise Obviously will get into people but Mexico because it's a near the topics evident It has elation so what what is of the primary capital states Authentication yeah well. The primary characteristics are Allocation you know for a astronomy. And i know you've had other people on who also work as i do with telescopes and other places like chile or hawaii so so basically what you want. Is you want to be as you know. As high as possible to be above the atmospheric water vapor and that's the main The main component of the atmosphere that That absorbs millimeter. Wave light so So mexico it turns out has a fairly high mountains including pico. Or it's about or. I think it's called seat loyalty pedal which is right next to serra negra mountain which and that. One is the tallest mountain in central america. It's a nineteen thousand feet or so almost and so the mountain that it's on fifteen thousand feet. So that's that's what you want. Also it's it's a good latitude so it's nineteen degrees north latitude. Which is the same pretty much the same latitude as hawaiian. It gives you good access to most of the sky. So if you're too far north you can only see the northern stars two thousand southern stars so Good good position to and The millimeter size Vive linked what this target. What what sort of the primary target. Yeah so there's there's a couple but millimeter wavelengths so it's long a thousand times longer wavelength than the light that you see with your eye the optical which is just short just smaller than a micron wavelength and and so what we're looking at is Light from either from the early universe leftover from from from the early universe which has peaks at wavelengths around one millimetre. So that's one of the things we can look at and then the other main sources of emission or might at millimeter wavelengths are on gas and dust in the universe mainly in galaxies our own galaxy. So where where. There's a lot of gas and dust is also where you have a lot of stars forming. So we're looking at star formation in our galaxy and then also in other galaxies you can look at the gas and dust with farther away. So you don't get quite the same resolution and detail that you can see in our own galaxy but but still you can measure of overall things like star formation rates. And then you can do that out to you know for for galaxies at a whole range of distances and and trace the evolution of star formation in the universe speeding sort of half a billion or so years from the from the big bangla. So what's what's the range we're looking at so you mean like For for the dust and the galaxy the automated tennis club could target lights from the early universe. So oh right yeah so the the cosmic microwave background in the light from the early universe. I was talking about which is also what other telescopes in chile like the atacama cosmology telescope or south pole south pole telescope at the south pole. Look at the cosmic. Microwave background is actually light. That comes from well. It comes to us from almost you know the very beginning of the universe. The last time This light actually scattered or interacted with other manner before it hits. Our telescope was We chart time. We talk in terms of redshift. Which is how much the universe has expanded since the light last interacted. So it's redshift about eleven hundred one thousand one hundred for example some of the most distant galaxies that we observe are at a redshift of sort of six maybe eight maybe ten sort of the most distant so it's a one hundred times. The universe is expanded one hundred times more since that light was was last sort of scattered than than any light from any Gravitationally collapsed object like galaxy. But but actually the light and that corresponds to a time about four hundred thousand years after sort of what we call the big bang. Which is you know as far back as you can go so thirteen point. Seven billion years and but that light was around from the very beginning because the cosmic microwave background light mostly comes from its left over from the The annihilation of all of the matter. Antimatter when that happened in the early universe all turned into photons. And that's the light that we see Yes so it has been kind of moving around that long at at unfolding thousand years It became clear and they could get out right so the detector on the toll tech The kyw netted stick detector. Talk a bit about the technology. Sure yeah so. This is actually something that i really enjoy it. And spend a lot of time working on the development of a technology for strana me and other things and so this is a an often. We're doing this using superconductors because This superconducting devices can give you the best sensitivity And the lowest noise so this is a superconducting detector that that works by a. It's very very simple. And in a way. It's kind of something that i invented with grad student. A type of superconducting canetti conducts detector called lumped element. Connecticut sectors. Back in two thousand five. I think it was based on an idea from caltech that was Published in nature paper in round two thousand two and the idea is that a superconducting film. So if you if you deposit a thin film of of superconducting metal and then cool it down cold enough. so it's super pacs. The the the way that it conducts so we sway their conductor. Works is that there are are free charges. That can move around in response to light. And that's why It reflects the charges kind of mimic the light and then the light reflects the light back in a supernatural. There's two kinds of these charges. There's the regular kind like you have an irregular conductor which are actually in a superconductor called quasi particles and then you have the superconducting charges and those are made up of pairs of electrons. That pair off into these things called cooper pairs and And so when does are carrying current they don't have any resistance is pretty incredible superconductors work and you can have a current without having any Any resistance any voltage associated with it and or any loss in terms of energy converting into heat but the thing is that those particles still have mass and that means that it still takes some energy to to speak to increase their velocity and so if you wanna generate a current in a superconductor you have to. You have to accelerate the the charges such up to a certain point so that they have the right velocity so that they're carrying the current and that means that there's some inertia So in other words it it takes a little bit of time. You can't just instantly accelerate them that inertia is a form of its kinetic energy. You're giving to them and that Is a form of inductions. It acts just like a an inertia. The the concept of inductive is something that is pretty tricky In general for especially for for physics students that i teach to understand but basically the idea of an inductive is that it's it's an inertia to to having a current so it's what it's what causes sort of if you want to have a current in a wire. It's what causes it to take a certain amount of time you can't instantly getting a current from zero and there's two forms of at one is the magnetic inductive. That's the normal form where you're actually. There's because there's magnetic field associated with current and there's an energy stored on your kind of having to fill up that you know put energy into the field and so that takes time in order to produce a current and the way to put the energy in the field is applying a voltage or electric field. And so this is the the normal inductions but in the case of supernatural. You also have this connecticut ducts and the thing about it is a connecticut since can be really large in in a superconducting film. Because it's related to the kinetic energy required to carry a current in a superconductor. Since there's no resistance you can carry a large current with a small number of charges. So that's that was a long physics description to get to the how the detector works which is light that comes in interacts and breaks apart. These superconducting pairs of electrons and this is similar to the way that Acc camera you know your your pixels in your camera in your phone works except that it what's happening is line is coming in into the semiconductor in creating these electron hole pairs and in the silicon detector like that it takes a certain amount of energy. There's a binding energy that you need to break those those pairs and that's about equivalent to the energy. And a single photon. But we're detecting millimeter wave photons. Which are a thousand times lower energy. Fortunately superconducting pairs of charges have a binding energy. That's approximately a thousand times smaller. Than the binding energy and the semiconductor so sue so millimeter wave photons come in and break apart these cooper pairs and superconductor and that and the problem is it doesn't change the resistance. The resistance is still zero but what it does. Change is the inductive. The inductive related to the number of cooper pairs. These pairs of electrons are carrying the current. And so if you can measure the inductions in your superconducting film. Then all you need to hold your film up to light and have light shine on it. And then measure the distance and then you're measuring. How much light is coming in. And so it's hard so the last piece is measuring inducted into the way we do. It is by patterning the film in the form of an electromagnetic resonator so we put a capacitor in parallel and then that resonates cancels out the inductive and then what we look at is the change in resonant frequency. So think of it. As kind of like we have these electromagnetic tuning forks that are ringing for a really long time because they're perfect. Superconducting resonator and. We can hear the home that it's ringing and then if we shine light on each one the tone changes a little bit and so by listening to the tone of the resonator we can tell how much light is hitting the resonator and then we can make we can pattern on a on a single for we can pattern thousands of these into resonator and design them so that each one has different tone and then we can listen to all the tone simultaneously. And then we unwrap which were listening to and traffic and measure the light and we can do that really really well. With with like very very small number of external components and so this is a really kind of revolutionary style technology 'cause detecting these long wavelength photons with low energy it has been You know is more difficult than it is to detect the optical type coat. Yeah it almost sounds slighty necessary. necessarily requirement rights. Macy fly. If i understand fell so inducted is very much like inertia in superconductor is sorta kinda dick intact terms. And you have this. Ah cooper pairs of electrons light of comes in breaks them apart and to stop to move and that that movement somewhat of a change inducted. Dwags yeah exactly so. I mean literally. Connecticut is actually the same inertia and so So it's exactly that essentially what you're doing is changing if you like the the total mass of the charges. That can carry the current. And you're doing that. By breaking apart. Cooper pairs when you break apart. The cooper pairs the those electrons. Those charges are now no longer participating in the carrying of current because they have resistant. And it's just the remaining ones that are still paired that have no resistance. And those are the ones that are carrying the current and so you're by reducing the the mass it turns out it's like you're increasing the kinetic conduct it's because Reducing the mass means. You have to have the charges. The remaining charges have to be travel faster to carry the same current so To do that means that you know the inductors is actually more before this idea. Did we not have a way to detect this low energy litter evening. No no we did. We had other ways and actually going way back. I worked with instruments You know all the way back from when. I was in graduate where we used Detectors type of detector call belong later and these are still used these detectors when i was in graduate school which was in the nineteen nineties. These were we we were. I was literally making below by hand with glue and like sticks of wood. And so we. We transitioned from making individual detectors to making a raise small as of these types of detectors in in a fabrication setting like the similar to what you use for making a c. cds. And so that was. That was a big step forward. The problem with the barometer is that at least compared to connecticut detectors. There's there's two complications. The first one is that bolama tres are difficult to make because the way they work is that they are. There are thermally isolated islands absorbers which has thermometer on it. So you absorb light and then heats up and then you know. You measure that with thermometer. And so in order to make it you have to make these arrays of these kind of delicate thermally isolated structures which usually are now made out of things like thin films of membranes of silicon nitrogen for example. And then you have to have these thermometers and then reading out that thermometers. Since the thermometers are not like giving off these tones for example They are a resistor. So you have to have a way of reading out thousands of resistors and so in order to do that. You use a whole nother technique which is a superconducting a type of current sensor called a superconducting quantum interference device or squid and that requires a whole another fabrication. It's cold in it. Requires you know. Sixteen layers fabrication or something. In the belongers. The connecticut inductors detector array is is actually a single deposition single patterning staff. at least. That's how it happened for us. Those were the early ones now. There are slightly more complicated. But still a lot simpler to fabricate one and a lot simpler to read out in large numbers with with a simple frequency division multiplexing. So so there's some advantages and it really makes it now because so now that we've been building cameras with more and more pixels and this is true in the optical in your phone but it's also true for astronomy at longer wavelengths sort of it's really important to be able to scale up and this is one of the ways that i think really helps us scale up to learn easy to manufacture i would imagine lower cost over. Also would you say these. This technology will essentially be a sort of the go-to technology going forward. I think it's clearly has been taking over in certain areas so at shorter wavelengths so in in what we would call the sub millimeter or far infrared pretty much. Most instruments now that are being proposed or are being built are using connecticut. Inductive detectors especially instruments like the one that was involved in called a blast which was balloon borne instrument that From artika that used connecticut ducats detectors and future nasa missions likely origin space telescope and the galaxy emission pro. Both being studied and those will be planned to use a connecticut duct detectors at the shorter wavelengths at millimeter wavelengths from the ground there are still a number of experiments that are using these barometers using superconducting. Thermometers and there are also instruments that are using kinetic conducts detector. So i'd say it's it's approximately fifty fifty at the moment. And and i guess it just depends on exactly what what you wanna do. There's some things that i think. People have developed that you can do with with the barometer. That are still not fully developed the canetti conductors detectors because they they are a technology that has been Proposed or is developed a little bit later on so it may be that as as things move forward more start switching over. But it's also you know it's also true that the bombers are still having a progress in their in their development and and so we'll see but i think certainly if the shorter wavelengths mostly now people are looking at connecticut. Inducted detectors is the main option. Yes so this has the new action phil. So you have designed these things for many instruments. we talked about told tackle ready. You mentioned blast. I found that a heavy interesting. Could you talk a bit about. This is an experiment of balloon based experiments in the dark. Yeah right so blast stands for a trying to get it right Balloon-borne large aperture submillimeter telescope. It's a it's an. It's a project that's been going on for about twenty years now and there have been. I think total of six balloon flights. So nasa this is a nasa funded project. Nasa has a whole program of what's called sub orbital missions and technology development and so that includes balloons so they have these giant helium balloons there the size of football field when they're fully inflated and they fly and carry up to about five or six thousand pounds up to Way out of the atmosphere up to three million bars pressure. So above ninety nine point seven percent of the atmosphere and that's about thirty five kilometers above ground so much higher than any mountain and until blast has flown on one of these balloons blast is. It's been up to a two point five meter primary mirror so this is a big telescope similar in size to the hubble and it it has a camera with the again three colors and each one of the Of the the colors has not only it has basically polarization sensitivity so it can see it can distinguish the polarization of the light and we had. We had our last flight a little over a year ago january just before the pandemic from antarctica. It was with these three arrays of connecticut ducts detectors and it after a long campaign and i have. I have this blog. That i took i. Yeah we imagine a number of times you try and And so many things have to come right of it to work right yes. It's a challenge. The just just the launching of this giant A challenging because any the wind conditions have to be just huge win sale literally the size of football fields incredibly long. it's it's somewhat fragile in its. It's pulling its trying to pull out a thousand pound thing. It's so the launches is very challenging The instrument To you know it requires cryogenic. So it's got liquid helium so you have to do. Helium fills before launch. And it's it's a lot of work it's mostly done by graduate students. So this is for nasa. This is it's a high risk activity and one of the main purposes is is training the next generation of scientists and engineers and also testing new technology. So one of the things that that was succeed go ahead. It's also cheap labor and cheap labor to be a graduate student. You know you have to you have to be able to Solder and live off of a you know a fairly low stipend but It's it. It's also really useful for testing new technologies for nasa for spaceflight. So this was one of the the main sort of tests for Connecticut inducted detectors as technology to be used on future space missions and in that it was very successful because we launched we got to float we made some observations. We measured the detector response and the response of the electron. Ix and everything was working well and so that counts as nasa says check. This technology has been tested and is now suitable to be proposed to fly on a space mission unfortunately on launch. We had an incident where there's a caller that holds the balloon when they launch it that that is released after launch and usually. That's fine but I guess one out of every between twenty and one hundred launches the collar when it falls a hits the payload who'd and that's what happened to us it. It hit the payload and then about ten hours after we arrived. We got to our altitude up to thirty five kilometers. A piece that had been damaged presumably In that Launch a piece structural piece broke and we were no longer able to point the telescope so We only got about ten or twelve hours of data instead of three weeks hoping for i would imagine. Fill out this is a very large balloon is a helium balloon. That goes all up to what heights. Yeah so about thirty five kilometers height so an airplane is flying like seven or eight kilometers. The the yes about one hundred and twenty five thousand feet I guess though about ten times you know a typical sort of tall mountain right Higher and It's not quite in space but At that at that height the sky even when the sun is up is is completely black Very little atmosphere. As i said there's is about three mil- bars it's it's a slim similar to or maybe slightly more than a slightly less than the atmospheric pressure on the surface of mars So it's a it's enough in space that you can basically do a lot of astronomy that you would normally need to be in orbit to do but you can do More cheaply from the balloon and But as i said it's it's also a riskier. I think than Than the normal launches of of satellite telecoms. So so that the mission that you've flew you got some data you see here. polarized thermal emission from interstellar dust revealing magnetic field structures in nearby giant monitor clouds of debris actually get some data from the mission that that flew up me. We did we. We scanned across We did some scans on the sky when we were still able to two point and we detected in while you can see it while we were there and since we've been working on doing more detailed map reconstruction of the of the data After the flying. So we have some sources that we've measured We've also got from a previous flight. Where we we measured some sources And magnetic fields Or polarized estimation and then inferred information about magnetic fields in star forming regions. We obviously didn't get as much data as as we wanted to. We weren't really able to To get any data on our our main science targets so so but since we prove the technology works We are currently proposing still. We had a proposal that was into nasa. That was i it was. It was very well rated. But there were a limited number of a a missions selected for the last round so we weren't selected last time we were encouraged to be apply to fly a another version Rebuilding and doing this again to do a more comprehensive survey and i think part of this is a. This was the first test of the new detector technology and a lot of other things. So we're a lot more confident that now. If we get to go ahead that will be able to fairly quickly build. You know rebuild an instrument that is even more capable and And actually get a all of the science that we were hoping to get with this flight. How much time would you typically have in a in a freight and how do you think it down. You essentially releasing the easy to bring it down. Yeah that's what they do so so in antarctica. The balloons are launched in the antarctic summer. The sun is up which provides your energy through solar panels on on the back and you point. We point our telescope away from the sun Whereas i said this guy at that altitude is is black in office. It's pretty much a perfectly black. There's very little scattering and an article in the summer. The the winds take you around at at one hundred. Twenty thousand feet wins. Take you around in a circle and so you after between ten and fourteen days you. You're balloon that you've launched comes back around to relatively close to where you launched it from an usually one time around is when most Experiments in most groups will will ask nasa who have control over the balloon and they have a commands that they can send to rip open the balloon and released the helium. and then drop the payload. So usually they'll do that when it comes around the first time we were kind of thinking. Ideally we'd like to go around two times so we get more data right so More like twenty days a data but This is what's called a long duration balloon. Flight is Between sort of ten and ten twenty or thirty days there are also ultra long. Duration balloon fights that nasa has been developing in has launched a few and these are launch not from artika but From other places like new zealand and those can stay up for up to a hundred days and that's what we're targeting for next Proposal is a slightly longer flight with a goal of like more like thirty days so that that's the plenty i remember i feel longtime ago. I don't know what the status of this use either. And i think it was google Balloon internet. i don't. I don't know what happened. Yeah no no apps mean and even there was a. There was a lab a an office here in arizona because a student of mine i think went to work there or interview there for for a google alpha alpha project about four millimeter wave internet. So they were going to have a balloons you know flying and and then have them transmit receive millimeter waves and use that as a internet method. And i think they gave up on so so if take a quick break come back. We'll talk about the ranks mission as well as your most recent paper on superconducting kennedy conductors cubits for quantum computing. Right sounds. Good thank you. This is a scientific sense. Podcast providing unscripted conversations bit leading academics and researchers on a variety of topics. If you'd like to sponsor this podcast please reach out to info at scientific sense. Dot com soviet-backed outfield We were talking about the kite. Natick inductions detectors that you design for vegas missions. Deductible told tag We talked about last Decided the mission that you are involved in a fear spirits this is as nia infrared spectral photo metric all skies So so much speech. X yes is is a bit of a different kind of instrument from the ones that We've been talking about because it's It's it's at a different wavelength range. It's near infrared. it doesn't use. Superconducting detectors uses semiconductor detectors. But what it has in common i guess. With some of the other experiments i work on. Is that one of the main goals of spheriks is to make measurements. That will really try. And tell us about the origin and evolution of the universe so understand a little bit more about fundamental parameters in In our model of cosmology so the way that it does this and And send in the title or in the name of the experiment. It's a it's an all sky survey so it's a small satellite actually. It's a very small telescope. And it's amazing what you can do with small telescopes. It's a twenty centimeter diameter telescope. But what it has is. It's covering the entire. Sky has a very very wide field of view and actually another. It's not that unlike a another telescope launched recently by nasa called The tests which is trending exo planet sky survey telescope and and that's also a relatively small telescope say compared to the hubble but it's also got a very wide field of view in the goal is to to to make observations. You know over a large number of objects in that case and similarly for spirits. Our goal is to make a map as complete a map as we make of the three dimensional distribution of galaxies in the universe. And so the way that we do that is by having this telescope wide field of view but then we actually make an image of the sky In ninety six different bands so in ninety ninety six narrow wavelength bands and from measuring the pattern of light in every point that we measure on the sky in those ninety expands Where there's a galaxy week and use the spectrum so those ninety six different wavelength measurements. We can use to actually locate the galaxy in three dimensions. We know where it is on the sky so in two dimensions but then we can measure distance or its redshift by looking at the the spectrum of light and so that's one of the main goals on one of the ones i most interested in is his this three dimensional map and if we have a three dimensional map of galaxies are then we can construct from that a three dimensional map of sort of the the matter in the universe as a whole so the gravitational mass in the universe and that includes the dark matter as well as the the stars and gas and then from that we can. We can then trace how that as a function of distance because we have this three maps which goes out pretty far in the third dimension in the distance dimension. So we can we can. We can trace the evolution of of matter and and gravitational over densities as a function of distance and as a function therefore time and that helps us to understand the evolution of the universe due to get sort of all sky survey typically. You can't on department sure that's absolutely true. And there are in fact. There are a number of other experiments and groups working on doing something similar in particularly from the ground But of course from the ground you know you have a limited view. You can only see a certain fraction of the sky from any point on the surface of the earth so so typically these surveys from the ground cover Some fraction of the sky. I mean they're getting bigger and bigger. So there's there's now optical surveys from the ground that cover at least half the sky and there's plans to cover you know similar amounts there's also other satellites that will do similar measurements. There's the satellite called euclid European lead but with collaborate or in the us that will do a measurement that's complementary to two spirits in that its using a different form of a of of emission lines to measure the distances to the galaxies and it's also measuring different types of galaxies in at different distances. So when you combine all of these ground based and satellite measurements together we really should in the next ten years Build up a really good. Three dimensional map of our universe and this is gonna tell us and so So this is a forty metric spectrum. So you be only seat normal matter here right now doc matter. Yeah that's that's right In fact we don't really have any way yet of seeing directly seeing dark matter at all and so the only way that we really know that it exists is indirectly through the gravitational interactions. That we observe This being spectra metric Survey really what that means is that it's a it's kind of like a the way to the spectrum is made is that it's in little of sort of slices or images Photo metric images but at each in each wavelength lights rather than some sort of having a different type of spectrometer that may be scans wavelength or or or split up the wavelength like with the diffraction. Grating our instrument doesn't do that. We just observe a little slices all simultaneously but at different wavelengths on the sky and then we patch them together. technology here six by six big salon sky. Something like fourteen billion factor expectation. So just this she had amount of processing data would imagine is a challenge young. Yeah so i think you mean six point six six point. Six seconds on his side is the is the size of the pixels An arc second is is One three thousand six hundred of a degree So so it's It's about one six hundred a degree by one six hundred of a degree per pixel actually not super small in terms of Pixels for optical instruments means the resolution of the hubble space telescope. This is where we have a small telescope. The resolution of the hubble space telescope is is less than better than an arc second so so we're low resolution on the sky but it's still a large number of pixels on the sky and then each pixel has as i said ninety six different wavelengths that we measure so in total it is Actually one of the issues is is storing and processing all of that data. So we have a plan for that yet and so this is the nia infrared and so it is that why that that type of solution is sufficient. yeah I mean the. The resolution resolution is sufficient for our science goals. Which are Since we're interested in measuring you know the the large scale distribution of matter in the universe We're not our. This mission is not sort of focusing in and trying to resolve. You know very fine Structures anywhere in in our galaxy. Like like you are with other instruments or or like hubble or tapes web so it's a survey instrument the near infrared is is important because It's it's it's too so first of all it contains the wavelength information that is useful for us in that we can use to to measure these These distances to these galaxies and secondly. I suppose it's complementary to ground based measurements because Covering this range of wavelengths in the infrared is not possible from the ground. There's only some narrow atmospheric windows that you can look at it in the ground so we can cover this wide range of wavelengths that is completely inaccessible to ground based telescopes. How does it work feel So then you look out in the car. You're looking back in time. And so to get the three dimensional structure of the utilize. You could look at the same distance in all directions right at my understanding it. Yeah i mean basically the way that we construct this. Three dimensional image or map of the structure is that it turns out that that there are there are lots and lots of galaxies in the universe. But there's also big gaps distances between galaxy though so any even any six point six arc second pixel on the sky most of them. You don't have a galaxy in that pixel and so they're still over one hundred million galaxies at least at a certain brightness level as you as you look to fainter and fainter galaxies you see more and more and this is what you see in like the hubble deep field for example but But we are interested in primarily the brightest galaxies the biggest galaxies And so there's like one hundred million or or a few hundred million on the sky and we'll see And that's you know maybe one every thirty or forty pixels on the sky so so we're gonna construct this map by taking the the the sources that we see and knowing where they are both in the sky which pixel they're in and how far away they are and then sort of putting that into a three-dimensional model and then using that model as a way of we. What we will see in there is Know fillon -tory structures where you have multiple galaxies. All arranged in in these in filaments will see big bubbles and holes and voids. And we'll see all of these different structures just by putting dots pinpoints in three dimensional space for every single galaxy that we observe that is brighter than a certain brightness or or or more massive than a certain mass or or that kind of thing. Yes have i. I'm sure i'm missing something. So the the new a galaxy in the pixel one the one hundred pixels each of those pixel that shows a galaxy shoeing it a different times on. How would you so. Maybe i'm not fully understanding. So then i say hit us talk of the universe using you know kind of pixels that a different time time points. How would i construct that. Yeah okay. I see what you're saying so you're in fact. This is a key feature for us because basically yeah so let me try and explain it this way. So what what you're saying is true that any galaxy that we look at. We're seeing at a certain time in the past the time in the past that we're seeing is also directly proportional to its distance away from us so So we can we can make this three dimensional map but each each spherical shell around the earth. Right is like is like a three or is like a two dimensional. You know set of galaxies At at a certain time in the past and so this is exactly what we're gonna do is we're going to analyze the data looking at each each time slice so each time slice is like a a surface of a sphere around the earth right. So we're looking at all of the galaxies. That are a certain time. We're getting light from a certain time ago. Which is the same distance. And we're gonna look at those galaxies and then see how how that changes how the pattern of the galaxies in the mass. and everything. how it changes you outwards in slices or farther time. And that's basically tracing the evolution of of matter and formation of structures in the universe throughout time so to sort of that the outcome would could be sort of a movie that right now so so we can kind of see hunting over time yet and in fact yeah in fact on the sphere x web page. I believe there are movies which are You know flying through a simulated set of galaxies. And as you fly through your flying In space really but also forwards or backwards in time depending on whether you're blind towards us the earth or you're flying away from the earth and so So exactly you could. You could make a movie and You know there's various ways to visualize you know this but this map will be telling us they'll in any sort of theoretical questions that That you might get insight to. I think checketts there. Yeah there are so as i said. We're interested in learning about the the evolution of structure in the universe and also were interested in learning about the distribution so how matter is distributed throughout the universe and one of the key. Things that sphere x is is really should be very good at and is highlighted is looking for any anomalies in the distribution of matter that they're and by anomalies. What i mean our Things where there are either big excesses of galaxies or big where you have really really few galaxies more than you would expect from kind of what's called gallician random noise. Oh so one of the things. That sphere x is really going to be looking for is evidence for something called non galaxy hannity and as i said that's deviations from randomness and non-drowsy hannity is important because if there is non it's predicted that there should be some non out sanity if you believe certain models for what happened in the very early universe and so We still don't really know that much about what happened. In the very early universe so detecting Any kind of non gase any deviations from this kind of just random pure randomness Would actually be a window into really really early universe stuff which is also related to possibly very high energy physics so that's kind of the ultimate goal it's also very challenging so we'll see how it works. I can't quite remember. But that was a feature called the data tractor or something like that That aims to be pulling in galaxies. Is that is that still Is that still true. Young there are again. I i mean. I i actually remember going to one of the first talks when i was an undergrad student at this at harvard. Because that's where some of the people who were really pioneering this kind of survey this is called a redshift survey. That's exactly what spheriks is doing. Some of the very early redshift surveys were uncovering things like the great attractor. These this is. This is nearby distribution of galaxies and places where there are concentrations of a large numbers of galaxies. Obviously been nearest concentration. Where in is is called the local group but then the great attractor is like some another nearby concentration There's there's a super super cluster in the constellation virgo. I think there's perseus has a super cluster. i i don't. I'm not super familiar with all of the nearby structures but That that's definitely exactly what we're talking about was fear exits just extending from these nearby collections of galaxies. Sort of out to not not really quite to the place. The limits of where get first galaxy forum. T-rex will will really only go out to a redshift of about one Whereas some other experiments will go. We'll go even farther James bob will be looking at to the very first galaxies out as i mentioned before to redshift up to ten or even even more but but yeah a complete math out to redshift one that would comprise no ninety more than ninety percent of the total volume of the observable universe. So so it's a lot of the the volume there sellable universe. We are still limited to fight that but I guess we can see that. The potentially extrapolate from the to to the Complete universe i mean i think i think there's a. There's the possibility that one day we might understand enough about you. Know the about cosmology especially in the very early universe to to be able to extrapolate to what what the the universe that we are not yet able to see There are also other possibilities that if there is some topologies some complicated Topologies to the universe We might actually see evidence for that in in various Things like the cosmic microwave background. If they're certain patterns there we could we could. We could perhaps figure out what the overall topology is. But it is also possible that we won't ever really be able to know what lies outside of the university. We can observe with with light and you know in our our light horizon so it takes because it takes a finite time to reach us and the universe is only a finite age than than that limits our ability to see and there was some speculation allowed sort of colliding universes that might show up. Cmv anything like that The might be might be able to get some data on well. Yeah i mean so that would also be something Potentially could give signals in this matter distribution map and it might give some some signals. There might be some sign of something like that in the sphere data. I would say it's less likely. I think it's because the cnbc is actually covering you know pretty much our entire horizon. It's probably our best bet for seeing things like that though. Spirits is is better for seeing affects that that show up for example as these non gal district non non housing effects in the distribution of matter. But i want to finish up with your recent paper Of interest for you decide of w ban. Superconducting kinetic inductors. Cubit it So there is a big race In native quantum computing universities and companies So this is a different type of cuban kite Inductive cubit right. Yes yes and and if you remember we started talking about connecticut detectors so it's basically it's using the same Physics that we're using in the detectors for astronomy so yeah and so How small businesses show. Yeah so it's As you said the the idea is kind of comes out of of the types of things that we use for astronomy detectors but but it's it's replacing so so it's a superconductor right. Still superconducting and and there are currently one of the best types of quantum computing systems. That people are working on is is superconducting quantum computing sistance. Ibm google righetti is another company. Working on amazon is working on their own. Superconducting quantum computer all of these superconducting. Quantum computers for their cubits. Which is you know. They're they're fundamental. Unit of logic from all of them are using an effect that is based on The josephson effect so josephson junctions which are tunnel junctions. Between superconductors that were first described and won the nobel prize per brian. Josephson a physicist and end so these Joseph are used. Because one of the things that you need to make accu- bet Just like a transistor or a regular bid is you need. You need to have non year behavior so you need to have some non linear already. And and that's what allows you to go sort of zero or one. St and in the case of a quantum a cubit than this non linear also able to be used and and put into state as well of your zero in one state but but these junctions are have some issues there sometimes tricky to make tricky to to to make reliably and one of the key things today is is trying to make more and more cubans so bigger and bigger arrays of of these cubits that are connected together just like you know is important to make more and more transistors in regular computers and so until google surveys and demonstration by something like fifty three cubits or something like that right. Yeah yeah they have on order. Fifty and ninety m has about the same number. Which isn't that. Many of the computing goes up exponentially with the number. So you don't have to get that many before you're able to compete or do better than a regular computer but but so the there's two things about our design That are that are different so the first thing is that we're not using any junctions instead. What we're using is a superconducting nanna wires so very thin thin wires up superconductor and these have our non linear because because of not not an effect called non linear connecticut which which we Which we've been using or or noticed When we were making our astronomy detectors and because there's no there's no junction. The thought is that they would be less sensitive to a certain type of noise that you have in this In the gap in between the superconductors in this tunnel junction and also the hope would be that they would be easier again. Just like the connecticut detectors easier to fabricate and easier to make large numbers of the other thing. that's different is. it's w band. So w manned is a wave guide. Bandit is centered around ninety gigahertz or one hundred gigahertz The cubans that. Ibm or or google or using They tend to operate in less than ten gigabytes. And so that's that's an important difference because at at ten gigahertz. One of the things that you have to do. If you want your quantum computer to work is you have to make sure that it's not upset by thermal noise so you need to cool everything really cold and you have to cool it for ten gigahertz the temperature you have to cool it to is proportional to the frequency. That you're cuban operates attend gigahertz. they're cooling their these cubans down to sort of fifteen degrees. Fifteen million degrees above absolute zero. Fifteen million kelvin. But if we can make ours work at ninety gigahertz hundred gigahertz then we only would have to cool to maybe. Two hundred million kelvin. Which still sounds pretty cold yet but it turns out that it's a lot easier to cool stuff down and in fact we. This is the temperature that we tend to operate are superconducting detector. Arrays the ones that we use on the balloon we operate those and around two hundred to three hundred million kelvin. And that and that's a lot cheaper and it requires. You can have one of these in your home. You can actually now plug into the wall and get down to two hundred fifty million kelvin in your home but if fifteen million kelvin is probably a little bit too much power too big for you to have in their in their home so so there's two ways that it could be better. It's early dates for this technology. We just we just admitted. This paper was published in applied superconductivity. But but who knows. Maybe this is the right way to go yet. it's exciting. I don't know much about this. So these q. Beds in operation at this on an entangled state the issue is that you can't really keep them in A stable states is that right. Yes so what you wanna do to to do your calculations you wanna you wanna keep your your your cubans as for as long as possible in a in a state that is is is not Say collapsed or or inter interfered with by the environment and usually the environment means Any kind of Thermal disturbance so You can you. Can you can think of a quantum system as as being this like a pure kind of System that could be entangled and you could. Have you know multiple states existing simultaneously. I guess like in. Show dinger's cat. You know your cat being alive at time. Although that's i think a bit of a stretch but that at some point the the rest of the environment the rest of the universe surrounding it destroys that Coherence is called. So what you want is you. Don't want to have coherence. And so the higher the frequency that you're cuban operates less sensitive. It is to deco from the environment. Which is why atomic cubits so there are certain types of cubans that work with with optical light and these can work at room temperature because Because the the thermal radiation you know from the room is is is much lower energy say than the the energy of the the cuban but superconducting cubits obviously have to work cold enough that your material superconducting but But they don't have to work at the frequencies in the energies that that they're using You know right now and so This is a design and a proposal to To make you bits that work at at these higher frequencies yeah. Yeah it's exciting so in conclusion. Fill it it. Seems like you have a foundational technology. superconducting kinetic intact And using it instrumentation possible uses in quantum computing subpoenaed forward fifa news. You see other applications for this platform technology. yeah do i mean for example. There is my my my old group. Where i worked Before i moved to arizona state In cardiff has a spin out that they are working on to use this technology for millimeter. Wave security scanners in this would be assive a imaging so instead of So in airports or for scanning You can see through canvas trucks and things like that. It's it's a it seems like it's very a potentially very useful right now in in the uk because of the the new brexit rules on mean they have to do a lot of this in addition There's there's other applications so earth-observing for example the millimeter wave Satellites that that look at the app in the earth's atmosphere are one of the two in With near-infrared actually are one of the two main ways that we can measure What's happening in terms of the weather. So we get information about water vapor in the atmosphere which is very useful for predicting things like rain. Which we haven't had here in arizona very much for the last year so there are a number of applications that are not in astronomy or in in quantum computing or fundamental physics as well and then there are other things too. I guess The other things that we talk about in my group are using superconducting devices or very a common now for things like searching for new fundamental particles like axioms and we're also talking about if we can possibly use superconducting devices to determine whether or not gravity is quantified by detecting gravitons. So there are a number of new and exciting areas that we're thinking of and i suppose it's nice having sort of this. This base in this technology as a springboard for ideas and our philosophy is usually that we try and think of things that would be really cool but people think now might be not possible or very difficult. I think quantum computing was something like that say ten years ago fifteen years ago and then people were working on it and now you know it's becoming a reality so i think there are other. There are other things that are going to be. Like that. And i would think from media. Site's perspective as we get a higher temperature. Superconducting materials that is going to propel this even further right. Yeah no definitely i. There's a lot of applications out there for for higher. tc materials. That's it's a very exciting time for that. As well and i know that you know there's records being broken so we also we follow those Those those developments that very keenly and I guess one of the materials that we've talked about using Is not that. High t c but it's It's one of the highest. Tc sort of standard superconductors metallic once called the magnesium diebold ride. so that's that's something that you know. is possibly going to be next and i guess the other thing though is it's also there's been developments of cryogenic technology. So so the fact is it's a lot easier now to go and buy a an instrument for not a lot of money That you can plug into the wall and will cool down something to A temperature below four degrees kelvin. Four degrees above absolute zero so So yes a high t. C is is definitely something exciting but i think there is this great potential for even using a lower critical temperature superconductors because of the crime. Yet i can see this melville they saying argh using your phone put that into freeze. Its finding a quantum computer in there just I'm not sure that the cri- will get that small but that would that would certainly be. Yeah be something worth worth paying attention to. Yes but yeah. This is great. 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